0:00:00I am so freaking stressed right now.
0:00:02I don't think I've really come to grips with this whole filming car videos thing quite yet,
0:00:09because all I can think about is all the ways that the footage I have is not enough and will never work and is all
0:00:16wrong and the car goes back in on Friday morning. And
0:00:20this is roughly the same feeling I've had every time I've had a car video,
0:00:25but it's getting worse and worse because I'm now
0:00:28no longer just doing this for grins and giggles. I'm doing it for like sort of my job.
0:00:33So I am just a ball of stress right now. I should not be recording right now.
0:00:39I should be fiddling around in Final Cut right now. In fact, if you just find me dropping off the call, just just roll on.
0:00:44It's fine.
0:00:46So, I mean, I think interesting thought exercise might be
0:00:49assume you had more time with the car.
0:00:52Do you think you would ever reach the point where you wouldn't feel all panicked and insecure about the video clips that you have so far?
0:00:59Don't don't use your logic on me.
0:01:01You know, I've made, you know, of all the video I have made,
0:01:07I had that feeling for
0:01:11all of it and
0:01:13and it was true. I didn't have all the right footage.
0:01:17In fact, I had way too little footage than for what I actually needed, but
0:01:22I managed to get a video out of it anyway, and I think
0:01:25that's probably true of most people who make videos on a deadline. Like, you're never gonna have enough time or
0:01:31enough people or enough gear to get all of the shots you want exactly the way you want them and
0:01:38you're always gonna have to make up for something that you didn't get or that's wrong or that doesn't fit in
0:01:44like during editing after the car's gone. Like, that's always gonna happen.
0:01:48That's gonna happen every single video you make. I think that's just part of making videos.
0:01:51So
0:01:53while I sympathize with this feeling that you have, I think it's also
0:01:56possibly reassuring to think of it as just this kind of
0:02:00inevitability that will probably happen to every video and you'll find a way around it and it'll be fine.
0:02:05Just lower your standards like DeMuro. You don't have some footage? Sit in front of a room and shoot yourself.
0:02:09Yeah, I had footage of me driving, but I lost it. So here's me not driving. Let me tell you what it was like.
0:02:13It was pretty good. Anyway, Doug Skor.
0:02:18Title. No, I hear you and I think in a serious answer to your actually very interesting thought
0:02:25question, or what was thought exercise, I think
0:02:29in a perfect world where I had absolutely no deadline, what I would be doing is I would be filming and then
0:02:38putting that into my Final Cut project and
0:02:41figuring out was that good? Was it perfect? Was it good enough? Where does it fit? What is the story arc, etc?
0:02:48And you know what I mean? So I could see it. I would be processing it
0:02:52"live" not literally live, but you know
0:02:55I'd be processing it like nightly or something in order to
0:02:58figure out if what I had just recorded was good enough. And as it stands right now
0:03:02I'm just like
0:03:04glancing at the footage to make sure it isn't an utter disaster and then going on faith that I can somehow
0:03:09piece together something out of it, which is what you were talking about Marco. And
0:03:14it's fine, like it's all fine, but I am deeply woefully
0:03:18incredibly stressed right now because I feel like I have a bunch of mediocre video and no good video. And
0:03:25at some point I'm just gonna have to get over it and deal with it,
0:03:30which is what has happened the last couple of times.
0:03:31But I think the difference, like I said, is that this time I'm doing the reverse of what John recommended.
0:03:37I'm holding myself to an even higher standard because now in theory
0:03:42I have more time to make this better, when in reality
0:03:45I do have more time, but I have no more skill than I had or only marginally more skill than I had before. And
0:03:51it's it stressed me out some fears. You need to mentally sever the connection between production values and
0:03:57popularity of the video and success of the video if you consider popularity be success because there is not as much connection as you think
0:04:04there is. Like I mean I used Demir's example. Casey, did you see the video I'm referring to where he really lost all the driving footage
0:04:10and he just said, "Well, whatever. I lost it. I deleted it accidentally.
0:04:14Here's what it was like to drive." Like just, you know, the audio quality in his videos,
0:04:20the number of shots, the quality of the shots, doesn't matter.
0:04:24Like it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Like just, you know, I think you're
0:04:30stressing about the wrong things. Much better things for you to stress about.
0:04:34Well, and again, I think you're right, but man, it's hard not to. Plus I still haven't licked the
0:04:40the audio thing. I need to find a lavalier mic or however you pronounce it. Don't lick your microphone. Oh, is that the tip?
0:04:46Okay. No, I mean audio is it's it's hard to get it really good. I would say audio
0:04:52I mean, I'm kind of biased because I like audio better than everything else.
0:04:54But I think audio is more important to get technically good than video in even in a video
0:05:00because the audio like bad audio is makes the video really hard to watch whereas bad video is
0:05:06pretty acceptable in a lot in a lot of ways.
0:05:09And doesn't doesn't actually interfere that much with the viewing experience.
0:05:13But anyway, I would I would just go to say like, you know, John's right. Like there when you're making video
0:05:21you first of all, you're looking at people who are like
0:05:25you know big YouTube channels and big TV producers and what they produce and you're comparing yourself as a
0:05:30Complete newbie relatively speaking. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Also you're working alone
0:05:36You know most big channels and producers have staffs that produce video like it's as you know
0:05:43There's a lot about making video that's pretty hard to do by yourself
0:05:45and you know you make it work you figure out a way or you or you have some somebody help you as much as possible but
0:05:52You know with video there is an infinite
0:05:56There is no ceiling on production values like no matter like you're never gonna reach a point where you think
0:06:04My production values are right where they need to be
0:06:06no, that's never gonna happen like you're always gonna want to get more and more and more and more and
0:06:10Because you aren't like the entire BBC with an infinite budget like that's you're never gonna reach the level
0:06:18You know that level of like of technical perfection. So
0:06:22instead, you know
0:06:24you have to aim for basically like best bang for the buck and I mean that both in money and also in time and complexity and
0:06:31You know, that's why like I made this mistake for my video
0:06:34when you know, I basically bought a whole bunch of gear that I ended up using between zero and one times and
0:06:41You're never gonna you know reach perfection technically but you just have to reach the point where
0:06:47You can say this is good enough and that's gonna be really hard to decide and it's gonna be really hard to finally make that
0:06:54Call and whether you're there or not, you might already be there
0:06:57but but the reality is what people care about is what you're saying and how it sounds and
0:07:03A little bit of the video but if there's flaws in the video who cares welcome to YouTube everything on YouTube is like, you know
0:07:11Like only the only the very top top top tier are producing things that look like TV
0:07:17everyone else is
0:07:20making do with like their iPhone as the camera and
0:07:24Long shots of themselves talking and everything and it's fine. It's totally fine. Even the high-end channels are doing that
0:07:30I just watched that
0:07:32MKBHD I just seen opening of the old that was so good. I
0:07:36Forget which channel it was on but I'm I don't I don't know this for sure
0:07:41But looking at the video my thinking is that they shot the thing in 8k and then they're just crop zooming
0:07:46To the interesting parts like because they could they didn't have a camera person
0:07:49They basically had a camera on a tripod
0:07:51tripod getting both of them and every time there was a point of interest because they shot at 8k they had the resolution to be
0:07:57able to zoom in on peeling the sticker off or zoom in on a person's a reaction and it didn't look gross because
0:08:02You know, they had a ridiculously expensive camera, but that's not you shoot TV
0:08:05like they do that in movies sometimes but like really what you want as a camera person and get the close-up and like do inserts and
0:08:12All like but they didn't because it's like well we don't time for that
0:08:15We don't have the staff. We don't even though that were you know bazillionaires and have these amazing big channels
0:08:20We just want to get this video out and like and all the way down to Doug DeMuro
0:08:23Who's putting an iPhone on a tripod pointing it at himself with no staff?
0:08:27And he just crawls around in the car for a half an hour and he's done
0:08:30like and that's just like he should be your inspiration because it's not like he doesn't care but like the
0:08:36Quality that he's putting out by just using like his iPhone and a cruddy microphone. It's not great, but it's fine
0:08:42Like it's that's not the problem with his videos, right?
0:08:44It's not no one's watching his videos and saying your video was good, but I wish there was more dramatic lighting
0:08:48It's like can you see what he's talking about? Can you hear him? Does it sound not awful good thumbs up?
0:08:54Like and even only unlike the sound gear front to like on in my video
0:08:59My sound wasn't that good. I have all the gear in the world
0:09:03I could I could have had perfect sound but you know, I didn't have a boom operator
0:09:09Or even the right kind of like, you know big long stand to hover it over my head during it, you know in the shot
0:09:15Yeah, and or a camera person to skillfully avoid having the boom in the shot if I tried that, you know
0:09:22The right way to get really good audio to the best of my knowledge is to have somebody holding a hyper cardioid
0:09:28Short-range mic right above your head pointed at your mouth the whole time that you will get the best audio that way sure
0:09:34But you need you know, you need more equipment and especially generally you need some you need a person to be doing that
0:09:42there's a lot of things about about video production where like
0:09:45What it comes down to really is you need a person to be holding something or looking at something or operating something for you
0:09:51You know and that's hard to do when you're an indie, you know in your house
0:09:54Like you can you can try to rip your family into it
0:09:58But even that has has limits of like how much they're willing to tolerate for you
0:10:02Yeah, right
0:10:06Just keep holding a kid. Yeah, so so yeah, that's that's of limited value generally
0:10:11So, you know you see you got to figure out you know
0:10:13Good enough hacks like even I who care so much about audio quality
0:10:17Ended up just like having a microphone like on my podcast boom arm
0:10:23pointing near me at too far of a distance and
0:10:27It was oh wait. No. No, I forgot. I tried that didn't it wasn't as good you did the lab Mike thing
0:10:33Yeah, what I have there is my is my really crappy yet not cheap
0:10:38Rode wireless lavalier mic which is not a good idea. Those things are not very good for their price. See this is the problem
0:10:45I need you to do a podcasting
0:10:47microphone mega review but for lavalier mics because I've I've solicited recommendations more than once and
0:10:53Nobody really seems to have experience in a surprisingly enough who knew with lavalier mics in a loud moving
0:11:00Automobile now granted the the I would turn the AC either offer all the way or you know
0:11:05Nearly off but nobody has really experienced one of these mics in this extremely
0:11:09Boomy loud environment and I'm and I'm reluctant to spend like I'll spend
0:11:14decent money on a mic if I have if I am
0:11:17Fairly confident that it will fit the bill and I'm not the kind of person that likes to do the like
0:11:22Oh try this return it. Oh try this return it dance. So I need someone like you Marco
0:11:27Try all these out in your not in your electric car mind you I need it in your in your dyno juice mobile
0:11:35in order to tell me which one is the one to buy so I can just buy that and be done with it because the
0:11:39Audio the best audio I've found so far is by having a brand new GoPro within like six inches of my mouth
0:11:46Which I'm sure is making everyone's skin crawl, but it actually is the best audio I found in car
0:11:50Anyway outside the car. I have a crummy
0:11:52Lavalier mic that works enough, but I feel like it clips over
0:11:57Everything and so I just need to get a better
0:12:01Lavalier mic I just don't know what to buy and there and I well if you're if you're
0:12:04Clipping the problem isn't the mic
0:12:06Well, but I'm not even talking loudly that well
0:12:09but the problem is lower the problem is what's driving the mic or or what's receiving the mic signal like
0:12:14you're clipping because something is exceeding a
0:12:17limit on you know when it converts with the gain back to digital whenever like that's you're exceeding the
0:12:24range of
0:12:26What's receiving that signal?
0:12:27so the way to fix clipping is to lower the input signal or to use an analog limiter and
0:12:32I and actually if you use USB pre - that does have analog limiters
0:12:37I believe only when the mic mode is being used so you might need to do some some wiring conversion to make that work, but
0:12:44Anyway, that that is not a problem with the mic that is a problem with something, you know down the down the chain there
0:12:51But generally though, you know your instinct to put a GoPro right next to your face
0:12:56You know proximity is your friend when it comes to having good sound in a in a loud environment
0:13:01Then you know trying to separate you from the background. There's no magic to it
0:13:05It's just you know, see them signal noise ratio. Like you are the signal the background is the noise
0:13:10So you need to be as loud as possible in that mic while being as well
0:13:15The mic is as far away from the noise as possible. Like that's that's it
0:13:17And so sometimes, you know when you're in a car, it's kind of hard to get away from noise
0:13:20So just get really close to the mic adjust your you know gain on whatever this is going into so that it's not clipping
0:13:27You're that that is that solves your problem right there
0:13:30Yeah, and to go back a little bit, you know, one of you said it might've been John, you know
0:13:35This takes a whole team of people to do actually Marco you said this as well
0:13:37This reminds me of a video that Casey Neistat put out
0:13:41I don't know like a month or two ago May 31st
0:13:43Where he ended up rendez-vousing with MKBHD as MKBHD was was reviewing a Lamborghini and sure enough
0:13:51There were like five people there helping him do this and that did make me feel both deeply miserable
0:13:58Because I know I will never get to that point and also really really happy because it made me feel like okay
0:14:04If it takes five people to come up with something that good then maybe one person can come up with something
0:14:11That's passable, which is what you guys have been saying in the iBook video
0:14:14They're also they they were using their iPhone to shoot the front of the thing because again
0:14:18They didn't have time to have multi camera setups and it's just like well, whatever
0:14:20We got the one thing on the tripod and then if we need a shot of the front of it
0:14:23We'll keep awkwardly turning it towards the camera, but then eventually
0:14:27Just use our iPhone or whatever and then the iPhone shots because they're shooting the opposite direction
0:14:31You could see the camera on the tripod and you could also see like this bored person off to the right like now paying attention
0:14:37To them making the video just like fiddling around on the computer with no interest in whatever they're doing
0:14:41You know, it's just I don't think anyone cares like it's fine
0:14:47They just want to see the computer like I mean, maybe I feel like that could have told I got a move
0:14:51But it's not gonna reshoot it. Like it's just this is the one and done. That's just this is the thing
0:14:55We're opening the box. We're excited about it and we're done and then I didn't look at the view count on the video
0:14:59But I bet it's pretty hot. So don't worry about it 1.2 million. Yeah, so you're fine. You're just fine
0:15:04What's the view count on the Jamiro video where he lost the driving foot? I don't remember which one it was
0:15:11I know exactly what you're thinking of, but I don't remember what the video was. I'll look at a pan
0:15:15I know I just I really needed a I needed a pep talk and I appreciate it because I feel like I
0:15:20it's it's that typical thing where
0:15:24my vision is
0:15:26Is far beyond the means of my ability which is probably in the grand scheme of things a healthy thing
0:15:32But when you're in the midst of it and when you have this ticking
0:15:35Not time bomb but this ticking clock because this car is gonna go back as I record in
0:15:39Basically a day, you know, I have all day tomorrow to record with it and that's basically it
0:15:44and so I just there's this deadline that just won't go away and
0:15:49And it's just stressing me out and the moral the story is I just got to keep doing it
0:15:55I got to keep trying it
0:15:56I got to keep just putting the pieces together with the utter crap that I've filmed and try to make something out of it
0:16:03But golly it's tough and in and I feel like the only way I'm gonna get really a better at this is to do more and
0:16:10More and more of it, but that's hard when I only have access to but so many cars especially for the duration of time
0:16:17You know that I don't get a lot of access to a lot of cars for a whole week
0:16:20You know what?
0:16:21I mean, I could I could potentially get access to two cars for a few hours like DeMuro does but I am nowhere near that point
0:16:28Right. He does what he has in a few hours. That should be he should be your inspiration
0:16:31His video by the way has 900,000 views the one where he deleted all the driving footage
0:16:35RCF Lexus so keep in mind also Casey like, you know, you're saying like
0:16:43You know because this is the first video that you're doing after your go after you've got independent you've placed this this like
0:16:49Additional standard or burden on it of like how good it has to be but it's still only your third one of these
0:16:55so
0:16:58Don't worry about that. You just became self-employed like that actually like you're self-employed as a podcaster
0:17:04The video stuff is currently your hobby. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. And so it doesn't need to be
0:17:10amazing this time compared to how it was last time which was already pretty decent because it's still just your third one of these and
0:17:17By the way, let me point out you do have access to lots of cars for more than a week
0:17:22The ones that you own or have owned
0:17:24Or you know cars you can borrow from your dad or whatever
0:17:27So like, you know you have you have access to more cars than than you think
0:17:30And and you might think it's not worth reviewing like, you know an old, you know
0:17:37Before it went away like Aaron's old Mazda or your old BMW if that still exists
0:17:42Totally should have got footage of Aaron's Mazda
0:17:45I know
0:17:46First of all, like I think it actually is kind of fun to have like modern reviews of old cars
0:17:51Like I think that's kind of cool and I'm sure I'm not the only one
0:17:53I mean people watch all sorts of total bullshit on YouTube
0:17:56so they like they've got to watch stuff like that because actually, you know, pretty fun and also
0:18:00Doing that will be practice for you to get better and more confident for when you get press cars
0:18:07Or when you get limited time access to two cars. So like
0:18:10You should be doing that now anyway
0:18:13But again, just keep in mind that like all the burden you've placed on this
0:18:18It's still only your third video give your you know
0:18:21Cut yourself some slack and realize it's not gonna be perfect because it's your third one
0:18:25Listen to the third episode of any podcast anybody has ever done like the very first time they started podcasting
0:18:31It's not very good
0:18:33It's and like, you know, everyone learns you get better, but it takes time. It takes practice and that's what you're doing
0:18:38But you're you're at the very beginning stage of that really so cut yourself a break deal with what you got and you'll get better over time
0:18:45Appreciate it. I mean, I'll get there and for the record I am not at all above
0:18:51You know doing old car reviews. I am totally into that and had this been something I was really
0:19:00Considering doing when we got rid of Aaron's car, which was I think almost to the day a year ago now
0:19:04I I absolutely would have reviewed the crap out of that Mazda 6 which was probably the best car that our family will ever own
0:19:11I mean that thing was bulletproof for 10 years and we put almost no money into it and it was a great car from the moment
0:19:16We bought it till the moment we sold it
0:19:18But
0:19:22But no it was it was a great car and I miss it
0:19:25I'm like my BMW was just been sitting rotting because I still haven't done anything with it
0:19:29But I think I might know what I might be buying except maybe not and that's kind of the arc of this forthcoming video
0:19:33Okay, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that after the video is out
0:19:37This this video is both answering and answering all of my questions and raising all new ones
0:19:43Which is the best and the worst but you know, it is what it is
0:19:46Stephen Hart writes us to say that the patent office has a policy to reject any patent of a perpetual motion machine unless there is
0:19:54A fully built working model. This was like a one-off comment that John made if I'm not mistaken
0:19:59Apple's patent on their little keyboard condoms like you can patent stuff. It doesn't mean that it actually
0:20:04Works the to do the thing that you say it's supposed to do so Apple patented this thing to keep crap out of your keyboard
0:20:10Right, but does it keep crap out of your keyboard doesn't matter
0:20:13You can get a patent on it anyway, and I was saying you can patent anything even perpetual motion machines
0:20:17Which I'm sure I had in my mind for this specific reason because perpetual motion machine is such a
0:20:22You know, it didn't say this in the Wikipedia article
0:20:24But because it's such a popular thing and like in the history of humanity like everyone thinks they're always thinks
0:20:30They're making a perpetual motion machine. I bet tons of people tried to patent perpetual motion machines
0:20:35And it's probably just an annoyance
0:20:36So the patent office in the US has a specific rule that says if you get something that basically is a perpetual motion machine
0:20:42Just flat-out refuse like special case rule. We're annoyed with your stupid purple perpetual motion machines
0:20:48Just know you have to show us a working you have to actually show us a working thing that actually
0:20:53Works the way you say it does which is not true of other patents. And so this is the Wikipedia thing goes on
0:20:58Even if a patent is granted this is what I was getting at does not it does not mean that the invention actually works
0:21:03It just means the examiner believes that it works or was unable to figure out why it would not work another dumb thing about the patent
0:21:09System patent examiners who are just these people are expected to make a determination to say do you believe this works or?
0:21:17Can you not figure out why it wouldn't work?
0:21:19Give a patent
0:21:22I guess I'm the expert and everything
0:21:24So what I was getting at is still holds despite my perpetual motion machine not being a valid one
0:21:30Just because they've been so inundated and annoyed by that and the hundreds of years of the patent office
0:21:34You can get a patent on all sorts of things does not mean it does what it but you say it does
0:21:39My favorite thing too is like me for last last episode
0:21:43We we had we had been written into by an air conditioning expert of like, you know
0:21:48Like window air conditioner expert and this time somebody wrote in who claims to be a former patent examiner
0:21:54Tell us this we actually we heard this information from a number of people
0:21:58I forget whether it was Steven Hart here the same guy though. Same guy same air conditioning guy works in patent office. Oh, yeah
0:22:03Are you being serious? I can't
0:22:07It might be I mean, that's the magic of the magic of email
0:22:11No, and you could make up anything an email to anybody. Yeah, we're so gullible. We write us anything
0:22:15We'll just believe it and say it in a podcast put in the show
0:22:18Please don't encourage them. All right moving on 2018 keyboards will not be used to repair the 2016 2017 MacBook Pros according to Joe
0:22:27Russ single Ross Ross signal at Mac rumors
0:22:31This is a quote
0:22:33when asked if Apple stores and Apple authorized service providers will be permitted to replace the second gen keyboards in
0:22:382016 2017 MacBook Pro models with the new third gen keyboards if necessary Apple said no
0:22:43The third generation keyboards are exclusive to the 2018 MacBook Pro then they quietly added under their breath. Please give us more money
0:22:49No, that's not true
0:22:50This actually kind of makes sense as we were learning more about these machines as people are getting them and taking them apart
0:22:55That one of the major changes of these machines is that the battery size is pretty different the new ones have a bigger battery
0:23:02There's been a few parts inside that have had to be
0:23:05Redesigned or moved slightly to fit that bigger battery. Well, the battery is part of the top case
0:23:10The keyboard is also part of the top case and in fact
0:23:12There's some speculation at I fix it because the one they took apart
0:23:17Weighs the exact same as last year's model, even though it has like a 10% bigger battery
0:23:22So they speculate that they made up the weight difference by reducing some of the metal mass in the top case
0:23:28So whatever the case may be it does seem like the top case is different enough with these 2018 models
0:23:34that it probably is not a trivial job to fit one onto the previous generation MacBook Pros and
0:23:42Since the keyboard is part of the top case. That's probably why they can't
0:23:47Fit this this particular new keyboard in the top case it comes with on the old computers now
0:23:53This isn't the only option they have they could
0:23:56re-engineer the
0:23:582017 2016 top cases to have these
0:24:02These silicone membrane things that protects the keys from dust they are choosing not to take that option and I'm not that surprised
0:24:08You know when Apple does these kind of extended repair programs or when they have a flaw like this
0:24:14their solution
0:24:16Usually isn't we will fix it in a way that is permanently fixed for you
0:24:20their solution usually is
0:24:22We will repair it for free up to X years and then you just have to buy a new laptop if you won't don't want this
0:24:28Problem anymore. That's what they did with the GPU failures before that repair program
0:24:32That's what they did with with like the cracking plastic on the plastic MacBooks
0:24:35And that's what they're gonna do on the on this too. Like, you know, if you have a 2016 2017
0:24:40Your keyboard will probably never be fully a hundred percent immune to it the to these problems
0:24:46We actually don't even know if the 2018's will be yet. It's a little early just to say
0:24:51but but if the 2018
0:24:55Rubber gasket thing or rubber membrane thing does fix the problem
0:25:00that's not coming to the older ones and and that's I I understand why with the
0:25:06Likely difference in top case but doesn't make it suck any less for the owners of those two generations of laptops
0:25:12Yeah, that's why you don't want to end up, you know getting a you know
0:25:16A quote-unquote bad model or whatever because like you're just even with the repair program
0:25:21Which you have to wait patiently for to come into existence
0:25:23Maybe you have to bring it back one or two more times and that's just annoying to have to bring it back and be without
0:25:27your laptop and then you know, it's just
0:25:30You feel like I wish I had a laptop that I just bought and then used for a while and it was fine
0:25:36but now you're
0:25:38you know that the likelihood of you having to bring it back in is exactly the same as the likelihood was from the time that
0:25:44You bought it because they're putting the same exact part in it
0:25:47We are sponsored this week by Northwestern University and their master's program in information systems
0:25:53Visit SPS dot Northwestern dot edu slash is for more information
0:25:58Are you interested in building the technical skills?
0:26:01Management expertise and professional network needed for a successful career in IT management
0:26:06If so, the Northwestern University's master's program and information systems might be just what you're looking for
0:26:12The program is led by a professional faculty comprised of leading data science experts and offers a range of options to meet your career goals
0:26:20You can choose from seven specializations including AI data science and is security plus more
0:26:26Unlike traditional computer science programs Northwestern's information systems degree emphasizes project development and management
0:26:33So graduates emerge with the skills needed to excel and lead integrated projects
0:26:37You can build this deep skill set and broaden your professional network while earning your Northwestern master's degree on campus or online
0:26:44Find out more about Northwestern University's master's program in information systems
0:26:49Visit SPS dot Northwestern dot edu slash is once again, it's SPS dot Northwestern dot edu
0:26:56Slash is thank you so much to Northwestern University and the master's program in information systems for sponsoring our show
0:27:03There's been a
0:27:09kerfuffle because apparently
0:27:11Apparently we can't just have nice things and be excited about them instead
0:27:17We all need to get grumpy about something and this week
0:27:20We're all electing to get grumpy about the 2018 MacBook Pro with the i9 processor
0:27:25So Dave Lee who I'm not personally familiar with but seems like he is no schmuck by any stretch of the imagination
0:27:31has a YouTube channel where he reviewed or maybe not even reviewed but but made a video about the
0:27:39core i9 MacBook Pro and the TLDR of this is that it apparently runs real hot and
0:27:47because of that
0:27:49it will
0:27:50Throttle itself and not use the full potential of the i9 processor because it gets too hot too quickly
0:27:56And what he was seeing was that it only runs for a few seconds
0:27:59I don't remember exactly how many but not very long before it throttles itself and
0:28:03Justifiably, he's pretty grumpy about that because the whole idea behind getting this maxed out MacBook Pro is
0:28:09To be able to do the sorts of things that he does in this case video editing
0:28:14Anywhere and as someone who is dabbling with video editing myself, I can sympathize with this
0:28:19so he actually tested the i9 MacBook Pro the brand new one and
0:28:24Just sitting there and then he literally put the thing in a freezer
0:28:29Which you should not do know what you should not do but for lots of reasons
0:28:33He put it in freezer and ran the same test
0:28:36I believe he was like exporting a rendering or something in Final Cut Pro 10 or whatever the case maybe it doesn't really matter the specific
0:28:41Specifics of the test but he tried it again and it turned out it was like 30 percent or something like that better when it
0:28:47Was in the freezer thus implying that throttling was the problem now
0:28:52I I have a couple of problems with this test in that of course any you know
0:28:57Processors gonna run a lot quicker when it's cold just like you know a motor runs a lot
0:29:01He's stopping it from throttling right first of all the time scales on his test was it was like a 30 minute thing
0:29:10So just based on his video is like I'm gonna do I'm gonna max out all the cores
0:29:15presumably for like 30 minutes
0:29:18And then and that's why he was running it against like the old the previous generation that had two fewer cores and the one with
0:29:25two fewer cores one
0:29:26Presumably because the new one with six core was was throttling itself down to a lower clock speed and the other one was not throttling itself
0:29:33As much and then when you put in the freezer the new one one handily over the old one, right?
0:29:38So everyone is really really really perturbed about this. So I'm
0:29:44I'm not sure what to think of this because I
0:29:47Certainly wouldn't be happy if I spent a whole pile of money on this machine that that quickly therm
0:29:53You know thermal throttles that's or you know throttles itself because of thermal issues
0:29:57But to some degree I feel like
0:30:01Some amount of this should be expected though
0:30:03Perhaps not as much as we're seeing and I can't decide if I'm actually upset about this or not. So I don't know
0:30:09You should go through the the reddit ones too because they have some again
0:30:12This is just anecdotal testing but there's more numbers for more people. I think the red the red ones got got more specific
0:30:18So that was a 30 minute test and it's like, alright
0:30:20Well, the geekbench numbers all look good, but geekbench doesn't take 30 minutes to run
0:30:24So at what point does the throttling kick in does it just kick in if you max all six scores with you know?
0:30:30For a half an hour or does it kick in after 30 seconds?
0:30:32So this is one person did a test where it was throttling down to 800 megahertz, which is bad
0:30:37After less than five minutes, he's running this prime number benchmark
0:30:41I was trolled down to 2.5 gigahertz after less than one minute with maximum fan speed on so this is this goes to something Marco mentioned
0:30:48earlier today on Twitter that a possible fixes Apple to tweak the
0:30:51Fan controlled sail just blow the fans faster
0:30:55so this was a test in which they artificially made the fans blow at max speed the entire time just crank them to max and
0:31:01Did a test and it still throttled down to 2.5 gigahertz after less than a minute on this prime thing
0:31:05And it was throwing down to point 5 gigahertz with automatic fan on you know
0:31:11The fan doing what it wants to do as well
0:31:12So the 800 megahertz thing after five minutes is bad
0:31:15But anytime you look like a prime number generator or some other kind of like hotspot producing thing. It's probably
0:31:20Not representative of real loads, but I think the final cut export probably is representative of real loads. So
0:31:29This is just two data points here two people Dave Lee on YouTube and aea on reddit
0:31:34And there's a bunch of other people in the thread giving their experience as well
0:31:37but it certainly looks like
0:31:40this laptop is
0:31:43doesn't quite have enough cooling to realize the full performance of all six cores under
0:31:50On harsh conditions admittedly, but I think potentially realistic conditions
0:31:56Yeah, I mean this if it was just Dave Lee's video then I would have assumed he got a bad one
0:32:01But the fact that a lot of other people are now chiming in with similar reports
0:32:06It does sound like this is not just a fluke with like his laptop
0:32:09It seems like this is just this model of laptop with this processor. I would like to know has anybody posted whether the
0:32:16Base 15 inch CPU has this kind of throttling. Yeah, I don't know
0:32:21I mean, I have to imagine it's related to the cores as
0:32:25Discussing us on Twitter a lot as many people find out thinking of Marco as well like
0:32:28That this is not a process shrink like this six core is made on the same process as the previous four core, right?
0:32:35so you're not getting well we could fit more cores in because everything is smaller and
0:32:39That's how we can you know, get it into the same thermal envelope
0:32:42Like I have to imagine I don't know what the actual numbers but I have to imagine the six core processor
0:32:47Puts out more heat than then the four core does because it's it's made on the same process
0:32:53You can't get blood from a stone, right? So and I don't think they removed a whole bunch of cash and made the GPU smaller to wedge in the other cores or anything like that or even if they did it's obviously not making up for it and the cooling capacity is determined mostly by
0:33:05You know
0:33:06How fast can the fans move air and how many heat pipes can you snake from the little contact patch and you mean?
0:33:12this is this is what was getting at last show about the
0:33:14The inherent design trade-offs like what trade-offs are made for the 15 inch. There's a certain envelope of size weight
0:33:21Power, you know all that little stuff
0:33:23the trade-offs made for this chassis
0:33:26May not have been made with the expectation that they're going to have to cool
0:33:30What is it now a 14 nanometer six core processor?
0:33:34They made the expectation may have been that surely by
0:33:362018 there'll be 10 nanometers explore processors and that'll fit it in this chassis
0:33:41No problem
0:33:42And so let's design everything around that but Intel as we have later in the topics that we ever get to it Intel has
0:33:47Been very late on its smaller process size. And so we have many many generations
0:33:51talk talk talk talk as Marco said last show of these 14 nanometer processors and it's entirely conceivable that just
0:33:58It can handle the heat most of the time
0:34:02But if you really max out all six cores and maybe the GPU as well that even at maximum fan speed in a fairly hot room
0:34:09It's gonna throttle like that's my laptop suck everybody. Let's get a Mac Pro and be happy
0:34:16Yeah, and to understand this problem it helps to I'll go over briefly some of the factors here
0:34:22CPUs are you know modern CPUs they're rated by their TDP
0:34:26Which I believe stands for thermal design power and this is basically like the maximum amount of heat expressed in watts
0:34:32that the processor is is allowed to emit under load and
0:34:39What if it's if it's hitting the TDP limit it will usually clock itself down now
0:34:44they realized as an optimization like you can use something you can use dynamic clock speeds to
0:34:49Be able to like boost one core super high for a little while as long as it doesn't hit thermal limits
0:34:56If the other cores aren't doing that much and if all the cores are super busy like they are and like
0:35:01You know multi core exports from Final Cut multi core benchmarks things like that
0:35:05Then you can't go quite as high
0:35:07You can still usually boost the speed a little bit until it gets too hot and then you got to slow it back down
0:35:12And that's what turbo boost does turbo boost is what manages that it's what offers these like higher speeds sometimes
0:35:18but not all the time higher speed of a certain workloads like single threaded ones, but not all workloads, but
0:35:23With all that what is expected for from every processor every processor advertises its base clock speed
0:35:31This is the speed like in this one
0:35:32I believe it's 2.9 gigahertz right the the speed that is advertised on the box
0:35:36And then usually it'll say you know it can turbo boost up to whatever it usually it's like another
0:35:42500 megahertz or 800 megahertz above that does this one go to 4.5
0:35:46I thought I saw a turbo boost number of 4.5 or something crazy like I think it's 4.8. It's it's ridiculous. It's very very high
0:35:52but anyway
0:35:54So with a properly engineered computer and a properly engineered processor and a properly working cooling system the base clock
0:36:02Should be sustainable no matter what even if it's a hot day
0:36:07Even if you're maxing out all the cores for eight hours the base clock should be fixed
0:36:13It shouldn't you the processor should never have to dip below the base clock if it ever did for the base clock something is wrong
0:36:19With that design or that hardware simple as that so there was also an article posted today about the 13-inch on
0:36:26notebook check.net
0:36:28it's testing the 13 inch base model so the I believe the i5 13 inch base model and
0:36:34They're claiming throttling on this, but if you look at the Intel power gadget graph
0:36:37Intel power gadget is this little app that you can run from Intel that shows you
0:36:42the frequency and wattage and temperature of your processor in a little graph as
0:36:46As you run benchmarks to do things so you can see whether throttling or not you can see how much wattage
0:36:51It's drawing you can see how hot it's getting but what they're showing with Intel power gadget the 13 inch is
0:36:56Maintaining at or above its base clock speed it did below it for like a second
0:37:02But that's it like the whole rest of their benchmark it it is hovering above you can see like there's like a gray line
0:37:07That shows where it is like it's hovering above that so the 13 inch doesn't appear to have this problem in this base model configuration
0:37:14Unfortunately we don't have more tests yet of the higher
0:37:17configuration of the 13 or the lower config of the 15
0:37:19So it's kind of hard to know if this is a problem with all these or some of these or none of these
0:37:23hopefully by next week we'll have more information, but
0:37:28When properly working these processors should be able to maintain at least their base clock no matter what and then as
0:37:36thermals allow be able to go between the base clock and the turbo boost max speed as they kind of
0:37:42Sit at or near that thermal ceiling during load and the problem with this 15 inch is that?
0:37:48It can't even sustain its base clock like the 15 inch i9 according to these reports from these
0:37:54multiple people now is that it can't even sustain the base clock after a very short time and
0:38:00That means something is really wrong that like that is not normal that is a major problem
0:38:06Well wasn't that true also of the previous 15 when you plugged in an external monitor its base clock went down, right?
0:38:13So it's not as if this is unprecedented, but but it wouldn't yeah, so I I run into that problem last summer
0:38:17Where yeah, but this was not talked about that much, but I believe the base clock was like
0:38:242.4 or something and it would base it would clock itself down to 2.0 something like that
0:38:28What yeah when when an external monitor was was connected it would just like the base clock would just get reduced
0:38:35Automatically and it and I heard from a couple people on Twitter about it
0:38:40I checked mine. It did it too, and I had the maxed out 15 X from last year from from 2017 and
0:38:45It did it and it sucked and you know it
0:38:49I wouldn't have probably noticed if I didn't if people didn't point it out to me, so sorry for everybody who I just ruined your CPU
0:38:55People don't expect that those people expect when I'm plugged into power like at my desk
0:39:01That's when I'll get the maximum power out of my laptop because hey everything's plugged in you don't have to worry about draining your battery
0:39:06Everything should be fine, but it's not true because heat is your other enemy
0:39:10It doesn't matter that you're plugged in actually you're getting worse performance than if you weren't connected to your big monitor
0:39:14yeah, and that's that to me like
0:39:17Laptops in in some ways they make better desktops than ever you know in set like connectivity is better than ever
0:39:24External bandwidth external monitor support better than ever
0:39:27But it seems like the thermal situation just getting worse over time like the where they're even more annoying
0:39:32Thermally because they keep getting thinner and thinner and thinner and smaller and smaller, but the the processor
0:39:37Like the the max TDP and these processors is not going down
0:39:41There is one difference that I noticed looking through the Intel spec sheets between the two years
0:39:46The 15 inch CPUs they they have a TDP of 45 watts, and that's that's unchanged between the years
0:39:51But there's something on Intel spec sheets called configurable TDP down, and they explain this as basically
0:39:57laptop manufacturers are able to
0:40:00Set the processor to actually have a lower TDP than 45 watts if they want to and last year CPU could be set as low
0:40:07As 35 watts the 2018 doesn't have that option. It doesn't list configurable TDP down is available anymore
0:40:13So maybe Apple was configuring it down last year this year
0:40:18They can't because until doesn't offer anymore
0:40:20so they just let it fly and you know are seeing what happens which is not a good thing if that's what's going on here and
0:40:26This probably won't affect the 13 inch because you know a 13 inch CPU is a 28 watt TDP
0:40:32Same for last year in this year
0:40:35They both have configurable TDP down and this year the TDP down is actually lower last year was 23 watts this year
0:40:42It's 20 watts so
0:40:44This is probably not affecting the 13, but again. We don't have enough data to tell yet
0:40:48So are we getting angry about this well?
0:40:51I mean
0:40:51It's like like I said last year's did the same thing that you could decide to be angry about or not well
0:40:57I'm - there's a huge difference in degree though
0:40:59Yeah
0:41:00But it depends it depends on what you're doing though not going from like 2.4 to 2.0
0:41:03Or whatever it was is very different than going from 2.9 to 800 megahertz
0:41:07But yeah, but the 800 megahertz one like it's really mostly going from 2.9 to 2.5 with with the the base thing on this
0:41:14It depends on what they're doing like this is a prime 95 benchmark like I don't know of what anyone is ever going to do
0:41:19Is gonna get you down to 800 megahertz?
0:41:21But I think as low as the thing could possibly go that sounds like a situation
0:41:23Where you're really maxing everything out, and maybe it's also hot and maybe you also have a bad
0:41:29You know thermal solution in your thing, but the thing is with all laptops
0:41:32they're actually great if you remember the original MacBook Air it had these thermal problems as well and
0:41:37And 800 megahertz was as low as it could go that was back when I believe it was still called speed step the frequency adjusting
0:41:43Technology back there. Yeah, the max was 1.2 or something so it was one point
0:41:47I think it was 1.6, but it was going down to 800 megahertz yeah, so anyway like laptops are always
0:41:53potentially thermally compromised they all come with the ability to slow themselves down when they get hot and
0:41:58to some degree
0:42:01When you sell a laptop you can't control exactly how hot it's going to get people use them on their laps on top of a
0:42:07puffy comforter on top of a pillow and it blocks all the vents and the things get super hot and basically the machines have to
0:42:11Protect themselves right if people don't know or don't care about that then their computer is running at half speed and tough luck right?
0:42:17But in reasonable conditions on top of a desk at like a room temperature room
0:42:21You know like Margo said they should be able to
0:42:24Maybe not max out everything because I think it's a high demand to say max out everything on the GPU and all the cores and every
0:42:32Special unit like I feel like if you do some sort of
0:42:34There's a name for this kind of test would like to try to melt my CPU type tests where everything is super hot I?
0:42:39You probably just you're gonna throttle
0:42:42But just using all the cores like you're gonna in a laptop
0:42:47You know and a laptop of the size and shape of Apple's ones just using all the cores
0:42:50It should be able to sustain that because it can with four cores as you noted in that little graph showing the four core things
0:42:55Staying above its base frequency and ping-ponging back and forth, but never going below base
0:42:59That's possible with six why buy a six core machine if
0:43:04That's why I was literally slower than the four car ones because it was throttling lower the the four car one could maintain its base
0:43:10And this one was going well below its base and taking longer, so why are you paying for six cores like oh?
0:43:16I have a lot of multi-threaded work. Well is it actually gonna complete your multi-threaded work faster
0:43:19Do you keep the thermostat at like you know 52 degrees then maybe it'll do it, but so this seems like not a great situation
0:43:27But it really depends on what you're doing are you
0:43:31You're using all six cores in bursts of 25 seconds
0:43:35Then you're probably fine, and it probably will never throttle right are you running three hour render jobs?
0:43:41Maybe consider different solution because it seems like unless you work in a freezer
0:43:44Which again you shouldn't do?
0:43:47It's it might run slower than the four core um what does what does Apple's like?
0:43:52Return thing like if you just don't like it for any reason. It's like 14 days. Yeah 14
0:43:56Yeah, so this would be good if anyone's buying one of these like again
0:44:00It's like laptops are not the ideal Pro machines in many situations for a variety of reasons and also why?
0:44:06Apple's particular trade-offs especially for the 15-inch are perhaps not ideal because they could have made a much thicker computer with better cooling and yada yada
0:44:14And Intel's behind there's lots of reasons
0:44:16But anyway bottom line is if you're wondering should I buy one of the machines or not?
0:44:20Well is are all six cores going to be useful to me buy one try your typical workload
0:44:26See how long it takes and if it's slower than a four core return it and get a four core
0:44:32I would also I mean I disagree with you a little bit in the sense that I
0:44:36Don't think we should just blindly accept
0:44:39These limitations of like well it advertises these high specs, and you're paying for these high specs in fact
0:44:47You're paying quite a lot for these high specs, and you're buying it expecting these high specs
0:44:51And then oh you actually can't use you you're not gonna get this performance if you actually try to use it all at once like
0:44:57that to me
0:44:59Maybe at best is acceptable in a consumer line
0:45:03But when when you're talking about the highest end models for that are specifically advertised at doing sustained pro kind of work
0:45:11I don't think we should settle for
0:45:13The resources that you buy and that are advertised and then and the performance is advertised
0:45:18Not actually being available all the time like turbo boost as I mentioned like turbo boost is is optional
0:45:24And I understand that like that may make sense that like maybe under certain
0:45:28Situations you can't use the turbo boost speed because that's what turbo boost is if you could always use the speed
0:45:35They would just raise the base clock so
0:45:37but you know so
0:45:38Understood like turbo boost is is an optional bonus when you can get it
0:45:42But if you can't maintain the base clock that to me. It's basically it's false advertising
0:45:48It's like you design this machine you sold me this machine that says it can do xyz
0:45:53But it can't actually do x and y and z at the same time like that or you know
0:46:00It can't do x and y at full speed if I plug it into a monitor like that which is a configuration specifically advertise and promote
0:46:06So like that to me is not good enough for a pro machine again at best
0:46:11If it's acceptable anywhere, which is a big if it should be acceptable only in
0:46:17consumer and low-end machines
0:46:19Not in something advertised marketed and priced as a pro machine desktop or laptop
0:46:25My exception was only if you're using literally all the hardware so not just all six cores
0:46:30but also the h.264 decoder and also every single execution unit on the GPU at the same time and the reason I say that is because
0:46:37There's not enough cooling in
0:46:40certainly an Apple laptop size case
0:46:43to be able to sustain a powerful GPU and all the cores and all the ancillary execution units and
0:46:50Massive IO and like just light up everything like have you ever seen those things where they try to say, you know
0:46:54Can you use can you keep all the pipelines fed?
0:46:56Can you do run all the SIMD units all the intergenerates all the floating-point units all the GPU execution cores?
0:47:03Like can you actually run and you know everything it wants to see like basically can you melt this thing?
0:47:08Can you a completely artificial no real-world type scenario custom-designed heat?
0:47:14Generating thing on all components because it's not representative of most real workloads probably any real
0:47:20It's more of a torture test to make sure to test your cooling solution, right?
0:47:24And I think there is no laptop available with a powerful discrete GPU and a six core
0:47:29CPU that has sufficient cooling that isn't like the size of you know a
0:47:34Giant brick because it's just too much power output right that these machines are designed
0:47:38Like they're over provision, right?
0:47:41But they there's no way that they can cool all that stuff in that case with those fans
0:47:45So they're relying on the fact that you're never going to be running all of it at once and that's the only place I'm giving
0:47:51The exception if you light up everything I could say even on a pro machine and it with this size and weight trade-off
0:47:57It's just not gonna happen. But if you're just using the CPU and not really isn't GPU. Yes
0:48:01It should be able to sustain that and if you plug in a monitor and it auto throttles down from 2.4 to 2
0:48:06That's bogus - right. The only exception I was allowing for is that like
0:48:10There there is a certain point of a trap
0:48:12Like I said using it on your lap and a pillow or something like that like or in just a very hot room
0:48:16You don't have air conditioning this room that I'm in right now. It's probably 85, right this
0:48:20You can't control the entire environment
0:48:23So if you're in an 85 degree room and you think thermal throttles and you're super angry about it
0:48:26Try it in a 68 degree room and it doesn't thermal throttle
0:48:29Are you okay with it then like the bottom line is the laptops are a compromise and
0:48:33Part of the way they get to this compromise. We talked about with battery life - is there over provision on battery life?
0:48:39They assume you're not going to be doing
0:48:41Big expensive stuff with CPU and GPU all the time
0:48:44The battery life is like most of the time you just be tooling around and cores are blipping here and there right and you get the
0:48:49Advertised battery life, but if you do any serious work for a certain period of time you don't that's how they get
0:48:54That's that that's how laptops are made these days
0:48:56That's what the trade-offs are which again argues for if you really want to have a laptop and you really need to do all that stuff
0:49:01Apple needs to make different trade-offs for a laptop for you or you just get a desktop, but I
0:49:07Maybe I guess maybe that's just repeating what you said in terms of like the the pro thing or whatever
0:49:12But Apple's version of pro is super thin and light
0:49:14And you just can't have super thin light with that CPU with that GPU without
0:49:19throttling in some scenario
0:49:23I think the and again I'm saying if you light up everything
0:49:26Just that six cores like a Final Cut Pro export that uses all six course or an Xcode compile or something
0:49:32that needs to be run at base clock speed and I
0:49:35Wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of related class-action lawsuit about this eventually because this seems
0:49:42More more class-action lawsuit friendly than the next term monitor thing
0:49:47But we have to see more data because if you can get them to go in less than five minutes if you can get them
0:49:51To go down to 800 megahertz. That's class-action lawsuit territory. But then again, maybe it's just this one guy
0:49:56I got a dud so we'll have to wait and see I
0:49:58Wouldn't expect a lawsuit honestly because like you can get lost
0:50:02It's over like iPhone batteries because everyone buys iPhones that and it's so much more like
0:50:07You know headline grabbing to to do a lawsuit about that
0:50:10You can get the lawsuit about the broken keyboards only just barely started because they affect it affected
0:50:17All of the laptops this is looks like it this looks like it's probably only gonna be affecting the highest end
0:50:23Configuration of their highest end laptop that's brand new right now. So I'm guessing
0:50:28Either it will never have a lawsuit or it will be like three years from now, but that's very unlikely for this
0:50:33You know, I think I see your point about like tests. They're designed to max out everything and to heat things up
0:50:40Although I don't necessarily I don't think I necessarily agree that that's that those should be permitted to fail
0:50:46But when you look at like, you know, these tests are not throttling only under prime 95
0:50:51These are throttling under Final Cut Pro as you mentioned so like that is not only a legitimate workload
0:50:56But it's literally one of the workloads they promote this machine and market this machine to do right
0:51:01So like the fact that this machine can't handle its
0:51:04Flagship marketing workload without having thermal issues is a pretty serious problem
0:51:10Now whether it affects you as a customer of these I don't you know, it's up to you
0:51:15But this is a problem that needs to be addressed
0:51:18Like it's not this isn't just gonna we can't just hand move this away and say well, this is an inherent problem with laptops
0:51:24They all do this. You're holding it wrong. Like that's not gonna be the solution here
0:51:28the solution here is gonna be like this configuration this machine at least has a serious design problem and
0:51:34Whether they address it with faster fans, which by the way, congratulations and your machine just got louder. Is that really better?
0:51:42Faster fans don't seem to help like that's what they were maxing the fans, you know
0:51:46Artificially making the fans run at max the whole time just to see does that solve the problem? The answer is no
0:51:50Well, it helped the problem. It didn't didn't make the problem go away help but didn't but didn't solve right? I mean so it
0:51:55Nerds tend to be annoyed by like number on box not equal number in real life
0:52:00But the real the real test is is it faster than the four core?
0:52:05Because if it's not faster than the four core, then what is the point of this machine again for your workload?
0:52:09So like that that's all that really matters if it was faster than the four core but not but it still didn't match the numbers
0:52:15In the box people would be angry because like oh it's supposed to do what it says in the box and you could probably sue
0:52:18them over and everything right but
0:52:20Practically speaking ignore all the nerd stuff if the six core doesn't do your work thing faster than the four core
0:52:27Why would anyone ever buy the six core?
0:52:29We are sponsored this week by Jamf now Jamf now makes it easy to set up manage and protect your Apple devices
0:52:37Start securing your business today setting up your first three devices for free at Jamf com slash ATP
0:52:43It's easy to keep track of your own Mac iPad and iPhone
0:52:46What about the other Apple devices in your business as a business grows? So does its digital inventory?
0:52:53This makes it exponentially harder to manage everyone's Apple devices across the whole staff
0:52:58This is especially true
0:52:59If you have any remote employees with Jamf now, you can manage your digital inventory
0:53:05Distribute Wi-Fi settings email settings deploy apps
0:53:08Protect your company data and even remotely lock or wipe a device as needed from anywhere
0:53:14Jamf now manage the devices so you can focus on your business instead. It's super easy. There's no IT experience needed
0:53:22So our listeners can start securing your business today by setting up your first three devices for free forever
0:53:29That's three devices for free forever
0:53:31And once you have more than three devices, you can add more for just two dollars per month per device super easy transparent pricing
0:53:38So create your free account today at Jamf com slash ATP to set up those first three devices once again
0:53:44J a m f dot-com slash ATP
0:53:47Jamf now for managing setting up and protecting your Apple devices. Thank you so much to Jamf now for sponsoring our show
0:53:58Moving away from the thermal thing for at least a moment now that we have all the benchmarks of all the different CPU configurations. I
0:54:04Honestly, I'm kind of disappointed by how much faster the six core isn't than the four core in the 13 inch
0:54:11Like it is faster and it's not you know, it's faster by like a decent amount
0:54:15but it's not it isn't as much faster as I would have expected before I saw, you know, all the all the
0:54:22actual benchmarks of these different options like to me
0:54:26The 13 inch in this generation looks like the one to get if you don't need a GPU
0:54:30Like or this or the screen space of the 15 like because it's the 13 inch
0:54:34Again, we still are missing most good like long-term benchmarks. I still have no clue on battery life of either of these machines
0:54:41But like they both got the bigger battery
0:54:45But only the 15 got the DDR for RAM to eat some of that power
0:54:50So the bigger battery presumably is also to address, you know
0:54:53The fact that these CPUs have more cores than they probably should at their process size
0:54:56But you know, it's still the same TDP. So, you know that might not matter. So basically
0:55:01Battery life is still a big question mark
0:55:04But it sure looks like the 13 is the one to get if your needs can be solved by it
0:55:09Yeah, but sometimes people want 15 inches
0:55:11I wonder if there'll be a market for people to manually disable two cores on their 15 inch to get
0:55:18One thing I thought it to like so I for on my 2015 actually I wrote a blog post with us forever ago
0:55:23There's a utility
0:55:25Called turbo boost switcher Pro that it actually quotes my blog post on its product page, I guess but I ran tests and and basically
0:55:33disabling turbo boost with with a utility on my
0:55:372015 MacBook Pro and to see like what kind of effect does it have on performance and battery life? It's actually it's a it's a pretty
0:55:43interesting and useful test
0:55:45And and the utility is such that if you get the pro version it can automatically switch for you so you can do things like
0:55:51run
0:55:53without turbo boost whenever you're on battery and then when you're plugged in enable it again and the difference is is
0:55:59pretty striking
0:56:01You do lose noticeable performance like in in deep bench. I lost something like
0:56:0620 or 30 percent of my performance
0:56:09but I also gained like 20 or 30 percent more battery life and the laptop became
0:56:15Way cooler under load like it's a pretty big difference because not having turbo boost
0:56:21Makes it when it's properly engineered in its thermal system makes it stay way below the TDP even under load
0:56:28So it's actually a really nice option to have if you're trying to max things out
0:56:33Or if you don't always need the massive amount of power you bought but you want to be able to turn it on selectively
0:56:37The at the time when I when I had the 2016 and 2017
0:56:42This utility I don't think worked with them and I'm curious to revisit that and see like if it works with them now if it
0:56:47works with the new ones because
0:56:49Being able to manage that could be really useful also
0:56:52You know it's it's long since overdue for Apple to add low power mode to the net to a new version of Mac OS and
0:57:00An easy way to implement that in addition to you know like things like background service stuff and time machine slowing down and everything else
0:57:08easy win number one is like on the 15 inch force the integrated GPU to be used as much as possible and
0:57:14Turn off turbo boost like that if you're gonna do a low power mode like it actually is pretty compelling to have that option
0:57:21I wish it was available to users on all the machines in some way even even if it's just exposed to some API and apps
0:57:27Have to do it like it is it is kind of nice running without turbo boost sometimes
0:57:31Anyway, the other thing I'm were a little worried about with these with the thermal situation here
0:57:37Is these machines are brand new?
0:57:40now over time the thermal paste is gonna start cracking and become less effective the
0:57:47Fans and and vents and heatsinks are gonna fill with dust
0:57:51Things are gonna start getting a little bit out of whack little bit of alignment over time the cooling system of most computers
0:57:57Especially laptops becomes less efficient
0:57:59So what's gonna happen if these are barely holding on today when they're brand new what's gonna happen when they're like two years old
0:58:07and
0:58:08You know normally you'd expect like at that point you start maybe here in the fan a little bit more on your laptop
0:58:12And you know maybe it runs a little bit hotter, and you don't really know why this
0:58:16There's no headroom here for that and that I think worries me also long term for these machines
0:58:21Thank you ever also you mentioned it a few times is the the extra power for the RAM and the bigger battery extra power means
0:58:28More heat from the RAM right there's a lot
0:58:30You've got two more cores
0:58:33You've got a you know a big GPU and that extra power going to that RAM and also possibly the four terabyte SSD if you get
0:58:40That option that's more heat in a case that really has basically the same cooling solution as before those two little fans and the heat
0:58:47Pipes there's not really a lot of wiggle room for what you can do in there
0:58:51If only they could make a case which was a little bit thicker or maybe had
0:58:55I don't know more cooling don't have a millimeter to spare wouldn't that be amazing
0:59:01Like so next the next round of laptops the next generation in addition to potentially having more ports, and you know
0:59:07Bring back magsafe all of our wonderful dreams of what they could potentially do to make everybody happy right anyway fantasies whatever
0:59:14But one thing they can actually definitely do and they totally should is have an option at the top end for a thicker laptop
0:59:20Thicker lot not that much thicker. It'll be thicker. It will be heavier
0:59:24You don't want it if you want lightweight and thin but make one make one thick heavy and powerful option right because
0:59:30If that laptop you could put a cooling solution
0:59:33Maybe that wouldn't throttle with a six core right and it would automatically be faster than this one even with the exact same hardware in
0:59:39It you can put bigger batteries in and get more battery life
0:59:41You'd have room on the side for a 10 gig ethernet adapter or whatever you know like
0:59:45That's a product that they don't make anymore the 17 inch used to fill that role had a PC card slot crying out loud
0:59:51But it's gone. It doesn't have to be a 17 inch laptop, but it could people buy 17 inch laptops
0:59:58It's a small market, but it's there right so that
1:00:00That's a you know and I don't I didn't expect them to come with that now, but for the next generation
1:00:04It's something they should definitely consider. They've kind of done that on the phones
1:00:08Accidentally like by making all the screens so much bigger
1:00:12And it's like wow we have so much more room for battery now and an OLED screen takes less power and voila the iPhone
1:00:1710 has pretty good battery life like they backed into it somehow
1:00:20Maybe they we need to find some sort of similar trend for them to follow in the laptop market to somehow make a thicker laptop
1:00:27Alright, we'll see how this all plays out, but I don't know it's disappointing
1:00:32It's disappointing that you know after all this time of not really get why I guess wasn't that long
1:00:39But it feels like it's been a long time without updates that you know we're finally given this this
1:00:45Golden apple to consume this this wonderful golden egg to use and it's still got problems
1:00:52It's still not as gold as we thought it's gold-plated perhaps
1:00:55But it's Rose gold not it. Yeah, it's rose gold
1:00:58honestly like this
1:01:01What they're doing with the laptops now. I don't love this generation, which I've made very clear
1:01:06But they have updated it every year. They have you they have not skipped a generation of CPU. That's available
1:01:14They are updating these machines on
1:01:16The schedule that we want them to be updating the machines on they've and and the schedule they used to always update their machines on
1:01:24Like we've been saying we've been complaining for years that lines were getting neglected
1:01:29Entire CPU generations were being skipped and with the laptops. They're hitting the wall now. They are hitting every generation
1:01:37They have updates they had they released this dumb generation in 2016. They made another one
1:01:41That's exactly as dumb in
1:01:432017 and the here's one that's a little bit less dumb in some ways and more dumb others in 2018 like they're doing exactly what?
1:01:49We wanted them to do in the sense that they are updating these laptops every year. That's great
1:01:54the only problem is that they're continuing to use a
1:01:57Series of hardware generation like in its physical design and other choices that has a lot of problems and a lot of downsides
1:02:05I was hoping that
1:02:07This year's revision would be the one where they changed the body design again
1:02:12Even though that would be premature relative to their previous, you know durations of how long they they use these things
1:02:17I was hoping they would move one up if they could you know for you know
1:02:23For all the complaints with the current one and instead they address the complaints in different ways and that's fine
1:02:28But I really hope the next generation that actually changes the body style
1:02:32Really takes into account
1:02:35customer feedback from this generation
1:02:37Because you know, there's there's this romantic idea
1:02:40that
1:02:42Apple just dictates what it knows we actually want and never actually take customer feedback and doesn't really care what we think because they know best
1:02:49And I think some people at Apple actually do work that way
1:02:53but I think that's mostly in the past it seems like the
1:02:57Last couple of years like since the Mac Pro roundtable and and the pro workflows group and and the iMac Pro and things like that
1:03:05I think they they seem to have a different mindset now a much more healthy mindset of oh crap
1:03:11we were like in space and designing things with immense hubris and
1:03:17That that were getting increasingly distant from what our customers actually wanted and needed
1:03:22and
1:03:24It seems like they have course-corrected
1:03:27But when you course-correct it takes a while for like the new products and new changes and stuff to actually get out into the world
1:03:34You know if they if they just you know, they decided to make a new Mac Pro
1:03:37Well like a year and a half ago now and it's probably not gonna be out for another year
1:03:42You know and that's that's a pretty big thing
1:03:44They you know
1:03:47It took them probably like two or three years for the iMac Pro to come out it they were probably
1:03:51Developing this horrible generation of laptops for two or three years before it came out in 2016
1:03:55I think this course correction has happened
1:03:58I think we have enough evidence to suggest as we mentioned, you know
1:04:01As I mentioned on Twitter as John mentioned a couple weeks ago, like the Mac Renaissance
1:04:05It does seem to be happening. It does seem like they have turned the ship. They are on the right track
1:04:10We think it sure does look that way
1:04:12but we haven't seen the result of that in the laptop line yet and
1:04:17So it kind of remains a big mystery as a whether they have Christ of course in the laptops or not
1:04:22I I was hoping to see it this year. We didn't I sure hope we see it next year
1:04:26by the way related to getting getting what you what's printed on the box or whatever and
1:04:32consumer expectations I think someone in earlier in the chat had mentioned that you know
1:04:36It's just not how the world works if I buy a car with 300 horsepower. It always has 300 horsepower
1:04:40I have some bad news to you every year about how cars work
1:04:44Although I have some good news sometimes after you use a car for a while. It has more horsepower than when you bought it
1:04:49So but anyway, no one dinos their cars and then certainly they're not measuring the horsepower at the wheels
1:04:53And there's all sorts of other things you don't want to know about
1:04:55So just continue to think that your car gets exactly through entered horsepower as advertised that they drive it off the lot
1:05:01You'll be fine at every speed
1:05:03It's also unsafe at every speed am I right anyway
1:05:07Let's talk about something that's really gonna cheer us up since we've been a little sad lately
1:05:13John what's going on with your photo books these days?
1:05:16Yeah, I found out about this on Twitter
1:05:18I think which is part of the reason I wanted to put in the show is a public service announcement to other people
1:05:25Apple if you didn't know has a thing in their photos application where you can take your photos and you can order a
1:05:31Book like a bound like hardcover book with your photos printed inside them, which is a nice thing to do
1:05:37They're kind of expensive but they make nice gifts and they're a good way to
1:05:41They're a good nice alternative to making prints and then putting the prints in it for a while. You just make an actual book
1:05:45It's really neat
1:05:47They're ending that service
1:05:49and the way you would find out about this in the way that the person on Twitter found out about it is they went to
1:05:54Order a book and it photos pops up a dialogue and says hey just so you know
1:05:58We're not gonna do this anymore. And after September 1st, we're not going to take any more orders for books
1:06:04so if you didn't I wouldn't have found out unless I had gone to make a book right and normally I make a book like
1:06:08once a year after I come back from my you know, Long Island vacation and I have photos and I make a book that's when I
1:06:14Would have seen that dialogue and that would have been very close to September 1st
1:06:17So I'm glad I saw this on Twitter. Thank you to whoever put it up there
1:06:22I'm sad that they're ending this program
1:06:25because I have I've been printing books for my beach vacations and I've been going back in time for past years and printing a book like
1:06:32I started from 2017 then I went backward to 2016 15 14 working my way back with your time
1:06:37I made a book for my parents for a Christmas gift. I did a book of our Disney vacation
1:06:42I did all sorts of stuff like that. But but you know, it's kind of like whenever you get around to it
1:06:46It's kind of a time-consuming thing and whatever now that I know that they're canceling them. I'm making books like crazy
1:06:51I was I think I've ordered like seven books and I'm not done
1:06:57I'm still going like because I got I have to race back to you know
1:06:59- I have to do all the years we went on beach vacations and all the major vacations and just I gotta get and
1:07:06Maybe asking why why bother by it?
1:07:08Just get your book from another place Apple's not the only company that makes photo books tons of places make photo books
1:07:13photos has even has a thing where it's like a third-party plug-in system a terrible terrible third-party plug-in system for
1:07:19Like I was the thing not smug mug snapfish or whatever
1:07:24Can make a little plug-in thing where you can order a book using the photos app
1:07:28But if we printed it snapfish or whatever, so you get different pricing you get different layout options
1:07:32But all those plugins are pretty terrible
1:07:35And I've had books printed not me personally about my wife and for school things and stuff at other other
1:07:40Businesses and and they're fine, but the Apple ones are very appley like they're very
1:07:46elegant and simple and
1:07:49I'm not gonna say tasteful because it just depends on your taste like this snapfish ones are tasteful, too
1:07:54It's just it's just if you like put it this way if you like Johnny I've in his white room and all the featureless
1:08:00Glass and aluminum hardware you like these photo books, and that's that's the aesthetic I go for in my books the layout I use is
1:08:08It's a little misleading because if you look at the different layouts
1:08:12They have the app is terrible at previewing them, but one of them like the big picture
1:08:15I want pictures to be big so I'm gonna pick that one don't you what you want to pick is called garden blooms
1:08:20Which doesn't make any sense, but just trust me it gives the most layout to say
1:08:24Most of my pages are full page full bleed edge to edge top to bottom right to left photo
1:08:31Right, but you also have the option to do two photos vertically or three photos vertically like you have lots of different options of just basically
1:08:38Slicing up the page into regions. That's the way I like my books to me. I haven't found another
1:08:42photo book maker that has layouts like that, but
1:08:46You know even worse to someone who is you know very picky about these type of things it
1:08:52Will there's no way it's gonna match my existing books. It won't be exactly the same dimensions
1:08:55It won't look the same so I need to go and print tons and tons of books before September 1st
1:09:01go through all my photos and just slap them together and throw them into a book and get everything printed and I'm really sad about
1:09:08it because
1:09:09Like certainly I can't print the books for next year and the year after in the year after right and so I'm gonna have this
1:09:15Discontinuity my beautiful collection of books that are all like nice and neat in the same size and everything and then it's just gonna be
1:09:20the new books printed by somebody else
1:09:24I don't I don't blame Apple for a stop like I'm sure they don't make a lot of money on this
1:09:29But most people probably don't even know this feature exists
1:09:31But if you've never tried this feature
1:09:33You know give it a try before it's gone like I said the books are actually kind of expensive
1:09:37Especially if you put in a lot of photos in but they look pretty nice
1:09:40And they're you know they're for gifts and stuff. They're interesting and unique like it's not like you
1:09:47Just bought something off the shelf if someone gets something. They don't understand how you made this amazing one-off book
1:09:51You'll be impressive to them
1:09:53And I find them
1:09:55You know a little bit more pleasant than like the old style photo album with a bunch of
1:09:59printed photos shoved into little clear sleeves or whatever so
1:10:04Yeah, I don't know. That's it. I'm just I'm just sad and and I'm spending hundreds of dollars on books
1:10:09I can't wait until the official announcement on September 2nd that the demand for photo books has ramped up so much
1:10:17Mostly to John Sarah to say we're bringing them back
1:10:21There's been the spike of usage in Massachusetts for some reason
1:10:24Yeah, I do have some complaints about them like my main complaint books well the software for putting your software for putting your photos
1:10:31Into books in photos is grim. It is real. I played complained about it before it is like
1:10:36You just do like a master class on how to be a frustrating piece of software
1:10:42It's like a simple job of taking photos and putting them on two pages is made so difficult by bugs by misfeatured
1:10:47But I just so much about it is terrible. I can't wait for you to use one of the like the web-based ones
1:10:52The web-based ones destroy it really because usually they're real bad
1:10:56All right
1:10:57I'll give my favorite example is it has like that has a
1:11:01Photos along the bottom and a tiny little strip that you can't make much bigger
1:11:04And you can't you can't like spacebar or zoom or whatever to see the pictures bigger
1:11:08So if you have two similar looking photos good luck figuring out which one is which without actually placing them
1:11:11But set that aside you got photos on the bottom and in a horizontally scrolling
1:11:15one one height just one single row of you know horizontally scrolling forever right and
1:11:20You scroll to find the picture you want and you drag it up onto like one of the pages and a little book thing
1:11:26Right and it loses your scroll position in the bottom thing. Oh, you know let me get that next picture
1:11:31Oh, no you now you're back to one end again, so now horizontally scroll
1:11:34Which is everyone's favorite thing to do horizontally scroll to find where you are drag it up up nope you've lost your scroll position again
1:11:40That's just basics. That's just like it's there to torture you so you can do it
1:11:44You eventually scroll back and find the place where you were don't get confused
1:11:46It's it's a bad interface, but anyway the actual books that you get printed my main complaint about them
1:11:52Is they don't do a good job of aligning the dust jacket on the spine of the book right?
1:11:58So you know dust jacket work they wrap around or whatever and they don't they let you do printing
1:12:01I think they make you do printing on the on the spine of the book that says you know whatever Long Island 2016
1:12:06If you look at where the printing is on all my different books as I sit in there on the shelf
1:12:11It's all over the map because they fold the dust jacket onto the books
1:12:15They don't quite get the text lined up with the spine
1:12:18And that kind of annoys me especially given how much money else
1:12:21But literally over $100 for a single one of these books sometimes
1:12:24Because I'm a crazy person and I max out the number of pages
1:12:28They're willing to put in and they charge you like a dollar extra each page, so it adds up fast. Don't do that
1:12:32But they look really nice anyone wants to come into my house check them out. I'll show you
1:12:37Yeah, I've never I've never seen one, but I've always heard not even just from you
1:12:41I've always heard that like they really are high quality like it is kind of sad when an
1:12:46option that goes away cuz like we have like TIFF gets a
1:12:49Book for of our Instagram like family pictures every year, so you know every year
1:12:55we have like the same little like you know and I think it's blur or somebody it's one of the big one of those big
1:12:59companies and
1:13:01and
1:13:02Like there was some threat they might go out of business a few years ago
1:13:05And I remember we kind of we kind of freak out really cool, but what if we have to like?
1:13:08the size of our book would change and we have to find someone else who integrates with Instagram and and it's like
1:13:14It was actually you know fairly scary and disruptive and the good thing is they didn't go out of business
1:13:19And so we're still using them, but like I remember like that was like the same thing
1:13:23You just said like you know the spines aren't gonna all line up. They're gonna be different
1:13:26It's gonna be the old kind of book and then a new kind of book like
1:13:29There's something to be said for that and also
1:13:31You know if you look at Apple today
1:13:34If they didn't have this service already and and somebody and there was like some rumor that came out
1:13:39That Apple was going to launch a photo book printing service today
1:13:43We would laugh it out of the room because like it would seem ridiculous that today's Apple would be like printing you
1:13:49Photobooks for $80 well they do make leather sleeves for your laptops
1:13:54I think people would just file it mentally with one of those little things that Apple does for people who have more money than cents
1:14:02another reason Apple felt that it
1:14:04Should do the photo book type stuff with the I life things is that back then Apple was very big about
1:14:10We want you to have an experience that is Apple quality, and it's definitely a Steve Jobs thing
1:14:15I don't know if he said this on stage, but he could have
1:14:17We looked at the photo books that are out there, and they're all terrible we wanted one
1:14:21That's up to Apple standards, so we're doing one ourselves and now if you order a book from our software
1:14:25You'll get an Apple quality book
1:14:27I don't know if that is still true, or if it was ever true
1:14:30But that ethos that it's worth doing ourselves because to give
1:14:34The Apple quality experience we can't trust the third party to do this if we outsource it or use some vendor which of course
1:14:42They are like it's not like they're doing this themselves
1:14:43They're on Apple factories or whatever
1:14:45But like that they they are able to assure
1:14:47The quality of the product that you get so you get a Mac and you get I life and you get a photo book it
1:14:53Will be an Apple quality photo book right down to the Apple logo
1:14:56That's on the book, but then you can also opt to not have on the book because that's just the kind of company Apple is
1:15:02Yes, they will watermark your thing with a little Apple and that not watermark your pictures
1:15:06But put a little Apple logo on the back, but you can say you know what Apple don't do that
1:15:10And that's what you should do by the way tell them not to do it because you don't want an Apple logo on your books
1:15:13so
1:15:14I'm not sure that Apple is entirely gone
1:15:17But certainly the Apple that would do it just because they couldn't stand the idea of any Apple customers having a less than Apple quality
1:15:24Photo book that Apple doesn't seem to exist anymore
1:15:26We are brought to you this week by Squarespace start building your website today at Squarespace.com/ATP
1:15:34Enter code ATP at checkout to get 10% off make your next move with a beautiful website from Squarespace
1:15:40Pretty much anything you'd start these days any new project or business or just a new side of you
1:15:46You want to show off to the world you're gonna want a website for that and Squarespace is by far the easiest place to make
1:15:52A website and even if someone else has asked you to make a website for them for something maybe like a group at school
1:15:56Or you know somebody at work who wants a website point them to Squarespace or start it yourself and hand it over to them
1:16:02It is so easy you'll be shocked how easy it is and how fast you can get your site up and running
1:16:07Well, even if you don't even have domain yet Squarespace now offers domain registration
1:16:10Too is you can go start to finish all in one spot if you want that Squarespace sites look
1:16:15professionally designed regardless of your skill level
1:16:18There's no coding required everything is controlled by intuitive easy-to-use visual tools. It's all drag-and-drop
1:16:24It's live previewing to what you see is what you get and if you sign up for a whole year up front
1:16:29You can get a free domain name with your site if you ever need any help Squarespace offers award-winning very friendly
1:16:3624/7 support and if you're making a site for somebody else, that's great because then that means you don't have to support it
1:16:41So check it out today for your next big project. I
1:16:44Promise you if you haven't seen Squarespace before you'll be shocked how much you can do with it
1:16:49It even complicated things you can make a store on Squarespace. That's all built-in. You can host a podcast in Squarespace
1:16:54That's all built-in. Plus if you want to just do something a little bit simpler
1:16:58Just like a few content pages you'll be done in like two seconds. You'll be shocked how great it is
1:17:02So check out today by building a free trial site. You can start that today at Squarespace.com/ATP
1:17:09And when you're ready to sign up make sure you use offer code ATP at checkout to get 10% off
1:17:15Make your next move with a beautiful website from Squarespace
1:17:18Let's do some ask ATP and
1:17:24Colin Bell Phils writes in is dedicated having a dedicated picture machine useful
1:17:30I'm thinking about getting a Nikon D
1:17:323400 and a 50 millimeter prime having interchangeable lenses and an adjustable aperture means it seems like it would be useful
1:17:37Can a camera that cheap be worth it compared to phone cameras? I don't know barely anything about the Nikon
1:17:44D 3400 that Colton is is citing here
1:17:48But I can tell you that I was really really
1:17:53worried about spending I think it was around $1,500 for my micro four-thirds camera and a
1:17:59And I think it's a 25 millimeter prime which I think is the equivalent of a 50 millimeter prime if memory serves anyways
1:18:05Yep, I when I bought this camera right before Declan was born
1:18:09I was deeply worried that I was wasting a pile of money and
1:18:14Cannot tell you I don't I genuinely don't think I can describe with words
1:18:19How thankful I am that I spent that money and that I use that camera anytime we have something that's even vaguely important
1:18:25Because the pictures that come out of my iPhone are great
1:18:29The pictures that come out of that camera by comparison are incredible
1:18:33And I'm not trying to say that this particular camera is particularly better than any other camera
1:18:38it may be quite a bit worse or better than the D 3400 and I'll let one of you guys chime in in a second and
1:18:43tell me if it is but
1:18:45having a camera that has proper glass on it and
1:18:50Find it useful to have you know interchangeable lenses, but that's not even necessary really
1:18:54But having a camera that can that can get a real wide-open aperture with really decent glass on the front of it can take
1:19:02phenomenal pictures and I am so unbelievably proud of some of the pictures I've taken of my family and a lot of that has been
1:19:09Me but a lot of that has also been the equipment and I don't think
1:19:12These same pictures would look near as good with an iPhone as they do with with my particular camera
1:19:19That's just my two cents. I suspect you guys are gonna are gonna agree with me, but let's start with you Marco
1:19:25What do you think about this?
1:19:27First of all, I love the way this question was phrased is having a dedicated picture machine useful
1:19:32Talking about a camera because I when I first read that I thought oh it does
1:19:36You know, they want to like build a computer for photo processing
1:19:39I thought the same thing like, you know because like, you know
1:19:41If you want to build a dedicated machine for Lightroom or something
1:19:45Maybe it should be a Windows PC because Lightroom runs on Windows and you can build this giant crazy monster PC
1:19:50So like that's what I thought but no it's about the camera being a picture machine
1:19:56Which is just a glorious way to phrase that
1:19:58you know having having a separate camera from your phone is
1:20:02A pain in the butt. It's simple as that
1:20:06It's it's really a pain in the butt
1:20:08You have to you have this other thing you have to carry
1:20:10You have to buy it to begin with you got you got to buy accessories for it
1:20:13You got to buy batteries and chargers. You got to keep it charged
1:20:16It's never charged when you want it to be charged if you don't use it that often
1:20:19You have to maintain it
1:20:21You have to do firmware updates sometimes if you ever have to transfer the photos off of it onto your computer or phone or iPad
1:20:28It's kind of a pain. It's kind of slow, you know
1:20:31There are luxuries that you get with the phone camera that you don't get with any other camera
1:20:36Things like you know, obviously connectivity being able to snap picture and immediately share it without using some weirdo Wi-Fi transfer app
1:20:43Which are all terrible
1:20:45that you you get certain advantages with the
1:20:48Processing that an iPhone does you get things like automatic HDR you get things like different skin tone stuff you get certain
1:20:55Stabilizations and you get really good video with surprisingly good sound right out of the iPhone
1:21:00All these things are either absent or worse on most or all standalone cameras
1:21:05but
1:21:07Then you see the pictures and the pictures
1:21:10Make you want to take more pictures with the camera well put and it's always this constant battle because
1:21:17It never stops being a pain in the butt. I have this battle with myself. I I used my good camera
1:21:23yesterday for the first time in probably two months and
1:21:27That sucks like I should be using it more. That's it's kind of a waste
1:21:31But using a camera is inconvenient
1:21:34But when I look at what all of my like super favorite photos are photos that are so good
1:21:39That I would want to get them framed or photos that are so good that I use them as my desktop wallpapers
1:21:46Those are always shot with good cameras never with phones
1:21:50So there is certainly a quality argument on a number of fronts, you know, big cameras will just have way better resolution
1:21:56Usually they have the ability to have way better optics
1:22:01They don't always but they they have the ability to have way better way better optics what they mostly give you though besides, you know
1:22:08a much larger sensor and being able to capture more detail and lower noise and oftentimes, you know, just better everything
1:22:15They also give you flexibility in what kind of optics you're putting on them, you know with your iPhone. I
1:22:21hope you really like
1:22:24High aperture like narrow aperture 29 millimeter perspective because that's all you're getting with your iPhone
1:22:30If you happen to have an iPhone that has the 2x lens like the 7 plus 8 plus or 10 you can get
1:22:36Two choices neither of which are that useful you have your default like 29 28 millimeter one
1:22:43And then the 2x one is like a 40 or 45 millimeter one, which is like fine, but you know, it's not amazing
1:22:50It's not a not a good portrait lens, you know, it's not it's certainly not a telephoto by any means
1:22:55Neither lens is particularly wide or telephoto
1:22:59So like the iPhone basically gives you a really easy convenient
1:23:04middle of photography, it's like you can shoot like the middle
1:23:1070% of what you probably want to shoot and it'll look pretty good
1:23:13but when you when you want to do something that's outside of that that's like on the in a more specialized areas of
1:23:21optics or capabilities or quality
1:23:23You can't do that with a little tiny like, you know pinky nail sized
1:23:31Lens and sensor that probably cost $40 like you just can't
1:23:36There's no way to match the quality of a camera or the optics when you have something that small not cheap
1:23:41So phone cameras are great because they're always with you and there's lots of stuff
1:23:46You know
1:23:46That's like as the saying goes the best cameras when you have with you
1:23:48Like there are so many great photos and videos that if I didn't have a phone camera
1:23:54I would not have I would just miss because I would be in those moments
1:23:58My camera would be at home and I would just have no way to capture them and I have my phone to capture those now
1:24:04And it's great
1:24:05but
1:24:06If you really want amazing photos, you need to use a real camera usually
1:24:10So this specific question was can a camera that cheap as cheap as that icon D
1:24:163400 be worth it compared to phone cameras and this specific model. Yes, definitely because this is an APS-C sensor
1:24:23Which is just massively larger than the sensor in your iPhone
1:24:27And it's a it's a reasonably reputable brand and like so yes this camera will
1:24:33Absolutely be worth it all the things that Marco said are true, but just to make sure that you don't end up buying like a
1:24:37Camera with a tiny tiny sensor. It's like oh wow, you know this this camera doesn't take better pictures than iPhone
1:24:42That's what you're worried about this specific model the Nikon D 3400 will absolutely take better picture
1:24:48It'll be able to take pictures in situations where your phone just can't like because they just come out as a blurry mess
1:24:52Because it's like it's too dim or you'd have to use the flash and they become at all gross
1:24:55So yes, yes to the specific model with the 50 millimeter prime lens. You will take pictures. You could never take on your phone
1:25:02If you have the camera with you and you think it's worth it. Yeah, it's only like 500 bucks
1:25:07Like it's totally worth it
1:25:08Like it's a good like to see these but you have to determine like Margaret said is but will you bring it with you?
1:25:13Or we'll just sit in your house if it's in your house is doing you no good, right?
1:25:16So you have to actually bring it with you
1:25:18Like you have to come up with some kind of arrangement where you decide
1:25:20Is this a time when I'm gonna bring the big camera or no if you never bring the big camera then obviously it's not worth it
1:25:26But if you if you have occasions where you think you might want to use it
1:25:29This will be worth it in terms of the the quality that you get out of a $500 camera with an aps-c sensor. Yes
1:25:36Erin Bushnell writes, I believe Sir Cusa mentioned doing more node JS development on a semi-recent episode of ATP FM
1:25:43This was probably from like six months ago, but that's okay. What are his thoughts on what are his thoughts on nodes so far?
1:25:49What does he liked and disliked and I have I haven't written any node in a long time
1:25:53But I have done a semi reasonable amount of node for someone who never did it professionally
1:25:58So I have thoughts on this but John you were the one addressed. What do you think about node?
1:26:01Yeah, it was maybe was from six months ago, but I'm still doing node stuff as far as I'm doing any stuff. I
1:26:08Think my first impressions haven't really changed I've been using it for about a year and a half or two years now
1:26:15I'm coming from the pearl world obviously with most people aren't familiar with but it is is a particular kind of world it has a
1:26:27Lot of the things that you see in modern languages like Ruby and Python and node
1:26:32Oh their existence to things that were in pearl and pearls got like the old
1:26:37Creaky version of them, but so one of the things is very popular
1:26:40I noticed of course NPM having a common standard and a common repository
1:26:46For to package up software and reuse it which is why every node product has a million dependencies
1:26:51It's the beauty and the horror of node
1:26:54So I'm constantly comparing NPM to CPAN which is pearls like the the og
1:26:59Distributed distribution mechanism for open source software, right?
1:27:04There's it's one well-known place where everyone uploads their stuff and you know
1:27:09It's rich you know
1:27:10You can share this the old thing was like oh there must be a pearl module for that because there was the pearl module for
1:27:14Everything now people say that about node of course in the node world. There's not one node module for everything
1:27:21There's a hundred of them and 99 of them are terrible
1:27:25And they have nonsensical names because namespace solution is like the epic
1:27:30No
1:27:30One of the problems in those teams have is they made just too darn easy to contribute to contribute to CPAN
1:27:35There was enough of a hurdle that you just didn't get random stuff, but NPM is just it's too easy to contribute
1:27:41so all the sensible names are taken by crap modules that are not maintained and
1:27:44Everyone has nonsensical names for the good one
1:27:46Then it's very difficult to tell out of the 800 NPM packages that claim to do this thing which one is
1:27:51Not a virus is not written by someone who has no idea what they're doing and is actually maintained and is popular
1:27:59and you learn that through culture like oh you just sort of
1:28:01As you spend more time in the node ecosystem you learn
1:28:05Everyone knows about package X or package Y or whatever
1:28:07But it's not it's not a great system to enter into as a new person
1:28:10trying to figure that out and even the ones that are supposedly quote-unquote good the
1:28:15backward compatibility ethos is
1:28:17Very different than it was in the pearl world where they would like very rarely break backwards compatibility even when adding new features
1:28:24Whereas when I start to give an example when I started doing node, we're using mocha for testing
1:28:30I think it was mocha. I forget the specific version
1:28:32It might have been some other nonsense work, and then I took one of my original projects
1:28:37I'm like oh I should update that and run it through our new CI or whatever so I grab the project
1:28:42I'm like I should update these things. I wonder if there's many new versions
1:28:45The particular unit test thing I was doing had gone from version like 0.9
1:28:50And now it was on version 6 6.0 and in between every stage
1:28:55Well, you know 0.9 to 1.0 1.0 to 2.0. Those are all breaking
1:28:59You know the the semantic versions and those are all backwards incompatible changes, right? I
1:29:03had to
1:29:05Go through all those transitions say oh you've got a 0.9 code
1:29:09You want to change it to 1.0 do this and then you want change from 1.0 to 2.0 do this
1:29:13Oh, you want to change from 2.0 to 3.0? That's just two years. That is a little bit ridiculous
1:29:18So my two main complaints, and this is not new complaints
1:29:21Everyone who uses node has the same complaints is that there's there's too many MPM packages. Most of them are
1:29:26terrible
1:29:28almost none of them are up to the standards of the
1:29:30Well-known decades old Perl modules that I'm used to like for performing a certain function like oh
1:29:36What's what's the best node package for talking to a Pro transgress database?
1:29:40Whatever you think the best is it is worse than it worse in terms of reliability speed features comprehensibility documentation
1:29:47Standardization stability all all measures that I care about
1:29:51Everything was better in the Perl world for that perhaps not performance because Perl super slow, but you know, I mean
1:29:58So I feel kind of like a cranky old man saying you whippersnappers you're making all these nonsensical mod
1:30:03MPM packages with nonsensical names most of which are really bad and you break things too often and your documentation is bad and you
1:30:10Don't have good tests
1:30:12So yeah, I just it just makes me feel like a man but beyond that you like it
1:30:17Yeah, but no this thing is I do like it. I do like it because it's nice
1:30:20It's working it working in the language
1:30:22Like if people don't know node like it's JavaScript, right? But it's not JavaScript like it is in the browser
1:30:28It is so refreshing to be able to work with modern JavaScript standards
1:30:31It's you know, it feels like a different language. It is a different language
1:30:34Like it is nothing like writing JavaScript for the browser. It is so nice
1:30:38We don't need to use transpiling. We just you know use use ES6 straight up or like it's so much nicer and it's fast and
1:30:46Despite me complaining about all the packages. Usually there you can find something to do what you want
1:30:50Even if it just don't look at the source code
1:30:53That's my advice
1:30:53if you're holding cranky like me and you find a package that does what you want and it seems like it's pretty popular and
1:30:59Reasonably well maintained just don't look at the source because you'll get sad. But anyway
1:31:02Yeah, that's that's basically it. I
1:31:05mean I think
1:31:07Everything you said is reasonable which maybe indicates that I'm becoming a cranky old man as well
1:31:12But I mean when I was teaching myself node it was when it was getting really really popular. This was
1:31:182013 I think
1:31:22It was getting really popular and I wanted to teach myself node. And so I wrote what I call camel which is my blogging engine and
1:31:28Basically, once I wrote it I have barely touched it ever since because it's been pretty
1:31:36Foolproof and that's not a challenge before everyone tries to break my blog. It's not a challenge. I'm sure there's problems
1:31:41Yeah again, I'm sure there's problems. I'm not saying it's perfect. All I'm saying is I knew zero node
1:31:48I knew JavaScript. Okay, but I knew zero node and within like a month or something like that
1:31:53I was able to come up with an entire blogging engine. It's it's not the world's best blogging engine
1:31:59It has a lot of problems
1:32:00But it does exactly what I want it to do and exactly the way I want it to and for that
1:32:04I think it's really great and and I was I was and remain really pleased with how approachable it was
1:32:10However, I echo everything you said John that it's easy to fall into one of the many traps that are set on either side of
1:32:18The path you need to walk to you know get to have a successful node project. So I do I do quite like it
1:32:24I think it has certain uses where it's really really good and certain uses where it's not as great but by and large
1:32:32I like it a lot and and I have no regrets having used it
1:32:35Oh, we didn't mention one more thing about the about NPM security not great. They are always getting you know
1:32:43Security of the that guy pulling left pad that's not really a security issue
1:32:47But recently they had a malware thing that was added to like an ESLint
1:32:49ESLint configuration module or something like that. I don't know. Anyway, there are controls on who can upload to
1:32:56popular packages
1:32:59You know again package signing some form of authentication your github keys like it's all all the wonders of the modern open source world
1:33:06But because so everyone has so many dependencies with NPM and the dependencies are small and so distant and so deep
1:33:12It's very easy to get one package that you don't realize that like
1:33:1650% of the world uses and injects a malware into it and now you've infected a lot of people
1:33:20That's not great either
1:33:22And Marco you've never really touched it, right? I
1:33:25Wrote my first feed crawler for overcast in node what not my second first one in PHP
1:33:31Second one was node third one is the one I use now which isn't go the no one ran briefly
1:33:36But I kept having memory leaks and stuff with various like block capture problem
1:33:42You're probably unlike that was like node version zero point seven or something like the
1:33:47Language not not just the NPM packages because things change so fast
1:33:51Like what are we up to now like node node nine or something like there's a new major version node like every five minutes
1:33:56Yeah, I can't keep up like it even just hearing about like I don't even use it just hearing about it
1:34:00I can't keep up with like what the heck is going on in node or any
1:34:04JavaScript web framework and like the language they add major language features with every new every new version picks up something more from another one
1:34:12of the you know
1:34:14Specs right major important features, and it's like you're still using that sucker. They added a sink away. What are you doing?
1:34:20It's like when did they think of weight? It was like last week. It's like. Oh, they just added a sink weight. Okay, then
1:34:25All right finally Gareth Thomas writes, and I thought this was a really clever question
1:34:30you get a magical extra garage bay and
1:34:34Must fill it with the car you have
1:34:37$15,000 and may only buy a car that is 25 years old or older
1:34:42What do you choose for those of you who cannot do mental math that means 1993 or newer?
1:34:461983 or older you mean sorry yeah the test anywhere yes older I
1:34:50Will start us off it took me about four and a half seconds to figure out the answer this question
1:34:55There is only one answer this question as far as I'm concerned it is a
1:34:591990 through 1993 choose your year
1:35:02Nissan 300 ZX twin turbo because I had the non turbo edition
1:35:08In the early 2000s it was obviously quite old at the time, but I loved that car
1:35:14I still think it looks reasonably modern today. I miss that car even the naturally aspirated version
1:35:21I miss it
1:35:22And I would kind of wish I never sold it and I would definitely get a twin turbo version
1:35:27And I'm pretty sure you can be those can be had for under 15 grand
1:35:31So Marco you're buying an MR2. Yeah pretty much. Yeah, I
1:35:35Looked at my other options
1:35:39You know I don't I don't follow
1:35:42You know old cars that closely so I kind of just browsed around AutoTrader
1:35:46Which made this very easy to just be like all right price cap of like 16,000
1:35:50I figure I can negotiate it down to 15 so price cap of 16,000 maximum year 93
1:35:55And you could just browse through different brands and what's available
1:35:58And I actually was unable to find any DeLorean's within this price range, but you wouldn't want one. Yeah, probably not
1:36:05But you know I was able to find a bunch of other stuff one other option
1:36:10I looked at was the I want to say what does BMW offer? I only found there was one
1:36:15M5 that fit this they fit the qualifications for sale
1:36:19unfortunately it was white and it also had like a hundred and fifteen thousand miles on it or something and
1:36:24If I actually got an old BMW a 25 year or yeah 25 year old BMW
1:36:30That would last like two seconds before something broke
1:36:33Yeah, you don't know what you're getting there because it's those aren't original parts anymore who knows what's in that thing right exactly?
1:36:38There were a good number of BMW 850s
1:36:42Which was a v12 coupe those are interesting?
1:36:47It's like and it's funny. They actually just announced like recently
1:36:52They're doing a new 8 series
1:36:53Which is basically the new version of their massive high-power coupe is basically like an even bigger version of the 6 series
1:36:59Yeah, the new 8 is just the 6, but they made the number 2 bigger just to make you spend more money on it exactly
1:37:05Yeah, it's like it's like a tweaked up 6, but anyway
1:37:08So yeah, maybe I'd look at something like this, but ultimately I'd be very afraid
1:37:12I mean
1:37:13I'm I'm too afraid to own a
1:37:15four-year-old BMW out of warranty to try to own one 25 year old and trend even like if a car that old brakes
1:37:23How do you fix it? Like who do you even go to you have to like you have to like have like
1:37:28Special dealers that you know that can even get the parts or make the parts or find the parts that work somehow like I don't
1:37:35Even know how you maintain a car this old when it breaks. I have no idea how that world works
1:37:39I imagine it's a big pain in the butt and probably very expensive
1:37:43But also I imagine certain things break and it's just like well, you can't fix that. Sorry. You're out of luck
1:37:49so I
1:37:51Ruled out BMW for the most part because I knew that more things would break on them than what I would be willing to fix
1:37:57so yeah, I looked at
1:38:00Basically, yeah the Toyota mr2
1:38:021991 my favorite generation of mr2 which again I've never actually driven or even been inside any of these
1:38:09This is the one I saw when I went with two cars and coffee with you. So I saw the outside
1:38:13it looked awesome just as I expect but
1:38:15But I would love to someday drive one of these and and maybe own one if that wouldn't be totally ridiculous
1:38:21But I don't have the garage space so oh well
1:38:24But this is I think it would be fun because it is, you know, I know realistically it's by any modern standard
1:38:30It's not gonna be fast
1:38:32It's sure as hell not gonna be safe
1:38:34Like you can make an argument that nobody should be driving 25 year old cars now because modern safety standards are so much higher
1:38:41That anything this old is just a death trap, even if it was good by this by the standards of its day
1:38:46So you really shouldn't be driving any of these but if for some reason I felt like driving one of these
1:38:51This would be kind of cool. I think it'd be fun. It it looks very like retro like 80s early 90s
1:38:59but it looks pretty cool in that way, I think and
1:39:01They seem to be not that hard to find and because they Toyota I feel like I have
1:39:07Some chance of it being remotely maintainable
1:39:10All right, John
1:39:12You can choose to either
1:39:14Simply answer the question or do what you really want to do
1:39:17Which is make merciless fun of our answers and then answer the question. We all know what's gonna happen here
1:39:22I want to point out that Gareth I think phrase this part of the question for me and then but then Marco needed it as
1:39:27Well, you get a magical extra garage bay because Gareth knew that my objection would be I'd have nowhere to put the car
1:39:32Mark would have said I don't have the garage space for it. You forgot about the magical extra garage bay
1:39:36No, I said I said in reality, I would never buy this because of that but in this hypothetical exercise
1:39:40I I accepted that premise and moved on the magical extra garage is real Marco
1:39:45And to people who ask in the chat room the parameters the question that I think we all answered is that you're buying it today
1:39:52So it's a used car
1:39:54$15,000 is your budget now so you could go on to like Auto Trader and pay someone $15,000 for a used car
1:39:59It's nothing to do with what the car was cost when it was new or anything like that. No time travel is involved here
1:40:04So if you ask this question to two oldish people or at least people who are much older than 25
1:40:10I think our first inclination and what all we all did is to try to buy a card that we liked back when we were
1:40:17Alive 25 years ago when it was new
1:40:20He's buying his old car mark was buying a car that he never he wanted but never got my first instinct was to go to
1:40:25Get my first car which the 1992 Honda Civic which I still think was a great car Oh John
1:40:30Why a stick shift 1992 Honda Civic?
1:40:32Here's here's part of the reason actually so I can kind of so one of the one of the things I looked at was old
1:40:39Acura integras which are basically like civics
1:40:41Because my friend had one of those in college and I drove it all the time and it was a lot of fun
1:40:46It was it was like some like crappy like late 80s integra that was totally beaten up and horrible
1:40:52But it was a pretty fun car to drive for a college kid
1:40:54Yeah
1:40:55If you get the the newer integra some of those are actually a pretty decent pretty quick cars like after the generation you're talking about
1:41:01Yeah, the square headlights into when they had the four tiny circle headlights. Yep. Yeah, we had one of those
1:41:06My parents had one of those then it became my brother's car
1:41:08I had a sunroof though, so my head hit the headliner I didn't like it
1:41:10but anyway the the thing about the the 92 Civic is you can get a
1:41:1692 Civic for like two grand right, but I've got a $15,000 budget. So what I would be looking for is like
1:41:22the 1992 Civic in
1:41:24amazing condition with low mileage
1:41:26like it hasn't the problem of these civics this generation is that is they've all been massively modified because these were like the
1:41:33Original like tuner import car like you can do so much to them
1:41:36So it's very very difficult to find a 92 or 93 Civic that has not been modified
1:41:41But if you have 15 grand, maybe you find a low mileage pristine thing, right?
1:41:45So but anyway, that was my first instinct, but I did look in the other direction as well
1:41:49So let me just not pick my nostalgia car
1:41:51Then what else can I find that has nothing to do with?
1:41:55Nostalgia like it kind of like I did in our original neutral thing where I came up with the Acura NSX because you could get
1:42:00One for 25 grand which probably isn't true now because they're going up in price but back then it was
1:42:04like be amazed at some car that you didn't think you could get 15k, but you can because it's 25 years old and
1:42:10I was leaning towards Mercedes there because I always love those, you know
1:42:15late 80s
1:42:17Mercedes and
1:42:18Back then they really made them like tanks and they over engineered everything
1:42:22Not to say that they have great reliability, but it's to say that the parts tended to last a long time
1:42:27There wasn't things chintzy on them. They were very big very heavy. The safety is not terrible because
1:42:33They were just so big and heavy
1:42:35So if you have a fighting chance of like unlike a 92 Civic which will crumple like a tin can
1:42:39An 80s s-class or something would probably protect you reasonably well for a 25 year old car
1:42:44I couldn't find any s-classes that were in
1:42:47The price range but I did find you can get yourself
1:42:52I really wanted to be 12, but I couldn't do it that can I could not get a v12 Mercedes for a 15k
1:42:57Like I just couldn't find one on our trader. You can't get the 850 from BMW. Yeah, I don't like that car
1:43:03But I could find the v8 once so I were my my car if I don't go with just buying my
1:43:1092 Civic is
1:43:12500 SL I always loved that generation like the
1:43:16You know 90s late 80s early 90s 500 SL. I should have had a link to it
1:43:21But I hope you hope you're envisioning the one that I'm that I'm thinking of. It's a convertible. It's a two-seat
1:43:26It's got a big v8 in it. It's built like a tank. It's old-school
1:43:2980s Mercedes it's incredibly heavy, you know
1:43:33Like it's just I always wanted to have one of those
1:43:36If I can't have a big s-class because it was just so ridiculous to me that it's like oh, it's convertible
1:43:41Is it small and light and nimble? No, no, it's a gigantic battleship
1:43:44That's why you need the v12
1:43:46It's a gigantic battleship with like 600 horsepower v12 in the front like a two-seat car to see convertible with a 600 horsepower v12
1:43:53It's ridiculous today and they made them back in the 80s and they were awesome
1:43:57I can't get that I'd get the v8 and I would be satisfied because it's kind of amazing to me that you can get
1:44:02You know a 500 SL for 15k, but you can if it's 25 years old you get a 500 SL for six grand
1:44:10That's actually not a bad price. What was the mileage in this?
1:44:13104,000 miles. I mean like the 80s it's kind of like buying that's that's early 90s one
1:44:18Yeah, both. Yeah, both both Honda and
1:44:21Mercedes like
1:44:23Made cars differently back then Honda was before the big Japanese decontending and Mercedes just everything was just massively over engineered and ridiculously heavy and
1:44:31Just beefy. So there's some chance that this car will still be holding together
1:44:36And I think people treat Mercedes pretty well, like unlike an integrity which people are gonna beat the hell
1:44:40Boring rich people drive the Mercedes. Hopefully it's in better condition
1:44:44All right, thanks to our three sponsors this week Squarespace Jamf now and Northwestern University and we will see you next week
1:44:54Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental
1:45:05Accidental
1:45:07John didn't do any research Margo and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental
1:45:14was accidental
1:45:17And you can find the show notes at ATP
1:45:21FM and if you're into Twitter
1:45:25You can follow them at
1:45:28CAS
1:45:30EYL
1:45:32ISS so that's Casey lists and a I'll see Oh a RM
1:45:36NT Marco Armin
1:45:39SIR
1:45:41AC
1:45:42USA, Syracuse
1:45:57Hey, so let me give you the good news and the bad news the good news is this press car that I have has answered
1:46:02A lot of the questions that I had about what I need to buy for a new car
1:46:06The bad news is the press car that I have has raised a million new questions about the press about the next car
1:46:13I need to buy so we're all gonna go on this journey together over the next few months
1:46:16Well before I finally make it make up my mind even we're gonna go on the journey like we haven't been on this journey. Yeah, right
1:46:23The journey is never-ending my friend. It's going to go on for journey has been like every other after show for the last six months
1:46:29Six months it feels like it's been years
1:46:32It's like the m5 purchase story all over again
1:46:37But with mud what with something far less exciting at the other end now that you don't need to go anywhere anymore
1:46:41I don't think you need a car at all. It's to solve this problem
1:46:44Let's cut the cut the Gordian knot here and say no car for you
1:46:47That's actually something I've been considering but we'll see you could get like a something done like a smart car
1:46:53Did you I saw I think someone mentioned in one of our slacks
1:46:57But I saw what I can only assume was a convertible smart car in London
1:47:02No, I mentioned that I saw I saw one in Paris. It was actually I thought it looked really good
1:47:07It was like apparently smart a while back made like basically like a little like a little coupe like a little it
1:47:15Looked almost like a little sports car like it
1:47:18I would know that's not what it looked like it looked like a smart car that had gone through a bridge that was too low
1:47:22Yeah
1:47:24It's like the cartoon where like the person who goes rolling past the camera like they're no longer under engine power
1:47:29But they're like they're there their head is all blackened from an explosion that goes
1:47:32And like rolls to a stop after the top of the car has been torn off it looked incredibly unsafe and ridiculous
1:47:39Looks like you were riding like like one of those little cars outside the shopping
1:47:42Outside the grocery store that your kids go in that rocks back and forth. That's what I look like
1:47:46Yeah, so it's called the smart Roadster
1:47:48I would say it looks almost like like the smart car version of the Miata like it's it's very much like in that vein
1:47:55I thought like I walked past one that was that way in Paris and I was like, ooh
1:47:59What's that like it not not in the sense that like I want that but that's really interesting looking like it's kind of cool
1:48:06It has like something to it. I thought that I thought it looked really cool in person
1:48:09Yeah, that's the picture you posted but that's not what I saw
1:48:12What I saw looked much more ridiculous
1:48:16So that that car is just ugly
1:48:17But the one I saw it looked much more ridiculous it literally looked like the grocery store
1:48:21Little put a quarter in and the car shakes back and forth, but with adult humans in
1:48:24My word
1:48:28Trying to figure it out. There is there is another 2018 smart convertible
1:48:32But this also isn't what I saw and I think the one I saw I mostly saw the front of it
1:48:36But I think the one I saw had the little hatchback version the the coupe convertible version that's on the Wikipedia page here
1:48:43Which does look I think significantly better than the one that has just like the chopped off truck back thing
1:48:48So here's the smart convertible but it's also not what I saw this
1:48:51This is the thing the thing that I saw is like a quarter of the size of this assuming that's a normal-sized person
1:48:57Yeah, this is what I'm talking about this the rest of their lineup is terrible. The smart Roadster was so good
1:49:03They had to stop selling it. It's an ugly car. It's an ugly car
1:49:06What's the relationship by the way to between smart and I don't think the smart Roadster is ugly. I really don't what's the relationship between?
1:49:14Between smart and Mercedes because I believe
1:49:18Mercedes was selling smart cars here in Richmond now, maybe that was a one-off on that particular dealer
1:49:24I think they own it. Is that what it is? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a sub brand of Mercedes
1:49:28I don't know if it always was I think they're a isn't there a class like
1:49:31Doesn't it share a platform with the smart and maybe I'm just remembering that I have no idea
1:49:36It's an acronym for something that I think might involve Mercedes in the M part
1:49:40Yeah, I don't know what the acronym is before the hard drive checking thing
1:49:43Wow smart car. I'm sure I remember what the harder one stands for
1:49:48Something monitoring of
1:49:52Derive some cooperation with swatch. There you go Marco and Mercedes swatch Mercedes art
1:49:59S-ma RT swatch Mercedes ART. That's why they're so ugly
1:50:03Holy smokes. I never knew that that's
1:50:06crazy self monitoring
1:50:09Analysis and reporting technology. I feel so much better John. Thank you. Knowing the meaning of that is almost as useful as the functionality itself
1:50:16You
1:50:18[door closes]
1:50:20[BLANK_AUDIO]