438: Holiday Antitrust Special


00:00:00   (bells ringing)

00:00:02   (upbeat music)

00:00:06   - From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 438.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by TextExpander,

00:00:15   Fitbod, and Zocdoc.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley,

00:00:18   and I'm joined by Jason "Claws" Snow.

00:00:22   - Ho, ho, ho, Myke.

00:00:24   Happy holidays, Merry Christmas to you and to everyone.

00:00:28   and this is our holiday special, I guess.

00:00:31   It's not, how special is it?

00:00:32   - This is our holiday antitrust special!

00:00:35   Oh!

00:00:36   - No!

00:00:37   - Too much news this week!

00:00:40   - Too much, yes.

00:00:42   We got you a present, the present is news.

00:00:45   - The present is the Digital Markets Act

00:00:48   has been wrapped and put under a tree for you.

00:00:50   We're gonna talk about it.

00:00:52   - Oh, so no, no, I think it's in the stocking.

00:00:54   It's like you were very bad

00:00:55   and you got a Digital Markets Act in your stocking

00:00:58   - And Apple has been given a bag of coal,

00:01:01   and that coal is legislation.

00:01:04   - And we as podcasters burn that coal.

00:01:07   - Turn it into fuel.

00:01:10   - Fuel for podcasts.

00:01:11   - Wow, this is a wonderful metaphor.

00:01:14   - And it's a Christmas miracle.

00:01:16   And it's Hanukkah, so also that coal,

00:01:18   it's really only enough for one night,

00:01:21   but it burns for eight.

00:01:23   - That's the real magic.

00:01:24   Yeah, this should only be one episode.

00:01:26   We're gonna get eight out of it.

00:01:28   And that is the true Hanukkah miracle.

00:01:30   - Oh man, yeah.

00:01:32   - I have a hashtag Snail Talk question,

00:01:34   which I'm actually gonna start transitioning this

00:01:36   to just becoming Snail Talk.

00:01:38   I have a Snail Talk question for you, Jason.

00:01:40   - Oh wow, you just blew my mind with that, okay.

00:01:43   All right. - I have a Snail Talk

00:01:44   question for you, it comes from Chris who wants to know,

00:01:46   if you close all of the windows of an app on the Mac,

00:01:50   do you also quit that app?

00:01:51   - So I don't have, I mean, my policy here is not,

00:01:56   like if all the windows are closed, then you quit the app.

00:02:00   First of all, I'm gonna recognize that people

00:02:02   who come from Windows probably have a very weird

00:02:05   relationship with the way the Mac handles windows

00:02:08   in that you close all the windows of an app

00:02:10   and the app doesn't close automatically,

00:02:12   except for some apps that do now, which drives me crazy.

00:02:16   But okay, so the answer is generally no,

00:02:21   because if I'm closing all the windows,

00:02:25   - Well, I mean, it depends.

00:02:28   Sometimes I just quit the app, right?

00:02:30   And you leave the windows open and they come back.

00:02:32   Sometimes you close the windows and you don't quit the app

00:02:35   because you're gonna come back to the app

00:02:36   and it just doesn't have any windows right now.

00:02:39   And other times you close all the windows

00:02:41   and then you quit the app because you're done with your job

00:02:44   and you're not gonna go back there.

00:02:45   Like if I'm in Photoshop or something and I finish,

00:02:47   I'll save it and I'll close it and I'll quit it.

00:02:49   And yes, maybe that's muscle memory from 1990.

00:02:52   But, so it totally varies based on like my intentions

00:02:56   toward that app.

00:02:56   And I don't do a thing,

00:02:57   I'm not concerned about having kind of extra apps running

00:03:01   without windows open, just sitting there.

00:03:04   Also, all the running processes are in the dock.

00:03:07   So if I do leave something open and then I look over later

00:03:10   and I'm like, oh, why is Zoom still open?

00:03:12   I'll just quit it then.

00:03:14   But a lot of times I'm coming,

00:03:17   I know I'm coming back to that app,

00:03:18   so I won't worry about it.

00:03:19   I'll just leave it open.

00:03:21   I typically, like, if I'm quitting an app,

00:03:24   I reflexively command W, command Q.

00:03:28   - Interesting.

00:03:29   - I just don't want the app open.

00:03:31   And sometimes it's, this is the thing,

00:03:33   it depends on the app,

00:03:34   but sometimes I wish that quitting the app

00:03:36   closed all the windows,

00:03:37   but sometimes I don't want that to happen also, you know?

00:03:40   So like, it's, I'm just used to doing both.

00:03:43   - Yeah, the, like BB edit, like I write in BB edit,

00:03:48   and I do lots of work in BB edit.

00:03:49   I don't quit BB edit.

00:03:50   I close Windows, like BBA is open right now with no windows open.

00:03:54   Because I'm gonna be over there, right?

00:03:57   Like I'm gonna make more windows, so like I'm just gonna leave it open.

00:03:59   I have lots of RAM, I don't care.

00:04:01   I could, I mean, honestly we're at the point now where for a lot of apps it really doesn't

00:04:06   matter.

00:04:07   There are apps that take forever to load, but for the most part, like the difference

00:04:10   between clicking on the dock for an app that's not open and clicking on the dock for an app

00:04:15   that is open is insubstantial, right?

00:04:18   It doesn't matter.

00:04:21   And I think Apple would like it to be that way.

00:04:23   But like Photoshop's a great example where like if I'm doing things in Photoshop, I'm

00:04:27   going to keep Photoshop open because when you open Photoshop, you sit there and then

00:04:31   the window comes up with a picture of the lady from the Lord of the Rings show who's

00:04:35   dressed like Captain Marvel.

00:04:37   And then you wait and you wait and you wait.

00:04:40   Photoshop people know what I'm talking about.

00:04:42   And then finally it opens.

00:04:43   So that one you want to keep open unless you are done.

00:04:48   But I do love, and it used to be back in the day

00:04:51   that launching an app took forever.

00:04:52   And so you really wouldn't want to,

00:04:54   although you didn't have very much RAM,

00:04:55   but like, if I'm gonna use this later,

00:04:58   I'm gonna keep it open now because,

00:05:00   but not too much later,

00:05:01   because I don't wanna have to sit through the launch again.

00:05:04   Today, it doesn't matter so much, right?

00:05:06   It doesn't matter so much.

00:05:07   So I'm a lot less concerned about it.

00:05:11   But if I figure I'm gonna use it later,

00:05:13   I just leave it open 'cause I don't know why,

00:05:14   because why would I close it?

00:05:16   What does it matter?

00:05:17   If you would like to send in a Snowtalk question of your own,

00:05:20   you can use the Relay FM members Discord

00:05:22   with the question mark Snowtalk command,

00:05:26   you can send in your question.

00:05:28   You can currently still use Twitter.

00:05:29   You can use the hashtag Snowtalk

00:05:31   and send a submission that way too.

00:05:33   - And if you don't have either of those,

00:05:38   at the very least you could go to relay.fm/upgrade

00:05:43   and click on the, what is the link called?

00:05:48   Contact.

00:05:50   - It's called contact and it'll send an email.

00:05:52   I really don't want it, but if you got to do it,

00:05:54   like go for it, you know,

00:05:55   but we're working on something better.

00:05:57   - Yeah, here's our message is that right now

00:05:59   that's how you do it, but in the near future,

00:06:01   there will be a way for you to send,

00:06:03   we might even say tweet length,

00:06:05   feedback about the show, Snell Talk, Ask Upgrade,

00:06:09   all via the Relay FM website,

00:06:11   because we know a lot of people are not on Twitter,

00:06:14   a lot of people are now,

00:06:15   even more people are not on Twitter,

00:06:18   and not everybody pays for Upgrade Plus.

00:06:21   And you're not shut out of these other ways.

00:06:25   So we realize that just having the Discord is not enough,

00:06:29   and just having Twitter as a vector is not enough,

00:06:33   it never really has been enough,

00:06:35   but we're trying to find a better way to-

00:06:37   - We're gonna have something better.

00:06:38   - Get that stuff in.

00:06:39   - There's a couple of things in it.

00:06:40   we can't really use the way that we pull questions

00:06:43   from Twitter doesn't work on Mastodon

00:06:45   'cause there isn't like a global search function

00:06:49   in the automation tools that we use,

00:06:51   so we just can't do it.

00:06:53   And if, and what I'll say is like, oh yeah,

00:06:55   I'm not, I'm historically and publicly not a fan of email,

00:06:59   but if you do wanna email a Snail Talk

00:07:02   and ask upgrade questions, go for it,

00:07:04   but please keep them tweet length.

00:07:06   Like, just keep them, one question, you know?

00:07:08   Like that's all I ask.

00:07:10   But yeah, feel free to use that related FM session upgrade.

00:07:14   - But we will get something better

00:07:16   that will hopefully like auto feed into our spreadsheet

00:07:19   and do all of those things.

00:07:20   - It's gonna be awesome.

00:07:21   - We aren't there yet.

00:07:23   - We need a little bit of time for that

00:07:24   because things have been changing rapidly.

00:07:27   Got some follow up.

00:07:30   So you had Sam write in who was on the verticals episode.

00:07:37   - Yeah, Sam Abu El-Samid,

00:07:38   who was one of our vertical guests,

00:07:40   sent a very nice email after our upshift last week.

00:07:43   I feel like we got a lot of it right.

00:07:45   He did point out in another little bit of follow-up

00:07:48   that I'll throw in here,

00:07:49   I kept talking about level four and level five

00:07:52   for levels of self-driving.

00:07:57   And what he said is,

00:07:58   the truth is those are bad definitions

00:08:01   because they're like definitions from computer people

00:08:03   about how this works.

00:08:05   and the way humans and drivers especially think about this

00:08:09   doesn't really map to it very well.

00:08:11   So sometimes I was referring to like full hands,

00:08:15   you know, hands off the steering wheel,

00:08:16   eyes off the road driving as being like level five.

00:08:20   And he said like, technically I think level four,

00:08:22   if it's on a highway, level five on regular streets.

00:08:26   But his point was for most of us,

00:08:27   the best way to think about it is eyes off the road,

00:08:30   hands off the wheel.

00:08:31   Like that level of I don't even need to be looking,

00:08:34   I can be reading my email or watching a movie

00:08:37   and the car will take care of it.

00:08:39   That is the pinnacle.

00:08:41   And then the level down from that is hands on the wheel,

00:08:44   eyes on the road, but it's doing the steering for you.

00:08:47   And so that was good.

00:08:49   It's a complicated subject.

00:08:52   But the other thing that Sam suggested

00:08:54   that I thought was interesting was he said,

00:08:57   "You guys were talking about Apple buying a car company

00:09:02   like Tesla or something like that."

00:09:04   And he pointed out Lucid, which makes the Lucid Air,

00:09:08   which is a shipping electric car

00:09:10   that's in the sort of price range

00:09:12   of what Apple's car is rumored to be.

00:09:14   - And a lot of the reviews are saying

00:09:16   this is like a legit competitor for like the Model S.

00:09:19   People seem to really like this car.

00:09:21   - For the high-end Tesla,

00:09:22   which it shows you the squeeze that the Tesla's facing,

00:09:24   by the way, is that their high-end cars

00:09:26   have competition from companies like Lucid

00:09:29   and their lower-end cars have competition

00:09:32   from all the other car makers,

00:09:34   and then they've got a truck coming out,

00:09:36   but they've missed, you know,

00:09:37   Rivian and Chevy are already out there.

00:09:39   - Ford. - Chevy, no, Ford.

00:09:40   Ford is already out there.

00:09:42   So, yes.

00:09:43   So anyway, Sam suggested, you know, Lucid,

00:09:46   current valuation, like Apple could buy Lucid

00:09:48   with a small portion of the cash that Apple has,

00:09:52   and it's a product that is shipping.

00:09:54   They have cars now, and I'll point out

00:09:57   that just from my own personal connections here,

00:09:59   Their head of PR used to be Apple's head of PR.

00:10:02   And they worked at Apple for a couple decades.

00:10:05   So there's even a connection there.

00:10:07   So, you know, Tim could get on the phone.

00:10:09   So it's interesting 'cause like,

00:10:11   that would be a big move, right?

00:10:12   But, and I do think there's a not invented here

00:10:14   kind of approach, but if Apple really said,

00:10:17   "No, no, no, we're dedicated to be a serious player in cars."

00:10:19   They could, there are,

00:10:20   there's at least one electric car company out there

00:10:22   that's not Tesla that they could also potentially snap up.

00:10:25   - It's complicated though, right?

00:10:27   Because-

00:10:27   And it was started by the guy who designed the Model S, I think.

00:10:32   - Of course. - Yeah.

00:10:33   But like, if Apple roll up and we're buying Lucid,

00:10:37   I mean, you kind of can't ignore it then.

00:10:39   Roll up.

00:10:40   Hey, or like park alongside.

00:10:42   You know what, they can't be like,

00:10:44   "Hey, we're buying this car company.

00:10:46   Forget about what we might be doing with it."

00:10:48   No, then the cat's out of the bag.

00:10:49   Isn't the cat already out of the bag

00:10:51   except for Apple pretending that it's not?

00:10:53   I mean, yeah, but they--

00:10:55   Everybody's talking about it.

00:10:56   Everybody's talking about it,

00:10:57   but they could just say,

00:10:58   "Oh, this whole thing was just for CarPlay."

00:10:59   Like, you know what I mean?

00:11:00   Like, not that they would say that,

00:11:01   but we could be like, you know.

00:11:03   - I'm sure they've talked about it, right?

00:11:04   I'm sure they've had that conversation of,

00:11:06   should we, and they haven't.

00:11:07   - I'm sure they consider buying everything.

00:11:09   You know what, like, why would you, you know,

00:11:11   every time they sit down to start something,

00:11:13   I'm sure there's at least one person around the table

00:11:15   who very rightly says like,

00:11:17   you know, "Okay, we wanna do Apple TV Plus.

00:11:18   Hey, should we buy Netflix?

00:11:19   What do you think?"

00:11:20   You know, that's gotta happen every time.

00:11:22   - Yeah, we wanna make an Apple TV.

00:11:23   Should we buy Roku?

00:11:24   probably said that too, right? Like, and a lot of times the right thing, I mean, it's

00:11:29   not just not invented here syndrome. It's also, um, what do we get out of it? And is

00:11:34   that better than us doing it ourselves? Right? Because sometimes the answer is, uh, they

00:11:40   don't really have anything unique. We could build it too. It's all we'll be buying is

00:11:45   their people and their design and, um, and making it like our own. And at that point

00:11:51   we should do it. It has happened occasionally. Apple Music is a great example where they

00:11:54   use the foundations of beats for that, but it doesn't happen more often than it does.

00:11:59   Apple Music is the perfect example. I also think of Intel's modem division.

00:12:05   Yeah, right. They weren't going to spin up their own, but that one was available when

00:12:10   they took it. Or at least they'd seen nothing from it.

00:12:12   Maybe tried, maybe started, and was like, "You know what? It might be a good idea if

00:12:15   we just acquire all of this." Yeah.

00:12:18   Tim Cook is back on the road, this time he's in Japan.

00:12:21   Tim has been visiting schools, developers,

00:12:23   practicing his golf partying, visiting castles,

00:12:26   meeting Paralympians, seeing music presentations

00:12:28   at Apple stores, meeting the Japanese Prime Minister,

00:12:31   and more.

00:12:32   One notable stop was to visit Sony.

00:12:35   Now the reason this is notable is Tim Cook

00:12:38   publicly references, you know, he posted it on Twitter

00:12:41   and such, that Sony are Apple's partner

00:12:45   for the camera sensors in the iPhone.

00:12:47   This is a thing that we've known about forever,

00:12:49   but they never talk about it.

00:12:51   And I just thought that was an interesting

00:12:53   little thing that happened.

00:12:55   - Yeah, I think it's okay, right?

00:12:57   This is one of those things where Sony is a respected

00:13:00   company and has a respected, so they're like, yeah,

00:13:03   these are our partners for the camera that is in the iPhone

00:13:07   that's amazing and we met with them.

00:13:10   But yeah, there were no, no,

00:13:13   I don't think Eddie came on this one, so.

00:13:15   I know Jaws was there, but I don't think Eddie came

00:13:17   So there's no like lederhosen equivalent for this.

00:13:20   - And this is one of those like perfect photos

00:13:23   that Tim Cook does.

00:13:24   And my favorite is in the Verge article,

00:13:28   they caption this photo,

00:13:30   which is Tim Cook being shown an iPhone.

00:13:33   It's like these images where like someone at Sony

00:13:35   is showing Tim Cook an iPhone,

00:13:37   and Tim is looking at it like he's never seen one before.

00:13:40   - Interesting, interesting.

00:13:42   Hmm, what is this phone?

00:13:43   Where did you get this incredible device?

00:13:48   It has cameras on it?

00:13:50   - Cameras, yeah.

00:13:51   - Wow, I love it, so funny.

00:13:53   - Tim Cook being shown an iPhone.

00:13:56   - Belkin made a mount for continuity camera

00:13:59   for the laptops, right?

00:14:00   So the little thing you clip onto the top

00:14:02   of your laptop screen.

00:14:03   - Yep, I have one in my left hand right now.

00:14:04   - And you could attach your iPhone to it.

00:14:07   And there was a hope that they would make one

00:14:09   for the monitors, for Apple's monitors.

00:14:12   And then it was said that they would,

00:14:13   and now is in the US at least available for ordering.

00:14:17   - Yeah, it's in my right hand right now.

00:14:19   - Tell me what you think about it.

00:14:20   - It's a, I've had a pre-production unit for a while now,

00:14:23   which I've sort of kept a light touch on a little bit

00:14:25   because it's like pre-production, it's not final.

00:14:28   I got the shipping one, it's identical

00:14:29   to the pre-production one I had.

00:14:31   - There you go.

00:14:32   - And I should be clear, it is essentially

00:14:34   a universal MagSafe continuity camera mount.

00:14:37   - Yes, 'cause it's like you can kind of clip it on, right?

00:14:41   I was pretty intrigued about it.

00:14:42   - Yeah, so it's got a flap that comes down

00:14:45   that you put on the front, on the, so, okay.

00:14:49   It's got the horizontal thing.

00:14:50   There's a perpendicular-ish but pivoting magnetic puck.

00:14:54   There is a thing that comes out from that,

00:14:57   perpendicularly, that is a rigid plane

00:15:02   with a little, like, hook at the front of it,

00:15:06   little shelf at the front of it pointing down.

00:15:09   And the idea here is you can,

00:15:11   you put that on the top of your monitor

00:15:13   and the little hook prevents it

00:15:14   from falling off the back, right?

00:15:16   You can actually slide the little MagSafe puck forward

00:15:19   a little bit if you want to, to get a little bit closer.

00:15:21   And then there's a second pivoting thing below

00:15:25   the thing that goes on the top of your monitor.

00:15:27   And that goes on the back, right?

00:15:29   And so you bend it and you end up in a position

00:15:33   where it's basically got,

00:15:35   it's holding on to the front of the monitor

00:15:37   via the little hook thing

00:15:38   and the weight is being put onto the back of the monitor

00:15:41   by the little leg and you've got it.

00:15:44   And it's so deep that it can fit on a very large display

00:15:49   because it's, and it's adjustable.

00:15:52   So it's not one of these like precise fit kind of things.

00:15:54   And that means that it can be available

00:15:56   for all sorts of different displays.

00:15:57   And then that little foot that you put

00:16:01   on the back of the display has a tripod thread in it.

00:16:05   So you can also put it on a tripod and use it that way.

00:16:09   So it's versatile, works pretty well.

00:16:12   If the only thing I'll warn people about,

00:16:14   it's not much of a warning,

00:16:15   but like if you've got a studio display

00:16:16   or something like that,

00:16:17   it's not, like I said,

00:16:21   not custom fit for the studio display.

00:16:23   It's not what it is.

00:16:24   It's more like a universal fit thing.

00:16:26   So it will overhang.

00:16:29   It will, you know, it's much,

00:16:31   the mount is much deeper

00:16:32   than the actual depth of the display,

00:16:35   but that's fine because then you--

00:16:36   - This is better.

00:16:37   This looks like a better product.

00:16:39   - It's good.

00:16:39   It's much more versatile than the one for the MacBooks,

00:16:43   right, which is a very small thing.

00:16:45   This is a much more versatile.

00:16:47   - And I'm assuming that it doesn't make your studio display

00:16:51   fall over, you know?

00:16:52   - It doesn't.

00:16:53   Although it's much heavier than that now,

00:16:55   but it can afford to be.

00:16:58   And then having the tripod thing,

00:16:59   I think is a nice little extra too that you can do.

00:17:01   So if you want to attach a MagSafe phone to a tripod,

00:17:06   it works for that too.

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00:19:05   It's time to mosey on down, partner,

00:19:09   to the rumor roundup.

00:19:11   - Oh, right.

00:19:12   - Got a few little things here.

00:19:13   I've got some display stuff.

00:19:14   So display analyst Ross Young is reporting

00:19:16   that Apple is readying a 15.5 inch MacBook Air

00:19:21   for release in spring of 2023.

00:19:25   Production on the displays for this device

00:19:27   is expected to be occurring in Q1.

00:19:30   So then this would launch a little later on.

00:19:33   This product is expected to be a larger version

00:19:36   of the current M2 Air, right?

00:19:39   So.

00:19:40   - Yeah, so 15.5 inch MacBook Air.

00:19:42   I think this is great.

00:19:44   I just wrote about this for, you know, my year,

00:19:48   my preview basically of next year for Mac world.

00:19:50   And I know we've talked about it here too.

00:19:53   The idea that Apple's most popular Mac

00:19:57   only comes in one version.

00:20:02   I mean, two, if you count that the old version

00:20:04   is still for sale and they're both 13 inch laptops.

00:20:09   So there's a lot, like the MacBook Air could,

00:20:13   and then if you want a bigger one,

00:20:15   you've got to buy a MacBook Pro, which seems like,

00:20:19   And we know where those start at, right?

00:20:20   Those are, leaving that weird 13-inch model aside,

00:20:24   like now you're up at $2,000.

00:20:26   So creating a, I don't know, $1,500, $1,600,

00:20:30   somewhere in there, a big MacBook Air,

00:20:33   I think it's incredibly smart

00:20:36   because the Air is incredibly popular.

00:20:38   People who might want more screen space

00:20:41   don't necessarily wanna buy a pro laptop.

00:20:43   And so why make them?

00:20:45   Why make them do that?

00:20:46   - There is such a huge price delta

00:20:49   between the Air and the MacBook Pro.

00:20:52   - And I know the answer is gonna be,

00:20:53   well, you make them 'cause they pay more,

00:20:55   but I would argue that they won't pay more.

00:20:56   I would argue that most of those people

00:20:58   will just get the MacBook Air then.

00:21:00   But you might be able to convert a certain number

00:21:03   of the MacBook Air people to pay more

00:21:05   for a larger MacBook Air,

00:21:06   and I don't think that it's gonna result

00:21:08   in a lot of lost sales for the MacBook Pro

00:21:10   now that the MacBook Pro is so expensive.

00:21:12   - Yep, like to get anything bigger than 13 inches,

00:21:15   it starts at $2,000.

00:21:17   - Yeah, and that's the beginning, right?

00:21:19   That's just the base model.

00:21:21   So yes, I think this is a great idea.

00:21:25   In the past, Apple has had this,

00:21:26   they used to have a big MacBook and all of that.

00:21:28   And I would imagine thinking about the design

00:21:31   of the 13 inch MacBook Air, the M2,

00:21:33   that this'll be still pretty thin and pretty light,

00:21:38   but with a much larger display.

00:21:41   And I think display size is not like,

00:21:44   Okay, here's my nutshell argument about this is,

00:21:47   one, the M2 is so powerful that almost nobody needs

00:21:51   an M2 Pro or an M2 Max when those come out,

00:21:54   or even the M1 Pro and Max.

00:21:55   Like almost nobody actually needs it.

00:21:58   It's so powerful.

00:22:00   Yes, it would, you know, there's stuff that I do

00:22:02   that would be slower, but like almost nobody needs it.

00:22:05   And we've talked about it here, like we love it,

00:22:07   even though it might be slower for a few things,

00:22:09   like it's fine, it's great.

00:22:12   So that's number one.

00:22:14   And number two is they don't need screen size

00:22:17   and processor power to be differentiators

00:22:20   to sell MacBook Pros anyway.

00:22:22   I feel like the number one reason,

00:22:24   sure, everybody who needs the processor power

00:22:25   will get a MacBook Pro,

00:22:26   but the number one reason you get a MacBook Pro now

00:22:28   is the other stuff.

00:22:31   It's ports and ProMotion and super bright display

00:22:36   that's super HDR, right?

00:22:40   Like those are the reasons, right?

00:22:43   it's all the other niceties that are not on the Air

00:22:46   that are the reason you do that upgrade, plus the power.

00:22:49   Like there's plenty of differentiation there.

00:22:51   So I think they can make a larger MacBook Air screen

00:22:55   and it's not gonna hurt the MacBook Pro,

00:22:56   but I think it's gonna make them a lot of money

00:22:58   from people who are buying larger screen.

00:23:01   - If the MacBook Air is truly as popular

00:23:04   and like takes as much of the market as Apple says it does,

00:23:09   then they should apply the iPhone thinking to it, right?

00:23:12   like make the popular one bigger as well.

00:23:16   And like, hey, maybe it will be people will be like,

00:23:19   well, I want to get a MacBook Air

00:23:21   because it's the one that's the starting price

00:23:23   and it's the one that people get

00:23:24   and I don't need a MacBook Pro.

00:23:26   Oh, and hey, I could spend an extra $200

00:23:28   and get a bigger one, I'll do that.

00:23:31   And like, that's what they're going to go for, right?

00:23:32   That's what this product's for.

00:23:33   It's for that purchasing decision that people might go on.

00:23:37   So yeah, I think this is an interesting idea

00:23:40   And I'd like to see them do more with the MacBook Air

00:23:43   'cause I think that the MacBook Air is fantastic

00:23:47   and more Macs, more Macs.

00:23:50   - And it actually kind of fits in with the iPhone

00:23:54   or the iPad when you think about it, right?

00:23:55   Like that there's, in that case, there's base model

00:23:58   and then there's Air and there's Pro.

00:24:00   So you have Air and Pro leaves, you know,

00:24:04   leaves the door open for a MacBook down the road.

00:24:07   But there's a question in the Discord about

00:24:09   why don't I just call it MacBook then?

00:24:12   And the answer is,

00:24:13   'cause MacBook Air is a popular product.

00:24:14   It's their most popular product.

00:24:16   That's the name of it.

00:24:16   Why would you change the name of it?

00:24:18   In fact, they sort of tried that and it didn't work.

00:24:20   Like this is, you go with what works.

00:24:22   It's like why it's called iPhone,

00:24:24   even though it should be called Apple phone now.

00:24:26   It's because everybody knows it's the iPhone.

00:24:28   It's the most popular product.

00:24:30   They're not gonna change the name.

00:24:31   MacBook Air, they're not gonna change the name.

00:24:33   - Yeah, I think you're right.

00:24:34   I would like them to just call it MacBook,

00:24:36   but the MacBook Air, it's a powerful brand.

00:24:40   - I mean, the 15.5 could be called MacBook

00:24:42   or it could be called MacBook Plus,

00:24:44   or it could be, I mean, they could call it something else.

00:24:46   - They could.

00:24:47   - But I will take this from Ross Young though.

00:24:50   Whatever they call it, I think it will be functionally

00:24:56   a 15.5 inch version of the M2 MacBook Air, right?

00:24:59   Like that's what it'll be, whatever they call it.

00:25:03   But MacBook Air is a nice name

00:25:04   and it allows them to say, "We have two sizes."

00:25:06   and that's really convenient rather than saying,

00:25:08   "We have another confusing product

00:25:10   "in the middle of these other two products

00:25:12   "that are already a little confusing."

00:25:14   And so why not keep it simple and say,

00:25:15   "We've got MacBook Air and MacBook Pro, MacBook Air."

00:25:18   They're all the same except for the size,

00:25:21   same specs, same options.

00:25:23   That's better, that's clearer than adding.

00:25:26   So I can see why people might say,

00:25:29   "Doesn't this add complexity?"

00:25:30   I would say it doesn't if they're basically the same

00:25:33   except for the size, you should name them the same thing.

00:25:36   - Young is also updating an existing report

00:25:38   to say that he now expects Apple to switch to OLED panels

00:25:42   for the MacBook Air and iPad Pros in 2024.

00:25:46   - Yeah.

00:25:47   - 2024 is probably the time we'd next expect an update

00:25:52   to the iPad Pro line anyway.

00:25:54   - Right, 18 months cycle.

00:25:56   So spring of '24 and then OLED MacBook Air in '24.

00:26:01   OLED MacBook Air is interesting, right?

00:26:05   Because what about the MacBook Pro?

00:26:07   - Well, it's already on Mini-LED.

00:26:08   They already took a step, right?

00:26:10   So I imagine they start to upgrade the displays

00:26:14   in all of the products,

00:26:16   and if one of them's already got a good one,

00:26:18   it's different, OLED's different,

00:26:20   it's better in some ways or whatever,

00:26:22   then you do the MacBook Air,

00:26:24   and then you come around to the MacBook Pro.

00:26:26   Because the MacBook Pro is going to be updated

00:26:31   between now and then,

00:26:33   And if that's on an 18-month cycle,

00:26:35   then that's also got a slot in.

00:26:37   Like, there was a -- it wasn't originally in the rumor roundup,

00:26:40   but I see a rumor over there,

00:26:41   and I'm throwing a lasso around it,

00:26:43   and I'm going to bring it in. -Okay. Bring it in.

00:26:45   -Which was that Mark Gurman was suggesting

00:26:46   that there would be new MacBook Pro models in early 2023

00:26:51   with new chips in it, most likely.

00:26:52   Probably not much of a difference.

00:26:54   But then, you know, then where's that --

00:26:57   the next one, if it was going to get OLED,

00:26:59   that's now got a slot back in, and, you know --

00:27:01   you see what I mean?

00:27:02   Like this is like where it's gonna hit.

00:27:04   - My only question is sort of the larger angle

00:27:06   about how Apple views what should be on displays, right?

00:27:09   Because the OLED, like on iPad Pros suggest

00:27:14   that they think that OLED is superior

00:27:17   to the mini LED they're using now.

00:27:19   And it is in some ways, right?

00:27:20   Because it doesn't have the little small,

00:27:24   they're small, but there are still illumination zones.

00:27:26   - Yeah, it's blooming.

00:27:27   - And every pixel is its own.

00:27:29   But there's also the rumor that they're working

00:27:30   on like a micro LED thing and all that.

00:27:32   I think it's funny 'cause OLED seems premium

00:27:34   and so if the MacBook Air ends up with a,

00:27:36   for a little while with a better screen

00:27:39   than the MacBook Pro, that's a little bit weird,

00:27:41   but Apple does that sometimes, things are out of sync.

00:27:44   - Look at the iPad 10th generation, you know what I mean?

00:27:48   - Yeah, no, I just wonder what their overall strategy is

00:27:51   for the MacBook Pro then in terms of what display,

00:27:54   is it like better OLED or is it micro LED

00:27:58   or is it something else?

00:27:59   'cause you will want to get the MacBook Pros

00:28:01   then to leapfrog the MacBook Air at some point.

00:28:04   - I think in the last couple of years,

00:28:06   they have stumbled with displays.

00:28:09   I think that they are working

00:28:12   on too many display technologies at once.

00:28:16   And it seems like Apple's unable to decide

00:28:19   which one is the best.

00:28:21   - I think they're in between technologies.

00:28:23   I agree.

00:28:24   I think OLED has issues and micro LED

00:28:26   has those blooming issues.

00:28:28   or mini LED, and they're going toward micro LED,

00:28:33   and I think they don't even know, right?

00:28:34   Like what's gonna be the best solution for them?

00:28:36   Or at least a year or two ago,

00:28:38   when they were starting to do this, go down this path,

00:28:40   they were unclear and maybe hedging.

00:28:42   Like is the best solution going to be very,

00:28:45   very small backlight on LED, or is it going to be OLED?

00:28:50   I don't know.

00:28:52   I don't know.

00:28:52   That is probably above my pay grade.

00:28:54   But it's interesting to see that that's where they're going.

00:28:57   and I think that that's a, you can see the iPad Pro product,

00:29:01   like when's the next iPad Pro?

00:29:03   It's like the answer is 18 months, right?

00:29:05   It's gonna be 18 months again,

00:29:06   which means it's spring of '24, so more than a year.

00:29:10   That makes sense.

00:29:11   I do have a, I'll just throw it out here as a wild idea.

00:29:16   I think the one thing that might happen

00:29:18   in the iPad line next year that might be interesting

00:29:21   is there were those rumors about a larger iPad Pro.

00:29:24   - Oh yeah.

00:29:25   - That's a product they could release

00:29:26   without updating the other iPad Pros.

00:29:28   - Yeah.

00:29:29   - So maybe there could be like a, you know,

00:29:32   mega 15 inch, whatever, iPad Pro or iPad Studio

00:29:35   or something that comes out next fall or something like that.

00:29:38   But I don't expect the existing iPad Pros

00:29:41   to get an update next year.

00:29:43   - Mark Gurman had a report about the Mac Pro,

00:29:46   which is a product that we haven't,

00:29:48   that we should have, we were expecting to hear--

00:29:49   - It's like the Loch Ness Monster.

00:29:51   - More about by now, right?

00:29:52   They gave a little wink to us at WWDC, I think it was.

00:29:56   - It's WDC.

00:29:57   - Yeah, we're almost done,

00:29:59   but the Mac Pro's still out there, wink.

00:30:01   - Wink, wink, wink.

00:30:03   But we haven't got it.

00:30:05   So then Mark Gurman is saying that Apple

00:30:07   still has the Mac Pro in development,

00:30:09   that they are still testing and adapting

00:30:11   and changing the product.

00:30:13   One of the big changes is it is now unlikely

00:30:15   to have a higher end chip than the Ultra.

00:30:18   So we've got M2 Ultra,

00:30:20   and then there was expected something

00:30:22   maybe like the M2 Extreme,

00:30:23   a bigger, badder, beefier processor than even what was in the M2 Ultra and stuff like that.

00:30:33   Mark is now suggesting that the Mac Pro will top out whatever the current biggest chip

00:30:38   is. So if it's the M2 Ultra, M3 Ultra or whatever, that's what it's going to get. They're not

00:30:43   going to create a chip just for this device, which I think is a good idea. I don't think

00:30:49   it makes sense to make a chip specifically for this device unless you really need it,

00:30:55   which they definitely don't.

00:30:56   Mark's report is really interesting because, and I think this is probably a conversation

00:31:02   that's happening inside Apple, which is, does the Mac Pro make sense at all?

00:31:08   Mm-hmm.

00:31:09   Right?

00:31:10   Like what he's saying is, okay, the Mac Studio with the Ultra is already five grand.

00:31:14   So now you're talking $10,000 for a Mac Pro.

00:31:17   And what do you get for that?

00:31:18   Well, you're not even getting the four times chip,

00:31:21   you're getting the ultra.

00:31:22   So it's Mac studio level performance essentially.

00:31:27   Okay, which is great, it's the fastest Mac ever, great.

00:31:30   And expandability, which is good and people need it.

00:31:35   But his point is also how many people really need it.

00:31:38   And this is, I know this has been the Mac Pro conversation

00:31:40   for a decade now, if not two decades,

00:31:42   which is, it is not ever gonna ship in volume.

00:31:48   it's just never gonna do it.

00:31:49   Especially, there was a time when the Pro Max

00:31:51   were like the go-to max for lots of power users,

00:31:54   but that time is long gone.

00:31:56   It's a very, very high-end computer.

00:31:59   And who, like justifying it based on the sales,

00:32:04   you're never gonna be able to do.

00:32:06   So it becomes much more of a statement,

00:32:08   which is we admit that we care,

00:32:11   like they did in that famous round table way back when,

00:32:14   We admit that we care about the highest end users,

00:32:19   so we're gonna make this product.

00:32:21   But I can see people on the inside at Apple

00:32:24   who look at it and go,

00:32:25   "Boy, we are spending a lot of engineering time

00:32:28   on this thing, on adding this expansion stuff

00:32:31   that has never been in the Mac before."

00:32:33   And maybe, or never been an Apple Silicon before.

00:32:37   And maybe it'll benefit the platform in other areas,

00:32:40   but it sure feels like a lot of the stuff

00:32:42   is just for this Mac Pro and nobody's gonna buy it.

00:32:44   It's gonna be like a few thousand people buy it or whatever

00:32:47   and it's not gonna be ever worth the amount of time

00:32:50   we put into it.

00:32:52   And now on top of that, it's not even gonna have

00:32:55   that extra chip benefit of being twice as fast

00:32:57   as the Mac Studio.

00:32:58   So the benefits are gonna be expansion.

00:33:02   And Germin did reinforce, I think something

00:33:04   that we all wondered about with Apple Silicon,

00:33:06   which is they expect it to be expandable.

00:33:10   And he specifically says, "Additional memory,

00:33:12   "storage, and other components."

00:33:14   So it'll be an Apple Silicon Mac you can add memory to,

00:33:18   and you can add storage to on the inside,

00:33:21   which storage isn't as much a thing as memory.

00:33:24   He doesn't say graphics, by the way,

00:33:26   but other components, probably like networking,

00:33:29   and maybe there'll be something like

00:33:30   the equivalent of an afterburner card in there

00:33:32   to boost performance.

00:33:34   I don't know.

00:33:35   I mean, I do wonder if that might be the reason

00:33:37   that they're not gonna do a 4X Ultra

00:33:41   is that maybe they'll have like a plugin card

00:33:44   that has another Ultra on it

00:33:47   that will be addressable in some way.

00:33:48   I don't know.

00:33:50   But I just found it fascinating

00:33:51   that I get through Mark Gurman's report

00:33:54   the sense that inside Apple,

00:33:56   there's an admission that this product

00:33:58   is more of an idealized product than a product

00:34:02   and they're putting money into it.

00:34:03   And it's like, but nobody's gonna buy it

00:34:06   because it's gonna be incredibly expensive.

00:34:08   And that's the story of the Mac Pro all along, it really is.

00:34:10   Like it's a product that I do think needs to exist

00:34:13   and there are definitely customers for it.

00:34:16   But I also understand that if you penciled it out

00:34:18   inside Apple, it doesn't make sense.

00:34:20   Whereas something like back in the day, that iMac Pro

00:34:23   and more currently the Mac Studio actually fits in better.

00:34:28   - The Mac Studio is continued and is I think taken

00:34:32   a huge bite out of the potential addressable market

00:34:36   for the Mac Pro.

00:34:37   And I think Apple knows this, right?

00:34:39   And it might be why they're doing a bit more work on it.

00:34:41   Like really trying to make, if they're going to do this,

00:34:43   make this statement machine that they're going to do it

00:34:46   for a reason and it's going to have a point to it.

00:34:48   And it's like, you know, Mark says in his piece that like,

00:34:51   probably going to start at 10 grand,

00:34:53   which I think makes sense now again, right?

00:34:55   Because like the studio sitting right there for you,

00:34:58   it's right there, you know?

00:35:00   Yeah, so you're paying for this larger thing.

00:35:03   And they're going down the road.

00:35:04   I mean, they kind of promised and they kind of need to do it

00:35:07   and maybe it will have benefits.

00:35:09   But it is fascinating 'cause I feel like we're getting

00:35:12   that Mac Pro, iMac Pro story all over again

00:35:15   with the Mac Studio and this Apple Silicon Mac Pro

00:35:18   where there's Apple behaving as Apple doing the math

00:35:23   and saying, well, here you go.

00:35:25   Here's an incredibly powerful computer

00:35:27   with no internal expansion, because we don't do that,

00:35:30   go to town, and that's the Mac studio.

00:35:32   And then there's Apple being the company that has,

00:35:36   you know, it's making a, it's a legacy computer platform,

00:35:39   and people who've been using computers a long time

00:35:41   really do demand tower computers with extra storage,

00:35:43   and et cetera, et cetera, right?

00:35:44   Like there's a whole story about it.

00:35:46   Listen to every episode of ATP for the last 10 years,

00:35:49   or whatever, however long they've been going,

00:35:51   since episode one, one to present,

00:35:53   to hear that whole story writ large.

00:35:55   but they do exist, but it's one of those things that like,

00:35:58   it's not, I think it's not logical.

00:36:00   It doesn't make business sense,

00:36:02   but it's almost like they have to do it

00:36:03   because they're the steward of the platform

00:36:05   and their platform needs to have it.

00:36:07   But all that conflict plays out in this report

00:36:12   from Mark Gurman.

00:36:13   It really is right there, which is like,

00:36:15   this product kind of doesn't make sense

00:36:16   and nobody's gonna buy it, but we're gonna do it.

00:36:19   And like, okay, I actually, my frustration will be

00:36:22   if they do it and don't ever update the Mac Studio again,

00:36:25   'cause I think the Mac Studio is for most,

00:36:28   even most high-end users a better choice

00:36:31   because most people don't need what a Mac Pro delivers.

00:36:34   But I think they've decided culturally

00:36:36   that they just gotta do it.

00:36:37   They gotta have that tower computer

00:36:39   at the top of the product line.

00:36:40   - No, I think the studio is gonna get a lot of love.

00:36:43   I mean, I imagine that like they'll do this Mac Pro,

00:36:46   however they do it,

00:36:47   and then they do very little to it ever again.

00:36:50   - Well, I think there's an argument

00:36:53   that once you've created one of these computers

00:36:55   based on Apple Silicon,

00:36:57   that there's not a lot more they need to do

00:37:00   for years and years and years, right?

00:37:02   So once they've got a Mac Studio and a Mac Pro,

00:37:04   you know, you update the chips, right?

00:37:07   Like you could ride on that for a long time.

00:37:09   And the beauty of it is, since they designed the chips,

00:37:12   they can probably keep, unlike previous Mac Pros,

00:37:15   they can probably keep doing revisions

00:37:17   that drop in a new Apple Silicon processor

00:37:20   every 18 months or two years.

00:37:23   - They can control its physical size,

00:37:25   they can control its capabilities and requirements,

00:37:27   like they have the ability to do all that.

00:37:29   - And they can keep an eye

00:37:30   when they're doing their chip design,

00:37:31   they can keep an eye on the Mac Pro and be like,

00:37:33   "We also needed to go in the Mac Pro."

00:37:35   And it's like, okay, we can, and the Mac Studio,

00:37:37   it's like, we can do that.

00:37:39   So it might be a better situation,

00:37:40   but I do think you're right that like,

00:37:43   there is, I think the counterargument

00:37:44   that like we have to do this is,

00:37:46   look, we only have to do this once.

00:37:48   And then we just keep it out there.

00:37:50   - Yeah, I mentioned presentation a couple of months

00:37:52   and John Ternus is on stage and he's like,

00:37:53   "Here's the new Mac Mini.

00:37:55   Wait, what did you think I was talking about?"

00:37:57   - Yeah. - You know?

00:37:58   When I said I had one left, it was this Mac Mini.

00:38:01   - It's the Mac Mini. - We've done the Mac Mini now.

00:38:03   - Done, job's done. - He said it by name though.

00:38:06   So I do-- - Did he?

00:38:08   - Remember the, yeah, they said,

00:38:10   we still got the Mac Pro, but more about that later.

00:38:12   It was something like that.

00:38:13   They actually did say that.

00:38:14   But here's the other thing I wonder sometimes

00:38:17   is Mark Gurman has had that, you know,

00:38:19   the new Mac Pro is gonna be a tall Mac Mini rumor

00:38:22   and also there was the new Mac Pro

00:38:23   is gonna be a short Mac Pro rumor.

00:38:25   And it turns out that he was talking about the Mac Studio

00:38:27   and the Mac Pro.

00:38:28   There is part of me that wonders though, even now,

00:38:32   if the Mac Studio was like,

00:38:34   people were like trying to slide that in there

00:38:35   and say, "No, this is the Mac Pro."

00:38:37   And then they're like, "No, we're still gonna do the Mac Pro,

00:38:40   but we also did the Mac Studio."

00:38:42   I don't know, I can't wait to see how this plays out

00:38:43   and what the details are.

00:38:45   But I think that Gurman is making a point that is real

00:38:49   and that people inside Apple have to know,

00:38:51   which is just like the Mac Pro is an awesome top

00:38:56   of the line thing to mark the prowess

00:39:00   of the Mac platform or whatever.

00:39:02   But it's hard to imagine a scenario

00:39:06   where it actually pencils out in terms

00:39:08   of how much effort they put into it,

00:39:11   what they'll get out in sales.

00:39:13   The only way you can make sense of it is to say,

00:39:15   you need to do it because otherwise certain classes

00:39:18   of user and company will abandon the platform if you don't offer it. And they're mostly

00:39:24   not buying it, they're buying other things, but they're also buying that. And if you don't

00:39:28   offer it, then they're not going to buy any of our other things as well. And that's probably

00:39:32   the strongest argument I can make here. And the second strongest argument is, "Look, the

00:39:36   stuff we are doing for the Mac Pro is going to benefit the whole Mac line, or at least

00:39:39   the high-end Mac line, we'll work it out." Canceling that four processor variant, though,

00:39:46   That is a sign of them saying, "Mm, that's a lot of effort."

00:39:50   - We don't need to get that specific.

00:39:52   - And that, can you imagine that that requires

00:39:55   all four of those chips on the, like,

00:39:58   together to be without flaw?

00:40:01   And like, that's gotta cost a fortune, right?

00:40:03   Like, that configuration would cost a fortune.

00:40:07   So I can see why they'd throw it away and be like,

00:40:09   "No, it's not worth it, we're not gonna do it."

00:40:12   - Dylan Byers of Puck News reports

00:40:14   that Apple has exited discussions for NFL Sunday Ticket.

00:40:18   Quote, "I'm now told that Apple,

00:40:21   once seen as a front runner for the rights,

00:40:23   has also backed out of those negotiations,

00:40:26   not because they can't afford it,

00:40:27   but because they don't see the logic.

00:40:29   So it's down to Amazon and Google,

00:40:31   and there's certainly a logic there for both companies.

00:40:34   Amazon can use it to drive Prime subscriptions.

00:40:36   Google can use it to fuel its YouTube TV business."

00:40:40   I want to ask you, Jason,

00:40:42   I mean, I struggle with this one a little bit

00:40:44   because I mean, there is, of course there's a logic to,

00:40:48   I mean, isn't the logic to Apple

00:40:50   the same as it is to Amazon and Google?

00:40:51   Like looking at this example from buyers?

00:40:55   - I don't, yeah, I don't agree with his statement

00:40:58   about the logic because I think that Amazon's

00:40:59   using the same logic as Apple.

00:41:01   Now there is, in the context here, I think, I think--

00:41:04   - I think I see the point, but not with those examples.

00:41:07   - There was also a, well, yes, exactly.

00:41:09   So there was also a report

00:41:11   that what Apple was really pitching,

00:41:13   there was a report that Apple was pitching

00:41:14   that it would be free for people who are TV+ subscribers,

00:41:17   which also doesn't make any sense

00:41:19   given what they're doing with MLS.

00:41:20   This was never gonna be free for TV+ subscribers.

00:41:23   This was gonna be an add-on,

00:41:25   just like the MLS thing is an add-on.

00:41:28   - Neither would it be like worldwide.

00:41:30   And I kind of imagine they probably wanted

00:41:34   a similar arrangement to what they have

00:41:36   with Major League Soccer in its availability,

00:41:40   its simplicity and the NFL was not willing to give that.

00:41:43   - None of that was gonna happen.

00:41:44   And this is what I think is the bottom line here

00:41:47   is that the NFL, again, for international listeners,

00:41:51   trust me, the NFL is the most successful

00:41:54   entertainment operation in America.

00:41:56   I mean, the highest rated TV show in America

00:42:00   for the last decade plus has been a football game.

00:42:03   They're huge.

00:42:04   They have all the power.

00:42:06   This is the weirdest and worst of their rights packages

00:42:11   because it is a product that was built for a different era

00:42:16   but still exists.

00:42:17   And the carve-outs and the contracts are all dating

00:42:21   from that previous era.

00:42:22   And Apple very clearly based on the reports

00:42:24   that we've gotten has been trying to push the NFL

00:42:27   to change the product.

00:42:28   The NFL doesn't wanna change the product.

00:42:31   And I think it can't change the product

00:42:33   because this is the last rights deal in this cycle

00:42:36   to be signed, which means that maybe over the next five

00:42:40   years Apple could work with the NFL to come up with

00:42:43   a strategy for a product that would replace Sunday ticket

00:42:46   that would be more amenable to them.

00:42:48   But if you're the NFL, if you're gonna go through

00:42:51   all that effort, maybe you keep that money for yourself

00:42:52   and don't even have a partner for it in five years.

00:42:55   So the NFL really just wants somebody to pony up

00:42:59   more money than it's worth in order to, you know,

00:43:02   for ulterior motive reasons to get this product

00:43:06   that was really kind of built for DirecTV.

00:43:09   And it's US only, and it's got all these limitations

00:43:13   of like not your local markets,

00:43:15   you need another product for that.

00:43:16   There's all of this stuff to it.

00:43:18   So I would argue it never made sense

00:43:22   purely from an Apple strategy perspective.

00:43:24   The only reason you do it is you've got all the money

00:43:28   and it gets you in the door with the NFL

00:43:30   and you're interested in sports as a way

00:43:32   to drive people into your platform.

00:43:34   So on that level, I think engaging with the NFL makes sense.

00:43:39   I think where maybe the breakdown in communication was

00:43:43   is I think Apple, I've said this on this podcast

00:43:47   and other podcasts before, Apple and the NFL

00:43:49   are both used to getting what they want.

00:43:52   And I think Apple was really motivated

00:43:53   to kind of like push the NFL and say, look, we're Apple.

00:43:56   Listen to us, we need to change what this product is.

00:43:59   And the NFL is like, no, you don't understand.

00:44:00   this is the product, you can bid for it, and that's it.

00:44:05   And they're like, well, no, we want the local.

00:44:07   And they're like, you can't have the local Fox and CBS

00:44:10   at the local games in market, you can't have them.

00:44:12   Apple's like, well, can we have them?

00:44:15   And they're like, no, you cannot.

00:44:17   How about international?

00:44:18   No, we have a product for that, you can't have that either.

00:44:20   So I think that this was one of those cases where it's like,

00:44:24   if you're Apple, you need to talk to the NFL about this,

00:44:26   but walking away totally makes sense.

00:44:29   From Amazon and Google's perspective,

00:44:31   I think I would make the same argument for Amazon

00:44:33   except for one difference,

00:44:34   which is Amazon already has an NFL game.

00:44:38   So they're already in business with the NFL

00:44:40   and this therefore would kind of accumulate to that.

00:44:43   It would probably be an Amazon channel.

00:44:46   Again, he says, drive Prime subscriptions.

00:44:49   I have a hard time seeing even Amazon eating

00:44:51   the billions of dollars that this thing will cost

00:44:54   and just using it as a value add for Prime

00:44:56   versus being a Prime channel

00:44:58   that you have to pay extra for.

00:45:00   But maybe, or maybe they would put Red Zone,

00:45:03   which is a summary channel

00:45:06   that you get with NFL Sunday Ticket.

00:45:08   Maybe they'd put that in prime,

00:45:10   but then you'd have to pay for Sunday Ticket.

00:45:11   I don't know those details,

00:45:13   but the Google thing is really interesting though,

00:45:16   'cause Google has YouTube TV,

00:45:18   which is what's called a VM-PVD.

00:45:20   It's a cable package.

00:45:22   (laughing)

00:45:23   Sorry, I had to learn it.

00:45:25   Julia Alexander made me learn it.

00:45:27   It's a ridiculous term.

00:45:28   - What does it mean?

00:45:29   - VMPVD, I don't know what it stands for.

00:45:31   Virtual-

00:45:33   - Premium video distribution?

00:45:35   - Yeah, it's basically a cable package that comes in an app.

00:45:38   So like I've got Fubo, Hulu,

00:45:41   Plus Live TV, YouTube TV, Sling,

00:45:45   are all of these things that are basically,

00:45:47   you get a cable bundle,

00:45:48   except it just comes via streaming.

00:45:50   - Virtual multi-channel video programming distributor.

00:45:56   There you go, VM-PVD.

00:45:58   Learn it, love it, learn to embrace it, embrace the VM-PVD.

00:46:01   - I learned these from downstream, SVOD I learn, FAST,

00:46:06   FAST is the new one I learn.

00:46:07   - Fast, Free Ad-supported Television.

00:46:09   - Yeah, FAST TV.

00:46:11   - Oh, you got to have a program

00:46:12   to keep up with all of these things.

00:46:13   So, YouTube TV is one of those.

00:46:16   You pay YouTube or Google or whatever,

00:46:19   65 or $70 a month, and you get all the channels

00:46:22   you would get with cable basically, except they're streaming.

00:46:25   So it's like you've got cable again, yay.

00:46:28   Except you can cancel it whenever you want

00:46:30   and your internet doesn't go down.

00:46:31   So Google's got that business.

00:46:34   That's interesting in the sense

00:46:36   that it's already a live TV business.

00:46:38   It means you've already got your local channels.

00:46:40   So for Google, it would potentially be like

00:46:43   you also get this and it works well with YouTube TV.

00:46:47   So they can take Sunday Ticket and say,

00:46:48   you can buy Sunday Ticket,

00:46:50   but you're not gonna get your locals.

00:46:51   But if you also get YouTube TV

00:46:53   and we've got a package for you,

00:46:55   then you'll get your locals and you'll get Sunday ticket

00:46:57   and you'll have everything plus other TV shows and stuff.

00:47:00   I kind of can see that as a better fit.

00:47:03   The truth is the NFL is gonna make a lot of money here,

00:47:08   what else is new,

00:47:10   but they're not gonna make as much money

00:47:13   as they would have if they had made it a sweeter package.

00:47:16   I think though that they don't want

00:47:18   to make it a sweeter package.

00:47:20   They know that they're gonna get a lot of value

00:47:21   and that somebody is gonna pay over essentially

00:47:24   what it's worth to get it in order to drive people

00:47:26   into their ecosystem.

00:47:27   And if that wasn't the case,

00:47:29   they would just roll it into their own streaming service.

00:47:32   'Cause eliminating the middleman

00:47:34   is a thing the NFL could do.

00:47:36   They could be like Disney and say,

00:47:37   "We're going direct to consumer."

00:47:38   In fact, they already have a thing called NFL Plus,

00:47:41   that doesn't have the out-of-market games,

00:47:45   but they do have that.

00:47:46   Which means technically, I guess,

00:47:48   if you got Sunday Ticket and NFL Plus,

00:47:50   you could probably see everything.

00:47:51   So it's a way for the NFL to extract more money

00:47:56   from the middleman who values it

00:48:00   for things beyond what it is.

00:48:03   Great.

00:48:04   So somebody will do it,

00:48:05   and it's still gonna be the frustrating product that it was,

00:48:08   but maybe there'll be some tech innovation.

00:48:10   I think Apple is probably wise to walk away.

00:48:14   Although it's good to be in business with the NFL,

00:48:17   I think that product is kind of broken.

00:48:19   I would say Amazon, again, not for Prime, but because of its synergy with its Thursday

00:48:25   Night Football, that it's already in business with the NFL.

00:48:27   And I think Google is a great match here.

00:48:31   I think Google is a great match because of that VMPVD service that it has.

00:48:37   I would say that other VMPVD services should probably also bid for this.

00:48:41   I think it's kind of funny that Disney has dropped out of the bidding for this, not for

00:48:46   ESPN+ but for Hulu plus live TV. And something like Fubo that's a sports-based or sports-focused

00:48:53   VM-PVD, they don't have the money to do it, right? But that would be a perfect thing for

00:48:59   Fubo to do because it would be them doing the DirecTV thing, saying, "We're going to

00:49:03   pay a huge amount of money in order to get people to subscribe to our thing in order

00:49:07   to get an NFL Sunday ticket." But in the end, this is going to be actually a little disappointing,

00:49:13   I think, whoever gets it,

00:49:15   'cause it's not gonna be a great fit,

00:49:17   but it'll be like, okay.

00:49:19   And the NFL is gonna get a lot of money,

00:49:21   but maybe not as much money as they hoped.

00:49:24   Still, a couple billion is nothing to sneeze at.

00:49:27   And what I would predict in the future is that

00:49:31   I think the NFL's engagement with Apple

00:49:35   has taught the NFL a little bit about what this product,

00:49:38   how the products need to change in the future,

00:49:40   how their licensing deals with all the TV companies

00:49:45   will need to adapt a little bit

00:49:48   'cause this product isn't actually a good fit

00:49:50   for the market of today.

00:49:52   We'll see.

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00:52:01   So, I see on the horizon Mark Gurman.

00:52:07   Oh no, it's him again.

00:52:10   He's escaped the rumor roundup.

00:52:11   Oh yeah, by the way, I'm regretting so much not having more football references in that

00:52:17   NFL segment.

00:52:18   I did not prepare right to…

00:52:19   I mean, there would have been lost on me, man.

00:52:22   Immaculate reception or are you ready for some football?

00:52:26   I mean, that's not a reference really.

00:52:28   That's just you telling me like, "Are you ready for some football?"

00:52:32   And you're like, "I know what that one means."

00:52:34   Mark Goerman at Bloomberg has reported that Apple is working on a series of initiatives

00:52:39   to comply with potential antitrust law in Europe, which will result in, among other things,

00:52:45   third-party app stores being on iOS.

00:52:49   The Digital Markets Act is the thing that we're talking about.

00:52:54   It's an incredibly complex piece of legislation that includes a bunch of stuff.

00:52:58   - Yep. - Kind of--

00:53:00   - Lump of coal, lumps of coal.

00:53:01   - Lumps of coal, it could start having an impact

00:53:04   potentially in 2024, but then there's also

00:53:06   the member states ratifying it

00:53:08   and the complications of all of that.

00:53:10   I, shorthand, have been thinking of the Digital Markets Act

00:53:15   as kinda like GDPR, and just bear with me here,

00:53:18   and you don't need to correct me, all right?

00:53:20   What I'm saying is, GDPR is a big, sweeping set of rules,

00:53:25   right, that exists, so, you know, for data privacy.

00:53:29   But it's really hard to necessarily know, as a company,

00:53:34   how well you're doing at implementing

00:53:38   any of these exact things,

00:53:39   'cause there's not a lot of case law yet,

00:53:41   so there's still a lot of interpretation

00:53:44   around some of the law,

00:53:45   and I have viewed the digital markets act

00:53:47   as a similar thing,

00:53:48   that the European Union is going to request

00:53:50   a bunch of things.

00:53:51   Because of that, a bunch of companies need to do things

00:53:54   the way that they think is right

00:53:56   and hope that they cross their fingers and do it.

00:53:59   That's kind of how I look at the Digital Markets Act.

00:54:02   - Yeah, you know how people say,

00:54:03   I-A-N-A-L, I am not a lawyer.

00:54:05   I just want to say, I-A-N-A-E-L-E,

00:54:08   I am not a European legislation expert.

00:54:10   - Same, same.

00:54:11   - So it's complicated,

00:54:16   but I think Apple has lawyers.

00:54:21   - Yep.

00:54:22   - Apple has European legislation experts.

00:54:24   - Yep.

00:54:25   - And according to Mark Gurman's report,

00:54:27   they have all looked at this and realized that

00:54:30   if it's going to be required,

00:54:33   that they have to open up iOS to third party apps

00:54:36   or app stores, and it's gonna really come down in 2024,

00:54:41   that means it's in the iOS 17 cycle,

00:54:43   which they're starting to work on and plan for now.

00:54:46   I know it seems like it's a long ways away,

00:54:49   but like WWDC is in June,

00:54:51   they have something to show you in June.

00:54:53   yes, they work on it over the summer,

00:54:54   but there's like a beta that comes out in June

00:54:56   with the pieces of what is in iOS 17,

00:55:00   which means the first half of the year,

00:55:02   they're putting together iOS 17,

00:55:04   if they're not already working on it

00:55:05   the previous year right now, right?

00:55:07   And so according to Mark Gurman's report,

00:55:10   the lawyers and the experts at Apple

00:55:14   have said to the software and software team,

00:55:17   basically, if it's gonna take,

00:55:20   if you need to start now in order to comply

00:55:23   with opening this up in 2024, then start now, right?

00:55:28   They have been given the, the red light has come on

00:55:32   and it's like, yes.

00:55:35   And Mark Gurman's report says they're grumbling about it.

00:55:40   And I totally get it, right?

00:55:41   It's like engineers who are usually excited

00:55:44   to be working on great new features of iOS 17

00:55:47   are instead working on compliance features

00:55:50   in order to open up APIs and open the App Store.

00:55:53   And I totally get it from an engineer perspective.

00:55:55   Like I wanna build a new thing.

00:55:56   And they're like, no, you need to work on this thing

00:55:59   about sideloading instead,

00:56:00   because we may have to turn it on.

00:56:02   And I'm sure that within Apple, they're like, maybe not.

00:56:05   We'll watch it.

00:56:06   Maybe this work won't be something we actually have to do,

00:56:11   but I think they have to,

00:56:13   they've been told by their experts, you better be ready,

00:56:17   because the downside is an enormous fine from the EU

00:56:22   that we will not pay.

00:56:24   So you gotta be ready for the eventuality

00:56:27   that we're going to have to open up a bunch of our APIs

00:56:30   and access to our platform

00:56:32   to outside app developers and stores.

00:56:34   - Yeah, so like going back to us saying

00:56:35   about like the interpretation thing or whatever,

00:56:38   like Mark's report focuses on a few different areas.

00:56:41   There's app stores, which we're gonna talk about.

00:56:44   there's APIs and there's also messaging.

00:56:47   And it seems like Apple is not doing the messaging portion

00:56:53   that they are going to seem to abstain

00:56:56   from changing anything to iMessage

00:56:57   to make it interoperable.

00:56:59   I just find that interesting, right?

00:57:00   'Cause that's where this Digital Markets Act

00:57:03   seems to be focusing on these areas.

00:57:05   But it seems like Apple is just like,

00:57:07   no, we're not doing that part.

00:57:09   - And I wonder if that is based on their analysis

00:57:11   of the legal use of this.

00:57:13   'Cause none of these things are things Apple want to do.

00:57:16   It's not like any one of these three

00:57:18   is better than the other.

00:57:20   - Sure, but combine that with the fact

00:57:21   that it's also technically impossible.

00:57:22   It's like- - Yeah, I know.

00:57:24   - Interoperation of different encrypted messaging systems

00:57:27   is technically impossible

00:57:28   because of the way the encryption works.

00:57:30   So yes, obviously they seem to think that's defensible,

00:57:35   but that this part of it is not defensible,

00:57:37   or at least not likely to be defended

00:57:39   and requires an overhaul at such a level

00:57:42   that they have to start working on it now.

00:57:45   - Yep.

00:57:46   So the biggest change here is the ability,

00:57:51   potentially, for apps outside of the App Store

00:57:56   to find their way onto your iPhone.

00:58:00   We have potentially two ways of doing this.

00:58:03   There would be sideloading,

00:58:05   where you could just, like on a Mac, right?

00:58:07   You download an app from the web.

00:58:09   Actually, just use the Mac, right?

00:58:10   We'll just talk about the Mac.

00:58:11   On the Mac, you can download software from the web and you can install it.

00:58:14   And you can download apps from the App Store and you can just use them.

00:58:19   Right. So this would be what we'd be looking at.

00:58:22   And also app stores from other companies, which also works on the Mac.

00:58:26   You can download the Steam store.

00:58:28   Right. You can download games and you can run them.

00:58:30   So this potentially would be looking at bringing in all of these ways of being able to run apps.

00:58:39   Right.

00:58:39   Right.

00:58:40   And I think the question there, and I wrote a big,

00:58:43   I wrote, I sat down and wrote 3,000 words about this

00:58:45   at six dollars.

00:58:46   I think the three scenarios here are,

00:58:52   Apple just opens up sideloading.

00:58:54   You know, the ability, and we say sideloading,

00:58:56   but like every iOS device has a browser

00:58:59   with a downloads feature, right?

00:59:01   Like, and a file manager.

00:59:02   So sideloading isn't like plugging in via USB

00:59:04   and move a file over.

00:59:05   Sideloading is download a file and install it, right?

00:59:08   That's what it is.

00:59:10   There is, I guess my question is,

00:59:13   well, okay, let me boil it down to two,

00:59:17   which is, is it just as simple as there's a switch

00:59:19   like there is on Android for sideloading

00:59:21   and then it's like, good luck?

00:59:22   Or do they feel like this legislation will require them

00:59:26   to like put other app stores in the app store?

00:59:31   My guess is that that doesn't make sense.

00:59:36   My feeling is like, it's one thing to say

00:59:39   you have to open the platform,

00:59:40   but the platform is the operating system

00:59:42   and not the app store.

00:59:43   And I don't think the European legislation

00:59:46   is basically saying you must put anything

00:59:48   in the app store, right?

00:59:49   So I think the most likely scenario is

00:59:53   they will have a sideloading switch

00:59:55   if they're required to.

00:59:58   And it'll be like the one on Android.

00:59:59   And we covered this in an episode a few months ago

01:00:03   called this app may kill you.

01:00:07   - Which is a direct reference. - We're talking about

01:00:08   the Netherlands dating thing, right?

01:00:11   - Yeah, this app may kill you is a reference

01:00:16   to the scary warnings that will come up, right?

01:00:18   And so that was the idea is,

01:00:20   and Google does this with Android too.

01:00:22   You turn on, you know, allow untrusted apps

01:00:26   and the switch has a label bloat that says,

01:00:28   "This is dangerous, these apps may kill you."

01:00:30   And then you flip the switch and it brings up a thing

01:00:32   that says, "Watch out, these apps may kill you."

01:00:34   and you say, okay, and then it's enabled.

01:00:37   And then you download an app and you try to launch it.

01:00:39   And it says, this app may kill you.

01:00:42   And then you say, okay.

01:00:43   And then you're running a third-party app store.

01:00:45   And then at that point you can just download apps.

01:00:47   That's probably, and separately,

01:00:50   you could also just go to somebody's website

01:00:52   and download their app and install it, right?

01:00:53   It doesn't, I don't think the idea here is that

01:00:58   the EU is trying to create alternate gatekeepers

01:01:01   for software, right?

01:01:03   where it's like, well, you have to go through an app store,

01:01:05   but it could be other app stores.

01:01:07   I think that they also implied in this, at least to me,

01:01:10   is the idea that it's really anything.

01:01:12   You can install a third-party app store

01:01:13   with third-party apps,

01:01:14   or you could just install a third-party app

01:01:16   if you wanted to.

01:01:17   - Yeah, it just seems like they are trying to apply

01:01:20   the PC model to phones, right?

01:01:25   Like, you can just download software for it,

01:01:30   and you can run that software.

01:01:32   that's what they're trying to, you know,

01:01:34   so like that if you wanna put software on a device,

01:01:37   there's not just one place that you can get it from

01:01:39   that has all of the control of all of the money

01:01:42   and all of the business and everything.

01:01:44   - Yep. - Now this is in Europe.

01:01:49   Do you think that this would remain in Europe?

01:01:54   I guess imagine, WWDC rolls around and Apple's like,

01:01:57   "Hey, iOS 17, we're creating a new way

01:02:01   if you decide load applications only if you're in Europe.

01:02:05   - First off, I don't think they'll do that.

01:02:06   I think if we're talking rollout scenarios here,

01:02:09   this is iOS 17.2, comes out end of 2023 or early 2024,

01:02:14   right at the moment where this legislation

01:02:16   is gonna kick in for them.

01:02:18   - Yep.

01:02:19   - And it will not be trumpeted, right?

01:02:23   It'll just be there.

01:02:24   - Yep.

01:02:25   - In terms of the regional thing, it's possible.

01:02:29   I'm skeptical, not that Apple might not try it,

01:02:32   but that if I start to think about,

01:02:34   first off, I think if they put a switch in there for regions

01:02:38   it's gonna be really easy.

01:02:39   It's absolutely gonna be really easy to subvert that.

01:02:42   I feel like there'll be a workaround to say,

01:02:46   oh, pretend you're in Europe and then turn this feature on

01:02:49   and then leave Europe and you keep the feature on.

01:02:54   And I don't think Apple's gonna make it

01:02:55   that when European travelers go to America,

01:02:57   all their third-party apps stop working.

01:02:59   I just don't think that they're gonna do that sort of thing.

01:03:00   - I expect that they would do it like how they do now,

01:03:04   which is it's by your billing address.

01:03:07   So like I can't change my iPhone to be an American,

01:03:11   like to think that I'm in America, like I'm American,

01:03:14   and get like apps that are only available in America

01:03:18   like that, because this is a thing I can't do.

01:03:21   - Here's the problem though, is my understanding is

01:03:23   that this rule affects anybody in the EU,

01:03:25   not just people who have EU billing addresses, right?

01:03:29   If I'm in the EU, I think I have the right to do it.

01:03:31   Again, I-A-N-A-E-L-E.

01:03:35   I just, I think the most expedient solution here

01:03:38   is that Apple will just turn it on everywhere

01:03:39   because Apple does not want to have

01:03:41   an incredibly fractured operating system

01:03:44   with a lot of different features in different places

01:03:46   and different apps doing different things

01:03:49   in different places.

01:03:49   And people will find workarounds anywhere.

01:03:52   - They have to understand.

01:03:54   This is, well one, it's the bed they've made for themselves

01:03:58   and now they've got to make that bed

01:04:00   because once Europe do this, it is just a matter of time

01:04:05   until it happens everywhere else.

01:04:08   So just take it that far.

01:04:10   - Just to be clear, they've already made the bed,

01:04:11   now they have to lie in the bed.

01:04:12   That's I think how that works.

01:04:14   - Well, they've lie in the bed

01:04:15   and have to get back up again and make the bed again.

01:04:17   That's where I am.

01:04:20   'Cause I'm just like, they do the whole thing.

01:04:22   They've done it, all right, we've implemented it.

01:04:24   What do you think that no one else

01:04:26   is gonna make you do it at that point?

01:04:28   - Yeah, right.

01:04:29   - Just do it, just get out ahead of it.

01:04:31   - Yeah, so my, I know there are counter arguments here.

01:04:34   I had to, if I had to pick one,

01:04:36   I'd say they're just gonna turn it on

01:04:38   because I have a hard time imagining

01:04:40   that they're going to have that completely fractured thing

01:04:44   and then have to navigate like how is it on

01:04:46   and when is it off?

01:04:47   And they have to build that into the different,

01:04:49   like are there gonna be different builds of the software

01:04:51   Is it going to be a hidden feature?

01:04:52   And if it's a hidden feature,

01:04:53   people are going to turn it on anyway.

01:04:55   And I feel like they're going to,

01:04:58   they're an international,

01:04:59   they are the most global of companies.

01:05:01   They are going to just need to deal with it.

01:05:03   And so I think the most likely scenario

01:05:05   is they'll turn it on.

01:05:07   I will point out,

01:05:07   there is a scenario where they only do it in Europe,

01:05:10   and it's almost like a gamble that they could be like,

01:05:14   "Well, let's see what happens in Europe."

01:05:15   And if it's a disaster in some way,

01:05:18   they'll be like, "Ha ha, see?

01:05:20   This is why we didn't do it anywhere else. And if it's fine, it completely undercuts

01:05:23   their argument that sideloading is gonna destroy the platform. The problem I have is that I

01:05:28   don't actually believe that they believe that sideloading is gonna destroy the platform.

01:05:32   I think they know that when they do this in the EU, it's gonna be fine. And then what's

01:05:37   their argument? So again, I think that they're probably inclined to just turn it on everywhere.

01:05:43   And that lowers, as you point out, lowers the pressure on them in like the US for this.

01:05:48   Do you imagine this working like the Mac notarization,

01:05:51   like that kind of thing?

01:05:52   Like the Apple will still require something?

01:05:56   - Yeah, I don't know if Apple internally really thought

01:05:59   that what they were doing with the Mac was a test case

01:06:02   for what if they had to do this on iOS,

01:06:03   but it absolutely was, right?

01:06:05   Like it absolutely was.

01:06:07   They have a whole system and philosophy built

01:06:11   and Mark Gurman references this in his story.

01:06:15   They have, you know, already are talking about

01:06:19   like a scanning feature, he says, for apps

01:06:22   that would scan them for malware and be signed.

01:06:24   And it's like, oh, that's notarization

01:06:26   is what they're talking about.

01:06:27   And so I think, you know, there may be little differences,

01:06:32   again, I-A-N-A-E-L-E, but there may be differences

01:06:36   that are mandated in the regulation.

01:06:38   But my guess is it'll work just like it does on the Mac,

01:06:41   that there'll be a default,

01:06:42   and the default will be only use the App Store, basically.

01:06:45   And then there'll be a switch with these apps may kill you

01:06:49   that will flip you into essentially

01:06:53   third-party app downloadable mode.

01:06:55   And then those apps may come into forms, right?

01:06:58   And again, this is where I don't know

01:07:00   what the letter of the law is,

01:07:02   'cause I'm not sure that the law will allow Apple

01:07:07   to require that Apple approve and sign everything, right?

01:07:10   Like that's sort of the point

01:07:11   is that Apple shouldn't have that power.

01:07:13   So I think it's more likely that Apple will do

01:07:16   what they do on the Mac, which is they will say,

01:07:18   you're a developer, you pay a developer fee,

01:07:21   you sign your app, you upload it to the service,

01:07:23   that we notarize it, we sign the notarization certificate,

01:07:27   we send that back to you,

01:07:28   you release your app for download wherever.

01:07:31   This is what happens on the Mac today.

01:07:33   And at our second level of security,

01:07:36   what happens is you open that app

01:07:40   and it checks to make sure that it isn't like basically

01:07:43   malware and it checks that the signing certificate is valid.

01:07:47   And then it warns you that this app might kill you

01:07:50   and you say, okay on that screen and then it opens.

01:07:53   And then there's the third level, which people on the Mac,

01:07:57   you know, a lot of people may not know about,

01:07:58   but there's also, you can still do unsigned,

01:08:00   unnotarized apps.

01:08:02   But when you try to open those up,

01:08:05   it doesn't say this app may kill you, okay to continue.

01:08:09   It says, "This app may kill you, cancel or move to trash."

01:08:13   And there's no option to open it.

01:08:15   And you have to do like a special thing

01:08:17   to force that app open.

01:08:19   That is like extra, "No, really, it may kill you,"

01:08:23   kind of level of, it's the double level of security

01:08:25   to get it open the first time, but you can get there.

01:08:28   And that may be where iOS goes.

01:08:31   And, you know, it depends on what the letter of the law is,

01:08:35   but I'm sure that Apple will try

01:08:38   to have that other level, which is,

01:08:40   we will grease the skids for you

01:08:42   if you sign your app so we know it's from you.

01:08:46   And that also helps against malware

01:08:48   because if somebody takes a signed app

01:08:52   that's on the internet and then rewrites it

01:08:54   and tries to pass it off as the original,

01:08:56   the signature won't match

01:08:58   and you'll know that it's been tampered with.

01:09:00   So it's got a real purpose in doing this.

01:09:03   And then Apple does some scanning

01:09:04   and it also gives Apple the ability

01:09:06   to flip the kill switch if it's malware.

01:09:08   And again, they haven't abused that on the Mac.

01:09:11   I don't think they would abuse that on iOS.

01:09:12   They know that they would get in trouble

01:09:13   if they're just killing competitors, right?

01:09:15   But it is good for malware.

01:09:18   - Yeah, they have in fact used these tools

01:09:21   for great effect, right?

01:09:22   There have been some apps that have gotten malware

01:09:25   inserted into them and Apple's been able to step in.

01:09:28   - And there's a malware scanner on the Mac

01:09:30   that loads things in the background

01:09:31   and can kill those apps on the fly,

01:09:34   even if they got through the signature and scanning process.

01:09:37   And I'd imagine that would happen on iOS too.

01:09:39   So, yeah, honestly, the Mac approach here

01:09:42   really does solve most of these issues.

01:09:44   It doesn't mean that there can't be malware and piracy

01:09:46   and all sorts of other things,

01:09:48   but what it does mean is,

01:09:49   and the Mac has those things too,

01:09:52   but they're not very common

01:09:54   because Apple has been so proactive in building this.

01:09:57   And also this gets to the truth of this,

01:09:59   which is most people won't ever turn on that switch, right?

01:10:03   most people are gonna stay in the app store.

01:10:05   That's the truth of it.

01:10:06   - Of course they will.

01:10:07   - And so, yeah, so it's not gonna,

01:10:09   it will, will it change iOS forever?

01:10:10   Yeah, on one level, but on another level

01:10:12   for most people it won't change at all

01:10:14   because I think most people are not gonna,

01:10:16   are not gonna do it.

01:10:17   The biggest risk is that you're gonna get

01:10:18   scamware and malware,

01:10:20   people who are gonna set up websites

01:10:22   where they walk you through how,

01:10:24   or they're on the phone talking you through

01:10:26   how to disable all of the protections

01:10:29   and that some gullible people will do that.

01:10:31   That happens on the Mac today too.

01:10:33   That will happen, but it doesn't matter

01:10:38   'cause the upside is that the EU says

01:10:42   people should have the freedom to install software

01:10:44   on the devices they own.

01:10:46   - Listeners of this show know that we covered

01:10:50   the Netherlands third-party payment debacle

01:10:54   quite extensively, kind of going through the way

01:10:59   that Apple was trying to craft legislation

01:11:02   that the Netherlands would accept for third-party payments.

01:11:06   One of the things that I really took away from that

01:11:09   is Apple wants its money, right?

01:11:13   Because, you know, and I think it was in the Netherlands,

01:11:16   and I think they did it in one other place, too,

01:11:21   where they required, like, an audit of your transactions,

01:11:24   and they wanted 28% of those transactions

01:11:27   or whatever the number was.

01:11:28   So if you use the third-party payment provider, that's fine,

01:11:31   but we still want a cut.

01:11:34   Ryan in the Discord saying South Korea,

01:11:35   which seems right to my memory.

01:11:38   - That's the other one, yeah.

01:11:39   - So they wanted you to go through,

01:11:41   create an audit of all of your transactions

01:11:43   that you made through your own payment provider,

01:11:45   and then give them the money,

01:11:46   which is one of the most egregious things

01:11:48   I've ever seen them do.

01:11:49   - And this is one of my points here,

01:11:51   is that I don't believe the European regulation

01:11:55   specifies what Apple's business model

01:11:57   and what its relationship with its developers needs to be.

01:12:00   And we've seen the examples of this before.

01:12:02   So when I answered the question in my article,

01:12:04   like won't this cost Apple money?

01:12:06   It's like, yeah, it will.

01:12:07   It will do a certain degree,

01:12:08   but don't forget Apple is going to find every other way

01:12:13   to claw money back from these developers.

01:12:15   And we've seen it in other places

01:12:17   where they want you to, yeah,

01:12:19   basically open your books and pay a fee.

01:12:22   There's the potential,

01:12:24   Mark Gurman mentions in the article,

01:12:25   to pay for notarization, I think that definitely

01:12:28   you could be in a scenario where Apple is changing.

01:12:32   So Apple's core argument is that they provide

01:12:36   the developer tools and the APIs for free,

01:12:39   or for $100, depending.

01:12:40   And if this is gonna be the way it works in the future,

01:12:45   you could say, "Oh, they're not gonna change that."

01:12:47   It's always been that way.

01:12:48   No, if they can get their money, they will change it.

01:12:51   So one scenario is they will change developer membership

01:12:55   to be based on your app revenue.

01:12:58   And that your a hundred dollar membership

01:13:00   that even the largest developer pays

01:13:03   will suddenly be a hundred or a thousand or 10,000

01:13:07   or a hundred thousand or a million dollars a year,

01:13:09   depending on who you are.

01:13:11   And I know we've had this conversation before,

01:13:13   but I'm just gonna say it again.

01:13:14   It's much less likely that governments

01:13:18   are going to regulate how businesses

01:13:21   charge other businesses for access,

01:13:26   which is not the same, right?

01:13:28   And like, I know that seems weird,

01:13:30   but like, I think it's a much harder thing to do to say,

01:13:35   you know, we're making it not just illegal

01:13:37   for you to have one app store,

01:13:41   but we're gonna make it illegal for you

01:13:43   to charge other people for the products and tools

01:13:47   that they need to make products for your platform, right?

01:13:50   - Yeah, because these governments that we mentioned

01:13:53   accepted this.

01:13:55   - It's not like they couldn't.

01:13:56   It's that that's a much harder sell

01:13:57   'cause you are now getting into the business

01:14:00   of saying businesses shouldn't charge more than X

01:14:03   for their services or product.

01:14:05   'Cause Apple will come and say,

01:14:06   we built this entire platform.

01:14:07   I mean, this has been Apple's argument all along.

01:14:09   We built this entire platform.

01:14:10   We built the developer tools.

01:14:12   We built the APIs.

01:14:13   You know, that has value.

01:14:15   we deserve to be compensated for that value.

01:14:17   And I'm not saying that they're,

01:14:22   like the counterargument is you reap the value

01:14:24   in the increased value of the hardware that you sell.

01:14:27   I get it.

01:14:28   But like, I'm just saying governments are even more loath

01:14:31   to go to companies and say,

01:14:35   okay, you have to make your profits

01:14:39   on the hardware you sell.

01:14:41   Or do they go and they say,

01:14:43   Oh, well, Sony and Microsoft,

01:14:45   you don't make profits on your game consoles.

01:14:47   So we'll allow you this, but Apple, you make profits.

01:14:50   Let's see how much, open your books.

01:14:51   Let's see how much profit you make on the iPhone.

01:14:53   Where does it fit?

01:14:54   Like they can do that.

01:14:56   I'm just saying it's a harder sell

01:14:58   because you're going deeper down into the business now.

01:15:01   Whereas they can say, look, yay, we opened it, freedom.

01:15:05   And then all the people who thought

01:15:08   that they were gonna be saving money

01:15:09   that they weren't gonna have to give to Apple

01:15:11   are gonna say, no, it's not freedom.

01:15:12   Apple still takes their money,

01:15:14   and that's when the governments kind of whistle

01:15:16   and walk away, and they're like, freedom,

01:15:19   and they walk away.

01:15:21   Maybe I'm being cynical there,

01:15:22   but I just feel like Apple's gonna do everything it can

01:15:24   to get money out of all the developers.

01:15:27   And the carrot is that notarization process,

01:15:32   like if you pay and you're a valid Apple developer

01:15:35   and whatever, the carrot is that that's a lot slicker

01:15:38   of a way into the system.

01:15:40   And again, I have a hard time believing

01:15:41   that the regulations would outlaw it.

01:15:43   But it's possible, it's not impossible

01:15:45   that they'd be like, no, notarization is not,

01:15:49   like you can't make that an impediment.

01:15:51   And does the legislation say you can't warn people

01:15:55   about this feature?

01:15:56   Probably not, right?

01:15:57   It probably allows you to warn them as long as you do it.

01:16:00   So again, this is the most, for me,

01:16:03   this is the most likely path Apple will take

01:16:04   is what they did on the Mac, which is,

01:16:06   it'll be, you're in the App Store

01:16:09   or we'll make it kind of hard for you

01:16:10   but you'll have to go through the notarization process

01:16:12   and be an Apple developer

01:16:13   and probably agree to pay us money.

01:16:15   Or you can be all the way on the outside

01:16:17   and maybe you don't have to pay us money then,

01:16:20   but it's gonna be double hard

01:16:21   to get your thing in the store

01:16:22   when it's gonna be expert to get your thing on the phone

01:16:24   and it's gonna be extra scary.

01:16:26   And do you wanna do that?

01:16:27   And even then they might say you still have to pay us.

01:16:29   So they're gonna try to get their money.

01:16:32   - So it's been said a bunch of times

01:16:34   that Android has it's side loading

01:16:38   and it has for all time.

01:16:39   you can put alternate app stores in Android,

01:16:42   that they haven't seen great results.

01:16:46   Do you think that this might be a similar answer here?

01:16:49   Do you think this would happen in the same way?

01:16:51   Businesses tend to not stay out of the Play Store

01:16:55   for very long.

01:16:56   - Yeah, that's the, this is what we've seen,

01:16:59   is being in the default app store is a great advantage.

01:17:07   And I'm not sure, again, I kind of feel like,

01:17:12   although Epic would love for this to be the case,

01:17:16   I think that the regulators are reluctant to say,

01:17:20   you have to put, like to tell a platform owner,

01:17:26   you can't even be the default.

01:17:29   Like you have to not be on, like somebody proposed

01:17:33   and it was really a stupid proposal in the US

01:17:35   that was like, when you get an iPhone,

01:17:38   it shouldn't have any apps on it,

01:17:39   'cause that unjustly prefers Apple.

01:17:42   And it's like, well, that's a disaster for users

01:17:45   if it doesn't have apps on it.

01:17:46   So I feel like where we've come is,

01:17:50   the home field advantage is allowed.

01:17:52   It's just not allowed to be a monopoly.

01:17:55   That seems to be where we're landing on this.

01:17:57   So Android has a home field advantage,

01:17:59   which is the Play Store is installed by default,

01:18:02   at least on many devices,

01:18:05   there's no like 100% for anything on Android,

01:18:09   but like their store is on there and it's real convenient.

01:18:13   - Yeah.

01:18:14   - And yeah, if you get Samsung,

01:18:15   you might have a Samsung store or whatever,

01:18:16   but like it's real convenient, it's there,

01:18:18   you can get to everything.

01:18:20   And if you wanna leave and then only be on the outside,

01:18:23   you now have to walk everybody through turning off

01:18:25   that default setting and where you go to download it

01:18:29   and how you have to approve it and get it in there.

01:18:31   Not that you can't, Lauren just side-loaded an app

01:18:36   onto a Kindle Fire last week at her job.

01:18:42   Like it can be done, but it's more work.

01:18:47   And if you're trying to get like the best benefit,

01:18:49   also the payment system,

01:18:51   like you're already on the payment system.

01:18:53   They already have your credit card.

01:18:54   This is that argument like Apple already has

01:18:56   your credit card, you use it for a bunch of stuff.

01:18:59   You trust Apple with your credit card.

01:19:01   It's in the App Store, that's super easy.

01:19:03   Like that's why that is so powerful.

01:19:04   And it's not powerful because, I would argue,

01:19:07   it's not powerful because Apple is the only option.

01:19:11   It's powerful because Apple is known, it's the default,

01:19:15   they run the platform.

01:19:17   And it seems to me that the trend in this legislation

01:19:20   is more the monopoly part you can't do.

01:19:25   You have to open it up to competition,

01:19:27   but you can still be number one, right?

01:19:29   You can, you're still allowed to be the default.

01:19:31   It's better for the users,

01:19:33   and I would argue this very strongly,

01:19:35   to have apps on your phone when you buy it, right?

01:19:37   It's better for users.

01:19:39   What you can't do is say only our apps

01:19:42   or only our app store.

01:19:43   You need to let others come in and compete.

01:19:45   But at the same time, that is an advantage

01:19:48   and that they will have, like most people,

01:19:51   I think will never turn on this feature

01:19:53   because they will be comfortable as it is.

01:19:57   How do you feel about this?

01:19:59   Do you, what do you think?

01:20:01   Do you want this?

01:20:02   Do you not want this?

01:20:04   Where are you on this?

01:20:06   - I completely support this.

01:20:10   - Okay.

01:20:11   - I realize it will change the world

01:20:15   and there are gonna be downsides to it.

01:20:16   It's not 100% great.

01:20:19   But I use a Mac every day

01:20:21   and the world hasn't ended on the Mac.

01:20:24   Now that there are things that are not,

01:20:27   There are things that are not the Mac App Store.

01:20:29   Right, it predates, the openness of the Mac

01:20:32   predates the Mac App Store, obviously.

01:20:33   But like, the Mac has managed to make it work

01:20:36   where there's an App Store,

01:20:37   and there's different software levels,

01:20:39   and there's this process for having a trusted developer,

01:20:44   and then separately you can just run

01:20:46   completely untrusted software, and it works fine.

01:20:51   My feelings are, I don't think this is cataclysmic

01:20:55   to Apple's business, I think Apple's gonna be fine.

01:20:58   I feel like Apple, it's good because Apple

01:21:03   isn't just motivated by money, although they are,

01:21:09   they're also motivated by control.

01:21:12   And like, I keep coming back to all of the apps

01:21:18   that don't exist because the developers can invest money

01:21:22   into developing an app that might push the envelope in certain ways because if Apple

01:21:27   won't accept it, they have nowhere else to put that app. Right? And so it's not just

01:21:34   obvious categories of apps that are not allowed, although it is those two. Like emulators is

01:21:40   a great example. Just no emulators. Okay. And I want them. And I want them. And although

01:21:44   you can get them, it's really inconvenient to get them on iOS. And it should be less,

01:21:50   it should be easier, right?

01:21:52   But also anything that is perceived internally,

01:21:56   just inside their own brain by a developer

01:21:59   as being something Apple might not like,

01:22:01   they go on to the next idea, right?

01:22:03   You just go on to the next idea

01:22:04   because you've heard too many horror stories

01:22:06   about Apple rejecting your app.

01:22:08   And if Apple rejects your app, what do you do?

01:22:10   Right now the answer is nothing.

01:22:13   I mean, I guess today the answer is

01:22:14   can you do it in catalyst and put it on the Mac?

01:22:16   But like it will never be a mobile app

01:22:18   because you can't get it in the app store

01:22:20   if Apple says no.

01:22:22   In the future, if this is the case,

01:22:25   maybe you still try to be in the app store,

01:22:27   but if Apple says no, you've got to fall back.

01:22:31   And maybe you come up with something

01:22:34   knowing that it won't be in the app store,

01:22:36   but that it's gonna be so awesome

01:22:37   that people are gonna wanna download it separately, right?

01:22:39   And that stuff doesn't happen today.

01:22:41   I think people don't give enough credit

01:22:43   to the chilling effect that is Apple's often capricious

01:22:47   an arbitrary set of policies about the App Store,

01:22:51   as well as being very particular in some cases

01:22:55   where they're like, "We're just never gonna allow apps

01:22:57   like this in the App Store."

01:22:58   That shut off whole categories of apps.

01:23:02   But it's not just that, right?

01:23:04   It's not just the emulators.

01:23:05   It is anything that might possibly

01:23:09   offend an App Store approver.

01:23:11   The wise developers learned a long time ago

01:23:15   just not to develop those apps anymore,

01:23:17   and we don't get them.

01:23:18   And that's a real shame.

01:23:20   And I would argue it makes the platform less rich,

01:23:24   and that that actually hurts Apple,

01:23:26   but Apple has steadfastly refused to change their ways.

01:23:30   So here we are.

01:23:31   Like in the end, I'm for it because it's a net positive,

01:23:36   and it will let those of us who want to see things

01:23:40   that are more than what the app store has to offer

01:23:43   to get them.

01:23:44   And I do that on my Mac today.

01:23:45   And the fact is my iPhone belongs to me

01:23:47   and my iPad belongs to me.

01:23:48   And fundamentally, what is true about the Mac

01:23:52   should be true about those devices.

01:23:54   And I'm reminded of an Apple executive standing on stage

01:23:57   at WWDC in 2019 and saying,

01:24:00   "If you want to run code on your Mac, you can, fundamentally.

01:24:05   "We may put up some walls, we may make it harder,

01:24:10   "you may have to turn some things on or off,

01:24:12   "but if you wanna run software on your Mac

01:24:15   "that we don't know about that you just wanna run,

01:24:18   "we're not going to stop you."

01:24:21   I think that should be the rule for everything, right?

01:24:26   It's my device.

01:24:30   If I wanna, you put up all the guard rails you like,

01:24:33   but it's my device.

01:24:34   If I wanna run an emulator or anything on my iPad,

01:24:42   Who is Apple to say, "I don't want that.

01:24:47   "I do want that."

01:24:49   And Apple's saying, "No, you can't have it.

01:24:50   "We're not gonna let you have a whole class of software

01:24:54   "because we've decided it's not in your best interest."

01:24:56   It's like, "Look, man, I bought the iPad.

01:24:59   "It's mine.

01:25:00   "I'm gonna run the software on it that I want to."

01:25:02   And I know it's like, "Well, no, it's an iPad.

01:25:03   "It doesn't do that."

01:25:04   I'm like, "Yeah, it should, it should.

01:25:08   "It's a computer, like a Mac.

01:25:10   "It should run the software I wanna run."

01:25:12   Period.

01:25:13   And I appreciate Apple trying to protect its users,

01:25:17   but the truth is, Apple's protection of its users

01:25:19   has been fused to Apple's desire to maximize its money,

01:25:23   the money it gets in its market for too long.

01:25:27   - So I'm very similar to you on here, right?

01:25:29   I wanna make a couple of like,

01:25:31   I agree with 100% of everything you said,

01:25:33   and I stand with you on every single one of these opinions.

01:25:36   I just wanna call out a couple of other

01:25:38   little specific parts, right?

01:25:40   there are entire types of apps

01:25:42   that we're not allowed to have.

01:25:44   I wanna be able to have the Xbox Game Pass on my iPhone,

01:25:48   but Apple has said they won't let them do it.

01:25:49   No, but I want that, so why can't I have that?

01:25:52   I want that and Microsoft want that,

01:25:55   so why should Apple say no?

01:25:57   Like, I want it. - And the answer is

01:25:58   their business model. - Yeah.

01:25:59   - Is the only reason, it's the only reason.

01:26:01   - That's, you know, like, I'm already a customer

01:26:04   of Microsoft, right?

01:26:06   I'm already a customer of Apple.

01:26:08   Apple doesn't also need to take a buyout of Microsoft.

01:26:10   They don't need to do that.

01:26:12   Like to kind of just, what you were just saying, right?

01:26:14   Like I said, user protection is not equal to making money.

01:26:17   Right, like they are not the same.

01:26:19   And for too long Apple have treated them the same.

01:26:21   Like, that we protect our users, that's great.

01:26:24   Oh, but also we will be a part of every transaction.

01:26:27   Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not the same thing.

01:26:30   They can, those two things, like you making money

01:26:34   and you're protecting users should both exist,

01:26:37   but separately.

01:26:38   The issue is for too many years,

01:26:40   they have treated them as one and the same.

01:26:42   And that's why we're in this mess.

01:26:44   - It's been very convenient for them to conflate

01:26:47   protecting users and the business models

01:26:50   that make them lots of money.

01:26:51   It's been very easy, 'cause why wouldn't you, right?

01:26:54   Here's a thing we do that's good

01:26:55   that also makes us a boatload of money.

01:26:58   So we'll just keep doing it

01:27:00   because of the boatload of money.

01:27:01   - And again, that was what made all of that stuff

01:27:03   in the Netherlands so interesting,

01:27:05   is we got to see them in real time,

01:27:08   like changing the language, right?

01:27:12   Where like in the beginning it was kind of just like,

01:27:14   well, if it's not us, it's not trustworthy,

01:27:17   which was just like a wild thing to say.

01:27:20   But you believe that there is parts of the company

01:27:22   that believe this, right?

01:27:24   - It's the paternalistic nature of it too,

01:27:26   which is like, it's Apple's job to protect users

01:27:29   from the big wide world.

01:27:32   and it is very much the silo or walled garden

01:27:35   or whatever you call it.

01:27:36   What's hilarious about it is like,

01:27:39   you know we all live in the world, right?

01:27:41   Like not everything we do is through Apple.

01:27:44   People have to live their lives

01:27:46   and go to the grocery store and get on the bus

01:27:49   and buy a sandwich.

01:27:51   People have to do these things.

01:27:53   So it is a bit disingenuous for Apple to say,

01:27:57   oh no, no, no, no, all payments must be through us.

01:28:01   And are they, like, they're not wrong

01:28:04   that if you open it up to anything,

01:28:07   there could be a scam app that takes your credit card

01:28:09   and it does a bad thing with it and whatever.

01:28:11   That's all true, like in life.

01:28:14   But Apple has made no effort to make the rules, like,

01:28:17   clear, more open yet also safe, right?

01:28:21   They've made no steps in that direction

01:28:23   because why would they?

01:28:24   - And same, like,

01:28:25   all of this stuff would hit differently

01:28:29   if I couldn't get scammed on the App Store, but I can.

01:28:33   - Also true, I didn't even get into that,

01:28:35   but yes, the other part of this is that Apple

01:28:37   has completely abdicated their responsibilities

01:28:40   or largely abdicated their responsibilities

01:28:41   to have the incredibly clean and tidy safe space

01:28:46   on the App Store because they have scam apps

01:28:49   that charge you $60 a week to do nothing.

01:28:52   - Which are supposed to go through review,

01:28:53   which do go through review, you know what I mean?

01:28:55   So they, I'm not safe by using the App Store.

01:28:57   - But an Xbox Game Pass is not allowed.

01:28:59   Oh come on, that's just crazy, what are you talking about?

01:29:02   - Yeah.

01:29:02   - And again, I own this thing, it's mine.

01:29:07   And there is, I paid good money for it.

01:29:11   In fact, and this is like, I know that people get,

01:29:13   like they get all upset about the PlayStation,

01:29:17   Xbox thing, right, of like,

01:29:19   did they lose money on the consoles,

01:29:21   that changed the business model.

01:29:22   But my point, what I'm gonna say is like,

01:29:23   I know I paid you more money than it cost you to make this.

01:29:28   like this phone.

01:29:30   So you made a profit, right?

01:29:32   It's not like that I bought it from you, a heavy discount,

01:29:36   and we're trying to like over time,

01:29:38   balance out that thing so you can make money.

01:29:41   No, you're good from me already.

01:29:43   You made 30 to 40% more than it cost.

01:29:46   You made a tidy margin from me.

01:29:48   So I 100% own this thing, it's mine.

01:29:51   - Yes, and we're not saying

01:29:54   that we're not going to give you more money.

01:29:56   we're saying that you need to compete for our business.

01:30:00   Right? 'Cause they open this up,

01:30:03   it's not like I'm not gonna be spending money

01:30:05   on the app store.

01:30:06   Not like I'm gonna be not doing in-app purchases.

01:30:08   None of that is, I'm not gonna be not paying money to Apple.

01:30:12   They're still gonna get services revenue from me,

01:30:15   but they're gonna have to compete

01:30:17   for my business in some areas.

01:30:18   They're gonna have to reap their existing policies

01:30:21   in certain areas where they've crowded things

01:30:24   out of the store or broken apps that are in the store

01:30:27   because they get in the way of the most

01:30:30   of the best user experience,

01:30:31   like with buying eBooks and stuff, right?

01:30:35   That all, they're gonna have to change what they do.

01:30:38   And I think that that's a good thing,

01:30:40   but it's not like they're gonna,

01:30:41   like even saying they make a tidy profit

01:30:43   when I buy an iPhone, which is true,

01:30:45   it's not gonna end there.

01:30:47   It's not like this flips a switch

01:30:49   and suddenly Apple has no services revenue

01:30:51   and has no app store revenue.

01:30:53   That's not gonna happen,

01:30:54   but it does mean that there will be other options.

01:30:58   - Yeah.

01:30:59   And like, my Mac is just as risky, right?

01:31:03   And they let, I'm allowed to do whatever I want here.

01:31:06   I can do anything.

01:31:07   As you say, like, Apple have notarization,

01:31:10   but the system will also let me ignore that.

01:31:13   Like, I can do anything and Apple let me.

01:31:15   And as you say, I've stood on stage and said,

01:31:18   we're gonna let you do it.

01:31:18   Now, my Mac has all of the same information

01:31:22   my iPhone has on it because Apple makes it so easy

01:31:24   to spread that info.

01:31:26   All my photos are there, my messages are there,

01:31:27   my notes are there, my password--

01:31:29   - Just not your health data,

01:31:29   which is super annoying actually, but yes, okay.

01:31:32   - But again, it's like of all of the things

01:31:34   that I've just mentioned, my health data is maybe the one

01:31:36   that personally for me, I know this is different

01:31:38   for different people, but I would care less about

01:31:41   about those things and I would honestly,

01:31:43   for a lot of people, your messages are much more sensitive

01:31:48   than your health data.

01:31:50   Hence why I had such a bug up my butt

01:31:52   about the encryption thing,

01:31:53   which I'm happy that I will eventually be able to turn on.

01:31:56   Because that's what I want to be locked down

01:31:59   and no one can see it.

01:32:01   So my Mac has all of this stuff.

01:32:03   So this isn't a lawless, risky playground here.

01:32:08   You are okay with me being able to sideload

01:32:12   and download and run anything here on this device,

01:32:17   which has all of the same stuff on it as my iPhone.

01:32:22   Like, what is so precious about my iPhone?

01:32:25   Why can't it do these things?

01:32:28   What is so delicate about this device

01:32:32   that it can't run applications

01:32:34   that I download from the internet on it?

01:32:36   And again, all of this, right,

01:32:38   none of this had to happen.

01:32:41   None of this had to happen.

01:32:43   This could have all been taken care of a long time ago,

01:32:46   way easier than this, without being so harsh.

01:32:51   But they let it go too far.

01:32:52   We've been talking about this for years, right?

01:32:55   Years now of like, Apple, you gotta change course on this.

01:32:58   You can't keep doing this.

01:33:00   Well, because a government's gonna come in

01:33:02   and tell you what you can and can't do.

01:33:03   And now it looks like a government's gonna come in

01:33:06   and tell them what they can and can't do.

01:33:08   - Yeah, it's a, again, I know we're gonna get

01:33:11   a lot of feedback, where it's like,

01:33:12   oh, but what about this, but what about this?

01:33:14   like trust us, there are gonna be downsides

01:33:17   and we know what they are.

01:33:18   Like I can see it now because we see it on the Mac.

01:33:21   There are gonna be downsides, but it's gonna be fine.

01:33:26   Like, I mean, that's the bottom line

01:33:27   is that Apple has made such a thing

01:33:29   about this being the end of the world.

01:33:31   And the fact is that computing platforms

01:33:33   like iPhone and iPad have been,

01:33:35   had open software models for a long time.

01:33:37   In fact, this is a stronger model

01:33:39   because presumably still defaults with the App Store.

01:33:42   and people have been trained for more than a decade

01:33:44   to use the App Store.

01:33:46   Therefore, it's gonna be pretty strong and pretty safe,

01:33:50   and then people are gonna be able to open it up

01:33:52   and try other stuff if they want to.

01:33:53   And yes, there will be downsides,

01:33:56   but I just think the upside here is better,

01:34:00   and I think it's better for users.

01:34:01   I don't think it's just better for Tim Sweeney at Epic.

01:34:04   I think this is better for everybody

01:34:07   to have the ability to choose.

01:34:10   I'll say the only downside that I potentially see

01:34:13   is if you end up in a fragmented environment

01:34:15   where you have to have three app stores on your phone

01:34:17   in order to get the apps you want.

01:34:19   But I really believe the power of the app store,

01:34:22   the Apple app store is as the default

01:34:25   is going to mean that almost everybody wants to be

01:34:28   in the app store if they possibly can be.

01:34:30   - Yeah, like all these big apps,

01:34:33   they're gonna be in the app store.

01:34:34   - Like Kindle, Kindle, let's say Kindle.

01:34:37   Okay, Amazon's gonna wanna do a version of Kindle for iOS

01:34:39   that lets you buy things directly from Amazon,

01:34:42   which you can't do now, you have to go out to the web.

01:34:44   Okay, is Amazon gonna pull the Kindle app,

01:34:47   the Kindle Reader app from the App Store?

01:34:51   I don't think so.

01:34:52   I don't think so.

01:34:53   Even if they offer another one separately,

01:34:55   that's gonna be really hard to say,

01:34:58   hey, you're a Kindle user with an iPhone.

01:35:00   Okay, here's what you need to do.

01:35:01   You need to go into settings and you need to,

01:35:03   it's like, no, go to the App Store.

01:35:05   Like, we'll, you know,

01:35:08   I know that it's complicated and it's gonna reduce

01:35:10   the number of people who are getting that external version

01:35:12   if they ever even develop it,

01:35:13   but like to forego being in the App Store for that reason.

01:35:18   I'll also point out once this Pandora's box opens,

01:35:22   I know Pandora's box is scary, right?

01:35:25   But once this opens, Apple's behavior is going to change.

01:35:29   That's the other thing that we haven't really talked

01:35:31   about here, but like Apple is going to be unable

01:35:35   to keep their current policies

01:35:37   when they're competing with other people.

01:35:40   Like once this is open,

01:35:42   I would not be surprised if they say,

01:35:44   "Oh, by the way, Amazon,

01:35:46   you can use your own payment system in the Kindle app.

01:35:48   Go ahead.

01:35:49   We give you permission."

01:35:51   I think one of the unclear things,

01:35:53   I am not a European legislative expert, again,

01:35:56   one of the unclear things is

01:35:57   whether Apple will be required to open up payment

01:36:00   within the App Store apps,

01:36:02   or whether letting people have apps

01:36:04   outside of the App Store is sufficient

01:36:06   in terms of allowing apps to use third-party payment systems.

01:36:10   I'm not clear on that one,

01:36:12   but I just wanna put it out there

01:36:14   that one of the things that will happen

01:36:16   when Apple has competition in the platform

01:36:17   is a little different,

01:36:18   is that Apple will be patrolling the App Store

01:36:21   in a different way because it will know

01:36:24   that it doesn't have all that power.

01:36:28   And that will change how it behaves.

01:36:31   It could also be more restrictive, right?

01:36:33   they might actually start rejecting more apps saying,

01:36:36   "Look, if you don't wanna follow by our rules,

01:36:38   just go outside."

01:36:39   And knowing that it's a lot less of a scandal

01:36:43   to reject an app that can just go to the other app stores

01:36:46   or just be on the internet.

01:36:48   It's actually a lot easier for Apple to tighten up

01:36:50   in certain places if it wants to,

01:36:52   but it's gonna have to compete.

01:36:53   And they're probably products that they want

01:36:55   on their platform like Netflix and Amazon.

01:36:57   And the question is just what the push and pull is there.

01:36:59   Like who wants it more?

01:37:01   How much does Amazon want payment inside the Apple App Store

01:37:04   versus being outside it?

01:37:06   How much does Netflix want that?

01:37:08   Remains to be seen.

01:37:10   So yeah, it's complicated.

01:37:11   It's gonna be a little bit messy,

01:37:12   but I think it's fundamentally the right thing to happen.

01:37:17   I think that the App Store monopoly is unnatural.

01:37:21   It's not how these systems are supposed to be.

01:37:23   And it's not, it doesn't,

01:37:26   and all the arguments about user safety,

01:37:28   as you just said, Myke,

01:37:28   All the arguments about user safety have some truth in them,

01:37:32   but that's not why Apple's making those arguments, come on.

01:37:35   Apple's not making those arguments.

01:37:37   Apple does wanna protect user safety,

01:37:39   but do they not care about safety of Mac users?

01:37:41   Of course they do.

01:37:43   Of course they do.

01:37:43   But there, they can't roll back 30 years,

01:37:47   30 plus years of history.

01:37:52   They can't close the barn door there.

01:37:54   And so we're fine with it.

01:37:58   So this is how it needs to be on the iPad and the iPhone.

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01:39:54   Let's lighten it up a little bit to finish out this episode.

01:39:58   Yay! Happy holiday special to all.

01:40:02   Hasn't this been the newsiest of holidays?

01:40:04   Yep. You know, this would have been different, but this is our holiday special today.

01:40:09   We're gonna just do it now at the end.

01:40:10   This is it.

01:40:11   It is. We are going to talk about our origin stories with Apple,

01:40:17   which is a great idea that Jason had.

01:40:20   So we could just reshare. You know, we've both spoke about these before,

01:40:23   But how do we get here?

01:40:25   Where, you know, like, we have a lot of criticism for Apple,

01:40:28   but we do it because we care, you know?

01:40:30   This is a company that we've both not just built careers around,

01:40:34   but it's also like an important part of who we are as people.

01:40:36   Like, we focus on these products, we care about them.

01:40:39   So for me, the iPod Mini was my entryway.

01:40:47   -Ah, interesting. -To Apple products.

01:40:49   I'd used Mac laptops in the 90s.

01:40:54   Powerbooks.

01:40:56   Yeah, it would have been Powerbooks, yeah, of course.

01:40:59   My uncle was a Mac user, but I didn't use them.

01:41:04   I used them because they were the computer, right?

01:41:08   It wasn't like a thing that I ever really thought about,

01:41:11   about what I was using, because I was a young kid.

01:41:14   But the iPod mini was kind of like,

01:41:17   like that was a product I loved.

01:41:20   I loved the colors of them.

01:41:21   You know, it looked super cool.

01:41:24   I had a pink one, I had a pink iPod mini.

01:41:26   I still have that iPod mini actually.

01:41:29   It was something that I treasure

01:41:31   that I still have that little thing.

01:41:32   And then after this, it was other iPods.

01:41:35   Lots of iPods would follow for me.

01:41:36   I was a big iPod fan.

01:41:38   I was also a PC user.

01:41:41   So there was a time where everything changed for me.

01:41:44   I had, I think the iPod Nano.

01:41:48   Could the iPod Nano play video

01:41:49   or was it just the iPod video that played video?

01:41:52   - Eventually the iPod Nano could play video, one of them.

01:41:55   The fat Nano and then the really tall next generation Nano

01:41:59   after that could play video.

01:42:01   The fat Nano, which my kids used to watch videos on

01:42:06   in the car, had the video of the normal orientation

01:42:09   and then they went back to the super tall Nano

01:42:12   and it would play video and you'd have to turn it on its side to watch the video.

01:42:16   So this is kind of around the time of the iPod Nano, right?

01:42:20   I was a PC user and downloaded an app called Confabulator, which later became Yahoo!

01:42:27   Widgets and was the kind of inspiration for Dashboard.

01:42:31   Yes, right, because it was JavaScript based widgets that would run and put little, little

01:42:42   little widgets on your computer. It's actually very much like I have scriptable widgets on

01:42:50   my iPad now and they are JavaScript, so they're actually, it's like come all the way back

01:42:55   around again.

01:42:56   And also current iOS widgets remind me of confabulator widgets a lot.

01:43:00   For sure. All of them.

01:43:01   They just have that kind of look to it. Now, I downloaded confabulator and they had a bunch

01:43:05   of widgets on their website for something called dignity.

01:43:08   Right.

01:43:09   I didn't know what this was but there were loads of them.

01:43:11   So I was like, "What is this thing?"

01:43:13   And I found out it was a video podcast.

01:43:15   I started watching "Indignation."

01:43:16   This opened me up to more tech podcasts.

01:43:18   I found out about "Twit" and started watching all these things.

01:43:21   This then started to open me up more to what, like, Apple was doing

01:43:25   and then I started reading Apple blogs and all this kind of stuff.

01:43:29   So my love of the iPod was the Halo,

01:43:31   but then I set my sights on getting my first Mac.

01:43:35   Like, I wanted a Mac.

01:43:37   an apple event was coming up and I decided I would go with the next iMac. Like they were

01:43:46   going to update the iMac and I was going to get it. Whatever it was. So it would have been the

01:43:52   update of the iMac G5 and out sheer luck when I was ready to buy they updated that machine to Intel

01:43:59   and I was like great I'm going to get the Intel iMac. So that was my first Mac. The 2006 Intel

01:44:05   I was 18 years old. I was able to use some money from the part time job that I had along

01:44:12   with birthday money and I got it on my birthday. That was my first Mac and I was in love with

01:44:18   that thing. You know like the big thing at that time and the thing that everyone loved

01:44:22   and I could show all my friends was photobooth. That was like the party trick of the Mac at

01:44:31   that point was the wild things that you could do with photo booth and me and my

01:44:36   friends would just spend hours taking stupid pictures in photo booth and I

01:44:41   would use you know every app that was available you know I would download them

01:44:46   all and try them all out you know I built websites in iweb you know like

01:44:49   you just at that point it's just like I'm just gonna do everything I possibly

01:44:52   can with this machine. I just loved it I just loved spending time on it learning

01:44:58   it doing things with it. This was followed by the MacBook sometime later.

01:45:04   My second Mac was the first MacBook, like the plastic MacBook, right? I went with

01:45:10   the white one. This one I spent my entire first paycheck of my full-time job, my

01:45:17   first full-time job. So it was when I started working at the bank and I

01:45:21   decided like I'm gonna spend my entire paycheck on that machine and I remember

01:45:26   I was on a training course, like my kind of like induction training course. And that was

01:45:31   when I was going to be receiving my first paycheck and I went to the ATM while I was

01:45:35   at the training course area. And I checked the ATM, sorry, I had it in there. And then

01:45:41   when I was on my way home from the training course, I went to an Apple store and bought

01:45:46   my MacBook. Like that was like, I love that thing, you know. And it's funny thinking going

01:45:53   back and thinking like even then with like my first like back in the early 2000s or whatever

01:45:59   like late 2000s when I'm still at that point trying to be like am I going to be a primarily

01:46:03   laptop user or desktop user like these same things that I think about now I was doing them then too

01:46:09   like which of these Macs is my primary Mac you know is it my iMac or my MacBook and I kind of

01:46:14   would go backwards and forwards over time. The other kind of big landmark for me it's like there

01:46:21   are these three right so it's the Intel iMac, the iPod mini, the Intel iMac and then the iPod touch

01:46:27   so like the iPhone was announced but the iPhone came out later here than it did in America

01:46:33   it came out I don't remember exactly let's say it was like six months or so before the iPhone 3G or

01:46:39   whatever like it there was a delay but we still got the original iPhone in its kind of window

01:46:46   but the iPod touch came out immediately here when it was available everywhere

01:46:52   and it was before the original iPhone came out.

01:46:54   And so I ran to an Apple store to get an iPod touch

01:47:00   because I could use iPhone OS on this thing before I could get an iPhone.

01:47:05   And so I remember I would just spend tons of time just entering contacts in

01:47:13   and just marveling at this thing.

01:47:15   So like that is like I have such memories of my original iPod touch because it showed me the

01:47:23   future of computing and I was just enamored by it and so like these three things for me like this

01:47:28   the iPod mini the iMac and the iPod touch they're kind of like the three devices that led me to

01:47:34   where I am right now. Yeah cool memories. Wow that's great. So young. I know man.

01:47:43   - Actually, the origin stories is where I really feel old,

01:47:47   I gotta say. - Yeah.

01:47:48   - This is it, 'cause I gotta go back to elementary school.

01:47:53   So there was a teacher at my elementary school

01:47:56   who was super into computers.

01:47:59   He was sort of like an ex-hippie type,

01:48:03   cool guy, really related to the students.

01:48:07   And he got, there were a couple,

01:48:10   we had a couple of Commodore pets.

01:48:12   a very old computer before the VIC-20 and the C-64

01:48:16   in the school.

01:48:20   And they ended up in his classroom

01:48:23   and there was a computer club and we would go to that.

01:48:25   And he was actually the dad of my best friend too.

01:48:27   So like we were super into it.

01:48:29   My best friend made a basic program

01:48:31   that basically told the plot of "Star Wars."

01:48:33   You could run it and it would like,

01:48:35   he drew like a tie fighter and a Darth Vader

01:48:38   and the little symbols that were available

01:48:43   on that computer.

01:48:44   Oh man, so we were super into it.

01:48:46   And then they got, we got a Commodore PET

01:48:51   and that was great.

01:48:52   And I learned to type really fast

01:48:53   and I typed in basic programs and it was awesome.

01:48:57   But my friend ended up getting an Apple II Plus.

01:49:00   And we spent a lot of time playing on the Apple II Plus

01:49:04   and then the Apple IIs also came to the schools.

01:49:06   California actually Apple gave like an Apple II

01:49:08   to every school in California at one point.

01:49:11   And so their Apple IIs were everywhere.

01:49:13   And I, in something that actually kind of

01:49:17   is a recurring theme,

01:49:18   I ended up really gravitating to the Apple IIs

01:49:20   and that Commodore computer was sort of less and less,

01:49:24   I was less and less enthusiastic about it, shall we say.

01:49:27   And in eighth grade, I think,

01:49:33   I think it was before my freshman year in high school,

01:49:36   we got an Apple IIe.

01:49:37   I used that computer through my sophomore year of college.

01:49:41   So this predates the Mac.

01:49:42   This is not my Mac origin story.

01:49:44   It really is my Apple origin story.

01:49:45   Just like you didn't start with a Mac,

01:49:46   you started with an iPod.

01:49:48   So we got that Apple IIe.

01:49:51   I took it to college.

01:49:52   I actually took,

01:49:54   my parents had saved money for me for college

01:49:57   and I took some of the money out of the money saved

01:50:00   for college to buy the Apple IIe

01:50:02   that I was gonna use in college.

01:50:04   but I used it through high school

01:50:06   and my first two years of college.

01:50:07   I had dot matrix printer.

01:50:10   Nothing like that sound of the

01:50:12   (vibrating)

01:50:14   as the dot matrix printer goes.

01:50:17   I got talked to by my eighth grade,

01:50:20   one of my eighth grade teachers

01:50:21   because I turned in an essay and it was not handwritten.

01:50:25   It was, and it was not typed.

01:50:26   It was dot matrixed and they didn't know what to do with it.

01:50:29   They're like, "You can't turn this in."

01:50:31   And I go, "What are you talking about? I typed it."

01:50:32   They're like, "No, you can't."

01:50:34   And I think they made me hand write it for a while,

01:50:36   and my handwriting was atrocious.

01:50:38   I can't remember the resolution of that,

01:50:39   but it's like, dude, it's the future.

01:50:41   You're gonna take my dot matrix printed paper

01:50:45   and you're gonna like it.

01:50:47   So I used Macs in high school,

01:50:50   but only very peripherally on our high school newspaper.

01:50:53   We had a Mac that had like Mac write,

01:50:56   and it might've been Word, an early version of Word.

01:51:00   And it had like the margins

01:51:02   for how wide the columns were on the newspaper pages,

01:51:04   you know, because it was a multi-column thing.

01:51:06   So it would be super narrow.

01:51:08   And that's where we would type in our articles.

01:51:11   And then we would take a disc down to the,

01:51:13   like the yearbook room or something.

01:51:15   And they had a laser printer

01:51:16   and we print the articles there.

01:51:18   And then you cut them out and you put wax on the back

01:51:20   and you paste them up.

01:51:21   So that was a Mac,

01:51:22   but I really just use it as a word processor.

01:51:24   In fact, the Mac,

01:51:26   when I started at my high school newspaper,

01:51:28   we didn't use a word processor or we didn't use a Mac.

01:51:30   We used an IBM Selectric word processor typewriter thing.

01:51:34   Whoa, that was not good.

01:51:36   My sophomore year I joined my college newspaper.

01:51:40   My freshman year, there was a little newspaper

01:51:43   on the little Revelle College UCSD,

01:51:46   the little sort of sub college at the university.

01:51:49   And they did all their newspaper stuff

01:51:53   on a Unix system in a terminal using VI.

01:51:58   - I don't even know if that's possible.

01:51:59   - I guess, yeah, you could do it.

01:52:02   And there's like formatting you could do

01:52:03   and then it prints it out.

01:52:04   I, so I learned how to use VI, which has served me well

01:52:08   since I still use a computer with a command line

01:52:09   to this day, but I didn't have a moment my freshman year

01:52:13   when I was working on that paper where I said,

01:52:15   "Aha, Unix and VMS and the command line

01:52:18   are the thing for me."

01:52:19   I did not have that.

01:52:21   My sophomore year, I went to the university wide newspaper.

01:52:24   It was their first year of their all Mac based newsroom.

01:52:26   And that is where it happened.

01:52:28   They used Mac SEs and they had a Mac 2CX for page layout.

01:52:32   Writers, just to be clear, this is like late 1989, early 1990.

01:52:37   Writers would come in with disks if they had a Mac

01:52:42   or if they used a Mac that was in a computer lab,

01:52:44   they could come in with a disk

01:52:45   and we would import the file off the disk and edit it

01:52:48   and put it in page maker to lay it out.

01:52:49   Or sometimes writers would come in with their notes

01:52:53   like after a meeting on deadline night

01:52:56   And we had a room in the back

01:52:58   where there was just a Mac SE set up

01:53:00   where you could just go in there and write your story.

01:53:03   Or, and this blows me away when I think about it,

01:53:08   a lot of stories, people would just come in

01:53:11   with their story on paper,

01:53:13   either printed off of a computer that was not a Mac

01:53:18   or written with a typewriter, gasp.

01:53:22   Even at the time I thought that was archaic,

01:53:24   even at the time, but they did it.

01:53:26   And then, and that was my first job at that newspaper,

01:53:31   Typist.

01:53:32   My job was to take the stories that people brought in

01:53:36   on paper and put them in one of those Mac SEs

01:53:40   in Microsoft Word so that we can put it in the page maker.

01:53:43   I am a fast typist, as has been established

01:53:45   and it served me well.

01:53:47   However, I started, I started fixing the stories

01:53:51   as I typed them in.

01:53:53   I started editing the stories as I typed them in.

01:53:56   And I appreciate the fact that the people there

01:53:57   did not say, "No typist, don't do that."

01:54:00   And instead say, "Perhaps you should not be a typist,

01:54:02   but instead should possibly be a news editor."

01:54:06   And so I became a news editor and then the news editor

01:54:10   and then the editor in chief.

01:54:11   So anyway, that sophomore year,

01:54:14   that's when I fell head over heels in love with the Mac.

01:54:16   I stopped using my Apple II as much as I could

01:54:18   in my dorm room.

01:54:19   And when I did use it, I would take the files

01:54:22   and then I would go to the paper

01:54:23   and load the files up there in Word and print them out

01:54:26   and turn them in from a laser printer

01:54:28   instead of printing them out on my dot matrix printer anymore

01:54:31   and at the end of the year,

01:54:33   my spring of my, right before I left actually for the summer,

01:54:37   so late spring of my sophomore year,

01:54:40   they had a sale at the campus bookstore

01:54:42   in the computer section on the Mac SE,

01:54:46   which is what we were using at the paper.

01:54:48   It turns out it's because that fall,

01:54:49   the Mac Classic came out.

01:54:50   So they were around and were being replaced.

01:54:53   So they had that sale, plus it was the education price.

01:54:55   So it was a super sale.

01:54:57   And suddenly it became like a moment of like,

01:54:59   "Oh, maybe I can buy a Mac."

01:55:00   So I bought that Mac SE.

01:55:02   I took my Apple II home over the summer and sold it.

01:55:05   And at that point, I mean, the rest is kind of history

01:55:09   now that I had my first Mac.

01:55:10   I was already pretty much obsessed with the Mac

01:55:13   from the newspaper office, but now I had one of my own.

01:55:16   I guess spent that summer.

01:55:17   I got to go, actually that was kind of the impetus for it too

01:55:20   was like, well, I'm not gonna go home without a Mac

01:55:23   with just this Apple II if I can help it.

01:55:25   And it's like, aha, they're having a sale.

01:55:27   And I was like, I'm gonna do it.

01:55:29   And so I did, I went home with that Apple II

01:55:30   and the SE, sold the Apple II.

01:55:32   And then like I was down the rabbit hole.

01:55:37   So I was reading Mac User Magazine.

01:55:39   I got a PowerBook when I went to grad school.

01:55:42   I got, and you know, when I go into grad school,

01:55:45   I got an internship at Mac User Magazine.

01:55:47   And really it was all on from there.

01:55:49   It happened very quickly.

01:55:51   I will point out my college girlfriend's father

01:55:54   was a Macworld subscriber.

01:55:55   I should have known the relationship wasn't gonna work out.

01:56:00   'Cause I know people think of me as a Macworld guy now,

01:56:02   but I was a Mac user guy.

01:56:04   And I was like, Macworld, what?

01:56:06   Oh, the irony.

01:56:08   And so when I was in my college newspaper,

01:56:12   it wasn't just like my Mac SE.

01:56:14   I mean, all my friends had were newspaper people

01:56:16   for the most part, and they all had Macs.

01:56:17   And even my non-newspaper related friends

01:56:21   pretty much all had Macs.

01:56:22   Lauren had a Mac that's actually right behind me right now.

01:56:27   'Cause we still have her old Mac, but not my old Mac.

01:56:30   Actually, the motherboard of my old Mac

01:56:32   is right behind me too, but it died.

01:56:35   So, and the newspaper I got to see,

01:56:40   because I didn't have the budget for it,

01:56:41   but the newspaper did.

01:56:43   We got like a parade of new Macs every year.

01:56:45   So we got like, we got two FX and then we got the two SI.

01:56:48   We got the first grayscale Mac monitor I ever saw.

01:56:51   And then the first color Mac monitor I ever saw.

01:56:54   And we use Photoshop and we started,

01:56:57   we got a scanner and we started scanning our photos in

01:56:59   instead of shooting them with a halftone camera.

01:57:03   And like, anyway, that was it.

01:57:04   Being at a college newspaper in 1989, 1990,

01:57:09   when they had literally just gotten Macs for the first time

01:57:12   and converted to all digital,

01:57:14   that was the perfect place for me to walk into

01:57:17   because not only was I useful instantly,

01:57:20   but it also just completely blew me away,

01:57:23   all those Macs being there.

01:57:25   And really, honestly, the rest is history after that.

01:57:27   So that was, then it was pretty direct to grad school

01:57:30   and to Mac user as an intern and then everything else.

01:57:34   Start with an Apple II.

01:57:36   - Ho, ho, ho.

01:57:39   - Ho, ho, ho.

01:57:41   - This kind of little ghost of Christmas past.

01:57:45   - There it is.

01:57:46   - At the end of the day.

01:57:47   - But in a good way, nice way, nice ghost.

01:57:48   - Nice ghost.

01:57:49   - Oh, by the way, a little sidebar, I watched "Spirited",

01:57:53   which we talked about like two years ago

01:57:55   when they made the deal for "Spirited".

01:57:56   I watched "Spirited", I liked it.

01:57:57   It's basically a Broadway musical.

01:57:59   Go in knowing that it's basically a Broadway musical.

01:58:02   - Great.

01:58:03   - But I thought it was fun, and I thought it was a fun take

01:58:05   on the Christmas carol thing that was not the same

01:58:09   Christmas Carol story I have seen before and there is in fact a line in there

01:58:13   that is where a character says "oh you're not doing Christmas Carol again has that

01:58:18   not been done enough?" That's like yeah okay. Yeah I do want to see it it's like

01:58:23   it's it's but it was on my list to watch over the holiday break right that was

01:58:27   kind of now-ish but it's on my I put it in my up next queue Jason so it's in

01:58:32   there. Yeah great. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade. We

01:58:39   We took a week off of Ask Upgrade so we could fit everything in that we wanted today, but

01:58:43   we would really love your Ask Upgrade questions.

01:58:45   You can use ?askupgrade in the Relay FM members Discord, you can use #askupgrade on Twitter,

01:58:51   and you can also send them to us over emails we mentioned earlier on in the show.

01:58:56   I'd really appreciate some more.

01:58:58   I think that the Twitter exodus, we have less Ask Upgrade questions than normal, so please

01:59:03   send them in to us, we'd appreciate it.

01:59:05   And as we said, we're working on some other stuff

01:59:07   for that in the future.

01:59:09   If you wanna find Jason online,

01:59:10   you can go to sixcolors.com.

01:59:13   - Indeed.

01:59:13   - And if you wanna find me online.

01:59:16   - Listen to this podcast.

01:59:19   - You can listen to my shows.

01:59:20   I mean, I do other things, right?

01:59:22   You go to theme system.com,

01:59:23   you can find out what I'm doing there

01:59:24   and what that's all about.

01:59:26   That's something interesting that I work on.

01:59:28   I'm working on that.

01:59:29   Like, what is my new sign off?

01:59:31   Don't know yet.

01:59:32   I'll work on it.

01:59:33   I'll think about it.

01:59:34   What you need to do is create a website,

01:59:37   a new version of your mic website

01:59:39   that says all the things you do.

01:59:40   - Yeah, I have a-- - And just point people there.

01:59:42   - I have a micheli.net bio page,

01:59:46   but I wanna refresh it, I wanna give it a new coat of paint,

01:59:49   but that's like a thing.

01:59:51   I've got a task to take care of that at some point

01:59:54   and have to say like, "Hey, go there,"

01:59:56   and you can find out about everything that I do.

01:59:58   You say, "Yeah, I'll probably do that,"

02:00:00   and I think I might just make it

02:00:01   a little bit more visual than it is currently.

02:00:02   - Yeah, I think that's the way to do it.

02:00:05   - 'Cause I left Twitter.

02:00:06   We're gonna talk about that in Upgrade Plus today

02:00:07   if you're interested.

02:00:08   We've been talking about it a lot.

02:00:10   - So I'm on MacBreak Weekly every week now too,

02:00:12   on Tuesdays, I mean, they release it on Wednesday,

02:00:15   but the video, we stream it live on Tuesdays

02:00:17   and we record it then.

02:00:18   So, and one of the funny things there is Leo

02:00:20   always wants to point people to where all my podcasts are.

02:00:23   And he actually guilted me into making like a

02:00:24   sixcolors.com/podcast, which also has Dan's podcast on it.

02:00:28   And I need to clean that up, but it's the same thing

02:00:30   where it's like, where do I point people to say,

02:00:33   here's what I do.

02:00:34   And I'm thinking I might actually need to do

02:00:36   what you're doing, which is have a concise, just me,

02:00:39   what are the things that I do kind of site somewhere

02:00:41   or page on six colors or something.

02:00:44   It's an interesting question.

02:00:46   - I'm gonna think about it.

02:00:47   I'm gonna work on it.

02:00:48   - Yeah.

02:00:48   - Just have something.

02:00:50   - Yeah, and have it be a place that we control.

02:00:52   - Yeah.

02:00:53   That's what I'm all about these days.

02:00:54   Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade.

02:00:58   Hope you have a lovely holiday break.

02:01:01   Merry Christmas to you if you celebrate.

02:01:03   We'll be back on Boxing Day with the 9th annual upgrade.

02:01:07   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

02:01:11   Good afternoon.

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