0:00:00I'm gonna try to get through this recording.
0:00:02I'm sitting here in my old office,
0:00:05and it is very echoey, because I made a mistake
0:00:09when we were here cleaning out the house
0:00:11and filling the dumpster.
0:00:13I took too many objects out of my office,
0:00:16and now the acoustics in here are terrible.
0:00:19It sounds like a bathroom,
0:00:21because there's too much missing from the room.
0:00:24- Did I tell the story on the show?
0:00:26I don't recall if I brought this up on the show,
0:00:28but about a month or two, maybe two or three months ago,
0:00:31I was doing some sort of video conference,
0:00:33which is very rare for me,
0:00:34and is soon to be rare for Jon, or is rare for Jon now.
0:00:37But I was doing some sort of video conference
0:00:39where I needed to close the closet door.
0:00:43Now, the way I'm facing,
0:00:44I'm facing an exterior wall of the house,
0:00:46and behind me is a closet, a very small closet,
0:00:49that has some of those accordion-style doors on it.
0:00:52And I closed the doors early in the day
0:00:54for that video conference,
0:00:55And then that evening I recorded ATP.
0:00:59And the next day, Marco says to me, "What did you do?"
0:01:03I was like, "What?
0:01:04"What did you do?
0:01:05"What are you talking about?
0:01:06"Everything's the same.
0:01:06"No, you changed something."
0:01:07I went, "No, I didn't.
0:01:08"What did you take out of your room?"
0:01:10Marco, "What, do you have a camera?"
0:01:11"No, I didn't do anything."
0:01:13And we eventually--
0:01:14- Wait, didn't it say like you took out something soft
0:01:15from your room and you had to put it back?
0:01:16- Right, yeah, yeah, that's basically what you said.
0:01:18And eventually we concluded, oh, I had closed the closet door
0:01:23And so all the soft material that's in the closet,
0:01:26like coats and things like that,
0:01:28instead of it being soft material,
0:01:29it was very echoey hard material.
0:01:31And I don't think another human on the planet,
0:01:33except perhaps one of the people
0:01:35we're gonna talk about in follow-up,
0:01:36other than Marco and this person from follow-up,
0:01:38I don't know if any other human on the planet
0:01:39would have noticed, but I tell you what, Marco noticed.
0:01:41So apparently you've done it to yourself.
0:01:43Congratulations, you played yourself.
0:01:45- And the thing is, I've recorded shows in here for years,
0:01:48and I didn't, I mean, it's never been as good
0:01:50as the beach office, 'cause the beach office
0:01:52is a much smaller room and I've treated it pretty well.
0:01:55This room is sized to be like a bedroom
0:01:57and so it's significantly larger.
0:01:59I might be moving to a small bedroom upstairs
0:02:02instead soon.
0:02:03So reason number one, I'm trying to get through this,
0:02:06is the reverb that I'm gonna have to try to filter out
0:02:09with iZotope after the recording.
0:02:11Reason number two, one of the benefits of living
0:02:13at the beach is that I live on a very skinny island.
0:02:18It's very windy.
0:02:20And so in the springtime, whatever pollen
0:02:23might be created by the island is instantly blown
0:02:26right off of it.
0:02:27And so there actually isn't that much pollen in the air
0:02:29that actually sticks around and builds up
0:02:31and gets into my eyes and makes me miserable.
0:02:34Well, so that also means that my tolerance for pollen
0:02:37has gone down over the last two years.
0:02:39And so I've come back to Westchester for just a day
0:02:42to run some errands, and now I am filled with allergies.
0:02:47Additionally, the changing routine made me forget
0:02:50to take my allergy pill this morning.
0:02:51And so I had like the double whammy
0:02:54and I got away with it all day until about 15 minutes ago.
0:02:58And now my eyes are just itching like crazy.
0:03:00Oh God, I spent a lot of time outside today too.
0:03:04So I had a lot of like wind blowing around
0:03:06and blowing everything into my face.
0:03:08So that's fun.
0:03:10And then reason number three is that
0:03:12despite my best efforts,
0:03:14which included stopping at an Apple store earlier today,
0:03:17I am still looking at the goddamn LG Ultrafine 5K,
0:03:22which is slightly crooked, which I think,
0:03:24I can't even tell, I think it's slightly crooked.
0:03:26- Well, it's moving a lot, so it's hard to tell.
0:03:28- Yeah, it's wiggling constantly
0:03:29whenever I touch the desk, and now that I'm used to 6K,
0:03:31it looks like I'm using my computer through a porthole.
0:03:34Like it's-- - Oh, get off of it.
0:03:36You can come right off of it, good grief.
0:03:38- Oh my God. - I can allow the wiggly,
0:03:41I can allow you going to get a studio display,
0:03:43honestly, I'm still surprised you haven't gotten
0:03:44a second XDR, but--
0:03:46- Frankly, I thought about it.
0:03:48- You can come off of it on the postage stamp.
0:03:50- Honestly, maybe if they ever update the XDR,
0:03:52maybe I would get the second one then
0:03:54and move the older one to whichever place
0:03:56I was using the least.
0:03:58But that's, I mean, they're so expensive.
0:04:01- Can we actually drop a topic right here,
0:04:02which is going to fly completely in the face
0:04:05of everything Jon stands for?
0:04:06Hey, buddy.
0:04:07- You know, you could save this for seven minutes.
0:04:09- No, no, no, we might as well drop it now
0:04:11because it's relevant.
0:04:13I've been thinking a lot about my forthcoming studio display,
0:04:17which should be here in the next couple of weeks,
0:04:20which means since we're recording early,
0:04:22it might be here by the time we have our next recording.
0:04:24No promises, we'll see.
0:04:25But I've been thinking a lot about the studio display
0:04:28and how there's so many things
0:04:30that we were talking about before it existed
0:04:32that we wanted, like high refresh.
0:04:34The, what is it, mini LED?
0:04:36I always get the terminology wrong.
0:04:38- Yes, 'cause micro doesn't really exist yet.
0:04:40- It exists.
0:04:41- Well, but no one's using it really, right?
0:04:42- Not in computer displays.
0:04:43- So, the point is, there's a lot of stuff
0:04:46that it seems like low-hanging fruit,
0:04:49even though I don't think it actually is,
0:04:50but there's a lot of stuff that we wanted
0:04:52that we didn't get in the studio display.
0:04:53And I'm not complaining, mind you.
0:04:55I'm overjoyed to be getting this display,
0:04:58even with the current camera problems.
0:05:00Like, I'm sure they will get fixed.
0:05:01I'm overjoyed to be getting this display.
0:05:03Certainly Marco was about to insta-buy one earlier today,
0:05:07if at all possible.
0:05:08What I wonder from you guys is,
0:05:10Do you see an in-between display happening
0:05:15in, let's say, the next two years?
0:05:17Do you think that there will be a display
0:05:22that is beefier, more powerful, nicer,
0:05:25take your adjective, that is better than the studio display,
0:05:29but still not quite the bananas XDR?
0:05:32Do you think that there's space for that in Apple's lineup
0:05:35for, I don't know, maybe like $3,000 or $4,000
0:05:38or something like that?
0:05:39I mean, yes, there is space, but your first question was,
0:05:42will Apple actually do that?
0:05:43But the Apple approach, I don't necessarily think
0:05:46is to make sure that there's space for it.
0:05:48They would just replace this one with a better one.
0:05:50- And your question of, you said within two years,
0:05:53I'm gonna say definitely not within two years.
0:05:54- Well, historically speaking, Apple has been terrible
0:05:58about updating its monitors, but things change.
0:06:00So again, I guess the question, will Apple do this or should?
0:06:03They absolutely should, of course they should,
0:06:05but they just, I mean, just look at the history
0:06:07of their monitors.
0:06:08ever been in Apple monitor that like a year later
0:06:10was replaced with one that was better.
0:06:11The closest I think you can come to that is maybe
0:06:13the 22 inch Apple cinema display was replaced
0:06:15by the 23 inch Apple cinema display,
0:06:17which was a lot better in what seemed to me
0:06:19a fairly short amount of time, but everything else.
0:06:22I mean, even just the XDR, where is the new XDR?
0:06:25Didn't come out the year after the XDR was released,
0:06:26that's for sure.
0:06:27- Yeah, I think what we're likely to see here
0:06:30is exactly what John said, like when they are ready
0:06:33to offer those features at somewhere near this price point,
0:06:36they'll just replace this monitor with a new model
0:06:38that has them.
0:06:39- It will probably be a little bit more expensive,
0:06:41but not $3,000.
0:06:42- Yeah, well, I don't know how much of a market
0:06:45there would be for a 27-inch 5K Apple monitor
0:06:48with those features for three or four thousand dollars.
0:06:51- I think there's a market for it,
0:06:53because it would be for people who would buy the XDR,
0:06:56but it's too much money,
0:06:57but they need the features of the XDR.
0:06:58- But once you're at three or four thousand dollars,
0:06:59why wouldn't you go five or six thousand dollars
0:07:01for the XDR and get a much bigger monitor?
0:07:03- 'Cause it's twice as much.
0:07:04(laughs)
0:07:06You get two of them.
0:07:06- Yeah, I mean, it depends a lot on the,
0:07:08does the XDR, whenever the XDR is updated next,
0:07:11is it still $5,000 without a stand?
0:07:13- Yeah, or does it get even more expensive?
0:07:15- Or maybe they can bring it down to 4,000, who knows?
0:07:17- Or maybe it's 8K and it gets more expensive, we'll see.
0:07:19But the thing is, the features that we're talking about,
0:07:22this is another one of those reaching limits
0:07:23of human perception, the features that we're talking about
0:07:25eventually will be economical,
0:07:27whether it's with, eventually with OLED or with micro LED,
0:07:29eventually those features will just be par for the course.
0:07:32And once you have them,
0:07:33It's not as if you have to wait for 500 hertz, right?
0:07:36Like, it's, you know, there is a,
0:07:38that's the point of diminishing returns.
0:07:39And same thing with the HDR thing.
0:07:42Will there someday be a 5,000 nit monitor?
0:07:44Like, I really doubt that is something
0:07:46that any human would even really want, right?
0:07:48So I think you'll be able to fit all the features
0:07:51that we want into something like the Apple cinema,
0:07:55the Apple Studio display within a handful of years.
0:07:58And at that point, for a reasonable economic,
0:08:01you know, amount of money. At that point, this will just be the new Apple Studio display.
0:08:05But look at the cadence of Apple releasing better versions of its monitors. Their history
0:08:09is really bad here. So you had said, and this was off the cuff, off the top of your head,
0:08:15I dropped this on you spontaneously, so no shame. You had said that you thought the 22
0:08:20inch cinema display to 23 inch cinema display was a year or two. I said it was a, it reminded
0:08:25me it was a very short amount of time, relatively speaking. So how long was it? So August 31st,
0:08:30which actually is Aaron's birthday, of 1999,
0:08:32was the 22-inch cinema display,
0:08:35which has like a tripod-style stand,
0:08:38or just making sure we're talking about the same thing.
0:08:40- It's flat, it's got two stubby little feet
0:08:42on the right and left sides,
0:08:43then it's got a kickstand on the back.
0:08:45- Correct, okay, we're talking about the same thing.
0:08:47That was August 31, 1999.
0:08:49The 23-inch cinema display,
0:08:51which is visually very different, almost iMac-ish.
0:08:55- No, visually very different?
0:08:57You must be thinking,
0:08:58maybe I'm thinking of a different one.
0:08:59- Oh, this is aluminum, 23 inch display.
0:09:02- No, no, that's not what I'm talking about.
0:09:03- Okay, then I take it back.
0:09:04- You're talking about the one
0:09:05with the big plastic clear feet?
0:09:06- Yeah, they made two of those, one at 22 and one at 23.
0:09:09- That was March 21, 2002.
0:09:11That makes much more sense.
0:09:13Okay, I feel better.
0:09:13- Say, that's a pretty small gap in Apple monitor years.
0:09:18- That's basically instant.
0:09:19That's basically the next day.
0:09:20- That was three years, right?
0:09:21It was within three years?
0:09:23- Yeah, it was two and a half years-ish,
0:09:24give or take.
0:09:25- That is the smallest gap I can remember,
0:09:27but pretty much everything else.
0:09:28Look at the Thunderbolt display.
0:09:29That just never got changed and then eventually went away.
0:09:33- Well, no, it didn't.
0:09:34- I mean, you're thinking there was an LED SIM display
0:09:37that was not Thunderbolt.
0:09:38It used, I believe, many display ports.
0:09:40- Yeah, there was a 24-inch Apple LED display
0:09:43that I had at work.
0:09:44- No, but there was also a 27.
0:09:45- 27-inch LED display.
0:09:47- But it was right before Thunderbolt.
0:09:49- Yeah, and then replaced with a Thunderbolt.
0:09:50But honestly, the replacement with a Thunderbolt display,
0:09:52it was, like, the thing that changed about it
0:09:54was the stupid rat tail thing in the Thunderbolt interface.
0:09:57I'm not sure the panel changed at all.
0:09:59- Yeah, I think you might be right.
0:10:00And that thing was buggy as hell.
0:10:02TIFF had one for a while.
0:10:03And yeah, we heard from a lot of people too.
0:10:05Ours was buggy, we heard from a lot of people,
0:10:06theirs were buggy.
0:10:08- And I have one, it was always weird.
0:10:09It's 'cause it didn't run on iOS, that was the problem.
0:10:10(laughing)
0:10:12- Yeah, but seriously, so anyway,
0:10:13so I was in the Apple Store today.
0:10:15I did finally see the studio display
0:10:18and the Mac studio in person.
0:10:20I tried to listen to the fan noise,
0:10:21but you know, yeah, in an Apple Store,
0:10:23you can't hear anything,
0:10:24and we'll have feedback on that in a second.
0:10:25But I could've bought a studio display today
0:10:28if I didn't want the good stand.
0:10:30If I wanted just the regular fixed angle
0:10:32or fixed height stand, that one they actually had
0:10:34in stock in my store here.
0:10:36And I could've bought the table.
0:10:36I'm like, no, if I'm gonna get this thing,
0:10:39I wanna get it with the good stand.
0:10:40(laughing)
0:10:41Because I never run my Apple monitors at stock height.
0:10:44So I could've gotten it, but yeah, I just had to wait.
0:10:46But as soon as I can get one of those,
0:10:48I think I'm going to get one to replace this stupid LG
0:10:50and I'm just gonna mail it to you.
0:10:52- What, mail me the LG?
0:10:53That's like an $80 postage sort of event,
0:10:55but hey, I'll take it.
0:10:56- It's worth it for the joke alone.
0:10:58I think everybody should mail you their LG 5Ks.
0:11:01- And Marco's USB ports still work, right?
0:11:03- Allegedly.
0:11:04- You know what, they were always so unreliable,
0:11:06I don't use them.
0:11:08Right now they're just empty there.
0:11:09- I mean, the one that connects to the computer still works.
0:11:12- Remember, it was the only one
0:11:13that actually friggin' mattered and failed.
0:11:15(laughing)
0:11:17- Does your monitor occasionally go black
0:11:18like Merlin's does?
0:11:19- Yeah, it might.
0:11:20I'm convinced Merlin has the exact same problem.
0:11:22- Oh yeah, he totally does, he has the exact same problem.
0:11:24- Yeah, of course, everyone has that problem.
0:11:26But yeah, it's, oh God, this monitor,
0:11:29I'm so over this monitor, I just want this out of my house.
0:11:33Like, I'm literally willing to spend $2,080
0:11:37to get this monitor out of my house.
0:11:39That's how much I hate it.
0:11:41- You just put it on the floor and throw a blanket over it
0:11:43and it could absorb sound.
0:11:44(laughing)
0:11:46- So getting back to it, so I don't know how far off we are
0:11:49from economically having mini LED,
0:11:53local dimming and everything here,
0:11:54because if you look at the MacBook Pro,
0:11:56the 16 inch MacBook Pro, that display is,
0:11:59what do you think, about half?
0:12:00It's like if you have like two of them,
0:12:02like a left half and a right half,
0:12:03that would about be the 5K area, right?
0:12:06- Mm-hmm, someone should do the math.
0:12:08That seems-- - Maybe three.
0:12:10- Yeah, I think it needs three.
0:12:11- It's like between two and three of those
0:12:12would cover the 5K area.
0:12:14Now I know things are harder to make
0:12:15when you increase the area
0:12:16because for things like yields and everything like that,
0:12:18but I think we're mostly not talking about
0:12:22yields of the panel.
0:12:23we're mostly talking about the backlight technology.
0:12:25That would enable the local dimming--
0:12:27What the hell?
0:12:27(laughing)
0:12:29You know, Siri, I'm not sure I understand either.
0:12:30- Your house missed you.
0:12:32- No, that was my watch that just did that.
0:12:34- Your watch?
0:12:35- Oh, that's the worst.
0:12:37- Anyway, how far are we from being able
0:12:39to economically offer that?
0:12:40I bet it's not, we're not talking like six years from now.
0:12:44If we can do it in the 16 inch MacBook Pro
0:12:45for not that much money relative to the rest
0:12:48of the cost of the computer and everything,
0:12:50we can probably do it in 5K without too extreme of an expense,
0:12:54probably within maybe three years, two years, something like that.
0:12:56I think that's the time frame we're talking about. But again,
0:12:59because of Apple's aforementioned slowness to update the monitors,
0:13:02that's why I think it's going to be more like, you know,
0:13:04three to five years probably before we see it. But that being said,
0:13:07so I did see these things in, I guess in the metal, is that what we call it?
0:13:12That's what people call it. Like for watches.
0:13:14You were in the flesh.
0:13:15Yeah. I was gonna say I was in the flesh. When you see a watch in person,
0:13:18you call it seeing it in the metal.
0:13:19So do we see the same thing at computers?
0:13:21- You do not.
0:13:22You're making that up.
0:13:23Is that a thing that happened?
0:13:24- That's actually the term that watch people use.
0:13:26- When you see it in person, they say,
0:13:28"I saw the watch in the metal?"
0:13:30- That's exactly what they say, yes.
0:13:31- What if it's a ceramic watch?
0:13:33- They usually contain some metal somewhere.
0:13:34(laughing)
0:13:35- Oh my God.
0:13:36- That's a good question though.
0:13:37There are very few watches that are all ceramic casing.
0:13:39Usually at least the button pushers
0:13:41will be metal or something.
0:13:42- Fisher Price watch, it's all plastic, right?
0:13:44- Yeah, but even then you get some metal somewhere.
0:13:45There's a battery at least.
0:13:47- Let's wind up, elastic springs.
0:13:50- Then, yeah, right, you have metal somewhere in there.
0:13:53- It's the watch that Magneto wears in his prison.
0:13:56- Yeah, there it is.
0:13:57- Anyway, so I saw these things, and I gotta say,
0:14:01so number one, the studio display looks fantastic.
0:14:04I was very impressed by it.
0:14:06- Yeah, man.
0:14:07- The raising and lowering stand version,
0:14:09they have one on display.
0:14:10- It's very nice.
0:14:11- Oh, it's so nice.
0:14:12I totally want to get that one when I get one.
0:14:15So how does that compare to the XDR? Because I don't recall having heard anyone who has spent significant time with the XDR and
0:14:22has also seen the studio display and it seemed to me having never spent, you know, meaningful time with the XDR that the
0:14:30mount, the stand was very similar in quality. Is it? That's how it felt to me.
0:14:37I mean the XDR stand is, you know,
0:14:39it's a little bit thicker, like the metal is just a little bit thicker on the base and everything and the little, I guess, neck.
0:14:43- And it rotates.
0:14:44- Right, yes, well.
0:14:46So I would say overall it's very similar quality
0:14:51to an XDR stand at like 2/3 scale or something like that.
0:14:54It's, or thickness or bulk or whatever.
0:14:56Very, very similar.
0:14:57However, the up and down motion
0:15:00of like how easy it is to move up and down,
0:15:01I would say it felt the same.
0:15:03Now I'm not moving my XDR up and down all the time.
0:15:05I set it where I want it and then I set it and forget it.
0:15:09But you do have to set it.
0:15:11So I adjusted the one in the store,
0:15:13moved it up and down a little bit, and it felt great.
0:15:15It felt exactly as high quality as the XDR stand.
0:15:18And actually, the fact that it can't rotate,
0:15:20I consider that a feature, not a bug,
0:15:22because again, I want my monitors to be level.
0:15:25And you know what monitor can never be unlevel?
0:15:28One that can't rotate.
0:15:30And so I would actually prefer it to not have that ability.
0:15:33- This gets back to two things that I said
0:15:34when I originally got my XDR.
0:15:35First, that I was surprised at how the up and down motion
0:15:40wasn't as smooth as I thought it would be.
0:15:42Not that it was janky or loose, it was very tight,
0:15:44but it felt kind of like, I don't know,
0:15:46it didn't feel like a well-oiled machine,
0:15:48it felt a little bit gritty to me, right?
0:15:50And the second thing is that,
0:15:52what you're talking about, you can rotate it, right,
0:15:55but it doesn't have like a click into place
0:15:56for exactly horizontal and exactly vertical.
0:15:59That is a disadvantage if you're like,
0:16:01oh, well how will I know if I'm gonna get it level,
0:16:03but it is also an advantage if you are not sure
0:16:06that your desk or room are level,
0:16:08because then you can make sure the monitor
0:16:10is level even if the stand isn't.
0:16:12Maybe that's not a problem for people
0:16:13who live in new construction, but if you live
0:16:15in an old house in New England,
0:16:16the ability to actually level your monitor,
0:16:19even if your desk isn't level, is actually a feature.
0:16:21Of course, my desk is level, so I don't have to worry
0:16:22about it, or rather, I do have to worry about it,
0:16:24but I can level my desk, and I also leveled my monitor,
0:16:27and like Marco, I got it set where I want it,
0:16:29and I generally don't mess with it.
0:16:30- Yeah, and also, regarding seeing the Mac Studio
0:16:34in the middle, I was very surprised how bulky
0:16:38and blocky it looks in person.
0:16:40It was like, you know, I knew academically
0:16:42like how big it's supposed to be.
0:16:44It looked in person bigger than I expected it to look.
0:16:47And it's still not attractive.
0:16:50But not that I'm, you know, it's fine.
0:16:53It's serving its purpose.
0:16:54So, you know, I'm very glad this product exists.
0:16:58It definitely looks utilitarian.
0:17:01I was surprised, there's a large white power LED
0:17:05on the front.
0:17:06It's not super bright, but it has a larger diameter
0:17:09than a typical little point white LED.
0:17:11It's more of almost like a pencil eraser sized.
0:17:15So that was kind of interesting
0:17:17and a little surprising to see.
0:17:19So if you're sensitive to that,
0:17:20you might wanna get one of those little
0:17:21like stick on light cover tape things for it.
0:17:23But otherwise, no, it looks pretty cool.
0:17:26Just it looked big.
0:17:27- It's a chunk.
0:17:28- Yeah, yeah.
0:17:29It's not something that I would want,
0:17:32like they have it, in all their pictures,
0:17:33they have it kind of like sticking out
0:17:35from under the monitor a little bit.
0:17:36So it's like a few inches
0:17:38in front of the monitor a little bit.
0:17:39because they wanted to be in the product shot.
0:17:40Here I am.
0:17:41- In practice, you're never gonna wanna have that
0:17:43be sticking out past the monitor on your desk.
0:17:45You're gonna tuck it behind it somewhere,
0:17:47like off to the side.
0:17:48- Although it is nice that it fits underneath.
0:17:50I think that's kind of like a space saving thing.
0:17:51Like if the space is tight,
0:17:53you don't actually need a separate space on the desk for it.
0:17:55You can just let it be sort of be in the shadow
0:17:57of the monitor.
0:17:57But was it Jason Snow was just pointing out
0:18:00a plexiglass thing that mounts under your desk.
0:18:02It's really, what it actually is
0:18:04is a dual Mac mini under desk mount, right?
0:18:07but because this is about the same size as two MacMamies,
0:18:10you can just buy it, put it under your desk,
0:18:11put the studio in it, and then you
0:18:14wouldn't have to see it at all.
0:18:15It would just be stuck under your desk,
0:18:17and maybe you wouldn't hear it as much either.
0:18:20We are brought to you this week by Linode, my favorite place
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0:20:06Thank you so much to Linode for hosting all my stuff
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0:20:10On a completely random note,
0:20:15you know what's painting me a little bit?
0:20:17Knowing that there is a black version of the keyboard
0:20:20and trackpad that I'm using right now and I don't have it.
0:20:22'Cause I don't have anything against the white version,
0:20:24but after having spent years with the iMac Pros,
0:20:27black keys, well dark gray or whatever it was,
0:20:31and black trackpad.
0:20:34Now, as of the event, you can get,
0:20:36and they're obscenely expensive,
0:20:38but you can get a black keyboard and a black trackpad.
0:20:40I really want it.
0:20:41- So I gotta say, I saw the black peripherals
0:20:44in person today as well.
0:20:45I wasn't that impressed by them,
0:20:46but maybe it's just not my style.
0:20:47I will say, the reason I was in the Apple Store--
0:20:50- Other than the studio display.
0:20:52- Well, I was shopping at Whole Foods
0:20:52like almost next door to it, and so I walked over there,
0:20:54but the reason I was there is that for tonight's recording,
0:20:57I wanted to get myself a Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter
0:21:00so I could use my other Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter.
0:21:03It's for, you know, remember when I have recorded here
0:21:05in the past, we had some issues using WiFi.
0:21:07- Ah, yes. - And the USB,
0:21:09the stupid, you know, Belkin-made USB-C Ethernet adapter
0:21:12is not very good or fast or reliable,
0:21:14but and I had two of the Apple Thunderbolt
0:21:16Ethernet adapters, one of them's at the beach
0:21:18and I had one here, I just didn't have the converter
0:21:20to use it on Thunderbolt 3.
0:21:22Secondly, I wanted to get the new little Touch ID keyboard
0:21:26because I wanted to try it out, try using it as a keyboard,
0:21:30maybe I could switch to it.
0:21:31I've already decided that's probably not going to happen,
0:21:33but it is kinda nice.
0:21:35But I wanted to have the thing where you Velcro it
0:21:38under the desk or something so that you can touch ID
0:21:40with it while still using a good keyboard
0:21:42on top of your desk.
0:21:43And I did try using it for this afternoon
0:21:46for while setting up my computer
0:21:48and responding to some emails and stuff.
0:21:49And it's almost a good keyboard.
0:21:52I could almost see myself using it,
0:21:54but the damn arrow keys.
0:21:56Remember we talked about how they apparently
0:21:58rounded the corners of this keyboard so much?
0:22:01- 'Cause you got the one without the numeric keypad.
0:22:03- Yes, I did.
0:22:04- Bingo, mistake.
0:22:06- The numeric keypad one's too wide.
0:22:08But I think I might try that at some point.
0:22:11- Aren't you ambidextrous now?
0:22:13You use lefty trackpad and everything?
0:22:14- I do use lefty trackpad and righty mouse,
0:22:17but I just don't like having the mouse
0:22:18all the way off in New Jersey when I'm trying to,
0:22:21but man, this keyboard is almost really good,
0:22:25except for those damn full height left and right arrow keys.
0:22:28That was messing me up constantly.
0:22:30Like, you know, I'm used to the Microsoft Sculpt
0:22:31that I use all the time.
0:22:32I've even, by the way, quick little thing.
0:22:34Lenovo released a new ergonomic keyboard recently.
0:22:37I bought one, I tried it.
0:22:38It was so bad and I couldn't return it,
0:22:40I actually threw it away.
0:22:41That's how bad that was.
0:22:42So if anybody's wondering if I've found anything better
0:22:45than the Microsoft Sculpt for a split ergonomic keyboard,
0:22:48no. (laughs)
0:22:49But anyway, so going to the Apple thing,
0:22:52it's almost really good.
0:22:53I just, if they made the small keyboard
0:22:56without the numeric keypad going off all the way
0:22:58into New Jersey, but with regular half-height
0:23:01left and right arrow keys,
0:23:03that would be an amazing product.
0:23:04I'd be so happy with that.
0:23:06I might even stop using my ergonomic keyboard entirely
0:23:08for that product, but as it stands, unfortunately,
0:23:11we haven't gotten there yet.
0:23:12But having Touch ID is really cool.
0:23:13And I was also interested to see that
0:23:15by setting up this Touch ID keyboard
0:23:18with my 16-inch MacBook Pro,
0:23:20which of course has its own Touch ID sensor
0:23:22on the MacBook Pro, I didn't have to re-register
0:23:25my fingerprint for the keyboard.
0:23:27So it must have either transferred my fingerprint data
0:23:30over somehow, which I'm not sure how that's possible,
0:23:32while also having the whole security thing that they do
0:23:35where it's all locked in, or there's some kind of
0:23:37common hash that it stores and it's able to read
0:23:40the same fingerprint data from two different sensors
0:23:43and match one common hash.
0:23:44But I thought that was kind of an interesting
0:23:45little side effect that I expected I'd have to train
0:23:48my own fingerprint again on this new sensor, but I didn't.
0:23:51- Yeah, I think the Secure Enclave is on the M1, right?
0:23:55It's not in the keyboard, but I might be wrong.
0:23:57- Yeah, that's probably it.
0:23:58So it's transmitting my fingerprint image somehow
0:24:01from this keyboard.
0:24:02- Well, not the image, but some amount of data,
0:24:04but who knows?
0:24:05- By the way, just some real time follow-up here.
0:24:07R. Mori in the chat has linked,
0:24:09there's actually a whole Apple support document
0:24:12on how the Magic Keyboard with Touch ID
0:24:14does the fingerprint security,
0:24:16and how it securely transmits stuff
0:24:19between it and the computer.
0:24:20So we'll link that in the show notes as well.
0:24:21- You know, hearing you, to go back a step,
0:24:23talk about the officially called Magic Keyboard
0:24:26with Touch ID for Mac models with Apple Silicon,
0:24:27hyphen US English.
0:24:29That's a very non-Apple name.
0:24:31- That's almost one of those like Amazon keyboard spam
0:24:33titles.
0:24:34- Seriously, my goodness.
0:24:35Anyways, when I was buying my new setup,
0:24:37when I got my new computer,
0:24:38I got the keyboard that has numeric keypad on it.
0:24:42And I do like numeric keypad,
0:24:44but I don't use it that terribly often.
0:24:46And I understand what you're saying,
0:24:47and I know you're being hyperbolic,
0:24:49But even though my trackpad is east of where I would
0:24:53potentially want it to be, I wouldn't go so far as to say
0:24:55it's in New Jersey or anything like that,
0:24:57or for us it would be the eastern shore.
0:24:59But nevertheless, it is further away
0:25:01than I would prefer in a perfect world.
0:25:02But-- - New Jersey is west of me,
0:25:04I just, I face south.
0:25:05- Fair, okay, well, that's true actually,
0:25:07that's a good point.
0:25:08But anyways, the point is that the reason I didn't get
0:25:10the keyboard that you ended up with was expressly
0:25:12because I knew those arrow keys were going to drive me
0:25:14friggin' nuts.
0:25:16And so I thought, you know what,
0:25:18I'm just gonna bite the bullet and I'm just gonna go ahead
0:25:20and I'm gonna get the one with the keypad
0:25:22because I would prefer to have the arrow keys
0:25:24that are not, the consistent arrow keys
0:25:26where everything is a full key size.
0:25:29- Just a quick update on Apple peripherals
0:25:31with black key caps and so on.
0:25:34Stephen Hackett had a good post to remind us.
0:25:36It was a discussion about the black MacBook
0:25:38and how that would cost more,
0:25:39but it came with a bigger hard drive.
0:25:40But even if you accounted for the bigger hard drive,
0:25:42it still costs a little bit more.
0:25:43So it's a thing that Apple still does,
0:25:45reading from his webpage.
0:25:47we'll put a link in the showrooms,
0:25:48the current Magic Mouse, or I don't know if this is current,
0:25:50but anyway, the Magic Mouse, white with 79, black 99.
0:25:53The Magic Trackpad, white 129, black 149.
0:25:56Magic Keyboard with Touch ID, numeric keypad,
0:25:58white 179, black 199.
0:26:01- I wanted the black MacBook
0:26:02until I saw someone else's in person,
0:26:05and it was just covered in fingerprints.
0:26:07Oh my, it smudged up.
0:26:10- Oh, but it was the white ones,
0:26:12which I had a white poly book,
0:26:13and it was covered in finger grease.
0:26:15- I feel like it's easier to keep the white things clean
0:26:18than it is to keep the black one's finger ungreased
0:26:20because it's harder to clean off fingers.
0:26:23- Also, who are you to be throwing stones
0:26:25about black keyboards, mister?
0:26:27I always bought black cars for you.
0:26:28- I still have a black keyboard right here.
0:26:30I just don't happen to have very greasy fingers
0:26:31or I wash my hands before I touch my computer.
0:26:33I have a black mouse, I have a black keycap.
0:26:35I was lucky enough for my extremely inexpensive Mac Pro
0:26:38came with a keyboard and black keycaps
0:26:40and a black mouse that I've never unwrapped.
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0:28:44- All right, we should, I guess, maybe do follow-up,
0:28:50or aren't we supposed to start the show at this point?
0:28:52- Yeah, someone derailed us, I can't remember.
0:28:54- Yeah, well, jeez, it must have been Marco,
0:28:55couldn't have been me.
0:28:56All right, so we should do some actual follow-ups.
0:28:59So friend of the show, Mark Edwards over at Django,
0:29:01who makes John's favorite app in the entire world,
0:29:04iStat Menus, he put together a follow-up to his post
0:29:09from several years ago that started me down
0:29:11this whole journey of looking into monitors
0:29:14and high DPI monitors and so on and so forth.
0:29:18Well, Mark has put together a revisit
0:29:21in much the same way I had on my post in December,
0:29:24and he walks through kind of, you know,
0:29:27let's talk again about what it is we want,
0:29:29why we want it, et cetera.
0:29:30And did you know, fellas, it turns out
0:29:32that when you have a visual medium
0:29:35and you're trying to discuss visual things,
0:29:37it's very easy to display examples
0:29:41of exactly what we're talking about.
0:29:42So if you were curious, listener,
0:29:44as to why we keep banging this drum
0:29:47and barking up this tree,
0:29:48then I encourage you to check out this post
0:29:51because it is abundantly obvious very, very quickly
0:29:55exactly what we're talking about.
0:29:56Also, actually, that reminds me,
0:29:58last week I meant to say out loud, and I didn't,
0:30:02but I did put in the show notes,
0:30:04I went back and watched the iOS,
0:30:06or excuse me, iPhone 4 retina display announcement
0:30:11with Steve Jobs, and I put in the show notes,
0:30:13but I completely forgot to say anything about it.
0:30:15And in very Steve fashion, he does a phenomenal job
0:30:20in just a couple of minutes of explaining
0:30:22exactly why retina is a big deal,
0:30:24in a much better way than any one of us can
0:30:26just using our voices.
0:30:27So it's in the last episode's show notes,
0:30:30if I remember, I'll try to copy it
0:30:31to this episode's show notes as well.
0:30:33But it is absolutely worth the, I don't know,
0:30:35five or 10 minutes of your time
0:30:37if you're still confused why we want Retina so bad.
0:30:39So go check that out too.
0:30:41- So you mentioned how it's really nice
0:30:43to have a blog post for this visual medium,
0:30:45for this visual explanation.
0:30:47Well, I happened to read this blog post earlier today
0:30:50while sitting outside at a playground with,
0:30:52you know, Adam was playing and I was like sitting there,
0:30:53you know, as I was sitting at this playground bench
0:30:57with no parents I knew around me to talk to,
0:30:59I was reading my phone, of course,
0:31:00and the wind just kept blowing in my eyes
0:31:03and my eyes were just watering the entire time.
0:31:06In retrospect, that was most likely
0:31:08because of the pollen and the missed allergy pill,
0:31:10but at the time I thought,
0:31:11"Man, it's just really windy today."
0:31:13And my eyes were just constantly watering
0:31:15and I'm trying to read this article
0:31:16and I kept wanting to wipe my eyes
0:31:17and they're getting all itchy and red
0:31:19from all the wiping then.
0:31:20- Who else would have thought
0:31:21you were having an emotional experience?
0:31:22- Yeah, it looked like that.
0:31:23It really, and I actually thought,
0:31:25I'm like, people might think I'm crying here.
0:31:26It's actually like there's a lot of water
0:31:28coming out of my eyes right now.
0:31:29- Non-native scaling makes you sad.
0:31:31- Well, yeah, I mean.
0:31:32(laughing)
0:31:34Anyway, yeah, so that was a very good article
0:31:36that I read through tears of pollen.
0:31:38- And joy.
0:31:39- Yes, also pollen, mostly pollen.
0:31:41- I can tell you that this, like the mid-Atlantic
0:31:44is real bad, it may not be the worst,
0:31:45but it is real bad for pollen, and it is very frustrating.
0:31:50And what's worse is, because I'm getting ever older,
0:31:52it affects me more and more every year.
0:31:54And I assure you, when you have rigid gas permeable,
0:31:57or otherwise known as hard contact lenses,
0:31:59if even a microscopic speck of pollen
0:32:02ends up between your eyeball and your contact,
0:32:05it's like getting stabbed to death in the eye.
0:32:06It is delightful, I assure you.
0:32:08- I can tell you, I know that my most popular
0:32:12subject matter that I can cover is medical advice.
0:32:14Everyone loves--
0:32:15(laughing)
0:32:16- And it never goes poorly for you.
0:32:17- Yes, everybody loves whenever I discuss medical advice.
0:32:20However, I can tell you, I have had good experiences
0:32:23with adult allergy shots.
0:32:26I got them when I was a kid also, like more regularly.
0:32:29- It makes it sound dirty, won't it?
0:32:30(laughing)
0:32:32Adult, all right, go on.
0:32:34- Yes, allergy shots as an adult,
0:32:39not like explicit allergy shots.
0:32:42No, I can actually recommend, it actually helped a lot
0:32:44and takes way less time than you think to build up immunity.
0:32:47- But you just said how you're dying from your eyes.
0:32:48If it helps so much, why are you still bothered so badly?
0:32:50- 'Cause I haven't gotten them in like three years
0:32:52'cause they don't have them at the beach.
0:32:53- Gonna get back on that shot train.
0:32:54(laughing)
0:32:57Ay yi yi.
0:32:57What are we doing right now?
0:32:58Is this the show? Is this what people tune in for?
0:33:00- I believe we're still in the pre-show.
0:33:01We're trying to do a follow-up. It's not working.
0:33:03- It's not working. - Keep trying.
0:33:05- All right, we'll keep, we'll soldier on.
0:33:07All right, so we've been dropping hints about this.
0:33:10We had some really genuinely great feedback
0:33:12from a couple of different audio people,
0:33:15and I know that's not the right term, and I'm sorry,
0:33:17but one of them that wrote in was Sam Kosnetz,
0:33:19and Sam writes, "I'm a theatrical sound designer,
0:33:22"and a very big part of my job is ensuring
0:33:24"that audience members sitting in different places
0:33:26"in the theater have more or less
0:33:27the same acoustic experience as each other. This involves a lot of measuring of sound
0:33:31in a whole bunch of different ways, so it's become a topic that's very near and dear to
0:33:34me. Something that we came close to touching on several times in episode 476, but never
0:33:39exactly addressed, is the relationship between loudness and distance. We can say things like,
0:33:44quote, "A car passing by is 65 decibels," quote, or "A jet engine is 140 decibels,"
0:33:49but those numbers don't mean anything without knowing the distance between the source of
0:33:52the sound and the measurement device. Regarding the 3-decibel MacBook, Apple's operator position
0:33:57measurements are almost certainly taken within an anechoic chamber completely isolated from
0:34:02outside sources of noise. In this environment, the three decibels that they pick up from the MacBook
0:34:05Air is certainly thermally induced, but it's hard to say what exactly it is. My guess is vibration
0:34:10of any parts that have flexed, like keyboard keys or the hinge of the lid. This is very close to the
0:34:14edge of what is physically possible to measure, so it's shrug-worthy territory. Apple's probably
0:34:19obligated to report whatever they measure, even if it's hard to explain, since it's part of the
0:34:22official technical specifications of the device. Finally, there was the question of noticing a
0:34:27a three decibel difference or not, with the acoustician stating that a three decibel difference
0:34:30was close to unnoticeable and Marco observing that when he makes a three decibel change
0:34:33while editing podcasts, he very clearly notices it. This is one of those great examples of
0:34:38"you're both right!" and the reason is that you're likely not talking about the same scale,
0:34:41because a decibel isn't a fixed quantity, it's a ratio, and without a reference point,
0:34:45a decibel means nothing. Measurements of the loudness of things in the real world use the
0:34:50decibel SPL scale. The SPL means "sound pressure level" and is calibrated against a specific
0:34:56amount of air pressure. The reference point for one decibel SPL is 20 micropascals, which
0:35:01is the smallest quantity of air pressure that a human ear is able to perceive. Anything
0:35:05less than that doesn't have enough energy to motivate the mechanism of the ear. When
0:35:08Marco makes a three decibel adjustment while editing, he's working in the DBFS domain,
0:35:11or decibel file system domain, just kidding. The decibel full scale, which uses as its
0:35:17reference point the loudest possible sound that can be encoded on disk at the given sample
0:35:21rate and bit depth. And this next part actually blew my mind. I had no idea this was the case.
0:35:26So back to Sam here, this is why almost all level measurement
0:35:29in audio software uses negative numbers.
0:35:31They're all saying, quote, "How much quieter is this level
0:35:34than the absolute loudest possible level
0:35:36that I can reproduce?"
0:35:36Quote, "I had no idea, that's why I always saw
0:35:39negative stuff in Final Cut Pro, that's so cool.
0:35:41So I've learned something."
0:35:42- You also see it if you have an AV receiver
0:35:43and you adjust the volume on it.
0:35:44- Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's very good
0:35:46that it shows you a negative number.
0:35:47- That's true, I didn't think about that, yeah, you're right.
0:35:49- If you think about it, like, zero,
0:35:52it's kind of hard to say, well, what is the quietest sound?
0:35:54that depends a lot on the sensitivity
0:35:56of what you are recording or measuring it with.
0:35:58As you increase the signal to noise ratio,
0:36:00or you decrease the noise floor,
0:36:02or like in digital terms, if you increase the bit depth,
0:36:04like from 16 bit to 24 bit or 32 bit,
0:36:07the smallest or tiniest little measurable sound
0:36:10gets quieter the more sensitive you're representing it.
0:36:13Whereas you can always easily represent
0:36:15what is the loudest.
0:36:16Like the loudest is like your digital circuit is at one,
0:36:20like 1.0 or whatever,
0:36:21it's like it's the maximum capacity
0:36:23of that circuit before it clips.
0:36:25It's the highest value it can represent, whatever it is.
0:36:27So it makes sense to set that as your starting point
0:36:30and then represent everything as,
0:36:32how far below that are we?
0:36:34Because the depth of that can change over time.
0:36:37- Right, and then Sam finishes up,
0:36:38a three decibel adjustment within your editor
0:36:40may not equate to a three decibel SPL difference
0:36:43once that signal makes its way
0:36:44through the rest of the signal path.
0:36:46And even if it does, it isn't equating
0:36:48to an actual level of three decibel SPL.
0:36:51It's equal to maybe 63 or 73 decibels SPL.
0:36:54Human hearing perception is not linear,
0:36:55and the decibel scale is neither.
0:36:57The difference between 70 decibels SPL
0:36:58and 73 decibels SPL is more perceptible
0:37:01than the difference between zero decibels SPL
0:37:04and three decibels SPL.
0:37:05This is all fascinating,
0:37:06and I know that was a little bit long,
0:37:07but I was riveted by all of it.
0:37:10- I think this is another time to say that all of which
0:37:12is interesting and important background knowledge,
0:37:14but does not solve the very, I mean, it's not a mystery,
0:37:19But the very puzzling reality of the wildly varying reports
0:37:24we continue to get from people who have owned
0:37:27or are near Mac Studios, right?
0:37:30It's just, I've been tweeting about it all week long.
0:37:32And I'm not saying any of these people are wrong,
0:37:34but this is really, the variability is just off the charts.
0:37:37It's even made some people guess
0:37:39that maybe there's like a manufacturing problem
0:37:41and some are loud or some are quiet
0:37:42because people are saying, like you get,
0:37:44all the way from the people saying, I have one,
0:37:47I live in a tomb where there is no noise or wind and I can't hear it at all.
0:37:54And my ears are the best ears.
0:37:55I won the hearing contest in my town.
0:37:57I can't hear a thing.
0:37:58And other people are like, I'm returning my $8,000 computer because I can't stand the
0:38:02noise.
0:38:03It's so loud.
0:38:04You have no idea.
0:38:05Right?
0:38:06Some people even said they could hear the display.
0:38:07I'm like, come on, you can hear the display.
0:38:09No one had said they could hear the display.
0:38:10I'm like, at least the whole world agrees.
0:38:12You can't hear the fans in the Apple studio display.
0:38:14And then people, until you get yours.
0:38:16And then you're going to say, "I absolutely can hear it."
0:38:17I can't hear the fans in my XDR.
0:38:20I said that before.
0:38:21My XDR has fans.
0:38:22I do not hear them, right?
0:38:23But anyway, the Mac studio is all over the map, right?
0:38:26We even had somebody who said, "I bought two Mac studios.
0:38:29One was the Ultra and one was the Max, and I can hear the Max, but I can't hear the Ultra."
0:38:32It's the same person.
0:38:33Literally the same person.
0:38:34And one of them is like, "Well, the Ultra has the copper heatsink and blah, blah, blah."
0:38:39But every other person who tested them said, "The fans stay at the same RPM.
0:38:43Apple has said it's the same cooling assembly in both of them.
0:38:45The heat sink is baffling.
0:38:49All this academic stuff about explaining the decibel differences in SPL or whatever, that's
0:38:53good to understand the measurements we were getting.
0:38:55It's like, "Oh, well, we don't have to rely on people's reported annoyance level.
0:39:00We can just take measurements with science."
0:39:02This explains how the science would work, but almost everyone who's told us about the
0:39:06science has also thrown in a little aside as if it's unimportant to say, "Of course,
0:39:10the quality of the sound matters."
0:39:13If it is broad spectrum, high pitch, low pitch, loudness is just one factor that goes into
0:39:21is this sound annoying or even can I hear it?
0:39:24And so the subjective support reports in many ways are all that does matter, right?
0:39:29Because it's not like we're measuring a single frequency tone at different sound levels.
0:39:34It's we're measuring a very complicated sound in very complicated environments and then
0:39:39subjecting it to individual people and right now the individual people do not
0:39:43agree are these computers dead silent are they the noisiest things Apple has
0:39:46ever made and need to be returned and in the end all that matters is what you
0:39:50listener or me or Marco or whatever what you think about it when you buy yours
0:39:54because who cares if other people can't stand the noise that if you buy one and
0:39:57you can't hear it success or if everyone else thinks it's quiet and you buy one
0:40:01and can't stand the noise that's bad so I'm still hoping that by the time my Mac
0:40:06studio actually ships sometime this summer, whatever issues they might have will be sorted
0:40:09out and I'm just hoping I'm old enough that this sound won't bother me.
0:40:13But if it was a taste related thing, you are a supertaster and you would know.
0:40:16I mean, I think your taste buds get crappier as you get older.
0:40:19Everything is crappier as you get older for the most part.
0:40:21So even that's probably fading with age.
0:40:24But you know, if it tastes good, being a supertaster is great.
0:40:26It tastes like a thousand peaches.
0:40:29Thousand pears.
0:40:30Come on chat room, help me out.
0:40:32These two aren't gonna.
0:40:33Millions of peaches.
0:40:35- Thanks for having me.
0:40:36- Nice.
0:40:37- All right, and moving right along.
0:40:38Chris Gagne writes, "It appears that some common
0:40:40"USBC Ethernet adapters, like the Belkin 1 Apple cells,
0:40:43"have issues reaching full gigabit speeds
0:40:45"plugged into the studio display.
0:40:46"I could only hit about 400 megabits per second
0:40:48"via speed test when plugged into the studio display
0:40:50"and about 920 megabits per second,
0:40:52"close to the limit of gigabit,
0:40:54"plugged directly into my MacBook Pro 14 inch.
0:40:56"However, an Anker 2.5 gigabit Ethernet adapter,
0:40:59"an Anker 2.5G model, was able to reach
0:41:01"at least gigabit speeds, and I was consistently
0:41:03getting download speeds of about 930 gigabits per second when it when I
0:41:06plugged it into the studio display. I don't have a 2.5 gigabit Ethernet
0:41:11network to test its full capabilities but this solves my issue. I didn't put
0:41:16this in here I'm not sure why we why do we care. I mean it's just an interesting
0:41:19thing to consider for you know the getting the full capabilities of your
0:41:23monitor and the mysteries of things that fit into USB-C shaped holes but may not
0:41:27you know what I mean like it's just it never ends it's not even just cables.
0:41:32Yeah, I mean, I get that. I don't know. I would really love for someone to put together
0:41:38like an online calculator for all the stuff flying through a Thunderbolt connection. Because
0:41:44I feel like, and this is very unscientific of me, but I feel like, well, you know, the
0:41:495k displays carrying that 5k is a lot of data to pass and it has to pass it very frequently.
0:41:55So if the, if the network connection is a little slower, well, I get that. And, and
0:41:59And again, that's not scientific at all.
0:42:01But I wish someone would put together some sort of online calculator where you could
0:42:05say, you know, something like, "Oh, I've got a 5K display and I've got a this or that and
0:42:10the other thing.
0:42:11When do I get into the danger zone of throughput or something like that?"
0:42:15So somebody make that for me, please, and thank you.
0:42:17Real time update.
0:42:18I got the fruit right eventually but blew the number.
0:42:20Hundred pairs or million pairs?
0:42:22Not a thousand pairs.
0:42:23Link in the show notes.
0:42:24I have no idea what you're talking about.
0:42:26Well, I put it in the chat room.
0:42:27I put it at the top of the document.
0:42:28- Oh, they might be giants?
0:42:31Oh, fair enough, okay.
0:42:33All right, let's talk about, from about 15 years ago,
0:42:35iCloud and custom domains.
0:42:37Dominic Lautner wrote a blog post, or a post about
0:42:41a lot of the problems with iCloud and custom email domains,
0:42:44and to quickly go through some of them.
0:42:47There's no catch-all address support,
0:42:49so this is, you know, my email address is @caseylist.com.
0:42:53Well, if you were to email FUBAR@caseylist.com,
0:42:57which isn't a valid address, I can set it up
0:43:00such that that will go to a particular email address of mine
0:43:03that I do check, and iCloud doesn't allow that.
0:43:06There's also, according to Dominic,
0:43:08aggressive DNS record validation.
0:43:10There's no inbound email relay support,
0:43:13and the error messages are, guess what,
0:43:15super duper opaque and useless,
0:43:17because hey, Apple, this is what you love to do.
0:43:19- Yeah, Dominic, when you looked into this,
0:43:22got a crappy error message, and being an industrious,
0:43:25probably developer or whatever, said,
0:43:27I need more.
0:43:28And then just because it's like a web type thing,
0:43:30you can just look at the AJAX request going back and forth
0:43:34and look at the actual JSON.
0:43:36And so the UI error was, there was a problem
0:43:40adding this email address.
0:43:41Please try again later, which is like the worst copy,
0:43:43because try again later, it's like,
0:43:45is it going to be different later?
0:43:46Or is it just like, is this just a form of torture?
0:43:49Because later, it makes it seem like there
0:43:52is a temporary condition that you think will resolve, right?
0:43:55But if you look at the JSON, the JSON has an error code,
0:43:58whatever, some number.
0:43:59And then it has an error message key in the JSON.
0:44:01And the error message is MX record not pointing to iCloud.
0:44:05Boy, that would be useful to know,
0:44:07because now you know how to fix it if you know what an MX--
0:44:10at least you have a hint if you know what an MX record is.
0:44:12And I understand this is technical,
0:44:13and most people don't understand that.
0:44:14But that is not the equivalent of there
0:44:16was a problem ending with the email, please try again later.
0:44:17Because later, it will not work unless someone changes the MX
0:44:20record between now and later.
0:44:22And it reminded me of experience I'm
0:44:25having with my iPhoto library or Apple Photos library,
0:44:31where it will get into a state where it'll say,
0:44:32restoring from iCloud dot, dot, dot,
0:44:35and it will just stay that way forever.
0:44:38And I look at it and I wonder, what's really going on?
0:44:41Please tell me.
0:44:42Like, are you ever going to complete?
0:44:44Are you stuck on something?
0:44:45Is there an image you can't get to?
0:44:48And I resort to such ridiculous things.
0:44:50Obviously, I'm looking in console for anything.
0:44:52There's nothing helpful there.
0:44:53using FS usage and SC usage, running them
0:44:56in every process I can think of.
0:44:57The photo library D, the photos application itself,
0:45:03the cloud sync D, like just, I just want to,
0:45:07I mean, 'cause you look at it and like,
0:45:08nothing's happening on the computer.
0:45:09The CPU is not being stressed,
0:45:11it's not a lot of disk IO, but there's a little bit
0:45:12and you're like, is the, are photos,
0:45:16is something happening related to photos?
0:45:18Because I left it on this thing for like days
0:45:20a couple of times before I gave up
0:45:22and just rebuilt the whole library with the,
0:45:23you hold down launch photos and hold down command option,
0:45:25it'll rebuild the whole library,
0:45:27which also takes forever by the way,
0:45:28which is why I didn't wanna do it.
0:45:29But eventually, after several days
0:45:31of it just having an opaque message like this,
0:45:33I just gave up.
0:45:34So I really wish Apple would, like,
0:45:37it's a difficult problem,
0:45:38'cause you don't wanna throw weird error messages
0:45:39in people's faces, they're confusing,
0:45:40nobody knows what an MX record is for the most part.
0:45:43So I get why they're trying to hide it,
0:45:45but there should be some way for people who want to know
0:45:48or want some kind of hint to figure out,
0:45:51Is this irretrievably wedged?
0:45:53Is it doing something?
0:45:54Or should I give up and rebuild the thing?
0:45:57And Apple continues to be terrible about this.
0:45:59I thought this was interesting that this subject came up
0:46:02in an otherwise unrelated topic of iCloud custom domains.
0:46:07- Indeed.
0:46:08And then there, Dominic also talks about some notes
0:46:10about coupling with Apple IDs,
0:46:12emails sent from addresses without an account get dropped,
0:46:16which is super delightful.
0:46:18And according to Dominic, third-party clients
0:46:21may leak your Apple ID, which is also super delightful.
0:46:23So there's problems.
0:46:26And you might want to tread carefully
0:46:29if that's what you want to do.
0:46:30- These problems may or may not apply to you.
0:46:31Like follow the link to the article
0:46:32to see them in much more detail.
0:46:33This is just a quick bulleted list,
0:46:35but there are sort of edge cases that may concern you
0:46:38that you should look into.
0:46:40- And finally, with regard to iCloud email stuff,
0:46:45Eli Lindsay writes that despite including instructions
0:46:48to configure DNS entries for domain keys,
0:46:50identified mail or DKIM.
0:46:52DKIM signatures are not generated when sending mail
0:46:55from iOS or Mac OS mail app.
0:46:57DKIM is generated when sending from the iCloud web mail
0:47:00client, but who actually uses that?
0:47:02This means that outgoing mail takes a deliverability hit,
0:47:05though it's still generally OK, since sender policy framework
0:47:08or SPF is properly configured.
0:47:11Cool.
0:47:12Anything else we'd like to add about that?
0:47:13Use fast mail, I guess.
0:47:15Yeah, oh, and speaking of, I've had a few questions
0:47:17about what I've done with regards to my Gmail and Google App Shear domain. What I've done
0:47:21is I've continued to kick that can down the road and not think about it. But my current
0:47:26plan is the same as it was before, which is even though there apparently are some ways
0:47:30that you can ask Google, "Please, please sir, please can I have some more?" And you might
0:47:35be able to get access in certain circumstances forever, I just plan to divorce myself from
0:47:41Google at this point. And so I do plan to get a Fast Mail account. I need to do that
0:47:44soon because I would love to pull a Marko and get all of the referral credit, but I
0:47:49haven't done so yet. So please, if you're thinking about sending any referral credit
0:47:54my way, please just hold on a little bit longer. I promise I'll get to it at some point.
0:47:58All righty, let's talk about iPhone 14 rumors. And there have been a bunch lately because
0:48:05we're coming up to that time, which actually speaking of, I'm a little surprised that we
0:48:09haven't heard about WWDC yet. It's April. What the heck?
0:48:11- Yeah, it's one of those like any day now situations,
0:48:14but I mean, frankly, I would be very surprised
0:48:17if it would be any different than the last couple years.
0:48:19I think it's very little chance that it's in person,
0:48:22so it's probably gonna be another remote conference.
0:48:24And frankly, I mean, we talk about this every year,
0:48:26but frankly, I think remote is better.
0:48:30And it isn't better in all ways,
0:48:32but it's better in many ways.
0:48:34And I think if they went back to having it in person again,
0:48:38certain parts of it would feel like a step backwards.
0:48:41Can you imagine going to what used to be called
0:48:43the Fairmont and what is now, Hilton bought it
0:48:46and renamed it, but it's like, going back to one of these--
0:48:48- I'll let you know that.
0:48:49- Yeah, but you know, I checked the other day for fun,
0:48:51like, what does it cost for that first full week of June
0:48:54where it would most likely be if it was in person?
0:48:56And it's like $475 a night.
0:48:59(laughing)
0:49:00- It's full of money.
0:49:00- And of course, every San Jose and San Francisco hotel
0:49:03is in that ballpark if it's anywhere near decent.
0:49:08Not even, we're not even talking like really fancy hotels,
0:49:10we're talking just like, what would anywhere,
0:49:12in any other city in America,
0:49:13what would be like $100 a night,
0:49:14there it's almost 500.
0:49:16(laughs)
0:49:18But anyway, you know, can you imagine going back there
0:49:21in person and spending a million dollars on a hotel
0:49:24and flying out there from wherever you have to come from,
0:49:27which is a big expense and a big time commitment
0:49:29and everything, and sitting through the terribly slow
0:49:33coffee shops that you find out there,
0:49:34you know, between sessions,
0:49:36and having to go into the conference center
0:49:40and having to wait in line to get into the room
0:49:44to then watch people present on a stage
0:49:47when frankly if you look at the videos they've made
0:49:49over the last couple years, the videos are better.
0:49:52It would seem in many ways like a step backwards.
0:49:54And yeah, I miss the socialization, I miss the labs,
0:49:58like kind of BSing with some engineers here and there.
0:50:01That was fun, but I think what we have now overall
0:50:06is better and you cannot ignore that
0:50:09It's better in many ways even for those of us
0:50:12who were lucky enough to be able to go in person,
0:50:15but there's so many more people who could never go in person
0:50:19or who maybe only go once at best,
0:50:21'cause it's a big ordeal, it's a big expense,
0:50:24it's hard to get tickets.
0:50:26So imagine how much better the current system is now
0:50:31for how many more total people.
0:50:34I really do think if we ever go back in person,
0:50:36it will feel like a step backwards.
0:50:38And we only will have known that by now,
0:50:41having it be better.
0:50:42And then right now we think, oh, we can't wait to go back,
0:50:46but if you do go back, I think you will miss the parts
0:50:49about this that make this so good.
0:50:51- Yeah, I don't know.
0:50:52I wanna go back just 'cause I need an excuse
0:50:55to see all my friends again, but I hear you,
0:50:58and I think you're probably right.
0:50:59If I were to wager a guess, I don't think it'll be this year
0:51:02but I think in maybe next year, it wouldn't surprise me
0:51:06if the keynote becomes a media event where, you know,
0:51:10the John Grubers of the world and so on.
0:51:12And I would love to be invited.
0:51:14- And us, maybe, hey, invite us.
0:51:15- You never know.
0:51:16But you know, the Grubers and the Smells of the World
0:51:18would get invited and would go out and go for one day
0:51:21for the big keynote.
0:51:23If there is hardware,
0:51:25which is not usually their style these days,
0:51:28then maybe they would get some hands-on time
0:51:29with the hardware, and then that would be that,
0:51:31and the rest of the conference would be online,
0:51:33you know, just as it has been.
0:51:35To go back a quick step, hearing you talk about $450 hotels in San Jose, is California
0:51:44like the crypto of states where everyone is just agreeing that it's more expensive?
0:51:53I believe they're called fiat hotels.
0:51:55They're just declared to be that expensive.
0:51:58But like, the Fairmont, while a perfectly reasonable and maybe even fine hotel, I wouldn't
0:52:05so far as to call it ultra-fine.
0:52:06- Is it ultra-fine?
0:52:07- That's a step too far.
0:52:09But it's a perfectly fine hotel.
0:52:11Was it a $450 a night hotel?
0:52:13- No.
0:52:14- No, it was not.
0:52:15- And when we were in San Francisco,
0:52:16was the Park 55 a $350 a night hotel?
0:52:18Absolutely not.
0:52:19- No, it's all about location, though.
0:52:20At least the one in San Francisco is in downtown San Francisco.
0:52:23The one in San Jose is in downtown San Jose,
0:52:25where there is, as far as I'm able to determine, nothing.
0:52:28- I know.
0:52:29I do miss the beer in Sausage Place.
0:52:31That was a very--
0:52:32- What was it?
0:52:33- Are we talking about-- - Yeah,
0:52:34- No, what was that? - "Early Gravity Public House."
0:52:36That and the vegan Indian place across from it
0:52:38are both very good and I miss those places.
0:52:40I do not miss anything else about going to person.
0:52:44- Right, but here's the thing,
0:52:45I feel like crypto, not to really tick off
0:52:49all the crypto people again, but I feel like crypto--
0:52:51- I think we lost them already.
0:52:53- Everyone's agreeing to,
0:52:56we're all deciding as a collective
0:52:58that we're gonna believe that this currency
0:53:01is worth a lot of money, right?
0:53:03- And I feel like, well, but I feel like that's California
0:53:07at this point.
0:53:08We are just all as a society agreeing
0:53:10that California is expensive.
0:53:11- Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them
0:53:13is the phenomenon you're describing.
0:53:14And that's true of the hotels in San Jose as well.
0:53:19- I mean, I guess, but I don't know, man.
0:53:20It just seems like we're all agreeing
0:53:21that we're just gonna get fleeced anytime we step
0:53:24within the state border of California.
0:53:26Like it doesn't matter where you're going.
0:53:26- I mean, the health of the conference,
0:53:28California is a big place.
0:53:29If I knew more about it, I could name some city
0:53:31in California that no one ever goes to
0:53:32where everything is super cheap.
0:53:34- Yeah, see, we should do that.
0:53:35- I don't think they have a lot of big conference centers
0:53:36there, though, and they're probably not close
0:53:38to the airport.
0:53:39- Real time follow up, it looks like Original Gravity
0:53:41Public House is still open, from what I can tell,
0:53:43which is great news.
0:53:44- Oh, thank God.
0:53:45- Yeah, that's what we should do, we should do,
0:53:46oh, and it looks like the gentleman who is pouring a beer
0:53:48on their website has what I think is a Triforce tattoo.
0:53:52That's from a game called The Legend of Zelda, Jon.
0:53:55- Do I need to go look at this photograph
0:53:56to see if it's actually a Triforce?
0:53:57- It probably isn't, actually. (laughs)
0:54:00I'm pretty confident. - Put a link in, please.
0:54:01It's in the chat room.
0:54:03But I feel like Marco, maybe once it's safe,
0:54:07what you and I should do is we should go on a dining tour
0:54:12of WWDCs of years past,
0:54:15and we'll get lunch at Original Gravity,
0:54:18we'll get dinner at House of Prime Rib,
0:54:21and then we can come home.
0:54:21We might not even need to stay the night.
0:54:23We could just come home right then and save 500 bucks.
0:54:26Golly, I miss that place.
0:54:29Original Gravity was great.
0:54:31Their sausages were delightful.
0:54:33Of course all the Germans were listening to this
0:54:34and like, oh really, let me tell you about it.
0:54:37Let me tell you about good sausage.
0:54:38Okay, this is going nowhere.
0:54:39Good, let's talk about iPhone 14.
0:54:40- Everything's relative.
0:54:42- Although we took that entire detour
0:54:44just to avoid talking about the iPhone 14 rumors.
0:54:46I mean frankly, is this very interesting?
0:54:49I don't think it is.
0:54:50Okay, let's hear why.
0:54:51- John, tell us what's interesting.
0:54:54- I mean it's interesting for the drama.
0:54:56It's like the last time we talked about iPhone 14 rumors,
0:54:58I don't know, it was ages ago,
0:54:59And the prevailing rumor at that time,
0:55:01which I think we described as very early,
0:55:02so take with a grain of salt.
0:55:03I was excited about because iPhone 14 is my iPhone year.
0:55:07I buy a new iPhone every two years instead of every one.
0:55:10And recently I've been in the cadence where it's like,
0:55:12when Apple comes out with the new form factor,
0:55:14that's my year.
0:55:15So I get the first of whatever the new thing is.
0:55:19Like I got the first flat-sided one.
0:55:20I got the 12 here, right?
0:55:22And then 13 was also flat-sided.
0:55:25So it was the 14, it's time for new form factor, whatever.
0:55:27And so the rumors they had a while ago
0:55:30were getting me excited 'cause the main thing
0:55:31I didn't like about the 13 Pro, my wife has a 13 Pro,
0:55:34is the gargantuan camera bump.
0:55:37Like, I think we talked about this when we were reviewing
0:55:39our various iPhone 13s and I was saying
0:55:41when I use my wife's phone, very often the camera bump's
0:55:43so big, first of all, that it doesn't lay flat
0:55:44even with the case on it.
0:55:46And second, when I'm holding it,
0:55:47I would bump into the little wall
0:55:49that's around the giant camera bump.
0:55:51I would, you know, it was like, it just didn't,
0:55:54I preferred, I was glad that I had a 12
0:55:56because the 12's camera bump, while big,
0:55:57is nothing compared to the 13 one.
0:55:59It is smaller in width and height,
0:56:00and it sticks out less far from the phone.
0:56:03And I'm like, well, maybe that will be solved by the 14.
0:56:06So the early rumors on the 14 was
0:56:08that it was gonna have a periscope camera,
0:56:10and like no more camera bump, essentially.
0:56:12Like the cameras would be flush,
0:56:15because, you know, we described this before,
0:56:17but the periscope camera is basically like the,
0:56:19the sensor is inside the phone, and it is sideways,
0:56:22and then there's like a little prism,
0:56:23or mirror, or whatever, where the light goes into the phone,
0:56:25and then goes down the phone and all the lens elements are,
0:56:29there'll be a link in the show notes
0:56:30that shows an image of what it looks like,
0:56:31but all the lens elements are stacked sort of sideways
0:56:34inside the phone and that would let you have
0:56:36a very long lens possibly also with an optical zoom
0:56:39on it as well without sticking out a lot from the phone.
0:56:42And then the next set of rumors that started coming were,
0:56:45hey, no more notch, it's gonna have a hole,
0:56:47what they call a hole punch camera,
0:56:48only instead of just a hole punch for the camera,
0:56:50it would be like a circular hole punch for the camera
0:56:53and then a lozenge-shaped hole punch
0:56:55for the remaining Face ID sensor stuff,
0:56:58but the two of them together
0:56:59would be much smaller than a notch.
0:57:00I'm like, wow, this iPhone 14 sounds like
0:57:03it's gonna be awesome.
0:57:04And now as we get closer to actual iPhone 14 time,
0:57:09all my hopes have been dashed.
0:57:11Because now we get the real leaks,
0:57:12people are leaking like the schematics
0:57:13that the case makers get and the CAD drawings
0:57:16and parts leaks of the actual screen.
0:57:18So the hole punch stuff seems to be true.
0:57:20Everyone's leaking all these little different parts
0:57:21that show like a little circle
0:57:22and a lozenge cut out instead of a notch.
0:57:24But honestly, that was the part that I was least excited
0:57:27about because the notch doesn't bother me.
0:57:29And if you're going to have something screwing up
0:57:32the top of your screen, whether it's a smaller notch
0:57:34or a hole punch thing, it's not like you can put content
0:57:37there.
0:57:39You can't put text there.
0:57:40It's in the middle of the line.
0:57:42It's going to break.
0:57:43It's good.
0:57:43They're working on it.
0:57:44They had the notch.
0:57:45They made the notch smaller.
0:57:46Then you get the hole punch.
0:57:47And then iPhone 16 comes around, and you've
0:57:49got the under screen face ID sensors or something,
0:57:52which is another rumor, right?
0:57:53But anyway, there's that.
0:57:54But the real thing that's disappointing me is
0:57:57all these rumors say, yeah, the periscope camera thing,
0:57:59not this year.
0:58:00And not only not this year,
0:58:02but the little drawings of what the iPhone 14
0:58:04is gonna look like, they're saying,
0:58:05oh, you remember the camera model of the 13?
0:58:0714 is gonna be even bigger.
0:58:10Like what, how could it possibly be bigger?
0:58:12Even bigger, it's just gonna like rock on the table
0:58:15no matter what you do to it.
0:58:16So I'm really sad about that.
0:58:19and I'm trying to make myself feel better
0:58:21by thinking about what it means
0:58:23to have an even bigger camera pump than the 13.
0:58:27And apparently, according to the rumors,
0:58:29what it means is the iPhone would be going
0:58:32from a 12 megapixel camera, 1X camera,
0:58:35to a 48 megapixel 1X camera, which is a big step up.
0:58:40And the stats on that for the rumors
0:58:41are we would have the 57% bigger sensor than the 13 Pro,
0:58:46going from 44 millimeter square to 69 millimeter square,
0:58:48and a 28% pixel size increase going from 1.9 micrometers,
0:58:53microns, to 2.44.
0:58:56But there's a caveat there.
0:58:58So like 48 megapixels, like how can,
0:59:00you're saying it's gonna go to 48 megapixels,
0:59:02it's gonna be a 57% bigger sensor,
0:59:05and it's gonna have bigger pixels?
0:59:06How can it have bigger pixels
0:59:07when it's got four times as many of them
0:59:09through the magic of what they confusingly call
0:59:11pixel binning, which is not sorting your pixels
0:59:14by which ones work and which ones don't
0:59:15and selling the ones where everything works
0:59:16is more expensive.
0:59:18That's not what they mean. - It's a different kind
0:59:18of binning.
0:59:19- Yeah, different kind of binning.
0:59:20The binning is, what they will do,
0:59:22oh, this is so confusing with the retina stuff, I'm sorry.
0:59:24But what they will do is they will take
0:59:25a 48 megapixel camera sensor,
0:59:28and in conditions where there's not enough light
0:59:31to be gathered by those tiny, tiny little pixels,
0:59:35they will group together two by two squares of pixels,
0:59:40and those two by two squares of pixels,
0:59:42those bins of four pixels, will act as a single pixel
0:59:47for light gathering purposes.
0:59:48So suddenly your 48 megapixel sensor will act
0:59:52just like a 12 megapixel sensor,
0:59:54which is exactly half as much like a 12 megapixel sensor
0:59:57with much bigger pixels.
0:59:59If there is adequate light, like on a bright sunny day,
1:00:01they will use all 48 individual megapixels.
1:00:04But as the light level goes down,
1:00:06they will bin them together and do that.
1:00:07So this does sound like a very impressive camera
1:00:10and a big upgrade,
1:00:11'cause if you think about how many megapixels
1:00:13have been in the iPhone camera,
1:00:14someone had a timeline somewhere,
1:00:15but it was like, it had only gone up a few times.
1:00:19And the current 12 megapixel camera has been the same
1:00:21for a few generations now.
1:00:22Going from 12 to 48 is a big jump and you don't have to,
1:00:25if they do the pixel bending as described,
1:00:27you don't have to worry about,
1:00:28oh, but now all the pixels are so much smaller, it will suck.
1:00:30They'll just bend them together and it will become
1:00:32like a 12 megapixel camera with even bigger,
1:00:36quote unquote, pixels, because each of those pixels
1:00:38is four of the tinier ones, which turn out to be 28% bigger
1:00:41than the one single one of the other ones.
1:00:43So I am excited about having a bigger camera
1:00:47because I was originally thinking,
1:00:48well, if the iPhone 14 is gonna have a bigger camera bump,
1:00:50I'm just not gonna buy it.
1:00:52I'm just gonna skip it and I'll do a three-year gap
1:00:54instead of a four-year one.
1:00:56Because the periscope camera,
1:00:58that rumor's still out there.
1:00:58They're just like, oh, it's not gonna be in the iPhone 14.
1:01:00Maybe it'll be in the iPhone 15 or 16.
1:01:03I would like a periscope camera.
1:01:04I would like an optical zoom, but more importantly,
1:01:05I would like a flat back to my phone.
1:01:08So the rumors are exciting,
1:01:12but also mildly disappointing 'cause I said last year
1:01:16that the 13 Pro has crossed some kind of a line
1:01:19in terms of the size of the camera,
1:01:21at least some kind of a line for me.
1:01:22Like it's aesthetically,
1:01:24if you look at the back of the camera or the phone,
1:01:27same difference, it doesn't look like a rectangle
1:01:31with a thing in the corner anymore.
1:01:32It's not in the corner anymore.
1:01:34Once you pass the midway point,
1:01:35once you're taking up more than half the width of the phone,
1:01:38you're not tucked into a corner.
1:01:40and it's just not, like they might as well
1:01:42have just made it full width
1:01:43like so many Android phones have done
1:01:44or just chosen a different shape or arrangement
1:01:47because it's like they're trying to stick to the idea
1:01:49that there's a camera in the corner of the phone,
1:01:53but there's not, there's just a giant camera
1:01:54slowly eating the back of all of their phones.
1:01:56And so I wish they'd either embraced that
1:01:58or figure out how to get back to smooth
1:02:00with a periscope camera.
1:02:01But those are the rumors and I'm like,
1:02:04right now it's a battle between being excited
1:02:06by having a 48 megapixel camera
1:02:08I'm being depressed about having a giant wart
1:02:10on the bottom of my phone.
1:02:12- And you had put the Max Tech video on this
1:02:15in the show notes, and sometimes I think
1:02:17their explainers are a little bit rough
1:02:19and kind of cut a bunch of corners,
1:02:21but this one was really, really good,
1:02:22and I really enjoyed it, and it's worth your time.
1:02:25I think it was like 10 minutes or something like that.
1:02:26And they explain exactly why 48 megapixels
1:02:29is potentially nothing but better.
1:02:32Well, with the exception of the bigger bump.
1:02:34Other than that, everything else about it
1:02:35is potentially better, and one of those things
1:02:37like you were saying earlier,
1:02:38like low light performance can actually go up
1:02:40because the net pixel size, once you do this binning,
1:02:44is bigger, just like you were saying.
1:02:45And so what that means is you could have
1:02:48a far more crisp picture in good light
1:02:51and a more understandable, discernible picture in low light.
1:02:56- So less noisy picture in low light,
1:02:58'cause you wouldn't have to crank up the ISO as much.
1:02:59- Yep, that's a better way of putting it, thank you.
1:03:01So this sounds to me, if you can get over the bump,
1:03:04which I don't agree that we've crossed the Rubicon
1:03:07or anything, but I do agree that it's getting
1:03:09kind of ridiculous.
1:03:10If you can put up with the Bump,
1:03:11this sounds like it's going to be a dramatic improvement
1:03:14to the camera and the iPhone,
1:03:15if everything comes to fruition.
1:03:18- Frankly, I mean, the Bump, you know,
1:03:20now that I've had the 13 Pro for, you know,
1:03:23half a year or whatever it's been,
1:03:25the camera Bump does not bother me at all.
1:03:27That is never something that I notice,
1:03:29that is never something that bothers me.
1:03:31- Yeah, same.
1:03:32- What bothers me about this phone is that
1:03:34it is pretty big in the pocket and pretty heavy,
1:03:36and my whole pants journey that I went through last fall.
1:03:39You know what, I'm like halfway through that
1:03:41by having bought my fancy spoke pants,
1:03:44but also it still is noticeable.
1:03:47I do wish that I had a smaller and lighter weight phone,
1:03:52but the camera is really, really good.
1:03:57And so I am glad I didn't go mini this time
1:03:59just for the camera alone,
1:04:00and actually if these rumors hold,
1:04:02it seems like they're gonna be an even bigger difference
1:04:04in specs because the rumors are that possibly
1:04:07that the iPhone 14 non-pro models
1:04:12are going to retain the A15 processor.
1:04:16And that the iPhone 14 Pro only will go to the A,
1:04:21presumably it's called A16,
1:04:22whatever the next processor is.
1:04:24So it looks like there, if this is true,
1:04:27and iPhone rumors tend to be pretty accurate
1:04:29'cause it's just so hard to keep that kind of scale
1:04:31of an operation quiet.
1:04:33But if this is true, then this year there's going to be
1:04:36more differentiation than ever, assuming this big
1:04:4048 megapixel camera is probably also pro only,
1:04:43between the pro models and the non-pro models.
1:04:45And so that'll be interesting to watch,
1:04:47but I have a feeling this is going to very, very quickly
1:04:52make people who are really serious about this kind of stuff
1:04:55jump for the pro instead of whatever other
1:04:59physical advantages might be present on the lower end models.
1:05:02Speaking of differentiation, even within the pro phones,
1:05:05if the 1X camera is 48 megapixels,
1:05:08but they don't really substantially also upgrade
1:05:11the other two cameras, boy, it's gonna be a big fall
1:05:14from switching from the 1X.
1:05:15Like already the 2X you can tell
1:05:16is not quite as good as the 1X,
1:05:18but maybe they'll, you know, they do the thing
1:05:20where the Apple's camera app sort of decides
1:05:23when it's appropriate to use which lens.
1:05:25And it seems like in a lot of scenarios,
1:05:27it would be better to continue to use the 1X
1:05:29and like crop it maybe, than falling off the tour.
1:05:32I don't know what the rumors are for the other two lenses.
1:05:34Maybe they'll be mildly improved as well.
1:05:37- Yeah, 'cause the 3X camera is not very good.
1:05:40It really isn't.
1:05:41- With just this rumor, it suddenly seems like
1:05:44you have an unbalanced camera system,
1:05:45or one of your cameras suddenly got way, way, way better
1:05:48and bigger, and the other two are there too.
1:05:50And as for the product line,
1:05:54I think we talked about this on a past show,
1:05:56like the non-Pro phones having A15 instead.
1:06:01And there's no getting around it.
1:06:02That's a downgrade as far as customers are concerned, right?
1:06:05Because it was really great when a customer could
1:06:07get a plain old iPhone 13,
1:06:08it had the exact same system on a chip as the Pro one, right?
1:06:12And it's not even like you can say,
1:06:15oh, well, when they have the 15,
1:06:16I bet their battery life will be better.
1:06:18'Cause it's not like they're fabbing the 15 on a different,
1:06:19it's just, it's gonna be the A15 as the A15 ever was,
1:06:22fab the same way it always was.
1:06:24So it doesn't suddenly get lower power either.
1:06:27And so that's just, that's not as good
1:06:30is having the 16 and everything.
1:06:32And that's disappointing and there's no way around it.
1:06:34It's not like Apple's gonna pass the savings on to you.
1:06:36The systematic chip is not the most expensive part
1:06:38of those phones.
1:06:39Anyway, on the bright side, the other part of the rumor
1:06:42is that the pro and non-pro lines
1:06:45will all have a full range of sizes.
1:06:47Like there'll be a non-pro big phone,
1:06:48non-pro max essentially.
1:06:50It's not, these names are so confusing.
1:06:52I listened back to episodes of the show
1:06:53and I screwed up so many times.
1:06:54Anyway, there will be like a iPhone 14 and iPhone 14 max
1:06:59and there'll be iPhone 14 Pro and iPhone 14 Pro Max.
1:07:04And the chips and the Macs will be Pro and Max,
1:07:08but there will be no chip and a Mac called Pro Max.
1:07:09Anyway, it's their own stupid fault for doing this.
1:07:13But having a big phone that is not a Pro is such a,
1:07:17I don't know why they waited so long to do it.
1:07:18'Cause sometimes people want a really big phone.
1:07:20They shouldn't be forced to pay
1:07:21for the most expensive phone that Apple makes
1:07:23just because they want a bigger screen, right?
1:07:25So that's the good part of the new rumored arrangement,
1:07:29but I just, you know, I understand why, like, hey,
1:07:33if you're gonna have a pro line, it should have,
1:07:34maybe it should have a bigger advantage
1:07:36over the non-pro line, as opposed to the 13s,
1:07:38where they were, you know, almost identical
1:07:40except for the camera, but it's just not as good
1:07:43as a consumer to get the A15 in the non-pro phone, right?
1:07:46It's just not, so that's kind of a bummer.
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1:09:43(upbeat music)
1:09:46- All right, you wanna do some Ask ATP?
1:09:48- Let's do it.
1:09:49- Let's start tonight with Elijah,
1:09:51who writes, "I have been a long time Canon user,
1:09:55but I've seen the writing on the wall for a while
1:09:56that DSLRs are being replaced by mirrorless cameras.
1:09:59Since I have to buy lenses again anyway
1:10:01to follow this trend, should I stick with Canons
1:10:03or why should I jump to Sony?"
1:10:05Jon, I think you're the most enthusiastic about Sony,
1:10:08although Marco, you're not far behind.
1:10:09So Jon, do you want to start
1:10:10and then Marco take it away after?
1:10:12- I didn't even know that you would need to buy new lenses
1:10:13or that you can't use them.
1:10:14It makes sense, obviously,
1:10:15the distance of the sensor from the front of the lens
1:10:17or whatever, but anyway,
1:10:18I think Canon and Sony are very different.
1:10:21in terms of like, it's like differences in car manufacturers,
1:10:25if you just like, if you, you get used to the way
1:10:28certain car manufacturers do things,
1:10:29whether it's stupid Porsche with their ignition key
1:10:31in the wrong spot or bottom hinged, you know,
1:10:35pedals or, you know, whatever, like,
1:10:38even if it's just how the stocks work
1:10:40or how the cars are priced, like,
1:10:41there are things that are just sort of arbitrary decisions
1:10:44that you just get used to.
1:10:45And if you try a different brand,
1:10:49Those arbitrary decisions,
1:10:51even when they're not actually worse or better,
1:10:53seem foreign to you, and that is very true of cameras.
1:10:56And then it goes from there up to all,
1:10:58even more important things like value judgments,
1:11:00what's important to spend money on, what's not,
1:11:03how big, what's more important, small size,
1:11:06or battery life, or portability, or grippiness in the hand,
1:11:09or how many buttons are there versus knobs versus joysticks
1:11:13and how do they feel.
1:11:15There is such a huge difference between Canon and Sony.
1:11:18I like Sony better, but if you're used to Canon,
1:11:22almost certainly you're gonna like Canon better.
1:11:24Like it's almost impossible to imagine someone
1:11:27who used Canon for years, tries a Sony and goes,
1:11:29"Wow, this is much better."
1:11:30That is not gonna happen.
1:11:31'Cause it is so different.
1:11:33The companies make such different decisions.
1:11:35They couldn't be any more different.
1:11:36Like Sony is so about making the camera body
1:11:39as small as possible.
1:11:41For years, Sony was, first Sony started,
1:11:43they wouldn't even make it like a grip for your hand.
1:11:45And then they put the grip on it
1:11:46and it was just this tiny little grip.
1:11:47and it's like, what are you saving the grip size for?
1:11:51We want a bigger grip so we can grip it better,
1:11:53and Sony was like, okay, how about we make it
1:11:54two millimeters bigger?
1:11:55Three, it's like, what are you doing?
1:11:56It's like the Johnny Ivey, just put a grip
1:11:58that fits in a human hand, we have hands,
1:12:00we have fingers, we need them,
1:12:02and Sony eventually got the clue on that,
1:12:04but it took so many years for Sony to even deign
1:12:06to make the grip a little bit bigger.
1:12:08That is not a problem on Canon cameras,
1:12:10especially the big ones.
1:12:11They put giant grips on them,
1:12:13the giant battery cases on the things,
1:12:15the buttons feel different, the UI feels different,
1:12:17everything about it is different.
1:12:19So I don't think there's anything anyone could say
1:12:21to convince you to use a Sony if you like Canons.
1:12:24If you've been using Canons for years
1:12:25and you think they're too big
1:12:27and you don't like how the buttons work
1:12:30and you hate the UI, then maybe you like the Sony better.
1:12:32But they really are, and so Canon and Nikon,
1:12:36I think, are so much closer than Canon and Sony are.
1:12:39Sony is really sort of--
1:12:40- Don't their zooms go the opposite direction?
1:12:43- It depends.
1:12:45There are lenses for all the different camera systems
1:12:47that go in different ranges.
1:12:48I think even Sony made one with the reverse zoom lens on it.
1:12:51Or maybe I'm thinking of a third party one,
1:12:52but no one can agree on which direction
1:12:54the zooms could go.
1:12:55Or which direction the rings are,
1:12:56is the zoom ring or the manual focus ring closer to you
1:12:59or farther away? - Oh yeah.
1:13:01- It's a little bit of a--
1:13:02- Yeah, it's always varied per lens.
1:13:03- Yeah, but anyway, Canon and Icon are much closer together
1:13:05than either Canon and Icon are from Sony.
1:13:08So try one out in the store, hold it,
1:13:10see what you think of it.
1:13:11If it appeals to you, I endorse it, I really like Sony.
1:13:14it matches my tastes and I do enjoy the small sizes
1:13:17for portability even if the grips are too small.
1:13:19But if you really love Canon,
1:13:21Canon makes mirrorless cameras too, just buy one of those.
1:13:24- I mostly agree.
1:13:25At first, when I first heard this question,
1:13:27I thought I probably shouldn't answer this
1:13:28because I haven't been paying attention
1:13:30to the recent models of any of these things
1:13:32'cause I really haven't been in the camera game.
1:13:34But I think when you're,
1:13:36so Elijah's saying already,
1:13:38they have to buy new lenses no matter what
1:13:42because of the shift from DSLR to mirrorless.
1:13:45So it's just a question of whether to invest
1:13:47in Canon's mirrorless system or Sony's mirrorless system.
1:13:51Also, not mentioned, Nikon's mirrorless system
1:13:53is another option, although I know even less about that.
1:13:55But I think when you're talking about
1:13:58which system to invest in long term,
1:14:01you have to look past whatever the current models
1:14:03of each camera are and look at, in general, over time,
1:14:07what are each of these brands really best at?
1:14:09What areas do they tend to specialize in
1:14:12or prioritize or pay attention to or excel in.
1:14:15So in my experience over, you know,
1:14:19geez, 15 years, whatever it's been,
1:14:22that I've been really into these things,
1:14:24my impression, having tried a lot of Canon stuff,
1:14:28a lot of Sony stuff, and almost nothing by anybody else,
1:14:31so I'm sorry, I really don't know anything about Nikon.
1:14:33(laughs)
1:14:34I've used a handful of times, very small handful of times,
1:14:37but my impression on Nikon seems like
1:14:40it's very similar to Canon,
1:14:41but less popular among pro users.
1:14:42But, you know, 'cause again, just different decisions
1:14:45as John was saying, certain buttons are in different
1:14:46locations, certain things work slightly differently,
1:14:48but you know, generally pretty good.
1:14:50But in general, I think that Canon is better than Sony
1:14:55in what I would call pro workflow and pro ergonomics.
1:15:01So if, you know, as John was saying,
1:15:03things like the battery grip situations,
1:15:06you know, if you want, if you have some kind of pro setup,
1:15:09If you're gonna have like, you know,
1:15:11some coordinated flashes or some of the big L lenses
1:15:16with the big telephoto zooms and the sticks
1:15:18on the side of sports games,
1:15:20or if you're in the market more for something like
1:15:22what used to be like the 1D or 1DS series
1:15:25where you have much more pro abilities,
1:15:27pro sports shootings, stuff like that,
1:15:29I think Canon has always had an edge in that area over Sony
1:15:33and they probably always will.
1:15:35Canon is more likely, even though they had a later start
1:15:37to mirrorless, I think over time,
1:15:39Canon is more likely to have more pro lens options
1:15:43and more specialty lens options.
1:15:45Whereas Sony tends to have things that more kind of hit
1:15:47like the more commonly used lens rolls.
1:15:51Again, I think right now, Sony probably has an advantage
1:15:53just because they're, you know,
1:15:55they've been here a little bit longer,
1:15:56but I think over time, that edge will go back to Canon.
1:15:59Because Canon is generally used by more pros
1:16:01for lots of other reasons.
1:16:02And again, things like battery grips and flash accessories
1:16:06and timer accessories and all sorts of stuff,
1:16:08Canon tends to really nail that stuff.
1:16:10They have a great first party set of things
1:16:13and third party tends to support them very, very well.
1:16:15Where Sony tends to have the advantage
1:16:18is video features and sensor technology
1:16:22and things that are related to those.
1:16:24If what you're looking for is like,
1:16:26I want the camera that is going to be the best
1:16:29in low light that it can possibly be,
1:16:32most of the time that's probably gonna be a Sony.
1:16:35Now Nikon is interesting because a lot of times
1:16:36Nikon uses Sony sensors, I don't know what the current
1:16:38status quo is, sometimes you can get a pretty awesome
1:16:41hybrid approach where you have like Nikon
1:16:43with their like a little bit nicer pro controls
1:16:46with a Sony sensor, that can be very good.
1:16:49There's also other features that go along with this.
1:16:51Things like you know, auto focus technology,
1:16:53even you know, something more fundamental like,
1:16:56how do they render the colors, like do they render colors
1:16:58in a way that you like in their JPEG render
1:17:00and then you can save a bunch of time and not do RAW.
1:17:02Or even if you're using RAW, like how are they,
1:17:04How are they creating the colors in the RAW to start with?
1:17:06There's certain things where the different manufacturers
1:17:09will have their own algorithms for how they
1:17:10make the pictures and that can work with you
1:17:13or against you, depending on your style and your conditions.
1:17:15But generally, Canon is much better usually
1:17:19for things like pro-ergonomics and pro-workflows.
1:17:22And Sony is better for usually the more techy angles
1:17:26of high quality sensors and video features.
1:17:30I don't know anything about video features
1:17:32on these cameras, and so everything I said
1:17:34applies only to photos, and so if you're a video shooter
1:17:37or a heavy video user, frankly,
1:17:40I think you ruin the camera industry, thanks a lot,
1:17:42but I don't know anything about that.
1:17:43- Wow.
1:17:44- Yeah, I think the speed, two things to add.
1:17:47One is the speed thing, that applies to photos as well.
1:17:49In general, Sony is sort of on the forefront
1:17:52of dumping things off the sensor as fast as possible,
1:17:54so you can hold down the shutter for a really long time
1:17:56and take 30 frames per second, right?
1:18:00That kind of goes hand in hand with the sensor tech,
1:18:02but in general, the Sony electronics,
1:18:06sort of CPU, GPU, whatever, image processing engine,
1:18:09they're pretty good at that.
1:18:12And the second thing is on ergonomics,
1:18:14only if what you mean by ergonomics
1:18:17is excluding the idea that you're going to be
1:18:19carrying this thing around a lot,
1:18:20because if portability is anywhere on your list,
1:18:23if you're a nature photographer,
1:18:25you're lugging through and through the woods,
1:18:26obviously the giant lenses that you're gonna lug
1:18:28are the big factor too,
1:18:29but pretty much Sony's ethos is make smaller camera bodies,
1:18:33which is why if you get a battery grip,
1:18:35it's a thing that you can add onto it,
1:18:36unlike the, you know, you can get Canon and Icons
1:18:39that are just built in with the giant battery grip
1:18:40and are the size of your head, right?
1:18:42Every Sony camera is way smaller
1:18:44than you would think it would be for the size of things.
1:18:47And so, depending on what you do with your photography,
1:18:49maybe it doesn't matter 'cause you're in a studio
1:18:51and who cares how big it is,
1:18:52or you're on the sidelines at an NFL game
1:18:54and you've got tons of gear anyway,
1:18:56but if you're doing travel photography
1:18:58or you're traipsing through the wilderness
1:19:01or the jungles or whatever.
1:19:03- Well, get an iPhone at that point.
1:19:04- You may value the fact that Sony does make things,
1:19:09tends to make things smaller and lighter,
1:19:10including their mount is smaller.
1:19:12That's why they have the same mount
1:19:13on their APS-C cameras in their full frame.
1:19:15That was done intentionally to sort of be able
1:19:17to support smaller camera lenses.
1:19:20And if you compare, even we were just talking
1:19:21about like the Sony 50 millimeter 1.2,
1:19:24if you see a picture of that next to the Canon
1:19:26in Nikon 50 millimeter full frame 1.2's,
1:19:29Sony lenses tend to be smaller,
1:19:30they also tend to be lighter.
1:19:32So if that is a factor in your selection,
1:19:36and you can tolerate or grow to like the Sony UI
1:19:40and the Sony sort of the rest of the Sony feature set,
1:19:43that may appeal to you.
1:19:44But yeah, they're so different
1:19:46that I can't imagine somebody who likes it as a customer
1:19:49who can enter an icons seeing a Sony
1:19:51and finding it appealing
1:19:52unless they've been secretly gritting their teeth
1:19:54at just how big their camera is.
1:19:56Ryan Morry writes, "I have an M1 Mac Mini, a 2TB Thunderbolt 3 SSD, and an 8TB USB hard
1:20:04drive.
1:20:05I think I'd like to use the SSD as a cache for the hard drive.
1:20:07While Fusion drives have gone out of fashion, I've never used one, and Apple doesn't ship
1:20:11them anymore, right?
1:20:13It appears possible to set one up manually via some arcane disk util invocations.
1:20:18Is this a good idea?
1:20:19Am I about to shoot myself in the foot?
1:20:21Is there any better way to do this?
1:20:22Should I not want to do this?
1:20:24What even is a Fusion drive?
1:20:25Please advise and or expound.
1:20:27If I understand this right, so Ryan said,
1:20:30I have an M1 Mac Mini, a two terabyte Thunderbolt 3 SSD,
1:20:34which implies to me that it's external
1:20:36and a eight terabyte USB hard drive,
1:20:38which obviously would be external.
1:20:40I personally don't think you want to do
1:20:42a fusion drive anyway,
1:20:43and John I'll let you take it away here in a second,
1:20:45but the idea of doing a fusion drive
1:20:47with two external drives,
1:20:49that seems really even one external drive,
1:20:51that seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
1:20:53But John, what is a fusion drive
1:20:55And why should Ryan definitely not do this?
1:20:58Fusion Drive was a really cool idea.
1:21:01In fact, I even kind of fantasized
1:21:03about this exact idea years before it became a reality.
1:21:06Because it was back when Mark was getting his first 160
1:21:09gigabyte Intel SSD or whatever.
1:21:11The SSDs were so expensive, but they were so awesome.
1:21:14But it's like, but how can I have the benefits of an SSD
1:21:18but fit all my stuff?
1:21:19Because in the beginning, they didn't even make SSDs.
1:21:21They were big enough to fit a reasonable amount of stuff
1:21:23that people had.
1:21:24are all so tiny.
1:21:25And so the idea behind a fusion drive
1:21:29and the fantasy that I was describing is,
1:21:30well what if you just sort of combined
1:21:32a big, cheap spinning disk with an SSD
1:21:35and the operating system handled,
1:21:36trying to keep the files that you access frequently
1:21:38on the SSD, like you didn't have to do anything,
1:21:40it looks like one volume to you
1:21:42and through the magic of the file system,
1:21:43the operating system, everything gets shuffled around,
1:21:45you're already done, you can't do it a second time.
1:21:47- Well the first one-- - It was a half-hearted one.
1:21:49- Yeah, the first one you said FS something.
1:21:51- FS usage, that stands for file system usage,
1:21:54- You got it, I was proud of you for--
1:21:55- I wasn't sure if it counted, but I did a quiet ding.
1:21:58- No, I'm with Marco, that was a ding,
1:22:00and what you just heard moments ago was a dong,
1:22:02and I think that you needed both.
1:22:03- No, no, there's no half-dings,
1:22:05you can't land on a fraction.
1:22:06- All right. (laughs)
1:22:08Integral dings only.
1:22:09- Anyway, the Fusion Drive was a way to do that.
1:22:14It was a, you know, you used core storage,
1:22:16it was technology Apple introduced,
1:22:17sort of abstracts away all these details,
1:22:19and lo and behold, Apple would sell you a computer
1:22:20with a small SSD and a big, spinning hard drive,
1:22:23but from your perspective, it would look like one drive
1:22:25that is not as fast as an SSD,
1:22:27but not as slow as a spinning disk either.
1:22:29Cool idea, but the time of the Fusion Drive
1:22:33has more or less come and gone
1:22:35because today you can find pretty economical SSDs
1:22:39that are big enough to hold all your stuff.
1:22:42Now, maybe you're not gonna find, you know,
1:22:4410 terabyte SSD because you've got an eight terabyte
1:22:47spinning disk and a two terabyte SSD
1:22:49and you wanna have a 10 terabyte total
1:22:51that's faster than that.
1:22:52I understand where you're coming from,
1:22:54but Fusion Drive, as you've noted,
1:22:57you can probably pull this off with disk util,
1:23:00but it's not really an area of active interest,
1:23:02let's say, for Apple.
1:23:04And it's not a good idea to base something as important
1:23:08as your file system,
1:23:09especially if this is your boot disk or something,
1:23:11on a technology that Apple
1:23:12does not seem interested in anymore.
1:23:14So I think you could probably pull it off.
1:23:17I think it would work, but I personally wouldn't do it.
1:23:20I mean, these are two big drives you're talking about.
1:23:22you got two terabyte SSD and eight terabyte hard drive,
1:23:25you probably know which things need to be in the SSD
1:23:27and which don't.
1:23:28Boot from the SSD, use most things from the SSD,
1:23:30and then put the big files with the large files
1:23:33where you can do large sequential reads,
1:23:34put them on the eight terabyte spinning disk.
1:23:36And if you can't figure out how to divide your stuff up
1:23:39and you'd rather just the drive do it for you,
1:23:42like, I mean, you can try it.
1:23:44It would be a cool conversation piece for nerds
1:23:47if they ever visit your house,
1:23:48but boy, if something goes wrong with that drive
1:23:50or one of them becomes unmanageable,
1:23:51other one is still mounted, I'm not sure the disk utility in its current state would be
1:23:55able to figure out how to help you.
1:23:57Yeah, that's why I think doing it with external seems brave, to say the least.
1:24:02All right, and then finally, well, no, actually, I think we're going to go for a bonus.
1:24:05So nearly finally, Matt Chenander writes, "Despite my better judgment, I'm exploring
1:24:09the purchase of a Pro Display XDR for my desk at home, which now houses a Mac Studio.
1:24:14I work from home full-time and have an employer-supplied 14-inch MacBook Pro that I also need to connect
1:24:18to the monitor on my desk.
1:24:20The Dell monitor I have currently works great for this because it supports multiple inputs
1:24:23that I can easily switch between.
1:24:25This convenience would of course be lost with the XDR single input.
1:24:28Is there any device out there that would allow me to not have to plug or unplug from the
1:24:33back of the XDR every time I need to switch between machines?
1:24:36The first thing that comes to mind is something like an HDMI switcher or a KVM switch, but
1:24:39instead for Thunderbolt 3 or 4.
1:24:41From the research I've done, I don't think these exist, but I would be happy to be wrong.
1:24:44So I don't understand, I don't think, why we're unplugging from the back of the XDR.
1:24:50Why wouldn't you just unplug the other end of that same cable?
1:24:53So there's a cable coming from the XDR to one computer, you unplug it from, let's say
1:24:58it's going into the studio, you unplug it from the studio and plug it into the MacBook,
1:25:01and then reverse that later.
1:25:03I think I'm kind of missing the problem here.
1:25:05No, I think they don't want to do any unplugging.
1:25:07Well, you're going to have to do some sort of unplugging.
1:25:10Oh, a KVM would do it for you, a switch.
1:25:12Well sure, but does that exist?
1:25:13Because I don't think it does.
1:25:14- That's the question.
1:25:15- I don't think it exists for Thunderbolt 3/4 speeds.
1:25:20Certainly you could get various switches
1:25:21for simpler protocols, things like USB.
1:25:25I'm sure you can get a switch for USB
1:25:26maybe up to like USB 3 point something speeds,
1:25:28but I don't think anything like that exists for Thunderbolt
1:25:31and this requires Thunderbolt.
1:25:32Unplugging the cable from the computer end
1:25:34and plugging it into the different computer,
1:25:35that's gonna be, I think, not only your only option,
1:25:38but I think it's not that bad of an option.
1:25:40Obviously it would be better if it could be automated
1:25:43in some way and wouldn't involve physically wearing out
1:25:45the connector on a very expensive cable.
1:25:47But the other thing is to know that,
1:25:49if in case this helps you decide,
1:25:53the XDR appears to work totally fine
1:25:56with almost every modern Thunderbolt hub that's out there,
1:25:59like almost every modern Thunderbolt 3/4 hub from OWC
1:26:03or from CalDigit or any of the other companies
1:26:07that are making the modern ones with these modern chipsets,
1:26:09the XDR works totally fine through those.
1:26:11And so if that helps you make your decision a little bit more
1:26:13easily, that you can unplug and plug everything all at once
1:26:17through one cable, that might make this a little bit easier
1:26:20to swallow.
1:26:21I was faced with a similar situation
1:26:23when I had my work laptop here, and I wanted
1:26:25to hook that up to the XDR.
1:26:27And I also had that same feeling that Mark was just saying,
1:26:30I know how much the cable that's connected to my XDR costs.
1:26:33And I was like, am I going to do this every day,
1:26:36possibly multiple times a day?
1:26:37Am I really going to plug and unplug this thing?
1:26:39And by the way, you don't even have to use that cable.
1:26:41You can use any Thunderbolt 4 cable, and it's fine.
1:26:43I know, but you have to plug it into the same spot in the XDR,
1:26:46right?
1:26:46Yes.
1:26:47The XDR has one input port.
1:26:48But you can use any cable.
1:26:50Right, so you'd have to get the expensive cable out of there.
1:26:53The expensive cable is the one that reaches my Mac,
1:26:56because it's over there.
1:26:57It's a tower computer.
1:26:58It's a little bit farther away.
1:26:59Anyway, I didn't want to plug and unplug.
1:27:00The good thing about the USB-C type connector, which
1:27:04is the same as the Thunderbolt type connector,
1:27:06is that the springy bits are inside the cable.
1:27:09So springy bits inside your expensive monitor
1:27:12and your expensive Mac Pro don't wear out.
1:27:13The ones in the cable wear out,
1:27:14but in this case the cable is also expensive,
1:27:16so it's kinda crappy.
1:27:17So I was faced with this decision.
1:27:18I did unplug and unplug a few times,
1:27:20but sometimes also what I would consider doing,
1:27:23which was difficult because I couldn't be on the VPN
1:27:25when I did this, but you can use like,
1:27:27you know, screen sharing essentially.
1:27:29- I was gonna say that, yeah.
1:27:30- To, and it sounds like well these two things
1:27:32are right next to each other.
1:27:33You're telling me I'm gonna do,
1:27:34like isn't it gonna be laggy over the network
1:27:36or are there gonna be compression artifacts?
1:27:38If you have both computers on your desk,
1:27:40you can connect them to ethernet.
1:27:42You can connect them to the same ethernet switch.
1:27:45And if you use an efficient sort of VPN, not a VPN,
1:27:50a VNC or Apple remote desktop,
1:27:52there's lots of different choices that you can use here.
1:27:55It's surprisingly tolerable if what you're doing
1:28:00is like typing source code, right?
1:28:02It's not, there is lag.
1:28:04It doesn't seem exactly the same,
1:28:06But it does give you that sort of software switch KVM type feeling.
1:28:10You know, universal control is another option, right?
1:28:13You know, have I don't know how you'd pull this off.
1:28:16Universal control and sidecar may give you some other way to get at the same thing
1:28:19to sort of a software only solution.
1:28:21It seems like it will be too laggy.
1:28:23I can't possibly do that, but it still beats plug in unplugging.
1:28:26And I agree there.
1:28:27It would be great if there was some kind of thunderbolts,
1:28:30you know, KVM type solution.
1:28:32But that is I don't know if that's technically possible.
1:28:34And I've never heard of such a thing existing.
1:28:37- Daniel Berkvitz writes, "The Cook Doctrine says
1:28:40"that Apple needs to control crucial technology.
1:28:43"How do you think that making your own cellular modem
1:28:45"fits into this?
1:28:46"How will Apple be able to differentiate using a modem?
1:28:48"Sure, maybe they can make it a bit more stable,
1:28:50"more integrated, cheaper, faster, and smaller,
1:28:52"but do you see any obvious way that making your own modem
1:28:54"would truly help to differentiate the Apple products
1:28:56"for the end user?"
1:28:58And one of you has been kind enough to put
1:28:59the Cook Doctrine into the show notes, which I will now read,
1:29:02"We believe that we need to own and control
1:29:03the primary technologies behind the products we make and participate only in markets where
1:29:07we can make a significant contribution."
1:29:09It was important to put the quote in there.
1:29:12There's links to the ASIMCO page that lists the larger context of this statement.
1:29:19This bit of the Cook Doctrine, it's a single sentence here.
1:29:22The first part of the sentence potentially contradicts the second part if you read it.
1:29:27"Own and control all the primary technologies behind the products we make."
1:29:30That's the sort of thing that we cite all the time.
1:29:33Why would Apple do this?
1:29:34Well, is it a super important part of the product?
1:29:36They want to own and control it.
1:29:38And so that's why, why should Apple make its own system on chips?
1:29:42Why should they make their own processor for their Macs?
1:29:46It's a primary technology behind the products.
1:29:47They make the one and control it, now they do.
1:29:50But then the second part is participate only in markets where you can make a significant
1:29:53contribution.
1:29:55It may be that you need to own and control a primary technology even if you can't make
1:30:02a significant contribution.
1:30:03And I think cellular modems are one of those cases.
1:30:06Where I don't really think Apple is looking to make a significant contribution, but that
1:30:10technology is so important to their most important product, the phone, and they've already been
1:30:15like screwed over in various ways fighting with Qualcomm about it, that it's so obvious
1:30:21that they need to own and control this primary technology, even though probably they can't
1:30:27make a significant contribution.
1:30:28'cause all they're hoping to do is can we get a cell modem
1:30:31that works as well as the Qualcomm ones have in the past?
1:30:33Like I don't think this is an area of active innovation.
1:30:36It's not like they're fabbing them.
1:30:37TSMT is gonna be fabbing them anyway, right?
1:30:40Maybe they make it smaller power.
1:30:41Maybe they can integrate it into the SOC.
1:30:43There are possibilities there, but even if there weren't,
1:30:45even if it's just like,
1:30:46just so we don't have to deal with Qualcomm anymore
1:30:48'cause we hate them and they're always trying to screw us
1:30:51and they have us over a barrel
1:30:53because without those Qualcomm chips,
1:30:54there's not a lot of other manufacturers ago
1:30:56they'd use Intel modems in one of their phones
1:30:57and the Intel ones maybe weren't as good.
1:31:00They bought the company,
1:31:01they bought Intel's cell modem division,
1:31:02so now they're handling that, right?
1:31:04And I think the reason people cite the first part is,
1:31:07the first part trumps the second part.
1:31:08When there's a conflict, the first part wins.
1:31:11And so, yeah, that's the answer.
1:31:13That's why they have to make the remotems,
1:31:15because it is an application of the first part
1:31:18of the sentence, which is
1:31:19owning controlled primary technologies,
1:31:20even if the second part isn't true.
1:31:22- Yeah, I would say too,
1:31:24I think the possible improvements they could make
1:31:28to a cell modem might be significant.
1:31:30You know, you look at something like a CPU.
1:31:33Maybe five or 10 years ago, it seemed like CPUs
1:31:35were kind of a solved problem, right?
1:31:37I mean, you know, just a matter of iterating on,
1:31:40you know, just process technology
1:31:41and the more physical side of things.
1:31:44But when Apple jumped into the CPU game,
1:31:46they really showed like, by applying both good talent
1:31:50and also just specialization,
1:31:52specially designing the CPUs for exactly what their platforms
1:31:57and their products needed and nothing more.
1:32:00Really optimizing for their stuff and their needs
1:32:02and optimizing the software stack for their processor
1:32:05and this wonderful cycle we have now.
1:32:08They actually did make pretty significant contributions
1:32:10to that field.
1:32:12And a cell modem, I don't know much about cell modems,
1:32:14but I know that it's non-trivial.
1:32:16I know that it is not just like a sound chip.
1:32:19It's a pretty significantly complex chip,
1:32:24and it uses an untrivial amount of power,
1:32:26takes an untrivial amount of space,
1:32:28and so if they enter that market,
1:32:31and if they, as Johnson mentioned,
1:32:33they could possibly integrate it into the SOC,
1:32:35which frankly seems logical to me,
1:32:37I don't know, again, know nothing about this,
1:32:40maybe it makes no sense from a physical point of view.
1:32:43- They've got some radio stuff that make that tricky,
1:32:45but I just mentioned that as there are integration
1:32:47opportunities to do things that Qualcomm would never do
1:32:51because now Apple has the, they did it with the M,
1:32:54what was it, the M7, remember the motion?
1:32:56- Yeah, yeah. - That used to be
1:32:56a separate chip, that got sucked into the SoC real quick
1:32:58and I wouldn't even talk about it.
1:33:00- Yeah, but anyway, so cell modems are very complicated,
1:33:04they're very processor intensive,
1:33:06they're physically very complicated,
1:33:08all the radio stuff and everything, they're a big deal
1:33:11and they're such a big part of the phone
1:33:15in terms of its total technical complexity,
1:33:19its total power budget,
1:33:20possibly even its total heat consumption.
1:33:22They're a big deal, and so I think Apple
1:33:26could make a good contribution to that area
1:33:29in the same way they contributed to processors.
1:33:33And I think in something like a phone,
1:33:35that actually matters quite a bit.
1:33:36And so not only do they think they are doing this,
1:33:41but I think it's a good idea for them to do this.
1:33:43And I think once they do it,
1:33:45we're gonna look back a few years later
1:33:47and think like why didn't they do it sooner,
1:33:49or it's gonna be so obvious we're just gonna forget.
1:33:52Like they're gonna announce one year,
1:33:53oh now we have the built,
1:33:54they probably won't even announce it,
1:33:55but at some point we'll have the built-in cell modem,
1:33:58and literally like the next year,
1:34:00no one will even talk about it anymore.
1:34:02Like it'll just be, of course it's Apple's cell modem
1:34:04built into the A24 or whatever.
1:34:07It's just gonna be a thing that's there.
1:34:09- And the other context,
1:34:11the sort of invisible context here,
1:34:12is these two clauses of the sentence
1:34:14are not talking about the same thing.
1:34:16The first part is about technologies,
1:34:18and the second part is when Cook says,
1:34:20participate only in markets, he's talking about,
1:34:23what products do you make?
1:34:24Do you make a printer?
1:34:25Do you make a car?
1:34:26Do you make a laptop?
1:34:27Do you make a phone?
1:34:28That's what participate only in markets.
1:34:31Apple doesn't participate in the market for making CPUs,
1:34:34because they just make their own CPUs.
1:34:35They don't give them to anybody else.
1:34:37It still applies.
1:34:38Everything we still said still applies,
1:34:39but I think the context is mostly
1:34:41talking about like, you know, why do you decide
1:34:43to make a cell phone?
1:34:45Why did you decide to make a TV puck or whatever?
1:34:49Like in all those cases, in theory, Apple can explain
1:34:51like what we thought we could make a significant
1:34:52contribution to the market for, you know,
1:34:55selling songs over the internet or the market
1:34:58for cell phones or whatever.
1:34:59And sometimes Apple's obviously right.
1:35:01I think they have made a significant contribution
1:35:02to the cell phone market.
1:35:04I think that's inarguable.
1:35:05Have they made a significant contribution
1:35:06to the TV connected puck market?
1:35:08Meh.
1:35:09You know, so this, again, this is,
1:35:12the larger context of this is kind of a manifesto.
1:35:13I think it was in like an earnings call
1:35:15or something similar to that.
1:35:16So context definitely matters here.
1:35:18But for the technology thing, like, you know,
1:35:21what was that first chip, the A4?
1:35:23They basically worked on it for a decade
1:35:25before they blew away the entire industry, right?
1:35:27- The A4 was the first chip they branded,
1:35:29but they weren't really designing the guts of it,
1:35:31I think, until later.
1:35:33- I think they had a significant, maybe the A7.
1:35:35- I think the A6, yeah.
1:35:37Anyway, the point is, when Apple starts down this road,
1:35:41they're not saying, we're gonna dominate,
1:35:45but they're like, it's so important as a primary technology
1:35:47that we have to do this.
1:35:48And then once they have to do it,
1:35:49of course they're going to be able to do it
1:35:52in a way that is less annoying to them.
1:35:54Because every third-party thing they have to integrate
1:35:56into an iPhone is surely a headache,
1:35:57because they don't get to say what Qualcomm makes.
1:36:00Qualcomm makes what they make,
1:36:01and it's probably some significant portion
1:36:03of their phone manufacturing is designing
1:36:06around the third party pieces that they have no control over.
1:36:08They can ask for what they want,
1:36:10they can suggest changes or whatever,
1:36:11but in the end, if Qualcomm makes a 5G chip
1:36:13that uses more power than Apple would like,
1:36:16what are you gonna do, not have 5G?
1:36:18Apple didn't have 5G for a long time
1:36:19when they eventually bit the bullet.
1:36:205G hurt their battery life
1:36:22in the first generation of that phone,
1:36:23and how much of their headache for building that phone,
1:36:26whichever one it was, was building the guts
1:36:28around the Qualcomm chip that they can't change, right?
1:36:32And so, even if it's just simply a drop-in replacement,
1:36:36even if they never do integrate into the SOC,
1:36:38at the very least, Apple can make exactly the 5G
1:36:41or whatever chip that it wants,
1:36:43according to its specification on its timeline,
1:36:45with its sweetheart deals with TSMC
1:36:47for their best manufacturing process
1:36:49and all the other stuff.
1:36:51And so that's why I think in the end,
1:36:52we will all be very glad, assuming Apple pulls it off,
1:36:55when they do this, because it will have the same benefit
1:36:57as whenever Apple takes over any sort of technology
1:37:00component that goes into their things.
1:37:01They've shown that it is a huge advantage
1:37:04to be able to do only what Apple needs.
1:37:07And because they do not participate in the wider market,
1:37:09they don't need to sell their cell phone chips to anyone.
1:37:11They're not going to sell them to anyone, I imagine.
1:37:13They don't sell their Apple Silicon things to anybody else.
1:37:16They just have to make it good enough for Apple,
1:37:18and they just have to sell enough of the things
1:37:19to make up for it.
1:37:21And I think cell modems,
1:37:23they're already in enough Apple products that is,
1:37:26even if it was just in the iPhone, it would be enough.
1:37:28So I think it's gonna happen,
1:37:29and assuming they don't blow it,
1:37:31it's gonna be good for everybody, except maybe Qualcomm.
1:37:33- Real time follow up, the Apple A6 is said to have
1:37:37a 1.3 gigahertz custom Apple designed ARM 7A
1:37:40architecture based dual-cord CPU called Swift,
1:37:43rather than a licensed CPU from ARM
1:37:46like in the previous designs.
1:37:47- Yep, gotta reuse those names.
1:37:50- A6.
1:37:50- Okay, anyway.
1:37:52Alright, thanks to our sponsors this week,
1:37:55Squarespace, Trade Coffee, and Linode.
1:37:58And thanks to our members who support us directly.
1:38:00You can join atp.fm/join.
1:38:03We'll talk to you next week.
1:38:05Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin
1:38:12'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
1:38:17John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him
1:38:23'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
1:38:28And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm
1:38:33And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them
1:38:38@C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
1:38:43So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
1:38:47Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C
1:38:52U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A
1:38:55It's accidental (It's accidental)
1:38:58♪ They didn't mean to ♪
1:39:01♪ Accidental ♪
1:39:02♪ Accidental ♪
1:39:03♪ Tech broadcast ♪
1:39:05♪ So long ♪
1:39:08- You know, the grand tradition of broadcasting
1:39:11during large sporting events,
1:39:13I am sad to report that North Carolina
1:39:15is losing to Duke by two points,
1:39:17and it's almost half time.
1:39:18- I love that I don't even know
1:39:19what sport you're talking about right now.
1:39:20Like, I'm pretty sure it's not football season.
1:39:22- Nope.
1:39:23- Maybe basketball?
1:39:25Is it basketball? - It is.
1:39:26It's March Madness, baby.
1:39:27Well, now we're in April, but it's March Madness.
1:39:28- That's Mark Madison's about basketball?
1:39:30- Yes, oh my God, Marco.
1:39:31Anyway, as one is required to do,
1:39:35I would very much like to see Duke lose,
1:39:37and so far it's not sounding like it's happening.
1:39:39- So I have a bone to pick with Mr. Siracusa.
1:39:43Last episode, when he did his amazing reveal
1:39:46of his new job status of not having one,
1:39:49he made us try to guess what he was gonna say,
1:39:55and we guessed Freezer and TV,
1:39:58and Merlin guessed in the first try in Rectifs.
1:40:01Well, it was not a fair comparison
1:40:04because on that Rectifs episode, earlier in the episode,
1:40:08you had already discussed the Freezer and the TV.
1:40:12- That's true.
1:40:13- We eliminated the two most common choices.
1:40:15- Yes, those topics were ruled out.
1:40:18- I don't, well, he could've guessed Toe,
1:40:21I don't think that--
1:40:22- You also, no, that was also ruled out.
1:40:24- Yeah, it was.
1:40:24- He was always also ruled out earlier.
1:40:26So like the big like things like,
1:40:28whoa, what might John want to talk about?
1:40:30They were all ruled out.
1:40:31- Those aren't mystery topics.
1:40:32Those all would have been written into the document.
1:40:35Like I don't think he would ever guess something
1:40:36that would have been written into the document.
1:40:37- We don't know that.
1:40:38And Marco's right.
1:40:39It didn't cross my mind until Marco said something,
1:40:41but you're exactly right.
1:40:42- Top fake excuses.
1:40:43He was just in the right mindset and you two weren't.
1:40:46It's fine.
1:40:47- No, it was not a level playing field.
1:40:49- I mean, if you want to be fair,
1:40:51we'd recently had questions very close to this topic
1:40:54on recent ATP episodes that you had heard me answer,
1:40:57which is how Alex Cox said that they figured out
1:40:59that something was up, so all I'm saying is, you know.
1:41:01- I mean, look, in your defense,
1:41:04I would probably still not have guessed correctly.
1:41:06However-- - Same.
1:41:08- However, it was on a level playing field
1:41:10because you had already ruled out
1:41:11all of the big hit possible topics,
1:41:13including the two we guessed, earlier in the episode.
1:41:15- I had, they hadn't been ruled out,
1:41:18and there were so many other things
1:41:19that could have been guessed.
1:41:20Those wouldn't have been in the running for rectives
1:41:22because those are always written into the notes.
1:41:24Those are never mysterious.
1:41:25So it would be so stupid to make that,
1:41:27oh, I'm gonna have a mysterious thing
1:41:28I'm not gonna tell you about, you know,
1:41:30Tow Freezer, you know, TV show, whatever.
1:41:33(laughing)
1:41:35Just take the loss.
1:41:37And the best thing is, making him guess
1:41:40was a totally spur of the moment thing.
1:41:41'Cause I just, I had that feeling.
1:41:43It's like they'll, they get that vibe of like,
1:41:45I feel like we're on the right wavelength here
1:41:47that if I just ask this question, it'll pop out.
1:41:49It's like that game where you try to make people
1:41:51will guess a vegetable and you show them a little card
1:41:53about what they're gonna guess.
1:41:54You two guess a vegetable.
1:41:55- Asparagus.
1:41:56- Marco. - Gotta guess a vegetable,
1:41:59Casey.
1:42:00- He doesn't know of any.
1:42:01Macaroni and cheese.
1:42:02- Oh, stop.
1:42:04(laughing)
1:42:04- Cheese and vegetable?
1:42:05- French fries?
1:42:06Our French friends.
1:42:07- Velveeta, Velveeta.
1:42:09- Guess a vegetable, Casey.
1:42:10- Carrot.
1:42:11- Thank you, that's what everyone says,
1:42:12and I would hold it with a piece of paper that says carrot,
1:42:13and you'd be like, "And Marco just said asparagus
1:42:16"to be Marco."
1:42:16(laughing)
1:42:18Because he likes smelly pee.
1:42:20- I don't even like asparagus that much.
1:42:21- John, do you have that gene?
1:42:22Do you have smelly pee? - I do,
1:42:23and I do not like it.
1:42:24I like the taste of asparagus, I do not like the pee smell,
1:42:27so I avoid it just for the pee situation.
1:42:29- Yeah, it's not worth it, I agree.
1:42:30Like, it tastes fine, like I don't love it.
1:42:33But yeah, it's not worth the side effects.
1:42:34- Marco, happy anniversary.
1:42:36- Uh-oh, uh, of? (laughing)
1:42:39- Did you have to renew an SSL certificate?
1:42:41What does this mean?
1:42:41- Yeah, what did I fail to do? (laughing)
1:42:45- Happy ninth anniversary, Marco.
1:42:48- Of the show?
1:42:49- No. - No.
1:42:50- Well, hmm, I'm really blanking here.
1:42:53- How old is my child?
1:42:56Quick, no, he's 10.
1:42:57(laughing)
1:42:58- Yeah, almost, not quite.
1:42:59- That's not an anniversary.
1:43:00Been married for more than nine years.
1:43:03- You really don't know, this makes me a little bit sad.
1:43:05Not in like a you're in trouble way,
1:43:07just it makes me a little bit sad way.
1:43:08- I'm totally in trouble.
1:43:09Is this neutral?
1:43:10- No, no, no, no.
1:43:11Well, you're getting warmer, but no, not neutral.
1:43:13- Oh, is this our Munich trip?
1:43:15- Yes, specifically this is the day you bought your M5
1:43:18or really received your M5.
1:43:19- Oh yeah.
1:43:20- Nine years ago today.
1:43:22- Oh man, that was, so yeah, neutral was pretty close.
1:43:25- Do you still have that picture on the wall?
1:43:26You're in the room with it, would it have it?
1:43:28Is it still on the wall?
1:43:29- No, it's in the closet with some other, like, you know.
1:43:32- Oh, that's so sad.
1:43:33- That is sad.
1:43:34- Well, 'cause the area that it was hanging,
1:43:35I covered up with acoustic foam on the wall.
1:43:37(laughing)
1:43:38- I thought it would've graduated to the beach house.
1:43:41- What does the beach house have anything to do with cars?
1:43:43It's a car-free island.
1:43:44- No, but it's just a fond memory.
1:43:46You have pictures of fond memories.
1:43:48- Yeah, no, but I have other ones.
1:43:50I have a picture on the wall of Triana Stasio
1:43:53playing a guitar with rainbow lines coming out of it.
1:43:56That's my beach wall art.
1:43:59- You remember when the sound hit this acoustic foam
1:44:01and didn't bounce back as much?
1:44:02Those were good times.
1:44:04(laughing)
1:44:06- For the record on my wall, and has been for years,
1:44:09is a picture of Marco and Underscore and me
1:44:12in front of the BMW Performance Driving School sign
1:44:15from South Carolina, which was also almost nine years ago.
1:44:18That was the same year.
1:44:19And that's been on my wall in the office for years now.
1:44:23Just letting you know where you stand in my book,
1:44:24even though I don't apparently stand at the same stock.
1:44:27- More importantly, the poor M5.
1:44:29- I know, right?
1:44:30- That was a good car.
1:44:31- Sad times.
1:44:31It was a great car.
1:44:33I feel like we should do a quick thank you to the members,
1:44:37and this is non-sarcastic, genuinely.
1:44:40There have been a bunch of new members
1:44:42that have signed up over the last,
1:44:44actually I was gonna say week,
1:44:45but it's only been a couple of days
1:44:46since we recorded last.
1:44:48And that is extremely kind of all of you.
1:44:50I've been mostly amused when people have written in
1:44:53and said, "Yeah, this had nothing to do with John,
1:44:55"it had nothing to do with Marco and Casey,
1:44:57"this is all for John."
1:44:57So hey, you're welcome, John.
1:44:59So thanks, but thanks.
1:45:03But no, all kidding aside,
1:45:05it's been wonderful to see the messages of support
1:45:08just that I've seen,
1:45:09and I can only imagine how John feels.
1:45:11But it's been wonderful to see the message of support,
1:45:13It's been wonderful to see some of you actually
1:45:16financially support, which is going above and beyond.
1:45:18And on behalf of all three of us, thank you for that.
1:45:22We really do appreciate it.
1:45:24And I will say that we are working on merchandise.
1:45:26We are actively working on merchandise.
1:45:27You'll hear more about that sooner than you think.
1:45:30John, how is, how is, was this full week number one?
1:45:34Is that right?
1:45:35This is the conclusion of week number one of no work?
1:45:38- Maybe, yeah, sounds about right.
1:45:40- My timeline is already all out of whack.
1:45:41- So I do have one specific question.
1:45:43So you mentioned at the end of your blog post
1:45:45that you're not looking forward to having to tell people,
1:45:47like having to explain to your job
1:45:49that you're now a full-time podcaster basically.
1:45:52Has that come up yet?
1:45:53Have you actually had to tell anybody that
1:45:54and how did it go?
1:45:55'Cause I can tell you one thing,
1:45:56from my experience that is always kind of awkward.
1:45:59- It is super awkward.
1:46:00- I don't interact with people, although I am interacting.
1:46:03(laughing)
1:46:05I am interacting with people for business purposes,
1:46:09like talking to my accountant who's also Casey's accountant
1:46:13for tax stuff, right?
1:46:15And had to, you know, just preemptively fill in
1:46:17for next year's taxes and like, you know,
1:46:19just estimated taxes are pain in the butt.
1:46:21So I've communicated that,
1:46:22but that's mostly communicated as a negative.
1:46:24Like, oh, you remember that job I have?
1:46:25Well, I don't anymore.
1:46:26(laughing)
1:46:28And so that may be important
1:46:29for next year's taxes or whatever,
1:46:31but yeah, it hasn't come up for any person.
1:46:33I don't know, I'll probably be okay.
1:46:35Like, you know what I used to say before?
1:46:37Like it wasn't much better before really,
1:46:39'cause, and I realized this recently
1:46:40because it was like, what, a month ago or something?
1:46:42I was out for like, I don't remember.
1:46:43I had occasion to see a person
1:46:46who asked me a question about my life,
1:46:47and I was like, "Oh, what do you do for a living?"
1:46:49Oh, I know, I think it was when I was renewing
1:46:51my life insurance, I don't remember.
1:46:53Anyway, and for years now, I haven't known what to say
1:46:58about what do you do, and I just slipped into this thing
1:47:01where I feel bad 'cause I wanna give people a direct answer,
1:47:05but eventually I just started saying
1:47:06kind of like Marco's old hat that he can't wear anymore.
1:47:08I would just say computers.
1:47:11(laughing)
1:47:12And that usually made people not want to ask
1:47:14a follow-up question, partly because of how
1:47:16I would say it or whatever, but it's like,
1:47:19I would just say computers, or sometimes
1:47:21the longer version would be I do stuff with computers.
1:47:24That's all they need to know.
1:47:25They're not actually interested.
1:47:26They're like, oh, I guess, fine.
1:47:28There aren't any follow-up questions.
1:47:31If they are actually a computer nerd,
1:47:33they'll be able to tell that by their follow-up question,
1:47:35then I can tell them more,
1:47:36but people aren't that interested.
1:47:37So they're just, I just stuff for computers.
1:47:39I used to say I'm a programmer, but nowadays I'm like,
1:47:41they'd be like, do you program things,
1:47:42like you know, things on the radio or something?
1:47:45- Oh, nobody thinks that, no, you can say programmer.
1:47:46Everyone knows it's computers, like that's--
1:47:49- But that's what I would say.
1:47:50Like I would put, like occupation, programmer, right?
1:47:53'Cause all those stupid fill-in things,
1:47:54I don't care what they think.
1:47:55If they think programmer means like something else,
1:47:57then that's fine, but I would just say computers.
1:47:59And now I can't really say computers or programmer anymore.
1:48:02I mean, I can if people don't care,
1:48:04because podcasting is done through computers as well,
1:48:06and it kind of fits, but I guess I'll let you know
1:48:09the first time I have to say podcaster,
1:48:11but it has not come up yet,
1:48:12and I don't expect it to come up for a while,
1:48:14because in general, people don't ask,
1:48:16like, I don't talk to strangers.
1:48:19- Yeah, they spot you from across the room,
1:48:21and they're like, that man looks like he wants
1:48:23to talk to strangers about his job.
1:48:25- No, they say that man looks like he does computers.
1:48:27(laughing)
1:48:28As soon as you ask the question, Marco,
1:48:30a certain somebody that John lives with says,
1:48:32and I quote, he doesn't leave the house.
1:48:35- That's true. (laughs)
1:48:36- I think that might have answered the question.
1:48:38- Haven't gotten COVID yet, woo!
1:48:40That you know of.
1:48:41- That's the thing that I know of.
1:48:42- That's the same in our house.
1:48:43And as a matter of fact,
1:48:45there's a cough going through most of the house.
1:48:47And on precaution,
1:48:48Aaron took a test earlier today, an at-home test.
1:48:50And it was big, fat, negatory,
1:48:52but you never know these days.
1:48:53- Yeah, unfortunately the home rapid test negative results
1:48:56simply mean you might not have it.
1:48:58- I know, I know.
1:48:59John, how was your first week though?
1:49:00What did you do?
1:49:01I guess really, since I spoke to you two days ago,
1:49:04But have you had any good relaxation time?
1:49:06Are you already doing either self-assigned
1:49:08or Tina assigned honey do's?
1:49:10What have we been up to?
1:49:11- I mean, I did spend a lot of time, you know,
1:49:15reading and trying to acknowledge/reply
1:49:18to all the nice congratulations.
1:49:20Lots of people have been tweeting at me.
1:49:22Some people sent me some nice emails.
1:49:24You know, I appreciate every kind word
1:49:26that everyone has sent.
1:49:28I've tried to reply when I could.
1:49:29I've also tried, like, on Twitter,
1:49:31it's hard to know what to do because, honestly,
1:49:32tons of people have been tweeting at me and I want to,
1:49:36my practice has been for years,
1:49:38for years and years and years,
1:49:39which probably means in the internet it's out of date
1:49:41and I agree that it probably is.
1:49:43My way of acknowledging that I have seen your thing
1:49:45and appreciate it but do not have the ability
1:49:48to send you an individualized reply is to like it.
1:49:51- Same, yeah. - To fave it, to heart it,
1:49:53whatever the hell it's called.
1:49:55But a couple years ago,
1:49:56Twitter changed its official client to do this weird thing
1:49:58where if you follow somebody,
1:50:00somehow you get injected into your timeline stuff that they fave
1:50:04Which doesn't make any sense to me. I apologize
1:50:07I've been apologize for it on the show before I've like because I sometimes fave like whatever things as a form of
1:50:11Bookmarking because third-party clients can't do bookmarking because Twitter is crappy with their API and I still use their break line
1:50:17But anyway, I will save things just to remind myself of them later
1:50:21So it's not you know, our teas and retweets are not an endorsement faves are not an endorsement
1:50:25But that is a dated notion because if I favorite it shows up in someone else's timeline
1:50:29And they're like, oh, this is the thing.
1:50:31It was, you know, faved by Jon.
1:50:32He must really agree with it.
1:50:34Anyway, pretty much every single person
1:50:36who sent me a nice tweet to say, you know, congratulations
1:50:39or whatever, I faved them.
1:50:40I faved them all.
1:50:41So God knows what this is doing to anybody who follows me.
1:50:43I apologize for people who follow me
1:50:45and aren't involved in this whole thing
1:50:47if you're seeing this huge flood of things that I'm faving,
1:50:50but I faved pretty much every single one of them.
1:50:52And that's my way of trying to tell the people,
1:50:54I saw your thing and I appreciate it.
1:50:56Thank you, right?
1:50:58And I try to reserve my longer replies for either
1:51:02if I have time to do it, because honestly, it just--
1:51:05overwhelming support.
1:51:06I thank everyone who has sent even a little note or whatever.
1:51:09You just don't realize how many people
1:51:10are aware of your existence until they all
1:51:14get something in them to pop up and say hello
1:51:17or say something nice.
1:51:18So that's been very gratifying.
1:51:20And same thing, lots of people actually send me emails
1:51:22and stuff, too.
1:51:23So I've been spending a lot of time
1:51:26I'm faving and replying to emails and tweets, believe it or not, and fixing typos in my
1:51:32blog post and all that stuff.
1:51:34And then just dealing with the – speaking of the store, I made the store page for the
1:51:40upcoming ADP thing today.
1:51:44What else did I do?
1:51:45I mean, I prepared the show notes for the thing that we just recorded, like just doing
1:51:48my normal podcast stuff and doing a few things around the house.
1:51:52One of the projects I'm working on is – maybe we'll talk about it in future episodes when
1:51:56when I get past the point of research and Amazon ordering
1:51:58and get to the installation part,
1:52:00but I'm finally going to try to upgrade my thermostat,
1:52:02potentially with a smart one,
1:52:04which will involve major house surgery
1:52:06'cause my thermostat is, you know, older than I am,
1:52:10or the wires from it are older than I am anyway,
1:52:12so it's a little bit terrifying.
1:52:13And I've been playing this for a while,
1:52:15and believe me, the best time to do a thermostat
1:52:18is when the weather is getting warm enough
1:52:19that you don't need to eat anymore.
1:52:20So you do not want to mess with this in the middle of winter
1:52:22and then freeze to death and your pipes burst or whatever.
1:52:24So it's kind of getting to that season, springtime is coming, where if I really screw it up and
1:52:28our heat doesn't work, pretty soon that will not be a fatal error.
1:52:31So I'm giving myself leeway to do that.
1:52:33So that is one of the projects that I'm currently tackling.
1:52:35Do you even have a common line or whatever it's called?
1:52:37I do not.
1:52:38Oh, so it's going to use, can you even use a smart thermostat or are you going to have
1:52:42to do some wiring?
1:52:43You're going to do it?
1:52:44Yeah.
1:52:45Oh, I mean it's low voltage.
1:52:46It's not that dangerous if you mess it up.
1:52:4824 volts.
1:52:49Yeah.
1:52:50Alternating current.
1:52:51Yeah, it is AC.
1:52:52That's true.
1:52:53is not the electrical part of it, it is the physical part of it.
1:52:56Like just like routing the wires there? Navigating the guts of my ancient terrifying house, yes.
1:53:00Which does not have drywall. You know, I think I spoke about this a while ago,
1:53:06but I got a burr up my butt a few months back as a pandemic project to, I'm gonna get the terms
1:53:11wrong to go from the switches that you can like grab onto, you know, the stereotypical like older
1:53:17switches that are like a little thing sticking out of the wall that you flip up and down.
1:53:22I forget what those are called,
1:53:23but I wanted to go from that to the paddle style switches,
1:53:26you know, where it's just like a paddle.
1:53:27- Because you wanted to look at your houses from the '80s?
1:53:29- No, I think it went, did we get this one--
1:53:31- No, the paddles are now, paddles are in style again.
1:53:33It's the, what is it, Decora, what's the?
1:53:36- I forget. - I guess the flat paddles
1:53:37are more in style, but I still look at them,
1:53:38and they look like '80s to me.
1:53:40- Well, what's good about the flat paddles too
1:53:41is that if you wanted to upgrade them
1:53:43to possibly Lutron Quesada switches,
1:53:45they all have that same shape
1:53:47for the cover plates and everything.
1:53:49- And so, I think we got in the same argument
1:53:51I was talking about this a few months back. But anyways, I've been putting paddles everywhere,
1:53:55which is relatively cheap to do, all told. And it's actually something that I can handle,
1:54:00which is when it comes to things around the house, there's very little that falls in that
1:54:04category. And so I was able to handle like all of the switching over from the toggle
1:54:11or whatever they're called to the paddle decor style. And I was even able to tap existing
1:54:18common lines to put in a couple of prior sponsor,
1:54:21Lucian Casada things, but I can't imagine actually
1:54:25like going through the wall back to the furnace
1:54:28or what have you in order to wire a new common line.
1:54:32No, no thank you, I would definitely call someone.
1:54:33- Yeah, I'm just gonna end up running a whole new wire
1:54:36because honestly the wire is there currently.
1:54:38- You're gonna do this yourself?
1:54:39- Yeah, that's what I'm saying, I think that's bananas,
1:54:40you should call somebody.
1:54:41- No, I can handle it, it'll be okay.
1:54:43And I'll talk about it on the show, how it turns out,
1:54:46but again, if I really screw it up,
1:54:48It's not like we're going to freeze to death in the house
1:54:50because pretty soon it's gonna be hot.
1:54:52- I didn't tell you guys, I tried to fish a wire
1:54:54for the first time a few months back.
1:54:57Oh, it was hilarious.
1:54:58I excited it totally wrong.
1:55:00- Do you have the right tool?
1:55:01Do you have a little, what do you call it?
1:55:03The little metal thingy?
1:55:03- The cable fish thing where it's like the big,
1:55:05it's like basically like a long tape of metal
1:55:07that you reel up and yeah, I got one,
1:55:10you know, just some Amazon thing.
1:55:12I was trying to run a network cable
1:55:14across a portion of my basement that I can't really reach.
1:55:17It's like between two posts.
1:55:19So you can't really get in there as a person
1:55:21or with your arm.
1:55:22And I had to run like 15 feet to a space that I could reach.
1:55:27And I got it jammed between two floor boards
1:55:29and it was just stuck.
1:55:31- Just send in a mouse.
1:55:33- I had to take off a siding board
1:55:34on the other side of the house
1:55:35to access where I'd gotten it stuck.
1:55:37And it was a whole thing.
1:55:38So I learned, and I had it hooked on backwards
1:55:42so it was like hooky instead of flat.
1:55:45(laughs)
1:55:46- You didn't tape up the end?
1:55:48- No, I did, but it still was able
1:55:51to wedge itself somewhere.
1:55:53- Yeah, you really gotta smooth that out.
1:55:55No, I did, if you recall, when I first got Fios,
1:55:58I ran like 100 feet of Cat 6 through my basement
1:56:02because the fiber comes in the far corner
1:56:05of the house from where I actually needed,
1:56:06and so I did all that fishing myself
1:56:09through the finished room in the basement,
1:56:11through the non-finished room,
1:56:12up through the floor to the television area,
1:56:14up through the wall and floor into the room that I'm in.
1:56:18I'm very familiar with trying to
1:56:19fish ethernet cables through things,
1:56:21and the techniques I came up with are unorthodox
1:56:23and probably stupid, but they did eventually work.
1:56:26So I'm going to leverage those skills.
1:56:29My thermostat wire will be easy in comparison
1:56:31because my thermostat is actually not that far
1:56:33from the furnace in the basement,
1:56:35and I did all the Googling and looked up the part number
1:56:37and figured out all the parts that I have,
1:56:38'cause my furnace is not super ancient,
1:56:40of the wire, the two wires, only two,
1:56:44the two wires that go to my current thermostat
1:56:47absolutely are older than me.
1:56:48Like they don't even use rubber insulation,
1:56:50they use like braided cloth insulation
1:56:52that's so old that if you look at it, it crumbles.
1:56:54- Oh my God.
1:56:55- None of the insulators, none of the insulation
1:56:57on the wires are anywhere in my house have any colors.
1:57:00Everything is like, oh, you're gonna find
1:57:02like the common wire and it'll be black
1:57:04and the neutral wire will be white
1:57:05and whatever the hot wire was.
1:57:06- They can see the way around.
1:57:07- You kidding?
1:57:08Yeah, whatever.
1:57:09Like, none of the wires in my house have any color.
1:57:11They're all color-- the color I would describe is soot.
1:57:14Every single one of them is soot color.
1:57:17And they're not wrapped in rubber.
1:57:19They're wrapped in like this ancient hard stuff,
1:57:20and there's like canvas things around it.
1:57:22And so like that just--
1:57:23it's amazing my house doesn't burn down
1:57:25any time I do anything.
1:57:26So that is going to be removed and replaced
1:57:27with actual 18-5 thermostat wire if I am successful.
1:57:31And if I'm not, I will call someone and pay them lots of money
1:57:33and they'll fix my mistakes.
1:57:35But I think I can pull it off for further news
1:57:37on future episodes.
1:57:38- Oh man.
1:57:39- Yeah, there's only a couple of spots in the house
1:57:41that I really wish I had an ethernet drop.
1:57:43And what I've done because I'm lazy
1:57:45is I've put mocha bridges in those spots.
1:57:48But if I was braver, and I know it's not,
1:57:51like I helped my dad when I was in high school wire
1:57:54our then house for cat five or whatever it was at the time.
1:57:57And I presumably could do it, but I'm so scared
1:58:00I'm gonna like put a hole somewhere somehow,
1:58:02which you shouldn't be able to do using,
1:58:05you know, just trying to wire with ethernet.
1:58:06but I feel like I would somehow put my foot
1:58:09through the ceiling of the second floor
1:58:11or something like that.
1:58:12I'm just, I'm scared.
1:58:13I'm a big baby.
1:58:14- I think it's one of those things
1:58:15that eventually you realize,
1:58:16you know what, if I accidentally put a hole in a wall,
1:58:19I don't want to be there,
1:58:20it's not that hard to patch a wall.
1:58:22It's one of those things that you learn as an adult,
1:58:24okay, well, I can patch it
1:58:26and it might look a little bit uneven, but who cares?
1:58:28It's just living in a house.
1:58:30- Did I tell you that story
1:58:31when we were getting a new siding on our house?
1:58:33There, you know, the--
1:58:35- Yeah, the big project a few years back?
1:58:36- Yeah, yeah, and they were,
1:58:39people who were doing the project were outside
1:58:41using pneumatic nail guns to do whatever they were doing
1:58:44or whatever, and they had a misfire,
1:58:47and one of the nails from the nail gun
1:58:49went through the outside of the house
1:58:51and came into the room that I'm sitting in.
1:58:52So I came home one day. - Oh my gosh.
1:58:54- I came home one day and looked above the wall,
1:58:57above the upper right corner of the wall
1:58:59where my wife's computer is,
1:59:00and there was four inches of nail sticking out of the wall
1:59:04like sort of hanging there, just sort of dangling,
1:59:06'cause it had come almost all the way through,
1:59:08but it had not come all the way through
1:59:09to fall out into the room,
1:59:11so it was just being held in by the little part of the nail,
1:59:14and I was like, "Wha?"
1:59:15Yeah, so, you know, it's like,
1:59:17"Well, how do you patch it up?"
1:59:18"No, we just kinda patch it up
1:59:20and put a little bit of spackle over it
1:59:22and don't talk about it."
1:59:24Yeah. (laughs)
1:59:25It's not the same color as the wall,
1:59:26but it's close enough that no one notices,
1:59:28and there's so much else wrong with the house
1:59:29that really it's hard to pick out any one thing.
1:59:31(beeping)