0:00:00How's that low level C audio code or whatever the hell it is you're working on I'm making progress
0:00:05Do you have any hair left to pull out of your head Marco? No, this is why I cut it short
0:00:11To make to make that impossible. I knew I was gonna be working on core audio this week
0:00:16So I got a fresh haircut number two on the razor nice and that that means it's too short to realistically grab hold of
0:00:23Like that. I'm good. Still got a handful
0:00:25Maybe he might not have a little fingers like pincers
0:00:29So any pre-follow-up stuff we need to worry about?
0:00:33There is no pre-follow-up. Only post-follow-up and follow-up and more follow-up.
0:00:39And lots and lots of follow-up.
0:00:41Maybe the show is pre-follow-up.
0:00:43At this point, should we just call this the Accidental Follow-Up Podcast?
0:00:46Well, there's follow-up and then the main topics are really just pre-follow-up for next week.
0:00:49It's so true. So let's do our follow-up so we can get to the pre-follow-up. We should probably
0:00:57start with talking about our discussion about how to attract or encourage women
0:01:04and girls to listen to the show. And unsurprisingly we got a lot of feedback
0:01:09about this and I appreciate and I know we appreciate all the feedback. A lot of
0:01:15it was really good, pretty much all of it was really interesting, and it's
0:01:21It certainly opened my eyes a bit on it with regard to how
0:01:25Men reacted to it how women reacted to it and and so
0:01:30Just a few things. I think we should talk about
0:01:32Upfront, I think first and foremost
0:01:35we I
0:01:38Would say we caught a little bit of flack about spending so much time talking about advertisers and Harry's
0:01:43Specifically and I think that's reasonable
0:01:46I think the the problem with the way the last episode went is that because we spent so much time talking about
0:01:52Talking about the advertisers it appeared as though that was the thing we thought was the biggest
0:02:00Priority just by virtue of the fact that we spent so much time on it and in reality
0:02:04That's not at all what any of us think is the biggest priority the first thing to change
0:02:09It's just as per usual
0:02:11we got wrapped around the axle on that topic and I don't know if any of you have ever heard this show but
0:02:17we sometimes get off in the weeds and that's exactly what happened and
0:02:20And I think while the discussion I think was good
0:02:25I don't mean for it and I'm pretty sure you guys don't mean for it to be representative of
0:02:30What we think is the right approach to fix this problem. It just so happens. We got off in the weeds
0:02:36I think actually I would back up for a second
0:02:38Here's how I maybe we all have different opinions of this feedback, but here's how I would characterize
0:02:43So first first of all, I want to say that I still feel like I'm I'm still processing that feedback
0:02:47I agree like and all I mean partly because it's still coming in and partly because I think it was like
0:02:53The most upsetting to me feedback that we've ever gotten in the show
0:02:57And there was a wide wide range of responses. The feedback was all over the map
0:03:03But the title of the top of that map was probably like you guys are dummies like I felt like this was
0:03:08Skewed way negative like consensus is we are dummies
0:03:12It's not to say that it's not useful. But like sometimes we get feedback
0:03:17That's like just providing information or supportive or whatever, but pretty much all this feedback was telling us
0:03:23Things that we missed or whatever. I mean some of it was I guess feedback because we solicited feedback, but it was fairly negative. I
0:03:32Don't know if that surprised me. I think I was kind of dreading
0:03:35discussing this topic because I kind of figured this would be the the feedback we would get but it's
0:03:40The fact that I'm still processing it makes me feel like I don't I don't quite know
0:03:45What to think and you I think what you highlighted is
0:03:49Probably the only dominant theme that I saw in it because like I said, even though it was mostly negative
0:03:55It was wide-ranging like people had very different ideas about what we got wrong, right? So a
0:04:01Wide range all in the negative round, but the one thing a lot of people seem to agree on you already hit is that?
0:04:05regardless of how they felt about the ads
0:04:08That that was not the core issue
0:04:11People who said you absolutely have to get rid of the ads
0:04:13Also ads are not at the core issue people who said you absolutely have to keep the ads also the ad is not the core
0:04:18Issue right so that I feel like is the only consensus that I could draw out of this so far two things
0:04:23One that we didn't do a very good job and two that the ad is a distraction regardless of what people feel about it
0:04:30What did you think of it?
0:04:33Am I being too negative on the negativity, Marco,
0:04:35or did you get that impression as well?
0:04:37- No, that was pretty much it.
0:04:39I mean, this was, I mean, I'm also still
0:04:43processing a lot of it.
0:04:44I would say just anecdotally,
0:04:46I don't know if you guys feel the same way,
0:04:48I would say anecdotally, this was probably the most words
0:04:51we've gotten in feedback on any topic.
0:04:53It has taken me a long time to even just read
0:04:57the feedback email, there's been so much of it.
0:05:00And most of it has been very informative.
0:05:02I mean, overall, there was definitely a prominent pattern
0:05:07to a lot of it that began with, I'm a man, but,
0:05:13and then a giant wall of text that showed really
0:05:17a pretty poor understanding of gender issues
0:05:20and technology, or ever in life.
0:05:24And that, I'm a little saddened by.
0:05:27- Didn't you feel like, though, that was like
0:05:28easiest feedback to handle.
0:05:30Yeah, I ignored most of that.
0:05:31Because, I mean, it's depressing that we're going to get that type of thing, but it's
0:05:36the type of feedback you read and you're like, "All right, well, so I know these people are
0:05:41out there, I know they're listening, they have different opinions and values than we
0:05:45do."
0:05:46But it's easier to, I don't know, I feel like it's easier to process, because I feel like
0:05:51They, in many respects, they are who we are most capable of reaching, right?
0:06:01Like if we can reach those people, then that will affect change, right?
0:06:05If we can turn those people around or just even move them more towards what we think,
0:06:11you know, our value system, that that will be a success.
0:06:14And they were sort of showing us, here we are over here, if you feel like moving us
0:06:19towards your way of thinking, "This is where we are, so now you know what you got your
0:06:24work cut out for you."
0:06:25Yeah, it was surprising to me. I think most of the email, while negative, was informative.
0:06:33There was certainly a lot of, "Hi, I'm a dude," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
0:06:38"Okay, so you should really improve it." But the thing that struck me was, gosh, the
0:06:42immediate Twitter replies to the ATP account were
0:06:45Disappointing and
0:06:48I'm sir. I was certainly and remain taken aback by it because I
0:06:54Was very surprised
0:06:57About how many replies we saw which basically
0:07:02made me think that
0:07:05We were all members of the he-man woman haters Club
0:07:08which I don't remember signing up for and I don't remember that being a thing and
0:07:12That was that was a little bit disappointing not all of them, of course, but a lot of them
0:07:16Well, I mean, I think that's that is the most much more interesting feedback to me also more upsetting but much more interesting
0:07:22and because it's
0:07:24It's I don't know it's giving us new information as opposed to just saying
0:07:28Hey, there are people out there with regressive ideas about women and technology like really already knew that but
0:07:34The other side of the coin is more enlightening and I would say for the feedback again trying to characterize it
0:07:39we got more feedback from women than usual which is expected in this type of topic and
0:07:44the reason I was emphasizing the wide range is
0:07:47You know as I tried to emphasize in the last show like women are not a monolith
0:07:53No individual woman who tweets at us or writes to us is is purporting to speak for all women
0:07:58They are just individuals, right?
0:08:00And that's why getting a lot of feedback is good.
0:08:03Because otherwise, if you just get feedback from three people
0:08:07and they all have three different opinions,
0:08:08you have no idea what to think.
0:08:09If you get feedback from 300 people,
0:08:12then maybe you can start sort of slicing and dicing it
0:08:15and trying to figure things out.
0:08:17And so soliciting feedback is one thing.
0:08:19And the second thing, which many people emphasize,
0:08:22is you solicit the feedback and then
0:08:23you have to actually read it and listen to it, right?
0:08:26The difficulty in doing that correctly,
0:08:29as on the last show I talked about,
0:08:31one difficulty is try not to be defensive,
0:08:34try not to feel like you have to answer everything,
0:08:35try not to feel like every piece of advice
0:08:37is an accusation, so on and so forth.
0:08:39You know, try not to suffer from male answer syndrome,
0:08:41all these bad instincts that are in me definitely,
0:08:45and maybe in you too as well, you have to fight those.
0:08:49But the second thing is, with this huge range,
0:08:52even talking about something as silly as the ad,
0:08:54which everyone more or less agreed
0:08:55was not the core issue here. Just looking at the women who gave feedback on the ad,
0:09:01you can't possibly do what "everyone" wants because they want contradictory things.
0:09:08Some women said, "You absolutely have to keep the ad removing. It would be insulting."
0:09:11Some women said, "You absolutely have to remove the ad. Its presence is insulting."
0:09:15So if we get their feedback and we listen to it, at some point we have to do something.
0:09:22And there is no course of action.
0:09:24It seemed to me that a lot of the people writing in all camps, no matter what their opinion,
0:09:28believe that they didn't seem to leave a lot of room for other possibilities.
0:09:34Many people wrote in to say, "This is the situation.
0:09:37You guys are dummies who are not seeing it.
0:09:39And the answer is obvious.
0:09:40Just do what I say."
0:09:41Right?
0:09:42But it's like, you know, just that one email, it's fine.
0:09:46But it's like, you read one email after the next, after the next, after the next, and
0:09:49like if I do what you want then these 10 people are gonna be upset if I do what
0:09:52they want then these 50 people are gonna you know that's that's that's our job
0:09:56our job is to solicit feedback accept it read it listen to it try to understand
0:10:01it and then decide the what the right thing to do for us is right and that's
0:10:08why I feel like I'm still processing because it's difficult right like you
0:10:11know to sort of be in the people pleaser mode where you're like we're trying to
0:10:14do the right thing here right we're trying to solicit feedback if only there
0:10:17was a quote unquote answer, but there's not. There's lots of people's opinions and lots
0:10:22of people's answers and we have to figure out how do we make forward progress on our
0:10:29goals based on this feedback and it's just, it's kind of making my head spin at this point.
0:10:34Well, but I think one thing I think that we can all agree on besides cheese, ding, is
0:10:41that we got a lot of feedback because we asked for it and that's exactly what we want.
0:10:47We were asking the question to our audience,
0:10:50especially to the women in our audience,
0:10:53what can we do to help address this massive gender imbalance
0:10:57in our audience and in tech podcasting
0:11:00and in tech as a whole.
0:11:01This is a big problem.
0:11:03I don't pretend to be an expert on this.
0:11:08I'm far from it.
0:11:09I do, however, want to improve it.
0:11:13As a guy who is a smart ass and has always been a smart ass,
0:11:17I've always had the problem of I rush right to
0:11:23thinking I have an answer to something.
0:11:25And as we saw in the email and as many women see
0:11:28every single day, that's a very common thing
0:11:31in this business.
0:11:33And that's a very common thing among men in general.
0:11:35The attitude that we just have an immediate answer
0:11:38for everything and we know everything about everything
0:11:41and we can quickly explain away anything or any problem.
0:11:45One of the things that I think everyone would agree on,
0:11:50which there isn't much in this argument
0:11:52that everyone would agree on,
0:11:54but I think everyone who's on the right side of this
0:11:56can probably agree that especially we men
0:11:59need to be listening more.
0:12:01We need to be asking and listening more.
0:12:04We just need to be listening
0:12:05to what women are actually telling us.
0:12:09It was very valuable to see all that feedback, even though a lot of it was contradictory
0:12:12from women about what we should or shouldn't do.
0:12:16The fact is we asked, we are listening, and we are going to continue to ask and listen.
0:12:20And to all the men out there who responded in that matter-of-fact way, this is going
0:12:26to be hard for you to change in your life.
0:12:29It's certainly hard for us, but you have to be open to the idea that the first step when
0:12:35this question is asked is to listen to what women are telling you, listen to what they
0:12:40have to say, to ask them and to be listening and to care, not just to jump to thinking
0:12:44you know the answer. Because really, that is such a big problem for so many people.
0:12:52And it is really, this is really primarily a problem with men that do this. The fact
0:13:00is the world is not a perfectly balanced place where everything is equal. It's far from it
0:13:04and that's the whole problem we're trying to address,
0:13:07it is okay to recognize that even if you think
0:13:11you're being good, and even if you think
0:13:15that you are helping, there are gonna be things,
0:13:19and Jon, you talk about this a lot,
0:13:20there's gonna be things that you subconsciously do,
0:13:23or that you just do 'cause you've always done them,
0:13:25or that's just the way you think,
0:13:26that you think are normal and neutral, but they're not.
0:13:29And so it is of utmost importance that men in particular
0:13:34Don't just jump to thinking you know the answers here.
0:13:37Really sit back and listen,
0:13:39'cause there's a lot that we need to hear.
0:13:42- That's what I talked about on the Gamergate episode,
0:13:43one of the suggestions I made to the audience
0:13:45of people who may have been sort of sympathizing
0:13:47with Gamergate, and I was trying to look for something
0:13:51that I could suggest that would be actionable
0:13:54and that I felt like would make real change
0:13:59based on what has worked for me.
0:14:00I was suggesting, I forget which Twitter accounts
0:14:03I suggested but a bunch of people's Twitter accounts like the everyday sexism Twitter accounts
0:14:08I probably I'm sure I suggested Brianna was the Twitter account like just follow these Twitter accounts
0:14:12It was my suggestion, but then don't ever reply to them. Just read just read the tweets
0:14:17And I said it's like the tweets are gonna make you angry. Sometimes you're gonna disagree with a lot of them
0:14:24the whole idea is like a one-year plan of like
0:14:27Subscribe and read the tweets like, you know make don't make it crazy volume
0:14:31Just have it in the mix of your Twitter and I'm doing this in terms of Twitter, but you could do anything blog posts
0:14:35You know who you?
0:14:36Whose Facebook posts you read what sites read or whatever?
0:14:39Just read them even if for the entire year you absolutely 100% disagree with every single thing that you read
0:14:45Because I feel like the osmosis of that like sort of just being in contact with those ideas
0:14:50Will slowly affect your worldview because it's essentially forced listening. Like you're not really listening
0:14:56You may be reading them like hate reading them like go look at these dummies. I disagree with everything. They so dumb
0:14:59They don't know anything about anything right if you just keep reading them like and the everyday sexism one is a great example
0:15:05It's like you just read day after day after day of like minor things that happen to people or situations
0:15:11They're in I feel like it will eventually get through to you like this is not made up stuff and like
0:15:16Because I think the volume is important right and so we are subjecting ourselves to this essentially voluntarily to try to you know
0:15:23You know bring us bring us the feedback tell us what you think
0:15:28Give us your ideas
0:15:30And we just kind of have to soak in it like, you know, it's like by you know
0:15:35We're soaking it into some degree but like by actually inviting it
0:15:38We're kind of getting a big dose of it dumped on our head and that's part of the process
0:15:43Of course, this is a podcast and this is follow-up. And of course we do have responses to things
0:15:49so we're kind of violating our own rules here, but I'm the
0:15:52the reason I suggested all that Twitter stuff is like that's how I feel like I got into this like just
0:15:58And, you know, gamergate was a big part of it, but even before that, reading like every
0:16:02single post about these things, reading people, following new people, looking at their tumblers,
0:16:07following them on Twitter, just reading everything, mostly not responding to it, mostly not engaging
0:16:12with people on Twitter, but just like reading it.
0:16:14And gamergate was like, the peak was just like every day, like 17 new things to read.
0:16:19And then following the links, following the threads, following the different people to
0:16:23where they come from, what's their background, what have they written before, what have they
0:16:27done, you know, like that kind of sort of, it's not sort of like ambient research or
0:16:33whatever on the topic is I felt has been most influential in my life and changing myself
0:16:39on these topics. And like I said, this feedback is part of that. And now that I've said all
0:16:45those things to try to be deferential and everything, now I have to go and ruin it by
0:16:48responding to what I think was the harshest criticism we got, because I think it's the
0:16:53one thing, again, this isn't like, this wasn't the most common, but if I look, if I go over
0:16:56to the most negative end of the spectrum of the feedback we got. It's not, believe it
0:17:02or not, from the people who have regressive ideas about women in tech. Their feedback
0:17:06tended not to be harsh, tended to be, I don't know, condescending and patronizing. But the
0:17:11most harsh ones and the ones that felt the worst were feedback from women who, the gist
0:17:17of this feedback was on the topic of changing the host lineup and changing the format of
0:17:25the show saying essentially if you don't do one of those two things then it shows
0:17:30you don't care about women at all and this is all BS front and that's the
0:17:35harshest version of that there's just like you know saying these two things
0:17:40are the test for you if you don't if you refuse to do things as we said I talked
0:17:45about last show we didn't want to change the host line of the show we didn't want
0:17:48to turn into an interview show we basically ruled those out and I feel
0:17:51like people hearing that people hearing us say you know we read through this
0:17:55big list of suggestions that people suggested to us. And then we ruled out those two right
0:17:59off the bat. And it just feels like every other encounter women have had in technology
0:18:04where it's like the people in the position of power hear their concerns and then immediately
0:18:10dismiss them. So it's like slamming the door in their face. And I understand why people
0:18:13are angry about that. I understand why we got that feedback, why the people are feeling
0:18:17the way they did, why they felt compelled to go to the feedback forum and write those
0:18:21things in. But I, you know, the... I responded to some of these people, and what I said in
0:18:30all the responses was similar, was that, as I said in the show, that would... that would
0:18:35absolutely make the show more appealing. You know, given, granted, like, this is feedback
0:18:43we received, I agree with them. Where I disagree is, by us not doing those two specific things
0:18:50and only those two specific things change the host lineup, turn the show, change the
0:18:53show format to be an interview show, that somehow there's nothing else we can do to
0:18:58make the show more appealing to women, to get more women listeners.
0:19:02I totally disagree with that.
0:19:03I think there are a ton of things we could do to find more, you know, to make the show
0:19:09more inclusive, to find, attract more women to the show.
0:19:15It's just a tremendous amount.
0:19:16We read a whole bunch of them on the last show.
0:19:17tons of people sent us feedback with ideas, right?
0:19:20The only two things we ruled out
0:19:23were changing the host lineup
0:19:24and changing the format of the show to be an interview show.
0:19:27Everything else, including the Harry's ad,
0:19:28I might point out, was on the table, right?
0:19:31And so that feedback, like,
0:19:33like it hurt the worst because it shows that those people,
0:19:36what they came away with was that we were,
0:19:38that we were dismissing them,
0:19:40that we were just doing exactly what has been done to them
0:19:43in the entire technology industry for their entire life,
0:19:45is just like, "This popular show that I listen to is going to address my concerns for a moment."
0:19:50And door slammed in face, right? That's the experience they got out of the show, which
0:19:53is terrible. Not our intention. Obviously we did a bad job, but I still have to say
0:19:58that I feel like our show can exist in its current form and be better than it is. That
0:20:05we can make positive progress towards our goal of inclusiveness. And maybe that's not
0:20:11enough progress maybe we can make more progress by changing the show in those ways but I feel
0:20:16like it's like that this show has value and can be better in its current form I don't know if that's
0:20:21like so a lot of the worst feedback again made it sound made it feel like maybe feel like that
0:20:26our show just should not exist like that it is an affront to the cause and that the world does not
0:20:32need another three dudes text podcast and the best thing we could do is just change it in a
0:20:37fundamental way so it's a different show and if we don't do that it shows we really don't care and
0:20:41and you would just we don't want to do anything that will that will
0:20:43perturb our happy little home in any way and I feel like that is a
0:20:46Mischaracterization and that we were totally willing to do anything within the bounds of the current show
0:20:51Again, we provided you know granting entirely that it would be make the show more attractive to women if we did those things
0:20:58But I we want to have our show with the three of us. This is our show. I feel like I
0:21:02You know, it's a valid thing to do to have the show with the three of us. I
0:21:09Don't know I don't know how else to do characterize that without without just sort of reinforcing everything
0:21:14They think that's basically like oh you just want to have your show and that's that I
0:21:17I do want to have the show with the three of us and I
0:21:20feel like that show can be better and I feel like some positive progress and making that show better is
0:21:25It's positive right is it as positive as it could be if we you know and and you know
0:21:32I don't want to go into the it's a I'm that's why I should have
0:21:37getting more defensive by the moment. But if you go into the, you know, I'll stop myself here. But
0:21:43what do you guys have to think about this topic? Yeah, I have all the feedback we got.
0:21:47A lot of it hurt in the sense that it made me very angry because I was disappointed in in the very
0:21:56chauvinistic things that I saw. But the stuff that actually hurt the in cut the deepest was when a
0:22:05a woman would write in and say, like you had said, John, basically, if you don't fundamentally
0:22:10change the show, then you're just a bunch of liars. And, well, John, like you said,
0:22:18John, that absolutely would be the number one best way to put our money where our mouth
0:22:23is. That is, I don't think it's unreasonable for us to take that off the table. And I,
0:22:28and even though the show is in so many ways about binary, the show itself is not binary.
0:22:32And there is a lot of in the middle that we can do to improve ourselves and to improve
0:22:38the way we handle the show and just generally make things more inclusive without changing
0:22:45the three of us.
0:22:46And I should point out that we got a fair bit of women that wrote in that said, "I understand
0:22:52why someone would ask you to change the lineup, but don't do that because the reason I listen,"
0:22:59as several women that wrote in, the reason I listen is because of the three of you and
0:23:04because of the chemistry you have and because of the way you beat each other up over white
0:23:07cars and fish and so on and so forth. And if you change that lineup, it could ruin everything.
0:23:16And so if this is the most hurt I've gotten, I'm still coming from a place of indescribable
0:23:22privilege and I recognize that. But it was, it was really, it really bummed me out because
0:23:27Because I feel like I want to work together, the three of us and the women that listen
0:23:34and the men that listen, and I just want to work together to make this a more inclusive,
0:23:39happy place.
0:23:41And I feel like, just like you said, Jon, there is somewhere in the middle between doing
0:23:47nothing and completely eviscerating the lineup as it exists today.
0:23:51I would go even farther, because from my perspective, as I said, women are always trying to get
0:23:57underrepresented in tech podcasts. And like we should, I think we linked to Rocket last week,
0:24:01we should put more links in the show notes of other podcasts, tech podcasts that are very similar
0:24:05to ATP, but have women on them. There's the Vector podcast with Georgia Dow and iMore, there's the
0:24:10iMore podcast with Serenity and Ali and then Rocket. Like the fact that I can't name more than
0:24:17a handful of these off the top of my head shows you there is not a lot of them, but they are out
0:24:20there. And so women looking to hear other women's voices on the topics of tech, you
0:24:26know, there are options and I think there should be more of them. You know, should
0:24:31our show be one of them? Like our show is our show is the three of us, right? But
0:24:35like from from my perspective, I think it's very possible that we can do maybe
0:24:41not more good, but a tremendous amount of good by talking to our, you know, making
0:24:47our show more inclusive so it doesn't feel like that if you're a woman
0:24:50listening that you somehow shouldn't be and this isn't the place for you, right?
0:24:52So a lot of the things are like, what can we do to change? Tons of things like, what can we
0:24:56stop doing that is bad? What can we do that is that is repelling women, right?
0:25:00Can we, you know, we only talk about a certain number of things each week.
0:25:04Out of the huge range of things we could talk about, by picking different things to talk about,
0:25:10can we change the show? And most importantly, I feel like, even if we are completely unsuccessful
0:25:15in our efforts to get more women and girls to listen to the show,
0:25:19by talking to the men who listen to the show, that is probably, realistically speaking,
0:25:24our best avenue for positive change. Because if we could snap our fingers and convince all the men
0:25:29on the show to get on board with our way of thinking about this, as regressive as ours even
0:25:35may be, but just like to move them along the continuum, that would be a tremendous benefit.
0:25:39And that's one of the pieces of feedback I have heard from a lot of people, especially people
0:25:41deeply entrenched in this issue, is that if you can change... It's the men's behavior that needs
0:25:48to change, right? So we were all about like, can we make the show more inclusive? Can we make sure
0:25:51we're not doing anything to repel women? We had to get rid of the men to say, in a nice way,
0:25:57we can't say like, "Oh, you guys are all bad people. You shouldn't listen." Like, that is not
0:26:00it. That is not it at all. We want to be able to, like, bring people along with the ideas that we
0:26:07have. And even if we're only just talking to men, that is a huge way that we can make a positive
0:26:14of change in this area.
0:26:16So I feel like the three of us, if we change the show
0:26:21while keeping the format and while keeping the three of us
0:26:23there, I still feel like we can do a massive amount of good
0:26:25if we can just figure out how to do it
0:26:27and get our acts together.
0:26:29- We also got a lot of feedback that was suggesting
0:26:33what would make the show more appealing to women,
0:26:38but that's how the people presented it,
0:26:41but in reality, it's not about,
0:26:44it would make the show more attractive to anybody
0:26:46of any gender, it had nothing to do with women.
0:26:48So things like just making it easier for new listeners
0:26:53to get into the show.
0:26:53So not spending the entire show on follow-up,
0:26:56not being too much inside jokes, stuff like that.
0:26:59- Nobody said don't send the whole show on follow-up.
0:27:01Don't try to throw a follow-up under the bus
0:27:03and mix it into the other topic, nice try.
0:27:05- A few did, but anyway, it was--
0:27:06- Who did that, jump in that email.
0:27:09- You think I keep email, that's great.
0:27:12- I do read it, I don't keep it.
0:27:14No, there are things about our show format
0:27:17that we can definitely improve on,
0:27:19things that will make it easier for any new listeners
0:27:22to come in and to stick with us.
0:27:25And that's, a lot of people frame those things as,
0:27:28here's why women don't like your show,
0:27:30which is a complete BS,
0:27:32or it's at least not the whole story.
0:27:34It's like, here's why a new listener might not stick around.
0:27:37That's the real story.
0:27:38And so there are things there that we need to
0:27:40and should improve to get more women listening,
0:27:44mostly because that's how we get more people listening.
0:27:47Like it has nothing to do with women.
0:27:49- Well, I mean, like I said on the past show,
0:27:51you can, like some of them were, you know,
0:27:53like, not that they said this, but as I said last time,
0:27:56if we talked about politics, we would have much broader appeal
0:27:59than if we talk about programming.
0:28:00And a lot of people, we've always got complaints
0:28:02when we go into the super programming stuff,
0:28:04but bottom line is that's one of the things
0:28:05that we wanna talk about.
0:28:06We are three programmers on a podcast.
0:28:09We're gonna talk about programming.
0:28:10Some people love the programming, some people hate it.
0:28:14That's more of just a narrow versus broad issue.
0:28:16It is not specifically a gendered issue, I feel like.
0:28:19But yeah, a lot of people say, "I'm not super into programming, so whenever you talk about
0:28:25programming, I tune out."
0:28:26And we've been getting that feedback for the life of the program.
0:28:28There is a ceiling on our appeal.
0:28:31If we did a show about politics, it would have way broader appeal, but that's not the
0:28:36show we're doing.
0:28:38So in many ways, it's the same type of thing.
0:28:42Oh, so you want to broaden your eyes?
0:28:44You want to get more women to listen?
0:28:45Well, change what you talk about.
0:28:46It's like, yes, OK, change what we talk about in what way?
0:28:48Well, I would love it if you didn't
0:28:49talk about programming anymore.
0:28:50Well, yeah, there are lots of women programmers
0:28:54who listen who like when we talk about programming.
0:28:56We're doing a show about programming.
0:28:57I would love it if you didn't talk about Apple.
0:29:00Maybe more people would listen if we didn't talk about Apple,
0:29:02if we talked about something with much broader appeal.
0:29:05So that's something we have to deal with.
0:29:06We're always trying to say, well, you know,
0:29:08within the confines of what?
0:29:09Oh, you wanted brought another show,
0:29:10but you don't want to change your show.
0:29:12We do want to change it within the confines
0:29:14of the topic area, right?
0:29:17And the three of us and everything.
0:29:18And that's like, to many people,
0:29:20that is basically sort of like,
0:29:22you don't really want to change.
0:29:24You say you want to change.
0:29:25You say you want to make the show more inclusive.
0:29:27You say you want to make it more appealing,
0:29:28but you don't want to actually change anything
0:29:29about the show.
0:29:30And I reiterate again,
0:29:31I think there are just so many things we could change
0:29:33within this format to do better.
0:29:35Just a tremendous amount of things we can change
0:29:37that we will hopefully be working on moving forward
0:29:40that can make this show more inclusive
0:29:43and change people's hearts and minds
0:29:47who do listen to the show, men or women on whatever,
0:29:50I don't know.
0:29:51I just feel somewhat defeated by this entire topic.
0:29:56- Yeah, and I think we should probably put a fork in it
0:29:59for today and a couple of quick thoughts.
0:30:01First of all, if you are listening to this and don't care for it, I am sorry to hear
0:30:09that.
0:30:10Please do not bother writing in to tell us that you don't care for it because this
0:30:13is going to continue to happen and you can either carry on with the show or not.
0:30:20But this is something that's very important to the three of us and we're going to keep
0:30:24talking about it and that's just the way it is.
0:30:26And it's absolutely on topic.
0:30:28This is a major problem in the tech industry.
0:30:31It is definitely relevant for tech podcasts to talk about this issue.
0:30:35Yeah.
0:30:36And the other thing, I'm seeing a lot of angst in the chat room right now that we're
0:30:41doing a lot of navel gazing and talking about the show and talking about, "Oh, what could
0:30:46we do?
0:30:47What could we do?"
0:30:48But not doing anything.
0:30:49Two quick thoughts on that.
0:30:50First of all, I think just talking about this is doing something.
0:30:52I mean, would you rather us not talk about this?
0:30:55I don't think that's really a solution.
0:30:57And secondly, outside of the show, in Private Conversations between the three of us, we
0:31:02are absolutely discussing pretty much anything that we've gotten in email.
0:31:08We are discussing and considering pretty much everything.
0:31:14Even things we probably don't want to do or may not do are on the table in Private Conversations
0:31:20between the three of us.
0:31:21I ask only that you bear with us and give us a chance to get our heads around everything,
0:31:25us a chance to put things together and watch the space. I know it's probably not happening
0:31:31as quick as it should, it's probably not happening as quick as it could, but we are working on
0:31:36it and we are trying as hard as we can. And expect us to screw up, like expect us to do
0:31:43badly again, you know what I mean? Like it's not, don't expect miracles, right? And we
0:31:48will never go as far as some people want us to go. People will always be disappointed
0:31:52in us. Like, people will be disappointed that this show exists at all, which is clear from
0:31:55the feedback sometimes, right? But, you know, some people like it. It's like, I just feel like,
0:32:04you know, that one of the traps that men fall into when they get into this topic is like,
0:32:08I'm gonna, I'm gonna do good here. I am going to champion the rights of whatever, you know,
0:32:14oppressed people that I'm getting behind this cause, blah, blah, blah. And then they get told
0:32:20that what they're doing is wrong and they're like "but I was trying to help, well forget you guys,
0:32:26now I'm not even going to help anymore" and it's like that's exactly, you just have to,
0:32:29that's exactly the wrong attitude and we're trying mightily to avoid that. Like it's,
0:32:33you have to understand that everyone is not going to agree with you, everyone is not going to like
0:32:40you, and the closer you get to trying to make some kind of progress, the more angry people will be
0:32:44that you didn't go far enough. And that is a positive force I feel like, pushing us in the
0:32:49right direction not the wrong direction. I'm trying to get that as as a wind behind us.
0:32:53As we become ever more disappointing to the people who are really invested in this cause,
0:32:58I'm hoping we're actually moving more towards like we're making positive progress in that direction,
0:33:03right? That we're not going the other way, that we don't get repelled by that, that we don't
0:33:06that we don't start to resent the idea that boohoo people said mean things to us who are quote
0:33:11unquote on our side. I want that to be a wind at our back rather than something deterring us from
0:33:17pursuing this. So, Plex. Yeah, I spoke last week about how the Synology, or certain Synology,
0:33:26specifically I think I cited the DS214 play as having the proper hardware to transcode
0:33:34video and do so quickly, which makes it really great for Plex. A handful of people very gently
0:33:39pointed out to me that I am full of crap, and that the 214 does indeed have the right
0:33:44hardware. However, Plex does not have access to it because of whatever is going on within
0:33:51the Synology. I don't know the technical details, but suffice to say I'm full of crap.
0:33:56So what I have found, or I think a listener actually pointed out to me, is a list of all
0:34:02the different network attached storage devices that Plex will run on. And it will, and it
0:34:08It shows exactly what these devices can and cannot transcode in a reasonably performant
0:34:15way.
0:34:16So we will put that in the show notes.
0:34:18I apologize if you took any action on my BS recommendation.
0:34:22I did not realize that I was dead wrong, but hopefully I've caught you before you spend
0:34:26any money.
0:34:27I do love my Synology.
0:34:29I do not have a 214 anymore.
0:34:32I have one that is not at all well suited for transcoding.
0:34:35And so I do recommend Synologies in general, but I cannot recommend the 214 that I previously
0:34:41recommended because as it turns out, they are a terrible idea for Plex.
0:34:46So check out that list and buy one that actually works to do the things I thought the 214 would.
0:34:52Yeah, I had high hopes for that hardware transcoding, but I don't use Plex.
0:34:56So what I found was that when the hardware transcoding was useful, it was good.
0:35:00But if you are downloading more exotic, weird formats, or you have no idea what the hell
0:35:06formats you are downloading, legally, of course, very often the hardware transcoding can't
0:35:10handle it.
0:35:11And there's one thing about software transcoding, it may be slower, but it can do a much broader
0:35:18range of things.
0:35:19So I find myself wishing that rather than hardware decoding, I really had a faster CPU
0:35:24to do software decoding, software transcoding.
0:35:26All right.
0:35:28What is going on with iPhoto and Time Machine?
0:35:31- I think this was right after last week's show
0:35:33that we got this feedback direct link
0:35:35to an Apple support article saying,
0:35:36"Whatever happened to that thing?
0:35:37"Did I imagine that Time Machine integration?"
0:35:39Apparently I did not imagine it,
0:35:41although this thing doesn't have screenshots.
0:35:42It says, "As of iPhoto 11,"
0:35:45which was version 9.2, obviously,
0:35:47and OS 10 Lion 10.7.2 or later,
0:35:53that's when iPhoto lost the ability to browse backups,
0:35:56as they call it.
0:35:57according to the Apple article,
0:35:59this means that instead of restoring specific photos
0:36:01within your iPhoto library,
0:36:02you must restore your entire iPhoto library.
0:36:04So I forget when iPhoto 11 was, I'm assuming 2011,
0:36:07but that's when this feature went away
0:36:08and there was no more integration.
0:36:10And I assume this is a feature that was never public
0:36:12for like third-party apps,
0:36:14that it was something only iPhoto could do
0:36:15'cause it was written by Apple.
0:36:17And it has fallen by the wayside, sadly.
0:36:20Or maybe it's a good thing, I don't know.
0:36:22- Our first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity.
0:36:26And as usual, they have sent Jon a toaster to review in lieu of a sponsor read here.
0:36:31So Jon, what is the toaster that Cards Against Humanity sent you to review this week?
0:36:35So this week we've got the Cuisinart Custom Classic Toaster Oven Broiler, which I guess
0:36:40has a sensible name.
0:36:42It is model number T capital O capital B hyphen four zero, another model number with both
0:36:48an O and a zero in it, which boggles my mind.
0:36:51I don't know how they keep anything straight.
0:36:54This is about the same size as my Breville 650L or whatever my model number is that I
0:36:59always forget.
0:37:00It is a legit four-slice toaster oven.
0:37:05It's got four unshielded resistive heating elements inside it.
0:37:09It has a very straightforward UI.
0:37:11This is the first toaster that I did not ever need to look at the instructions for, which
0:37:14is saying something.
0:37:15It shouldn't be, but it is.
0:37:17That's really sad.
0:37:18Yeah.
0:37:19Three knobs on the – I usually look at the instructions and figure out if there's some
0:37:22nuance I'm missing.
0:37:23Like I could usually operate any toaster, but then like, okay, but then what about,
0:37:27you know, there's some nuance here that I'm probably missing.
0:37:30I need to look at the manual.
0:37:31This one has just had three knobs, one for function, like toast, broil, bake, reheat,
0:37:36whatever.
0:37:37One for temperature that goes from, you know, the normal range of toaster oven temperatures
0:37:40in degrees Fahrenheit and one for toast shade and the toast shade one you set to like, you
0:37:46know, it's a big range.
0:37:47You set it to what you want and then there is a start stop button.
0:37:50So if you find the correct setting for your toast every morning, you don't have to adjust
0:37:53it, you just press the button, it does it repeatedly.
0:37:54So that's all good.
0:37:57There is no timer at all, which I didn't notice until a little bit later.
0:38:00I'm like, you know what, there's no way for me to set this thing for 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
0:38:04No timer at all, which is a very interesting simplification, almost an Apple-like move.
0:38:07They're like, because it's very difficult to incorporate all those things together and
0:38:11have all the desirable features of not having to figure out where the setting is without
0:38:15either going to something digital like the Breville where you have, you know, a computer
0:38:18display, right? Or LCD display. Or making your thing complicated. So there's just no
0:38:23timer at all, this. Or if there is, I didn't find one because I didn't read the manual.
0:38:27But I'm pretty sure there's no timer. Just a start/stop button.
0:38:29Now, does that make it harder to use the oven feature? Because obviously with a toaster,
0:38:34you don't really need a timer, you need the darkness knob, which it does have. But does
0:38:38the lack of a timer make the oven feature less useful to you?
0:38:41It depends. Like, you should know that it doesn't have a timer if that's something you
0:38:44rely on. I find that with any feature except for toasting on my existing toaster oven,
0:38:48I don't tend to use the timer. I just kind of like put it in. If anything, it kind of annoys me if the
0:38:52timer is too low, like if I'm reheating something and the timer was like six minutes, I'm like,
0:38:55"Oh, actually I want to just..." I usually just turn the knob and I say, "Just 30, 60 minutes.
0:38:59Like I'm never... I'm going to take it out when I feel like it's done. I'm not going to forget
0:39:02about it." Right? But if you want a timer, this is not the toaster for you. The knobs themselves,
0:39:06really good knob feel. Actually, it's probably average knob feel, but compared to the knob feel
0:39:12on these other toasters it is phenomenal right and by the way if you don't know
0:39:16what the knob feel YouTube channel we'll put a link in the show you should check
0:39:19it out it's just that's a thing wait really you don't never heard of the knob
0:39:23feel YouTube channel no are you honestly surprised that we have never heard of
0:39:26that yes cuz it's like a meme it's like it's not like an obscure you know it's
0:39:30supposed to be funny like it's a guy who just films himself fiddling with knobs
0:39:33and I think he made a terrible mistake at the beginning of like the his format
0:39:40is he films his hand fiddling with knobs and then he doesn't say any words he makes noises
0:39:44like grunts like mmm like that's that's it and he's really confined himself by not having
0:39:50words like there's tons of these videos if he only had incorporated words it would be
0:39:54a much richer experience i feel like anyway um these knobs are are weighty and smooth
0:40:00and they feel expensive and like the best comparison is my Breville toaster which has
0:40:05like the worst feeling knobs i've ever felt on an appliance in my life and i don't understand
0:40:09Why this or all I do because they're made of plastic and they're flimsy, you know
0:40:12But like why why didn't they spend more money? Right? Anyway, great knobs one big problem with these knobs though
0:40:16You can't tell where the knobs are pointing
0:40:19because like that the knobs have like a matte black plastic around them with ridges and one ridge is ever so slightly taller than all the
0:40:26Other ridges and you can tell by feel where that ridge is
0:40:29But by looking at it forget it like and there's no markings on the front of the knob like a little red triangle or something
0:40:34So figuring out where the knobs are pointing like what what function is this set to what temperature is it set to you?
0:40:39Basically have to feel on the thing, especially if your toaster is in a slightly darker, you know under a counter type area
0:40:44They really blew it on those knobs. Great knob feel not great knobs and
0:40:50It's got a tray in it. That's kind of like a u-shape like dip down which seems weird to me, but then I realize
0:40:56What they want you to do and I actually confirm this by looking at the little pictures on the side of the boxes
0:41:01You can there's two different sets of slots
0:41:04You can slide the tray into but then within each slot you can flip the tray over to
0:41:08Do plus or minus like an inch because of the dip and the thing it's hard to explain
0:41:12I want to put a picture in the show notes
0:41:13But anyway, there's essentially four different positions
0:41:15You can put the thing in not just two two slots in each slot you can put in two different positions
0:41:20That seems like an interesting idea to get more flexibility of like different positions
0:41:24But overall I don't think it's worth it because like things get caught on the little u-shape thing
0:41:28You're trying to slide a piece of toast out if you have four slices in there
0:41:31So clever idea but in the end I would say ditched
0:41:34This does have a thing that tries to pull the tray out when you open and close the door
0:41:37But because you can reposition the tray they can't make a single mechanism to do that
0:41:42They have to put kind of like a metal hook that catches the the tray in both positions
0:41:47So if the thing is really high or really low it will catch a different areas
0:41:50Like it's a difficult problem to solve I understand if you want to make a movable tray
0:41:53How do you connect something to it so it comes out but again like it technically kind of works
0:41:58But if you ever have to you move the tray manually when you close the door again
0:42:02You let the little hook has to reengage and it bumps the tray up
0:42:05Lots of weird compromises this machine. It's about a minute slower than my toaster to toast a piece of bread
0:42:10but in all other ways it is very comparable to my toaster just a
0:42:15Bit dumber and a bit clunkier but with better knob feel so that that was kind of long
0:42:20I'm sorry
0:42:20But this was actually a very interesting toaster to better knob feel but worse overall knobs because of it the difficulty and detecting yes
0:42:27Yes, worse worse overall knob right totally because you can't tell where they're pointing
0:42:31But it feels good to turn them so in summary. This is better or worse than the Breville
0:42:37Oh, it's worse definitely
0:42:38I mean the Breville has like digital timers and like you know the it's just way better to
0:42:43Adjustments for a number of slices and and auto adjust the time based on the temperature inside the toaster the other Breville is a better
0:42:50toaster
0:42:51Functionally this just has some interesting aspects, and it is very similar to the Breville in terms of size
0:42:56and even appearance
0:42:58Do you think this is a good value for 80 bucks? It sounds like you're saying yes
0:43:01Yeah, I mean it's a little slow like a minute slower to toast
0:43:05That's that's in the borderline of like I feel like I feel like I would still probably take the black and Decker three knob over
0:43:11This because at least that toast that's my big hang up. It's my personal thing
0:43:14I feel I don't want to waste that long for toast if it's into the four minute range for a piece of toast
0:43:17No, like I you know, I I would still probably take the smaller more conventional also three knob by the way black and Decker
0:43:25Over this thing. It's just kind of a dead ringer for the Breville, but like I can see where that extra
0:43:31You know hundred whatever dollars went for mine
0:43:34Thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity for sponsoring our show once again
0:43:39All right, we got some pretty good feedback from Kitty John. Do you want to talk about this?
0:43:44yeah, this was on the topic of
0:43:47Watches replacing phones. I think we have another piece of feedback about this as well and her idea was
0:43:55A lot of the features that the phone has, not the phone has, the watch has that don't
0:44:00necessarily seem to be watch related, specifically all the little things about sending little
0:44:08pictures to people and the 3D emoji and all the different fitness app type things.
0:44:14Obviously you need to have an accelerometer in there or whatever, but the phone has an
0:44:16accelerometer.
0:44:17The phone has a screen.
0:44:18The phone has all these things.
0:44:19Why are they on the watch now?
0:44:20In that aspect, this is true of a lot of Apple products.
0:44:23the new glory product is seems to get a lot of the cool features first and then they trickle
0:44:29down.
0:44:30This happened a long time with like, hey, iOS got some cool feature and then eventually
0:44:33it came to the Mac and then it reversed the direction a few times there.
0:44:38I don't know if those things will ever come to the phone.
0:44:40They're right that there's nothing stopping them from being on the phone, including all
0:44:43the fitness tracking stuff, because hey, the phone's got an accelerometer and everything
0:44:45too.
0:44:46You can't do obviously the blood pressure or the pulse stuff, but everything else could
0:44:50happen on the phone.
0:44:51be a shame if all the advancement of those features happens on the watch instead of the phone,
0:44:56but I would kind of understand it. And the second one is like things like watch faces,
0:45:01with the complications on them and everything. The iOS home screen, as a bazillion people have
0:45:06pointed out many many times, including many Android fans, the iOS home screen could be a
0:45:11lot cooler if it supported essentially complications, otherwise known as widgets, or you know,
0:45:16any kind of customization so you could make your lock screen or your home screen more customizable
0:45:21than you can now. Apple has been moving slightly in that direction with the, you know, the
0:45:25notification center and the ability to put widgets in there and stuff, but in the end,
0:45:29the home screen, you know, springboard is still just a big grid of icons with some clumsy
0:45:34foldering thrown in. And I think I would, you know, if I could have complications, you
0:45:40know, in scare quotes on the iOS home screen, I think that would be a plus. But again, we'll
0:45:45see if that ever comes, instead of back to the Mac, back to the iPhone in this case.
0:45:50(laughing)
0:45:51I mean, and part of the reason why I think we don't have,
0:45:54you know, we have complications on the watch case,
0:45:55but you don't have complications on your lock screen
0:45:57on your phone, I think part of the reason why
0:46:00is just inertia.
0:46:01You know, like first of all, you do have
0:46:03the Today View widgets, which I personally don't use,
0:46:05'cause I don't use Today View.
0:46:07And I would definitely use lock screen complications
0:46:11long before I'd use Today View stuff.
0:46:13But keep in mind, so not only do they have
0:46:16like an existing thing that kind of does that,
0:46:19Because iOS has been around for so long
0:46:21and is so powerful within the company,
0:46:24even though it is not like the glory product
0:46:26that the watch is right now,
0:46:28there's inertia with managerial decisions there.
0:46:32So somewhere in Apple, probably pretty high up,
0:46:35there's some manager or VP holding tight to the idea
0:46:38that there should not be widgets on an iPhone home screen,
0:46:40as far as you know.
0:46:41I mean, maybe iOS 9 changes this, who knows, but I doubt it.
0:46:44So somewhere there's somebody who decided that
0:46:46a long time ago and is sticking with that decision
0:46:49is not letting that change yet.
0:46:50And anything that's been around for a while
0:46:53is gonna have these kind of people.
0:46:54Like, there's been a lot of discussion this week
0:46:57about the Mac App Store, because there was that app,
0:47:01what was it called?
0:47:02Reveal?
0:47:03- Redacted. - Redacted, yeah.
0:47:05That hit number one and made very little money
0:47:08being number one.
0:47:08And even though it's not quite number one,
0:47:10it's not quite, anyway, doesn't matter.
0:47:12Lot of discussion about the Mac App Store
0:47:14and how much it sucks.
0:47:15Personally, I think the Mac App Store situation,
0:47:18it can be blamed on one major thing, and that's sandboxing.
0:47:22You know, like the app review, the 30% cut,
0:47:26lack of upgrade pricing, all those things hurt,
0:47:29but none of them hurt as much as sandboxing did,
0:47:31in my opinion.
0:47:33I think sandboxing on the Mac has been a massive loss,
0:47:37a massive net loss overall.
0:47:39And it has cost the Mac App Store a lot of good apps
0:47:44and a lot of developer goodwill.
0:47:46But somewhere in Apple, there's clearly somebody
0:47:49who has power who is keeping sandboxing there
0:47:52and keeping sandboxing a requirement
0:47:53to be in the Mac App Store.
0:47:55And so, even though it looks like it might not
0:47:58be the best idea for the product,
0:48:00just the fact is when you have a big company,
0:48:02you have people, you have power,
0:48:04you have power struggles sometimes,
0:48:06you have debates internally,
0:48:07there's these other factors that keep things
0:48:09the way they are, even if it's not ideal.
0:48:11So in this case, the watch comes up
0:48:13and the watch is kind of a clean slate.
0:48:14I mean, you know, it seems to run some variant of iOS,
0:48:17but it is basically a clean slate in like
0:48:20the things it offers, the things it doesn't,
0:48:21the UI it offers, where things are allowed,
0:48:23where things aren't allowed.
0:48:25And so it was able to do things that
0:48:27we might not see for a while on iOS.
0:48:30- Not the sidetrack on this thing,
0:48:32but in the sandboxing, the guy at Apple who thinks
0:48:36they should do sandboxing, I think I mostly agree with that.
0:48:39Like, I think sandboxing is a positive direction
0:48:44for the Mac to go, but the execution of that,
0:48:46of the implementation of that policy
0:48:48left a lot to be desired.
0:48:50Having it become mandatory before it was full featured,
0:48:52right, having there be so few ways for apps to,
0:48:57to, you know, like to do things outside of sandboxing
0:49:02on a case by case basis with exceptions.
0:49:04Like it just, I feel like if sandbox,
0:49:07even if sandboxing had sprung into existence
0:49:10in its current state immediately,
0:49:13like not that you can do that because you know it needs to be developed to some degree
0:49:16but like the capabilities that were possible in sandboxing early on were just so limited
0:49:21and so broken and so weird and so buggy to mandate people going to that was just that
0:49:26was getting off on the wrong foot.
0:49:28I think you do have to bring them back towards a sandboxing type environment but the way
0:49:32to get there is like not the way they've done it so I feel like that is more of an execution
0:49:38fumble than a theoretical fumble and I do think that there will always be things that
0:49:43that are outside the sandbox and should be allowed to be on the Mac App Store with caveats,
0:49:48with some kind of warning, blah, blah, blah, but like moving that direction is good. I
0:49:52mean, maybe it's similar with all the other decisions that like you may agree with the
0:49:56end state goal, but you don't agree that the way that Apple plans to get there is going
0:50:02to be successful or has been beneficial.
0:50:04Yeah, that's, I mean, that's basically how I feel. Like sandboxing in theory is a huge
0:50:09security improvement. And I would like to be in the place where everything is sandboxed
0:50:14properly, but I agree that the way it's been done has been pretty miserable. And the reality
0:50:22is you have this system that is, you know, opt-in by a very small number of apps. It's
0:50:29not preventing Mac malware. It's not preventing major apps from just going around the app
0:50:33an app store and song themselves elsewhere.
0:50:36There's still tons of software that is made
0:50:39and run every day that's not sandboxed,
0:50:41including a lot of Apple software,
0:50:43because it's either not sandboxed or sandboxed technically,
0:50:46but is given these blanket permissions
0:50:49to do anything it wants,
0:50:50and so it's kind of not really sandboxed.
0:50:53So in theory, it's a great idea
0:50:56if everything on the system can be properly sandboxed.
0:50:59In practice, how do we get there?
0:51:01What they've done so far has been miserable the best thing
0:51:04For sandboxing like the best use to sandboxing and Apple is doing this as well as for Apple to sandbox its stuff
0:51:10And it has been it's been sandboxing tons of its demon processes parts of the OS like
0:51:15You know sandboxing has to exist Apple should be the primary user of it. They should be applying it
0:51:21Pretty strictly to all parts of the OS that they possibly can to have them have the least privileges at least access so and so
0:51:27And during that process, applying it to their GUI apps,
0:51:30applying it to, you know,
0:51:31they should be dogfooding this like crazy.
0:51:33They should be ringing it out, figuring out everything.
0:51:36And then offering it to developers as,
0:51:38this is a way for you to write your app
0:51:41in a way that you don't have to worry about some bug
0:51:42hosing the entire person's computer.
0:51:45Like sell it as a benefit, not as like,
0:51:47you have to do this because we say so.
0:51:49And if your app doesn't work because of it, oh well,
0:51:51you get an exception that's on a ticking time bomb
0:51:53that's gonna run out in about a year.
0:51:55So either stop selling your app or make a new app.
0:51:58Like it was just done so badly.
0:51:59And I feel like the sandboxing technology
0:52:02had to be developed, Apple should be using it.
0:52:04All app developers can use it, should be using it,
0:52:06but it should not be,
0:52:07it should not have been warping the Mac app store
0:52:09in the way that it did, pushing out good apps
0:52:11entirely out of the store, making people discouraged
0:52:14to not even want to develop a Mac app.
0:52:15Because I know because they're like,
0:52:17"Well, it doesn't even matter.
0:52:18My idea won't even work with sandboxing anyway,
0:52:19so why do I even bother?"
0:52:21It's just been not great.
0:52:24Yeah, it seems to me that a lot of times, Apple is "do as I say, not as I do."
0:52:32And I think sandboxing is a great example of that.
0:52:34And it's unfortunate because I think a lot of the pain that developers feel, Apple either
0:52:41feels it and says, "Oh, we'll just not deal with that."
0:52:44You know, "Oh, this sandboxing, we can't do what we want with sandboxing.
0:52:47Well, screw it, we're Apple, we don't need to bother."
0:52:49Or, you know, there are some times, like with CloudKit, where it's embraced.
0:52:56It's CloudKit that I'm thinking of, right?
0:52:58That photos runs on?
0:52:59Yeah, okay.
0:53:00So CloudKit gets embraced, and from everything I've heard, CloudKit is actually really solid
0:53:04because Apple dogfooded it.
0:53:05So it's unfortunate to me that more of that doesn't happen.
0:53:09Or maybe if it is happening, that nobody knows it, because we're left to assume it's not
0:53:15happening, and blame that as one of the big issues with, say, sandboxing. But maybe it
0:53:21is happening, we're just not aware of it.
0:53:23- I don't know, I mean, to me, like, the Mac App Store as a whole, to me, and I don't,
0:53:29I've never had an app for sale in the Mac App Store, so I haven't seen that side of
0:53:33it, but just from reading what our friends say who are in it, and from using it as a
0:53:38user, it just, it seems like the Mac App Store is like Apple at its worst. Like, all of Apple's
0:53:44like the worst things they do, they do most of those things
0:53:48in the Mac App Store, and also there's very little upside.
0:53:51So like in the iOS App Store, you have to put up with 30%,
0:53:55you have to put up with all these rules and restrictions,
0:53:57you have to do app review, but the upside is
0:54:00you get access to this massive, massive customer base
0:54:03that is just incredibly high in volume
0:54:06and there's tons of money floating around
0:54:08and it's fairly easy, well not fairly easy,
0:54:11it's possible for many people to make a good living there.
0:54:14The Mac App Store has all of the same downsides
0:54:18as the iOS App Store, plus it has a way smaller
0:54:22install base than iOS.
0:54:25Even among people who use Macs,
0:54:27a smaller percentage of them use the Mac App Store.
0:54:31Also, the Mac App Store app is, I think,
0:54:34one of the worst apps that ships with OS X.
0:54:37I mean, it's just a terrible app.
0:54:38It's buggy, it is confusing to navigate
0:54:41even when it works properly,
0:54:43It is visually really wacky and inconsistent
0:54:46and dated looking.
0:54:48I mean, there are so, it's just a terrible app.
0:54:50- The mental model of it always blows my mind
0:54:52because like how many people know
0:54:53that if you click the update button
0:54:55and immediately quit the app,
0:54:56that the upstate still continues in the background?
0:54:58Like who would guess that based on the model
0:55:00of any app they've ever used?
0:55:01Like, 'cause it's so integrated into the system
0:55:03with the software update D
0:55:04or whatever the hell's running in the background.
0:55:06Like the fact that it could be downloading updates
0:55:08when the, like, it just totally breaks the model
0:55:10of an app that most people are used to.
0:55:12on the Mac, so it's super confusing.
0:55:15- Yeah, I mean, so the Mac App Store,
0:55:17like it has all the downsides of the iOS App Store,
0:55:21plus a number of additional downsides,
0:55:24and very little of the same upside.
0:55:26And so it's no wonder that no one's in it,
0:55:29and there's no activity there.
0:55:31- The biggest downside is, sadly,
0:55:33that, sadly for everybody involved,
0:55:35that there are alternatives to it.
0:55:37Like, for all the things that developers hate
0:55:40about the iOS App Store, about the 30%,
0:55:42about not having your own customers, about not even be able to respond to reviews in
0:55:45the app, like just all those terrible things.
0:55:47On the Mac people are like, "Oh, well we don't have to deal with that, we'll just sell it
0:55:51ourselves."
0:55:52Right?
0:55:53We're already a big company, we already know how to sell things, we don't have to sell
0:55:54in the Mac App Store, we have the alternative, right?
0:55:56And so that means that they get all the benefits of being able to talk directly to their customers,
0:56:02be able to sell updates, like all that stuff, but they also get all the downsides that Apple
0:56:06is trying to help them to avoid.
0:56:08Like essentially, if there had been only one place where you could get software ready for
0:56:11your Mac, and I'm not recommending this because I am an old cranky man who likes things the
0:56:15old way. But anyway, if that had been the case, the Mac App Store, ironically, would
0:56:19actually be much better, because people would be forced to get into it, that would probably
0:56:24force Apple to deal with some of its rules, you know, like...
0:56:28Well, that hasn't happened on iOS. It has, though, because like, I mean, think
0:56:31about the, oh, no interpreters. Okay, well, I guess games can have interpreters because
0:56:34they all use scripting language. That's a perfect example of, let's make a bunch of
0:56:39really strict rules and then let's have unforeseen consequences and what EA
0:56:44says look you got to let us run Lua scripts that's how our whole games work
0:56:47EA is big enough for them to go all right all right you can't run
0:56:50interpreter unless your game running a blah blah blah blah blah and like every
0:56:54other place where something has been restricted in the iOS App Store if a big
0:56:58enough or enough important companies you know if it's if it's stopping them from
0:57:02selling in there or if they if they can't get their applications I'm like
0:57:06just think of what the Mac App Store would be like if that was the only way
0:57:08Adobe could get Photoshop onto the Mac. It would have to be very different.
0:57:12Sandboxing could not exist. What is Apple gonna say? We're not interested in
0:57:16Photoshop for the Mac anymore, sorry. You know, something would have to give. This
0:57:21is all just a fantasy hypothetical scenario, not something I recommend you.
0:57:24It could never actually happen for the Mac being the way it is. General purpose
0:57:27computer is not a closed system like iOS blah blah blah blah. I understand all this.
0:57:30I'm just saying like, due to that reality, the Mac App Store is even worse. It's
0:57:37even further handicapped by the existence of a better, readily available alternative
0:57:43that Mac developers are already experienced with.
0:57:45All right, our last piece of follow-up is from Sarah, and she had some very interesting
0:57:50points with regard to the watch, which, John, you alluded to earlier. Do you want to tell
0:57:55us about these?
0:57:56Yeah, this was about Marco talking about, again, the watch replacing the phone. And
0:58:03And I said that I hadn't heard anyone saying that, and Marko said it, other than the people
0:58:07looking at his watch and saying, "Oh, that's the new thing, that's going to replace the
0:58:09phone now, right?"
0:58:10Which is really just, you know, a sort of excitement about a new thing and not a particular
0:58:14plan to do so.
0:58:16Here's an actual plan to do so.
0:58:17She says, "As soon as the watch has a cellular radio, I'll be ditching my phone and going
0:58:21with a watch plus iPad setup."
0:58:24And the reasons for this are things that hadn't occurred to me, because I don't have these
0:58:27problems and the problems are women's clothing don't have as many pockets.
0:58:32you don't always have a place to your phone and the alternative of putting in a bag is
0:58:35a pain she refers in his email to the tyranny of the handbag is a real thing describes a phenomenon
0:58:42that I admit I also have not seen says if you've ever been to a nightclub you'll have seen women
0:58:46dancing awkwardly unable to move properly because they can't put their bag down anywhere or a group
0:58:50of women dancing in a circle with their bags on the floor in the center so they can keep them safe
0:58:53but the women can still dance uh this is not this is not a good situation and not something that
0:58:59comes up. The idea is if you can have a watch on your wrist you don't have to worry about a
0:59:04pocket to find to put the thing in. You don't worry about putting something valuable in your
0:59:07purse and finding someplace safe to put your purse. And I've seen a lot of watch reviews and a lot of
0:59:13it is about like the freedom of not having to fish your phone out of your pocket. I think there is a
0:59:19potential freedom in not only not having to fish your phone out of your pocket but maybe not having
0:59:24to have your phone to perform some limited set of tasks. Like if you just want to sort of be in
0:59:28touch by phone and be able to send and receive text messages in some rudimentary way, maybe
0:59:34the freedom that affords is worth the massive drop in functionality that you would be sacrificing
0:59:40by not having a phone but only having a watch.
0:59:42So there's one vote for a person who's willing to do that as soon as the watch becomes a
0:59:48little bit more independent.
0:59:49Yeah, that's a very good point that we didn't think of because we didn't ask, and this is
0:59:55one of the things we're trying to improve.
0:59:58- And you, if you went on a dog walk, right?
1:00:01If you could go on a dog walk with Bluetooth headphones
1:00:03and you know, I mean, you'd probably do this now
1:00:04with just preloading stuff onto the watch or whatever,
1:00:06but like, wouldn't it be nice?
1:00:08You always say like, I don't necessarily take my wallet,
1:00:10don't necessarily take my keys,
1:00:11but I do always take my phone.
1:00:13Would you feel like you could get into a place
1:00:15where you're gonna go out for a dog walk
1:00:16and just like not have, just have your watch on
1:00:19and that's it?
1:00:19Like if you're, what would they need to add to your watch
1:00:22for you to do that and not have to feel
1:00:23like it's an inconvenience?
1:00:25- Well, it would need to be able to run overcast.
1:00:27That's number one.
1:00:28independently of the phone, so not with WatchKit,
1:00:30an actual native Overcast app that would have my stuff
1:00:32on it synced and everything.
1:00:33So that's what I would need to do that.
1:00:35The reality is I wouldn't face this problem personally.
1:00:37- You always have a pocket for your phone,
1:00:39but I'm saying like, what if you didn't have to take it?
1:00:42It's like, oh, well Overcast is,
1:00:44because Overcast is not an app
1:00:45that you're constantly interacting with for the most part.
1:00:47Like you're listening, right?
1:00:48So it's the ideal case of like,
1:00:49oh, well if that's all you need,
1:00:50if you just need your podcast,
1:00:51if you just need a native Overcast on your watch
1:00:53and your watch has a cell radio or whatever,
1:00:56If you got all that, you can snap your fingers and have it,
1:00:59would you find yourself,
1:01:00like you'd be taking your phone out of habit,
1:01:01but then eventually you'd be like,
1:01:03maybe you'd use it if you wanted to send
1:01:05a long text to somebody,
1:01:06you don't want to dictate it into your wrist, I don't know.
1:01:08I don't have a watch, so I can't really make a call on this.
1:01:11- Yeah, I don't know.
1:01:12I mean, I see why a lot of other people would want this.
1:01:16Like runners or joggers, they could use it
1:01:19'cause the chances of a phone flying out of your pocket
1:01:23if you try to keep it in jogging shorts is way higher
1:01:25than if you keep it in the jeans and terrible cargo shorts
1:01:28that I wear when I walk my dog.
1:01:30- Yeah, they don't even need cell radio,
1:01:31they just need a GPS.
1:01:32- Yeah, and a lot of the exercise trackers
1:01:36have GPS for that reason.
1:01:38Apple Watch doesn't yet, but we'll see about that.
1:01:41And that's why I can see the Apple Watch adding GPS
1:01:45before I see it adding a cell radio, necessarily.
1:01:48- Yeah, and it has lower power.
1:01:50My wife has a big Garmin, a Garmin basically wristwatch,
1:01:53it's the ugliest thing you've ever seen in your life,
1:01:55but a big Garmin GPS wristwatch.
1:01:56And she has an iPhone 5S, right?
1:01:58But she doesn't like to run with the phone
1:01:59'cause it's big, right?
1:02:01So she puts the Garmin,
1:02:02and why doesn't she just have a step tracker?
1:02:04Like she wants to know exactly how far she ran
1:02:07and maybe the route she took.
1:02:08And step tracking is not as accurate as GPS
1:02:11for measuring the thing.
1:02:12So she wears the big bulky Garmin thing.
1:02:13So she didn't even want to watch,
1:02:15but maybe if, Apple Watch that is,
1:02:18if the Apple Watch had GPS,
1:02:20I think she could be compelled to buy one
1:02:22or become more interested.
1:02:23- Well, and I'll tell you what,
1:02:24I don't think the Apple Watch can do distance accurately
1:02:28without the phone present, 'cause I don't know how it would.
1:02:31- Well, the documentation that I've read,
1:02:32although I haven't tried this,
1:02:34is that if you keep the phone with you,
1:02:37it'll obviously use the phone's GPS
1:02:40to kind of cross-reference and corroborate what it thinks,
1:02:42but it knows how tall you are,
1:02:44it knows how many steps you're taking,
1:02:46and so it makes a best-guestimate
1:02:48based on what it thinks your stride is
1:02:50and how many steps you've taken
1:02:51to guess how far you've run. And I think that it will kind of train itself based on the
1:03:00times that you actually have your phone with you and do the same things.
1:03:03Yeah, I think I saw Ren tweet something like showing she brought a GPS with her and also
1:03:08the, uh, also the Apple watch after she had calibrated and show they were only off by
1:03:11like, you know, a fraction of a mile or something to try to show that it was, you would think
1:03:16that step tracking could always, would always be off by some amount, but that actually it
1:03:19get pretty close. But it's not just distance. The people who want GPSs, they want to see
1:03:23their route. They want to see a map. I ran through the park. I did this. Here's where
1:03:27I was going slow. Here's where I was going fast. That's what you want. So you need two-dimensional
1:03:31positioning at the very least.
1:03:33And for whatever it's worth, the two-dimensional positioning and distance tracking when I have
1:03:37the phone with me on my dog walks is great. I verified there's a site called GMAP pedometer
1:03:44that lets you just like it's an overlay on Google Maps and you can just like
1:03:49click out the route you took and it'll tell you how long that was. I love
1:03:52tracking this now like so I've never been into activity before. I've never
1:03:57tracked anything about my activity. I've never cared about fitness. I've never
1:04:01regularly done any fitness except I do walk my dog most days and we have a very
1:04:06hilly town and we walk between three quarters of a mile and two and a half
1:04:11miles depending on weather and ability and everything. So I've now actually been really
1:04:17enjoying tracking that and seeing, oh, I have, I've only gone 1.2 miles, maybe I should,
1:04:23you know, take this turn here and go up this block and add and I keep finding myself like
1:04:28adding to the route just to help me, you know, finish up my circles on the watch or to beat
1:04:34yesterday's record or whatever. It's really, you know, this gamification stuff of fitness,
1:04:40I know that it might not work forever.
1:04:42This stuff tends to work for a week
1:04:43and then you give up on it.
1:04:44- You don't have the antibodies.
1:04:46That's what's happening here.
1:04:47You've been infected by fitness gamification
1:04:50and you have not built up an immunity to it
1:04:52from having had 17 different Fitwits
1:04:54go through the wash or whatever else.
1:04:55So this is your first experience with this
1:04:57and it does have hooks.
1:05:00It has hooks.
1:05:02- I'm under no impression that this will last forever.
1:05:05I hope it does, but I know myself and how lazy I am
1:05:08and how much I hate fitness, so this will probably wear off,
1:05:12but right now, just wanting to finish those circles
1:05:16has gotten me to move more
1:05:18and to complete my goals every day.
1:05:21On my watch face, I have only a couple complications,
1:05:27and one of them is the activity rings.
1:05:30Whenever I look at the watch, I'm seeing that.
1:05:33So it's not like this thing I have to remember to check,
1:05:35like a Fitbit or even a pedometer app,
1:05:37with the David Smith speedometer app.
1:05:39I have to remember to check those.
1:05:41This, I don't even have to remember to check.
1:05:43It's annoying me on the watch face every day
1:05:46until it's complete.
1:05:48And so that, it actually does work.
1:05:50Before the watch came out, I was concerned
1:05:54about the big sensor bulge on the bottom of it
1:05:56for the fitness sensors.
1:05:57And I made a couple remarks to friends saying,
1:05:59"You know, if they made a version
1:06:01"that didn't have that sensor bulge
1:06:03"and lacked all the fitness features,
1:06:05"I'd rather have that version
1:06:06"because it would be thinner.
1:06:07It might be more comfortable than not having that bulge there.
1:06:10It might be lighter, blah, blah, blah.
1:06:12Yeah, turns out I use those features and I love those features.
1:06:16So I'm really glad there is no option not to have them because I would have picked that
1:06:20option and I would have missed all this and missed out on the health benefits and stuff
1:06:23thereof.
1:06:24So, yeah, I'm very happy with this.
1:06:27Real time follow up on my wife wanting an Apple Watch.
1:06:29She emphasizes that the main reason why she doesn't want the watch is because she can't
1:06:33wear it at work for security reasons.
1:06:36So I should have I should have thought of that why it doesn't have a camera or anything has a microphone
1:06:41I think she can't have anything with Bluetooth or something what that's so peculiar
1:06:45There's lots of she has lots of security restriction where she works, but anyway yeah
1:06:49Otherwise I assume she would get it just to try it out. Just to see what it's like
1:06:53Yeah, I would I'd like to echo everything that Marco said and we're gonna well
1:06:58I guess rather than talk about in a minute. We'll just talk about it right now. I did get an Apple watch I
1:07:04Ended up I think I had already talked about how I had ordered one on launch day at about 7 10 after 7 in the morning
1:07:10on Eastern Time
1:07:12What ended up happening was a listener of this show Natan gesher was nice enough to offer me a spare watch that he had had
1:07:18He became upon the spare watch because he had ordered to the one that I always wanted which is the 42 millimeter space black
1:07:24Sport space gray, excuse me sport
1:07:26He ordered one of those and then ordered a different one. I believe it was the 42 millimeter white sport and
1:07:33decided that, oh, he actually liked the white sport or whatever it was, I'm pretty sure that's right though,
1:07:39and he was kind enough to offer to sell me the extra 42 millimeter space gray sport that he had.
1:07:47And so that's what I did. It was extremely gracious of him. He didn't need to do that. He could have
1:07:52absolutely raked me over the coals in terms of cost. So I am forever indebted to Natan. But anyways,
1:07:58I got my Apple watch and I really like it and
1:08:01Hopefully by the time this airs I will have put up my review of the Apple watch on my blog
1:08:07And so hopefully you will see a link in the show notes
1:08:09If you don't then yell at me to publish it
1:08:11but either way I completely agree of Marco with everything you said that having the Rings as a complication which I do and
1:08:18Seeing the nudge to stand up in seeing oh god
1:08:22I really need to just go for like a 10-minute power walk around the neighborhood that
1:08:27Absolutely has gotten me moving more than I did before and yes
1:08:30Maybe in a month or even in a week that'll all go away, and I'll just find this to be
1:08:35Silly, but today. I love it, and it's absolutely causing me to move more
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1:11:13- Yes, please resist the urge to write your own internet.
1:11:16- Please, for everyone involved.
1:11:18It never works out.
1:11:19- Nope, amen to that.
1:11:21All right, so Facebook came out with instant articles.
1:11:25- The gist of it is that Facebook has now launched
1:11:28this platform system, whatever you wanna call it,
1:11:32for publishers like the New York Times and Buzzfeed
1:11:35and TechCrunch, like for major publishers.
1:11:38I don't know, I think it works with any webpage,
1:11:40but we'll see, anyway.
1:11:42They've launched this thing where publishers
1:11:43can now have articles that pop up and can be read
1:11:48completely within the Facebook apps and the Facebook site.
1:11:52I think the site, at least the apps.
1:11:53The apps are what matters most anyway for mobile stuff.
1:11:56And so the idea here is interesting.
1:11:59So, you know, there's, so publishers,
1:12:01so the idea is they don't want you going
1:12:04to the publisher's websites to read them
1:12:06or popping up a web view in the app,
1:12:10like on the newyorktimes.com or whatever.
1:12:12want the article to display directly within the Facebook app, natively in the interface,
1:12:17have all the images and stuff loaded up there and be able to do dynamic, cool animated stuff
1:12:22and everything else. I have a pretty cynical view of this, but I think it's inevitable.
1:12:29Jon, what do you think?
1:12:30>> Jon Streeter The first part of what I was interested in
1:12:32was the instant part, because just technologically, like, you know, this is a native app, you
1:12:37know, as Gruber said, it looks like it's by the same people who did the paper app. I saw
1:12:40tweeted by Mike Mattes, that's how I find out about it, so I assume he's involved.
1:12:44It's very slick looking.
1:12:45The pitch to the user is you're going to launch Facebook anyway.
1:12:52You're going to scroll through your Facebook feed, right?
1:12:55That's something you're going to do anyway.
1:12:57When you see something interesting in your Facebook feed, like someone posted an article
1:13:01like "Oh, I saw this girl, you might want to check it out too, or have some commentary."
1:13:05When you tap on that, whether it's like a movie review or something for you to be outraged
1:13:09about and then yell about on Facebook or whatever it is, they want you to be able to tap on
1:13:14that thing and not have to wait for a web page to load.
1:13:17They want you to tap and immediately be reading the article, right?
1:13:20And of course all the demos are of, you know, articles from National Geographic or something
1:13:23with a beautiful picture in it or whatever.
1:13:26But as I think as Gruber emphasized, like, unlike Marco's traditional criticism of paper,
1:13:31which is that the app looks great if all your friends are beautiful people who are always
1:13:34on vacation in California, which we should have a ding for that too.
1:13:39The instant thing is like, okay, well, this is not articles that your friends made.
1:13:44These are articles in, you know, the New York Times or, you know, the Huffington Post or
1:13:48whatever.
1:13:49Like, these are professionally produced things, you know, and the chances of them looking
1:13:53nice and enticing your timeline is really high.
1:13:56But they want to make it so that when you're scrolling through your timeline that you can
1:13:58consume those as easily as you can read a comment from somebody.
1:14:02They just want you to tap on it, and it's instantly there.
1:14:05And that is a, if that works as advertised, that's a great end user benefit because people
1:14:12do scroll through the timelines and people do want to occasionally read things.
1:14:15And I know that I often feel I would like to read that, but I don't want to wait for
1:14:19the thing to load, which sounds so stupid.
1:14:20It's like you can't wait two seconds for something to load.
1:14:22Like you're on wifi, you're on iPhone six.
1:14:23It's not going to take an age to load, but sometimes you're just like, just the idea
1:14:27of the screen blanking, going through a spinner and having to hit the back button, blah, blah,
1:14:30like just waiting for that.
1:14:31I don't know.
1:14:32Maybe we're all spoiled, but you've seen.
1:14:35I would use the analogy of like the studies that I think Google or Yahoo did or whatever
1:14:39of like, what does an extra 200 milliseconds of response time on a server do to the purchase
1:14:44rates of items in a store?
1:14:46And it's like tremendous effects of a tiny speed change of page loading.
1:14:53You would think like, does shaving 200 milliseconds off of the product page make a difference
1:14:59in sales?
1:15:00And the answer is like, yes, a tremendous difference.
1:15:03There's a huge cliff after which people just aren't interested and lose, you know
1:15:06Like and so that effect I think is real for people as they say
1:15:09Marco can add a filter that makes my voice sound like his here engaging with content as in reading the stuff
1:15:16Reading the stuff that's in the time like someone posted link to an article. Are you gonna actually read that article?
1:15:20You're just gonna scroll right past it if it loads quote unquote instantly
1:15:23Then you won't and the reason I think this is an interesting reframing is because as we all know
1:15:29It can't actually like there's nothing instant. All it's doing is pre-loading it right? That's all you know. It's just
1:15:34Spending a different time doing it rather than waiting and you know
1:15:38Tons of browsers do is Chrome
1:15:40I think was the first one to really aggressively do it like prefetching all the pages linked from a page
1:15:44Google prefetches the first search results so in Chrome, so you know like
1:15:48We're going to load it before you tap it so that by the time you do tap it. It is loaded
1:15:52It's also it's also presumably loading less stuff like you know it's probably also
1:15:57not loading the million different JavaScript trackers.
1:16:00It'll load some of them because it is compatible
1:16:02with publisher's tracking system, the publisher's ad systems.
1:16:06So it will be loading some of that stuff,
1:16:08but I think I would bet, and it's not loading
1:16:11giant style sheets, giant JavaScript includes
1:16:14for the site theme and the header and everything.
1:16:16- You don't think it is?
1:16:18- I'm betting that it's only loading the article
1:16:22plus tracking stuff and ad stuff.
1:16:24Not necessarily the tremendous sidebars,
1:16:26all the related content, I mean, if you look at,
1:16:28if you look at a typical article page for a major site,
1:16:31there's so much other crap on that page,
1:16:34and so many includes for style and JavaScript and stuff,
1:16:38like there's so much stuff.
1:16:40A lot of that's still gonna be there in the Facebook version
1:16:42'cause they're gonna want their tracking
1:16:43and they're gonna want their money,
1:16:44and Facebook supports those things.
1:16:45But I bet it's gonna be a lot less
1:16:48just by not having like the headers, the footers,
1:16:49the sidebars, all that crap that's always loaded.
1:16:52- I was just thinking they would want it to be
1:16:53more time for that filter again, a richer experience,
1:16:56which is code for gonna take a year to download
1:16:58'cause it's gonna have a lot of stuff in it.
1:16:59But it could be better.
1:17:01It's conceivable that it could be a lighter weight
1:17:03due to the shared resources
1:17:04among all of these instant articles.
1:17:06But basically it's time-shifting.
1:17:09It's clever pre-caching of things
1:17:11that we will fetch it for you
1:17:14so that when you tap it, it is there,
1:17:15which is a great idea for a thing,
1:17:17but trying for an application benefit,
1:17:19but trying to sell that as instant,
1:17:21I don't see how that can fulfill its promise
1:17:24because it's gotta download this thing sometime.
1:17:27And if your connection is slow and you launch the app
1:17:29and you scroll through it, it's not good,
1:17:31and you tap on the first thing you see.
1:17:33And if it doesn't have, you know,
1:17:35it's gonna have background downloading.
1:17:36Like I'm sure they're gonna do everything on their power
1:17:38on the iOS platform to try to get this stuff downloaded
1:17:40before you tap on it.
1:17:41But sometimes you're gonna win the race.
1:17:43And when you do that, are you gonna be like,
1:17:44hey, I thought this was supposed to be instant
1:17:45because it won't, it won't be instant.
1:17:47It's a reasonable selling point that like,
1:17:50but like putting it right in the name
1:17:52may end up backfiring them.
1:17:53So that's one thing, just simple technology behind
1:17:57what is this thing, what is the selling point
1:17:59for users or whatever.
1:18:00- Well, I mean, do you think the name is actually meant
1:18:04to be like, this is why Facebook is doing it?
1:18:08Or do you think the name is a red herring
1:18:10to convince people that they should do this thing
1:18:12that massively benefits Facebook?
1:18:14- Well, that's what I'm getting at.
1:18:15So like, this is the end user, this is the end user story.
1:18:17Why would a user be interested in this feature?
1:18:20Instant articles, you wanna read them,
1:18:21you don't have to wait, good.
1:18:22But it is the least interesting aspect of this feature
1:18:26from a sort of strategic perspective,
1:18:27because the strategic perspective is Facebook saying,
1:18:30we want to be the place where people get your content.
1:18:35Don't send them to your website.
1:18:36In fact, why do you even bother having a website?
1:18:38Why don't you do everything through us?
1:18:39We have this great ad network.
1:18:40We can do cool ad targeting.
1:18:42You could advertise through us.
1:18:42We'll let you keep 100% of the revenue
1:18:44from all the people who go through blah, blah, blah.
1:18:46It's totally great, guys.
1:18:47Come right in.
1:18:48You know, like, I hope all of the content providers
1:18:51smart enough to not sort of fall into this trap because it's giving Facebook a tremendous
1:18:57if this was super successful and it became one of those things like well you gotta have
1:19:00a Facebook Instant Article you can't there's no way you can get any traffic without doing
1:19:03that that spells bad news for everybody except for Facebook everybody consumers you know
1:19:09websites everybody and so I really now that I want to say that I hope it doesn't succeed
1:19:15but like I kind of I kind of do hope it doesn't succeed not because it's not a benefit to
1:19:20the end user, but because I don't want Facebook to be the gateway for most of the things that
1:19:28people read, because, ugh, no, I don't.
1:19:31- I mean, unfortunately, I think that's the reality, you know? And that, you know, I think
1:19:38we've been feeling for a while, and a lot of people, I don't think, are ready to see
1:19:42or admit this yet, but the web is really dramatically losing relevance. Not the internet, but the
1:19:50the web as viewed in web browsers,
1:19:54that is so dramatically losing relevance
1:19:56in the age of mobile and apps and native stuff now,
1:20:00and social stuff.
1:20:01The web is losing.
1:20:03It's not going to die.
1:20:05- I don't know if it's losing.
1:20:06I feel like this goes in cycles.
1:20:09Like you said, it's not gonna die.
1:20:12You can't kill it because it is unkillable, right?
1:20:14But it does go inside.
1:20:16It's kind of the same things that people said
1:20:17about giving Apple power by like,
1:20:19you shouldn't have a website.
1:20:20should just have an app, right? And that's the same exact situation. You wouldn't
1:20:24want to give Apple that power at all. But the way that looks like it's shaken out
1:20:27to me is that every website has an app, but it has not made the websites go away.
1:20:32And this Facebook thing looks much more capable of making the websites become
1:20:37like a relic. There's a New York Times app, but there's no way the New York
1:20:40Times app is ever going to make the New York Times website go away. There's a New
1:20:44York Times, if there was a New York Times instant article thing, because Facebook
1:20:47is just so much bigger than Apple
1:20:48and has already succeeded, has already gotten so far
1:20:52in getting everybody to consume everything
1:20:53through the Facebook feed that it's terrifying.
1:20:55They are closer to being able to suck publications in
1:20:59and make their websites irrelevant.
1:21:02- Right, I mean, this is way bigger
1:21:04than Google News ever was back in the day,
1:21:06when that was a big deal and publishers
1:21:08were trying to threaten to sue them
1:21:10but then they didn't wanna be blocked by them or admitted
1:21:12'cause that would be even more disastrous.
1:21:14This is like that times 10.
1:21:16I really do think that web browsing is really in trouble,
1:21:21and as a result, publishers are in trouble.
1:21:24I wrote an article with a terrible title about this
1:21:27about a year ago or something.
1:21:29I think it's very clear that all of this social usage,
1:21:34all the time people are spending using apps
1:21:37and using social networks on their phones and stuff,
1:21:40some of that is additive when people are just waiting
1:21:43in line at the bank or something
1:21:44where they weren't doing these things before.
1:21:46But a lot of that is also time that has been taken away
1:21:50from browsing the web, reading publishers' sites,
1:21:53reading RSS and stuff like that for the geeks.
1:21:56This has actually been,
1:21:59all this social activity is competing with that
1:22:03and has taken a lot of it.
1:22:05I worry a lot about the future of the web.
1:22:08I really don't think this is a small trend
1:22:11or a temporary thing or something that is guaranteed
1:22:14to just have the pendulum swing back the other way eventually. I think this is a major shift
1:22:19that people have voted with their time and with their activity and with their attention.
1:22:24They have voted for centralized proprietary ecosystems focused on social and snackable
1:22:31listicle traffic in these social networks, Facebook mostly, some Twitter, stuff like
1:22:37that. People have voted. That's where they're going. That's what they want the Internet
1:22:41to be. People on the whole don't care about the open web, they don't care about everyone
1:22:46having their own site that they own and control and being able to browse things through open
1:22:50standards, people don't care. A few geeks care, even we have moved so much of our activity
1:22:55to Twitter and stuff, like this is a massive trend that I think it would be unwise to ignore.
1:23:02And unfortunately, you know, just like when we moved from the previous systems that we
1:23:09had to the web, there was a lot of good that came from that,
1:23:12a lot of big numbers that came with that,
1:23:15a lot of new abilities that came with that,
1:23:17but not everything transitioned over.
1:23:19Not everybody was a winner there.
1:23:22And a lot of things just, well,
1:23:24that thing that used to work now doesn't.
1:23:27Or that role that you used to have,
1:23:29now we don't need you anymore.
1:23:31That is happening now with the move towards apps,
1:23:34the move towards social stuff,
1:23:36and with so much traffic to web publishers
1:23:39now coming from mobile and social usage,
1:23:42not coming from blog links and search engines
1:23:46and people browsing in web browsers on their computers.
1:23:50That shift is happening and has happened.
1:23:53We are already very much into that shift.
1:23:56- I characterized it as a series of swings
1:23:58but not so much as a pendulum,
1:23:59'cause like you said, one thing does supplant the other,
1:24:02but almost in terms of that we're getting
1:24:06a more balanced situation now and the sort of supremacy of the web was
1:24:10actually unbalanced because what the web let you do originally was read stuff
1:24:15like articles right and for a long time that since that was so dominant and it
1:24:21was like that defined the internet was the web right and what the web let you
1:24:25do is read stuff people were spending a lot more of their time reading stuff
1:24:30even if you want to lump RSS into that. And now we've shifted because there's
1:24:37ways to do things other than read stuff. You can text people, text messaging was
1:24:41one of the first shifts. Now I'm not just reading stuff, I'm writing stuff, right?
1:24:44You can play games, you can watch little movies, you can, you know, use native apps
1:24:50to do things that are very different than reading a big page of stuff. And so
1:24:56So I feel like this is an adjustment in terms of activity choices.
1:25:00Like people are reading the web less because they're doing things more.
1:25:03What are they doing on their phone?
1:25:04They're not doing the equivalent of reading the web, they're doing something different.
1:25:07And why couldn't they do that on the web?
1:25:08Because the web took a long time to get that kind of interactivity and everything.
1:25:12So I think maybe we're more imbalanced now.
1:25:14The reason this instant article thing is scary is because it is asking people to do the one
1:25:21thing that the web is best suited for, like reading stuff, publishing, a publishing platform,
1:25:28anybody can make a website, you can start publishing stuff, the entire world can read
1:25:32it, and what kind of stuff?
1:25:34How about a bunch of text and pictures, right?
1:25:36That is like the core competency of the text, reading things, of the web, reading things.
1:25:41If Facebook can get that into there, it's not even an interactive thing, it's not a
1:25:45social network, like the article's in a social network.
1:25:49reading the article, right? If they can pull that away from the web, now you're really
1:25:54starting to pull at the core of what the web does in a non-proprietary way. It's as if
1:26:01someone tried to replace email with a system that was exactly like email but 100% proprietary.
1:26:06And that so far hasn't worked, despite email being super terrible, way worse than the web
1:26:09ever was in terms of no authentication and spam and all the other things that we hate
1:26:13about email. The web has a leg up on that.
1:26:16Well, has that not worked? How about iMessage?
1:26:19But that's not email. Email is when you write a long form thing. Even text messaging hasn't
1:26:23like, you would think, "Oh, I have a hundred ways I could write to somebody. I could send
1:26:26them a Twitter DM, I could write to them in Slack, I could do this, I could do that,"
1:26:28and yet email survives, despite it being terrible.
1:26:31Facebook messages are pretty big.
1:26:33I know, but perhaps the main thing keeping email alive is that you can't even sign up
1:26:38for any service without an email. It is the linchpin of our entire system, right? What
1:26:42are you going to put in the, you know what I mean? I feel like the web has that same
1:26:45longevity, but it would be a huge mistake for anybody publishing on the web to give
1:26:49Facebook too much power. And with web publications struggling to figure out their monetization
1:26:54strategies and all this other stuff, they are vulnerable to being like, "Well, we've
1:27:00got to do something, and Facebook has a great advertising platform and they have a hodgillion
1:27:04users." And then you just wait a year and Facebook starts turning the screws and being
1:27:07like, "Actually, we're not going to show your article to a lot of people unless you
1:27:10pay us," which is their whole big thing.
1:27:13That's the thing, I mean, this is why this is such a terrible situation. I mean, I think
1:27:18because of the move towards everything being mobile, because so much traffic to publishers'
1:27:25websites now has to come from social sources, I'm not sure publishers have much of a choice.
1:27:30You know, it's just like when Google News, you know, when people threatened and made
1:27:35them block them and then like begged to be let back in. There's all these like, you know,
1:27:38where like one party has just tremendous power on the web
1:27:42and publishers pretty much have to play ball with them
1:27:45because they can't afford not to have that audience,
1:27:48not to have that traffic.
1:27:49Facebook is that platform today
1:27:52and publishers depend so much on getting social traffic
1:27:57and Facebook is so good at delivering that traffic sometimes
1:28:02and only if you pay and being really cagey about it.
1:28:05Like this is, of course that's their plan.
1:28:08Of course their plan is to move even more activity
1:28:12into Facebook.
1:28:13It comes from not only a position of greed,
1:28:18but also a position of just arrogance.
1:28:20Like our app is better than your website.
1:28:23You are incapable of making pages that load quickly
1:28:27even though this can be solved by smart web design
1:28:29and a good CDN.
1:28:30- And a lot of times they're right though, unfortunately.
1:28:32- Well that's, yeah, but not every time.
1:28:34But anyway, this move is them just
1:28:38"Hey, you know what? We are so powerful that you have to play ball with us. We're going
1:28:43to offer this thing now, and our partners who use this, their stuff is going to rank
1:28:49a lot higher than a random link to an arbitrary site now in the timelines." As you said, they're
1:28:54going to start turning the screws, right? They are so good at that. That's what they
1:28:58do.
1:28:59You would think they would figure it out by now, like kind of have the music labels figured
1:29:01out after the iTunes thing, like maybe don't give one company too much power, right?
1:29:05Yeah, well, ask the music labels how well they're doing right now.
1:29:07Well, but like I mean they eventually figured it out and now it's kind of like accepted wisdom in the in the digital publishing
1:29:13You know digital media like music movies or whatever that it is a huge mistake
1:29:17To put all your eggs in the basket of one technology company
1:29:20Despite the fact that all the media companies have proven they can't do the technology themselves. They've learned I think just just received wisdom now
1:29:26Even if you can't do any of this tech yourself, which you can't because you suck
1:29:30Never give one company all your stuff. Never let Apple get too big never let Amazon get too big never let you know
1:29:36like and they all know that right and maybe they know it too well and are being stubborn with things like TV where they could be
1:29:42Making progress blah blah blah, but you would think in the web
1:29:45They would also know that by now as well that like I mean, let's look at ebooks and Amazon like oh boy
1:29:50That was it was a real big mistake to give Amazon that much power in the e-book industry
1:29:53Right, and they tried to balance it with Apple and then you know that didn't quite work out the way they wanted it to right
1:29:59So I'm hoping everybody in web publishing even though they're in the same dire
1:30:02Situation of like we can't figure out how to monetize we can't reach our audience social is taking over blah blah
1:30:06I hope that someone in the meeting raises their hand and says, "This is all good and
1:30:11all, and I love these numbers and the projections and blah blah blah, but we really need to
1:30:15hedge because if we put all our eggs in the Facebook basket, they will own us and it will
1:30:20be bad."
1:30:21- See, I think you're right, they should be saying that.
1:30:25However, I don't think they have another choice.
1:30:27And that's why Facebook can do this.
1:30:28This is like, the internet is really, you know, we like to think that the internet is
1:30:32this platform that enables all this openness and everything, and it does, and it can.
1:30:36But it also enables massive consolidation of power and consolidation of attention and
1:30:43usage into these proprietary lockdown systems.
1:30:45We keep seeing it again and again with everything you use listed.
1:30:48And that's only going to continue.
1:30:50And it's very clear that when you have these centralized systems like Facebook, like Twitter,
1:30:55like Amazon, you can offer benefits, like Google, you can offer benefits that get people
1:31:02in in such massive numbers that you just get a,
1:31:05like that private company gets a tremendous amount of power
1:31:08and can basically dictate their terms
1:31:10to the rest of the world then.
1:31:12Everything, like we're saying this is really,
1:31:14potentially really bad and they shouldn't give Facebook
1:31:16all this power, but the fact is Facebook
1:31:17already has this power and if someone's not gonna play ball
1:31:20with Facebook, they're just gonna start losing
1:31:23Facebook search traffic, or Facebook social traffic
1:31:25and they're gonna be forced to play ball.
1:31:28They're gonna, their hands are gonna be forced.
1:31:30Well they've got the same game plan as the music labels after going too far in the Apple
1:31:34direction.
1:31:37Their best and their only hedge is unfortunately to try to spread a little bit of your content
1:31:42to another proprietary centralized thing.
1:31:45Like in other words Twitter with the cards and whatever.
1:31:47Like can they play Twitter vs Facebook off of each other?
1:31:51Facebook is just so massively bigger than that anyway but that's what they've got.
1:31:55The option is let's also keep talking to Twitter about their thing and whatever new social
1:31:59network thing, like let's also talk to them about like no exclusivity deals, try to hedge
1:32:05your bets the best you can. So you know Amazon's music was nothing when iTunes was dominant,
1:32:10but by being given tons of attention, by being given DRM free music before Apple was given
1:32:15it by all the music labels and everything, it helped make Amazon into perhaps not the
1:32:20competitor they all wished it was, but at least iTunes is now not the only game in town.
1:32:24Of course Spotify and all the streaming services, right, even that, the streaming services,
1:32:29I bet music labels want to spread things around with a different streaming service so they
1:32:32wouldn't like one to be dominant.
1:32:33It's just something that tends to happen.
1:32:36Amazon is massively dominant in online commerce.
1:32:38Walmart is massively dominant in the US in retail.
1:32:41Facebook is massively dominant online in social.
1:32:44It's a bummer.
1:32:45- But there's something else here though which I think is worth pointing out.
1:32:49There's a difference in the power balance between your examples that you just gave for
1:32:52the most part and this which is like if a popular kind of product is constantly being
1:32:57being searched for on Amazon and Amazon doesn't have it,
1:33:00that makes Amazon look bad.
1:33:01Amazon kinda needs that.
1:33:02With the music label negotiations,
1:33:04like there's only what, four music labels?
1:33:07You know, if a big music store launches
1:33:09and they don't have one of them, that's a big problem.
1:33:11That's gonna result in lots of people looking for stuff,
1:33:14not finding it, and that negatively affecting the chances
1:33:17that they're gonna keep using that music service
1:33:18or keep buying from that store
1:33:19or even keep bothering to search there.
1:33:21With Facebook and these publishers,
1:33:24Facebook doesn't really need any of them, like at all.
1:33:26Like this is purely for the publisher's benefit
1:33:30to be in this system.
1:33:31If the publishers, if any one publisher
1:33:34or any group of publishers decides they're not gonna do it,
1:33:36Facebook couldn't possibly care less.
1:33:38They don't need them.
1:33:39- Well they don't need them, but they want them.
1:33:40They want their place to be the gateway to this.
1:33:42They don't want, I mean, you know, share on Facebook.
1:33:45Like you can go to a website and there's share buttons
1:33:46underneath every article to share the article
1:33:48on every possible social service,
1:33:50but that's not the integration that Facebook wants.
1:33:53They want you to go to Facebook to find the article,
1:33:55not go to the website to find the article
1:33:56and hit a share button to share with people on Facebook,
1:33:58although they do want you to do that
1:33:59because they want people to be, you know,
1:34:00looking at things on Facebook.
1:34:02But it's the inversion of like, you know,
1:34:04website, what website?
1:34:05We own you.
1:34:06The only, you publish your content through our system
1:34:08on our terms to the people we say you can reach, right?
1:34:11And I guess the web, keeping the websites themselves
1:34:14are a hedge on that, but I don't know.
1:34:17Like, I don't know what the best move for them is
1:34:19because they do need to reach people.
1:34:20Like, all I can think about is how much it could be worse.
1:34:24Like, imagine if Facebook owned YouTube.
1:34:26we'd all be screwed. Like it's game over. And YouTube itself is pretty dominant, but
1:34:33then you see Twitch and you're like, well maybe Twitch is keeping YouTube honest. Does
1:34:37Google own Twitch now? I keep forgetting. Didn't Amazon buy them? I don't know. Anyway,
1:34:40consolidation is evil. Well, everything old is new again, and so I suspect that before
1:34:47too long we'll be seeing keywords on commercials, and we'll talk about that right after this
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1:38:31All right, so Verizon bought AOL, which is weird.
1:38:38Yeah.
1:38:39What's that all about?
1:38:40I don't know. Some people said it was about ad technology. I don't know.
1:38:44That seems to make sense to me, because what else could it be about?
1:38:47Dial up? I don't know.
1:38:49I mean, they do have a bunch of popular websites, and some of the spin has been like,
1:38:53"Oh, this is about content." I think what they have, like Huffington Post is TechCrunch there, too.
1:38:57theirs too. Like they have a bunch of properties like everybody's like a holding company at
1:39:01this point. But from everything I've read what the CEO did to make the company desirable
1:39:08as an acquisition is focused on how like trying to make this company a compliment for the
1:39:15things that other companies might need, you know, so they're advertising technology to
1:39:18serve you know, whatever. Boy, you need this filter a lot. Serve rich ads, video ads to
1:39:23to people targeted, you know, if someone is looking
1:39:27for that ability and the ability to reach a large number
1:39:29of people, that's what AOL has packaged themselves up into.
1:39:32And I saw all the depressing numbers of like how low AOL
1:39:35has fallen from, you know, the time when they were doing
1:39:37the Time Warner merger for 380 billion or whatever.
1:39:40Now they sold themselves for four.
1:39:43Part of it is like the name AOL.
1:39:45Like the company has always been increasingly more
1:39:47than what we think of when we think of AOL.
1:39:50But then I just think about all those people
1:39:51still charging for dial-up and I just get angry.
1:39:54Is the logo still lowercase, so it just looks like AOL?
1:39:56Yeah, and I want to be clear.
1:39:59Angry AOL, not because I think that people shouldn't have dial-up, but I'm angry at our
1:40:05situation in this country.
1:40:07If your best internet option within your budget is dial-up on AOL, we are failing as a country
1:40:14to, you know, like, I feel like at this point, broadband, affordable broadband internet access
1:40:20should be important enough that it should be subsidized, you know, maybe not subsidized,
1:40:26but like, we should, whatever we have to do to make it affordable, as affordable as having
1:40:31a telephone line is, that's what internet access should be. And if your only option
1:40:35is literal dial-up over a modem to AOL, then things have gone horribly wrong.
1:40:40Yeah, I'd say so. I don't know, Ben Thompson had a pretty good take on this that I skimmed
1:40:46very quickly before we recorded, and it seems like it is about ad technology. I don't know,
1:40:53it's just, AOL has a bunch of internet properties, like TechCrunch for example, and there was
1:41:00a time where I really hated TechCrunch, but I actually have come back around and it helps
1:41:05that our friend Matt Panzerino is there. But there's a lot of really good properties there,
1:41:10And I'm gonna be fairly sad when Verizon inevitably forces editorial opinions on all of them.
1:41:17Don't you think they'll sell them before they do that?
1:41:19I would assume that if they're not interested in content, they'll sell those things off.
1:41:22Maybe.
1:41:23I don't know.
1:41:24I mean, they probably do make money, though.
1:41:26I don't know.
1:41:27You know, I've never worked with a big publisher.
1:41:29I have no idea how, you know, in theory, they all attempt to maintain editorial independence
1:41:36from their corporate high-up owners.
1:41:38In practice, I don't know how hard that is.
1:41:40If I had to guess, I'm guessing that they can usually
1:41:45do that most of the time, but maybe sometimes
1:41:48it gets weird or hard, I don't know.
1:41:49- I don't know if Verizon is like Roger Ailes,
1:41:51I don't think they have a big ideological slant
1:41:55that they're going to impose on the Huffington Post
1:41:56and TechCrunch.
1:41:57- Yeah, probably not.
1:41:59- Notice I add the Verizon tracking cookie
1:42:00to all the sites, you know?
1:42:02Actually they already have that because it's already
1:42:03on their network, anyway.
1:42:05Verizon just wants your eyeballs and your monthly check,
1:42:10Right, and so this is just furthering their goals.
1:42:13Would it be, can we think of someone
1:42:15who we would rather have had buy AOL?
1:42:18Would we rather have AOL go bankrupt?
1:42:19Like what are the alternative scenarios
1:42:22for the future of AOL that we would like better
1:42:24than Verizon buying them?
1:42:25I mean like what I'm getting at is that it's not,
1:42:30I didn't you know, sort of cringe
1:42:32when I saw this announcement in the same way I did
1:42:34when I saw like Facebook bought Instagram, right?
1:42:36Like sometimes you see a consolidation,
1:42:38like oh no right this one it's like yeah all right I mean like could be worse
1:42:43right like Verizon could merge with Comcast like there are many more worse
1:42:47doomsday scenarios than uh than Verizon buys AOL I mean Verizon could just agree
1:42:52to just stop competing with Comcast and stop building out FiOS yeah they can
1:42:57only do that with billions and billions of speaking of subsidies with billions
1:43:00and billions of dollars from the government they need more billions now
1:43:03- Nope, they can't do it anymore.
1:43:06- Well, good talk.
1:43:06I guess, is there much else to say on AOL Verizon?
1:43:10- I don't know, basically what I had to say is that
1:43:13of all the mergers that have taken place
1:43:15between big companies, this one seems like,
1:43:18all right, whatever.
1:43:19- Yeah, is this, so, off the top of my head, I don't know.
1:43:23The AOL Time Warner thing, between that and HP Compaq,
1:43:29which was the worst merger in history?
1:43:33AOL Time Warner.
1:43:34- That was bigger than HP Compaq?
1:43:35- Yeah, because HP Compaq, these were similar
1:43:39and did similar things, and it's a consolidation
1:43:41that made some sense, especially in a market
1:43:43where Microsoft was grabbing ever larger values
1:43:46of the PC market, and the hardware vendors
1:43:48were being pushed harder and harder,
1:43:49that there's gonna be consolidation among them,
1:43:51and they both had kind of an enterprise angle.
1:43:53Like, HP Compaq makes some sense, and it only looks bad
1:43:56because the entire PC sector was contracting
1:43:58as Microsoft sucked all the oxygen out of it.
1:44:00AOL Time Warner was a fantasy of like,
1:44:02the internet and Hollywood are together and we're going to have TV shows on it. It's just
1:44:07a fantasy of some C-level executive's head, like billions of dollars and little birdies
1:44:12and stars spinning around people's heads thinking this is going to be the new Juggernaut. And
1:44:17it was just like, boy, you know, I just feel like that was a much bigger disaster.
1:44:22Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Igloo, and Squarespace,
1:44:29and we will see you next week.
1:44:30Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin
1:44:37'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
1:44:44John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him
1:44:48'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
1:44:54And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm
1:44:59And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
1:45:08So that's Kasey Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
1:45:13E-N-T, Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C
1:45:18U-S-A, Syracuse-a, it's accidental
1:45:23They didn't mean to, accidental
1:45:28♪ Tech podcast so long ♪
1:45:31- Didn't even get to talk about your audio engine.
1:45:35- We can talk about that now,
1:45:36but there's not that much to say.
1:45:37I'm working on my streaming engine.
1:45:40- What streaming engine is this?
1:45:41What number?
1:45:42What attempt number?
1:45:44- I think four?
1:45:45Every couple of days on Twitter,
1:45:48somebody asks the Overcast account,
1:45:50"When are you gonna add streaming?
1:45:52"God, finally," you know, something like that.
1:45:54And--
1:45:54- They do have a point.
1:45:56You're doing the voice for the finally thing,
1:45:57but streaming was discussed on this very program
1:46:00a fairly long time ago as an important
1:46:02upcoming feature for Overcast.
1:46:04- Yeah, my goal was to add it like last fall.
1:46:07That hasn't happened yet.
1:46:08And it's not because I haven't been working on it.
1:46:11It's because I haven't gotten it to work yet.
1:46:14I've been making progress, and I haven't,
1:46:16you know, I haven't been working on only streaming
1:46:19in Overcast for the last year or whatever.
1:46:21Like I've been doing other things as well.
1:46:24- Yeah, like walking your dog.
1:46:25- Like walking my dog, yeah, well that's testing
1:46:27overcast, no, I mean, you know, simple stuff like,
1:46:30you know, like the entire rest of the app
1:46:33that I've been working on, stuff like that.
1:46:35I have tried to write a streaming engine for overcast
1:46:40on a number of occasions, and I keep doing it badly.
1:46:45The one I've been writing over the last two weeks
1:46:48is significantly better, I've gotten significantly further
1:46:51than I've gotten with any other attempt before.
1:46:54I think I'll be able to do it,
1:46:56I think the one I'm writing now is going to be the one.
1:47:01So John Beals in the chat is asking,
1:47:03"Is there an off-the-shelf streaming solution?"
1:47:05I have looked at a couple of packages,
1:47:07I have even tried to integrate some of them
1:47:09that claim to offer this.
1:47:11None of them have worked for me.
1:47:13And some of them, they haven't worked for me
1:47:16because they have just annoying shortcomings
1:47:20that would be a problem in my app.
1:47:21Things like, "Oh, this will support streaming of everything
1:47:25except MP4 files.
1:47:27That's a bit of a problem for podcasts,
1:47:29since any AAC-encoded podcast is wrapped
1:47:31in an MP4 container.
1:47:33Or simple things like, no way to get ID3 information.
1:47:37Well, that might be a problem for me in the future,
1:47:39if I wanna parse that.
1:47:41Or like, no ability to jump around in certain formats,
1:47:45in certain cases.
1:47:46Like, there's problems and limitations
1:47:48with a lot of these other packages out there
1:47:49that if you're writing an app where you are streaming
1:47:53from a known set of sources that you know,
1:47:55like if you control the source end,
1:47:57and you can say, well, we are only going to serve
1:48:00MP3 format streams, for instance.
1:48:02And so you know what you're gonna be reading,
1:48:04and you have control over that.
1:48:06You have a lot more options then.
1:48:08First of all, if you don't need smart speed,
1:48:10you can just use AD player.
1:48:11Like that's the basic thing.
1:48:13Like for most people, you don't need to be working
1:48:16at this level, because most applications,
1:48:20A.D. player will work just fine for you.
1:48:23The only reason I need to be at this level
1:48:25is to get smart speed working.
1:48:27Now, another option, the guy who makes RSS radio,
1:48:30this is one of the only other apps
1:48:33that has silent skipping as a feature.
1:48:36I met him at NS Conference this year,
1:48:38he's a really nice guy.
1:48:39And I asked him, 'cause I know that he supports streaming
1:48:42and he has silent skipping, and I asked him how he did it.
1:48:44And he said he just doesn't have silent skipping
1:48:48and effects when it's streaming.
1:48:50And he just has two different paths in the code
1:48:53where like if he's playing a video
1:48:56or if he's playing an audio file off a stream,
1:48:59he just uses AVPlayer, and then if he's not,
1:49:01he uses his other audio engine where he can do effects.
1:49:05And I could go down that route too.
1:49:08I'm just choosing not to.
1:49:09So I could've offered streaming at the very beginning
1:49:12and just say, well, you can stream,
1:49:14but then smart speed won't work if you stream.
1:49:18I'm just choosing that I don't want that.
1:49:20Like I don't want that to be my solution.
1:49:21I want smart speed and voice boost
1:49:24and any other effects I do in the future.
1:49:26I want those all to be available
1:49:27no matter what the source of the audio is.
1:49:29Whether you're streaming it,
1:49:30whether you're playing off a local file, et cetera.
1:49:34Also with AVPlayer, you can't save the contents of a stream.
1:49:37And I don't like that.
1:49:38I think if you're gonna stream the data once,
1:49:41you should be able to write that data to the local disk
1:49:44and be able to play it offline afterwards if you want to.
1:49:47So again, a limitation with the built-in stuff,
1:49:51I could have these different modes where I say,
1:49:53well, in this mode you have these limitations,
1:49:54I'd rather not do that.
1:49:55I'd rather just have one smart, solid system
1:49:59that applies the same rules no matter where
1:50:01the data comes from and gives you the same features
1:50:03no matter where the data comes from.
1:50:05So that's why I'm doing it the hard way,
1:50:07and it's very hard, and that might not be the right answer.
1:50:10This might be a terrible idea.
1:50:11It might not be worth it,
1:50:14but this is how I'm choosing to do it.
1:50:16Don't you feel like once you kind of,
1:50:17'cause really from reading your messages,
1:50:19it seems like if any of these streaming frameworks
1:50:22gave you a place to sort of insert your own code
1:50:25into the stream where you could do your smart speed stuff,
1:50:27you'd be all set, but none of them seem to give you
1:50:30that low level access, 'cause they always just assume,
1:50:32oh, you know, we'll take care of everything for you.
1:50:34You just point us at the stream and we'll get the audio.
1:50:36It's like, no, I need to be in there.
1:50:37I need to look at the byte stream as it flows by
1:50:39and to be able to do stuff with it, right?
1:50:41So what you're essentially doing is a lot of work
1:50:44that's already done for you in other frameworks
1:50:45just so you can get that one access point.
1:50:47Is this a correct characterization or not?
1:50:49- Yeah, I mean, that's part of it.
1:50:52And even just like, just the way the frameworks work,
1:50:55the way they're structured,
1:50:57how the code does certain things.
1:50:59There's a couple of different low-level audio APIs
1:51:01that you could be using.
1:51:02I have to be working at basically the lowest level
1:51:06to do what I do.
1:51:07And so some of them don't work at a level that low,
1:51:10some of them do,
1:51:11but in a weird way that has limitations like this,
1:51:14Some of them are basically just doing what I'm doing,
1:51:16and I can just look at them and see some trick they do,
1:51:18or some weird thing.
1:51:19But for the most part,
1:51:21now that I figured out the right way to do it, I think,
1:51:26I think I'm making good progress, so I'll get there.
1:51:29- This is gonna be your new Instapaper table view,
1:51:31or grid view, where it's like, you do this thing,
1:51:33you finally come out, you've got this thing,
1:51:34finally I have a streaming engine, supports all my features,
1:51:36two iOS releases later, they add hooks to all their APIs
1:51:40so that you can do smart speed
1:51:41in any one of their streaming things.
1:51:42which is fine, like that's just,
1:51:43you gotta do what you gotta do, but I don't know,
1:51:45maybe this will never be important enough for them to do.
1:51:48Like the collection views was eventually important enough
1:51:50for them to do because tons of apps have views like that
1:51:53of arbitrary grids of items, reordering, and blah, blah,
1:51:56blah, but I'm not sure how many apps care
1:51:58about the low-level audio access that you need,
1:52:00so maybe you'll be safe in this one.
1:52:02- Yeah, and like, you know,
1:52:04AV player can support voice boost even.
1:52:07Like you can do audio effects in AV player.
1:52:10You just can't adjust the time scale of the audio.
1:52:12So you can do any effects that take in an output,
1:52:15the same number of samples.
1:52:16You can do that in Navy Player, no problem.
1:52:19Well, it's not easy, but you can do it.
1:52:21But anything that adjusts the time scale dynamically,
1:52:24you can't, and that is what Smart Speed needs to do.
1:52:27One of the questions in the chat,
1:52:30let me see, Coding Explorer asked this.
1:52:33Why is streaming in such demand?
1:52:35If you have Wi-Fi downloading an individual episode,
1:52:37it takes like 10 seconds when it's slow.
1:52:39That's a good point.
1:52:41I've gotten along this far without having streaming.
1:52:44One could argue, as I've asked myself many times
1:52:47as I keep failing to do it properly,
1:52:48one could ask, do I ever need streaming?
1:52:54And the answer is, I think I can get away
1:52:56without it forever if I need to.
1:52:58But it would be better with it for three main reasons.
1:53:03One very big use case that people always ask for
1:53:07that I can't satisfy is a lot of people
1:53:09prefer to run their clients in streaming only mode.
1:53:12And the big advantage here is that you never have to
1:53:14download a big chunk, so any, like an episode that
1:53:17comes in that you don't actually end up listening to,
1:53:20you didn't download that, so you didn't waste that data.
1:53:22And also, it takes up no disk space, basically.
1:53:25Like, you know, you'll have some space for like,
1:53:27caching and artwork and the database, stuff like that,
1:53:29but compared to when you're downloading entire episodes
1:53:32of like 50 or 100 megs, that's very little space.
1:53:35And people so often who have like these 16 gig iPhones
1:53:38that for some reason Apple is still selling,
1:53:41they can be very low on space.
1:53:42So if you can have a mode in your podcast app
1:53:45that doesn't use a lot of disk space,
1:53:46there's a lot of people who want that.
1:53:48Secondarily, no matter how fast your connection is,
1:53:52if there's an episode that you wanna listen to right now
1:53:54and it is not downloaded, to tap it
1:53:56and to have to sit there and wait for the whole thing
1:53:58to download before it can even start sucks.
1:54:01Even if it only sucks for five seconds, that still sucks.
1:54:04Many, in many cases it's gonna suck for a lot longer
1:54:07'cause if the reality is not everybody has fast wifi,
1:54:10not everybody is on wifi,
1:54:12not everyone's cell connections are that fast.
1:54:14So if you can tap and start playback soon, immediately,
1:54:19like that is better, like no question that is better.
1:54:21- Well forget about the wifi and the cell connections.
1:54:24I have fast, all of those things.
1:54:27It takes forever to download some podcast
1:54:29because the hosting is slow.
1:54:30That is my biggest complaint about streaming
1:54:32is like if I forget to download a podcast
1:54:34and I have to go to work.
1:54:36You look at it and it's like, what is this doing?
1:54:38200K per second?
1:54:40Forget it.
1:54:40I'm not going to sit here and wait 15 minutes.
1:54:42And it's not because of my connection.
1:54:44It's because the server can't feed me the bytes fast enough.
1:54:47And then I blame your background downloader
1:54:48for not downloading the background.
1:54:50Yeah.
1:54:51If I had to pick one-- I'm not big on streaming.
1:54:53Like, I like the fact that it will be able to play-- I would
1:54:55like actually a hybrid mode where
1:54:57it starts playing as soon as possible,
1:54:58but it still downloads the whole thing.
1:55:00But the feature that I mostly get annoyed about with Overcast
1:55:03is why isn't this downloading?
1:55:04I don't know why it's not downloading.
1:55:06I know you have the like start all, stop all thing.
1:55:08I few delete app it sometimes.
1:55:09I know you fought with that,
1:55:11with the background download framework and everything.
1:55:13It's still mysterious to me.
1:55:15There's no indication in the UI
1:55:16and nothing I can do about it to say
1:55:18other than sometimes pause and restart,
1:55:19pause and restart until something starts happening.
1:55:21I always want to know why are you waiting to download?
1:55:23Just download, I'm on wifi.
1:55:25- I would also like to know that.
1:55:26- Yes, I know. - Unfortunately,
1:55:28the frameworks do not give you that information.
1:55:30You just sell it, start downloading this
1:55:32and you know it started when you got the first byte.
1:55:34- Right, and like a software update running
1:55:35in the background that's ahead of you in the queue,
1:55:37you know, taking your spot in the background queue.
1:55:39It's like, yeah.
1:55:41- And Aiden Haines in the chat just mentioned
1:55:43what was gonna be my third point,
1:55:44which is, you know, let's say I wanna build a feature
1:55:46where you can view a share link natively in the app.
1:55:49If somebody says, "Check out this podcast,
1:55:51"that was so funny at this minute,"
1:55:53and that minute is an hour into the show.
1:55:56If you can open up that link in Overcast
1:55:57and start that playback at that point,
1:56:00you don't have to download the entire file before that,
1:56:02the whole first hour of the show,
1:56:04you can download a few bytes, get the header information,
1:56:06and then jump ahead with a range request,
1:56:09and then only download the part from your playhead forward.
1:56:14So that's also a very compelling use case
1:56:17that could be very useful in the future
1:56:19if I do more social features and stuff like that.
1:56:21So there are all these features, even right now,
1:56:25when a new download comes in, you get the notification.
1:56:27Right now, the only thing I can offer on that
1:56:29is a dismiss button.
1:56:31I can't wait until it's downloaded and then notified,
1:56:33but a lot of people don't like that,
1:56:34and it's not really what people want most of the time.
1:56:36They wanna know when it's out.
1:56:38So I notify when it's out.
1:56:41It would be ideal if I could have a button
1:56:42on the notification that said play
1:56:44for the people who want to play it immediately.
1:56:46And again, that's one more feature I can't do really well
1:56:49until I have streaming.
1:56:51So there's a whole bunch of these little features,
1:56:53little niceties that are all being held up
1:56:56by my lack of streaming.
1:56:58And so that's why I'm working on this.
1:57:00"Yes, I can get along forever without it,
1:57:02"but the app would be a lot better with it."
1:57:05And so that's why I'm doing it.
1:57:07That's why it's worth all this trouble.
1:57:09And I think I've gotten pretty far with this latest attempt.
1:57:13I think I'm really onto something here.
1:57:15I think this might be the one, guys.
1:57:17I might've found the one.
1:57:19- Number 42.
1:57:20You said you looked at a bunch of different packages
1:57:24in order to do this for you,
1:57:26and you said that they didn't work.
1:57:27out of curiosity, did you crib anything particularly useful
1:57:30from any of these different open source packages,
1:57:32or was that basically a waste of time?
1:57:35- I looked at some of them,
1:57:36just like how they use some of the APIs.
1:57:39- Right, right.
1:57:40- But I didn't even copy and paste any code out from them.
1:57:43Like, it was that different,
1:57:45or that unsuitable for my task.
1:57:47Like, it was more of like a general overview of like,
1:57:50oh, that's interesting, like they don't use a buffer here,
1:57:52or oh, they're using the audio file API here,
1:57:56or they're using this weird call here.
1:57:58It's that kind, it is good that I can look at them
1:58:01'cause they're open source and I can look at them
1:58:02and see the stuff, but they haven't been as useful
1:58:06as I would have hoped.
1:58:07But for the most part, I would rather that be the case.
1:58:09Honestly, I would rather write it myself if I can
1:58:11for lots of reasons.
1:58:12Part of it because I'm just that kind of arrogant programmer.
1:58:16Part of it because I want to understand what's happening.
1:58:20'Cause this is, I wrote the rest of my audio engine,
1:58:22this is a pretty critical part of it.
1:58:25And by writing my own audio engine,
1:58:27I'm able to do so much in the app,
1:58:29so many little custom things.
1:58:30Like one of the packages I was looking at,
1:58:34basically in order to use it,
1:58:35I would have to replace most of my audio engine with it.
1:58:39And I tried even just trying to integrate that,
1:58:42just trying to put that in,
1:58:43like all the different things that I have
1:58:45to try to wedge, even having access to their source code,
1:58:50just the amount of work and change and bug potential
1:58:53I was creating by trying to just match the features
1:58:57I have now using their audio engine.
1:59:01It was more work to do that than it would have been
1:59:04to just write my own, even if it takes me a year to do it.
1:59:06- Have you considered writing it in Go?
1:59:08(laughing)
1:59:10Or that's fast.
1:59:12- Oh, I wish speed was the problem, but it's not.
1:59:14(beeping)