Upgrade

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00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:03 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 433.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace

00:00:15 ◼   ► and StoryWorth.

00:00:16 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:20 ◼   ► - Hi, Myke.

00:00:20 ◼   ► How have we been doing this for 433 episodes?

00:00:23 ◼   ► How is that possible?

00:00:23 ◼   ► - Just one episode at a time.

00:00:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's all you can do.

00:00:27 ◼   ► I mean, unless you need to record extra.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Anyway, yes, in one episode at a time, yeah, exactly.

00:00:31 ◼   ► - I mean, I think you always do one episode at a time,

00:00:34 ◼   ► right, even if you're doing extras,

00:00:35 ◼   ► it's always one episode.

00:00:36 ◼   ► - That's true, you do one and then you do the next.

00:00:40 ◼   ► You can't take it more than,

00:00:42 ◼   ► if you try to record two podcasts at once,

00:00:43 ◼   ► I don't advise it, I think it would be a disaster.

00:00:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, bad idea.

00:00:47 ◼   ► I have a #snowtalk question for you,

00:00:49 ◼   ► comes from Rick and Rick wants to know,

00:00:50 ◼   ► well, Rick starts by saying,

00:00:52 ◼   ► Jason, I loved the T-Robot episode

00:00:54 ◼   ► of the Thoroughly Considered podcast.

00:00:56 ◼   ► I also finished it since we last spoke,

00:00:57 ◼   ► It was a very good episode.

00:00:59 ◼   ► Rick wants to know, do you partake in and enjoy iced tea?

00:01:04 ◼   ► - Oh boy.

00:01:05 ◼   ► Sure, iced tea is fine.

00:01:07 ◼   ► If I have leftover tea in the teapot,

00:01:10 ◼   ► let's say I make tea for upgrade

00:01:12 ◼   ► 'cause I want my voice to be clear

00:01:15 ◼   ► and not having my throat being cleared every five minutes.

00:01:18 ◼   ► - And the caffeine.

00:01:19 ◼   ► Caffeine delivery is important, you know?

00:01:21 ◼   ► - Caffeine delivery to make me talkative

00:01:23 ◼   ► and also to get the phlegm out of my throat.

00:01:26 ◼   ► but I might have some leftover.

00:01:28 ◼   ► What might I do with something like that?

00:01:30 ◼   ► What might I do?

00:01:31 ◼   ► The answer is yes, I might actually drink it as iced tea.

00:01:35 ◼   ► And in the summer, sure, we've got to be,

00:01:36 ◼   ► you know, I've got a little iced tea.

00:01:38 ◼   ► I actually have an iced tea maker,

00:01:40 ◼   ► which is not as high tech or nice.

00:01:44 ◼   ► It's a big plastic contraption that you stick.

00:01:46 ◼   ► You put water in the plastic contraption

00:01:49 ◼   ► and ice in the bucket in the pitcher,

00:01:52 ◼   ► and you press a button and it basically just boils the water

00:01:55 ◼   ► and runs it through a little steeping basket.

00:01:58 ◼   ► I hadn't really thought of it,

00:01:59 ◼   ► but it is basically a sort of low-end tea robot for iced tea.

00:02:04 ◼   ► We do have that.

00:02:05 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I'll do that too.

00:02:08 ◼   ► That's fine.

00:02:10 ◼   ► Sometimes with lemon, sometimes not.

00:02:11 ◼   ► - Sugar, is it sweet?

00:02:14 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah?

00:02:15 ◼   ► - Yep. - There is something

00:02:17 ◼   ► truly special about like really sweet iced tea.

00:02:22 ◼   ► I mean, for me, it's Memphis,

00:02:23 ◼   ► where I've enjoyed this the most.

00:02:25 ◼   ► - It's Memphis, sure, 'cause they make it that way.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Most, outside of the South in the US,

00:02:31 ◼   ► generally you need to supply your own sugar, which I do.

00:02:34 ◼   ► And it's never as good, right?

00:02:35 ◼   ► 'Cause you gotta get, you get the granulated sugar

00:02:37 ◼   ► and it has to dissolve and it's never as good.

00:02:39 ◼   ► But in the South, they just use the simple syrup.

00:02:43 ◼   ► So they just pour it in, it's instantly dissolved

00:02:46 ◼   ► and it's the sweet thing.

00:02:47 ◼   ► It's great, it's amazing.

00:02:48 ◼   ► I've said this on many occasions, I'll say it again.

00:02:51 ◼   ► If I lived in the South, I'd be dead by now because of all the barbecue and the sweet tea.

00:02:57 ◼   ► It's absolutely true. I would be gone.

00:02:59 ◼   ► You'd be dead happy though.

00:03:00 ◼   ► I would because barbecue is my favorite food and sweet tea is an amazing drink.

00:03:05 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't recommend it.

00:03:09 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question for us to open an episode of the show,

00:03:14 ◼   ► just send a tweet with the hashtag #SnailTalk or use question mark

00:03:17 ◼   ► Snail Talk in the Relay FM members discord.

00:03:20 ◼   ► I have a couple of items of follow up. I was complaining, questioning how good

00:03:27 ◼   ► Siri commands were to get lights to turn on and off when you're in a room.

00:03:32 ◼   ► Eric wrote in to say that if you add "in here" to the Siri request to turn on or off the lights,

00:03:40 ◼   ► it does a remarkable job of knowing where you are and acting accordingly.

00:03:44 ◼   ► Because I was not convinced that it knew which room I was in.

00:03:48 ◼   ► Eric suggests to try this.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Alright.

00:03:51 ◼   ► Uh, should I try it?

00:03:53 ◼   ► Yes.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Turn off the lights in here.

00:03:56 ◼   ► Okay. Which room?

00:04:02 ◼   ► Living room. Jamie?

00:04:03 ◼   ► Outside. Garage.

00:04:05 ◼   ► Sorry, Eric. That didn't work as well as you wanted.

00:04:09 ◼   ► Okay. The lights are off. The lava lamp is not responding.

00:04:11 ◼   ► Okay.

00:04:12 ◼   ► Check the home app for more details.

00:04:13 ◼   ► Oh no.

00:04:14 ◼   ► Well.

00:04:15 ◼   ► - After I told it what room I'm actually in,

00:04:18 ◼   ► which it doesn't know 'cause it was my watch,

00:04:19 ◼   ► it was not on a HomePod.

00:04:21 ◼   ► It did actually turn off the lights in here.

00:04:24 ◼   ► So I'll give it that.

00:04:25 ◼   ► - I think the key is the HomePod part.

00:04:28 ◼   ► - A lavalier.

00:04:29 ◼   ► - Right, like it's a device that has some kind of idea

00:04:32 ◼   ► of where it is.

00:04:33 ◼   ► I think that's probably the key part.

00:04:35 ◼   ► - I think that's it.

00:04:35 ◼   ► So maybe it does work.

00:04:37 ◼   ► It just doesn't work with the watch.

00:04:39 ◼   ► But if I had my smart assistant on a HomePod in here,

00:04:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, okay, that's a good tip, Eric, thank you.

00:04:46 ◼   ► - What I wanna know though, Jason,

00:04:48 ◼   ► is what's happened to the lava lamp?

00:04:50 ◼   ► - Well, you know, funny story,

00:04:53 ◼   ► I woke up on Sunday morning and our wifi was down.

00:04:58 ◼   ► - Ah, okay.

00:04:59 ◼   ► - And so, and this is like, I was, and funny,

00:05:01 ◼   ► I was just listening to the ATP episode

00:05:03 ◼   ► where they talked about Lutron Caseta switches

00:05:05 ◼   ► and how the great thing is that it's on its own network.

00:05:07 ◼   ► And so, you know, wifi is the thing that makes home

00:05:10 ◼   ► networking and home smart home devices not reliable.

00:05:15 ◼   ► And I got to get that firsthand

00:05:17 ◼   ► because what happened is I have a UPS,

00:05:20 ◼   ► an uninterruptible power system on for my router

00:05:25 ◼   ► and my wifi so that if the power goes out,

00:05:29 ◼   ► the router and the wifi stay on.

00:05:31 ◼   ► And this is my oldest, I think, UPS that I have

00:05:34 ◼   ► and it's battery died.

00:05:36 ◼   ► And the UPS's decision when the battery dies

00:05:38 ◼   ► is to take all the devices that are on the plugs that are backed up by the battery and

00:05:44 ◼   ► turn them off. And so at three in the morning, my Wi-Fi and my fiber router were just unceremoniously

00:05:52 ◼   ► shut down. And so I had in my pajamas, I was like, "What is going on?" I diagnosed it,

00:05:58 ◼   ► I got out, I pulled out the UPS, I put in a power strip, I plugged it all back in. But

00:06:04 ◼   ► I'll tell you, some devices, some wifi-based smart home devices do not like it when there

00:06:14 ◼   ► is a power cycle like that. And so I have been, and the lava lamp will be next, the

00:06:22 ◼   ► lights outside in the backyard didn't come on last night. And I'm like, "I know what

00:06:27 ◼   ► this is." And literally all I did was I unplugged them and, because it's a smart outlet, unplugged

00:06:31 ◼   ► and replugged the smart switch out there. And then they worked. Like I had to reboot

00:06:38 ◼   ► Homebridge because it was confused and the undoubtedly the smart switch that the lava

00:06:42 ◼   ► lamp is plugged into just needs to be unplugged and replugged at which point it will get back

00:06:47 ◼   ► on the network if it's back up and it's been back up for ages now but they just get really

00:06:50 ◼   ► confused and this is what we talk about when we say that relying on a Wi-Fi network for

00:06:56 ◼   ► your smart home devices is a problem because sometimes the Wi-Fi network gets kind of out

00:07:01 ◼   ► a whack and the devices get out of whack and then you know you you have to power cycle

00:07:07 ◼   ► everything in order to get it back together as opposed to something like the Lutron Quesada

00:07:13 ◼   ► stuff which is working fine because it's got its own radio network and they talk to themselves

00:07:19 ◼   ► and they are connected to the rest of the house but they don't rely on the Wi-Fi to

00:07:24 ◼   ► stay up and running. I wonder if some of these devices like with that kind of tying off the

00:07:30 ◼   ► the power like that almost treat it like a reset.

00:07:32 ◼   ► Like it may trigger like a, you know,

00:07:35 ◼   ► like they think that you've purposely reset the device

00:07:38 ◼   ► or something.

00:07:39 ◼   ► - I think what's happening is that the smart home devices

00:07:41 ◼   ► that are on Wi-Fi are dumb and they lose the network

00:07:44 ◼   ► and they go, "Oh no!"

00:07:46 ◼   ► And then they never, and they, until you reboot them,

00:07:50 ◼   ► they don't know how to reconnect to the Wi-Fi network

00:07:54 ◼   ► that went down.

00:07:55 ◼   ► That seems to be what's going on here.

00:07:57 ◼   ► Like, "Oh no, I don't know what to do."

00:08:00 ◼   ► well, you know, this happens on networks all the time.

00:08:02 ◼   ► You should know what to do, but they don't.

00:08:05 ◼   ► And so then you power cycle them and then they come on,

00:08:07 ◼   ► they go, "Oh, where's my wifi network?"

00:08:08 ◼   ► There it is.

00:08:09 ◼   ► It's been there all along, stupid thing,

00:08:10 ◼   ► but the bad ones are like that.

00:08:14 ◼   ► I think there are good ones that aren't like that,

00:08:16 ◼   ► but the bad ones are like that.

00:08:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can definitely empathize

00:08:20 ◼   ► because I haven't had internet for like seven days.

00:08:23 ◼   ► We had internet, now the internet's gone away

00:08:25 ◼   ► at the new place, so there's no internet anymore.

00:08:28 ◼   ► and it's kind of made the home network a bit of a disaster,

00:08:33 ◼   ► including all of our smart stuff.

00:08:36 ◼   ► - So you had it and then you lost it.

00:08:38 ◼   ► - We were using the previous owner's internet

00:08:41 ◼   ► because we wanted to sign up, but they weren't canceling.

00:08:44 ◼   ► So I just decided to set up my network.

00:08:48 ◼   ► - Then they canceled it.

00:08:49 ◼   ► - And now we're waiting to get re-set up again.

00:08:51 ◼   ► - Installed.

00:08:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, which hopefully will be tomorrow.

00:08:54 ◼   ► But you know, when it comes to internet service providers,

00:08:57 ◼   ► I never actually believe anything that they say

00:08:59 ◼   ► until it's done.

00:09:00 ◼   ► So we'll see what happens there.

00:09:02 ◼   ► But we're having an issue now where like,

00:09:05 ◼   ► we need to like be off wifi

00:09:09 ◼   ► to have a connection to the internet.

00:09:12 ◼   ► But then we need to turn on wifi on our devices

00:09:15 ◼   ► so we can turn off the lights.

00:09:16 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:09:18 ◼   ► Just some follow up here.

00:09:21 ◼   ► Turn on the lava lamp.

00:09:23 ◼   ► Oh, come on.

00:09:24 ◼   ► Oh, nearly.

00:09:25 ◼   ► Turn on the lava lamp.

00:09:26 ◼   ► You got it? Coming right up.

00:09:28 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:09:29 ◼   ► - Ladies and gentlemen, the lava lamp is on

00:09:30 ◼   ► and all I had to do was take a smart outlet,

00:09:33 ◼   ► unplug it and plug it back in.

00:09:35 ◼   ► - Perfect. - That's it.

00:09:36 ◼   ► - That's what it takes.

00:09:37 ◼   ► - That's it.

00:09:38 ◼   ► Not so smart, is it?

00:09:39 ◼   ► - You need to put the smart outlet on a smart outlet

00:09:41 ◼   ► so you can turn off the smart outlet for the smart.

00:09:43 ◼   ► - Oh, that's a, hmm, hmm.

00:09:46 ◼   ► - Then you'll be good to go.

00:09:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just, it's dumb.

00:09:50 ◼   ► - Speaking of which, Jason, I saw an article today,

00:09:53 ◼   ► I think you might be excited about this.

00:09:55 ◼   ► Phillips Hue Christmas lights.

00:09:58 ◼   ► - Ah. - Like string lights.

00:10:00 ◼   ► This is a new product.

00:10:03 ◼   ► It's available today.

00:10:05 ◼   ► I actually bought some.

00:10:07 ◼   ► I think this is a great idea.

00:10:08 ◼   ► It's 250 mini smart LEDs on a 20 meter cord,

00:10:12 ◼   ► which can be used on a Christmas tree,

00:10:13 ◼   ► stairway, mantle, or more, says MacRumors.

00:10:16 ◼   ► - Hmm, interesting. - It's a fun little product.

00:10:19 ◼   ► - That is what I was talking about.

00:10:22 ◼   ► the idea of having some smart controllable LED.

00:10:25 ◼   ► I'm sure there are lots of cheap ones out there

00:10:27 ◼   ► that are not hue based.

00:10:29 ◼   ► - And these aren't cheap, it's $160.

00:10:31 ◼   ► But I've had nothing but good things to say

00:10:34 ◼   ► about the hue line of products.

00:10:37 ◼   ► So I think this might be a fun little thing.

00:10:40 ◼   ► Plus I would say my wife Idina just loves

00:10:43 ◼   ► these kinds of lights.

00:10:44 ◼   ► Like we've always had like what we call fairy lights.

00:10:47 ◼   ► - Fairy lights.

00:10:48 ◼   ► - Somewhere in the home.

00:10:50 ◼   ► So these won't just be used at Christmas for us, I think.

00:10:54 ◼   ► But over the Christmas period,

00:10:55 ◼   ► we can put them around the tree.

00:10:57 ◼   ► So I think that'd be nice and cute.

00:10:58 ◼   ► - Festavia.

00:11:00 ◼   ► - Festavia, Festavia.

00:11:02 ◼   ► - Festavia.

00:11:03 ◼   ► - I don't like the name of that, but.

00:11:05 ◼   ► - I was thinking it would be Festiva, but it's Festavia.

00:11:08 ◼   ► - Festavia.

00:11:09 ◼   ► - That's the Dutch for you.

00:11:11 ◼   ► Germanifying everything like that, Festavia.

00:11:15 ◼   ► Yeah, it's Festavia.

00:11:18 ◼   ► - Indeed, speaking about the festive season.

00:11:20 ◼   ► Festive season means an important thing around here.

00:11:25 ◼   ► It is time to vote for the ninth annual Upgradies Awards.

00:11:29 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:11:30 ◼   ► - You can go to Upgradies.vote

00:11:32 ◼   ► and you can put your votes in now

00:11:35 ◼   ► for the ninth annual Upgradies.

00:11:39 ◼   ► Voting is open. - Are they votes,

00:11:39 ◼   ► the nominations?

00:11:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, nominations, votes, nominations, votes,

00:11:43 ◼   ► something like that.

00:11:45 ◼   ► you know what we're saying, is now time.

00:11:48 ◼   ► So the nominations are open,

00:11:50 ◼   ► you can go and fill out the Google form.

00:11:52 ◼   ► Voting is open from now until December 12th.

00:11:56 ◼   ► So you have about a month.

00:11:59 ◼   ► As a programming note,

00:12:01 ◼   ► we have condensed some categories this year.

00:12:04 ◼   ► So we previously had an iOS game of the year

00:12:07 ◼   ► and a game of the year.

00:12:09 ◼   ► We now just have game of the year,

00:12:11 ◼   ► so we're bringing that together.

00:12:12 ◼   ► And previously we had three podcast categories.

00:12:17 ◼   ► We had best tech podcast, best non-tech podcast,

00:12:21 ◼   ► and best podcast newcomer.

00:12:23 ◼   ► We now condense this to just best podcast,

00:12:26 ◼   ► which is one podcast category now.

00:12:29 ◼   ► But as a note,

00:12:30 ◼   ► we had had some previous Lifetime Achievement Award winners,

00:12:33 ◼   ► the Accidental Tech Podcast and the Flop House.

00:12:36 ◼   ► So they are going to continue.

00:12:38 ◼   ► They are not eligible for winning.

00:12:40 ◼   ► So it is not worth making that nomination

00:12:43 ◼   ► because it won't be counted.

00:12:45 ◼   ► So they're gonna continue being

00:12:46 ◼   ► Lifetime Achievement Award winners.

00:12:48 ◼   ► We encourage you to recommend

00:12:50 ◼   ► maybe your second favorite podcast,

00:12:52 ◼   ► if either of those is your favorite.

00:12:54 ◼   ► So we're going to now just do

00:12:56 ◼   ► the one overall podcast of the year category.

00:13:00 ◼   ► This is partly to bring it in line

00:13:03 ◼   ► with the other categories in this kind of block.

00:13:06 ◼   ► So we do of the year,

00:13:09 ◼   ► We can just choose, right?

00:13:12 ◼   ► You just choose your favorite and we're just going to go with it.

00:13:16 ◼   ► You can find previous winners at Upgradies.com, which the wonderful Zach maintains for us,

00:13:23 ◼   ► and the changes to these categories will be reflected at some point in the not too distant

00:13:28 ◼   ► future on the website.

00:13:31 ◼   ► We're getting ready.

00:13:32 ◼   ► I think we're going to be probably, I'm expecting, we haven't set this, but I'm expecting December

00:13:37 ◼   ► 19th is when the upgradees will occur,

00:13:42 ◼   ► because December 26th will be the holiday special, I expect,

00:13:45 ◼   ► is what we'll be doing.

00:13:47 ◼   ► - Oh, really?

00:13:48 ◼   ► I thought it would be the other way around, right?

00:13:50 ◼   ► - It's either gonna be December 19th or December 26th.

00:13:54 ◼   ► Me and Jason have not had this conversation yet,

00:13:57 ◼   ► but you have a month to do the voting,

00:13:59 ◼   ► and it'll be one of those last two episodes of the year.

00:14:02 ◼   ► - What if it's January 2nd?

00:14:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't want that.

00:14:06 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:14:07 ◼   ► to do in December. But we'll see. We have some scheduling to do as well, right? There's

00:14:11 ◼   ► a lot of holidays happening there, as there always are. That's why I wanted to get the

00:14:16 ◼   ► voting going now. Yep, that's a good idea. So we had enough time, and so then I'll have

00:14:21 ◼   ► enough time, depending on whenever we do it, to get the tabulation complete, because a

00:14:28 ◼   ► lot of work goes into that. I wanted to put a request out to Upgradients. Ooh. So I'm

00:14:37 ◼   ► So in the house move, I'm kind of redoing all of my home

00:14:43 ◼   ► automation stuff.

00:14:45 ◼   ► And I've decided to kind of do what

00:14:48 ◼   ► I can to focus on going all in on HomeKit this time around.

00:14:55 ◼   ► Where previously, I'd kind of dabbled with HomeKit

00:14:58 ◼   ► and Amazon Echo, that kind of stuff.

00:15:01 ◼   ► But my goal is that all of the smart devices that I buy

00:15:06 ◼   ► will be able to tie into HomeKit.

00:15:08 ◼   ► And then if I can tie them into other things with Matter

00:15:10 ◼   ► or integrations, great.

00:15:12 ◼   ► But HomeKit is the goal.

00:15:15 ◼   ► It's just the system that I like the most.

00:15:17 ◼   ► And then if I have all of these devices in HomeKit,

00:15:19 ◼   ► then I can automate them to do interesting things together.

00:15:22 ◼   ► So I would like, if Upgradients have recommendations,

00:15:27 ◼   ► you can send them to me in the follow-up channel in Discord,

00:15:31 ◼   ► or send them to me on Twitter or whatever.

00:15:34 ◼   ► I would love to know products that you like.

00:15:39 ◼   ► I will say not Acara products.

00:15:42 ◼   ► I'll get to that in a second.

00:15:44 ◼   ► Or if you have YouTubers that you enjoy,

00:15:47 ◼   ► blogs, influencers in home automation,

00:15:50 ◼   ► focusing around HomeKit, I would love some recommendations

00:15:53 ◼   ► for people.

00:15:54 ◼   ► The reason I mentioned Acara, so I got an Acara hub

00:15:58 ◼   ► so I could use some of the leak sensors

00:16:00 ◼   ► that David Sparks recommended.

00:16:04 ◼   ► But I also have a HomeKit alarm system

00:16:07 ◼   ► by a company called Abode.

00:16:09 ◼   ► So this is like a, it's like a four alarm system,

00:16:13 ◼   ► kind of like a ring or something like that,

00:16:14 ◼   ► but it's all tied natively into HomeKit.

00:16:18 ◼   ► The problem with Acara is their hub works.

00:16:22 ◼   ► It tries to, it tells HomeKit it's an alarm system,

00:16:26 ◼   ► even if you don't use it for alarm system stuff.

00:16:29 ◼   ► So then I have two alarm systems in one HomeKit,

00:16:32 ◼   ► which causes tons of problems, I have learned,

00:16:36 ◼   ► because then you kind of have to set both for the,

00:16:38 ◼   ► it's like a whole nightmare.

00:16:39 ◼   ► So, Akara's, I don't think is gonna work for me

00:16:42 ◼   ► unless they have a hub that does not tell HomeKit

00:16:45 ◼   ► that it's an alarm, which is odd to me

00:16:48 ◼   ► that it's hub does that.

00:16:49 ◼   ► 'Cause you can set Akara's stuff up,

00:16:51 ◼   ► like you can buy all of Akara's sensors

00:16:54 ◼   ► and turn it into an alarm system, right?

00:16:56 ◼   ► Like, that's kind of what they're doing,

00:16:59 ◼   ► but it's odd to me that it will only let you do that or not.

00:17:03 ◼   ► And so if you have some kind of HomeKit alarm system,

00:17:06 ◼   ► and so part of the issue I'm having is,

00:17:08 ◼   ► you know you have these categories at the top now

00:17:11 ◼   ► of HomeKit, right?

00:17:12 ◼   ► So you've got lights and stuff like that,

00:17:14 ◼   ► where it tries to, you can tap them,

00:17:16 ◼   ► it takes you to each thing.

00:17:17 ◼   ► If I set my HomeKit alarm system, but not the Acara,

00:17:22 ◼   ► because I'm only using it for leak sensors,

00:17:24 ◼   ► it tells me that my alarm system is disabled

00:17:27 ◼   ► even when it isn't.

00:17:28 ◼   ► And so like at first glance, that's not helpful to me.

00:17:31 ◼   ► So I then would have to set both of them

00:17:34 ◼   ► and that's just a nightmare and I don't want to do that.

00:17:37 ◼   ► So anyway, I found LeakSenses

00:17:38 ◼   ► that actually just tied directly into HomeKit.

00:17:41 ◼   ► I'm gonna try those out as well.

00:17:42 ◼   ► But so if you're gonna tell me about Okara stuff,

00:17:46 ◼   ► I kind of can't use it unless you can also tell me

00:17:48 ◼   ► that they have a product where it doesn't do this.

00:17:50 ◼   ► My Googling has not helped me to try and find something

00:17:53 ◼   ► that doesn't do this.

00:17:54 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:17:57 ◼   ► I would love recommendations though if you enjoy stuff in the homekit world.

00:18:04 ◼   ► Yes I have checked out many episodes of automators and Mac power users so I assume I've got that,

00:18:11 ◼   ► but I would like from listeners too if they have any recommendations.

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00:20:11 ◼   ► up justice now? Yeah let's do it. All right so I've got a couple of things for you. Digitimes

00:20:16 ◼   ► is reporting that the production of Apple's Mixed Reality headset is set to begin in March of 2023.

00:20:22 ◼   ► Looking at high prices, low quantities, currently expecting around 700,000 to 800,000 shipments a

00:20:30 ◼   ► year. Despite low profitability on production of the initial headset, Apple's manufacturing

00:20:41 ◼   ► partners are said to be willing to work with Apple on the project to prove their technical

00:20:45 ◼   ► capabilities so they will be well positioned for future AR/VR products. What do you think

00:20:51 ◼   ► about this?

00:20:53 ◼   ► This product is so strange, right? It is, again, like, low quantities. So are they setting

00:21:02 ◼   ► the bar low here? Are they going to be like, well, this is really a first crack at it.

00:21:05 ◼   ► I think it's funny because I've always said Apple always wants to sell millions of anything

00:21:10 ◼   ► it makes. And here we are talking about low quantities under a million. I mean, it makes

00:21:18 ◼   ► me feel more and more that this is more of a tech demonstration and a developer product

00:21:22 ◼   ► than it is a, and maybe they'll, they'll, you know, sell it into some industries or

00:21:26 ◼   ► something, but like that it's not a consumer product. They don't expect it to be a consumer

00:21:31 ◼   ► product and they're perhaps even knowing what the price is. They want to, it's interesting

00:21:36 ◼   ► that they want to ship it and call it a product, but also that they may set expectations pretty

00:21:42 ◼   ► low for it. I think it's interesting because the other choice would be if you only think

00:21:47 ◼   ► you're going to be able to make less than a million of them, don't ship them. But I

00:21:51 ◼   ► guess that's what the story is going to be. And when DigiTimes says they will produce

00:21:58 ◼   ► it starting in March of 23, it does really make me wonder about the timeline of when

00:22:03 ◼   ► this is gonna be announced and when it's gonna ship.

00:22:05 ◼   ► 'Cause you and I have said for a while

00:22:07 ◼   ► that it will probably have its own event.

00:22:09 ◼   ► And I think that's probably right.

00:22:12 ◼   ► But I do wonder at what point the message becomes

00:22:16 ◼   ► very rapidly about it being a developer environment

00:22:20 ◼   ► for a future Apple platform as well.

00:22:22 ◼   ► And that it becomes more of a developer story.

00:22:25 ◼   ► And you're getting, you know,

00:22:27 ◼   ► if you're starting to produce them in March,

00:22:28 ◼   ► you're getting perilously close to just announcing it

00:22:31 ◼   ► WWDC. So I've had a new thought based on this, like just reading these rumors. I

00:22:37 ◼   ► could imagine now like an early 2023 announcement, they start the production

00:22:43 ◼   ► and then there's a big developer focus on it in June at WWDC. It's a pre-announcement

00:22:48 ◼   ► explaining what they're doing and then it ships in June maybe along with a lot

00:22:53 ◼   ► of talk at WWDC about it. Maybe, I mean that's what, because this is, let's be

00:22:59 ◼   ► honest, like who's buying this thing? Who's buying this thing? It's not meant

00:23:02 ◼   ► for the masses, clearly, at the price that it is, and they know that because they're

00:23:06 ◼   ► apparently, according to this report, not even expecting to make a lot of them

00:23:11 ◼   ► and ship a lot of them. So what's the purpose here? And I think the purpose

00:23:16 ◼   ► really is that Apple thinks this is a platform for the future, and so it wants

00:23:21 ◼   ► to get developer support behind it. And that's why I keep thinking

00:23:27 ◼   ► it's kind of a developer piece of developer hardware slash maybe some targeted industry slash

00:23:35 ◼   ► obviously people who just want the cool new thing and that's what this product is and it's not

00:23:41 ◼   ► it's not the one for the masses it's it's a couple generations away from being the one for the masses

00:23:48 ◼   ► um, I wonder if the, uh, reception to the MetaQuest Pro, which has been bad, I think,

00:23:55 ◼   ► uh, that people are like, "It's not really that great, uh, and it's so expensive," and I feel like

00:24:02 ◼   ► it's, maybe this is just me because I have a Quest 2, but it feels a little bit like the shine on that

00:24:09 ◼   ► old product remains, where they're like, "But this thing is fine, and it's way cheaper, and this thing

00:24:14 ◼   ► is so expensive and it's not that much better. I wonder if people who are working on this

00:24:18 ◼   ► inside Apple are also looking at that and saying, "Yeah, we're gonna need to do a cheaper

00:24:24 ◼   ► version of this real fast if we want people to use our platform." Because if you're a

00:24:28 ◼   ► developer, it's great that maybe Apple's saying, "The future is we're gonna do mixed reality

00:24:33 ◼   ► and AR and VR and here's our first one and we want you to develop for it." But part of

00:24:37 ◼   ► the developer's story is, "Who's gonna buy the work that I'm doing? Who's gonna buy the

00:24:42 ◼   ► software I'm building because developers aren't just making a living selling developer apps

00:24:48 ◼   ► to other developers, right? Like, there needs to be an audience for it. Who is that? And

00:24:53 ◼   ► when are they going to arrive? And if I'm a developer, it's great if you give me a $2,000

00:24:57 ◼   ► headset or you sell me a $2,000 headset now with the idea that this is going to be the

00:25:02 ◼   ► ground floor of Apple's next great computing platform. Okay, Apple, all right, but what

00:25:08 ◼   ► What is my expectation that this is going to be a product for the masses?

00:25:12 ◼   ► And one way for Apple to do that would be to say, or at least to be plotting in the

00:25:19 ◼   ► background that the product that they're going to release in 2024, at least one of those

00:25:24 ◼   ► products is going to be a more affordable version.

00:25:26 ◼   ► And maybe they offer the high-end version as well as a more affordable version.

00:25:30 ◼   ► I don't know whether they're going to say, "Nope, it's $2,000 or nothing," or what.

00:25:36 ◼   ► like if I was a developer, if I'm James Thompson and I'm like, "Finally, my Apple VR calculator/DICE

00:25:42 ◼   ► app is going to happen," and you know, James loves this new technology stuff, but if it's

00:25:46 ◼   ► a $2,500 headset and he has no reasonable expectation that anybody is going to be a

00:25:52 ◼   ► regular person buying it in the millions until 2024, 2025, that's a tough calculation to

00:25:58 ◼   ► make beyond your pure enthusiasm for Apple's platforms. So I'm still pretty skeptical of

00:26:03 ◼   ► this and I'm only more skeptical of it since the Facebook product, the meta product, seems

00:26:10 ◼   ► to have sort of been rushed out in order to beat Apple to the punch and has come out with

00:26:15 ◼   ► a thud. That's not great, like that, because Apple's gonna be way more expensive.

00:26:19 ◼   ► It seems like meta's issue is the software rather than the hardware. I'm not saying you're

00:26:25 ◼   ► saying anything different, but like, the hardware is fine.

00:26:29 ◼   ► The hardware seems fine, but there's nothing appreciably…

00:26:32 ◼   ► What I was struck by in all the reviews is that it's really more a nice Quest 2.

00:26:42 ◼   ► I think a lot of the reviewers are like, "Okay, so?"

00:26:46 ◼   ► But for what?

00:26:47 ◼   ► Could you have done a nicer Quest 3 with color cameras and a little bit upgraded screen,

00:26:53 ◼   ► but it was under $1000 and would that have been a better product than this thing where

00:26:57 ◼   ► they seem to have spared no expense, right?

00:26:59 ◼   ► But you're right, it's not just that the hardware,

00:27:02 ◼   ► the hardware seems okay.

00:27:04 ◼   ► They made some questionable decisions.

00:27:05 ◼   ► I think there's debatable things

00:27:06 ◼   ► in the choices that they made.

00:27:08 ◼   ► But what really seems weird is that people try it

00:27:10 ◼   ► and they're like, okay, but is it that much better

00:27:13 ◼   ► than the other thing?

00:27:14 ◼   ► And the answer seems to be not really.

00:27:18 ◼   ► And I wonder if there's a lesson there for Apple that like,

00:27:22 ◼   ► oh yeah, you might like a $500 VR headset,

00:27:24 ◼   ► but wait till you see a $2,500 headset.

00:27:27 ◼   ► And the response is gonna be, no,

00:27:30 ◼   ► I don't see where that extra 2000 is in value, right?

00:27:32 ◼   ► Like I know that it's there in the hardware,

00:27:34 ◼   ► but it doesn't provide enough value

00:27:36 ◼   ► for anybody to care about it.

00:27:37 ◼   ► And I think bottom line is nobody,

00:27:39 ◼   ► there's no such thing as a million plus,

00:27:43 ◼   ► millions, millions new platform product

00:27:48 ◼   ► that's a VR headset for 2,500 bucks, right?

00:27:51 ◼   ► Like it's not, that's not gonna happen.

00:27:53 ◼   ► It has to come down.

00:27:55 ◼   ► So I don't know, I think it's a real challenge

00:27:57 ◼   ► if you're a developer and you've been thinking

00:27:59 ◼   ► about developing for this platform.

00:28:01 ◼   ► Apple does really need to make the case

00:28:02 ◼   ► that this is the future and that eventually

00:28:04 ◼   ► a lot of people are gonna buy them.

00:28:06 ◼   ► Otherwise, not even developers are gonna,

00:28:09 ◼   ► why develop apps on a platform that's so expensive

00:28:11 ◼   ► that only the developers developing apps can buy it, right?

00:28:13 ◼   ► There needs to be an act two there and what is that?

00:28:18 ◼   ► - Well, maybe it's this.

00:28:19 ◼   ► Mark Gorman is saying that Apple is looking

00:28:22 ◼   ► for software engineers to further their work

00:28:24 ◼   ► in creating VR environments and the ability to watch video in the headset.

00:28:29 ◼   ► Two quotes from job listings via Mark Herman's newsletter.

00:28:34 ◼   ► The most interesting job listing is one that specifically calls out the development of

00:28:38 ◼   ► a 3D mixed reality world, suggesting that Apple is working on a virtual environment

00:28:42 ◼   ► that is similar to the metaverse, so don't expect Apple to embrace that term, and build

00:28:48 ◼   ► tools and frameworks to enable connected experiences in a 3D mixed reality world.

00:28:54 ◼   ► Mark also references NextVR, which was that company that Apple bought a really long time

00:28:58 ◼   ► ago now, which they were like filming sports games and stuff like that. And Apple acquired

00:29:03 ◼   ► that company for, it seems like technology and deals and all that kind of stuff.

00:29:08 ◼   ► Sure. I mean, they're laying the groundwork here. I think I keep coming back to the question

00:29:13 ◼   ► of what's the product that people are going to buy and what's the reason they're going

00:29:16 ◼   ► to buy it. And, and the fact is nobody's made a breakthrough VR headset. The Quest 2 is

00:29:21 ◼   ► probably the one that has broken through the most and for a while their meta had cut the price and

00:29:28 ◼   ► I don't think that would be considered even a hit product but it is at least a viable product and I

00:29:36 ◼   ► know that there's some stuff like the HTC Vive and I mean there are a handful but this is not

00:29:42 ◼   ► a category that's lighting the world on fire so I appreciate that Apple seems really committed

00:29:47 ◼   ► to building this thing, that's great. And maybe they believe that really has to have all of this

00:29:53 ◼   ► stuff in order for it to be viable. But the hardware, there have been no reports, right,

00:29:59 ◼   ► that Apple is expected at any point in the near future to make something that is going to be

00:30:06 ◼   ► priced in a way that lots of people are going to want to buy it. And that's troubling to me.

00:30:12 ◼   ► Like as much as they put into it, because it takes both, the calculation is complex, right?

00:30:16 ◼   ► The calculation is not just like, what do you do with it?

00:30:20 ◼   ► But, and then what do I pay for it?

00:30:22 ◼   ► And Apple seems to be working really hard

00:30:24 ◼   ► on the what do you do with it and what can it do?

00:30:27 ◼   ► But the other part of it, like, it just isn't there yet.

00:30:33 ◼   ► And what surprises me is that Apple seems to be devoted

00:30:37 ◼   ► to releasing a product so early that it's not a product

00:30:41 ◼   ► that anybody should buy, who isn't working in VR

00:30:46 ◼   ► or software development.

00:30:47 ◼   ► And that doesn't feel like Apple to me,

00:30:50 ◼   ► but that may be where they are.

00:30:51 ◼   ► - So this actually, it goes back to, I think,

00:30:55 ◼   ► what you were saying about Meta a moment ago, right?

00:30:58 ◼   ► With the Quest Pro of like, are they getting it out

00:31:01 ◼   ► just so they can be Apple?

00:31:03 ◼   ► Are Apple going to release this product

00:31:07 ◼   ► because they think they have to right now?

00:31:09 ◼   ► And if they do, if that is what they're doing,

00:31:12 ◼   ► that is not the Apple that we have known in the past, right?

00:31:17 ◼   ► Where like typically there's this old adage of like,

00:31:20 ◼   ► Apple wait until they've got the thing

00:31:23 ◼   ► that's gonna leapfrog everyone else.

00:31:25 ◼   ► So you've got to hope that they've got that

00:31:26 ◼   ► because if they're doing this because they're like,

00:31:28 ◼   ► oh, well, you know, we've kind of got to get into this market

00:31:31 ◼   ► so we like can stake our claim.

00:31:33 ◼   ► That's not the right way around

00:31:35 ◼   ► that they normally do things.

00:31:37 ◼   ► - I think part of the motivation here

00:31:39 ◼   ► is that there is a competitor out there that views VR as all—at least has up to now,

00:31:47 ◼   ► we'll see because, you know, Meta has changed. They laid off a bunch of people, including

00:31:50 ◼   ► some people in VR development, and Mark Zuckerberg has gotten a lot of criticism for the amount

00:31:56 ◼   ► of money he's putting into it, but up to now Apple's—

00:31:58 ◼   ► He's still pressing on it though, even with those layoffs.

00:32:00 ◼   ► I know. And Apple is looking at a competitor that almost views VR as an existential crisis

00:32:06 ◼   ► for their company, that Meta's future is VR. And Apple looks at that and says, "Okay,

00:32:13 ◼   ► they have raised the stakes here. And if we don't get into this game now, even though

00:32:17 ◼   ► it's early, it's too early, if we don't get into this game now, we'll be too far behind."

00:32:23 ◼   ► And I'll point to the fact that Meta keeps buying. The Quest has been a successful enough

00:32:28 ◼   ► platform that it's allowed Meta to identify successes on VR platforms and buy them, right?

00:32:35 ◼   ► talked about this. They bought Supernatural, the exercise thing, uh, did they buy Beat

00:32:40 ◼   ► Saber?

00:32:41 ◼   ► Don't think that one went through. They bought Beat Saber.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Or they tried to buy Supernatural and there were questions about it. So this is like,

00:32:46 ◼   ► Meta really wants to control this, and if you're Apple, I could see strategically, you're

00:32:51 ◼   ► like, "We gotta get out there." Even if it's just a developer kit and it's not something

00:32:54 ◼   ► for the masses. What they risk, messaging-wise, is coming out with something nobody wants

00:32:59 ◼   ► and everybody's saying, "Oh, it's a flop," and never revisiting it, right? That's the,

00:33:04 ◼   ► That is the danger.

00:33:05 ◼   ► Because it's Apple, and everybody pays attention to Apple, I'm not sure Apple can sneak a product

00:33:10 ◼   ► by and say, "Well, it's not for you."

00:33:13 ◼   ► It's like if Apple tried to come out with the only Mac that they made was a Mac Pro.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Nobody's gonna use the Mac then, right?

00:33:19 ◼   ► It's just not gonna happen.

00:33:20 ◼   ► Maybe some people at the very high end will buy it, but that's not a viable platform.

00:33:24 ◼   ► Or if the only Apple Watch was the Apple Watch Ultra, right?

00:33:27 ◼   ► That wouldn't make any sense.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Yeah, but if they feel like they have to be out there, this is...

00:33:31 ◼   ► I'm gonna be really interested with how they talk about this

00:33:34 ◼   ► because one way you could see this product release is,

00:33:37 ◼   ► we believe in the future of VR.

00:33:39 ◼   ► And so we have decided to make the best VR headset ever made

00:33:44 ◼   ► and it's early in the growth of VR

00:33:47 ◼   ► and we expect that this will mostly be of interest

00:33:49 ◼   ► to industry and developers right now,

00:33:52 ◼   ► but in the future, this is gonna be a huge market

00:33:54 ◼   ► and so we're gonna get started now.

00:33:56 ◼   ► And if they talk about it in that way

00:33:58 ◼   ► and really try to set the bar, honestly, very low,

00:34:02 ◼   ► then maybe I can see it.

00:34:03 ◼   ► But I do think that they're being motivated

00:34:05 ◼   ► by the fact that there are big pocketed competitors

00:34:08 ◼   ► who feel like they have to do this to survive.

00:34:12 ◼   ► And Apple doesn't have to do this to survive necessarily,

00:34:15 ◼   ► but Apple doesn't wanna let this opportunity get away.

00:34:19 ◼   ► And so you end up having to raise the stakes yourself

00:34:21 ◼   ► to match them.

00:34:22 ◼   ► - And the reason we're here

00:34:23 ◼   ► and the reason we're having these conversations is

00:34:26 ◼   ► everyone's looking for the next platform, right?

00:34:28 ◼   ► Like that's, everyone's looking for it.

00:34:30 ◼   ► - Right, and Facebook didn't get a phone, right?

00:34:33 ◼   ► Facebook doesn't have a platform.

00:34:34 ◼   ► They tried and failed, and so now they want the next one.

00:34:37 ◼   ► - And this is the only one on the horizon.

00:34:40 ◼   ► Like, it might not be the next big platform.

00:34:43 ◼   ► - It might not.

00:34:44 ◼   ► - But there isn't another one, right?

00:34:47 ◼   ► There just isn't one.

00:34:48 ◼   ► - In fact, I would say, I said this about the car

00:34:51 ◼   ► like five years ago, and I'll say it about VR.

00:34:56 ◼   ► It's hard actually not to believe that at some point,

00:35:00 ◼   ► if we play the infinite timescale game,

00:35:03 ◼   ► it's hard not to believe that the miniaturization

00:35:06 ◼   ► of technology will not continue to the point

00:35:08 ◼   ► where the devices get smaller and smaller

00:35:11 ◼   ► and we have more subtle inputs on our bodies

00:35:14 ◼   ► and direct input into our senses via glasses or contacts

00:35:19 ◼   ► or whatever it is, or lasers and drones

00:35:21 ◼   ► that fire lasers in your eyes, I don't know.

00:35:24 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:35:25 ◼   ► Like, but, I don't want it, but maybe it'll happen.

00:35:29 ◼   ► So it's hard if you put on your like, "I'm a futurist," that kind of hat.

00:35:37 ◼   ► It's got like a propeller on it, but it's a futuristic propeller.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And you say, "Long time scale."

00:35:44 ◼   ► I think it's hard to argue that integrating more directly with senses is not a strong

00:35:53 ◼   ► possibility as where the future of computing devices goes. I mean, not necessarily. I think

00:36:00 ◼   ► there's biological reasons why it won't be, right? It's hard to get into the eyes, because

00:36:05 ◼   ► you have to have something hanging in front of your face, and that is not easy. But in,

00:36:13 ◼   ► and so maybe people will reject it and prefer little screens and stuff that they can hold

00:36:16 ◼   ► and fold and unfurl and all of that. But I don't know, I think it's not a bad, what I'm

00:36:22 ◼   ► saying is I think it's not a bad bet to make if you're a tech company that has so much

00:36:26 ◼   ► money that you don't know what to do with it and you know that it's not going to be

00:36:30 ◼   ► like the iPhone Apple was able to kind of do on their own but now it's like everybody

00:36:35 ◼   ► knows this is the category and so you're either in or you're out and the stakes are really

00:36:39 ◼   ► high I don't know if it's let me put it this way for Apple I think it's a good bet because

00:36:45 ◼   ► they've got the money and they don't want to be left behind and and become irrelevant

00:36:49 ◼   ► - And they've got everything you need.

00:36:51 ◼   ► They've got the operating systems, they have apps,

00:36:53 ◼   ► they have app stores, they have the integrations

00:36:56 ◼   ► of other devices.

00:36:57 ◼   ► If they didn't do this, if they weren't doing this at all,

00:36:59 ◼   ► I'd be worried, right?

00:37:00 ◼   ► Like it makes sense for them to try.

00:37:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, Apple is a rich guy at a high stakes poker game.

00:37:05 ◼   ► Facebook feels like it's like a super sweaty guy

00:37:08 ◼   ► who is putting all of his money on this bet.

00:37:11 ◼   ► And if he doesn't win, he's bankrupt.

00:37:16 ◼   ► They are, but I am a lot less confident in their other businesses surviving into the

00:37:21 ◼   ► future as I am Apple's business surviving into the future.

00:37:26 ◼   ► I don't think you're wrong there at all, and I think that's why they're doing this anyway,

00:37:30 ◼   ► right? Like, I think Zuckerberg knows that he owns declining businesses. Like, they're

00:37:36 ◼   ► very powerful, but they're not going to continue going up.

00:37:40 ◼   ► Right. And if I'm Apple, it's more like this is a hedge against—this is the one technology

00:37:44 ◼   ► that could make the iPhone irrelevant.

00:37:46 ◼   ► So we need to put money into this as a hedge, right?

00:37:48 ◼   ► That's what it is.

00:37:50 ◼   ► But I don't think it's unrealistic in the long run.

00:37:53 ◼   ► But I'll also point out that people were talking about,

00:37:55 ◼   ► like Doug Engelbart designed the mouse in the what,

00:37:58 ◼   ► late 60s?

00:38:00 ◼   ► And so you're talking about 16 years-ish

00:38:05 ◼   ► before the Mac was the first kind of viable product

00:38:09 ◼   ► to popularize the mouse as a thing.

00:38:11 ◼   ► And I just keep being reminded of like,

00:38:14 ◼   ► And there was networking in the '60s and the '70s,

00:38:16 ◼   ► but it didn't really go anywhere until the '90s.

00:38:19 ◼   ► And personal computers started out in the '70s,

00:38:23 ◼   ► but weren't super commonplace,

00:38:26 ◼   ► like ubiquitous on everybody's desk in every office

00:38:30 ◼   ► until the '90s, right?

00:38:31 ◼   ► So you're talking a lot of times these things,

00:38:34 ◼   ► everybody knows that that's where it's going,

00:38:36 ◼   ► but it doesn't mean it goes there fast

00:38:38 ◼   ► because of all the technical reasons.

00:38:39 ◼   ► Even if we move faster with our tech now,

00:38:42 ◼   ► I think it's not unreasonable to look at this VR stuff

00:38:44 ◼   ► and say, it's important to be here,

00:38:47 ◼   ► but like is Apple gonna make the iPhone or iPod

00:38:50 ◼   ► or whatever of VR goggles in 2025,

00:38:54 ◼   ► in the mid 2020s, in the 2020s?

00:38:57 ◼   ► And I don't know if anyone is.

00:38:59 ◼   ► I mean, this could very well be everybody spending

00:39:02 ◼   ► a lot of money to be the last one standing

00:39:04 ◼   ► when they finally can get the technology

00:39:06 ◼   ► where it needs to be in 2030.

00:39:09 ◼   ► And that is not something that,

00:39:11 ◼   ► like it's gonna make the press coverage of the meantime

00:39:13 ◼   ► of all the money being spent on this pretty brutal,

00:39:16 ◼   ► but I'm not convinced that AR and VR isn't that far off.

00:39:20 ◼   ► - Well, I will say, because it's just kind of funny on time,

00:39:23 ◼   ► the original Oculus Kickstarter was in 2016 in January.

00:39:28 ◼   ► So it's been nearly seven years since that.

00:39:34 ◼   ► This is just, I think that was like a funny thing of like,

00:39:37 ◼   ► oh, it took 16 years.

00:39:38 ◼   ► well, we're about halfway from in that idea.

00:39:42 ◼   ► So another five or six years.

00:39:44 ◼   ► - Right.

00:39:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it could happen.

00:39:46 ◼   ► - Right, but I'm just saying that I think

00:39:48 ◼   ► that there's some perspective here about like,

00:39:50 ◼   ► don't necessarily figure,

00:39:51 ◼   ► like it's hard to look at this stuff and say,

00:39:53 ◼   ► oh yeah, it's right on the verge of being popular.

00:39:55 ◼   ► And it's gonna go through a cycle

00:39:57 ◼   ► like personal computers did,

00:39:59 ◼   ► which I think not like smartphones did.

00:40:02 ◼   ► I think smartphones happened a lot faster

00:40:03 ◼   ► where people are like, oh, wait a second,

00:40:05 ◼   ► that my phone could, let's do that.

00:40:07 ◼   ► Like, that's gonna be my next phone.

00:40:09 ◼   ► But personal computers, it was very much like,

00:40:12 ◼   ► it's expensive, it's for hobbyists, it's for universities.

00:40:16 ◼   ► We're gonna try to expose kids to it in school

00:40:19 ◼   ► by having one, just one,

00:40:22 ◼   ► that kids will cluster around or take and turn, right?

00:40:26 ◼   ► Like, and then it was, okay,

00:40:28 ◼   ► some businesses are gonna have a few in a few places.

00:40:32 ◼   ► And then some people who've got enough money,

00:40:35 ◼   ► like media moguls are gonna buy power books

00:40:38 ◼   ► and that's gonna be a thing,

00:40:40 ◼   ► but that it really did take a long time

00:40:44 ◼   ► to get to the point where it's sort of like,

00:40:45 ◼   ► there's a computer on every desk

00:40:47 ◼   ► and everybody's got a laptop

00:40:48 ◼   ► and every house has a computer.

00:40:49 ◼   ► Like it took a long time for it to grow like that

00:40:54 ◼   ► because you had to get the prices down

00:40:57 ◼   ► and have the reason that you would do it up

00:41:00 ◼   ► to the point where you could get there.

00:41:02 ◼   ► And in some parts of the world that never got there

00:41:03 ◼   ► and the smartphone is what got it there.

00:41:05 ◼   ► So, VR feels a little bit like that to me.

00:41:08 ◼   ► I don't feel like we're on the verge

00:41:09 ◼   ► of a VR breakthrough here.

00:41:10 ◼   ► I think that this is all about

00:41:12 ◼   ► companies spending a lot of money

00:41:13 ◼   ► to shorten that time to a viable product.

00:41:16 ◼   ► But in the meantime, you have Apple coming out

00:41:18 ◼   ► with a $2,500 headset, and it's just, I don't know.

00:41:23 ◼   ► It could be a very cool product,

00:41:26 ◼   ► but how cool is it if nobody is gonna buy it, right?

00:41:30 ◼   ► That's not, part of what makes a product successful

00:41:33 ◼   ► is that people buy it, right?

00:41:35 ◼   ► It can't just be good.

00:41:36 ◼   ► Even if it's good, if nobody's gonna buy it,

00:41:39 ◼   ► it's a failure.

00:41:40 ◼   ► - Just as a clarification from the Discord,

00:41:45 ◼   ► the Kickstarter was in 2012.

00:41:48 ◼   ► The last update was in 2016,

00:41:50 ◼   ► took many years to ship. - There you go.

00:41:51 ◼   ► - But the idea of like, well, it's been 10 years now,

00:41:53 ◼   ► it's been 10 years since the Oculus Rift.

00:41:56 ◼   ► - 10 years since the Kickstarter, right?

00:41:59 ◼   ► - But that was since it was viable, right?

00:42:01 ◼   ► They were talking about the viability thing,

00:42:02 ◼   ► not release, right?

00:42:03 ◼   ► because you know, saying that the viable design

00:42:05 ◼   ► of the mouse was 16 years before the mouse was in wide use.

00:42:10 ◼   ► So it's just, it's fun.

00:42:11 ◼   ► - I wanted to mention one thing, which is,

00:42:13 ◼   ► I don't want to sound like I'm down on VR

00:42:15 ◼   ► because I think that VR has some uses.

00:42:16 ◼   ► I have said on here before, I have a Quest 2.

00:42:20 ◼   ► I like it, it's nice.

00:42:23 ◼   ► It's not great, right?

00:42:25 ◼   ► It's not like, oh my God, the resolution,

00:42:27 ◼   ► everything's kind of grainy and all that,

00:42:28 ◼   ► but it works really well, the head tracking works well.

00:42:31 ◼   ► I never feel kind of like motion sick in it.

00:42:34 ◼   ► I think it keeps up the illusion remarkably well.

00:42:37 ◼   ► And it was relatively cheap.

00:42:41 ◼   ► It was relatively affordable

00:42:42 ◼   ► as a kind of a under the Christmas tree present

00:42:46 ◼   ► a couple of years ago.

00:42:47 ◼   ► That is a reason to be optimistic, I think,

00:42:53 ◼   ► because it suggests that there are compromises you can make

00:42:57 ◼   ► to make a product that is more affordable.

00:43:00 ◼   ► and there are a lot of games on it that are fun.

00:43:02 ◼   ► I feel like they're figuring out with that product

00:43:06 ◼   ► sort of what is good on a VR headset.

00:43:09 ◼   ► And it's a standalone, which is really nice

00:43:11 ◼   ► as opposed to the PSVR that I had that was,

00:43:13 ◼   ► you had to tether it and there were a million cables.

00:43:15 ◼   ► There's a lot going for it,

00:43:16 ◼   ► even though it has not set the world on fire.

00:43:20 ◼   ► I think that I'm encouraged by the success

00:43:23 ◼   ► and quality of that product.

00:43:25 ◼   ► And it says to me that while Apple and Facebook

00:43:28 ◼   ► seem to be building the high-end headsets here in order to show the possibility of this.

00:43:33 ◼   ► There's room for more affordable headsets. And I hope that Apple dares to go there, right?

00:43:40 ◼   ► Because I think that that's going to be required. I think you're going to need to have the – Mark

00:43:46 ◼   ► Germin keeps talking about the Apple Reality Pro and Reality One as the name for these

00:43:51 ◼   ► products. I would say I think it would be good for Apple to have a Reality Pro and then

00:43:57 ◼   ► and follow it up with a Reality One, if you get my meaning.

00:44:02 ◼   ► And the Reality One would be a lot cheaper

00:44:05 ◼   ► than the Reality Pro.

00:44:06 ◼   ► I think they need to get there.

00:44:08 ◼   ► - And I'll just stay before we move on too.

00:44:10 ◼   ► I am, I think even more than you,

00:44:13 ◼   ► I am more optimistic about this as a platform

00:44:16 ◼   ► just in general in technology.

00:44:17 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that AR/VR

00:44:20 ◼   ► is necessarily the next smartphone,

00:44:24 ◼   ► but I think it's the next tablet, the next watch, right?

00:44:27 ◼   ► Like I think it is a market with a lot of potential.

00:44:32 ◼   ► - Right, another $20 million, $30 million a year

00:44:35 ◼   ► business for Apple in five or 10 years, yeah.

00:44:38 ◼   ► - And I am personally more into mixed reality and VR

00:44:43 ◼   ► than pure AR.

00:44:45 ◼   ► Like I worry a little bit about pure AR,

00:44:48 ◼   ► like constantly visually connected to a computer

00:44:52 ◼   ► that I don't like so much.

00:44:53 ◼   ► I like the intentionality of the bigger headsets,

00:44:56 ◼   ► but we'll see where it goes.

00:44:57 ◼   ► But that's not all on this for today.

00:45:00 ◼   ► - No, there's more.

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00:47:05 ◼   ► So you mentioned earlier, like, where is the value gonna be in this headset, right?

00:47:12 ◼   ► Like if it's gonna be $2,000, $3,000.

00:47:16 ◼   ► So why don't we pick some things?

00:47:18 ◼   ► Why don't we spend Apple's money for them?

00:47:21 ◼   ► We're gonna invent some things that might be on the device.

00:47:25 ◼   ► I did send you a message over the weekend.

00:47:26 ◼   ► I said, "I got an idea.

00:47:27 ◼   ► Why don't we talk about what could be in this thing?

00:47:30 ◼   ► What could be in this thing?"

00:47:32 ◼   ► Could I start off with what I think is one of the reasons that they're making a lot

00:47:35 ◼   ► lot of decisions that they're making, very high resolution display inside of

00:47:40 ◼   ► the headset. I think this is the key factor here because you know one of the

00:47:47 ◼   ► things that people are saying about the Quest Pro is like so many things are

00:47:51 ◼   ► better about the hardware but the displays are still not high resolution

00:47:55 ◼   ► enough that you can still kind of see pixels. I mean we've seen lots of rumors

00:48:01 ◼   ► that suggest 8K displays, right? An 8K display for every eye.

00:48:05 ◼   ► Dual 8K displays.

00:48:08 ◼   ► And this could, if they're building around this,

00:48:11 ◼   ► it will make the experience better, you would hope,

00:48:13 ◼   ► and they have that foveated rendering thing,

00:48:15 ◼   ► which PlayStation is going to be doing,

00:48:19 ◼   ► and this is where it uses eye tracking to see where you're looking

00:48:23 ◼   ► and then just render what's in front of you,

00:48:25 ◼   ► which brings down some of the processing power required,

00:48:27 ◼   ► especially if you're going to have so many pixels.

00:48:29 ◼   ► This is, if they do this high resolution display stuff,

00:48:33 ◼   ► it's going to have a couple of knock-on effects.

00:48:35 ◼   ► One, it will be very expensive and difficult to produce.

00:48:38 ◼   ► Two, I mean, you can just throw battery out the window,

00:48:43 ◼   ► right, which suggests, I mean,

00:48:46 ◼   ► there have been rumors in the past about the idea

00:48:48 ◼   ► of this needing to potentially be tethered.

00:48:51 ◼   ► This is going back a long time.

00:48:52 ◼   ► - I haven't seen, it sounds to me like Apple has decided

00:48:55 ◼   ► that this has to all be on board,

00:48:57 ◼   ► that nobody wants to be connected to a cord.

00:48:59 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:49:00 ◼   ► But it could need to be tethered,

00:49:02 ◼   ► or it could need to be tethered to battery,

00:49:03 ◼   ► or it may just have a very short battery life

00:49:06 ◼   ► if it's gonna be driving these kinds of displays.

00:49:09 ◼   ► Could also make it heavy, right, with a larger battery.

00:49:12 ◼   ► So who knows, right?

00:49:13 ◼   ► But I think that going to those kinds of,

00:49:16 ◼   ► that kind of display technology

00:49:18 ◼   ► is going to have a lot of interesting knock-on effects,

00:49:21 ◼   ► but the hope would be, I guess from their side,

00:49:24 ◼   ► of like, if we go to this level,

00:49:26 ◼   ► we can show a higher quality experience,

00:49:29 ◼   ► and that's what will push them forward.

00:49:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, clearly.

00:49:33 ◼   ► So that brings up something that I wanted to mention,

00:49:35 ◼   ► which is content in terms of like video content.

00:49:40 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:49:41 ◼   ► - And I know we mentioned this in passing

00:49:43 ◼   ► from that Mark Gurman report,

00:49:45 ◼   ► but I feel like this has been clear for a while.

00:49:47 ◼   ► First off, so many movies still get made in 3D

00:49:51 ◼   ► or converted to 3D,

00:49:53 ◼   ► and they often have IMAX versions

00:49:55 ◼   ► with stretched aspect ratios, they're very tall.

00:49:58 ◼   ► And I was thinking that if I'm Apple and I've got a streaming service and I've got a video store

00:50:05 ◼   ► that one of the things I'm gonna do for any headset that I produce is I'm going to get a

00:50:11 ◼   ► complete library of all 3d

00:50:13 ◼   ► movies and IMAX movies that are out there and have that available and

00:50:17 ◼   ► potentially even if you already bought it on iTunes you get it in this other form or maybe you have to buy it separately or

00:50:23 ◼   ► You can rent it or whatever. But and I know you're sitting there thinking

00:50:28 ◼   ► "Yeah, but who wants to watch a movie with a headset on?"

00:50:30 ◼   ► Like, I hear you, but I'll tell you

00:50:33 ◼   ► that even on the low resolution Oculus Quest,

00:50:36 ◼   ► I have watched some stuff in 3D.

00:50:38 ◼   ► - It's pretty good.

00:50:40 ◼   ► - It's pretty good.

00:50:41 ◼   ► It's pretty good.

00:50:42 ◼   ► It is, it's not something I will wanna do all day long,

00:50:45 ◼   ► but for the length of a movie or a TV show,

00:50:48 ◼   ► whether it was on an airplane or something,

00:50:51 ◼   ► or if I'm just sitting at home,

00:50:52 ◼   ► and I've got immersive, presumably, audio as well,

00:50:55 ◼   ► like, just as a virtual movie theater

00:50:57 ◼   ► that's showing you something that the equivalent

00:50:59 ◼   ► of like 4K quality and it's in 3D, it's kind of fun.

00:51:04 ◼   ► And in fact, I would say it's a way better experience

00:51:07 ◼   ► than sitting in a movie theater with cardboard 3D glasses

00:51:10 ◼   ► over your eyes because it's bright,

00:51:13 ◼   ► because it's not cutting, it's not a single projection

00:51:16 ◼   ► with two different fields in it,

00:51:17 ◼   ► it's two different eyepieces

00:51:19 ◼   ► with two different sets of frame in them.

00:51:22 ◼   ► And so it's for me a better experience than movie theater 3D

00:51:27 ◼   ► even at the reduced quality of the Quest 2.

00:51:29 ◼   ► So imagining a much higher resolution screen

00:51:32 ◼   ► on an Apple device,

00:51:33 ◼   ► I think that that could be really good content.

00:51:36 ◼   ► They would also presumably do,

00:51:38 ◼   ► start saying, no, we need to do 3D conversions

00:51:41 ◼   ► of all of our Apple TV+ content as well,

00:51:44 ◼   ► so that stuff's gonna be available,

00:51:45 ◼   ► or a lot of it is gonna be available in 3D,

00:51:47 ◼   ► so if you watch it this way, it's gonna blow you away.

00:51:49 ◼   ► And I think that Apple, as we've talked about here a lot,

00:51:52 ◼   ► Apple's interest in doing sports coverage

00:51:55 ◼   ► is definitely a place where not just the 3D aspect

00:51:58 ◼   ► that's fundamental to having a headset,

00:52:00 ◼   ► but also an immersive VR kind of idea

00:52:04 ◼   ► where you could choose to have,

00:52:06 ◼   ► like they offer their sports broadcast,

00:52:08 ◼   ► but they also offer a VR version

00:52:10 ◼   ► that perhaps puts you in a different spot

00:52:12 ◼   ► or lets you choose where you are in the stadium

00:52:14 ◼   ► and watch it as if you're watching it from a seat

00:52:17 ◼   ► with, you know, choose your audio.

00:52:19 ◼   ► There are lots of things they could experiment with.

00:52:21 ◼   ► Some of them are gonna be dumb

00:52:22 ◼   ► and some of them might be great,

00:52:24 ◼   ► But why not experiment with that,

00:52:25 ◼   ► especially if you're producing your own sports programming

00:52:29 ◼   ► as Apple sounds like they're going to be doing.

00:52:32 ◼   ► So I just, I wanted to throw that in there

00:52:34 ◼   ► as a thing that I think would help

00:52:36 ◼   ► any future Apple headset is just getting

00:52:39 ◼   ► some video content for it.

00:52:40 ◼   ► - I mean, they have the ability to create video content.

00:52:43 ◼   ► They could create specific video content, right?

00:52:46 ◼   ► Like, why not do a TV show that's shot in video?

00:52:50 ◼   ► They could do that if they wanted to,

00:52:52 ◼   ► like from a fixed position,

00:52:53 ◼   ► and you could look around you.

00:52:55 ◼   ► I don't know if it would be entertaining,

00:52:57 ◼   ► but you could do it.

00:52:58 ◼   ► By the way, I did a quick Google search.

00:53:00 ◼   ► So there was a report in the information.

00:53:02 ◼   ► This is what messed me up.

00:53:04 ◼   ► There were two options that Apple were looking at.

00:53:07 ◼   ► One was tethered with a base station

00:53:08 ◼   ► featuring a chip that went on to become the M1 Ultra,

00:53:12 ◼   ► and one was a standalone unit,

00:53:13 ◼   ► and it seems like they were going down the route

00:53:15 ◼   ► of the standalone unit.

00:53:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, with an M2, essentially.

00:53:19 ◼   ► - So that was what mixed me up.

00:53:21 ◼   ► It was in the works at some point,

00:53:23 ◼   ► but it seems like it's probably not what

00:53:25 ◼   ► they're gonna go with.

00:53:26 ◼   ► As talking about content,

00:53:28 ◼   ► I think an easy one for me, spatial audio, right?

00:53:31 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:53:32 ◼   ► - They're building some speakers into the headset

00:53:34 ◼   ► and have some kind of spatial audio feature.

00:53:36 ◼   ► Seems like an obvious one.

00:53:38 ◼   ► Apple will say they've got spatial audio in everything,

00:53:40 ◼   ► right, it's in your laptop.

00:53:42 ◼   ► So there's no reason why they wouldn't want

00:53:43 ◼   ► to do it here too.

00:53:45 ◼   ► - And I would think AirPods integration as well.

00:53:47 ◼   ► So if you don't want to have the,

00:53:49 ◼   ► 'cause I don't think it's gonna be the thing

00:53:50 ◼   ► where you put it on and then it has things

00:53:52 ◼   ► that you stick over your ears, right?

00:53:55 ◼   ► Instead what they'll do is, and the Quest does this,

00:53:57 ◼   ► it's got speakers in it that are right by your ears

00:53:59 ◼   ► that give you that kind of effect.

00:54:01 ◼   ► And if you want, you can put headphones on

00:54:04 ◼   ► and it's a much more immersive effect.

00:54:05 ◼   ► And so I imagine that that'll be the argument

00:54:07 ◼   ► as you put in some AirPods and they automatically pair

00:54:10 ◼   ► and now you get the kind of complete lockout experience

00:54:13 ◼   ► so people near you cannot hear the sounds

00:54:15 ◼   ► that you're hearing 'cause they're just,

00:54:17 ◼   ► it's almost like open backed headphones kind of thing.

00:54:19 ◼   ► it's like if you're not wearing headphones

00:54:20 ◼   ► and you're doing a VR thing,

00:54:21 ◼   ► other people around you can hear you

00:54:22 ◼   ► because they're literally speakers out into the air,

00:54:25 ◼   ► but you pop in some AirPods.

00:54:27 ◼   ► And yeah, in fact, I would argue spatial audio

00:54:30 ◼   ► probably was prioritized at Apple because of this project.

00:54:35 ◼   ► That's my feeling is that this is a,

00:54:38 ◼   ► this feels very much like it's something

00:54:39 ◼   ► that went part and parcel with the headset project

00:54:42 ◼   ► to do spatial placement of audio.

00:54:44 ◼   ► - Can I throw in another one real quick?

00:54:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, sure. - 'Cause I think

00:54:48 ◼   ► you had it too.

00:54:49 ◼   ► Not a draft.

00:54:50 ◼   ► You just mentioned the idea of like, well maybe they created it for VR, Memoji.

00:54:55 ◼   ► I think could have also been partly created as this idea of like, we need to create lifelike

00:55:00 ◼   ► avatars that are expressive and we want to have years of tracking faces and learning

00:55:08 ◼   ► how that can work to create these avatars.

00:55:11 ◼   ► This could be a big, big thing for them.

00:55:14 ◼   ► have been really made fun of for the way that their avatars look, right? This is going back

00:55:19 ◼   ► a while now. And if Apple can make Memoji work well and work well in an expressive way

00:55:27 ◼   ► inside of VR, that could be a really big deal for them.

00:55:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree. In fact, I will then ping-pong off of what you just said and talk about collaboration.

00:55:38 ◼   ► 'cause I think that this is, so we saw with,

00:55:40 ◼   ► we've seen the latest round of OS updates

00:55:43 ◼   ► that Apple announced in June,

00:55:45 ◼   ► they've started to lean into this idea of cloud,

00:55:48 ◼   ► iCloud based basically collaboration.

00:55:50 ◼   ► And what's funny about it is that it's,

00:55:53 ◼   ► it's all on Apple's platforms or the web.

00:55:55 ◼   ► And yet, they wanna make it a thing.

00:55:59 ◼   ► And so I keep thinking about, okay,

00:56:01 ◼   ► so they've got like, they've got iCloud document

00:56:03 ◼   ► collaboration, they've got SharePlay, they've got Memoji,

00:56:07 ◼   ► they've got FaceTime, roll it all together, right?

00:56:11 ◼   ► And yes, it probably means things like,

00:56:14 ◼   ► oh, and isn't there a rumor about how they're gonna make it

00:56:17 ◼   ► so that you can just do Memojis with,

00:56:20 ◼   ► or is that, or can you already do that?

00:56:22 ◼   ► You can already do FaceTime with a Memoji

00:56:24 ◼   ► instead of you, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:26 ◼   ► - So we're already there.

00:56:27 ◼   ► I think it's Zoom announced

00:56:29 ◼   ► that you're gonna be able to do that on Zoom now.

00:56:30 ◼   ► You're gonna have like a virtual avatar instead of you.

00:56:33 ◼   ► So that's a thing.

00:56:35 ◼   ► So the idea of having a FaceTime conversation

00:56:37 ◼   ► where one person's holding a phone

00:56:39 ◼   ► and looking at the camera

00:56:40 ◼   ► and another person is emoji using a headset,

00:56:42 ◼   ► like that's fine.

00:56:44 ◼   ► Zoom has already done things like this,

00:56:47 ◼   ► but like Apple's got the whole,

00:56:48 ◼   ► all their photographic engine stuff

00:56:51 ◼   ► where they pull subjects out of the background,

00:56:55 ◼   ► which might be a more sophisticated version

00:56:57 ◼   ► of what Zoom does,

00:56:58 ◼   ► where they detect your background

00:57:00 ◼   ► and then they pull you out of it.

00:57:01 ◼   ► And Zoom even has a mode that's hilarious

00:57:03 ◼   ► where they like put you in a setting.

00:57:05 ◼   ► It's like everybody in the meeting is at a table,

00:57:07 ◼   ► even though it's just a cut out of their body of the video

00:57:10 ◼   ► without the background. - Teams does this too,

00:57:11 ◼   ► of like making it look like you're in an auditorium

00:57:13 ◼   ► or something. - Right.

00:57:14 ◼   ► So like, it's not hard to imagine

00:57:16 ◼   ► that Apple might use some of that

00:57:18 ◼   ► to try and create kind of collaboration environments

00:57:21 ◼   ► where people are placed in physical spaces in VR.

00:57:26 ◼   ► And some of them have emoji

00:57:28 ◼   ► and some of them might even be people's video images.

00:57:31 ◼   ► Like I can see them going down that route now.

00:57:33 ◼   ► Is that something people want?

00:57:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is Horizon Workrooms.

00:57:37 ◼   ► This is what Horizon Workrooms is.

00:57:39 ◼   ► - It is Horizon Workrooms,

00:57:41 ◼   ► is what Facebook or Meta has been trying to do.

00:57:45 ◼   ► But I could definitely see the idea of,

00:57:47 ◼   ► and SharePlay I mentioned,

00:57:49 ◼   ► because I talked about movies, right?

00:57:51 ◼   ► Well, one thing you could do with watching a movie,

00:57:54 ◼   ► I can totally imagine Apple doing this,

00:57:56 ◼   ► is you watch it with your friends in VR with SharePlay.

00:58:00 ◼   ► And if you've never done any of this,

00:58:04 ◼   ► the way I watch video on a Quest is in an app

00:58:08 ◼   ► that puts you in a movie theater with a screen.

00:58:11 ◼   ► And you can set how close to the screen you wanna be,

00:58:14 ◼   ► but they don't put the movie all the way,

00:58:16 ◼   ► 'cause it's really bad.

00:58:17 ◼   ► That's like you're standing in front of the movie screen.

00:58:19 ◼   ► Nobody watches a movie that way.

00:58:21 ◼   ► They put you in a movie theater,

00:58:22 ◼   ► and you can actually, I mean,

00:58:23 ◼   ► you can have it be like you're on an asteroid or whatever,

00:58:26 ◼   ► but the one that I use is you're in a movie theater,

00:58:29 ◼   ► and there's seats, and you can choose

00:58:30 ◼   ► how dim you want the lights to be,

00:58:31 ◼   ► and then there's the big screen up there

00:58:32 ◼   ► and how close you wanna be.

00:58:34 ◼   ► And one of the ideas there is,

00:58:36 ◼   ► you could have your friends come

00:58:37 ◼   ► and watch the movie with you.

00:58:38 ◼   ► So imagine a scenario where it's like SharePlay,

00:58:41 ◼   ► but you're in a VR space, right?

00:58:43 ◼   ► But you're in a VR space

00:58:44 ◼   ► and your friends Memoji is sitting next to you

00:58:47 ◼   ► and you can talk during the movie

00:58:48 ◼   ► and nobody's gonna shush you except maybe your friends.

00:58:51 ◼   ► And you can hear them talk and you can also watch the movie

00:58:53 ◼   ► and it's an actual like sharing kind of experience.

00:58:56 ◼   ► So I feel like Apple's gonna try all that stuff.

00:58:59 ◼   ► again, when we say all the pieces,

00:59:01 ◼   ► they've got all these pieces,

00:59:02 ◼   ► it does feel like in addition to making these pieces

00:59:05 ◼   ► available for their existing platforms,

00:59:06 ◼   ► they've also been sort of building all the parts

00:59:10 ◼   ► to put into a VR product.

00:59:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, SharePlay.

00:59:15 ◼   ► That one I lied, as soon as you started saying it,

00:59:18 ◼   ► it was like, I felt like the scales were falling

00:59:20 ◼   ► from my eyes, like SharePlay makes so much sense.

00:59:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know if people like it or not,

00:59:25 ◼   ► but I feel like in some ways,

00:59:28 ◼   ► it might be nice to watch a movie or a TV show

00:59:30 ◼   ► with your friends in a virtual space

00:59:32 ◼   ► because it would be less lonely, right?

00:59:34 ◼   ► If it's just you with your headset on, it's just you.

00:59:36 ◼   ► It's very solitary.

00:59:38 ◼   ► And also that might actually be a less weird kind of like,

00:59:42 ◼   ► oh, we're doing a text. - Way less weird

00:59:43 ◼   ► than the way you do it now.

00:59:44 ◼   ► - Right, like it would just be,

00:59:46 ◼   ► we're sitting in a movie theater.

00:59:48 ◼   ► - With SharePlay, like if you want to do the video version,

00:59:50 ◼   ► like you've got to actually have you on video, right?

00:59:52 ◼   ► Which maybe you don't want to do,

00:59:53 ◼   ► but you would have the same,

00:59:55 ◼   ► a very similar experience of presence,

00:59:58 ◼   ► which is the thing that's really cool about VR,

01:00:00 ◼   ► even more so actually,

01:00:01 ◼   ► 'cause you would turn to the left and look at your friend.

01:00:04 ◼   ► I actually think that would be a really cool thing to do

01:00:07 ◼   ► and would be a fun thing to experience.

01:00:09 ◼   ► This is very nebulous,

01:00:12 ◼   ► but one of the things that I expect from Apple

01:00:14 ◼   ► is some kind of smart way that you wear the headset.

01:00:18 ◼   ► I'm thinking of Apple Watch bands, right?

01:00:22 ◼   ► They really did a good job of how you put the watch on to your body.

01:00:29 ◼   ► And at the moment, every VR headset is a clunky experience in some way.

01:00:35 ◼   ► How you put it on, how you have to adjust it, all that kind of stuff.

01:00:39 ◼   ► I'm hoping that Apple have come up with some kind of better way of handling that experience.

01:00:49 ◼   ► Handling that part of it all.

01:00:52 ◼   ► So I don't know what that might be, but I just want them to make it more elegant.

01:00:57 ◼   ► It's not like Meta doesn't have industrial designers, because they absolutely do.

01:01:01 ◼   ► It does sound like there's been some criticism about the way that the design of the new product

01:01:07 ◼   ► is, and the Quest 2, you know, it shipped with a terrible headband, and then you could

01:01:12 ◼   ► buy one that was good.

01:01:14 ◼   ► The new one is better in that they weight it a bit better, like there's more battery

01:01:17 ◼   ► on the back and lighter on the front.

01:01:19 ◼   ► And it's got this like turning wheel thing,

01:01:22 ◼   ► which is better than the Velcro, but still not ideal.

01:01:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, the turning wheel is on the upgraded version

01:01:27 ◼   ► of the Quest 2 head strap that I bought.

01:01:30 ◼   ► Yeah, oh, it's so much better.

01:01:32 ◼   ► The turning wheel, it's to make it tighter or looser

01:01:35 ◼   ► around your head.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a much better design.

01:01:39 ◼   ► So all that said, I think about Apple,

01:01:41 ◼   ► and I know Apple's had a bunch of turnover and all that,

01:01:43 ◼   ► but like you would like to think

01:01:45 ◼   ► that Apple's industrial design people

01:01:47 ◼   ► and would design a really nice headset

01:01:51 ◼   ► that would be as comfortable to wear as possible.

01:01:54 ◼   ► You would really expect that.

01:01:55 ◼   ► I expect them to raise the bar there.

01:01:58 ◼   ► I'll be disappointed if they don't

01:02:00 ◼   ► because I feel like having Apple

01:02:03 ◼   ► think about the human experience

01:02:06 ◼   ► of putting this on your face,

01:02:08 ◼   ► like I would really hope

01:02:09 ◼   ► that they have put in some good work there.

01:02:11 ◼   ► I don't know what that is either, right?

01:02:13 ◼   ► But like you mentioned Apple Watch bands,

01:02:14 ◼   ► that's a good example.

01:02:16 ◼   ► I've got two more and you've got one more.

01:02:18 ◼   ► I am going to say thinking of services,

01:02:23 ◼   ► immersive, fitness plus, workouts and integration.

01:02:27 ◼   ► One of the successes, I know, again,

01:02:30 ◼   ► if you've never done this, you're like,

01:02:31 ◼   ► exercising a VR headset sounds like bizarre.

01:02:35 ◼   ► One of the real successes of the Quest

01:02:38 ◼   ► has been the Supernatural Workout app and Beat Saber,

01:02:41 ◼   ► which is essentially a workout app game.

01:02:46 ◼   ► they are very successful and you work up a sweat.

01:02:48 ◼   ► I do that, I do Beat Saber and I also play table tennis

01:02:52 ◼   ► with 11 table tennis and you can work up a sweat

01:02:55 ◼   ► with both of those things, right?

01:02:57 ◼   ► So it's actually a thing, right?

01:02:59 ◼   ► Because the idea there is exercise might be boring

01:03:02 ◼   ► and you can make it more interesting

01:03:03 ◼   ► if you strap a thing to your face

01:03:05 ◼   ► and show you interesting things.

01:03:06 ◼   ► So, Fitness Plus could be workouts in the studio

01:03:09 ◼   ► that are more VR where you're actually sitting

01:03:12 ◼   ► among all the people on the bikes or whatever.

01:03:15 ◼   ► It could be moving through real spaces.

01:03:18 ◼   ► The idea that when you're doing a bike,

01:03:20 ◼   ► they have immersive bike workouts

01:03:22 ◼   ► where you actually are pedaling through an environment

01:03:24 ◼   ► and depending on how you're pedaling,

01:03:26 ◼   ► or walking on a, or running on a treadmill,

01:03:30 ◼   ► like you're moving through virtual spaces

01:03:31 ◼   ► so that it's more entertaining that way.

01:03:34 ◼   ► And if you imagine the burn bar idea that they have about,

01:03:37 ◼   ► like, are you in the back of the pack,

01:03:39 ◼   ► or the front of the pack and all that,

01:03:40 ◼   ► having a group of other participants, virtual participants,

01:03:44 ◼   ► 'cause it's all presumably not live,

01:03:47 ◼   ► that you're moving through as a motivator

01:03:49 ◼   ► of like you're behind the Peloton

01:03:50 ◼   ► or you're ahead of the Peloton.

01:03:52 ◼   ► That would be interesting too.

01:03:54 ◼   ► And then I will throw in also as well,

01:03:56 ◼   ► you could even do it based on the video game concept

01:03:58 ◼   ► of the ghosts, right?

01:03:59 ◼   ► Where you could like do a run workout or a bike workout

01:04:03 ◼   ► and see your previous workouts as like milestones

01:04:07 ◼   ► of like this is, you're gonna be chasing your best workout

01:04:10 ◼   ► and make sure you get ahead of them.

01:04:11 ◼   ► There's a lot of potential there.

01:04:13 ◼   ► And I would imagine that there are people

01:04:14 ◼   ► who've thought a lot about this inside of Apple

01:04:16 ◼   ► for how you use fitness apps in general

01:04:20 ◼   ► and Fitness Plus in particular

01:04:22 ◼   ► as one of the ways to do,

01:04:25 ◼   ► you get people to wanna use a headset.

01:04:27 ◼   ► - And the last one that I wanted to mention,

01:04:30 ◼   ► this is in a conversation I had

01:04:32 ◼   ► with _DavidSmith a while ago.

01:04:35 ◼   ► Widgets, this isn't really a thing about,

01:04:38 ◼   ► like it could be inexpensive, but just the experience.

01:04:40 ◼   ► Like I could imagine one of the things

01:04:42 ◼   ► that they will want you to be doing here

01:04:44 ◼   ► is to sit and work with this thing.

01:04:47 ◼   ► Like, you're actually sitting at your desk and doing work,

01:04:50 ◼   ► and you've got, like, large displays in front of you

01:04:52 ◼   ► that are displayed because of, you know, whatever.

01:04:55 ◼   ► And I thought it would be kind of cool to use

01:04:59 ◼   ► some, like, AR kind of feature of being able to pin widgets.

01:05:05 ◼   ► Like, we see them on iOS, right,

01:05:07 ◼   ► like, in different parts of your room.

01:05:09 ◼   ► Like, I would imagine, like, you could select some widgets

01:05:11 ◼   ► and basically stick them on your wall,

01:05:13 ◼   ► and you could just turn your head and look at the widgets

01:05:16 ◼   ► and go back to what you were doing.

01:05:18 ◼   ► I thought that that kind of idea would be pretty cool

01:05:20 ◼   ► if they did something like that,

01:05:22 ◼   ► using that technology that they've been building

01:05:24 ◼   ► in another way, I think it'd be kind of fun.

01:05:27 ◼   ► - And I will close out with the reason

01:05:30 ◼   ► that I actually brought this topic up to you,

01:05:35 ◼   ► which is my moment in reading Mark Gurman say,

01:05:37 ◼   ► it'll probably have an M2 processor in it.

01:05:39 ◼   ► And I thought, I was thinking about Horizon Workrooms

01:05:42 ◼   ► and I was thinking, you know, I would not put it past Apple

01:05:46 ◼   ► to have this headset let you have a Mac on it.

01:05:50 ◼   ► And I mean like literally a Mac on it.

01:05:55 ◼   ► Like you could do screen sharing to another Mac of yours.

01:05:57 ◼   ► That's what Horizon Workrooms does

01:05:59 ◼   ► and with a higher resolution,

01:06:00 ◼   ► being able to see your screen.

01:06:02 ◼   ► But I was thinking, what if you could travel with this

01:06:06 ◼   ► and maybe a keyboard or a virtual keyboard,

01:06:08 ◼   ► depending on your input and virtual mouse

01:06:10 ◼   ► or whatever you want.

01:06:11 ◼   ► but like it's an M2, what if you could travel

01:06:15 ◼   ► and not bring your computer with you

01:06:16 ◼   ► because you could run macOS in a virtual space on it

01:06:20 ◼   ► and iOS apps as well on it

01:06:23 ◼   ► and create like a virtual work environment

01:06:25 ◼   ► that you could boot up that would be on the network

01:06:27 ◼   ► and run all your apps and back things up

01:06:30 ◼   ► and be a Mac essentially, but in a virtual space.

01:06:34 ◼   ► Like I don't, again, do you wanna work on it all day?

01:06:38 ◼   ► No, but I think that there might be something there

01:06:42 ◼   ► in terms of being able to run certain apps

01:06:44 ◼   ► or get some work done.

01:06:45 ◼   ► And if it is a corporate,

01:06:47 ◼   ► potentially a corporate and industry product as well,

01:06:52 ◼   ► having that as a capability.

01:06:54 ◼   ► But I just had that moment where I thought,

01:06:56 ◼   ► the hardware is gonna be able to run macOS if it wants to.

01:06:59 ◼   ► What if you virtualize macOS?

01:07:00 ◼   ► And so then you go on your trip somewhere

01:07:03 ◼   ► and you bring the headset.

01:07:04 ◼   ► And if you need to log into work, you can do that,

01:07:07 ◼   ► but you don't need to bring a laptop

01:07:08 ◼   ► with you at all, you just bring the headset.

01:07:10 ◼   ► It's a wacky idea and yet, they could do it.

01:07:12 ◼   ► - Or even if it's just a case of like using it as a screen,

01:07:16 ◼   ► but yes, it would be more fun to be able

01:07:18 ◼   ► to actually just virtualize macOS.

01:07:20 ◼   ► It's gonna be running a chip that could do it, so.

01:07:22 ◼   ► - And friend of the show, Zach, in the chat room says

01:07:24 ◼   ► there's no way that they would let them open a terminal

01:07:27 ◼   ► on a new product class from Apple.

01:07:29 ◼   ► But it's like, well, yeah, but what if it's a virtual Mac?

01:07:31 ◼   ► Right, like opening the terminal on the virtual Mac

01:07:34 ◼   ► or on a, like I can screen share to a Mac from my iPad

01:07:39 ◼   ► and open a terminal window there.

01:07:41 ◼   ► In a certain way, it would not be a big deal

01:07:45 ◼   ► because it would literally be like,

01:07:46 ◼   ► you can run a Mac inside this in the virtual world.

01:07:49 ◼   ► And it's an actual Mac that's running

01:07:52 ◼   ► inside a virtual machine inside this virtual world.

01:07:55 ◼   ► Like if somebody found that valuable, sure, why not do that?

01:07:59 ◼   ► And why not have a virtual like iPad or iPhone too,

01:08:03 ◼   ► if you really wanted to, but it just,

01:08:04 ◼   ► it was that moment where I thought, okay,

01:08:06 ◼   ► Horizon Workrooms has the thing

01:08:07 ◼   ► where you install software on your laptop

01:08:09 ◼   ► and then your laptop appears in the virtual world

01:08:11 ◼   ► and it's very low resolution,

01:08:12 ◼   ► but you can sit there typing into your laptop

01:08:14 ◼   ► and see the results on the screen.

01:08:15 ◼   ► I thought, okay, okay, but what if you could just run it?

01:08:20 ◼   ► Just have a Mac in your virtual space

01:08:23 ◼   ► that you could turn on and it was a Mac.

01:08:26 ◼   ► That would be interesting.

01:08:28 ◼   ► And I don't know, who knows?

01:08:30 ◼   ► - If you enjoy the show,

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01:09:15 ◼   ► There are tons of great benefits

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01:09:21 ◼   ► and sign up for $5 a month or $50 a year,

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01:09:29 ◼   ► In Upgrade Plus today, we're going to be talking about Wakanda Forever.

01:09:32 ◼   ► We've both seen it and we want to talk about it.

01:09:35 ◼   ► Been like maybe in previous weeks, last week's was really good.

01:09:37 ◼   ► We spoke about the disaster of Twitter a lot last week.

01:09:40 ◼   ► So that's the thing that's available to you.

01:09:43 ◼   ► Go to getupgradeplus.com.

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01:09:47 ◼   ► Let's finish out today's episode with some hashtag #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:09:53 ◼   ► John asks, in the discussions about Twitter,

01:09:58 ◼   ► I haven't heard much about the one thing that would push me off the service, being forced

01:10:02 ◼   ► to use the official app. Surely Elon will cut the third-party clients sooner rather

01:10:07 ◼   ► than later, right? What do you think?

01:10:09 ◼   ► My feeling, I mean, talk about the missed opportunity, is that for a long time, Twitter

01:10:14 ◼   ► should, could have made a lot of money by just saying if you want to use a third-party

01:10:18 ◼   ► client, you have to be a subscriber. For whatever the cost of whatever became Twitter blue was,

01:10:24 ◼   ► but just make a subscription where like, alright, you want to use a third-party client, that's

01:10:28 ◼   ► fine, pay us $5 a month or $10 a month or whatever, and that is, in addition to all

01:10:33 ◼   ► the other features it gives you, it lets you use a third-party client. I'd be okay

01:10:36 ◼   ► with that. But I agree with Jon in the sense that yes, if Twitter, like as we

01:10:43 ◼   ► said in Upgrade Plus, I find so much value in parts of Twitter that I

01:10:50 ◼   ► feel it's unlikely that I'm gonna get off of Twitter completely unless it

01:10:56 ◼   ► implodes entirely, it's like literally stops working.

01:10:59 ◼   ► There is no Twitter left. Or that all of the information sources that I have that I find

01:11:05 ◼   ► valuable disappear from Twitter is then it is valueless to me. But I'll tell you, if

01:11:11 ◼   ► I can't use my third-party apps of choice, or in this case it's Twitterific for me, if

01:11:15 ◼   ► I can't use Twitterific to be on Twitter or any other third-party app, and I have to use

01:11:21 ◼   ► Twitter's apps or their website, that will probably be the thing that gets me off Twitter.

01:11:26 ◼   ► - Interesting.

01:11:27 ◼   ► I think they 100% will kill them.

01:11:30 ◼   ► I'm surprised he hasn't done it already.

01:11:32 ◼   ► I just think he just doesn't know, honestly.

01:11:34 ◼   ► - It's possible, although again, at this point,

01:11:36 ◼   ► given that they seem to be trying very hard

01:11:38 ◼   ► to come up with reasons

01:11:39 ◼   ► that you would subscribe to Twitter Blue,

01:11:42 ◼   ► I wouldn't put it past them to just say,

01:11:44 ◼   ► "Third-party clients now have to be

01:11:46 ◼   ► "only for Twitter Blue subscribers."

01:11:48 ◼   ► - But Twitter Blue still has ads.

01:11:51 ◼   ► Like, he needs you,

01:11:52 ◼   ► he needs all the money you can possibly get, right?

01:11:55 ◼   ► I know what you're saying,

01:11:56 ◼   ► but I don't imagine that the API is gonna stick around.

01:12:01 ◼   ► - Well, this requires a level of coherency

01:12:04 ◼   ► that I don't think that the company has right now.

01:12:06 ◼   ► But in the long run, what should have happened all along

01:12:08 ◼   ► was that they should have said, okay,

01:12:10 ◼   ► instead of saying we're gonna not do the API

01:12:12 ◼   ► and you're all gonna die, and oh, well, not right,

01:12:14 ◼   ► you can hang on and be a third-party client,

01:12:16 ◼   ► but it's not gonna be very good.

01:12:18 ◼   ► What they should have said way back when was,

01:12:20 ◼   ► we're gonna keep doing the API,

01:12:22 ◼   ► we're gonna upgrade the API,

01:12:23 ◼   ► but here's what's gonna happen.

01:12:24 ◼   ► You have to be a Twitter subscriber, whatever that is,

01:12:27 ◼   ► in order to have access to it in your app.

01:12:29 ◼   ► So you're gonna have to have a,

01:12:30 ◼   ► it's gonna have to be connected to an app

01:12:32 ◼   ► that is a Twitter subscriber.

01:12:34 ◼   ► And separately, you are going to, you the app developer,

01:12:39 ◼   ► we are going to, in the API, provide you with ads

01:12:41 ◼   ► that you have to show, right?

01:12:43 ◼   ► They said you have to display, you know,

01:12:47 ◼   ► it can't be a star, it has to be a heart,

01:12:49 ◼   ► and you have to have these three icons.

01:12:51 ◼   ► Like they put all of these restrictions in there,

01:12:53 ◼   ► But what they didn't do is say,

01:12:54 ◼   ► "And also we're gonna provide you an ad

01:12:56 ◼   ► "that you have to display in the feed."

01:12:58 ◼   ► They could have, they could still.

01:13:00 ◼   ► Will they?

01:13:01 ◼   ► Yeah, no, probably not,

01:13:02 ◼   ► because that would require a lot of effort

01:13:04 ◼   ► and they seem to have lost half their people.

01:13:06 ◼   ► So, yeah.

01:13:07 ◼   ► But anyway, I think that they could have done that.

01:13:10 ◼   ► And I think you're right,

01:13:11 ◼   ► other than the fact that it's just been ignored,

01:13:13 ◼   ► it would seem to be a very easy thing for Elon

01:13:18 ◼   ► to hear about that there are third-party clients

01:13:21 ◼   ► that don't see ads and don't do an algorithmic timeline

01:13:23 ◼   ► and say, "Just cut 'em off."

01:13:24 ◼   ► - I feel like it will happen.

01:13:26 ◼   ► It's just a matter of time.

01:13:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, that would probably push me over the edge

01:13:30 ◼   ► because my Twitter life has been entirely mediated

01:13:33 ◼   ► by Twitterific, and if I'm now using the Twitter app

01:13:37 ◼   ► or their website, yeah, probably not.

01:13:40 ◼   ► - I think that, I mean, but maybe I would say at this point

01:13:43 ◼   ► it's, you might not get to it before it shuts down,

01:13:48 ◼   ► stuff's working. - Right, right.

01:13:50 ◼   ► What a battle, what a battle.

01:13:52 ◼   ► it's Listeros or the lettuce.

01:13:54 ◼   ► - Oh boy.

01:13:57 ◼   ► Michael asks, "Do you think Apple will actually put

01:14:00 ◼   ► a USB-C port on the next generation of iPhones

01:14:03 ◼   ► or will they try to find another way

01:14:05 ◼   ► to be compliant with the EU rule?"

01:14:07 ◼   ► - I think everybody's overthinking this.

01:14:11 ◼   ► I feel like the USB-C transition in the iPhone

01:14:14 ◼   ► was always inevitable.

01:14:15 ◼   ► Apple has been making that transition

01:14:17 ◼   ► on all of its other products.

01:14:19 ◼   ► I suspect that they've been targeting 2023

01:14:21 ◼   ► to do it all along and that it has nothing to do with the EU at all.

01:14:27 ◼   ► Yeah and also I mean I've had a cursory read of the ruling. There kind of isn't a

01:14:33 ◼   ► way around it. No. Unless they've... because I actually don't even think that they

01:14:39 ◼   ► could go all Qi charging. Like I don't think that that's the thing that they

01:14:43 ◼   ► could do right now or at least not do easily without the EU, especially on

01:14:49 ◼   ► on their first attempt getting all up in their business?

01:14:54 ◼   ► - In fact, I think this has been a plan for Apple all along

01:14:57 ◼   ► because we have had those rumors about,

01:14:58 ◼   ► well, it's just gonna be portless,

01:14:59 ◼   ► but it's like that has seemed unrealistic.

01:15:01 ◼   ► It's possible that they kept stringing along

01:15:03 ◼   ► the Lightning port 'cause they hoped

01:15:04 ◼   ► that they would never have to do USB-C

01:15:05 ◼   ► and they'd just go to portless,

01:15:06 ◼   ► but I've never really thought that that was a realistic goal.

01:15:09 ◼   ► I feel like you need to do something.

01:15:11 ◼   ► Maybe they've got some smart connector kind of thing

01:15:14 ◼   ► in the works, but they don't have it ready yet.

01:15:17 ◼   ► But I prefer the simple solution,

01:15:21 ◼   ► which is they knew that they were gonna bring

01:15:22 ◼   ► all their products over to USB-C.

01:15:24 ◼   ► It was only a matter of time.

01:15:26 ◼   ► That includes the mouse and the track pad and AirPods cases.

01:15:30 ◼   ► Like they knew they had to get there eventually,

01:15:33 ◼   ► but it is expensive to redesign your product

01:15:35 ◼   ► so that they put it off as long as they could.

01:15:38 ◼   ► And that the EU will be a,

01:15:40 ◼   ► perhaps get them to do it a little faster

01:15:42 ◼   ► than they would have done it, but that they will do it.

01:15:44 ◼   ► - And also be a shield, right?

01:15:46 ◼   ► It's like a PR shield.

01:15:46 ◼   ► - Blame the EU this time, yeah.

01:15:49 ◼   ► Instead of everybody will be like,

01:15:50 ◼   ► "Oh, Apple, you changed the connector again."

01:15:52 ◼   ► Like a decade ago when they changed it the last time,

01:15:54 ◼   ► it's been a long time, but they're like,

01:15:56 ◼   ► "Oh, Apple, they keep changing the connector

01:15:57 ◼   ► every year or two."

01:15:58 ◼   ► Not true, but people will say that.

01:16:00 ◼   ► And Apple will be like, "It's not me, man, it's the EU.

01:16:02 ◼   ► It's the EU, they made us do it."

01:16:04 ◼   ► Blame the Europeans, it's Brussels' fault.

01:16:08 ◼   ► They did the sprouts and they took away your lightning

01:16:10 ◼   ► and it's their fault.

01:16:11 ◼   ► - It's their fault.

01:16:12 ◼   ► Richard asks, "Do you think apps like Uber

01:16:16 ◼   ► will actually use live activities.

01:16:18 ◼   ► Uber has recently started in-app advertising,

01:16:21 ◼   ► and live activities would mean users

01:16:22 ◼   ► would have to open the app less frequently

01:16:25 ◼   ► and therefore would see fewer ads.

01:16:27 ◼   ► So I have some thoughts on this.

01:16:28 ◼   ► -Yes. -I am genuinely surprised

01:16:30 ◼   ► they have not embraced live activities already,

01:16:33 ◼   ► because live activities are awesome.

01:16:35 ◼   ► I don't think it would change

01:16:38 ◼   ► how often people are actually opening the app,

01:16:40 ◼   ► because Uber has always been very, like, forward

01:16:44 ◼   ► in the notifications that they send you.

01:16:46 ◼   ► the push notifications send you about all the information you need, right?

01:16:49 ◼   ► Like when the car's coming, they're not like, "Hey, open the app to find out the info,"

01:16:53 ◼   ► right?

01:16:54 ◼   ► Like they actually say, "Your car's nearly here.

01:16:56 ◼   ► Here's the license plate."

01:16:58 ◼   ► Once you've ordered the ride, you don't need to be going back into the app to check stuff

01:17:03 ◼   ► if you don't want to.

01:17:04 ◼   ► So I think live activities would still do the same amount.

01:17:07 ◼   ► You still have to open the app to request the ride.

01:17:09 ◼   ► So if you want to see the ads, you can get that that way.

01:17:12 ◼   ► And honestly, we've seen it.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Uber don't care about sending push notifications for ads.

01:17:16 ◼   ► They are sending currently push notifications for ads

01:17:19 ◼   ► that aren't even their company.

01:17:20 ◼   ► Like there's like Peloton ads inside of the Uber app

01:17:24 ◼   ► that are being sent by push notification.

01:17:25 ◼   ► Like they'll advertise to you as part of the live activity,

01:17:29 ◼   ► I'm sure, right?

01:17:30 ◼   ► Like, and then it's on your screen.

01:17:31 ◼   ► They can show you things like,

01:17:33 ◼   ► hey, while you're waiting, do you want to get some food?

01:17:35 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that they would,

01:17:38 ◼   ► I don't think this is the reason

01:17:39 ◼   ► they haven't done live activities.

01:17:41 ◼   ► And I want more companies to embrace it.

01:17:43 ◼   ► like the food company that we have here, Deliveroo,

01:17:46 ◼   ► I could like to see them do it,

01:17:48 ◼   ► because the apps that have done it, it's so good.

01:17:50 ◼   ► And so I hope that they will.

01:17:52 ◼   ► - Again, I'm gonna be,

01:17:53 ◼   ► sorry to bring everybody down with reality,

01:17:55 ◼   ► but like, I don't think it's a conspiracy here.

01:17:58 ◼   ► I think that a lot of companies

01:18:00 ◼   ► do their iOS development cycles

01:18:01 ◼   ► based on the new OS being announced in June

01:18:03 ◼   ► and shipping in September.

01:18:05 ◼   ► And they put effort into doing their version updates

01:18:09 ◼   ► and doing a lot of work.

01:18:10 ◼   ► And they have a whole plan

01:18:11 ◼   ► that they're gonna come out in the fall

01:18:12 ◼   ► with their new version.

01:18:13 ◼   ► And then one week from that new version of the OS shipping,

01:18:18 ◼   ► Apple announces an entirely new API for this.

01:18:23 ◼   ► And I mean, for the dynamic island anyway,

01:18:27 ◼   ► Live Activities was there before,

01:18:28 ◼   ► but like it has been, or was it there?

01:18:31 ◼   ► Or were they saying it was coming later?

01:18:32 ◼   ► It was always a coming later, right?

01:18:34 ◼   ► - Live Activities was a thing that was coming,

01:18:36 ◼   ► but the actual API didn't become available

01:18:39 ◼   ► until the iPhone event, I think.

01:18:40 ◼   ► because of the dynamic island being a part of it.

01:18:43 ◼   ► So that's what I'd say is let's not jump to conclusions

01:18:47 ◼   ► about why more apps are not supporting

01:18:50 ◼   ► live activities right now.

01:18:51 ◼   ► I think the real answer is the API didn't get released

01:18:55 ◼   ► until September.

01:18:56 ◼   ► And on top of that, a lot of companies that build apps

01:18:59 ◼   ► sort of had a rhythm for their app development

01:19:02 ◼   ► that this didn't fit.

01:19:04 ◼   ► So give them time.

01:19:06 ◼   ► It's probably gonna take some time.

01:19:10 ◼   ► I would say, let's check back in June

01:19:13 ◼   ► and see how many apps have live activities.

01:19:15 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a question

01:19:17 ◼   ► for us to answer on the show,

01:19:18 ◼   ► just send out a tweet with the #AskUpgrade

01:19:21 ◼   ► or you can use ?AskUpgrade in the Relay FM members discord.

01:19:26 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors for this week's episode,

01:19:28 ◼   ► StoryWorth and Squarespace.

01:19:30 ◼   ► And thank you if you sign up to support the show

01:19:32 ◼   ► at getupgradeplus.com.

01:19:34 ◼   ► If you want to find Jason online, you can go to sixcolors.com

01:19:37 ◼   ► and he is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.

01:19:40 ◼   ► I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:19:43 ◼   ► And you can find this show and many others

01:19:45 ◼   ► over at relay.fm/shows.

01:19:47 ◼   ► You can find a new podcast to add to your queue

01:19:50 ◼   ► if that's what you're looking for.

01:19:52 ◼   ► Don't forget as well, go to upgradees.vote

01:19:54 ◼   ► and you can put in your nominations

01:19:56 ◼   ► for the ninth annual upgradees

01:19:58 ◼   ► coming your way sometime in December.

01:20:02 ◼   ► Thanks so much for listening

01:20:03 ◼   ► to this week's episode of Upgrade

01:20:05 ◼   ► and we'll be back next time.

01:20:07 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:20:09 ◼   ► Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:20:10 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:20:14 ◼   ► [ Music ]