0:00:00Hello and welcome to Developing Perspective. Developing Perspective is a podcast discussing
0:00:04news of note, and that was development, Apple, and the like. And this week, we're going to
0:00:08take a break out of my normal 15-minute monologue, and I'm going to have a conversation. It's
0:00:13not quite the interview series that I've done sort of periodically on and off. It's more
0:00:17just a natural conversation that came up that I thought would be interesting to share. And
0:00:21so this week, I'm going to have a special guest, Lauren Smith, my wife, sometimes known
0:00:26as Mrs. Underscore, who is-- we were having a conversation
0:00:30earlier today.
0:00:31We were just talking about work.
0:00:33And I was mentioning to her some of the-- I guess,
0:00:36some of the drama, some of the back and forth
0:00:38that had been going on about app store pricing,
0:00:41about the nature of that, and the difficulty
0:00:45and the disconnect that often seems to happen between
0:00:48developers and customers, and how that frustration seems
0:00:52to be manifesting itself now.
0:00:53And I was talking to Lauren, the difficulty of this was interesting in talking to her
0:01:01because she's somebody who's both a typical customer in the app store, she has an iPhone
0:01:05and works a lot with it, as well as somebody who is aware of what it's like to run a business
0:01:12the way I do.
0:01:13And so without further ado, I'm going to introduce Lauren.
0:01:15Lauren, say hi.
0:01:16Hi, everybody.
0:01:17All right.
0:01:18And so we're going to start talking about this a little bit.
0:01:20And so I guess at first I thought it would be interesting if you could just talk about
0:01:24your reaction and the way you kind of reacted and thought when you saw what happened with
0:01:31Clear, which is an app I believe you use all the time, right?
0:01:35Yes.
0:01:36Yeah, I love the app Clear.
0:01:37Yeah.
0:01:38And so recently you were aware of sort of all the things that happened where they created
0:01:42a new version, released it, and just kind of walked through your reaction to that.
0:01:46Yeah, it's interesting.
0:01:47I first found out about this because after Dave stood in line for me to get the iPhone
0:01:555S, I decided to start with a clean slate on my phone.
0:02:01I'm a big to-do list person, I have a lot of things juggling as many people do.
0:02:07One of the first apps I decided to re-download was Clear.
0:02:10I went to download it and it said I needed to pay again and I was confused.
0:02:14So I asked you, I said, "What's going on?"
0:02:17And you said, "Oh, they released a new version."
0:02:19So my very first thought was, "Oh man, what a bummer."
0:02:23And then of course my second thought is knowing the business side, "Well, okay, that makes
0:02:26sense.
0:02:27I understand that they have to make a living just like everyone else."
0:02:30But the reality is I chose not to pay the extra whatever two or three dollars it was
0:02:35to download the new version.
0:02:37And so instead, what I decided to do is say, "Well, maybe Apple's native app is actually
0:02:43not going to be so bad in iOS 7 after all.
0:02:46So I'd used Reminders when it first came out and didn't like it for a number of reasons.
0:02:52It just didn't suit my needs.
0:02:54And so I stopped using it and really have loved Clear ever since.
0:02:58But then because they decided to charge again for the iOS 7 version, I am back to Reminders.
0:03:07And it's not so bad.
0:03:08So that's where I am at this point.
0:03:10Sure.
0:03:11And the interesting thing I think about that I find about that is it's not necessarily
0:03:15that you have an objection to paying for it so much as it seems like there's this interesting
0:03:22thing where by forcing you to make that decision again, you immediately sought out other alternatives.
0:03:30Exactly.
0:03:31And I mean, I think the reality is I didn't seek out other paid alternatives.
0:03:35It wasn't that I decided I didn't like the app style or their philosophy about how to
0:03:40to do a to-do list or whatever. It was just if I have to make the decision to buy it again.
0:03:48I mean, I liked the old version if they had given me an easier option to just download
0:03:52the old version. And I know I could go back and do that. But there's just that mental
0:03:56block against going back and kind of rehashing the same thing I've already done. So yeah,
0:04:04I don't know how else to explain it.
0:04:06Sure.
0:04:07And it's – the interesting thing there is do you think if you'd gone back to reminders
0:04:12and you'd found that it just – it didn't really work at all or it was not a good experience,
0:04:17that at that point you'd go back and sort of start working your way back up the tree
0:04:21of like, "Oh, I wonder if there's a free option.
0:04:24I wonder what the next other paid options would be."
0:04:26Is that kind of where your mentality would go or did you just go right back to clear?
0:04:31No.
0:04:32Because in thinking about my philosophy with app purchases, I think I would go right back
0:04:38to clear because I'm willing to pay, given the relatively small amount of money it is
0:04:44for really any app in the App Store, I'm willing to pay that money if I feel like I really
0:04:49get value from it.
0:04:51I was thinking about it, some kind of irrational fear though of paying, God forbid, $2 for
0:04:56something that I feel like does not meet my needs.
0:05:01And so I think that's where my block comes from,
0:05:05is that it's, I know that the old Clear app met my needs,
0:05:08I was happy to pay that, but what if this new app
0:05:11doesn't actually do things even as well?
0:05:14'Cause I know in the spirit of changing things,
0:05:17sometimes developers make decisions
0:05:18and they can't always make everyone happy.
0:05:20And so what if I'm that person who doesn't like it anymore
0:05:22and then I just paid more money for something
0:05:25that is gonna not really be what I'm interested in?
0:05:28- Sure.
0:05:29Do you think, one of the things that often comes up when us developers are talking about
0:05:34this kind of thing is we come up with a concept of trials.
0:05:39Some kind of time limited thing where you would buy an app from the store, you'd have
0:05:43it for some amount of time, whether that's 30 minutes, two days, a week, whatever it
0:05:50is.
0:05:51And then after that trial runs out, you'd have to pay, but you could try it for free
0:05:54for a while.
0:05:55Do you think that would change your kind of calculus as you're sitting in front of the
0:05:59store? Absolutely. I love free trials. Many, many apps that I have upgraded to the paid
0:06:05version have been because I downloaded the free version. It was limited in some way and
0:06:11I realized I love it and I want more. And so I'm glad to pay that extra money because
0:06:17I want to support the person who's making that. But there have been many apps that I've
0:06:21downloaded the free version and I've said this is not suit my needs for whatever reason.
0:06:26I'm so glad I didn't. Even though mentally a dollar isn't even that much, it just feels
0:06:31wrong somehow to pay that money for something that I'm never going to use.
0:06:36Another thing that's interesting as I was thinking about it is the difference between
0:06:40an in-app purchase and a paid new version of an app similar to what Clear did. And I
0:06:47think the thing as a regular consumer, the thing to me that I like about in-app purchase
0:06:52that feels less wrong in some ways is that you have a basic app that you've purchased
0:06:58and that has a certain set of functionality and features and if it's something that you're
0:07:02happy with, you feel good about the value that you receive from that.
0:07:06An in-app purchase is a feature set that's above and beyond the basics and so that as
0:07:12a consumer, that feels perfectly reasonable to me to add that additional level of cost
0:07:19to additional features.
0:07:20In my mind, I'm not an unreasonable person as the regular normal, where I realize that
0:07:28more features should cost more money or do cost more money, and so that's fine.
0:07:32But when you present it as, in my mind, the same app that may have some of the same features
0:07:38that I already had in the old version, then that's where it feels...
0:07:43There's a check there where I'm like, "Wait a minute.
0:07:46I thought I already had paid for these features."
0:07:49For better or for worse, I expect my app to be bug-free for the duration of its lifetime
0:07:57and my need of it.
0:07:58So in some ways, I know that becomes tricky for developers.
0:08:02But on the other hand, I think that the misconception that people aren't willing to pay for extra
0:08:10features is actually a misconception.
0:08:13It's just the presentation of how it's paid for.
0:08:16Because if you present it as this is an add-on, this is an addition to the basic set of features,
0:08:24then I think people are much more willing to do it.
0:08:27And really, for better or for worse, that is why the free-to-play model works so well.
0:08:33We don't need to get into the conversation of whether it's moral or not to extort money
0:08:37from people in a psychological fashion.
0:08:40But the reality is there is not the outcry from people about apps like Candy Crush or
0:08:44or whatnot where it's this addictive, free-to-play business model because people feel happy to
0:08:50pay that extra money because whether or not they actually are getting the value, they
0:08:55feel like they're getting more value for every dollar they spend.
0:08:59Whereas if you – another business model as we've been talking about, it just – it
0:09:05feels like you're paying for the same thing again rather than something additional.
0:09:09Sure. The interesting thing, and I know this for myself, is there's a once bitten, twice
0:09:19shy kind of a thing where having a couple of bad experiences where you end up buying
0:09:25something that you have buyer's remorse for can sour you on things. That disconnect, I
0:09:32I think in some ways between the logical part of your mind, maybe, and the kind of emotional
0:09:39side of it, where logically you know it's a dollar.
0:09:42It's not a huge amount of money, but it still feels like somehow you cheated or swindled
0:09:48out of that dollar.
0:09:49Exactly.
0:09:50And I will say the one category that is not that way for me is if a friend has recommended
0:09:57it.
0:09:58say not to be stereotypical, but having small children, one of the areas that I actually
0:10:03am willing to spend money on apps is children's apps in a way that I wouldn't risk that money
0:10:09for myself. But if I have a friend who says that her child loves a certain app, I'm willing
0:10:14to buy the full version or "risk it" even if there's not a free version right away because
0:10:21I know somebody I trust uses it and is pleased with the product.
0:10:25So the power of a friend's recommendation is very strong.
0:10:33Sure.
0:10:34And is that just in terms of so that it eliminates the risk to you?
0:10:41Or is it just on the strength of like the – because it's recommended, you know it's
0:10:46going to be good?
0:10:47I mean, I would say some of both.
0:10:49It kind of seems like the same thing to me where there's not risk because there's
0:10:55someone I trust says it's good, and so I feel like there's a certain amount of value to
0:10:59that.
0:11:02I think that there's a maze of apps in the App Store in any category.
0:11:08I would say I think most people would agree that there's a lot of junk apps in the store
0:11:12as well as some really good ones.
0:11:14It's hard to find those gems even as we know there's the black box of how Apple chooses
0:11:20which ones to feature.
0:11:21But other than that, there's really no way to know what your $3 is really going to buy
0:11:26you if it's going to be really worth it or not.
0:11:29And so I think that's another reason is knowing what friends use helps with that.
0:11:34I do have some friends though that just don't buy apps.
0:11:39They download a lot of apps.
0:11:40They use their phones for apps.
0:11:41But if it's not free, they're not interested.
0:11:44And so I think that's a different perspective as well.
0:11:48Even though it's not a money thing necessarily, I think it's more of a philosophy on their
0:11:51part. Sure. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. That was actually going to be my
0:11:55next question. In terms of, do you think, what do you think is, like, just in your
0:12:00normal day-to-day, your interactions with people, people who have
0:12:04smartphones or iPhones, what do you think is sort of the prevailing philosophy that
0:12:10people seem to have if you have kind of have any insight into that from just
0:12:14like your just day-to-day interactions with them or things the way that they
0:12:17interact with the App Store and the way they view it.
0:12:20Well, it's interesting.
0:12:21I mean, I think that a lot of people don't realize that the App Store is separate from
0:12:26Apple in terms of the fact that third-party developers can submit and sell apps in the
0:12:31App Store independent from being Apple employees.
0:12:34When I talk about what you do, a lot of my friends or family or whatever will say, "Oh,
0:12:38does that mean he works for Apple?"
0:12:41Which is just a very different perspective obviously than someone who is on the inside
0:12:46and knows how all these things work.
0:12:48So I think that's the first thing, is that people don't really realize that these are--
0:12:53I mean, sometimes the apps are made by big shops, but a lot of these are indie apps who--
0:12:58a small team of developers, or in your case, a one developer who's trying to make a living.
0:13:03It feels much more like an amorphous entity to them without a name or a face.
0:13:09And so I think because part of that, they have very high expectations and expect very
0:13:13low cost.
0:13:14So they don't understand the necessity for repeat revenue from a single customer in order
0:13:22to have a sustainable business.
0:13:25So I think that's definitely something that is important to think about in terms of interaction.
0:13:31Another thing that's really interesting is that Apple has a whole suite of really very
0:13:37complicated, high quality apps that come for free with the purchase of your phone and regularly
0:13:45get updated through OS updates.
0:13:48And so I think that that's another thing that the average person is primed by Apple to expect,
0:13:54"Hey, I have amazing apps and they are regularly updated, they fix bugs, they do all these
0:14:01cool new features and I never have to pay anything for them."
0:14:05And maybe the average person doesn't realize that they're indirectly paying with all the
0:14:08other ways that they support Apple.
0:14:10But I think specifically thinking about the apps in the App Store and that are native
0:14:15on the phone, it's huge that you are primed to not expect to pay additional money for
0:14:26additional features in a way that people are primed to expect to pay when they're looking
0:14:32app software, even for their Mac or PC or other devices.
0:14:36The phone specifically, I think people expect more and higher quality for free.
0:14:41And that's also been compounded, I think, by the recent announcement that their Office
0:14:45Suite pages and all of those are going to be available now for free.
0:14:50And I'm sure Apple had a host of reasons for doing this.
0:14:55But I think the reality is that that's even going to exacerbate the problem even more,
0:15:00that the average person, not only do they not differentiate
0:15:05between third party developers and Apple,
0:15:07but now they see these amazing apps that are free
0:15:10and expect others to be either free
0:15:15or at least no paid upgrades as you go.
0:15:19- Yeah, I mean, I think it's certainly a difficult thing
0:15:22and I know software development,
0:15:25it's been especially difficult in this way
0:15:28that the output has a very limited relationship necessarily to the input that went into it.
0:15:38It's not the kind of thing where you look at...
0:15:41If you look at a brick layer laying bricks and you see the wall getting higher and higher,
0:15:46you kind of have a sense of that was a lot of work going into that.
0:15:48Whereas I think in software, because you're seeing such a thin layer on the front of an
0:15:53app that you actually interact with, that you have no sense of...
0:15:57I imagine even something like, if you think of the concept of something like sync and
0:16:01synchronizing data and all that kind of thing, I imagine most people just think it just works.
0:16:08Is that accurate?
0:16:09Are those types of things, like a lot of these kind of features that are actually under the
0:16:11hood really difficult and expensive to maintain or just sort of, "Oh yeah, that's just something
0:16:17that you do."
0:16:18Oh, sure.
0:16:19I mean, most people, I would say, probably don't even realize what the cloud is or how
0:16:22it works or not iCloud, even just syncing in general.
0:16:27It just magically happens.
0:16:28And I think, too, there's this expectation.
0:16:32It's a difference in perspective of if it just works, they don't really appreciate how
0:16:36complicated that is.
0:16:37But if something breaks, no matter how small, it's very offensive.
0:16:43And so I think that's the other side of it is the bug fixes seem to be sort of emergency,
0:16:49immediate, "You must put out my fire," even when they don't realize the larger scope of
0:16:54of what you're trying to do and all of the other competing priorities.
0:17:00And then I think just to wrap up, I thought it would be interesting, do you have any thoughts
0:17:04or things that you would think would improve the situation in terms of developers?
0:17:11Is it a communication challenge?
0:17:14Is it just an education thing that if Apple spent a lot of time doing commercials, trying
0:17:21to create that face to developers and what's going on there.
0:17:25That would help.
0:17:26Is it a structural thing or is it just an inevitable thing?
0:17:29Where do you think this kind of could be going forward?
0:17:32- I really don't think that Apple has probably any interest
0:17:37or desire to make the third-party developer experience
0:17:40with their customers any better.
0:17:41I mean, it doesn't hurt them.
0:17:43Customers still buy apps.
0:17:44I think it's really the onus is on the individual developer
0:17:48to try and make their customer base understand
0:17:50they're coming from and the complexities involved.
0:17:52I don't know.
0:17:55It's very hard to communicate with your customers because you don't want to spam them.
0:18:00Many people are annoyed even in a new version of an app with a pop-up comes where you're
0:18:05explaining something.
0:18:06Most people won't even read it.
0:18:08But I think that there is, at least in our own business, I have seen interacting with
0:18:14the customers to some degree on support.
0:18:15I have seen that there's a much more stronger level of understanding and forgiveness if
0:18:23they see a face and a name and a person behind this amorphous product.
0:18:28I think interacting with one of our apps is basically the same to the average person as
0:18:33interacting with Microsoft Word or one of Apple's native apps or something like that,
0:18:38where it's like they assume that this giant company with these large number of faceless
0:18:43People slash bots are creating something that should work perfectly every time.
0:18:47And so when something, especially if something doesn't work or you're trying to make some
0:18:51type of change that people may be surprised by or uncomfortable with or just need to get
0:18:58used to, even if it's a better change, I think communication really is key to that.
0:19:02And so being as respectful and personal as you can with customer support, I think is
0:19:09really your strongest touch point with your average user and those users will tell their
0:19:14friends if they feel like they were treated like an individual and you cared about their
0:19:20concerns.
0:19:24Even knowing what I do about the business of apps, I have emailed other developers for
0:19:31compliments as well as concerns and I very rarely even get a response saying, "Thanks
0:19:37your feedback, which leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
0:19:40I know it's annoying.
0:19:42I know it's time consuming, but it really does make a huge difference.
0:19:45And even for those folks who did write back saying, "Thank you.
0:19:48I'm thinking about that," or, "Maybe I'll add that feature in the future," or whatever,
0:19:52even if, "Hey, my letterpress feature that I suggested to Lauren still isn't in the store,
0:19:58but you know what?
0:19:59Maybe someday it will be."
0:20:00And he wrote me back and said, "Thanks.
0:20:02I've thought about adding that feature myself, so it's on the list."
0:20:05And that makes me feel really good about using his apps.
0:20:08And if he released something new that cost additional money, even if it was the same
0:20:14basic concept as Letterpress, I probably would buy it just because I feel better about that
0:20:21experience with the developer.
0:20:22Great.
0:20:23Yeah.
0:20:24I mean, I think definitely there's a -- it's that difference of in a store as large as
0:20:29the App Store, which I think is up to about almost a million apps now.
0:20:33It's the nature of what's happening is still the same.
0:20:38If you want to have a relationship with a customer, you need to find whatever way possible.
0:20:43There's a lot of difficulties and hurdles in the app store to doing this.
0:20:47Their relationship is primarily with Apple and we're on the side.
0:20:50But when we have opportunities to interact with customers, to try as best we can to humanize
0:20:55that and make it into a personal thing.
0:20:58I know I've had the same thing, doing support, where you have this funny response where the
0:21:03first response I get from somebody is very negative and very just sort of
0:21:07letting off steam and you kind of respond back and it's like oh I'm so
0:21:11sorry you know here's what I'm doing to fix it here's a workaround for now you
0:21:15know I'll let you know if I have any updates and then you get a response back
0:21:18from that it's like oh I'm so sorry and they're embarrassed because they were
0:21:22yeah it's like they were they thought they were talking to a bot and they
0:21:25found that they're actually talking to a person and I think that probably has a
0:21:28big big impact on them because I mean at the end of the day we're all good you
0:21:30It's like you kind of hope we're all kind of good people trying to think the best of each other.
0:21:34So, anyway.
0:21:37Absolutely.
0:21:38So, I think that's a good place to stop.
0:21:40I really want to thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
0:21:43I know it's a bit outside of the norm, but I think it's especially helpful for myself and fellow developers to hear from,
0:21:53I guess, I think you're aware of this, that says someone who we sort of,
0:21:58I guess we always refer to it as normals, right?
0:22:02I think you listened to some of the developer podcasts, right?
0:22:05So we talk about, it's like, "Oh, it's like there's the us and then there's the normals."
0:22:09And it's good, I think, to hear from someone who's more of a normal.
0:22:12So we're not just making assumptions.
0:22:14They're actually basing some of our thinking on actual real-life data and thoughts.
0:22:22So I really appreciate you taking the time.
0:22:24Sure.
0:22:25I'm happy to present the layman perspective.
0:22:26Sounds good.
0:22:27All right.
0:22:28Thanks.
0:22:29>> All right. Bye.