0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:02From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 441.
0:00:12Today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,
0:00:16Text Expander, and Capital One.
0:00:18My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snow.
0:00:21Hi, Jason Snow.
0:00:22- Hi, Myke Hurley, how are you?
0:00:24- I'm very good, my friend.
0:00:25I'm very good indeed.
0:00:26I have a snow talk question for you
0:00:27to begin today's episode of the show.
0:00:29- Okay.
0:00:30- It comes from Michael, who wants to know,
0:00:32does Jason cut his pizzas into six or eight slices
0:00:37and does he use a pizza cutter or a knife to achieve this?
0:00:40- Are we back on the pizza?
0:00:41We're back on the pizza question, huh?
0:00:42- We talk about pizza a lot on the show,
0:00:44sometimes during sponsored content, but.
0:00:47- Sometimes during sponsored content.
0:00:49Upgrade Plus subscribers may not hear that content,
0:00:52but it's there.
0:00:54The answer is eight.
0:00:56I cut pizza into eight slices.
0:00:59- Okay.
0:01:00- In part because it's the most logical thing to do
0:01:04and in part because I have,
0:01:08when they're all home, a family of four
0:01:10and that gets two pieces to everybody.
0:01:12- Yeah.
0:01:13- So yeah, you slice it half halfsies
0:01:16and then you slice it the other halfsies
0:01:17and now you've got four giant unwieldy pieces of pizza.
0:01:21And so then you slice it at a, you know, rotated a little,
0:01:24you slice the halfsies again two more times
0:01:27and you got eight pieces of pizza,
0:01:30it's the right way to do it.
0:01:32That's, I'm not gonna,
0:01:35people will debate pineapple if we need to, but--
0:01:39- There's no debate. - Somehow,
0:01:40I feel like the judgment of John Syracuse
0:01:42is hovering over me right now, it's very strange.
0:01:45The, anyway, and I use a pizza cutter,
0:01:48I use the Zyliss pizza cutter available on Amazon,
0:01:52maybe we'll put a link in the show notes.
0:01:54It is a weird thing where it's like a big stainless steel
0:01:59circle cutting blade inside a plastic holder.
0:02:03So it grips really well and is great for cutting pizza
0:02:07or quesadillas or anything else that you might need
0:02:12to cut in a radial fashion.
0:02:16- I have a pizza cutter similar to this
0:02:18made by a company called Joseph and Joseph.
0:02:20And it looks kind of like yours.
0:02:22It's like the wheel, but with the plastic thing, you can hold on the top and you can just wheel it along
0:02:27and put your full force into it, which is the good thing, as opposed to the one that has the handle on it.
0:02:32I feel like I'm able to put more force into the cutting of the pizza.
0:02:36Yeah.
0:02:37I prefer smaller slices of pizza, so I am on board with you with the eight slice rather than six slice, you know?
0:02:45Although I should be-- I want to be clear here, because I've heard-- not you, but I've heard people say this, that
0:02:50they think the slice is like the atom of pizza, but of course the slice scales with the size of
0:02:58the pizza. If you cut eight pieces, eight slices out of a small pizza or a large pizza, the slices
0:03:04change size, right? So when people say I prefer one piece or one slice, two slices or whatever,
0:03:10like, well, you're gonna get a slice. So if you had an enormous, let me put it this way, if I had
0:03:16had a pizza the size of my dining room table, I would probably cut it into more than eight.
0:03:22Although at that point, that's why they do in Chicago, they do that party cut thing,
0:03:28I'm sure Detroit and I'm sure there are other places that do this, where they cut it, they
0:03:32give up. Beyond a certain point, they give up because the slices are going to be very
0:03:37long and narrow, and so they start cutting them into squares essentially. But if you're
0:03:41maintaining the fundamental dignity of a circular pizza, at some point it will, as it enlarges,
0:03:49it will become unwieldy and that involves a lot of math involving pi, and not just the
0:03:53pizza pie but the actual number of pi, and we're not going to get into that because this
0:03:57is not a podcast about math.
0:03:59Thankfully, because I'm bad at it. So, it wouldn't be a very good podcast, it wouldn't
0:04:04be a very educational podcast because I'm not good at math.
0:04:08If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own, we have a new way for
0:04:12you to do that.
0:04:13But another way that you can do it is question mark Snell Talk in the Relay FM members discord.
0:04:17You can send out a tweet with the hashtag Snell Talk, but let's talk about the brand
0:04:21new way that you can send in feedback for the show.
0:04:25So on the Relay FM website now for every show that is currently using this, we're developing
0:04:31this tool, some shows are using it, some aren't, but hopefully over time more shows will be.
0:04:36is a new button that says submit feedback and you can send it opens a form on our website
0:04:42where you can write your thoughts comments send in your follow up whatever it is and
0:04:47it goes into our system so we can read that before the beginning of every episode each
0:04:52week and pick out what we want to talk about we actually kind of mentioned on the last
0:04:56episode that it might be available and it did like I think on Tuesday so we actually
0:05:01got quite a bit of feedback for this episode.
0:05:04So there's some follow up I've got here.
0:05:06And so I believe this Snow Talk question,
0:05:09and I think all of today's Ask Upgrade questions
0:05:13were submitted via the new feedback tool.
0:05:15So it's in the link of the show notes for every episode.
0:05:18But you can also go anytime to upgradefeedback.com
0:05:22and it takes you to the form.
0:05:25You gotta have URLs, man.
0:05:27I'm all about it.
0:05:28- I love it that you bought a domain for this.
0:05:30That's a surprise, genuine surprise to me.
0:05:32And I don't know why I should be surprised
0:05:34that there's upgradefeedback.com.
0:05:36Of course there is.
0:05:37- I like new URLs.
0:05:38I think that they help people remember things.
0:05:40- Who needs slashes?
0:05:41- No one wants slashes.
0:05:42- You say a slash and you've already lost.
0:05:44- Yeah, if it's a horror film, that's fine.
0:05:47But otherwise, no slashes around here.
0:05:48You know what I mean?
0:05:49So we recommend that you use this now
0:05:53for follow-up and ask upgrade and snow talk.
0:05:57- Hey Myke, what if there was a top level domain
0:05:59that was ./
0:06:00Would that be confusing?
0:06:01- I would love that actually.
0:06:02I would buy a lot of those.
0:06:03- HTTP colon slash slash, but not the word slash.
0:06:07- Dot slash.
0:06:08- Upgrade dot slash, but not the character slash,
0:06:10the word slash.
0:06:12Not the guitarist from Guns N' Roses slash.
0:06:14Actually he could run it.
0:06:15- We're getting off topic here, Jason.
0:06:16- He could run the dot slash top level domain.
0:06:19He could.
0:06:19- We're gonna bring you in here, okay?
0:06:20Come on.
0:06:21- Guitarist dot slash.
0:06:23- We're on focus here.
0:06:24So you can use the new feedback tool
0:06:27to send in anything that you want.
0:06:29In the future, because we're developing this
0:06:31as part of our CMS and website, in the future,
0:06:34we're going to have probably a dropdown.
0:06:37So you could say, this is Ask Upgrade.
0:06:39This is Snowtalk.
0:06:40People have been very kindly saying right now,
0:06:43but you don't have to worry about it.
0:06:44You can let us decide for the time being.
0:06:47This is very much a 1.0 of this feature.
0:06:50But going forward, this and the Discord
0:06:53will be the best places to send feedback and questions.
0:06:56I would say for the moment, at least,
0:06:58this is the best way to send in follow-up
0:07:00for the show, I think, for us.
0:07:03So we'd really appreciate it if you used it.
0:07:05And if you have any thoughts about the system,
0:07:08also feel free to put those in a feedback for us.
0:07:13- Sure.
0:07:14- So thank you to everybody who has already tested out
0:07:17the system and thank you to all of you that will use it.
0:07:20We've been talking about this on and off,
0:07:21but especially for me not being on Twitter anymore
0:07:25and not using Mastodon, I wanna make sure
0:07:27that we still have a good free way
0:07:29for people to send in feedback to the show.
0:07:31So we worked on this at "Real AFM" and here it is.
0:07:36Jason, should we tell people
0:07:38about the Upgrade Plus Challenge segment?
0:07:41- I think we should just to clue them in
0:07:44on what we're doing here.
0:07:45And one is being undertaken even as we speak,
0:07:50although you can't tell, I assure you it is.
0:07:54So we have a new recurring segment on Upgrade Plus.
0:07:59It starts this week and we'll probably do this at least once a month,
0:08:02but maybe in an increasing frequency,
0:08:06where we're going to pick a challenge that we will complete as part of Upgrade
0:08:11Plus. Thanks to our innovative friends,
0:08:13Dubai Friday and Reconcilable Differences for pioneering the
0:08:18challenge format on podcast.
0:08:20So the challenge for this week's episode was to use and is to use Freeform for our show notes planning.
0:08:28So this came from a conversation that Jason and I had between the two of us, and you were saying that,
0:08:33you know, you tried out Freeform and you weren't really sure how to use it,
0:08:37and so you said, "What if we use this to plan an episode of the show?" So here we are.
0:08:42Mac Power users just did this for their Freeform episode as well, which I listened to in preparation for this episode.
0:08:48To be clear, we came up with this idea separate from MPU.
0:08:53And in fact, when I mentioned to David Sparks
0:08:56when I visited him that we were thinking of doing this,
0:08:58he said, oh, we just did that.
0:09:01So all right, fair enough.
0:09:03But we're doing it now, this episode.
0:09:05If it seems disorganized or especially extra
0:09:09greatly organized, it's because we are
0:09:13using a different tool for it.
0:09:14and we'll report on our feelings about it
0:09:18after the show is over at the end of Upgrade
0:09:21in the Upgrade Plus segment for members.
0:09:24So that's where it'll be.
0:09:25And then what will happen after that.
0:09:27Like I said, I think last week, listening
0:09:29to your State of the Apps on Cortex,
0:09:33I was thinking about how I need to get more out of my comfort
0:09:36zone with stuff because I've got such a refined, let's say,
0:09:40suite of tools that I use every day.
0:09:44I like the idea of being pulled out of my comfort zone,
0:09:47either by you challenging me or by me challenging myself,
0:09:51but to do things differently or use different apps
0:09:54or whatever.
0:09:55So we don't know what form this will take.
0:09:57We really don't, but we are starting it now
0:10:00and it will not even be every week.
0:10:02It will be an occasional recurring segment in Upgrade Plus,
0:10:05but hopefully no less than one a month.
0:10:08- Yep, it will be recurring.
0:10:10Like this is the beginning of a new part of Upgrade Plus.
0:10:13So we'll still be doing the typical things
0:10:14where we bring up different types of content,
0:10:16but this is gonna be like a structured thing
0:10:18that we do every now and again.
0:10:19If you want Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com.
0:10:22That's another URL, Jason, that I got.
0:10:24- I know, that one's been around.
0:10:25That's not a surprise domain, though.
0:10:27- Getupgradeplus.com.
0:10:29You can sign up and we'll appreciate your support
0:10:31and we hope you enjoy this additional content.
0:10:34I have just a couple of pieces of follow-up
0:10:37before we get on with, I think, a pretty packed show today.
0:10:41There's been a lot. - I can't tell.
0:10:42Is that, are we doing that based on the surface area
0:10:44in free form? - Shush.
0:10:46We're not talking about free form now.
0:10:48- Okay, sorry. - Okay, none of that.
0:10:49- Right, all right.
0:10:51- Josh wrote in to let us know that titanium
0:10:53can in fact be anodized.
0:10:55We were talking about this on the last episode
0:10:56and I was wondering if Apple moved to titanium,
0:10:59would the colors have to change for the phones,
0:11:02if they moved to titanium on the iPhone?
0:11:04Apparently they can not only be anodized,
0:11:06the colors can be quite vibrant.
0:11:08So it seems like they can make that work for them
0:11:10if they wanted to.
0:11:11- And spoilers for our next segment,
0:11:13but there's a rumor that that's what they're doing
0:11:15is titanium for the iPhone Pro.
0:11:18- And Apple's Q1 results are coming up every second
0:11:22it has been announced.
0:11:24- Oh yeah, that's gonna be, what a day that's gonna be.
0:11:27- It's gonna be a bloodbath.
0:11:28I can't wait, I'm really excited about it.
0:11:31Like I always am, but yeah.
0:11:32- I feel like with all the headlines
0:11:34and with all the warnings, what Apple has done is,
0:11:37we're gonna say that it's a bloodbath,
0:11:39but in some ways the bloodbath has already happened
0:11:41because everybody expects it to be bad.
0:11:43And of course it's like Wall Street, sorry,
0:11:45sorry, investors, Wall Street's like gambling
0:11:48in the sense that it's all about like,
0:11:50you get the information and you make your choices.
0:11:53And so everybody on the street has heard all the bad news.
0:11:57So the stock has gone down because they're like,
0:11:59okay, well, bad news is coming.
0:12:00They're anticipating the bad news.
0:12:02So what that might mean is in February 2nd,
0:12:05even though the numbers look bad,
0:12:07Wall Street may react positively to it
0:12:10because it might not be as bad as they thought it would be.
0:12:14So that's gonna be even more interesting to see.
0:12:16And how is Apple spinning what's happened in the month
0:12:20since the end of the quarter, if they say,
0:12:23"Look, by the end of December, we were back online
0:12:26and things are going great."
0:12:27And that would buoy the stock
0:12:29and how Apple is viewed in the market.
0:12:30So it's gonna be, I think,
0:12:32the most interesting Apple results release in years, really.
0:12:37So can't wait to see it.
0:12:38- But as is typical for this show,
0:12:40whatever Wall Street say we don't care about,
0:12:42what we're intrigued in is how they tell this story.
0:12:46Like how is Apple, when pushed, going to tell the story
0:12:51of their terrible, horrible, no good quarter, right?
0:12:54And so I'm fascinated.
0:12:56- Yeah, exactly.
0:12:57And that is, I know that, I mean,
0:12:58there are definitely people who invest in Apple
0:13:00and care about Apple as a stock,
0:13:02who read my stuff and listen to our podcasts,
0:13:05and that's fine, but yes, I think it's important to say
0:13:08that that's not the lens we use,
0:13:11the stock price is not the lens we use
0:13:13to discuss or evaluate the company.
0:13:16We're much more concerned in sort of the products
0:13:18and the business as a whole,
0:13:21like how successful the products
0:13:23and the other business things that Apple is doing
0:13:26are how that's all going.
0:13:28But it's not, we don't have Apple stock,
0:13:32we're not Apple investors, that's not our focus,
0:13:34just to be clear.
0:13:35So the street will do what it will do.
0:13:36But yes, it's gonna be fascinating to see
0:13:38what the details are and how Apple explains itself, right?
0:13:43Like this is Tim.
0:13:44What's Tim say? - Explain yourself.
0:13:48- Explain yourself, Tim.
0:13:49- Yes, that's our first question.
0:13:52Our first question comes from Myke Hurley of Real AFM.
0:13:54(laughing)
0:13:56- Explain yourself.
0:13:57Tim Cook, explain yourself.
0:13:59- This is Tim.
0:14:02How'd you get on this call?
0:14:04- We try our best to keep you away.
0:14:06Yeah, you're not a financial analyst. You're the host of that podcast that was once behind me at WWDC. Get off the line!
0:14:17This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by ExpressVPN.
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0:14:57this when we're traveling. So if I'm watching a show at home and want a streaming service
0:15:03and because I'm away it's like "oh you can't watch this content because you're not at home
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0:16:23Jason, the horses have bolted out of the corral,
0:16:27and they have run amok across the whole town,
0:16:30making for an absolutely gargantuan-sized
0:16:34rumor roundup today.
0:16:36- It's true.
0:16:37- So we've got a few areas to focus on.
0:16:41One is like--
0:16:41- Different pastures, different fields to go in
0:16:45to bring the horses back in to round them back up.
0:16:47Okay, got it, got it.
0:16:48- So we're gonna go down to Germantown right now.
0:16:50This is, I think, a pretty typical thing from Mark Gurman
0:16:54at Bloomberg to have like a,
0:16:57here is my thing for the year or whatever, right?
0:17:00So like he'll come out and say like,
0:17:02this is what I'm expecting.
0:17:03And he maybe brings together some things
0:17:05that he's been working on
0:17:06or some like areas that he has been focusing on.
0:17:10So get a few quotes we're gonna read, Jason,
0:17:12we can talk about them.
0:17:14- Sure.
0:17:15- So just a few quotes from Mark.
0:17:15"A larger iMac Pro has been on and off Apple's roadmap
0:17:18and I would be surprised at this point
0:17:20if it arrives in 2023.
0:17:22I'm sure you're very sad about that.
0:17:24- Yeah, I have heard elsewhere that,
0:17:28the same story basically, I've heard elsewhere that,
0:17:30I don't wanna say my own sources,
0:17:33but kind of my own sources that-
0:17:34- Ooh, look at you, oh, hello.
0:17:37Hang on, breaking news on the rumor roundup.
0:17:39We have a new sheriff in town.
0:17:41- I just wanna assert that it is also my understanding
0:17:45that the larger iMac has been on and off,
0:17:50that the existence of doing displays
0:17:52seems to have been a little bit of a bargain
0:17:55to not need to do a big iMac anymore
0:17:58because the displays would cover that
0:18:00and the Mac studio and all of that.
0:18:02So anyway, I just wanna corroborate
0:18:05what Mark is saying here.
0:18:06Mark is saying it's been on and off,
0:18:07which is actually more encouraging than what I heard,
0:18:09which is that it's off.
0:18:10But I think that this is the thing,
0:18:12is they go back and forth about it.
0:18:13I'm surprised because they sold that larger iMac for so long.
0:18:17And the 24 is not the 27.
0:18:20But maybe the answer is anybody who wants a bigger iMac
0:18:23than the 24 should just get a studio display
0:18:25and a Mac studio.
0:18:27Thus far, that is essentially what they're saying.
0:18:29Or a Mac studio and a Mac mini if you want.
0:18:31Yeah.
0:18:33Or sorry, Mac, a studio display, so many studios,
0:18:36so many Macs, a studio display and whatever you want
0:18:39to attach to it instead of a 27-inch iMac.
0:18:42So that may not happen.
0:18:43I'm also surprised at what he says about,
0:18:46which you didn't mention,
0:18:48but he continues to insist
0:18:51that the iMac won't be updated until the M3,
0:18:54which I'm just surprised
0:18:55that they would just skip an entire chip generation
0:18:57with the iMac.
0:18:58It's their chips.
0:19:00Is the iMac, Apple talks so much
0:19:02about the iMac being the flagship of the Mac in many ways.
0:19:04And it's used in so many cases,
0:19:06and it's in hotels, and it's in classrooms,
0:19:08and it's all these places.
0:19:10And then for them to just sort of be like,
0:19:11meh, we'll wait an extra chip cycle
0:19:16before we even bother updating it.
0:19:18I just, I'm surprised that the iMac seems to be so,
0:19:23I don't know, I don't know whether it's lower priority
0:19:26or whether maybe they just think it's good enough,
0:19:28but I continue to be surprised
0:19:30that they aren't more enthusiastic about it.
0:19:33- I think we're too early on in Apple Silicon
0:19:36to understand if this might be a typical thing
0:19:38for a lot of products.
0:19:40- Right, whether they just skip a generation.
0:19:42- Yeah. - Yeah, maybe so.
0:19:44We don't know.
0:19:45- On the Mac Pro, Apple plans to release a Mac Pro
0:19:48with the M2 Ultra, making it unclear
0:19:51beyond the machine's expandability
0:19:52why most users will buy it over the cheaper
0:19:54and smaller Mac Studio.
0:19:56In another disappointment, the new Mac Pro
0:19:58will look identical to the 2019 model.
0:20:01It will also lack one key feature from the Intel version,
0:20:04user upgradeable RAM.
0:20:06That's because the memory is tied directly
0:20:08to the M2 Ultra's motherboard.
0:20:10Still, there are two SSD storage slots
0:20:13and for graphics, media, and networking cards.
0:20:15- This is information in the sense that it's saying,
0:20:20here's what is upgradable in this thing.
0:20:23They're gonna use the existing case,
0:20:25which he says it's disappointing.
0:20:26I mean, I guess that's Mark Gurman
0:20:29putting his own little editorial spin on it.
0:20:31Although I think there's an implication there
0:20:33that they were investigating a smaller enclosure
0:20:35and they've decided,
0:20:36maybe this is one of those cost saving things, right?
0:20:38That we heard the reports about how the Mac Pro,
0:20:42they didn't wanna over-invest in it,
0:20:44and so they weren't gonna do the quad core chip.
0:20:46Well, using the existing enclosure
0:20:49from the last Intel Mac Pro
0:20:51would be another way to save money.
0:20:53But within that, he's saying, look,
0:20:55the memory is inextricably linked.
0:20:57So the memory is gonna be on the chip packages,
0:21:00and that's just how it's gonna be.
0:21:01But he is saying expandable storage, expandable media,
0:21:06media and networking and graphics cards.
0:21:09So that's, it sounds to me like that's gonna be
0:21:12the big change in the Mac Pro from previous
0:21:16Apple Silicon Macs, right?
0:21:18Is that they seem to have, I guess, done the work
0:21:21to be able to use external graphics cards of some kind.
0:21:26That's not a capability that Apple Silicon has had up to now.
0:21:29It's all been the onboard GPUs.
0:21:32But whether they're third-party graphics cards
0:21:34or whether Apple has built its own custom GPU thing
0:21:39that they do as an interconnect, and I don't know.
0:21:42But I think this is actually kind of an encouraging report,
0:21:46just in the sense that it's more upgradeable.
0:21:51Yeah, more upgradeable than we maybe thought,
0:21:53even though RAM is not a part of it.
0:21:55- Yeah, I mean, I will profess
0:21:58to not understanding this enough,
0:22:00but it is intriguing to me that they have seemingly done
0:22:04the work to allow for graphics that are not part of the chip or part of the package. But
0:22:10they haven't done that for RAM. They're obviously prioritizing. I actually think that's the
0:22:14right priority. I think these days it's easier to maybe understand how much RAM you want
0:22:21and you just get whatever you need. I think for people that want this particular type
0:22:25of machine, I feel like graphics media and networking cards along with SSD storage solutions
0:22:31or whatever could be interesting. I'm intrigued by SSD storage slots. Are they just doing M2?
0:22:40Like the little guys that you plug in? Or are they going to be able to allow you to put
0:22:45bigger hard drives in there? I don't know. But it doesn't matter. The point is,
0:22:49it's going to be upgradeable. I am intrigued by what identical to the 2019 model means.
0:22:55Like is it the same one or is it a smaller version of it? Because I really do wonder if it needs to
0:23:00to be as physically large, but we'll find out I suppose.
0:23:03- I think the answer based on Mark Gurman's report here
0:23:06is that they're gonna use the existing case
0:23:10whether you need it or not,
0:23:11they're gonna use the existing case.
0:23:12So it may be, it may seem awfully empty in there,
0:23:17but you know, that seems to be
0:23:20what's gonna be happening here.
0:23:21So it's fascinating to me,
0:23:23'cause it does seem a little bit like they had big plans
0:23:25and then they kind of scaled them back.
0:23:26- Yep.
0:23:28The 15 inch MacBook Air is still planned
0:23:30for release this year.
0:23:32We'd also spoken in the past on Rumor Roundup
0:23:34about a 12 inch model that Apple are also looking at.
0:23:38That is no longer on their near term roadmap,
0:23:40which I think is probably the right thing.
0:23:42- I'm disappointed, but at the same time,
0:23:44I'm actually encouraged because I had kind of,
0:23:48I keep wish casting and dreaming for a smaller laptop,
0:23:51but I never really expected them to do it.
0:23:56I wanted them to do it, but there's a difference,
0:23:57I guess somewhere in there between wanting it
0:23:59and thinking it'll actually happen.
0:24:01And I always thought it was unlikely to happen.
0:24:03So even though it's no longer on their near-term roadmap,
0:24:05I'm fascinated that it was,
0:24:07and that it's still kind of bubbling out there
0:24:09as something they might do in the future,
0:24:11that the 13-inch Air might not be the smallest Mac laptop
0:24:16available at some point in the future.
0:24:17But for the near-term, it's that larger Air,
0:24:19which we talked about several times on the show
0:24:22as being a nice way for people to get a larger display
0:24:25without having to spend two grand on a MacBook Pro.
0:24:29- Apple has been working on larger iPads,
0:24:32but I'm told not to expect those this year.
0:24:35- Who's telling you?
0:24:37The people, I guess.
0:24:38- The people, yeah, the people.
0:24:39- People are telling you, don't expect those.
0:24:41This year, yeah, so this is my prediction about
0:24:43that they were gonna do a larger iPad.
0:24:47And he says, "No, not this year, it's not gonna happen."
0:24:50Which means it's gonna be a real quiet year for the iPad.
0:24:53I thought that the larger iPad might be the only thing
0:24:55that they did this year, but it sounds like
0:24:57they're not even gonna do that this year.
0:24:59- The return of the larger HomePod size
0:25:01is still set for this year, but I wouldn't expect
0:25:04anything revolutionary about it.
0:25:05Then what's the point?
0:25:07What's the point?
0:25:08Unless, okay, if they bring back a bigger one,
0:25:11but it's like $200, right?
0:25:14- Right.
0:25:15- Maybe fine, right?
0:25:16- Yeah, that's the point is that it's gonna sound better
0:25:19than the HomePod Mini.
0:25:20- Yeah, but if it still costs $400, then there's no point.
0:25:23- No, no, well, of course it won't.
0:25:25I think that's the example is it's gonna be
0:25:27a big HomePod mini.
0:25:28It's going to be maybe the size of that HomePod
0:25:32that was the original model,
0:25:33but it's gonna be, again, sort of scaled down
0:25:36in terms of what's in it,
0:25:38all the different speakers and stuff, right?
0:25:40It's gonna be more like a scaled up HomePod mini,
0:25:43which I think is fine.
0:25:44I think that's the right thing.
0:25:46And then if the HomePod mini is 99 or whatever,
0:25:48then you do it at 199 for the larger one
0:25:51that's got some more speakers and sounds better.
0:25:54Because the HomePod mini is nice,
0:25:57but it does not sound as good as the HomePod,
0:25:59and there's room there.
0:26:00Even if it doesn't sound as good as the original HomePod,
0:26:03there's room for it to sound better than it does,
0:26:05and to get a bigger model in there.
0:26:07So I think that's fine.
0:26:09- Mark referenced that devices like the Apple Watch
0:26:13are gonna probably see a pretty quiet year,
0:26:16but did reference that quote,
0:26:18"The iPhone hardware could be impressive.
0:26:21"I am told to expect the same screen sizes
0:26:23"as the iPhone 14 family,
0:26:25"but the dynamic island will expand to all four models,"
0:26:27as Jason called out.
0:26:29"A titanium frame replaces stainless steel on the Pro,
0:26:32"and there will be haptic volume buttons,"
0:26:34that means not real buttons,
0:26:36"the iPhone will also switch to USB-C and faster processors."
0:26:41- Right, now I just wanted to caution people,
0:26:43although Myke in an earlier segment here
0:26:45said that titanium can be anodized
0:26:47and in fact can come in bright colors.
0:26:49- I mean, so on the pro,
0:26:50it's not gonna be in bright colors.
0:26:51I mean, it's just gonna--
0:26:52- Yeah, do not expect that to happen.
0:26:53(laughing)
0:26:54Instead, expect it-- - I might still get my gold.
0:26:56It's all I want. - Yes.
0:26:58And then there'll be your midnight tree bark
0:27:03and your evening, I don't even know,
0:27:06evening leaves and your something like that.
0:27:11Or yeah, yeah, like the dark rainbow on campus at night.
0:27:16or like your 3 a.m.
0:27:19gray whale.
0:27:22- Perfect. - I don't know.
0:27:23Like it will be the same unimpressive color scheme
0:27:28even though titanium can withstand more than that.
0:27:31But titanium can make it lighter.
0:27:33That phone could be lighter.
0:27:34That iPhone Pro could really stand to be lighter.
0:27:37So that's good.
0:27:38- But all of this is like table dressing, really,
0:27:43for the bigger thing,
0:27:44which we all know is coming this year,
0:27:45which is the headset.
0:27:47And Mark mentions, so like leading into that,
0:27:50Apple's focus on the, he calls it XR OS operating system.
0:27:55I hope it's not that.
0:27:57I mean, it's just Xross, I guess we'll call it
0:28:00in that instance, the Xross operating system.
0:28:04- XR OS, like TV OS, we already do it.
0:28:06- Yeah, but XR sounds horrible.
0:28:09If it was AR OS, that would be better, or VR OS.
0:28:12but no one's gonna call it XR, right?
0:28:15Like we're not gonna call it that.
0:28:17- They are.
0:28:18- You think that Apple will call it XR?
0:28:21- If Apple calls it that, then all of us will go along.
0:28:23Yeah, sure. - 10R?
0:28:2410ROS.
0:28:27- 10ROS, okay. - Now, I genuinely don't think
0:28:29Apple's gonna call their device an XR device.
0:28:33They might call it a mixed reality device,
0:28:35but I don't think they're gonna refer to it as XR.
0:28:38That's my, like that is what people call mixed reality.
0:28:42Some people do call it Emma, which I hope that they would be more likely to call it
0:28:46an XR.
0:28:47Well, it's a marketing decision, ultimately.
0:28:51We'll see.
0:28:53So along with the focus on this operating system, along with iOS 16 snags, has also
0:28:59cost some new features in iOS 17 and iPadOS 17, the same goes for Mac OS 14.
0:29:05So they're going all in on this thing, which makes sense to me.
0:29:09Like I think there will be stuff coming out this year, there will be new things, of course,
0:29:14but I'm expecting the overall focus of 2023 will be the headset and the operating system.
0:29:21And you know, as we've been talking about before, that's going to start at some point
0:29:25in the spring and it's going to hit every single time Apple's got something to say this
0:29:29year, they're going to be talking about this in some way.
0:29:33And it's already been happening, right?
0:29:35Because they've already been working on this.
0:29:36This is the, when we think about how like,
0:29:39oh, the Mac needs to get attention, but if it does,
0:29:42it's gotta take attention away from the iPhone and the iPad
0:29:44and the iPhone needs to get its share
0:29:46because it's the biggest product,
0:29:47but then you can't ignore the iPad and all that.
0:29:49What's been going on for, you know,
0:29:52over the last several years, but it's been increasing.
0:29:54And especially in the last year, I'd imagine,
0:29:56is this product that's beneath the surface still,
0:30:00but there's huge amounts of work going on on this product.
0:30:04So that's gonna obviously continue
0:30:07'cause then they're gonna get it out there
0:30:08and it's gonna be pre 1.0
0:30:10and there's gonna be all that work
0:30:11that needs to be done to it.
0:30:12And when we finally see it, we're gonna be like,
0:30:14oh, it doesn't do this, doesn't do this, it doesn't do this.
0:30:16And Apple's gonna have to scramble.
0:30:17Remember the early Apple Watch days
0:30:19when sort of like their app approach wasn't quite right
0:30:23and the hardware wasn't quite there
0:30:24and they had to do a lot of work on it.
0:30:27And Apple thinks that this is a strategic product for them.
0:30:30So Apple is gonna be and is already distracted
0:30:35and is moving resources to this thing.
0:30:38And that's how it should be.
0:30:39- This is how you gotta do it.
0:30:40If you mean it, you gotta do it.
0:30:41- If you mean it, yeah, you do.
0:30:43Otherwise it's just a hobby.
0:30:44It's, you know, and this is not a hobby.
0:30:47- Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple has already
0:30:50shared the device of a small number of high profile
0:30:53software developers for testing and letting them
0:30:55get started on third party apps for demos.
0:30:58the company is aiming to unveil it this spring
0:31:01ahead of the WWDC conference in June.
0:31:04This makes all of this is making sense to me,
0:31:06like especially if they're sharing it with people now,
0:31:10these people have got eight weeks, right?
0:31:12Like that's the goal, right?
0:31:14- Those are the people who are demoing at the launch event
0:31:17and then they will promise at the launch event
0:31:19more details about it for third-party development in June
0:31:25at WWDC, right?
0:31:26That'll be how it goes and the SDK will come out then.
0:31:30- And I think this is super smart, right?
0:31:32Because then companies that wanna do it
0:31:34or developers that are interested in it,
0:31:36you've then got like three months to start whiteboarding,
0:31:38thinking, like brainstorming, like what could we do
0:31:42without seeing the stuff, right?
0:31:44So you start thinking big picture,
0:31:46then you get the development kit
0:31:47and then you can start seeing
0:31:49what you can bring to life a bit, right?
0:31:50Like that, this all, this is the playbook, right?
0:31:53We've been talking about this for ages.
0:31:54This is the "We have a new thing" playbook.
0:31:57They did it with the iPhone, they did it with the Apple Watch.
0:32:02I don't know if they did it with the iPad, I don't remember the timeline.
0:32:05Like, I don't think it was as far in advance, right, from announcement to release.
0:32:12I think it was a shorter period of time.
0:32:14But still, time.
0:32:16So more from Mark Gurman.
0:32:17"With the current plan, Apple could introduce the device to consumers, likely under the
0:32:21the name Reality Pro and then get developers up to speed on its software features in June.
0:32:27On this timeline, the company would then ship the product later in the fall of 2023.
0:32:31They're going to call it Apple Reality Pro, right?
0:32:34It's not just going to be Reality Pro, right?
0:32:36Like, sure.
0:32:37Yeah.
0:32:38Right?
0:32:39We're in agreement on that?
0:32:40Like, I just think that's just what he said, but I don't think that's the name.
0:32:43Apple is branded on everything now.
0:32:46Yeah.
0:32:47And Apple Reality, by the way, is a device name I'm kind of fine with.
0:32:51I don't know if my feelings on this have changed or not over time, but Apple Reality Pro is like a perfectly okay name for me.
0:32:59Yeah, it's it's what
0:33:02Apple is doing now with names right? It is the most obvious
0:33:07generic name with Apple in front of it. Yeah, and this is my favorite quote
0:33:15Maybe ever. I love this so much. Alright?
0:33:18While Apple still has many kinks to work out with the device,
0:33:21involving hardware, software and services, as well as how it will be marketed and sold,
0:33:25the company is banking on the product as its hot new introduction for this year.
0:33:29So, other than the hardware, software, services, marketing and the way it's sold,
0:33:38it's ready to go.
0:33:41It's all ready to go.
0:33:42(laughing)
0:33:44He's ready to go.
0:33:45- Woo.
0:33:48- It's incredible.
0:33:49Like Mark Gurman, we are such big fans of you on this show.
0:33:53You know that, right?
0:33:54You know that.
0:33:55This is bananas what you have said here, right?
0:33:58Like, oh, aside from everything, they're ready.
0:34:01- Well, I think that, I mean, not to speak for Mark,
0:34:05but my guess is that that is the strong implication
0:34:07when he wrote this sentence,
0:34:09he was very much trying to get across.
0:34:11- They're not ready.
0:34:12or like the people that he's talking to are like,
0:34:14I don't know.
0:34:16There are parts of this, right?
0:34:17Marketing and how it's gonna be solved,
0:34:19they have nine months at least from now to work that out.
0:34:23And so like, sure.
0:34:24Hardware, software and services,
0:34:27at least one of those three has to be at a state
0:34:29where they're ready to start talking about it
0:34:32or like to say they've got a plan,
0:34:33especially the hardware, right?
0:34:35- Right.
0:34:36I do think that maybe there are some questions about,
0:34:40Yeah, hardware, it seems a lot,
0:34:42I mean, if they're not gonna ship it until the fall though,
0:34:44they're just gonna have samples.
0:34:45They may be able to make changes, but yeah,
0:34:48software, I could see them being like,
0:34:50their features were gonna drop out of initial release
0:34:53'cause we just can't get there.
0:34:54Keep in mind, this is a lot harder of a problem
0:34:59than the iPhone in the sense that the iPhone launched
0:35:02without a software developer kit for third parties, right?
0:35:06But it was so successful when they introduced it
0:35:08that now everything has to ship
0:35:09with a software development kit, which makes sense
0:35:11'cause it makes the products more interesting.
0:35:13But it means that they gotta, when they do this,
0:35:17they do have to have a developer story.
0:35:19And that's extra complexity.
0:35:20And that, you frustrate the developers
0:35:22if you keep messing around with the software
0:35:24'cause they need to rely on it.
0:35:26So yeah, this is,
0:35:29it's gonna be really interesting to watch
0:35:32and see what's going on here.
0:35:34It does feel like maybe this is just
0:35:37function of it being around so long and being delayed that Mark Gurman has more information
0:35:43about it and more people have more information about it and that because it's been delayed
0:35:46and because there have been changes, we are seeing into the development in a way that
0:35:52maybe we might not have otherwise. But it sure sounds like a product that is not focused
0:36:01and not ready, and yet they seem to be saying that, you know, it's coming.
0:36:09Not ready or not, but that like, they keep delaying it, and now they think they probably
0:36:14will get to it in time, but again, they're still working on it, it seems, from this report.
0:36:18That's pretty wild.
0:36:19But I'd see, the thing that I'm struggling with this is, if the hardware has been delayed
0:36:23multiple times, how are they still struggling with the software and services part?
0:36:28Because in theory, the software and services had to be ready for the hardware.
0:36:32So the hardware's been delayed, right?
0:36:33Well, the hardware being delayed is not the way to phrase it, I think.
0:36:37Think of it as the product has been delayed.
0:36:38The hardware could be ready.
0:36:40It's probably not.
0:36:41But they could have finished the hardware a year ago and said, "We're ready to ship
0:36:44this."
0:36:45And they would have to delay the hardware, so to speak, anyway, if the software's not
0:36:49ready.
0:36:50So the product's not ready is the best way to look at this.
0:36:52The product has been delayed.
0:36:54And why has it been delayed?
0:36:56Is it the hardware?
0:36:57Is it the software?
0:36:58at the services, answer's probably yes, right?
0:37:02But it's probably all of those things.
0:37:04I don't think it's just the hardware necessarily.
0:37:07Although, I mean, to your point,
0:37:09if it was just the hardware,
0:37:10then they wouldn't say the software is still in flux, right?
0:37:14Other than if the software has to be in flux
0:37:16because they keep changing the hardware,
0:37:17which is a possibility.
0:37:19- That makes more sense to me.
0:37:20- Could be.
0:37:21- The information also had another big report about this
0:37:24with a bunch of details that we've not heard about
0:37:28before. So there's a lot of little hardware tidbits. So one of them is that
0:37:32you know so you've got the the screens that go on your face attached to your
0:37:36head with a headband right. So the headband is said to have speakers built
0:37:40into it. This is very normal for other types of VR headsets. So you know you can
0:37:46put it on and you can hear and they're kind of like fire interiors or whatever.
0:37:50But speakers are speakers and if they're going to be like actual speakers not
0:37:54anything like bone conduction or whatever,
0:37:56it would be audible to people that are around you.
0:37:59They would be able to hear.
0:38:00So if you're sitting next to someone
0:38:01and you're using the Apple Reality Pro,
0:38:04they're gonna be able to hear what you're doing.
0:38:06So the information references that AirPods
0:38:09could be required for some use cases.
0:38:11- Like communication, they said,
0:38:13like if you wanna have a private communication,
0:38:15although one side of the communication
0:38:17is gonna be audible in the room anyway, right?
0:38:18'Cause you're gonna be talking.
0:38:20But it is true that like they sound,
0:38:22Like on my quest, on my quest too,
0:38:25it sounds really good even when I'm not wearing a headset,
0:38:29but when I'm not wearing headphones.
0:38:32But you know, if I'm playing ping pong,
0:38:35my wife can tell that I'm playing ping pong, right?
0:38:38She's in the other room and it's,
0:38:39(mimics ping pong)
0:38:40Right, like it's ping pong, it's happening.
0:38:43There's table tennis, ping sounds going off.
0:38:46And like, so you probably want headphones,
0:38:49just because if there's, if other people are around,
0:38:52especially, plus it's gonna shut out the outside world
0:38:55a little bit. - Yeah.
0:38:56But I bet those speakers in Headband
0:38:58will have like spatial audio and stuff.
0:38:59I bet they'll sound really good.
0:39:01- I'm sure they will.
0:39:03It's funny that this report is sort of like,
0:39:05well, the AirPods 2 is gonna be like the--
0:39:10- The best one. - Required in some use cases
0:39:12or AirPods-- - Yeah, I don't really like
0:39:15the way it's written, 'cause I think it can be easily taken
0:39:19that that means, oh, the Apple are gonna mean
0:39:21you have to have them.
0:39:23But it's like, no, I just think it means practically.
0:39:26From a practicality standpoint,
0:39:28you're gonna want headphones, right?
0:39:32But the issue is then, is apparently
0:39:34that the only headphones, this is the catch,
0:39:37the only headphones that will work with this headset
0:39:40apparently would be AirPods Pro 2.
0:39:42And that is part of the,
0:39:45you know, we've been talking about this before,
0:39:47like some of the stuff that Apple mentioned
0:39:48about the frequencies and how it's got
0:39:51like a wider, what was the phrasing that they used?
0:39:54- Oh, like capable of more bandwidth
0:39:56or something like that. - Yeah.
0:39:57That apparently, that was for the headset.
0:40:00So these would be the only headphones
0:40:04that would work at all,
0:40:06and then anything that has the H2 chip in from this point.
0:40:09They're obviously not gonna have a headphone jack
0:40:11on this device, and you would probably want
0:40:14small in-ears anyway, because it's easier
0:40:17for the fact that you've got a big strap
0:40:18around your head, right?
0:40:20We haven't talked about the price yet,
0:40:22but I will just say,
0:40:24if the information's report on the price is true,
0:40:28which I am very much skeptical of,
0:40:31but if it is true, all I'll say is,
0:40:34AirPods Pro 2 should come in the box, if that's the price.
0:40:38- Yeah. (laughs)
0:40:40- Right, like if you're gonna require
0:40:42for truly immersive whatever, AirPods Pro,
0:40:46and the product costs a large amount of money,
0:40:49They just need to be in the box, that's it.
0:40:53- I actually agree with you on this one.
0:40:54Yeah, I think that that would be not just a courtesy,
0:40:59but like that should be the way that this thing works
0:41:02as it comes to them.
0:41:03Do I think they will do this?
0:41:04Absolutely not, but they should.
0:41:06And we'll talk about it when it happens, right?
0:41:09- I'm actually a little surprised
0:41:10that they aren't using headphones or AirPods Max
0:41:15or AirPods Pro in a more integrated way,
0:41:19at least as a possibility here with transparency.
0:41:23'Cause the reason you don't wanna cover people's ears
0:41:27is because they might need to interact with people
0:41:29in the real world, but there's transparency.
0:41:31So you could make it that you put this thing on
0:41:34and it's got headphones, right?
0:41:35You could just do that where it's playing.
0:41:37You don't, it's playing right into yours.
0:41:39You put the headphones in or the act of putting it on
0:41:42also puts headphones on you.
0:41:44I know that there are a lot of ergonomic reasons
0:41:46you might not wanna do that, but I'm a little surprised
0:41:48'cause like transparency, that's the whole idea.
0:41:50But yes, if it's gonna be very expensive
0:41:52and for best use you're gonna need
0:41:55to put something in your ears or over your ears,
0:41:58should be in the box.
0:42:02- From the information, a special alternate headband
0:42:06will be available for developers,
0:42:08likely allowing for the device to be hooked up
0:42:10to a Mac for development.
0:42:11- Yeah, this is the developer kit thing
0:42:14and it totally makes sense, right?
0:42:16that there needs to be a way to hook this thing up to a Mac directly so that you can
0:42:21be running your code on the Mac and debugging it while using the headset, which is bananas,
0:42:27but that's like that's how VR development works.
0:42:29Yeah, this is not a special alternate headband. This is a developer kit, right? Like you can
0:42:34it's not like you get a headband and then buy your thing and no, they will send you
0:42:37the whole thing. You'll pay them a lot of money for the privilege and it will come with
0:42:41a headband that has a cable attached to it, right? You know what I mean?
0:42:45a detail. I'm not confident in either one, whether developers will be able to get it
0:42:50with the headband and that'll be all part of it, or whether they'll say, "Go get this
0:42:54product and then we'll… you can separately buy a headband and attach it," whatever.
0:42:58Well, the report also says that the idea for user-swappable headbands has been removed
0:43:04from the product, so you wouldn't be able to do that.
0:43:07Right. But it says that the developers will have a swappable headband, so I think that
0:43:12the jury is out about whether the, it's not important,
0:43:15but like developers will be able to get a thing
0:43:17where they can tether.
0:43:18However, the details, details don't matter.
0:43:21They'll be able to get that.
0:43:22And that'll be for developers.
0:43:23And, and that's it.
0:43:25It's not going to be one of these things where it's like,
0:43:26or you can hook it up to a Mac and play real games.
0:43:30It's like, that's not the point of it.
0:43:32The point is the tethering is just going to be
0:43:34for developers.
0:43:35- As of last year,
0:43:36the headset used an external battery pack tethered by cable,
0:43:40as opposed to a battery integrated into the headband.
0:43:43The design choice has been controversial
0:43:45among Apple's engineers,
0:43:46given the company's preference for cable-free designs.
0:43:49I am on Team Battery Pack.
0:43:53- I can't see, okay, I can't see this product
0:43:58having a mandatory external battery that you have to wear.
0:44:02I can't see it.
0:44:05- Well, I agree.
0:44:06I can't see that it will happen,
0:44:08but I think they should do it
0:44:09because then it will be lighter on your head.
0:44:12Like that's the goal. - So yes, yes,
0:44:15but it means that to get into it,
0:44:17you've gotta equip even more.
0:44:19And that equipping phase is no fun.
0:44:21- You're already so in at the point
0:44:23where you're like putting this thing on your face,
0:44:25putting the earphones in your ears.
0:44:28- It's different having a cable snaking away from your body
0:44:30and going somewhere that can get snagged
0:44:32or can be tense or all of that.
0:44:33So what I'm gonna say is, 'cause I'm not finished, right?
0:44:38The idea that to get good battery life,
0:44:43you need to attach a thing and they will sell you a thing
0:44:46or it comes with a thing to get good battery life.
0:44:50I'm okay with that idea.
0:44:52But the idea that this thing when it's in use
0:44:56always has a cable snaking from it
0:44:59to somewhere else on your body where there's a battery pack.
0:45:02Like yuck, yuck.
0:45:07- $3,000 price tag is still expected from the information.
0:45:11- Okay.
0:45:11Okay, let me stop you there.
0:45:14(laughs)
0:45:17$3,000 price tag.
0:45:22I believe that the technology in this thing
0:45:28might mean that that price is justified,
0:45:35but I can't envision them selling,
0:45:37even if they put pro on it,
0:45:39I can't envision them selling enough $3,000 plus headsets
0:45:44to make an audience large enough
0:45:50to justify any app development for it.
0:45:52That $3,000 sounds like a developer kit,
0:45:56a developer preview of something
0:45:58that will be eventually available
0:46:00in a consumer friendly product down the road
0:46:03so that developers can start working now
0:46:05on the Reality Pro so that they're ready
0:46:08when reality comes out, Apple reality for way cheaper.
0:46:12I mean, I thought the $2,000 plus
0:46:15was a ridiculous price point.
0:46:16$3,000 plus is what's above that.
0:46:19Ludicrous?
0:46:20I don't know.
0:46:25I don't know what to do with this report
0:46:26because I said, I think last week,
0:46:28I am strongly of the belief that Apple
0:46:31basically needs to eat its profit margins
0:46:33on this product when it comes out.
0:46:35So that, and whether break even or lose money or whatever, but like, they
0:46:39need to get some volume going for the developers to build for their new
0:46:43platform.
0:46:43And if Apple is going to sell this thing for $3,000, like who's it for?
0:46:47Corporations and very, very rich people as a toy.
0:46:51Well, I mean, that's great.
0:46:52You'll make a profit on the few that you sell, but, um, who's going to develop
0:46:56for that other than like very expensive apps for corporations and very, very
0:47:01rich people, but like, It's not a mass product at $3,000.
0:47:04it's not a mass product of $2,000.
0:47:06So no matter how good it is.
0:47:08So yeah, I'm troubled by this,
0:47:11although I'm also not necessarily convinced by this report.
0:47:15- More than the price, another quote troubles me more,
0:47:18which is, "Apple sees video conferencing
0:47:21"as a potential killer app
0:47:22"with virtual conversations conducted
0:47:24"using digital avatars.
0:47:26"People who have worked on the headset
0:47:27"say Apple doesn't appear to have focused much on gaming."
0:47:32That, so I'm potentially drawing here in my mind
0:47:37a link between $3,000 and video conferencing.
0:47:41And it worries me that you just said, right,
0:47:45is it gonna be for corporations?
0:47:47Like, I really hope that this--
0:47:49- It's a HoloLens sort of thing.
0:47:51- That they don't think that this is where
0:47:53they should be going.
0:47:55Look, I can imagine, right, Apple not putting a focus
0:47:57on gaming, is Apple always, right?
0:48:00Like, they never put a focus on gaming.
0:48:03So they don't have to have focused specifically on gaming
0:48:06at all for this product to make any sense, right?
0:48:09Like, one of the things that they say in the report
0:48:12is they don't have any plans for a game controller.
0:48:14Yeah, well, welcome to everything for them, right?
0:48:17- Remember, if you die in the meeting, you die in real life.
0:48:19So, look, it's possible,
0:48:24but Microsoft selling a VR, AR,
0:48:29mixed reality product for corporations makes sense
0:48:33with the Microsoft brand, right?
0:48:35But like that's not Apple's brand.
0:48:36That's not the kind of stuff Apple does.
0:48:38And yes, I totally see that they're working on this, right?
0:48:41Because we've seen with SharePlay and with Memojis
0:48:46and with the collaboration tools, including Freeform,
0:48:52like Apple is trying to build a whole suite
0:48:56of collaboration and communication features,
0:48:59it's very clear that they all have an application
0:49:02on a virtual reality headset, right?
0:49:05That's totally clear.
0:49:07I get it.
0:49:08But again, first off, this is the company
0:49:11that wants everybody to come back into the office.
0:49:13So that's amazing.
0:49:14And maybe you don't have to come back into the office
0:49:17if you agree to wear a headset three days a week.
0:49:19I don't know.
0:49:21And I just, my skepticism, like, look,
0:49:24I used Meta's Horizon Worlds thing.
0:49:28It was fine, but like the idea that you spend your work time
0:49:33or your meeting time with a thing on your face,
0:49:36looking at other avatars, like it's interesting
0:49:40and there's something to the idea that it feels
0:49:42like you're more present with other people
0:49:44than even a FaceTime does,
0:49:46I will absolutely grant you that.
0:49:49But that's not something to hang your product on.
0:49:53There has to be games.
0:49:54Games should be as much as a focus
0:49:56on this as everything else.
0:49:58Now again, Apple shouldn't make the games,
0:50:00but they've just got to make it possible
0:50:01for people to make the games.
0:50:03Honestly, I expect they will.
0:50:05I, you know, like how you, you question the price thing,
0:50:09I question this.
0:50:11- Oh, I agree.
0:50:11If it's $3,000, it doesn't make sense as a game console,
0:50:14I suppose, right?
0:50:15That would be the answer there.
0:50:16But it doesn't, like the bet, the only,
0:50:20I would say, okay, not the only,
0:50:22The only real proven VR applications that exist right now
0:50:25are games, fitness,
0:50:30and esoteric corporate whatever.
0:50:35- Meetings, I think meetings people seem to like it.
0:50:38- Like with HoloLens, Microsoft's done a bunch of stuff
0:50:40where it's like, you know, if you're working in 3D and CAD
0:50:43and other stuff like that, where you can do visualizations
0:50:45of the objects in 3D space and walk around them
0:50:47and all that before you print them or build them
0:50:49or whatever, like, okay, that's cool.
0:50:51And then yeah, okay, well, I'll throw in Meetings,
0:50:53although I'm not sure that Meetings is the killer app,
0:50:56but it is an app that could be used for this.
0:50:58But it's very hard to imagine
0:51:00that Apple's gonna build this platform
0:51:01and ignore those lifestyle features.
0:51:04The only way that this works is again,
0:51:06if we're misreading Apple strategy here,
0:51:09and it's hard because all the focus of reports
0:51:12has been on this first headset.
0:51:14And if it's truly a ultra premium/development environment,
0:51:19what we're missing here is,
0:51:20what does the one that people will buy look like?
0:51:23And when is that coming, right?
0:51:25'Cause maybe their deal that they've made here,
0:51:29their bargain that they've made is,
0:51:31this first one is way over engineered.
0:51:34It's like the HomePod writ large.
0:51:36It's a huge, expensive, spare no expense kind of thing.
0:51:41And nobody's gonna buy it.
0:51:43Well, okay, but we built it.
0:51:44So who's gonna get it?
0:51:46And they're like, all right,
0:51:46well, how about developers and corporations?
0:51:48We'll do that.
0:51:50But what's the other part of this, right?
0:51:51Because you don't spend this kind of money
0:51:54building a new platform
0:51:56that's gonna be used by a small number of people,
0:51:58especially if you're gonna evangelize developers about it.
0:52:00So what next?
0:52:04- They're gonna put Apple Arcade games on this thing.
0:52:06Like, I don't have any concern about that.
0:52:08- Sure, but if it's $3,000, it's not gonna matter.
0:52:10So that's my question is like,
0:52:12what's phase two of the strategy if this is phase one?
0:52:15And if it's we'll eventually lower the price,
0:52:17that's a long way to go to lower the price.
0:52:20Is it because you put pro on it
0:52:21that there's also an Apple reality
0:52:23and that's coming next year
0:52:25and that's gonna be the one that everybody's gonna buy.
0:52:27But in the meantime, we're doing this for people in,
0:52:31I mean, it gives them an out.
0:52:33When people are like,
0:52:33"Why do you expect everybody to buy this thing
0:52:35at this price?"
0:52:36It lets them say, "No, no, no, no, no.
0:52:38You misunderstand us.
0:52:39This product is for developers and for corporations
0:52:43and very high-end uses.
0:52:46We do believe in this space and something else is coming,
0:52:49we promise, that everybody's gonna want,
0:52:51but for now it's like this.
0:52:53I mean, I can see them building that narrative
0:52:55as a way to explain why they put this at a price
0:52:57that nobody is gonna buy it,
0:52:58other than corporations and developers,
0:53:00but the developers aren't gonna buy it either
0:53:02unless they're reassured that there's gonna be
0:53:04a real product that people will actually buy
0:53:07and that will ship in volume
0:53:08so that they will actually be getting a return
0:53:11on their investment in developing for it.
0:53:14- James Thompson in the chat's made a really good point,
0:53:16which is if it does not have any hand controllers,
0:53:18it cannot be used to games
0:53:20'cause nobody will be able to port their games.
0:53:22- That's true.
0:53:23I wonder if hand controllers are an option
0:53:28or if Apple really believes
0:53:30that their hand recognition is so good
0:53:33they don't need controllers,
0:53:34which might be, it might actually lead to the Apple
0:53:37doesn't appear to have focused much on gaming information
0:53:40from the information, right?
0:53:42Like that could be the source of something like that,
0:53:44which is like, well, if they really were focusing on it,
0:53:47they would go beyond their own hand scanning
0:53:49and put in controllers and they haven't bothered with that.
0:53:52Because you do want the hand controllers
0:53:54and just a video game controller is not gonna do it
0:53:55because the whole idea is that you're moving your arms
0:53:58around and stuff and you're interacting with objects.
0:54:01So it's really mysterious, but if this is true,
0:54:06if the information's got,
0:54:09again, I don't think they're making it up,
0:54:10but if the information has got it right
0:54:13and Mark Gurman's got it right.
0:54:15And this is where Apple's going with this.
0:54:17It's hard not to see this as what I just described,
0:54:20which is a product that is so expensive
0:54:23that it really isn't for the public
0:54:24and that Apple's gonna have to weave a story
0:54:26about why regular people are not the audience
0:54:30for this product.
0:54:31That one, I think they're gonna have to say
0:54:33that product is coming,
0:54:35but we have to get started with this thing for right now.
0:54:38And because they're gonna get,
0:54:40I mean, they're gonna get savaged in the media anyway,
0:54:43if they try to release a $3,000 product,
0:54:45everybody's gonna laugh real hard at them.
0:54:47And that's okay, they're tough, they can take it.
0:54:50But they might want to not take some steps
0:54:52to not poison this category
0:54:54so that anything Apple does in this category
0:54:56after this product is considered a joke, right?
0:55:00Like they need to not poison the well here.
0:55:02And I think that that's gonna be an interesting,
0:55:07interesting challenge for them
0:55:10if these are the facts of this product.
0:55:14- iPhone apps will be able to run in an overlay 2D format.
0:55:19- Sure. - It'd be kind of fun.
0:55:21- Little iPhone app windows in various places
0:55:24that you can, yeah, it's like a stage manager, but in 3D.
0:55:27- There will be a dial, and as John Gruber called it,
0:55:33a digital crown for switching between AR and VR,
0:55:36which I think would be unbelievably good.
0:55:39That is a good idea.
0:55:41- Yeah, on my quest, you double tap
0:55:43on the side of your head basically,
0:55:45and it flips you from not reality to reality.
0:55:49Having something tactile where you can be like,
0:55:51it's like you're opening up the visor essentially,
0:55:53even though it's not what it's doing.
0:55:56It's not a bad idea.
0:55:57It's a nice little touch.
0:55:58- It's like, I wanna see a little bit,
0:56:00like that, you know, like just a little bit,
0:56:02give me a peek.
0:56:03Like, I like that idea
0:56:04if that's gonna be how it works, right?
0:56:06that it won't just be you're either in AR or in VR,
0:56:10you could be like halfway?
0:56:13I don't know, that seems kind of interesting to me.
0:56:15And you know, that $3,000 price
0:56:18is based on apparently premium components
0:56:21and it being thinner and lighter than the Quest Pro,
0:56:24which I think goes back to the battery thing potentially.
0:56:26I'm wondering, my kind of feeling on this,
0:56:29'cause the more we talk about it,
0:56:31the more I move backwards and forwards
0:56:33as to what I think this thing's gonna be and gonna cost,
0:56:35like during the course of this conversation today,
0:56:37I've changed my mind on it all like four times.
0:56:40I'm expecting the information to see in a bill of materials
0:56:43and that's where they come into this for $3,000.
0:56:45But that is, I assume that they are included
0:56:48in a margin in it.
0:56:49And as we've spoken about before,
0:56:51we're both on the team of Apple needs to eat the margin.
0:56:54- Even if it's also, I mean, yes, you're probably right.
0:56:58It's a bill of materials thing.
0:56:59It's also possible that inside Apple,
0:57:02there is a standard way that the rough price of a product
0:57:05is calculated based on the bill of materials.
0:57:08And I'm sure the final decision about pricing
0:57:12is up at a very, very high level.
0:57:14And that's why we don't get a lot of rumors
0:57:15about actual prices in advance.
0:57:17And that's the truth here is that
0:57:20it's basically Tim Cook and company
0:57:23are going to have to make the decision
0:57:24about what margins are acceptable for this product.
0:57:28And we'll see.
0:57:30Like if this product is really not meant to ship
0:57:33in high volume, and that was a rumor we had a few months ago
0:57:38then this price is like, sure, well, that'll do it, right?
0:57:40But if they expect to ship a lot of them,
0:57:43that price is not gonna do it.
0:57:45So they're gonna need to lower it.
0:57:47And that comes back to Tim, which is like,
0:57:49everybody else knows how much it costs to make it.
0:57:52But Tim and company, Tim and Luca and the rest
0:57:55are gonna have to look at it and say,
0:57:56Well, I know it's gonna cost us $2,300
0:58:00for each one of these we make,
0:58:01but I'm gonna price it at $2,300 or $2,000 or whatever.
0:58:06Right, like I'm just making those numbers up,
0:58:09but like that's a CEO decision
0:58:12of are we gonna lose money on this?
0:58:13Are we gonna break even on this?
0:58:14We're gonna make a little,
0:58:15or are we gonna make our customary profit margin
0:58:18on this thing?
0:58:19And that's because it's a strategic product release, right?
0:58:22Like it's not a normal Apple product.
0:58:25In the run of business, Apple products
0:58:27have a lot of margin built into them for good reasons, right?
0:58:30That's Apple's business model.
0:58:32But when you're trying to start a category
0:58:35and induce developers into a vacuum of,
0:58:39like literally these first developers
0:58:41who are apparently working on it now,
0:58:42there are no items sold at all.
0:58:45It's an empty market.
0:58:46They're going on faith that people will be there
0:58:48to buy these products, or Apple's paying them
0:58:50to develop them, which is also possible.
0:58:52So you need to set the price of a product like this
0:58:57differently than you would normally price a product.
0:58:59And that's why it's possible that all these reports
0:59:02about the price being over $2,000 or over $3,000,
0:59:05they might be accurate, but they also might be based
0:59:08on kind of some assumptions about pricing
0:59:10that might be changed at the very high levels
0:59:12for a product that's this important.
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1:01:04Let's cleanse our palette and talk about CES.
1:01:09Oh no.
1:01:10Don't eat it.
1:01:11Don't eat it.
1:01:12Do not eat CES.
1:01:13You don't know where it's pinned.
1:01:14It's Vegas, it's been someplace really gross.
1:01:18Don't do it.
1:01:19- Yum. - Oh, no.
1:01:21- You wrote in our document, "Monitor Madness."
1:01:24- Monitor Madness.
1:01:26- Lots of monitors at CES.
1:01:27- Choo choo choo.
1:01:28- There's always TVs.
1:01:29- Monitors, monitors.
1:01:31- And there's always gaming monitors.
1:01:32And we're not talking about those.
1:01:33There are some bananas gaming monitors.
1:01:36But that's not really important for this conversation.
1:01:39There were two products, one from Samsung and one from Dell
1:01:43that seem to be kind of targeting the studio display
1:01:47or the pro display in its size.
1:01:49What were your thoughts on these?
1:01:51- I just think it's interesting that there,
1:01:55after many years of there being very few displays
1:01:59that could satisfy Mac users in terms of the DPI to,
1:02:04or yeah, DPI essentially,
1:02:08or the resolution to size of the screen ratio, right?
1:02:13Apple finally came out with something
1:02:16that's basically the 27-inch iMac display
1:02:19in a standalone product, the Studio Display.
1:02:21They had the Pro Display XDR, which is very high-end,
1:02:25but is also there and has been there for a while.
1:02:28And then we had that LG Ultrafine, and that's about it.
1:02:31And now here we are at CES 2023, and what do we get?
1:02:36We get a Samsung 27 inch 5K display.
1:02:40So a competitor to the studio display.
1:02:44It's got ports, it's got a 4K webcam that's detachable,
1:02:48that's not part of the actual display.
1:02:51We don't know the price yet,
1:02:53but what we see here is a Samsung alternative
1:02:57to the ultra fine in the studio display,
1:02:59which probably has two forms.
1:03:03One is if you're a PC user
1:03:05and you want an Apple level style of resolution,
1:03:10here it is.
1:03:12And also if you're a Mac user,
1:03:14then this might be an alternative,
1:03:17if assuming it's cheaper,
1:03:19I mean, it's an alternative regardless.
1:03:21We don't know the price though,
1:03:22but it's basically Samsung has decided
1:03:24to make a studio display.
1:03:26So that's interesting.
1:03:27- It's nice looking, I think.
1:03:29I think this is a good looking display.
1:03:31It comes with a stand.
1:03:33I don't know if the stand is high adjustable.
1:03:35the Vert article doesn't seem to indicate it.
1:03:37And I can't really tell by looking at the images.
1:03:40It's got an anti-glare is like the way it's just the standard.
1:03:44I think this is a good looking display
1:03:46and it has a detachable 4K webcam.
1:03:50- Yep.
1:03:51- Looks good looking.
1:03:52- Yeah.
1:03:52Yeah.
1:03:53I mean, we don't know, again, it's CES.
1:03:55We don't really know anything about it.
1:03:57- Apparently as well, it will come loaded
1:04:00with the same software that runs on Samsung smart TVs.
1:04:04So you get apps on it.
1:04:05It's got the Tizen stuff.
1:04:06So basically it's also a smart TV.
1:04:08- Which is cool.
1:04:09- Just for fun.
1:04:10- Why not?
1:04:11- Mm-hmm, yeah.
1:04:13So that's interesting.
1:04:15And then separately Dell,
1:04:17it's like the usual suspects, right?
1:04:19Of Samsung and Dell from CES.
1:04:22Dell is gonna do a 32 inch 6K display.
1:04:24Sound familiar?
1:04:26With a height adjustable stand,
1:04:28only 600 nits peak brightness.
1:04:29It's basically like,
1:04:31what if you wanted something the size
1:04:33and resolution of the Pro Display XDR,
1:04:36but not all of the kind of like wild HDR color kind of things
1:04:41a more of a consumery prosumerary monitor,
1:04:47but at the size and resolution of the Pro Display XDR,
1:04:50that is what this Dell monitor is.
1:04:54And unlike the Samsung,
1:04:55which actually has a pretty nice design.
1:04:57- This one's an ugly document.
1:04:59- Apple inspired.
1:05:00This one looks like a Dell monitor, as you might expect.
1:05:03It ain't good looking, this monitor.
1:05:06It has like, I think that's a camera on the top?
1:05:09It's like this very large bezel on the top with a big circle on it.
1:05:14I assume that's a camera?
1:05:16I don't know what's going on up there.
1:05:18It is, it is.
1:05:19It's bad looking, this thing, and it's I'm sure not made of very premium materials.
1:05:25- No, and again, there are lots of special things
1:05:28about the Pro Display XDR that make it XDR, right?
1:05:32But it's five grand and this won't be,
1:05:35whatever this is, it will not be five grand.
1:05:39And I think that there are people out there probably
1:05:42who are like, "I might do a 32 inch display,
1:05:44"but not a $5,000 one."
1:05:45And so they're like, "Well, oh well."
1:05:47And now it's like, "Well, here you go, 32 inch 6K display."
1:05:51I wonder if Apple is going into this category too.
1:05:54We've heard rumors about Apple working on other displays.
1:05:57Would it be a 27 inch or would they do something
1:06:00that was like a more high dynamic range at 32 inches
1:06:05that is not the Pro Display XDR, but is something different?
1:06:08Who knows?
1:06:09But what I will say is if these products ship
1:06:13and are okay and are priced reasonably,
1:06:18we have some monitor choice for Mac users.
1:06:21And that's good 'cause wow, we were in the desert
1:06:24for a very long time.
1:06:26- Chi is back.
1:06:27Chi 2.
1:06:29- It never left.
1:06:31- The sequel to Chi, Chi 2.
1:06:33- Chi harder.
1:06:35Chi 2, Chi harder.
1:06:36- Too furious.
1:06:38Is it Chi 2, 2 magnetic?
1:06:41We'll go with that one.
1:06:41That's it, that's what we're gonna land on.
1:06:44Chi 2 is a new unified wireless charging standard
1:06:47that is built on MagSafe charging technology
1:06:50supply by Apple to the consortium.
1:06:52This is the wildest piece of this story to me.
1:06:54'Cause like, when I saw this story, I was like,
1:06:56"Oh, the new Qi is gonna have magnets."
1:06:59- They knocked off MagSafe.
1:07:00- Yeah, but it turns out Apple is a part of Qi,
1:07:03but they were like, "Yeah, sure, here you go."
1:07:04They gave the information.
1:07:06And so this is how you do it,
1:07:08and we're gonna work with you on it.
1:07:09And now the new Qi will support magnets
1:07:12and it will work to allow for faster charging.
1:07:15The reason that MagSafe can do faster charging than Qi
1:07:18is 'cause you can confirm the connection is secure
1:07:21with the magnets, right?
1:07:22So you can supply more power without there being heat issues
1:07:26because you know where the charger is
1:07:29and you know where the coil is in relationship
1:07:31to each other.
1:07:32I've read some articles about this.
1:07:36Currently it's unknown, it's just unknown,
1:07:39if G2 products and the current MagSafe
1:07:43will work well together.
1:07:45- Yeah, that's weird, right?
1:07:46- Right, so, and Apple is going to use ChiTu, apparently,
1:07:50according to the consortium.
1:07:53- Right, so we may have a MagSafe schism or we may not.
1:07:56- Yeah, we just don't know.
1:07:57And like, this is what, so I read an article on The Verge,
1:08:00where they were interviewing someone
1:08:02from the Chi standards body, and they were--
1:08:06- The Chi Consortium, yeah. - Consortium.
1:08:07They're just kinda like, Apple's gonna do a thing,
1:08:10we don't know. (laughs)
1:08:11It's like, all right, fair enough.
1:08:13- Yeah, but Apple is in the consortium
1:08:15and contributed this. - Yeah.
1:08:16And this is not, I mean, this is what happened
1:08:18with Thunderbolt, essentially.
1:08:20- Matos is the same. - Yes, that's true.
1:08:22This is the way Apple does standards,
1:08:24which is they participate and then they invent
1:08:26their own thing and contribute it as a standard.
1:08:28- Yeah, we would really like it
1:08:30if you would just do the thing we did.
1:08:32- Yeah, they roll into the cheek and sort of shoo
1:08:34and they're like, "Oh, this is pretty good,
1:08:35"this is pretty good, okay, we fixed all your crap here."
1:08:38- Nice standard you got there.
1:08:40- Yeah. - Be ashamed
1:08:41if something happens to it. - Something happened to it.
1:08:43But no, in this place, it'll be great
1:08:44if something happened to it
1:08:45because Apple's gonna fix your broken standard.
1:08:49And anyway, so in the end, what this essentially means
1:08:53is that MagSafe-like things are gonna come to Android phones
1:08:57at some point and that presumably they'll be compatible
1:09:02with future iPhones, but as for the present MagSafe,
1:09:05will it be compatible?
1:09:06It's unknown.
1:09:08I would be surprised if it's incompatible, but who knows?
1:09:11- Jason, would you like to hear my conspiracy theory
1:09:13on this, if you wanna pop your conspiracy theory hat on.
1:09:16- It's a beanie with a propeller.
1:09:20- Yeah, perfect.
1:09:21So, Chi-2 works on iPhones, works on Android phones,
1:09:26or whatever, that is a common charger.
1:09:31- Yes, it is.
1:09:32- Building the future for no USB-C port on the iPhone.
1:09:36Right?
1:09:38I don't know if they can make this work,
1:09:41but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple wanted
1:09:43to really play ball on this, to try and help them out for the future, right? That there
1:09:48could be a future where this could be seen as common enough, and then they can really
1:09:52just go down the route that they want to go down to, which is just magsafe for everything.
1:09:56I feel like Chi was already that, more or less. I don't think the magnets make that
1:09:59much difference, but sure. I don't know, man.
1:10:01Sure, I'm going to let you have your conspiracy. I'm going to let you have it.
1:10:04But conspiracy theories, they're not based in logic, right? That's just, they're
1:10:07just saying to talk about. You're right. You're right. And finally,
1:10:09ports can be closed off and Apple's grand vision will come to pass of the portless iPhone.
1:10:16Stronger magnets are the goal with G2 as well.
1:10:18That's right. Well, it's how do they work? That's the whole thing.
1:10:23The last thing I wanted to mention in CES is that matter was everywhere. Everything's
1:10:29got matter in it.
1:10:30It's fitting that CES, a place famous for product announcements that never quite ship,
1:10:36embrace matter, a standard that sort of hasn't happened.
1:10:39- Yeah, yeah.
1:10:40I'm gonna put in the show notes a YouTube video.
1:10:43- Bad news for matter.
1:10:44Matter is now part of the indeterminate unknown state
1:10:48of CES products of does it exist or not?
1:10:51Like, I don't know.
1:10:53Maybe, eventually, or maybe not.
1:10:55- I'm gonna put into the show notes a YouTube video
1:10:58from Shane Watley, who was one of the kind of home kit
1:11:02creators that were introduced to me when I spoke about this
1:11:04in the show a while ago.
1:11:06He was at CES and just has a rundown
1:11:08of like all the major players and the products
1:11:10that they're bringing to market.
1:11:12But there were two specific ones
1:11:14that I wanted to talk about particularly.
1:11:16So Acara have two products coming out,
1:11:19which are very interesting.
1:11:20One is the first HomeKit secure video,
1:11:24wireless video doorbell.
1:11:26That is exactly what I want from a product.
1:11:30So I'm really intrigued to see how this works out.
1:11:33The next is a smart lock with home key support.
1:11:36So their lock is actually really interesting.
1:11:40It's like a little panel with a keypad on it.
1:11:43So you can use a keypad or it has a fingerprint sensor.
1:11:45So you can use a fingerprint.
1:11:47It also has the ability to have a key and home key.
1:11:49It was like everything.
1:11:51So I think this is a really interesting product
1:11:56from Okara and I've been very happy
1:11:59with my Okara stuff so far.
1:12:00So I'm hoping that I will be able to get that doorbell
1:12:03and make it work for me because that is the product
1:12:05that I've been looking for.
1:12:07Then lastly is, you know, ember mugs, right?
1:12:10They're the mugs that have the heating elements in them.
1:12:13- Yeah, I'm holding one right now.
1:12:14- I forgot that you had one of those.
1:12:17Did we talk about this on the show?
1:12:18- We did because, I think, because two things.
1:12:22One is I got it on a, I think Prime Day
1:12:26or pre-Prime Day kind of thing.
1:12:27I got it for cheap.
1:12:28And because people are like,
1:12:31oh, I just, I just microwave my, whatever.
1:12:34It was like, well, you know,
1:12:35I leave my tea sitting here and it gets cool
1:12:37and now it doesn't.
1:12:38It stays that temperature forever, which is great.
1:12:40Or for until the battery runs out,
1:12:41which happens pretty quickly, but.
1:12:43- It was a snow talk question apparently,
1:12:45says Sava who submitted that snow talk question.
1:12:47- And the timely part of it was that the Rishi Sunak,
1:12:51the prime minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
1:12:54he owns an Ember mug and somebody took a picture of him
1:13:00with an ember mug before he was the prime minister.
1:13:02And it was used when he became prime minister
1:13:04as an example of how he is an out of touch rich guy
1:13:08who doesn't understand regular people's needs
1:13:10because he's using an ember mug, which I'd be like,
1:13:12I think that maybe you could count how many houses he owns
1:13:15and that might be a better example, but okay, sure.
1:13:18The ember mug splurge on Amazon is the reason
1:13:22that he is out of touch.
1:13:23- Can I ask a question of you real quick?
1:13:25Great Britain and Northern Ireland, what was that?
1:13:27- United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
1:13:30right? He's the... you gotta... he's the United Kingdom!
1:13:32Okay, so he's Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, but I started to say Great Britain,
1:13:35and then I had to say Northern Ireland.
1:13:36Oh, okay, okay, that makes sense then.
1:13:38Because he's not just the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, he's Prime Minister of
1:13:42all of GB.
1:13:44Right, but...
1:13:46He's the President of England, mate!
1:13:48It was just very, like, brain-concusing.
1:13:51I had to throw Northern Ireland in. Shoutout to Belfast. Come on.
1:13:55You were just gonna say Great Britain, right? And then, so then, you did an about-one.
1:13:59- And that's not accurate.
1:14:00He's not just the Prime Minister of Great Britain.
1:14:02- Right, but we call him the United Kingdom.
1:14:04So like that, yes.
1:14:05- But I went down the rung.
1:14:07- He's the President of California
1:14:08and all of the other states.
1:14:10- Yes, well, for now.
1:14:12If you buy an Ember mug.
1:14:15- Anyway, so yes, you do have an Ember mug.
1:14:20The new Ember travel mug, they have a travel mug.
1:14:22I think the travel mug was their first product
1:14:25and then they had the regular mug,
1:14:27which I think is what you have.
1:14:28- Yes, I just have the regular mug.
1:14:30I don't have this giant travel thingy.
1:14:31I just have, it's literally a mug with a thing
1:14:34in the bottom that keeps my tea warm.
1:14:37- But the new one, so it's a travel mug, right?
1:14:40So you take it out and about,
1:14:41is gonna support the Firemind network,
1:14:43which I think is genius,
1:14:44and more products should support this.
1:14:46- Right, because it's actually a thing
1:14:48that you would take out of the house,
1:14:49whereas my Ember mug doesn't go outside the house ever,
1:14:52'cause that would be, no, ridiculous.
1:14:56But this is a travel mug, so it makes sense.
1:14:57- Sure, why not?
1:14:58- If you make a product that leaves the home
1:15:00and has Bluetooth in it, it should support,
1:15:02fine, my opinion, I think that's a great idea.
1:15:05- By the way, I wanna mention this
1:15:06'cause I did have a conversation with people
1:15:08about the Ember mug where they're like,
1:15:09I don't understand why you would have that,
1:15:10I don't want a mug that's got an interface and all that.
1:15:12And all I will say to that is,
1:15:15I mean, this travel mug has,
1:15:17I'm looking at the MacRumors story
1:15:19by a friend of the show, Joe Rossignol.
1:15:21And he, so he put an Ember supplied art
1:15:27of their mug and it's got like a plus and minus
1:15:31like interface area and a temperature readout on it.
1:15:35The mug that I've got has no interface.
1:15:38There's a button on the bottom that you can use
1:15:40to turn it on and off and you can pair it with Bluetooth
1:15:43in order to set your target temperature.
1:15:45So I did that when I got it.
1:15:47Since then, I use it like a mug.
1:15:51There's no fiddling with anything.
1:15:54You know, its interface will say,
1:15:55"Oh, I've heated up your tea."
1:15:57and it's like, I don't care.
1:15:58All I do is put it in its charger.
1:16:00No, all I do is put it in its charger.
1:16:02And then when it's morning and I want tea,
1:16:04I take it out of its charger,
1:16:05which is like a little saucer,
1:16:07basically in my kitchen counter,
1:16:09and put the tea in it.
1:16:10And it comes, it knows that there's hot stuff in it.
1:16:13It comes on.
1:16:15When the temperature goes below the threshold,
1:16:16it keeps it back up to the threshold.
1:16:18There's no interface to it.
1:16:19And I just wanted to say that because
1:16:22if I had to fiddle around with my phone
1:16:24every time I drank a cup of tea,
1:16:25I would have sent it back, right?
1:16:27Like I'm not interested in that at all.
1:16:29But at least there are on-device controls
1:16:33for this travel mug.
1:16:34So you're not having to go to an app to do it.
1:16:38But still, I don't think I would endorse a product
1:16:41that requires me to mess around with a display on it
1:16:44or something like that for something like a teacup.
1:16:46I just treat it like a teacup.
1:16:47That's the good thing about it.
1:16:49- I wanna give you one last piece of like,
1:16:52support on the Ember mug is like a thing
1:16:54of why it's not ridiculous and why it's better than microwaving.
1:17:00So I follow a very popular YouTube coffee guy called James Hoffman and he did a review
1:17:06of the Ember mug some time ago, like four years ago.
1:17:10And I'm assuming this is the same for tea, but one of the things that he talks about
1:17:13is like if you let a cup of coffee go cold and then put it in the microwave and heat
1:17:17it up again, it changes the taste of it because the reheating of going cold and then reheating
1:17:24again, will change the taste. There's some science to that. Go watch his video if you
1:17:27want the science. So the idea, so what the Ember Mug does, it never lets the tea go cold,
1:17:33so it will keep it tasting the same. So there is a benefit to this product if you enjoy
1:17:38the thing you're drinking from the mug. Right, and if it goes for an infinite amount of time,
1:17:42right, it's gonna be terrible, but in the short term it makes it better. And I'll tell
1:17:45you, you know, I, again, I've got it on sale, it is kind of a ridiculous thing, I resisted
1:17:51for a long time. You don't have to, I don't think you need to do that, but like you can buy whatever
1:17:55you want. But I got it, and there are moments where I'm reminded why I have this thing instead
1:18:01of using one of my fun mugs that I that I own, and the answer is I got half a cup of tea still left
1:18:08in it and I stopped drinking it and put it down and then I pick it up and I taste it and it's
1:18:12exactly the temperature that I would want it to be right out of the pot when I wanted to start
1:18:19start drinking it. And it's delightful because that's that moment where you go, "Oh." In
1:18:24a normal mug, it'd be like, "Oh, it's gotten cold." And you go back out and maybe put a
1:18:27little more tea in it and put it in the microwave and heat it back up and then go back to bed
1:18:31or whatever. And I just pick it up and I'm like, "Oh yeah, it's still, this is the, this
1:18:34is the little thing doing its job." So it's, it's otherwise invisible in terms of interface.
1:18:39I think we've said this before about smart stuff. Like my favorite smart tech stuff is
1:18:44after you set it up, does not need to be played with, right?
1:18:49Like it'll just do what it needs to do.
1:18:51And like, I don't need to know about its Bluetooth.
1:18:54I don't need to know about its battery.
1:18:55All I know is that I wash it out
1:18:57and park it on its little home and drink tea out of it.
1:19:00And otherwise I know nothing about it
1:19:03as a technology product.
1:19:04And that's how I like it.
1:19:05- The best kinds of smart products are
1:19:08when the app allows for, if you say,
1:19:10set up and troubleshooting.
1:19:11And then other than that,
1:19:13you just use it like you would want to.
1:19:17Like life.
1:19:18Like life.
1:19:19Use it like life.
1:19:20Dennis.
1:19:21That's the new slogan.
1:19:22Of ours.
1:19:23Richie Sunac says.
1:19:24Oh, ok.
1:19:25Embermug.
1:19:26Richie Sunac says to use it like life.
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1:20:46Let's finish up today with some Ask Upgrade questions.
1:20:51Jonathan asks, with the holidays ending, what do you do with the holiday specific items
1:20:56you have in HomeKit? We have a smart outlet for our Christmas tree that Siri constantly
1:21:01reports isn't responding.
1:21:03I wanted to ask this question Jason because yesterday I took down my Christmas tree and
1:21:07we had the Hue lights, it's a bit of follow up, really nice.
1:21:10I was very happy with that purchase, I bought the Hue Christmas lights remember?
1:21:14Way back when they came out.
1:21:15Really like them, they are very good, you can obviously go wild with the colors but
1:21:20they have some really nice effects.
1:21:22I was very happy with my purchase of the Hue Christmas lights.
1:21:24But then this morning I was doing something in my home kit and it had the little dot and
1:21:28it's like the Christmas lights aren't responding because I've unplugged them and now I don't
1:21:32Like what am I supposed to do?
1:21:34Do I delete them from HomeKit?
1:21:35Like what do you do?
1:21:36- Yeah, I mean, that's what I do is depending,
1:21:41I have some, let's see, it varies.
1:21:46When I'm just putting them away,
1:21:48I usually just take them away and I leave them.
1:21:50I don't rename them, but if it bothers you,
1:21:54then yeah, you just remove them
1:21:55and then you re add them next time.
1:21:58If you're next time you need to use them.
1:22:00So it really, it varies for me.
1:22:01I don't do as good a job of that.
1:22:03I have some, like, I can't connect to this one switches
1:22:07that are just unplugged,
1:22:08but you can always just remove them and that'll be fine.
1:22:14Just repair them.
1:22:14It just makes sure you've got the little pairing code.
1:22:16It'll be fine.
1:22:17- Yeah, but it's, yeah.
1:22:20I mean, that's probably what I will end up doing.
1:22:22I wish there was just a way to be like,
1:22:24don't worry about this one, you know?
1:22:25Like, just don't worry about this one.
1:22:27It's fine, but.
1:22:28- Oh, I agree.
1:22:29- I agree, you should be able to put it in timeout
1:22:32or something, but I think the answer is you remove it,
1:22:35and that's how you put it in timeout.
1:22:37- Put it in the little penalty box?
1:22:40- Uh, yeah, exactly.
1:22:41You think about what you've done, which is your job well.
1:22:46Good job, but now it's over.
1:22:47- Andrew asks, "If you use a MacBook and an external display,
1:22:52"do you keep the MacBook open or closed?
1:22:55"Personally, I can't stand using a tiny MacBook screen
1:22:58next to a big display, it feels off balance.
1:23:00Do you ever do this?
1:23:02Do you ever do this?
1:23:03Like plug your laptop in?
1:23:05- No, I used to at work and I started,
1:23:09I had a stand that was a,
1:23:12it was a VESA mount for a display
1:23:16and then it had a little laptop thing right next to it.
1:23:19So you could put your laptop in it
1:23:20and it would be kind of like next to your display open.
1:23:23And what I very rapidly realized was
1:23:27the little display set back, I never used it.
1:23:30So then I ran them closed, and then at some point
1:23:33I got rid of that stand and just ran with lid closed.
1:23:37So my answer from back when I did this
1:23:38is I always ran it lid closed.
1:23:40- Yeah, I do it exactly the same.
1:23:44So like when I use it right now, it's just like,
1:23:47it just feels, I know I could have extra screen real estate
1:23:49and I do like having multiple screens,
1:23:52but I feel like there has to be some kind of
1:23:54relative size consistency and a 14 inch screen next to a 28 inch screen just feels off.
1:24:01Right, like there's just something about that that's not right to me so I also will close it.
1:24:06And like I tried doing the thing where you raise the screen, right, so maybe that would help but
1:24:11that didn't help either. There was always just an issue with the with the relative sizing that I
1:24:16did not like and so I also run lid closed on my laptop when plugged into my studio display every
1:24:23day. Kevin asks, "Jason thinks that the regular iPhone 14 will get to Dynamic Island, and
1:24:30Mark Gorman does now too, but what about MacBook notches? Dynamic Islands for everyone?"
1:24:37I mean, in the long run, on laptops, I mean we're already there basically, for any laptop
1:24:46that matters. So yes, but will it be a dynamic island? I think no, because I think the menu
1:24:53bar is your dynamic island on the Mac, if that's what Kevin means. And on desktop, I
1:25:00again I kind of don't see it because the menu bar is there and there's no need to do a cutout
1:25:04on the Mac, so I don't think it's going to happen there. iPad's an interesting question,
1:25:10whether they might do a dynamic island there, but you know, I don't know.
1:25:13- iPad is that weird middle child, right?
1:25:16Like does it do what the Mac does
1:25:18or does it do what the iPhone does?
1:25:22- 'Cause it has a status bar, right?
1:25:23So it could just sort of expand the status bar
1:25:26and use that and not need a dynamic island.
1:25:29Or Apple could really push the design on the iPad
1:25:33out even closer to the edges of the display
1:25:36and have a cutout and do the dynamic island.
1:25:38It's really sort of a question of how they wanna do it.
1:25:41But on the Mac, the menu bar is the dynamic island
1:25:43And I think the notch is there
1:25:45as long as they need it to be there.
1:25:46But I think it's just gonna be,
1:25:48I don't see how,
1:25:50I mean, it's possible that they would add a dynamic island
1:25:52to that notch,
1:25:54but it would just basically be like
1:25:57around the outsides of it.
1:25:58And I don't know,
1:25:59you're just kind of replicating the Mac menu bar
1:26:00at that point.
1:26:01I don't see the point.
1:26:02- Okay, asked, have you both seen "Knives Out,
1:26:06Glass Onion?"
1:26:06What did you think?
1:26:08- Yeah, I loved it.
1:26:09We watched it Christmas night,
1:26:12Boxing Day night, something like that, the whole family.
1:26:14And we loved it.
1:26:16- Absolute delight of a movie.
1:26:18No spoilers, particularly.
1:26:21- Bring me more Benoit Blanc.
1:26:22I want more, I mean, they signed for two movies,
1:26:24so there will be more Benoit Blanc on Netflix.
1:26:27- These movies make me happy
1:26:29because I feel like Daniel Craig is happy.
1:26:31I feel like he's only doing,
1:26:34like you would only take these movies on
1:26:37for the fun of it.
1:26:39Because he does the accent,
1:26:40which he does not need to do, right?
1:26:42It is not necessary.
1:26:44The accent is, like, you know,
1:26:45it's not needed for the character,
1:26:48but he does it, and I just think,
1:26:51he just looks like he's having a great time in these movies,
1:26:53which makes me happy 'cause I love Daniel Craig,
1:26:55but also these movies are just fantastic.
1:26:57Like, I think they have a proven formula now
1:27:00of like, he goes and does a thing,
1:27:02and it's now like a bunch of people whose faces you know,
1:27:05or like, you really know who they are.
1:27:07like this time way like bigger budget cost I feel like right and yeah I hope they just continue to
1:27:16make these movies for as long as you know Daniel Craig and Ryan Johnson want to make them because
1:27:21this movie like I love Knives Out and Knives Out 2 I think is better than Knives Out in every way
1:27:29even though I already love Knives Out you know what I mean like I just think they
1:27:34had an increased budget and I think that that really helped the second movie. Just a treat.
1:27:39If you would like to send in an Ask Upgrade question, just click the link in your show
1:27:50notes to submit feedback or go to Upgradefeedback.com or you can send them in with
1:27:57of question mark ask upgrade in the relay FM members discord and you can send in your
1:28:03questions to us that way for us to answer on a future episode of the show if you want
1:28:09to find us online in the meantime go to six colors dot com for Jason's work what else
1:28:17the incomparable obviously lots of shows here on relay FM but then what's the next part
1:28:23for you right now.
1:28:25- What do you mean?
1:28:26- Is there like, you can, is that Jason L?
1:28:28- What's next?
1:28:29- @jasonl@masterdawn.social, is that the correct one?
1:28:32- No, let's not talk about social.
1:28:33Let's just not do it. - None of that?
1:28:34- All right, follow up, how about this?
1:28:37If you wanna follow up about anything we talked about,
1:28:40I pay attention to the show,
1:28:41follow up channel in the Relay FM member discord.
1:28:45- Lovely, also fantastic.
1:28:47And you can get access to that
1:28:49and you can hear about our experiences
1:28:51of using Freeform for today's episode by going to getupgradeplus.com where you can sign up
1:28:57and become a member and you'll get ad-free longer episodes of Upgrade each and every
1:29:01week.
1:29:02If you want to find me online, you can go to mikehurley.net where you can find all of
1:29:05my various projects and I am @imike on Instagram.
1:29:09I'm still going for that one.
1:29:10That's my social place.
1:29:11But of course I am here on Reel AFM on many shows and there are lots of wonderful shows
1:29:17here at Reel AFM that you can add to your podcast queue.
1:29:20Thanks again to our sponsors of this week's episode, the fine folk over at TextExpander,
1:29:26Capital One, and ExpressVPN.
1:29:28But most of all, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.
1:29:32Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.
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