428: (2)


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 428.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Fitbud, Hover, and CleanMyMac X.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hi, Myke Hurley. It's good to be here.

00:00:23   I have a #SnellTalk question for you, if you could imagine such things.

00:00:26   Oh great. That's how we do it here.

00:00:28   - That is how we start them all.

00:00:29   This one comes from Mark and Mark wants to know,

00:00:32   Jason, when you read a hardcover book,

00:00:35   or used to, I guess, says Mark,

00:00:38   there's Mark added that in there,

00:00:39   you can suggest if Mark is right or wrong about that.

00:00:41   Anyway, do you remove the slipcover?

00:00:44   - All right, so the answer is yes.

00:00:46   I remember the last hardcover book

00:00:49   that I bought for myself and took on a trip,

00:00:52   which was I think the last hardcover book

00:00:54   I bought for myself with,

00:00:56   I guess there are a couple exceptions

00:00:57   where I bought like an autographed copy

00:00:59   from an author I like, that sort of thing.

00:01:02   It was "Cryptonomicon" by Neal Stephenson.

00:01:06   It was a very, very, very large, heavy Neal Stephenson

00:01:08   thousand page novel.

00:01:10   And I got a Kindle and was like, I'm never doing this again.

00:01:15   So I don't, I very rarely read a hardcover book.

00:01:17   But if I do, like Joe Posnanski's "Baseball 100"

00:01:22   or whatever, I leave the slip cover on.

00:01:24   And in fact, I have been known to tuck

00:01:26   one of the flaps of this cover into the book as a bookmark

00:01:31   if I don't have another bookmark.

00:01:33   So that's a little bonus for you there.

00:01:35   But basically every book I read now is on a Kobo actually,

00:01:40   but you know, an e-reader.

00:01:41   I don't do paper books anymore

00:01:43   and I have very little nostalgia for it.

00:01:47   And I have very little tolerance

00:01:48   for other people's nostalgia for it.

00:01:50   Like read what you like.

00:01:51   It's the think pieces that are like,

00:01:53   "Oh, is something lost when you can't smell the paper?"

00:01:57   And my answer is no.

00:01:59   - Yeah, I mean, I could also have

00:02:01   like a reel-to-reel projector if I wanted to

00:02:04   rather than a television.

00:02:05   Cassette tapes are cool again.

00:02:07   - Cassette tapes, sure.

00:02:09   They auto-reverse.

00:02:10   You get, theoretically, they could play forever, right?

00:02:12   They just play one side, flip over, go the other way,

00:02:15   flip over, go back the other way.

00:02:16   You can just listen to one thing

00:02:18   for all time on a cassette tape.

00:02:20   - It's the only way to do it.

00:02:22   - I have a secondary question for you.

00:02:24   This comes from me and me says.

00:02:26   - Oh, hi me.

00:02:27   - Hi.

00:02:28   Are Kobo's like, are they like the hipster Kindle,

00:02:31   do you think?

00:02:32   - I mean, are Mac books like the hipster laptop?

00:02:37   - Yes.

00:02:38   - Okay, 'cause in the sense that there's a dominant

00:02:41   market leader and then there's the one that sort of people

00:02:43   in the know think is better, I think is probably yes.

00:02:48   Although I'll also say it's no,

00:02:50   because Kobo has a deal with like Walmart,

00:02:53   where Walmart's ebook store is also,

00:02:57   you can log in with your Walmart ID to a Kobo

00:03:00   and buy books that way.

00:03:01   So that's very unhip.

00:03:03   - So actually Kobo is the hipster e-reader that sold out.

00:03:07   - Yeah, sure.

00:03:09   - That sold out to Walmart.

00:03:11   - Sure.

00:03:12   I just, Scott McNulty, a friend of the show,

00:03:14   wrote a piece about how he finally gave a Kobo a try

00:03:16   and he did not like it,

00:03:18   which is because he's been taken over by Big Kindle.

00:03:22   - Isn't that just Amazon?

00:03:23   Like, isn't that Big Kindle?

00:03:25   - No, Amazon's so big that Big Kindle

00:03:28   is just a small subsidiary of Amazon, unfortunately.

00:03:32   Anyway, Scott made a point that I actually linked to

00:03:36   from Six Colors, which is the software gap

00:03:39   between Kindle and Kobo used to be much larger

00:03:41   than it is now.

00:03:42   There was a Kindle software update last year

00:03:43   that actually really improved the Kindle software.

00:03:47   It's way better than it used to be.

00:03:48   It's still, I would say not as good as the Kobo software.

00:03:51   And there's lots of reasons to prefer Kobo,

00:03:53   but there are fewer of them than there were last time.

00:03:57   And I still think the best, if you're like me

00:03:59   and you think that physical page turn buttons

00:04:01   on your e-reader are a thing that is a priority,

00:04:04   the best e-reader with physical page turn buttons

00:04:09   is the Kobo Libra 2, because it's like more than 100 bucks

00:04:13   less than the cheapest Kindle with physical page turn buttons,

00:04:18   because that's the Oasis and it's not cheap at all.

00:04:20   So there are lots of reasons that you

00:04:22   might want to get a Kobo.

00:04:23   And I felt--

00:04:24   I was like, let's not go all in on the Amazon ebook monopoly.

00:04:31   And I've been fine with it.

00:04:32   I've enjoyed it.

00:04:32   I have a Kindle Oasis.

00:04:34   I could use it.

00:04:35   It is nicer hardware, but the software

00:04:38   is still nicer enough on the Kobo

00:04:40   that I keep using the Kobo instead.

00:04:43   - Kobo Libra 2.

00:04:45   - Libra 2, yeah, yeah.

00:04:47   And we'll see, I mean, Amazon could make this moot

00:04:49   if it came up out with a new round of Kindles,

00:04:53   but I feel like Amazon thinks that buttons to turn the page

00:04:56   are a premium feature that should only be

00:04:58   on the most high end of products.

00:05:00   And as long as that's the case,

00:05:02   I'm gonna prefer the Kobo because the Kobo,

00:05:07   Kobo doesn't seem to think that.

00:05:10   I mean, they do have a cheaper one that doesn't have buttons

00:05:12   but that you can get for 100 to 120 less

00:05:17   to get what is essentially the same e-reader

00:05:20   and slightly not as nice hardware.

00:05:23   That's a pretty big gap.

00:05:26   - The Kindle Scribe is a very interesting

00:05:31   looking product to me.

00:05:32   - It is, so this is, somebody asked me,

00:05:34   they're like, "Oh, Jason, you review e-readers,

00:05:37   "are you gonna review the Kindle Scribe?"

00:05:38   And the problem I have with it is there is this weird,

00:05:40   Like e-readers are a weird sub category to begin with,

00:05:43   but there is a weird sub sub category of e-readers,

00:05:47   which is the e-reader note takers,

00:05:50   where you've got a bigger screen

00:05:53   and support for a pen basically,

00:05:56   so that you can read documents, usually PDFs,

00:05:59   although it can be other books and things,

00:06:01   and use your pen to mark them up or take notes.

00:06:05   And there are a bunch of those that are like,

00:06:08   There's some Android things where they put e-paper

00:06:11   on an Android tablet.

00:06:13   There is, I think Kobo has one in Kindle now,

00:06:17   the Amazon Kindle, big Kindle.

00:06:18   - Remarkable is like,

00:06:20   - And yes, the one that you see on the Instagram ads.

00:06:24   - Constantly, yeah, forever.

00:06:27   - Yeah, along with that little device that lets you type

00:06:30   without being on a computer, whatever that thing is called.

00:06:32   Those are my, every Instagram ad I get

00:06:34   is those two things. - Wait, what?

00:06:35   - Oh, it's got like a little e-paper or e-ink screen

00:06:40   and it's like a typewriter, basically.

00:06:44   - Interesting, I've never seen that one.

00:06:45   That one's a you one, right?

00:06:47   They're not gonna get that one to me.

00:06:48   I don't write anything.

00:06:49   - Yeah, I guess that's true.

00:06:51   But for other people, so I am utterly uninterested

00:06:55   in the e-ink note-taking.

00:06:59   It's not part of my life, it's not a thing I do.

00:07:01   I also don't particularly like handwriting anything,

00:07:05   But it is an interesting, so I'm not gonna read about it

00:07:08   'cause I do not care about it, but it is interesting

00:07:11   that Amazon is now going in that direction too,

00:07:14   especially since they had the Kindle DX back in the day,

00:07:16   which sort of was trying to do this and was kind of a flop

00:07:19   and they killed it after a while.

00:07:21   - The DX was like a magazine thing though, right?

00:07:23   - Yeah, it was big, but it also had,

00:07:25   it was also for notes, theoretically,

00:07:27   note-taking and all that.

00:07:28   But I guess the tech has gotten a lot better

00:07:30   where they think this is basically like a virtual notepad

00:07:34   There are no buttons on it though. No page turn buttons even though it starts at $339.

00:07:42   I mean I can see for a product that's got a lot of pen input that the buttons don't

00:07:46   even need to be there as opposed to a dedicated reader.

00:07:49   This one is interesting to me, I'll say that, just because for what the product is it's

00:07:54   a little bit different and it's more of a note taking device which is something that

00:07:58   I would care more about. I think this is super interesting and I feel bad for Remarkable

00:08:02   Because I don't think, because you know, I mean, the thing about the

00:08:06   Remarkable tablet for me, I think me and Ray will talk about this in

00:08:09   Cortex because we spoke about the Remarkable a little while ago, but the

00:08:14   thing about the Remarkable was like, it would be great if I could write on

00:08:17   my Kindle books, but you can't.

00:08:20   Well, do you know what can?

00:08:22   The Kindle one.

00:08:24   And I think they're doing a thing that this isn't interesting to me, but I

00:08:27   think it will be interesting to people.

00:08:29   They're working with Microsoft, so you can,

00:08:32   there'll be a button in Word,

00:08:34   and you can send your Word documents to your Kindle scribe.

00:08:39   Now, I don't care about that,

00:08:42   but that seems like a really good feature.

00:08:45   You know what I mean? - Yeah, if you're an attorney

00:08:46   or any business type person, Microsoft business type,

00:08:50   I mean, that's a use case here, right?

00:08:54   It's somebody who wants to mark documents up on paper,

00:08:57   but have them be accessible electronically,

00:09:00   this is how you do something like that.

00:09:02   It's part of that whole, you know,

00:09:03   it's another stab at the whole paperless office concept

00:09:06   to use an ink reader and a pencil,

00:09:09   you know, pen stylist thingy instead.

00:09:11   By the way, it's the Freerite Traveler

00:09:13   is the other one that I get endlessly recommended to me

00:09:16   on Instagram, which is like a keyboard.

00:09:19   It's got a little flip up thing.

00:09:22   - Genuinely, I'm surprised you haven't bought this.

00:09:24   This feels like a Jason Snell product through and through

00:09:27   of like, here's this little fun little thing.

00:09:29   - But that's the thing is it's sort of a fun little thing,

00:09:33   but there are like so many,

00:09:34   like I would just use an iPad, right?

00:09:37   - Yeah.

00:09:38   I feel like if this had more tinkerability,

00:09:42   it doesn't look very tinkerable, this thing.

00:09:44   - No, 'cause I just think the experience

00:09:46   is probably not very good.

00:09:47   And I've got so many options for very, very small,

00:09:52   very light writing environments now, right?

00:09:54   That this is not, no.

00:09:57   I don't think so.

00:09:58   But it is, I mean, I'm fascinated by it.

00:10:00   I love the idea, but I wouldn't buy it

00:10:03   'cause I wouldn't use it.

00:10:04   - If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question

00:10:08   of your own to help us start off the show,

00:10:10   then maybe I'll ask a supplementary question too,

00:10:12   if I want to.

00:10:14   You can send them in with the hashtag Snell Talk

00:10:16   or use question mark Snell Talk

00:10:18   in the Relay FM members discord.

00:10:21   I have some items of follow up, Jason Snell.

00:10:24   - Okay.

00:10:25   - So we've been talking a bit recently

00:10:27   about potential sales figures of the new iPhones,

00:10:31   you know, like wondering like,

00:10:32   are these gonna-- - Right, how's it going?

00:10:33   - How are they gonna do?

00:10:35   Well, Foxconn, Apple's primary supplier,

00:10:39   I think maybe only supplier,

00:10:42   like manufacturer I meant to say, of iPhones,

00:10:45   has set new monthly revenue records.

00:10:49   They haven't said, they've said they've had storming demand,

00:10:54   right? Like it's been like they're 40% year over year up.

00:10:58   Foxconn don't explicitly name Apple as the reason

00:11:02   for this 40% year over year increase in their earnings,

00:11:07   but it's considered by analysts

00:11:08   that the only new product launch

00:11:10   that could drive the increase they are seeing

00:11:13   is the iPhone.

00:11:14   - Okay, I mean, it's,

00:11:16   maybe we'll get a better hint at the end of the month

00:11:18   with the financials, but this suggests that whatever,

00:11:22   Either that or they had a bad year last year or something,

00:11:26   but this is an interesting positive sign for iPhone sales.

00:11:29   - And I think this is maybe my favorite thing

00:11:34   I've ever written in the document.

00:11:35   So I write these little headings

00:11:37   and then I put links and notes in for individual things.

00:11:40   This is rollercoaster car crashes.

00:11:43   - Yep.

00:11:44   - The "Wall Street Journal."

00:11:45   - This is your super karate monkey death car moment.

00:11:48   - The "Wall Street Journal" is reporting

00:11:49   that Apple's new car crash detection features

00:11:52   are being triggered by roller coasters.

00:11:54   Joanna Stern reported and wrote the article

00:11:57   and spoke with a theme park in Cincinnati

00:12:00   that has already received

00:12:01   six accidentally triggered emergency responses.

00:12:04   I just find this to be quite funny

00:12:08   and what you're gonna do.

00:12:10   You know what I mean?

00:12:11   Like what are you gonna do?

00:12:11   There's nothing you can do about it.

00:12:13   - I guess Apple might be interested in looking at that data

00:12:16   to see if there's a way for them to do a software update

00:12:18   where they lock out certain sorts of signals

00:12:21   as rollercoaster signals, that would be interesting, right?

00:12:25   To say, is there a way for Apple to improve the algorithm

00:12:27   so that this stuff gets locked out?

00:12:31   And also, I think in the meantime, what's gonna happen is

00:12:33   the dispatchers are gonna be like,

00:12:36   that's a rollercoaster thing, right?

00:12:38   Like they're gonna realize that,

00:12:41   of what's going on and work around it.

00:12:43   But that's a very funny thing that obviously

00:12:45   Apple's algorithm didn't test

00:12:48   at least some rollercoaster profiles that set it off.

00:12:53   - I don't know if someone would naturally draw that link

00:12:58   before it happens.

00:13:00   - I don't know.

00:13:01   I mean, it is somebody's job to think about

00:13:02   what other ways could we trigger a false positive here.

00:13:05   And maybe they did, but there's a certain aspect of,

00:13:09   for example, the theme park in Cincinnati

00:13:12   that their coaster sets it off.

00:13:15   - Right.

00:13:17   - Yeah, the other thought I had was

00:13:18   could also set it up where literally you know where the roller coasters are and if it goes

00:13:23   off on the roller coaster, the Apple Watch knows or the phone knows, "Oh, not here."

00:13:30   Right? Like you could literally just block out…

00:13:31   Because it knows where you are, that's part of the whole process is identifying the location.

00:13:36   So maybe this is what they need, you know, this is what they need to do. Did you see

00:13:42   the… there was a…

00:13:44   It won't save the person who gets in a high-speed car crash underneath the roller coaster, but

00:13:48   that's probably not gonna happen, right? Did you see that there was a an actual

00:13:52   fatal car accident that, did you see about this? There was, I think it was in

00:13:58   Nebraska, it was very sad, there were six young people in the car, they all

00:14:03   died, but it was the first time that this feature had been reported on as

00:14:09   actually doing the job, so like the emergency services only knew about this

00:14:17   because the an iPhone triggered it. Wow. So it's you know it's horrible absolutely

00:14:23   horrible thing to have happened but this is it in action like this is what this

00:14:29   feature is supposed to do this was an incredibly unfortunate incident but you

00:14:36   can like at least someone was taken to hospital because of it like they one of

00:14:41   the because a young woman she died in hospital but she probably never would

00:14:45   have made it to the hospital I would assume without this feature so you know in theory

00:14:51   it will do its thing but they have to deal with the roller coaster problem first and

00:14:57   this isn't going to be the only thing there's going to be lots of things like this I'm sure

00:15:02   that over time will they'll have to weed out this is part of it right but this is that

00:15:07   thing of if you if you work at Apple when you deploy a feature you're deploying it to

00:15:14   millions of people at once and then you have to work out very fast how to tweak it. I can't

00:15:20   even imagine what that is like, what that kind of scale is like. It's really a wild

00:15:26   kind of thing to think about.

00:15:28   It's the, and it's got multiple inputs, right? So it's trying to make a really good judgment.

00:15:32   I found a story about that Nebraska thing and it is, again, tragic and the fact that

00:15:38   nobody survived is awful, but it is interesting that the, there's like what happened with

00:15:44   or without the iPhone.

00:15:45   And the fact is they called 911 when somebody heard it

00:15:49   and went out and saw that there was a car crash.

00:15:51   And then they went back inside and they called 911.

00:15:54   And the 911 operator said, basically we already know

00:15:59   because they got the call from the iPhone 14.

00:16:02   Now at some point that's gonna save somebody's life,

00:16:07   but in this case it didn't.

00:16:09   Although I also there's cases where there's like,

00:16:12   even in a fatal accident in a remote location

00:16:16   where people don't hear it, right?

00:16:19   To get that warning, whether you can save them or not,

00:16:21   to know that, to send somebody out there

00:16:23   and find the car and all that is also a thing,

00:16:25   but it's not, the purpose of it is not retrieval, right?

00:16:30   It's rescue.

00:16:31   - Yeah, but it's interesting technology.

00:16:36   It feels like one of those things that like,

00:16:37   I understand it might cause issues with roller coasters

00:16:40   and the dispatchers at roller coasters.

00:16:42   But when you weigh these two things against each other,

00:16:44   there's a minor inconvenience compared to the fact

00:16:48   that this could save someone's life.

00:16:49   And will, if it hasn't already.

00:16:51   It probably hasn't, 'cause there would have been

00:16:53   an article about it like there was about this one.

00:16:56   But it's only a matter of time, right?

00:16:59   So, kind of fascinating stuff.

00:17:02   This episode is brought to you by FitBond.

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00:19:19   Saddle up partner. It's a big day in Rumour Roundup town. We have finally, many people

00:19:27   have asked at the time that we were doing Rumour Roundup to have some chapter

00:19:31   artwork and I wasn't sure what to do and then over time it's like I want to do

00:19:37   something and as we did it more and more I kept thinking about Woody's Roundup

00:19:40   like that's where a lot of this comes from it's from Toy Story 2 and what I

00:19:45   like about Woody's Roundup and I've always liked is that it says Woody's

00:19:48   Roundup in like a lasso like it's written out and so I thought in my mind

00:19:52   what would it be like to have Rumour Roundup written out like this then I

00:19:56   I popped into my head, I've commissioned an artist

00:19:59   that I've been lucky to work with a bunch of times.

00:20:01   He's named Siege Roland.

00:20:02   He's done a bunch of poster work for me in the past

00:20:05   and some other projects.

00:20:07   He's an incredibly talented illustrator.

00:20:09   So I spoke to Siege and I told him the kind of thing

00:20:11   that I was thinking about.

00:20:12   And he created the brand new Rumor Roundup artwork

00:20:16   and I adore it.

00:20:18   - Yeah, it's pretty great.

00:20:20   We're like cowboys.

00:20:21   - We're cowboys and we're on the plains.

00:20:23   - You're scouting the distance

00:20:25   and I'm looking at a map.

00:20:27   - Yep, you're giving it, you're finding the way.

00:20:29   Map, it's, you're looking at Map World magazine.

00:20:32   - It is Map World.

00:20:34   There's a 16 camera iPhone room around the back

00:20:37   and there's a cactus in the background.

00:20:38   So I don't know if we're on the plains,

00:20:39   we may be out in the desert.

00:20:41   - Oh yeah, that makes more sense.

00:20:44   We're in the desert, I guess.

00:20:46   - And our horse is looking at us like,

00:20:48   I can't believe I have to work with these guys.

00:20:50   - These chocolate heads.

00:20:52   They don't even know where they're going.

00:20:54   Also, we made a Room Around Up t-shirt.

00:20:58   So if you want to get the Room Around Up just like written out, I was looking at this, it

00:21:02   was too much to make that a full t-shirt that will cost about $1,000 a shirt with the colors

00:21:08   needed.

00:21:09   But the beautiful Room Around Up text is also available on our permanent merch store where

00:21:14   there are a selection of wonderful upgrade t-shirts available all the time, printed by

00:21:19   our friends over at Cotton Bureau.

00:21:21   So you can go and get that too.

00:21:23   If you want a Roomba Roundup t-shirt of your own, I can't wait to get one because I love

00:21:28   this so much.

00:21:29   And so, yeah, thank you to Siege for doing such fantastic work on this.

00:21:33   I'll put a link to their kind of portfolio in the chat too, in the show notes too, if

00:21:40   you want to check out their work.

00:21:42   But I do actually have some rumors for the Roundup.

00:21:44   Oh, good.

00:21:45   Thank goodness.

00:21:46   It's not just devolved into just custom art.

00:21:48   We're just talking about the artwork.

00:21:50   That's it.

00:21:51   every week. That's what we do. We just review our own artwork. No. According to display analyst Ross

00:21:57   Young, Apple is expecting to release their 27-inch mini LED display now in Q1 of 2023.

00:22:05   As a reminder, this display would feature ProMotion support. The expectation is it does not

00:22:12   replace the current Pro Display XDR, but would make for a nicer and less expensive upgrade for

00:22:18   for people who want something more

00:22:19   than the current studio display.

00:22:21   So they would have, this is the whole thing.

00:22:24   I want to set it up, start you with a question, right?

00:22:25   So you've got Pro Display, XDR,

00:22:28   which is the full-on big thing

00:22:31   with the stand that costs the money it costs,

00:22:34   and it's all like reference grade, right?

00:22:36   Then you've got the Studio Display,

00:22:39   which is the 27, is it 27 inches Studio Display?

00:22:43   I think so, right? - Yes.

00:22:44   - 27 inch display that, you know,

00:22:47   It's just a nice display.

00:22:49   But then you've got this third display,

00:22:51   which is 27 inches, so the same size,

00:22:54   but it's mini LED, so very high performance on the HDR level

00:22:58   and it's Pro Display, which the, so it's got, you know,

00:23:01   like the one can go up to 120 hertz.

00:23:04   - ProMotion, you mean?

00:23:05   - That's what I meant to say, ProMotion display,

00:23:07   which the Pro Display cannot do.

00:23:09   It does not have that feature.

00:23:10   So what I want to ask Jason is what on earth

00:23:12   do they call this product?

00:23:14   - All right, I have two suggestions.

00:23:17   - Okay.

00:23:18   - That I'm gonna put down.

00:23:19   One of them is to call it the ProMotion display.

00:23:25   So there's the Pro Display, Studio Display,

00:23:28   ProMotion Display, and Pro Display XDR.

00:23:31   Or ProMotion Display XDR if you really wanted to do it,

00:23:34   but like ProMotion Display.

00:23:35   And the other suggestion I have is

00:23:37   the 27 inch Pro Display XDR.

00:23:41   - I see where you're going with that.

00:23:42   You can understand why that's weird though, right?

00:23:44   'Cause it's like,

00:23:45   it doesn't have the same feature set.

00:23:47   However-- - It does not have

00:23:48   the same feature set.

00:23:49   - I see where you're going.

00:23:51   - And it's much newer and there's a question,

00:23:52   will the Pro Display XDR continue to be sold

00:23:54   or updated or discontinued down the road?

00:24:00   I don't know.

00:24:01   But so those are my two options is one,

00:24:04   you could literally put ProMotion in the name, right?

00:24:06   'Cause you've got a studio display,

00:24:07   that's the lower cost one.

00:24:09   So you could call it the ProMotion display.

00:24:11   You give it a new name, but like I think ProMotion display

00:24:15   or just call it Pro Display, you know,

00:24:18   27 inch Pro Display XDR or 27 inch Pro Display.

00:24:22   You could do that.

00:24:23   You don't have to come up with a brand new name for it.

00:24:25   - Yep.

00:24:26   I do, so to throw a spanner in the works,

00:24:29   this display type exists, right?

00:24:33   So mini LED and ProMotion on both the iPad Pro

00:24:38   and the MacBook Pro and Apple calls them both

00:24:41   Liquid Retina XDR.

00:24:44   - Yes.

00:24:45   - Could you imagine,

00:24:46   do you imagine they could call it

00:24:48   the liquid retina XDR display?

00:24:50   - Yeah, I mean, they don't.

00:24:53   - I don't like that as a name to be honest.

00:24:54   - That is a display technology and they generally,

00:24:59   I mean, that's also an argument against promotion

00:25:01   'cause that's just a feature.

00:25:03   So they could, they could do that.

00:25:06   It is also true,

00:25:07   and Zach in our member Discord pointed this out,

00:25:11   The iPad Pro 11 and 12.9 are called the same thing,

00:25:14   and 12.9 has ProMotion, Liquid Retina, blah, blah, blah,

00:25:19   and the 11 doesn't, and they're still just differentiated

00:25:21   by their size, right?

00:25:23   So you could get away with it, I think,

00:25:24   saying 27-inch Pro Display XDR,

00:25:27   and it's got different features.

00:25:29   But yeah, they could invent a third title.

00:25:34   I don't know, those are my guesses.

00:25:37   It's like, if you need to differentiate in some way,

00:25:40   ProMotion is a great way to do it

00:25:41   'cause it's the only external display with ProMotion.

00:25:45   Or I would say just roll it into the Pro Display XDR line.

00:25:50   Those are my two suggestions.

00:25:51   - The 11 inch, it isn't called like

00:25:53   we're driving a display XDR on the 11 inch.

00:25:56   - I know, but the 11 inch iPad Pro is the 11 inch iPad Pro

00:25:58   and the 12.9 inch iPad Pro is just the 12.9 inch iPad Pro.

00:26:02   And the displays are very different,

00:26:04   but all they differentiate by is size.

00:26:06   - Yeah, but they are different product.

00:26:08   They're not just the display, you know what I mean?

00:26:10   I get the argument, I get the argument.

00:26:12   But the 30-inch Pro Display XDR and the 27-inch Pro Display XDR having different display technologies

00:26:18   is not necessarily a deal breaker.

00:26:20   I have two more name suggestions from the Discord.

00:26:24   Studio Display XDR and Studio Display Ultra.

00:26:28   Mmm, okay.

00:26:31   Pro Max.

00:26:32   Studio Display Ultra Pro Max.

00:26:34   Studio Display XDR is interesting, but I feel like it puts it too close to the Studio Display

00:26:38   Right? Like that it's much more impressive than that.

00:26:41   I guess that depends where it sits price-wise, right?

00:26:44   Also, the dynamic range isn't the only differentiator.

00:26:46   The problem with XDR as a title is that it is a dynamic range differentiator,

00:26:51   not a screen refresh differentiator, right? It's not.

00:26:57   And so, if you just put XDR in the name, it is matching up with the existing product.

00:27:04   but like if you tag XDR onto the end of the studio display, I don't know, you're

00:27:08   you are missing Promotion if you if you don't mention Promotion, I guess is what

00:27:13   I'm saying. Yes, but they don't call it Promotion. Promotion is not in the name

00:27:19   for the laptops either, it's just Liquid Retina XDR display. Yeah, I get it.

00:27:24   It's a it's an interesting marketing challenge for them. I would I would if

00:27:31   If I'm the marketing person,

00:27:33   I wanna place this in the category of the Pro Display XDR.

00:27:37   It's a Pro Display.

00:27:38   I don't wanna place it in the Studio Display category

00:27:41   'cause we already have a Studio Display.

00:27:43   It's the same size.

00:27:46   Let's not, let's differentiate in the name

00:27:49   that this is the more expensive, higher quality display.

00:27:53   - What about Studio Display Pro XDR?

00:27:57   I'm only slightly joking.

00:27:59   I mean, sure, they could do that, sure.

00:28:03   - 'Cause I think it's complicated.

00:28:05   - Then you've got a Studio Pro and a Studio and a Pro?

00:28:08   I don't know.

00:28:09   Yeah, I don't know.

00:28:12   - It's just very complicated because

00:28:14   they've already used XDR when they maybe shouldn't have.

00:28:19   - The Mac Studio, Mac Pro.

00:28:22   - Yep. - Studio Display, Pro Display.

00:28:24   I think that's the answer,

00:28:25   which is why it's probably Pro Display XDR.

00:28:29   or ProMotion Display, or ProMotion Display XDR,

00:28:32   something like that.

00:28:34   - It's very frustrating that they use Pro Display

00:28:36   as a name already.

00:28:38   - I wonder about the Pro Display XDR, right?

00:28:40   Like it doesn't, it's not gonna be as good

00:28:43   as this monitor, right?

00:28:44   Like, because we've seen from the, it's big,

00:28:48   and it's good, right?

00:28:49   But like it's using older tech to do its dynamic range.

00:28:52   It's got the like illumination zones

00:28:54   that are basically like a monitor behind the monitor

00:28:56   to do illumination.

00:28:58   And the mini LED is a much finer level of illumination.

00:29:03   And so you got that and then you've got ProMotion

00:29:07   and the Pro Display XDR doesn't do that.

00:29:10   So other than its size-

00:29:11   - 6K, it's 6K as well as the physical size difference,

00:29:15   it is a higher resolution.

00:29:16   - Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah,

00:29:18   they go hand in hand, I think.

00:29:19   But it's in a weird position where like, okay,

00:29:23   Apple made this like unnecessary high-end monitor.

00:29:27   That was a choice, but now they've made the studio display

00:29:31   and they're apparently making this display.

00:29:33   So why does that high-end monitor exist anymore

00:29:36   other than to be aspirational?

00:29:38   And that I think is the key question is like,

00:29:40   is that monitor long for this world?

00:29:42   And if it is, I kind of think like they're gonna need

00:29:44   to update it at some point, right?

00:29:46   Because it is, you already hear talking nerd circles

00:29:50   about how like the features that it lacks,

00:29:53   and it's a ridiculously expensive, in context,

00:29:56   Display, again, not if you're trying to sort of do

00:30:00   a cheap reference monitor for professional work,

00:30:03   but like if you're thinking of it as just a computer display

00:30:06   so like where does it go?

00:30:09   At some point it's irrelevant and do they intend for it

00:30:12   to remain relevant or do they intend to pull it out

00:30:16   of the product line because this new monitor

00:30:18   is gonna be great?

00:30:18   And I think that's one of the questions

00:30:20   that probably factors into the naming too

00:30:22   is like in the long run, is the Pro Display XDR

00:30:26   going away, and if so, what does that mean?

00:30:30   Are you free to just call this

00:30:32   the new 27-inch Pro Display XDR,

00:30:33   knowing that eventually it will be the standard bearer?

00:30:36   I don't know.

00:30:37   - 'Cause what I was just looking there is like,

00:30:39   I couldn't, what I couldn't remember is like,

00:30:41   are the Mac, does the MacBook Pro have a similar like,

00:30:45   'cause obviously one of the big things

00:30:46   about the original Pro Display XDR

00:30:48   is the fact that it's a reference monitor, right?

00:30:51   And you can do that.

00:30:52   And they've referenced in the MacBook Pro

00:30:55   about color grading and reference modes

00:30:58   and all that kind of stuff.

00:31:00   So like, 'cause what I was wondering is like,

00:31:02   will this new display also be like,

00:31:05   could it be considered a reference monitor?

00:31:07   And if it could, if it could,

00:31:09   then I actually think you might be right

00:31:11   that they just call it the 27 inch Pro Display XDR

00:31:14   with the idea that eventually they will have

00:31:17   a 30 inch Pro Display XDR or whatever, right?

00:31:22   - Well, they'll either update the one that's there

00:31:24   they'll remove it, right?

00:31:25   Like those are the choices, I think.

00:31:27   - Intriguing.

00:31:29   I am intrigued about that.

00:31:32   - This is why they pay those marketing people

00:31:33   the big money, right?

00:31:34   It's like, this is not an easy decision.

00:31:36   - Ross Young is also reporting that the next iPhone SE

00:31:42   will feature a 6.1 inch display with a notch.

00:31:46   Even though there is still suggestion

00:31:47   that there would not actually be any face ID technology

00:31:50   in that notch, the iPhone SE would continue with touch ID.

00:31:53   So a 6.1 inch display would significantly change

00:31:58   the physical dimensions of the iPhone SE product.

00:32:02   So a 6.1 inch display with a notch

00:32:05   is what the iPhone XR had.

00:32:08   So I wanna give some breakdowns here.

00:32:11   You'll have to excuse the fact that I mix up the units,

00:32:16   but I think it's actually easier to understand.

00:32:18   So the screen would be going from the iPhone SE,

00:32:21   which has a 4.7 inch screen to a 6.1 inch screen.

00:32:25   And then I took a look at iPhone 10R versus,

00:32:28   well, iPhone SE versus iPhone XR

00:32:30   in dimensions as they are currently.

00:32:33   The height, it would go from 138 to 150 millimeters,

00:32:38   and the width from 67 millimeters to 75 millimeters.

00:32:42   Now, of course, there could be some differences

00:32:46   in physical size between iPhone SE4 in this dimension

00:32:51   and the iPhone XR, but I expect it will be close enough.

00:32:54   Now, the thing that you must remember now

00:32:56   is when I give you these numbers,

00:32:57   is that the iPhone XR is physically larger

00:33:01   than the iPhone 14.

00:33:03   - Yeah.

00:33:04   - So this would be, if this is true,

00:33:08   the age of the small iPhone is definitely over

00:33:12   at that point.

00:33:13   - Yeah, I mean, arguable, but yeah,

00:33:15   I think that's the idea.

00:33:16   I'll get to the arguable in a minute,

00:33:19   but the part that makes me do a double take

00:33:23   is still touch ID.

00:33:25   'Cause it's like, all right, well,

00:33:27   so you're gonna put a notch up there,

00:33:29   but there's not gonna be most of the stuff in there.

00:33:31   It's gonna be mostly empty.

00:33:33   - Then I'm in Ireland.

00:33:35   - Well, and they're not gonna do that, right?

00:33:38   So why is that notch there?

00:33:41   I mean, I get it that you still need to have a place

00:33:44   for the camera and the proximity sensor and all that.

00:33:47   It's just, are you saving enough money

00:33:50   and is it necessary enough to differentiate

00:33:53   that you are going to, or have you gotten the feedback

00:33:58   that some people really, really, really, really want Touch ID

00:34:02   and are opposed to Face ID?

00:34:07   Because, you know, so you take Face ID out

00:34:10   and you put Touch ID on the button on the side, I'm assuming,

00:34:13   'cause there's not gonna be any room

00:34:14   on the home screen for a button if it's the 10R design.

00:34:17   So that's weird, that's weird.

00:34:20   They could do it, they totally could do it.

00:34:22   I just am a little surprised that they wouldn't just say

00:34:24   like the XR that they're essentially upgrading the XR

00:34:27   and that it's got face ID and all that.

00:34:29   So if they pull face ID out and say, no, no, no, face ID,

00:34:32   it's far too expensive a feature for you,

00:34:34   little SE phone, big SE phone,

00:34:36   you get a touch ID sensor on the button.

00:34:38   That's just how you have to do it now.

00:34:40   That's, I don't know.

00:34:43   That part is disappointing, but you're right.

00:34:46   This is also the ultimate uncoupling of the concept

00:34:49   of an SE phone as a smaller iPhone versus cheaper iPhone.

00:34:54   I think it was always intended to be a cheaper iPhone,

00:34:57   but it was also the smaller iPhone,

00:34:59   and this is the end of that if this happens.

00:35:01   - I have my own theory about why they would

00:35:03   put the notch there, irrespective of what's inside,

00:35:07   is that then the iPhone SE won't look

00:35:09   like an old phone anymore.

00:35:11   - Oh, absolutely true.

00:35:12   It's so frustrating that they would have a notched phone

00:35:14   and not put the face ID sensors in it.

00:35:17   - It's like a fake notch.

00:35:18   They actually, it's all software.

00:35:21   - I mean, I had that thought too,

00:35:23   which is like, there's actually just a little cutout

00:35:25   for the one thing, but they draw the whole notch.

00:35:28   - Maybe though, you know, maybe.

00:35:30   Maybe, you know what, like it says it's a notch,

00:35:32   maybe it is a really small notch.

00:35:34   Maybe it is just for the camera.

00:35:37   - Maybe.

00:35:38   - They haven't said what the dimensions of a notch would be.

00:35:40   It could just be just for a camera.

00:35:42   Like it would be much smaller.

00:35:43   - It could be.

00:35:44   I think that they'll also have the,

00:35:46   they'll have the proximity sensor up there

00:35:48   and they'll have, there's other sensors,

00:35:49   but not the infrared beam illuminator

00:35:53   and face ID sensor and all that stuff.

00:35:55   So here is, so for people who like me, like small phones,

00:36:00   here's my don't despair quite yet theory,

00:36:06   which is there is nothing stopping Apple

00:36:11   from releasing an iPhone mini every so often,

00:36:16   maybe even just in the spring, right?

00:36:19   Like they could, and I know it sounds weird,

00:36:21   but like there are lots of iPhones out there.

00:36:24   If Apple thinks that there is a small

00:36:26   but existing audience for the iPhone mini

00:36:29   and they're getting ready to clear,

00:36:31   let's say the iPhone 14 mini off the price list

00:36:34   in a year or two,

00:36:35   would Apple consider doing what they do with the SE

00:36:40   with the iPhone mini and just on every two or three years,

00:36:45   just do a spring release where there's a new mini phone.

00:36:48   Like if it's extra money and they've got an existing design,

00:36:51   'cause we've seen repeatedly,

00:36:53   we're talking about the XR again now, right?

00:36:56   That Apple likes reusing designs.

00:36:58   So I would hold out at least a little bit of hope still.

00:37:01   I wouldn't have the hope dashed completely.

00:37:03   There is nothing stopping Apple

00:37:06   from occasionally releasing an iPhone mini.

00:37:08   I think what's stopping Apple from doing it every year

00:37:11   is that it doesn't make sense to do it every year.

00:37:13   But that doesn't mean they stop doing it all together

00:37:16   'cause Apple really likes recycling old phone designs.

00:37:19   And if they can slap a new chip in that mini design

00:37:24   in the spring when the volumes are low,

00:37:27   they might yet do that someday.

00:37:30   That's my little thread of hope I'll put out there

00:37:32   for many, many fans.

00:37:37   I think the kind of canary in the coal mine for this will be what do they do with the

00:37:43   iPad mini.

00:37:46   Because I love my iPad mini.

00:37:48   It's the iPad I use the most.

00:37:50   My main computer at home, I use it more than my iPhone when I'm at home.

00:37:56   And I often think to myself, please let them make more than just one of these.

00:38:02   And like, please let them do something to it at least every two years, you know?

00:38:07   and I'll be happy.

00:38:08   - I think this is where Apple is right now,

00:38:11   and that's why I mentioned the mini phone

00:38:14   as a possibility is Apple is optimizing, right?

00:38:18   This is a Tim Cook's Apple.

00:38:20   It's huge now, by the way.

00:38:23   And so while you've got your flagship phones

00:38:25   that you wanna sell lots of,

00:38:27   they have a lot of money, they got a lot of audience.

00:38:30   Even some sub audiences are pretty decent sizes.

00:38:34   And while they clearly have shown

00:38:36   that while they have products

00:38:38   that they're not gonna update every year

00:38:39   or even every 18 months,

00:38:40   that they're worth keeping them around

00:38:43   to fulfill certain audience needs.

00:38:46   And the iPad mini is a good example of that.

00:38:49   And I would say, I think the iPhone mini might be too.

00:38:53   And it's the same kind of idea, which is,

00:38:55   look, we can't make a new one of these every year.

00:38:57   Like it doesn't make any sense,

00:38:59   but maybe every two or three years we'll do it.

00:39:02   And I think that that's obviously,

00:39:06   if it's your favorite product,

00:39:07   you want it to be there every year, obviously.

00:39:10   But not everybody, you know,

00:39:13   not everybody has that luxury.

00:39:16   Lots of people do, most people do,

00:39:17   because that's what makes it be your annual product release

00:39:21   is that it's very popular.

00:39:22   - Yeah, if most people didn't,

00:39:24   Apple are doing a very bad job, right?

00:39:26   Like if most people's favorite products is not refreshed.

00:39:30   - Low priority, refresh, that would be a really serious,

00:39:34   You gotta call the judgment into question of that executive

00:39:36   if they just are on some sort of vendetta.

00:39:39   Like, "I hate that, it sells so well, I hate it so much."

00:39:42   - They did do that with a Mac for a while, I think,

00:39:44   but we don't think about those times.

00:39:47   - Yeah, well, I mean, they tried to do it

00:39:50   with the MacBook Air, right?

00:39:51   They're like, "Oh, this MacBook Air,

00:39:53   it's really unappealing, nobody will buy it."

00:39:54   And they're like, "Sir, they're still buying it."

00:39:56   It's like, "Oh, okay, I guess we have to update it."

00:39:59   Right?

00:40:00   So we'll see about it.

00:40:03   but I think they are in the same boat,

00:40:05   in a similar kind of circumstance

00:40:07   where they are edge products and how the SE is,

00:40:11   the Mini is at this point, I would say,

00:40:13   and the iPhone and the iPad, like these are all,

00:40:17   okay, let's throw in like maybe even ultimately

00:40:20   the Mac Mini, right?

00:40:22   These are maybe even the Mac Studio, who knows?

00:40:25   Kind of not necessarily the flagships,

00:40:28   but we'll get an update every so often

00:40:30   because there's enough reason to do so

00:40:31   when they already put in the work, right?

00:40:33   Like, they already designed these things.

00:40:35   So just kind of keep revising them enough to be modern

00:40:39   and so you can keep selling.

00:40:41   - And now that the EU has approved its new directive

00:40:44   to legally require device manufacturers to adopt USB-C,

00:40:48   Mark Gurman is reporting that as well as changes

00:40:50   to the iPhone line by about 2024,

00:40:53   which is when it comes into effect,

00:40:55   Apple will also transition AirPods and Mac accessories

00:40:59   away from Lightning to USB-C.

00:41:01   Mark says that Apple has previously been preparing

00:41:04   for these changes as they expected that this would be passed.

00:41:07   The iPhone 15, due in 2023,

00:41:10   will adopt USB-C across the line.

00:41:12   The base iPad will change to USB-C this year.

00:41:16   And Mark expects the Magic Mouse and Magic Keyboard

00:41:20   to switch over from Lightning to USB-C

00:41:23   when Apple announces its new Mac model for sale next year.

00:41:28   like for its new, its next Mac model,

00:41:31   which would be on sale next year sometime,

00:41:33   whether that be an iMac or a Mac Pro.

00:41:36   And then all three AirPods products, as I mentioned,

00:41:39   would go to USB-C as well.

00:41:40   But Mark goes on to say that he expects

00:41:44   the USB-C connector will be short lived.

00:41:47   Quote, "Apple's future is wireless

00:41:49   and that some version of the canceled AirPower Dream

00:41:52   from 2017 will still eventually come to fruition

00:41:56   well before a decade from now."

00:41:58   At some point in the next few years,

00:42:00   Apple will probably begin transitioning entirely

00:42:02   to inductive charging on the iPhone and iPad,

00:42:05   matching the Apple Watch.

00:42:07   I really hope they don't do that part, but that's just me.

00:42:11   - I mean, the difficulty here again is

00:42:13   what is Mark Gurman's take

00:42:17   and what is Mark Gurman's reporting,

00:42:19   and how current is he with his take versus his reporting?

00:42:23   - I feel like the reporting part is that first part, right?

00:42:26   Like these products will change, you know.

00:42:29   - Yeah, even then though, I think he's,

00:42:31   I'm not sure he knows for a fact

00:42:33   that the Magic Mouse and the keyboard will switch over.

00:42:35   He just sort of expects that it'll happen

00:42:37   and that the iMac is a good time.

00:42:39   And he's not wrong.

00:42:41   Like the iMac comes with them and that would be right.

00:42:46   Like his laptops don't come with them.

00:42:47   The Mac Mini doesn't come with them.

00:42:49   iMac comes with them.

00:42:50   So that would be the logical time

00:42:53   to update the Magic Mouse and keyboard

00:42:54   is as part of an iMac announcement.

00:42:56   - Makes sense. - Yeah, yeah.

00:42:57   - Not sure that that's his sources versus his intuition.

00:43:02   And I'll also point out, this is gonna happen,

00:43:05   like let's all be emotionally prepared for this.

00:43:07   Next year, the iPhone's gonna switch to USB-C

00:43:12   and we're gonna know that the lightning lasted

00:43:15   about as long as the docked connector lasted on the iPhone

00:43:18   and that this has been a good, or lasted in general,

00:43:21   and that this has been a good run

00:43:23   and that switching to USB-C is good

00:43:26   because everybody's already got USB-C,

00:43:28   but I am telling you get ready for all of the hot takes

00:43:32   about how dare Apple change their connector again.

00:43:34   And I say this because Mark Gurman's newsletter this week

00:43:37   was headlined Apple to Change Charger Again,

00:43:41   which by the way, charger, it's not really the charger,

00:43:44   it's the cable plug, right?

00:43:46   It's not the same, but that just,

00:43:48   and it's just like that's such a lazy

00:43:50   Apple to Change Charger Again.

00:43:51   That's the story here again,

00:43:53   'cause they did it 11 years ago.

00:43:55   Again, it's happening, stupid Apple.

00:43:57   Anyway, of all the things to complain about,

00:44:00   this is, but people will do it.

00:44:02   So be ready is what I'm saying, be ready.

00:44:04   About the wireless stuff,

00:44:06   this is like one level down from the,

00:44:09   Apple will release a car that has no steering wheel

00:44:12   kind of statement, which is like,

00:44:14   I appreciate that there's somebody with a vision

00:44:17   who's like, everything will be wireless.

00:44:20   And on an infinite timescale,

00:44:22   Again, that's probably true, but as Apple scales up

00:44:25   its sensors and stuff, so that it ends up with these,

00:44:28   you know, 8K, 120 frames a second HDR video cameras

00:44:33   on iPhones and stuff in the future, the data is huge.

00:44:37   Is transferring that via wireless gonna be the way

00:44:42   you need to do it?

00:44:43   And is wireless gonna be fast enough to outpace

00:44:47   the increased voraciousness of our devices for data?

00:44:52   I am skeptical.

00:44:54   Also his statement that-

00:44:57   - 5G baby.

00:44:58   (laughs)

00:44:59   5G.

00:45:00   - His statement that Apple will be transitioning

00:45:05   entirely to inductive charging on the iPhone and the iPad.

00:45:10   Okay.

00:45:11   Entirely is fascinating, right?

00:45:14   Because there are lots of ergonomic situations

00:45:17   where, you know, bringing it,

00:45:19   you can, yeah, you can bring a charging puck

00:45:21   like you do with the Apple Watch.

00:45:22   I mean, I can see it, but it seems like,

00:45:25   at least today, that seems like they're really pushing it.

00:45:29   And I think about the iPad,

00:45:30   and I remember that question we had

00:45:31   about how would they do MagSafe on the iPad.

00:45:34   And I think like the iPad thing kind of only works

00:45:37   if you do MagSafe.

00:45:40   And I'm not sure based on the EU regulations,

00:45:43   if that's allowed, if you don't have a USB-C port, honestly.

00:45:48   Very weird.

00:45:49   'Cause I think about my iPad and like,

00:45:50   Do I have to snap on a little magnetic puck somewhere

00:45:54   to charge my iPad?

00:45:55   And like, I don't know, it seems really weird.

00:45:57   - I don't think that the EU regulations

00:46:00   would allow them to do this.

00:46:02   - I don't think so. - At all.

00:46:03   Because the regulation that I've seen,

00:46:05   it seems very clear of like,

00:46:07   smartphones get USB-C connectors.

00:46:09   And the only devices that don't, right,

00:46:13   that like won't are devices where it's too small.

00:46:15   It's like smartwatches they're not gonna require it on.

00:46:18   - Right, so if it's like, well now what we have

00:46:20   we have a proprietary charging puck that you charge your phone with, instead of USB-C,

00:46:28   that everybody has to buy separately and only works with ours or whatever, or doesn't, it

00:46:33   works with other Qi charges, but still, I think it does cut against the exact premise

00:46:37   of the EU regulation, right? But I'm also just, I'm skeptical on a high level. Like,

00:46:41   this feels to me very much like the, you know, like the car without a steering wheel or the

00:46:48   iPod shuffle without any buttons, where there is an ideal here which is picture no ports.

00:46:54   And then I look at the state of affairs in terms of the technology for wireless charging

00:46:59   and data transfer and how people use these things and the fact that everything gets more

00:47:05   complicated if you can't connect to a device if it gets in distress, right?

00:47:11   Like it's the idea that you can't reset, you can't do a DFU currently on an iPhone without

00:47:16   plugging it into a computer.

00:47:17   It's like, well, I know that they could address that,

00:47:20   but it's way more complicated.

00:47:22   And are there magnetic pins that actually do transfer data,

00:47:25   but it's not a port?

00:47:26   Like there's a lot going on here.

00:47:29   And I just wanna, I'm expressing some skepticism

00:47:32   because this feels to me more like a pie in the sky

00:47:35   Apple dream than something that's real.

00:47:38   And the reason I say that is because I think if Apple

00:47:41   did this on its products, maybe not today,

00:47:43   but in the next couple of years,

00:47:44   it feels like a regression, right?

00:47:47   It makes their products worse.

00:47:49   And Apple's not above doing that.

00:47:51   (laughs)

00:47:52   Removing the headphone jack is arguably a regression.

00:47:54   They did it.

00:47:55   It turned out to not be that big a deal,

00:47:56   although it still was somewhat of a regression.

00:47:59   I'm just skeptical that the entirely inductive,

00:48:04   charged universe for all Apple products

00:48:07   is something that's realistic.

00:48:10   - Yeah.

00:48:12   I'm like scanning over these documents.

00:48:14   is obviously too hard for me to try and get an idea

00:48:17   of right now, but I would be super surprised

00:48:21   if like, even if they could get away with Qi charging

00:48:24   as the common connector that's required.

00:48:28   - Yeah.

00:48:29   - I don't think that's possible.

00:48:31   - I don't know.

00:48:32   I mean, I love, look, having a vision like this is great.

00:48:35   And knowing where the technology is going in the future,

00:48:41   in terms of wireless and in terms of inductive

00:48:44   and having a vision, like that's all great.

00:48:49   I like it.

00:48:50   You should do that if you're Apple.

00:48:51   You should be thinking many moves ahead.

00:48:55   However, and I don't know all the insidery stuff

00:49:00   that they probably know, but I look at this

00:49:02   and I think this seems unrealistic

00:49:06   and more like an ideal than something

00:49:11   that everybody is asking for.

00:49:13   And the flip side of the,

00:49:15   oh, people just want a faster horse

00:49:16   and we gave them a car kind of argument is

00:49:19   when you give people something they don't want,

00:49:21   or you ask them to take a hit in terms of usability

00:49:24   for a benefit they don't see.

00:49:27   And Apple has done that in the last decade, a few times.

00:49:32   - I mean, honestly, see the headphone jack, right?

00:49:34   Like people are still upset about that, you know,

00:49:37   but I think it ended up turning out mostly okay

00:49:40   because AirPods are so good, but.

00:49:42   - Sure, but that's the, I mean, the challenge is

00:49:45   that charging infrastructure and the ergonomics of it

00:49:47   are a harder problem to solve, not insoluble,

00:49:50   but a harder problem to solve than something like,

00:49:53   like we made AirPods, so this problem is solved.

00:49:57   And then, you know, they did that with the,

00:50:00   with the butterfly keyboard and with USB-C

00:50:03   and in that whole era, that was very much an era of,

00:50:08   we're taking you to the future because we have a vision.

00:50:10   And everybody else was like, but I was fine

00:50:13   and this is really a regression and I don't like it.

00:50:17   And that is, again, we sort of are there now

00:50:22   with all of that, but they jumped in way too early

00:50:28   and users suffered.

00:50:29   So when I look at this, that's the kind of like

00:50:31   alarm signal that goes off in my head is

00:50:34   this feels like a mission statement.

00:50:37   And the danger with the mission statement is it's allowed to become real without a reality

00:50:44   check happening.

00:50:45   So we'll watch it.

00:50:46   Like I don't doubt Mark's thought that Apple really doesn't like ports and thinks that

00:50:51   they're not necessary.

00:50:53   But I think it's far more likely that magnetic connection, induction, all of those sorts

00:50:58   of things become preferred.

00:51:02   that's not the same as eventually there'll just be no ports. Right? That's not the same

00:51:10   thing.

00:51:11   No.

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00:53:13   Goodbye notebooks.

00:53:14   Oh no, what happened to them?

00:53:16   Where'd they go?

00:53:17   Hello laptops.

00:53:18   Oh, hello laptops!

00:53:20   We love to talk about namings and branding on this show.

00:53:24   I mean, witness earlier.

00:53:26   Witness most of this episode, actually.

00:53:29   9to5Mac discovered over the weekend, or late last week it was,

00:53:34   that Apple appears to be removing reference to the word "notebook"

00:53:40   across their product lines and pages and marketing information,

00:53:45   support documents and replacing it with the word "laptop."

00:53:49   So I wanted to ask you, Jason, kind of roughly how long have Apple been calling their products "notebooks"?

00:53:56   I've forever, right? Because the PowerBook had it embedded in the...

00:54:05   I mean, Macintosh Portable was a portable computer, right?

00:54:09   Was not a laptop.

00:54:11   It's more like you drag it to another desk, right?

00:54:16   It was not to go in your lap.

00:54:17   But the Power Book in 1991 was a notebook,

00:54:22   hence Power Book.

00:54:25   That was the whole metaphor being used there.

00:54:27   The idea that this was a computer

00:54:30   in the shape of a paper notebook, right?

00:54:33   That it was the size roughly of a notebook.

00:54:37   In the early days, it was very thick notebook.

00:54:40   but when you open it up, oh, look, it's a computer

00:54:42   and you can do all sorts of things with it.

00:54:45   And what came into prevalence, of course,

00:54:47   is this idea of a laptop,

00:54:50   that it's a computer that's so small

00:54:51   you can set it in your lap.

00:54:53   And that metaphor seems to have won the day

00:54:55   almost everywhere.

00:54:56   We used to have arguments about this

00:54:58   and use them pretty interchangeably, I think,

00:55:00   at Macworld back in the day.

00:55:02   But clearly when you think about it for more than a minute

00:55:05   and you say the words out loud to yourself,

00:55:08   notebook, it's like, why is that?

00:55:12   What is, right?

00:55:14   It's just like, no, it's wrong.

00:55:16   Like it's not notebook, a notebook computer?

00:55:21   That actually, you know, Myke,

00:55:23   that thing we talked about earlier,

00:55:25   the Kindle whatever with a pen on it, that's a notebook.

00:55:29   - I mean, an iPad is closer to be, especially, right?

00:55:33   'Cause they, if you think of the iPad Pro

00:55:35   or the iPad Air now, they're like part built

00:55:39   for this pencil to go on the side of the thing.

00:55:41   It's all flat and it's got a charging thing.

00:55:43   That's a notebook computer.

00:55:45   - Yeah.

00:55:46   - Not laptops.

00:55:47   - Yeah, so, and I think, I mean, it actually,

00:55:51   it's funny that they're doing this

00:55:52   'cause this is one of those words that really has,

00:55:55   I know it doesn't come from his era,

00:55:57   but like it gives me like Steve Jobs vibes, right?

00:56:02   Like that that was, 'cause he would do that, right?

00:56:04   he would occasionally like embrace certain terms

00:56:07   and you'd be like, well, that's a weird way to put it, Steve,

00:56:09   but that's how Steve does it.

00:56:10   So we're all gonna call them apps now

00:56:12   and that's just how it's gonna be.

00:56:14   And this feels a little like that too.

00:56:17   And I wonder who it was who finally inside Apple

00:56:20   was like, everybody, we have to stop calling these things

00:56:23   notebooks, nobody does.

00:56:25   And it probably, you know what probably won the day?

00:56:28   Probably it was like a search engine optimization expert

00:56:32   who said, "People don't search for notebook!"

00:56:34   (laughs)

00:56:36   And they're like, "They search for laptop,

00:56:38   we're losing sales, we're losing search hits

00:56:40   because we're using the wrong term."

00:56:42   And finally somebody at Apple said,

00:56:45   "All right, okay, it's fine."

00:56:49   You know, that's my guess.

00:56:52   - Laptop is just, I mean, about,

00:56:56   even then it's like laptop.

00:56:59   You know what I mean?

00:57:00   Like, the people, laptop,

00:57:04   do you think people use their laptops

00:57:06   mostly on their laps anymore?

00:57:08   - No, I mean, no, I mean, the name is dumb.

00:57:11   And I should say MacBook is still the name, right?

00:57:13   So notebook, MacBook, it's still book there.

00:57:17   Although you could argue the MacBook notebook is dumb, right?

00:57:20   It's using MacBook laptop.

00:57:21   We have a, we're not doubling up on the metaphor.

00:57:26   Laptop, I mean, it's, okay.

00:57:30   for a very long time now,

00:57:32   most Macs have been laptops.

00:57:36   - Yes. - So,

00:57:38   there is a larger issue here, which is,

00:57:42   I refer sometimes to desktop computers, right?

00:57:46   Desktop computers.

00:57:48   And sometimes they're, you know, under your desktop

00:57:50   or on your floor or whatever.

00:57:52   But the desktop laptop parallel

00:57:56   is sort of what we're getting at here,

00:57:58   that there are two kinds of computers,

00:58:00   the kinds that are portable

00:58:02   and the kinds that are not portable.

00:58:04   But the truth is the majority of Macs,

00:58:06   the definitive Mac for the last decade

00:58:08   has been the MacBook Air, I would say.

00:58:10   It's probably the most best-selling laptop

00:58:12   and best-selling computer

00:58:13   that they've sold over the last decade.

00:58:16   So isn't it just a computer?

00:58:18   But we need some other word to,

00:58:22   at least sometimes, to signify the difference

00:58:24   between a computer that comes with its own display

00:58:26   and a battery and is small enough that you can fold it up

00:58:29   and take it somewhere.

00:58:30   And the ones like my Mac studio, which you can't.

00:58:34   I mean, you can't fold it up.

00:58:37   You could take it somewhere else.

00:58:39   It doesn't have a screen though.

00:58:40   It doesn't have any of those other things.

00:58:41   It doesn't have its own keyboard, doesn't have a battery.

00:58:43   So we're left with desktop laptop.

00:58:47   That's just sort of where we are is that over there

00:58:50   is a desktop over here is the laptop.

00:58:51   But yeah, in terms of meaning, all it really means is

00:58:54   you could put it on your lap.

00:58:56   - If you wanted to. - And use it.

00:58:58   If you wanted to, and people do,

00:59:00   but that's not the only place they use them, but you could.

00:59:03   - Also with macOS Ventura, this is from a 95 Mac article,

00:59:07   a newly set up MacBook Air or MacBook Pro

00:59:11   will now be called blank laptop by default.

00:59:15   It used to be blank MacBook Air or blank MacBook Pro.

00:59:19   Now that's weirder.

00:59:20   - Right, right. - Right?

00:59:22   - So you get a brand new MacBook Air and set it up

00:59:25   and it's gonna be called Myke's laptop.

00:59:27   - Rather than Myke's MacBook Air.

00:59:29   - Myke's MacBook Air.

00:59:30   What's next?

00:59:32   Are they gonna change the mail signature

00:59:33   to be sent from my smartphone?

00:59:35   - Sent from my, but like that I would have,

00:59:38   that is like, if you would have said to me,

00:59:40   they're gonna change the default thing in Macos Ventura,

00:59:43   that is the least likely one that I would have picked.

00:59:46   I would naturally have assumed

00:59:48   they would just call it Myke's MacBook.

00:59:50   Like they're all just called MacBooks, right?

00:59:52   - Right.

00:59:53   - Instead of laptop.

00:59:54   It's like, why would you do that?

00:59:56   That is a very strange decision to make.

00:59:59   I feel like it doesn't match up

01:00:01   with these other things in a way.

01:00:03   I find that very odd.

01:00:05   - I do too.

01:00:05   It's weird.

01:00:07   It's weird.

01:00:08   - Now I wanna know, what happens if you set up an iMac?

01:00:11   Is it like Myke's computer?

01:00:13   Like what is that called?

01:00:15   Myke's personal computation device?

01:00:19   - Possibly.

01:00:19   So here's my guess.

01:00:22   I'm just gonna throw out a guess here.

01:00:23   not knowing the real answer, but why not?

01:00:25   It's a podcast.

01:00:26   I wonder if there was a complaint

01:00:31   from somebody who administers a lot of devices

01:00:34   about the MacBook Air, MacBook Pro thing,

01:00:37   especially since when you migrate, it keeps the name.

01:00:40   So you migrate from a MacBook Air to a MacBook Pro,

01:00:44   and it keeps the name MacBook Air,

01:00:46   even though it's not a MacBook Air anymore.

01:00:49   This is like how my iPhone 13 mini,

01:00:53   when I migrated to the iPhone 14 Pro, it said, you know,

01:00:56   13 mini, like that's not your name,

01:00:59   but it doesn't know that.

01:01:00   By the way, that would be smart

01:01:01   if they were smart enough to rename.

01:01:03   - Why don't they do that? - If you did use a product name

01:01:05   to rename it and they don't do that.

01:01:07   - So I set up my new AirPods Pro and it just said,

01:01:11   Myke's AirPods Pro, parentheses two,

01:01:14   well, not just actually two, which is what it is.

01:01:17   Why could you not work that out?

01:01:19   You know, like I do find that annoying.

01:01:21   or like you say, set up a new iPhone,

01:01:23   and now it's called Myke's iPhone 13 Pro Max 2.

01:01:27   - 2.

01:01:28   - You know what you are.

01:01:30   Nobody wants to keep the name, right?

01:01:32   If I've not changed the name,

01:01:34   you should change it for me, right?

01:01:37   - Especially if you can use, you know,

01:01:39   some of your fancy on-device intelligence

01:01:41   to recognize that this is literally the name

01:01:43   of the product that I was on before,

01:01:45   and therefore, when I come to a new product,

01:01:47   I should change it to the name of the new product.

01:01:49   This isn't hard.

01:01:50   Considering that you do change it, right?

01:01:52   Like you do change it by adding the number at the end.

01:01:55   So you do feel like it needs to be changed, right?

01:01:58   So you're changing it.

01:02:00   If you feel like it needs to be changed

01:02:01   and are therefore changing it,

01:02:03   why not actually make it correct?

01:02:05   That's a very strange one.

01:02:07   But yeah, so there you go.

01:02:08   The laptops now, no more notebooks.

01:02:11   - No more notebooks except the MacBook itself.

01:02:14   - Maybe it's gonna be called MacTop.

01:02:16   MacTop, MacLap.

01:02:18   - Laptop Pro Max.

01:02:19   (laughing)

01:02:20   - Lap Mac Pro Max.

01:02:22   (laughing)

01:02:23   - Lap Book Pro Max.

01:02:27   Yeah, the Lap Book Air.

01:02:28   - Oh, they call it Laptop Pro Max

01:02:30   and it's M-A-C-S at the end.

01:02:32   It's Laptop Pro Max.

01:02:34   - Oh, I like it.

01:02:35   So they're all Macs.

01:02:36   So it would be like Laptop Air Max, M-A-C-S.

01:02:40   (laughing)

01:02:40   - Air Max 95.

01:02:42   - Woo, woo.

01:02:44   Well, I feel like somebody at Apple was listening,

01:02:48   a recruiter at Apple was listening to this episode

01:02:49   for some reason, and we're like saying,

01:02:51   these two gents really know what they're doing.

01:02:53   We should hire them to work on our product naming team.

01:02:56   And they just got to that last one minute

01:02:58   and they're like, stop and throw away trash.

01:03:01   - We were so close. - These guys are dummies.

01:03:03   - We were so close. - We were almost in,

01:03:05   but we are back out.

01:03:06   - So close, but yes, so far.

01:03:08   I have some more good news.

01:03:11   - Okay.

01:03:12   - The Matter 1.0 standard has finally been finalized.

01:03:17   So it's really taken its time.

01:03:21   - It takes a lot of effort to get these tech giants to agree

01:03:24   on home automation standards, I guess.

01:03:29   - Sure, I mean--

01:03:30   - But we did it.

01:03:30   We did it everybody.

01:03:32   - And also this is one of those things

01:03:34   where very complicated and you only get a first shot

01:03:38   at first impression, so make it right.

01:03:41   I wanted to give everyone a bit of a refresh

01:03:43   'cause I did some reading today about Matter,

01:03:45   about kind of what it's gonna be doing

01:03:47   and what we can expect, because it was one of those things

01:03:50   where I was personally kind of waiting until this point

01:03:53   to really spend a lot of time reading about it,

01:03:55   because it felt like it could change or just never happen.

01:03:59   I was wondering, is matter ever actually going to happen?

01:04:02   Well, it is.

01:04:03   So it is officially launching on November 3rd,

01:04:05   and there's gonna be this event of some description.

01:04:08   I don't think anything particularly exciting will be there,

01:04:11   but it's like the matter organization

01:04:14   is inviting people of the media to go to an event.

01:04:17   New devices can be sold as of now.

01:04:32   Existing devices can now be upgraded to support MATA.

01:04:35   Many will be upgraded.

01:04:45   iOS 16.1 is where matter support will happen

01:04:48   in the home app, including the,

01:04:51   now do you remember Jason, Apple said that the home app

01:04:55   will have underlying changes to support matter?

01:04:59   - Yes.

01:05:00   - This is because of what is called a matter controller.

01:05:04   These are-- - I tried something

01:05:06   out of Star Trek. - Yes.

01:05:07   These are effectively hubs, bridges, that kind of thing.

01:05:12   You know like how you need like a hub to be able to get some things to talk to each other

01:05:16   or whatever.

01:05:17   Yeah.

01:05:18   Some devices can become matter controllers.

01:05:21   Google, Amazon, their smarts, some of their smart speakers will be updated to be controllers.

01:05:26   The HomePod mini can be a matter controller.

01:05:29   A HomeKit hub is the best analog here.

01:05:33   Kind of.

01:05:34   Because this is the separate part.

01:05:36   Yeah.

01:05:37   Apps can be matter controllers.

01:05:40   It doesn't have to be tied to a physical piece of hardware that stays in your home.

01:05:48   Because the matter controller is designed to create the links between the devices and

01:05:55   also set any automations.

01:05:58   So when Apple were talking about the underlying changes to the home app, what they're talking

01:06:05   about is making the home app a matter controller.

01:06:08   So you actually don't necessarily need to buy any hardware that stays in your home specifically

01:06:16   for this.

01:06:17   - The dream here is you connect everything on Matter and you set up an automation that

01:06:24   says when device A fires, device B does something else.

01:06:28   And device A and device B can see each other and talk to each other.

01:06:33   So you don't need to have another device watching device A and then telling device B what to

01:06:38   do. Device A says to device B directly "I did this" and device B says "oh well then

01:06:44   I do this" right?

01:06:46   Yeah this is a great summary of that which I enjoyed from the Verge. With Matter instead

01:06:51   of using two or three separate apps and connecting their cloud service backends to get your smart

01:06:56   plug to turn on your lamp when you unlock your front door, that plug and lock can now

01:07:00   talk directly to each other and you can set up automation using one Matter controller

01:07:05   app.

01:07:06   So you set up the links, but then the devices talk to each other.

01:07:11   And it's actually all of this is done without the requirement of the internet at all.

01:07:16   Matter all works locally by design.

01:07:19   It does not require a connection to the internet.

01:07:22   It is possible for devices to be internet controllable if desired by the user, but it

01:07:27   is not a necessary part of the specification.

01:07:29   - Right, so like Apple is undoubtedly adding

01:07:32   this whole home app layer with other Apple devices

01:07:37   where you can continue to do what you can do now,

01:07:39   which is control them outside of your home.

01:07:42   But you don't have to do that.

01:07:44   - No, you don't have to do that.

01:07:45   And this is really, it is kind of like networking based.

01:07:50   So if you have Thread devices,

01:07:53   you will need a Matter Thread hub to get that all to work.

01:07:57   'cause Thread is all just like direct control,

01:07:59   but it's networking, but not internet,

01:08:02   if that makes sense, right?

01:08:03   So like it's using networking like equipment,

01:08:06   where Thread is just this local radio system.

01:08:10   Now Thread devices don't work naturally with--

01:08:13   - The HomePod Mini has a Thread radio, right?

01:08:15   - Yes.

01:08:15   - So I would imagine that the HomePod Mini

01:08:16   would be an example of a device that could do that,

01:08:18   that could talk to Thread devices

01:08:20   and act as the matter controller.

01:08:21   - I will say in theory.

01:08:23   - In theory.

01:08:24   - I think Apple need to say that it will do that first.

01:08:26   But yes, it may be a device like a HomePod Mini

01:08:31   or some kind of Google device will work

01:08:34   and or the company that you use

01:08:37   that are all thread related might make a hub

01:08:39   and then that will work.

01:08:41   Or the company will just be able to update the software on it

01:08:44   and they can make it work

01:08:45   if it has some kind of radio in it.

01:08:47   But thread is maybe one of the ones

01:08:49   which is a little bit left out here

01:08:52   of the idea of not needing new hardware.

01:08:54   you may need something to get those things to connect.

01:08:57   Which is a shame because up until this point,

01:08:59   Thread was considered the easiest way to do all this stuff.

01:09:03   Because it was so low level.

01:09:04   But, you know, you may need it, but you may not,

01:09:07   depending on the other devices that you have in your home

01:09:10   that could work as a controller.

01:09:12   Like in theory, that might be where you want something

01:09:15   like a HomePod mini or one of the Google Nest Hub things.

01:09:20   Where it's like that is a physical thing

01:09:22   which is acting as that bridge, right?

01:09:25   So when your phone isn't there, it might still work.

01:09:28   That's conjecture on my part.

01:09:29   I don't know the answer to that, but.

01:09:31   This launch spec only will cover a limited set

01:09:35   of device types in Matter 1.0.

01:09:38   These are light bulbs and light switches,

01:09:41   HVAC controls, smart shades, thermostats, smart sensors,

01:09:47   I assume that's like presence sensors and stuff,

01:09:50   locks and media devices including TVs. Support for devices like vacuums and cameras

01:09:58   is being developed for later versions of the specification.

01:10:02   My understanding, but I don't know this for sure, is that updates to the spec are not going to be

01:10:11   like a huge deal, right? But it's going to be a thing that just over time will add more and more

01:10:17   stuff. So that's kind of where we are with matter right now. I'm pretty excited

01:10:23   about it. A lot of companies are talking about the devices that are going to be

01:10:27   updated. Some devices that you already own will be able to be

01:10:32   updated to matter. Some you may need to get a newer model. Like for example I

01:10:36   think Nest are adding support, a matter support to their thermostats, but I think

01:10:40   only on the newest model. But what that would mean though if you have that

01:10:46   model is in theory you would be able to ask your HomePod to change your temperature and

01:10:53   it will change the temperature of your Nest thermostat, which is exactly what people want.

01:10:59   That is why this exists.

01:11:01   I run Homebridge mostly so I can do this one thing, which is connect Nest to the Home app.

01:11:07   So that may be enough actually for me to buy another Nest.

01:11:11   Now, there are other thermostats out there.

01:11:14   I like the Nest.

01:11:15   I really do.

01:11:16   I prefer it to the Ecobee,

01:11:18   mostly because I like how it looks, honestly.

01:11:23   And that might be enough to do it.

01:11:24   But that's the dream, right?

01:11:25   Is that all these things that have been like,

01:11:27   well, you can't do Amazon things

01:11:31   and Google things and Apple things in the home.

01:11:33   And guess what?

01:11:34   I have all three of those things in my home.

01:11:37   And theoretically, this will allow you to do that.

01:11:40   - Or you have a device manufacturer

01:11:42   that's gone all in on one thing.

01:11:44   Well, now they can talk to each other.

01:11:45   So like, you know, I use Eve products in the studio here

01:11:50   and they are like basically all in on HomeKit.

01:11:52   But now Eve are going to be integrating Matter.

01:11:55   So I would be able to get my Eve radiator,

01:11:59   like controller devices to maybe talk to some kind of sensor

01:12:03   I buy from another company,

01:12:05   rather than it necessarily needing to all be HomeKit.

01:12:09   And one of the things that's worth noting is,

01:12:12   what the Matter spec will allow

01:12:14   for some kind of communication automation stuff between these devices.

01:12:18   It does not remove entirely the need for apps.

01:12:25   There might be some features of a Nest thermostat that you still need to use the Nest app to

01:12:30   configure, but once it's configured or updated or whatever, the day-to-day control can be

01:12:38   more automated and you can use whatever you want to control it.

01:12:41   it doesn't completely remove the requirement to use this app, use that app.

01:12:48   My ancient Philips Hue bridge will apparently get a software update to support Matter.

01:12:53   Yep, Philips are all in. And this is the benefit where some, if you do have a product which

01:13:00   uses bridges, like in Philips have always had bridges, it's in fact the only way that

01:13:04   Hue devices work is with a bridge, they are able to just update the bridge and then all

01:13:09   the light bulbs will be able to, because they will just talk to the bridge and so that's

01:13:13   great but not all bridge based products will support this but Philips are all in on this

01:13:18   which I'm very happy about and I actually think is not a surprise to Philips because

01:13:21   they've they've always been pretty good with this kind of stuff. So yeah, Joe in the discord

01:13:27   is asking this is kind of what I was talking about, has anyone seen if Matter has something

01:13:31   for how it handles firmware updates for devices? That's the kind of thing you will need third

01:13:36   party apps for. You still need the app for those devices to do things like updates. To

01:13:41   my knowledge, Matter has no support for any of that. It's not an OS. It's not like this

01:13:49   replaces Google Nest or whatever. By and large, you as the user will never see Matter other

01:13:55   than knowing when you buy a product, you want to see the Matter logo on it. I don't even

01:14:00   think there's like a matter app like it's it's just a technology but it's not

01:14:04   about replacing anything specifically it's more about just providing this

01:14:10   open source framework that all of these devices can talk to each other for I'm

01:14:15   super excited about the future of home automation because of this like this is

01:14:21   exactly what we need this is the I this the market has one out here which is a

01:14:26   a bananas thing because this never happens.

01:14:28   The reason this has happened is that

01:14:31   all of these companies came to,

01:14:34   like basically at the same time, right?

01:14:36   Like Google and Amazon, Philips, you know, like Apple,

01:14:40   they all came at the same time with this idea.

01:14:43   And no one could decide on one of them

01:14:44   because really none of them are any better than any other.

01:14:48   And so it's forced all of these companies to work together

01:14:50   to make it better for the consumer.

01:14:53   And that's awesome.

01:14:54   And it sounds like Apple donated its home kit code

01:14:58   to make this happen, which is also kind of cool.

01:15:00   - Yeah.

01:15:01   - But Apple said, we wrote this

01:15:03   and it sounds like everybody else was like,

01:15:05   it's pretty good, we could use this as the base.

01:15:07   And it's this detente that we've been talking about

01:15:09   for a long time.

01:15:10   This idea that it is the single biggest thing

01:15:14   keeping smart home, holding smart home technology back

01:15:17   is that everybody, it was a gold rush.

01:15:20   Everybody wanted to win.

01:15:22   They threw up walls everywhere

01:15:24   so that things were incompatible.

01:15:26   It was bad for the manufacturers.

01:15:27   It increased their expense to make products

01:15:30   'cause they had to either make different SKUs

01:15:31   for different tech,

01:15:32   or they had to write the same support three times

01:15:35   in order for it to work on Google and Amazon and Apple.

01:15:38   And it meant that some products would just never come

01:15:41   to certain platforms.

01:15:42   And they finally realized that the land rush era was over

01:15:46   and that they were just defeating themselves by doing this.

01:15:50   And that was what, two plus years ago with Chip,

01:15:53   whatever it was, that they finally announced

01:15:57   they were doing this, but November 3rd, right?

01:16:00   So less than a month from now, we enter the Matter era.

01:16:04   I'm sure there are gonna be complaints.

01:16:05   I'm sure there's gonna be things that work weirdly.

01:16:08   People are gonna be frustrated by stuff

01:16:09   that doesn't get upgraded to it.

01:16:10   I'm also kind of curious about whether

01:16:12   those homebridge type products of the world shift gears

01:16:16   to be like more just trying to get

01:16:20   non-matter compatible stuff into matter,

01:16:23   or if there'll be a new,

01:16:24   I know nothing about what they're planning,

01:16:26   but like I can still see a place

01:16:28   for something like Homebridge or Home Control,

01:16:32   but in a different context of like,

01:16:35   really our goal now is to just get anything that's old

01:16:38   to show up in matter.

01:16:41   - I mean, in my mind,

01:16:44   like I feel like they have to do something

01:16:46   because over time the need for something like a home bridge

01:16:50   will decrease.

01:16:51   - Right.

01:16:52   - Because--

01:16:53   - Yeah, because of matter.

01:16:54   - In theory every device that you should be buying

01:16:57   should be matter.

01:16:58   - And maybe in the end what it really is

01:16:59   is it's a software matter controller, right?

01:17:03   Something like that.

01:17:04   I don't know, I don't know what they're planning,

01:17:06   but I do think that there's still gonna be a place

01:17:08   for some of that stuff just to be a bridge

01:17:10   from old tech to new tech.

01:17:12   - Yeah, I agree with that.

01:17:14   But that feels like not a great over, I mean, not that Homebridge is a business,

01:17:18   but it's not really like a long term product at that point, right?

01:17:21   Like, because then within a matter of years, people would upgrade or a matter of

01:17:25   time, maybe, maybe a decade, people would change their devices and hopefully

01:17:29   they'll be matter supported.

01:17:30   Because this is one of those things now where I feel like if you're buying

01:17:34   smart home technology, you really want to make sure that that company will be

01:17:38   updating the thing that you're buying to support matter.

01:17:41   Like really, I would say that you shouldn't buy something unless it's going to have the support

01:17:47   because it harms you not all and it future proofs you, I think. So I think this is the clear way to

01:17:56   go when it comes to home automation technology. This episode is brought to you by CleanMyMac X.

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01:20:29   Let's do some #AskUpgradeQuestions to finish out today's episode.

01:20:36   First question comes from Terminal 3, which I like to think is the Heathrow Terminal 3,

01:20:42   like Heathrow Airport Terminal 3, just wants to know.

01:20:44   Jason, how did you spend your birthday?

01:20:47   It was Jason's birthday this past week.

01:20:50   Happy birthday, Jason!

01:20:51   Yes, it was.

01:20:52   Thank you.

01:20:53   Uh, pretty normal day, honestly, because Lauren was working all day, so, and it's the busy

01:20:59   season for us, so, and there were no baseball games on, which is sad, because I always like

01:21:03   to do that. So I wrote some of my macOS Ventura review, I got yelled at by you and Steven,

01:21:10   who said I should be curling or something instead. That's how curling works.

01:21:12   Just doing anything else other than writing, because you were angry too, you were just

01:21:16   having like a bad time with it.

01:21:18   Little preview of my macOS Ventura review, some of the features aren't very good. You

01:21:23   can guess which ones.

01:21:24   That was more of it for me, you know, if you want to work on your birthday, work on your

01:21:27   birthday but work on something fun at least. Yeah well I mean it was I mean I

01:21:31   did get it out honestly clearing things out of the to-do list is a little bit

01:21:36   fun when it's so overwhelming like it is in September but we had a nice dinner

01:21:42   and went to a couple of concerts last week too so that was kind of fun so we

01:21:47   had some we did some nice stuff but it was not entirely concentrated on my

01:21:51   birthday and that's okay. David wants to know seems like a long time since

01:21:56   "Eddie Q presented at an Apple event.

01:21:58   "He used to be a regular.

01:21:59   "When do you think we'll see Eddie again?"

01:22:01   I wanted to pick this question out

01:22:02   'cause we spent so much time talking about Eddie Q last week.

01:22:06   What do you think about the lack of Eddie Q?

01:22:10   - It's not, he's not great at it,

01:22:12   at the presenting on, you know, on stage or in an event.

01:22:15   And it's not, there are other people who like,

01:22:19   for Apple TV stuff,

01:22:21   there should be other people to present it.

01:22:25   Like, I don't know, it's just,

01:22:26   he's not necessary for that sort of thing.

01:22:28   He, and it is not, here's what I will say.

01:22:31   You don't wanna be at a company

01:22:34   where people insist on screen time

01:22:37   in order to prove how important they are.

01:22:40   - I think Google has this problem.

01:22:42   - Google, I mean, I don't know about the last couple

01:22:45   of years, I haven't watched a full Google thing live

01:22:49   in a while.

01:22:50   - Well, I/O is where you see this issue the most, I think.

01:22:52   - But definitely you see it where it's like every

01:22:55   vice president has to have their five minutes even if they don't have anything to announce,

01:23:00   just to exert their power. And like Eddie, you know, Eddie's living his best life and

01:23:07   services are a very important part of Apple's business. His presence in the photo on the

01:23:12   May Day Parade at the top of the Kremlin is not, you know, is not required for him to

01:23:18   be still there and powerful. And I think it's interesting that he was in all those photos

01:23:22   or many of those photos last week from the big European trip, shows you he's still a

01:23:27   mover and a shaker and a schmoozer and he doesn't have to be, you know, doing his dad

01:23:34   dance out there like he did that one time. He doesn't have to do that. He doesn't have

01:23:40   to be present for that sort of thing.

01:23:42   So my kind of read on this is somewhat similar, which is like, I think there was a time when

01:23:48   Apple presentations, every kind of like head of each division would be the person to deliver

01:23:55   the presentation about that portion of whatever was spoken about, right? So they would have,

01:24:01   you know, you want a software, right? Well, now we're going to get forced all up. We're

01:24:05   going to talk about hardware. Well, now Sheila's going to, you know, it was like a kind of

01:24:09   a person who had the fiefdom and they would bring out each person to talk about each area.

01:24:15   - And that started to then change over time

01:24:17   where they ended up just relying on the best presenters.

01:24:20   So like Craig Federighi had an increased role.

01:24:22   And then I think they've done an even better thing

01:24:24   where now they bring in people from the teams

01:24:29   that aren't the same people every time.

01:24:32   And I think in doing this,

01:24:33   they're able to showcase the diversity of employee

01:24:37   that they actually have at the company.

01:24:38   And it's not all just middle-aged white men

01:24:41   which is the majority of the leadership team, right?

01:24:43   They're able to mix it up more.

01:24:44   Ironically, EdiQ is Cuban, but yes, the point is that they--

01:24:48   - I'm not talking about Edi specifically here.

01:24:50   I'm talking about-- - Yeah, they changed

01:24:51   their way of presenting and who presents

01:24:53   to be a very different sort of thing

01:24:55   where you're not gonna have the same five people

01:24:58   out there every time.

01:24:59   - My point here is not to talk about Edi specifically.

01:25:02   It's more just a change in the process,

01:25:04   to which I will say Edi has been lost

01:25:06   in the shuffle of the new process,

01:25:08   which is to have people in each division

01:25:11   come out and talk about it,

01:25:13   which is not necessarily the person in charge of each division.

01:25:17   I will say, Greg Joss-Wieck seems like a really nice guy.

01:25:22   I don't think he is necessarily the best person

01:25:24   to be talking about the iPhone Pro anymore,

01:25:27   but, you know, you can have your own differing opinions on that.

01:25:29   -I mean, he's at the top level, right?

01:25:31   I mean, he's at the top level, like Jeff Williams or something,

01:25:34   where it sort of, like, then introduces all the people beneath.

01:25:37   That's the -- he's in the part that Steve would have been in.

01:25:40   -Joss does the whole thing about the Pro iPhone.

01:25:42   - Does he do the whole thing?

01:25:42   - Yes.

01:25:43   - Well, he's probably not doing that.

01:25:44   - And I don't think that he's the best person for that.

01:25:46   Like, Karen Jants is like a way better presenter,

01:25:49   I think, Karen does the iPhone, right?

01:25:52   Is that right?

01:25:53   Is that, yeah, I think so.

01:25:55   And she does a much better--

01:25:58   - Kayan, not Karen.

01:25:59   - Kayan, thank you.

01:26:00   Thank you.

01:26:01   I was, I, Y and an R, I got them mixed up.

01:26:05   Kayan Jants does a better job, right, of that, I think.

01:26:08   Anyway.

01:26:09   - It's an I.

01:26:10   (laughing)

01:26:10   - Oh my God.

01:26:11   You're killing me here, alright?

01:26:13   Well, you know, I want to get the name right.

01:26:16   Well, you googled it, right? To confirm?

01:26:19   I'm just speaking here.

01:26:21   I googled it because I knew it wasn't Karen, but it's Kian with an I.

01:26:25   I was mixing up the R from Drance.

01:26:27   That's what I'm going to say, alright? I'm trying.

01:26:29   We know her husband.

01:26:31   Shh, we know her husband.

01:26:33   Oh my god, I didn't know that.

01:26:35   It's Matt's.

01:26:37   Okay. Anyway, all of this to say, I think Eddie has been lost in the shuffle for this

01:26:42   because I think in Eddie's division, he's just not the right person anymore because

01:26:46   like the majority of Eddie's division now is probably TV Plus. And if you're gonna have

01:26:52   someone come out now to talk about that, you want the content people, not the deals guy.

01:26:57   Yeah.

01:26:58   Because no one wants to hear about the deals that are made. You want to hear about the

01:27:01   content that's made.

01:27:02   He's a mover and a shaker and a schmoozer and he's living his best life and he's at

01:27:06   Oktoberfest and he doesn't need to be more than that.

01:27:09   I have a question from David who asks, "Do you think Apple will ever allow third-party

01:27:14   watch faces?"

01:27:15   Is this an underscore David Smith?

01:27:18   No.

01:27:19   This is actually David Dooley, our artwork designer.

01:27:22   Oh, okay.

01:27:23   Alright.

01:27:24   But then I put in a link to a David Smith tweet.

01:27:28   Of David Smith making new watch faces.

01:27:31   It's a conspiracy of David's.

01:27:32   It's the David's conspiracy.

01:27:35   The, do I think Apple will ever allow third-party watch faces?

01:27:40   I'm gonna say yes, ever,

01:27:44   because Apple does a lot of things that we say

01:27:47   they'll never ever do eventually as a platform matures

01:27:50   and they're looking for other ways for it to be interesting.

01:27:52   And I think that they will, there will come a point

01:27:56   where they will allow a certain level.

01:27:58   Obviously it's gonna be like face kit or something,

01:28:01   and there's gonna be limitations on what you can do

01:28:03   and you have to use Apple's pieces,

01:28:05   and there's gonna be, you know,

01:28:07   you can't use anybody else's intellectual property,

01:28:09   and there'll have to be apps in the app store

01:28:10   that'll be approved, and like,

01:28:12   there'll be lots of restrictions on it,

01:28:16   but I do think it will happen at some point,

01:28:18   because it will be a way for Apple to extol the virtues

01:28:23   of the watch in a new way.

01:28:26   And at some point, you get in the life cycle of a product

01:28:29   where you're like, okay, we have the ability to do it,

01:28:32   and it'll make us look good,

01:28:34   and it'll bring in all these other faces,

01:28:36   and we'll have approval over everything,

01:28:39   and developers will be happy,

01:28:41   and like, why not do it at this point?

01:28:43   Because we've reached year 10 or whatever,

01:28:46   the Apple Watch, we might as well go ahead with it.

01:28:48   I think it's inevitable at some point.

01:28:51   And most of the arguments against it

01:28:54   that I hear from people

01:28:55   are that the intellectual property arguments,

01:28:58   and the App Store approval process kinda clears that up.

01:29:02   Like, first off, as a developer, you have to say,

01:29:05   "No, this is not somebody,

01:29:07   doesn't violate anybody's intellectual property."

01:29:09   And if somebody raises their hand and says,

01:29:10   "Actually, it does.

01:29:11   It violates our patent or whatever

01:29:13   on our trade dress of our watch or whatever,"

01:29:16   then Apple says, "Show us some proof,"

01:29:18   and they pull the face down.

01:29:20   And I know, you know,

01:29:21   that can lead to some controversies and all that,

01:29:23   but like, this is the process for this stuff.

01:29:25   It's not really any different

01:29:26   from any other App Store submission thing.

01:29:29   - I'm not convinced, you know.

01:29:31   - That they'll do it?

01:29:33   - Ever?

01:29:34   - I mean within a reasonable timeframe, right?

01:29:36   'Cause like ever is like whatever.

01:29:38   - That wasn't the question.

01:29:39   - Yeah, I know, but like I'm honestly, I don't know.

01:29:41   - In the next two years, I'd say, I don't know.

01:29:43   - But I could say in the next 10 years, I don't think so.

01:29:46   - Yeah, all right.

01:29:47   - Because it's essentially, would they allow anybody else

01:29:52   to redesign the UI of the iPhone home screen?

01:29:56   Like you can have your own home screen layout

01:29:58   that's completely designed by a third-party developer.

01:30:02   - You mean like widgets and custom icons?

01:30:04   - No, I mean like not that,

01:30:06   because that's complications, right?

01:30:08   A new watch face design is like,

01:30:10   oh, we're gonna allow a third party

01:30:12   to design how icons are arranged on the screen

01:30:16   and where the clock goes on the lock screen

01:30:18   and where the battery indicator goes.

01:30:20   Like, it feels way more,

01:30:22   'cause we already have that, right?

01:30:24   Like widgets, it already exists, they're complications,

01:30:26   and you can put them in a bunch of different formats

01:30:29   and you can have them already on there.

01:30:31   Like, I think it's too much.

01:30:32   - I don't agree because I think that in fact,

01:30:36   the existence of the complications

01:30:38   is the thing that makes it still be kind of

01:30:41   under Apple's control,

01:30:42   that you've got to design a watch face that we approve

01:30:46   and that these are the complication slots.

01:30:48   And you do that and you're exerting a level of control

01:30:52   over it that sort of limits what a watch face can be.

01:30:55   And that's sort of how I'm picturing it.

01:30:56   is not, "Oh, people will just write an app

01:30:58   that's the Carrot Weather watch face.

01:31:01   And all the data on it is from Carrot Weather,

01:31:03   and they're using it, and it's literally just an app

01:31:07   that runs all the time."

01:31:08   Well, that's not what I'm saying.

01:31:09   I'm saying, well, no, Carrot Weather.

01:31:11   If you wanna display, if you wanna write a watch face app,

01:31:14   I guess you can, but the only way

01:31:15   you're gonna be displaying data

01:31:17   is through our complications API.

01:31:19   That's how you do it.

01:31:21   And all you're really doing as a custom watch face

01:31:24   is adding the design of all the stuff

01:31:27   that goes around the complications

01:31:28   and choosing which complications you use.

01:31:30   That's sort of how I'm envisioning it, right?

01:31:31   It's not freedom, it's very limited,

01:31:35   'cause we'll, and if they ever do it,

01:31:37   it'll be like, "Oh yay, custom watch faces!"

01:31:39   And then everybody will look at the rules

01:31:40   and they're like, "Oh, oh, it only lets you do this."

01:31:44   And that sounds very much like something

01:31:46   Apple will do eventually.

01:31:47   - And Nougatmachine asks,

01:31:50   Next year we have we expect a periscope lens system to debut on the iPhone

01:31:55   Should we expect it to follow a similar pattern to the initial rollout of wide and telephoto lenses?

01:32:01   Where it's initially impressive to have all of it on an expensive phone

01:32:05   But with future versions quickly making the first iteration of that seem crude. So I'm thinking of say something like

01:32:11   2x lens or

01:32:16   maybe a portrait mode or something like that?

01:32:19   Like, do we expect that it will start one way,

01:32:22   and probably be on the most expensive phone,

01:32:23   and then move forward in a way

01:32:25   that makes the initial one seem kind of basic?

01:32:29   - I mean, that's always the way it is, right?

01:32:30   It's gonna start out amazing,

01:32:32   and then future versions will leave it in the dust.

01:32:34   That's just how it is.

01:32:35   But I feel like my question about how periscope lenses work

01:32:40   and how they work on the other smartphones now

01:32:44   and how Apple will choose to implement it is,

01:32:46   are you, is there one thing with a periscope?

01:32:50   I was kind of assuming that there was one periscope path

01:32:54   and that all the sensors are on the other side of it,

01:32:56   if that makes sense, that you could actually simplify it,

01:33:00   because you're using so much space for the periscope

01:33:02   that wouldn't you have like,

01:33:05   but I guess you gotta have,

01:33:05   I guess the optics have to be different.

01:33:08   I'm curious about how this is constructed, right?

01:33:10   I assume that the periscope lens is gonna be the,

01:33:13   main camera, but I don't know.

01:33:18   And I don't know enough about optics,

01:33:19   but that's what I'm curious about is like,

01:33:20   how do you redefine what an iPhone camera is

01:33:23   if you've got actually more focal length, essentially?

01:33:28   How does that look and how does that work?

01:33:30   - Will it be the main camera?

01:33:33   I don't know.

01:33:36   'Cause the idea-- - Or is it a zoom?

01:33:37   - Well, the idea of the periscope is zooming.

01:33:40   Like that's its like function is to allow for a stronger optical zoom.

01:33:47   So it's the normal boring, haha, 48 megapixel camera that we have today, but the 3x becomes a

01:33:53   super periscope mega zoom like on the Samsung phones, like 100x or whatever they are.

01:33:59   It could be part of the reason that the 2x came back because then it's going to be like a 5x.

01:34:04   So it'd be like one, two, five.

01:34:06   - 10X.

01:34:07   - And then it goes up to 10 maybe.

01:34:11   But like it would start and be much more.

01:34:14   I expect that this will be a,

01:34:16   I mean all Jason it's a fourth camera, I don't know.

01:34:19   Like maybe.

01:34:20   Like genuinely like maybe, right?

01:34:22   Like it's already a square and you've got three in there.

01:34:25   Put a fourth in there, you know?

01:34:26   Maybe, I don't know.

01:34:27   - Why not?

01:34:28   - I think that the Samsung Ultra is four cameras

01:34:31   or like what looks like four cameras at the moment.

01:34:35   My expectation is this will probably just be

01:34:40   the biggest phone that gets this to start with

01:34:44   just because it will be easier.

01:34:46   - Yeah, there's that rumor that,

01:34:48   or the report that Mark Gurman has talked about

01:34:51   that it's the Pro Ultra, right?

01:34:53   Or the Ultra, Phone Ultra, just straight up Ultra.

01:34:56   And that might be exactly where it goes.

01:34:58   Somebody in the chat room just pointed out

01:35:00   to the Huawei, a little cutaway that they did

01:35:02   where it's sort of like camera, camera,

01:35:04   and then lens to periscope that turns at 90 degrees

01:35:08   and then the sensors on the inside.

01:35:10   So there you go, that's the idea.

01:35:12   So there'll be one that's got the super mega powerful,

01:35:15   awesome periscoping, which the value in the periscope again,

01:35:19   is just the more focal length, more optical,

01:35:23   like having a very, very, very thin camera

01:35:27   eliminates a lot of possibilities.

01:35:29   you need to have more length for the light to travel.

01:35:33   So it's an interesting idea,

01:35:37   but to answer a Nougat machine's question,

01:35:39   yeah, I think of course it's gonna seem crude

01:35:44   five years afterward, right?

01:35:46   But I have hope that these periscope lenses

01:35:50   lead to optics that we haven't seen before in smartphones

01:35:53   until the advent of periscope lenses.

01:35:55   And that if Apple does this,

01:35:57   that they're gonna do it right

01:35:58   and they're gonna have a good story to tell

01:36:00   and great image samples and that'll make it worth it.

01:36:03   'Cause keep in mind, they're gonna have to pay

01:36:05   on the inside of the phone by leaving space for this.

01:36:08   This is gonna be even more space devoted to the camera.

01:36:11   - It's gotta be good if they're gonna take up that space,

01:36:14   right, the space that could be given

01:36:15   to a bunch of different types of things.

01:36:17   I mean, I think we said it,

01:36:18   but this might be part of the reason

01:36:20   why they removed the SIM card.

01:36:22   - Sure, I mean, every little bit helps

01:36:25   and why they might introduce it

01:36:27   in something like an ultra phone that's the biggest one.

01:36:29   I like to think that in the future,

01:36:31   every smartphone will be almost entirely

01:36:33   just bouncing around light inside for camera purposes

01:36:36   and just a little tiny bit.

01:36:38   - The batteries are in zigzag shapes

01:36:40   so they can pass the light between the middle.

01:36:42   - Yeah, they're the walls of the little filter bouncing

01:36:47   light thingy that is going on there.

01:36:49   But I can't wait to see it.

01:36:50   Like, I know our excitement about the 48 megapixel camera

01:36:54   in the iPhone 14 Pro was very much like,

01:36:57   let's see what Apple does with this.

01:36:59   Cause Apple has, you know, cares about photography

01:37:01   and has its takes on like what it should be.

01:37:04   And for something like this, again,

01:37:05   what's that story going to be?

01:37:07   And what design decisions did they make

01:37:09   that finally led to them saying,

01:37:11   now is the time we're going to do this with this camera.

01:37:13   That's going to be really interesting.

01:37:15   If that happens next year, that'll be fun to watch.

01:37:19   - Yeah. Follow up on camera, by the way,

01:37:21   like I went out this weekend, I took some pictures

01:37:24   and I used Halide to take some of the raw

01:37:26   and do some editing with them.

01:37:27   And again, like just to confirm

01:37:29   kind of what we were talking about before,

01:37:31   like I'd say again that under the right circumstances

01:37:34   this camera is unbelievable.

01:37:37   - Yep, it really is. - Unbelievably good.

01:37:39   But it's gotta be under the right circumstances.

01:37:40   And the fact that that is the case,

01:37:43   I do understand why they make it somewhat tricky

01:37:47   to get the full 48 megapixel,

01:37:50   'cause you know, it needs certain things,

01:37:53   but really you can get some fantastic shots out of it.

01:37:58   - It's absolutely true.

01:38:00   - If you would like to send in a question for us to answer

01:38:02   on a future episode of Upgrade,

01:38:04   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade

01:38:06   or use question mark #AskUpgrade

01:38:08   in the Relay FM members Discord.

01:38:11   You can get access to that if you sign up for Upgrade Plus.

01:38:13   Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up

01:38:15   and you'll get longer ad-free versions of the show

01:38:18   along with access to tons of benefits

01:38:21   of being a Relay FM member.

01:38:23   Thank you to Hover, Fitbod, and CleanMyMacX for their support of this week's episode,

01:38:28   and thank you for listening.

01:38:29   If you want to find us in the meantime, you can find Jason over at SixColors.com, and

01:38:34   he is @JasonL on Twitter.

01:38:35   I am @imike, I am YKE, Jason and I both host many shows here at Real AFM, and Jason also

01:38:41   hosts a bunch of shows over at The Incomparable as well, if you want more of us in your life

01:38:46   in between your weekly doses of the upgrade program.

01:38:50   We'll be back next time.

01:38:52   Until then, say goodbye, Jsusno.

01:38:55   Goodbye, my Curly.

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