31: Later Comes Eventually


00:00:00   Hey Gray, where are you?

00:00:01   Hi Myke. I am in North Carolina now.

00:00:06   Start of the summer of fun.

00:00:08   No, it's not a summer of fun. Where did you get a summer of fun from?

00:00:10   This is not a thing. What it is is a hashtag

00:00:15   "summer of vastly more travel than I would like not fun".

00:00:19   That's the summer hashtag. That's what's occurring here.

00:00:22   I don't think you understand how hashtags work.

00:00:24   What do you mean?

00:00:26   It's a little long. It's a little on the long side.

00:00:29   I think I think I'm fantastic at hashtags. Someone will use that hashtag.

00:00:33   Well they will now.

00:00:34   Someone's having that summer too. They'll use that hashtag. There'll be a little group

00:00:38   of people who are, I know, also having summers of many travels and not fun discussing them

00:00:44   on a hashtag. That's how it works. I use Twitter. I know how the Twitter works, Myke.

00:00:47   Sounds like it.

00:00:48   But yes, for the moment, for the moment, I am visiting my parents in North Carolina and

00:00:54   and I'm talking to you from my temporary recording studio.

00:00:59   - It means Cortexmas is on the way.

00:01:01   - Oh yeah, summer Cortexmas,

00:01:04   one of the six annual Cortexmases coming up very shortly.

00:01:07   - Why does it grow, it multiplies.

00:01:09   - When is that coming up?

00:01:10   I don't know, I forget, when is that?

00:01:12   - I think it's in August sometime.

00:01:14   - Okay, so you want the people to know

00:01:15   that there's going to be a missing episode in August.

00:01:17   - I feel like I have to tell them.

00:01:20   I know you would prefer to just never tell them,

00:01:23   I want the listener to know. I think you should not tell them. I think people

00:01:26   should just be surprised when it's Cortex-MIS. You never know when it's

00:01:29   going to be Cortex-MIS. I don't think it's a surprise if

00:01:32   something doesn't arrive. I don't think like, "Oh! Surprise! No episode!" I don't

00:01:36   think people think like that. Well, I mean, we know we know there's the

00:01:39   regular, right? There's Christmas Cortex-MIS,

00:01:42   of course, right? There's a summer Cortex-MIS. And then

00:01:45   there are, you know, maybe eight to ten random Cortex-MISs

00:01:50   throughout the year. There are many attempts at more cortex misses around the year. But Myke always

00:01:56   pulls me back people. He's trying to eek an extra cortex miss out of Myke. You know innocently

00:02:03   messaging him and now it's like oh no we're going to record a show today. So I'm recording a show

00:02:06   today with you and I'm very happy to be here Myke. I'll tell you something I was very happy about

00:02:12   In the reddit from the last episode

00:02:14   Many people who had applied for the animation illustration position

00:02:21   in CTP Grey Industries

00:02:23   Were posting their videos in the reddit thread, which was really cool

00:02:29   So there's a bunch in there

00:02:31   I'll include a couple links in the show notes to some threads where you'll find some of the videos that were put in the in

00:02:36   in the Reddit.

00:02:38   And it was just really interesting to see

00:02:40   the different takes that people had.

00:02:42   And I really liked it.

00:02:43   So I'll encourage anybody else to post in the Reddit

00:02:47   their videos that they submitted

00:02:49   if they're interested in sharing them,

00:02:51   because it was really cool to see.

00:02:52   And also I think considering how much we've spoken

00:02:54   about this and you've kind of gone through the process,

00:02:57   I think it adds a lot of context

00:02:59   to kind of the way that it's going through.

00:03:00   And maybe people can draw lines

00:03:02   as to type of thing you're looking for

00:03:03   by looking at what maybe didn't get through.

00:03:05   I think it's really interesting to see how it's evolving.

00:03:08   - I was kind of surprised at how much interest

00:03:11   there was around this, but yeah,

00:03:12   I saw a whole bunch of people were,

00:03:14   seemed to be having fun posting those applications

00:03:17   and talking about them.

00:03:19   I even saw people were like,

00:03:21   it was like a little group of people

00:03:22   who were also each critiquing the applications

00:03:26   and giving feedback.

00:03:27   The internet always surprises me in these ways,

00:03:30   and this is one of those times of like,

00:03:31   oh, there was a lot of interest in this

00:03:33   lot of interesting discussion. So yes, if you are listening to Cortex, presumably this is the thing

00:03:39   that is probably of interest to you since you've stuck with us through whatever it is so far,

00:03:45   two or three episodes of me talking about hiring a person. So yeah, if you want to see a bit more

00:03:52   of the behind the scenes of that, Myke will put the appropriate links in the show notes.

00:03:56   >> Whilst we're talking about other people promoting something that they're doing,

00:04:01   I would like to promote something that I'm doing.

00:04:06   So I have a new project

00:04:08   that I wanted to let the Cortex listeners know about.

00:04:10   I have a question, Myke.

00:04:13   Is it a podcast?

00:04:14   It is a podcast.

00:04:15   Really?

00:04:16   How could you have guessed?

00:04:16   How could you have guessed?

00:04:18   I have to say it seems quite out of character for you

00:04:19   to be starting a new podcast.

00:04:22   I'm very surprised by this.

00:04:25   It's a show called "Ungeniased."

00:04:26   And "Ungeniased" explores weird and wonderful Wikipedia articles.

00:04:28   So this is me and my Relay FM co-founder, Stephen Hackett.

00:04:31   We did this show together in like 2011.

00:04:34   It was our first ever show together

00:04:36   and we decided to bring it back for a new season.

00:04:39   And when you listen to "Ungeniused",

00:04:41   you will gain some interesting knowledge

00:04:44   about things you'll probably never use again.

00:04:46   (laughing)

00:04:47   - Fantastic.

00:04:48   - That's what we promise.

00:04:49   The first episode is about Action Park,

00:04:53   which is probably the most dangerous water park

00:04:56   in US history.

00:04:57   - Oh.

00:04:58   I'm gonna say for now. But I want to know more. I want to know more right now. Where do I need to go for this?

00:05:02   Relay.fm/ungenius and there will be a link in our show notes too. All right, go check it out listeners.

00:05:07   It's a fun show. It's something kind of different for us. I really I really I really enjoy making it

00:05:13   And I think people will enjoy listening to it. We've got some really weird stuff in the pipeline.

00:05:18   I do I do have to say

00:05:21   I've seen a little bit of the the behind the scenes stuff and I can see like you put you put a lot of work into

00:05:25   to this one and it sounds super interesting. What I want to know Myke is how on earth do

00:05:29   you have time in your schedule for another podcast? How many podcasts is this now in

00:05:35   total that you do?

00:05:37   Eight maybe?

00:05:38   Eight maybe?

00:05:40   Well I forget the number. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, that

00:05:49   can't be right. One, two...

00:05:51   list them out Myke do the shows what are the shows what do you do analog okay

00:05:55   analog bonanza bonanza connected connected cortex cortex remaster

00:06:02   remaster the pan addict the pan addict thoroughly considered thoroughly

00:06:07   considered ungenius ungenius an upgrade and upgrade okay so that's nine

00:06:16   podcasts. Yeah. That's a lot. It's a lot. But it's my job. This is what I do for a living.

00:06:22   Oh, is it? Believe it or not. I did not realize that. That's amazing. I don't know how you do it.

00:06:29   I am super impressed that you are able to do as many as you do.

00:06:35   And I enjoy listening to a whole bunch of them and I'm glad you make them.

00:06:39   And I just don't know how you do it. I'm very impressed. And there's yet another one.

00:06:43   Yeah, another one. And there's more on the way.

00:06:46   More on the way!

00:06:47   Can't stop, won't stop.

00:06:48   up.

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00:08:32   Just before we started recording today, you tweeted something that piqued my interest immediately.

00:08:39   It was a photograph of two Apple devices, one on top of the other.

00:08:42   One of them is an interesting color. It's the space gray color and it's a MacBook.

00:08:48   You've bought a MacBook.

00:08:50   I have bought a MacBook.

00:08:53   Okay.

00:08:53   A MacBook One.

00:08:55   The MacBook One.

00:08:55   The little tiny one with the single USB port.

00:08:58   I'm recording on it right now as we speak.

00:09:01   Oh my.

00:09:01   I finished setting it up a mere hour ago before we started.

00:09:05   Did you like forget to bring a Mac or something?

00:09:09   On your trip here?

00:09:13   I didn't bring a Mac on my trip. I had this shipped to my parents house

00:09:17   waiting for me because Apple stuff is way cheaper in America

00:09:21   I knew I wanted to get one of these and so I thought

00:09:25   well it'd be foolish to buy it in the UK and I won't need it until I'm in my

00:09:29   house and I'm recording a podcast with Myke so I just had it shipped in advance

00:09:33   waiting for me in a little box and then finished setting it up this morning so

00:09:38   that I could be recording this podcast with you right now. Why did you buy this?

00:09:41   Why did you want one? I mean you have a MacBook Pro right? Okay yeah I have a

00:09:45   MacBook Pro. Hey look no judgment I have two iPads right like I'm just asking. I

00:09:51   don't feel I don't feel judged but what I feel is is I posted this because like

00:09:57   Okay, so I got this little MacBook One, and I brought with me on my travels my 12.9-inch

00:10:04   iPad Pro.

00:10:06   And it's just funny when you unbox the MacBook One next to an iPad Pro, because it's a tiny

00:10:14   little thing.

00:10:15   It's a weird moment when you realize, "Wait a minute, I own an iPad that is significantly

00:10:21   bigger than my laptop, than my Mac laptop."

00:10:26   weird little moment. And so I just I thought like oh this is this is kind of

00:10:30   interesting that these two like the size difference in these two things it's it

00:10:34   feels like a bizarre crossover moment in technology like this like this should

00:10:40   never happen but here we are like we're through the looking-glass people iPads

00:10:43   are bigger than Macs and so I just thought oh let me take a picture of this

00:10:46   like I thought this was kind of interesting. As always with these things

00:10:49   on Twitter it seemed like a surprising reaction from just a bunch of people who

00:10:53   were like what the hell is going on like what is happening what's this craziness

00:10:57   like why would anybody do this and so as always with this stuff I just find

00:11:00   myself surprised that what from my perspective seemed like oh I just

00:11:04   thought about some stuff for the summer and I made a little decision and I got a

00:11:06   piece of equipment and then there's there seems to be like people freaking

00:11:09   out and like rioting in the streets about like why is this happening I don't

00:11:12   understand explain it to me and I feel like I don't know what to explain it's

00:11:16   all it's all quite reasonable from my perspective I think part of it comes from

00:11:19   on the fact that this is a controversial computer, right?

00:11:23   That it has the single USB-C port,

00:11:25   which is kind of weird and not widely supported and adopted.

00:11:29   It's super thin and it has been underpowered

00:11:32   and is a little better now.

00:11:33   And it's just a strange computer in many ways.

00:11:37   The keyboard is different and not a lot of people like it.

00:11:40   So just seeing anybody buy this machine

00:11:45   over the last few months that it's been available

00:11:48   has just always been like, hmm, what is your reason for this?

00:11:52   So that is why it's interesting to me,

00:11:54   especially because a lot of the stuff that you do on a Mac

00:11:59   takes probably more computing power

00:12:03   than this thing comfortably gives.

00:12:06   Because you use a Mac now for very specific tasks, right?

00:12:10   We've outlined this on the show,

00:12:11   making videos, recording podcasts, and playing games.

00:12:14   And I don't think that this computer

00:12:16   would be really good at any of those things.

00:12:19   So like partly when I wanted to talk to you about this,

00:12:24   I just wanted to check that you knew that.

00:12:26   Oh yeah. Did you think maybe I was like,

00:12:29   I just didn't know what I was even buying. I just went, Oh, shiny. Right.

00:12:32   Look how small and light I like that.

00:12:36   So first of all, I was perfectly aware of this. Let me, let me, uh, let me,

00:12:43   let me walk you through this. Right. So, uh, I'm actually,

00:12:46   I was in preparation for the summer,

00:12:50   which I have been dreading for months

00:12:51   and referenced many times.

00:12:52   Like I have the summer of just a ton of flights

00:12:55   and family stuff and just like so much travel occurring

00:12:59   that I'm just exhausted thinking about it,

00:13:00   you know, and tallying up how many flights I'm gonna do.

00:13:03   And also thinking that the course of this summer

00:13:06   is essentially that I have pretty much three months

00:13:11   in a row of a very heavy, constant travel.

00:13:16   So I'm going to be moving around a lot, right?

00:13:20   And I've been thinking about and preparing for this

00:13:25   in a whole bunch of ways of trying to think about

00:13:28   how can I make this summer as tolerable as possible?

00:13:32   And also a question of, okay, I know that I am going to,

00:13:38   in one way, because I'm doing so much stuff,

00:13:41   I have to ramp down some of the work that I'm doing.

00:13:44   Like I can't keep up my normal work schedule

00:13:47   and then also add on top of it,

00:13:49   like all of this travel

00:13:51   and like family obligations and things.

00:13:53   Like it's just not possible.

00:13:54   But I do need to do some work,

00:13:57   like what's happening at this very moment.

00:13:59   Like we're recording an episode of the podcast.

00:14:01   Stuff still needs to happen.

00:14:03   And so I've been thinking about it for a while

00:14:05   about like, what am I gonna do?

00:14:06   What am I gonna do?

00:14:07   And I was kind of running through

00:14:11   all of the pieces of software that I use

00:14:13   and I was essentially working on an article

00:14:15   trying to outline a bunch of these thoughts.

00:14:17   And in the process of writing that article,

00:14:20   I came to the conclusion of, I know what I can do.

00:14:23   I have a solution for this.

00:14:24   What I'm going to do is I'm going to buy the MacBook One

00:14:29   and bring that with me as my work computer

00:14:35   for a few very specific tasks.

00:14:40   And while it is not the most powerful computer,

00:14:45   I did test out the thing that matters most to me,

00:14:49   which is podcasting on the road.

00:14:52   Is this a machine that can do podcasting on the road?

00:14:55   And so what I actually did was

00:14:58   I uploaded a couple of audio files

00:15:03   to a private and anonymous Dropbox URL.

00:15:07   And then I went into an Apple store

00:15:09   and I went to one of the MacBook ones

00:15:11   that they had on the table,

00:15:13   and I downloaded those files

00:15:16   and was doing some audio editing with them

00:15:19   in the store on the MacBook,

00:15:21   just to make sure, like, can I do this?

00:15:23   Can this machine comfortably handle doing audio?

00:15:28   And like, it doesn't have to be the fastest thing,

00:15:30   it doesn't have to export these things, you know,

00:15:33   at the drop of a hat,

00:15:35   but can I edit audio without it stuttering?

00:15:37   can it just handle all of this stuff?

00:15:39   And it handled it completely fine.

00:15:41   And I was looking at some of the CPU numbers on it

00:15:45   about like how powerful is this

00:15:47   compared to previous computers that I own.

00:15:49   And while people talk about how it's super slow,

00:15:51   but I also look back at some of the old computers I own

00:15:54   and realize, yes, but I've made videos on computers

00:15:57   that were way slower than this thing currently is.

00:15:59   - It did just get a lot better for the record.

00:16:02   Like a lot of the complaints about it's underperformance

00:16:05   were when it was originally released.

00:16:08   - Yeah, and the new one is better,

00:16:11   but it's something like 20% better.

00:16:13   Yeah, it's still not like a top of the line

00:16:16   computing machine, it's not that.

00:16:19   But as always with thinking about work, right,

00:16:25   and thinking about the way that we're doing stuff,

00:16:27   like what I'm always trying to look for

00:16:29   is what is the appropriate tool for the task at hand?

00:16:34   task at hand. And this machine really seemed to just fit perfectly as an appropriate tool

00:16:41   for the task at hand. Because I was looking at my brick of obligation, my 15 inch, 30

00:16:50   pound MacBook Pro, and I thought, "I will not bring you anywhere, machine!" Right? Especially

00:16:58   with the knowledge that, like what I'm doing today, that over the course of the summer,

00:17:03   number of times I'm going to need and open this machine is maybe once or twice

00:17:08   a week. Like, I do not want to have to bring this incredible, heavy, bulky, big

00:17:13   thing in what I'm trying to make, like the smallest, lightest possible suitcase

00:17:18   that I can bring with me everywhere that I go. So it's like, I want to maximize for

00:17:22   travelness and this machine has adequate power to do the things that I needed to

00:17:28   do. And if it, if I have to let it run for half an hour to export an episode of

00:17:33   of a podcast because it doesn't do it super fast.

00:17:35   It doesn't matter.

00:17:36   You know, I can just let it run.

00:17:37   All that matters is when I'm using it, it doesn't stutter and it seemed to be the case.

00:17:42   And even some of the complaints that people had about this computer, about say like the

00:17:45   keyboard.

00:17:47   While I don't love the keyboard, it doesn't matter because...

00:17:51   You don't write on it.

00:17:52   Exactly.

00:17:53   Doing podcasting or if I'm doing a little bit of animating or illustrating, I'm not using

00:17:57   the keyboard, right?

00:17:58   It's like I have brought my MX wireless mouse with me to use as an input device for this.

00:18:03   I'm not going to use the keyboard.

00:18:05   The keyboard for my work is just a row of buttons that happen to do things.

00:18:09   If I'm going to type something, I'm going to take out my lovely iPad Pro and I'm going

00:18:13   to write something on that because I love that keyboard and that thing is absolutely

00:18:17   fantastic.

00:18:20   Even though it seemed kind of strange, I came to the conclusion that this pair of machines,

00:18:26   My big iPad and now a tiny little adorable MacBook is actually a fantastic working pair

00:18:35   for me if I'm going to be doing a lot of travel.

00:18:39   And I was just setting it up and just playing around with it a little bit and so far it's

00:18:43   like this is great!

00:18:46   This thing seems like it's well suited to the task and I absolutely love how small it

00:18:52   is.

00:18:53   I'm a big fan, big fan of the MacBook adorables.

00:18:57   - I've gotten close to doing this exact thing

00:18:59   multiple times for the exact same reasons.

00:19:01   That I am about to go on a trip

00:19:03   and I'm gonna be taking my MacBook Pro with me

00:19:05   in case of podcast editing emergencies.

00:19:08   And I couldn't be less happy about this scenario.

00:19:11   - Yeah.

00:19:12   - Because I'm taking my 9.7 inch iPad Pro

00:19:15   and this like huge honking piece of metal.

00:19:18   - With things.

00:19:19   - Which feels like comparatively it weighs a million pounds.

00:19:23   (laughing)

00:19:24   - It really does.

00:19:25   - Because I wouldn't even know my iPad was in my bag.

00:19:28   - It really does.

00:19:30   - So I've considered this for the same reason of like,

00:19:34   honestly now I only use a MacBook

00:19:37   when I travel for podcast editing.

00:19:41   So really I need a computer that is more suited

00:19:45   to that exact task.

00:19:46   So thin and light is exactly what I'm looking for.

00:19:50   But I've held off on the MacBook.

00:19:52   I was gonna get one, I thought to myself,

00:19:55   when they were revved, so the one that you just bought,

00:19:57   so it'd be a bit more powerful.

00:20:00   But now there are rumors on the horizon

00:20:02   of the new MacBook Pro, and basically,

00:20:05   if that is much thinner and much lighter

00:20:07   than what I've currently got, it's gonna be an improvement,

00:20:10   even if it's not the thinnest and lightest.

00:20:13   And it will also have the power that I'm used to.

00:20:15   So I'm gonna wait to see what that looks like,

00:20:18   but I'm considering doing the same thing,

00:20:20   because I think if anybody can draw some kind of like

00:20:24   overall feeling that me and you both have,

00:20:26   and you know, people say that I seem to agree with you a lot.

00:20:29   - It's because I'm super reasonable, that's why.

00:20:31   - Of course.

00:20:32   I think if we just think about some things in the same way,

00:20:34   and one of those things that me and you really seem

00:20:36   to agree on a lot is having the right tool

00:20:39   for the right job.

00:20:40   - Yeah.

00:20:41   - And the MacBook Pro that I have right now

00:20:43   is not the right tool for the right job

00:20:45   because it is big and heavy because it's powerful, right?

00:20:49   it has the maximum power, but I don't need maximum power.

00:20:53   I need maximum portability now.

00:20:56   Because I'm only using this machine

00:20:58   when I am away from home.

00:21:00   So I need the best machine for traveling.

00:21:03   So if the new MacBook Pro, the thin and light MacBook Pro

00:21:06   isn't thin enough and light enough,

00:21:08   then I will go the MacBook route.

00:21:10   - What you say there, it makes me think

00:21:13   of the sunk cost fallacy of where people overvalve

00:21:18   overvalue investments that they have made in the past for a thing that they

00:21:25   are working on when thinking about decisions today. And so the way

00:21:30   you think about it is you and I have each in the past bought MacBook Pros

00:21:35   because I got mine two summers ago when I was when I was looking at a similar

00:21:40   thing of like I am going to be away for the summer but my work was also

00:21:44   relatively different than and I was planning on doing a significant amount

00:21:48   of work and it's like okay well this machine is the best machine at that time

00:21:50   to get I'm gonna be working on it a bunch I'm gonna do a bunch of animating

00:21:54   like I was using it as a primary production machine back then so it's

00:21:58   like okay so I got that whatever it was two years ago I think and I own that

00:22:02   machine and so in some ways it feels foolish to just get another tiny laptop

00:22:08   But it's a case of sunk cost fallacy. If I didn't own that MacBook Pro and I was standing in an Apple store, laptop-less, and looking around and thinking,

00:22:20   "What is the best computer for me to take with me this summer?" There's no way I would pick that MacBook Pro.

00:22:28   It wouldn't even be in the running as a possible machine to take.

00:22:34   And that's an example of trying to reframe decision-making in the context of now.

00:22:43   What are the resources available now? What are the requirements for what you need now?

00:22:48   What is the best solution to solve this problem now?

00:22:51   Don't get distracted by the sunk cost fallacy of, "Oh, I used to do things this way."

00:22:56   right? Or I happen to have this equipment currently. It's like, no, no. What is the solution

00:23:02   now that is the optimal solution for this problem? And as you mentioned, I think it just occurred to

00:23:09   me, but maybe one of the reasons why people are, you know, seemed on Twitter to have a

00:23:13   surprising amount of reaction to me posting this was like, was as you said, this is,

00:23:19   we're recording this probably literally days before Apple might be announcing

00:23:25   new MacBook Pros, like it seems very likely that they're going to announce new MacBook Pros at WWDC.

00:23:30   And it vaguely crossed my mind, but that was also a case of, well, if they announce new MacBooks,

00:23:38   that still doesn't help me this summer, right? Even if I could literally go to WWDC and Tim Cook

00:23:45   was handing out MacBook Pros to everybody and it's like, I'm going to fly to WWDC,

00:23:49   like and Tim's going to hand me a MacBook Pro, right?

00:23:53   Even if I could get MacBook Pros on day one,

00:23:57   it doesn't change the fact that, well, there's some things that I need to do

00:24:00   before their announcement, right?

00:24:02   It's just like, well, I need a computer now for things that happen this week.

00:24:08   And if I bring my MacBook Pro, that means I'm traveling with this MacBook Pro

00:24:13   for at least five weeks before I come to a break where I could like swap over machines.

00:24:19   It's like, it's not going to happen.

00:24:20   It's not going to happen.

00:24:21   So it's, yeah, I think you're right.

00:24:23   It is a case of trying to think about what is the best tool for the job available.

00:24:29   And even though it's a funny little machine and there's a bunch of complaints about it,

00:24:34   I think it is the best solution for me right now, and also thinking about the future of my work.

00:24:42   You know, we talk a lot about how we have both been transitioning to iPad Pros

00:24:48   and doing more and more of our work on there.

00:24:50   And I've been thinking about that a lot.

00:24:53   But the one thing that I wonder,

00:24:56   even a year or two from now,

00:24:59   that I might not ever be able to get away from

00:25:01   is doing podcasting on a Mac for a variety of reasons.

00:25:05   Like I'm very curious to see if that's a thing

00:25:07   that I can ever get rid of.

00:25:09   And I'm not super convinced that I will be able to do that.

00:25:14   And so I wonder if this is just going to end up being

00:25:19   my new working solution for a very long time

00:25:22   in the same way that I used to have a Mac desktop and a laptop that I would work with

00:25:27   that now my default computer setup will be the biggest iPad I can bring with me and the

00:25:34   smallest Mac that I can bring with me.

00:25:36   And now this is just for the next couple of years maybe the default traveling situation.

00:25:42   I wonder.

00:25:43   This whole scenario is one of the best and worst things about doing the type of work

00:25:49   that we do, which is creating things that are a part of the Internet. Because what

00:25:55   happens is you end up moving with the times and as computers become more

00:26:02   powerful the type of work that we do on them becomes more complex. So you

00:26:07   end up in a scenario where your workflows are changing and the tools

00:26:13   are changing around you so you buy new ones and you adapt and you change. Which

00:26:18   is why we spend so much money on this stuff but it's because we both see it as a necessary

00:26:25   thing to get the work done in the best fastest most productive way. The interesting and the

00:26:34   difficult part about being self-employed is again like just talking about you know getting this

00:26:45   this machine it relates to a bunch of our conversations in the past about how

00:26:48   when you are on your own and when it is just you, you are responsible for

00:26:54   building the environment around you. And that environment is

00:27:01   things like what are the email clients that you're using for example right or

00:27:07   how do you arrange your calendar or how do you think about routines or what are

00:27:13   the tools that you're using because there's nobody else who's saying welcome to giant

00:27:20   corporate co. enjoy using outlook express forever and that's just not a decision that

00:27:25   you make it's like every every tiny bit about the working world and the environment that

00:27:33   are operating in is under your control, which is amazing, but it is also your

00:27:42   responsibility and obligation to continually reevaluate as part of your

00:27:49   job. I think it's really interesting that there's this phenomenon, I don't

00:27:53   have a better way to describe it, it's how I notice that things can become

00:27:59   invisible to people, like things that are just either the way they do stuff or

00:28:04   objects in their environment. It's like if you are, for example like with this laptop of

00:28:10   having an old MacBook Pro, it's like the MacBook Pro can in a way become an

00:28:15   invisible thing that you just don't think about or you just don't reevaluate. And I feel that way about

00:28:21   routines and about all kinds of tools that it is in the course of human life, right?

00:28:28   It is just valuable to consciously cast the eye of your mind and the focus of your attention

00:28:39   on all of the aspects of your life because these things just become invisible and they

00:28:45   become normal and you don't re-evaluate them and you don't think, "If I was starting anew

00:28:52   today, is this the way that I would set up things?

00:28:55   is the way that I'm currently doing things now the most effective way to work?

00:29:00   It's just very, very useful to consciously refocus your mind on these things from time

00:29:05   to time.

00:29:06   And it is not easy to do.

00:29:08   It's not easy to do, but I think it is a useful endeavor, and it's partly why you and I do

00:29:16   this show together, and we talk for many hours about, in some sense, seemingly minor decisions

00:29:22   about which tool is the best under which circumstances.

00:29:25   But it's because we are both aware of this thing of like rethink

00:29:29   your environment, rethink your tools, rethink the way that you do things

00:29:33   and just look about for if there is a better way

00:29:38   to do what you are currently doing.

00:29:40   I think it's like we work adjacent to an industry

00:29:46   that is constantly moving and evolving.

00:29:50   that's true it's very beneficial for us to remain nimble and be willing to adapt and change

00:29:58   so we're actually able to look at and and work with and around the industry that we're focused on

00:30:04   at least that's what i tell myself when i'm spending 500 pounds in the apple store

00:30:09   whatever you got to do man whatever you got to do

00:30:19   I do have one thing to say, Myke, about this MacBook Adorable.

00:30:22   Is that what we're calling it now?

00:30:24   Well, it's adorable!

00:30:26   It is, it is! I like it though.

00:30:28   You know, but it's like, I just, it's so funny because I just keep thinking like,

00:30:31   look at this big powerful like iPad Pro, it's such a beast, like it's an amazing work machine.

00:30:36   And then, and then next to it was like, oh, look at that adorable little Mac.

00:30:40   Oh, look at that little guy.

00:30:42   Yeah, that's how I feel about my 9.7 inch iPad.

00:30:45   I have more feelings towards it because he's so little.

00:30:48   Right. There's a slight tangent here, but I remember reading years ago that this is an actual

00:30:55   human cognitive bias. That humans are more forgiving of problems with objects that are

00:31:03   smaller than objects that are bigger. Just inanimate objects. So that if a thing that is

00:31:08   a smaller physical object doesn't work perfectly, humans are much more likely to forgive it than a

00:31:12   big object that doesn't work perfectly. So, but it's like I can feel this bias in me looking at

00:31:17   at these two devices, it's like, "Hey little guy, hey little Mac, you up for recording

00:31:22   a podcast today?

00:31:23   Like, can you do this?

00:31:24   Like, let's give it a go.

00:31:25   Like, let's give it a try."

00:31:26   Right, whereas if I was trying to do something on the iPad Pro, the big one, and it didn't

00:31:29   work, it'd be like, "You need to do this right every time, buddy.

00:31:31   Like come on, we're all lying on you here."

00:31:33   You know, it's just like, this is not an appropriate feeling for inanimate objects, but it totally

00:31:38   is.

00:31:39   So along those lines of, "Hey buddy, are you up for the podcast today?"

00:31:43   The thing that did not occur to me as I was setting up the MacBook Adorable just this

00:31:48   morning finishing before we started is that it does only have one port and that one port

00:31:55   is connected to my microphone and we are rapidly running down the battery on my never fully

00:32:04   charged MacBook Adorable.

00:32:07   So will we get to the end of the show before my battery runs out?

00:32:12   Stay tuned to find out.

00:32:14   Do we have sufficient time?

00:32:16   It'll give me a warning, you know.

00:32:18   Don't you worry buddy, let's just keep going.

00:32:21   What's next on your list, Myke?

00:32:24   You...

00:32:25   I can hear it in your voice.

00:32:28   Well now, I've got something to worry about now.

00:32:31   No, no, just don't think about it.

00:32:33   What's next?

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00:34:01   You recently put out a new video which was a kind of different style, different kind

00:34:07   of even from a business perspective type of crossover video with in a nutshell KurtzGazza.

00:34:18   Long time listeners will remember me and you trying to pronounce this channel quite some

00:34:23   time ago and you put together a video about the left brain and right brain which people

00:34:28   should go and definitely watch.

00:34:30   But rather than talking about the video itself, I'm interested in why and how this came about,

00:34:38   this like kind of two-part crossover video.

00:34:41   So Philip, who is the main writer behind Quartz Gazette, he and I have been sort of colleagues

00:34:48   and business associates for a while.

00:34:51   I don't remember exactly how we met in the first place, but I don't know.

00:34:54   We've known each other for maybe about a year and a half at this point.

00:34:58   And we had always just vaguely talked about doing some kind of collaboration at some stage.

00:35:05   And like with, I think with many YouTube creators, you don't necessarily know what it is that

00:35:09   you want to do, but it's useful just to have it in the back of your mind about, "Is there

00:35:16   an interesting thing that we can do?"

00:35:18   And so every once in a while we would just talk and sort of discuss projects that we

00:35:24   we were working on, sometimes because we were trying to make sure we didn't accidentally

00:35:27   overlap with each other, which did occur sometimes of one or the other of us trying to avoid

00:35:34   a topic because we knew that the other one was doing it, because it's like, "Boy, we

00:35:38   don't want to get messed up with that of releasing a video the day after on the same thing."

00:35:44   But at some point, we eventually came across these two topics, one of which is about how

00:35:52   your mind may be composed of these separate, autonomous, smaller elements.

00:36:01   And then he was thinking about a video about how your physical body is composed of these

00:36:06   separate autonomous smaller elements that exist in and of themselves.

00:36:10   And as we were talking about it, we realized, "Oh, this is actually nice.

00:36:14   These are related, like they're two sides of the same coin.

00:36:19   They both are touching on the notion of how you as a person are not as singular as you

00:36:25   think you are.

00:36:26   Like you are a combination of a bunch of smaller things that can exist independently of what

00:36:31   you think of as you.

00:36:32   And so we were talking about this and thought, "Oh, this is nice.

00:36:36   This works very well together."

00:36:38   And so this was actually, we looked it up, the first conversations about this were back

00:36:44   in November.

00:36:47   And so just to give people the time frame, the final videos were uploaded at the end

00:36:51   of May.

00:36:52   And we were working on those videos for that length of time, doing other projects at the

00:36:58   same time, but this was in the works and these things can sometimes take quite a long time

00:37:03   to go from initial discussion to final completed output.

00:37:09   I think from the style of your videos, for very different reasons.

00:37:13   Oh yes, why do you say that?

00:37:15   There is a level of animation in the Kuzcozop videos which is very different to yours, you

00:37:22   know?

00:37:23   Oh yeah.

00:37:24   And I think that you are a one-man band and I believe that there are multiple people that

00:37:30   work on the Kuzcozop videos.

00:37:32   Yeah there's a big team that works on those things.

00:37:34   An ungodly amount of human hours goes into the development of those videos and it certainly

00:37:41   shows in the animation.

00:37:42   I was watching the videos and there are like these parts

00:37:46   where they create these like mythical beasts as it were.

00:37:48   There are these, like part animal, part robotic beasts,

00:37:53   I guess, and the amount of tiny detail of movement

00:37:58   on, I just can't believe it.

00:38:01   I cannot believe how this stuff exists on YouTube.

00:38:05   It doesn't make sense in my brain.

00:38:09   The quality is insane.

00:38:10   And that's what it means, like the difference is

00:38:11   There's a team who make incredibly complex things

00:38:14   and then there's just you who's making things

00:38:16   that are difficult to make for just one person, right?

00:38:18   And that's probably why it ends up taking,

00:38:20   even though they're very different,

00:38:22   the same amount of time.

00:38:24   - Yeah, that's exactly it.

00:38:25   Like the course 'cause that path was a much straighter line

00:38:28   than was the production of mine.

00:38:31   Because as a slight behind the scenes thing,

00:38:35   it was at some point in very late February,

00:38:41   I took the script that I had been working on for that whole length of time, so from

00:38:45   November until late February.

00:38:48   And I was walking around and I was thinking about the video and then it crossed my mind

00:38:52   about how to do the thing that I eventually did, which was to film it from a first-person

00:38:58   perspective as a way to try to explain some of the complicated things that are going on.

00:39:03   And once that idea came into my head, I thought, "Oh, this is a really great way to explain

00:39:09   this phenomenon that is otherwise difficult to explain.

00:39:13   But if I'm going to film myself doing these things,

00:39:18   I need to throw out everything that I've written so far.

00:39:20   This whole script just does not work at all

00:39:22   if this is the way that I'm going to explain this.

00:39:25   And so I started over, right?

00:39:26   I started brand new over,

00:39:29   essentially halfway through the collaboration

00:39:32   between the two of us because it was like,

00:39:34   "Nope, this script won't work if I do it this way.

00:39:36   "Start again.

00:39:38   Select all, delete, and start typing.

00:39:40   This is a super pedantic question, but I have a good reason for it.

00:39:44   You didn't really start over again though, did you?

00:39:46   Like, I know what you mean, but all of the work that you've done to that point

00:39:51   was useful in helping you create the final product faster.

00:39:55   Yeah, that is true, right? I mean—

00:39:56   Like, if you would have had this idea in November,

00:40:00   it may have still taken you that amount of time to make it.

00:40:03   No, you are totally right.

00:40:04   And like, for example, I didn't have to redo the research.

00:40:07   Exactly. That doesn't occur. The reason I say just like I'm starting over is because as we have

00:40:13   discussed before that my writing process is really very largely an editing and re-editing process

00:40:19   and so that that's the thing that I mean like I know that even if I'm thinking about doing it

00:40:24   this way I have to do just a ton of drafts before it becomes a thing. Yeah it is basically new text

00:40:33   file kind of start over right yeah and it was it was really interesting because again in in working

00:40:40   with Philip you know he saw some of the drafts you know we were we were each commenting on the

00:40:45   other person's script you know trying to help each other along but he he saw unfold the thing which

00:40:50   I always feel when I'm working but I thought oh maybe I'm kidding myself about how basically like

00:40:57   this basically how my script is not very good for the first 15 or 20 drafts and then it is the last

00:41:07   one or two drafts where suddenly I feel like this is the thing all of a sudden and now it is good

00:41:13   and it was interesting to kind of get that confirmed from somebody back of like "boy what

00:41:19   did you do between this draft and the last draft because suddenly this really feels like a thing"

00:41:25   and the previous ones all felt like they were kind of rough.

00:41:29   Like, you know, you could film it and it would be fine, but it's not really fantastic.

00:41:33   When do you start reading them aloud?

00:41:35   I start reading them aloud when there is something to read aloud.

00:41:39   So I usually end up writing, depending on the script, something like

00:41:44   5,000 words of garbage, let's say, of just like thoughts of how to explain stuff.

00:41:51   And that's just largely typing and I end up with that big text file.

00:41:55   And then that is the point where I just start reading those notes aloud

00:41:59   in my office, you know, with my standing desk.

00:42:03   And the thunder.

00:42:03   And that's right, and the thunder.

00:42:05   I was actually, you put this idea in my mind, Myke, I can't get rid of,

00:42:11   about being like, you know, in some sort of evil lair.

00:42:14   Because when I was working on this at one point,

00:42:18   I saw myself like through your eyes as though you would be standing there and like,

00:42:23   like oh this is slightly uncomfortable it's like I am standing in a room I am

00:42:27   reading out loud a script that has to do with horrific brain surgery that's been

00:42:33   done to people right I'm making gestures with my hands about how I think this is

00:42:39   going to go on the screen as I am reading out loud as I am playing thunder

00:42:43   sounds and I was also playing like this classical violin album of Bach recordings

00:42:50   I was like, for a moment, it's like,

00:42:53   I see what I must look like to Myke in this moment.

00:42:58   - Let me talk about your brains.

00:43:00   - Yeah, it's just--

00:43:01   - There's someone inside you working against you.

00:43:05   - Yeah, I'm like, I'm moving my hands

00:43:07   and there's this music in the thunder

00:43:09   and I was like, maybe Myke has a point.

00:43:11   Maybe Myke has a point about what he said.

00:43:13   - You know, like I imagine someone wants

00:43:15   to just come in to check something, right?

00:43:17   They just open the door, like just to peek in,

00:43:19   know to say I don't know oh there's cake in the lobby and they just like back away.

00:43:24   Maybe that happened. I don't know.

00:43:28   Because yeah I basically I wondered if like there is a correlation between

00:43:34   you reading what you have allowed and the script getting good.

00:43:37   Yeah but I do um I would say easily more than half of the drafts are done in this semi-allowed

00:43:47   stage or completely allowed stage. And it's, but it's like, I don't know what it is, but I can just

00:43:52   feel towards the end when something finally clicks. Like this is the rhythm, like this is the

00:44:00   exact way. A surprising thing that often happens is like the very last draft I will radically move

00:44:07   around a bunch of paragraphs. Like the paragraphs might not change, but I'll suddenly realize like,

00:44:11   oh these are all in the wrong order. Why on earth was I ever writing them in this order? Like I've

00:44:16   I've been writing them in this order for months. This doesn't make any sense

00:44:18   This one has to go at the beginning not at the end. These two have to go together this one in the middle

00:44:23   I can just take this whole thing out and it's like boom suddenly it just kind of gels

00:44:26   I understand that because you know every now and then I will have some kind of flash of an idea when editing a show

00:44:32   Mm-hmm. It's like oh I could put the girl from Ipanema in here. Mm-hmm, you know and it's like this is a great

00:44:38   I'd like I get it

00:44:39   It's like you just have these like random flashes of ideas and then everything just starts to fall into place

00:44:45   Yeah, and the having someone else see the drafts as I was doing them

00:44:50   it was it was just interesting to have it confirmed back to me that

00:44:55   It's not in my imagination that this thing is occurring

00:44:59   Somebody else sees it and somebody else comments that suddenly it's way better, and I don't know why and it's like yes

00:45:06   That's right perfect like great now. It's ready to go

00:45:08   I thought it was ready to go and you agree that this final thing is suddenly much better

00:45:12   I am not crazy like I'm not imagining that it takes this long like someone else sees

00:45:17   That I do need to go through all of these revisions before it becomes the final thing that I'm ready and happy to record

00:45:25   So it's an interesting process considering the changes that you're currently embarking on in your production process

00:45:31   Mmm, what did it feel like to work so closely with someone? Well, it was just it was just interesting to

00:45:39   have the feedback back and forth on what we were doing.

00:45:43   I would say like this was...

00:45:45   in the YouTube world people talk about collaborations.

00:45:49   Doing collaboration videos all the time.

00:45:51   And I didn't use that word for what we were doing.

00:45:55   I kept using the word crossover.

00:45:57   Like what we're doing here is like a crossover video.

00:46:01   So we weren't deeply collaborating.

00:46:04   And that's what made that word feel like the wrong word.

00:46:07   Like I was not popping up in the middle of a Quartz Gazette video and being like, "Hey!"

00:46:12   Or you weren't narrating that one or something.

00:46:14   Yeah, yeah, like we weren't doing those reverse kind of things.

00:46:18   Personally, I think those things are very hard to do. I have seen a few that are absolutely amazing

00:46:26   and I will always hold up the Destin from Smarter Every Day and Derek of Veritasium.

00:46:34   they did a crossover video on the Coriolis effect that I think I will forever hold up as the most

00:46:40   the most amazing example of collaborating with another person. Like they did two videos that

00:46:48   each really depends on the other one. They did this fantastic thing with the timing of the

00:46:53   videos. It's really quite an achievement what they did. Like that is an amazing collaboration video.

00:46:59   But lots of collaboration videos I sometimes feel like people are just in somebody else's

00:47:03   video just to be there. And when I watch them it feels like, "Is this adding or is this like,

00:47:09   is this like a little jarring moment?" Like the feeling suddenly changes. And so we didn't think

00:47:16   that this topic lent itself to true collaboration. And so that's why I was always using the word

00:47:21   crossover of at the end we are crossing over that each topic forms a nice little circle of this one

00:47:29   leads into that one and that one leads into this one so it makes sense for each

00:47:33   of us to point to the other at the end. And so I think it was interesting to do.

00:47:38   It's always stressful trying to time something with another person as well

00:47:42   especially because we have vastly different production cycles and it's

00:47:47   like okay well we have to release on the same day but like how long is it gonna

00:47:50   take for all his animation to happen? How long is it gonna take me to come to the

00:47:54   end of creating the scripts? Like who knows? Who knows how long it's going to

00:47:58   and when you're trying to coordinate with someone that stuff is quite stressful

00:48:02   and then of course because I am the person that I am I start immediately

00:48:05   worrying like somebody else is working on a split brain video right now and

00:48:08   they're gonna upload the day before and it's all of that stuff is is yeah it's

00:48:13   high stakes but it seems to have paid off the videos are doing very well I

00:48:17   think they're they're helping each other so it's definitely worth it.

00:48:20   The main reason that people do these types of things is to I guess point

00:48:26   people to other channels, right? Like I think that's why the business reason for

00:48:31   doing this type of stuff. Oh yeah. Did you find that to be beneficial? The work

00:48:36   that you did together, did it pay off? Business-wise this this kind of thing is

00:48:41   is very good. It's also one of those cases where, as we have talked about

00:48:47   before, in some ways I am I am this very like spreadsheet oriented return on

00:48:52   investment person and I should be doing crossover collaboration videos all the

00:49:00   time. The spreadsheet would say like do this every single time but I

00:49:04   only want to do it when it feels like it's a good topic and it

00:49:08   totally works to do but you can build a pretty successful YouTube career by

00:49:13   intensely collaborating with literally everybody who will do collaborations with

00:49:18   you. And you can see that as a kind of career path on YouTube sometimes. But I'm just pulling

00:49:25   up the numbers here. And so for people who want to know in terms of success metrics and

00:49:31   subscriber numbers, in the 48 hours after the video went up, we each gained about 80,000

00:49:41   additional subscribers.

00:49:42   That's no joke.

00:49:44   Yeah, it's a big number. It's a big number of subscribers.

00:49:48   So blimey that video's done well.

00:49:50   Looking at the view numbers.

00:49:52   Whoa holy moly.

00:49:54   Wow this is a big success one.

00:49:57   Yeah it's done very well.

00:49:59   I think you'll find it's holy moly.

00:50:01   Well I've made that very clear.

00:50:06   I haven't looked at it in a while what is it up to now?

00:50:08   2.4 million.

00:50:09   It's pretty good.

00:50:10   Pretty good.

00:50:11   Pretty good.

00:50:12   Yeah.

00:50:13   I was just going to say for comparison for the listeners so they have a sense of scale.

00:50:18   On a normal "nothing happens" CGP Grey hasn't uploaded a video in six months.

00:50:24   Or something. It's not six months.

00:50:27   One day it will be six months.

00:50:29   Yeah, one day it will be six months.

00:50:31   Hasn't uploaded a video in six weeks kind of thing.

00:50:34   A normal day is like a thousand subscribers.

00:50:37   Somewhere in that ballpark.

00:50:39   So this puts it, you know, sort of again, ball parking it.

00:50:44   It's kind of an order of magnitude, larger, roughly sort of.

00:50:49   So it's business-wise, like this kind of thing

00:50:52   is very good to do.

00:50:54   I should, in theory, do it way more than I do.

00:50:58   But again, just the way my working cycle is

00:51:02   and also my own quite laggy and long production cycles,

00:51:07   like it does make it hard for other people

00:51:08   to work with me.

00:51:10   And it's one of the reasons why

00:51:11   Philip and I could collaborate quite easily

00:51:13   because he also has the same kind of like very long,

00:51:16   very laggy production cycles.

00:51:18   So we each very well understand.

00:51:22   We are talking in November,

00:51:24   it might be almost half a year

00:51:25   until this thing is actually done and up.

00:51:28   And that's okay.

00:51:29   - 2.4 million is a lot of views.

00:51:32   - Yep, a lot of people watching a video with my hands,

00:51:36   moving stuff around.

00:51:37   What a life you laid, huh?

00:51:41   It's a little weird to think sometimes.

00:51:44   It's a little weird to think.

00:51:45   I went to Toys R Us.

00:51:46   I bought a Kylo Ren mask.

00:51:50   Got some My Little Ponies.

00:51:52   Got some Rubik's cubes and some blocks for babies.

00:51:55   I put it on my business card.

00:52:00   The guy at the Toys R Us was like, "Are these for you?"

00:52:03   I was like, "No, it's a business expense."

00:52:05   I don't think he believed me.

00:52:07   Well because what business is that?

00:52:09   I know but that's... I was like...

00:52:11   I could see in his eyes like a little bit of doubt

00:52:13   and I was like "Why don't you believe me?"

00:52:15   But walking away it's like of course he has no reason to believe me

00:52:17   that I need some blocks for babies for a business expense.

00:52:21   Why would you even ask someone that question?

00:52:24   Like, how many people go into Toys R Us and buy things for children?

00:52:28   Like, isn't that the whole purpose of the store?

00:52:30   What a strange thing to ask.

00:52:32   And I don't know. I don't know why clerks always ask stuff when you're in stores. You probably had a weird look on your face

00:52:38   Right. Thank you. You knew you shouldn't be there buying those things and he could tell is that what you think it was?

00:52:45   That's what I think it was

00:52:46   Is that why clerks always talk to me everywhere I go because I have a weird look on my face

00:52:49   Is that what you're saying? You know like the idea that magicians when they're pulling somebody out of the audience

00:52:55   They pull the person who looks the most awkward

00:52:57   Right, like they can just tell like I'm gonna get this person because they clearly don't want to do this

00:53:01   I expect that that's the kind of face that you have when you're interacting with anybody in a retail environment

00:53:07   So people just are instinctively want to ask you questions because you look like you don't want to be there

00:53:12   Hmm, maybe maybe that's why that's my experience everywhere. I go people want to talk to me about things

00:53:19   You to work on that poker face

00:53:21   Yeah

00:53:22   But if I am ever at a magic show

00:53:24   I always do my best to give the the guy on stage like a death stare like I will look right into his eyes

00:53:30   I mean like I'm thinking thoughts like you don't want to pick me buddy, right? Like looking right at him just like blank face. I

00:53:37   Am NOT your person. I figure that's like the fastest way to communicate it

00:53:42   Every now and then you say something that like the phrase is funny to me and this time was every time I'm at a magic show

00:53:49   How often how often this is what you're secretly in the magic circle nobody knew I

00:53:58   I was just thinking like I saw Penn and Teller.

00:54:01   - Ooh, I've wanted to do that.

00:54:02   Is that in Vegas?

00:54:04   - I saw them when they were in London a little while ago.

00:54:07   That was probably the last magic show that I was at.

00:54:09   - I would love to see Penn and Teller.

00:54:11   - Yeah, but I'm also thinking of like Cirque du Soleil shows

00:54:14   and things like that.

00:54:15   Like they're all just the same kind of like,

00:54:17   someone is getting pulled on stage.

00:54:19   Like it's all in my brain.

00:54:20   It's all filed under like magic show, right?

00:54:22   When they're pulling someone on the stage.

00:54:23   Like this is what this is.

00:54:25   Even if it's clowns at Cirque du Soleil or whatever.

00:54:28   you call them clowns? I don't think clowns are the right word. No Cirque du Soleil has the

00:54:31   clowns they always have clowns. Do they? Have you seen these shows? Yeah I don't like clowns and I've

00:54:35   never been to Cirque du Soleil. Okay well don't go that's my recommendation if you don't like clowns

00:54:40   don't go. I'm not going. I don't like the clowns either but it's the same thing of like I want to

00:54:44   make them feel like don't pick me buddy. I'm the weirdo in the audience who's looking right at you

00:54:49   with the dead deadpan face like I'm trying to signal that I am NOT the person you're gonna

00:54:52   have a fun time with if you pick me. I will be the most resistant. Exactly, I swear to god I will.

00:54:58   I want to signal like I will be lots of trouble and no fun for you. Look elsewhere, look elsewhere.

00:55:03   I can push stuff over.

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00:57:21   So your favorite ever email app, Unibox, has recognized the Cortex love.

00:57:28   Yes, yes, I saw this morning I think that Unibox put up a very nice little post saying

00:57:36   that they heard us talking about the app on the show.

00:57:40   And what I really like that they did is they took the time to write out a few things discussing

00:57:48   some of the points that we brought up and showing like a few extra tips and tricks for

00:57:53   those of you in the audience who are joining me in the unibox way for the endless wheel

00:58:01   of email.

00:58:02   Basically they did a better job of explaining it than we did.

00:58:05   As they should, but yeah, there's some of the things that you were trying to help me with

00:58:10   they do a much better job of explaining them.

00:58:12   Yeah, reading through their article I was thinking

00:58:15   "Oh that's why Myke and I had such a different experience when we set up our apps."

00:58:19   Like I just happened to press a button and I didn't even remember, I didn't even think about it.

00:58:23   There's one thing in there that I really like which I was just looking at

00:58:28   I was like, "Oh, this totally makes sense."

00:58:31   I was talking about being able to swipe on just message subjects when we were having

00:58:37   the conversation.

00:58:38   You were like, "That's really weird and confusing."

00:58:40   And they very nicely took the time to say, "You can swipe anywhere on the message.

00:58:45   You don't have to swipe on this one little narrow strip."

00:58:48   And so I actually just installed it on my phone just to try it.

00:58:50   And I was like, "Oh, wow!

00:58:52   I don't use email on my phone, but if you are an email on your phone person, you can

00:58:59   swipe anywhere on the message, anywhere on the screen and perform a couple of actions

00:59:03   on the message.

00:59:04   Like, boy, that would be amazing.

00:59:06   If I was an email on the phone guy, this is a fantastic feature.

00:59:10   So I wanted to say thanks to the team for writing up some additional information that

00:59:15   we missed in our attempt to try and explain the app.

00:59:19   Thankfully they were there to help.

00:59:21   Yes.

00:59:22   Hey Gray, do you know what time it is?

00:59:27   It is 1.18 in the afternoon as we are recording this.

00:59:32   No, that's correct.

00:59:33   That's the answer I was looking for.

00:59:35   Is that what you're looking for?

00:59:36   Yep.

00:59:37   Perfect.

00:59:38   Let's do some Ask Cortex.

00:59:39   Okay, great.

00:59:41   Magnus wrote in, Gray, and Magnus wanted to ask, "How does one handle to-do items that

00:59:47   are dependent on another person in order to be completed?"

00:59:50   So Magnus, with his job, a large part of it is gathering information from people that

00:59:56   are not necessarily directly incentivized to get that information for him.

01:00:01   Oh Magnus!

01:00:02   Oh Magnus!

01:00:04   I love the way you describe that and boy have I been there.

01:00:07   I was going to say, this sounds like you've got some camaraderie here, Myke.

01:00:11   Yep, and Magnus goes on to say they're not necessarily directly incentivized to give

01:00:16   the information which means that deadlines don't exist to these people.

01:00:20   So how do we handle to do items that are dependent on other people, whether they're incentivized

01:00:26   or not?

01:00:27   So we both use OmniFocus, and I know that a long time ago, Gray, you'd mentioned using

01:00:33   Wunderlist, and I wonder how you continue to do this, especially with the expanding

01:00:40   organization that is Gray Industries.

01:00:42   Yeah, that's a good point.

01:00:46   Uh oh.

01:00:50   How do I handle this? Well first of all

01:00:54   to Magnus, my sympathies go out to you.

01:00:58   Because as we all know, people are the worst. You can't depend on people.

01:01:02   They take forever to get back to you. And I include myself in this group.

01:01:06   I think of poor Myke reaching out to me sometimes, sending me a

01:01:10   a message and it's like "I'll get back to him later" right? Like when does later come?

01:01:14   I don't know. Later. It no, don't say never. It comes

01:01:18   eventually. Later comes eventually. So this is a problem

01:01:22   that we all face and that if we look deep into our own selves

01:01:26   we all sometimes also create. I mean the short answer is

01:01:30   I try to eliminate dependencies on other people as much as possible

01:01:34   to minimize this inevitable problem. But

01:01:38   When I do have something that I need to keep track of,

01:01:43   like the other person needs to get back to me on this thing,

01:01:48   I have a context in OmniFocus that's just called waiting.

01:01:52   And this is a kind of holdover from the strict

01:01:56   getting things done implementation days of yore

01:01:58   that I used to do.

01:02:00   But I find this one little thing is quite handy

01:02:04   of being able to mark in a project,

01:02:06   like the next step is me waiting on this person

01:02:10   to get back to me about a thing.

01:02:12   And that's just my stake in the ground

01:02:16   so that I don't forget,

01:02:17   because I know that I am very likely to forget

01:02:19   that I'm waiting on another person for another thing

01:02:21   and just totally lose track of it.

01:02:23   So that's my general catch-all for people

01:02:28   that I'm not necessarily formally working with.

01:02:31   I still, with my assistant,

01:02:33   we do use Wunderlist as a shared list

01:02:37   to keep a record of all of the various things

01:02:41   that we are working on.

01:02:42   And she really likes that app, I really like that app.

01:02:46   I have to say, I highly recommend if you are working

01:02:50   in probably a very small team,

01:02:52   I'm not sure Wunderlist would scale very well

01:02:55   to a large team of people,

01:02:57   but maybe for five or less individuals,

01:02:59   I think it's a fantastic little app

01:03:01   for keeping track of who is doing what.

01:03:04   And so I can assign to my assistant,

01:03:07   like, "These little subtasks,

01:03:09   "these are your responsibility."

01:03:10   And then she can go through it

01:03:11   and also assign subtasks to me.

01:03:14   And it's very easy to see like,

01:03:15   who is the block in moving this project forward?

01:03:20   And the answer is not surprisingly always, I am.

01:03:23   But at least like it's clear,

01:03:24   like we know who is the person

01:03:26   that needs to get back about a thing.

01:03:28   So I really recommend that.

01:03:29   I really recommend that a lot.

01:03:31   But to the later part of his question,

01:03:34   I'm much more interested in what Myke does about this

01:03:37   because in terms of incentivizing people,

01:03:40   I would just have to go, "What?"

01:03:43   Like shrug my shoulders like,

01:03:44   I have no idea how to get people to do what you want

01:03:48   if they are not incentivized to do that.

01:03:50   And so I am hoping to learn something from Myke

01:03:54   in the very next moment about how to make that happen.

01:03:57   - The incentivization portion of this is very difficult.

01:04:01   If you're working within an organization.

01:04:04   - This is like office politics stuff.

01:04:07   - Yeah, that's the only way you can do it.

01:04:10   So in my experience,

01:04:12   there are two ways you can incentivize people.

01:04:14   You can either be really nice

01:04:16   or you can loosely threaten them.

01:04:18   - Is this actually your advice?

01:04:21   - The threat usually comes in the form

01:04:25   of whomever has direct line management control.

01:04:30   Oh God, is this like the stuff I used to see at schools, like let's CC somebody's boss

01:04:37   on this?

01:04:38   Is that what you mean?

01:04:39   Oh God.

01:04:40   That's the only thing to do, I have found.

01:04:42   And I would very rarely use this.

01:04:45   But sometimes you just gotta throw that CC in, man.

01:04:48   If that person is refusing to help you, and you've been as nice as you can be, sometimes

01:04:53   the only thing you can do is get the person who has the ability to directly incentivize

01:04:58   good or bad, get involved. There's no way around it. There's no way around it. So I

01:05:08   will tell you now though, I am not in a position to really do that with the people that I need

01:05:12   things from. So I go the nice route, which tends to be my default route anyway.

01:05:17   Nice guy Myke. Good cop Myke. Good cop. Good cop. I'll bug people where I need to, you

01:05:22   know like send them emails, but you know, eventually there's only so far you can go,

01:05:27   but I don't use the CC anymore

01:05:29   because it doesn't really work

01:05:30   for the type of stuff that I'm doing.

01:05:32   I'm sorry Magnus.

01:05:35   I will say though, just from the idea

01:05:36   from a handling tasks perspective,

01:05:39   I have tried Wunderlist and I agree

01:05:41   that it is actually quite wonderful, but--

01:05:44   - Oh God.

01:05:45   - That's so good, but--

01:05:45   - You gotta stop that man, it's awful.

01:05:48   - No, I will never stop.

01:05:49   My problem with it is I don't like having multiple

01:05:52   to do apps to check from a dependency perspective.

01:05:56   Now many people will point out the amount of to-do apps

01:05:58   I have on my screen, but they're different things for me.

01:06:01   They're like reminders and to-dos.

01:06:03   Like my to-dos are all in one task management system,

01:06:07   task management system, and that is omni-focus.

01:06:10   Like that is where my stuff needs to be done, goes in there.

01:06:15   Things like take out the trash,

01:06:17   things like remember that TV show is on,

01:06:19   that sort of stuff lives in you, right?

01:06:21   Like I see those as different types of things completely,

01:06:25   but the things that would go in an application

01:06:27   like Wunderlist are like tasks.

01:06:29   They are things that for me mentally live in OmniFocus.

01:06:32   So when I'm waiting on somebody to do something for me,

01:06:35   I put that in OmniFocus.

01:06:37   It's like discussion is had and then task of check with X

01:06:42   about Y goes in my personal OmniFocus.

01:06:46   - Yeah, tool wise, I agree with you there

01:06:48   that that is the one thing that I don't like

01:06:50   about using Wunderlist.

01:06:53   is that feeling of I can't in OmniFocus

01:06:58   always have an overview of everything that's occurring

01:07:02   because there's this subset of tasks

01:07:05   that have to live somewhere else

01:07:07   because they are being worked on by another person.

01:07:10   And I don't like that split very much.

01:07:14   I would prefer if in OmniFocus there was a way

01:07:19   to say share a list with somebody else.

01:07:21   And I understand that's not a thing

01:07:22   probably going to happen. So that is a little bit of a downside, but yeah, I find it's the

01:07:29   only way to keep track of that stuff. But yeah, in theory I would want absolutely everything

01:07:35   to be in one spot. And I actually also recommend doing the thing that you're talking about

01:07:43   here of separating out a lot of those smaller tasks and like those reminder tasks in something

01:07:50   else and I have, it's actually over the past few weeks, I used to use Do for that but I've

01:07:57   actually been migrating a bunch of my little reminders and tasks like "take out the trash,

01:08:04   do some laundry" you know that kind of stuff. I've been migrating them over to my old friend

01:08:08   Todo and having, taking advantage of some of its little reminder and nagging features

01:08:14   to bug me about things at certain intervals.

01:08:17   an interesting overpowered application for tasks like that.

01:08:21   - Yeah, it is comically overpowered

01:08:25   for that particular purpose.

01:08:28   And in theory, I should be,

01:08:30   all of these names are terrible.

01:08:31   In theory, I should be using do instead of to do

01:08:35   to solve this problem.

01:08:37   But because of the--

01:08:38   - Have I considered three do?

01:08:40   - Yeah, I know.

01:08:41   I'm gonna make an app called YouDo.

01:08:44   Who do? We do.

01:08:45   We do the WhoDo, right?

01:08:47   This is all a to-do apps.

01:08:49   But I ran into some problems with Do

01:08:54   correctly syncing across my various devices.

01:08:58   And so I was going slowly insane with Do

01:09:01   trying to remind me on a whole bunch of different things

01:09:04   about like, "Did you do the laundry?"

01:09:05   It's like, "Yes, I've ticked off on the laundry

01:09:07   on four different iPads.

01:09:08   I've done it like I've done the laundry."

01:09:09   You know, just, you don't have to tell me on every single,

01:09:11   it was kind of driving me crazy.

01:09:13   I could never quite get it to work.

01:09:14   But then I remembered like my old friend, Todo,

01:09:18   ridiculously overpowered, but has rock solid sinking

01:09:23   and has better flexible reminders about,

01:09:26   nag me about this thing every minute

01:09:29   or every 15 minutes or every hour.

01:09:31   And so a lot of those kinds of things,

01:09:33   like, you know, take vitamins,

01:09:35   I'm moving those little things out of OmniFocus

01:09:38   and into Todo.

01:09:39   And I quite like having that division.

01:09:42   And that feels quite natural in my head.

01:09:44   like, oh, these aren't projects, these are just little reminders throughout the day,

01:09:48   it makes sense to handle them someplace else and to leave the heavy lifting of project

01:09:56   management to OmniFocus, you know, for where it shines.

01:10:01   Somebody did actually ask us in an Over-Ask Cortex question, like, if we use DUE on different

01:10:06   devices. I don't do that. For me, like, I just don't want those things popping up everywhere.

01:10:14   for me, Dew is a phone and watch app, that's all it is. And sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I

01:10:21   wish I could put this task in on my iPad," but I know that if I put it there, I'll have

01:10:26   the notifications turned off and the app's kind of going crazy in the background, I don't

01:10:29   want any of that, so I just restrict it to phone and watch. And most of the time, I can

01:10:37   get the watch to enter the task.

01:10:39   Right.

01:10:40   Right.

01:10:40   Way more of the time.

01:10:42   So like I'm, I'm good with that there.

01:10:43   I think that's a totally sensible solution.

01:10:46   The reason that I don't do that is because I am using the timers of the do app.

01:10:51   That is its primary feature to me.

01:10:53   And I want to on any device at any, any time be able to start like.

01:10:58   I am beginning a work unit now click 40 minute timer go.

01:11:02   And I, and I love the way that it reminds me, like I can set it with just a banner

01:11:05   across the top of the screen to poke me like the timer's up, the timer's up, but it doesn't

01:11:08   interrupt me.

01:11:09   So that's why I want that immediately available on every device at any time.

01:11:14   But then the syncing of reminders and things can be crazy making.

01:11:18   So that's why it's like, "Oh, here I am.

01:11:20   I've got to separate it out.

01:11:21   Now I've got like three apps with check marks on my system here for managing different kinds

01:11:26   of things."

01:11:27   So that's why I went with that solution.

01:11:30   A minute ago you mentioned shared tasks in OmniFocus.

01:11:34   If anything from history has shown us.

01:11:38   - No, Myke, Myke.

01:11:42   - What?

01:11:42   I didn't say anything.

01:11:43   - The good people at OmniFocus,

01:11:45   they have been so accommodating.

01:11:46   I will not let you do what you're about to do.

01:11:48   - I didn't say anything.

01:11:49   - Okay, all right, we're not saying anything.

01:11:51   - I didn't say anything.

01:11:52   - We're just moving right along.

01:11:53   - Sam asked, what RSS readers do you use?

01:11:56   I will ask, do you even use one anymore?

01:11:59   RSS is dead, man.

01:12:01   - Okay, here's the...

01:12:03   Technically, my answer is no, I don't use an RSS reader.

01:12:08   However, I sort of have an RSS reader

01:12:13   in that there are a very few websites

01:12:16   that I do follow and read.

01:12:19   But what I have set up is in If This Then That,

01:12:23   a trigger that follows those RSS feeds

01:12:26   and automatically dumps the articles in Instapaper.

01:12:29   So I sort of don't have an RSS reader,

01:12:33   but I sort of do because I have a small number

01:12:36   of handpicked websites that I want to read what they have.

01:12:39   And so like, I guess Instapaper is kind of my RSS reader,

01:12:44   but the difference is when I had a proper RSS reader,

01:12:48   and speaking of fantastic names,

01:12:50   I used Reader, R-E-E-D-E-R, right?

01:12:53   That's my RSS reader,

01:12:55   along with my Do app for timers, we had to do, right?

01:12:59   It's like guys come on like let's have names.

01:13:02   Wunderlist like it's a name, it's a thing.

01:13:04   People can use it as a word.

01:13:06   Yeah, no it's not Wunderlist.

01:13:09   It's not Wunderlist, Myke.

01:13:10   But so when I did have Reader, R-E-E-D-E-R,

01:13:15   as my RSS reader, at that stage I had just tons and tons

01:13:20   of RSS items for all kinds of things.

01:13:23   And I had little sub smart lists and I like to be able

01:13:27   to blast through a bunch of stuff that I follow that way.

01:13:28   I don't use Instapaper like that at all. I think I have maybe five websites that

01:13:37   are automatically dumping articles into Instapaper and all of those websites

01:13:41   like if they post one thing a week it's a lot so it's it's ridiculously low

01:13:46   volume but so you don't have anything.

01:13:48   RSS serves one purpose in my life now and it's

01:13:51   podcasts that's the the ultimate RSS use is for podcasting.

01:13:56   So overcast is your RSS reader. That's effectively yes, it's the only application that I use

01:14:02   I believe that has any kind of RSS. I

01:14:04   you know, I still subscribe to

01:14:08   Feeder angler like it's still there right? Like I have an RSS thing in the background. I used to use probably reader

01:14:16   And unread as well. I've used those applications in the past. They're fine apps. I just don't read news in this way anymore

01:14:24   So what I found out was I would find every article I needed because I read Twitter

01:14:30   Mmm, everything I need to see comes through there most of the time

01:14:36   It's for RSS feeds that I was never subscribed to anyway

01:14:39   Right, like it would be something that came from Bloomberg that I would need to read but I don't subscribe to Bloomberg's RSS feed because it's too much

01:14:46   Or you know the verge I would want to know their stuff but in an RSS reader

01:14:51   It's like oh here's like 50 things that I don't care about for the one thing that I do

01:14:54   so I follow a bunch of Twitter accounts for

01:14:58   You know sites that I like to read including the blogs of my friends and stuff and then you know

01:15:04   It's like I'll subscribe to Casey lists is Twitter account

01:15:07   I will follow Marco's Twitter account Steven Twitter account like and I get everything that I need to get that way

01:15:12   Because Twitter is just what I read and it's where I get that stuff

01:15:15   yeah, the idea of opening up an RSS application and

01:15:20   and looking at all of the things inside it just doesn't serve a purpose for me anymore.

01:15:24   Yeah, I remember when I first signed up for Twitter a while ago, I remember having this feeling like,

01:15:31   I don't really get Twitter. Like I was having a hard time figuring out like what purpose does

01:15:35   this serve in my life? Like what I'm exactly going to use this for? But I do remember at some point

01:15:41   it dawned on me that oh this this is RSS for non-nerds like this is in some ways a much easier

01:15:51   RSS like system it's not as complete as RSS but it's way easier for a normal person to sign up to

01:15:59   a Twitter account and follow a bunch of sites that are interesting to them and then be able to log on

01:16:03   and see stuff and I remember that was the first time that Twitter started to gel for me of like

01:16:08   "How do people use this? Why do people use this?"

01:16:11   And so yeah, I used to think, "Oh, Twitter is nothing like RSS."

01:16:15   When people say that one has replaced the other, that doesn't make any sense, because RSS has all these features.

01:16:19   But now it's like, "No, no, I think it really has."

01:16:22   I think Twitter really has supplanted the need for RSS in 99% of the population that would be using an RSS reader.

01:16:32   Joel asked, "What fonts do you use in your spreadsheets or any document that requires formatting?"

01:16:38   [laughter]

01:16:44   What's funny?

01:16:45   How fantastically specific. I really like this.

01:16:49   What font do you use in your spreadsheets?

01:16:51   I like that he went with spreadsheets first.

01:16:53   Yeah, well that's what's making me laugh.

01:16:56   I don't know what font I use in my spreadsheet.

01:16:59   It's whatever the default one in numbers is.

01:17:01   is is I have no idea. If I'm using something like a numbers spreadsheet or a Google Docs

01:17:08   spreadsheet or whatever I'll tend to just go with whatever the standard formatting is.

01:17:14   In stuff like Google Docs and Quip like they have a bunch of options I just choose you

01:17:18   know a sans serif font that I like the look of. But for me like if I'm formatting a document

01:17:27   for somebody so say like an advertising proposal or something. I'm partial to

01:17:33   Futura, Avenir and Proxima Nova. There's fonts that I like to use I think that

01:17:39   they're nice a couple of you know a couple of them actually fit in with the

01:17:43   kind of the fonts that we use on our website and stuff like that and I just

01:17:46   like those fonts a lot so I would format those like for external documents and

01:17:51   stuff. Outside of that I tend to just go with the defaults. I'm not a I appreciate

01:17:56   a good looking font, but I'm not a font nerd in such a way that I will go out of my way to put a

01:18:02   nice font on my like Google sheet that tracks some rubbish that nobody else needs to see.

01:18:09   I like the way you phrase that like I'll appreciate a good looking font when it's

01:18:16   walking down the street you know but I won't go chase after that.

01:18:19   I'll turn my head at a font, but you know I'm happy with the fonts that I've got.

01:18:23   That doesn't mean I have to go after new fonts.

01:18:25   That's what I'm hearing.

01:18:27   You know, I'm a nerd after all.

01:18:29   For lots of internal stuff, I usually find that the default is fine.

01:18:37   You know, like I don't really care.

01:18:39   But I'm trying to run through mentally, it's like, but there are places where I am picky about fonts.

01:18:43   I realize I have three things, which is two reading things and writing.

01:18:49   and writing. And so in my mind,

01:18:53   when I'm reading articles in Instapaper, well that just has to be a sans-serif

01:18:57   because articles are less serious than a book, and a book requires serif

01:19:01   fonts. Does this make sense? No, it

01:19:05   doesn't make any sense at all, but it's totally a thing in my mind. Like, I cannot read this book in

01:19:09   sans-serif. This book is not being serious enough. And then if

01:19:13   Instapaper, when I install it on something new, like if for some reason it has the serif

01:19:17   serif font installed by default, I feel like, "Oh, come on, who are you kidding, article?

01:19:21   You are a serif font, right? You're not putting on all of these errors with these serifs."

01:19:25   No, I will only read an article in sans-serif font, not serif font, right?

01:19:29   So that's two places where I do have a preference for books,

01:19:33   serifs, articles, sans-serifs. And then for

01:19:37   writing, it is the one place where I am a little bit picky about the font

01:19:41   that I use. And I like to write

01:19:45   with a good programmer font.

01:19:49   So if I say a font is fixed with Myke,

01:19:53   do you know what that means?

01:19:55   - Yeah, kind of.

01:19:57   People have explained this to me before,

01:19:59   I can't really see the difference in a lot of this stuff,

01:20:03   but I understand what people are saying.

01:20:07   All the characters are fixed width apart, right?

01:20:12   Is that it? - Right.

01:20:13   This goes back to the olden days of computing and when you could fit characters only in

01:20:21   certain places on the screens, like because of the way the programs were written.

01:20:24   Or actually what I think of is like the old style notice boards in train stations where

01:20:31   they're rolling over a bunch of letters and to spell out the name of a town.

01:20:35   That is a place where you would use a fixed-width font because you want all of the letters to

01:20:41   be approximately the same width, otherwise it'll read strange if on a board that's flipping

01:20:47   over letters you have a thin eye that's just floating in the middle of its little box and

01:20:53   on one side of it is like a big fat O taking up all the space. It looks weird if they're

01:20:59   not all the same size. And for some reason when I am writing, I really want a nice fixed-width

01:21:08   And so there are a whole family of fonts that are designed to do this for programmers

01:21:17   because if you are a computer programmer there are many advantages to being able to look

01:21:23   at the length of the line of something that you have written and knowing approximately

01:21:29   how many characters it is, knowing that you can compare the line above to the line below

01:21:33   about how many characters are in it.

01:21:35   And so for a long time I have been using In Consolata is the name of a font that I quite

01:21:41   like for as a writing font.

01:21:45   There's a few others out there, but if you just if you're the kind of person who cares

01:21:50   about this stuff, if you just Google programmer fonts, you will find there are a bunch of

01:21:55   options of different fonts that you can try out that are nice for this sort of thing.

01:21:59   And so on the iPad, for anybody who is wondering, because the iPad has a limited number of fonts,

01:22:06   there is an app called AnyFont that will allow you to install a custom font that you can

01:22:14   then use in other applications.

01:22:16   And so that's how I'm able to get a font like InConsolata onto my iPad to then use in the

01:22:23   writing environment, even if it's not built into the iPad by default.

01:22:27   Samuel asked, "What kind of headphones do you guys use?"

01:22:31   Which made me think, are you back to using headphones?

01:22:34   'Cause you remember when you took your time away from the internet, you also kind of stopped

01:22:39   listening to stuff, right?

01:22:40   So you weren't using headphones.

01:22:41   I remember when me and you met up that day and you didn't have headphones on and I was

01:22:45   very confused.

01:22:46   Are you back to using headphones again when you're kind of walking around town?

01:22:53   When I'm walking around on the town, I like that.

01:22:54   Looking at fonts.

01:22:55   Yeah.

01:22:56   I have three headphones that I can recommend for very specific purposes. Are you ready?

01:23:03   Oh, I'm so ready.

01:23:05   Okay, big heavy-duty headphones, which I've mentioned before on the show, are the Bose noise cancelling headphones,

01:23:12   which are worth their weight in gold when you are on an airplane and there is a crying baby.

01:23:18   Because their noise cancelling can mute the sound of that baby and

01:23:24   and make it like he's sitting way further behind you than he actually is.

01:23:28   And those are the headphones that I'm also wearing right now as I record because they're

01:23:31   nice and big over-ear headphones.

01:23:33   So I think of these as like the heavy duty headphones.

01:23:35   I'm recording a podcast or I am on an airplane trying to artificially create more space between

01:23:42   myself and the people around me.

01:23:44   They are fantastic.

01:23:46   But because they're noise cancelling, they are I think a legitimate hazard to ever wear

01:23:51   outside.

01:23:52   if you have them on you will not hear cars approaching you will not hear any

01:23:56   kinds of warning sounds it is very easy to be oblivious with these outside so I

01:24:00   cannot recommend them under those circumstances I strongly believe if you

01:24:05   wear noise cancelling headphones outside it is just a matter of time until you

01:24:09   get hit by a vehicle yeah it really is I'm like I have done it on occasion if

01:24:15   I'm like I don't have anything else available to me but the first couple of

01:24:19   times I did it and I had them on my head all the way, I realized like, "Whoa, you cannot

01:24:24   do this. You have to have one ear open to the world. Otherwise, it is. It's like you're

01:24:28   just asking to die. It's all you're doing." But even with one head, with only one ear

01:24:35   covered, I still don't recommend it. You just don't realize how effective they are at making

01:24:40   things sound way further away than they are, not even noticing stuff.

01:24:45   Now the question that you're wanting to know is like my walking around headphones and for

01:24:50   those I recommend the Jaybird X2 Bluetooth headphones.

01:24:56   They are fantastic.

01:24:58   They're super small in-ear Bluetooth headphones and what I want to recommend to people who

01:25:06   get them is you'll see the pictures where people are kind of wearing them dangled around

01:25:11   in front of them, but if you open the instruction booklet, you get these headphones.

01:25:16   People don't notice this, but they have this fancy way to fold them up so that the headphone

01:25:21   wire goes behind your head.

01:25:24   So you just stick the two headphones in your ears, and you can run the wire over the top

01:25:29   of your ear and around the back of your head.

01:25:32   And those headphones are fantastic.

01:25:34   I'm not a huge audiophile, so I don't care a lot about these super high sound quality.

01:25:39   I can't speak to that.

01:25:40   seem fine from my perspective.

01:25:43   But the thing that I love about them is they are ridiculously small, the battery genuinely

01:25:48   lasts for a full work day out in the world, and they're really light and they're really

01:25:54   comfortable.

01:25:55   They take a little while to get used to.

01:25:57   Like I push these on people and like, "No, you got to stick with it.

01:25:59   Like you got to try it out.

01:26:00   You got to just go with it.

01:26:02   It's going to be weird at first, but you're going to like it."

01:26:05   And I have yet to fail with convincing someone that if you give these a shot, they are great.

01:26:10   And they're especially great for something like the gym.

01:26:14   I cannot imagine going into the gym with wired headphones at this point.

01:26:17   And to have a little tiny pair of headphones that you can just put over your ears, it's

01:26:21   totally out of the way, totally hands-free, it is fantastic.

01:26:25   Although I am absolutely convinced that the Bluetooth headphones make a significant dent

01:26:31   in how long the battery lasts on your phone.

01:26:35   I really wish Apple would show like Bluetooth usage in their little battery drain thing

01:26:40   Because it's like I this I can tell this makes a big difference

01:26:44   But I would love to know how much of a difference like how much of the battery is the Bluetooth headphone using from the phone

01:26:48   I don't know. So that's that is the one downside

01:26:51   But otherwise, I quite like them but I have one more wild card recommendation Myke

01:26:56   My wild card recommendation is a headphone called the treks

01:27:03   Have you heard of this?

01:27:05   Why are you laughing already? The name sounds weird so I expect it's gonna be really weird. These are Bluetooth headphones

01:27:14   What on earth?

01:27:17   They are not over ear headphones like the Bose noise cancelling. They are not in ear headphones like the Jaybird headphones

01:27:25   they are

01:27:27   outside of your ear

01:27:30   Through the bone on the side of your head headphones. Bone vibration type things, right? Right. Yeah, so

01:27:37   This comes from the there's a demonstration that I used to do as a physics teacher with kids

01:27:42   Which you may or may not have ever done this listener this may or may not have ever done this in school

01:27:46   But with tuning forks that was fantastic to really freak out kids sometimes because some kids reacted like really poorly to this

01:27:53   Which is great. You take a tuning fork right and you strike it so it makes a little noise

01:27:59   And then you pull up like it's a magic class of volunteer from the audience, right?

01:28:02   Like, come up!

01:28:03   And you take the tuning fork and you put it against the side of the kid's head, sort of

01:28:08   by the ear, just in front of it.

01:28:12   And what happens is, the subjective experience goes from "I am hearing a sound that is coming

01:28:19   out from the outside of my head" to "I am hearing something that is originating from

01:28:27   inside of my head, right? Suddenly your brain has a hard time placing where the sound is coming from and

01:28:32   for some people it places the source of the sound as in the center of your skull

01:28:37   which freaks some people really out badly with like the tuning forks in my head like what?

01:28:43   No, it's like no. No, it's just on the side of your head.

01:28:45   It's coming from inside the head!

01:28:47   Yeah, but but if you think about the way your brain works, right? You are able to place where sounds are in the world and

01:28:54   and this effect of vibrating the bone that's in your head,

01:28:58   your brain can interpret it as the source of the sound is located in the

01:29:01   center of your skull,

01:29:03   which is not normally a place that you hear sounds emanating from. So some

01:29:06   people react really weirdly to it.

01:29:08   But the Trek's titanium headphones

01:29:10   reproduce that effect a little bit

01:29:13   of creating a source of sound that

01:29:16   feels to some extent like it is coming from inside your head,

01:29:20   it is not coming from outside of your head.

01:29:23   Now the interesting thing about these headphones is that they leave your ears free.

01:29:28   There's nothing blocking your ears even when you're just wearing it over your head.

01:29:33   And so the reason that I have these headphones is because when my work office starts filling

01:29:42   up with a bunch of people, I don't want to be playing loud thunder sound storms and music

01:29:48   in this environment, so I do want to put on headphones, but I also want to hear myself

01:29:51   speak.

01:29:52   these headphones because they don't block the ears and so i can still hear music or hear thunder sounds

01:29:59   and also very clearly hear myself talking while i'm working on a script and writing a script

01:30:04   so these headphones are are very very strange yeah i'm sure the look of these headphones

01:30:10   definitely don't add to the whole weirdness of the scenario that you're in yeah

01:30:18   Oh, he's also wearing his crazy future visor too.

01:30:21   That's good to know.

01:30:22   - It doesn't feel, these things don't really occur to me

01:30:23   until you say them like, like, oh yeah, I can see this.

01:30:26   - This is why you need me in your office.

01:30:28   - No, I do not need you in my office.

01:30:30   But so anyway, these headphones are,

01:30:32   they're very interesting.

01:30:33   They're very different.

01:30:35   But this is going to be one of those things,

01:30:38   I mentioned it as the wild card of,

01:30:41   you're either going to love it

01:30:43   or you're not going to like it at all.

01:30:48   But you may be a person for which this sounds like exactly the thing you want.

01:30:52   I really want to try these. I do really want to try these.

01:30:56   Because I've never experienced that before.

01:30:59   But I don't know if I really want to £110 try them.

01:31:04   Right. Next time we meet up, I'll remind me to bring them along.

01:31:07   And I'll bring along the headphones. You'll try the headphones.

01:31:10   We'll do the spreadsheet thing just like I promised. I haven't forgotten Myke. We'll do that.

01:31:14   And so you can try out these various things.

01:31:17   One of the applications that they mentioned on their website, which I think is really interesting, is for blind people.

01:31:23   That this allows, if you are blind, for you to be able to listen to a source of audio while not blocking the primary way that you know where you are in the world.

01:31:34   Right? Of hearing what's going on around you.

01:31:36   Basically, so you can listen to music without sensory deprivation.

01:31:39   Exactly, right?

01:31:41   It's like it's one of those things like it would never have occurred to me, but it's like yes, this is this is

01:31:46   This is a fantastic feature if you are blind like these are the headphones

01:31:51   You never knew that you wanted and must be amazing to use

01:31:54   And so it's like I happen to have a particularly narrow use case for how I want to use these things

01:32:00   But I can see where they're useful to other people as well if anybody uses these I'd be quite curious to know like why would

01:32:05   You want to use them or or like what do you see?

01:32:07   because I just kind of wonder like how many people buy them or how big is the market?

01:32:11   Who else has a need for these?

01:32:13   But I really like them and I found myself using them much more than I anticipated that I would.

01:32:21   So I quite like them.

01:32:22   Some people might really hate them and deeply dislike the sound is coming from the inside of my head effect.

01:32:28   So my headphone picks are nowhere near as interesting.

01:32:32   Oh, you should have gone first, Myke.

01:32:34   I know.

01:32:34   You should have gone first.

01:32:36   Tell me about your boring headphones.

01:32:37   I use ear pods, the Apple ear pods quite a lot,

01:32:39   because I always had them in my pocket.

01:32:42   Oh my god, could it be more boring?

01:32:44   Minimum viable headphone at all times.

01:32:48   I have sent a pair of Sennheiser MM400X stereo Bluetooth

01:32:53   on ear headphones.

01:32:55   They have physical controls on the side

01:32:57   that I really like so I can play and pause stuff.

01:32:59   They do not sound good at all.

01:33:01   That's the Marco recommendation, isn't it?

01:33:03   Yes, there is a theme with all of my headphone things here.

01:33:07   The theme is Marco Arment.

01:33:09   - The theme is somebody else told you to buy them.

01:33:11   - Yep, literally he did.

01:33:12   Whilst I was in his house, he was like,

01:33:14   put them in my hand.

01:33:15   So I was like, they're the ones you need to buy.

01:33:17   And he's right because they're good for podcast listening.

01:33:19   They're terrible for music.

01:33:21   But they have the physical buttons on the side,

01:33:23   which are really good.

01:33:24   I really don't like two things about headphones.

01:33:28   I don't like in-ear and I don't like noise canceling.

01:33:31   For some reason, in-ear headphones never stay

01:33:33   in my left ear.

01:33:34   It doesn't matter what type,

01:33:35   they will never stay in my left ear and noise canceling makes me feel nauseous.

01:33:39   Yeah. Yeah. The noise canceling does have that effect on some people of,

01:33:43   of not feeling great.

01:33:44   I think it might be an offshoot of motion sickness.

01:33:46   No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised if it, if it's something like that.

01:33:50   Although I am, uh, increasingly susceptible to motion sickness,

01:33:55   but the, the, the noise canceling doesn't bother me. But yeah,

01:33:57   some people just react very poorly to it. They don't like it at all.

01:34:00   The headphones that I am wearing right now,

01:34:02   my recording headphones are the Beyerdynamic DT 770 pro headphones 32 om.

01:34:18   Wow sounds pretty serious. They were put on my head in Marco's house. Right okay

01:34:24   and continuing the theme. I listened to some music and I heard things in the

01:34:28   music I'd never heard before.

01:34:30   I only use these to record.

01:34:32   They are incredibly good at letting me hear things

01:34:35   in the audio that I want to hear.

01:34:37   And they are very comfortable for me to wear

01:34:39   for multiple hour stretches a day.

01:34:42   So they are my recording headphones.

01:34:45   - Right, that's a requirement for you.

01:34:46   - The one thing I don't like about these is the cable.

01:34:49   I really like it when the cable is coiled

01:34:51   because it stays out of the way more, this isn't.

01:34:53   I don't like the cable on these,

01:34:55   but everything else is fantastic.

01:34:57   I have some pair of Bose headphones that I bought in an airport a long time ago that

01:35:02   I use for airport travel just because they cover my ears so it's the closest that I can

01:35:05   get.

01:35:06   They're not great, I don't necessarily recommend them but they do that job.

01:35:09   I've had my eye on the Bang & Olufsen H6 2nd generation, another Marco pic and a few of

01:35:18   my friends have bought them and I've tried them and they're amazing.

01:35:22   But I only use headphones like this when I travel and I just haven't, I haven't felt

01:35:26   the desire to spend a few hundred pounds on these yet.

01:35:30   Whenever my current traveling headphones bite the dust, this is probably what I will go

01:35:35   ahead and buy.

01:35:37   It's just something I have my eye on, but I haven't pulled the trigger on it yet just

01:35:41   because the use case is so slim and the ones that I have really do the job that I need

01:35:46   them to do, to be honest.

01:35:47   But yeah, they're my headphones.

01:35:50   Nowhere near as exciting as yours.

01:35:51   Alright, Myke, I hate to interrupt you there, but we have to go and we have to go right

01:35:56   now.

01:35:57   Gotta go.

01:35:58   Goodbye.

01:35:59   Goodbye.

01:36:00   Thank you, adorable MacBook.