420: I Don't Want Your Jolly Ranchers


00:00:00   [music]

00:00:12   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 420.

00:00:17   Today's show is brought to you by TextExpander, Squarespace, Sourcegraph, and Member4.

00:00:23   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:27   Hi, Myke Hurley. It's great to be here on episode 420, which is 10 times the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.

00:00:34   Shout out, James Thompson.

00:00:35   And that is indeed the only reference to that number.

00:00:39   That's the canonical reference.

00:00:40   Mm-hmm. It's 42 times 10.

00:00:42   I have a #snowtalk question. Comes from Brance. Brance wants to know, "What's your favorite candy?"

00:00:48   Myke will add, "In case you're hungry, you know, you got the munchies, what candy do you want?"

00:00:51   I gotta be nice to Brance, 'cause I was kinda mean to Brance last week.

00:00:54   [laughter]

00:00:56   - In Jason's defense, he apologized in disco

00:01:00   before the episode went out.

00:01:02   - It's true.

00:01:03   And Brant saw that first and then was worried

00:01:05   that I'd said something terrible about him,

00:01:06   which I actually didn't do.

00:01:07   I asked if he was Johnny Ive in disguise.

00:01:10   So what's my favorite candy?

00:01:13   Boring answer is dark chocolate.

00:01:14   Does that count as candy?

00:01:16   - I don't even know if it does.

00:01:17   - If it's like mass produced candy, I don't know,

00:01:20   like Butterfinger maybe?

00:01:24   'cause I love peanut butter in all its forms.

00:01:27   Yeah, sure, let's say that.

00:01:29   - Do you have a favorite Halloween candy?

00:01:31   Does that change or is it just a mini butter finger?

00:01:34   - Well, if you can get a mini butter finger,

00:01:35   then that is absolutely number one on the list.

00:01:37   And then there's probably a ranking list

00:01:39   that goes down from there, like an Almond Joy or a Mounds,

00:01:43   and then you go down to like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.

00:01:46   You know, I like Sweet Tarts.

00:01:51   Sweet Tarts are pretty good.

00:01:53   Yeah, it goes down from there, but basically what I'm saying is, if you're bringing me

00:01:57   your Jolly Ranchers, get out. I don't want your Jolly Ranchers. Jolly Ranchers are at

00:02:03   the bottom, the hard candy, they're at the bottom of the bowl at Halloween, and back

00:02:07   when I worked in an office, they were at the bottom of the office candy bowl. You could

00:02:12   tell they'd fill the bowl, and then two days later the bowl was empty except for the Jolly

00:02:17   Ranchers at the bottom, because nobody likes them and who cares.

00:02:20   - I don't mind them.

00:02:21   I know this is a big thing on Rocket,

00:02:22   but do you have a stance on candy corn

00:02:24   when we're talking about Halloween candy?

00:02:25   - Candy corn.

00:02:26   It's neither candy nor corn, discuss.

00:02:29   No, it's, I think candy corns are fine.

00:02:32   And yes, I mean, you undercut me there

00:02:34   by saying that you actually like Jolly Ranchers.

00:02:36   They're fine, I'm just saying

00:02:37   that I have no enthusiasm for them at all.

00:02:39   But yeah, I think candy corns are okay.

00:02:41   They're waxy and a little bit weird,

00:02:43   but you know, it's the spirit of the season.

00:02:45   - Yep, it's its own thing.

00:02:48   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer

00:02:51   in a future episode of Upgrade,

00:02:52   just send out a tweet with the hashtag SnowTalk

00:02:55   or use question mark SnowTalk

00:02:56   in the relay FM members discord.

00:02:58   As always, if you love Upgrade and want more of it,

00:03:02   you should subscribe to Upgrade Plus.

00:03:04   You'll get no ads and bonus content every single week.

00:03:07   Go to getupgradeplus.com,

00:03:09   just $5 a month or $50 a year.

00:03:11   Thank you to your support, for your support

00:03:13   and to your support if you do it.

00:03:16   Thanks to your support specifically.

00:03:17   And if you're somehow involved in the support,

00:03:19   we appreciate it.

00:03:20   We just did merch recently.

00:03:24   We did Summer of Fun tea.

00:03:25   I actually got mine. - I got mine.

00:03:26   - I got mine like two days ago

00:03:28   and I'm wearing the blue one today.

00:03:30   Very nice.

00:03:31   - I went to the University of Oregon a few days ago

00:03:35   for the new student orientation

00:03:37   'cause my son is going there.

00:03:38   And yes, my daughter goes there too.

00:03:41   They're both ducks now.

00:03:42   And their colors are green and yellow.

00:03:45   And that Summer of Fun with the yellow on the green,

00:03:48   - It's perfect. - It's good.

00:03:49   I wore it on campus, it was great.

00:03:52   I felt spirited and also upgrade related

00:03:55   and that was a perfect feeling.

00:03:57   - You have a paddling of ducks.

00:04:00   - I do have ducks, there's a flock.

00:04:01   It's a flock of ducks now that I have.

00:04:04   So, you know, attack the quack, the, I don't know.

00:04:07   There's, it's all duck puns by the way,

00:04:09   at the University of Oregon.

00:04:10   They really lean into it. - Oh, I have no doubt.

00:04:12   the orientation is called intro-duck-tion.

00:04:17   - Oh, that's a bad one.

00:04:18   Is that, that's not a good one.

00:04:21   - And you know, a few years ago, we were talking about it

00:04:24   and I had forgotten what they called it.

00:04:25   And I was like, what was the bad pun?

00:04:27   What was the bad pun?

00:04:28   And I came up with inductra-nation,

00:04:30   which I think is a way better name for it,

00:04:32   but that's not what it is, it's introduction.

00:04:34   - To be fair though, I say that's bad.

00:04:36   That's 100% the pun I would come up with, right?

00:04:39   I know that.

00:04:39   - Yeah, yeah.

00:04:40   Yeah, anyway, when they move in, there's a "unpack the quack" is what they call it.

00:04:45   I'm serious. You cannot escape the duck puns in Oregon.

00:04:49   Well, I guess, you know what you're getting yourself into before you really settle in, right?

00:04:55   Yeah, oh yeah.

00:04:56   Before you make a nest.

00:04:58   That's right. And they have a mascot who's a duck and he was at the thing.

00:05:01   He appeared at the thing to get them all hyped up.

00:05:04   Uh, yeah, it's a thing. You just gotta embrace it when you go there.

00:05:07   So anyway, the Summer of Fun t-shirt was really nice

00:05:11   and I'm very happy to have gotten them.

00:05:13   So yeah, awesome.

00:05:15   But they're gone.

00:05:16   - But they're gone. - You can't get them.

00:05:17   - Can't get them.

00:05:17   - So there's no upgrade merch anymore.

00:05:19   - Incorrect.

00:05:20   Incorrect.

00:05:21   There is now, we are introducing

00:05:24   the permanent upgrade merch store.

00:05:27   - Okay.

00:05:31   - There's a reason for this.

00:05:31   So we've been at Relay FM,

00:05:33   we spoke about it a couple of weeks ago,

00:05:34   we've been experimenting with some of Cotton Bureau's

00:05:36   on-demand printing.

00:05:37   So the Summer of Fun shirts, they're campaign printing.

00:05:39   The printing process is slightly different.

00:05:41   It's like a thicker screen print,

00:05:43   which for some designs can be better.

00:05:45   Like for the Summer of Fun,

00:05:46   you really want the yellow to be very strong

00:05:48   in the design, right?

00:05:50   So we do them for a couple of weeks and let them go.

00:05:53   And plus some stuff is like limited.

00:05:55   I have wanted to do a draft shirt for ages

00:05:59   because I love the draft logo that Simon made for us

00:06:03   and we still use it.

00:06:04   we just adapt it with what the draft is each time.

00:06:07   And I love it.

00:06:08   I've wanted it for a long time.

00:06:10   But the problem with the draft is,

00:06:12   you never really,

00:06:13   one does not know when the draft is coming

00:06:15   until it's too late.

00:06:17   And so if we knew the draft,

00:06:19   we know the draft's here,

00:06:20   we can't then put up the store

00:06:22   because then by the time the campaign has ended

00:06:25   and then you was mailed the draft t-shirt,

00:06:28   I mean, you'd be in draft desert again, right?

00:06:31   Like waiting for the next one.

00:06:32   And honestly, sometimes if you did it in September,

00:06:34   we could end up like getting to the next draft again

00:06:39   before this draft's even shipped.

00:06:41   So we're now gonna be doing a few designs

00:06:45   on the print on demand that the content bureau does.

00:06:49   So whenever you want to, upgrade listener,

00:06:52   you can just go and buy an upgrade draft T-shirt

00:06:55   or the two versions of an upgrade logo shirt,

00:06:57   upgrade max and upgrade mini.

00:06:59   Do you like the naming Jason?

00:07:02   - I do, and the upgrade mini gives everybody out there

00:07:05   who likes shirt pocket logo designs

00:07:09   instead of centered big logo designs

00:07:12   an upgrade option for the very first time,

00:07:15   'cause I don't love the shirt pocket logo design.

00:07:17   - The Max is the Jason shirt, the mini is the Myke shirt.

00:07:20   That's what happened here.

00:07:21   I wanted this 'cause I like the small designs

00:07:24   as well as the big, I like the big designs too,

00:07:26   but I like to diversity my designs.

00:07:29   So they're in a bunch of colors, both of them,

00:07:31   so you can get some cool colors.

00:07:33   These will always be here.

00:07:34   There's no reason why they can't be.

00:07:36   And the way that this works, you order it

00:07:37   and then a couple of days later it gets shipped out.

00:07:39   It's great.

00:07:40   And also there's hoodies and all kinds of stuff.

00:07:43   What I will say about the upgrade mini shirt

00:07:46   is that they do something that you don't see very often

00:07:48   with Cotton Bureau, is a zip up hoodie on demand.

00:07:51   Because the artwork's not in the middle,

00:07:53   you can do a zip up hoodie.

00:07:55   So you can get that.

00:07:57   So this is a cheaper version of an upgrade hoodie

00:08:00   and the big embroidered upgrade hoodie that we do.

00:08:03   - Oh yeah, you can go up, you can under type,

00:08:05   you can choose sweatshirt.

00:08:07   - Uh-huh, but all of these.

00:08:08   So you could get sweatshirts instead of t-shirts.

00:08:11   - And it's not gonna be the embroidered hoodie

00:08:13   that we offer normally.

00:08:14   - Correct.

00:08:15   - But it's more affordable

00:08:16   and you can get it whenever you like.

00:08:18   - Yeah, I bought the t-shirt.

00:08:20   At some point, I'm gonna definitely get a sweatshirt

00:08:23   of the upgrade draft logo,

00:08:25   'cause I think that will look really good.

00:08:26   - And it's still,

00:08:28   you feeling like the summer of fun, you can get a tank top.

00:08:32   - Yeah, but not with the summer of fun on it.

00:08:34   - No, but the tank top implies summer and fun.

00:08:37   - It most definitely does.

00:08:41   - Yeah, you can get an upgrade draft tank top

00:08:43   in Royal Blue Tri-Blend and just go to town.

00:08:46   - I really appreciate the people

00:08:48   that buy summer of fun tank tops.

00:08:51   Like we've had a couple of upgradey

00:08:52   and send us pictures of them in their tank tops and like.

00:08:55   - It's amazing.

00:08:56   There's even a onesie for a baby.

00:08:57   You can get your baby into the upgrade draft immediately.

00:09:00   Although I think more fitting would be a onesie

00:09:02   with the upgrade max logo,

00:09:04   because what is a baby but an upgrade?

00:09:07   - Very true.

00:09:09   When me and Steven,

00:09:10   we do the backstage membership show, right?

00:09:13   We offered a membership bounty for the first member

00:09:17   to send us a photo of their baby and a Relay FM onesie.

00:09:21   And we got it within like a week or two

00:09:23   and we gave that person a free membership

00:09:25   to show their choice.

00:09:26   - Amazing.

00:09:27   'cause we just thought it was really cool.

00:09:29   So you can go get onesies.

00:09:31   Awesome. Okay.

00:09:32   So this is all available, upgradeyourwardrobe.com

00:09:35   whenever you want it.

00:09:36   All right, Jason, this is awards season.

00:09:39   I mean, it's all,

00:09:41   I mean, the Oscars are in March

00:09:43   and the Emmys are in September.

00:09:46   So that's coming, I guess.

00:09:47   It's like, there's some, it's always awards season, Myke.

00:09:49   Always.

00:09:51   But the Hollywood Critics Association TV Awards

00:09:55   were last night.

00:09:56   Right, right.

00:09:57   So this is the TV critics basically vote on their favorites.

00:10:01   So in some ways, if you're like,

00:10:03   oh, it's all just a popularity contest.

00:10:04   It's like, well, here is the critical acclaim award,

00:10:07   essentially where the TV critics all get together

00:10:09   and hand out awards.

00:10:11   - Severance won five awards, the most of any show,

00:10:15   'cause they split these into broadcast cable and streaming.

00:10:19   There's like three sets of awards, which I didn't know

00:10:21   until I was looking into this today.

00:10:24   but Severance won the most of any of these.

00:10:27   - Oh, I need to,

00:10:28   this is the Hollywood Critics Association,

00:10:30   which is different from the TV Critics Association,

00:10:32   which is yet another Critics Association award.

00:10:34   What we're saying is Hollywood is really good

00:10:37   at giving itself awards.

00:10:39   That's what I'm saying.

00:10:40   - Well, of course.

00:10:41   I mean, why wouldn't you, you know?

00:10:43   - These are the Hollywood, are they critics of Hollywood?

00:10:45   Probably not.

00:10:46   Let's be honest.

00:10:47   They're probably not critics of Hollywood,

00:10:49   but they love Apple.

00:10:51   - When I was in LA last time,

00:10:53   I walked past the building,

00:10:55   the Hollywood Critics Association buildings,

00:10:57   like just a little house somewhere.

00:10:58   Yeah, and I was like, "Oh, I know them.

00:10:59   "We talk about them.

00:11:00   "They give out the awards to Apple."

00:11:02   Anyway, Severance won five.

00:11:04   - Give them a rainbow Apple decal or something

00:11:06   for them to put on the front door.

00:11:07   - I'll mock on the rule next time.

00:11:08   Ted Lasso won two.

00:11:10   - Yeah.

00:11:11   - So still picking up the awards,

00:11:12   but I think this is an interesting indication.

00:11:14   Severance might do really well this year.

00:11:16   - Yeah, well, and this,

00:11:17   they won best comedy and drama for streaming series.

00:11:19   So they got the big awards, which is quite a thing.

00:11:23   So yeah, yeah, Tim Cook loved it.

00:11:26   Tim Cook tweeted about it.

00:11:27   - Of course he did.

00:11:28   - I thought that was interesting

00:11:29   where they have the Tim Cook tweet

00:11:31   where he has to figure out how to refer to severance, right?

00:11:35   So it's like, I'm proud of the Richmond footballers

00:11:37   and Lumen's macro data refiners and their outies.

00:11:42   Yeah, yeah.

00:11:44   Don't look too close.

00:11:47   It's kind of dark.

00:11:48   - We're proud of it though.

00:11:50   - We're proud of them.

00:11:51   It's definitely not like our office in any way, alright?

00:11:55   Leave us a line.

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00:13:43   - It's time for a rumor roundup, Jason Snow.

00:13:47   - Oh, okay.

00:13:48   - So Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that the iPhone 14 Pro

00:13:52   and Pro Max are likely to be more expensive this year.

00:13:57   So the, I was gonna say the Kuo.

00:14:01   Kuo did not state what he believes the new prices will be,

00:14:06   but did say that he estimates the average selling price

00:14:09   for the iPhone 14 lineup as a whole

00:14:12   to be around 15% higher than the iPhone 13.

00:14:15   Now what this does not mean

00:14:17   is that there will be a 15% increase necessarily

00:14:21   to the iPhone 14 lineup.

00:14:23   It could be, it could be 10%, it could be 20%.

00:14:27   But what Kuo is saying is that the mixture

00:14:29   of all of the phones sold when put together

00:14:32   will be higher than the iPhone 13 line, right?

00:14:36   - Yeah, yeah.

00:14:38   - Now what that could mean

00:14:40   is that Ming-Chi Kuo is expecting

00:14:43   that there will be more of the more expensive

00:14:47   iPhone 14 phones sold than the iPhone.

00:14:51   - They call favorable mix, I think is how they refer

00:14:54   to that on the analyst call.

00:14:55   - Tough compare. - Favorable mix.

00:14:56   - Tough compare.

00:14:57   - No, no, no, it's a favorable mix, Myke.

00:14:59   - Good compare? - It's not a tough compare.

00:15:00   It's a good compare.

00:15:01   It's a favorable mix. - Good compare.

00:15:03   So basically there could be a bunch of things here.

00:15:05   Could be a little bit more expensive

00:15:07   and also they're expecting to sell

00:15:09   maybe more of the Pro phones,

00:15:10   which I actually would expect considering

00:15:13   that the pro phones are expected to be making

00:15:16   the leaps this year where the regular phones might not be.

00:15:19   So for just consistency sake,

00:15:22   the pro phones should be getting always on display,

00:15:25   removing the notch and replacing it with the cutouts,

00:15:27   48 megapixel camera and an A16 processor,

00:15:30   which rumors are suggesting the iPhone 14 and 14 Max

00:15:35   wouldn't get any of these features.

00:15:37   - Yeah, I ran, so I ran some numbers.

00:15:39   - Oh yes, love it.

00:15:41   - I put in the existing phone line and their prices

00:15:46   and what I, you know, a vague guess

00:15:48   about how they sell percentage wise.

00:15:50   And then I copied that and I changed it.

00:15:54   And what I did was I just did removing the mini

00:15:58   and replacing it with a max that's priced $100

00:16:01   more than the 14 would be or the 13

00:16:04   and changed the mix a little bit

00:16:07   so that there were more Max's sold.

00:16:11   And that came out of maybe the,

00:16:14   not only the mini, which is gone,

00:16:16   but also out of the regular model.

00:16:19   And I can't get, I mean, that was my initial thought was,

00:16:24   they must be figuring that the new mix will push them up

00:16:27   because it would, if the new phone

00:16:29   that's the bigger low-end phone is $100 more,

00:16:31   that's gonna increase their average value.

00:16:34   And the answer is yes, it will.

00:16:36   it's not gonna increase it by 15%.

00:16:38   15% means everything's going up 100, 10 to 15%,

00:16:41   everything's going up $100,

00:16:43   and there's a change in mix that's favorable to Apple.

00:16:47   You're right, it may also be

00:16:49   that when they're not doing a new processor

00:16:52   in the low-end models, that the low-end models will lag

00:16:55   and the high-end models will be even more of it.

00:16:58   But my initial reaction was, oh, this must be about mix,

00:17:02   but 15% or even 10%, it's too much.

00:17:05   It's a very large number.

00:17:07   And if you really look at it,

00:17:09   the thing that makes the most sense is

00:17:11   what was 799 becomes 899.

00:17:14   What was 999 becomes 1099.

00:17:17   And that is just the given what's going on

00:17:20   with the strength of the dollar,

00:17:21   given what's going on with inflation,

00:17:24   like it would not surprise me at all

00:17:28   if Apple just lifted every iPhone by a hundred dollars.

00:17:31   And kept the old ones on sale, right?

00:17:34   - Of course, of course.

00:17:36   - Okay, so what we're probably looking at here

00:17:39   is like some mixture of all of it,

00:17:40   but as you're saying, no matter,

00:17:42   like as in like it could be the mix,

00:17:44   it could be the fact that there's a max, not a mini,

00:17:46   so that can be more expensive,

00:17:48   but even, but you still have to most likely increase prices

00:17:53   to get to a 15% increase, if quo is correct.

00:17:57   - If quo is correct, that's what I'm saying,

00:17:59   is that you're looking at a scenario

00:18:00   where you have an iPhone 14 at 799,

00:18:04   an iPhone 14 Max, no, an iPhone 14 at 899

00:18:07   and a 14 Max at 999, 14 Pro at 1099

00:18:12   and 14 Pro Max at 1199.

00:18:16   And there are some rumors about specs improving.

00:18:20   So it might be one of those things where you're like,

00:18:22   well, it doesn't sound like Apple to just raise every price.

00:18:25   It's like, yeah, but they might start the storage higher

00:18:28   than they did before and say, oh, but look,

00:18:30   it's not really that big of a change

00:18:32   if you compare the storage to what it was before,

00:18:35   we just eliminated the lower storage tier.

00:18:38   You know, there are ways to massage that price increase

00:18:41   of the base model.

00:18:43   But we talk a lot here about how there's marketing

00:18:47   and buying psychology that goes on

00:18:48   when Apple positions its products.

00:18:50   And one of the ways it does that

00:18:51   is it creates that low-end price

00:18:53   so that you can quote a number,

00:18:55   like you can get in the door for this price.

00:18:56   But then you look at that model,

00:18:58   whether it's a MacBook Air or an iPhone or an iPad,

00:19:01   and you go, "Yeah, but I don't want that one.

00:19:03   "I want the one that's even more expensive."

00:19:04   So that low price got you in the door,

00:19:06   but it's not the price you're gonna pay.

00:19:08   So there are ways for them to do that with this,

00:19:09   but when Qo's saying, like,

00:19:12   "Bottom line, it's gonna be 15% more

00:19:15   "in average selling price,"

00:19:18   I think the only way you do that is by raising the prices.

00:19:22   - You mentioned about the storage thing.

00:19:25   So there seems to be a bit of back and forth

00:19:27   from some analysts as to whether

00:19:28   they're going to do this or not.

00:19:30   I think this might be a bit of conjecture really

00:19:32   more than any particular reporting,

00:19:35   but it seems like that some people are suggesting

00:19:38   that we could see an increase in the starting storage

00:19:42   of at least the pro funds.

00:19:44   - Yeah, I don't think the storage is,

00:19:48   I guess it's profit, but it's not that expensive for Apple

00:19:53   to vary the storage, I feel like.

00:19:55   I feel like the storage is a great place for them

00:19:58   to force people to pay more for more

00:20:00   because it's the only time you can do it is right then.

00:20:03   But I think that's a pretty easy way for Apple

00:20:07   to raise the base price, throw in something

00:20:11   so they can say, "Ah, but you get more,"

00:20:13   without it actually hurting their profit margin

00:20:16   very much at all.

00:20:17   - Yeah, I expect that they still do what they used to do,

00:20:21   which is buy just obscene amounts of storage at once.

00:20:24   - Yeah, sure. - Right?

00:20:25   Like this was that thing about,

00:20:27   there was that particular,

00:20:29   like that drive, that small drive, right, wasn't SSD,

00:20:32   it was a small drive for the iPod,

00:20:35   and they just bought basically all of it.

00:20:37   And then they used to do this for NAND flash as well, right?

00:20:39   Like there was always reports back in the day that like,

00:20:41   oh well, Apple bought all of what was available

00:20:44   for the iPod Nano, and you just can't get it.

00:20:48   And I expect that, obviously they're not doing that anymore

00:20:50   because everyone uses this stuff now,

00:20:52   but you've got to assume that

00:20:54   they just buy obscene amounts of storage

00:20:57   and just have it around.

00:20:58   So like that, the price changes there are not gonna be

00:21:02   as huge as they might be if you were just going in

00:21:04   and buying one yourself.

00:21:06   - And keep in mind, we're talking about 128.

00:21:07   128 is not really a great number for storage on a phone.

00:21:10   It's not great.

00:21:12   So they could lift those, especially on the pro models,

00:21:14   they could lift those up to 256 as the base

00:21:17   and basically say it's the same price.

00:21:20   It's literally, 'cause right now that $100 shift

00:21:23   is just going up to 256.

00:21:25   So they could eliminate the 128,

00:21:29   keep it at 256 at a higher tier for even more money

00:21:33   and say, yes, the base price is higher,

00:21:38   but if you compare it to the existing models,

00:21:41   it's the same price, right?

00:21:42   Like that would allow them to do that.

00:21:44   But it means that you've eliminated all the 799 phones

00:21:48   because they're all eight.

00:21:49   All of those now are going to go up to 899.

00:21:52   You can't buy in for less than $899

00:21:55   and you just say $256 is the new base.

00:21:58   They definitely could do that

00:21:59   on some or all of these phones.

00:22:01   Again, conjecture, but it's definitely something

00:22:03   they could do.

00:22:04   - I wonder if this will lead to all those like

00:22:06   trade-in, trade-in, trade-in things.

00:22:08   Could film the last time that they did that.

00:22:10   Do you remember when they raised the phone prices

00:22:12   and people seemed to be a bit cool on it?

00:22:14   So then they just like blitzed all of the retail stores

00:22:17   with trade-in signs?

00:22:18   - Trade-ins and discounts and things like that, sure.

00:22:20   Well, keep in mind, this is also a really weird time

00:22:22   because it's the third year of the same model, right?

00:22:25   And so Apple, this is where Apple makes more of an effort.

00:22:28   Remember when Apple didn't make any effort at all

00:22:30   to sell iPhones, they just happened?

00:22:31   Well, now they make more of an effort

00:22:33   and we're going to revisit that third year of the cycle

00:22:36   where Apple has to make a greater effort to move iPhones.

00:22:40   But not to get ahead of ourselves here,

00:22:42   but like the reports are that they are making

00:22:45   as many phones as they would normally make.

00:22:47   They're not, like some of their competitors

00:22:49   are cutting manufacturing orders

00:22:52   'cause they see a slowdown here

00:22:54   and Apple doesn't seem to see that.

00:22:55   So Apple seems confident that they're gonna be able

00:22:57   to sell a whole bunch of iPhones anyway.

00:23:00   They may have to work harder at it.

00:23:02   - Yeah, Debbie Wuh at Bloomberg says

00:23:03   that Apple were expecting demand to still be strong,

00:23:06   ordering at least 90 million iPhone units,

00:23:08   which is on par with the iPhone 13 line.

00:23:11   I just wanted to come back to what you said

00:23:11   about the third year thing.

00:23:13   I think it's an asterisk, like, yes,

00:23:16   The overall design of the phone is going to be the same

00:23:20   as the 13 and the same as the 12.

00:23:23   But what we're gonna get this time is big regular phone,

00:23:28   that's new, and the pro phones,

00:23:32   they're gonna look visibly different,

00:23:33   especially at the screen, right?

00:23:35   - Look, when I say I assume the upgrade ends

00:23:38   are well versed in all of this,

00:23:39   'cause we talk about it here a lot,

00:23:41   third year doesn't mean nothing's changed.

00:23:44   There's always, in fact, Apple has to go out of its way

00:23:46   every year where there's not a visual change

00:23:48   to make some reason why you might upgrade.

00:23:51   And people are on a multi-year cycle for their phones.

00:23:54   So they're probably upgrading from the old look anyway,

00:23:57   although in year three, they may be coming

00:23:59   from the first year of the existing look.

00:24:03   The Apple always, I mean, you could make an argument

00:24:06   that many of the iPhone's greatest tech leaps happen

00:24:09   in the boring year, right?

00:24:11   Because they're changing it on the inside,

00:24:14   but not changing it on the outside.

00:24:16   And yeah, I mean, there are absolutely things

00:24:18   to be interested about in the 14.

00:24:21   It's just that in the larger market,

00:24:24   if you look at phone sales,

00:24:26   the big bump comes when they change the outside

00:24:30   and then it goes, it kind of flattens off from there.

00:24:33   And it's that year.

00:24:34   So I'm not saying that they won't sell phones.

00:24:37   They obviously think they will.

00:24:39   I'm just saying they have to work harder at it.

00:24:40   And I would say upgrading the specs

00:24:42   and doing things like making a new model

00:24:44   that's a 14 max and putting in the new camera this year,

00:24:49   that's all part of working harder.

00:24:52   - Good point.

00:24:53   - Yeah.

00:24:53   - Yeah, and as you say, right,

00:24:54   like the chassis being the same,

00:24:56   but changing the screen, right?

00:24:58   It's like that's working harder, right?

00:25:00   Because you're realizing what can I change

00:25:03   without changing the entire thing?

00:25:06   - Right, we're not changing the stainless steel band

00:25:08   and the glass back and all that this time.

00:25:10   We have an idea for next time and oh boy,

00:25:12   Just, we'll get there, but what can we do this time?

00:25:15   And the answer, well, we could change the cutouts

00:25:17   in the screen now and not wait for a year.

00:25:19   And we finally got that new camera system.

00:25:21   We'll put it in this year.

00:25:22   And then next year, it'll be in the new one

00:25:26   that everybody goes, people who are concerned

00:25:29   about the look, I mean, I think there's some truth in this.

00:25:32   People who are concerned about the camera

00:25:34   will rush to buy the 14 Pro.

00:25:35   People who are concerned about the look,

00:25:37   maybe they wait for the 15.

00:25:38   And that's fine, 'cause again, there are different audiences

00:25:42   at different times.

00:25:42   And the goal is just to get Apple to their, you know,

00:25:45   90 million iPhones or whatever that they wanna sell

00:25:48   for this cycle.

00:25:49   - I think even if Apple wanted to,

00:25:50   they couldn't sell an iPhone

00:25:52   to every iPhone customer every year, right?

00:25:55   - Certainly not.

00:25:56   - They can't tailor to that.

00:25:57   They can't even,

00:25:58   there's not even an attempt to try and do that

00:26:00   because they would not be able to do it.

00:26:03   - And they've got the different constituencies.

00:26:04   In fact, I would,

00:26:05   there's probably something written on a whiteboard

00:26:08   somewhere at Apple,

00:26:08   or was written on a whiteboard at Apple

00:26:10   before it was erased in order to protect everybody

00:26:13   from all the secrets getting out.

00:26:15   But there probably is a philosophy somewhere

00:26:18   that is what are the upgrade propositions this year

00:26:23   and over the three-year span?

00:26:25   So you can say sort of like, we wanna make sure, right?

00:26:27   It just makes sense.

00:26:29   First year, the look is gonna sell it.

00:26:31   Second year though, what's gonna sell it?

00:26:33   Third year, what's gonna sell it?

00:26:34   Because you want selling points every year.

00:26:36   Otherwise, why are you even doing this, right?

00:26:38   Like you gotta, like what?

00:26:40   No new iPhones this year, everybody.

00:26:42   We're nothing interesting, nothing new here,

00:26:44   just some colors.

00:26:46   They're not gonna do that.

00:26:47   So they have to plan out what the different things are

00:26:49   and those will appeal to different people.

00:26:51   And then I think also there are some iPhone buyers

00:26:53   that do it based on time,

00:26:54   where it's literally like every two or three years,

00:26:57   they're like, "Oh, I'm gonna get a new iPhone."

00:26:58   And it doesn't, you know,

00:27:00   what they get is the accumulated features

00:27:02   of the last two or three or four years.

00:27:04   And that works for them too.

00:27:06   So I think Apple probably knows all of those constituencies

00:27:09   And it's also good for Apple because yeah,

00:27:12   they can't do a brand new entirely different phone

00:27:15   every year.

00:27:16   So you upgrade the camera system this year,

00:27:18   you change the look this year,

00:27:19   you upgrade some new WYSI sensor or processor

00:27:22   or something this year,

00:27:23   and you make it all kind of progress.

00:27:26   - In his Power On newsletter,

00:27:28   Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is looking

00:27:32   to triple the revenue that it makes from ads.

00:27:36   So there have apparently been some restructuring at Apple

00:27:40   with the head of their ad business,

00:27:42   someone named Todd Terese,

00:27:45   now reporting directly to EdiQ.

00:27:47   Terese is now apparently looking to increase the revenue

00:27:50   that their Apple makes from ads

00:27:52   from around $4 billion per year to a double digit figure.

00:27:56   It's being reported that triple, right?

00:27:58   You could triple it.

00:27:59   So we've recently seen Apple add the Today tab App Store ads,

00:28:05   It was previously just search and now they're adding what looks like sponsored content kind

00:28:11   of stuff into the whole mix.

00:28:17   You could create some graphic and put it there and make it look like it's part of an ad,

00:28:26   like a part of the content in the apps.

00:28:27   It's actually an ad I should say.

00:28:30   This is like more inventory, more placements.

00:28:32   Let's keep putting the ads everywhere that we possibly can.

00:28:36   Mark Gurman believes that maps could be a place to add more ad inventory to in the future.

00:28:42   And there's been some internal exploration to this as well as more of their digital storefronts

00:28:46   like books, podcasts, et cetera.

00:28:50   When I saw this report, I immediately thought that this seems like somebody at Apple disagrees

00:28:57   with the approach and told Mark Gurman about it.

00:29:00   Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's always the question of why did something leak and what was the motivator

00:29:05   in having it leak. And that is definitely a possibility, if somebody is like not happy

00:29:12   with this and wants to call it out so that people will talk about it.

00:29:16   It's the naming of it to me. And like just more details in the story of like this figure,

00:29:23   Todd Toreci, like being really into it and like wanting to push it and having lots of

00:29:27   meetings because it kind of feels to me like the way I look at it is on the

00:29:32   surface do I believe this is something they're gonna do yes but this also

00:29:37   sounds like an executive that wants to be really important right so maybe Todd

00:29:42   DeRaisse is walking around saying I want a triple ad revenue and like that's just

00:29:45   their thing that they want to do you know yeah you could you could see how

00:29:50   somebody might somebody at Apple who doesn't like this approach of like we're

00:29:53   gonna try to put ads as many places as we can, who thinks that Apple is not an ad company

00:29:59   and that it junks up the customer experience. And I would say most of Apple is probably

00:30:05   at least inclined to believe that. The people who sweat on the hardware and the software

00:30:11   and want, you know, "We're Apple. We make this great user experience." And then there's

00:30:18   Here's the group that they talk about on the calls with Wall Street where they're like,

00:30:24   you know, we're growing services and we're growing ad revenue and isn't it good that

00:30:27   we're making more money? And it's not hard to imagine that somebody discovers that the

00:30:35   iad guy has been given more direct, you know, who was walled off for a while, is now reporting

00:30:43   directly to Eddie. And it's like, oh boy, that guy, right? And I don't know anything

00:30:47   about this guy. He might be a nice guy or not, but he's the ad guy regardless. And

00:30:53   how somebody else might look at that and say, "This is not what Apple should be doing."

00:30:57   And I mean, my feelings on this are pretty clear, which is I think that the – I'm

00:31:04   not allergic to ads. I'm really not. I think ads have their place. However, Apple jamming

00:31:12   ads into its products that we're already paying for feels, I mean, I would be more, I mean,

00:31:25   this is a hard one. I would be more understanding of it if I felt like, well, this is how Apple

00:31:31   needs to do business to survive. And maybe that's unfair. Maybe the answer should always

00:31:36   be, I'm sure Wall Street would tell you, the answer should always be, if you can make money,

00:31:40   make money. If you can make more money, make more money. That's always the answer. I would

00:31:45   argue, and I used to argue this as part of my job, actually, that you degrade the product

00:31:53   when you insert ads everywhere, because while ads are not fundamentally bad, ad placements

00:31:59   tend to get out of hand, and they get out of hand quickly to the detriment of the user.

00:32:05   And because of that, you have to ask the big picture questions of, do we turn away revenue

00:32:14   because it makes our product worse?

00:32:17   Or do we not care that it makes our product worse?

00:32:20   And when I look at a lot of the stuff that Apple's already doing, I think it makes their

00:32:23   product worse.

00:32:24   I think the App Store, they talk about the App Store ads being like, oh, well, it helps

00:32:30   people find stuff.

00:32:31   Like, okay, but you got ads up at the top of search

00:32:35   for things that are not what people are searching for.

00:32:38   And then below you've got the thing

00:32:40   people are actually searching for.

00:32:42   So what you're doing is you're allowing people

00:32:43   to eclipse the right answer with their answer

00:32:47   based on payment.

00:32:48   And since these are all app developers,

00:32:50   what you're also having them do is bid against each other

00:32:54   for the right to give back the money they earned from Apple

00:32:57   to Apple in order to get better placement

00:33:01   to make more money, which they will then presumably

00:33:03   give back to Apple to do more placement.

00:33:06   I don't think it is helpful,

00:33:08   more helpful than having a good search algorithm.

00:33:11   Certainly not the way that it's implemented.

00:33:13   - It's like another tax on top of the one

00:33:16   they're already paying.

00:33:18   - Right, no, it is.

00:33:19   And I felt that for a while that the App Store ads

00:33:22   is just like, if you're, people are mad about the 30%.

00:33:27   How about this?

00:33:28   How about that if you don't take an ad out

00:33:30   for the name of your product,

00:33:31   your competitor will be there

00:33:32   when people search for your product name.

00:33:33   It's like, what a racket is what I'll say.

00:33:36   What a racket to say, well, you know,

00:33:39   if they search for overcast and they find Spotify,

00:33:42   you could pay us more money, Marco,

00:33:44   and then they wouldn't find Spotify.

00:33:46   It's like, it's just a, anyway,

00:33:49   and again, I'm not allergic to ads.

00:33:51   There are places where ads are probably fine.

00:33:55   The idea that if you had a maps search

00:34:00   and somebody paid to have their item also appear

00:34:02   on the search or something like that.

00:34:04   I don't love it, but like, you know,

00:34:07   I can see the argument for it.

00:34:09   But as the person who's always the editorial person

00:34:13   jousting with the salespeople at a website,

00:34:16   which was the product, right?

00:34:18   I think a lot of people who are involved in ad sales

00:34:23   make terrible decisions based on small amounts of revenue

00:34:28   because they believe that all new revenue is good

00:34:31   and it never has deleterious effects.

00:34:34   And it's not true, you junk up your product.

00:34:36   And I think the app store is junked up.

00:34:38   I think that if they're gonna put apps in maps,

00:34:41   maybe it'll be tasteful, but it probably won't be.

00:34:43   They put them in the bookstore or in Apple podcasts,

00:34:47   are they gonna be good or are they gonna be junky?

00:34:50   And like, it's not very hard to make them crappy,

00:34:54   which is not to say again that all ads are bad.

00:34:57   But it also, I think, is a problem when you've got

00:35:01   this feeling that Apple is like searching around

00:35:03   in the couch cushions for change

00:35:07   when it's one of the richest companies in the world.

00:35:09   And I think that is, I get why they might do that

00:35:12   to satisfy Wall Street, but I think it is

00:35:15   one of the worst traits of modern Apple

00:35:18   is this idea that they need to make more money

00:35:22   even if it means junking up their product

00:35:24   because they make a lot of money on their product.

00:35:27   And one of their selling propositions is that their product

00:35:29   is not full of junk.

00:35:31   This is like, I'm not saying that they would do this,

00:35:34   but this is like putting a crapware on new Macs.

00:35:39   That would increase revenue.

00:35:40   - Right, like charging companies like,

00:35:42   "Hey, Microsoft, give us some money and we'll..."

00:35:45   Yeah. - Yeah.

00:35:46   I don't wanna give Todd Toreci any ideas,

00:35:47   but like, I mean, there's certainly incremental revenue

00:35:50   to be made pre-installing trial software

00:35:52   on every Mac that gets sold.

00:35:54   How about pre-installing apps on iPhones too?

00:35:57   I mean, you can take this pretty far

00:36:00   and they haven't yet, which is good,

00:36:03   but like, I think there's maybe an attitude of like,

00:36:05   ah, but it's just ads.

00:36:07   It's just ads, it's fine.

00:36:09   And it's not always fine.

00:36:13   So them ruffling through the couch cushions

00:36:16   for another, you know, $6 billion of ad revenue, you know,

00:36:22   It strikes me that this is some executive,

00:36:25   probably Tim Cook, saying to Eddy Cue,

00:36:27   "More revenue from ads."

00:36:29   But in a tasteful way.

00:36:31   It's like, okay, we'll see.

00:36:35   We'll see about that.

00:36:35   I am very skeptical about all the places

00:36:38   that they're sticking ads.

00:36:39   And the fact that you, in general, for a premium product,

00:36:42   the fact that there are ads you can't escape,

00:36:44   I just don't like it.

00:36:45   I don't like the idea that there are ads you can't escape

00:36:48   because this is a premium product.

00:36:50   And when the ads are getting in the way

00:36:52   of the actual content, ads can be content, right?

00:36:55   But there are a lot of times when ads get in the way

00:36:57   of the content that you're actually looking for.

00:36:59   And that leaves aside the whole other issue,

00:37:01   which is the fact that Apple has cleared out

00:37:03   a lot of third-party ad networks like Facebook

00:37:06   with the app tracking transparency,

00:37:08   but that's not gonna stop them from doing first-party ads,

00:37:11   which are basically all ads that are sold by Apple

00:37:14   and shown on Apple's platforms are allowed

00:37:16   because Apple has defined those as fine,

00:37:21   so that's, which is nice for Apple.

00:37:23   - You know, obviously we're an ad-supported program,

00:37:26   but if the percentage of revenue we made from ads

00:37:29   was the same as what Apple does from ads,

00:37:31   we wouldn't run ads.

00:37:32   You know, like, if there was,

00:37:34   if the upgrade merch store, right,

00:37:36   made us however much money it made,

00:37:38   and then our ads made us, like, whatever percentage,

00:37:40   like 1%, we just wouldn't do the ads anymore, right?

00:37:44   But it doesn't work like that for us.

00:37:46   - It's a difficult balance.

00:37:47   And like I said, again, ads,

00:37:48   I don't think ads are fundamentally bad.

00:37:49   I would also say we also sell a premium version

00:37:53   of the show without ads, right?

00:37:54   But I've always felt like Apple's promise

00:37:57   was that it was the premium version.

00:37:59   Like all Apple products are the premium version

00:38:03   of the product, right?

00:38:04   But to have, and I don't wanna live in a world

00:38:07   where you buy an iPhone for $1,000

00:38:10   and then like Amazon, there's a, for an extra $100,

00:38:14   you can turn off the ads.

00:38:15   I don't wanna live in that world.

00:38:18   But that is what makes me uneasy

00:38:20   is that I'm not sure that this push toward ads

00:38:23   is something that, it's not that it can't be done in a way

00:38:28   that is seen to benefit the user

00:38:30   and be a kind of wholesome thing.

00:38:32   I think there are ways to do it that way.

00:38:34   But if the App Store search is any example,

00:38:37   like again, it feels like a protection racket to me,

00:38:41   and it gets in the way of your actual search results.

00:38:43   And I do not like it.

00:38:44   That's what I'm saying.

00:38:45   If people haven't gotten that approach,

00:38:46   just I wanna be clear here, do not like.

00:38:49   - What I don't like about it

00:38:50   is it just feels hypocritical to me.

00:38:52   Even though it like technically isn't,

00:38:53   it just feels it and I don't like it.

00:38:55   I think Apple's gone to such great lengths

00:38:58   to try and make it seem like online advertising is bad

00:39:01   and like they're just,

00:39:03   everyone's trying to steal your information

00:39:04   and sell it to each other people,

00:39:06   but our advertising is fine.

00:39:07   - And their sales pitch for their advertising

00:39:09   will be we know everything about our users, right?

00:39:11   - Yeah.

00:39:12   - But it's okay 'cause we're Apple and we're the first party.

00:39:14   Gurman says, "Oh, they're probably not gonna bring iAd back."

00:39:17   That's not part of the plan right now.

00:39:19   iAd was Apple's own in-app ad network.

00:39:22   And I was sitting there raising my eyebrow

00:39:24   when I read that on Sunday morning.

00:39:25   Fortunately today, today on Stratechery,

00:39:28   Ben Thompson wrote about it

00:39:29   and said exactly what I was thinking,

00:39:30   which is they'll totally bring back iAd.

00:39:33   They're totally gonna do that

00:39:34   because once they've cleared out all value from in-app ads

00:39:39   because they're from third-party trackers,

00:39:42   Step two is you come in with your first party ad solution

00:39:46   and nobody has a choice but to use Apple's ad solution

00:39:50   because Apple's the only one with the data.

00:39:52   Then again, the report says

00:39:54   that they're not currently planning that.

00:39:56   I would say common sense suggests

00:39:58   that if they're doing all of this,

00:40:00   they are absolutely gonna start selling ads into apps too

00:40:03   because why would they let anybody else make that money

00:40:06   when they can make it themselves?

00:40:07   And I think that's the attitude here.

00:40:09   - I do think the only reason that they wouldn't do it

00:40:12   is if they think that they legally would,

00:40:14   it would be too difficult.

00:40:15   - Well, I do agree if they release that,

00:40:18   it would make the screams from the likes of Facebook

00:40:21   even louder and would probably open them up

00:40:23   to more scrutiny. - As it should go.

00:40:24   - Absolutely. - Right?

00:40:25   (laughing)

00:40:26   - Yeah, well now that we've killed your business,

00:40:28   we're gonna take over your business.

00:40:29   - It's like how many more shoes could drop at that point?

00:40:32   - There's the whole of Mel DeMarco's.

00:40:34   - The whole shoe store.

00:40:35   - Yep, mm-hmm.

00:40:36   The footlocker, the whole footlocker

00:40:38   is happening right there. - It's everywhere.

00:40:40   - Yep.

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00:42:37   I had a note in my little show notes document which said "Jason's HomeKit cameras" and I

00:42:45   don't know what this is in reference to.

00:42:47   So I wanted to ask you, Jason do you have HomeKit cameras?

00:42:51   Umm, errr, technically, yes, but asterisk.

00:43:00   I have cameras that show up in the home app.

00:43:02   They are--

00:43:05   - Homebridge?

00:43:06   - No, it's so there--

00:43:10   - This is great.

00:43:11   (laughing)

00:43:11   - Homekick, yeah, that's right, it's a base of, sorry.

00:43:14   I'm on the advice of my attorney.

00:43:17   I have been told to take the fifth here.

00:43:19   Now I have, so I have Arlo cameras.

00:43:24   - Okay.

00:43:26   which is, are they still part of Netgear?

00:43:31   I think they might've been spun out,

00:43:34   but like it's basically Netgear made them.

00:43:37   And I've had them for a while.

00:43:38   I've actually upgraded them all during that time.

00:43:40   Arlo cameras are wireless and they are their own thing.

00:43:45   So recently they did a software update

00:43:47   that allows them to work with HomeKit,

00:43:50   but it's a weird situation

00:43:52   because they're not HomeKit secure video,

00:43:55   but they do show up in the Home app,

00:43:57   but because of the way they're built,

00:43:59   they don't quite work the way you would expect

00:44:02   a HomeKit camera to work.

00:44:03   'Cause basically they're,

00:44:05   because they're wireless, they basically go to sleep

00:44:12   and they've got motion triggers to wake them up

00:44:14   because they're trying to,

00:44:15   in most cases, trying to conserve battery.

00:44:17   Now I actually have two of them are plugged into power

00:44:20   and two of them are attached to solar panels on my roof,

00:44:24   little tiny solar panels that keep them,

00:44:26   the top up their charge.

00:44:27   So for the most part, they are actually powered,

00:44:31   but the way the whole system works,

00:44:34   they kind of go to sleep and then they wake up.

00:44:36   So when I watch, like I open, just open the home app

00:44:40   and I've got like one that says it's been,

00:44:45   it's the view of 10 seconds ago,

00:44:46   and one's the view of six seconds ago,

00:44:48   and one's the view of now,

00:44:50   but the view of now is not actually the live view.

00:44:53   If I click on it, I get the live view.

00:44:54   So it's iffy, like they're present

00:44:58   and I can theoretically like watch them in on Apple TV

00:45:01   by they have a little camera view,

00:45:03   they're in the home app,

00:45:04   but they're not, they're sort of vaguely homekit.

00:45:08   - That sounds like a homekit camera to me.

00:45:11   It's just they're not homekit secure video, right?

00:45:14   - Well, that's true.

00:45:15   Well, and I think they're refreshing.

00:45:16   I think that they are doing some cheating on the server

00:45:19   'cause there's like a base station.

00:45:20   I think they're doing some cheating

00:45:21   on the base station level to, like I said,

00:45:24   seem like an immediate thumbnail of what's going on outside,

00:45:28   and it's a lie.

00:45:29   Maybe all HomeKit cameras are like that.

00:45:31   - I mean, the cameras that like, you know,

00:45:33   we have a Canary camera,

00:45:34   which I can't believe is still working.

00:45:37   We have-- - None of us can, Myke.

00:45:39   - We have a Ring thing here at the studio.

00:45:41   And like, then none of them like the alive live,

00:45:43   there's always a delay,

00:45:44   'cause it's gonna go up to the server

00:45:45   and then push to you, right?

00:45:47   So it's not like--

00:45:48   - No, but this is the case where like,

00:45:49   I'm looking right now at my side yard,

00:45:51   And there is a view that I don't think,

00:45:56   well, maybe it is live.

00:45:58   When I click on it, yeah, I guess so.

00:46:00   I guess it is.

00:46:01   It's so they're refreshing every so often

00:46:03   with a thumbnail of what's going on out there.

00:46:06   But it's not all the time.

00:46:08   And then if I click it, it brings up the live view.

00:46:10   So it used to be everything was just in the Arlo app,

00:46:14   but now I can see the live views in HomeKit.

00:46:16   If I wanna see the past stuff, I go to the Arlo app

00:46:19   and that's where it's got its past stuff.

00:46:21   I actually, because I have the Arlo base station,

00:46:23   it's got a little drive attached to it.

00:46:24   So I've actually got even more video kind of archive

00:46:27   on there that it just writes to it.

00:46:29   So if I had something particularly interesting

00:46:31   or exciting happen, I could go to the footage

00:46:33   and see if I could find it there.

00:46:36   Yeah, they're fine.

00:46:37   I got them part 'cause I thought it was cool.

00:46:40   And then there was a break-in down the street

00:46:43   and they asked if I had video,

00:46:44   'cause they saw my camera, if I had video

00:46:46   and honestly I'd left that,

00:46:47   I let the battery run down on the old camera

00:46:51   And I had to say, no, I don't actually have any video

00:46:54   that might've caught somebody passing by.

00:46:56   And I realized, okay, well, if I'm gonna have these cameras,

00:46:58   I need to actually keep them powered.

00:46:59   So I got a couple of new cameras

00:47:01   and I got the solar panels

00:47:04   and I plugged two of them in to power directly.

00:47:09   And so now that's what my setup is.

00:47:13   To be honest, the most exciting thing that it shows me

00:47:15   is what cats have been in my backyard.

00:47:18   - But I get to have.

00:47:19   - The cameras, they're wireless, right?

00:47:22   - Cameras are wireless.

00:47:23   - But they work with HomeKit.

00:47:25   - But they work with HomeKit, yeah.

00:47:26   So they're wireless, they talk to a base station

00:47:29   that is the Arlo base station,

00:47:31   but it's basically a Netgear,

00:47:32   it looks a lot like a Netgear Wi-Fi base station,

00:47:34   except it's built for the Arlo cameras.

00:47:37   And like I said, they're meant to be,

00:47:40   because you don't have networking

00:47:44   or even power in some places.

00:47:45   The Arlo infrastructure was always sort of like,

00:47:47   You don't need to have power to a place

00:47:49   where you put your camera.

00:47:51   And I now have two positioned in places

00:47:53   where I do have outlets that can run to them.

00:47:56   But like I said, the other two,

00:47:57   there's no power near them at all.

00:47:59   And so for them, you can either charge the battery

00:48:03   every two months or something, which is what I used to do.

00:48:06   But now with the new cameras and the solar panels,

00:48:11   even in the winter, it does a pretty good job.

00:48:14   Occasionally I get a low battery warning

00:48:16   and I have to like reposition the panel

00:48:19   that's literally just laying on my roof.

00:48:22   But because the-

00:48:24   - So you have the solar too then,

00:48:26   you do have that interest.

00:48:27   - I do, I have two solar panels,

00:48:29   one attached to each of the,

00:48:31   so the unplug cameras recharge themselves with solar now.

00:48:34   I haven't had to recharge them at all.

00:48:36   Even in the dead of winter,

00:48:37   it gets enough sun in order to keep the battery charged.

00:48:44   'Cause it's got a battery in it

00:48:45   that's supposed to go for months and months.

00:48:48   And so generally that's close enough.

00:48:50   And if I had a problem, I would go and charge it

00:48:52   and then bring it back out,

00:48:53   but I actually haven't had to do that.

00:48:55   - That's very cool.

00:48:56   I see 'cause I came across Arlo recently

00:48:59   because I was looking for a HomeKit video doorbell.

00:49:04   - Ah.

00:49:05   - And they make one, but it's the wired one.

00:49:08   And I want a wireless one.

00:49:10   - Yeah.

00:49:11   - And I don't think, please upgrade in,

00:49:13   tell me if you found.

00:49:14   I don't think a wireless video doorbell that works with HomeKit exists.

00:49:19   And I don't know why, but I think it's just, I've only been able to

00:49:25   find wired products that exist.

00:49:27   Cause this is the thing that keeps saying, like, I know that the wireless

00:49:31   cameras with HomeKit is sometimes a newer thing, but also like a, doesn't

00:49:39   necessarily work exactly the way that you would think and or can't get all

00:49:43   of the features, right?

00:49:44   It seems like that something being wired

00:49:47   seems to be pretty important,

00:49:48   or at least it being like a hub or whatever.

00:49:51   But that's cool, I didn't know

00:49:52   that they did the solar panels.

00:49:53   I don't know how well that would work in the UK.

00:49:55   Probably I'm glad. - I think in the UK,

00:49:57   I honestly don't know.

00:49:59   - But if it works for you in the winter, maybe.

00:50:02   At least it worked for me in the summer.

00:50:03   - Maybe, maybe, yeah, for sure, for sure.

00:50:06   And I think, I don't know if I'm even using their panels.

00:50:08   I may be using the Works with Arlo panels

00:50:11   that I got on Amazon, 'cause they're cheaper.

00:50:14   The Arlo solar panel is like 40 pounds.

00:50:16   It's not that wildly expensive.

00:50:18   - And it's small.

00:50:19   They're all, they're very small.

00:50:21   And like they've got a whole mounting thing and all that.

00:50:22   And I'm, because of my roof and the status of my roof

00:50:25   and all that, it was actually easier for me

00:50:26   to just toss it on my roof.

00:50:28   (laughing)

00:50:29   It just lays there.

00:50:30   It just lays there and drinks in the sun.

00:50:31   It's fine.

00:50:32   It's like, it's not going anywhere.

00:50:33   It's not a problem.

00:50:34   - You just come out one day

00:50:35   and there's a bunch of solar panels

00:50:37   just like hanging from cables, you know?

00:50:39   Like little wind chimes. - I guess, except,

00:50:40   I don't know, that would be, you know,

00:50:42   That would be unusual weather to have the solar panels

00:50:44   be disturbed.

00:50:45   I also have an ethernet cable snaking over the top

00:50:47   of my roof.

00:50:48   So my roof is a--

00:50:49   - What was that for again?

00:50:50   I know we were talking about that.

00:50:51   - It's connecting my back of the house

00:50:53   to the front of the house.

00:50:55   - But what is it--

00:50:56   - With ethernet.

00:50:56   - Okay.

00:50:57   - Comes out of here and then goes over the roof

00:50:58   to my back bedroom where there's more stuff

00:51:01   and another Eero, yeah.

00:51:04   - Which is instead of doing some kind of wild thing

00:51:07   in the house, right, which would be really complicated.

00:51:09   - Well, yeah, we don't have an attic

00:51:11   And so really the only way you can wire things

00:51:15   is by punching holes in the walls.

00:51:17   So there is a hole punched in the wall

00:51:19   over in the bedroom for the cable.

00:51:22   I'm going to rewire my house at some point here.

00:51:25   This is really verging on like Casey List territory now,

00:51:28   but I am gonna rewire and do it sort of more properly

00:51:31   and not over the roof and run it along under the eaves,

00:51:36   but I just haven't had a chance to do that yet.

00:51:38   So I've got a giant spool of ethernet cable here.

00:51:41   But yeah, anyway, my roof has got all sorts of stuff on it,

00:51:43   including solar panels.

00:51:44   That's fine, it works great.

00:51:45   - I also wanted to ask you about your smart lock.

00:51:49   - Oh yes, sure.

00:51:51   Let's talk about it.

00:51:52   What do you wanna know?

00:51:53   - How is smart lock life for you?

00:51:56   - So smart lock life is okay,

00:51:59   but it feels very much like a first generation product

00:52:03   and I want the second generation product.

00:52:06   And the problem is that due to legacy nodes,

00:52:11   the second generation product

00:52:14   is basically not available anywhere.

00:52:17   So there are starting to be locks,

00:52:21   theoretically, some shipped and then they stopped

00:52:24   and they're out of inventory

00:52:25   and hopefully there'll be more inventory at some point.

00:52:27   But there started to be some new locks

00:52:29   that use home key basically, they use NFC.

00:52:34   And that's what I want because NFC Smart Lock,

00:52:40   The way Apple's written their software for NFC stuff

00:52:43   like locks, you literally can tap without doing anything

00:52:47   you tap with your watch or your phone and the door unlocks.

00:52:50   - Yeah, this is like the fast pass thing for travel.

00:52:55   - Yeah, same idea.

00:52:56   So that's what I want.

00:52:58   What I have is a couple of years old

00:53:01   and it uses Bluetooth LE.

00:53:03   And you know, okay, what I like about the smart lock is

00:53:07   It does things like auto-lock

00:53:10   when you leave the door unlocked.

00:53:13   After a couple of minutes, you can set the time.

00:53:15   It locks itself.

00:53:16   That's nice.

00:53:17   If you leave the door open, it sends you an alert saying,

00:53:20   "Oh, the door is open.

00:53:22   Watch out."

00:53:23   What I don't like about it is that the Bluetooth LE thing

00:53:27   is unreliable.

00:53:29   It's a really clever hack,

00:53:31   but the way that they have to do it is

00:53:34   The lock is looking for your phone via Bluetooth LE.

00:53:39   And when it sees it, it knows that you're there

00:53:42   and that's great.

00:53:44   And then what happens is your phone,

00:53:47   your phone leaves the vicinity of your house

00:53:50   and you have to set a radius.

00:53:51   And then the app on your phone basically says, "I'm gone."

00:53:54   And then when your lock sees the phone again,

00:54:00   it goes, "Yay, you're back," and it unlocks the door.

00:54:03   There's lots of reasons for this.

00:54:04   and it's a very kind of cleverly done,

00:54:06   and it works sometimes.

00:54:09   And a lot of times it doesn't work.

00:54:11   And when it does work, a lot of times it works so slowly

00:54:14   that you're standing at the door waiting for it to open.

00:54:16   And I don't want that.

00:54:17   I wanna be able to tap and enter.

00:54:18   I wanna use my phone or my watch as a key.

00:54:21   I think it's a much better approach.

00:54:22   The other problems I have with those first-generation locks,

00:54:25   'cause I have the Yale August smart lock that does HomeKit.

00:54:29   The other problem is the lock

00:54:32   is sort of a generic smart lock.

00:54:35   And then there's a module that you put in it.

00:54:37   And so it's got the HomeKit module in it.

00:54:39   But because it's using some sort,

00:54:41   I don't even know what its smart home tech is,

00:54:43   if it's Zigbee or something like that,

00:54:44   but it's basically you have to have a dongle.

00:54:48   You have to have a little white block

00:54:50   that you plug in to an outlet somewhere.

00:54:53   And it's a bridge between the Bluetooth,

00:54:56   maybe it only does Bluetooth.

00:54:58   Actually, I think it only does Bluetooth.

00:54:59   So it has to be close enough to be in Bluetooth range,

00:55:01   plugged into a wall, it talks to the lock in Bluetooth

00:55:05   and then talks to your network in wifi.

00:55:07   And let me tell you,

00:55:08   this is where it all starts to come apart

00:55:11   because the little dongle can lose track of the network

00:55:16   or the lock.

00:55:19   The lock can lose track of a dongle.

00:55:21   The lock when it's four AA batteries get low,

00:55:26   but not so low that it tells you that the batteries are low

00:55:29   can start behaving erratically and not seeing,

00:55:34   so you'll open the app and it'll say,

00:55:36   "Your door is locked and your door is not locked."

00:55:39   Or, "Your door is unlocked and it is locked."

00:55:42   Because the app is talking to the dongle,

00:55:45   the dongle thinks it knows what's going on with the lock,

00:55:47   but either the lock is lying to it

00:55:49   or the lock is not talking to it right now.

00:55:51   But it doesn't say, "I can't find the lock."

00:55:53   It says, "Oh no, no, I see the lock and it's fine,

00:55:55   and it's not fine."

00:55:56   And that does not give you a great sense of confidence

00:55:59   when the battery, so, and this is, I think,

00:56:03   the fatal flaw of this August lock that I have now,

00:56:06   the Yale August lock, is if the battery,

00:56:09   once the batteries start to run down,

00:56:11   it starts to behave strangely.

00:56:13   And I've discovered now that whenever we have a weird moment

00:56:17   with the lock, first thing I do is unplug the dongle

00:56:20   and plug it back in.

00:56:20   Second thing is I take out a battery

00:56:22   and put it back in to reboot the lock.

00:56:24   And then after, if it's been a little while

00:56:26   since we changed the batteries, I changed the batteries.

00:56:28   And a lot of times changing the batteries

00:56:31   solves the whole thing for a while.

00:56:34   And it's not great.

00:56:35   Like it should do a better job of saying,

00:56:37   "I help, I need new batteries," than it does.

00:56:40   And so, you know, so it's fine,

00:56:44   but none of it, like I said,

00:56:46   it's a first-generation product.

00:56:49   It is the kind of tech you buy saying,

00:56:51   "Hey, smart lock, that's fun."

00:56:52   And then you realize all the things that they need

00:56:54   to make better for smart locks to be a thing.

00:56:57   And I'm hopeful that this next generation of locks

00:57:00   is a thing and the reviews are pretty good

00:57:02   from the people who've gotten them,

00:57:04   but they ran out, they basically only made a few thousand

00:57:07   or whatever and then they can't make more

00:57:09   and they haven't come in from the factory

00:57:10   because of supply chain.

00:57:12   And so we're left kind of waiting.

00:57:13   But I've got my eye on that next generation smart lock

00:57:17   and I will swap it out because the auto locking is great.

00:57:21   the auto-unlocking when you come home is great.

00:57:23   I can leave my house with,

00:57:25   when I like go for a run or something,

00:57:27   I don't bring a key with me, right?

00:57:30   And you can do that with a dumb lock, with a number pad.

00:57:32   I mean, the bottom line is that

00:57:33   when it is in super dumb mode,

00:57:35   you can still just key in the code

00:57:39   and it opens the door, right?

00:57:41   Which is fine.

00:57:42   That's the, you know,

00:57:44   some locks now that are smart locks

00:57:46   have an actual keyhole too.

00:57:49   So you can actually have a key

00:57:50   if you don't wanna deal with the smart features all.

00:57:52   And that's fine.

00:57:53   Mine doesn't have that now and it's fine.

00:57:55   But certainly if the battery died completely,

00:57:59   the best way to get into the house would be

00:58:00   if you could actually stick a key in it, which you can't.

00:58:03   - Do you have a lock that you're interested in?

00:58:05   Like at this second gen? - I do, Myke.

00:58:09   I kinda don't wanna talk about it

00:58:10   because they're gonna come into stock

00:58:12   and I wanna buy one. - Oh, okay.

00:58:13   - All right, I'll talk. - We'll follow up.

00:58:14   - Okay, upgrading's fine.

00:58:15   You know, if you find them in stock,

00:58:17   here's the deal upgrade,

00:58:18   and I'm gonna tell you what it is.

00:58:20   But if you find it in stock somewhere at a Home Depot

00:58:23   or a Lowe's or something like that,

00:58:24   if their website says they're in stock,

00:58:26   you gotta let me know immediately.

00:58:27   - Jason eats first, all right?

00:58:29   - I mean, well, no,

00:58:30   but like they're gonna come in stock soon probably.

00:58:33   And then they'll sell them all

00:58:35   and then they'll be out of stock again

00:58:36   for another few months.

00:58:37   - Right, but that's what I'm saying.

00:58:38   If Upgradians see it,

00:58:40   they gotta tell you that they've seen it.

00:58:43   And then they can buy one,

00:58:44   but they gotta tell you first. - Tell no one else.

00:58:46   - Yeah.

00:58:47   - Until I've confirmed that I bought it.

00:58:48   Okay, it's the, I don't know how this company

00:58:51   pronounces its name in America, Schleg or Schlage

00:58:54   is how we would say it in German.

00:58:56   Encode Plus.

00:58:57   The Encode Plus is a home key,

00:59:02   is this the one?

00:59:05   I think it is.

00:59:06   The home key compatible tap your watch.

00:59:10   Yeah, that's what it is.

00:59:11   Tap your iPhone or Apple Watch to unlock.

00:59:13   That is the thing.

00:59:16   - Ah, okay.

00:59:17   And there are reviews out there from April.

00:59:20   Since those reviews dropped,

00:59:21   they have not been available to purchase.

00:59:24   (laughs)

00:59:25   - Shlog. - It kills me.

00:59:26   It's killing me.

00:59:27   It's a shlog, shlage, shlage.

00:59:30   Anyway, they, they, it's an NFC door lock, smart lock.

00:59:34   - Very interesting.

00:59:36   - Encode Plus.

00:59:37   - Encode Plus. - It's gotta be

00:59:38   the Encode Plus.

00:59:38   There are other ones,

00:59:39   but the Encode Plus is the one with NFC.

00:59:41   - Other encodes are available,

00:59:43   and they are not the one you want.

00:59:44   - Mm, they are, actually.

00:59:45   And so I'm looking for, you know,

00:59:48   I'm looking for one of those.

00:59:50   It's gotta be satin nickel

00:59:52   because it has to match the rest of my door.

00:59:55   And I hope that they come into stock at some point soon.

00:59:59   That would be awfully nice.

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01:01:49   All right, when we were together in the historic episode of Upgrade, where we sat far across

01:01:59   a table from each other.

01:02:00   Ah, yes.

01:02:01   After eating in and out burger.

01:02:02   Yes, the social distance episode of Upgrade.

01:02:04   where I was very full of coronavirus

01:02:08   and you were very kind.

01:02:10   - At the long end of the table, like pooping.

01:02:12   - Long end of the table.

01:02:14   - Yep.

01:02:14   - Long end of the table.

01:02:15   Long end of the table.

01:02:17   - Yep.

01:02:18   - We were talking, you were telling me the story

01:02:21   of how you accidentally upgraded your Mac Studio

01:02:26   to Ventura, to macOS Ventura.

01:02:29   - Yep.

01:02:30   - Well, you've done it again.

01:02:31   - I did that.

01:02:32   I did it again, it's true.

01:02:33   Oops, I did it again.

01:02:34   - And as I wrote in the document,

01:02:36   Jason's second Ventura upgrade,

01:02:38   and this time it's personal.

01:02:40   Because you've done it by choice now, right?

01:02:43   - I did it on purpose.

01:02:44   Yeah, this time it's purposeful.

01:02:46   Yeah, I did it.

01:02:48   I did it.

01:02:49   I gotta live with it.

01:02:50   This is the reality of writing about betas,

01:02:53   is at some point you have to live with them,

01:02:56   and live with them is not reboot into them occasionally

01:02:59   as a tourist, and then go back to your actual work.

01:03:02   it isn't running it in a virtual machine,

01:03:04   at some point you actually have to use it

01:03:06   because otherwise you're not experiencing it.

01:03:10   Right, like I can't write about the details

01:03:12   of an operating system I'm not using

01:03:13   just by like kind of flitting around

01:03:15   and looking at menus and stuff and then leaving.

01:03:17   You gotta put yourself through it, even if there are bugs.

01:03:20   And so I had to do that.

01:03:21   And the difficulty with that is that there is software

01:03:24   that we rely on to do podcasts that doesn't work in it.

01:03:28   So I have to commit to this

01:03:31   and I also have to commit to a janky recording setup

01:03:34   where I'm recording and talking to people for podcasts

01:03:37   on a separate computer because that's the only way.

01:03:42   So I'm looking, I'm sitting here at my desk

01:03:43   looking at my studio display on my Mac studio

01:03:46   that I do every day like I used to do with my iMac.

01:03:49   And then off to the left is a laptop

01:03:53   that is running Zoom and Audio Hijack.

01:03:55   And that's where we're actually having this conversation.

01:03:58   - So all of your audio gear is connected to the,

01:04:01   what laptop is it now?

01:04:03   - MacBook Air.

01:04:04   - MacBook Air, is it the new one?

01:04:06   The M2 one?

01:04:06   - It's actually the Apple review unit

01:04:09   because it doesn't have to go back for another month

01:04:11   and by then hopefully Audio Hijack will run on Ventura.

01:04:14   So we'll see.

01:04:15   - So you've got all of your audio gear plugged into that

01:04:18   and that's doing the recording.

01:04:20   But you're looking at all the show notes and Discord

01:04:22   and everything on your Mac studio in Ventura.

01:04:24   - Exactly.

01:04:25   - On the studio display in front of you.

01:04:28   and I'm able to use universal control to click the buttons

01:04:30   I need to click over on the MacBook Air,

01:04:32   but mostly it just sits there.

01:04:33   - Now that's cool, isn't it?

01:04:34   That's a cool feature that wasn't there.

01:04:36   I guess the last time you tried to do this.

01:04:38   - Was not there the last time I tried to do this.

01:04:40   So that part is nice, that part is nice.

01:04:42   - 'Cause you do this every year anyway.

01:04:46   And it's not just because like this year it's special

01:04:48   because AudioHydric just doesn't work

01:04:50   like by developer choice at the moment, right?

01:04:53   Is that still the case?

01:04:54   - Last year was also the case.

01:04:55   I mean, yeah, it's still the case.

01:04:58   - Okay, that was like, I couldn't remember if,

01:04:59   'cause I know in the past it hasn't worked,

01:05:01   which is why they have decided to just keep it

01:05:05   to themselves until they have full support.

01:05:06   - That's the answer, is two years ago it broke horribly.

01:05:09   Last year and this year they decided

01:05:11   they were just going to turn off support for it

01:05:13   because otherwise they're going to get people

01:05:16   complaining that it doesn't work.

01:05:17   And the truth is, I talked to Paul Kaphas

01:05:21   of "Rogue Amoeba" about this, the truth is OS updates

01:05:25   tend to break the audio subsystem.

01:05:27   they just do.

01:05:28   And a rogue Amoeba's concern is that they're gonna get

01:05:32   blamed for bugs that are Apple's bugs in the betas.

01:05:36   And when somebody's recording fails, it's really bad.

01:05:39   And so they basically have made the executive decision

01:05:43   to not let you make a bad decision about using audio hijack

01:05:46   on a beta by saying no.

01:05:49   - 'Cause at least this where they can't be blamed.

01:05:51   However, you don't necessarily know this is gonna happen

01:05:53   to you until it happens to you though, right?

01:05:55   - Indeed, and in fact, I mean, that's what,

01:05:58   the thing that bothers me about it is,

01:05:59   I have no evidence that it actually

01:06:01   doesn't work fine in Ventura.

01:06:03   It might.

01:06:04   - But at least for what you wanna do.

01:06:06   - For what I wanna do, I don't know,

01:06:08   but it doesn't matter because it doesn't work, it's disabled.

01:06:11   So second computer it is.

01:06:13   Last year I used my Mac Mini,

01:06:15   which I've since moved out of my office

01:06:16   and it's in another room in the house.

01:06:18   But last year I had the Mac Mini

01:06:19   and I had a big, big USB extension cord

01:06:24   so I could run from all the way where the Mac Mini was

01:06:26   over to where my audio interface was and plug in

01:06:29   and use remote desktop to control everything,

01:06:32   use screens for that.

01:06:34   But now I just have a laptop sitting here.

01:06:36   It's fine.

01:06:37   I had to buy an ethernet adapter for it.

01:06:39   - Yeah.

01:06:40   I mean, also though, in the past,

01:06:42   there has been like a,

01:06:44   I'm just not going to use Ventura to record the podcast

01:06:47   because if something goes wrong.

01:06:49   - Sure.

01:06:50   - Right, like that's definitely been a thing.

01:06:52   So how long have you been using it daily?

01:06:55   - Couple of weeks.

01:06:57   - How has this experience been so far?

01:07:00   - It's fine.

01:07:01   It's fine.

01:07:03   I notice very little that is an issue.

01:07:06   I think Safari is, I've had some weird things in Safari,

01:07:09   which I think are extension related,

01:07:11   but I think it's one of those cases where extensions

01:07:14   get out of sync with Safari,

01:07:16   where you've got like a beta of Safari,

01:07:18   but the extensions are not beta.

01:07:21   And so I've had to turn off a bunch of browser extensions

01:07:24   and I've had cases where Safari just gets really slow

01:07:27   or it loads really slowly or it can't see a webpage.

01:07:30   I also related to that,

01:07:31   I had private browsing turned itself back on.

01:07:35   So I turned that back off and that helped some,

01:07:38   but I think extensions are still an issue.

01:07:41   - What do you mean private browsing turned itself back on?

01:07:43   What does it mean?

01:07:44   - Well, I haven't had the iCloud private browsing feature on

01:07:50   - Oh, you mean iCloud private relay?

01:07:52   - Private relay, yeah, that's it.

01:07:53   - Right, 'cause private browsing is different.

01:07:55   - Sorry, it's just the other thing.

01:07:56   - Yeah, 'cause that was a little confusing.

01:07:58   You can turn it off?

01:07:59   - No, it's the iCloud relay thing that I don't want

01:08:01   because it doesn't work right

01:08:02   even though it's not in beta anymore.

01:08:03   Is it still in beta?

01:08:04   I don't know, anyway.

01:08:05   I turned it off again and then everything was okay.

01:08:09   Except for all the parts that weren't okay

01:08:11   because of extensions and it would slow.

01:08:12   And I have apps that are slow, like BB Edit is sluggish

01:08:17   and I don't know why.

01:08:19   I filed that as a feedback.

01:08:20   I asked bare bones about it and they said,

01:08:22   "Hmm, file that as a feedback."

01:08:24   I was like, okay, well that suggests

01:08:26   that something is going on that they don't like.

01:08:29   So yeah, but it's fine.

01:08:30   Generally, I can get my job done and it's usable.

01:08:35   I have opinions that I'm putting together

01:08:39   about some of the decisions they've made.

01:08:42   I think the Settings app is still kind of a disaster,

01:08:47   but I'm still using it and forming my opinions

01:08:50   and we'll go from there.

01:08:52   But I did write last week on Six Colors

01:08:54   about how they took a feature that's been in Mac OS

01:08:56   since 10.0 and removed it in this version.

01:08:59   - What was this feature?

01:09:01   I don't feel like I understand.

01:09:02   - Network locations.

01:09:03   It's basically you can set,

01:09:04   you basically can set presets of your network settings

01:09:07   and switch between them.

01:09:09   Switch among them if you have many of them.

01:09:11   And it's gone.

01:09:13   It seems to exist still in the command line,

01:09:17   but it's been removed from the interface itself.

01:09:20   And it's been there since 10.0, I checked.

01:09:23   You use Steven Hackett's library of screenshots to check.

01:09:26   It's been there since 10.0.

01:09:28   So I wrote about that.

01:09:29   And there are some utilities that used to sort of like

01:09:30   go beyond that have been largely abandoned

01:09:32   that I wonder if they will come back because of that.

01:09:36   And I don't know whether they abandoned that

01:09:38   because the system settings interface was too complicated

01:09:41   or whether they thought nobody used it or what.

01:09:44   But I thought it was interesting that that feature is gone.

01:09:46   And in general, I think that the settings app

01:09:49   is kind of a mess and ugly and inconsistent and--

01:09:52   - I will say this network locations thing,

01:09:55   it definitely feels like something that like,

01:09:57   it's fine to get rid of this, like coming, you know?

01:10:00   - Well, so here is the thing.

01:10:02   I think you're probably right.

01:10:04   And it actually sounds like

01:10:05   a great third party opportunity to me.

01:10:07   - Sure.

01:10:08   - Like the existing apps may or may not be revived

01:10:11   or somebody could write something new that does this.

01:10:13   I believe the control down in the command line

01:10:16   is still there to control these settings.

01:10:18   So you could probably do it.

01:10:20   Somebody wanted to make a new app

01:10:21   that switched between network locations

01:10:25   and maybe did some other stuff

01:10:26   and maybe even offered shortcuts actions

01:10:28   so people could use shortcuts

01:10:30   to control the network locations.

01:10:31   Like there's an opportunity here.

01:10:33   Somebody on Twitter, and I don't know,

01:10:35   it was not a real name, it was just a handle,

01:10:37   suggested that the act of Apple removing a feature

01:10:40   and therefore creating a third-party app opportunity

01:10:43   should be called a Moriarty.

01:10:45   - Yep, love it, into it.

01:10:46   - Reverser, the reverse Sherlock.

01:10:48   And I think probably, I think this is a good example

01:10:52   where this utility didn't need to exist

01:10:54   because it was just in the OS for the people who used it.

01:10:57   And I did hear from people who use this feature.

01:10:59   So this seems like a perfect kind of thing.

01:11:01   It's esoteric enough that it doesn't need to be done

01:11:04   by Apple as long as there's an option

01:11:06   for the people who need it.

01:11:07   - James Thompson in the chat,

01:11:08   Network locations by Peacock.

01:11:11   - Oh man.

01:11:12   So what you do is you literally,

01:11:14   you open network locations by Peacock

01:11:16   and you're in the Peacock car.

01:11:19   And if you want to go to a different location

01:11:21   for your network, you have to drive there.

01:11:22   - Yeah, get in there and drive.

01:11:24   While we're just taking this brief pause

01:11:26   in the conversation here,

01:11:29   I'll just say that Savva in the Discord

01:11:31   has posted a link to build.com, whatever that is.

01:11:35   You can put an order in.

01:11:36   It will arrive in nine to 14 weeks of the Schlag

01:11:39   and Club Plus century touchscreen electronic deadbolt

01:11:44   with wifi.

01:11:45   - I don't believe it.

01:11:46   - You don't believe it's true?

01:11:48   - I don't believe it.

01:11:49   - Yeah, nine to 14 weeks sounds like they're just gonna

01:11:52   email you in eight weeks and be like,

01:11:54   "Sorry, this isn't happening."

01:11:55   - Yeah, what I like about it is that they're actually

01:11:57   taking orders, whereas most places are like,

01:11:59   "We don't have it in stock."

01:12:01   Whether they would actually ship the order

01:12:03   remains to be seen.

01:12:04   - Free shipping. - Maybe.

01:12:06   free shipping. Stage Manager, do you use it?

01:12:09   - Stage Manager, do you use it?

01:12:12   - Well, let me ask you a second question

01:12:13   before you answer the first question.

01:12:14   Do you use it as more than a curiosity if you do use it?

01:12:18   - I am not, I have not spent a lot of time in Stage Manager.

01:12:21   And this is one of the telling things.

01:12:22   There's the kind of experimenting with new features

01:12:26   to review them and there's the doing my job.

01:12:29   And I have not yet taken the plunge of saying,

01:12:32   oh no, I'm going to try to do my job with Stage Manager.

01:12:34   So I need to go back to that.

01:12:35   I've spent time in it, but since I moved my primary to it,

01:12:39   I have not spent any time with it.

01:12:41   - I remain excited about "Stage Manager" on the Mac.

01:12:43   I think I'm gonna really dig it.

01:12:45   I think I'm gonna dig it.

01:12:47   I assume one of the things you are spending a lot of time

01:12:49   in though is the photos?

01:12:51   - Yes, so much.

01:12:53   - For the book, right?

01:12:54   'Cause this is gonna be a big update year

01:12:56   for your photos book.

01:12:58   - Yeah, I think it's gonna be a full brand new edition,

01:13:02   the whole thing.

01:13:03   - It's take control of photos, right?

01:13:06   - Take control of photos, yeah.

01:13:09   - This must be a pretty daunting task.

01:13:10   You're gonna get that thing done.

01:13:12   - Yeah, and it's the middle of August now,

01:13:15   so it really feels like the time,

01:13:16   you know, it's right around the corner,

01:13:17   the summer's gonna be over,

01:13:18   and there's gonna be new iPhones and all that.

01:13:21   Yeah, photos, I mean, the big change in photos, though,

01:13:24   is the shared photo library stuff,

01:13:26   which is, they've actually done a really good job with it.

01:13:28   There are a lot of quirks that I get to detail in the book,

01:13:30   but it's good, it's smart and it seems to work pretty well.

01:13:35   So that's all good.

01:13:37   I had to make a new Apple ID

01:13:41   or revive an ancient unused Apple ID

01:13:44   in order to share a photo library with myself

01:13:47   in order to test that feature, which has been amusing

01:13:50   'cause I'm not gonna force it on my family

01:13:53   and I'm not gonna force betas on my family.

01:13:55   So I've got like an iPhone that's logged into my me.com

01:13:59   Apple ID, just so I can do all that kind of tests stuff.

01:14:04   - Did you create a separate library to do the sharing

01:14:08   or are you doing the sharing of your real library?

01:14:11   - It's my real library. - Okay.

01:14:13   - And again, that comes back to the tourist thing,

01:14:15   which is I can't log out of my, I don't,

01:14:19   I just, I can't do it.

01:14:21   I've got my library and my library has been through

01:14:23   a bazillion photos, betas.

01:14:25   It's all backed up in case something disastrous happened,

01:14:28   but I've never had something disastrous happen

01:14:31   and I need to have the real photo library to test it out.

01:14:35   - That makes sense.

01:14:38   Do you have any other thoughts of Ventura?

01:14:40   Is it gonna be, do you think like,

01:14:43   really it's like photos and stage manager

01:14:44   and then just keeping up with iOS features

01:14:47   like messages or whatever?

01:14:49   Is there anything else that interests you about it so far?

01:14:52   - No, I feel like it's pretty quiet right now.

01:14:57   Obviously the big stories on the iPad side,

01:15:01   it's stage manager and on the iPhone side,

01:15:04   it's the lock screen.

01:15:06   Ventura, you know,

01:15:08   the, I mean, it picks up all those other features

01:15:14   that everybody else gets.

01:15:16   And I've used the continuity camera a little bit

01:15:18   and that is fine, but it is, you know,

01:15:21   you use it and you're like, oh, there it is, right?

01:15:24   That's what it is.

01:15:26   - Oh yeah, continuity camera, yeah.

01:15:28   - Yeah, I feel like that's the big Mac feature,

01:15:32   is which it's actually an iPhone feature,

01:15:34   but it's a Mac feature too, it's continuity camera.

01:15:36   And then everything else is sort of for everybody.

01:15:39   So yeah, I've unsent and edited messages

01:15:42   and that was fine.

01:15:45   I have not yet actually used a shared tab group

01:15:49   for something that was not silly, but that's okay.

01:15:51   And I need to force myself.

01:15:55   Another thing I need to do is I have to force myself

01:15:56   to use mail on Mac because I don't use mail on Mac.

01:16:00   And I do on iPad and iPhone, but on the Mac I use--

01:16:03   - Oh, right, yeah. - Mime stream.

01:16:04   - 'Cause there's the like, modern Mac,

01:16:08   modern email features, right?

01:16:10   - Right, right, which are, I have to test out

01:16:12   because it sounds like this is, we'll test them out,

01:16:15   but it's one of those things where like Apple Silicon Macs

01:16:17   don't really ever sleep, you know,

01:16:20   they're kind of always awake at a low level,

01:16:23   just like iPhones and iPads,

01:16:24   and yet I believe when you queue a message to send

01:16:28   at like 2 a.m. and you put your computer to sleep,

01:16:31   it doesn't wake up at 2 a.m. and send the message,

01:16:33   but I gotta test it.

01:16:34   - John Voigt said that on a,

01:16:36   and I go on an app stories, - It does make sense.

01:16:38   - and my mind blows. - It does make sense.

01:16:40   - It's like, what is the fricking point of that feature?

01:16:42   - Well, let me tell you, I'm gonna file that away

01:16:45   with the one that kills me to this day,

01:16:48   which is I am so used to listening to music

01:16:52   on an iPad or an iPhone.

01:16:55   And if I'm listening to music on my Mac,

01:16:58   unlike a MacBook Air that I've got my headphones in,

01:17:01   or I've got AirPods connected to them,

01:17:04   and I close the lid and the music stops playing

01:17:07   and I go, "What?"

01:17:08   Because on Apple's other devices,

01:17:11   when you close the lid and the music is going,

01:17:14   it keeps going. - It keeps going, yeah.

01:17:16   - But on the Mac, they're like, "Nope, show's over.

01:17:18   Nothing to see here."

01:17:19   And this is just like that, which is,

01:17:21   "Oh yeah, you can queue that thing to go at 2 a.m.,

01:17:23   but the Mac won't actually send it," which doesn't,

01:17:26   again, Apple Silicon theoretically isn't doing

01:17:29   the dark wake thing where it's like,

01:17:32   on Intel Macs, they would wake up for certain tasks.

01:17:36   - Power nap.

01:17:37   - Power nap, yeah.

01:17:39   Dark wake was the developer title for it.

01:17:41   There's theoretically no power nap on Apple Silicon Macs

01:17:44   because they don't need to power nap

01:17:45   'cause they're always around, except apparently not.

01:17:50   I don't know.

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01:19:58   program.

01:19:59   It is time for some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:20:04   Oh, nice.

01:20:06   The first comes from TVwonder today.

01:20:09   This is not a TV-related question.

01:20:11   But her name is TVwonder.

01:20:13   You thought it was going to be TV-related, but it isn't.

01:20:15   They would like to know, "How do you pronounce

01:20:19   'apple' and then the S word that talks about the chips?"

01:20:23   I don't want to say it yet, because I'm going to say it in two different ways.

01:20:26   pronounce it apple silicon or apple silicon? And did this change since Apple

01:20:33   released the M1 Max and people started pronouncing it like apple silicon like

01:20:39   fun at the end rather than on at the end? They say they've always pronounced it

01:20:44   like on at the end like apple silicon so it always sounds weird when anyone

01:20:49   to pronounce? Is it like Apple does?

01:20:51   - Okay, so I think that this is an alternate

01:20:56   pronunciation that is pretty common,

01:21:00   that people say silicon instead of silicon.

01:21:05   What's funny is I hear it both ways,

01:21:08   I've always heard it both ways.

01:21:09   Silicon Valley doesn't seem strange.

01:21:11   Silicon Valley actually doesn't seem strange.

01:21:13   So I think there's a, it may even be a California-ism

01:21:17   of shortening or changing the end of silicon to silicon.

01:21:22   I always preferred silicon

01:21:26   because that's the, to me, that feels like the pronunciation

01:21:32   of the element silicon, but so many words in,

01:21:37   I think, California English, you kinda shrink 'em down

01:21:43   to nn at the end instead of on

01:21:45   in pronouncing the vowel sound.

01:21:47   You swallow that vowel sound.

01:21:49   And I think, I'm sure that there's a linguist out there

01:21:53   who could probably say exactly what this effect is,

01:21:56   but I think it's pretty common.

01:21:58   So I think it's pretty common,

01:22:00   just California at least way of swallowing that vowel sound.

01:22:05   However, once Apple starts referring to it

01:22:08   as Apple Silicon pronounced that way

01:22:11   in every single communication they make,

01:22:15   it's kind of hard not to just go with it,

01:22:16   especially since-- - You internalize it.

01:22:18   Like that's what happened to me.

01:22:19   - Especially since it's one of the pronunciations

01:22:21   that I would consider fine, I don't care.

01:22:25   - It's not like they called it Apple Silicon, you know?

01:22:28   - Yeah, if they called it silicone,

01:22:29   we would have a problem because just for the record,

01:22:31   silicone, totally different thing.

01:22:34   And people do that all the time.

01:22:35   How many times have we-- - Oh, I used to do it

01:22:37   in the beginning. - Computer nerds heard

01:22:38   about Silicon Valley and it's like,

01:22:40   that's LA that you're thinking of there,

01:22:42   with Silicon Valley, this is the Silicon Valley,

01:22:44   It's just, it's chips, chips, chips, chips, chips,

01:22:47   and sand, I guess, sand, silicon, silicon.

01:22:51   It's fine either way.

01:22:53   So the answer is yes, it's sort of an Apple thing,

01:22:55   but also sort of not.

01:22:57   It's more like a Californianism

01:23:00   and they've decided to standardize on,

01:23:02   honestly, they also have decided to standardize

01:23:04   on not capitalizing it.

01:23:05   So it's capital A Apple, silicon, lowercase S,

01:23:09   and that drives me nuts, like, ugh.

01:23:11   But that's, I mean, I think it's right,

01:23:14   but it's like such a brand name

01:23:16   that it would be kind of easier

01:23:17   if it was capital A, capital S,

01:23:19   but it's not, it's just Apple Silicon.

01:23:22   So you kind of go with it because why?

01:23:26   Yeah, I mean like if that's how every single communicator

01:23:29   from Apple refers to it and it's a not,

01:23:33   you know, it's a variant, but not to my ears wrong,

01:23:36   then I just am gonna go with it.

01:23:38   But TV Wonder is not,

01:23:40   which also sounds like Stevie Wonder,

01:23:41   which I think is maybe what they're going for there.

01:23:44   is not wrong to say it seems weird, 'cause, yeah, I mean,

01:23:48   silicon is the standard pronunciation.

01:23:52   What do you do in England?

01:23:53   Do you call it like siliconium?

01:23:54   - Oh, don't ask me, man.

01:23:56   Don't ask me what people say in England.

01:23:57   - Siliconium?

01:23:58   - 'Cause everyone's just gonna get mad at me.

01:24:00   - Siliconium, no, no, no.

01:24:01   - You say things like an American.

01:24:02   So like, I can't be trusted

01:24:04   with any pronunciation of anything.

01:24:06   - Oh, and they said that like an American.

01:24:08   - Yeah.

01:24:09   - Oh, you say things like an American, dude.

01:24:11   - Dude, yeah.

01:24:12   That's how British people sound, I think.

01:24:14   That's what I'm saying.

01:24:15   Howdy y'all, I'm from Somerset.

01:24:18   I assume, I will assume I used to say silicon,

01:24:25   like silicon, like on, right?

01:24:26   Silicon. - Silicon.

01:24:27   - Silicon, silicon.

01:24:28   So now I can't do it right.

01:24:30   But now I say silicon. - Silicon Valley.

01:24:31   - Not like that, silicon, silicon.

01:24:34   That's how I imagine it said here normally.

01:24:37   But I say silicon now because Apple say it that way.

01:24:42   And so we just internalize it.

01:24:44   This is just a thing.

01:24:45   It's the same as like when, you know,

01:24:48   if Apple say a thing a certain way,

01:24:49   everyone starts saying it.

01:24:50   Like everyone said secret sauce for a long time

01:24:52   because they said that they were doing that with AirPods.

01:24:55   So everyone was just saying secret sauce,

01:24:56   secret sauce all the time and that drove me mad.

01:24:58   But I like the way silicon sounds more than silicon.

01:25:02   I like, 'cause it's just easier to say silicon.

01:25:05   It's easier to say.

01:25:06   - That's why we swallow the vowel there

01:25:08   is 'cause it is easier to say.

01:25:10   - Absolutely.

01:25:10   - Silicon.

01:25:12   - This is some silly fun with silicon.

01:25:14   Leon asks, "Do you think the rumored always on display

01:25:17   on the iPhone feature on the upcoming models

01:25:21   would be something you'd be able to turn off?

01:25:23   I can't think of a single reason I'd need or want it."

01:25:26   What I will say to you first, Leon,

01:25:27   is don't worry about that yet.

01:25:29   Let Apple tell you why you might want it, right?

01:25:32   That's what you want first.

01:25:34   - I will refer you to the Apple Watch,

01:25:35   which has a setting in display settings called always on

01:25:39   that you can turn on or off.

01:25:40   I'm sure it'll be the same way.

01:25:42   I can think of lots of reasons

01:25:44   that I would need/want it, Leon,

01:25:47   and maybe you will be surprised.

01:25:49   But if not, I'm sure they'll let you turn it off.

01:25:51   - Leon, do a deal with us, all right?

01:25:54   - Oh.

01:25:55   - When Apple announce it,

01:25:56   then say if you don't want it, let us know.

01:26:03   Once Apple has shown you what it could do, let me know.

01:26:07   You can tweet at us again, #AskUpgrade.

01:26:10   Let us know then if you're interested.

01:26:12   So what you're saying, Myke,

01:26:13   is that Leon can't think of a single reason,

01:26:16   but Apple probably can.

01:26:17   I mean, it's Apple's job too, right?

01:26:20   Uh-huh, yeah.

01:26:21   Like, Leon, you might just not know why you want it yet,

01:26:23   'cause you haven't, like,

01:26:25   it hasn't come to mind. Isn't that Apple

01:26:26   in a nutshell? Yeah.

01:26:27   I don't know why I'd want this thing.

01:26:28   That's their job. Apple says things,

01:26:29   and you're like, "Oh, that's fine."

01:26:30   I do want that. "Oh, I do."

01:26:31   Exactly. "You're gonna take my money."

01:26:34   Luke says, "With the torque of two sizes for the iPhone 14,

01:26:40   What's the thinking on calling,

01:26:41   what would be the thinking on calling the larger phone

01:26:45   the max phone versus the plus phone?

01:26:47   Is it just for unification?

01:26:49   Has Apple ever had a non-pro larger phone called the max?

01:26:53   Do you think the plus nomenclature will ever return?

01:26:56   No.

01:26:58   - There you go.

01:26:59   - Do you wanna know why?

01:27:01   - Why?

01:27:02   - Services get plus.

01:27:02   - I think it's confusing.

01:27:07   I think you want parallel nomenclature.

01:27:09   - It would be weird to have four different phone names.

01:27:12   - Larger phone is max and plus then it's like,

01:27:14   well plus isn't pro, plus isn't pro.

01:27:17   Plus is actually the same as the non-plus,

01:27:19   which is just the 13 or 14.

01:27:22   It's the same, but so it's plus is only its size,

01:27:25   but then there's the pro and the pro has more features

01:27:27   and then the pro max, which like it's too much.

01:27:29   It's too many things.

01:27:30   I think 14, 14 max, 14 pro, 14 pro max

01:27:35   makes the most sense.

01:27:37   Pro max is a ridiculous name I know,

01:27:39   but it's the name we have.

01:27:41   And so calling it a Max, I think it's the right decision

01:27:44   not to muddy the waters with yet another word

01:27:47   that's used to describe literally the same thing,

01:27:50   which is it has a larger screen as the Pro Max.

01:27:53   - I think it will be cleaner.

01:27:55   Like, you know, as you say, right?

01:27:57   You've got 14, 14 Max, 14 Pro, 14 Pro Max.

01:28:01   Like that's nice and clean.

01:28:04   Just in the naming, you can understand

01:28:06   what these products are,

01:28:07   potentially how they might differ from each other.

01:28:10   It's good.

01:28:11   I think the plus name has gone away.

01:28:13   Max.

01:28:14   Max is here to stay.

01:28:16   - All right.

01:28:17   - Ian asks, "Ever since my Mac LC2 in 1990,

01:28:22   every desktop Mac I've owned costs $2,500.

01:28:27   It's finally time to replace my 2015 27-inch iMac.

01:28:31   What is the best desktop Mac I can get for $2,500 today?"

01:28:36   I got a lot of respect for this game.

01:28:38   - Uh-huh.

01:28:39   - This is great.

01:28:40   - I feel like I've played this game.

01:28:41   I think at some point I said before I bought my iMac Pro

01:28:43   that almost every computer I've ever bought was $2,500.

01:28:46   So I'm right there with Ian.

01:28:48   Okay, play the game, Myke, go for it.

01:28:50   - Well, I looked it up today.

01:28:51   Obviously you're going for a Mac studio, right?

01:28:55   Right?

01:28:56   Ooh, you know what I didn't consider for Ian here?

01:29:00   - The display.

01:29:01   - The display.

01:29:02   Ooh, now I don't feel so good about what I said

01:29:05   'cause what I said was,

01:29:07   Mac Studio with 32 gigabytes of RAM

01:29:10   and a one terabyte SSD is 2199.

01:29:13   But then if you wanna bump one of those specs up,

01:29:16   the RAM on the SSD, 2600.

01:29:19   But now,

01:29:20   now I don't know what to do

01:29:23   because you're gonna need a display.

01:29:26   Now you could just go with the 2199

01:29:29   and I bet you could find a good display for,

01:29:31   well a decent display for $400.

01:29:33   It's not gonna be a studio display

01:29:35   but you could get a display, you know?

01:29:38   - Yeah, I think so the display is the question,

01:29:40   does Ian have a display?

01:29:42   Since he's got a 27 inch iMac, my guess is no.

01:29:47   - Yeah.

01:29:48   - So this is the challenge because what I think

01:29:52   you should be able to buy and can't just yet

01:29:56   is an iMac Pro that's about 27 inches

01:30:03   that's got a M2 Pro chip in it for 2,500.

01:30:08   That's what you should be able to buy.

01:30:13   Right now, you can get a maxed out M1 iMac for only 2,000.

01:30:18   Save yourself that money.

01:30:20   You get a studio display.

01:30:22   You could get a nice like a Mac studio

01:30:26   and a display that you find somewhere on the street

01:30:30   or on sale and attach that.

01:30:33   Or otherwise you get a Mac mini and a studio display

01:30:37   and then in a couple of years you replace it with something.

01:30:40   Once you've got the display, right,

01:30:42   then your computer upgrades can go back

01:30:45   to being $2,500 a shot 'cause you can just keep the display.

01:30:48   But it's a tricky one now 'cause yeah,

01:30:52   it's either gonna be a Mac mini,

01:30:53   and Ian specifically said desktop Mac

01:30:56   and that limits it, right?

01:30:57   'cause you could get like a MacBook Air

01:31:00   and a studio display, but that's not what Ian wants.

01:31:04   - No, I have assumed that Ian is looking

01:31:06   for a desktop computer here.

01:31:08   Like that is my, I took that as an assumption

01:31:10   and just remembered it.

01:31:11   - But this is the, well, yeah,

01:31:13   what's the best desktop Mac I can get is the question.

01:31:15   So it's right there.

01:31:16   So I think the answer is this is the hole

01:31:20   in the desktop market where Apple either has an M1 iMac

01:31:25   at 24 inches, or you have to buy a display and a Mac Studio.

01:31:30   And that's where a 27-inch iMac would fit.

01:31:35   And it's not there right now.

01:31:37   You know, maybe next year, but not right now.

01:31:40   It's not there.

01:31:41   So you either have to commit to an external display

01:31:43   and then a Mac Studio or a Mac Mini,

01:31:46   or save yourself money and get the M1 iMac.

01:31:51   Those are your choices.

01:31:52   - If you would like to send in a question for us to answer,

01:31:55   a future episode of Upgrade. You can tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade or use ?AskUpgrade

01:32:00   in the RelayFM members Discord which you get access to. If you sign up to GetUpgradePlus.com

01:32:06   and you're an UpgradePlus subscriber, thank you so much to everybody that has and also

01:32:10   thank you to our sponsors of this week's episode, Memberful, Sourcegraph, Squarespace and Taxexpander.

01:32:15   But as always, thank you for listening and we'll be back next week if you want to find

01:32:20   this in the meantime go to sixcolors.com go to the incomparable.com and @jasonl

01:32:25   that's where Jason is. Jason also hosts some shows here on relay FM like I do

01:32:29   relay.fm/shows go find something new and add it to your podcast queue

01:32:33   I am @imike, I am Y-A-K-E. Until next time say goodbye Jason Snow

01:32:38   goodbye Myke Hurley

01:32:42   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:32:45   you

01:32:47   [ Silence ]