406: Are You Phishing Me Right Now?


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00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:03   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 406.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod,

00:00:15   Bombas, and Capital One.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:19   Hi, Jason.

00:00:20   - Hi, Myke, how are you?

00:00:21   - I'm very well, my friend, very well indeed.

00:00:23   I have a #snowtalk question for you.

00:00:25   It comes from Nathan.

00:00:27   Nathan wants to know,

00:00:28   do you remember the first photo you took with an iPhone?

00:00:31   - I, well, I mean, the honest answer is no,

00:00:35   but I looked it up.

00:00:36   - Yeah, that's what I hoped you would do.

00:00:39   - Yeah, and so the answer is,

00:00:41   and I have told the version of this story before,

00:00:44   I wrote my review of the original iPhone

00:00:46   in a tent up in the mountains,

00:00:48   and I had to actually drive downhill

00:00:50   in order to get a cellular connection

00:00:52   so that I could send my review back,

00:00:53   because we had no cell connection at the place

00:00:58   where I was writing the review of the iPhone,

00:01:00   which was hilarious.

00:01:01   So to get there, you've got to drive from the Bay Area

00:01:05   up through the Central Valley

00:01:09   and then up through the foothills

00:01:10   and you get up into the mountains

00:01:12   and to the camp where we went.

00:01:13   So Lauren drove that whole way

00:01:17   and I sat in the passenger seat

00:01:19   and did as many things as I could do with the iPhone

00:01:21   that required the cellular network

00:01:23   as I possibly could before we got up to the high parts of the mountains where there was

00:01:28   no cellular connection. Along with that, I took a bunch of pictures. And in fact, I found

00:01:32   in my photo library a photo that is the earliest photo taken on an iPhone. It is marked as

00:01:38   image_0002. My guess is I took another image that was nothing or bad or didn't make any

00:01:46   sense. But all of the images starting there are of my family. It's my son strapped in

00:01:53   in a car seat and my wife driving

00:01:55   and then my daughter sitting in the back seat

00:01:58   as we take our trip, my son's got his sippy cup.

00:02:04   There's a picture of traffic out the front windshield.

00:02:08   - Perfect.

00:02:09   - So that's the first stuff I took,

00:02:12   first photos I took with the iPhone

00:02:13   are all of my family in the car driving to the place

00:02:16   where we were going to camp for a week.

00:02:19   And then I was using that as some of my data points

00:02:24   for my iPhone review.

00:02:25   - I have no idea what the answer is for me.

00:02:29   I have kind of pre-2000 and something.

00:02:34   There is, all of my photos are on a drive somewhere.

00:02:38   I don't know where this drive is.

00:02:39   I never have it at home somewhere.

00:02:40   I just gotta dig it out and do something with it.

00:02:43   It's like, I understand that it might make some people

00:02:45   recoil in horror, but it's just like photos

00:02:48   I don't care about.

00:02:48   Like I really don't care about them.

00:02:51   So there's just, there is a number of years

00:02:53   where I just don't have those pictures in anywhere reliable.

00:02:57   But you know, so I have no, I can't answer this question

00:03:00   'cause all of my, the original,

00:03:04   like the earliest set of photos that I have

00:03:06   on my, in my photo library start in,

00:03:10   let me check when this is, 2013.

00:03:16   The rest are somewhere else one day.

00:03:21   I will do something with them.

00:03:22   - I have in my photo library, it's funny.

00:03:24   I have a scattering of photos before 2001,

00:03:29   but that was when we bought a digital camera.

00:03:31   It was in the fall of 2001.

00:03:34   And that's when the onslaught of photos begins.

00:03:38   Although it leads, it's funny,

00:03:40   it leads to this different era.

00:03:43   So the first author is the era before digital photography

00:03:46   where I've scanned some of those in

00:03:47   and I keep meaning to gather up basically

00:03:51   like all my old negatives and have somebody scan them all

00:03:54   just so that I can have those.

00:03:56   'Cause there's this era of film cameras

00:03:58   where you didn't take a camera with you everywhere

00:04:01   and you didn't take very many shots

00:04:02   'cause you had to get them delivered or developed

00:04:05   and then you had to go get them.

00:04:06   And then even if you got them,

00:04:08   they're not in your digital shoebox, right?

00:04:11   So that's an era.

00:04:12   What I didn't understand

00:04:13   when we bought our first digital cameras,

00:04:14   we were entering another era, which is the era

00:04:17   when you had to take pictures with your digital camera

00:04:20   and you didn't have a smartphone with you.

00:04:23   And so it's all of those pictures we took

00:04:27   are in my library, but they're not as consistent

00:04:32   because I didn't have a camera with me everywhere, right?

00:04:35   It was still sort of taking, I can take more pictures now

00:04:37   because the concept of the cost of taking a picture

00:04:42   is way less when you've got a digital camera.

00:04:45   And then there's this little tiny window

00:04:46   where it's smartphone pictures without geotagging.

00:04:49   And I find myself being like,

00:04:52   I know I took this picture here,

00:04:53   why does it say there are no pictures here?

00:04:55   And it turns out it's from before

00:04:56   they did geotagging in photos.

00:04:58   So I can't search based on its location.

00:05:01   And then there's the modern era,

00:05:02   which is everybody's got a smartphone,

00:05:04   all the pictures are geotagged,

00:05:06   and that's the modern era.

00:05:08   So, but my, yeah, my library starts in 2001,

00:05:11   where we bought a digital camera and then it just explodes.

00:05:14   That's, and then like the past before that is just

00:05:17   a mystery essentially.

00:05:20   Like I feel bad about it

00:05:22   'cause I know that I've got some photos around,

00:05:24   but it's almost as if the photos before then,

00:05:26   other than the few that I scanned in just don't exist.

00:05:29   Our friend John Siracusa every now and then

00:05:31   in a Slack that we're in with him,

00:05:33   he'll post a picture from the past

00:05:35   and I can tell that John's still scanning in old film,

00:05:38   very slowly scanning in all of his old film

00:05:41   to be like, "Hey, here's a picture of my computer from the 90s." And I have some of those too.

00:05:45   - What else has he got to do these days, you know what I mean?

00:05:48   - Yeah, we also have some family like slides from Lauren's family and I want to just send

00:05:53   them out and have them scanned and then, you know, and then I'll throw them away. I just,

00:05:58   because I don't want them, but I also don't want to throw them away. I feel like we need

00:06:01   to actually have them scanned in. So I'll get to it at some point.

00:06:06   If you would like to send in a question to help us open an episode of Upgrade, just like Nathan did, just send out a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk or use question mark snow talk in the Relay FM members discord.

00:06:17   Please send some in, help us start out an episode of Upgrade. It could be about whatever you want.

00:06:22   So as we are recording today, it is May 9th, 2022, we are exactly one month from WWDC.

00:06:31   - In 24 weeks. - Sure.

00:06:34   - I mean, WWDC will, on June 9th,

00:06:36   it'll be the Thursday of WWDC.

00:06:38   - Why do I keep doing this stuff?

00:06:40   I was convinced that it was the 9th of June,

00:06:44   is when WWDC was.

00:06:45   What is wrong with me?

00:06:46   I'm really struggling.

00:06:47   My conception of May and June over the last few weeks

00:06:50   has been horrific.

00:06:51   - It's, nine is just six upside down, it's fine.

00:06:53   - That's true, it must've been what it is.

00:06:55   - They're very similar numbers.

00:06:57   And it is 28 days, it is four weeks away.

00:07:01   away from today. So I think that by, yeah, sure, it's soon. It's what we're saying. It's soon.

00:07:07   - And today, May 9th, Apple has opened the registration ability for developers to sign up

00:07:15   to attend the day-long event happening at Apple Park. I actually saw on Twitter some Apple

00:07:25   employees referenced that as well as the keynote and State of the Union, the Apple Design Awards

00:07:32   will occur on this day. I haven't seen that reflected in any of Apple's official materials,

00:07:37   so you know, you can take that as hearsay from me at the moment. But yeah, so developers

00:07:44   can apply, they can submit their request to join between May 9th and May 11th, and then

00:07:48   everybody will be told by May 12th, so Thursday of this week if they're going to be visiting.

00:07:54   I'm still remaining intrigued about what on earth this event is actually going to look

00:07:59   like and how or if it's going to change the presentation of WWDC.

00:08:03   Yeah, it's still a mystery.

00:08:06   I guess we'll find out.

00:08:07   I mean, at some point we may find out beforehand or not.

00:08:12   It's something new.

00:08:14   Apple hasn't done it before.

00:08:15   It's harder to predict.

00:08:16   So we've been talking in the last couple of weeks about Jason and I were going to be ripping

00:08:21   apart a magic keyboard to extract the goodness of the Touch ID sensor inside. We did it on

00:08:28   Friday. There's a YouTube video, including the show notes, of the entire process if you

00:08:33   want to go and watch it. I think it was really fun. We had a good time hanging out. It was

00:08:38   full of trials and tribulations, I will say.

00:08:40   Could not have scripted it better, in fact, I would say. There were lots of twists and

00:08:44   turns to up the drama of, "Will they do it?" We've already spoiled that we did it.

00:08:49   Yeah, we did.

00:08:50   There was a lot of twists and turns and shocking moments

00:08:54   and popping sounds, but it all worked out.

00:08:59   - It all worked out.

00:09:00   We were very lucky actually during that stream

00:09:03   to be joined in the Twitch chat by Chaos Tian,

00:09:07   who is the person who inspired this entire thing,

00:09:10   the person who extracted the Touch ID sensor

00:09:13   and confirmed that it worked.

00:09:15   We were lucky because the iFixit guide

00:09:18   that we were trying to use wasn't great

00:09:22   for this particular keyboard.

00:09:24   I mean, and I wouldn't, some of the stuff I didn't like,

00:09:26   I didn't like the way iFixit wrote some of the guide,

00:09:28   but, and I had some issues with that,

00:09:31   but really the internals of the keyboards had changed

00:09:34   from the non-Touch ID version to the Touch ID version.

00:09:37   So after observing some of these struggles,

00:09:39   Chaos actually put together some instructions of their own,

00:09:44   which kind of, I think, add a little bit more

00:09:47   necessary context for some of the things that you would want to know if you're going to

00:09:53   attempt this yourself.

00:09:54   I would say that this is not a complicated thing, it just requires an equal measure of

00:10:02   brute force and very careful extraction, which is an intriguing thing, but those are the

00:10:09   two things that you need.

00:10:11   One of the things we were talking about a lot afterwards, and I still haven't worked

00:10:14   out what I'm going to do personally is where this is going to go. Like right now I just

00:10:18   have a logic board and some very thin ribbon cables and a button and I need to do something

00:10:27   with it. Like ultimately I want to put it inside of a keyboard case but the issue is

00:10:32   I need to be able to run two cables or need to be able to run the lightning cable inside

00:10:38   because I don't want to get a Bluetooth radio and attach it to a battery because that just

00:10:41   seems like a nightmare. But Chaos made their own 3D printed case, which I'll put a link

00:10:45   in the show notes too, and they also included some instructions on how they did that, like

00:10:51   3D printed and stuff. So I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to do something

00:10:55   with it. For me, this was more a "can I do this?" This has been a big thing of my last

00:11:01   couple of years with these types of electronics projects, is like, do I have the ability to

00:11:06   do this? And thankfully, the answer was yes, I did have the ability to do it, and I think

00:11:10   we had a great time making it work together.

00:11:13   So go check it out.

00:11:14   It was really fun, I think.

00:11:15   - Yeah, and it inspired me.

00:11:17   I definitely want to do this too,

00:11:19   but I need to, you know,

00:11:21   I want to have it end up being usable,

00:11:25   which means that I am going to need to figure out

00:11:28   what that case situation is.

00:11:30   So we'll have to monitor that.

00:11:32   If we find out that there's a, there's good,

00:11:34   like, like Chaos has a, has a simple 3D case,

00:11:38   printed case, maybe other people are working on something.

00:11:41   That's, I want that to be part of the process

00:11:44   because I don't want to have just a certain board.

00:11:47   - I wouldn't recommend doing it just to do what I've done

00:11:51   as such, like I think the next part is important.

00:11:55   - I showed this project to Lauren

00:11:57   and her immediate response was,

00:11:59   oh, they should just make that.

00:12:01   - Yeah, they should make it.

00:12:02   - Like, I mean, it was just immediate

00:12:04   and she's got a laptop that she uses

00:12:07   when she's at home at a lot of the time at a desk

00:12:09   with an external keyboard

00:12:11   and then has to reach up to do the touch ID.

00:12:12   And she was like, "Oh yeah, that makes so much sense."

00:12:15   And I admit maybe Apple will never make this

00:12:18   because it is such a weird thing

00:12:20   to just have a standalone touch ID thing.

00:12:21   And they're admitting

00:12:22   that people aren't using their keyboards and all that.

00:12:24   But something we said on the stream

00:12:25   that I think really needs to be restated is it would be,

00:12:28   I think the perfect place for this is in the Magic Trackpad.

00:12:35   that doing a version of the Magic Trackpad that just has a little tiny corner with the

00:12:38   Touch ID button, Touch ID sensor on it is all, you know, all you really need and then

00:12:45   you've made it not a requirement to use Apple's keyboard because I know not everybody uses

00:12:49   Apple's keyboard.

00:12:50   Yeah, I would expect more people use Magic Trackpad than use Apple's keyboards.

00:12:56   I don't know.

00:12:57   Probably.

00:12:58   Because you always need some kind of input device and I think the Trackpad does really

00:13:04   well so I would love to see that too you just put it on the little top corner

00:13:06   there oh man be off to the races be fantastic right studio display I don't

00:13:14   think we're touching this too much but there's been another beta which is

00:13:17   included yet more tweaks to the camera processing so they're clearly continuing

00:13:24   to tinker with this right yeah I I haven't noticed much of a difference it

00:13:28   It is a little bit different, but one of the things I did not do last week was go through

00:13:35   the whole process of putting the two displays front and back.

00:13:40   And also what I'm doing is I'm leaving the other display that I've got on the original

00:13:43   firmware, not playing a game of like one upmanship along the way.

00:13:50   I'm trying to keep the original firmware there so I can compare all these betas to the original

00:13:54   firmware.

00:13:55   But it seems like they're tinkering.

00:13:57   there's definitely more that they can do. And, you know, settings is ultimately what

00:14:02   they really should do is let us set the settings for the camera, please.

00:14:09   - According to Zoe Schiffer from The Verge, Apple's director of machine learning has resigned

00:14:15   over Apple's requirements for in-office working. Ian Goodfellow has been at Apple for just

00:14:20   over four years in an email to team members. He said, "I believe strongly that more flexibility

00:14:25   would have been the best policy for my team.

00:14:28   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:14:30   What's unclear here is was he leaving,

00:14:35   'cause what we know is he left

00:14:39   and he said that this was bad.

00:14:42   Doesn't necessarily mean that this is why he left,

00:14:44   but he took a shot out the door

00:14:47   and it might have been a motivator for him to leave.

00:14:50   So it's a data point.

00:14:51   It's a data point.

00:14:52   I like to see--

00:14:52   - Well, Schiffer says in her tweet,

00:14:55   is leaving the company due to its return to work policy.

00:14:59   Okay. I mean that's all we have is that tweet.

00:15:02   Yeah, I don't know if based on what was quoted

00:15:07   it's clear to me that that's accurate, but maybe it is. She's seen the

00:15:13   the email apparently. I will say that I like to see a manager standing up for

00:15:19   their team, right? Because so much of this seems to

00:15:22   have been individual motivated by individual workers saying, "We don't want to do this,"

00:15:27   and having a manager say, "This is bad for my team, and they are making us do this without

00:15:33   flexibility and it is bad for my team."

00:15:38   And that's good to hear, but obviously, if that was the case, it didn't stop.

00:15:47   It didn't prevent Ian Goodfellow from leaving.

00:15:50   he left, so that's not great. Yeah, maybe, and we don't know how many people there

00:15:56   are that have done this, right? Like, I expect it's more than just this one

00:15:59   person, but they're high up enough that they would send an email out, for example,

00:16:04   to a team that could be linked, leaked, which is what's happened. But you've got

00:16:08   to assume that he's not the only one, but then there's also the

00:16:12   argument from Apple's perspective of, like, this is what they want, and probably

00:16:17   when they were thinking about this plan that they have, assumed that they would lose people

00:16:22   and that they, I guess, weighed it up and felt that it was something that they were

00:16:27   willing to do. But, well, I think time's going to tell as to if this becomes more and more

00:16:33   of an issue going forward. You know, we don't know what's going to happen. But obviously

00:16:38   some people are pretty unhappy about it. And it is that idea which we spoke about before,

00:16:43   They made it work, right?

00:16:44   Apple has made it work.

00:16:46   The company is not ground to a halt.

00:16:48   There is clearly the ability for there to be

00:16:50   more distributed working.

00:16:52   They obviously believe it to a point

00:16:54   because they're allowing for it

00:16:56   at least a couple of days a week, right?

00:16:58   It's not like Apple's moved to a three-day work week.

00:17:01   I don't think they're expecting no work is done

00:17:04   on the two days a week on people who are at home.

00:17:06   So, but the wide brawling is weird to me.

00:17:12   I think that it should be given as a more,

00:17:15   as Goodfellow says, like more flexibility for their team.

00:17:20   I think that answers the question that we had of like,

00:17:25   will Apple be giving a lot more control

00:17:28   over individual managers to make their own decisions?

00:17:31   Well, it seemed like in this situation,

00:17:33   the answer was no for the machine learning team, right?

00:17:36   Because that's clearly what Goodfellow was asking for,

00:17:39   more flexibility for his team.

00:17:42   And he didn't get that.

00:17:43   Jason, let's travel back to the Netherlands.

00:17:47   We're back. - Oh boy.

00:17:48   - We're back. - Oh boy,

00:17:49   is it time for some Dutch dating?

00:17:51   - Duleps everywhere, it's time to date in the Netherlands.

00:17:53   It's Dutch date and time.

00:17:54   So I would assume everybody remembers a number of weeks ago,

00:17:59   Apple revised and altered its plan

00:18:01   for dealing with external linking

00:18:03   and alternative payment models.

00:18:06   So like the ability for somebody to pay

00:18:08   with a third party payment company.

00:18:10   This is in the hopes of appeasing Dutch regulators, right?

00:18:12   So remember there was this ruling,

00:18:15   Apple tried to ignore it for a while,

00:18:17   then they created a set of rules and guidelines

00:18:22   on how they were gonna do it.

00:18:23   They then revised them, they changed the language

00:18:25   of the interstitial screens, et cetera, et cetera.

00:18:28   They were then giving this, like here it is,

00:18:31   this is what we're gonna do.

00:18:32   And it went off to the Dutch regulators

00:18:34   and they are still not happy.

00:18:35   They have said that this new approach is an improvement

00:18:38   over what Apple provided before,

00:18:40   but still not sufficient enough

00:18:42   to comply with their rulings.

00:18:43   Apple has now hit the maximum fines of 50 million Euro

00:18:50   because they were doing 5 million a week,

00:18:52   and they've now hit that,

00:18:53   but now the regulators are considering alternative penalties

00:18:57   because Apple has still not provided them

00:19:01   with what they were looking for in the first place.

00:19:05   I don't know where this is gonna go, right?

00:19:07   It seems like a very weird game of like 20 questions

00:19:11   happening behind the scenes.

00:19:12   It's like, is this enough?

00:19:14   No, try again.

00:19:15   How about this?

00:19:16   Closer, warmer.

00:19:18   - Because my assumption is that

00:19:22   from the regulator's perspective,

00:19:24   they've been pretty clear because Google got it right.

00:19:27   Right?

00:19:29   Google made their proposal and it's been accepted.

00:19:32   - Right, but Apple's like,

00:19:33   we want to do the least possible.

00:19:37   - 'Cause it's clearly not the fees thing either, right?

00:19:43   'Cause you know, we were talking about that,

00:19:44   like about what the fees are

00:19:45   because Google is still taking a pretty hefty fee,

00:19:47   not as hefty as Apple's, but pretty hefty.

00:19:50   It's clearly just the way that it's being shown

00:19:52   and they're just not, for whatever reason,

00:19:54   meeting the rules.

00:19:56   And I just wonder how much time, effort, and attention

00:20:00   is this really taking from Apple

00:20:02   if they should. How many more times are we gonna have to go through this? This is just

00:20:06   one of many, right? Like... Anyway. But that's an update. I'm sure we'll come back to this

00:20:12   again at some point in the future.

00:20:13   Apparently we will because they haven't resolved anything.

00:20:16   Nope. Nothing is resolved.

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00:21:54   as

00:22:10   this week Jason.

00:22:12   Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is working on new features for Fitness Plus hoping to

00:22:16   be introduced this year.

00:22:18   This would include new workout types which seems like an obvious addition.

00:22:22   You just keep kind of increasing that over time.

00:22:24   Different instructors, different types of workouts, it seems like the obvious.

00:22:28   Upgrades to the Apple TV experience.

00:22:31   We don't know what they are but I know people have had frustrations with that especially

00:22:35   like if multiple people wanted to do a workout.

00:22:39   I hope that Apple try and find some way to do that,

00:22:41   which would be pretty cool.

00:22:42   - Oh yeah, that'd be good.

00:22:44   - Also, this one's weird to me, I don't get this.

00:22:46   Also, apparently Apple are exploring quote,

00:22:49   "An Instacart-like service that integrates

00:22:52   with nutrition data in the Health app."

00:22:55   Now, if I'm following right,

00:22:57   that means Apple wants to deliver your groceries?

00:23:00   Like I don't, am I following that correctly?

00:23:02   - And wants to log your meals?

00:23:06   I don't know.

00:23:08   - Right, I don't get this. - Very weird, right?

00:23:09   - I don't understand this at all.

00:23:11   - Or is it a service that they're partnering with

00:23:13   that will bring little boxes of food to your house

00:23:16   and labeled for you and then you eat them and it knows?

00:23:19   - I don't need my computer company

00:23:22   to be handling my groceries for me.

00:23:24   - No, this seems like too far.

00:23:27   Also, any experience that I've had with even apps

00:23:29   that are like, "Oh, we'll build your shopping list,"

00:23:31   and all that, it's like, it doesn't work for me.

00:23:33   It has never worked because the level of specificity

00:23:37   that I have about what I want to buy is way more than they're capable of doing.

00:23:41   I don't understand this. It seems like an unnecessarily complicated thing.

00:23:47   If they want to get more into like nutrition tracking,

00:23:51   calorie tracking, like as a thing for the health and fitness teams, fine.

00:23:56   But the idea of integrating it with real world grocery delivery services,

00:24:01   unless it's an API, I don't understand it, right?

00:24:05   Like, if they're developing tools for companies that do this to integrate into the health

00:24:10   app, that's one thing.

00:24:12   But them trying to develop some kind of system, I don't know, this seems like someone heard

00:24:16   something and it got spit through somebody else, it didn't make any sense.

00:24:19   I just can't think of the logic in this at all.

00:24:22   No.

00:24:23   Mark Gurman also gave a little bit more detail, this is all coming from his Poweron newsletter

00:24:27   of course, on the hardware subscription plans that Apple's looking to do.

00:24:33   So this is the idea of you paying monthly and getting your iPhone, your iPad or your

00:24:38   Mac and getting them refreshed and stuff like that.

00:24:40   So you know doing more than the upgrade program to actual subscriptions for hardware devices.

00:24:47   Apple wants to make this experience on par with the other services that you already have.

00:24:53   So you would use your iCloud or App Store account to subscribe and it would all just

00:24:57   be managed like any service.

00:25:00   it seems like they don't want to make it this whole big thing like the you know

00:25:03   the iPhone upgrade program right now is like a huge big thing right you are

00:25:07   going through credit checks and doing all that stuff I don't know how Apple

00:25:13   could make this work like if they want to make it as simple as signing up for

00:25:19   Apple TV+ like how do you manage that like that the person is not just gonna

00:25:26   to pay once and then cancel their account and they've got your device, right?

00:25:29   Like, I'm intrigued to see what that ends up looking like.

00:25:32   If they want to make it simple, you potentially run into some problems there.

00:25:38   The current expectation for this is late 2022 as a launch date at the earliest.

00:25:45   Apple are prioritizing their buy now, pay later instalment plan option first.

00:25:50   And this is like the idea of like, you could go to the Apple store and you'd be able to

00:25:54   split your new iPad purchase over four payments, which is, I think as you've mentioned, what

00:26:00   all the kids are doing these days.

00:26:01   It's a hot thing with the kids, right?

00:26:04   When I walk to my Apple store, there are signs throughout the outdoor shopping center, basically,

00:26:11   about for various services that are, you know, pay in three, pay in four.

00:26:16   the idea that it doesn't cost $800 if you pay in four,

00:26:21   it costs $200 for four months.

00:26:26   - There's some logic to it, right?

00:26:27   - No, the logic is that people have that,

00:26:30   will be able to pay the payment stretched out over four,

00:26:33   but they don't have enough money in the bank

00:26:34   to buy it right now.

00:26:35   And rather than doing it like on layaway

00:26:37   or something like that,

00:26:38   they just get it and then know they're committed,

00:26:42   you know, and then we can have a discussion of,

00:26:44   I saw an article today about like how many of those things do the people fail to make

00:26:48   the payments and what is that what are the penalties and all of that is it's still paying

00:26:53   on credit essentially so you can get yourself in trouble but it has also proven to be a

00:26:57   pretty popular way for people who don't have a lot of money sort of in the bank but are

00:27:02   are willing to make the payments and stretch it out to get the thing that they want so

00:27:06   and if I'm remembering rightly like a lot of these if like a lot of these things they're

00:27:11   not actually charging you interest either. It's just... Right, oh, no, that's generally

00:27:15   they are if you pick if you make the payments in four or whatever then it's

00:27:20   just it's literally one quarter of the price every month for four months.

00:27:23   It's just interest free credit and like you know at that point I think there's

00:27:27   some logic to doing it like even if you have the money just split it out make it

00:27:30   less of a hit on yourself you know what I mean why not? Well especially if it's

00:27:34   Apple doing it and so it's just sort of like coming out of your same credit card

00:27:38   is all your other Apple stuff and all of that. And then you're like, put it on my account,

00:27:41   basically. I don't know. It's very much Apple trying to take control. I mean, this is obviously

00:27:49   part of being a person at Apple is to always survey your partnerships and the places where

00:27:53   you're outsourcing to other companies and say, should we be doing that ourselves? And a lot of

00:27:59   times the answer is probably no, but occasionally I do think that they see something and they say,

00:28:04   "Yeah, maybe we should do this."

00:28:06   And the financial stuff clearly is an area

00:28:07   where they would like to eliminate those partners

00:28:12   and just do it themselves.

00:28:13   - And then a couple little bits on AirPods.

00:28:16   Apple's still planning to release new AirPods Pro

00:28:18   later this year.

00:28:20   Mark mentions this would be prudent

00:28:21   because the batteries are probably starting to fall off

00:28:23   for early AirPods Pro customers.

00:28:26   Like me, my AirPods Pro batteries are real struggling now.

00:28:31   This is what happened with the original AirPods for me too.

00:28:34   when I replaced my original AirPods of AirPods Pro,

00:28:37   you know, been out for a couple of years

00:28:38   and brought a new one.

00:28:40   I'm having to charge my AirPods much more frequently,

00:28:43   like the case and the AirPods themselves.

00:28:46   - I'm not having this issue mostly

00:28:48   because I had my AirPods Pro replaced

00:28:51   due to the rattling issue.

00:28:53   So they seem to be, they seem to have a little more life,

00:28:57   but I love them.

00:28:59   And so I would be happy to see what a new set looked like

00:29:03   and how they're improved because I love the current ones.

00:29:07   So hopefully they'll just get better

00:29:09   and it'll give me a reason to get a new set

00:29:11   'cause they're my favorite. - And I do love

00:29:13   that this is an Apple product

00:29:14   that they do not feel the need to update every year.

00:29:17   They just wait. - Yeah.

00:29:20   - A couple of years, I think it's fantastic.

00:29:22   It works for me.

00:29:24   Mark also mentions a refresh of the AirPods Max

00:29:27   with new color options, but probably no other changes.

00:29:30   Hopefully a price drop, it says Mark,

00:29:33   which I would agree I think they should probably reduce the price. I love my AirPods Max but

00:29:36   they are not worth the price I paid for them I would say. I still want to see an AirPods Max 2

00:29:44   with lighter materials because that would be better for a lot more people and would help make them

00:29:49   cheaper and folding. Folding is the biggest thing that I want to see from from that product.

00:29:54   Otherwise it's a fantastic product but for me but I don't think that it is great for everybody.

00:30:01   So I would love to see it more.

00:30:03   - AirPods Max, maybe AirPods Studio.

00:30:06   AirPods Studio.

00:30:07   - That was the rumoured the name, right?

00:30:08   Back in the day.

00:30:09   - Right, and now they've got studio products.

00:30:11   So it's a better name.

00:30:12   It's a better name.

00:30:13   - It's a way better name.

00:30:14   It's a way better name.

00:30:15   Studio is the best.

00:30:16   Max sucks.

00:30:17   Sorry if your name's Max.

00:30:18   - Studio has a music connotation.

00:30:23   - Yes, it's a perfect name. - Max.

00:30:24   Max does not.

00:30:26   - It may have, it may purely have been like

00:30:28   they were gonna call them AirPods Studio

00:30:29   marketing was like nope we have got that name for something else come up with something

00:30:34   come back to the drawing board.

00:30:35   Hands off. Yeah or they're like well we don't want confusion with Beats which has some studio

00:30:40   but it's like too bad. AirPods studio it's fine.

00:30:44   We're gonna go back to a not off news segment here, Jason Snow. Time for upshift here because

00:30:50   we have some Apple Car news. Apple has hired a Ford veteran, Mark Gurman and Keith Naughton

00:30:59   reporting at Bloomberg that Apple has hired Desi Ujegovicek from Ford. Her previous roles

00:31:06   at Ford are in vehicle safety and engineering. She's been at Ford for over 30 years, most recently

00:31:12   as the global director of automotive safety engineering, as well as assisting on engineering

00:31:19   of various car components. Ujegovicek has history with working on regulatory issues as well.

00:31:26   So an interesting person to bring over, as a reminder, just to get everybody up to date,

00:31:33   Apple has had a ton of issues retaining key talent in the car project.

00:31:37   It had previously been run by another Ford veteran, Doug Field, who left.

00:31:41   It's currently being overseen by Kevin Lynch. Yes, the guy from Adobe who did the Apple Watch

00:31:45   is running the car project. This report doesn't give any indication as to where

00:31:52   where Uce Kvisek will sit from a leadership perspective at this stage. It doesn't seem

00:31:58   like from the way it's written that she'll be heading the project, but would be high

00:32:02   up.

00:32:03   But it is a, you know, a serious, well thought of person who's been a Ford executive for

00:32:10   a long time. I think that's interesting in terms of how seriously they're taking it.

00:32:14   It does also possibly say something about her wanting a new challenge, about what Ford's

00:32:20   reorg around EVs look like and maybe she wasn't happy with where she ended up in that. I mean,

00:32:25   there's a lot of reasons that this could have happened, but it is somebody who's

00:32:29   a serious auto industry executive who's coming to work on this project, which I think is,

00:32:32   if nothing else, it's a data point of like, oh, I guess this is still happening and they're still

00:32:38   taking it seriously because otherwise somebody this seriously entrenched in the auto industry

00:32:44   would not, and in fact, if you look at safety and regulatory,

00:32:49   you could even say this suggests more than intent

00:32:55   to ship something, right?

00:32:59   That at some point you need to start getting your ducks

00:33:02   in a row in order to have your vehicle be approved

00:33:06   and street legal, right?

00:33:08   You need somebody who actually has experienced

00:33:11   what it's like to work with regulators to build cars that are acceptable and safe and

00:33:17   legal and that this is what she's been doing. So they may be like, "Oh, we need somebody

00:33:23   who actually can make sure that this is not just a theory, but it's a product that we

00:33:27   can actually sell."

00:33:28   - I mean, especially considering all of the report and continues to indicate that Apple's

00:33:33   current plan is to aim towards a fully self-driving car with no steering wheel pedals. They're

00:33:40   going to need this kind of assistance to try and get people to let them do that.

00:33:46   Or I hope that she comes in and says, "Excuse me, what now?"

00:33:50   Well, but here's the thing. You put something in my mind a minute ago about the seriousness.

00:33:56   Now I'm assuming that someone like this is not answering a job posting. They're being

00:34:04   headhunted, right?

00:34:05   Probably yes.

00:34:06   Right? It would be my assumption.

00:34:08   You know, my father-in-law was a high-level executive headhunter, so absolutely. I can

00:34:15   picture it. It's like they come and say, "We need a vice president or president-level person

00:34:20   to come and do this thing," and then they go and they find the four people who could

00:34:24   do that and they approach them.

00:34:25   And especially, you know, it's possible that UJ Kvisek was on the list because that

00:34:31   Doug – a list that Doug Field made.

00:34:34   It could entirely be, right?

00:34:36   of like, here's a bunch of people that would be really good,

00:34:38   either they already, like Field had already made it,

00:34:42   or left it, or whatever, you know what I mean?

00:34:44   - Exactly, yeah, on his desk he was like,

00:34:46   people who could replace me. - People to hire.

00:34:49   - Yeah, exactly, yes, and so you would think also

00:34:51   that Desi Użyjekowiśczyk would not have,

00:34:54   would not have taken this job without very clearly knowing

00:34:56   what Apple's aims are, and what Apple's--

00:34:58   - Right, exactly. - Purposes are.

00:34:59   - They're sitting down, and she's gonna say,

00:35:01   all right, so what's the plan here, what you looking for?

00:35:04   - Exactly, so while it's funny to imagine her getting there

00:35:06   and then on day one they're like,

00:35:07   okay, what we're gonna do is there's gonna be

00:35:09   no steering wheel and--

00:35:10   - Where's the wheel?

00:35:11   - Excuse me.

00:35:12   In reality, I do wonder though, again,

00:35:17   this is, look, this is us expressing the same skepticism

00:35:20   we've expressed in the past, which is,

00:35:22   I think that there is literally zero chance

00:35:24   of Apple releasing a car that only self-drives

00:35:27   and doesn't have controls for people to drive normally.

00:35:31   I think, I'll say it again.

00:35:33   zero chance because it's just not like,

00:35:37   and certainly not in the next decade, right?

00:35:40   Like this self-driving tech is not good anywhere.

00:35:45   The companies that have been working on it for ages,

00:35:47   it's still not good enough.

00:35:48   And it's certainly not good enough

00:35:50   for you to not have the ability to take control

00:35:53   or to drive it in certain circumstances

00:35:55   where it can't be run.

00:35:56   I'm willing to go,

00:35:58   and this is just summarizing a past episode,

00:36:00   but like I'm willing to go down the path

00:36:02   of like on highways, it'll be self fully self-driving

00:36:06   all that, it's like, okay, I'm willing to at least accept

00:36:10   that it's possible that like Tesla software

00:36:13   will be good enough that in certain places

00:36:16   you can set it and forget it, even though right now

00:36:19   the full self-driving beta stuff is, you know, again,

00:36:21   on highways, it's pretty good except when it's terrible,

00:36:24   on streets, it's much more difficult

00:36:27   and problematic than that.

00:36:29   But to make it so perfect that you don't need controls

00:36:34   is never, I mean, never with an asterisk saying,

00:36:37   let's say in the next decade,

00:36:39   as a part of this Apple project,

00:36:41   never gonna be the case.

00:36:42   It's ridiculous.

00:36:44   - A project like this as well,

00:36:46   you've got to be able to build something

00:36:48   that consumers are going to feel comfortable owning

00:36:51   and getting behind the wheel of.

00:36:53   I mean, I am such a fan of Apple, obviously, right?

00:36:57   And love everything that they make.

00:36:59   I wouldn't want to get Apple's first generation car,

00:37:02   even if it was a normal car, right?

00:37:04   Because they are not a car company.

00:37:06   - Yeah, I think, yeah, you'd be in for a ride,

00:37:09   but I will say if Apple, like I can imagine an Apple car.

00:37:14   I can, it's been long enough that we've been talking

00:37:17   about this, that I can imagine an Apple car.

00:37:19   I can imagine Apple sort of, you know,

00:37:24   they miss their shot in the sense that they should have been

00:37:27   out there competing with Tesla and Rivian,

00:37:29   and now all the big automakers are coming in.

00:37:31   But I can still imagine an Apple car that's luxurious,

00:37:35   it's more expensive,

00:37:36   it's got really nice tech on the inside,

00:37:39   it's got integration with cellular networks in your phone

00:37:42   and all of that kind of stuff,

00:37:43   that the software on board is really, really good.

00:37:46   Like, I can imagine all of that

00:37:48   and that it has great safety features

00:37:50   and that it has great smart driving features and all that.

00:37:53   Like, I can picture all of that.

00:37:56   The question has always been with this project,

00:37:58   where does Apple draw that line in terms of below here,

00:38:01   we can't ship it 'cause it's just too much

00:38:03   like all the other products.

00:38:04   And is a really nice car that's more like a Lucid Air

00:38:09   or a Tesla Model S kind of like a really nice expensive,

00:38:14   but very good electric car, is that enough for Apple?

00:38:20   Or does Apple need to have that feature

00:38:22   that's gonna blow them away?

00:38:23   And that's my concern about this project

00:38:26   is it seems that rather than doing

00:38:28   a really nice electric car,

00:38:31   they're trying to find that feature that'll blow them away.

00:38:35   And I'm not sure that that feature is one

00:38:36   that they're gonna be able to execute on.

00:38:38   So if this rumor was, well, they're gonna do a car,

00:38:41   but it's gonna have really good self-driving software

00:38:43   that's gonna be much better than what Tesla is doing

00:38:45   or something like that.

00:38:46   It's like, okay, I could believe that that was their goal.

00:38:50   Leaving aside, again, the analysis

00:38:52   of would it really be that way?

00:38:53   I can believe that that's their goal.

00:38:55   But when it's like, you won't even have a steering wheel,

00:38:59   there'll be a secret steering wheel that will only pop out

00:39:01   in very specific circumstances for legal reasons,

00:39:04   but it won't even look like a steering wheel.

00:39:07   It'll look like, I don't even know what, right?

00:39:10   That's where they lose me because I just,

00:39:13   I don't think that that is within their reach

00:39:15   or quite frankly, anyone's reach.

00:39:17   To have a car so good at driving itself

00:39:20   that you don't need a steering wheel just seems impossible.

00:39:25   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Capital One. Have you ever hit a technical

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00:40:42   in your wallet?

00:40:43   Our thanks to Capital One for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:40:46   Hey Jason, what's your password?

00:40:49   Uh, it is a long series of-

00:40:52   Is this really Myke? Are you phishing me right now?

00:40:55   It's a long series of numbers and letters.

00:40:57   While I still can, Jason Snow, I'm trying to steal your password.

00:41:02   Well, better be quick about it, because pretty soon I'm not going to have one.

00:41:07   I will read from press release on Apple's newsroom page.

00:41:11   the joint press release is even better.

00:41:13   Indeed. In a joint effort to make the web more secure and usable for all, Apple, Google

00:41:18   and Microsoft today announced plans to expand support for a common passwordless sign-in

00:41:30   standard created by the FIDO Alliance and the World Wide Web Consortium. The new capability

00:41:37   what allow websites and apps to offer consistent, secure, and easy passwordless sign-ins to

00:41:44   consumers across devices and platforms."

00:41:48   I got distracted by the idea of like, I'm so happy that they added Microsoft to this

00:41:53   because the last time Apple and Google got together to do something, it caused so many

00:41:58   problems.

00:41:59   I remember the exposure notification stuff, how much of a nightmare that ended up being

00:42:04   for them.

00:42:05   - Well, don't forget the new smart home consortium

00:42:09   that hasn't happened yet.

00:42:10   - Matter.

00:42:11   - Right?

00:42:11   - There's too many involved in that one.

00:42:13   - Haven't happened yet.

00:42:15   - These are, this whole thing,

00:42:17   if you're not understanding what I'm talking about right now,

00:42:19   this is pretty complicated.

00:42:20   This is end to end passwordless options.

00:42:23   Basically allowing you to sign into a website

00:42:26   or an app or a service with the same method you use

00:42:30   to unlock say your phone.

00:42:31   This could be biometrics, Face ID, Touch ID,

00:42:34   or your passcode or password that you use

00:42:36   to unlock your phone.

00:42:38   - Let me give you a good example.

00:42:39   If you go to Apple's website and you try to log in

00:42:42   to see your orders or something,

00:42:45   on a modern macOS or iOS browser,

00:42:48   you don't get a password field.

00:42:51   You get a system authentication request

00:42:56   that has you do touch ID,

00:42:57   or I don't know whether the watch ID thing works

00:43:00   or you put in your password for your computer.

00:43:04   your device password, or face ID on iOS, right?

00:43:08   You don't put in the password.

00:43:13   You don't put in your Apple ID password.

00:43:15   You authenticate, at which point you're logged in.

00:43:18   The idea here is you would be able to do that everywhere.

00:43:22   - Yes, and also, that system dialogue

00:43:25   is just giving you an easier way to sign in.

00:43:28   You still have a password, right?

00:43:29   You still have the password.

00:43:31   This system removes passwords completely.

00:43:35   There aren't any.

00:43:36   You have a username,

00:43:38   and then your device takes over with the authentication.

00:43:42   - I actually don't know.

00:43:43   I think maybe there are cases in Apple's system

00:43:46   where you're authenticating using biometrics

00:43:48   or with your device password

00:43:51   that I don't know if it's sending your Apple ID password

00:43:56   at that point,

00:43:57   or if it's sending the signed cryptographic blob

00:44:00   verifies your identity.

00:44:02   - But that account, I still have a password though, right?

00:44:04   Like there is one, the service has a password for me.

00:44:08   - Sure, and I think in the future, I mean,

00:44:10   we can talk about some of the details here,

00:44:12   but I think there will probably be lots of cases

00:44:14   where you also have to have optionally a password

00:44:17   depending on what, you know,

00:44:18   or there's a per device password, a one-time password,

00:44:21   whatever it is.

00:44:22   But yeah, the idea is that you're not just putting in

00:44:24   your authentication so that your system can look up

00:44:28   in its little password manager what your password is

00:44:30   and send it.

00:44:31   The idea here is you basically sign up on this website

00:44:34   and say, this is me and there's a cryptographic exchange.

00:44:39   And then the next time you come back

00:44:40   and it wants you to log in,

00:44:42   you pass the proof that you're you

00:44:44   via a cryptographic exchange and it lets you in.

00:44:47   And that's it.

00:44:49   - Yeah, I read in detail a little bit more

00:44:51   from this is something you linked to.

00:44:53   Dan Marne of Six Colors wrote up an article

00:44:57   about a WWDC session from 2021,

00:45:00   where Apple introduced their take on this.

00:45:03   So, and this was like, because it is based on a standard,

00:45:06   but now the large tech companies are like,

00:45:09   trying to make it a public thing and push it forward.

00:45:12   - Right, right.

00:45:13   So this is, yeah, so Apple is already doing the work on this.

00:45:15   There's WebAuthn and Fido,

00:45:18   and the press release that came out last week

00:45:21   is essentially all three major operating system vendors

00:45:24   saying, yes, this is what we're going to do.

00:45:26   And so Apple's already been working on it.

00:45:27   It's in iOS 15 and Monterey, but it's disabled by default.

00:45:31   It's just meant to be used as a test

00:45:34   so people can test to this.

00:45:36   But, and you can watch the session if you want to.

00:45:39   And Dan's write-up is really good.

00:45:41   He wrote quite a lot about what's in the session.

00:45:44   And then you can also watch the session if you want to.

00:45:48   But it makes things way easier and way more secure

00:45:54   because it's not even using a password generator.

00:45:57   It's using this whole cryptographic thing,

00:45:59   and it's doing a lot of things that you're familiar with,

00:46:01   like a barcode where you're in your browser,

00:46:05   and your browser sees the barcode and says,

00:46:06   "Oh, here's the setup,

00:46:08   and it's all supposed to happen automatically."

00:46:10   And like, they are, it's not here yet,

00:46:13   but we're getting, if you've ever been like,

00:46:15   "Ah, I'm really tired of passwords being compromised

00:46:18   and password managers and all of those things,"

00:46:21   just know that the three major OS vendors are all working on this new standard that

00:46:27   should make everything way more secure.

00:46:31   >> Yeah, I will say there is a part of me, I can't get my head completely around how

00:46:35   this couldn't be spoofed, but I'm just going to assume that obviously this has been considered

00:46:39   and would be basically impossible to do. It's a little bit confusing to me, because you

00:46:45   pass this key, right? But like, why could the key not be intercepted? I don't fully

00:46:51   understand that part, but I'm just going to assume that it's fine.

00:46:59   I think it's all based on public key encryption. So the idea there is that

00:47:04   when the original link is made, a secret is exchanged, and then you're the only one who's

00:47:10   who's got the ability to make that secret essentially.

00:47:13   And that's how public key encryption works

00:47:16   in the most simplified version ever.

00:47:18   - And here's my issue with that, the word public,

00:47:20   that's where I start to get stuck.

00:47:23   - Oh yeah, well, no, but it's the public key means

00:47:25   anybody can decode, but only you can encode.

00:47:29   - Okay.

00:47:31   - Or anybody can encode, but only you can decode.

00:47:33   Yeah, that's the one. - One way or the other.

00:47:34   - Anyway, it's a one way thing.

00:47:38   - Okay.

00:47:38   - And that's the beauty of it. - They should be able to do better words.

00:47:40   Public is not a good word for passwords, right?

00:47:43   - Okay. - You see what I'm saying here?

00:47:44   - Well, it is. Okay, private key encryption.

00:47:46   - But that sounds better, though. - How about that? You feel better?

00:47:47   - Do you not agree with me, right? - Okay.

00:47:49   - Like, just as a way to try and explain this to someone like me,

00:47:52   if it was called private, it makes me feel better than the word public.

00:47:56   - It's super secret private encryption format.

00:47:58   - I know you're making fun of me now, but you understand what I'm saying, right?

00:48:01   - Yeah, I do. - Like, this is where stuff like this

00:48:03   can start to get complicated for someone when you're trying to explain it to them.

00:48:06   That's why instead of calling it that, they're just going to call it a web often or Fido.

00:48:10   Well, Apple call them pass keys, which I think is a pretty good way of describing it.

00:48:17   So part of the thinking around this is like, what it should do is reduce a couple of things

00:48:22   quite significantly.

00:48:24   One would be phishing attempts because there isn't a password you can give to a malicious

00:48:28   website.

00:48:29   There isn't a password that you can give to somebody over email or over the phone or whatever

00:48:33   because there is no password,

00:48:35   and SMS interception of two-factor codes would go away

00:48:40   because in essence, there can always be a second factor,

00:48:45   which is another device.

00:48:49   I don't understand how that would work exactly on, say,

00:48:53   if you were logging in on your phone, right?

00:48:56   There isn't a two-factor part.

00:48:58   - And there's a question about what happens

00:49:00   if you've got a shared account

00:49:01   where like multiple people need to be logged into it.

00:49:04   But again, I'm without diving deep into this,

00:49:08   I'm pretty sure that the people working on this

00:49:10   are anticipating all of these uses

00:49:12   and are working on ways around it, right?

00:49:14   The idea here though, is that the,

00:49:16   that you would put in a username and a password

00:49:19   and submit it as a way to control your presence

00:49:22   on the internet is going to be replaced

00:49:25   by something more secure.

00:49:27   And that's the big picture thing, right?

00:49:29   - That's good, personally.

00:49:30   I think this is a good idea.

00:49:32   I think as our lives are moving increasingly online,

00:49:37   the requirement for individuals to have strong passwords

00:49:43   and two-factor and a system where both of those things

00:49:51   are not linked to anything else that you own, right?

00:49:55   You know, we use the same password twice.

00:49:57   You want to make sure you use two-factor,

00:49:58   but ooh, not SMS messaging.

00:50:01   The level of complexity that just an individual user

00:50:04   has to have to try and keep any kind of modicum

00:50:07   of security these days,

00:50:08   because even if you do all the right things,

00:50:10   a service can be hacked and your password's stolen,

00:50:14   and your account is compromised, right?

00:50:15   - Right.

00:50:16   - Everything that you have to do

00:50:18   to still only be partly secured,

00:50:21   it's becoming too complicated.

00:50:23   And things like the Apple doing the Iker keychain

00:50:27   and the strong passwords and all that kind of stuff.

00:50:29   That's only part of the way, right?

00:50:31   Like it only stops like half of the stuff

00:50:34   from going wrong, you know?

00:50:35   - And the truth is that even,

00:50:39   this is frustrating for very technical people.

00:50:42   For non-technical people, it's terrible, right?

00:50:45   Like lots of people don't use a password manager.

00:50:48   Lots of people use,

00:50:49   that still use the same password everywhere.

00:50:51   Or they've got a sheet of paper or a notebook

00:50:54   and they write down their passwords, right?

00:50:56   Like, passwords are bad, not just because they're insecure,

00:51:01   but because they're hard to manage, right?

00:51:02   Passwords are bad because they're hard to manage.

00:51:05   And I know we're gonna talk about

00:51:07   one password, the product, in a second,

00:51:09   but one of the ideas behind one password

00:51:11   and other password managers is you reduce it

00:51:14   to sort of a single way of authentication,

00:51:16   and then everything else is handled for you.

00:51:18   And that's better, right?

00:51:21   But you have to get there.

00:51:22   And even Apple adding password managers

00:51:24   to iOS and macOS. Still a lot of people don't use them, a lot of people don't understand

00:51:29   them. And then the more complex it gets, well now you need a two-factor thing and you probably

00:51:33   shouldn't put that as an SMS message, it should be on your phone and how do you get it in.

00:51:36   John Syracuse on ATP last week was talking about how hard it was to get barcode authentication

00:51:42   for his son's college login, right? And that was a highly technical person who couldn't

00:51:46   get it to work. Even for technical people, it's hard. For non-technical people, it's

00:51:51   very, very hard and that is going to be the weak point where people try to exploit them

00:51:57   and rob them and it's bad. So there has to be like a new way of doing this and this is

00:52:04   it. And it's exciting because a lot of smart security people have been working for a long

00:52:09   time to try to find, oh, this is like email being totally open because the internet was

00:52:15   invented when there were no security risks and everybody was trusted. And as a result,

00:52:21   is just broken forever, right? Well, this is kind of like that for passwords, which

00:52:24   is when the web came into being, things weren't even secure. It was unsecure and you would

00:52:30   just send your password insecurely and it's got to change, right? There's too much valuable

00:52:37   stuff on the internet. It needs to change. And we've been adding all these other multi-factor

00:52:41   security things on top of it and telling people to have a password manager and have these

00:52:46   long chains of unrememorable things in order to get those things in there. And it's all

00:52:53   too much, right? So I'm excited that this is not only happening, but that this is not

00:52:57   one of those cases where the big tech companies are all walking around like, "Look, we're

00:53:03   the coolest. We've got the best idea." They all realize for this to work, they have to

00:53:06   work together. And that's why there's this alliance and Fido and the W3C is behind this

00:53:14   and they're gonna make this a thing, even if it does take probably, you know, half a

00:53:19   decade or a decade for it to be everywhere. At least the end is in sight now for passwords,

00:53:24   I think that's a good thing.

00:53:25   - Yep, and there are still things I wanna, like, I would love to know more about, like,

00:53:31   if it's, what happens if you lose a device, how do you get access to your stuff again

00:53:35   on a new device?

00:53:36   - Sure, sure, and Apple and Google and Microsoft will probably need to be involved in that,

00:53:41   They're gonna probably need to be able to make it,

00:53:43   it's a little like, you know, Apple warning you

00:53:45   about not having a backup access code

00:53:47   for your iCloud or whatever.

00:53:49   It's like, that's gonna need to be part of this,

00:53:51   if I lose my phone, how do I get back in?

00:53:54   That's gonna have to be part of the deal.

00:53:55   - Well, like if I switch from iOS to Android, right?

00:53:58   Like that should be a seamless process,

00:54:00   which is why these companies,

00:54:01   one of the reasons I'm sure these companies work together

00:54:03   is to make that happen.

00:54:04   'Cause if they all believe that this should be the case,

00:54:07   they have to work together

00:54:09   as the three dominant companies in the space, right?

00:54:11   And then stuff like enforcing security.

00:54:14   Like if I only have a four digit code on my iPhone

00:54:17   and that's how I use for this, like that's not enough.

00:54:20   - Right.

00:54:21   Yeah, well you would need to do your face ID

00:54:23   or something else like that.

00:54:24   They're gonna have to be authentication standards

00:54:27   for this stuff.

00:54:28   I think it's much more likely going to be stuff like that

00:54:31   than it is one, two, three, four,

00:54:34   which we as we know is your password.

00:54:36   - Everybody knows that.

00:54:38   - One, two, three, four.

00:54:39   Well, I have other passwords

00:54:42   and they're stored in 1Password

00:54:43   and 1Password at 8 just got released.

00:54:45   You had an article that you wrote on 6 Colors about it.

00:54:48   I kind of just wanted to get your opinion on this,

00:54:51   like thinking about, you know,

00:54:53   talking about passwords today.

00:54:54   This is what we're both currently using

00:54:56   for our password management.

00:54:57   Obviously, 1Password at 8 was controversial

00:55:01   when it was first unveiled.

00:55:03   - Right, late last summer.

00:55:05   It's been in beta a very long time.

00:55:07   controversial primarily because of what it represented.

00:55:12   Okay, there's two things.

00:55:13   And you and I, you were a guest

00:55:14   on the Six Colors podcast last Friday

00:55:16   for our subscribers. - It was.

00:55:17   - We talked about this.

00:55:18   That's one of the things you get

00:55:19   by being a Six Colors subscriber is a podcast.

00:55:21   It's usually me and Dan, but it was Myke this time.

00:55:25   And like part of 1Password is what it represents.

00:55:28   On one level, 1Password 8 doesn't use the traditional method

00:55:35   of Mac app development.

00:55:37   They basically threw away their Mac app

00:55:38   and they're using a cross-platform

00:55:40   based on web standards, Electron interface

00:55:46   on top of a cross-platform binary

00:55:48   that they wrote using the Rust programming language,

00:55:50   which again, you shouldn't ever need to know

00:55:52   what programming language your program was written in,

00:55:55   but just they have a new approach.

00:55:57   And this is what powers their Linux version

00:55:58   and it powers their Windows version

00:56:00   and now their Mac version as well.

00:56:02   And so people who are concerned about the health of the Mac

00:56:05   and the future of apps on the Mac were concerned about that.

00:56:07   And I was concerned about that, right?

00:56:09   It's like, it's not a good sign.

00:56:10   I understand why they did it, but it's not a great sign.

00:56:13   I will say 10 months later, the app is good.

00:56:17   The app is good.

00:56:18   I think the interface is good.

00:56:20   Maybe it's the Apple Silicon talking,

00:56:22   'cause I upgraded to this when I went to the Mac studio,

00:56:26   but like, I think it's fast.

00:56:28   I think it's responsive.

00:56:28   I think it looks good.

00:56:29   They got rid of a lot of kind of Chrome around the UI

00:56:32   that they didn't need.

00:56:33   They did make some changes to try to make it feel

00:56:35   more Mac-like and less like a fake app.

00:56:37   Like the preferences window,

00:56:38   when I tested the first beta in August last year,

00:56:42   was a fake window, kind of like you see in Catalyst,

00:56:44   where they put up a window,

00:56:46   but it's inside the other window suspiciously.

00:56:48   And if you try to drag that window somewhere else,

00:56:50   it doesn't go anywhere, 'cause it's not really a window.

00:56:53   It's a fake window inside the other window.

00:56:55   Well, their preferences window is a real window now, right?

00:56:57   Like they, there are a lot of interface niceties

00:57:00   that they have added.

00:57:01   They put a lot of effort into this.

00:57:02   - It doesn't look anything like a Mac preferences window.

00:57:06   However, you know, I would say I'm one of the first people

00:57:09   to say, I don't think that any developer should be forced

00:57:12   to design anything any specific way.

00:57:15   I think they should be able to choose their own.

00:57:17   - I think its preferences window is kind of modern Mac-like

00:57:20   in the sense that it's got the little sidebar

00:57:21   with the little colored icons.

00:57:23   And I think that that's a direction

00:57:24   that Apple's been going to.

00:57:26   - It doesn't, but it doesn't look like it.

00:57:27   Like, you know, if I go to quote unquote,

00:57:29   a good Mac app, it doesn't look like that.

00:57:32   But I'm just saying, right, like they've made it better.

00:57:36   It's got its own look, but I think 1Password

00:57:38   is a big enough company that they can dictate

00:57:40   the way they want their apps to be designed.

00:57:42   - Yeah, it feels modern to me.

00:57:43   It doesn't, what it doesn't do is make me feel like

00:57:46   I'm looking at a Windows app that's been brought to the Mac.

00:57:48   So whatever they did, it doesn't feel to me

00:57:52   like an intruder on the platform, which is the big,

00:57:54   for me, that's the big concern,

00:57:56   is there's variation on your platform,

00:57:58   but there are also the things that are using

00:58:00   the metaphors wrong.

00:58:01   And those feel like alien intrusions on your platform.

00:58:05   And when I use Streamlabs or something,

00:58:08   I'm like, oh, this is a cross-platform application

00:58:11   that is not really made for the Mac,

00:58:13   even though it works on the Mac and it doesn't work like it,

00:58:15   One Passer doesn't feel like that.

00:58:17   Anyway, the other thing One Passer represents

00:58:19   is a lot of people who don't like changes

00:58:21   in how software business models work.

00:58:23   And I get it, right?

00:58:24   This is a version of the Marco Arment is sad

00:58:28   because the HomePods are dying and there's no new HomePod

00:58:33   and there's no other product in the market

00:58:35   that really fits what a HomePod is.

00:58:37   And so even though not a lot of people bought HomePods,

00:58:40   the people who bought them liked them

00:58:42   and there is no replacement and that sucks.

00:58:44   And that's totally true.

00:58:45   Well, with 1Password it's, they went to a subscription model

00:58:48   and they put everything in the cloud.

00:58:50   And so if you're somebody who doesn't want a subscription

00:58:52   or you don't want your stuff synced into their cloud,

00:58:56   you can't use 1PasswordAid.

00:58:58   And I would say, yes, that is,

00:59:02   I'm not one of those people, I don't mind the subscription

00:59:04   and I don't mind the cloud syncing, it's very convenient.

00:59:07   But if you're somebody who has been left behind

00:59:08   by changes in 1Password's business model,

00:59:10   also plenty of reason to be angry, I get it,

00:59:12   perfectly natural.

00:59:14   That all said, if you take those things out of the equation

00:59:17   and you don't have to, but I'm going to right now,

00:59:20   the app is actually pretty good,

00:59:22   It's got some really nice features.

00:59:23   It's got this new like quick access bar.

00:59:27   That's kind of like a launch bar or spotlight bar that lets you very quickly

00:59:30   look up any password and copy it to your clipboard.

00:59:33   It's got an autofill feature that uses the accessibility settings in Mac OS.

00:59:36   So that if you're in an app that's asking for a password, You can very quickly

00:59:41   auto-fill that apps with a password out of one password, which you couldn't

00:59:46   do before, which is really nice.

00:59:48   So there's a lot of good new features in it.

00:59:50   And it works really well for me.

00:59:53   And I've got this touch ID on this keyboard

00:59:57   that's Velcroed under the bottom of my desk.

00:59:58   You maybe you've heard of that, Myke.

01:00:01   I haven't yet taken it apart

01:00:02   and reduced it to just a button.

01:00:04   And that, so authenticating with touch ID is super easy.

01:00:06   I know that's not a new feature,

01:00:07   but like it's new to me to be able to do that.

01:00:11   And yeah, so I'm pretty happy with it.

01:00:13   I think it's actually a pretty good update

01:00:15   that adds some very useful Mac features

01:00:18   and like the autofill that they have to use Apple's,

01:00:22   you know, frameworks in order to do that.

01:00:24   And they did that.

01:00:25   So it doesn't feel like a tossed off cross-platform product

01:00:28   from a company that doesn't care about the Mac.

01:00:30   And so we have the background of what they did,

01:00:35   but if you look at what the product is,

01:00:37   I don't think it fits the narrative.

01:00:39   - Do you think this past key future

01:00:42   would be a concern for 1Password?

01:00:44   - Yeah, I mean, there's this question of,

01:00:47   okay, if we're in the passwordless future,

01:00:49   what do password managers represent?

01:00:51   I think what you're seeing is, well, one,

01:00:54   they are positioning themselves for more kind of like group

01:00:57   and corporate use where you've got shared identities

01:00:59   and shared information across, which makes sense.

01:01:03   And I think if you are a smart product manager,

01:01:07   you are looking at the development

01:01:09   of the passwordless future and saying to yourself,

01:01:13   where does this fall down?

01:01:14   Where are the edge cases here?

01:01:16   And it's just like when Apple Sherlock something, right?

01:01:18   It's like they already know

01:01:19   that Apple is doing a password manager.

01:01:21   So like it's, so who do we serve?

01:01:24   We serve people for whom the built-in system stuff

01:01:26   is not enough.

01:01:27   So my guess is that there's absolutely still gonna be

01:01:30   a business here because of the limitations

01:01:33   of the new password lists sort of system,

01:01:36   the all the edge cases, all the yeah,

01:01:38   but what if you're in an organization that needs this,

01:01:40   or you have to share your identity here,

01:01:43   or you need to share this identity automatically

01:01:47   and this is a way to do that,

01:01:49   I'm sure they will find ways.

01:01:50   But I don't know the details enough of the new stuff

01:01:52   to know what those are, but I'm sure they exist.

01:01:57   And I'm sure that it's on their roadmap

01:01:58   to make sure that there is an audience

01:02:03   that will pay them for whatever they offer.

01:02:06   That all said, it may be that the percentage,

01:02:09   it's already the case that the percentage of people

01:02:11   who are on the Mac or iOS who need one password

01:02:13   is less than it was before because of Apple,

01:02:16   because Apple has built a password manager in

01:02:18   and it's pretty good.

01:02:19   And assuming Apple keeps doing,

01:02:20   working on that and improving that,

01:02:23   it's going to make the percentage of people

01:02:25   who need to buy a password manager on macOS and iOS

01:02:28   smaller and smaller.

01:02:29   And this passwordless thing will make it smaller and smaller.

01:02:33   Doesn't mean there isn't a good business there.

01:02:36   But I think one of the reasons that they're focused on

01:02:39   growing their small business and enterprise part of 1Password is because those are places

01:02:49   with more stringent security requirements and complex situations that will probably

01:02:57   be more likely to need something like 1Password than a random person who just needs to save

01:03:03   their passwords. They know that those people are going to increasingly just use what's

01:03:07   built in and so you need to find the edge cases. I'm sure they will.

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01:05:36   Let's finish up today's episode as we always do with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:05:42   Dotisopropyl, which sounds like it, I don't know what that is, but it sounds like some kind of

01:05:48   chemical. I think it's dot isopropyl like rubbing alcohol, dot. No, I'm going with dotisopropyl.

01:05:54   - I don't think that's it, but okay.

01:05:57   - Have you, Jason, looked into any news reading service

01:06:00   for your e-reader?

01:06:01   Do you send longer articles to it via email file transfer?

01:06:05   Basically, do you ever read stuff that's not books, right,

01:06:08   on your e-readers?

01:06:09   And if you do, how do you send stuff there?

01:06:12   - I do, and since I'm using a Kobo,

01:06:14   Kobo has Pocket built in.

01:06:18   So I just use Pocket.

01:06:20   I have a Pocket extension on my devices

01:06:24   and Safari on the Mac,

01:06:26   there's a pocket button in the toolbar

01:06:28   and on iOS you just do share to pocket

01:06:31   and it shares it.

01:06:32   And then those sync with the Kobo

01:06:35   in the little pocket app basically

01:06:37   that's on the Kobo. - That's cool.

01:06:38   - And it's, Kobo doesn't have an app store of any kind

01:06:42   but it has pocket integration.

01:06:44   So it's like a little weird app inside of Kobo.

01:06:48   But that's what I do.

01:06:49   If there's a really long article

01:06:50   and I'm like, oh man, I'm not gonna read this now.

01:06:52   and it's a long article that it's probably evergreen.

01:06:56   I send that to Pocket and it shows up in the Kobo

01:06:58   and I can read it there.

01:07:00   - Is that all you use Pocket for?

01:07:02   - Yeah.

01:07:03   - Yeah, so you don't use like a read later service

01:07:05   for stuff anymore?

01:07:07   - I haven't used a read later service

01:07:08   for stuff like that in a long time.

01:07:09   I used to use Instapaper and send it to the Kindle

01:07:12   when I had the Kindle,

01:07:13   but otherwise I'll just leave a tab open and read it

01:07:18   if I'm gonna read it sometime soon.

01:07:20   It's really for longer stuff

01:07:21   where I'm just not gonna get to it.

01:07:22   And I'm like, wow, this is a really long article

01:07:24   and I'd like to read it,

01:07:25   but I don't know when that's gonna happen.

01:07:27   And then that's when I'll send it off.

01:07:29   I do a lot of reading in NetNewswire now.

01:07:31   I know I wrote about this,

01:07:32   but like newsletters and stuff get collected in there.

01:07:35   And if it's a sub stack, it's also in the sub stack app.

01:07:38   So I've got a bunch of other places where I do reading

01:07:40   that the Kobo is really only for books

01:07:43   and the occasional pocket saved long article.

01:07:49   And honestly, I've thought about making it be that

01:07:52   instead of using Pocket,

01:07:53   I just use some method of emailing that article

01:07:56   to my NetNewsWire instead.

01:08:00   But that brings-

01:08:01   - So, remind me, does NetNewsWire have an email address

01:08:04   that you set in say, Substack or are you doing it-

01:08:07   - No, it's your RSS service.

01:08:09   So I'm using Feedbin.

01:08:10   So Feedbin has a- - So sending it to Feedbin.

01:08:12   That's it. - An email address

01:08:14   that I can send anything to.

01:08:16   The problem is with an article,

01:08:17   you've got to grab the text out of the article and email it and that can be difficult because

01:08:22   the websites will fight you and pockets already taken care of it so I just sort of embrace

01:08:28   that and send it to the kobo.

01:08:30   I just wish everybody would do what you and Max Barkey and Max Stories do where you just

01:08:38   create an RSS feed for members like yeah that's what I wished everybody would do that like

01:08:44   that's what I want. I have, I use Feedbin, but I don't want to do all of that. I just

01:08:49   want an RSS feed instead of the email. If there's anybody out there from Substack, do

01:08:55   an RSS feed, please. Like you can authenticate it, you can tie it to the membership. Well,

01:09:00   they don't want to because they want you to use their app now, right? But I don't want

01:09:04   to use their app. I know, and neither do I, but that's what they want. They want you to

01:09:08   use their app. Yeah, I'm sure they do. So instead, I'm forwarding all of their mail

01:09:11   to feed bin and doing that instead.

01:09:14   And that's fine, that works fine.

01:09:17   I do, you know, my morning session,

01:09:19   my morning reading when I'm drinking my tea

01:09:21   and eating my breakfast,

01:09:22   I am looking at newsletters and RSS feeds

01:09:25   in that newswire on my iPad.

01:09:27   So basically that's the answer is,

01:09:30   most of my reading happens on my iPad,

01:09:31   but there are longer articles that I will send

01:09:34   to Pocket and read on the Kobo.

01:09:36   - Rick writes in and says,

01:09:40   "Have either of you tried the Keychron Q3 keyboard?

01:09:43   It looks like a solid upgrade for my current K2 model."

01:09:47   Neither of us have tried it.

01:09:48   I can speak for both of us on that one.

01:09:50   - You were my keyboard representative here.

01:09:52   - Yes, no problem.

01:09:54   But what I will say is the answer is yes,

01:09:56   it will be an upgrade.

01:09:57   The Q models of Keychron keyboards

01:10:00   are the "custom" quote unquote versions of these.

01:10:05   They are made of better materials.

01:10:08   They are made in such a way that you can customize them

01:10:11   in ways that you would want to,

01:10:12   with different switches, different key caps,

01:10:14   that kind of stuff.

01:10:15   It is their premium offering.

01:10:17   I have used the Q1,

01:10:19   Jason has that Q1,

01:10:20   and has used it way more than me.

01:10:22   They learned a lot from that initial Q1,

01:10:25   the new Keychron Q1 is updated,

01:10:30   and then the Q2 and Q3 were both made with those learnings.

01:10:34   Just about some tolerances, some sound stuff,

01:10:36   they've made some great improvements.

01:10:38   So if you are using any of Keychron's K series of boards

01:10:41   and enjoy it, but would want something more,

01:10:44   move to their Q series of boards.

01:10:46   They are great.

01:10:47   They're like legitimately great,

01:10:48   available constantly for what you get,

01:10:53   incredible prices, like for what it takes to get something

01:10:58   outside of what Keychron's making,

01:11:00   you can go into many different areas as I do

01:11:03   and get way more particular with it.

01:11:05   but if you're just gonna get started,

01:11:07   they have a bunch of colors, they're really good,

01:11:08   and so you can check them out.

01:11:10   There are companies that do things that I much prefer,

01:11:15   but if you're getting started

01:11:16   or you're looking for some kind of in-stock thing,

01:11:18   Keychron do a great job.

01:11:19   Morky asks, aside from the Apple Watch,

01:11:25   do either of you use smart health monitoring devices

01:11:28   like scales or sleep trackers or blood pressure monitors

01:11:31   or anything like that?

01:11:32   Do you use any of this kind of stuff?

01:11:34   I have, I think I mentioned it here before.

01:11:37   I have a blood pressure monitor that is smart

01:11:40   in the sense that it's got Bluetooth

01:11:41   and it will sync with an app that puts it in Apple Health.

01:11:44   Although the real point to it is that I put it on my arm

01:11:47   and I press the button and I can get

01:11:48   a blood pressure reading, which is nice.

01:11:51   - Do you know the name of the company that makes that?

01:11:53   - Oh, no.

01:11:56   - Do you think you could find it

01:11:57   so I could put it in the show notes at least?

01:11:58   - Yeah, I can put it in the show notes.

01:12:00   That is probably the only,

01:12:03   other than the Apple Watch, right,

01:12:04   is the only thing that I'm using for that.

01:12:06   - I had the Wything scales, you know,

01:12:10   like the old school Bluetooth scales

01:12:15   that everybody has, I guess,

01:12:17   if you have these kinds of things.

01:12:19   Mine are Wything scales, they got rebranded,

01:12:21   the app got rebranded to Nokia

01:12:23   and now it's back to Wything again, which is hilarious.

01:12:26   The guy, in case you're not familiar,

01:12:28   the guy who made that company,

01:12:30   was bought by, the company was bought by Nokia,

01:12:33   that guy then bought it back from Nokia for less than he sold it to them for and

01:12:39   it's back to being YThings again and so I've kind of gone a complete 360 with

01:12:45   mine but yeah I like them they're just like a good scales and I just like that

01:12:50   I don't need to do anything and it automatically updates my stuff in Apple

01:12:56   Health if I want to do my weight and all that kind of stuff on it so it's great.

01:13:00   And now we have the answer.

01:13:01   My blood pressure monitor that I bought

01:13:06   is the Omron Evolve.

01:13:08   - Ooh.

01:13:09   - Yes, well, you know, what you're gonna do,

01:13:13   you gotta evolve.

01:13:15   And it's a, yeah, it's a Bluetooth syncing fancy thing.

01:13:20   - Omron Evolve, look at that.

01:13:23   Oh, it looks scary to me.

01:13:26   - Oh, it's like, yeah, you better put it on your wrist

01:13:29   it'll zap you with a laser or something. Evolve without an E. Without an E, no. They've evolved

01:13:35   past the need for an E. Who needs it? At the beginning, at the end, the beginning still has

01:13:39   one but the redundant E has been dropped. And Jajura asks, "MacPro, do you have some price bets

01:13:47   and are you going to apply the Snell algorithm for pricing?" What is the Snell algorithm? Is it

01:13:55   double it and add 50 or something? What is it? It's no, it's consider the price you want,

01:14:02   raise the price by a, I mean it should probably be a percentage, but raise the price by $50 or $100

01:14:10   or $200. For a Mac Pro I'd say raise the price by $200 from that, maybe $500 from that, and then

01:14:16   and round up.

01:14:17   Basically, the Snell algorithm is more of an art form

01:14:23   and it's find the price you want,

01:14:27   increase it to a painful price that you don't want,

01:14:30   but you might pay for, and then raise it a second time.

01:14:34   And that will be the price.

01:14:35   - Okay. - It's not always the case.

01:14:38   I applied this algorithm to the studio display

01:14:40   and I came up with something like $2,000

01:14:43   and it was less than that, it was 1600.

01:14:45   So that, you know, sometimes Apple surprises you.

01:14:48   Mac Pro, you know, Mac Studio,

01:14:50   to start with a Mac Studio, what?

01:14:53   You've got to start at 5,000

01:14:56   with a high-end model, right?

01:14:57   - Four.

01:14:58   - Is it 4,000 for the base?

01:15:02   - The Ultra.

01:15:03   - Ultra? - Yeah.

01:15:04   - 'Cause I think to figure out what the Mac Pro price is,

01:15:09   you have to start with the Mac Studio Ultra.

01:15:13   - That's a good point.

01:15:14   I wasn't thinking about that.

01:15:15   but yes, of course you have to start with that, right?

01:15:17   And that's 20 core CPU, 48 core GPU.

01:15:21   That's 64.

01:15:22   - Yeah, so we're gonna add a thousand.

01:15:25   We're gonna add a thousand to it.

01:15:26   - Okay.

01:15:27   - Because we're gonna go to the 64 core GPU,

01:15:30   32 core neural engine.

01:15:32   - Okay.

01:15:32   - And I'm gonna say that's $5,000.

01:15:35   So I think the Mac Pro could not start for less than $5,000.

01:15:40   - It currently starts at 5999, so.

01:15:43   - The Intel model.

01:15:44   - Mm-hmm. - Yeah.

01:15:45   So I'm gonna say 6,000 is the least it will cost.

01:15:50   And that will be for a disappointing version

01:15:53   that's got fewer cores than you'd like

01:15:55   for your $6,000 Mac Pro.

01:15:57   - And like 64 gigabytes of RAM, right?

01:16:01   - Yeah. - It's not,

01:16:01   it's gonna be pretty sad.

01:16:03   - Yeah, and they might start it at 128

01:16:05   or something like that. - Oh my God, Jason,

01:16:07   it currently, the six grand one, I forgot about this,

01:16:09   currently starts at 32.

01:16:11   - Oh, okay, well then we'll say they start at 64.

01:16:14   So what we're saying is it might be 6,000 to start.

01:16:19   - Gigabytes of SSD storage.

01:16:21   That's what it starts at now.

01:16:22   - Yeah, that's not even gonna be, yeah.

01:16:24   So actually I think that shows you something, right?

01:16:26   Whereas the level of the content in the base model Mac Pro

01:16:29   is actually not great, which is why nobody,

01:16:32   I mean, people buy it,

01:16:33   but they don't expect you to buy it at that level.

01:16:36   They expect it. - It is absurd right now

01:16:38   how much of a better deal the Mac studio is.

01:16:40   The Mac Studio, when it's like,

01:16:43   if we bump it up to the 20 core one,

01:16:45   which we think would be the start,

01:16:47   you get 64 gigabytes of memory and one terabyte of storage.

01:16:52   - For five grand.

01:16:52   - For five grand.

01:16:54   - Yeah.

01:16:55   Yeah, so more storage, more memory, it's faster.

01:16:59   It's five grand.

01:17:01   So yeah, I'm gonna say to answer the question,

01:17:04   I think maybe it will be 6,000.

01:17:06   - I think six too.

01:17:08   I think that they would just say like,

01:17:10   it's the same price.

01:17:10   I don't think they're gonna bring it any closer

01:17:14   to the Mac studio. - No.

01:17:15   - That doesn't make any sense

01:17:16   'cause otherwise why put the Mac studio in there?

01:17:19   - But it's gonna be for a base model

01:17:20   that's gonna have disappointing base specs.

01:17:22   And so you're gonna say,

01:17:22   "Oh, but just for a thousand more."

01:17:24   But then you're gonna look at the Mac studio

01:17:25   and you're gonna look at the Mac Pro and you're like,

01:17:27   "Oh, but I could actually get more computer for less."

01:17:31   'Cause I do think that the argument is gonna be

01:17:34   the Mac Pro is really for people who need the Mac Pro

01:17:37   and that the Mac Studio is gonna steal from it.

01:17:40   - You know what?

01:17:41   - What?

01:17:42   - Maybe the creation of the Mac Studio

01:17:45   means it is absolutely pointless to even bother

01:17:49   with that starting configuration of the Mac Pro anymore.

01:17:52   - I mean, for people who need whatever the Mac Pro

01:17:54   is gonna deliver in terms of expandability.

01:17:57   - But I could imagine them maybe even starting it

01:18:02   at seven or eight.

01:18:04   - Could be.

01:18:05   Well, you're doing the SNL algorithm now, right?

01:18:06   So what I'm saying is I think that 6,000 is your,

01:18:10   that's what the Mac Pro costs now price.

01:18:12   And the question is, are they gonna try to hold that,

01:18:14   but it'll be disappointing?

01:18:16   Or are they not gonna make a disappointing base config?

01:18:20   And instead they're gonna kick it up to 7,000,

01:18:23   which means that it's 8,000 or 10,000,

01:18:26   depending on how you wanna handle it.

01:18:27   But if I had to put a bet down in one price,

01:18:31   I would be, I would say 6,000 or 59.99,

01:18:35   'cause that's the existing price.

01:18:37   If I were to set an over under though,

01:18:39   I would put it higher, right?

01:18:40   If I was setting an over under,

01:18:42   I would put it at 6999 maybe.

01:18:46   - I think I'm gonna say my number

01:18:50   would be starting at 6999.

01:18:52   Like that's what I think it could be.

01:18:53   - Yeah, and I'll go 5999, but it'll be expensive.

01:18:57   And like I said, I also wanna reinforce,

01:19:00   it'll be expensive and it'll be for a config

01:19:02   that you'll look at and go, "Oh, well, I don't want that."

01:19:05   (laughs)

01:19:06   So, yeah.

01:19:07   - I wonder if the Ultra has some kind of minimum amounts

01:19:14   of RAM and storage that it needs.

01:19:19   I wonder, I don't know.

01:19:20   - Well, it will because it's two M1s, right?

01:19:25   So it has to have the memory,

01:19:29   minimum memory of each of those, so times two.

01:19:32   But having fewer GPUs or fewer cores,

01:19:39   all of that is possible.

01:19:41   I also anticipate that it will be ultra only the Mac Pro.

01:19:46   So ultra or ultra times two, whatever that is.

01:19:49   - Ultra max.

01:19:52   - Yeah, mega ultra.

01:19:53   - Do you think if they do that,

01:19:59   they will give it a different name?

01:20:00   Like there will be another name

01:20:02   or do you think they will just be like it's

01:20:05   - I mean they're maniacs in terms of naming.

01:20:08   - Maybe it's the Mac Pro maniac, you know?

01:20:10   - I would recommend that they just call it two M1 ultras

01:20:15   but I guess it really depends on how it's built.

01:20:19   If it really is the four interconnected thing

01:20:22   that was rumored but seems to not be happening for the M1

01:20:26   then they could call that something else.

01:20:28   if they want a step above ultra just to be monsters.

01:20:32   - Like, I just wonder if it's even necessary,

01:20:35   like it's just the ultra, but here are the specs.

01:20:39   Like at a certain point, do you need to brand everything?

01:20:42   - Right, well, I mean, and even if you did,

01:20:45   you wouldn't need to brand it to say it's two M1 ultras

01:20:48   or M2 ultras or whatever it is.

01:20:50   You wouldn't need to necessarily say

01:20:52   it's the new M1 ultra max,

01:20:56   especially 'cause you're marketing to people

01:20:58   buying a very, very expensive computer.

01:21:00   Do you need marketing of that kind at that price point?

01:21:03   I don't think so.

01:21:04   - Yeah, considering it is likely that that chip

01:21:07   will probably only ever be in that computer,

01:21:10   I would expect.

01:21:13   I don't think it needs its own name.

01:21:18   Where the Ultra is going to find its way into other stuff,

01:21:21   I feel like.

01:21:22   It's not just gonna be in the Mac Studio,

01:21:23   it will be in the Mac Pro, it will be in an iMac one day,

01:21:26   could be in a MacBook Pro one day.

01:21:28   I can't imagine whatever that top of the line chip is

01:21:32   really finding its way into other stuff.

01:21:34   Maybe the iMac Pro, but I doubt it.

01:21:37   I don't think it's going to be necessary.

01:21:39   So yeah, so we'll see, we'll see.

01:21:42   We'll see maybe in four weeks, not in a month.

01:21:45   Four weeks, maybe we'll find out in four weeks.

01:21:49   If you would like to send in a question

01:21:50   for us to answer on the show,

01:21:51   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUPGRADE

01:21:53   or use question mark #AskUPGRADE

01:21:55   Relay FM members of Discord that you get access to if you sign up for Upgrade Plus. Go to GetUpgradePlus.com

01:22:00   and you will get longer ad-free versions of every single episode of Upgrade. Which you know could be

01:22:07   great as we're moving into peak season, then summer of fun, then peak season two you know like there's

01:22:12   a lot of great content you can get even more of it with no ads at GetUpgradePlus.com. But thank you

01:22:18   to our sponsors for this week's episode FitBud, Capital One and Bombas and of course thank you

01:22:23   you for listening. If you want to keep up with us in the meantime, you can find us online.

01:22:27   You can find Jason at SixColors.com and he is @JSNELL. Jason hosts many shows here on

01:22:33   Reel AFM and on The Incomparable. You can find me, I am @imike, I am YKE and I also

01:22:39   host many shows here at Reel AFM. You can go check one out and maybe add something new

01:22:44   to your podcast subscription list. We'll be back next week. Till then, say goodbye,

01:22:50   and snow. Goodbye everybody.

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