Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 441.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,

00:00:16 ◼   ► Text Expander, and Capital One.

00:00:18 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snow.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:22 ◼   ► - Hi, Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:24 ◼   ► - I'm very good, my friend.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I'm very good indeed.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I have a snow talk question for you

00:00:27 ◼   ► to begin today's episode of the show.

00:00:29 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:00:30 ◼   ► - It comes from Michael, who wants to know,

00:00:32 ◼   ► does Jason cut his pizzas into six or eight slices

00:00:37 ◼   ► and does he use a pizza cutter or a knife to achieve this?

00:00:40 ◼   ► - Are we back on the pizza?

00:00:41 ◼   ► We're back on the pizza question, huh?

00:00:42 ◼   ► - We talk about pizza a lot on the show,

00:00:44 ◼   ► sometimes during sponsored content, but.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - Sometimes during sponsored content.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Upgrade Plus subscribers may not hear that content,

00:00:52 ◼   ► but it's there.

00:00:54 ◼   ► The answer is eight.

00:00:56 ◼   ► I cut pizza into eight slices.

00:00:59 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:01:00 ◼   ► - In part because it's the most logical thing to do

00:01:04 ◼   ► and in part because I have,

00:01:08 ◼   ► when they're all home, a family of four

00:01:10 ◼   ► and that gets two pieces to everybody.

00:01:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:01:13 ◼   ► - So yeah, you slice it half halfsies

00:01:16 ◼   ► and then you slice it the other halfsies

00:01:17 ◼   ► and now you've got four giant unwieldy pieces of pizza.

00:01:21 ◼   ► And so then you slice it at a, you know, rotated a little,

00:01:24 ◼   ► you slice the halfsies again two more times

00:01:27 ◼   ► and you got eight pieces of pizza,

00:01:30 ◼   ► it's the right way to do it.

00:01:32 ◼   ► That's, I'm not gonna,

00:01:35 ◼   ► people will debate pineapple if we need to, but--

00:01:39 ◼   ► - There's no debate. - Somehow,

00:01:40 ◼   ► I feel like the judgment of John Syracuse

00:01:42 ◼   ► is hovering over me right now, it's very strange.

00:01:45 ◼   ► The, anyway, and I use a pizza cutter,

00:01:48 ◼   ► I use the Zyliss pizza cutter available on Amazon,

00:01:52 ◼   ► maybe we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:01:54 ◼   ► It is a weird thing where it's like a big stainless steel

00:01:59 ◼   ► circle cutting blade inside a plastic holder.

00:02:03 ◼   ► So it grips really well and is great for cutting pizza

00:02:07 ◼   ► or quesadillas or anything else that you might need

00:02:12 ◼   ► to cut in a radial fashion.

00:02:16 ◼   ► - I have a pizza cutter similar to this

00:02:18 ◼   ► made by a company called Joseph and Joseph.

00:02:20 ◼   ► And it looks kind of like yours.

00:02:22 ◼   ► It's like the wheel, but with the plastic thing, you can hold on the top and you can just wheel it along

00:02:27 ◼   ► and put your full force into it, which is the good thing, as opposed to the one that has the handle on it.

00:02:32 ◼   ► I feel like I'm able to put more force into the cutting of the pizza.

00:02:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:02:37 ◼   ► I prefer smaller slices of pizza, so I am on board with you with the eight slice rather than six slice, you know?

00:02:45 ◼   ► Although I should be-- I want to be clear here, because I've heard-- not you, but I've heard people say this, that

00:02:50 ◼   ► they think the slice is like the atom of pizza, but of course the slice scales with the size of

00:02:58 ◼   ► the pizza. If you cut eight pieces, eight slices out of a small pizza or a large pizza, the slices

00:03:04 ◼   ► change size, right? So when people say I prefer one piece or one slice, two slices or whatever,

00:03:10 ◼   ► like, well, you're gonna get a slice. So if you had an enormous, let me put it this way, if I had

00:03:16 ◼   ► had a pizza the size of my dining room table, I would probably cut it into more than eight.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Although at that point, that's why they do in Chicago, they do that party cut thing,

00:03:28 ◼   ► I'm sure Detroit and I'm sure there are other places that do this, where they cut it, they

00:03:32 ◼   ► give up. Beyond a certain point, they give up because the slices are going to be very

00:03:37 ◼   ► long and narrow, and so they start cutting them into squares essentially. But if you're

00:03:41 ◼   ► maintaining the fundamental dignity of a circular pizza, at some point it will, as it enlarges,

00:03:49 ◼   ► it will become unwieldy and that involves a lot of math involving pi, and not just the

00:03:53 ◼   ► pizza pie but the actual number of pi, and we're not going to get into that because this

00:03:57 ◼   ► is not a podcast about math.

00:03:59 ◼   ► Thankfully, because I'm bad at it. So, it wouldn't be a very good podcast, it wouldn't

00:04:04 ◼   ► be a very educational podcast because I'm not good at math.

00:04:08 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own, we have a new way for

00:04:12 ◼   ► you to do that.

00:04:13 ◼   ► But another way that you can do it is question mark Snell Talk in the Relay FM members discord.

00:04:17 ◼   ► You can send out a tweet with the hashtag Snell Talk, but let's talk about the brand

00:04:21 ◼   ► new way that you can send in feedback for the show.

00:04:25 ◼   ► So on the Relay FM website now for every show that is currently using this, we're developing

00:04:31 ◼   ► this tool, some shows are using it, some aren't, but hopefully over time more shows will be.

00:04:36 ◼   ► is a new button that says submit feedback and you can send it opens a form on our website

00:04:42 ◼   ► where you can write your thoughts comments send in your follow up whatever it is and

00:04:47 ◼   ► it goes into our system so we can read that before the beginning of every episode each

00:04:52 ◼   ► week and pick out what we want to talk about we actually kind of mentioned on the last

00:04:56 ◼   ► episode that it might be available and it did like I think on Tuesday so we actually

00:05:01 ◼   ► got quite a bit of feedback for this episode.

00:05:04 ◼   ► So there's some follow up I've got here.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And so I believe this Snow Talk question,

00:05:09 ◼   ► and I think all of today's Ask Upgrade questions

00:05:13 ◼   ► were submitted via the new feedback tool.

00:05:15 ◼   ► So it's in the link of the show notes for every episode.

00:05:18 ◼   ► But you can also go anytime to upgradefeedback.com

00:05:22 ◼   ► and it takes you to the form.

00:05:25 ◼   ► You gotta have URLs, man.

00:05:27 ◼   ► I'm all about it.

00:05:28 ◼   ► - I love it that you bought a domain for this.

00:05:30 ◼   ► That's a surprise, genuine surprise to me.

00:05:32 ◼   ► And I don't know why I should be surprised

00:05:34 ◼   ► that there's upgradefeedback.com.

00:05:36 ◼   ► Of course there is.

00:05:37 ◼   ► - I like new URLs.

00:05:38 ◼   ► I think that they help people remember things.

00:05:40 ◼   ► - Who needs slashes?

00:05:41 ◼   ► - No one wants slashes.

00:05:42 ◼   ► - You say a slash and you've already lost.

00:05:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, if it's a horror film, that's fine.

00:05:47 ◼   ► But otherwise, no slashes around here.

00:05:48 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:05:49 ◼   ► So we recommend that you use this now

00:05:53 ◼   ► for follow-up and ask upgrade and snow talk.

00:05:57 ◼   ► - Hey Myke, what if there was a top level domain

00:05:59 ◼   ► that was ./

00:06:00 ◼   ► Would that be confusing?

00:06:01 ◼   ► - I would love that actually.

00:06:02 ◼   ► I would buy a lot of those.

00:06:03 ◼   ► - HTTP colon slash slash, but not the word slash.

00:06:07 ◼   ► - Dot slash.

00:06:08 ◼   ► - Upgrade dot slash, but not the character slash,

00:06:10 ◼   ► the word slash.

00:06:12 ◼   ► Not the guitarist from Guns N' Roses slash.

00:06:14 ◼   ► Actually he could run it.

00:06:15 ◼   ► - We're getting off topic here, Jason.

00:06:16 ◼   ► - He could run the dot slash top level domain.

00:06:19 ◼   ► He could.

00:06:19 ◼   ► - We're gonna bring you in here, okay?

00:06:20 ◼   ► Come on.

00:06:21 ◼   ► - Guitarist dot slash.

00:06:23 ◼   ► - We're on focus here.

00:06:24 ◼   ► So you can use the new feedback tool

00:06:27 ◼   ► to send in anything that you want.

00:06:29 ◼   ► In the future, because we're developing this

00:06:31 ◼   ► as part of our CMS and website, in the future,

00:06:34 ◼   ► we're going to have probably a dropdown.

00:06:37 ◼   ► So you could say, this is Ask Upgrade.

00:06:39 ◼   ► This is Snowtalk.

00:06:40 ◼   ► People have been very kindly saying right now,

00:06:43 ◼   ► but you don't have to worry about it.

00:06:44 ◼   ► You can let us decide for the time being.

00:06:47 ◼   ► This is very much a 1.0 of this feature.

00:06:50 ◼   ► But going forward, this and the Discord

00:06:53 ◼   ► will be the best places to send feedback and questions.

00:06:56 ◼   ► I would say for the moment, at least,

00:06:58 ◼   ► this is the best way to send in follow-up

00:07:00 ◼   ► for the show, I think, for us.

00:07:03 ◼   ► So we'd really appreciate it if you used it.

00:07:05 ◼   ► And if you have any thoughts about the system,

00:07:08 ◼   ► also feel free to put those in a feedback for us.

00:07:13 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:07:14 ◼   ► - So thank you to everybody who has already tested out

00:07:17 ◼   ► the system and thank you to all of you that will use it.

00:07:20 ◼   ► We've been talking about this on and off,

00:07:21 ◼   ► but especially for me not being on Twitter anymore

00:07:25 ◼   ► and not using Mastodon, I wanna make sure

00:07:27 ◼   ► that we still have a good free way

00:07:29 ◼   ► for people to send in feedback to the show.

00:07:31 ◼   ► So we worked on this at "Real AFM" and here it is.

00:07:36 ◼   ► Jason, should we tell people

00:07:38 ◼   ► about the Upgrade Plus Challenge segment?

00:07:41 ◼   ► - I think we should just to clue them in

00:07:44 ◼   ► on what we're doing here.

00:07:45 ◼   ► And one is being undertaken even as we speak,

00:07:50 ◼   ► although you can't tell, I assure you it is.

00:07:54 ◼   ► So we have a new recurring segment on Upgrade Plus.

00:07:59 ◼   ► It starts this week and we'll probably do this at least once a month,

00:08:02 ◼   ► but maybe in an increasing frequency,

00:08:06 ◼   ► where we're going to pick a challenge that we will complete as part of Upgrade

00:08:11 ◼   ► Plus. Thanks to our innovative friends,

00:08:13 ◼   ► Dubai Friday and Reconcilable Differences for pioneering the

00:08:18 ◼   ► challenge format on podcast.

00:08:20 ◼   ► So the challenge for this week's episode was to use and is to use Freeform for our show notes planning.

00:08:28 ◼   ► So this came from a conversation that Jason and I had between the two of us, and you were saying that,

00:08:33 ◼   ► you know, you tried out Freeform and you weren't really sure how to use it,

00:08:37 ◼   ► and so you said, "What if we use this to plan an episode of the show?" So here we are.

00:08:42 ◼   ► Mac Power users just did this for their Freeform episode as well, which I listened to in preparation for this episode.

00:08:48 ◼   ► To be clear, we came up with this idea separate from MPU.

00:08:53 ◼   ► And in fact, when I mentioned to David Sparks

00:08:56 ◼   ► when I visited him that we were thinking of doing this,

00:08:58 ◼   ► he said, oh, we just did that.

00:09:01 ◼   ► So all right, fair enough.

00:09:03 ◼   ► But we're doing it now, this episode.

00:09:05 ◼   ► If it seems disorganized or especially extra

00:09:09 ◼   ► greatly organized, it's because we are

00:09:13 ◼   ► using a different tool for it.

00:09:14 ◼   ► and we'll report on our feelings about it

00:09:18 ◼   ► after the show is over at the end of Upgrade

00:09:21 ◼   ► in the Upgrade Plus segment for members.

00:09:24 ◼   ► So that's where it'll be.

00:09:25 ◼   ► And then what will happen after that.

00:09:27 ◼   ► Like I said, I think last week, listening

00:09:29 ◼   ► to your State of the Apps on Cortex,

00:09:33 ◼   ► I was thinking about how I need to get more out of my comfort

00:09:36 ◼   ► zone with stuff because I've got such a refined, let's say,

00:09:40 ◼   ► suite of tools that I use every day.

00:09:44 ◼   ► I like the idea of being pulled out of my comfort zone,

00:09:47 ◼   ► either by you challenging me or by me challenging myself,

00:09:51 ◼   ► but to do things differently or use different apps

00:09:54 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:09:55 ◼   ► So we don't know what form this will take.

00:09:57 ◼   ► We really don't, but we are starting it now

00:10:00 ◼   ► and it will not even be every week.

00:10:02 ◼   ► It will be an occasional recurring segment in Upgrade Plus,

00:10:05 ◼   ► but hopefully no less than one a month.

00:10:08 ◼   ► - Yep, it will be recurring.

00:10:10 ◼   ► Like this is the beginning of a new part of Upgrade Plus.

00:10:13 ◼   ► So we'll still be doing the typical things

00:10:14 ◼   ► where we bring up different types of content,

00:10:16 ◼   ► but this is gonna be like a structured thing

00:10:18 ◼   ► that we do every now and again.

00:10:19 ◼   ► If you want Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com.

00:10:22 ◼   ► That's another URL, Jason, that I got.

00:10:24 ◼   ► - I know, that one's been around.

00:10:25 ◼   ► That's not a surprise domain, though.

00:10:27 ◼   ► - Getupgradeplus.com.

00:10:29 ◼   ► You can sign up and we'll appreciate your support

00:10:31 ◼   ► and we hope you enjoy this additional content.

00:10:34 ◼   ► I have just a couple of pieces of follow-up

00:10:37 ◼   ► before we get on with, I think, a pretty packed show today.

00:10:41 ◼   ► There's been a lot. - I can't tell.

00:10:42 ◼   ► Is that, are we doing that based on the surface area

00:10:44 ◼   ► in free form? - Shush.

00:10:46 ◼   ► We're not talking about free form now.

00:10:48 ◼   ► - Okay, sorry. - Okay, none of that.

00:10:49 ◼   ► - Right, all right.

00:10:51 ◼   ► - Josh wrote in to let us know that titanium

00:10:53 ◼   ► can in fact be anodized.

00:10:55 ◼   ► We were talking about this on the last episode

00:10:56 ◼   ► and I was wondering if Apple moved to titanium,

00:10:59 ◼   ► would the colors have to change for the phones,

00:11:02 ◼   ► if they moved to titanium on the iPhone?

00:11:04 ◼   ► Apparently they can not only be anodized,

00:11:06 ◼   ► the colors can be quite vibrant.

00:11:08 ◼   ► So it seems like they can make that work for them

00:11:10 ◼   ► if they wanted to.

00:11:11 ◼   ► - And spoilers for our next segment,

00:11:13 ◼   ► but there's a rumor that that's what they're doing

00:11:15 ◼   ► is titanium for the iPhone Pro.

00:11:18 ◼   ► - And Apple's Q1 results are coming up every second

00:11:22 ◼   ► it has been announced.

00:11:24 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, that's gonna be, what a day that's gonna be.

00:11:27 ◼   ► - It's gonna be a bloodbath.

00:11:28 ◼   ► I can't wait, I'm really excited about it.

00:11:31 ◼   ► Like I always am, but yeah.

00:11:32 ◼   ► - I feel like with all the headlines

00:11:34 ◼   ► and with all the warnings, what Apple has done is,

00:11:37 ◼   ► we're gonna say that it's a bloodbath,

00:11:39 ◼   ► but in some ways the bloodbath has already happened

00:11:41 ◼   ► because everybody expects it to be bad.

00:11:43 ◼   ► And of course it's like Wall Street, sorry,

00:11:45 ◼   ► sorry, investors, Wall Street's like gambling

00:11:48 ◼   ► in the sense that it's all about like,

00:11:50 ◼   ► you get the information and you make your choices.

00:11:53 ◼   ► And so everybody on the street has heard all the bad news.

00:11:57 ◼   ► So the stock has gone down because they're like,

00:11:59 ◼   ► okay, well, bad news is coming.

00:12:00 ◼   ► They're anticipating the bad news.

00:12:02 ◼   ► So what that might mean is in February 2nd,

00:12:05 ◼   ► even though the numbers look bad,

00:12:07 ◼   ► Wall Street may react positively to it

00:12:10 ◼   ► because it might not be as bad as they thought it would be.

00:12:14 ◼   ► So that's gonna be even more interesting to see.

00:12:16 ◼   ► And how is Apple spinning what's happened in the month

00:12:20 ◼   ► since the end of the quarter, if they say,

00:12:23 ◼   ► "Look, by the end of December, we were back online

00:12:26 ◼   ► and things are going great."

00:12:27 ◼   ► And that would buoy the stock

00:12:29 ◼   ► and how Apple is viewed in the market.

00:12:30 ◼   ► So it's gonna be, I think,

00:12:32 ◼   ► the most interesting Apple results release in years, really.

00:12:37 ◼   ► So can't wait to see it.

00:12:38 ◼   ► - But as is typical for this show,

00:12:40 ◼   ► whatever Wall Street say we don't care about,

00:12:42 ◼   ► what we're intrigued in is how they tell this story.

00:12:46 ◼   ► Like how is Apple, when pushed, going to tell the story

00:12:51 ◼   ► of their terrible, horrible, no good quarter, right?

00:12:54 ◼   ► And so I'm fascinated.

00:12:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:12:57 ◼   ► And that is, I know that, I mean,

00:12:58 ◼   ► there are definitely people who invest in Apple

00:13:00 ◼   ► and care about Apple as a stock,

00:13:02 ◼   ► who read my stuff and listen to our podcasts,

00:13:05 ◼   ► and that's fine, but yes, I think it's important to say

00:13:08 ◼   ► that that's not the lens we use,

00:13:11 ◼   ► the stock price is not the lens we use

00:13:13 ◼   ► to discuss or evaluate the company.

00:13:16 ◼   ► We're much more concerned in sort of the products

00:13:18 ◼   ► and the business as a whole,

00:13:21 ◼   ► like how successful the products

00:13:23 ◼   ► and the other business things that Apple is doing

00:13:26 ◼   ► are how that's all going.

00:13:28 ◼   ► But it's not, we don't have Apple stock,

00:13:32 ◼   ► we're not Apple investors, that's not our focus,

00:13:34 ◼   ► just to be clear.

00:13:35 ◼   ► So the street will do what it will do.

00:13:36 ◼   ► But yes, it's gonna be fascinating to see

00:13:38 ◼   ► what the details are and how Apple explains itself, right?

00:13:43 ◼   ► Like this is Tim.

00:13:44 ◼   ► What's Tim say? - Explain yourself.

00:13:48 ◼   ► - Explain yourself, Tim.

00:13:49 ◼   ► - Yes, that's our first question.

00:13:52 ◼   ► Our first question comes from Myke Hurley of Real AFM.

00:13:54 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:13:56 ◼   ► - Explain yourself.

00:13:57 ◼   ► Tim Cook, explain yourself.

00:13:59 ◼   ► - This is Tim.

00:14:02 ◼   ► How'd you get on this call?

00:14:04 ◼   ► - We try our best to keep you away.

00:14:06 ◼   ► Yeah, you're not a financial analyst. You're the host of that podcast that was once behind me at WWDC. Get off the line!

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00:16:23 ◼   ► Jason, the horses have bolted out of the corral,

00:16:27 ◼   ► and they have run amok across the whole town,

00:16:30 ◼   ► making for an absolutely gargantuan-sized

00:16:34 ◼   ► rumor roundup today.

00:16:36 ◼   ► - It's true.

00:16:37 ◼   ► - So we've got a few areas to focus on.

00:16:41 ◼   ► One is like--

00:16:41 ◼   ► - Different pastures, different fields to go in

00:16:45 ◼   ► to bring the horses back in to round them back up.

00:16:47 ◼   ► Okay, got it, got it.

00:16:48 ◼   ► - So we're gonna go down to Germantown right now.

00:16:50 ◼   ► This is, I think, a pretty typical thing from Mark Gurman

00:16:54 ◼   ► at Bloomberg to have like a,

00:16:57 ◼   ► here is my thing for the year or whatever, right?

00:17:00 ◼   ► So like he'll come out and say like,

00:17:02 ◼   ► this is what I'm expecting.

00:17:03 ◼   ► And he maybe brings together some things

00:17:05 ◼   ► that he's been working on

00:17:06 ◼   ► or some like areas that he has been focusing on.

00:17:10 ◼   ► So get a few quotes we're gonna read, Jason,

00:17:12 ◼   ► we can talk about them.

00:17:14 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:17:15 ◼   ► - So just a few quotes from Mark.

00:17:15 ◼   ► "A larger iMac Pro has been on and off Apple's roadmap

00:17:18 ◼   ► and I would be surprised at this point

00:17:20 ◼   ► if it arrives in 2023.

00:17:22 ◼   ► I'm sure you're very sad about that.

00:17:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I have heard elsewhere that,

00:17:28 ◼   ► the same story basically, I've heard elsewhere that,

00:17:30 ◼   ► I don't wanna say my own sources,

00:17:33 ◼   ► but kind of my own sources that-

00:17:34 ◼   ► - Ooh, look at you, oh, hello.

00:17:37 ◼   ► Hang on, breaking news on the rumor roundup.

00:17:39 ◼   ► We have a new sheriff in town.

00:17:41 ◼   ► - I just wanna assert that it is also my understanding

00:17:45 ◼   ► that the larger iMac has been on and off,

00:17:50 ◼   ► that the existence of doing displays

00:17:52 ◼   ► seems to have been a little bit of a bargain

00:17:55 ◼   ► to not need to do a big iMac anymore

00:17:58 ◼   ► because the displays would cover that

00:18:00 ◼   ► and the Mac studio and all of that.

00:18:02 ◼   ► So anyway, I just wanna corroborate

00:18:05 ◼   ► what Mark is saying here.

00:18:06 ◼   ► Mark is saying it's been on and off,

00:18:07 ◼   ► which is actually more encouraging than what I heard,

00:18:09 ◼   ► which is that it's off.

00:18:10 ◼   ► But I think that this is the thing,

00:18:12 ◼   ► is they go back and forth about it.

00:18:13 ◼   ► I'm surprised because they sold that larger iMac for so long.

00:18:17 ◼   ► And the 24 is not the 27.

00:18:20 ◼   ► But maybe the answer is anybody who wants a bigger iMac

00:18:23 ◼   ► than the 24 should just get a studio display

00:18:25 ◼   ► and a Mac studio.

00:18:27 ◼   ► Thus far, that is essentially what they're saying.

00:18:29 ◼   ► Or a Mac studio and a Mac mini if you want.

00:18:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:33 ◼   ► Or sorry, Mac, a studio display, so many studios,

00:18:36 ◼   ► so many Macs, a studio display and whatever you want

00:18:39 ◼   ► to attach to it instead of a 27-inch iMac.

00:18:42 ◼   ► So that may not happen.

00:18:43 ◼   ► I'm also surprised at what he says about,

00:18:46 ◼   ► which you didn't mention,

00:18:48 ◼   ► but he continues to insist

00:18:51 ◼   ► that the iMac won't be updated until the M3,

00:18:54 ◼   ► which I'm just surprised

00:18:55 ◼   ► that they would just skip an entire chip generation

00:18:57 ◼   ► with the iMac.

00:18:58 ◼   ► It's their chips.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Is the iMac, Apple talks so much

00:19:02 ◼   ► about the iMac being the flagship of the Mac in many ways.

00:19:04 ◼   ► And it's used in so many cases,

00:19:06 ◼   ► and it's in hotels, and it's in classrooms,

00:19:08 ◼   ► and it's all these places.

00:19:10 ◼   ► And then for them to just sort of be like,

00:19:11 ◼   ► meh, we'll wait an extra chip cycle

00:19:16 ◼   ► before we even bother updating it.

00:19:18 ◼   ► I just, I'm surprised that the iMac seems to be so,

00:19:23 ◼   ► I don't know, I don't know whether it's lower priority

00:19:26 ◼   ► or whether maybe they just think it's good enough,

00:19:28 ◼   ► but I continue to be surprised

00:19:30 ◼   ► that they aren't more enthusiastic about it.

00:19:33 ◼   ► - I think we're too early on in Apple Silicon

00:19:36 ◼   ► to understand if this might be a typical thing

00:19:38 ◼   ► for a lot of products.

00:19:40 ◼   ► - Right, whether they just skip a generation.

00:19:42 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah, maybe so.

00:19:44 ◼   ► We don't know.

00:19:45 ◼   ► - On the Mac Pro, Apple plans to release a Mac Pro

00:19:48 ◼   ► with the M2 Ultra, making it unclear

00:19:51 ◼   ► beyond the machine's expandability

00:19:52 ◼   ► why most users will buy it over the cheaper

00:19:54 ◼   ► and smaller Mac Studio.

00:19:56 ◼   ► In another disappointment, the new Mac Pro

00:19:58 ◼   ► will look identical to the 2019 model.

00:20:01 ◼   ► It will also lack one key feature from the Intel version,

00:20:04 ◼   ► user upgradeable RAM.

00:20:06 ◼   ► That's because the memory is tied directly

00:20:08 ◼   ► to the M2 Ultra's motherboard.

00:20:10 ◼   ► Still, there are two SSD storage slots

00:20:13 ◼   ► and for graphics, media, and networking cards.

00:20:15 ◼   ► - This is information in the sense that it's saying,

00:20:20 ◼   ► here's what is upgradable in this thing.

00:20:23 ◼   ► They're gonna use the existing case,

00:20:25 ◼   ► which he says it's disappointing.

00:20:26 ◼   ► I mean, I guess that's Mark Gurman

00:20:29 ◼   ► putting his own little editorial spin on it.

00:20:31 ◼   ► Although I think there's an implication there

00:20:33 ◼   ► that they were investigating a smaller enclosure

00:20:35 ◼   ► and they've decided,

00:20:36 ◼   ► maybe this is one of those cost saving things, right?

00:20:38 ◼   ► That we heard the reports about how the Mac Pro,

00:20:42 ◼   ► they didn't wanna over-invest in it,

00:20:44 ◼   ► and so they weren't gonna do the quad core chip.

00:20:46 ◼   ► Well, using the existing enclosure

00:20:49 ◼   ► from the last Intel Mac Pro

00:20:51 ◼   ► would be another way to save money.

00:20:53 ◼   ► But within that, he's saying, look,

00:20:55 ◼   ► the memory is inextricably linked.

00:20:57 ◼   ► So the memory is gonna be on the chip packages,

00:21:00 ◼   ► and that's just how it's gonna be.

00:21:01 ◼   ► But he is saying expandable storage, expandable media,

00:21:06 ◼   ► media and networking and graphics cards.

00:21:09 ◼   ► So that's, it sounds to me like that's gonna be

00:21:12 ◼   ► the big change in the Mac Pro from previous

00:21:16 ◼   ► Apple Silicon Macs, right?

00:21:18 ◼   ► Is that they seem to have, I guess, done the work

00:21:21 ◼   ► to be able to use external graphics cards of some kind.

00:21:26 ◼   ► That's not a capability that Apple Silicon has had up to now.

00:21:29 ◼   ► It's all been the onboard GPUs.

00:21:32 ◼   ► But whether they're third-party graphics cards

00:21:34 ◼   ► or whether Apple has built its own custom GPU thing

00:21:39 ◼   ► that they do as an interconnect, and I don't know.

00:21:42 ◼   ► But I think this is actually kind of an encouraging report,

00:21:46 ◼   ► just in the sense that it's more upgradeable.

00:21:51 ◼   ► Yeah, more upgradeable than we maybe thought,

00:21:53 ◼   ► even though RAM is not a part of it.

00:21:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I will profess

00:21:58 ◼   ► to not understanding this enough,

00:22:00 ◼   ► but it is intriguing to me that they have seemingly done

00:22:04 ◼   ► the work to allow for graphics that are not part of the chip or part of the package. But

00:22:10 ◼   ► they haven't done that for RAM. They're obviously prioritizing. I actually think that's the

00:22:14 ◼   ► right priority. I think these days it's easier to maybe understand how much RAM you want

00:22:21 ◼   ► and you just get whatever you need. I think for people that want this particular type

00:22:25 ◼   ► of machine, I feel like graphics media and networking cards along with SSD storage solutions

00:22:31 ◼   ► or whatever could be interesting. I'm intrigued by SSD storage slots. Are they just doing M2?

00:22:40 ◼   ► Like the little guys that you plug in? Or are they going to be able to allow you to put

00:22:45 ◼   ► bigger hard drives in there? I don't know. But it doesn't matter. The point is,

00:22:49 ◼   ► it's going to be upgradeable. I am intrigued by what identical to the 2019 model means.

00:22:55 ◼   ► Like is it the same one or is it a smaller version of it? Because I really do wonder if it needs to

00:23:00 ◼   ► to be as physically large, but we'll find out I suppose.

00:23:03 ◼   ► - I think the answer based on Mark Gurman's report here

00:23:06 ◼   ► is that they're gonna use the existing case

00:23:10 ◼   ► whether you need it or not,

00:23:11 ◼   ► they're gonna use the existing case.

00:23:12 ◼   ► So it may be, it may seem awfully empty in there,

00:23:17 ◼   ► but you know, that seems to be

00:23:20 ◼   ► what's gonna be happening here.

00:23:21 ◼   ► So it's fascinating to me,

00:23:23 ◼   ► 'cause it does seem a little bit like they had big plans

00:23:25 ◼   ► and then they kind of scaled them back.

00:23:26 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:23:28 ◼   ► The 15 inch MacBook Air is still planned

00:23:30 ◼   ► for release this year.

00:23:32 ◼   ► We'd also spoken in the past on Rumor Roundup

00:23:34 ◼   ► about a 12 inch model that Apple are also looking at.

00:23:38 ◼   ► That is no longer on their near term roadmap,

00:23:40 ◼   ► which I think is probably the right thing.

00:23:42 ◼   ► - I'm disappointed, but at the same time,

00:23:44 ◼   ► I'm actually encouraged because I had kind of,

00:23:48 ◼   ► I keep wish casting and dreaming for a smaller laptop,

00:23:51 ◼   ► but I never really expected them to do it.

00:23:56 ◼   ► I wanted them to do it, but there's a difference,

00:23:57 ◼   ► I guess somewhere in there between wanting it

00:23:59 ◼   ► and thinking it'll actually happen.

00:24:01 ◼   ► And I always thought it was unlikely to happen.

00:24:03 ◼   ► So even though it's no longer on their near-term roadmap,

00:24:05 ◼   ► I'm fascinated that it was,

00:24:07 ◼   ► and that it's still kind of bubbling out there

00:24:09 ◼   ► as something they might do in the future,

00:24:11 ◼   ► that the 13-inch Air might not be the smallest Mac laptop

00:24:16 ◼   ► available at some point in the future.

00:24:17 ◼   ► But for the near-term, it's that larger Air,

00:24:19 ◼   ► which we talked about several times on the show

00:24:22 ◼   ► as being a nice way for people to get a larger display

00:24:25 ◼   ► without having to spend two grand on a MacBook Pro.

00:24:29 ◼   ► - Apple has been working on larger iPads,

00:24:32 ◼   ► but I'm told not to expect those this year.

00:24:35 ◼   ► - Who's telling you?

00:24:37 ◼   ► The people, I guess.

00:24:38 ◼   ► - The people, yeah, the people.

00:24:39 ◼   ► - People are telling you, don't expect those.

00:24:41 ◼   ► This year, yeah, so this is my prediction about

00:24:43 ◼   ► that they were gonna do a larger iPad.

00:24:47 ◼   ► And he says, "No, not this year, it's not gonna happen."

00:24:50 ◼   ► Which means it's gonna be a real quiet year for the iPad.

00:24:53 ◼   ► I thought that the larger iPad might be the only thing

00:24:55 ◼   ► that they did this year, but it sounds like

00:24:57 ◼   ► they're not even gonna do that this year.

00:24:59 ◼   ► - The return of the larger HomePod size

00:25:01 ◼   ► is still set for this year, but I wouldn't expect

00:25:04 ◼   ► anything revolutionary about it.

00:25:05 ◼   ► Then what's the point?

00:25:07 ◼   ► What's the point?

00:25:08 ◼   ► Unless, okay, if they bring back a bigger one,

00:25:11 ◼   ► but it's like $200, right?

00:25:14 ◼   ► - Right.

00:25:15 ◼   ► - Maybe fine, right?

00:25:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's the point is that it's gonna sound better

00:25:19 ◼   ► than the HomePod Mini.

00:25:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, but if it still costs $400, then there's no point.

00:25:23 ◼   ► - No, no, well, of course it won't.

00:25:25 ◼   ► I think that's the example is it's gonna be

00:25:27 ◼   ► a big HomePod mini.

00:25:28 ◼   ► It's going to be maybe the size of that HomePod

00:25:32 ◼   ► that was the original model,

00:25:33 ◼   ► but it's gonna be, again, sort of scaled down

00:25:36 ◼   ► in terms of what's in it,

00:25:38 ◼   ► all the different speakers and stuff, right?

00:25:40 ◼   ► It's gonna be more like a scaled up HomePod mini,

00:25:43 ◼   ► which I think is fine.

00:25:44 ◼   ► I think that's the right thing.

00:25:46 ◼   ► And then if the HomePod mini is 99 or whatever,

00:25:48 ◼   ► then you do it at 199 for the larger one

00:25:51 ◼   ► that's got some more speakers and sounds better.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Because the HomePod mini is nice,

00:25:57 ◼   ► but it does not sound as good as the HomePod,

00:25:59 ◼   ► and there's room there.

00:26:00 ◼   ► Even if it doesn't sound as good as the original HomePod,

00:26:03 ◼   ► there's room for it to sound better than it does,

00:26:05 ◼   ► and to get a bigger model in there.

00:26:07 ◼   ► So I think that's fine.

00:26:09 ◼   ► - Mark referenced that devices like the Apple Watch

00:26:13 ◼   ► are gonna probably see a pretty quiet year,

00:26:16 ◼   ► but did reference that quote,

00:26:18 ◼   ► "The iPhone hardware could be impressive.

00:26:21 ◼   ► "I am told to expect the same screen sizes

00:26:23 ◼   ► "as the iPhone 14 family,

00:26:25 ◼   ► "but the dynamic island will expand to all four models,"

00:26:27 ◼   ► as Jason called out.

00:26:29 ◼   ► "A titanium frame replaces stainless steel on the Pro,

00:26:32 ◼   ► "and there will be haptic volume buttons,"

00:26:34 ◼   ► that means not real buttons,

00:26:36 ◼   ► "the iPhone will also switch to USB-C and faster processors."

00:26:41 ◼   ► - Right, now I just wanted to caution people,

00:26:43 ◼   ► although Myke in an earlier segment here

00:26:45 ◼   ► said that titanium can be anodized

00:26:47 ◼   ► and in fact can come in bright colors.

00:26:49 ◼   ► - I mean, so on the pro,

00:26:50 ◼   ► it's not gonna be in bright colors.

00:26:51 ◼   ► I mean, it's just gonna--

00:26:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, do not expect that to happen.

00:26:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:54 ◼   ► Instead, expect it-- - I might still get my gold.

00:26:56 ◼   ► It's all I want. - Yes.

00:26:58 ◼   ► And then there'll be your midnight tree bark

00:27:03 ◼   ► and your evening, I don't even know,

00:27:06 ◼   ► evening leaves and your something like that.

00:27:11 ◼   ► Or yeah, yeah, like the dark rainbow on campus at night.

00:27:16 ◼   ► or like your 3 a.m.

00:27:19 ◼   ► gray whale.

00:27:22 ◼   ► - Perfect. - I don't know.

00:27:23 ◼   ► Like it will be the same unimpressive color scheme

00:27:28 ◼   ► even though titanium can withstand more than that.

00:27:31 ◼   ► But titanium can make it lighter.

00:27:33 ◼   ► That phone could be lighter.

00:27:34 ◼   ► That iPhone Pro could really stand to be lighter.

00:27:37 ◼   ► So that's good.

00:27:38 ◼   ► - But all of this is like table dressing, really,

00:27:43 ◼   ► for the bigger thing,

00:27:44 ◼   ► which we all know is coming this year,

00:27:45 ◼   ► which is the headset.

00:27:47 ◼   ► And Mark mentions, so like leading into that,

00:27:50 ◼   ► Apple's focus on the, he calls it XR OS operating system.

00:27:55 ◼   ► I hope it's not that.

00:27:57 ◼   ► I mean, it's just Xross, I guess we'll call it

00:28:00 ◼   ► in that instance, the Xross operating system.

00:28:04 ◼   ► - XR OS, like TV OS, we already do it.

00:28:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, but XR sounds horrible.

00:28:09 ◼   ► If it was AR OS, that would be better, or VR OS.

00:28:12 ◼   ► but no one's gonna call it XR, right?

00:28:15 ◼   ► Like we're not gonna call it that.

00:28:17 ◼   ► - They are.

00:28:18 ◼   ► - You think that Apple will call it XR?

00:28:21 ◼   ► - If Apple calls it that, then all of us will go along.

00:28:23 ◼   ► Yeah, sure. - 10R?

00:28:24 ◼   ► 10ROS.

00:28:27 ◼   ► - 10ROS, okay. - Now, I genuinely don't think

00:28:29 ◼   ► Apple's gonna call their device an XR device.

00:28:33 ◼   ► They might call it a mixed reality device,

00:28:35 ◼   ► but I don't think they're gonna refer to it as XR.

00:28:38 ◼   ► That's my, like that is what people call mixed reality.

00:28:42 ◼   ► Some people do call it Emma, which I hope that they would be more likely to call it

00:28:46 ◼   ► an XR.

00:28:47 ◼   ► Well, it's a marketing decision, ultimately.

00:28:51 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:28:53 ◼   ► So along with the focus on this operating system, along with iOS 16 snags, has also

00:28:59 ◼   ► cost some new features in iOS 17 and iPadOS 17, the same goes for Mac OS 14.

00:29:05 ◼   ► So they're going all in on this thing, which makes sense to me.

00:29:09 ◼   ► Like I think there will be stuff coming out this year, there will be new things, of course,

00:29:14 ◼   ► but I'm expecting the overall focus of 2023 will be the headset and the operating system.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And you know, as we've been talking about before, that's going to start at some point

00:29:25 ◼   ► in the spring and it's going to hit every single time Apple's got something to say this

00:29:29 ◼   ► year, they're going to be talking about this in some way.

00:29:33 ◼   ► And it's already been happening, right?

00:29:35 ◼   ► Because they've already been working on this.

00:29:36 ◼   ► This is the, when we think about how like,

00:29:39 ◼   ► oh, the Mac needs to get attention, but if it does,

00:29:42 ◼   ► it's gotta take attention away from the iPhone and the iPad

00:29:44 ◼   ► and the iPhone needs to get its share

00:29:46 ◼   ► because it's the biggest product,

00:29:47 ◼   ► but then you can't ignore the iPad and all that.

00:29:49 ◼   ► What's been going on for, you know,

00:29:52 ◼   ► over the last several years, but it's been increasing.

00:29:54 ◼   ► And especially in the last year, I'd imagine,

00:29:56 ◼   ► is this product that's beneath the surface still,

00:30:00 ◼   ► but there's huge amounts of work going on on this product.

00:30:04 ◼   ► So that's gonna obviously continue

00:30:07 ◼   ► 'cause then they're gonna get it out there

00:30:08 ◼   ► and it's gonna be pre 1.0

00:30:10 ◼   ► and there's gonna be all that work

00:30:11 ◼   ► that needs to be done to it.

00:30:12 ◼   ► And when we finally see it, we're gonna be like,

00:30:14 ◼   ► oh, it doesn't do this, doesn't do this, it doesn't do this.

00:30:16 ◼   ► And Apple's gonna have to scramble.

00:30:17 ◼   ► Remember the early Apple Watch days

00:30:19 ◼   ► when sort of like their app approach wasn't quite right

00:30:23 ◼   ► and the hardware wasn't quite there

00:30:24 ◼   ► and they had to do a lot of work on it.

00:30:27 ◼   ► And Apple thinks that this is a strategic product for them.

00:30:30 ◼   ► So Apple is gonna be and is already distracted

00:30:35 ◼   ► and is moving resources to this thing.

00:30:38 ◼   ► And that's how it should be.

00:30:39 ◼   ► - This is how you gotta do it.

00:30:40 ◼   ► If you mean it, you gotta do it.

00:30:41 ◼   ► - If you mean it, yeah, you do.

00:30:43 ◼   ► Otherwise it's just a hobby.

00:30:44 ◼   ► It's, you know, and this is not a hobby.

00:30:47 ◼   ► - Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple has already

00:30:50 ◼   ► shared the device of a small number of high profile

00:30:53 ◼   ► software developers for testing and letting them

00:30:55 ◼   ► get started on third party apps for demos.

00:30:58 ◼   ► the company is aiming to unveil it this spring

00:31:01 ◼   ► ahead of the WWDC conference in June.

00:31:04 ◼   ► This makes all of this is making sense to me,

00:31:06 ◼   ► like especially if they're sharing it with people now,

00:31:10 ◼   ► these people have got eight weeks, right?

00:31:12 ◼   ► Like that's the goal, right?

00:31:14 ◼   ► - Those are the people who are demoing at the launch event

00:31:17 ◼   ► and then they will promise at the launch event

00:31:19 ◼   ► more details about it for third-party development in June

00:31:25 ◼   ► at WWDC, right?

00:31:26 ◼   ► That'll be how it goes and the SDK will come out then.

00:31:30 ◼   ► - And I think this is super smart, right?

00:31:32 ◼   ► Because then companies that wanna do it

00:31:34 ◼   ► or developers that are interested in it,

00:31:36 ◼   ► you've then got like three months to start whiteboarding,

00:31:38 ◼   ► thinking, like brainstorming, like what could we do

00:31:42 ◼   ► without seeing the stuff, right?

00:31:44 ◼   ► So you start thinking big picture,

00:31:46 ◼   ► then you get the development kit

00:31:47 ◼   ► and then you can start seeing

00:31:49 ◼   ► what you can bring to life a bit, right?

00:31:50 ◼   ► Like that, this all, this is the playbook, right?

00:31:53 ◼   ► We've been talking about this for ages.

00:31:54 ◼   ► This is the "We have a new thing" playbook.

00:31:57 ◼   ► They did it with the iPhone, they did it with the Apple Watch.

00:32:02 ◼   ► I don't know if they did it with the iPad, I don't remember the timeline.

00:32:05 ◼   ► Like, I don't think it was as far in advance, right, from announcement to release.

00:32:12 ◼   ► I think it was a shorter period of time.

00:32:14 ◼   ► But still, time.

00:32:16 ◼   ► So more from Mark Gurman.

00:32:17 ◼   ► "With the current plan, Apple could introduce the device to consumers, likely under the

00:32:21 ◼   ► the name Reality Pro and then get developers up to speed on its software features in June.

00:32:27 ◼   ► On this timeline, the company would then ship the product later in the fall of 2023.

00:32:31 ◼   ► They're going to call it Apple Reality Pro, right?

00:32:34 ◼   ► It's not just going to be Reality Pro, right?

00:32:36 ◼   ► Like, sure.

00:32:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:38 ◼   ► Right?

00:32:39 ◼   ► We're in agreement on that?

00:32:40 ◼   ► Like, I just think that's just what he said, but I don't think that's the name.

00:32:43 ◼   ► Apple is branded on everything now.

00:32:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:47 ◼   ► And Apple Reality, by the way, is a device name I'm kind of fine with.

00:32:51 ◼   ► I don't know if my feelings on this have changed or not over time, but Apple Reality Pro is like a perfectly okay name for me.

00:32:59 ◼   ► Yeah, it's it's what

00:33:02 ◼   ► Apple is doing now with names right? It is the most obvious

00:33:07 ◼   ► generic name with Apple in front of it. Yeah, and this is my favorite quote

00:33:15 ◼   ► Maybe ever. I love this so much. Alright?

00:33:18 ◼   ► While Apple still has many kinks to work out with the device,

00:33:21 ◼   ► involving hardware, software and services, as well as how it will be marketed and sold,

00:33:25 ◼   ► the company is banking on the product as its hot new introduction for this year.

00:33:29 ◼   ► So, other than the hardware, software, services, marketing and the way it's sold,

00:33:38 ◼   ► it's ready to go.

00:33:41 ◼   ► It's all ready to go.

00:33:42 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:33:44 ◼   ► He's ready to go.

00:33:45 ◼   ► - Woo.

00:33:48 ◼   ► - It's incredible.

00:33:49 ◼   ► Like Mark Gurman, we are such big fans of you on this show.

00:33:53 ◼   ► You know that, right?

00:33:54 ◼   ► You know that.

00:33:55 ◼   ► This is bananas what you have said here, right?

00:33:58 ◼   ► Like, oh, aside from everything, they're ready.

00:34:01 ◼   ► - Well, I think that, I mean, not to speak for Mark,

00:34:05 ◼   ► but my guess is that that is the strong implication

00:34:07 ◼   ► when he wrote this sentence,

00:34:09 ◼   ► he was very much trying to get across.

00:34:11 ◼   ► - They're not ready.

00:34:12 ◼   ► or like the people that he's talking to are like,

00:34:14 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:34:16 ◼   ► There are parts of this, right?

00:34:17 ◼   ► Marketing and how it's gonna be solved,

00:34:19 ◼   ► they have nine months at least from now to work that out.

00:34:23 ◼   ► And so like, sure.

00:34:24 ◼   ► Hardware, software and services,

00:34:27 ◼   ► at least one of those three has to be at a state

00:34:29 ◼   ► where they're ready to start talking about it

00:34:32 ◼   ► or like to say they've got a plan,

00:34:33 ◼   ► especially the hardware, right?

00:34:35 ◼   ► - Right.

00:34:36 ◼   ► I do think that maybe there are some questions about,

00:34:40 ◼   ► Yeah, hardware, it seems a lot,

00:34:42 ◼   ► I mean, if they're not gonna ship it until the fall though,

00:34:44 ◼   ► they're just gonna have samples.

00:34:45 ◼   ► They may be able to make changes, but yeah,

00:34:48 ◼   ► software, I could see them being like,

00:34:50 ◼   ► their features were gonna drop out of initial release

00:34:53 ◼   ► 'cause we just can't get there.

00:34:54 ◼   ► Keep in mind, this is a lot harder of a problem

00:34:59 ◼   ► than the iPhone in the sense that the iPhone launched

00:35:02 ◼   ► without a software developer kit for third parties, right?

00:35:06 ◼   ► But it was so successful when they introduced it

00:35:08 ◼   ► that now everything has to ship

00:35:09 ◼   ► with a software development kit, which makes sense

00:35:11 ◼   ► 'cause it makes the products more interesting.

00:35:13 ◼   ► But it means that they gotta, when they do this,

00:35:17 ◼   ► they do have to have a developer story.

00:35:19 ◼   ► And that's extra complexity.

00:35:20 ◼   ► And that, you frustrate the developers

00:35:22 ◼   ► if you keep messing around with the software

00:35:24 ◼   ► 'cause they need to rely on it.

00:35:26 ◼   ► So yeah, this is,

00:35:29 ◼   ► it's gonna be really interesting to watch

00:35:32 ◼   ► and see what's going on here.

00:35:34 ◼   ► It does feel like maybe this is just

00:35:37 ◼   ► function of it being around so long and being delayed that Mark Gurman has more information

00:35:43 ◼   ► about it and more people have more information about it and that because it's been delayed

00:35:46 ◼   ► and because there have been changes, we are seeing into the development in a way that

00:35:52 ◼   ► maybe we might not have otherwise. But it sure sounds like a product that is not focused

00:36:01 ◼   ► and not ready, and yet they seem to be saying that, you know, it's coming.

00:36:09 ◼   ► Not ready or not, but that like, they keep delaying it, and now they think they probably

00:36:14 ◼   ► will get to it in time, but again, they're still working on it, it seems, from this report.

00:36:18 ◼   ► That's pretty wild.

00:36:19 ◼   ► But I'd see, the thing that I'm struggling with this is, if the hardware has been delayed

00:36:23 ◼   ► multiple times, how are they still struggling with the software and services part?

00:36:28 ◼   ► Because in theory, the software and services had to be ready for the hardware.

00:36:32 ◼   ► So the hardware's been delayed, right?

00:36:33 ◼   ► Well, the hardware being delayed is not the way to phrase it, I think.

00:36:37 ◼   ► Think of it as the product has been delayed.

00:36:38 ◼   ► The hardware could be ready.

00:36:40 ◼   ► It's probably not.

00:36:41 ◼   ► But they could have finished the hardware a year ago and said, "We're ready to ship

00:36:44 ◼   ► this."

00:36:45 ◼   ► And they would have to delay the hardware, so to speak, anyway, if the software's not

00:36:49 ◼   ► ready.

00:36:50 ◼   ► So the product's not ready is the best way to look at this.

00:36:52 ◼   ► The product has been delayed.

00:36:54 ◼   ► And why has it been delayed?

00:36:56 ◼   ► Is it the hardware?

00:36:57 ◼   ► Is it the software?

00:36:58 ◼   ► at the services, answer's probably yes, right?

00:37:02 ◼   ► But it's probably all of those things.

00:37:04 ◼   ► I don't think it's just the hardware necessarily.

00:37:07 ◼   ► Although, I mean, to your point,

00:37:09 ◼   ► if it was just the hardware,

00:37:10 ◼   ► then they wouldn't say the software is still in flux, right?

00:37:14 ◼   ► Other than if the software has to be in flux

00:37:16 ◼   ► because they keep changing the hardware,

00:37:17 ◼   ► which is a possibility.

00:37:19 ◼   ► - That makes more sense to me.

00:37:20 ◼   ► - Could be.

00:37:21 ◼   ► - The information also had another big report about this

00:37:24 ◼   ► with a bunch of details that we've not heard about

00:37:28 ◼   ► before. So there's a lot of little hardware tidbits. So one of them is that

00:37:32 ◼   ► you know so you've got the the screens that go on your face attached to your

00:37:36 ◼   ► head with a headband right. So the headband is said to have speakers built

00:37:40 ◼   ► into it. This is very normal for other types of VR headsets. So you know you can

00:37:46 ◼   ► put it on and you can hear and they're kind of like fire interiors or whatever.

00:37:50 ◼   ► But speakers are speakers and if they're going to be like actual speakers not

00:37:54 ◼   ► anything like bone conduction or whatever,

00:37:56 ◼   ► it would be audible to people that are around you.

00:37:59 ◼   ► They would be able to hear.

00:38:00 ◼   ► So if you're sitting next to someone

00:38:01 ◼   ► and you're using the Apple Reality Pro,

00:38:04 ◼   ► they're gonna be able to hear what you're doing.

00:38:06 ◼   ► So the information references that AirPods

00:38:09 ◼   ► could be required for some use cases.

00:38:11 ◼   ► - Like communication, they said,

00:38:13 ◼   ► like if you wanna have a private communication,

00:38:15 ◼   ► although one side of the communication

00:38:17 ◼   ► is gonna be audible in the room anyway, right?

00:38:18 ◼   ► 'Cause you're gonna be talking.

00:38:20 ◼   ► But it is true that like they sound,

00:38:22 ◼   ► Like on my quest, on my quest too,

00:38:25 ◼   ► it sounds really good even when I'm not wearing a headset,

00:38:29 ◼   ► but when I'm not wearing headphones.

00:38:32 ◼   ► But you know, if I'm playing ping pong,

00:38:35 ◼   ► my wife can tell that I'm playing ping pong, right?

00:38:38 ◼   ► She's in the other room and it's,

00:38:39 ◼   ► (mimics ping pong)

00:38:40 ◼   ► Right, like it's ping pong, it's happening.

00:38:43 ◼   ► There's table tennis, ping sounds going off.

00:38:46 ◼   ► And like, so you probably want headphones,

00:38:49 ◼   ► just because if there's, if other people are around,

00:38:52 ◼   ► especially, plus it's gonna shut out the outside world

00:38:55 ◼   ► a little bit. - Yeah.

00:38:56 ◼   ► But I bet those speakers in Headband

00:38:58 ◼   ► will have like spatial audio and stuff.

00:38:59 ◼   ► I bet they'll sound really good.

00:39:01 ◼   ► - I'm sure they will.

00:39:03 ◼   ► It's funny that this report is sort of like,

00:39:05 ◼   ► well, the AirPods 2 is gonna be like the--

00:39:10 ◼   ► - The best one. - Required in some use cases

00:39:12 ◼   ► or AirPods-- - Yeah, I don't really like

00:39:15 ◼   ► the way it's written, 'cause I think it can be easily taken

00:39:19 ◼   ► that that means, oh, the Apple are gonna mean

00:39:21 ◼   ► you have to have them.

00:39:23 ◼   ► But it's like, no, I just think it means practically.

00:39:26 ◼   ► From a practicality standpoint,

00:39:28 ◼   ► you're gonna want headphones, right?

00:39:32 ◼   ► But the issue is then, is apparently

00:39:34 ◼   ► that the only headphones, this is the catch,

00:39:37 ◼   ► the only headphones that will work with this headset

00:39:40 ◼   ► apparently would be AirPods Pro 2.

00:39:42 ◼   ► And that is part of the,

00:39:45 ◼   ► you know, we've been talking about this before,

00:39:47 ◼   ► like some of the stuff that Apple mentioned

00:39:48 ◼   ► about the frequencies and how it's got

00:39:51 ◼   ► like a wider, what was the phrasing that they used?

00:39:54 ◼   ► - Oh, like capable of more bandwidth

00:39:56 ◼   ► or something like that. - Yeah.

00:39:57 ◼   ► That apparently, that was for the headset.

00:40:00 ◼   ► So these would be the only headphones

00:40:04 ◼   ► that would work at all,

00:40:06 ◼   ► and then anything that has the H2 chip in from this point.

00:40:09 ◼   ► They're obviously not gonna have a headphone jack

00:40:11 ◼   ► on this device, and you would probably want

00:40:14 ◼   ► small in-ears anyway, because it's easier

00:40:17 ◼   ► for the fact that you've got a big strap

00:40:18 ◼   ► around your head, right?

00:40:20 ◼   ► We haven't talked about the price yet,

00:40:22 ◼   ► but I will just say,

00:40:24 ◼   ► if the information's report on the price is true,

00:40:28 ◼   ► which I am very much skeptical of,

00:40:31 ◼   ► but if it is true, all I'll say is,

00:40:34 ◼   ► AirPods Pro 2 should come in the box, if that's the price.

00:40:38 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughs)

00:40:40 ◼   ► - Right, like if you're gonna require

00:40:42 ◼   ► for truly immersive whatever, AirPods Pro,

00:40:46 ◼   ► and the product costs a large amount of money,

00:40:49 ◼   ► They just need to be in the box, that's it.

00:40:53 ◼   ► - I actually agree with you on this one.

00:40:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that that would be not just a courtesy,

00:40:59 ◼   ► but like that should be the way that this thing works

00:41:02 ◼   ► as it comes to them.

00:41:03 ◼   ► Do I think they will do this?

00:41:04 ◼   ► Absolutely not, but they should.

00:41:06 ◼   ► And we'll talk about it when it happens, right?

00:41:09 ◼   ► - I'm actually a little surprised

00:41:10 ◼   ► that they aren't using headphones or AirPods Max

00:41:15 ◼   ► or AirPods Pro in a more integrated way,

00:41:19 ◼   ► at least as a possibility here with transparency.

00:41:23 ◼   ► 'Cause the reason you don't wanna cover people's ears

00:41:27 ◼   ► is because they might need to interact with people

00:41:29 ◼   ► in the real world, but there's transparency.

00:41:31 ◼   ► So you could make it that you put this thing on

00:41:34 ◼   ► and it's got headphones, right?

00:41:35 ◼   ► You could just do that where it's playing.

00:41:37 ◼   ► You don't, it's playing right into yours.

00:41:39 ◼   ► You put the headphones in or the act of putting it on

00:41:42 ◼   ► also puts headphones on you.

00:41:44 ◼   ► I know that there are a lot of ergonomic reasons

00:41:46 ◼   ► you might not wanna do that, but I'm a little surprised

00:41:48 ◼   ► 'cause like transparency, that's the whole idea.

00:41:50 ◼   ► But yes, if it's gonna be very expensive

00:41:52 ◼   ► and for best use you're gonna need

00:41:55 ◼   ► to put something in your ears or over your ears,

00:41:58 ◼   ► should be in the box.

00:42:02 ◼   ► - From the information, a special alternate headband

00:42:06 ◼   ► will be available for developers,

00:42:08 ◼   ► likely allowing for the device to be hooked up

00:42:10 ◼   ► to a Mac for development.

00:42:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is the developer kit thing

00:42:14 ◼   ► and it totally makes sense, right?

00:42:16 ◼   ► that there needs to be a way to hook this thing up to a Mac directly so that you can

00:42:21 ◼   ► be running your code on the Mac and debugging it while using the headset, which is bananas,

00:42:27 ◼   ► but that's like that's how VR development works.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Yeah, this is not a special alternate headband. This is a developer kit, right? Like you can

00:42:34 ◼   ► it's not like you get a headband and then buy your thing and no, they will send you

00:42:37 ◼   ► the whole thing. You'll pay them a lot of money for the privilege and it will come with

00:42:41 ◼   ► a headband that has a cable attached to it, right? You know what I mean?

00:42:45 ◼   ► a detail. I'm not confident in either one, whether developers will be able to get it

00:42:50 ◼   ► with the headband and that'll be all part of it, or whether they'll say, "Go get this

00:42:54 ◼   ► product and then we'll… you can separately buy a headband and attach it," whatever.

00:42:58 ◼   ► Well, the report also says that the idea for user-swappable headbands has been removed

00:43:04 ◼   ► from the product, so you wouldn't be able to do that.

00:43:07 ◼   ► Right. But it says that the developers will have a swappable headband, so I think that

00:43:12 ◼   ► the jury is out about whether the, it's not important,

00:43:15 ◼   ► but like developers will be able to get a thing

00:43:17 ◼   ► where they can tether.

00:43:18 ◼   ► However, the details, details don't matter.

00:43:21 ◼   ► They'll be able to get that.

00:43:22 ◼   ► And that'll be for developers.

00:43:23 ◼   ► And, and that's it.

00:43:25 ◼   ► It's not going to be one of these things where it's like,

00:43:26 ◼   ► or you can hook it up to a Mac and play real games.

00:43:30 ◼   ► It's like, that's not the point of it.

00:43:32 ◼   ► The point is the tethering is just going to be

00:43:34 ◼   ► for developers.

00:43:35 ◼   ► - As of last year,

00:43:36 ◼   ► the headset used an external battery pack tethered by cable,

00:43:40 ◼   ► as opposed to a battery integrated into the headband.

00:43:43 ◼   ► The design choice has been controversial

00:43:45 ◼   ► among Apple's engineers,

00:43:46 ◼   ► given the company's preference for cable-free designs.

00:43:49 ◼   ► I am on Team Battery Pack.

00:43:53 ◼   ► - I can't see, okay, I can't see this product

00:43:58 ◼   ► having a mandatory external battery that you have to wear.

00:44:02 ◼   ► I can't see it.

00:44:05 ◼   ► - Well, I agree.

00:44:06 ◼   ► I can't see that it will happen,

00:44:08 ◼   ► but I think they should do it

00:44:09 ◼   ► because then it will be lighter on your head.

00:44:12 ◼   ► Like that's the goal. - So yes, yes,

00:44:15 ◼   ► but it means that to get into it,

00:44:17 ◼   ► you've gotta equip even more.

00:44:19 ◼   ► And that equipping phase is no fun.

00:44:21 ◼   ► - You're already so in at the point

00:44:23 ◼   ► where you're like putting this thing on your face,

00:44:25 ◼   ► putting the earphones in your ears.

00:44:28 ◼   ► - It's different having a cable snaking away from your body

00:44:30 ◼   ► and going somewhere that can get snagged

00:44:32 ◼   ► or can be tense or all of that.

00:44:33 ◼   ► So what I'm gonna say is, 'cause I'm not finished, right?

00:44:38 ◼   ► The idea that to get good battery life,

00:44:43 ◼   ► you need to attach a thing and they will sell you a thing

00:44:46 ◼   ► or it comes with a thing to get good battery life.

00:44:50 ◼   ► I'm okay with that idea.

00:44:52 ◼   ► But the idea that this thing when it's in use

00:44:56 ◼   ► always has a cable snaking from it

00:44:59 ◼   ► to somewhere else on your body where there's a battery pack.

00:45:02 ◼   ► Like yuck, yuck.

00:45:07 ◼   ► - $3,000 price tag is still expected from the information.

00:45:11 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:45:11 ◼   ► Okay, let me stop you there.

00:45:14 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:45:17 ◼   ► $3,000 price tag.

00:45:22 ◼   ► I believe that the technology in this thing

00:45:28 ◼   ► might mean that that price is justified,

00:45:35 ◼   ► but I can't envision them selling,

00:45:37 ◼   ► even if they put pro on it,

00:45:39 ◼   ► I can't envision them selling enough $3,000 plus headsets

00:45:44 ◼   ► to make an audience large enough

00:45:50 ◼   ► to justify any app development for it.

00:45:52 ◼   ► That $3,000 sounds like a developer kit,

00:45:56 ◼   ► a developer preview of something

00:45:58 ◼   ► that will be eventually available

00:46:00 ◼   ► in a consumer friendly product down the road

00:46:03 ◼   ► so that developers can start working now

00:46:05 ◼   ► on the Reality Pro so that they're ready

00:46:08 ◼   ► when reality comes out, Apple reality for way cheaper.

00:46:12 ◼   ► I mean, I thought the $2,000 plus

00:46:15 ◼   ► was a ridiculous price point.

00:46:16 ◼   ► $3,000 plus is what's above that.

00:46:19 ◼   ► Ludicrous?

00:46:20 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:46:25 ◼   ► I don't know what to do with this report

00:46:26 ◼   ► because I said, I think last week,

00:46:28 ◼   ► I am strongly of the belief that Apple

00:46:31 ◼   ► basically needs to eat its profit margins

00:46:33 ◼   ► on this product when it comes out.

00:46:35 ◼   ► So that, and whether break even or lose money or whatever, but like, they

00:46:39 ◼   ► need to get some volume going for the developers to build for their new

00:46:43 ◼   ► platform.

00:46:43 ◼   ► And if Apple is going to sell this thing for $3,000, like who's it for?

00:46:47 ◼   ► Corporations and very, very rich people as a toy.

00:46:51 ◼   ► Well, I mean, that's great.

00:46:52 ◼   ► You'll make a profit on the few that you sell, but, um, who's going to develop

00:46:56 ◼   ► for that other than like very expensive apps for corporations and very, very

00:47:01 ◼   ► rich people, but like, It's not a mass product at $3,000.

00:47:04 ◼   ► it's not a mass product of $2,000.

00:47:06 ◼   ► So no matter how good it is.

00:47:08 ◼   ► So yeah, I'm troubled by this,

00:47:11 ◼   ► although I'm also not necessarily convinced by this report.

00:47:15 ◼   ► - More than the price, another quote troubles me more,

00:47:18 ◼   ► which is, "Apple sees video conferencing

00:47:21 ◼   ► "as a potential killer app

00:47:22 ◼   ► "with virtual conversations conducted

00:47:24 ◼   ► "using digital avatars.

00:47:26 ◼   ► "People who have worked on the headset

00:47:27 ◼   ► "say Apple doesn't appear to have focused much on gaming."

00:47:32 ◼   ► That, so I'm potentially drawing here in my mind

00:47:37 ◼   ► a link between $3,000 and video conferencing.

00:47:41 ◼   ► And it worries me that you just said, right,

00:47:45 ◼   ► is it gonna be for corporations?

00:47:47 ◼   ► Like, I really hope that this--

00:47:49 ◼   ► - It's a HoloLens sort of thing.

00:47:51 ◼   ► - That they don't think that this is where

00:47:53 ◼   ► they should be going.

00:47:55 ◼   ► Look, I can imagine, right, Apple not putting a focus

00:47:57 ◼   ► on gaming, is Apple always, right?

00:48:00 ◼   ► Like, they never put a focus on gaming.

00:48:03 ◼   ► So they don't have to have focused specifically on gaming

00:48:06 ◼   ► at all for this product to make any sense, right?

00:48:09 ◼   ► Like, one of the things that they say in the report

00:48:12 ◼   ► is they don't have any plans for a game controller.

00:48:14 ◼   ► Yeah, well, welcome to everything for them, right?

00:48:17 ◼   ► - Remember, if you die in the meeting, you die in real life.

00:48:19 ◼   ► So, look, it's possible,

00:48:24 ◼   ► but Microsoft selling a VR, AR,

00:48:29 ◼   ► mixed reality product for corporations makes sense

00:48:33 ◼   ► with the Microsoft brand, right?

00:48:35 ◼   ► But like that's not Apple's brand.

00:48:36 ◼   ► That's not the kind of stuff Apple does.

00:48:38 ◼   ► And yes, I totally see that they're working on this, right?

00:48:41 ◼   ► Because we've seen with SharePlay and with Memojis

00:48:46 ◼   ► and with the collaboration tools, including Freeform,

00:48:52 ◼   ► like Apple is trying to build a whole suite

00:48:56 ◼   ► of collaboration and communication features,

00:48:59 ◼   ► it's very clear that they all have an application

00:49:02 ◼   ► on a virtual reality headset, right?

00:49:05 ◼   ► That's totally clear.

00:49:07 ◼   ► I get it.

00:49:08 ◼   ► But again, first off, this is the company

00:49:11 ◼   ► that wants everybody to come back into the office.

00:49:13 ◼   ► So that's amazing.

00:49:14 ◼   ► And maybe you don't have to come back into the office

00:49:17 ◼   ► if you agree to wear a headset three days a week.

00:49:19 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:49:21 ◼   ► And I just, my skepticism, like, look,

00:49:24 ◼   ► I used Meta's Horizon Worlds thing.

00:49:28 ◼   ► It was fine, but like the idea that you spend your work time

00:49:33 ◼   ► or your meeting time with a thing on your face,

00:49:36 ◼   ► looking at other avatars, like it's interesting

00:49:40 ◼   ► and there's something to the idea that it feels

00:49:42 ◼   ► like you're more present with other people

00:49:44 ◼   ► than even a FaceTime does,

00:49:46 ◼   ► I will absolutely grant you that.

00:49:49 ◼   ► But that's not something to hang your product on.

00:49:53 ◼   ► There has to be games.

00:49:54 ◼   ► Games should be as much as a focus

00:49:56 ◼   ► on this as everything else.

00:49:58 ◼   ► Now again, Apple shouldn't make the games,

00:50:00 ◼   ► but they've just got to make it possible

00:50:01 ◼   ► for people to make the games.

00:50:03 ◼   ► Honestly, I expect they will.

00:50:05 ◼   ► I, you know, like how you, you question the price thing,

00:50:09 ◼   ► I question this.

00:50:11 ◼   ► - Oh, I agree.

00:50:11 ◼   ► If it's $3,000, it doesn't make sense as a game console,

00:50:14 ◼   ► I suppose, right?

00:50:15 ◼   ► That would be the answer there.

00:50:16 ◼   ► But it doesn't, like the bet, the only,

00:50:20 ◼   ► I would say, okay, not the only,

00:50:22 ◼   ► The only real proven VR applications that exist right now

00:50:25 ◼   ► are games, fitness,

00:50:30 ◼   ► and esoteric corporate whatever.

00:50:35 ◼   ► - Meetings, I think meetings people seem to like it.

00:50:38 ◼   ► - Like with HoloLens, Microsoft's done a bunch of stuff

00:50:40 ◼   ► where it's like, you know, if you're working in 3D and CAD

00:50:43 ◼   ► and other stuff like that, where you can do visualizations

00:50:45 ◼   ► of the objects in 3D space and walk around them

00:50:47 ◼   ► and all that before you print them or build them

00:50:49 ◼   ► or whatever, like, okay, that's cool.

00:50:51 ◼   ► And then yeah, okay, well, I'll throw in Meetings,

00:50:53 ◼   ► although I'm not sure that Meetings is the killer app,

00:50:56 ◼   ► but it is an app that could be used for this.

00:50:58 ◼   ► But it's very hard to imagine

00:51:00 ◼   ► that Apple's gonna build this platform

00:51:01 ◼   ► and ignore those lifestyle features.

00:51:04 ◼   ► The only way that this works is again,

00:51:06 ◼   ► if we're misreading Apple strategy here,

00:51:09 ◼   ► and it's hard because all the focus of reports

00:51:12 ◼   ► has been on this first headset.

00:51:14 ◼   ► And if it's truly a ultra premium/development environment,

00:51:19 ◼   ► what we're missing here is,

00:51:20 ◼   ► what does the one that people will buy look like?

00:51:23 ◼   ► And when is that coming, right?

00:51:25 ◼   ► 'Cause maybe their deal that they've made here,

00:51:29 ◼   ► their bargain that they've made is,

00:51:31 ◼   ► this first one is way over engineered.

00:51:34 ◼   ► It's like the HomePod writ large.

00:51:36 ◼   ► It's a huge, expensive, spare no expense kind of thing.

00:51:41 ◼   ► And nobody's gonna buy it.

00:51:43 ◼   ► Well, okay, but we built it.

00:51:44 ◼   ► So who's gonna get it?

00:51:46 ◼   ► And they're like, all right,

00:51:46 ◼   ► well, how about developers and corporations?

00:51:48 ◼   ► We'll do that.

00:51:50 ◼   ► But what's the other part of this, right?

00:51:51 ◼   ► Because you don't spend this kind of money

00:51:54 ◼   ► building a new platform

00:51:56 ◼   ► that's gonna be used by a small number of people,

00:51:58 ◼   ► especially if you're gonna evangelize developers about it.

00:52:00 ◼   ► So what next?

00:52:04 ◼   ► - They're gonna put Apple Arcade games on this thing.

00:52:06 ◼   ► Like, I don't have any concern about that.

00:52:08 ◼   ► - Sure, but if it's $3,000, it's not gonna matter.

00:52:10 ◼   ► So that's my question is like,

00:52:12 ◼   ► what's phase two of the strategy if this is phase one?

00:52:15 ◼   ► And if it's we'll eventually lower the price,

00:52:17 ◼   ► that's a long way to go to lower the price.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Is it because you put pro on it

00:52:21 ◼   ► that there's also an Apple reality

00:52:23 ◼   ► and that's coming next year

00:52:25 ◼   ► and that's gonna be the one that everybody's gonna buy.

00:52:27 ◼   ► But in the meantime, we're doing this for people in,

00:52:31 ◼   ► I mean, it gives them an out.

00:52:33 ◼   ► When people are like,

00:52:33 ◼   ► "Why do you expect everybody to buy this thing

00:52:35 ◼   ► at this price?"

00:52:36 ◼   ► It lets them say, "No, no, no, no, no.

00:52:38 ◼   ► You misunderstand us.

00:52:39 ◼   ► This product is for developers and for corporations

00:52:43 ◼   ► and very high-end uses.

00:52:46 ◼   ► We do believe in this space and something else is coming,

00:52:49 ◼   ► we promise, that everybody's gonna want,

00:52:51 ◼   ► but for now it's like this.

00:52:53 ◼   ► I mean, I can see them building that narrative

00:52:55 ◼   ► as a way to explain why they put this at a price

00:52:57 ◼   ► that nobody is gonna buy it,

00:52:58 ◼   ► other than corporations and developers,

00:53:00 ◼   ► but the developers aren't gonna buy it either

00:53:02 ◼   ► unless they're reassured that there's gonna be

00:53:04 ◼   ► a real product that people will actually buy

00:53:07 ◼   ► and that will ship in volume

00:53:08 ◼   ► so that they will actually be getting a return

00:53:11 ◼   ► on their investment in developing for it.

00:53:14 ◼   ► - James Thompson in the chat's made a really good point,

00:53:16 ◼   ► which is if it does not have any hand controllers,

00:53:18 ◼   ► it cannot be used to games

00:53:20 ◼   ► 'cause nobody will be able to port their games.

00:53:22 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:53:23 ◼   ► I wonder if hand controllers are an option

00:53:28 ◼   ► or if Apple really believes

00:53:30 ◼   ► that their hand recognition is so good

00:53:33 ◼   ► they don't need controllers,

00:53:34 ◼   ► which might be, it might actually lead to the Apple

00:53:37 ◼   ► doesn't appear to have focused much on gaming information

00:53:40 ◼   ► from the information, right?

00:53:42 ◼   ► Like that could be the source of something like that,

00:53:44 ◼   ► which is like, well, if they really were focusing on it,

00:53:47 ◼   ► they would go beyond their own hand scanning

00:53:49 ◼   ► and put in controllers and they haven't bothered with that.

00:53:52 ◼   ► Because you do want the hand controllers

00:53:54 ◼   ► and just a video game controller is not gonna do it

00:53:55 ◼   ► because the whole idea is that you're moving your arms

00:53:58 ◼   ► around and stuff and you're interacting with objects.

00:54:01 ◼   ► So it's really mysterious, but if this is true,

00:54:06 ◼   ► if the information's got,

00:54:09 ◼   ► again, I don't think they're making it up,

00:54:10 ◼   ► but if the information has got it right

00:54:13 ◼   ► and Mark Gurman's got it right.

00:54:15 ◼   ► And this is where Apple's going with this.

00:54:17 ◼   ► It's hard not to see this as what I just described,

00:54:20 ◼   ► which is a product that is so expensive

00:54:23 ◼   ► that it really isn't for the public

00:54:24 ◼   ► and that Apple's gonna have to weave a story

00:54:26 ◼   ► about why regular people are not the audience

00:54:30 ◼   ► for this product.

00:54:31 ◼   ► That one, I think they're gonna have to say

00:54:33 ◼   ► that product is coming,

00:54:35 ◼   ► but we have to get started with this thing for right now.

00:54:38 ◼   ► And because they're gonna get,

00:54:40 ◼   ► I mean, they're gonna get savaged in the media anyway,

00:54:43 ◼   ► if they try to release a $3,000 product,

00:54:45 ◼   ► everybody's gonna laugh real hard at them.

00:54:47 ◼   ► And that's okay, they're tough, they can take it.

00:54:50 ◼   ► But they might want to not take some steps

00:54:52 ◼   ► to not poison this category

00:54:54 ◼   ► so that anything Apple does in this category

00:54:56 ◼   ► after this product is considered a joke, right?

00:55:00 ◼   ► Like they need to not poison the well here.

00:55:02 ◼   ► And I think that that's gonna be an interesting,

00:55:07 ◼   ► interesting challenge for them

00:55:10 ◼   ► if these are the facts of this product.

00:55:14 ◼   ► - iPhone apps will be able to run in an overlay 2D format.

00:55:19 ◼   ► - Sure. - It'd be kind of fun.

00:55:21 ◼   ► - Little iPhone app windows in various places

00:55:24 ◼   ► that you can, yeah, it's like a stage manager, but in 3D.

00:55:27 ◼   ► - There will be a dial, and as John Gruber called it,

00:55:33 ◼   ► a digital crown for switching between AR and VR,

00:55:36 ◼   ► which I think would be unbelievably good.

00:55:39 ◼   ► That is a good idea.

00:55:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, on my quest, you double tap

00:55:43 ◼   ► on the side of your head basically,

00:55:45 ◼   ► and it flips you from not reality to reality.

00:55:49 ◼   ► Having something tactile where you can be like,

00:55:51 ◼   ► it's like you're opening up the visor essentially,

00:55:53 ◼   ► even though it's not what it's doing.

00:55:56 ◼   ► It's not a bad idea.

00:55:57 ◼   ► It's a nice little touch.

00:55:58 ◼   ► - It's like, I wanna see a little bit,

00:56:00 ◼   ► like that, you know, like just a little bit,

00:56:02 ◼   ► give me a peek.

00:56:03 ◼   ► Like, I like that idea

00:56:04 ◼   ► if that's gonna be how it works, right?

00:56:06 ◼   ► that it won't just be you're either in AR or in VR,

00:56:10 ◼   ► you could be like halfway?

00:56:13 ◼   ► I don't know, that seems kind of interesting to me.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And you know, that $3,000 price

00:56:18 ◼   ► is based on apparently premium components

00:56:21 ◼   ► and it being thinner and lighter than the Quest Pro,

00:56:24 ◼   ► which I think goes back to the battery thing potentially.

00:56:26 ◼   ► I'm wondering, my kind of feeling on this,

00:56:29 ◼   ► 'cause the more we talk about it,

00:56:31 ◼   ► the more I move backwards and forwards

00:56:33 ◼   ► as to what I think this thing's gonna be and gonna cost,

00:56:35 ◼   ► like during the course of this conversation today,

00:56:37 ◼   ► I've changed my mind on it all like four times.

00:56:40 ◼   ► I'm expecting the information to see in a bill of materials

00:56:43 ◼   ► and that's where they come into this for $3,000.

00:56:45 ◼   ► But that is, I assume that they are included

00:56:48 ◼   ► in a margin in it.

00:56:49 ◼   ► And as we've spoken about before,

00:56:51 ◼   ► we're both on the team of Apple needs to eat the margin.

00:56:54 ◼   ► - Even if it's also, I mean, yes, you're probably right.

00:56:58 ◼   ► It's a bill of materials thing.

00:56:59 ◼   ► It's also possible that inside Apple,

00:57:02 ◼   ► there is a standard way that the rough price of a product

00:57:05 ◼   ► is calculated based on the bill of materials.

00:57:08 ◼   ► And I'm sure the final decision about pricing

00:57:12 ◼   ► is up at a very, very high level.

00:57:14 ◼   ► And that's why we don't get a lot of rumors

00:57:15 ◼   ► about actual prices in advance.

00:57:17 ◼   ► And that's the truth here is that

00:57:20 ◼   ► it's basically Tim Cook and company

00:57:23 ◼   ► are going to have to make the decision

00:57:24 ◼   ► about what margins are acceptable for this product.

00:57:28 ◼   ► And we'll see.

00:57:30 ◼   ► Like if this product is really not meant to ship

00:57:33 ◼   ► in high volume, and that was a rumor we had a few months ago

00:57:38 ◼   ► then this price is like, sure, well, that'll do it, right?

00:57:40 ◼   ► But if they expect to ship a lot of them,

00:57:43 ◼   ► that price is not gonna do it.

00:57:45 ◼   ► So they're gonna need to lower it.

00:57:47 ◼   ► And that comes back to Tim, which is like,

00:57:49 ◼   ► everybody else knows how much it costs to make it.

00:57:52 ◼   ► But Tim and company, Tim and Luca and the rest

00:57:55 ◼   ► are gonna have to look at it and say,

00:57:56 ◼   ► Well, I know it's gonna cost us $2,300

00:58:00 ◼   ► for each one of these we make,

00:58:01 ◼   ► but I'm gonna price it at $2,300 or $2,000 or whatever.

00:58:06 ◼   ► Right, like I'm just making those numbers up,

00:58:09 ◼   ► but like that's a CEO decision

00:58:12 ◼   ► of are we gonna lose money on this?

00:58:13 ◼   ► Are we gonna break even on this?

00:58:14 ◼   ► We're gonna make a little,

00:58:15 ◼   ► or are we gonna make our customary profit margin

00:58:18 ◼   ► on this thing?

00:58:19 ◼   ► And that's because it's a strategic product release, right?

00:58:22 ◼   ► Like it's not a normal Apple product.

00:58:25 ◼   ► In the run of business, Apple products

00:58:27 ◼   ► have a lot of margin built into them for good reasons, right?

00:58:30 ◼   ► That's Apple's business model.

00:58:32 ◼   ► But when you're trying to start a category

00:58:35 ◼   ► and induce developers into a vacuum of,

00:58:39 ◼   ► like literally these first developers

00:58:41 ◼   ► who are apparently working on it now,

00:58:42 ◼   ► there are no items sold at all.

00:58:45 ◼   ► It's an empty market.

00:58:46 ◼   ► They're going on faith that people will be there

00:58:48 ◼   ► to buy these products, or Apple's paying them

00:58:50 ◼   ► to develop them, which is also possible.

00:58:52 ◼   ► So you need to set the price of a product like this

00:58:57 ◼   ► differently than you would normally price a product.

00:58:59 ◼   ► And that's why it's possible that all these reports

00:59:02 ◼   ► about the price being over $2,000 or over $3,000,

00:59:05 ◼   ► they might be accurate, but they also might be based

00:59:08 ◼   ► on kind of some assumptions about pricing

00:59:10 ◼   ► that might be changed at the very high levels

00:59:12 ◼   ► for a product that's this important.

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01:01:04 ◼   ► Let's cleanse our palette and talk about CES.

01:01:09 ◼   ► Oh no.

01:01:10 ◼   ► Don't eat it.

01:01:11 ◼   ► Don't eat it.

01:01:12 ◼   ► Do not eat CES.

01:01:13 ◼   ► You don't know where it's pinned.

01:01:14 ◼   ► It's Vegas, it's been someplace really gross.

01:01:18 ◼   ► Don't do it.

01:01:19 ◼   ► - Yum. - Oh, no.

01:01:21 ◼   ► - You wrote in our document, "Monitor Madness."

01:01:24 ◼   ► - Monitor Madness.

01:01:26 ◼   ► - Lots of monitors at CES.

01:01:27 ◼   ► - Choo choo choo.

01:01:28 ◼   ► - There's always TVs.

01:01:29 ◼   ► - Monitors, monitors.

01:01:31 ◼   ► - And there's always gaming monitors.

01:01:32 ◼   ► And we're not talking about those.

01:01:33 ◼   ► There are some bananas gaming monitors.

01:01:36 ◼   ► But that's not really important for this conversation.

01:01:39 ◼   ► There were two products, one from Samsung and one from Dell

01:01:43 ◼   ► that seem to be kind of targeting the studio display

01:01:47 ◼   ► or the pro display in its size.

01:01:49 ◼   ► What were your thoughts on these?

01:01:51 ◼   ► - I just think it's interesting that there,

01:01:55 ◼   ► after many years of there being very few displays

01:01:59 ◼   ► that could satisfy Mac users in terms of the DPI to,

01:02:04 ◼   ► or yeah, DPI essentially,

01:02:08 ◼   ► or the resolution to size of the screen ratio, right?

01:02:13 ◼   ► Apple finally came out with something

01:02:16 ◼   ► that's basically the 27-inch iMac display

01:02:19 ◼   ► in a standalone product, the Studio Display.

01:02:21 ◼   ► They had the Pro Display XDR, which is very high-end,

01:02:25 ◼   ► but is also there and has been there for a while.

01:02:28 ◼   ► And then we had that LG Ultrafine, and that's about it.

01:02:31 ◼   ► And now here we are at CES 2023, and what do we get?

01:02:36 ◼   ► We get a Samsung 27 inch 5K display.

01:02:40 ◼   ► So a competitor to the studio display.

01:02:44 ◼   ► It's got ports, it's got a 4K webcam that's detachable,

01:02:48 ◼   ► that's not part of the actual display.

01:02:51 ◼   ► We don't know the price yet,

01:02:53 ◼   ► but what we see here is a Samsung alternative

01:02:57 ◼   ► to the ultra fine in the studio display,

01:02:59 ◼   ► which probably has two forms.

01:03:03 ◼   ► One is if you're a PC user

01:03:05 ◼   ► and you want an Apple level style of resolution,

01:03:10 ◼   ► here it is.

01:03:12 ◼   ► And also if you're a Mac user,

01:03:14 ◼   ► then this might be an alternative,

01:03:17 ◼   ► if assuming it's cheaper,

01:03:19 ◼   ► I mean, it's an alternative regardless.

01:03:21 ◼   ► We don't know the price though,

01:03:22 ◼   ► but it's basically Samsung has decided

01:03:24 ◼   ► to make a studio display.

01:03:26 ◼   ► So that's interesting.

01:03:27 ◼   ► - It's nice looking, I think.

01:03:29 ◼   ► I think this is a good looking display.

01:03:31 ◼   ► It comes with a stand.

01:03:33 ◼   ► I don't know if the stand is high adjustable.

01:03:35 ◼   ► the Vert article doesn't seem to indicate it.

01:03:37 ◼   ► And I can't really tell by looking at the images.

01:03:40 ◼   ► It's got an anti-glare is like the way it's just the standard.

01:03:44 ◼   ► I think this is a good looking display

01:03:46 ◼   ► and it has a detachable 4K webcam.

01:03:50 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:03:51 ◼   ► - Looks good looking.

01:03:52 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:03:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:53 ◼   ► I mean, we don't know, again, it's CES.

01:03:55 ◼   ► We don't really know anything about it.

01:03:57 ◼   ► - Apparently as well, it will come loaded

01:04:00 ◼   ► with the same software that runs on Samsung smart TVs.

01:04:04 ◼   ► So you get apps on it.

01:04:05 ◼   ► It's got the Tizen stuff.

01:04:06 ◼   ► So basically it's also a smart TV.

01:04:08 ◼   ► - Which is cool.

01:04:09 ◼   ► - Just for fun.

01:04:10 ◼   ► - Why not?

01:04:11 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, yeah.

01:04:13 ◼   ► So that's interesting.

01:04:15 ◼   ► And then separately Dell,

01:04:17 ◼   ► it's like the usual suspects, right?

01:04:19 ◼   ► Of Samsung and Dell from CES.

01:04:22 ◼   ► Dell is gonna do a 32 inch 6K display.

01:04:24 ◼   ► Sound familiar?

01:04:26 ◼   ► With a height adjustable stand,

01:04:28 ◼   ► only 600 nits peak brightness.

01:04:29 ◼   ► It's basically like,

01:04:31 ◼   ► what if you wanted something the size

01:04:33 ◼   ► and resolution of the Pro Display XDR,

01:04:36 ◼   ► but not all of the kind of like wild HDR color kind of things

01:04:41 ◼   ► a more of a consumery prosumerary monitor,

01:04:47 ◼   ► but at the size and resolution of the Pro Display XDR,

01:04:50 ◼   ► that is what this Dell monitor is.

01:04:54 ◼   ► And unlike the Samsung,

01:04:55 ◼   ► which actually has a pretty nice design.

01:04:57 ◼   ► - This one's an ugly document.

01:04:59 ◼   ► - Apple inspired.

01:05:00 ◼   ► This one looks like a Dell monitor, as you might expect.

01:05:03 ◼   ► It ain't good looking, this monitor.

01:05:06 ◼   ► It has like, I think that's a camera on the top?

01:05:09 ◼   ► It's like this very large bezel on the top with a big circle on it.

01:05:14 ◼   ► I assume that's a camera?

01:05:16 ◼   ► I don't know what's going on up there.

01:05:18 ◼   ► It is, it is.

01:05:19 ◼   ► It's bad looking, this thing, and it's I'm sure not made of very premium materials.

01:05:25 ◼   ► - No, and again, there are lots of special things

01:05:28 ◼   ► about the Pro Display XDR that make it XDR, right?

01:05:32 ◼   ► But it's five grand and this won't be,

01:05:35 ◼   ► whatever this is, it will not be five grand.

01:05:39 ◼   ► And I think that there are people out there probably

01:05:42 ◼   ► who are like, "I might do a 32 inch display,

01:05:44 ◼   ► "but not a $5,000 one."

01:05:45 ◼   ► And so they're like, "Well, oh well."

01:05:47 ◼   ► And now it's like, "Well, here you go, 32 inch 6K display."

01:05:51 ◼   ► I wonder if Apple is going into this category too.

01:05:54 ◼   ► We've heard rumors about Apple working on other displays.

01:05:57 ◼   ► Would it be a 27 inch or would they do something

01:06:00 ◼   ► that was like a more high dynamic range at 32 inches

01:06:05 ◼   ► that is not the Pro Display XDR, but is something different?

01:06:08 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:06:09 ◼   ► But what I will say is if these products ship

01:06:13 ◼   ► and are okay and are priced reasonably,

01:06:18 ◼   ► we have some monitor choice for Mac users.

01:06:21 ◼   ► And that's good 'cause wow, we were in the desert

01:06:24 ◼   ► for a very long time.

01:06:26 ◼   ► - Chi is back.

01:06:27 ◼   ► Chi 2.

01:06:29 ◼   ► - It never left.

01:06:31 ◼   ► - The sequel to Chi, Chi 2.

01:06:33 ◼   ► - Chi harder.

01:06:35 ◼   ► Chi 2, Chi harder.

01:06:36 ◼   ► - Too furious.

01:06:38 ◼   ► Is it Chi 2, 2 magnetic?

01:06:41 ◼   ► We'll go with that one.

01:06:41 ◼   ► That's it, that's what we're gonna land on.

01:06:44 ◼   ► Chi 2 is a new unified wireless charging standard

01:06:47 ◼   ► that is built on MagSafe charging technology

01:06:50 ◼   ► supply by Apple to the consortium.

01:06:52 ◼   ► This is the wildest piece of this story to me.

01:06:54 ◼   ► 'Cause like, when I saw this story, I was like,

01:06:56 ◼   ► "Oh, the new Qi is gonna have magnets."

01:06:59 ◼   ► - They knocked off MagSafe.

01:07:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it turns out Apple is a part of Qi,

01:07:03 ◼   ► but they were like, "Yeah, sure, here you go."

01:07:04 ◼   ► They gave the information.

01:07:06 ◼   ► And so this is how you do it,

01:07:08 ◼   ► and we're gonna work with you on it.

01:07:09 ◼   ► And now the new Qi will support magnets

01:07:12 ◼   ► and it will work to allow for faster charging.

01:07:15 ◼   ► The reason that MagSafe can do faster charging than Qi

01:07:18 ◼   ► is 'cause you can confirm the connection is secure

01:07:21 ◼   ► with the magnets, right?

01:07:22 ◼   ► So you can supply more power without there being heat issues

01:07:26 ◼   ► because you know where the charger is

01:07:29 ◼   ► and you know where the coil is in relationship

01:07:31 ◼   ► to each other.

01:07:32 ◼   ► I've read some articles about this.

01:07:36 ◼   ► Currently it's unknown, it's just unknown,

01:07:39 ◼   ► if G2 products and the current MagSafe

01:07:43 ◼   ► will work well together.

01:07:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's weird, right?

01:07:46 ◼   ► - Right, so, and Apple is going to use ChiTu, apparently,

01:07:50 ◼   ► according to the consortium.

01:07:53 ◼   ► - Right, so we may have a MagSafe schism or we may not.

01:07:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, we just don't know.

01:07:57 ◼   ► And like, this is what, so I read an article on The Verge,

01:08:00 ◼   ► where they were interviewing someone

01:08:02 ◼   ► from the Chi standards body, and they were--

01:08:06 ◼   ► - The Chi Consortium, yeah. - Consortium.

01:08:07 ◼   ► They're just kinda like, Apple's gonna do a thing,

01:08:10 ◼   ► we don't know. (laughs)

01:08:11 ◼   ► It's like, all right, fair enough.

01:08:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, but Apple is in the consortium

01:08:15 ◼   ► and contributed this. - Yeah.

01:08:16 ◼   ► And this is not, I mean, this is what happened

01:08:18 ◼   ► with Thunderbolt, essentially.

01:08:20 ◼   ► - Matos is the same. - Yes, that's true.

01:08:22 ◼   ► This is the way Apple does standards,

01:08:24 ◼   ► which is they participate and then they invent

01:08:26 ◼   ► their own thing and contribute it as a standard.

01:08:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, we would really like it

01:08:30 ◼   ► if you would just do the thing we did.

01:08:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, they roll into the cheek and sort of shoo

01:08:34 ◼   ► and they're like, "Oh, this is pretty good,

01:08:35 ◼   ► "this is pretty good, okay, we fixed all your crap here."

01:08:38 ◼   ► - Nice standard you got there.

01:08:40 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Be ashamed

01:08:41 ◼   ► if something happens to it. - Something happened to it.

01:08:43 ◼   ► But no, in this place, it'll be great

01:08:44 ◼   ► if something happened to it

01:08:45 ◼   ► because Apple's gonna fix your broken standard.

01:08:49 ◼   ► And anyway, so in the end, what this essentially means

01:08:53 ◼   ► is that MagSafe-like things are gonna come to Android phones

01:08:57 ◼   ► at some point and that presumably they'll be compatible

01:09:02 ◼   ► with future iPhones, but as for the present MagSafe,

01:09:05 ◼   ► will it be compatible?

01:09:06 ◼   ► It's unknown.

01:09:08 ◼   ► I would be surprised if it's incompatible, but who knows?

01:09:11 ◼   ► - Jason, would you like to hear my conspiracy theory

01:09:13 ◼   ► on this, if you wanna pop your conspiracy theory hat on.

01:09:16 ◼   ► - It's a beanie with a propeller.

01:09:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, perfect.

01:09:21 ◼   ► So, Chi-2 works on iPhones, works on Android phones,

01:09:26 ◼   ► or whatever, that is a common charger.

01:09:31 ◼   ► - Yes, it is.

01:09:32 ◼   ► - Building the future for no USB-C port on the iPhone.

01:09:36 ◼   ► Right?

01:09:38 ◼   ► I don't know if they can make this work,

01:09:41 ◼   ► but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple wanted

01:09:43 ◼   ► to really play ball on this, to try and help them out for the future, right? That there

01:09:48 ◼   ► could be a future where this could be seen as common enough, and then they can really

01:09:52 ◼   ► just go down the route that they want to go down to, which is just magsafe for everything.

01:09:56 ◼   ► I feel like Chi was already that, more or less. I don't think the magnets make that

01:09:59 ◼   ► much difference, but sure. I don't know, man.

01:10:01 ◼   ► Sure, I'm going to let you have your conspiracy. I'm going to let you have it.

01:10:04 ◼   ► But conspiracy theories, they're not based in logic, right? That's just, they're

01:10:07 ◼   ► just saying to talk about. You're right. You're right. And finally,

01:10:09 ◼   ► ports can be closed off and Apple's grand vision will come to pass of the portless iPhone.

01:10:16 ◼   ► Stronger magnets are the goal with G2 as well.

01:10:18 ◼   ► That's right. Well, it's how do they work? That's the whole thing.

01:10:23 ◼   ► The last thing I wanted to mention in CES is that matter was everywhere. Everything's

01:10:29 ◼   ► got matter in it.

01:10:30 ◼   ► It's fitting that CES, a place famous for product announcements that never quite ship,

01:10:36 ◼   ► embrace matter, a standard that sort of hasn't happened.

01:10:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:10:40 ◼   ► I'm gonna put in the show notes a YouTube video.

01:10:43 ◼   ► - Bad news for matter.

01:10:44 ◼   ► Matter is now part of the indeterminate unknown state

01:10:48 ◼   ► of CES products of does it exist or not?

01:10:51 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

01:10:53 ◼   ► Maybe, eventually, or maybe not.

01:10:55 ◼   ► - I'm gonna put into the show notes a YouTube video

01:10:58 ◼   ► from Shane Watley, who was one of the kind of home kit

01:11:02 ◼   ► creators that were introduced to me when I spoke about this

01:11:04 ◼   ► in the show a while ago.

01:11:06 ◼   ► He was at CES and just has a rundown

01:11:08 ◼   ► of like all the major players and the products

01:11:10 ◼   ► that they're bringing to market.

01:11:12 ◼   ► But there were two specific ones

01:11:14 ◼   ► that I wanted to talk about particularly.

01:11:16 ◼   ► So Acara have two products coming out,

01:11:19 ◼   ► which are very interesting.

01:11:20 ◼   ► One is the first HomeKit secure video,

01:11:24 ◼   ► wireless video doorbell.

01:11:26 ◼   ► That is exactly what I want from a product.

01:11:30 ◼   ► So I'm really intrigued to see how this works out.

01:11:33 ◼   ► The next is a smart lock with home key support.

01:11:36 ◼   ► So their lock is actually really interesting.

01:11:40 ◼   ► It's like a little panel with a keypad on it.

01:11:43 ◼   ► So you can use a keypad or it has a fingerprint sensor.

01:11:45 ◼   ► So you can use a fingerprint.

01:11:47 ◼   ► It also has the ability to have a key and home key.

01:11:49 ◼   ► It was like everything.

01:11:51 ◼   ► So I think this is a really interesting product

01:11:56 ◼   ► from Okara and I've been very happy

01:11:59 ◼   ► with my Okara stuff so far.

01:12:00 ◼   ► So I'm hoping that I will be able to get that doorbell

01:12:03 ◼   ► and make it work for me because that is the product

01:12:05 ◼   ► that I've been looking for.

01:12:07 ◼   ► Then lastly is, you know, ember mugs, right?

01:12:10 ◼   ► They're the mugs that have the heating elements in them.

01:12:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm holding one right now.

01:12:14 ◼   ► - I forgot that you had one of those.

01:12:17 ◼   ► Did we talk about this on the show?

01:12:18 ◼   ► - We did because, I think, because two things.

01:12:22 ◼   ► One is I got it on a, I think Prime Day

01:12:26 ◼   ► or pre-Prime Day kind of thing.

01:12:27 ◼   ► I got it for cheap.

01:12:28 ◼   ► And because people are like,

01:12:31 ◼   ► oh, I just, I just microwave my, whatever.

01:12:34 ◼   ► It was like, well, you know,

01:12:35 ◼   ► I leave my tea sitting here and it gets cool

01:12:37 ◼   ► and now it doesn't.

01:12:38 ◼   ► It stays that temperature forever, which is great.

01:12:40 ◼   ► Or for until the battery runs out,

01:12:41 ◼   ► which happens pretty quickly, but.

01:12:43 ◼   ► - It was a snow talk question apparently,

01:12:45 ◼   ► says Sava who submitted that snow talk question.

01:12:47 ◼   ► - And the timely part of it was that the Rishi Sunak,

01:12:51 ◼   ► the prime minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

01:12:54 ◼   ► he owns an Ember mug and somebody took a picture of him

01:13:00 ◼   ► with an ember mug before he was the prime minister.

01:13:02 ◼   ► And it was used when he became prime minister

01:13:04 ◼   ► as an example of how he is an out of touch rich guy

01:13:08 ◼   ► who doesn't understand regular people's needs

01:13:10 ◼   ► because he's using an ember mug, which I'd be like,

01:13:12 ◼   ► I think that maybe you could count how many houses he owns

01:13:15 ◼   ► and that might be a better example, but okay, sure.

01:13:18 ◼   ► The ember mug splurge on Amazon is the reason

01:13:22 ◼   ► that he is out of touch.

01:13:23 ◼   ► - Can I ask a question of you real quick?

01:13:25 ◼   ► Great Britain and Northern Ireland, what was that?

01:13:27 ◼   ► - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

01:13:30 ◼   ► right? He's the... you gotta... he's the United Kingdom!

01:13:32 ◼   ► Okay, so he's Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, but I started to say Great Britain,

01:13:35 ◼   ► and then I had to say Northern Ireland.

01:13:36 ◼   ► Oh, okay, okay, that makes sense then.

01:13:38 ◼   ► Because he's not just the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, he's Prime Minister of

01:13:42 ◼   ► all of GB.

01:13:44 ◼   ► Right, but...

01:13:46 ◼   ► He's the President of England, mate!

01:13:48 ◼   ► It was just very, like, brain-concusing.

01:13:51 ◼   ► I had to throw Northern Ireland in. Shoutout to Belfast. Come on.

01:13:55 ◼   ► You were just gonna say Great Britain, right? And then, so then, you did an about-one.

01:13:59 ◼   ► - And that's not accurate.

01:14:00 ◼   ► He's not just the Prime Minister of Great Britain.

01:14:02 ◼   ► - Right, but we call him the United Kingdom.

01:14:04 ◼   ► So like that, yes.

01:14:05 ◼   ► - But I went down the rung.

01:14:07 ◼   ► - He's the President of California

01:14:08 ◼   ► and all of the other states.

01:14:10 ◼   ► - Yes, well, for now.

01:14:12 ◼   ► If you buy an Ember mug.

01:14:15 ◼   ► - Anyway, so yes, you do have an Ember mug.

01:14:20 ◼   ► The new Ember travel mug, they have a travel mug.

01:14:22 ◼   ► I think the travel mug was their first product

01:14:25 ◼   ► and then they had the regular mug,

01:14:27 ◼   ► which I think is what you have.

01:14:28 ◼   ► - Yes, I just have the regular mug.

01:14:30 ◼   ► I don't have this giant travel thingy.

01:14:31 ◼   ► I just have, it's literally a mug with a thing

01:14:34 ◼   ► in the bottom that keeps my tea warm.

01:14:37 ◼   ► - But the new one, so it's a travel mug, right?

01:14:40 ◼   ► So you take it out and about,

01:14:41 ◼   ► is gonna support the Firemind network,

01:14:43 ◼   ► which I think is genius,

01:14:44 ◼   ► and more products should support this.

01:14:46 ◼   ► - Right, because it's actually a thing

01:14:48 ◼   ► that you would take out of the house,

01:14:49 ◼   ► whereas my Ember mug doesn't go outside the house ever,

01:14:52 ◼   ► 'cause that would be, no, ridiculous.

01:14:56 ◼   ► But this is a travel mug, so it makes sense.

01:14:57 ◼   ► - Sure, why not?

01:14:58 ◼   ► - If you make a product that leaves the home

01:15:00 ◼   ► and has Bluetooth in it, it should support,

01:15:02 ◼   ► fine, my opinion, I think that's a great idea.

01:15:05 ◼   ► - By the way, I wanna mention this

01:15:06 ◼   ► 'cause I did have a conversation with people

01:15:08 ◼   ► about the Ember mug where they're like,

01:15:09 ◼   ► I don't understand why you would have that,

01:15:10 ◼   ► I don't want a mug that's got an interface and all that.

01:15:12 ◼   ► And all I will say to that is,

01:15:15 ◼   ► I mean, this travel mug has,

01:15:17 ◼   ► I'm looking at the MacRumors story

01:15:19 ◼   ► by a friend of the show, Joe Rossignol.

01:15:21 ◼   ► And he, so he put an Ember supplied art

01:15:27 ◼   ► of their mug and it's got like a plus and minus

01:15:31 ◼   ► like interface area and a temperature readout on it.

01:15:35 ◼   ► The mug that I've got has no interface.

01:15:38 ◼   ► There's a button on the bottom that you can use

01:15:40 ◼   ► to turn it on and off and you can pair it with Bluetooth

01:15:43 ◼   ► in order to set your target temperature.

01:15:45 ◼   ► So I did that when I got it.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Since then, I use it like a mug.

01:15:51 ◼   ► There's no fiddling with anything.

01:15:54 ◼   ► You know, its interface will say,

01:15:55 ◼   ► "Oh, I've heated up your tea."

01:15:57 ◼   ► and it's like, I don't care.

01:15:58 ◼   ► All I do is put it in its charger.

01:16:00 ◼   ► No, all I do is put it in its charger.

01:16:02 ◼   ► And then when it's morning and I want tea,

01:16:04 ◼   ► I take it out of its charger,

01:16:05 ◼   ► which is like a little saucer,

01:16:07 ◼   ► basically in my kitchen counter,

01:16:09 ◼   ► and put the tea in it.

01:16:10 ◼   ► And it comes, it knows that there's hot stuff in it.

01:16:13 ◼   ► It comes on.

01:16:15 ◼   ► When the temperature goes below the threshold,

01:16:16 ◼   ► it keeps it back up to the threshold.

01:16:18 ◼   ► There's no interface to it.

01:16:19 ◼   ► And I just wanted to say that because

01:16:22 ◼   ► if I had to fiddle around with my phone

01:16:24 ◼   ► every time I drank a cup of tea,

01:16:25 ◼   ► I would have sent it back, right?

01:16:27 ◼   ► Like I'm not interested in that at all.

01:16:29 ◼   ► But at least there are on-device controls

01:16:33 ◼   ► for this travel mug.

01:16:34 ◼   ► So you're not having to go to an app to do it.

01:16:38 ◼   ► But still, I don't think I would endorse a product

01:16:41 ◼   ► that requires me to mess around with a display on it

01:16:44 ◼   ► or something like that for something like a teacup.

01:16:46 ◼   ► I just treat it like a teacup.

01:16:47 ◼   ► That's the good thing about it.

01:16:49 ◼   ► - I wanna give you one last piece of like,

01:16:52 ◼   ► support on the Ember mug is like a thing

01:16:54 ◼   ► of why it's not ridiculous and why it's better than microwaving.

01:17:00 ◼   ► So I follow a very popular YouTube coffee guy called James Hoffman and he did a review

01:17:06 ◼   ► of the Ember mug some time ago, like four years ago.

01:17:10 ◼   ► And I'm assuming this is the same for tea, but one of the things that he talks about

01:17:13 ◼   ► is like if you let a cup of coffee go cold and then put it in the microwave and heat

01:17:17 ◼   ► it up again, it changes the taste of it because the reheating of going cold and then reheating

01:17:24 ◼   ► again, will change the taste. There's some science to that. Go watch his video if you

01:17:27 ◼   ► want the science. So the idea, so what the Ember Mug does, it never lets the tea go cold,

01:17:33 ◼   ► so it will keep it tasting the same. So there is a benefit to this product if you enjoy

01:17:38 ◼   ► the thing you're drinking from the mug. Right, and if it goes for an infinite amount of time,

01:17:42 ◼   ► right, it's gonna be terrible, but in the short term it makes it better. And I'll tell

01:17:45 ◼   ► you, you know, I, again, I've got it on sale, it is kind of a ridiculous thing, I resisted

01:17:51 ◼   ► for a long time. You don't have to, I don't think you need to do that, but like you can buy whatever

01:17:55 ◼   ► you want. But I got it, and there are moments where I'm reminded why I have this thing instead

01:18:01 ◼   ► of using one of my fun mugs that I that I own, and the answer is I got half a cup of tea still left

01:18:08 ◼   ► in it and I stopped drinking it and put it down and then I pick it up and I taste it and it's

01:18:12 ◼   ► exactly the temperature that I would want it to be right out of the pot when I wanted to start

01:18:19 ◼   ► start drinking it. And it's delightful because that's that moment where you go, "Oh." In

01:18:24 ◼   ► a normal mug, it'd be like, "Oh, it's gotten cold." And you go back out and maybe put a

01:18:27 ◼   ► little more tea in it and put it in the microwave and heat it back up and then go back to bed

01:18:31 ◼   ► or whatever. And I just pick it up and I'm like, "Oh yeah, it's still, this is the, this

01:18:34 ◼   ► is the little thing doing its job." So it's, it's otherwise invisible in terms of interface.

01:18:39 ◼   ► I think we've said this before about smart stuff. Like my favorite smart tech stuff is

01:18:44 ◼   ► after you set it up, does not need to be played with, right?

01:18:49 ◼   ► Like it'll just do what it needs to do.

01:18:51 ◼   ► And like, I don't need to know about its Bluetooth.

01:18:54 ◼   ► I don't need to know about its battery.

01:18:55 ◼   ► All I know is that I wash it out

01:18:57 ◼   ► and park it on its little home and drink tea out of it.

01:19:00 ◼   ► And otherwise I know nothing about it

01:19:03 ◼   ► as a technology product.

01:19:04 ◼   ► And that's how I like it.

01:19:05 ◼   ► - The best kinds of smart products are

01:19:08 ◼   ► when the app allows for, if you say,

01:19:10 ◼   ► set up and troubleshooting.

01:19:11 ◼   ► And then other than that,

01:19:13 ◼   ► you just use it like you would want to.

01:19:17 ◼   ► Like life.

01:19:18 ◼   ► Like life.

01:19:19 ◼   ► Use it like life.

01:19:20 ◼   ► Dennis.

01:19:21 ◼   ► That's the new slogan.

01:19:22 ◼   ► Of ours.

01:19:23 ◼   ► Richie Sunac says.

01:19:24 ◼   ► Oh, ok.

01:19:25 ◼   ► Embermug.

01:19:26 ◼   ► Richie Sunac says to use it like life.

01:19:28 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Capital One.

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01:20:46 ◼   ► Let's finish up today with some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:20:51 ◼   ► Jonathan asks, with the holidays ending, what do you do with the holiday specific items

01:20:56 ◼   ► you have in HomeKit? We have a smart outlet for our Christmas tree that Siri constantly

01:21:01 ◼   ► reports isn't responding.

01:21:03 ◼   ► I wanted to ask this question Jason because yesterday I took down my Christmas tree and

01:21:07 ◼   ► we had the Hue lights, it's a bit of follow up, really nice.

01:21:10 ◼   ► I was very happy with that purchase, I bought the Hue Christmas lights remember?

01:21:14 ◼   ► Way back when they came out.

01:21:15 ◼   ► Really like them, they are very good, you can obviously go wild with the colors but

01:21:20 ◼   ► they have some really nice effects.

01:21:22 ◼   ► I was very happy with my purchase of the Hue Christmas lights.

01:21:24 ◼   ► But then this morning I was doing something in my home kit and it had the little dot and

01:21:28 ◼   ► it's like the Christmas lights aren't responding because I've unplugged them and now I don't

01:21:32 ◼   ► Like what am I supposed to do?

01:21:34 ◼   ► Do I delete them from HomeKit?

01:21:35 ◼   ► Like what do you do?

01:21:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, that's what I do is depending,

01:21:41 ◼   ► I have some, let's see, it varies.

01:21:46 ◼   ► When I'm just putting them away,

01:21:48 ◼   ► I usually just take them away and I leave them.

01:21:50 ◼   ► I don't rename them, but if it bothers you,

01:21:54 ◼   ► then yeah, you just remove them

01:21:55 ◼   ► and then you re add them next time.

01:21:58 ◼   ► If you're next time you need to use them.

01:22:00 ◼   ► So it really, it varies for me.

01:22:01 ◼   ► I don't do as good a job of that.

01:22:03 ◼   ► I have some, like, I can't connect to this one switches

01:22:07 ◼   ► that are just unplugged,

01:22:08 ◼   ► but you can always just remove them and that'll be fine.

01:22:14 ◼   ► Just repair them.

01:22:14 ◼   ► It just makes sure you've got the little pairing code.

01:22:16 ◼   ► It'll be fine.

01:22:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it's, yeah.

01:22:20 ◼   ► I mean, that's probably what I will end up doing.

01:22:22 ◼   ► I wish there was just a way to be like,

01:22:24 ◼   ► don't worry about this one, you know?

01:22:25 ◼   ► Like, just don't worry about this one.

01:22:27 ◼   ► It's fine, but.

01:22:28 ◼   ► - Oh, I agree.

01:22:29 ◼   ► - I agree, you should be able to put it in timeout

01:22:32 ◼   ► or something, but I think the answer is you remove it,

01:22:35 ◼   ► and that's how you put it in timeout.

01:22:37 ◼   ► - Put it in the little penalty box?

01:22:40 ◼   ► - Uh, yeah, exactly.

01:22:41 ◼   ► You think about what you've done, which is your job well.

01:22:46 ◼   ► Good job, but now it's over.

01:22:47 ◼   ► - Andrew asks, "If you use a MacBook and an external display,

01:22:52 ◼   ► "do you keep the MacBook open or closed?

01:22:55 ◼   ► "Personally, I can't stand using a tiny MacBook screen

01:22:58 ◼   ► next to a big display, it feels off balance.

01:23:00 ◼   ► Do you ever do this?

01:23:02 ◼   ► Do you ever do this?

01:23:03 ◼   ► Like plug your laptop in?

01:23:05 ◼   ► - No, I used to at work and I started,

01:23:09 ◼   ► I had a stand that was a,

01:23:12 ◼   ► it was a VESA mount for a display

01:23:16 ◼   ► and then it had a little laptop thing right next to it.

01:23:19 ◼   ► So you could put your laptop in it

01:23:20 ◼   ► and it would be kind of like next to your display open.

01:23:23 ◼   ► And what I very rapidly realized was

01:23:27 ◼   ► the little display set back, I never used it.

01:23:30 ◼   ► So then I ran them closed, and then at some point

01:23:33 ◼   ► I got rid of that stand and just ran with lid closed.

01:23:37 ◼   ► So my answer from back when I did this

01:23:38 ◼   ► is I always ran it lid closed.

01:23:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I do it exactly the same.

01:23:44 ◼   ► So like when I use it right now, it's just like,

01:23:47 ◼   ► it just feels, I know I could have extra screen real estate

01:23:49 ◼   ► and I do like having multiple screens,

01:23:52 ◼   ► but I feel like there has to be some kind of

01:23:54 ◼   ► relative size consistency and a 14 inch screen next to a 28 inch screen just feels off.

01:24:01 ◼   ► Right, like there's just something about that that's not right to me so I also will close it.

01:24:06 ◼   ► And like I tried doing the thing where you raise the screen, right, so maybe that would help but

01:24:11 ◼   ► that didn't help either. There was always just an issue with the with the relative sizing that I

01:24:16 ◼   ► did not like and so I also run lid closed on my laptop when plugged into my studio display every

01:24:23 ◼   ► day. Kevin asks, "Jason thinks that the regular iPhone 14 will get to Dynamic Island, and

01:24:30 ◼   ► Mark Gorman does now too, but what about MacBook notches? Dynamic Islands for everyone?"

01:24:37 ◼   ► I mean, in the long run, on laptops, I mean we're already there basically, for any laptop

01:24:46 ◼   ► that matters. So yes, but will it be a dynamic island? I think no, because I think the menu

01:24:53 ◼   ► bar is your dynamic island on the Mac, if that's what Kevin means. And on desktop, I

01:25:00 ◼   ► again I kind of don't see it because the menu bar is there and there's no need to do a cutout

01:25:04 ◼   ► on the Mac, so I don't think it's going to happen there. iPad's an interesting question,

01:25:10 ◼   ► whether they might do a dynamic island there, but you know, I don't know.

01:25:13 ◼   ► - iPad is that weird middle child, right?

01:25:16 ◼   ► Like does it do what the Mac does

01:25:18 ◼   ► or does it do what the iPhone does?

01:25:22 ◼   ► - 'Cause it has a status bar, right?

01:25:23 ◼   ► So it could just sort of expand the status bar

01:25:26 ◼   ► and use that and not need a dynamic island.

01:25:29 ◼   ► Or Apple could really push the design on the iPad

01:25:33 ◼   ► out even closer to the edges of the display

01:25:36 ◼   ► and have a cutout and do the dynamic island.

01:25:38 ◼   ► It's really sort of a question of how they wanna do it.

01:25:41 ◼   ► But on the Mac, the menu bar is the dynamic island

01:25:43 ◼   ► And I think the notch is there

01:25:45 ◼   ► as long as they need it to be there.

01:25:46 ◼   ► But I think it's just gonna be,

01:25:48 ◼   ► I don't see how,

01:25:50 ◼   ► I mean, it's possible that they would add a dynamic island

01:25:52 ◼   ► to that notch,

01:25:54 ◼   ► but it would just basically be like

01:25:57 ◼   ► around the outsides of it.

01:25:58 ◼   ► And I don't know,

01:25:59 ◼   ► you're just kind of replicating the Mac menu bar

01:26:00 ◼   ► at that point.

01:26:01 ◼   ► I don't see the point.

01:26:02 ◼   ► - Okay, asked, have you both seen "Knives Out,

01:26:06 ◼   ► Glass Onion?"

01:26:06 ◼   ► What did you think?

01:26:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, I loved it.

01:26:09 ◼   ► We watched it Christmas night,

01:26:12 ◼   ► Boxing Day night, something like that, the whole family.

01:26:14 ◼   ► And we loved it.

01:26:16 ◼   ► - Absolute delight of a movie.

01:26:18 ◼   ► No spoilers, particularly.

01:26:21 ◼   ► - Bring me more Benoit Blanc.

01:26:22 ◼   ► I want more, I mean, they signed for two movies,

01:26:24 ◼   ► so there will be more Benoit Blanc on Netflix.

01:26:27 ◼   ► - These movies make me happy

01:26:29 ◼   ► because I feel like Daniel Craig is happy.

01:26:31 ◼   ► I feel like he's only doing,

01:26:34 ◼   ► like you would only take these movies on

01:26:37 ◼   ► for the fun of it.

01:26:39 ◼   ► Because he does the accent,

01:26:40 ◼   ► which he does not need to do, right?

01:26:42 ◼   ► It is not necessary.

01:26:44 ◼   ► The accent is, like, you know,

01:26:45 ◼   ► it's not needed for the character,

01:26:48 ◼   ► but he does it, and I just think,

01:26:51 ◼   ► he just looks like he's having a great time in these movies,

01:26:53 ◼   ► which makes me happy 'cause I love Daniel Craig,

01:26:55 ◼   ► but also these movies are just fantastic.

01:26:57 ◼   ► Like, I think they have a proven formula now

01:27:00 ◼   ► of like, he goes and does a thing,

01:27:02 ◼   ► and it's now like a bunch of people whose faces you know,

01:27:05 ◼   ► or like, you really know who they are.

01:27:07 ◼   ► like this time way like bigger budget cost I feel like right and yeah I hope they just continue to

01:27:16 ◼   ► make these movies for as long as you know Daniel Craig and Ryan Johnson want to make them because

01:27:21 ◼   ► this movie like I love Knives Out and Knives Out 2 I think is better than Knives Out in every way

01:27:29 ◼   ► even though I already love Knives Out you know what I mean like I just think they

01:27:34 ◼   ► had an increased budget and I think that that really helped the second movie. Just a treat.

01:27:39 ◼   ► If you would like to send in an Ask Upgrade question, just click the link in your show

01:27:50 ◼   ► notes to submit feedback or go to Upgradefeedback.com or you can send them in with

01:27:57 ◼   ► of question mark ask upgrade in the relay FM members discord and you can send in your

01:28:03 ◼   ► questions to us that way for us to answer on a future episode of the show if you want

01:28:09 ◼   ► to find us online in the meantime go to six colors dot com for Jason's work what else

01:28:17 ◼   ► the incomparable obviously lots of shows here on relay FM but then what's the next part

01:28:23 ◼   ► for you right now.

01:28:25 ◼   ► - What do you mean?

01:28:26 ◼   ► - Is there like, you can, is that Jason L?

01:28:28 ◼   ► - What's next?

01:28:29 ◼   ► - @jasonl@masterdawn.social, is that the correct one?

01:28:32 ◼   ► - No, let's not talk about social.

01:28:33 ◼   ► Let's just not do it. - None of that?

01:28:34 ◼   ► - All right, follow up, how about this?

01:28:37 ◼   ► If you wanna follow up about anything we talked about,

01:28:40 ◼   ► I pay attention to the show,

01:28:41 ◼   ► follow up channel in the Relay FM member discord.

01:28:45 ◼   ► - Lovely, also fantastic.

01:28:47 ◼   ► And you can get access to that

01:28:49 ◼   ► and you can hear about our experiences

01:28:51 ◼   ► of using Freeform for today's episode by going to getupgradeplus.com where you can sign up

01:28:57 ◼   ► and become a member and you'll get ad-free longer episodes of Upgrade each and every

01:29:01 ◼   ► week.

01:29:02 ◼   ► If you want to find me online, you can go to mikehurley.net where you can find all of

01:29:05 ◼   ► my various projects and I am @imike on Instagram.

01:29:09 ◼   ► I'm still going for that one.

01:29:10 ◼   ► That's my social place.

01:29:11 ◼   ► But of course I am here on Reel AFM on many shows and there are lots of wonderful shows

01:29:17 ◼   ► here at Reel AFM that you can add to your podcast queue.

01:29:20 ◼   ► Thanks again to our sponsors of this week's episode, the fine folk over at TextExpander,

01:29:26 ◼   ► Capital One, and ExpressVPN.

01:29:28 ◼   ► But most of all, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.

01:29:32 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:29:35 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:29:39 ◼   ► [ Music ]

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