Developing Perspective

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hello and welcome to Developing Perspective. Developing Perspective is a podcast discussing

00:00:04 ◼   ► news of note, and that was development, Apple, and the like. And this week, we're going to

00:00:08 ◼   ► take a break out of my normal 15-minute monologue, and I'm going to have a conversation. It's

00:00:13 ◼   ► not quite the interview series that I've done sort of periodically on and off. It's more

00:00:17 ◼   ► just a natural conversation that came up that I thought would be interesting to share. And

00:00:21 ◼   ► so this week, I'm going to have a special guest, Lauren Smith, my wife, sometimes known

00:00:26 ◼   ► as Mrs. Underscore, who is-- we were having a conversation

00:00:30 ◼   ► earlier today.

00:00:31 ◼   ► We were just talking about work.

00:00:33 ◼   ► And I was mentioning to her some of the-- I guess,

00:00:36 ◼   ► some of the drama, some of the back and forth

00:00:38 ◼   ► that had been going on about app store pricing,

00:00:41 ◼   ► about the nature of that, and the difficulty

00:00:45 ◼   ► and the disconnect that often seems to happen between

00:00:48 ◼   ► developers and customers, and how that frustration seems

00:00:52 ◼   ► to be manifesting itself now.

00:00:53 ◼   ► And I was talking to Lauren, the difficulty of this was interesting in talking to her

00:01:01 ◼   ► because she's somebody who's both a typical customer in the app store, she has an iPhone

00:01:05 ◼   ► and works a lot with it, as well as somebody who is aware of what it's like to run a business

00:01:12 ◼   ► the way I do.

00:01:13 ◼   ► And so without further ado, I'm going to introduce Lauren.

00:01:15 ◼   ► Lauren, say hi.

00:01:16 ◼   ► Hi, everybody.

00:01:17 ◼   ► All right.

00:01:18 ◼   ► And so we're going to start talking about this a little bit.

00:01:20 ◼   ► And so I guess at first I thought it would be interesting if you could just talk about

00:01:24 ◼   ► your reaction and the way you kind of reacted and thought when you saw what happened with

00:01:31 ◼   ► Clear, which is an app I believe you use all the time, right?

00:01:35 ◼   ► Yes.

00:01:36 ◼   ► Yeah, I love the app Clear.

00:01:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:38 ◼   ► And so recently you were aware of sort of all the things that happened where they created

00:01:42 ◼   ► a new version, released it, and just kind of walked through your reaction to that.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Yeah, it's interesting.

00:01:47 ◼   ► I first found out about this because after Dave stood in line for me to get the iPhone

00:01:55 ◼   ► 5S, I decided to start with a clean slate on my phone.

00:02:01 ◼   ► I'm a big to-do list person, I have a lot of things juggling as many people do.

00:02:07 ◼   ► One of the first apps I decided to re-download was Clear.

00:02:10 ◼   ► I went to download it and it said I needed to pay again and I was confused.

00:02:14 ◼   ► So I asked you, I said, "What's going on?"

00:02:17 ◼   ► And you said, "Oh, they released a new version."

00:02:19 ◼   ► So my very first thought was, "Oh man, what a bummer."

00:02:23 ◼   ► And then of course my second thought is knowing the business side, "Well, okay, that makes

00:02:26 ◼   ► sense.

00:02:27 ◼   ► I understand that they have to make a living just like everyone else."

00:02:30 ◼   ► But the reality is I chose not to pay the extra whatever two or three dollars it was

00:02:35 ◼   ► to download the new version.

00:02:37 ◼   ► And so instead, what I decided to do is say, "Well, maybe Apple's native app is actually

00:02:43 ◼   ► not going to be so bad in iOS 7 after all.

00:02:46 ◼   ► So I'd used Reminders when it first came out and didn't like it for a number of reasons.

00:02:52 ◼   ► It just didn't suit my needs.

00:02:54 ◼   ► And so I stopped using it and really have loved Clear ever since.

00:02:58 ◼   ► But then because they decided to charge again for the iOS 7 version, I am back to Reminders.

00:03:07 ◼   ► And it's not so bad.

00:03:08 ◼   ► So that's where I am at this point.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Sure.

00:03:11 ◼   ► And the interesting thing I think about that I find about that is it's not necessarily

00:03:15 ◼   ► that you have an objection to paying for it so much as it seems like there's this interesting

00:03:22 ◼   ► thing where by forcing you to make that decision again, you immediately sought out other alternatives.

00:03:30 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:03:31 ◼   ► And I mean, I think the reality is I didn't seek out other paid alternatives.

00:03:35 ◼   ► It wasn't that I decided I didn't like the app style or their philosophy about how to

00:03:40 ◼   ► to do a to-do list or whatever. It was just if I have to make the decision to buy it again.

00:03:48 ◼   ► I mean, I liked the old version if they had given me an easier option to just download

00:03:52 ◼   ► the old version. And I know I could go back and do that. But there's just that mental

00:03:56 ◼   ► block against going back and kind of rehashing the same thing I've already done. So yeah,

00:04:04 ◼   ► I don't know how else to explain it.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Sure.

00:04:07 ◼   ► And it's – the interesting thing there is do you think if you'd gone back to reminders

00:04:12 ◼   ► and you'd found that it just – it didn't really work at all or it was not a good experience,

00:04:17 ◼   ► that at that point you'd go back and sort of start working your way back up the tree

00:04:21 ◼   ► of like, "Oh, I wonder if there's a free option.

00:04:24 ◼   ► I wonder what the next other paid options would be."

00:04:26 ◼   ► Is that kind of where your mentality would go or did you just go right back to clear?

00:04:31 ◼   ► No.

00:04:32 ◼   ► Because in thinking about my philosophy with app purchases, I think I would go right back

00:04:38 ◼   ► to clear because I'm willing to pay, given the relatively small amount of money it is

00:04:44 ◼   ► for really any app in the App Store, I'm willing to pay that money if I feel like I really

00:04:49 ◼   ► get value from it.

00:04:51 ◼   ► I was thinking about it, some kind of irrational fear though of paying, God forbid, $2 for

00:04:56 ◼   ► something that I feel like does not meet my needs.

00:05:01 ◼   ► And so I think that's where my block comes from,

00:05:05 ◼   ► is that it's, I know that the old Clear app met my needs,

00:05:08 ◼   ► I was happy to pay that, but what if this new app

00:05:11 ◼   ► doesn't actually do things even as well?

00:05:14 ◼   ► 'Cause I know in the spirit of changing things,

00:05:17 ◼   ► sometimes developers make decisions

00:05:18 ◼   ► and they can't always make everyone happy.

00:05:20 ◼   ► And so what if I'm that person who doesn't like it anymore

00:05:22 ◼   ► and then I just paid more money for something

00:05:25 ◼   ► that is gonna not really be what I'm interested in?

00:05:28 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:05:29 ◼   ► Do you think, one of the things that often comes up when us developers are talking about

00:05:34 ◼   ► this kind of thing is we come up with a concept of trials.

00:05:39 ◼   ► Some kind of time limited thing where you would buy an app from the store, you'd have

00:05:43 ◼   ► it for some amount of time, whether that's 30 minutes, two days, a week, whatever it

00:05:50 ◼   ► is.

00:05:51 ◼   ► And then after that trial runs out, you'd have to pay, but you could try it for free

00:05:54 ◼   ► for a while.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Do you think that would change your kind of calculus as you're sitting in front of the

00:05:59 ◼   ► store? Absolutely. I love free trials. Many, many apps that I have upgraded to the paid

00:06:05 ◼   ► version have been because I downloaded the free version. It was limited in some way and

00:06:11 ◼   ► I realized I love it and I want more. And so I'm glad to pay that extra money because

00:06:17 ◼   ► I want to support the person who's making that. But there have been many apps that I've

00:06:21 ◼   ► downloaded the free version and I've said this is not suit my needs for whatever reason.

00:06:26 ◼   ► I'm so glad I didn't. Even though mentally a dollar isn't even that much, it just feels

00:06:31 ◼   ► wrong somehow to pay that money for something that I'm never going to use.

00:06:36 ◼   ► Another thing that's interesting as I was thinking about it is the difference between

00:06:40 ◼   ► an in-app purchase and a paid new version of an app similar to what Clear did. And I

00:06:47 ◼   ► think the thing as a regular consumer, the thing to me that I like about in-app purchase

00:06:52 ◼   ► that feels less wrong in some ways is that you have a basic app that you've purchased

00:06:58 ◼   ► and that has a certain set of functionality and features and if it's something that you're

00:07:02 ◼   ► happy with, you feel good about the value that you receive from that.

00:07:06 ◼   ► An in-app purchase is a feature set that's above and beyond the basics and so that as

00:07:12 ◼   ► a consumer, that feels perfectly reasonable to me to add that additional level of cost

00:07:19 ◼   ► to additional features.

00:07:20 ◼   ► In my mind, I'm not an unreasonable person as the regular normal, where I realize that

00:07:28 ◼   ► more features should cost more money or do cost more money, and so that's fine.

00:07:32 ◼   ► But when you present it as, in my mind, the same app that may have some of the same features

00:07:38 ◼   ► that I already had in the old version, then that's where it feels...

00:07:43 ◼   ► There's a check there where I'm like, "Wait a minute.

00:07:46 ◼   ► I thought I already had paid for these features."

00:07:49 ◼   ► For better or for worse, I expect my app to be bug-free for the duration of its lifetime

00:07:57 ◼   ► and my need of it.

00:07:58 ◼   ► So in some ways, I know that becomes tricky for developers.

00:08:02 ◼   ► But on the other hand, I think that the misconception that people aren't willing to pay for extra

00:08:10 ◼   ► features is actually a misconception.

00:08:13 ◼   ► It's just the presentation of how it's paid for.

00:08:16 ◼   ► Because if you present it as this is an add-on, this is an addition to the basic set of features,

00:08:24 ◼   ► then I think people are much more willing to do it.

00:08:27 ◼   ► And really, for better or for worse, that is why the free-to-play model works so well.

00:08:33 ◼   ► We don't need to get into the conversation of whether it's moral or not to extort money

00:08:37 ◼   ► from people in a psychological fashion.

00:08:40 ◼   ► But the reality is there is not the outcry from people about apps like Candy Crush or

00:08:44 ◼   ► or whatnot where it's this addictive, free-to-play business model because people feel happy to

00:08:50 ◼   ► pay that extra money because whether or not they actually are getting the value, they

00:08:55 ◼   ► feel like they're getting more value for every dollar they spend.

00:08:59 ◼   ► Whereas if you – another business model as we've been talking about, it just – it

00:09:05 ◼   ► feels like you're paying for the same thing again rather than something additional.

00:09:09 ◼   ► Sure. The interesting thing, and I know this for myself, is there's a once bitten, twice

00:09:19 ◼   ► shy kind of a thing where having a couple of bad experiences where you end up buying

00:09:25 ◼   ► something that you have buyer's remorse for can sour you on things. That disconnect, I

00:09:32 ◼   ► I think in some ways between the logical part of your mind, maybe, and the kind of emotional

00:09:39 ◼   ► side of it, where logically you know it's a dollar.

00:09:42 ◼   ► It's not a huge amount of money, but it still feels like somehow you cheated or swindled

00:09:48 ◼   ► out of that dollar.

00:09:49 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:09:50 ◼   ► And I will say the one category that is not that way for me is if a friend has recommended

00:09:57 ◼   ► it.

00:09:58 ◼   ► say not to be stereotypical, but having small children, one of the areas that I actually

00:10:03 ◼   ► am willing to spend money on apps is children's apps in a way that I wouldn't risk that money

00:10:09 ◼   ► for myself. But if I have a friend who says that her child loves a certain app, I'm willing

00:10:14 ◼   ► to buy the full version or "risk it" even if there's not a free version right away because

00:10:21 ◼   ► I know somebody I trust uses it and is pleased with the product.

00:10:25 ◼   ► So the power of a friend's recommendation is very strong.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Sure.

00:10:34 ◼   ► And is that just in terms of so that it eliminates the risk to you?

00:10:41 ◼   ► Or is it just on the strength of like the – because it's recommended, you know it's

00:10:46 ◼   ► going to be good?

00:10:47 ◼   ► I mean, I would say some of both.

00:10:49 ◼   ► It kind of seems like the same thing to me where there's not risk because there's

00:10:55 ◼   ► someone I trust says it's good, and so I feel like there's a certain amount of value to

00:10:59 ◼   ► that.

00:11:02 ◼   ► I think that there's a maze of apps in the App Store in any category.

00:11:08 ◼   ► I would say I think most people would agree that there's a lot of junk apps in the store

00:11:12 ◼   ► as well as some really good ones.

00:11:14 ◼   ► It's hard to find those gems even as we know there's the black box of how Apple chooses

00:11:20 ◼   ► which ones to feature.

00:11:21 ◼   ► But other than that, there's really no way to know what your $3 is really going to buy

00:11:26 ◼   ► you if it's going to be really worth it or not.

00:11:29 ◼   ► And so I think that's another reason is knowing what friends use helps with that.

00:11:34 ◼   ► I do have some friends though that just don't buy apps.

00:11:39 ◼   ► They download a lot of apps.

00:11:40 ◼   ► They use their phones for apps.

00:11:41 ◼   ► But if it's not free, they're not interested.

00:11:44 ◼   ► And so I think that's a different perspective as well.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Even though it's not a money thing necessarily, I think it's more of a philosophy on their

00:11:51 ◼   ► part. Sure. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. That was actually going to be my

00:11:55 ◼   ► next question. In terms of, do you think, what do you think is, like, just in your

00:12:00 ◼   ► normal day-to-day, your interactions with people, people who have

00:12:04 ◼   ► smartphones or iPhones, what do you think is sort of the prevailing philosophy that

00:12:10 ◼   ► people seem to have if you have kind of have any insight into that from just

00:12:14 ◼   ► like your just day-to-day interactions with them or things the way that they

00:12:17 ◼   ► interact with the App Store and the way they view it.

00:12:20 ◼   ► Well, it's interesting.

00:12:21 ◼   ► I mean, I think that a lot of people don't realize that the App Store is separate from

00:12:26 ◼   ► Apple in terms of the fact that third-party developers can submit and sell apps in the

00:12:31 ◼   ► App Store independent from being Apple employees.

00:12:34 ◼   ► When I talk about what you do, a lot of my friends or family or whatever will say, "Oh,

00:12:38 ◼   ► does that mean he works for Apple?"

00:12:41 ◼   ► Which is just a very different perspective obviously than someone who is on the inside

00:12:46 ◼   ► and knows how all these things work.

00:12:48 ◼   ► So I think that's the first thing, is that people don't really realize that these are--

00:12:53 ◼   ► I mean, sometimes the apps are made by big shops, but a lot of these are indie apps who--

00:12:58 ◼   ► a small team of developers, or in your case, a one developer who's trying to make a living.

00:13:03 ◼   ► It feels much more like an amorphous entity to them without a name or a face.

00:13:09 ◼   ► And so I think because part of that, they have very high expectations and expect very

00:13:13 ◼   ► low cost.

00:13:14 ◼   ► So they don't understand the necessity for repeat revenue from a single customer in order

00:13:22 ◼   ► to have a sustainable business.

00:13:25 ◼   ► So I think that's definitely something that is important to think about in terms of interaction.

00:13:31 ◼   ► Another thing that's really interesting is that Apple has a whole suite of really very

00:13:37 ◼   ► complicated, high quality apps that come for free with the purchase of your phone and regularly

00:13:45 ◼   ► get updated through OS updates.

00:13:48 ◼   ► And so I think that that's another thing that the average person is primed by Apple to expect,

00:13:54 ◼   ► "Hey, I have amazing apps and they are regularly updated, they fix bugs, they do all these

00:14:01 ◼   ► cool new features and I never have to pay anything for them."

00:14:05 ◼   ► And maybe the average person doesn't realize that they're indirectly paying with all the

00:14:08 ◼   ► other ways that they support Apple.

00:14:10 ◼   ► But I think specifically thinking about the apps in the App Store and that are native

00:14:15 ◼   ► on the phone, it's huge that you are primed to not expect to pay additional money for

00:14:26 ◼   ► additional features in a way that people are primed to expect to pay when they're looking

00:14:32 ◼   ► app software, even for their Mac or PC or other devices.

00:14:36 ◼   ► The phone specifically, I think people expect more and higher quality for free.

00:14:41 ◼   ► And that's also been compounded, I think, by the recent announcement that their Office

00:14:45 ◼   ► Suite pages and all of those are going to be available now for free.

00:14:50 ◼   ► And I'm sure Apple had a host of reasons for doing this.

00:14:55 ◼   ► But I think the reality is that that's even going to exacerbate the problem even more,

00:15:00 ◼   ► that the average person, not only do they not differentiate

00:15:05 ◼   ► between third party developers and Apple,

00:15:07 ◼   ► but now they see these amazing apps that are free

00:15:10 ◼   ► and expect others to be either free

00:15:15 ◼   ► or at least no paid upgrades as you go.

00:15:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I think it's certainly a difficult thing

00:15:22 ◼   ► and I know software development,

00:15:25 ◼   ► it's been especially difficult in this way

00:15:28 ◼   ► that the output has a very limited relationship necessarily to the input that went into it.

00:15:38 ◼   ► It's not the kind of thing where you look at...

00:15:41 ◼   ► If you look at a brick layer laying bricks and you see the wall getting higher and higher,

00:15:46 ◼   ► you kind of have a sense of that was a lot of work going into that.

00:15:48 ◼   ► Whereas I think in software, because you're seeing such a thin layer on the front of an

00:15:53 ◼   ► app that you actually interact with, that you have no sense of...

00:15:57 ◼   ► I imagine even something like, if you think of the concept of something like sync and

00:16:01 ◼   ► synchronizing data and all that kind of thing, I imagine most people just think it just works.

00:16:08 ◼   ► Is that accurate?

00:16:09 ◼   ► Are those types of things, like a lot of these kind of features that are actually under the

00:16:11 ◼   ► hood really difficult and expensive to maintain or just sort of, "Oh yeah, that's just something

00:16:17 ◼   ► that you do."

00:16:18 ◼   ► Oh, sure.

00:16:19 ◼   ► I mean, most people, I would say, probably don't even realize what the cloud is or how

00:16:22 ◼   ► it works or not iCloud, even just syncing in general.

00:16:27 ◼   ► It just magically happens.

00:16:28 ◼   ► And I think, too, there's this expectation.

00:16:32 ◼   ► It's a difference in perspective of if it just works, they don't really appreciate how

00:16:36 ◼   ► complicated that is.

00:16:37 ◼   ► But if something breaks, no matter how small, it's very offensive.

00:16:43 ◼   ► And so I think that's the other side of it is the bug fixes seem to be sort of emergency,

00:16:49 ◼   ► immediate, "You must put out my fire," even when they don't realize the larger scope of

00:16:54 ◼   ► of what you're trying to do and all of the other competing priorities.

00:17:00 ◼   ► And then I think just to wrap up, I thought it would be interesting, do you have any thoughts

00:17:04 ◼   ► or things that you would think would improve the situation in terms of developers?

00:17:11 ◼   ► Is it a communication challenge?

00:17:14 ◼   ► Is it just an education thing that if Apple spent a lot of time doing commercials, trying

00:17:21 ◼   ► to create that face to developers and what's going on there.

00:17:25 ◼   ► That would help.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Is it a structural thing or is it just an inevitable thing?

00:17:29 ◼   ► Where do you think this kind of could be going forward?

00:17:32 ◼   ► - I really don't think that Apple has probably any interest

00:17:37 ◼   ► or desire to make the third-party developer experience

00:17:40 ◼   ► with their customers any better.

00:17:41 ◼   ► I mean, it doesn't hurt them.

00:17:43 ◼   ► Customers still buy apps.

00:17:44 ◼   ► I think it's really the onus is on the individual developer

00:17:48 ◼   ► to try and make their customer base understand

00:17:50 ◼   ► they're coming from and the complexities involved.

00:17:52 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:17:55 ◼   ► It's very hard to communicate with your customers because you don't want to spam them.

00:18:00 ◼   ► Many people are annoyed even in a new version of an app with a pop-up comes where you're

00:18:05 ◼   ► explaining something.

00:18:06 ◼   ► Most people won't even read it.

00:18:08 ◼   ► But I think that there is, at least in our own business, I have seen interacting with

00:18:14 ◼   ► the customers to some degree on support.

00:18:15 ◼   ► I have seen that there's a much more stronger level of understanding and forgiveness if

00:18:23 ◼   ► they see a face and a name and a person behind this amorphous product.

00:18:28 ◼   ► I think interacting with one of our apps is basically the same to the average person as

00:18:33 ◼   ► interacting with Microsoft Word or one of Apple's native apps or something like that,

00:18:38 ◼   ► where it's like they assume that this giant company with these large number of faceless

00:18:43 ◼   ► People slash bots are creating something that should work perfectly every time.

00:18:47 ◼   ► And so when something, especially if something doesn't work or you're trying to make some

00:18:51 ◼   ► type of change that people may be surprised by or uncomfortable with or just need to get

00:18:58 ◼   ► used to, even if it's a better change, I think communication really is key to that.

00:19:02 ◼   ► And so being as respectful and personal as you can with customer support, I think is

00:19:09 ◼   ► really your strongest touch point with your average user and those users will tell their

00:19:14 ◼   ► friends if they feel like they were treated like an individual and you cared about their

00:19:20 ◼   ► concerns.

00:19:24 ◼   ► Even knowing what I do about the business of apps, I have emailed other developers for

00:19:31 ◼   ► compliments as well as concerns and I very rarely even get a response saying, "Thanks

00:19:37 ◼   ► your feedback, which leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

00:19:40 ◼   ► I know it's annoying.

00:19:42 ◼   ► I know it's time consuming, but it really does make a huge difference.

00:19:45 ◼   ► And even for those folks who did write back saying, "Thank you.

00:19:48 ◼   ► I'm thinking about that," or, "Maybe I'll add that feature in the future," or whatever,

00:19:52 ◼   ► even if, "Hey, my letterpress feature that I suggested to Lauren still isn't in the store,

00:19:58 ◼   ► but you know what?

00:19:59 ◼   ► Maybe someday it will be."

00:20:00 ◼   ► And he wrote me back and said, "Thanks.

00:20:02 ◼   ► I've thought about adding that feature myself, so it's on the list."

00:20:05 ◼   ► And that makes me feel really good about using his apps.

00:20:08 ◼   ► And if he released something new that cost additional money, even if it was the same

00:20:14 ◼   ► basic concept as Letterpress, I probably would buy it just because I feel better about that

00:20:21 ◼   ► experience with the developer.

00:20:22 ◼   ► Great.

00:20:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:20:24 ◼   ► I mean, I think definitely there's a -- it's that difference of in a store as large as

00:20:29 ◼   ► the App Store, which I think is up to about almost a million apps now.

00:20:33 ◼   ► It's the nature of what's happening is still the same.

00:20:38 ◼   ► If you want to have a relationship with a customer, you need to find whatever way possible.

00:20:43 ◼   ► There's a lot of difficulties and hurdles in the app store to doing this.

00:20:47 ◼   ► Their relationship is primarily with Apple and we're on the side.

00:20:50 ◼   ► But when we have opportunities to interact with customers, to try as best we can to humanize

00:20:55 ◼   ► that and make it into a personal thing.

00:20:58 ◼   ► I know I've had the same thing, doing support, where you have this funny response where the

00:21:03 ◼   ► first response I get from somebody is very negative and very just sort of

00:21:07 ◼   ► letting off steam and you kind of respond back and it's like oh I'm so

00:21:11 ◼   ► sorry you know here's what I'm doing to fix it here's a workaround for now you

00:21:15 ◼   ► know I'll let you know if I have any updates and then you get a response back

00:21:18 ◼   ► from that it's like oh I'm so sorry and they're embarrassed because they were

00:21:22 ◼   ► yeah it's like they were they thought they were talking to a bot and they

00:21:25 ◼   ► found that they're actually talking to a person and I think that probably has a

00:21:28 ◼   ► big big impact on them because I mean at the end of the day we're all good you

00:21:30 ◼   ► It's like you kind of hope we're all kind of good people trying to think the best of each other.

00:21:34 ◼   ► So, anyway.

00:21:37 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:21:38 ◼   ► So, I think that's a good place to stop.

00:21:40 ◼   ► I really want to thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

00:21:43 ◼   ► I know it's a bit outside of the norm, but I think it's especially helpful for myself and fellow developers to hear from,

00:21:53 ◼   ► I guess, I think you're aware of this, that says someone who we sort of,

00:21:58 ◼   ► I guess we always refer to it as normals, right?

00:22:02 ◼   ► I think you listened to some of the developer podcasts, right?

00:22:05 ◼   ► So we talk about, it's like, "Oh, it's like there's the us and then there's the normals."

00:22:09 ◼   ► And it's good, I think, to hear from someone who's more of a normal.

00:22:12 ◼   ► So we're not just making assumptions.

00:22:14 ◼   ► They're actually basing some of our thinking on actual real-life data and thoughts.

00:22:22 ◼   ► So I really appreciate you taking the time.

00:22:24 ◼   ► Sure.

00:22:25 ◼   ► I'm happy to present the layman perspective.

00:22:26 ◼   ► Sounds good.

00:22:27 ◼   ► All right.

00:22:28 ◼   ► Thanks.

00:22:29 ◼   ► >> All right. Bye.