429: Freedom Doors


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00:00:09   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 429.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by TextExpander, CleanMyMac X, and Doppler.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hi, Myke Hurley.

00:00:22   How are you?

00:00:23   I'm doing okay.

00:00:24   How are you?

00:00:25   I'm pretty good.

00:00:26   I have a #SnellTalk question for you.

00:00:28   Oh, good.

00:00:29   Excellent.

00:00:30   Comes from Ian, who wants to know, "Jason, do you have a favorite smell?"

00:00:34   Hmm, interesting. Send in your smell talk questions, everybody.

00:00:40   This is smell talk.

00:00:41   We're running low.

00:00:42   Right?

00:00:43   I know. It's smell talk. It is. That's what it is now.

00:00:45   Well, you called Jason smell in school.

00:00:48   Oh, yeah. I mean, it's very much that, "Oh, I haven't heard that one before."

00:00:52   Yeah.

00:00:53   I was gonna make a joke here and say, "Well, sure, it's Lauren, but you really don't make me pick between my kids."

00:00:59   and oh you said smell I see. Oh that's good. It's totally different. But the answer, I

00:01:06   thought about this before the show a little bit, trying to ponder, and I'm gonna say orange

00:01:11   blossoms? If you've ever been in a place where there are orange groves, and there used to

00:01:17   be lots of these in Southern California, but there are other places where orange groves,

00:01:22   there's actually, the last time I smelled this was in Phoenix where there are a bunch

00:01:26   of orange trees sort of near where my mother lives and very close to where my sister used

00:01:32   to live. The orange groves, when the orange trees are in bloom, it is amazing. It doesn't

00:01:40   smell like you're in orange juice. That's not what, like a giant vat of orange juice.

00:01:45   That's not what it smells like. It's this very delicate, beautiful scent, floral, obviously,

00:01:50   of the orange trees. So that's my favorite. It's the orange tree, orange blossoms.

00:01:55   That was much more of a sweet answer than I was expecting, honestly.

00:02:00   I didn't know what I was going to get from you.

00:02:02   What?

00:02:03   New car smell that apple candle that's supposed to smell like an apple box?

00:02:07   What else did I consider as a joke answer?

00:02:10   I don't know.

00:02:11   I didn't necessarily think it was going to be technology related.

00:02:14   I thought about petrichor, the smell of after a rain when there hasn't been rain for a while,

00:02:20   you get that smell of like a fresh rain on like concrete or...

00:02:24   - I did not know that had a name.

00:02:26   - It does, petrichor.

00:02:27   It's, I only know about it

00:02:28   'cause it was in a "Doctor Who" episode,

00:02:30   as a random word that they had to figure out what it meant.

00:02:32   The smell of earth after rain, but it is petrichor.

00:02:35   P-E-T-R-I-C-H-O-R.

00:02:37   - Pleasant smell that frequently accompanies

00:02:39   the first rain after a long period of warm, dry weather.

00:02:42   - Right, and it is a smell.

00:02:44   I mean, you know that smell.

00:02:45   - Oh yeah.

00:02:45   - You know that smell.

00:02:46   That is a great smell.

00:02:48   I do love that smell.

00:02:49   - I have a question for you.

00:02:50   Do you like the smell of gasoline?

00:02:52   - No.

00:02:53   - Oh, I do.

00:02:54   I'm one of those people. - I do not.

00:02:55   - I like the smell.

00:02:57   I like the smell of gasoline.

00:02:58   I know it's bad smell, but I like it.

00:03:00   - That's why I buy electric cars now.

00:03:02   (laughing)

00:03:03   No more gasoline, thank you very much.

00:03:04   - I love the smell of electricity, me.

00:03:06   It's great.

00:03:07   - Oh yeah, give me those electrons, man.

00:03:08   Woo!

00:03:09   - Good smell of electrons in the morning.

00:03:10   - Mm, electrons, smell. - That'll wake you up.

00:03:12   That'll wake you up.

00:03:13   - That's right, you can just get a hot cup of electrons

00:03:15   and you'll start your day.

00:03:16   - Mm-mm-mm.

00:03:17   If you would like to send in a question for us

00:03:20   to open a future episode of the show,

00:03:22   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #snelltalk or use question mark #snelltalk in the RealAFM

00:03:27   members discord. As you can tell, it can be about basically anything. If it piques my

00:03:33   interest enough, then I'll ask Jason.

00:03:35   It actually shouldn't be about technology because really if it's about technology it

00:03:38   should be an ask upgrade question.

00:03:40   I 100% police that. So when people ask SnellTalk questions that should be Ask Upgrade questions,

00:03:46   they just go into my Ask Upgrade section rather than SnellTalk. Don't you worry, I'm on top

00:03:52   of that. I'm on top of that. Thank you. We have some follow-up. You were very upset about

00:03:58   your Nest thermostat. Very upset is probably pushing it, but it was that, so we had a nice

00:04:03   conversation last week about matter, you taught me lots of things about how matter works,

00:04:07   and then there was matter and antimatter and Starship engines and work cars and all that

00:04:12   kind of stuff. But one of the things that you mentioned is that Google, you know, is

00:04:19   board and the Nest supports this and I thought, well, I have, I think, a second generation

00:04:25   Nest, so maybe I need to get a third generation Nest thermostat. And I went and I looked it

00:04:28   up and I found, ultimately I found a very good interview with the head of Smart Home

00:04:33   Stuff basically at Google on the verge where they asked about the Nest thermostat and they

00:04:38   said, well, the Nest thermostat supports Matter, but we haven't decided whether the Nest Learning

00:04:44   thermostat, which is the nice one that I have, will support it or not. It has a

00:04:49   Thread Radio Edit, they said, but it's more complicated than that. And, you know,

00:04:54   I was a little irate because basically, as I, okay, basically the Nest thermostat,

00:05:01   which I have had a chance to use in a rental over the summer, feels like a

00:05:06   cheap knockoff of a Nest thermostat. The interface is totally different. It's got

00:05:11   like this weird touch sensitive strip on the side and a button that you press on the side

00:05:16   and the whole purpose of that round nest thing was there was a thing you could turn and you

00:05:21   could push and it was like a very tactile kind of thing. And that isn't in the nest

00:05:25   thermostat. It's only in the more expensive nest learning thermostat. Anyway, when asked

00:05:31   and this is so typically Google, when asked, "Well, will your high-end thermostat that

00:05:35   people have put in their homes support this brand new matter standard that you're behind?"

00:05:40   The answer was meh.

00:05:42   It wasn't no, it wasn't yes, it was meh.

00:05:45   So frustrating.

00:05:46   - I still like this, right?

00:05:47   So when you posted it, I was like,

00:05:50   I just went and did some more research as well.

00:05:53   And like, just thought,

00:05:54   let me just go through Google's pages, right?

00:05:56   Like their actual store pages.

00:05:58   And it is so unclear.

00:06:00   Like basically they have committed

00:06:02   that the standard Nest thermostat

00:06:05   is, will be meta support.

00:06:06   It will get meta support.

00:06:07   but the Nest Learning thermostat,

00:06:10   which was not a thing that I knew existed as a name

00:06:14   until this article. - Right, well, they added it

00:06:16   because they made this cheap one,

00:06:17   so they added that in because, see, it's very clever.

00:06:20   They removed all the learning features and stuff,

00:06:22   which I have turned off anyway,

00:06:23   but they removed the learning features

00:06:26   when they cheaped out,

00:06:26   and they didn't wanna call that low-end model

00:06:28   the Nest Cheap Plastic Thermostat.

00:06:30   So what they did is they,

00:06:31   like, let's accentuate the positive.

00:06:33   The features we took out of the cheap one are,

00:06:36   like learning are in the expensive ones

00:06:38   that will add that name.

00:06:39   So the Nest thermostat is now the Nest learning thermostat

00:06:42   because they make the cheap plastic crappy one.

00:06:44   - Yep, and still you can buy this.

00:06:46   So you can buy today the $249 Nest learning thermostat.

00:06:50   And as it stands right now,

00:06:51   there is no expectation that it will support matter.

00:06:56   - Right, it may.

00:06:58   - And it may need a thread bridge or something like that,

00:07:01   which is something we spoke about.

00:07:02   - Well, no, it has a thread radio in it.

00:07:03   I think it's a software thing.

00:07:05   I think they actually are gonna have to,

00:07:06   It's like, can they fit in whatever the little processor is

00:07:08   inside there and how much memory it has?

00:07:10   - I was talking about how Thread won't support Matter

00:07:14   unless there's a bridge in the middle.

00:07:16   They may support it that way, I don't know.

00:07:20   They haven't said one way or another.

00:07:22   - I don't know.

00:07:22   But I think it's really telling

00:07:24   that they've got this premium product

00:07:25   and when asked directly by a member of the media,

00:07:27   what about it, their response was not yes or no,

00:07:30   but really like, "Meh, we don't know."

00:07:33   And it remains so as far as I can tell,

00:07:34   which is very frustrating.

00:07:35   So I know a lot of people who use Apple products

00:07:38   use ecobee thermostats.

00:07:40   Ecobee thermostats are very good.

00:07:42   I don't like how they look.

00:07:44   It turns out though,

00:07:47   while I was looking around digging into this,

00:07:49   it turns out the ecobee makes a new ecobee

00:07:53   that is a high-end model.

00:07:55   And it's got like the metal housing and stuff,

00:07:58   and it's bigger.

00:07:59   It's almost like an Apple watch ultra

00:08:01   for an ecobee thermostat.

00:08:03   So it's got a bigger screen

00:08:04   and it's got metal around it, like stainless steel around it.

00:08:07   So it looks more like a Nest actually.

00:08:10   And honestly, if I decide to give up on Nest,

00:08:13   that's what I'll buy.

00:08:15   And it costs about what the Nest Learning Thermostat costs

00:08:17   by the way.

00:08:18   The problem I have with ecobee is mostly

00:08:20   that I don't like ecobee's interface

00:08:21   because it's a round rect, that's the shape of it,

00:08:25   and it's a touchscreen.

00:08:26   And it's essentially like a little app

00:08:30   that's stuck to your wall.

00:08:32   And the Nest, you know, if I want it to be hotter,

00:08:35   I put my hands on the outside of the ring and I turn it

00:08:38   and then, and the number goes up.

00:08:40   And if I want it to be cooler,

00:08:41   I turn it and the number goes down.

00:08:42   And if I want to do, interact with it, I press it in,

00:08:45   press literally the thermostat in, and it bumps in,

00:08:49   and it gives me a menu and then I go around.

00:08:51   I love that interface.

00:08:53   And I like how it looks on my wall

00:08:55   and I'd like to keep it rather than have to have,

00:08:57   again, like a little mini, you know,

00:09:00   iPad or iPhone app that lives on my wall that I have to go doo doo doo doo doo doo doo and

00:09:04   touch and swipe and all that. I don't want to do that.

00:09:08   This smart thermostat supports Spotify. You can play your music from the thermostat. I

00:09:15   would say that might be too much.

00:09:18   ecobee also supports, it's got support for multiple voice assistants.

00:09:22   That's fine. The voice assistant thing I actually think is quite clever, right?

00:09:25   It's just another, right, well it ends up being another microphone that's listening.

00:09:30   I don't know if I need it to play my Spotify music though.

00:09:33   You know what I mean? - Yeah, right?

00:09:34   On your thermostat? - Yeah.

00:09:36   - Anyway, it's a perfectly nice product

00:09:37   and I might end up buying it,

00:09:39   but I'm glad that they made one that looks nicer

00:09:41   and not as cheap as their other ones do.

00:09:45   But I would really rather that Google actually support

00:09:48   Matter with a Nest.

00:09:49   And so for now, all my enthusiasm about Matter helping me

00:09:53   get my thermostat on HomeKit properly,

00:09:56   I am withdrawing it all

00:09:59   and instead sort of just coming to terms with the fact

00:10:02   that I'm probably gonna have to bridge it for a while

00:10:05   and then ultimately it's unclear what I'll replace it with.

00:10:10   Maybe it'll turn out that somebody builds an amazing nest

00:10:13   to matter thing that runs on a server

00:10:17   and I don't need to ever change it

00:10:19   because the thermostats don't go out of style.

00:10:22   Like it works fine other than what it's talking to.

00:10:25   So we'll see.

00:10:26   But anyway, I just was amazed by Google.

00:10:30   I mean, I don't love that Google made the cheap crappy Nest

00:10:33   and called it a Nest thermostat, but I get it.

00:10:35   They wanted a cheaper, more accessible model.

00:10:38   And while it is having used it now,

00:10:41   I realize how much of a downgrade it is from the good one.

00:10:45   Seriously, when you use a product and you think,

00:10:47   oh, this is the cut rate knockoff non-brand product

00:10:52   that's trying to ape a Nest to trick people.

00:10:56   and then you discovered, no, it's literally the Nest

00:11:00   low-end product.

00:11:01   Like that's a bad sign when you think that this is some

00:11:03   sort of chintzy rip-off and it's actually the low-end

00:11:06   product.

00:11:08   But like also just very disappointed in Google for having

00:11:11   this high-end product that they continue to sell

00:11:13   and yet are super shifty about whether it will ever

00:11:17   talk to the smart home standard that Google is fully

00:11:21   quote unquote, fully behind.

00:11:23   So, okay.

00:11:25   I just wanted to mention to try and alleviate the follow-up.

00:11:29   I think we both know that the Starling Home Hub

00:11:32   as a product exists.

00:11:34   - Yes, people mail that in and that's fine.

00:11:37   I have a Mac Mini running all the time,

00:11:38   so I don't need another piece,

00:11:39   another little tiny computer running as a hub

00:11:41   because I have a Mac Mini and Homebridge.

00:11:44   If you don't, there is a company that has essentially,

00:11:46   and the Starling Home Hub is what it is,

00:11:49   productized Homebridge essentially, or Home Control,

00:11:51   or something like that.

00:11:52   And like they've got a board in there

00:11:54   and they've got the software in there.

00:11:55   And it's essentially a piece of hardware

00:11:58   that acts like one of these software bridges.

00:12:01   But if you've got a Mac mini server

00:12:04   or something like that, like I do,

00:12:05   you can just run Homebridge and do it that way.

00:12:08   - Johnny Ive is going to be an executive producer

00:12:11   on an upcoming Apple TV+ animated movie.

00:12:13   It's coming this Christmas.

00:12:16   It's an adaptation of a book called

00:12:17   "The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse."

00:12:20   There are a large name, like selection of names

00:12:23   attached to this movie from who's making it to who's producing it to who's executive producing

00:12:27   it. I just thought it was just like a funny little thing to note that Johnny is going

00:12:31   to be an executive producer on an Apple TV+ movie.

00:12:36   Yeah it's a little weird. I wonder what the story is there. Shades of Scott Forstall.

00:12:41   9 to 5 Mac thinks it's because JJ Abrams and Woody Arleson are involved in this movie and

00:12:48   they are both personal friends of Johnny.

00:12:49   - Ah, so they got Johnny involved in some way.

00:12:53   I have a, since you mentioned 9to5Mac,

00:12:56   I just have a little note for a friend of the show,

00:12:57   Zach Hall.

00:12:58   - Okay.

00:12:59   - Very nice fellow.

00:13:01   This story that we're linking to in our show notes.

00:13:04   - Oh yes.

00:13:05   - Is one of the more confusing stories

00:13:06   I've seen on 9to5Mac.

00:13:08   - I don't think it is,

00:13:08   but me and Steven had this conversation.

00:13:10   - Because, okay, so what it is,

00:13:13   I think what's happening here is that

00:13:15   they have a roundup column that they do

00:13:17   where they dump a whole bunch of small news items in

00:13:20   instead of running them as individual items.

00:13:22   Because this story is two stories.

00:13:24   This page is Johnny Ive's the executive producer of a thing.

00:13:27   And also Ted Lasso has a deal with Bumble

00:13:31   to bring their banter thing from Ted Lasso onto Bumble.

00:13:34   So why is this not two stories?

00:13:38   Why is the story that with Johnny Ive as the lead

00:13:41   have a big Ted Lasso banter thing at the top?

00:13:44   - Because you get- - Why is the headline

00:13:46   starting with banter and following with Johnny Ive when the story sequence is Johnny Ive

00:13:49   and then banter.

00:13:50   Well, okay, so I think, yes, they have a round-up of TV+ content. I think these two things go

00:13:56   together because you get to be able to write the headline "Dating out banter from Ted

00:14:00   Lasso becomes real, Johnny Ive adds Apple TV+ product producer to resume" because that

00:14:06   headline, I clicked it immediately. So I'm like, I thought those two things were related.

00:14:11   They're not.

00:14:12   I think it's interesting from a web publishing standpoint that these could have been two

00:14:15   separate articles with two separate clicks and they're not. And that's fun. That goes

00:14:21   against the way that the modern web works where, you know, they'll discover like, and

00:14:26   again, I'm not trying to pick a nine to five Mac because everybody does this, but like

00:14:29   nine to five Mac will have like, you know, maybe they discover four, three interesting

00:14:36   things about or interesting things about three new Apple products that are rumored. And then

00:14:41   what you end up doing is you're writing three stories about them, right? You're like, Oh,

00:14:44   Apple Watch report says this." And it's like, "Oh, a new iPad report says this." And, "Oh,

00:14:48   new iPhone report says this." It's the same report, you could have rolled it together,

00:14:50   but it's like, "Well, no, we want more stories and more clicks and all of that." I just think

00:14:53   it's funny that in this case they got put together, but I think you're right. I think

00:14:58   that this is a process thing where this is the, we're writing about Apple TV and here

00:15:02   is two stories that are sort of related to Apple TV, so we'll roll them together. I just,

00:15:06   but what you're saying is, if I can stick banter, Ted Lasso and Johnny Ive in one headline,

00:15:12   dating in one headline, boy do that because that's catnip for clicks.

00:15:17   Because I had multiple people send me this who didn't read the article.

00:15:22   And the URL is "Apple TV Johnny Ive dating app."

00:15:25   Exactly.

00:15:26   So I had multiple people send me this article and they were like "Oh!" because they didn't

00:15:29   read it.

00:15:30   Johnny Ive is going to be producing a dating app.

00:15:32   It's amazing!

00:15:33   That Johnny Ive designed a dating app and is now an executive producer of Ted Lasso.

00:15:38   I think this is what people took from it.

00:15:39   If that's the plan, Zach Hall, then I applaud you and 9to5Mac, what a move that is.

00:15:45   I just was puzzled by it because I'm like, "Well, wait a second.

00:15:49   What is this other story that's pasted at the end of the story about this Christmas

00:15:52   thing that… okay, alright."

00:15:54   You got some follow-out for us.

00:15:58   I have a little follow-out.

00:15:59   I mean, there was a little follow-out item in the document and I thought, "That's

00:16:02   interesting.

00:16:03   What's it going to be?"

00:16:04   And then I thought, "Oh, I have some follow-out that I was going to…"

00:16:06   Well, the heading's always there in our document just in case.

00:16:09   - Well, but it pinged a thing in my head.

00:16:11   It was like, oh, I actually do have follow out.

00:16:13   - Okay.

00:16:14   - Last week on the Accidental Tech Podcast, episode 504,

00:16:17   they talked a lot about Mac window management.

00:16:20   Casey got angry.

00:16:21   That's fine.

00:16:23   Was that, yeah, I think that was last week.

00:16:24   Casey got angry 'cause John and Marco

00:16:27   kept adding all the footnotes to the things

00:16:29   when Casey wanted to keep it simple.

00:16:30   It's fine.

00:16:31   I think they actually did a pretty good job

00:16:32   of exposing the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of,

00:16:36   I'm a new Mac user.

00:16:37   What's the right way to manage my windows?

00:16:38   And the answer is there is no right way.

00:16:41   There's about a million different ways

00:16:43   to manage your windows.

00:16:45   Find one that works for you.

00:16:48   The reason that this is follow out,

00:16:49   and I've already expressed this to Casey privately,

00:16:53   but he's heard from a lot of people,

00:16:56   but I just wanted to be on the record here,

00:16:58   is I think it's interesting

00:16:59   'cause they spent the whole time talking about keyboards

00:17:01   and hot corners and clicking with a mouse.

00:17:03   And what they missed is one of the,

00:17:06   I think most fundamental ways

00:17:08   that a modern Mac interface works.

00:17:10   And the reason it's fundamental is twofold.

00:17:12   One, most Macs sold are laptops.

00:17:15   And two, Apple also sells a very nice desktop Mac

00:17:20   pointing device called the Magic Trackpad.

00:17:23   - There it is.

00:17:24   - And they do the same thing, which is gestures.

00:17:27   - Yep.

00:17:28   - And so when they're talking about,

00:17:30   oh, here's what you do, you hold down F11

00:17:32   and then you drag a thing.

00:17:33   And I'm like, F11?

00:17:35   - What, why?

00:17:37   - And they're like, oh, this is great.

00:17:39   You could get a hotkey that shows the desktop.

00:17:42   And I think, or you can do,

00:17:44   and I had to think about what the gesture is,

00:17:46   but it's basically on a track pad,

00:17:48   you put all your fingers together

00:17:50   and you put it on the track pad and then you flick,

00:17:53   you just open them up and you're like flick.

00:17:55   And what does it do?

00:17:56   It takes every window on your screen and it flicks it out.

00:17:58   It flicks it away to the sides of the screen

00:18:00   so you can see the desktop.

00:18:02   It is a, I would say almost whimsical kind of feature

00:18:05   given how it's paired with the gesture.

00:18:07   And so you just go bloop and there's your desktop

00:18:09   and you bring it back.

00:18:10   And then of course I also use when I've lost a window,

00:18:13   this especially happens with installers.

00:18:15   You have that thing where it's like,

00:18:16   oh, now I have installed an update

00:18:19   and now I need to relaunch and it goes behind a window

00:18:22   and but it's not like a window window.

00:18:24   It's like kind of a half of a window and you can't find it.

00:18:27   - Sometimes it's like now no longer related to the app

00:18:30   so you click the icon, but it doesn't bring up

00:18:32   the relaunch thing or whatever. - It doesn't bring forward.

00:18:35   So if you take three or more, I believe it is,

00:18:39   three or four fingers or five or six or seven,

00:18:41   put all your fingers on there, I don't care,

00:18:43   and you put it on the trackpad and you swipe up,

00:18:46   it does the show me all windows,

00:18:47   and it sort of tiles them and shrinks them,

00:18:49   and then you can click on the one you wanna bring forward,

00:18:52   and it brings it forward, and I use that all the time,

00:18:55   not to mention the standard sort of two finger scrolling

00:18:58   and two finger clicking for an alternate click.

00:19:02   - I constantly doing the trackpad gestures.

00:19:05   Like I'm like swiping up to get like to get to expose,

00:19:09   I'm swiping left and right with the four fingers

00:19:12   to go my spaces. - For spaces?

00:19:13   - Yeah. - Sure.

00:19:14   - I'm all over it.

00:19:15   - Yeah, so I mean, they know already.

00:19:19   Casey was like, "Yeah, yeah, we heard."

00:19:20   But I just wanted to mention here

00:19:22   because I thought it was a really fun conversation

00:19:24   even though Casey just got increasingly angry

00:19:25   because I think it made the point

00:19:27   that those are three different users.

00:19:28   And while they seem to not care so much

00:19:30   about trackpad gestures,

00:19:31   they're three different users

00:19:32   with three different, completely different perspectives

00:19:35   on how to do window management.

00:19:37   And this is gonna become more relevant

00:19:39   when we talk about stage manager

00:19:42   on macOS Ventura when it ships, right?

00:19:44   Because that's yet another way to do this.

00:19:47   Plus there are third parties,

00:19:48   but like even just Apple has all of these different ways.

00:19:53   And the answer is there's no one true way.

00:19:56   it actually is that Apple's trying to give users

00:19:59   a whole lot of choice in order to find a good way for them.

00:20:03   Because some people- - And I encourage that.

00:20:05   - Yes, because the truth is everybody's different.

00:20:09   Everybody has a different preference.

00:20:10   If they said, no, the one true way is full screen mode,

00:20:13   I'd be like, I'm not updating

00:20:16   because I'm never using full screen mode, right?

00:20:18   Or spaces, they're like, spaces are mandatory now.

00:20:21   I was like, no, I mean, that would be stupid,

00:20:23   but like, no, I don't wanna use spaces.

00:20:25   I don't like it, but other people swear by it

00:20:28   and that's fine, right?

00:20:30   Like everybody's different.

00:20:31   I do think that Apple probably should do another,

00:20:35   after they ship stage manager,

00:20:36   they should probably do another like high level,

00:20:38   what are we really trying to get at here?

00:20:40   And I think, honestly, I do think maybe they should consider

00:20:44   some sort of tiling as another thing on top of it,

00:20:47   but the third parties have it pretty well covered.

00:20:49   So anyway, trackpad gestures are great

00:20:52   and they're available on most Macs

00:20:54   because most Macs are laptops with a trackpad.

00:20:57   And if you're somebody who is at a desktop

00:21:00   and doesn't use a trackpad on your desktop,

00:21:02   even though you use a laptop a lot,

00:21:04   I really encourage you to look at the Magic Trackpad

00:21:06   'cause the beauty of it is all of the muscle memory

00:21:09   that you build up on your laptop

00:21:11   is then there on your desktop.

00:21:13   And that's why I switched and I love it.

00:21:16   - I have both a mouse and a trackpad for all of this.

00:21:20   - I know a lot of people who do that, right?

00:21:21   And you can do the gestures on the trackpad

00:21:23   and you can do some other stuff on the mouse

00:21:25   and that works great too.

00:21:26   So I, yeah, anyway, it was a fun conversation

00:21:30   and it triggered in me all of those thoughts of like,

00:21:33   yeah, Apple really is just sort of like,

00:21:35   has a menu of options for you to choose from

00:21:38   in terms of how you wanna manage your windows.

00:21:41   But those guys, I guess 'cause they maybe don't

00:21:45   use those gestures or are at a desk

00:21:48   and aren't using a magic track pad, but they just,

00:21:50   I couldn't believe as I went through the whole conversation

00:21:52   they didn't mention it.

00:21:53   So there, I mentioned it,

00:21:55   trackpad gestures are the,

00:21:57   like secret sauce,

00:21:59   and they shouldn't be a secret,

00:22:01   'cause you don't,

00:22:02   there are lots of things for which a hot corner

00:22:04   or holding down F11 is probably not

00:22:07   the best way to get at that feature.

00:22:09   But if, again, if you want to,

00:22:11   if you like it, do it that way.

00:22:13   But I think that gestures are more intuitive.

00:22:17   - But this is why the follow out segment exists,

00:22:19   because why send in follow up for a podcast

00:22:22   when you can just provide it on your own podcast.

00:22:25   - On your own podcast and then the podcasts eat each other

00:22:28   and forming one giant mass of podcasts.

00:22:31   Anyway, that's my feedback.

00:22:33   - And maybe they listen, maybe they don't,

00:22:34   but you know, that's how it works.

00:22:37   - Yep.

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00:24:55   Got a very short room around up, Jason Snell.

00:24:59   You saddle up. - Okay.

00:25:00   - Head on down to the AR/VR town.

00:25:04   There's a new report from the information

00:25:07   with a couple of interesting little details.

00:25:09   Well, they seem to be very on it, the information,

00:25:13   when it comes to the headset.

00:25:15   I feel like more than most places,

00:25:17   this tends to be where we get a lot of information.

00:25:20   We'll find out, no pun intended,

00:25:22   we'll find out how much of it's actually correct

00:25:25   at some point in the future.

00:25:26   But Iris ID is the thing that would be coming

00:25:30   to the AR/VR headset,

00:25:32   which would be a biometric sensor authentication system

00:25:36   for the headset that would allow you to make purchases,

00:25:38   switch users automatically, that kind of thing.

00:25:42   So you would put your headset on,

00:25:43   it would know who was wearing the headset

00:25:45   and then use their profile and all that kind of stuff.

00:25:48   This sensor is the same technology

00:25:52   that allows them to do foveated rendering,

00:25:55   which is a thing where it looks where your eyes are looking

00:25:57   and just renders in that exact location that's needed

00:26:00   rather than needing to render an entire scene

00:26:02   in full resolution.

00:26:03   This is a thing that more and more headsets are doing.

00:26:06   The PlayStation PSVR2 is gonna be using foveated rendering.

00:26:10   it allows you to have less processing needed

00:26:13   at any one time.

00:26:14   So where you're looking is where it's rendering,

00:26:16   which is very clever.

00:26:17   So that they have adopted it for that,

00:26:19   but it can also do this iris scanning basically.

00:26:23   And they're gonna use that instead of face ID

00:26:25   or touch ID for the headset apparently.

00:26:27   - Right, so you put on the headset and it knows who it is

00:26:29   because they recognize your eyes.

00:26:31   It's like Captain Kirk and Star Trek 2.

00:26:33   They like pop, like look at them.

00:26:35   We thought we had jumped past that to face ID,

00:26:38   but it turns out,

00:26:39   - No, I'm not on a headset.

00:26:41   It's actually the best way to do it.

00:26:43   Very interesting, very interesting.

00:26:44   The foveated rendering stuff, I also am amazed by, right?

00:26:47   Because like, imagine the level of detail and speed

00:26:51   and power you have to have to recognize

00:26:54   where the eye is facing and dynamically change what is,

00:26:58   well, it's not even dynamically change what is in focus

00:27:00   based on where the eye is facing.

00:27:02   It really is, the key is the moment that your eye,

00:27:04   and by the way, eyes move real fast,

00:27:08   flick from left to right, that the display updates

00:27:12   with the higher resolution over there immediately.

00:27:16   So you don't have this thing where every time your eyes

00:27:18   flick slightly in one direction or other,

00:27:20   everything gets a little hazy for a moment.

00:27:23   So that's, I mean, vision is weird

00:27:25   and there are lots of tricks you can play on human vision,

00:27:27   but still like when I hear the foveated rendering stuff

00:27:30   described, I am like, I don't disbelieve,

00:27:34   I'm just kind of amazed that we have the ability

00:27:37   to do that, 'cause it's very clever, right?

00:27:39   The idea that your peripheral vision doesn't need to be

00:27:42   so clear because it's your peripheral vision,

00:27:45   but to make that actually work is amazing.

00:27:48   - So there's, the MetaQuest Pro is a product

00:27:52   that exists now, right?

00:27:54   So we're already starting to get--

00:27:55   - Well, sort of.

00:27:56   - Well, I mean, it goes on sale next week.

00:28:00   - Okay.

00:28:01   - So it's very much more real than Apple's headset,

00:28:03   we can say, right?

00:28:04   They've shown it off, and it goes on sale on the 25th.

00:28:07   So maybe not next week, but the 25th is when you can buy.

00:28:09   You can pre-order it now.

00:28:11   A nine to five Mac, I wanted to read this

00:28:13   'cause I thought it was interesting.

00:28:14   The information report says Apple's headset

00:28:17   will look quite different to the just announced

00:28:19   Method Quest Pro in regards to physical design.

00:28:21   The Quest Pro looks like a plastic visor,

00:28:23   but the Apple headset will supposedly use

00:28:26   mesh fabric, aluminum, and glass,

00:28:28   making for a more premium appearance.

00:28:31   And I thought that was interesting,

00:28:32   but did want to say Apple's headset

00:28:33   is probably gonna cost twice as much

00:28:36   - Yeah, yeah. - So you would hope so.

00:28:39   - Yeah, I am also amused by the more premium appearance

00:28:42   because I have to ask the question,

00:28:43   what is the more premium appearance for?

00:28:46   - Yes.

00:28:47   - Because when you're wearing it,

00:28:48   you don't know what it looks like.

00:28:49   So it's, does it look better?

00:28:51   I mean, premium materials can be nice

00:28:53   because they can feel better.

00:28:54   - Uh-huh. - I totally get that.

00:28:56   But how much of this is really like,

00:28:58   well, we know it's embarrassing to put on a VR headset,

00:29:01   but not our VR headset, it's less embarrassing

00:29:04   because it's made of premium materials and looks nicer on the outside for when people

00:29:09   are looking at you looking dumb wearing a headset.

00:29:13   Don't forget there was the rumor of the screen that's on the front which shows your eyes.

00:29:19   All kinds of impression, facial impression of you. Like that could be sensors. Like before

00:29:24   I wasn't sure about like how that would work, right? Like are they gonna have like a camera

00:29:28   and it actually shows your real eyes? Like maybe they're gonna do that. But the MetaQuest

00:29:33   Pro has sensors in it to detect like your eyebrow movement and stuff like that, like

00:29:38   a facial expression. And apparently from the people that have tried it and tried it out,

00:29:43   this works surprisingly well for the characters that you are in like in world in VR. So maybe

00:29:48   it's just something like that, it's like a cartoon Memoji like thing and it's using sensors

00:29:53   to then represent your personality on the outside. I still don't know if that's necessary

00:29:58   but we'll see.

00:29:59   Yeah, yeah. I mean it's very Apple right? An Apple, Apple, any piece of hardware, Apple

00:30:04   wants it to feel premium and look, look that way and, and if it's, yeah, if it's gonna

00:30:09   cost what it's gonna cost, then it probably should not look like a lump of plastic. But

00:30:13   I just, you know, in the end, what matters with these things at this point is how they

00:30:19   feel way more than how they look when you're wearing them because you're not wearing, you're

00:30:25   not seeing yourself when you wear it. So it doesn't matter.

00:30:28   does not matter because you're always gonna look a little bit ridiculous no matter what

00:30:32   the thing is. Yes. You crystallize my thoughts perfectly. Yes, exactly. Well, we're heating

00:30:38   up. This world is heating up. Or you could be like James Thompson who just posted a thing

00:30:44   in our chat room where somebody just put googly eyes on the front of an Oculus Quest 2. I'm

00:30:47   assuming it was him that did that. I don't know. These are James's. It doesn't really

00:30:53   matter does it? It's a good one. Just do that. Just do it. Maybe that is what they're gonna

00:30:57   Done. That's cheaper. It's a lot cheaper. Not really premium materials. We used, for

00:31:02   our googly eyes, we used quartz crystal.

00:31:06   Chamfered googlies.

00:31:08   And inside is a surgically, surgical quality stainless steel disc with chamfered edges.

00:31:15   The Apple googly eyes, they're coming. Watch out.

00:31:19   You got some AirPods Pro 2.

00:31:22   I did. I heard you, this is follow out essentially away from Connected last week, where you talked

00:31:29   about your AirPods Pro 2, and I wanted to talk about it with you here. So, I mean, I

00:31:34   don't have a lot to say, but I wanted to say that they sound great, they really do, and

00:31:38   I used my AirPods Pro originals a lot. As somebody who didn't believe in Apple's earbuds

00:31:45   at all. The noise cancelling and the lightness of it led me down the path. These are, they

00:31:55   sound great, the pass-through sounds good, although I am, again, how do you prove that,

00:32:03   you know, like, oh yeah, that sound should have been louder and it wasn't. It's very

00:32:07   hard to prove that.

00:32:08   Yeah, I'm still not convinced about that myself, like, I'll be honest.

00:32:11   I need to go stand next to a jackhammer and see what happens. Gotta find something under

00:32:15   construction. I still yet to experience it especially because I know I

00:32:19   experienced this happening before like a siren would go by like a police car or

00:32:25   something and it would adjust the transparency so I still am not sure about this. It'd just be faster and better.

00:32:31   But overall the the actual noise cancelling experience is really good

00:32:35   like I don't they sound better I think they do but I'm not entirely convinced

00:32:40   when people say oh yeah they sound better and I'm noticing more bass

00:32:43   response and all that. I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't because they're coming from

00:32:46   an old pair of AirPods Pro that have some earwax in them and stuff.

00:32:52   I think that these things wear out over time, like I really do. I think they just get less

00:32:56   powerful over time. It's not a clean comparison if you've got

00:32:59   an old worn out pair and then a brand new pair, because of course they're going to feel

00:33:04   nicer because they're new and they're going to sound better. Anyway, but they do sound

00:33:08   great and the noise canceling is definitely superior.

00:33:13   I'm very impressed by that.

00:33:15   And how much of that is the technology

00:33:20   and how much of that is the seal is a question for me

00:33:25   because I think that there's a limit

00:33:27   to what Apple can do with noise canceling

00:33:29   because of the seal, right?

00:33:32   Because if you're letting in sound from the outside

00:33:35   through the gap in your headphones,

00:33:39   it's hard for Apple to counteract that.

00:33:40   Not that they don't try, right?

00:33:42   They've got the little microphones on the inside

00:33:44   that are trying to get the sound that's coming

00:33:46   into your ear canal and cancel it,

00:33:49   but there's only so much they can do.

00:33:51   And so, you know, what I'm really saying is

00:33:52   when I'm writing in the backyard and the kids next door

00:33:54   are jumping up and down on the trampoline,

00:33:56   I can still hear them, but they're pretty quiet

00:33:58   and I don't have to, you know,

00:33:59   but the, when the person is redoing their roof, you know,

00:34:03   five houses down and there's a big machine running out there.

00:34:07   I can't, you know, I can't hear that, which is pretty great.

00:34:11   So yeah, I, so I love them.

00:34:13   And I know we did an upgrade ease about this a few years ago

00:34:16   when the AirPods Pro came out, but like AirPods alone,

00:34:19   but AirPods Pro especially, this is one of like,

00:34:24   everybody talks about, oh, what's the next iPhone

00:34:26   and Apple doesn't make great products anymore.

00:34:27   And you know, where's the next great, brilliant idea.

00:34:31   and people poo-poo the Apple Watch, which I like,

00:34:33   but AirPods and AirPods Pro,

00:34:36   this is a great product and super influential, right?

00:34:42   Because while there were some products

00:34:44   that did sort of some of this beforehand,

00:34:47   when Apple went down this path,

00:34:49   every other technology company was like,

00:34:51   "They got it, that's it, let's do that."

00:34:53   And I'm not saying that in a negative way,

00:34:55   because people are like, "Oh, they copied it."

00:34:59   It's like, okay, whatever.

00:35:00   I do think there comes a moment in technology,

00:35:02   like the moment when Samsung started selling

00:35:05   a lot of very big screened phones,

00:35:07   where everybody else goes, "Oh, that, that's the answer."

00:35:11   Somebody found the answer, that's the answer.

00:35:15   And AirPods Pro is like that.

00:35:17   It's like Apple did it and everybody else went,

00:35:19   "Oh yeah, okay, let's do that."

00:35:21   Because it's that good.

00:35:23   I love them.

00:35:24   It is one of the best products Apple has made.

00:35:26   And this is just better of the same one.

00:35:30   So thumbs up from me.

00:35:32   - This might not be an original take,

00:35:34   but it's a thought that I just had.

00:35:37   Basically AirPods, the whole AirPods line,

00:35:40   it is the modern iPod for Apple.

00:35:43   - Yeah, that's it. - Right, that they have

00:35:44   a product that they put out that was successful,

00:35:48   and then they made a bunch of them in different types,

00:35:50   different configurations, and people love them.

00:35:54   They're everywhere.

00:35:56   Obviously, the easy comparison is the white earbuds

00:36:00   is the same, right?

00:36:00   Like they were white earbuds then, it's white earbuds now.

00:36:04   And similarly, it proved that there was a market for this.

00:36:08   And then a bunch of other companies went and made products

00:36:11   that are similar or better in some ways, worse in others,

00:36:15   depending on what you care about.

00:36:17   And of course it's music related.

00:36:19   - Yeah, I was gonna say,

00:36:20   I think that you're onto something there

00:36:22   and that the truth of it is,

00:36:25   remember when they made that iPod shuffle

00:36:27   that didn't have any interface on it.

00:36:28   And it's like, well, no, the headphones at the interface.

00:36:30   Like, well, in a world where every device

00:36:33   can be a Bluetooth internet connected

00:36:36   or preloaded with music audio player,

00:36:39   you don't need an iPod anymore.

00:36:41   - No.

00:36:41   - But you still have ears, right?

00:36:43   You still need the other part of it.

00:36:44   So in many ways, the AirPods literally are

00:36:46   all that's left of the iPod,

00:36:49   which is the part you stick in your ears,

00:36:50   because I walk around frequently with,

00:36:54   here at the house, I have like at least four devices

00:36:58   that I use every day that all can play right

00:37:02   into the AirPods, right?

00:37:03   And I get to choose.

00:37:04   And when I go for a run and just bring my watch,

00:37:06   I bring the AirPods and there they are.

00:37:08   So from my, actually my Apple TV too,

00:37:12   I've done that when I've had,

00:37:14   there was somebody working outside with a loud machine

00:37:17   and I was trying to eat my lunch and watch TV.

00:37:20   And I put in my AirPod Pros and set it as the output

00:37:26   from my Apple TV and used it that way.

00:37:29   So yeah, it's just, it's a really smart product

00:37:32   and I'm glad it exists and the new one is better.

00:37:36   And I'm interested to see what they'll do in the future.

00:37:40   We talked a while ago about Apple Watch

00:37:43   and the challenge with the Apple Watch temperature sensor

00:37:45   on the wrist and the medical issues with it.

00:37:47   And like when you get a fever,

00:37:49   it's more on the inside of your body and your chest

00:37:52   and not so much your extremities, which can get cooler.

00:37:55   and there's a lot of complication there.

00:37:57   And I thought about in the context

00:37:59   why Apple is rumored to be investigating things

00:38:02   like temperature and other health sensors in AirPods,

00:38:05   which seems so weird except the AirPods are in your ears.

00:38:09   It's a better place for sensing things.

00:38:13   - And it's also a second data point, right, as well,

00:38:16   which might continually assist and maybe they just,

00:38:19   really it's like, oh, your AirPods

00:38:21   can talk to your Apple Watch.

00:38:23   and like, which goes together with the way

00:38:25   that they introduced that September keynote, right?

00:38:28   Of like these three products are actually like,

00:38:32   it's one ecosystem.

00:38:34   Yeah, interesting.

00:38:35   That's a really good point.

00:38:37   - On top of that, I'll say, and this is a wild idea,

00:38:40   but I'm gonna throw it out there.

00:38:41   This is one of those infinite timescale ideas,

00:38:43   but I know we've talked a lot about how Apple's first AR

00:38:45   product is the AirPods, right?

00:38:47   Because they do the transparency mode,

00:38:49   so you're listening to reality,

00:38:50   but something is overlaid over it,

00:38:52   and Apple's technology is mediating it.

00:38:54   You know, there's a scenario where Apple and other

00:38:59   and its competitors are creating these things

00:39:01   that are increasingly small and increasingly smart.

00:39:05   And there's a point where Apple might say,

00:39:08   just, we talk about it for glasses, right?

00:39:11   But it's, I feel like we're gonna get there sooner

00:39:14   with AirPods where they say, just leave them in.

00:39:17   And if they can come up with a benefit,

00:39:20   and we talked about like hearing aids and things like that.

00:39:23   If you talk about spoken announcements

00:39:27   and voice assistant and volume,

00:39:30   I'm not saying people are gonna wanna wear AirPods all day,

00:39:32   nor will the battery last that long.

00:39:34   But if you try to just sort of like extrapolate

00:39:37   and expand it, if you can't feel them, they last all day

00:39:42   and they provide you with a layer of information

00:39:45   on top of being able to hear everything in your world

00:39:48   crystal clear, at that point you would just leave them in all day. So it's an

00:39:53   interesting thing to think about that that in many ways AirPods are so much

00:39:56   further along that path than the rumored and not yet even introduced first

00:40:01   generation AR thing from Apple. But they're already there with the AirPods

00:40:06   so sky's the limit. I'm not sure I want AirPods in my ears all day long. I'm not

00:40:10   saying that but I'm saying... I mean I have mine in for a long time even when I'm

00:40:14   not listening to music. Like if I listen to something I just leave them in. I

00:40:17   I don't even think about it.

00:40:18   Like it's not even a conscious decision.

00:40:20   - Yeah, well that's going down the path, right?

00:40:22   - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:40:23   - So yeah, give me, and then if I've done it,

00:40:25   give me a reason.

00:40:26   - Especially if they're smart enough to filter out

00:40:29   the sounds you don't wanna hear,

00:40:30   but filter, but play through the sounds you do wanna hear,

00:40:33   which is sort of where they're going with that.

00:40:35   Like, so that you're not wandering around

00:40:38   in a noise canceled daze,

00:40:40   but it is modulating what you hear.

00:40:43   that's also very interesting for people,

00:40:47   and not just for people who need hearing aids,

00:40:49   but for everybody.

00:40:51   So I don't know, it's fascinating.

00:40:52   So anyway, those are my AirPods 2 Thoughts,

00:40:55   AirPods Pro 2 Thoughts.

00:40:56   Thank you for listening and for inspiring it

00:41:00   by you talking about how much you like them.

00:41:03   - I have some real-time follow-up.

00:41:05   - Okay.

00:41:05   - From Zach Hall of 9to5Mac.

00:41:07   My process starts with how can I make sure

00:41:10   this is an upgrade topic in reference

00:41:12   to the article about Johnny Ibe and the dating app.

00:41:16   Then there are these two TV+ tidbits

00:41:18   worthy of their own stories.

00:41:20   I didn't think so for 9to5Max format.

00:41:22   In retrospect, I would do two stories

00:41:24   if only for the sake of my mentions.

00:41:26   (laughing)

00:41:29   Sorry, Zach.

00:41:31   So there you go, Zach learned a valuable lesson.

00:41:33   - Now friend question mark of the show, Zach Hall.

00:41:36   (laughing)

00:41:38   I think it's interesting.

00:41:38   I mean, sorry, it's journalism inspired baseball,

00:41:40   but I was just sort of fascinated by it

00:41:42   that it was two things.

00:41:43   And I thought it was a process thing, right?

00:41:45   Like it was like, I've got two,

00:41:46   I've got two not particularly exciting tidbits

00:41:48   about Apple TV related stuff.

00:41:50   Let me roll them together.

00:41:51   I get it.

00:41:52   - So good.

00:41:53   Poor Zach.

00:41:56   'Cause I think nine to five Mac tweets out

00:41:58   with the writers handle as well.

00:42:01   And so every reply to that tweet

00:42:03   would have also gone to Zach, I guess.

00:42:06   Ooh, sometimes we make these decisions

00:42:08   and they accidentally ruin our day.

00:42:10   There's just nothing you can do about it.

00:42:12   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by CleanMyMac X. You want to make sure that

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00:44:20   So we are recording on Monday the 17th.

00:44:25   We are hurtling towards the end of October.

00:44:30   There were reports last week from Mark Gurman that iOS 16.1 is expected in the final fall

00:44:42   week of October, which is next week.

00:44:46   And Mark has also mentioned that previously in October, Apple has announced products during

00:44:52   their earnings call week, which is also next week.

00:44:58   So there is a possibility that sometime between now and the end of next week, there could

00:45:04   be an announcement of an event, there could be products added to the store, there could

00:45:09   be press releases, there could be press previews and briefings, we don't know.

00:45:15   But we want to think about what they could be, maybe kind of get that out there.

00:45:19   Because I think at this point, we're expecting we won't be drafting in October, right?

00:45:23   - I think probably not.

00:45:25   Like unless Apple, I think there's a possibility

00:45:30   that Apple would do something where they would say,

00:45:32   let's say tomorrow, you know, tune in next Tuesday

00:45:36   for a special video presentation.

00:45:38   I still think that's a possibility,

00:45:40   but it's just as likely that this is gonna be more

00:45:42   like those sort of what I call

00:45:44   the third tier product launches,

00:45:46   which is they just do briefings and a press release.

00:45:49   and it's not a big event beyond that.

00:45:53   And that depends on how big they feel it is.

00:45:56   - And so this seems too complicated to draft.

00:46:00   And we may still draft,

00:46:01   like if they announce an event tomorrow,

00:46:03   like we'll do a draft, right?

00:46:04   Like we will do one if there's gonna be a video event.

00:46:07   But in case that there isn't,

00:46:09   we wanted to at least kind of get out there

00:46:11   what we're thinking about in regards to what Apple

00:46:15   might be having for this month.

00:46:18   - Right, so where should we start, iPads?

00:46:23   - Let's start with iPad.

00:46:24   - Okay, so iPad OS has still, 16 has still not shipped.

00:46:28   Right, they pushed it to 16.1.

00:46:32   They took stage manager off the external displays.

00:46:34   They're doing bug fixes with external displays

00:46:37   or with the internal display

00:46:40   and they expanded the compatibility to older iPad Pros.

00:46:43   So that's all laying out there.

00:46:45   I assume that they're going to ship that

00:46:47   like Mark said, at the end of, sometime next week.

00:46:52   And presumably there is some pressure to ship that

00:46:56   because there's hardware that needs to ship with it, right?

00:47:00   And so that would mean that presumably

00:47:02   sometime this week or next,

00:47:04   they're gonna do a product announcement involving iPads

00:47:08   that will ship next week, maybe?

00:47:12   Right after iPadOS presumably would ship earlier in the week.

00:47:17   I mean, that's their pattern, right?

00:47:18   It's like the OS ships Tuesday or Wednesday,

00:47:20   Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

00:47:22   and then Friday the products come out, right?

00:47:27   - Yeah, that would make sense, right?

00:47:29   'Cause they tend to have the OS available

00:47:32   before the hardware, so it's already in there, right?

00:47:35   Like the support is already in there.

00:47:38   And yeah, it follows all of the,

00:47:40   I mean, I just genuinely, I just, you know,

00:47:43   being very close to Federico, right?

00:47:46   I just kind of can't believe that 16.1 is coming out.

00:47:49   Like I just, I can't get my head around it.

00:47:52   Like maybe there's another shoe to drop,

00:47:54   but like,

00:47:54   iPad OS 16.1 is very complicated

00:47:59   and the main feature is very messy.

00:48:02   - Yeah, it's messy.

00:48:03   Although, Federico has had some bad luck with it.

00:48:05   I think that it's more usable in certain circumstances,

00:48:07   but he's right.

00:48:08   I mean, it's got lots of problems.

00:48:10   I think what makes me think it doesn't matter

00:48:13   is that it's a mode that is off by default

00:48:16   that you have to turn on.

00:48:17   And I don't know what the current state of the little thing

00:48:20   that says, "Hey, introducing stage manager,

00:48:22   you could turn this on is."

00:48:24   But it would seem to me that would be a fairly easy switch

00:48:27   to flip off so that you don't ever tell anyone

00:48:30   stage manager is there,

00:48:32   and they would have to stumble upon it.

00:48:33   - It's like the two people with the keys

00:48:36   and they have to each turn them at the same time,

00:48:38   you know, and then you can launch stage manager.

00:48:39   - Exactly, and then you launch stage manager, yeah.

00:48:42   So, and you could turn it off if you don't like it.

00:48:45   if it breaks, you just turn it off, right?

00:48:46   So I think that you could, it's not great.

00:48:49   Don't get me wrong.

00:48:50   It's not great to ship a feature

00:48:51   that kind of doesn't work as planned

00:48:54   and tell people, "Well, just turn it off."

00:48:56   And we're working on it, but that may be where they are now.

00:48:59   - But 16.1 iOS has to come out soon

00:49:03   because of live activities, right?

00:49:04   Like you've got to get that out there

00:49:06   because that is a big part of the iPhone experience.

00:49:09   - iCloud shared photos.

00:49:11   iCloud shared photos too, right?

00:49:13   I assume that that feature is gonna ship.

00:49:16   I actually just, in the latest beta,

00:49:18   I noticed that all of my items

00:49:20   that I had moved into a shared folder

00:49:22   or shared library moved back into my library.

00:49:24   Which I think is they hit a,

00:49:28   I think they're preparing to ship it.

00:49:29   And so they hit a reset on everybody from the beta.

00:49:32   - So they're like, "Uh-uh, I don't think so."

00:49:35   - Thank you beta testers, back in your libraries.

00:49:38   Back, go back.

00:49:39   So, which is pretty funny, but like I kind of get it, right?

00:49:43   Like they're like, no, no, no, now that the beta test is over,

00:49:45   we're gonna push everything back and you can do it again,

00:49:47   which I did.

00:49:48   - Because for all we know, right?

00:49:49   One of the reasons it may have gotten delayed

00:49:51   was like they worked out that there was maybe some kind of

00:49:53   bug or an issue and they just wanted to make sure

00:49:55   they cleaned out anything before they like did the final,

00:49:58   like, all right, now we get to go.

00:50:00   - But, but so based on that, I'm inclined to believe

00:50:04   that they are gonna ship that.

00:50:06   And they haven't said later this year with that.

00:50:07   I feel like this 16.1 update and Ventura

00:50:10   are all gonna come out simultaneously.

00:50:12   and they're all gonna have the shared library too.

00:50:14   So they do need to get it out there.

00:50:15   And leaving aside,

00:50:16   the hardware is probably calibrated as well, right?

00:50:19   If there are new Macs,

00:50:20   they're probably meant to only run on Ventura.

00:50:22   And if there are new iPads,

00:50:23   they're probably only meant to run on 16.1 and later.

00:50:27   And therefore they need to ship the OSs

00:50:30   because they've got hardware that is presumably holding

00:50:33   for the shipment.

00:50:34   So that's where we are.

00:50:36   In terms of iPad devices, right?

00:50:38   Like the rumors are iPad Pro refresh

00:50:41   and the base level iPad.

00:50:45   And the iPad Pro refresh might not be that exciting, right?

00:50:48   It's like from M1 to M2.

00:50:50   There was a report today that over the weekend, Ross Youngs,

00:50:57   the display analyst said that the 11 inch iPad Pro

00:51:01   was not gonna get the mini LED illumination

00:51:04   and was gonna keep its old screen.

00:51:06   - Oh my God, are you being serious?

00:51:08   - I am absolutely 100% serious.

00:51:10   - That is ridiculous.

00:51:13   - Sorry to have broken it here.

00:51:15   I should have put that in the show notes, yeah.

00:51:17   - Wow, I didn't see this.

00:51:18   That's, I can't believe that.

00:51:20   That seemed like a lock in to me.

00:51:24   Like that you would, it's been ages now.

00:51:27   That's wild, that is really wild

00:51:29   that they haven't worked that out

00:51:31   or they're not gonna do that.

00:51:32   I'm very surprised about that.

00:51:33   - Yeah, well if that's true, that's not great.

00:51:40   because that was the one thing I think that a lot of people

00:51:42   like you were holding onto was like,

00:51:44   finally the smaller one is gonna get that feature

00:51:47   and that display and that would be a reason to update.

00:51:49   And so if not, I mean, first question that I have for you is

00:51:52   what's enabled in new iPad Pros other than like,

00:51:59   okay, if they come out and it's literally the same displays

00:52:02   as last time and it's an M2, what else is there?

00:52:06   There's rumors of charging differences

00:52:09   and magnetic charging, that was a rumor.

00:52:12   - Mm-hmm, some kind of mag safe.

00:52:14   - Like, is there a, Federico last week,

00:52:17   I know when connected was talking about,

00:52:19   you know, it's been a while since Apple Pencil 2,

00:52:21   would there be an Apple Pencil 3?

00:52:23   I mean, that's more of an accessory related thing,

00:52:25   but we could leave that aside for a minute,

00:52:27   'cause there are accessory questions with the iPad,

00:52:29   there always are.

00:52:30   The iPad is as much an accessory platform

00:52:34   as it is a computing device, right?

00:52:35   Like the iPad is it and its accessories,

00:52:39   and how you choose to build them up.

00:52:40   But like, can you think, like, what do they say

00:52:44   in terms of an M2 iPad Pro?

00:52:47   Like, what more is enabled with that?

00:52:51   - I don't really think anything.

00:52:52   I think this is probably going to be as boring an update

00:52:57   as the 2020 update.

00:52:59   - Right.

00:53:00   Well, and so that's the answer.

00:53:02   That's one reason why it's not an event

00:53:04   is that it is a spec bump

00:53:05   and they're just getting it on the latest processors

00:53:08   and that's it. And that maybe they add MagSafe, right, in some form. Right, which is, which is,

00:53:16   do you have a prediction about what that might look like? I mean, my initial thought is that it

00:53:21   would be more like the Mac, right, but now there is a rumor that Apple is potentially looking at

00:53:28   adding a functionality like the new, the Pixel tablet, where you can like mount it to a little

00:53:36   stand and it becomes like a part of your like it's basically like a home part of

00:53:41   a screen yeah and if then it would make sense that the iPad would have a magnet

00:53:46   in the back right so I think having it be MagSafe would be great although it's

00:53:51   pretty thin however there's the keyboard issue right and I started to think about

00:53:56   like if you've got a magnetic charger thingy and it's on the side do you have

00:54:02   to build your keyboard, like if you want the keyboard

00:54:05   to have power and have that port on the side still,

00:54:09   like that you can plug in for power,

00:54:11   you would need, like you still have to have

00:54:15   the magnetic connection on the back.

00:54:17   And I started to think about it and I'm like,

00:54:19   are they gonna do that?

00:54:19   Are they gonna add a thing on the side

00:54:21   and still have the smart connector on the back?

00:54:23   Is that a thing they're gonna do?

00:54:25   And it makes me more inclined to believe

00:54:27   that what they're gonna do is upgrade the smart connector

00:54:31   to be MagSafe compatible,

00:54:35   but still also be a smart connector.

00:54:37   - Which MagSafe?

00:54:38   - Well, which MagSafe?

00:54:42   iPhone MagSafe, I'm assuming at that point,

00:54:45   but it's weird, right?

00:54:47   'Cause ergonomically iPhone MagSafe on an iPad is like,

00:54:50   that's not great.

00:54:53   And does that require them to redesign the Magic Keyboard?

00:55:00   Well, I mean, this is the question of accessories.

00:55:04   Will they actually just redesign the Magic Keyboard?

00:55:07   - Right. - Right?

00:55:08   Will they do that?

00:55:09   Maybe.

00:55:10   - And that's what sets M2 iPad Pro apart,

00:55:13   is really it uses the fancy new Magic Keyboard

00:55:15   that has a function row and different whatever

00:55:19   (laughs)

00:55:20   that allows it to be more spooky, right?

00:55:23   - And that would make it enough for an update, right?

00:55:25   Because as Zach has pointed out in Discord,

00:55:27   which is a great point, it's like,

00:55:29   The iPad Pro hardware is great, there isn't really much that you realistically need to

00:55:33   do to it to make an update.

00:55:36   I think the 11 inch will just be an even more of a sad product I think if it doesn't get

00:55:42   the new.

00:55:43   I used to say the 11 inch iPad Pro was like the best iPad you could buy and now it's getting

00:55:49   hard for me to say I really like the iPad Air maybe is that now.

00:55:52   Except for the, depending on what they announce, except for the price to storage is not good.

00:55:58   on the iPad Air, like the base storage is really low,

00:56:02   but the 11 inch is just so great.

00:56:05   And it would be even better if they gave it

00:56:06   the new cool screen too, but yeah.

00:56:10   - I'm not saying that this will happen,

00:56:12   but I have a little bit,

00:56:16   hearing you talk about the 11 inch,

00:56:17   just I put a little chill in my heart

00:56:20   because we've been saying for a while now

00:56:23   that the iPad Air is really infringes

00:56:26   on a lot of the iPad Pro 11 inch space.

00:56:31   Not completely, like it doesn't have ProMotion.

00:56:33   There's things it doesn't have, but it's real close.

00:56:36   And there's also that rumor floating out there,

00:56:40   not probably for this event,

00:56:41   but that there may be a larger iPad coming.

00:56:45   A 15 inch, let's say iPad Pro or iPad Studio,

00:56:49   whatever you wanna call it.

00:56:51   I wonder if where Apple is headed

00:56:56   based on the current trajectory of the iPad

00:56:58   is that the 11 inch iPad Pro

00:57:00   is more like a vestigial iPad Pro.

00:57:04   And that in the end, they're the two big iPad Pros.

00:57:08   And if you want something smaller, you get the iPad Air.

00:57:11   - Yep.

00:57:12   Yep, I like that a lot.

00:57:13   Yep.

00:57:15   - I mean, I don't know if you like it.

00:57:16   'Cause it means you have to choose between a 12.9 or an Air.

00:57:19   - Well, I mean, I like it.

00:57:19   - And not have that sweet promotion on the middle.

00:57:22   - But I think it makes sense.

00:57:23   I would prefer to see them push the iPad bigger than--

00:57:27   - iPad Pro, right?

00:57:29   Well, and iPad Pro, right?

00:57:30   Like what is left to push the iPad Pro as a platform, right?

00:57:33   You've got the iPad Air.

00:57:34   Like we said, the iPad Pro already is pretty powerful,

00:57:38   but like what more is there to do?

00:57:39   Well, one thing is to continue to push it up

00:57:42   and make a bigger one and have a new keyboard case

00:57:45   that does even more stuff and a bigger screen.

00:57:48   Let me tell you, a stage manager would be much better

00:57:51   on a 15 inch screen than on the 12.9 inch screen,

00:57:55   let alone the 11 inch screen, right?

00:57:57   The bigger screen, the better for stage manager.

00:57:59   So if that's where they're going,

00:58:01   then maybe the 11 inch iPad Pro,

00:58:03   the answer is it's not long for this world

00:58:06   because you should just get an iPad Air at that point.

00:58:09   And the view of the iPad Pro is even like further up,

00:58:14   bigger and more expensive.

00:58:15   I don't know.

00:58:17   But I think for this one,

00:58:18   I suspect what we're going to get is the 12.9 and the 11 as they are except with M2 and

00:58:25   then some accessories, right? Maybe a new keyboard, maybe a new pencil, and charging

00:58:30   some sort of charging story. But yeah, my gut feeling is that it's going to be, essentially,

00:58:37   it's going to be iPhone MagSafe because of what I said before, which is I don't see Mac

00:58:44   MagSafe working on the side. I'd love to be wrong. Really, I would love to be wrong, but

00:58:49   I don't see it. What about the Mac? Well, Ventura. Yep. Right. Mm-hmm. The current rumor

00:58:59   rumors seem pretty good, like, and also pretty boring, which again points to why this might

00:59:05   not even be an event, a virtual event, is, okay, MacBook Pro, which, which here's a funny

00:59:11   pretty boring and yet for our audience and our community,

00:59:16   'cause the MacBook Air is like the definitive Mac,

00:59:21   but for our audience and community,

00:59:22   I think the MacBook Pro is the definitive Mac.

00:59:24   Like the really serious computery people.

00:59:28   And so it's not boring to have an M2 Pro and Macs processor

00:59:33   in MacBook Pros, right?

00:59:37   Like if they do that and it's the new processor types

00:59:41   that are based on M2, like what is,

00:59:43   and we get a story about like what's in the M2

00:59:46   high-end processors that we haven't seen before.

00:59:49   For our audience, that's really, actually really exciting.

00:59:55   Even if the M2 MacBook Pro hardware is not changed

00:59:58   in any way, which I wouldn't expect it would be.

01:00:00   - Don't think so, I don't think that's gonna happen.

01:00:02   - No reason. - No, it's fantastic.

01:00:04   - They just got where they are, they're doing good.

01:00:07   And that's the thing that gives me pause

01:00:08   about Apple not making a bigger deal with this is,

01:00:11   I mean, they can do a press release and post a video

01:00:13   that's just Johnny Shroogee talking about how amazing it is,

01:00:16   but like, wouldn't you want to get people's attention

01:00:18   for that?

01:00:18   Maybe it's not enough.

01:00:19   And maybe it's too nerdy for everybody,

01:00:21   but for our audience, that's huge.

01:00:23   That's like, wait, there's new high-end M2 processors,

01:00:26   tell me more.

01:00:27   And I have to imagine there will be,

01:00:30   like the rumors certainly point to that.

01:00:32   It's a lot less interesting if the Mac Pro isn't there,

01:00:36   'cause then we're left with the Mac Mini,

01:00:40   which I love the Mac Mini.

01:00:41   And this is one of those holes in the lineup

01:00:44   that many people have pointed out

01:00:46   where you can't buy a desktop computer

01:00:49   with a Mac's processor,

01:00:54   no, a Pro processor in it, right?

01:00:56   You can get the Macs and the Ultra in the Mac studio

01:00:59   and you can get these straight up M1

01:01:01   in the iMac and the Mac Mini,

01:01:03   but then there's a gap, a performance gap between them.

01:01:07   And there's still the kind of Intel Mac Mini

01:01:09   hanging out on the price charts because even Apple knows

01:01:13   that that M1 Mac Mini is not powerful enough

01:01:15   for a lot of the uses that the Mac Mini is put to.

01:01:17   So seems like it's Mac Mini's time to shine,

01:01:22   where it picks up an M2 presumably,

01:01:28   and also a configuration that's got

01:01:30   that higher end M2 processor.

01:01:32   And my only question there is,

01:01:34   are they gonna have two Mac Minis,

01:01:35   the silver one and the space gray one,

01:01:38   and the Space Gray one is the high-end one,

01:01:40   'cause that's how they did it with the last Intel one,

01:01:44   is like the Space Gray, it's like,

01:01:45   "No, it's a very serious Mac Mini, it's slightly darker."

01:01:48   I don't know.

01:01:50   - Yeah, you can tell, 'cause it's dark, it's for pros.

01:01:52   Yeah, I wonder if the M2 processors

01:01:58   might not be that much of a story either.

01:02:01   - Could be, I mean, right, they could just say,

01:02:06   "We updated the cores and they're faster."

01:02:07   I mean, that is, I think there's one way to look

01:02:11   at the M2 cycle, which is that it is

01:02:13   a very quiet processor cycle update.

01:02:17   Like it's better, but only a little bit better.

01:02:19   And that perhaps Apple is even kind of poised

01:02:22   to wait until M3 for the big leap.

01:02:25   And that M2 is a little bit more of a placeholder.

01:02:27   - Yeah.

01:02:28   - There's an argument to be made that that's the case.

01:02:31   - Oh, and also it's like, we shouldn't get too like,

01:02:35   lost in the idea that the original M1 chips

01:02:37   were so big a departure,

01:02:40   but that future chips might just be much more iterative

01:02:45   on the original architecture, right?

01:02:47   - For sure, for sure.

01:02:48   I keep thinking that they're gonna probably,

01:02:50   this is true, like we're not gonna get another leap

01:02:54   like we did to M1 because we were coming from Intel

01:02:56   and now we're not.

01:02:57   But what I would say is that they integrated

01:02:59   a bunch of stuff that was in the M2 Pro

01:03:01   or in the M1 Pro into the M2 base model,

01:03:04   which makes me think they've got some stuff

01:03:07   in the higher end M2s to bring in there

01:03:10   so that there's some story there.

01:03:11   That is a subtle esoteric and super nerdy argument,

01:03:14   but for our audience, it's actually kind of important.

01:03:16   For the general public, probably not.

01:03:19   James Thompson is pointing out that there's some question

01:03:22   about would the Macs even ship until November?

01:03:24   Would they announce them later?

01:03:25   If they do press releases, they could totally stagger it

01:03:27   and have an iPad announcement this week or next,

01:03:31   and then a Mac announcement a couple of weeks after that.

01:03:34   it would be fine if they could do that with the rolling thunder or they could just do

01:03:38   it all at once. So we'll see. But anyway, I predict now that if we see these Macs in

01:03:46   the next couple of weeks, regardless of where they ship, I think you're right, Myke. I mean,

01:03:50   bet on boring. That's bet on boring because otherwise they would make, unless they hold

01:03:55   an event, boring is probably what it is. But boring for the general public doesn't mean

01:04:00   and it's boring for us,

01:04:01   because I think there'll be interesting things

01:04:03   in the M2 Pro and Macs,

01:04:05   even if the M2 as a processor generation

01:04:10   is a pretty light upgrade,

01:04:12   there are things they could potentially stuff in there

01:04:14   that might also show the way to a Mac Pro

01:04:18   with an even higher end chip in it.

01:04:21   But I don't think they'll actually say anything

01:04:24   about the Mac Pro is my guess, right?

01:04:26   Like, why would you do that?

01:04:27   - We're never gonna see it.

01:04:28   It's a product that's never gonna come out.

01:04:31   - It's just, you know, once a year we light the candle

01:04:36   and leave the door unlocked and put out a placemat

01:04:40   and leave some cookies and we say,

01:04:42   maybe the Mac Pro will come.

01:04:44   You clear off a spot on the desk,

01:04:45   you leave a power, like a power strip there

01:04:47   and you say, tonight's the night that we wait

01:04:49   for the Mac Pro and everybody knows

01:04:50   it's not gonna appear, but.

01:04:53   - The further it moves away from,

01:04:56   like say, whenever it was, maybe WBC, I don't remember,

01:04:59   the funnier it is that they actually referenced it, right?

01:05:03   That like in the event,

01:05:04   - Yeah. - John Thanos is like,

01:05:05   - It's coming. - It's coming.

01:05:06   And then like the further we get away from that,

01:05:08   it's like, why did you even say it?

01:05:10   Like you didn't even need to,

01:05:12   you didn't need to say it, like, we're fine either way, but.

01:05:15   - I think they did it to basically claim victory.

01:05:19   And say, it really doesn't count.

01:05:23   Like with the Mac Pro, we've done everything,

01:05:24   except the Mac Pro and nobody, nobody cares about that one.

01:05:27   So we're fine.

01:05:28   We're fine.

01:05:29   And then all the, all the Mac nerds in the back are like,

01:05:32   and the high end Mac mini, like, oh, right.

01:05:36   Okay, well maybe they'll claim victory again.

01:05:39   Maybe they'll like, with it,

01:05:40   with the introduction of this high end Mac mini,

01:05:42   now we've completed the transition except for the Mac Pro.

01:05:45   - Mission accomplished.

01:05:46   - Just make us wait a little bit longer.

01:05:50   Anything else you think that they might announce

01:05:52   in the next couple of weeks?

01:05:53   Is there anything else out there?

01:05:55   - I doubt it really.

01:05:56   Like there's always stuff on the horizon,

01:05:58   but like I can't imagine hardware.

01:06:00   I mean, the only other thing is like,

01:06:01   I was 16.1 on live activities, right?

01:06:03   Which you kind of touched on, but like,

01:06:05   I've started to get some betas

01:06:08   that have live activity support.

01:06:10   Live activity support is awesome.

01:06:12   It's really good.

01:06:13   It's really good.

01:06:15   And so I've only got three apps that support it right now.

01:06:19   and I am very excited for more of them.

01:06:24   Something I did not know,

01:06:26   if you have two kind of concurrent live activities going on,

01:06:30   they just stack.

01:06:32   Like I don't know how many you can have at a time,

01:06:35   like on your lock screen,

01:06:36   but like I currently have had in the past like two apps,

01:06:41   they're both running live activities

01:06:44   and they're both visible to me.

01:06:46   I thought that was interesting.

01:06:47   - That's great. - Like it's just

01:06:48   apps as well as obviously with the 14 Pro showing in the Dynamic Island and

01:06:54   that kind of stuff so yeah I'm I'm very excited about live activity support in

01:07:00   the apps that I use so I'm very keen to see where this where this goes and I

01:07:05   expect this will be something that will be adopted by also a lot of mainstream

01:07:10   developers pretty quickly because I think it benefits a lot of them you know

01:07:13   like your Ubers of the world you're like we'll use deliver here but like

01:07:18   Doordash, like all these kinds of companies.

01:07:19   - Sports stuff.

01:07:20   - Yeah.

01:07:21   - I was thinking this will be great,

01:07:22   a great third party opportunity for the Mac.

01:07:25   Follow me here.

01:07:26   One of the great things, and again,

01:07:27   this is an opportunity Apple should probably participate in

01:07:30   and sync across devices, but failing that,

01:07:32   I was thinking of something like pushover,

01:07:35   which I've complained about before,

01:07:36   but it's the idea that Apple should probably

01:07:39   facilitate the ability to send push notifications

01:07:41   across all your devices from your devices and they don't.

01:07:44   So you have to do something like use an app like pushover

01:07:47   to say, oh, a thing happened on my Mac,

01:07:50   why don't you tell my iPhone in a push notification?

01:07:53   It's dumb, but I think about that for live activities too.

01:07:56   Like what if I set a video encode on my Mac?

01:07:59   Like, wouldn't it be cool to have like a live activity

01:08:01   on my iPhone that showed me where it was

01:08:04   in the process of encoding?

01:08:06   That would be awesome.

01:08:07   Anyway, it's just a thought.

01:08:09   You know me, Myke, I've already always got a Mac angle.

01:08:12   - Well, I mean, you're the Mac guy, right?

01:08:14   - New iPhone features and I go,

01:08:16   but what about the Mac?

01:08:17   How will that work with the Mac?

01:08:18   How can the dynamic island affect the Mac?

01:08:21   My column does not.

01:08:24   - The entire column.

01:08:27   No, it doesn't.

01:08:29   - No, no, no, Myke, you can't do it that way.

01:08:31   Pro tip, you gotta, it's 800 words.

01:08:33   So it's gotta be like,

01:08:34   while many iPhone users are fascinated

01:08:36   by the dynamic island,

01:08:38   the Mac users are left to wonder what it means for them.

01:08:40   Well, I have some surprising thoughts about that.

01:08:43   And then you go on, the first section is like,

01:08:45   Listen to this, we're really getting the inside track on journalism today.

01:08:49   Let me give you the background about the Magn- oh you know the the island was introduced in

01:08:54   2022 and la la and then it's like oh now let's think about the notch on the MacBook Pro. Would

01:09:01   that be a place for the dynamic island? Well no probably not because it's just a big notch

01:09:07   and so in conclusion probably not. Have you written this article yet or are you just about to?

01:09:15   that is the thought process that goes through my head whenever I write an article like that,

01:09:18   a think piece article. Fortunately, when I'm, especially when it's the, you know,

01:09:24   Macworld wants one of these every week, I think through these topics and I sometimes,

01:09:29   right, you put them through the grinder of like, is this gonna work? Because I'm not gonna write it

01:09:35   and get 500 words in and go, "Oh my god, this is nothing." At least I'm not gonna do that that

01:09:40   often. It's like 40 columns a year, it can happen. But ideally what you want to do is put it through

01:09:46   the little like virtual machine of what would this column be and what would be its bolt points and

01:09:50   how would it work. And with something like that inane idea, you get to the end and you'd be like,

01:09:56   "No. Nope, that's not a column. Delete. That's not the topic." And then you find one that actually

01:10:04   bears enough weight that you can get 800 words out of it. But the structure is the same, it's

01:10:08   It's just that that would be a completely empty pointless

01:10:10   column, and they shouldn't pay me for it, which is why

01:10:13   I wouldn't have written it.

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01:11:38   We finish out today's ques- uh, bleh bleh, did we finish out today's show?

01:11:43   We've asked upgrade questions. We don't think it's finished today's question. We've asked upgrade show.

01:11:48   You're having trouble. We better end this thing. Just fire the lasers so we can move on.

01:11:52   Choo choo choo choo.

01:11:54   Paul wants to know, "Jason, do you have any updates on your experience with the schlag enclosed

01:11:59   closed in code plus door lock. Schlag. Schlag. It's totally Americanized. Schlage. Schlage

01:12:06   is what it should be but it's Schlag. Any updates? Well, Paul sent this in on Twitter

01:12:11   and I sent Paul a link to my story about it on Six Colors dot com. Yeah but that was then.

01:12:17   This is now. Right? Yeah, it works. It's good. It's solid. Home key is great. There's now

01:12:25   Now a new lock that's got home key that's out.

01:12:28   And it's interesting 'cause it's basically

01:12:30   like a smart lock that hides inside a key lock.

01:12:33   - I think that one looks awesome.

01:12:35   It's called like the level lock or something.

01:12:37   - Yeah, yeah.

01:12:38   So they've got a new model that's got home key support

01:12:41   which is NFC.

01:12:42   It's basically on your Apple Watch or your iPhone.

01:12:45   You have a home key and wallet.

01:12:46   You set it as your active home key

01:12:48   and you just tap and it unlocks.

01:12:51   Now I like having the keypad on mine actually

01:12:55   because it allows us to do things like

01:12:57   if we have somebody staying here,

01:12:58   how sitter, for example, we give her a code

01:13:01   and she can enter it in.

01:13:02   We don't have to give her a key, a spare key,

01:13:03   but we could do that.

01:13:05   And that level lock is that.

01:13:06   So no one even knows it's anything but a regular lock

01:13:09   with a key hole in it,

01:13:12   but it's actually this NFC lock.

01:13:16   And so, yeah, you tap and it opens,

01:13:19   which is, that was my problem with my old lock is that,

01:13:21   you know, it's trying to use Bluetooth shenanigans

01:13:23   and not doing a very good job of it.

01:13:25   and it would only open some of the time for us.

01:13:27   And now if I come up to the front door

01:13:29   and I'm kind of perfecting my gesture

01:13:31   of basically laying my Apple Watch

01:13:33   on the square of the keypad and it unlocks the door.

01:13:37   It's a, so I'm liking it,

01:13:39   but that level lock looks interesting too.

01:13:43   - I'm gonna put a link in the show notes

01:13:45   to Quinn Nelson did a YouTube, like did a short.

01:13:48   - It's a little video, yeah.

01:13:50   - And I just think it looks great

01:13:52   'cause like this one just looks like a lock

01:13:54   and it doesn't look like a smart lock.

01:13:56   And I think that there's something nice about that,

01:13:58   particularly.

01:13:59   - Oh, I agree.

01:14:01   - None of these things are available in the UK yet.

01:14:04   One day they will be, and then I'll be happy.

01:14:05   - One day.

01:14:06   And there's different standards for building,

01:14:08   which is part of the problem, right?

01:14:10   Like our American locks are weird

01:14:12   compared to many of the locks that are in the UK,

01:14:15   but you could get your big smart home buddy

01:14:19   to send them to you and then just put them in your door

01:14:22   and just have an American door.

01:14:24   American door. Yeah, I wouldn't mind an American door.

01:14:27   You know, like how we have American fridges?

01:14:29   Do you know about this?

01:14:30   - Do you have that?

01:14:31   Wait, what?

01:14:32   - Any fridge that's got two doors

01:14:35   is known here as an American fridge.

01:14:37   - Which is great 'cause I think we call those French doors.

01:14:41   - Really? - I think.

01:14:43   - French doors are a thing that I know of like as doors.

01:14:47   That's funny. - Yeah.

01:14:49   - It's like French fries, you know?

01:14:51   - Right, they're from Belgium.

01:14:53   No, but like, you know, French, so they freedom doors?

01:14:56   (laughs)

01:14:59   - In certain parts of this country, probably so.

01:15:01   - Freedom doors.

01:15:01   - But really, Myke, when you think about it,

01:15:02   aren't all doors freedom doors?

01:15:05   - No.

01:15:06   - If they're open.

01:15:07   - What if it's jail?

01:15:08   - And unlocked.

01:15:08   - Yeah, it depends on what side you're on, right?

01:15:12   As to whether a door is a freedom door.

01:15:13   - No, if the door is open, it's freedom to go in or out.

01:15:15   - Yeah, but if the door is closed on you and locked,

01:15:17   it's no longer a freedom door.

01:15:18   - Then it's not freedom anymore.

01:15:19   No, that's true.

01:15:20   But isn't that the locks problem, not the doors problem?

01:15:23   The door is made to swing, otherwise it's a wall.

01:15:26   - What if it's a sliding door?

01:15:29   Does that make a difference?

01:15:31   - Well, that's why we call them sliding doors,

01:15:33   'cause they're different.

01:15:33   - Right, okay.

01:15:34   - And pocket doors, of course, slide on the inside

01:15:37   and you can put them in your pocket.

01:15:38   - European fridges, they're typically like fridge

01:15:41   and freezer stacked on top of each other, right?

01:15:43   Like it's just one column, 'cause they're slim,

01:15:46   because smaller homes, right?

01:15:49   So we have just slim fridges. - Oh, right, yeah, sure.

01:15:51   But if you get a fridge that has like,

01:15:52   you open two doors left and right,

01:15:54   you got like the freezer on the left

01:15:56   and the fridge on the right or whatever,

01:15:57   that is an American fridge.

01:15:58   - Oh, I see, I see.

01:15:59   Oh, we call it, well, so that we call a Side-by-Side.

01:16:02   - Okay, when does French doors come into the mix then?

01:16:05   - Well, my refrigerator is French doors

01:16:09   and that's the, it's actually on the,

01:16:13   the freezer's on the bottom and it slides out.

01:16:15   - Oh, I would still call it an American fridge

01:16:17   just 'cause it has two doors.

01:16:18   If it has two doors next to each other.

01:16:19   - But the refrigerators are on the,

01:16:20   - The refrigerator's on the top

01:16:22   and it has two doors that open instead of one.

01:16:25   - Yeah, the configuration is not so much of the,

01:16:28   for us, the reason you call it an American fridge

01:16:30   is if it has two doors that open side by side,

01:16:33   no matter how it's arranged,

01:16:34   even if the freezer's on the bottom

01:16:36   or the freezer's on one side or whatever.

01:16:38   - Well, we sort of different,

01:16:40   I mean, French doors are becoming more of the norm here,

01:16:42   but we sort of differentiate that versus a side,

01:16:45   like I grew up with a side by side,

01:16:46   which is it's one unit and there's a long,

01:16:50   or there's a tall door on the right

01:16:52   that is the refrigerator and a tall door on the left

01:16:54   that is the freezer.

01:16:55   That's what I grew up with.

01:16:57   - Yeah, okay.

01:16:59   - And we wouldn't have,

01:17:00   I don't think we would have called that French doors.

01:17:01   We would have just called that a side-by-side.

01:17:04   All right, well, this is good stuff, good knowledge,

01:17:07   robot or not, that's the question.

01:17:09   - Fridge or not.

01:17:09   Next question comes from Tim.

01:17:13   Jason is a firm believer in page turn buttons on e-readers,

01:17:18   but I have never heard him talk about the option

01:17:21   to scroll with an e-reader.

01:17:23   I tend to read eBooks on iPads

01:17:25   and find that a wonderful way to move forward.

01:17:28   What are Jason's thoughts on scrolling with e-readers?

01:17:31   - So first off, everybody should read

01:17:34   in the way that they like.

01:17:35   I heard from some people who said,

01:17:37   "Why do you like page turn buttons?

01:17:38   I hate them.

01:17:39   I press them by accident.

01:17:41   I prefer to just tap the screen."

01:17:43   I'm glad that you feel that way and it works for you.

01:17:46   I hate it.

01:17:47   I hate the taps, the taps aren't always accurate.

01:17:51   And on the Kobo, you can actually turn the taps off

01:17:54   because also if you wanna brush dust off your screen,

01:17:57   it advances the page and I don't like that.

01:18:00   And the clicking of a page turn button,

01:18:05   I can rest my thumb on the page turn button

01:18:08   and all I have to do is press it and press it and press it.

01:18:11   I don't move my hand.

01:18:12   And I know this is a minor thing,

01:18:15   but I don't really like the ergonomics

01:18:17   of having to get a nice grip on the e-reader

01:18:20   and then change the grip to turn a page

01:18:23   by moving my finger or thumb over,

01:18:26   having it cover part of the screen temporarily,

01:18:29   touch it, hope that the page actually turns,

01:18:31   and then move it back and go back to my original grip.

01:18:34   I'd much rather keep one grip the whole time.

01:18:36   So that's basically the source of it.

01:18:37   And I find the page turn buttons to be much more reliable.

01:18:40   Also, some people like scrolling, like Tim.

01:18:45   Scrolling on e-ink is not good.

01:18:47   So that's the first thing is these e-ink readers.

01:18:50   I have that one that I tried out.

01:18:52   That's the Android e-ink reader where you run Android.

01:18:55   And I thought it would be really interesting.

01:18:57   And it was interesting,

01:18:58   but it was kind of ultimately a failure, I think.

01:19:00   And it, they had a thing where they were using,

01:19:04   essentially they were doing a key,

01:19:06   like keyboard emulation kind of thing

01:19:07   to do page turn buttons,

01:19:08   because while you could scroll,

01:19:11   you really wouldn't want to.

01:19:12   Just the way the refreshing of an e-ink screen works.

01:19:15   it's bad.

01:19:16   On an iPad, I think it's interesting

01:19:20   that Tim really loves to scroll.

01:19:23   I don't like scrolling long documents.

01:19:25   I find it very fiddly to have to, you know,

01:19:29   I am constantly scrolling up and up and up.

01:19:31   I really do prefer,

01:19:33   and that's one of the reasons I prefer an E Ink reader

01:19:36   is if it's a very, very long thing like a book,

01:19:39   'cause I've done that on my iPhone, right?

01:19:40   Like I'm at the doctor's office

01:19:41   and I don't have my E reader with me,

01:19:45   but I want, and I'm waiting for an unknown amount of time,

01:19:48   I will load the e-reader app on my phone.

01:19:52   And even there, I've tried it in scroll mode

01:19:55   and I just don't like it.

01:19:57   Which is not to say that I don't scroll through Twitter

01:19:58   and I don't scroll through my RSS readers

01:20:00   and I don't scroll web pages.

01:20:01   I do all those things, but there's, I don't know,

01:20:04   something about knowing that this book is going on

01:20:06   for thousands and thousands of pages.

01:20:09   I don't, I just don't wanna scroll it.

01:20:11   I just, and above a certain amount,

01:20:14   even on a very long, like a magazine article on the web, I get a little uncomfortable after

01:20:19   a while with the fact that I'm going to be scrolling this thing forever. Plus, I find

01:20:22   scrolling distracting because I end up putting my thumb on the screen and going like, "Scroll

01:20:25   up down," like wiggling it around a little bit and that's no good, like, "Mmm." I don't,

01:20:31   anyway. But everybody has their own preferred method. I just, that's mine.

01:20:36   So scroll or not to scroll?

01:20:38   Hmm. Is it robot or not again?

01:20:41   Mm-hmm.

01:20:43   Nathan asked, "Should folks with smart home accessories wait until new matter products

01:20:49   reach the market or should we continue buying existing home kit or echo or whatever products?

01:20:56   I'm considering some security cameras, doorbells, door locks and maybe a thermostat."

01:21:03   My recommendation to you Nathan is that if you do not need to buy any smart home product

01:21:08   right now, don't.

01:21:09   Just wait.

01:21:10   Like wait.

01:21:11   We are just a few weeks away from the Matter thing being officially unveiled or whatever

01:21:17   and I expect that we might at that point get even more details than we have now.

01:21:21   I don't think it's a good time to buy anything smart home related unless you are confident

01:21:27   as to whether it will or will not support Matter.

01:21:31   I think it's going to be much more beneficial for you in the sense of future compatibility

01:21:39   way because I do genuinely believe, I am a matter believer, right? Like I think it's

01:21:45   going to be very beneficial, I'm excited about it. I think that you're best knowing

01:21:51   that question beforehand. I agree 100%. If you can put it off, put it off because

01:21:57   they're in the midst of a text transition. After we get through the

01:22:00   transition it will be clear what things have been transitioned and what the

01:22:03   story is. There will probably be some products that fade away if they aren't

01:22:06   gone already. Everybody else will have a story about like, "Well, this is how it works."

01:22:11   If you can avoid it, avoid it for now. And especially if you're going to make a big investment

01:22:17   in a whole bunch of stuff, I would hold off until we know what the details are with matter

01:22:21   and how it shakes out. If you can't, I would say just shop very carefully and try to buy

01:22:27   things from companies that have professed a desire to provide a matter compatibility

01:22:33   for that product, right? You can do that. It's just extra work to do it if you can avoid

01:22:36   it I would say like Myke avoid it last question comes from Brants what are the

01:22:41   ideal objects to stick stickers on oh boy I think laptops I do think laptops

01:22:47   are good and I have actually stuck a couple of stickers on my MacBook Air

01:22:50   which I've not done in a really long time much to my wife's upset I'm sure

01:22:57   because when we sell the devices Adina does is very good at like doing all the

01:23:03   eBay stuff and so she kind of like prefers the devices and that kind of

01:23:08   stuff and gets them ready to be sold which when I've stuck stickers on

01:23:12   devices also requires removing the stickers which could be like a whole

01:23:16   thing and so I've stopped doing it except now I have done it on my MacBook Air.

01:23:21   The stickers that we have for the St. Jude campaign which include these little

01:23:25   character versions which are officially called X-Ray Man and Mr. Yellow one is

01:23:30   is me one is Stephen, they're very good looking

01:23:34   as laptop stickers and I have gone ahead and done that.

01:23:38   - I am not a big sticker person.

01:23:42   I have some stickers on the little pencil case on my desk.

01:23:46   I have some stickers on my iPod HiFi,

01:23:50   which I used to have on my desk that's now in the corner,

01:23:52   but I can see a little upgrade sticker over there.

01:23:54   Some other stickers over there.

01:23:55   I would say I put a lot of stickers on,

01:23:58   when I, well, I don't put a lot of stickers on anything,

01:24:00   But when I put stickers on something,

01:24:01   it's something sort of non-essential

01:24:03   that I'm not too worried about.

01:24:04   I have a sticker on my iPad smart keyboard.

01:24:11   I thought about doing more there.

01:24:14   I had one on the previous one

01:24:16   and there was something about putting stickers

01:24:19   on the accessory and not the iPad

01:24:21   that for some reason makes me feel okay,

01:24:23   which I find it's kind of funny,

01:24:26   but I feel okay about that.

01:24:27   So my previous iPad keyboard, I gotta be honest,

01:24:30   One of the reasons that I am hesitant about stickers,

01:24:32   and I've got lots of stickers that are unstuck,

01:24:35   is I hate, when I fix a sticker on something

01:24:40   it means that it's life is now,

01:24:42   it's living its best life, but its life is now temporary.

01:24:46   And when that product goes away, the sticker's life ends.

01:24:51   And so if I really like a sticker,

01:24:52   I end up in this very weird situation

01:24:54   where I'm afraid to stick the sticker,

01:24:56   because it's a really good one and I don't wanna blow it.

01:24:59   But at the same time, once it's stuck,

01:25:01   I also know that it's, you know,

01:25:03   when that product is gone, that sticker is gone too.

01:25:05   And that makes me sad.

01:25:07   So it's, you know,

01:25:09   I have lots of complicated feelings about stickers.

01:25:11   Every now and then I find my previous smart keyboard,

01:25:14   which I still have, or maybe the, yeah,

01:25:18   smart keyboard before the magic keyboard came out,

01:25:20   the smart keyboard.

01:25:22   And it's got some stickers on it.

01:25:23   And I see the stickers and I'm like,

01:25:24   "Aw, oh, I miss them."

01:25:26   But it's too bad they're gone.

01:25:28   They're on the old hardware that I don't use anymore.

01:25:32   If only I didn't care about stickers.

01:25:35   If I didn't love them so much, I would use them more.

01:25:38   - I will say maybe the very, very best thing

01:25:40   is to stick stickers on a keyboard case,

01:25:43   but I've never really brought myself

01:25:45   to wanna put a case on my keyboard,

01:25:47   on my laptop, sorry, I should say not keyboard,

01:25:49   on a laptop case, you know,

01:25:50   like you can get those little cases that go on laptops,

01:25:53   that kind of thing. - Sure.

01:25:54   Well, that's how I feel about the magic keyboard

01:25:56   for the iPad, right?

01:25:58   It's like, there's something about it where it's,

01:26:00   there's a different threshold there of,

01:26:03   I can, you know, I'm not doing this on the iPad,

01:26:06   I'm just doing this on the keyboard.

01:26:07   And then when it's not in the keyboard case,

01:26:09   it's different, right?

01:26:11   It doesn't have those, but when it is,

01:26:12   then there they are.

01:26:14   I don't know.

01:26:15   I don't have a lot of bumper stickers on my car either,

01:26:18   right?

01:26:19   Like I'm not a big sticker person.

01:26:22   - If you would like to send in a question for us to answer

01:26:26   on a future episode of the show.

01:26:28   Just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade and it can be included in a

01:26:33   future episode, or you can use ?askupgrade in the Relay FM members discord, which

01:26:37   you get access to if you subscribe to Upgrade Plus.

01:26:41   Go to getupgradeplus.com and you will get longer ad-free versions of every episode

01:26:45   of Upgrade for either $5 a month or $50 a year, and you'll also be helping support

01:26:51   the show.

01:26:51   Thank you to everybody that does.

01:26:53   I would also like to thank our sponsors of this episode, Doppler, CleanMyMac X, and TextExpander.

01:26:58   And thank you for listening.

01:26:59   If you want to find Jason online, go to SixColors.com, and he is @JasonL on Twitter.

01:27:04   I am @IMyke, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:27:07   And we'll be back next time.

01:27:08   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:27:11   Goodbye Myke Hurley.

01:27:12   [MUSIC]