415: My Body Is My Studio, My Exercises Are My Canvas


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:12   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 415. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:18   Squarespace, Source Graph and Capital One. My name is Myke Hurley, it is the Summer of Fun!

00:00:24   Summer of Fun!

00:00:26   And I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:28   - Or fun. Hello, Myke Hurley. Happy summer of fun and happy upgrade to you.

00:00:32   - And to you, my friend, and to you. I have a #snowtalk question.

00:00:36   To start off this week's episode, in case you're new around here,

00:00:39   Snow Talk is to get us started in the show and avoid small talk.

00:00:44   And this week's question was submitted by listener Mac, who says,

00:00:48   "If the summer is the summer of fun, what are the other seasons?"

00:00:52   - The other, like, upgrade seasons?

00:00:57   - Sure.

00:00:59   - Okay, we can start with winter 'cause that's easy,

00:01:02   'cause we've already defined it.

00:01:05   It's the winter of no content.

00:01:07   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:01:09   The winter of no content,

00:01:11   'cause there's no content in the winter.

00:01:12   So like, you know, we think the summer's bad, right?

00:01:15   We came up with the summer of fun,

00:01:17   because we like to do fun things in the summer,

00:01:19   because usually it's quiet for stories and news

00:01:22   in the summer for us to talk about.

00:01:23   So we have to be a little bit more creative.

00:01:26   But truly the problem is winter.

00:01:28   (laughs)

00:01:28   It's like over time it's kind of shifted,

00:01:31   but now here we are in the summer.

00:01:32   But it's like those winter months,

00:01:33   so like those first three months of the year,

00:01:35   whoa, that's where the--

00:01:36   - Well, the summer of fun doesn't exist

00:01:39   because there's nothing going on.

00:01:40   It exists because there's not a lot going on

00:01:43   'cause it's that cruise until the fall,

00:01:44   the beta's been announced and then we're kind of cruising.

00:01:47   But also it exists because you and I,

00:01:49   and many people travel in the summer.

00:01:51   And so we ended up having those scenarios

00:01:53   where we had to have weird episodes that were out of time,

00:01:56   you know, we're banking it a week in advance or that.

00:01:58   And that led us down this path to sort of making a theme

00:02:02   out of it because the summer got really weird some years

00:02:06   where, you know, there was one where like you were gone

00:02:09   and then I was gone.

00:02:10   So like I did the,

00:02:11   I did that thing that was like live

00:02:13   from that automation event.

00:02:15   And then the next time, and that was a delayed one.

00:02:18   And then I came back and I think you were gone.

00:02:21   There was a whole, like, that's why we do Summer of Fun.

00:02:23   So winter, yes, it's true.

00:02:24   Winter is, uh, is rougher.

00:02:27   And so the winter of discontent is the winter of no content.

00:02:30   I came up with two, two potential ideas.

00:02:33   Yeah.

00:02:33   No, I'm not saying we do this because we don't need a brand for every season.

00:02:38   No, we don't.

00:02:38   I was thinking fall of plenty because the fall was the best time of the year, right?

00:02:44   This is just stuff happening left, right.

00:02:46   And center.

00:02:47   and then springing towards the summer,

00:02:50   because in spring, all we're doing is waiting for WWDC

00:02:54   at that point.

00:02:55   - Yeah, that's fair.

00:02:57   Sure, sure.

00:02:57   But I agree with you that we don't actually need

00:03:00   to brand the other seasons, but just for Mac purposes,

00:03:02   we'll go with that.

00:03:03   - It's like, you know, in the sense of like,

00:03:05   we have always had in our mind this joke of like,

00:03:07   the winter of no content.

00:03:09   - Yes, that one we got.

00:03:11   The other ones haven't happened yet.

00:03:13   Fall of iPhone, but fall of really everything.

00:03:16   It's everything now. This is the thing, it's not just the iPhone anymore, right?

00:03:19   It's just literally everything.

00:03:21   If you would like to help us open an episode of Upgrade and be involved in the show,

00:03:26   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #SNELtalk with your question,

00:03:29   or use question mark #SNELtalk in the Relay FM members Discord.

00:03:33   I have some follow out, Jason Snell.

00:03:36   If you are listening to this, kind of at the start of the week, Monday or Tuesday,

00:03:40   you have a very short time left to get your own Upgrade Summer of Fun t-shirt.

00:03:48   This is going to be cutting off, I think on the 13th for most people, but you've got to find out

00:03:55   on the page. It has a localized When the End of the Sail is. But if you're on the page,

00:04:00   buy the shirt. Go to upgradeyourwardrobe.com. Don't wait any longer because if you wait much

00:04:06   longer you won't get one. Wednesday July 13th 2022 at 5 p.m. Pacific time

00:04:14   it's over. It's over which is also just to make things more complicated I will

00:04:22   give you what it's like for me Thursday the 14th of July 2022 at 1 a.m. British

00:04:31   summertime. So Myke can you when you edit the show can you like put in like

00:04:35   called JavaScript or something in the podcast

00:04:37   that localizes that.

00:04:38   So whatever we say, it'll just come out in the time that...

00:04:42   Okay, good.

00:04:43   - That's easy to do.

00:04:44   - Right?

00:04:44   That's like the little JavaScript, little PHP.

00:04:46   - Dynamic time insertion.

00:04:48   - It's dangerous when I was listening

00:04:50   to a Reconcilable Differences episode over the weekend.

00:04:52   And it's dangerous when I do that,

00:04:54   because then I try to turn this show

00:04:56   into the nonsense of Reconcilable Difference.

00:04:59   Anyway, yeah.

00:05:00   - Oh, you've been...

00:05:01   - I feel like that, yeah,

00:05:03   I was driving us off the rails there.

00:05:04   Yeah, stick some JavaScript in there and localize that time to UTC, to Unix epoch time.

00:05:13   And then your podcast player of choice will then emulate our voices saying the proper

00:05:20   time.

00:05:21   I would just like to state for the record that you said that listening to Reconcileable

00:05:24   Differences has made you silly.

00:05:26   We spent 45 minutes doing Buzzfeed quizzes last week.

00:05:29   You were fine before listening to Reconcileable Differences.

00:05:33   - No, I think what you're saying is I was already kind of

00:05:37   messed up.

00:05:39   - You had this, you've got this on your own.

00:05:41   You don't need any inspiration from anyone else.

00:05:45   - Anyway, if you are a Unix computer,

00:05:47   buy a t-shirt for your computer frame.

00:05:50   Buy 16577-56800 in Unix epoch.

00:05:55   - Perfect, thank you so much.

00:06:00   - Helpful.

00:06:01   - If you enjoy this show and want more of it,

00:06:03   you should subscribe to Upgrade Plus because you will get bonus content every week and no ads

00:06:07   and special for relay FM members. We finally did it.

00:06:12   This year's RPG adventure crossover with the Cortex podcast is now available

00:06:18   for relay FM members in the crossover feed.

00:06:20   This is available for Upgrade Plus, but this is also available if you are a member of any show

00:06:25   here in relay FM, you get access to the crossover feed, which features

00:06:28   tons of bonus content from relay FM hosts.

00:06:31   We did it again. We continued on our story from last year.

00:06:34   You also get access to the whole history of that feed, so you can go back and listen to our previous RPG adventures if you want to.

00:06:40   And we had Tony come in, Tony Sindelar from the Total Party Kill podcast on the incomparable.

00:06:45   And Tony was our DM again as myself and Jason and Gray.

00:06:50   We went on a supply chain adventure.

00:06:53   We did, yeah. These are our characters from last time where we're in space.

00:06:59   I was gonna say futuristic, but I think the idea is that it's literally we are plucked from earth

00:07:03   and deposited in a wild space scenario. And in this case, a very simple need for the bar

00:07:11   that we were deposited in to replenish its supplies of like chicken fingers and fries and stuff

00:07:18   from the food, but the delivery hasn't arrived. So we just got to go get the stuff. And it goes

00:07:24   from there, I guess I would say. It goes from there. - I really love this one. So like,

00:07:28   I've always enjoyed these. Last year we kind of switched it up. So we were doing the text

00:07:31   adventures where Jason was at the end, but we wanted Jason to play with us. So we brought

00:07:37   in Tony, who's an experienced Dungeon Master, to craft an RPG. And Tony adapted a previous

00:07:41   story. But my understanding is this one, he basically created this story himself. And

00:07:47   I think it's fantastic. I think he did such a good job. We had so much fun. This was the

00:07:52   most fun I've had editing one of these in years. He did such a good job and it was really

00:07:59   great. It took a little longer, my Covid recovery slowed down the edit, but we got there and

00:08:05   I'm really happy with how it came out and I'm happy that we took the extra time on it

00:08:08   because it's really great. So you can get this for yourself by going to getupgradeplus.com

00:08:13   and you can sign up and you'll get access to Upgrade Plus and the crossover feed where

00:08:17   you'll find this RPG adventure.

00:08:20   But wait there's more. Jason Snell has joined MacBreakWeekly on Twitter.

00:08:24   It's true. It's true. I'm expanding what I said on Twitter is my goal is to eventually

00:08:28   you know have a podcast every day of the week and twice on Sundays or at least sometimes

00:08:33   it seems like that. Yeah so our friend-

00:08:36   So we say goodbye to Jason today.

00:08:37   Bye.

00:08:38   Bye Jason.

00:08:39   No. No. No. Our good friend Renee Ritchie who was at iMore and has been doing his own

00:08:49   and YouTube channel for a while.

00:08:51   He has apparently a new job that hasn't been announced yet.

00:08:55   People are thinking that it'll be with Apple.

00:08:57   I kind of think not, especially since he,

00:09:01   I think has said that he'll come back from time to time.

00:09:04   People who go to Apple don't come back from time to time.

00:09:06   They just go and they're gone.

00:09:07   - Well, they do, but under an official auspice.

00:09:10   - Yeah, I doubt that will happen.

00:09:12   Anyway, so we'll see.

00:09:13   I don't know, it's Renee's announcement to make

00:09:15   and I honestly, he hasn't said and I don't know.

00:09:17   but it required him to leave MacBreak Weekly

00:09:20   on the Twit network.

00:09:20   And I have been a guest on their shows,

00:09:23   especially the main Twit show, on and off for quite a while.

00:09:26   And I know those people and our friend,

00:09:29   Micah works up there.

00:09:31   And of course, Leo Laporte runs the whole thing

00:09:33   with his wife, Lisa.

00:09:34   And they're also local, they're in the North Bay.

00:09:37   They're not that far away from me.

00:09:39   And so they offered me Renee's slot essentially,

00:09:42   and I'm just kind of honored to be offered it.

00:09:45   And so, yes, you can see me leaning back,

00:09:48   not being the co-host or producer or anything,

00:09:52   but just being one of the panel,

00:09:54   just kind of fun, weekly on Tuesdays at Twit.

00:09:59   So I'm looking forward to giving that a start tomorrow.

00:10:04   - One of my very first podcasts that I would listen to

00:10:06   is My Break Weekly.

00:10:07   - Yeah, it's, people are asking,

00:10:12   first off, I don't think there's actually a lot of overlap.

00:10:14   They have a, every time I go on Twitter,

00:10:15   I'm surprised at how different their audience is

00:10:18   from our audience.

00:10:19   So that's interesting.

00:10:21   And like I said, I, the difference, somebody asked,

00:10:25   what's the difference between Upgrade and MacBreak Weekly?

00:10:27   Well, I mean, MacBreak Weekly,

00:10:30   the producers make the list of topics.

00:10:33   Leo runs the show and I will be one of three, you know,

00:10:37   panelists talking to Leo.

00:10:40   Upgrade is a collaborative process

00:10:41   where Myke and I make the show.

00:10:43   we talk about what we want.

00:10:45   This is like, this is my show and Myke's show

00:10:49   and Mac Break Weekly's Leo show that I will be on.

00:10:51   So it's a totally different thing.

00:10:54   The vibe is different.

00:10:55   It's all different.

00:10:55   So if you want to give it a try or if you listen to it,

00:10:58   you know, I'll be over there,

00:10:59   but it's not going to be the same as here.

00:11:02   And that's good.

00:11:03   I'll be providing my, you know,

00:11:05   whatever it is unique Jason perspective to whatever

00:11:08   they're talking about.

00:11:10   Sure.

00:11:11   Are we going to talk about, like, inserting JavaScript for a time code on a podcast over

00:11:15   on a Twit?

00:11:16   Probably not.

00:11:17   Probably not.

00:11:18   Who knows?

00:11:19   It's my guess.

00:11:20   Yeah, who knows?

00:11:21   It's a podcast.

00:11:22   Anything can happen.

00:11:23   By the way, though, if you do love tech panel shows, we have a great one here at Relay FM.

00:11:28   It's called Clockwise.

00:11:29   Jason was one of the original hosts of Clockwise.

00:11:32   It's now hosted by Dan Warren and Michael Sargent.

00:11:36   Michael is also on a bunch of Twit shows, too.

00:11:38   Yeah.

00:11:39   now which I think is nice. The most recent episode of Clockwise featured Flo who's on

00:11:45   material and Matthew Bischoff they were the guests they were talking about stuff like

00:11:49   online privacy, target advertising that kind of thing. Clockwise is never longer than 30

00:11:54   minutes so it's an easy one to add to your queue so go check it out.

00:11:57   Yeah check it out and I'm gonna be doing if you want even more of me again.

00:12:00   Oh my god.

00:12:01   I'm gonna I'm gonna be doing some fill-

00:12:03   Summer of Jason!

00:12:04   - Yeah, I'm gonna be doing some fill in hosting

00:12:07   as a favorite to Dan and Micah, I think starting next week.

00:12:10   So I'll be on a clockwise a lot this summer,

00:12:14   which is great because I demanded it

00:12:16   when I knew they needed to fill in

00:12:17   because it is near and dear to my heart.

00:12:20   Dan and I did create that show

00:12:21   and worked really hard on that format.

00:12:23   And I'm really proud that it continues to be a great show

00:12:26   because that, you know, it's just such a fun, unique format

00:12:30   and less than 30 minutes and you know it's all it's worth it it's worth it if you want

00:12:36   to kind of a sampler of different voices and different topics and not have another two

00:12:42   hour podcast dropping in your in your podcast app definitely check it out.

00:12:47   -Clockwise is the beneficiary of a unique feature in the Relay FM CMS which is the ability

00:12:53   to adjust who the hosts are on specific episodes as opposed to the entire show so if you go

00:13:00   back and look at the older episodes, Jason's there instead of Micah.

00:13:04   Yeah, that's true.

00:13:06   I have some follow up on the iPad and Universal Control.

00:13:09   So I've got a few little things on this.

00:13:12   So I think I mentioned this in the episode but I also had some people suggest to me like

00:13:16   using shortcuts to turn on low power mode as a way to lock the iPad.

00:13:20   But it's also for your status board.

00:13:23   For my status board.

00:13:24   For your iPad status board.

00:13:25   Yeah.

00:13:26   it does low power mode doesn't lock an iPad if universal control is enabled. So maybe

00:13:35   this would work after I leave the studio but it's not as reliable as I would want it to

00:13:40   be. I'm going to test it out more but I what I was hoping was somebody was going to write

00:13:45   in and say oh this is really easy way and shortcuts to turn like to turn an iPad on

00:13:50   and off the screen but there isn't. It's always going to be a hack. But to be honest I actually

00:13:55   think it's mostly okay. At the end of every day I unplug my MacBook Pro from the monitor

00:14:02   to put in my bag and so as part of my kind of like shutting down the studio procedure

00:14:06   now I just lock my iPad. It's not actually that much more complicated. But the thing

00:14:12   that I still might want to do though is try and set up a smart switch for the power situation

00:14:19   because I'm plugging and unplugging that iPad a lot and it's annoying me but I also don't

00:14:23   want to leave it continuously plugged in, like drawing power always. So I think I might

00:14:30   get a smart switch and just like kind of wire it up and just have it turn off in the evenings

00:14:35   and turn back on in the mornings. I think I might have that. I think I might set that

00:14:38   up anyway.

00:14:39   I don't know if it's if it's asleep. I don't think it's going to matter because it's only

00:14:42   going to draw power when it needs to and it will let its battery kind of drop down and

00:14:45   and yeah, I know I'm weird with this kind of stuff. All right, I'm weird with this stuff.

00:14:51   I leave my iPad plugged in overnight all the time.

00:14:53   - No, I do that.

00:14:54   Like I charge my phone or whatever,

00:14:56   but this would be like,

00:14:57   it would be plugged in 24/7, 365 days a year.

00:15:02   - Well, that's, yeah.

00:15:03   - And I don't need it to do that.

00:15:05   Like if I was away for a week,

00:15:08   I don't need that iPad to remain consistently charged.

00:15:11   So that just feels like a waste of electricity.

00:15:15   So I'm thinking I might just get,

00:15:17   I might get another one of those smarts,

00:15:19   like power strips that you can, I've spoke about these before.

00:15:22   I don't remember the name, but I'll put them in the show notes. Uh,

00:15:25   James Thompson, uh,

00:15:26   turned me onto this company where like they have a smart switch that you can

00:15:31   individually automate each of the switches in the smart

00:15:36   switch, like a, like a power strip so that you can have,

00:15:40   you can like break it up and it can be like four individually addressable

00:15:43   automatable, uh, sockets.

00:15:45   And so I might just get one of those and plug it into that. Uh,

00:15:48   I think I'm going to do that actually once I knew.

00:15:51   I knew, see here's the thing,

00:15:52   I knew if I stalled for long enough there,

00:15:55   James would tell me in the Discord

00:15:56   the name of the company.

00:15:57   - Real time.

00:15:58   - It's called Meross, M-E-R-O-S-S, Meross.

00:16:02   They make these products

00:16:03   and we've been using them at home for a long time

00:16:05   and I really liked them.

00:16:06   So I think we're going to get another one of these

00:16:08   'cause it does like native home kit.

00:16:10   Like you don't need to use an app and I like that, right?

00:16:14   Like I don't need to use the Meross app or Meross bridge.

00:16:16   it just works with HomeKit.

00:16:18   So I'm going to get myself one of these and set it up.

00:16:21   Uh, I will say over the past week, I have had better reliability of universal

00:16:26   control. It's been reconnecting more frequently, but not all the time.

00:16:29   And sometimes just disconnects whenever it wants to.

00:16:32   Uh, so, but many upgradians wrote in to tell me that they have a flawless

00:16:37   experience, which leads me to believe that it is the beta, like me running

00:16:40   the iPadOS beta is making it odd, which I did expect, right?

00:16:43   But, uh, I was happy to get that feedback.

00:16:46   I also had a bunch of upgrade-ins write in to tell me about the Logitech Logitech Options

00:16:52   Plus app from Logitech.

00:16:54   It's a beta that they've got running right now specifically to address issues with Universal

00:17:00   Control and it's odd.

00:17:02   You have to have Logitech's Logitech Options app already installed and then you install

00:17:07   this which I think is kind of like a plug-in for that app but it makes the scrolling work

00:17:13   with my Logitech mouse in Universal Control.

00:17:16   So it's doing something to just get all of that together.

00:17:19   I don't know how it's doing it, but I'm happy to have it because I now can scroll whenever

00:17:24   I want to.

00:17:27   And finally the MacBook Air is available for sale.

00:17:31   It went on sale at the end of the week.

00:17:34   As expected availability got very thin very quickly.

00:17:39   Basically what it seems like almost immediately and now is that if you want anything other

00:17:43   than one of the base configurations, you want to, if you change anything, you're into August

00:17:48   before one of these things will come to you. You ordered one, right?

00:17:51   I did. It's the same thing. Yeah, I, uh, let's see, for the record, midnight, 16 gigs of

00:17:58   RAM, 512 SSD, and first week of August. Yeah. That's what it kind of seems like. I think

00:18:06   they made a lot of standard configurations, right? Which they probably know that they

00:18:10   They sell a lot of base model configurations.

00:18:12   So they made a lot of those, so there's more availability of those.

00:18:16   And then everything else, I'm not even sure this is a traditional sort of like, "Oh, whoop,

00:18:20   just like that.

00:18:21   They're sold out."

00:18:22   I feel like it was more they had a...

00:18:26   I don't think things necessarily slipped much to get to August or late July.

00:18:29   I think it was more like you could either get a stock one this week, or you could wait

00:18:35   for one of those configured order models because those were going to take a little bit longer.

00:18:39   longer. Yeah. But yeah, so definitely if you want to get your hands on one like Friday,

00:18:47   stock configurations at an Apple store maybe. Yeah, I mean that might be the thing, right?

00:18:52   As you said, they could sometimes even Apple have in store some basic upgrades like you

00:18:59   might be able to get one with a little bit more RAM from a store but that's on the usual

00:19:04   times and right now it doesn't seem like stock is a usual thing, right? It's all it's all

00:19:09   weird right now.

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00:21:06   for their support of Upgrade and Relay FM. So we're up to Beta 3 now and I think that

00:21:14   we've both had some changes on our devices in the sense of what we're running the betas

00:21:20   on. So I think it might be time for a bit of a check-in. Where have you got betas going

00:21:25   right now?

00:21:26   >> A little beta update.

00:21:27   >> Beta update.

00:21:28   - I took the plunge and installed the Beta 3 of iPadOS

00:21:33   on my personal iPad Pro,

00:21:38   which, you know, it's a little scary.

00:21:44   There's an annoying bug.

00:21:49   I use my iPad so much and there's a bug.

00:21:54   I mean, it's a Beta, there are bugs,

00:21:57   but the one that really annoys me

00:21:58   is there's a software keyboard bug where a lot,

00:22:01   frequently apps basically lose track

00:22:04   of where the top of the software keyboard is.

00:22:06   And so the text entry field is below the top

00:22:09   of the software keyboard, so you can't see it.

00:22:11   - Yeah. - And the only solution

00:22:12   is to quit the app and relaunch it,

00:22:15   and then you can see it, and then it gets bad again

00:22:18   and you have to do it again.

00:22:19   And that's just a thing that's in there and it's annoying,

00:22:22   but I can live with it.

00:22:23   I did this all right before I went away for a long weekend.

00:22:27   And so I haven't spent time with it in a smart keyboard

00:22:31   or a magic keyboard or in monitor external display mode.

00:22:36   So I can't talk about the stage manager

00:22:42   from that perspective, right?

00:22:44   I'm not convinced stage manager is the right approach

00:22:48   when you're just holding an iPad in your hand, right?

00:22:51   Like I'm not sure in most cases,

00:22:53   at least the way I use my iPad,

00:22:55   that I need Stage Manager when I'm just holding my iPad

00:22:58   in my hands, using my fingers to touch it.

00:23:01   Like, eh, I don't know, not entirely convinced.

00:23:04   Maybe there are scenarios, but a lot less so

00:23:07   than if I'm in a keyboard-based scenario,

00:23:10   keyboard and pointer-based scenario.

00:23:11   So I've got to, I mostly used it even over the weekend

00:23:14   with Stage Manager turned off, but I am looking forward to,

00:23:17   now that it's on my, you know, my, my iPad Pro,

00:23:21   spending some time with it in the Magic Keyboard

00:23:23   or attached to the studio display.

00:23:26   - So in developer beta three,

00:23:28   there was some new stuff that came to stage manager.

00:23:31   And I was playing with some of that

00:23:34   'cause I have it on my iPad air, right?

00:23:36   The one that I'm using for my status board.

00:23:38   So the multitasking menu, that little pill thing,

00:23:42   it got some new, it's kind of presented differently now.

00:23:46   It used to just be like three little icons.

00:23:48   Now they have text labels, which I think is a good move.

00:23:50   And there's also a close button,

00:23:52   the fourth close button now. So you can minimize and you can close. Realistically I feel like

00:23:58   on iPad OS there isn't a difference. Like I can't really work out what the difference

00:24:03   is, but I guess maybe it returns to the little tray on the left if you minimize. But happily,

00:24:09   as I know you wanted, Command+W now closes Windows. Which is fantastic. They have a better

00:24:17   presentation for multiple windows, in fact there's one that works, if you had like a

00:24:22   one to select between multiple windows you'd go into that like I don't know like kind of

00:24:26   like an expose kind of mode. It didn't work on previous betas, they fixed that. Full screen

00:24:33   apps and iPhone apps now work better in stage manager. So previously if you had an app that

00:24:38   kind of couldn't be resized, you couldn't put any other windows in that kind of space

00:24:43   with it in that stage with it you can do that now it kind of just they overlap

00:24:48   and you can run iPhone apps in there you know you can't resize them but you can

00:24:53   have a bunch of iPhone apps on screen so you finally iPhone apps are useful on

00:24:58   the iPad because you could have say an iPhone app and a iPad app in the same

00:25:04   stage where up until now if you wanted to use an iPhone app it was just this

00:25:08   this huge disgusting thing on the screen.

00:25:11   So that's really cool I think.

00:25:13   - Yeah, I used this with some iPhone apps over the weekend.

00:25:17   And what I found is that I couldn't consistently see

00:25:22   the window control thing, which is kind of necessary.

00:25:27   So, you know, being able to grab it and minimize it

00:25:32   or close it or whatever, I had some iPhone apps

00:25:34   where it was sort of like just a floating thing, right?

00:25:38   With no controls on it at all.

00:25:40   But this is the idea.

00:25:42   I wonder if this is like literally part

00:25:44   of the Mark Gurman report from whatever two years ago

00:25:47   that eventually, you know, you'd be able to roll.

00:25:50   I guess I was on the Mac, right?

00:25:51   You'd be able to run iPhone apps on the Mac.

00:25:53   This seems a little like that though, where it's like,

00:25:56   yeah, we have a context now where anything can be

00:25:59   on your iPad.

00:26:00   Why would we not let those iPhone apps run

00:26:02   in the little iPhone shaped window

00:26:06   with other stuff going on.

00:26:07   In fact, last year I did a mock-up,

00:26:09   I think it was last year, maybe it was the year before,

00:26:11   of what an iMac on an, sorry,

00:26:13   an iPad on an external display would look like,

00:26:17   5K external display.

00:26:18   And that was one of the things I did was like,

00:26:20   let's take an iPhone app and have it be like

00:26:22   just a little window on the screen and look great.

00:26:25   And it looked exactly like this, which is, yeah.

00:26:28   I mean, ideally you'd like to be able to resize them

00:26:31   and that requires it to be more iPad-y,

00:26:33   but it's nice to not have to open an iPad.

00:26:36   It's the worst to open an iPhone app on the iPad.

00:26:39   Some of them don't even do rotation.

00:26:41   So if you're holding it horizontal,

00:26:43   you launch the iPhone app and it's vertical

00:26:45   and you're like, oh, I guess I'm gonna turn my iPad now.

00:26:48   And even if you just wanna get out of it,

00:26:50   you can't flip up from the bottom

00:26:53   once it's in that orientation.

00:26:55   'Cause once it's in vertical,

00:26:56   you have to turn it and flip up from the bottom

00:26:59   or flip up from the side.

00:27:01   it's weird. Anyway, so this is this is progress.

00:27:05   I still wish that tapping the blank space behind the applications would take

00:27:11   me to the home screen. I know that you can do this on the Mac, right? If you

00:27:15   click it shows you the desktop. I wished it would do this. They just added in Beta

00:27:20   3 on Mac OS with Stage Manager the ability to just show the desktop. Like

00:27:25   your actual desktop. All the time. It just stays back there. It doesn't hide the

00:27:29   desktop and I didn't realize how disconcerting it was for my desktop to

00:27:32   be gone. I flipped that feature on I was like oh and then you can just like drag

00:27:37   things open for the desktop and it's not it doesn't get weird about it so I think

00:27:40   they're they're making some progress on the Mac front too but I agree with you

00:27:44   it's a little weird that you can't just use that as a shortcut. Especially when

00:27:48   they insist on there being that kind of space there right they insist on showing

00:27:54   me this blurred image. So if it's always there, make it useful. I think they will do this

00:28:01   because the Mac does it, but I think it's just like a case of priorities. I will say,

00:28:06   I think personally, we're up to Beta 3 now, developer Beta 3. It's not on any non-M1 iPad.

00:28:14   I think that ship has sailed.

00:28:15   Yeah, I think they, you know, the people who are upset about it are upset about it, but...

00:28:22   It's kind of blown over mostly now and you know I'm sure people were annoyed

00:28:26   about it but like the news cycles moved on right they have not released a

00:28:30   statement nor if they changed it so I think this is it and I mean I'm

00:28:36   personally I don't have a problem with it I just want because stage managers

00:28:40   continuing to get better right and so I don't want stage manager as a feature to

00:28:46   have a bad launch because they have to like kind of put it in handcuffs so it

00:28:51   can run on different hardware. That's where I come from anyway. I have the iOS beta on

00:28:56   my iPhone and I've been playing around with that a bunch. I put beta 2 on but now I'm

00:29:02   running beta 3 as well. I've been really happy with the lock screen stuff. I think I've been

00:29:09   able to get my lock screen looking really good and really stylish I think. You know

00:29:14   it changing the font. I'm using what do they call it? It's not SF, the New York font. Is

00:29:22   that what it's called? They have that like they have a serif font. Apple has a serif

00:29:28   font. So it's not San Francisco. I think it's called New York. Am I? Have I lost my mind?

00:29:36   They have a new font. Yeah, New York, right? It's called New York. Yeah. So I'm using the,

00:29:40   I think it's the New York font, which is like it's a little bit more like, I don't know,

00:29:45   cool in a way.

00:29:46   Like so I've been using that as the time.

00:29:48   I think that's the time option is what it looks like anyway.

00:29:50   And you know, I have a new image, which I think looks nicer, like with the whole layout

00:29:55   that I've got.

00:29:56   And I'm running a few widgets.

00:29:57   I've got like a calendar widget, an activity widget, and a widget of a beta app that I'm

00:30:02   testing.

00:30:04   I really like it.

00:30:05   I also think just in general, the way that they present options is so good. I think you

00:30:12   can tell that they learn from watchOS and they kind of push that forward. When you go

00:30:18   into that screen and you want to add a new lock screen, because of design, they have

00:30:23   so many options. They have all these fun ones that they've made. They take images of yours

00:30:28   and show you how good it could look. I think they've done a really good job with that whole

00:30:32   kind of like setup screen. And just the widgets in general, the lock screen widgets, I'm really

00:30:39   excited for more and more of these to come into it when it's released because I think

00:30:44   it's going to be pretty great. Like at the moment, oh, I also have the calendar and I

00:30:51   have weather. The calendar is the one that's on the top. Like, you know, you got that one

00:30:54   above the time. It's just text, which is like perfect for a calendar, right? Like what's

00:30:58   my next meeting.

00:30:59   There were a couple of other features that I've enjoyed.

00:31:06   I have actually come to really like the way the notifications are laid out now, kind of

00:31:10   coming down from the bottom.

00:31:11   I feel like it takes up way less screen real estate at most of the time, which I actually

00:31:16   think is better, like show me fewer notifications until I want to see more of them.

00:31:22   I've been trying out that dictation feature within Messages mostly, you know how now their

00:31:27   whole thing is you can just dictate and type at the same time. You can say something and

00:31:32   it works really well. I would say my experience of punctuation, the automatic punctuation

00:31:38   hasn't been that great. There's been times where I've expected it to put punctuation

00:31:43   in and it hasn't been, but now it's so much easier to manually edit without needing to

00:31:49   leave the dictation mode. So you can just leave the dictation going, go in and fix something,

00:31:55   go back and then just start speaking again.

00:31:56   So I think the fact that it's no longer like a modal thing,

00:32:00   you're either dictating or not, I

00:32:03   could see myself using it more because I

00:32:05   think that they've done a really good job of it.

00:32:08   Messages editing is awesome.

00:32:11   And the new way to set up focus modes--

00:32:13   I created a new focus mode because it's so easy

00:32:16   to do it now.

00:32:17   They've really refined that process

00:32:19   and have made it much better.

00:32:21   And I think I've made focus mode more useful now

00:32:24   that you can, instead of saying,

00:32:26   only let these things bug me,

00:32:28   just like everything can bug me except these things.

00:32:31   I think that makes way more sense for like a work focus mode

00:32:34   and like a personal focus mode.

00:32:36   'Cause in personal focus modes, most people are just like,

00:32:39   I just don't wanna hear from Slack over the weekend.

00:32:41   And so just having that as an option of like,

00:32:45   everything can remind me except Slack

00:32:47   and say like Outlook and my calendar

00:32:49   'cause I'm in weekend mode.

00:32:50   So I think that's nice.

00:32:53   - That's great.

00:32:54   I'm looking forward to playing with it more.

00:32:56   And like you said, widgets,

00:33:00   like third-party widgets to add more

00:33:02   'cause the Apple ones are nice, but they're pretty generic.

00:33:05   I'm looking forward to doing that.

00:33:06   - It was the same with iOS 14, right?

00:33:07   It was like, we could get an idea

00:33:09   for what it might look like using Apples,

00:33:11   but really you want the widgets for the apps you're using.

00:33:15   - Right.

00:33:16   And I think that your point is really good

00:33:20   that the Apple Watch was a good kind of test bed

00:33:24   for this kind of stuff and that they learned

00:33:26   and having much more screen space on the iPhone

00:33:30   to give people all of those different options

00:33:32   and sort of, what a nice way to walk people through features

00:33:37   by providing them with variations that use the features,

00:33:42   right, 'cause then you can just do it yourself

00:33:45   if you want to, but Apple's gonna provide you

00:33:47   with this big palette of options.

00:33:49   They choose featured photos that you might want to use.

00:33:53   Like they're doing a lot to try and not just steer you,

00:33:56   but also teach you sort of like,

00:34:00   rather than saying,

00:34:01   "Here are a bunch of settings, good luck."

00:34:02   They're like,

00:34:03   "Here's all these different ways these settings can be used

00:34:06   or customize it yourself for good luck."

00:34:07   Which is, I think it's a better approach.

00:34:09   - And if you want to see like an example of, you know,

00:34:15   like we talk about like Apple whimsy design and stuff,

00:34:18   They have a selection of weather and astronomy lock screens and you can kind of choose them

00:34:27   and you can scroll through them.

00:34:30   You can set up one of the earth, one of the earth detail where it zooms in.

00:34:35   When you swipe through them they do a completely unnecessary but really beautiful animation

00:34:43   of zooming in and out.

00:34:45   That is stunning and is really I think only important for if you're in that mode of choosing

00:34:51   between which one you want and it's super great.

00:34:56   This is a fun screen to play around in because they change it up.

00:34:59   I just got recommended to me.

00:35:02   This is like I saw this going around on Twitter a lot.

00:35:04   The clown fish wallpaper that they created for the original iPhone.

00:35:10   Sometimes it pops up as like, "Hey, do you want this one?"

00:35:13   So I just added it as one of my options because you can have multiple lock screens and you

00:35:17   can choose between them and choose like, do you want a different like home screen to go

00:35:22   with that lock screen.

00:35:23   It's really cool.

00:35:24   I love this feature.

00:35:25   I think this is going to be really nice.

00:35:26   Well, I did put Ventura on, I actually used the review unit 13 inch M2 MacBook Pro that

00:35:34   Apple sent me because I wrote that review.

00:35:37   So it had to be sacrificed for the cause.

00:35:41   So I put Ventura beta on there.

00:35:42   I spent some time with continuity camera

00:35:44   'cause really stage manager and continuity camera

00:35:47   are kind of the two big Mac features I would argue

00:35:49   that are kind of uniquely Mac.

00:35:53   I know that there's stage manager and iPad,

00:35:55   but stage manager and iPad and Mac are, they're different.

00:35:59   The way that they work is different.

00:36:01   And continuity camera is technically kind of an iOS feature

00:36:06   because most of the intelligence is happening on your iPhone,

00:36:10   but it's a Mac feature, right?

00:36:11   It's for the Mac, that's the point.

00:36:13   I'm really impressed with Continuity Camera.

00:36:15   It is working really well.

00:36:17   That standard iPhone camera,

00:36:20   which is remember what Apple calls the wide camera,

00:36:23   but it's the standard camera that you use.

00:36:26   It looks really good even in bad light.

00:36:28   I was sitting in my bedroom with the light off

00:36:32   in the late afternoon and the light from outside

00:36:35   is coming in a little bit.

00:36:36   And it looked so much better on that standard iPhone camera

00:36:41   than it did on either the webcam that was on the 720p webcam

00:36:46   on the 13 inch M2 MacBook Pro, don't get me started,

00:36:49   or actually the view in center stage,

00:36:52   because remember center stage is a feature

00:36:55   of continuity camera, but it uses the ultra wide,

00:36:58   the 12 megapixel ultra wide on the iPhone,

00:37:00   not the standard because it wants to be able to have room

00:37:03   to move, pan and zoom and basically move around.

00:37:06   And you will not be surprised to know

00:37:08   when you take a 12 megapixel ultra wide image and then crop it in order to do panning and zooming

00:37:14   in bad light situations, it gets kind of grainy and doesn't look that great. I would say it still

00:37:20   looks better than the 720p webcam. Not a high bar, but it still looks better than that, but not a lot

00:37:26   better. So this is an interesting, just a note about center stage in general, right? Which is,

00:37:33   if you want the best image quality and you want especially performance in low light situations,

00:37:40   not using center stage is a good idea because center stage is just going to be it's kind of

00:37:46   an inferior camera and then it's a crop of and a distortion and crop of an inferior camera and it's

00:37:53   always going to look inferior compared to in this case the standard iPhone camera which is beautiful.

00:37:59   It really is.

00:38:00   It looks great.

00:38:01   In continuity camera mode, you can choose which camera you want?

00:38:06   Is that right?

00:38:07   So the way continuity camera works is if you are not using centre stage, it uses the wide

00:38:13   camera.

00:38:14   The good camera.

00:38:15   Which of course is something that like the Studio Display can't do.

00:38:19   It won't crop but it's still got a not great camera, right?

00:38:22   Well yeah, it's still got that same camera although at least it's, I mean, and it's not

00:38:27   not cropped, it's just cropped wider and it doesn't move, right?

00:38:32   Because the ultra wide is super wide and an uncropped view of the camera in the studio

00:38:36   display would be super weird because just like if you take your iPhone and go into the

00:38:41   ultra wide and then zoom out, it gets all strangely distorted because it's a wide angle

00:38:46   lens, right?

00:38:47   It's an ultra wide lens.

00:38:48   So on continuity camera, they are making the decision that unless you want center stage,

00:38:54   they're gonna use the regular camera

00:38:57   'cause it's way better.

00:38:58   And so they'll do that.

00:39:00   And then, yeah, you can add that studio lighting effect

00:39:04   if you want, which, you know, it helps.

00:39:06   It finds your face in the foreground and lightens it up

00:39:09   and darkens the background.

00:39:11   And you can use the blurring stuff.

00:39:13   And again, it's portrait mode, basically.

00:39:15   It's using all this tech that had already had built,

00:39:17   Apple had already built for other products.

00:39:20   And that all looks fine.

00:39:22   So you can do that.

00:39:23   the new document, your desk view thing that they do

00:39:28   has to use the ultra wide,

00:39:31   because it's trying to see the edges,

00:39:34   the peripheral edges of what it can see.

00:39:37   And the ultra wide can see kind of everything.

00:39:39   And so, the image quality isn't great,

00:39:43   but that's sort of not the point of the desk view thing.

00:39:45   It's more just to get a quick and dirty view

00:39:49   down onto your desktop in front of your laptop

00:39:52   or beneath your display.

00:39:53   and it does do that.

00:39:54   But the actual standard iPhone camera

00:40:00   looks exactly as you might expect.

00:40:03   And if you've ever used something like Camo,

00:40:05   you've seen this, like the iPhone camera is really good.

00:40:07   Using it as a webcam is really good.

00:40:09   The difference here is that you don't have to launch an app

00:40:14   and launch an app on the Mac and an app on your iPhone

00:40:18   in order to do it.

00:40:19   It just does it, it just happens.

00:40:21   And in fact, if you place the iPhone,

00:40:24   like mount it on your screen or behind your screen

00:40:27   and it's horizontal to the desk and it's still,

00:40:32   macOS Ventura will just auto switch to it.

00:40:36   'Cause it knows it's using the iPhone sensors

00:40:39   to know that the iPhone is now in a state

00:40:42   where it's probably mounted as a webcam

00:40:44   and then it'll just flip over.

00:40:46   You can use it without mounting it as a webcam.

00:40:48   - I still don't know what I think about that.

00:40:50   I still can't get my head around that,

00:40:53   like the default swapping to the, I don't know.

00:40:58   I'm still, I feel like I need to see that myself.

00:41:01   - There's an API and you don't have to use it, right?

00:41:04   You can select your camera.

00:41:05   It's like having a default audio output or input.

00:41:09   It's kind of like that, but yeah,

00:41:10   we'll have to see how that goes.

00:41:12   Because I mean, obviously if you lay it,

00:41:14   if you put it upright on a desk,

00:41:17   it will also switch over and it's not pointing at you.

00:41:19   if you try to emulate those same conditions.

00:41:21   But I think their thought is,

00:41:23   when are you gonna have your iPhone horizontal

00:41:25   and not moving around?

00:41:27   And if you hold it in your hand, it's not the same.

00:41:29   It knows that it's being held by a human.

00:41:32   It's actually using those sensors

00:41:34   to really detect that it's been mounted.

00:41:37   So more to come on this, obviously,

00:41:39   and I think that the story changes

00:41:41   when you put an iPhone in a mount,

00:41:43   like that Belkin mount that was sort of pre-announced

00:41:46   on a laptop and then, you know,

00:41:49   what about a mount for a bigger display?

00:41:53   There's more to come here, but it does,

00:41:57   unsurprisingly, it looks really good on that standard camera.

00:42:00   And also, I would say unsurprisingly,

00:42:02   when you go into center stage mode,

00:42:04   it looks like center stage.

00:42:05   And that means it's gonna be a worse performance

00:42:10   in low light, especially,

00:42:12   but you get the cool panning and scanning thing,

00:42:14   which is great if that matters to you.

00:42:17   - Did you say if you did this wired or wireless?

00:42:20   - I did this wireless, but it does work either way.

00:42:25   - But it looks good wireless?

00:42:27   - Yeah.

00:42:28   - Cool, 'cause that's what I would wanna do.

00:42:29   If I was gonna use this feature,

00:42:31   I would want it to be wireless,

00:42:32   otherwise I'd just get a webcam.

00:42:34   - I think the real issue is if you use it

00:42:37   for a long amount of time,

00:42:38   you probably want it wired mostly just to power the iPhone

00:42:41   so that it doesn't drain the battery on it.

00:42:43   an hour of video is gonna kill the battery, you know?

00:42:46   - Well, I don't know,

00:42:48   because the screen's not gonna be on, right?

00:42:50   So maybe not. - Good point, good point.

00:42:52   - Camo, the screen is on.

00:42:54   On this, I don't think the screen is on.

00:42:56   So I don't know, we'll have to test it out and see.

00:43:00   But yeah, you can do either.

00:43:01   And I think that's great, because I think the idea here is,

00:43:04   oh, I'm gonna be on a meeting, I'm gonna pop this thing on,

00:43:07   and now I've got this great webcam,

00:43:09   and then when the meeting's over,

00:43:10   I'll just take it right back off.

00:43:11   I don't want to be like, like, dripping a cable down like, you know what I mean?

00:43:16   Like every time, if I was going to do that, I would just put a webcam on the

00:43:21   top here and just do it once.

00:43:22   Um, basically I'm intrigued about this feature because the studio displays

00:43:29   camera fails me so poorly.

00:43:31   Like it's, as I said before, I mentioned it many times, it's not the quality for

00:43:35   me, it's the fact that it cannot handle overhead lighting, uh, at the refresh

00:43:41   rate of the overhead lighting that I have here, even though all of my Macs can.

00:43:45   All my Macs can adjust to it, but the Studio Display can't.

00:43:48   And so I frequently, I'm sitting at my desk and then I need to go on a video call so I

00:43:53   have to come and start up everything in the podcast gear set that I have here.

00:43:58   Because the iMacs will handle it, but the Studio Display won't.

00:44:02   So I love the idea of being able to just get a little thing, pop my iPhone in, and then

00:44:07   and use it, you know, rather than needing to then go

00:44:10   and like change all my gear around and stuff.

00:44:12   - I wanted to mention the settings app just because,

00:44:16   I mean, it's beta, I hope it changes, I hope it changes.

00:44:19   It's not good.

00:44:20   Like they said, oh, let's make a settings app like iOS,

00:44:23   but it's not as a Mac settings app,

00:44:25   as a replacement for system preferences,

00:44:26   which is old and needed to be replaced, right?

00:44:29   But it's just, it's very bad.

00:44:32   I hope they fix it, I hope they make it better.

00:44:34   There's a lot of like clicking to get through

00:44:37   to another layer and having to go hierarchically down,

00:44:40   which is not even ideal on iOS, honestly,

00:44:43   but on the Mac, when you've got,

00:44:44   especially when I'm on a big Mac display,

00:44:49   but even on a laptop, these are widescreen laptops,

00:44:52   and the app is sort of square still or tall,

00:44:57   instead of taking advantage of the width

00:44:59   to lay things out that way.

00:45:01   I don't know what they're thinking.

00:45:03   there are so many frustrations

00:45:06   with the current system preferences thing

00:45:08   in terms of like approving apps

00:45:10   for like this app would like full disk access.

00:45:14   And the settings app, like those settings are like

00:45:18   a hierarchical two levels down and in

00:45:21   and then approve and then out.

00:45:23   Like it's not, it seems, it's just a, it's a mess.

00:45:28   So I hope there's no way this is made in like

00:45:31   catalyst or Swift UI, right?

00:45:33   - Like is the settings out, they surely have not done that.

00:45:35   - I don't know, maybe they have.

00:45:37   Maybe it is a Swift UI or something.

00:45:39   I think, like I get the idea that we want it

00:45:42   to be reminiscent of iOS, but the Mac has more

00:45:45   fiddly settings even than iOS does.

00:45:47   And if you're going to, like, look,

00:45:50   I know different people use different settings

00:45:52   in different ways. - Wow, Zach in the Discord

00:45:54   is saying it is Swift UI.

00:45:55   - Swift UI, I mean, it feels like it's Swift UI.

00:45:58   - But that's bold of everything to do next, you know?

00:46:02   - Yeah. - Wow, okay.

00:46:04   - So it feels, well, it's the, it's the, it's, you know,

00:46:06   if you're building a new app, like system settings,

00:46:08   then you should build it in Swift UI, right?

00:46:10   So it's a mess and, and it should,

00:46:14   I feel like it's not taking advantage of things

00:46:15   about the Mac and I get you want it to be of a kind with iOS,

00:46:19   but the Mac is different.

00:46:20   And what I was saying is different people use it differently

00:46:23   and I get that, but like, especially in beta time,

00:46:27   I'm restarting into a different startup disk all the time.

00:46:32   Like startup disk isn't at the top anymore.

00:46:35   You can search for it, or you have to go into,

00:46:37   I think general and then click startup disk

00:46:40   and then select your startup disk and restart.

00:46:43   It's like, why is it like that?

00:46:45   Why have you buried a lot of, for some people, common,

00:46:50   and it's not like you can favorite them

00:46:52   or bring them out to the top or star them in some way.

00:46:55   Right, like you can't, it's, so anyway, we got the summer,

00:47:01   maybe they will do more.

00:47:03   But my initial feedback on the settings app on the Mac

00:47:07   is that they have managed to do something

00:47:09   I didn't think they could do,

00:47:11   which is replace the old outdated,

00:47:16   desperately needed to be replaced system preferences app

00:47:20   and made it worse.

00:47:22   I don't know how that's even possible,

00:47:24   but as of beta three, that's where we are,

00:47:28   is that it's a complete...

00:47:30   I'm not one of those people who says,

00:47:33   go back to the old way and old system preferences is bad.

00:47:36   It's bad, but like it's better than this.

00:47:39   It's better than this.

00:47:41   This is terrible.

00:47:42   So good luck.

00:47:45   I mean, I'm crossing my fingers for every Mac user

00:47:49   that the people inside Apple

00:47:50   who are working on the settings app understand

00:47:53   that they had to ship it because it was beta time.

00:47:55   And they know that there are lots of things wrong with it.

00:47:57   And they are going to try to fix them all

00:47:59   by the end of the summer.

00:48:00   I hope that's the case,

00:48:02   because if this thing ships anything resembling

00:48:04   what it is now, it's an embarrassment.

00:48:06   So there it is.

00:48:08   There's my, again, beta, beta.

00:48:10   I get that it's beta,

00:48:12   but this is also the time where people,

00:48:13   like with Safari last year,

00:48:15   this is the time where people have to raise their hand

00:48:16   and say, "You didn't do it right."

00:48:19   And they didn't do this right.

00:48:20   It's a mess.

00:48:21   And it's not because it's different.

00:48:23   It's because it's bad,

00:48:25   because it doesn't do what a settings app

00:48:29   is supposed to do, which is make it easy for users

00:48:33   to change their settings instead of, I mean, yeah,

00:48:37   at least you can search for startup disk.

00:48:39   At least you can search for it if you need to.

00:48:41   - That doesn't sound good.

00:48:44   At least the Mac sometimes usually takes

00:48:47   a little bit longer, right?

00:48:48   They give it a little bit more time.

00:48:50   So there might be more time to work on it.

00:48:52   - And this is a Mac only feature essentially.

00:48:54   So there's probably a group that's focused on it

00:48:57   because they're not trying to build something

00:48:59   that goes across all the OSs.

00:49:01   They're building this thing for the Mac.

00:49:03   And when I criticize stuff, I always hear like,

00:49:07   oh, but then, you know, I know there are people

00:49:09   who are working on this who are working very hard.

00:49:11   And in fact, I would bet you that there are people

00:49:14   who are working on this app who know it isn't very good,

00:49:16   but they've been told to do it and it's their job.

00:49:19   But whoever makes the decisions

00:49:21   about the settings app on the Mac needs to,

00:49:25   if they don't know already, they need to be told

00:49:29   it's not getting it done.

00:49:31   - Yeah, what I've kind of felt like with SwiftUI personally

00:49:36   and also from talking to smart developers that I know,

00:49:40   is like SwiftUI is really good for building new things.

00:49:44   It gets complicated when you wanna replace

00:49:47   an existing thing with SwiftUI currently, right?

00:49:50   Because it's just different.

00:49:52   And I'm just surprised that they decided to tackle one of the fiddliest bits of Mac OS

00:50:02   now in SwiftUI.

00:50:05   That is just a surprise to me.

00:50:07   I could see that it looked like the iPhone, but they've done that for years, right?

00:50:13   Like things that look like their iOS, but they're built with AppKit and UIKit and traditional

00:50:19   Mac OS stuff.

00:50:21   It's just a surprise to me that something as fiddly and particular as System Preferences

00:50:27   was rebuilt using a more new modern technology that ConsenSys says still needs a little bit

00:50:35   more work.

00:50:36   Yeah, I'm not convinced that something like the Settings app...

00:50:41   I mean, if you can't build the Settings app with SwiftUI, then we're really in trouble

00:50:45   here.

00:50:46   I feel like the Settings app is pretty straightforward.

00:50:48   Maybe not.

00:50:49   the settings app is one of our more complicated apps,

00:50:51   it doesn't feel like it.

00:50:52   It feels like it's pretty simple.

00:50:54   So I'm not convinced that laying,

00:50:56   how should I phrase this?

00:50:59   I don't think we should lay the blame for this on SwiftUI.

00:51:03   I think the settings app on the Mac is bad

00:51:06   because it was conceived as using the metaphors from iOS

00:51:10   and that's a very hierarchical metaphor

00:51:13   and they're not using the screen orientation

00:51:16   of the Mac properly and they decided to make it

00:51:18   a single pane that scrolls instead of something

00:51:20   a little more complex.

00:51:21   Maybe that's a Swift UI thing.

00:51:22   Maybe there's some Swift UI issues going on there.

00:51:25   It feels to me, and I don't know the truth,

00:51:29   but all I can say is what it feels like to me.

00:51:31   It feels to me that rather than somebody sitting down

00:51:33   and saying, "What do we want a modern settings app

00:51:36   on the Mac to be?"

00:51:37   Somebody said, "Here, this is what settings is like

00:51:41   on iOS and iPadOS.

00:51:44   Do the Mac version of this."

00:51:46   And that's the wrong choice.

00:51:47   It's the wrong choice.

00:51:48   Having them feel like they're part of the family

00:51:50   because people are using all these devices

00:51:53   and having them feel similar, I get it.

00:51:55   But what's on the Mac now doesn't feel like

00:51:58   it makes sense for the Mac at all.

00:51:59   It feels like it's being forced into an iOS frame

00:52:04   that doesn't fit and there's no point in it being like that.

00:52:07   This is the Mac settings app.

00:52:09   I don't understand at all.

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00:54:18   Breaking news, Myke, breaking news. As was anticipated when we started recording this

00:54:23   episode, as we are recording now, the public betas for all of Apple's OS's are rolling

00:54:28   out and consider our previous segment, our public beta segment that we didn't want to

00:54:35   say because we weren't sure.

00:54:36   What a surprise.

00:54:37   We weren't sure whether, well, Apple rolls, sometimes Apple says, "We're going to roll."

00:54:42   "Pst, pst, we're gonna roll out the public betas on Monday."

00:54:45   And then you get to Monday and they're like,

00:54:48   "No, no, no, no, not yet, no."

00:54:52   - "Please don't talk about it."

00:54:53   - "Maybe tomorrow, we'll let you know, we don't know yet."

00:54:55   That has happened, right?

00:54:56   We are ready to push the button and they're like,

00:54:58   it's not like the hardware stuff where they're like,

00:55:01   "Okay, okay, you're gonna, at 6 a.m. post the story."

00:55:05   With the betas it's like, "We'll let you know."

00:55:07   'Cause they have to be like on the CDN

00:55:08   and then they say that they're out at 10 a.m.

00:55:10   but some people don't see them.

00:55:11   I don't see them yet, you may have to wait.

00:55:14   But I've been told, I have, on good authority,

00:55:17   that the public betas are rolling out as we record this,

00:55:19   and therefore please, again, consider our coverage

00:55:22   of the developer betas in the previous segment.

00:55:25   That was really our public beta conversation.

00:55:28   And you can go read my story about the macOS public beta

00:55:30   and Dan Morin's story about the iOS public beta

00:55:33   at Six Colors, we were working on those over the weekend.

00:55:36   It's the start of a long process that will lead

00:55:37   to full reviews in the fall, but it's a start.

00:55:41   - So yeah, you can go read more there,

00:55:42   but all of this was, all of that conversation

00:55:45   was based in mind of, we knew developer beta three

00:55:48   would be the public beta, 'cause it always is,

00:55:50   and we had the idea that it was coming today.

00:55:52   So we thought, hey, why not talk about them?

00:55:54   So there you go.

00:55:55   - That was it, that was it, now you know.

00:55:56   And by the time you're listening to this,

00:55:58   probably dear listener, you've already seen

00:56:00   that there's a public beta, and already treated

00:56:02   that comment as public beta related,

00:56:04   'cause the beta three is basically the public beta.

00:56:06   That's generally how that works,

00:56:07   the developer Beta 3 then gets rolled out to the public. I think they wait a few days to see if

00:56:12   anything explodes and then they roll it out to the public.

00:56:14   - Remember Roundup, Jason Snell. - Okay, yeah. I'm ready.

00:56:17   - This time it's all focused on the extreme sports version of the Apple Watch. Now,

00:56:23   I just want to know, Upgradients will know, Mark Gurman has been calling this the rugged Apple Watch,

00:56:29   the sports Apple Watch, and we coined the term extreme sports. This is now caught on.

00:56:34   So I'm going to say that that came from us.

00:56:36   I know that this was a joke that we made some weeks ago.

00:56:40   I'm not saying this is serious, but it is funny to me now that--

00:56:42   Apple Watch Extreme.

00:56:43   Now Mark Gorman is calling it the extreme sports version

00:56:46   of the Apple Watch 2.

00:56:48   There's more details here, and details I was not expecting.

00:56:52   So this comes from a couple of articles.

00:56:55   One was a typical Bloomberg article that Mark wrote,

00:56:59   and then another was in the Power On newsletter.

00:57:01   So we've got this Apple Watch will have a larger screen

00:57:06   than any current Apple Watch.

00:57:08   It will be almost two inches diagonally,

00:57:11   which is, it'll be 7% more screen real estate

00:57:14   than the largest watch screen right now.

00:57:17   So it's not a huge difference, but it is different.

00:57:20   And I was not expecting that,

00:57:22   because my expectation is this will probably cause work

00:57:25   for Apple Watch app developers just to fully support this.

00:57:30   I mean, it depends.

00:57:32   It depends to me on whether they are,

00:57:34   and I was unclear reading Marc's report,

00:57:38   if the screen's bigger, is it more screen space

00:57:40   or is it just that everything's bigger?

00:57:42   Right?

00:57:45   - So he did give-- - If it's the same number of--

00:57:47   If it's the same number of pixels,

00:57:49   then it doesn't matter, right?

00:57:52   If it's bigger.

00:57:53   - Yeah, I don't know if he knows.

00:57:55   'Cause he was saying some stuff--

00:57:57   - I know, right? - Like he was saying about,

00:57:59   oh, and they're putting more stuff on the screens now,

00:58:01   which will make this even better.

00:58:03   But yeah, I don't know, right?

00:58:05   Like I don't know how to do this.

00:58:06   - Yeah, I read that with some skepticism

00:58:08   because I was trying to say,

00:58:09   is he really saying that there's gonna be

00:58:11   a new screen layout on that thing?

00:58:13   Or is he saying it's gonna be a little bit bigger,

00:58:17   but that's just gonna make everything more readable.

00:58:19   And I'm not clear on that at all.

00:58:23   And I think you could take it to mean that,

00:58:25   but I'm not sure that I believe that.

00:58:28   And again, his wording here is all, you know,

00:58:31   there's stuff he seems to know

00:58:33   and stuff he's not sure about.

00:58:35   And so there's a lot going on here.

00:58:38   - Well, okay, so I'm trying to work this out

00:58:43   by looking at, this doesn't make any sense,

00:58:46   430 by 352 pixels.

00:58:50   And he says 410 by 502 pixels.

00:58:53   So that's different.

00:58:57   - Yeah, if it really is a different screen size,

00:59:00   I mean, I'm sure there'll be like a compatibility

00:59:02   or something where it just runs in the center,

00:59:04   but maybe apps can take advantage of it.

00:59:06   Or alternately, maybe there's a system thing

00:59:08   that is putting a frame around it that, you know,

00:59:10   or only Apple is taking advantage of.

00:59:12   I don't know.

00:59:13   It's an interesting thought that there might be

00:59:15   yet another screen size for Apple Watch developers

00:59:17   to deal with.

00:59:17   - Yeah, so to say that slightly differently,

00:59:19   this is coming from screen sizes, size screens.com,

00:59:24   it's just what came up when I Googled it.

00:59:26   The big one is 484 by 396.

00:59:35   And Mark is saying that this would be 502 by 410.

00:59:40   Well, that's bigger.

00:59:40   So that's different.

00:59:42   So I'm not sure he knows completely,

00:59:46   and we don't know completely.

00:59:47   But it will be bigger.

00:59:49   So I wasn't expecting that.

00:59:53   Increased shatter resistance on the display,

00:59:55   that would make perfect sense, right?

00:59:58   - Sure.

00:59:59   - Rugged metal casing.

01:00:01   Quote, "Strong metal instead of aluminum."

01:00:05   Quote, "Probably titanium."

01:00:07   Mark didn't say this in the report,

01:00:09   but said it in the newsletter, right?

01:00:11   Probably, you never see probablys

01:00:14   in a typical Mark Gorman-Blumberg report.

01:00:17   I was not expecting metal for this watch.

01:00:21   - Yeah, yeah, I wasn't either.

01:00:23   I mean, Mark's report is interesting in general

01:00:26   because he makes it sound,

01:00:28   and we should say he thinks it's gonna be expensive too.

01:00:32   He thinks it's gonna be like,

01:00:34   I mean, he kind of advocates to call it an Apple Watch Pro,

01:00:37   which I think is a bad idea, but you know, who knows?

01:00:42   Apple calls something a Pro Max, so why not?

01:00:45   - In the article, that's just one of the many names

01:00:47   he throws out there of like it's,

01:00:49   'cause in the newsletter,

01:00:51   he's comparing it to the Galaxy Watch Pro.

01:00:54   So this just refers to it as Pro.

01:00:56   But you know, he's thrown around

01:00:58   about five different names for this thing,

01:01:00   but not names that he has heard,

01:01:03   but names that he thinks it could be.

01:01:05   - Yeah, but the idea of Pro,

01:01:07   but regardless it's a high-end model

01:01:09   and it's sort of like replacing the edition with this.

01:01:12   And that's not necessarily what I thought.

01:01:13   I mean, Apple's always gonna try to make its money

01:01:15   wherever it can.

01:01:16   So having this be like a special Apple Watch

01:01:18   that's got super awesome features for people

01:01:21   who are sports enthusiasts at a high end level,

01:01:25   and they're gonna spend more money to get this thing

01:01:26   that's super strong and has more battery

01:01:30   and maybe has some special modes.

01:01:31   He says, at the end, he says something about how like,

01:01:35   "Oh, there may be some features that are just to this

01:01:38   that are announced," which I would expect.

01:01:40   I would expect that it's got some special features.

01:01:43   I was thinking about our friend, David Smith

01:01:44   and his hiking thing,

01:01:49   where he tried to take an Apple Watch

01:01:51   out into the wilderness.

01:01:52   And the challenge with that is that

01:01:54   the Apple Watch really was designed to be charged every day,

01:01:56   but you can put it in a low power mode and all that.

01:01:59   I wonder if when Mark Gurman here reports

01:02:01   the larger battery as well,

01:02:03   I started to think, I wonder if there's a story there

01:02:05   where there's basically like a long life mode

01:02:08   for the Apple Watch

01:02:09   that has some very specific characteristics,

01:02:11   and maybe it's easier to take it in and out of that

01:02:14   as you use it, but that it will have a larger battery

01:02:17   and a longer life mode so that you can use it for longer

01:02:20   and maybe it samples your heart rate and other activity

01:02:24   at a slower pace if you're gonna be out there for days.

01:02:28   I feel like that could be part of the story too,

01:02:30   but I am a little surprised like you are about the idea

01:02:32   that this is really also a high-end

01:02:35   with high-end materials kind of product

01:02:37   that they might be saying, well, this new Apple Watch Sport

01:02:40   or Extreme or Pro or whatever is gonna be made

01:02:43   with this titanium that's light and strong

01:02:46   and isn't gonna get bashed by, you know,

01:02:51   when you hit it against a boulder or whatever.

01:02:53   Interesting, I mean, like the sales pitch on this,

01:02:56   you gotta admit, it's gonna be really interesting

01:02:58   'cause like, who are they trying to hit with this?

01:03:00   And is it gonna be this sort of like

01:03:02   premium high-end sports enthusiast kind of product

01:03:06   as opposed to what I was kind of envisioning,

01:03:09   which maybe is just my lack of vision on this.

01:03:11   I was kind of envisioning something

01:03:13   that would cost more or less like what an Apple Watch costs,

01:03:16   but be a variation on it.

01:03:18   And that's not what Mark is proposing at all here.

01:03:20   He's proposing a souped up, just for sports enthusiasts

01:03:25   kind of mega Apple Watch.

01:03:28   - My kind of reading on this now is, I was like you, right?

01:03:31   Like this is gonna be a third watch in the lineup

01:03:34   and it's focused on a particular market.

01:03:37   But I think probably what they'll go with now is like,

01:03:42   you can have a watch which can do anything,

01:03:46   like it can cope with anything,

01:03:48   but you don't need to compromise on the look.

01:03:51   Right? - Yeah, and it feels like,

01:03:53   I mean, essentially also it's just

01:03:55   the high-end Apple Watch, right?

01:03:56   - Exactly. - 'Cause it's not gonna look

01:03:57   like a G-SHOCKS or something like that.

01:03:59   It's going to be made a premium material,

01:04:01   it's gonna have a bigger battery,

01:04:02   it's gonna have a bigger screen.

01:04:04   You know, obviously it's gonna be bigger and heavier,

01:04:06   but it allows them to basically say,

01:04:11   And that would lead to calling it something like Pro,

01:04:14   because although we've been thinking of it

01:04:16   as a extreme fitness version, what if it's not, right?

01:04:20   What if it's just a big old Apple Watch,

01:04:23   a big old fancy expensive Apple Watch,

01:04:25   and it's got a bunch of features maybe for the storytelling

01:04:28   that are about extreme levels of, you know,

01:04:33   activity and adventure and stuff like that.

01:04:36   It doesn't maybe change from it being kind of like

01:04:40   a mega high-end Apple Watch and not a kind of derivative for a particular market, which

01:04:47   is how I think we've been talking about it all along.

01:04:50   Yeah, it's more like, honestly feels to me more like an Apple Watch Max, right? Like,

01:04:56   you can do anything, right? Like you can do anything and it's great.

01:04:58   Maybe that's it. I like that as a bit, I like that better than Apple Watch Pro, to be honest,

01:05:02   is Apple Watch Max.

01:05:03   Me too. Pro doesn't make, I mean, honestly, I reckon they'll probably, if they're going

01:05:06   to do something, they'll do Pro because they can't stop using Pro everywhere.

01:05:09   But like it doesn't make sense to me as like I'm a professional watch wearer?

01:05:15   Like I don't, that doesn't line up in my mind.

01:05:19   Like I'm not content creating on my Apple Watch.

01:05:22   So it's Apple Watch Studio then is what we're saying.

01:05:25   You use my Apple Watch to, my body is my studio, my whatever it is, my exercises are my canvas

01:05:33   and so therefore Apple Watch Studio is for me.

01:05:37   As you mentioned, Mark is expecting this to be more expensive than any Apple Watch you

01:05:41   can currently buy in the 900 to 999 category, which makes sense to me if they're going to

01:05:47   make it bigger and they're going to put a bigger battery in it. By the way, I reckon

01:05:50   the screen's only getting bigger because they want to put a bigger battery in it. I think

01:05:54   it started with battery and then they ended up with bigger screen because they needed

01:05:57   a bigger physical case. That would be my expectation.

01:06:00   Right. And maybe they had a conversation about ruggedizing it and people were like, "You

01:06:04   what we should do is make it of a fine rugged metal because then right because then people

01:06:11   will buy it aspirationally and wear it as a regular Apple watch whereas if it if it's

01:06:16   if it looks like a big plasticy if it is a watch you're not gonna wear it to dinner right

01:06:24   yeah it is made of the fluoro elastomer stuff that they make the sport bands out of which

01:06:29   I was kind of hoping it would because it'd be fun. It's gonna look like either a sports

01:06:36   watch or be a kids watch right and I think they probably don't want to do that right

01:06:40   that would be my expectation in reading these reports. This pricing thing has led to a lot

01:06:45   of people thinking that Apple's going to get rid of the edition. I don't think they are.

01:06:49   I think the Series 8 will still have an edition model.

01:06:52   I have a hard time believing they won't offer I mean whether they call it edition or not

01:06:56   like offering stainless steel and titanium as materials doesn't like what

01:06:59   it's a chance to sell literally the same product for a lot more yes and for

01:07:04   people who want to buy the the nicer material and who might not want to buy

01:07:08   this particularly high-end watch so with the series 7 they stopped breaking it

01:07:15   out into its own product it used like Apple watch edition used to be kind of

01:07:19   like its own thing like we're in the ceramic and titanium but now we just go

01:07:24   to the buy page it's just a material option basically, it's titanium and it's called

01:07:30   addition. It's not broken out in the same way, it's kind of like Hermes, they're

01:07:36   not going to stop making the Hermes either. So I kind of just feel like all of those fit

01:07:41   under series 7 or series 8 it will be, because it's just different materials for that watch

01:07:46   type and then the Apple Watch Max will be its own thing. And honestly, could also have

01:07:54   a set of different materials, right? Like, who knows? All Mark has officially said is

01:08:01   strong metal, which is a fun thing for me, but then referenced titanium as a probably.

01:08:08   Because it would be interesting to me if they made this out of titanium and then also continued

01:08:12   to make a series 8 in titanium. I feel like if they're going to make this out of titanium,

01:08:18   they need to make an addition out of something else. Hopefully they go back to ceramic, because

01:08:23   'cause I miss the ceramic.

01:08:25   - I wanted to mention also,

01:08:27   just 'cause I don't know this category very well at all,

01:08:29   I'm looking at the G-Shock website, Casio.

01:08:32   And you know, I always think of them as like plastic

01:08:34   or rubberized kind of things.

01:08:36   And you can buy plasticy G-Shocks for 140 bucks,

01:08:39   but like you can also buy a G-Shock for 800, 1100, 1200

01:08:44   that are kind of special, carbon fiber reinforced, et cetera.

01:08:50   And like you think Apple doesn't look at this spread of products and go, well, I know where

01:08:55   we're going. We're going up there, right? Then we're not going to the $110 plastic one.

01:08:59   We're going to the $1,000 fancy one and doing it there. So yeah, this fascinating little tidbit.

01:09:06   Like it doesn't seem like Mark Gurman knows everything about this product, but it is coming

01:09:11   more into focus as a high-end, not like you said, not coated in like fluoro elastomer. And it's like,

01:09:19   if you drop it, it bounces back up into your hand

01:09:22   kind of thing, right?

01:09:23   Like it's a Super Bowl with an Apple Watch inside,

01:09:27   but more that it's a high-end Apple Watch

01:09:29   that has some features that are going to fit

01:09:32   the storytelling of the sports focus of the Apple Watch,

01:09:36   which kind of makes sense.

01:09:37   But you could also just buy one

01:09:38   if you want a bigger Apple Watch with a bigger battery

01:09:41   and all of that, you can just buy it and wear it

01:09:43   and it'll look nice.

01:09:44   And that sounds right to me,

01:09:46   that sounds much more plausible.

01:09:48   to celebrate the summer of fun.

01:09:49   We're gonna do a quick draft.

01:09:51   - Quick draft.

01:09:52   - Jason had an idea that we're gonna draft app icons.

01:09:55   - We are.

01:09:56   - This is, we've been very,

01:09:58   we haven't really shared a lot of like what are the rules.

01:09:59   We don't have rules.

01:10:00   It's just, we're just gonna pick our favorite app icons.

01:10:03   - Yeah, that's it.

01:10:05   - I would like to go first.

01:10:08   - Yeah, you get to go first.

01:10:08   I suggested this draft, so I'm gonna let you go first.

01:10:12   - And I took a look at my iPhone home screen,

01:10:15   took a look at my iPad home screen,

01:10:17   And then also consulted a book that I own,

01:10:20   which I backed from a Kickstarter campaign

01:10:21   called the iOS App Icon Book.

01:10:23   So I spent some time today going through that

01:10:26   and looking at some of the best app icons

01:10:30   in all of iOS history for this today.

01:10:33   - Yeah.

01:10:34   - And so I feel like I wanna start with something

01:10:38   really classic and also maybe to steal one from you.

01:10:42   And I'm gonna go with Twitterrific.

01:10:44   - Oh, for people who don't know,

01:10:48   the Twitterific Bluebird predates Twitter

01:10:52   using a blue bird as its icon.

01:10:55   They got the idea,

01:10:58   Twitterific not only did that,

01:10:59   they defined, Craig Hockenberry defined the term tweets.

01:11:04   Like there's a reason there's only one third party app

01:11:09   that gets to use the word Twitter in its name still.

01:11:11   - Yeah.

01:11:12   - 'Cause they,

01:11:13   - The Twitter kind of owes them,

01:11:15   they helped build the service. - We'll just agree here,

01:11:16   shall we? - Yeah, exactly.

01:11:18   And it was on my list, it was second on my list

01:11:21   because it's a great icon, it comes in lots of variations,

01:11:24   but that Bluebird, it's great.

01:11:27   - That was for me. - It's a great icon.

01:11:30   - You know, some of my favorite app icons

01:11:32   are variations of the, you know,

01:11:33   like that are available inside of apps,

01:11:35   but like, I just think any version of this,

01:11:38   'cause it's like also every Twitter app

01:11:40   also has some other kind of Bluebird,

01:11:41   Like everyone, but like it all started here

01:11:44   and also is made by like one of,

01:11:49   if not the definitive icon design companies as well, right?

01:11:53   Like this just felt to me as like so many things converging

01:11:57   to be like, this is one of the best.

01:11:59   - I agree. It was very high up on my list.

01:12:03   Now you were looking at the app icon book

01:12:05   and looking at iOS icons.

01:12:06   I'm just gonna say my next pick is a Mac icon.

01:12:11   - How about that? - There's a lot of Mac icons

01:12:12   in that book too.

01:12:13   - Okay, that's good.

01:12:15   That's good.

01:12:16   Well, I'm gonna go for a classic introduced in the,

01:12:19   oh, when was it?

01:12:22   In the OS 8, I wanna say days?

01:12:27   There was a point when the clones came in

01:12:29   where Apple needed to do some branding around Mac OS

01:12:31   because Mac OS was no longer just running on Macs.

01:12:34   It was running on clones, but they were running Mac OS

01:12:37   so there needed to be branding

01:12:39   and Apple has kept macOS branding all along.

01:12:41   And one of the things they introduced at the time

01:12:44   was an interesting icon that was a face,

01:12:48   but also a face looking the other direction.

01:12:51   And it's now the Finder icon.

01:12:52   So I'm going to choose the Finder,

01:12:54   which is also the classic macOS icon.

01:12:57   - Oh man.

01:12:57   - As my choice.

01:13:00   - That's a good one.

01:13:00   - For my first choice, the Finder.

01:13:02   - That's a good one. - The smiley faces.

01:13:04   It's like a person looking to their right

01:13:07   and maybe kissing somebody on the side of their face,

01:13:10   or it's a face facing forward.

01:13:12   It's both things at once.

01:13:13   (laughing)

01:13:14   - It's like, "Hey buddy."

01:13:16   You know, comes in. - Hey, hey, love you.

01:13:18   - I'm gonna pick one that I think this icon

01:13:23   does a very good job of showing off

01:13:26   one of my favorite app designs of all time as well, Clear.

01:13:31   - Oh, interesting.

01:13:34   - Yeah, I think Clear is one of the most beautiful apps

01:13:37   ever made. It was a to-do app. It was just wonderful design in and out and the app

01:13:43   icon itself just does a great job of showing that like the heat map kind of

01:13:48   look that the app originated. So yeah what does the clear app icon look like?

01:13:53   It's a checkbox? Checkbox with like oranges to red like not like a gradient

01:13:59   or something like little like... Well like with the like with the six colors rainbow

01:14:03   it's that kind of thing. It's striped of a—it's a gradient, but it's in like six stripes.

01:14:08   -Yeah. -Or five stripes.

01:14:10   -Yeah, and I think it does a great job of showing off the design that's inside,

01:14:15   because I think it's just—it's one of my favorite app designs ever, and the icon just is so simple,

01:14:23   but so well made. Yeah, big fan. -In looking at all these apps for this draft,

01:14:30   I did have, I'm sure you did too, this question of like, well, what do I like in an app icon?

01:14:34   Sure. Because there are lots of apps I use all the time and they have icons that are recognizable.

01:14:38   And like from a purely functional perspective, having an app that your brain can assign to

01:14:44   pattern matching so you can see it and know that that's the app and maybe have some feelings about

01:14:48   it. But like it has being an app with an icon, like the icon has a job to do. But what I found

01:14:54   when I was looking for this draft, I kept thinking like, just like a thing with a letter on it,

01:15:00   or a couple of letters on it, like, doesn't really excite me. I kind of want it to be,

01:15:08   have a symbol and have it be clever in some way. That was sort of what I realized that was working

01:15:16   working for me. I don't know, what did you think? Did you come up with, as you were looking,

01:15:24   a kind of working definition of what is a good app in your terms?

01:15:28   I think it honestly is like something that felt iconic in a way. So I think for me it

01:15:36   was...

01:15:37   Your best icons are iconic, you're saying.

01:15:39   Yes, I think so. I mean, so I wasn't looking for like company logo or letters or, you know.

01:15:45   So for me it was something...

01:15:46   - And they either really strongly evoked the app

01:15:50   and or did what you were just mentioning about like

01:15:54   unequivocally says what this app is.

01:15:57   So like the next one that I'm gonna pick

01:15:58   is an example of that if you don't pick it before me,

01:16:00   but like, yeah.

01:16:02   - All right, with my next pick,

01:16:04   I'm picking maps, Apple Maps.

01:16:06   - Wow, okay.

01:16:08   - I really liked the Apple Maps icon

01:16:10   and have liked it through history

01:16:12   because it says what it is, but in a visual way,

01:16:15   It's got the little blue dot, it's got a little arrow.

01:16:19   And also I like it for the detail here,

01:16:21   which is if people don't know the Apple Maps icon

01:16:24   used to be the vicinity of infinite loop,

01:16:29   the actual like Interstate 280 and the exit

01:16:33   and infinite loop.

01:16:35   And now it's the vicinity of Apple Park

01:16:38   and it's the Wolf Road exit now

01:16:40   on the far side of Apple Park

01:16:44   and the little curve of Apple Park is up in the corner.

01:16:47   And I like that it looks like map elements,

01:16:49   but it's also something that I can see at a glance

01:16:51   and know that it's the Maps app.

01:16:52   And I really love the detail of the fact

01:16:55   that it's the actual map area of the Apple Campus.

01:16:59   - That's a good one.

01:17:01   In that similar vein of like an app icon

01:17:04   telling you what it is, I'm gonna go with Fantastic Hal.

01:17:07   - Sure. - I think it's just like

01:17:09   a very nice design, like with the colors

01:17:12   that exist inside of the kind of calendar squares,

01:17:16   but it just looks like a calendar.

01:17:18   Like, I like it, but it doesn't look like a calendar

01:17:20   in such a way that like, it looks like it's pretending

01:17:23   to be a real calendar, you know?

01:17:24   Like it's not got that skeuomorphism, which, you know,

01:17:28   I think had its time and its place,

01:17:31   and I like the kind of where we are now,

01:17:33   a lot with design, where there's a little bit

01:17:35   of texture back, but we're not trying to pretend

01:17:36   to be something we're not.

01:17:38   One of the things I'm always struck at

01:17:40   when I see screenshots from iPhones,

01:17:44   like iPhone 6 and early, all of the screens looked dark

01:17:48   because everyone was putting shadows on everything.

01:17:51   So, like, everything just looks, like, muddy to me.

01:17:54   There's, like, a clarity that's lost.

01:17:57   But anyway, I think Fantastic

01:18:07   It's funny on the Mac I have it displaying

01:18:10   with the current date,

01:18:11   which honestly I don't need

01:18:15   'cause I have the current date up in the top.

01:18:18   So that's what I should do is I should like turn it off.

01:18:20   I should just have it be,

01:18:22   it's like a high date on app icon.

01:18:24   Oh, look at that in the settings.

01:18:25   I can make it, yeah, that's a lot better.

01:18:27   That's a good one.

01:18:28   I like it.

01:18:29   I, huh, there are so many,

01:18:35   and we're only doing five here.

01:18:37   I'm gonna go with another Mac app.

01:18:46   Am I? Am I though?

01:18:51   You know, I'm gonna go with Overcast.

01:18:56   - Classic, okay.

01:18:57   - Like I use Overcast as my podcast player,

01:19:01   so I see that icon a lot, but I like it.

01:19:05   I like that it's orange.

01:19:06   I use the orange one.

01:19:07   I don't use the dark one.

01:19:08   I like the orange background.

01:19:09   - I was very happy when I got to be able

01:19:11   to set the orange icon when using the dark theme.

01:19:16   - Yes, right, instead of changing the one.

01:19:17   - 'Cause I missed out on the orange icon for a long time.

01:19:20   - It's very simple.

01:19:21   It's a little broadcast transmitter

01:19:23   with the little orange radio waves waving out.

01:19:27   If you know that, if not, I think it's still,

01:19:30   you know, you could think of that as a speaker

01:19:32   playing music if you aren't thinking of it

01:19:34   as from the broadcast metaphor.

01:19:36   In the white circle with the orange background behind it,

01:19:41   very easy to pick out.

01:19:43   And also again, an icon,

01:19:46   I guess technically it's got a letter in it.

01:19:48   If you consider that circle an O, I don't.

01:19:51   So there.

01:19:52   - Oh no, I wouldn't have,

01:19:55   I don't think it's meant to be.

01:19:57   - No, it's not.

01:19:58   But I'm just saying that the most,

01:19:59   that's the most generic form of icon

01:20:01   is that it's a colored round-wrecked with a letter in it.

01:20:06   Like the App Store icon,

01:20:08   which I would put in the Hall of Fame

01:20:09   for worst icons of all time.

01:20:11   - Guys, one of the things I like

01:20:13   about the Overcast logo icon, I should say,

01:20:17   is that it is also evocative of the other apps

01:20:22   in the category that came before.

01:20:24   The idea of like a transmission tower.

01:20:29   Yeah, it's that metaphor, the podcast metaphor.

01:20:32   Which was featured in Apple podcasts and Instacast

01:20:36   and all of those kinds of apps as well.

01:20:39   I'm going to go with Carrot Weather next.

01:20:47   Interesting.

01:20:50   What I like about Carrot Weather a lot

01:20:52   is there are loads of app icon choices,

01:20:55   and they're all pretty fun.

01:20:57   I use one called Neon Dream, but I just really like the design.

01:21:02   I think that it does a good job of choice because the app itself does a good job of

01:21:09   choice so you can choose to have something that's kind of robotic looking if you like

01:21:15   the app to be robotic, right, and having its kind of personality.

01:21:23   But there's also a bunch of alternate options which can be more iconic, more customizable.

01:21:31   I like it.

01:21:32   I just think it's a nice simple icon, does a good job, and has a bunch of really good

01:21:36   options and neon dream is my favorite.

01:21:39   I love it.

01:21:40   I prefer the simpler logo that's just the cloud with the lightning bolt coming out of

01:21:46   it as opposed to the robot.

01:21:48   Yeah.

01:21:49   The neon, the one I use is a variation of just the cloud and lightning bolt.

01:21:53   It doesn't have any of the robot features.

01:21:56   - I think that's a better way to go.

01:21:58   I agree.

01:22:00   I'm gonna have to change my icon now in Carrotweather.

01:22:03   - There you go, see.

01:22:04   - To something that I prefer.

01:22:05   'Cause you know, that's me.

01:22:08   I think I'm gonna go with something orange too.

01:22:11   'Cause you know, again, it looks nice.

01:22:16   It's nice to have an orange one.

01:22:17   Pumpkin guts it is.

01:22:19   - Excellent.

01:22:23   Okay, my next icon is gonna be, this is an esoteric app,

01:22:28   although our friends use it, but I love it as an icon.

01:22:32   - Oh, I know what it's gonna be.

01:22:34   - Working Copy.

01:22:36   - That's not what I thought it was gonna be.

01:22:37   - No, I didn't think so.

01:22:39   - Okay.

01:22:41   - Working Copy is a, it's like a GitHub app,

01:22:44   a GitHub client.

01:22:47   It's basically, or is it more broadly,

01:22:51   it may just be version control on the iPad.

01:22:56   But I love its icon 'cause its icon is a fingerprint.

01:23:01   - It looks like Touch ID. - With dots.

01:23:03   It does look kind of like Touch ID.

01:23:05   And I like, I can always spot work and copy.

01:23:08   I know exactly what it looks like.

01:23:10   But I also like that it's an image, it's not W.

01:23:15   (laughs)

01:23:17   - WC.

01:23:18   WC is not, I like, yeah, just put a toilet on there

01:23:22   and it's good, it's fine.

01:23:23   I just, I like it.

01:23:26   I like that it's a dark background

01:23:28   with a little bit of a frame,

01:23:29   but the real core is that it's got the fingerprint

01:23:33   with the points going from end to end,

01:23:35   which is, I'm sure a very nice metaphor.

01:23:39   So there you go.

01:23:41   Love it.

01:23:42   - All right, my final pick.

01:23:45   I'm gonna award a few things here for my final pick.

01:23:48   Like it's one choice, but there's a few things.

01:23:50   One designed by a friend of mine, so Nepotism.

01:23:53   - Okay.

01:23:55   - App made by a friend of mine.

01:23:56   - Dear sir, I was outraged to discover your Nepotism.

01:24:01   - Well, you know, what can I say?

01:24:03   And I really like apps that allow for options, Peacock.

01:24:07   - Oh, well, congratulations to James Thompson

01:24:14   for having his calculator chosen as a winner

01:24:17   - Whatever this is.

01:24:18   - The six colors one a lot.

01:24:20   I think it's nice.

01:24:21   I like that James has a bunch of just like fun ones.

01:24:24   There's icons for like various representation.

01:24:29   Like there's lots of like flags in there.

01:24:32   You've got wild ones, you've got furry ones,

01:24:36   all kinds of stuff's going on in here.

01:24:38   I like it.

01:24:39   And I think that the app icon itself is just really nice.

01:24:43   Like the 42.

01:24:44   I like that it isn't a little calculator actually,

01:24:47   'cause for some reason I'm breaking my own rule.

01:24:51   Yeah, I'm a fan.

01:24:52   Plus I was partly responsible

01:24:55   for there being so many icons in Peacock

01:24:58   because I convinced James that he should do it

01:25:00   and charge people for it.

01:25:01   So there you go, Peacock.

01:25:03   - I did not consider Peacock

01:25:06   because it breaks my rule of just being an icon

01:25:09   with in this case numbers in it, which it is a calculator.

01:25:14   It's fair and it is 42, which is also not fair.

01:25:19   - I think my new rule is I have no rules.

01:25:22   - Okay, that works.

01:25:23   That works.

01:25:25   I am going to choose Bartender.

01:25:30   - Oh. - That's my lack of it.

01:25:32   Bartender is a utility on the Mac

01:25:34   that lets you tend to your menu bar

01:25:36   and hide menu bar items you don't wanna see

01:25:38   or expand them when you do wanna see them.

01:25:40   And it's icon, I love it, it's hilarious.

01:25:42   It is the rounded rect is the black of the suit jacket.

01:25:47   There's a V and then there's a dress shirt underneath.

01:25:50   And then at the very top is the black bow tie.

01:25:54   It is what the bartender wears at a formal event.

01:26:00   And I think it's adorable.

01:26:01   And I love, I just love the attention to detail.

01:26:04   I think it is a elegant kind of icon.

01:26:07   It is a, some levels it's kind of a joke, right?

01:26:11   It's like, get it, bartender?

01:26:12   And yet it's so well executed.

01:26:14   - And it also, you know, the little collar of the shirt

01:26:17   pokes out of the round rack, right?

01:26:19   Like it's not completely flat on the top.

01:26:22   Which is one of the great things about Mac apps

01:26:25   is that they can be arbitrary shapes.

01:26:27   - Yeah, so good.

01:26:28   Did a good job with that one.

01:26:30   - Yeah, I liked that one a lot.

01:26:32   - I like the bartender app a lot.

01:26:33   Did you have any extras that you want to mention

01:26:35   that we didn't pick?

01:26:36   - Yeah, deliveries, I really like.

01:26:39   Tweetbot, the New Year's variant I like.

01:26:42   I didn't like when Tweetbot made the bird look angry,

01:26:45   but the New Year's one is nice.

01:26:49   And Kraft, specifically a variation that they have,

01:26:53   which is a kind of pink and blue gradient background.

01:26:56   That would be the ones that I had on my little list here.

01:27:00   - I had Net News Wire,

01:27:02   which has gone through many, many different icons,

01:27:04   but it has kept the idea of a satellite

01:27:08   that's beaming things to you.

01:27:10   I think that's a nice metaphor

01:27:12   and also instantly recognizable.

01:27:14   - I like that they didn't just go with

01:27:16   the version of the RSS logo.

01:27:18   - Sure. - Like many.

01:27:19   - No, it's a totally different concept.

01:27:21   Transmit from panic, which is, you know, it's that truck.

01:27:24   - The truck. - It's that truck.

01:27:26   The yellow and blue truck. - The truck.

01:27:28   - It's iconic and great.

01:27:31   Automator, it's got a robot holding a metal thing.

01:27:36   It's adorable.

01:27:37   Apple would never let anybody get away with this now.

01:27:40   And all they did when they updated to the new style

01:27:42   where there's the round recs is they just

01:27:44   put the round rec behind the robot.

01:27:46   Whatever.

01:27:47   - The Automator logo for me,

01:27:49   I don't like it 'cause it's threatening.

01:27:51   It's like he's got a pipe and he's gonna bash me with a pipe.

01:27:55   - Yeah, maybe.

01:27:57   Maybe that's why I like it so much.

01:27:58   - How dare you make me do all this work?

01:28:00   I'm coming for you, kid.

01:28:01   That's what I think when I look at this little icon here.

01:28:05   - An app I use all the time,

01:28:06   but rarely see the icon of is actually a launch bar.

01:28:09   But what I like about it is that it's like almost like a,

01:28:13   it's kind of cryptic,

01:28:13   but like it's an L and a B for like launch bar.

01:28:16   It is sort of the L and the B,

01:28:18   but it's also a circle that goes into an arrow.

01:28:22   And it's also got that kind of step gradient

01:28:23   from orange to a yellow of the arrow.

01:28:27   It's very pretty.

01:28:28   And I like that it's the logo is the name of the app,

01:28:32   but you also don't need to see that to get what it is,

01:28:37   which I think is very clever.

01:28:38   And my last one, I just wanted to do a shout out

01:28:41   to an icon that makes me laugh every time I launch it.

01:28:46   And that's the icon for VLC, which is a road cone.

01:28:50   - What does that mean?

01:28:53   - I don't know why it's a cone.

01:28:56   I'm sure there's a story.

01:28:57   It's like, is it because it's constantly under development

01:29:00   and it's because it's dangerous?

01:29:02   because you shouldn't, I don't know, I just love that it's a cone because it makes me laugh. Again,

01:29:07   is it a good icon? I don't know. Does it properly represent the app? No, not at all,

01:29:13   which is probably why it's not a good icon. And yet it does make me laugh. So that's got to be

01:29:18   worth something. This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Have you ever been hit with a

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01:30:51   Let's finish up today's episode with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:30:55   The first comes from Brian.

01:30:58   Brian says, "My Apple Watch will sometimes throw up handwashing or workout suggestions or alerts while I'm doing things that are not handwashing or working out.

01:31:07   Do you have any situations where your watch will detect something that's different from the reality of the situation?"

01:31:12   I turn the handwashing thing off.

01:31:15   Okay.

01:31:16   Workout suggestions?

01:31:18   Yes.

01:31:19   Oh really?

01:31:20   - Sometimes I will get that.

01:31:23   I've been getting workout suggestions lately that are,

01:31:25   I mean, it's helpful when it recognizes it.

01:31:27   My bigger frustration is that I will sometimes be out

01:31:31   on a walk and it doesn't notice.

01:31:33   And it's like, you surely have noticed that I left my house

01:31:36   and have been walking and my heart rate is updated.

01:31:39   And sometimes it doesn't catch on for quite a while.

01:31:43   And when it logs me, it's not logging the beginning

01:31:45   of the walk, so it obviously missed some of it.

01:31:47   I'm a little bit baffled by that.

01:31:49   So that happens.

01:31:50   I also get frustrated by the,

01:31:52   are you done working out?

01:31:54   That sometimes happens.

01:31:55   And it's like, no, I'm not done working out.

01:31:56   - Oh, that's rough.

01:31:57   I haven't had that one before.

01:31:58   So like you're still working out and it's like.

01:32:01   - You seem to be going slower or being,

01:32:03   and it's like, are you done working out?

01:32:04   I'm not done working, shut up.

01:32:06   - It's like, hey Jason,

01:32:06   it feels like you've given up at this point.

01:32:08   - You've given up now, right?

01:32:09   Would you like to give up officially?

01:32:11   No, I don't want to give up officially.

01:32:13   Well, let me tell you the,

01:32:15   there was a workout type for curling.

01:32:17   And you know, you're sweeping.

01:32:19   you can get your heart rate pretty elevated,

01:32:21   but you know, curling is like it goes in cycles

01:32:23   and you're shooting and then you're sweeping.

01:32:26   And it is not set to, it keeps asking me like between ends,

01:32:31   like, are you done curling now?

01:32:32   I was like, no, I'm not done.

01:32:34   It's just, I'm not, it's not like running.

01:32:36   It's not like I'm sprinting all the time,

01:32:38   but I'm still doing it.

01:32:39   And they should tweak that a little bit

01:32:40   for all the people who use the curling workout,

01:32:42   which I get a kick out of,

01:32:44   'cause it's hilarious to use the curling workout

01:32:46   on the Apple Watch.

01:32:47   But anyway, I don't have--

01:32:50   that's about it.

01:32:52   I very rarely get something other than the false negatives

01:32:57   of "are you done?"

01:32:58   And I wish it was better at doing the, you know,

01:33:01   "I figured out that you were taking a walk,

01:33:03   so I logged it for you" thing.

01:33:04   But it often misses it until it's, like, way too late.

01:33:09   -I had one that Adina had one the other day,

01:33:10   which was intriguing.

01:33:12   It was a big problem, which was funny.

01:33:14   We were outside.

01:33:15   we were walking somewhere and it said it looks like you're walking indoors would you like

01:33:19   to record an indoor workout and I'm not sure how it got that one messed up you know like

01:33:25   what what was so different about an indoor and outdoor walk and why did it get those

01:33:29   wrong that was just weird for me washing dishes I get the hand washing thing a lot obviously

01:33:36   right that one kind of makes sense one that really annoyed me for a while you know it

01:33:42   has the noise detection one, you know like, oh, you're in a loud environment. I had this

01:33:47   on for a while, so that would be good, you know, I would like to know if I'm in places

01:33:52   which are bad for my ears, right? Maybe I could do something about them. But it would

01:33:57   trigger every time I used a hand dryer. And I found that to be particularly frustrating

01:34:03   considering you knew I just washed my hands because I used the hand washing thing. So

01:34:08   So I feel like a natural thing to do is if someone has washed their hands don't worry

01:34:15   about the noise detection for the next minute because they're going to be using a hand dryer.

01:34:21   So it's the air blowing into the microphone, right?

01:34:24   Makes them think it's super loud or just because they are loud and I just found that to be

01:34:30   really annoying every time.

01:34:31   It's like "Oh you're in a loud environment!"

01:34:33   No I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.

01:34:35   I just dry my hands, that's all.

01:34:38   Veej asks, "I had an operation yesterday. I hope you're okay, Yig."

01:34:43   Veej, I really hope you're okay.

01:34:45   "I woke up this morning and my Apple Watch was bugging me about completing my rings since I hadn't yesterday.

01:34:52   I am of course going to be taking a rest day today and probably tomorrow.

01:34:57   Shouldn't that be an option Apple gives you?"

01:35:00   Yes.

01:35:01   Yeah, I have several friends who use the, are committed to closing their rings, who have complained about this.

01:35:07   - Please let me invite you to the idea of coronavirus,

01:35:12   which is a thing that many of us are having.

01:35:15   - Also, I think the idea streaks in general.

01:35:19   I think streak forgiveness is a thing that should happen,

01:35:22   that sometimes there's like, oh,

01:35:24   you've gone 22 straight days and like, you know what?

01:35:28   Not every day is gonna be for this.

01:35:30   I get the idea of wanting to motivate you,

01:35:32   but having the ability as a human being to be like,

01:35:34   no, today is my break day because you don't know.

01:35:37   I had an operation or I'm sick or whatever it is.

01:35:41   And I'm not saying you should be able to skip three weeks

01:35:46   and have it keep your streak, right?

01:35:47   That doesn't make sense.

01:35:48   But the idea of a rest day

01:35:50   and programming a rest day in potentially,

01:35:52   or saying, no, this is my rest day,

01:35:53   I'm not gonna go for a run today, that would be helpful.

01:35:57   Yeah, I had that related.

01:36:00   I had that where I, okay, long story short,

01:36:03   everything's fine.

01:36:04   This was like a month ago.

01:36:05   I was running and I fell and I bruised my ribs.

01:36:08   It sucks, they still hurt.

01:36:11   But the next day as I'm icing and heating and icing

01:36:16   and taking as many pain, you know, as much Tylenol

01:36:20   and Advil as I'm allowed to take

01:36:22   and I'm sitting there not doing anything,

01:36:24   my Apple Watch is like,

01:36:26   you seem to be getting a slow start on the day.

01:36:28   You can still do it.

01:36:30   And I'm like, shut up Apple Watch.

01:36:32   Like, and there's no way, and I get it, I get it,

01:36:34   It's software.

01:36:35   All it can do is what it can do

01:36:37   'cause it's dumb and it's software.

01:36:39   But there are cases where you kind of want the human touch.

01:36:41   You kind of want to say like,

01:36:43   I'm not going to be active today and let it be like,

01:36:46   okay, I'll check in with you tomorrow.

01:36:48   And I know from especially active people I know

01:36:51   that the drive to do it every day,

01:36:54   like it can be good as a motivator.

01:36:57   It can also run into these moments where it's like,

01:36:59   you know what?

01:37:01   It's not appropriate today.

01:37:02   Let's take this as a skip day.

01:37:03   and it's okay and we'll give you a skip day.

01:37:06   We're gonna keep your streaks alive.

01:37:07   It's okay because you're only human

01:37:12   and you might not wanna do it every day.

01:37:14   - This isn't like some official global competition

01:37:17   we're doing.

01:37:17   This is just for me.

01:37:19   Like if I give myself a day

01:37:22   and it tells me I still kept my streak going,

01:37:25   nothing's affected.

01:37:26   Like it's just for me.

01:37:28   So why can't I do that?

01:37:30   Like I lost my longest move streak

01:37:33   because I was on a transatlantic flight.

01:37:35   - Right.

01:37:37   - I flew, I took like a, you know,

01:37:40   like I flew from California, I think.

01:37:42   Yeah, I flew from California.

01:37:44   And by the time that I landed, it reset to the next day

01:37:48   and I didn't have enough time in the day

01:37:50   to accumulate the rest of my streak points,

01:37:53   even though I tried.

01:37:54   So, you know, like now, you know,

01:37:56   they do that calculation and they recalculate it all.

01:38:00   Ah, that annoys me too,

01:38:01   the way that they do the calculation of date math when you like they recalculate all the

01:38:06   points and assign them to the other days rather than split.

01:38:09   Yeah it's annoying, I find it really annoying.

01:38:10   But anyway they should have a rest day option and honestly I can't believe they haven't

01:38:13   done it by now.

01:38:14   It's just not healthy like in my opinion.

01:38:17   Push people all the time.

01:38:19   Anyway Wes asks, "Is there any news on how the new shared photo library will treat our

01:38:25   cloud family storage?

01:38:27   each library have its own copy of a photo taking doubled space or is there going to

01:38:32   be like linked against the same photo? Do you know any of this stuff right now? Does anybody?

01:38:35   Uh yeah the person who creates the iCloud family shared library it goes toward their space.

01:38:41   It doesn't double up if you're on a family plan or whatever or even sharing with somebody who's not

01:38:46   in a family. Their space doesn't get charged, you get charged for all the photos that are placed in

01:38:51   in the shared library.

01:38:52   It doesn't, will each library have its own copy of a photo?

01:38:58   No, there are two libraries.

01:39:00   There's the shared and the not shared.

01:39:02   And so you can view them all individually

01:39:05   or you can view them merged, but they're not doubling.

01:39:09   They're in one or they're in the other.

01:39:11   - So can you help me understand this a bit more?

01:39:13   So let's imagine we're a family

01:39:15   and you've created the shared library.

01:39:20   - If I wanna contribute things that are shared library,

01:39:24   do I have to like push them to the library?

01:39:27   But then it counts on your storage

01:39:29   for everybody else in the family.

01:39:32   - Yeah, it counts on my storage.

01:39:33   - Okay.

01:39:34   - I mean, it's family, it's all shared,

01:39:35   so it doesn't matter.

01:39:36   But if we're not in a family together,

01:39:37   which you and I aren't,

01:39:38   and yet we decide we're the ones

01:39:40   who are gonna share the library,

01:39:41   I believe even when you move those photos

01:39:43   into the shared library,

01:39:45   they go off of your ledger and onto mine.

01:39:47   - Oh, okay.

01:39:49   - That's how that works.

01:39:50   - Okay.

01:39:51   - I think that's how it works.

01:39:51   - I have another question about iCloud shared photo

01:39:54   libraries from Florian.

01:39:55   Do you know if it's gonna support full image quality?

01:39:59   - Yes.

01:40:01   This is a full straight up iCloud photo library.

01:40:04   So it's full image quality.

01:40:05   It's not like the old shared libraries

01:40:07   that were kind of like partial.

01:40:08   - Or photo stream.

01:40:10   That was like a thing.

01:40:11   You remember that?

01:40:12   - There was photo stream and camera roll,

01:40:14   camera roll, photo stream.

01:40:16   And then the current sharing, which is,

01:40:19   If you, it's complicated.

01:40:22   There are some sharings where it is reduced

01:40:24   and there are some sharings where it's not,

01:40:27   depending on how you do it.

01:40:29   'Cause you can share with iCloud

01:40:30   versus making a shared album.

01:40:34   The shared library is totally different

01:40:36   and it is essentially a second iCloud photo library

01:40:41   that is shared between people, among people,

01:40:44   and it's got all your stuff in it.

01:40:47   So it's the same rules as the other one.

01:40:50   - Every photo you take is put in there or just smart.

01:40:55   - There's a lot of detail there

01:40:57   and it wasn't even put in until developer beta three.

01:41:00   So it's something that I have to spend a lot more time with

01:41:03   in order to write and about, but yes,

01:41:07   you can dump everything in there.

01:41:08   You can dump everything in taken after a certain date.

01:41:11   So like if it's like you and your partner,

01:41:14   but your partner only wants to contribute,

01:41:17   you know, from the day you met forward,

01:41:19   like that's fine, that's allowed.

01:41:21   And then there are a bunch of other things you can do.

01:41:23   You can contribute manually.

01:41:25   There are things where it will try to do detection

01:41:27   to say like, this is when you were all together,

01:41:29   so I'm gonna share.

01:41:30   You can set to share these photos.

01:41:33   It can prompt you to say,

01:41:34   do you wanna share these photos into the group?

01:41:36   There's lots of different stuff going on

01:41:38   'cause Apple didn't wanna make this

01:41:40   a all or nothing kind of thing.

01:41:43   but they also didn't wanna make it,

01:41:44   nothing happens unless you choose to.

01:41:47   Like they wanted to make it automatable

01:41:50   if you choose to share some kinds of photos.

01:41:54   So there's lots of different choices

01:41:56   going on behind the scenes

01:41:57   and I gotta spend more time with it.

01:41:59   But they're trying to make it more complex,

01:42:01   which is bad in a way, but it's good in another way

01:42:04   because I think what they're trying to think of as use cases

01:42:06   where somebody is gonna say,

01:42:07   "No, I'm not gonna share all my photos with you."

01:42:11   So it's like, okay, well, what would make it easier

01:42:14   to share a reasonable set of photos

01:42:16   that are worth sharing across different,

01:42:20   you know, different people's libraries?

01:42:22   So for example, my daughter could get

01:42:24   on our family's shared library.

01:42:26   She's obviously not gonna be sharing photos

01:42:29   of her out partying with her friends with us, right?

01:42:31   Like it's not gonna happen.

01:42:32   Embarrassing photos, things she doesn't want.

01:42:34   But it may do things like you can set it up to detect

01:42:37   when she's visiting us and, or when we take a trip together.

01:42:40   and that those will either be put in our shared library

01:42:43   or will be offered to her as, since you work together,

01:42:47   do you wanna contribute these to the library?

01:42:49   - Interesting. - So that's what Apple's

01:42:50   trying to do is make it easier to contribute photos

01:42:55   when you're not in an all or nothing scenario,

01:42:58   'cause they know some people are not gonna be,

01:43:00   like my wife and I are gonna just like turn this on

01:43:02   and be like, okay, 'cause right now I have to import

01:43:05   all the photos from her camera into my Mac

01:43:08   because they're not shared,

01:43:11   but then when she goes to build our calendar every year,

01:43:14   she's like, she wants the photos she took

01:43:16   and the photos I took.

01:43:17   So we have to do that,

01:43:18   but a lot of people aren't gonna do that, and that's fine.

01:43:21   This is set up to allow a lot of granularity there.

01:43:24   And we'll get into it.

01:43:25   I'm gonna spend the summer sharing,

01:43:27   probably sharing photos with myself on another account,

01:43:31   just to test this out.

01:43:33   Won't that be exciting?

01:43:34   - Yeah, I'm happy to do it this way,

01:43:37   'Cause I feel like I would want,

01:43:39   like with me and Nadine,

01:43:40   we only really need to share stuff with each other right now

01:43:43   where we are together,

01:43:44   or we would share them manually.

01:43:47   'Cause like, hey, I think you might want these images,

01:43:50   but she doesn't need every photo I take

01:43:51   and I don't need every photo she takes.

01:43:53   - Right, well, that's the idea.

01:43:54   And so you can set it up where there's certain categories

01:43:56   or certain types or you have,

01:43:57   and then you also always have the ability to just say,

01:44:00   put this photo in the share,

01:44:01   or select a bunch and say, put these in the share,

01:44:03   and do it manually.

01:44:05   I think Apple just wants to make it

01:44:06   so that they can make it easier than that, right?

01:44:08   'Cause that's not that much fun to say,

01:44:10   every so often I have to go and select all my photos

01:44:12   and move them over.

01:44:13   And like they want to make it more magical than that

01:44:16   if they can.

01:44:17   - If you would like to ask us a question

01:44:21   for us to answer on the show,

01:44:22   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade

01:44:24   or use question mark askupgrade

01:44:26   in the Relay FM members discord.

01:44:28   Thank you so much to our members

01:44:29   who helped support the show

01:44:31   and to Capital One, Sourcegraph and Squarespace

01:44:33   for sponsoring this week's episode.

01:44:35   If you want to find Jason online, go to Sixcolors.com.

01:44:39   You will find some great articles there from Jason and Dan about all of the new

01:44:43   betas for public betas for consumption that are available now.

01:44:48   You can find Jason.

01:44:49   He is @jasonel on Twitter, J-S-N-E-double-L.

01:44:52   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:44:54   And we'll be back next week.

01:44:56   Don't forget, if you've still gotten here and you've not gone to upgradeyourwardrobe.com

01:45:01   to buy yourself a T-shirt, you better do it before it's too late.

01:45:05   it could already be too late. And if you didn't do it, I'm sorry. We've reminded you, I think,

01:45:09   four times. So, you know, what do you want from us?

01:45:13   Wednesday, July 13th is the last day. Get at the end or be sad.

01:45:17   You just heard from the t-shirt ghost. And, you know, the t-shirt ghost, you know it's

01:45:22   bad. I was a t-shirt nobody bought. Ooh, I'm not

01:45:26   available. Say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:45:30   Goodbye!

01:45:32   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:45:35   (upbeat music)

01:45:38   [Music]