Qi2: Qi Harder


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 441.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,

00:00:16   Text Expander, and Capital One.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snow.

00:00:21   Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:22   - Hi, Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:24   - I'm very good, my friend.

00:00:25   I'm very good indeed.

00:00:26   I have a snow talk question for you

00:00:27   to begin today's episode of the show.

00:00:29   - Okay.

00:00:30   - It comes from Michael, who wants to know,

00:00:32   does Jason cut his pizzas into six or eight slices

00:00:37   and does he use a pizza cutter or a knife to achieve this?

00:00:40   - Are we back on the pizza?

00:00:41   We're back on the pizza question, huh?

00:00:42   - We talk about pizza a lot on the show,

00:00:44   sometimes during sponsored content, but.

00:00:47   - Sometimes during sponsored content.

00:00:49   Upgrade Plus subscribers may not hear that content,

00:00:52   but it's there.

00:00:54   The answer is eight.

00:00:56   I cut pizza into eight slices.

00:00:59   - Okay.

00:01:00   - In part because it's the most logical thing to do

00:01:04   and in part because I have,

00:01:08   when they're all home, a family of four

00:01:10   and that gets two pieces to everybody.

00:01:12   - Yeah.

00:01:13   - So yeah, you slice it half halfsies

00:01:16   and then you slice it the other halfsies

00:01:17   and now you've got four giant unwieldy pieces of pizza.

00:01:21   And so then you slice it at a, you know, rotated a little,

00:01:24   you slice the halfsies again two more times

00:01:27   and you got eight pieces of pizza,

00:01:30   it's the right way to do it.

00:01:32   That's, I'm not gonna,

00:01:35   people will debate pineapple if we need to, but--

00:01:39   - There's no debate. - Somehow,

00:01:40   I feel like the judgment of John Syracuse

00:01:42   is hovering over me right now, it's very strange.

00:01:45   The, anyway, and I use a pizza cutter,

00:01:48   I use the Zyliss pizza cutter available on Amazon,

00:01:52   maybe we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:01:54   It is a weird thing where it's like a big stainless steel

00:01:59   circle cutting blade inside a plastic holder.

00:02:03   So it grips really well and is great for cutting pizza

00:02:07   or quesadillas or anything else that you might need

00:02:12   to cut in a radial fashion.

00:02:16   - I have a pizza cutter similar to this

00:02:18   made by a company called Joseph and Joseph.

00:02:20   And it looks kind of like yours.

00:02:22   It's like the wheel, but with the plastic thing, you can hold on the top and you can just wheel it along

00:02:27   and put your full force into it, which is the good thing, as opposed to the one that has the handle on it.

00:02:32   I feel like I'm able to put more force into the cutting of the pizza.

00:02:36   Yeah.

00:02:37   I prefer smaller slices of pizza, so I am on board with you with the eight slice rather than six slice, you know?

00:02:45   Although I should be-- I want to be clear here, because I've heard-- not you, but I've heard people say this, that

00:02:50   they think the slice is like the atom of pizza, but of course the slice scales with the size of

00:02:58   the pizza. If you cut eight pieces, eight slices out of a small pizza or a large pizza, the slices

00:03:04   change size, right? So when people say I prefer one piece or one slice, two slices or whatever,

00:03:10   like, well, you're gonna get a slice. So if you had an enormous, let me put it this way, if I had

00:03:16   had a pizza the size of my dining room table, I would probably cut it into more than eight.

00:03:22   Although at that point, that's why they do in Chicago, they do that party cut thing,

00:03:28   I'm sure Detroit and I'm sure there are other places that do this, where they cut it, they

00:03:32   give up. Beyond a certain point, they give up because the slices are going to be very

00:03:37   long and narrow, and so they start cutting them into squares essentially. But if you're

00:03:41   maintaining the fundamental dignity of a circular pizza, at some point it will, as it enlarges,

00:03:49   it will become unwieldy and that involves a lot of math involving pi, and not just the

00:03:53   pizza pie but the actual number of pi, and we're not going to get into that because this

00:03:57   is not a podcast about math.

00:03:59   Thankfully, because I'm bad at it. So, it wouldn't be a very good podcast, it wouldn't

00:04:04   be a very educational podcast because I'm not good at math.

00:04:08   If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own, we have a new way for

00:04:12   you to do that.

00:04:13   But another way that you can do it is question mark Snell Talk in the Relay FM members discord.

00:04:17   You can send out a tweet with the hashtag Snell Talk, but let's talk about the brand

00:04:21   new way that you can send in feedback for the show.

00:04:25   So on the Relay FM website now for every show that is currently using this, we're developing

00:04:31   this tool, some shows are using it, some aren't, but hopefully over time more shows will be.

00:04:36   is a new button that says submit feedback and you can send it opens a form on our website

00:04:42   where you can write your thoughts comments send in your follow up whatever it is and

00:04:47   it goes into our system so we can read that before the beginning of every episode each

00:04:52   week and pick out what we want to talk about we actually kind of mentioned on the last

00:04:56   episode that it might be available and it did like I think on Tuesday so we actually

00:05:01   got quite a bit of feedback for this episode.

00:05:04   So there's some follow up I've got here.

00:05:06   And so I believe this Snow Talk question,

00:05:09   and I think all of today's Ask Upgrade questions

00:05:13   were submitted via the new feedback tool.

00:05:15   So it's in the link of the show notes for every episode.

00:05:18   But you can also go anytime to upgradefeedback.com

00:05:22   and it takes you to the form.

00:05:25   You gotta have URLs, man.

00:05:27   I'm all about it.

00:05:28   - I love it that you bought a domain for this.

00:05:30   That's a surprise, genuine surprise to me.

00:05:32   And I don't know why I should be surprised

00:05:34   that there's upgradefeedback.com.

00:05:36   Of course there is.

00:05:37   - I like new URLs.

00:05:38   I think that they help people remember things.

00:05:40   - Who needs slashes?

00:05:41   - No one wants slashes.

00:05:42   - You say a slash and you've already lost.

00:05:44   - Yeah, if it's a horror film, that's fine.

00:05:47   But otherwise, no slashes around here.

00:05:48   You know what I mean?

00:05:49   So we recommend that you use this now

00:05:53   for follow-up and ask upgrade and snow talk.

00:05:57   - Hey Myke, what if there was a top level domain

00:05:59   that was ./

00:06:00   Would that be confusing?

00:06:01   - I would love that actually.

00:06:02   I would buy a lot of those.

00:06:03   - HTTP colon slash slash, but not the word slash.

00:06:07   - Dot slash.

00:06:08   - Upgrade dot slash, but not the character slash,

00:06:10   the word slash.

00:06:12   Not the guitarist from Guns N' Roses slash.

00:06:14   Actually he could run it.

00:06:15   - We're getting off topic here, Jason.

00:06:16   - He could run the dot slash top level domain.

00:06:19   He could.

00:06:19   - We're gonna bring you in here, okay?

00:06:20   Come on.

00:06:21   - Guitarist dot slash.

00:06:23   - We're on focus here.

00:06:24   So you can use the new feedback tool

00:06:27   to send in anything that you want.

00:06:29   In the future, because we're developing this

00:06:31   as part of our CMS and website, in the future,

00:06:34   we're going to have probably a dropdown.

00:06:37   So you could say, this is Ask Upgrade.

00:06:39   This is Snowtalk.

00:06:40   People have been very kindly saying right now,

00:06:43   but you don't have to worry about it.

00:06:44   You can let us decide for the time being.

00:06:47   This is very much a 1.0 of this feature.

00:06:50   But going forward, this and the Discord

00:06:53   will be the best places to send feedback and questions.

00:06:56   I would say for the moment, at least,

00:06:58   this is the best way to send in follow-up

00:07:00   for the show, I think, for us.

00:07:03   So we'd really appreciate it if you used it.

00:07:05   And if you have any thoughts about the system,

00:07:08   also feel free to put those in a feedback for us.

00:07:13   - Sure.

00:07:14   - So thank you to everybody who has already tested out

00:07:17   the system and thank you to all of you that will use it.

00:07:20   We've been talking about this on and off,

00:07:21   but especially for me not being on Twitter anymore

00:07:25   and not using Mastodon, I wanna make sure

00:07:27   that we still have a good free way

00:07:29   for people to send in feedback to the show.

00:07:31   So we worked on this at "Real AFM" and here it is.

00:07:36   Jason, should we tell people

00:07:38   about the Upgrade Plus Challenge segment?

00:07:41   - I think we should just to clue them in

00:07:44   on what we're doing here.

00:07:45   And one is being undertaken even as we speak,

00:07:50   although you can't tell, I assure you it is.

00:07:54   So we have a new recurring segment on Upgrade Plus.

00:07:59   It starts this week and we'll probably do this at least once a month,

00:08:02   but maybe in an increasing frequency,

00:08:06   where we're going to pick a challenge that we will complete as part of Upgrade

00:08:11   Plus. Thanks to our innovative friends,

00:08:13   Dubai Friday and Reconcilable Differences for pioneering the

00:08:18   challenge format on podcast.

00:08:20   So the challenge for this week's episode was to use and is to use Freeform for our show notes planning.

00:08:28   So this came from a conversation that Jason and I had between the two of us, and you were saying that,

00:08:33   you know, you tried out Freeform and you weren't really sure how to use it,

00:08:37   and so you said, "What if we use this to plan an episode of the show?" So here we are.

00:08:42   Mac Power users just did this for their Freeform episode as well, which I listened to in preparation for this episode.

00:08:48   To be clear, we came up with this idea separate from MPU.

00:08:53   And in fact, when I mentioned to David Sparks

00:08:56   when I visited him that we were thinking of doing this,

00:08:58   he said, oh, we just did that.

00:09:01   So all right, fair enough.

00:09:03   But we're doing it now, this episode.

00:09:05   If it seems disorganized or especially extra

00:09:09   greatly organized, it's because we are

00:09:13   using a different tool for it.

00:09:14   and we'll report on our feelings about it

00:09:18   after the show is over at the end of Upgrade

00:09:21   in the Upgrade Plus segment for members.

00:09:24   So that's where it'll be.

00:09:25   And then what will happen after that.

00:09:27   Like I said, I think last week, listening

00:09:29   to your State of the Apps on Cortex,

00:09:33   I was thinking about how I need to get more out of my comfort

00:09:36   zone with stuff because I've got such a refined, let's say,

00:09:40   suite of tools that I use every day.

00:09:44   I like the idea of being pulled out of my comfort zone,

00:09:47   either by you challenging me or by me challenging myself,

00:09:51   but to do things differently or use different apps

00:09:54   or whatever.

00:09:55   So we don't know what form this will take.

00:09:57   We really don't, but we are starting it now

00:10:00   and it will not even be every week.

00:10:02   It will be an occasional recurring segment in Upgrade Plus,

00:10:05   but hopefully no less than one a month.

00:10:08   - Yep, it will be recurring.

00:10:10   Like this is the beginning of a new part of Upgrade Plus.

00:10:13   So we'll still be doing the typical things

00:10:14   where we bring up different types of content,

00:10:16   but this is gonna be like a structured thing

00:10:18   that we do every now and again.

00:10:19   If you want Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com.

00:10:22   That's another URL, Jason, that I got.

00:10:24   - I know, that one's been around.

00:10:25   That's not a surprise domain, though.

00:10:27   - Getupgradeplus.com.

00:10:29   You can sign up and we'll appreciate your support

00:10:31   and we hope you enjoy this additional content.

00:10:34   I have just a couple of pieces of follow-up

00:10:37   before we get on with, I think, a pretty packed show today.

00:10:41   There's been a lot. - I can't tell.

00:10:42   Is that, are we doing that based on the surface area

00:10:44   in free form? - Shush.

00:10:46   We're not talking about free form now.

00:10:48   - Okay, sorry. - Okay, none of that.

00:10:49   - Right, all right.

00:10:51   - Josh wrote in to let us know that titanium

00:10:53   can in fact be anodized.

00:10:55   We were talking about this on the last episode

00:10:56   and I was wondering if Apple moved to titanium,

00:10:59   would the colors have to change for the phones,

00:11:02   if they moved to titanium on the iPhone?

00:11:04   Apparently they can not only be anodized,

00:11:06   the colors can be quite vibrant.

00:11:08   So it seems like they can make that work for them

00:11:10   if they wanted to.

00:11:11   - And spoilers for our next segment,

00:11:13   but there's a rumor that that's what they're doing

00:11:15   is titanium for the iPhone Pro.

00:11:18   - And Apple's Q1 results are coming up every second

00:11:22   it has been announced.

00:11:24   - Oh yeah, that's gonna be, what a day that's gonna be.

00:11:27   - It's gonna be a bloodbath.

00:11:28   I can't wait, I'm really excited about it.

00:11:31   Like I always am, but yeah.

00:11:32   - I feel like with all the headlines

00:11:34   and with all the warnings, what Apple has done is,

00:11:37   we're gonna say that it's a bloodbath,

00:11:39   but in some ways the bloodbath has already happened

00:11:41   because everybody expects it to be bad.

00:11:43   And of course it's like Wall Street, sorry,

00:11:45   sorry, investors, Wall Street's like gambling

00:11:48   in the sense that it's all about like,

00:11:50   you get the information and you make your choices.

00:11:53   And so everybody on the street has heard all the bad news.

00:11:57   So the stock has gone down because they're like,

00:11:59   okay, well, bad news is coming.

00:12:00   They're anticipating the bad news.

00:12:02   So what that might mean is in February 2nd,

00:12:05   even though the numbers look bad,

00:12:07   Wall Street may react positively to it

00:12:10   because it might not be as bad as they thought it would be.

00:12:14   So that's gonna be even more interesting to see.

00:12:16   And how is Apple spinning what's happened in the month

00:12:20   since the end of the quarter, if they say,

00:12:23   "Look, by the end of December, we were back online

00:12:26   and things are going great."

00:12:27   And that would buoy the stock

00:12:29   and how Apple is viewed in the market.

00:12:30   So it's gonna be, I think,

00:12:32   the most interesting Apple results release in years, really.

00:12:37   So can't wait to see it.

00:12:38   - But as is typical for this show,

00:12:40   whatever Wall Street say we don't care about,

00:12:42   what we're intrigued in is how they tell this story.

00:12:46   Like how is Apple, when pushed, going to tell the story

00:12:51   of their terrible, horrible, no good quarter, right?

00:12:54   And so I'm fascinated.

00:12:56   - Yeah, exactly.

00:12:57   And that is, I know that, I mean,

00:12:58   there are definitely people who invest in Apple

00:13:00   and care about Apple as a stock,

00:13:02   who read my stuff and listen to our podcasts,

00:13:05   and that's fine, but yes, I think it's important to say

00:13:08   that that's not the lens we use,

00:13:11   the stock price is not the lens we use

00:13:13   to discuss or evaluate the company.

00:13:16   We're much more concerned in sort of the products

00:13:18   and the business as a whole,

00:13:21   like how successful the products

00:13:23   and the other business things that Apple is doing

00:13:26   are how that's all going.

00:13:28   But it's not, we don't have Apple stock,

00:13:32   we're not Apple investors, that's not our focus,

00:13:34   just to be clear.

00:13:35   So the street will do what it will do.

00:13:36   But yes, it's gonna be fascinating to see

00:13:38   what the details are and how Apple explains itself, right?

00:13:43   Like this is Tim.

00:13:44   What's Tim say? - Explain yourself.

00:13:48   - Explain yourself, Tim.

00:13:49   - Yes, that's our first question.

00:13:52   Our first question comes from Myke Hurley of Real AFM.

00:13:54   (laughing)

00:13:56   - Explain yourself.

00:13:57   Tim Cook, explain yourself.

00:13:59   - This is Tim.

00:14:02   How'd you get on this call?

00:14:04   - We try our best to keep you away.

00:14:06   Yeah, you're not a financial analyst. You're the host of that podcast that was once behind me at WWDC. Get off the line!

00:14:17   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by ExpressVPN.

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00:16:23   Jason, the horses have bolted out of the corral,

00:16:27   and they have run amok across the whole town,

00:16:30   making for an absolutely gargantuan-sized

00:16:34   rumor roundup today.

00:16:36   - It's true.

00:16:37   - So we've got a few areas to focus on.

00:16:41   One is like--

00:16:41   - Different pastures, different fields to go in

00:16:45   to bring the horses back in to round them back up.

00:16:47   Okay, got it, got it.

00:16:48   - So we're gonna go down to Germantown right now.

00:16:50   This is, I think, a pretty typical thing from Mark Gurman

00:16:54   at Bloomberg to have like a,

00:16:57   here is my thing for the year or whatever, right?

00:17:00   So like he'll come out and say like,

00:17:02   this is what I'm expecting.

00:17:03   And he maybe brings together some things

00:17:05   that he's been working on

00:17:06   or some like areas that he has been focusing on.

00:17:10   So get a few quotes we're gonna read, Jason,

00:17:12   we can talk about them.

00:17:14   - Sure.

00:17:15   - So just a few quotes from Mark.

00:17:15   "A larger iMac Pro has been on and off Apple's roadmap

00:17:18   and I would be surprised at this point

00:17:20   if it arrives in 2023.

00:17:22   I'm sure you're very sad about that.

00:17:24   - Yeah, I have heard elsewhere that,

00:17:28   the same story basically, I've heard elsewhere that,

00:17:30   I don't wanna say my own sources,

00:17:33   but kind of my own sources that-

00:17:34   - Ooh, look at you, oh, hello.

00:17:37   Hang on, breaking news on the rumor roundup.

00:17:39   We have a new sheriff in town.

00:17:41   - I just wanna assert that it is also my understanding

00:17:45   that the larger iMac has been on and off,

00:17:50   that the existence of doing displays

00:17:52   seems to have been a little bit of a bargain

00:17:55   to not need to do a big iMac anymore

00:17:58   because the displays would cover that

00:18:00   and the Mac studio and all of that.

00:18:02   So anyway, I just wanna corroborate

00:18:05   what Mark is saying here.

00:18:06   Mark is saying it's been on and off,

00:18:07   which is actually more encouraging than what I heard,

00:18:09   which is that it's off.

00:18:10   But I think that this is the thing,

00:18:12   is they go back and forth about it.

00:18:13   I'm surprised because they sold that larger iMac for so long.

00:18:17   And the 24 is not the 27.

00:18:20   But maybe the answer is anybody who wants a bigger iMac

00:18:23   than the 24 should just get a studio display

00:18:25   and a Mac studio.

00:18:27   Thus far, that is essentially what they're saying.

00:18:29   Or a Mac studio and a Mac mini if you want.

00:18:31   Yeah.

00:18:33   Or sorry, Mac, a studio display, so many studios,

00:18:36   so many Macs, a studio display and whatever you want

00:18:39   to attach to it instead of a 27-inch iMac.

00:18:42   So that may not happen.

00:18:43   I'm also surprised at what he says about,

00:18:46   which you didn't mention,

00:18:48   but he continues to insist

00:18:51   that the iMac won't be updated until the M3,

00:18:54   which I'm just surprised

00:18:55   that they would just skip an entire chip generation

00:18:57   with the iMac.

00:18:58   It's their chips.

00:19:00   Is the iMac, Apple talks so much

00:19:02   about the iMac being the flagship of the Mac in many ways.

00:19:04   And it's used in so many cases,

00:19:06   and it's in hotels, and it's in classrooms,

00:19:08   and it's all these places.

00:19:10   And then for them to just sort of be like,

00:19:11   meh, we'll wait an extra chip cycle

00:19:16   before we even bother updating it.

00:19:18   I just, I'm surprised that the iMac seems to be so,

00:19:23   I don't know, I don't know whether it's lower priority

00:19:26   or whether maybe they just think it's good enough,

00:19:28   but I continue to be surprised

00:19:30   that they aren't more enthusiastic about it.

00:19:33   - I think we're too early on in Apple Silicon

00:19:36   to understand if this might be a typical thing

00:19:38   for a lot of products.

00:19:40   - Right, whether they just skip a generation.

00:19:42   - Yeah. - Yeah, maybe so.

00:19:44   We don't know.

00:19:45   - On the Mac Pro, Apple plans to release a Mac Pro

00:19:48   with the M2 Ultra, making it unclear

00:19:51   beyond the machine's expandability

00:19:52   why most users will buy it over the cheaper

00:19:54   and smaller Mac Studio.

00:19:56   In another disappointment, the new Mac Pro

00:19:58   will look identical to the 2019 model.

00:20:01   It will also lack one key feature from the Intel version,

00:20:04   user upgradeable RAM.

00:20:06   That's because the memory is tied directly

00:20:08   to the M2 Ultra's motherboard.

00:20:10   Still, there are two SSD storage slots

00:20:13   and for graphics, media, and networking cards.

00:20:15   - This is information in the sense that it's saying,

00:20:20   here's what is upgradable in this thing.

00:20:23   They're gonna use the existing case,

00:20:25   which he says it's disappointing.

00:20:26   I mean, I guess that's Mark Gurman

00:20:29   putting his own little editorial spin on it.

00:20:31   Although I think there's an implication there

00:20:33   that they were investigating a smaller enclosure

00:20:35   and they've decided,

00:20:36   maybe this is one of those cost saving things, right?

00:20:38   That we heard the reports about how the Mac Pro,

00:20:42   they didn't wanna over-invest in it,

00:20:44   and so they weren't gonna do the quad core chip.

00:20:46   Well, using the existing enclosure

00:20:49   from the last Intel Mac Pro

00:20:51   would be another way to save money.

00:20:53   But within that, he's saying, look,

00:20:55   the memory is inextricably linked.

00:20:57   So the memory is gonna be on the chip packages,

00:21:00   and that's just how it's gonna be.

00:21:01   But he is saying expandable storage, expandable media,

00:21:06   media and networking and graphics cards.

00:21:09   So that's, it sounds to me like that's gonna be

00:21:12   the big change in the Mac Pro from previous

00:21:16   Apple Silicon Macs, right?

00:21:18   Is that they seem to have, I guess, done the work

00:21:21   to be able to use external graphics cards of some kind.

00:21:26   That's not a capability that Apple Silicon has had up to now.

00:21:29   It's all been the onboard GPUs.

00:21:32   But whether they're third-party graphics cards

00:21:34   or whether Apple has built its own custom GPU thing

00:21:39   that they do as an interconnect, and I don't know.

00:21:42   But I think this is actually kind of an encouraging report,

00:21:46   just in the sense that it's more upgradeable.

00:21:51   Yeah, more upgradeable than we maybe thought,

00:21:53   even though RAM is not a part of it.

00:21:55   - Yeah, I mean, I will profess

00:21:58   to not understanding this enough,

00:22:00   but it is intriguing to me that they have seemingly done

00:22:04   the work to allow for graphics that are not part of the chip or part of the package. But

00:22:10   they haven't done that for RAM. They're obviously prioritizing. I actually think that's the

00:22:14   right priority. I think these days it's easier to maybe understand how much RAM you want

00:22:21   and you just get whatever you need. I think for people that want this particular type

00:22:25   of machine, I feel like graphics media and networking cards along with SSD storage solutions

00:22:31   or whatever could be interesting. I'm intrigued by SSD storage slots. Are they just doing M2?

00:22:40   Like the little guys that you plug in? Or are they going to be able to allow you to put

00:22:45   bigger hard drives in there? I don't know. But it doesn't matter. The point is,

00:22:49   it's going to be upgradeable. I am intrigued by what identical to the 2019 model means.

00:22:55   Like is it the same one or is it a smaller version of it? Because I really do wonder if it needs to

00:23:00   to be as physically large, but we'll find out I suppose.

00:23:03   - I think the answer based on Mark Gurman's report here

00:23:06   is that they're gonna use the existing case

00:23:10   whether you need it or not,

00:23:11   they're gonna use the existing case.

00:23:12   So it may be, it may seem awfully empty in there,

00:23:17   but you know, that seems to be

00:23:20   what's gonna be happening here.

00:23:21   So it's fascinating to me,

00:23:23   'cause it does seem a little bit like they had big plans

00:23:25   and then they kind of scaled them back.

00:23:26   - Yep.

00:23:28   The 15 inch MacBook Air is still planned

00:23:30   for release this year.

00:23:32   We'd also spoken in the past on Rumor Roundup

00:23:34   about a 12 inch model that Apple are also looking at.

00:23:38   That is no longer on their near term roadmap,

00:23:40   which I think is probably the right thing.

00:23:42   - I'm disappointed, but at the same time,

00:23:44   I'm actually encouraged because I had kind of,

00:23:48   I keep wish casting and dreaming for a smaller laptop,

00:23:51   but I never really expected them to do it.

00:23:56   I wanted them to do it, but there's a difference,

00:23:57   I guess somewhere in there between wanting it

00:23:59   and thinking it'll actually happen.

00:24:01   And I always thought it was unlikely to happen.

00:24:03   So even though it's no longer on their near-term roadmap,

00:24:05   I'm fascinated that it was,

00:24:07   and that it's still kind of bubbling out there

00:24:09   as something they might do in the future,

00:24:11   that the 13-inch Air might not be the smallest Mac laptop

00:24:16   available at some point in the future.

00:24:17   But for the near-term, it's that larger Air,

00:24:19   which we talked about several times on the show

00:24:22   as being a nice way for people to get a larger display

00:24:25   without having to spend two grand on a MacBook Pro.

00:24:29   - Apple has been working on larger iPads,

00:24:32   but I'm told not to expect those this year.

00:24:35   - Who's telling you?

00:24:37   The people, I guess.

00:24:38   - The people, yeah, the people.

00:24:39   - People are telling you, don't expect those.

00:24:41   This year, yeah, so this is my prediction about

00:24:43   that they were gonna do a larger iPad.

00:24:47   And he says, "No, not this year, it's not gonna happen."

00:24:50   Which means it's gonna be a real quiet year for the iPad.

00:24:53   I thought that the larger iPad might be the only thing

00:24:55   that they did this year, but it sounds like

00:24:57   they're not even gonna do that this year.

00:24:59   - The return of the larger HomePod size

00:25:01   is still set for this year, but I wouldn't expect

00:25:04   anything revolutionary about it.

00:25:05   Then what's the point?

00:25:07   What's the point?

00:25:08   Unless, okay, if they bring back a bigger one,

00:25:11   but it's like $200, right?

00:25:14   - Right.

00:25:15   - Maybe fine, right?

00:25:16   - Yeah, that's the point is that it's gonna sound better

00:25:19   than the HomePod Mini.

00:25:20   - Yeah, but if it still costs $400, then there's no point.

00:25:23   - No, no, well, of course it won't.

00:25:25   I think that's the example is it's gonna be

00:25:27   a big HomePod mini.

00:25:28   It's going to be maybe the size of that HomePod

00:25:32   that was the original model,

00:25:33   but it's gonna be, again, sort of scaled down

00:25:36   in terms of what's in it,

00:25:38   all the different speakers and stuff, right?

00:25:40   It's gonna be more like a scaled up HomePod mini,

00:25:43   which I think is fine.

00:25:44   I think that's the right thing.

00:25:46   And then if the HomePod mini is 99 or whatever,

00:25:48   then you do it at 199 for the larger one

00:25:51   that's got some more speakers and sounds better.

00:25:54   Because the HomePod mini is nice,

00:25:57   but it does not sound as good as the HomePod,

00:25:59   and there's room there.

00:26:00   Even if it doesn't sound as good as the original HomePod,

00:26:03   there's room for it to sound better than it does,

00:26:05   and to get a bigger model in there.

00:26:07   So I think that's fine.

00:26:09   - Mark referenced that devices like the Apple Watch

00:26:13   are gonna probably see a pretty quiet year,

00:26:16   but did reference that quote,

00:26:18   "The iPhone hardware could be impressive.

00:26:21   "I am told to expect the same screen sizes

00:26:23   "as the iPhone 14 family,

00:26:25   "but the dynamic island will expand to all four models,"

00:26:27   as Jason called out.

00:26:29   "A titanium frame replaces stainless steel on the Pro,

00:26:32   "and there will be haptic volume buttons,"

00:26:34   that means not real buttons,

00:26:36   "the iPhone will also switch to USB-C and faster processors."

00:26:41   - Right, now I just wanted to caution people,

00:26:43   although Myke in an earlier segment here

00:26:45   said that titanium can be anodized

00:26:47   and in fact can come in bright colors.

00:26:49   - I mean, so on the pro,

00:26:50   it's not gonna be in bright colors.

00:26:51   I mean, it's just gonna--

00:26:52   - Yeah, do not expect that to happen.

00:26:53   (laughing)

00:26:54   Instead, expect it-- - I might still get my gold.

00:26:56   It's all I want. - Yes.

00:26:58   And then there'll be your midnight tree bark

00:27:03   and your evening, I don't even know,

00:27:06   evening leaves and your something like that.

00:27:11   Or yeah, yeah, like the dark rainbow on campus at night.

00:27:16   or like your 3 a.m.

00:27:19   gray whale.

00:27:22   - Perfect. - I don't know.

00:27:23   Like it will be the same unimpressive color scheme

00:27:28   even though titanium can withstand more than that.

00:27:31   But titanium can make it lighter.

00:27:33   That phone could be lighter.

00:27:34   That iPhone Pro could really stand to be lighter.

00:27:37   So that's good.

00:27:38   - But all of this is like table dressing, really,

00:27:43   for the bigger thing,

00:27:44   which we all know is coming this year,

00:27:45   which is the headset.

00:27:47   And Mark mentions, so like leading into that,

00:27:50   Apple's focus on the, he calls it XR OS operating system.

00:27:55   I hope it's not that.

00:27:57   I mean, it's just Xross, I guess we'll call it

00:28:00   in that instance, the Xross operating system.

00:28:04   - XR OS, like TV OS, we already do it.

00:28:06   - Yeah, but XR sounds horrible.

00:28:09   If it was AR OS, that would be better, or VR OS.

00:28:12   but no one's gonna call it XR, right?

00:28:15   Like we're not gonna call it that.

00:28:17   - They are.

00:28:18   - You think that Apple will call it XR?

00:28:21   - If Apple calls it that, then all of us will go along.

00:28:23   Yeah, sure. - 10R?

00:28:24   10ROS.

00:28:27   - 10ROS, okay. - Now, I genuinely don't think

00:28:29   Apple's gonna call their device an XR device.

00:28:33   They might call it a mixed reality device,

00:28:35   but I don't think they're gonna refer to it as XR.

00:28:38   That's my, like that is what people call mixed reality.

00:28:42   Some people do call it Emma, which I hope that they would be more likely to call it

00:28:46   an XR.

00:28:47   Well, it's a marketing decision, ultimately.

00:28:51   We'll see.

00:28:53   So along with the focus on this operating system, along with iOS 16 snags, has also

00:28:59   cost some new features in iOS 17 and iPadOS 17, the same goes for Mac OS 14.

00:29:05   So they're going all in on this thing, which makes sense to me.

00:29:09   Like I think there will be stuff coming out this year, there will be new things, of course,

00:29:14   but I'm expecting the overall focus of 2023 will be the headset and the operating system.

00:29:21   And you know, as we've been talking about before, that's going to start at some point

00:29:25   in the spring and it's going to hit every single time Apple's got something to say this

00:29:29   year, they're going to be talking about this in some way.

00:29:33   And it's already been happening, right?

00:29:35   Because they've already been working on this.

00:29:36   This is the, when we think about how like,

00:29:39   oh, the Mac needs to get attention, but if it does,

00:29:42   it's gotta take attention away from the iPhone and the iPad

00:29:44   and the iPhone needs to get its share

00:29:46   because it's the biggest product,

00:29:47   but then you can't ignore the iPad and all that.

00:29:49   What's been going on for, you know,

00:29:52   over the last several years, but it's been increasing.

00:29:54   And especially in the last year, I'd imagine,

00:29:56   is this product that's beneath the surface still,

00:30:00   but there's huge amounts of work going on on this product.

00:30:04   So that's gonna obviously continue

00:30:07   'cause then they're gonna get it out there

00:30:08   and it's gonna be pre 1.0

00:30:10   and there's gonna be all that work

00:30:11   that needs to be done to it.

00:30:12   And when we finally see it, we're gonna be like,

00:30:14   oh, it doesn't do this, doesn't do this, it doesn't do this.

00:30:16   And Apple's gonna have to scramble.

00:30:17   Remember the early Apple Watch days

00:30:19   when sort of like their app approach wasn't quite right

00:30:23   and the hardware wasn't quite there

00:30:24   and they had to do a lot of work on it.

00:30:27   And Apple thinks that this is a strategic product for them.

00:30:30   So Apple is gonna be and is already distracted

00:30:35   and is moving resources to this thing.

00:30:38   And that's how it should be.

00:30:39   - This is how you gotta do it.

00:30:40   If you mean it, you gotta do it.

00:30:41   - If you mean it, yeah, you do.

00:30:43   Otherwise it's just a hobby.

00:30:44   It's, you know, and this is not a hobby.

00:30:47   - Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple has already

00:30:50   shared the device of a small number of high profile

00:30:53   software developers for testing and letting them

00:30:55   get started on third party apps for demos.

00:30:58   the company is aiming to unveil it this spring

00:31:01   ahead of the WWDC conference in June.

00:31:04   This makes all of this is making sense to me,

00:31:06   like especially if they're sharing it with people now,

00:31:10   these people have got eight weeks, right?

00:31:12   Like that's the goal, right?

00:31:14   - Those are the people who are demoing at the launch event

00:31:17   and then they will promise at the launch event

00:31:19   more details about it for third-party development in June

00:31:25   at WWDC, right?

00:31:26   That'll be how it goes and the SDK will come out then.

00:31:30   - And I think this is super smart, right?

00:31:32   Because then companies that wanna do it

00:31:34   or developers that are interested in it,

00:31:36   you've then got like three months to start whiteboarding,

00:31:38   thinking, like brainstorming, like what could we do

00:31:42   without seeing the stuff, right?

00:31:44   So you start thinking big picture,

00:31:46   then you get the development kit

00:31:47   and then you can start seeing

00:31:49   what you can bring to life a bit, right?

00:31:50   Like that, this all, this is the playbook, right?

00:31:53   We've been talking about this for ages.

00:31:54   This is the "We have a new thing" playbook.

00:31:57   They did it with the iPhone, they did it with the Apple Watch.

00:32:02   I don't know if they did it with the iPad, I don't remember the timeline.

00:32:05   Like, I don't think it was as far in advance, right, from announcement to release.

00:32:12   I think it was a shorter period of time.

00:32:14   But still, time.

00:32:16   So more from Mark Gurman.

00:32:17   "With the current plan, Apple could introduce the device to consumers, likely under the

00:32:21   the name Reality Pro and then get developers up to speed on its software features in June.

00:32:27   On this timeline, the company would then ship the product later in the fall of 2023.

00:32:31   They're going to call it Apple Reality Pro, right?

00:32:34   It's not just going to be Reality Pro, right?

00:32:36   Like, sure.

00:32:37   Yeah.

00:32:38   Right?

00:32:39   We're in agreement on that?

00:32:40   Like, I just think that's just what he said, but I don't think that's the name.

00:32:43   Apple is branded on everything now.

00:32:46   Yeah.

00:32:47   And Apple Reality, by the way, is a device name I'm kind of fine with.

00:32:51   I don't know if my feelings on this have changed or not over time, but Apple Reality Pro is like a perfectly okay name for me.

00:32:59   Yeah, it's it's what

00:33:02   Apple is doing now with names right? It is the most obvious

00:33:07   generic name with Apple in front of it. Yeah, and this is my favorite quote

00:33:15   Maybe ever. I love this so much. Alright?

00:33:18   While Apple still has many kinks to work out with the device,

00:33:21   involving hardware, software and services, as well as how it will be marketed and sold,

00:33:25   the company is banking on the product as its hot new introduction for this year.

00:33:29   So, other than the hardware, software, services, marketing and the way it's sold,

00:33:38   it's ready to go.

00:33:41   It's all ready to go.

00:33:42   (laughing)

00:33:44   He's ready to go.

00:33:45   - Woo.

00:33:48   - It's incredible.

00:33:49   Like Mark Gurman, we are such big fans of you on this show.

00:33:53   You know that, right?

00:33:54   You know that.

00:33:55   This is bananas what you have said here, right?

00:33:58   Like, oh, aside from everything, they're ready.

00:34:01   - Well, I think that, I mean, not to speak for Mark,

00:34:05   but my guess is that that is the strong implication

00:34:07   when he wrote this sentence,

00:34:09   he was very much trying to get across.

00:34:11   - They're not ready.

00:34:12   or like the people that he's talking to are like,

00:34:14   I don't know.

00:34:16   There are parts of this, right?

00:34:17   Marketing and how it's gonna be solved,

00:34:19   they have nine months at least from now to work that out.

00:34:23   And so like, sure.

00:34:24   Hardware, software and services,

00:34:27   at least one of those three has to be at a state

00:34:29   where they're ready to start talking about it

00:34:32   or like to say they've got a plan,

00:34:33   especially the hardware, right?

00:34:35   - Right.

00:34:36   I do think that maybe there are some questions about,

00:34:40   Yeah, hardware, it seems a lot,

00:34:42   I mean, if they're not gonna ship it until the fall though,

00:34:44   they're just gonna have samples.

00:34:45   They may be able to make changes, but yeah,

00:34:48   software, I could see them being like,

00:34:50   their features were gonna drop out of initial release

00:34:53   'cause we just can't get there.

00:34:54   Keep in mind, this is a lot harder of a problem

00:34:59   than the iPhone in the sense that the iPhone launched

00:35:02   without a software developer kit for third parties, right?

00:35:06   But it was so successful when they introduced it

00:35:08   that now everything has to ship

00:35:09   with a software development kit, which makes sense

00:35:11   'cause it makes the products more interesting.

00:35:13   But it means that they gotta, when they do this,

00:35:17   they do have to have a developer story.

00:35:19   And that's extra complexity.

00:35:20   And that, you frustrate the developers

00:35:22   if you keep messing around with the software

00:35:24   'cause they need to rely on it.

00:35:26   So yeah, this is,

00:35:29   it's gonna be really interesting to watch

00:35:32   and see what's going on here.

00:35:34   It does feel like maybe this is just

00:35:37   function of it being around so long and being delayed that Mark Gurman has more information

00:35:43   about it and more people have more information about it and that because it's been delayed

00:35:46   and because there have been changes, we are seeing into the development in a way that

00:35:52   maybe we might not have otherwise. But it sure sounds like a product that is not focused

00:36:01   and not ready, and yet they seem to be saying that, you know, it's coming.

00:36:09   Not ready or not, but that like, they keep delaying it, and now they think they probably

00:36:14   will get to it in time, but again, they're still working on it, it seems, from this report.

00:36:18   That's pretty wild.

00:36:19   But I'd see, the thing that I'm struggling with this is, if the hardware has been delayed

00:36:23   multiple times, how are they still struggling with the software and services part?

00:36:28   Because in theory, the software and services had to be ready for the hardware.

00:36:32   So the hardware's been delayed, right?

00:36:33   Well, the hardware being delayed is not the way to phrase it, I think.

00:36:37   Think of it as the product has been delayed.

00:36:38   The hardware could be ready.

00:36:40   It's probably not.

00:36:41   But they could have finished the hardware a year ago and said, "We're ready to ship

00:36:44   this."

00:36:45   And they would have to delay the hardware, so to speak, anyway, if the software's not

00:36:49   ready.

00:36:50   So the product's not ready is the best way to look at this.

00:36:52   The product has been delayed.

00:36:54   And why has it been delayed?

00:36:56   Is it the hardware?

00:36:57   Is it the software?

00:36:58   at the services, answer's probably yes, right?

00:37:02   But it's probably all of those things.

00:37:04   I don't think it's just the hardware necessarily.

00:37:07   Although, I mean, to your point,

00:37:09   if it was just the hardware,

00:37:10   then they wouldn't say the software is still in flux, right?

00:37:14   Other than if the software has to be in flux

00:37:16   because they keep changing the hardware,

00:37:17   which is a possibility.

00:37:19   - That makes more sense to me.

00:37:20   - Could be.

00:37:21   - The information also had another big report about this

00:37:24   with a bunch of details that we've not heard about

00:37:28   before. So there's a lot of little hardware tidbits. So one of them is that

00:37:32   you know so you've got the the screens that go on your face attached to your

00:37:36   head with a headband right. So the headband is said to have speakers built

00:37:40   into it. This is very normal for other types of VR headsets. So you know you can

00:37:46   put it on and you can hear and they're kind of like fire interiors or whatever.

00:37:50   But speakers are speakers and if they're going to be like actual speakers not

00:37:54   anything like bone conduction or whatever,

00:37:56   it would be audible to people that are around you.

00:37:59   They would be able to hear.

00:38:00   So if you're sitting next to someone

00:38:01   and you're using the Apple Reality Pro,

00:38:04   they're gonna be able to hear what you're doing.

00:38:06   So the information references that AirPods

00:38:09   could be required for some use cases.

00:38:11   - Like communication, they said,

00:38:13   like if you wanna have a private communication,

00:38:15   although one side of the communication

00:38:17   is gonna be audible in the room anyway, right?

00:38:18   'Cause you're gonna be talking.

00:38:20   But it is true that like they sound,

00:38:22   Like on my quest, on my quest too,

00:38:25   it sounds really good even when I'm not wearing a headset,

00:38:29   but when I'm not wearing headphones.

00:38:32   But you know, if I'm playing ping pong,

00:38:35   my wife can tell that I'm playing ping pong, right?

00:38:38   She's in the other room and it's,

00:38:39   (mimics ping pong)

00:38:40   Right, like it's ping pong, it's happening.

00:38:43   There's table tennis, ping sounds going off.

00:38:46   And like, so you probably want headphones,

00:38:49   just because if there's, if other people are around,

00:38:52   especially, plus it's gonna shut out the outside world

00:38:55   a little bit. - Yeah.

00:38:56   But I bet those speakers in Headband

00:38:58   will have like spatial audio and stuff.

00:38:59   I bet they'll sound really good.

00:39:01   - I'm sure they will.

00:39:03   It's funny that this report is sort of like,

00:39:05   well, the AirPods 2 is gonna be like the--

00:39:10   - The best one. - Required in some use cases

00:39:12   or AirPods-- - Yeah, I don't really like

00:39:15   the way it's written, 'cause I think it can be easily taken

00:39:19   that that means, oh, the Apple are gonna mean

00:39:21   you have to have them.

00:39:23   But it's like, no, I just think it means practically.

00:39:26   From a practicality standpoint,

00:39:28   you're gonna want headphones, right?

00:39:32   But the issue is then, is apparently

00:39:34   that the only headphones, this is the catch,

00:39:37   the only headphones that will work with this headset

00:39:40   apparently would be AirPods Pro 2.

00:39:42   And that is part of the,

00:39:45   you know, we've been talking about this before,

00:39:47   like some of the stuff that Apple mentioned

00:39:48   about the frequencies and how it's got

00:39:51   like a wider, what was the phrasing that they used?

00:39:54   - Oh, like capable of more bandwidth

00:39:56   or something like that. - Yeah.

00:39:57   That apparently, that was for the headset.

00:40:00   So these would be the only headphones

00:40:04   that would work at all,

00:40:06   and then anything that has the H2 chip in from this point.

00:40:09   They're obviously not gonna have a headphone jack

00:40:11   on this device, and you would probably want

00:40:14   small in-ears anyway, because it's easier

00:40:17   for the fact that you've got a big strap

00:40:18   around your head, right?

00:40:20   We haven't talked about the price yet,

00:40:22   but I will just say,

00:40:24   if the information's report on the price is true,

00:40:28   which I am very much skeptical of,

00:40:31   but if it is true, all I'll say is,

00:40:34   AirPods Pro 2 should come in the box, if that's the price.

00:40:38   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:40:40   - Right, like if you're gonna require

00:40:42   for truly immersive whatever, AirPods Pro,

00:40:46   and the product costs a large amount of money,

00:40:49   They just need to be in the box, that's it.

00:40:53   - I actually agree with you on this one.

00:40:54   Yeah, I think that that would be not just a courtesy,

00:40:59   but like that should be the way that this thing works

00:41:02   as it comes to them.

00:41:03   Do I think they will do this?

00:41:04   Absolutely not, but they should.

00:41:06   And we'll talk about it when it happens, right?

00:41:09   - I'm actually a little surprised

00:41:10   that they aren't using headphones or AirPods Max

00:41:15   or AirPods Pro in a more integrated way,

00:41:19   at least as a possibility here with transparency.

00:41:23   'Cause the reason you don't wanna cover people's ears

00:41:27   is because they might need to interact with people

00:41:29   in the real world, but there's transparency.

00:41:31   So you could make it that you put this thing on

00:41:34   and it's got headphones, right?

00:41:35   You could just do that where it's playing.

00:41:37   You don't, it's playing right into yours.

00:41:39   You put the headphones in or the act of putting it on

00:41:42   also puts headphones on you.

00:41:44   I know that there are a lot of ergonomic reasons

00:41:46   you might not wanna do that, but I'm a little surprised

00:41:48   'cause like transparency, that's the whole idea.

00:41:50   But yes, if it's gonna be very expensive

00:41:52   and for best use you're gonna need

00:41:55   to put something in your ears or over your ears,

00:41:58   should be in the box.

00:42:02   - From the information, a special alternate headband

00:42:06   will be available for developers,

00:42:08   likely allowing for the device to be hooked up

00:42:10   to a Mac for development.

00:42:11   - Yeah, this is the developer kit thing

00:42:14   and it totally makes sense, right?

00:42:16   that there needs to be a way to hook this thing up to a Mac directly so that you can

00:42:21   be running your code on the Mac and debugging it while using the headset, which is bananas,

00:42:27   but that's like that's how VR development works.

00:42:29   Yeah, this is not a special alternate headband. This is a developer kit, right? Like you can

00:42:34   it's not like you get a headband and then buy your thing and no, they will send you

00:42:37   the whole thing. You'll pay them a lot of money for the privilege and it will come with

00:42:41   a headband that has a cable attached to it, right? You know what I mean?

00:42:45   a detail. I'm not confident in either one, whether developers will be able to get it

00:42:50   with the headband and that'll be all part of it, or whether they'll say, "Go get this

00:42:54   product and then we'll… you can separately buy a headband and attach it," whatever.

00:42:58   Well, the report also says that the idea for user-swappable headbands has been removed

00:43:04   from the product, so you wouldn't be able to do that.

00:43:07   Right. But it says that the developers will have a swappable headband, so I think that

00:43:12   the jury is out about whether the, it's not important,

00:43:15   but like developers will be able to get a thing

00:43:17   where they can tether.

00:43:18   However, the details, details don't matter.

00:43:21   They'll be able to get that.

00:43:22   And that'll be for developers.

00:43:23   And, and that's it.

00:43:25   It's not going to be one of these things where it's like,

00:43:26   or you can hook it up to a Mac and play real games.

00:43:30   It's like, that's not the point of it.

00:43:32   The point is the tethering is just going to be

00:43:34   for developers.

00:43:35   - As of last year,

00:43:36   the headset used an external battery pack tethered by cable,

00:43:40   as opposed to a battery integrated into the headband.

00:43:43   The design choice has been controversial

00:43:45   among Apple's engineers,

00:43:46   given the company's preference for cable-free designs.

00:43:49   I am on Team Battery Pack.

00:43:53   - I can't see, okay, I can't see this product

00:43:58   having a mandatory external battery that you have to wear.

00:44:02   I can't see it.

00:44:05   - Well, I agree.

00:44:06   I can't see that it will happen,

00:44:08   but I think they should do it

00:44:09   because then it will be lighter on your head.

00:44:12   Like that's the goal. - So yes, yes,

00:44:15   but it means that to get into it,

00:44:17   you've gotta equip even more.

00:44:19   And that equipping phase is no fun.

00:44:21   - You're already so in at the point

00:44:23   where you're like putting this thing on your face,

00:44:25   putting the earphones in your ears.

00:44:28   - It's different having a cable snaking away from your body

00:44:30   and going somewhere that can get snagged

00:44:32   or can be tense or all of that.

00:44:33   So what I'm gonna say is, 'cause I'm not finished, right?

00:44:38   The idea that to get good battery life,

00:44:43   you need to attach a thing and they will sell you a thing

00:44:46   or it comes with a thing to get good battery life.

00:44:50   I'm okay with that idea.

00:44:52   But the idea that this thing when it's in use

00:44:56   always has a cable snaking from it

00:44:59   to somewhere else on your body where there's a battery pack.

00:45:02   Like yuck, yuck.

00:45:07   - $3,000 price tag is still expected from the information.

00:45:11   - Okay.

00:45:11   Okay, let me stop you there.

00:45:14   (laughs)

00:45:17   $3,000 price tag.

00:45:22   I believe that the technology in this thing

00:45:28   might mean that that price is justified,

00:45:35   but I can't envision them selling,

00:45:37   even if they put pro on it,

00:45:39   I can't envision them selling enough $3,000 plus headsets

00:45:44   to make an audience large enough

00:45:50   to justify any app development for it.

00:45:52   That $3,000 sounds like a developer kit,

00:45:56   a developer preview of something

00:45:58   that will be eventually available

00:46:00   in a consumer friendly product down the road

00:46:03   so that developers can start working now

00:46:05   on the Reality Pro so that they're ready

00:46:08   when reality comes out, Apple reality for way cheaper.

00:46:12   I mean, I thought the $2,000 plus

00:46:15   was a ridiculous price point.

00:46:16   $3,000 plus is what's above that.

00:46:19   Ludicrous?

00:46:20   I don't know.

00:46:25   I don't know what to do with this report

00:46:26   because I said, I think last week,

00:46:28   I am strongly of the belief that Apple

00:46:31   basically needs to eat its profit margins

00:46:33   on this product when it comes out.

00:46:35   So that, and whether break even or lose money or whatever, but like, they

00:46:39   need to get some volume going for the developers to build for their new

00:46:43   platform.

00:46:43   And if Apple is going to sell this thing for $3,000, like who's it for?

00:46:47   Corporations and very, very rich people as a toy.

00:46:51   Well, I mean, that's great.

00:46:52   You'll make a profit on the few that you sell, but, um, who's going to develop

00:46:56   for that other than like very expensive apps for corporations and very, very

00:47:01   rich people, but like, It's not a mass product at $3,000.

00:47:04   it's not a mass product of $2,000.

00:47:06   So no matter how good it is.

00:47:08   So yeah, I'm troubled by this,

00:47:11   although I'm also not necessarily convinced by this report.

00:47:15   - More than the price, another quote troubles me more,

00:47:18   which is, "Apple sees video conferencing

00:47:21   "as a potential killer app

00:47:22   "with virtual conversations conducted

00:47:24   "using digital avatars.

00:47:26   "People who have worked on the headset

00:47:27   "say Apple doesn't appear to have focused much on gaming."

00:47:32   That, so I'm potentially drawing here in my mind

00:47:37   a link between $3,000 and video conferencing.

00:47:41   And it worries me that you just said, right,

00:47:45   is it gonna be for corporations?

00:47:47   Like, I really hope that this--

00:47:49   - It's a HoloLens sort of thing.

00:47:51   - That they don't think that this is where

00:47:53   they should be going.

00:47:55   Look, I can imagine, right, Apple not putting a focus

00:47:57   on gaming, is Apple always, right?

00:48:00   Like, they never put a focus on gaming.

00:48:03   So they don't have to have focused specifically on gaming

00:48:06   at all for this product to make any sense, right?

00:48:09   Like, one of the things that they say in the report

00:48:12   is they don't have any plans for a game controller.

00:48:14   Yeah, well, welcome to everything for them, right?

00:48:17   - Remember, if you die in the meeting, you die in real life.

00:48:19   So, look, it's possible,

00:48:24   but Microsoft selling a VR, AR,

00:48:29   mixed reality product for corporations makes sense

00:48:33   with the Microsoft brand, right?

00:48:35   But like that's not Apple's brand.

00:48:36   That's not the kind of stuff Apple does.

00:48:38   And yes, I totally see that they're working on this, right?

00:48:41   Because we've seen with SharePlay and with Memojis

00:48:46   and with the collaboration tools, including Freeform,

00:48:52   like Apple is trying to build a whole suite

00:48:56   of collaboration and communication features,

00:48:59   it's very clear that they all have an application

00:49:02   on a virtual reality headset, right?

00:49:05   That's totally clear.

00:49:07   I get it.

00:49:08   But again, first off, this is the company

00:49:11   that wants everybody to come back into the office.

00:49:13   So that's amazing.

00:49:14   And maybe you don't have to come back into the office

00:49:17   if you agree to wear a headset three days a week.

00:49:19   I don't know.

00:49:21   And I just, my skepticism, like, look,

00:49:24   I used Meta's Horizon Worlds thing.

00:49:28   It was fine, but like the idea that you spend your work time

00:49:33   or your meeting time with a thing on your face,

00:49:36   looking at other avatars, like it's interesting

00:49:40   and there's something to the idea that it feels

00:49:42   like you're more present with other people

00:49:44   than even a FaceTime does,

00:49:46   I will absolutely grant you that.

00:49:49   But that's not something to hang your product on.

00:49:53   There has to be games.

00:49:54   Games should be as much as a focus

00:49:56   on this as everything else.

00:49:58   Now again, Apple shouldn't make the games,

00:50:00   but they've just got to make it possible

00:50:01   for people to make the games.

00:50:03   Honestly, I expect they will.

00:50:05   I, you know, like how you, you question the price thing,

00:50:09   I question this.

00:50:11   - Oh, I agree.

00:50:11   If it's $3,000, it doesn't make sense as a game console,

00:50:14   I suppose, right?

00:50:15   That would be the answer there.

00:50:16   But it doesn't, like the bet, the only,

00:50:20   I would say, okay, not the only,

00:50:22   The only real proven VR applications that exist right now

00:50:25   are games, fitness,

00:50:30   and esoteric corporate whatever.

00:50:35   - Meetings, I think meetings people seem to like it.

00:50:38   - Like with HoloLens, Microsoft's done a bunch of stuff

00:50:40   where it's like, you know, if you're working in 3D and CAD

00:50:43   and other stuff like that, where you can do visualizations

00:50:45   of the objects in 3D space and walk around them

00:50:47   and all that before you print them or build them

00:50:49   or whatever, like, okay, that's cool.

00:50:51   And then yeah, okay, well, I'll throw in Meetings,

00:50:53   although I'm not sure that Meetings is the killer app,

00:50:56   but it is an app that could be used for this.

00:50:58   But it's very hard to imagine

00:51:00   that Apple's gonna build this platform

00:51:01   and ignore those lifestyle features.

00:51:04   The only way that this works is again,

00:51:06   if we're misreading Apple strategy here,

00:51:09   and it's hard because all the focus of reports

00:51:12   has been on this first headset.

00:51:14   And if it's truly a ultra premium/development environment,

00:51:19   what we're missing here is,

00:51:20   what does the one that people will buy look like?

00:51:23   And when is that coming, right?

00:51:25   'Cause maybe their deal that they've made here,

00:51:29   their bargain that they've made is,

00:51:31   this first one is way over engineered.

00:51:34   It's like the HomePod writ large.

00:51:36   It's a huge, expensive, spare no expense kind of thing.

00:51:41   And nobody's gonna buy it.

00:51:43   Well, okay, but we built it.

00:51:44   So who's gonna get it?

00:51:46   And they're like, all right,

00:51:46   well, how about developers and corporations?

00:51:48   We'll do that.

00:51:50   But what's the other part of this, right?

00:51:51   Because you don't spend this kind of money

00:51:54   building a new platform

00:51:56   that's gonna be used by a small number of people,

00:51:58   especially if you're gonna evangelize developers about it.

00:52:00   So what next?

00:52:04   - They're gonna put Apple Arcade games on this thing.

00:52:06   Like, I don't have any concern about that.

00:52:08   - Sure, but if it's $3,000, it's not gonna matter.

00:52:10   So that's my question is like,

00:52:12   what's phase two of the strategy if this is phase one?

00:52:15   And if it's we'll eventually lower the price,

00:52:17   that's a long way to go to lower the price.

00:52:20   Is it because you put pro on it

00:52:21   that there's also an Apple reality

00:52:23   and that's coming next year

00:52:25   and that's gonna be the one that everybody's gonna buy.

00:52:27   But in the meantime, we're doing this for people in,

00:52:31   I mean, it gives them an out.

00:52:33   When people are like,

00:52:33   "Why do you expect everybody to buy this thing

00:52:35   at this price?"

00:52:36   It lets them say, "No, no, no, no, no.

00:52:38   You misunderstand us.

00:52:39   This product is for developers and for corporations

00:52:43   and very high-end uses.

00:52:46   We do believe in this space and something else is coming,

00:52:49   we promise, that everybody's gonna want,

00:52:51   but for now it's like this.

00:52:53   I mean, I can see them building that narrative

00:52:55   as a way to explain why they put this at a price

00:52:57   that nobody is gonna buy it,

00:52:58   other than corporations and developers,

00:53:00   but the developers aren't gonna buy it either

00:53:02   unless they're reassured that there's gonna be

00:53:04   a real product that people will actually buy

00:53:07   and that will ship in volume

00:53:08   so that they will actually be getting a return

00:53:11   on their investment in developing for it.

00:53:14   - James Thompson in the chat's made a really good point,

00:53:16   which is if it does not have any hand controllers,

00:53:18   it cannot be used to games

00:53:20   'cause nobody will be able to port their games.

00:53:22   - That's true.

00:53:23   I wonder if hand controllers are an option

00:53:28   or if Apple really believes

00:53:30   that their hand recognition is so good

00:53:33   they don't need controllers,

00:53:34   which might be, it might actually lead to the Apple

00:53:37   doesn't appear to have focused much on gaming information

00:53:40   from the information, right?

00:53:42   Like that could be the source of something like that,

00:53:44   which is like, well, if they really were focusing on it,

00:53:47   they would go beyond their own hand scanning

00:53:49   and put in controllers and they haven't bothered with that.

00:53:52   Because you do want the hand controllers

00:53:54   and just a video game controller is not gonna do it

00:53:55   because the whole idea is that you're moving your arms

00:53:58   around and stuff and you're interacting with objects.

00:54:01   So it's really mysterious, but if this is true,

00:54:06   if the information's got,

00:54:09   again, I don't think they're making it up,

00:54:10   but if the information has got it right

00:54:13   and Mark Gurman's got it right.

00:54:15   And this is where Apple's going with this.

00:54:17   It's hard not to see this as what I just described,

00:54:20   which is a product that is so expensive

00:54:23   that it really isn't for the public

00:54:24   and that Apple's gonna have to weave a story

00:54:26   about why regular people are not the audience

00:54:30   for this product.

00:54:31   That one, I think they're gonna have to say

00:54:33   that product is coming,

00:54:35   but we have to get started with this thing for right now.

00:54:38   And because they're gonna get,

00:54:40   I mean, they're gonna get savaged in the media anyway,

00:54:43   if they try to release a $3,000 product,

00:54:45   everybody's gonna laugh real hard at them.

00:54:47   And that's okay, they're tough, they can take it.

00:54:50   But they might want to not take some steps

00:54:52   to not poison this category

00:54:54   so that anything Apple does in this category

00:54:56   after this product is considered a joke, right?

00:55:00   Like they need to not poison the well here.

00:55:02   And I think that that's gonna be an interesting,

00:55:07   interesting challenge for them

00:55:10   if these are the facts of this product.

00:55:14   - iPhone apps will be able to run in an overlay 2D format.

00:55:19   - Sure. - It'd be kind of fun.

00:55:21   - Little iPhone app windows in various places

00:55:24   that you can, yeah, it's like a stage manager, but in 3D.

00:55:27   - There will be a dial, and as John Gruber called it,

00:55:33   a digital crown for switching between AR and VR,

00:55:36   which I think would be unbelievably good.

00:55:39   That is a good idea.

00:55:41   - Yeah, on my quest, you double tap

00:55:43   on the side of your head basically,

00:55:45   and it flips you from not reality to reality.

00:55:49   Having something tactile where you can be like,

00:55:51   it's like you're opening up the visor essentially,

00:55:53   even though it's not what it's doing.

00:55:56   It's not a bad idea.

00:55:57   It's a nice little touch.

00:55:58   - It's like, I wanna see a little bit,

00:56:00   like that, you know, like just a little bit,

00:56:02   give me a peek.

00:56:03   Like, I like that idea

00:56:04   if that's gonna be how it works, right?

00:56:06   that it won't just be you're either in AR or in VR,

00:56:10   you could be like halfway?

00:56:13   I don't know, that seems kind of interesting to me.

00:56:15   And you know, that $3,000 price

00:56:18   is based on apparently premium components

00:56:21   and it being thinner and lighter than the Quest Pro,

00:56:24   which I think goes back to the battery thing potentially.

00:56:26   I'm wondering, my kind of feeling on this,

00:56:29   'cause the more we talk about it,

00:56:31   the more I move backwards and forwards

00:56:33   as to what I think this thing's gonna be and gonna cost,

00:56:35   like during the course of this conversation today,

00:56:37   I've changed my mind on it all like four times.

00:56:40   I'm expecting the information to see in a bill of materials

00:56:43   and that's where they come into this for $3,000.

00:56:45   But that is, I assume that they are included

00:56:48   in a margin in it.

00:56:49   And as we've spoken about before,

00:56:51   we're both on the team of Apple needs to eat the margin.

00:56:54   - Even if it's also, I mean, yes, you're probably right.

00:56:58   It's a bill of materials thing.

00:56:59   It's also possible that inside Apple,

00:57:02   there is a standard way that the rough price of a product

00:57:05   is calculated based on the bill of materials.

00:57:08   And I'm sure the final decision about pricing

00:57:12   is up at a very, very high level.

00:57:14   And that's why we don't get a lot of rumors

00:57:15   about actual prices in advance.

00:57:17   And that's the truth here is that

00:57:20   it's basically Tim Cook and company

00:57:23   are going to have to make the decision

00:57:24   about what margins are acceptable for this product.

00:57:28   And we'll see.

00:57:30   Like if this product is really not meant to ship

00:57:33   in high volume, and that was a rumor we had a few months ago

00:57:38   then this price is like, sure, well, that'll do it, right?

00:57:40   But if they expect to ship a lot of them,

00:57:43   that price is not gonna do it.

00:57:45   So they're gonna need to lower it.

00:57:47   And that comes back to Tim, which is like,

00:57:49   everybody else knows how much it costs to make it.

00:57:52   But Tim and company, Tim and Luca and the rest

00:57:55   are gonna have to look at it and say,

00:57:56   Well, I know it's gonna cost us $2,300

00:58:00   for each one of these we make,

00:58:01   but I'm gonna price it at $2,300 or $2,000 or whatever.

00:58:06   Right, like I'm just making those numbers up,

00:58:09   but like that's a CEO decision

00:58:12   of are we gonna lose money on this?

00:58:13   Are we gonna break even on this?

00:58:14   We're gonna make a little,

00:58:15   or are we gonna make our customary profit margin

00:58:18   on this thing?

00:58:19   And that's because it's a strategic product release, right?

00:58:22   Like it's not a normal Apple product.

00:58:25   In the run of business, Apple products

00:58:27   have a lot of margin built into them for good reasons, right?

00:58:30   That's Apple's business model.

00:58:32   But when you're trying to start a category

00:58:35   and induce developers into a vacuum of,

00:58:39   like literally these first developers

00:58:41   who are apparently working on it now,

00:58:42   there are no items sold at all.

00:58:45   It's an empty market.

00:58:46   They're going on faith that people will be there

00:58:48   to buy these products, or Apple's paying them

00:58:50   to develop them, which is also possible.

00:58:52   So you need to set the price of a product like this

00:58:57   differently than you would normally price a product.

00:58:59   And that's why it's possible that all these reports

00:59:02   about the price being over $2,000 or over $3,000,

00:59:05   they might be accurate, but they also might be based

00:59:08   on kind of some assumptions about pricing

00:59:10   that might be changed at the very high levels

00:59:12   for a product that's this important.

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01:01:04   Let's cleanse our palette and talk about CES.

01:01:09   Oh no.

01:01:10   Don't eat it.

01:01:11   Don't eat it.

01:01:12   Do not eat CES.

01:01:13   You don't know where it's pinned.

01:01:14   It's Vegas, it's been someplace really gross.

01:01:18   Don't do it.

01:01:19   - Yum. - Oh, no.

01:01:21   - You wrote in our document, "Monitor Madness."

01:01:24   - Monitor Madness.

01:01:26   - Lots of monitors at CES.

01:01:27   - Choo choo choo.

01:01:28   - There's always TVs.

01:01:29   - Monitors, monitors.

01:01:31   - And there's always gaming monitors.

01:01:32   And we're not talking about those.

01:01:33   There are some bananas gaming monitors.

01:01:36   But that's not really important for this conversation.

01:01:39   There were two products, one from Samsung and one from Dell

01:01:43   that seem to be kind of targeting the studio display

01:01:47   or the pro display in its size.

01:01:49   What were your thoughts on these?

01:01:51   - I just think it's interesting that there,

01:01:55   after many years of there being very few displays

01:01:59   that could satisfy Mac users in terms of the DPI to,

01:02:04   or yeah, DPI essentially,

01:02:08   or the resolution to size of the screen ratio, right?

01:02:13   Apple finally came out with something

01:02:16   that's basically the 27-inch iMac display

01:02:19   in a standalone product, the Studio Display.

01:02:21   They had the Pro Display XDR, which is very high-end,

01:02:25   but is also there and has been there for a while.

01:02:28   And then we had that LG Ultrafine, and that's about it.

01:02:31   And now here we are at CES 2023, and what do we get?

01:02:36   We get a Samsung 27 inch 5K display.

01:02:40   So a competitor to the studio display.

01:02:44   It's got ports, it's got a 4K webcam that's detachable,

01:02:48   that's not part of the actual display.

01:02:51   We don't know the price yet,

01:02:53   but what we see here is a Samsung alternative

01:02:57   to the ultra fine in the studio display,

01:02:59   which probably has two forms.

01:03:03   One is if you're a PC user

01:03:05   and you want an Apple level style of resolution,

01:03:10   here it is.

01:03:12   And also if you're a Mac user,

01:03:14   then this might be an alternative,

01:03:17   if assuming it's cheaper,

01:03:19   I mean, it's an alternative regardless.

01:03:21   We don't know the price though,

01:03:22   but it's basically Samsung has decided

01:03:24   to make a studio display.

01:03:26   So that's interesting.

01:03:27   - It's nice looking, I think.

01:03:29   I think this is a good looking display.

01:03:31   It comes with a stand.

01:03:33   I don't know if the stand is high adjustable.

01:03:35   the Vert article doesn't seem to indicate it.

01:03:37   And I can't really tell by looking at the images.

01:03:40   It's got an anti-glare is like the way it's just the standard.

01:03:44   I think this is a good looking display

01:03:46   and it has a detachable 4K webcam.

01:03:50   - Yep.

01:03:51   - Looks good looking.

01:03:52   - Yeah.

01:03:52   Yeah.

01:03:53   I mean, we don't know, again, it's CES.

01:03:55   We don't really know anything about it.

01:03:57   - Apparently as well, it will come loaded

01:04:00   with the same software that runs on Samsung smart TVs.

01:04:04   So you get apps on it.

01:04:05   It's got the Tizen stuff.

01:04:06   So basically it's also a smart TV.

01:04:08   - Which is cool.

01:04:09   - Just for fun.

01:04:10   - Why not?

01:04:11   - Mm-hmm, yeah.

01:04:13   So that's interesting.

01:04:15   And then separately Dell,

01:04:17   it's like the usual suspects, right?

01:04:19   Of Samsung and Dell from CES.

01:04:22   Dell is gonna do a 32 inch 6K display.

01:04:24   Sound familiar?

01:04:26   With a height adjustable stand,

01:04:28   only 600 nits peak brightness.

01:04:29   It's basically like,

01:04:31   what if you wanted something the size

01:04:33   and resolution of the Pro Display XDR,

01:04:36   but not all of the kind of like wild HDR color kind of things

01:04:41   a more of a consumery prosumerary monitor,

01:04:47   but at the size and resolution of the Pro Display XDR,

01:04:50   that is what this Dell monitor is.

01:04:54   And unlike the Samsung,

01:04:55   which actually has a pretty nice design.

01:04:57   - This one's an ugly document.

01:04:59   - Apple inspired.

01:05:00   This one looks like a Dell monitor, as you might expect.

01:05:03   It ain't good looking, this monitor.

01:05:06   It has like, I think that's a camera on the top?

01:05:09   It's like this very large bezel on the top with a big circle on it.

01:05:14   I assume that's a camera?

01:05:16   I don't know what's going on up there.

01:05:18   It is, it is.

01:05:19   It's bad looking, this thing, and it's I'm sure not made of very premium materials.

01:05:25   - No, and again, there are lots of special things

01:05:28   about the Pro Display XDR that make it XDR, right?

01:05:32   But it's five grand and this won't be,

01:05:35   whatever this is, it will not be five grand.

01:05:39   And I think that there are people out there probably

01:05:42   who are like, "I might do a 32 inch display,

01:05:44   "but not a $5,000 one."

01:05:45   And so they're like, "Well, oh well."

01:05:47   And now it's like, "Well, here you go, 32 inch 6K display."

01:05:51   I wonder if Apple is going into this category too.

01:05:54   We've heard rumors about Apple working on other displays.

01:05:57   Would it be a 27 inch or would they do something

01:06:00   that was like a more high dynamic range at 32 inches

01:06:05   that is not the Pro Display XDR, but is something different?

01:06:08   Who knows?

01:06:09   But what I will say is if these products ship

01:06:13   and are okay and are priced reasonably,

01:06:18   we have some monitor choice for Mac users.

01:06:21   And that's good 'cause wow, we were in the desert

01:06:24   for a very long time.

01:06:26   - Chi is back.

01:06:27   Chi 2.

01:06:29   - It never left.

01:06:31   - The sequel to Chi, Chi 2.

01:06:33   - Chi harder.

01:06:35   Chi 2, Chi harder.

01:06:36   - Too furious.

01:06:38   Is it Chi 2, 2 magnetic?

01:06:41   We'll go with that one.

01:06:41   That's it, that's what we're gonna land on.

01:06:44   Chi 2 is a new unified wireless charging standard

01:06:47   that is built on MagSafe charging technology

01:06:50   supply by Apple to the consortium.

01:06:52   This is the wildest piece of this story to me.

01:06:54   'Cause like, when I saw this story, I was like,

01:06:56   "Oh, the new Qi is gonna have magnets."

01:06:59   - They knocked off MagSafe.

01:07:00   - Yeah, but it turns out Apple is a part of Qi,

01:07:03   but they were like, "Yeah, sure, here you go."

01:07:04   They gave the information.

01:07:06   And so this is how you do it,

01:07:08   and we're gonna work with you on it.

01:07:09   And now the new Qi will support magnets

01:07:12   and it will work to allow for faster charging.

01:07:15   The reason that MagSafe can do faster charging than Qi

01:07:18   is 'cause you can confirm the connection is secure

01:07:21   with the magnets, right?

01:07:22   So you can supply more power without there being heat issues

01:07:26   because you know where the charger is

01:07:29   and you know where the coil is in relationship

01:07:31   to each other.

01:07:32   I've read some articles about this.

01:07:36   Currently it's unknown, it's just unknown,

01:07:39   if G2 products and the current MagSafe

01:07:43   will work well together.

01:07:45   - Yeah, that's weird, right?

01:07:46   - Right, so, and Apple is going to use ChiTu, apparently,

01:07:50   according to the consortium.

01:07:53   - Right, so we may have a MagSafe schism or we may not.

01:07:56   - Yeah, we just don't know.

01:07:57   And like, this is what, so I read an article on The Verge,

01:08:00   where they were interviewing someone

01:08:02   from the Chi standards body, and they were--

01:08:06   - The Chi Consortium, yeah. - Consortium.

01:08:07   They're just kinda like, Apple's gonna do a thing,

01:08:10   we don't know. (laughs)

01:08:11   It's like, all right, fair enough.

01:08:13   - Yeah, but Apple is in the consortium

01:08:15   and contributed this. - Yeah.

01:08:16   And this is not, I mean, this is what happened

01:08:18   with Thunderbolt, essentially.

01:08:20   - Matos is the same. - Yes, that's true.

01:08:22   This is the way Apple does standards,

01:08:24   which is they participate and then they invent

01:08:26   their own thing and contribute it as a standard.

01:08:28   - Yeah, we would really like it

01:08:30   if you would just do the thing we did.

01:08:32   - Yeah, they roll into the cheek and sort of shoo

01:08:34   and they're like, "Oh, this is pretty good,

01:08:35   "this is pretty good, okay, we fixed all your crap here."

01:08:38   - Nice standard you got there.

01:08:40   - Yeah. - Be ashamed

01:08:41   if something happens to it. - Something happened to it.

01:08:43   But no, in this place, it'll be great

01:08:44   if something happened to it

01:08:45   because Apple's gonna fix your broken standard.

01:08:49   And anyway, so in the end, what this essentially means

01:08:53   is that MagSafe-like things are gonna come to Android phones

01:08:57   at some point and that presumably they'll be compatible

01:09:02   with future iPhones, but as for the present MagSafe,

01:09:05   will it be compatible?

01:09:06   It's unknown.

01:09:08   I would be surprised if it's incompatible, but who knows?

01:09:11   - Jason, would you like to hear my conspiracy theory

01:09:13   on this, if you wanna pop your conspiracy theory hat on.

01:09:16   - It's a beanie with a propeller.

01:09:20   - Yeah, perfect.

01:09:21   So, Chi-2 works on iPhones, works on Android phones,

01:09:26   or whatever, that is a common charger.

01:09:31   - Yes, it is.

01:09:32   - Building the future for no USB-C port on the iPhone.

01:09:36   Right?

01:09:38   I don't know if they can make this work,

01:09:41   but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple wanted

01:09:43   to really play ball on this, to try and help them out for the future, right? That there

01:09:48   could be a future where this could be seen as common enough, and then they can really

01:09:52   just go down the route that they want to go down to, which is just magsafe for everything.

01:09:56   I feel like Chi was already that, more or less. I don't think the magnets make that

01:09:59   much difference, but sure. I don't know, man.

01:10:01   Sure, I'm going to let you have your conspiracy. I'm going to let you have it.

01:10:04   But conspiracy theories, they're not based in logic, right? That's just, they're

01:10:07   just saying to talk about. You're right. You're right. And finally,

01:10:09   ports can be closed off and Apple's grand vision will come to pass of the portless iPhone.

01:10:16   Stronger magnets are the goal with G2 as well.

01:10:18   That's right. Well, it's how do they work? That's the whole thing.

01:10:23   The last thing I wanted to mention in CES is that matter was everywhere. Everything's

01:10:29   got matter in it.

01:10:30   It's fitting that CES, a place famous for product announcements that never quite ship,

01:10:36   embrace matter, a standard that sort of hasn't happened.

01:10:39   - Yeah, yeah.

01:10:40   I'm gonna put in the show notes a YouTube video.

01:10:43   - Bad news for matter.

01:10:44   Matter is now part of the indeterminate unknown state

01:10:48   of CES products of does it exist or not?

01:10:51   Like, I don't know.

01:10:53   Maybe, eventually, or maybe not.

01:10:55   - I'm gonna put into the show notes a YouTube video

01:10:58   from Shane Watley, who was one of the kind of home kit

01:11:02   creators that were introduced to me when I spoke about this

01:11:04   in the show a while ago.

01:11:06   He was at CES and just has a rundown

01:11:08   of like all the major players and the products

01:11:10   that they're bringing to market.

01:11:12   But there were two specific ones

01:11:14   that I wanted to talk about particularly.

01:11:16   So Acara have two products coming out,

01:11:19   which are very interesting.

01:11:20   One is the first HomeKit secure video,

01:11:24   wireless video doorbell.

01:11:26   That is exactly what I want from a product.

01:11:30   So I'm really intrigued to see how this works out.

01:11:33   The next is a smart lock with home key support.

01:11:36   So their lock is actually really interesting.

01:11:40   It's like a little panel with a keypad on it.

01:11:43   So you can use a keypad or it has a fingerprint sensor.

01:11:45   So you can use a fingerprint.

01:11:47   It also has the ability to have a key and home key.

01:11:49   It was like everything.

01:11:51   So I think this is a really interesting product

01:11:56   from Okara and I've been very happy

01:11:59   with my Okara stuff so far.

01:12:00   So I'm hoping that I will be able to get that doorbell

01:12:03   and make it work for me because that is the product

01:12:05   that I've been looking for.

01:12:07   Then lastly is, you know, ember mugs, right?

01:12:10   They're the mugs that have the heating elements in them.

01:12:13   - Yeah, I'm holding one right now.

01:12:14   - I forgot that you had one of those.

01:12:17   Did we talk about this on the show?

01:12:18   - We did because, I think, because two things.

01:12:22   One is I got it on a, I think Prime Day

01:12:26   or pre-Prime Day kind of thing.

01:12:27   I got it for cheap.

01:12:28   And because people are like,

01:12:31   oh, I just, I just microwave my, whatever.

01:12:34   It was like, well, you know,

01:12:35   I leave my tea sitting here and it gets cool

01:12:37   and now it doesn't.

01:12:38   It stays that temperature forever, which is great.

01:12:40   Or for until the battery runs out,

01:12:41   which happens pretty quickly, but.

01:12:43   - It was a snow talk question apparently,

01:12:45   says Sava who submitted that snow talk question.

01:12:47   - And the timely part of it was that the Rishi Sunak,

01:12:51   the prime minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

01:12:54   he owns an Ember mug and somebody took a picture of him

01:13:00   with an ember mug before he was the prime minister.

01:13:02   And it was used when he became prime minister

01:13:04   as an example of how he is an out of touch rich guy

01:13:08   who doesn't understand regular people's needs

01:13:10   because he's using an ember mug, which I'd be like,

01:13:12   I think that maybe you could count how many houses he owns

01:13:15   and that might be a better example, but okay, sure.

01:13:18   The ember mug splurge on Amazon is the reason

01:13:22   that he is out of touch.

01:13:23   - Can I ask a question of you real quick?

01:13:25   Great Britain and Northern Ireland, what was that?

01:13:27   - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

01:13:30   right? He's the... you gotta... he's the United Kingdom!

01:13:32   Okay, so he's Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, but I started to say Great Britain,

01:13:35   and then I had to say Northern Ireland.

01:13:36   Oh, okay, okay, that makes sense then.

01:13:38   Because he's not just the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, he's Prime Minister of

01:13:42   all of GB.

01:13:44   Right, but...

01:13:46   He's the President of England, mate!

01:13:48   It was just very, like, brain-concusing.

01:13:51   I had to throw Northern Ireland in. Shoutout to Belfast. Come on.

01:13:55   You were just gonna say Great Britain, right? And then, so then, you did an about-one.

01:13:59   - And that's not accurate.

01:14:00   He's not just the Prime Minister of Great Britain.

01:14:02   - Right, but we call him the United Kingdom.

01:14:04   So like that, yes.

01:14:05   - But I went down the rung.

01:14:07   - He's the President of California

01:14:08   and all of the other states.

01:14:10   - Yes, well, for now.

01:14:12   If you buy an Ember mug.

01:14:15   - Anyway, so yes, you do have an Ember mug.

01:14:20   The new Ember travel mug, they have a travel mug.

01:14:22   I think the travel mug was their first product

01:14:25   and then they had the regular mug,

01:14:27   which I think is what you have.

01:14:28   - Yes, I just have the regular mug.

01:14:30   I don't have this giant travel thingy.

01:14:31   I just have, it's literally a mug with a thing

01:14:34   in the bottom that keeps my tea warm.

01:14:37   - But the new one, so it's a travel mug, right?

01:14:40   So you take it out and about,

01:14:41   is gonna support the Firemind network,

01:14:43   which I think is genius,

01:14:44   and more products should support this.

01:14:46   - Right, because it's actually a thing

01:14:48   that you would take out of the house,

01:14:49   whereas my Ember mug doesn't go outside the house ever,

01:14:52   'cause that would be, no, ridiculous.

01:14:56   But this is a travel mug, so it makes sense.

01:14:57   - Sure, why not?

01:14:58   - If you make a product that leaves the home

01:15:00   and has Bluetooth in it, it should support,

01:15:02   fine, my opinion, I think that's a great idea.

01:15:05   - By the way, I wanna mention this

01:15:06   'cause I did have a conversation with people

01:15:08   about the Ember mug where they're like,

01:15:09   I don't understand why you would have that,

01:15:10   I don't want a mug that's got an interface and all that.

01:15:12   And all I will say to that is,

01:15:15   I mean, this travel mug has,

01:15:17   I'm looking at the MacRumors story

01:15:19   by a friend of the show, Joe Rossignol.

01:15:21   And he, so he put an Ember supplied art

01:15:27   of their mug and it's got like a plus and minus

01:15:31   like interface area and a temperature readout on it.

01:15:35   The mug that I've got has no interface.

01:15:38   There's a button on the bottom that you can use

01:15:40   to turn it on and off and you can pair it with Bluetooth

01:15:43   in order to set your target temperature.

01:15:45   So I did that when I got it.

01:15:47   Since then, I use it like a mug.

01:15:51   There's no fiddling with anything.

01:15:54   You know, its interface will say,

01:15:55   "Oh, I've heated up your tea."

01:15:57   and it's like, I don't care.

01:15:58   All I do is put it in its charger.

01:16:00   No, all I do is put it in its charger.

01:16:02   And then when it's morning and I want tea,

01:16:04   I take it out of its charger,

01:16:05   which is like a little saucer,

01:16:07   basically in my kitchen counter,

01:16:09   and put the tea in it.

01:16:10   And it comes, it knows that there's hot stuff in it.

01:16:13   It comes on.

01:16:15   When the temperature goes below the threshold,

01:16:16   it keeps it back up to the threshold.

01:16:18   There's no interface to it.

01:16:19   And I just wanted to say that because

01:16:22   if I had to fiddle around with my phone

01:16:24   every time I drank a cup of tea,

01:16:25   I would have sent it back, right?

01:16:27   Like I'm not interested in that at all.

01:16:29   But at least there are on-device controls

01:16:33   for this travel mug.

01:16:34   So you're not having to go to an app to do it.

01:16:38   But still, I don't think I would endorse a product

01:16:41   that requires me to mess around with a display on it

01:16:44   or something like that for something like a teacup.

01:16:46   I just treat it like a teacup.

01:16:47   That's the good thing about it.

01:16:49   - I wanna give you one last piece of like,

01:16:52   support on the Ember mug is like a thing

01:16:54   of why it's not ridiculous and why it's better than microwaving.

01:17:00   So I follow a very popular YouTube coffee guy called James Hoffman and he did a review

01:17:06   of the Ember mug some time ago, like four years ago.

01:17:10   And I'm assuming this is the same for tea, but one of the things that he talks about

01:17:13   is like if you let a cup of coffee go cold and then put it in the microwave and heat

01:17:17   it up again, it changes the taste of it because the reheating of going cold and then reheating

01:17:24   again, will change the taste. There's some science to that. Go watch his video if you

01:17:27   want the science. So the idea, so what the Ember Mug does, it never lets the tea go cold,

01:17:33   so it will keep it tasting the same. So there is a benefit to this product if you enjoy

01:17:38   the thing you're drinking from the mug. Right, and if it goes for an infinite amount of time,

01:17:42   right, it's gonna be terrible, but in the short term it makes it better. And I'll tell

01:17:45   you, you know, I, again, I've got it on sale, it is kind of a ridiculous thing, I resisted

01:17:51   for a long time. You don't have to, I don't think you need to do that, but like you can buy whatever

01:17:55   you want. But I got it, and there are moments where I'm reminded why I have this thing instead

01:18:01   of using one of my fun mugs that I that I own, and the answer is I got half a cup of tea still left

01:18:08   in it and I stopped drinking it and put it down and then I pick it up and I taste it and it's

01:18:12   exactly the temperature that I would want it to be right out of the pot when I wanted to start

01:18:19   start drinking it. And it's delightful because that's that moment where you go, "Oh." In

01:18:24   a normal mug, it'd be like, "Oh, it's gotten cold." And you go back out and maybe put a

01:18:27   little more tea in it and put it in the microwave and heat it back up and then go back to bed

01:18:31   or whatever. And I just pick it up and I'm like, "Oh yeah, it's still, this is the, this

01:18:34   is the little thing doing its job." So it's, it's otherwise invisible in terms of interface.

01:18:39   I think we've said this before about smart stuff. Like my favorite smart tech stuff is

01:18:44   after you set it up, does not need to be played with, right?

01:18:49   Like it'll just do what it needs to do.

01:18:51   And like, I don't need to know about its Bluetooth.

01:18:54   I don't need to know about its battery.

01:18:55   All I know is that I wash it out

01:18:57   and park it on its little home and drink tea out of it.

01:19:00   And otherwise I know nothing about it

01:19:03   as a technology product.

01:19:04   And that's how I like it.

01:19:05   - The best kinds of smart products are

01:19:08   when the app allows for, if you say,

01:19:10   set up and troubleshooting.

01:19:11   And then other than that,

01:19:13   you just use it like you would want to.

01:19:17   Like life.

01:19:18   Like life.

01:19:19   Use it like life.

01:19:20   Dennis.

01:19:21   That's the new slogan.

01:19:22   Of ours.

01:19:23   Richie Sunac says.

01:19:24   Oh, ok.

01:19:25   Embermug.

01:19:26   Richie Sunac says to use it like life.

01:19:28   This episode is brought to you by Capital One.

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01:20:46   Let's finish up today with some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:20:51   Jonathan asks, with the holidays ending, what do you do with the holiday specific items

01:20:56   you have in HomeKit? We have a smart outlet for our Christmas tree that Siri constantly

01:21:01   reports isn't responding.

01:21:03   I wanted to ask this question Jason because yesterday I took down my Christmas tree and

01:21:07   we had the Hue lights, it's a bit of follow up, really nice.

01:21:10   I was very happy with that purchase, I bought the Hue Christmas lights remember?

01:21:14   Way back when they came out.

01:21:15   Really like them, they are very good, you can obviously go wild with the colors but

01:21:20   they have some really nice effects.

01:21:22   I was very happy with my purchase of the Hue Christmas lights.

01:21:24   But then this morning I was doing something in my home kit and it had the little dot and

01:21:28   it's like the Christmas lights aren't responding because I've unplugged them and now I don't

01:21:32   Like what am I supposed to do?

01:21:34   Do I delete them from HomeKit?

01:21:35   Like what do you do?

01:21:36   - Yeah, I mean, that's what I do is depending,

01:21:41   I have some, let's see, it varies.

01:21:46   When I'm just putting them away,

01:21:48   I usually just take them away and I leave them.

01:21:50   I don't rename them, but if it bothers you,

01:21:54   then yeah, you just remove them

01:21:55   and then you re add them next time.

01:21:58   If you're next time you need to use them.

01:22:00   So it really, it varies for me.

01:22:01   I don't do as good a job of that.

01:22:03   I have some, like, I can't connect to this one switches

01:22:07   that are just unplugged,

01:22:08   but you can always just remove them and that'll be fine.

01:22:14   Just repair them.

01:22:14   It just makes sure you've got the little pairing code.

01:22:16   It'll be fine.

01:22:17   - Yeah, but it's, yeah.

01:22:20   I mean, that's probably what I will end up doing.

01:22:22   I wish there was just a way to be like,

01:22:24   don't worry about this one, you know?

01:22:25   Like, just don't worry about this one.

01:22:27   It's fine, but.

01:22:28   - Oh, I agree.

01:22:29   - I agree, you should be able to put it in timeout

01:22:32   or something, but I think the answer is you remove it,

01:22:35   and that's how you put it in timeout.

01:22:37   - Put it in the little penalty box?

01:22:40   - Uh, yeah, exactly.

01:22:41   You think about what you've done, which is your job well.

01:22:46   Good job, but now it's over.

01:22:47   - Andrew asks, "If you use a MacBook and an external display,

01:22:52   "do you keep the MacBook open or closed?

01:22:55   "Personally, I can't stand using a tiny MacBook screen

01:22:58   next to a big display, it feels off balance.

01:23:00   Do you ever do this?

01:23:02   Do you ever do this?

01:23:03   Like plug your laptop in?

01:23:05   - No, I used to at work and I started,

01:23:09   I had a stand that was a,

01:23:12   it was a VESA mount for a display

01:23:16   and then it had a little laptop thing right next to it.

01:23:19   So you could put your laptop in it

01:23:20   and it would be kind of like next to your display open.

01:23:23   And what I very rapidly realized was

01:23:27   the little display set back, I never used it.

01:23:30   So then I ran them closed, and then at some point

01:23:33   I got rid of that stand and just ran with lid closed.

01:23:37   So my answer from back when I did this

01:23:38   is I always ran it lid closed.

01:23:40   - Yeah, I do it exactly the same.

01:23:44   So like when I use it right now, it's just like,

01:23:47   it just feels, I know I could have extra screen real estate

01:23:49   and I do like having multiple screens,

01:23:52   but I feel like there has to be some kind of

01:23:54   relative size consistency and a 14 inch screen next to a 28 inch screen just feels off.

01:24:01   Right, like there's just something about that that's not right to me so I also will close it.

01:24:06   And like I tried doing the thing where you raise the screen, right, so maybe that would help but

01:24:11   that didn't help either. There was always just an issue with the with the relative sizing that I

01:24:16   did not like and so I also run lid closed on my laptop when plugged into my studio display every

01:24:23   day. Kevin asks, "Jason thinks that the regular iPhone 14 will get to Dynamic Island, and

01:24:30   Mark Gorman does now too, but what about MacBook notches? Dynamic Islands for everyone?"

01:24:37   I mean, in the long run, on laptops, I mean we're already there basically, for any laptop

01:24:46   that matters. So yes, but will it be a dynamic island? I think no, because I think the menu

01:24:53   bar is your dynamic island on the Mac, if that's what Kevin means. And on desktop, I

01:25:00   again I kind of don't see it because the menu bar is there and there's no need to do a cutout

01:25:04   on the Mac, so I don't think it's going to happen there. iPad's an interesting question,

01:25:10   whether they might do a dynamic island there, but you know, I don't know.

01:25:13   - iPad is that weird middle child, right?

01:25:16   Like does it do what the Mac does

01:25:18   or does it do what the iPhone does?

01:25:22   - 'Cause it has a status bar, right?

01:25:23   So it could just sort of expand the status bar

01:25:26   and use that and not need a dynamic island.

01:25:29   Or Apple could really push the design on the iPad

01:25:33   out even closer to the edges of the display

01:25:36   and have a cutout and do the dynamic island.

01:25:38   It's really sort of a question of how they wanna do it.

01:25:41   But on the Mac, the menu bar is the dynamic island

01:25:43   And I think the notch is there

01:25:45   as long as they need it to be there.

01:25:46   But I think it's just gonna be,

01:25:48   I don't see how,

01:25:50   I mean, it's possible that they would add a dynamic island

01:25:52   to that notch,

01:25:54   but it would just basically be like

01:25:57   around the outsides of it.

01:25:58   And I don't know,

01:25:59   you're just kind of replicating the Mac menu bar

01:26:00   at that point.

01:26:01   I don't see the point.

01:26:02   - Okay, asked, have you both seen "Knives Out,

01:26:06   Glass Onion?"

01:26:06   What did you think?

01:26:08   - Yeah, I loved it.

01:26:09   We watched it Christmas night,

01:26:12   Boxing Day night, something like that, the whole family.

01:26:14   And we loved it.

01:26:16   - Absolute delight of a movie.

01:26:18   No spoilers, particularly.

01:26:21   - Bring me more Benoit Blanc.

01:26:22   I want more, I mean, they signed for two movies,

01:26:24   so there will be more Benoit Blanc on Netflix.

01:26:27   - These movies make me happy

01:26:29   because I feel like Daniel Craig is happy.

01:26:31   I feel like he's only doing,

01:26:34   like you would only take these movies on

01:26:37   for the fun of it.

01:26:39   Because he does the accent,

01:26:40   which he does not need to do, right?

01:26:42   It is not necessary.

01:26:44   The accent is, like, you know,

01:26:45   it's not needed for the character,

01:26:48   but he does it, and I just think,

01:26:51   he just looks like he's having a great time in these movies,

01:26:53   which makes me happy 'cause I love Daniel Craig,

01:26:55   but also these movies are just fantastic.

01:26:57   Like, I think they have a proven formula now

01:27:00   of like, he goes and does a thing,

01:27:02   and it's now like a bunch of people whose faces you know,

01:27:05   or like, you really know who they are.

01:27:07   like this time way like bigger budget cost I feel like right and yeah I hope they just continue to

01:27:16   make these movies for as long as you know Daniel Craig and Ryan Johnson want to make them because

01:27:21   this movie like I love Knives Out and Knives Out 2 I think is better than Knives Out in every way

01:27:29   even though I already love Knives Out you know what I mean like I just think they

01:27:34   had an increased budget and I think that that really helped the second movie. Just a treat.

01:27:39   If you would like to send in an Ask Upgrade question, just click the link in your show

01:27:50   notes to submit feedback or go to Upgradefeedback.com or you can send them in with

01:27:57   of question mark ask upgrade in the relay FM members discord and you can send in your

01:28:03   questions to us that way for us to answer on a future episode of the show if you want

01:28:09   to find us online in the meantime go to six colors dot com for Jason's work what else

01:28:17   the incomparable obviously lots of shows here on relay FM but then what's the next part

01:28:23   for you right now.

01:28:25   - What do you mean?

01:28:26   - Is there like, you can, is that Jason L?

01:28:28   - What's next?

01:28:29   - @jasonl@masterdawn.social, is that the correct one?

01:28:32   - No, let's not talk about social.

01:28:33   Let's just not do it. - None of that?

01:28:34   - All right, follow up, how about this?

01:28:37   If you wanna follow up about anything we talked about,

01:28:40   I pay attention to the show,

01:28:41   follow up channel in the Relay FM member discord.

01:28:45   - Lovely, also fantastic.

01:28:47   And you can get access to that

01:28:49   and you can hear about our experiences

01:28:51   of using Freeform for today's episode by going to getupgradeplus.com where you can sign up

01:28:57   and become a member and you'll get ad-free longer episodes of Upgrade each and every

01:29:01   week.

01:29:02   If you want to find me online, you can go to mikehurley.net where you can find all of

01:29:05   my various projects and I am @imike on Instagram.

01:29:09   I'm still going for that one.

01:29:10   That's my social place.

01:29:11   But of course I am here on Reel AFM on many shows and there are lots of wonderful shows

01:29:17   here at Reel AFM that you can add to your podcast queue.

01:29:20   Thanks again to our sponsors of this week's episode, the fine folk over at TextExpander,

01:29:26   Capital One, and ExpressVPN.

01:29:28   But most of all, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.

01:29:32   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

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