0:00:00I've had my AirPods Pro 2 now for, I mean,
0:00:03how many weeks have they been shipping to people?
0:00:06Like three or four weeks?
0:00:07- Yeah, something like that.
0:00:08- I learned yesterday how to do the volume gesture.
0:00:12Have you done it?
0:00:13- Don't you just swipe up and down?
0:00:14- What do you mean learn?
0:00:15The whole time, did you forget that the feature existed?
0:00:18- No, so okay, here's what happened.
0:00:21(laughing)
0:00:23So I get them and I'm trying them out
0:00:26and I couldn't get the volume gesture to work.
0:00:31And one time I got it to work once,
0:00:34and I just couldn't repeat it.
0:00:35I'm like, are they broken?
0:00:37Am I broken?
0:00:38What's going on here?
0:00:40But I had a lot of stuff going on,
0:00:43and so I'm like, you know what,
0:00:44at some point I'll be in an Apple store,
0:00:46and I'll bring them in, I'll deal with it.
0:00:49- I don't know why you're having trouble with this.
0:00:51I'm sure there's clear markings on the outside
0:00:53of the AirPods showing you exactly
0:00:54to move your finger, right?
0:00:56Or are they just white?
0:00:57(laughing)
0:00:58- It's probably just like dark white markings
0:01:01on the white case.
0:01:01- Yeah, no, there's actually two tiny arrows
0:01:04and some words telling you start swiping here
0:01:06and end swiping there, but they're a very, very,
0:01:10very light gray and they're, you know, .025 point text.
0:01:15- Yeah, so anyway, so I've been using them, you know,
0:01:19just fine and I like them overall.
0:01:21I think there's a little, there's a couple of bugs
0:01:22with adaptive transparency, but overall I like them a lot.
0:01:25The noise cancellation is amazingly better.
0:01:28Like, and it was already pretty good before,
0:01:30but it's really good now.
0:01:32So anyway, I've been enjoying those,
0:01:34but I just couldn't get the stupid volume gesture to work,
0:01:36so I just thought like, maybe they're defective,
0:01:38or maybe I'm, you know, I don't know what.
0:01:40And then the other day, for some reason,
0:01:43I decided to do it a little bit differently.
0:01:45I don't even know why I tried this,
0:01:46and then it started working, I'm like, oh my God.
0:01:49All this time, like, now, so I've been doing it now
0:01:51for like two days and it's perfect and flawless
0:01:54and I was just doing it wrong.
0:01:55So what I was doing was sliding both my thumb
0:02:00and first finger up and down the stick,
0:02:05almost to the point where you'd almost pull them out
0:02:07and which at first I'm like,
0:02:09this isn't a very useful gesture.
0:02:11- Why were you doing that?
0:02:12- I am not mature enough for this conversation.
0:02:15- Yeah, I know, it's hard.
0:02:15- Stay strong, stay strong.
0:02:17No promises.
0:02:18- But that just seemed logical.
0:02:20Like, oh, you swipe, I don't know.
0:02:22- But didn't you see the videos showing,
0:02:24showing like the Apple marketing material
0:02:26show people using this feature,
0:02:28and they never grabbed the little stick
0:02:30with their thumb and forefinger.
0:02:32- Well, that was a long time ago,
0:02:34and I haven't rewatched it, you know, so, anyway.
0:02:37So that's what I was doing,
0:02:38and I kept like almost pulling them out,
0:02:40and I couldn't get it to work.
0:02:41I'm like, this is just a stupid feature,
0:02:42and it turns out what you're supposed to do is,
0:02:45like leave your thumb,
0:02:46like if you're using your right hand,
0:02:47leave your thumb behind the stick to hold it in place
0:02:51and swipe up and down like with your index finger
0:02:53on the other side.
0:02:54So like, so one finger's holding it
0:02:56and only the other finger moves.
0:02:59Oh my God, so much better.
0:03:01- So which surface, to be clear,
0:03:02which surface are you talking about?
0:03:03Is it the surface that faces the way your eyeballs face?
0:03:05Is it the surface that faces the way your ear holes face?
0:03:07Which surface are you running your finger up and down?
0:03:09- I am, the finger that is stationary is behind my ear
0:03:13and this finger that is moving is the direction
0:03:15that my eyeballs face.
0:03:16It's like hitting that surface.
0:03:18- Okay, so if I was looking straight at you
0:03:20and if I was a product designer
0:03:21that thought it might be important for the customer
0:03:23to know where to move their finger,
0:03:24they might put a black line such that when I was staring
0:03:27at you head on, I would see two black lines coming down
0:03:29the sides of your AirPods and those black lines
0:03:31would be what you'd run your finger down.
0:03:33- I think so.
0:03:34- All right, so now you know.
0:03:35- So anyway, that's how, for anyone else out there,
0:03:38you know what, write in.
0:03:39If you didn't know either, if you've been doing it wrong too,
0:03:41I just wanna know if I'm the only one.
0:03:43If you've been doing it right, I don't care.
0:03:44I don't wanna hear from you.
0:03:45probably everybody, but if for like the two people out there who have been doing it wrong
0:03:49and who I just like, you know, blew your mind with how to do it correctly, please let me
0:03:52know if there were any of you out there. There probably aren't.
0:03:56Hey John, I hear something curious. It sounds... It sounded like a chicken, John.
0:04:05Beautiful impression. Thank you. So, hey, it's that time of year again. The
0:04:09ATP store is back, the ATP holiday season store, whatever you want to call it. And we
0:04:14We have some exciting new merchandise for you this year.
0:04:17As always, the URL is ATP.FM/store.
0:04:21Run right there now and see what we've got.
0:04:24And the most exciting thing we have for you
0:04:26is a brand new product this year that started,
0:04:29let me see, I wrote this down somewhere.
0:04:31In November of 2021, we were contacted by Dan at Studio Neat
0:04:36maker of many fine products that you may have heard of,
0:04:39studioneat.com.
0:04:42And he said, "Hey, I heard you talking about
0:04:44your chicken hat on the episode."
0:04:46This was a recent episode in 2021.
0:04:48(laughing)
0:04:49And I gave him an idea.
0:04:50What do you think about the idea
0:04:52of trying to replicate that chicken hat?
0:04:53Studio Neat makes all sorts of products.
0:04:56So they have expertise in this area.
0:04:57And I said, "All right, sure, we could try that."
0:05:01And it has more or less taken this long
0:05:03to get everything together.
0:05:05You know, obviously COVID supply chain, blah, blah, blah.
0:05:08But we went through a process
0:05:10over the course of several months,
0:05:11I guess more than a year now of sourcing materials and comparing to my original one and only
0:05:18chicken hat to try to make a reproduction of my personal chicken hat.
0:05:22Now there are many caveats to this, okay?
0:05:24Many things to consider.
0:05:25For people who don't know the story, my chicken hat is a winter hat that I really like and
0:05:29I was musing on a show apparently in 2021 that I just have this one hat and if I lose
0:05:33this hat I can't buy another one like it and I never see anything like it in the store
0:05:37anymore and there are multiple things that make this hat unique, not to rehash everything
0:05:41I said there but it's kind of a weird shape. Dan has a post about it at student
0:05:44meet we'll put a link to his blog post as well. You got to see a picture of me
0:05:47wearing the hat. He says it's you can't find hats of this shape. You can find
0:05:51hats of this shape but you can't find hats that are both this shape and also
0:05:54this construction constructed in this way of this material right I just never
0:05:59seen anything like it I'm always buying hats trying to be replacement for this hat
0:06:03I can't do it so now he essentially made one of my own. Now my hat that's like
0:06:07this my chicken hat is over 20 years old I can't put an exact date on it but I did
0:06:12find photos showing it's at least 20 years old. It's been through the
0:06:15wash many times. I'm sure it has changed size over the course of 20 years I'm
0:06:21going through the wash how could it not right but that's where we're at right so
0:06:25we made a chicken hat reproduction that exactly matches the size the current
0:06:30size of my chicken hat. I have no idea how big this hat was when I started making it. 20 years of
0:06:36being stretched out, basically.
0:06:38- Or shrinking in the dryer, I don't know.
0:06:41All right, second thing, that my chicken hat
0:06:44is one size fits all.
0:06:45It says it right on the tag inside the hat.
0:06:47So I don't have a small hat, a medium hat, a large hat.
0:06:49This hat was sold in whatever year I bought it
0:06:51as one size fits all.
0:06:53So the hat we made is one size fits all.
0:06:56It is exactly the same size, like you could lay it,
0:06:59'cause I went through several prototypes,
0:07:00you can lay this hat down on top of my hat,
0:07:03they are exactly the same size.
0:07:05Is that good? Is that bad? I don't know.
0:07:08Now, another thing. We went through materials.
0:07:11And this unique folks sent me many, many stacks of, like,
0:07:14Felty-type materials from the same company that makes it.
0:07:16We figured that Polartec made the material for my hat,
0:07:19so we were talking to Polartec to get their list of materials.
0:07:22Nobody makes exactly the same materials this hat is made of,
0:07:25which isn't surprising since it was made more than 20 years ago, right?
0:07:28But we got as close as we could.
0:07:30But as close as we could is different than this hat
0:07:33than this hat in a couple of specific ways.
0:07:36One, it is definitely thinner than my hat, which I think, for people who are considering
0:07:42buying this, is a bonus because my hat is extremely thick and extremely hot and most
0:07:46people would not want to wear it because on a day that's not, you know, negative 20 degrees,
0:07:51you get hot and sweaty in it.
0:07:53So this one is thinner, but I think that's an advantage.
0:07:55And the second thing is, my hat, after 20 years of going through the dryer, feels a
0:07:59little tight on my head.
0:08:01This reproduction hat, which is exactly the same size
0:08:04when you lay them on top of each other,
0:08:05does not feel as tight because the material is not as thick
0:08:08so it gives more.
0:08:09So I'm hoping it will fit more people with big heads.
0:08:12I don't know about people with small heads,
0:08:13I don't know how much of this one's gonna shrink.
0:08:14What will this hat look like in 20 years?
0:08:16I don't know.
0:08:17But we did the best we could with the material we have,
0:08:19which is we've got the one hat
0:08:21and we reproduced it as closely as possible.
0:08:23I wish I had taken up some better photos
0:08:24of like my hat and this hat laying on top of each other.
0:08:27The seams line up, the construction is the same way,
0:08:29Every dimension is identical,
0:08:31and it is as close to the same material as we could get.
0:08:34I spared the world the exact matching of the color
0:08:38because my hat is kind of a forest green.
0:08:41I don't know why it's that color.
0:08:42I don't think I even picked this hat.
0:08:43My dad might've originally bought it,
0:08:44and I could have stolen it from him.
0:08:45I don't know.
0:08:46Why is my hat green?
0:08:47I don't know.
0:08:48We could have made this one green, but we didn't.
0:08:50So we had mercy on people who might consider buying this
0:08:53as a joke or whatever.
0:08:54It is black.
0:08:55The ATP Chicken Hat is black.
0:08:57That goes with more stuff, and it also matches our logo.
0:08:59We got a little tag on the side that has our logo on it.
0:09:01So there you go.
0:09:04We didn't know how many of these things we would sell
0:09:06as a joke or whatever.
0:09:08Does anyone wanna wear a chicken hat?
0:09:09Does anyone wear winter hats at all?
0:09:11Who knows?
0:09:12But we had to guess at how many we might sell
0:09:15and then we had to calculate how many we would have to sell
0:09:17to make up, these are the type we buy ahead of time, right?
0:09:20So we have to sell a certain number of these
0:09:21even just to break even.
0:09:22So please, if you're even remotely inclined to buy this hat,
0:09:25please do so we don't lose money on them.
0:09:28to find out that no one in the world wants chicken hats.
0:09:30- Otherwise John will have to buy hundreds
0:09:32and hundreds of chicken hats.
0:09:33- Yeah, otherwise I'll, yeah, I've now made hundreds
0:09:35of backup hats myself.
0:09:36- Which itself might be a fun bit for the show.
0:09:38(laughing)
0:09:39- That's true.
0:09:40On the flip side of that, if everybody wants to get this,
0:09:43'cause it's a funny joke and you could say,
0:09:44"Hey, look at my funny chicken hat,"
0:09:45they could all sell out by tomorrow and then sorry,
0:09:48'cause we're not, you know, probably,
0:09:49we don't have the ability to make more
0:09:51of these instantaneously.
0:09:51If they do sell out and there seems to be more demand,
0:09:53maybe we'll do it next year,
0:09:54but probably this is a one-time thing.
0:09:56So if you want an ATP chicken hat,
0:09:58I think they're good hats.
0:09:59I think the chicken shape is a valuable shape.
0:10:01I think it's distinctive.
0:10:02And I think this is a comfortable hat and it's nice.
0:10:04And I think, again, the fact that it is thinner
0:10:06than my really, really thick hat is an advantage,
0:10:09not a disadvantage, because almost everybody
0:10:10who has ever seen or tried on my hat says,
0:10:12"I could never wear this, it would be too hot."
0:10:14(laughing)
0:10:15So that's the chicken hat.
0:10:17- That is the chicken hat.
0:10:18I am genuinely so glad and thankful
0:10:21that Dan and the Studio&E team were able to,
0:10:23were willing to reach out and deal with you,
0:10:26who must be the world's worst client.
0:10:29I say that with love, but nevertheless.
0:10:31- I got many different samples,
0:10:32but it was clear which direction we were going.
0:10:35That's the other thing.
0:10:36When you're comparing, like I get little fabric squares,
0:10:37right, when you're comparing them,
0:10:39I'm comparing them to a 20-year-old hat
0:10:40that's been through the wash a million times.
0:10:42It's not gonna be the same with a brand new fabric sample.
0:10:44I don't know what these fabric samples
0:10:45are gonna look like for 20 years in the wash,
0:10:47so you just gotta do the best you can.
0:10:49But there was some clear winners towards the end.
0:10:51It was down to one or two options,
0:10:52and I think we picked the right one.
0:10:54So there you go, that's the chicken hat.
0:10:55We also have an M2 shirt.
0:10:59It's like the M1 shirt,
0:11:00but it has one more number on the front.
0:11:02The chip on the back is in fact the M2,
0:11:03it is not the M1 chip on the back.
0:11:05It's the same as we've always done.
0:11:06We've got the horrendously expensive one
0:11:09with the chip on the back and the rainbow colors
0:11:10in the front that takes like eight printing passes to make.
0:11:13And then we have the monochrome one that is less expensive.
0:11:15And speaking of costs, last time we had a sale,
0:11:18we said that our prices were going,
0:11:20our cost to us was going up in all these things
0:11:22because of, you know, who knows, whatever.
0:11:25but we were keeping the prices the same,
0:11:26but that probably wouldn't continue.
0:11:28Well, this is the part where it doesn't continue
0:11:29because we held the prices down on the last sale.
0:11:32I hope you enjoyed them.
0:11:34Now the price of pretty much everything is increased
0:11:36because the cost to us is increased.
0:11:37And we haven't passed on all of the cost to us.
0:11:39We have passed on some of it though.
0:11:41So we apologize for the high prices,
0:11:43but if we had kept the prices the same,
0:11:45there are some products in our lineup
0:11:46that we would literally be losing money on
0:11:47every one we sold.
0:11:48So we actually had to increase the prices.
0:11:51We know it sucks.
0:11:52You know, what can I tell you?
0:11:54It is what it is.
0:11:55That's why we do things like the monochrome shirt,
0:11:57because the monochrome shirt is less expensive
0:11:58than the other one,
0:11:59'cause we have to do fewer printing passes,
0:12:00so consider that if you wanna save money.
0:12:02And of course we have our regular ATP shirt
0:12:04that we always have.
0:12:05We have the ATP hoodie, which is still fantastic.
0:12:07It's kind of like the chicken hat.
0:12:08I kind of dread the day that the ATP hoodie goes away,
0:12:11because I think they're great.
0:12:12My kids really love them.
0:12:14It's a great hoodie.
0:12:15And of course we got the pint glass
0:12:16that we're still selling through, believe it or not.
0:12:18Still got some pint glasses left over.
0:12:20- I don't understand how.
0:12:21I love the pint glass.
0:12:23It's like my only glass that I regularly use at home.
0:12:26It's so good.
0:12:27- My family loves them.
0:12:27We ordered four more on the last sale, I think.
0:12:29- Yeah, I think I have a total of like six or eight now
0:12:31because I got like two the first time,
0:12:33realized that was nowhere near enough,
0:12:35and then ordered another like four or six
0:12:37or something like that.
0:12:38- Yep, and then finally, the most exciting thing,
0:12:40the ATP mug with the red lining is back.
0:12:42Last time we had to get it with the gray lining
0:12:44'cause we literally couldn't get the one
0:12:45with the red lining,
0:12:46and I think the gray lining looks nice too,
0:12:48and I hope everybody who wants to have a more chill mug
0:12:50got the gray lining ones last time,
0:12:51but the red ones, the red ones are back
0:12:54and only the red ones.
0:12:55And again, these are the type of,
0:12:57the mugs are the type of thing where we have to guess
0:12:59how many we're gonna sell and we buy them all ahead of time.
0:13:00So fingers crossed on the mugs.
0:13:03We've got mugs, we've got pint glasses, hoodies, t-shirts,
0:13:06and of course the chicken hat.
0:13:07So if you're, oh, this sale runs until Sunday, November 13th.
0:13:12We try to do the sales early as possible
0:13:15to have a hope of getting shipments out before the holidays.
0:13:19Hopefully it will all work out.
0:13:21no guarantees obviously, but we're gonna do our best there.
0:13:24And if you are listening to the show
0:13:26and you would like someone to buy you one of these things
0:13:29as a holiday present, you have to send them the URL.
0:13:32Like you can't be subtle about it.
0:13:34The sale only runs until November 13th.
0:13:37You have to send the link and say,
0:13:39hey, you have three weeks to buy me something
0:13:41from this store, here's what I want.
0:13:42You can't be subtle about it.
0:13:43Don't just hope your significant other
0:13:46is going to hear you listening to the podcast
0:13:48and say, oh, that's a great idea.
0:13:49I should get one of those things.
0:13:50just give them the link, right?
0:13:52'Cause people wanna know what they wanted to buy for you.
0:13:53And if you want some of this weird nerdy stuff,
0:13:55they're not gonna guess,
0:13:56they're not gonna find it on their own.
0:13:57We have no SEO, our only SEO is you.
0:14:00(laughing)
0:14:01ATP.fm/store.
0:14:03- Also, Jon, if you wanted to save a little money,
0:14:08how would you go about doing that?
0:14:10- Yes, that's right.
0:14:10I almost forgot about that, thank you, Casey.
0:14:12If you are an ATP member, as always,
0:14:14you get 15% off everything in the store.
0:14:17If you're not an ATP member, you can become an ATP member
0:14:20and get that 50% off and it's pretty easy,
0:14:23due to the high prices, everything in the stupid store,
0:14:25to make up the cost of membership for one month
0:14:28in the savings that you get.
0:14:29So as always, you can do the thing
0:14:31where you become a member for one month,
0:14:33you get your 50% off, you buy a bunch of t-shirts,
0:14:36and then when the month is over,
0:14:37you cancel your membership.
0:14:38We make it very easy to do that.
0:14:40It's like the good services
0:14:42that use the iCloud subscribe page.
0:14:43It's really easy to sign up, watch Elasso,
0:14:45and unsubscribe, and sign up again
0:14:46and watch something and unsubscribe.
0:14:47You can do that with ATP membership.
0:14:49We don't start a mission with that, but it can be done.
0:14:52It's really easy to do.
0:14:53We know that people do it.
0:14:54So there it is.
0:14:55Don't, like, if you're, honestly,
0:14:57if you're gonna buy literally anything in the store,
0:14:58just become a member, get the discount.
0:15:00Like it's almost not worth it to, you know, anyway.
0:15:03At top of the page, it has links to do all that stuff.
0:15:0615% off for all members.
0:15:07And if you are a member, go to your member page,
0:15:09grab your coupon code, and put it in the promo code field
0:15:12during checkout at the Cotton Bureau site,
0:15:14and you will get 15% off.
0:15:16Please, I beg you, this is the time where I have to make the speech, and without fail,
0:15:22every year somebody reaches out, "Oh, you were right, you were right."
0:15:26So here's the thing, especially if you're looking for a chicken hat, a mug, or a glass,
0:15:31because those things are, there are a limited amount of them.
0:15:35But even for the shirts, you don't want to miss out.
0:15:37For the hoodie, you don't want to miss out on the hoodie.
0:15:39It's a freaking delightful hoodie.
0:15:40So if you're not in a position to order right now at ATP.fm/store, think about the next
0:15:46time you can.
0:15:47Maybe it's at your desk at work, if you're going back to work.
0:15:50Maybe it's your desk at home.
0:15:51Maybe it's once you get to the place you're driving right now or walking or what have
0:15:56you or bicycling.
0:15:58Think and vision.
0:16:00Put yourself in that place and think to yourself, "I need to treat myself and go to ATP.fm/store
0:16:06when I get to that place."
0:16:08You don't need to stop walking, particularly if you're in Manhattan.
0:16:11Don't stop walking.
0:16:12Just go where you're going.
0:16:13You don't need to stop in the middle of the road.
0:16:14You don't even need to pull over necessarily, but envision the place you're going and go
0:16:18to ATP.fm/store and buy yourself a chicken hat or a mug or a glass or one of the shirts
0:16:25or hoodies or what have you.
0:16:26Do that.
0:16:27Make everyone happy.
0:16:28But also remember to go to ATP.fm/join and join if you haven't already.
0:16:32And unlike what Jon says, you have mine and Marco's
0:16:36full permission to forget to cancel your membership.
0:16:39That is totally okay.
0:16:41We are okay with that, Marco and I, maybe not Jon,
0:16:43but Marco and I are okay with you forgetting to cancel.
0:16:45- It's not about forgetting to cancel,
0:16:46it's about once you have the membership
0:16:48and you start listening to the show without ads,
0:16:49or you enjoyed the bootleg or something like that,
0:16:51or you hear the member special content
0:16:54with our three ATP movie club things,
0:16:56you're like, "Hey, membership is actually kinda good."
0:16:58That's why you keep doing it,
0:16:59because it provides value to you.
0:17:00Because when you go back to the regular feed,
0:17:02and it's not as good anymore.
0:17:03So yeah, stay a member for that reason, I hope.
0:17:06- Yeah, definitely.
0:17:07All right, we will remind you just a couple more times
0:17:09and that'll be that.
0:17:10- Yeah, we do structure these sales
0:17:12so we have three episodes where we can remind you.
0:17:14That's how we arrange the dates, just FYI.
0:17:16And speaking of like not missing out on things,
0:17:19there's missing out on the sale, which is like,
0:17:20oh, I forgot about the sale and now it's over
0:17:22because you're like on November 15th,
0:17:23you're like, oh no, I missed it, right?
0:17:25But I can tell you inventory wise,
0:17:27the thing we have the least number of is the pint glasses
0:17:29and we are not ordering any more of them.
0:17:31So if you really want a pint glass, get that ASAP.
0:17:34The second least number of things we have
0:17:35are mugs and chicken hats.
0:17:37So if you were interested in mug, chicken hat,
0:17:39or pint glasses, just order it now so you don't miss out.
0:17:42I'm not sure that we're gonna sell out of all these things,
0:17:44but better safe than sorry.
0:17:45And the other ones are print on demand.
0:17:47We see how many we buy and then we print that many of them.
0:17:49So the only thing you have to worry about for the shirts
0:17:51and the hoodie is buying before the sale ends on November 13th.
0:17:55- Yep, please and thank you.
0:17:58Let's do some follow up.
0:17:59A couple episodes ago, I believe it was,
0:18:01I was going and waxing poetic about how much I love my new Sonos setup, and I got a Costco
0:18:07flyer in the physical snail mail, I think it was yesterday or the day before, where
0:18:12I noticed that a couple of the items that I purchased are actually going to be on sale
0:18:16at Costco right after our sale ends, coincidentally.
0:18:20The Sonos Arc that I have, kind of, and I'll explain in a second, is going to be on sale
0:18:28for $700, normally retails for $900.
0:18:30There is a catch there, we'll come back to that in a sec.
0:18:33The One SL, which is a speaker that you can use either singularly or in a stereo pair,
0:18:38but what I did is, and this is what Sonos often recommends, is I used them as my rear
0:18:42speakers.
0:18:43Those are going down from $400 to $300.
0:18:46Now, one catch, all of these, the ARC and the One SL, it's actually an ARC SL and a
0:18:52One SL.
0:18:53SL, I don't know what it actually stands for, but what it means in Sonos speak is it does
0:18:56does not have any sort of microphone or voice recognition,
0:19:00which in some ways is a feature, not a bug.
0:19:03But I will say that Sonos's voice control
0:19:07is really, really good, and I think we spoke briefly
0:19:09about it an episode or two ago,
0:19:10that it's actually Gus Spring, or whatever,
0:19:12what's the guy's name, from Breaking Bad?
0:19:15- Yeah, the actor who plays Gus Spring.
0:19:17I forget the actor's name.
0:19:18- Yeah, same, but anyway, he does the voice,
0:19:19which is kind of funny, and it's actually really,
0:19:21really good, because as far as I'm aware,
0:19:23it's all local on device, so it doesn't do anything
0:19:26complex, but in terms of like, you know, turn it up, turn it down, stop playback,
0:19:29join, such and such, etc. It's really, really good. And I like having it on my
0:19:33ARC, because I do not have the ARC SL, I have just the ARC. Again, SL means no
0:19:38voice control. But for what it's worth, the ARC goes down 200 bucks, the ONE goes
0:19:42down 100 bucks, and actually I believe that's for a pair of ONES. I'm sorry, I
0:19:47didn't say that earlier. So it's two of the rear speakers goes from $400 to $300,
0:19:52and one of the soundbars goes from 900 to 700
0:19:55if you happen to be near an American Costco.
0:19:57I just wanted you to be aware.
0:20:00Then we got some fascinating feedback from Andrew Chase.
0:20:03Andrew is a pilot for a major American airline
0:20:05and he wanted to share some things.
0:20:07So he said, "I wanna share with you
0:20:09some things regarding personal electronic devices.
0:20:11The FAA and airlines started really evaluating
0:20:14the threat of battery fires once Samsung had their phone
0:20:16that was routinely catching fire.
0:20:18I don't know how many, but there were several incidents
0:20:20as a result of defective Samsung devices.
0:20:22There have been other issues where devices
0:20:23have been either crushed by the seats
0:20:25or in the overhead bins.
0:20:27The pilots on this particular airline
0:20:29each have an 11-inch iPad Pro,
0:20:31and all of our flight attendants have large screen iPhones.
0:20:33Andrew couldn't remember exactly which model.
0:20:35The threat is so great that we have to carry
0:20:37two thermal containment bags and fire-retardant gloves.
0:20:42We have one bag large enough to fit our iPads
0:20:45that we keep on the flight deck,
0:20:46and there's another bag kept in the passenger cabin
0:20:48that can hold up to a 17-inch laptop.
0:20:51And there's a picture that has been attached
0:20:53that hopefully will be the chapter art in the MP3.
0:20:57I find this fascinating.
0:20:59This is all, I'm sorry, I forgot to establish context.
0:21:01This is all with regard to,
0:21:03don't reach in between the seats to get your phone.
0:21:06Step aside and let the flight attendant handle it for you.
0:21:10Well, this is why, because these things,
0:21:12apparently there's a real honest-to-goodness fear
0:21:14that something will catch on fire.
0:21:15I just found this absolutely fascinating.
0:21:17- Yeah, I do wonder if people would be able
0:21:19to get to those materials in time,
0:21:21if there's a device that catches fire.
0:21:22I don't know if you've ever seen those videos online
0:21:24of what it looks like when a lithium-ion battery goes up.
0:21:27It goes up fast, then it goes up big.
0:21:29Of course you need the gloves,
0:21:30'cause it's not like you can grab this thing
0:21:32and put it in the fire bag or whatever.
0:21:34So first you need the gloves, then you need the bag,
0:21:36and then you need the wherewithal
0:21:37to grab this thing with the gloves.
0:21:39You think, "Oh, so what?
0:21:40"I have the gloves on, they protect me from the fire."
0:21:42Watch the videos.
0:21:43You probably don't wanna come with an arm's length
0:21:44of something that's going off like one of these things.
0:21:46Then you put it in the bag, then presumably you seal up the bag, I guess, so the flames
0:21:50don't shoot everywhere.
0:21:51Anyway, firearm planes, no good.
0:21:53Do not want.
0:21:55Can you tell me about apple mouse shape history, please?
0:21:59I can, but first some real-time follow-up from someone in the chat room was asking,
0:22:02"It's hard to tell what the chicken hat might look like on someone's head.
0:22:04In fact, if you've never experienced a hat like this, you might be wondering, 'How do
0:22:07I even wear it?
0:22:08Which direction does it face on my head?'"
0:22:10So if you go to the show notes for this episode, you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.
0:22:16will see a link to the Studio Neat blog post about this collaboration and in the
0:22:21Studio Neat blog post it's a picture of me wearing the hat at some point in the
0:22:24fairly distant past and I'm not wearing this hat I'm wearing my original hat but
0:22:28as I said this hat if you lay it down on top of my original hat exactly lines up
0:22:33in every feature so the photo is accurate just imagine the hat being not
0:22:38that color green and imagine you know me being a lot older than I am in that
0:22:43picture. Tell me about mouse shapes. Yeah so this is about, Marco was talking about how he loves the
0:22:49the current Apple Sushi mouse and you know it's a high quality mouse and he likes the shape of it
0:22:54he likes the features and who I was listening back to the show as I do I was reminded of I thought I'd
0:22:59even said this in the show but I guess I didn't I was reminded of my various Apple mouse loves
0:23:06over the years right so the very first mouse I ever used was the mouse on the original Macintosh
0:23:11in 1984, which was basically a box
0:23:13with the corners knocked off the top edge.
0:23:17Extremely, I'm extremely boxy.
0:23:19It was a box, right?
0:23:20And the contemporary mice on other systems
0:23:24were also similar, like it was easier to make a box
0:23:27with a mouse ball in it and a button on it or whatever,
0:23:29but it had some style, it had some panache,
0:23:31but I think that first mouse basically dictated
0:23:35how I would use a mouse for the rest of my life.
0:23:38because it was a box, it's got, you know, it's a rectangle,
0:23:41it's got flat sides, right?
0:23:43And that's why I grip the mouse with my thumb
0:23:47and my like, pinky and ring finger
0:23:50on opposing sides of the mouse
0:23:52with two fingers on top of it, right?
0:23:54Because the flat sides let you do that.
0:23:56And so any mouse that does not have a flat side
0:23:58for me to grip in that way feels weird to me
0:24:00because that's what I'm always trying to do.
0:24:01If you try to grab the sushi mouse from the sides
0:24:04with your thumb on one side
0:24:06and your pinky and ring finger on the other,
0:24:07It doesn't work 'cause the sides aren't straight,
0:24:09the sides are very small, and if you actually do squeeze it,
0:24:11it like pushes the mouse upward.
0:24:13It's not how you're supposed to use that mouse.
0:24:15So that kind of cemented that.
0:24:17But the reason I brought this up is
0:24:19that was the mouse on the Mac 128
0:24:22and the original Macintosh, the 512, the Plus.
0:24:26But when the SE came out,
0:24:27Apple changed the shape of the mouse,
0:24:29drastically changed the shape of the mouse.
0:24:31You look with the mouse and the SE look like
0:24:34it was way lower profile.
0:24:36It still had flat sides
0:24:37and they're still higher than the Sushi mouse,
0:24:39but the top of it was like angled like a little ramp
0:24:42that leaned forward and it was a smaller ramp on the back.
0:24:45I don't know, you can find some pictures of it online.
0:24:46But anyway, and I was like, whoa, what are you doing, Apple?
0:24:50I liked your old mouse, it fit my hand well,
0:24:52and now you give me this really,
0:24:53it was almost like the Sushi mouse.
0:24:55It was like, yeah, it's so small and slight.
0:24:56And in reality, it was huge compared to the Sushi mouse,
0:24:59but it was a big change.
0:25:00And over the years, Apple has always,
0:25:02well, for the most part, has made mice for its computers
0:25:05that are high quality.
0:25:06There were some exceptions up there with like the,
0:25:08what was that one with the little roller ball in it?
0:25:10It was like, whatever it was that,
0:25:11there was like the iMac G5 error maybe.
0:25:14That was not a good one.
0:25:15The original Mighty Mouse.
0:25:16Anyway, over the years, Apple has made a bunch of mice,
0:25:18but every, I don't know,
0:25:20I was gonna say every decade or two,
0:25:21every five, 10 years,
0:25:24they would radically change their mouse.
0:25:26So there was the mouse and the SE.
0:25:28Then the next big one was the ADB mouse
0:25:31that was very curved and everything.
0:25:32That mouse was great, loved it.
0:25:34It was still kind of low profile,
0:25:35but the shape was very comfortable, it looked modern,
0:25:38had a huge button on top of it,
0:25:39it was the whole front half of it was a button.
0:25:42There was the Puck Mouse, nobody likes that.
0:25:43There was the Apology Mouse, which I kind of liked,
0:25:46even though, again, it was still kind of low profile.
0:25:48There's the Sushi Mouse,
0:25:49like there was the Mighty Mouse mixed in there.
0:25:52I bring this up because Marco loves the Sushi Mouse.
0:25:54Someday, if Marco keeps on living,
0:25:57Apple's gonna change the mouse,
0:25:58and they're probably gonna change it
0:25:59in a way that he doesn't like.
0:26:01So I wanted to give some perspective
0:26:02from my history with Apple,
0:26:03that Apple makes high quality mice, but they don't make the same mouse forever.
0:26:08And when they change it, they tend to leave behind all the people who love their previous
0:26:11one because the new one reflects the new thinking.
0:26:13And in the case of the hockey puck, they leave behind anyone because the hockey puck, I guess
0:26:17some people still like the hockey puck, but it was fatally flawed, let's say.
0:26:21Even when they put a divot in the button so you could tell which direction it was facing.
0:26:24Nice job, Apple.
0:26:26So be aware.
0:26:28If you love your Apple mouse, maybe get as many of them as you can and hope they work
0:26:32for your computers for a long time,
0:26:33kind of like people did with the Apple Extended Keyboard 2.
0:26:36- I mean, the funny thing is, well, first of all,
0:26:39I don't think it's ever going to be difficult
0:26:40to find these since everyone who's ever bought an iMac
0:26:44probably has one in their closet unopened.
0:26:47(laughing)
0:26:48There's so many of these lying around
0:26:49that people got as pack-ins for their desktops
0:26:52that they never used.
0:26:54- But eventually you'll need,
0:26:55like we used to have the USB to ADB adapters
0:26:58that people will use the Apple Extended.
0:27:00Eventually you're gonna need some kind of adapter
0:27:02to use these things with like,
0:27:03especially since they're Bluetooth, right?
0:27:05It's not gonna have to be some kind of like
0:27:06software adapter or Bluetooth dongle once, you know,
0:27:09the new version of Bluetooth comes out.
0:27:10- Not only are they Bluetooth, they're lightning.
0:27:13And this is where like,
0:27:15if they're ever gonna kill off this mouse,
0:27:18maybe it'll be during the USB-C transition.
0:27:20Like that's, that I think like I'm afraid
0:27:22because when they go to USB-C,
0:27:25they are presumably going to,
0:27:26at some point during that transition, update this mouse.
0:27:30Now that being said,
0:27:31I think it's probably gonna be one of the last things
0:27:33they update.
0:27:34I mean, they might never update it,
0:27:35because I don't think the EU's gonna mandate that.
0:27:37We'll get to that in a little bit.
0:27:38But also, I can imagine them not wanting to really do much
0:27:43to make this change, and possibly doing it
0:27:46in the most half-assed way possible,
0:27:49which would basically just be like,
0:27:50just keep the entire existing design,
0:27:53and just make the port USB-C, instead of like--
0:27:56- I think they got Qi charging.
0:27:58The mouse is definitely something
0:27:59where you can do Qi charging,
0:28:00and it makes way more sense to have a charging thing
0:28:02on the bottom when it's Qi charging
0:28:03than it does to have a thing on the bottom
0:28:05when it's USB-C or lightning.
0:28:06- But then there's no pairing story.
0:28:07'Cause it also pair, you pair it with, by using the cable,
0:28:10although I guess, I think there is like a thing
0:28:11where you can like hold it down
0:28:12and blink it into Bluetooth mode or whatever.
0:28:14Like I think that there's probably
0:28:15some kind of override for that.
0:28:16But anyway, yeah.
0:28:18I don't expect they're gonna be touching this
0:28:20more than they have to.
0:28:21But if they do, it is the wonderful combination
0:28:25of being both extremely common and widely hated.
0:28:29So there's gonna be a ton of them for sale forever
0:28:31on eBay, totally unopened, so no problem there.
0:28:34- I've got a bunch still in their original boxes
0:28:36up in my attic, 'cause I never even take them out.
0:28:38- Exactly, yeah.
0:28:39There's so many people like you who buy desktop Macs
0:28:42that come with these who don't ever use them,
0:28:45'cause everyone except me hates them.
0:28:47So don't worry, I got a huge supply.
0:28:51- I mean, the other thing I have going for you
0:28:52is that Apple doesn't pay much attention
0:28:55to the desktop Macs.
0:28:57witness our continued wait for the Mac Pro.
0:28:59So they're not going to redesign the mouse
0:29:02as often as they did in the past
0:29:03because it used to be much more important
0:29:04to their product line.
0:29:06But now that they've gotten basically all laptop
0:29:08and some of their desktop computers
0:29:10don't even come with the mouse like the Mac mini,
0:29:12it's pretty low down the list.
0:29:14But I do think it will make a USB-C transition
0:29:15or a Qi transition because once they go all USB-C,
0:29:19they're just gonna start knocking out
0:29:20the products one by one.
0:29:21Eventually, as lightning phases out,
0:29:24it will eventually be as hard to find as a 30-pin connector
0:29:27and so they're not gonna wanna keep selling a product
0:29:29with that in it.
0:29:30- I think I might, like, assuming that at some point
0:29:33in the future I can't use this mouse anymore
0:29:37and there's no replacement that I like,
0:29:39which those are two pretty big assumptions,
0:29:41but assuming that happens, I might just go to Trackpad.
0:29:45Like, 'cause I love having the, like,
0:29:47the direct manipulation scrolling on the mouse so much.
0:29:52I would imagine I would rather just go directly
0:29:54to double Trackpad, like, 'cause I already have Trackpad
0:29:56the left and I could just get a second one, it'd be more symmetric, but I miss all my
0:30:02Teflon mousepads.
0:30:04Steven Hackett predictably has a good post that shows all the mice that I was just talking
0:30:08about, the original one, the one for the Apple 2C and the Lisa, which are kind of gross,
0:30:14then there's the first ADB mouse and then there's the Apple desktop mouse 2, which I
0:30:18incorrectly said was the first Apple desktop mouse, but the other one was ADB before that.
0:30:23There's a cool black one that came with the Apple,
0:30:25no the Apple, the Macintosh television.
0:30:28Man, I would love to get one of those black mice.
0:30:30Then there's the Puck, the Apology Mouse,
0:30:32the Stupid Mighty Mouse, and the Sushi Mouse.
0:30:35So I think there might have been another one
0:30:36in between there, but we'll put that link in the show notes.
0:30:38It's an excellent page with some good photos.
0:30:40- We are brought to you this week by Backblaze.
0:30:45Unlimited computer backup in the cloud
0:30:47for your Macs and PCs for just $7 a month per computer.
0:30:52It is so great having online backup.
0:30:54You know, I've tried online backup for a long time now,
0:30:58ever since it really became feasible.
0:30:59And I've tried, any large option that's out there,
0:31:03you name it, I've probably tried it.
0:31:04And Backblaze is the one that I have stuck with the longest.
0:31:07It is the one I like the most.
0:31:09It is clearly the best one to me.
0:31:11And there's lots of reasons for this.
0:31:14From simple things like the pricing is really good,
0:31:17what you get for it is really good.
0:31:17There's unlimited space, unlimited bandwidth,
0:31:20No limits there, like whatever you can connect
0:31:23to your computer, even external drives
0:31:25that are plugged into your computer, it backs those up.
0:31:27And also their app is really good.
0:31:29Both the web app for if you need to do web restores
0:31:32for restoring files or accessing them,
0:31:33maybe you left your computer at home and you went on a trip
0:31:36and you gotta get a file off your computer,
0:31:37you can even do that through the web restore.
0:31:39And their client app that runs on my Macs.
0:31:41It's really a very good Mac app.
0:31:43You don't really notice it running
0:31:45because it is very respectful of your computer's resources.
0:31:48You know, it's not like a resource hog.
0:31:50It doesn't slaughter your battery
0:31:51or kill your internet connection or anything like that.
0:31:52There's tons of fine grained controls in it
0:31:54if you need those.
0:31:55So it's just a great app.
0:31:56And cloud backup is amazing because there's so many hazards
0:32:00that if your only backup is either nothing,
0:32:03which is really terrible,
0:32:04or if it's like an external drive in your office
0:32:06or in your home,
0:32:08so many risks can take out both your computer
0:32:10and that external drive at the same time.
0:32:12Whether it's environmental stuff like fire, floods, theft,
0:32:16or something like a power surge,
0:32:18or even just accidental deletion.
0:32:19There's so much that can happen.
0:32:21Cloud Backup is amazing,
0:32:22and Backblaze is the best cloud backup.
0:32:24See for yourself at backblaze.com/atp.
0:32:28You can get a 15-day free trial,
0:32:30all features enabled with no credit card required.
0:32:32So once again, backblaze.com/atp.
0:32:36Thank you so much to Backblaze
0:32:37for backing up all my stuff and sponsoring our show.
0:32:40(upbeat music)
0:32:43- Let's talk about some stuff
0:32:45that you've been up to recently, Mr. Syracuse.
0:32:48Tell me about your app updates.
0:32:50- Yeah, I didn't think I was gonna do this this year,
0:32:51but I just, you know, the timing more or less worked out.
0:32:55I had mentioned on the last show,
0:32:57we were talking about like what we do
0:32:58with the version control or whatever,
0:32:59that I was adding a major feature to my app
0:33:01and the branch I made for that feature
0:33:03kind of morphed into the 2.0 branch
0:33:05because I just kept adding stuff.
0:33:07And so I was working on version two
0:33:09of my little app switcher thing, Switch Glass,
0:33:11and version two was kind of more or less ready
0:33:14around the time of the Ventura launch.
0:33:16In fact, I had to change a bunch of code in it
0:33:18to deal with venture, which I might talk about it.
0:33:20And well, I'll talk about it now briefly, I guess.
0:33:23Anyway, the big feature that I added
0:33:25was the number one requested feature was people wanted
0:33:27to be able to reorder stuff in the app switcher.
0:33:31They already had a bunch of different sort orders.
0:33:33You could sort alphabetically in reverse and by launch order.
0:33:35But they said, what if I just wanted to say,
0:33:37I want Finder to be at the top.
0:33:38I want this to be on the bottom, whatever.
0:33:40So I added that feature.
0:33:42Adding that feature, as I alluded to on past episodes
0:33:44when we talked about our dev efforts required me to bump the minimum OS version to Monterey,
0:33:49Mac OS 12 Monterey, because that app switch review is SwiftUI and the features for drag
0:33:55and drop that I needed from SwiftUI only run on Monterey or later.
0:33:59So it was a big bump in minimum system version, but honestly not that many people use my app
0:34:03anyway, so whatever.
0:34:04Who cares?
0:34:05I wish I could have kept it lower, but I couldn't have and still actually had a reasonable drag
0:34:11and drop interface.
0:34:12And there's so many SwiftUI bugs in older OSs anyway,
0:34:14I'm glad to be on something a little bit newer.
0:34:16So I kind of did it, pulled an app,
0:34:19and I was like, you know what,
0:34:20Ventura's coming out soon, and if I just kind of say,
0:34:24this is my underscore, no new features,
0:34:26what is his little sign that he puts up?
0:34:28No, Mark?
0:34:29- I think it's no new features.
0:34:31- I know it has a boat, because it represents shipping.
0:34:33- Yeah, it's just like, this is the line,
0:34:35I'm not doing any more features,
0:34:36I'm just doing debugging from this point on.
0:34:39Even though I had more features in the queue,
0:34:40I said, this is it, let me just cut it off here.
0:34:43I sent myself a pull request, Casey.
0:34:45Nice.
0:34:46It sounds like something you should do alone.
0:34:48Yeah.
0:34:49And push it out to the store.
0:34:50And I didn't think App Review was going to get to it in time.
0:34:52But lo and behold, on Ventura launch day,
0:34:54both of my applications were ready with new versions.
0:34:57Front and center, the only thing I changed in it
0:34:59was a thing related to login items, which is--
0:35:02I'll give a little summary here, but it turns out
0:35:04to be a thing I'll talk about on another show.
0:35:05But anyway, Ventura has a new API
0:35:07for making applications register themselves
0:35:10to launch on login.
0:35:11There's been a surprisingly sorted history
0:35:14of how apps do that on the Mac.
0:35:17You would think it's such a simple feature,
0:35:18it's just that one checkbox in the bottom
0:35:19of a bunch of apps you use to say,
0:35:20hey, do you want me to launch this app on login?
0:35:22And you check it and you think that's all there is to it.
0:35:24The way is they've done that, none of them are good.
0:35:26There's a new way in Ventura,
0:35:27which is better than the past ones,
0:35:30but is buggy and has a bunch of caveats.
0:35:32Anyway, I put a bunch of stuff in my FAQ about it
0:35:34if you care, but.
0:35:35- Oh, don't worry, because the second anybody updates
0:35:38to Ventura, you will get, remember like,
0:35:41I forget which version it was,
0:35:42a couple of Mac OS versions ago when you had to like,
0:35:45approve permissions for a whole bunch of new things.
0:35:47The first launch experience of running that version
0:35:50was just a wall of notifications from all your apps
0:35:53that all of a sudden needed a new permission
0:35:55that didn't exist before.
0:35:56That's what it is for Ventura with these launch things.
0:35:58Like the first time I launched, I have it on my laptop,
0:36:01the very first time it launched with the final version,
0:36:04the entire right side of the screen was just filled
0:36:07with like 14 of these notifications
0:36:10to approve these background items.
0:36:12And it was all stuff I knew about
0:36:13except for like one weird thing left over
0:36:15by some driver installed forever ago.
0:36:17But it was like, you know, shell scripts I have to run,
0:36:19there's Backblaze, Dropbox, you know, all the stuff,
0:36:22or not Dropbox, but Maestro, my Dropbox client,
0:36:25like all the stuff that you want to run and expect to run,
0:36:29but it was like, yeah, you have to basically like
0:36:31be re-notified about everything.
0:36:34The good thing is that the default seems to be
0:36:36If it was running before, let it keep running.
0:36:39So you don't have to actually do anything
0:36:41besides maybe review them if there's
0:36:43any you want to turn off and turn them off.
0:36:45And it is nice that there is this new method to do that.
0:36:48So I think it's a good feature overall, because before, there
0:36:51were so many ways that things could be starting at startup
0:36:54or behind the scenes that were not apparent to the user
0:36:58and were very difficult for the user to ever remove.
0:37:01Yeah, the problem with this briefly with respect to my app
0:37:04is both of my apps have the option to launch on login
0:37:07because they're the type of apps you run all the time.
0:37:08Front and center changes your window layer
0:37:10and you probably want that running all the time
0:37:11if you can use it at all.
0:37:12And switch glasses and app switcher,
0:37:13you probably want that running all the time
0:37:14just like the dock is running all the time.
0:37:15So having them both launch on login makes tons of sense.
0:37:18That's all they do.
0:37:19They launch on login.
0:37:20They're just regular apps
0:37:21and instead of you having to double click them
0:37:22or launch them from the dock or whatever,
0:37:24you can get them to launch themselves.
0:37:25That's it.
0:37:26But because there is a new API to do that in Ventura,
0:37:30There was a series of old APIs on pre-Ventura systems, right?
0:37:34So I used the new API on Ventura,
0:37:36but because my apps run on older OSes,
0:37:39even, you know, even Switch class
0:37:40that I had to bump up to Monterey, it runs on Monterey,
0:37:42and the Ventura APIs don't exist on Monterey.
0:37:44So my app has to support the APIs that exist on Monterey,
0:37:49right?
0:37:49If your app uses the Monterey or earlier APIs on Ventura,
0:37:54when you use the new API to say,
0:37:56hey, please launch me on login,
0:37:58Ventura files your app under a section in system settings
0:38:02that says, these apps run in the background.
0:38:05My apps don't run in the background.
0:38:07They have no way to run in the background.
0:38:09There's nothing in them that runs in the background.
0:38:10They don't have any kind of demons.
0:38:11They only run in the foreground.
0:38:13Like they're just apps.
0:38:13You just double click them and they run.
0:38:15They can't do anything when they're not running, right?
0:38:18But because it uses an older API that it has to,
0:38:21it doesn't use it, includes code for an older API,
0:38:23because it does that on Ventura,
0:38:26it's filed under this app runs in the background.
0:38:28And so now I have to brace myself
0:38:30for people sending me emails saying,
0:38:32"Why does your app run in the background?
0:38:34What kind of sneaky stuff is it doing?"
0:38:35I have to say, "It doesn't run in the background."
0:38:37They're gonna say, "But the OS says it runs in the background.
0:38:39Look, let me send you a screenshot of system settings.
0:38:40Here's your app listed in the apps that run in the background.
0:38:43They may perform tasks when they're not open," right?
0:38:45Like, I assure you, my app cannot do anything
0:38:48when it is not running.
0:38:49I installed no launch DEP list.
0:38:51There's no daemon. There's no background server.
0:38:53I am not, you know, run activity monitor, run PS,
0:38:57satisfy yourself, but then why is it showing?
0:38:59Ugh, so I filed the feedback on this,
0:39:02and it's kind of frustrating,
0:39:03and that gets to your wall of notifications.
0:39:05Half of those notifications are going to say,
0:39:08so-and-so application wants to run in the background.
0:39:10Sometimes you will get a notification
0:39:12that says something wants to run in the background
0:39:13when all it wants to do is launch on login,
0:39:15but sometimes it really does want to run something
0:39:17in the background, so when you go into system settings
0:39:19in, you know, whatever, general login items,
0:39:21and you see the allow in background list or whatever,
0:39:25you can't tell by looking at that list
0:39:27which one of these things actually runs in the background
0:39:30versus which one of these things is just an application
0:39:32that supports a preventer OS
0:39:33that just wants to launch itself on login.
0:39:35There's no way to tell.
0:39:37Most of them probably do run in the background,
0:39:38but only if you have experience to know, like,
0:39:41"Oh, I understand this is an updater daemon
0:39:42that really does run in the background,"
0:39:44or, "This thing does make a launch agent with launch D."
0:39:48You're not going to end up by looking at this list.
0:39:50So anyway, that's why I had to add a FAQ item
0:39:53to both of my dinky little products that says,
0:39:55hey, why is your app listed as running in the background?
0:39:58Does it do anything in the background?
0:39:59I have to say, no, it doesn't, I swear.
0:40:01So that's frustrating.
0:40:02And then the second frustrating thing is,
0:40:04maybe this is only true for people running development
0:40:06and test flight builds or whatever,
0:40:07but the new API in Ventura,
0:40:08when it gets added to launch on login,
0:40:11it's very specific, as in this specific app
0:40:14should launch on login, which I think is good.
0:40:16But if you're doing development,
0:40:18and like when you run Xcode
0:40:19and it builds a version of your app
0:40:20and whatever that folder is under hidden drive data?
0:40:23Where does it put the temporary debug builds of your apps?
0:40:26- Oh, God, it's somewhere very deep.
0:40:28I never know.
0:40:31I always have to debug print the path of the binary,
0:40:34drag it out of the target area.
0:40:36- Command click it on the dock, right?
0:40:38- What?
0:40:38- Oh, yeah, I guess.
0:40:39- Oh, well, not for the simulator.
0:40:41- Yeah, you're not using Mac apps, sorry.
0:40:43- Yeah.
0:40:44- It's Mac apps, you command click on the dock.
0:40:45But yeah, when you're running Xcode,
0:40:47it builds a copy of your app
0:40:48and it puts it somewhere, but it's not like,
0:40:50even if you're making a Mac app,
0:40:52it doesn't put it in your applications folder.
0:40:53So when you run the dev build
0:40:55and you call the venture API to launch this on login,
0:40:57I think what it's doing is saying,
0:40:58okay, I'll launch the application located at library,
0:41:02developer, Xcode, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
0:41:03I'll launch that at login, right?
0:41:05But you're the version of the application
0:41:07sitting in your application folder
0:41:09is also registered as launch and login.
0:41:10So I got into a situation where I had like three copies
0:41:13of switch class listed in my open at login list.
0:41:15And by the way, the whole thing about allow in background,
0:41:17your app will also show up in the open it login thing.
0:41:20So it does correctly show up there,
0:41:22but it also appears in the allow in the background list.
0:41:24So anyway, I've been in situations
0:41:26where there are multiple copies of my apps
0:41:29listed in open it login.
0:41:31And I think it's because there literally are
0:41:32multiple copies of maps running around on the disc.
0:41:35And unlike previous versions of macOS,
0:41:36this one tracks all of them
0:41:38and will send you a notification every time you do
0:41:40a new build and you launch it, it's like,
0:41:41oh, just so you know, this app that we've never seen before,
0:41:43they just got built and run,
0:41:45it just registers itself to launch on login.
0:41:47and we wanted you to know about it with a notification.
0:41:49- Fun, that's super crappy.
0:41:51- So anyway, my apps are updated.
0:41:53Twitch class two is a free update
0:41:54for the five people who use it.
0:41:56I'm still having fun developing it.
0:41:58In fact, I just did a test flight build
0:41:59with a bunch of fun new features
0:42:01and people are finding fun new bugs.
0:42:02I'm enjoying test flight.
0:42:04It's way better than trying to send people betas.
0:42:05Test flight on the Mac, when it's working
0:42:07and when App Store Connect is working correctly
0:42:09is a real godsend.
0:42:11So I made a petition for new testers
0:42:14in my blog post about it.
0:42:16We'll put a link in the show notes to that post
0:42:18so you can read it.
0:42:19It's only a couple paragraphs.
0:42:19If you want to be a tester, you can send me an email.
0:42:22And I'll let you test it.
0:42:22And you can find fun bugs, and I'll fix them.
0:42:24That's the plan anyway.
0:42:26Oh, one more thing related to the blog post.
0:42:29I put a mailto link in the thing that
0:42:31says, if you want to become a tester, let me know.
0:42:34And the words "let me know" are a link,
0:42:35and they're a mailto link.
0:42:37I said, you know what?
0:42:38Let me put a subject line on the mailto link.
0:42:40I know there's a sort of convention for doing that.
0:42:42I'm not sure if it's a real standard,
0:42:44but I've seen it done many different times.
0:42:45you know, whatever. So, you know, the URL of that link is mail, M-A-I-L-T-O colon, and then my email
0:42:51address, and then question mark, subject equals, and then you type the subject line, right? And
0:42:56the subject line is "Switch glass test flight membership" with spaces between the words, right?
0:43:01When you put spaces in the, in the, you know, the href field of a link, you're supposed to URL
0:43:08encode them, you know, with percent 20, or I think you can do pluses, that might only be for the
0:43:13the address bar, but anyway, percent 20, right?
0:43:15That's the hexadecimal, you know,
0:43:17the way you put hexadecimal codes or ASCII code points,
0:43:20you know, that's a space, right?
0:43:22- Or you can use a plus and break half the clients out there.
0:43:25- Right, so here's the thing.
0:43:26I put percent 20s 'cause it's the right thing to do
0:43:28and I make a valid markup when I can, right?
0:43:31I immediately found out that every single person
0:43:34who clicked that link was somehow using some kind
0:43:37of browser or system that has no idea what that is
0:43:39and I got a bunch of email with the subject line,
0:43:41Switch glass percent 20, you know,
0:43:43test flight percent 20, membership percent 20.
0:43:45All right, so and like literally not a single one
0:43:49was correct, I'm like, okay, I tested it myself,
0:43:51by the way, Chrome on the Mac and Safari works fine.
0:43:54You get spaces, right?
0:43:55But whatever, maybe it's the email client.
0:43:58I don't know where the problem lies,
0:43:59but I was getting emails with percent 20s in subject line.
0:44:01I changed it to pluses.
0:44:03I just got emails with pluses in it.
0:44:05Like, literally not a single email from any mail,
0:44:10I think it's probably the mail client that's screwing it up,
0:44:12because I think Safari and Chrome probably send it
0:44:14correctly, but the mail clients don't know that it's-- anyway.
0:44:17I had to change it to spaces, which is not valid,
0:44:20but apparently it's the only way to get spaces.
0:44:21So if you look at the markup, it says,
0:44:23A, HREF, blah, blah, blah, question mark, subject,
0:44:26equals, switch glass, space, test flight, space, membership.
0:44:30And that works.
0:44:32Now I'm getting really bad subject lines.
0:44:33It's invalid.
0:44:34It's invalid HTML.
0:44:35You can put spaces--
0:44:36just the web.
0:44:38You just can't escape it.
0:44:39It just amazes me that this is not a new convention.
0:44:41The subject line in mail to links, what is that,
0:44:43from the 90s?
0:44:44And still somehow there's a broken link in this chain.
0:44:47Again, I think it's the mail clients.
0:44:48I think it's the mail clients are getting a URL
0:44:50and they are not correctly parsing the query string
0:44:52out of the URL part of it.
0:44:53They're not, obviously not decoding the percent 20s
0:44:57and not decoding the pluses.
0:44:59Sad, sad state of affairs.
0:45:00- This is, so I mean, I'll be the first one to admit
0:45:03when email is bad because that's much of the time,
0:45:06but I've never had this problem.
0:45:09I use that convention frequently.
0:45:11We even have it in our member panel, if you did that,
0:45:14dot fm slash join.
0:45:16If you go to your member panel at slash member,
0:45:19at the bottom there's a link to contact us.
0:45:21And it's a mailto link that includes not only spaces,
0:45:25but escaped colons and parentheses, all percent encoded.
0:45:30And I get a email from that maybe a couple times a week,
0:45:34maybe three or four times a week.
0:45:36None of them have ever had wrongly escaped things in them.
0:45:40It's never happened.
0:45:41- Maybe it's just small sample size,
0:45:43'cause I think only 10 people email me,
0:45:44but every single one of the 10 had percent store pluses.
0:45:47I was shocked, I was shocked.
0:45:49How could, in this day and age, how could something,
0:45:51but there you have it.
0:45:52So yeah, that's why the web is full of invalid things,
0:45:55'cause people learn through trial and error
0:45:57that if you want it to quote unquote work everywhere,
0:45:59you have to use invalid markup in some cases.
0:46:02(upbeat music)
0:46:03- We are brought to you this week by Memberful,
0:46:05the easiest way to sell memberships to your audience.
0:46:09You can create sustainable, recurring revenue,
0:46:12and this is used by some of the biggest creators on the web.
0:46:15You know, if you're looking to add membership
0:46:17to your business, you want a solution
0:46:19that works with your existing technology,
0:46:21so you can launch the new revenue stream
0:46:23without having to rebuild your entire tech stack.
0:46:26Memberful, in addition to tons of other great things
0:46:29about them, also seamlessly integrates
0:46:31with the tools you already use.
0:46:33tools like WordPress, MailChimp, Discord, and so many more.
0:46:38And whatever you wanna do by selling memberships,
0:46:40they probably support it.
0:46:40So they have, for instance, a popular option
0:46:42is members only podcasts.
0:46:44They support that, of course.
0:46:46And it uses your existing podcast hosting if you want to.
0:46:49So you can start earning more revenue
0:46:51with your current publishing workflow.
0:46:52So all this is super integrated
0:46:54with what you're already using.
0:46:55If you need any help, they have a world class support team
0:46:58ready to get you started, keep things optimized and simple,
0:47:01grow your revenue, and they align their goals with yours.
0:47:04So they are passionate about your success.
0:47:07They always give you access to a real human
0:47:08to help you achieve your goals if you need to.
0:47:10And they let you retain full control and ownership
0:47:14of your branding of everything, your audience,
0:47:17payments even going directly to your own Stripe account.
0:47:20You know, they've aligned themselves with you,
0:47:22so you can focus on your business.
0:47:24They don't get in the way, they just wanna see you succeed
0:47:27and then everyone benefits.
0:47:29So see for yourself at memberful.com/ATP.
0:47:33You can get started for free with no credit card required.
0:47:37See what Memberful has to offer you.
0:47:39Really, it is a great way to sell memberships
0:47:42to your audience.
0:47:43See what they have to offer.
0:47:44Memberful.com/ATP for that free trial.
0:47:48Thank you so much to Memberful for sponsoring our show.
0:47:51(upbeat music)
0:47:55- All right, I got a new treat today.
0:47:57- Ooh.
0:47:58I went to Apple, the local Apple store in Short Pump,
0:48:03and I got myself a picked up, yes,
0:48:06everyone thinks it's so funny.
0:48:08- That also sounds like something you do when you're alone.
0:48:10(laughing)
0:48:12- I've been married a long time, Marco.
0:48:13Anyway, so I went to the store,
0:48:16and I got complimented on my M2 shirt,
0:48:18which just happened to be the top shirt in my pile
0:48:20when I got dressed this morning, or excuse me, not M2,
0:48:23I didn't get a pre-release M2 shirt, M1.
0:48:25- I was gonna say, you don't have an early copy
0:48:26of the M2 shirt.
0:48:27- No, no, no, no, my apologies.
0:48:28My M1 shirt, somebody commented on it and said, "Nice shirt,"
0:48:31and I was very appreciative of that,
0:48:33and the person helping me was very kind,
0:48:36and they smiled and nodded very effectively
0:48:39when I told them about my podcast,
0:48:41which I'm sure they were so excited to hear about,
0:48:43but they did a very good job of making me feel
0:48:45like they actually gave a crap.
0:48:47So anyway.
0:48:48- You should listen to my podcast.
0:48:49It's about computers.
0:48:50You would like it.
0:48:50- I was totally that guy.
0:48:52I was wearing my own shirt.
0:48:53It was so bad.
0:48:54It was terrible.
0:48:55- Oh, no.
0:48:56wear the shirts out in public just in case I don't want to be that guy.
0:49:01No, I don't care. I have no shame. I'm 40 now, man. I mean, so are you, but I'm 40 now. I don't care.
0:49:06But anyway, so I picked up my iPad Pro. I gotta say, in general, if you live in a place that is not
0:49:14like Boston or New York City and you have one of the slower Apple stores like the one in
0:49:21short pump. It is pretty delightful going in and picking up your devices because you get them first
0:49:27thing in the morning. You don't have to stock the UPS truck. It's wonderful and there's almost never
0:49:34any big line like even on iPhone day because if you recall I did pick up for the first time in years
0:49:38for these iPhones a couple of what last month and even then I waited like I don't know 10 minutes
0:49:44maybe maybe and I was in and out and five after I tried to get upsell upsold on AppleCare and
0:49:50screen protectors and all the other very sundry things Apple wants to make money off of, but
0:49:53that's neither here nor there.
0:49:54For whatever it's worth, by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt here, I've had great experiences
0:50:00with the Long Island Apple stores. Like, you know, the Westchester ones are pretty decent.
0:50:04The ones in the city are, you know, very crowded, very dense, you know, you have to wait on
0:50:08lines, it's a little chaotic. The ones in Westchester are much nicer. The ones on Long
0:50:13Island have been, honestly, even better. Like, I'm really surprised. And I think it's mostly
0:50:18because like not a lot of there's not a lot of nerds on Long Island like that I
0:50:24don't know where they are I have I haven't located them what are you
0:50:26talking about oh John's upset John's upset not a lot of nerds on Long Island
0:50:31nerd said where do they where do they keep them where they're all they're all
0:50:36too busy doing extra credit activity so they look good in their college
0:50:39applications well they're not in the Apple Store and so therefore they're
0:50:42never crowded but they're but they're probably working at the Apple Store well
0:50:45- Well, yeah, that's true, because the staff has been great.
0:50:48I'm actually, there's two stores I go to
0:50:50that are close to me on Long Island here,
0:50:52and they're both, so far, fantastic.
0:50:55And because there are no more nerds on Long Island
0:50:58who don't already work at the Apple stores,
0:51:00there's almost no one ever in there.
0:51:02And so you get, there's tons of staff,
0:51:04very few customers, instant service.
0:51:06Like, it's been fantastic.
0:51:08- And also you're going there when people are at work.
0:51:10It occurs to me that I have no idea
0:51:12where any Apple stores are on Long Island,
0:51:13because I didn't live there when Apple stores became a thing.
0:51:15So what stores are you going to?
0:51:17- My primary one is the Walt Whitman Mall one.
0:51:19- I was gonna say, like, Walt Whitman would be my first guess
0:51:22where one would be, although I, I mean,
0:51:24I don't really relish going there,
0:51:25but I haven't been in ages.
0:51:26But yeah, that's, you know,
0:51:28ones in malls have the advantage that malls are dying,
0:51:31so there's probably not a lot there except for, like,
0:51:33you know, the Orange Julius in the Apple Store.
0:51:36- Oh, Orange Julius, yes!
0:51:39Oh, I love being Orange Julius.
0:51:41- Are they still in business?
0:51:41I don't know.
0:51:42It's weird walking through malls these days though,
0:51:44'cause you walk past, there's, you know,
0:51:46most of the stores, well, there's different kinds of malls.
0:51:51- Spirit Halloween is in most of the places, right?
0:51:53(laughing)
0:51:54- What?
0:51:55- Because they always go and swoop in the defunct stores
0:51:58and take over around Halloween time.
0:51:59- Yeah, you don't know about Spirit Halloween?
0:52:01- Oh, yeah, there's cheap seasonal stores.
0:52:04- Yep.
0:52:05- Yeah, but anyway, no, there's, let me see,
0:52:07where's the other one that I went to?
0:52:09The other one was in Smith Haven, yeah, that's the other one.
0:52:12That mall is not in as good a shape,
0:52:15but Walt Whitman's in really good shape.
0:52:18And it's all like, it's internet brands.
0:52:21It's like Casper and Warby Parker.
0:52:24Like it's all like the podcast ad brands that you hear.
0:52:28They now have stores in upscale malls
0:52:31and that's what's taking all the mall stuff now.
0:52:33Anyway, it is weird though, walking through a mall
0:52:36'cause even the good malls are a shadow
0:52:40of what they once were and are largely empty.
0:52:44It's very strange.
0:52:46- I brought my wedding ring at a jewelry store
0:52:47in Smith Haven Mall.
0:52:49- Aww.
0:52:49- I used to ride my bike there.
0:52:51- Wow.
0:52:53- You were very close.
0:52:55So yeah, so I picked up my iPad Pro.
0:52:57I did not get any accessories because my hope, in theory,
0:52:59was I could repurpose all the accessories
0:53:01for my 2018 iPad Pro, which is going to be retired.
0:53:05I had spoken briefly about, oh, maybe I'll just cancel this,
0:53:07but because I'm a big liar,
0:53:11I did not cancel this obviously.
0:53:13But I did get it.
0:53:14I have not had a lot of time to play with it,
0:53:17but you know what, it's like a much better battery,
0:53:21much faster, I guess,
0:53:24much less scratch screen version of my 2018 iPad Pro.
0:53:29I put it in the 2018, or no, I guess it was 2020,
0:53:33Magic Keyboard case, and it fit no problem.
0:53:36In fact, if I recall correctly,
0:53:37when they came out with last year's iPad Pro,
0:53:41they said, "Oh, it's not gonna fit
0:53:42"in the 2020 edition case.
0:53:43"It's not gonna fit right."
0:53:44And then they came out a few days later, a week later,
0:53:46and was like, "Well, it'll fit,
0:53:48"but it's gonna be not 100% perfect.
0:53:51"Maybe I just don't have the eye for it,
0:53:53"but it seems like it fits perfectly," which is great.
0:53:56So I'm using Magic Keyboard, which I love.
0:54:00The pencil synced, no problem.
0:54:02- Wait, what about the camera hole?
0:54:05- Oh, or did the Magic Keyboard come out late enough
0:54:07so that it had the larger camera plateau of the M1 iPad?
0:54:10- Correct, well I don't think it was an M1 at the time,
0:54:12but it was, the spirit of what you're saying is correct,
0:54:15that it had the big square hole.
0:54:19- Oh, the A12Z iPad, the one that added the LiDAR sensor,
0:54:23right, that's what--
0:54:24- Yeah, I think that's right. - Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.
0:54:27- So yeah, that fit, no problem, all good.
0:54:29Pencil obviously works, no problem, all good.
0:54:31And so I've dug out my old, what is it,
0:54:34the keyboard, not folio, the thing
0:54:37that's not a kickstandy one, not the new kickstandy one,
0:54:40but like the--
0:54:40- It's the Magic Folio keyboard.
0:54:42- Oh, it is, okay, thank you.
0:54:43- The Smart Keyboard Folio, that's the one I use.
0:54:45- The Smart, yeah, the Smart Magic Folio Keyboard Folio.
0:54:48- Yeah. - Oh, God, it's so bad.
0:54:49Anyway, but yes, that thing, so I busted that back out.
0:54:52- I like what Gruber clarified.
0:54:54Magic means it has a trackpad, right?
0:54:56So that clarifies one whole section of it.
0:55:00- It's so clear, I don't know why it's not obvious.
0:55:02- Right, yeah.
0:55:03- Track pads are magic.
0:55:04- Right, oh man.
0:55:05You know, I was just thinking earlier
0:55:07as I was washing dishes, 'cause that's when I do my thinking,
0:55:10wouldn't it be amazing if Apple just had like
0:55:14one iPad keyboard and one iPad cover
0:55:19that you could use on all of their 11-ish-inch iPads?
0:55:24And I instantly knew why they don't do that.
0:55:28'Cause even after all this time,
0:55:30the iPad is still not designed for covers or keyboards
0:55:35to attach to them very well.
0:55:38If they were, they would have to make sacrifices
0:55:41on the physical shape in some way.
0:55:43Maybe having an attachment slot,
0:55:46kinda like the way the Apple Watch straps
0:55:49slide into a groove in the case.
0:55:51If there was something like that,
0:55:54or some way for things to physically attach securely
0:55:58to an iPad without just magnetically sticking to the back?
0:56:01- I mean the magnets are pretty good though.
0:56:03I think they do, I like the magnets.
0:56:05I think they do a good job with getting the cases.
0:56:07I didn't think I would like them 'cause I used to have
0:56:08like on my original 9.7 inch Pro.
0:56:10Do you remember the cases that came,
0:56:11the Apple cases for the 9.7 inch Pro?
0:56:13They actually like wrapped around the edges
0:56:15and hooked over the front.
0:56:16Those were great, very secure.
0:56:18I really loved that.
0:56:19My son's got that iPad now,
0:56:20although it's kind of fun, it's last legs.
0:56:22But the flat ones, the sort of ice cream sandwich ones
0:56:25that go on the flat ones now,
0:56:27It doesn't look like it should work,
0:56:28but they work pretty well.
0:56:30I think where things start to fall apart
0:56:31is the keyboard stuff,
0:56:32'cause I'm just talking about the flat cases or whatever,
0:56:34but once you start putting in more heavyweight things
0:56:37in there or trying to construct a little precarious laptop
0:56:40out of it, that's where you need like the
0:56:43apparently extremely expensive technology in the,
0:56:46well, you should finish telling me the adjective things.
0:56:48Magic means it has a track lab.
0:56:49What does it mean when it costs 300 something dollars
0:56:51and had like this weird armature inside it?
0:56:53- Oh, that just means iPad keyboard.
0:56:55- No, you know what I'm talking about?
0:56:56It's Casey's one.
0:56:57that holds the thing up.
0:56:58Is there a word in the product name
0:56:59that lets me know it's that one,
0:57:00or is it just the price?
0:57:01- No, the price tells you very clearly, yeah.
0:57:03Yeah, no, it's just, and so, as far as I can tell,
0:57:06is magic ever used with folio,
0:57:11or are those mutually exclusive?
0:57:12'Cause I think folio means the old kind
0:57:15where it's just like two flat things
0:57:17that sandwich together, right?
0:57:19And there's usually--
0:57:20- Yeah, folio is actually a word that means something,
0:57:21so I give them some leeway on that one,
0:57:23like it makes some sense.
0:57:24- Yeah, and there's no trackpad with Folio,
0:57:27as far as I'm aware.
0:57:28- Well, slow down so we can get this all wrong.
0:57:29The Magic Keyboard Folio is a $250 thing--
0:57:32- That has a trackpad, yeah.
0:57:33- That has a trackpad that is for the iPad,
0:57:35which by the way, I did play with in store very briefly.
0:57:38It was good.
0:57:39- Oh, smart is what's mutually exclusive from Magic.
0:57:42All right, so it can either be smart or magic,
0:57:45and smart means it does not have a trackpad.
0:57:49Magic means it does and costs a bajillion dollars.
0:57:52Not that the smart ones are particularly inexpensive,
0:57:54they're just less insanely expensive.
0:57:57- And that again makes no sense.
0:57:59Because magic is not the opposite of smart
0:58:00and neither one says anything about track pants.
0:58:02- Yeah, I know.
0:58:03But anyway, it is, I would love to someday get to a point
0:58:06in Apple's iPad lineup, and obviously it's all jumbled up
0:58:08right now and we discussed possibly why
0:58:10with supply chain and whatever,
0:58:11but I would love to get to a point in Apple's lineup
0:58:14where every new iPad doesn't have its own
0:58:18completely different and incompatible set of accessories.
0:58:21'Cause if they're gonna have this lineup
0:58:22that has many different models in it.
0:58:25Obviously, between the 11-ish inch size class
0:58:28and the 12.9 inch, yeah, you gotta have
0:58:30a different keyboard for that
0:58:32because it's a very different size.
0:58:33But there are so many iPads now in the 11-ish inch range
0:58:37that are all almost the same size.
0:58:39Like if they just made them all the same size
0:58:43and made them all use the same frickin' pencil
0:58:45and the same two or three keyboard options,
0:58:48different price and complexity categories,
0:58:50that would be so nice.
0:58:52'Cause as it is right now, it's so absurdly,
0:58:56I mean, it's expensive for one,
0:58:58but I don't think they would see that as a bad thing.
0:59:00But it's also just incredibly wasteful.
0:59:02Like there's all the, you know,
0:59:04when I upgraded from my old A12X 2018 iPad
0:59:09that Casey just updated away from,
0:59:10to the M1 this past summer,
0:59:13I had to get a new keyboard cover
0:59:14because the old one didn't,
0:59:16it wouldn't fit the camera plateau of the new one.
0:59:18- Oh yeah, that's a bummer.
0:59:20- It felt dumb.
0:59:21Like why am I, like there goes 180 bucks or whatever
0:59:24that I didn't have to spend,
0:59:25and then what do I do with this keyboard?
0:59:27Like I tried to give it away to family members
0:59:29who still had the old iPad, they didn't need it.
0:59:31I ended up, it's in a closet somewhere,
0:59:33I've forgotten exactly where,
0:59:35and you know, probably in two or three years
0:59:37I'll find it and throw it away.
0:59:38That's a waste, you know?
0:59:39And there's so many situations like that
0:59:41where like if they would stop changing the accessories
0:59:44like every year for these iPads
0:59:45that change a few millimeters here and there,
0:59:48and you know, the camera bump gets a little bit bigger,
0:59:50moves around, if they could design them in a more
0:59:53holistic and forward looking way so that both the iPads
0:59:56and the accessories, design them both together
0:59:58to create a world where there's just like,
1:00:02there's an iPad keyboard and there's an iPad keyboard
1:00:04with a trackpad and those come in two sizes and that's it.
1:00:07Like that would be amazing.
1:00:09- Now those keyboards and covers that attach though
1:00:12are in many respects wear items for iPads.
1:00:15Like that they're not, they are the outside of the thing.
1:00:18They are going to wear down.
1:00:20They are going to degrade just like the brakes on your car
1:00:23and the oil in your engine, or not your engine, Marco,
1:00:25well, one of your engines, anyway.
1:00:27And so I think their useful lifetime is not great,
1:00:30which really argues on not being $300 items,
1:00:34because by the time you're done with that iPad,
1:00:36if it has a nice long life,
1:00:37those accessories, if you actually use them,
1:00:39are pretty beat up.
1:00:40I think what they've currently done,
1:00:42like with the Pro lines, the flat-sided iPad Pros,
1:00:46they've had some amount of accessory continuity,
1:00:49But I don't think you can hope for accessory continuity
1:00:52anymore for any longer stretches than you get
1:00:55on the laptops, right?
1:00:57Not that laptops have many accessories,
1:00:58but there are generational form factor changes
1:01:01and there's no way that Apple is going to make an accessory
1:01:04or a form factor change with an eye towards making
1:01:08the same accessory work across generations like that.
1:01:10They just won't.
1:01:11The cameras will change and move.
1:01:13They will decide it's a different size,
1:01:14a different shape, has different accessories,
1:01:16different ports, different attachment things
1:01:17for the pencil.
1:01:19there's no way that they're going to have that continuity.
1:01:22And on the phone, occasionally they've had multiple years
1:01:26in a row where you could share accessories,
1:01:27but that's about it.
1:01:29And the phone is probably the closest analog,
1:01:31because why do they keep changing size and shape?
1:01:33Well, arguably the phone has even less reason
1:01:35to change size and shape, because the possible forms,
1:01:38the possible sizes for phones are much more narrow
1:01:41than an iPad, which goes from the mini to the 12.9 inch
1:01:45and could go even bigger than that.
1:01:46There's plenty of room for a bigger iPad
1:01:48we talked about all the time,
1:01:49and the cameras move around, all the buttons move around,
1:01:53I don't think you're ever gonna see continuity in that area.
1:01:56It would be nice if they could at least have continuity
1:01:58of attachment point and then just have
1:02:01the cutouts be different or whatever.
1:02:03But I mean, if you think of it,
1:02:07you don't have continuity of keyboards across laptops
1:02:09'cause when you buy a new laptop,
1:02:10it comes with its own new keyboard
1:02:11that exactly fits that laptop 'cause they don't detach.
1:02:13They're not detachable.
1:02:14but because the iPad is a floppy keyboard sold a la carte,
1:02:19you have to end up buying the accessories
1:02:22and you should count yourself lucky
1:02:23if like Casey your accessory actually lasts
1:02:25through more than one device.
1:02:26But I don't think,
1:02:28you know, we're not like we're gonna reach a point
1:02:29where they say, well, we're done with the cameras,
1:02:30we're not gonna improve them anymore.
1:02:32And I also don't think Apple's gonna do the thing
1:02:33where they say, let's make a camera race that's massive
1:02:36that will hold us for the next 10 years
1:02:37'cause that's just not the Apple way.
1:02:39- To that end though, the Magic Keyboard, right?
1:02:43not the folio, but the magic keyboard,
1:02:45the cantilever thing.
1:02:46Mine is definitely showing its age
1:02:48after just a couple of years.
1:02:49And I don't travel with my iPad,
1:02:52I shouldn't say travel.
1:02:53I don't bring my iPad everywhere.
1:02:55I use it probably daily,
1:02:58and I will often bring it in the car or something
1:03:01if I'm gonna be a passenger for a while.
1:03:03But it is definitely showing its age.
1:03:05Like some of the outer,
1:03:07I don't know how to describe this,
1:03:08but like the outer thin layers kind of peeling away
1:03:11to show the interior layer on some of the edges
1:03:14and in some spots.
1:03:15And yeah, it is a wear item at, what is this,
1:03:18like 350 bucks that I paid for this,
1:03:20or something like that, whatever scene amount of money is.
1:03:22- Yeah, 300, I think it's like 300 and 350
1:03:24for the two sizes.
1:03:25- Wait 'til you find out how much brake pads cost.
1:03:27- Yeah, right. (laughs)
1:03:28- A lot of that's labor though, so still.
1:03:30- Especially if you drive a German car, let me tell you.
1:03:33But anyway, yeah, it's 300 bucks,
1:03:35I think you are right, Marco.
1:03:36- Does the car's nationality make it drive faster
1:03:39and need more braking?
1:03:40- And it does make the parts more expensive.
1:03:42- It makes the parts more expensive.
1:03:44But I did play very briefly with Magic Keyboard Folio
1:03:47in the new iPad 10th generation.
1:03:50I only spent just 30, 45 seconds with it,
1:03:53but I mean, it was nice.
1:03:54I liked it, I don't have too much to say about it.
1:03:56I agree that kickstands are not really my jam
1:03:59'cause I do use my iPad on my lap,
1:04:01especially in the car, but not exclusively in the car,
1:04:03kind of a lot, and kickstands are not a great fit for that.
1:04:06I do like the kind of tearability of this new Magic Keyboard Folio where you can just
1:04:12kind of like tear the iPad off of it and the keyboard is kind of left behind and you still
1:04:17have the kickstand attached.
1:04:18But honestly it's not particularly hard to get the iPad out of the Magic Keyboard, the
1:04:23cantilevered Magic Keyboard.
1:04:25So I don't think this is for me, obviously, but if you're a folio kickstandy kind of person
1:04:32then it's nice.
1:04:33But yeah, my new iPad, I like it.
1:04:37It is not a revolutionary change from the 2018 model, which I knew.
1:04:43One of the things I like about it is that it does have 5G and much faster cellular,
1:04:48because I am a huge fan, as I think we covered last week, huge fan of cellular iPads.
1:04:53And so I am looking forward to being able to use this on my beloved "Don't Call It a
1:04:56Park Bench but Picnic" table and get my, hypothetically, get my ridiculously fast speeds.
1:05:02I was very flummoxed for a moment as I was doing the transfer from one iPad to the other
1:05:07because it wouldn't let me just port the cellular account.
1:05:11And I was like, "What?"
1:05:13And it said that it was there, but it was like grayed out.
1:05:15Like I couldn't port it from the old iPad.
1:05:17And I was like, "What?
1:05:18Oh, oh right, this has an actual physical SIM.
1:05:20How quickly we forget what physical SIMs are?"
1:05:23So I just had a brain fart and I didn't even remember it.
1:05:28It is a little weird though that this M2 equipped iPad Pro is on paper kind of sort of more
1:05:35powerful than the MacBook Pro I'm talking to you on right now.
1:05:38I looked up Geekbench scores.
1:05:40I only spent a moment on this, but I found a Geekbench score that I think is for an equivalent
1:05:44of my M1 Max MacBook Pro.
1:05:47Single core score 1337, lite.
1:05:50Multi core 10, 155.
1:05:52So 1337, 10,155.
1:05:55On the M2 MacBook Air, because I couldn't find one on the iPad Pro, M2 MacBook Air,
1:06:00which hypothetically should be the same, single core is 1930, so a change of about 44% if
1:06:06I did that math right, so it's 1930 instead of 1337.
1:06:10Multi-core score is down a bit though, 8926 instead of 10155.
1:06:15So in single core anyway, this iPad is faster than my computer, even though iPadOS is crippling
1:06:22it in every measurable way, but that's neither here nor there.
1:06:25It's a weird feeling.
1:06:26I'm not sure how I feel about that, but nevertheless, it's fast.
1:06:30I like it.
1:06:31The transfer process was a little bit wonky, but all in all, it worked mostly okay.
1:06:38One of the things that I really love about Apple, I just love this, is that there are
1:06:42times when there's a spinner and that's it.
1:06:47It's just spinning.
1:06:48I don't have a progress bar.
1:06:50I don't have any feedback.
1:06:52No sort of log or anything I can look at.
1:06:54Nope, just spinning.
1:06:56You should count yourself lucky to have a spinner,
1:06:58because the ailment that I see in a lot of Apple's UIs,
1:07:01they do this thing that I've been conditioned by years
1:07:03as a web developer never to do, which is you do something
1:07:07to go to the next step in a process, click a button,
1:07:10tap a link, enter something in a field or whatever.
1:07:13And before you get to the point where it shows a spinner
1:07:16or any kind of progress, there is this long period of time
1:07:19where all of the controls on the screen that you're on
1:07:22are still perfectly active, still sitting there.
1:07:24that button that you pressed,
1:07:25it may have even highlighted when you pressed it.
1:07:27It could be a button that says next, continue, save, update,
1:07:30whatever it is that you think you did.
1:07:32You pressed it, maybe if you're lucky,
1:07:34you saw it highlight when you pressed it.
1:07:36And there's this period of time
1:07:38where the page is just staring at you going like,
1:07:40yeah, here I am on the screen
1:07:42that you just thought you interacted with, right?
1:07:44Nothing on the screen, absolutely nothing.
1:07:46And then six seconds later, oh, a spinner appears.
1:07:50It's like, that is the worst, because I understand,
1:07:54Maybe it's like there's a lag or a server thing or whatever,
1:07:56but because on the web you're accustomed to the idea
1:07:59that you are distant from your user,
1:08:01you must provide immediate feedback that says,
1:08:04disable the Submit button,
1:08:08cover the screen with something immediately.
1:08:11Client-side, let them know that you have successfully
1:08:13performed an operation that we are then going
1:08:16to do something about.
1:08:17You don't have to click anymore.
1:08:19Don't try to interact with the screen anymore.
1:08:21You're done with the screen.
1:08:22You have to communicate that immediately,
1:08:24not in a way that requires you to get a response
1:08:26from a server before you do that.
1:08:28I cannot count the number of things I've done with Apple,
1:08:30including things like buying stuff or whatever,
1:08:32where you interact with the screen,
1:08:34and then it just sits there staring at you,
1:08:36looking exactly like it did before you interacted with it,
1:08:38and you're like, okay, did that work?
1:08:42Should I press it?
1:08:45Oh, a spinner, okay.
1:08:46The worst, the worst Apple.
1:08:48Apple University, there should be,
1:08:50I know that's not what Apple University is about,
1:08:51but there should be an Apple University
1:08:53that reminds people of the basic rules of user interface.
1:08:56Let the user know immediately
1:08:57that they have successfully done the thing
1:08:59and do not let them attempt to do anything else.
1:09:01I'm smart enough not to go back
1:09:03and start stabbing at the screen,
1:09:04but how many people are just like,
1:09:05"Oh, did that work?
1:09:06"Let me press it again, let me press it again."
1:09:08Disable the buttons, cover the screen,
1:09:10put something up immediately.
1:09:11Anyway, rant over.
1:09:12- Well, so I was at the stage, enter iPad passcode,
1:09:16you know, and it says,
1:09:17"The passcode you used to unlock this iPad
1:09:18"will also be used to access safe passwords
1:09:19and other sensitive data you store in iCloud. So I entered it and the next or
1:09:24continue or done whatever button in the upper right hand corner of this like
1:09:27window turned into a spinner and I waited and I waited and I waited. I have
1:09:34no idea what's happening. It would be super cool Apple if you could give me
1:09:38any amount of feedback as to whether or not this is progressing. So eventually I
1:09:44mashed down on the lock button and it puts puts up a little like alert saying
1:09:47"Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
1:09:48you haven't done setting up.
1:09:50You haven't finished setting up.
1:09:51What do you wanna do here?"
1:09:52- How long was eventually?
1:09:53- I don't know, I think I had like five minutes, maybe.
1:09:56And maybe it was spinning, who knows?
1:09:58Who knows?
1:09:59- I feel like the amount of time
1:10:00that you wait in an indeterminate spinner
1:10:02is sort of like, it's always based on your estimation
1:10:05of how long you think this should take,
1:10:07and also your estimation of the,
1:10:09what are the consequences
1:10:11if I interrupt this in the middle and it screws stuff up.
1:10:13Setting up an iPad, consequences don't seem that bad.
1:10:15You haven't actually done anything yet,
1:10:16It's not filled with your stuff yet, or even if it is,
1:10:18you can always redo it.
1:10:19So you might have not much patience there,
1:10:21but there are other operations where you're like,
1:10:22I'm literally gonna let this sit overnight
1:10:24because if it screws up, I'm gonna have a real problem.
1:10:27- Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
1:10:28But please, Apple, I know you're allergic
1:10:31to providing any sort of, I don't know,
1:10:33useful friggin' feedback about what's going on,
1:10:35but it would be nice if, hey, I don't know,
1:10:38maybe you could give us a little bit of feedback
1:10:41other than it's spinning.
1:10:43It's spinning.
1:10:45It's spinning, like come on, please.
1:10:48Please. - At least you got
1:10:49the spinner. - That's true.
1:10:50So anyway, so what I ended up doing was shutting it down,
1:10:52restarting it, and to Apple's credit,
1:10:54like, you know, everything came up,
1:10:55and when I went to settings, it was like,
1:10:57oh, you're not finished setting up your iPad.
1:10:58Let's continue where you left off.
1:10:59- And by not finished setting up,
1:11:00it means you haven't signed up for Apple Arcade yet.
1:11:03- Yeah, yeah, true. (laughing)
1:11:05But the most annoying thing, and it actually did--
1:11:06- More ads, just more ads.
1:11:09- So the most annoying thing about it, though,
1:11:10in my personal opinion, is test flight apps,
1:11:14which maybe this is like a, this is a,
1:11:16it's fine for Marco Merlin, whatever sort of thing,
1:11:18but TestFlight apps don't do any sort of auto downloading,
1:11:21like TestFlight itself auto downloads,
1:11:22but then you have to go in and like download them all.
1:11:24And on the iPad anyway,
1:11:26it didn't put them back in the location,
1:11:27the icons back in locations I wanted the icons,
1:11:30you know, from the last iPad.
1:11:31I think it might've done that properly on the phone,
1:11:33I don't recall, but that was really frustrating.
1:11:35I'd really like it if Apple could fix that.
1:11:37The time estimate it gave for the transfer
1:11:39was under promised and over delivered,
1:11:41so I was happy about that.
1:11:42It took me about an hour and change, I think,
1:11:45something along those lines.
1:11:46But all in all, it's nice.
1:11:47The hover thing is cool.
1:11:50I mean, I don't know if it's really doing much for me,
1:11:52but it's neat that it works in that it, you know,
1:11:54when you're using the pencil as kind of like a pointer,
1:11:58it feels very similar to basically the same, in fact,
1:12:01as having the point, you know, the mouse pointer
1:12:03or cursor or whatever, the mouse pointer, you know,
1:12:06jiggling around the screen, which is neat.
1:12:08I like it when you're writing a note,
1:12:09you can see a little dot for where you're about
1:12:11start writing in Notes. Yeah, I like it. There's nothing about this that has revolutionized my world
1:12:17yet, but I am happy to have a four-year newer battery. I'm happy to have a four-year less
1:12:22damaged screen. Not that I dropped it or anything, just the other one has a lot of scratches.
1:12:26I'm happy to have 5G. So far so good. And I'm genuinely very, very happy that the old accessories
1:12:33do indeed, though they're the ones I care about anyway, do indeed still work with this, which was
1:12:38a welcome chain. I mean I knew that was supposed to be the case but it's not the
1:12:43way it often is so I'm pretty happy about that. So far I would say if
1:12:47you're coming off a 2018 or newer model, yeah, I mean do you want to spend a whole
1:12:51bunch of money or do you not? But if you're coming off of something older or
1:12:54perhaps not an iPad Pro, heck yeah man, go for it. It's good stuff.
1:12:59We are brought to you this week by Collide. Collide is an endpoint security
1:13:05solution that uses the most powerful untapped resource in IT, end users.
1:13:10When you're trying to achieve security goals, whether for a third-party audit or your own
1:13:13compliance standards, conventional wisdom is to treat every device like Fort Knox.
1:13:18Old-school device management tools like MDMs force disruptive agents onto employee devices
1:13:23that slow performance down and treat privacy as an afterthought.
1:13:27That way of doing things turns IT admins and end users into enemies of each other and it
1:13:31its own security problems because users turn to shadow IT just to do their jobs.
1:13:36Collide does things differently. Instead of forcing changes on users, Collide sends
1:13:42them security recommendations via Slack. Collide will automatically notify your
1:13:46team when their devices are insecure and give them step-by-step instructions on
1:13:49how to solve the problem. By reaching out to employees via a friendly Slack DM and
1:13:54educating them about company policies, Collide can help you build a culture in
1:13:58much everyone contributes to security,
1:14:00because everyone understands how and why to do it.
1:14:03For IT admins, Collide provides a single dashboard
1:14:06that lets you monitor the security of your entire fleet,
1:14:08whether they're running on Mac, Windows, or Linux.
1:14:11You can see at a glance which employees have their disks
1:14:13encrypted, have their OS up to date,
1:14:15password manager installed, making
1:14:17it easy to prove compliance to your auditors, customers,
1:14:20and leadership.
1:14:21So that's Collide, user-centered,
1:14:23cross-platform endpoint security for teams that slack.
1:14:27You can meet your compliance goals by putting users first.
1:14:31Visit collide.com/ATP to find out how.
1:14:34If you follow that link, they'll hook you up
1:14:36with a goodie bag, including a t-shirt,
1:14:38just for activating a free trial.
1:14:40That's collide, K-O-L-I-D-E, .com/ATP.
1:14:45Thank you so much to Collide for sponsoring our show.
1:14:49- All right, let's talk about Ventura 16.1,
1:14:54and iPadOS 16.1 and so on.
1:14:57I really, really, really wanna talk about stage manager,
1:15:00but let's save that for a moment.
1:15:02Did you know system preferences on Ventura
1:15:05is a hot friggin' mess?
1:15:07Oh my God, why didn't anyone say anything about this?
1:15:10It's terrible!
1:15:11- I think you mean system settings.
1:15:14- Oh yeah, whatever.
1:15:16No, it is bad.
1:15:17It doesn't look good.
1:15:20I don't think it functions well.
1:15:22I think there are decent bones here
1:15:24and I think it could get better,
1:15:25but ooh, it is not good right now.
1:15:28Do not want.
1:15:29- Yeah, I've only used it briefly.
1:15:32So we were saying earlier about how
1:15:35the login items thing has changed.
1:15:37There are areas of it that are better.
1:15:40There is new functionality.
1:15:42There is old functionality that has been improved,
1:15:45like some of the ways that you had to give permissions
1:15:47for certain things earlier or approve kernel extensions
1:15:50and stuff like that.
1:15:51the way in the old System Preferences app was a disaster.
1:15:55Anything that had the lock on the bottom of the screen,
1:15:57you had to first notice that, unlock it.
1:16:00- Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.
1:16:02- There were so many things about the old Settings app,
1:16:04the System Preferences app, rather,
1:16:06that were terrible and that needed to be improved.
1:16:10And so this is not to say that we should necessarily
1:16:14keep it the same forever the way it used to be.
1:16:16However, the new settings app is just a really cheap
1:16:21and crappy feeling.
1:16:23Like it feels like a web view.
1:16:26It feels like a non-native app.
1:16:29It feels like something that we would make fun of.
1:16:32- Web views are resizable.
1:16:33- Oh yeah.
1:16:35Yeah, like it just, it does not feel like
1:16:38a high quality app.
1:16:39It does not fit in with the system at all.
1:16:42It is, like all the little dumb little like iOS switches
1:16:45that I have to now control with a mouse awkwardly.
1:16:48Apple has been arguing for years,
1:16:51touch interfaces and computer,
1:16:54like desktop, laptop interfaces are different.
1:16:57And it's best to design them differently
1:17:00and optimize for their respective inputs and input methods.
1:17:05I guess all that logic went out the window
1:17:07because now they've brought over
1:17:08like iOS switch controls and stuff
1:17:10that make no sense on the Mac
1:17:13in the name of, I guess, consistency,
1:17:15but I think it's more like they don't have
1:17:17any more engineers working inside of Apple
1:17:19who know AppKit, and so they're forced
1:17:22to use all of this, like, SwiftUI.
1:17:24I don't know, but whatever it is,
1:17:27they've changed this major part of the Mac.
1:17:30The settings app is a major part of the Mac.
1:17:33Alongside some of the good they have done
1:17:35with the additional functionality
1:17:36and the rethinking of some of the crappier areas
1:17:38of the old system preferences app,
1:17:40alongside of that, they've wrapped this all
1:17:42in this pretty terrible UI.
1:17:46Both the technical bones of it, I think,
1:17:48are really kind of sloppy, and more importantly,
1:17:51like the UI design of it.
1:17:53Technical bugs you could improve over time.
1:17:56The whole UI paradigm and the UI design of it
1:18:00are just terrible, and they just feel crappy.
1:18:03They don't feel like you're using a Mac.
1:18:05It feels like you're using a Samsung-made web app
1:18:09that's made to look, or like, remember like when
1:18:11the iPhone first came out and it was the hot thing.
1:18:14People made these WordPress themes
1:18:15that would make your WordPress blog appear
1:18:18like an iPhone app when viewed in Mobile Safari.
1:18:20Remember those?
1:18:22And they were horrible.
1:18:23Like you'd let--
1:18:23- Fake table views and the whole rigmarole.
1:18:25- Yeah, and like fake navigation bars.
1:18:29So it would be like skinned like an iOS app
1:18:32in your WordPress blog when viewed in Mobile Safari
1:18:34back forever ago, right?
1:18:36But you'd use it as the user
1:18:37and it just felt like a crappy web page version
1:18:42of an iOS interface, not like the real thing.
1:18:45- I feel like that's insulting to web pages
1:18:47because if I had given this job,
1:18:49hey, we have system preferences,
1:18:51it's a mess, we need it to be redesigned.
1:18:53- Give that to any web designer.
1:18:55They will design something better than this
1:18:57because they'll understand the job.
1:18:59They'll know they have to make it responsive,
1:19:02they'll make it work well in the allotted space,
1:19:04maybe if you make the window wider,
1:19:06it will expand into that place.
1:19:09The state of the art of web design
1:19:11could tackle this problem.
1:19:12It is basically an information architecture problem,
1:19:15which is a discipline that maybe you buy a different name,
1:19:18maybe they call it, it's under the umbrella of UX these days,
1:19:20but IA used to be a big thing
1:19:22back in the early days of the web.
1:19:23And the problem was, oh, we've got this big company,
1:19:25we gotta make a website.
1:19:26How do we make that, how do we organize that
1:19:28and make it tractable and able to serve the user's needs?
1:19:32Because when someone comes to our website,
1:19:33they probably want to accomplish something.
1:19:35Do they want to find out what the hours of a restaurant is?
1:19:37Do they want to download the menu?
1:19:38Do they want to find out where the locations
1:19:40of our stores are?
1:19:41Do they want to shop for something and buy it?
1:19:43Do they want to find out information about our products?
1:19:45Like, do they want to find a contact address?
1:19:47Like, that's just information architecture.
1:19:48I mean, faced with an entire website for like a big company,
1:19:51web designers would come in and they would figure out
1:19:54how do we organize this information,
1:19:56how do we present it to people in a way
1:19:57that they can navigate it,
1:19:59that they understand where they are,
1:20:01that they can find what they want and accomplish their task.
1:20:03And that is a, you know, I mean, it's not,
1:20:06the web is not the place where all its disciplines came out,
1:20:08but it is the most recent and most closely analogous problem
1:20:11to organizing system settings.
1:20:13When I look at this, I say,
1:20:14any half-decent web designer would have done better at this.
1:20:17Forget about the technologies behind it,
1:20:18although I think if you did it as a web view,
1:20:19it would still be nicer than this.
1:20:21But what they wouldn't do is make it a fixed-size,
1:20:24two-pane master detail thing
1:20:25with multiple levels of hidden hierarchy
1:20:27that within each thing pops up additional windows
1:20:31on top of everything that look incredibly janky,
1:20:34there are places in this thing where there's like,
1:20:35you have to know that the little I in a circle
1:20:37next to something is actually a button
1:20:39that leads you to more settings in a pop-up window
1:20:41that displays over the top of things,
1:20:43and there's also a button called options,
1:20:45and there's also a little button with three dots on it
1:20:47and a downward-facing arrow all on the same screen.
1:20:50What is this?
1:20:51Have they ever seen a computer before?
1:20:53No one on the web would do that.
1:20:54No one would ever put those controls on the web
1:20:56because nobody has any idea what they are.
1:20:58It is such a mess, it makes me so angry,
1:21:01and this is setting aside any bugs of like,
1:21:03oh, it doesn't display properly
1:21:05and something is truncated or whatever.
1:21:06This just, I mean, I'm getting angry about this
1:21:09because like during the whole time it's like,
1:21:11oh, it's just a baby, it'll get better,
1:21:12you'll see, whatever.
1:21:13And I held my tongue 'cause let's see what it looks like.
1:21:15But in the end, like you said, Marco,
1:21:18the bones of this thing, they're wrong, they're bad.
1:21:21And comparing it to the web, it's like, seriously,
1:21:24this is a web design task, it's not that tricky,
1:21:26it's not as big as a big corporate website,
1:21:28but it should have been tackled in that way.
1:21:30And when I look at this, I think about Windows,
1:21:33which I have limited experience with,
1:21:34but you know, anyone who's used Windows
1:21:36had seen the various runs that Microsoft has taken
1:21:38at reimagining and reorganizing their system settings
1:21:42from Windows 7 to Windows 8 to Windows 10.
1:21:46I'm not gonna particularly endorse
1:21:48the approaches that they've taken,
1:21:50but every single one of those approaches
1:21:52to redesigning settings in Windows
1:21:54is more thoughtful and better executed
1:21:58than system settings in Ventura.
1:21:59And when I'm saying something in Windows was not,
1:22:02not necessarily better,
1:22:03but more thoughtful and better executed.
1:22:05When I look at settings in Windows 10,
1:22:07I can understand how they arrived at this,
1:22:11how they put their minds together,
1:22:12the meetings they had, they said,
1:22:13"Here's what we have to organize.
1:22:14"Here's the things that most people do.
1:22:15"How can we put that in a UI?"
1:22:17And I know it's working,
1:22:18because I have no idea where anything is in Windows,
1:22:19and I can navigate it to get my job set.
1:22:22It annoys me, because I think it is a wrapper
1:22:24over the real settings that are underneath,
1:22:25and you gotta click properties
1:22:27to get to the thing you really want
1:22:28down in some UI from 1995,
1:22:30like I'm not endorsing the Windows approach,
1:22:32but it's clear that it was better thought out than this.
1:22:35'Cause this is like, this strikes me as something
1:22:37where they had too small of a team
1:22:39and not the right people on this team.
1:22:41Because what you needed, not that you needed web designers,
1:22:43but you needed information architects and UI designers.
1:22:48And then secondarily, a very good tech team
1:22:51to actually do the hard work,
1:22:52and I don't wanna describe the tech,
1:22:53but the hard work of actually making a new UI
1:22:56and all these very technical things under the covers,
1:22:58'cause they didn't change all the underlying stuff,
1:23:00but they have to put a new UI on all of it,
1:23:01that's a huge task.
1:23:03They accomplished that task,
1:23:04but the UI they put on top looks like an afterthought
1:23:07and it makes me angry.
1:23:08- Yeah, it looks bad, it feels bad,
1:23:12it does not look or feel anything
1:23:15like anything else on the Mac, nor should it.
1:23:18Like nothing else on the Mac should look like that.
1:23:21- Don't copy this in your app.
1:23:23- Yeah, please don't.
1:23:23And I hope this isn't the direction Apple's bringing
1:23:25their other apps, but that's an interesting question.
1:23:30All the Apple apps on the platform,
1:23:32their preferences windows look like the old system
1:23:37preferences, are they going to go through all of their apps
1:23:39and redo all their preferences to look like system settings
1:23:42now, I hope not, but it's also weird that they're different
1:23:45now, like it just, Apple is so rapidly losing the ability
1:23:52to make Mac software.
1:23:55And it's very concerning for the company
1:23:57that makes the most and the most important Mac software.
1:24:00Like, it's been a long time since they made a great Mac app,
1:24:02let's be honest, but I mean, this is another level
1:24:06of willfully throwing away the things that make a Mac good.
1:24:11And it's not to say that you can never update those things
1:24:14and change those things with changing times.
1:24:16You can and you should and they should and they have.
1:24:19And not all the changes have been good,
1:24:21but at least they have moved the Mac forward over time.
1:24:24But I don't know how anybody can look at this
1:24:27and say this is good.
1:24:29The only defenses I've ever heard about it
1:24:32were people who play What Aboutism
1:24:34by pointing out flaws in the old System Preferences app,
1:24:37which again, those are valid.
1:24:39There are tons of flaws in the old System Preferences app
1:24:42that could be made better and should be made better.
1:24:44- Yeah, and it could use an overhaul.
1:24:45It needed an overhaul.
1:24:46I'm not saying it's not an overhaul.
1:24:47It absolutely needs to be overhauled.
1:24:48And all of the things that,
1:24:50any complaint that you hear is like,
1:24:51oh, I can't find anything.
1:24:52Like there's always gonna be unfamiliarity
1:24:54when you have an overhaul,
1:24:54but the old one needed an overhaul.
1:24:56It's just not this overhaul.
1:24:58It needed a better overhaul.
1:24:59An overhaul that was better thought out.
1:25:02In some ways, this constrained itself too much
1:25:06to the old style, in particular, the fixed size window.
1:25:09And just like that, that seems to dictate the whole,
1:25:11like I can picture in my head the designer-y,
1:25:14dribble-style mock-up of like,
1:25:16what a real modern system preferences would be like.
1:25:18Jason Snell talked about it in a few of his articles.
1:25:20we'll put links in the show notes of like,
1:25:22imagine if this had been like,
1:25:24even if it had just been as good as a decent iPad port
1:25:27of a phone app, where it becomes a three column view,
1:25:29or you have an actual hierarchy
1:25:30where things are organized better,
1:25:32where when you get to the leaf nodes,
1:25:33they look reasonably well thought out
1:25:35instead of the weirdest jumble of controls
1:25:37you've ever seen in your entire life.
1:25:39I wish I should find the ones with the little I
1:25:41and the like the I and the options button,
1:25:43all the other things like,
1:25:44you look at this and as a Mac user,
1:25:46as a web user, as an iOS user,
1:25:48you have no idea what to control where it might lead to.
1:25:51Just cause it to crash by clicking around in it.
1:25:54There are some bugs too, but whatever.
1:25:55It's baffling to me that the things
1:25:59that are in the detail pane,
1:26:01that they think that is a Mac UI.
1:26:03I don't know what it is, it's not even a good webpage.
1:26:05- Yeah, you're right.
1:26:07I guess comparing it to a webpage earlier,
1:26:10and what I was really saying was it's like those old
1:26:12iOS themes of WordPress, which were terrible,
1:26:16but it's like the Mac UI version of that.
1:26:19Like it's trying to look like a Mac UI, sort of,
1:26:23and also trying to look like an iPad UI, sort of,
1:26:26and it's doing a terrible job at both of those things,
1:26:30and it ends up looking and feeling and working horribly.
1:26:35And it feels like, again, it's like those
1:26:38whole WordPress themes, it feels like,
1:26:41or like, you ever have some crappy Linux
1:26:45window manager thing that tries to theme itself
1:26:47to look like a Mac, it's not even that good.
1:26:50It's worse than those.
1:26:52It is a terrible imitation UI.
1:26:56Samsung makes better UIs now than that.
1:26:59And Samsung rips off Apple's style better than that.
1:27:03Why, like how,
1:27:04how this shipped, who approved this?
1:27:10Like how, okay, have a project in the company
1:27:14to redo the system preferences app.
1:27:16Yeah, it was getting old.
1:27:17But who approved this design direction?
1:27:21And who made the call, presumably maybe this spring
1:27:25sometime, to say, we're gonna get this shipped
1:27:27in this release?
1:27:28Because neither of those things should have happened.
1:27:31This design should never have gotten past initial review,
1:27:35and whoever's above that, maybe it's Federighi,
1:27:38should never have said, this is ready to ship
1:27:40in this version of the OS.
1:27:42Neither of those, like those are two massive failures
1:27:45at probably pretty high levels in the company.
1:27:49Again, this keeps happening.
1:27:51Like I, oh, what's going on over there?
1:27:54Like, you know, I try to cut them slack
1:27:57and I try to make sure we always celebrate
1:28:00all the good stuff that's going out of the company
1:28:02because there's a lot of it.
1:28:03But man, the same problems keep happening.
1:28:06Like what's going on and is anything,
1:28:09are they learning?
1:28:11Are they trying to get better?
1:28:12Do they even think it's a problem?
1:28:14I don't know the answer to any of those is yes.
1:28:17- I just put the little screenshot of my little friend
1:28:20that I was describing in our Slack channel
1:28:23if you wanna take a look at it.
1:28:24For those at home, if you wanna take a look at it,
1:28:26if you have Ventura, go to the network thing.
1:28:29It's the third item down on the sidebar.
1:28:32And then scroll to the bottom
1:28:33and you get this friendly fellow
1:28:34just peeking at you over there.
1:28:36- It's a three dot drop down?
1:28:38What?
1:28:40- The iOS and the web convention is three dots
1:28:43means like a menu with more stuff.
1:28:45And that kind of came from the phone
1:28:46where there's not a lot of room on the phone.
1:28:47And if you want to indicate
1:28:48like there was the hamburger thing with three lines
1:28:51and variations on that to say there's a menu
1:28:52but also the three dots.
1:28:53It's a convention we're familiar with from the phones
1:28:55where space is constrained.
1:28:56I am on a 6K display
1:28:59and this window can't get any bigger than it is.
1:29:01And at the very bottom, there is three dots
1:29:03and also a downward facing Chevron.
1:29:05And that is not a Mac control.
1:29:07I don't know what the thing is.
1:29:09- It is now.
1:29:10- Can you guess what's under that without clicking on it?
1:29:12It's the network thing, and you see network,
1:29:14and it shows, it's just a linear list of items
1:29:16that are making very poor use of the space,
1:29:18each of which has a chevron on the right,
1:29:19because of course there's multiple layers of hierarchy
1:29:21in this window that can't get any wider, right?
1:29:24With no animations between them.
1:29:26And then at the very, very bottom,
1:29:27next to the help question mark,
1:29:28there is three buttons and a chevron.
1:29:31A lot of things in this, like,
1:29:32you're helped by knowledge of the old system preferences,
1:29:35because basically, look, if you knew something
1:29:37exists in the old system preferences,
1:29:39and you're pretty sure it still exists here,
1:29:40but you don't see it where you expect,
1:29:42try clicking all the secret buttons.
1:29:44Click all the little eyes, click all the little chevrons,
1:29:46and maybe at the very bottom there's a thing lurking
1:29:48that has three dots and a downward facing arrow.
1:29:50Or maybe there's an advanced button,
1:29:53or maybe there's an option button.
1:29:55Or maybe there's all three of those in a single pane.
1:29:57It's not good.
1:29:58- Cool.
1:30:00Yeah, so system preferences, it's bad.
1:30:02- System settings, not preferences.
1:30:04- Whatever, often costs. - It's really annoying
1:30:05because as we've been complaining in Slack
1:30:07and everything about this,
1:30:08used to writing sys prefs.
1:30:09It's the shorter way, you know, it's S-Y-S space P-R-E-F-S.
1:30:13But I can't say sys sets.
1:30:14- P-R-E-F-S.
1:30:15- Sys settings, and it's like, when I complained about it,
1:30:18it makes me type more, just yeah, I'm not enjoying it.
1:30:21By the way, that's one of the most important updates
1:30:23and when you're updating a Mac app for Ventura,
1:30:25you gotta change all your preferences menu items
1:30:27to say settings, which I did.
1:30:29They say preferences when you run it
1:30:32on pre-Ventura systems, which is another, you know,
1:30:34you have to be careful to do that.
1:30:35And so you have to change all your help text.
1:30:37It's great writing the help text that says,
1:30:39go to the menu and select settings or preferences,
1:30:41and you have to explain which OSes those apply to.
1:30:42Every time you mention in help text
1:30:44what menu item people have to go to,
1:30:46you gotta do this little dance.
1:30:47Lots of fun.
1:30:49- Cool.
1:30:49You know what else is lots of fun?
1:30:51Watching the spectacular ways in which Stage Manager breaks
1:30:54on both iPad and on macOS.
1:30:56Again, did anyone, why didn't anyone say that this is a mess?
1:31:01Because holy frickin' crap, this is a mess.
1:31:05I feel like it's way more stable on Mac OS.
1:31:09I think it's more interesting and useful for me anyway
1:31:13on iPad OS, but it is unusable on iPad OS.
1:31:17It is so, so bad.
1:31:20It's so bad on iPad.
1:31:22And on the Mac, I don't care for it, but it mostly works.
1:31:27I don't, I don't know.
1:31:30It's like, so I think part of the problem is
1:31:32I'm a devout Spaces user,
1:31:33as we've talked about a few times recently.
1:31:35I really like using spaces.
1:31:36I think spaces are great.
1:31:38I like having different spaces.
1:31:40And even in some cases,
1:31:42like having one or two full screen apps in a space.
1:31:45I am a heavy, heavy spaces user.
1:31:47This is why I couldn't ever get away
1:31:50from the Magic Mouse or now the Magic Trackpad
1:31:52because I need those gestures,
1:31:53two finger swipe and the Magic Mouse,
1:31:55three fingers on the trackpad,
1:31:57in order to go between spaces.
1:31:58It's just part of how I work.
1:32:01I feel like Stage Manager is like a crappy version of Spaces, and that's probably unfair
1:32:07because maybe it's just Spaces for a different purpose, but from my point of view, it's like
1:32:12a crappy version of Spaces.
1:32:14On the Mac, I tend to have one space on the Ultrafine, so on my accessory monitor, I have
1:32:21one space that's maybe two-thirds Slack and one-third Messages, and Tiled, so they're
1:32:26both, you know, they're not literally full screen, but you know, they're in full screen
1:32:29mode, tiled two thirds and one third. And when I have stage manager turned on, when
1:32:34I would swipe to that space, messages, the first party app would be black for a beat,
1:32:42and then the UI would show up. Swipe away, come back, black, oh there it is. Which was
1:32:47not annoying at all. And then the multi-monitor support in general on Mac OS seemed really
1:32:53really wonky. I don't know, it didn't seem right to me. Things that were happening on
1:32:58The left hand monitor would occasionally affect the right hand monitor, but then occasionally
1:33:02they wouldn't.
1:33:03It was super weird.
1:33:04On iPadOS, I forget specifically what I was doing, but I think I was trying to share something
1:33:10in a share sheet and then send it as a text message or an iMessage and type an aim into
1:33:17that iMessage and the keyboard was not within the window of the message window or something
1:33:23like that.
1:33:24The onscreen keyboard was totally out of whack.
1:33:27There's a bunch of on-screen keyboard bugs in iPad OS 16.1.
1:33:32I thought it was just the betas, but now I'm pretty sure I'm on the release.
1:33:35I removed the beta profile and it says there's no new updates or whatever.
1:33:40Lots of people have been reporting situations where they're on their iPad and they're supposed
1:33:43to be able to use the keyboard to enter text in the thing and it doesn't work.
1:33:47Some people were saying they would see a flash or it would appear and disappear.
1:33:51My bug is you put the insertion point in a text field and no keyboard appears in any
1:33:56Orientation just none. There's no way out of it
1:33:59The only way out of it is to you, you know, leave the app or restart the iPad and that's not great
1:34:03That's like it's like trying to use your Mac and all of a sudden someone steals your keyboard
1:34:06I won't give you another one because you know
1:34:08I suppose I could try to find a Bluetooth keyboard to connect to my iPad to enter text
1:34:12But if I'm in the middle of doing something and the keyboard literally won't come up. That's a pretty frustrating bug in a shipping OS
1:34:16So stage manager all the rumors were true. It's a mess system settings all the rumors were true
1:34:25It's a mess. I haven't yet tried
1:34:27the shared photos library thing. I am very keen to try it
1:34:35but I haven't gotten around to updating Aaron's stuff yet
1:34:38and that's the whole purpose of this is for Aaron to finally get to see
1:34:42all of the family's photos in the same way you John would finally get to see all the family's photos because I and Tina
1:34:48or Tina and myself are the keepers of the official family photo albums or photo libraries.
1:34:53So have you been playing with the shared library stuff yet? I
1:34:56certainly have so first of all, they didn't mention this but on
1:35:00Ventura like the word on the street is that it seems pretty good for an initial release and as
1:35:06predicted on a past show
1:35:07I knew I would not be able to like wait the appropriate amount of time to
1:35:12install this OS and start using because I want I've been waited for whatever is a decade and you know, 12 years whatever for the
1:35:18shared library feature
1:35:20So I installed Ventura on every single Mac in the house on day one and I updated all the phones 16.1
1:35:27I just went all in I did massive amounts of backups first
1:35:30But I went all in because I just I want this feature and to get the benefit of this feature
1:35:35you kind of have to update everybody because it's I didn't want to like mix and match and you know, so
1:35:39My experience so far having it's Wednesday. I installed I've been her and everything on Monday
1:35:45Everything's been fine in terms of OS stability compatibility or whatever all the complaints about system settings are like it's annoying but like
1:35:52Things aren't crashing didn't break a bunch of my software. It's been very stable for me for whatever that's worth
1:35:58Three days experience on like five different max
1:36:00I give it a thumbs up and I did this because I wanted to use the photo shared library
1:36:06and
1:36:07I I tried to be cautious about it like
1:36:11So the first thing is, now that it's really real installed,
1:36:14like the first time I ever used my real Apple IDs
1:36:15and this, whatever, my first decision I had to make was,
1:36:19who will create the shared library?
1:36:22Will it be my wife who owns the current real family library,
1:36:26or would it be me?
1:36:27I'm not sure what the correct move to do there is,
1:36:30but it's kind of important 'cause it's difficult
1:36:32to change your mind on that in the future.
1:36:35Either way, we're on like an iCloud family plan,
1:36:37we all share like the family,
1:36:39it's not like a storage thing,
1:36:40We don't have individual store.
1:36:41I think it's like all big one family, whatever,
1:36:43it's the Apple one giant pool of storage thing.
1:36:45So that's fine.
1:36:47I kind of regret having my wife's Apple ID
1:36:52on the family library,
1:36:54'cause that means as we discussed in the past episodes,
1:36:57I still have to log in as her on my Mac to do stuff
1:37:00because shared photo library does not share albums
1:37:03or book projects or slideshows
1:37:05or any of the other stuff that I work on.
1:37:06So I have to be in her library to mess with those things
1:37:09'cause I've had years worth of those things in there
1:37:10and I make new ones in there.
1:37:12So it's not like I can be logged into myself like,
1:37:15well, maybe if I own the shared library
1:37:18for whatever that's worth,
1:37:19whatever quote unquote owning the shared library even means,
1:37:23maybe I can slowly transition the library to me.
1:37:25But in the end I wimped out and I said,
1:37:27she's gonna own the shared library.
1:37:28Again, I'm not sure what owning means.
1:37:30Something I read probably on Six Colors from Snell
1:37:33said basically like the storage for photos
1:37:36in a shared library, like the iCloud storage,
1:37:38is attributed to whoever created the shared library.
1:37:42And again, not that it matters storage-wise,
1:37:44but I'll just have her own itself.
1:37:46I created the shared library from her account.
1:37:49And then as I was gonna start cautiously
1:37:52playing with this feature, now that everybody's updated,
1:37:54and it occurred to me something
1:37:56I hadn't really thought about before.
1:37:58So my photo library is pushing a terabyte these days.
1:38:02It used to be on a 500 gig drive, it outgrew that,
1:38:04now it's pushing a terabyte.
1:38:06And both I and my wife's Mac,
1:38:08we have four terabyte boot drives.
1:38:10And our four terabyte boot drives pretty much hold
1:38:14all of our stuff plus a complete copy of our photo library,
1:38:18right, and then with some room to spare, right?
1:38:20And I figured, okay, if I go through this in my head
1:38:24and I make this shared photo library
1:38:26and I start moving essentially all of the photos
1:38:30from my wife's photo library into the shared library,
1:38:33'cause that's the family thing,
1:38:36and I have photos set to download originals,
1:38:40that will mean that on my Mac,
1:38:44where currently if I log in as my wife,
1:38:45she's got the full photo library
1:38:47with download original set,
1:38:49I'll have a second copy of every single one of those photos
1:38:54in my photo library.
1:38:55Because even though they're the same photos
1:38:57on the cloud side, as far as my Mac is concerned,
1:39:00there are two users, me and my wife,
1:39:02who both have iCloud photo library turned on,
1:39:04who both have the option check to download originals.
1:39:07And it fits when it's one terabyte of photos
1:39:09in my wife's account.
1:39:10But when I, because on my Mac,
1:39:12I have a download originals from my photo library too.
1:39:15I think that counts for the shared photo library as well.
1:39:18So I'm like, I can't actually fit two copies
1:39:21of my photo library on my Mac, on my boot drive.
1:39:26So I wasn't sure what to do about that,
1:39:28but I figured, well, I mean,
1:39:30my photo library is not really used,
1:39:32like the only thing that's in my photo library
1:39:34is not in the family library, or things
1:39:36like when I take pictures of receipts or random,
1:39:39you know, things that I'm not going to keep, right?
1:39:42And there's a lot of those, but pretty much everything else
1:39:45there's a copy of in the big library.
1:39:46So I decided the only way I could deal with this
1:39:48is to change the option in photos on my account
1:39:52to be optimized storage instead of download originals.
1:39:56And I was hoping that would allow me not
1:39:57to blow through my storage.
1:39:59So that's what I did.
1:40:00And then I started moving photos into it.
1:40:02So I went to her computer, you know,
1:40:03because I figured why not, instead of pushing back and forth
1:40:05in accounts on my computer, I went to her computer
1:40:07and I dragged, you know, the recent five or 10 photos
1:40:11into the shared library.
1:40:13And then I looked over at my computer
1:40:14and I saw them appear, I'm like, cool.
1:40:17Then I selected a hundred of them.
1:40:19And I said, you know, move to shared photo library.
1:40:22I got a message about like,
1:40:23some of these photos haven't been saved.
1:40:25They have to be saved first
1:40:26before you can move into the shared photo library.
1:40:27I'm like, what?
1:40:28Saved?
1:40:30They're saving in the photos app on the Mac?
1:40:31What does that mean?
1:40:32The dialogue had a button that said save.
1:40:34I'm like, I guess save?
1:40:36I had never seen that before.
1:40:37I'm testing with the betas.
1:40:39I hit save.
1:40:40- Does it mean download?
1:40:41- Her library has always been set to download originals.
1:40:45It has never not been set to that.
1:40:46Everything is downloaded.
1:40:48I don't know what, you know, anyway.
1:40:50So I hit save and then, you know,
1:40:52so the magic of photos on the Mac is,
1:40:55when you do anything,
1:40:56if there is any kind of product or syndication,
1:41:00if you're lucky, there will be one.
1:41:02And if it is there, it is cleverly hidden
1:41:05at the bottom of a large scrolling region.
1:41:08So the sort of detail view on photos is usually scrollable.
1:41:11If you scroll to the very, very bottom of that thing,
1:41:14if you're lucky, you will see some
1:41:15completely inaccurate progress description there, right?
1:41:18So it's the most well-hidden progress indication,
1:41:21and it lies, and it doesn't make any sense.
1:41:22And I spend a lot of time with FSU usage
1:41:25and OSOF trying to figure out,
1:41:26is anything literally doing anything?
1:41:28- Oh my gosh.
1:41:29I wanna see file system, system calls flying by
1:41:33and the photo library de-processed
1:41:35to let me know something is happening
1:41:37because that progress bar has not moved in hours.
1:41:38Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.
1:41:40So eventually it let me put like 100 photos in there.
1:41:43Then I went over and looked at my Mac
1:41:44and I saw the 100 photos appear.
1:41:45I'm like, hmm, all right.
1:41:46And so over the course of a few days,
1:41:48I got bolder and bolder and started selecting larger
1:41:52and larger collections of photos from her library.
1:41:56I had her set to show me just her personal library.
1:41:58I would select photos and I would either right click
1:42:00or click on the image menu.
1:42:02And from the other right click context menu
1:42:04or the image menu in Mac photos,
1:42:06I would say move end photos to shared photo library, right?
1:42:10As I kept doing that, I eventually got to the point
1:42:14where I was selecting thousands of photos.
1:42:16And once you select thousands of photos,
1:42:19whether you right click or you click the image menu
1:42:22in the menu bar, you get a beach ball.
1:42:24You just gotta power through that beach ball.
1:42:27You just have to let it spin for a little while
1:42:29because what it's basically doing is figuring out,
1:42:32I guess, how many photos you've selected
1:42:34and maybe preflighting them to say there's unsaved changes.
1:42:39Honestly, I don't know what it's doing, but it blocks.
1:42:42It blocks hard, it beach balls.
1:42:44Does not mean that it's broken, but you do have to wait.
1:42:48And then after you wait, be careful that you don't
1:42:51mouse off of that menu accidentally
1:42:53because you gotta do the beach ball all over again
1:42:55once that thing disappears.
1:42:56- Oh no.
1:42:57- It doesn't re-display, yeah.
1:43:00And so I kept doing it in batches,
1:43:01and what you'll see when I do it in batches is
1:43:04it will show the hidden progress bar,
1:43:06the progress at the bottom,
1:43:07kind of like fruit on the bottom yogurt from Dannon.
1:43:09The progress at the bottom,
1:43:11you scroll all the way down there,
1:43:12and what it'll say is eventually,
1:43:14like five or 10 seconds after you perform the command,
1:43:18you'll see a thing that says,
1:43:20moving 10 photos to shared library,
1:43:24moving 20 photos to shared library,
1:43:25Moving 30, it's a number that counts up.
1:43:28It counts up and then eventually it starts counting down.
1:43:31So it's going to count up to a number
1:43:32that is close to the number of photos you selected
1:43:34and then it will count down.
1:43:35The interesting thing is when you do the move command
1:43:37from the menu, about three seconds later,
1:43:40all the pictures that you told to move
1:43:42disappear from your view.
1:43:44- Oh, cool.
1:43:45- They all disappear.
1:43:46You said to move them, right?
1:43:48I think they instantly appear in the shared view,
1:43:51but if you're just looking at the three views you have,
1:43:55is show me my personal library,
1:43:56show me my shared library, show me both.
1:43:58And I'm just in personal library
1:43:59'cause I'm winnowing down the personal library
1:44:02and it will tell you how many photos
1:44:03are in your personal library.
1:44:04I'm trying to drain that pool, right?
1:44:06So they disappear immediately.
1:44:07After they disappear, at the bottom will be a progress thing
1:44:10that counts up and then counts back down.
1:44:13It's pretty fast.
1:44:15The number tends to go and I think it increments
1:44:17with like 100 or so every few seconds.
1:44:20So it's like just go someplace else,
1:44:21do something and come back.
1:44:23While I was doing this, I had photos running on my Mac
1:44:25and I would see how long does it take
1:44:27between the time they disappear there
1:44:28and the time they appear on my computer
1:44:29and that was pretty fast.
1:44:30It was actually shockingly fast.
1:44:32Maybe it was just the thumbnails or whatever,
1:44:33but I had it set to download original.
1:44:34So I did that over the course of the past few days.
1:44:39If you look in the Slack channel,
1:44:40you'll see my end result here,
1:44:43the graphic that I just put in.
1:44:44This is the message that appears
1:44:45on my wife's photos application now
1:44:48when you launch it and switch to personal library.
1:44:52Personal library is empty. There are no photos or videos in your personal library
1:44:56From the little person button in the toolbar change your library view to the shared library to move photos and videos to the personal library
1:45:03I drained a hundred and fifty five thousand photos and videos out of her personal library and put them into the shared library
1:45:10And the reason I did this is because as I thought about it
1:45:14Like I was I did it cautiously in small batches
1:45:17The biggest batch I did was 30,000 photos.
1:45:19And honestly, I didn't see much of a difference
1:45:21between using 30,000 and 10,000.
1:45:23I didn't have the guts to do any more than that.
1:45:24I tried to do 50,000 at one point
1:45:26and told me they were unsaved ones,
1:45:27and I backed away and went for smaller batches.
1:45:31The reason I went all in on this
1:45:32is because I have about 17 complete backups
1:45:35of this photo library before Ventura
1:45:37that are all fresh and sitting in drawers and on drives
1:45:40and in synologies in various places.
1:45:41And if this hoses my library,
1:45:44I want to be able to restore from one of those
1:45:47and not lose anything.
1:45:48So I need to go all in fast.
1:45:49I need to fail fast.
1:45:50'Cause I don't wanna,
1:45:51if I did it slowly over the course of months
1:45:53and slowly move stuff in there,
1:45:54what I did wanna find out was three months from now,
1:45:56oh, the library's completely hosed and corrupted,
1:45:58and you have to restore it from a backup
1:46:00that's like three months old, right?
1:46:01Or you've overwritten that backup
1:46:03with the corrupt venture or backup, you know,
1:46:04in some cases.
1:46:06So I'm all in.
1:46:08I, in my library with the both view,
1:46:10it says 185,000 photos and videos.
1:46:13- That's awesome. - And I have to say
1:46:14that despite the beach balling and everything,
1:46:18shockingly fast if you count like the amount of minutes
1:46:21it took to move 155,000 things.
1:46:23Obviously it's not moving the data.
1:46:25I know that because for one thing,
1:46:27I have Google Drive running on my wife's computer
1:46:29that is uploading images or whatever.
1:46:31Google Drive didn't make a peep during this.
1:46:33It did not see any new, any action going on
1:46:36in the photo library in terms of in the file system.
1:46:39So this process of moving them as you would expect
1:46:41is probably just doing a series of update statements
1:46:44on a SQLite database somewhere, right?
1:46:46It is not actually moving any photos.
1:46:48It's probably not moving them in the cloud
1:46:49on their cloud storage,
1:46:52and it doesn't seem like it's moving them
1:46:53on my local disk either.
1:46:54If it was touching those photos at all in any way,
1:46:58this would have taken forever.
1:46:59But I moved the entire library in like probably 24 hours-ish
1:47:04like casually doing batches of five, 10,
1:47:07and eventually 20,000,
1:47:08and they appeared on my computer in my library so fast
1:47:12it was shocking.
1:47:13even know how it's doing it.
1:47:14I don't know if it's downloaded them all yet.
1:47:16They appear on my phone as well.
1:47:17So I'm gonna give this feature,
1:47:20again despite the beach balls and the terrible progress,
1:47:22all of which are pre-existing conditions,
1:47:24as they say in the insurance business,
1:47:26I'm gonna give this a thumbs up.
1:47:27I think it actually works.
1:47:28It didn't hose my libraries.
1:47:29I never got any errors.
1:47:31There were various points where I had to be very patient,
1:47:33Casey, and wait much more than five seconds
1:47:36or five minutes to see anything.
1:47:38But sometimes it says like saving or whatever
1:47:40and it would say like uploading 20 photos to iCloud.
1:47:42It's like, what are you uploading to iCloud?
1:47:44Just let it be like that.
1:47:46If you come back 15 minutes later
1:47:47and it still says uploading 20 photos to iCloud,
1:47:50just let it sit.
1:47:51Come back in a half an hour, that message will be gone
1:47:53and it will say moving 10,957 photos to shared library.
1:47:57It will eventually, hopefully get the job done.
1:48:00I have to say, I was surprised at how fast it was.
1:48:02All the testing that I had done with Ventura
1:48:03was with toy libraries with like 100 or so photos in it
1:48:06with fake Apple IDs.
1:48:08This is my real photo library with my real stuff in it
1:48:11and it went pretty fast.
1:48:12And then one of the weird sort of side effects
1:48:16of having this situation is,
1:48:17if I switch my wife's view to her personal library,
1:48:21it has no photos in it.
1:48:22And because of the way the Photos app works,
1:48:24like all the albums in the sidebar,
1:48:27they show you a little thumbnail.
1:48:29I don't know, like I say,
1:48:30you have an album with 50 pictures in it.
1:48:32It picks one of the pictures from the album
1:48:33and makes that the thumbnail.
1:48:34I don't know why it does that.
1:48:35They're so small, you can't see them anyway, right?
1:48:37But when you switch to personal library
1:48:39and there's nothing in the personal library,
1:48:41all of those thumbnails disappear.
1:48:43And we're like, oh my God, did it erase all my albums?
1:48:46No, but when you're in personal library view,
1:48:47if you click on that album, there's nothing in it,
1:48:49because your view is my personal library only,
1:48:52and there's nothing in the personal library.
1:48:54So when you click on any of your albums,
1:48:55like, oh my God, my albums, they're all empty,
1:48:57there's nothing in them, it's all gone.
1:48:58You just switch to show either shared library or both,
1:49:01and they come back.
1:49:03And doing that, switching those modes, is very fast,
1:49:06but it also affects the sidebar,
1:49:09which I think is super weird.
1:49:11I know I switched to personal view,
1:49:13but the fact that it makes the whole sidebar flicker
1:49:15and change the icons, like,
1:49:16don't make me think all the photos are gone
1:49:18just because the right-hand side view is filtered.
1:49:22You can leave the thumbnails on, everything's fine.
1:49:24Like, it freaked me out in the beginning.
1:49:26I actually took screenshots of it.
1:49:27I'm like, oh, is it changing something?
1:49:28It's not changing anything, it's just your view of the system.
1:49:30So again, this is in my wife's library.
1:49:32The albums are not shared as part of the shared library,
1:49:34but when logged in as my wife,
1:49:36I'm just gonna keep it on the both of you, I suppose.
1:49:38Oh, and the final thing is you have the option of like,
1:49:41Should it suggest to you when you should add stuff?
1:49:43You know, if you add things, if you're with somebody else
1:49:46or if you're at your home, there's a bunch of these options.
1:49:48Surprisingly, one of the options is not,
1:49:51as far as I can tell, the option to say,
1:49:53"Hey, everything I take a picture of with my phone,
1:49:56"put it in the shared library."
1:49:57That is not one of the options.
1:49:58I don't think there's any way to do that,
1:49:59which is kind of disappointing
1:50:00'cause that would be a nice option to have.
1:50:02But either way, once I found out that wasn't an option,
1:50:04I said, "I'll just put it on manual."
1:50:05'Cause now, what I'll do instead of connecting my phone
1:50:09on my wife's computer using image capture
1:50:11to take things off of it
1:50:12because the photos application cannot handle
1:50:14how many photos are on my phone.
1:50:15I have to use image capture like Casey, like an animal.
1:50:18- Well, slow down, slow down.
1:50:20That's not what I do.
1:50:21I used to do that like a year or two ago.
1:50:23What I do now is I make a temporary bespoke photos library.
1:50:28You know, I do the like, what is it?
1:50:29Hold option and double click on the photos icon.
1:50:32Make a new library, do the import there
1:50:35and then immediately export to disk.
1:50:39And then I use image capture just for deletions purposes.
1:50:41Oh my God.
1:50:42The only reason I'm using image capture is because the photo has lost the ability
1:50:46to correctly show the photos on my phone for whatever reason.
1:50:49So use image capture to pull them.
1:50:50And the tricky part is knowing I have a smart folder that says like John's phone,
1:50:55uh, that lets me know what is the last photo I imported from my camera.
1:50:59Cause that lets me know which ones I have to pull now, right?
1:51:03Like based on the timestamp and everything, it's not to do any of that anymore.
1:51:06Now I just go look at my personal library,
1:51:08and if there's anything in my personal library
1:51:10that's not in the shared library,
1:51:11it's just in the personal library view,
1:51:13I just select the images that I want
1:51:14and I right click them and say move.
1:51:16And doing that for batches that are not 10,000
1:51:18or 30,000 photos is actually pretty fast.
1:51:20And so that will be my new workflow.
1:51:22I'll just manually move them over when I need to.
1:51:23Same thing with my wife's thing.
1:51:24She has an empty personal library.
1:51:26As she fills that up,
1:51:27it's real easy to go to personal library,
1:51:28select all, right click, move to shared photo library.
1:51:31Again, doing with sane numbers of photos, really fast.
1:51:35not, you know, it's hopefully not gonna be a problem.
1:51:38So that's my plan for the workflow.
1:51:40I don't have a solution to the deduping situation.
1:51:43Ideally, you'd be able to do what I used to do with iTunes,
1:51:47which was never recommended,
1:51:48but I did it for years and it was fun.
1:51:50I used to have my iTunes music library
1:51:52in users shared music, users/shared/music,
1:51:56'cause the user shared directory on macOS,
1:51:58people don't know, is a directory
1:52:00that comes with default permissions
1:52:01such that more than one user on the system
1:52:02can read from it, right?
1:52:04You have to mess with the permissions to actually make it read-writable by multiple people,
1:52:08but you can.
1:52:09You can use group permissions, blah, blah, blah.
1:52:11And I'd have my whole iTunes library there.
1:52:13So I could have multiple accounts pointing to the same iTunes library with only one copy
1:52:16of the music on the disk.
1:52:17This is back when my music collection was one of the bigger things on my disk, the good
1:52:19old days.
1:52:20Probably still true of Marco.
1:52:23But it would be nice if you could do that with photos, because if I wanted my photo
1:52:27library to not be optimized storage, but to be downloaded originals, I would have two
1:52:31copies of every single photo.
1:52:33and that would be two terabytes of photos instead of one,
1:52:35and that is not insignificant.
1:52:36I would love it to be able to tell photos,
1:52:38"Hey, you know how these photos are the same
1:52:40in the storage backend, like in the cloud?"
1:52:43You can make them the same iMac too,
1:52:45but the permissions model really does not lend itself
1:52:48a lot of that, and it would be additional complexity,
1:52:49and I kinda understand why they didn't do it,
1:52:51especially into version one.
1:52:52So I'm gonna be all off to my storage over here,
1:52:55and my wife's count, as always, will be download originals.
1:52:58- Thanks to our sponsors this week,
1:53:00Memberful, Collide, and Backblaze,
1:53:03and thanks to our members who support us directly.
1:53:05You can join at atp.fm/join,
1:53:08and don't forget if you join,
1:53:09you get a 15% off code for our ATP store right now,
1:53:12so don't forget all that,
1:53:14and do forget to cancel at the end of it.
1:53:16Thank you everybody for listening,
1:53:18and we will talk to you next week.
1:53:20(upbeat music)
1:53:23♪ Now the show is over ♪
1:53:25♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪
1:53:27♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
1:53:29♪ Accidental ♪
1:53:30♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪
1:53:32John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him
1:53:38'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental
1:53:43And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM
1:53:48And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them
1:53:53M A R C O A R M
1:54:02N T Marko R M N S I R
1:54:06A C U S A Syracuse
1:54:09It's accidental They didn't mean to
1:54:15Accidental Tech podcast so long
1:54:22- All right, we are not going to have the time
1:54:25to talk about all this ad-related kerfuffle
1:54:27in the App Store, which we will probably get to next week,
1:54:30but I did want to briefly talk about--
1:54:32- The good news, by the way, is that the ad thing
1:54:34is like on fire right now, and Apple's like issuing
1:54:38statements and pausing things and everything,
1:54:39so like, it's good that we're gonna save it for next week,
1:54:42because by the time next week comes,
1:54:43it will probably be pretty different,
1:54:45and until then, you know, we can just kinda
1:54:48watch the fire burn.
1:54:50- Yeah, by next week, Elon Musk will own Apple.
1:54:52Oh God. Can we not? Oh, we're never doing that. Anyway,
1:54:57uh, join a stern who, whose coverage I really, really tend to like,
1:55:01uh, did an interview with, uh, Federiki and Joswiak, uh,
1:55:06I guess in the last 48 ish hours. Um,
1:55:09and this was posted over at the wall street journal. Uh,
1:55:12and we'll put a link in the show notes.
1:55:14The video is something like 35 minutes. Uh,
1:55:16and other than being extremely quiet, I don't know if you guys noticed that,
1:55:20but the audio mix is very, very quiet,
1:55:22which was a little annoying.
1:55:23- I use voice boost.
1:55:24- Yeah, imagine that.
1:55:25No, I thought the interview was okay.
1:55:29I don't know, even though I really, really like
1:55:32Joanna Stern a lot, but I don't think she set herself up
1:55:35for success with some of the things she asked,
1:55:37because they could clearly be interpreted as,
1:55:41tell me about what you're gonna do in the future.
1:55:43Even if that's not what she meant,
1:55:45it could have been interpreted that way.
1:55:46And you know, if an Apple executive
1:55:48could interpret a question as,
1:55:50"Tell me what you're doing in the future."
1:55:51They're gonna clam up immediately,
1:55:53which is exactly what Jaws and Federiki did.
1:55:56Sometimes I felt like they dodged questions,
1:55:58actually, oftentimes I felt like they dodged questions
1:56:00that they really didn't need to dodge.
1:56:02Like at the end, I think it was the end,
1:56:05she said something like, "What do you wish,"
1:56:07I forget exactly what it was,
1:56:07"but like, what do you wish computers did that they don't?"
1:56:10And they were like, "Well, that's telling you
1:56:13about our future plans, me, me, me."
1:56:15And it was, I don't know, they were kind of being jerks,
1:56:17I thought. - I think they should have
1:56:17that one because there's no way they can give an honest answer to that and not reveal future
1:56:22Apple plans, which I think was the point of the question. I disagree. I think if you look 10, 20,
1:56:2730, 40 years out, you can talk about plenty of things that you might want a computer to do.
1:56:31That is not even a fart in the wind right now. When you're talking to big, big Apple people,
1:56:38part of it is the experience with these specific big, big Apple people to know what things they'll
1:56:45answer and what things they want and what things not to waste your time on.
1:56:48And that only comes from just seeing a million of these interviews, right?
1:56:52It's still difficult to know on the day.
1:56:54But the other thing is, talking to these people about anything, literally anything they say
1:56:59is going to end up in some click-bait-y headline.
1:57:01I feel for them.
1:57:02Just look at the headlines that came out of this story.
1:57:04It is basically impossible for them to, again, an honest answer about 50 years in the future,
1:57:11I wish my computer would do this fantastical thing that Apple really isn't actually working
1:57:15on it's not a glimmer in anyone's eye an apple but this is an idea and the stories the next day would
1:57:19be apple planning on you know holographic cube or like whatever the hell they talk about like
1:57:23there is no like there is no way to give an honest answer and not get destroyed when with the
1:57:29ridiculous headlights because they're apple so that's why they're so cagey and cranky because
1:57:34it's just you know it's kind of like they've just been burned so many times and i think if you look
1:57:39at what they did in this in this interview the the main complaint that i think you've had case
1:57:42and other people had is like,
1:57:43that they didn't seem to answer a lot of questions,
1:57:44they dodged stuff.
1:57:45And despite that, there are still ridiculous stories today
1:57:49that make huge logical leaps
1:57:51and mischaracterize what was said by the people.
1:57:53So it's a rough situation for everybody.
1:57:55It's a rough situation for the interviewer,
1:57:57and as the interviewee, it's hard to be a good interviewee
1:58:00when you know, no matter how little you say,
1:58:03it's gonna get misinterpreted.
1:58:06- I agree with all of that, but I don't know.
1:58:08I think if you look at the Gruber interviews,
1:58:12oftentimes with these same two men,
1:58:14I think John does a far better job of riding the line
1:58:18of what are they willing or perhaps even excited to answer,
1:58:22and what are they just gonna clam up and say, uh-uh.
1:58:24And I don't think Joanna Stern did
1:58:26a particularly good job with that.
1:58:27- Yeah, he's better at it because he has
1:58:28much more experience, and he knows Apple more,
1:58:31and has been on the beat for longer.
1:58:33Like, it's kind of not a fair comparison,
1:58:35but I think Joanna--
1:58:36- Well, I would also say that they have very different goals
1:58:39and very different audiences too.
1:58:40I mean, it's not like, you know,
1:58:42Joanna Stern wasn't doing an interview
1:58:44for Daring Fireball, readers and listeners.
1:58:45Like, she was doing it for her audience,
1:58:48which is extremely different over at The Wall Street Journal
1:58:51compared to our little nerd sphere here.
1:58:52And I think she has quite a lot of experience in this area,
1:58:56and I think she knew exactly what she was doing,
1:58:59but that's the kind of question
1:59:01that her audience wants her to ask.
1:59:04- Maybe.
1:59:04People think they want you to ask that,
1:59:06but when you see the non-answers that they give,
1:59:08it's like, was that a constructive use of time?
1:59:09Like, I think the audience that wants it
1:59:11is also not satisfied because they didn't get the answers.
1:59:13Lots of, you know, anytime you watch an interview,
1:59:15the easiest thing to do as an audience member,
1:59:17and I do it all the time, especially on subjects
1:59:19I know a lot about, like Apple, is say,
1:59:20here's the follow-up question I would have asked
1:59:22and why didn't you ask it, right?
1:59:24And there are many instances where that happened.
1:59:27Like, the one that rang out the strongest for me
1:59:29was when Avayga was asking Federighi
1:59:32about app tracking transparency
1:59:34and how you've hurt your competitors
1:59:36and now you're doing advertising and whatever.
1:59:39And Federi gave this long answer that was like,
1:59:42the reason we do all this privacy stuff,
1:59:45when my team gets together,
1:59:47it's the privacy team that is rolling this out.
1:59:50We're not doing this so we can make more service revenue.
1:59:54It's a technology team and we are focused on privacy
1:59:57for its own merits and we have been for years and years.
2:00:00This is not a new thing.
2:00:03in this specific project you're talking about,
2:00:05was run by, initiated by, and brought to completion
2:00:08by the privacy team that is interested in privacy
2:00:11for all the altruistic privacy reasons.
2:00:13So when I, Craig Federighi, read stories at Apple,
2:00:16the only reason Apple did to up-track in transparency
2:00:18is to screw Facebook in,
2:00:19so they can make the money on advertising.
2:00:20It's ridiculous, 'cause I know that's not true,
2:00:22'cause I'm in charge of the software org,
2:00:24and I know exactly how this feature came to be.
2:00:26And it sounds like a convincing answer.
2:00:28You can see his passion saying,
2:00:30I'm not twisting my mustache,
2:00:32and saying we're gonna be super evil
2:00:33and we're gonna go as ad revenue.
2:00:34This is driven by the privacy team
2:00:36and we care about privacy.
2:00:37I 100% believe that, right?
2:00:40The follow-up question is,
2:00:42you're the head of software though.
2:00:44Apple is a big company.
2:00:46There's a team that's responsible
2:00:48for running an ad business.
2:00:50They don't work for you,
2:00:51but they are in the same company.
2:00:53And when that part of the company looks at the big picture,
2:00:56they say, we're doing all this privacy stuff.
2:00:59You know what?
2:01:00gives us an advantage in advertising.
2:01:02You didn't do it to help the advertising people,
2:01:05but they're part of the same company,
2:01:06and they sure as heck know what the consequences
2:01:09are going to be of app tracking transparency,
2:01:12because it's their job to make money from ads.
2:01:14And they are also part of Apple.
2:01:17So when someone says Apple is rubbing their hands together
2:01:20at Facebook getting screwed,
2:01:21'cause now they can make more ad revenue,
2:01:23no, Craig Federighi and the privacy team,
2:01:25that's not your motivation,
2:01:26but there's a whole other part of the company
2:01:28whose job it is to make money from ads.
2:01:30And they know and understand
2:01:32and take advantage of all of this.
2:01:33So when Federighi gets indignant,
2:01:36he can get indignant for himself and say,
2:01:38"Don't blame me, Craig Federighi, for this
2:01:40"'cause I didn't do a nasty thing."
2:01:42But it sounds like he's defending Apple
2:01:43and it's like Apple writ large sure as heck knows
2:01:47how this is going to impact Facebook
2:01:49and is capitalizing on it.
2:01:51And you can't wash your hands of it departmentally
2:01:55and therefore say, you know,
2:01:57Again, the follow-up would be more concisely phrased
2:02:01than that, it was like, okay, that's you,
2:02:02but what about the advertising team?
2:02:03What would they say if they were here?
2:02:05And then you would have said, well, they're not here,
2:02:07I'm here, and I'm telling you what I think about it.
2:02:09Then I would say, well, Apple's bigger than just you.
2:02:11And then we move on to the next question,
2:02:12which is why interviews are hard.
2:02:13But anyway, it's very easy to second guess
2:02:16what people say and what follow-ups they do
2:02:18and don't provide, but that's just the nature
2:02:20of armchair quarterbacking.
2:02:21You're like, I wouldn't have thrown that pass,
2:02:23or I would have not done a running play in that scenario.
2:02:26it's easy to say while you sit on the couch eating your chips.
2:02:28That is true. But in, and I think I'm, um,
2:02:31I'm selling Joanna short here.
2:02:35I think her choices of questions were not stellar,
2:02:38but I still think that, uh,
2:02:40Federighi and Joswiak stonewalled in at times where I really don't think it was
2:02:45necessary. And that's just my opinion. But nevertheless,
2:02:48one of the few times that we actually got something interesting out of them was,
2:02:52uh, a discussion with regard to, you know,
2:02:55lightning versus USB-C and in so many words, why are you still bothering?
2:02:59Why are you still clinging to lightning? Why is this still a thing?
2:03:02And it was an interesting conversation that lasted, you know,
2:03:06a couple of minutes long, particularly JAWS doing most of the talking.
2:03:09And there were a couple of quotes that I wanted to call out from that.
2:03:12First of all, he said,
2:03:14the approach would have been better environmentally,
2:03:16like if we had stuck with lightning or if we can stick with lightning,
2:03:19and it would be better for our governments not to be so prescriptive,
2:03:22which I think both of those things are actually true.
2:03:25Even as someone who would like USB-C on his iPhone,
2:03:28I think it is probably environmentally better,
2:03:31potentially environmentally better,
2:03:32not to have a gazillion billions of lightning cables
2:03:35suddenly become obsolete.
2:03:37- But debatable because the environmental advantage
2:03:40of USB-C is the sharing of infrastructure
2:03:42between devices that are not Apple devices
2:03:44and all of the other devices in the world
2:03:46that are going to USB-C.
2:03:47So he has some point, but I really don't think
2:03:52of the environmental angle is why they have stuck
2:03:54with lightning cables. - Oh, certainly not.
2:03:55- No, I think that's an excuse, not the reason.
2:03:57I mean, 'cause the environmental argument,
2:04:00while there is some merit that like, okay, well,
2:04:03if they do change over to USB-C,
2:04:05a whole bunch of lightning cables over the next few years
2:04:07will go into the trash, that's true.
2:04:09However, first of all, a large number of them
2:04:11would have gone to the trash room
2:04:12at the same time period anyway,
2:04:13because they are, as Jon said earlier, wear items.
2:04:16But also, if we project outwards, like, okay,
2:04:19Well in the next X years, if we don't switch,
2:04:22that's just more and more and more lightning cables
2:04:25that are gonna keep being produced, keep being bought,
2:04:28keep being potentially lost or wasted or whatever.
2:04:31Whereas if we switch now, then yeah,
2:04:34it's temporarily painful, but over the long term,
2:04:38I think it's clearly better to reduce e-waste
2:04:40and better for the environment to not have
2:04:43these two ongoing standards go indefinitely into the future.
2:04:46It's way better and cleaner and more efficient
2:04:49and lots of different mechanisms to have one type of cable
2:04:52that you can use for everything,
2:04:54and ignoring USB-C's many asterisks on that,
2:04:58but there's one type of cable you can pretty much use
2:05:01for charging anything at least. (laughs)
2:05:04Although, you ever have one of those devices
2:05:06that it has a USB-C hole to accept power,
2:05:10but it doesn't support USB PD?
2:05:13And so, it's oftentimes like little cheap things,
2:05:16And so you have to use one of those like USB A to C cables
2:05:21and plug it into a USB A charger.
2:05:22But anyway, of course that exists, right?
2:05:26But anyway, the environmental angle here
2:05:28is a good talking point, but it doesn't hold up
2:05:32to much critical thought and scrutiny.
2:05:34And I think, again, they are correct.
2:05:36This is a large installed base,
2:05:39and those cables are gonna be thrown away in a few years,
2:05:43but that was gonna happen anyway for most of them,
2:05:46and also going forward, it's better to rip the bandaid off
2:05:51now, have that short-term pain now,
2:05:53because it will make a better future.
2:05:55- Yeah, I mean, the shared infrastructure argument,
2:05:57like, I think you'd have to do the math on that
2:05:59to figure out how long it would take to make up
2:06:00for the sudden burst of tractor lightning stuff.
2:06:03But I mean, to be fair to Joss,
2:06:05he didn't lean on that too much.
2:06:06He threw it in as the talking point,
2:06:08but it's not like he was using that as an excuse.
2:06:09I mean, he basically made the same arguments
2:06:11that we made when we've talked about this,
2:06:12which I still believe is like,
2:06:14having governments prescribe
2:06:15the specific technical solution is not something
2:06:17that has a good history of fostering innovation, let's say.
2:06:21And in this case, it's kind of Apple's own fault
2:06:24for coming to this because I still truly believe
2:06:27that Apple would eventually have either gone to USB-C
2:06:29or gone to no wires at all on their own,
2:06:33but the timeline they were doing it on
2:06:35was not fast enough for the rest of the world.
2:06:36And so it's, like so many things with Apple,
2:06:39they were stubborn and took a little bit too long
2:06:42and ended up triggering an even worse government action
2:06:44that I don't particularly agree with,
2:06:45for reasons we discussed on the last show,
2:06:47but in the end, the world will be a better place
2:06:49when Apple goes to USB-C and everything,
2:06:51and Apple, it's your own stupid fault for forcing it.
2:06:53So, JAWS gave the exact same arguments
2:06:55that I think we all gave about,
2:06:56it's not great for the government
2:06:57to dictate the technical specifics,
2:06:59and it's clear that Apple does not want
2:07:01to be told to do this,
2:07:03and I think one of the most common clickbait headlines
2:07:06in this is, you know, JAWS,
2:07:09JAWS says that Apple is going to USB-C,
2:07:12He confirmed the next iPhone will have USB-C.
2:07:14He didn't say that at all.
2:07:16- Nope.
2:07:18- You don't listen to Apple people.
2:07:19He said, "Of course we will have to comply."
2:07:21As we've discussed, there are many ways
2:07:23that you can comply with that law.
2:07:25First of all, it doesn't go into effect until 2024
2:07:27or whatever someone was saying in the chat room
2:07:28that it went through the final hurdle
2:07:30so it is really the law of the land.
2:07:32But as we discussed on a past show,
2:07:34with the timelines the way they are,
2:07:36it might be the 2024 iPhone that has these changes in it.
2:07:39And second of all, you can comply
2:07:41by just getting rid of lightning
2:07:42and not replacing it with anything, that's also compliant.
2:07:44So headlines that confidently declare
2:07:47that Apple has confirmed that the next iPhone
2:07:50will have USB-C, assumes facts not in evidence
2:07:54as they say in court, right?
2:07:56And I think it probably will have USB-C,
2:07:58like the timelines look like the iPhone 15-ish or whatever.
2:08:01Again, thumbs up, USB-C iPhones, we're all for it,
2:08:04it's good or whatever,
2:08:05but Apple doesn't like to be forced to do things.
2:08:07And I don't think either one of them gave up
2:08:10any information that you know didn't already exist like what are they gonna
2:08:13say Apple plans to break the law I mean you know that's a common approach in
2:08:18these days but that's not still not the move that Apple goes to so yeah they're
2:08:23gonna comply well but I also thought it was interesting Jaws his response which
2:08:28was in full or I'm sorry with the later on I think she was talking about or
2:08:33Joanna was asking well when and Jaws said the Europeans are dictating timing
2:08:38four European customers.
2:08:43I'm emphasizing this, not he, but there is a reading
2:08:48of what he said that yes, Europeans will get SIM trays
2:08:53and USBC, where Americans or other areas of the world
2:08:57will stick with lightning because tough noogies.
2:09:00I'm not saying that is what's gonna happen,
2:09:01but that is a way you could read this conversation.
2:09:04- There are many ways to comply that do not conform
2:09:08to the fantastical headline that next year's iPhone
2:09:10is gonna be USB-C for the entire world.
2:09:12- Exactly.
2:09:13I just thought that was fascinating.
2:09:15The rest of the talk was fine.
2:09:17- Yeah, I mean, for the record,
2:09:18I think something like that,
2:09:20they probably wouldn't do an EU version of the iPhone
2:09:25that had USB-C maybe, or as discussed in a previous episode,
2:09:30just somehow gets rid of or disables the Lightning port.
2:09:34(laughing)
2:09:35I don't think they would do that.
2:09:37Like I think they would, I think, you know,
2:09:40Jaws was reflecting the correct attitude
2:09:45for Apple's thought on this, which is very clearly like
2:09:49they really don't like being told what to do
2:09:51by a government with their products.
2:09:53Like they really don't like that,
2:09:55and the combination of Apple kind of spitefully,
2:10:00you know, responding to that kind of thing,
2:10:02and also Jaws' just personality,
2:10:04like his built in like attitude,
2:10:06which I think many people find quite a bit more off-putting
2:10:10than he would probably like or than Apple would probably
2:10:14like, but anyway, I think that's just JODs.
2:10:17And it's also just Apple.
2:10:19Their attitude towards this is basically screw you.
2:10:24The same way their attitude towards all the various
2:10:26app store regulations are going on in different countries
2:10:28and everything, they don't want to be told what to do
2:10:32and they're gonna be quite spiteful about it
2:10:35even if, the whole thing about cutting off your nose,
2:10:38spite your face, whatever, it's like when a kid
2:10:40gets mad at you and does something totally against
2:10:43their own self-interest just because they're mad at you.
2:10:46That's how Apple responds to being told what to do
2:10:51in ways they don't appreciate, right?
2:10:53- I mean, Apple's not being spiteful, though.
2:10:55They're grumbling about it,
2:10:56but they are going to do the thing.
2:10:58And I think, honestly, I think they'll do the simpler thing,
2:11:01which is just USB-C everywhere.
2:11:02- Probably.
2:11:03- If they were doing the spiteful thing,
2:11:05what they would do is make their phones,
2:11:06they would do the thing with like leave lightning port
2:11:08but put a sticker over it.
2:11:09Like make their phones awkward and worse for everybody
2:11:11and confusing for the whole world.
2:11:12Like that would be the spiteful one
2:11:13'cause that would hurt Apple, right?
2:11:14They would be cutting off their iPhone nose
2:11:17to spite their face, right?
2:11:17But they are annoyed about it.
2:11:19And speaking of attitude, Federighi had a,
2:11:22this is one of my favorite parts that Joanna read
2:11:26one of the emails that was part of one of the,
2:11:30probably the Epic case or whatever.
2:11:31And it was a Federighi email.
2:11:33It was the email thread where they were discussing
2:11:35if iMessage and Android made sense.
2:11:37And Federighi had said something to the effect that,
2:11:39he said, "I'm worried that if we put iMessage on Android,
2:11:44"all that's gonna do is remove one more barrier
2:11:47"to parents getting their kids cheap Android phones."
2:11:51Right?
2:11:52That essentially, like we have some amount
2:11:54of market lock-in with iMessage
2:11:56because if a family wants to be able to message each other
2:11:58with a uniform interface with blue bubbles everywhere,
2:12:00they gotta get their kids iPhones.
2:12:01If we put iMessage on Android,
2:12:03isn't that gonna knock that thing down?
2:12:05And Joanna asked him about that.
2:12:08And you could see like the,
2:12:11one of the rare times that you see
2:12:13the permeable barrier between public C-Fed
2:12:19and inside Apple C-Fed.
2:12:21If you look at the emails,
2:12:22inside Apple C-Fed and inside Apple other people,
2:12:24they say all the things that we say on these podcasts.
2:12:27They don't say it in public,
2:12:27but they say it in their internal emails,
2:12:29'cause they're not dumb.
2:12:30We all know the discussions you have about the pros and cons of iMessage and Android.
2:12:33What are they?
2:12:34We'll just say them out loud on a podcast because we don't work for Apple.
2:12:37But Apple executives never say it in public, but when they talk about it themselves, they
2:12:41do say it.
2:12:42So here's an obvious point made by executive inside, but because this is outside CFET and
2:12:45he is in a public interview, he didn't really address the substance of that thing.
2:12:51Like hey, here's an email that shows that you know that iMessage is a lock-in and that
2:12:55you're saying one of the cons for us
2:12:58putting iMessage on Android is that it'll reduce that lock-in.
2:13:01Instead, he just had a question that was like,
2:13:02oh, we didn't feel like Apple could do anything great
2:13:04in the Android space, basically saying that we were,
2:13:05we didn't think we could, we're in a position
2:13:08to be as big as WhatsApp, and if we can't do that,
2:13:10there's only really downsides.
2:13:11But he never really addressed this specific point
2:13:14of part of the reason Apple does what it does
2:13:17is because iMessage is a form of lock-in.
2:13:19Everybody knows that.
2:13:20It's an obvious thing.
2:13:20It's not like, oh, Apple admits.
2:13:22Like, everybody knows it's lock-in.
2:13:24It's obvious to anybody who knows anything about technology market, but still Apple executives with their friendly face on will not acknowledge
2:13:31The obvious truth that we all know because they know we know and I know they know and it's like it's you know
2:13:35It's the unspoken thing
2:13:37Joanna tried to make him speak it and he wouldn't he would just say
2:13:40We didn't feel like we could and he said it in a roundabout way
2:13:43We didn't feel like we could essentially become the dominant messaging platform in any market
2:13:47And so therefore that upside didn't exist and then there are all these downsides one of which you read
2:13:52He didn't even really say that so I give her kudos for
2:13:56Trying to get him to address that because most of the time she fed will be honest and give his real opinion
2:14:01But here you could totally see him cordoning off the part of his brain that he employs to do basic
2:14:06Strategic analysis of the competitive landscape inside Apple that part is not allowed out when he's doing a public interview for the Wall Street Journal
2:14:13It's worth it's probably worth half an hour of your time, but I wish I wish it was different
2:14:20But what are you gonna do?
2:14:21-I think Craig needs a haircut too.
2:14:23-Don't we all?
2:14:25[BEEPING]