411: 180% Different for Me


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:12   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 411.

00:00:16   Today's show is brought to you by Unipizza Ovens, Electric, Capital One, and Mode.

00:00:20   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.

00:00:23   Hi, Myke.

00:00:25   Hi, I'm waving.

00:00:26   Summer of fun!

00:00:29   - You already know it because you've heard the music.

00:00:31   We're starting the summer fun early.

00:00:33   Jason, why are we starting the summer fun early?

00:00:36   - Well, because it's basically summer

00:00:39   and I'm enjoying the sun and you're enjoying the sun

00:00:41   in sunny California because we are recording this,

00:00:45   one, in person.

00:00:48   - In the human flesh.

00:00:49   - And you're like, well, wait a second,

00:00:50   I thought Myke was sick.

00:00:51   How could they do that?

00:00:52   And it's like, well, I have a long table in my backyard

00:00:56   and my backyard is outside.

00:00:58   I'd like to keep my backyard outside.

00:01:01   And here we are, we are in my backyard

00:01:04   with a complete podcast set up

00:01:06   that is working surprisingly well.

00:01:11   - And I'm staying masked, I've decided,

00:01:13   except for when I'm drinking fluids.

00:01:16   Because look, if I take Jason Snell down,

00:01:19   the world's coming up.

00:01:20   - Oh, but you sound so muffled that way.

00:01:22   We're far away and the breeze is blowing.

00:01:24   - Hey look, I just want it on record that I tried.

00:01:28   'cause I still have, I'm still positive.

00:01:29   I'm still testing positive every day.

00:01:31   - Well, as listeners can hear, we are outside.

00:01:37   We are not next to each other.

00:01:38   We are at a remove from one another.

00:01:41   I can even scoot back a little bit.

00:01:43   And the wind is blowing, as you can hear,

00:01:46   not a sound effect.

00:01:47   Now we, last year, I think on the Summer of Fun,

00:01:49   or maybe it was two years ago during Stay Inside time,

00:01:53   we did a fake episode where we were outside.

00:01:56   - Outgrade. - Outgrade.

00:01:57   for the summer fun where we put in a lot of sound effects

00:02:00   that suggested that we were outside.

00:02:03   (motorcycle engine revving)

00:02:04   We could just slide back.

00:02:05   - You hear that?

00:02:06   That was the sound of a picnic chair.

00:02:06   - Slide on back.

00:02:08   But this is real.

00:02:11   This is all real.

00:02:11   We don't actually know what's gonna happen.

00:02:13   My neighbors were having like a pool,

00:02:14   they have like an inflatable pool.

00:02:15   They were having a pool party

00:02:16   with a bunch of kids in it yesterday

00:02:17   when we were out here having dinner

00:02:19   and they were screaming.

00:02:20   That could happen.

00:02:21   A crow could attack us.

00:02:23   That could happen.

00:02:24   It could rain.

00:02:25   It might.

00:02:26   But I mean looking at the sky, I'm not expecting rain.

00:02:29   - The sky's perfectly blue and it's breezy.

00:02:31   - It was raining on the Golden Gate Bridge

00:02:33   on my way over though, so you know.

00:02:34   - That's just, you know.

00:02:35   - But I feel like that always happens on the Golden Gate Bridge.

00:02:36   - It's the thick fog that is always,

00:02:37   literally always raining.

00:02:38   - Many years ago during WWDC in San Francisco,

00:02:41   me and Steven decided we would take a lovely walk together

00:02:44   across the bridge.

00:02:45   One of the worst decisions we ever made

00:02:47   because it's just cold and horrible.

00:02:49   - I probably told this story before,

00:02:50   but I commuted across the bridge in a bus every day

00:02:54   for, I don't know, 15 years.

00:02:56   And I will tell you, I would start to,

00:03:00   I'd look out the window and I'd be like,

00:03:03   bad day for you guys, or, oh, you were very lucky.

00:03:06   Like I could gauge like what kind of day it was

00:03:09   for the tourists coming over the bridge.

00:03:10   'Cause some days you couldn't see a thing

00:03:13   and it was windy and cold and miserable.

00:03:15   And other days it was crystal clear and beautiful.

00:03:17   And those people all went back to their towns

00:03:20   and in their countries and reported back,

00:03:23   oh, Golden Gate Bridge, very bad.

00:03:24   Or, oh, Golden Gate Bridge is very beautiful.

00:03:27   And it's just the luck of the draw.

00:03:29   - I have a hashtag snow talk question for you.

00:03:32   (laughing)

00:03:34   Comes from Arjun and Arjun wants to know,

00:03:35   when you make a typing mistake,

00:03:37   do you repeatedly press backspace until you correct it?

00:03:40   Or do you command space to delete the whole word

00:03:42   and type correctly?

00:03:44   - I didn't even remember that you could do the shortcut

00:03:48   to go back a word.

00:03:49   And that is my answer.

00:03:51   Also, what I really want to say here is always forward, Myke.

00:03:54   always forward. Never backward? Never backward. You never correct an error? Never. Do you

00:03:58   never make errors? Just keep going. No you do, but you just correct around them and say,

00:04:02   you know, that word I said before was not it. Anyway. Wait, so, so, what you're saying,

00:04:08   I've never seen this in your writing, so you make an error and then just say, no, forget

00:04:12   that. Don't worry about that. What I meant to say was this? I think if you consult the

00:04:15   history of my writing you'll find out that that's exactly my philosophy. Incredible.

00:04:18   Yeah, just always forward, push the cursor, forward. Ever forward. Well I like hitting

00:04:24   keys. So I just hit back, back, back, back, back.

00:04:26   - Back, back, back is a pretty good one.

00:04:27   - Yeah.

00:04:28   - That's a classic maneuver. I don't do the,

00:04:30   I don't trust a lot of those, you know, jump forward,

00:04:33   jump back, especially since sometimes they change between

00:04:35   apps or it'll be on command or, or option or whatever.

00:04:38   And so I don't, not for delete. I also, I was looking,

00:04:41   so I, I had to change some keyboard shortcuts and I had to,

00:04:47   on my Mac,

00:04:48   I discovered that there's a keyboard shortcut that's enabled

00:04:50   by default, I think that is shift delete

00:04:55   to delete the other direction.

00:04:57   I think that's it.

00:04:59   - Let me see, shift delete.

00:05:00   Yeah, it does a delete rather than backspace.

00:05:04   - It eats the letters in front of you, right?

00:05:07   - Yeah, that's what the delete key would do otherwise.

00:05:11   And then backspace just goes, backspace will go left,

00:05:13   delete key will go right if you're in a left

00:05:16   to right language.

00:05:17   - Well, I find that really disturbing and I turn that off.

00:05:22   By the way, the reason that I'm mentioning this

00:05:24   is that I mistakenly installed the Mac OS beta

00:05:29   on my main system that I use every day.

00:05:31   - Hang on a second, we need to get into that.

00:05:33   - We'll say, so I had to--

00:05:35   - Just pause there a second.

00:05:36   That is the end of snow talk.

00:05:38   - Okay, thank you.

00:05:38   - All right, we need to--

00:05:39   - Oh, chapter marker.

00:05:41   - Mm-hmm, that's where it goes.

00:05:42   - There it is.

00:05:42   - And I'm gonna write down in,

00:05:44   we have a topic later on in the show

00:05:45   called beta impressions.

00:05:46   - All right.

00:05:47   - And I'm pointing Jason mistakenly installs Ventura.

00:05:52   I will just say to close out the snow talk question.

00:05:55   I do sometimes do shift option,

00:05:57   like to, and then highlight stuff and delete it.

00:06:01   But anyway, I mostly will hit the back six key.

00:06:03   If you'd like to send in a question for us to open an

00:06:05   episode of the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag

00:06:07   snow talk or use question marks snow talk in the relay FM

00:06:10   members discord.

00:06:11   Do you want to give a mic, you want a mic update?

00:06:13   - Yes. Yes. How are you doing?

00:06:14   - Mic's still sick.

00:06:16   I still have coronavirus.

00:06:18   I would say that my symptoms are going,

00:06:22   it's I'm a rollercoaster at the moment,

00:06:24   where, and I've heard this from other people,

00:06:27   it could be perfectly fine for a while,

00:06:29   and then I just all of a sudden feel terrible.

00:06:32   My most recent symptom, which is one I've had

00:06:35   for the most couple of days, has been really nauseous.

00:06:38   Don't know where that's coming from,

00:06:39   but that's like a thing that I've got going on.

00:06:42   We're going home tomorrow.

00:06:44   I've been consulting with guidelines from the CDC and the NHS about like, can I travel?

00:06:49   The thing is, I can travel. Like, no one's stopping me. You don't have to test anymore.

00:06:54   But basically what I've been reading is after five days, you're way less contagious.

00:07:02   So as long as the CDC recommends, as long as you mask, you're fine. So I've been contagious

00:07:08   now for seven eight days so I've been testing positive for eight days I should

00:07:14   say so we've I've also because of that our airline won't change it because

00:07:19   technically and legally I can travel so we'll be masked up the entire trip and

00:07:24   going home tomorrow I will tell you I cannot wait to go home I have had enough

00:07:29   of this trip I can't wait to go it's a cursed trip yeah it really is you gotta

00:07:33   you gotta get home so saying it's a curse trip we have a connection that I'm

00:07:36   I'm not feeling too confident on, but we'll work it out.

00:07:39   - Yeah, yeah.

00:07:39   No, it's a tough one.

00:07:42   As much as I enjoy your visits to California,

00:07:44   the circumstances of this, it could have been amazing.

00:07:47   And instead it's terrible.

00:07:49   - It had the makings of perfect trip

00:07:51   and went in the exact opposite direction.

00:07:53   We were talking before we started recording today about,

00:07:58   like, as you mentioned to me that last Monday was a blur.

00:08:01   - Oh yeah.

00:08:02   - And I wanted, I don't think we told the story on the show,

00:08:05   but I thought it would be funny to tell it now.

00:08:06   So we recorded last Monday, you were at Apple Park

00:08:09   and I was in my hotel room in San Jose.

00:08:11   But we were over video WebEx.

00:08:14   - Yeah, because it was Apple was running it, right?

00:08:16   So everything's in WebEx, not Zoom that we normally use.

00:08:19   - Or FaceTime.

00:08:20   - And you could have had the video off,

00:08:21   but you had the video on.

00:08:22   - I could see you.

00:08:23   - And you could see me.

00:08:24   - So I thought, you can see me.

00:08:25   But it ended up being very helpful

00:08:27   because what Jason would see is every little while,

00:08:30   I would kind of recoil into myself as I needed a minute.

00:08:33   - It reminded me of when I was a kid,

00:08:36   sometimes they would need to calm the class down

00:08:38   and they'd say, okay, everybody heads down on your desk.

00:08:41   Right, it was like, you put your, fold your arms

00:08:43   and put your head down on your desk and just think,

00:08:46   think quiet thoughts for a little while

00:08:47   and give the teacher a break.

00:08:48   The teacher needs a little break right now, kids.

00:08:51   And that's what you did.

00:08:52   And so I took that as a cue to keep talking.

00:08:54   - Keep talking, just vamp for me for a minute

00:08:57   'cause I'm recharging.

00:08:59   I've also been using my blood oxygen sensor a lot.

00:09:01   So as the, you know, I have a watch. Yeah. You know, I've,

00:09:05   I have many times have been like this feature is pointless. Why did they include

00:09:08   it? Um, I've been using it.

00:09:11   I still say the way that Apple positioned it initially was kind of silly.

00:09:15   You know, it's like, Oh, did you go up mountains a bunch? Um,

00:09:17   but I've been using it a lot for, uh,

00:09:21   checking my, my blood oxygen, because why not? People say you should do that.

00:09:26   So I've been doing it. I can do a little test for you right now.

00:09:28   I was 94% an hour ago and then that's not good is what I've heard.

00:09:31   So I'll do another test, let it go right now.

00:09:33   - The FDA does not approve of you using this

00:09:36   in a medical way, it's more for entertainment purposes.

00:09:38   - Entertainment purposes only.

00:09:40   Ooh, I'm so entertained.

00:09:41   What about blood oxygen?

00:09:43   - Well, if it's low enough,

00:09:43   you'll be very entertained by it.

00:09:45   You'll be like, whoa.

00:09:46   - Yeah, this is providing drama.

00:09:48   96% right now, so we're all good.

00:09:50   - It's all the extra oxygen that's out here

00:09:52   in the outside world.

00:09:54   - It is nice to be outside.

00:09:55   I've not spent a lot of time outside, I tell you that.

00:09:58   WWDC's over.

00:09:59   - It's true.

00:10:01   Oh, that sounds so good.

00:10:02   The bird song.

00:10:03   I don't know if anybody's enjoying this as much as I am,

00:10:05   but like, I'll tell you right now,

00:10:07   like, listeners, if you think to yourself,

00:10:09   oh man, I wish they were inside,

00:10:11   as a public, you spent a lot of time inside,

00:10:13   just take it from me, it's good to be outside.

00:10:15   (laughing)

00:10:16   What was your overall thoughts on WWDC?

00:10:19   - I mean, we talked about this sometime,

00:10:24   a little bit last week,

00:10:25   and I wrote a Macworld column about it last week, actually,

00:10:27   which was basically, this is the way to do it.

00:10:29   And I think that that's been the consensus.

00:10:30   I don't know if Apple is gonna do it this way again.

00:10:33   This was a change for them.

00:10:35   This was trying something different

00:10:38   to see if they could synthesize an in-person event

00:10:42   with online stuff.

00:10:43   And I think they did a really good job.

00:10:44   Like the fact that they did all those sessions on the web,

00:10:48   like they've done the last few years,

00:10:50   and those sessions were good.

00:10:51   I watched a bunch of them this week.

00:10:52   I think that was all good.

00:10:55   I've heard good things about the labs.

00:10:56   They had a Slack where you could go in and talk to people

00:10:59   who were people who work at Apple in key areas

00:11:02   and ask them your questions

00:11:03   and they and their colleagues would chime in with answers.

00:11:07   And that was all the stuff that you could do

00:11:08   and not be in Cupertino at all.

00:11:10   So I think on that front, they have done a really good job.

00:11:14   And remember a few years ago when this first happened,

00:11:17   oh, there's a siren now.

00:11:18   - Uh-oh.

00:11:20   - I swear this is not a plot development

00:11:21   in this fake outside that we're doing.

00:11:23   It's just the regular thing.

00:11:27   So that's so great.

00:11:29   - Okay, I think that we all wondered

00:11:34   whether they were really gonna be able to embrace

00:11:36   doing an online WWDC a few years ago.

00:11:38   - Oh, it's getting so much more aggressive.

00:11:40   - And it was, right, I mean, was like,

00:11:42   well, 'cause COVID happened and there was an emergency,

00:11:46   hmm, the sirens, and they rushed to build an online WWDC

00:11:51   and it turns out they did a pretty good job

00:11:52   and then they were able to iterate a couple of times on it

00:11:55   and they've done a great job.

00:11:56   So I think that part of it is settled.

00:11:59   Like don't, because WWDC is experienced by 99.999,

00:12:04   whatever percent of the Apple's developers, not in person.

00:12:08   So the part, really was the other part.

00:12:11   And that was mostly Monday, although it did,

00:12:14   there was stuff happening on Sunday and on Tuesday,

00:12:16   like overlap with some things and some events and all that.

00:12:19   And in the end, it's not that different,

00:12:23   but it's a little different from what I was kind of

00:12:25   predicting a few weeks ago, which is,

00:12:27   do it as a media event.

00:12:28   Well, they did, but, and it may end up there.

00:12:31   It may end up in the Steve Jobs theater

00:12:33   with media and developers, right?

00:12:35   - It depends on how big they, 'cause I mean,

00:12:38   I don't think they've said the amount of people,

00:12:40   but the images that I've seen,

00:12:41   and even the images Apple posted,

00:12:43   it looked like there was over a thousand people.

00:12:46   And can the Steve Jobs theater hold that many?

00:12:49   - I think it could do 2,000 people.

00:12:50   - 2,000?

00:12:51   Well, then they could do it there then.

00:12:52   - Yeah, but what if-- - I think it's just

00:12:53   occupied way much more physical space, right, than they would have in a theater.

00:12:57   And that's because of COVID. But they could do it in the theater if they felt comfortable,

00:13:02   but they also cannot do it.

00:13:03   Obviously they would prefer to do it in the theater though, right?

00:13:05   I think so.

00:13:06   Because that's the whole point of the theater.

00:13:07   I think so. If I had to guess, my guess would be that next year they'll do in theater, if

00:13:12   they can, they'll do it in the theater and they'll actually have presentations on stage.

00:13:17   For the media event, even if a bunch of it is pre-taped, because a bunch of it was already

00:13:21   pre-taped, but it'll be more of a live event than a viewing party, which is essentially

00:13:26   what it was. But even if they do the viewing party thing again, like, I love the idea that

00:13:30   you get the chance at the trip of the lifetime if you're a developer, and you get to go to

00:13:33   the mothership, you get to see Apple Park, you get to see the ring, you get to see the

00:13:36   whole thing. There's the developer center, like, there's all of these things, and no,

00:13:42   that's for .00001% of Apple developers, but it's a great moment for them, and it also

00:13:50   has great value for Apple to show excited developers, right? Like, I feel like if they

00:13:55   do go back to the Steve Jobs Theater and have some aspect of it live, one of the things

00:13:59   that they're going to do is have all the developers in the front, and they're going to be hyped

00:14:04   up, and they're going to be applauding and shouting and being very excited, and that's

00:14:08   good for the performance of the media event. And let's not kid ourselves, I was noticing

00:14:14   and watching some of it back, State of the Union is for developers. The keynote is not,

00:14:20   Like the developers were not referred to as you

00:14:23   in that presentation, right?

00:14:25   - No, at least they did.

00:14:25   - They were our developers, not you,

00:14:28   because it's not, the keynote's not directed at developers.

00:14:32   - It's for developers as users and all other users, right?

00:14:36   Like, because they did do something in this keynote

00:14:39   that like on reflection I really enjoyed

00:14:40   is they kept talking about there being APIs for everything.

00:14:44   And whether in previous years,

00:14:46   they just haven't had as many APIs,

00:14:48   But like, you know, like focus mode, for example,

00:14:50   there wasn't a focus API last time,

00:14:52   but there is this time and they called it out

00:14:53   and I liked it for that.

00:14:54   I do think as well as your article I've put in the show

00:14:59   and it's also put a great article

00:15:01   that David Smith wrote as well,

00:15:03   just about his whole experience

00:15:04   is kind of crossing the divide as both,

00:15:07   he attended his media,

00:15:09   but did everything else as a developer.

00:15:11   And David spoke so highly of it.

00:15:12   I mean, honestly,

00:15:14   If they do anything that different to last week,

00:15:18   in the future, I'll be really surprised.

00:15:20   It just doesn't seem like they need to go back

00:15:25   to WWDCs in person first,

00:15:29   because there's so much more they could still do.

00:15:32   Like Apple could facilitate meetups

00:15:35   and or the community will be doing it themselves again.

00:15:38   Because now, right, now this happens this year.

00:15:41   Next year, if Apple did the same thing,

00:15:43   it will still attract more people like it used to.

00:15:47   - Right, because people know what it is.

00:15:48   - Yeah, right, because if you were somebody

00:15:51   who would go to WWDC like I would before, right?

00:15:55   Just be in that environment.

00:15:57   You would have seen this year

00:15:59   that people were just getting together a lot.

00:16:02   You're like, "Oh, I wanna be in that."

00:16:04   Now, the question is where it will happen.

00:16:07   - Right, because around Apple Park,

00:16:09   there isn't a lot of stuff.

00:16:11   There aren't a lot of hotels,

00:16:12   there aren't a lot of restaurants,

00:16:14   there's the visitor center. - So that also could occur

00:16:15   in San Jose, right? - Yeah.

00:16:17   - As it has in previous years,

00:16:19   'cause plus San Jose's 15 minutes to Apple Park, right?

00:16:23   So honestly, I expect that to start occurring over time.

00:16:27   I think now I would be disappointed

00:16:29   if Apple brought WWDC back

00:16:31   to the full-on 5,000-person convention,

00:16:33   'cause there kind of isn't a,

00:16:34   I don't know why you would do it.

00:16:36   - Why would you get so many people there

00:16:39   to do one day, 'cause I don't think they're gonna do

00:16:42   or five day thing, right?

00:16:43   Because the online classes are enough.

00:16:44   - The online is so much better

00:16:46   and it enables so many more people to do this.

00:16:50   I think this is the way to go,

00:16:52   but it will still allow for people

00:16:54   who want to be in the environment

00:16:56   can still come to the environment

00:16:58   because there will be ancillary events popping up

00:17:02   just as there always was.

00:17:03   Like I would love to next year

00:17:06   put on live shows again in the Herma Theater, right?

00:17:09   I would love it if we could do that.

00:17:11   And the way that this year went,

00:17:12   except for one notable exception,

00:17:14   would seem to suggest that that could be a possibility

00:17:17   for us, right, to do that again.

00:17:19   - Right, and you end up with sort of ancillary events.

00:17:22   Although I do wonder with Apple facilitating things

00:17:25   like they did, if that might suggest Apple wanting

00:17:29   to have more of it be kind of under their auspices.

00:17:34   And that's-- - Totally fine.

00:17:36   - I mean, the talk show being in the developer center

00:17:38   is an interesting example of that.

00:17:39   - I mean, they always had that page, right,

00:17:40   they blessed certain events.

00:17:41   So like they can just keep doing that

00:17:43   and also they can put on more themselves.

00:17:45   They have the developer center,

00:17:46   they have all that space around Apple Park.

00:17:48   There's stuff that they can do.

00:17:50   I think this is the template for the future of WWDC.

00:17:53   - 100%.

00:17:53   - I don't think it is returning to 2019.

00:17:57   It doesn't make sense to have this big conference.

00:17:59   - No, but you're also right just in a,

00:18:01   the way the world works and the way people are,

00:18:03   you will end up with, knowing what it is now,

00:18:08   you will end up with somebody saying,

00:18:09   I'm gonna do a sidebar conference in San Jose that week.

00:18:14   - Why not? - Or whatever,

00:18:15   and that'll happen. - Because there were developers

00:18:17   that were going anyway, right?

00:18:20   Like I saw a bunch of developers online

00:18:22   who were, before they even knew

00:18:24   that Apple was inviting people,

00:18:26   said I'm gonna be in San Jose that week,

00:18:27   or I'm gonna go, 'cause there were a number of developers

00:18:30   I saw that had already planned to go

00:18:32   and got rejected for tickets and then got tickets,

00:18:37   'cause Apple did like multiple rounds

00:18:38   of sending those passes out.

00:18:40   So people want it, and this is a way to do it

00:18:43   where I think it still continues

00:18:45   to make it pretty democratic feeling.

00:18:47   - And sets the expectation, right?

00:18:49   Which is you're not here for a week,

00:18:51   which is actually, you still have to pay for your flights,

00:18:53   but you don't have to stay for five, six, seven days.

00:18:56   You're here for a concentrated period,

00:18:58   and maybe with the developer center,

00:19:00   you know, it's not just we'll watch the keynote together.

00:19:03   It's you'll watch the keynote together,

00:19:04   and you're gonna meet some people who work at Apple,

00:19:07   and there's gonna be some stuff

00:19:08   in the developer center for you,

00:19:10   and it's gonna be a great two days, two and a half days,

00:19:14   and then you go home.

00:19:15   - They could make a couple of tracks too.

00:19:17   So like, you know, you say like, okay,

00:19:19   we're gonna put on screenings of these 10 sessions

00:19:24   of the whole sort, which we think could like,

00:19:26   and so you can go on like Apple's golden path of WWDC, right?

00:19:30   Where like, they're gonna have,

00:19:31   they're gonna be showing these sessions

00:19:33   in the developer center.

00:19:34   If you're in town, you can come along,

00:19:36   and we'll guide you through three days,

00:19:38   but it's not a different experience than anybody else.

00:19:40   - Right, imagine actually having some in-person sessions

00:19:44   where you could talk to the people in the videos

00:19:46   about what they can ask and follow up questions.

00:19:48   There's stuff they could do,

00:19:49   but most of it's gonna need to happen online,

00:19:51   and that's fine, but they can create an experience

00:19:53   that is special for the developers

00:19:55   who are lucky enough to have it,

00:19:56   who will presumably cycle through

00:19:58   and not be the same group every year,

00:19:59   which is why I said it's an experience of a lifetime.

00:20:02   It's like, that was the year I went in person.

00:20:05   and then they're useful as part of the show as well.

00:20:09   And so that's a good combination because it is a show.

00:20:12   They're putting it on, having the developers there

00:20:14   shows the public that Apple cares about its developers,

00:20:17   which is important because there's a lot of stuff going on

00:20:20   that is controversial about Apple

00:20:23   and how it treats its developers.

00:20:24   So having that as a profession of Apple's love

00:20:27   for its developers is good for Apple.

00:20:29   And it's also good for the event itself to be,

00:20:32   like I said, it's a much more receptive studio audience.

00:20:35   The Macworld Expo crowds and the WWDC keynote crowds

00:20:39   were always the best in terms of stagecraft

00:20:42   because they were, 'cause the media is,

00:20:45   we're kinda not supposed to clap and stuff, right?

00:20:46   - I hate that thought, by the way, like,

00:20:49   'cause I guess I'm media now, right?

00:20:51   So close, nearly got there, but at least, yeah.

00:20:54   - Technically you can still say you're not

00:20:56   until the next time. - But if I went,

00:20:57   I would be excited, I'll be clapping and sharing,

00:20:59   like, I don't know why there is an expectation

00:21:03   the media must be jaded.

00:21:04   Like it doesn't make sense to me.

00:21:06   - No, I think the idea is that you're objective

00:21:07   and you're not there to root, you're there to cover it.

00:21:09   - So what?

00:21:10   This is where like I--

00:21:10   - I threw my arms up with the touchdown thing

00:21:12   when they did the windowing on the iPad though.

00:21:14   I did do that, but that's about it.

00:21:15   - I come from a different age.

00:21:17   Where like I'm independent.

00:21:19   - Yeah. - Right?

00:21:20   Like I didn't, I don't work for IDG or whatever.

00:21:23   Like I'm just a guy who has a bunch of podcasts.

00:21:26   Not because he wants to be a journalist,

00:21:28   but it's because he's an enthusiast.

00:21:30   - It's a cultural thing,

00:21:31   but it's always gonna be there, right?

00:21:32   which is why for the media events, pure media events,

00:21:36   the crowd is seated with VIPs who are like friends of Apple,

00:21:40   who Apple has invited, and Apple employees,

00:21:42   and they do the cheering, right?

00:21:44   And my feeling is that that actually got

00:21:46   a little over-aggressive in the last few years.

00:21:48   Well, the beauty of this is you've got an excited audience

00:21:51   that's gonna cheer who are the developers.

00:21:53   So you bring them in and it's that much better.

00:21:56   And if there are crowd shots that show people

00:21:59   and you're like, "Ah, there's my buddy who went,"

00:22:01   That's also all to the benefit of this.

00:22:03   So yeah, let's do this again.

00:22:05   Except for the one very specific thing

00:22:07   that we shouldn't do again. - Let's not do it

00:22:08   exactly the same.

00:22:09   - No, but similar.

00:22:10   - But very, no, no, similar, not for me.

00:22:12   - No. - Very similar

00:22:14   for everyone else. - Okay.

00:22:15   - Exact 180% different percent.

00:22:18   - 180%. - 180%.

00:22:19   - 180% different for me.

00:22:21   - Okay, all right.

00:22:23   - This episode is brought to you by Mode

00:22:24   and their new keyboard, the Sonnet.

00:22:26   Over the past couple of years,

00:22:28   I've gotten super deep into the mechanical keyboard hobby.

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00:22:35   themselves.

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00:22:41   that that keyboard will perform exactly how I want it to.

00:22:44   I've also really come to appreciate the joy of putting these things together myself and

00:22:47   being able to use something that my own hands had a role in creating.

00:22:51   Over my time in the hobby, my favourite keyboards have been designed and manufactured by MODE.

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00:23:35   Currently mode have two keyboards available for pre-order, the 80 which has a 2 month

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00:23:52   They also sent me an early unit of the Sonnet to check out, which I cannot wait to get home

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00:24:57   Mode, it's time to rethink keyboards.

00:25:01   Thanks to Mode for the support of this show and Relay FM.

00:25:05   So observations since last week.

00:25:09   What kind of stuff have you been thinking about?

00:25:11   What kind of stuff has been bouncing around in your brain?

00:25:14   What sessions have you watched?

00:25:15   That kind of stuff.

00:25:16   Yeah, I watched a bunch of sessions.

00:25:20   Not as many, so here's the way that I look at sessions is so many sessions are Apple

00:25:27   evangelizing developers on what they need to do to, you know, follow Apple's guidelines.

00:25:34   And the truth is that is not what I'm looking for.

00:25:38   What I, and nor, it's not for me, right?

00:25:40   That goes without saying, it's not for me.

00:25:42   What I'm looking for is are there things I can glean about new things that Apple is doing

00:25:47   that by watching the developer session,

00:25:50   they explain how it works and what it does.

00:25:53   And I go, "Oh, that's how that works."

00:25:54   And then they're like, "Okay, let's do this in Swift."

00:25:56   And I think, "Hm, goodbye."

00:25:58   - Time for me to leave.

00:25:58   - Next session.

00:26:00   So I watched a bunch, especially on Tuesday,

00:26:05   I watched a bunch of desktop class iPad related sessions,

00:26:10   which I thought was really interesting.

00:26:11   And I wrote up on six colors.

00:26:14   It is, we talked about it last week

00:26:16   in that part of it is Apple sort of saying to its own app developers internally,

00:26:20   you need to not have, you know, restore those features that are on the Mac but

00:26:26   not on the iPad because you didn't want to put them on the iPhone back in the day

00:26:30   and consider that more. But it is, interestingly, also an OS update

00:26:36   in iPad OS 16 with the idea of giving more tools. So like there are three

00:26:41   different browsers that you can choose for your window, basically the top of the

00:26:44   a window that do different things, whether you're a browser

00:26:48   or like a file-based app, or there's a third one too,

00:26:53   a navigation-based, hierarchical navigation-based app.

00:26:57   They have these three different kind of toolbar styles

00:27:01   or something, and then that have like the name of the,

00:27:04   like the document one, the documents kind of to the left

00:27:07   like it is on Mac OS now.

00:27:10   There's a file menu essentially under the file name

00:27:14   that you can click on the file name

00:27:16   and it's a new dropdown menu

00:27:18   that lets you do things that are file related.

00:27:20   Like they didn't call it,

00:27:21   I don't know if they call it the file menu,

00:27:23   but Mac users will be familiar with it as the file menu.

00:27:26   - Yeah, in your icon, your article,

00:27:28   you've got an image and it's like,

00:27:29   it's got a little chevron,

00:27:31   whatever you call it, little carrot.

00:27:32   - Yeah, next to the file name.

00:27:34   - Duplicate, rename, move, export,

00:27:36   like it's a bunch of actions you can perform on the file.

00:27:39   - Right, and so, and there are some basic ones there,

00:27:42   like renaming in line,

00:27:44   but also you can put your own commands there for your app.

00:27:46   So it's basically a file menu.

00:27:48   And then there are toolbars that moves it to the left.

00:27:51   So then there's this toolbar in the center

00:27:53   and what developers can do,

00:27:54   this is the kind of stuff you glean from the sessions.

00:27:57   What the developer can do is say,

00:27:59   here's like on the Mac, here's my default toolbar.

00:28:02   And here's some other things you can add to the toolbar.

00:28:04   And these things are grouped together

00:28:05   and this thing can't be taken off the toolbar.

00:28:08   And these things are optional.

00:28:09   And then anything that doesn't fit in the toolbar

00:28:13   basically overflows into the little, you know,

00:28:15   more menu off in the corner.

00:28:17   But it's Apple defining saying like,

00:28:20   this is how you do all of the toolbar stuff on iPad.

00:28:24   And it's not quite a menu bar, right?

00:28:27   'Cause they didn't introduce a menu bar with iOS 16.

00:28:29   They could have, but they didn't.

00:28:32   But they're putting things that you might find

00:28:34   in a menu bar in other places.

00:28:37   - That was after I was 15.

00:28:39   That was the expectation.

00:28:40   We were all talking about that constantly, right?

00:28:42   menu bar on iPadOS. - Menu bar mode.

00:28:44   That they could have easily in this mode in fact,

00:28:47   done put things in the menu bar.

00:28:48   - Because it was the introduction of that globe key thing.

00:28:52   - Right, which shows you commands.

00:28:54   - Where they basically replicated the menu bar

00:28:56   like what you'd see on Catalyst.

00:28:58   - They're really dipping their toe in the water there, right?

00:29:00   Where you've got the globe key and command key thing

00:29:02   which will bring up your menus for the app

00:29:04   but it's not a menu bar.

00:29:05   And now you've got these other things in that toolbar

00:29:08   that are menu-like but not a menu bar

00:29:12   and they're attached to the individual windows,

00:29:14   it is, it will come as no surprise to you, Myke,

00:29:16   that it turns out if you do this on your iPad app,

00:29:20   makes it a better Mac app too, through Catalyst, right?

00:29:23   That was one of the selling points they made

00:29:25   is all of these choices, sort of like,

00:29:27   the toolbar becomes a Mac toolbar item

00:29:29   when you're on the Mac.

00:29:31   - Oh, okay.

00:29:32   - So if you're trying to improve your iPad app

00:29:34   to make it more Mac-like and you're using Catalyst,

00:29:37   you actually are also making your Catalyst app

00:29:39   more Mac-like in the process.

00:29:41   and it's part of their strategy of like,

00:29:43   take something from iOS and make it an iPad thing

00:29:46   and then bring it to the Mac

00:29:47   and you can pick up all these other kinds of features.

00:29:49   So they're making an effort

00:29:51   with a bunch of the desktop class stuff around it

00:29:55   to just sort of restore interface things

00:29:58   that just weren't there on the iPad.

00:30:01   And yeah, I think it's part and parcel

00:30:03   with the stage manager stuff that they're doing.

00:30:06   But interesting that they chose to give it a name

00:30:10   and call it out in a different way.

00:30:13   And for a developer conference, right?

00:30:15   They're trying to extol the virtues of doing this.

00:30:18   They know that most of their iOS apps

00:30:19   are not particularly iPad adapted

00:30:22   and are not using features like this.

00:30:24   And they're really, this is one of those cases

00:30:25   where they are really trying to evangelize developers

00:30:28   to like, come on, make a toolbar, join us.

00:30:32   - My concern of a lot of this kind of iPad stuff is

00:30:35   in the past, a lot of the productivity apps.

00:30:39   So they had these features, right?

00:30:40   Like I think about Windows, multiple app Windows

00:30:44   or whatever.

00:30:45   Apple's apps do them, a lot of third parties,

00:30:48   smaller apps do it, but the big guns don't do it.

00:30:53   - Right. - Right?

00:30:54   Or it takes them a year, 18 months to add this kind of stuff

00:30:58   I still wanna have multiple Windows and Google Docs.

00:31:02   I don't think that's ever gonna happen at this point.

00:31:04   - Yeah, I think the challenge is with Google Docs

00:31:06   or with Microsoft Office, you've got something

00:31:08   that is sort of, they built their own thing to do it.

00:31:12   But all of the kind of smaller apps

00:31:16   that have built their own toolbar system or whatever,

00:31:19   I think you'll see some improvement there

00:31:21   where they'll be like, oh,

00:31:22   now I'll just use Apple's thing instead.

00:31:24   But you're right, the big ones,

00:31:26   are they going to embrace this

00:31:27   or are they just gonna ignore it

00:31:28   like they've ignored everything else?

00:31:30   - But then the other thing is,

00:31:31   all I really want is Apple to make

00:31:33   pure, true real-time collaboration

00:31:36   in one of their documents apps, right?

00:31:38   so we could move our Google docs to pages or whatever.

00:31:41   - Well, I think that was one of the things

00:31:43   that I added to our little show document here

00:31:44   is that Apple spent a lot of time talking

00:31:46   about collaboration features

00:31:47   and in the conversation over this past week about it,

00:31:50   I've seen some people be really enthusiastic about it

00:31:53   that feel like that Google and Microsoft

00:31:55   are playing in this space and that where is Apple

00:31:57   and does Apple even care

00:31:59   and people who use Microsoft Teams

00:32:02   and or whatever else are like,

00:32:04   oh, it's great that Apple is doing this.

00:32:06   I admit to being a little more skeptical about this

00:32:10   because Apple loves to say,

00:32:12   oh, look, we have come up with our solution

00:32:14   that will let everybody collaborate in real time,

00:32:17   but it only ever works on Apple's platforms, right?

00:32:19   And sometimes there's a web version of it,

00:32:21   but really it's for people who are fully committed

00:32:24   to Apple platforms and so many businesses aren't.

00:32:26   That they just like are, we're gonna use pages now.

00:32:29   That's just what we're gonna use

00:32:31   as opposed to Word or Google Docs.

00:32:33   There are not a lot of organizations

00:32:35   that I think are willing to do that.

00:32:36   So I look at those collaboration things and I think good,

00:32:39   maybe we would use them under certain circumstances.

00:32:43   - I'd love to, but this every time I've tried it

00:32:46   and I've tried it so many times,

00:32:48   it's like the collaboration that currently exists in notes

00:32:52   where it's like all of our changes are gonna get synced,

00:32:54   but when?

00:32:55   - When, yeah, exactly.

00:32:58   And so the fact that they are trying to do things

00:33:01   more real time with messages and FaceTime

00:33:04   and stuff like that, I think it's all admirable,

00:33:06   but I'm still left with wondering if they're actually,

00:33:10   people are actually gonna use these collaboration tools,

00:33:14   not because they're not good, 'cause maybe they are,

00:33:17   but because I just, any organization that would standardize

00:33:22   on Apple collaboration tools is an organization

00:33:28   that is 100% Apple.

00:33:30   And, you know, Apple,

00:33:32   unless Apple is going to be like Microsoft or Google,

00:33:35   and I don't think they ever are,

00:33:37   and say, we're also going to make

00:33:39   all of our collaboration tools available

00:33:41   on all the other platforms, right?

00:33:44   That's not why it exists.

00:33:46   So it makes it a hard sell, even if it is good.

00:33:50   And, you know, I share your skepticism of like, you know,

00:33:53   could we just, could our show documents go in

00:33:55   some other collaborative tool that Apple does?

00:33:59   I mean, we'll try it out, but--

00:34:00   - It would work for people who were starting something new,

00:34:04   but considering we already have Google Docs,

00:34:07   for me, it has to meet Google Docs's core functionality.

00:34:10   - Right.

00:34:11   - Before, and like the fact, oh,

00:34:14   runs on Apple platforms only,

00:34:15   not a problem for me in my business, right?

00:34:18   But, you know, like if I now decided

00:34:21   I wanted to reorganize our show document

00:34:23   and moved everything around, you're on your laptop,

00:34:25   you see it exactly as I'm doing it.

00:34:27   that has become now something that I rely on.

00:34:30   And so for me to consider wanting to move to something else,

00:34:33   it has to do that.

00:34:34   But I do like the look of their other collaboration stuff.

00:34:37   Shared tab groups is fun.

00:34:39   - Yeah, is that gonna happen?

00:34:41   Are we gonna start having like a little shared tab groups

00:34:43   for all our podcasts?

00:34:44   - Why not?

00:34:45   - We'll upgrade tab group where instead of sending you links,

00:34:47   I just opened tabs.

00:34:48   - I mean, I'm a huge tab group user.

00:34:49   I have seven tab groups that I use.

00:34:53   So I'm currently in my recording tab group,

00:34:56   which has all the things in my recording.

00:34:58   And what I like about that is, so say for example,

00:35:01   I'm on my iPad in the morning,

00:35:02   I can have my recording tab group open,

00:35:04   have all my tabs open, I can be editing the document.

00:35:06   When I then sit down on my iMac in the evening

00:35:08   to record a view, it's just where I left off.

00:35:11   And like, I love it as like a persistent thing.

00:35:14   And then I can go to my like,

00:35:16   I then have just a general relay FM tab group,

00:35:18   which has all of the tabs I need for publishing.

00:35:21   So I switch over to there and do all the stuff I need.

00:35:24   I'm a big fan of this feature.

00:35:25   I'm happy they're adding more to it.

00:35:27   And I like the idea of shared tab groups.

00:35:29   Like I have a vacation tab group

00:35:31   where I keep ideas for vacations.

00:35:33   Adina should be shared on that.

00:35:35   - Yeah, I have thought about that as a perfect example

00:35:39   as for family things, I can really see it

00:35:42   because this is, just as we all knew 10 years ago,

00:35:45   but Apple didn't know that perhaps partners

00:35:48   wanna share their photo libraries with each other.

00:35:51   We also have things like going on vacations

00:35:54   or other shopping for appliances or whatever it is, right?

00:35:57   That you are collaborating on

00:35:59   and having a shared space to do that

00:36:01   would be kind of nice.

00:36:03   So, and honestly, to take it back

00:36:07   to collaboration features in general,

00:36:10   that's where Apple has some power

00:36:14   because there are small businesses, yes,

00:36:16   but there are family groups that are all Apple.

00:36:20   And if Apple, and you're like,

00:36:23   "Oh, well, business collaboration doesn't make sense

00:36:25   for families."

00:36:26   Well, some collaboration does,

00:36:27   maybe it's not the same kind of business document

00:36:29   collaboration as you're thinking of,

00:36:31   but some of those things actually do make sense

00:36:34   for families or for very, very small work groups.

00:36:38   But I just, on the larger scale,

00:36:41   I keep coming back to the fact that even if Apple

00:36:43   made literally the best collaborative things,

00:36:45   we might adopt it.

00:36:46   But would it be a game changing kind of thing?

00:36:48   I just have a hard time because of what Apple is trying

00:36:52   to do and who their tools are for,

00:36:54   I have a hard time seeing it.

00:36:55   So when I see them demo it and they're like,

00:36:57   oh boy, everybody's got to get on board here

00:37:00   on the collaboration train.

00:37:01   'Cause we're doing business collaboration.

00:37:03   Like look at all these happy business people

00:37:05   who are doing this.

00:37:06   It's like, okay, but who is that?

00:37:09   Who actually, what company actually is that?

00:37:11   That's doing that level of collaboration.

00:37:14   And it's Apple's ideal company

00:37:15   because they're all on Apple products.

00:37:17   But the reality, it doesn't really fit that.

00:37:20   - No.

00:37:21   continuity camera you wrote about that. Yeah, so continuity camera we saw the demo right

00:37:27   there was more detail in there were there were some WWDC sessions about it and first

00:37:37   off we were talking about camo and Sherlocking of camo which is a great app that does this

00:37:43   I I believe we've already seen that Apple is not willing to go to the level that camo

00:37:50   is in terms of fiddly settings. So there are going to be reasons to use camo. In fact,

00:37:54   I wonder if the APIs for this thing will make camo be able to transition into being a more

00:37:59   fiddly settings for continuity camera kind of utility in the future. But like, this camo

00:38:05   you can crop your picture manually. And remember our complaints about the center stage camera

00:38:11   on the studio display and how Apple doesn't let you, Myke, change the refresh rate manually

00:38:17   your power in the UK and how I can't say, "Can I get it a little bit tighter so you

00:38:24   don't see the edges of my green screen?" And Apple just seems to not want anyone to ever

00:38:29   do anything at that level of detail with their camera. Camo will let you do that.

00:38:33   - Is there an API though? - There is, but I don't know if it's for this.

00:38:40   - Just to get the feed. - Just to get the feed from it. Maybe so,

00:38:44   So this is my frustration though.

00:38:46   I'm gonna say webcam settings is still a thing

00:38:48   that they need to offer.

00:38:50   Even though that might be a third party opportunity

00:38:52   because like I look at this thing and I think,

00:38:55   well, yeah, but camera will be the one that lets me crop it

00:38:58   so that my green screen doesn't show

00:39:00   and this doesn't do that.

00:39:01   So there are some limitations there.

00:39:04   In terms of the actual implementation,

00:39:08   first off it's this idea of a system camera,

00:39:11   which we have not had before,

00:39:12   which is like what is the default camera that is in use right now and Apple is

00:39:16   sort of assumed essentially

00:39:18   that you only have one camera most of the time and nobody it's an edge case and

00:39:21   nobody cares.

00:39:22   Now there is this system camera so you've got

00:39:26   cameras that are attached to your computer and then you've got the system

00:39:29   camera and so let me give you an example of this.

00:39:31   So I have a new iPhone

00:39:33   or new, it doesn't matter, I have an iPhone running

00:39:36   iOS 16 and I've got a Mac

00:39:39   that's running Ventura

00:39:41   and I bring, and they're both logged into the same Apple ID

00:39:44   and I bring-- - Oh, I was listening

00:39:44   to MacPow users, by the way. - Yeah.

00:39:46   - David Sparks, also a hater of Ventura,

00:39:48   so you're not on your own.

00:39:49   - Okay, good, yeah, it's not a great place.

00:39:50   - I'm just saying, just in case,

00:39:51   I don't know if you've got any Ventura haters

00:39:53   in your comments. - No, I haven't.

00:39:54   Although, I didn't even think about, like,

00:39:57   Ace Ventura Pet Detective and stuff like that,

00:39:59   but I was like, whatever.

00:40:00   Okay, so you bring the-- - I saw a great joke.

00:40:02   The idea, you know, you could do the lookup.

00:40:05   - Mm-hmm. - macOS Ventura Pet Detection.

00:40:08   I wish I could remember where I saw this joke,

00:40:10   - I thought it was hilarious.

00:40:12   - All right.

00:40:13   - Just had to share it.

00:40:14   - Okay, so continuity camera,

00:40:16   you bring your phone close to your Mac

00:40:17   and at that moment when they're both logged

00:40:20   into the same Apple ID,

00:40:21   basically your phone is now among the available cameras

00:40:26   for your Mac.

00:40:27   So you could switch to it and use it in Zoom or whatever.

00:40:32   And this is actually good because one of the uses

00:40:36   of continuity camera is not as a webcam for your face.

00:40:39   it's like a camera for you to show something

00:40:41   you're demonstrating, right?

00:40:42   Like when the Mac Studio came out,

00:40:44   Dan and I did a live stream

00:40:45   and I had an iPhone with camo attached to my Mac

00:40:49   so that I could like show the Mac Studio

00:40:52   and the studio display using a handheld camera.

00:40:54   So you can do that and it's like a camera on your Mac.

00:40:57   However, continuity camera has this other thing

00:41:00   where if it's perpendicular to the table

00:41:03   and not moving, not shaking,

00:41:07   it's basically using sensors to detect, am I mounted?

00:41:12   Am I mounted somewhere?

00:41:15   And if it is, then it becomes the system camera

00:41:20   and takes over for your webcam.

00:41:23   (laughing)

00:41:23   So--

00:41:24   - That's so complicated.

00:41:25   Why can't I just tell it?

00:41:27   - Well, this is the idea is you can tell it.

00:41:29   - Okay.

00:41:30   - But what they wanna do is they wanna make it magical,

00:41:32   right?

00:41:33   So they wanna make it so that if you get

00:41:33   one of these Belkin accessories or whatever,

00:41:36   and you drop your phone into it right behind your max display

00:41:41   and you let go, it just magically goes bloop.

00:41:47   Now we're on the magic camera.

00:41:48   - So if I had my phone in a dock.

00:41:51   - No, because it would be,

00:41:54   I think it's actually sensing that it's on its side

00:41:57   and steady.

00:41:58   But if you had a sideways dock, maybe it would do this.

00:42:02   It's weird.

00:42:03   We'll see how it works in practice.

00:42:04   I think what they wanna do is they wanna use the sensors

00:42:07   in the iPhone to basically detect that it's in webcam mode.

00:42:10   And when it's in webcam mode, it just flips over

00:42:13   so that you don't have to go into zoom

00:42:15   and change your camera.

00:42:16   It just changes your camera automatically

00:42:18   when you enter that mode.

00:42:20   So that's a little weird, but it doesn't,

00:42:23   and whether you'll have to use that feature or not,

00:42:27   I don't know, but it is separate from the idea

00:42:30   that when it's close, you can use it as a camera.

00:42:32   It is a camera input and you could select it and then--

00:42:35   - I guess the benefit,

00:42:37   pretty much every single video app

00:42:39   shows you your camera view before you start, right?

00:42:42   So if for some reason your iPhone camera turns on,

00:42:46   you could just switch it to your whatever camera

00:42:49   before you start. - Sure, real time follow up,

00:42:50   Matt Cassanelli, hi Matt, listening in the chat room,

00:42:55   says he tried it on his sideways dock and it does work.

00:42:57   That is-- - So that means

00:42:58   it also doesn't work. - Yeah, 'cause it wants

00:43:00   to be, what it's sensing is that the phone is on its side

00:43:03   and steady.

00:43:04   And then it's like, oh, I've been mounted.

00:43:08   Now I'm going to use this as the primary.

00:43:10   So it's pretty wild, but it's an interesting thing.

00:43:13   So the other thing obviously is the desktop,

00:43:18   desk view, right?

00:43:20   Which is using the wide, ultra wide.

00:43:22   It's only the ultra wide camera.

00:43:24   And it sees so much that it's mounted on your computer,

00:43:27   but it sees the desk in front of you.

00:43:30   And so they've done this thing where they're de-skewing it

00:43:32   and they're rotating it and they're making it available.

00:43:35   So the details here are fascinating.

00:43:37   One is it's an app.

00:43:38   (laughs)

00:43:42   And the reason it's an app is because they think

00:43:46   the use case for this is in a video conference

00:43:49   as the equivalent of a screen share.

00:43:52   So they made it an app so that you can share it,

00:43:56   share the window of the desk view as a screen share.

00:44:01   So if you're on Zoom,

00:44:02   it'll be your face will still be there,

00:44:04   but also now you're sharing your screen,

00:44:06   except it's actually you're sharing your desk.

00:44:08   Are you following me?

00:44:11   - So to get the desk view,

00:44:15   there is an app inventor called what, desk view?

00:44:18   - Desk view.

00:44:19   - And when you open that,

00:44:20   the continuity camera is running,

00:44:23   it shows the desk view.

00:44:24   So then in Zoom, you could be like, share my screen

00:44:28   and choose desk view.

00:44:29   - And choose desk view and then it'll share your desk.

00:44:31   - What I will say, whilst that sounds super weird,

00:44:33   it at least, what I like about it is they could easily

00:44:36   just say, we have an API for desk view.

00:44:39   We want everyone to adopt it.

00:44:40   Or like, hey, check out desk view in FaceTime.

00:44:44   It works in, at least this way,

00:44:45   it shows that they have thought to themselves, right?

00:44:48   Like what is the way that we can build this feature

00:44:52   that every single video conferencing tool can use it.

00:44:56   - Exactly, and video conferencing tools

00:44:59   don't like two cameras, right?

00:45:01   So you could switch and I'm unclear

00:45:03   if DeskView is also available as a camera.

00:45:06   There is an API, so if it's not, you know,

00:45:10   because there's an API, I imagine they're talking to Zoom

00:45:12   and Webex and all those companies about supporting this

00:45:15   and being like, oh, now we've got a button

00:45:16   to show your DeskView.

00:45:18   But if you don't have something like that,

00:45:21   you can just share the window and you'll see it.

00:45:23   I don't know if it's a camera so you could switch to it,

00:45:25   but yeah, it's them saying this is used more

00:45:28   like document sharing, like a screen share,

00:45:31   than it is like a camera,

00:45:32   because would you normally, without any context,

00:45:35   but you and I might wanna switch to the desk view.

00:45:39   And so I think that's a,

00:45:41   I don't know the answer to that question.

00:45:42   The other thing that is a little tidbit

00:45:44   that I wanted to mention that didn't come out

00:45:46   in the keynote, I believe, is that

00:45:49   So center stage uses the ultra wide,

00:45:54   desk view uses the ultra wide.

00:45:57   If you're in center stage and desk view at the same time,

00:46:00   yes, it is taking the same image

00:46:04   and simultaneously cropping and altering two parts of it

00:46:09   to generate your center stage and the desk view,

00:46:12   which is wild.

00:46:13   But what is even wilder is if you're not using center stage,

00:46:17   - Then it's using center stage in continuity camera.

00:46:21   - Yes.

00:46:21   - So, like, so you can use--

00:46:23   - Yes, continuity camera includes center stage.

00:46:26   - And it's using the iPhone's ultra wide camera to do that.

00:46:29   - And it's using the ultra wide camera.

00:46:30   - Even though the iPhone currently doesn't do that.

00:46:34   - Exactly, iPhone doesn't do center stage,

00:46:36   but it does in continuity camera mode.

00:46:39   - Okay.

00:46:40   - So, so if you're not using center stage though,

00:46:42   it uses the wide camera.

00:46:44   - Yes.

00:46:45   - And so in that scenario, if you're using desk view

00:46:46   and continuity camera,

00:46:49   it's using different iPhone cameras.

00:46:53   It's using one iPhone camera to do the document view

00:46:56   and it's using a different iPhone camera

00:46:58   to do your portrait view.

00:46:59   - Which is what I assumed.

00:47:00   And that's what I think everybody had just assumed

00:47:03   that that was all it did.

00:47:04   What you're saying is you can say,

00:47:06   turn on center stage mode.

00:47:08   - Yes.

00:47:09   And then it's doing, if you can imagine it,

00:47:11   like two different machine learning algorithms

00:47:13   are eating different portions of the camera.

00:47:16   - I don't know if this is true,

00:47:17   if this is an urban myth or not,

00:47:18   but it's one of those things you hear

00:47:20   that certain fighter pilots are trained

00:47:22   to use both of their eyes independently

00:47:23   so they can look at different consoles.

00:47:25   I don't know if you've ever heard this.

00:47:26   I've heard this, I don't know if that's true,

00:47:28   but that's how I imagine it.

00:47:29   Like the iPhone, it's using one lens

00:47:31   and it's looking in two different directions.

00:47:33   - That's it, it's giving itself kind of like a lazy eye.

00:47:36   - That's wild.

00:47:37   - It's pretty wild.

00:47:39   And then there's a portrait mode,

00:47:40   which they talked about there, which is,

00:47:42   again, essentially they're just adding features

00:47:44   that they already have built somewhere

00:47:46   and they're putting them in.

00:47:48   - The lighting one is fun

00:47:50   'cause that's like the first really, I think,

00:47:52   good use case of the portrait lighting effects.

00:47:54   - Yeah, is if you're in a badly lit video chat

00:47:57   and now you don't need a ring light, I guess,

00:48:00   'cause you can use portrait lighting,

00:48:02   which essentially is using object detection to,

00:48:06   or depending on the camera, I suppose,

00:48:08   it's actually using a depth map

00:48:11   and then it's pulling you out and lightening you

00:48:13   and it's darkening the area behind you.

00:48:16   - There's just something so funny about faking a ring light.

00:48:20   Why don't you just lighten the whole image?

00:48:23   I just something funny about that to me of like,

00:48:26   oh, is your image too dark?

00:48:27   We will pretend you have a light on you.

00:48:28   - The argument is that if you're backlit,

00:48:31   you can't lighten the whole image.

00:48:33   What you really wanna do is lighten

00:48:34   the dark part of the image

00:48:36   and darken the light part of the image

00:48:38   to get them to be a little bit closer.

00:48:40   But yeah, this is all another example.

00:48:43   I mean, look, I don't wanna say this

00:48:46   to belittle continuity camera,

00:48:47   'cause I actually think this is a brilliant feature.

00:48:49   And the number one thing about it is that unlike Camo,

00:48:53   Apple has the home field advantage.

00:48:56   And so Apple gets to come up with that feature

00:48:58   that it just detects that you want it and it turns it on.

00:49:01   Whereas Camo, you've got to like launch the app

00:49:03   and then turn it around and the screen has to stay on

00:49:07   and all this stuff.

00:49:08   And Apple doesn't have to behave that way.

00:49:09   Apple can just say, now it's a camera, it's magic.

00:49:13   And that's all great.

00:49:15   However, beyond that, which is a great detail,

00:49:18   when you look at the details of the features

00:49:19   of Continuity Camera, it is another example

00:49:22   of Apple recycling all of its features

00:49:24   into various products, which they have to do.

00:49:26   They have how many OSs now?

00:49:27   They have to do it.

00:49:28   But this is a perfect example where it's like,

00:49:31   oh, we've got lots of image effects.

00:49:32   What effects do you need?

00:49:33   And they're like, okay, I'll take center stage

00:49:35   and portrait mode and portrait lighting.

00:49:40   And can you get me something that shows me

00:49:45   what's on my desk?

00:49:46   Okay, yeah, all right, I'll take that too.

00:49:47   And that's what it is.

00:49:48   So one new feature, three recycled features.

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00:52:08   I did not, and I can see Tony in the chat saying,

00:52:12   "Myke knew that before they changed the spelling

00:52:14   of their name."

00:52:15   It used to be U-U-N-I.

00:52:16   - Oh.

00:52:16   Weird. - Which,

00:52:18   I don't remember, I think it might have been in,

00:52:22   I meant something in--

00:52:24   - Finnish or something?

00:52:25   Finnish or Danish, I don't remember.

00:52:27   And I don't want to offend Christian by saying

00:52:29   the wrong one, so I'm not going to give it to anything.

00:52:31   - All right.

00:52:32   - So you mentioned earlier on that you quote,

00:52:34   "Mistakenly installed Ventura."

00:52:36   - Yep.

00:52:37   - What does that mean?

00:52:38   What does that mean exactly?

00:52:39   - Whoops, I did it again.

00:52:39   - Whoopsie.

00:52:40   - So, okay.

00:52:42   Here's a, maybe the experts out there can tell me

00:52:46   what I did wrong here, but what I'd like to do

00:52:49   is install the beta on a new volume on my computer, right?

00:52:54   right so I can keep my existing Monterey installation and then also have Ventura

00:53:02   and I can reboot into Ventura because although that's not ideal because you

00:53:06   really want to live with it I also record podcasts and audio hijack which I

00:53:11   use to do everything including this rogue amoeba has had enough with your

00:53:15   beta testing they do they disable you uni uni is finished for oven if you're

00:53:21   and upgrade plus subscriber.

00:53:23   You don't know why I just said that, but there you go.

00:53:26   - All right, thank you.

00:53:27   (laughing)

00:53:28   - It's a correction from the ad, okay.

00:53:30   - An ad you didn't hear, but pizza is tasty.

00:53:33   This episode is also brought to you by pizza,

00:53:36   which is tasty.

00:53:37   - Sorry.

00:53:39   - What was I even saying?

00:53:40   Oh, so-

00:53:41   - Rogue Amoeba.

00:53:41   - Yeah, Rogue Amoeba has had it with your complaints

00:53:44   about their apps not running in the betas.

00:53:46   They just disable them.

00:53:47   They, if you try to launch their apps in a beta,

00:53:50   they're like, this app doesn't work in the beta.

00:53:52   They just have built that in and I rely on them.

00:53:55   So I can't do that.

00:53:57   So the problem is the way Apple distributes the beta

00:54:01   is via a development profile,

00:54:02   a developer profile that you download.

00:54:04   That's a basically,

00:54:06   it changes where the software update server looks.

00:54:09   - Yeah.

00:54:09   - It looks at different software update server

00:54:12   and there's one for public beta.

00:54:13   There's also one for developer beta.

00:54:15   And when you press, so I did that and I restarted

00:54:18   'cause I thought, well, I'm gonna do this

00:54:19   and then I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna download it

00:54:22   or whatever.

00:54:22   And then I got distracted, there was a lot going on.

00:54:25   And I came back and there was a thing that was like,

00:54:28   like, do you want me to go ahead with this or whatever?

00:54:31   And I'm like, sure.

00:54:32   And then I went, no.

00:54:33   - Oh, 'cause that machine, I see.

00:54:36   - And it doesn't update.

00:54:37   - Yes.

00:54:38   - To the existing system.

00:54:39   - Yup.

00:54:40   - So my complaint to Apple.

00:54:41   - This is why I always at a certain point,

00:54:42   get rid of that.

00:54:43   Like I get rid of it from my iPad or whatever.

00:54:44   - Yeah, so my complaint to Apple, and again,

00:54:47   correct me if there's another way to do this,

00:54:48   but I want to download it and install it

00:54:53   on a different target.

00:54:55   That's what I wanna do.

00:54:57   And I don't think you can.

00:54:59   I think the way I ended up doing this last year

00:55:02   was making a new target, installing the current OS

00:55:05   at a blank form on that target, booting into that OS,

00:55:10   putting the profile on there,

00:55:13   and then updating it to the beta.

00:55:15   But that's dumb.

00:55:15   I just did two OS installs when I could have done one.

00:55:18   So that would be my complaint,

00:55:20   is it ought to be easier to get an install target

00:55:23   that is not just an upgrade to the existing one.

00:55:28   Anyway, it was too late.

00:55:29   I did it and I thought that I was gonna be able

00:55:32   to swerve away and I did not swerve away,

00:55:34   at which point my system has been updated to the beta,

00:55:38   my audio recording stuff no longer works.

00:55:40   What am I gonna do?

00:55:42   And the answer was that in the end,

00:55:46   'cause I got lots of backups,

00:55:49   I got a carbon copy cloner backup,

00:55:50   I got a time machine backup.

00:55:52   In the end, what I did was I tried to migrate

00:55:56   and I had some issues where I used migration assistant

00:56:00   to migrate my files from my backup

00:56:03   to a new Monterey install.

00:56:06   And everything went there except that

00:56:11   that neither Dropbox nor iCloud Drive was functional.

00:56:16   So like iCloud Drive,

00:56:19   it just sat at setting up iCloud Drive.

00:56:21   I left it overnight, still sat there.

00:56:23   And Dropbox also just basically stopped working.

00:56:26   - That sounds horrible.

00:56:28   I hate this.

00:56:29   - Well, I hate it too.

00:56:30   It was horrible.

00:56:31   So what I decided to do is I installed,

00:56:35   I made a new volume

00:56:38   and installed a new version of Monterey on it.

00:56:41   wiped the Monterey version I'd been playing with.

00:56:44   And on this one, I think I only,

00:56:47   oh no, no, I didn't install a new version of Monterey.

00:56:49   I deleted my user.

00:56:50   I deleted my user and I made a new user.

00:56:53   So I was starting fresh with an asterisk,

00:56:57   which is I was starting fresh, all my apps were installed.

00:57:00   So that was good.

00:57:02   But all my user folder stuff was not.

00:57:04   That was not installed.

00:57:06   Oh, the wind is picking up.

00:57:07   We might get blown away.

00:57:08   - It's nice.

00:57:09   - It is, it's a pleasant day.

00:57:10   It's 70 degrees right here.

00:57:13   I can tell you it's in my menu bar.

00:57:15   - Oh, cause we've got the weather station.

00:57:16   - It's like right over there.

00:57:17   - I can see a hummingbird.

00:57:21   - Yeah.

00:57:22   Yeah, there's like a hummingbird,

00:57:23   my neighbor has a hummingbird feeder.

00:57:24   - I can see it, it's beautiful.

00:57:25   I can see it, it's humming around.

00:57:27   - Yeah, no cats have appeared yet.

00:57:28   - Man, we should always record like this.

00:57:30   - Just outside.

00:57:31   - I mean, it's a commute for me.

00:57:32   - Somewhere in California, yeah, I know.

00:57:33   - It's nice.

00:57:34   - We'll bank them.

00:57:35   We'll come out and record like 20 episodes of Upgrade.

00:57:37   - Every episode is basically a draft at that point.

00:57:40   - Of something.

00:57:41   So anyway, yeah, so iCloud Drive wasn't working

00:57:46   and I sync a bunch of stuff.

00:57:49   So many apps sync stuff with iCloud Drive,

00:57:51   like I couldn't not use it.

00:57:52   My BPA preferences are in there, like everything's in there.

00:57:55   - Oh God.

00:57:56   - So what I did was, so I did the thing where I made

00:57:59   a new user that's an admin, then I logged in as the admin,

00:58:02   then I deleted my JSONL user.

00:58:05   - JSONL.

00:58:06   made a new JSONL user and deleted the admin account. And now I'm back, except I have nothing

00:58:14   in my user folder. And so it was, and I decided like, this is what I'm going to do. I'm just

00:58:20   going to start fresh and clean, keeping in mind that my old user folder is on the computer.

00:58:27   It's sitting there. So I can copy anything I need from the user folder if I need it,

00:58:33   I'm gonna go, I'm gonna start fresh.

00:58:35   So, you know, over the course of that day,

00:58:38   I kept launching apps and having to look up

00:58:40   their serial number or all of that.

00:58:42   I didn't love that part.

00:58:43   - You had all of the pain parts of getting a new computer

00:58:47   without actually getting one.

00:58:48   - Yeah, exactly right.

00:58:50   But I cloud drive worked and Dropbox worked.

00:58:51   So that was good.

00:58:53   So yeah, a combination of starting things up fresh

00:58:58   and putting the serial numbers,

00:58:59   all the App Store stuff just worked because App Store.

00:59:03   And then sometimes I'd launch an app and I'd be like,

00:59:05   oh, this app looks really weird,

00:59:07   or it doesn't have my stuff.

00:59:09   And then I would quit out of the app

00:59:11   and I would open my user folder and the old user folder.

00:59:16   And well, not Ventura from my backup

00:59:18   from right before Ventura got installed.

00:59:20   And I would pull over like the preferences files

00:59:22   and like the stream deck had nothing.

00:59:27   And I looked online like, where is the stream deck file kept?

00:59:30   And it said, oh, it's here.

00:59:31   And I copied those over and it still had nothing

00:59:34   on the stream deck.

00:59:35   I'm like, do I have to remake the entire stream deck?

00:59:36   And then I found a post somewhere that said,

00:59:39   it's actually in this other folder.

00:59:41   It's not in the Elgato folder.

00:59:43   It's in the com.elgato.streamdeck folder.

00:59:48   And I copied that over and then it worked.

00:59:49   So it was an adventure game of like, where are the,

00:59:52   like I opened the logic and logic looked weird.

00:59:54   And I'm like, no.

00:59:55   And I had to go copy all the logic files over

00:59:57   and reauthenticate.

00:59:59   And so, now I'm back basically up and running fresh,

01:00:02   but it took a little while to get there.

01:00:05   - So you're not gonna be running Ventura anymore then?

01:00:08   - Well, I have Ventura on there and the old one.

01:00:12   - So you can boot into that?

01:00:13   - I can boot into Ventura.

01:00:14   - Okay.

01:00:15   - But I'm not gonna live there because again,

01:00:17   I can't do any podcasts or anything there.

01:00:19   - You're not gonna live there.

01:00:21   - No, you don't wanna just visit.

01:00:23   - Not sure I agree with the audio hijack thing

01:00:26   of like, we're just not gonna let you use our apps.

01:00:29   Like I understand the frustration as a developer

01:00:31   trying to support someone during that period,

01:00:34   but unless they know it's 100% definitely broken,

01:00:38   I think that that's surely only going to cause more issues

01:00:43   for them from a support perspective than less.

01:00:45   - I get that they've been burned by it,

01:00:47   but that's my question is, do you know that it doesn't work?

01:00:50   Because if it does work and you're disabling it

01:00:53   out of some sort of beta spite, that's not great.

01:00:56   - But like, you know, if you think,

01:00:57   it might work say 50% of people, right?

01:01:02   So you're only gonna hear from 50% of your users

01:01:04   that installed that little problem.

01:01:05   - But now it's 100%.

01:01:06   - But now you're gonna hear from 100% of people.

01:01:07   People that are just gonna be mad at you.

01:01:09   - Right.

01:01:10   - I'd be surprised if they did.

01:01:11   - Well, and this was obviously preemptive, right?

01:01:13   The moment that I installed it,

01:01:15   it's not like there had been an update.

01:01:16   It was waiting for the new version.

01:01:18   - It didn't matter what it was.

01:01:19   - So that it could disable itself.

01:01:20   - Yeah, it could have been a new version of macOS

01:01:22   that changed nothing.

01:01:23   - It is possible. - But it's just a version

01:01:24   that nobody don't know.

01:01:24   - Since they've got weird extensions and stuff,

01:01:26   it's possible that they actually have to explicitly

01:01:29   sign or code or something the extension

01:01:32   in order for it to work with a specific OS version

01:01:34   and that they can't do it, it's possible.

01:01:36   But it doesn't feel like that to me.

01:01:38   It feels like they got burned so many times

01:01:39   that they just turned it off.

01:01:41   - I feel like if it was that, she say,

01:01:43   then they would have this at every point release,

01:01:46   wouldn't they?

01:01:47   - Yeah, that's probably true.

01:01:48   Probably too.

01:01:49   If they check it out with the betas

01:01:52   and it actually does work okay,

01:01:54   they should not turn it off.

01:01:56   Or they should do an update that turns it back on.

01:01:59   But yeah.

01:02:00   - Aside from your Ventura disaster,

01:02:04   have you been running any other betas?

01:02:06   - I have.

01:02:07   I spent, while all this was going on on my Mac,

01:02:09   I did spend a lot of time.

01:02:11   So as you know, I currently possess two studio displays

01:02:14   because I don't have to send my studio display back

01:02:17   until the end of the summer.

01:02:18   And I am going to take that extended,

01:02:20   it's not even extended, a long loan period.

01:02:22   and I'm using it 'cause it's been valuable.

01:02:24   I got to update the firmware in one

01:02:25   and not the other and all of that.

01:02:27   So I set up a little iPad station

01:02:30   with an iPad Air, M1 iPad Air,

01:02:33   'cause again, I didn't wanna go into the beta world

01:02:36   on my iPad Pro, but I have an M1 iPad Air.

01:02:40   So I installed the beta on that

01:02:43   and attached it to a studio display

01:02:44   and attached it to a keyboard and a Magic Trackpad

01:02:47   and set it up as a little alternate computer

01:02:49   next to my computer.

01:02:50   - The M1 iPad here is a fantastic iPad.

01:02:54   - You liking it?

01:02:55   - I love it because I mean, for me,

01:02:58   it has everything the iPad Pro does, 11 inch.

01:03:03   - And Touch ID versus Face ID?

01:03:06   - Yeah, I mean, that's the only downside that I've found

01:03:09   because compared to my iPad Mini,

01:03:12   the screen is so much better, oh my God.

01:03:16   The iPad Mini, I know they say it's not even,

01:03:19   It's not the same.

01:03:20   The quality of that screen is nowhere near as good.

01:03:23   The iPad Air's screen looks absolutely fantastic.

01:03:26   I've been really enjoying it, really enjoying it.

01:03:28   That's the only beta I've used myself is iPadOS.

01:03:32   Obviously I haven't had an external display or anything

01:03:34   but I brought my 2018 11 inch with me

01:03:38   with the Magic Keyboard.

01:03:39   And now I'm using the Magic Keyboard with this iPad Air.

01:03:43   And I've got to say, big fan of Stage Manager.

01:03:47   - Yeah.

01:03:48   I wanna keep trying to call it center stage in my brain.

01:03:51   - Yeah, I know, center stage.

01:03:52   - I really like it.

01:03:55   I really like it.

01:03:56   - I don't know what to think of it.

01:04:01   I think it's rough

01:04:01   and I think that there's a lot of work they have to do.

01:04:03   - Oh, it's rough.

01:04:04   - If I give them the benefit of the doubt

01:04:06   that they have the whole summer to kind of like shape it up,

01:04:09   I think it's got a lot of potential.

01:04:11   I'm happier that it exists.

01:04:13   Even in its current state,

01:04:14   I'm kind of happier that it exists

01:04:16   than that it didn't exist, right?

01:04:17   like I want this to exist.

01:04:19   Well, here it is.

01:04:20   The fact that you can use an iPad

01:04:22   with a windowing mode on your iPad,

01:04:25   but also that you can do the external display thing,

01:04:27   which is like just mind blowing to sit down.

01:04:31   And it looks like it looks, I sent you a picture.

01:04:33   I sent you and Steven a picture

01:04:34   of what looks like a Mac, right?

01:04:37   It looks, it's a studio display with some windows open

01:04:41   and a backdrop picture, and it's an iPad.

01:04:44   - And there's a dock.

01:04:45   - And there's a dock at the bottom, right?

01:04:47   which is your tell with me,

01:04:49   'cause the doc wouldn't be on the right side.

01:04:51   - I wouldn't be on the bottom either, I'm not a monster.

01:04:54   - But there it is, 'cause that's the,

01:04:55   you have no choice on the iPad.

01:04:57   It's that you're gonna get it the way they want.

01:04:59   It is, you know, part of it is getting used to it,

01:05:05   'cause it is a different system.

01:05:06   Part of it is the weirdness

01:05:08   of the different size classes in the app.

01:05:09   So resizing is kind of an adventure, right?

01:05:12   It's like, imagine you have a friendly dog

01:05:16   and then you resize the window and it's an angry dog.

01:05:19   It's a little like that, right?

01:05:20   Where you're like, oh, it's a different app now.

01:05:21   And some of the apps don't, bless their hearts,

01:05:24   some of the apps don't have any idea what they're doing.

01:05:26   Like Slack, and again,

01:05:29   it wasn't written with this mode in mind.

01:05:31   They didn't even know it existed, but it's still hilarious.

01:05:33   Like Slack in Stage Manager just won't show the sidebar

01:05:38   unless it's in full screen.

01:05:39   It's like, no, no, I don't know what size this is,

01:05:41   but it's not full screen, so no sidebar for you.

01:05:44   And that's just like, I mean, they'll fix it.

01:05:46   - And every app is struggling with the keyboard.

01:05:50   - Oh yeah, I mean, 'cause again, they don't know,

01:05:52   these are all, I think it's amazing that they work at all.

01:05:55   - I can't believe. - With stock apps,

01:05:56   but that's because Apple has been using

01:05:59   these kind of window, you know,

01:06:01   window management APIs for multitasking.

01:06:03   And so these poor little apps,

01:06:05   they don't know that they're in stage manager.

01:06:07   They just think they're in a weird multitasking mode.

01:06:09   - Like the original multitasking,

01:06:11   where the only apps you could try out is Apple's apps.

01:06:14   but every app works to some degree.

01:06:16   - To some degree.

01:06:17   - Like if it can do a split screen,

01:06:18   it will work with stage manager.

01:06:20   And like, you know, there are weird parts of it

01:06:22   where like on the iPad version of this,

01:06:25   it wants the apps to be in certain sizes

01:06:28   and in certain positions

01:06:29   and Apple's gonna put them there for you.

01:06:31   And it does this thing where it's like,

01:06:32   you want two apps that overlap each other.

01:06:34   You can kind of see one out the back

01:06:36   so you can tap on it and bring it to the front.

01:06:37   - Right.

01:06:38   - But like, it's done a thing for me,

01:06:40   which I've really enjoyed,

01:06:41   which is like three or four app multitasking.

01:06:44   - Yeah.

01:06:44   - And that's just not a thing you could do before.

01:06:46   - I know.

01:06:47   - Like, and I've been doing multitasking

01:06:48   without a keyboard in portrait mode

01:06:50   and you can have two apps in horizontal

01:06:53   on top of each other.

01:06:54   - Oh, isn't that nice?

01:06:55   - And it's really nice.

01:06:56   It's like a different way of doing things

01:06:57   where it's like there are certain apps

01:06:59   where like that is actually just a nicer experience.

01:07:01   - I think one of the big things that is not,

01:07:04   I mean, again, developer beta one,

01:07:05   like there's so much more ground to cover here

01:07:08   before they are done.

01:07:10   But one of the things that struck me is that

01:07:13   these apps all run, which is great,

01:07:15   but most apps don't understand the concept

01:07:19   of multiple windows.

01:07:20   - Even Safari.

01:07:21   - Even Safari. - Doesn't even work out

01:07:23   what's going on.

01:07:24   - You should be able to drag a tab out of Safari, right?

01:07:26   And make a new window next to it

01:07:27   so you can have two different,

01:07:28   'cause that's actually a common use case.

01:07:30   - I've been in a stage. - Comparing two documents

01:07:31   in Safari.

01:07:32   - I was doing this today to prepare for the show.

01:07:34   I had a stage that had Google Docs,

01:07:37   Notes and a Safari window, right?

01:07:39   - Yeah.

01:07:40   - So I'd tap a link in notes and it would go

01:07:42   to another stage and open a brand new Safari window.

01:07:46   What are you doing?

01:07:47   - There's some bugs, I was logging into Slack

01:07:48   and Slack needed to open Safari to log me in.

01:07:51   And all of a sudden the whole thing just got sucked over

01:07:54   onto the iPad screen from the external display.

01:07:58   And that's, you know, it's a combination of there's bugs

01:08:00   in the betas because they're betas.

01:08:02   And not all the apps know about this yet

01:08:06   that it's all gonna get worked out,

01:08:07   but I'm encouraged by it, right?

01:08:09   Like it's not gonna be for everyone.

01:08:10   That's the beauty of the fact that it's a little button

01:08:12   that you choose in control center.

01:08:14   And if you're not in it, it just is a normal iPad.

01:08:17   - It's the promo button, right?

01:08:18   It's like, now I'm going into promo.

01:08:19   - It essentially is that, right.

01:08:21   And I think it's gonna be good.

01:08:26   I think like, again, I haven't,

01:08:30   give me some time to like think about it philosophically

01:08:32   and some of the choices they've made may be a little weird

01:08:34   and maybe they'll tweak them as they go.

01:08:36   but I'm encouraged by it because it is,

01:08:39   I think in the grand tradition,

01:08:40   like with the cursor support, the pointer support

01:08:43   of Apple taking a thing that we know

01:08:46   that is so familiar from 1984

01:08:49   and trying to do their modern take on it.

01:08:52   And some of the things that they're doing

01:08:54   are gonna frustrate some users,

01:08:55   but like not being able to lose a window

01:08:58   behind another window is actually really important

01:09:01   for usability because it's really easy to lose a window.

01:09:05   Having a shelf with window sets on it is interesting.

01:09:10   I'm not sure it's right, but it's,

01:09:15   I get what they're doing there,

01:09:16   even though I'm not sure

01:09:17   if the implementation is exactly right.

01:09:19   The ironically, when they introduced the little thing

01:09:22   at the top of every window,

01:09:24   the multitasking little widget nubbin thing in iPadOS 15,

01:09:29   a lot of the complaints were that it was a wasted space

01:09:34   and it was too big and it got in the way.

01:09:37   And I know when I'm editing in ferrite,

01:09:39   I tap it by mistake all the time

01:09:40   and I'm super frustrated by it.

01:09:42   Well, guess what?

01:09:43   It needs to be bigger.

01:09:44   It needs to be a bigger target

01:09:45   because it's now super important

01:09:47   'cause you need to do things like dismiss a window

01:09:49   and send it out off over into the shelf.

01:09:52   - I don't wanna ever have to hit the three dots.

01:09:54   I want that thing there permanently.

01:09:57   It annoys me.

01:09:58   - With the controls on it.

01:09:59   - Yes, that I have to.

01:10:00   - Like the little three things on the Mac.

01:10:02   - It annoys me that I have to hit the three dots

01:10:04   and then hit the thing to make it go full screen.

01:10:06   - So it's two clicks or taps.

01:10:06   - I just want it there all the time now.

01:10:08   - 'Cause you wanna be able to send that window away.

01:10:11   - Go away or let me open this in full screen for a second.

01:10:14   - Yeah, so there's some functionality

01:10:17   and some interaction stuff there

01:10:19   that I have some questions about.

01:10:21   I also am not entirely convinced

01:10:25   that having the dock and the shelf

01:10:28   is not a really weird mixed metaphor.

01:10:33   I get why they're not the same.

01:10:35   And so I get why they're visible.

01:10:39   And sometimes what I found in my brief use of it is,

01:10:43   sometimes that's the best way to bail out of something.

01:10:46   And you're like, how do I do this?

01:10:47   And the answer is, I'm just gonna click in the dock

01:10:49   and drag out the Safari icon and make a new Safari window,

01:10:52   which you can do, which is actually kind of a great thing.

01:10:54   But yet now I've got these things over here

01:10:56   and these things over here and like,

01:10:58   it's, there's a lot and there are a jaunty angle.

01:11:02   - I don't like the joint, I wish,

01:11:04   one thing I wish it would do on the iPad,

01:11:05   if I click the desktop, it takes me to the home screen,

01:11:09   that's what I want it to do, it doesn't do that,

01:11:10   I wish it didn't do that.

01:11:11   - Yeah.

01:11:12   - I like that you can kind of make the dock disappear

01:11:15   if you want to, you just gotta make the app big enough,

01:11:17   that's kinda good. - Yeah, yeah,

01:11:18   that's something that people might not have realized,

01:11:20   that if you wanna make the dock, or the shelf,

01:11:23   whatever they call it, I've just been calling it the shelf,

01:11:25   disappear, literally all you do is move your window over it,

01:11:28   or make your window tall enough,

01:11:30   and the dock just goes away, - Just goes away.

01:11:32   because you say I want to use that space,

01:11:34   which is good because the most frustrating

01:11:37   center stage experience is you have one window.

01:11:39   - Stage manager.

01:11:40   - Oh, sorry, stage manager.

01:11:42   You're doing it to me.

01:11:43   One window and it's sort of like a window

01:11:45   inside an iPad window with all the things around.

01:11:48   And it's like, well, that's a waste of space.

01:11:51   You should take it to full screen mode

01:11:52   if you're going to leave it like that.

01:11:54   And that's why it would be nice to have a button

01:11:56   to just say, make this full screen right here,

01:11:59   because some apps are better in full screen.

01:12:01   So it's a work in progress, it's a beta,

01:12:04   but I think it's got a lot of potential.

01:12:05   And I think that-

01:12:06   - I'm actually having used it for the past five,

01:12:10   six days on iPad.

01:12:11   I can't wait to use it on my Mac.

01:12:13   I'm a spaces user.

01:12:16   I have like two spaces.

01:12:17   And I would like to have more.

01:12:20   And I tried this for a while.

01:12:21   I set up like four spaces.

01:12:22   So none of my windows overlapped,

01:12:24   but then it was too much zoom in backwards

01:12:26   and forwards all the time.

01:12:27   And I'm like, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe.

01:12:30   But with stage manager, it's all kind of feels like

01:12:32   it's there, like it's what I found with the iPad.

01:12:35   It all just feels like it's there.

01:12:37   And the animation of bringing the apps forward

01:12:40   is way nicer.

01:12:41   I find it way nicer than the way it was on iPad

01:12:44   where it's like things are spinning around all the time.

01:12:46   Right? - Right.

01:12:48   - I think this is a nicer way of doing things.

01:12:50   And I could imagine collecting up all of my apps

01:12:53   into these little stages.

01:12:55   I'm pretty into it as a feature.

01:12:57   I think this is the best foundation

01:13:02   that they are building from, I think.

01:13:04   I think this is better than the split screen foundation

01:13:07   from iOS 9.

01:13:08   I think this is a place where there could be

01:13:10   a lot more expandability.

01:13:12   If you may allow me actually,

01:13:14   we could go into a very quick rumor roundup.

01:13:16   - Yeah, I was gonna say one of the things that this implies

01:13:19   is the future of the iPad.

01:13:22   Just to maybe close on stage manager a moment

01:13:26   before we leap over the fence into the corral,

01:13:30   is this, I think that if I had to boil down my concerns

01:13:34   about stage manager as of beta one right now,

01:13:37   the two that I have that are the biggest are actually,

01:13:41   I'm not sure that that shelf is quite right.

01:13:46   - Yeah.

01:13:46   - And what you said, which is, I think controls

01:13:51   for moving windows around need to not be hidden

01:13:56   behind a very hard to tap on little widget

01:14:00   that then exposes more controls.

01:14:02   I think that there needs to be a much easier way

01:14:06   to very quickly rearrange or send off individual windows.

01:14:11   And it's just not there yet.

01:14:12   I think that needs to be more explicit.

01:14:15   - Rumor round up. - Yeah.

01:14:17   - Ross Young, display analyst,

01:14:19   is reporting that a 4.1 inch iPad Pro

01:14:23   is currently in development for release in early 2023,

01:14:26   featuring a mini LED promotion display.

01:14:30   It's been corroborated by Mark Gorman at Bloomberg,

01:14:33   who also says next year,

01:14:35   Mark also talks about 11 and 12.9 inch iPad Pro updates

01:14:39   on the horizon for this year as well.

01:14:41   Makes sense, go bigger, keep going bigger now.

01:14:43   - Yeah, this is the,

01:14:46   in fact, it's funny, I was listening to ATP from last week,

01:14:48   which is three hours long. - I said four,

01:14:49   - 14.1, I said 4.1.

01:14:51   - 4.1, it's a mini, mini, mini, mini.

01:14:53   - Pocket iPad, 14.1 inches.

01:14:55   - But it's scroll, it's a foldable.

01:14:56   - I have a COVID brain, what do you want from me?

01:14:58   - Okay, ATP last week, before this rumor came out,

01:15:01   they were talking about stage manager and Syracuse,

01:15:04   I think said, "Hey, bring on the bigger iPads."

01:15:09   And you know, we were all thinking it,

01:15:11   but like then this rumor comes out and it's like,

01:15:13   well, of course, because once you've got this system,

01:15:17   'Cause if you just scale the existing full screen

01:15:19   and split screen modes, I think it shows you here

01:15:22   with the external display support being added too.

01:15:25   This is Apple sort of saying,

01:15:26   we don't think it makes like a full screen app makes sense

01:15:30   in these bigger sizes.

01:15:31   It's just kind of ridiculous.

01:15:33   Well, now that this is here,

01:15:34   they could do that and bring it on.

01:15:36   Like I think, is it gonna be for everyone?

01:15:38   Does everybody want a 15 inch iPad?

01:15:40   Well, no, but people have 15 inch laptops

01:15:43   and they like those and I could see it.

01:15:46   I could see some interesting accessories here.

01:15:48   Maybe there's, you know, something,

01:15:50   maybe it's just a giant Magic Keyboard,

01:15:52   but maybe there's, they have some other weird stand

01:15:54   that they do with it that lets you create

01:15:56   your little Surface Studio kind of thing on your desk.

01:15:59   I don't know.

01:16:00   - I mean, like, you say like 14 inches,

01:16:02   that seems too big for iPad,

01:16:04   but that's as big as my MacBook

01:16:08   that I've got in front of me right now.

01:16:10   And like, I'm not like, oh, this thing is unwieldy, you know.

01:16:13   - No, that's, and-- - It's just a laptop size.

01:16:15   And that's a laptop with the whole keyboard attached to it too, whereas this would just be a screen.

01:16:20   I think, yeah, I mean there's the argument that as an iPad being something you hold in your hands, it's kind of big.

01:16:26   But yeah, I think the truth is either the people who are complaining about the idea of a bigger iPad,

01:16:33   either it's a failure of imagination or it's simply, it's just sort of not for them.

01:16:37   And that's fine, but there are definitely just artists with the Apple Pencil.

01:16:43   I know that there are people who would die for a 15 inch iPad to have that all addressable

01:16:47   space for Apple Pencil. And then you think about, well, yes, and then you can also put

01:16:51   it in the stage manager mode and put it in a magic keyboard and now you've got a 15 inch

01:16:57   laptop running iPad OS. Like there's so much going on there that there's just a lot of

01:17:04   potential. It's exciting.

01:17:06   You said 15 inches. I think this rumor is 14 inches.

01:17:09   Oh, 14 inches. Okay.

01:17:10   There is a 15 inch rumor, Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is working on a MacBook Air with

01:17:16   a 15 inch screen for release quote as early as next spring, also developing what would

01:17:23   be its smallest laptop in years, a new 12 inch laptop by the end of 2023.

01:17:29   So what we're looking at is next year, assumedly taking this current MacBook Air design and

01:17:35   and going both bigger and smaller with it

01:17:38   to have three MacBook Airs in the lineup.

01:17:40   - Yeah.

01:17:41   I think that this is partly the dam bursting

01:17:46   because Apple Silicon has enabled new models, right?

01:17:50   And it feels like they were holding off

01:17:52   on a bunch of stuff because of Apple Silicon.

01:17:54   And this MacBook Air design is literally,

01:17:57   now we can design this thing for Apple Silicon.

01:17:59   Whereas the last one was just in the case

01:18:02   of the old MacBook Air and not any different on the outside.

01:18:07   What, three quarters of the Macs, Apple cells, or laptops?

01:18:12   It doesn't actually make sense

01:18:13   for there only to be four models.

01:18:15   - I mean, and they have said our most popular Mac

01:18:17   is the MacBook Air.

01:18:19   - Yes.

01:18:20   - And I mean, I'm sure the thinking is,

01:18:22   which I would agree with,

01:18:23   it would probably be only more popular

01:18:24   if we had it in a bunch of sizes.

01:18:25   - Yeah.

01:18:27   Yeah, I think that's it.

01:18:27   I think that why not,

01:18:29   there are three MacBook Pros and one MacBook Air.

01:18:32   And three quarters of your Mac sales are laptops.

01:18:36   Why would you not market it better

01:18:38   and provide more models and more shapes and sizes?

01:18:42   I know that there's now the M2 and the M1,

01:18:43   but they're functionally,

01:18:46   it's the old and the new of the same,

01:18:49   but a 12 inch Apple Silicon MacBook Air,

01:18:53   'cause remember the new one is almost 14 inches, right?

01:18:58   It's 13 point...

01:19:00   - Six. - Six?

01:19:01   Like it's getting bigger.

01:19:03   - But it's basically the same, right?

01:19:05   Like it's basically the same.

01:19:06   Like really, I assume they're the same footprint,

01:19:11   but it's just 'cause they decrease the bezels.

01:19:13   - But you could make a smaller laptop.

01:19:14   - Well, but that's the question, right?

01:19:16   Like why do you make-- - With the notch

01:19:17   and all of that, you could make a smaller laptop

01:19:18   that would be narrower and lighter.

01:19:20   It doesn't have a fan just like the Air.

01:19:22   And it's for people, like I was talking to Dan Morin

01:19:25   last Friday for our Six Colors podcast about this.

01:19:27   and like he and I are both like former

01:19:30   11 inch MacBook Air people.

01:19:31   - Me too.

01:19:32   - It's like, right?

01:19:33   So it's like--

01:19:34   - I would love that little one, oh my God.

01:19:36   - I would take, I would lose a little screen space

01:19:40   to get an even thinner, even lighter 12 inch MacBook Air.

01:19:45   Sign me up for that.

01:19:46   - With all that power in it as well?

01:19:48   - Yeah, and likewise, there are some people

01:19:51   who wanna buy a MacBook Air,

01:19:53   but wish it had a bigger screen.

01:19:55   And right now Apple's whole story is,

01:19:56   well, if you want a bigger screen,

01:19:58   now you're up in the 2000s.

01:19:59   - Yeah.

01:20:00   - In order, $2,000 plus in order to buy,

01:20:02   you have to buy a MacBook Pro.

01:20:03   - Yeah.

01:20:04   - And it's like, does somebody who just wants

01:20:06   a 15 inch screen need an M2 Pro processor?

01:20:11   They don't.

01:20:12   - No.

01:20:13   - They don't.

01:20:14   Some people need it, but there are lots of people

01:20:16   who don't need it.

01:20:17   - Yep.

01:20:18   - And just wanna have a bigger screen.

01:20:20   And so why not let them have that?

01:20:21   Again, what I keep coming back to is,

01:20:24   three quarters of the Mac sold their laptops.

01:20:26   And Apple has not really pushed it for a while

01:20:31   in terms of what they have on offer.

01:20:33   - Because it's like, why not?

01:20:37   Like why does the MacBook Pro,

01:20:39   your less popular laptop come in two sizes?

01:20:43   - Yeah.

01:20:45   - But your most popular laptop comes in one size.

01:20:47   - I guess technically three sizes, but

01:20:50   let's not talk about that. - We don't count

01:20:52   the third-inch MacBook Pro,

01:20:53   'cause that I think just exists for like legacy reasons.

01:20:58   - And marketing reasons.

01:20:59   - Yeah, and then forget about the cheaper one

01:21:02   because they're functionally the same size.

01:21:03   - Currently the modern,

01:21:05   what we would call modern Mac laptops,

01:21:07   there's the M2 Air and the 14 and the 16 Pro.

01:21:12   - So why not have three MacBook Airs and two Mac Pros?

01:21:17   Why not do that?

01:21:18   - Why not indeed?

01:21:19   Yeah, right?

01:21:20   they will find their own niches.

01:21:23   It allows Apple to charge more for a larger laptop.

01:21:28   It allows more product differentiation.

01:21:30   I love this idea of more laptops.

01:21:34   Let's make it happen.

01:21:35   - Mark Gellman is also reporting that an M2 Pro

01:21:39   and M2 Max MacBook Pros will be coming at the end of 2022.

01:21:44   No radical changes to those products,

01:21:47   but the chips will go up to 12 performance cores.

01:21:50   are currently at 10 and up to 38 GPU cores from 32.

01:21:54   So kind of, again, this is like what we saw

01:21:56   from the M1 to the M2, not huge differences,

01:21:58   but just continues, like charts go up.

01:22:01   - Yep, charts go up.

01:22:02   - And obviously there are hints of the next iPhone

01:22:05   getting an always on display in iOS 16's code.

01:22:08   There are similar references to the way

01:22:11   for handling the lock screen, quote unquote,

01:22:13   widgets, which are complications,

01:22:14   but they call widgets in the same way.

01:22:16   So it's like backlight management stuff.

01:22:18   So there's all these references to like dimming states

01:22:20   and stuff like that, which would only exist

01:22:23   if there was the need for always on display.

01:22:25   But if you just look at that lock screen design,

01:22:28   it's very clear that an always on display is in the future.

01:22:32   - Yeah, it's pretty clear.

01:22:33   Also, since all complications are now going to be widgets,

01:22:36   then all widgets are, no, not all widgets are complications,

01:22:40   but all complications are widgets.

01:22:41   - Yes, I was talking to underscore about this

01:22:45   'cause obviously Dave is very focused on these right now.

01:22:48   - Sure.

01:22:48   - Developers have to enable them to be available.

01:22:52   So like if you have an Apple watch app

01:22:53   that has complications, they don't automatically

01:22:56   go over, but you can automatically have them go over.

01:23:00   But there is more space available to you.

01:23:02   So I've been seeing lots of developers tweak

01:23:04   what they have on the Apple watch

01:23:05   to allow for this larger space.

01:23:07   - I was watching how Simon, Simon scriptable

01:23:10   was testing this out because I love scriptable

01:23:14   and I wrote a widget in JavaScript

01:23:17   to do my home weather station and to do air quality.

01:23:21   And he's got it working now where you can use his app

01:23:25   to generate these home screen widgets,

01:23:28   these lock screen widgets instead.

01:23:30   And I had that moment where I thought,

01:23:31   oh my God, I'm gonna be able to put the temperature

01:23:33   in my weather station on my iPhone lock screen now.

01:23:36   It's pretty great, like for me,

01:23:37   but the point is like,

01:23:39   there's gonna be all sorts of glanceable information

01:23:41   that we're gonna be able to put out there.

01:23:42   That's really fun.

01:23:44   And yes, I think it is inevitable that we're gonna get,

01:23:50   I'm a little surprised we didn't already get it,

01:23:51   but with OLED on the iPhone,

01:23:54   they'll say something about how this is a new screen

01:23:56   that uses less power.

01:23:57   It'll be exactly what they said about the Apple Watch, right?

01:23:59   When they went to the always on Apple Watch, they said,

01:24:01   "Well, this one, we had to engineer the screen

01:24:03   "a little differently in order to support always on."

01:24:06   And it doesn't mean that they couldn't do it now,

01:24:08   it's just that it would use so much power

01:24:10   that it would be bad for battery life to do it.

01:24:13   And they're gonna have a new story

01:24:16   for that phone in the fall,

01:24:17   and then you're gonna be able to see these things.

01:24:19   And that's gonna be weird, right?

01:24:20   Like to have an iPhone and your iPhone's laying there

01:24:23   and it's not a featureless slab.

01:24:24   I know people who have Android phones that do this

01:24:26   have experienced this already,

01:24:27   but for us iPhone users, it's gonna be a weird change.

01:24:31   - Yeah, we've got some Ask Upgrade questions

01:24:33   about this later on that I wanted to touch on.

01:24:36   - Nice. - Which we'll get to,

01:24:37   which I think is an interesting thought

01:24:39   on that exact, exact point.

01:24:40   - You know, in some ways,

01:24:41   this is my favorite episode of the year,

01:24:43   because this is the episode where we have,

01:24:46   there has been so much to talk about

01:24:48   that we have actually not been able to talk about everything.

01:24:52   Plus we've got a little bit of a week to think about it.

01:24:54   These sort of post-event, event, episode things.

01:24:58   So this is fun.

01:24:59   Plus, you know, we're outside.

01:25:01   - It's very nice.

01:25:02   This is, I'm enjoying,

01:25:03   I'm enjoying recording this episode very much.

01:25:05   And if you're thinking, wow, this is a long episode,

01:25:07   We're like halfway through it.

01:25:08   I think, for our document anyway.

01:25:10   So that's right.

01:25:11   - We're here till the sun goes down.

01:25:12   - I'm having the greatest time.

01:25:13   So we're going to keep on going.

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01:26:46   So we did speak about on the last episode

01:26:49   that we would come back to the M2

01:26:52   and the MacBook Air a little bit.

01:26:55   One of the things that's really like sat with me

01:26:57   since our last episode about the M2

01:27:00   is this idea of Apple doubling down on the bets that they made with the M1.

01:27:08   And so there's a couple of places where I think this makes the most sense for me.

01:27:11   One is the unified memory thing. Now, you know, we didn't really know what to expect with unified

01:27:18   memory when it comes to the M1, right? It was a new thing for us. Like, is this really going to

01:27:22   work out? What is this going to be like? And not only did it work out great, they've actually ended

01:27:28   up making it better. So they have, what is it, like faster memory bandwidth. They're

01:27:33   using LP5 memory.

01:27:35   Right, it's the memory, like there are a few things that are like the Pro and the Max that

01:27:40   are in the M1 generation that are now in the base model M2. And one of them is they're

01:27:45   using the LP5 instead of LP4, which is faster and allows for more density, which is what

01:27:52   they said is why it's 24 gigs maximum is that the modules actually just can be denser and

01:27:59   they're faster. So your everything that's happening is going faster in terms of all

01:28:06   the memory transfer because that again it's not maybe it's more M2 like or M1 pro like

01:28:14   in the M2.

01:28:15   So, and then also the fact that there's now a higher level,

01:28:20   you can go up to 24 gigabytes, which I keep stumbling on,

01:28:23   because that sounds so weird to my ears for what RAM can be,

01:28:27   but Apple can just choose,

01:28:29   because they don't have sticks, right?

01:28:33   - Yeah, so I think when I talk about the density,

01:28:36   I think that that's literally it is,

01:28:38   what can we fit on this?

01:28:40   they've, you know, limitations of power and the, and size, uh, with the M2, they don't want to make

01:28:46   it like there's going to be an M2 Pro and an M2 Max, right? So they got to choose what the constraints

01:28:50   are for the M2. But when they decided to use the faster RAM, that allowed them to put a little bit

01:28:56   more on, uh, to reach like the max that they were willing to, willing to do for the base model chip.

01:29:03   So the base model chip gets a little more capable, which I think is what we were all hoping is that

01:29:06   That was definitely one of the things that everybody felt about the M1 originally was a bit,

01:29:10   you know, 16 was not enough for some people. And honestly, eventually those people can buy

01:29:17   a MacBook Pro with an M1 Pro or an M1 Macs in it and they get more RAM and they're happy about it.

01:29:22   But this brings it down for the base models too. So it's good.

01:29:26   And I would say like having used an M1 for like a year or whatever, 16 was not enough for me.

01:29:33   24 would be I expect enough between you know, that feels just like a higher

01:29:38   It is a higher level. I expect it would be enough, but I just think that's really interesting that they

01:29:44   Went ahead and pushed on those things the same was like the power to performance stuff

01:29:48   Like that's where they're continuing to push on because that's what's been the big thing that people love right? It's like

01:29:55   There is an incredible amount of power

01:29:57   at very low

01:30:00   power consumption

01:30:02   And that has that's been the big thing for everybody for what is you know like from?

01:30:07   Tech reviewers to consumers of why these machines have been such a hit is that these there are these laptops that have incredible battery life

01:30:15   And they're about as powerful as anything else in their class plugged in or not

01:30:18   It's kind of fantastic just to be clear though the base model is

01:30:23   eight

01:30:26   so

01:30:27   So you have to go 8 to 16 to 24. That's not change though. So you're gonna know but it's just just to be clear

01:30:33   Yeah, but people's a lot of people would get by on 8. I'm not that kind of user right like I would need more

01:30:39   So just having the ability to go up higher would be in this would be

01:30:42   Necessary for me if I was to consider this computer

01:30:46   right, right

01:30:48   Because then I'm considering it not on pure power but on format like like it's size its weight

01:30:55   thickness, that kind of stuff, right?

01:30:57   That's the only reason I would consider

01:30:58   owning one of these machines.

01:30:59   I'm really intrigued to see one and hold one

01:31:02   and kind of, you know, how much of a difference

01:31:04   would it make going in and out of my bag every day?

01:31:07   But then I would still want that higher level of support.

01:31:11   - Right.

01:31:12   - Of like, of RAM.

01:31:12   I have, we got quite a lot of Ask Upgrade questions.

01:31:18   And because I wasn't really sure what else

01:31:21   we could talk about with the M2,

01:31:22   I thought we could bring some of those in now.

01:31:25   And this is a,

01:31:29   there is a thing that you mentioned in your article

01:31:32   about the MacBook Air, which also has a question.

01:31:34   So your quote is, "Unfortunately, the M2

01:31:37   is still the base model chip of its generation

01:31:39   and Apple has not chosen to provide it with enough IO power

01:31:42   to drive a second external display."

01:31:44   And David wrote in similarly asking,

01:31:47   "Is Apple delaying fixing a technical limitation

01:31:49   because they aren't motivated to allow more displays

01:31:52   on non pro-priced hardware

01:31:54   or is the limit purely an artificial differentiator

01:31:57   to upsell buyers?

01:31:58   - Well, I mean, it's a decision.

01:32:02   Is it artificial?

01:32:05   - I mean, every decision, I mean.

01:32:08   - It's a decision.

01:32:09   - Why not support 26 monitors?

01:32:11   I'm being facetious, but like there's always a limit, right?

01:32:16   Why is two better than one?

01:32:19   Why not four, right?

01:32:21   - I think they decided that for a base model,

01:32:26   yeah, I mean, to your point, it's a base model.

01:32:30   Why doesn't the base model have 80 cores and 9,000 GPUs?

01:32:35   And like, I mean, it's a base model.

01:32:37   They have to draw a line somewhere and say,

01:32:39   the base model has limitations.

01:32:42   I don't think it's artificial in the sense of it's simply,

01:32:46   it does it just fine and we turned it off.

01:32:49   I think what happened is they weren't motivated

01:32:52   to make this enough of a priority

01:32:57   in what they were building for M2.

01:33:00   And so the use case where you have a laptop

01:33:04   that you attach two external displays to

01:33:07   is not a use case that they felt was within the parameters

01:33:12   of a base model chip.

01:33:14   - I have no problem saying this.

01:33:16   I don't think they need to change this.

01:33:17   Like if you are a user who wants an M1 machine

01:33:22   and wants to have three displays,

01:33:24   like you are so far into the edge cases.

01:33:27   - I would reword it and say,

01:33:29   if you need a laptop with that many external displays on it,

01:33:32   you should buy a MacBook Pro.

01:33:32   - You need a MacBook Pro.

01:33:33   This is what I was gonna get, right?

01:33:34   Like if you are for some reason a user

01:33:37   who wants two external displays and their laptop display,

01:33:40   like you are a pro now.

01:33:43   I understand we're now pushing into the expense question,

01:33:48   but what are you doing, right?

01:33:51   And the thing that I like about this,

01:33:54   'cause it's in the base level chip,

01:33:56   you think, oh, that also goes in the Mac mini,

01:33:58   but then it gets two displays, which is like fun, right?

01:34:00   - Because it doesn't have the laptop display.

01:34:03   - The internal display is the power.

01:34:04   - If I'm disappointed about anything,

01:34:06   and I did ask about this, I asked around about this,

01:34:09   if I'm disappointed about anything is,

01:34:13   - I wish that the MacBook Air would drive two displays

01:34:17   in clamshell mode, right?

01:34:19   - Yeah, sure, I agree with that.

01:34:20   - When it's not hooked up to its own display,

01:34:23   its own display is off.

01:34:25   I think it's too bad that they didn't do--

01:34:29   - Is it like hard wired in in some way?

01:34:31   - Yeah, I don't entirely understand why,

01:34:33   but I am disappointed given that the Mac Mini can do it.

01:34:36   I wish that that would be a scenario, right?

01:34:38   Which is like, okay, well I'm docked and my lid is closed

01:34:42   - And now I'd like to see too. - You know what though,

01:34:44   I could imagine it's just like,

01:34:45   if it's say like the machine just can't handle it,

01:34:49   the problem is then which monitor you turn off, right?

01:34:53   And you open the lid.

01:34:54   - Sure, sure.

01:34:55   And I would also say,

01:34:58   I know that there are ways you can use a display port

01:35:00   adapter and you can get a second display on it and all that.

01:35:02   I think what I'd say is for a lot of this stuff,

01:35:04   it ends up being Apple doesn't offer that

01:35:07   because Apple doesn't think that experience is any good.

01:35:10   And Apple is not gonna say,

01:35:11   "Well, it supports two displays,

01:35:13   "but one of them has to be crappy."

01:35:15   They just say it doesn't.

01:35:16   - There has to be, like, when you do,

01:35:19   I know that there will be people that are like,

01:35:20   they've heard what I said about like,

01:35:22   you need to get a different computer

01:35:23   and be mad about it.

01:35:24   But like, this is my point,

01:35:25   like you have to stop somewhere, right?

01:35:27   Because now if you're a MacBook Pro user

01:35:29   and you want seven displays, right?

01:35:30   Well, it doesn't support that.

01:35:33   It was like, well, I mean, what are you gonna do?

01:35:36   Like, there has to be an end point.

01:35:39   And every decision that they make to add features to M2

01:35:44   is coming out of price or power consumption

01:35:49   or heat dissipate.

01:35:50   I mean, like there are so many different things,

01:35:52   but it's not a free lunch, right?

01:35:54   They have to scope this thing as an entry-level chip

01:35:59   and they know that it's going

01:36:00   into all their entry-level products.

01:36:02   And there are decisions they're gonna make

01:36:07   that are going to cut off features,

01:36:10   but it's okay 'cause there are other features.

01:36:12   Honestly, I think this is not even much of an issue anymore

01:36:15   because what this was really an issue about

01:36:17   was when M1 was the only Apple Silicon.

01:36:20   And so people were frustrated

01:36:21   'cause it was only 16 gigs of RAM

01:36:23   and it was only one external display on a laptop

01:36:26   and, "Oh, we want more."

01:36:27   But there is more now.

01:36:28   It's the MacBook Pro, you can do this.

01:36:32   And so this is not what the MacBook Air is meant to be.

01:36:36   So that's my, in the end,

01:36:39   if they really felt that this was necessary,

01:36:40   they would have built it differently,

01:36:43   but they decided that that was too much of an edge case.

01:36:45   And yeah, the truth is, get a MacBook Pro if you want that,

01:36:49   and, or wait for the M2 MacBook Pro,

01:36:51   which is absolutely coming.

01:36:53   - Matt asked, is the M2 MacBook Air

01:36:57   the new default laptop recommendation,

01:36:59   or does the M1 Air still win simply for being cheaper?

01:37:03   I'd like to get my hands on an M2 Air for more than,

01:37:07   I mean, I had it more than the hands-on area.

01:37:09   I got to spend a little time with them later in the day.

01:37:13   So I've got more hands-on than some,

01:37:17   but the truth is until you use it, it's really hard to say.

01:37:21   It is more expensive and I'm not sure.

01:37:26   I think the question is gonna be,

01:37:30   is the style and the added functionality of the M2

01:37:35   worth the premium in price.

01:37:41   So my guess is that it's not gonna be as easy

01:37:46   a buying recommendation, a default buying recommendation.

01:37:49   - I think you could just say to people,

01:37:52   you want a MacBook Air, you can choose.

01:37:54   Do you want a cheaper one, but it looks like that?

01:37:55   Or do you want the newer one, but it looks like that?

01:37:57   And it costs that.

01:37:58   I might even go so far as to say,

01:38:01   and I reserve the right to change my mind

01:38:03   once I review this thing,

01:38:04   which to my knowledge, nobody has them, right?

01:38:08   Like they're not, they're coming out in July.

01:38:11   To my knowledge, nobody has them.

01:38:12   - There hasn't been any-

01:38:13   - If I was given one to review, I couldn't say that.

01:38:16   - For all I know, there's one's like 20 feet away from me.

01:38:19   - No, there's not.

01:38:20   - But that's what you would say.

01:38:21   - No, no.

01:38:23   (laughing)

01:38:24   - No, I would say I'm not at liberty to say.

01:38:26   - I would deflect, but I can say,

01:38:27   I absolutely don't have one because they don't exist yet.

01:38:31   So I wanna get my hands on them.

01:38:33   I think though that what I may end up saying

01:38:36   is something like the 999 model is great

01:38:40   and it will serve you really well.

01:38:42   If you want to pay a little more,

01:38:44   you can get something that's nicer.

01:38:46   But that's the decision, right?

01:38:49   Do you wanna spend more than the 999?

01:38:51   999 is such a great price for that M1 Air.

01:38:55   It really is a great price and it's a great product

01:39:00   and it will serve most people's use cases.

01:39:02   So it really is sort of like,

01:39:04   do you want to spend a little bit more money

01:39:06   for something nice?

01:39:06   But I don't think I will say the M2 Air is the default.

01:39:11   I won't think, I don't think I'm willing

01:39:13   as long as the M1 Air is still in the product line

01:39:15   to say that the M2 Air is the default

01:39:17   because the M1 Air is so good and it's more affordable.

01:39:21   And so I think that it's gonna be,

01:39:24   I think that's why they're selling it still,

01:39:27   is that a lot of people are still gonna just buy it

01:39:28   and it's gonna be great and they're gonna do well with it.

01:39:31   - Again, just to, I'm trying to cover all my bases here.

01:39:34   John in the Discord says,

01:39:35   "The Intel version of the MacBook Air

01:39:37   "used to support two external displays."

01:39:38   It's like, again, I'm sure it did, but like I don't,

01:39:42   they've just made a decision and they're sticking to it.

01:39:44   And honestly, I don't think it's that bad.

01:39:46   I really don't.

01:39:47   - And I would say that that was a decision

01:39:49   based on Intel's choice.

01:39:52   - Yeah, Intel made that decision.

01:39:54   - And so then it was there in the chip.

01:39:55   So Apple supported it. - And now Apple

01:39:56   made the decision.

01:39:57   And I understand if you had a specific use case

01:39:59   where this annoys you,

01:40:01   but I just think that there has to be limits to this stuff.

01:40:04   This is the one that they've chosen.

01:40:05   - Well, and the phrasing of they should have kept it in,

01:40:07   it's like, well, they didn't keep it in.

01:40:10   They had to make a new chip and they made the M1.

01:40:12   And it was not a distinction that,

01:40:14   it was not on their list of things that they needed

01:40:16   to have to bring over the M1 from Intel.

01:40:20   They just, it wasn't on their list.

01:40:22   It was a thing that was provided by Intel

01:40:24   that they didn't think was that important.

01:40:26   And if you think it's that important, I get it.

01:40:29   But yeah, what can I say?

01:40:32   I think running a laptop with two external displays

01:40:35   is an edge case and there's a MacBook Pro that solves it

01:40:38   and I understand why they made it.

01:40:39   Even though it is frustrating

01:40:41   and even though I think that it would be better

01:40:43   if they could run it lid closed

01:40:45   because it would still be driving two displays,

01:40:47   it would just be too external, but this is where we are.

01:40:51   and a secondary question that came from David.

01:40:53   What are the chances that consumers will reject

01:40:55   Apple's second attempt to upscale

01:40:57   and up price the MacBook Air?

01:40:59   Will the vast majority of consumers

01:41:00   just keep buying the M1 MacBook Air?

01:41:03   - In the short term, yeah, I think that's probably true

01:41:05   that the M1 MacBook Air is gonna sell really well.

01:41:08   The M2, I think will sell well too.

01:41:10   I think this is maybe even priming the pump a little bit

01:41:14   for what we were talking about earlier,

01:41:15   which is you have many options.

01:41:16   - It doesn't matter when they have three of them, does it?

01:41:18   - Yeah, you have many choices.

01:41:19   Choose which one you like better.

01:41:21   I think in the long run, the M2 Air will be the 999, right?

01:41:24   It will eventually be. - The reason they have

01:41:26   this 9991 around is because they're preparing for that.

01:41:29   They're preparing for, they haven't just gotten rid

01:41:32   of the MacBook Air, right?

01:41:34   And they're just like, the M1, and they're just like,

01:41:36   the MacBook Air starts at 1299 now.

01:41:38   I think they are very aware of the fact

01:41:40   that if they keep the 9991 around,

01:41:43   people will keep buying the 9991 because it costs that,

01:41:46   until next year when they can replace it one way or another.

01:41:49   - Right, either with the M2 MacBook Air

01:41:52   that we just saw be announced

01:41:54   or with the 12 inch MacBook Air at 999.

01:41:57   - Or like there could be this weird thing

01:41:59   where the 12 inch costs more because whatever

01:42:01   and then like this current one sits in the 999 spot.

01:42:04   But like, look, Apple are not stupid.

01:42:07   I think like everyone can see that they know,

01:42:10   they know the reason, one of the reasons

01:42:13   the MacBook Air is the most popular computer

01:42:14   is because it's the cheapest one.

01:42:15   - Yes, 100%. - So they have decided

01:42:17   to keep that cheap one in at that point.

01:42:19   The MacBook--

01:42:20   - And they've decided that it's better that they do that

01:42:23   than lose $200 of margin on the new one.

01:42:27   - And also look at 2022.

01:42:30   They probably can't make enough of these M2 ones,

01:42:32   but I bet they got a lot of the M1 Macs sitting around.

01:42:35   - Yeah.

01:42:36   - You know, so, you know, or just it's maybe easier

01:42:38   to just keep making both of them for whatever reason, right?

01:42:42   So it is possible.

01:42:44   I reckon though, with the way that Apple's computers are now,

01:42:47   I reckon this will sell better than the MacBook did.

01:42:51   That would be, if I was just making a bet,

01:42:53   Apple laptops are hot again.

01:42:55   People know that they want them.

01:42:56   And you get the new one, oh the new one,

01:42:58   is that better than the old one,

01:43:00   which is also really good?

01:43:01   Yeah, it is.

01:43:01   And by the way, have you seen it?

01:43:03   Like, you know what I mean?

01:43:04   Like the MacBook, the 12 inch MacBook,

01:43:08   just looked like a smaller MacBook Air.

01:43:11   - It did.

01:43:12   This one looks really cool.

01:43:14   If only they would have done it in colors.

01:43:17   - If only, if only, but yeah.

01:43:19   So that's exactly it.

01:43:21   I think in the short term,

01:43:22   David is probably what he's suspecting here

01:43:24   is probably true, which is a lot of people

01:43:26   are still gonna buy the MacBook Air.

01:43:28   That's fine.

01:43:28   Apple, if Apple didn't want that to happen,

01:43:30   they would not be doing this, but they are.

01:43:33   And then it, you know, guess what?

01:43:35   It's not a defeat for Apple to sell a 999 M1 MacBook Air

01:43:40   'cause they're making a nice profit on that one too.

01:43:42   but in the long run, something else will take that slot.

01:43:44   It'll be fine.

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01:45:02   Now it's time for some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:45:06   For real this time.

01:45:09   The first one comes from Nepali who asks,

01:45:11   "There are rumors of an always on display

01:45:13   coming to the next iPhone."

01:45:15   As I spoke about earlier in the show.

01:45:16   "Do you think there could be a nightstand mode

01:45:19   like there is with the Apple Watch?"

01:45:21   - Oh, that's interesting.

01:45:23   - 'Cause I was thinking,

01:45:24   if you have a bunch of white light on the phone,

01:45:26   is it not gonna be bright?

01:45:28   Like how bright is that always on gonna be?

01:45:30   I don't know.

01:45:31   be that it could be color because that's what the Apple Watch does is it's um Apple Watch it's

01:45:39   actually is it green I want to say yeah and it also is off most of the time and then you you bump

01:45:46   it and it comes on comes on so what's it maybe my thinking is I'm always on display how bright is it

01:45:53   going to be at night right and what are they going to do for that I was imagining they would somehow

01:45:59   integrate it into the sleep mode, but I wouldn't want that because I don't want to necessarily set

01:46:04   that up. So maybe I'll have to, but I can imagine they will integrate it somehow with the sleep

01:46:09   thing. Yeah, sleep focus in fact. Yeah, and it will do the same thing of detecting with

01:46:14   the gyroscopes if you bump the nightstand to light it up. Maybe, and not show you all of your

01:46:20   information because one of the things the sleep mode is trying to do is not bother you with. It's

01:46:26   - It's also just wasting battery, right?

01:46:28   Like I know it's very, very small amount of battery needed

01:46:31   for the always on display, but if you're asleep,

01:46:33   you really don't need it.

01:46:35   - Right.

01:46:36   - You know, like, and I love that thing

01:46:37   with the Apple Watch where like, if I want to see the time,

01:46:40   I can just bump the nightstand

01:46:41   and the Apple Watch works it out.

01:46:43   I think that's so smart, you know?

01:46:45   So, but I do, this made me think, yeah,

01:46:48   they'll probably do something like that, right?

01:46:50   They're probably going to do something like that.

01:46:54   Darren asked, I noticed Apple having to choose which OS in the keynote in which to feature

01:47:01   some kind of ecosystem wide improvement during this year's keynote. Do you think it would

01:47:06   make more sense to separate core operating system functions, something like stage manager

01:47:12   to its own part of the keynote and then dig into app stuff when you need to? So I was

01:47:16   thinking about this question a bit. I'll see if I can give it a little bit more colour.

01:47:19   I was thinking about it. So kind of what Darren's getting to is we find out about stage manager

01:47:25   in Mac, even though it's on Mac and iPad, and we don't find out about the mail improvements

01:47:30   until say the iPad section, but even though it's going to be in the iPhone and the Mac,

01:47:35   and then every single time they do a different OS, they're like, oh, and it also gets all

01:47:40   of those features we spoke about earlier. So it made me think, could it be as we move

01:47:44   into this future where they're doing more and more cross platform features that they

01:47:49   They have a part of the keynote where they're like,

01:47:51   we have these features coming to all of our platforms today.

01:47:54   They are this, this, and this.

01:47:55   And then they're like,

01:47:56   and now we want to tell you about some Mac specific features.

01:47:59   And now we want to tell you about some iOS specific features

01:48:02   rather than this like just iOS, just Mac, just iPad.

01:48:07   - Yeah.

01:48:08   You can see them struggling with it.

01:48:10   - It's complicated.

01:48:11   - I saw, I forget even where there were so many different

01:48:13   interviews last week, but somebody asked about this.

01:48:18   I think I saw it somewhere and that like,

01:48:20   that there was definitely,

01:48:21   there's been discussion about it inside Apple

01:48:24   is the impression I get,

01:48:25   but that they think this is the right way to do it.

01:48:27   I feel like it's inevitable that they're going to have to

01:48:29   change their structure because

01:48:31   I don't actually think it works very well.

01:48:33   I think that they are introducing so many premium,

01:48:36   high level Apple platform features every year

01:48:40   that are like, these are our features for the year

01:48:42   and they go everywhere.

01:48:44   That it's, they should probably structure it

01:48:47   so that they announce those features and then tell you

01:48:50   what the ramifications of them are

01:48:53   across all of their platforms.

01:48:54   And even on tvOS, it'll do this thing or whatever it is.

01:48:58   And on the watch, you'll see it here.

01:49:00   And like there are a lot of these things

01:49:01   that I actually think they make less of an impact

01:49:04   because they tell you about it in the iPhone

01:49:08   and then they say, "Oh yeah, it's also on the Mac too."

01:49:11   There's that moment on the, is it the iPad presentation

01:49:14   where Craig Federighi basically says,

01:49:16   "Oh, look at all these things that we already announced,

01:49:19   they're on the iPad."

01:49:20   And now let's move on.

01:49:22   And it's just, it's one of those things where

01:49:25   I think it would be better structured

01:49:28   with the top level stuff that's across

01:49:30   all of Apple's platforms described in those terms.

01:49:34   And then you can break down and have a conversation

01:49:37   about some specific new changes in each of the OSs.

01:49:40   But they clearly don't want to do that.

01:49:42   But I feel like the direction they're going,

01:49:44   They're gonna have to revisit this and rethink it.

01:49:46   - Yep.

01:49:48   Jeffrey asks, "Any idea why the A12Z,

01:49:51   which ran Mac OS basically fine with the Apple Silicon DTK,

01:49:55   is left out of stage manager functionality in iPad OS?

01:49:58   Is it just segmentation?

01:50:00   Do I now really need to trade in my 25 month old iPad Pro?"

01:50:05   I will read a quote that Apple gave to a few outlets,

01:50:08   including Renee Ritchie.

01:50:10   "Stage manager is a fully integrated experience

01:50:13   that provides all new windowing experience that is incredibly fast and responsive and

01:50:21   allows users to run 8 apps simultaneously across iPad and an external display with up

01:50:27   to 6K resolution. Delivering this experience with the immediacy users expect from iPad's

01:50:32   Touch First experience requires large internal memory, incredibly fast storage and flexible

01:50:37   external display IO all of which are delivered by iPads with the M1 chip. I'm

01:50:43   going to assume this was said to him verbally and he's dictated it because

01:50:46   that is a very weirdly written thing. The word experience is used a hundred times

01:50:51   in there. Basically I think this goes back to what we were talking about earlier.

01:50:55   Hey look I understand because I had to buy a new iPad for this right? I got and

01:50:59   I didn't want to buy but I wanted to try out this feature because I felt like I

01:51:03   kind of needed to to be able to talk about it and I'm pleased I have because

01:51:07   it's really helped inform me in ways that the presentation didn't. I think the problem

01:51:13   here is it could do it, I guess, but it's probably not compared to do it as well. Definitely

01:51:19   not when you put the external display in the mix, right? Be my expectation. And so then

01:51:25   I guess they're just like, they don't want to do this thing where they're like, it works

01:51:29   on this for this and these for this. What I will say is it is a multi, there are multiple

01:51:36   years of products now I guess that it's not like it what it's not like is the

01:51:43   issue they have with the Apple watch right now which I think is a wild one

01:51:45   you can buy a series 3 watch today well run it won't run the next update at least

01:51:52   with I mean I know you can't do it with the iPad mini but you wouldn't want to

01:51:55   trust me right but at least all of the iPads that are available now most of

01:52:00   them have been available for a while you can do it with but I understand why it

01:52:04   it frustrates people. I do, I get it. But you gotta, again, lines need to be drawn somewhere.

01:52:09   I really don't think they do it purely to just wring every dollar out of people.

01:52:14   So what I'd say is the, it runs Mac OS just fine in the DTK. Well, just fine except that

01:52:23   was never shipped in a product and so was it just fine or was it good enough for developers

01:52:27   to use as a first glance? Second, that was running Mac OS, this is running iPad OS. It's

01:52:32   It's a different operating system.

01:52:34   Third, the M1 is not the A12Z.

01:52:37   The M1 is different.

01:52:38   The M1 was built with some very specific things in mind.

01:52:41   I don't know for sure, but it sure seems like

01:52:45   Apple had a confidence in the M1 being capable

01:52:48   of delivering these features,

01:52:50   and didn't have a confidence in the A12Z.

01:52:52   Otherwise, they could have literally drawn the line

01:52:55   at the A12Z.

01:52:56   One product would have been included.

01:52:59   'Cause there's only one product with the A12Z, right?

01:53:02   because the DTK doesn't count, it's that iPad Pro.

01:53:05   But they didn't.

01:53:07   Is it because of the external display support?

01:53:11   Is it because of the memory and the SSD speed

01:53:14   for doing virtual memory and paging?

01:53:16   Did they have a moment where they said,

01:53:18   well, we could bring it to the A12Z,

01:53:20   but we're gonna need to do a bunch of things

01:53:22   to like limit the number of windows or--

01:53:25   - I was thinking RAM.

01:53:26   And like it might have been that

01:53:27   if you had the one terabyte one,

01:53:29   which had more RAM in it,

01:53:30   maybe it would work. - Maybe.

01:53:32   - But then at that point, what, you're gonna say,

01:53:33   if you have this one iPad of this generation,

01:53:37   it will work for you?

01:53:39   - Yeah, and I think that there's just

01:53:41   a practicality standpoint where at some point they're like,

01:53:44   it's not worth us doing extra work

01:53:47   to add that particular machine's compatibility

01:53:50   given all the work we're relying on that's on the M1.

01:53:54   My guess is that this was targeted at M1 from the beginning,

01:53:58   that the whole feature was built on the hardware

01:54:01   on an M1 iPad and that that was what they,

01:54:05   and from that decision comes everything else,

01:54:08   which is just because the A12Z ran the DTK for Mac OS fine,

01:54:12   doesn't necessarily mean it would run it fine.

01:54:14   And it also may be that they very specifically were like,

01:54:17   look, we're not gonna do this until we reach M1

01:54:19   because we do need these,

01:54:21   whether it's a specific feature

01:54:23   or whether it's just the ability to have fast enough SSD

01:54:28   and enough RAM to build the virtual memory system

01:54:31   with paging and have the multiple windows open

01:54:34   and support an external display

01:54:36   and like you roll it all together and that's what you get.

01:54:38   So, you know, it is the old question,

01:54:42   which is a choice was made, obviously.

01:54:47   But my guess is that it,

01:54:51   usually when Apple makes these decisions,

01:54:53   it's not always the case,

01:54:55   but usually it feels like when Apple makes these decisions,

01:54:57   it's because they've decided that the amount of work

01:55:00   to get something that would be a poorer experience

01:55:02   isn't worth it and that they wanna have it

01:55:04   be a really good experience.

01:55:06   And so they're gonna draw the line where they do.

01:55:08   It does not always happen that way, right?

01:55:10   Sometimes there's like a new photo feature or something

01:55:12   where we're like, well, why is that not on the old iPhone?

01:55:14   And the answer is, 'cause they didn't want to.

01:55:17   But mostly I think not because I think they target

01:55:23   specific features for specific hardware.

01:55:25   And that's my guess about the ultimate answer here is

01:55:28   this was a feature designed for M1.

01:55:31   And so they never even considered designing it for A12C.

01:55:34   There's dogs.

01:55:36   - There's dogs, the dogs are upset.

01:55:37   - I know those dogs.

01:55:38   - Yeah?

01:55:39   - Yeah.

01:55:40   They're allowed to do this, sometimes they do this.

01:55:42   It's Bailey and Chico.

01:55:45   That's a big dog, little dog action happening.

01:55:48   - We're gonna take those dogs as a message

01:55:50   to wrap up this episode of Upgrade.

01:55:52   - Dogs are telling us we gotta go?

01:55:53   - Yep, the dogs are playing us out.

01:55:55   being played out by the dogs. Thank you so much for listening to this week's Summer of

01:56:00   Fun initiation. I don't think we actually mentioned it at the beginning, so we're in

01:56:03   the Summer of Fun now, we started a week early. Usually Summer of Fun will start next week,

01:56:07   but hey, it makes sense to start now. We're outside in the sun, in the California sun.

01:56:10   It's fun fun fun in the California sun. Jason's wearing his Summer of Fun t-shirt too, which

01:56:15   you didn't mention. On brand. If you'd like to find us online, go to sixcolors.com and

01:56:20   and

01:56:41   and support this show by going to getupgradeplus.com where you get longer ad-free versions of Upgrade

01:56:47   every single week. Thank you so much to everybody that supports the show by doing so. We appreciate

01:56:52   you greatly. We'll be back next week in much more regular environments. I'll be at home and you'll

01:56:58   be at home. Probably. Like 12 feet over there. Honestly with the way my week has gone who knows

01:57:03   if I'll be home. You know I could be stuck somewhere anywhere. We'll find out next time

01:57:08   on upgrade until then say goodbye Jason Snell. Woof!

01:57:12   [MUSIC]