Cortex

00:00:00 ◼   ► So our long international nightmare is over and you have published a new YouTube video.

00:00:05 ◼   ► Oh, what are you talking about? What international nightmare?

00:00:10 ◼   ► Well, you know, it's not a national nightmare. Everybody suffers.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Oh, right. The whole globe.

00:00:16 ◼   ► Yep. Everyone has been waiting. I actually looked, I took a look at the dates today.

00:00:21 ◼   ► The previous video was posted on the 11th of November, 2016. And then you followed it up on

00:00:27 ◼   ► on the 29th of March 2017.

00:00:30 ◼   ► So you got it in just under the five month mark there.

00:00:34 ◼   ► You're very close to that.

00:00:36 ◼   ► So congratulations.

00:00:39 ◼   ► You're back.

00:00:41 ◼   ► You've returned from your hiatus.

00:00:43 ◼   ► - Well, I published a video.

00:00:45 ◼   ► We can say that.

00:00:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, this has been a very long time though.

00:00:48 ◼   ► I mean, we've touched on that in previous episodes.

00:00:50 ◼   ► So I'm pleased to see that you got over the hump.

00:00:53 ◼   ► - Yes, as always, I think,

00:00:57 ◼   ► No one is more pleased than I am.

00:00:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it's very important

00:01:02 ◼   ► that you're able to continue to do this.

00:01:04 ◼   ► That is important to you mostly.

00:01:08 ◼   ► It's also important to the people around you, I guess,

00:01:11 ◼   ► that you're able to continue doing the thing

00:01:14 ◼   ► that you should be doing.

00:01:16 ◼   ► I very much enjoyed spending some time

00:01:18 ◼   ► in the Reddit thread for that video.

00:01:22 ◼   ► There was lots of great jokes in there

00:01:24 ◼   ► from Cortex and Hello Internet listeners

00:01:26 ◼   ► about how you're a professional podcaster

00:01:28 ◼   ► who makes YouTube videos now.

00:01:30 ◼   ► It's my favorite thing.

00:01:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm sure that is your favorite thing, Myke.

00:01:33 ◼   ► I can see why you would like that.

00:01:35 ◼   ► You'd like to change the frame of this.

00:01:37 ◼   ► But as always with this stuff,

00:01:40 ◼   ► I always like to promote the Reddit thread

00:01:42 ◼   ► because I feel like for things that I see on the internet,

00:01:46 ◼   ► I'm always aware like, oh, the conversation about the thing

00:01:49 ◼   ► can often be more enjoyable than the thing itself.

00:01:51 ◼   ► And so that's why I always like to really promote

00:01:53 ◼   ► that Reddit thread because I know that experience.

00:01:56 ◼   ► That it's like watching a thing and then joking about it

00:02:01 ◼   ► with a thousand anonymous strangers is a way better

00:02:04 ◼   ► experience than just watching the thing directly.

00:02:07 ◼   ► So yes, there were lots of in-jokes this time around

00:02:10 ◼   ► for this video, which was inevitable.

00:02:12 ◼   ► - My absolute favorite is what was the top comment

00:02:14 ◼   ► when I went to take a look, which is how somebody noticed

00:02:17 ◼   ► that the ad at the end of the video, you introduce it

00:02:21 ◼   ► by saying this episode has been brought to you by?

00:02:23 ◼   ► It's like, it just shows like where your brain has been

00:02:29 ◼   ► for the last four months,

00:02:30 ◼   ► which is just making podcasts and not--

00:02:32 ◼   ► - I disagree with that.

00:02:34 ◼   ► It's an episode of Grey Explains, that's what it is.

00:02:36 ◼   ► - That's, but you've never done that before.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Like I think that you're just trying to get out of this one,

00:02:41 ◼   ► my friend.

00:02:42 ◼   ► - There's prior art on that, yeah.

00:02:43 ◼   ► It's an episode of Grey Explains.

00:02:45 ◼   ► - I don't buy it.

00:02:46 ◼   ► I think that you 100% were just used to doing podcast ads

00:02:50 ◼   ► and you just put a podcast ad in at the end of the video,

00:02:52 ◼   ► you just were in a completely wrong mindset for it.

00:02:54 ◼   ► I think it's hilarious.

00:02:55 ◼   ► - I disagree, disagree.

00:02:57 ◼   ► - This episode of the YouTube podcast that I make.

00:03:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:03:01 ◼   ► It makes perfect sense.

00:03:03 ◼   ► - How long have you been working on this video for?

00:03:05 ◼   ► Like how long did it actually take to put this one together?

00:03:08 ◼   ► - That is an interesting question.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Let me look at my calendar here.

00:03:13 ◼   ► The first draft of this video was done

00:03:16 ◼   ► in the beginning of February.

00:03:18 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:03:19 ◼   ► that because this is when I was in Amsterdam.

00:03:24 ◼   ► It's the product of a graycation this video.

00:03:27 ◼   ► It is totally a product of a graycation this video.

00:03:31 ◼   ► As regular listeners know, I do like to go away to try to do like focused on solid work

00:03:40 ◼   ► and I was having trouble writing and I took a graycation to go to Amsterdam and I was

00:03:46 ◼   ► working on something else that I thought was going to be the next video, but I was having

00:03:49 ◼   ► a really hard time with it and it wasn't going anywhere. And at some point in that trip,

00:03:54 ◼   ► I just wrote a very rough draft of the thing that would become this video, and then over

00:04:02 ◼   ► the next few weeks realized, "Oh, I think this is the thing that I should work on,"

00:04:05 ◼   ► and I stopped working on the other project and instead shifted focus to this one. So

00:04:10 ◼   ► that's the starting point of this.

00:04:11 ◼   ► If you haven't seen it, this video is about the social security number in the US and what

00:04:16 ◼   ► that means and where it came from and I guess, I mean I took from it, it's like why it's

00:04:21 ◼   ► fatally flawed as a means of identification.

00:04:25 ◼   ► We have something in the UK called the National Insurance Number.

00:04:30 ◼   ► Which is very similar but it's not used and in ours actually says, it's got printed on

00:04:34 ◼   ► it that it is not a form of identification.

00:04:36 ◼   ► So the UK kind of stuck to that as a thing as opposed to I really some of the animation

00:04:42 ◼   ► in this is just so good like a lot of the jokes in this one really really good.

00:04:46 ◼   ► So either you or your animator someone was having a good day like there was a lot of

00:04:50 ◼   ► really funny stuff in this one that I enjoyed a lot.

00:04:53 ◼   ► I think my favorite part is the caveman talking to the dinosaurs called Bruno.

00:04:59 ◼   ► That just really got me man.

00:05:00 ◼   ► Why is the dinosaur called Bruno?

00:05:02 ◼   ► It doesn't matter but I love it.

00:05:03 ◼   ► You'll have to ask the animator that was it that was his joke.

00:05:06 ◼   ► Oh really? I'm pleased that kind of stuff's happening though.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Yeah, no it's-

00:05:10 ◼   ► This is the collaboration. There was a lot of really good humour in this one.

00:05:13 ◼   ► Yeah, it's working well. I'm glad you liked it. I'm sort of frankly baffled as to why

00:05:19 ◼   ► anyone outside of the United States would have any interest in this video at all because

00:05:23 ◼   ► it's such a-

00:05:24 ◼   ► Oh well you see, let me tell you. Because sometimes- okay look, I love the United States

00:05:30 ◼   ► of America, right? I love all the people within it, I love the culture, I love the places

00:05:34 ◼   ► have everything. But when you live outside of the US, anytime that you can see that the

00:05:39 ◼   ► US has done something that's kind of silly and stupid, there is an enjoyment in that

00:05:45 ◼   ► to be had by people outside of the US.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Ah, okay. Hmm.

00:05:49 ◼   ► It was like, "Ah, look at your nail!" That kind of thing. And I, you know, I particularly

00:05:55 ◼   ► liked the eagle sound when the passport was, you know, there was like a bald eagle noise

00:06:02 ◼   ► Yeah, screech in the background.

00:06:04 ◼   ► I spent a lot of time going through sound effects of eagles trying to find just the right one for that.

00:06:07 ◼   ► I was like, that was a very last minute addition.

00:06:11 ◼   ► I think that was actually the morning of I decided to put that in.

00:06:15 ◼   ► It was, yeah, very last minute was that eagle sound.

00:06:18 ◼   ► Those kinds of things really appeal to non-Americans, I think.

00:06:21 ◼   ► Yeah, well, okay.

00:06:24 ◼   ► I guess that makes some sense then.

00:06:26 ◼   ► I figured this would be a video with much more narrow appeal.

00:06:30 ◼   ► But I'm looking through the the demographics from the live feed stuff and like why is anybody not in America watching this video?

00:06:36 ◼   ► I don't understand

00:06:38 ◼   ► Well, I mean talking about appeal. I always like to do this. It looks like it's doing very well as we record

00:06:44 ◼   ► It's like oh like like kind of closed closing in on

00:06:48 ◼   ► 1.5 million views or something. It looks like it would do even by the time we're done recording. Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty surprised

00:06:54 ◼   ► This is that pent-up demand man, you know

00:06:57 ◼   ► People just waiting for that gray video hitting the bell waiting for you to come, you know hitting the bell

00:07:02 ◼   ► Subscribe bells you know about this. Oh, oh, right. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah bell me

00:07:07 ◼   ► I think is the phrase that is used on YouTube a lot now bell me bro. Tell me bro

00:07:11 ◼   ► This is a this is like a second level of notification for YouTube

00:07:17 ◼   ► Like you have to explicitly ask it to tell you about every video certain creators

00:07:21 ◼   ► This is part of the evolution of what does a subscriber mean? Yeah, nothing

00:07:25 ◼   ► Yeah, it's like yes, they transitioned subscribers into meaning nothing and so then needed to add an additional layer on top

00:07:33 ◼   ► Which would take over the role of what?

00:07:35 ◼   ► Subscribing used to mean. Yeah, which I actually don't think is the craziest of systems it it just

00:07:41 ◼   ► the word subscriber now

00:07:44 ◼   ► Means like that that word doesn't match anymore

00:07:48 ◼   ► And it should really just be like on Facebook. It should just be a you like this channel, right?

00:07:54 ◼   ► That would be more appropriate terminology for what's actually occurring.

00:07:58 ◼   ► That's a really good way of putting it, because that is like how Facebook works.

00:08:01 ◼   ► I mean, but then you have the problem that I'm sure YouTube would love,

00:08:04 ◼   ► where they're like, "hold people at ransom," right?

00:08:06 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:07 ◼   ► Only so many people saw this.

00:08:09 ◼   ► If you just give us a little bit of money, everyone that wanted to see it can see it.

00:08:13 ◼   ► Yeah, that right there is the reason why I really don't use Facebook,

00:08:17 ◼   ► is I just deeply resent that their business practice is based around

00:08:22 ◼   ► holding your audience at ransom for you.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Right, that's fundamentally what it is

00:08:27 ◼   ► and it's why I don't invest a lot of time in that platform

00:08:29 ◼   ► because it feels like I'm investing in my own jailer.

00:08:34 ◼   ► Right, it's like your own jailer

00:08:36 ◼   ► will make you a bigger jail cell.

00:08:38 ◼   ► It's like yes, but I have a more foundational problem

00:08:42 ◼   ► with his relationship, right?

00:08:43 ◼   ► I don't really wanna put more time into this.

00:08:45 ◼   ► - 'Cause it's like with YouTube,

00:08:47 ◼   ► I think the assumption is just all the system's useless,

00:08:50 ◼   ► which is why everybody doesn't see everything.

00:08:53 ◼   ► But with Facebook, it's like,

00:08:54 ◼   ► are they purposefully doing this?

00:08:56 ◼   ► Like they purposefully hold the content back

00:08:58 ◼   ► from all of the people that like a page

00:09:00 ◼   ► so that the page creator will pay

00:09:02 ◼   ► to kind of effectively advertise their own content

00:09:05 ◼   ► out to their subscribers?

00:09:06 ◼   ► Like, it's like this, I get that.

00:09:09 ◼   ► It's just like a, just such a displeasure for it

00:09:12 ◼   ► that I don't wanna be involved in it.

00:09:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't mean that as an overblown metaphor.

00:09:18 ◼   ► It really does feel like investing in my own jailer

00:09:21 ◼   ► The Facebook thing it just it just feels like I am helping someone with whom I have an antagonistic relationship

00:09:28 ◼   ► Yeah, and even if that makes me better off, I'd rather not be involved in this

00:09:34 ◼   ► Alright, that's the problem there. Yeah, like I'm just as we both do better

00:09:38 ◼   ► I am only but giving you more and more power over me is like no

00:09:42 ◼   ► Thanks, Bell me everybody if you're a subscriber to the YouTube channel, so you can be notified

00:09:47 ◼   ► You know, don't worry. I'm not gonna flood you with notifications. No, I mean about one every six months

00:09:52 ◼   ► I think you can bank on turns out I did Bell you I didn't know that I had belled you but I had belled you

00:09:58 ◼   ► Oh, did you get the notification on your phone? Yeah

00:10:01 ◼   ► But I mean I was just on the your page now and I clicked the bell button and it was already it was already belled

00:10:07 ◼   ► So I've already been belled by me. So thank you Myke. I appreciate it anytime

00:10:11 ◼   ► Anytime maybe I can bell your second channel too high quality content over there

00:10:16 ◼   ► So you're back in style though, right? Like over a million views in like 12 hours?

00:10:22 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah. Again, I'm sitting here deeply surprised, because I really did expect that

00:10:29 ◼   ► this was going to be a kind of narrow interest video.

00:10:35 ◼   ► But maybe people don't know until they start it though, right?

00:10:38 ◼   ► Yeah, it's very possible. It could just be people are freaking out and like,

00:10:42 ◼   ► "Oh my god, there's a new video," and just clicking on it.

00:10:45 ◼   ► I'm starved for this content. It could be anything. Yeah, just like CGP Grey upload why I hate your mom. All right. Well, I mean

00:10:52 ◼   ► Guess I gotta do something

00:10:56 ◼   ► Seems like a dramatic shift in content, but okay

00:10:59 ◼   ► Sure, there's some sort of point to it

00:11:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I'll have to see in a couple of days when I get the audience retention graph

00:11:09 ◼   ► I'll be curious to see if that is wildly different from other videos

00:11:13 ◼   ► because it actually-- I wouldn't be super surprised if it is,

00:11:16 ◼   ► although the only thing I can say there is--

00:11:18 ◼   ► how to put this-- I've had a number of conversations that have convinced me of the great importance of the algorithm in terms of how

00:11:26 ◼   ► many subscribers see your thing. Like, it's a thing you always know, but I feel very convinced about this.

00:11:32 ◼   ► And that

00:11:35 ◼   ► I'm gonna-- I'm gonna be pretty confident that the drop-off rate isn't really dramatic because I think if it was,

00:11:41 ◼   ► it wouldn't be getting pushed out to my subscribers.

00:11:44 ◼   ► I think it would be buried very quickly by the YouTube algorithm if people were clicking and going.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Right, you wouldn't have hit 1.2 million views if it was about to drop off a cliff in two days.

00:11:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:54 ◼   ► Right? Is what you're saying.

00:11:55 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

00:11:57 ◼   ► It never would have gotten to this point.

00:11:59 ◼   ► Because of some of those conversations that I've had, I was actually thinking before I uploaded this

00:12:05 ◼   ► that this might be the video that I upload and it just does terribly

00:12:10 ◼   ► like because the algorithm doesn't recommend it. So I was kind of prepared to be sitting at like

00:12:17 ◼   ► 100 or 200 thousand views a month from now, right?

00:12:21 ◼   ► If the algorithm just says like, oh people are hitting it and abandoning it immediately because it's too narrow focused.

00:12:27 ◼   ► So I will say I am quite relieved that that seems to not be the case.

00:12:32 ◼   ► I do wonder if like you could be in a place where you're tricking the algorithm though.

00:12:36 ◼   ► Because you have so many other funnels that you push people to

00:12:41 ◼   ► That the algorithm thinks that it's a video people are looking for so it pumps it up anyway

00:12:46 ◼   ► Yeah, it might be the case if you're at YouTube don't listen to this. Yeah, don't listen YouTube

00:12:52 ◼   ► You don't need to adjust anything the systems working just fine. Just skip ahead just a little bit

00:12:57 ◼   ► Skip ahead will complain about some stuff later

00:13:00 ◼   ► you can listen to that but you know this part don't listen to that just assume with like your mailing list and like Twitter and

00:13:06 ◼   ► and the Reddit and then, you know, because your videos always end up climbing Reddit

00:13:11 ◼   ► a bit, I think, because you have such an active subreddit. They seem to bubble up to the front

00:13:16 ◼   ► page quite a lot, right?

00:13:18 ◼   ► Yeah, they do. They tend to do well on Reddit.

00:13:22 ◼   ► And that, I'm sure, pushes a lot of people into the video, which I assume inflates it

00:13:26 ◼   ► in the algorithm anyway.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Yeah, I just I don't know

00:13:31 ◼   ► I

00:13:33 ◼   ► Feel like I used to be much more on that side

00:13:37 ◼   ► but again, I'll just say like if I think some I

00:13:41 ◼   ► have been given the impression that this has something has changed in YouTube that the

00:13:47 ◼   ► The external factors are mattering

00:13:50 ◼   ► less than they may have in the past and it's much more a game of

00:13:57 ◼   ► seeing what the retention is very quickly. That there's like a system that tries to predict in advance

00:14:04 ◼   ► if this video is going to be a good video very quickly based on the initial responses.

00:14:10 ◼   ► With the retention though, I do wonder if that like again with the nature of the way that you make videos

00:14:15 ◼   ► which is different to most people that because you make so few

00:14:19 ◼   ► if people enjoy your content, they'll just watch it because

00:14:24 ◼   ► if some like let's imagine you have

00:14:27 ◼   ► 250,000 people right then a really big fans and we'll just watch the videos because you made them

00:14:34 ◼   ► And because there's so few of them that like they may as well watch it all because that's what they're gonna get for a couple

00:14:40 ◼   ► Of months right like you assume that there is a portion of your audience that know this about you

00:14:43 ◼   ► Mm-hmm that maybe again that's also tricking the algorithm because that your at your initial retention figures are good

00:14:50 ◼   ► Because those people were just watching it anyway because I thought I was thinking to be waiting for four months

00:14:55 ◼   ► They may as well finish these next four minutes, you know, because otherwise what are they gonna do?

00:15:00 ◼   ► Yeah, I guess what you're saying here is I've trained my audience not to be picky

00:15:05 ◼   ► I think there's got to be a percentage of people that are that way

00:15:09 ◼   ► Right, then we'll just watch it because it's always gonna be an element of entertainment

00:15:14 ◼   ► Whether they care about the thing that it's about or not

00:15:18 ◼   ► Right, like I feel like I am in that place with your videos. I find them entertaining that I'll watch them

00:15:23 ◼   ► I don't care what they're about. It's like no, I see this one and be like

00:15:25 ◼   ► Social security. I mean, I don't really care about that. Oh, oh, I'll wait for the next one

00:15:31 ◼   ► You know, my beard will go a little bit grayer and and then I'll just get the next one

00:15:36 ◼   ► Do you know what I mean? Like I just see it. It's like well, I see it as entertainment

00:15:39 ◼   ► I'm not like waiting for CGP grade to teach me something I need. Yeah. Yeah

00:15:43 ◼   ► I view the videos very much in that category as well

00:15:46 ◼   ► It's interesting you say that though because that does relate to

00:15:49 ◼   ► Perhaps my the favorite kind of comment that I get is when when I do see people leave a comment saying

00:15:56 ◼   ► That they watched a video about a topic on which they thought that they had absolutely no interest at all and still found it interesting

00:16:04 ◼   ► I think I feel that way about most of your videos

00:16:07 ◼   ► Like a lot of the stuff that you make it's just not a thing that I'm interested in right because I think a lot of our

00:16:12 ◼   ► base

00:16:13 ◼   ► Interests are very different like I've watched your Star Trek video and I find it very interesting

00:16:18 ◼   ► And I I've seen like one Star Trek movie and maybe two episodes of the TV show

00:16:21 ◼   ► I'm not interested in Star Trek, you know, like the Lord of the Rings videos

00:16:25 ◼   ► I don't care about Lord of the Rings, but I've watched the videos

00:16:28 ◼   ► Yeah

00:16:28 ◼   ► Maybe maybe you have a point there and then maybe that is that is related to the kind of comment that I find most

00:16:34 ◼   ► Satisfying in terms of feedback and people like yeah, this thing sounded really boring

00:16:38 ◼   ► But it turns out that like you've you've made it interesting to to hear about a social security number

00:16:44 ◼   ► Yeah, an ID number in a country in which I don't reside

00:16:47 ◼   ► Well, I mean that that is what you do though, right?

00:16:51 ◼   ► Like it's why it takes so long to make the videos because you have to make them interesting

00:16:56 ◼   ► You could make way more if you were just like not worrying about the entertainment aspect of it

00:17:01 ◼   ► You know, but I think you do a really good job. Your talent is in that you're able to make these things

00:17:07 ◼   ► Interesting whether someone's interested in or not, but that's why they also take two months to make each one of them

00:17:12 ◼   ► So that's my specialty boring topics making boring topics fun. This is the next tagline

00:17:18 ◼   ► I'm just trying to rebrand you. Okay, like I'm getting really good at the new taglines for your channel

00:17:25 ◼   ► It's just like really boring stuff. That's kind of fun. It's kind of fun. Good. See to be like that. See to be great. Perfect

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00:19:05 ◼   ► We were talking last time about my feeling of whether my Switch video was good enough, right?

00:19:11 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. Like we're sitting on it honing it honing it

00:19:14 ◼   ► Gotta put it out there

00:19:16 ◼   ► And you said that you sometimes feel like that. I imagine this one then there surely was some extra pressure on you

00:19:23 ◼   ► Oh my god, Myke when when you were talking about that, I just I was

00:19:30 ◼   ► Because I thought... I just kept thinking like, we're gonna have this conversation again, you know, whenever this video goes up because...

00:19:39 ◼   ► I think that there's a few things going on here, but this is a video that...

00:19:46 ◼   ► It's fine. Like we were talking about last time in the Parade of Failures episode, how you can see like flaws in your own stuff.

00:19:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:58 ◼   ► And this is a video in which I can just see a thousand things that I would want to change.

00:20:06 ◼   ► It's a funny thing, but even the fact that the video is, I think the running time is something like seven minutes of me talking about stuff.

00:20:15 ◼   ► And that's an indication to me of like, "This video is too long."

00:20:18 ◼   ► Right? If I had another few weeks to work on it, I could get this down to five minutes.

00:20:23 ◼   ► Like this to me feels like it should be a five minute video.

00:20:27 ◼   ► That is quite a long video for you, right? Like if a video goes over five minutes, it tends to be a bigger topic than this

00:20:34 ◼   ► Yeah

00:20:35 ◼   ► And and this this is exactly the thing

00:20:37 ◼   ► It's like, you know, it is that old joke of like it takes it takes longer to write a shorter letter

00:20:41 ◼   ► like this is exactly the thing it takes longer to make a shorter video and

00:20:45 ◼   ► It's it's this one and it was also the death and dynasties video is the same thing of like they're both around seven minutes

00:20:52 ◼   ► which to me feels like a

00:20:55 ◼   ► It's good enough like you were talking with your switch video last time like it's good enough and it starts to get into the questions of

00:21:03 ◼   ► how long do you want to spend on this before actually getting it uploaded and

00:21:07 ◼   ► the death and dynasties one was an example of I wanted that one to go up relatively quickly after the rules for rulers because I

00:21:14 ◼   ► Felt like it was an important little follow-up and it had to be timed in a very particular way for the election

00:21:19 ◼   ► No, no further comment on that

00:21:22 ◼   ► interpret that however you wish. But I chose to upload that the day before rather than the day

00:21:28 ◼   ► after the election. But anyway, moving right along. And then this one is a similar thing of

00:21:33 ◼   ► just simply the sheer amount of time it has been since I uploaded something before, right? And

00:21:40 ◼   ► combine that with what I'm thinking is going to be a relatively narrow interest topic. It's like,

00:21:48 ◼   ► you have spent many weeks on this already, is it really worth it to maybe spend two or

00:21:56 ◼   ► three more weeks trying to shave down two minutes off of this video?

00:22:04 ◼   ► You were not, you know, you knew you were not making a magnum opus.

00:22:08 ◼   ► Exactly, yeah.

00:22:09 ◼   ► But this wasn't like a "humans did not apply", right?

00:22:12 ◼   ► This video wasn't, you know, intended to be a big deal.

00:22:16 ◼   ► Right.

00:22:17 ◼   ► So that's why when you were having that conversation about your Switch video,

00:22:20 ◼   ► like this is all that was running through my head was like,

00:22:23 ◼   ► I am in the middle of this exact calculation right now of

00:22:26 ◼   ► what point do you stop working on a thing and publish it?

00:22:31 ◼   ► And there's an additional difficulty here,

00:22:35 ◼   ► which is talking behind the scenes of how this video got produced,

00:22:38 ◼   ► is that it's actually the script that ended up being the thing that I'm talking about

00:22:46 ◼   ► was actually only made in the second half of the writing phase.

00:22:49 ◼   ► So, the thing that I started in Amsterdam was a video that was very narrowly focused on just the number

00:22:57 ◼   ► and a lot to do with the digits and like the patterns of the digits and what do all of these things mean.

00:23:03 ◼   ► But three weeks into working on that, I realized like this does not work as a video,

00:23:10 ◼   ► but I've kept pulling in all of these other things that were related to it.

00:23:14 ◼   ► And so, this is also a case of where I feel like I ended up with a kind of Frankenstein's monster video about

00:23:21 ◼   ► Is it about the card or is it about the number? Like, I feel like that's a lot less smooth than it could have otherwise been

00:23:28 ◼   ► Because the original video had nothing to do with the card, it was entirely the number

00:23:33 ◼   ► But then I kept accreting all of these things that I thought were interesting around the card or around the system

00:23:39 ◼   ► and ended up kept shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and cutting down to essentially nothing

00:23:45 ◼   ► what I had spent the first several weeks on. So it's, it's, it was an interesting process

00:23:50 ◼   ► and I'm relieved that it's over. I'm very relieved it's over.

00:23:54 ◼   ► - So when you were doing these on your own, I assume that it was easier to

00:24:01 ◼   ► keep working and working and refining and refining and improving.

00:24:08 ◼   ► because all you were doing was just making more work for yourself.

00:24:13 ◼   ► My assumption would be that when you're working with somebody else,

00:24:17 ◼   ► you may not continue to give them all the tiny, tiny, minute changes

00:24:23 ◼   ► because you have to keep asking somebody to do it, right?

00:24:27 ◼   ► Do you see where I'm going with that?

00:24:29 ◼   ► I know where you're going with this,

00:24:30 ◼   ► but the thing that I have been doing so far with the animator,

00:24:35 ◼   ► And there's there's another video which I started in November

00:24:39 ◼   ► Which hopefully will be up in a month or two

00:24:42 ◼   ► which has been going through the same process is

00:24:45 ◼   ► Basically the animations don't happen until the last possible second

00:24:53 ◼   ► So any real animation does not occur until I have recorded the audio that makes a lot of sense

00:25:00 ◼   ► All right, but there's a lot that can be done ahead of time

00:25:05 ◼   ► illustration rather than animation, right, I assume.

00:25:07 ◼   ► Yeah, so there's a lot of storyboarding that can be done and in particular there's a lot of

00:25:13 ◼   ► asset creation that can be done. So what I'm trying to do is

00:25:19 ◼   ► let the animator know like we're gonna need teachers, we're gonna need firefighters, we're gonna need an Amish guy, right?

00:25:25 ◼   ► We're gonna need these things. We're gonna need these things and

00:25:28 ◼   ► if

00:25:29 ◼   ► If we only end up using half of the assets that are created, that's not a terrible loss.

00:25:35 ◼   ► And it means that if we have more than is necessary, it helps in the animation phase later.

00:25:40 ◼   ► So I'd have to look at the actual calendar, but I think this was maybe ten calendar days of real, like,

00:25:48 ◼   ► "I have recorded the audio, go!" Like, "We're gonna animate it now."

00:25:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:25:52 ◼   ► It's somewhere around there.

00:25:55 ◼   ► But nonetheless,

00:25:58 ◼   ► The animators been working on assets since almost the very beginning when I started writing a thing

00:26:03 ◼   ► I'm like, I'm pretty sure we're gonna do a social security video

00:26:06 ◼   ► Just start drawing social security cards and we'll figure it out later

00:26:09 ◼   ► Did you feel like an extra pressure?

00:26:12 ◼   ► I don't know whether it's the audience or to the business like because there's been such a big break was there like

00:26:18 ◼   ► additional pressure than just the usual pressures I

00:26:25 ◼   ► I was trying to tell myself that there wasn't, but obviously I think there is.

00:26:31 ◼   ► I think there really is a feeling of...

00:26:34 ◼   ► Like, I can see it in the feedback that if I go dark for a while, people start assuming that I'm working on something really big.

00:26:41 ◼   ► That makes sense.

00:26:43 ◼   ► It does make sense from an audience member perspective, and

00:26:47 ◼   ► occasionally that has happened. There's been a bigger video after a bigger break.

00:26:51 ◼   ► And so I do know that there is some kind of audience inbuilt expectation for that.

00:26:58 ◼   ► And yeah, it does make it harder.

00:27:01 ◼   ► But I did very much try to ignore that.

00:27:05 ◼   ► And I was expecting that this video would go very much counter to the pattern.

00:27:10 ◼   ► Like, I was not expecting this video to do super well.

00:27:13 ◼   ► And so I'm...

00:27:15 ◼   ► Like, I'm prepared to go against that pattern to not feel like I have to have

00:27:20 ◼   ► big, long, amazing video that appeals to the entire audience.

00:27:24 ◼   ► Like I'm willing to do something that I'm risking being much smaller and doing much less well than on average.

00:27:31 ◼   ► So...

00:27:34 ◼   ► I'm able to risk going against the normal pattern, but yeah, without a doubt, I think when it gets to be a longer time between

00:27:41 ◼   ► videos, there is more expectation and pressure that the next video is going to be larger, but

00:27:48 ◼   ► It's like well, I can't change the fact that that's not always going to work

00:27:52 ◼   ► So I try to ignore that but in my hearts of hearts like I wish I had some

00:27:56 ◼   ► Three hour long video that I had released right of like look at this thing. It's amazing, right?

00:28:02 ◼   ► But that's that's just not the way it's gonna work out all the time. Why make that risk like why?

00:28:06 ◼   ► you know you say like you're okay with making the risk of

00:28:09 ◼   ► Choosing to do a video that might not have the broadest appeal

00:28:15 ◼   ► But like why would you make that risk? Why not?

00:28:19 ◼   ► I mean, you know as easy as it would be why not do something or make the choice to do something that has a wider appeal?

00:28:25 ◼   ► Like why would you settle on that and be like, okay, I'm fine to make this risk.

00:28:28 ◼   ► I think there's a part of me which is very happy to go against expectations as well. Like there's

00:28:36 ◼   ► There's a there's a part of me which is

00:28:40 ◼   ► Which sees a real upside in actually potentially releasing a thing that doesn't match expectations after a real big break

00:28:48 ◼   ► because then it's like precedent setting right like hey, CGP Grey might disappear for a couple months and

00:28:54 ◼   ► You're gonna get a video on a detail of a bureaucratic system that you're not involved in

00:28:59 ◼   ► like that like don't don't

00:29:02 ◼   ► It feels like it's helping out future me by not setting expectations. Yeah, this is this is a big thing for you

00:29:09 ◼   ► This is what you do this. I know this of you like this this idea of like

00:29:15 ◼   ► Trying to set the expectation that there is no expectations that are set

00:29:21 ◼   ► Mm-hmm, like that is the expectation you want to set is that there isn't any

00:29:26 ◼   ► Exactly. Perfect. That is that is nailed it. It's like it's like the only rule is there's no rules

00:29:34 ◼   ► Yes, exactly exactly

00:29:37 ◼   ► I mean, I think, again, we touched on this last time, but it's the same thing with, like,

00:29:41 ◼   ► expectations about what the topics my videos cover.

00:29:44 ◼   ► And I always feel like my videos cover things that interest me. Like, I'm making videos that interest me, that's all it is.

00:29:50 ◼   ► If you're seeing a pattern, that's in your mind. That's on you, right? That's not on me.

00:29:54 ◼   ► So yeah, I think you're right there, Myke, that there is definitely a...

00:29:59 ◼   ► I don't mind trying to nail home that there's no expectation with regards to schedule, or topic,

00:30:06 ◼   ► or video quality or whatever, right?

00:30:10 ◼   ► It's just like, there's just gonna be things sometimes

00:30:13 ◼   ► and sometimes there's not.

00:30:14 ◼   ► - So another new tagline for the channel.

00:30:16 ◼   ► - We don't need more taglines.

00:30:19 ◼   ► - It's like a paragraph of text

00:30:20 ◼   ► that sits on the banner of the image.

00:30:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, starts out with, okay, listen.

00:30:24 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:30:25 ◼   ► - I need to set some ground rules here.

00:30:27 ◼   ► You should know what you're getting into.

00:30:29 ◼   ► Finishes, you just bell me, bro.

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00:32:03 ◼   ► As the thing I want to talk to you about.

00:32:07 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:32:07 ◼   ► - We have spoken at length

00:32:09 ◼   ► about one of our favorite iOS applications,

00:32:11 ◼   ► which is called Workflow.

00:32:12 ◼   ► And Workflow enables you to,

00:32:17 ◼   ► if you have an iOS device, to create little actions.

00:32:20 ◼   ► They chain together our applications, they talk to APIs.

00:32:25 ◼   ► It's a way for you to kind of automate

00:32:26 ◼   ► some stuff on your devices.

00:32:27 ◼   ► - Listen to your boring explanation there, Myke.

00:32:30 ◼   ► Do you know what Workflow allows you to do?

00:32:31 ◼   ► - What does it do?

00:32:32 ◼   ► - It allows you to use your iPad like a professional device.

00:32:37 ◼   ► - Yes. - It is the key tool

00:32:40 ◼   ► that allows you to use your iPad like a professional would.

00:32:45 ◼   ► That's what Workflow is.

00:32:46 ◼   ► Vital, irreplaceable tool. - Yes.

00:32:50 ◼   ► We're in a situation right now where either the best thing

00:32:53 ◼   ► or the worst thing has happened,

00:32:54 ◼   ► and there is literally no way to know

00:32:56 ◼   ► in which direction this is gonna go,

00:32:58 ◼   ► because Apple has bought the company that makes it.

00:33:01 ◼   ► So we are sitting right now at a crossroads

00:33:09 ◼   ► in which either Apple takes this application,

00:33:13 ◼   ► then this team to build something like Workflow

00:33:16 ◼   ► native to the platform.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Like it has hooks deep within the heart of iOS

00:33:22 ◼   ► and maybe macOS, or they just really like this team

00:33:26 ◼   ► and they're just gonna go work on something else

00:33:28 ◼   ► workflow which is currently available and now free so you should try it if you've never

00:33:32 ◼   ► played it before that will just kind of wither on the vine.

00:33:36 ◼   ► Well I think we can take heart in the great history of software acquisitions in the modern

00:33:44 ◼   ► world.

00:33:45 ◼   ► I think we can all agree that when a big company acquires a small company it has always been

00:33:50 ◼   ► for the best.

00:33:52 ◼   ► For the best.

00:33:55 ◼   ► It's like, you know, they're usually sunsetted and sunsets are nice, you know?

00:33:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:00 ◼   ► You can enjoy a sunset.

00:34:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:04 ◼   ► So what would you say?

00:34:05 ◼   ► 80% of acquisitions, the result is the product acquired lingers for a while with software

00:34:13 ◼   ► updates in doubt and then eventually just dies and the team who creates it is absorbed

00:34:20 ◼   ► within the larger monstrosity.

00:34:22 ◼   ► - And then those people wait until their contract's up

00:34:26 ◼   ► and their shares vest and then they leave the big company

00:34:28 ◼   ► and start their own thing with the money that they made.

00:34:31 ◼   ► That tends to be how it goes.

00:34:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, that seems like 80% of acquisitions.

00:34:35 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:34:35 ◼   ► So,

00:34:37 ◼   ► I've been going through the grieving process about this.

00:34:44 ◼   ► Honestly.

00:34:45 ◼   ► It's been a really weird week or two for me

00:34:49 ◼   ► because I have like, I've gone through sadness and anger and bargaining. I've been going

00:34:54 ◼   ► through all of this because I really like to work on iOS, right? It's a big thing for

00:35:03 ◼   ► me. And you nailed it in saying that like, if you want to work on iOS, you kind of have

00:35:07 ◼   ► to have this application because there's some stuff that you just can't do otherwise.

00:35:12 ◼   ► Yeah, there were two changes that made working on an iPad a real laptop replacement for a lot of people.

00:35:22 ◼   ► And they were split-screen multitasking and the existence of the Workflow app.

00:35:28 ◼   ► I think those two things together are the key that changed the way iOS and the way iPads work for a lot of people.

00:35:40 ◼   ► They've made it possible to replace a laptop or replace a computer for a large portion of your work.

00:35:46 ◼   ► Chris: And there isn't anything that replaces workflow.

00:35:50 ◼   ► No, there isn't another application. I mean, if it went away, the way that you would replace it is

00:35:56 ◼   ► by doing things slower and/or in a more cumbersome way, right? Using two or three applications in

00:36:05 ◼   ► strange ways to try and replace one. And it's a concern for me, and this is just something

00:36:13 ◼   ► that's been on my mind a lot recently, about not being in control of things that you rely

00:36:18 ◼   ► on. I mean, there's a huge one for you, which is YouTube. We spoke about this so many times,

00:36:26 ◼   ► I mean, and there's been all these stories recently of big companies pulling out of YouTube

00:36:31 ◼   ► bad buys and stuff like that. And it's like well that's that's a huge thing

00:36:35 ◼   ► right like you have absolutely no control over that part of your business

00:36:38 ◼   ► and then it just comes down all the way to these little tools that

00:36:43 ◼   ► enable us to format markdown in such a way that it can be easily emailed.

00:36:49 ◼   ► These are things that we rely on that we can't control. I mean we were talking

00:36:53 ◼   ► about Trello. You know Trello has been bought recently. I mean Trello is an app

00:36:58 ◼   ► that we both use a lot for specific things, but that might go away.

00:37:02 ◼   ► And I'm kind of in this like, am I going off the grid here?

00:37:06 ◼   ► Is that what I'm doing?

00:37:07 ◼   ► Like, do I need to live off my own land?

00:37:09 ◼   ► Like, where are we going with this?

00:37:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, this is always the problem, right?

00:37:16 ◼   ► That you rely on things and they become vital, and then you realise that you are open to

00:37:22 ◼   ► a certain kind of vulnerability, right?

00:37:25 ◼   ► This is this is actually just what we were talking about with Facebook earlier, right?

00:37:29 ◼   ► Like you achieve a lot of success on Facebook

00:37:32 ◼   ► but then suddenly you're actually quite vulnerable to Facebook and the way things happen and it can be the same way with

00:37:38 ◼   ► tools like and what tools do you invest your time and energy and effort into and then

00:37:46 ◼   ► once you've done that you become at the mercy of the producers of those tools and

00:37:54 ◼   ► And I just think like the workflow acquisition is particularly concerning because it is this glue that works with a whole bunch of other tools.

00:38:08 ◼   ► Like it is a meta tool that makes all the other tools more useful.

00:38:14 ◼   ► And I think that is part of the reason why it is, I would say, extremely concerning that it has been required.

00:38:22 ◼   ► Well, the other part is who they were bought by makes it even worse because they were bought

00:38:28 ◼   ► by a company that won't let anybody talk about anything.

00:38:31 ◼   ► If Google bought workflow, there probably would have been a post on the workflow blog

00:38:36 ◼   ► at least trying to give us some false hope.

00:38:38 ◼   ► Mm-hmm, right, yeah.

00:38:40 ◼   ► But with Apple, it's like nothing.

00:38:43 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, speaking of relying on tools, there's also a meta conversation around this

00:38:51 ◼   ► that is about relying on Apple and the things that Apple produces just in general as like

00:38:57 ◼   ► the most foundational level of the tools that you rely upon, right? Workflows up here at

00:39:05 ◼   ► the top, right, but at the bottom is like I need to buy a piece of aluminum and glass

00:39:10 ◼   ► that I'm going to work on, right, in some form or another from some company and being

00:39:16 ◼   ► invested in the Apple ecosystem is that kind of thing.

00:39:19 ◼   ► Let's put a pin in that for a moment.

00:39:23 ◼   ► Because I have lots of thoughts about that too, and I'm sure you do, but I don't want

00:39:28 ◼   ► to go down that rabbit hole yet.

00:39:30 ◼   ► BRIAN: No, we could go down that, but it's so wide and inviting, Myke, this rabbit hole.

00:39:34 ◼   ► MATT: So let's just, I mean, we'll just mark it on the map and we can come back to that

00:39:38 ◼   ► rabbit hole later.

00:39:39 ◼   ► BRIAN and MATT We'll return to that later.

00:39:40 ◼   ► MATT I've been thinking about this idea of reliance on things we can't control, and I

00:39:46 ◼   ► have a question for you, right?

00:39:48 ◼   ► I've tried to boil this down into a question.

00:39:50 ◼   ► Is it better to just use simple tools

00:39:54 ◼   ► or to take advantage of complex ones

00:39:57 ◼   ► which allow you to build more productive systems

00:40:01 ◼   ► with the risk of potentially losing them?

00:40:03 ◼   ► So like, if we stuck to just really basic tools,

00:40:08 ◼   ► it's more easily replaceable.

00:40:11 ◼   ► Like if everything that we do is just basic spreadsheets,

00:40:15 ◼   ► basic text, you can put them anywhere.

00:40:18 ◼   ► But when you start using automation systems,

00:40:21 ◼   ► Zapier and IFTTT and Workflow,

00:40:24 ◼   ► to create more robust and powerful systems,

00:40:29 ◼   ► you open yourself up to the danger

00:40:31 ◼   ► of these things going away.

00:40:32 ◼   ► So is it better, it's like,

00:40:34 ◼   ► is it better to have loved and lost

00:40:36 ◼   ► and never to have loved at all?

00:40:38 ◼   ► That's basically the question that I'm asking.

00:40:40 ◼   ► - I don't know, I feel like you're asking a question

00:40:43 ◼   ► about how civilization works here

00:40:45 ◼   ► without realizing. - Yeah, I think so.

00:40:46 ◼   ► - It's like, look, as we progress in civilization,

00:40:50 ◼   ► you keep using more and more complex tools

00:40:53 ◼   ► upon which you rely fantastically more

00:40:56 ◼   ► and you have no control over.

00:40:57 ◼   ► - Like what if electricity went away?

00:40:59 ◼   ► - Right, but you see it like,

00:41:00 ◼   ► this is actually like the meta question here,

00:41:02 ◼   ► is like we're moving up the stack

00:41:05 ◼   ► of technological development.

00:41:07 ◼   ► It's like, do you know what you rely on?

00:41:09 ◼   ► Logistic chains, right, in the world to bring you food,

00:41:12 ◼   ► otherwise you starve to death.

00:41:14 ◼   ► But we can, I think it is possible to boil it down

00:41:16 ◼   ► to like this discussion we've been having

00:41:18 ◼   ► for weeks about automation.

00:41:19 ◼   ► We don't have to do that stuff, we just want to

00:41:23 ◼   ► because we enjoy it and it makes our working lives

00:41:26 ◼   ► a little bit more pleasant.

00:41:27 ◼   ► But we were doing all of the things

00:41:30 ◼   ► that we were doing before and if we just keep doing them,

00:41:32 ◼   ► it's easier to replace them

00:41:34 ◼   ► because we're used to just doing them that way.

00:41:37 ◼   ► But once you start building these complex systems,

00:41:39 ◼   ► you end up with more ways that they can break.

00:41:41 ◼   ► I think this is very context dependent, right?

00:41:46 ◼   ► And it's like, you know, it's like that quote like,

00:41:50 ◼   ► "Things should be as simple as possible but no simpler."

00:41:54 ◼   ► Right, which is like, oh, great, helpful, thank you.

00:41:56 ◼   ► I feel that way about the tools, like, I generally prefer

00:41:59 ◼   ► simpler tools over complex tools.

00:42:03 ◼   ► Like, for example, in terms of, um,

00:42:06 ◼   ► just thinking of, like, my writing environment.

00:42:10 ◼   ► This is a case where I have for...

00:42:13 ◼   ► I mean, for all of my writing life now,

00:42:16 ◼   ► greatly preferred the option where I can have a bunch of text files in Dropbox

00:42:21 ◼   ► and they will sync with whatever program I'm using to do my text editing.

00:42:27 ◼   ► And that always to me feels like this is what I want.

00:42:30 ◼   ► I don't want to end up getting caught up and held hostage to

00:42:35 ◼   ► the ecosystem of one app for writing.

00:42:39 ◼   ► because the writing is so foundationally important that I need to be able to switch my tools if something happens.

00:42:47 ◼   ► And this is a thing that has paid off tremendously.

00:42:50 ◼   ► Like the number of times I have switched Dropbox-enabled Markdown editors is large,

00:42:57 ◼   ► often because they just stop being developed, or there's a change in a feature that bothers me and then I can switch to something else.

00:43:05 ◼   ► So that's a case where it's like, yes, for something that's super important, I do prefer to try to keep it

00:43:11 ◼   ► simple and also

00:43:14 ◼   ► swappable. And it's why, for example, like,

00:43:17 ◼   ► I played around with Scrivener on iOS as a writing environment.

00:43:22 ◼   ► It's a good app. Like, I can, you know, it seems like it's a great way to write.

00:43:27 ◼   ► I know a lot of people really like it, but there's something about

00:43:30 ◼   ► being really

00:43:33 ◼   ► and locked into their system, which I don't like being on the other side of that equation.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Like, oh, now I am dependent on Scrivener. I am not using them as a tool to get a thing done.

00:43:47 ◼   ► But that is not always a possibility. Like, for example, there's no version of, I have a bunch of text files

00:43:54 ◼   ► and I'm just using a writing editing app for animation, right? Or video production.

00:44:01 ◼   ► Like at some point you have to just say, "I'm going to pick a complex tool and I'm going

00:44:06 ◼   ► to learn and invest a whole bunch of time in it," and end up being kind of held hostage

00:44:11 ◼   ► to that tool because there's simply no other option at certain levels of complexity.

00:44:17 ◼   ► Final Cut is a good example of that, right?

00:44:19 ◼   ► Is the perfect example of it.

00:44:21 ◼   ► The previous version of Final Cut, everybody learned, professionals were using, and then

00:44:25 ◼   ► Apple burned it down to the ground and rebuilt it, and it was completely different, and it

00:44:29 ◼   ► was missing a lot of functions and it made people really upset.

00:44:33 ◼   ► Which was coincidentally the exact time that I transitioned to Final Cut.

00:44:38 ◼   ► Because Final Cut became useful to somebody that didn't know how to use it already.

00:44:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I remember that very well.

00:44:44 ◼   ► I was using iMovie before then and then I heard all these things, like all these people

00:44:48 ◼   ► are complaining that Final Cut was totally redone and made simpler and they hate it and

00:44:51 ◼   ► they're like, "Ooh, that sounds great!

00:44:52 ◼   ► That sounds like the perfect time to transition, do a better tool."

00:44:57 ◼   ► It's like, you know, fast forward several years and it's like I have mad Final Cut skills that I am

00:45:04 ◼   ► reluctant to give up, right, to switch over to something like Adobe Premiere Pro.

00:45:10 ◼   ► But now it's like I'm also held hostage to the development pace and tools of Final Cut.

00:45:18 ◼   ► But like I said, I think at a certain level of complexity it's just totally

00:45:22 ◼   ► is totally unavoidable.

00:45:23 ◼   ► Or even if we move away from software, like with the YouTube thing,

00:45:27 ◼   ► there is a level of

00:45:30 ◼   ► held hostage-ness that is simply unavoidable.

00:45:33 ◼   ► Like if you want to make videos that are seen by a bunch of people,

00:45:39 ◼   ► there is only one option.

00:45:41 ◼   ► Like you're going to put those videos up on YouTube.

00:45:46 ◼   ► That is the unambiguous, only serious contender today

00:45:51 ◼   ► for doing that kind of thing. And so it's like, well, you're going to have to use that tool.

00:45:56 ◼   ► You simply have no other option.

00:45:58 ◼   ► I've been thinking about this with people too.

00:46:03 ◼   ► Like when you hire someone, I've been thinking about this a lot recently,

00:46:09 ◼   ► you start to build systems with them, right?

00:46:14 ◼   ► Now if that person leaves, you have to start over again. Like you're back to doing it.

00:46:20 ◼   ► the system goes away.

00:46:23 ◼   ► And what do you think about that when you're thinking about your assistant or your animator?

00:46:30 ◼   ► You have been working with these people, especially your assistant, for a long time.

00:46:34 ◼   ► If they went away, you would have to take all that back again.

00:46:41 ◼   ► That would not be a fun time.

00:46:42 ◼   ► No.

00:46:43 ◼   ► I mean, because then you have to find somebody else and then it's like you have to start

00:46:46 ◼   ► over with them and train them and then realize that your assistant was doing things and you

00:46:49 ◼   ► don't know how to do them because they're better than you you know yeah it

00:46:55 ◼   ► definitely is the case you know I think there's this is also like a a scale

00:47:02 ◼   ► issue right that when when companies get very large right like like a company

00:47:08 ◼   ► that you worked at it's more fundamental that the people are more replaceable but

00:47:14 ◼   ► as you get down to smaller and smaller groups I think changing out any of the

00:47:18 ◼   ► individual members has more and more of an impact, right? That it's like, when there's four people

00:47:25 ◼   ► working together, the particulars of those individuals are absolutely vital. But any

00:47:30 ◼   ► company that has a thousand people working together, the overall structure and process

00:47:36 ◼   ► has to be the thing that matters because there's some amount of turnover that is simply unavoidable

00:47:41 ◼   ► at every level. It just has to be built in. The individual skills just come out in the wash.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Exactly. So I was kind of-- I was half joking when I said I think you're asking a question about civilization here

00:47:54 ◼   ► but I'm really not because I think there isn't an answer to this question that is separable from

00:48:00 ◼   ► what level of complexity are you working at? And at certain levels of complexity there is just

00:48:08 ◼   ► there is just a single solution of the way to do this. Like if you have three people working together

00:48:16 ◼   ► there's no way to make those people not vitally important and quickly replaceable, right?

00:48:22 ◼   ► And if you have a thousand people working together, it's almost impossible to have one individual

00:48:27 ◼   ► who is absolutely irreplaceable in that system. Like it's just, I think it's just that like it falls out of the nature of

00:48:35 ◼   ► the thing and that applies to people, it applies to companies, it applies to the tools and tasks in your life, and it applies to

00:48:44 ◼   ► as a whole.

00:48:45 ◼   ► Yeah, but I don't...

00:48:48 ◼   ► I know you want to feel like you have a choice here, Myke,

00:48:51 ◼   ► but I really don't think you do, I guess is what I'm trying to get at.

00:48:54 ◼   ► Right?

00:48:55 ◼   ► I just, I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I can't be prepared for it.

00:49:00 ◼   ► Fully.

00:49:02 ◼   ► You know, that like any of these sorts of changes,

00:49:05 ◼   ► like an app that I use a lot or a web service that I really use or a person,

00:49:12 ◼   ► that any of those things going away or changing fundamentally I

00:49:17 ◼   ► Can't be prepared for it. Like it's always gonna be like

00:49:21 ◼   ► we go back to the Stone Age and

00:49:24 ◼   ► We have to start civilization up again, you know, and I'm uncomfortable about that feeling

00:49:32 ◼   ► There's just like a bunch of things in my life right now my working life

00:49:36 ◼   ► Where this is starting to come to a head and it's in?

00:49:40 ◼   ► hiring someone and thinking about building systems and realizing how sweet a life it's

00:49:45 ◼   ► going to be when there's stuff I don't have to do anymore. But then thinking about what about

00:49:49 ◼   ► the day if I have to take them back again. Right. I got rid of these tasks. Like boomerang tasks.

00:49:56 ◼   ► Yeah. And then also an application that is super important for me to continue using a device that

00:50:04 ◼   ► that I like, at risk of going away or being changed

00:50:08 ◼   ► so significantly that it becomes less useful again.

00:50:13 ◼   ► And then moving me back to a platform

00:50:15 ◼   ► that I don't wanna use as much.

00:50:18 ◼   ► And I'm just, there are just these different strands

00:50:22 ◼   ► in my life where I'm like, I have no control.

00:50:26 ◼   ► And I don't like that.

00:50:27 ◼   ► - Myke's in a hard place everybody.

00:50:30 ◼   ► That's what's going on. - Turns out, turns out.

00:50:32 ◼   ► What's going on with Myke?

00:50:34 ◼   ► But I really do think this is like a side effect of where you are and where you are with your business.

00:50:42 ◼   ► That is, like, I'm here too.

00:50:46 ◼   ► Which is the, like, you're big enough to be working with a bunch of people, but you're not so big that you have processes that totally insulate you from the effect of those people leaving.

00:50:57 ◼   ► And it's like, well, that's just a side effect of having a number of people that you're working

00:51:02 ◼   ► with that isn't like a hundred or a thousand people that you're working with.

00:51:06 ◼   ► I think there's no way around that.

00:51:07 ◼   ► But really, the people thing is, it's there.

00:51:10 ◼   ► It's like a thing that I'm thinking about.

00:51:11 ◼   ► But my biggest concern right now is workflow.

00:51:14 ◼   ► That is my number one concern right now, is that application.

00:51:20 ◼   ► And it's just like, it's also just been bouncing on some things I've also been thinking about.

00:51:24 ◼   ► about but I'm like as I am becoming more and more of a programmer and looking at these

00:51:31 ◼   ► web automation tools, these are all closed systems owned by a company that could all

00:51:38 ◼   ► just go away.

00:51:39 ◼   ► And you know I'm starting to think every one of these services that I'm using now, stuff

00:51:44 ◼   ► like Toggle and Zapier, I'm like please let me pay.

00:51:50 ◼   ► I'm only starting to bring on these services now if I can pay for them?

00:51:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I honestly think that is a really great criteria and I feel the exact same way.

00:52:00 ◼   ► It's actually a thing that I always had a little draft email to send to the workflow team that I

00:52:08 ◼   ► never quite got around to sending, but it was going to be an email saying, "Please turn this

00:52:12 ◼   ► app into a subscription service so I can pay you on a regular basis." Right?

00:52:17 ◼   ► And the reason is, is because if you can pay someone on a regular basis, it means they

00:52:20 ◼   ► have a business model, right?

00:52:22 ◼   ► If their business model is to receive subscription money, their incentive is to continue the

00:52:26 ◼   ► business going.

00:52:28 ◼   ► If their business model is, "We're free, just come and use us and we'll build a large user

00:52:33 ◼   ► base," the only thing that they can do with that ultimately is sell the company.

00:52:39 ◼   ► Because it's very difficult to make enough money at a company that scale in just advertising

00:52:46 ◼   ► unless you're like Facebook.

00:52:49 ◼   ► And none of these services are gonna be like a Facebook.

00:52:53 ◼   ► So the most likely thing is that they either sell their app

00:52:56 ◼   ► for $4 one time or they are free

00:53:00 ◼   ► and that means they're probably just gonna get bought

00:53:02 ◼   ► by somebody else because it's the exit.

00:53:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, and the $4 app is the thing that,

00:53:09 ◼   ► that just has a timeline on it.

00:53:10 ◼   ► It's like you can't outrun this fuse forever.

00:53:14 ◼   ► - That was my concern with Workflow

00:53:15 ◼   ► is that they continued to develop the app so ferociously.

00:53:20 ◼   ► Right, there was so much development.

00:53:23 ◼   ► It's like, how did my $4 that I gave you

00:53:25 ◼   ► two and a half years ago still pay for magic variables?

00:53:30 ◼   ► - Yep, yep, that was my thought as well.

00:53:33 ◼   ► That's why I had this little draft email in there.

00:53:35 ◼   ► Like, please let this be a subscription.

00:53:38 ◼   ► And I have definitely harassed other developers

00:53:40 ◼   ► about this exact same thing,

00:53:41 ◼   ► where if it's a tool that I deeply rely upon,

00:53:45 ◼   ► it's like, please turn this into a subscription service.

00:53:48 ◼   ► I just, I want to pay on a regular basis

00:53:52 ◼   ► because then I can feel like our incentives are aligned.

00:53:56 ◼   ► Like you provide continual value to me

00:54:00 ◼   ► and I provide continual value to you

00:54:02 ◼   ► and we're both happy.

00:54:04 ◼   ► Like nobody has to be nervous here.

00:54:06 ◼   ► But yeah, I completely agree.

00:54:07 ◼   ► Like services that are free,

00:54:10 ◼   ► I'm very cautious of investing highly in them

00:54:15 ◼   ► because you just know like our incentives

00:54:17 ◼   ► are not on the same page here,

00:54:20 ◼   ► or they may be related,

00:54:21 ◼   ► but we're not pointing in the exact same arrow.

00:54:24 ◼   ► - I don't really have a sense

00:54:26 ◼   ► for what's gonna happen to workflow.

00:54:28 ◼   ► I mean, the idea that Apple is going to absorb the team

00:54:33 ◼   ► and create their own engine, their own workflow engine

00:54:36 ◼   ► to better link applications together is great.

00:54:39 ◼   ► it falls in line with our campaign platform

00:54:41 ◼   ► of automation in every app.

00:54:43 ◼   ► - Oh yes, of course, I forgot about that.

00:54:45 ◼   ► - Right, so that would be amazing.

00:54:46 ◼   ► But it's the unknown that I don't like, you know?

00:54:52 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:54:55 ◼   ► - 'Cause I don't know what to do.

00:54:56 ◼   ► Do you have a plan?

00:54:58 ◼   ► - I mean, look, ever since the acquisition has happened,

00:55:02 ◼   ► every time I open up Workflow,

00:55:03 ◼   ► I feel like I'm just investing in the thing that's dead.

00:55:06 ◼   ► - Oh, I know, right?

00:55:07 ◼   ► Like, I wanted to build any workflow yesterday.

00:55:09 ◼   ► like is there any point? This is part of my grieving process, right? Like I'm like

00:55:13 ◼   ► is there any point? I'm working in a deprecated language now.

00:55:17 ◼   ► Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like. There's a funny thing which I think some people have taken

00:55:24 ◼   ► the fact that Apple made the workflow app free as a positive sign. I don't feel that way at all.

00:55:30 ◼   ► I feel like that's their only move to minimize disgruntledness because

00:55:38 ◼   ► You can't complain if they take away something that's free later.

00:55:42 ◼   ► And it's the way for them to leave it up on the store for people who still use it.

00:55:48 ◼   ► It's a better sign than them removing it from sale, which is also a big possibility.

00:55:53 ◼   ► I mean, removing it from the store, I honestly don't think

00:55:58 ◼   ► that is a- that would be a realistic option for Apple to have done.

00:56:02 ◼   ► They've done it before.

00:56:03 ◼   ► I know that they have done it before, but I think they have- they have not done it

00:56:08 ◼   ► force like a comparable tool. Right. Like I really do think that workflow is at a different

00:56:14 ◼   ► level for this and so I think if they had just removed it from the store I would view that as a

00:56:20 ◼   ► I don't think that was a genuine option and so then the only thing to do is to make it free

00:56:26 ◼   ► which feels like don't complain about it later if you started using workflow and never paid for it

00:56:31 ◼   ► and we took it away right like that's I swear to god I would feel much better if they kept charging

00:56:37 ◼   ► for it, right? It's like, leave it up as five dollars.

00:56:40 ◼   ► Oh yeah, I mean that would have been way better, right? Because then nothing changed.

00:56:44 ◼   ► Yeah, right. And then I could also feel like you are not planning on burning the goodwill of the

00:56:51 ◼   ► people who bought your app anytime soon, right? Like that's the way that would feel. But free to

00:56:57 ◼   ► me feels like a stay of execution until it disappears. That's the way free feels like.

00:57:03 ◼   ► And yeah, it does completely change my feeling when I open up the app of like,

00:57:08 ◼   ► "Man, I have invested so many hours in this. I have built so many things that are so incredibly useful."

00:57:14 ◼   ► And I was in the middle of reworking a bunch of the workflows that I had made using magic

00:57:21 ◼   ► variables, which are amazing because that team is a bunch of geniuses. But it did feel like,

00:57:28 ◼   ► "Oh, why bother?" Right? Like, it just... I'm just waiting for the end. I'm just waiting for the end

00:57:35 ◼   ► now. Like, I want to be optimistic, but I'm finding it very difficult to be optimistic about the future of this.

00:57:39 ◼   ► You were supposed to help me.

00:57:42 ◼   ► What do you mean, Myke?

00:57:45 ◼   ► I wanted you to tell me it was all going to be okay, you know?

00:57:49 ◼   ► No. I mean, look, I am...

00:57:53 ◼   ► I am on the side that even the best case scenario is still not a scenario that I like.

00:57:58 ◼   ► Which is, the best case scenario is workflow stays as it is and it just becomes absorbed in part of

00:58:08 ◼   ► the Apple development world, but then that still means workflow, which like you said,

00:58:13 ◼   ► was being developed at a ferocious pace, now gets tied into some internal Apple release schedule

00:58:21 ◼   ► that depends on a whole bunch of other things

00:58:24 ◼   ► and then, you know, now it's just like, okay,

00:58:27 ◼   ► here is another thing that we are at the mercy of.

00:58:32 ◼   ► Right, this is like, going back to what I'm saying before,

00:58:35 ◼   ► one of the reasons I really like Workflow

00:58:37 ◼   ► is it feels like, oh look, here are all of the advances in iOS

00:58:41 ◼   ► that haven't happened in the past two years.

00:58:45 ◼   ► Like, there's one tool that I can point to

00:58:48 ◼   ► which is moving things forward continually in a useful way,

00:58:53 ◼   ► like, on an operating system that for iPads has not been moved forward in a useful way in two years.

00:59:00 ◼   ► Right? And so it's like, "Okay, you acquired this thing.

00:59:03 ◼   ► Is this gonna get sucked into your cycle now?" So that like whatever delays you're dealing with internally affect

00:59:10 ◼   ► everything on the platform? I have a hard time seeing that as like a great option.

00:59:16 ◼   ► Like, I really viewed Workflow as so beneficial precisely because it wasn't connected to Apple.

00:59:26 ◼   ► Like, it was a thing that was separate that was able to develop at a great pace in a time

00:59:33 ◼   ► when there has been great stagnation. So I have no comforting words for you, Myke. I'm sorry.

00:59:42 ◼   ► I think we should go take a visit back to that pin we put in the map maybe.

00:59:47 ◼   ► Oh yeah? You want to go back there?

00:59:51 ◼   ► This episode of Cortex is brought to you by FreshBooks.

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01:01:59 ◼   ► I've spent a lot of my time over the last few months being concerned and/or frustrated

01:02:07 ◼   ► with my ecosystem of choice.

01:02:09 ◼   ► And I don't really know what to do about that.

01:02:15 ◼   ► - I mean, look, I'm there with you.

01:02:18 ◼   ► I find it particularly interesting

01:02:21 ◼   ► because I feel like I have,

01:02:23 ◼   ► I've followed Apple News for a long time.

01:02:24 ◼   ► It's a company that I've always been very interested in.

01:02:27 ◼   ► And I have, in conversations,

01:02:30 ◼   ► almost always found myself on the side of

01:02:33 ◼   ► when people are down on Apple, feeling like,

01:02:35 ◼   ► "Ah, you're expecting too much."

01:02:37 ◼   ► Right, like, you know, you're expecting

01:02:39 ◼   ► magic unicorn stuff all the time.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Like, and I think you're-- it's unreasonable.

01:02:44 ◼   ► But I feel like in the past two years,

01:02:46 ◼   ► I am at the absolute nadir

01:02:50 ◼   ► of my feelings

01:02:53 ◼   ► towards this company in a way that I never

01:02:55 ◼   ► expected to be.

01:02:57 ◼   ► And...

01:02:58 ◼   ► It's just interesting to find myself, like,

01:03:01 ◼   ► switched to that

01:03:04 ◼   ► greatly against my will and and yeah, it's the same thing. It is deeply concerning

01:03:10 ◼   ► because this is the foundation upon which

01:03:13 ◼   ► everything else in my working life

01:03:17 ◼   ► rests. And I was actually trying to think this morning, I was walking around,

01:03:22 ◼   ► I was trying to think like, what could be more disruptive in my life than switching operating systems?

01:03:27 ◼   ► And I think there is literally nothing that could be more disrupting than that.

01:03:32 ◼   ► Like I was thinking, would moving to China and having to learn Mandarin be more disruptive

01:03:40 ◼   ► than switching operating systems?

01:03:42 ◼   ► And I'm convinced the answer is no.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Like that would be, moving to China would be less disruptive to my life than switching

01:03:49 ◼   ► operating systems.

01:03:50 ◼   ► Right?

01:03:51 ◼   ► So it's like, man, I'm really stuck here.

01:03:55 ◼   ► Really stuck here.

01:03:56 ◼   ► I think I kind of follow where you're going with that.

01:03:58 ◼   ► like if you moved to China it would make less of a disruption to me.

01:04:03 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:04:04 ◼   ► Than if you switch to Windows.

01:04:07 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:04:08 ◼   ► Because if you switch to Windows I have to learn how to edit in Adobe Audition.

01:04:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:14 ◼   ► If you move to China we just record at a different hour.

01:04:18 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:04:20 ◼   ► I do not mean that as an overblown metaphor.

01:04:22 ◼   ► I mean that in a literal sense.

01:04:24 ◼   ► Moving to China would affect my life less than switching to Windows.

01:04:29 ◼   ► Right? Like, it would make some things in my life near impossible switching to Windows.

01:04:34 ◼   ► Like, it would cause tremendous difficulty.

01:04:36 ◼   ► And...

01:04:38 ◼   ► That's why it is so...

01:04:42 ◼   ► frustrating, and it-- and--

01:04:44 ◼   ► not even frustrating, it's like

01:04:46 ◼   ► deeply concerning

01:04:48 ◼   ► that...

01:04:51 ◼   ► No matter what Apple tools and products you use it feels like they have failed to

01:04:58 ◼   ► execute on everything for like the past

01:05:02 ◼   ► year and a half, right? It's it's

01:05:06 ◼   ► Again, I'm normally the guy who would be on the other side of this and defending and saying like oh they release stuff when it's ready

01:05:14 ◼   ► You know your expectations are too high

01:05:16 ◼   ► But it's like across the entire

01:05:20 ◼   ► product line,

01:05:22 ◼   ► it's very concerning. It's like,

01:05:24 ◼   ► related to this, I don't want to get into the whole thing now,

01:05:28 ◼   ► but a slight thing related to my working environment is I was thinking there is a space for me to have a

01:05:34 ◼   ► dual monitor computer setup in my working life.

01:05:38 ◼   ► And I was realizing like, how would I go about doing this? Like, what is the solution for "I want a really powerful computer

01:05:45 ◼   ► that I want to be able to attach two screens to"?

01:05:49 ◼   ► It's like, "Oh, I have to buy a laptop that I'm gonna leave in clamshell mode all the time and

01:05:56 ◼   ► I'm gonna buy these two

01:05:59 ◼   ► frankly super chintzy feeling monitors from LG." Like this is a comical solution to this problem.

01:06:07 ◼   ► It's like this is no good. Or relatedly, my wife has been using one of my iPad Pros for a while and

01:06:16 ◼   ► this has been the worst creeping delay because her use of

01:06:20 ◼   ► my smaller iPad Pro has affected my

01:06:24 ◼   ► distribution of where I do work, but I have been thinking for months like, "Oh, this is just a temporary thing.

01:06:31 ◼   ► I'm just gonna wait until the next revision of the iPads, and then I'm going to like readjust."

01:06:36 ◼   ► But now it's like,

01:06:38 ◼   ► here we are after this was expected, and it's like, "Well,

01:06:42 ◼   ► I've been delaying for several months about what I'm going to do with iPad Pros and

01:06:48 ◼   ► now

01:06:51 ◼   ► Now what again like it just feels like it's a bad situation

01:06:55 ◼   ► for

01:06:58 ◼   ► Everybody across all of the hardware. We're expecting there to be an iPad Pro so much in the last episode. I

01:07:05 ◼   ► Very confidently said that I would be making a video about the next iPad Pro

01:07:09 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Like within April,

01:07:11 ◼   ► because just by tradition, traditions that have been set

01:07:15 ◼   ► by Apple for many years, they tend to have a cycle

01:07:19 ◼   ► of their products, and the cycles shift,

01:07:21 ◼   ► but they tend to be relatively predictable.

01:07:23 ◼   ► And Apple released some products via a press release,

01:07:25 ◼   ► and what they released was incredibly unpredictable.

01:07:29 ◼   ► A red version of the iPhone, the current iPhone,

01:07:32 ◼   ► and a new iPad, which was a revision in the iPad Air line,

01:07:39 ◼   ► the regular line, but it's a cheaper iPad.

01:07:42 ◼   ► It's a great iPad for the iPad product line itself.

01:07:47 ◼   ► It's a cheaper iPad, can go into more schools,

01:07:50 ◼   ► people can buy it, it's good for the iPad.

01:07:52 ◼   ► But it lends itself to an argument recently

01:07:56 ◼   ► that if you are a user of Apple's products

01:07:59 ◼   ► and you are a professional,

01:08:01 ◼   ► it is, you are feeling increasingly like the company

01:08:06 ◼   ► cares less and less about you.

01:08:08 ◼   ► It's basically, do you have an iPhone?

01:08:11 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:08:11 ◼   ► - If the answer is yes, then we care.

01:08:13 ◼   ► Outside of that, you're on your own.

01:08:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would say even the iPhone stuff.

01:08:19 ◼   ► - Well, yeah.

01:08:20 ◼   ► - We had the conversation last time

01:08:22 ◼   ► where we had a disagreement about

01:08:24 ◼   ► the most disappointing iPhone ever as their iPhone 7.

01:08:27 ◼   ► I think this is also an interesting indication.

01:08:30 ◼   ► It's like three years of essentially the same design

01:08:34 ◼   ► and it looks like very likely

01:08:36 ◼   ► is going to be sort of four years of essentially the same design maybe.

01:08:40 ◼   ► Well, there's an asterisk to that, right?

01:08:42 ◼   ► There is an asterisk to that, but I still feel like

01:08:46 ◼   ► even the iPhone thing doesn't,

01:08:50 ◼   ► doesn't come as an unadulterated pure win.

01:08:54 ◼   ► And the other thing that I do just want to say here is just to be clear,

01:09:00 ◼   ► it's not,

01:09:02 ◼   ► It's not only just us setting expectations for ourselves.

01:09:07 ◼   ► I'll just say like in vague ways,

01:09:10 ◼   ► what I hear from people who know

01:09:12 ◼   ► is that it's like consistently slipping and missed deadlines.

01:09:18 ◼   ► Like it sounds like there's some kind of problem almost

01:09:23 ◼   ► within Apple about getting stuff done

01:09:26 ◼   ► in a way that I find confusing and concerning.

01:09:31 ◼   ► This is why, like, I really was thinking, like, what could possibly be more disruptive than this?

01:09:36 ◼   ► And it's like, almost nothing, you know?

01:09:41 ◼   ► And it's not that the tools that we're using now are bad, it's not that, like, things don't work,

01:09:46 ◼   ► but it's just, it's a concern about how are these things going in the future?

01:09:52 ◼   ► Like, is this something that we can continue to rely on?

01:09:55 ◼   ► Or is it not something that we continue to rely on?

01:09:58 ◼   ► And the workflow acquisition is like a microcosm of this bigger question.

01:10:05 ◼   ► And because of the way Apple works, you just don't know.

01:10:10 ◼   ► You have no idea what they're up to, what they're doing.

01:10:14 ◼   ► But that strategy only works when it's combined with also producing things that people like on a somewhat regular basis.

01:10:22 ◼   ► basis. Yeah. Like the secrecy strategy starts eating itself when you go, you know, three

01:10:30 ◼   ► years without an update to your professional computers. Like then the secrecy thing starts

01:10:35 ◼   ► eating its own tail and you're in real trouble. So, I don't know, like what are your thoughts

01:10:40 ◼   ► on this, Myke?

01:10:41 ◼   ► (sighs)

01:10:43 ◼   ► - It was easy for me to make jokes

01:10:48 ◼   ► when the Macs were not getting updated.

01:10:51 ◼   ► Because I was using the iPad.

01:10:54 ◼   ► - We were all there.

01:10:55 ◼   ► We were all there, buddy.

01:10:56 ◼   ► - And it was fun for me to make jokes

01:10:59 ◼   ► because I assumed that my product line would get its update,

01:11:02 ◼   ► but my product line didn't get its update.

01:11:05 ◼   ► And I mean, I would make jokes at the expense of my friends

01:11:09 ◼   ► that really care about the Mac,

01:11:10 ◼   ► but I do care about it as well, right?

01:11:13 ◼   ► Because I'm sitting in front of one right now.

01:11:16 ◼   ► And I don't want to change.

01:11:20 ◼   ► I'm a, you know, I've been an Apple user for over 10 years.

01:11:26 ◼   ► Like this is what I know.

01:11:27 ◼   ► I know how to use this stuff.

01:11:29 ◼   ► And I'm a fan of the company.

01:11:31 ◼   ► But ultimately I am a fan of technology.

01:11:35 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:11:36 ◼   ► - And it has just been that over the last 10 years,

01:11:39 ◼   ► in my opinion, the best technology came from Apple.

01:11:44 ◼   ► But then I look at something like the Samsung Galaxy S8.

01:11:49 ◼   ► And that is exactly what I want from a phone.

01:11:54 ◼   ► That looks like what I want.

01:11:58 ◼   ► That looks like the phone that we are dreaming about

01:12:05 ◼   ► Apple releasing in September.

01:12:08 ◼   ► And as someone who has been a devout fan of the iPhone

01:12:13 ◼   ► for 10 years, that isn't something I expected to say.

01:12:18 ◼   ► That Samsung, I believe, are probably making

01:12:23 ◼   ► the best phone available right now.

01:12:26 ◼   ► And there was argument that they did it with the Note,

01:12:29 ◼   ► but the Note exploded, so it kind of took it out

01:12:32 ◼   ► of the running.

01:12:33 ◼   ► Now, you know, it's easy to make jokes about that,

01:12:37 ◼   ► about Samsung's bad management on misfortune.

01:12:40 ◼   ► But let's just assume that they fix this problem

01:12:43 ◼   ► and this will not happen to the Galaxy S8.

01:12:45 ◼   ► That is an incredible looking phone.

01:12:49 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

01:12:50 ◼   ► - Everything about it, the software, the design,

01:12:52 ◼   ► like all of the design that they've done,

01:12:55 ◼   ► I mean Samsung has had really poor interface design

01:12:58 ◼   ► in the past, but all of the walkthroughs that I've seen,

01:13:01 ◼   ► this thing looks stunning.

01:13:02 ◼   ► Like it just looks incredible, all of it.

01:13:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, it really does.

01:13:06 ◼   ► That's what I want, I want that phone.

01:13:09 ◼   ► I want that phone, but I want it to be an iPhone.

01:13:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:13:14 ◼   ► Or like this is like a similar thing,

01:13:17 ◼   ► a similar thing is like the Microsoft Surface Studio

01:13:20 ◼   ► that came out, right?

01:13:21 ◼   ► - We spoke about that.

01:13:23 ◼   ► - That was totally a moment of like,

01:13:25 ◼   ► am I living in Bizarro land?

01:13:26 ◼   ► This should be the computer that Apple is releasing,

01:13:30 ◼   ► but it isn't.

01:13:31 ◼   ► This is the thing.

01:13:34 ◼   ► It's just, it's, it's deeply concerning to,

01:13:39 ◼   ► to see this stuff and to see Apple consistently fail to

01:13:44 ◼   ► ship or, or to just sell stuff that is old,

01:13:48 ◼   ► like, and, and we're not talking about like 10 years old, right?

01:13:52 ◼   ► But in technology land, the months are exponential, right? Like this is,

01:13:55 ◼   ► this is how this counts. It's like, if a thing is 18 months old,

01:14:00 ◼   ► when it's 19 months old, it's twice as old as it was a month ago. Like this,

01:14:04 ◼   ► this is how this actually works in technology land.

01:14:06 ◼   ► Like you can't count these things linearly and other companies move on.

01:14:11 ◼   ► And so, yeah, it's just very concerning across all product lines.

01:14:17 ◼   ► And I know it's like, or even just like having seen, I mean,

01:14:22 ◼   ► I really can't think of a single area

01:14:25 ◼   ► with maybe the exception of the watch where it's like there's not really concerns.

01:14:31 ◼   ► It's like, you know, seeing demonstrations of Alexa versus Siri, right?

01:14:35 ◼   ► Or seeing like I watched a video this morning of Android's Auto versus Apple's CarPlay.

01:14:44 ◼   ► And it's just like, it was just embarrassing to see the Apple version of this.

01:14:48 ◼   ► And it's making me think like last year when we were in San Francisco and we were walking around all of those companies

01:14:55 ◼   ► and we had that big conversation about like, what are all of these people doing?

01:14:59 ◼   ► I really have the same feeling of Apple like,

01:15:01 ◼   ► where are all of your resources going?

01:15:05 ◼   ► Like I just, I don't understand.

01:15:08 ◼   ► Like, are they all going into the Apple TV and media deals?

01:15:12 ◼   ► Like, oh, nope, doesn't look like they're going there.

01:15:14 ◼   ► Are they all going into iOS software updates?

01:15:16 ◼   ► It's like, well, you couldn't get stickers,

01:15:18 ◼   ► your headlining feature to work on all three platforms

01:15:22 ◼   ► in a consistent way a year later,

01:15:24 ◼   ► so it doesn't seem like they're going there.

01:15:26 ◼   ► Like, where is all of your time and attention going, Apple?

01:15:30 ◼   ► Like, it's-- I find it confusing and concerning.

01:15:34 ◼   ► So here's my feeling about where I am with this right now.

01:15:37 ◼   ► We're like two months, two, three months away from Apple's developer conference,

01:15:42 ◼   ► where they will show what iOS 11 is gonna look like.

01:15:46 ◼   ► For where I'm feeling right now, this all rides on that.

01:15:51 ◼   ► Like, if they show me what I wanna see, right?

01:15:56 ◼   ► which is like big advancements, especially to the iPad,

01:15:58 ◼   ► but just like big advancements in iOS to the consumer,

01:16:02 ◼   ► as well as to the developer,

01:16:03 ◼   ► then I will be willing to like write the year off.

01:16:08 ◼   ► They could have just had a bad year, right?

01:16:12 ◼   ► And this is the thing, we'll never know,

01:16:13 ◼   ► I mean, 'cause they don't talk about it, right?

01:16:15 ◼   ► Like, you know, Apple can fix a lot of this stuff

01:16:18 ◼   ► by saying, hey, look, we're working on a new Mac Pro,

01:16:22 ◼   ► we're working on new iPad Pros, they're coming this year.

01:16:26 ◼   ► but we couldn't get them out in 2016

01:16:28 ◼   ► because of X, Y, and Z, right?

01:16:29 ◼   ► That would satiate a lot of Apple fans

01:16:34 ◼   ► in the way that they feel, but they won't do it.

01:16:36 ◼   ► But if they can stand on stage in June

01:16:40 ◼   ► and show me something that's really awesome,

01:16:43 ◼   ► then I can be like, all right,

01:16:45 ◼   ► either everyone was working on this

01:16:47 ◼   ► or they just struggled or whatever, but there's a reason.

01:16:52 ◼   ► or they're doing something that I like.

01:16:55 ◼   ► They're showing me that they still got it.

01:16:58 ◼   ► But if we get something like stickers again,

01:17:04 ◼   ► I mean and I love the stickers,

01:17:05 ◼   ► but it wasn't a massive technological achievement.

01:17:08 ◼   ► But iMessage apps was the big consumer feature

01:17:12 ◼   ► of the last version of iOS.

01:17:15 ◼   ► And if that's what it is again,

01:17:17 ◼   ► I'd be like, well what happened in 2016?

01:17:20 ◼   ► What were you doing?

01:17:21 ◼   ► And if that's the case, I don't know what I'm gonna do,

01:17:24 ◼   ► Gray, but I know that I have to start thinking

01:17:26 ◼   ► about things differently.

01:17:28 ◼   ► One of the big problems that I feel

01:17:31 ◼   ► is that I'm used to a cohesive ecosystem.

01:17:33 ◼   ► All of my products all talk to each other,

01:17:37 ◼   ► they understand each other.

01:17:38 ◼   ► They are two different operating systems,

01:17:40 ◼   ► but they're run by one company, so they're similar.

01:17:43 ◼   ► There isn't anything like that outside of Apple.

01:17:47 ◼   ► I'm gonna use a Windows phone, I don't think so,

01:17:50 ◼   ► or I'm gonna use a Chromebook, it ain't happening.

01:17:53 ◼   ► So what, am I gonna go to Windows and Android?

01:17:55 ◼   ► I don't wanna do that.

01:17:57 ◼   ► So I feel like I'm maybe at a bit of a loss right now,

01:18:00 ◼   ► but maybe what I end up just doing

01:18:02 ◼   ► is I just adjust my expectations.

01:18:04 ◼   ► My expectations will be adjusted by the end of 2017,

01:18:09 ◼   ► and that maybe instead of just thinking

01:18:11 ◼   ► like I'm always gonna buy the next Apple product,

01:18:14 ◼   ► I just adjust it to, maybe I just buy

01:18:15 ◼   ► whatever technology interests me the most.

01:18:18 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:18:20 ◼   ► I have a little bit of a different feeling about

01:18:22 ◼   ► WWDC and whenever the next Apple event is going to be. Like,

01:18:28 ◼   ► I will be

01:18:30 ◼   ► happy and excited if Apple releases a bunch of stuff that I really like, obviously.

01:18:34 ◼   ► So if there's a big iOS update where there's a whole bunch of stuff that I would want, a competent multitasking switcher perhaps,

01:18:43 ◼   ► you know, just like amazing things. That's great. I'll be really happy, but I

01:18:48 ◼   ► like there's a real fundamental doubt that has been placed into my head that

01:18:55 ◼   ► will not be able to be dislodged until I see semi-regular updates again.

01:19:02 ◼   ► It's a thing that has become like a little thought of

01:19:06 ◼   ► poison with all the tools, just like with the workflow. You open up workflow

01:19:09 ◼   ► and you feel like, "How long is this going to be around?" And even if Apple has

01:19:14 ◼   ► a bunch of amazing releases, I'm gonna feel in the back of my mind this doubt of like,

01:19:21 ◼   ► "Oh, okay, this new iPad Pro, this is amazing.

01:19:26 ◼   ► Is this the iPad Pro for the next two years?"

01:19:29 ◼   ► Yeah, but I can live with that if that's my expectation.

01:19:33 ◼   ► I mean, a lot of my concerns right now are just because they're not working at the pace

01:19:39 ◼   ► I'm used to, or they're not releasing products at the pace I'm used to.

01:19:42 ◼   ► But if it ends up being that iPad Pros come every two years, well that's just how I work.

01:19:48 ◼   ► Both of my iPad Pros work completely fine right now.

01:19:51 ◼   ► I'm able to get my work done on them every day.

01:19:54 ◼   ► But my concern is, will it be another two years?

01:19:57 ◼   ► Because in another two years I'm definitely not going to be able to get my work done on

01:20:00 ◼   ► them as well.

01:20:01 ◼   ► But like I just need to, for me, I need to have the expectations reset again.

01:20:05 ◼   ► That's all.

01:20:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:07 ◼   ► But this is sort of what I mean.

01:20:09 ◼   ► I need to see some kind of sustained effort.

01:20:14 ◼   ► I think the difference between iOS 9 and iOS 10

01:20:21 ◼   ► was like a real sort of shock of like,

01:20:24 ◼   ► oh, we have all these great features for iPads,

01:20:26 ◼   ► and then it's like, oh, and now there's nothing.

01:20:28 ◼   ► - Because then we were expecting something

01:20:31 ◼   ► for the iPad in the spring, software-wise,

01:20:33 ◼   ► that didn't come.

01:20:35 ◼   ► - And I'm just gonna, again, I'm just gonna add to that,

01:20:37 ◼   ► We had very good reason to expect that.

01:20:39 ◼   ► And it's like, something happened?

01:20:42 ◼   ► Like, what happened?

01:20:42 ◼   ► Some kind of failure to execute on the inside?

01:20:45 ◼   ► Like, this seems concerning.

01:20:46 ◼   ► Like, this seems very concerning.

01:20:47 ◼   ► So yeah, it's just...

01:20:50 ◼   ► I don't know, I feel like I will need

01:20:53 ◼   ► two Apple release cycles

01:20:56 ◼   ► to feel good about it again.

01:20:59 ◼   ► And...

01:21:00 ◼   ► I mean, I even found myself, like,

01:21:02 ◼   ► I couldn't believe I was doing this the other weekend,

01:21:04 ◼   ► but I was like, I guess here I am.

01:21:06 ◼   ► I spent a whole weekend learning Adobe Premiere Pro from the ground up.

01:21:11 ◼   ► Just because it's like, even with Final Cut, I have this little bit of a feeling of like,

01:21:15 ◼   ► "How much time and attention is this going to get in the future of Appleland?"

01:21:20 ◼   ► Like, a lot? Like, I don't know.

01:21:23 ◼   ► I don't know if it's going to get a lot of attention.

01:21:25 ◼   ► Like, maybe I should just check out what this other thing is,

01:21:28 ◼   ► so I have some anticipatory sense of if I do need to do the thing,

01:21:33 ◼   ► which is to turn a Microsoft Surface Studio into my work production machine.

01:21:39 ◼   ► Like I have an idea of what that is ahead of time. And it's like, I can't believe I'm sitting here

01:21:45 ◼   ► learning Adobe Premiere Pro, but like this is what I'm doing because I'm going to feel

01:21:50 ◼   ► a little bit better if I have just like stuck a toe into this water in advance.

01:21:56 ◼   ► And yeah, and that's where we are.

01:21:59 ◼   ► I feel like I've spent so much time over the last couple of months talking about this.

01:22:05 ◼   ► It is the talking point of the time in and amongst people that care about Apple at this deep level.

01:22:16 ◼   ► And I find myself frustrated that I even talk about this because I know it's frustrating to

01:22:22 ◼   ► to listen to if you feel the way that we do. Because what you don't want is people telling

01:22:30 ◼   ► you that your fears are justified. In the same way that a moment ago you couldn't tell

01:22:34 ◼   ► me that I didn't have to worry about my systems being broken. So I get it, but what are you

01:22:40 ◼   ► going to do? I'm not going to sit here and say it's all fine. I'm not going to be that

01:22:45 ◼   ► dog in the fire with the mug, right? Because it's not fine. If this is something you care

01:22:52 ◼   ► about right now this is not what it should be and it's a case of you know

01:23:00 ◼   ► there's a couple of outcomes of it and one of them is just resetting

01:23:04 ◼   ► expectations but I'm willing to accept that but all I know is right now my

01:23:10 ◼   ► wishes aren't met my expectations aren't met right we're way past at this point

01:23:16 ◼   ► the the magic that Apple can produce as you were saying right like people

01:23:20 ◼   ► getting annoyed because a feature that shouldn't exist wasn't launched. Or like people getting

01:23:26 ◼   ► annoyed that Apple didn't jump every single company by four years every year. That sort

01:23:32 ◼   ► of stuff, that's not met. I mean every now and then they do something, which is why people

01:23:36 ◼   ► feel that way about them, but that sort of stuff I can take or leave. But it's at the

01:23:41 ◼   ► point where it's just, as you say, what seems to be just an inability to release new versions

01:23:49 ◼   ► of their existing product lines in a way that actually make the existing customers satisfied.

01:23:55 ◼   ► That's a problem.

01:23:57 ◼   ► The point where I'm looking at this Samsung phone and I'm like, "How difficult would it

01:24:03 ◼   ► be?"

01:24:04 ◼   ► I mean, the answer is very difficult to get up and move.

01:24:08 ◼   ► But then at the same time, I'm like, "Well, you're taking away one of my favorite apps.

01:24:12 ◼   ► You're taking away from me, potentially, one of the applications that keeps me on iOS.

01:24:18 ◼   ► So now what am I going to do?

01:24:20 ◼   ► One way or another, like the very best iOS app in years, you know, is going away in some

01:24:30 ◼   ► form probably?

01:24:32 ◼   ► Like again, trying to look at the branching paths of this.

01:24:37 ◼   ► It doesn't look super great.

01:24:38 ◼   ► And so it's like, okay, well, even if you just kind of let workflow linger around for

01:24:46 ◼   ► a while, like even that is quite disruptive.

01:24:49 ◼   ► So you're lowering the bar to other kinds of transitions anyway.

01:24:54 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm with you on this.

01:24:56 ◼   ► Like, like I was watching MKBHD's video on, on the Samsung phone.

01:25:00 ◼   ► I'm like, that's an amazing looking phone.

01:25:02 ◼   ► You know, the software doesn't look terrible on it.

01:25:05 ◼   ► Uh, it's like, I guess, I guess this is where we are, you know, we're like

01:25:08 ◼   ► seeing the thing with the Microsoft studio, like boy, that looks, that looks fantastic.

01:25:13 ◼   ► And again, I'm also willing to,

01:25:14 ◼   ► we get all the way to September, right?

01:25:17 ◼   ► And Apple unveil this unicorn iPhone,

01:25:20 ◼   ► which looks like this one,

01:25:22 ◼   ► but has whatever it has that makes Apple fans

01:25:25 ◼   ► say that it's better, right?

01:25:26 ◼   ► Like whatever it is that we believe

01:25:27 ◼   ► that makes it better than everything else.

01:25:29 ◼   ► And also maybe releasing this amazing sounding new iPad

01:25:34 ◼   ► that they've been working on.

01:25:35 ◼   ► And then I go, it's fine.

01:25:38 ◼   ► 'Cause you did it.

01:25:40 ◼   ► Oh, I had to wait too long?

01:25:42 ◼   ► I had to get a version of the iPhone

01:25:44 ◼   ► that I was unimpressed with ultimately.

01:25:47 ◼   ► And I had to wait for too long, in my opinion,

01:25:49 ◼   ► for my iPad to be updated.

01:25:51 ◼   ► But you've given me what I wanted.

01:25:53 ◼   ► Which proves to me you can still do it.

01:25:55 ◼   ► And now I'll just assume I have to wait two years.

01:25:58 ◼   ► Because ultimately, I will take what they give me

01:26:04 ◼   ► because I really don't wanna have to move to China.

01:26:07 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:26:07 ◼   ► - Right?

01:26:09 ◼   ► Because I really don't want to have to get up and move away

01:26:12 ◼   ► because of how disruptive it will be.

01:26:14 ◼   ► But I feel like we're gonna have a bargain here.

01:26:19 ◼   ► Come on, Tim, right?

01:26:20 ◼   ► Like, I'll keep doing this,

01:26:23 ◼   ► but you just need to throw me a bone once every two years.

01:26:26 ◼   ► That's all I ask.

01:26:27 ◼   ► - It's extra frustrating when I feel like

01:26:28 ◼   ► I am your ideal customer.

01:26:29 ◼   ► I will spend this money,

01:26:33 ◼   ► just let me know what's going on.

01:26:36 ◼   ► even if at the next event, Apple releases

01:26:41 ◼   ► Westworld-style sex bots and butlers for everyone,

01:26:45 ◼   ► and they're free, right?

01:26:46 ◼   ► And it's like, oh, this is what we've been working on,

01:26:49 ◼   ► artificial intelligence indistinguishable from humans.

01:26:52 ◼   ► I'll be like, that's pretty impressive.

01:26:54 ◼   ► I see where all the resources have gone,

01:26:56 ◼   ► but there's still gonna be something in the back of my mind

01:26:58 ◼   ► that's like, okay, but how long

01:27:00 ◼   ► until their software is updated, right?

01:27:02 ◼   ► Like I just, I'm gonna need to see some regular cycle

01:27:06 ◼   ► of improvement before I feel completely better.

01:27:11 ◼   ► Even if I get something that is absolutely amazing

01:27:14 ◼   ► in the future, I'm gonna need a little bit more

01:27:17 ◼   ► to feel better about this situation.

01:27:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, but what are you gonna do?

01:27:21 ◼   ► - Nothing, nothing.

01:27:22 ◼   ► There's nothing I can do, right?

01:27:24 ◼   ► I'm gonna talk sadly into a microphone in my office.

01:27:28 ◼   ► That's what I'm gonna do.

01:27:30 ◼   ► How you doing over there, buddy?

01:27:33 ◼   ► I just, it annoys me that I can't help myself with it, you know?

01:27:37 ◼   ► It annoys me that we do this topic, but it's like, I feel like we've kind of avoided this

01:27:42 ◼   ► topic on this show, but at some point it becomes unavoidable.

01:27:46 ◼   ► It becomes a thing that you're just talking around.

01:27:50 ◼   ► So it was eventual that we had to have this conversation, and now we've had it, and now we will wait.

01:27:56 ◼   ► [Laughter]

01:28:01 ◼   ► But Gray, I don't want to end on such a somber note.

01:28:04 ◼   ► Okay.

01:28:05 ◼   ► Because, you know, there is much good going on.

01:28:10 ◼   ► There is much beauty in the world, Myke?

01:28:12 ◼   ► Like, is that what you're trying to tell me here?

01:28:13 ◼   ► You could go out and smell the flowers.

01:28:15 ◼   ► I mean, one of the great things that exists in the world today is this show.

01:28:20 ◼   ► Of course.

01:28:21 ◼   ► This very podcast called Cortex, and this is episode 49.

01:28:25 ◼   ► Next time is episode 50.

01:28:27 ◼   ► Mmm.

01:28:28 ◼   ► Because of our very erratic release schedule, we haven't really celebrated much in the way

01:28:37 ◼   ► of anniversaries for this show.

01:28:40 ◼   ► We didn't celebrate our first birthday, we probably won't celebrate our second, but we

01:28:45 ◼   ► have a milestone episode just around the corner.

01:28:49 ◼   ► So I would like to ask our listeners to give a little bit of participation for episode

01:28:56 ◼   ► 50.

01:28:57 ◼   ► And I have a few things that I would like to throw out to them that they could maybe

01:29:02 ◼   ► give me some thought on.

01:29:05 ◼   ► One thing is there are many people that go back and listen to old episodes and every

01:29:09 ◼   ► now and then I get tweets and messages from people who find something that me or you said

01:29:15 ◼   ► particularly funny or ironic based upon how latter conversations would unfurl.

01:29:20 ◼   ► So like, as me and you have changed in our course of working, some things that we said in episode

01:29:28 ◼   ► one or two seem a bit ridiculous. So I would like to know if you have listened to this show and you

01:29:34 ◼   ► find something to be a bit off now considering what you know about us now in 2017, I would like

01:29:41 ◼   ► to know about that so we could talk about them next time.

01:29:44 ◼   ► Basically, how did past us look dumb compared to current us?

01:29:49 ◼   ► What a great way to put it.

01:29:50 ◼   ► So future us can laugh at past us.

01:29:54 ◼   ► What like, what like, categoric claims did we make that have turned out to be very silly?

01:30:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:30:02 ◼   ► Also, I am also interested in knowing what you have learned or changed because of the

01:30:11 ◼   ► show.

01:30:12 ◼   ► This is like another thread that we see every now and then where people talk about some

01:30:16 ◼   ► things that they do differently having listened to me and you talk about the way that we work.

01:30:22 ◼   ► So there's just a couple of things that if you have any thoughts to let me know and you

01:30:25 ◼   ► can tweet at me.

01:30:27 ◼   ► I mic on Twitter by the way.

01:30:28 ◼   ► I am YKE.

01:30:30 ◼   ► If you'd like to tweet at me I would be very interested in that or you could participate

01:30:35 ◼   ► in the subreddit either in the Cortex subreddit or like maybe the thread for this episode.

01:30:41 ◼   ► Just let me know some things and we can maybe touch on them next time. I think it might

01:30:44 ◼   ► be an interesting time to look back on the way that our working lives have changed over

01:30:49 ◼   ► the last couple of years of doing this show and that might be a fun way to do that.

01:30:52 ◼   ► Sounds good.

01:30:53 ◼   ► Help us celebrate. I mean, I guess we did have a cortex-versary at one point.

01:31:00 ◼   ► Did we?

01:31:01 ◼   ► But I think that kind of was sprung on us accidentally where I think during the recording

01:31:04 ◼   ► of the show I realised that we were a year old.

01:31:07 ◼   ► Ah, okay.

01:31:08 ◼   ► But this is like a real planned celebration.

01:31:11 ◼   ► I promise it won't be a clip show.

01:31:15 ◼   ► I would not let Myke do a clip show.

01:31:18 ◼   ► I hate clip shows.

01:31:19 ◼   ► Unless it was a phenomenal offer on the table, right?

01:31:23 ◼   ► I mean, okay, so I guess let me take that back immediately.

01:31:25 ◼   ► I would let Myke do a clip show, but almost certainly this will not be a clip show.

01:31:31 ◼   ► One of the problems of being in a world where we can binge watch TV shows, clip shows stand

01:31:38 ◼   ► out now in that.

01:31:41 ◼   ► Because you're like, I watched that episode like yesterday and you're showing me a clip

01:31:46 ◼   ► about it as if it was five years ago.

01:31:48 ◼   ► When we were watching through Friends, I noticed that abundantly.

01:31:52 ◼   ► They loved a clip show.

01:31:53 ◼   ► Oh did they?

01:31:54 ◼   ► I was never a fan of Friends.

01:31:56 ◼   ► Really?

01:31:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:31:58 ◼   ► Interesting.

01:31:59 ◼   ► Not for me.

01:32:00 ◼   ► No thank you.

01:32:01 ◼   ► Grey doesn't believe in friends.

01:32:03 ◼   ► Sorry, it's dumb.

01:32:05 ◼   ► The whole construct.

01:32:09 ◼   ► The conceit of your show. These friends? I don't buy it.

01:32:12 ◼   ► No, nobody would do this. Hang out in people's houses all day?

01:32:16 ◼   ► Wanna be around people? I don't buy it.

01:32:18 ◼   ► So anyway, no CortexClip show.

01:32:23 ◼   ► No.

01:32:24 ◼   ► But let us know where we were dumb.

01:32:26 ◼   ► Let us know anything that has changed in your mind

01:32:28 ◼   ► over the course of listening to the show.