403: This Episode is Forbidden


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 403.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace, Capital One, and Doppler.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi, Jason.

00:00:21   -Hi, Myke. 403, forbidden.

00:00:23   -Okay. This episode is forbidden.

00:00:25   -It is forbidden by web servers.

00:00:27   - I don't remember if we spoke about this on the show

00:00:30   or not, but obviously next week's 404, right?

00:00:33   - Yeah. - Episode 404.

00:00:34   - It's big, and get ready for 420, 'cause man, woo!

00:00:37   - Oh, we're gonna blaze that one.

00:00:39   - Oh man, also 403, the area code of Calgary,

00:00:43   Alberta, Canada, so hi.

00:00:45   Shout out to Calgarians.

00:00:46   - The first time we had a episode 404, I was very nervous.

00:00:51   - Yeah, you thought you were gonna break the internet

00:00:52   with your 404?

00:00:53   - I was just worried that the episode would not publish,

00:00:55   but it went through perfectly fine.

00:00:57   - Yeah, Myke, but you know, technically that's like saying,

00:01:00   don't do an episode 13, it's bad luck.

00:01:03   Whoa, no. - This wasn't a bad luck thing.

00:01:05   This was a legitimately, can our website handle this thing?

00:01:08   - No, no, but it was that it's the same level though.

00:01:11   It's literally the same level.

00:01:13   It's like saying, if I publish episode 420,

00:01:15   will I be arrested?

00:01:16   It's like, no, they're not related.

00:01:19   The flow of, if you can put emoji in your titles,

00:01:24   you can have an episode 404 and it'll be okay.

00:01:27   But I get the trepidation.

00:01:28   Like I said, maybe there,

00:01:30   I bet there's a podcast out there

00:01:31   that won't do an episode 13.

00:01:32   Just skip right over it, 'cause they're superstitious.

00:01:34   Could be.

00:01:36   Anyway, shout out to Calgary and also forbidden.

00:01:40   - I have a #snowtalk question for you,

00:01:42   which maybe some people would have wanted for this so far.

00:01:45   Mark's question is, "Do you use the skip intro button?"

00:01:48   - Do I use the skip intro button?

00:01:51   Okay, so our friend Todd Visserie,

00:01:53   - I put this question in specifically to trigger Todd Vaziri.

00:01:58   - Yeah.

00:02:01   - 'Cause I knew it would.

00:02:02   - Todd, you know, the original question was gonna be

00:02:04   about what bottled iced tea I like.

00:02:05   And unfortunately I don't drink bottled iced tea.

00:02:07   So I have no preferences 'cause I literally don't drink it.

00:02:10   My daughter drinks Arizona iced tea,

00:02:12   but I don't drink iced tea that I don't make myself.

00:02:15   - You have now answered the question

00:02:17   that you asked me not to put in the show.

00:02:19   - I know.

00:02:20   - Why are we doing this?

00:02:21   Why are we in this?

00:02:22   - Now it's much more interesting

00:02:22   Because now it's that we've replaced that question with this question that will bother

00:02:26   Todd, because Todd, you know, works in the business and thinks that you should watch

00:02:31   the intros and you should watch the credits.

00:02:33   And my answer is not going to please Todd, because if it is a long credit sequence that

00:02:39   I know by heart, I skip it, because—unless I love it.

00:02:45   I mean, I guess that is what it comes down to is, if I love it, I will watch it, because

00:02:48   I love getting in the mood that the intro sets to me.

00:02:52   but honestly there are some intros that are just boring

00:02:55   or I don't like them, I find them unpleasant.

00:02:59   And I skip those because I will watch them all once.

00:03:02   I have a policy, new season of a show,

00:03:05   you watch the skip,

00:03:06   you watch the opening credits one time straight through.

00:03:09   - You watch the skip intro.

00:03:10   - You watch the skip intro button, come and go,

00:03:12   see what I did there?

00:03:13   Come and go and you just keep going through it.

00:03:16   But after that, if it does not please you, I skip it.

00:03:20   So with some of them I skip

00:03:21   some of them. I know it really does depend on whether I find them disturbing in a bad

00:03:28   way or whether I feel like they're a great... There are definitely intros that I'd never

00:03:32   skip and then there are ones where I'm like, "Yeah, I don't need to see that again. I know

00:03:36   what you're doing there," and it goes on. Because streaming series have no rigid time

00:03:41   constraints. Remember, broadcast started not doing opening credit sequences. They started

00:03:45   doing like just showing the credits over the beginning of the show or like famously, Frasier.

00:03:50   I'm getting back into Todd's Good Graces now.

00:03:53   Frasier just had the shortest theme song ever at the beginning where they just showed the

00:03:56   Seattle skyline and went "doo doo doo doo doo doo" and that was it.

00:04:00   Well and then they also had a bangin' final credits song that you couldn't miss.

00:04:03   Well they did.

00:04:04   They did, absolutely, but it was over the end credits.

00:04:08   But now with streaming you just have endless amount of time so people make these minute

00:04:13   long opening credit sequences and unless they vary from week to week, like Game of Thrones

00:04:19   did that and that was kind of fun because we would always watch the Game of Thrones

00:04:22   credit sequence because it would tell you like what the settings were for that episode.

00:04:26   Like a lot of these things that are on streaming now they just have very long opening credit

00:04:31   sequences because no one cares. It's why not? Make it as long as you like it doesn't matter

00:04:36   and some of them are boring. So the answer is, Mark, I don't drink bottled iced tea.

00:04:44   Oh wait I do occasionally judiciously use the skip intro button. Todd Bezery please

00:04:49   forgive me at least I mentioned Frasier and uh Mash I guess Todd like Todd and I both love Mash

00:04:56   so I'll throw that in there too so he forgives me yeah I will watch the credits if the credits

00:05:02   are good if you want me to watch them make them good you know what I mean both the intro and the

00:05:07   credit opening credits final like so like uh Ted Lasso watch it Peacemaker loved it just every

00:05:12   every single time, more of it please.

00:05:15   Severance, incredible.

00:05:16   So if you want me to watch it, do a good job of it.

00:05:21   - Yeah, and have it not be, it can be beautiful,

00:05:24   but if it's boring, that's like,

00:05:26   do I wanna take that ride again?

00:05:27   Does it set the mood?

00:05:28   Do I wanna take that ride again?

00:05:29   There's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.

00:05:31   I get it.

00:05:32   And sometimes it's boring and you just gotta skip it.

00:05:36   That's just how it is.

00:05:38   - And look, I know people worked on it, right?

00:05:41   I know that, I know.

00:05:42   - I know.

00:05:43   - I actually like it when the skip intro button

00:05:45   takes you to the writer and director credits at the end,

00:05:48   because those vary from episode to episode,

00:05:51   and I like to see who the writers and the director

00:05:53   on the episode are.

00:05:54   But I don't need to see, like literally,

00:05:56   I don't need to see every executive producer

00:05:58   on the show every week.

00:06:00   I don't, I'm sorry, I don't.

00:06:02   - And it's gotta be a mixture for me of song and intro,

00:06:05   'cause like I love the opening credits theme for "Mad Men,"

00:06:09   but the intro animation is one of the most boring

00:06:12   ever committed to film.

00:06:13   - Yeah.

00:06:14   - You know, so it's like, you gotta find the balance, right?

00:06:17   You gotta do both.

00:06:17   That should be somebody's job. - There are a lot of rules.

00:06:19   Yeah.

00:06:21   - If you would like to send in a question

00:06:22   for us to answer on a future episode of the show,

00:06:24   just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snow Talk

00:06:26   or use question mark Snow Talk

00:06:28   in the Relay FM members discord.

00:06:29   You put in our document, Jason,

00:06:32   that you had some follow up on CNN+.

00:06:35   - I do, I do.

00:06:36   We talked about this a lot on Downstream,

00:06:38   very fine podcast that you should check out

00:06:40   if you'll care about the sort of upstream things

00:06:43   that we talk about here, that's the podcast,

00:06:45   all about that with me and Julia Alexander.

00:06:48   I did sign up for CNN+ for a month just to try it out

00:06:51   because we talked about it so much on downstream

00:06:53   and I'll leave my, it's a, I get why they did it,

00:06:58   but it's a misguided kind of mis-executed, I think,

00:07:00   and probably doomed thing that'll get rolled into HBO Max,

00:07:04   probably at some point.

00:07:05   But what I wanna point out here,

00:07:09   because I thought it was funny, is that in addition to the fact that it's a news product

00:07:14   without a linear news channel streaming, they can't put CNN on because CNN has carriage

00:07:21   agreements with cable and satellite providers and they make a lot of money because every

00:07:24   single cable and satellite TV subscriber, some percentage of their or some amount out

00:07:29   of their bill goes in the pockets of CNN. And so you can't, if they took it to streaming,

00:07:37   it would, I think, violate their contracts or they'd lose all their money. So they can't

00:07:41   do that. But they didn't create like a CNN+ parallel stream, which I find infuriating

00:07:47   because that's one of the things you want from news is let me turn on the news. And,

00:07:53   you know, its pricing is a little bit weird and it's getting launched during the merger

00:07:57   of WarnerMedia with Discovery, which has just happened now. So there's the new Warner Brothers

00:08:03   Are they gonna wanna keep it separate?

00:08:07   Are they gonna merge everything into HBO Max?

00:08:09   - Who owns CNN Plus then?

00:08:11   - CNN Plus is owned by, CNN was owned by Warner Media,

00:08:16   which is now, yeah, it was,

00:08:19   they bought all of Turner Broadcasting,

00:08:21   which includes TBS, TNT, and--

00:08:23   - Oh, okay.

00:08:25   - Right, and they moved all of that inside,

00:08:27   you know, to network.

00:08:30   And so now it's all part of Warner Brothers discovery.

00:08:34   And so there's a lot of things about it

00:08:36   that are like kind of bumpy in terms of its launch.

00:08:38   And they launched with like a catalog of like

00:08:40   their docu-series that CNN ran on Sunday nights.

00:08:43   So Anthony Bourdain or like Stanley Tucci going to Italy,

00:08:47   like all that stuff is there.

00:08:49   And then they've got some daily shows,

00:08:50   but it's very much like after Wolf Blitzer

00:08:52   does two hours on CNN,

00:08:54   he does a half hour show on CNN Plus

00:08:56   that you can watch live, but it's just archived.

00:09:00   And, you know, I've got lots of,

00:09:02   there are lots of things about it

00:09:03   that are complicated and weird,

00:09:05   and I get why they're doing it

00:09:07   'cause you don't wanna miss the streaming bonanza

00:09:09   with your brand, but you're also preventing

00:09:12   going all in on streaming

00:09:13   because you can't move your cash cow,

00:09:16   which is the CNN cable product, off.

00:09:19   And so what do you do?

00:09:21   And the answer is they're kinda doing a little bit of,

00:09:24   a little bit, but not fully committing to it.

00:09:26   And it's like, I think they're falling in this

00:09:28   uncanny valley between fully committing and just saying,

00:09:30   we're gonna milk the existing thing until it dies.

00:09:33   But on top of all of that, somebody in a Slack I'm in

00:09:38   pointed to an interview with Jason Sudeikis

00:09:42   about Ted Lasso with Rex Chapman,

00:09:47   who was a basketball player who is now popular on Twitter

00:09:49   and they gave him a show on CNN+.

00:09:52   - Can I just say I cannot stand

00:09:54   Rex Chapman's Twitter account.

00:09:55   I feel like I see retweets to this account all the time

00:09:58   and I've muted the account because a lot of the time

00:10:01   it's just like low effort content

00:10:03   that for some reason goes really viral.

00:10:05   - Yeah, that's his whole Twitter stream

00:10:07   is low effort content that he didn't create that goes viral.

00:10:10   - I'm sorry if like, you know, I've upset,

00:10:12   if I've like said, you know, one of those like

00:10:15   counsel me for my controversial take kind of moments,

00:10:18   but like it does my head in.

00:10:19   No, it's just as bad as some of these other accounts

00:10:23   that are like super 70s sports or like there are a lot of--

00:10:26   - Like barstool and stuff like that is what it feels like.

00:10:28   - Yeah, there are lots of garbage Twitter accounts

00:10:31   and a lot of things with low quality content

00:10:32   or just viral content that's getting passed through

00:10:34   and Rex Chapman is one of those.

00:10:35   I also muted Rex Chapman at some point

00:10:37   'cause I just didn't wanna see that stuff.

00:10:38   - Oh Jason, I love how in sync we are about these kinds

00:10:40   of things. - We are always in sync.

00:10:42   So anyway, he's got a show and he interviewed Jason Sudeikis

00:10:46   and like Jason Sudeikis played basketball in Kansas

00:10:48   and Rex Chapman played basketball and then was in the NBA.

00:10:52   And okay, so I'm like, all right, I'm gonna watch this

00:10:57   'cause it's a Jason Sudeikis interview.

00:10:58   It's on CNN Plus, I have CNN Plus.

00:11:01   And this is all I just wanna say as a podcaster,

00:11:04   their entire interview is in the bar

00:11:07   that basically is the inspiration for the bar.

00:11:10   It's the bar in Ted Lasso, it's in Richmond.

00:11:12   It's the bar in Ted Lasso, right?

00:11:14   That's where they're doing the interview.

00:11:16   actual bar, actual pub in London, right?

00:11:21   There's a hum in the background of the entire interview.

00:11:26   Like the whole interview, they're talking to each other

00:11:28   in the background, you hear,

00:11:29   "He just, it just keeps going."

00:11:33   And I had that moment where I thought, is this me?

00:11:35   Is it, did I do something wrong?

00:11:37   And then I realized they would cut away

00:11:38   from the bar interview and the hum would be gone.

00:11:40   And they'd go back to the bar interview

00:11:42   and the hum would be there.

00:11:43   And now, you know, if you're not a podcaster,

00:11:47   you're thinking to yourself,

00:11:48   well, obviously what happened is that there was some device

00:11:52   that was keeping the beer cold or who knows what

00:11:55   that was throwing out a hum in the background in the bar.

00:11:58   And what are you gonna do?

00:12:00   You're not gonna throw away your interview

00:12:02   with Jason Sudeikis.

00:12:03   So you're gonna use it

00:12:04   and you're just gonna have to grit your teeth

00:12:05   around the fact that there's a hum.

00:12:08   Except that there's like a piece of software

00:12:11   for a couple hundred dollars that I own, and that I think you own, and that lots of other

00:12:19   podcasters we now own. That is a very simple hum removal plug-in that will, you can do

00:12:26   it either automatically or you can zero in on the frequency, and it will take it out

00:12:29   and everything else will sound perfectly normal, and you will no longer have "hmm" going in

00:12:35   the background. And it was just a moment where I thought, "God, CNN+ can't even get their

00:12:40   production right. Like they can't even do this right. If they're putting on a half hour

00:12:47   episode of a show with an extended like 15 minute long, 20 minute long interview with

00:12:52   a star and nobody said, could we remove the awful background hum from the interview?

00:12:59   - I mean, I don't know why it wasn't thought about beforehand. I mean, you're in the pub.

00:13:03   Clearly they took charge of the pub for the night, right? Cause you can't just like have

00:13:09   "Oh, we're just doing an interview in here."

00:13:11   Like you can't,

00:13:12   'cause that's an uncontrollable environment, right?

00:13:14   So I just don't understand how they couldn't have fixed it.

00:13:18   - In the chat room, people are saying like,

00:13:19   "You can buy iZotope RX, the base model for $30 right now."

00:13:22   It's like, "Yeah, you know what?

00:13:23   "I think CNN+ could probably afford

00:13:26   "iZotope RX Professional even."

00:13:30   Right?

00:13:31   Like, which has even more impressive plugins,

00:13:33   but like a basic broadband hum removal is like table stakes.

00:13:37   And again, I know it's a little thing

00:13:39   that I'm picking on there, but like nobody at CNN+ said,

00:13:42   there's something wrong here.

00:13:44   We've blown our interview with this star

00:13:49   because the sound is crappy.

00:13:51   Like was nobody in, I just, I don't know.

00:13:54   Anyway, it made me laugh

00:13:55   because it's such a troubled launch for CNN+.

00:13:58   And I watched the whole Jason Sudeikis interview,

00:14:01   but I also just shook my head throughout the whole thing.

00:14:03   'Cause I can't not hear that hum in the background

00:14:07   and wonder why did nobody make any effort

00:14:10   to get the background hum out?

00:14:11   Because it's like, I've seen this on other things too.

00:14:13   There are other TV shows that occasionally I'll see

00:14:16   where there's something and I'll think,

00:14:18   oh, you've got a serious buzz on that microphone

00:14:21   that nobody fixed.

00:14:23   But at the highest levels, you don't usually

00:14:27   because people fix that stuff.

00:14:29   And this wasn't live, this was recorded.

00:14:32   So they had ample opportunity to fix it.

00:14:34   Anyway, I don't wanna beat them to death,

00:14:35   but it's really unprofessional and bad,

00:14:37   and CNN is bad and should feel bad.

00:14:39   CNN Plus is bad and should feel bad.

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00:16:38   Saddle up Jason Snow. Yeehaw.

00:16:40   We're heading down, it's time for a rumour round up.

00:16:43   Alrighty. And the Sheriff's back with a couple of reports

00:16:46   that we want to talk about this week. Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is currently

00:16:50   working on a variety of new health features for upcoming Apple Watch models. This is spread

00:16:56   out over the next couple of years. Some of this stuff has been mentioned in the past,

00:17:01   some stuff we have a little bit more detail on. So Apple has been working on a blood pressure

00:17:06   monitor for the Apple Watch. It has hit complications during their process so far, meaning it is

00:17:13   likely to be unavailable until at least 2024. Accuracy has been Apple's big issue. Now I

00:17:20   will mention here, the first time I ever heard about this I'm like, is it like an Apple Watch

00:17:25   band that like contracts, like how is that going to work?

00:17:30   It isn't as reliable as that.

00:17:32   They don't, this is not how the blood pressure stuff

00:17:35   would be monitored.

00:17:37   Samsung have a watch currently for sale

00:17:42   that does blood pressure monitoring.

00:17:44   And they use sensors, like the heartbeat stuff,

00:17:48   to give an approximation of your blood pressure.

00:17:53   I have to wonder, and this goes for some of these other

00:17:56   things here, is you have to use the lens of like,

00:17:58   what can be done in a fixed position on a wrist?

00:18:01   And what can't be done?

00:18:03   And I feel like I love that Apple is investigating

00:18:06   this stuff, but some of this stuff,

00:18:08   I think the answer is gonna be,

00:18:09   you probably need a different device that talks

00:18:13   to your iPhone or your Apple Watch and does the work for you

00:18:18   because some of this stuff is not gonna be good enough

00:18:23   on a little thing that's parked on the back of your wrist.

00:18:26   I just feel like they should investigate this stuff,

00:18:30   but some of this stuff is just not gonna be good enough.

00:18:34   And that you'd be better off with an accessory.

00:18:37   Also, the fact is not everybody needs all of this stuff.

00:18:40   Like it's great that you've got heartbeat tracking

00:18:41   and all of that, but like if you can't make it work

00:18:44   or you can't make it work without lots and lots of effort,

00:18:47   the advantage of having a separate sensor

00:18:49   is that a separate sensor can be bought

00:18:51   by the people who need it.

00:18:52   and nobody else. Like I've got a smart blood pressure cuff that talks to an app that will

00:18:59   log my blood pressure in the health app, right? But it's a separate product and it's a blood

00:19:05   pressure cuff and you put it on and you press the button and it takes your blood pressure

00:19:10   and like it's made to do that and it's accurate. Whereas whatever this is, it's just sort of

00:19:17   like what's the best we could guess based on our position on the back of

00:19:22   somebody's wrist and I yeah I don't know a lot of this stuff I think falls

00:19:25   aside. It is worth mentioning that the Samsung thing requires calibration with an external

00:19:33   I'm not saying this makes it work but just like just so I can give the full

00:19:36   information as people don't know you have to calibrate it and you have to

00:19:39   update that calibration over time and then it's using sensors but I think that

00:19:44   you are hitting on the point which is what Mark Gurman is talking about, there is an

00:19:49   accuracy issue with the blood pressure stuff that Apple is clearly struggling with. I would

00:19:56   say personally, I don't know if this is something the Apple Watch needs because I don't know

00:20:06   how you could make this something that you could rely on.

00:20:10   - Right, because if you could look,

00:20:12   anything that they can build into an Apple Watch

00:20:14   that is reliable, the brilliance of it is,

00:20:17   it's monitoring you all the time when you wear it.

00:20:19   You don't have to remember to run these things.

00:20:21   This is the brilliance of tracking your heart rate,

00:20:24   is it just does it.

00:20:26   And it can track your blood oxygen with the newer models,

00:20:30   and it just does it.

00:20:31   And that means that if you have something weird going on

00:20:33   with your heart, or if it detects something weird going on,

00:20:37   you can be alerted for it.

00:20:39   Now the ECG that they've got is less useful

00:20:42   because you actually have to run it.

00:20:44   And of course it has its own limitations,

00:20:46   but it's like a utility add-on

00:20:49   that you have to be actively doing,

00:20:51   which is still nice 'cause it's in the footprint

00:20:53   of the watch, but it's not as good as the stuff

00:20:54   that just runs in the background.

00:20:56   And so, yeah, if you could accurately measure blood pressure

00:20:59   so that without doing anything,

00:21:02   you've got a record of your blood pressure

00:21:04   at various points throughout the day for weeks on end

00:21:07   to send to your doctor and say,

00:21:09   here's how I'm doing with my blood pressure.

00:21:11   Great, but if it's an estimate

00:21:14   and they can't make claims in certain countries

00:21:17   and all this, like that's where I think don't do it.

00:21:20   Like if it is not, the bar needs to be fairly high

00:21:23   and like, if you can't get over it,

00:21:26   don't say you sort of can sort of tell blood pressure,

00:21:30   like you shouldn't do that.

00:21:31   You should instead make an effort

00:21:33   or make an external device to do that.

00:21:36   if you want, if you're really so great,

00:21:38   but you know, apples mostly relied on third parties.

00:21:41   And this goes for blood glucose too, right?

00:21:44   - This is something else that they're apparently working

00:21:47   on a non-invasive blood sugar monitoring system.

00:21:51   - And again, if you can do it, that's miraculous, right?

00:21:54   If you can monitor somebody's blood sugar

00:21:56   from the back of the wrist,

00:21:57   and it actually will be useful to,

00:22:02   especially diabetics, right?

00:22:03   Like people who are pre-diabetic

00:22:05   or warned and say your blood sugar levels are actually high

00:22:09   and you should see your doctor.

00:22:10   Like that's all great, but it needs to be across the line.

00:22:13   If it's just a sort of like,

00:22:15   this blood sugar measurement

00:22:17   is for entertainment purposes only.

00:22:19   Like, no, no, that's not, no, don't do that.

00:22:22   So I appreciate that this is hard stuff,

00:22:25   but also we get these reports

00:22:26   about Apple Watch sensors every year.

00:22:28   And I think maybe what's going on in the background

00:22:31   is Apple really does have a whole list of things

00:22:33   that they're like, what could we fit in the watch?

00:22:35   And they come up to a bunch of them and think,

00:22:37   this isn't good enough.

00:22:39   And even the blood oxygen like is arguable, right?

00:22:41   Like you can buy a $15 thing that you put on your fingertip

00:22:44   that is accurate blood oxygen.

00:22:46   The thing on the Apple Watch is like,

00:22:49   yeah, don't make any claims.

00:22:52   - And also like just to close out the loop

00:22:59   on the blood sugar monitoring thing,

00:23:02   this is something that's still apparently

00:23:03   several years away, they have no target for it.

00:23:05   In the interim, the company is looking at improved support

00:23:09   for third-party glucose meters for the watch

00:23:11   and the iPhone's health app, which is a smart thing to do.

00:23:14   I think, you know, you're saying about these sensors.

00:23:17   I think it's pretty clear now that they've hit a wall

00:23:21   as to what they can realistically do

00:23:24   in the near term for censoring, right?

00:23:28   - Right, maybe there will be breakthroughs

00:23:30   in terms of sensors.

00:23:31   - I'm sure there will be in the future.

00:23:32   - But the geography, I think,

00:23:33   is just a seriously limiting factor, is the geography.

00:23:37   And again, we have that theory about like,

00:23:39   what if you have a watch band

00:23:40   that is actually contracting and doing blood pressure?

00:23:44   But also, you could have a watch band.

00:23:46   The watch band is territory that they own.

00:23:48   They could have a special watch band

00:23:50   with more sensors in it that talk to the watch.

00:23:53   And maybe they'll get there if that's the limiting factor.

00:23:56   But I think the truth is that even with that whole ring

00:23:58   around your wrist as a surface for the geography

00:24:01   of these sensors, there's a lot of stuff

00:24:04   that you're just never gonna be able to measure that way.

00:24:06   And if they wanna have breakthroughs,

00:24:09   what they need to do is make the watch and the phone

00:24:11   the center of this kind of constellation of devices.

00:24:14   And so if you've got high blood pressure,

00:24:15   maybe you have a different thing that you wear

00:24:18   that monitors your blood pressure throughout the day

00:24:20   and talks to your watch and talks to your phone.

00:24:22   And that would be great.

00:24:23   And obviously, if you need to monitor your blood sugar,

00:24:26   you've probably got a monitor for that.

00:24:28   and you want it to be really well integrated

00:24:30   into the ecosystem,

00:24:32   not everything's gonna fit inside that Apple Watch.

00:24:35   And that's okay, right?

00:24:37   Like, in fact, what I'm saying here is,

00:24:40   what I don't want is sort of a half-assed sensor

00:24:43   that doesn't do anything that is there

00:24:45   so Apple can make a very light claim

00:24:48   that is not really a claim

00:24:49   because they can't legally make a claim,

00:24:52   but they have the sensor and isn't that nice.

00:24:53   It's like, I have no time for that.

00:24:55   There's no point in entertainment sensors, right?

00:24:59   Like if they don't work,

00:25:00   leave them out and work on your infrastructure.

00:25:02   - This is where the wheels fell off

00:25:04   with the blood oxygen sensor.

00:25:06   - Yeah.

00:25:07   - Like all the previous, I mean, this was my, you know,

00:25:08   again, long time listeners have heard me make this point

00:25:11   and complaint a bunch of times,

00:25:12   but every other sensor they've added to the Apple Watch,

00:25:15   they were talking about what it could do.

00:25:17   You know, they would give the asterisks

00:25:19   where they would give them,

00:25:20   but they would talk about what they believed it could do.

00:25:22   And they've followed up as well over the years with,

00:25:24   you know, look at all these lives we've saved.

00:25:27   And the blood oxygen sensor was kind of like,

00:25:29   eh, you know, eh, you know,

00:25:33   and it was such a strange thing.

00:25:35   - Isn't it fun to have a number?

00:25:37   - Yeah.

00:25:38   - Okay, great.

00:25:39   - What can you do with that number?

00:25:40   Look at it, write it down, whatever you like.

00:25:42   - Enjoy.

00:25:43   I think the life-changing things that have happened

00:25:46   with the Apple Watch in terms of health

00:25:48   are just the active tracking, that's one of them,

00:25:51   and the active tracking and prodding and saying,

00:25:53   closure rings and stuff like that.

00:25:55   The heart rate stuff is good

00:25:57   because it is a fitness tracker at that point

00:25:59   and I use that and it compiles some data over time

00:26:02   that I find very useful in terms of like,

00:26:04   are you getting better with your fitness

00:26:06   or worse with your fitness?

00:26:07   And like, I like all of that,

00:26:09   that has had a positive impact on my life.

00:26:11   So I would say the heart rate sensor does make sense.

00:26:15   And things like fall detection are great, right?

00:26:20   - Even the hearing detection, it's a usable thing, right?

00:26:23   and it tells you clearly this will damage you.

00:26:27   It's like, great, good to know.

00:26:28   - Speaking of which, another thing that we've talked about

00:26:31   is AirPods.

00:26:34   Like that's another piece,

00:26:35   if I talk about the geography of the sensors,

00:26:38   there have been rumors that Apple has experimented

00:26:40   with health sensors in AirPods.

00:26:43   And I have the same thought about that,

00:26:45   which is like, if you can measure something better

00:26:49   on the inside of the ear than you can on the wrist,

00:26:52   or even as good, 'cause not everybody has an Apple Watch,

00:26:55   then yeah, you should totally do it.

00:26:57   If you can't, and you can't find a reason,

00:26:59   maybe find a third party that sells an armband

00:27:02   that I could wear every day

00:27:03   that will take my blood pressure or whatever, right?

00:27:05   You could do that.

00:27:06   But yeah, performative sensors, entertainment sensors,

00:27:11   just not, Apple needs to just stay away from that.

00:27:15   And I think they know that.

00:27:16   I think what happened with the blood oxygen thing

00:27:18   is that they really thought it was gonna be more than that.

00:27:20   and they weren't allowed to say it was more than that.

00:27:23   So they're sort of stuck with it as it is.

00:27:26   - So one sense, I should say, I've just given it away,

00:27:29   one sense that we might get this year

00:27:32   would be a body temperature,

00:27:34   with the initial focus being on fertility planning

00:27:39   as the right focus for that.

00:27:40   And this ties in with Apple have some software focus things

00:27:44   that they're working on as well this year.

00:27:47   One is improvements to women's health,

00:27:49   as well as sleep, atrial fibrillation detection,

00:27:53   and medication management,

00:27:55   as well as continued work on the fitness tracking in general.

00:27:58   - I cannot tell you how many people I know

00:28:00   who have talked about how either their older

00:28:03   or their parents who are older have gotten Apple Watches.

00:28:07   And my mom has an Apple Watch now,

00:28:09   and one of the reasons is the fall detection.

00:28:12   I want her to not only, if she takes a fall,

00:28:14   for it to be able to call for help,

00:28:16   but I want her, if she's mobility limited,

00:28:19   to be able to use the Apple Watch to call me or whatever,

00:28:23   even if she hasn't had a fall,

00:28:25   if she's somewhere and she can't get to her phone

00:28:26   and she's got her watch on her, that's great.

00:28:29   This pill management, like-

00:28:31   - I'm so excited about this.

00:28:33   - My mom has an alarm on her hand-me-down-from-me

00:28:38   little canister lady that tells her to take her pills.

00:28:44   But I love the idea of the Apple Watch

00:28:48   actually doing the medication management

00:28:53   instead of it being repurposing an alarm

00:28:55   or something to do it.

00:28:57   'Cause this is, a lot of people have to do this,

00:28:59   they're taking medication at different times,

00:29:01   it can get real complicated.

00:29:03   And having a thing on your wrist that taps you and says,

00:29:05   "Hey, it's time to take that thing."

00:29:06   And if you don't say, "I took it,"

00:29:08   it keeps bugging you about it.

00:29:10   I think that this is a great example of,

00:29:12   yeah, you can do this now,

00:29:13   but some carefully crafted software

00:29:15   that knows what all the issues are

00:29:17   and could help a person do this, that's great.

00:29:20   Like that's the kind of stuff,

00:29:21   and it doesn't require bending the laws of physics

00:29:25   to make a new sensor to fit on the back of your wrist.

00:29:28   - Yeah, I am one of these people.

00:29:31   I have medication I take in the morning and evening.

00:29:33   If I forget to take it,

00:29:35   it can make a massive impact on my day.

00:29:37   So I have a combination of I use the app Dew for a reminder,

00:29:41   and I have a pill box with the pills laid out in them,

00:29:43   right, so I can easily check in case I forgot.

00:29:45   - You're such an old man.

00:29:46   - You got a pill box.

00:29:48   - Because my thing is, if I can't remember

00:29:52   if I took the pill or not,

00:29:54   'cause it's one of the first things I do when I wake up,

00:29:56   well I'm stuck, I can't take more.

00:29:58   Because if I take more, I've gone over my dosage, right?

00:30:01   So I have to have this dual system.

00:30:04   So the pill management would allow somebody

00:30:06   to scan their pill bottles in the health app

00:30:09   and then get reminders of when these pills should be taken

00:30:12   based on the instructions.

00:30:14   And I think that's absolutely fantastic.

00:30:16   - I love it.

00:30:17   - I hope that they do this.

00:30:18   - Yeah, this is, again, it could be implemented badly.

00:30:21   It totally could.

00:30:21   This is the thing where we talk about it

00:30:23   and we express optimism and then somebody writes in

00:30:25   and says, "Oh, think of all the ways

00:30:26   "they could get this wrong."

00:30:27   And it's like, well, sure,

00:30:28   you could literally say that about anything,

00:30:30   but I'm optimistic because I feel like this is an area

00:30:33   where Apple could really add value by saying,

00:30:35   "No, no, no, you don't need to repurpose your timers

00:30:38   "and alarms to do this.

00:30:39   "We are gonna, or download a third party app to do it.

00:30:43   "We are going to do it right

00:30:45   so that you can, because so many people only use the stuff that's default, and we're gonna

00:30:50   put it in there. And it could potentially be something that's very helpful for a lot

00:30:54   of people, and that's the kind of thing I love to see.

00:30:57   Mark Gurman expects, moving away from house stuff, a proper low-power mode to come to

00:31:02   the Apple Watch, so you can still have access to some features and some apps without it

00:31:08   just being that black screen with the green number on it when you're completely dead.

00:31:13   are plans to update many existing watch faces.

00:31:16   Oh, could it be that finally some of my favorite watch faces that are still in their Apple

00:31:22   Watch Series 1 configuration get updates? That would be nice.

00:31:26   I would prefer that to new ones personally. Yeah, I would too. Yeah, fewer novelty watch

00:31:32   faces and more good refreshes, functional refreshes of old ones. Like, I love modular

00:31:38   and modular is still stuck in series one. And I faked a lot of modular using the California

00:31:44   face, but like, it's not right. Like modular should be the one that you use for this. And

00:31:49   the watch face design has come a long way on the Apple Watch since modular came out

00:31:53   and I would really like a better update to that. I wanted to mention the low power mode

00:31:57   thing. I just wanted to say I love the idea that low power mode actually has a little

00:32:01   more to it than the blank face. That's just one of those things that if you've ever been

00:32:07   in that mode, sort of like it just turns your watch into a dumb watch. And wouldn't it be

00:32:12   nice if you had some basic functionality beyond that. But yeah, that's a good one. And watch

00:32:21   faces, yes, I would like, I don't need more novelty graphic. I mean, they'll probably

00:32:26   still do novelty watch faces because they like to show it off and have everybody go,

00:32:29   "Ooh, pretty." And that's fine. But like, "Oh, the old watch faces desperately need

00:32:34   to revisit, so I hope that's true.

00:32:36   -The satellite connectivity rumor is back.

00:32:39   So, for emergencies.

00:32:41   -I thought we proved it was happening

00:32:42   and then also proved that it was physically impossible,

00:32:45   and now it's back. -Apparently coming back again.

00:32:48   And Mark Gurman is doubling down on the expectation

00:32:51   of three watches being released this year,

00:32:54   a Series 8 model, a new SE,

00:32:57   which would presumably be based on the 4,

00:33:02   - So therefore getting the removal of the three

00:33:04   and everything that's kind of like the three.

00:33:06   When I say the four, like that four slash five,

00:33:08   maybe it gets more features than the current one.

00:33:11   And also the rugged model for extreme sportists.

00:33:14   - G-Shox watch, Apple watch.

00:33:16   - I think it would look super cool, maybe.

00:33:18   - I don't know, I think that fanning out that product line

00:33:23   with some purpose-built variants is a great idea.

00:33:27   I know we've talked about it here.

00:33:29   It's a really great idea.

00:33:31   Yeah, sounds good.

00:33:32   New SE, I think we're all assuming that new SE,

00:33:35   the idea there is that, yeah,

00:33:36   they'll finally be able to put a stake in the heart

00:33:39   of the series three by making an SE

00:33:41   that is actually gonna be capable of replacing it.

00:33:44   'Cause it's so old now that they basically have to.

00:33:47   Wouldn't surprise me if this is essentially that.

00:33:49   It's a four-ish or five-ish or whatever kind of model.

00:33:54   And then it allows them to keep selling,

00:33:57   series six or seven or both,

00:34:00   but that the SE is hitting their price point

00:34:03   and hopefully consigning some of the older,

00:34:06   especially if they're changing the watch faces,

00:34:08   consigning their original screen size to the trash heap

00:34:12   would be a good thing, right?

00:34:13   That they're like, no, no, no,

00:34:15   we're not doing any more with that.

00:34:16   We're able to update our faces.

00:34:18   We're gonna make a new SE and now that's it.

00:34:21   Sorry, existing SE people and series three people,

00:34:24   but at some point you gotta move on.

00:34:27   - 'Cause the SE is based on the four, right?

00:34:29   the screen size and layout.

00:34:33   - I think so, but it's not.

00:34:35   - It doesn't have a ways on.

00:34:36   - Yeah, and yet they couldn't get the price down

00:34:40   to an acceptable price.

00:34:42   So this will have to have their bargain bin won.

00:34:44   - I wonder if the SE will fill the three space

00:34:49   and then the SE two will fill the SE space

00:34:53   in the price line up. - Could be.

00:34:54   Could be, I mean, new SE, right?

00:34:56   Like we all were thinking sort of like, well, no,

00:34:58   You just need to keep the SE and get rid of the 3.

00:35:02   - That always should be the plan,

00:35:04   but I just don't know if they're gonna be able

00:35:05   to get the SE to 200, I don't know.

00:35:08   - I don't know, or maybe this is the time,

00:35:12   or it's a subtly changed SE

00:35:14   that allows them to get to 200 for it.

00:35:16   We'll see. - Maybe over time,

00:35:17   that series 3 is sold less and less.

00:35:19   Like, who knows, right?

00:35:20   Maybe they've realized that they can shuffle

00:35:22   that around a bit, who knows?

00:35:24   One looking at this report today.

00:35:27   - Yep.

00:35:28   once again struck by the idea that realistically now the Apple Watch is a fitness and health

00:35:34   tracker first, everything else second. Right? Like they landed on this a long time ago.

00:35:41   And I will just use this as another place to just say I just wished Apple made like

00:35:45   just a fitness tracking device, doesn't have a screen on it, like just a bunch of sensors.

00:35:50   That's what I desperately want. I don't know how long it would take them before they would

00:35:55   do that if they would ever, but I would just, that would be my ideal if they just made that.

00:36:01   I like my Apple Watch perfectly fine, but I like more what it does with the fitness

00:36:05   tracking than I do wearing the Apple Watch every day.

00:36:07   I like my Apple Watch a lot and I wear it all the time, but I would say that it does

00:36:14   feel like maybe there's a place for a product that has sensors and stuff and talks to the

00:36:20   iPhone so that you've got a third party thing. I guess the argument would be there are other

00:36:27   fitness bands that do that. So does Apple need to make one if you've got a fitness band?

00:36:32   I assume there are fitness bands out there that will download all their stuff into the

00:36:36   health app, but I'm sure Apple would make it more integrated and all of that. But that's

00:36:42   the, they've, you know, depending on what you want, they've overshot with the Apple

00:36:47   Watch because it's a complete computer. Although I think that is kind of what they're getting

00:36:50   for getting at with the low end, but it's still a watch. It's a fitness tracker, but

00:36:55   it's still a watch. It's not, you know, if you want to wear a watch and a fitness tracker,

00:37:00   you are now a two watch person. So that's not, that's not ideal for some people.

00:37:05   All right, Mark Gurman is also reporting that Apple currently have at least nine Macs in

00:37:10   development featuring four variations of the M2 chip. Now, will you permit me for a moment

00:37:17   to read a bunch of stuff. Please stand for the reading of the 9 Max. The historic 9 Max.

00:37:24   Okay, so this includes Easter Monday, it's time for the reading of the 9 Max. A MacBook

00:37:29   A with an M2 chip features 8 CPU cores, 10 GPU, a Mac Mini with an M2 chip, so it has

00:37:36   the same spec, but also there's an M2 Pro variation in testing. Sure. An entry level

00:37:43   MacBook Pro with an M2 chip, a 14" MacBook Pro with an M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, the M2

00:37:51   Max chip would feature 12 CPU cores and 38 graphics cores and would start with 64GB of

00:37:57   memory, a 16" MacBook Pro with M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, and a Mac Pro "this machine

00:38:06   will include a successor to the M1 Ultra chip used in the Mac Studio computer."

00:38:11   Now, there are two things I want to point out here.

00:38:15   I haven't read through this.

00:38:16   I don't know why,

00:38:18   but there's no listed specification at the M2 Pro.

00:38:21   I don't know why.

00:38:22   There's just no listing.

00:38:23   - M2 Pro is going to be a cores turned off version

00:38:27   of the Mac.

00:38:28   So he's reporting what the Macs has,

00:38:30   which is how they're all built.

00:38:31   And then they will obviously have reduced core options,

00:38:35   multiple probably reduced core options from there.

00:38:38   So I understand why they didn't do that.

00:38:40   I'm more saying where's the iMac in the Mac studio?

00:38:44   - Well, these are, well these, okay, so this is the,

00:38:49   another part in this article is this,

00:38:51   like where they are in testing,

00:38:53   like when it's reported as testing,

00:38:56   is to indicate that these computers would all be introduced

00:38:59   within the next few months.

00:39:02   So those two you just mentioned would be later.

00:39:06   Like-- - Be further out.

00:39:07   - And it's not to say those product,

00:39:08   but like these are, this level of testing

00:39:11   where these old machines are now is--

00:39:13   - I've waited five weeks for a new Mac Studio.

00:39:15   They haven't introduced a new Mac Studio in five weeks.

00:39:17   What's wrong with them?

00:39:19   The iMac, I'm a little more.

00:39:20   Yeah, no, this is your first wave,

00:39:23   first and second wave M2 Macs roundup here.

00:39:27   - What I will say, so the second thing I wanted to mention,

00:39:30   and this is very intriguing to me,

00:39:31   something that we spoke about some time ago, I believe.

00:39:35   the Mac Pro will include a successor to the M1 Ultra.

00:39:40   So is the Mac Pro never going to have an M1 in it?

00:39:44   - This report suggests, yes.

00:39:48   - That it will feature the M2 Ultra chip.

00:39:51   - Well, if in his roundup here,

00:39:54   he is saying M2 Max is coming, right?

00:39:57   M2 Max is coming.

00:39:58   It's not- - An M2 Pro, an M2 Ultra.

00:40:00   - Often that, like, 'cause we had speculated

00:40:02   that what they might do is start releasing,

00:40:04   now that they've got the whole M1 line closed up,

00:40:07   they might start releasing some M2 products,

00:40:10   but also some M1 Macs products might still come, right?

00:40:14   That how do you, do you really turn the page on the M1

00:40:17   or do you still introduce some new M1 based products?

00:40:20   No, not new M1 chips, they said that's over,

00:40:22   but do you still introduce some new M1 based products

00:40:25   after you've broken the seal on the M2?

00:40:28   And Germin here is suggesting, no, you don't.

00:40:31   Like that the Mac Pro has waited long enough,

00:40:34   perhaps because it needed functionality

00:40:37   that is not available in the M1 series,

00:40:40   that it's gonna be an M2 product.

00:40:41   And that maybe that's when we talk about the quad version,

00:40:44   which is like the ultra ultra, the plus ultra,

00:40:47   the, did I do that right?

00:40:51   I don't know, the Uber chip, Uber ultra,

00:40:53   ultra ultra plus max pro.

00:40:57   - Max.

00:40:58   - That comes at a quad configuration

00:41:00   'cause the ultra is a dual.

00:41:03   and the M1 doesn't have the stuff for four connections,

00:41:07   it only has the stuff for two,

00:41:09   well, maybe this is the answer,

00:41:11   that's 'cause the M2 is the one

00:41:12   that's got the connections for four.

00:41:14   And so the M2 is the one that's gonna be able

00:41:16   to have the four chip thing instead of the two chip ultra.

00:41:20   And maybe that's the answer is that the Mac Pro has to wait,

00:41:25   but then it's gonna get an M2 super ultra

00:41:28   when it finally appears.

00:41:31   And I think that's plausible only because he's talking

00:41:35   about M2 Pro and M2 Max happening soon

00:41:39   because that's a requirement, right?

00:41:42   You can't, the M2 Max is the basis for the Mac Pro.

00:41:47   And it's actually kind of exciting, right?

00:41:49   'Cause it is the basis for it.

00:41:51   Like once an M2 Max is out there,

00:41:53   you can connect those up and make dual

00:41:56   or quad configurations.

00:41:58   And so maybe that's what this is all about.

00:42:00   - Yeah, so I guess my expectation on this would be,

00:42:05   if we were to be shown a Mac Pro in June,

00:42:09   it will be as I've done many times,

00:42:11   shipping at the end of the year, most likely.

00:42:13   - Sure.

00:42:15   - Because that's when they would be able to have out

00:42:17   these other machines, you know,

00:42:18   if we are gonna see that, right?

00:42:19   'Cause that's potentially quite a bit to go.

00:42:23   - Yeah, I mean, this is,

00:42:25   he says this is all kind of in the works.

00:42:28   It does feel like there's an M2 wave

00:42:30   and then there'll be an M2 Pro/Max wave

00:42:33   that will happen later that you get your MacBook Air

00:42:36   and your Mac mini on an M2 in June.

00:42:41   And then in the fall, you get MacBook Pro and Mac Pro

00:42:46   with the Pro chips and maybe the Mac mini Pro variation

00:42:49   as well at that point.

00:42:50   'Cause I do think they wanna do that.

00:42:52   Several people have written about the fact

00:42:54   that there's no desktop Pro Mac.

00:42:57   it's you're either on the M1 or you're on the M1 Max or Ultra.

00:43:01   - Yes.

00:43:02   - So this is next.

00:43:03   - Yeah, on that note, the M1 Pro and M1 Max chips

00:43:08   have been tested in a Mac mini, according to Mark Gurman,

00:43:12   but it is expected that the studio has made this redundant

00:43:16   from Apple's perspective,

00:43:18   especially with M2 variations on the horizon.

00:43:21   - Right, and I love the idea that some of the products

00:43:25   that have M1s will have optional M1s,

00:43:28   or M2s will have M2 Pros,

00:43:30   'cause we talked about it in the context of the M1.

00:43:32   And I see that here, which is, okay, M1 Mac Mini,

00:43:35   that's fun, but M2 Mac Mini, where you can,

00:43:39   'cause Apple loves to tempt you to spend more money,

00:43:42   where you can upscale it to an M2 Pro.

00:43:44   And maybe, you know, M2 Macs,

00:43:46   no, we're not gonna let you do that.

00:43:47   You need to buy a Mac Studio for that when we upgrade it.

00:43:51   But the Pro we'll put in there.

00:43:53   And maybe that's true with the entry-level MacBook Pro

00:43:56   as well, like it comes with an M2,

00:43:59   but you could spec it up and get an M2 Pro in there.

00:44:02   Or not, I mean, that would be a nice differentiator for it.

00:44:05   I don't expect the MacBook Air will have an option

00:44:07   to put an M2 Pro in it, right?

00:44:09   But maybe the MacBook Pro would.

00:44:10   So, but the Mac Mini is a perfect example of that.

00:44:14   So I would love to see that.

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00:45:37   Jason Snow, you know we talk, me and you.

00:45:40   This isn't the only time we talk.

00:45:43   talk very frequently throughout the week, especially along with in a group thread

00:45:47   between me and you and Steven, we're always "chitty-chatting" as the kids call it,

00:45:51   they don't, throughout the entire week. And I know that you have been suffering

00:45:55   with a delivery that arrived at your house. Would you like to tell the story to the

00:46:02   Upgradients? Yes, let me tell you the story. So I bought a studio display. I

00:46:06   bought the VESA mount version because I have had two different iMacs and before

00:46:11   that an external display on a VESA mount above my desk,

00:46:14   'cause I like having a thing that hovers above my desk

00:46:16   and is not sitting on my desk blocking access to the desk.

00:46:19   I like it. - Sure.

00:46:20   - I ordered it on basically day one, day two,

00:46:24   and after a long delay, right,

00:46:29   of waiting for that product to come,

00:46:31   it arrived on Wednesday.

00:46:32   Unfortunately, I was at an appointment

00:46:34   that I made long before, and so I came back

00:46:39   and there was a post-it note on my door

00:46:40   that said UPS couldn't deliver.

00:46:42   By the way, and Steven Hackett informed me

00:46:44   that this is apparently a UPS policy.

00:46:45   My meal box service with perishable food in it

00:46:50   was also delivered that day by UPS.

00:46:53   And because Apple requires somebody being present

00:46:56   to receive the studio display,

00:46:59   apparently UPS policy is since I wasn't home,

00:47:03   they don't deliver anything to me,

00:47:05   thereby making my meal box for the week unviable.

00:47:10   So that was awesome.

00:47:12   Hey UPS, dumb, what are you doing?

00:47:17   Perishable stuff, deliver it.

00:47:19   If it doesn't require a signature, just leave it,

00:47:20   leave it at the door.

00:47:22   They leave things at the door,

00:47:24   they leave that stuff at the door all the time.

00:47:26   But because it came with a monitor this time, they didn't.

00:47:30   That's dumb.

00:47:31   Anyway, so Thursday, I am home.

00:47:33   They deliver it, it's great.

00:47:34   Very exciting.

00:47:35   get it in here, open up the box, put it down,

00:47:39   screw on the little screws that were leftover

00:47:41   from taking off the last one from the Visa mount,

00:47:44   put it on my desk,

00:47:45   and now I have a floating studio display.

00:47:47   Great.

00:47:48   Plug it in to the Mac studio,

00:47:51   and I sit down and I'm like, okay, it's floating.

00:47:55   And I see a horizontal line of static appear on the screen.

00:48:00   And I think, that's not great.

00:48:03   And then I see another one.

00:48:04   And then I see another one.

00:48:06   Is this really happening to me?

00:48:11   Am I going to do this?

00:48:12   Okay, so first thing we do is replace the cable, right?

00:48:17   Like what if it's the cable?

00:48:21   I'm using a third party cable.

00:48:22   - Easiest thing, right?

00:48:24   New cable, try it out.

00:48:26   - I'm using a third party cable that I bought from OWC.

00:48:29   That's longer.

00:48:30   Let's go back to the cable that comes with the monitor.

00:48:33   that's shorter, but it comes from Apple.

00:48:35   What if it's a cable problem?

00:48:36   I can go to OWC, get them to send me a new one, whatever.

00:48:39   That cable hasn't had any problems

00:48:40   with my existing display,

00:48:42   but the new display is flickering.

00:48:44   So I get the new cable out.

00:48:47   Still doing it.

00:48:49   So I restart my computer.

00:48:50   Still doing it.

00:48:53   So I get my MacBook Air, my M1 MacBook Air.

00:48:55   I plug it into that.

00:48:56   Still doing it.

00:48:58   Okay, at this point, I've changed the cables,

00:49:00   I've changed the computers.

00:49:01   guess what, it's the monitor.

00:49:04   This is the problem.

00:49:05   So I call Apple online store support

00:49:10   because I realize I'm gonna have to get them

00:49:12   to take this back and send me a new one.

00:49:15   Yeah, I mean, this is a new one,

00:49:16   but it doesn't work out of the box.

00:49:18   - Brian, you- - As I'm sitting there

00:49:19   waiting on hold, fascinating.

00:49:22   My MacBook Air is still plugged into it.

00:49:25   So I'm still watching it kind of out of the corner of my eye

00:49:27   and it's turned at an angle,

00:49:28   but I can still see the screen sort of at an angle.

00:49:31   And it's one of the most fascinating things about this.

00:49:34   The flicker keeps building

00:49:38   like a storm or something.

00:49:42   So it's flicker, flicker, flicker,

00:49:45   flicker, flicker, flicker.

00:49:46   Over the course of like five minutes,

00:49:48   it builds to a crescendo

00:49:50   where it's almost entirely horizontal statics firing off.

00:49:55   And then it stops.

00:50:00   And I thought, well, that's weird.

00:50:02   I wonder what will happen now.

00:50:04   I'm returning this thing regardless.

00:50:05   Like even if it never does it again, like this is crazy.

00:50:08   I should never, ever, ever use this product.

00:50:11   And then as I sit there on hold

00:50:13   and then talking to somebody, after a minute or so,

00:50:16   like, lick, lick, and it begins to build up again.

00:50:19   - So this is seeming to indicate,

00:50:21   'cause there was someone asking in the Discord,

00:50:23   that like it didn't seem like it was a physical damage

00:50:26   to the panel kind of situation.

00:50:28   - Oh no, there's an electronic problem

00:50:30   inside and these are horizontal.

00:50:31   - It's going away and stuff like that.

00:50:33   - Yeah, this is absolutely a, yeah, very clearly

00:50:37   and I think it has to do with an electrical buildup

00:50:40   that's happening somewhere too

00:50:42   because it's actually growing and changing.

00:50:45   That building to a crescendo made me realize,

00:50:49   you know, there's a process at work here

00:50:51   where there's like excess, whatever, excess built up

00:50:56   and then it discharges maybe

00:50:59   And then it starts again.

00:51:01   It's very bad is what I'm saying.

00:51:03   And unacceptable for this.

00:51:07   So I'm on the phone to Apple support.

00:51:11   And what's interesting about that

00:51:13   is that their response is something like,

00:51:17   let's do a return and new order.

00:51:21   So the idea here is we return this one,

00:51:22   like you didn't want it and then you just make a new order.

00:51:25   But this is a new model that's backordered.

00:51:28   And so what that would effectively do is put me

00:51:32   in the back of the line for a sold out,

00:51:35   long wait time product.

00:51:37   I didn't really want to get in the back of the line

00:51:38   'cause this is Apple's fault.

00:51:39   Apple sent me a bad display.

00:51:41   So I want to return it and get one from the front of the line

00:51:46   because they sold me one that's no good.

00:51:48   - I feel like the internet has told me over the years

00:51:53   that the expectation is Apple always have stock

00:51:58   for this exact purpose.

00:52:00   Like that if they messed up, they can replace it for you.

00:52:04   - Yes, and they keep stock in the Apple store.

00:52:06   Those Apple stores will say they don't have stock

00:52:09   and they do, but the reason they say they don't

00:52:11   is they keep some around for people

00:52:13   who have defective units, right?

00:52:15   But this is back ordered and rare,

00:52:18   and this is a rare configuration too.

00:52:21   I did think later part of the story,

00:52:23   I did go to the Apple store and I did think of saying

00:52:26   in a very five easy pieces kind of way,

00:52:28   you can look it up people,

00:52:30   saying, do you have a studio display back there?

00:52:34   Do you have the AppleCare tools to swap

00:52:38   the studio displays basic mount for a VESA mount?

00:52:41   You do?

00:52:44   Why don't you do that and give me the,

00:52:46   put my VESA mount on a good monitor and give that to me.

00:52:50   But I didn't even go down that path

00:52:51   because I'm not even sure they're capable of doing that

00:52:53   right now, this is a new product.

00:52:55   They might have to ship it out for that.

00:52:56   So I didn't do that.

00:52:58   But the idea here is that a VESA mount is rare

00:53:02   and maybe a studio display in general,

00:53:05   but certainly my version, it's rare.

00:53:07   And so they don't have them, apparently.

00:53:10   They don't have them like squirreled away

00:53:12   to send out to somebody who had a bad one.

00:53:15   So I talked to the rep on the phone

00:53:20   and they say, "All right, well, here's what we're gonna do.

00:53:23   We will try to do a return and an expedited replacement

00:53:27   or something like that, but basically we need it back

00:53:30   before this whole thing kicks off.

00:53:32   So I can generate a mailing label for you

00:53:37   and you can have FedEx come and pick it up

00:53:39   or you can drop it off at the Apple store."

00:53:41   And I said, "Well, I'm one exit away from the Apple store

00:53:44   and I'd really like to not wait around for this."

00:53:47   And this was probably my mistake.

00:53:49   I probably should have just said,

00:53:49   look it's all the same to me send me the mailing label and I'll take it to FedEx. But the guy

00:53:55   was like oh no no you can just go to the Apple store that's fine you don't even need a Genius

00:53:58   Bar appointment. So I go to the Apple store and I discover a few things. One is you do

00:54:03   need a Genius Bar appointment. Two is they don't have any. And three apparently online

00:54:08   sales support the phone people for the Apple online store are really good at punting to

00:54:16   Apple retail and basically saying,

00:54:19   "Let the suckers in the store deal with this."

00:54:22   'Cause I go there and the people

00:54:23   in my local Apple store are very nice.

00:54:25   They are very nice and very helpful.

00:54:26   And I was very apologetic 'cause it became clear

00:54:29   very quickly that they should not be seeing me.

00:54:33   That the guy on the phone should have said,

00:54:34   "Look, don't go to your Apple store."

00:54:37   'Cause I wasn't insisting, don't even like mention it to me.

00:54:40   "I'm gonna send you a FedEx thing.

00:54:42   FedEx will come and get it and we'll replace it."

00:54:46   but instead he sent me to the Apple store.

00:54:48   So I, they had no Genius Bar appointments.

00:54:51   They sent me back the next day.

00:54:52   I went the next day and the guy, again, very nice.

00:54:55   All the people at the Apple store are nice.

00:54:57   This is not about them.

00:54:58   He was like, yeah, they probably shouldn't have sent you

00:55:00   here, but let's call.

00:55:02   I will try to escalate this with the online store people

00:55:05   on the phone and let's see if we can get a resolution

00:55:07   for you.

00:55:08   And so after waiting, you know, an hour at the Apple store

00:55:11   for the second time, I got a,

00:55:15   I got a guy on the phone literally handed to me

00:55:18   by the person in the retail store,

00:55:20   a guy on the phone who took my information

00:55:22   and said, "I'm going to email you a FedEx bill

00:55:26   and you're gonna put that on the box

00:55:28   and you're gonna ship it back to us.

00:55:30   And then I will try," what he said was,

00:55:32   "I will try to get you,

00:55:34   I will mark it as an expedited replacement."

00:55:37   Which is, I don't know if I really believe it.

00:55:40   I still kind of think what they're gonna do

00:55:41   is put me at the back of the line

00:55:42   and it's gonna be two months before I see this thing.

00:55:45   but at least I got somebody to claim

00:55:47   they were going to put a flag on it saying,

00:55:49   no, this guy really should get one soon, not in two months.

00:55:54   So, you know, at the very least,

00:55:59   it was the thing that he could say to me

00:56:01   to make me stop asking for help

00:56:03   and just send the freaking monitor back already.

00:56:05   So it's like, just tell the man it's expedited

00:56:07   and then we'll, I'm not sure I believe it, right?

00:56:09   I'm not sure I believe that it's expedited, but whatever.

00:56:12   So I came home, there's an email from Apple

00:56:15   with a FedEx label.

00:56:18   I repacked the display, which was already in the case,

00:56:21   but I repacked it into its cardboard box

00:56:23   that it came in from FedEx,

00:56:26   and taped it up and put the label on it.

00:56:28   And it is now sitting in my house,

00:56:30   and after upgrade, I will take it to the local FedEx orifice

00:56:34   and drop it off, at which point,

00:56:37   theoretically, they will scan it,

00:56:39   and Apple's next thing will kick off,

00:56:42   at which point they will tell me, you know,

00:56:44   wait eight weeks.

00:56:46   And then the mystery happens.

00:56:47   'Cause the guy said, when you get the first note,

00:56:49   it will say that you're gonna wait a long time,

00:56:51   but don't believe it.

00:56:54   We are gonna, behind the scenes,

00:56:56   we've got a flag on that for it to be sooner.

00:56:58   And I'm like, okay, I don't believe you, but okay.

00:57:01   - I don't understand this idea of a flag.

00:57:03   How can one appear sooner?

00:57:05   - Well, here's how.

00:57:08   Apple has a production line of these things

00:57:11   and they're coming off the production line.

00:57:13   And what I'm saying is if you have a defective one,

00:57:20   you should get the next one off the production line.

00:57:23   Not put in the list among all orders for that model.

00:57:28   - Yeah, I mean, I agree.

00:57:29   - And get the last one.

00:57:31   So it sounds like they have a way,

00:57:34   again, or this could not be true,

00:57:36   to say, no, no, this is,

00:57:38   Because what this is is an edge case, right?

00:57:40   This is a case where they don't have those secret stash

00:57:42   of ones to send out as a replacement

00:57:45   for something that's bad.

00:57:46   They don't have them now 'cause they don't have enough.

00:57:49   They haven't made enough to have the stash.

00:57:52   So it may be that they have a workaround

00:57:54   where if there is no stash, they put a flag on it and say,

00:57:57   no, this needs to go to the front of the line more or less

00:57:59   or front of the line within certain conditions

00:58:01   in order to get one out sooner.

00:58:03   I honestly don't know.

00:58:05   And of course, there's all sorts of reasons

00:58:08   that they may be in short supply,

00:58:10   including conditions at the factories and all of that.

00:58:13   So even if it's expedited, it may be a long time.

00:58:15   And I'm fine with that.

00:58:17   I have a setup that is perfectly fine

00:58:19   that I can use in the meantime.

00:58:20   I just, I fell in like a real uncanny valley

00:58:24   in the Apple sales and support process,

00:58:27   which is what happens if I get something

00:58:28   that's dead on delivery, dead on arrival display?

00:58:32   And the answer was,

00:58:34   they should have been clearer with me on the phone.

00:58:37   The retail people were very helpful,

00:58:39   but did not feel empowered to do anything short of just a

00:58:43   return and replace, and they have no replacements.

00:58:46   So it would just be a new order.

00:58:47   Eventually the phone people made the noises

00:58:52   like I was not gonna be at the back of the line

00:58:55   and they would try to get me one sooner.

00:58:57   And I understand like in normal circumstances,

00:59:00   when these are everywhere,

00:59:01   I would be irate about the fact that like,

00:59:04   why don't you send me a replacement for the product

00:59:06   that you sent me that was not functional.

00:59:08   I get why they can't do that,

00:59:10   but it's a very weird situation.

00:59:12   So it may indeed be that I waited five or six weeks

00:59:15   for a display that I will now wait another eight weeks for

00:59:18   because Apple sent me one that was bad.

00:59:20   And I don't know why it's bad.

00:59:22   There are some posts in various forums about issues

00:59:25   that don't seem to be the same issues that I saw.

00:59:27   Brand new product, made it volume.

00:59:30   Guess what?

00:59:31   They're gonna be lemons.

00:59:32   I'm not offended that it doesn't work.

00:59:35   there are gonna be lemons and I'm glad it didn't work

00:59:37   right out of the box 'cause I didn't wanna set it up

00:59:39   and commit to using it and then find out

00:59:41   that something was broken on it.

00:59:42   But it is kind of funny that Apple,

00:59:45   I think I caught Apple wrong-footed essentially

00:59:48   where they're like, they don't have stock of this thing

00:59:51   and it's like, really hope it isn't defective

00:59:53   and the answer is, oh, it's defective.

00:59:54   I don't have a product to make this right right now.

00:59:57   And so I stepped in it, but I will say

01:00:01   this is a hole in their process that they need to fix

01:00:03   'cause the answer should be, if it's defective

01:00:06   and we don't have any in stock, here's what you do.

01:00:08   And at no point did I feel like anybody involved

01:00:11   in the Apple process knew what they should do

01:00:14   in that scenario.

01:00:15   They all just fell back on cancel your order

01:00:18   and return it and make a new order.

01:00:21   I was like, which if I could get it tomorrow

01:00:23   via a new order wouldn't be a problem, right?

01:00:25   But like, what if we're in a scenario

01:00:27   where you can't do that and it's back ordered?

01:00:30   And here we are.

01:00:31   So I think Apple honestly is so,

01:00:33   this is a supply chain thing too.

01:00:34   They're so wired with their supply chain

01:00:37   that I think they never built their processes

01:00:39   to have something like this happen

01:00:40   because why would it ever happen?

01:00:42   Why would anything be back ordered like that?

01:00:44   - 'Cause they'll just get one to you

01:00:45   in like a week at most, right?

01:00:46   - Yeah, like they are so,

01:00:49   other than all of their supply chain issues

01:00:51   during the pandemic, like they are so solid with this stuff

01:00:54   that like why would they ever need a contingency like that?

01:00:57   But they seem to have fallen in that

01:00:59   and I unfortunately am the one who fell into that trap.

01:01:03   So anyway, I gotta go to FedEx today.

01:01:06   - Two questions for you.

01:01:07   - Yeah.

01:01:08   - One, did you ever try to update the firmware or anything?

01:01:12   Was it possible for you to do like have a laptop?

01:01:14   - It came with the current firmware.

01:01:16   - The most, okay, 'cause I'd wondered,

01:01:17   you know, you never know, right?

01:01:18   Like maybe an update will fix it,

01:01:20   but if there's no update for you to do,

01:01:22   you can't do anything. - No, this is an

01:01:23   electronic problem.

01:01:24   It's the current firmware and it doesn't work.

01:01:27   So like bottom line, at this point,

01:01:29   once I saw those horizontal lines, it's like,

01:01:31   I don't want this display, right?

01:01:33   Like even if somebody is like,

01:01:34   well, maybe it'll settle down

01:01:36   or maybe when it warms up in your house or whatever,

01:01:38   it's like, no, no, if I plug something in

01:01:40   and it has a storm of horizontal lines on it,

01:01:43   it's just a bad monitor.

01:01:44   - Yeah, you're gonna wait.

01:01:45   - They should take it back.

01:01:46   - Just be spending all your entire time

01:01:47   waiting for the next time it's gonna happen, right?

01:01:49   - Right, right.

01:01:50   And also talking to some people I know who work at Apple,

01:01:52   they're like, this is such a new product

01:01:53   that they probably wanna capture it

01:01:55   and take it back to Apple and say,

01:01:57   what made it do this so that they can analyze

01:02:00   the way these things are produced to not, right?

01:02:04   Like that's one of the ways you prevent lemons

01:02:06   from happening down the line is you're like,

01:02:08   oh, this solder was wrong or this cable was loose.

01:02:12   And you go back to the factory and you figure out

01:02:15   why that happened and if you can improve the processes

01:02:18   so that they don't happen again.

01:02:20   I will ask, I don't know quite why it passed inspection

01:02:25   because presumably they inspected it.

01:02:27   and I literally plugged it in and within five seconds

01:02:30   there was a horizontal flicker.

01:02:31   - Do you think that every single item's inspected?

01:02:33   - Yeah, I think they have hardware inspection.

01:02:36   - Okay.

01:02:37   - Of some sort, I think so.

01:02:40   I think they've got to start things up

01:02:41   or run some sort of diagnostic on them.

01:02:44   And in the case of a display,

01:02:45   you would presume that you would plug it in

01:02:48   and make sure that it displayed properly

01:02:51   'cause you catch those before you ship them out.

01:02:53   'Cause what you want to do is stop them at the factory.

01:02:55   At some point in the process, they fail a test

01:02:57   and you're like, pull it off.

01:02:58   Like that one doesn't go out.

01:02:59   And you use that as part of your,

01:03:02   that's probably the most vital part of your loop

01:03:04   of tweaking your processes at the factory

01:03:08   so that you are efficient, right?

01:03:11   Is you pull the ones off that are broken

01:03:12   and you're like, okay, why are these things broken?

01:03:15   Stop the line, let's make a change

01:03:18   and we'll fix this problem.

01:03:20   So I'm a little surprised it came to me so obviously broken.

01:03:23   It's possible that in transit there was something loose

01:03:26   and it was shaken looser in transit.

01:03:30   And so it passed with flying colors in China.

01:03:33   And then somewhere between there and here,

01:03:36   it got a little shaken just enough

01:03:38   to make this issue appear.

01:03:41   But I don't know, it's fascinating when you think about

01:03:45   the job of people at Apple to make sure

01:03:48   that the production lines work

01:03:50   and that the level of failure is acceptable.

01:03:53   So I hope if they do take this thing back,

01:03:57   they learn from it and figure something out.

01:04:00   - And then the last thing I wanted to know is,

01:04:01   do you still have your review unit?

01:04:03   - I do. - No wonder you,

01:04:04   I would be much more upset than you are right now, but--

01:04:06   - That's why I'm okay, yeah. - Yeah, yeah.

01:04:09   I would be like ready to burn it down, you know?

01:04:11   - I was ready to decommission it, right?

01:04:12   Fortunately, the review unit length for this

01:04:16   is much longer than a Mac review unit usually is available.

01:04:19   And so I'm gonna have to take advantage of that

01:04:22   for a little while longer, which is fine.

01:04:26   Like I said, I'm not hurting here,

01:04:27   but I can, you know, other than not having the one

01:04:32   that I bought that is on the arm like I like

01:04:34   and all of that, it's fine.

01:04:35   I'm just more fascinated by how Apple's processes

01:04:40   did not solve the problem.

01:04:43   Like, it was very weird.

01:04:45   And I talked to people who were involved in Apple retail

01:04:48   at various levels and they say that like,

01:04:50   this is a common thing.

01:04:51   Sometimes the phone support sends it to the stores.

01:04:54   There are those moments where you aren't really sure

01:04:56   quite what to do.

01:04:57   And when I described my situation to people at Apple retail,

01:05:00   they definitely had gave it some pause and were like,

01:05:03   hmm, that's a tough one because if we don't have stock

01:05:06   and you've got a defective unit,

01:05:07   we can't swap it for a new unit.

01:05:11   Then the next thing we do is we go to,

01:05:14   you return it and we just place a new order

01:05:15   and you'll just get it at your house or in the store

01:05:18   the next day or in a week, but we can't do that.

01:05:20   So what do we do?

01:05:21   And it's just, I think it's, like I said,

01:05:24   I think this is exacerbating or exacerbated

01:05:26   by the supply chain issues that Apple's processes

01:05:30   just aren't built for a situation like this.

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01:06:51   I have some #AskUpgradeQuestions for you Jason. The first comes from Greg who

01:06:57   wants to know, "Hey Jason, what made you choose to go with a VESA mount for

01:07:02   your desk in the first place?" What a perfectly timed AskUpgradeQuestion.

01:07:06   It's like somebody chooses them, you know what I'm saying? You mean they're not

01:07:09   inserted randomly by a script? Believe it or not, no. They're not. You know, when I

01:07:15   When I bought my first desk for my home office,

01:07:20   I was thinking about,

01:07:21   they offered a VESA arm actually.

01:07:26   And I thought, "Oh, put my monitor on an arm.

01:07:29   That sounds great."

01:07:31   'Cause I hadn't done that

01:07:32   in my corporate office desk at all.

01:07:35   I thought, "That actually sounds pretty cool."

01:07:39   So I bought it.

01:07:40   I mean, it was really like, that sounds like a good idea.

01:07:42   I like the idea of getting the display off the desk.

01:07:44   And I had a Dell monitor that with like a little plastic

01:07:49   kind of up down thing that I would adjust.

01:07:52   And I was getting a sit stand desk.

01:07:53   And the idea there is that if you're doing sit and stand,

01:07:55   they sort of need to be in different positions.

01:07:57   And I thought, well, the arm sounds great for all of this.

01:08:00   So I bought that arm and that Dell monitor,

01:08:03   you could just unscrew the mount

01:08:04   and it was a VESA mount on the back.

01:08:05   So you just unscrew it and put it on.

01:08:07   And so I did that.

01:08:08   And so my first setup here was a MacBook Air

01:08:11   attached to a Dell external display.

01:08:13   And then I liked it.

01:08:15   I liked the idea that my desk was clear.

01:08:18   And when the 5K iMac came out,

01:08:21   I was at that point working here 100% of the time,

01:08:26   instead of when it was my work from home,

01:08:27   which is when I started configuring it that way.

01:08:30   And I got a review unit of the 5K iMac

01:08:33   and I put it on my desk and I thought,

01:08:35   well, I really like the 5K iMac and I wanna buy one,

01:08:38   but I don't like that it's sitting on my desk.

01:08:41   I have really gotten used to the idea

01:08:43   that I could adjust it however I wanted it,

01:08:45   floated above the desk,

01:08:47   and I had all the open space under the desk,

01:08:50   or under the iMac on the top of the desk.

01:08:53   So I bought the 5K iMac in the VESA mount configuration,

01:08:58   and really the rest is history,

01:09:02   'cause then I bought the iMac Pro,

01:09:03   and that one you bought standard

01:09:05   and you converted it with a kit, which I did.

01:09:08   And so this display, it's the same deal.

01:09:11   And really that's it, is that I like the idea

01:09:13   that it's adjustable and I can move it around

01:09:15   and it's floating above my desk

01:09:17   and that the space on my desk is entirely open.

01:09:21   And it's just nice.

01:09:23   - And VESA is good because you have a bunch of options

01:09:25   available to you, right, of how you wanna mount it

01:09:27   and stuff like that.

01:09:28   Different companies make different arms

01:09:29   that work in different ways.

01:09:31   - A lot of people use it to mount things,

01:09:32   like my TVs are VESA mounted on walls, some of them.

01:09:37   and you can do a wall mount.

01:09:39   That's not what I have.

01:09:39   My desk is in the middle of the room

01:09:41   and I don't want it at the back end of my desk

01:09:43   against a wall.

01:09:44   That's not how I use it.

01:09:45   But I like the flexibility of it.

01:09:49   I could buy a new arm.

01:09:49   I'm still literally using the arm that I got in 2013,

01:09:53   I think, when I bought my previous desk.

01:09:56   I'm still using that arm.

01:09:57   It's fine.

01:09:58   I'm sure that they make better arms now

01:09:59   and maybe at some point I'll get a better mounting arm,

01:10:02   but it's very nice and it works pretty well for me.

01:10:06   And it gives me that flexibility when I'm,

01:10:08   I've occasionally done like shooting videos or stuff

01:10:10   where I will push the, I was able to push the iMac

01:10:13   like off the desk or all the way to the back of the desk.

01:10:17   If you want a configuration where I'm,

01:10:19   I mostly work with a keyboard tray,

01:10:24   but if I'm having a particular like ergonomic issue

01:10:27   or something like that, you can also raise the height,

01:10:30   push it back, put the keyboard on the top of the desk

01:10:33   and not use the keyboard tray.

01:10:34   And I've done that too.

01:10:36   I think I prefer the keyboard tray,

01:10:37   but that's another way to go.

01:10:39   Like Steven Hackett's desk,

01:10:41   as we saw last week on Connected,

01:10:43   he's got all of his stuff up on the desktop

01:10:46   and then the computer and the display are like further back.

01:10:49   Mine is mostly the display is closer to me,

01:10:53   but like I can choose where I want it to be.

01:10:56   It's great.

01:10:57   So that's, I mean, I'm sure I could survive.

01:11:00   I have a studio display sitting on my desktop right now.

01:11:04   And it's fine.

01:11:06   I'd prefer not, but it's fine.

01:11:08   I just, you know, again,

01:11:09   I just prefer having the adaptability and adjustability.

01:11:14   And it just pleases me to have that empty space on my desk

01:11:18   that I can put things on or I can clear out.

01:11:20   And it's just a desk.

01:11:23   - Andrew asks, "What accent colors

01:11:26   and highlight color options do you choose on macOS?"

01:11:29   - Mine are multicolor. - What did he do again?

01:11:34   (laughing)

01:11:35   Like, and accent color, multicolor and accent color.

01:11:38   So every app can say for an accent color,

01:11:43   what is it?

01:11:48   So every app can say what the highlight color is

01:11:50   and the accent color is also it's on things in the system.

01:11:54   The accent color is basically there.

01:11:55   So if you have like a yellow iMac,

01:11:57   you can have it in yellow

01:11:58   and then a lot of UI elements will match the yellow.

01:12:03   But if you said multicolor, it's basically like,

01:12:05   don't match it, just do whatever the elements want to be,

01:12:08   they're that color.

01:12:09   Highlight color, similarly, you can choose an accent color,

01:12:13   like yellow or orange or whatever,

01:12:15   when you highlight text and stuff,

01:12:16   or you can let the system or the app choose the accent color.

01:12:22   And so you end up in a situation where different apps,

01:12:26   this is something that's more visible on iOS, I think,

01:12:32   - Well, no, I mean, it's a Mac OS thing now too.

01:12:34   So the idea there is that, yeah, if you're a blue app,

01:12:36   if you're Microsoft Word, you know,

01:12:39   everything will be blue and in Microsoft Excel,

01:12:41   everything, every highlight will be green

01:12:43   'cause it's a green app.

01:12:45   And like you can, like every app can say,

01:12:46   oh, we've got a special accent color,

01:12:48   but you can also take control and say,

01:12:49   no, I want everything to be orange

01:12:50   and then everything is orange.

01:12:52   - So on my MacBook Pro,

01:12:54   I also have multicolor and accent color.

01:12:56   I expect this is the default,

01:12:57   but my iMac is set differently to its default,

01:13:02   which is this Mac, which is only something

01:13:05   that exists on the iMac right now.

01:13:06   - On the iMac because it knows that it's yellow.

01:13:08   - Yes, so all of my highlights are in yellow

01:13:12   on this computer, which I enjoy immensely, honestly.

01:13:16   I think it's very cute.

01:13:16   - Yeah, that's what Apple wants to do with its colored Macs,

01:13:21   it sets it to this Mac.

01:13:22   So if you get a blue iMac or a red MacBook Air someday,

01:13:27   that accent color will be the same color.

01:13:30   It'll be like on the red Mac,

01:13:31   all the highlighted text is red.

01:13:33   And on the blue Mac, all the highlighted text is blue.

01:13:35   And that's cool.

01:13:36   And if you don't like it, you just change it

01:13:38   'cause you can set your highlight color.

01:13:40   But yeah, the accent color,

01:13:41   I think by default it is like a light blue,

01:13:43   but in macOS,

01:13:46   Monterey,

01:13:49   and maybe Big Sur, but definitely Monterey,

01:13:52   apps can say, "I don't like that color."

01:13:54   I am a yellow app.

01:13:56   All of my highlights are yellow because I am a yellow app.

01:13:58   And in fact, Notes is a good example of that.

01:14:01   Notes is a yellow app and its highlights are yellow because it's notes.

01:14:05   I think I have discovered a bug in Mac OS 12.3 today by the way.

01:14:09   This has happened to me two times today and now I can I can draw a correlation where my doc has become completely

01:14:16   unresponsive and I cannot switch between spaces on my Mac.

01:14:21   This happened to me earlier today. I was like, oh, that's weird. What's happened? It just happened to me now. This is after I changed the

01:14:29   I like color and accent color just to see what they did.

01:14:33   And then my Mac in many instances

01:14:36   became completely unresponsive.

01:14:38   And restarting Finder in false quit

01:14:43   does not change that fact.

01:14:45   Everything that I can see currently in front of me

01:14:48   is working absolutely fine.

01:14:49   I can go to Safari, I can use Safari,

01:14:51   I can see Audio Hijacks doing its thing.

01:14:53   Discord, I can be in there and I can type,

01:14:55   but I can't leave this desktop.

01:14:57   I can't go to any other app.

01:14:59   They're all unusable to me right now.

01:15:02   - Oh dear.

01:15:02   - Even command tab doesn't work.

01:15:04   So that's very funny to me.

01:15:07   So that's happened.

01:15:08   So earlier I had to restart my Mac Pro to fix it.

01:15:10   And once we're done recording today,

01:15:12   I'll be restarting my iMac.

01:15:13   So there you go.

01:15:16   And Charlie asks, Jason, have you tried the Kobo Ellipse?

01:15:21   Are you interested in it?

01:15:22   Myke will ask, what is it?

01:15:24   - Kobo ellipsa is a very large 10.3 inch E Ink product.

01:15:29   - I'll just quickly, Ryan in the Discord

01:15:33   has had the same thing happen

01:15:35   and now needs to restart the computer.

01:15:36   - Yeah.

01:15:37   - Oh my God, so many upgrade ends will be listening to this

01:15:40   in front of the computer and have this issue occur to them

01:15:44   as they change the color in there.

01:15:46   What have we started, Jason?

01:15:49   - You, what have you started?

01:15:51   So the Kobo ellipsa is a big E reader.

01:15:53   It's like a 10.3 inch touchscreen.

01:15:55   I think the idea, and it's got a,

01:15:59   you can get a stylus for it.

01:16:01   And the idea is there, you're highlighting things

01:16:04   like you would with a pen, except you're using a stylus.

01:16:07   And you can look at PDFs because it's got a big screen.

01:16:09   I have no, I've not tried it, Charlie.

01:16:14   I have no opinion about it.

01:16:15   I am not interested in it.

01:16:16   The Kobo Sage, which is a smaller e-reader,

01:16:20   is still too big for me.

01:16:21   and it's nicer than the one that I'm using,

01:16:25   but the problem is I like the smaller size.

01:16:30   So I'm using the Kobo Libra,

01:16:32   which is a seven inch diagonal screen.

01:16:37   And it's not as nice as the Sage,

01:16:40   which is the eight inch screen,

01:16:41   but I just like it 'cause it's smaller.

01:16:43   So my wife is using the Sage,

01:16:45   but I'm using the Kobo Libra.

01:16:46   So the Ellipse way too big.

01:16:48   And I don't do pen on,

01:16:51   I don't do stylists, like PDF markets.

01:16:53   I know that there are people who are like

01:16:54   doing a lot of markups, especially PDFs,

01:16:56   who really like these like ink products with the styluses

01:16:59   and great, but that's not my use case.

01:17:01   I really am just reading novels.

01:17:03   - Yeah, 10 inches feels pretty big for an e-reader,

01:17:06   like a primary e-reading device.

01:17:09   - Yeah, like I said, I think it very much is a markup thing

01:17:14   where you're taking PDFs and eBooks

01:17:16   where you actually wanna take notes

01:17:17   and you want that stylists note-taking experience.

01:17:21   And that's cool, it's great that it does that.

01:17:23   But, and if you like that idea, you know who you are,

01:17:28   but I just use these things to read books

01:17:31   and I don't need a stylus

01:17:33   and I don't need a screen that big.

01:17:35   - What was the name of the big Kindle?

01:17:37   - DX.

01:17:39   - DX.

01:17:40   - DX, catchy name, huh?

01:17:41   Kindle DX. - Kindle DX.

01:17:42   - Oh, Amazon, oh, you're naming, it's so great naming.

01:17:46   - Kindle DX. - Good job.

01:17:48   - You only made one of those, right?

01:17:50   - I think so. - I think two.

01:17:52   - Maybe two of them. - I think there were two

01:17:53   versions of the Kindle DX, but yeah,

01:17:55   there was an era of the like super mega e-reader.

01:17:58   There was also a company that did it.

01:18:00   It was like a newspaper reader, basically.

01:18:02   It was a huge screen.

01:18:03   And the idea was you would download your e-newspaper to it

01:18:06   and it would look like a newspaper.

01:18:08   And that didn't, those never really went anywhere.

01:18:10   So this seems to be a new use case.

01:18:12   There are bigger e-ink screens.

01:18:13   And so people who are making e-ink products are like,

01:18:16   could we make a version with a stylus?

01:18:18   and there are several like this.

01:18:20   And is there a use case there?

01:18:22   And it sounds like maybe there is,

01:18:24   people who wanna go paperless,

01:18:25   maybe attorneys and people in academia.

01:18:28   Like I see that there could be use cases for it.

01:18:31   It's just like, I just read books

01:18:33   and so I don't even like the eight inch diagonal reader.

01:18:36   I prefer the seven inch diagonal reader,

01:18:38   even though it's inferior in a lot of ways.

01:18:40   So I'm not interested in the ellipse up,

01:18:42   but thanks for asking.

01:18:44   - And I will ask, the Libra then is,

01:18:46   Is that your current e-reader of choice still?

01:18:48   - Yeah, yeah, for me, I mean, there are other,

01:18:53   I think it's the best combination of functionality and price.

01:18:56   I think it's better than the Kindle Paperwhite.

01:19:00   It's got some features that are not as nice

01:19:02   as the Kindle Paperwhite,

01:19:03   but it has a bunch of other features that I really like.

01:19:06   I'm wondering what Amazon's gonna do with the Kindle Oasis,

01:19:10   if they're gonna, that's their high-end reader.

01:19:12   I wonder if they're gonna do a new one of that

01:19:15   and how that will fit in.

01:19:16   I really like the Kobo ecosystem.

01:19:19   I don't miss the Kindle really at all.

01:19:24   I still have Kindles kicking around, but I don't use them.

01:19:26   Like I have a Kindle Oasis, which is the high-end Kindle,

01:19:28   and I don't read books on it.

01:19:29   I read books on the Kobo Libra.

01:19:31   I just like it.

01:19:32   I like the typography.

01:19:33   Kindle typography has gotten better.

01:19:35   The new Kindle Oasis is pretty good.

01:19:37   But if you're looking at the Kindle Oasis,

01:19:39   you could look at that, the Kobo Sage,

01:19:43   which is, I believe, cheaper than the Oasis,

01:19:45   and good, just as good.

01:19:49   So, I don't know, there are a lot of good E-readers out there

01:19:52   in this little niche category,

01:19:54   and I'm liking the Kobo stuff.

01:19:55   So that's what I'm using right now.

01:19:57   - If you would like to send in a question

01:19:58   for us to answer on a future episode of Upgrade,

01:20:00   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade,

01:20:02   or you can use question mark #askupgrade

01:20:04   in the Relay FM members Discord,

01:20:06   which you can get access to if you sign up for Upgrade Plus,

01:20:09   where you'll also get longer ad-free versions

01:20:12   of

01:20:27   In the meantime, before our next episode, you go to sixcarlers.com, you go to the incomparable.com,

01:20:33   he's @jasonel and Jason hosts a couple of other shows here on Relay FM.

01:20:36   Go to relay.fm/shows, you can find those and many more to peruse for your listening

01:20:41   enjoyment.

01:20:42   I am iMyke@imyke and I too host many shows here at Relay FM.

01:20:47   Maybe there's something new which you can add to your podcast list today.

01:20:53   Is that it?

01:20:54   Have I done all the things?

01:20:55   I think so.

01:20:56   - I think so.

01:20:57   start my computer now, so I'm gonna go do that.

01:21:01   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Stell.

01:21:03   - Goodbye, everybody.

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