0:00:00(beep)
0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:03From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 433.
0:00:12Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace
0:00:15and StoryWorth.
0:00:16My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.
0:00:18Hi, Jason.
0:00:20- Hi, Myke.
0:00:20How have we been doing this for 433 episodes?
0:00:23How is that possible?
0:00:23- Just one episode at a time.
0:00:26- Yeah, that's all you can do.
0:00:27I mean, unless you need to record extra.
0:00:29Anyway, yes, in one episode at a time, yeah, exactly.
0:00:31- I mean, I think you always do one episode at a time,
0:00:34right, even if you're doing extras,
0:00:35it's always one episode.
0:00:36- That's true, you do one and then you do the next.
0:00:40You can't take it more than,
0:00:42if you try to record two podcasts at once,
0:00:43I don't advise it, I think it would be a disaster.
0:00:45- Yeah, bad idea.
0:00:47I have a #snowtalk question for you,
0:00:49comes from Rick and Rick wants to know,
0:00:50well, Rick starts by saying,
0:00:52Jason, I loved the T-Robot episode
0:00:54of the Thoroughly Considered podcast.
0:00:56I also finished it since we last spoke,
0:00:57It was a very good episode.
0:00:59Rick wants to know, do you partake in and enjoy iced tea?
0:01:04- Oh boy.
0:01:05Sure, iced tea is fine.
0:01:07If I have leftover tea in the teapot,
0:01:10let's say I make tea for upgrade
0:01:12'cause I want my voice to be clear
0:01:15and not having my throat being cleared every five minutes.
0:01:18- And the caffeine.
0:01:19Caffeine delivery is important, you know?
0:01:21- Caffeine delivery to make me talkative
0:01:23and also to get the phlegm out of my throat.
0:01:26but I might have some leftover.
0:01:28What might I do with something like that?
0:01:30What might I do?
0:01:31The answer is yes, I might actually drink it as iced tea.
0:01:35And in the summer, sure, we've got to be,
0:01:36you know, I've got a little iced tea.
0:01:38I actually have an iced tea maker,
0:01:40which is not as high tech or nice.
0:01:44It's a big plastic contraption that you stick.
0:01:46You put water in the plastic contraption
0:01:49and ice in the bucket in the pitcher,
0:01:52and you press a button and it basically just boils the water
0:01:55and runs it through a little steeping basket.
0:01:58I hadn't really thought of it,
0:01:59but it is basically a sort of low-end tea robot for iced tea.
0:02:04We do have that.
0:02:05And so, yeah, I'll do that too.
0:02:08That's fine.
0:02:10Sometimes with lemon, sometimes not.
0:02:11- Sugar, is it sweet?
0:02:14- Yeah. - Yeah?
0:02:15- Yep. - There is something
0:02:17truly special about like really sweet iced tea.
0:02:22I mean, for me, it's Memphis,
0:02:23where I've enjoyed this the most.
0:02:25- It's Memphis, sure, 'cause they make it that way.
0:02:28Most, outside of the South in the US,
0:02:31generally you need to supply your own sugar, which I do.
0:02:34And it's never as good, right?
0:02:35'Cause you gotta get, you get the granulated sugar
0:02:37and it has to dissolve and it's never as good.
0:02:39But in the South, they just use the simple syrup.
0:02:43So they just pour it in, it's instantly dissolved
0:02:46and it's the sweet thing.
0:02:47It's great, it's amazing.
0:02:48I've said this on many occasions, I'll say it again.
0:02:51If I lived in the South, I'd be dead by now because of all the barbecue and the sweet tea.
0:02:57It's absolutely true. I would be gone.
0:02:59You'd be dead happy though.
0:03:00I would because barbecue is my favorite food and sweet tea is an amazing drink.
0:03:05Yeah, I don't recommend it.
0:03:09If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question for us to open an episode of the show,
0:03:14just send a tweet with the hashtag #SnailTalk or use question mark
0:03:17Snail Talk in the Relay FM members discord.
0:03:20I have a couple of items of follow up. I was complaining, questioning how good
0:03:27Siri commands were to get lights to turn on and off when you're in a room.
0:03:32Eric wrote in to say that if you add "in here" to the Siri request to turn on or off the lights,
0:03:40it does a remarkable job of knowing where you are and acting accordingly.
0:03:44Because I was not convinced that it knew which room I was in.
0:03:48Eric suggests to try this.
0:03:50Alright.
0:03:51Uh, should I try it?
0:03:53Yes.
0:03:54Turn off the lights in here.
0:03:56Okay. Which room?
0:04:02Living room. Jamie?
0:04:03Outside. Garage.
0:04:05Sorry, Eric. That didn't work as well as you wanted.
0:04:09Okay. The lights are off. The lava lamp is not responding.
0:04:11Okay.
0:04:12Check the home app for more details.
0:04:13Oh no.
0:04:14Well.
0:04:15- After I told it what room I'm actually in,
0:04:18which it doesn't know 'cause it was my watch,
0:04:19it was not on a HomePod.
0:04:21It did actually turn off the lights in here.
0:04:24So I'll give it that.
0:04:25- I think the key is the HomePod part.
0:04:28- A lavalier.
0:04:29- Right, like it's a device that has some kind of idea
0:04:32of where it is.
0:04:33I think that's probably the key part.
0:04:35- I think that's it.
0:04:35So maybe it does work.
0:04:37It just doesn't work with the watch.
0:04:39But if I had my smart assistant on a HomePod in here,
0:04:44- Yeah, okay, that's a good tip, Eric, thank you.
0:04:46- What I wanna know though, Jason,
0:04:48is what's happened to the lava lamp?
0:04:50- Well, you know, funny story,
0:04:53I woke up on Sunday morning and our wifi was down.
0:04:58- Ah, okay.
0:04:59- And so, and this is like, I was, and funny,
0:05:01I was just listening to the ATP episode
0:05:03where they talked about Lutron Caseta switches
0:05:05and how the great thing is that it's on its own network.
0:05:07And so, you know, wifi is the thing that makes home
0:05:10networking and home smart home devices not reliable.
0:05:15And I got to get that firsthand
0:05:17because what happened is I have a UPS,
0:05:20an uninterruptible power system on for my router
0:05:25and my wifi so that if the power goes out,
0:05:29the router and the wifi stay on.
0:05:31And this is my oldest, I think, UPS that I have
0:05:34and it's battery died.
0:05:36And the UPS's decision when the battery dies
0:05:38is to take all the devices that are on the plugs that are backed up by the battery and
0:05:44turn them off. And so at three in the morning, my Wi-Fi and my fiber router were just unceremoniously
0:05:52shut down. And so I had in my pajamas, I was like, "What is going on?" I diagnosed it,
0:05:58I got out, I pulled out the UPS, I put in a power strip, I plugged it all back in. But
0:06:04I'll tell you, some devices, some wifi-based smart home devices do not like it when there
0:06:14is a power cycle like that. And so I have been, and the lava lamp will be next, the
0:06:22lights outside in the backyard didn't come on last night. And I'm like, "I know what
0:06:27this is." And literally all I did was I unplugged them and, because it's a smart outlet, unplugged
0:06:31and replugged the smart switch out there. And then they worked. Like I had to reboot
0:06:38Homebridge because it was confused and the undoubtedly the smart switch that the lava
0:06:42lamp is plugged into just needs to be unplugged and replugged at which point it will get back
0:06:47on the network if it's back up and it's been back up for ages now but they just get really
0:06:50confused and this is what we talk about when we say that relying on a Wi-Fi network for
0:06:56your smart home devices is a problem because sometimes the Wi-Fi network gets kind of out
0:07:01a whack and the devices get out of whack and then you know you you have to power cycle
0:07:07everything in order to get it back together as opposed to something like the Lutron Quesada
0:07:13stuff which is working fine because it's got its own radio network and they talk to themselves
0:07:19and they are connected to the rest of the house but they don't rely on the Wi-Fi to
0:07:24stay up and running. I wonder if some of these devices like with that kind of tying off the
0:07:30the power like that almost treat it like a reset.
0:07:32Like it may trigger like a, you know,
0:07:35like they think that you've purposely reset the device
0:07:38or something.
0:07:39- I think what's happening is that the smart home devices
0:07:41that are on Wi-Fi are dumb and they lose the network
0:07:44and they go, "Oh no!"
0:07:46And then they never, and they, until you reboot them,
0:07:50they don't know how to reconnect to the Wi-Fi network
0:07:54that went down.
0:07:55That seems to be what's going on here.
0:07:57Like, "Oh no, I don't know what to do."
0:08:00well, you know, this happens on networks all the time.
0:08:02You should know what to do, but they don't.
0:08:05And so then you power cycle them and then they come on,
0:08:07they go, "Oh, where's my wifi network?"
0:08:08There it is.
0:08:09It's been there all along, stupid thing,
0:08:10but the bad ones are like that.
0:08:14I think there are good ones that aren't like that,
0:08:16but the bad ones are like that.
0:08:17- Yeah, I can definitely empathize
0:08:20because I haven't had internet for like seven days.
0:08:23We had internet, now the internet's gone away
0:08:25at the new place, so there's no internet anymore.
0:08:28and it's kind of made the home network a bit of a disaster,
0:08:33including all of our smart stuff.
0:08:36- So you had it and then you lost it.
0:08:38- We were using the previous owner's internet
0:08:41because we wanted to sign up, but they weren't canceling.
0:08:44So I just decided to set up my network.
0:08:48- Then they canceled it.
0:08:49- And now we're waiting to get re-set up again.
0:08:51- Installed.
0:08:52- Yeah, which hopefully will be tomorrow.
0:08:54But you know, when it comes to internet service providers,
0:08:57I never actually believe anything that they say
0:08:59until it's done.
0:09:00So we'll see what happens there.
0:09:02But we're having an issue now where like,
0:09:05we need to like be off wifi
0:09:09to have a connection to the internet.
0:09:12But then we need to turn on wifi on our devices
0:09:15so we can turn off the lights.
0:09:16(laughs)
0:09:18Just some follow up here.
0:09:21Turn on the lava lamp.
0:09:23Oh, come on.
0:09:24Oh, nearly.
0:09:25Turn on the lava lamp.
0:09:26You got it? Coming right up.
0:09:28- Okay.
0:09:29- Ladies and gentlemen, the lava lamp is on
0:09:30and all I had to do was take a smart outlet,
0:09:33unplug it and plug it back in.
0:09:35- Perfect. - That's it.
0:09:36- That's what it takes.
0:09:37- That's it.
0:09:38Not so smart, is it?
0:09:39- You need to put the smart outlet on a smart outlet
0:09:41so you can turn off the smart outlet for the smart.
0:09:43- Oh, that's a, hmm, hmm.
0:09:46- Then you'll be good to go.
0:09:47- Yeah, it's just, it's dumb.
0:09:50- Speaking of which, Jason, I saw an article today,
0:09:53I think you might be excited about this.
0:09:55Phillips Hue Christmas lights.
0:09:58- Ah. - Like string lights.
0:10:00This is a new product.
0:10:03It's available today.
0:10:05I actually bought some.
0:10:07I think this is a great idea.
0:10:08It's 250 mini smart LEDs on a 20 meter cord,
0:10:12which can be used on a Christmas tree,
0:10:13stairway, mantle, or more, says MacRumors.
0:10:16- Hmm, interesting. - It's a fun little product.
0:10:19- That is what I was talking about.
0:10:22the idea of having some smart controllable LED.
0:10:25I'm sure there are lots of cheap ones out there
0:10:27that are not hue based.
0:10:29- And these aren't cheap, it's $160.
0:10:31But I've had nothing but good things to say
0:10:34about the hue line of products.
0:10:37So I think this might be a fun little thing.
0:10:40Plus I would say my wife Idina just loves
0:10:43these kinds of lights.
0:10:44Like we've always had like what we call fairy lights.
0:10:47- Fairy lights.
0:10:48- Somewhere in the home.
0:10:50So these won't just be used at Christmas for us, I think.
0:10:54But over the Christmas period,
0:10:55we can put them around the tree.
0:10:57So I think that'd be nice and cute.
0:10:58- Festavia.
0:11:00- Festavia, Festavia.
0:11:02- Festavia.
0:11:03- I don't like the name of that, but.
0:11:05- I was thinking it would be Festiva, but it's Festavia.
0:11:08- Festavia.
0:11:09- That's the Dutch for you.
0:11:11Germanifying everything like that, Festavia.
0:11:15Yeah, it's Festavia.
0:11:18- Indeed, speaking about the festive season.
0:11:20Festive season means an important thing around here.
0:11:25It is time to vote for the ninth annual Upgradies Awards.
0:11:29- Yes.
0:11:30- You can go to Upgradies.vote
0:11:32and you can put your votes in now
0:11:35for the ninth annual Upgradies.
0:11:39Voting is open. - Are they votes,
0:11:39the nominations?
0:11:41- Yeah, nominations, votes, nominations, votes,
0:11:43something like that.
0:11:45you know what we're saying, is now time.
0:11:48So the nominations are open,
0:11:50you can go and fill out the Google form.
0:11:52Voting is open from now until December 12th.
0:11:56So you have about a month.
0:11:59As a programming note,
0:12:01we have condensed some categories this year.
0:12:04So we previously had an iOS game of the year
0:12:07and a game of the year.
0:12:09We now just have game of the year,
0:12:11so we're bringing that together.
0:12:12And previously we had three podcast categories.
0:12:17We had best tech podcast, best non-tech podcast,
0:12:21and best podcast newcomer.
0:12:23We now condense this to just best podcast,
0:12:26which is one podcast category now.
0:12:29But as a note,
0:12:30we had had some previous Lifetime Achievement Award winners,
0:12:33the Accidental Tech Podcast and the Flop House.
0:12:36So they are going to continue.
0:12:38They are not eligible for winning.
0:12:40So it is not worth making that nomination
0:12:43because it won't be counted.
0:12:45So they're gonna continue being
0:12:46Lifetime Achievement Award winners.
0:12:48We encourage you to recommend
0:12:50maybe your second favorite podcast,
0:12:52if either of those is your favorite.
0:12:54So we're going to now just do
0:12:56the one overall podcast of the year category.
0:13:00This is partly to bring it in line
0:13:03with the other categories in this kind of block.
0:13:06So we do of the year,
0:13:09We can just choose, right?
0:13:12You just choose your favorite and we're just going to go with it.
0:13:16You can find previous winners at Upgradies.com, which the wonderful Zach maintains for us,
0:13:23and the changes to these categories will be reflected at some point in the not too distant
0:13:28future on the website.
0:13:31We're getting ready.
0:13:32I think we're going to be probably, I'm expecting, we haven't set this, but I'm expecting December
0:13:3719th is when the upgradees will occur,
0:13:42because December 26th will be the holiday special, I expect,
0:13:45is what we'll be doing.
0:13:47- Oh, really?
0:13:48I thought it would be the other way around, right?
0:13:50- It's either gonna be December 19th or December 26th.
0:13:54Me and Jason have not had this conversation yet,
0:13:57but you have a month to do the voting,
0:13:59and it'll be one of those last two episodes of the year.
0:14:02- What if it's January 2nd?
0:14:04- Yeah, I don't want that.
0:14:06- Okay.
0:14:07to do in December. But we'll see. We have some scheduling to do as well, right? There's
0:14:11a lot of holidays happening there, as there always are. That's why I wanted to get the
0:14:16voting going now. Yep, that's a good idea. So we had enough time, and so then I'll have
0:14:21enough time, depending on whenever we do it, to get the tabulation complete, because a
0:14:28lot of work goes into that. I wanted to put a request out to Upgradients. Ooh. So I'm
0:14:37So in the house move, I'm kind of redoing all of my home
0:14:43automation stuff.
0:14:45And I've decided to kind of do what
0:14:48I can to focus on going all in on HomeKit this time around.
0:14:55Where previously, I'd kind of dabbled with HomeKit
0:14:58and Amazon Echo, that kind of stuff.
0:15:01But my goal is that all of the smart devices that I buy
0:15:06will be able to tie into HomeKit.
0:15:08And then if I can tie them into other things with Matter
0:15:10or integrations, great.
0:15:12But HomeKit is the goal.
0:15:15It's just the system that I like the most.
0:15:17And then if I have all of these devices in HomeKit,
0:15:19then I can automate them to do interesting things together.
0:15:22So I would like, if Upgradients have recommendations,
0:15:27you can send them to me in the follow-up channel in Discord,
0:15:31or send them to me on Twitter or whatever.
0:15:34I would love to know products that you like.
0:15:39I will say not Acara products.
0:15:42I'll get to that in a second.
0:15:44Or if you have YouTubers that you enjoy,
0:15:47blogs, influencers in home automation,
0:15:50focusing around HomeKit, I would love some recommendations
0:15:53for people.
0:15:54The reason I mentioned Acara, so I got an Acara hub
0:15:58so I could use some of the leak sensors
0:16:00that David Sparks recommended.
0:16:04But I also have a HomeKit alarm system
0:16:07by a company called Abode.
0:16:09So this is like a, it's like a four alarm system,
0:16:13kind of like a ring or something like that,
0:16:14but it's all tied natively into HomeKit.
0:16:18The problem with Acara is their hub works.
0:16:22It tries to, it tells HomeKit it's an alarm system,
0:16:26even if you don't use it for alarm system stuff.
0:16:29So then I have two alarm systems in one HomeKit,
0:16:32which causes tons of problems, I have learned,
0:16:36because then you kind of have to set both for the,
0:16:38it's like a whole nightmare.
0:16:39So, Akara's, I don't think is gonna work for me
0:16:42unless they have a hub that does not tell HomeKit
0:16:45that it's an alarm, which is odd to me
0:16:48that it's hub does that.
0:16:49'Cause you can set Akara's stuff up,
0:16:51like you can buy all of Akara's sensors
0:16:54and turn it into an alarm system, right?
0:16:56Like, that's kind of what they're doing,
0:16:59but it's odd to me that it will only let you do that or not.
0:17:03And so if you have some kind of HomeKit alarm system,
0:17:06and so part of the issue I'm having is,
0:17:08you know you have these categories at the top now
0:17:11of HomeKit, right?
0:17:12So you've got lights and stuff like that,
0:17:14where it tries to, you can tap them,
0:17:16it takes you to each thing.
0:17:17If I set my HomeKit alarm system, but not the Acara,
0:17:22because I'm only using it for leak sensors,
0:17:24it tells me that my alarm system is disabled
0:17:27even when it isn't.
0:17:28And so like at first glance, that's not helpful to me.
0:17:31So I then would have to set both of them
0:17:34and that's just a nightmare and I don't want to do that.
0:17:37So anyway, I found LeakSenses
0:17:38that actually just tied directly into HomeKit.
0:17:41I'm gonna try those out as well.
0:17:42But so if you're gonna tell me about Okara stuff,
0:17:46I kind of can't use it unless you can also tell me
0:17:48that they have a product where it doesn't do this.
0:17:50My Googling has not helped me to try and find something
0:17:53that doesn't do this.
0:17:54So yeah.
0:17:57I would love recommendations though if you enjoy stuff in the homekit world.
0:18:04Yes I have checked out many episodes of automators and Mac power users so I assume I've got that,
0:18:11but I would like from listeners too if they have any recommendations.
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0:20:04Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay FM. So shall we do some room around
0:20:11up justice now? Yeah let's do it. All right so I've got a couple of things for you. Digitimes
0:20:16is reporting that the production of Apple's Mixed Reality headset is set to begin in March of 2023.
0:20:22Looking at high prices, low quantities, currently expecting around 700,000 to 800,000 shipments a
0:20:30year. Despite low profitability on production of the initial headset, Apple's manufacturing
0:20:41partners are said to be willing to work with Apple on the project to prove their technical
0:20:45capabilities so they will be well positioned for future AR/VR products. What do you think
0:20:51about this?
0:20:53This product is so strange, right? It is, again, like, low quantities. So are they setting
0:21:02the bar low here? Are they going to be like, well, this is really a first crack at it.
0:21:05I think it's funny because I've always said Apple always wants to sell millions of anything
0:21:10it makes. And here we are talking about low quantities under a million. I mean, it makes
0:21:18me feel more and more that this is more of a tech demonstration and a developer product
0:21:22than it is a, and maybe they'll, they'll, you know, sell it into some industries or
0:21:26something, but like that it's not a consumer product. They don't expect it to be a consumer
0:21:31product and they're perhaps even knowing what the price is. They want to, it's interesting
0:21:36that they want to ship it and call it a product, but also that they may set expectations pretty
0:21:42low for it. I think it's interesting because the other choice would be if you only think
0:21:47you're going to be able to make less than a million of them, don't ship them. But I
0:21:51guess that's what the story is going to be. And when DigiTimes says they will produce
0:21:58it starting in March of 23, it does really make me wonder about the timeline of when
0:22:03this is gonna be announced and when it's gonna ship.
0:22:05'Cause you and I have said for a while
0:22:07that it will probably have its own event.
0:22:09And I think that's probably right.
0:22:12But I do wonder at what point the message becomes
0:22:16very rapidly about it being a developer environment
0:22:20for a future Apple platform as well.
0:22:22And that it becomes more of a developer story.
0:22:25And you're getting, you know,
0:22:27if you're starting to produce them in March,
0:22:28you're getting perilously close to just announcing it
0:22:31WWDC. So I've had a new thought based on this, like just reading these rumors. I
0:22:37could imagine now like an early 2023 announcement, they start the production
0:22:43and then there's a big developer focus on it in June at WWDC. It's a pre-announcement
0:22:48explaining what they're doing and then it ships in June maybe along with a lot
0:22:53of talk at WWDC about it. Maybe, I mean that's what, because this is, let's be
0:22:59honest, like who's buying this thing? Who's buying this thing? It's not meant
0:23:02for the masses, clearly, at the price that it is, and they know that because they're
0:23:06apparently, according to this report, not even expecting to make a lot of them
0:23:11and ship a lot of them. So what's the purpose here? And I think the purpose
0:23:16really is that Apple thinks this is a platform for the future, and so it wants
0:23:21to get developer support behind it. And that's why I keep thinking
0:23:27it's kind of a developer piece of developer hardware slash maybe some targeted industry slash
0:23:35obviously people who just want the cool new thing and that's what this product is and it's not
0:23:41it's not the one for the masses it's it's a couple generations away from being the one for the masses
0:23:48um, I wonder if the, uh, reception to the MetaQuest Pro, which has been bad, I think,
0:23:55uh, that people are like, "It's not really that great, uh, and it's so expensive," and I feel like
0:24:02it's, maybe this is just me because I have a Quest 2, but it feels a little bit like the shine on that
0:24:09old product remains, where they're like, "But this thing is fine, and it's way cheaper, and this thing
0:24:14is so expensive and it's not that much better. I wonder if people who are working on this
0:24:18inside Apple are also looking at that and saying, "Yeah, we're gonna need to do a cheaper
0:24:24version of this real fast if we want people to use our platform." Because if you're a
0:24:28developer, it's great that maybe Apple's saying, "The future is we're gonna do mixed reality
0:24:33and AR and VR and here's our first one and we want you to develop for it." But part of
0:24:37the developer's story is, "Who's gonna buy the work that I'm doing? Who's gonna buy the
0:24:42software I'm building because developers aren't just making a living selling developer apps
0:24:48to other developers, right? Like, there needs to be an audience for it. Who is that? And
0:24:53when are they going to arrive? And if I'm a developer, it's great if you give me a $2,000
0:24:57headset or you sell me a $2,000 headset now with the idea that this is going to be the
0:25:02ground floor of Apple's next great computing platform. Okay, Apple, all right, but what
0:25:08What is my expectation that this is going to be a product for the masses?
0:25:12And one way for Apple to do that would be to say, or at least to be plotting in the
0:25:19background that the product that they're going to release in 2024, at least one of those
0:25:24products is going to be a more affordable version.
0:25:26And maybe they offer the high-end version as well as a more affordable version.
0:25:30I don't know whether they're going to say, "Nope, it's $2,000 or nothing," or what.
0:25:36like if I was a developer, if I'm James Thompson and I'm like, "Finally, my Apple VR calculator/DICE
0:25:42app is going to happen," and you know, James loves this new technology stuff, but if it's
0:25:46a $2,500 headset and he has no reasonable expectation that anybody is going to be a
0:25:52regular person buying it in the millions until 2024, 2025, that's a tough calculation to
0:25:58make beyond your pure enthusiasm for Apple's platforms. So I'm still pretty skeptical of
0:26:03this and I'm only more skeptical of it since the Facebook product, the meta product, seems
0:26:10to have sort of been rushed out in order to beat Apple to the punch and has come out with
0:26:15a thud. That's not great, like that, because Apple's gonna be way more expensive.
0:26:19It seems like meta's issue is the software rather than the hardware. I'm not saying you're
0:26:25saying anything different, but like, the hardware is fine.
0:26:29The hardware seems fine, but there's nothing appreciably…
0:26:32What I was struck by in all the reviews is that it's really more a nice Quest 2.
0:26:42I think a lot of the reviewers are like, "Okay, so?"
0:26:46But for what?
0:26:47Could you have done a nicer Quest 3 with color cameras and a little bit upgraded screen,
0:26:53but it was under $1000 and would that have been a better product than this thing where
0:26:57they seem to have spared no expense, right?
0:26:59But you're right, it's not just that the hardware,
0:27:02the hardware seems okay.
0:27:04They made some questionable decisions.
0:27:05I think there's debatable things
0:27:06in the choices that they made.
0:27:08But what really seems weird is that people try it
0:27:10and they're like, okay, but is it that much better
0:27:13than the other thing?
0:27:14And the answer seems to be not really.
0:27:18And I wonder if there's a lesson there for Apple that like,
0:27:22oh yeah, you might like a $500 VR headset,
0:27:24but wait till you see a $2,500 headset.
0:27:27And the response is gonna be, no,
0:27:30I don't see where that extra 2000 is in value, right?
0:27:32Like I know that it's there in the hardware,
0:27:34but it doesn't provide enough value
0:27:36for anybody to care about it.
0:27:37And I think bottom line is nobody,
0:27:39there's no such thing as a million plus,
0:27:43millions, millions new platform product
0:27:48that's a VR headset for 2,500 bucks, right?
0:27:51Like it's not, that's not gonna happen.
0:27:53It has to come down.
0:27:55So I don't know, I think it's a real challenge
0:27:57if you're a developer and you've been thinking
0:27:59about developing for this platform.
0:28:01Apple does really need to make the case
0:28:02that this is the future and that eventually
0:28:04a lot of people are gonna buy them.
0:28:06Otherwise, not even developers are gonna,
0:28:09why develop apps on a platform that's so expensive
0:28:11that only the developers developing apps can buy it, right?
0:28:13There needs to be an act two there and what is that?
0:28:18- Well, maybe it's this.
0:28:19Mark Gorman is saying that Apple is looking
0:28:22for software engineers to further their work
0:28:24in creating VR environments and the ability to watch video in the headset.
0:28:29Two quotes from job listings via Mark Herman's newsletter.
0:28:34The most interesting job listing is one that specifically calls out the development of
0:28:38a 3D mixed reality world, suggesting that Apple is working on a virtual environment
0:28:42that is similar to the metaverse, so don't expect Apple to embrace that term, and build
0:28:48tools and frameworks to enable connected experiences in a 3D mixed reality world.
0:28:54Mark also references NextVR, which was that company that Apple bought a really long time
0:28:58ago now, which they were like filming sports games and stuff like that. And Apple acquired
0:29:03that company for, it seems like technology and deals and all that kind of stuff.
0:29:08Sure. I mean, they're laying the groundwork here. I think I keep coming back to the question
0:29:13of what's the product that people are going to buy and what's the reason they're going
0:29:16to buy it. And, and the fact is nobody's made a breakthrough VR headset. The Quest 2 is
0:29:21probably the one that has broken through the most and for a while their meta had cut the price and
0:29:28I don't think that would be considered even a hit product but it is at least a viable product and I
0:29:36know that there's some stuff like the HTC Vive and I mean there are a handful but this is not
0:29:42a category that's lighting the world on fire so I appreciate that Apple seems really committed
0:29:47to building this thing, that's great. And maybe they believe that really has to have all of this
0:29:53stuff in order for it to be viable. But the hardware, there have been no reports, right,
0:29:59that Apple is expected at any point in the near future to make something that is going to be
0:30:06priced in a way that lots of people are going to want to buy it. And that's troubling to me.
0:30:12Like as much as they put into it, because it takes both, the calculation is complex, right?
0:30:16The calculation is not just like, what do you do with it?
0:30:20But, and then what do I pay for it?
0:30:22And Apple seems to be working really hard
0:30:24on the what do you do with it and what can it do?
0:30:27But the other part of it, like, it just isn't there yet.
0:30:33And what surprises me is that Apple seems to be devoted
0:30:37to releasing a product so early that it's not a product
0:30:41that anybody should buy, who isn't working in VR
0:30:46or software development.
0:30:47And that doesn't feel like Apple to me,
0:30:50but that may be where they are.
0:30:51- So this actually, it goes back to, I think,
0:30:55what you were saying about Meta a moment ago, right?
0:30:58With the Quest Pro of like, are they getting it out
0:31:01just so they can be Apple?
0:31:03Are Apple going to release this product
0:31:07because they think they have to right now?
0:31:09And if they do, if that is what they're doing,
0:31:12that is not the Apple that we have known in the past, right?
0:31:17Where like typically there's this old adage of like,
0:31:20Apple wait until they've got the thing
0:31:23that's gonna leapfrog everyone else.
0:31:25So you've got to hope that they've got that
0:31:26because if they're doing this because they're like,
0:31:28oh, well, you know, we've kind of got to get into this market
0:31:31so we like can stake our claim.
0:31:33That's not the right way around
0:31:35that they normally do things.
0:31:37- I think part of the motivation here
0:31:39is that there is a competitor out there that views VR as all—at least has up to now,
0:31:47we'll see because, you know, Meta has changed. They laid off a bunch of people, including
0:31:50some people in VR development, and Mark Zuckerberg has gotten a lot of criticism for the amount
0:31:56of money he's putting into it, but up to now Apple's—
0:31:58He's still pressing on it though, even with those layoffs.
0:32:00I know. And Apple is looking at a competitor that almost views VR as an existential crisis
0:32:06for their company, that Meta's future is VR. And Apple looks at that and says, "Okay,
0:32:13they have raised the stakes here. And if we don't get into this game now, even though
0:32:17it's early, it's too early, if we don't get into this game now, we'll be too far behind."
0:32:23And I'll point to the fact that Meta keeps buying. The Quest has been a successful enough
0:32:28platform that it's allowed Meta to identify successes on VR platforms and buy them, right?
0:32:35talked about this. They bought Supernatural, the exercise thing, uh, did they buy Beat
0:32:40Saber?
0:32:41Don't think that one went through. They bought Beat Saber.
0:32:42Or they tried to buy Supernatural and there were questions about it. So this is like,
0:32:46Meta really wants to control this, and if you're Apple, I could see strategically, you're
0:32:51like, "We gotta get out there." Even if it's just a developer kit and it's not something
0:32:54for the masses. What they risk, messaging-wise, is coming out with something nobody wants
0:32:59and everybody's saying, "Oh, it's a flop," and never revisiting it, right? That's the,
0:33:04That is the danger.
0:33:05Because it's Apple, and everybody pays attention to Apple, I'm not sure Apple can sneak a product
0:33:10by and say, "Well, it's not for you."
0:33:13It's like if Apple tried to come out with the only Mac that they made was a Mac Pro.
0:33:17Nobody's gonna use the Mac then, right?
0:33:19It's just not gonna happen.
0:33:20Maybe some people at the very high end will buy it, but that's not a viable platform.
0:33:24Or if the only Apple Watch was the Apple Watch Ultra, right?
0:33:27That wouldn't make any sense.
0:33:28Yeah, but if they feel like they have to be out there, this is...
0:33:31I'm gonna be really interested with how they talk about this
0:33:34because one way you could see this product release is,
0:33:37we believe in the future of VR.
0:33:39And so we have decided to make the best VR headset ever made
0:33:44and it's early in the growth of VR
0:33:47and we expect that this will mostly be of interest
0:33:49to industry and developers right now,
0:33:52but in the future, this is gonna be a huge market
0:33:54and so we're gonna get started now.
0:33:56And if they talk about it in that way
0:33:58and really try to set the bar, honestly, very low,
0:34:02then maybe I can see it.
0:34:03But I do think that they're being motivated
0:34:05by the fact that there are big pocketed competitors
0:34:08who feel like they have to do this to survive.
0:34:12And Apple doesn't have to do this to survive necessarily,
0:34:15but Apple doesn't wanna let this opportunity get away.
0:34:19And so you end up having to raise the stakes yourself
0:34:21to match them.
0:34:22- And the reason we're here
0:34:23and the reason we're having these conversations is
0:34:26everyone's looking for the next platform, right?
0:34:28Like that's, everyone's looking for it.
0:34:30- Right, and Facebook didn't get a phone, right?
0:34:33Facebook doesn't have a platform.
0:34:34They tried and failed, and so now they want the next one.
0:34:37- And this is the only one on the horizon.
0:34:40Like, it might not be the next big platform.
0:34:43- It might not.
0:34:44- But there isn't another one, right?
0:34:47There just isn't one.
0:34:48- In fact, I would say, I said this about the car
0:34:51like five years ago, and I'll say it about VR.
0:34:56It's hard actually not to believe that at some point,
0:35:00if we play the infinite timescale game,
0:35:03it's hard not to believe that the miniaturization
0:35:06of technology will not continue to the point
0:35:08where the devices get smaller and smaller
0:35:11and we have more subtle inputs on our bodies
0:35:14and direct input into our senses via glasses or contacts
0:35:19or whatever it is, or lasers and drones
0:35:21that fire lasers in your eyes, I don't know.
0:35:24- I don't know.
0:35:25Like, but, I don't want it, but maybe it'll happen.
0:35:29So it's hard if you put on your like, "I'm a futurist," that kind of hat.
0:35:37It's got like a propeller on it, but it's a futuristic propeller.
0:35:40And you say, "Long time scale."
0:35:44I think it's hard to argue that integrating more directly with senses is not a strong
0:35:53possibility as where the future of computing devices goes. I mean, not necessarily. I think
0:36:00there's biological reasons why it won't be, right? It's hard to get into the eyes, because
0:36:05you have to have something hanging in front of your face, and that is not easy. But in,
0:36:13and so maybe people will reject it and prefer little screens and stuff that they can hold
0:36:16and fold and unfurl and all of that. But I don't know, I think it's not a bad, what I'm
0:36:22saying is I think it's not a bad bet to make if you're a tech company that has so much
0:36:26money that you don't know what to do with it and you know that it's not going to be
0:36:30like the iPhone Apple was able to kind of do on their own but now it's like everybody
0:36:35knows this is the category and so you're either in or you're out and the stakes are really
0:36:39high I don't know if it's let me put it this way for Apple I think it's a good bet because
0:36:45they've got the money and they don't want to be left behind and and become irrelevant
0:36:49- And they've got everything you need.
0:36:51They've got the operating systems, they have apps,
0:36:53they have app stores, they have the integrations
0:36:56of other devices.
0:36:57If they didn't do this, if they weren't doing this at all,
0:36:59I'd be worried, right?
0:37:00Like it makes sense for them to try.
0:37:02- Yeah, Apple is a rich guy at a high stakes poker game.
0:37:05Facebook feels like it's like a super sweaty guy
0:37:08who is putting all of his money on this bet.
0:37:11And if he doesn't win, he's bankrupt.
0:37:16They are, but I am a lot less confident in their other businesses surviving into the
0:37:21future as I am Apple's business surviving into the future.
0:37:26I don't think you're wrong there at all, and I think that's why they're doing this anyway,
0:37:30right? Like, I think Zuckerberg knows that he owns declining businesses. Like, they're
0:37:36very powerful, but they're not going to continue going up.
0:37:40Right. And if I'm Apple, it's more like this is a hedge against—this is the one technology
0:37:44that could make the iPhone irrelevant.
0:37:46So we need to put money into this as a hedge, right?
0:37:48That's what it is.
0:37:50But I don't think it's unrealistic in the long run.
0:37:53But I'll also point out that people were talking about,
0:37:55like Doug Engelbart designed the mouse in the what,
0:37:58late 60s?
0:38:00And so you're talking about 16 years-ish
0:38:05before the Mac was the first kind of viable product
0:38:09to popularize the mouse as a thing.
0:38:11And I just keep being reminded of like,
0:38:14And there was networking in the '60s and the '70s,
0:38:16but it didn't really go anywhere until the '90s.
0:38:19And personal computers started out in the '70s,
0:38:23but weren't super commonplace,
0:38:26like ubiquitous on everybody's desk in every office
0:38:30until the '90s, right?
0:38:31So you're talking a lot of times these things,
0:38:34everybody knows that that's where it's going,
0:38:36but it doesn't mean it goes there fast
0:38:38because of all the technical reasons.
0:38:39Even if we move faster with our tech now,
0:38:42I think it's not unreasonable to look at this VR stuff
0:38:44and say, it's important to be here,
0:38:47but like is Apple gonna make the iPhone or iPod
0:38:50or whatever of VR goggles in 2025,
0:38:54in the mid 2020s, in the 2020s?
0:38:57And I don't know if anyone is.
0:38:59I mean, this could very well be everybody spending
0:39:02a lot of money to be the last one standing
0:39:04when they finally can get the technology
0:39:06where it needs to be in 2030.
0:39:09And that is not something that,
0:39:11like it's gonna make the press coverage of the meantime
0:39:13of all the money being spent on this pretty brutal,
0:39:16but I'm not convinced that AR and VR isn't that far off.
0:39:20- Well, I will say, because it's just kind of funny on time,
0:39:23the original Oculus Kickstarter was in 2016 in January.
0:39:28So it's been nearly seven years since that.
0:39:34This is just, I think that was like a funny thing of like,
0:39:37oh, it took 16 years.
0:39:38well, we're about halfway from in that idea.
0:39:42So another five or six years.
0:39:44- Right.
0:39:45- Yeah, I mean, it could happen.
0:39:46- Right, but I'm just saying that I think
0:39:48that there's some perspective here about like,
0:39:50don't necessarily figure,
0:39:51like it's hard to look at this stuff and say,
0:39:53oh yeah, it's right on the verge of being popular.
0:39:55And it's gonna go through a cycle
0:39:57like personal computers did,
0:39:59which I think not like smartphones did.
0:40:02I think smartphones happened a lot faster
0:40:03where people are like, oh, wait a second,
0:40:05that my phone could, let's do that.
0:40:07Like, that's gonna be my next phone.
0:40:09But personal computers, it was very much like,
0:40:12it's expensive, it's for hobbyists, it's for universities.
0:40:16We're gonna try to expose kids to it in school
0:40:19by having one, just one,
0:40:22that kids will cluster around or take and turn, right?
0:40:26Like, and then it was, okay,
0:40:28some businesses are gonna have a few in a few places.
0:40:32And then some people who've got enough money,
0:40:35like media moguls are gonna buy power books
0:40:38and that's gonna be a thing,
0:40:40but that it really did take a long time
0:40:44to get to the point where it's sort of like,
0:40:45there's a computer on every desk
0:40:47and everybody's got a laptop
0:40:48and every house has a computer.
0:40:49Like it took a long time for it to grow like that
0:40:54because you had to get the prices down
0:40:57and have the reason that you would do it up
0:41:00to the point where you could get there.
0:41:02And in some parts of the world that never got there
0:41:03and the smartphone is what got it there.
0:41:05So, VR feels a little bit like that to me.
0:41:08I don't feel like we're on the verge
0:41:09of a VR breakthrough here.
0:41:10I think that this is all about
0:41:12companies spending a lot of money
0:41:13to shorten that time to a viable product.
0:41:16But in the meantime, you have Apple coming out
0:41:18with a $2,500 headset, and it's just, I don't know.
0:41:23It could be a very cool product,
0:41:26but how cool is it if nobody is gonna buy it, right?
0:41:30That's not, part of what makes a product successful
0:41:33is that people buy it, right?
0:41:35It can't just be good.
0:41:36Even if it's good, if nobody's gonna buy it,
0:41:39it's a failure.
0:41:40- Just as a clarification from the Discord,
0:41:45the Kickstarter was in 2012.
0:41:48The last update was in 2016,
0:41:50took many years to ship. - There you go.
0:41:51- But the idea of like, well, it's been 10 years now,
0:41:53it's been 10 years since the Oculus Rift.
0:41:56- 10 years since the Kickstarter, right?
0:41:59- But that was since it was viable, right?
0:42:01They were talking about the viability thing,
0:42:02not release, right?
0:42:03because you know, saying that the viable design
0:42:05of the mouse was 16 years before the mouse was in wide use.
0:42:10So it's just, it's fun.
0:42:11- I wanted to mention one thing, which is,
0:42:13I don't want to sound like I'm down on VR
0:42:15because I think that VR has some uses.
0:42:16I have said on here before, I have a Quest 2.
0:42:20I like it, it's nice.
0:42:23It's not great, right?
0:42:25It's not like, oh my God, the resolution,
0:42:27everything's kind of grainy and all that,
0:42:28but it works really well, the head tracking works well.
0:42:31I never feel kind of like motion sick in it.
0:42:34I think it keeps up the illusion remarkably well.
0:42:37And it was relatively cheap.
0:42:41It was relatively affordable
0:42:42as a kind of a under the Christmas tree present
0:42:46a couple of years ago.
0:42:47That is a reason to be optimistic, I think,
0:42:53because it suggests that there are compromises you can make
0:42:57to make a product that is more affordable.
0:43:00and there are a lot of games on it that are fun.
0:43:02I feel like they're figuring out with that product
0:43:06sort of what is good on a VR headset.
0:43:09And it's a standalone, which is really nice
0:43:11as opposed to the PSVR that I had that was,
0:43:13you had to tether it and there were a million cables.
0:43:15There's a lot going for it,
0:43:16even though it has not set the world on fire.
0:43:20I think that I'm encouraged by the success
0:43:23and quality of that product.
0:43:25And it says to me that while Apple and Facebook
0:43:28seem to be building the high-end headsets here in order to show the possibility of this.
0:43:33There's room for more affordable headsets. And I hope that Apple dares to go there, right?
0:43:40Because I think that that's going to be required. I think you're going to need to have the – Mark
0:43:46Germin keeps talking about the Apple Reality Pro and Reality One as the name for these
0:43:51products. I would say I think it would be good for Apple to have a Reality Pro and then
0:43:57and follow it up with a Reality One, if you get my meaning.
0:44:02And the Reality One would be a lot cheaper
0:44:05than the Reality Pro.
0:44:06I think they need to get there.
0:44:08- And I'll just stay before we move on too.
0:44:10I am, I think even more than you,
0:44:13I am more optimistic about this as a platform
0:44:16just in general in technology.
0:44:17Like, I don't think that AR/VR
0:44:20is necessarily the next smartphone,
0:44:24but I think it's the next tablet, the next watch, right?
0:44:27Like I think it is a market with a lot of potential.
0:44:32- Right, another $20 million, $30 million a year
0:44:35business for Apple in five or 10 years, yeah.
0:44:38- And I am personally more into mixed reality and VR
0:44:43than pure AR.
0:44:45Like I worry a little bit about pure AR,
0:44:48like constantly visually connected to a computer
0:44:52that I don't like so much.
0:44:53I like the intentionality of the bigger headsets,
0:44:56but we'll see where it goes.
0:44:57But that's not all on this for today.
0:45:00- No, there's more.
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0:47:05So you mentioned earlier, like, where is the value gonna be in this headset, right?
0:47:12Like if it's gonna be $2,000, $3,000.
0:47:16So why don't we pick some things?
0:47:18Why don't we spend Apple's money for them?
0:47:21We're gonna invent some things that might be on the device.
0:47:25I did send you a message over the weekend.
0:47:26I said, "I got an idea.
0:47:27Why don't we talk about what could be in this thing?
0:47:30What could be in this thing?"
0:47:32Could I start off with what I think is one of the reasons that they're making a lot
0:47:35lot of decisions that they're making, very high resolution display inside of
0:47:40the headset. I think this is the key factor here because you know one of the
0:47:47things that people are saying about the Quest Pro is like so many things are
0:47:51better about the hardware but the displays are still not high resolution
0:47:55enough that you can still kind of see pixels. I mean we've seen lots of rumors
0:48:01that suggest 8K displays, right? An 8K display for every eye.
0:48:05Dual 8K displays.
0:48:08And this could, if they're building around this,
0:48:11it will make the experience better, you would hope,
0:48:13and they have that foveated rendering thing,
0:48:15which PlayStation is going to be doing,
0:48:19and this is where it uses eye tracking to see where you're looking
0:48:23and then just render what's in front of you,
0:48:25which brings down some of the processing power required,
0:48:27especially if you're going to have so many pixels.
0:48:29This is, if they do this high resolution display stuff,
0:48:33it's going to have a couple of knock-on effects.
0:48:35One, it will be very expensive and difficult to produce.
0:48:38Two, I mean, you can just throw battery out the window,
0:48:43right, which suggests, I mean,
0:48:46there have been rumors in the past about the idea
0:48:48of this needing to potentially be tethered.
0:48:51This is going back a long time.
0:48:52- I haven't seen, it sounds to me like Apple has decided
0:48:55that this has to all be on board,
0:48:57that nobody wants to be connected to a cord.
0:48:59We'll see.
0:49:00But it could need to be tethered,
0:49:02or it could need to be tethered to battery,
0:49:03or it may just have a very short battery life
0:49:06if it's gonna be driving these kinds of displays.
0:49:09Could also make it heavy, right, with a larger battery.
0:49:12So who knows, right?
0:49:13But I think that going to those kinds of,
0:49:16that kind of display technology
0:49:18is going to have a lot of interesting knock-on effects,
0:49:21but the hope would be, I guess from their side,
0:49:24of like, if we go to this level,
0:49:26we can show a higher quality experience,
0:49:29and that's what will push them forward.
0:49:31- Yeah, I mean, clearly.
0:49:33So that brings up something that I wanted to mention,
0:49:35which is content in terms of like video content.
0:49:40- Yeah.
0:49:41- And I know we mentioned this in passing
0:49:43from that Mark Gurman report,
0:49:45but I feel like this has been clear for a while.
0:49:47First off, so many movies still get made in 3D
0:49:51or converted to 3D,
0:49:53and they often have IMAX versions
0:49:55with stretched aspect ratios, they're very tall.
0:49:58And I was thinking that if I'm Apple and I've got a streaming service and I've got a video store
0:50:05that one of the things I'm gonna do for any headset that I produce is I'm going to get a
0:50:11complete library of all 3d
0:50:13movies and IMAX movies that are out there and have that available and
0:50:17potentially even if you already bought it on iTunes you get it in this other form or maybe you have to buy it separately or
0:50:23You can rent it or whatever. But and I know you're sitting there thinking
0:50:28"Yeah, but who wants to watch a movie with a headset on?"
0:50:30Like, I hear you, but I'll tell you
0:50:33that even on the low resolution Oculus Quest,
0:50:36I have watched some stuff in 3D.
0:50:38- It's pretty good.
0:50:40- It's pretty good.
0:50:41It's pretty good.
0:50:42It is, it's not something I will wanna do all day long,
0:50:45but for the length of a movie or a TV show,
0:50:48whether it was on an airplane or something,
0:50:51or if I'm just sitting at home,
0:50:52and I've got immersive, presumably, audio as well,
0:50:55like, just as a virtual movie theater
0:50:57that's showing you something that the equivalent
0:50:59of like 4K quality and it's in 3D, it's kind of fun.
0:51:04And in fact, I would say it's a way better experience
0:51:07than sitting in a movie theater with cardboard 3D glasses
0:51:10over your eyes because it's bright,
0:51:13because it's not cutting, it's not a single projection
0:51:16with two different fields in it,
0:51:17it's two different eyepieces
0:51:19with two different sets of frame in them.
0:51:22And so it's for me a better experience than movie theater 3D
0:51:27even at the reduced quality of the Quest 2.
0:51:29So imagining a much higher resolution screen
0:51:32on an Apple device,
0:51:33I think that that could be really good content.
0:51:36They would also presumably do,
0:51:38start saying, no, we need to do 3D conversions
0:51:41of all of our Apple TV+ content as well,
0:51:44so that stuff's gonna be available,
0:51:45or a lot of it is gonna be available in 3D,
0:51:47so if you watch it this way, it's gonna blow you away.
0:51:49And I think that Apple, as we've talked about here a lot,
0:51:52Apple's interest in doing sports coverage
0:51:55is definitely a place where not just the 3D aspect
0:51:58that's fundamental to having a headset,
0:52:00but also an immersive VR kind of idea
0:52:04where you could choose to have,
0:52:06like they offer their sports broadcast,
0:52:08but they also offer a VR version
0:52:10that perhaps puts you in a different spot
0:52:12or lets you choose where you are in the stadium
0:52:14and watch it as if you're watching it from a seat
0:52:17with, you know, choose your audio.
0:52:19There are lots of things they could experiment with.
0:52:21Some of them are gonna be dumb
0:52:22and some of them might be great,
0:52:24But why not experiment with that,
0:52:25especially if you're producing your own sports programming
0:52:29as Apple sounds like they're going to be doing.
0:52:32So I just, I wanted to throw that in there
0:52:34as a thing that I think would help
0:52:36any future Apple headset is just getting
0:52:39some video content for it.
0:52:40- I mean, they have the ability to create video content.
0:52:43They could create specific video content, right?
0:52:46Like, why not do a TV show that's shot in video?
0:52:50They could do that if they wanted to,
0:52:52like from a fixed position,
0:52:53and you could look around you.
0:52:55I don't know if it would be entertaining,
0:52:57but you could do it.
0:52:58By the way, I did a quick Google search.
0:53:00So there was a report in the information.
0:53:02This is what messed me up.
0:53:04There were two options that Apple were looking at.
0:53:07One was tethered with a base station
0:53:08featuring a chip that went on to become the M1 Ultra,
0:53:12and one was a standalone unit,
0:53:13and it seems like they were going down the route
0:53:15of the standalone unit.
0:53:17- Yeah, with an M2, essentially.
0:53:19- So that was what mixed me up.
0:53:21It was in the works at some point,
0:53:23but it seems like it's probably not what
0:53:25they're gonna go with.
0:53:26As talking about content,
0:53:28I think an easy one for me, spatial audio, right?
0:53:31- Yeah.
0:53:32- They're building some speakers into the headset
0:53:34and have some kind of spatial audio feature.
0:53:36Seems like an obvious one.
0:53:38Apple will say they've got spatial audio in everything,
0:53:40right, it's in your laptop.
0:53:42So there's no reason why they wouldn't want
0:53:43to do it here too.
0:53:45- And I would think AirPods integration as well.
0:53:47So if you don't want to have the,
0:53:49'cause I don't think it's gonna be the thing
0:53:50where you put it on and then it has things
0:53:52that you stick over your ears, right?
0:53:55Instead what they'll do is, and the Quest does this,
0:53:57it's got speakers in it that are right by your ears
0:53:59that give you that kind of effect.
0:54:01And if you want, you can put headphones on
0:54:04and it's a much more immersive effect.
0:54:05And so I imagine that that'll be the argument
0:54:07as you put in some AirPods and they automatically pair
0:54:10and now you get the kind of complete lockout experience
0:54:13so people near you cannot hear the sounds
0:54:15that you're hearing 'cause they're just,
0:54:17it's almost like open backed headphones kind of thing.
0:54:19it's like if you're not wearing headphones
0:54:20and you're doing a VR thing,
0:54:21other people around you can hear you
0:54:22because they're literally speakers out into the air,
0:54:25but you pop in some AirPods.
0:54:27And yeah, in fact, I would argue spatial audio
0:54:30probably was prioritized at Apple because of this project.
0:54:35That's my feeling is that this is a,
0:54:38this feels very much like it's something
0:54:39that went part and parcel with the headset project
0:54:42to do spatial placement of audio.
0:54:44- Can I throw in another one real quick?
0:54:47- Yeah, sure. - 'Cause I think
0:54:48you had it too.
0:54:49Not a draft.
0:54:50You just mentioned the idea of like, well maybe they created it for VR, Memoji.
0:54:55I think could have also been partly created as this idea of like, we need to create lifelike
0:55:00avatars that are expressive and we want to have years of tracking faces and learning
0:55:08how that can work to create these avatars.
0:55:11This could be a big, big thing for them.
0:55:14have been really made fun of for the way that their avatars look, right? This is going back
0:55:19a while now. And if Apple can make Memoji work well and work well in an expressive way
0:55:27inside of VR, that could be a really big deal for them.
0:55:31Yeah, I agree. In fact, I will then ping-pong off of what you just said and talk about collaboration.
0:55:38'cause I think that this is, so we saw with,
0:55:40we've seen the latest round of OS updates
0:55:43that Apple announced in June,
0:55:45they've started to lean into this idea of cloud,
0:55:48iCloud based basically collaboration.
0:55:50And what's funny about it is that it's,
0:55:53it's all on Apple's platforms or the web.
0:55:55And yet, they wanna make it a thing.
0:55:59And so I keep thinking about, okay,
0:56:01so they've got like, they've got iCloud document
0:56:03collaboration, they've got SharePlay, they've got Memoji,
0:56:07they've got FaceTime, roll it all together, right?
0:56:11And yes, it probably means things like,
0:56:14oh, and isn't there a rumor about how they're gonna make it
0:56:17so that you can just do Memojis with,
0:56:20or is that, or can you already do that?
0:56:22You can already do FaceTime with a Memoji
0:56:24instead of you, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:56:26- So we're already there.
0:56:27I think it's Zoom announced
0:56:29that you're gonna be able to do that on Zoom now.
0:56:30You're gonna have like a virtual avatar instead of you.
0:56:33So that's a thing.
0:56:35So the idea of having a FaceTime conversation
0:56:37where one person's holding a phone
0:56:39and looking at the camera
0:56:40and another person is emoji using a headset,
0:56:42like that's fine.
0:56:44Zoom has already done things like this,
0:56:47but like Apple's got the whole,
0:56:48all their photographic engine stuff
0:56:51where they pull subjects out of the background,
0:56:55which might be a more sophisticated version
0:56:57of what Zoom does,
0:56:58where they detect your background
0:57:00and then they pull you out of it.
0:57:01And Zoom even has a mode that's hilarious
0:57:03where they like put you in a setting.
0:57:05It's like everybody in the meeting is at a table,
0:57:07even though it's just a cut out of their body of the video
0:57:10without the background. - Teams does this too,
0:57:11of like making it look like you're in an auditorium
0:57:13or something. - Right.
0:57:14So like, it's not hard to imagine
0:57:16that Apple might use some of that
0:57:18to try and create kind of collaboration environments
0:57:21where people are placed in physical spaces in VR.
0:57:26And some of them have emoji
0:57:28and some of them might even be people's video images.
0:57:31Like I can see them going down that route now.
0:57:33Is that something people want?
0:57:35- Yeah, this is Horizon Workrooms.
0:57:37This is what Horizon Workrooms is.
0:57:39- It is Horizon Workrooms,
0:57:41is what Facebook or Meta has been trying to do.
0:57:45But I could definitely see the idea of,
0:57:47and SharePlay I mentioned,
0:57:49because I talked about movies, right?
0:57:51Well, one thing you could do with watching a movie,
0:57:54I can totally imagine Apple doing this,
0:57:56is you watch it with your friends in VR with SharePlay.
0:58:00And if you've never done any of this,
0:58:04the way I watch video on a Quest is in an app
0:58:08that puts you in a movie theater with a screen.
0:58:11And you can set how close to the screen you wanna be,
0:58:14but they don't put the movie all the way,
0:58:16'cause it's really bad.
0:58:17That's like you're standing in front of the movie screen.
0:58:19Nobody watches a movie that way.
0:58:21They put you in a movie theater,
0:58:22and you can actually, I mean,
0:58:23you can have it be like you're on an asteroid or whatever,
0:58:26but the one that I use is you're in a movie theater,
0:58:29and there's seats, and you can choose
0:58:30how dim you want the lights to be,
0:58:31and then there's the big screen up there
0:58:32and how close you wanna be.
0:58:34And one of the ideas there is,
0:58:36you could have your friends come
0:58:37and watch the movie with you.
0:58:38So imagine a scenario where it's like SharePlay,
0:58:41but you're in a VR space, right?
0:58:43But you're in a VR space
0:58:44and your friends Memoji is sitting next to you
0:58:47and you can talk during the movie
0:58:48and nobody's gonna shush you except maybe your friends.
0:58:51And you can hear them talk and you can also watch the movie
0:58:53and it's an actual like sharing kind of experience.
0:58:56So I feel like Apple's gonna try all that stuff.
0:58:59again, when we say all the pieces,
0:59:01they've got all these pieces,
0:59:02it does feel like in addition to making these pieces
0:59:05available for their existing platforms,
0:59:06they've also been sort of building all the parts
0:59:10to put into a VR product.
0:59:13- Yeah, SharePlay.
0:59:15That one I lied, as soon as you started saying it,
0:59:18it was like, I felt like the scales were falling
0:59:20from my eyes, like SharePlay makes so much sense.
0:59:24- Yeah, I don't know if people like it or not,
0:59:25but I feel like in some ways,
0:59:28it might be nice to watch a movie or a TV show
0:59:30with your friends in a virtual space
0:59:32because it would be less lonely, right?
0:59:34If it's just you with your headset on, it's just you.
0:59:36It's very solitary.
0:59:38And also that might actually be a less weird kind of like,
0:59:42oh, we're doing a text. - Way less weird
0:59:43than the way you do it now.
0:59:44- Right, like it would just be,
0:59:46we're sitting in a movie theater.
0:59:48- With SharePlay, like if you want to do the video version,
0:59:50like you've got to actually have you on video, right?
0:59:52Which maybe you don't want to do,
0:59:53but you would have the same,
0:59:55a very similar experience of presence,
0:59:58which is the thing that's really cool about VR,
1:00:00even more so actually,
1:00:01'cause you would turn to the left and look at your friend.
1:00:04I actually think that would be a really cool thing to do
1:00:07and would be a fun thing to experience.
1:00:09This is very nebulous,
1:00:12but one of the things that I expect from Apple
1:00:14is some kind of smart way that you wear the headset.
1:00:18I'm thinking of Apple Watch bands, right?
1:00:22They really did a good job of how you put the watch on to your body.
1:00:29And at the moment, every VR headset is a clunky experience in some way.
1:00:35How you put it on, how you have to adjust it, all that kind of stuff.
1:00:39I'm hoping that Apple have come up with some kind of better way of handling that experience.
1:00:49Handling that part of it all.
1:00:52So I don't know what that might be, but I just want them to make it more elegant.
1:00:57It's not like Meta doesn't have industrial designers, because they absolutely do.
1:01:01It does sound like there's been some criticism about the way that the design of the new product
1:01:07is, and the Quest 2, you know, it shipped with a terrible headband, and then you could
1:01:12buy one that was good.
1:01:14The new one is better in that they weight it a bit better, like there's more battery
1:01:17on the back and lighter on the front.
1:01:19And it's got this like turning wheel thing,
1:01:22which is better than the Velcro, but still not ideal.
1:01:24- Yeah, well, the turning wheel is on the upgraded version
1:01:27of the Quest 2 head strap that I bought.
1:01:30Yeah, oh, it's so much better.
1:01:32The turning wheel, it's to make it tighter or looser
1:01:35around your head.
1:01:37Yeah, it's a much better design.
1:01:39So all that said, I think about Apple,
1:01:41and I know Apple's had a bunch of turnover and all that,
1:01:43but like you would like to think
1:01:45that Apple's industrial design people
1:01:47and would design a really nice headset
1:01:51that would be as comfortable to wear as possible.
1:01:54You would really expect that.
1:01:55I expect them to raise the bar there.
1:01:58I'll be disappointed if they don't
1:02:00because I feel like having Apple
1:02:03think about the human experience
1:02:06of putting this on your face,
1:02:08like I would really hope
1:02:09that they have put in some good work there.
1:02:11I don't know what that is either, right?
1:02:13But like you mentioned Apple Watch bands,
1:02:14that's a good example.
1:02:16I've got two more and you've got one more.
1:02:18I am going to say thinking of services,
1:02:23immersive, fitness plus, workouts and integration.
1:02:27One of the successes, I know, again,
1:02:30if you've never done this, you're like,
1:02:31exercising a VR headset sounds like bizarre.
1:02:35One of the real successes of the Quest
1:02:38has been the Supernatural Workout app and Beat Saber,
1:02:41which is essentially a workout app game.
1:02:46they are very successful and you work up a sweat.
1:02:48I do that, I do Beat Saber and I also play table tennis
1:02:52with 11 table tennis and you can work up a sweat
1:02:55with both of those things, right?
1:02:57So it's actually a thing, right?
1:02:59Because the idea there is exercise might be boring
1:03:02and you can make it more interesting
1:03:03if you strap a thing to your face
1:03:05and show you interesting things.
1:03:06So, Fitness Plus could be workouts in the studio
1:03:09that are more VR where you're actually sitting
1:03:12among all the people on the bikes or whatever.
1:03:15It could be moving through real spaces.
1:03:18The idea that when you're doing a bike,
1:03:20they have immersive bike workouts
1:03:22where you actually are pedaling through an environment
1:03:24and depending on how you're pedaling,
1:03:26or walking on a, or running on a treadmill,
1:03:30like you're moving through virtual spaces
1:03:31so that it's more entertaining that way.
1:03:34And if you imagine the burn bar idea that they have about,
1:03:37like, are you in the back of the pack,
1:03:39or the front of the pack and all that,
1:03:40having a group of other participants, virtual participants,
1:03:44'cause it's all presumably not live,
1:03:47that you're moving through as a motivator
1:03:49of like you're behind the Peloton
1:03:50or you're ahead of the Peloton.
1:03:52That would be interesting too.
1:03:54And then I will throw in also as well,
1:03:56you could even do it based on the video game concept
1:03:58of the ghosts, right?
1:03:59Where you could like do a run workout or a bike workout
1:04:03and see your previous workouts as like milestones
1:04:07of like this is, you're gonna be chasing your best workout
1:04:10and make sure you get ahead of them.
1:04:11There's a lot of potential there.
1:04:13And I would imagine that there are people
1:04:14who've thought a lot about this inside of Apple
1:04:16for how you use fitness apps in general
1:04:20and Fitness Plus in particular
1:04:22as one of the ways to do,
1:04:25you get people to wanna use a headset.
1:04:27- And the last one that I wanted to mention,
1:04:30this is in a conversation I had
1:04:32with _DavidSmith a while ago.
1:04:35Widgets, this isn't really a thing about,
1:04:38like it could be inexpensive, but just the experience.
1:04:40Like I could imagine one of the things
1:04:42that they will want you to be doing here
1:04:44is to sit and work with this thing.
1:04:47Like, you're actually sitting at your desk and doing work,
1:04:50and you've got, like, large displays in front of you
1:04:52that are displayed because of, you know, whatever.
1:04:55And I thought it would be kind of cool to use
1:04:59some, like, AR kind of feature of being able to pin widgets.
1:05:05Like, we see them on iOS, right,
1:05:07like, in different parts of your room.
1:05:09Like, I would imagine, like, you could select some widgets
1:05:11and basically stick them on your wall,
1:05:13and you could just turn your head and look at the widgets
1:05:16and go back to what you were doing.
1:05:18I thought that that kind of idea would be pretty cool
1:05:20if they did something like that,
1:05:22using that technology that they've been building
1:05:24in another way, I think it'd be kind of fun.
1:05:27- And I will close out with the reason
1:05:30that I actually brought this topic up to you,
1:05:35which is my moment in reading Mark Gurman say,
1:05:37it'll probably have an M2 processor in it.
1:05:39And I thought, I was thinking about Horizon Workrooms
1:05:42and I was thinking, you know, I would not put it past Apple
1:05:46to have this headset let you have a Mac on it.
1:05:50And I mean like literally a Mac on it.
1:05:55Like you could do screen sharing to another Mac of yours.
1:05:57That's what Horizon Workrooms does
1:05:59and with a higher resolution,
1:06:00being able to see your screen.
1:06:02But I was thinking, what if you could travel with this
1:06:06and maybe a keyboard or a virtual keyboard,
1:06:08depending on your input and virtual mouse
1:06:10or whatever you want.
1:06:11but like it's an M2, what if you could travel
1:06:15and not bring your computer with you
1:06:16because you could run macOS in a virtual space on it
1:06:20and iOS apps as well on it
1:06:23and create like a virtual work environment
1:06:25that you could boot up that would be on the network
1:06:27and run all your apps and back things up
1:06:30and be a Mac essentially, but in a virtual space.
1:06:34Like I don't, again, do you wanna work on it all day?
1:06:38No, but I think that there might be something there
1:06:42in terms of being able to run certain apps
1:06:44or get some work done.
1:06:45And if it is a corporate,
1:06:47potentially a corporate and industry product as well,
1:06:52having that as a capability.
1:06:54But I just had that moment where I thought,
1:06:56the hardware is gonna be able to run macOS if it wants to.
1:06:59What if you virtualize macOS?
1:07:00And so then you go on your trip somewhere
1:07:03and you bring the headset.
1:07:04And if you need to log into work, you can do that,
1:07:07but you don't need to bring a laptop
1:07:08with you at all, you just bring the headset.
1:07:10It's a wacky idea and yet, they could do it.
1:07:12- Or even if it's just a case of like using it as a screen,
1:07:16but yes, it would be more fun to be able
1:07:18to actually just virtualize macOS.
1:07:20It's gonna be running a chip that could do it, so.
1:07:22- And friend of the show, Zach, in the chat room says
1:07:24there's no way that they would let them open a terminal
1:07:27on a new product class from Apple.
1:07:29But it's like, well, yeah, but what if it's a virtual Mac?
1:07:31Right, like opening the terminal on the virtual Mac
1:07:34or on a, like I can screen share to a Mac from my iPad
1:07:39and open a terminal window there.
1:07:41In a certain way, it would not be a big deal
1:07:45because it would literally be like,
1:07:46you can run a Mac inside this in the virtual world.
1:07:49And it's an actual Mac that's running
1:07:52inside a virtual machine inside this virtual world.
1:07:55Like if somebody found that valuable, sure, why not do that?
1:07:59And why not have a virtual like iPad or iPhone too,
1:08:03if you really wanted to, but it just,
1:08:04it was that moment where I thought, okay,
1:08:06Horizon Workrooms has the thing
1:08:07where you install software on your laptop
1:08:09and then your laptop appears in the virtual world
1:08:11and it's very low resolution,
1:08:12but you can sit there typing into your laptop
1:08:14and see the results on the screen.
1:08:15I thought, okay, okay, but what if you could just run it?
1:08:20Just have a Mac in your virtual space
1:08:23that you could turn on and it was a Mac.
1:08:26That would be interesting.
1:08:28And I don't know, who knows?
1:08:30- If you enjoy the show,
1:08:32If you really enjoy tuning in to upgrade every single week
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1:09:29In Upgrade Plus today, we're going to be talking about Wakanda Forever.
1:09:32We've both seen it and we want to talk about it.
1:09:35Been like maybe in previous weeks, last week's was really good.
1:09:37We spoke about the disaster of Twitter a lot last week.
1:09:40So that's the thing that's available to you.
1:09:43Go to getupgradeplus.com.
1:09:45You can sign up, support the show and get bonus content.
1:09:47Let's finish out today's episode with some hashtag #AskUpgradeQuestions.
1:09:53John asks, in the discussions about Twitter,
1:09:58I haven't heard much about the one thing that would push me off the service, being forced
1:10:02to use the official app. Surely Elon will cut the third-party clients sooner rather
1:10:07than later, right? What do you think?
1:10:09My feeling, I mean, talk about the missed opportunity, is that for a long time, Twitter
1:10:14should, could have made a lot of money by just saying if you want to use a third-party
1:10:18client, you have to be a subscriber. For whatever the cost of whatever became Twitter blue was,
1:10:24but just make a subscription where like, alright, you want to use a third-party client, that's
1:10:28fine, pay us $5 a month or $10 a month or whatever, and that is, in addition to all
1:10:33the other features it gives you, it lets you use a third-party client. I'd be okay
1:10:36with that. But I agree with Jon in the sense that yes, if Twitter, like as we
1:10:43said in Upgrade Plus, I find so much value in parts of Twitter that I
1:10:50feel it's unlikely that I'm gonna get off of Twitter completely unless it
1:10:56implodes entirely, it's like literally stops working.
1:10:59There is no Twitter left. Or that all of the information sources that I have that I find
1:11:05valuable disappear from Twitter is then it is valueless to me. But I'll tell you, if
1:11:11I can't use my third-party apps of choice, or in this case it's Twitterific for me, if
1:11:15I can't use Twitterific to be on Twitter or any other third-party app, and I have to use
1:11:21Twitter's apps or their website, that will probably be the thing that gets me off Twitter.
1:11:26- Interesting.
1:11:27I think they 100% will kill them.
1:11:30I'm surprised he hasn't done it already.
1:11:32I just think he just doesn't know, honestly.
1:11:34- It's possible, although again, at this point,
1:11:36given that they seem to be trying very hard
1:11:38to come up with reasons
1:11:39that you would subscribe to Twitter Blue,
1:11:42I wouldn't put it past them to just say,
1:11:44"Third-party clients now have to be
1:11:46"only for Twitter Blue subscribers."
1:11:48- But Twitter Blue still has ads.
1:11:51Like, he needs you,
1:11:52he needs all the money you can possibly get, right?
1:11:55I know what you're saying,
1:11:56but I don't imagine that the API is gonna stick around.
1:12:01- Well, this requires a level of coherency
1:12:04that I don't think that the company has right now.
1:12:06But in the long run, what should have happened all along
1:12:08was that they should have said, okay,
1:12:10instead of saying we're gonna not do the API
1:12:12and you're all gonna die, and oh, well, not right,
1:12:14you can hang on and be a third-party client,
1:12:16but it's not gonna be very good.
1:12:18What they should have said way back when was,
1:12:20we're gonna keep doing the API,
1:12:22we're gonna upgrade the API,
1:12:23but here's what's gonna happen.
1:12:24You have to be a Twitter subscriber, whatever that is,
1:12:27in order to have access to it in your app.
1:12:29So you're gonna have to have a,
1:12:30it's gonna have to be connected to an app
1:12:32that is a Twitter subscriber.
1:12:34And separately, you are going to, you the app developer,
1:12:39we are going to, in the API, provide you with ads
1:12:41that you have to show, right?
1:12:43They said you have to display, you know,
1:12:47it can't be a star, it has to be a heart,
1:12:49and you have to have these three icons.
1:12:51Like they put all of these restrictions in there,
1:12:53But what they didn't do is say,
1:12:54"And also we're gonna provide you an ad
1:12:56"that you have to display in the feed."
1:12:58They could have, they could still.
1:13:00Will they?
1:13:01Yeah, no, probably not,
1:13:02because that would require a lot of effort
1:13:04and they seem to have lost half their people.
1:13:06So, yeah.
1:13:07But anyway, I think that they could have done that.
1:13:10And I think you're right,
1:13:11other than the fact that it's just been ignored,
1:13:13it would seem to be a very easy thing for Elon
1:13:18to hear about that there are third-party clients
1:13:21that don't see ads and don't do an algorithmic timeline
1:13:23and say, "Just cut 'em off."
1:13:24- I feel like it will happen.
1:13:26It's just a matter of time.
1:13:27- Yeah, well, that would probably push me over the edge
1:13:30because my Twitter life has been entirely mediated
1:13:33by Twitterific, and if I'm now using the Twitter app
1:13:37or their website, yeah, probably not.
1:13:40- I think that, I mean, but maybe I would say at this point
1:13:43it's, you might not get to it before it shuts down,
1:13:48stuff's working. - Right, right.
1:13:50What a battle, what a battle.
1:13:52it's Listeros or the lettuce.
1:13:54- Oh boy.
1:13:57Michael asks, "Do you think Apple will actually put
1:14:00a USB-C port on the next generation of iPhones
1:14:03or will they try to find another way
1:14:05to be compliant with the EU rule?"
1:14:07- I think everybody's overthinking this.
1:14:11I feel like the USB-C transition in the iPhone
1:14:14was always inevitable.
1:14:15Apple has been making that transition
1:14:17on all of its other products.
1:14:19I suspect that they've been targeting 2023
1:14:21to do it all along and that it has nothing to do with the EU at all.
1:14:27Yeah and also I mean I've had a cursory read of the ruling. There kind of isn't a
1:14:33way around it. No. Unless they've... because I actually don't even think that they
1:14:39could go all Qi charging. Like I don't think that that's the thing that they
1:14:43could do right now or at least not do easily without the EU, especially on
1:14:49on their first attempt getting all up in their business?
1:14:54- In fact, I think this has been a plan for Apple all along
1:14:57because we have had those rumors about,
1:14:58well, it's just gonna be portless,
1:14:59but it's like that has seemed unrealistic.
1:15:01It's possible that they kept stringing along
1:15:03the Lightning port 'cause they hoped
1:15:04that they would never have to do USB-C
1:15:05and they'd just go to portless,
1:15:06but I've never really thought that that was a realistic goal.
1:15:09I feel like you need to do something.
1:15:11Maybe they've got some smart connector kind of thing
1:15:14in the works, but they don't have it ready yet.
1:15:17But I prefer the simple solution,
1:15:21which is they knew that they were gonna bring
1:15:22all their products over to USB-C.
1:15:24It was only a matter of time.
1:15:26That includes the mouse and the track pad and AirPods cases.
1:15:30Like they knew they had to get there eventually,
1:15:33but it is expensive to redesign your product
1:15:35so that they put it off as long as they could.
1:15:38And that the EU will be a,
1:15:40perhaps get them to do it a little faster
1:15:42than they would have done it, but that they will do it.
1:15:44- And also be a shield, right?
1:15:46It's like a PR shield.
1:15:46- Blame the EU this time, yeah.
1:15:49Instead of everybody will be like,
1:15:50"Oh, Apple, you changed the connector again."
1:15:52Like a decade ago when they changed it the last time,
1:15:54it's been a long time, but they're like,
1:15:56"Oh, Apple, they keep changing the connector
1:15:57every year or two."
1:15:58Not true, but people will say that.
1:16:00And Apple will be like, "It's not me, man, it's the EU.
1:16:02It's the EU, they made us do it."
1:16:04Blame the Europeans, it's Brussels' fault.
1:16:08They did the sprouts and they took away your lightning
1:16:10and it's their fault.
1:16:11- It's their fault.
1:16:12Richard asks, "Do you think apps like Uber
1:16:16will actually use live activities.
1:16:18Uber has recently started in-app advertising,
1:16:21and live activities would mean users
1:16:22would have to open the app less frequently
1:16:25and therefore would see fewer ads.
1:16:27So I have some thoughts on this.
1:16:28-Yes. -I am genuinely surprised
1:16:30they have not embraced live activities already,
1:16:33because live activities are awesome.
1:16:35I don't think it would change
1:16:38how often people are actually opening the app,
1:16:40because Uber has always been very, like, forward
1:16:44in the notifications that they send you.
1:16:46the push notifications send you about all the information you need, right?
1:16:49Like when the car's coming, they're not like, "Hey, open the app to find out the info,"
1:16:53right?
1:16:54Like they actually say, "Your car's nearly here.
1:16:56Here's the license plate."
1:16:58Once you've ordered the ride, you don't need to be going back into the app to check stuff
1:17:03if you don't want to.
1:17:04So I think live activities would still do the same amount.
1:17:07You still have to open the app to request the ride.
1:17:09So if you want to see the ads, you can get that that way.
1:17:12And honestly, we've seen it.
1:17:13Uber don't care about sending push notifications for ads.
1:17:16They are sending currently push notifications for ads
1:17:19that aren't even their company.
1:17:20Like there's like Peloton ads inside of the Uber app
1:17:24that are being sent by push notification.
1:17:25Like they'll advertise to you as part of the live activity,
1:17:29I'm sure, right?
1:17:30Like, and then it's on your screen.
1:17:31They can show you things like,
1:17:33hey, while you're waiting, do you want to get some food?
1:17:35Like, I don't think that they would,
1:17:38I don't think this is the reason
1:17:39they haven't done live activities.
1:17:41And I want more companies to embrace it.
1:17:43like the food company that we have here, Deliveroo,
1:17:46I could like to see them do it,
1:17:48because the apps that have done it, it's so good.
1:17:50And so I hope that they will.
1:17:52- Again, I'm gonna be,
1:17:53sorry to bring everybody down with reality,
1:17:55but like, I don't think it's a conspiracy here.
1:17:58I think that a lot of companies
1:18:00do their iOS development cycles
1:18:01based on the new OS being announced in June
1:18:03and shipping in September.
1:18:05And they put effort into doing their version updates
1:18:09and doing a lot of work.
1:18:10And they have a whole plan
1:18:11that they're gonna come out in the fall
1:18:12with their new version.
1:18:13And then one week from that new version of the OS shipping,
1:18:18Apple announces an entirely new API for this.
1:18:23And I mean, for the dynamic island anyway,
1:18:27Live Activities was there before,
1:18:28but like it has been, or was it there?
1:18:31Or were they saying it was coming later?
1:18:32It was always a coming later, right?
1:18:34- Live Activities was a thing that was coming,
1:18:36but the actual API didn't become available
1:18:39until the iPhone event, I think.
1:18:40because of the dynamic island being a part of it.
1:18:43So that's what I'd say is let's not jump to conclusions
1:18:47about why more apps are not supporting
1:18:50live activities right now.
1:18:51I think the real answer is the API didn't get released
1:18:55until September.
1:18:56And on top of that, a lot of companies that build apps
1:18:59sort of had a rhythm for their app development
1:19:02that this didn't fit.
1:19:04So give them time.
1:19:06It's probably gonna take some time.
1:19:10I would say, let's check back in June
1:19:13and see how many apps have live activities.
1:19:15- If you would like to send in a question
1:19:17for us to answer on the show,
1:19:18just send out a tweet with the #AskUpgrade
1:19:21or you can use ?AskUpgrade in the Relay FM members discord.
1:19:26I'd like to thank our sponsors for this week's episode,
1:19:28StoryWorth and Squarespace.
1:19:30And thank you if you sign up to support the show
1:19:32at getupgradeplus.com.
1:19:34If you want to find Jason online, you can go to sixcolors.com
1:19:37and he is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.
1:19:40I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.
1:19:43And you can find this show and many others
1:19:45over at relay.fm/shows.
1:19:47You can find a new podcast to add to your queue
1:19:50if that's what you're looking for.
1:19:52Don't forget as well, go to upgradees.vote
1:19:54and you can put in your nominations
1:19:56for the ninth annual upgradees
1:19:58coming your way sometime in December.
1:20:02Thanks so much for listening
1:20:03to this week's episode of Upgrade
1:20:05and we'll be back next time.
1:20:07Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.
1:20:09Goodbye, Myke Hurley.
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1:20:14[ Music ]