408: Upgrade VR


00:00:00   [Ding!]

00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 408.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Ladder, Sourcegraph, and Trade.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi, Myke Hurley. I have some breaking news from our show document.

00:00:23   [Doot doot doot doot doot doot doot]

00:00:24   Uh, first off, the number was wrong, but you caught it, so well done.

00:00:28   Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

00:00:29   And second, we have officially, well I have officially and you didn't revert it,

00:00:33   uh moved our entire show document into Helvetica.

00:00:36   Helvetica Neue, not just Helvetica.

00:00:39   Neue, yeah well I mean because that was the option was Helvetica Neue but...

00:00:42   If one was to, this being you, look at the version history of today's document,

00:00:49   I tried on many different fonts today to see if there was something that I preferred instead.

00:00:55   I tried to work out if it was possible to upload your own font to Google Docs and just

00:01:01   gave up on that, basically immediately because I didn't see a plus button anywhere.

00:01:05   And I've decided, I let it settle in because I didn't like it at first, did not like it

00:01:09   at all because we have used, what is it?

00:01:13   Aerial.

00:01:14   No, we were using a combination I think of Aerial and Trebuchet for, Trebuchet was the

00:01:21   headers, all of the headers were in Trebuchet.

00:01:24   I don't know why, but they were.

00:01:26   It was the hair style that we'd set.

00:01:28   We had been using that

00:01:30   since the beginning of the show, basically.

00:01:33   So it was very uncomfortable to me to begin with today,

00:01:37   but I've let it settle in and Helvetica Neue

00:01:40   is much more comfortable to read.

00:01:43   So I am ready to embark on this new journey with you.

00:01:47   - This is the best redesign ever

00:01:49   because it's a redesign of something

00:01:51   that nobody who listens will ever see.

00:01:53   (laughs)

00:01:54   But we see it.

00:01:56   - We see it. - And that's the important.

00:01:56   - It's very important to us.

00:01:58   - So well, thank you for trying on other fonts.

00:01:59   I just, we talked about it last time

00:02:01   and I was kind of appalled that we had just gone in

00:02:03   on Arial as the default choice.

00:02:05   - Yes.

00:02:06   - Especially when Helvetica is right there, no yeah.

00:02:09   And so yeah, I appreciate it.

00:02:11   I did toy around with the headings being in kind of like

00:02:14   wacky things, not necessarily like Comic Sans,

00:02:18   but I did consider like Pacifico,

00:02:21   which is super scripty header font,

00:02:24   or lobster, which is also very stylish.

00:02:27   And I thought, well, they're unreadable and although fun.

00:02:31   And no, so here we are, we're in the Helvetica era

00:02:35   of episode 408, not 407.

00:02:38   Because while you and I both played with the fonts

00:02:41   on this thing, neither of, no, what are you doing now?

00:02:44   Neither of us actually updated the number.

00:02:46   - I'm changing the headings to one of my favorite fonts

00:02:49   in Google Docs which is called Caesar dressing, which is like a Julius Caesar themed font.

00:02:57   But we're gonna revert all of that. Let me supply you to lobster. This is the worst kind

00:03:03   of show content. And Pacifico. No we are reverting backwards Jason because I have a hashtag Snortall

00:03:10   question for you. This week comes from BK and let's see if this will cause equal amounts

00:03:15   of unrest. Is it the Burger King? Is it the Burger King himself? Yes, the Burger King

00:03:20   would like to know. What is your favorite draft style? Related, why is the upgrade draft

00:03:27   not a snake draft? Myke's afraid of snakes, that's why. I don't like snakes. What is a

00:03:34   draft style? Well, a snake draft is a type of draft, right? And the type of draft that

00:03:40   we do has a name, right?

00:03:43   - I don't know if it has an, I mean, it's just a,

00:03:45   it's just a sequential draft or something.

00:03:48   Okay, so we've, I believe we've covered this before,

00:03:51   but just to be clear, a snake draft is when you have

00:03:54   a large number of participants and a limited pool of choices

00:03:58   and so what you try to do to even things out is,

00:04:03   is you go down the list for the first round

00:04:06   and then back up the list for the second round

00:04:08   and then down the list for the third round

00:04:10   And so if you're playing fantasy football

00:04:12   or something like that, and you're in an eight team league,

00:04:14   if you're pick eight, which is the eighth best player,

00:04:17   that's pretty sad, but you get the ninth best player

00:04:19   as well, whereas the person who gets the number one player,

00:04:23   hooray, they also then have to wait until number 16.

00:04:26   And so theoretically, it's all evening out.

00:04:30   We don't do that because one, there's only two of us.

00:04:32   So we're just taking turns

00:04:34   and picking two in a row is not fun.

00:04:37   We're just alternating.

00:04:38   And who goes first?

00:04:39   we just have a decision about who won the last time and that impacts who goes first

00:04:44   and then we just take turns.

00:04:46   I think people question our draft style, I think mostly because you win pretty much all

00:04:53   the time. So I think that there is a thought that maybe the draft style doesn't favor the

00:04:59   ability for the loser to win, but I do not believe that's the case. Because this is the

00:05:04   thing, because you win and get to go first, I think people think that you are naturally

00:05:08   taking all the best things, but I don't think that's true.

00:05:12   Because in the end it ends up being that I get first pick, but that's it. And then after

00:05:16   that, you know, once we're alternating, we're alternating. You miss one, the number one,

00:05:23   but that's about it. We could have done it the other way. I don't really know why we

00:05:26   do it, winner picks. The idea is to give the winner an advantage because the winner won.

00:05:30   It's what you get for winning. You get to go first.

00:05:34   Instead of doing it the other way, which is we're sad for the losers so they get to go

00:05:36   first and have the advantage the next time. It's like when you're playing pickup basketball,

00:05:41   does the winner take it? Or does, you know, whoever didn't score get the ball next? That's,

00:05:46   you know, that's a rule thing. You can decide.

00:05:48   Will he pick so many items that I just don't think it's like a thing? I don't think it

00:05:54   adds that much of an advantage at all.

00:05:58   I'm gonna go more broadly here with the question of favorite draft style and say my favorite

00:06:02   draft style is what you can hear on a million episodes of The Incomparable, which is you

00:06:06   You get a big bunch of people together and they can literally pick anything, but within

00:06:12   where there's the possibility for collision.

00:06:17   Because what's fun about that is that there's an infinite number of choices, so you're not

00:06:21   picking crossing items off a list, because that gets a little bit boring because you

00:06:25   start to see the trends and all of that.

00:06:28   And that's a strategy thing, but on the incomparable, it's broader than that.

00:06:31   We'll just have a topic and anybody can fit into it.

00:06:34   What I like about that is first off, people will pick weird things that nobody expects.

00:06:37   But it also still has, since you've constrained it by concept, the possibility for somebody

00:06:43   to snipe someone else's pick, and you end up with these wonderful moments where somebody

00:06:47   picks something out of the blue and you think, "Well, that was weird," and then you hear

00:06:50   somebody else who is very angry because they were going to pick that too.

00:06:55   And I love that.

00:06:56   And it's a large group, which means you end up kind of having that thing where it feels

00:07:00   like a draft, you know, where you've got a bunch of people picking different things and

00:07:03   picking things off the board. And that's my favorite draft style. So that's my answer.

00:07:08   If you would like to send in a question for us to open a future episode of Upgrade, just

00:07:12   send out a tweet with the hashtag SnellTalk just like BK did. Or you can use question

00:07:16   mark SnellTalk in the relay FM members discord. And you may be thinking to yourself, why on

00:07:21   earth are they talking about drafts all of a sudden? Because next week we're going to

00:07:25   be performing the WWDC draft here on Upgrade. So if you're new to around here, instead of

00:07:32   of your typical predictions or wild prediction game,

00:07:36   we play a draft.

00:07:37   So we take turns of making predictions

00:07:40   and then we score them during the keynote

00:07:43   and then for the keynote episode,

00:07:45   and then there are winners.

00:07:46   And basically Jason wins all of the drafts.

00:07:50   However, I think I might talk about this next time.

00:07:53   WWDC is where I tend to fare best

00:07:55   and have fare best in the past, but we'll find out.

00:07:57   - Yeah, I've got a little, I don't do as well at WWDC,

00:08:00   so you're one. - We'll find out.

00:08:02   So that's gonna be next week's episode.

00:08:04   We do record every episode of Upgrade Live,

00:08:07   and we'll be recording live Monday at 9 a.m. Pacific,

00:08:11   noon Eastern, five British summertime,

00:08:13   five p.m. British summertime,

00:08:14   if you wanna come and hang out.

00:08:15   - 8 a.m. in Alaska.

00:08:17   - Excellent, thank you very much for filling that in

00:08:19   for us there, for all of our Alaskan Upgradians.

00:08:23   So you can come and hang out,

00:08:24   and we'll be talking some prediction stuff.

00:08:27   - It'll be Memorial Day. - And doing the draft.

00:08:29   It sure will. - It'll be 8 a.m. in Alaska.

00:08:31   And in Upgrade Plus today, we're going to talk about our concerns as we lead into draft time.

00:08:37   If you want to get Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com,

00:08:40   where you will get longer ad-free episodes of Upgrade every single week.

00:08:46   I have some follow up for you, Jason.

00:08:49   - Okay.

00:08:49   - Apple have, they have delayed the next steps of their hybrid working plan due to rising

00:08:56   COVID cases in the Bay Area.

00:08:58   - Yeah.

00:08:58   So we've spoken about this a bunch in the past and just as a this will help clarify it because I'd honestly forgotten where they were

00:09:05   in the process

00:09:06   Apple has been

00:09:08   conducting currently a pilot program of employees working two days in the office and three days at home and

00:09:14   Then I think within the next couple of weeks or so the original plan was they were then going to ask

00:09:20   Everyone to come in for three days and then spend two days at home. That was where they were moving towards

00:09:26   They will now not be moving forward with the planned three days in the office for everyone,

00:09:32   with no date of when they will reassess this.

00:09:35   And furthermore, those that are currently on that two-day in the office pilot program

00:09:40   now have the option of fully working from home again if they feel more comfortable.

00:09:44   Yeah, I will say, for people who are like, "Well, wait a second.

00:09:49   I thought we were over this."

00:09:51   I live in the Bay Area and I have had in the last couple of weeks, a half a dozen people

00:09:57   I know in the Bay Area who've never had COVID before get COVID.

00:10:01   So it is everywhere right now here.

00:10:06   The newest variant of the variant of the variant that is very transmissible and it's getting

00:10:12   a lot of people.

00:10:13   So I got to see first hand for the first time an exposure notification.

00:10:20   So that was fun.

00:10:21   - Congratulations, you know.

00:10:22   - Yeah, very exciting.

00:10:24   Somebody in my family got an exposure notification.

00:10:27   So that was great.

00:10:28   That everybody's fine, but yeah.

00:10:33   Anyway, so I think this makes sense, right?

00:10:36   And this shows you one of the challenges

00:10:39   of having any policy like this is,

00:10:42   this stuff is gonna kind of ebb and flow anyway.

00:10:45   And so I feel like, I mean, we'll see,

00:10:49   I know Apple's got a corporate insistence

00:10:51   on people being present and that a lot of Apple employees

00:10:54   don't love that idea.

00:10:56   I'm sure there are Apple employees who like it

00:10:57   and there are ones who don't like it.

00:10:59   But it strikes me that when you've got this kind of ebb

00:11:02   and flow of a pandemic going on,

00:11:05   maybe you should build your business

00:11:09   so that people can work either place

00:11:11   and choose what makes best.

00:11:16   - It would just be easier, right?

00:11:18   Like at a certain point, it's just easier if you stop,

00:11:21   if you lean into let's be as flexible as possible,

00:11:25   rather than like, well, we need to be forced

00:11:28   in flexibility again, but only for a little while.

00:11:30   It's complicated.

00:11:32   Apple are also asking employees to wear masks again

00:11:36   in Apple Park in common areas.

00:11:38   So if you're in hallways, meeting rooms,

00:11:41   cafeterias, open office plan, please wear a mask.

00:11:45   They're also going to be asking employees

00:11:47   in 100 US retail stores across the country

00:11:50   to be wearing masks again.

00:11:52   So this is a big switch around in the COVID protocols.

00:11:57   As of right now, there has been no change to the WWDC plan

00:12:02   of having developers visit Apple Park.

00:12:04   I mean, we mentioned it at the time,

00:12:07   the guidance on the website said that masks were optional.

00:12:10   So I don't know what,

00:12:11   that now doesn't match Apple's guidance for its employees.

00:12:15   - Right.

00:12:16   All of this, but they at the time said very rightly,

00:12:20   all of this is subject to change.

00:12:21   - Right, so they were already gonna do,

00:12:24   require a negative test.

00:12:26   And what I've heard is that the plan was for this

00:12:29   to be outside, which would mitigate a lot of it, right?

00:12:32   Like COVID spread outside is pretty minimal.

00:12:35   There are very few examples of anything like that.

00:12:38   That said, they could also require masks.

00:12:41   - Presumably that developer sent a building

00:12:43   or whatever's not gonna be an outside environment.

00:12:45   - If they take a tour of the developer center,

00:12:46   yeah, they may, if they keep that,

00:12:48   and they may cancel the whole thing,

00:12:50   but if they keep it at all,

00:12:51   they may change it to be small groups,

00:12:54   masked, passing through areas relatively quickly,

00:12:59   and then moving on.

00:12:59   I mean, they'll have to figure out how they do it,

00:13:01   but this is just, you know,

00:13:02   this is what they have to do,

00:13:04   because there is a surge happening right now

00:13:06   in the Bay Area at least,

00:13:08   and so they have to, they're gonna have to adjust.

00:13:12   - Yeah.

00:13:13   It's gonna be interesting to see

00:13:14   the next few weeks play out. Yeah. But I just, I think the larger story here though is that

00:13:18   they are so insistent on wanting this three-day return to work plan. And I would say, you know,

00:13:23   isn't this a little clue that perhaps being more flexible is really the right way to approach this?

00:13:28   And that, you know, because they were, because they're having people who were doing two days

00:13:33   a week, right? And it's like, well, now three or none, something like that. And it's just,

00:13:39   I don't know. I know that this is a complex issue,

00:13:43   but I wish that the powers that be were more flexible

00:13:47   because saying that managers have flexibility

00:13:52   to make decisions, but also having a corporate edict

00:13:54   that we want everybody present

00:13:56   doesn't really give managers as much flexibility as you think.

00:13:59   So, anyway, we'll keep watching it.

00:14:02   The world may affect Apple's policies

00:14:05   more than anything else.

00:14:06   -I would just say as, like, a capital

00:14:08   to a previous discussion for the people that were hoping or saying Apple should have just come back

00:14:13   with WWDC this year. This is why they didn't. Because it's too soon. You couldn't do it. You

00:14:19   couldn't do it. You can't get away with it. Every little conference, every little conference that

00:14:23   I've seen in recent months, and I've thought to myself, "Really? You're having a conference? Okay."

00:14:31   and then comes the post conference, oh, you know, 50 people got COVID.

00:14:36   So maybe a little premature for that.

00:14:39   This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at Sourcegraph.

00:14:43   So you've hired a brilliant developer, right?

00:14:45   That's great, but now you have to get them on boarded.

00:14:47   If your company is growing, onboarding new developers will be a common occurrence,

00:14:51   but it is a huge undertaking every single time.

00:14:55   One of the biggest challenges for new hires is to get up to speed with the project that

00:14:59   that them and their new team is working on.

00:15:01   This can be tricky if the code basis

00:15:03   that your developers are working in are already huge.

00:15:06   Thankfully, Sourcegraph makes it easy to move fast

00:15:09   even in those big code bases.

00:15:12   Developers know that knowledge is most useful

00:15:15   when it's findable.

00:15:16   Centralization is helpful, but given the fact

00:15:19   that most companies store knowledge

00:15:21   in at least two different locations,

00:15:23   how do you make knowledge accessible

00:15:25   to those that need it when they need it?

00:15:27   As a code intelligence platform,

00:15:29   Sourcegraph gives developers what they need to drive their own learning over time and

00:15:34   in different situations.

00:15:36   Teams without Sourcegraph need to rely on asking colleagues or reviewing out-of-date

00:15:40   documentation which is cumbersome and time consuming.

00:15:43   But with Sourcegraph, every developer can search across millions of repositories to

00:15:47   find specific code, saving time for themselves and everyone else.

00:15:52   So when questions do come up, you know it's the big stuff that's worthy of extra time.

00:15:57   Sourcegraph was created to make developers lives easier, and today they work with leading

00:16:01   companies across every industry including 3 out of the 5 top tech companies, plus companies

00:16:07   like Paypal, Uber, Plaid, GE, Reddit, Atlassian and many more.

00:16:12   Visit about.sourcegraph.com to learn more to find out why some of the biggest tech companies

00:16:20   in the world use Sourcegraph and to see what it can do for yours.

00:16:24   Or just click the link in the show notes to let them know you heard about them from this

00:16:27   show.

00:16:28   Our thanks to Sourcegraph for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:16:32   Rumour round up!

00:16:33   Yeehaw!

00:16:34   There is a returning rumour, like it's walking into town and everyone's stopped and looked,

00:16:42   you know, like glasses breaking, people are shrieking because Jon Prosser is back once

00:16:47   again to report that the next Apple Watch will have a flat sided design.

00:16:51   It's the man in the black hat.

00:16:53   He's moseyed into town, John Prosser.

00:16:55   Yee-haw, I'm back again with my old rumors.

00:16:59   This is based this time on some reports of a flat display

00:17:04   going into production, along with the existing CAD files

00:17:07   and rumors from last time around.

00:17:10   I actually do believe that there was the plan

00:17:15   for the last Apple Watch to have an updated design.

00:17:18   I am in that camp of people.

00:17:22   I felt like it should have happened and it was weird when it didn't, especially when

00:17:27   like the new Apple Watch like is like, "Oh, the screen is a little bit bigger and now

00:17:32   it curves over the side!" Like why would it? It's all very strange. But this rumor

00:17:37   is now suggesting that the next Apple Watch, not only will it have flat sides, the screen

00:17:44   will be totally flat on top to go all the way.

00:17:48   So I looked at the renders of this too, and what I would say is nobody get too excited,

00:17:54   because this is not a break.

00:17:56   This is really, as far as I can tell, not a real break from Apple Watch design.

00:18:02   It's more like a refinement, because what it's saying is, you know how the sides on

00:18:05   the Apple Watch are a little bit curved?

00:18:07   Well, what if they were less curved?

00:18:09   And you know how the top glass has the little kind of curved edges?

00:18:13   What if they were more flush and flat?

00:18:15   It would feel different, and Apple would be like, "Oh, look at this beautiful flat design,"

00:18:20   and all of that. But in practice, if you look at even a render of what this might look like,

00:18:28   it's an Apple Watch, right? It doesn't look like they've transformed it into a new thing.

00:18:31   It's not circular like the Google one.

00:18:33   No, they're just pulling in the... If you think of it as like an inflatable bag or something,

00:18:38   they're like deflating it a little bit. They're pulling in the outside edges that were a little

00:18:42   bit bulgy and making it a little bit svelter but it's not a it's not a radical change it's

00:18:49   a it looks like it might be a nice tweak to it but it's that's about it.

00:18:54   David: It's something I want personally because I you know I said this at the time that the

00:18:59   silhouette of the Apple Watch has remained too similar for me for too long and I would

00:19:04   like to see that like that to me is just like enough of a refinement that I would be really

00:19:09   happy in the same way that the iPhone design did this and to me they've vastly improved

00:19:15   the look of the phone right it went from having the rounded sides on you know the original

00:19:20   ten model or whatever and then the 10s and probably the 11 and then the 12 they just

00:19:25   flattened it down and I remain a big fan of that flat sided design on the iPhone so I

00:19:30   would like to see this come to the Apple watch you know don't forget this is a year where

00:19:34   rumors are pointing towards three Apple watches entering the lineup. So a regular Apple Watch

00:19:40   Series 8, a new Apple Watch SE, and a rugged sporty athletic watch.

00:19:48   That's right. That's your Apple Watch that you repel down from the side of a mountain

00:19:52   and land on a skateboard and roll down to a river where you jump into a whitewater raft.

00:20:00   That watch. That's the one.

00:20:02   need to remember that because that could be worth a point for you in the draft.

00:20:05   It could literally be a video that they make. I would genuinely not be surprised

00:20:11   if it was something along those lines. Sorry they parachute to the rock face

00:20:16   first and then rappel down. I apologize for leaving that part out.

00:20:20   Because I do, the marketing of that one is going to be interesting to me

00:20:24   because they have, if they make that product like a more rugged watch, right,

00:20:29   they have to present it in such a way that doesn't make the current watch look fragile.

00:20:36   So that's going to be an interesting marketing decision that they make and I'll be keen to see that.

00:20:41   Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that Apple could release a new HomePod in late 2022 or early 2023.

00:20:50   "May not be much innovation in hardware design."

00:20:53   "So why?"

00:20:56   My initial point was like "So why?"

00:21:00   Kuo goes on to say "Smart speakers are undoubtedly one of the essential elements of the home

00:21:05   ecosystem but I think Apple is still figuring out how to succeed in this market."

00:21:10   The MacRumors article written about this tweet from Yingqi Kuo referenced a report that I'd

00:21:16   forgotten about from some time ago from Mark Gurman that reported that Apple was working

00:21:22   on a HomePod that would be physically sized between the Mini and the original. So maybe

00:21:28   this is that.

00:21:29   - This is my guess is, and it's just making this up, but imagine you go back to the HomePod

00:21:37   Mini because you're trying to get something that's lower in price, that's more affordable

00:21:42   for people, and then start from there and build back up. So instead of bringing the

00:21:49   original HomePod back, imagine a HomePod Mini Max kind of thing, right?

00:21:55   Which they might call the HomePod, but it's going to be the second

00:21:58   generation HomePod and it's going to be more like the Mini, but better sounding

00:22:03   and a little bit bigger and cost a little bit more.

00:22:05   I think there's room for that product.

00:22:07   I think people like the HomePod Mini, but the HomePod Mini does get knocked

00:22:11   for its relatively weak sound.

00:22:14   It's fine, but it's not great.

00:22:17   and you could build a bigger, better HomePod mini

00:22:22   for a little more money that would not be

00:22:24   the original HomePod in terms of everything that's in it.

00:22:28   And that sounds like a product.

00:22:32   And so may not be much innovation in hardware design.

00:22:34   Does that sound a bigger HomePod mini

00:22:36   that sounds a little bit better?

00:22:38   Doesn't sound super innovative, right?

00:22:39   But I would argue that maybe the original HomePods

00:22:42   fatal flaw was so much innovation in hardware design

00:22:46   that it was over engineered and cost a lot

00:22:48   and that made it a tough sell.

00:22:50   - I hope they do make it

00:22:51   because I really like my original HomePod pair a lot.

00:22:56   Like I think it's great.

00:22:58   I love the sound that I get from it paired to my Apple TV.

00:23:02   And I worry about what will replace it.

00:23:05   Like eventually, right?

00:23:08   Like what product will I have to replace them

00:23:11   at some point in the future

00:23:12   when these ones won't work anymore

00:23:15   because of whatever reason, right?

00:23:17   They just stopped supporting it or something,

00:23:18   which eventually you would assume would happen.

00:23:21   And so if they made something a bit beefier

00:23:23   than the HomePod Mini, it would give me an upgrade path,

00:23:26   which I would be pleased for.

00:23:29   - Yeah, imagine a 149 HomePod

00:23:32   that sounds appreciably better than the HomePod Mini.

00:23:38   149, 179, maybe 199, but something in there.

00:23:44   appreciably better than the HomePod mini.

00:23:47   Not as good as the HomePod,

00:23:48   but appreciably better than the mini.

00:23:50   I think they could do that.

00:23:51   And I think that's gonna be,

00:23:52   I mean, if you think about the HomePod,

00:23:56   I mean, I know Federico has talked about this

00:23:58   on Connected a lot.

00:23:59   The HomePod mini is like the mini version of what?

00:24:01   Of nothing, because the other product has been discontinued.

00:24:04   It is weird, right?

00:24:05   And so you would wanna have something

00:24:08   that people who want something that's a little bit better

00:24:10   could pay more money for.

00:24:12   Like, Apple's really good at that, right?

00:24:14   of having the, well, you can get the $99 speakers,

00:24:17   but we also have the 149, 179 that sound a lot better.

00:24:22   That's a key part of Apple strategy

00:24:24   and it doesn't exist right now.

00:24:25   So that's my guess.

00:24:28   And I think that could be good, right?

00:24:29   I mean, it may not satisfy everybody

00:24:30   who loves the original HomePods,

00:24:32   but it may satisfy, right,

00:24:34   you're trading maybe some of the people

00:24:36   who really like the quality of those HomePods

00:24:38   for new people who were never gonna buy

00:24:40   at the HomePod price,

00:24:41   but might buy at the new HomePod price.

00:24:43   - Mm-hmm, yeah, and you would assume

00:24:46   that if they had no intention of coming back

00:24:49   to this product, they would have just called

00:24:50   the HomePod mini the HomePod, and like,

00:24:52   you know, it would have been no sense

00:24:54   to call it the HomePod mini.

00:24:55   - Right.

00:24:56   - So yeah, I mean, it could be,

00:24:58   I mean, what this isn't then is the other product

00:25:01   that we're hoping for is this integrated

00:25:02   Apple TV HomePod experience,

00:25:04   but that does feel like a longer way away.

00:25:07   It's also not-- - HomePod TV.

00:25:08   - You know, the expectation of one day,

00:25:11   a HomePod of a screen on it or whatever.

00:25:13   This is what Ming-Chi Kuo is talking about here is none of those things.

00:25:16   Right.

00:25:17   Um, which is, it's intriguing, but, uh, we'll see.

00:25:20   And display analyst, Ross Young is reporting that a 27 inch mini LED display

00:25:26   would now be launching in October.

00:25:28   Young had previously said that this could come in June, but Apple has moved

00:25:32   manufacturer for this product resulting in the timeline slipping some.

00:25:36   Uh, it's expected that this would be something like a studio display pro and

00:25:41   as well as mini LED would feature ProMotion,

00:25:43   so the 120 frames or the variable refresh rate up to 120.

00:25:48   I had assumed too that this could probably,

00:25:51   this panel form the basis for a Pro iMac, right?

00:25:55   It seems like it ticks all those boxes.

00:25:57   - And I think the answer is gonna be,

00:25:58   this is gonna be very expensive

00:25:59   and it's gonna be promoted as being for the Mac Pro, right?

00:26:04   - Yeah, I guess you could,

00:26:07   this product could also replace the Pro Display XDR

00:26:10   for people, right?

00:26:11   Because if it's mini LED, it has,

00:26:14   it will do a better job, a lot of what the Pro Display

00:26:17   can do. - Right.

00:26:19   - I mean, and I would expect probably for less money.

00:26:23   - But it's a 27 inch, less money than the XDR,

00:26:25   but the XDR is so much larger than a 27 inch display.

00:26:29   So maybe they update the XDR and this and they have three.

00:26:33   That's kind of wild.

00:26:35   I don't know.

00:26:36   - How big is the studio display?

00:26:38   - It's 27.

00:26:39   - Oh, interesting that they would have two models

00:26:41   at two different displays at the same size, even though--

00:26:46   - Right, that's--

00:26:47   - That's why I just got confused then.

00:26:48   - And the XDR is 32.

00:26:50   - Yes.

00:26:51   - So it's an interesting thought.

00:26:53   And it may be that the studio display exists

00:26:55   because it got delayed, and also it allows them

00:26:57   to have a lower price point than this mini LED version,

00:26:59   which they will sell for even more money,

00:27:01   and people be even angrier about any bets

00:27:03   on the webcam on that one, by the way.

00:27:05   Interesting.

00:27:06   That would be interesting to see what happens there.

00:27:08   and take it all out, take it all out.

00:27:12   And then the Pro Display XCR, what's the fate of that?

00:27:14   Is that a one-off product or are they gonna,

00:27:16   I know there were some rumors out there

00:27:17   that they might do a new version of that.

00:27:19   And maybe the answer is that the new Pro Display

00:27:23   will come in two sizes, right?

00:27:26   A 27 and a 32.

00:27:28   And that's the successor. - That would make sense.

00:27:32   I think that this product seems

00:27:36   better than the Pro Display for most people

00:27:39   in pretty much every way I would assume, right?

00:27:41   Like you would also assume this will,

00:27:44   they will sell this like they do the current one, right?

00:27:47   Where like you just choose,

00:27:48   it comes with the standard stand,

00:27:49   you choose your own stand.

00:27:51   So they get, they'd be able to distance themselves

00:27:54   from the $1,000 stand thing.

00:27:56   This seems like the successor to that.

00:27:59   And then also they would have a nice strong lineup

00:28:02   of models, right?

00:28:03   So you've got the 27 inch studio display,

00:28:06   27-inch Studio Display Pro or Pro Display,

00:28:11   and then the Pro Display Max or something.

00:28:15   - Pro Display or XDR or whatever, yeah.

00:28:19   Something like that.

00:28:20   I think, yes, it's entirely possible that we will end,

00:28:23   we will go from a world where Apple has abandoned displays

00:28:26   to a world where Apple has three.

00:28:28   - A range of displays for everybody,

00:28:31   no matter what they wanna do.

00:28:32   - Well, no one else is making 'em, so why not Apple?

00:28:35   I mean, I bet they've done really good numbers

00:28:37   on Pro Display.

00:28:38   I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if inside of Apple

00:28:41   they were like, oh yeah, this was probably

00:28:42   a good business to get back into.

00:28:44   Again, it's like, I don't necessarily think

00:28:46   that they thought that being in the,

00:28:50   like, you know, making displays was like a thing

00:28:52   that they shouldn't do.

00:28:55   I think they just decided that they weren't really

00:28:57   gonna make a lot of computers

00:28:58   that were meant for displays anymore.

00:29:00   - Yeah.

00:29:01   - And so they just got out of that market,

00:29:02   but it ended up that people--

00:29:03   - It's just one of their misguided ways,

00:29:05   and given all the laptops they sell

00:29:07   and given their pro customers, it was a misguided decision.

00:29:10   And I can't tell how much of it was just, look,

00:29:12   we don't need to do this.

00:29:13   The market will handle it.

00:29:15   Or how much of it was them misreading the desire

00:29:17   to have an Apple display.

00:29:18   But either way, they completely misread the market

00:29:20   because the rest of the display market's

00:29:23   not interested in what Apple wants displays for.

00:29:26   They're just not.

00:29:29   There's kind of a race to the bottom where

00:29:30   its resolution doesn't matter,

00:29:32   and 4K in 32 inches is good enough,

00:29:36   and Apple doesn't think that's the case for its platform,

00:29:41   and nobody else stepped in to the breach there,

00:29:43   just that one LG monitor, one or two LG monitors.

00:29:47   So what a world.

00:29:49   - This episode is brought to you by Trade.

00:29:53   I love coffee, and I am a fancy coffee person.

00:29:56   I'm a fussy coffee person.

00:29:57   I like coffee from small roasteries.

00:30:01   I like coffee that has stories.

00:30:03   I like coffee that has tasting notes.

00:30:05   That's what I like and that's what trade gives you.

00:30:08   And if you are daunted by this fact,

00:30:10   let me tell you about why trade can help you understand

00:30:13   coffee a little bit better.

00:30:14   Because when you become a trade coffee customer,

00:30:16   you can enjoy knowing that you have the freshest

00:30:19   and best tasting coffee you've ever made at home.

00:30:21   And the coffee you'll be drinking from

00:30:23   will be from the best independent craft roasters

00:30:27   across the US, which also helps out a ton of really small businesses and people making

00:30:33   stuff happen, which I think is awesome.

00:30:35   This is cool, right?

00:30:36   Trade's coffee team, they taste test thousands of coffees to help keep 450 different kinds

00:30:43   live and ready to ship every single day.

00:30:45   So there's so much great variety.

00:30:47   So everyone is going to have that coffee, that one coffee that they just love and Trade's

00:30:51   going to help you find it.

00:30:53   Trade have this great quiz that you go through.

00:30:55   It's very simple.

00:30:56   don't need to know a bunch of terms, they're just asking you like "hey how do you want

00:30:59   to make this coffee at home? Do you like chocolatey flavours? Do you like fruity flavours?" and

00:31:03   they will help you refine what you're looking for. Trade is so incredibly confident that

00:31:08   they'll match you right first time that if they don't just give them your feedback and

00:31:13   an actual coffee expert will work with you directly to send a brand new bag for free.

00:31:20   Trade coffee sends you freshly roasted beans from so many of the best craft roasters, small

00:31:26   businesses who pay farmers fair prices to sustainably source the greatest beans from

00:31:31   around the world. It takes just a couple of questions to get your own personalised variety

00:31:36   of coffees delivered fresh to you as often as you like.

00:31:40   Right now Trade is offering new subscribers a total of $30 off your first order plus free

00:31:45   shipping. Just go to www.drinktrade.com/upgrade. That is more than 40 cups of coffee for free.

00:31:51   Get started by taking their quiz today at www.drinktrade.com/upgrade and let Trade find

00:31:56   you a coffee that you'll love.

00:31:58   One last time then it's www.drinktrade.com/upgrade and you will get $30 off.

00:32:03   Father's Day is coming up, a Trade subscription could be the perfect gift for the coffee lover

00:32:07   in your life.

00:32:08   Our thanks to Trade for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:32:11   Alright we've got a big topic here about Apple's headset plans.

00:32:19   So the information published two articles in the past week detailing a bunch of details.

00:32:26   Apparently they have had 10 sources from Apple give them a bunch of information about the

00:32:33   headset.

00:32:34   Now I want to go through a bunch of the stuff that's come out of these articles.

00:32:38   We can stop wherever we want to talk about it and then we can also have some questions

00:32:41   that I want to talk through with you at the end.

00:32:43   Does that sound fair?

00:32:44   There's a lot of details here.

00:32:46   So these articles detail some of the struggles that the team putting this project together

00:32:53   has had. There have been leadership issues, they have not been seen as a priority product

00:32:59   inside of Apple at different times, they have had issues with finding talent within Apple

00:33:04   to work on the project. Part of this is that they are situated in Sunnyvale, so apparently

00:33:09   this has reduced their visibility, so it's basically not in Apple Park, they're like

00:33:13   in their own little campus out in Sunnyvale, California.

00:33:16   This has reduced their visibility and importance

00:33:18   of being in Apple not being at Apple Park directly.

00:33:21   And it is also said that Tim Cook is apparently

00:33:24   not a champion of the product.

00:33:27   The report references, that kind of makes reference

00:33:29   to him not being as involved as Jobs was with the iPhone.

00:33:34   But I wanted to pose to you, doesn't that,

00:33:37   like I would expect that's pretty normal though.

00:33:39   - Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs.

00:33:41   Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs.

00:33:44   - And so I can't imagine there is any product

00:33:48   that he would have that level of involvement in.

00:33:51   And I also don't think that's a bad thing.

00:33:54   Like I think that's a good thing.

00:33:55   It's like, honestly, if I heard that he was really involved

00:33:59   in the design, I think I might raise an eyebrow

00:34:02   because it's not his thing.

00:34:04   Like, and that's what's made him so good at his job,

00:34:07   I think is knowing what he's good at

00:34:10   on what his limits are and letting other people

00:34:13   take care of those things, I don't know.

00:34:15   - Also, he's gone out of his way for the last five years

00:34:18   to champion AR and VR as an important future direction

00:34:21   in the industry.

00:34:22   So it's not like he's not,

00:34:25   at least publicly enthusiastic about it,

00:34:27   and they've spent a lot of money on it,

00:34:28   and it's a huge future direction for the company.

00:34:30   So weird thing for a CEO.

00:34:34   Yeah, this sounds like it's a little oversold here

00:34:38   because again, Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs,

00:34:40   And so Steve Jobs is deeply involved in creating the iPhone

00:34:45   as a guy with a lot of product taste.

00:34:47   That's not Tim Cook's role.

00:34:50   - No.

00:34:51   And so yeah, that stood out to me as like,

00:34:54   I don't know, a thing someone might have said,

00:34:58   but it has been reported as being what it isn't, right?

00:35:02   Like, yes, Tim Cook is not involved in the day-to-day

00:35:05   and like that's necessarily a bad thing.

00:35:08   And I'm not sure that it is.

00:35:10   I kind of see it as a neutral thing to be honest, right?

00:35:14   So previously we had heard a report,

00:35:18   this is from Bloomberg,

00:35:19   that Johnny Ive was concerned about VR

00:35:22   shutting people out of the world.

00:35:23   Do you remember that?

00:35:24   He was like, didn't like the idea

00:35:25   of people being in VR all the time.

00:35:27   - Yeah.

00:35:28   - This actually ended up leading to

00:35:31   Apple going down the path of adding cameras to the front

00:35:34   to allow for this to be a mixed reality device.

00:35:37   I think that that is a very good design decision.

00:35:39   ended up making.

00:35:41   - Yeah, this is something that I know we talked about

00:35:42   a while ago about the Oculus Quest,

00:35:45   but I've got an Oculus Quest 2,

00:35:47   and one of my favorite features of it,

00:35:49   and it was something that I think they added to it

00:35:51   after it launched, but it is,

00:35:53   it has outward facing cameras for, you know,

00:35:57   boundary marking reasons to,

00:35:59   so that you don't run into something

00:36:00   when you're playing a VR game, it marks the boundary,

00:36:03   and then it knows when you're too close to the boundary

00:36:05   and it lets you know.

00:36:06   but you can double tap on the side of it now,

00:36:10   and it just puts you in reality mode essentially.

00:36:12   And it's a grainy black and white reality mode, right?

00:36:16   But I can envision using really good cameras,

00:36:18   like what Apple has,

00:36:20   to make it a much better kind of depiction of reality.

00:36:23   And not only are there uses for that, right?

00:36:26   Because then you can have apps and games and whatever

00:36:29   that interact with the actual world around you,

00:36:32   even though you're wearing the headset,

00:36:33   instead of it just being completely artificial.

00:36:36   But it also means that yes,

00:36:37   if you break through a boundary or if somebody comes,

00:36:39   like, you know, imagine pausing,

00:36:42   you're playing a game or doing whatever in VR

00:36:44   and somebody comes into the room

00:36:47   and with face recognition,

00:36:49   the camera knows that somebody has come into the room

00:36:51   where you're playing on the VR headset

00:36:53   and pauses your app or game and breaks,

00:36:57   puts a little window in,

00:36:58   maybe doesn't take you entirely into the real world,

00:37:00   but puts a little window around the person

00:37:02   and lets you, you know, interact with them

00:37:05   and turns on the pass through microphone to your headphones

00:37:08   or whatever your setup is, right?

00:37:10   Like having used the Quest 2,

00:37:14   this is absolutely a good call.

00:37:17   Like I'm not as much of a fan of the way

00:37:21   that this has been portrayed as a sort of a,

00:37:24   oh, here the designers are getting all touchy feely

00:37:27   and being like, do we really wanna block people out

00:37:29   from the real world?

00:37:31   Aren't we doing a disservice to everyone by doing that?

00:37:34   I can roll my eyes at that a little bit,

00:37:37   but I think in terms of-

00:37:38   - I agree with that point, by the way.

00:37:40   - Well, I think if you're making a VR product,

00:37:45   like part of the idea here,

00:37:47   so there's a difference between saying like,

00:37:48   let me undercut the entire premise of this product,

00:37:51   versus saying, okay, first off,

00:37:53   this is a way to get to AR, which is more open.

00:37:56   And second, we need to be mindful of it,

00:37:58   but this is fundamentally a product

00:38:00   where you are putting things over your eyes,

00:38:03   and that's what this is.

00:38:04   So saying, you're basically saying,

00:38:07   should we make this product or not?

00:38:08   And if you've decided you're gonna make it,

00:38:10   then it's less helpful.

00:38:11   But what I like about it is the keeping you honest

00:38:14   and saying, well, wait a second,

00:38:15   isn't this product stronger if it is more capable

00:38:18   of being rooted in the real world?

00:38:20   And having experienced that with the Oculus Quest,

00:38:24   and honestly, it's sort of rudimentary on the Oculus Quest,

00:38:27   but even that rudimentary implementation makes me realize,

00:38:32   oh yeah, like one of the big problems with VR

00:38:34   is you put the headset on

00:38:35   and then you don't know what's happening around you.

00:38:38   And it's kind of disconcerting.

00:38:40   And so knowing that it's got your back basically,

00:38:45   or it's being your eyes and it can help you out

00:38:47   and it can switch contexts,

00:38:50   that's a good feature, right?

00:38:53   Like that makes it a better product.

00:38:55   Even if it's not true AR,

00:38:57   it makes it a much better product

00:38:58   for it to know about your surroundings

00:39:00   and be able to pass it through to you

00:39:02   inside the little goggles.

00:39:03   - I am a fan of VR for gaming

00:39:05   and I'm a fan of VR for experiences.

00:39:08   I don't think that's a product Apple should make.

00:39:10   Like they shouldn't make the next Oculus Quest

00:39:12   like just as like the way it was meant to be

00:39:14   or the Oculus Rift or whatever, right?

00:39:16   I don't think that's their,

00:39:18   honestly I don't think it's their wheelhouse

00:39:19   to make that product just explicitly for that.

00:39:23   Like my expectation is probably what we're seeing,

00:39:26   what we talk about in a minute,

00:39:27   the idea that this is also,

00:39:28   as well as a fun experience platform,

00:39:31   also like a thing that you wear as a computing platform.

00:39:34   And if that's the case,

00:39:35   and I'm meant to wear it for many hours at a time in theory,

00:39:38   and you know, or whatever,

00:39:40   then I don't want to be completely shut off

00:39:41   for the world for that time,

00:39:42   which is what I mean about like for Apple,

00:39:46   I do not think a pure VR product is the right move for them.

00:39:50   And I agree that they should not be making a product

00:39:53   that just shuts people out from the world, right?

00:39:55   Like I just don't think it's the right move.

00:39:57   And I'm happy to hear that they've ended up

00:39:58   going down this path.

00:39:59   And talking a little bit more about the,

00:40:02   well, the now MetaQuest,

00:40:05   Meta just put out a video,

00:40:07   I think Mark Zuckerberg posted it himself,

00:40:09   like kind of showing off some of the stuff

00:40:11   that they're working on for their next,

00:40:13   like their next version of this,

00:40:16   it's called Project Cambria,

00:40:17   and it's like a higher end product.

00:40:19   And this is completely what they're demoing

00:40:21   and talking about, like mixed reality

00:40:23   and the quality of that device for that.

00:40:26   So the truth is with these devices,

00:40:28   the way to look at them is as a continuum, right?

00:40:32   So it's just like early personal computers

00:40:34   and then early laptops and then, you know,

00:40:35   eventually smartphones.

00:40:37   This is, look, everybody knows that the mixed reality future

00:40:41   is what they're shooting for,

00:40:43   whether it works out or not, who knows,

00:40:45   but that's what they're shooting for.

00:40:47   But you gotta get there.

00:40:48   Like the technology is not there

00:40:50   for you to wear a pair of glasses

00:40:52   that look just like regular eyeglasses

00:40:54   and that nobody knows, and you've got a full, rich,

00:40:56   fully realized AR world around you.

00:40:59   Doesn't exist.

00:41:00   Will it exist in 10 years?

00:41:01   Yeah, maybe.

00:41:02   15 years, probably, but not right now.

00:41:05   So, but how do you get there?

00:41:07   You gotta build the interim steps.

00:41:08   You just have to do it.

00:41:09   And so VR is a start.

00:41:12   Mixed reality helps because it allows you to do AR,

00:41:16   but it's not really your eyes seeing it with an overlay.

00:41:20   It's your eyes inside a thing that covers your face,

00:41:24   but it allows you to go down that path.

00:41:27   And for all the reasons we just described,

00:41:29   like mixed reality, even in what are traditionally VR

00:41:33   kind of environments works pretty well.

00:41:36   The other thing I will say is,

00:41:38   I think the smartest thing anybody working on this project

00:41:41   at Apple could do is not think about games to what you said,

00:41:45   'cause here's the thing, the games are gonna happen,

00:41:48   but Apple has never succeeded, I would say never,

00:41:51   Well, yeah, probably, or rarely or ever,

00:41:56   succeeded in building something specifically for games.

00:42:01   Apple's success in games is always

00:42:04   because they build a really good platform

00:42:06   that people wanna use for games

00:42:08   and the people who understand games

00:42:10   figure out how to use it.

00:42:11   So if I was at Apple, I'd be like,

00:42:13   "Look, the games are gonna happen,

00:42:14   but we're not making a game machine," to your point.

00:42:17   That's not what we're doing here,

00:42:19   not only in price, but just like,

00:42:21   we need to not be thinking about games as an application.

00:42:25   It needs to be bigger and the games will happen, right?

00:42:28   The Beat Saber's will happen, but we need to think bigger.

00:42:32   And I think that's true because Apple has not,

00:42:36   you know, they just don't succeed

00:42:37   when they're focused on games.

00:42:38   They need to be focused on what they're good at

00:42:40   and the games will happen or they won't,

00:42:42   but I think they probably will

00:42:44   because it's actually a really great application for this.

00:42:46   - They will.

00:42:48   So let's talk about some of the technical considerations

00:42:50   that the information we're talking about,

00:42:52   some of the more technical stuff.

00:42:54   So at one point in the design process,

00:42:57   swappable batteries were being considered for this product

00:43:02   because the goal that Apple is trying to aim for

00:43:05   is to be able to allow users to use the headset

00:43:07   for up to eight hours a day if they wanted to.

00:43:10   Seems like a lot.

00:43:12   - Everybody who's ever worn an AR headset

00:43:14   looks at eight hours and thinks, nope, nope.

00:43:17   - I don't think I want that.

00:43:18   I mean, who knows what the future will tell me,

00:43:20   but I really don't think I want that.

00:43:22   This was scrapped as an idea.

00:43:24   Currently the battery life is said to be

00:43:27   for several hours, quite several hours

00:43:29   in line with similar products.

00:43:31   - Think about what Apple talks about

00:43:33   in terms of like AirPods and the Apple Watch

00:43:35   and some other products they've got

00:43:37   where it's sort of like a quick charge.

00:43:40   So use it for a little while.

00:43:42   'Cause I would say it's very much like AirPods,

00:43:44   which is you can listen for quite a while,

00:43:47   But at some point, if you wanna wear it all day,

00:43:49   you're gonna need to do a little recharge.

00:43:51   And we could do it pretty quick

00:43:52   and get you a lot more time.

00:43:54   But eight hours a day without a break,

00:43:58   first off, it's impossible, right?

00:44:00   Eight hours without a break is impossible.

00:44:02   You don't really need that.

00:44:04   I guess you could think about travel and things like that.

00:44:06   But ideally, in most cases, you would use it for a while,

00:44:11   maybe a few hours, and then you would charge it,

00:44:13   and then you would come back to it.

00:44:14   And that's a better use case.

00:44:16   So I'm glad they got away from that.

00:44:17   I think swappable batteries is not the end of the world.

00:44:20   It's not Apple's thing anymore,

00:44:22   but there's that idea of like, well, I absolutely need it.

00:44:24   So the hardcore users will buy a second battery

00:44:26   and swap it and it's like e-bikes

00:44:29   or something like that, right?

00:44:29   Whereas like, ah, but I want to go even further

00:44:32   than my e-bike will take me.

00:44:33   So I have a second battery.

00:44:35   And it's like, okay, but you know,

00:44:37   there are so many advantages to having it all be one piece

00:44:41   and doing it that way.

00:44:42   So I think that that's probably a good idea.

00:44:44   Plus, again, nobody wants to have a thing on their face

00:44:47   for eight hours straight.

00:44:49   - So we will talk about this a little bit more later on,

00:44:53   but about Jonny Ive's involvement in the product.

00:44:57   But there is apparently, as a suggestion from Jonny Ive,

00:45:01   that there is at least a version,

00:45:03   and this may be the shipping version,

00:45:05   again, a lot of this is unclear, right?

00:45:07   That there is a version of this product

00:45:10   with a battery that is tethered to the device

00:45:13   and worn by the user to remove weight and heat

00:45:16   from the headband.

00:45:17   - I get it, but that sounds like a prototype, right?

00:45:22   Like it's one of those things where like tethering,

00:45:24   okay, so I've used two VR setups.

00:45:28   I've used the PSVR, which is tethered,

00:45:30   and I've used the Quest, which is standalone.

00:45:34   And, you know, not having the Quest is not,

00:45:39   I mean, actually the Quest is in line with the PSVR,

00:45:42   But the idea that you could build something super light

00:45:45   is appealing, but every time you've got cords

00:45:48   running around, especially since you can't see

00:45:50   where they are because you've got a VR thing on your head,

00:45:54   it's not great, it's just not great.

00:45:56   - Yeah, well this is at least like the cord just goes

00:45:59   into a thing in your pocket, right?

00:46:00   Like you're not physically connected to something.

00:46:03   - You're attaching it to your iPhone essentially

00:46:05   or something iPhone like that lives in your pocket.

00:46:07   I get it. And look, making the thing on your face less obtrusive is a good direction to

00:46:17   go. But I think from an ideal product standpoint, having it all be in one piece is always going

00:46:22   to be preferred because it's less fiddly and, you know, there's no step two, all of that

00:46:26   sort of thing. It's, you know, having one piece. Like the Oculus Quest is, you know,

00:46:31   it's just a unit and it's got two controllers, but it's just like a thing and you plug it

00:46:35   into USB-C and then you unplug it and you play and it there's something to be said for that.

00:46:41   If the goal is to have people wear this for many hours at a time, which it seems like is probably

00:46:48   their goal, like they want to make this like a "hey you can work and play and chat and live with

00:46:53   this thing" make reducing the weight on your head is going to be good. I don't first off I don't

00:47:01   I don't think you can live with this thing on your head.

00:47:03   Work and play and chat maybe, but live?

00:47:06   Oh, don't do that.

00:47:07   First off, don't do that.

00:47:08   That's where I draw the line is with a big thing

00:47:11   that's completely enclosed.

00:47:12   I can't even imagine that.

00:47:14   But here's what I'll say.

00:47:15   I think the challenge is how much do you save

00:47:18   in terms of weight and obtrusiveness

00:47:20   by putting that thing in your pocket

00:47:22   versus all the stuff that has to be on your face

00:47:26   because of all the displays and cameras and all of that.

00:47:28   And I think the truth might be

00:47:30   that while you can save a little bit of weight,

00:47:33   first off, you might need a little counterweight

00:47:35   for all the stuff that's in front of your eyes, right?

00:47:38   And second, like if you pull all that stuff out

00:47:41   and then the thing is still kind of bulky and uncomfortable,

00:47:45   it doesn't matter that you pulled that stuff out.

00:47:48   So does it solve the problem

00:47:49   is the question I would ask there, right?

00:47:51   Is like, did pulling this stuff out really solve it?

00:47:54   Or is it still kind of just as uncomfortable it was before?

00:47:56   And it turns out that pulling this stuff out

00:47:58   and putting it in my pocket didn't help matters.

00:48:01   - So there were reports on the idea of tethering.

00:48:03   There were reports a while back

00:48:05   that Apple was considering having this headset

00:48:07   tethered to a base station to make it more powerful.

00:48:10   This plan was scrapped for the device

00:48:13   to be focused on being standalone,

00:48:15   apparently not even connected to an iPhone,

00:48:17   which was another suggestion, right?

00:48:19   - Yeah, there were some thoughts

00:48:20   that it might be a wireless,

00:48:21   it might not be physically tethered,

00:48:23   but it might be wirelessly tethered,

00:48:25   and they dumped,

00:48:26   I mean, we had some reports of this earlier that we're basically watching the product

00:48:30   evolve with these reports, right?

00:48:32   These are not things that Apple thought would be the final.

00:48:33   This is the step that Apple went through step by step to figure out what it was doing.

00:48:38   And you know, again, having gone from the, I know they're not great examples, but the

00:48:43   PSVR to the Quest 2, like there's a lot to be said for standalone, but including the

00:48:50   Fidli setup, not even while you're using it.

00:48:52   It's like, do I have the base station where, oh, you went too far from the base station.

00:48:55   you can't use it. Apparently there was a couple of options like mocked up and presented to

00:49:02   key Apple executives like Tim Cook who doesn't care about this product and Johnny Ive and

00:49:07   apparently they ended up leaning towards this idea of the there were like you know avatars

00:49:13   that could have been human looking basically like photo realistic or more cartoony and

00:49:19   ended up going with the less powerful option for comfort and you know moveability and stuff like

00:49:25   that. Apparently this was a design direction change from what was expected was the path Apple

00:49:33   going on which is one of the key reasons for multiple delays to the project because they are

00:49:38   balancing between performance, battery life and thermal issues. It gets too hot and that's the

00:49:44   thing for the standalone device that they have to put a lot more time into. The thing we always

00:49:49   talk about on upgrade is where does this where do these reports come from who who's giving this

00:49:55   information and why this quote here that i'm going to read to you i think explains a bit about where

00:50:00   this information has come from some of those people place the blame on iv who they say

00:50:06   fundamentally changed the purpose of the headset from a product that creatives and professionals

00:50:11   would use at a desk to a portable device for consumers those people argue that apple should

00:50:16   have first developed a product for professionals to encourage them to make content for the

00:50:21   headset before releasing one for consumers. Seems like, I would expect, some of the people

00:50:27   giving this information with a team that will work with some, is at least a member of the

00:50:31   team that was working on the tethered version of this product. Because they seem quite upset

00:50:37   about the fact that the Apple went in a different direction.

00:50:39   This product has been around for so long internally that you've got people who leave the team.

00:50:44   may still be on the team, but if they're not, then they have left the team and they are

00:50:49   unhappy with the direction, and they place the blame on Johnny Ive. I think this is fascinating

00:50:54   because who's to say who's right? Right? It's hard to say until—and you can't run the

00:51:01   simulation twice and see which one worked out the best. But what strikes me about this

00:51:06   is the people who wanted that professionals at a desk,

00:51:11   that feels very Microsoft to me, feels very HoloLens.

00:51:16   It's like, well, no, no, no, this is a business product.

00:51:18   It's a business product.

00:51:20   And what I've is arguing feels very Apple to me,

00:51:24   which is we make products for consumers,

00:51:27   not just high-end professionals.

00:51:31   We make it for a swath of people,

00:51:33   not just for the enterprise and, you know,

00:51:36   high-end CAD applications and things like that.

00:51:39   That's not what Apple does.

00:51:40   Apple succeeds sort of like with games, right?

00:51:43   Succeeds in other markets

00:51:44   because Apple creates a great product for consumers.

00:51:49   And that's Apple's magic.

00:51:51   And I can see Johnny Ive arguing that point.

00:51:53   I think there's a challenge because

00:51:55   you could argue that what he's really offer arguing,

00:52:00   you could argue that what he's really saying here is

00:52:03   you are making a developer product

00:52:06   and Apple shouldn't ever release a product

00:52:09   that's just for developers.

00:52:12   If we release a product,

00:52:13   it will be implied that it's for everybody.

00:52:15   And so it needs to be good enough for everybody.

00:52:17   And he's sort of arguing,

00:52:19   don't do version one of this product, do version two,

00:52:22   which would lead to it being delayed, right?

00:52:24   'Cause he's basically saying skip over version one.

00:52:27   We shouldn't make that.

00:52:29   And if that's the case, I mean, again,

00:52:31   I don't know who's right or wrong here,

00:52:32   but I understand that argument that let's make the product

00:52:36   that Apple would make here and not some sort of,

00:52:40   we've talked about it here and with the price,

00:52:42   it may be this product anyway,

00:52:43   but what you don't want is Apple to say,

00:52:46   hey, we're releasing that new category product

00:52:48   that you've all heard about.

00:52:49   We're finally gonna do it, but don't buy this one.

00:52:51   We'll see in a year.

00:52:53   We'll have one under Christmas trees in 2023,

00:52:57   but for right now, no, no, no, don't buy it, don't buy it.

00:52:59   Like Apple doesn't do that.

00:53:01   Apple just doesn't do that.

00:53:03   So I can see that argument.

00:53:05   - But also as well, like the way I look at it.

00:53:07   All right, so let's say we released a really powerful one

00:53:11   for developers to make experiences

00:53:13   and it looks really good.

00:53:14   How long is it gonna take to make that a standalone product?

00:53:19   Like what if you put that out there

00:53:22   and then it takes another five years to develop one

00:53:25   at the same like power level

00:53:27   that can be used about a base station?

00:53:29   Like I feel like you're setting yourself up

00:53:31   for failure by giving the most powerful version first and then needing to try and catch up

00:53:39   for a consumer product? Like this, it seems all wrong as a route to take.

00:53:43   I want to clarify something because somebody in the Discord just mentioned, "Shouldn't

00:53:46   you start with pros so you can charge a lot of money?" Well, here's the thing. Apple's

00:53:49   going to make an expensive product and people are going to buy it. The people who are going

00:53:52   to buy it are going to buy it. I'm thinking more in terms of the approach we take. Do

00:53:56   we take an approach if we're Apple and we're developing this product that says, "No, no,

00:54:00   is a limited product that's very high end?" Or do you say, "No, we're not good at that.

00:54:05   Let's make a really good product that will appeal to consumers, and the first version

00:54:09   of it is going to be expensive so most people won't buy it, but if they do buy it, they'll

00:54:14   have a great experience with it." And then we set about iterating and creating a lower

00:54:19   priced version and tweaking the features and getting it on the Apple machine that does

00:54:25   what it does. And so yeah, the first product is still going to be expensive, and people

00:54:32   who buy it are going to be people who've got the money to buy it. But I don't think you

00:54:36   look at Apple's strategy and say, "Well, Apple's big secret sauce is that they put out a high-end

00:54:41   enterprise product and then eventually make a version for regular people." That's just

00:54:44   not what they do. Apple's DNA is all about making a version for regular people, even

00:54:50   if it's so expensive that most regular people can't afford it. That's where they start.

00:54:54   Yeah, and I think that's probably the best place to start. We've mentioned Johnny Ive

00:54:59   a bunch of times. It is said that Johnny continues to consult on this project of Apple as well as

00:55:04   others, which I was pleased and surprised to hear. Like, they had always said they were doing it,

00:55:09   but I kind of figured that it wasn't true. But it seems like he is in fact still helping out

00:55:15   where needed. He's kind of like, break glass in case of Johnny emergency.

00:55:21   Yeah, interesting, right? And there's the question of like, what his role is, and it,

00:55:26   at least this report suggests that his role is kind of being the conscience of the product, right?

00:55:31   - Yep. - And being kind of prodding and

00:55:33   criticizing and saying like, what should this be? And that's a pretty good, I mean, that honestly,

00:55:39   that's a big part of design or any creative endeavor is having that kind of dialogue about--

00:55:45   - You need a challenge, you need someone who's gonna challenge you.

00:55:47   - Yeah.

00:55:48   - Exactly, exactly.

00:55:50   And for all of our criticisms about Johnny Ive

00:55:54   over the last decade and the feeling that he led Apple

00:55:59   down some paths that were maybe not so great,

00:56:04   I like the idea of somebody a little adversarial

00:56:08   who also is sort of representing the heart and soul

00:56:11   of Apple and its history to say,

00:56:14   is this actually the product you wanna make?

00:56:17   is this what Apple would do?

00:56:19   Is this what we're good at?

00:56:22   And I think I kinda like that.

00:56:25   - So luckily Apple hasn't lost its soul after all I guess.

00:56:29   - Oh, I mean, I hope so.

00:56:30   I haven't read that book yet.

00:56:32   Somebody also in our Discord for members pointed out

00:56:36   about like, we don't really know the whole,

00:56:39   like, I don't know who's right or who's wrong.

00:56:40   We don't really know what the market for this is.

00:56:43   And my only comment on that is, is it really,

00:56:48   there does come a point where you just gotta be

00:56:51   in the market and figure it out.

00:56:52   And I think that the Apple watch showed that,

00:56:54   like the Apple watch first version was like,

00:56:56   I don't know, it does all sorts of stuff.

00:56:57   Let's see what happens.

00:56:58   And you don't wanna throw spaghetti against the wall

00:57:00   if you're Apple, you know, you don't wanna be like,

00:57:02   oh, no, let's just, it's a random product.

00:57:04   We'll see what happens.

00:57:05   Samsung has actually succeeded at that quite well.

00:57:07   Apple doesn't play that game,

00:57:09   but there does come a time

00:57:10   where you have to ship something and learn.

00:57:12   - Oh, even the iPhone, right?

00:57:13   Because it was like, they put it out there,

00:57:15   oh, actually what people want is to be able

00:57:18   to develop apps for this platform.

00:57:19   - Yeah, and what our customers want is

00:57:21   for it to be more versatile,

00:57:22   because now that it's got the entire internet on it,

00:57:24   they wanna do things that we haven't anticipated

00:57:26   and don't fit in a web browser,

00:57:28   and we should probably do something with that, right?

00:57:30   And the Apple Watch progressed,

00:57:31   and I think that this is the same thing, which is,

00:57:35   I don't know if this thing is gonna succeed or not,

00:57:36   I don't know if this category is gonna succeed or not,

00:57:38   but if I'm Apple, at some point,

00:57:39   you do need to ship something,

00:57:40   I think maybe Johnny Ive is poking them to ship something that's a little, has a little

00:57:44   more broad appeal because then you're going to be able to see what happens and, and maybe

00:57:49   it'll be like the HomePod where they'll be like, okay, we learned a lot of things that

00:57:56   we thought were important that obviously weren't important because the price drove them away.

00:58:01   And I don't think we should do that anymore, but we could do a stripped down version of

00:58:06   it.

00:58:07   that's the lesson they learn,

00:58:08   or they will learn a whole bunch of lessons,

00:58:11   but developers will tell them things,

00:58:13   and the apps that work and the apps that don't work,

00:58:15   and they'll be surprised.

00:58:17   But there does come a time

00:58:18   where you do have to ship something.

00:58:19   And if they believe that this is a major product category

00:58:22   in the future, or might be,

00:58:24   the consequences of staying on the sideline forever

00:58:29   are enormous, right?

00:58:30   At some point you have to be out there

00:58:31   or you will miss it, right?

00:58:33   And I think that they have been lucky

00:58:35   in that they haven't missed it.

00:58:36   Like it's not like the iPhone of VR AR exists.

00:58:41   Remember Google Glass?

00:58:43   I mean, and everything that Facebook,

00:58:45   Oculus Meta is doing, like nobody's really gotten it.

00:58:50   And that's a good place for Apple to be

00:58:54   is somebody who can release a product in this category

00:58:57   that hasn't, so they're in it and nothing has taken off yet

00:59:02   and you can figure it out.

00:59:04   and that's where they need to be.

00:59:06   - So some more technical stuff.

00:59:10   At various points during the prototyping process,

00:59:12   the devices have been HTC Vive headsets running Windows,

00:59:16   but featuring software made by Apple.

00:59:18   That's just hilarious to me.

00:59:20   - Yeah.

00:59:20   - Like, not the Vive part,

00:59:21   'cause I think I've mentioned that for a long time.

00:59:23   I reckon that's why they did that partnership

00:59:25   with Valve and HTC a while ago,

00:59:28   where they had them on stage and blah,

00:59:29   'cause I think they wanted that gear.

00:59:32   But the idea of it running Windows,

00:59:33   It's just like, why is that even happening?

00:59:35   I just find that very funny.

00:59:37   - Some compatibility reason why it made no sense.

00:59:39   - Also prototypes had to be used with the help

00:59:43   of a small crane due to the weight of the headset.

00:59:47   Obviously this was all pretty early on.

00:59:49   It doesn't surprise me, right?

00:59:50   Like we've all seen images of like prototype iPhones

00:59:53   and iPads, like suitcases attached to a little screen.

00:59:56   - In fact, I was reminded with the crane

00:59:59   of the Mars helicopter.

01:00:02   So there's a drone helicopter on Mars,

01:00:05   and when they tested it, they had to put it in a chamber

01:00:10   where the atmosphere was as thin as it was on Mars

01:00:13   to see if it would fly,

01:00:14   but Mars has lighter gravity than the Earth.

01:00:17   So they actually had to rig up a crane kind of thing

01:00:20   to give it enough lift off of Earth's gravity

01:00:24   that it simulated Mars gravity.

01:00:27   I was thinking about that for this,

01:00:28   which is like, when I've got this giant thing on my head,

01:00:31   I'm like, oh, I'm moving around

01:00:33   and it only weighs three pounds,

01:00:34   but there's actually an enormous apparatus

01:00:36   coming out of the top of your head.

01:00:38   And it's like something professor X would wear,

01:00:41   for Cerebro, I'm making comic book references now.

01:00:45   Anyway, that's hilarious.

01:00:48   - The device includes 14 cameras used to track movement,

01:00:53   facial expressions and to display the outside world

01:00:57   to the wearer.

01:00:58   - So we've talked about Memoji being like,

01:01:01   obviously a proxy for VR avatars in the future.

01:01:05   - Yeah.

01:01:06   - I love this part.

01:01:08   Not because I love the idea of,

01:01:11   which we mentioned last week and is in this report too,

01:01:14   where there's like a screen on the outside.

01:01:16   (laughing)

01:01:18   It's like, I can see you through the screen on the outside.

01:01:22   - Let me mention that, 'cause this was,

01:01:24   I read this part and it kind of blew my brain a little bit.

01:01:27   There is a concept of a version of this device

01:01:30   with a screen on the outside of the device

01:01:33   so that it can display images of a user's eyes

01:01:36   and expressions to alleviate concerns

01:01:40   of being shot out from the world and those around you.

01:01:43   This feels very weird to me.

01:01:46   - Yeah, it feels weird and uncanny to me

01:01:48   and I'm not sure if it makes sense or not.

01:01:50   - I think it makes the product more of a like curiosity,

01:01:54   like a joke.

01:01:57   - And who wants to see that, right?

01:01:59   Like who wants to interact with somebody

01:02:00   who's wearing a headset with a weird screen on the front

01:02:04   that shows their eyes.

01:02:05   - With just a Memoji eyed portion.

01:02:08   'Cause it's not gonna be,

01:02:09   it's not gonna look like my eyes.

01:02:11   - Or it's an inside camera shot of some sweaty eyeballs

01:02:14   in a headset.

01:02:15   - All of that part is very weird to me.

01:02:18   And I mean, maybe they do it,

01:02:20   but just the sound of that does not sound very appley to me.

01:02:24   It doesn't seem very sleek, but I don't know.

01:02:27   - I don't know.

01:02:28   And maybe when you see it, you go,

01:02:30   - Oh. - Yes.

01:02:31   When I read this, I was like, okay,

01:02:33   this could be that thing that they do

01:02:36   that nobody else has or can do

01:02:39   that makes me go, they did it, they nailed it.

01:02:41   That's the thing we've been missing.

01:02:43   But I doubt it, but it could be, right?

01:02:46   - So what I find most fascinating about this though

01:02:48   is the idea that they are looking

01:02:51   at your facial expressions.

01:02:54   And I like that.

01:02:57   This is Memoji, right?

01:02:59   This is the same idea where your camera on your iPhone

01:03:03   can mirror your view.

01:03:06   It's a feature that doesn't make that much sense

01:03:09   on the iPhone, but it totally makes sense for this.

01:03:12   And I love this idea because having played games

01:03:16   on the Quest, you're a little avatar,

01:03:19   but you're kind of a little like expressionless avatar.

01:03:21   And the idea that when you smile or grimace or whatever

01:03:25   while wearing this thing,

01:03:26   your reflection in the virtual world matches

01:03:31   is actually smart and a lot of fun.

01:03:34   So I like that idea a lot.

01:03:36   And again, this goes back to doing a better job

01:03:40   than current devices do in sort of synthesizing

01:03:43   the real world and bringing it inside the virtual world.

01:03:47   It's a good idea.

01:03:48   - I wanna, and then additionally, the information reported

01:03:52   and then Mark Gurman reported as well

01:03:54   about Apple performing demos for board members of the product.

01:03:57   The information's report is earlier on, but I just want to read this section because it

01:04:03   goes to some way of kind of I think explaining a little bit about what they kind of imagine

01:04:08   this product might be able to do for you.

01:04:10   Former Vice President Al Gore, then Disney CEO Bob Iger, this was a while ago, and other

01:04:16   Apple board members walked from room to room trying out the prototype, augmented and virtual

01:04:20   reality devices and software.

01:04:22   of the gadgets made a tiny digital rhinoceros appear on a table in the room. The creature

01:04:27   then grew into a life-size version of itself, according to two people familiar with the

01:04:31   meeting. In the same demo, the drab surroundings of the room transformed into a lush forest

01:04:37   showing how users could seamlessly transition from AR, in which they could still view the

01:04:42   physical world around them, to the more immersive experience of VR, a combination known as mixed

01:04:48   reality.

01:04:49   So, I mean, there's a part of this post this and then Mark Gorman's report of who in those

01:04:54   meetings is giving this information away.

01:04:58   Right?

01:04:59   Like, that has got to be a very tight group of people involved in this.

01:05:04   Whoever set it up, who was part of the team, who then left the team, who was there to run

01:05:09   the demos for the board, probably, I guess.

01:05:13   But then there was another report from Mark Gorman after these information reports, I

01:05:16   I think in the middle of them,

01:05:18   saying that Apple has been conducting demos

01:05:21   of in the past week of the current product

01:05:23   as it is right now,

01:05:25   quote, "Indicating that development

01:05:26   has reached an advanced stage."

01:05:29   Apple have also ramped up development of ROS,

01:05:33   which is Reality OS is the name.

01:05:35   I don't know if that's the actual name

01:05:37   or if it's the name that people were thinking is now.

01:05:40   Quote, "Suggesting that the product's debut

01:05:43   could come within the next several months."

01:05:46   That's funny to me, the next several months,

01:05:48   that doesn't really mean anything.

01:05:50   Still looking at a cost according to all of this stuff,

01:05:54   but between two to $3,000.

01:05:56   So this is where we are.

01:05:58   - Yeah, super expensive, that hasn't changed.

01:06:02   - I mean, and it sounds like it's really gonna be,

01:06:04   depending on everything they're packing into this thing.

01:06:06   - And Mark Gurman feels really confident

01:06:09   that this is not a WWDC product,

01:06:11   that he's reported that they were going to make it that

01:06:13   and it's not.

01:06:14   which means I think you're right.

01:06:16   I think that there will be another event

01:06:18   and it might be the iPhone event

01:06:20   because that's what they did with the Apple Watch.

01:06:22   But there will be another event

01:06:23   in the next several months, I guess,

01:06:25   that is going to be introducing this product.

01:06:29   And then I still think the most likely scenario

01:06:31   is they're gonna introduce this product

01:06:33   and say it will be shipping early next year.

01:06:35   That's my guess.

01:06:36   I would, if I had to bet right now,

01:06:39   and I don't fortunately,

01:06:40   I would say it's gonna come during the iPhone event

01:06:44   and it's not gonna ship until sometime early next year.

01:06:49   - Yeah, I think you're completely right.

01:06:52   I think, I mean, this is what I've thought

01:06:54   they would do the whole time, right?

01:06:55   Just like the Apple Watch announcement in fall,

01:06:58   shipping in spring.

01:07:00   And in that time period, get developers to come out

01:07:03   to do developer center in Apple Park,

01:07:05   you're gonna try out some stuff with us.

01:07:07   They're just gonna do,

01:07:08   they're gonna play the hits with the Apple Watch.

01:07:10   That's just the way this product meant sense to me.

01:07:12   I think that makes sense.

01:07:14   And it will give developers an opportunity.

01:07:17   I do believe there will be a developer story

01:07:19   where there'll be a virtual version of it,

01:07:21   whether it's a, you know,

01:07:23   maybe more than a cardboard box

01:07:25   that you put an iPhone into, but maybe-

01:07:27   - It's a HTC Vive running Windows, running Apple software.

01:07:30   - I mean- - Maybe.

01:07:32   - That was probably a while ago,

01:07:34   but I really do think that it's possible

01:07:36   that they're gonna have a developer kit

01:07:38   that involves buying a third party headset

01:07:40   and attaching it to a Mac, right?

01:07:42   and saying, this is how you write your apps for this,

01:07:45   James Thompson, how you write your virtual calculator,

01:07:49   your dice world, whatever it is, it will be,

01:07:53   you'll have to do this this way

01:07:54   and then they'll ship it later, later,

01:07:58   but they'll be out there with it

01:07:59   'cause they get the chance to do that and build buzz for it.

01:08:02   And I'm sure they will.

01:08:04   - Man, I'm getting pretty intrigued.

01:08:07   I'm still not sure what I think about this,

01:08:10   but the more and more information we get about it,

01:08:13   the more I'm like, okay, show me what you've got.

01:08:17   Like I'll remain open-minded.

01:08:18   You show me what you've been working on.

01:08:20   But I don't know.

01:08:22   - Yeah, it is, if you take the games out of the equation,

01:08:26   'cause right now games really are the best thing.

01:08:28   I start to think about other things like, okay,

01:08:30   communication and you know, like how Oculus or Meta

01:08:35   has that like virtual workspace where you can be in there

01:08:39   and you're in a workspace.

01:08:40   And I'm sure there'll be things about like visualization

01:08:42   of 3D and other things like that.

01:08:44   But I keep thinking about communication

01:08:46   and I keep thinking, well, it won't be nice

01:08:48   to do FaceTime with this, except it won't be FaceTime.

01:08:51   It will be virtual FaceTime.

01:08:53   It will be fake FaceTime, right?

01:08:55   - Eye time.

01:08:55   - So it'll be, it'll be an audio call

01:08:59   with a little bobblehead Memoji.

01:09:02   And is that good?

01:09:04   Maybe.

01:09:05   What are the other apps for this?

01:09:07   like saying you can be in your numbers spreadsheet,

01:09:11   not that exciting, right?

01:09:12   So what is the application if this is not,

01:09:15   you know, is there VR video editing?

01:09:18   Is there, I don't know, right?

01:09:21   That is, for me, that is the big challenge is,

01:09:24   everybody wants to make VR or AR

01:09:28   that goes beyond just a game headset a thing.

01:09:33   But thus far, it hasn't really happened.

01:09:35   I will say, and this is something

01:09:37   that I think you mentioned before again,

01:09:38   hashtag MykeWasRight, I'll just say it again.

01:09:42   Fitness, like fitness is gonna be real.

01:09:46   And if you're like, wait a second, who wants to exercise?

01:09:49   Like there are multiple wildly successful apps

01:09:53   for the quest that are fitness.

01:09:56   - There's this one, I can never remember the name of it

01:09:58   'cause the name doesn't make any sense.

01:10:00   What is it called?

01:10:02   It's like-- - Supernatural.

01:10:04   - Supernatural, that's it.

01:10:05   I can never remember the name of it

01:10:06   because it doesn't register to me as a fitness experience.

01:10:10   - It's a huge hit.

01:10:11   - Yep.

01:10:12   - It is like, imagine Peloton, except it's VR.

01:10:17   Like it is a fitness training app.

01:10:20   It's a subscription.

01:10:22   I have heard word of mouth where people are like,

01:10:28   oh, have you tried Supernatural yet?

01:10:29   Like from lots of people,

01:10:31   my wife who is not that interested in the Oculus Quest

01:10:34   is like, yeah, I've been thinking about

01:10:35   doing that Supernatural thing.

01:10:36   I said, well, you could start with Beat Saber

01:10:38   'cause Beat Saber is actually a pretty good workout too.

01:10:40   But Supernatural is made to be a workout tool.

01:10:42   And I just, I immediately think, oh yeah,

01:10:45   like Apple Fitness and yes, will your headset get sweaty?

01:10:49   Yeah, it will.

01:10:50   But you know what?

01:10:51   I think the signal of the fact that people are like super

01:10:55   into Supernatural and getting Oculus Quest

01:10:59   in order to do those training programs

01:11:01   suggest to me that there's something there.

01:11:03   So we'll throw that on the list of things

01:11:04   that this headset might be interesting.

01:11:09   But like, I still, we need to pile up more examples of this.

01:11:13   And again, I'll go back to what I said before,

01:11:14   which is you kind of have to try to find out.

01:11:17   Apple will try and it will learn,

01:11:19   because I don't think that the exercise training

01:11:23   would have been a thing I would have expected

01:11:25   out of the Oculus Quest.

01:11:26   And yet it turns out that people love

01:11:30   the Supernatural product and they love Beat Saber,

01:11:32   and they talk about getting a great workout.

01:11:34   And it's like, oh, it turns out exercising in VR is successful.

01:11:38   And you could imagine other things.

01:11:42   So I do a stationary bike sometimes

01:11:44   when I'm not outside running.

01:11:45   And I think, well, you put that on while you do the stationary

01:11:48   bike with Apple Fitness, and now you can have a virtual bike

01:11:50   ride.

01:11:51   And there's so many different things you could do.

01:11:53   I can see them going down that path.

01:11:56   Two things.

01:11:56   One, as Zach points out in the Discord,

01:11:59   and just to alleviate the follow up,

01:12:02   Meta is trying to buy Supernatural.

01:12:05   I actually don't think this is a concern.

01:12:07   I actually do imagine Meta would make the best products

01:12:11   available for Apple's platform if they got big enough.

01:12:13   I think they've made these mistakes in the past

01:12:16   and I don't think that they would be so silly

01:12:19   as to not do that.

01:12:20   - We should say by trying, they are in agreement to do it,

01:12:25   but it needs to be approved.

01:12:28   - They need approvals 'cause Facebook now is not allowed

01:12:30   to basically acquire any companies anymore.

01:12:32   So like-

01:12:33   - The biggest sign that it is a successful thing

01:12:37   on their platform is that they just want to eat it.

01:12:40   - Yeah, 'cause they already bought the development company

01:12:42   behind Beat Saber.

01:12:44   - Yeah, it's a killer app.

01:12:45   And Facebook knows, Meta knows,

01:12:48   that if it's a killer app for your platform,

01:12:50   what do you do?

01:12:50   You buy it, you just take it and put it in your platform

01:12:53   and say, we own this, this belongs to us.

01:12:55   That said, you know, Apple Fitness, they can,

01:12:58   I'm sure that they could spin something up

01:13:00   to do this with Apple Fitness.

01:13:01   That would be a good competitor to it.

01:13:04   - But it also, it doesn't matter

01:13:06   because if Supernatural is a big success and it's on Quest,

01:13:11   someone will just make it, right?

01:13:14   They'll just make it.

01:13:15   Same as Beat Save, we spoke about it before.

01:13:17   Even if I believe that Meta would make these products

01:13:20   available for other platforms eventually,

01:13:22   but even if they don't, it doesn't matter

01:13:24   because someone will make something just like it, right?

01:13:28   There are already multiple games made by multiple companies

01:13:31   that are Beat Saber like on Quest, right?

01:13:34   Like someone else will just make a version,

01:13:36   like even if Apple didn't.

01:13:38   The other thing I was gonna mention is for me,

01:13:40   I think they need to achieve a difficult task,

01:13:44   which is the keynote announcing this needs to be,

01:13:48   in my opinion, iPhone introduction level,

01:13:52   where they can't just Apple Watch this,

01:13:55   where I think a lot of the Apple Watch keynote was like,

01:13:58   A) it can do everything and B) we hope everyone does everything for it.

01:14:03   Where I think the difference with the iPhone keynote was we have done a bunch of things,

01:14:07   we are going to show you what this can do and then the thing that's different is then

01:14:12   also having the bit where they show you what other people are doing.

01:14:15   But I think Apple needs to come to the table with this product and show me why I need it

01:14:21   and it's the work that they have done.

01:14:23   And I think Apple was done with the Apple Watch subsequently a way better job of it.

01:14:28   way more first party stuff that actually fills out the whole story of the product.

01:14:32   But the initial announcement didn't do that. It was very much like all this

01:14:40   stuff that it can do when we're working with our partners and you can unlock hotel rooms

01:14:43   and like you know and it was like this thing can do everything but the asterisk none of

01:14:48   it well and when they actually worked out what it could do vastly better. Same with

01:14:55   the Apple TV, right?

01:14:56   Like it can do all this stuff, but most of this stuff,

01:15:00   it doesn't do well because the product hasn't been designed

01:15:02   well for that.

01:15:03   The remote sucks.

01:15:04   It's not a good game controller.

01:15:05   It's not good for browsing anything except video.

01:15:09   - Let me throw in a few other stray thoughts I have

01:15:12   about what Apple could do here.

01:15:14   Because like I said, I am struggling a little bit

01:15:16   with what other than games do you do with this?

01:15:18   And fitness is one of them.

01:15:19   I would say entertainment, Apple is good at entertainment.

01:15:25   So what does that mean?

01:15:26   Well, I think music experiences, right?

01:15:31   Virtual concerts with panning, spatial audio,

01:15:35   panning audio where you're in a virtual concert space

01:15:38   or you're in an actual concert space,

01:15:40   but you're there virtually.

01:15:41   I think virtual concerts or this new Apple Music

01:15:46   live concert thing that you may have gotten a notification

01:15:49   for in the music app.

01:15:51   Like imagine a VR application of that

01:15:53   where you can actually be there and play it back.

01:15:55   - They bought that company.

01:15:56   Do you remember, NextVR?

01:15:57   That's what that company did.

01:15:59   Apple bought that company.

01:16:01   - I'll also say that I know that they're not

01:16:04   like super popular, but 3D movies,

01:16:09   there are lots of them.

01:16:11   So I think that's a thing that they will do

01:16:15   is they will let you watch 3D movies.

01:16:18   I wonder if they're secretly making 3D versions

01:16:23   of their Apple TV shows.

01:16:26   - They could at least make experiences.

01:16:29   Like James said this in the chat,

01:16:31   but like explore the Ted Lasso training room thing.

01:16:35   - Right, exactly.

01:16:37   Everything but the smell.

01:16:39   Yeah, but you could also imagine that they,

01:16:41   I've done that, I've watched a couple of 3D movies

01:16:43   on the Quest and it's okay, but the resolution is low.

01:16:46   But if you've got a better resolution

01:16:48   and you've got the spatial audio and all that.

01:16:49   Like it could be really,

01:16:51   and actually sitting in a virtual movie theater,

01:16:53   it's actually kind of fun.

01:16:54   Then you bring in SharePlay,

01:16:55   and now your friends are also in the virtual movie theater

01:16:58   with you watching the movie.

01:17:00   It gets interesting.

01:17:01   It's not probably the killer app,

01:17:04   but it's something that needs to be there.

01:17:07   I wonder if they are gonna be extensions to Game Center.

01:17:11   And this is, I know I said no games,

01:17:13   but I wonder if there are scenarios where existing games

01:17:18   that are not like immersive VR games,

01:17:20   but are like other kinds of games that you play with people

01:17:25   that you could play in a virtual world.

01:17:28   And I'm not saying like they're gonna bring,

01:17:29   finally the chess app has its day, finally, finally.

01:17:33   But you know, like I had a great experience

01:17:35   playing VR poker, right, on the Quest 2.

01:17:38   And that's not exactly,

01:17:40   poker is not a super immersive game.

01:17:42   It is a board game essentially.

01:17:45   It's a card game, but yeah,

01:17:46   There's the table, but with other people and spatial audio

01:17:51   and their emojis and all that,

01:17:55   and it suddenly becomes really interesting.

01:17:57   So, and I do think, yes, for business applications,

01:18:00   maybe it's some similar things.

01:18:01   I also wonder, I'll just throw this out here

01:18:04   'cause the thought occurred to me, virtual iPad or iPhone,

01:18:08   where you're literally, you can have,

01:18:09   maybe it's your iPhone, but it's like floating in the air

01:18:12   and you can actually like just reach out with your hand

01:18:14   and touch apps and scroll and stuff.

01:18:16   - Oh, what if. - You should be able

01:18:17   to do that, right?

01:18:18   - What if you could hold your phone and look at it,

01:18:22   but it does stuff 'cause you can see it, right?

01:18:25   Like AR comes out of the phone, say.

01:18:29   You know what I mean?

01:18:30   Like you look at it, you look,

01:18:31   like you tap the weather app and the weather app

01:18:33   pops out of the phone and you see it in front of you.

01:18:35   Like you could build like a communication

01:18:38   between the devices.

01:18:39   - Oh yeah, I was actually thinking that you've got

01:18:42   your virtual iPhone in the virtual world

01:18:43   and you tap on an app and you can bring that app out

01:18:47   and just float it around somewhere if you want.

01:18:49   There's lots of interesting things,

01:18:51   but that's the question is what did they choose to do?

01:18:53   What works well and what do people want to see?

01:18:56   And then in the end, the question will also be

01:18:58   who is gonna buy this thing?

01:18:59   And the first one, if it's two or $3,000,

01:19:01   the answer is not a lot of people are gonna buy it,

01:19:03   but I think that the feeling there will be

01:19:06   if they do it right and there's a buzz about it,

01:19:08   some people will buy it.

01:19:10   And then also they will be priming the pump

01:19:13   for whatever comes next.

01:19:15   - I was having a conversation with a friend of the show,

01:19:18   underscore Widgetsmith recently,

01:19:20   and we were talking about that exact idea,

01:19:23   like of widgets and how that could be a thing.

01:19:26   Like imagine if you could take your Widgetsmith widget

01:19:30   and actually pin it to the wall in space, right?

01:19:33   And you could turn around and look at it

01:19:35   and you'd look away and it's like physically on that wall

01:19:40   all the time, if that makes sense, right?

01:19:42   I don't know, this is a hard concept to explain.

01:19:44   I have just now realized how terrible it's going to be

01:19:47   over the next few years for us to try

01:19:49   and explain this stuff on the show.

01:19:51   I've just now realized that.

01:19:52   How horrible it will be to try and explain

01:19:55   mixed reality concepts in pure audio form.

01:19:59   So we have that to look forward to.

01:20:00   - And that's why I'm happy to announce today

01:20:02   that we're going to be inaugurating Upgrade VR,

01:20:06   a podcast experience that happens inside virtual reality.

01:20:09   - Hey, don't knock it, Jason Snow.

01:20:10   We might actually do it, you know what I mean?

01:20:12   - Maybe the future, maybe that's the killer app, Myke.

01:20:14   Maybe podcasting is the killer app of VR.

01:20:17   We did have a moment on another podcast I do

01:20:20   where we speculated, do people picture us

01:20:23   while they're listening to the podcast?

01:20:25   Are they picturing like two guys

01:20:27   sitting with microphones chatting or not?

01:20:29   And I thought, well, VR is the answer to that.

01:20:31   - But I don't know if this is because I know

01:20:33   what my friends' studios look like, right?

01:20:38   - Yeah.

01:20:38   - So when I listen to you on a podcast,

01:20:40   I very frequently imagine you sitting in your studio.

01:20:45   - Yeah, sure.

01:20:46   - Talking into the microphone.

01:20:47   - Yeah, I've never been to Mega Studio, so I don't.

01:20:50   I don't. - You've seen pictures of you.

01:20:51   - I mean, but I can picture you.

01:20:52   There's a beard, there's a microphone, there's glasses.

01:20:54   You know, I got it.

01:20:56   But what I'm saying is, yeah, maybe that is,

01:20:58   maybe we have-- - That'd be fun.

01:21:00   - I'm joking about it, but the truth is--

01:21:01   - I'm not joking.

01:21:02   I think that would be really fun.

01:21:03   - Would it be shocking if the Discord for members

01:21:08   ends up being like a little concert hall

01:21:12   where our Memojis are bopping around

01:21:13   while we're talking. - It'd be kinda great, man.

01:21:15   I'm not, no joke, that'd be really fun.

01:21:17   Like every show is a live show.

01:21:19   - Every show is a live show?

01:21:20   All right, it's gonna, there we go.

01:21:22   That's it, we're done here.

01:21:24   - Thanks, Apple. - Again,

01:21:25   I'd like to formally announce Upgrade VR, which (laughs)

01:21:28   - May or may not be happening. - We're gonna be coming,

01:21:30   it may be, we may have to announce it in several months.

01:21:34   What is that?

01:21:35   About, approximately several months from now.

01:21:37   - If the tolls existed, I would do it for sure.

01:21:40   - It's intriguing.

01:21:43   That's another way of presenting it

01:21:44   for people who wanna have a different experience.

01:21:45   I think that's what everybody's gonna have

01:21:47   to experiment with and half of,

01:21:49   well, okay, 90% of what gets experimented with

01:21:51   will prove to have been a failure,

01:21:53   but you hit on the good stuff

01:21:55   and that's why we're all here

01:21:57   is 'cause the good stuff changes everything.

01:22:00   - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Ladder.

01:22:04   Every now and then you hear about

01:22:05   financial administration involved when a loved one passes, including who in the family inherits

01:22:10   what.

01:22:11   On that note, it makes sense why people get life insurance, especially term coverage,

01:22:16   which is surprisingly affordable.

01:22:18   Why not pay a bit each month to protect your loved ones?

01:22:21   If you're asking yourself this question, choose Ladder.

01:22:24   Ladder is 100% digital, no doctors, no needles, no paperwork, when you apply for $3 million

01:22:30   in coverage or less.

01:22:32   Just answer a few questions about your health in an application.

01:22:35   You just need a few minutes and a phone or a laptop to apply.

01:22:39   And Ladder's smart algorithms work in real time so you'll find out instantly if you're

01:22:44   approved.

01:22:45   There's no hidden fees.

01:22:46   You can cancel anytime and get a full refund if you change your mind in the first 30 days.

01:22:51   Ladder policies are issued by insurers with long proven histories of paying claims.

01:22:56   They're rated A and A+ by AM Best.

01:23:00   and customers rate them 4.8 out of 5 stars on Trustpilot and they made Forbes best life

01:23:05   insurance list of 2021.

01:23:08   Since life insurance costs more as you age, now's the time to cross it off your list.

01:23:12   So go to the ladderlife.com/upgrade today and see if you're instantly approved.

01:23:18   That's ladderlife.com/upgrade.

01:23:22   Go there right now ladderlife.com/upgrade.

01:23:25   I thank the ladder for their support of this show and all of Relay FM.

01:23:30   some #AskUpgrade questions for you Jason to finish out today's episode. First comes from

01:23:35   Break who asks, "Now Apple have introduced the Max and Ultra monikers to indicate better

01:23:42   than the Pro in terms of performance. Do you think that the Mac Pro or even the MacBook

01:23:47   Pro could be due for a rebrand? For example, Mac Ultra to indicate the highest level of

01:23:54   performance."

01:23:55   I always like thinking about these questions, these marketing questions.

01:23:59   My gut feeling is no, because there's a lot of complexity here already.

01:24:04   And I don't think Apple really wants to have a Mac Pro and a Mac Max.

01:24:08   Oh, God, don't do that.

01:24:10   And a Mac Ultra.

01:24:11   I think they could do it, but I feel like it's better.

01:24:14   I guess the question would be there is no Mac Pro anymore.

01:24:18   It becomes the Mac Ultra.

01:24:19   Yeah, I don't know.

01:24:21   I think it's fine.

01:24:23   I think it's anything is possible, but I feel like there's no need to add another layer

01:24:27   here.

01:24:28   Yeah, I would.

01:24:29   I mean, I would be intrigued, you know, it's like what makes it more than pro and then

01:24:34   what makes studio studio and like where does studio sit studio more than pro, but then

01:24:39   like it's also less than pro depending on the type of pro it's funny and mini where's

01:24:44   mini come into all of this.

01:24:45   I don't know.

01:24:46   It's a small.

01:24:48   Richard asks, do you think Apple eventually will eventually release their A series?

01:24:53   chips on a not one year cycle to put them in lockstep with the subsequent M

01:24:58   series development. So I'll let me flesh this out a little bit more. The A series

01:25:03   chips which goes in the iPhones, the iPads etc they have in the past been

01:25:08   refreshed every year. Even though apparently the rumors are that we can

01:25:12   split at this time there would still be a new one for the pros it would still be

01:25:15   every year. The M series chips look like they're going to be 18 months to two

01:25:20   years maybe. So Richard wants to know could you could we imagine a time or do

01:25:25   we think it would happen where the A-series chips would also go out of the

01:25:30   yearly timeframe for refreshment? I think no because I think that the A-series

01:25:38   chips on the one-year cycle are an important differentiator for Apple about

01:25:45   new iPhones. Like I think Apple still likes the idea that they're pushing, they

01:25:50   They want a new iPhone model every year.

01:25:52   And while you could do a new iPhone model

01:25:54   without upgrading the processor

01:25:56   by upgrading the other stuff around it,

01:25:58   I think so much of what Apple does is enabled

01:26:00   by the changes that they make on the processor,

01:26:03   that they would really be hesitant

01:26:05   to pull that back to a two-year cycle.

01:26:08   And it's a very competitive market.

01:26:10   And although Apple is out ahead of it,

01:26:12   I think that they would be reluctant to do that.

01:26:14   So, you know, I never say never.

01:26:18   They certainly could choose to do it if they wanted to,

01:26:20   if they felt that they didn't need to differentiate

01:26:22   on chip every year because people don't really care,

01:26:24   but it is a useful thing.

01:26:26   And remember, when Apple does a new chip,

01:26:28   they're not just saying it's faster.

01:26:30   It's not like in the days of computer chips,

01:26:33   where it was like, well, more megahertz this time.

01:26:35   A lot of times what Apple is doing when they do a new chip

01:26:39   is it's a different machine learning set of cores.

01:26:44   There are more of them or they're different

01:26:47   or their image signal processor has changed,

01:26:50   or there's some other thing that gets enabled,

01:26:52   a feature that gets enabled on the new iPhone

01:26:55   because of a change that they made specifically on the chip.

01:26:59   And that's why I feel like they will keep marching it

01:27:03   in lockstep with the iPhone as much as they can.

01:27:07   - That last part that you said

01:27:08   kind of changed my thinking a little bit,

01:27:09   'cause I was gonna suggest that at a certain point

01:27:12   it's diminishing returns with how much they can eke out,

01:27:15   like year over year, right?

01:27:17   But you make a good point that like,

01:27:19   it doesn't have to be the core counts changed

01:27:21   or the chip is now faster.

01:27:23   It could be something as simple as we've tweaked

01:27:26   this part of the chip, which means really it's a new chip.

01:27:29   - Or the core design, right?

01:27:30   Like you could literally have the same cores as last year,

01:27:33   'cause this year we didn't change the CPU cores,

01:27:36   but we changed this other thing

01:27:38   and that enables this new feature

01:27:41   and that's why this is the A whatever it is.

01:27:44   So, you know, again, like if it doesn't serve them,

01:27:47   they will stop.

01:27:49   If it doesn't serve them, they will stop.

01:27:50   But I think the fear would be that

01:27:53   not having the new chip,

01:27:57   like having a new chip is a,

01:27:59   it distances the new product from the previous products

01:28:02   and that's helpful.

01:28:03   But I think the other truth of it is, yeah,

01:28:06   that they do the chip changes to enable new features

01:28:09   that they use to sell their iPhones.

01:28:11   And so it would be, how do you differentiate an iPhone

01:28:15   from the previous generation iPhone

01:28:18   when the chip didn't change?

01:28:19   Can you, you could upgrade the camera,

01:28:21   but do you need to change the image signal processor

01:28:24   to handle the new camera?

01:28:25   Or can the old chip handle it?

01:28:28   Like they, not saying they couldn't do it,

01:28:29   but I think that they get a lot of benefit out of doing it.

01:28:32   And I will also say,

01:28:35   I'm sure that they are coming up with ways

01:28:38   to figure out the sync between the A series

01:28:40   in the M series chips and that we may see that flow

01:28:45   be a little bit different than M every two years

01:28:48   and A every year.

01:28:50   It may be that the M is on a different cycle.

01:28:54   It may be that the M gets some things in front of the A

01:28:57   and other things before the A or before and after,

01:29:00   depending on the sync.

01:29:03   But I don't think Apple's gonna change

01:29:04   their iPhone strategy just because of the sync up

01:29:07   with the M series, because in the end,

01:29:10   That would be the tail wagging the dog,

01:29:12   that tail's on the end, so that makes sense.

01:29:14   Because the iPhone is the most important product

01:29:16   and I think it all comes back to does this serve the iPhone

01:29:19   to have a new A series every year,

01:29:20   and I think it does for now,

01:29:22   so I think they'll keep doing it.

01:29:23   - And Matt asks, "You get exactly one third party iOS app

01:29:28   to use and everything else on your phone

01:29:30   has to be Apple's apps or a web browser.

01:29:33   What third party app do you keep?"

01:29:36   - I wanna just scream into the void here.

01:29:39   (laughs)

01:29:41   And I'm curious what you think about this.

01:29:43   My answer I decided was sort of a philosophical answer,

01:29:47   which is what's the thing I care about the most

01:29:50   on my iPhone that, or iPad, I suppose this is iOS here,

01:29:55   but let's say iPhone, everything else on your phone.

01:29:59   What's the one thing I care about the most on the iPhone

01:30:03   that has the worst web version, right?

01:30:09   - Or it's like, doesn't have an Apple component

01:30:14   or the Apple component's so terrible.

01:30:16   - Right, right.

01:30:18   So this is, so for example, I'm not gonna say Overcast

01:30:21   because there's a podcast app.

01:30:23   - Yep.

01:30:24   - Even though I love Overcast and it's in my dock,

01:30:27   I don't think I wanna spend my precious single app on that.

01:30:31   - And the podcast app is getting better.

01:30:33   Like it's always getting better.

01:30:35   Like a lot of the features that we used to wish

01:30:37   they would add, they have them now, so.

01:30:40   - Yeah, so I don't know because I didn't investigate

01:30:45   the web equivalents of all of these things,

01:30:49   but my guess is that it would be something like

01:30:52   Twitterific or Slack or it would be something like that,

01:30:57   right, where it's like, well, can I just use Twitter

01:30:59   on the website?

01:31:00   Probably.

01:31:01   Can I use Slack on the iPhone in a web browser?

01:31:04   - You can.

01:31:05   it's probably fine. So I would just I would have to find I would have to go

01:31:10   through all the apps on my home screen and say do they have an equivalent on an

01:31:16   Apple app or an equivalent on the web that was good enough and that would lead

01:31:20   me to finally something that I absolutely had to to do but if it's got

01:31:26   an equivalent on the Apple I'm good so I don't have a I don't have a clear answer

01:31:29   here but I do have a philosophical answer is I would be trying to find

01:31:32   something that wasn't good on the web and didn't have an Apple equivalent, and that

01:31:36   would be my answer.

01:31:37   Well, I have an answer.

01:31:38   Okay.

01:31:39   You know, I'm not going to chicken out with this question like some people.

01:31:43   I don't have my home screen memorized.

01:31:44   I literally don't know what's on it, so that's a problem.

01:31:48   I didn't even need to know my home screen.

01:31:50   And then when you were talking, I looked at my home screen, and then I made my final decision,

01:31:54   and it was my original gut decision.

01:31:56   It's Timery.

01:31:57   I'm not surprised.

01:31:59   Timery is my favorite iOS app ever, anyway, I love it, it's amazing.

01:32:04   But the other experience is using toggle, and toggle sucks.

01:32:10   Like the toggle app sucks, which is why Timery exists in the first place, because the toggle

01:32:16   app is so bad.

01:32:17   And time tracking is very important to me, and I really wouldn't be able to do it efficiently

01:32:24   at all.

01:32:25   look at everything else I could get by with you know I could use Todoist in the

01:32:31   web browser I loved you but I could just set a bunch of alarms for myself all the

01:32:35   time even though it wouldn't work as well Instagram in the web browser I

01:32:40   would miss the team sharing features of spark but I could in a pinch I could use

01:32:44   Apple's mail app you know like slack I can use on the web like all of these

01:32:48   things could I could just use on the web instead but Timery is only an iOS app so

01:32:53   a Mac app, but it's only like a native Apple platforms app

01:32:56   and I really wouldn't want to use the toggle website.

01:32:58   So that's what I would go with.

01:33:00   - Yeah, I think that's a good choice.

01:33:03   Yeah, for me, I think it would end up being

01:33:06   either Slack or Twitterrific just because I use those

01:33:09   in the doc. - It would be a annoyance,

01:33:10   right? - I use them all the time.

01:33:11   - Yeah, it would be an annoyance thing, I think.

01:33:13   - And it would be a huge annoyance.

01:33:15   Yeah, that's probably what I do.

01:33:17   I like the MLB app.

01:33:18   I think I could probably do that on the web,

01:33:20   but it's okay.

01:33:22   I can survive without it.

01:33:24   I might have to choose the Roomba app, the iRobot app,

01:33:29   if only because I do need to tell my Roomba like,

01:33:32   when to vacuum assist. - There's an Alexa skill.

01:33:35   You could just enable that and just shout it into the void.

01:33:38   - Great.

01:33:39   You know, they actually, this is some breaking iRobot news.

01:33:42   The new version of the iRobot app for iOS supports shortcuts.

01:33:46   And it's limited, but it does mean that you can go

01:33:48   Ahoy telephone, start the robot

01:33:50   and have it actually start the robot.

01:33:53   - Super good. - Which is nice.

01:33:54   Yeah, so anyway, I find this question disconcerting

01:33:59   because the truth is, although there are apps

01:34:02   that I would miss, I could get by with the Apple equivalent

01:34:06   or the web version.

01:34:08   And I think that's really interesting.

01:34:10   It says something about how Apple has done a pretty good job

01:34:13   of providing kind of a foundational level of apps.

01:34:18   It also says something about how a lot of apps

01:34:22   are just nicer versions of the website.

01:34:24   - When I look at my home screen,

01:34:26   the apps are basically one of two things.

01:34:29   It is either what I think is a better version of a function

01:34:33   than Apple's app, meaning there is already an app for it,

01:34:36   but I have something I prefer more,

01:34:38   or it is a app that has a really good web version.

01:34:43   But like realistically, Instagram's web app

01:34:46   is not that different to their actual iPhone app.

01:34:49   Like it just feels a little bit better,

01:34:51   but you can still do everything.

01:34:53   So, yep.

01:34:56   Same as something like Discord and Slack, right?

01:34:58   When you go on the web versions,

01:34:59   it just feels like the app for good reasons, right?

01:35:02   'Cause really the apps are basically

01:35:04   just fancified web versions.

01:35:06   - They are exactly right.

01:35:08   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show send out to it with the hashtag #askupgrade or use question mark #askupgrade in the Relay FM members discord.

01:35:17   You will get access to this if you sign up for Upgrade Plus. Go to getupgradeplus.com if you have not already signed up for Upgrade Plus. Let me sell you on it here.

01:35:25   If you like this show, if you love this show, if you look forward to it every week you can get more of it.

01:35:29   Every single week we make a longer version of this show for people that subscribe and support the show with Upgrade Plus.

01:35:36   Upgrade Plus. You also get the show without any ads. They come out at the

01:35:39   same time. You get a ton of extra benefits for being a Relay FM member

01:35:43   like access to our Discord, bonus content every month. You get bonus content every

01:35:49   year. We do bonus shows of crossover shows. We're gonna be putting one

01:35:52   together which we'll talk about in a few weeks time. You also get our wonderful

01:35:57   newsletter that Steven puts together. There's tons of great stuff available

01:36:00   for a Relay FM member but if you choose to support Upgrade by going to

01:36:04   UpgradePlus.com. The benefits that you get for support in this show is a longer, ad-free

01:36:08   version every single week. It also helps support me and Jason, which we greatly appreciate.

01:36:13   If you have done that, if you have already signed up for UpgradePlus at either $5 a month

01:36:17   or $50 a year, thank you so much. We are actually approaching the two-year anniversary now,

01:36:24   I think within the next few weeks. I think it's like a couple of weeks from now is how

01:36:27   long we've been doing UpgradePlus. And I love doing it and it has made a real change to

01:36:33   the way that we produce the show and we greatly appreciate your support.

01:36:37   But you can always join at any time.

01:36:39   You can go back and listen to previous bot+ content if you want to.

01:36:42   It's all there in the feed waiting for you.

01:36:45   Thank you so much to our sponsors of this week's episode.

01:36:48   That is Trade, Ladder and Sourcegraph.

01:36:51   And thank you as always for listening.

01:36:53   We'll be back next week with the draft.

01:36:56   Don't forget we will record that episode live as we always do Monday, which will be Monday

01:37:00   the 30th of May 9 a.m. Pacific noon Eastern Time 5 British summer time you

01:37:07   can work out the rest from there depending on where you live in the world

01:37:10   you hope that you'll join us live. 8 Alaska. 8 Alaska time which is very important

01:37:15   we've got to keep mentioning that. 6 Hawaii. Okay great really just like picking off the

01:37:19   real unique time zones here have you got any more for me? What is it like is it oh

01:37:23   man if I get this wrong is it one of the Australian time zones is like an extra

01:37:30   a half an hour. Oh yeah. It's like, it's 2 a.m. in Sydney. Mm-hmm. But, in Melbourne.

01:37:40   No, it's also 2 a.m. in Melbourne. Is it Adelaide? I don't know. Yeah, it is. It's 1.30 a.m.

01:37:48   in Adelaide, so get up early for an upgrade draft. Or, do what most people do, which is

01:37:53   just the podcast then will appear in your podcast player and you can listen to it whenever

01:37:58   you like. But I'll say the draft and the keynote episodes, they're a wild time if you listen

01:38:02   live. It's true. Everyone can listen live for free, but the conversation happens on

01:38:07   our members Discord, which you get if you remember. Anyway, thanks for listening to

01:38:10   this week's episode of Upgrade and we'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye Jason

01:38:14   Snell. Good drafting everybody.

01:38:16   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:38:19   [ Music ]

01:38:22   [BLANK_AUDIO]