431: Charty Charty Money Charts


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00:00:24   so we don't have to say it ever again during this episode.

00:00:27   We're recording this episode a few days before we usually would.

00:00:30   It's being recorded on Friday the 28th of October,

00:00:34   just in case anything changes between now and episode release.

00:00:37   Probably one, but you're never sure.

00:00:39   I never like to record this far in advance for upgrade.

00:00:42   No, because news breaks, but we have so much news last week.

00:00:47   Oh, there he goes!

00:00:49   See? Professional.

00:00:51   That we figured we could do it, and there's some...

00:00:54   We couldn't record on Monday this week for personal reasons,

00:00:57   not business reasons.

00:00:58   And so here we are a couple of days early.

00:01:00   So yes, if you say, why didn't they mention

00:01:03   that terrible thing that happened on Sunday?

00:01:05   - Now you know why. - This is why.

00:01:07   - And you know, this was one of those things

00:01:09   we were talking about it in our discussions as we tend to.

00:01:12   And I was like, oh, I don't think I can make the episode

00:01:15   on the 31st and Jason very rightly pointed out

00:01:17   but Myke, it's results time.

00:01:19   And I was like, let's do it early, baby.

00:01:21   - Yeah. - I mean.

00:01:22   It's episode 4 31st.

00:01:26   So right, it's like the date.

00:01:29   And it's Halloween, so spooky.

00:01:30   Ooh. - Ooh.

00:01:31   I have a #snailtalk question for you.

00:01:36   Mark wants to know, Jason, do you use web bookmarks?

00:01:40   If you do, how often do you tidy them up,

00:01:42   getting rid of dead or changed links or whatever?

00:01:46   - I say bookmarks if there's a place that I'm going,

00:01:48   I know that I'm going to say, where is that bookmark?

00:01:51   or where is that site later and have forgotten about it.

00:01:54   Honestly, I haven't used a bookmarks menu

00:01:56   in a very long time.

00:01:57   I do have like a toolbar favorites

00:01:59   that I have like the stuff that I use every day.

00:02:01   But for other stuff, I literally, I save it

00:02:04   and then I type in the Safari bar,

00:02:05   like the word that I think is in the name of the bookmark

00:02:09   and find it that way.

00:02:10   And then I go down the menu looking for it.

00:02:12   I just type a word or two like that are the words,

00:02:15   essentially I search in the Safari bar for the name.

00:02:20   name the title tag.

00:02:22   - Why have the bookmarks?

00:02:24   'Cause like all of these web browsers now,

00:02:26   they just auto complete based on your history, right?

00:02:28   So like that's what you're really doing.

00:02:30   - Yeah, but when you bookmark something,

00:02:33   you think I may need this in four months, right?

00:02:38   Or I need to get back to this

00:02:41   and I don't wanna remember it and I don't know,

00:02:43   but I'm, so I'm just gonna say that you're right.

00:02:45   If it's just history,

00:02:47   although I don't think history syncs across devices,

00:02:49   So there's some advantages of bookmarks there too.

00:02:51   But mostly I just do-

00:02:51   - iCloud actually does sync.

00:02:55   - Does sync history?

00:02:56   - Some level of history sometimes, you know, it's iCloud.

00:02:58   You know what I mean?

00:02:59   - My point is I basically toss it in a little pile.

00:03:02   That is, I probably am gonna wanna look at this again

00:03:05   someday and I'm not gonna be able to remember what it is.

00:03:08   So I'm gonna bookmark it and then I'm gonna type a word

00:03:12   that appears in its title and I'm gonna go,

00:03:14   that's the one and I'm gonna go there.

00:03:16   And to the answer the other question,

00:03:18   How often do I tidy them up?

00:03:19   Well, Mark, last year I edited my bookmarks file

00:03:24   and I deleted, I would say hundreds, if not thousands,

00:03:29   that had been there for over probably a decade.

00:03:32   So not very often, but I do, because again,

00:03:36   you're basically just cleaning out the coal bin

00:03:38   at that point, right?

00:03:39   Like I'm not saving that stuff

00:03:43   in a brilliantly curated list.

00:03:45   I'm literally, it's a save for later

00:03:47   in case I need this URL kind of thing.

00:03:51   'Cause you know, I just, it's one of those things

00:03:53   where you see a product, like I guess I could have them open

00:03:55   in like tabs or something, but I don't really want them.

00:03:57   I don't really want them open because if I think I'm gonna

00:04:00   act on them soon, I might send them to a tab.

00:04:03   But a lot of this stuff is like, I might need this later.

00:04:06   I'm gonna save a bookmark so that I can find this site later

00:04:09   because otherwise I'm never gonna remember it and that's it.

00:04:12   - If you would like to send in a question

00:04:13   to help us open a future episode of the show,

00:04:15   just send out a tweet with the hashtag snow talk or use question mark snow talk in the

00:04:19   relay fan members discord.

00:04:21   I have installed ventura, it happened after the episode.

00:04:26   I wanted to install it and talk about it in upgrade plus but it didn't happen in time.

00:04:31   One of the things I just wanted to mention as a piece of follow up was my experience

00:04:34   of continuity camera.

00:04:37   It's exactly what I wanted because I now have a webcam that doesn't flicker like madness

00:04:43   because of my overhead lighting.

00:04:47   The way that I worked it out is, I don't have a mount for the studio display, there isn't

00:04:52   one yet.

00:04:54   I had an Elgato Flex Arm, which is like an arm system that you use.

00:04:59   I use it for some of my lights, I bought a few of them during podcastathon time one year,

00:05:03   and I had a spare one.

00:05:05   So I hooked that up to hover over the back of my desk and then I put a glyph from Studio

00:05:09   neat above it so I could just put my phone up there, clip it in, turn on and then the

00:05:14   camera comes on, fantastic.

00:05:16   And I took Jason's advice, I turned off center stage and it looked fantastic.

00:05:21   It's the best I've looked on a video call in a long time.

00:05:24   However, I want to add something in.

00:05:25   Now I knew it was going to happen and Apple tried to tell me they were super smart, not

00:05:29   they didn't tell me, they tried to tell everyone, "Oh there's no way we have algorithms."

00:05:33   I was on a call with Steven yesterday, I had my phone on the desk in front of me, camera

00:05:38   down, and it went ba-ding! And it connected. So not really that smart to be honest. As

00:05:47   I knew this was going to happen, it's going to keep happening, that's just life. But when

00:05:52   it works, and it does work, fantastic.

00:05:54   Yep, I agree. I agree.

00:05:57   Have you ever had it happen to you where it turns on when you didn't want it to?

00:06:01   So I did a live stream with Dan Morin after the Apple results came out last week, and

00:06:08   I opened Ecamm Live and I wasn't using it as the camera, but my phone was on my desk

00:06:14   and the moment I opened Ecamm Live it went "da-ding!"

00:06:17   It looks like essentially it looks like you're using cameras now.

00:06:21   I'm one.

00:06:22   I'm like okay, alright, fine.

00:06:27   Joanna Stern had an interview with Craig Viderighi and Greg Joswiak as part of the Wall Street

00:06:35   journal Tech Live event, which is pretty cool actually.

00:06:39   I still have it saved in my YouTube to watch the whole thing, but I've seen some clips.

00:06:42   I wanted to bring it up here because during this interview, Jaws confirmed that Apple

00:06:48   will be moving to USB-C, as they have to, but it's a confirmation.

00:06:53   There's a quote, this is like, the clip is longer.

00:06:55   I'm going to point in the show notes the full video, it's like a two minute thing.

00:06:59   And his answer is interesting.

00:07:00   I think it's very Appley, and honestly I could like, whatever.

00:07:04   what he said is we will have to comply with the law but it would have been better to not

00:07:08   have a government be that prescriptive. So Greg kind of like he talks about innovation

00:07:14   and all that kind of stuff and how governments standards can impede innovation. But I'm

00:07:20   not sure I fully agree with him when it comes to USB-C specifically like he brings up micro USB

00:07:26   but that was always bad. We never liked micro USB as a connector. Nobody wanted all phones

00:07:32   to go to micro USB, but people are more happy with USB-C because it is a much more universal,

00:07:38   convenient and good connector. So I still stand by it, but it's interesting to hear

00:07:42   and talk about it.

00:07:43   Yeah, I mean, it's very much like a talk show, Jon Gruber talk show, WWDC interview, you've

00:07:48   got Apple execs, they're on point, they're not gonna like blurt out things that they

00:07:55   don't plan on saying, but they can provide a little more detail about their way of thinking

00:08:00   that we've, in this case, it's a perfect example actually of how we've got the rumors, we've

00:08:05   got the news reports about Europe, rumors that Apple's doing a USB-C iPhone. All that

00:08:10   is out there. So anybody who's observing knows what's going to happen. But it's different

00:08:18   at least to have the person from Apple say, "Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, we were going to

00:08:23   have to." That, and that's what we got.

00:08:28   Speaking of rumors…

00:08:29   How about a rumor roundup?

00:08:31   - Sounds great, let's do it.

00:08:33   - So there is a report from Wayne Marr at the information

00:08:38   that Apple is working on a 16 inch iPad Pro

00:08:42   to be released next year, could be released next year.

00:08:46   Probably 2024.

00:08:47   Anyway, quote, "A 16 inch iPad would likely be geared

00:08:51   "to all creative professionals such as graphic artists

00:08:53   "and designers who prefer a larger screen.

00:08:56   "We had previously discussed the rumor

00:08:58   of a 14 inch iPad Pro.

00:09:01   So here's my question to you, Tason.

00:09:04   16 inch, 14 inch, do we get one of these or both of them?

00:09:09   - I wonder what the source,

00:09:12   it sounds like these are both pretty decent rumors.

00:09:15   And so this is a question is what,

00:09:16   is Apple really gonna just supersize the iPad Pro

00:09:20   or the supersize the iPad, right?

00:09:22   I assume they should be called iPad Pro.

00:09:24   There's that iPad studio idea right out there

00:09:27   that these are more arty kind of things,

00:09:30   but at the same time with stage manager,

00:09:32   you could also use them as laptops basically,

00:09:35   like a 14 and 16 inch MacBook Pros.

00:09:38   And so they 14 and 16 inch iPad Pro, MacBook Pro.

00:09:42   And then what happens to the rest of the product line?

00:09:45   I think it could happen.

00:09:46   I think it's entirely possible it will happen.

00:09:49   How many different iPad models does Apple wanna make

00:09:52   is the question, right?

00:09:52   Now, right now, the fact is that they make

00:09:55   an almost 11 inch iPad, an almost 11 inch iPad,

00:09:58   an 11 inch iPad, an 11 inch iPad,

00:10:01   and a 12.9 inch iPad, and the iPad mini, right?

00:10:05   So there's room for more variation than we have right now

00:10:08   in the product line.

00:10:10   But I would be surprised if Apple goes all in on big iPads

00:10:15   and comes out with two different size models,

00:10:17   instead of sort of testing the waters.

00:10:20   This is why these reports being in conflict

00:10:23   is kind of fascinating to me.

00:10:25   I also wonder if there's a detail we're missing here.

00:10:28   Like, are these iPads,

00:10:32   is there an accessory we don't understand

00:10:34   or don't know about, or are they kind of more,

00:10:36   I wanted to say, are they convertibles?

00:10:38   But I think the answer to,

00:10:39   Apple's answer to convertibles, like on the PC side,

00:10:42   is accessories, right, for the iPad.

00:10:44   I think their answer is,

00:10:45   if you want your iPad to also be a laptop,

00:10:48   you snap on a thing, and now it's a laptop.

00:10:52   You don't flip it around and pull it off

00:10:54   and stuff like that, it's a separate accessory that you buy.

00:10:59   It's interesting 'cause like, again,

00:11:00   I have just not felt like Apple's level of enthusiasm

00:11:04   for the high end of the iPad line would lead to them saying,

00:11:10   "Well, heck yeah, let's just go 14 and 16 like the laptops

00:11:13   and the artists will love it

00:11:15   and the people who use the keyboards will love it

00:11:17   'cause it's basically the size of a MacBook Pro

00:11:19   at that point."

00:11:20   - People that use the iPad for work will probably love it.

00:11:24   I have my vision, Jason, is five or six iPads,

00:11:29   no size variations, all with their own unique name, right?

00:11:35   - Oh, that's the dream, right?

00:11:36   - This is what I could see here.

00:11:38   So you got iPad, right?

00:11:39   We know what the iPad is, we spoke about it.

00:11:40   iPad Air, right?

00:11:42   iPad Pro, and then iPad Studio, and/or iPad Ultra.

00:11:47   They can choose, right?

00:11:50   And so iPad we know, iPad Air we know.

00:11:52   No 11 inch iPad Pro anymore, get rid of that.

00:11:54   - You said all the same size.

00:11:57   - Yeah, all one size as in like each name has one iPad.

00:12:01   - See, okay, 'cause I thought you were saying

00:12:03   kind of as a joke. - There's five 16 inch iPads.

00:12:05   - It's like, what I think they need to do

00:12:07   is they need to release, are you getting it yet?

00:12:09   Five different 14 inch iPads. - These are all five iPads,

00:12:12   they're one iPad. - But technically not though,

00:12:14   it'll be the 13.9 inch iPad, the 14 inch iPad Air,

00:12:17   the 14.2 inch iPad Pro and the 14.25 inch iPad Studio.

00:12:22   Yeah, no, okay, I get what you mean,

00:12:27   which is the name means the size

00:12:28   instead of it being like what it is now

00:12:32   where there's three different names for products

00:12:34   that are almost exactly the same size.

00:12:35   - 'Cause I really think that the 11 inch iPad Pro

00:12:38   that we have now is the last we're gonna see.

00:12:41   Like, I think that Apple's put that writing on the wall.

00:12:43   - Absolutely, absolutely.

00:12:45   I think now the iPad Air is so good.

00:12:48   Like basically, I'm like imagining them like if okay, if the iPads are like the Max now,

00:12:54   how would that look and work?

00:12:57   And so I don't know if honestly if they would do a 14 inch and a 16 inch but if they do,

00:13:02   I think the iPad Pro just comes in 14 and then they have a bigger one, which is studio

00:13:08   or ultra and it's 16 and it's different in some way like, you know, like maybe the Pro

00:13:13   gets like the OLED screen or whatever,

00:13:16   and the 16 inch gets a LCD screen or whatever,

00:13:20   mini LED, or whatever it is, but it's like,

00:13:23   it's not necessarily the most specs,

00:13:26   even though it would be the most expensive

00:13:28   'cause it's the biggest.

00:13:29   Like I think the line might get weird,

00:13:31   but the idea being like, these are your products,

00:13:35   and you choose which one you need based on your use case,

00:13:40   which I think is much more like how you pick a Mac.

00:13:43   - Right, and the idea, I mean, first off,

00:13:44   you could parallel the Mac line in a bunch of ways

00:13:46   with the names, right?

00:13:47   Where there's a MacBook Air,

00:13:49   and then there's a MacBook Pro 14 and 16.

00:13:51   - And then you've got the big beefy one

00:13:53   for specific use cases.

00:13:55   - Right, and then I start to think,

00:13:57   I mentioned that you wouldn't do a convertible

00:14:00   if you're Apple.

00:14:01   Like I wrote those articles way back when

00:14:03   about like they should do a laptop.

00:14:05   And the answer was, well, no, they did the Magic Keyboard.

00:14:09   And I think that's true.

00:14:10   And I think that this vision that Apple has

00:14:13   that I think Federico has done a really good job

00:14:15   of writing and speaking about and defining,

00:14:20   it's the idea that the iPad, the point of the iPad

00:14:22   is that it's what you want it to be at any given time.

00:14:26   And it starts with a touch tablet

00:14:28   and then it goes where you want.

00:14:29   You can add a pencil, you can add a keyboard,

00:14:32   you can plug it into a monitor,

00:14:34   you can sort of do, turn it into other things

00:14:37   and it's the same device.

00:14:38   And that's the point of it.

00:14:40   Whereas a Mac is a Mac, it does its thing,

00:14:42   and that's the thing it does.

00:14:43   It's not a transforming device like an iPad can be.

00:14:48   And the next step once you accept that about the iPad

00:14:52   is that the iPad is defined as much by its accessories

00:14:55   and as it is by itself as a product.

00:14:59   And so when we talk about a 14 or a 16 inch iPad,

00:15:01   I start to think, well, yeah, what are the accessories?

00:15:04   Like a keyboard thing that makes it a laptop,

00:15:09   a 14 or 16 inch laptop like the MacBook Pro

00:15:12   is one of those things.

00:15:13   But when you talk about like maybe the 16

00:15:16   would not be the ultra iPad,

00:15:19   but could be one thought that I had is

00:15:21   could be the iPad studio where the selling point is

00:15:26   that it is for artists.

00:15:28   - Big drawing canvas.

00:15:29   - Exactly.

00:15:30   Well, you could see maybe there's a different setup for that

00:15:33   where there's a different ergonomics for the size

00:15:38   leads to a different kind of case for it, where you're using it on a lap or on a

00:15:44   table. With Stage Manager and external display support and all of that, I do

00:15:50   wonder if a larger iPad Pro might even have like a dock kind of thing, where you

00:15:57   put it on a desk and it docks with devices that are on a desk,

00:16:03   like a desktop dock. They could do that if they wanted to. And Apple

00:16:07   expresses its vision for the iPad as a platform

00:16:10   through the accessories.

00:16:13   It's not just that, you know,

00:16:14   I said the accessories define it,

00:16:15   but the other way to view it is it's also Apple,

00:16:18   like we over the years have attached all sorts

00:16:20   of weird things to the iPad,

00:16:21   where it's like Federico is running it in mirrored mode

00:16:24   and attaching a keyboard,

00:16:26   and you still have to use the touch screen

00:16:28   and stuff like that.

00:16:29   And over time, you know, there comes that moment

00:16:31   where Apple says, here's the magic keyboard.

00:16:33   This is okay now.

00:16:35   Like we now say, yes, the iPad is meant to be used

00:16:38   like a laptop with a pointing device and a keyboard.

00:16:41   That's one of its uses.

00:16:43   Or when everybody had the little rubber styluses

00:16:45   and then Apple said, "Hmm, Apple Pencil."

00:16:47   Like that was Apple saying,

00:16:48   "Yes, now our vision for this product includes that."

00:16:51   So what does that mean for a 14, 16,

00:16:55   a change at the upper end of the iPad?

00:17:00   I don't know, but it's really interesting to think about it

00:17:02   because probably the accessories are part of what defines it.

00:17:06   Also, not just on the high end, right?

00:17:08   Because I know that there's been a lot of discussion about,

00:17:11   I know you guys have talked about it on "Connected,"

00:17:13   the idea of that Google tablet that has a dock

00:17:16   that turns it into kind of like a--

00:17:17   - Home.

00:17:18   - Like an Amazon, what is that called?

00:17:21   - Show, Echo Show.

00:17:23   - Echo Show.

00:17:23   - Yeah.

00:17:24   - Where we've been talking on this podcast

00:17:26   about the idea of what if Apple made a thing

00:17:29   that was kind of like an iPad, but kind of like a HomePod.

00:17:33   Well, one way for Apple to do that

00:17:34   is to literally make a dock for the iPad

00:17:39   that is a HomePod.

00:17:42   And so you could drop an iPad in

00:17:43   and now it's an iPad and a thing.

00:17:46   So it's got a screen and a speaker and all of that.

00:17:50   And you could also just lift it out and it's an iPad.

00:17:52   And that's interesting too.

00:17:53   So there are a lot of rumors, a lot of speculation.

00:17:57   These are baffling enough to me,

00:17:58   the idea that they will be working on a 16 and a 14,

00:18:01   that it obviously led me down this path

00:18:03   of kind of talking about all this stuff.

00:18:05   But it's because my instinct is, if they're doing this,

00:18:10   there's way more to this story

00:18:13   than is visible above the waterline right now.

00:18:15   Like there's something going on beyond just,

00:18:19   yeah, we're gonna make a couple bigger iPads, right?

00:18:22   It's not gonna be enough for that to be the story.

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00:19:49   Money time!

00:19:50   Oh boy, you know, first iPads, we could do a whole show about that, but we can't stop.

00:19:54   We can't stop because it's charts time. Money money money money money money money money

00:19:59   money money money money money money money money money money money money money money

00:20:00   money money money money money money money money money money money money money money

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00:20:02   money money money money money money money money money money money money money money

00:20:03   money money money money money money money money money money money money money money

00:20:04   money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money

00:20:05   money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money

00:20:06   money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money

00:20:07   two results are out. If you remember, obviously, Apple has their financial year and it doesn't

00:20:12   match up completely with the calendar year. So the Q4 results end the end of September

00:20:20   and then the holiday season is Q1, right? So that's the next one.

00:20:25   Yeah, Q1 of 23.

00:20:26   Mm-hmm, which, you know, very confusing, but finances.

00:20:31   Think about it when they report—think about when they report it instead of when they have

00:20:34   it is the way to think about it.

00:20:35   Oh, look at you.

00:20:36   - In February 23, they'll report on Q123.

00:20:39   So it's, which happens in 22, but don't think that far,

00:20:42   just leave it when they talk about it, go on from there.

00:20:46   - Let me do some top line and then we can dig in.

00:20:48   - Okay.

00:20:49   - The revenue for the quarter was 90.1 billion.

00:20:54   - By a billion.

00:20:55   - Billion of a B dollars.

00:20:58   That is up 8% year over year,

00:21:00   making it a record Q4 for the company.

00:21:04   and they brought in $20.7 billion of profit.

00:21:07   The Mac was at 11.5 billion, up 25% year over year.

00:21:12   This was a record all time quarter for the Mac.

00:21:15   Is that right?

00:21:17   - Yes, the biggest Mac quarter ever.

00:21:18   - Incredible.

00:21:19   The iPad, $7.2 billion of revenue, down 13% year over year.

00:21:24   The iPhone, $42.6 billion of revenue,

00:21:29   up 10% year over year.

00:21:31   I believe this is a Q4 record for the iPhone.

00:21:34   - Would not surprise me.

00:21:35   I'm not 100% on that, but yeah, I think you're right.

00:21:37   - I did some digging and again,

00:21:39   it's hard 'cause of charts and stuff,

00:21:40   but like as far as I could tell, yes.

00:21:42   Because really, if it's bigger than any

00:21:46   when the iPhone 6 was around,

00:21:47   and if it beat that, it'd be everything.

00:21:49   - Exactly.

00:21:51   - Services is $19.2 billion, which is up 5%,

00:21:56   but we'll get into this in a minute,

00:21:57   down again on the previous calendar quarter,

00:22:01   which is an interesting thing for services.

00:22:03   It's the thing I don't feel like you pay attention to

00:22:05   for anything else, but services is a little bit different

00:22:09   'cause it's all just like in theory should be additive

00:22:11   if nobody's canceling, but maybe they are.

00:22:13   Wearable home and accessories, $9.7 billion, up 10%.

00:22:18   I believe this is also a Q4 record as well.

00:22:21   So you can see where they were shining,

00:22:24   but there were some places where they weren't,

00:22:25   but overall led to an increase year over year.

00:22:29   This was higher than they forecasted, right?

00:22:31   That 90.1?

00:22:32   - Well, they don't forecast anymore.

00:22:35   - Oh yeah, I forgot they stopped doing it, didn't they?

00:22:37   - It was more than was expected, I would say.

00:22:40   - Yep.

00:22:41   - Yeah.

00:22:42   - Let's talk about,

00:22:43   oh, let me do just one last thing in numbers.

00:22:46   The revenue by category for the quarter,

00:22:48   iPhone 47%,

00:22:50   services 21%,

00:22:52   Mac 13%,

00:22:53   11% for wearables,

00:22:55   8% for iPad, pretty similar to other quarters frequently,

00:23:00   I feel like.

00:23:01   - Yeah, it's a little lower than like next time

00:23:04   iPhone will be 55 or 60%, but yeah, basically the same.

00:23:09   - So I think the services are interesting.

00:23:10   Remember on last week's episode,

00:23:12   there was some breaking news that they're putting up services

00:23:16   by like, they're putting up the bundles a little bit?

00:23:19   - Yep.

00:23:20   - Do you reckon this is related?

00:23:22   - Okay, it is related, but in a complicated way, right?

00:23:25   - I love it.

00:23:26   - So, well, I actually had to do math yesterday,

00:23:31   as sometimes happens, which is, think about,

00:23:34   so one of the things that affects services

00:23:36   more than other categories at Apple is exchange rates.

00:23:39   So they talk a lot about foreign exchange,

00:23:41   headwinds, that's their metaphor.

00:23:43   - Everyone's, this is the new,

00:23:45   headwinds is the new like business speak, it feels like.

00:23:48   - Yeah, every C-suite executive either owns a sailboat

00:23:53   or fancies that they own a sailboat.

00:23:55   everyone keeps talking about it, like headwinds,

00:23:57   as like, it's a way to say declining

00:24:00   without saying declining.

00:24:02   Just like, oh, we've got some headwinds.

00:24:03   You know the headwinds.

00:24:04   - I mean, what they mean is that the environment

00:24:06   is against them, right?

00:24:07   And I think that this is accurate.

00:24:09   So when we talk about foreign exchange,

00:24:11   and Apple will say that foreign exchange really hurts them,

00:24:13   and you might be saying to yourself, how does that happen?

00:24:15   Well, services is a great example of how it happens

00:24:17   because the dollar, as they said,

00:24:19   is stronger than it was against essentially

00:24:22   every currency right now.

00:24:24   The dollar is very strong.

00:24:25   And if you're an American, that's great,

00:24:27   'cause it means that when you go to any other country,

00:24:31   your money goes further than it used to.

00:24:33   That's great.

00:24:34   It's bad if you're any other country

00:24:36   and you are buying products from America,

00:24:38   'cause they're more expensive than they used to be.

00:24:40   Where it hits Apple and services is,

00:24:42   if you think about a product,

00:24:44   Apple doesn't shift their prices too often,

00:24:47   but they, until last week,

00:24:49   they didn't shift their services prices at all.

00:24:51   And more to the point,

00:24:52   your services prices every month or every year,

00:24:54   you just get charged for it.

00:24:55   And the price stays the same, right?

00:24:56   Until they raise it, the price stays the same.

00:24:58   So theoretically, if you go buy a Mac,

00:25:01   in two years from now,

00:25:02   they might raise the price of that Mac.

00:25:03   Apple tends to not do that, but they could.

00:25:06   - They do do it.

00:25:07   - And actually outside of the US, they do, right?

00:25:09   - Outside of the US, they do it all the time.

00:25:11   They adjust every time they release a new product,

00:25:14   they adjust the prices.

00:25:15   - Right, for this reason.

00:25:17   But services, they don't do that.

00:25:18   So you end up in a situation, I'll give you an example,

00:25:21   and you know this example, Myke,

00:25:23   Apple TV Plus debuted in the UK

00:25:26   at four pounds 99 per month, right?

00:25:30   At the time, that was 641 in American dollars every month,

00:25:35   coming back to Apple.

00:25:37   Today, because the dollar is stronger against the pound,

00:25:41   it would only be worth 573 per month for them.

00:25:44   And this is true everywhere in the world,

00:25:46   everywhere in the world where these services

00:25:49   are at a fixed cost,

00:25:51   over time as the dollar has gotten stronger,

00:25:53   all of them have generated less revenue.

00:25:55   Now what Apple will tell you is that services grew

00:25:59   double digits year over year.

00:26:01   So at least twice as the 5% that it grew overall

00:26:05   in local currency.

00:26:08   - Wait, what does that mean?

00:26:09   Can you explain, what does that mean?

00:26:11   Local currency?

00:26:12   - That means that if I look at how much money

00:26:14   I made on Apple services in the UK,

00:26:16   in Great British Pounds,

00:26:19   last year at this time, and then this year at this time,

00:26:21   it's up more than, you know, up 10 or more percent.

00:26:25   They didn't say, they just set up double digits.

00:26:27   But then you convert it to dollars,

00:26:30   and last year the exchange rate was better.

00:26:33   And so now it looks like it's down or flat,

00:26:37   even though it actually in Great Britain pounds is up.

00:26:41   So that's what they mean.

00:26:42   And I know it's esoteric,

00:26:44   but the services gets hit by it

00:26:46   more than a product here and there,

00:26:48   because they can adjust the product prices,

00:26:50   but they don't generally,

00:26:52   I know they just raise the price everywhere around the world

00:26:54   for their services,

00:26:56   but what they don't do and haven't done

00:26:59   is every six months change the Apple TV+ price

00:27:03   in all countries to be different

00:27:06   in order to fit with exchange rates.

00:27:08   They just eat it, right?

00:27:10   So anyway, they're saying,

00:27:12   if you're trying to see how we're doing on services money,

00:27:17   what you're seeing is being swamped

00:27:19   by weird foreign exchange things that are happening.

00:27:23   And there is absolutely truth in that.

00:27:25   So when they raise the prices,

00:27:28   is this one of the reasons why?

00:27:30   I think it is.

00:27:31   Although they, in their press release and on the call,

00:27:34   they both, Tim Cook made the point of saying,

00:27:37   basically they blame, as we said last week,

00:27:41   they blame the record companies for the Apple Music increase.

00:27:45   Their licensing fee went up.

00:27:46   And the way he said it,

00:27:47   'cause we were laughing about it last week about the,

00:27:50   you know, it does mean your favorite artists

00:27:53   will be paid more, but you know,

00:27:55   it's the, our licensing fee went up

00:27:58   and that's why we're raising it.

00:27:59   So we blame the record companies,

00:28:00   but we appreciate that this money will be going

00:28:02   at least in part to your favorite artists.

00:28:04   On the call, what Tim Cook said is something like,

00:28:07   "At least artists will get paid more."

00:28:08   So that's something, I guess.

00:28:10   It was really reluctant.

00:28:11   - Okay, there you go.

00:28:12   So I mean, that's telling you what we were saying.

00:28:14   It's like, it happens, but we actually don't care.

00:28:17   (laughs)

00:28:18   - Yeah, it's like this,

00:28:19   them raising our licensing fee sucks,

00:28:21   but at least the, you know,

00:28:22   at least the artist will get more, so whatever.

00:28:25   Whereas the Apple TV+,

00:28:26   he gave an argument for raising Apple TV+,

00:28:28   and what he said was,

00:28:29   "Well, when we launched it, there wasn't anything on it,

00:28:33   so it was cheap.

00:28:34   But now we made a lot of stuff,

00:28:35   so now there's more stuff there.

00:28:36   So now we have to raise the price."

00:28:38   - Well, no, you see,

00:28:39   but that's the wrong argument though, isn't it?

00:28:40   Because the actual argument is when we launched it,

00:28:44   we gave it away for free because there was nothing on it. Because we knew that $5.99

00:28:48   a month was too expensive.

00:28:49   - Right, but then three months in or whatever, we charged you $5.99 because there wasn't

00:28:56   a big catalog, but we built up a big catalog.

00:28:58   - That was kind of strange, like that argument of like...

00:29:02   - I feel like their answer should really be, "We're making a bunch more stuff now, and

00:29:06   so we're gonna..." I mean, nobody's gonna say the truth, which is like the Disney+ thing,

00:29:10   right? Where they started it low and everybody knew they were gonna raise it and they did.

00:29:14   And the right answer is, well, we started low

00:29:16   'cause we wanted to get people used to it

00:29:18   and now we wanna increase it so we get more money.

00:29:21   I mean, that's the answer, but they're not gonna say that.

00:29:23   - So, okay, that's a really good point in context to me

00:29:27   'cause I was looking at the services thing,

00:29:29   was like, that doesn't look good, right?

00:29:31   'Cause it's like, it keeps going down.

00:29:32   - Two quarters down sequentially, which is,

00:29:35   you know, again, it's up year over year,

00:29:38   but you can't keep that up, right?

00:29:39   You go down, once you go down four quarters sequentially,

00:29:43   guess what, you're not gonna be up year over year anymore,

00:29:45   right, you're gonna keep going down.

00:29:47   You can only do it so much.

00:29:49   - And services is the rare thing where like in theory,

00:29:52   if you're doing everything right,

00:29:53   it continues to go up forever because you're keeping

00:29:56   customers and acquiring new customers.

00:29:58   But at least it seems like what they're saying is

00:30:01   they're giving that rare piece of detail

00:30:02   'cause it helps them, right,

00:30:04   'cause they don't give these kinds of details.

00:30:05   So we definitely had user growth,

00:30:08   but the money has changed.

00:30:09   So now, I mean, we're probably gonna get

00:30:12   a real nice jump up for the next quarter, right?

00:30:14   As the prices go up or whatever, but that's interesting.

00:30:18   - I would think, it depends on foreign exchange.

00:30:20   I would imagine that in the long run,

00:30:22   I mean, there's this question of like, well,

00:30:23   what does this do for us? - Right, but all

00:30:24   of the US money is added.

00:30:26   - Yes, and everything else, it'll be padded

00:30:28   by the fact that there's an increase.

00:30:30   But I guess what I'm saying is in the long run,

00:30:32   there's also the fact that I think Apple expects

00:30:35   in the long run, a reversion to the mean, right?

00:30:39   that like when the dollar gets strong,

00:30:42   at some point the dollar's gonna get less strong

00:30:45   and it'll all kind of come back around.

00:30:47   But in the short term, that's not the case.

00:30:50   And so yes, adding as little as it seems it is

00:30:55   to go up a couple of dollars,

00:30:57   the fact is if you go from five to seven,

00:31:00   it's a 40% increase.

00:31:01   So yeah, I mean, I think it will have

00:31:04   a substantive benefit.

00:31:07   how much of the services piece is Apple Music,

00:31:11   Apple One, Apple TV Plus and the rest versus

00:31:15   like the App Store and App Store advertising and all that.

00:31:18   Although Tim Cook, we may talk about advertising

00:31:20   a little bit later, but Tim Cook sort of said,

00:31:23   our ad business is very small.

00:31:25   It's very small compared to everybody else's ad business.

00:31:27   But anyway, that's a question too.

00:31:29   - They're getting bigger all the time though, ain't they?

00:31:31   - They are, they do seem to be.

00:31:33   Actually, one of the things they also blamed

00:31:35   services revenue shortfalls on was softness

00:31:38   in the advertising market and in the gaming market,

00:31:43   which is something that they've said a few times,

00:31:45   which it sounds like in the height of the pandemic,

00:31:50   there was a lot more gameplay and go figure these days,

00:31:54   there's less of it.

00:31:55   And that means there's less game revenue coming

00:31:58   into the app store from all of those games

00:32:00   and all of those in-app purchases.

00:32:01   And that hurts them too.

00:32:03   Ben Thompson makes the argument, which I like,

00:32:06   he was talking about this in regards to,

00:32:10   I think Facebook, no probably not for Google,

00:32:12   I think it was, that guy's a bunch of companies,

00:32:13   earn his season's time, you know.

00:32:15   And he was saying that, yeah, like it does seem like

00:32:18   there is a softness in the gaming market now

00:32:20   because people are not spending money

00:32:22   on in-app purchase gems when they're struggling

00:32:25   to pay their energy bills, right?

00:32:26   Like that's happening more.

00:32:27   But I will say, 'cause he makes the other point,

00:32:29   which I do think could be a part of it, right?

00:32:31   Like, there is less advertising spend happening

00:32:36   post-AppTrack and transparency in gaming

00:32:41   because it can't be as targeted as much,

00:32:44   which could have brought down the amount

00:32:46   of new acquiring customers in gaming,

00:32:48   which Apple would feel on their cuts, right?

00:32:52   You following what I'm saying, right?

00:32:54   - Yes, right.

00:32:54   - Because less people now are downloading new games

00:32:58   for the first time because they're not being advertised

00:33:01   to them, it would reduce the amount of gems and whatever

00:33:06   that bought, which Apple would also feel

00:33:08   if that was happening, which is an interesting thing

00:33:10   to come back around again on.

00:33:12   But the difference between Apple and Meta and Google

00:33:17   and all these other companies or whatever,

00:33:19   they're gonna be hit harder

00:33:22   'cause it's a bigger part of their revenue

00:33:23   than it is Apple's.

00:33:24   'Cause Apple has all the hardware.

00:33:26   - Yep. - So super interesting.

00:33:28   And I wanna see how that all shakes out

00:33:30   'cause this is the thing of like,

00:33:32   they're actually trying to understand the true impact

00:33:34   of either of these two things is too complicated.

00:33:37   Is it the economy?

00:33:38   Is it app tracking transparency and advertising stuff?

00:33:40   We actually don't know

00:33:41   'cause it's all happening at the same time.

00:33:43   So we can't really work it out right now.

00:33:46   - Yeah, there's a lot going on here,

00:33:49   but that's one of the things.

00:33:51   - Apple noted a substantial expected drop

00:33:53   in Mac revenue next quarter.

00:33:56   Now it is a tough compare, right?

00:33:59   - That's what they said.

00:34:01   That's what they said.

00:34:01   Also, we have to say that the Mac quarter,

00:34:05   this quarter was high.

00:34:07   And Apple said there were the three reasons why, right?

00:34:10   One is demand, but two is fulfilling all the demand

00:34:14   from last quarter where they didn't have Macs to sell people

00:34:17   and then three was filling the channel.

00:34:19   And if you remember, they basically had a factory showdown.

00:34:22   - Factory showdown.

00:34:24   You and you fight.

00:34:25   The winner gets to make Macs.

00:34:28   - Gets to make Macs.

00:34:29   That's right, and they both shot each other and they died.

00:34:32   So that took a while to fix,

00:34:34   and they didn't have Macs for a while.

00:34:37   See, seamless.

00:34:38   So they spent this quarter

00:34:41   and part of last quarter catching up.

00:34:43   And the point is the reason the Mac quarter was so great

00:34:44   is because they didn't just sell a lot of Macs in a quarter.

00:34:47   They didn't just have the MacBook Air,

00:34:49   which is their most popular computer,

00:34:51   and there was a new one of it that people liked,

00:34:54   but also they fulfilled all those orders

00:34:56   that were outstanding from last quarter

00:34:57   and made a bunch to fill the channels

00:34:59   so that people could walk into stores and buy them.

00:35:02   So they said, look, that Mac number is a little bit inflated

00:35:07   because of that.

00:35:08   And then yes, next quarter will be a tough compare

00:35:10   because they had the, what, the MacBook Pros

00:35:13   and stuff coming out last year.

00:35:14   And so it's not gonna be the same.

00:35:17   - It seemed like from what Luca made this statement,

00:35:20   and then also something that Tim said,

00:35:22   seemed to hint that there weren't gonna be any more Macs

00:35:25   new this year, right?

00:35:27   - Yeah, they said that, you know, something about retail,

00:35:29   and they said, you know, our product line is set

00:35:31   going into the holidays, which strongly implies

00:35:33   that there aren't gonna be any new Macs this year.

00:35:38   I don't think it's 100%.

00:35:40   Like, you know-- - No.

00:35:41   It's just, these two pieces could maybe suggest that,

00:35:44   but it could also mean it is set, we have plans.

00:35:47   You know, like, we don't really know what set means,

00:35:50   I suppose?

00:35:51   - And it could mean that we don't think the products

00:35:53   we're gonna, I mean, look, we're wish casting here

00:35:56   a little bit, 'cause I think the most likely scenario

00:35:58   is there are no new announcements until next year.

00:36:00   But you could say, well, yeah, but what we're gonna do

00:36:02   is a speed bump Mac mini and MacBook Pro.

00:36:04   These are not part of our holiday lineup per se, right?

00:36:08   They're nerdy Macs that are great, but like, they're not,

00:36:12   and they're filling existing parts of the ecosystem

00:36:15   and we're not spending a lot of marketing on them

00:36:17   and they're coming out in the next couple of weeks

00:36:19   so they will be there for the holiday season.

00:36:21   You can rationalize it a lot.

00:36:22   I think if you take it on its face, what they're saying is,

00:36:25   no more product announcements until next year.

00:36:28   - And also as expected, Apple cannot meet demand

00:36:32   of the pro iPhones at the moment.

00:36:34   They are struggling to meet demand.

00:36:36   - Yeah, I thought that was interesting

00:36:38   that they are trying to get in balance

00:36:41   and hope to get in balance this quarter,

00:36:42   but it's one of those things where the pro phones

00:36:44   have done really well.

00:36:45   Please note they did not say

00:36:46   that the non-pro phones were doing that well,

00:36:49   but that the pro phones were doing that well.

00:36:51   And again, not ideal, right?

00:36:54   You wanna fulfill everybody, if they want an iPhone,

00:36:57   the platonic ideal of Apple's production process is,

00:37:02   if you want it, we have it.

00:37:03   And that's all we have.

00:37:04   We have one for you,

00:37:06   and one for everyone else who wants one today,

00:37:08   and then we have none.

00:37:10   And then tomorrow we get a new shipment

00:37:11   and we sell every single one of those.

00:37:12   That's the dream.

00:37:14   And right now they're not there.

00:37:15   - Did they give any kind of, aside from the Mac thing,

00:37:21   Did they give any kind of hint towards the holiday quarter,

00:37:25   what they think it's gonna look like?

00:37:26   'Cause I know that they don't do forecasting,

00:37:28   but they have been making some statements, right,

00:37:31   in the past year or so, couple of years, I guess,

00:37:33   about like if they're, like with the Mac thing,

00:37:35   if they're expecting something good or bad,

00:37:38   did they give any kind of like,

00:37:39   we think the next quarter's gonna look good or bad

00:37:42   or anything like that?

00:37:43   - I don't think I have, okay, I mean,

00:37:49   I'll give you what he said, which is,

00:37:51   we're not providing revenue guidance.

00:37:54   We believe total company year over year

00:37:56   revenue performance will decelerate

00:37:58   during the December quarter

00:37:59   as compared to the September quarter.

00:38:01   And what that means is overall performance,

00:38:04   that means total revenue.

00:38:05   Total revenue was up 8% year over year.

00:38:09   It will be less than 8%.

00:38:11   Will it be above zero?

00:38:13   We didn't say.

00:38:15   My guess is if you were putting money down,

00:38:19   you'd say, yeah, 4%, 5% year over year,

00:38:23   which by the way, again, last holiday quarter

00:38:25   was the biggest holiday quarter for Apple ever.

00:38:27   But they're not saying that.

00:38:28   They're not saying they're gonna do that.

00:38:30   They're saying all they will say is it's gonna be less

00:38:33   than 8% year over year growth.

00:38:34   - I've forgotten, and 123 billion, I'd forgotten that.

00:38:38   My God, I'd, what?

00:38:40   What would they eat in that one?

00:38:43   Do you reckon they're gonna beat it?

00:38:45   you reckon they're gonna do like 125, 126,

00:38:48   something like that?

00:38:49   - I have learned not to underestimate Apple's capability

00:38:52   to break its own records.

00:38:53   So I would probably guess that it'll do,

00:38:56   you know, 4% year over year, 2% year over year,

00:38:59   something like that.

00:39:00   - I'm betting the iPhone's gonna do really well

00:39:02   for them this year.

00:39:03   - I think so, especially if they can get those pro models

00:39:07   out of the, you know, and into people's hands this quarter,

00:39:10   I think that they'll do pretty well.

00:39:11   And it is the iPhone quarter, but they have,

00:39:13   It's a tough compare, as they say.

00:39:16   Last quarter's growth was, for the Q3,

00:39:20   was 2% year over year, so.

00:39:21   And then this was eight,

00:39:23   and the previous quarters were like 11, nine, two, eight.

00:39:25   So saying it's gonna be two or four,

00:39:29   if it's above zero,

00:39:30   it will be their biggest quarter ever, regardless.

00:39:34   - 'Cause I'm thinking people are gonna treat this

00:39:36   like it was a new redesign.

00:39:37   That's where I'm kind of thinking.

00:39:40   - Could be.

00:39:41   - That's where I'm coming from.

00:39:42   Like the marketing really shows the dynamic island a lot

00:39:46   and I think that they might be betting on that as like,

00:39:48   hey, people will look at this and be like,

00:39:50   that's a brand new iPhone, you know?

00:39:53   And it sell like that would.

00:39:56   - Now, what they say about foreign exchange

00:39:58   is they think it will be nearly 10 percentage points

00:40:01   of negative year over year impact, right?

00:40:05   So what they're saying there is

00:40:06   in a neutral foreign exchange--

00:40:09   - Environment.

00:40:10   whatever number they hit in a neutral world,

00:40:12   it would be 10% higher than that of year over year growth.

00:40:16   So they're really setting the expectations there

00:40:18   that if they're up 2%, it would have been 12

00:40:22   if it weren't for foreign exchange headwinds,

00:40:23   or if they're down 2%, it would have been up eight.

00:40:26   And so they've laid that out there, we'll see what they say,

00:40:29   but they also cite the challenging compare

00:40:31   because they had the MacBook Pro with M1 last year,

00:40:36   which is why they made that decline substantially claim

00:40:38   about the Mac.

00:40:40   And they said services they expect to grow,

00:40:42   but again, they will continue to be impacted

00:40:45   by the macroeconomic environment,

00:40:46   which is all those things we talked about.

00:40:47   It's not just foreign exchange,

00:40:49   but soft digital advertising,

00:40:50   and also people not buying tokens for their game

00:40:54   because they're instead paying their heating bill.

00:40:56   Yeah.

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00:43:05   Money money money money money! Money? I want to talk about... you chapped... chapped... gave

00:43:14   the title for this chapter which I like. Yes. Apple does awful stuff. Yeah yeah

00:43:19   well we originally had two separate segments and I thought well I can lump

00:43:22   these together as stuff Apple does that we don't like right? I can do that. A

00:43:26   A little while ago we spoke about Apple adding some new ads to the App Store.

00:43:33   At the time we spoke about a new ad unit going to the Today page, which is the home page

00:43:41   of the App Store where it has Apple's editorial teams giving you recommendations.

00:43:47   If you go there now, usually the second block is an ad.

00:43:53   I didn't like this at the time and I really don't like it now because I have gotten used

00:43:59   to that homepage being a curated list of stuff that could be interesting for me to check

00:44:06   out but now...

00:44:09   Dragon Tail Hunter World is there.

00:44:14   Earlier it was Candy Crush for me.

00:44:17   And I don't feel like Apple should be selling their influence in this way.

00:44:27   I don't think that they really need to do that.

00:44:33   Well, look, there's a couple of things going on here, right?

00:44:39   There's the macro level and then there's the detail level for this.

00:44:42   So on the detail level, I think this is just bad technology, right? Like what they're really

00:44:49   doing is they've, and bad, I mean, it's everything, it's bad. It's bad technology, it's bad policy.

00:44:54   But on the detail level, I think the big objection is it's allowing advertisers of apps to now

00:45:03   enter into places where they're not relevant. They're like barging in. And for all we say

00:45:08   about ad personalization and ad tracking and all of those things, relevance is important

00:45:15   with ads. And if you don't have a lot of signals about who the person is, then the other signal

00:45:20   you have is where the ad is placed. So if you're on a kid's app, the signal you've got

00:45:28   is this is a kid's app, advertise kid stuff here because the person who's looking at this

00:45:33   is buying kids' apps.

00:45:35   And one of the issues that has come up here is

00:45:38   these apps are just barreling in like the Kool-Aid Man,

00:45:42   going like, "Oh yeah, kids, how about gambling ads?"

00:45:47   - Candy Crush.

00:45:49   - Yeah, right?

00:45:50   And that is, so that's a problem,

00:45:53   that part of the features of this ad unit

00:45:57   is as an advertiser,

00:45:59   you can basically press the Kool-Aid Man button

00:46:02   and say, I don't care, just put it everywhere.

00:46:05   And if you're an app developer or a user, I would say,

00:46:08   who is there, having a totally irrelevant thing

00:46:11   that also is probably, or has a strong possibility

00:46:15   of being something that's kind of unpleasant

00:46:17   and that is not related at all

00:46:19   to the experience that you want, that's bad, right?

00:46:22   Like that's bad.

00:46:23   The idea that, and people were using lots of examples

00:46:25   of like kid stuff with gambling ads.

00:46:27   - Can I just step in real quick

00:46:29   to add a little bit of context

00:46:30   'cause I didn't say it earlier

00:46:31   and we are moving into it.

00:46:32   There was also a second ad unit that I think we missed

00:46:35   or I didn't notice or didn't realize

00:46:37   potential implication of, which is in, you might also like.

00:46:42   So if you go into any app page, there's like a, you know,

00:46:46   if you like this, you might like this, right?

00:46:48   Which is, I don't know, it's like a good information thing

00:46:51   to have, like people that downloaded this app

00:46:53   probably also downloaded these other apps.

00:46:54   - Relevant results, right? Relevant results.

00:46:57   - And so in the area of relevant results,

00:46:59   you now have irrelevant results,

00:47:01   which is the first of these, is an ad.

00:47:04   - Yes, and it's a bad ad.

00:47:06   I mean, a lot of the criticism was not only is it an ad,

00:47:09   but it's a bad ad because this is where you get,

00:47:12   in the gambling recovery app, you get ads for gambling,

00:47:16   or you did, Apple paused this program.

00:47:18   We'll just cut to the result of this, at least for now,

00:47:20   as they said, they paused this program.

00:47:22   But like, in the gambling,

00:47:23   trying to fight gambling addiction, there are gambling ads.

00:47:27   In podcast apps, there are gambling ads,

00:47:30   and programming apps that are gambling ads.

00:47:31   They're everywhere.

00:47:32   - And the reason there are gambling ads,

00:47:34   so like, and when we say gambling,

00:47:36   these are actual like gambling companies,

00:47:39   like sports betting companies,

00:47:41   and also games that feature these types of mechanics,

00:47:46   like casino games for kids, and stuff like that.

00:47:48   And the reason that these apps are so prolific

00:47:53   is that you can choose as an advertiser,

00:47:56   you can say, I want it to be targeted,

00:47:58   or just like just scattershot put me everywhere.

00:48:00   - That's the Kool-Aid man button.

00:48:01   - Yeah, the Kool-Aid man button.

00:48:03   And these kinds of where it's this kind of gambling,

00:48:06   they have the most money to play with.

00:48:08   They're gambling on it, but they have the most money

00:48:10   'cause they make the most money.

00:48:11   And so they just put their ads everywhere.

00:48:14   - Yeah, right.

00:48:15   So that is the, so new ad units,

00:48:18   we can talk about that is the other issue here,

00:48:19   but like we can talk about Apple's ad unit strategy

00:48:22   in the app store, but this one in particular,

00:48:25   where it's like now, 'cause remember,

00:48:28   Apple already has a policy where like app developers

00:48:31   are very limited in their communication with their customers

00:48:34   because Apple considers them Apple's customers.

00:48:37   And so, you know, the developers app page

00:48:41   is kind of important, right?

00:48:43   It is the storefront that they're allotted by Apple.

00:48:47   And now this is an extra piece of junk on there

00:48:51   and it's not even relevant.

00:48:52   I think that's the part that like, I don't love,

00:48:56   I'm trying to parse this out here.

00:48:57   I don't love ads in the app store at all, honestly.

00:49:00   And that's the separate issue.

00:49:02   But like, if you're gonna do it,

00:49:04   I feel like you gotta do it right.

00:49:07   And that means you gotta have relevant ads.

00:49:10   Or you've got to have policies that,

00:49:12   that if some apps are allowed to push the Kool-Aid Man button

00:49:16   some apps in some categories can't,

00:49:19   or if they do push it, it's barred from certain areas.

00:49:23   But Apple seems to have just opened the doors wide and said,

00:49:27   "Mr. Kool-Aid man, please walk through this door."

00:49:30   And Kool-Aid man said, "Oh yeah,

00:49:32   'cause that's all he ever says."

00:49:34   And we ended up where we are.

00:49:38   So that, I mean like there's nuance here,

00:49:40   which is could this ad unit have been done better?

00:49:44   And the answer is absolutely yes.

00:49:46   And then there's the larger issue,

00:49:49   which is ads in the App Store.

00:49:52   And the problem with me giving a nuanced take about this

00:49:57   is that somebody who wants to respond will say,

00:50:00   "Yeah, but you don't want ads in the App Store at all."

00:50:03   And my answer to that is, "Hmm, kinda yes."

00:50:05   - I don't want ads in the App Store.

00:50:07   I don't think ads need to be in the App Store.

00:50:08   I just don't think it needs to happen.

00:50:10   I really don't.

00:50:11   I don't think it needs to happen.

00:50:12   - Well, I agree.

00:50:13   I agree.

00:50:13   Here's the thing.

00:50:14   Apple is having its cake and eating it too here.

00:50:18   Apple has made the App Store a place that everybody has to go on iOS and iPadOS. It's

00:50:23   mandatory. It's the only one. They fought very hard to say, "Oh no, we need this experience

00:50:28   to be curated and whatever." But what they're also doing is they're building a platform

00:50:32   where they know everything that you've bought and everything that you've looked at. But

00:50:35   it's not tracking because it's Apple who knows.

00:50:38   That's first party data, Jason. Didn't you know?

00:50:40   Yes, it's first party data. It's not tracking if it's first party data. Everybody has to

00:50:45   to be there, there's no alternative.

00:50:47   And we've argued here on many occasions

00:50:50   about the positive aspects of Apple's policies

00:50:54   and good things about the App Store.

00:50:55   But Apple has built this system

00:50:58   that everybody has to be a part of

00:51:00   and that Apple has all the data of,

00:51:02   and then has said, "And what we're gonna do

00:51:04   "is we're gonna put ads in it too."

00:51:06   - And then also shut down the ability

00:51:09   for other people to do it, right,

00:51:10   with app tracking transparency.

00:51:12   - Yes, yeah.

00:51:12   So all of that is going on here.

00:51:14   And I think that's the challenge because what I always said, also forgive me, but like I

00:51:20   used to be an editorial person at a media company and my last few years where I was

00:51:25   very unhappy and didn't like my job, most of what I did was have fights with salespeople

00:51:35   who were trying to bring some other piece of garbage onto our website in order to generate

00:51:41   incremental revenue.

00:51:43   And one of the challenges with this,

00:51:47   and this brings me back to that.

00:51:49   And the reason is, what you want is somebody

00:51:53   in a position of leadership who is looking

00:51:55   at the big picture.

00:51:57   Because if a salesperson, if an ad person comes to you

00:52:02   and says, "I can bring you more money,"

00:52:05   you as a business that's a profit-making entity

00:52:08   are gonna say, great, more money is great.

00:52:13   And you need a leader who says,

00:52:16   what does this do to our product to get this money?

00:52:20   Does it make our product better?

00:52:22   Does it make our product worse?

00:52:24   Does it make our partners angry?

00:52:26   Does it make our partners happy?

00:52:28   You need somebody who is at that level.

00:52:30   Now, I had a lot of presidents and CEOs at my former job

00:52:35   who all but one of them came up through the sales side.

00:52:39   And I would say the good ones knew that the job

00:52:42   of being the boss was not a sales job.

00:52:45   And the bad ones never made that connection.

00:52:49   And I say all this to say,

00:52:52   a leader needs to look at possible new revenue and say,

00:52:57   we can't do that, it hurts our product too much, right?

00:53:02   A leader needs to say, this is too far, it's not worth it.

00:53:07   A bad leader says, I don't care how bad it makes our product

00:53:14   just give me the money.

00:53:16   And I spent the last few years of my career

00:53:18   in corporate media trying to convince my leaders

00:53:23   that the asinine things that were being proposed

00:53:26   by the sales staff made our website terrible

00:53:29   and that the true value of our company was the product

00:53:34   and the readers who cared about the product,

00:53:38   not our ad revenue. (laughs)

00:53:41   Ad revenue is a spinoff of the product.

00:53:44   It's not the product.

00:53:45   And so to wrap this up, what I'll say is,

00:53:49   it sure feels like there's nobody home at Apple

00:53:56   who is a leader in the app store

00:53:59   to say this degrades our product.

00:54:03   - Who has the power to at least, right?

00:54:06   - Well, yeah, no, I am sure there are people there

00:54:08   who are saying this is outrageous.

00:54:09   I mean, in fact, I know that, I'll just put it this way.

00:54:14   I know there are people at Apple who think this is outrageous

00:54:17   and who said so, how about that?

00:54:20   But whoever's in charge,

00:54:22   like, I don't know if the ad guy is just in charge

00:54:25   And he's been, 'cause they have a guy

00:54:27   who's like in charge of ads at Apple now.

00:54:28   He's like their ad maver.

00:54:30   - We were talking about him a while ago, right?

00:54:31   When he grew up by a thousand million percent

00:54:34   or whatever it was.

00:54:35   Yeah, that was a Mark Gumm and report.

00:54:37   - Right, exactly.

00:54:38   And at the time I was like, oh boy, okay,

00:54:39   what does that mean?

00:54:40   But here's the problem.

00:54:41   I don't know whether that guy just gets to put ads

00:54:43   wherever he wants and nobody cares.

00:54:45   Or whoever is enabling that guy doesn't care

00:54:48   or doesn't think it's a problem.

00:54:50   But personally, given that there's no alternative

00:54:55   alternative to the App Store, I hate the whole thing and I think the whole thing is rotten.

00:55:00   And the reason it started as being rotten is, remember where this started, which is,

00:55:05   "Oh, you've got Overcast, but I'm Spotify." And Apple says, "Guess what? Everybody who's

00:55:14   searching for Overcast, we're going to show an ad for Spotify." And Marco, the author

00:55:21   of Overcast goes, "Well, no, I don't want to." And Apple's like, "Well, then you gotta

00:55:25   outbid Spotify for your own product name." And who wins in that scenario? Apple wins.

00:55:31   Because you are now, because what's happening is Apple is creating this grand system where

00:55:36   they take a percentage from all transactions in the store and some places outside of it,

00:55:43   it turns out. And then what they do next is they come back to you and they say, "Of the

00:55:48   percentage that we allowed you to keep,

00:55:50   you now need to fund us even further with ads

00:55:54   so that you can do better.

00:55:55   And Apple sells it as being this great opportunity

00:55:58   for app developers to see new, reach new audiences.

00:56:02   But it's like Apple's algorithms could be good

00:56:04   and could do that.

00:56:05   They could surface apps that generate sales,

00:56:07   that generate more money for Apple,

00:56:09   but they've decided to weaponize advertising

00:56:11   as another way to extract revenue from app developers.

00:56:15   And this is so far down the slope from there,

00:56:19   but I think it is a core rot

00:56:22   at the center of Apple's App Store

00:56:25   that I would feel, again,

00:56:27   I would feel a little differently if there were alternatives

00:56:30   because then if Apple ruined the App Store,

00:56:33   everybody could go somewhere else,

00:56:34   but they can never go anywhere else.

00:56:38   They are stuck.

00:56:39   Apple has them under their complete control

00:56:42   and whoever is in charge of advertising

00:56:45   looks at it and goes, well,

00:56:46   they're not gonna tell me to stop

00:56:47   and they've got nowhere to go.

00:56:49   So I'm gonna make this as gross as possible.

00:56:51   That's what's happening.

00:56:52   - You know what they'll call that internally?

00:56:54   That's a competitive advantage, right?

00:56:56   That's their competitive advantage.

00:56:58   - Sure, sure.

00:56:58   And that's why, and I know that people,

00:57:00   probably there's some people out there like,

00:57:01   oh, editor types are so naive.

00:57:04   It's like, I'm a content person,

00:57:05   but I'm also, I would like to think,

00:57:07   I'm somebody who thinks about the bigger product.

00:57:10   And in all of my time at IDG,

00:57:14   What I found shocking was the bad leadership at times,

00:57:18   and I also had good leadership, I will say,

00:57:21   but the bad leadership at times,

00:57:23   where it felt like the CEO or president

00:57:26   didn't care about the product, I cared about the product.

00:57:30   And the only thing I could do was fight with my boss

00:57:33   about the quality of the product versus revenue.

00:57:36   And they were not there.

00:57:39   And dying media companies,

00:57:42   I get the pressure that they're under to hit their numbers.

00:57:45   IDG was very much, you know, you can do whatever you want

00:57:47   as long as you give us your money at the end of the year.

00:57:49   That was the way they worked.

00:57:51   But this is Apple, right?

00:57:53   Like, and if we wanna say, well, that's what Apple is now.

00:57:57   Apple doesn't care about product quality.

00:57:59   They care about money.

00:58:01   Okay, but like somebody at Apple

00:58:04   should probably look at this and say,

00:58:06   "Oh, this is too far.

00:58:09   "This is against our values."

00:58:11   And again, Apple takes great pride.

00:58:13   It has a huge ego about how they make the world

00:58:17   a better place.

00:58:18   We just heard, as we do every quarter,

00:58:19   Tim Cook talk about their vision for the future

00:58:22   and helping communities that are disadvantaged

00:58:26   and going green and all of these things.

00:58:28   They talk about Apple making the world a better place.

00:58:33   They talk about Apple caring about this stuff.

00:58:35   Only Apple can do this.

00:58:37   But actions matter.

00:58:39   And the actions on this front are not the actions

00:58:43   of a company that cares about that stuff.

00:58:44   They're the actions of a company

00:58:46   that cares about product quality

00:58:48   less than they care about incremental revenue.

00:58:50   Incremental by the way,

00:58:51   because how much money is this really throwing

00:58:54   to the bottom line versus the stuff that matters?

00:58:58   And I would argue it's probably not very much.

00:59:01   And so they're junking up their product and for what?

00:59:04   Like if the ad stream was like more than iPhone revenue,

00:59:07   we'd be like, okay,

00:59:08   - It's all for Wall Street, right?

00:59:10   Like they just need to pump the services revenues

00:59:12   so that the markets don't think that they're out of ideas.

00:59:16   - That's true, and I'm still not convinced,

00:59:18   as Tim Cook said-- - But I don't think

00:59:18   that's a good thing to do,

00:59:19   but like I think it's part of the reason they do it.

00:59:21   - But as Tim Cook said, their ad business compared to,

00:59:25   I think essentially Facebook and Google, is very small.

00:59:28   And he's right about that.

00:59:29   Maybe they dream of it being bigger,

00:59:31   but like in the end, is this the button you push?

00:59:34   Is this your choice about the lever that you can pull

00:59:37   in order to boost your services revenue.

00:59:41   - Speaking of boosting.

00:59:42   - Yeah.

00:59:43   - There's another place they wanna make some money from

00:59:46   as other people's ads.

00:59:49   So Apple made a couple of changes

00:59:50   to the App Store guidelines.

00:59:51   One was banning NFTs from being able to unlock

00:59:56   experiences or content within applications.

00:59:58   NFTs, QR codes. - 'Cause that was happening.

01:00:00   - Any way that somebody could authenticate

01:00:05   to get some kind of digital good,

01:00:07   they ban that,

01:00:09   but straight up ban that. - Which I,

01:00:11   on one level I understand it because it's them saying,

01:00:14   I think people are getting around the in-app purchase system

01:00:19   by offering these other kind of confusing,

01:00:21   but ultimately other paths to unlock features in their apps.

01:00:25   But the problem is it runs into all of those

01:00:28   like reader apps and stuff where it's like,

01:00:30   yeah, but I can go buy Netflix on the outside

01:00:33   and watch it on the inside.

01:00:34   And it's like, well, yes, but not these, not these.

01:00:36   - Yeah, oh, not NFT readers, no, no, no, no.

01:00:38   But the thing that I think is the most egregious

01:00:41   is that, so say you're Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,

01:00:45   inside of these applications,

01:00:46   you as a user can pay to boost your posts.

01:00:50   So it will get more impressions,

01:00:51   more people will see it, and it's a sponsored thing

01:00:54   and ad thing, that kind of thing.

01:00:56   Apple has now said, any boosting that occurs

01:00:59   within the social media app,

01:01:02   so in the Twitter app, in the Instagram app,

01:01:04   Apple now wants, well, Apple now requires

01:01:07   that these transactions occur through

01:01:11   the in-app purchase model and they want their 30% for it.

01:01:14   - So I'm less offended by this one than the other one,

01:01:18   honestly, because this one, I mean, it's dumb,

01:01:21   but this one is basically like, well,

01:01:24   if you're in the, 'cause it's if you're in the app.

01:01:26   So if there's like a Twitter advertising app

01:01:29   and then there's the Twitter app

01:01:30   and you make posts over in the Twitter app

01:01:33   and then you go to the Twitter advertising app

01:01:35   and you boost the post.

01:01:37   I think that's allowed.

01:01:38   - It is allowed, but I just don't understand

01:01:41   what the difference is again.

01:01:43   Like they're just drawing these lines,

01:01:45   it's gerrymandering, right?

01:01:46   Like they're just like,

01:01:47   oh, you can do it here and it's fine

01:01:49   and you can use a credit card, but like, oh, no, no, no.

01:01:51   - This feels like somebody saw something

01:01:53   that they were getting away with

01:01:55   and they're like, well, we'll show them

01:01:56   and they made this new rule

01:01:58   because somebody was getting away with extra revenue

01:02:03   within like, "Hey, you made a social media post.

01:02:05   Would you like more people to see it?"

01:02:06   Right, like that's the thing about Facebook

01:02:07   that people don't remember.

01:02:08   And by the way, Facebook is evil for doing stuff like this.

01:02:12   Facebook encouraged everybody to create like pages

01:02:14   for their businesses and their personal stuff

01:02:16   and all of that.

01:02:17   And it used to be that your pages,

01:02:18   you posted a thing on a page

01:02:19   and everybody who followed your page saw it.

01:02:21   And the Facebook was like,

01:02:22   in a move very similar to Apple's moves in this space,

01:02:26   Facebook was like, "Yeah, now only 10% of the people

01:02:31   who follow your page are gonna see that unless you pay us.

01:02:34   That was the shift that they made.

01:02:35   - That was terrible.

01:02:37   - So this is the next part of that,

01:02:38   which is the next part of the grift is now pay us.

01:02:41   Just press this button and pay us,

01:02:43   and then everybody will see your post.

01:02:44   That's how we're gonna do it.

01:02:45   - It beats the algorithm basically, right?

01:02:48   Like their algorithm means that your stuff's

01:02:52   not gonna get shown to everyone,

01:02:53   so this way you circumvent the algorithm.

01:02:55   - Right, subscribe and click that bell icon, yeah.

01:02:58   - I wanna read two statements.

01:03:00   This is the first is from a meta spokesperson.

01:03:02   Apple continues to evolve its policies

01:03:04   to grow their own business while undercutting others

01:03:07   in the digital economy.

01:03:08   Apple previously said it didn't take a share

01:03:11   of developer advertising revenue

01:03:12   and now apparently changed its mind.

01:03:15   Apple spokesperson.

01:03:16   For many years now, the App Store guidelines

01:03:18   have been clear that the sale of digital goods and services

01:03:21   within an app must use in-app purchase.

01:03:23   Boosting, which allows an individual organization

01:03:26   to pay to increase the reach of a postal profile

01:03:28   is a digital service. So of course in-app purchase is required, emphasis mine. This

01:03:34   has always been, and I'll do it again, this has always been the case. And there are many

01:03:38   examples of apps that do it successfully. As you can tell, Apple's statement rubs me

01:03:43   the wrong way. Because I just think there are multiple issues with it, right? Where

01:03:46   it's like, again, what we were just saying, like they're saying, oh, it must have in-app

01:03:51   purchase. But if you use the meta ad manager to do the same thing, they don't require it

01:03:56   So that doesn't make any sense based on this rule.

01:03:58   And there's always this, this always been the case.

01:04:01   This has always been the case, but here you go.

01:04:02   We've just changed the rules.

01:04:04   So like, it obviously hasn't always been the case

01:04:07   because otherwise this wouldn't have been able to occur.

01:04:09   Would it?

01:04:10   - Which is clarifying what was always the case.

01:04:12   Now it's clear that it's still the case.

01:04:14   - This just frustrates me so much this one.

01:04:17   Like, cause it's pointless.

01:04:18   Why do they need to do this?

01:04:20   - And several people pointed out,

01:04:23   It is breathtaking to think that with all of the conversations that everybody's having

01:04:30   about tech companies overreaching, including Apple, that they would still be going down

01:04:37   this path.

01:04:38   And you know, I think it's only fair when we parse the words and behavior of Apple in

01:04:43   order to guess at product stuff that's going on.

01:04:46   I think we need to be fair and do it for other things.

01:04:50   I parse this behavior as Apple not being concerned

01:04:55   about this stuff hurting them.

01:05:01   - Yeah, they think they can just breeze right past it.

01:05:04   - I think they think that they're bulletproof

01:05:06   or that if a bullet is coming for them,

01:05:09   it's coming for them regardless.

01:05:10   And so they're just gonna continue on their path

01:05:12   and not back down until they're forced to.

01:05:15   I think they seem to not have a view

01:05:19   that every log on the fire, right?

01:05:22   Like makes it worse.

01:05:23   That perhaps they ought to be steering away

01:05:26   from stuff like this.

01:05:27   But again, my other view is what I said earlier

01:05:31   about the ad thing, which is,

01:05:33   it feels like a lack of leadership to me.

01:05:36   Either the leadership is very misguided

01:05:39   about what Apple should be doing strategically

01:05:41   and just doesn't care,

01:05:42   or the people in positions of leadership

01:05:45   are not paying attention to this stuff

01:05:48   and think it won't.

01:05:50   It's like they're either endorsing it

01:05:51   or they're not paying attention.

01:05:53   But either way, it's criminal as a leader of a company

01:05:58   to do this kind of thing,

01:05:59   because they're putting their company at risk

01:06:02   and they're also separately making those revenue decisions

01:06:05   that I think.

01:06:05   I think in both of these cases in the end,

01:06:07   it is about money and Apple not wanting

01:06:08   to leave every dollar on the table,

01:06:10   which I get why they are there culturally.

01:06:12   I get why, you know,

01:06:13   I think that there is strength in that on one perspective,

01:06:16   but on another perspective,

01:06:17   I think it goes back to,

01:06:18   and I know I've said this before,

01:06:20   a fundamental issue with the way Steve Jobs

01:06:23   thought of Apple,

01:06:24   which is that all value related to Apple

01:06:26   is created by Apple and should belong to Apple.

01:06:29   And every bit of value that's in any way related

01:06:33   to Apple's products and platforms

01:06:35   that doesn't go to Apple is theft.

01:06:37   That is fundamentally what Steve Jobs thought.

01:06:41   I can tell you stories,

01:06:43   some of which I probably can't tell you,

01:06:45   about things that he said.

01:06:46   I know for a fact that Steve Jobs never forgave Macworld

01:06:50   for being named Macworld without paying Apple

01:06:53   for the license to Mac as a name, right?

01:06:56   And he never forgave Macworld Expo

01:06:58   for building a conference business

01:07:01   on the backs of Apple's greatness.

01:07:03   And when the knives finally came out for Macworld Expo,

01:07:06   it was made very clear to everybody

01:07:08   that that was because Apple didn't want

01:07:11   the business relationship to continue

01:07:13   because why should anybody do that?

01:07:16   when it's our greatness and it's our money.

01:07:18   And the App Store has always felt exactly the same way.

01:07:22   Now, Steve Jobs' attitude really served Apple well

01:07:25   when Apple was about to go bankrupt.

01:07:27   But Apple is now one of the most popular

01:07:28   or one of the most successful companies

01:07:30   and one of the most profitable companies

01:07:31   and has one of the biggest cash hordes in the world.

01:07:35   And they still act like this.

01:07:36   And now they're just,

01:07:37   I don't even know what metaphor to use here

01:07:41   other than to say it's unseemly.

01:07:44   Like they don't need to play this level of hardball,

01:07:48   but their attitude is everybody else is a potential enemy.

01:07:51   They're getting away with theft and we gotta lock it down.

01:07:56   And on the side, we're also gonna add a bunch of ads in

01:08:00   'cause we get more money that way.

01:08:02   And it's this whole enterprise that has been set up

01:08:06   to do revenue generation.

01:08:08   And either nobody understands how corrosive it is to Apple

01:08:12   and Apple's products and Apple's developers

01:08:15   and Apple's customers,

01:08:16   or the scariest part is nobody cares.

01:08:20   - Just disappoints me.

01:08:23   I love this company.

01:08:24   I have for the majority of my life.

01:08:27   I love the products that they make.

01:08:28   I love what they stand for.

01:08:30   This stuff upsets me.

01:08:34   It makes me mad because I feel like they're squandering

01:08:39   what makes them so good sometimes.

01:08:40   and I don't really know what for.

01:08:44   Other companies I would be more willing to forgive,

01:08:47   but we just spoke about how much money

01:08:49   they made in their hardware.

01:08:51   And I just don't, you know, I don't understand it.

01:08:54   You know, like social media companies,

01:08:57   I'm more willing to forgive these kinds of ad stuff for,

01:08:59   or whatever.

01:09:00   Like, you know, we're an ad supported company by and large.

01:09:03   We spend a lot of time trying to make sure

01:09:05   our advertising is the best that it can be

01:09:07   and is as relevant as possible.

01:09:09   and we work with advertisers that we like

01:09:11   and we turn down a lot that we don't,

01:09:13   blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:09:13   I don't have a problem with ads.

01:09:15   I have a problem with the way that Apple goes about it.

01:09:19   Like they could do it so much better

01:09:21   and they could just leave other companies alone.

01:09:23   I don't know why they need to do what they do.

01:09:27   I don't know why they feel like they need to reach inside

01:09:30   of the pockets of every single company

01:09:31   that they possibly can to extract 30% of the revenue.

01:09:35   So like, you know, you talk about like,

01:09:36   oh, we made this incredible economy

01:09:38   for all these developers and for us.

01:09:41   And I kind of just don't,

01:09:43   it just doesn't make sense to me.

01:09:45   - Yeah, well, it's, I mean, Apple,

01:09:47   having been very close up close to Apple for a long time,

01:09:52   I will say, I don't always appreciate Apple as a company.

01:09:55   I think there have always been great people

01:09:57   who work at Apple.

01:09:58   I think Apple's philosophy when it's going well,

01:10:01   especially they have made great products that I love

01:10:05   and that lots of people who've been using these products

01:10:07   for in some cases decades,

01:10:09   and in some cases only a few years, love.

01:10:12   The company itself has always been more complex than that,

01:10:15   sometimes for good, sometimes for ill.

01:10:19   Obviously as a journalist who works with Apple,

01:10:21   I've seen periods where they were the worst.

01:10:25   And a company like Microsoft was amazing and great.

01:10:31   Like they're not always connected to the products they make.

01:10:33   And so, when, like I have always loved Apple's products,

01:10:38   the company, you know, it's complex, it's complicated.

01:10:45   How about that?

01:10:46   And right now in this area,

01:10:49   I feel like they've completely lost their way.

01:10:52   But then again, somebody like those sales guys

01:10:54   I used to fight with who say, "No, no, no,

01:10:57   we gotta bring in the revenue."

01:10:59   It's like, it's different if the company's about

01:11:01   to go out of business than when they just need

01:11:03   another extra billion on the pile of hundred billion dollars that they brought in, right?

01:11:09   It's different and I, you can't tell me that it's not. You can't tell me that it's not

01:11:13   when a company is scraping to survive versus when a company is padding its already enormous

01:11:18   earnings at the cost of its users and its developers and the quality of its products.

01:11:23   You just can't. It's not the same.

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01:13:10   I would like to talk about Stage Manager.

01:13:12   Okay.

01:13:13   On the Mac.

01:13:14   Ah, yes. Okay. Great.

01:13:16   Because I've had my first experiences of it over the last week. And I was excited about

01:13:22   I've been talking about it the whole time.

01:13:24   I've been really excited about it.

01:13:25   I was like, I think stage manager might be for me.

01:13:28   I will say overall, I still believe that to be true.

01:13:34   Maybe I'm the only fan of stage manager on the Mac,

01:13:37   at least I think in maybe our circles.

01:13:40   It is flawed.

01:13:41   In some areas, I'm deeply flawed.

01:13:43   But the overall idea of it really works for me.

01:13:47   I want to talk you through what I'm thinking about.

01:13:49   So some things I really missed.

01:13:52   keyboard shortcuts, trackpad gestures,

01:13:54   as you mentioned on last week's episode.

01:13:57   I completely agree with you.

01:13:58   Completely, I miss them.

01:14:00   I'm finding myself swiping on my trackpad to switch spaces.

01:14:03   Nothing's happening, right?

01:14:05   Better Touch Tool,

01:14:08   and it seems to be adding some stuff for this.

01:14:11   What is the other app that the Better Touch Tool

01:14:14   developer makes?

01:14:15   Did I make another one?

01:14:17   - Oh, I don't know. - It's Better Touch Tool,

01:14:18   and anyway.

01:14:20   They're like kind of making a hacky way around it

01:14:23   of like assigning a swipe to an app that's in a stage.

01:14:27   So it would move between them.

01:14:28   It's kind of interesting.

01:14:29   I might play around with this, I'm not sure,

01:14:31   but Apple should definitely add keyboard shortcuts

01:14:35   and trackpad gestures to stage manager on the Mac.

01:14:39   Where, you know, it is wild to me

01:14:41   that iPadOS actually has more of them.

01:14:43   - More keyboard shortcuts, especially, it is wild.

01:14:46   Yeah, you know, that's, you, I mentioned this in my review,

01:14:49   but it's absolutely my frustration

01:14:51   and the things that they need to fix

01:14:52   at the top of my agenda are getting around.

01:14:55   I mean, it's like, yeah, keyboard shortcuts, gestures,

01:14:59   being able to customize that stuff,

01:15:01   being able to automate maybe some of that stuff,

01:15:03   get, you know, give it a shortcuts interface or something.

01:15:06   It's just, it is baffling that the iPad has that stuff

01:15:08   and the Mac doesn't.

01:15:09   And that's at the heart of my problem

01:15:11   with Stage Manager on the Mac right now

01:15:13   is that I don't feel like I can control it

01:15:16   like I would want to in order to use it effectively.

01:15:19   - There should be a shortcut of some description

01:15:24   to open an app or window

01:15:27   and have it remain in the current stage.

01:15:31   There's an awful lot of times like I click an app,

01:15:33   it just opens a new stage every single time, right?

01:15:35   I wanna be able to easily open something new

01:15:40   and have it appear in the stage that I'm in.

01:15:43   Like from the dock, for example, right?

01:15:45   I would love the ability to shift click on an app in the dock and it open in my current

01:15:50   stage.

01:15:52   The place where this is worse is finder.

01:15:54   So you're in a stage, you want to get a file, you click on the finder icon on the dock and

01:16:01   it takes you to a new stage and all that stage has in it is one finder window.

01:16:06   That is bad because usually when I'm opening finder I want a document to refer to something

01:16:11   or to open in or to drag into an app that I'm already using.

01:16:15   So I would love to be able to shift click

01:16:19   on the Finder icon in my dock

01:16:22   and open the Finder window right there.

01:16:24   That one feels really simple to me,

01:16:26   irrespective of any other kind of options,

01:16:29   that feels like an option that should 100% exist.

01:16:32   Because on the iPad, you could just drag an app

01:16:34   into the current stage from the dock.

01:16:37   Nothing like this exists on macOS.

01:16:40   But then there's this like, there are like these weird edge cases where like, in some

01:16:45   ways you can do this.

01:16:46   So this is where it gets even weirder.

01:16:49   So stick with me here.

01:16:51   You've got a stage and it has two Safari windows in it, right?

01:16:57   If you're in another stage, maybe you've got the notes app in it and you would like to

01:17:01   bring in one of those Safari windows.

01:17:03   What you do is you go over to the sidebar, what is it called?

01:17:07   The strip, right?

01:17:08   Where all the apps are.

01:17:09   If you click on the Safari icon, it opens up a separate view where it separates those two windows from each other, still in the strip.

01:17:21   It's like you go another level into the strip.

01:17:25   And then you can drag one window, one of these Safari windows that is separated, into your current stage.

01:17:31   Great, right? It's a good way to separate stuff out.

01:17:35   But if a pile within the strip has multiple apps in it, let's imagine it's Todoist and

01:17:48   Apple Mail, you can't do this. If you click on the icons, it gets rid of everything else

01:17:56   but keeps the grouping together so it doesn't separate them so you can drag one of those

01:17:59   apps in. What you can do is shift click on the pile in the strip and it will bring in

01:18:06   one of those apps but the one that is actually the foreground app. So if you want the second

01:18:12   app you now bring it in two of them. I don't understand why this shift clicking exists

01:18:17   at all if it only does that one thing. I don't know why if I click on the icons why doesn't

01:18:23   it separate all of the apps? Why does it only do this for windows? So I could be in a stage

01:18:29   and be like, oh, I would love it

01:18:30   if I could actually have Notes in here.

01:18:31   Notes is currently in with these other two applications.

01:18:35   Let me just click on the icons and then I can drag that,

01:18:38   but it doesn't do that.

01:18:40   - Or if there's something you could do,

01:18:41   I keep thinking about,

01:18:43   and maybe they need to rethink

01:18:44   all of their keyboard shortcuts,

01:18:45   but yeah, Option + Click on Notes in the Dock

01:18:48   and it brings it in, or Shift + Click on Notes in the Dock

01:18:49   and it brings it in, or something like that.

01:18:51   They just don't have that.

01:18:52   They just don't have it.

01:18:54   - Or when you do that icon clicking,

01:18:55   it separates them and then you can just drag stuff.

01:18:57   I don't know why it doesn't do that.

01:19:00   Something I found out today,

01:19:01   Stage Manager does not persist after a restart.

01:19:03   I had to restart my Mac and Stage Manager came back

01:19:08   but all of my apps were in single stages on their own again.

01:19:12   It's like, well, that doesn't make any sense.

01:19:13   Spaces doesn't do this.

01:19:15   Like Spaces remembers, Stage Manager did not remember.

01:19:18   So every time you will restart,

01:19:19   now luckily I don't do that in my MacBook very much,

01:19:22   but I had to, something was going weird with my computer

01:19:25   so I did a restart and it fixed it.

01:19:27   but that meant that I had to rebuild kind of my stages

01:19:29   the way that I wanted.

01:19:31   And the window placement is not remembered either.

01:19:34   So I had to do all that.

01:19:36   On a secondary note, it seems like now,

01:19:39   when I plug my studio display in after a restart,

01:19:43   I have to authenticate it.

01:19:45   I have to unlock my Mac first

01:19:48   before my studio display will work.

01:19:50   It says on my Mac screen, unlock Mac to use accessories.

01:19:54   Now, I'm just going to say Apple my studio display is not an accessory.

01:19:59   It's my display.

01:20:00   So now if you restart your Mac, you have to authenticate your Mac before your display will work.

01:20:05   If you've been wondering why your display isn't working, that might be why.

01:20:08   This is on Ventura.

01:20:11   The animation for switching between stages is maybe a bit much.

01:20:16   Like, I think I would like something that's a little less aggressive than this

01:20:23   because I have to see the animation. I've always liked the spaces animation. It's very

01:20:27   quick. This is a little slower than I'd want maybe. I would also like, when we're talking

01:20:33   about visual stuff, I wouldn't mind it if the strip was just app icons. I don't need

01:20:39   the windows. I know then it's kind of just like the dock, but whatever, leave me alone.

01:20:47   Overall I would say I really like this way of arranging windows on the Mac in general.

01:20:54   I find it easier to have five stages than having five spaces.

01:20:58   So I tried this for a while.

01:20:59   I've always used two spaces.

01:21:01   I have one where I have Safari and when I'm on recording or whatever where I might have

01:21:07   other recording things and then another space where all my other apps are and it was loads

01:21:11   of apps all layered on top of each other.

01:21:14   And I tried once splitting it out into a bunch of spaces that were like, this is where communication

01:21:21   is, this is where task management is, like this is where, like, but then I had five spaces.

01:21:25   And if I wanted, if I was on space one, and I wanted to go to space four, and I would

01:21:29   just naturally swipe, I'm like swiping forever.

01:21:31   And I hated that.

01:21:33   What I like about stage manager is those like stages, which are effectively spaces, right,

01:21:39   like just like different desktops.

01:21:41   They're just all there visually.

01:21:43   And I've come to learn that I think I am like a visual person when it comes to arranging

01:21:48   my windows.

01:21:49   It's like similarly, I like to have all my apps open and I can kind of see them peeking

01:21:54   around each other and I can click around.

01:21:56   And I know I can get there by using Alfred or Spotlight, which I do.

01:22:00   And I also sometimes will use Command-Tab and sometimes I use the dock.

01:22:05   But I also really like to just have everything visually available to me.

01:22:09   And so Stage Manager does that.

01:22:11   I can go over and I can see these applications are there.

01:22:15   And maybe for that reason, I do sometimes kind of like

01:22:18   that I can see the windows.

01:22:19   So I actually, I think it would be a nice option

01:22:23   to be able to minimize that.

01:22:25   It's a bit big, maybe shrink it down a bit.

01:22:27   But I do like that if you put an app over that area,

01:22:31   it kind of hides it and you can go over there

01:22:33   and it will come back, move the mouse over.

01:22:35   But I think the visual component of seeing them all there

01:22:39   and being able to just mouse over and quickly get to the fourth stage in my little list.

01:22:46   I really like that.

01:22:48   And so I can easily see what I have open, I can easily switch, I can have my apps be

01:22:52   bigger on the display now because I haven't got like 12 apps in one space, I've got like

01:22:57   three apps in one stage.

01:22:59   Like fundamentally I think this actually fits way more with how I want to work on my Mac,

01:23:05   having bunches of apps open and I can just go and get to them when I need them and they're

01:23:09   kind of like put together in what I consider to be logical pairings for those apps, I would

01:23:14   just really like to be able to deal with some of the edge cases easier. Like, I usually

01:23:19   have notes just on its own because I use notes like that, but sometimes I would like to quickly

01:23:24   bring notes and Safari together. I would like it to be easier to do that, to have quickly

01:23:30   just bring it in and quickly break it out into its own stage again. And a lot of that

01:23:35   would come with shortcuts which at the moment is a bit lacking. So I'm going to continue

01:23:41   using it and I'm also now pretty keen on upgrading my MacBook Pro that I do all my recording

01:23:47   on in my recording area of my studio. I want to update that to Ventura so I can put stage

01:23:52   manager on here. I'm really keen, I don't know how stage manager works on two monitors,

01:23:57   I haven't seen that yet, I don't know what that's like. I'm intrigued to see what that

01:24:02   is like. I think it might be a bit of a disaster, but we'll find out. But I really like Stage

01:24:06   Manager for the way that it helps me visually arrange the apps on my Mac. But it feels pretty

01:24:14   unfinished, especially when you compare it to iPadOS, which has more functionality, even

01:24:19   though it's like broken in a bunch of ways. But it has, it's the same feature. They announced

01:24:24   them at the same time, shipped them at the same time, but one version has more functionality

01:24:29   than the other and that's wild to me.

01:24:31   Mm-hmm.

01:24:32   They're the same except they're not.

01:24:34   Exactly.

01:24:35   But I do like it.

01:24:36   Okay.

01:24:37   And it's more useful to me on the Mac than it is on iPadOS, honestly.

01:24:40   Yeah, I mean, my review says it.

01:24:42   I just, I feel it's unfinished.

01:24:45   They need to keep working on it because it could be useful, not for everybody, but none

01:24:50   of their window managers are for everybody.

01:24:53   Everybody we learned already, everybody arranges windows differently, but you want to give

01:24:57   people tools so they can find a work system that works for them. And this one, for me,

01:25:06   I feel like it's just losing. It doesn't have enough of the niceties to make it, to give

01:25:11   you the control that at least that I feel it needs to have. And it has exposed to me

01:25:17   the fact that some of its other stuff like spaces also lacks a lot of those same sort

01:25:22   of niceties. And those have been there for a long time, but like spaces should get those

01:25:27   niceties too, right? Like this, it just, it feels like if you're gonna do this, you got

01:25:31   to do it properly and that they're not at that stage yet, which is why there needs to

01:25:35   be more.

01:25:36   We've run a little long today, tons of stuff to talk about. Do you want to finish out with

01:25:40   a couple of Ask Upgrade questions? Just for fun? Just for fun, you know?

01:25:44   Yeah.

01:25:45   Brant asks, do you think the touch bar would have gone over better if it had haptic feedback?

01:25:52   It's an interesting idea, I think, not just haptic feedback, right? It's haptic feedback,

01:25:59   you touch it and it does something. But the problem is, I think, with anything that's

01:26:05   in that plane down there with the keyboard is, if you have to do it by looking instead

01:26:10   of by feel, you kind of have lost. Because ideally you're not staring down at your keyboard.

01:26:16   The ideal would have been something which is like, feels like it wouldn't happen, which

01:26:21   is having little keys with LED screens in them.

01:26:25   Well there are a couple ways to go.

01:26:27   Would that be the touch bar?

01:26:28   I would say no, but yes, right, a programmable kind of set of keys that the keys change based

01:26:33   on time.

01:26:34   If you're going to do haptics, I would say you need to do pressure sensitivity too and

01:26:39   combine them because then you could move your finger over them and maybe even feel like

01:26:45   where your finger was based on the haptics and then press or something like that. But

01:26:49   I think the answer is probably no. Probably this was an idea that was not quite right.

01:26:57   And it also, the touch bar was never really going to be anything unless Apple really made

01:27:02   some effort to get the software to be good and to integrate with apps and all those things

01:27:06   and Apple never did any of that. So it starts and ends with the software, but sure, they

01:27:13   could have made the ergonomics different and it maybe would have gone better but

01:27:16   again only if the software had had when I haven't even mentioned this in this

01:27:22   context but when I talk about Apple shipping things and then not ever

01:27:25   improving them the touch bar is in that category too right where it's like they

01:27:29   shipped it and then it just sat there and could the touch bar have been

01:27:33   salvaged maybe if they had put some effort into updating it and spreading it

01:27:39   out and making it essential but they they literally they shipped it and

01:27:42   forgot about it. And that's my fear with Stage Manager

01:27:46   and some of the other features that they've shipped,

01:27:48   the system settings app and all that,

01:27:50   is that are they gonna really do the work?

01:27:52   Are they gonna take responsibility for their actions

01:27:54   and actually update these things?

01:27:56   Or are they gonna ship it and forget it?

01:27:58   Because, you know, don't ship something that's not done

01:28:01   and then forget about it.

01:28:02   And the touch bar is like that too.

01:28:03   The touch bar was not done.

01:28:04   Touch bar so clearly needed more work

01:28:07   and they never, ever gave it any.

01:28:10   Liv asks, "Is ProMotion a deal breaker for either of you?

01:28:13   With speculation of the 11-inch iPad Pro being axed,

01:28:16   I can't imagine myself buying another iPad

01:28:18   until ProMotion is added to the Air."

01:28:21   I will say for me, the smaller the screen,

01:28:26   the more I notice and the bigger impact that it has.

01:28:29   So my iPhone, it does make a big difference to me.

01:28:33   My MacBook Pro, don't notice it so much.

01:28:35   My iPad mini, I just wish it had a better screen in general.

01:28:38   But so that would maybe be where it starts

01:28:41   to tip over for me.

01:28:42   Like on the iPads, I forgot that feature existed.

01:28:45   Don't know why, I can't tell you why.

01:28:47   I've seen some other people say this too,

01:28:49   that like the smaller the screen,

01:28:50   the more likely they are to notice the higher refresh rate,

01:28:53   but that's kind of how it is for me.

01:28:55   Smaller the screen, the more I notice it.

01:28:58   I notice it maybe on really big screens,

01:29:00   like on my Windows PC,

01:29:03   I have a high refresh rate monitor and Windows supports that

01:29:06   And I do notice that like the mouse cursor

01:29:08   just looks way nicer than Apple's mouse cursor,

01:29:11   like on my non-promotion machines.

01:29:15   But for me, generally,

01:29:16   the smaller the device, the bigger the impact.

01:29:19   - Well, I have two thoughts.

01:29:20   One is having used the iPhone mini,

01:29:23   going to the iPhone Pro,

01:29:27   I definitely noticed the promotion and it was nice.

01:29:31   But I also know that I spent more than a year

01:29:35   or spent a year at least,

01:29:36   and I will go back to it at some point.

01:29:38   I'm still using the review unit for now

01:29:39   because dynamic island basically,

01:29:41   'cause I want, not just because I love it,

01:29:43   but because I need to see how apps use it, right?

01:29:46   And the only way to be up on the dynamic island

01:29:49   is to have an iPhone Pro at this point.

01:29:52   But I didn't miss it when I didn't have it.

01:29:54   So on the iPad, the iPad,

01:30:00   when I'm not sitting at my desk,

01:30:01   I am, you know, the iPad is the computing device

01:30:04   for the rest of my life and the rest of the house.

01:30:06   And so it matters more to me.

01:30:10   It's the opposite of you.

01:30:11   The iPad matters more to me than the iPhone

01:30:13   for that reason and for lots of reasons.

01:30:16   That said, knowing what I know about the mini,

01:30:21   I would say it's not a deal breaker.

01:30:23   And in fact, when I was using the iPad,

01:30:25   regular old 10th generation iPad, like it's fine, right?

01:30:31   And so I think the truth is, is it nice?

01:30:34   Yes. Is it a deal breaker?

01:30:35   No. I think for anything, promotion is a nice to have,

01:30:39   but I don't consider it a deal breaker anywhere.

01:30:41   Yeah. For what it's worth.

01:30:45   - If you would like to send in a question

01:30:47   for us to answer on the show,

01:30:49   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade

01:30:50   or use question mark #askupgrade

01:30:52   in the Relay FM members Discord

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01:31:04   benefits for being a relay FM member. Thank you so much to everybody that supports us

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01:31:30   Thank you so much for tuning into this show.

01:31:32   Every week as you do.

01:31:34   If you'd like to find Jason in the meantime go to sixcolors.com where you'll find a bunch

01:31:38   of great writing and of course Jason hosts many shows here on Relay FM as do I. Go to

01:31:43   relay.fm/shows find something new for yourself and if you want even more Jason Snow in your

01:31:47   life go to the incomparable.com and find a ton of great pop culture podcasts there too.

01:31:54   We'll be back next week.

01:31:56   Who knows what wonders will await us.

01:31:58   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:32:01   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:32:02   [MUSIC]