433: The Lava Lamp is Not Responding


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00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:03   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 433.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace

00:00:15   and StoryWorth.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:18   Hi, Jason.

00:00:20   - Hi, Myke.

00:00:20   How have we been doing this for 433 episodes?

00:00:23   How is that possible?

00:00:23   - Just one episode at a time.

00:00:26   - Yeah, that's all you can do.

00:00:27   I mean, unless you need to record extra.

00:00:29   Anyway, yes, in one episode at a time, yeah, exactly.

00:00:31   - I mean, I think you always do one episode at a time,

00:00:34   right, even if you're doing extras,

00:00:35   it's always one episode.

00:00:36   - That's true, you do one and then you do the next.

00:00:40   You can't take it more than,

00:00:42   if you try to record two podcasts at once,

00:00:43   I don't advise it, I think it would be a disaster.

00:00:45   - Yeah, bad idea.

00:00:47   I have a #snowtalk question for you,

00:00:49   comes from Rick and Rick wants to know,

00:00:50   well, Rick starts by saying,

00:00:52   Jason, I loved the T-Robot episode

00:00:54   of the Thoroughly Considered podcast.

00:00:56   I also finished it since we last spoke,

00:00:57   It was a very good episode.

00:00:59   Rick wants to know, do you partake in and enjoy iced tea?

00:01:04   - Oh boy.

00:01:05   Sure, iced tea is fine.

00:01:07   If I have leftover tea in the teapot,

00:01:10   let's say I make tea for upgrade

00:01:12   'cause I want my voice to be clear

00:01:15   and not having my throat being cleared every five minutes.

00:01:18   - And the caffeine.

00:01:19   Caffeine delivery is important, you know?

00:01:21   - Caffeine delivery to make me talkative

00:01:23   and also to get the phlegm out of my throat.

00:01:26   but I might have some leftover.

00:01:28   What might I do with something like that?

00:01:30   What might I do?

00:01:31   The answer is yes, I might actually drink it as iced tea.

00:01:35   And in the summer, sure, we've got to be,

00:01:36   you know, I've got a little iced tea.

00:01:38   I actually have an iced tea maker,

00:01:40   which is not as high tech or nice.

00:01:44   It's a big plastic contraption that you stick.

00:01:46   You put water in the plastic contraption

00:01:49   and ice in the bucket in the pitcher,

00:01:52   and you press a button and it basically just boils the water

00:01:55   and runs it through a little steeping basket.

00:01:58   I hadn't really thought of it,

00:01:59   but it is basically a sort of low-end tea robot for iced tea.

00:02:04   We do have that.

00:02:05   And so, yeah, I'll do that too.

00:02:08   That's fine.

00:02:10   Sometimes with lemon, sometimes not.

00:02:11   - Sugar, is it sweet?

00:02:14   - Yeah. - Yeah?

00:02:15   - Yep. - There is something

00:02:17   truly special about like really sweet iced tea.

00:02:22   I mean, for me, it's Memphis,

00:02:23   where I've enjoyed this the most.

00:02:25   - It's Memphis, sure, 'cause they make it that way.

00:02:28   Most, outside of the South in the US,

00:02:31   generally you need to supply your own sugar, which I do.

00:02:34   And it's never as good, right?

00:02:35   'Cause you gotta get, you get the granulated sugar

00:02:37   and it has to dissolve and it's never as good.

00:02:39   But in the South, they just use the simple syrup.

00:02:43   So they just pour it in, it's instantly dissolved

00:02:46   and it's the sweet thing.

00:02:47   It's great, it's amazing.

00:02:48   I've said this on many occasions, I'll say it again.

00:02:51   If I lived in the South, I'd be dead by now because of all the barbecue and the sweet tea.

00:02:57   It's absolutely true. I would be gone.

00:02:59   You'd be dead happy though.

00:03:00   I would because barbecue is my favorite food and sweet tea is an amazing drink.

00:03:05   Yeah, I don't recommend it.

00:03:09   If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question for us to open an episode of the show,

00:03:14   just send a tweet with the hashtag #SnailTalk or use question mark

00:03:17   Snail Talk in the Relay FM members discord.

00:03:20   I have a couple of items of follow up. I was complaining, questioning how good

00:03:27   Siri commands were to get lights to turn on and off when you're in a room.

00:03:32   Eric wrote in to say that if you add "in here" to the Siri request to turn on or off the lights,

00:03:40   it does a remarkable job of knowing where you are and acting accordingly.

00:03:44   Because I was not convinced that it knew which room I was in.

00:03:48   Eric suggests to try this.

00:03:50   Alright.

00:03:51   Uh, should I try it?

00:03:53   Yes.

00:03:54   Turn off the lights in here.

00:03:56   Okay. Which room?

00:04:02   Living room. Jamie?

00:04:03   Outside. Garage.

00:04:05   Sorry, Eric. That didn't work as well as you wanted.

00:04:09   Okay. The lights are off. The lava lamp is not responding.

00:04:11   Okay.

00:04:12   Check the home app for more details.

00:04:13   Oh no.

00:04:14   Well.

00:04:15   - After I told it what room I'm actually in,

00:04:18   which it doesn't know 'cause it was my watch,

00:04:19   it was not on a HomePod.

00:04:21   It did actually turn off the lights in here.

00:04:24   So I'll give it that.

00:04:25   - I think the key is the HomePod part.

00:04:28   - A lavalier.

00:04:29   - Right, like it's a device that has some kind of idea

00:04:32   of where it is.

00:04:33   I think that's probably the key part.

00:04:35   - I think that's it.

00:04:35   So maybe it does work.

00:04:37   It just doesn't work with the watch.

00:04:39   But if I had my smart assistant on a HomePod in here,

00:04:44   - Yeah, okay, that's a good tip, Eric, thank you.

00:04:46   - What I wanna know though, Jason,

00:04:48   is what's happened to the lava lamp?

00:04:50   - Well, you know, funny story,

00:04:53   I woke up on Sunday morning and our wifi was down.

00:04:58   - Ah, okay.

00:04:59   - And so, and this is like, I was, and funny,

00:05:01   I was just listening to the ATP episode

00:05:03   where they talked about Lutron Caseta switches

00:05:05   and how the great thing is that it's on its own network.

00:05:07   And so, you know, wifi is the thing that makes home

00:05:10   networking and home smart home devices not reliable.

00:05:15   And I got to get that firsthand

00:05:17   because what happened is I have a UPS,

00:05:20   an uninterruptible power system on for my router

00:05:25   and my wifi so that if the power goes out,

00:05:29   the router and the wifi stay on.

00:05:31   And this is my oldest, I think, UPS that I have

00:05:34   and it's battery died.

00:05:36   And the UPS's decision when the battery dies

00:05:38   is to take all the devices that are on the plugs that are backed up by the battery and

00:05:44   turn them off. And so at three in the morning, my Wi-Fi and my fiber router were just unceremoniously

00:05:52   shut down. And so I had in my pajamas, I was like, "What is going on?" I diagnosed it,

00:05:58   I got out, I pulled out the UPS, I put in a power strip, I plugged it all back in. But

00:06:04   I'll tell you, some devices, some wifi-based smart home devices do not like it when there

00:06:14   is a power cycle like that. And so I have been, and the lava lamp will be next, the

00:06:22   lights outside in the backyard didn't come on last night. And I'm like, "I know what

00:06:27   this is." And literally all I did was I unplugged them and, because it's a smart outlet, unplugged

00:06:31   and replugged the smart switch out there. And then they worked. Like I had to reboot

00:06:38   Homebridge because it was confused and the undoubtedly the smart switch that the lava

00:06:42   lamp is plugged into just needs to be unplugged and replugged at which point it will get back

00:06:47   on the network if it's back up and it's been back up for ages now but they just get really

00:06:50   confused and this is what we talk about when we say that relying on a Wi-Fi network for

00:06:56   your smart home devices is a problem because sometimes the Wi-Fi network gets kind of out

00:07:01   a whack and the devices get out of whack and then you know you you have to power cycle

00:07:07   everything in order to get it back together as opposed to something like the Lutron Quesada

00:07:13   stuff which is working fine because it's got its own radio network and they talk to themselves

00:07:19   and they are connected to the rest of the house but they don't rely on the Wi-Fi to

00:07:24   stay up and running. I wonder if some of these devices like with that kind of tying off the

00:07:30   the power like that almost treat it like a reset.

00:07:32   Like it may trigger like a, you know,

00:07:35   like they think that you've purposely reset the device

00:07:38   or something.

00:07:39   - I think what's happening is that the smart home devices

00:07:41   that are on Wi-Fi are dumb and they lose the network

00:07:44   and they go, "Oh no!"

00:07:46   And then they never, and they, until you reboot them,

00:07:50   they don't know how to reconnect to the Wi-Fi network

00:07:54   that went down.

00:07:55   That seems to be what's going on here.

00:07:57   Like, "Oh no, I don't know what to do."

00:08:00   well, you know, this happens on networks all the time.

00:08:02   You should know what to do, but they don't.

00:08:05   And so then you power cycle them and then they come on,

00:08:07   they go, "Oh, where's my wifi network?"

00:08:08   There it is.

00:08:09   It's been there all along, stupid thing,

00:08:10   but the bad ones are like that.

00:08:14   I think there are good ones that aren't like that,

00:08:16   but the bad ones are like that.

00:08:17   - Yeah, I can definitely empathize

00:08:20   because I haven't had internet for like seven days.

00:08:23   We had internet, now the internet's gone away

00:08:25   at the new place, so there's no internet anymore.

00:08:28   and it's kind of made the home network a bit of a disaster,

00:08:33   including all of our smart stuff.

00:08:36   - So you had it and then you lost it.

00:08:38   - We were using the previous owner's internet

00:08:41   because we wanted to sign up, but they weren't canceling.

00:08:44   So I just decided to set up my network.

00:08:48   - Then they canceled it.

00:08:49   - And now we're waiting to get re-set up again.

00:08:51   - Installed.

00:08:52   - Yeah, which hopefully will be tomorrow.

00:08:54   But you know, when it comes to internet service providers,

00:08:57   I never actually believe anything that they say

00:08:59   until it's done.

00:09:00   So we'll see what happens there.

00:09:02   But we're having an issue now where like,

00:09:05   we need to like be off wifi

00:09:09   to have a connection to the internet.

00:09:12   But then we need to turn on wifi on our devices

00:09:15   so we can turn off the lights.

00:09:16   (laughs)

00:09:18   Just some follow up here.

00:09:21   Turn on the lava lamp.

00:09:23   Oh, come on.

00:09:24   Oh, nearly.

00:09:25   Turn on the lava lamp.

00:09:26   You got it? Coming right up.

00:09:28   - Okay.

00:09:29   - Ladies and gentlemen, the lava lamp is on

00:09:30   and all I had to do was take a smart outlet,

00:09:33   unplug it and plug it back in.

00:09:35   - Perfect. - That's it.

00:09:36   - That's what it takes.

00:09:37   - That's it.

00:09:38   Not so smart, is it?

00:09:39   - You need to put the smart outlet on a smart outlet

00:09:41   so you can turn off the smart outlet for the smart.

00:09:43   - Oh, that's a, hmm, hmm.

00:09:46   - Then you'll be good to go.

00:09:47   - Yeah, it's just, it's dumb.

00:09:50   - Speaking of which, Jason, I saw an article today,

00:09:53   I think you might be excited about this.

00:09:55   Phillips Hue Christmas lights.

00:09:58   - Ah. - Like string lights.

00:10:00   This is a new product.

00:10:03   It's available today.

00:10:05   I actually bought some.

00:10:07   I think this is a great idea.

00:10:08   It's 250 mini smart LEDs on a 20 meter cord,

00:10:12   which can be used on a Christmas tree,

00:10:13   stairway, mantle, or more, says MacRumors.

00:10:16   - Hmm, interesting. - It's a fun little product.

00:10:19   - That is what I was talking about.

00:10:22   the idea of having some smart controllable LED.

00:10:25   I'm sure there are lots of cheap ones out there

00:10:27   that are not hue based.

00:10:29   - And these aren't cheap, it's $160.

00:10:31   But I've had nothing but good things to say

00:10:34   about the hue line of products.

00:10:37   So I think this might be a fun little thing.

00:10:40   Plus I would say my wife Idina just loves

00:10:43   these kinds of lights.

00:10:44   Like we've always had like what we call fairy lights.

00:10:47   - Fairy lights.

00:10:48   - Somewhere in the home.

00:10:50   So these won't just be used at Christmas for us, I think.

00:10:54   But over the Christmas period,

00:10:55   we can put them around the tree.

00:10:57   So I think that'd be nice and cute.

00:10:58   - Festavia.

00:11:00   - Festavia, Festavia.

00:11:02   - Festavia.

00:11:03   - I don't like the name of that, but.

00:11:05   - I was thinking it would be Festiva, but it's Festavia.

00:11:08   - Festavia.

00:11:09   - That's the Dutch for you.

00:11:11   Germanifying everything like that, Festavia.

00:11:15   Yeah, it's Festavia.

00:11:18   - Indeed, speaking about the festive season.

00:11:20   Festive season means an important thing around here.

00:11:25   It is time to vote for the ninth annual Upgradies Awards.

00:11:29   - Yes.

00:11:30   - You can go to Upgradies.vote

00:11:32   and you can put your votes in now

00:11:35   for the ninth annual Upgradies.

00:11:39   Voting is open. - Are they votes,

00:11:39   the nominations?

00:11:41   - Yeah, nominations, votes, nominations, votes,

00:11:43   something like that.

00:11:45   you know what we're saying, is now time.

00:11:48   So the nominations are open,

00:11:50   you can go and fill out the Google form.

00:11:52   Voting is open from now until December 12th.

00:11:56   So you have about a month.

00:11:59   As a programming note,

00:12:01   we have condensed some categories this year.

00:12:04   So we previously had an iOS game of the year

00:12:07   and a game of the year.

00:12:09   We now just have game of the year,

00:12:11   so we're bringing that together.

00:12:12   And previously we had three podcast categories.

00:12:17   We had best tech podcast, best non-tech podcast,

00:12:21   and best podcast newcomer.

00:12:23   We now condense this to just best podcast,

00:12:26   which is one podcast category now.

00:12:29   But as a note,

00:12:30   we had had some previous Lifetime Achievement Award winners,

00:12:33   the Accidental Tech Podcast and the Flop House.

00:12:36   So they are going to continue.

00:12:38   They are not eligible for winning.

00:12:40   So it is not worth making that nomination

00:12:43   because it won't be counted.

00:12:45   So they're gonna continue being

00:12:46   Lifetime Achievement Award winners.

00:12:48   We encourage you to recommend

00:12:50   maybe your second favorite podcast,

00:12:52   if either of those is your favorite.

00:12:54   So we're going to now just do

00:12:56   the one overall podcast of the year category.

00:13:00   This is partly to bring it in line

00:13:03   with the other categories in this kind of block.

00:13:06   So we do of the year,

00:13:09   We can just choose, right?

00:13:12   You just choose your favorite and we're just going to go with it.

00:13:16   You can find previous winners at Upgradies.com, which the wonderful Zach maintains for us,

00:13:23   and the changes to these categories will be reflected at some point in the not too distant

00:13:28   future on the website.

00:13:31   We're getting ready.

00:13:32   I think we're going to be probably, I'm expecting, we haven't set this, but I'm expecting December

00:13:37   19th is when the upgradees will occur,

00:13:42   because December 26th will be the holiday special, I expect,

00:13:45   is what we'll be doing.

00:13:47   - Oh, really?

00:13:48   I thought it would be the other way around, right?

00:13:50   - It's either gonna be December 19th or December 26th.

00:13:54   Me and Jason have not had this conversation yet,

00:13:57   but you have a month to do the voting,

00:13:59   and it'll be one of those last two episodes of the year.

00:14:02   - What if it's January 2nd?

00:14:04   - Yeah, I don't want that.

00:14:06   - Okay.

00:14:07   to do in December. But we'll see. We have some scheduling to do as well, right? There's

00:14:11   a lot of holidays happening there, as there always are. That's why I wanted to get the

00:14:16   voting going now. Yep, that's a good idea. So we had enough time, and so then I'll have

00:14:21   enough time, depending on whenever we do it, to get the tabulation complete, because a

00:14:28   lot of work goes into that. I wanted to put a request out to Upgradients. Ooh. So I'm

00:14:37   So in the house move, I'm kind of redoing all of my home

00:14:43   automation stuff.

00:14:45   And I've decided to kind of do what

00:14:48   I can to focus on going all in on HomeKit this time around.

00:14:55   Where previously, I'd kind of dabbled with HomeKit

00:14:58   and Amazon Echo, that kind of stuff.

00:15:01   But my goal is that all of the smart devices that I buy

00:15:06   will be able to tie into HomeKit.

00:15:08   And then if I can tie them into other things with Matter

00:15:10   or integrations, great.

00:15:12   But HomeKit is the goal.

00:15:15   It's just the system that I like the most.

00:15:17   And then if I have all of these devices in HomeKit,

00:15:19   then I can automate them to do interesting things together.

00:15:22   So I would like, if Upgradients have recommendations,

00:15:27   you can send them to me in the follow-up channel in Discord,

00:15:31   or send them to me on Twitter or whatever.

00:15:34   I would love to know products that you like.

00:15:39   I will say not Acara products.

00:15:42   I'll get to that in a second.

00:15:44   Or if you have YouTubers that you enjoy,

00:15:47   blogs, influencers in home automation,

00:15:50   focusing around HomeKit, I would love some recommendations

00:15:53   for people.

00:15:54   The reason I mentioned Acara, so I got an Acara hub

00:15:58   so I could use some of the leak sensors

00:16:00   that David Sparks recommended.

00:16:04   But I also have a HomeKit alarm system

00:16:07   by a company called Abode.

00:16:09   So this is like a, it's like a four alarm system,

00:16:13   kind of like a ring or something like that,

00:16:14   but it's all tied natively into HomeKit.

00:16:18   The problem with Acara is their hub works.

00:16:22   It tries to, it tells HomeKit it's an alarm system,

00:16:26   even if you don't use it for alarm system stuff.

00:16:29   So then I have two alarm systems in one HomeKit,

00:16:32   which causes tons of problems, I have learned,

00:16:36   because then you kind of have to set both for the,

00:16:38   it's like a whole nightmare.

00:16:39   So, Akara's, I don't think is gonna work for me

00:16:42   unless they have a hub that does not tell HomeKit

00:16:45   that it's an alarm, which is odd to me

00:16:48   that it's hub does that.

00:16:49   'Cause you can set Akara's stuff up,

00:16:51   like you can buy all of Akara's sensors

00:16:54   and turn it into an alarm system, right?

00:16:56   Like, that's kind of what they're doing,

00:16:59   but it's odd to me that it will only let you do that or not.

00:17:03   And so if you have some kind of HomeKit alarm system,

00:17:06   and so part of the issue I'm having is,

00:17:08   you know you have these categories at the top now

00:17:11   of HomeKit, right?

00:17:12   So you've got lights and stuff like that,

00:17:14   where it tries to, you can tap them,

00:17:16   it takes you to each thing.

00:17:17   If I set my HomeKit alarm system, but not the Acara,

00:17:22   because I'm only using it for leak sensors,

00:17:24   it tells me that my alarm system is disabled

00:17:27   even when it isn't.

00:17:28   And so like at first glance, that's not helpful to me.

00:17:31   So I then would have to set both of them

00:17:34   and that's just a nightmare and I don't want to do that.

00:17:37   So anyway, I found LeakSenses

00:17:38   that actually just tied directly into HomeKit.

00:17:41   I'm gonna try those out as well.

00:17:42   But so if you're gonna tell me about Okara stuff,

00:17:46   I kind of can't use it unless you can also tell me

00:17:48   that they have a product where it doesn't do this.

00:17:50   My Googling has not helped me to try and find something

00:17:53   that doesn't do this.

00:17:54   So yeah.

00:17:57   I would love recommendations though if you enjoy stuff in the homekit world.

00:18:04   Yes I have checked out many episodes of automators and Mac power users so I assume I've got that,

00:18:11   but I would like from listeners too if they have any recommendations.

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00:20:11   up justice now? Yeah let's do it. All right so I've got a couple of things for you. Digitimes

00:20:16   is reporting that the production of Apple's Mixed Reality headset is set to begin in March of 2023.

00:20:22   Looking at high prices, low quantities, currently expecting around 700,000 to 800,000 shipments a

00:20:30   year. Despite low profitability on production of the initial headset, Apple's manufacturing

00:20:41   partners are said to be willing to work with Apple on the project to prove their technical

00:20:45   capabilities so they will be well positioned for future AR/VR products. What do you think

00:20:51   about this?

00:20:53   This product is so strange, right? It is, again, like, low quantities. So are they setting

00:21:02   the bar low here? Are they going to be like, well, this is really a first crack at it.

00:21:05   I think it's funny because I've always said Apple always wants to sell millions of anything

00:21:10   it makes. And here we are talking about low quantities under a million. I mean, it makes

00:21:18   me feel more and more that this is more of a tech demonstration and a developer product

00:21:22   than it is a, and maybe they'll, they'll, you know, sell it into some industries or

00:21:26   something, but like that it's not a consumer product. They don't expect it to be a consumer

00:21:31   product and they're perhaps even knowing what the price is. They want to, it's interesting

00:21:36   that they want to ship it and call it a product, but also that they may set expectations pretty

00:21:42   low for it. I think it's interesting because the other choice would be if you only think

00:21:47   you're going to be able to make less than a million of them, don't ship them. But I

00:21:51   guess that's what the story is going to be. And when DigiTimes says they will produce

00:21:58   it starting in March of 23, it does really make me wonder about the timeline of when

00:22:03   this is gonna be announced and when it's gonna ship.

00:22:05   'Cause you and I have said for a while

00:22:07   that it will probably have its own event.

00:22:09   And I think that's probably right.

00:22:12   But I do wonder at what point the message becomes

00:22:16   very rapidly about it being a developer environment

00:22:20   for a future Apple platform as well.

00:22:22   And that it becomes more of a developer story.

00:22:25   And you're getting, you know,

00:22:27   if you're starting to produce them in March,

00:22:28   you're getting perilously close to just announcing it

00:22:31   WWDC. So I've had a new thought based on this, like just reading these rumors. I

00:22:37   could imagine now like an early 2023 announcement, they start the production

00:22:43   and then there's a big developer focus on it in June at WWDC. It's a pre-announcement

00:22:48   explaining what they're doing and then it ships in June maybe along with a lot

00:22:53   of talk at WWDC about it. Maybe, I mean that's what, because this is, let's be

00:22:59   honest, like who's buying this thing? Who's buying this thing? It's not meant

00:23:02   for the masses, clearly, at the price that it is, and they know that because they're

00:23:06   apparently, according to this report, not even expecting to make a lot of them

00:23:11   and ship a lot of them. So what's the purpose here? And I think the purpose

00:23:16   really is that Apple thinks this is a platform for the future, and so it wants

00:23:21   to get developer support behind it. And that's why I keep thinking

00:23:27   it's kind of a developer piece of developer hardware slash maybe some targeted industry slash

00:23:35   obviously people who just want the cool new thing and that's what this product is and it's not

00:23:41   it's not the one for the masses it's it's a couple generations away from being the one for the masses

00:23:48   um, I wonder if the, uh, reception to the MetaQuest Pro, which has been bad, I think,

00:23:55   uh, that people are like, "It's not really that great, uh, and it's so expensive," and I feel like

00:24:02   it's, maybe this is just me because I have a Quest 2, but it feels a little bit like the shine on that

00:24:09   old product remains, where they're like, "But this thing is fine, and it's way cheaper, and this thing

00:24:14   is so expensive and it's not that much better. I wonder if people who are working on this

00:24:18   inside Apple are also looking at that and saying, "Yeah, we're gonna need to do a cheaper

00:24:24   version of this real fast if we want people to use our platform." Because if you're a

00:24:28   developer, it's great that maybe Apple's saying, "The future is we're gonna do mixed reality

00:24:33   and AR and VR and here's our first one and we want you to develop for it." But part of

00:24:37   the developer's story is, "Who's gonna buy the work that I'm doing? Who's gonna buy the

00:24:42   software I'm building because developers aren't just making a living selling developer apps

00:24:48   to other developers, right? Like, there needs to be an audience for it. Who is that? And

00:24:53   when are they going to arrive? And if I'm a developer, it's great if you give me a $2,000

00:24:57   headset or you sell me a $2,000 headset now with the idea that this is going to be the

00:25:02   ground floor of Apple's next great computing platform. Okay, Apple, all right, but what

00:25:08   What is my expectation that this is going to be a product for the masses?

00:25:12   And one way for Apple to do that would be to say, or at least to be plotting in the

00:25:19   background that the product that they're going to release in 2024, at least one of those

00:25:24   products is going to be a more affordable version.

00:25:26   And maybe they offer the high-end version as well as a more affordable version.

00:25:30   I don't know whether they're going to say, "Nope, it's $2,000 or nothing," or what.

00:25:36   like if I was a developer, if I'm James Thompson and I'm like, "Finally, my Apple VR calculator/DICE

00:25:42   app is going to happen," and you know, James loves this new technology stuff, but if it's

00:25:46   a $2,500 headset and he has no reasonable expectation that anybody is going to be a

00:25:52   regular person buying it in the millions until 2024, 2025, that's a tough calculation to

00:25:58   make beyond your pure enthusiasm for Apple's platforms. So I'm still pretty skeptical of

00:26:03   this and I'm only more skeptical of it since the Facebook product, the meta product, seems

00:26:10   to have sort of been rushed out in order to beat Apple to the punch and has come out with

00:26:15   a thud. That's not great, like that, because Apple's gonna be way more expensive.

00:26:19   It seems like meta's issue is the software rather than the hardware. I'm not saying you're

00:26:25   saying anything different, but like, the hardware is fine.

00:26:29   The hardware seems fine, but there's nothing appreciably…

00:26:32   What I was struck by in all the reviews is that it's really more a nice Quest 2.

00:26:42   I think a lot of the reviewers are like, "Okay, so?"

00:26:46   But for what?

00:26:47   Could you have done a nicer Quest 3 with color cameras and a little bit upgraded screen,

00:26:53   but it was under $1000 and would that have been a better product than this thing where

00:26:57   they seem to have spared no expense, right?

00:26:59   But you're right, it's not just that the hardware,

00:27:02   the hardware seems okay.

00:27:04   They made some questionable decisions.

00:27:05   I think there's debatable things

00:27:06   in the choices that they made.

00:27:08   But what really seems weird is that people try it

00:27:10   and they're like, okay, but is it that much better

00:27:13   than the other thing?

00:27:14   And the answer seems to be not really.

00:27:18   And I wonder if there's a lesson there for Apple that like,

00:27:22   oh yeah, you might like a $500 VR headset,

00:27:24   but wait till you see a $2,500 headset.

00:27:27   And the response is gonna be, no,

00:27:30   I don't see where that extra 2000 is in value, right?

00:27:32   Like I know that it's there in the hardware,

00:27:34   but it doesn't provide enough value

00:27:36   for anybody to care about it.

00:27:37   And I think bottom line is nobody,

00:27:39   there's no such thing as a million plus,

00:27:43   millions, millions new platform product

00:27:48   that's a VR headset for 2,500 bucks, right?

00:27:51   Like it's not, that's not gonna happen.

00:27:53   It has to come down.

00:27:55   So I don't know, I think it's a real challenge

00:27:57   if you're a developer and you've been thinking

00:27:59   about developing for this platform.

00:28:01   Apple does really need to make the case

00:28:02   that this is the future and that eventually

00:28:04   a lot of people are gonna buy them.

00:28:06   Otherwise, not even developers are gonna,

00:28:09   why develop apps on a platform that's so expensive

00:28:11   that only the developers developing apps can buy it, right?

00:28:13   There needs to be an act two there and what is that?

00:28:18   - Well, maybe it's this.

00:28:19   Mark Gorman is saying that Apple is looking

00:28:22   for software engineers to further their work

00:28:24   in creating VR environments and the ability to watch video in the headset.

00:28:29   Two quotes from job listings via Mark Herman's newsletter.

00:28:34   The most interesting job listing is one that specifically calls out the development of

00:28:38   a 3D mixed reality world, suggesting that Apple is working on a virtual environment

00:28:42   that is similar to the metaverse, so don't expect Apple to embrace that term, and build

00:28:48   tools and frameworks to enable connected experiences in a 3D mixed reality world.

00:28:54   Mark also references NextVR, which was that company that Apple bought a really long time

00:28:58   ago now, which they were like filming sports games and stuff like that. And Apple acquired

00:29:03   that company for, it seems like technology and deals and all that kind of stuff.

00:29:08   Sure. I mean, they're laying the groundwork here. I think I keep coming back to the question

00:29:13   of what's the product that people are going to buy and what's the reason they're going

00:29:16   to buy it. And, and the fact is nobody's made a breakthrough VR headset. The Quest 2 is

00:29:21   probably the one that has broken through the most and for a while their meta had cut the price and

00:29:28   I don't think that would be considered even a hit product but it is at least a viable product and I

00:29:36   know that there's some stuff like the HTC Vive and I mean there are a handful but this is not

00:29:42   a category that's lighting the world on fire so I appreciate that Apple seems really committed

00:29:47   to building this thing, that's great. And maybe they believe that really has to have all of this

00:29:53   stuff in order for it to be viable. But the hardware, there have been no reports, right,

00:29:59   that Apple is expected at any point in the near future to make something that is going to be

00:30:06   priced in a way that lots of people are going to want to buy it. And that's troubling to me.

00:30:12   Like as much as they put into it, because it takes both, the calculation is complex, right?

00:30:16   The calculation is not just like, what do you do with it?

00:30:20   But, and then what do I pay for it?

00:30:22   And Apple seems to be working really hard

00:30:24   on the what do you do with it and what can it do?

00:30:27   But the other part of it, like, it just isn't there yet.

00:30:33   And what surprises me is that Apple seems to be devoted

00:30:37   to releasing a product so early that it's not a product

00:30:41   that anybody should buy, who isn't working in VR

00:30:46   or software development.

00:30:47   And that doesn't feel like Apple to me,

00:30:50   but that may be where they are.

00:30:51   - So this actually, it goes back to, I think,

00:30:55   what you were saying about Meta a moment ago, right?

00:30:58   With the Quest Pro of like, are they getting it out

00:31:01   just so they can be Apple?

00:31:03   Are Apple going to release this product

00:31:07   because they think they have to right now?

00:31:09   And if they do, if that is what they're doing,

00:31:12   that is not the Apple that we have known in the past, right?

00:31:17   Where like typically there's this old adage of like,

00:31:20   Apple wait until they've got the thing

00:31:23   that's gonna leapfrog everyone else.

00:31:25   So you've got to hope that they've got that

00:31:26   because if they're doing this because they're like,

00:31:28   oh, well, you know, we've kind of got to get into this market

00:31:31   so we like can stake our claim.

00:31:33   That's not the right way around

00:31:35   that they normally do things.

00:31:37   - I think part of the motivation here

00:31:39   is that there is a competitor out there that views VR as all—at least has up to now,

00:31:47   we'll see because, you know, Meta has changed. They laid off a bunch of people, including

00:31:50   some people in VR development, and Mark Zuckerberg has gotten a lot of criticism for the amount

00:31:56   of money he's putting into it, but up to now Apple's—

00:31:58   He's still pressing on it though, even with those layoffs.

00:32:00   I know. And Apple is looking at a competitor that almost views VR as an existential crisis

00:32:06   for their company, that Meta's future is VR. And Apple looks at that and says, "Okay,

00:32:13   they have raised the stakes here. And if we don't get into this game now, even though

00:32:17   it's early, it's too early, if we don't get into this game now, we'll be too far behind."

00:32:23   And I'll point to the fact that Meta keeps buying. The Quest has been a successful enough

00:32:28   platform that it's allowed Meta to identify successes on VR platforms and buy them, right?

00:32:35   talked about this. They bought Supernatural, the exercise thing, uh, did they buy Beat

00:32:40   Saber?

00:32:41   Don't think that one went through. They bought Beat Saber.

00:32:42   Or they tried to buy Supernatural and there were questions about it. So this is like,

00:32:46   Meta really wants to control this, and if you're Apple, I could see strategically, you're

00:32:51   like, "We gotta get out there." Even if it's just a developer kit and it's not something

00:32:54   for the masses. What they risk, messaging-wise, is coming out with something nobody wants

00:32:59   and everybody's saying, "Oh, it's a flop," and never revisiting it, right? That's the,

00:33:04   That is the danger.

00:33:05   Because it's Apple, and everybody pays attention to Apple, I'm not sure Apple can sneak a product

00:33:10   by and say, "Well, it's not for you."

00:33:13   It's like if Apple tried to come out with the only Mac that they made was a Mac Pro.

00:33:17   Nobody's gonna use the Mac then, right?

00:33:19   It's just not gonna happen.

00:33:20   Maybe some people at the very high end will buy it, but that's not a viable platform.

00:33:24   Or if the only Apple Watch was the Apple Watch Ultra, right?

00:33:27   That wouldn't make any sense.

00:33:28   Yeah, but if they feel like they have to be out there, this is...

00:33:31   I'm gonna be really interested with how they talk about this

00:33:34   because one way you could see this product release is,

00:33:37   we believe in the future of VR.

00:33:39   And so we have decided to make the best VR headset ever made

00:33:44   and it's early in the growth of VR

00:33:47   and we expect that this will mostly be of interest

00:33:49   to industry and developers right now,

00:33:52   but in the future, this is gonna be a huge market

00:33:54   and so we're gonna get started now.

00:33:56   And if they talk about it in that way

00:33:58   and really try to set the bar, honestly, very low,

00:34:02   then maybe I can see it.

00:34:03   But I do think that they're being motivated

00:34:05   by the fact that there are big pocketed competitors

00:34:08   who feel like they have to do this to survive.

00:34:12   And Apple doesn't have to do this to survive necessarily,

00:34:15   but Apple doesn't wanna let this opportunity get away.

00:34:19   And so you end up having to raise the stakes yourself

00:34:21   to match them.

00:34:22   - And the reason we're here

00:34:23   and the reason we're having these conversations is

00:34:26   everyone's looking for the next platform, right?

00:34:28   Like that's, everyone's looking for it.

00:34:30   - Right, and Facebook didn't get a phone, right?

00:34:33   Facebook doesn't have a platform.

00:34:34   They tried and failed, and so now they want the next one.

00:34:37   - And this is the only one on the horizon.

00:34:40   Like, it might not be the next big platform.

00:34:43   - It might not.

00:34:44   - But there isn't another one, right?

00:34:47   There just isn't one.

00:34:48   - In fact, I would say, I said this about the car

00:34:51   like five years ago, and I'll say it about VR.

00:34:56   It's hard actually not to believe that at some point,

00:35:00   if we play the infinite timescale game,

00:35:03   it's hard not to believe that the miniaturization

00:35:06   of technology will not continue to the point

00:35:08   where the devices get smaller and smaller

00:35:11   and we have more subtle inputs on our bodies

00:35:14   and direct input into our senses via glasses or contacts

00:35:19   or whatever it is, or lasers and drones

00:35:21   that fire lasers in your eyes, I don't know.

00:35:24   - I don't know.

00:35:25   Like, but, I don't want it, but maybe it'll happen.

00:35:29   So it's hard if you put on your like, "I'm a futurist," that kind of hat.

00:35:37   It's got like a propeller on it, but it's a futuristic propeller.

00:35:40   And you say, "Long time scale."

00:35:44   I think it's hard to argue that integrating more directly with senses is not a strong

00:35:53   possibility as where the future of computing devices goes. I mean, not necessarily. I think

00:36:00   there's biological reasons why it won't be, right? It's hard to get into the eyes, because

00:36:05   you have to have something hanging in front of your face, and that is not easy. But in,

00:36:13   and so maybe people will reject it and prefer little screens and stuff that they can hold

00:36:16   and fold and unfurl and all of that. But I don't know, I think it's not a bad, what I'm

00:36:22   saying is I think it's not a bad bet to make if you're a tech company that has so much

00:36:26   money that you don't know what to do with it and you know that it's not going to be

00:36:30   like the iPhone Apple was able to kind of do on their own but now it's like everybody

00:36:35   knows this is the category and so you're either in or you're out and the stakes are really

00:36:39   high I don't know if it's let me put it this way for Apple I think it's a good bet because

00:36:45   they've got the money and they don't want to be left behind and and become irrelevant

00:36:49   - And they've got everything you need.

00:36:51   They've got the operating systems, they have apps,

00:36:53   they have app stores, they have the integrations

00:36:56   of other devices.

00:36:57   If they didn't do this, if they weren't doing this at all,

00:36:59   I'd be worried, right?

00:37:00   Like it makes sense for them to try.

00:37:02   - Yeah, Apple is a rich guy at a high stakes poker game.

00:37:05   Facebook feels like it's like a super sweaty guy

00:37:08   who is putting all of his money on this bet.

00:37:11   And if he doesn't win, he's bankrupt.

00:37:16   They are, but I am a lot less confident in their other businesses surviving into the

00:37:21   future as I am Apple's business surviving into the future.

00:37:26   I don't think you're wrong there at all, and I think that's why they're doing this anyway,

00:37:30   right? Like, I think Zuckerberg knows that he owns declining businesses. Like, they're

00:37:36   very powerful, but they're not going to continue going up.

00:37:40   Right. And if I'm Apple, it's more like this is a hedge against—this is the one technology

00:37:44   that could make the iPhone irrelevant.

00:37:46   So we need to put money into this as a hedge, right?

00:37:48   That's what it is.

00:37:50   But I don't think it's unrealistic in the long run.

00:37:53   But I'll also point out that people were talking about,

00:37:55   like Doug Engelbart designed the mouse in the what,

00:37:58   late 60s?

00:38:00   And so you're talking about 16 years-ish

00:38:05   before the Mac was the first kind of viable product

00:38:09   to popularize the mouse as a thing.

00:38:11   And I just keep being reminded of like,

00:38:14   And there was networking in the '60s and the '70s,

00:38:16   but it didn't really go anywhere until the '90s.

00:38:19   And personal computers started out in the '70s,

00:38:23   but weren't super commonplace,

00:38:26   like ubiquitous on everybody's desk in every office

00:38:30   until the '90s, right?

00:38:31   So you're talking a lot of times these things,

00:38:34   everybody knows that that's where it's going,

00:38:36   but it doesn't mean it goes there fast

00:38:38   because of all the technical reasons.

00:38:39   Even if we move faster with our tech now,

00:38:42   I think it's not unreasonable to look at this VR stuff

00:38:44   and say, it's important to be here,

00:38:47   but like is Apple gonna make the iPhone or iPod

00:38:50   or whatever of VR goggles in 2025,

00:38:54   in the mid 2020s, in the 2020s?

00:38:57   And I don't know if anyone is.

00:38:59   I mean, this could very well be everybody spending

00:39:02   a lot of money to be the last one standing

00:39:04   when they finally can get the technology

00:39:06   where it needs to be in 2030.

00:39:09   And that is not something that,

00:39:11   like it's gonna make the press coverage of the meantime

00:39:13   of all the money being spent on this pretty brutal,

00:39:16   but I'm not convinced that AR and VR isn't that far off.

00:39:20   - Well, I will say, because it's just kind of funny on time,

00:39:23   the original Oculus Kickstarter was in 2016 in January.

00:39:28   So it's been nearly seven years since that.

00:39:34   This is just, I think that was like a funny thing of like,

00:39:37   oh, it took 16 years.

00:39:38   well, we're about halfway from in that idea.

00:39:42   So another five or six years.

00:39:44   - Right.

00:39:45   - Yeah, I mean, it could happen.

00:39:46   - Right, but I'm just saying that I think

00:39:48   that there's some perspective here about like,

00:39:50   don't necessarily figure,

00:39:51   like it's hard to look at this stuff and say,

00:39:53   oh yeah, it's right on the verge of being popular.

00:39:55   And it's gonna go through a cycle

00:39:57   like personal computers did,

00:39:59   which I think not like smartphones did.

00:40:02   I think smartphones happened a lot faster

00:40:03   where people are like, oh, wait a second,

00:40:05   that my phone could, let's do that.

00:40:07   Like, that's gonna be my next phone.

00:40:09   But personal computers, it was very much like,

00:40:12   it's expensive, it's for hobbyists, it's for universities.

00:40:16   We're gonna try to expose kids to it in school

00:40:19   by having one, just one,

00:40:22   that kids will cluster around or take and turn, right?

00:40:26   Like, and then it was, okay,

00:40:28   some businesses are gonna have a few in a few places.

00:40:32   And then some people who've got enough money,

00:40:35   like media moguls are gonna buy power books

00:40:38   and that's gonna be a thing,

00:40:40   but that it really did take a long time

00:40:44   to get to the point where it's sort of like,

00:40:45   there's a computer on every desk

00:40:47   and everybody's got a laptop

00:40:48   and every house has a computer.

00:40:49   Like it took a long time for it to grow like that

00:40:54   because you had to get the prices down

00:40:57   and have the reason that you would do it up

00:41:00   to the point where you could get there.

00:41:02   And in some parts of the world that never got there

00:41:03   and the smartphone is what got it there.

00:41:05   So, VR feels a little bit like that to me.

00:41:08   I don't feel like we're on the verge

00:41:09   of a VR breakthrough here.

00:41:10   I think that this is all about

00:41:12   companies spending a lot of money

00:41:13   to shorten that time to a viable product.

00:41:16   But in the meantime, you have Apple coming out

00:41:18   with a $2,500 headset, and it's just, I don't know.

00:41:23   It could be a very cool product,

00:41:26   but how cool is it if nobody is gonna buy it, right?

00:41:30   That's not, part of what makes a product successful

00:41:33   is that people buy it, right?

00:41:35   It can't just be good.

00:41:36   Even if it's good, if nobody's gonna buy it,

00:41:39   it's a failure.

00:41:40   - Just as a clarification from the Discord,

00:41:45   the Kickstarter was in 2012.

00:41:48   The last update was in 2016,

00:41:50   took many years to ship. - There you go.

00:41:51   - But the idea of like, well, it's been 10 years now,

00:41:53   it's been 10 years since the Oculus Rift.

00:41:56   - 10 years since the Kickstarter, right?

00:41:59   - But that was since it was viable, right?

00:42:01   They were talking about the viability thing,

00:42:02   not release, right?

00:42:03   because you know, saying that the viable design

00:42:05   of the mouse was 16 years before the mouse was in wide use.

00:42:10   So it's just, it's fun.

00:42:11   - I wanted to mention one thing, which is,

00:42:13   I don't want to sound like I'm down on VR

00:42:15   because I think that VR has some uses.

00:42:16   I have said on here before, I have a Quest 2.

00:42:20   I like it, it's nice.

00:42:23   It's not great, right?

00:42:25   It's not like, oh my God, the resolution,

00:42:27   everything's kind of grainy and all that,

00:42:28   but it works really well, the head tracking works well.

00:42:31   I never feel kind of like motion sick in it.

00:42:34   I think it keeps up the illusion remarkably well.

00:42:37   And it was relatively cheap.

00:42:41   It was relatively affordable

00:42:42   as a kind of a under the Christmas tree present

00:42:46   a couple of years ago.

00:42:47   That is a reason to be optimistic, I think,

00:42:53   because it suggests that there are compromises you can make

00:42:57   to make a product that is more affordable.

00:43:00   and there are a lot of games on it that are fun.

00:43:02   I feel like they're figuring out with that product

00:43:06   sort of what is good on a VR headset.

00:43:09   And it's a standalone, which is really nice

00:43:11   as opposed to the PSVR that I had that was,

00:43:13   you had to tether it and there were a million cables.

00:43:15   There's a lot going for it,

00:43:16   even though it has not set the world on fire.

00:43:20   I think that I'm encouraged by the success

00:43:23   and quality of that product.

00:43:25   And it says to me that while Apple and Facebook

00:43:28   seem to be building the high-end headsets here in order to show the possibility of this.

00:43:33   There's room for more affordable headsets. And I hope that Apple dares to go there, right?

00:43:40   Because I think that that's going to be required. I think you're going to need to have the – Mark

00:43:46   Germin keeps talking about the Apple Reality Pro and Reality One as the name for these

00:43:51   products. I would say I think it would be good for Apple to have a Reality Pro and then

00:43:57   and follow it up with a Reality One, if you get my meaning.

00:44:02   And the Reality One would be a lot cheaper

00:44:05   than the Reality Pro.

00:44:06   I think they need to get there.

00:44:08   - And I'll just stay before we move on too.

00:44:10   I am, I think even more than you,

00:44:13   I am more optimistic about this as a platform

00:44:16   just in general in technology.

00:44:17   Like, I don't think that AR/VR

00:44:20   is necessarily the next smartphone,

00:44:24   but I think it's the next tablet, the next watch, right?

00:44:27   Like I think it is a market with a lot of potential.

00:44:32   - Right, another $20 million, $30 million a year

00:44:35   business for Apple in five or 10 years, yeah.

00:44:38   - And I am personally more into mixed reality and VR

00:44:43   than pure AR.

00:44:45   Like I worry a little bit about pure AR,

00:44:48   like constantly visually connected to a computer

00:44:52   that I don't like so much.

00:44:53   I like the intentionality of the bigger headsets,

00:44:56   but we'll see where it goes.

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00:47:05   So you mentioned earlier, like, where is the value gonna be in this headset, right?

00:47:12   Like if it's gonna be $2,000, $3,000.

00:47:16   So why don't we pick some things?

00:47:18   Why don't we spend Apple's money for them?

00:47:21   We're gonna invent some things that might be on the device.

00:47:25   I did send you a message over the weekend.

00:47:26   I said, "I got an idea.

00:47:27   Why don't we talk about what could be in this thing?

00:47:30   What could be in this thing?"

00:47:32   Could I start off with what I think is one of the reasons that they're making a lot

00:47:35   lot of decisions that they're making, very high resolution display inside of

00:47:40   the headset. I think this is the key factor here because you know one of the

00:47:47   things that people are saying about the Quest Pro is like so many things are

00:47:51   better about the hardware but the displays are still not high resolution

00:47:55   enough that you can still kind of see pixels. I mean we've seen lots of rumors

00:48:01   that suggest 8K displays, right? An 8K display for every eye.

00:48:05   Dual 8K displays.

00:48:08   And this could, if they're building around this,

00:48:11   it will make the experience better, you would hope,

00:48:13   and they have that foveated rendering thing,

00:48:15   which PlayStation is going to be doing,

00:48:19   and this is where it uses eye tracking to see where you're looking

00:48:23   and then just render what's in front of you,

00:48:25   which brings down some of the processing power required,

00:48:27   especially if you're going to have so many pixels.

00:48:29   This is, if they do this high resolution display stuff,

00:48:33   it's going to have a couple of knock-on effects.

00:48:35   One, it will be very expensive and difficult to produce.

00:48:38   Two, I mean, you can just throw battery out the window,

00:48:43   right, which suggests, I mean,

00:48:46   there have been rumors in the past about the idea

00:48:48   of this needing to potentially be tethered.

00:48:51   This is going back a long time.

00:48:52   - I haven't seen, it sounds to me like Apple has decided

00:48:55   that this has to all be on board,

00:48:57   that nobody wants to be connected to a cord.

00:48:59   We'll see.

00:49:00   But it could need to be tethered,

00:49:02   or it could need to be tethered to battery,

00:49:03   or it may just have a very short battery life

00:49:06   if it's gonna be driving these kinds of displays.

00:49:09   Could also make it heavy, right, with a larger battery.

00:49:12   So who knows, right?

00:49:13   But I think that going to those kinds of,

00:49:16   that kind of display technology

00:49:18   is going to have a lot of interesting knock-on effects,

00:49:21   but the hope would be, I guess from their side,

00:49:24   of like, if we go to this level,

00:49:26   we can show a higher quality experience,

00:49:29   and that's what will push them forward.

00:49:31   - Yeah, I mean, clearly.

00:49:33   So that brings up something that I wanted to mention,

00:49:35   which is content in terms of like video content.

00:49:40   - Yeah.

00:49:41   - And I know we mentioned this in passing

00:49:43   from that Mark Gurman report,

00:49:45   but I feel like this has been clear for a while.

00:49:47   First off, so many movies still get made in 3D

00:49:51   or converted to 3D,

00:49:53   and they often have IMAX versions

00:49:55   with stretched aspect ratios, they're very tall.

00:49:58   And I was thinking that if I'm Apple and I've got a streaming service and I've got a video store

00:50:05   that one of the things I'm gonna do for any headset that I produce is I'm going to get a

00:50:11   complete library of all 3d

00:50:13   movies and IMAX movies that are out there and have that available and

00:50:17   potentially even if you already bought it on iTunes you get it in this other form or maybe you have to buy it separately or

00:50:23   You can rent it or whatever. But and I know you're sitting there thinking

00:50:28   "Yeah, but who wants to watch a movie with a headset on?"

00:50:30   Like, I hear you, but I'll tell you

00:50:33   that even on the low resolution Oculus Quest,

00:50:36   I have watched some stuff in 3D.

00:50:38   - It's pretty good.

00:50:40   - It's pretty good.

00:50:41   It's pretty good.

00:50:42   It is, it's not something I will wanna do all day long,

00:50:45   but for the length of a movie or a TV show,

00:50:48   whether it was on an airplane or something,

00:50:51   or if I'm just sitting at home,

00:50:52   and I've got immersive, presumably, audio as well,

00:50:55   like, just as a virtual movie theater

00:50:57   that's showing you something that the equivalent

00:50:59   of like 4K quality and it's in 3D, it's kind of fun.

00:51:04   And in fact, I would say it's a way better experience

00:51:07   than sitting in a movie theater with cardboard 3D glasses

00:51:10   over your eyes because it's bright,

00:51:13   because it's not cutting, it's not a single projection

00:51:16   with two different fields in it,

00:51:17   it's two different eyepieces

00:51:19   with two different sets of frame in them.

00:51:22   And so it's for me a better experience than movie theater 3D

00:51:27   even at the reduced quality of the Quest 2.

00:51:29   So imagining a much higher resolution screen

00:51:32   on an Apple device,

00:51:33   I think that that could be really good content.

00:51:36   They would also presumably do,

00:51:38   start saying, no, we need to do 3D conversions

00:51:41   of all of our Apple TV+ content as well,

00:51:44   so that stuff's gonna be available,

00:51:45   or a lot of it is gonna be available in 3D,

00:51:47   so if you watch it this way, it's gonna blow you away.

00:51:49   And I think that Apple, as we've talked about here a lot,

00:51:52   Apple's interest in doing sports coverage

00:51:55   is definitely a place where not just the 3D aspect

00:51:58   that's fundamental to having a headset,

00:52:00   but also an immersive VR kind of idea

00:52:04   where you could choose to have,

00:52:06   like they offer their sports broadcast,

00:52:08   but they also offer a VR version

00:52:10   that perhaps puts you in a different spot

00:52:12   or lets you choose where you are in the stadium

00:52:14   and watch it as if you're watching it from a seat

00:52:17   with, you know, choose your audio.

00:52:19   There are lots of things they could experiment with.

00:52:21   Some of them are gonna be dumb

00:52:22   and some of them might be great,

00:52:24   But why not experiment with that,

00:52:25   especially if you're producing your own sports programming

00:52:29   as Apple sounds like they're going to be doing.

00:52:32   So I just, I wanted to throw that in there

00:52:34   as a thing that I think would help

00:52:36   any future Apple headset is just getting

00:52:39   some video content for it.

00:52:40   - I mean, they have the ability to create video content.

00:52:43   They could create specific video content, right?

00:52:46   Like, why not do a TV show that's shot in video?

00:52:50   They could do that if they wanted to,

00:52:52   like from a fixed position,

00:52:53   and you could look around you.

00:52:55   I don't know if it would be entertaining,

00:52:57   but you could do it.

00:52:58   By the way, I did a quick Google search.

00:53:00   So there was a report in the information.

00:53:02   This is what messed me up.

00:53:04   There were two options that Apple were looking at.

00:53:07   One was tethered with a base station

00:53:08   featuring a chip that went on to become the M1 Ultra,

00:53:12   and one was a standalone unit,

00:53:13   and it seems like they were going down the route

00:53:15   of the standalone unit.

00:53:17   - Yeah, with an M2, essentially.

00:53:19   - So that was what mixed me up.

00:53:21   It was in the works at some point,

00:53:23   but it seems like it's probably not what

00:53:25   they're gonna go with.

00:53:26   As talking about content,

00:53:28   I think an easy one for me, spatial audio, right?

00:53:31   - Yeah.

00:53:32   - They're building some speakers into the headset

00:53:34   and have some kind of spatial audio feature.

00:53:36   Seems like an obvious one.

00:53:38   Apple will say they've got spatial audio in everything,

00:53:40   right, it's in your laptop.

00:53:42   So there's no reason why they wouldn't want

00:53:43   to do it here too.

00:53:45   - And I would think AirPods integration as well.

00:53:47   So if you don't want to have the,

00:53:49   'cause I don't think it's gonna be the thing

00:53:50   where you put it on and then it has things

00:53:52   that you stick over your ears, right?

00:53:55   Instead what they'll do is, and the Quest does this,

00:53:57   it's got speakers in it that are right by your ears

00:53:59   that give you that kind of effect.

00:54:01   And if you want, you can put headphones on

00:54:04   and it's a much more immersive effect.

00:54:05   And so I imagine that that'll be the argument

00:54:07   as you put in some AirPods and they automatically pair

00:54:10   and now you get the kind of complete lockout experience

00:54:13   so people near you cannot hear the sounds

00:54:15   that you're hearing 'cause they're just,

00:54:17   it's almost like open backed headphones kind of thing.

00:54:19   it's like if you're not wearing headphones

00:54:20   and you're doing a VR thing,

00:54:21   other people around you can hear you

00:54:22   because they're literally speakers out into the air,

00:54:25   but you pop in some AirPods.

00:54:27   And yeah, in fact, I would argue spatial audio

00:54:30   probably was prioritized at Apple because of this project.

00:54:35   That's my feeling is that this is a,

00:54:38   this feels very much like it's something

00:54:39   that went part and parcel with the headset project

00:54:42   to do spatial placement of audio.

00:54:44   - Can I throw in another one real quick?

00:54:47   - Yeah, sure. - 'Cause I think

00:54:48   you had it too.

00:54:49   Not a draft.

00:54:50   You just mentioned the idea of like, well maybe they created it for VR, Memoji.

00:54:55   I think could have also been partly created as this idea of like, we need to create lifelike

00:55:00   avatars that are expressive and we want to have years of tracking faces and learning

00:55:08   how that can work to create these avatars.

00:55:11   This could be a big, big thing for them.

00:55:14   have been really made fun of for the way that their avatars look, right? This is going back

00:55:19   a while now. And if Apple can make Memoji work well and work well in an expressive way

00:55:27   inside of VR, that could be a really big deal for them.

00:55:31   Yeah, I agree. In fact, I will then ping-pong off of what you just said and talk about collaboration.

00:55:38   'cause I think that this is, so we saw with,

00:55:40   we've seen the latest round of OS updates

00:55:43   that Apple announced in June,

00:55:45   they've started to lean into this idea of cloud,

00:55:48   iCloud based basically collaboration.

00:55:50   And what's funny about it is that it's,

00:55:53   it's all on Apple's platforms or the web.

00:55:55   And yet, they wanna make it a thing.

00:55:59   And so I keep thinking about, okay,

00:56:01   so they've got like, they've got iCloud document

00:56:03   collaboration, they've got SharePlay, they've got Memoji,

00:56:07   they've got FaceTime, roll it all together, right?

00:56:11   And yes, it probably means things like,

00:56:14   oh, and isn't there a rumor about how they're gonna make it

00:56:17   so that you can just do Memojis with,

00:56:20   or is that, or can you already do that?

00:56:22   You can already do FaceTime with a Memoji

00:56:24   instead of you, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:26   - So we're already there.

00:56:27   I think it's Zoom announced

00:56:29   that you're gonna be able to do that on Zoom now.

00:56:30   You're gonna have like a virtual avatar instead of you.

00:56:33   So that's a thing.

00:56:35   So the idea of having a FaceTime conversation

00:56:37   where one person's holding a phone

00:56:39   and looking at the camera

00:56:40   and another person is emoji using a headset,

00:56:42   like that's fine.

00:56:44   Zoom has already done things like this,

00:56:47   but like Apple's got the whole,

00:56:48   all their photographic engine stuff

00:56:51   where they pull subjects out of the background,

00:56:55   which might be a more sophisticated version

00:56:57   of what Zoom does,

00:56:58   where they detect your background

00:57:00   and then they pull you out of it.

00:57:01   And Zoom even has a mode that's hilarious

00:57:03   where they like put you in a setting.

00:57:05   It's like everybody in the meeting is at a table,

00:57:07   even though it's just a cut out of their body of the video

00:57:10   without the background. - Teams does this too,

00:57:11   of like making it look like you're in an auditorium

00:57:13   or something. - Right.

00:57:14   So like, it's not hard to imagine

00:57:16   that Apple might use some of that

00:57:18   to try and create kind of collaboration environments

00:57:21   where people are placed in physical spaces in VR.

00:57:26   And some of them have emoji

00:57:28   and some of them might even be people's video images.

00:57:31   Like I can see them going down that route now.

00:57:33   Is that something people want?

00:57:35   - Yeah, this is Horizon Workrooms.

00:57:37   This is what Horizon Workrooms is.

00:57:39   - It is Horizon Workrooms,

00:57:41   is what Facebook or Meta has been trying to do.

00:57:45   But I could definitely see the idea of,

00:57:47   and SharePlay I mentioned,

00:57:49   because I talked about movies, right?

00:57:51   Well, one thing you could do with watching a movie,

00:57:54   I can totally imagine Apple doing this,

00:57:56   is you watch it with your friends in VR with SharePlay.

00:58:00   And if you've never done any of this,

00:58:04   the way I watch video on a Quest is in an app

00:58:08   that puts you in a movie theater with a screen.

00:58:11   And you can set how close to the screen you wanna be,

00:58:14   but they don't put the movie all the way,

00:58:16   'cause it's really bad.

00:58:17   That's like you're standing in front of the movie screen.

00:58:19   Nobody watches a movie that way.

00:58:21   They put you in a movie theater,

00:58:22   and you can actually, I mean,

00:58:23   you can have it be like you're on an asteroid or whatever,

00:58:26   but the one that I use is you're in a movie theater,

00:58:29   and there's seats, and you can choose

00:58:30   how dim you want the lights to be,

00:58:31   and then there's the big screen up there

00:58:32   and how close you wanna be.

00:58:34   And one of the ideas there is,

00:58:36   you could have your friends come

00:58:37   and watch the movie with you.

00:58:38   So imagine a scenario where it's like SharePlay,

00:58:41   but you're in a VR space, right?

00:58:43   But you're in a VR space

00:58:44   and your friends Memoji is sitting next to you

00:58:47   and you can talk during the movie

00:58:48   and nobody's gonna shush you except maybe your friends.

00:58:51   And you can hear them talk and you can also watch the movie

00:58:53   and it's an actual like sharing kind of experience.

00:58:56   So I feel like Apple's gonna try all that stuff.

00:58:59   again, when we say all the pieces,

00:59:01   they've got all these pieces,

00:59:02   it does feel like in addition to making these pieces

00:59:05   available for their existing platforms,

00:59:06   they've also been sort of building all the parts

00:59:10   to put into a VR product.

00:59:13   - Yeah, SharePlay.

00:59:15   That one I lied, as soon as you started saying it,

00:59:18   it was like, I felt like the scales were falling

00:59:20   from my eyes, like SharePlay makes so much sense.

00:59:24   - Yeah, I don't know if people like it or not,

00:59:25   but I feel like in some ways,

00:59:28   it might be nice to watch a movie or a TV show

00:59:30   with your friends in a virtual space

00:59:32   because it would be less lonely, right?

00:59:34   If it's just you with your headset on, it's just you.

00:59:36   It's very solitary.

00:59:38   And also that might actually be a less weird kind of like,

00:59:42   oh, we're doing a text. - Way less weird

00:59:43   than the way you do it now.

00:59:44   - Right, like it would just be,

00:59:46   we're sitting in a movie theater.

00:59:48   - With SharePlay, like if you want to do the video version,

00:59:50   like you've got to actually have you on video, right?

00:59:52   Which maybe you don't want to do,

00:59:53   but you would have the same,

00:59:55   a very similar experience of presence,

00:59:58   which is the thing that's really cool about VR,

01:00:00   even more so actually,

01:00:01   'cause you would turn to the left and look at your friend.

01:00:04   I actually think that would be a really cool thing to do

01:00:07   and would be a fun thing to experience.

01:00:09   This is very nebulous,

01:00:12   but one of the things that I expect from Apple

01:00:14   is some kind of smart way that you wear the headset.

01:00:18   I'm thinking of Apple Watch bands, right?

01:00:22   They really did a good job of how you put the watch on to your body.

01:00:29   And at the moment, every VR headset is a clunky experience in some way.

01:00:35   How you put it on, how you have to adjust it, all that kind of stuff.

01:00:39   I'm hoping that Apple have come up with some kind of better way of handling that experience.

01:00:49   Handling that part of it all.

01:00:52   So I don't know what that might be, but I just want them to make it more elegant.

01:00:57   It's not like Meta doesn't have industrial designers, because they absolutely do.

01:01:01   It does sound like there's been some criticism about the way that the design of the new product

01:01:07   is, and the Quest 2, you know, it shipped with a terrible headband, and then you could

01:01:12   buy one that was good.

01:01:14   The new one is better in that they weight it a bit better, like there's more battery

01:01:17   on the back and lighter on the front.

01:01:19   And it's got this like turning wheel thing,

01:01:22   which is better than the Velcro, but still not ideal.

01:01:24   - Yeah, well, the turning wheel is on the upgraded version

01:01:27   of the Quest 2 head strap that I bought.

01:01:30   Yeah, oh, it's so much better.

01:01:32   The turning wheel, it's to make it tighter or looser

01:01:35   around your head.

01:01:37   Yeah, it's a much better design.

01:01:39   So all that said, I think about Apple,

01:01:41   and I know Apple's had a bunch of turnover and all that,

01:01:43   but like you would like to think

01:01:45   that Apple's industrial design people

01:01:47   and would design a really nice headset

01:01:51   that would be as comfortable to wear as possible.

01:01:54   You would really expect that.

01:01:55   I expect them to raise the bar there.

01:01:58   I'll be disappointed if they don't

01:02:00   because I feel like having Apple

01:02:03   think about the human experience

01:02:06   of putting this on your face,

01:02:08   like I would really hope

01:02:09   that they have put in some good work there.

01:02:11   I don't know what that is either, right?

01:02:13   But like you mentioned Apple Watch bands,

01:02:14   that's a good example.

01:02:16   I've got two more and you've got one more.

01:02:18   I am going to say thinking of services,

01:02:23   immersive, fitness plus, workouts and integration.

01:02:27   One of the successes, I know, again,

01:02:30   if you've never done this, you're like,

01:02:31   exercising a VR headset sounds like bizarre.

01:02:35   One of the real successes of the Quest

01:02:38   has been the Supernatural Workout app and Beat Saber,

01:02:41   which is essentially a workout app game.

01:02:46   they are very successful and you work up a sweat.

01:02:48   I do that, I do Beat Saber and I also play table tennis

01:02:52   with 11 table tennis and you can work up a sweat

01:02:55   with both of those things, right?

01:02:57   So it's actually a thing, right?

01:02:59   Because the idea there is exercise might be boring

01:03:02   and you can make it more interesting

01:03:03   if you strap a thing to your face

01:03:05   and show you interesting things.

01:03:06   So, Fitness Plus could be workouts in the studio

01:03:09   that are more VR where you're actually sitting

01:03:12   among all the people on the bikes or whatever.

01:03:15   It could be moving through real spaces.

01:03:18   The idea that when you're doing a bike,

01:03:20   they have immersive bike workouts

01:03:22   where you actually are pedaling through an environment

01:03:24   and depending on how you're pedaling,

01:03:26   or walking on a, or running on a treadmill,

01:03:30   like you're moving through virtual spaces

01:03:31   so that it's more entertaining that way.

01:03:34   And if you imagine the burn bar idea that they have about,

01:03:37   like, are you in the back of the pack,

01:03:39   or the front of the pack and all that,

01:03:40   having a group of other participants, virtual participants,

01:03:44   'cause it's all presumably not live,

01:03:47   that you're moving through as a motivator

01:03:49   of like you're behind the Peloton

01:03:50   or you're ahead of the Peloton.

01:03:52   That would be interesting too.

01:03:54   And then I will throw in also as well,

01:03:56   you could even do it based on the video game concept

01:03:58   of the ghosts, right?

01:03:59   Where you could like do a run workout or a bike workout

01:04:03   and see your previous workouts as like milestones

01:04:07   of like this is, you're gonna be chasing your best workout

01:04:10   and make sure you get ahead of them.

01:04:11   There's a lot of potential there.

01:04:13   And I would imagine that there are people

01:04:14   who've thought a lot about this inside of Apple

01:04:16   for how you use fitness apps in general

01:04:20   and Fitness Plus in particular

01:04:22   as one of the ways to do,

01:04:25   you get people to wanna use a headset.

01:04:27   - And the last one that I wanted to mention,

01:04:30   this is in a conversation I had

01:04:32   with _DavidSmith a while ago.

01:04:35   Widgets, this isn't really a thing about,

01:04:38   like it could be inexpensive, but just the experience.

01:04:40   Like I could imagine one of the things

01:04:42   that they will want you to be doing here

01:04:44   is to sit and work with this thing.

01:04:47   Like, you're actually sitting at your desk and doing work,

01:04:50   and you've got, like, large displays in front of you

01:04:52   that are displayed because of, you know, whatever.

01:04:55   And I thought it would be kind of cool to use

01:04:59   some, like, AR kind of feature of being able to pin widgets.

01:05:05   Like, we see them on iOS, right,

01:05:07   like, in different parts of your room.

01:05:09   Like, I would imagine, like, you could select some widgets

01:05:11   and basically stick them on your wall,

01:05:13   and you could just turn your head and look at the widgets

01:05:16   and go back to what you were doing.

01:05:18   I thought that that kind of idea would be pretty cool

01:05:20   if they did something like that,

01:05:22   using that technology that they've been building

01:05:24   in another way, I think it'd be kind of fun.

01:05:27   - And I will close out with the reason

01:05:30   that I actually brought this topic up to you,

01:05:35   which is my moment in reading Mark Gurman say,

01:05:37   it'll probably have an M2 processor in it.

01:05:39   And I thought, I was thinking about Horizon Workrooms

01:05:42   and I was thinking, you know, I would not put it past Apple

01:05:46   to have this headset let you have a Mac on it.

01:05:50   And I mean like literally a Mac on it.

01:05:55   Like you could do screen sharing to another Mac of yours.

01:05:57   That's what Horizon Workrooms does

01:05:59   and with a higher resolution,

01:06:00   being able to see your screen.

01:06:02   But I was thinking, what if you could travel with this

01:06:06   and maybe a keyboard or a virtual keyboard,

01:06:08   depending on your input and virtual mouse

01:06:10   or whatever you want.

01:06:11   but like it's an M2, what if you could travel

01:06:15   and not bring your computer with you

01:06:16   because you could run macOS in a virtual space on it

01:06:20   and iOS apps as well on it

01:06:23   and create like a virtual work environment

01:06:25   that you could boot up that would be on the network

01:06:27   and run all your apps and back things up

01:06:30   and be a Mac essentially, but in a virtual space.

01:06:34   Like I don't, again, do you wanna work on it all day?

01:06:38   No, but I think that there might be something there

01:06:42   in terms of being able to run certain apps

01:06:44   or get some work done.

01:06:45   And if it is a corporate,

01:06:47   potentially a corporate and industry product as well,

01:06:52   having that as a capability.

01:06:54   But I just had that moment where I thought,

01:06:56   the hardware is gonna be able to run macOS if it wants to.

01:06:59   What if you virtualize macOS?

01:07:00   And so then you go on your trip somewhere

01:07:03   and you bring the headset.

01:07:04   And if you need to log into work, you can do that,

01:07:07   but you don't need to bring a laptop

01:07:08   with you at all, you just bring the headset.

01:07:10   It's a wacky idea and yet, they could do it.

01:07:12   - Or even if it's just a case of like using it as a screen,

01:07:16   but yes, it would be more fun to be able

01:07:18   to actually just virtualize macOS.

01:07:20   It's gonna be running a chip that could do it, so.

01:07:22   - And friend of the show, Zach, in the chat room says

01:07:24   there's no way that they would let them open a terminal

01:07:27   on a new product class from Apple.

01:07:29   But it's like, well, yeah, but what if it's a virtual Mac?

01:07:31   Right, like opening the terminal on the virtual Mac

01:07:34   or on a, like I can screen share to a Mac from my iPad

01:07:39   and open a terminal window there.

01:07:41   In a certain way, it would not be a big deal

01:07:45   because it would literally be like,

01:07:46   you can run a Mac inside this in the virtual world.

01:07:49   And it's an actual Mac that's running

01:07:52   inside a virtual machine inside this virtual world.

01:07:55   Like if somebody found that valuable, sure, why not do that?

01:07:59   And why not have a virtual like iPad or iPhone too,

01:08:03   if you really wanted to, but it just,

01:08:04   it was that moment where I thought, okay,

01:08:06   Horizon Workrooms has the thing

01:08:07   where you install software on your laptop

01:08:09   and then your laptop appears in the virtual world

01:08:11   and it's very low resolution,

01:08:12   but you can sit there typing into your laptop

01:08:14   and see the results on the screen.

01:08:15   I thought, okay, okay, but what if you could just run it?

01:08:20   Just have a Mac in your virtual space

01:08:23   that you could turn on and it was a Mac.

01:08:26   That would be interesting.

01:08:28   And I don't know, who knows?

01:08:30   - If you enjoy the show,

01:08:32   If you really enjoy tuning in to upgrade every single week

01:08:34   and you want more of it, there's a really easy way to do that.

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01:09:29   In Upgrade Plus today, we're going to be talking about Wakanda Forever.

01:09:32   We've both seen it and we want to talk about it.

01:09:35   Been like maybe in previous weeks, last week's was really good.

01:09:37   We spoke about the disaster of Twitter a lot last week.

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01:09:43   Go to getupgradeplus.com.

01:09:45   You can sign up, support the show and get bonus content.

01:09:47   Let's finish out today's episode with some hashtag #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:09:53   John asks, in the discussions about Twitter,

01:09:58   I haven't heard much about the one thing that would push me off the service, being forced

01:10:02   to use the official app. Surely Elon will cut the third-party clients sooner rather

01:10:07   than later, right? What do you think?

01:10:09   My feeling, I mean, talk about the missed opportunity, is that for a long time, Twitter

01:10:14   should, could have made a lot of money by just saying if you want to use a third-party

01:10:18   client, you have to be a subscriber. For whatever the cost of whatever became Twitter blue was,

01:10:24   but just make a subscription where like, alright, you want to use a third-party client, that's

01:10:28   fine, pay us $5 a month or $10 a month or whatever, and that is, in addition to all

01:10:33   the other features it gives you, it lets you use a third-party client. I'd be okay

01:10:36   with that. But I agree with Jon in the sense that yes, if Twitter, like as we

01:10:43   said in Upgrade Plus, I find so much value in parts of Twitter that I

01:10:50   feel it's unlikely that I'm gonna get off of Twitter completely unless it

01:10:56   implodes entirely, it's like literally stops working.

01:10:59   There is no Twitter left. Or that all of the information sources that I have that I find

01:11:05   valuable disappear from Twitter is then it is valueless to me. But I'll tell you, if

01:11:11   I can't use my third-party apps of choice, or in this case it's Twitterific for me, if

01:11:15   I can't use Twitterific to be on Twitter or any other third-party app, and I have to use

01:11:21   Twitter's apps or their website, that will probably be the thing that gets me off Twitter.

01:11:26   - Interesting.

01:11:27   I think they 100% will kill them.

01:11:30   I'm surprised he hasn't done it already.

01:11:32   I just think he just doesn't know, honestly.

01:11:34   - It's possible, although again, at this point,

01:11:36   given that they seem to be trying very hard

01:11:38   to come up with reasons

01:11:39   that you would subscribe to Twitter Blue,

01:11:42   I wouldn't put it past them to just say,

01:11:44   "Third-party clients now have to be

01:11:46   "only for Twitter Blue subscribers."

01:11:48   - But Twitter Blue still has ads.

01:11:51   Like, he needs you,

01:11:52   he needs all the money you can possibly get, right?

01:11:55   I know what you're saying,

01:11:56   but I don't imagine that the API is gonna stick around.

01:12:01   - Well, this requires a level of coherency

01:12:04   that I don't think that the company has right now.

01:12:06   But in the long run, what should have happened all along

01:12:08   was that they should have said, okay,

01:12:10   instead of saying we're gonna not do the API

01:12:12   and you're all gonna die, and oh, well, not right,

01:12:14   you can hang on and be a third-party client,

01:12:16   but it's not gonna be very good.

01:12:18   What they should have said way back when was,

01:12:20   we're gonna keep doing the API,

01:12:22   we're gonna upgrade the API,

01:12:23   but here's what's gonna happen.

01:12:24   You have to be a Twitter subscriber, whatever that is,

01:12:27   in order to have access to it in your app.

01:12:29   So you're gonna have to have a,

01:12:30   it's gonna have to be connected to an app

01:12:32   that is a Twitter subscriber.

01:12:34   And separately, you are going to, you the app developer,

01:12:39   we are going to, in the API, provide you with ads

01:12:41   that you have to show, right?

01:12:43   They said you have to display, you know,

01:12:47   it can't be a star, it has to be a heart,

01:12:49   and you have to have these three icons.

01:12:51   Like they put all of these restrictions in there,

01:12:53   But what they didn't do is say,

01:12:54   "And also we're gonna provide you an ad

01:12:56   "that you have to display in the feed."

01:12:58   They could have, they could still.

01:13:00   Will they?

01:13:01   Yeah, no, probably not,

01:13:02   because that would require a lot of effort

01:13:04   and they seem to have lost half their people.

01:13:06   So, yeah.

01:13:07   But anyway, I think that they could have done that.

01:13:10   And I think you're right,

01:13:11   other than the fact that it's just been ignored,

01:13:13   it would seem to be a very easy thing for Elon

01:13:18   to hear about that there are third-party clients

01:13:21   that don't see ads and don't do an algorithmic timeline

01:13:23   and say, "Just cut 'em off."

01:13:24   - I feel like it will happen.

01:13:26   It's just a matter of time.

01:13:27   - Yeah, well, that would probably push me over the edge

01:13:30   because my Twitter life has been entirely mediated

01:13:33   by Twitterific, and if I'm now using the Twitter app

01:13:37   or their website, yeah, probably not.

01:13:40   - I think that, I mean, but maybe I would say at this point

01:13:43   it's, you might not get to it before it shuts down,

01:13:48   stuff's working. - Right, right.

01:13:50   What a battle, what a battle.

01:13:52   it's Listeros or the lettuce.

01:13:54   - Oh boy.

01:13:57   Michael asks, "Do you think Apple will actually put

01:14:00   a USB-C port on the next generation of iPhones

01:14:03   or will they try to find another way

01:14:05   to be compliant with the EU rule?"

01:14:07   - I think everybody's overthinking this.

01:14:11   I feel like the USB-C transition in the iPhone

01:14:14   was always inevitable.

01:14:15   Apple has been making that transition

01:14:17   on all of its other products.

01:14:19   I suspect that they've been targeting 2023

01:14:21   to do it all along and that it has nothing to do with the EU at all.

01:14:27   Yeah and also I mean I've had a cursory read of the ruling. There kind of isn't a

01:14:33   way around it. No. Unless they've... because I actually don't even think that they

01:14:39   could go all Qi charging. Like I don't think that that's the thing that they

01:14:43   could do right now or at least not do easily without the EU, especially on

01:14:49   on their first attempt getting all up in their business?

01:14:54   - In fact, I think this has been a plan for Apple all along

01:14:57   because we have had those rumors about,

01:14:58   well, it's just gonna be portless,

01:14:59   but it's like that has seemed unrealistic.

01:15:01   It's possible that they kept stringing along

01:15:03   the Lightning port 'cause they hoped

01:15:04   that they would never have to do USB-C

01:15:05   and they'd just go to portless,

01:15:06   but I've never really thought that that was a realistic goal.

01:15:09   I feel like you need to do something.

01:15:11   Maybe they've got some smart connector kind of thing

01:15:14   in the works, but they don't have it ready yet.

01:15:17   But I prefer the simple solution,

01:15:21   which is they knew that they were gonna bring

01:15:22   all their products over to USB-C.

01:15:24   It was only a matter of time.

01:15:26   That includes the mouse and the track pad and AirPods cases.

01:15:30   Like they knew they had to get there eventually,

01:15:33   but it is expensive to redesign your product

01:15:35   so that they put it off as long as they could.

01:15:38   And that the EU will be a,

01:15:40   perhaps get them to do it a little faster

01:15:42   than they would have done it, but that they will do it.

01:15:44   - And also be a shield, right?

01:15:46   It's like a PR shield.

01:15:46   - Blame the EU this time, yeah.

01:15:49   Instead of everybody will be like,

01:15:50   "Oh, Apple, you changed the connector again."

01:15:52   Like a decade ago when they changed it the last time,

01:15:54   it's been a long time, but they're like,

01:15:56   "Oh, Apple, they keep changing the connector

01:15:57   every year or two."

01:15:58   Not true, but people will say that.

01:16:00   And Apple will be like, "It's not me, man, it's the EU.

01:16:02   It's the EU, they made us do it."

01:16:04   Blame the Europeans, it's Brussels' fault.

01:16:08   They did the sprouts and they took away your lightning

01:16:10   and it's their fault.

01:16:11   - It's their fault.

01:16:12   Richard asks, "Do you think apps like Uber

01:16:16   will actually use live activities.

01:16:18   Uber has recently started in-app advertising,

01:16:21   and live activities would mean users

01:16:22   would have to open the app less frequently

01:16:25   and therefore would see fewer ads.

01:16:27   So I have some thoughts on this.

01:16:28   -Yes. -I am genuinely surprised

01:16:30   they have not embraced live activities already,

01:16:33   because live activities are awesome.

01:16:35   I don't think it would change

01:16:38   how often people are actually opening the app,

01:16:40   because Uber has always been very, like, forward

01:16:44   in the notifications that they send you.

01:16:46   the push notifications send you about all the information you need, right?

01:16:49   Like when the car's coming, they're not like, "Hey, open the app to find out the info,"

01:16:53   right?

01:16:54   Like they actually say, "Your car's nearly here.

01:16:56   Here's the license plate."

01:16:58   Once you've ordered the ride, you don't need to be going back into the app to check stuff

01:17:03   if you don't want to.

01:17:04   So I think live activities would still do the same amount.

01:17:07   You still have to open the app to request the ride.

01:17:09   So if you want to see the ads, you can get that that way.

01:17:12   And honestly, we've seen it.

01:17:13   Uber don't care about sending push notifications for ads.

01:17:16   They are sending currently push notifications for ads

01:17:19   that aren't even their company.

01:17:20   Like there's like Peloton ads inside of the Uber app

01:17:24   that are being sent by push notification.

01:17:25   Like they'll advertise to you as part of the live activity,

01:17:29   I'm sure, right?

01:17:30   Like, and then it's on your screen.

01:17:31   They can show you things like,

01:17:33   hey, while you're waiting, do you want to get some food?

01:17:35   Like, I don't think that they would,

01:17:38   I don't think this is the reason

01:17:39   they haven't done live activities.

01:17:41   And I want more companies to embrace it.

01:17:43   like the food company that we have here, Deliveroo,

01:17:46   I could like to see them do it,

01:17:48   because the apps that have done it, it's so good.

01:17:50   And so I hope that they will.

01:17:52   - Again, I'm gonna be,

01:17:53   sorry to bring everybody down with reality,

01:17:55   but like, I don't think it's a conspiracy here.

01:17:58   I think that a lot of companies

01:18:00   do their iOS development cycles

01:18:01   based on the new OS being announced in June

01:18:03   and shipping in September.

01:18:05   And they put effort into doing their version updates

01:18:09   and doing a lot of work.

01:18:10   And they have a whole plan

01:18:11   that they're gonna come out in the fall

01:18:12   with their new version.

01:18:13   And then one week from that new version of the OS shipping,

01:18:18   Apple announces an entirely new API for this.

01:18:23   And I mean, for the dynamic island anyway,

01:18:27   Live Activities was there before,

01:18:28   but like it has been, or was it there?

01:18:31   Or were they saying it was coming later?

01:18:32   It was always a coming later, right?

01:18:34   - Live Activities was a thing that was coming,

01:18:36   but the actual API didn't become available

01:18:39   until the iPhone event, I think.

01:18:40   because of the dynamic island being a part of it.

01:18:43   So that's what I'd say is let's not jump to conclusions

01:18:47   about why more apps are not supporting

01:18:50   live activities right now.

01:18:51   I think the real answer is the API didn't get released

01:18:55   until September.

01:18:56   And on top of that, a lot of companies that build apps

01:18:59   sort of had a rhythm for their app development

01:19:02   that this didn't fit.

01:19:04   So give them time.

01:19:06   It's probably gonna take some time.

01:19:10   I would say, let's check back in June

01:19:13   and see how many apps have live activities.

01:19:15   - If you would like to send in a question

01:19:17   for us to answer on the show,

01:19:18   just send out a tweet with the #AskUpgrade

01:19:21   or you can use ?AskUpgrade in the Relay FM members discord.

01:19:26   I'd like to thank our sponsors for this week's episode,

01:19:28   StoryWorth and Squarespace.

01:19:30   And thank you if you sign up to support the show

01:19:32   at getupgradeplus.com.

01:19:34   If you want to find Jason online, you can go to sixcolors.com

01:19:37   and he is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.

01:19:40   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:19:43   And you can find this show and many others

01:19:45   over at relay.fm/shows.

01:19:47   You can find a new podcast to add to your queue

01:19:50   if that's what you're looking for.

01:19:52   Don't forget as well, go to upgradees.vote

01:19:54   and you can put in your nominations

01:19:56   for the ninth annual upgradees

01:19:58   coming your way sometime in December.

01:20:02   Thanks so much for listening

01:20:03   to this week's episode of Upgrade

01:20:05   and we'll be back next time.

01:20:07   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:20:09   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:20:10   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:20:14   [ Music ]