49: Waiting for the End


00:00:00   So our long international nightmare is over and you have published a new YouTube video.

00:00:05   Oh, what are you talking about? What international nightmare?

00:00:10   Well, you know, it's not a national nightmare. Everybody suffers.

00:00:13   Oh, right. The whole globe.

00:00:16   Yep. Everyone has been waiting. I actually looked, I took a look at the dates today.

00:00:21   The previous video was posted on the 11th of November, 2016. And then you followed it up on

00:00:27   on the 29th of March 2017.

00:00:30   So you got it in just under the five month mark there.

00:00:34   You're very close to that.

00:00:36   So congratulations.

00:00:39   You're back.

00:00:41   You've returned from your hiatus.

00:00:43   - Well, I published a video.

00:00:45   We can say that.

00:00:45   - Yeah, this has been a very long time though.

00:00:48   I mean, we've touched on that in previous episodes.

00:00:50   So I'm pleased to see that you got over the hump.

00:00:53   - Yes, as always, I think,

00:00:57   No one is more pleased than I am.

00:00:59   - Yeah, I mean, it's very important

00:01:02   that you're able to continue to do this.

00:01:04   That is important to you mostly.

00:01:08   It's also important to the people around you, I guess,

00:01:11   that you're able to continue doing the thing

00:01:14   that you should be doing.

00:01:16   I very much enjoyed spending some time

00:01:18   in the Reddit thread for that video.

00:01:22   There was lots of great jokes in there

00:01:24   from Cortex and Hello Internet listeners

00:01:26   about how you're a professional podcaster

00:01:28   who makes YouTube videos now.

00:01:30   It's my favorite thing.

00:01:31   - Yeah, I'm sure that is your favorite thing, Myke.

00:01:33   I can see why you would like that.

00:01:35   You'd like to change the frame of this.

00:01:37   But as always with this stuff,

00:01:40   I always like to promote the Reddit thread

00:01:42   because I feel like for things that I see on the internet,

00:01:46   I'm always aware like, oh, the conversation about the thing

00:01:49   can often be more enjoyable than the thing itself.

00:01:51   And so that's why I always like to really promote

00:01:53   that Reddit thread because I know that experience.

00:01:56   That it's like watching a thing and then joking about it

00:02:01   with a thousand anonymous strangers is a way better

00:02:04   experience than just watching the thing directly.

00:02:07   So yes, there were lots of in-jokes this time around

00:02:10   for this video, which was inevitable.

00:02:12   - My absolute favorite is what was the top comment

00:02:14   when I went to take a look, which is how somebody noticed

00:02:17   that the ad at the end of the video, you introduce it

00:02:21   by saying this episode has been brought to you by?

00:02:23   It's like, it just shows like where your brain has been

00:02:29   for the last four months,

00:02:30   which is just making podcasts and not--

00:02:32   - I disagree with that.

00:02:34   It's an episode of Grey Explains, that's what it is.

00:02:36   - That's, but you've never done that before.

00:02:38   Like I think that you're just trying to get out of this one,

00:02:41   my friend.

00:02:42   - There's prior art on that, yeah.

00:02:43   It's an episode of Grey Explains.

00:02:45   - I don't buy it.

00:02:46   I think that you 100% were just used to doing podcast ads

00:02:50   and you just put a podcast ad in at the end of the video,

00:02:52   you just were in a completely wrong mindset for it.

00:02:54   I think it's hilarious.

00:02:55   - I disagree, disagree.

00:02:57   - This episode of the YouTube podcast that I make.

00:03:00   - Yeah, exactly.

00:03:01   It makes perfect sense.

00:03:03   - How long have you been working on this video for?

00:03:05   Like how long did it actually take to put this one together?

00:03:08   - That is an interesting question.

00:03:10   Let me look at my calendar here.

00:03:13   The first draft of this video was done

00:03:16   in the beginning of February.

00:03:18   - Okay.

00:03:19   that because this is when I was in Amsterdam.

00:03:24   It's the product of a graycation this video.

00:03:27   It is totally a product of a graycation this video.

00:03:31   As regular listeners know, I do like to go away to try to do like focused on solid work

00:03:40   and I was having trouble writing and I took a graycation to go to Amsterdam and I was

00:03:46   working on something else that I thought was going to be the next video, but I was having

00:03:49   a really hard time with it and it wasn't going anywhere. And at some point in that trip,

00:03:54   I just wrote a very rough draft of the thing that would become this video, and then over

00:04:02   the next few weeks realized, "Oh, I think this is the thing that I should work on,"

00:04:05   and I stopped working on the other project and instead shifted focus to this one. So

00:04:10   that's the starting point of this.

00:04:11   If you haven't seen it, this video is about the social security number in the US and what

00:04:16   that means and where it came from and I guess, I mean I took from it, it's like why it's

00:04:21   fatally flawed as a means of identification.

00:04:25   We have something in the UK called the National Insurance Number.

00:04:30   Which is very similar but it's not used and in ours actually says, it's got printed on

00:04:34   it that it is not a form of identification.

00:04:36   So the UK kind of stuck to that as a thing as opposed to I really some of the animation

00:04:42   in this is just so good like a lot of the jokes in this one really really good.

00:04:46   So either you or your animator someone was having a good day like there was a lot of

00:04:50   really funny stuff in this one that I enjoyed a lot.

00:04:53   I think my favorite part is the caveman talking to the dinosaurs called Bruno.

00:04:59   That just really got me man.

00:05:00   Why is the dinosaur called Bruno?

00:05:02   It doesn't matter but I love it.

00:05:03   You'll have to ask the animator that was it that was his joke.

00:05:06   Oh really? I'm pleased that kind of stuff's happening though.

00:05:09   Yeah, no it's-

00:05:10   This is the collaboration. There was a lot of really good humour in this one.

00:05:13   Yeah, it's working well. I'm glad you liked it. I'm sort of frankly baffled as to why

00:05:19   anyone outside of the United States would have any interest in this video at all because

00:05:23   it's such a-

00:05:24   Oh well you see, let me tell you. Because sometimes- okay look, I love the United States

00:05:30   of America, right? I love all the people within it, I love the culture, I love the places

00:05:34   have everything. But when you live outside of the US, anytime that you can see that the

00:05:39   US has done something that's kind of silly and stupid, there is an enjoyment in that

00:05:45   to be had by people outside of the US.

00:05:47   Ah, okay. Hmm.

00:05:49   It was like, "Ah, look at your nail!" That kind of thing. And I, you know, I particularly

00:05:55   liked the eagle sound when the passport was, you know, there was like a bald eagle noise

00:06:02   Yeah, screech in the background.

00:06:04   I spent a lot of time going through sound effects of eagles trying to find just the right one for that.

00:06:07   I was like, that was a very last minute addition.

00:06:11   I think that was actually the morning of I decided to put that in.

00:06:15   It was, yeah, very last minute was that eagle sound.

00:06:18   Those kinds of things really appeal to non-Americans, I think.

00:06:21   Yeah, well, okay.

00:06:24   I guess that makes some sense then.

00:06:26   I figured this would be a video with much more narrow appeal.

00:06:30   But I'm looking through the the demographics from the live feed stuff and like why is anybody not in America watching this video?

00:06:36   I don't understand

00:06:38   Well, I mean talking about appeal. I always like to do this. It looks like it's doing very well as we record

00:06:44   It's like oh like like kind of closed closing in on

00:06:48   1.5 million views or something. It looks like it would do even by the time we're done recording. Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty surprised

00:06:54   This is that pent-up demand man, you know

00:06:57   People just waiting for that gray video hitting the bell waiting for you to come, you know hitting the bell

00:07:02   Subscribe bells you know about this. Oh, oh, right. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah bell me

00:07:07   I think is the phrase that is used on YouTube a lot now bell me bro. Tell me bro

00:07:11   This is a this is like a second level of notification for YouTube

00:07:17   Like you have to explicitly ask it to tell you about every video certain creators

00:07:21   This is part of the evolution of what does a subscriber mean? Yeah, nothing

00:07:25   Yeah, it's like yes, they transitioned subscribers into meaning nothing and so then needed to add an additional layer on top

00:07:33   Which would take over the role of what?

00:07:35   Subscribing used to mean. Yeah, which I actually don't think is the craziest of systems it it just

00:07:41   the word subscriber now

00:07:44   Means like that that word doesn't match anymore

00:07:48   And it should really just be like on Facebook. It should just be a you like this channel, right?

00:07:54   That would be more appropriate terminology for what's actually occurring.

00:07:58   That's a really good way of putting it, because that is like how Facebook works.

00:08:01   I mean, but then you have the problem that I'm sure YouTube would love,

00:08:04   where they're like, "hold people at ransom," right?

00:08:06   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:07   Only so many people saw this.

00:08:09   If you just give us a little bit of money, everyone that wanted to see it can see it.

00:08:13   Yeah, that right there is the reason why I really don't use Facebook,

00:08:17   is I just deeply resent that their business practice is based around

00:08:22   holding your audience at ransom for you.

00:08:25   Right, that's fundamentally what it is

00:08:27   and it's why I don't invest a lot of time in that platform

00:08:29   because it feels like I'm investing in my own jailer.

00:08:34   Right, it's like your own jailer

00:08:36   will make you a bigger jail cell.

00:08:38   It's like yes, but I have a more foundational problem

00:08:42   with his relationship, right?

00:08:43   I don't really wanna put more time into this.

00:08:45   - 'Cause it's like with YouTube,

00:08:47   I think the assumption is just all the system's useless,

00:08:50   which is why everybody doesn't see everything.

00:08:53   But with Facebook, it's like,

00:08:54   are they purposefully doing this?

00:08:56   Like they purposefully hold the content back

00:08:58   from all of the people that like a page

00:09:00   so that the page creator will pay

00:09:02   to kind of effectively advertise their own content

00:09:05   out to their subscribers?

00:09:06   Like, it's like this, I get that.

00:09:09   It's just like a, just such a displeasure for it

00:09:12   that I don't wanna be involved in it.

00:09:14   - Yeah, I don't mean that as an overblown metaphor.

00:09:18   It really does feel like investing in my own jailer

00:09:21   The Facebook thing it just it just feels like I am helping someone with whom I have an antagonistic relationship

00:09:28   Yeah, and even if that makes me better off, I'd rather not be involved in this

00:09:34   Alright, that's the problem there. Yeah, like I'm just as we both do better

00:09:38   I am only but giving you more and more power over me is like no

00:09:42   Thanks, Bell me everybody if you're a subscriber to the YouTube channel, so you can be notified

00:09:47   You know, don't worry. I'm not gonna flood you with notifications. No, I mean about one every six months

00:09:52   I think you can bank on turns out I did Bell you I didn't know that I had belled you but I had belled you

00:09:58   Oh, did you get the notification on your phone? Yeah

00:10:01   But I mean I was just on the your page now and I clicked the bell button and it was already it was already belled

00:10:07   So I've already been belled by me. So thank you Myke. I appreciate it anytime

00:10:11   Anytime maybe I can bell your second channel too high quality content over there

00:10:16   So you're back in style though, right? Like over a million views in like 12 hours?

00:10:22   Yeah, yeah. Again, I'm sitting here deeply surprised, because I really did expect that

00:10:29   this was going to be a kind of narrow interest video.

00:10:35   But maybe people don't know until they start it though, right?

00:10:38   Yeah, it's very possible. It could just be people are freaking out and like,

00:10:42   "Oh my god, there's a new video," and just clicking on it.

00:10:45   I'm starved for this content. It could be anything. Yeah, just like CGP Grey upload why I hate your mom. All right. Well, I mean

00:10:52   Guess I gotta do something

00:10:56   Seems like a dramatic shift in content, but okay

00:10:59   Sure, there's some sort of point to it

00:11:03   Yeah, I'll have to see in a couple of days when I get the audience retention graph

00:11:09   I'll be curious to see if that is wildly different from other videos

00:11:13   because it actually-- I wouldn't be super surprised if it is,

00:11:16   although the only thing I can say there is--

00:11:18   how to put this-- I've had a number of conversations that have convinced me of the great importance of the algorithm in terms of how

00:11:26   many subscribers see your thing. Like, it's a thing you always know, but I feel very convinced about this.

00:11:32   And that

00:11:35   I'm gonna-- I'm gonna be pretty confident that the drop-off rate isn't really dramatic because I think if it was,

00:11:41   it wouldn't be getting pushed out to my subscribers.

00:11:44   I think it would be buried very quickly by the YouTube algorithm if people were clicking and going.

00:11:48   Right, you wouldn't have hit 1.2 million views if it was about to drop off a cliff in two days.

00:11:53   Yeah.

00:11:54   Right? Is what you're saying.

00:11:55   Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

00:11:57   It never would have gotten to this point.

00:11:59   Because of some of those conversations that I've had, I was actually thinking before I uploaded this

00:12:05   that this might be the video that I upload and it just does terribly

00:12:10   like because the algorithm doesn't recommend it. So I was kind of prepared to be sitting at like

00:12:17   100 or 200 thousand views a month from now, right?

00:12:21   If the algorithm just says like, oh people are hitting it and abandoning it immediately because it's too narrow focused.

00:12:27   So I will say I am quite relieved that that seems to not be the case.

00:12:32   I do wonder if like you could be in a place where you're tricking the algorithm though.

00:12:36   Because you have so many other funnels that you push people to

00:12:41   That the algorithm thinks that it's a video people are looking for so it pumps it up anyway

00:12:46   Yeah, it might be the case if you're at YouTube don't listen to this. Yeah, don't listen YouTube

00:12:52   You don't need to adjust anything the systems working just fine. Just skip ahead just a little bit

00:12:57   Skip ahead will complain about some stuff later

00:13:00   you can listen to that but you know this part don't listen to that just assume with like your mailing list and like Twitter and

00:13:06   and the Reddit and then, you know, because your videos always end up climbing Reddit

00:13:11   a bit, I think, because you have such an active subreddit. They seem to bubble up to the front

00:13:16   page quite a lot, right?

00:13:18   Yeah, they do. They tend to do well on Reddit.

00:13:22   And that, I'm sure, pushes a lot of people into the video, which I assume inflates it

00:13:26   in the algorithm anyway.

00:13:28   Yeah, I just I don't know

00:13:31   I

00:13:33   Feel like I used to be much more on that side

00:13:37   but again, I'll just say like if I think some I

00:13:41   have been given the impression that this has something has changed in YouTube that the

00:13:47   The external factors are mattering

00:13:50   less than they may have in the past and it's much more a game of

00:13:57   seeing what the retention is very quickly. That there's like a system that tries to predict in advance

00:14:04   if this video is going to be a good video very quickly based on the initial responses.

00:14:10   With the retention though, I do wonder if that like again with the nature of the way that you make videos

00:14:15   which is different to most people that because you make so few

00:14:19   if people enjoy your content, they'll just watch it because

00:14:24   if some like let's imagine you have

00:14:27   250,000 people right then a really big fans and we'll just watch the videos because you made them

00:14:34   And because there's so few of them that like they may as well watch it all because that's what they're gonna get for a couple

00:14:40   Of months right like you assume that there is a portion of your audience that know this about you

00:14:43   Mm-hmm that maybe again that's also tricking the algorithm because that your at your initial retention figures are good

00:14:50   Because those people were just watching it anyway because I thought I was thinking to be waiting for four months

00:14:55   They may as well finish these next four minutes, you know, because otherwise what are they gonna do?

00:15:00   Yeah, I guess what you're saying here is I've trained my audience not to be picky

00:15:05   I think there's got to be a percentage of people that are that way

00:15:09   Right, then we'll just watch it because it's always gonna be an element of entertainment

00:15:14   Whether they care about the thing that it's about or not

00:15:18   Right, like I feel like I am in that place with your videos. I find them entertaining that I'll watch them

00:15:23   I don't care what they're about. It's like no, I see this one and be like

00:15:25   Social security. I mean, I don't really care about that. Oh, oh, I'll wait for the next one

00:15:31   You know, my beard will go a little bit grayer and and then I'll just get the next one

00:15:36   Do you know what I mean? Like I just see it. It's like well, I see it as entertainment

00:15:39   I'm not like waiting for CGP grade to teach me something I need. Yeah. Yeah

00:15:43   I view the videos very much in that category as well

00:15:46   It's interesting you say that though because that does relate to

00:15:49   Perhaps my the favorite kind of comment that I get is when when I do see people leave a comment saying

00:15:56   That they watched a video about a topic on which they thought that they had absolutely no interest at all and still found it interesting

00:16:04   I think I feel that way about most of your videos

00:16:07   Like a lot of the stuff that you make it's just not a thing that I'm interested in right because I think a lot of our

00:16:12   base

00:16:13   Interests are very different like I've watched your Star Trek video and I find it very interesting

00:16:18   And I I've seen like one Star Trek movie and maybe two episodes of the TV show

00:16:21   I'm not interested in Star Trek, you know, like the Lord of the Rings videos

00:16:25   I don't care about Lord of the Rings, but I've watched the videos

00:16:28   Yeah

00:16:28   Maybe maybe you have a point there and then maybe that is that is related to the kind of comment that I find most

00:16:34   Satisfying in terms of feedback and people like yeah, this thing sounded really boring

00:16:38   But it turns out that like you've you've made it interesting to to hear about a social security number

00:16:44   Yeah, an ID number in a country in which I don't reside

00:16:47   Well, I mean that that is what you do though, right?

00:16:51   Like it's why it takes so long to make the videos because you have to make them interesting

00:16:56   You could make way more if you were just like not worrying about the entertainment aspect of it

00:17:01   You know, but I think you do a really good job. Your talent is in that you're able to make these things

00:17:07   Interesting whether someone's interested in or not, but that's why they also take two months to make each one of them

00:17:12   So that's my specialty boring topics making boring topics fun. This is the next tagline

00:17:18   I'm just trying to rebrand you. Okay, like I'm getting really good at the new taglines for your channel

00:17:25   It's just like really boring stuff. That's kind of fun. It's kind of fun. Good. See to be like that. See to be great. Perfect

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00:19:05   We were talking last time about my feeling of whether my Switch video was good enough, right?

00:19:11   Mm-hmm. Like we're sitting on it honing it honing it

00:19:14   Gotta put it out there

00:19:16   And you said that you sometimes feel like that. I imagine this one then there surely was some extra pressure on you

00:19:23   Oh my god, Myke when when you were talking about that, I just I was

00:19:30   Because I thought... I just kept thinking like, we're gonna have this conversation again, you know, whenever this video goes up because...

00:19:39   I think that there's a few things going on here, but this is a video that...

00:19:46   It's fine. Like we were talking about last time in the Parade of Failures episode, how you can see like flaws in your own stuff.

00:19:57   Yeah.

00:19:58   And this is a video in which I can just see a thousand things that I would want to change.

00:20:06   It's a funny thing, but even the fact that the video is, I think the running time is something like seven minutes of me talking about stuff.

00:20:15   And that's an indication to me of like, "This video is too long."

00:20:18   Right? If I had another few weeks to work on it, I could get this down to five minutes.

00:20:23   Like this to me feels like it should be a five minute video.

00:20:27   That is quite a long video for you, right? Like if a video goes over five minutes, it tends to be a bigger topic than this

00:20:34   Yeah

00:20:35   And and this this is exactly the thing

00:20:37   It's like, you know, it is that old joke of like it takes it takes longer to write a shorter letter

00:20:41   like this is exactly the thing it takes longer to make a shorter video and

00:20:45   It's it's this one and it was also the death and dynasties video is the same thing of like they're both around seven minutes

00:20:52   which to me feels like a

00:20:55   It's good enough like you were talking with your switch video last time like it's good enough and it starts to get into the questions of

00:21:03   how long do you want to spend on this before actually getting it uploaded and

00:21:07   the death and dynasties one was an example of I wanted that one to go up relatively quickly after the rules for rulers because I

00:21:14   Felt like it was an important little follow-up and it had to be timed in a very particular way for the election

00:21:19   No, no further comment on that

00:21:22   interpret that however you wish. But I chose to upload that the day before rather than the day

00:21:28   after the election. But anyway, moving right along. And then this one is a similar thing of

00:21:33   just simply the sheer amount of time it has been since I uploaded something before, right? And

00:21:40   combine that with what I'm thinking is going to be a relatively narrow interest topic. It's like,

00:21:48   you have spent many weeks on this already, is it really worth it to maybe spend two or

00:21:56   three more weeks trying to shave down two minutes off of this video?

00:22:04   You were not, you know, you knew you were not making a magnum opus.

00:22:08   Exactly, yeah.

00:22:09   But this wasn't like a "humans did not apply", right?

00:22:12   This video wasn't, you know, intended to be a big deal.

00:22:16   Right.

00:22:17   So that's why when you were having that conversation about your Switch video,

00:22:20   like this is all that was running through my head was like,

00:22:23   I am in the middle of this exact calculation right now of

00:22:26   what point do you stop working on a thing and publish it?

00:22:31   And there's an additional difficulty here,

00:22:35   which is talking behind the scenes of how this video got produced,

00:22:38   is that it's actually the script that ended up being the thing that I'm talking about

00:22:46   was actually only made in the second half of the writing phase.

00:22:49   So, the thing that I started in Amsterdam was a video that was very narrowly focused on just the number

00:22:57   and a lot to do with the digits and like the patterns of the digits and what do all of these things mean.

00:23:03   But three weeks into working on that, I realized like this does not work as a video,

00:23:10   but I've kept pulling in all of these other things that were related to it.

00:23:14   And so, this is also a case of where I feel like I ended up with a kind of Frankenstein's monster video about

00:23:21   Is it about the card or is it about the number? Like, I feel like that's a lot less smooth than it could have otherwise been

00:23:28   Because the original video had nothing to do with the card, it was entirely the number

00:23:33   But then I kept accreting all of these things that I thought were interesting around the card or around the system

00:23:39   and ended up kept shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and cutting down to essentially nothing

00:23:45   what I had spent the first several weeks on. So it's, it's, it was an interesting process

00:23:50   and I'm relieved that it's over. I'm very relieved it's over.

00:23:54   - So when you were doing these on your own, I assume that it was easier to

00:24:01   keep working and working and refining and refining and improving.

00:24:08   because all you were doing was just making more work for yourself.

00:24:13   My assumption would be that when you're working with somebody else,

00:24:17   you may not continue to give them all the tiny, tiny, minute changes

00:24:23   because you have to keep asking somebody to do it, right?

00:24:27   Do you see where I'm going with that?

00:24:29   I know where you're going with this,

00:24:30   but the thing that I have been doing so far with the animator,

00:24:35   And there's there's another video which I started in November

00:24:39   Which hopefully will be up in a month or two

00:24:42   which has been going through the same process is

00:24:45   Basically the animations don't happen until the last possible second

00:24:53   So any real animation does not occur until I have recorded the audio that makes a lot of sense

00:25:00   All right, but there's a lot that can be done ahead of time

00:25:05   illustration rather than animation, right, I assume.

00:25:07   Yeah, so there's a lot of storyboarding that can be done and in particular there's a lot of

00:25:13   asset creation that can be done. So what I'm trying to do is

00:25:19   let the animator know like we're gonna need teachers, we're gonna need firefighters, we're gonna need an Amish guy, right?

00:25:25   We're gonna need these things. We're gonna need these things and

00:25:28   if

00:25:29   If we only end up using half of the assets that are created, that's not a terrible loss.

00:25:35   And it means that if we have more than is necessary, it helps in the animation phase later.

00:25:40   So I'd have to look at the actual calendar, but I think this was maybe ten calendar days of real, like,

00:25:48   "I have recorded the audio, go!" Like, "We're gonna animate it now."

00:25:51   Right.

00:25:52   It's somewhere around there.

00:25:55   But nonetheless,

00:25:58   The animators been working on assets since almost the very beginning when I started writing a thing

00:26:03   I'm like, I'm pretty sure we're gonna do a social security video

00:26:06   Just start drawing social security cards and we'll figure it out later

00:26:09   Did you feel like an extra pressure?

00:26:12   I don't know whether it's the audience or to the business like because there's been such a big break was there like

00:26:18   additional pressure than just the usual pressures I

00:26:25   I was trying to tell myself that there wasn't, but obviously I think there is.

00:26:31   I think there really is a feeling of...

00:26:34   Like, I can see it in the feedback that if I go dark for a while, people start assuming that I'm working on something really big.

00:26:41   That makes sense.

00:26:43   It does make sense from an audience member perspective, and

00:26:47   occasionally that has happened. There's been a bigger video after a bigger break.

00:26:51   And so I do know that there is some kind of audience inbuilt expectation for that.

00:26:58   And yeah, it does make it harder.

00:27:01   But I did very much try to ignore that.

00:27:05   And I was expecting that this video would go very much counter to the pattern.

00:27:10   Like, I was not expecting this video to do super well.

00:27:13   And so I'm...

00:27:15   Like, I'm prepared to go against that pattern to not feel like I have to have

00:27:20   big, long, amazing video that appeals to the entire audience.

00:27:24   Like I'm willing to do something that I'm risking being much smaller and doing much less well than on average.

00:27:31   So...

00:27:34   I'm able to risk going against the normal pattern, but yeah, without a doubt, I think when it gets to be a longer time between

00:27:41   videos, there is more expectation and pressure that the next video is going to be larger, but

00:27:48   It's like well, I can't change the fact that that's not always going to work

00:27:52   So I try to ignore that but in my hearts of hearts like I wish I had some

00:27:56   Three hour long video that I had released right of like look at this thing. It's amazing, right?

00:28:02   But that's that's just not the way it's gonna work out all the time. Why make that risk like why?

00:28:06   you know you say like you're okay with making the risk of

00:28:09   Choosing to do a video that might not have the broadest appeal

00:28:15   But like why would you make that risk? Why not?

00:28:19   I mean, you know as easy as it would be why not do something or make the choice to do something that has a wider appeal?

00:28:25   Like why would you settle on that and be like, okay, I'm fine to make this risk.

00:28:28   I think there's a part of me which is very happy to go against expectations as well. Like there's

00:28:36   There's a there's a part of me which is

00:28:40   Which sees a real upside in actually potentially releasing a thing that doesn't match expectations after a real big break

00:28:48   because then it's like precedent setting right like hey, CGP Grey might disappear for a couple months and

00:28:54   You're gonna get a video on a detail of a bureaucratic system that you're not involved in

00:28:59   like that like don't don't

00:29:02   It feels like it's helping out future me by not setting expectations. Yeah, this is this is a big thing for you

00:29:09   This is what you do this. I know this of you like this this idea of like

00:29:15   Trying to set the expectation that there is no expectations that are set

00:29:21   Mm-hmm, like that is the expectation you want to set is that there isn't any

00:29:26   Exactly. Perfect. That is that is nailed it. It's like it's like the only rule is there's no rules

00:29:34   Yes, exactly exactly

00:29:37   I mean, I think, again, we touched on this last time, but it's the same thing with, like,

00:29:41   expectations about what the topics my videos cover.

00:29:44   And I always feel like my videos cover things that interest me. Like, I'm making videos that interest me, that's all it is.

00:29:50   If you're seeing a pattern, that's in your mind. That's on you, right? That's not on me.

00:29:54   So yeah, I think you're right there, Myke, that there is definitely a...

00:29:59   I don't mind trying to nail home that there's no expectation with regards to schedule, or topic,

00:30:06   or video quality or whatever, right?

00:30:10   It's just like, there's just gonna be things sometimes

00:30:13   and sometimes there's not.

00:30:14   - So another new tagline for the channel.

00:30:16   - We don't need more taglines.

00:30:19   - It's like a paragraph of text

00:30:20   that sits on the banner of the image.

00:30:22   - Yeah, starts out with, okay, listen.

00:30:24   (laughing)

00:30:25   - I need to set some ground rules here.

00:30:27   You should know what you're getting into.

00:30:29   Finishes, you just bell me, bro.

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00:32:03   As the thing I want to talk to you about.

00:32:07   - Yeah.

00:32:07   - We have spoken at length

00:32:09   about one of our favorite iOS applications,

00:32:11   which is called Workflow.

00:32:12   And Workflow enables you to,

00:32:17   if you have an iOS device, to create little actions.

00:32:20   They chain together our applications, they talk to APIs.

00:32:25   It's a way for you to kind of automate

00:32:26   some stuff on your devices.

00:32:27   - Listen to your boring explanation there, Myke.

00:32:30   Do you know what Workflow allows you to do?

00:32:31   - What does it do?

00:32:32   - It allows you to use your iPad like a professional device.

00:32:37   - Yes. - It is the key tool

00:32:40   that allows you to use your iPad like a professional would.

00:32:45   That's what Workflow is.

00:32:46   Vital, irreplaceable tool. - Yes.

00:32:50   We're in a situation right now where either the best thing

00:32:53   or the worst thing has happened,

00:32:54   and there is literally no way to know

00:32:56   in which direction this is gonna go,

00:32:58   because Apple has bought the company that makes it.

00:33:01   So we are sitting right now at a crossroads

00:33:09   in which either Apple takes this application,

00:33:13   then this team to build something like Workflow

00:33:16   native to the platform.

00:33:17   Like it has hooks deep within the heart of iOS

00:33:22   and maybe macOS, or they just really like this team

00:33:26   and they're just gonna go work on something else

00:33:28   workflow which is currently available and now free so you should try it if you've never

00:33:32   played it before that will just kind of wither on the vine.

00:33:36   Well I think we can take heart in the great history of software acquisitions in the modern

00:33:44   world.

00:33:45   I think we can all agree that when a big company acquires a small company it has always been

00:33:50   for the best.

00:33:52   For the best.

00:33:55   It's like, you know, they're usually sunsetted and sunsets are nice, you know?

00:33:59   Yeah.

00:34:00   You can enjoy a sunset.

00:34:02   Yeah.

00:34:03   Yeah.

00:34:04   So what would you say?

00:34:05   80% of acquisitions, the result is the product acquired lingers for a while with software

00:34:13   updates in doubt and then eventually just dies and the team who creates it is absorbed

00:34:20   within the larger monstrosity.

00:34:22   - And then those people wait until their contract's up

00:34:26   and their shares vest and then they leave the big company

00:34:28   and start their own thing with the money that they made.

00:34:31   That tends to be how it goes.

00:34:32   - Yeah, that seems like 80% of acquisitions.

00:34:35   - Yeah.

00:34:35   So,

00:34:37   I've been going through the grieving process about this.

00:34:44   Honestly.

00:34:45   It's been a really weird week or two for me

00:34:49   because I have like, I've gone through sadness and anger and bargaining. I've been going

00:34:54   through all of this because I really like to work on iOS, right? It's a big thing for

00:35:03   me. And you nailed it in saying that like, if you want to work on iOS, you kind of have

00:35:07   to have this application because there's some stuff that you just can't do otherwise.

00:35:12   Yeah, there were two changes that made working on an iPad a real laptop replacement for a lot of people.

00:35:22   And they were split-screen multitasking and the existence of the Workflow app.

00:35:28   I think those two things together are the key that changed the way iOS and the way iPads work for a lot of people.

00:35:40   They've made it possible to replace a laptop or replace a computer for a large portion of your work.

00:35:46   Chris: And there isn't anything that replaces workflow.

00:35:50   No, there isn't another application. I mean, if it went away, the way that you would replace it is

00:35:56   by doing things slower and/or in a more cumbersome way, right? Using two or three applications in

00:36:05   strange ways to try and replace one. And it's a concern for me, and this is just something

00:36:13   that's been on my mind a lot recently, about not being in control of things that you rely

00:36:18   on. I mean, there's a huge one for you, which is YouTube. We spoke about this so many times,

00:36:26   I mean, and there's been all these stories recently of big companies pulling out of YouTube

00:36:31   bad buys and stuff like that. And it's like well that's that's a huge thing

00:36:35   right like you have absolutely no control over that part of your business

00:36:38   and then it just comes down all the way to these little tools that

00:36:43   enable us to format markdown in such a way that it can be easily emailed.

00:36:49   These are things that we rely on that we can't control. I mean we were talking

00:36:53   about Trello. You know Trello has been bought recently. I mean Trello is an app

00:36:58   that we both use a lot for specific things, but that might go away.

00:37:02   And I'm kind of in this like, am I going off the grid here?

00:37:06   Is that what I'm doing?

00:37:07   Like, do I need to live off my own land?

00:37:09   Like, where are we going with this?

00:37:11   Yeah, I mean, this is always the problem, right?

00:37:16   That you rely on things and they become vital, and then you realise that you are open to

00:37:22   a certain kind of vulnerability, right?

00:37:25   This is this is actually just what we were talking about with Facebook earlier, right?

00:37:29   Like you achieve a lot of success on Facebook

00:37:32   but then suddenly you're actually quite vulnerable to Facebook and the way things happen and it can be the same way with

00:37:38   tools like and what tools do you invest your time and energy and effort into and then

00:37:46   once you've done that you become at the mercy of the producers of those tools and

00:37:54   And I just think like the workflow acquisition is particularly concerning because it is this glue that works with a whole bunch of other tools.

00:38:08   Like it is a meta tool that makes all the other tools more useful.

00:38:14   And I think that is part of the reason why it is, I would say, extremely concerning that it has been required.

00:38:22   Well, the other part is who they were bought by makes it even worse because they were bought

00:38:28   by a company that won't let anybody talk about anything.

00:38:31   If Google bought workflow, there probably would have been a post on the workflow blog

00:38:36   at least trying to give us some false hope.

00:38:38   Mm-hmm, right, yeah.

00:38:40   But with Apple, it's like nothing.

00:38:43   Yeah, I mean, speaking of relying on tools, there's also a meta conversation around this

00:38:51   that is about relying on Apple and the things that Apple produces just in general as like

00:38:57   the most foundational level of the tools that you rely upon, right? Workflows up here at

00:39:05   the top, right, but at the bottom is like I need to buy a piece of aluminum and glass

00:39:10   that I'm going to work on, right, in some form or another from some company and being

00:39:16   invested in the Apple ecosystem is that kind of thing.

00:39:19   Let's put a pin in that for a moment.

00:39:23   Because I have lots of thoughts about that too, and I'm sure you do, but I don't want

00:39:28   to go down that rabbit hole yet.

00:39:30   BRIAN: No, we could go down that, but it's so wide and inviting, Myke, this rabbit hole.

00:39:34   MATT: So let's just, I mean, we'll just mark it on the map and we can come back to that

00:39:38   rabbit hole later.

00:39:39   BRIAN and MATT We'll return to that later.

00:39:40   MATT I've been thinking about this idea of reliance on things we can't control, and I

00:39:46   have a question for you, right?

00:39:48   I've tried to boil this down into a question.

00:39:50   Is it better to just use simple tools

00:39:54   or to take advantage of complex ones

00:39:57   which allow you to build more productive systems

00:40:01   with the risk of potentially losing them?

00:40:03   So like, if we stuck to just really basic tools,

00:40:08   it's more easily replaceable.

00:40:11   Like if everything that we do is just basic spreadsheets,

00:40:15   basic text, you can put them anywhere.

00:40:18   But when you start using automation systems,

00:40:21   Zapier and IFTTT and Workflow,

00:40:24   to create more robust and powerful systems,

00:40:29   you open yourself up to the danger

00:40:31   of these things going away.

00:40:32   So is it better, it's like,

00:40:34   is it better to have loved and lost

00:40:36   and never to have loved at all?

00:40:38   That's basically the question that I'm asking.

00:40:40   - I don't know, I feel like you're asking a question

00:40:43   about how civilization works here

00:40:45   without realizing. - Yeah, I think so.

00:40:46   - It's like, look, as we progress in civilization,

00:40:50   you keep using more and more complex tools

00:40:53   upon which you rely fantastically more

00:40:56   and you have no control over.

00:40:57   - Like what if electricity went away?

00:40:59   - Right, but you see it like,

00:41:00   this is actually like the meta question here,

00:41:02   is like we're moving up the stack

00:41:05   of technological development.

00:41:07   It's like, do you know what you rely on?

00:41:09   Logistic chains, right, in the world to bring you food,

00:41:12   otherwise you starve to death.

00:41:14   But we can, I think it is possible to boil it down

00:41:16   to like this discussion we've been having

00:41:18   for weeks about automation.

00:41:19   We don't have to do that stuff, we just want to

00:41:23   because we enjoy it and it makes our working lives

00:41:26   a little bit more pleasant.

00:41:27   But we were doing all of the things

00:41:30   that we were doing before and if we just keep doing them,

00:41:32   it's easier to replace them

00:41:34   because we're used to just doing them that way.

00:41:37   But once you start building these complex systems,

00:41:39   you end up with more ways that they can break.

00:41:41   I think this is very context dependent, right?

00:41:46   And it's like, you know, it's like that quote like,

00:41:50   "Things should be as simple as possible but no simpler."

00:41:54   Right, which is like, oh, great, helpful, thank you.

00:41:56   I feel that way about the tools, like, I generally prefer

00:41:59   simpler tools over complex tools.

00:42:03   Like, for example, in terms of, um,

00:42:06   just thinking of, like, my writing environment.

00:42:10   This is a case where I have for...

00:42:13   I mean, for all of my writing life now,

00:42:16   greatly preferred the option where I can have a bunch of text files in Dropbox

00:42:21   and they will sync with whatever program I'm using to do my text editing.

00:42:27   And that always to me feels like this is what I want.

00:42:30   I don't want to end up getting caught up and held hostage to

00:42:35   the ecosystem of one app for writing.

00:42:39   because the writing is so foundationally important that I need to be able to switch my tools if something happens.

00:42:47   And this is a thing that has paid off tremendously.

00:42:50   Like the number of times I have switched Dropbox-enabled Markdown editors is large,

00:42:57   often because they just stop being developed, or there's a change in a feature that bothers me and then I can switch to something else.

00:43:05   So that's a case where it's like, yes, for something that's super important, I do prefer to try to keep it

00:43:11   simple and also

00:43:14   swappable. And it's why, for example, like,

00:43:17   I played around with Scrivener on iOS as a writing environment.

00:43:22   It's a good app. Like, I can, you know, it seems like it's a great way to write.

00:43:27   I know a lot of people really like it, but there's something about

00:43:30   being really

00:43:33   and locked into their system, which I don't like being on the other side of that equation.

00:43:38   Like, oh, now I am dependent on Scrivener. I am not using them as a tool to get a thing done.

00:43:47   But that is not always a possibility. Like, for example, there's no version of, I have a bunch of text files

00:43:54   and I'm just using a writing editing app for animation, right? Or video production.

00:44:01   Like at some point you have to just say, "I'm going to pick a complex tool and I'm going

00:44:06   to learn and invest a whole bunch of time in it," and end up being kind of held hostage

00:44:11   to that tool because there's simply no other option at certain levels of complexity.

00:44:17   Final Cut is a good example of that, right?

00:44:19   Is the perfect example of it.

00:44:21   The previous version of Final Cut, everybody learned, professionals were using, and then

00:44:25   Apple burned it down to the ground and rebuilt it, and it was completely different, and it

00:44:29   was missing a lot of functions and it made people really upset.

00:44:33   Which was coincidentally the exact time that I transitioned to Final Cut.

00:44:38   Because Final Cut became useful to somebody that didn't know how to use it already.

00:44:42   Yeah, I remember that very well.

00:44:44   I was using iMovie before then and then I heard all these things, like all these people

00:44:48   are complaining that Final Cut was totally redone and made simpler and they hate it and

00:44:51   they're like, "Ooh, that sounds great!

00:44:52   That sounds like the perfect time to transition, do a better tool."

00:44:57   It's like, you know, fast forward several years and it's like I have mad Final Cut skills that I am

00:45:04   reluctant to give up, right, to switch over to something like Adobe Premiere Pro.

00:45:10   But now it's like I'm also held hostage to the development pace and tools of Final Cut.

00:45:18   But like I said, I think at a certain level of complexity it's just totally

00:45:22   is totally unavoidable.

00:45:23   Or even if we move away from software, like with the YouTube thing,

00:45:27   there is a level of

00:45:30   held hostage-ness that is simply unavoidable.

00:45:33   Like if you want to make videos that are seen by a bunch of people,

00:45:39   there is only one option.

00:45:41   Like you're going to put those videos up on YouTube.

00:45:46   That is the unambiguous, only serious contender today

00:45:51   for doing that kind of thing. And so it's like, well, you're going to have to use that tool.

00:45:56   You simply have no other option.

00:45:58   I've been thinking about this with people too.

00:46:03   Like when you hire someone, I've been thinking about this a lot recently,

00:46:09   you start to build systems with them, right?

00:46:14   Now if that person leaves, you have to start over again. Like you're back to doing it.

00:46:20   the system goes away.

00:46:23   And what do you think about that when you're thinking about your assistant or your animator?

00:46:30   You have been working with these people, especially your assistant, for a long time.

00:46:34   If they went away, you would have to take all that back again.

00:46:41   That would not be a fun time.

00:46:42   No.

00:46:43   I mean, because then you have to find somebody else and then it's like you have to start

00:46:46   over with them and train them and then realize that your assistant was doing things and you

00:46:49   don't know how to do them because they're better than you you know yeah it

00:46:55   definitely is the case you know I think there's this is also like a a scale

00:47:02   issue right that when when companies get very large right like like a company

00:47:08   that you worked at it's more fundamental that the people are more replaceable but

00:47:14   as you get down to smaller and smaller groups I think changing out any of the

00:47:18   individual members has more and more of an impact, right? That it's like, when there's four people

00:47:25   working together, the particulars of those individuals are absolutely vital. But any

00:47:30   company that has a thousand people working together, the overall structure and process

00:47:36   has to be the thing that matters because there's some amount of turnover that is simply unavoidable

00:47:41   at every level. It just has to be built in. The individual skills just come out in the wash.

00:47:47   Exactly. So I was kind of-- I was half joking when I said I think you're asking a question about civilization here

00:47:54   but I'm really not because I think there isn't an answer to this question that is separable from

00:48:00   what level of complexity are you working at? And at certain levels of complexity there is just

00:48:08   there is just a single solution of the way to do this. Like if you have three people working together

00:48:16   there's no way to make those people not vitally important and quickly replaceable, right?

00:48:22   And if you have a thousand people working together, it's almost impossible to have one individual

00:48:27   who is absolutely irreplaceable in that system. Like it's just, I think it's just that like it falls out of the nature of

00:48:35   the thing and that applies to people, it applies to companies, it applies to the tools and tasks in your life, and it applies to

00:48:44   as a whole.

00:48:45   Yeah, but I don't...

00:48:48   I know you want to feel like you have a choice here, Myke,

00:48:51   but I really don't think you do, I guess is what I'm trying to get at.

00:48:54   Right?

00:48:55   I just, I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I can't be prepared for it.

00:49:00   Fully.

00:49:02   You know, that like any of these sorts of changes,

00:49:05   like an app that I use a lot or a web service that I really use or a person,

00:49:12   that any of those things going away or changing fundamentally I

00:49:17   Can't be prepared for it. Like it's always gonna be like

00:49:21   we go back to the Stone Age and

00:49:24   We have to start civilization up again, you know, and I'm uncomfortable about that feeling

00:49:32   There's just like a bunch of things in my life right now my working life

00:49:36   Where this is starting to come to a head and it's in?

00:49:40   hiring someone and thinking about building systems and realizing how sweet a life it's

00:49:45   going to be when there's stuff I don't have to do anymore. But then thinking about what about

00:49:49   the day if I have to take them back again. Right. I got rid of these tasks. Like boomerang tasks.

00:49:56   Yeah. And then also an application that is super important for me to continue using a device that

00:50:04   that I like, at risk of going away or being changed

00:50:08   so significantly that it becomes less useful again.

00:50:13   And then moving me back to a platform

00:50:15   that I don't wanna use as much.

00:50:18   And I'm just, there are just these different strands

00:50:22   in my life where I'm like, I have no control.

00:50:26   And I don't like that.

00:50:27   - Myke's in a hard place everybody.

00:50:30   That's what's going on. - Turns out, turns out.

00:50:32   What's going on with Myke?

00:50:34   But I really do think this is like a side effect of where you are and where you are with your business.

00:50:42   That is, like, I'm here too.

00:50:46   Which is the, like, you're big enough to be working with a bunch of people, but you're not so big that you have processes that totally insulate you from the effect of those people leaving.

00:50:57   And it's like, well, that's just a side effect of having a number of people that you're working

00:51:02   with that isn't like a hundred or a thousand people that you're working with.

00:51:06   I think there's no way around that.

00:51:07   But really, the people thing is, it's there.

00:51:10   It's like a thing that I'm thinking about.

00:51:11   But my biggest concern right now is workflow.

00:51:14   That is my number one concern right now, is that application.

00:51:20   And it's just like, it's also just been bouncing on some things I've also been thinking about.

00:51:24   about but I'm like as I am becoming more and more of a programmer and looking at these

00:51:31   web automation tools, these are all closed systems owned by a company that could all

00:51:38   just go away.

00:51:39   And you know I'm starting to think every one of these services that I'm using now, stuff

00:51:44   like Toggle and Zapier, I'm like please let me pay.

00:51:50   I'm only starting to bring on these services now if I can pay for them?

00:51:54   Yeah, I honestly think that is a really great criteria and I feel the exact same way.

00:52:00   It's actually a thing that I always had a little draft email to send to the workflow team that I

00:52:08   never quite got around to sending, but it was going to be an email saying, "Please turn this

00:52:12   app into a subscription service so I can pay you on a regular basis." Right?

00:52:17   And the reason is, is because if you can pay someone on a regular basis, it means they

00:52:20   have a business model, right?

00:52:22   If their business model is to receive subscription money, their incentive is to continue the

00:52:26   business going.

00:52:28   If their business model is, "We're free, just come and use us and we'll build a large user

00:52:33   base," the only thing that they can do with that ultimately is sell the company.

00:52:39   Because it's very difficult to make enough money at a company that scale in just advertising

00:52:46   unless you're like Facebook.

00:52:49   And none of these services are gonna be like a Facebook.

00:52:53   So the most likely thing is that they either sell their app

00:52:56   for $4 one time or they are free

00:53:00   and that means they're probably just gonna get bought

00:53:02   by somebody else because it's the exit.

00:53:05   - Yeah, and the $4 app is the thing that,

00:53:09   that just has a timeline on it.

00:53:10   It's like you can't outrun this fuse forever.

00:53:14   - That was my concern with Workflow

00:53:15   is that they continued to develop the app so ferociously.

00:53:20   Right, there was so much development.

00:53:23   It's like, how did my $4 that I gave you

00:53:25   two and a half years ago still pay for magic variables?

00:53:30   - Yep, yep, that was my thought as well.

00:53:33   That's why I had this little draft email in there.

00:53:35   Like, please let this be a subscription.

00:53:38   And I have definitely harassed other developers

00:53:40   about this exact same thing,

00:53:41   where if it's a tool that I deeply rely upon,

00:53:45   it's like, please turn this into a subscription service.

00:53:48   I just, I want to pay on a regular basis

00:53:52   because then I can feel like our incentives are aligned.

00:53:56   Like you provide continual value to me

00:54:00   and I provide continual value to you

00:54:02   and we're both happy.

00:54:04   Like nobody has to be nervous here.

00:54:06   But yeah, I completely agree.

00:54:07   Like services that are free,

00:54:10   I'm very cautious of investing highly in them

00:54:15   because you just know like our incentives

00:54:17   are not on the same page here,

00:54:20   or they may be related,

00:54:21   but we're not pointing in the exact same arrow.

00:54:24   - I don't really have a sense

00:54:26   for what's gonna happen to workflow.

00:54:28   I mean, the idea that Apple is going to absorb the team

00:54:33   and create their own engine, their own workflow engine

00:54:36   to better link applications together is great.

00:54:39   it falls in line with our campaign platform

00:54:41   of automation in every app.

00:54:43   - Oh yes, of course, I forgot about that.

00:54:45   - Right, so that would be amazing.

00:54:46   But it's the unknown that I don't like, you know?

00:54:52   - Yeah.

00:54:55   - 'Cause I don't know what to do.

00:54:56   Do you have a plan?

00:54:58   - I mean, look, ever since the acquisition has happened,

00:55:02   every time I open up Workflow,

00:55:03   I feel like I'm just investing in the thing that's dead.

00:55:06   - Oh, I know, right?

00:55:07   Like, I wanted to build any workflow yesterday.

00:55:09   like is there any point? This is part of my grieving process, right? Like I'm like

00:55:13   is there any point? I'm working in a deprecated language now.

00:55:17   Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like. There's a funny thing which I think some people have taken

00:55:24   the fact that Apple made the workflow app free as a positive sign. I don't feel that way at all.

00:55:30   I feel like that's their only move to minimize disgruntledness because

00:55:38   You can't complain if they take away something that's free later.

00:55:42   And it's the way for them to leave it up on the store for people who still use it.

00:55:48   It's a better sign than them removing it from sale, which is also a big possibility.

00:55:53   I mean, removing it from the store, I honestly don't think

00:55:58   that is a- that would be a realistic option for Apple to have done.

00:56:02   They've done it before.

00:56:03   I know that they have done it before, but I think they have- they have not done it

00:56:08   force like a comparable tool. Right. Like I really do think that workflow is at a different

00:56:14   level for this and so I think if they had just removed it from the store I would view that as a

00:56:20   I don't think that was a genuine option and so then the only thing to do is to make it free

00:56:26   which feels like don't complain about it later if you started using workflow and never paid for it

00:56:31   and we took it away right like that's I swear to god I would feel much better if they kept charging

00:56:37   for it, right? It's like, leave it up as five dollars.

00:56:40   Oh yeah, I mean that would have been way better, right? Because then nothing changed.

00:56:44   Yeah, right. And then I could also feel like you are not planning on burning the goodwill of the

00:56:51   people who bought your app anytime soon, right? Like that's the way that would feel. But free to

00:56:57   me feels like a stay of execution until it disappears. That's the way free feels like.

00:57:03   And yeah, it does completely change my feeling when I open up the app of like,

00:57:08   "Man, I have invested so many hours in this. I have built so many things that are so incredibly useful."

00:57:14   And I was in the middle of reworking a bunch of the workflows that I had made using magic

00:57:21   variables, which are amazing because that team is a bunch of geniuses. But it did feel like,

00:57:28   "Oh, why bother?" Right? Like, it just... I'm just waiting for the end. I'm just waiting for the end

00:57:35   now. Like, I want to be optimistic, but I'm finding it very difficult to be optimistic about the future of this.

00:57:39   You were supposed to help me.

00:57:42   What do you mean, Myke?

00:57:45   I wanted you to tell me it was all going to be okay, you know?

00:57:49   No. I mean, look, I am...

00:57:53   I am on the side that even the best case scenario is still not a scenario that I like.

00:57:58   Which is, the best case scenario is workflow stays as it is and it just becomes absorbed in part of

00:58:08   the Apple development world, but then that still means workflow, which like you said,

00:58:13   was being developed at a ferocious pace, now gets tied into some internal Apple release schedule

00:58:21   that depends on a whole bunch of other things

00:58:24   and then, you know, now it's just like, okay,

00:58:27   here is another thing that we are at the mercy of.

00:58:32   Right, this is like, going back to what I'm saying before,

00:58:35   one of the reasons I really like Workflow

00:58:37   is it feels like, oh look, here are all of the advances in iOS

00:58:41   that haven't happened in the past two years.

00:58:45   Like, there's one tool that I can point to

00:58:48   which is moving things forward continually in a useful way,

00:58:53   like, on an operating system that for iPads has not been moved forward in a useful way in two years.

00:59:00   Right? And so it's like, "Okay, you acquired this thing.

00:59:03   Is this gonna get sucked into your cycle now?" So that like whatever delays you're dealing with internally affect

00:59:10   everything on the platform? I have a hard time seeing that as like a great option.

00:59:16   Like, I really viewed Workflow as so beneficial precisely because it wasn't connected to Apple.

00:59:26   Like, it was a thing that was separate that was able to develop at a great pace in a time

00:59:33   when there has been great stagnation. So I have no comforting words for you, Myke. I'm sorry.

00:59:42   I think we should go take a visit back to that pin we put in the map maybe.

00:59:47   Oh yeah? You want to go back there?

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01:01:59   I've spent a lot of my time over the last few months being concerned and/or frustrated

01:02:07   with my ecosystem of choice.

01:02:09   And I don't really know what to do about that.

01:02:15   - I mean, look, I'm there with you.

01:02:18   I find it particularly interesting

01:02:21   because I feel like I have,

01:02:23   I've followed Apple News for a long time.

01:02:24   It's a company that I've always been very interested in.

01:02:27   And I have, in conversations,

01:02:30   almost always found myself on the side of

01:02:33   when people are down on Apple, feeling like,

01:02:35   "Ah, you're expecting too much."

01:02:37   Right, like, you know, you're expecting

01:02:39   magic unicorn stuff all the time.

01:02:42   Like, and I think you're-- it's unreasonable.

01:02:44   But I feel like in the past two years,

01:02:46   I am at the absolute nadir

01:02:50   of my feelings

01:02:53   towards this company in a way that I never

01:02:55   expected to be.

01:02:57   And...

01:02:58   It's just interesting to find myself, like,

01:03:01   switched to that

01:03:04   greatly against my will and and yeah, it's the same thing. It is deeply concerning

01:03:10   because this is the foundation upon which

01:03:13   everything else in my working life

01:03:17   rests. And I was actually trying to think this morning, I was walking around,

01:03:22   I was trying to think like, what could be more disruptive in my life than switching operating systems?

01:03:27   And I think there is literally nothing that could be more disrupting than that.

01:03:32   Like I was thinking, would moving to China and having to learn Mandarin be more disruptive

01:03:40   than switching operating systems?

01:03:42   And I'm convinced the answer is no.

01:03:45   Like that would be, moving to China would be less disruptive to my life than switching

01:03:49   operating systems.

01:03:50   Right?

01:03:51   So it's like, man, I'm really stuck here.

01:03:55   Really stuck here.

01:03:56   I think I kind of follow where you're going with that.

01:03:58   like if you moved to China it would make less of a disruption to me.

01:04:03   Exactly.

01:04:04   Than if you switch to Windows.

01:04:07   Mm-hmm.

01:04:08   Because if you switch to Windows I have to learn how to edit in Adobe Audition.

01:04:13   Yeah.

01:04:14   If you move to China we just record at a different hour.

01:04:18   Exactly.

01:04:20   I do not mean that as an overblown metaphor.

01:04:22   I mean that in a literal sense.

01:04:24   Moving to China would affect my life less than switching to Windows.

01:04:29   Right? Like, it would make some things in my life near impossible switching to Windows.

01:04:34   Like, it would cause tremendous difficulty.

01:04:36   And...

01:04:38   That's why it is so...

01:04:42   frustrating, and it-- and--

01:04:44   not even frustrating, it's like

01:04:46   deeply concerning

01:04:48   that...

01:04:51   No matter what Apple tools and products you use it feels like they have failed to

01:04:58   execute on everything for like the past

01:05:02   year and a half, right? It's it's

01:05:06   Again, I'm normally the guy who would be on the other side of this and defending and saying like oh they release stuff when it's ready

01:05:14   You know your expectations are too high

01:05:16   But it's like across the entire

01:05:20   product line,

01:05:22   it's very concerning. It's like,

01:05:24   related to this, I don't want to get into the whole thing now,

01:05:28   but a slight thing related to my working environment is I was thinking there is a space for me to have a

01:05:34   dual monitor computer setup in my working life.

01:05:38   And I was realizing like, how would I go about doing this? Like, what is the solution for "I want a really powerful computer

01:05:45   that I want to be able to attach two screens to"?

01:05:49   It's like, "Oh, I have to buy a laptop that I'm gonna leave in clamshell mode all the time and

01:05:56   I'm gonna buy these two

01:05:59   frankly super chintzy feeling monitors from LG." Like this is a comical solution to this problem.

01:06:07   It's like this is no good. Or relatedly, my wife has been using one of my iPad Pros for a while and

01:06:16   this has been the worst creeping delay because her use of

01:06:20   my smaller iPad Pro has affected my

01:06:24   distribution of where I do work, but I have been thinking for months like, "Oh, this is just a temporary thing.

01:06:31   I'm just gonna wait until the next revision of the iPads, and then I'm going to like readjust."

01:06:36   But now it's like,

01:06:38   here we are after this was expected, and it's like, "Well,

01:06:42   I've been delaying for several months about what I'm going to do with iPad Pros and

01:06:48   now

01:06:51   Now what again like it just feels like it's a bad situation

01:06:55   for

01:06:58   Everybody across all of the hardware. We're expecting there to be an iPad Pro so much in the last episode. I

01:07:05   Very confidently said that I would be making a video about the next iPad Pro

01:07:09   - Yeah. - Like within April,

01:07:11   because just by tradition, traditions that have been set

01:07:15   by Apple for many years, they tend to have a cycle

01:07:19   of their products, and the cycles shift,

01:07:21   but they tend to be relatively predictable.

01:07:23   And Apple released some products via a press release,

01:07:25   and what they released was incredibly unpredictable.

01:07:29   A red version of the iPhone, the current iPhone,

01:07:32   and a new iPad, which was a revision in the iPad Air line,

01:07:39   the regular line, but it's a cheaper iPad.

01:07:42   It's a great iPad for the iPad product line itself.

01:07:47   It's a cheaper iPad, can go into more schools,

01:07:50   people can buy it, it's good for the iPad.

01:07:52   But it lends itself to an argument recently

01:07:56   that if you are a user of Apple's products

01:07:59   and you are a professional,

01:08:01   it is, you are feeling increasingly like the company

01:08:06   cares less and less about you.

01:08:08   It's basically, do you have an iPhone?

01:08:11   - Yeah.

01:08:11   - If the answer is yes, then we care.

01:08:13   Outside of that, you're on your own.

01:08:17   - Yeah, I would say even the iPhone stuff.

01:08:19   - Well, yeah.

01:08:20   - We had the conversation last time

01:08:22   where we had a disagreement about

01:08:24   the most disappointing iPhone ever as their iPhone 7.

01:08:27   I think this is also an interesting indication.

01:08:30   It's like three years of essentially the same design

01:08:34   and it looks like very likely

01:08:36   is going to be sort of four years of essentially the same design maybe.

01:08:40   Well, there's an asterisk to that, right?

01:08:42   There is an asterisk to that, but I still feel like

01:08:46   even the iPhone thing doesn't,

01:08:50   doesn't come as an unadulterated pure win.

01:08:54   And the other thing that I do just want to say here is just to be clear,

01:09:00   it's not,

01:09:02   It's not only just us setting expectations for ourselves.

01:09:07   I'll just say like in vague ways,

01:09:10   what I hear from people who know

01:09:12   is that it's like consistently slipping and missed deadlines.

01:09:18   Like it sounds like there's some kind of problem almost

01:09:23   within Apple about getting stuff done

01:09:26   in a way that I find confusing and concerning.

01:09:31   This is why, like, I really was thinking, like, what could possibly be more disruptive than this?

01:09:36   And it's like, almost nothing, you know?

01:09:41   And it's not that the tools that we're using now are bad, it's not that, like, things don't work,

01:09:46   but it's just, it's a concern about how are these things going in the future?

01:09:52   Like, is this something that we can continue to rely on?

01:09:55   Or is it not something that we continue to rely on?

01:09:58   And the workflow acquisition is like a microcosm of this bigger question.

01:10:05   And because of the way Apple works, you just don't know.

01:10:10   You have no idea what they're up to, what they're doing.

01:10:14   But that strategy only works when it's combined with also producing things that people like on a somewhat regular basis.

01:10:22   basis. Yeah. Like the secrecy strategy starts eating itself when you go, you know, three

01:10:30   years without an update to your professional computers. Like then the secrecy thing starts

01:10:35   eating its own tail and you're in real trouble. So, I don't know, like what are your thoughts

01:10:40   on this, Myke?

01:10:41   (sighs)

01:10:43   - It was easy for me to make jokes

01:10:48   when the Macs were not getting updated.

01:10:51   Because I was using the iPad.

01:10:54   - We were all there.

01:10:55   We were all there, buddy.

01:10:56   - And it was fun for me to make jokes

01:10:59   because I assumed that my product line would get its update,

01:11:02   but my product line didn't get its update.

01:11:05   And I mean, I would make jokes at the expense of my friends

01:11:09   that really care about the Mac,

01:11:10   but I do care about it as well, right?

01:11:13   Because I'm sitting in front of one right now.

01:11:16   And I don't want to change.

01:11:20   I'm a, you know, I've been an Apple user for over 10 years.

01:11:26   Like this is what I know.

01:11:27   I know how to use this stuff.

01:11:29   And I'm a fan of the company.

01:11:31   But ultimately I am a fan of technology.

01:11:35   - Yeah.

01:11:36   - And it has just been that over the last 10 years,

01:11:39   in my opinion, the best technology came from Apple.

01:11:44   But then I look at something like the Samsung Galaxy S8.

01:11:49   And that is exactly what I want from a phone.

01:11:54   That looks like what I want.

01:11:58   That looks like the phone that we are dreaming about

01:12:05   Apple releasing in September.

01:12:08   And as someone who has been a devout fan of the iPhone

01:12:13   for 10 years, that isn't something I expected to say.

01:12:18   That Samsung, I believe, are probably making

01:12:23   the best phone available right now.

01:12:26   And there was argument that they did it with the Note,

01:12:29   but the Note exploded, so it kind of took it out

01:12:32   of the running.

01:12:33   Now, you know, it's easy to make jokes about that,

01:12:37   about Samsung's bad management on misfortune.

01:12:40   But let's just assume that they fix this problem

01:12:43   and this will not happen to the Galaxy S8.

01:12:45   That is an incredible looking phone.

01:12:49   - Oh yeah.

01:12:50   - Everything about it, the software, the design,

01:12:52   like all of the design that they've done,

01:12:55   I mean Samsung has had really poor interface design

01:12:58   in the past, but all of the walkthroughs that I've seen,

01:13:01   this thing looks stunning.

01:13:02   Like it just looks incredible, all of it.

01:13:05   - Yeah, it really does.

01:13:06   That's what I want, I want that phone.

01:13:09   I want that phone, but I want it to be an iPhone.

01:13:13   - Yeah.

01:13:14   Or like this is like a similar thing,

01:13:17   a similar thing is like the Microsoft Surface Studio

01:13:20   that came out, right?

01:13:21   - We spoke about that.

01:13:23   - That was totally a moment of like,

01:13:25   am I living in Bizarro land?

01:13:26   This should be the computer that Apple is releasing,

01:13:30   but it isn't.

01:13:31   This is the thing.

01:13:34   It's just, it's, it's deeply concerning to,

01:13:39   to see this stuff and to see Apple consistently fail to

01:13:44   ship or, or to just sell stuff that is old,

01:13:48   like, and, and we're not talking about like 10 years old, right?

01:13:52   But in technology land, the months are exponential, right? Like this is,

01:13:55   this is how this counts. It's like, if a thing is 18 months old,

01:14:00   when it's 19 months old, it's twice as old as it was a month ago. Like this,

01:14:04   this is how this actually works in technology land.

01:14:06   Like you can't count these things linearly and other companies move on.

01:14:11   And so, yeah, it's just very concerning across all product lines.

01:14:17   And I know it's like, or even just like having seen, I mean,

01:14:22   I really can't think of a single area

01:14:25   with maybe the exception of the watch where it's like there's not really concerns.

01:14:31   It's like, you know, seeing demonstrations of Alexa versus Siri, right?

01:14:35   Or seeing like I watched a video this morning of Android's Auto versus Apple's CarPlay.

01:14:44   And it's just like, it was just embarrassing to see the Apple version of this.

01:14:48   And it's making me think like last year when we were in San Francisco and we were walking around all of those companies

01:14:55   and we had that big conversation about like, what are all of these people doing?

01:14:59   I really have the same feeling of Apple like,

01:15:01   where are all of your resources going?

01:15:05   Like I just, I don't understand.

01:15:08   Like, are they all going into the Apple TV and media deals?

01:15:12   Like, oh, nope, doesn't look like they're going there.

01:15:14   Are they all going into iOS software updates?

01:15:16   It's like, well, you couldn't get stickers,

01:15:18   your headlining feature to work on all three platforms

01:15:22   in a consistent way a year later,

01:15:24   so it doesn't seem like they're going there.

01:15:26   Like, where is all of your time and attention going, Apple?

01:15:30   Like, it's-- I find it confusing and concerning.

01:15:34   So here's my feeling about where I am with this right now.

01:15:37   We're like two months, two, three months away from Apple's developer conference,

01:15:42   where they will show what iOS 11 is gonna look like.

01:15:46   For where I'm feeling right now, this all rides on that.

01:15:51   Like, if they show me what I wanna see, right?

01:15:56   which is like big advancements, especially to the iPad,

01:15:58   but just like big advancements in iOS to the consumer,

01:16:02   as well as to the developer,

01:16:03   then I will be willing to like write the year off.

01:16:08   They could have just had a bad year, right?

01:16:12   And this is the thing, we'll never know,

01:16:13   I mean, 'cause they don't talk about it, right?

01:16:15   Like, you know, Apple can fix a lot of this stuff

01:16:18   by saying, hey, look, we're working on a new Mac Pro,

01:16:22   we're working on new iPad Pros, they're coming this year.

01:16:26   but we couldn't get them out in 2016

01:16:28   because of X, Y, and Z, right?

01:16:29   That would satiate a lot of Apple fans

01:16:34   in the way that they feel, but they won't do it.

01:16:36   But if they can stand on stage in June

01:16:40   and show me something that's really awesome,

01:16:43   then I can be like, all right,

01:16:45   either everyone was working on this

01:16:47   or they just struggled or whatever, but there's a reason.

01:16:52   or they're doing something that I like.

01:16:55   They're showing me that they still got it.

01:16:58   But if we get something like stickers again,

01:17:04   I mean and I love the stickers,

01:17:05   but it wasn't a massive technological achievement.

01:17:08   But iMessage apps was the big consumer feature

01:17:12   of the last version of iOS.

01:17:15   And if that's what it is again,

01:17:17   I'd be like, well what happened in 2016?

01:17:20   What were you doing?

01:17:21   And if that's the case, I don't know what I'm gonna do,

01:17:24   Gray, but I know that I have to start thinking

01:17:26   about things differently.

01:17:28   One of the big problems that I feel

01:17:31   is that I'm used to a cohesive ecosystem.

01:17:33   All of my products all talk to each other,

01:17:37   they understand each other.

01:17:38   They are two different operating systems,

01:17:40   but they're run by one company, so they're similar.

01:17:43   There isn't anything like that outside of Apple.

01:17:47   I'm gonna use a Windows phone, I don't think so,

01:17:50   or I'm gonna use a Chromebook, it ain't happening.

01:17:53   So what, am I gonna go to Windows and Android?

01:17:55   I don't wanna do that.

01:17:57   So I feel like I'm maybe at a bit of a loss right now,

01:18:00   but maybe what I end up just doing

01:18:02   is I just adjust my expectations.

01:18:04   My expectations will be adjusted by the end of 2017,

01:18:09   and that maybe instead of just thinking

01:18:11   like I'm always gonna buy the next Apple product,

01:18:14   I just adjust it to, maybe I just buy

01:18:15   whatever technology interests me the most.

01:18:18   Mm-hmm.

01:18:20   I have a little bit of a different feeling about

01:18:22   WWDC and whenever the next Apple event is going to be. Like,

01:18:28   I will be

01:18:30   happy and excited if Apple releases a bunch of stuff that I really like, obviously.

01:18:34   So if there's a big iOS update where there's a whole bunch of stuff that I would want, a competent multitasking switcher perhaps,

01:18:43   you know, just like amazing things. That's great. I'll be really happy, but I

01:18:48   like there's a real fundamental doubt that has been placed into my head that

01:18:55   will not be able to be dislodged until I see semi-regular updates again.

01:19:02   It's a thing that has become like a little thought of

01:19:06   poison with all the tools, just like with the workflow. You open up workflow

01:19:09   and you feel like, "How long is this going to be around?" And even if Apple has

01:19:14   a bunch of amazing releases, I'm gonna feel in the back of my mind this doubt of like,

01:19:21   "Oh, okay, this new iPad Pro, this is amazing.

01:19:26   Is this the iPad Pro for the next two years?"

01:19:29   Yeah, but I can live with that if that's my expectation.

01:19:33   I mean, a lot of my concerns right now are just because they're not working at the pace

01:19:39   I'm used to, or they're not releasing products at the pace I'm used to.

01:19:42   But if it ends up being that iPad Pros come every two years, well that's just how I work.

01:19:48   Both of my iPad Pros work completely fine right now.

01:19:51   I'm able to get my work done on them every day.

01:19:54   But my concern is, will it be another two years?

01:19:57   Because in another two years I'm definitely not going to be able to get my work done on

01:20:00   them as well.

01:20:01   But like I just need to, for me, I need to have the expectations reset again.

01:20:05   That's all.

01:20:06   Yeah.

01:20:07   But this is sort of what I mean.

01:20:09   I need to see some kind of sustained effort.

01:20:14   I think the difference between iOS 9 and iOS 10

01:20:21   was like a real sort of shock of like,

01:20:24   oh, we have all these great features for iPads,

01:20:26   and then it's like, oh, and now there's nothing.

01:20:28   - Because then we were expecting something

01:20:31   for the iPad in the spring, software-wise,

01:20:33   that didn't come.

01:20:35   - And I'm just gonna, again, I'm just gonna add to that,

01:20:37   We had very good reason to expect that.

01:20:39   And it's like, something happened?

01:20:42   Like, what happened?

01:20:42   Some kind of failure to execute on the inside?

01:20:45   Like, this seems concerning.

01:20:46   Like, this seems very concerning.

01:20:47   So yeah, it's just...

01:20:50   I don't know, I feel like I will need

01:20:53   two Apple release cycles

01:20:56   to feel good about it again.

01:20:59   And...

01:21:00   I mean, I even found myself, like,

01:21:02   I couldn't believe I was doing this the other weekend,

01:21:04   but I was like, I guess here I am.

01:21:06   I spent a whole weekend learning Adobe Premiere Pro from the ground up.

01:21:11   Just because it's like, even with Final Cut, I have this little bit of a feeling of like,

01:21:15   "How much time and attention is this going to get in the future of Appleland?"

01:21:20   Like, a lot? Like, I don't know.

01:21:23   I don't know if it's going to get a lot of attention.

01:21:25   Like, maybe I should just check out what this other thing is,

01:21:28   so I have some anticipatory sense of if I do need to do the thing,

01:21:33   which is to turn a Microsoft Surface Studio into my work production machine.

01:21:39   Like I have an idea of what that is ahead of time. And it's like, I can't believe I'm sitting here

01:21:45   learning Adobe Premiere Pro, but like this is what I'm doing because I'm going to feel

01:21:50   a little bit better if I have just like stuck a toe into this water in advance.

01:21:56   And yeah, and that's where we are.

01:21:59   I feel like I've spent so much time over the last couple of months talking about this.

01:22:05   It is the talking point of the time in and amongst people that care about Apple at this deep level.

01:22:16   And I find myself frustrated that I even talk about this because I know it's frustrating to

01:22:22   to listen to if you feel the way that we do. Because what you don't want is people telling

01:22:30   you that your fears are justified. In the same way that a moment ago you couldn't tell

01:22:34   me that I didn't have to worry about my systems being broken. So I get it, but what are you

01:22:40   going to do? I'm not going to sit here and say it's all fine. I'm not going to be that

01:22:45   dog in the fire with the mug, right? Because it's not fine. If this is something you care

01:22:52   about right now this is not what it should be and it's a case of you know

01:23:00   there's a couple of outcomes of it and one of them is just resetting

01:23:04   expectations but I'm willing to accept that but all I know is right now my

01:23:10   wishes aren't met my expectations aren't met right we're way past at this point

01:23:16   the the magic that Apple can produce as you were saying right like people

01:23:20   getting annoyed because a feature that shouldn't exist wasn't launched. Or like people getting

01:23:26   annoyed that Apple didn't jump every single company by four years every year. That sort

01:23:32   of stuff, that's not met. I mean every now and then they do something, which is why people

01:23:36   feel that way about them, but that sort of stuff I can take or leave. But it's at the

01:23:41   point where it's just, as you say, what seems to be just an inability to release new versions

01:23:49   of their existing product lines in a way that actually make the existing customers satisfied.

01:23:55   That's a problem.

01:23:57   The point where I'm looking at this Samsung phone and I'm like, "How difficult would it

01:24:03   be?"

01:24:04   I mean, the answer is very difficult to get up and move.

01:24:08   But then at the same time, I'm like, "Well, you're taking away one of my favorite apps.

01:24:12   You're taking away from me, potentially, one of the applications that keeps me on iOS.

01:24:18   So now what am I going to do?

01:24:20   One way or another, like the very best iOS app in years, you know, is going away in some

01:24:30   form probably?

01:24:32   Like again, trying to look at the branching paths of this.

01:24:37   It doesn't look super great.

01:24:38   And so it's like, okay, well, even if you just kind of let workflow linger around for

01:24:46   a while, like even that is quite disruptive.

01:24:49   So you're lowering the bar to other kinds of transitions anyway.

01:24:54   But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm with you on this.

01:24:56   Like, like I was watching MKBHD's video on, on the Samsung phone.

01:25:00   I'm like, that's an amazing looking phone.

01:25:02   You know, the software doesn't look terrible on it.

01:25:05   Uh, it's like, I guess, I guess this is where we are, you know, we're like

01:25:08   seeing the thing with the Microsoft studio, like boy, that looks, that looks fantastic.

01:25:13   And again, I'm also willing to,

01:25:14   we get all the way to September, right?

01:25:17   And Apple unveil this unicorn iPhone,

01:25:20   which looks like this one,

01:25:22   but has whatever it has that makes Apple fans

01:25:25   say that it's better, right?

01:25:26   Like whatever it is that we believe

01:25:27   that makes it better than everything else.

01:25:29   And also maybe releasing this amazing sounding new iPad

01:25:34   that they've been working on.

01:25:35   And then I go, it's fine.

01:25:38   'Cause you did it.

01:25:40   Oh, I had to wait too long?

01:25:42   I had to get a version of the iPhone

01:25:44   that I was unimpressed with ultimately.

01:25:47   And I had to wait for too long, in my opinion,

01:25:49   for my iPad to be updated.

01:25:51   But you've given me what I wanted.

01:25:53   Which proves to me you can still do it.

01:25:55   And now I'll just assume I have to wait two years.

01:25:58   Because ultimately, I will take what they give me

01:26:04   because I really don't wanna have to move to China.

01:26:07   - Yeah.

01:26:07   - Right?

01:26:09   Because I really don't want to have to get up and move away

01:26:12   because of how disruptive it will be.

01:26:14   But I feel like we're gonna have a bargain here.

01:26:19   Come on, Tim, right?

01:26:20   Like, I'll keep doing this,

01:26:23   but you just need to throw me a bone once every two years.

01:26:26   That's all I ask.

01:26:27   - It's extra frustrating when I feel like

01:26:28   I am your ideal customer.

01:26:29   I will spend this money,

01:26:33   just let me know what's going on.

01:26:36   even if at the next event, Apple releases

01:26:41   Westworld-style sex bots and butlers for everyone,

01:26:45   and they're free, right?

01:26:46   And it's like, oh, this is what we've been working on,

01:26:49   artificial intelligence indistinguishable from humans.

01:26:52   I'll be like, that's pretty impressive.

01:26:54   I see where all the resources have gone,

01:26:56   but there's still gonna be something in the back of my mind

01:26:58   that's like, okay, but how long

01:27:00   until their software is updated, right?

01:27:02   Like I just, I'm gonna need to see some regular cycle

01:27:06   of improvement before I feel completely better.

01:27:11   Even if I get something that is absolutely amazing

01:27:14   in the future, I'm gonna need a little bit more

01:27:17   to feel better about this situation.

01:27:19   - Yeah, but what are you gonna do?

01:27:21   - Nothing, nothing.

01:27:22   There's nothing I can do, right?

01:27:24   I'm gonna talk sadly into a microphone in my office.

01:27:28   That's what I'm gonna do.

01:27:30   How you doing over there, buddy?

01:27:33   I just, it annoys me that I can't help myself with it, you know?

01:27:37   It annoys me that we do this topic, but it's like, I feel like we've kind of avoided this

01:27:42   topic on this show, but at some point it becomes unavoidable.

01:27:46   It becomes a thing that you're just talking around.

01:27:50   So it was eventual that we had to have this conversation, and now we've had it, and now we will wait.

01:27:56   [Laughter]

01:28:01   But Gray, I don't want to end on such a somber note.

01:28:04   Okay.

01:28:05   Because, you know, there is much good going on.

01:28:10   There is much beauty in the world, Myke?

01:28:12   Like, is that what you're trying to tell me here?

01:28:13   You could go out and smell the flowers.

01:28:15   I mean, one of the great things that exists in the world today is this show.

01:28:20   Of course.

01:28:21   This very podcast called Cortex, and this is episode 49.

01:28:25   Next time is episode 50.

01:28:27   Mmm.

01:28:28   Because of our very erratic release schedule, we haven't really celebrated much in the way

01:28:37   of anniversaries for this show.

01:28:40   We didn't celebrate our first birthday, we probably won't celebrate our second, but we

01:28:45   have a milestone episode just around the corner.

01:28:49   So I would like to ask our listeners to give a little bit of participation for episode

01:28:56   50.

01:28:57   And I have a few things that I would like to throw out to them that they could maybe

01:29:02   give me some thought on.

01:29:05   One thing is there are many people that go back and listen to old episodes and every

01:29:09   now and then I get tweets and messages from people who find something that me or you said

01:29:15   particularly funny or ironic based upon how latter conversations would unfurl.

01:29:20   So like, as me and you have changed in our course of working, some things that we said in episode

01:29:28   one or two seem a bit ridiculous. So I would like to know if you have listened to this show and you

01:29:34   find something to be a bit off now considering what you know about us now in 2017, I would like

01:29:41   to know about that so we could talk about them next time.

01:29:44   Basically, how did past us look dumb compared to current us?

01:29:49   What a great way to put it.

01:29:50   So future us can laugh at past us.

01:29:54   What like, what like, categoric claims did we make that have turned out to be very silly?

01:30:01   Yeah.

01:30:02   Also, I am also interested in knowing what you have learned or changed because of the

01:30:11   show.

01:30:12   This is like another thread that we see every now and then where people talk about some

01:30:16   things that they do differently having listened to me and you talk about the way that we work.

01:30:22   So there's just a couple of things that if you have any thoughts to let me know and you

01:30:25   can tweet at me.

01:30:27   I mic on Twitter by the way.

01:30:28   I am YKE.

01:30:30   If you'd like to tweet at me I would be very interested in that or you could participate

01:30:35   in the subreddit either in the Cortex subreddit or like maybe the thread for this episode.

01:30:41   Just let me know some things and we can maybe touch on them next time. I think it might

01:30:44   be an interesting time to look back on the way that our working lives have changed over

01:30:49   the last couple of years of doing this show and that might be a fun way to do that.

01:30:52   Sounds good.

01:30:53   Help us celebrate. I mean, I guess we did have a cortex-versary at one point.

01:31:00   Did we?

01:31:01   But I think that kind of was sprung on us accidentally where I think during the recording

01:31:04   of the show I realised that we were a year old.

01:31:07   Ah, okay.

01:31:08   But this is like a real planned celebration.

01:31:11   I promise it won't be a clip show.

01:31:15   I would not let Myke do a clip show.

01:31:18   I hate clip shows.

01:31:19   Unless it was a phenomenal offer on the table, right?

01:31:23   I mean, okay, so I guess let me take that back immediately.

01:31:25   I would let Myke do a clip show, but almost certainly this will not be a clip show.

01:31:31   One of the problems of being in a world where we can binge watch TV shows, clip shows stand

01:31:38   out now in that.

01:31:41   Because you're like, I watched that episode like yesterday and you're showing me a clip

01:31:46   about it as if it was five years ago.

01:31:48   When we were watching through Friends, I noticed that abundantly.

01:31:52   They loved a clip show.

01:31:53   Oh did they?

01:31:54   I was never a fan of Friends.

01:31:56   Really?

01:31:57   Yeah.

01:31:58   Interesting.

01:31:59   Not for me.

01:32:00   No thank you.

01:32:01   Grey doesn't believe in friends.

01:32:03   Sorry, it's dumb.

01:32:05   The whole construct.

01:32:09   The conceit of your show. These friends? I don't buy it.

01:32:12   No, nobody would do this. Hang out in people's houses all day?

01:32:16   Wanna be around people? I don't buy it.

01:32:18   So anyway, no CortexClip show.

01:32:23   No.

01:32:24   But let us know where we were dumb.

01:32:26   Let us know anything that has changed in your mind

01:32:28   over the course of listening to the show.