0:00:00Hello, and welcome to Developing Perspective, developing perspective is a podcast where
0:00:05we discuss news of note and iOS Apple and the like. Today I'm delighted to be joined
0:00:10by Sean Blanc of SeanBlanc.net. And we're going to be taking a break from the usual
0:00:16topic where it's just me talking and to try and expand on a topic that I think is relevant
0:00:20to a lot of iOS developers to talk about your interactions with what you would call generally
0:00:27the press, people who write or discuss the things we make,
0:00:31and to make sure that we're interacting with them in a way
0:00:33that is best for both of us.
0:00:35And so, as I said, I'm pleased to be joined by Sean.
0:00:38If you want to say hi, Sean.
0:00:40- Hi.
0:00:41- And for anybody who doesn't read your site,
0:00:44you want to give a little quick overview
0:00:50of kind of what it is you do and what you write about?
0:00:53- Yeah, I'm a full-time blogger.
0:00:54I write at seanblanc.net and write a whole bunch about tech and design stuff, iPhone,
0:01:00you know.
0:01:01I write about the kind of stuff that you guys, all the developers who listen to this show,
0:01:06you know, all the apps that you guys make.
0:01:09I don't write about all of them, but maybe some of them.
0:01:11And I guess that's part of sort of what I want to kind of unpack today.
0:01:15And so I just kind of was, to start off with, I thought it would be interesting to just
0:01:18kind of talk through, if you could kind of walk through what a typical, the typical process
0:01:22or kind of lifespan or workflow of what typically happens
0:01:27when a developer comes to you and says,
0:01:29"Hey, I just wrote this new app, this new thing,
0:01:32"this new service, and I sort of want to get your opinion,
0:01:35"your impressions, maybe get you to write about it."
0:01:38What does that kind of look like normally?
0:01:41- There's like so many weird details
0:01:45that kind of integrate into this whole conversation.
0:01:48Something we were talking about before the show,
0:01:50David, you were talking about how you've got all these apps
0:01:51that you have to manage and ones that you're working on for the future, you know,
0:01:54updates to current ones that you've got.
0:01:55Um, and it's all this juggling that you have to do because you're a one man shop
0:01:59and you develop all your own stuff.
0:02:00Uh, and so it's kind of a similar situation to me.
0:02:03I'm a one man shop.
0:02:04And so I can only really ever focus on maybe one or two, um, articles at a time
0:02:10if I'm doing a review of an app.
0:02:11Um, and for me personally, that's not even the, the only thing that I write about.
0:02:16There's a lot of different topics that I cover.
0:02:18uh...
0:02:19and so doing reviews of i_o_s_ apps is is one of the main things i do but
0:02:25something only thing that i do
0:02:27and so there's no way that i'm able to keep up
0:02:29with uh... basically all of the requests that come in to check out an app
0:02:34and give feedback or to do a review of it
0:02:36uh... in addition to
0:02:38there's a lot of apps out there that i'm discovering through different channels
0:02:41that i'm interested in "oh you know what i want to try this one out, i want to do a review of that app"
0:02:45and things like that.
0:02:46So it's kind of balancing all of that stuff.
0:02:49So I think one of the questions that we wanted to tackle
0:02:52was sort of like, how, as an iOS developer,
0:02:56do you get the attention of someone like me or other guys
0:02:59that are out there in the media that have either the larger
0:03:02corporate sites like iMore or The Verge or whatever it may be,
0:03:07or some of the individual guys like myself or Stephen Hackett
0:03:11or Marco or John Gruber, those guys.
0:03:14How do you get attention through email?
0:03:16And I guess the truth of it is, for the emails I get,
0:03:22I probably get two or three dozen emails a week of people
0:03:26that are working on an app, either that it's just come out,
0:03:28or it's now kind of in the final stages of beta.
0:03:32Or sometimes it's just, hey, I have an idea.
0:03:33What do you think of this idea?
0:03:35So I get emails like that pretty regularly.
0:03:37And most of the time, I'm not even able to reply,
0:03:41which is because there's not something that grabs your attention.
0:03:48I don't know, when you're reading through RSS feeds, right, and you're going through
0:03:51it, a lot of times you're just skimming the headlines.
0:03:54And nine out of the ten, you go, "Oh, that's kind of interesting, whatever."
0:03:58And then there's the one or the two that really pique your interest, then you click through
0:04:01and you go to read the article.
0:04:03It's very similar with me with the email and stuff like that.
0:04:06I've got a few internal rules that I follow in terms of, is this something that's probably
0:04:12going to be interesting or is this just going to be, you know, is this just someone that's
0:04:16just trying to get my attention, hoping that I'll basically be free publicity for them.
0:04:22And that's kind of the thing that I try to avoid is I don't want to be, since I'm an
0:04:27indie blogger and I do my own thing and a lot of the income that I earn is through people
0:04:31who sign up for membership to my site.
0:04:34the biggest resource that I have to give is basically like my honest opinion about stuff.
0:04:40And so when I'm writing about an app and doing an iOS review, I really try to focus on writing
0:04:47about things that I actually like that this is an app that I'm interested in. This is an app that's
0:04:51cool. So I don't, you know, I don't regurgitate press releases. I don't usually just link to
0:04:58something or do a review of something just because it's new, but I would like to really actually
0:05:03invest my time and energy into becoming familiar with the app, using it for a while, and forming
0:05:10an educated opinion about this app. And then if I like it and I'm actually interested in it,
0:05:17that's where then I'll then take the step and then promote it on my site to my readership.
0:05:21So I guess the biggest thing for me, if someone wants to get me to review their app or to link
0:05:27to it or to try it out, it has to be an app that I think I'm genuinely going to be interested in.
0:05:33in, either as a user or the app itself is doing something really innovative or really
0:05:38clever or it's, you know, either through the design or the functionality or both, that
0:05:43it's worth drawing attention to and I think it's worth checking out and, you know, pointing
0:05:47my readers to go.
0:05:48So that's sort of like the matrix.
0:05:53It's monologued forever there.
0:05:54But that's sort of like the matrix of all this stuff that kind of goes through my mind
0:05:58when I'm first being requested, you know, "Hey, check out my app."
0:06:02- The biggest thing that I hear you saying that I think,
0:06:06I've seen a number of people make this mistake,
0:06:09is what you're trying to do is,
0:06:12as a developer who's trying to pitch to somebody,
0:06:15you want to make sure that you're pitching
0:06:17the right thing to the right person.
0:06:19I think there are certain kind,
0:06:22I imagine that if someone who has been reading your site
0:06:25for months and months and has a pretty good sense
0:06:28of kind of who you are and the things you like,
0:06:32can probably be, can understand pretty,
0:06:34even before they send the message,
0:06:36if it's something that you're gonna be interested in.
0:06:39You know, it's like, and that,
0:06:40you're probably, it's gonna be far better
0:06:43for somebody to almost be catering to something
0:06:45that obviously is a known interest
0:06:46or the kind of things you like, then,
0:06:48you know, and for like, maybe the obvious example would be
0:06:51like if someone starts becoming,
0:06:52he's like, hey, I just wrote this awesome Windows Phone app.
0:06:56Like, that's probably not something that you're,
0:06:59that would grab your attention,
0:07:01not because the app isn't cool,
0:07:02but because that's not what you do,
0:07:05that's not your area of expertise.
0:07:07You don't even have a phone.
0:07:08- Well, I don't even have a Windows phone, exactly.
0:07:10Great, thumbs up.
0:07:12Go talk to Lex Friedman.
0:07:15- Exactly, it's like you gotta find the right person
0:07:18to hit it rather than, and I'm sure,
0:07:19I imagine you can tell pretty quick
0:07:21if somebody is just kind of spamming every email address
0:07:24they can find for someone in the press
0:07:26versus someone who's writing you a letter saying,
0:07:29"Hey, Faishan, here's this thing I made.
0:07:32"I think you might like it because XYZ."
0:07:36- Yeah, well, so let's talk about spam email.
0:07:38I kind of have two, there's two initial setups
0:07:41that basically I don't even read the email.
0:07:44Nine times out of 10, I won't even read the email.
0:07:45This is what I notice.
0:07:46First of all, if they've misspelled my name
0:07:49or my name's not even addressed,
0:07:52you know, if it just says hi, or, you know,
0:07:54"Dear webmaster," or, you know,
0:07:56"Dear product manager," whatever, I just delete.
0:07:59uh... because i might you know maybe there's something there but chances are
0:08:02ninety nine percent
0:08:03that that there's probably nothing of interest there and it's just as spam
0:08:08email for whatever it may be
0:08:10uh... and there's so many really really great things out there
0:08:13that trying to decipher
0:08:15is this email that looks like spam really spam you know even spending two
0:08:19minutes researching what the whatever product is that they're trying to pitch
0:08:23me
0:08:24is is
0:08:25you know ninety nine percent times not worth the two minutes
0:08:27so i just delete those right off the bat
0:08:29and the other thing is uh... is when
0:08:32uh... next i i have all my email set for plain text email and less like it sent
0:08:36as a you know there's rich text formatting within their and so a lot of
0:08:40times
0:08:41you can tell
0:08:43when there was part of the email that was like written and then part of the
0:08:46email that was pasted with formatting
0:08:48so there's these two you can tell like ones in my monosys font and ones in
0:08:52whatever you know they use ariel and it's purple or whatever it is
0:08:56And so when you see these differences and it says,
0:08:59hi, Sean.
0:09:01And then it switches to Ariel or whatever and says, guess what?
0:09:04We just came out and I can tell, OK, they just copied and pasted
0:09:07this.
0:09:08And I'm like, there's some times where
0:09:10I have to do that, where I'm sending out a very similar email
0:09:13to five or six people.
0:09:16And so there's the copying and pasting.
0:09:18I'm not against that.
0:09:20But then that's a quick tip off that says, OK,
0:09:22this is a spam email with at least a little bit more thought put into it.
0:09:29And so sometimes I'll look at those, but usually those
0:09:31don't get my attention very much either, because I know it's still not
0:09:35like a personalized email.
0:09:37And if you're a developer, you're reaching out probably to dozens,
0:09:42if not hundreds, of media outlets and sites and bloggers and people
0:09:46whom you respect and whatnot.
0:09:48And so you can't write 100 personalized emails.
0:09:51I understand that.
0:09:52I don't I'm not like against the copy and paste
0:09:56It's just usually that's one of the tip offs when you can see the difference there between the plain text and the rich text
0:10:00And so sometimes if it if it sounds interesting or you know, they've got a link that goes to some screenshots
0:10:07You know, sometimes I'll click through and if the app looks
0:10:10Well designed that's kind of them like the second
0:10:15I don't like the second milestone or whatever maybe for if I'm interested in is
0:10:22is you know see some of the screenshots and playing this looks great
0:10:25you know i keep there's that
0:10:27in just a visit to the clear like a professional level of polish
0:10:31or the the layout of that that
0:10:34you know the panel with the functionalities it looks
0:10:36like okay this looks really cool this could this could be something special
0:10:39uh...
0:10:40then all
0:10:41then the news that hey i don't send me semi abated invite
0:10:46or sometimes it's just a you know what let me know when your app launches
0:10:48'cause a lot of times that
0:10:50As a beta tester, I'm not able to get to it in time before it launches and then if I do sign up for the beta
0:10:56You know as a beta tester. There's you know, you want to give some feedback before the app actually does launch
0:11:01And things like that and if I just know I'm not gonna have time to look at this before the app launches
0:11:07you just let me know when it does launch and then I'll go buy it and check it out and
0:11:10I'll be able to write it back when I have the chance to write about it
0:11:14Yeah, I mean it's I think you would you said there what I thought is interesting for the way that I tend to approach
0:11:19'cause I've gone through this many times,
0:11:21and in fact, I think I've even gone through this with you.
0:11:24The way that I try and personalize things
0:11:26or make things be attractive is I,
0:11:29there's a certain amount of that's kind of like
0:11:33your stock copy about the app.
0:11:34That's kind of like your list of features,
0:11:38links to a video or a screencast or whatever it is.
0:11:41But what I tend to try and do is to write a letter
0:11:46to the person who I'm trying to communicate to
0:11:49that's to them based on my knowledge of them
0:11:52and kind of what I think they like.
0:11:54And then it's like, I'll just put the stock copy
0:11:56at the bottom kind of thing.
0:11:57And just be like, if you're interested after reading
0:12:00a personal paragraph that I'm writing to you,
0:12:03then you're probably more interested in reading
0:12:05whatever it is, the features and all the stuff about it
0:12:08rather than just starting with that
0:12:09and kind of just being like, hi,
0:12:10and then just diving into the generic pitch.
0:12:13That's the way that I tend to do it.
0:12:15yeah absolutely and i'm
0:12:16because if uh...
0:12:18and i'm very i'm
0:12:19i'll read the emails for sure i read almost every email that i get
0:12:23if it's if it's not a press release or you know the generic spam email
0:12:28i read most of the emails and so
0:12:31uh... an email that comes in the you've got my attention at least for a few
0:12:33minutes
0:12:34and i think that i am
0:12:36basically one of the
0:12:37the main ways uh... all use an example
0:12:42uh... michael simmons to who runs uh...
0:12:45flexibits and does fantastical
0:12:48uh... i got an email from him i don't know you're not figure whatever when
0:12:51they were working on fantastic out for the back
0:12:53and
0:12:56the basic you know he's shown work on this app with a free trade out with a
0:12:59free to debate as it gives your feedback
0:13:02uh... if you're interested
0:13:04and
0:13:05there's
0:13:06a lot of people use kind of sensational language you know where
0:13:09we've reinvented the calendar or we use breakthrough natural language processing
0:13:14or things like that, which most of the time you're like, OK,
0:13:18everyone says that they're doing that, right?
0:13:20And I can't remember if Michael had that in his email or not.
0:13:22But he had a couple screenshots of Fantastic Al on the Mac.
0:13:24And I was like, hey, this is a good looking app, really cool.
0:13:27And then he was using-- Raji King was doing the icon design
0:13:30and the UI design for the app.
0:13:33Actually, I think Icon Factory did the icon design.
0:13:35And then Raji King did the actual UI for the app itself.
0:13:39And I'm friends with Raji.
0:13:40So I was like, oh, very cool.
0:13:42So there was a little bit of-- there's a connection there.
0:13:45OK, oh, their designer.
0:13:46I'm friends with their designer.
0:13:48The app itself looks really cool.
0:13:50And then he said, we'd love to have you as a beta tester.
0:13:52And then if you'd like, we'd love
0:13:54for you to release an early review of the app
0:13:59before we're letting anyone else do a review of the app.
0:14:01So there was kind of like-- I was getting a little bit
0:14:04of special attention there.
0:14:05And that is-- which I appreciate that very much,
0:14:08because for me, I'm basically-- I can't remember who said this,
0:14:12but he says, the quote, the guy says,
0:14:15"The news is everything that no one wants me to publish,
0:14:19"and then everything else is advertising."
0:14:21And so, in a way, like doing a review of an app,
0:14:24it's free advertising.
0:14:25I'm giving free advertising to Flexibits guys
0:14:29for Fantastical, but of course it's good for me too,
0:14:31because the readers are interested,
0:14:32they want to see a review and things like that.
0:14:34So him saying, "Hey, everyone's going to be writing
0:14:36"a review of this app when it comes out,
0:14:38"but you can do one ahead of time.
0:14:39I'll give you a pre-release, you know,
0:14:42you can write your review early.
0:14:44So that was really helpful for me,
0:14:45'cause I'm like, okay, yeah,
0:14:46if I'm going to invest the time to be a beta tester,
0:14:49work on this app and write up a review before it comes out,
0:14:53it's awesome that I'll get to release mine
0:14:55in a week or two before anyone else
0:14:56and be one of the early guys.
0:14:58'Cause in that sense, traffic my way in readers,
0:15:00and that's what's good for my business.
0:15:02So that's kind of one way
0:15:05that you can grab someone's attention,
0:15:07basically, a couple screenshots in there.
0:15:11I like hearing some of the back and forth story of the app.
0:15:14And so, David, I can't remember exactly what you said
0:15:17in your email, but I saw the screenshots of Check the Weather.
0:15:21I was like, this is awesome.
0:15:22You've got Dark Sky integrated.
0:15:24I use Dark Sky.
0:15:24So there's some of the dots, get connected,
0:15:27things that I'm familiar with, and how the things that I know
0:15:31relate with your app.
0:15:32So similar with Fantastic Cal, and they
0:15:34were working with Raji.
0:15:35there's a a little bit familiarity there and i think that that
0:15:40and i can instantly opens up a m i'm more receptive to the apt because you
0:15:44there's just so many pitches throughout the day that it's like
0:15:47if there's not a familiarity there i've got a
0:15:49kind of figure out what it is that that makes me interested in your app if
0:15:52there's something that i'm already familiar with
0:15:54that i you know that i'm fond of young big fan of dark skies to the fact that
0:15:57you had a integrated
0:15:59to check the weather's i want i want to take this out
0:16:01And then I used it for like half a second,
0:16:04and now it's the only weather app
0:16:07that's ever been on my home screen.
0:16:09So congratulations.
0:16:10- Cool, that's cool to hear.
0:16:13Yeah, 'cause I think what I remember
0:16:14when I was going around doing my pitches
0:16:16for Check the Weather,
0:16:18the thing that I remember consciously doing is A,
0:16:20I tend to, I probably only pitch, I don't know,
0:16:23four or five people.
0:16:24Like I'd really, I try and,
0:16:27I think in general, the developers are better off
0:16:30having the strong attention of a smaller group of people,
0:16:34rather than trying to have everybody interested
0:16:39about it at once.
0:16:40Like, you're just, it's like if everyone's special,
0:16:41no one's special.
0:16:42And so, it's like, and then it's like trying to focus in
0:16:46on what you're trying to do there.
0:16:47It's like, I know, if I knew somebody would work,
0:16:50like used Dark Sky before, integrated with it,
0:16:53I'm just gonna mention that.
0:16:54If I knew people cared about typography,
0:16:57it's like I'll talk about using Idlewild,
0:16:58like there are things that you can try and do to make it like it's this that
0:17:02you're speaking to that person that I think sounds like a lot of it's that
0:17:06same thing it's like you're trying to connect you're trying to write something
0:17:08that you think will connect with this person even if you've never met them
0:17:12based on if it's an author you've written you've read thousands of their
0:17:15words so hopefully you can write something to write a few hundred back
0:17:19that kind of mashes with what you know they like and what they the things they
0:17:23care about you if you read a review of another app you wrote you'll get a sense
0:17:27of the things that they care about.
0:17:29You know, talking about typography,
0:17:30if they've never talked about typography
0:17:32in any of their reviews, is probably a waste of time.
0:17:35- Mm-hmm.
0:17:36Yeah, absolutely.
0:17:37I think that you don't have to write an email
0:17:40to the writer, you know, whatever outlet you're writing to.
0:17:44You don't have to sound like, "Hey, I'm your new best friend."
0:17:47But I think just having that little bit of attention
0:17:50where you say, "Okay, here's the one or two
0:17:53"like hallmark features that I think
0:17:55"you're going to be interested in."
0:17:57A, I'm using Idlewild.
0:18:00Because Idlewild, I'm a huge fan of Tungsten.
0:18:02They're from the same foundry.
0:18:05And then Dark Sky.
0:18:07I've got Dark Sky integration.
0:18:08And there's more to it than that.
0:18:10Here's a couple screenshots.
0:18:11Let me know if you're interested.
0:18:13And then a lot of people like to offer promo codes.
0:18:16I personally go out and buy the apps that if I say, hey,
0:18:20I'm interested in it, I'm going to go ahead and buy it.
0:18:23I just feel like there's a little bit less conflict
0:18:25of interest there.
0:18:26So a lot of times people offer me the promo code, which I think is great.
0:18:29I think that's a--
0:18:31I would do that, say, here's a promo code.
0:18:34It's a good gesture of faith that says--
0:18:38because those promo codes, once you pass one out, you don't get it back.
0:18:41And I know as developers, you only have so many.
0:18:44And so in a way, I'm like, OK, this is a good faith gesture.
0:18:47They basically wasted a promo code on me.
0:18:50And then I'll usually write back and say, hey,
0:18:52feel free to share this with someone else.
0:18:55I went ahead and bought the app.
0:18:56United States or whatever.
0:18:58Unless it's-- if it's a pre-release version of the app,
0:19:01either through the beta, or a lot of times it'll be
0:19:03available in the App Store but not yet public.
0:19:05And so the promo code's the only way to get to the app and
0:19:08download it from the App Store.
0:19:09So I'll go that route if necessary, if it's not yet out.
0:19:15And then I think just--
0:19:17I don't know, maybe this is my personality.
0:19:19But a lot of times, basically saying, here's the app.
0:19:22I really hope that you'll be interested in it.
0:19:23Let me know if you have any questions.
0:19:25and sort of leaving it kind of open-handed like that
0:19:27as opposed to saying
0:19:29i hope you'll write a uh... a really long review
0:19:32and uh... and then also interview me and then also have me be a guest in your
0:19:35podcast is it all be wonderful things
0:19:37you know please let me know when we can
0:19:39uh... book that
0:19:40and and sort of like this expectation of going i want you to do this for me as
0:19:44opposed to
0:19:45i hope you like that and and being a little more open-handed about it
0:19:49i think there's more of a risk as a developer
0:19:52asking the the press to be kind of open-handed about saying hey we really
0:19:56hope you're interested in this
0:19:57but at the same time for me there's uh...
0:20:00when they're there's seemingly less pressure from the developer going hey i
0:20:03really want you to do this i really want you to check it out i really want you to
0:20:06help spread the word and and you know give us a shout out
0:20:10uh... a lot of times i can turns me off and have it i mean you know at these
0:20:14guys are a little needy
0:20:15uh... i would love to develop a relationship with them but i i can't be
0:20:19I don't want them to keep knocking on my door asking for free advertising all the
0:20:22time
0:20:23and as opposed to just building a relationship. I'm a user, they're a developer
0:20:28and you know their app is really cool, I'd like to use it and give feedback when I
0:20:32can
0:20:33but not be a full-time beta tester and
0:20:36so that's kind of just a balance in terms of developing relationships
0:20:40you know with the press and things like that and that's something that I think
0:20:43David Barnard is really excellent at.
0:20:46He's the guy behind Appcubby, his
0:20:48his big smash hit app recently, his Launch Center Pro.
0:20:53And he's a really good friend of mine,
0:20:58and I know he's really good friends
0:20:59with a lot of folks in the media.
0:21:01And so he's sort of got that friendship relationship,
0:21:04but he's very, very open-handed about it.
0:21:08And so I've never felt any pressure from him
0:21:11to review his apps or to cover them
0:21:13or to help spread the word in any regard.
0:21:16But I know that I'm on the beta list, and I check his stuff out.
0:21:20And whenever we're in San Francisco at the same time,
0:21:23we always meet up frequently and go over his apps.
0:21:26And he's showing me stuff, and I'm talking to him about stuff that I do.
0:21:29And whatnot.
0:21:30So there's a good relationship there, but he's very open-handed about it.
0:21:33And I think, at least for me personally, that's always a huge advantage
0:21:38to working with developers.
0:21:39And there's that-- I don't know, it feels like it's a mutual relationship,
0:21:43as opposed to I'm a source of free advertising.
0:21:45- Yeah, and I think what you said there
0:21:47that resonated a lot with me is I remember,
0:21:49I think I've had the best results, I guess you could say,
0:21:53and for a lot of the interactions I've had with the press
0:21:55where it's the first time I'm interacting with them
0:21:58isn't the first time I'm pitching them on something.
0:22:01- Yeah, that's huge.
0:22:03- And that can mean a lot of different things,
0:22:05but if I'm somebody who is thinking that down the road,
0:22:10I may be making something that would be interesting
0:22:14for you to look at.
0:22:16It's probably in my best interest for me to--
0:22:19it's like, well, I should be reading your blog every day,
0:22:21and I should be-- it's like interacting with you in that,
0:22:25or following you online and talking to you there,
0:22:27or when there's-- it's like giving you feedback,
0:22:31or offering opinions, or writing blog posts in response
0:22:33to things you've written that kind of created
0:22:35having that discussion.
0:22:37So the first time that you arrive at somebody and say,
0:22:42hey, this is what I've been working on,
0:22:43It's like, oh, let me see what Bill's been working on.
0:22:46I know Bill from whatever that thing was,
0:22:48rather than it's just like that sort of blank email.
0:22:51And I know for a lot of people, I mean,
0:22:53I think about someone like David Bernard,
0:22:54it's like that a lot of what he does,
0:22:56putting information out there, interacting with people,
0:22:58or helping people out, is about building relationships
0:23:02with people that aren't just about this kind of like,
0:23:05oh, I just want to sort of cozy up to the press.
0:23:09It's about just sort of putting things out there
0:23:12in the hopes of building it, sort of helping out,
0:23:14as you say, the community,
0:23:16and building that kind of recognition
0:23:17in a way that's not just kind of being off on your own
0:23:20and then just appearing one day and saying,
0:23:22"Hey, please, please talk about me."
0:23:24- Yeah, absolutely, and I think a lot of that is,
0:23:29you know, I mean, most press sites and most blogs,
0:23:32they're not gonna promote an app
0:23:34simply because they're friends with somebody.
0:23:37You know, I'm friends with a lot of people,
0:23:38and I don't promote all their apps,
0:23:40And I don't promote all the one.x releases and things
0:23:45like that.
0:23:45But when you're friends with them
0:23:47and then they pitch the app to you,
0:23:49you're much, much, much more likely to pay attention
0:23:53to what it is that they have to say.
0:23:54And a lot of times, that's the critical part, right?
0:23:57As a developer, it's like, you do have a great app.
0:24:01And it's awesome.
0:24:02But it's so hard to get that 30-second elevator pitch, even
0:24:06just to get that.
0:24:07And it's that initial, hey, I had a couple minutes
0:24:10to actually pitch the idea and show them the app.
0:24:14And that's all it takes to then get someone interested in your app,
0:24:17because you've actually developed something cool.
0:24:20And I can imagine as a developer, that's
0:24:21probably one of the most frustrating parts,
0:24:23is you're like, this app is really great, and nobody knows it.
0:24:26And that's where the relationship comes in,
0:24:30David, that you're talking about, is when you've
0:24:32got the relationship with people, then they're
0:24:34willing to give you the time to look over, OK, yeah,
0:24:37go ahead and show me your app.
0:24:39Give me 30 seconds.
0:24:40Show me how it works.
0:24:41And then once you see it, you're like, oh, this
0:24:43is really, really cool.
0:24:45And it was a very similar situation
0:24:48I had with Arc, the backup thing that works with Amazon.
0:24:52The guy, Stefan, who writes it, I just
0:24:54ended up by chance meeting him.
0:24:57I was with Jim Dalrymple.
0:24:58We were having coffee at WWDC a couple years ago.
0:25:01And so the three of us are talking.
0:25:04And I was using Backblaze.
0:25:05And I was like, why would I need Arc, too?
0:25:06And he goes, "Well, let me give you a second."
0:25:08And he had my attention.
0:25:10And it took him like two minutes, and I was like,
0:25:12"Oh my gosh, I'm sold."
0:25:13And then I went home, or I went back to the hotel,
0:25:16and I bought a version of Arc.
0:25:17And I use it now, and I'm a huge proponent of it.
0:25:20And it's just that initial, if you can get someone's
0:25:23attention and whatnot, and so the relationship aspect,
0:25:26and like you're saying, you're communicating with them
0:25:30through Twitter or app.net, or you're sending in emails
0:25:33in response to stuff and whatnot.
0:25:35and you've got your own blog, and you're writing stuff
0:25:38in replies, or you're even just part of the conversation,
0:25:42and you're part of that world, then
0:25:46you've got a little bit more respect.
0:25:48You've got a little bit of recognition.
0:25:50Even if it's small, you don't have
0:25:52a huge site that gets tons of traffic all the time,
0:25:55or anything like that, but you're just part
0:25:57of the conversation, and you're there.
0:25:59And then you develop a few friendships and relationships
0:26:02here and there.
0:26:02And then that sort of can be some of those familiar ties.
0:26:07Or you come and say, "I'm working on this app,
0:26:08"and by the way, your friend over here,
0:26:11"he's a beta tester, he said he's going to try it out.
0:26:13"Maybe you want to try it out too."
0:26:14And you go, "Oh, okay, sure."
0:26:16And there's that, there's a familiarity there,
0:26:18and I think that's one of the best things that you can do
0:26:21in terms of marketing your app
0:26:23and getting the word out there.
0:26:24And then you're part of the community too, right?
0:26:26You're doing more than just trying to make a dollar
0:26:29through having a relationship
0:26:31with someone who's got a website.
0:26:32you're actually contributing to the indie community
0:26:35of the developers and the writers and all of us
0:26:38that are part of this community.
0:26:39And I think that's, you know, that has rewards
0:26:42in and of itself, I think.
0:26:43- Yeah, and I think there's, the thing that you,
0:26:44I think you're hitting on there, too,
0:26:46is there's an importance for that to be genuine
0:26:50in a way that it's, the purpose of being a member
0:26:53of that community and being part of that conversation
0:26:56isn't so that you can pitch the press later, right?
0:27:00it's going to be very apparent if that's what you're trying to do.
0:27:04It's like the goal, at least for me, my goal is to be part of the community because I enjoy
0:27:10that because I like the people in it and I want to engage with them as best I can.
0:27:14And then it has the side benefit of, you know, there's like follow on effects of that, that
0:27:19when it comes time to have your launch, to try and reach out to people, you're a known
0:27:26quantity in that way.
0:27:27but it's like you're going to be very frustrated
0:27:29if your goal is to try and build just enough
0:27:34of a reputation that you can get on people's radars.
0:27:37The goal should really be the other way around.
0:27:39Your goal is just this happy side effect
0:27:42of having these relationships with people
0:27:45is that when it comes time to sort of cash in
0:27:49that relationship capital that you build up,
0:27:52that you have that available to you.
0:27:55- Yeah, I totally agree that the genuineness
0:27:59will shine through or it'll be seen as
0:28:02that you're being phony.
0:28:04I also think it's, are you in this for,
0:28:06are you trying to strike the lottery
0:28:08or are you trying to build a career
0:28:09and really contribute to the entire industry?
0:28:12And I think that for those interested in the ladder,
0:28:15those relationships, you never quote unquote cash in
0:28:19your relationship equity, you're continually building it
0:28:24because, okay, now that we've worked together with this app,
0:28:27and I've, whatever, you helped me spread the word,
0:28:30thanks for that, okay, now I'm working on a new one,
0:28:32are you interested in being a part of that one as well?
0:28:34And it's, you're continually moving forward
0:28:37because as a writer, I'm always looking for new things
0:28:40to write about, and there's always something new
0:28:42and interesting to check out,
0:28:43and technology is evolving so quickly
0:28:45that a lot of times I'm switching tools,
0:28:46whatever it may be.
0:28:47As developers, you guys are working on new apps
0:28:50and new ideas and breaking into new markets
0:28:53things like that. And so there's hopefully the ability to build ongoing relationships
0:28:59instead of just, "Okay, I built friendships. I checked that off the list." And I mean,
0:29:06come on, who's really got a checklist that says, "Okay, develop friendship with X blogger."
0:29:12That'd be weird.
0:29:13Well, it just wouldn't work, is the problem. I think, and the reality is, if I'm honest
0:29:21with myself, there was probably a time when I was starting
0:29:23out that that's what I thought I needed to do.
0:29:27In a way that it was like, okay, I'm a,
0:29:30it's like I'm an unknown developer.
0:29:34There is, and how do I, it's like,
0:29:36it seems like what you need to do is you need to get
0:29:38written up on XYZ blog.
0:29:40It's like, okay, so I'm going to try and,
0:29:44I don't even know, like get their attention.
0:29:46But the reality is, is sort of once you understand
0:29:48that it's like that type of a consciousness about it
0:29:50intentionality doesn't really work.
0:29:53It's the kind of thing that just happens as a result of,
0:29:55like, once you realize that, no, actually,
0:29:57the people who I'm interested in have writing about my apps
0:30:00are interesting people because they're interested
0:30:02in the same things I'm interested in.
0:30:04And we have something in common there
0:30:05that's much more interesting than what I'm working on.
0:30:08That, like, as soon as you kind of get beyond that,
0:30:11then all of a sudden it's like, it opens up this world
0:30:12of like, no, this is actually really cool.
0:30:14Like, I'm enjoying this conversation,
0:30:16and it's not just like this sort of thing
0:30:18I'm trying to do, to tick a box on a list.
0:30:24Yeah, absolutely.
0:30:25And I think, kind of looking at it on the other side
0:30:27from my viewpoint, when I first started writing full time
0:30:30about two years ago, I was like, well, I write about iOS apps.
0:30:34So I went to WWDC to meet with developers, right?
0:30:38And sort of develop a relationship
0:30:40with some of these guys.
0:30:41And there's a lot of other Apple bloggers that are out there.
0:30:43And because it's like this huge--
0:30:46it's just this like spider web network, right?
0:30:49Where all these-- all the indie writers, all the indie developers,
0:30:53the indie podcasters, we're all sort of--
0:30:56we're kind of all in the same group together, right?
0:30:59We're part of the same conversation.
0:31:00And so a lot of it, you go to these conferences,
0:31:03and you meet some of the quote unquote "the little guys."
0:31:06But the little guys happen to be really good friends with some
0:31:09of the big guys.
0:31:10And so you end up--
0:31:12So maybe you don't get to meet John Gruber because he's busy
0:31:15and he kind of hides and doesn't want to get mobbed.
0:31:18But you meet someone else who happens
0:31:20to be friends with John Gruber.
0:31:21And then you get this other guy, and you build a relationship
0:31:24with him, and then he's using your app,
0:31:26and then he writes about it on his site.
0:31:27Well, Gruber reads the other guy's site.
0:31:29Gruber says, oh, I found this app through my friend.
0:31:32And then he ends up linking to your app.
0:31:33And so there's this network.
0:31:35And so you don't have to go for just the big fish in the pond.
0:31:38You go for the people that-- that guy's interesting.
0:31:40I'm actually interested in building a relationship with him or her and developing that.
0:31:47For the long term, it really is, I think, the best bet.
0:31:52You might not get your overnight success that way, but you're building a career that way.
0:31:56I think that's a lot more valuable.
0:31:59So changing gears slightly, I was curious in terms of what are things that developers
0:32:06can do to make your life as easy as possible?
0:32:09So once you've gone through this first phase,
0:32:13so like someone has your attention,
0:32:15you're interested in what they're doing
0:32:18and you're kind of wanting to pursue it.
0:32:20Are there things that we can do to ease
0:32:24and sort of streamline that process for you?
0:32:26It's like things like, I think about like having a press kit,
0:32:29having those types of things or things that we should be
0:32:33putting out there that help,
0:32:35so sort of, 'cause obviously, we have an incentive
0:32:38to make your life as easy as possible,
0:32:39because if it's that much easier for you to write something,
0:32:42then it becomes that much more likely
0:32:44that you will write something.
0:32:47- I always like to know, I never look at press kits.
0:32:50I just always ignore them.
0:32:52If I'm going to do screenshots,
0:32:53I usually like to do my own screenshots
0:32:55of the particular screens that I find interesting,
0:32:58but I usually don't even do screenshots anyways.
0:33:02So what I usually like to know is give me the two or three
0:33:05bullet points.
0:33:07What's the one reason that makes your app so great?
0:33:09And what's the one reason that you think I'm interested?
0:33:12What should I look for?
0:33:15And then I also am always very interested in the story
0:33:19behind the app.
0:33:22Were you walking your dog when you had the idea for this?
0:33:24Were you taking a shower?
0:33:25Were you on a road trip to St. Louis?
0:33:27Like tell me, where did the idea strike you?
0:33:31how long have you been working on it, what's your team like, where are you guys based?
0:33:34I always like to know the story because I think
0:33:37personally that's a lot more interesting to me or it can make an app a lot more
0:33:40interesting when you know a little bit about the people and the work that's
0:33:44gone behind it, like the real people that are there.
0:33:46So for me, once the developers got my attention, I like to know,
0:33:50give me the one or two top points
0:33:54and you can copy and paste them from the press release, that's fine.
0:33:57And then give me a little bit of a background story about, you as the developer buying this
0:34:03app and like, did you quit your job and this is your first app?
0:34:08Did you mortgage your house to hire out another graphic designer?
0:34:11Like, give me the juicy details.
0:34:13I'm interested in that kind of stuff because that's what makes the app come alive.
0:34:17And then also, I'm also very interested in knowing who else in the press are you talking
0:34:22to?
0:34:23A lot of these guys, Vittici and Rene Ritchie and these guys,
0:34:28we're all friends, right?
0:34:30So we all kind of have our little thing where, hey,
0:34:33you're working on this app or whatever.
0:34:34What do you think about this?
0:34:36What do you think about that?
0:34:38And so we kind of have our water cooler chats.
0:34:41And so for me, it's actually very helpful
0:34:43to know if there's another-- who else is working on the app?
0:34:48Or who else has the beta access to it?
0:34:51Because then that gives me a place-- a lot of us, we work--
0:34:54we work from home or we work alone.
0:34:56And so there's not-- we don't have
0:34:58anyone to talk to about the apps other than our wives.
0:35:01And hey, you know, babe, welcome.
0:35:03Checking out this new-- an example
0:35:06was Checkmark from the snowman guys.
0:35:12And a really, really cool reminders app
0:35:14for location-based stuff.
0:35:16And I was on the beta there, but I didn't
0:35:18know who else was on the beta.
0:35:20And so it was like, I'm kind of like using it,
0:35:22but I've got no one to dialogue with about.
0:35:24And I know that a lot of times as a developer,
0:35:27you want to keep things top secret and keep it closed down.
0:35:33And so it's sort of like there's just this vacuum
0:35:37dialogue between just myself and just the developer and nobody
0:35:40else.
0:35:41And so I don't know if I'm the only person that
0:35:43has access to this app.
0:35:45Probably not.
0:35:47But then who else does?
0:35:48And is everyone going to be writing a review the day that this thing launches?
0:35:52You know, if so, what are they going to write about?
0:35:54And so I really like to know who else, basically, that's the very long and
0:35:59roundabout way of saying who else has access to this and is it okay if I
0:36:03talk with them and things like that.
0:36:05Um, and that was one of the things I really enjoyed.
0:36:07You know, actually David, we were talking about this even before the show with
0:36:10Sean Edman when he was doing, uh, development for Fever back in, like,
0:36:14I don't know, it was like five years ago or something like that.
0:36:17It was a long time ago.
0:36:18And so his beta development group was a group of guys.
0:36:23He did a group email, and he said, hey,
0:36:26if you're interested, let me know.
0:36:28And if you're interested in beta testing,
0:36:30you have to let me know.
0:36:30And so everyone kind of replied.
0:36:32And then there was this group, and there
0:36:34was like half a dozen guys.
0:36:35And it was like the beta testing and the conversation
0:36:38about the app was done as a group.
0:36:41And it was in group email and things like that.
0:36:43And I know Daniel Jalka does that with his Mars Edit mailing
0:36:46list.
0:36:47I think I'm allowed to say that.
0:36:48So Daniel Jockett does that with Mars Edit and things like that.
0:36:52So there's a little bit community there with the beta testers
0:36:55and the reviewers and things like that.
0:36:57And that's something that I find a lot of value in that.
0:37:00And it's helpful for me to talk about the app with other people that are using it
0:37:04and things like that, especially if I'm trying to work on a review that's
0:37:07going to be a little bit more in-depth or talk about a different aspect.
0:37:12So Federico Viticci, he's going, I'm writing about this part,
0:37:16and I'm trying to pull out this aspect of the app.
0:37:19Okay, well I'm going to do my review
0:37:21and try to focus on this other thing
0:37:23so that we don't overlap and basically write the same review
0:37:26for, you know, because then people are like,
0:37:27well, I'm just only going to read one of them.
0:37:30So that's helpful in that regard.
0:37:31- Yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to an interesting thing
0:37:34that I think a lot of developers get a bit too caught up
0:37:37in the secretiveness of what it is they're doing.
0:37:42Where it's kind of like this, there's this fear that,
0:37:45I don't even really know what the,
0:37:47there's all these different,
0:37:48I don't know if people have different fears
0:37:49about what's going to happen,
0:37:50but it's like in general, in my experience,
0:37:53the more people you have talking about
0:37:55what it is you're doing that are interested in it
0:37:58as possible is almost always going to be the better.
0:38:01You know, it's very rare that you're going to
0:38:04somehow be shooting yourself in the foot
0:38:06by putting, getting too much attention
0:38:08from too many people.
0:38:10- Right, well and I also think that there's,
0:38:12if I know that there's five or 10 other guys
0:38:15that also have beta access that are in the media,
0:38:19and they're going to write a review or something like that,
0:38:22I feel part of the momentum with the app release.
0:38:24And I want, as a--
0:38:28for you, Dave, with Check the Weather,
0:38:29I wanted it to be a huge success.
0:38:31I'm like, why not?
0:38:32Why not sell a million copies of this weather app?
0:38:35That would be awesome.
0:38:36High five.
0:38:37And then when we meet up for WWCE, you can buy me a drink.
0:38:40And so I very much want the app to be successful for you.
0:38:46And so if I know who else is part of that group leading up
0:38:49to the launch, who's going to be covering it,
0:38:51what are they writing out, what do they like about it,
0:38:53what don't they like about it, and there's
0:38:55sort of this kind of a group dynamic around the app,
0:39:00then I feel part of the momentum leading up to it.
0:39:02I feel more involved.
0:39:03I feel more engaged.
0:39:04And there's more excitement for me working on the review
0:39:08because it's not something I'm just doing in a vacuum.
0:39:11There's, it's, yes, this is awesome.
0:39:13And then I can be excited, and I know who else is writing it.
0:39:17So then I can say, if I really want to go for it
0:39:20and really help you promote your app, then I know that, OK, well,
0:39:23Rene Ritchie's writing a review, and Matt Panzorino's writing one,
0:39:26and so's Fotichi, and so's Steven Hackett, and these guys.
0:39:30And so then I can go check their sites, and then maybe I'll link to their reviews
0:39:33on Twitter or whatever it may be.
0:39:36And there's even more helping spread the word that way,
0:39:38because I feel like I'm part of the inner circle.
0:39:41Related to that, but getting slightly more specific,
0:39:44what do you think about things like embargoes?
0:39:47It seems like there's this very--
0:39:49I don't know, there's two schools of thought.
0:39:51It's something that I've never gotten into myself.
0:39:53It's just sort of like, I'll let people
0:39:55know who are writing about it.
0:39:56It'll be launching on this day, but I
0:39:59don't tend to get too like, OK, well,
0:40:02you don't write about it until 10 AM, or don't-- whatever.
0:40:05Where do you come down on that?
0:40:06Or do you think those are useful at all, or just annoying
0:40:09as someone writing?
0:40:11I think it really is up to the developer.
0:40:14I think there's an advantage.
0:40:17I think when you're selling an iOS app or something that
0:40:21isn't available until a certain time,
0:40:24there's an advantage there to not releasing
0:40:28too much excitement about the app
0:40:30until it's actually available.
0:40:31Because people go, oh, cool.
0:40:33I want to try that app out.
0:40:34"Oh, it's not available yet?"
0:40:35And then, out of sight, out of mind, right?
0:40:38And so, in a way, you don't want everyone
0:40:40talking about it before it's available,
0:40:43but something that I've always appreciated as a writer
0:40:47is when I had that opportunity with Fantastical,
0:40:51I got to write an early review of it.
0:40:53Similar with Checkmark, I got to write a review.
0:40:56I think I wrote the Checkmark review
0:40:57like two weeks before it came out,
0:40:59and I remember actually getting pinged
0:41:00by a couple other guys, and they were like,
0:41:02did you just break your embargo?
0:41:04I was like, no, actually, I had permission to write this early.
0:41:06And so there was kind of a--
0:41:09I don't know.
0:41:09So I think embargoes can be cool.
0:41:12Or just a request that you say, hey,
0:41:13I'd prefer you wait until such and such a date
0:41:17to publish your review.
0:41:18And then maybe giving one or two people early access.
0:41:22Hey, if you want to do a preview review, you can.
0:41:27But then a lot of times, people said, hey,
0:41:29if you want to do an earlier review, that's awesome.
0:41:31And then if you'll do a long form review, uh, when it actually launches, that'd be
0:41:35great.
0:41:36And for me, it's usually like, I usually only do just one or the other.
0:41:38Um, I wouldn't do both.
0:41:40So I think that's up to the developer.
0:41:42If, if you want to do an embargo, I think they're fine.
0:41:44If you, um, I know if I was a developer, I would probably do, um, embargoes or
0:41:50something like that, where there's some sort of a coordinated, uh, you know,
0:41:54coordinated efforts so that when the app is finally publicized, then it's, it's
0:41:59also at the same time that it's available.
0:42:01- Yeah.
0:42:02- 'Cause I think you can lose a lot of potential sales
0:42:04that way.
0:42:05- Okay.
0:42:06And then lastly, I thought it'd be an interesting place
0:42:09to wrap up is, as somebody who spends a lot of time
0:42:12working about, thinking about, reviewing, and writing
0:42:15about apps, having the sort of the ear of a number of,
0:42:19the people who listen to the show are people
0:42:23who are making apps.
0:42:24What are some of the things that you would look forward
0:42:27to getting an email down the road about?
0:42:30Like what are kind of some of the holes or the apps
0:42:32that you think are missing?
0:42:33Or what attributes of apps tend to get you excited?
0:42:37Oh, man, that's a--
0:42:39I don't know.
0:42:40I get a lot of--
0:42:44I don't know.
0:42:46I'm a huge fan of coffee apps.
0:42:48There you go.
0:42:50And I still haven't quite come across exactly
0:42:56the perfect coffee app.
0:42:59most of the coffee apps that i've i've come across
0:43:02they they don't let you build your own recipe
0:43:05uh... and i've got a lake
0:43:07and i guess i can press i have a that clever driver of the sixty of an arrow
0:43:11press at a french press
0:43:13uh...
0:43:14and i've got something else in forgetting about again all these coffee
0:43:18machines and i've got like one or two or three
0:43:21recipes for each one i just got up this whole
0:43:23uh... plethora of going to those able brewing kids like the chem x with the
0:43:27the thingamajigger, but they like, it's on Kickstarter.
0:43:30- Okay.
0:43:31- It's on its way, it finally got its shipping this week.
0:43:35So I've got all these different things,
0:43:36and I would love to just have like my own
0:43:38coffee recipe book, where I can literally build
0:43:42my own recipes for, okay, this is the grind type,
0:43:45this is how much coffee grounds to put in,
0:43:48this is how much water, this is the bloom time,
0:43:52this is then the brew time, then this is when,
0:43:55okay now here's your alarm for each, you know, okay start, okay now it's time to finish the
0:43:59bloom, now it's time to stir, now it's time to brew, like just build out like this step
0:44:02by step instruction. And the ones that do have that sort of workflow, they've built
0:44:08in their own recipes and I can't edit, I can't add, or the ones that, um, that do let me
0:44:14kind of build in some of my own recipes, they're not, they don't give me quite the type of
0:44:18granular approach that I want. So the app that I do use now is BrewTimer, which is a
0:44:24really nice app, but it's not quite ideal for me.
0:44:29But it's pretty close.
0:44:30It's the closest.
0:44:31So I don't know, maybe that would be--
0:44:34and then maybe something that works with Amazon S3 to edit.
0:44:39I've heard you say that many times before.
0:44:41You wish there was some kind of good S3 app for managing files
0:44:45and getting public URLs and doing all that.
0:44:48Yeah.
0:44:49Yeah, there's nothing that I know of.
0:44:51So I use like Hazel and Python scripts to--
0:44:54I have this ridiculous, dorky way of uploading podcasts
0:44:59from my phone using my media server.
0:45:02It's super nerdy.
0:45:04Cool.
0:45:05Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for taking the time.
0:45:09I think you went into a lot of detail about stuff
0:45:11that-- some lessons I didn't even know.
0:45:13So hopefully that's helpful to other listeners as well.
0:45:15And instead of getting a little bit
0:45:17into the mind of the press, and hopefully we
0:45:20can send you less annoying emails in the future.
0:45:25Short and sweet is always recommended.
0:45:27Exactly.
0:45:28And all my advice is going to be very different from a site
0:45:32like-- Rene Ritchie, who runs iMore,
0:45:36his site's going to be very different,
0:45:38because they've got a whole staff.
0:45:39They've got people dedicated to certain genres of apps
0:45:42and things like that.
0:45:44And so a lot of sites like that, they cover everything,
0:45:47because they're able to.
0:45:48And it's very different from a guy like me who can just cover the things that I'm interested in,
0:45:53in which I am wanting to promote. It's a very different approach.
0:45:58Though I think the premise of what we were talking about, though, I don't think changes.
0:46:04That you're always going to be well-served to be respectful of who you're writing to,
0:46:10of who you're pitching, to be aware and conscious of their work, and to be trying to make what
0:46:18what you're doing relevant to them,
0:46:20whether that's going to be,
0:46:23we're seeing someone on a smaller site
0:46:24or someone on a bigger site.
0:46:26Like, those kind of rules, I think, are always going to work.
0:46:28So, it's like, you may have more luck on a bigger site
0:46:31because they have more bandwidth,
0:46:32but my gut says being respectful of other people's time
0:46:37and energy is always going to be a good idea.
0:46:40- Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
0:46:43- So, all right, well, I guess,
0:46:44thank you so much for taking the time,
0:46:46and I really appreciate it.
0:46:48- Yeah, thanks for having me on the show.