437: Luxury Car for Nerds


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 437.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace,

00:00:15   CleanMyMac X, and Trade.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:20   Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:21   - Hi, Jon Hurley.

00:00:23   Aren't all my co-hosts named Jon now?

00:00:25   - I mean, if that's what you're looking for,

00:00:27   if you need that, you can do that.

00:00:28   No, I think we need to revert to normalcy now.

00:00:31   It's good to have you back.

00:00:32   - Good to be back.

00:00:33   And I have a #snowtalk question.

00:00:35   It comes from Brantz.

00:00:36   This was such a specific question

00:00:39   that I wanted to ask it in case there was some kind of reason

00:00:42   that Brantz asked this that maybe I'm not aware of.

00:00:45   Brantz wants to know,

00:00:46   Jason, do you have a second refrigerator in your garage?

00:00:49   - It is a strange, did I, you know, Myke,

00:00:55   you know more than anyone.

00:00:56   We talk on podcasts a lot.

00:00:58   And you don't always remember what stories you've told, what things you've disclosed.

00:01:04   So I'm gonna just, I don't know why Brance is asking this.

00:01:09   The answer is no.

00:01:13   I did.

00:01:17   So Jamie took a friend's refrigerator, a little tiny mini refrigerator, to college her freshman

00:01:28   year and then her sophomore year she was in an apartment didn't need it so she

00:01:33   brought it back and it sat in our garage and at some point I plugged it in and I

00:01:38   used it as like the I tried to use it as like an auxiliary like soda and beer

00:01:44   storage thing because our you know to fit more stuff in the fridge so you're

00:01:50   like oh no we're out of beer in the fridge it's like aha there's backup beer

00:01:53   right or the backup soda great I did that for a little while but it turns out

00:01:58   that I didn't use it consistently and it was just sitting there, you know, wasting power.

00:02:02   So eventually I decommissioned it. And then now Julian is in the dorm and he has that

00:02:09   refrigerator so it is it has moved on to the next child. And so there's probably who knows

00:02:15   what dorm stuff is in there now, but that means it's not here and when he stops using

00:02:22   it I suspect we will give it away and not bring it back. Yeah, fill up my already very

00:02:27   crowded garage full of garbage. I feel like at that point you would just get a new small

00:02:33   fridge right then like keep moving this fridge hundreds of miles. Yeah probably and it seems

00:02:40   and it's just unnecessary because I can walk out my door to the refrigerator I can like

00:02:46   literally see the refrigerator from here because I'm podcasting with the door open today. It's

00:02:52   - Ooh.

00:02:53   - I know, it's risky, risky move.

00:02:56   And the, yeah, so, and that refrigerator is great.

00:03:01   And why would I not use it?

00:03:04   And I can just get up and go there.

00:03:05   It might've been different if it was far away.

00:03:08   I have some friends who work in a detached space

00:03:12   and they have to go inside and it's like, well, okay,

00:03:14   maybe I could see having a little refrigerator

00:03:17   like back when this, I didn't have a door into my house.

00:03:20   So I would have to go outside and unlock my front door

00:03:22   and go into my house in order to get anything,

00:03:25   but that's just not the case now.

00:03:26   So it just seems like a waste of space and energy.

00:03:31   So we don't.

00:03:31   - If you would like to send in a question of your own,

00:03:35   just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snow Talk.

00:03:37   Use question mark Snow Talk in the Relay FM members Discord

00:03:40   and maybe you can get a very specific answer

00:03:43   of the layout of it.

00:03:44   Do you think Brantz is planning a heist?

00:03:47   I worry that Brant's, like the calls coming from inside the house a little bit.

00:03:54   I'm also concerned that Brant's might need a refrigerator.

00:03:58   Maybe Brant's is a refrigerator.

00:04:00   Or a refrigerator salesman.

00:04:03   Have you heard of the good news about refrigerators in your garage?

00:04:06   I don't know what Brant's is up to here, but that's the answer is that there was a, it

00:04:11   was, it was, it was Jamie's friend Bastian.

00:04:14   Hi Bastian.

00:04:15   He doesn't listen.

00:04:16   Although I think he has.

00:04:18   And he let Jamie have it and then it sat here for a couple of years and now Julian's got

00:04:24   it.

00:04:25   And I don't think it's ever coming back because I don't want to haul it back here, quite frankly.

00:04:29   So yeah, that's where we are with the mystery of the legend of the second refrigerator.

00:04:34   So I'm back now.

00:04:38   I very much enjoyed the last couple of episodes with the Johns.

00:04:43   Do you have an out of body experience when you're listening to Upgrade and you're not

00:04:45   Well, I mean, you also were on it. You introduced it and read some ads.

00:04:49   That was weird to me when I was listening back. I will say that.

00:04:52   But I did like the idea. That was your idea that I would just do a little intro.

00:04:56   Introduce the show.

00:04:58   Which I was thinking two things. Maybe it's fun for you, because it's like, you know,

00:05:02   it makes you feel like a letterman type, right? Someone's introducing.

00:05:05   But then also I thought weird for the guests, because I guess you started the recording

00:05:09   of each episode with "Thank you, Myke."

00:05:11   And they're like, "Well, he's not here."

00:05:13   Yeah.

00:05:14   Yeah, I think they rolled with it. I think they know showbiz. It's post-production, we're

00:05:21   gonna fix that in post. But yeah, it was a fun thing. I feel like it's maybe a little

00:05:25   less jarring to have it be like, you know, you with the From Relay FM and all of that.

00:05:31   I also got some feedback about they were dis- people were disconcerted that it wasn't my

00:05:34   weird messed up version of the theme song fade-outs and all of that. And I pointed out

00:05:41   that now that our friend Jim Metzendorf edits the podcast, he just does it the mic way every

00:05:45   time. Jim does it the correct way. Jim uses the right music. You know, I was thinking,

00:05:50   I was like, is Jason us? I could have gone behind the scenes and like your connected

00:05:54   hosts I could have betrayed you and demanded that Jim do a different intro, but I didn't

00:06:01   even think of it quite honestly. I was just more concerned in recording the episodes and

00:06:06   getting them out. And we did those live at our usual recording time and streamed them

00:06:10   live on relay, which was also not a thing.

00:06:12   Back when John Siracusa had a job,

00:06:14   I had to record those episodes on like Sunday afternoon.

00:06:17   So it was kind of nice to do it at the usual time.

00:06:20   And I think I had to get John Gruber up early, you know,

00:06:23   'cause he had to make it by noon Eastern.

00:06:26   - But yeah, I really loved the episodes.

00:06:28   Thank you to the Johns for filling in on my behalf.

00:06:31   - Yeah, that was fun.

00:06:32   - It was really good.

00:06:33   - Always nice to have a change of pace

00:06:34   and get those guys talking about stuff

00:06:37   they don't necessarily talk about on their other podcasts.

00:06:39   - Yeah, it was good.

00:06:40   How was your trip?

00:06:42   - Oh, my trip was wonderful.

00:06:44   I had a great time, very relaxing, very fun.

00:06:48   It ended up being exactly the trip

00:06:51   that I was hoping for, really.

00:06:53   So I've come back feeling refreshed.

00:06:55   I've drawn a line in the sand

00:06:58   for all of the horrors of buying the home,

00:07:00   which is what I was, right?

00:07:02   So it's like, okay, all of that happened.

00:07:04   That's all in the past now.

00:07:06   Vacation was the barrier to now coming back

00:07:08   and continuing forward.

00:07:09   - That's good, you know, I had that moment,

00:07:11   I was loading a couple of dishes in the dishwasher yesterday

00:07:14   and I thought to myself, you know, at some point

00:07:16   I finally did let go of the fact that I got extremely upset

00:07:21   by the act of purchasing this dishwasher

00:07:25   and I'm over it now and it feels good to put it in the past

00:07:28   and just be done with it.

00:07:29   - I believe that the dishwasher story

00:07:31   was an upgrade plus story.

00:07:33   - I think so, I got very angry,

00:07:35   they tried to deliver it five times.

00:07:36   Anyway, now it's just a dishwasher, I don't think about it.

00:07:39   If sometimes you want to hear Jason get mad about dishwashers,

00:07:44   you should sign up for UpgradePlus. Go to getupgradeplus.com.

00:07:47   Oh boy.

00:07:48   It's just $5 a month or $50 a year.

00:07:50   But until December 17th, this is the last time we're going to be able to tell you this.

00:07:55   You can get 20% off a plan if you sign up for a year.

00:07:58   So an annual plan, you'll get 20% off the first year.

00:08:00   So you go to giverelay.com where you can learn more.

00:08:03   But if you just use the code 2023holidays at checkout,

00:08:07   you will get 20% off that first year.

00:08:10   And that's, so you can go to getupgradeplus.com

00:08:12   to sign up for this show.

00:08:13   I'm gonna appreciate it.

00:08:14   We're working on some things for next year,

00:08:16   some content stuff that we're both pretty excited about.

00:08:19   We enjoy Upgrade Plus and we think that you will too.

00:08:22   So talking about content, just as a reminder to people,

00:08:26   the voting for the Upgradies,

00:08:28   the ninth annual Upgradies has now closed.

00:08:31   And I tabulated the whole thing today, Jason.

00:08:33   I got a chair and it's ready.

00:08:36   And I will say that there is some interesting results

00:08:40   from the upgrade-ians from the nominations,

00:08:44   and it helped me kind of finalize some of mine.

00:08:48   The ninth annual upgrade-ies will be released

00:08:50   on December 26th, so it's gonna be a little boxing day

00:08:53   present for all of you, from us.

00:08:55   - That's right, and we're pre-recording that,

00:08:57   so send that over. (laughs)

00:09:00   - Then you won't. - Send over that information.

00:09:02   I gotta spend some time this week thinking about.

00:09:05   I'll have it in our document tomorrow.

00:09:07   I didn't want to put in a document today

00:09:09   because it's not today's episode, you know?

00:09:11   - Also, and I know this is a little behind the scenes,

00:09:14   but I think we need to tell people,

00:09:17   we are moving house in terms of making a new Google Doc

00:09:21   for the show because we broke Google Docs.

00:09:24   - Yes.

00:09:25   - On the iPad at least.

00:09:27   - No, it's on the iPhone too.

00:09:28   - Oh, on the iPhone, sure.

00:09:29   - We've been using the same Google Doc

00:09:31   for many, many, many, many years.

00:09:33   We just remove what's in the document each week

00:09:35   and just redo it.

00:09:36   And the Google Docs app now on my phone

00:09:41   will crash every single time I open the document.

00:09:44   So I don't know if you've tried this, Jason.

00:09:47   Do you even have the Google Docs app on your phone?

00:09:50   - No.

00:09:51   - It's not a surprise to me, I think.

00:09:53   - No, not interested.

00:09:55   - But it is a instant crash for me.

00:09:57   - Yeah, so we're gonna move and that'll be like,

00:10:02   I guess the, well, maybe the upgrade is will be

00:10:05   in its own document too, who knows,

00:10:06   but we're gonna, it's a good time.

00:10:08   We're refreshing here for 2023, getting it ready.

00:10:13   But all my little shortcuts where I have to like

00:10:16   press buttons or launch things or use a launch bar shortcut

00:10:19   or all that to get to the upgrade document,

00:10:21   you're gonna have to change all of those.

00:10:22   - All gonna have to change.

00:10:24   I have some of those too, it's all gonna change.

00:10:26   Just notice friend of the show, Zach Knox appeared

00:10:29   in the document real quick.

00:10:30   I don't know if you saw that.

00:10:31   I saw you, Zach.

00:10:32   - I didn't.

00:10:33   Well, the most disturbing thing is that

00:10:36   John Syracuse is apparently still in the document,

00:10:38   having left, guess what, everybody?

00:10:41   He left a tab open.

00:10:43   - This is freaking me out.

00:10:45   John Syracuse has been in our document all day.

00:10:48   And also, so typically, if you are,

00:10:53   like if you have the document open,

00:10:55   but you're not looking at it, it grays you out, right?

00:10:59   But if you're active in the document,

00:11:01   you see a little color around the icon.

00:11:05   And John, it looks like John has been active

00:11:09   in the document all day, which has been very-

00:11:12   - His cursor is resting right next to the red circle

00:11:16   that says start recording when we start streaming.

00:11:18   His cursor rests there.

00:11:19   Character number one, the beginning of the document.

00:11:22   But he could flip in there and just like start typing

00:11:25   or delete our files or whatever every time if he wanted to.

00:11:30   So people may not know this or people may have forgotten this,

00:11:34   but I used to edit "Reconcilable Differences."

00:11:38   Way back in the beginning, I was the official editor

00:11:40   of the show.

00:11:41   I don't remember how many I did, but it was a lot

00:11:44   before it moved to Jim Mersendorf, who is now

00:11:47   the editor of this show, too.

00:11:49   And so I had access to--

00:11:51   I think still have access to-- the "Reconcilable Differences"

00:11:53   document.

00:11:55   And in that document, at the very top--

00:11:57   they've spoken about this on the show before.

00:11:58   they have the official cursor resting space, right?

00:12:01   - Yes.

00:12:01   - Where Jon wants people to put their cursors.

00:12:03   Now, I used to purposely put mine lower.

00:12:07   I used to just put it below.

00:12:10   It just felt like fun for me.

00:12:11   I never mentioned it, he never mentioned it to me,

00:12:13   but I used to put it there.

00:12:14   Oh, by the way, Jon Siracusa has now left

00:12:17   the document, everyone.

00:12:18   Jon Siracusa has now left.

00:12:20   I don't know if somebody has alerted him.

00:12:22   - Did we scare him out?

00:12:23   - I think finally we've gotten rid of him.

00:12:26   There's an important update, John has left the document.

00:12:30   - Well, I just removed access to John.

00:12:32   He's left his access to the document.

00:12:33   - Oh, (laughs)

00:12:34   that'll teach him.

00:12:35   That'll teach him.

00:12:36   Close your tab, John.

00:12:38   See, now he's gonna get a tab one day

00:12:40   and it's gonna be like, you're not allowed to be here

00:12:43   and he's not gonna know what it was.

00:12:44   - I've removed Stephen Hackett from the document too.

00:12:46   - Get that guy out of here.

00:12:48   - This is a great moment when we're about

00:12:50   to leave the document so it doesn't matter.

00:12:52   And it's like, get out everybody, get out.

00:12:53   We're tearing this building down.

00:12:55   It's unsafe, get out now.

00:12:57   - It's unsafe, you gotta leave Zach in here though

00:12:58   because he might need things to know.

00:13:00   - Yeah, I know.

00:13:01   - So let's actually get into some real news

00:13:06   and conversation.

00:13:07   We were talking about a bunch before my break

00:13:09   and also I think you were talking to John Gruber about this.

00:13:12   Apple's manufacturing diversification.

00:13:15   Looking at like, we've spoken about this before,

00:13:19   there's millions of iPhones that have been wanted

00:13:21   to be made but can't be made and it's going to impact Apple.

00:13:25   And the question is, what are they going to do going forward about this?

00:13:30   Like, is this going to change Apple's commitment to China?

00:13:33   You know, is this a good excuse for Apple to change its commitment to China?

00:13:38   Well, a few things have happened.

00:13:40   One, Tim Cook appeared at the tooling in ceremony for the new TSMC plant in Arizona

00:13:47   and spoke along with President Joe Biden about how Apple Silicon

00:13:52   chips will be made in the TSMC chip in Arizona in the coming years. What chips that will

00:13:58   be, we don't know. When they will actually be used in products, we don't know. But, you

00:14:03   know what this reminded me of? It reminded me a little bit of when he stood side by side

00:14:09   with Donald Trump and let Donald Trump say that he made the Mac Pro happen.

00:14:14   - Uh huh. Oh, it's, well, it's exactly the same, right? It's like, well, the president

00:14:18   is here and there are government somethings involved and isn't it great that we're here

00:14:24   in the USA and this is all part of the politics of being the CEO of Apple, right? Of like,

00:14:33   you're trying to deal with a lot of different powerful governments and government agencies

00:14:40   and you know, and trying to navigate all of that and so this is an example of that that

00:14:46   Apple is, you know, because Apple definitely gets that pressure from a lot of people in

00:14:51   the US about like, oh, but they make everything in China and it's an American company and

00:14:55   how can they abandon manufacturing? We know the history there and it's a lot more complicated

00:15:00   than that. And then you throw in the whole issue of diversification away from not just

00:15:06   China, but also feeling like all the high-end chips made in the world are made in Taiwan.

00:15:13   And that's a one, you know,

00:15:15   that's potentially dangerous too.

00:15:16   It's another all your eggs in one basket kind of situation.

00:15:20   So, but yeah, it sounds like this, you know,

00:15:22   Apple's only gonna get a third of the output

00:15:24   from this factory and it's unclear what process.

00:15:27   It sounds like they're gonna,

00:15:28   they originally said five nanometer,

00:15:29   but then it's gonna be four nanometer.

00:15:31   But like, by the time this factory comes online,

00:15:35   it's probably not gonna be making anything remotely

00:15:37   like the cutting edge designs that Apple uses

00:15:39   for its most important products.

00:15:41   So it's probably going to be making, you know,

00:15:45   legacy nodes, it's gonna be that kind of stuff, right?

00:15:47   It's gonna be older, the SE phone and older designs

00:15:52   that are still around and Apple TV chips

00:15:55   and stuff like that, yeah.

00:15:57   - But that's still something

00:16:00   and it's the start of something, right, potentially.

00:16:03   Moving on from that, to kind of talk about some

00:16:07   a little more, the Wall Street Journal is reporting

00:16:09   Apple is accelerating more plans to move manufacturing out of China and they're targeting India and

00:16:15   Vietnam.

00:16:17   And the way that I read in this article, and you quote with it, it was a little complicated

00:16:23   to tease out what they were trying to say, but it seems like they're also looking to

00:16:27   move to manufacturing companies that are not Foxconn as well, even if Foxconn has a presence

00:16:34   in other places.

00:16:37   Was that your reading of this too?

00:16:39   - I don't know, I mean, they mentioned Foxconn.

00:16:42   One of the interesting things about Foxconn

00:16:43   is it's a Taiwanese company,

00:16:45   but it does a lot of work in China

00:16:48   and has close ties to China as well.

00:16:50   Yes, it seems like what Apple is really trying to do

00:16:55   is diversify where it can.

00:16:58   It sounds like in some cases,

00:17:00   Foxconn is the vehicle for diversification, right?

00:17:02   Like can we, Foxconn has this factory that we use in China,

00:17:07   let's get Foxconn to be the ones to push into Vietnam and India.

00:17:12   Yeah, it's interesting and complicated.

00:17:16   Because this is the line I struggled with. It said like,

00:17:19   and looking to reduce dependence on Taiwanese assemblers led by Foxconn

00:17:24   technology group.

00:17:25   Yeah. Well, there you go.

00:17:27   So like I read that as less reliance on Foxconn,

00:17:31   which I also think is smart, right? I think we spoke about that before.

00:17:34   I remember seeing like, oh, Foxconn are gonna open a factory in another country

00:17:39   and Apple's gonna use that.

00:17:41   It's like, that's great, but it's still not fully diversified, right?

00:17:45   Like, you're making them somewhere else, but you're not protecting against government interventions

00:17:51   over certain companies and stuff like that.

00:17:53   So full diversification is gonna mean way more.

00:17:57   Like, and Apple's very diversified in its, I think we spoke about this in the past, right,

00:18:01   about where it's getting the parts from.

00:18:04   The parts for their devices come from all over the place.

00:18:08   The issue that they seem to be having

00:18:10   is where they're assembled.

00:18:11   The assembly is the problem,

00:18:13   because this stuff is so difficult to do

00:18:16   and seems to need so much human intervention,

00:18:19   way more it seems than I would expect

00:18:21   before I started learning more about this,

00:18:23   like how much is needed

00:18:24   for there to actually be humans in the process,

00:18:27   that they need to be able to have these large facilities

00:18:30   that are assembling the products

00:18:31   or overseeing the assembly of the product.

00:18:34   And it seems like at the moment

00:18:36   they're really just using Foxconn for that.

00:18:37   And that's not, it's just not smart on paper.

00:18:41   And it's kind of strange to me that like,

00:18:45   how long they have let it go this way,

00:18:48   because this is obviously a problem.

00:18:50   - Well, they're also using Pegatron, right?

00:18:55   Which is another Taiwanese company,

00:18:58   but they're using Pegatron and the iPhone 14 in India.

00:19:01   So there's that.

00:19:03   Like this is all, yeah, you know, this is a process,

00:19:07   this is the thing is it's a very complicated, expensive,

00:19:09   slow process that is now proceeding.

00:19:13   So that's, you know, that's really what's going on here

00:19:16   is they are very slowly trying to push,

00:19:19   'cause I think, yeah, I think they've recognized

00:19:22   that all of these, look, it's a part of Apple's philosophy

00:19:26   that they ignored for a long time

00:19:27   because it was so expedient for them, convenient to do so,

00:19:31   of saying we need to control all the things,

00:19:34   we need to not be reliant on a single anything

00:19:37   for something that's key to us.

00:19:38   And yet, in terms of production, which is certainly key,

00:19:42   Apple ended up in one company with,

00:19:45   sometimes in one region and sometimes with one company

00:19:48   that was managing the factories for them.

00:19:50   And that is counter to Apple's whole ethos about it.

00:19:54   They were like, oh, production doesn't count.

00:19:56   It's just components and software and design.

00:20:01   And this feels like Apple saying,

00:20:03   "No, production too, we need to not."

00:20:06   If they don't own the whole widget,

00:20:07   they at least need to not have one company that has,

00:20:10   or country that has complete control over their business

00:20:13   because that, like Apple, doesn't and shouldn't like that.

00:20:16   - So speaking of Foxconn, Foxconn have reported

00:20:21   that they are expecting that they will have

00:20:24   their main iPhone factory back to full production by the end of December or the start of January.

00:20:30   This is following the COVID shutdowns that they've had and then there were riots among

00:20:34   the workers due to the restrictions placed on them for lockdowns and that there were

00:20:39   frustrations over working conditions and bonus issues which Fox kind of said was an administrative

00:20:46   error and everyone's gotten their bonuses now. I'm sure they have after they started

00:20:50   rioting. So yeah, it's a mess for them right now. And I am really wondering at this point,

00:20:58   when actually will Apple be able to start satisfying demand for the iPhone 14, and how

00:21:04   big of an impact is this going to be for them? This is going to be a story that's going to

00:21:09   go on for a while, I think.

00:21:11   Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly when you start talking about, "Oh, we're going to be able

00:21:16   to get up to speed by the end of December, start in January, that is exiting the holiday

00:21:21   quarter, right? Which means that what they're sort of saying there is, you know, they're

00:21:26   priming the pump for Apple's statements in late January when they do their financial

00:21:33   results for their holiday quarter and the iPhone sales are way down from what anybody

00:21:38   expected that they're going to say, "Well, this is because of the factory and we couldn't

00:21:42   fulfill demand, but…" And then the next question is, "Is Tim Cook going to be able

00:21:46   to say, "But we are back up to speed now," or "We got back up to speed a couple weeks

00:21:51   ago," or "We expect to be back up to speed and have fulfilled all orders in the next

00:21:56   few weeks." And that's the question, but it seems to me that it's going to be in the damage

00:22:01   control of, you know, after they pick through the wreckage of the holiday corridor, to say,

00:22:08   "But it's, you know, but we fixed it." That's how, that's where this is now, right? Because

00:22:15   can't like this is happening now the holiday quarter is almost over this is

00:22:20   gonna be an issue and you know we don't know how much but you know six billion

00:22:25   I mean like it's gonna be a big issue and then the question is will they get

00:22:29   this in balance for next quarter or not you know I'm always looking looking

00:22:34   forward to earnings you know I look forward to it I'm really looking forward

00:22:36   to this next one I know like I'm just imagine those charts it's it's like a

00:22:41   month and a half away but just imagine those charts now they're gonna be so

00:22:44   interesting. I'm excited about that. Just get ready.

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00:24:54   and all of Relay FM. So some big news broke in the middle of last week Apple

00:25:01   had a press release for I feel like at this point iOS 16.2 is basically iOS 17

00:25:07   It has so many things in it, and things that as well,

00:25:12   that they have not mentioned before,

00:25:14   like that Apple Music Sing, like the karaoke mode.

00:25:17   So this is the first time we've heard of it.

00:25:18   Why is all this stuff happening?

00:25:19   But it is.

00:25:20   And 16.2 is bringing with it a selection of features.

00:25:24   One of them we'd heard about before,

00:25:26   but there was like three or four new things

00:25:28   around security, data protection, that kind of thing,

00:25:33   of you as an individual.

00:25:34   But the big thing that everyone's talking about

00:25:36   is a new feature called Advanced Data Protection,

00:25:40   which is essentially end-to-end encryption

00:25:43   for your iCloud account and all of the stuff

00:25:46   that would be stored within an iCloud backup, pretty much.

00:25:49   So in the past, we've spoken about this in this show before,

00:25:53   it's something that's been frustrating for me for a while,

00:25:56   and which is that you can,

00:25:59   Apple end-to-end encrypts a ton of stuff just by default.

00:26:04   So it's on your phone and the keys are stored on your device.

00:26:09   They can never access it.

00:26:11   That includes messages, unless you use iCloud backup,

00:26:15   which you should and everybody does.

00:26:18   And if you also use iCloud-- what is it called?

00:26:21   Messages in iCloud or something like that?

00:26:24   Messages in the cloud?

00:26:25   Yeah.

00:26:25   Then the information is available to law enforcement,

00:26:30   that kind of thing.

00:26:31   Or if people were to get access to your iCloud account,

00:26:33   they could see it, that kind of stuff, right?

00:26:35   Have I done a decent job of explaining that?

00:26:38   I don't think I feel like I have.

00:26:40   - It is, I mean, I don't think it's literally

00:26:43   everything they do, like mail calendars

00:26:46   and something else is not in there.

00:26:49   It's more, it's like nine more buckets

00:26:54   that are encrypted now, including messages, right?

00:27:03   that iMessage is just completely that way.

00:27:04   - iCloud Drive, Notes, Photos, Reminders, Safari Bookmarks,

00:27:08   Shortcuts, Voice Memo, Items, and Wallet Passes,

00:27:11   as well as Messages will be included

00:27:13   in Advanced Data Protection.

00:27:15   The important one here, I think, really is Messages, right?

00:27:18   Like, that your messages are yours, they are kept secure.

00:27:23   Of course, for a message conversation

00:27:26   to actually truly be end-to-end encrypted,

00:27:28   both people have to have turned on

00:27:30   Advanced Data Protection, right?

00:27:31   So like if me and you both have it on,

00:27:33   no one could ever get to our message.

00:27:35   But if I didn't and you did,

00:27:38   and someone wanted to subpoena Jason Snow,

00:27:43   then they could get that information potentially.

00:27:46   - So I just wanted, you mentioned messages in the cloud,

00:27:48   I wanted to mention.

00:27:49   Messages in the cloud is end-to-end encrypted.

00:27:53   But if you turn on iCloud backup,

00:27:56   not only are your messages backed up,

00:27:58   but the decryption key for messages in the cloud

00:28:01   is backed up, which gives you access.

00:28:03   So you were already able to make messages

00:28:06   completely unencrypted, but it was that same thing.

00:28:08   You have to turn out off iCloud backups in order to do it.

00:28:11   - That's like the special incantation.

00:28:12   - Right, 'cause the key to unlock them is in the backup.

00:28:16   And so it's not like, it's a little complicated,

00:28:19   but that's what it is.

00:28:19   And if you turn on this new advanced data protection thing,

00:28:22   then it is just because the backup is also encrypted,

00:28:24   it means that everything that could have the key

00:28:27   is encrypted and therefore it's end-to-end encrypted completely.

00:28:31   So if you have advanced data protection turned on, it means that Apple cannot look at your

00:28:38   data or provide your data to any outside entities. So this is like one of the big things, right?

00:28:45   So like...

00:28:46   It's the subpoena thing where it's like, well, you get a law enforcement agency gets a court

00:28:49   order to go to Apple and say, we need the records of this person. And Apple has to put

00:28:57   provide them with those records if they can.

00:29:00   And they've been able to do that

00:29:04   with things like the unencrypted iCloud backup,

00:29:07   which gives access to all of that.

00:29:08   If it's end to end encrypted

00:29:12   and Apple does not hold the keys, Apple can't do that.

00:29:16   That also means that Apple can't help you out

00:29:19   when you call and say, "Oh, I lost my password

00:29:22   and I can't get any of my photos."

00:29:24   and that leads to some other features that are in here.

00:29:27   But yeah, that's the idea is,

00:29:29   if the FBI comes to Apple and says, I want this,

00:29:31   Apple, if advanced data protection is turned on,

00:29:34   Apple will say, we can't provide that to you

00:29:36   because we actually don't hold the key to unlock that data.

00:29:40   We can give you the encrypted data, I guess,

00:29:42   but that's it, we can't decrypt it for you.

00:29:46   - I want to put a pin in that part

00:29:48   and come back to it in a minute,

00:29:49   'cause I just want to go through,

00:29:50   she said like the other thing that you mentioned.

00:29:52   So one of the reasons that apparently Apple's been resistant

00:29:55   to have end-to-end encryption is the customer support angle.

00:30:00   So if somebody loses the access to their devices

00:30:03   and forgets their iCloud password, in theory,

00:30:06   then they have lost all of their data,

00:30:08   all of their photos, their notes, right?

00:30:10   They've lost their messages, they've lost everything.

00:30:12   And that can be pretty catastrophic to someone.

00:30:15   So they're doing a couple of things.

00:30:16   One, advanced data protection is opt-in

00:30:18   and you have to read and agree to a bunch of scary warnings

00:30:21   where they are, and Craig Federighi did a short video

00:30:25   interview with Joanna Stern, people should go watch that,

00:30:27   it was very interesting, and he referenced it

00:30:30   as like the responsibility, like it's added responsibility

00:30:34   for you and potentially somebody else in your life

00:30:37   as they've created, like they wanna basically force you

00:30:40   into doing one of a couple of different things.

00:30:43   One is to print out or like take note of this very long code

00:30:48   or recovery code, you know, I would get it,

00:30:50   put it in one password or something,

00:30:51   and/or create a recovery contact.

00:30:55   So for example, I could set Jason as my recovery contact,

00:30:59   and if I lost all of my access,

00:31:01   I can ask it to contact my recovery contact.

00:31:03   It will send Jason a code,

00:31:05   and then it gives some instructions

00:31:06   that he would then go through with me

00:31:07   to help me get my account back.

00:31:09   This is smart, right?

00:31:10   Like this is the way to do it if you're gonna do it,

00:31:12   and also to make sure that if you don't add this,

00:31:15   we're not gonna let you put it on,

00:31:16   I think is probably the way to go.

00:31:18   - Right.

00:31:19   I don't know exactly technically what's happening with that,

00:31:21   but my guess is that Apple has a portion

00:31:26   of the decryption key,

00:31:30   but not, either Apple has

00:31:33   or the person you share it with has it.

00:31:36   But my guess is that Apple has a portion of it,

00:31:39   and then a portion of it is placed in the person.

00:31:43   - Well, I just assumed that this was just like a code

00:31:48   that you needed to access the password reset field

00:31:52   or something like that.

00:31:53   That's how I'd assumed it was.

00:31:55   - Yeah, but you gotta be able to decrypt the data.

00:31:59   If the data is decrypted, you can reset the password,

00:32:01   but how do you get to the decryption key, right?

00:32:06   And this is actually one of the things

00:32:08   that struck me about this

00:32:09   that I think is worth diving into.

00:32:11   And I don't, like I said,

00:32:13   maybe there's something written about this.

00:32:14   I haven't seen it.

00:32:15   but having that other person is a potential weakness

00:32:20   in this, right?

00:32:24   If you're afraid that a state actor is coming to get you,

00:32:27   you probably, my guess is you would use

00:32:31   that long decryption code that you have

00:32:33   in a very, very safe place.

00:32:34   - Or the physical key thing, right?

00:32:36   You could also use that, which they added support for.

00:32:39   - Right, but like this is the challenge there

00:32:43   is that you have a backup

00:32:45   and one of your backups is a person.

00:32:48   If that person is not using the system, right?

00:32:51   Like, okay, does Apple have access

00:32:54   to the information in their backup

00:32:56   that would give them access?

00:32:58   And it sounds like,

00:33:00   I don't know that there's a collaboration going on here.

00:33:02   I'm sure that Apple has thought this through,

00:33:04   but it is just, it's a little bit like saying,

00:33:07   well, we're doing two factor,

00:33:08   but we're putting it in a text message, right?

00:33:10   It's like, well, the text message could get intercepted,

00:33:12   That is, your alternate method has to also be secure.

00:33:17   So I think that that's a question

00:33:19   that I don't know the answer to,

00:33:22   but it's a nice idea that is like,

00:33:24   especially for consumer type people

00:33:27   or people who wanna do this,

00:33:28   but are not at the level of being a dissident

00:33:32   or a journalist or something like that,

00:33:34   is saying, "Well, I wanna turn this feature on anyway,

00:33:38   and I'm gonna turn it on and give it to my pal.

00:33:41   and my pal is gonna turn it on and give it to me,

00:33:43   and then we're our backup contacts.

00:33:46   And that's probably enough for anybody,

00:33:49   but at the highest levels of security.

00:33:51   - So it's gonna be available in the US by the end of 2022,

00:33:56   and is gonna be available outside the US later in 2023.

00:34:01   And then at some point, and it seems the rest of the world,

00:34:08   we'll see what countries it is or isn't in, right?

00:34:11   and I'm going to be intrigued to see.

00:34:13   When pressed by Joanna Stern,

00:34:15   Craig was like, about China, was like,

00:34:17   "They haven't told us it can't be," or whatever.

00:34:19   As far as I'm aware, it's okay.

00:34:21   And I'm intrigued.

00:34:23   That was an interesting answer.

00:34:25   I will be really intrigued to see what happens

00:34:27   because everybody, you may not know,

00:34:29   but we spoke about it a bunch.

00:34:31   The iCloud servers for China are in China.

00:34:33   They're operated there.

00:34:35   This is the thing that doesn't happen

00:34:37   in other countries where it's mandated

00:34:39   mandated that it must be. So I'm very intrigued to see about the way that that ends up going

00:34:44   down.

00:34:45   Right, because all it really takes is for China to pass a new law that says no encryption

00:34:52   for stuff stored on cloud or something, right? Like that's all they really need to do. And

00:34:58   then they're like, "Apple, you have to follow our laws. You can't have this feature in China.

00:35:03   We've outlawed this feature in China."

00:35:05   And that's interesting, right? If that happens, so let's imagine that the American government

00:35:08   does this, right? We'll just purely hypotheticalize it. What then happens to this feature? Like

00:35:17   if you've turned it on and then in three years time it's now illegal and to end encryption

00:35:23   is illegal, is there anything that realistically can be done at that point? Like you've turned

00:35:28   it on.

00:35:29   Well yeah, I mean Apple could force a software update that turns it off.

00:35:35   Because this is the thing, right? Apple are now, and I'm sure this is one of the other reasons that they've not done this before,

00:35:42   and I'm intrigued, I'm really intrigued as to why now, like about this, but this is going to upset a lot of nations, right?

00:35:50   Yeah.

00:35:52   It shouldn't, but it's going to. I think it's going to upset, I mean probably every government in the world, honestly.

00:35:58   Like, it's probably there is going to be some part of each government that's going to be

00:36:02   annoyed about this in some way or law enforcement.

00:36:04   Well, especially if you define the government there as you talk about the law enforcement

00:36:07   entities in those organizations, right?

00:36:09   Because the truth is every law enforcement organization will complain whenever there

00:36:14   is any reduction in the number of techniques that they have to get what they want, right?

00:36:21   Like that is, and I always say this, but like this goes back to the Miranda warning that

00:36:25   we've seen in every detective and cop show ever on TV in our lifetimes. When that came

00:36:30   in in 1971, 70, something like that, 50 or more years ago, everybody was like, "Oh, cops

00:36:37   are never going to be able to interrogate anyone or arrest anyone." It wasn't true.

00:36:42   They just had to read them their rights. But they fought it because they're like, "No,

00:36:46   no. We don't want them to know their rights." And this is a little like that where it's

00:36:50   They will never, it's not the job of the police to say, "No, no, we don't want this."

00:36:55   It is the job of the rest of the lawmakers, essentially, to say what the rules are there.

00:37:01   And I think that's the question worldwide, as you point out, which is, is end-to-end

00:37:07   encryption, so there's no way to have it be retrieved under a court order or something,

00:37:15   something that could be made illegal?

00:37:18   And if it is, what does Apple do?

00:37:19   And I think the answer is probably that in countries

00:37:22   where it's illegal, Apple turns this feature off.

00:37:24   I think that's what it means.

00:37:26   - 'Cause what else realistically can they do,

00:37:29   I guess, in that situation, right?

00:37:31   Does, you have to, I guess, if they wanna operate

00:37:35   in a certain country, they have to abide by its laws,

00:37:37   which is why there'll be USB-C and iPhones, right?

00:37:40   Because what are they gonna do?

00:37:43   - Are we gonna do a real-time follow-up now

00:37:45   so people don't email us?

00:37:47   - I mean, it's probably too late,

00:37:48   but Zach has given us a link in the Discord

00:37:52   to an Apple support document.

00:37:54   - It's what I said, which is Apple keeps part of it,

00:37:56   and part of it is--

00:37:57   - The recovery contact, we're talking about

00:37:58   the recovery contact. - Yes, it is, yeah.

00:38:00   Apple keeps part of it,

00:38:01   and part of it goes to the recovery contact.

00:38:03   And so Apple could be subpoenaed,

00:38:05   but the recovery contact also has it.

00:38:08   - Well, it's a different key.

00:38:09   So, I'm gonna read.

00:38:10   When a user sets up a recovery contact,

00:38:13   the key to access the user's data,

00:38:14   including end-to-end encrypted CloudKit data,

00:38:17   is encrypted with a random key that is then split

00:38:20   between the recovery contact and Apple.

00:38:22   At recovery time, only when the two are recombined

00:38:24   can the original key be recovered and their data accessed.

00:38:28   - Right, so my only question is where is that key stored

00:38:30   and is that also encrypted?

00:38:32   I assume it is.

00:38:34   - Let's assume yes, I think we could probably assume yes.

00:38:36   - Yeah, right.

00:38:37   - Like, 'cause really, this whole advanced

00:38:41   data protection thing, it feels to me like,

00:38:44   "Hey, we're gonna do this seriously now."

00:38:47   Where in the past it's been a little bit like,

00:38:50   "Yeah, but you kind of,"

00:38:51   like as we said earlier, right?

00:38:53   "You are into end encrypted in some instances

00:38:56   "and some stuff is unless you do this."

00:38:59   But it doesn't feel like that now.

00:39:00   This to me feels very much like,

00:39:03   for some reason they have decided

00:39:05   that now is the time that they're going to pull the trigger

00:39:07   and just do this whole thing.

00:39:09   - Yeah.

00:39:10   - But I am really intrigued about,

00:39:13   you were saying about law enforcement agencies, right?

00:39:16   And we remember the San Bernardino case.

00:39:19   It was a, you know, there was a FBI needed Apple

00:39:24   to unlock a phone because of a shooting,

00:39:27   and they had the phone of the people,

00:39:29   and they wanted to get it so they could find out

00:39:31   what was going on, and Apple wouldn't do it.

00:39:33   Couldn't do it, wouldn't do it,

00:39:35   and wouldn't do what the FBI wanted them to do,

00:39:38   which was to create basically a backdoor into iOS

00:39:41   to allow them to get that data.

00:39:43   - Yeah, a special version of iOS that they could put on it

00:39:46   that would, yeah, exactly.

00:39:48   - So the thing at the time was,

00:39:51   Apple were being roasted in the media, right,

00:39:55   of supporting terrorism, basically.

00:39:58   It is only a matter of time now until this happens again,

00:40:01   because they've set up this feature.

00:40:03   What do you think about this?

00:40:09   I mean, I feel like there are going to be places where it is outlawed and there are

00:40:16   going to be places where it's not because it's going to be debated and not...

00:40:21   And like in the US, it's possible that they might outlaw something like this.

00:40:26   But I think the truth is that, you know, when I talk about Miranda as an example, it's because

00:40:31   it all went okay.

00:40:33   What happened in the San Bernardino case is they bought some off-the-shelf software that

00:40:37   that used a security hole to unlock the phone.

00:40:40   - Yeah.

00:40:41   - And Apple tries to close those security holes too.

00:40:44   And that's a whole other story where they're like,

00:40:46   how dare they fix the security?

00:40:48   And Apple's statement there is always very strong,

00:40:50   which is if good guys can use the security hole,

00:40:53   bad guys also can use the security hole

00:40:56   and we protect our customers from bad guys.

00:40:58   So we close all the security holes.

00:41:00   That's our goal.

00:41:01   But they're always gonna be probably some that exist.

00:41:05   That's just sort of the nature of the complex systems here.

00:41:07   So, you know, there'll be lots of talk about it, and I think in certain places there will

00:41:13   be action, but in a place like the US where there's a lot of, you know, you would need

00:41:20   a lot of political will, and there are, you know, things like right to privacy and the

00:41:25   Constitution, right, like, it might be harder to make that sort of sweeping statement, but

00:41:31   in China it won't be.

00:41:32   And you know, because as well they're also introduced in the lockdown mode, right?

00:41:36   And this is for, I mean it's created, we spoke about this before, created for people that are potential targets of state interference.

00:41:43   But anyone can turn it on and it essentially limits how an iPhone talks to the web to thwart backdoor attempts to protect against these kinds of software, right?

00:41:53   Like the Pegasus software and stuff like that.

00:41:55   So like the combination of advanced security, advanced data protection and lockdown mode,

00:42:02   like that phone is in a Faraday cage as much as Apple can make it, right?

00:42:07   And so it's, I would just say, I mean, I don't want anyone to misunderstand me.

00:42:16   I am very happy that they have done this. I think they should do this.

00:42:19   I have wanted this for myself and I'm going to turn it on as soon as I get access to it.

00:42:24   I'm just intrigued about Apple having done this with all of the potential problems that they could get themselves into for it.

00:42:32   Right, it's all the reasons that we said that they probably wouldn't do this or they might not do this, even though we wanted them to do it,

00:42:38   was that they were going to end up putting themselves up against a lot of people in a lot of governments all around the world and a lot of law enforcement

00:42:47   who have come to rely on subpoena, well,

00:42:51   and let's just back up a point.

00:42:53   What we're saying here is that technology changed the game

00:42:56   in terms of law enforcement in a few ways.

00:42:59   Yes, it is used, it can be used by criminals

00:43:02   to commit crimes and you can have a burner phone

00:43:05   or you can have encrypted messages that they can't get to.

00:43:07   But like the big picture is also that we put all

00:43:12   of our key information on a device

00:43:14   and the device is something we carry around with us.

00:43:17   And it used to be, and a lot of the laws are written

00:43:20   in the constitution and all sorts of things

00:43:23   that in the US at least,

00:43:25   there is what's in your mind, it's not subpoenaable,

00:43:29   there's the stuff that's in your house,

00:43:31   which is subpoenaable, but you have to actually get it.

00:43:34   The things you carry on your phone out in public

00:43:37   do not have the same protection

00:43:40   as the things that are in your house,

00:43:42   which do not have the same protection

00:43:43   as the things that are in your brain, right?

00:43:45   Like there's a change there where the phone

00:43:49   is like a loophole where it's like, aha,

00:43:51   you carry that out in the world and we can get it

00:43:53   and we can look at it.

00:43:55   And cloud services are like that too, right?

00:43:57   We move to the cloud and now your personal information

00:43:59   is suddenly not on your person or in your brain,

00:44:03   but it's in some company's data center unencrypted

00:44:08   or encrypted and they have the key.

00:44:11   And it's a loophole for them.

00:44:14   It is a tool they can use where they're like,

00:44:16   "Oh, now all that stuff that would have been committed

00:44:19   "to memory or written down on a piece of paper,

00:44:21   "somewhere locked up is now just in this place

00:44:25   "where we can just get a subpoena and take it."

00:44:28   And so they've benefited greatly from that.

00:44:31   But I would argue, and I think Apple would argue,

00:44:33   that that was a function of the early days of the cloud.

00:44:37   And that the direction this is all going is back toward,

00:44:41   if it's your personal data,

00:44:43   you should hold the key to it.

00:44:45   And that is what Apple's trying to do,

00:44:51   is say, look, it was a function of the development of this,

00:44:56   that for a while there was unencrypted stuff

00:45:00   or stuff that was encrypted

00:45:01   and the cloud provider held the key.

00:45:04   But that's not how in the grand scheme of things,

00:45:07   somebody's personal information should

00:45:09   or has ever really worked.

00:45:11   and we don't want to hold the key.

00:45:15   And we don't believe, Apple would say,

00:45:16   we don't believe that any big tech company

00:45:19   should hold the key to their customer's personal information

00:45:22   that the customer should, right?

00:45:25   And I think they're absolutely 100% right about that.

00:45:29   You know, that's not gonna make people

00:45:30   in law enforcement very happy,

00:45:33   but I think that that's the fact.

00:45:35   And the challenge is that I can say that,

00:45:37   and I can say that I think that there's a lot of history

00:45:40   law in the United States that supports that, but it's one act of Congress like back after

00:45:52   9/11 where they suddenly were like, "Oh no, we need to make a whole bunch of stuff illegal,"

00:45:57   and one step like that. Or we live in an era now where I have to say, "Or a Supreme Court

00:46:03   ruling that goes against all sorts of established law because they've decided that they want

00:46:09   to be different. And that's all it will take in the US for something like that to happen.

00:46:14   But I do think Apple is doing the right thing. And I think it's interesting because they

00:46:18   have to know all of the crap that is going to come down on them. It's inevitable, right?

00:46:25   In a place like China or other authoritarian countries, it may just be as simple as you

00:46:29   can't do that here. And in a place like the US, it starts with a crime being committed.

00:46:34   and then somebody from the FBI walking out and saying,

00:46:37   "Apple is the reason that we can't investigate this

00:46:40   "because they've chosen to harbor the secrets of criminals

00:46:45   "without any access for law enforcement."

00:46:47   And we've been through that before.

00:46:49   But I think it's still the right thing for them to do.

00:46:54   And I think they will probably be forced in some markets

00:46:57   to just turn this stuff off.

00:46:58   But part of me thinks that the strategy here is,

00:47:03   Apple wants to be in the place where Apple has done

00:47:05   everything that it can to ensure the privacy

00:47:09   of the data of its users.

00:47:10   And that if that privacy is taken away,

00:47:14   it's because it's been taken away by a government

00:47:16   or basically by a government, by a law, by something.

00:47:21   And it allows Apple to say, "It's not us.

00:47:24   We're not conspiring to take away your privacy.

00:47:28   Your government has forced us to."

00:47:31   and now people can roll their eyes at that and be like,

00:47:33   "Oh, well, yeah, you're just complying."

00:47:35   Like that always is what happens with Apple and China,

00:47:37   right, is that Apple complies with China's restrictive laws

00:47:40   and then everybody says, "Well, you should just leave China,"

00:47:42   which we know they can't do.

00:47:44   And Apple's policy has always been like,

00:47:46   "We comply with the laws."

00:47:47   So like when they were in Russia, they're like,

00:47:49   "We're gonna suggest the apps that the Russian government

00:47:52   "passed a law saying that we have to give to you."

00:47:54   - Or we're gonna change the emoji or whatever.

00:47:56   - Exactly right.

00:47:57   And that has been, so that, and you don't have to like it,

00:48:00   But I feel like that is Apple's base strategy is,

00:48:03   let's come out and say,

00:48:05   we have the capability to do the right thing.

00:48:07   And if we aren't allowed to do the right thing,

00:48:10   it's because somebody forced us, right?

00:48:13   That's the answer there.

00:48:14   And then people will still complain and be like,

00:48:15   well, you should just leave that country.

00:48:17   Okay, but they're probably not gonna do that in most cases.

00:48:20   They did in Russia.

00:48:21   They're probably not gonna do that in China.

00:48:23   But it does put them on the side of like,

00:48:25   well, we tried to do the right thing.

00:48:28   and then the bad people made us not.

00:48:31   - Yeah, you're mentioning about like,

00:48:33   all it takes is one rule change,

00:48:36   all it takes is one Supreme Court ruling,

00:48:38   all it takes is one rule change in any country

00:48:41   to get this stuff taken away.

00:48:43   Isn't there a possibility that it,

00:48:46   but in doing this, Apple makes it more like,

00:48:49   it is more likely that this will happen in more countries?

00:48:53   Just like the mere act of Apple creating this feature

00:48:57   accelerates the risk of end-to-end encryption

00:49:02   being made illegal because now every iPhone in the world

00:49:07   can have full end-to-end encryption.

00:49:09   - Yeah, yes, but I think,

00:49:14   yes, but do you want to be,

00:49:19   do you want to go on having your people believe

00:49:24   that things are secure, many of which are not?

00:49:26   - Mm-hmm, this is the right thing to do.

00:49:29   I'd just like to think through the possibilities.

00:49:31   - Well, no, 'cause I get the big picture here,

00:49:33   which might be like, Apple does this,

00:49:36   and the net result is that signal was outlawed, right?

00:49:39   Like right now we live in,

00:49:41   you talk about your various kind of weird things

00:49:43   that are based on the progression of technology.

00:49:45   And one of them is you put things on the cloud

00:49:47   and they aren't encrypted on the cloud,

00:49:49   and now they, and they should be, but they weren't.

00:49:51   And now we're trying to get there and it's a controversy.

00:49:54   Well, one of the places we've gotten to is

00:49:57   a lot of these major platforms like Apple's

00:50:00   don't have all the encryption everywhere.

00:50:02   And as a result, there are a bunch of third-party services

00:50:05   like Signal that have sprouted up

00:50:08   that are able to do complete end-to-end encryption.

00:50:11   Like that's their whole thing.

00:50:13   And they're able to do that.

00:50:14   And maybe the heat is not on them as much as it would be

00:50:18   because they're the fallback

00:50:21   and the eyes of the world are on the big companies

00:50:25   and the defaults like iMessage, right?

00:50:28   And by doing this, if Apple prompts

00:50:32   more anti-encryption policies,

00:50:36   it could make it bad for everybody

00:50:38   who is doing end-to-end encryption.

00:50:39   That's absolutely the case.

00:50:41   But if you're Apple, I think what you think is,

00:50:45   Apple has so many more customers than Signal does.

00:50:48   and Apple feels like there's a fundamental benefit to,

00:50:53   right, it's the idea of if you lock it all down

00:50:58   and you don't even think about it,

00:51:00   then everybody is protected

00:51:02   and that there's value in that.

00:51:04   However, I'll also point out this feature is off by default

00:51:08   for lots of decent reasons,

00:51:10   but I feel like that's Apple's one hedge here,

00:51:16   is well, it's a feature you can turn off

00:51:19   and you have to turn it on.

00:51:20   You have to want to turn it on

00:51:21   and most people won't turn it on.

00:51:23   And I do kind of wonder if Apple's gonna,

00:51:25   when this comes out, Apple's gonna say,

00:51:27   "Well, you know, people have to choose to turn it on."

00:51:30   They could force it, right?

00:51:32   They could do what they've done with two-factor,

00:51:34   which is make it extremely uncomfortable

00:51:37   to not have two-factor authentication turned on

00:51:39   on Apple devices, right?

00:51:40   They made that choice.

00:51:42   They could do that with this, but they haven't.

00:51:44   Maybe they will one day, who knows?

00:51:47   I mean, it seems unlikely, but maybe they will.

00:51:50   - Maybe.

00:51:51   - In part of talking about this,

00:51:52   Craig Federighi confirmed to Joanna Stern

00:51:55   that they have abandoned their previous plans

00:51:57   for on-device scanning of child sexual abuse material,

00:52:00   the CSAM stuff.

00:52:01   - Yeah.

00:52:02   - They didn't give any more details,

00:52:03   like what are they gonna do then?

00:52:05   But that whole plan of the on-device scanning

00:52:10   that we spent a bunch of time talking about,

00:52:13   Was that last year or was that this year?

00:52:15   It wasn't this year, was it?

00:52:16   I think it was last year.

00:52:17   - Yeah, maybe so. - I think it was 2021.

00:52:19   That entire program has gone, just gone.

00:52:23   - Yeah, it was last year.

00:52:25   I'm sure it was one of those upgrade-y, bad story things.

00:52:27   - Which is the right thing for them to do

00:52:29   'cause that was a bad idea.

00:52:30   - Yeah, but this is another case

00:52:32   where they're going to put themselves in,

00:52:34   they're making a target of themselves

00:52:37   because people are gonna be able to say

00:52:40   that Apple has now no facility to scan for those images,

00:52:45   right?

00:52:46   Like they're all the photos are encrypted on the server.

00:52:49   And if they're all encrypted on the server,

00:52:52   Apple can't scan them.

00:52:54   And Apple's not intercepting them at upload

00:52:56   because they're encrypted.

00:52:58   And they're not doing the thing

00:52:59   where they intercept them on your phone

00:53:01   because everybody said, "Well, wait a second.

00:53:02   "Now my phone is spying on me."

00:53:04   And so it's going to hasten the spread of this material.

00:53:08   That will be the argument.

00:53:09   - See, 'cause then I would assume, right,

00:53:11   that Apple will have to do what other tech companies

00:53:15   are doing if they're gonna do something,

00:53:16   which I think they have to,

00:53:18   which is to do scanning in the cloud.

00:53:20   But then they can't do that. - They can't.

00:53:24   - With advanced data protection is turned on.

00:53:26   - Right.

00:53:27   - So, they've put themselves,

00:53:31   Apple have put themselves into

00:53:32   a very complicated corners with this.

00:53:35   - And again, I wonder if the strategy here is

00:53:38   you're gonna have to make us do it.

00:53:40   It's not quite don't throw me in the briar patch,

00:53:43   but it's a little like that, right?

00:53:44   It's this, oh no, I don't know if they want it,

00:53:48   but I think that it's like, if you're gonna do it,

00:53:50   you're gonna have to force me, right?

00:53:52   Like, we're not gonna choose to do this,

00:53:55   but if you make us do it, we'll do it,

00:53:57   because then it's not us making the decision

00:53:59   and our hands are tied.

00:54:01   And that like, if our commitment to privacy

00:54:04   of our users is paramount, let's just fully commit to it

00:54:07   and they can force us to back off of it,

00:54:11   but we're not gonna back off of it by default, right?

00:54:16   And so this may be the strategy here is,

00:54:19   if you in the US, let's say,

00:54:21   are so concerned about the CSAM stuff

00:54:24   being on Apple devices, here's what you need to do.

00:54:28   You need to make it a law that we have to scan for it.

00:54:31   And then we'll scan for it on device

00:54:34   and people will be angry and we'll say,

00:54:36   "Sorry, it's the law. We have to abide by the law." I do wonder if that is an aspect

00:54:40   of this because they know they're going to get hit by all of this stuff. Either that

00:54:44   – well, and the other part of it is maybe this is part of their strategy to say, "We

00:54:48   want our customers to see that when Apple is making waves in the news, it's because

00:54:53   Apple is erring on the side of the privacy of the customers and not on the governments."

00:54:59   And how does that play? I think that it plays differently with different people. But I think

00:55:05   that they are trying to walk the walk here to a certain degree with their discussions

00:55:09   of privacy commitments, knowing that it's going to blow back.

00:55:13   Because what this does, what Advanced Data Protection does, is does the actual thing

00:55:17   that they promised for years, which is what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone.

00:55:20   It's an ad campaign they never should have done because it's one of those things that

00:55:24   just comes around and bites them back every little while.

00:55:26   Every time there's anything, yeah.

00:55:28   Those pictures of the billboards at CES where they put that on these huge buildings is always

00:55:33   But this is that, this is what I have wanted.

00:55:36   Advanced Data Protection is what I as a user

00:55:38   have wanted for years.

00:55:40   I just want to know that my information is mine.

00:55:43   And I don't worry necessarily, I mean maybe one day I will,

00:55:47   but I don't worry right now about a government getting in,

00:55:50   but I do worry about Apple getting hacked.

00:55:53   Of course it's possible, unlikely, but possible, right?

00:55:57   That there's some kind of data breach at Apple.

00:56:00   Like every other company can be succumb to it.

00:56:03   It's just lucky maybe that they haven't so far

00:56:07   or like there's a lot of really great work going on,

00:56:09   but lots of companies have this stuff going on, right?

00:56:12   It's not happened to Apple.

00:56:13   I don't ever want it to because I have so much of my stuff.

00:56:16   So I have wanted encryption for a long time,

00:56:19   like full encryption of everything, including my messages,

00:56:22   which is maybe the most important thing, right?

00:56:25   'Cause that's where I'm having private conversations

00:56:27   with all of the people in my life.

00:56:29   and I want that stuff to,

00:56:31   I wanna feel that I have the same sense of security

00:56:33   over that as I do how many steps I've walked each day,

00:56:37   right, which that has been end-to-end encrypted

00:56:39   for a long time, is all your health data.

00:56:41   Like, oh, my flights of stair trends,

00:56:44   don't let anyone see those, right,

00:56:46   but like my messages with my wife, whatever, man, you know?

00:56:50   So I'm really happy that they've put this in

00:56:53   'cause it's great, but it is an absolute minefield

00:56:56   that they're walking into,

00:56:58   and I am fascinated to see where it goes.

00:57:03   - Yeah, and it's gonna go somewhere.

00:57:04   I don't think this is gonna be a quiet thing.

00:57:06   This is gonna be, they are prompting response

00:57:10   by doing this, right?

00:57:12   - And maybe this, why this isn't,

00:57:13   wasn't an iOS 16 thing, right?

00:57:15   Like they didn't want the whole conversation

00:57:18   of their new operating system to be focused around this

00:57:20   in the mainstream media.

00:57:21   So it's like, we'll leave this for a later point

00:57:24   and then introduce it now or whenever it was ready.

00:57:27   - Also, this is the time to introduce it

00:57:29   where you can introduce it and ship it fairly quickly, right?

00:57:33   Whereas if they introduce this in June

00:57:35   and said it'll ship this fall sometime,

00:57:37   that would give it, everybody, including governments,

00:57:40   time to react to it.

00:57:42   Here, they wanna ship it, and then again,

00:57:44   if my theory is right, ship it,

00:57:46   and so then they can point to the governments and say,

00:57:47   "That's why you don't get this feature, it's not us."

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00:59:52   So there's been some news from Mark Gurman around Apple's car project.

00:59:58   Hey, Myke, do you remember when I said that if Apple was committed to shipping a car without

01:00:04   a steering wheel that it would never ship?

01:00:07   Yes. And it seems like that may in fact be the case.

01:00:11   Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is making significant changes to their ongoing car project.

01:00:19   They are no longer planning to release a fully self-driving vehicle, so it will in fact have

01:00:24   a steering wheel and pedals if you could imagine such a thing.

01:00:29   It has been considered as not feasible at this time to continue with that idea.

01:00:39   It will have some autopilot-like features for driving on highways and stuff.

01:00:44   And the Bloomberg report says that Apple is intending that people could use the screens

01:00:48   in their cars for apps, multitasking, and entertainment while this is happening.

01:00:53   I don't see that as a possibility.

01:00:56   Again, the laws.

01:00:58   The laws, everybody.

01:01:00   And also just like, I don't know, maybe as, I don't know.

01:01:04   Apple will of course-

01:01:05   - Tesla's that have screens in the back seat,

01:01:07   they can use those screens to like watch movies and stuff.

01:01:10   But there are laws against the driver being able to see

01:01:13   distracting stuff in the, at least in the US, right?

01:01:16   Like it's not allowed when you're in drive

01:01:19   to have like videos playing on the screen.

01:01:22   You're not allowed to do that.

01:01:24   - At least for a long time.

01:01:25   We've got a long time before that should be a thing

01:01:27   people will be able to do.

01:01:28   - Feels like that is a, yeah, that is the,

01:01:31   well, I think, not to draw more Tesla parallels,

01:01:34   but this report sounds a little bit like,

01:01:37   oh, but we are gonna be able to do full self-driving

01:01:39   level five on highways.

01:01:41   One of my Apple car theories really is

01:01:47   that the reason Apple is doing this

01:01:48   is that Apple is convinced or somebody at Apple

01:01:50   is convinced that they are gonna be able

01:01:52   to be the ones to crack the level five,

01:01:55   which is like completely autonomous driving algorithm.

01:01:58   And I'll just point out that Tesla has been trying to sell

01:02:02   and has been selling this full self-driving thing

01:02:04   for ages now that is not full self-driving, right?

01:02:07   It's not, it's just not.

01:02:08   You have to pay attention all the time

01:02:10   and it'll drive itself a little bit,

01:02:12   but it is not a completely autonomous,

01:02:15   you don't need to look kind of mode.

01:02:19   And I feel like Apple somehow thinks

01:02:22   that maybe they could do it

01:02:24   where Tesla has not yet succeeded

01:02:27   after trying for a decade.

01:02:29   And leaving aside whether that's realistic or not,

01:02:33   Like it would at least make it understandable.

01:02:36   Like if Apple thinks they could be first to market

01:02:37   with a truly autonomous self-driving car,

01:02:40   then that would be a reason to make a car, right?

01:02:43   If you're Apple is if you think,

01:02:44   oh, we've got it nailed, we've got it down.

01:02:46   Nobody else does, but we do.

01:02:48   And so when in this context of saying

01:02:50   like letting people use apps while they're driving

01:02:52   on the highway, that's sorta how I read it

01:02:56   is them saying to themselves,

01:02:58   well, we may be able not to do,

01:03:00   this is like what John Syracuse always talks about

01:03:02   when he believes they'll never be self-driving cars, truly,

01:03:05   is local roads that are terrible, right?

01:03:08   Like local roads that are terrible.

01:03:10   We were driving, Lauren and I were driving

01:03:12   to Curling the other day, and it had rained,

01:03:15   and the sun was coming up,

01:03:16   and the sun was bouncing off the road,

01:03:18   and they had done work on the road

01:03:20   where they had moved some of the roads,

01:03:22   so there were lines, but there were also places

01:03:24   where the lines had been that had been scraped off

01:03:26   and seams in the concrete, or seams in the pavement.

01:03:28   you could not tell where the lanes were on that.

01:03:33   And that was on a freeway.

01:03:35   Like, so roads are, right?

01:03:39   Like the human brain struggles with roads sometimes.

01:03:41   To get a system that's so perfect

01:03:42   that all the little roads and everything

01:03:44   are gonna be covered exactly, it seems unlikely,

01:03:47   but maybe Apple's placing a bet here

01:03:49   if they really do believe they've cracked level five

01:03:52   autonomy or that they're going to,

01:03:55   which I think is, I would say, look at the lesson of Tesla,

01:03:58   which is Tesla has thought that they were about to be there

01:04:01   for a while and they're not there.

01:04:03   But if they do think that,

01:04:06   they would say something like this, right?

01:04:07   Which is like, okay, maybe you're gonna need

01:04:09   a steering wheel for like the streets.

01:04:11   But once you get on the highway, boom,

01:04:13   you just lean back, watch some TV.

01:04:16   I just, I don't think it's realistic.

01:04:18   - Apple will of course be designing its own chips

01:04:22   for their car project to run on.

01:04:24   Apparently their chips are nearly production ready

01:04:26   and are four times more powerful

01:04:28   than anything they currently make.

01:04:30   I'm not really sure why that means anything,

01:04:32   but that's the thing.

01:04:33   Like, what about 40 times more powerful?

01:04:36   Like how much more powerful does a car need?

01:04:38   I don't know, 'cause it's not even about power, right?

01:04:40   It's more about the ability to do things in real time,

01:04:43   which is, right?

01:04:45   'Cause that's the whole thing about cars,

01:04:46   is it's a different type of operating system, right?

01:04:48   It's a real-time operating system.

01:04:49   - Yeah, I guess the idea there is that

01:04:53   if you're processing input

01:04:54   from all sorts of different places,

01:04:56   That's a huge amount of data and you need the speed

01:04:58   to process all the input and do whatever kind of like

01:05:01   neural processing you need to do in order to,

01:05:03   'cause that's what you're trying to do

01:05:04   is you've got a bunch of sensors.

01:05:06   I don't know what Apple's car sensor plan is,

01:05:09   but you got a bunch of sensors and you've got

01:05:12   some sort of neural net processing as well.

01:05:14   There's a huge amount of data feeding in there

01:05:16   so that it can see essentially, right?

01:05:18   And it can make, and then make driving decisions

01:05:21   based on what it can see.

01:05:23   - And they're gonna be doing that LIDAR, radar

01:05:25   cameras Apple are going to be making all their own custom sensors and using their

01:05:29   own components for this. A quote from the article "Apple will use the cloud for

01:05:35   some AI processing and the company is considering a remote command center that

01:05:40   could assist drivers and control cars from afar during emergencies." That

01:05:44   also seems to tie somewhat into the satellite thing as well which I found

01:05:48   interesting. Kind of wild. And they are targeting a sub $100,000 price for the

01:05:54   car. So it would basically be in the Tesla Model S.

01:05:59   - Luxury sedan. I mean, I've kind of assumed all along

01:06:03   that if Apple ever made a car, it would start

01:06:05   with the luxury sedan and then follow with the luxury

01:06:09   crossover SUV thing. And then they'd go from there.

01:06:14   - Apple car mini.

01:06:15   - That sounds about right. Yeah, sure.

01:06:18   - So here's my question for you, right?

01:06:20   I, so reading all of this,

01:06:24   like I think it'd be interesting to see

01:06:26   what exactly could an Apple car,

01:06:29   like the hardware of the car do to make it stand out

01:06:34   and also to make it be trusted.

01:06:35   Like, because if they could, you know,

01:06:37   we saw the CarPlay preview, right?

01:06:40   If they continue to make CarPlay better

01:06:42   and CarPlay can be more integrated and more awesome,

01:06:46   then an Apple car may not have that much

01:06:49   of a software advantage,

01:06:51   'cause you can get like the Apple experience in another car.

01:06:54   So how would an Apple car set itself apart

01:06:59   from any other car?

01:07:02   - Well, my guess, and also I think Mark Herman's report

01:07:05   says that they're still talking to car companies

01:07:07   about using their platform.

01:07:09   So they're not gonna build their own electric car platform.

01:07:12   They're gonna use somebody's electric car platform.

01:07:14   the wheels and the engine and all of that.

01:07:19   So what's left is the shape of the car,

01:07:24   the details on the interior and the exterior,

01:07:27   the fact that they will own the entire interface

01:07:30   wall to wall, although again,

01:07:31   that CarPlay announcement seemed to suggest

01:07:33   that they wanted to be able to do that in everybody's car,

01:07:37   who would choose to be a partner

01:07:39   for that new version of CarPlay,

01:07:41   and that they would have all the amazing

01:07:43   integrated intelligence that is suggested

01:07:47   in Mark Gurman's report, right?

01:07:49   Like the stuff that takes it to another level

01:07:52   because it's the complete Apple experience.

01:07:54   So it's high quality materials

01:07:56   and it's the complete Apple experience through and through.

01:07:59   And, you know, I think that the truth is

01:08:02   that this felt like more, five years ago,

01:08:06   this felt more like an opportunity than it does now

01:08:09   because so many other electric cars are in the market now.

01:08:12   back when it was sort of like Tesla and nobody else

01:08:14   or Tesla and like little tiny roller skate cars,

01:08:17   like my Nissan Leaf, right?

01:08:20   That it was like, well, there's a real opportunity

01:08:22   for Apple to get in there and sort of out Tesla, Tesla.

01:08:26   But now it's like, okay, yeah,

01:08:28   but also every other car manufacturer.

01:08:31   And you're doing this CarPlay thing

01:08:33   that maybe allows them to bring Apple's interface

01:08:37   into their whole design on the inside of the screens.

01:08:42   So what is left to really differentiate you?

01:08:48   And I'm sure, like we can imagine it, right?

01:08:50   Like I'm sure Apple could make something

01:08:53   that would be a truly a luxury car for nerds

01:08:58   that has great materials and an interesting look

01:09:02   and has Apple's touch of design everywhere.

01:09:07   Like I can see that,

01:09:11   but it feels less essential than it did five years ago.

01:09:16   Right? Like when they started this project,

01:09:19   it seemed like there was more of a moment

01:09:21   for them to come in.

01:09:22   And now it feels like there's less of that.

01:09:24   - Yeah, 'cause there's so much trust, right?

01:09:28   Like that maybe people don't think about,

01:09:31   But there is a trust that you've got to have

01:09:34   that the car's gonna protect you

01:09:36   and is gonna be good, right?

01:09:38   And Tesla was able to skirt some of that trust

01:09:43   by being like this quote unquote,

01:09:47   like first really good electric car, right?

01:09:49   First luxury electric car.

01:09:51   So that excitement drew people to them

01:09:55   and then people bought the cars.

01:09:57   But now everyone's making luxury electric cars.

01:10:00   - Yeah.

01:10:01   is less like I don't know what Apple's thing is going to be that makes people jump over that hurdle.

01:10:08   And this has been the thing that I think looking back and reading Mark's reports on this over time

01:10:12   and looking back over the whole history of this project titan thing, I'm really coming around to

01:10:18   the idea that the thing is that Apple believes they can make a self-driving car that actually

01:10:23   works. Yeah. I think that's the thing. I think that what's motivated them all along is Apple's

01:10:29   belief that Apple is so brilliant. And they have, you know, again, they do have brilliance,

01:10:37   but the question is can they apply it in this category? And we've seen other companies try

01:10:41   to apply it and have not succeeded. But Apple believing like, "We're Apple. We can do this.

01:10:47   We are going to be able to roll in here like we did with the iPhone, right? We're going

01:10:51   to roll in and say, 'Yeah, you've been doing all of these sort of like mildly autonomous

01:10:55   cars that you have to really kind of only on certain roads and you've got to

01:10:59   pay attention all the time and we're blowing it away like we're making a

01:11:02   completely self-driving car you you wouldn't even need to be inside you

01:11:06   could just say go pick up my kid and it would go over there right like I think

01:11:09   that was the initial conception and and now where we are is sort of like the

01:11:15   bargaining stage where if I read Mark's report correctly maybe they say well

01:11:19   it's kind of like a Tesla but we have better software so that when you're on a

01:11:24   a highway, it will be self-driving. But the other times, you have to have a steering wheel

01:11:29   because the other times it won't be, at least not yet. But eventually, like, right, and

01:11:33   they're bargaining. And the bargaining is about the level of differentiation they can

01:11:38   do and it seems like they're scaling it down and they're scaling it down and they're scaling

01:11:41   it down. But I think at least what they want, to answer your question, to set it apart is

01:11:49   feature is the autonomy and some level of it somewhere where they feel like this is

01:11:55   going to be that they've cracked it and that no one else is going to be able to provide

01:11:59   that level of intelligent safety and self-driving and auto correction and whatever else than

01:12:05   what Apple does. I am really skeptical that they are going to be able to roll in and do

01:12:11   that because the whole industry has been trying to do that for a long time and has not succeeded

01:12:18   and it's turned out to be much harder.

01:12:20   I mean, again, there's a lot of baggage here,

01:12:23   but following Elon Musk on the space side for liftoff,

01:12:28   Steven and I learned he makes lots of bold pronouncements

01:12:32   that don't end up happening,

01:12:34   which is not to say that SpaceX hasn't done amazing things,

01:12:36   but they make a lot and he makes a lot of things

01:12:39   that are announcements of things

01:12:40   that just are never gonna happen

01:12:42   on the timeline that he specifies.

01:12:43   And Tesla, I think that's one of the issues with Tesla

01:12:47   and it comes down to Musk,

01:12:48   but it's also this belief that like,

01:12:49   oh yeah, it's just around the corner, full self-driving,

01:12:52   we're gonna call it that.

01:12:53   And like, and it's not just around the corner.

01:12:56   There's always another beta,

01:12:57   there's always another YouTube video that shows

01:12:59   that it still can't make unprotected left turns.

01:13:02   You know, it gets better and better.

01:13:03   And that's a company that has been out there

01:13:06   testing this in the field,

01:13:08   having real people use it for years now.

01:13:12   And it's still like,

01:13:13   it keeps getting incrementally better.

01:13:15   So the idea that Apple is gonna be like,

01:13:16   yes, but in secret, we have cracked it.

01:13:18   We've solved all the problems and we are ahead of everyone.

01:13:21   Look, if that's the case,

01:13:23   then there is absolutely a reason for them to sell a car.

01:13:25   I just am a little skeptical that what's going on there

01:13:28   is actually, and we see it with the,

01:13:30   oh, maybe we do need a steering wheel thing.

01:13:32   It's actually a great belief in their own ability

01:13:35   to solve the problem while actually not being able

01:13:38   to solve the problem because it's a very, very hard problem.

01:13:41   - I don't know about this whole thing.

01:13:43   I really don't know about this whole thing.

01:13:45   Like I'm now starting to read this as

01:13:49   they committed so much time and money

01:13:51   that now somebody has said, you gotta ship something.

01:13:53   - We might as well just make a,

01:13:55   hey, people will buy an Apple car for 100,000

01:13:57   and it'll be kind of like a Tesla.

01:13:58   Yeah, I think that's maybe where we end up

01:14:01   is that they will ship a car.

01:14:03   - It's where the rationalizing is taking them to.

01:14:04   - It will be made in partnership with some other car maker,

01:14:08   but it will have the Apple stamp on it

01:14:10   and it will be like a Tesla, right?

01:14:15   It will be a computer car.

01:14:17   It'll have nice features.

01:14:19   It'll be pricey, but it'll be nice.

01:14:21   It'll be maybe the luxury people will look at it

01:14:23   and be like, this isn't like they do with Teslas

01:14:25   and be like, well, this is weird.

01:14:26   But the nerds will look at it and go,

01:14:28   yay, it's a computer car.

01:14:30   And it will do some level of,

01:14:34   like it'll do what Tesla does.

01:14:35   It'll have like, oh, it's got a sensor to tell you

01:14:37   when you've changed lanes

01:14:39   and a sensor to turn on the high beams

01:14:41   and like, and it'll on the high,

01:14:44   It'll have limited autonomy features in specific circumstances, but you still have to pay attention.

01:14:50   You can see how if they back off far enough, they'll literally just be making a Tesla,

01:14:54   except it'll be an Apple.

01:14:57   I think that if you had to ask me to predict what the most likely scenario is for the Apple

01:15:05   car, my number one would be none, and my number two would be it'll basically be like a Tesla,

01:15:13   a revolutionary autonomous vehicle but more or less the same kind of thing we see from

01:15:19   Tesla where it's a computer car that's got those, you know, very mild machine learning

01:15:25   based features.

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01:17:46   Let's finish out today's episode with some #askupgrade questions.

01:17:53   Jack asks, "Why do you think Safari extensions don't work in in-app browsers on iOS?

01:17:59   Is it just something Apple hasn't gotten to yet?

01:18:01   Drives me mad when I'm blinded by a white website at night

01:18:05   because it wasn't norified.

01:18:07   Noirified.

01:18:10   - Noirified, yeah.

01:18:11   Noir is a great Safari extension.

01:18:13   I assume that it's a security issue

01:18:18   that they don't want extensions rewriting stuff inside apps,

01:18:23   but I don't know.

01:18:28   It is, I mean, all I can say is I don't know the answer

01:18:33   to this, I assume that there's a reason, I hate it too.

01:18:36   I hate it too.

01:18:38   I also hate it because here's a funny thing.

01:18:41   I use Twitterific and I always have it in dark mode,

01:18:47   even though my iPad isn't always in dark mode,

01:18:50   I have Twitterific in dark mode just 'cause I like it.

01:18:53   And it means that all web views in Twitterific load

01:18:56   in dark mode.

01:18:57   It's super weird.

01:19:00   And I don't understand it.

01:19:01   And is it like, is it inheriting a flag

01:19:03   that's coming from the app?

01:19:04   And so it's decided that since the Twitter background is,

01:19:07   I don't know, anyway.

01:19:08   - Are they able to affect that in any way?

01:19:10   - I think maybe they are setting that they're in a dark mode

01:19:14   and then when they open the web view,

01:19:15   'cause if I then open it in Safari,

01:19:17   it just opens in the normal view.

01:19:19   So they seem to be,

01:19:20   it seems to be inheriting the view

01:19:23   that's coming from Twitter, Twitter-ific.

01:19:25   And maybe, you know, technically maybe it's a bug

01:19:28   since it shouldn't be doing that.

01:19:29   But anyway, my point is, I don't know why.

01:19:33   My guess is that Apple has some reason

01:19:35   that involves a scenario where either they don't,

01:19:39   either they just don't wanna build that interface

01:19:41   or they haven't built that interface yet

01:19:42   into the simplified interface of a web view.

01:19:45   But it's also possible that there is a security concern

01:19:49   where they, like they don't wanna have the ability

01:19:51   to rewrite the contents of web browser,

01:19:54   in-app web browsers, either for the sake of the developer,

01:19:58   who's not getting what they expect,

01:20:00   or for the sake of the user who might be having,

01:20:03   seeing something that is not what they're actually

01:20:05   supposed to be seeing.

01:20:06   I don't know, but I hate it too.

01:20:07   That's my answer is, I wish it was also not true.

01:20:11   Somebody out there who knows the answer,

01:20:14   that you can, who's at Apple can tell us, great, tell us.

01:20:17   We'll do some AskUp, great follow up next time.

01:20:20   'Cause I would like to know if there's a real reason

01:20:22   or if it's just like we haven't gotten to that yet.

01:20:24   - And also that person, if you could like,

01:20:26   just make it work.

01:20:28   - Slide it in there.

01:20:29   Just make a file a radar.

01:20:32   - No, pull request.

01:20:35   Merge.

01:20:36   - Yeah, drop that in.

01:20:37   Just like if in app browser,

01:20:39   then extensions equals yes, semi-colon, brackets.

01:20:44   - This is one of my favorite ask up requestions of all time.

01:20:48   It comes from Connie.

01:20:50   If Apple events had a Marvel-style post-credit scene

01:20:55   that would tease the next product

01:20:57   that they're gonna drop at the next keynote,

01:20:59   what would you picture for one of the upcoming

01:21:02   maybe mixed reality headset or Apple car, right?

01:21:04   So you get the post-credit scenes where they're like,

01:21:07   ah, something else is happening

01:21:08   in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, what would Apple do?

01:21:11   So I was imagining one.

01:21:12   I actually too pull from Marvel.

01:21:14   So in the Iron Man movies, right,

01:21:17   you know, you'd get those scenes

01:21:19   where you'd be looking at Tony Stark's face,

01:21:21   like the camera's like inside the helmet, you know?

01:21:25   And you could see like his face talking to Jarvis

01:21:27   or whatever as he's flying around.

01:21:29   I imagine one of those, but it's Tim Cook

01:21:32   and he's got the AR helmet on and we don't see it,

01:21:35   but we know he's got it on and he's like, wow!

01:21:39   And that's the post-credits scene, you know?

01:21:41   That's what I imagine.

01:21:43   - I feel like in the true tradition of Marvel movies,

01:21:47   It'll be like somebody we've never seen before,

01:21:49   but who is known, but you've got to like go on the internet

01:21:53   and look up who they are because you don't recognize them,

01:21:55   but they are a known person at Apple

01:21:57   that only the real hardcore nerds will recognize them.

01:22:01   And you're like, what are they doing?

01:22:04   And you know, and the truth is they're going to be revealed

01:22:06   to be the next Apple CEO,

01:22:07   but that doesn't happen until phase six.

01:22:10   And they drive away in a car that we only get a glimpse of.

01:22:13   And we're like, who was that?

01:22:14   And what were they driving?

01:22:15   I don't know.

01:22:16   Maybe I'll look it up on the internet later.

01:22:17   The end.

01:22:18   - Oh, have you not heard of that person?

01:22:20   They're the vice president

01:22:21   of software architecture and systems.

01:22:23   - Oh, the backstory there is amazing

01:22:24   'cause they work for Intel for a while

01:22:28   and then they did a startup

01:22:30   and then they came back to Apple, bought the startup

01:22:32   and they came back.

01:22:33   It's a complicated backstory,

01:22:35   but you could read all about it.

01:22:36   I've got a book that you could read about it if you want to.

01:22:39   And it's like, no, no, no, that's fine.

01:22:41   I'll just wait for the next Apple event.

01:22:42   - They're really big on the web blogs.

01:22:44   Like it's a big deal on the web blogs.

01:22:46   Like if you've read the web blogs,

01:22:47   then you'll know all about them.

01:22:50   Oh man, I love that question.

01:22:52   And I read your answer in the document earlier

01:22:56   and I chuckled to myself.

01:22:57   I enjoyed that a lot, Jason.

01:22:59   This is very good.

01:23:00   John asks, this is a Jason Snell question.

01:23:03   If you could choose one feature from the iPhone 14 Pro

01:23:07   to have in your 13 mini, what would it be?

01:23:09   - This actually was harder than I thought

01:23:13   because I kept coming up with new answers.

01:23:15   I was like, "Oh, well, obviously it will be the,"

01:23:20   and then I realized, so I was like,

01:23:22   "The camera, it's gonna be the camera.

01:23:23   I just want that camera.

01:23:24   The camera is so great,

01:23:25   and the camera in the Mini is kind of lacking,

01:23:27   so I want that camera."

01:23:28   And then I thought about it, and I thought,

01:23:30   "Well, no, I could survive with the Mini camera."

01:23:35   But the number one reason I'm still using

01:23:38   the My Review unit of the iPhone 14

01:23:41   is 'cause I want to write and talk about the dynamic island.

01:23:45   So I have to say the dynamic island

01:23:48   because it would let me go back to my Mini

01:23:50   and I'd still have the dynamic island there.

01:23:54   But the feature that I would be truly envious of

01:23:56   is the camera.

01:23:58   The cameras on that iPhone 14 Pro are amazing.

01:24:03   But if I had to pick one,

01:24:05   because I have not bought a new iPhone

01:24:09   and I wanna keep using the Mini,

01:24:10   But the problem is I do need to actually like,

01:24:13   the state of the art for the iPhone right now

01:24:15   is the Pro phone with the Dynamic Island.

01:24:17   I can't not use that.

01:24:21   Even though that phone is huge and weighs a ton

01:24:22   and I really would rather be using my Mini.

01:24:25   So if I magically got a Dynamic Island on my iPhone Mini,

01:24:29   I'd be very happy.

01:24:30   - And Craig asks,

01:24:32   "Are you still using or enjoying the Play Date?

01:24:34   Is it still a good purchase

01:24:36   now that you spent more time with it?"

01:24:39   I'm very happy that I bought it.

01:24:41   - Yep.

01:24:42   - I wish I was playing it more.

01:24:45   I'm not playing it more for two reasons.

01:24:47   One is, as I've mentioned several times,

01:24:51   I understand why they made the decisions they did,

01:24:53   but not having a backlit screen limits where I can play it.

01:24:57   And there are times where I think,

01:24:58   "Oh, I could play the play date."

01:24:59   And I realize, well, I can't,

01:25:01   because there's not enough light,

01:25:03   'cause it really needs to be in a well-lit situation.

01:25:07   And the other reason is just me.

01:25:10   I am not a big game player.

01:25:13   I like the idea of playing games,

01:25:16   and then I almost always choose something else

01:25:21   to do with my time.

01:25:23   I prioritize other things over games a lot.

01:25:26   And I am amazed by my friends who play lots of games,

01:25:30   but my understanding is they're also amazed

01:25:32   by the fact that I've read more than 50 books this year.

01:25:36   So I guess that's part of it,

01:25:40   is I'm watching movies and TV shows

01:25:41   and doing podcasts about them, and I'm reading books,

01:25:44   and games don't often rise up to that moment.

01:25:49   But that said, I've loved a lot of the games

01:25:51   on the play date, and there are a few in particular

01:25:55   that I've been meaning to write a story

01:25:57   about the ones that I absolutely love.

01:26:00   And I would absolutely sign up for a season two of games,

01:26:04   And I wish I played it more, but really in the end,

01:26:08   I think it comes down to just not,

01:26:10   I brought it with me on trips being like,

01:26:12   I'm gonna play that play date.

01:26:13   And it's like, I don't, or I play it one time,

01:26:15   or I try to play it on the plane and realize

01:26:18   that the light above the seat isn't bright enough

01:26:21   at the right angle for me to play and stuff like that.

01:26:24   So I'm happy I played it.

01:26:25   I wish I, I like it so much that I wish I would play it more,

01:26:29   but it never or rarely seems to rise to that.

01:26:32   And then every now and then I'm like, oh yeah, play date.

01:26:34   and then I'll go and I'll play some more Pik-Pak Pup

01:26:36   or whatever that one is that's kind of like Asteroids

01:26:40   and I'll just play those again because I love them.

01:26:43   - I basically agree with 100% of everything you said

01:26:47   and feel exactly the same.

01:26:48   My only difference is I got a Steam Deck.

01:26:52   - Yeah, you do play games.

01:26:54   - I play lots and so that has opened up

01:26:56   the amount of games that I play

01:26:57   and I've just had a lot of really, really good big games

01:27:01   that I've wanted to play this year

01:27:02   and there's a bunch that I haven't even gotten to.

01:27:04   So if I'm going to play games for any period of time,

01:27:06   I'm choosing those bigger experiences.

01:27:09   But I love the Play Date.

01:27:10   I would do the same.

01:27:11   Like if they announced the season two, I would be all in.

01:27:13   Whenever they announce that Bluetooth clock dock speaker

01:27:17   thing, I'm all in on it.

01:27:19   Because I think it is a beautiful piece of hardware.

01:27:21   It's very fun.

01:27:22   And I do hope that one day that they're

01:27:24   able to do a second Play Date and it

01:27:26   does have a backlit screen.

01:27:28   I think it would make a big difference.

01:27:30   I agree with you.

01:27:30   I understand why they did it.

01:27:32   I make products too, right?

01:27:33   Like I understand that you have to make trade-offs, right?

01:27:36   Like to either achieve something you're looking for

01:27:38   or even to just make the thing, right?

01:27:41   Like you have to make compromises.

01:27:43   - I mean, it's fundamentally a casual game handheld,

01:27:47   which is a funny category,

01:27:48   and that's casual indie game handheld, little, cute,

01:27:53   all those things, but all those things

01:27:55   actually kind of drive it towards situations

01:27:57   where having it be lit up would make a huge difference.

01:28:02   And I understand why it's not, but like to me,

01:28:06   with my product reviewer hat on,

01:28:08   that is what I would say is like,

01:28:10   I love almost everything about it.

01:28:13   And I understand why they made the choice they did

01:28:15   to not have a light up display,

01:28:17   but it dramatically reduces the opportunity

01:28:20   I have to actually use it.

01:28:21   And I do love playing games on it,

01:28:24   but a lot of the, most of the times that I might play it,

01:28:28   I'm in places where I can't play it.

01:28:31   That's the truth of it.

01:28:32   - Yeah.

01:28:33   So if you are still thinking about it,

01:28:36   I still recommend it.

01:28:37   I think it's a really fun little system,

01:28:40   like a fun gadget, a fun toy kind of thing.

01:28:44   But it is not perfect and,

01:28:47   but some of the games on it are so good, it's worth it.

01:28:51   Like, the... what was it? Bloom?

01:28:56   Just a wonderful game.

01:28:57   Like, that's one of the games that I bought and side-loaded.

01:29:01   That's just unbelievable.

01:29:03   Yeah, Pick, Crack, Pop is fantastic.

01:29:04   Like, there's some great stuff.

01:29:05   There's still some games I haven't played.

01:29:07   Like, there's a couple of games I actually have not played yet,

01:29:09   which I still want to, so.

01:29:11   It's a good little system.

01:29:13   Yeah, big fans.

01:29:15   If you'd like to send in a question of your own,

01:29:17   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade,

01:29:19   to use ?askupgrade on the Relay FM members Discord which you can get access to if you

01:29:24   sign up for Upgrade Plus.

01:29:25   Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can support the show.

01:29:28   Thank you to Trade Coffee and Squarespace and Clean My Mac X for the support of this

01:29:33   show but as always thank you for listening and thank you for welcoming me back into your

01:29:38   podcast rotation whether you like it or not I suppose.

01:29:42   Here I am.

01:29:43   I had a nice break but I'm happy to be back on Upgrade.

01:29:46   We've got a very fun next few weeks.

01:29:49   I enjoy this time of year around here.

01:29:51   Got some good stuff coming up.

01:29:52   If you want to find Jason online, go to sixcolors.com.

01:29:55   He is @jsnew, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.

01:29:58   I am @ymike, I-M-Y-K-E, and we'll be back next week.

01:30:01   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:30:05   Goodbye Myke Hurley.

01:30:06   [MUSIC]