407: Inexplicable Billboards


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 407. Today's show is brought to you by Things,

00:00:15   Sourcegraph and Squarespace. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason.

00:00:19   Hi Myke. We're on the road to WWDC. We are and we're getting closer. It's not quite in

00:00:25   the road signs are saying WWDC but it's a large number of miles away still. But it's

00:00:30   getting closer.

00:00:31   Regular episode next week. Then we're drafting.

00:00:35   And then a draft and then it happens.

00:00:37   And then keynote. I'm getting pretty hyped about it personally. I'm maybe looking forward

00:00:41   to it.

00:00:42   I'm not prepared. I'm not emotionally prepared yet. I'm not ready yet, Myke. I'm not. My

00:00:47   head's not in it yet. Maybe next week.

00:00:48   Yeah, I never said I was prepared. I just said I'm excited.

00:00:50   Okay.

00:00:51   All right. I'm not ready. I'm just looking forward to it.

00:00:54   you know? All right, this is the big capper of my son graduating from high school the

00:01:00   same week as WWDC, so there's gonna be a lot going on that week is what I'm saying. There's

00:01:04   gonna be a lot going on, so I'm not prepared for any of it, but I better get prepared.

00:01:09   So yeah, it's getting close. I have a #SnailTalk question for you. It comes from Jared who

00:01:14   wants to know, "Jason, what is your preference in fonts? Are they different for reading and

00:01:20   How picky do you get?

00:01:22   - A bunch of people just press the chapter

00:01:23   for the word font right there.

00:01:25   The word fonts came up and they're like, nope, nope, nope.

00:01:28   - I'm good.

00:01:29   - I'm not that picky.

00:01:30   Let me do this quickly.

00:01:33   I like to write in monospace fonts.

00:01:35   Georgia is my preferred ebook reader font

00:01:40   'cause I think it looks the smoothest

00:01:41   and most like print on the Kobo and the Kindle actually,

00:01:44   even if you can get it on the Kindle.

00:01:47   Sometimes you can see it.

00:01:48   Sometimes you can sideload it.

00:01:50   Beyond that, I don't get picky at all.

00:01:55   So I have some preferences of like, this one looks nice.

00:01:58   And then yeah, for writing, I prefer mono space fonts.

00:02:02   I forget even what my default mono is right now.

00:02:04   I have different default mono space fonts

00:02:07   in a few different places in-

00:02:09   - So really it's like,

00:02:10   if there's an option for a mono space font

00:02:12   in a text editor, you'll take it.

00:02:14   You don't really care too much which one it is.

00:02:17   - Yeah, I'm using JetBrains Mono in BB Edit right now.

00:02:20   I think I'm using JetBrains Mono in a bunch of places,

00:02:22   but there are some other monospace fonts that I've got

00:02:24   that I also like that I think I'm using

00:02:26   a different one on iOS.

00:02:28   Maybe, I don't know, it's yeah.

00:02:30   Anyway, I am a monospace, I prefer to write with monospace

00:02:35   and then that's it.

00:02:36   I mean, really then I'm using default fonts,

00:02:38   I think in like Safari and stuff like that.

00:02:41   We're using, not to give anything away,

00:02:44   but we're using default fonts in our show document,

00:02:47   for example, so like, because we just don't,

00:02:49   we're not that picky.

00:02:50   - Yeah, we use Arial.

00:02:52   - Yeah, I know, right?

00:02:53   - I never even really considered it.

00:02:54   Like to me, this just is what Google Docs looks like.

00:02:56   - It's the Google Docs font, yeah.

00:02:59   - Well, like Google have better fonts that they make,

00:03:01   which is, it's funny that they use it,

00:03:02   but like, I think Roboto is their font,

00:03:06   and I actually think it's quite a nice looking font.

00:03:09   I think it's like the one they made for Android.

00:03:11   It's like their version of San Francisco.

00:03:13   I wouldn't mind having our show documents set

00:03:16   in San Francisco, but I don't even know if that's possible

00:03:18   in Google to add fonts.

00:03:20   That would be fun though.

00:03:22   Oh, Jason's changing all the fonts of our show document

00:03:24   to mono space, which I hate, I hate this, I hate this.

00:03:28   - It doesn't have to be mono, that's just one option.

00:03:30   We got a lot of options here.

00:03:31   - I don't like what you've done though.

00:03:33   It looks really upsetting to me.

00:03:35   If you would like to send in a question for us

00:03:37   to open an episode of Upgrade,

00:03:39   every part of our show document is currently getting changed

00:03:42   to a different font now.

00:03:43   I can't handle this.

00:03:46   you can send it a tweet with the hashtag #snelltalk or you can use question mark

00:03:49   #snelltalk in the Relay FM members discord and send in a question of your

00:03:54   own. Jason do you remember a number of weeks ago we spoke about tap to pay which

00:03:59   is something that Apple is going to be rolling out which will allow for

00:04:02   payments to be taken via the NFC chip in an iPhone and they were kind of inviting

00:04:09   third parties to sign up and kind of get involved you remember that they're

00:04:14   open it up? Yep. Well 9to5Mac is reporting that Apple's new Tap to Pay feature for the

00:04:20   iPhone is now in use at the Apple Park visitor center. So there's a video embedded in the

00:04:26   article that they've put together from a tweet. And so it appears that this is a test of this

00:04:32   upcoming feature. So you can see somebody paying via Apple Pay on their iPhone by tapping

00:04:38   it on the iPhone of someone at the store, one of the retail representatives at the store.

00:04:44   So they're clearly using this as like a test for the functionality.

00:04:47   Which is kind of funny because it is presumed that this will be an iOS 16 feature, so it's

00:04:53   intriguing, right, that these phones or these devices have got this function running.

00:05:00   Must be some kind of special build going on there.

00:05:01   I guess it is just over the road, right, where it's being made.

00:05:05   So I'm sure they can make that work pretty nicely.

00:05:08   It's interesting, I read in his article,

00:05:10   I didn't know this, but it makes a lot of sense to me

00:05:13   that things like this are tested

00:05:16   at the Apple Park store quite frequently,

00:05:20   which makes a lot of sense, right, that you would do that.

00:05:22   It's right there.

00:05:23   - Yeah, I think so.

00:05:25   It's a, right, they're using their own terminals

00:05:28   in order to test whether they can,

00:05:29   'cause the benefit for Apple is going to be

00:05:31   that they're gonna have,

00:05:33   they're going to be able to take Apple Pay using just stock iPhone hardware and stores

00:05:37   using this feature.

00:05:39   And we'll talk about this later on in the episode, but I think previously these card

00:05:44   readers were iPod Touches.

00:05:46   They would use iPod Touches with this thing attached to them.

00:05:48   Well, they don't have those anymore, so it's going to have to be an iPhone.

00:05:52   That makes a lot of sense.

00:05:54   This may be something, this feature the Apple Park visitor center did a bunch of developers

00:05:59   see in a few weeks.

00:06:00   Apple sent out their notice to developers that got approved to go to watch the WWDC thing.

00:06:06   We don't have any more details yet still as of recording, but congratulations to any developer.

00:06:12   It's going to be going out to Apple block.

00:06:14   It'll be pretty fun.

00:06:17   I would love to know, by the way, any upgrade-ions that are going to be going.

00:06:21   I would love to know.

00:06:22   You could send us pictures and stuff if you're allowed to do that when you're there.

00:06:24   That'd be fun.

00:06:25   Yeah.

00:06:26   Should we talk about Playdate a little bit?

00:06:27   A little Playdate update?

00:06:29   I don't want to, but we can.

00:06:30   - Oh, I mean, you don't have to.

00:06:32   I can just talk. - No, no, we can.

00:06:34   We can talk about it.

00:06:35   I'll talk about why in a minute, but.

00:06:38   - I just wanted to say, just a little follow-up,

00:06:40   this is a pick, pack, pup fan podcast now.

00:06:46   That's what it's gonna be from now on.

00:06:49   Sorry, everybody.

00:06:50   We're just gonna be talking about that little dog

00:06:52   and matching three or more items in a grid.

00:06:55   Just a great game.

00:06:57   Love it.

00:06:58   I love it more and more the more I play it.

00:07:00   It's got so many different dimensions.

00:07:01   - Very funny.

00:07:02   - It is funny.

00:07:02   It is funny and satirical.

00:07:04   It is a satire of an Amazon warehouse

00:07:07   inside an arcade game.

00:07:09   And it's just fun to play.

00:07:10   It's super kind of casual game of the kind that I like

00:07:13   where you can just play it for a little bit.

00:07:14   Those are the games that it turns out

00:07:16   that I like the most on Playdate

00:07:18   are the ones where you can just play for a few minutes

00:07:20   and then set it aside again

00:07:21   and not be so intense about it

00:07:24   where I can say, oh, Playdate, yeah, let's do that.

00:07:26   And then play for 10 minutes

00:07:28   and then set it aside again.

00:07:30   So Pick Pack Pup, I love.

00:07:32   - Yeah, I think Pick Pack Pup is the best game

00:07:35   to come from the season one so far.

00:07:39   There's been at least one game in the four week releases

00:07:44   that I've had so far that I've really liked.

00:07:47   This is, I really liked the game, Blumen,

00:07:50   I think it's called that.

00:07:52   - Bloom. - Bloom.

00:07:53   That's my favorite game that I've played so far.

00:07:57   and that's a third-party title.

00:07:59   And I really loved it.

00:08:01   - Yeah, I've been playing, so last week for me,

00:08:04   I got Flipper Lifter, which is good.

00:08:06   - Yeah, I got that today.

00:08:07   I got that today.

00:08:08   - It's good.

00:08:09   I have taken some time to learn it,

00:08:11   but it's actually a very cute mechanic

00:08:13   where you use the crank to put an elevator up and down

00:08:16   and penguins get in and out of the elevator

00:08:18   and you have to take the elevator to different floors.

00:08:19   - That was another game

00:08:20   that doesn't tell you what you're doing.

00:08:22   - Yeah, I know.

00:08:23   It just, this is my frustration

00:08:24   is I just want a little hint screen

00:08:26   that says here's how you do this.

00:08:27   and I didn't get it, but I do like that.

00:08:30   I have not even cracked Echoic Memory

00:08:32   because it had a lot of dialogue and I was like,

00:08:34   I can't do this right now. - I played a little bit

00:08:35   today and it's fun, it's also funny

00:08:37   and I like the game mechanic.

00:08:38   It's basically like Simon Says kind of.

00:08:41   - Ah, nice.

00:08:42   So I just haven't gotten into that one yet.

00:08:44   I'm still playing "Kranken's Time Travel Adventure".

00:08:46   I get to a hard one and then I sort of like leave it

00:08:48   and then I keep coming back to it

00:08:49   and trying to break that level and figure out that cycle

00:08:54   and then it's onto the next difficult cycle

00:08:55   but I'm still impressed by that.

00:08:57   I'm still playing "Wetwater Wipeout" too,

00:08:58   now that I finally figured out how to play it.

00:09:00   It's actually fun and very quick, which I like.

00:09:04   So I'm just saying, I'm pretty happy with it.

00:09:08   If I had any feedback about it,

00:09:11   I know we talked about their strategy

00:09:13   of dropping two games every week.

00:09:15   I now think they should have started with four games.

00:09:22   - And then two every week.

00:09:24   - And then two every week.

00:09:25   - I think you're right.

00:09:26   I think that the out-of-box experience

00:09:29   when you only have the two games

00:09:31   and they're a whitewater wipeout and casual birder,

00:09:34   I think it's not enough.

00:09:37   I think you need to get started,

00:09:40   I think you need a little more variety than that.

00:09:43   So that's sort of my putting on my critic's hat.

00:09:47   I think maybe that is a way to split the difference

00:09:50   between you don't want to give people 24 games up front.

00:09:53   I mean, that's not, it's too much.

00:09:55   You don't want that.

00:09:57   But I think that the two games in week one,

00:09:59   it's something that we talked about with the,

00:10:02   remember the iPhone transfer frustrations

00:10:05   that people would have where we said,

00:10:07   your happy day when you get a new iPhone,

00:10:09   it should be happy and not frustrating.

00:10:11   And Apple has spent the last few years

00:10:12   sort of trying to make it less frustrating.

00:10:16   That's sort of how I feel about the play dates.

00:10:17   Like you get the play date and you're really excited

00:10:19   and then there are two games and you don't understand them

00:10:23   and like, or you bounce off of them

00:10:26   and then you've got to wait a week

00:10:27   before there's a chance that you might find other games

00:10:30   that you like.

00:10:31   And I think it's just a mistake.

00:10:32   I think you need to go out stronger,

00:10:33   even if then the games come every two a week.

00:10:37   So yeah, that's my take on that.

00:10:40   - The reason I didn't wanna talk about Playdate

00:10:42   is 'cause I've broken my Playdate and I am not broken.

00:10:45   I dropped it, I had the case on, I dropped it.

00:10:48   It landed screen down and it broke part of,

00:10:52   it's broken part of the screen inside there's nothing on the outside it's on

00:10:55   the inside I put a link in the show notes you can see on the bottom left

00:10:58   put an image in the show notes in the bottom left of the screen you can see it

00:11:02   as like a little broken area and it's completely destroyed the screen itself I

00:11:07   cannot describe Jason how upset I am about this I I'm really really sad about

00:11:14   it because I love the play like that kids this is the weird thing for me where

00:11:20   Like it brings me such joy to play it,

00:11:24   but now it's broken, I'm really sad about it.

00:11:27   I'm currently playing some of the games

00:11:31   via the Mirror app on my Mac,

00:11:33   you know, 'cause you can plug it in via USB

00:11:34   and you can play it in that way, which works,

00:11:36   but it's just not the same.

00:11:37   And also like, when I'm, if I'm like playing

00:11:40   or looking at the screen,

00:11:41   the screen is flashing and flickering all over the place,

00:11:44   which is really distracting.

00:11:46   This happened last Thursday.

00:11:49   I sent a support ticket into the Panic Playdate team last Thursday to tell them what I'd done

00:11:56   and ask if there's anything that can be done.

00:11:58   I haven't heard from them yet.

00:12:00   I really hope that they will say, "Give us money and we'll send you another one."

00:12:07   Because this is the issue with their system right now is I would like to replace it, but

00:12:11   I would have to currently get into the back of the queue and wait until 2023.

00:12:16   So I don't know.

00:12:17   that like they are replacing broken models like if they send you a model and

00:12:24   it's broken like it doesn't work they're replacing it I hope that they would

00:12:29   extend a similar thing to me and I'll pay them right like I'm not looking for

00:12:33   a free unit but like I would really love to be able to just give them another

00:12:38   hundred and eighty dollars or whatever it is and get another one and I'll send

00:12:42   them back this one because I mean if I don't know if I'm from like four feet

00:12:46   and it had the cover on it.

00:12:48   Um, and so I'm, you know, it broke in a way that I'm surprised it broke.

00:12:54   I'm not like, anything could break at this height, like a phone could break or whatever.

00:12:58   Uh, but I would just, I would love to be able to replace it.

00:13:01   Like, I really want to be able to replace it.

00:13:03   And I'm trying to do this the right way, like I'm not tweeting about this, right?

00:13:07   Like, we're talking about it here because like this is a podcast,

00:13:10   no, no, you know, it's not gonna, no one's gonna hear it.

00:13:13   But like, so I've sent them a ticket and I'm hoping that they will get to that ticket within

00:13:18   the next few days and give me some kind of resolution to it.

00:13:23   If they don't, then they don't and you know, I broke the thing.

00:13:27   I'm not gonna be like, I'm not gonna flame them.

00:13:29   I'll be sad about it.

00:13:30   But then I'm gonna have to go to the aftermarket, which I really don't want to do.

00:13:35   So I hope that they can give me some kind of solution because currently I am heartbroken

00:13:41   about my little yellow box being broken.

00:13:43   - It's interesting that there's the whole thing about

00:13:47   like we have to ship these products, but there's,

00:13:50   and that's been a story they've told,

00:13:52   the complexity of that,

00:13:53   but there's this whole other complexity, right?

00:13:55   Which is they need to have an infrastructure

00:13:58   to replace broken units,

00:14:02   whether they're broken by you or broken like in transit

00:14:05   or they didn't, they weren't right.

00:14:06   Like they can't just ship them out there and go,

00:14:08   good luck and not offer support.

00:14:10   So there's a whole extra level of complexity.

00:14:13   Well, I guess we'll follow along.

00:14:14   - 'Cause I don't know what the right thing to do is, right?

00:14:16   Like, do you, 'cause I say,

00:14:19   like I've dropped mine and broke mine, right?

00:14:21   Do you replace me or do I go to the back of the line?

00:14:24   I don't know which is more fair.

00:14:25   - I feel like the right thing for them to do is,

00:14:29   and the fair thing for them to do is essentially

00:14:31   to have a repair program where you send it in and pay a fee

00:14:34   and they send you one back,

00:14:36   whether it's yours or a different one

00:14:39   that is the repair and that the repair program

00:14:44   is different from waiting in line to buy another one.

00:14:47   But I don't know, I mean, that's their decision too.

00:14:51   - 'Cause it's like, part of the money I paid

00:14:53   is for these games, I can't get, I guess I can.

00:14:57   The good thing is I can play them, it's just not as fun.

00:15:01   But like at least, if they tell me no,

00:15:04   I can at least play these games.

00:15:07   It's just not as enjoyable for me to play this game.

00:15:09   - Because you have to sit at a computer playing them.

00:15:12   - And it's just, it's not the same.

00:15:14   So this damage is like, the screen is unusable now.

00:15:19   Like I can't see anything on the screen anymore.

00:15:21   It's completely busted the screen.

00:15:23   - When you say aftermarket, you're like,

00:15:25   well, if you can't get one for three years,

00:15:26   you're gonna investigate, can you buy that screen

00:15:28   and then reattach it yourself, that sort of thing?

00:15:31   - I don't know, this thing doesn't seem

00:15:34   very user replaceable.

00:15:35   - Yeah, it doesn't seem...

00:15:37   - Yeah, it's like I also wouldn't, you know,

00:15:39   I don't think it's gonna work.

00:15:41   - Send it to Quinn.

00:15:42   Send it to Quinn Nelson, he'll take it apart.

00:15:45   - He likes to do that.

00:15:46   - But he won't put it back together, sorry.

00:15:49   - Jason, you have a note in our show notes here

00:15:52   that you're upset about something about Apple Music

00:15:54   and I can't understand what it is, so.

00:15:56   - Okay, yes, this is welcome to

00:15:59   Jason Complains About Apple Music.

00:16:01   It's a new segment, one time, maybe.

00:16:03   - One time segment. - Maybe more.

00:16:05   - We'll see.

00:16:06   - Okay, so I listen to a lot of Apple Music playlists.

00:16:09   That's the one I'm working.

00:16:11   That's the thing I do.

00:16:12   So I open up the Alt Control playlist,

00:16:18   which is the alternative curated playlist.

00:16:21   So it's an Apple Music playlist.

00:16:22   It's not a playlist I made.

00:16:24   It's a playlist made by the curators at Apple.

00:16:26   And for the last few months,

00:16:31   since they redesigned their playlist,

00:16:33   They have a lead item on the playlist, which is weird, where they have a takeover.

00:16:38   The art on the playlist is an artist, and they have a little blurb at the top that is

00:16:44   from an interview with the artist or the artist's publicity representatives or whatever.

00:16:48   And it's like, "Oh, here's a little tidbit from this artist whose new song is on the

00:16:53   playlist."

00:16:54   And part of me thinks this...

00:16:56   I don't think that Apple is being sleazy by doing this, but it has that music industry

00:17:01   promotional vibe that's kind of sleazy, which is like, we're pushing this artist hard.

00:17:06   And so we're going to do an interview and he's going to be in our playlist and it's

00:17:10   going to be great.

00:17:12   And I don't love it, but it's like, it's fine.

00:17:14   In the end, I don't need to read the thing or look at the art and the song is in there

00:17:18   and I'll like it or I won't like it.

00:17:21   However, recently they did something new, which is they've added an additional track

00:17:27   to the playlist, which is a 37 second long voice interview with the artist that they're

00:17:35   promoting in the playlist this week.

00:17:38   Now, talking to my wife about this, she points out that when we're in the car and we're listening

00:17:43   to the radio on like the satellite radio and the DJ comes on between the songs that I complain

00:17:48   or I change the channel because I just don't want to hear them talk.

00:17:51   And it's like, it's a choice.

00:17:53   Some people like to hear those people talk.

00:17:54   That's why they have jobs.

00:17:55   I don't particularly like it.

00:17:57   I just want to hear more music,

00:17:58   so I'll just change the channel.

00:18:00   And it is true that when this,

00:18:01   if I listen to this playlist,

00:18:03   I can just skip the guy talking and it's okay.

00:18:07   But I will point out that this little addition

00:18:11   exacerbates a problem with Apple Music,

00:18:18   which is there is no way

00:18:23   to tell Apple Music not to play something

00:18:28   in one of its playlists, right?

00:18:32   There is a dislike command you can do to a song now, right?

00:18:37   So you can like a song, you can get a little heart,

00:18:41   you can love a song, but you can also say,

00:18:43   I don't like this song.

00:18:45   However, what does that do?

00:18:47   It seems to impact the algorithm for Apple Music.

00:18:51   So like, what do you like and what do you not like?

00:18:54   What it doesn't seem to do is not play that song

00:18:57   when you're in a playlist.

00:19:00   And it's driving me batty because,

00:19:04   and this is a bigger issue than just the 37 seconds

00:19:07   of the dude talking about his song,

00:19:08   which I don't wanna hear.

00:19:10   And it's very jarring when suddenly it's not music

00:19:12   on my music playlist and there's just this guy talking.

00:19:15   But the bigger issue is, you know,

00:19:18   that playlist is 76 songs, okay?

00:19:20   It's 75 songs and then a song of a guy talking

00:19:24   about his song.

00:19:25   There are a bunch of songs on there that I don't like

00:19:29   and I don't wanna hear,

00:19:29   but I still wanna shuffle through the playlist

00:19:31   'cause there are a lot of songs on there that I do like.

00:19:34   And that's where I discover new music.

00:19:36   And as far as I can tell,

00:19:38   there's no way for me to say don't play this again, right?

00:19:41   I have no ability.

00:19:42   Back in the old iTunes days,

00:19:44   you could like uncheck a track, right?

00:19:46   Do you remember that?

00:19:47   And it'd be like, don't play.

00:19:50   Don't play unchecked tracks.

00:19:51   - I have a question for you.

00:19:51   When you start playing,

00:19:53   like when I play an album or whatever,

00:19:56   I can go into like a queue

00:19:58   and I can remove things from the queue when it's playing.

00:20:01   Do you get the ability to do that

00:20:02   when it's a playlist like this?

00:20:04   - Yes, yes.

00:20:06   But then you're doing,

00:20:06   but this is my point is then you're doing maintenance

00:20:08   every time you play a playlist,

00:20:09   you have to go into up next and say,

00:20:11   oh, let's see if there's anything--

00:20:12   - Which is not the point of these playlists, right?

00:20:14   They're supposed to give you what you wanna listen to.

00:20:17   - Right, at that point,

00:20:17   it would be easier for me to wait for the song.

00:20:19   I don't like to come on and then press next, right?

00:20:21   That would be less intensive work for me to do it that way.

00:20:25   But what I really wanna do is,

00:20:27   hey, I told you I don't like this, don't play it.

00:20:31   Or have an option somewhere that says,

00:20:33   don't play things I don't like.

00:20:34   Or have an option somewhere,

00:20:36   in addition to disliking something that says,

00:20:38   don't play this.

00:20:40   - I find this weird because it's like,

00:20:42   why is this even here?

00:20:44   Like this is a music playlist.

00:20:46   Like if I wanted the interviews,

00:20:47   I would listen to beat, whatever they call it,

00:20:50   Beat One or App Music One or whatever they call it, right?

00:20:52   The radio station.

00:20:54   But like I'm choosing to listen to a playlist of songs.

00:20:56   It's like, 'cause then it's like,

00:20:57   "Why is there only one of them if you're gonna do it?"

00:20:59   Like I get it, like this is odd to me.

00:21:01   This reminds me, Edina is a Spotify user.

00:21:04   And a couple of weeks ago she was listening,

00:21:06   like she just does what most Spotify users do, right?

00:21:09   Which is like,

00:21:09   I wanna listen to the playlist they've made me.

00:21:11   They know my music tastes or that kind of thing.

00:21:13   And she tried out a new one.

00:21:14   It was called like the morning playlist or something.

00:21:17   And like every couple of songs it will play a segment

00:21:20   from a podcast.

00:21:22   - What? - Just a segment.

00:21:23   Like a news kind of thing.

00:21:25   And I'd hear her skipping them.

00:21:26   I'm like, "What is going on?"

00:21:27   And she's like, "I tried this new,"

00:21:29   and then she told me, "I tried this new play this thing out."

00:21:32   I was like, "That is terrible."

00:21:33   Like, I can't think, like what they're trying to do there

00:21:37   is rebuild the morning radio, right?

00:21:39   So like a few songs and then there's some news.

00:21:43   But that to me is like terrible.

00:21:46   I don't, this idea of this morning show vibe thing,

00:21:51   it doesn't, just because it exists,

00:21:53   it doesn't mean we should replicate it.

00:21:55   And also that's not even the way to replicate it.

00:21:58   Like here's six segments from six different podcasts

00:22:01   intermingled with three songs each time or whatever.

00:22:04   - So here's the thing.

00:22:05   I am absolutely accepting of the idea

00:22:09   that some people like this, right?

00:22:12   Like I don't like it, but I'm not gonna say

00:22:15   because I don't like it, nobody should have it.

00:22:18   I'm not gonna be that kind of a person.

00:22:20   I'm gonna say people obviously do like this

00:22:23   because otherwise if nobody liked it,

00:22:25   why would you spend money and time and effort doing it?

00:22:28   What I'm saying is I don't like it.

00:22:30   And I would like something

00:22:33   since we are now in a digital streaming world,

00:22:35   we have an app, we have software,

00:22:38   we have all this intelligence, we have an interface.

00:22:40   I just wanna be able to say, I don't wanna hear it.

00:22:44   Right? I mean, I'm paying for Apple Music.

00:22:46   (laughs)

00:22:48   Apple Music is supposed to do what I want.

00:22:50   I'm not even listening to streaming radio, right?

00:22:53   I'm literally, I can do next track at every time.

00:22:56   I don't understand, like this is why you're degrading,

00:23:00   honestly, you're degrading the experience

00:23:02   by not letting me shut it off.

00:23:03   And that's all I'm really asking for.

00:23:05   I actually don't mind if they do all sorts of interviews

00:23:08   and stuff in, I've had to do this by the way,

00:23:11   with albums that I've bought,

00:23:13   where there's like the special extended version

00:23:15   of the album that's got an extra track on it,

00:23:17   but it also has a bunch of interviews.

00:23:18   And I have to go in and remove the tracks

00:23:22   that are not from my library,

00:23:26   or change them to a different album name

00:23:28   so that they're not, when I play the album,

00:23:29   they don't play the interviews

00:23:32   because I don't wanna hear the interviews.

00:23:34   I maybe wanted to hear them one time,

00:23:36   but I don't ever wanna hear them again.

00:23:38   And by the way, that's the other thing about this thing

00:23:40   is if I listen to that playlist multiple times

00:23:44   and I start from the top and don't shuffle,

00:23:47   the first thing every time will be the interview

00:23:49   with the guy.

00:23:50   Just the same one.

00:23:51   It's not, it's a playlist of songs.

00:23:55   It's not an interview show.

00:23:58   - So Zach had mentioned in the Discord

00:24:00   that this week's playlist,

00:24:01   the interview part is the third track.

00:24:04   So it's now become even unreliable for you.

00:24:07   - Oh great.

00:24:08   - Because it's gonna appear at random points.

00:24:09   What I don't know, and I haven't had a chance to verify this,

00:24:14   what I don't know is if they are doing some magic

00:24:17   behind the scenes where if you shuffle it, it doesn't play.

00:24:21   I don't know that.

00:24:22   - I would doubt that.

00:24:24   - I would doubt it.

00:24:25   - I reckon it will play.

00:24:25   - But imagine how bad that is too,

00:24:27   where it's like you've got a one in 76 chance

00:24:29   of just some random dude talking about a song coming up.

00:24:32   - It's just like, you heard the song six songs ago

00:24:37   - Oh no, now here's the black keys

00:24:39   to tell you about their new hit.

00:24:40   - The bottom line here is,

00:24:42   Apple needs to do a better job in the music app

00:24:47   of understanding when we don't like something

00:24:51   and don't wanna hear about it.

00:24:52   'Cause this is what is happening here,

00:24:54   is they make these great curated playlists,

00:24:56   which I like a lot,

00:24:58   and they let us give our opinions

00:25:00   about what we like and we don't like,

00:25:01   and those seem to feed into their algorithms

00:25:03   about other kinds of suggestions and music we get,

00:25:06   nor our personal radio stations and all of those things.

00:25:09   But it's missing this one thing,

00:25:10   which is what are the chances that out of 75 songs,

00:25:14   I'm going to find a handful that I hate?

00:25:19   Pretty big, pretty big.

00:25:21   Why do I have to skip them every time, right?

00:25:23   Like this is a computer, it's marked as dislike.

00:25:27   It shouldn't be that hard.

00:25:29   And you're like, well, maybe we dislike

00:25:30   being something different.

00:25:31   You don't actually wanna skip it.

00:25:32   It's like, okay, make a preference that says,

00:25:35   skip disliked songs.

00:25:37   That would be great.

00:25:38   Let's do that.

00:25:39   We could do that, but they don't do that.

00:25:44   So here we are.

00:25:46   Anyway, that's my rant.

00:25:47   That's my complaint is they're inserting things

00:25:51   that aren't songs in playlists.

00:25:53   And if you try to escape it by saying, I don't like it,

00:25:56   'cause I did, I disliked that guy talking about his song.

00:25:59   I marked it as a dislike, but it doesn't really matter.

00:26:01   It's still gonna play it

00:26:03   because it doesn't care that I dislike it.

00:26:05   It's gonna make me listen to the start of it

00:26:08   and then skip over it.

00:26:09   It's like, be better, Apple.

00:26:11   That's what I'm saying.

00:26:12   - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Things,

00:26:14   the award-winning to-do app.

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00:26:45   in your pocket and even on your wrist.

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00:27:18   I use it very frequently. I use it for a bunch of template tasks that I have when I just

00:27:22   want to create a real nice list with some notes and go through and check them all off

00:27:26   and it feels so great to check them all off on the iPhone.

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00:27:59   Time for a Rumour Roundup for you Jsus now.

00:28:02   Mark Gurman has given a couple more details on what he believes we can expect for WWDC.

00:28:07   This comes from Mark's Power On newsletter at Bloomberg.

00:28:12   While I don't expect Apple to present a full redesign of the software, there should be

00:28:17   major changes across the system, new ways of interacting and some fresh Apple apps.

00:28:23   The news about watchOS 9 will be significant as well.

00:28:27   This adds to Mark's previous reports of revamped notifications and health upgrades.

00:28:31   So there's a couple of things I wanted to mention on this.

00:28:33   One, I guess we're in high season for WWDC info but as of yet, as of recording today,

00:28:39   hasn't been anything major, right?

00:28:40   No screenshots, no like "here's what's going on" right?

00:28:44   This is about as much as we've gotten so far.

00:28:47   The thing that is most surprising to me here is watchOS 9 will be significant.

00:28:52   I kind of didn't really think there would be any significant watchOS upgrades until

00:28:58   I guess they really change what the watch is.

00:29:00   You know what I mean?

00:29:01   Like, if they changed the watch's shape or they changed the watch's screen size significantly,

00:29:07   maybe it would be significant.

00:29:09   But other than that, it kind of felt like to me, watchOS 9 was just going to be getting

00:29:13   like small features or features that go along with iPhone features.

00:29:20   So like the fact that there were new health stuff

00:29:22   on the phone, maybe figured there'd be new health stuff

00:29:24   on the watch.

00:29:25   - Well, there was the rumor out there

00:29:26   that they were going to revamp all the old watch faces

00:29:29   and bring them up to speed.

00:29:31   So maybe there's, maybe that the watchOS 9

00:29:33   will be significant in a way,

00:29:34   because they're gonna kind of break the seal

00:29:36   on a bunch of stuff that they haven't touched

00:29:38   since the beginning and reconfigure some things.

00:29:40   And maybe that means that there'll be some changes

00:29:44   in what the complications do or access to watch faces

00:29:49   or who knows what, but like, that rumor makes me think

00:29:53   that that's what's going on is a kind of a refresh

00:29:57   and a letting go of some of the old, you know,

00:30:00   original Apple Watch conceptions in version 9.

00:30:03   - I would like that.

00:30:04   New ways of interacting and some fresh Apple apps.

00:30:09   I don't really know what that means.

00:30:10   - It's pretty big, isn't it?

00:30:12   - Yeah, maybe it will make sense later on,

00:30:15   but like, you know, I could imagine, you know,

00:30:17   something we were talking about a lot last year.

00:30:21   Safari was the only app that got this rethink of navigation.

00:30:26   Like, as screen sizes have gotten bigger,

00:30:28   the main amount of navigation stuff was moved to the bottom.

00:30:33   Which, Maps had had it previously, right?

00:30:36   Like Maps had kind of gone that way,

00:30:38   and then Safari had gone that way.

00:30:40   I wouldn't mind seeing some of that,

00:30:43   provided it's done well. (laughs)

00:30:46   I think he's in a great place now, but wasn't at first on the iPhone. So I wouldn't mind

00:30:53   that.

00:30:54   Yeah, I don't know how to read this. It's just so vague that, you know, great, new ways

00:31:01   of interacting. All right, major changes across the system, but not a full redesign. Some

00:31:07   fresh Apple apps. What does that mean?

00:31:09   I don't know, man.

00:31:10   Those new apps or those updated apps? Well, we'll just see. Let's just, we'll wait and

00:31:13   see.

00:31:14   that means really but the watch OS 9 part was the part that surprised me the

00:31:19   most and was mostly why I wanted to include this because I hadn't really

00:31:22   considered that as a thing. MacRumors is reporting that purple could be a new

00:31:29   color option for iPhones this year. Quote said to be a unique finish that shifts

00:31:35   tone based on lighting conditions. So the report which is coming again from Weibo

00:31:41   is saying that purple will be the color, right?

00:31:46   My expectation here, just from thinking about this

00:31:49   and looking at how Apple's done this in the past,

00:31:51   is that the unique finish version will be on the Pro phones

00:31:56   and the regular phones will get

00:31:59   just a kind of flat purple color.

00:32:02   That's why I think that's right.

00:32:04   - The colors are, we'll have to keep an eye on this,

00:32:08   but it's fine, they refresh their colors every year.

00:32:12   I think that's good.

00:32:13   If they've got, somebody saw one

00:32:15   that they thought was impressive

00:32:16   and so there's a report about it, that's great.

00:32:19   I don't, I still don't entirely understand

00:32:23   what Apple's doing with its color palette on the iPhone.

00:32:26   My biggest one though, my biggest mystery

00:32:30   is why they have the spring extra color thing

00:32:34   they've done the last two years.

00:32:36   - Yeah.

00:32:37   'Cause I don't understand that at all.

00:32:39   Not only is it weird that like,

00:32:41   there's this extra color that appears,

00:32:44   and I know we've talked about this before,

00:32:46   but like, I don't know who's gonna say,

00:32:48   "Oh, wait, wait, green?

00:32:50   Oh, they finally made a green iPhone?

00:32:51   Well, then now I'll buy my iPhone."

00:32:53   - Now's the time to buy, yeah.

00:32:54   - And then they do advertising

00:32:56   where they advertise the fact that there's a green iPhone.

00:32:58   It's like, who cares?

00:32:59   Who cares that there's a green iPhone?

00:33:01   I don't understand.

00:33:02   Why didn't you come out with an extra color in the fall?

00:33:04   Oh, well, we couldn't make the...

00:33:05   All right, I guess.

00:33:07   But why in the spring do you bring out a green iPhone?

00:33:10   I don't-- - It is peculiar.

00:33:11   - Or purple the previous year, right?

00:33:13   It's like, I just don't understand what they're doing

00:33:15   with that and that I'm gonna put it on the pile

00:33:18   of color related things I don't understand

00:33:20   about Apple strategy.

00:33:22   - I saw the green for the first time this weekend.

00:33:24   It was in London and was going by the Apple store

00:33:28   and we had to pop in for something.

00:33:29   So I was like, oh look, there's the green one.

00:33:31   And it's a nice green.

00:33:32   You know, like if that green would have been available

00:33:34   when the iPhone 13 lineup came out,

00:33:37   maybe that would have been where I went instead of gold,

00:33:39   but like I wasn't a big fan of the,

00:33:42   whatever color blue it's called.

00:33:44   I didn't really like that blue.

00:33:46   Pacific blue, right?

00:33:48   And then the green is alpine green on the Pro phone.

00:33:51   - Something like that, yeah.

00:33:52   - There is also, you know, Shoreditch in London, right?

00:33:55   It's a pretty cool like hip area.

00:33:57   I don't know if this is like some rule in Shoreditch

00:34:01   or it's like just like a fun thing that people do,

00:34:02   but there's an area in Shoreditch where

00:34:05   there's a lot of advertising, which is murals.

00:34:08   They're murals, they're painted onto the walls.

00:34:11   And there is a really great Apple one,

00:34:14   which is like, you know the regular Apple billboard, right?

00:34:17   It's got like the two green phones

00:34:19   and it's like iPhone now in green or whatever it is.

00:34:21   They've just painted that on the wall

00:34:23   and it looks just like the billboard.

00:34:25   Like it's really cool.

00:34:26   So, you know, just a couple of things

00:34:28   about the green iPhones that I've encountered

00:34:30   in my travels in the last couple of weeks.

00:34:32   - I just don't understand it.

00:34:34   - I don't know, I don't know why either.

00:34:36   I mean, you've got to assume it must make sense

00:34:39   'cause they've done it more than once now,

00:34:41   but I find it very odd, like it is very odd.

00:34:46   Like why another color, why like halfway through the cycle

00:34:50   is the only change that the phones get,

00:34:52   they get one extra color added to the lineup.

00:34:55   - And I get that it gets them, you know,

00:34:56   it allows them to have something to talk about

00:34:58   when they don't have anything new,

00:35:00   But you could, the counter argument is,

00:35:02   if you train people that if they don't like all the colors,

00:35:05   they should just wait and buy it later on.

00:35:07   Like you're deferring sales by doing that.

00:35:09   Or maybe that's the strategy, but I just, it frustrates me.

00:35:13   And what really frustrates me is you end up

00:35:15   with these kind of inexplicable billboards

00:35:17   that are like a green phone.

00:35:20   And regular people out in the world,

00:35:22   I've, you know, who I know say, what?

00:35:26   Why is that a thing?

00:35:28   And my answer is, I don't know why that's a thing.

00:35:30   I don't know why it's a,

00:35:32   they're heavily advertising that now last year's iPhone

00:35:35   also comes in green.

00:35:36   I don't get it.

00:35:38   So I guess we'll see which colors are represented

00:35:41   in the fall and which one will be the odd man out

00:35:44   and have to wait for next spring.

00:35:47   - Yeah, I mean, and I completely would accept

00:35:49   that this is like a blind spot that I have

00:35:52   through being so focused on when the iPhone comes out,

00:35:56   right, that like people aren't as clued in on it,

00:35:59   although I don't know how you couldn't be

00:36:00   with the iPhone especially,

00:36:02   because it's like front page news when there's a new iPhone,

00:36:07   especially if it has any interesting features.

00:36:09   But like, so you know, maybe they're like,

00:36:11   people are just like, "Oh, green one."

00:36:14   But again, I still can't imagine that's massive business,

00:36:18   the old green one.

00:36:19   - And it's not like a watch band where you're like,

00:36:20   "Oh, here's a new watch band color," right?

00:36:22   It's like, "Oh, I'll collect them all.

00:36:24   I'm going to get all the colors of iPhone and have them in my pocket.

00:36:28   I, uh, okay.

00:36:30   Yeah.

00:36:30   Like, and I know that people like, I've said it before and it's like this idea

00:36:37   of like, in some cultures, it's like really beneficial to have the newest thing.

00:36:41   Right.

00:36:42   Like that's one of the reasons you changed the design is so it is obvious

00:36:46   that you have the new device, but again, like I still can't imagine the green

00:36:51   one is enough to drive that either.

00:36:53   So I mean, I don't know, but they do it for a reason, right?

00:36:56   And if they keep doing it, there must be a reason,

00:36:58   but I can't get my head around why exactly it's that important

00:37:03   now to have a new version of both phones in a new color.

00:37:07   Odd.

00:37:09   Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that Apple

00:37:11   could be preparing an Apple TV refresh for later in 2022.

00:37:17   Kuo quotes-- is quoting, "improved cost structure."

00:37:23   as the reason for this.

00:37:24   So in trying to tease that apart a little bit,

00:37:27   because here's the thing, Ming-Chi Kuo,

00:37:29   I'm so happy that Ming-Chi Kuo is on Twitter, right?

00:37:32   So I can actually see what Ming-Chi Kuo says

00:37:34   rather than everybody reporting on what Ming-Chi Kuo says.

00:37:38   And so the thing is, because the area in which Ming-Chi Kuo works in

00:37:43   is very much this kind of area.

00:37:45   It's less Mark Gurman, right?

00:37:46   Where Mark will get a piece of information

00:37:49   and will build a story around it.

00:37:51   where Ming-Chi Kuo is just like sharing analyst information,

00:37:54   which is like improved cost structure.

00:37:56   So if I'm trying to tease that apart,

00:37:58   my expectation here is options, right?

00:38:03   So like I could imagine improved cost structure being,

00:38:07   we've got the Apple TV where it is right now at its price,

00:38:11   which is, I don't know, a million dollars basically

00:38:14   for the value you get from an Apple TV box.

00:38:17   Like was like a hundred and something something dollars

00:38:20   an Apple TV right now? What is it, $199?

00:38:23   - It's $199 for the big one, $149 for the one

00:38:26   with a little less storage, and the,

00:38:28   or that's $149 for the old model, the HD.

00:38:32   - Right. - $199 and $179

00:38:33   for the 4K models. - Okay.

00:38:35   - So yeah.

00:38:36   - And I assume you only get the new,

00:38:38   the remote with the two expensive ones.

00:38:40   I expect you to get the old one over the cheap one.

00:38:42   So really, like, if you look at this,

00:38:44   the Apple TV, I mean, we know this is terrible value, right?

00:38:48   As a product.

00:38:49   because especially now that the TV app,

00:38:52   which is the only thing that Apple makes

00:38:55   that is important for a TV device like this,

00:38:59   is on televisions.

00:39:02   It's on Roku, it's on everything, right?

00:39:06   You can just get the TV app wherever you want to,

00:39:08   wherever you're currently watching TV, by and large,

00:39:10   if you have some kind of internet connected thing.

00:39:12   - Real time follow up,

00:39:13   Zach says that they put the new remote on all models.

00:39:16   They don't want to make that old remote anymore.

00:39:17   - Good, but nevertheless, right?

00:39:19   I'm standing by what I said, right?

00:39:20   - 149 when you've got a lot of 4K devices

00:39:23   that are under $50.

00:39:25   - So I could imagine improved cost structure

00:39:29   being like a spread of this line.

00:39:31   So like I think Apple need to just get rid

00:39:33   of this price point, just say goodbye.

00:39:35   I do a really cheap version,

00:39:38   which really is just TV apps

00:39:41   because that's all that should be on the Apple TV anyway,

00:39:44   in my opinion.

00:39:45   And then a more expensive version, which like in the future,

00:39:50   which incorporates everything that we want, right?

00:39:53   Which is like, it's a HomePod and an Apple TV all in one.

00:39:56   - I feel like since Ming-Chi Kuo is looking

00:39:58   at the supply side and the parts that go into these devices

00:40:02   that when he talks about improved cost structure,

00:40:05   he's literally talking about using,

00:40:08   designing something that uses things

00:40:10   that don't cost very much

00:40:11   so that Apple can sell a cheaper product

00:40:13   at the margins that they're used to.

00:40:15   So what is that?

00:40:17   I don't know.

00:40:18   I think that part of the challenge

00:40:20   with the whole Apple TV HD and 4K generations

00:40:24   is they were engineered for that,

00:40:27   like future of TV as apps kind of scenario

00:40:31   with games and all of that.

00:40:32   And so on that level, I think you're right

00:40:34   that the way you get something down in under $100

00:40:38   is by having it not particularly perform well

00:40:41   at things like games.

00:40:42   because who cares?

00:40:45   And you really want it to be able to play video

00:40:48   and like do Apple Fitness,

00:40:50   which is basically one of the few things

00:40:52   that really does require an Apple TV at this point,

00:40:56   stuff like that,

00:40:56   but not have the kind of power that is required

00:41:00   to do games and stuff like that.

00:41:02   And you just try to build something around that price point,

00:41:06   which none of these are.

00:41:08   I mean, I think that's one of the reasons

00:41:09   why the Apple TV HD is 149.

00:41:12   Part of it is Apple just wants to make money,

00:41:14   but part of it is that it was engineered

00:41:16   for a different strategy.

00:41:18   And that strategy that it was engineered for

00:41:21   has some costs in terms of what's in that product.

00:41:24   So if they're really doing a new,

00:41:27   what he says is a new version of Apple TV

00:41:30   that improves cost structure,

00:41:32   that sounds to me like they're recasting the product

00:41:36   around what they now think the Apple TV's role is.

00:41:41   And that might mean for the whole product line,

00:41:45   maybe it's scalable and it starts lower and it goes higher.

00:41:49   Or it may be that there's going to be a new Apple TV

00:41:51   that is the cheap one.

00:41:54   And the existing 4K just sort of remains at its price point.

00:41:58   That's kind of interesting.

00:41:59   But as somebody who just bought an Apple TV,

00:42:02   because I wanted to put a TV in a room for Apple Fitness

00:42:07   and I was like, oh yeah,

00:42:09   you kind of need an Apple TV for that.

00:42:10   So I bought an Apple TV and I thought to myself,

00:42:13   oh boy, here I am buying a $150 Apple TV.

00:42:17   It's kind of ridiculous when I bought a 4K Roku for $40

00:42:21   or something like that.

00:42:22   But it's not a key part of Apple strategy,

00:42:26   but it sure would be nice if Apple could bring its approach

00:42:30   to this hardware down to a lower price point

00:42:33   so that they could at least have an argument

00:42:36   against some of these.

00:42:39   I got a lot of feedback when I wrote that article

00:42:41   about the Apple TV a year or two ago

00:42:44   from people like, "Oh, but you know,

00:42:45   it's privacy and all these things."

00:42:48   And my biggest answer was yes,

00:42:51   but if you're talking to a consumer

00:42:53   and their options are $150 or $30 saying,

00:42:58   but privacy, it's like most people are gonna be like,

00:43:01   "Nah, $30."

00:43:05   Like it's like $30 wins over 150.

00:43:08   Maybe if it was 70 or 60 or 80,

00:43:13   it's at least a better chance

00:43:16   that you're gonna grab some of those people

00:43:17   and have them use Apple's product.

00:43:20   - Mason in a Discord asked,

00:43:21   "What if it's just like an AirPlay receiver,

00:43:24   like a Chromecast?"

00:43:25   I don't like that kind of model.

00:43:28   Like I want something with a remote.

00:43:30   Like this is why Google now makes the Chromecast

00:43:32   with Google TV, right?

00:43:34   You can buy a Chromecast, which is just like on your phone,

00:43:37   you can say, watch this,

00:43:39   or you can also have that functionality,

00:43:41   but also like a menu that you can scroll through

00:43:43   with a remote and tap on that.

00:43:45   Like, so you're using the actual stick itself.

00:43:48   - Also all new TVs and most boxes do airplay already.

00:43:53   So what would be the point?

00:43:55   Apple needs to make something that's differentiated

00:43:57   in some way that makes you go,

00:43:58   oh, well I'm gonna choose the Apple one because,

00:44:01   and I do think that there need to be apps on it, right?

00:44:04   all of the video apps and that whole video ecosystem

00:44:07   that they've built, I think makes sense.

00:44:10   That's what the competitors do.

00:44:12   So I don't think they're gonna do something

00:44:13   that's that simple because they've kind of solved

00:44:15   that problem by getting AirPlay compatibility

00:44:18   in so many devices.

00:44:21   So it really is, they really need to make something

00:44:23   like the Apple TV, but a lot cheaper than it is now.

00:44:27   - They could make something a lot smaller and cheaper

00:44:29   with less specs that still does everything

00:44:31   they need it to do.

00:44:32   - And you're right, they could pull out

00:44:33   some of the graphics they could pull out,

00:44:36   potentially they could pull out some of the home stuff.

00:44:38   I mean, there are lots of things that they could pull out.

00:44:40   I'm not sure how many of them they need to pull out.

00:44:42   The real challenge is they just need to make it

00:44:45   using parts that will allow them to sell it

00:44:47   for a lot cheaper.

00:44:48   That's what they need to do.

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00:46:42   Ming-Chi Kuo reported last week that Apple is planning

00:46:45   on replacing the lightning connector with USB-C

00:46:48   for the 2023 iPhone line.

00:46:51   Some time ago, Kuo said that this was something

00:46:55   that Apple was not looking at because of their,

00:46:58   they wanted to keep the MFI program

00:47:00   stacked, but he is now changing his guidance on this. It is not clear yet as to whether

00:47:05   this would be on only some models or the whole line initially or going into the future. Of

00:47:11   course Apple could possibly be doing this to stay ahead of regulation, especially in

00:47:15   the European Union, but USB-C is a connector that Apple uses on many of their devices at

00:47:20   this point, including those that run iPadOS. Mark Gurman followed up with a report in Bloomberg

00:47:27   saying that as well as working on the switch over to USB-C,

00:47:30   Apple is working on an adapter to allow for future iPhones

00:47:34   to work with previous lightning-based cables and accessories.

00:47:37   Everyone remembers the lightning to 30 pin

00:47:39   if you were around.

00:47:40   Mark also notes that this move obviously would lessen

00:47:45   Apple's control with the MFI program,

00:47:47   referring to Ming-Chi Kuo's previous report

00:47:50   that they didn't wanna let it go

00:47:51   because USB-C is an open standard, right?

00:47:53   So people could just make iPhone accessories.

00:47:55   - Apple owns lightning,

00:47:56   so they have to approve commercial products

00:47:58   that use the Lightning port.

00:47:59   - Yeah, yeah.

00:48:00   If, you know, obviously people find ways to get around it,

00:48:02   but they're not legally allowed to do that.

00:48:05   Ming-Chi Kuo then also followed up with another report.

00:48:08   - There's a real shootout at the rumor.

00:48:10   - Yeah, it's like pew, pew, pew.

00:48:11   They, he would expect AirPods, the keyboard, the mice,

00:48:15   and everything else that currently uses Lightning

00:48:18   to switch away at some point in the future,

00:48:20   meaning that USB-C is the current expectation

00:48:23   for Apple across everything.

00:48:25   quote also mentioned this idea of a portless iPhone

00:48:29   could still be some way away if ever,

00:48:31   quote, "Current limitations of wireless technologies

00:48:34   and the immature MagSafe ecosystem

00:48:37   would warrant that unlikely."

00:48:39   What do you think about all of this?

00:48:41   - It's time. - Yes.

00:48:42   - That's what I think, it's time.

00:48:44   Lightning, look, lightning was an Apple invented way

00:48:49   to get a better port because USB-A was bad

00:48:53   and they needed to move off of the 30 pin.

00:48:54   - And the 30 pin was worse.

00:48:55   - The 30 pin was worse. - They need to move off

00:48:56   of the 30 pin to something that would fit on a phone,

00:49:00   but the 30 pin was bad, and USB-C wasn't available yet,

00:49:03   so they made lightning.

00:49:04   - Do you remember when the 30 pin,

00:49:06   you used to have to squeeze the little things

00:49:08   on the side so you could safely disconnect it?

00:49:10   - Yeah, so Apple decided to do this,

00:49:12   and then the USB-C came out,

00:49:14   and it's like a sunk cost kind of thing

00:49:15   where Apple's like, well, no,

00:49:16   we already did our lightning thing,

00:49:17   we're gonna stick with it.

00:49:18   And there are things about lightning that are superior.

00:49:22   Some of the decisions they made, I think,

00:49:24   were made for the port to be more resilient.

00:49:26   The fact that it's like a little metal thing

00:49:30   that you stick into the port,

00:49:31   as opposed to USB-C where it's a round thing.

00:49:34   And in the port, there has to be a little,

00:49:36   it's like the lightning, it's like reversed.

00:49:38   The lightning port that you stick in.

00:49:40   On a USB-C device, it's got a little post

00:49:43   that's sticking out inside of that port.

00:49:45   And I can see how that, you know,

00:49:48   what I've heard is that lightning is more resilient

00:49:52   and it's maybe more water resistant and all these things.

00:49:56   However, it's over, like it's over.

00:49:59   And I know that a bunch of people were saying,

00:50:01   oh, everybody's gonna complain

00:50:02   that Apple keeps changing their formats, right?

00:50:04   Because for 10 years,

00:50:05   10 years they've been using Lightning

00:50:06   and now they're gonna change it.

00:50:07   Everybody's gonna like, I don't wanna buy new stuff.

00:50:09   Apple's just doing this.

00:50:11   The difference this time is Apple's not going

00:50:14   from a proprietary connector to a proprietary connector.

00:50:17   This time Apple's gonna go from a proprietary connector

00:50:20   to a standard connector.

00:50:21   And you know what?

00:50:22   USB-C is already everywhere and that's accelerating.

00:50:25   So in those hotels that offer USB-C and lightning,

00:50:30   if you got one of the new iPhones from 2023,

00:50:32   you'll just plug it into the USB-C one instead,

00:50:35   'cause there will be a USB-C one there.

00:50:37   'Cause USB-C is what everybody uses.

00:50:41   Now, there are some arguments about like the EU

00:50:43   saying everybody's gonna use USB-C

00:50:45   that I think are strong when you say,

00:50:47   how do we, we need to be able to innovate.

00:50:50   and if a Newport, you know,

00:50:51   if you had made this rule in the past,

00:50:53   we would have all been stuck on USB-A.

00:50:55   So you need to let us innovate.

00:50:57   But that said, everything uses USB-C.

00:50:59   I was, I can't tell you how delighted I was

00:51:01   when my new Kobo had USB-C on it,

00:51:04   when the Playdate had USB-C on it.

00:51:06   'Cause it was like, that's one less weird cable

00:51:09   that I have to bring with me in order to charge something.

00:51:12   So I, it is more, I mean, it's about time.

00:51:17   It should probably have happened sooner,

00:51:19   but it needs to happen and it needs to happen everywhere

00:51:21   'cause I still have those moments where I'm like,

00:51:24   oh, I need to charge this Magic Trackpad.

00:51:26   Oh, right, lightning on the Mac just for this, right?

00:51:29   Like just for this.

00:51:32   So yeah, change it all, go to USB-C,

00:51:35   make some adapters if you need to,

00:51:37   but we'll all get over it.

00:51:39   - Yeah, like I understand that people say what you said,

00:51:42   right, about the EU of like, oh, but like what if it's worse

00:51:47   or what if it's stifling innovation?

00:51:49   Fine, but right now I know that USB-C

00:51:53   would be my preferred over Lightning

00:51:56   because currently I have to take extra cables

00:51:59   in my bag for my iPhone.

00:52:02   Where I already have USB-C,

00:52:04   everything else that I'm working on.

00:52:06   And like USB-C cable's really easy to find

00:52:10   because so much stuff has USB-C now,

00:52:13   including like literally every other smartphone.

00:52:17   You know, like it, this worked perfectly fine before there was a

00:52:22   better connector, but like this USB-C will be the best connector for this

00:52:27   for like the next 10 to 15 years.

00:52:29   Then we'll work out that other part later on.

00:52:31   But for right now, like USB-C is the move.

00:52:34   And like, as someone pointed out in the chat, I forgot who it was

00:52:37   now, it's called by, uh, Tony.

00:52:39   Like Apple obviously had a hand in the creation of USB-C right.

00:52:43   Cause like it was the original connector for Thunderbolt.

00:52:46   - And they've embraced it everywhere else.

00:52:48   - It wasn't the original, but yeah,

00:52:49   they've embraced it everywhere.

00:52:50   And so like, then the idea is,

00:52:53   if there is to be a better port,

00:52:55   well, everyone should work together

00:52:56   and create that better port, right?

00:52:58   Rather than like, oh, now Apple's come up with better ports

00:53:01   and now they can make their accessories for their phones

00:53:03   that are benefiting them mainly for like the next 10 years.

00:53:07   Like, no, just all work together.

00:53:08   - I'm kind of skeptical that there will be a better port.

00:53:11   I think maybe there's gonna be a very, very, very long time

00:53:14   when people are just iterating on this plug with,

00:53:17   you know, don't get me wrong,

00:53:20   USB-C and Thunderbolt and all that,

00:53:21   they will still have 80 different confusing flavors

00:53:24   of whatever it is they're doing,

00:53:26   but they'll all probably be on this port

00:53:28   and that's probably okay.

00:53:30   And I was reminded of,

00:53:31   I was listening this weekend to ATP from last week

00:53:35   while I was mowing the lawn

00:53:36   and they were talking about the idea of

00:53:40   wiring your house for ethernet, which Casey is gonna do.

00:53:42   and the rate at which wireless technologies

00:53:47   will overcome the need for wired internet in your house,

00:53:52   wired ethernet in your house.

00:53:54   And I think about that a little bit with USB-C as well.

00:53:58   I do think that there will be alternatives,

00:54:02   both wireless and magnetic attachment

00:54:06   and things that Apple can work on,

00:54:08   which is sort of what Ming-Chi Kuo says here.

00:54:10   It's like, the dream is the portless iPhone,

00:54:12   but that's not anytime soon.

00:54:15   So, you know, keep working on that stuff.

00:54:18   But there are so many reasons

00:54:19   to have a physical connection on a device

00:54:22   because sometimes that's the only way

00:54:25   to get things on and off or do it quickly

00:54:27   or reset it or whatever.

00:54:29   And USB-C is the right answer there.

00:54:31   So the sooner the better.

00:54:32   - So we may say goodbye to the Lightning connector,

00:54:36   but for right now, we have to say goodbye to the iPod.

00:54:39   - I mean, we'll say goodbye to the Lightning connector,

00:54:42   but also we'll be saying hello to a nice dongle town era,

00:54:47   will we not?

00:54:48   - Back to dongle town.

00:54:49   - There's some more adapters in the future.

00:54:51   - Maybe they'll make a music dongle, I don't know,

00:54:53   but I don't.

00:54:54   (laughs)

00:54:55   - I hate, so, you know, I listen to enough podcasts

00:54:59   and I've been, you know, working in the backyard

00:55:02   and driving around the Bay Area,

00:55:03   so I've been listening to a lot of podcasts,

00:55:05   that all the ideas I had about things to say about the iPod,

00:55:08   I feel like other people have already said,

00:55:10   but I'm gonna say some of them anyway,

00:55:11   which is the iPod touch was discontinued.

00:55:14   The truth is the iPod died when the iPod classic

00:55:19   was discontinued because the iPod touch isn't an iPod.

00:55:23   It's an iOS device.

00:55:25   It's an iPhone.

00:55:25   It's a weird iOS transitional device.

00:55:29   - It's a breakthrough internet communicator

00:55:31   with iPod touch and controls.

00:55:33   You know what I mean?

00:55:33   - It's not, that's the iPhone.

00:55:35   This is just the version of the iPhone

00:55:36   that removed all the cellular stuff from it.

00:55:38   - I didn't say the phone.

00:55:39   I left the phone part out.

00:55:41   - Yeah, I know. - Just a two and a three.

00:55:42   - I know, but that was referring to the,

00:55:44   anyway, so yes, RIP to the name iPod,

00:55:50   but really the iPod died when the iPod Classic got removed.

00:55:54   That was the moment when the real iPod died.

00:55:56   The iPod Touch, people can have feelings about it

00:56:00   and that's great, but you know,

00:56:02   I feel like it's a lot less momentous

00:56:04   than when the iPod Classic was shut down.

00:56:07   - Yeah, but at least then it was like-

00:56:09   - The music lives on.

00:56:10   - They didn't do a big press release like goodbye to,

00:56:14   like now it's like, okay, it's done.

00:56:17   'Cause then there was still always this idea of like,

00:56:19   oh, maybe they'll make a new iPod one day,

00:56:21   but like, it doesn't feel like it now.

00:56:24   - No, it doesn't make sense.

00:56:26   It really doesn't make sense.

00:56:27   There are better devices to play audio than the iPod.

00:56:32   And so it doesn't really make sense for anybody anymore.

00:56:35   Other than the fact that the iPod touch

00:56:38   still had a role to play just as a cheap iOS-ish,

00:56:42   iOS device, but even there, I mean, it was good for kids,

00:56:47   but there's also like the iPad and the iPad mini,

00:56:51   and it's just, I see why they shut it down

00:56:56   and it makes sense,

00:56:57   and they hadn't updated it in a very long time.

00:56:59   The press release is super weird

00:57:01   because Apple can't bear to talk

00:57:06   about discontinuing a product,

00:57:08   their approach of always sort of like happy face

00:57:12   at all times is let's celebrate the music

00:57:15   and look at all these places that Apple still does music

00:57:17   because they can't bear to even lead with the idea

00:57:20   that like the last iPod is being laid to rest.

00:57:23   - The body at the press release doesn't even talk

00:57:26   about the fact that they're getting rid of the iPod touch.

00:57:29   - Not until the last like five words of the press release.

00:57:32   It is in the second level heading,

00:57:35   But even then they can't bear to say anything

00:57:36   other than available while supplies last.

00:57:39   They can't say then the reason supplies won't last longer

00:57:42   is that we're not making them anymore.

00:57:44   They can't bear to do that.

00:57:45   - This is so wildly popular,

00:57:47   we might sell out of stock.

00:57:49   - I don't understand 'cause I get a company like Apple

00:57:53   not wanting to admit defeat

00:57:56   about a product that failed, right?

00:57:58   Like they always turn it around and say,

00:58:03   It's not that the butterfly keyboard was bad,

00:58:05   it's that we listened to people

00:58:06   and we made a new keyboard that is gonna be great.

00:58:10   That's always what they do, right?

00:58:11   When they replace something that was a loser

00:58:13   with something that they're gonna take another shot at

00:58:15   is they don't say, "Well, that was a loser."

00:58:17   They say, "We made something even better."

00:58:19   And that's how they do it.

00:58:20   But that kind of pathology of like never admitting,

00:58:24   never show weakness,

00:58:25   never admit you ever did anything wrong,

00:58:28   when it's about a product that hasn't been updated in years

00:58:31   and is irrelevant and had a good run.

00:58:34   Like I don't have a problem with them pointing out

00:58:39   that it's, we've made this irrelevant

00:58:41   because we have music everywhere in our lineup

00:58:43   and it influences so much of what we do.

00:58:46   We have a service, we have the HomePod mini,

00:58:48   we have all our devices,

00:58:49   they're capable of high quality audio.

00:58:52   Like there's that story to tell and that's fine.

00:58:54   And the legacy of the iPod is a great story to tell.

00:58:57   I just don't get why they have this pathology

00:58:59   like no one admit that we shut down this product.

00:59:02   It's like, it's okay to say we've stopped making

00:59:06   the iPod touch and the final,

00:59:09   which is the final iPod while supplies last,

00:59:12   et cetera, et cetera.

00:59:13   And they can't say it.

00:59:15   I just, it's funny, but also frustrating.

00:59:20   Just say it, just be clear.

00:59:22   Just be clear about what's happening here

00:59:24   and they can't bear to do it.

00:59:25   It's so weird.

00:59:26   - Do you have any anecdotes or anything

00:59:29   you would wanna share?

00:59:30   I know you were at the original iPod announcement, right?

00:59:33   A very young Jason Snow is in the video.

00:59:35   - People spot me in the video.

00:59:37   - Yep. - Yeah, from 2001.

00:59:38   So super important product, basically saved Apple

00:59:43   along with the iMac.

00:59:46   The iMac gave them a more reasonable Mac

00:59:50   to appeal to people, but the iPod Halo effect,

00:59:53   which was the idea of the iPod being the first product,

00:59:58   the Apple product that people bought

01:00:00   and people had a positive experience with it

01:00:01   and it sort of turned them onto the Apple brand.

01:00:04   - I was one of those people, right?

01:00:05   I got an iPod mini and the rest is history.

01:00:08   - That was by far the most important thing

01:00:09   was that you needed to, I know it seems funny now,

01:00:11   but the Apple brand was kind of like nowhere.

01:00:14   So they needed to rehab the Apple brand.

01:00:16   And so you put these three things together in that period,

01:00:19   which is the release of the iMac,

01:00:21   the release of the iPod,

01:00:23   and Apple retail.

01:00:24   And what you get is the Apple retail means

01:00:29   they're very positioned to sell iPods,

01:00:31   but they're also getting people in stores

01:00:33   who are now predisposed to like Apple

01:00:36   because they like their iPod

01:00:37   and the Mac is in the Apple store too.

01:00:40   And people are like, oh, and there's that iMac.

01:00:43   And people who have previously used PCs

01:00:45   and they're like, well, I love my iPod.

01:00:47   Apple makes a computer too.

01:00:50   Maybe I should actually look at that.

01:00:52   Would that work better with my iPod?

01:00:53   I don't really love my PC.

01:00:55   It was the thing that saved Apple, those three things.

01:00:58   But the iPod rehabbing the Apple brand was super important.

01:01:01   So it was a very important product and yet so ephemeral.

01:01:03   If you look at the iPhone being introduced in 2007,

01:01:08   iPod sales went down.

01:01:10   It took a little while for the iPhone,

01:01:12   and smartphones in general to kind of scale up,

01:01:14   but it's a very short-lived phenomenon.

01:01:17   It's like a decade of iPod.

01:01:19   And now it's a step along the way to Apple and the iPhone.

01:01:24   And I've said this before about the personal computer

01:01:29   industry, that in some ways you look back at the personal

01:01:31   computer industry and from our perspective now,

01:01:35   it looks like it's just sort of the run up to the smartphone

01:01:38   in a way, which we didn't know at the time obviously,

01:01:40   but now it seems kind of logical.

01:01:43   The iPod is a little like that where we weren't at the final

01:01:47   form yet, but it was the one that got us closer than we'd ever been before. And, you know,

01:01:53   there's a joke in the first episode of the reboot of Doctor Who in 2005, where a character

01:01:59   from 3 billion years in the future, you know, refers to a jukebox and says this was, according

01:02:04   to these notes, this was from the 21st century and was called an iPod. And I think it's really

01:02:10   funny because that joke hits way different now, because now it's sort of like, you know,

01:02:15   absolute music things, whatever. Whereas at the time the iPod was huge and it was funny

01:02:19   that somebody would confuse it with a jukebox. But now I think showing how knowing that reference

01:02:26   really was.

01:02:27   That's a good joke. That's a really good joke.

01:02:29   I think it's even better now because now it's just jukeboxes, iPods, these are all outmoded

01:02:34   music things from the past. So the iPod saved Apple, no doubt about it. It was a huge product

01:02:40   for a relatively short period of time and allowed Apple to make the, you know, to bring

01:02:48   back the Mac and to make the iPhone and to be the company that it is now. But I covered

01:02:53   it all and that was the thing that struck me last week's episode of Connected. You guys

01:02:57   did a tier list of iPods and I can and have quibbled with some of the choices. Also, I

01:03:05   don't like how you guys-

01:03:06   We've had no feedback.

01:03:08   It's been a perfectly accepted.

01:03:09   - Yeah, I know everybody else liked it.

01:03:10   Why am I not on board?

01:03:12   Also you guys super caved on Federico

01:03:14   and gave him way more power over that list

01:03:16   than you should have.

01:03:17   But my point- - No, no, no, no, no,

01:03:18   I never caved.

01:03:19   I either agreed to Federico or I gave him one

01:03:22   when I wanted one in return.

01:03:23   I was no caving to me. - All right,

01:03:24   you're just a very savvy politician.

01:03:25   Okay, but here's what I wanted to say about it

01:03:27   because I can complain about some of your choices,

01:03:30   but it's not really relevant.

01:03:32   Everybody's choices are their own.

01:03:33   What I wanted to say is,

01:03:35   it struck me how different you guys view the iPod

01:03:38   as people who were young when the iPod came out

01:03:41   and were like super excited and attached to different iPods

01:03:44   that were your first Apple product or, you know,

01:03:46   Steven, for example, likes that awful third generation iPod.

01:03:50   - He's just got nostalgia issues.

01:03:51   - But it's the one, that was the one he had.

01:03:53   And so he loves it because he had it.

01:03:55   And that's my point here is that I was covering Apple

01:03:59   when the iPod happened.

01:04:01   You know, the iPod was announced and I was, you know,

01:04:05   30, a 30 year old magazine writer and editor

01:04:10   and the whole run of the iPod, I was covering them

01:04:14   and we were getting them in turn and writing stories

01:04:16   about them and writing reviews of them

01:04:17   and comparing them to the previous generation

01:04:19   and being right.

01:04:20   So I don't have the perspective of somebody who got one

01:04:23   and it's like, oh, finally I've got one and I love it

01:04:26   and I keep it for, you know, for years

01:04:28   and I put stickers on it and all that.

01:04:30   That was not my experience.

01:04:31   My experience was, well, this third generation iPod

01:04:34   is a UI disaster.

01:04:36   And it was, but like, again,

01:04:39   if you have an emotional attachment to it,

01:04:42   that doesn't matter.

01:04:42   And so it just struck me as a very different

01:04:45   kind of product that I have nostalgia for,

01:04:47   but it's of a different kind

01:04:49   because I was watching Apple as a business,

01:04:52   issuing all the different versions

01:04:53   and we were writing stories about them

01:04:55   and seeing how they were developing

01:04:56   and honestly seeing how it changed the fortunes

01:04:58   of the company that we were covering too,

01:05:02   'cause that was a big deal.

01:05:03   There were a lot of Mac world readers who were unhappy

01:05:05   that there was so much iPod coverage.

01:05:07   'Cause it's like, what can you even say about it?

01:05:08   It just plays music.

01:05:09   Write more about the Mac.

01:05:10   And we're like, guys, people really like the iPod.

01:05:13   - There's more to say.

01:05:15   They release lots of iPods.

01:05:15   - Put the iPod on the cover every month if you can.

01:05:19   People like them.

01:05:20   Yeah.

01:05:20   - Just to state on this idea of giving Federico control.

01:05:24   The only four S-tier iPods are my four favorite iPods.

01:05:29   - I'm just saying you guys thought that his choice

01:05:33   of the last Nano, which is a joke of a product

01:05:35   that was trying to pretend to be, it was like iPhone.

01:05:38   iPhone, really iPhone.

01:05:40   And it's like, you're not an iPhone.

01:05:42   You're like the bizarro Superman, right?

01:05:45   You look kind of like an iPhone if I am not paying attention

01:05:49   but then I look and you are not an iPhone friend.

01:05:52   And you guys are like saying the right things.

01:05:54   was like, "Whoa, that's really bad."

01:05:55   And Federico was like, "No, I think it's good."

01:05:57   And as the, not a draft, the tiering went along,

01:06:02   it just kept, like he got you guys to slide it up one space

01:06:05   and then later on he got you to slide it up another space.

01:06:09   - That one Federico that got moved is the little square one.

01:06:13   - No, I thought it was, well, the little one

01:06:15   that you could wear as a watch, right?

01:06:17   - Yeah, that got moved up to B.

01:06:19   It was previously in C and Federico got me what I wanted,

01:06:23   which was the original Nano in S.

01:06:25   So I said, well, let's move yours up to B.

01:06:27   That was pure politicking.

01:06:29   - I get what you were doing.

01:06:29   I just think that he,

01:06:32   there's some bad iPods that got higher rankings

01:06:34   because you were willing to sacrifice the integrity

01:06:37   in order to get yours.

01:06:38   - 'Cause I wanted to puppet master the S tier.

01:06:40   - Well, that, I guess you did,

01:06:42   but I still think he got away with some stuff.

01:06:44   Anyway, I think it was a fun exercise,

01:06:47   even though you're all wrong.

01:06:48   And, but the big thing was just that it struck me

01:06:51   how your perspective on the iPod,

01:06:53   and this is true of everything, right?

01:06:54   But especially in this context of the iPod

01:06:58   is based on sort of like where you were

01:07:01   and how you interacted with it at the beginning.

01:07:04   And for me, the iPod will always be,

01:07:08   it was a great product and it really transformed

01:07:10   how people thought of Apple,

01:07:11   but it was not my gateway product to Apple.

01:07:14   And so I will always have a very different

01:07:16   kind of emotional connection to the iPod

01:07:19   than somebody for whom the iPod was the thing that made them kind of like their eyes sparkle

01:07:24   and be like, "Oh, technology, right? That wasn't it for me."

01:07:28   me.

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01:09:35   Jason, now are you ready for some hashtag ask upgrade questions?

01:09:40   First comes from Nathan.

01:09:42   This is relating to what we were just talking about.

01:09:44   I had to give you an answer and do the lasers.

01:09:46   It was very complicated.

01:09:47   - Yeah, I wondered which one you were gonna choose first.

01:09:50   So Nathan says, "Do you think Apple would reuse

01:09:55   the iPod brand for something like a portable speaker,

01:09:58   something similar to a Sonos Roam or Move

01:10:00   or something like that?"

01:10:01   - You know, I have always been kind of like on the fence

01:10:05   about Apple reusing the iPod brand.

01:10:07   You know, I thought it was possible

01:10:09   they have reused a bunch of stuff.

01:10:11   I will tell you that with that weird press release last week,

01:10:16   it's never coming back.

01:10:18   - Oh, you think it's done zone now?

01:10:20   - I think that was them putting, you know,

01:10:23   literally there, even though they didn't talk about it,

01:10:26   that's the funeral for the iPad brand.

01:10:28   Also, I would say they already brought back the iPod brand.

01:10:32   It's called the HomePod brand, right?

01:10:34   - Yeah. - Like they have repurposed,

01:10:36   'cause again, products with that eye,

01:10:39   like they can't get rid of the iPhone and the iPad

01:10:41   because they're just so indelible.

01:10:43   But like iPod, I don't think that they're gonna retire it.

01:10:46   I don't think you retire a product

01:10:48   and then bring it back with the iName.

01:10:49   Like you keep the iName on it if it's still selling

01:10:53   and it's everybody knows what it is,

01:10:55   but you don't come up with a new product

01:10:57   that is reusing it.

01:11:00   Like iBook became iBooks, but you know,

01:11:03   now it's just Apple Books

01:11:04   because they don't do that anymore.

01:11:06   They just don't do that anymore.

01:11:07   So I don't think it'll come back.

01:11:09   I think HomePod is Apple's attempt to get

01:11:12   some of the magic of the iPod name in a different product.

01:11:15   And I'm not sure Apple will make something

01:11:19   like a portable speaker.

01:11:20   That seems a little far afield.

01:11:22   There are a million of them, although, you know, maybe,

01:11:24   but even then I just have a hard time seeing them

01:11:27   bringing that name back.

01:11:29   - They would call that the HomePod something anyway, right?

01:11:31   - HomePod Rome, HomePod mini.

01:11:34   - HomePod Go. - They already have that.

01:11:35   HomePod Go, yeah.

01:11:37   I think that's more likely, yeah.

01:11:40   - Yeah, I honestly feel like Apple's kind of embarrassed

01:11:44   about the i name, even in all of their products.

01:11:47   It is a, I don't know, like nearly 30 year old idea, right?

01:11:52   Like, hey, the internet's gonna be a thing, right?

01:11:56   Because every product that they release now

01:11:58   has an Apple logo as part of the name.

01:12:01   That's what they want it to be, right?

01:12:03   They wanna call it the Apple something, not the i something.

01:12:06   - Exactly.

01:12:07   - And so I don't think that's something they want to do.

01:12:10   Martin asks, "Where do you think,"

01:12:12   this is an incredibly complicated question,

01:12:14   but I wanted to talk about it.

01:12:15   "Where do you think the line is between an electronic device

01:12:18   being just that, an electronic device,

01:12:21   and one that has to be legally bound

01:12:23   to be an open platform?

01:12:24   For example, Apple don't have to include an NFC chip

01:12:28   in their iPhones, but if they do,

01:12:30   it needs to be available to anyone,"

01:12:32   referring to a recent EU kind of decision or draft decision.

01:12:36   But this is like, we spoke about this before,

01:12:38   like this idea for a platform to be open,

01:12:42   for a product to be open.

01:12:44   Do you have a line that you think something like this

01:12:48   crosses where it goes from being closed to open?

01:12:53   - I don't know, it has to do with power.

01:12:55   And like, I think the idea here is that you want to let

01:13:02   companies innovate and create the products

01:13:05   that they need to create and have them not have to bear

01:13:08   the additional burden of being, right?

01:13:11   It's different to build a feature than it is to build

01:13:13   an API for third parties that maybe you're also using.

01:13:17   It's a different thing.

01:13:18   And Apple's approach is generally they build the feature

01:13:23   and then maybe later they let the third parties

01:13:26   connect to the feature, but they build the feature.

01:13:29   The problem is when Apple or any other company

01:13:32   has so much power and control in a market

01:13:35   that they, that by doing this,

01:13:40   they are also just eliminating all the competition.

01:13:44   So there's no, you know, there's no one line to draw.

01:13:48   There's way too many different inputs

01:13:51   in order to get to the output.

01:13:52   I think it's a difficult question

01:13:53   because I think you wanna protect consumers,

01:13:55   but you also wanna protect the companies

01:13:57   that are investing in the products

01:13:58   that are doing the innovating. And every single one of them is going to be a judgment call.

01:14:04   Like if you said Apple, like you could say, well, Apple is too powerful, so it can't include

01:14:10   its own apps on the iPhone anymore. All iPhones must just come with an empty shell. Like that

01:14:17   would be terrible, right? That would be terrible for people buying iPhones because they wouldn't

01:14:22   work. And then you would have to go find an app store and like it would be it would be

01:14:26   really bad. At the same time, we've had lots of discussions here about ways that Apple

01:14:31   has abused its power regarding the App Store. So the NFC chip, you know, it's another one

01:14:36   of those things. Like the truth is the NFC chip is only really relevant because Apple

01:14:41   made it so in so many different ways, especially in the US and especially in terms of all the

01:14:46   electronic payment stuff that really didn't take off, especially in the US, until Apple

01:14:50   Pay came along. So, you know, they created it and now maybe they need to open it up a

01:14:55   a little bit, but I mean that's my answer,

01:14:58   which is basically I refuse to answer.

01:15:00   There isn't one line.

01:15:01   - So I have a bunch of components,

01:15:05   which I think somebody could create a formula out of,

01:15:07   but it's not me, right?

01:15:09   So I think that there's a set of ingredients here

01:15:12   for when something goes from being just like,

01:15:14   "Hey, it's this thing that we make,

01:15:15   "and we control it to now,

01:15:18   "we have to give it something to control."

01:15:20   So there is like a size in the amount of units that you sell,

01:15:25   I think you get to a certain point where you've sold such an obscene number that they're everywhere.

01:15:29   Prominence, so like when if you also have like an outsized impact on the market.

01:15:35   If something becomes intrinsic to society in some way, so like the really the only computer devices

01:15:43   that have done this are the personal computer and the smartphone. I can't think of another one.

01:15:49   And then the biggest thing for me when it relates to Apple is if you have gotten to a point where

01:15:58   you as the device maker are making money from the device in ways that aren't the sale of the device,

01:16:06   so services, from a closed platform that you control, so you control the platform and you're

01:16:13   you're making money from the services whilst also making money, obscene amounts of money

01:16:18   from the sale of the device. Right? Like you're already making so much money from selling

01:16:25   the devices that you don't need to make any more money, right? Like you're making all

01:16:29   the money. But yet now you've also decided you're going to make money from services on

01:16:34   that platform while also locking that platform down and giving your services preferential

01:16:40   treatment. At that point, which is a point that Apple have passed, you have to open it

01:16:46   up. That's my feeling. Like for me, is that last part, which is the biggest one, because

01:16:51   people will say, what about PlayStation? What about Xbox? And like, I don't think the PlayStation

01:16:56   or the Xbox meet these criteria. And like, this is what I feel is the criteria. And I

01:17:02   think of everything out there. The iPhone is really the only product that hits this.

01:17:08   - I don't agree that anything should be done based on

01:17:11   whether a product that they sell is profitable or not

01:17:14   with their profit margins.

01:17:16   I just don't agree.

01:17:17   I think that that is not the way to do it.

01:17:20   I don't think saying,

01:17:21   I don't think constructing a test

01:17:23   that excludes game consoles,

01:17:26   but includes the iPhone because it has profit margins is,

01:17:30   I would not advocate for something like that

01:17:33   because I think the principle stands either way.

01:17:35   Either power and control and removing competition

01:17:40   should matter regardless of whether,

01:17:44   like just saying, "Oh no, no, we make our game consoles,

01:17:47   "we lose money on every one,

01:17:48   "and that's why we have eliminated all competition."

01:17:52   So it's okay that we've eliminated all competition.

01:17:54   I don't think that's--

01:17:55   - But competition hasn't been eliminated

01:17:57   in the game console market.

01:17:58   There's more competition in the game console market now

01:18:00   than there's ever been.

01:18:02   - Between consoles, but not,

01:18:04   I don't have access to Sony's store or to Sony's hardware

01:18:09   without going through their store and paying their fee.

01:18:14   And likewise with Microsoft.

01:18:15   And this is Microsoft's argument too, right?

01:18:17   It's like, well, we believe in open markets

01:18:19   except for the Xbox, but maybe they're later, but not yet.

01:18:22   - Yeah, okay.

01:18:23   I understand what you're saying.

01:18:23   - I think that's the thing to hide behind

01:18:27   because again, try to imagine governments

01:18:29   and regulators saying, what's your profit margin?

01:18:32   If you're taking more margin above this point

01:18:36   with your hardware, then the rules all change for you.

01:18:39   But if you don't, if you're giving them away

01:18:42   and then making money on the product,

01:18:44   'cause then you're just sort of saying,

01:18:45   we have different rules

01:18:46   for different companies' business models.

01:18:48   And I don't think that's the right way to view this.

01:18:50   I think the right way to view this is exerting your power

01:18:53   in certain areas over to eliminate all competition

01:18:58   in other areas.

01:19:00   - So do you believe then that the PlayStation 5

01:19:03   should be an open platform?

01:19:04   - I believe that if Apple has to open its platform,

01:19:11   so does Sony.

01:19:13   That's what I believe.

01:19:14   - To what?

01:19:15   - I believe that you either open closed platforms

01:19:19   or you don't.

01:19:20   - But like open them to what?

01:19:21   Like what are they being opened to?

01:19:23   - I mean, that's the question, right?

01:19:24   It's like, well, so let me put it this way.

01:19:26   If the EU said Apple,

01:19:27   you have to offer alternative app stores.

01:19:31   Alternative app stores have to be in your store

01:19:34   where software can be downloaded from other vendors

01:19:36   using money that you never see, and you have to do it.

01:19:40   The game consoles should be subject to the exact same rules

01:19:44   because if that's the rule, that's the rule.

01:19:47   And I don't think it matters that Sony would say,

01:19:49   oh, but we don't, 'cause you know,

01:19:51   the response would be, all right,

01:19:52   I guess we're gonna sell our game consoles

01:19:54   at a higher profit margin then since we can't do this

01:19:59   and their business model would change.

01:20:00   But I think you can't say access for some

01:20:02   but not for the rest that are doing more or less

01:20:05   the same things in terms of having

01:20:07   an entirely closed platform.

01:20:08   - Yeah, I don't disagree with that.

01:20:09   Like if we're just talking about the app stores part,

01:20:13   like I think that the Epic game store should be available

01:20:15   on Xbox for example because like then you look at like,

01:20:19   well, 'cause here's the thing, like if that happened, right,

01:20:22   So now they're like, "Oh, game console makers,

01:20:27   you have to allow for the Epic Game Store

01:20:29   to be on your platform as well as your own."

01:20:31   Then it's a business model thing,

01:20:33   'cause like Microsoft have already worked it out

01:20:35   by offering Game Pass, right?

01:20:36   So like that's like a new business model

01:20:38   and like Sony's like just bumbling around out there

01:20:41   trying to work out some kind of subscription plan,

01:20:43   which is terrible.

01:20:44   So like then it's like, well, you've then got to make

01:20:46   like the Microsoft store a place you want to go to

01:20:49   and like Microsoft has done that by offering Game Pass,

01:20:51   So then they can let the Epic Games Store in and they've made their smart business move.

01:20:55   To go back to what you were saying about like, if you've decided you don't want to make money on your console sales,

01:21:02   you've got to make, then that can still be something you want to do, but you've got to come up with other ways to make money in the place where you would then be open.

01:21:09   My point more is hinging, I agree with you, my point more is hinging on like,

01:21:13   this idea of the

01:21:16   of it being you've got all of this stuff going on

01:21:20   plus your hardware the product that you make

01:21:23   is considered important to society where I would argue that

01:21:27   as much as I love games the Xbox is not important to society

01:21:31   right so I just think that it does it doesn't come with this

01:21:34   from my perspective the same level of like

01:21:37   you are now controlling something which is intrinsic to society

01:21:41   and making tons of money on it.

01:21:43   - And that's a power argument, right?

01:21:45   I would say that that's the power argument

01:21:46   and not how much money they're making on it.

01:21:48   Like, I think the argument is not the iPhone

01:21:50   needs to be regulated because it's important,

01:21:52   or because Apple is making a lot of money

01:21:54   on every iPhone it sells.

01:21:56   It's the iPhone and Android need to be regulated

01:21:59   because they're the only two choices

01:22:01   and everybody basically needs a smartphone.

01:22:04   And so the amount of power that's exerted, people,

01:22:06   you know, companies can't not compete in those markets

01:22:09   even if they are kind of rigged for the platform owner,

01:22:13   that platform owner is gonna just eat

01:22:15   huge amounts of money regardless

01:22:17   and you can't get around it.

01:22:18   That's the power argument, right?

01:22:20   And I think in terms of Martin's original question here

01:22:22   about the NFC access,

01:22:25   I think a good model for a lot of this

01:22:27   is let companies innovate

01:22:29   and when the thing that they're innovating on

01:22:31   becomes successful, have them open it up.

01:22:34   And if they won't open it up themselves,

01:22:36   the regulator comes in and says,

01:22:37   well, now that you've established this and it's successful,

01:22:40   you need to have competition.

01:22:43   And ideally you would have a way to do that

01:22:45   that would not dissuade the innovation.

01:22:48   And the truth is a lot of these companies

01:22:51   as platform owners, they're gonna have the upper hand

01:22:54   even in an open competition environment

01:22:56   because they're the platform owners.

01:22:58   And that's a huge home field advantage.

01:23:01   But what you don't wanna do is make it

01:23:03   that you can't innovate without immediately

01:23:06   giving it to everybody.

01:23:07   because then what's the motivation to innovate?

01:23:09   You distort the incentives that these things have.

01:23:13   - Yeah, I think the innovation part come,

01:23:16   sorry, the opening up comes later.

01:23:19   So with the NFC chip, I do think now's the right time.

01:23:22   Right, like Apple have gone out and proven

01:23:25   for their platform that like having a wallet app

01:23:27   which has access to NFC and you can put your card apps

01:23:29   in it and stuff, and like that's great.

01:23:31   But like I do believe that you've proven it now.

01:23:35   you can't just keep benefiting from this completely yourself.

01:23:39   Like you can't just keep reaping the spoils.

01:23:42   - And if somebody can do it better than Apple.

01:23:44   - They should be allowed to.

01:23:46   - Then they should be allowed to.

01:23:47   But the flip side of that is,

01:23:49   if you're gonna come in with something that's crappy

01:23:53   and say, oh no, our customers are gonna use this app

01:23:57   that we did instead of what Apple's doing and it's bad,

01:24:01   then you're gonna be punished

01:24:03   because you have a bad experience, right?

01:24:04   Both of those things are true.

01:24:06   It's funny to use wallet as an example

01:24:09   'cause I think wallet's actually

01:24:10   a pretty good Apple implementation.

01:24:13   And when Apple does a good job,

01:24:15   yes, the barrier to competition is gonna be higher.

01:24:17   I'm okay with that.

01:24:19   The advantage of the competition

01:24:21   is that sometimes Apple doesn't do a very good job.

01:24:24   And it will potentially drive Apple to pay more attention

01:24:30   and make their product better

01:24:31   because there will be alternatives that people will select.

01:24:34   - Mm-hmm.

01:24:35   I don't really know if we came to an answer

01:24:39   on that question, but I think we did.

01:24:40   I think we got there in the end, right?

01:24:42   I think we're both pretty much on the same page.

01:24:43   - Like I said, there is no line.

01:24:44   It's complicated.

01:24:45   - No, and like, I know people don't like this thing,

01:24:47   but there is that like,

01:24:48   know it when you see it kind of thing.

01:24:50   I don't think this is a simple, like I said,

01:24:52   I don't think you can make like a simple formula,

01:24:54   but that gets to a certain point where it's like,

01:24:58   you can't just,

01:25:00   You know, I feel like you can't be so prevalent in the world

01:25:04   and then just, like, you know, you're doing so,

01:25:07   you've made this device, everybody has one,

01:25:10   and you can't just keep like,

01:25:11   all right, we're just gonna keep all of this for ourselves.

01:25:15   Because as well, like, it doesn't benefit the customer,

01:25:17   right, as you say, right?

01:25:18   Like if someone can come along and make a better wallet app,

01:25:22   then shouldn't I, as a user of this platform,

01:25:24   have that ability to make that choice?

01:25:27   But at the moment, the answer for a lot of this stuff

01:25:30   is no.

01:25:31   Last one today, Jonathan asks, "With exposure notifications, the Matter Alliance, and now

01:25:37   Fido, which is that passwords thing we were talking about last time, we're seeing more

01:25:41   collaboration between the top tech companies.

01:25:44   Do you think this is a trend we will continue to see?"

01:25:48   I think we'll see it.

01:25:50   I think both trends will continue, right?

01:25:52   I think there are places where when the land rush is over, everybody realizes that now

01:25:59   the benefit moving forward is to work together on interoperability. And so the home stuff

01:26:04   is a great example where everybody tried to own it, and then in the end they realized,

01:26:08   well, this is how it's going to be. Nobody's going to own this. We really need to interact

01:26:13   if, you know, and interoperate if we're going to push this thing forward. So I think we'll

01:26:18   still see some of that. And we'll see places where everybody's going off on their own.

01:26:24   I think we saw in the smartphone,

01:26:26   beginning of the smartphone era,

01:26:28   a pretty unique circumstance where there was just

01:26:29   a huge land rush in so many different ways

01:26:32   that everybody was just trying to get there first

01:26:34   and get that first mover advantage, as they say,

01:26:36   and like end up with a big,

01:26:40   knowing that the clamps are gonna come down at some point,

01:26:43   they want the biggest piece of pie before that happens

01:26:46   so that they can like be defending their 40% of market

01:26:49   or 80% of market share or whatever it is.

01:26:51   It's more mature now, so there's gonna be less of that.

01:26:54   but I'm sure it'll pop up in some other area.

01:26:56   But like, yeah, if you're doing,

01:26:58   you're Microsoft and Google and Apple,

01:26:59   the only way that password things are gonna work

01:27:02   is by you all working together.

01:27:05   And I don't know, I think that even with all the competition

01:27:10   that's out there, if you look at something

01:27:11   like the OS vendors, I don't know,

01:27:13   does it really feel like they're at war with one another?

01:27:16   It kind of doesn't.

01:27:17   So it makes sense.

01:27:19   - Yeah, I think that like this also actually relates

01:27:24   a little bit to the previous question, where I think a lot of tech companies are really

01:27:27   keen to work with others now, if it makes things that aren't incredibly important to

01:27:33   their core business to be like, "Hey, but look, we work together all the time. We're

01:27:40   all in this together, you know? We love to work together."

01:27:45   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, just send out a

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01:27:56   Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up for $5 a month or $50 a year.

01:28:01   And you will get ad free episodes with bonus content every single week.

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01:28:14   Our thanks to Squarespace, Sourcegraph and Things for the support of this episode.

01:28:18   Thanks to you for listening.

01:28:20   thanks to our members who support us every single week.

01:28:24   And thank you to Jason Snell for joining me as always.

01:28:27   You can find Jason online, is it sixcolors.com?

01:28:30   What's funny about that?

01:28:31   You thought I got lost?

01:28:32   Yeah, you can tell I got lost. - Yep, a little bit.

01:28:34   - Yeah, I was trying out something new, right?

01:28:36   And then I got lost, you know?

01:28:38   So, and indeed, Jason is @jasonll on Twitter, J-S-N-E-L-L.

01:28:43   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:28:46   We'll be back next week,

01:28:47   as we are really heart-linked with WWDC.

01:28:51   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:28:53   - It's Jason Snell here and Myke Hurley is over there

01:28:57   and we're both saying goodbye now and so goodbye.

01:28:59   - Oh I see what you're doing, yeah okay, fine.

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