401: This App May Not Kill You


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00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 401.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, Bombus, and DoorDash.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:18   >> From my garage, I'm Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hello.

00:00:21   >> I don't live in Relay FM, you know.

00:00:23   >> Wherever you go, it's half of Relay FM.

00:00:27   >> Live from Mega Studio.

00:00:28   - It's your relay M for Myke.

00:00:33   - Well, is this like Snell Zone?

00:00:34   Like wherever you go?

00:00:35   - Yeah, your relay M and Steven is relay F.

00:00:38   Why F? I don't know.

00:00:39   It's not relay SM, it's relay FM.

00:00:43   So he gets to be F.

00:00:43   - It's for the F in Steven.

00:00:45   - Friendly Steven Hackett.

00:00:47   - No, you can hear it.

00:00:47   There's an F in Steven.

00:00:49   You know, like it sounds that way.

00:00:51   Steven, you know?

00:00:52   - Yeah.

00:00:53   - It just doesn't spell it that way.

00:00:54   - Steven Hackett.

00:00:56   - Steven.

00:00:57   I'm excited about today's episode, Jason.

00:01:00   - I am too.

00:01:01   - Got a lot of big stuff to cover.

00:01:03   - I'm always excited about Upgrade, Myke.

00:01:05   It's how I start my week.

00:01:06   I get to talk to my friend, Myke.

00:01:07   - Hello.

00:01:08   - We are really kind people who don't do things

00:01:10   like correct other people on their podcasts.

00:01:13   We don't do that here.

00:01:13   We're nice.

00:01:14   - We don't do like what I consider as correction ambush.

00:01:18   - No, there's very rarely surprised spiders on this show.

00:01:21   So that's good.

00:01:22   - I've been ambushed a lot recently on my podcasts.

00:01:24   I don't know if you're gonna try

00:01:25   take control of this one today who could tell I was the original ambusher though right when

00:01:30   I brought Federico Federico did the ambushing that's oh yeah but I was the engineer of the

00:01:35   ambush but yes Federico did the ambushing it's true I have a hashtag still talk question

00:01:39   comes from Brian Brian wants to know Jason if you were invited to be a guest on the flop

00:01:43   house what movie would you want to talk about flop house one of my maybe my all-time favorite

00:01:50   podcast. Ooh. Love it. Couldn't, I mean, I love it. Still listen to every episode,

00:01:57   although there's an episode that I'm holding because it's a movie I want to

00:01:59   see, so I don't want it to be spoiled before I listen, but, but generally yes, I

00:02:04   love it. Dan McCoy, Ellie Kaelin, Stuart Wellington, they're great. They just did a

00:02:08   live show. Loved it. Happy to pay for that. Just, you know, they're the best. I don't

00:02:13   know why I would be invited on to the Floth House, although I will accept, if

00:02:18   If invited, I will accept.

00:02:20   My choice, I mean, I would go with something recent if they wanted to, because they usually

00:02:24   go with something recent, so I would, you know, sign me up for Morbius or something,

00:02:28   it would be fine, like something that's kind of up my alley.

00:02:32   I would do that.

00:02:34   But if I'm going to a classic, I would go to the movie covered already on the incomparable

00:02:40   in episode 320, A Rocket Surgery.

00:02:43   It's my favorite bad movie of all time.

00:02:46   1981's Frankenstein Island.

00:02:48   And so, boys, I'm ready to talk.

00:02:51   I'm ready to take you to the exciting world of Frankenstein Island where it's not really

00:02:56   about Frankenstein, but there's a lady with a house and there's these sort of women wearing

00:03:02   weird leopard print bikinis, charming snakes, and there's an old drunk in a jail cell, and

00:03:09   the ghost of John Carradine appears at various points randomly.

00:03:13   It's quite a thing.

00:03:15   I discovered this movie in high school, and it was very fun to subject my podcasting pals

00:03:20   to this.

00:03:21   And you know, every so often I hear from Tony Sindelar, and he tells me, "You know, Jason,

00:03:26   I was thinking about Frankenstein Island the other day," and it delights me that it haunts

00:03:31   him now like it haunts me.

00:03:32   It's great.

00:03:33   [laughter]

00:03:34   If you would like to send in a #SnowTalk question of your own, just send out a tweet with the

00:03:38   hashtag SnowTalk or use question mark SnowTalk in the Real AFM members Discord.

00:03:42   Would you like to address the follow-up ambush?

00:03:45   I mean, I guess we have to.

00:03:46   - Yeah.

00:03:48   - So Stephen Hackett on Connected last week,

00:03:50   ambushed Myke with fact checking about our discussion

00:03:55   of whether Apple would make people charge,

00:03:57   pay more for colors, just pure color charges.

00:04:01   And we talked about the black MacBook

00:04:03   and the black MacBook tax.

00:04:05   And Stephen posted a blog post where he wrote about it.

00:04:10   And I read that blog post and I thought,

00:04:14   oh, it's very nice of Steven

00:04:15   'cause he's basically correcting us,

00:04:16   but he's not phrasing it as a correction.

00:04:18   And then I linked to his post and owned up to the fact

00:04:21   that Steven was providing information

00:04:23   and we kind of got it wrong last week.

00:04:24   Only to listen then over the weekend

00:04:26   while I was mowing my lawn to Connected and hear

00:04:30   that he wasn't so nice 'cause he ambushed you

00:04:32   during Connected with this information.

00:04:34   So yes, the argument there is that

00:04:39   although the black MacBook was more expensive,

00:04:42   It was also higher spec'd, which is true.

00:04:45   Although it's also true that if you spec'd the white MacBook to match it, there would

00:04:50   still be a price difference.

00:04:52   And that was the source of the black tax concept, is that even if you spec'd them identically,

00:04:59   it was more expensive.

00:05:00   So it was not just the case that there was a higher spec'd model that came in a different

00:05:04   color, which is very much like 24-inch iMac, right?

00:05:07   Where some of the colors only come in the higher spec model, you can't get it in the

00:05:10   base model.

00:05:11   even if you made them all line up, the black MacBook cost more for the same specs. There was

00:05:16   still a tariff on the color. Also, in current times, and we didn't mention this mostly because,

00:05:23   I mean, I didn't even think of it. I just don't think that this is a big deal, but it's a true

00:05:31   thing. Apple charges more for the black trackpad, mouse, and keyboard than it does for the white

00:05:36   white one, white, silver white one. Why? Because they can.

00:05:41   - I've been getting that feedback a lot. Now I'm getting this feedback about these colors

00:05:45   from two shows now. - Yeah, it's so lucky for you.

00:05:49   - So I just want everyone to stop talking about it.

00:05:51   - Let's stop, yeah. Anyway, do I, so I guess my point is, do I think Apple will make a

00:05:57   Mac or even an iPhone that is not at all different from the other models, but you pay for it

00:06:06   pay more because of the color.

00:06:08   I don't think so.

00:06:11   They're doing it for the accessories.

00:06:13   I don't think they'll do it for a Mac or an iPhone

00:06:15   or an iPad, I guess.

00:06:17   But the asterisk there is,

00:06:20   they may sequester some of the colors.

00:06:22   Like it just like the colors in the iPhone Pros

00:06:26   aren't the same as the colors in the iPhone,

00:06:28   but that's not quite the same

00:06:29   'cause you're buying a different phone.

00:06:31   And even with the iMac 24,

00:06:33   they're sequestering it,

00:06:35   but they're doing it in the step up model

00:06:39   and all the colors are the same price at that model.

00:06:42   So I think I read that question to be really like,

00:06:44   literally you can get this computer for $1,500

00:06:48   unless you want it in purple,

00:06:49   at which point it's $1,600 for the same computer.

00:06:53   And I don't think they'll do that.

00:06:54   But the counter argument is,

00:06:57   why is the black keyboard more expensive?

00:06:59   And I have no answer for you there.

00:07:00   It's pro, that's why. - Professional,

00:07:01   it's a professional one. - It's pro, yeah, it is.

00:07:03   It is.

00:07:04   I got my studio display.

00:07:06   - Yay!

00:07:07   Those are arriving.

00:07:09   James Thompson, our friend, showed us that he got his

00:07:12   and his Mac Studio too.

00:07:13   So it's happening, it's all happening.

00:07:15   - The studio display that I got,

00:07:18   it's just as a refresher to people,

00:07:21   was the standard panel

00:07:23   with the height and tilt adjustable stand.

00:07:25   So the Pro Display XDR looking stand.

00:07:30   It doesn't operate exactly as that one.

00:07:32   Like I can't do tilting.

00:07:33   Like what are they called?

00:07:34   clockwise and yeah horizontal to portrait. I thought I would talk you

00:07:40   through my impressions of using it for a couple only a couple of days. It is I was

00:07:46   immediately struck by how big and heavy the box was like to a point where I was

00:07:53   like wow this is the heaviest Apple product box I have picked up in a long

00:07:58   time and I expect the majority of I expected the majority of that weight was

00:08:03   in the stand that I had on my display. So I looked through it. The Pro Display XDR,

00:08:09   sorry, no, that's not what I got. The Apple Studio display with the regular stand is 13.9

00:08:16   pounds, which is 6.3 kilograms. The one with the height adjustable stand that I have is

00:08:21   16.9 pounds, which is three pounds heavier.

00:08:24   You have three pounds of more stand.

00:08:29   Which I'm not surprised about, right, that you've got to anchor the display, right, because

00:08:33   it can be moved around so much. You don't want it falling over. This is 7.67 kilograms.

00:08:39   The iMac that I have sitting in front of me, the 24-inch iMac, I remembered how light that

00:08:44   box felt. Well, that was 9.83 pounds, 4.46 kilograms. And I was thinking, well, what

00:08:52   could have been the heaviest thing I could remember? And I remember the iMac Pro box

00:08:57   being pretty heavy. And that was 21.5 pounds. So it was the heaviest.

00:09:02   This display is a lot lighter than the iMac Pro, but not like the 24-inch iMac.

00:09:08   That's interesting.

00:09:09   So if I really wanted the optimum floating above my desk experience, I should get a VESA

00:09:15   mount iMac 24-inch instead.

00:09:18   Yeah.

00:09:19   That would be nice.

00:09:21   I'm not going to do that.

00:09:22   Just in regards to the box, I really like the woven handles that they put on these boxes.

00:09:28   I had it with the iMac and with this.

00:09:30   Just like in general, this all I think came from the Mac Pro, like the way that they do

00:09:35   Mac boxes now, especially the desktop boxes.

00:09:37   That's so nice.

00:09:38   - Yeah, and Mac Pro makes sense, right?

00:09:39   'Cause it's lower volume, so they can experiment on a low volume product.

00:09:44   'Cause the goal here is to get plastic out of packaging.

00:09:47   And they have been working on it.

00:09:48   There's a lot of stuff that used to be kind of peel off plastic is now paper.

00:09:53   And that handle is a woven handle instead of it being a plastic handle.

00:09:56   I believe it's a woven...

00:09:59   I don't know what material it is, but I don't think it's plastic. I think it's an actual

00:10:05   plant material of some kind. And that's the idea. People can correct me if I'm wrong,

00:10:10   but like the idea here is they're trying to get bad contents out of their packaging. And

00:10:16   there's still places where there's like a plastic wrap thing. But I remember when they

00:10:21   were talking so much about their environmental stuff a few years ago, and then I would get

00:10:25   my review units in and there would be plastic everywhere.

00:10:28   And I think, well, you guys are still using a lot of plastic

00:10:30   in every one of these that you sell.

00:10:32   And they have been working on that,

00:10:35   which I think is, you know, it helps, I think.

00:10:38   - And like, 'cause even the Mac Studio, right,

00:10:42   they have a kind of, I saw some unboxings,

00:10:45   basically a cardboard shock absorber, right?

00:10:47   - Yeah. - In the base of the box.

00:10:48   It's like stuff like that.

00:10:49   It's like, instead of using foam or whatever,

00:10:51   I think it's really cool.

00:10:53   - For sure.

00:10:53   The panel itself is fantastic, the display. I was immediately struck with the richness

00:11:00   in the colours compared to the LG display that I was using prior. I wasn't using one

00:11:06   of the ultra-fine or anything like that. I don't even remember, I don't know what colour

00:11:10   gamut it had. But this is a Mac with the P3 colour. Obviously it's similar to my iMac

00:11:18   display, but just in the environment of using my MacBook Pro in that desk with, you know,

00:11:24   it was just like, oh wow, this looks much, much different. I decided I'm going to try

00:11:29   running it on like the default display settings. I usually would gravitate towards less space,

00:11:35   so like more space I should say, so I had more space on the display, but I'm sticking

00:11:41   with the kind of regular because it does look the best. You know, I was originally thinking

00:11:46   to do this because I've gone down from a 31 inch display to a 27 inch display for this

00:11:51   desk but instead I'm just trying to get used to it because really it just looks best that

00:11:59   way.

00:12:00   It's true.

00:12:01   Not doing any scaling or anything like that.

00:12:02   Running a little native resolution there.

00:12:04   Yeah but the panel's great you know like there isn't really much to say on here if you've

00:12:07   used you know any iMac in years.

00:12:10   5K, iMac or iMac Pro the most recent ones.

00:12:13   - Well, the original was a little bit less of a panel,

00:12:15   but the last few years it's been this panel.

00:12:19   And yeah, that's absolutely right.

00:12:22   I wanted to mention something about the panel that came up.

00:12:25   Somebody tweeted at me, Andrew Nelson.

00:12:27   He pointed out, related to a completely unrelated

00:12:30   CGP gray thread about giant spiders in Hawaii,

00:12:34   which we're not gonna talk about.

00:12:36   But this display has a laminated screen, I believe.

00:12:40   So it's like the panel is laminated.

00:12:42   It's up against the glass.

00:12:44   What this means is theoretically,

00:12:46   I couldn't get a spider in my screen

00:12:49   like I did way back when in 2017,

00:12:51   when a spider crawled between the panel

00:12:53   and the glass on my iMac.

00:12:55   I don't think, I think this is a,

00:12:58   I can't say it's a spider-free display, right?

00:13:00   The spiders could crawl around.

00:13:01   - There are holes.

00:13:02   There are holes in this.

00:13:04   - There are holes 'cause there's vents and fans and stuff.

00:13:07   Spiders would have to fight against the airflow,

00:13:11   But the key point is it couldn't happen like it happened

00:13:15   to my 5K iMac where I woke up one day

00:13:17   and there was like a little dead spider in my screen

00:13:22   where I just had to look at it until I got it fixed.

00:13:25   So thumbs up for lamination is what I'm saying.

00:13:29   - And yeah, I didn't really think about that,

00:13:31   but I guess that's one of the things

00:13:32   that makes it look so good too, right?

00:13:34   It's just like the pixels are right there in front of you.

00:13:36   Like, I like that.

00:13:37   I like the look of that a lot.

00:13:39   So it's a subtle thing, but it makes a big difference

00:13:42   for just how good the panel looks.

00:13:45   Obviously I'm using it with my,

00:13:48   you know, the way I've got it set up,

00:13:49   I've had a Thunderbolt dock, the CalDigit dock for a while

00:13:52   that I was using with my display

00:13:53   and I've done some rejiggering to use the dock still

00:13:57   because I have a bunch of things I want to plug in.

00:13:59   It's a mixture of USB-C and USB-A devices.

00:14:03   So the CalDigit dock has that

00:14:05   because obviously this display just has three USB-C ports

00:14:09   that I could use.

00:14:10   And I've noticed immediately lag with my Logitech mouse.

00:14:15   I used the Logitech MX Master 3 mouse,

00:14:17   and I used the little Logitech receiver that they give you.

00:14:21   And it just was not working very well at all.

00:14:23   I expect that this is an issue with the CalDigit dock

00:14:26   for some reason, because on my,

00:14:28   I remembered that I had issues before on my LG monitor,

00:14:31   but the LG monitor had a USB-A port on the back,

00:14:34   so I just put the Logitech receiver in there

00:14:36   and it was no issue.

00:14:37   I don't know why Logitech do not make a USB-C version of their unifying receiver.

00:14:43   Still, it's just USB-A. I've switched to Bluetooth on this mouse for a bit and that's fine.

00:14:50   I prefer the receiver, I do find it to be more reliable.

00:14:53   So I did just order today at Steven's recommendation a USB-C to A dongle and I'm going to try plugging

00:15:00   it into the display.

00:15:02   just in general though there is some rethinking that my desk requires and I'm

00:15:07   not really sure what I'm gonna be doing yet like everything needs to be

00:15:11   rearranged I don't know where to put the laptop anymore because I would put the

00:15:14   laptop underneath the display because the og display that I had clamped on the

00:15:18   back of the desk so there was space underneath but now the foot of the

00:15:21   studio display is there so I can't put it there so I've been I don't know where

00:15:26   to put it you know I've been thinking I wanted to get one of those 12 South

00:15:29   things that stands it up but I saw some reviews online that were seeming to suggest that even

00:15:36   though they claim they have an insert in their book arc it's called for the 14 inch that

00:15:42   it's a little too tight so I'm not sure if I want to go with that option. I have some

00:15:47   rethinking to do for how my desk arrangement is going to be. I'm not sure if the CalDigit

00:15:52   dock will remain because I don't really need a thunderbolt dock. I need something that's

00:15:58   is just USB-C and there are lots of USB-C docks out there that are labeled typically

00:16:03   as travel things but they're much more simple and I might go in that route eventually. I'm

00:16:08   not sure yet I haven't decided. But I will say that overall even with this rearrangement

00:16:14   required my desk looks so much nicer with the display on it. This display is just a

00:16:19   good looking piece of computer hardware way more than the big LG ergonomic display. I

00:16:27   the LG Ergo display on there before. That thing is just not a good looking computer.

00:16:32   But really all of this has been completely, the main reason I wanted this display is that

00:16:39   when I plug in the cable to my, I'm still having, I'm still plugging my MacBook Pro

00:16:46   into the cable that goes into my CalDigit dock and then that dock goes into the Thunderbolt

00:16:50   like port of the display so I can still use everything as normal. But I plug that cable

00:16:55   in the monitor turns on immediately. Every single time without fail. And I did not have

00:17:01   this experience with any other monitor that I was using previously and it drove me crazy

00:17:05   every single day as I had to plug and unplug something to get my monitor to turn on. Sometimes

00:17:12   it would only take one cable for me to unplug, sometimes it would take multiple cables, sometimes

00:17:17   I'd have to open and close the laptop, sometimes I wouldn't, I'd have to do any of that. Just

00:17:20   Laptops closed plug in the cable press either, you know

00:17:24   One key on the keyboard or I click the mouse and the screen comes on and I'm ready to go

00:17:27   Like and that's exactly what I wanted and that's what I've gotten and I'm super happy with it

00:17:31   The height adjustability of this stand is excellent. It's really smooth

00:17:36   Something I did notice is it does wobble like when I'm typing

00:17:41   The display wobbles now again, this is normal to every display that I have used that suspends itself in some way

00:17:50   What I will say to people is if you think that this is something that would bother you do not get this version of the display

00:17:55   Get the one with just a tilt stand and get something to put it on

00:17:59   Like if I'm typing and I'm not an aggressive type of I'm typing

00:18:04   The desk will move right like you you you put bounce in the desk and this the monitor picks it up

00:18:11   Right, like the monitor shakes a little bit again

00:18:13   I sound very used to this now, but you know any monitor is going to shake when your desk shakes though

00:18:18   So it's way more pronounced. It's more pronounced

00:18:22   Okay

00:18:22   So like I would say it's probably akin to if you use a Vasa

00:18:25   Like it would probably be pretty similar if you use a Vasa suspended monitor

00:18:29   But this is like this is not something that I notice at all on the desk that I'm on right now

00:18:34   where I've got my iMac sitting on top of just a stand because it's

00:18:39   the

00:18:41   There isn't so much of a residual wobble

00:18:43   afterwards and this I mean the things not going wild but I just know how particular Mac users can be right some people and if you

00:18:51   Wouldn't have thought this was a thing that could happen. I think it's a good PSA to remind people that it can happen

00:18:57   So but the height adjustability is a must for me. I got my ruler out to scales and rulers

00:19:03   I've been dealing with over the last couple of days. So my iMac

00:19:06   The bottom pixel edge, right? So like if you imagine from where the screen ends, right?

00:19:13   That is 15.2 centimeters to the desk.

00:19:18   The reason I say it that way is like the actual bottom

00:19:22   of the computer is 8.5 centimeters to the desk,

00:19:24   but it has the chin, right?

00:19:25   - Yeah, exactly.

00:19:26   - So an iMac, the 24 inch iMac sitting straight on the desk,

00:19:31   that's how high, that's like kind of 15 centimeters,

00:19:34   15.2 centimeters from the desk is where the monitor begins.

00:19:37   Now I have to put mine on a little stand

00:19:39   'cause that's too low for me.

00:19:41   The studio displays a comfortable height.

00:19:44   That measurement is 19.5 centimeters.

00:19:47   So it's like four and a bit centimeters difference.

00:19:51   That to me is the level of this is comfortable

00:19:56   to this is uncomfortable.

00:19:57   - That's good.

00:19:58   Also, if you do a,

00:19:59   I don't know if you have a sit stand desk,

00:20:01   but you usually need to adjust the height

00:20:04   when you change configurations too,

00:20:06   or at least a lot of people do.

00:20:08   That's one of the reasons I have my monitor

00:20:10   usually on an arm is when I go standing,

00:20:14   I need it at a different height.

00:20:15   - Yeah, and now I have this, right?

00:20:17   And it really is great.

00:20:19   There's a lot of variation in the height

00:20:22   that you can get from the display stand,

00:20:24   so I'm really happy with that.

00:20:26   The second thing that I was intrigued about

00:20:28   was the webcam flickering.

00:20:30   Now, here's a funny thing about this.

00:20:34   When I open any app for the first time

00:20:38   that uses the camera, I get the flickering

00:20:42   from my overhead lights as I had prior to Mac OS 12.3.

00:20:47   If I quit the app and relaunch it, it's fixed.

00:20:52   This is not the behavior on my iMac or on my MacBook Pro.

00:20:59   - And it's not when you engage the camera the first time,

00:21:02   because if you go to a different app, it also does it?

00:21:05   - Correct.

00:21:06   So it happened in FaceTime, I quit FaceTime, I wrote some notes being like "oh they've

00:21:11   ruined it, it doesn't work" and then I open FaceTime again and it happened for half a

00:21:15   second and then it fixed itself.

00:21:19   Then I opened Zoom, same thing.

00:21:22   I wonder if there's something in the background that's basically doing flicker detection.

00:21:27   Per app?

00:21:28   It should be doing that, like because there are other, like Logitech's cameras can do

00:21:31   this, right?

00:21:32   Like other cameras do this, they recognize there's a flicker and then they fix it.

00:21:35   iPhones do it. So I've seen it happen on iPhones before. Like it recognizes it to flicker just

00:21:40   for a second and then it adjusts something in the camera so you stop getting the flickering

00:21:45   from the lights. I don't know why it's happening. I mean it's very strange but then it fixes

00:21:53   itself. So it's odd. I now know that it happens. I give this recommendation to people out there

00:21:59   who are getting one of these and have a similar situation to me. Just quit the app and start

00:22:04   again and the flickering will stop. Very odd. But in general, I mean, I share the same feeling

00:22:11   about the camera as many reviewers. It looks worse compared to my MacBook Pro and my iMac

00:22:17   in my opinion. The colors are really washed out. I look and everything looks really smooth.

00:22:23   I look like an oil painting.

00:22:24   It is, yeah. It is doing, I've seen a bunch of samples and I've seen it in certain light

00:22:28   with mine, it is aggressively processing.

00:22:33   James Thompson posted sort of two comparisons in his office space, and you can see like,

00:22:38   I mean, you can actually see what it's doing probably wrong, which may be the thing that

00:22:43   they fix in software, which is he was, he had one shot where there's like the blacks

00:22:47   are blacker and that you can see some shadows and stuff.

00:22:50   And then on the studio display webcam, it's like it's trying desperately to have there

00:22:54   be no blacks in the display or in the screen at all, and it's trying to lighten everything

00:22:59   and get him to be completely the same. It's like a low dynamic range, like let's smooth

00:23:06   this out as much as possible and have as little dynamic range as possible. And it does actually

00:23:11   feel like the processing is making bad decisions, like let's flatten this. And when I got in

00:23:18   a lower light situation, even when we were doing our webcast the other week, at the end

00:23:22   of it where I was, I dropped the blinds in my office and turned off some of the lights

00:23:25   and or even when I turned on the really bright lights, it started to look weird because it

00:23:30   was trying to flatten everything out. So some of that is an effect of taking a portion of

00:23:36   a wide angle camera and adjusting it and not having as much resolution. But I do think

00:23:42   some of it is that there it's making some bad choices about what you think your picture

00:23:49   should look like and it's like I want a really artificial and maybe this was like what they

00:23:54   thought like this is what people want for their web their video conferences right is

00:23:59   a flat you know no contrast no shadows as flat and and smooth as possible but you go

00:24:07   too far down that path and yeah you look like a painting

00:24:09   I've also experienced the weird center stage thing where it feels like the camera person

00:24:15   stop paying attention. Sure. Where like you move and it takes a long time and then it's

00:24:20   like oh there you are and which is again not what I've experienced with iPads. And then

00:24:24   my favorite thing is that when you turn it off and the framing is way too high. Yeah!

00:24:29   Yeah it's like suddenly it's like you're peeking in from the bottom of the screen hello! It

00:24:33   looks like bring your child to work day. Yeah I don't know what they were thinking about

00:24:38   that it's the way it's framed. It's so weird because it's not, you know, it can see my

00:24:45   whole body or at least my whole, you know, sitting in a chair upper half when it's in

00:24:50   center stage mode. But when I turn it off, it's like, no, I can only really see up to

00:24:54   your, you know, from your nose up. It's like, well, why did that, why was that chosen as

00:24:59   the off crop for this display? It seems so strange. And of course there's no setting

00:25:03   'cause a nice thing you could do is say,

00:25:06   when I turn it off, here's what I want the crop to be,

00:25:09   or at least, or give me a little UI

00:25:10   where I could sort of drag out.

00:25:12   I don't wanna use center stage,

00:25:13   but I wanna choose what my crop is.

00:25:15   That's the beauty of having this wide angle lens

00:25:18   is that you could actually sort of choose.

00:25:19   No, it's just gonna give you your eyes

00:25:23   and your head, top of your head, that's it.

00:25:26   So it's, I don't get it.

00:25:28   - Kind of like it's a comparison.

00:25:29   If I use the webcam on my iMac,

00:25:32   It's almost kind of like it's looking down on me a little bit,

00:25:35   but I still see my head and most of my shoulders.

00:25:37   If I turn off or like I open Photobooth because center stage doesn't work there,

00:25:41   it's basically like just three quarters of the top part of my head is all you see.

00:25:47   It's like, "What is going on?"

00:25:49   Like, it's just such a weird, very high crop that it's taken here.

00:25:52   Because I don't know what they do.

00:25:54   Very weird.

00:25:56   You know, look, I share the same thoughts as most people out there,

00:26:01   reviewers, listeners, Apple is doing just a very bad job of front facing cameras in

00:26:06   their computers and I kind of can't believe we're still having this conversation.

00:26:11   It's just not acceptable anymore.

00:26:13   They have to do a better job, especially on something like this, when there is room.

00:26:20   I understand the argument a little bit more for the laptops because they're really thin.

00:26:26   These monitors are thick.

00:26:28   you could put a lot of hardware in there if you wanted to. They've just chosen not to.

00:26:33   Whatever they're prioritizing to deprioritize the camera, I'm very confident it's the wrong

00:26:38   decision today.

00:26:39   Yeah, I think they've been giving a lot of feedback about that, which is good, because

00:26:42   that is one way that they change things. I have a couple of theories. One is, and I know

00:26:46   I talked about it before, I wrote a Macworld column about it, I think they get caught up

00:26:50   in reusing their tech, and so they had the center stage camera from the iPad, and they're

00:26:55   "Oh, people love it, I'm gonna put it in this $1600 display."

00:26:58   And maybe the context of a computer display,

00:27:03   people had higher expectations for quality.

00:27:05   And also that they chose, they prioritize,

00:27:10   and again, I can argue this

00:27:11   'cause I really like center stage

00:27:12   and in most of my lighting conditions,

00:27:14   the camera looks fine, but here's the thing.

00:27:16   They could have put, let's just say it,

00:27:19   they could have put a 4K webcam in there

00:27:21   and they prioritize center stage

00:27:23   'cause they're like, "Yeah."

00:27:24   you know, actually the lower quality camera

00:27:26   with center stage is better because we think it's better

00:27:30   or because we invented it

00:27:31   or because our plan is to reuse this

00:27:34   or, and I think this is a theory that might be true,

00:27:37   we're gonna save the more expensive part

00:27:39   for our more expensive display that we sell for $2,500,

00:27:44   'cause I think maybe that product is coming.

00:27:46   And that this is the bottom of the line display.

00:27:51   But I agree with you that

00:27:54   I think the reaction shows that Apple's assumption

00:27:59   that the center stage camera would be good enough

00:28:02   in this context was probably wrong

00:28:06   or at least a little misguided

00:28:08   and that a lot of people expected something better

00:28:12   and that it was the wrong trade off to make.

00:28:14   Now I really like center stage

00:28:15   and I'm glad that it's on the Mac,

00:28:17   but and I'm a little mystified why a 12 megapixel,

00:28:21   like a 12 megapixel camera facing you,

00:28:25   that's like, that should be really good, right?

00:28:29   But it's, something is going on here.

00:28:31   And I know it's a wide angle,

00:28:33   so it's grabbing a lot of pixels

00:28:34   that it actually can't use most of the time.

00:28:36   And that's part of their decision-making process here.

00:28:38   But yeah, whether they got caught up

00:28:42   in their own excitement about center stage

00:28:44   or whether they're actually withholding a better camera

00:28:47   for a more expensive product,

00:28:49   I think I would argue that that would be a mistake too,

00:28:51   because this is a $1600 display

00:28:53   and you really ought to prioritize that.

00:28:55   And I mean, I'll throw in the heap, Myke,

00:28:58   the Apple's, I get the laptop limitations,

00:29:02   but yeah, on the iMac and on this display,

00:29:05   I also am disappointed about the fact

00:29:06   that we have Face ID on iPhones and iPads

00:29:10   and they haven't done that on the Mac either.

00:29:12   And that's also disappointing.

00:29:14   - Last thing I wanted to mention is the speakers,

00:29:17   they're pretty good,

00:29:18   but it kind of doesn't really matter to me.

00:29:19   I'm just happy to have speakers on my monitor again, I guess I didn't.

00:29:23   On my OG display I didn't have speakers.

00:29:26   So if I wanted to play any audio I would either plug in my AirPods, I would play it very quickly

00:29:31   on my closed laptop, which actually was better than I would have expected it to sound.

00:29:36   The speakers on the MacBook Pro are so good they break through the closeness.

00:29:41   Or I would use AirPlay to my HomePod Mini.

00:29:45   None of those are as good and as useful as just having good speakers built into the display,

00:29:49   which I didn't have on the display that this replaced.

00:29:52   So yeah, I would say all in all, for me,

00:29:55   this was worth waiting for,

00:29:56   and I'm really happy with this product.

00:29:59   It is not perfect, but it does most of the things I need

00:30:03   better and/or to my level of expecting

00:30:06   with just a few things that they've fallen down on.

00:30:09   But honestly, with the camera being the main issue for me,

00:30:13   I expected that.

00:30:14   - Yeah, and it shows,

00:30:15   and this is the thing that I think gets missed.

00:30:17   ATP did a good segment about this

00:30:18   where they've tried to explain like why the retina resolution

00:30:23   matters to some people and why if you're in the Apple ecosystem

00:30:26   having an Apple built monitor that sort of looks nice

00:30:29   and fits in with stuff and is tested to work.

00:30:33   So you plug it in and things charge and things work

00:30:36   and all that like there is value in that.

00:30:38   And this is I wanted to do a little tangent

00:30:40   about the reviews of this product

00:30:42   and the subjectivity of reviews in general

00:30:44   because a bunch of these reviews are,

00:30:48   but there are other monitors that are cheaper,

00:30:52   which totally misses the point

00:30:53   that this monitor is filling a niche

00:30:55   that previously only the ultra fine filled.

00:30:58   And I would prefer a world

00:31:01   where there was lots of stiff competition

00:31:03   to make displays at the resolution

00:31:07   that Apple has defined as a retina resolution for the Mac.

00:31:11   And the problem is there isn't,

00:31:14   there just isn't, nobody else did it.

00:31:16   There's just the ultra fine.

00:31:18   And now this product is there and it is an Apple product.

00:31:20   And it is better in a lot of ways than that ultra fine,

00:31:23   which wasn't that much less expensive than this product.

00:31:26   And that has a value and it doesn't matter

00:31:30   if you care about that stuff,

00:31:32   it doesn't matter that you could buy a cheaper monitor

00:31:35   that's at a lesser resolution

00:31:37   because that's not the product you want.

00:31:39   And that's not your preference on this.

00:31:42   Also, I find perplexing some of the reviews that complain

00:31:45   that this monitor isn't another product that doesn't exist.

00:31:49   Quinn Nelson recently did a video

00:31:53   on his Stasi Labs channel about this display.

00:31:58   And it's largely him complaining.

00:32:01   And Quinn is great.

00:32:02   I love him, I love his videos,

00:32:03   but that video is basically,

00:32:05   why isn't this a $2,500 micro LED display?

00:32:09   which I would argue, that's a good question.

00:32:11   That would be an interesting product.

00:32:15   Apple may be making that product.

00:32:17   There are rumors that Apple is making that product.

00:32:19   That said, this is not a $2,500 micro LED display.

00:32:23   It's a $1,600 display.

00:32:26   And at least personally,

00:32:30   it doesn't change the fact that a whole lot of people

00:32:32   have been falling over themselves to buy this display

00:32:35   because it fills a need

00:32:36   that has been so poorly filled for seven years

00:32:38   when Apple said, "We're getting out of the business

00:32:39   "and we're just having LG make a monitor."

00:32:41   And that literally is the only one

00:32:43   that kind of fills all of these needs

00:32:45   other than the $6,000 display.

00:32:47   A lot of us, and I'm speaking for myself here too,

00:32:51   if they made a $2,500 micro LED display, I wouldn't buy it.

00:32:56   Not spending that money.

00:32:59   I'm not gonna, I'll buy a $1,600 display

00:33:01   and I have $2,500 display, something like that

00:33:04   with the cutting edge tech in it.

00:33:06   - Yeah, I know how nice it would look for my needs.

00:33:11   I'd really rather have a $900 cheaper display

00:33:15   that is this display.

00:33:17   And if you boil it down beyond that,

00:33:20   what you end up with is essentially the argument

00:33:22   that I wish it was cheaper,

00:33:24   which you can make about literally

00:33:25   every Apple product ever made, which is like, yes.

00:33:28   Would I rather that this monitor be $1,000?

00:33:31   Sure, that would save me $600.

00:33:34   - I would like it to be 10, just $10.

00:33:37   - It should just be bundled with the studio.

00:33:39   You get buy one, get one free.

00:33:41   And again, like you can make that argument,

00:33:45   I wish Apple stuff were cheaper.

00:33:47   People have been making that argument

00:33:48   literally since Apple started and guess what?

00:33:51   Apple isn't gonna make it cheaper for you.

00:33:53   They're not, they just, they'd like money

00:33:56   and they know people will pay extra for the Apple stuff.

00:33:59   And so they will, and that's what this display is.

00:34:01   So in the end, I think a lot of these reviews

00:34:03   are basically like, I can't believe that Apple people

00:34:07   are so focused on Apple's level of design and quality

00:34:11   and the resolution of the display,

00:34:13   that they're willing to spend $1600

00:34:15   when they could buy something that is lesser,

00:34:18   but it's stuff that, you know, whatever for cheaper.

00:34:21   And I don't know, it's kind of the classic

00:34:24   Mac versus PC argument, which is all this stuff

00:34:28   that you guys care about, I don't care about.

00:34:31   And so why are you buying this thing?

00:34:33   You're dumb or you're cultists or you're suckers

00:34:36   that have been conned by Apple's marketing.

00:34:38   And I'm not saying that if you don't want this display

00:34:42   and if you like those other displays,

00:34:44   there's anything wrong with that.

00:34:45   I know a bunch of people who have non-Apple,

00:34:47   non-ultra fine external displays with less resolution

00:34:50   and they're fine with it.

00:34:52   That's fine.

00:34:53   I have a problem with somebody looking at a product

00:34:56   that a whole lot of us have really, really wanted.

00:34:59   And yeah, we wish it was a little bit better

00:35:00   and yeah, we wish it was a little bit cheaper,

00:35:02   but it fills a thing that has not been fulfilled

00:35:04   really by anything for seven years

00:35:07   and say all the stuff that you care about doesn't matter

00:35:11   just by a cheap display.

00:35:13   Because what kind of argument is that?

00:35:15   And that is a function of some of the reviews

00:35:18   of this product that I don't appreciate

00:35:22   because they are discounting things

00:35:25   that some of us care about.

00:35:27   And just the existence of a cheap monitor

00:35:30   does not mean that everybody should run out

00:35:31   and buy a cheap monitor.

00:35:32   This is, I wish there was competition for Apple,

00:35:35   don't get me wrong.

00:35:36   I want somebody to make this display

00:35:38   or a version of this display and sell it for $800

00:35:41   and totally undercut Apple.

00:35:43   But guess what?

00:35:43   Apple tried that seven years ago, didn't happen.

00:35:46   So this is what we're left with,

00:35:48   is something from Apple that does everything

00:35:50   that Apple promises that it does

00:35:52   other than maybe the center stage should have been better.

00:35:55   But like you get what I'm saying?

00:35:57   It's like it is the Apple monitor.

00:35:59   And yes, it does cost more than we wanna pay

00:36:02   just like everything else Apple makes.

00:36:04   I'm glad it exists and a lot of people are very glad

00:36:08   that it exists and we'll buy it.

00:36:10   And the existence of cheaper monitors

00:36:13   that don't do what this monitor does, doesn't change that.

00:36:18   The imagination of a dream monitor

00:36:22   made of cutting edge technology

00:36:24   that costs another 1000 or $1,500

00:36:27   doesn't change what this product is.

00:36:29   So I think you can be critical of some of the choices Apple made in this product, but

00:36:33   I think that there are a lot of people who go beyond that and start to say, "Well, why

00:36:37   would you ever buy this when you can just buy a $600 Dell monitor and be fine?"

00:36:41   It's like, "Okay, yeah, I could buy a HP laptop for $500 too, but I don't."

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00:39:20   and you'll get 25% off your membership as fitbod.me/upgrade for 25% off. Our thanks

00:39:26   to Fitbod for their support of this show and Relay FM. So your studio, max studio mounting system

00:39:35   came in, right? Your new shelf? Is that what it's called? It's a system. It's quite a system. It's a

00:39:40   plastic or I got a loose site. I don't know what it is. Acrylic, let's say. This is the

00:39:48   newer technology new shelf dual mount for the Apple Mac Mini 2010 to current. It is currently

00:39:57   available only one in stock because –

00:39:59   I think we've done a run on this.

00:40:02   Yeah. And it's – they said more coming soon, which I think is interesting. Available

00:40:08   normally $44.99, currently a cyber saver for $24.75. Probably by the time you hear this,

00:40:13   they'll be sold out of this. Basically, Otherworld Computing made a thing that was

00:40:18   the size of sort of two Mac minis because they sell a bunch of newer technology branded

00:40:24   mini-sized hard drive enclosures and stuff like that so you can make a stack. I used

00:40:28   to have a mini-stack hard drive that my Mac Mini sat on. And so they made this acrylic

00:40:35   thing, and it basically is the size of these two-stack Mac Minis, and it has four holes

00:40:40   and screws, and you screw it under your desk, and then your Mac Mini is under your desk

00:40:44   with that hard drive attached. And guess what? It fits the Mac Studio. Not perfectly, it's

00:40:49   got a hole in the bottom, and the idea there is that there's the little bump on the bottom

00:40:53   of the Mac Mini and it will sort of like drop in and it's a little too small for the Mac

00:40:58   Studio to drop in but it's fine. It fits fine. It's got little tabs on the back. Stephen

00:41:03   Hackett was really concerned that if you tried to plug in something on one of the front ports,

00:41:06   all you would do is shoot your Mac Studio out the back end and that there are little

00:41:12   tabs there to kind of hold it in place so it doesn't do that. But it's completely open

00:41:17   on the front and the back and there's enough space in there for there to be actually some

00:41:22   airflow on the sides as well and the top. And so I bought one just to try it out and

00:41:27   I put it under my desk and that's where my Mac studio is now. It's actually under my

00:41:30   desk toward the front so I can plug into the front ports or put a card in the SD card slot.

00:41:36   I can reach behind and press the power button if I want to do that. It's all kind of reachable

00:41:41   if I just kind of lean over a little bit. It's nice. Somebody sent me a link to somebody

00:41:48   who is making a 3D printed max studio under mount and it looks nice because it's gonna

00:41:57   be to the exact specifications of the max studio. It is 3D printed so it's like it's

00:42:04   gonna be a little kind of textured plastic thing which is fine. What I really would like

00:42:10   to see so I've got my USB interface audio interface in something that's made for like

00:42:15   I don't even know what, some PC something,

00:42:19   but it's like a little metal shelf.

00:42:21   And that's what I'd really like to see,

00:42:24   is somebody to make a,

00:42:26   and these are undoubtedly already being fabricated,

00:42:28   but like a metal version of what OWC did for the Mac mini,

00:42:33   that is exactly the size of the Mac studio,

00:42:38   or with some room, but fits it.

00:42:40   And the ones that are out there on Amazon today

00:42:41   are all a little too big or too small,

00:42:45   'cause I think a metal one would make me feel better

00:42:47   than this acrylic one, but it seems perfectly stable

00:42:50   and it works.

00:42:52   It's funny 'cause it's not the product it's meant for,

00:42:54   but it does work.

00:42:56   And I would be shocked also if OWC wasn't working already

00:42:59   on like a new version of this

00:43:01   that actually fits the Max Studio.

00:43:05   But in the meantime, they are making hay

00:43:08   with the new shelf dual mount that they made years ago

00:43:14   and have been selling discounted.

00:43:15   And it's suddenly more relevant than it was.

00:43:18   I also expect that somebody like 12 South

00:43:21   is gonna come up with a bunch of Mac Studio accessories

00:43:23   at some point that are also very nicely designed

00:43:26   and a little more expensive maybe than you'd like,

00:43:28   but they're so nice that you end up buying them anyway,

00:43:30   'cause that's their bit.

00:43:32   But yeah, it's great.

00:43:33   It's so nice.

00:43:34   You talked about your desk layout.

00:43:37   After a couple of weeks with a Mac Studio on my desk,

00:43:41   I really like that it's under my desk now.

00:43:44   My desk just feels that much more open

00:43:47   and there's really only two cables running under my desk

00:43:50   or running over my desk.

00:43:52   There's the power cable for the display.

00:43:54   And then there's the Thunderbolt cable

00:43:55   that goes from the display to the Mac studio,

00:43:57   which at the moment is running forward

00:44:00   over the front of my desk,

00:44:02   because it's the Apple one that's only a meter long

00:44:04   and it can't go the other way.

00:44:07   So I also bought a two meter long Thunderbolt cable

00:44:10   for way more money than I would like.

00:44:11   - For a million dollars?

00:44:13   - Yeah, for $10 million.

00:44:14   - Wow, $10 million.

00:44:16   - Yeah, but it's really good.

00:44:17   It's really good.

00:44:18   And so I'm looking forward to

00:44:21   when I get the thesis mount display next week,

00:44:24   and I'm gonna be able to run those two cables

00:44:26   over the arm and everything else will be hidden away.

00:44:30   I'm looking forward to that.

00:44:31   That'll be great.

00:44:32   But in the meantime,

00:44:33   it has been fun to get that thing under my desk

00:44:36   where it feels like it belongs.

00:44:39   The sheriff of Rheumerville, Mark Gurman,

00:44:41   is reporting that Apple is currently working

00:44:43   on building an entire infrastructure

00:44:46   to provide financial services.

00:44:48   This would include, quote, "Payment processing,

00:44:50   "risk assessment for lending, fraud analysis,

00:44:53   "credit checks, and additional customer service functions

00:44:57   "such as the handling of disputes."

00:44:59   This adds even more weight to our discussion

00:45:01   about credit kudos last week,

00:45:03   not being for the Apple card, but for something else.

00:45:07   Mark mentions that this effort is focused on future products

00:45:11   rather than Apple's current lineup of services.

00:45:15   - Right, there is this one, you know,

00:45:17   this idea that they're going to convert the Apple,

00:45:19   the iPhone upgrade program, which is a loan,

00:45:24   and then you can, you know, it's structured that way

00:45:27   into a service that would be administered by Apple

00:45:31   where you'd pay a monthly fee.

00:45:32   - And there's also this like pay-in-for installments thing

00:45:35   which apparently is coming too.

00:45:37   - Right, because that's very, very popular, right?

00:45:39   That's a trend that I know we haven't discussed it,

00:45:42   but these services that allow you to pay

00:45:45   four monthly installments instead

00:45:48   that are very popular with the Youngs,

00:45:50   that Apple's gonna build its own version of that too.

00:45:54   And this is all, I know we talked about this

00:45:57   a little bit last week, but like,

00:45:59   this is exactly what you would expect from Apple,

00:46:02   even though this is an area where you're like,

00:46:03   really Apple's gonna build financial products?

00:46:06   It's like, yeah, but what is this really?

00:46:07   This is Apple starting something by finding partners

00:46:11   and then realizing all the strengths and weaknesses

00:46:13   of the partners and saying,

00:46:15   we could build our own version of this

00:46:17   and keep it all in house.

00:46:18   And they apparently are doing that.

00:46:21   They're gonna build their own financial structure.

00:46:24   We joked about it with the Apple card,

00:46:26   but now I'm really wondering,

00:46:27   can the bank of Apple be far behind?

00:46:30   even if nobody can get an account at the bank of Apple,

00:46:34   it would not surprise me if Apple just continues

00:46:36   to build things and requires--

00:46:38   - If you have all the money in the world,

00:46:41   you might as well do something with it.

00:46:42   Yeah, what else are you gonna do?

00:46:44   Just start using that cash to secure against lending.

00:46:47   Like, why not, you know, go for it.

00:46:49   I don't know what this is gonna look like, honestly.

00:46:51   Like, you know, obviously I can read what Mark has said,

00:46:53   but like, do I imagine them to actually have bank accounts?

00:46:57   Like, I don't know.

00:46:58   - No, I mean, I wouldn't.

00:47:00   Although, in some ways, Apple Cash is kind of that.

00:47:05   Also, I'll point out Apple Cash only in the US still, right?

00:47:09   And I wonder if some of this is,

00:47:11   they use the US as a test ground and they're like,

00:47:13   "Okay, if we wanna build this out,

00:47:15   "we can either partner with different partners

00:47:16   "in all these different countries,

00:47:18   "or we could just do it."

00:47:21   And it makes me wonder if that's part of this too,

00:47:23   is that they're just gonna roll it out

00:47:25   and they're gonna take care of getting in every country

00:47:28   and rolling it out instead of finding partners

00:47:30   and having negotiate.

00:47:31   It's probably hard too, right?

00:47:32   To find a willing partner who is willing to do

00:47:35   what Apple demands of them.

00:47:36   - It's harder though, Jason, to get banking licenses.

00:47:39   So I don't really know what their plan is.

00:47:42   - It is, but it depends on what licenses are required

00:47:44   to do what, but yeah.

00:47:45   - Or what they wanna do, yeah.

00:47:46   - It's true.

00:47:47   And that's the case.

00:47:49   It was the case with their carrier rollouts too, right?

00:47:51   The advantage they had there is that they had a product

00:47:53   everybody wanted.

00:47:54   So yeah, I don't know.

00:47:56   It's fascinating.

00:47:57   it seems like they really got to the point

00:47:58   where they realized there was a bunch of stuff

00:48:00   that they felt either they could make more money

00:48:04   doing it in house or that they were things that they,

00:48:06   the products that they could not easily create

00:48:09   by working with partners.

00:48:10   And so they've decided to just go ahead

00:48:12   and build some financial services functionality inside.

00:48:17   Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what form it is.

00:48:19   - Never discount Apple's allergy

00:48:21   towards working with other companies as well, right?

00:48:24   - Oh, absolutely.

00:48:25   I think that's number one on the list, right?

00:48:26   which is we have to use a partner.

00:48:30   And like, if you see the benefit of using a partner,

00:48:33   it's different, but there's also this feeling,

00:48:35   and I suspect this happens a lot at Apple,

00:48:37   which is, "Oh, we have to use these guys.

00:48:40   They're slow, they don't think like us.

00:48:42   They keep trying to do shifty stuff that we don't like."

00:48:44   You know, it's just, it feels like a very much

00:48:47   what we would expect from Apple,

00:48:50   which is that they'd rather go it alone if they can,

00:48:52   if they think that it's important.

00:48:54   And this is the thing is I think they've decided

00:48:56   that the financial aspect of what they're doing

00:48:58   is so important that they really ought to own

00:49:00   as much of it as they can.

00:49:02   - Audio Hijack 4 is available now.

00:49:05   - It is.

00:49:06   - I know you've been very excited about this

00:49:08   over the last few months

00:49:09   and you've been up to all kinds of shenanigans.

00:49:11   Do you want to give the upgrade as a little overview

00:49:13   of what's new in Audio Hijack 4?

00:49:15   - Yeah, so Audio Hijack 4, it's an update.

00:49:17   I think the last version of Audio Hijack

00:49:19   was released a long time ago.

00:49:20   It was like 2016, something like that, Audio Hijack 3.

00:49:23   So it's been a while.

00:49:25   This is a paid update.

00:49:26   I don't know exactly what the paid upgrade price is,

00:49:28   but it's an update and it's big.

00:49:33   So there's some stuff that's just about the look and feel.

00:49:37   It looks a little different.

00:49:38   It's got a light mode to go with its dark mode

00:49:40   that it always had.

00:49:41   - It is $29 to upgrade, $64 to purchase out.

00:49:45   - It is my favorite audio utility on the Mac.

00:49:48   It has a new master session list

00:49:50   that's way better than the old one.

00:49:51   The old one was a bunch of squares.

00:49:53   The new one is a compact list that shows you

00:49:56   what is being captured for each item

00:49:59   and shows you the current status of each of those sessions.

00:50:02   And there's a button there to turn them on and off.

00:50:04   So you can like fire off different sessions

00:50:06   from right within that window.

00:50:07   It's a way better and more useful window.

00:50:10   And then there's also a corresponding menu bar item

00:50:13   that shows you all the same things.

00:50:16   And you can, and like most UI elements in Audio Hijack 4,

00:50:20   they're all popovers with a tear off.

00:50:22   So if you want the menu bar to be on screen all the time

00:50:27   as a floating window, you can basically tear it off

00:50:31   and have it just floating on your screen.

00:50:33   Yeah, and you can do that with any item.

00:50:35   Like if there's the live stream one, the broadcast block,

00:50:38   you wanna have that visible all the time,

00:50:40   you can just tear it off and have it visible all the time,

00:50:44   which is pretty great.

00:50:44   - I like the sound of that.

00:50:45   - Whole bunch of stuff like that.

00:50:46   - So say I haven't upgraded yet.

00:50:48   I would have had to upgrade today

00:50:49   and I didn't wanna do it before the show.

00:50:51   I mean, you really give the show its name if you did that,

00:50:54   but it's probably unsafe.

00:50:55   - That is, it seems like a bad upgrade.

00:50:57   - It seems you should test it first.

00:50:59   - Yeah, I want to just make sure

00:51:00   I've got all my stuff set up properly.

00:51:02   'Cause I'm going to tinker with things, right?

00:51:03   So I don't want to tinker with things

00:51:05   and then not set up my recording block

00:51:06   and then just don't record the show.

00:51:08   - That would be the bad upgrade.

00:51:09   - Bad upgrade, this is good upgrade.

00:51:10   - This is the good upgrade.

00:51:12   They have a couple of new plugins,

00:51:14   which if, you know, they have a compressor

00:51:16   and a magic boost, and these are things that like

00:51:17   to level out the audio,

00:51:19   especially if you're live streaming,

00:51:20   If you, you know, one person's louder

00:51:22   and one person's quieter and all that,

00:51:24   you try to level it out.

00:51:25   But one way you can do that is by using a plugin to do that.

00:51:28   And AudioHijack didn't offer that.

00:51:31   So you would have to get an external plugin,

00:51:32   a third party plugin to do compression and all that.

00:51:35   Now, AudioHijack has rolled those in.

00:51:36   So if you're doing a live stream,

00:51:38   you can put the compressor block before the broadcast block

00:51:41   and have it flatten everything out and it sounds better.

00:51:45   And then Magic Boost is like a compressor,

00:51:46   but it only makes it louder.

00:51:48   It makes quiet things loud.

00:51:49   It doesn't make a lot of things quiet.

00:51:51   So you choose how you want to use those,

00:51:53   but those are like having a compressor

00:51:55   and there's a big deal.

00:51:55   It was really a missing piece in version three.

00:51:58   And while you could add it using a third party plugin,

00:52:00   it's kind of nice that it's just part of the app.

00:52:03   - I use something called AU multiband compressor.

00:52:06   What is that?

00:52:07   - Yes, that is an Apple audio unit that comes with logic.

00:52:10   - Okay.

00:52:12   - Yeah, so it's a third party.

00:52:15   I mean, it's Apple, but it's like a non audio hijack

00:52:18   - Audio unit, yeah.

00:52:19   I've swapped in compressor for my third party plugin.

00:52:22   I think I was using Core Presser

00:52:23   and I'm just using the compressor.

00:52:25   - Yeah, we had a lot of trouble for a long time

00:52:28   where I was always quieter than everybody else

00:52:31   before Audio Hijack offered their live streaming.

00:52:33   We used to use NiceCast

00:52:35   and it was just really hard to do it.

00:52:37   And then when Audio Hijack did their thing,

00:52:40   I could use this compressor,

00:52:41   but I still have to tinker with things a little bit,

00:52:43   boost my audio and stuff like that.

00:52:45   So I'm looking forward to trying that out.

00:52:48   And let's see, manual connection mode is another big one

00:52:51   that people requested.

00:52:52   And this is, so the interface AudioHijack has,

00:52:55   it's super clever.

00:52:57   Krista Murgen designed it for AudioHijack 3,

00:52:59   and it's super clever.

00:53:01   It's blocks, little blocks, and you arrange them,

00:53:04   and it kind of goes left to right,

00:53:06   and it's like a flow chart,

00:53:07   and you see the connections between the blocks.

00:53:08   And if you want them to connect differently,

00:53:10   you move the blocks around,

00:53:11   and you just watch as the connections get made,

00:53:13   which is great.

00:53:14   Except if you have very particular connections

00:53:18   you wanna make, sometimes you end up playing

00:53:19   this kind of unpleasant video game

00:53:22   where you have to move things around.

00:53:24   And like, if I move it down here, does that,

00:53:25   nope, that doesn't work.

00:53:26   If I move it over here, oh, I need to move all these things

00:53:28   to the left a little bit in order to get this thing

00:53:30   to the right so that it wires up correctly.

00:53:32   So it's a really great feature that I've used all this time,

00:53:36   but I also accept the fact that sometimes

00:53:38   it can get very complex where you have to move things around

00:53:42   in space, essentially, in order to get them to connect right.

00:53:45   and you're like, I just want these two things to connect.

00:53:48   Why don't they connect?

00:53:49   And the answer is now there is manual connection mode.

00:53:52   So when you go into manual connection mode,

00:53:53   you can literally like click on one block

00:53:56   and then click on another block

00:53:57   and it makes a connection between them.

00:53:59   - This was one of my biggest feature requests personally.

00:54:02   Like, yeah, 'cause now, 'cause I,

00:54:05   my audio hijack windows are a certain physical size

00:54:08   that they don't need to be.

00:54:10   They could be smaller.

00:54:10   Like I could actually make the window smaller,

00:54:12   but then I can't see all of the blocks.

00:54:14   So, but if now with the manual connections,

00:54:17   I can compress everything much physically smaller

00:54:21   because I don't need there to be so much space

00:54:23   between everything.

00:54:23   So they don't accidentally attach to each other.

00:54:26   - Right, exactly.

00:54:27   And you can also set it up in automatic mode

00:54:29   and then flip into manual connection mode

00:54:31   and edit it a little bit.

00:54:32   So you can like do, if you want to,

00:54:34   you can have it do the automatic work first

00:54:36   and then you can fix it and it's all fine.

00:54:39   And then when you flip back out of manual connection mode,

00:54:41   it rewires it.

00:54:42   So don't do that.

00:54:44   But you can keep it in manual connection mode forever

00:54:47   if you want to.

00:54:48   And that's part of it.

00:54:49   And for people who want more control, they can do that.

00:54:52   And then the big thing,

00:54:53   the reason that I got so excited about this

00:54:55   is that Audio Hijack 3 had literally no scripting

00:55:00   or automation support of any kind

00:55:02   to the point where I was desperately trying to automate

00:55:05   some of my podcast recording stuff.

00:55:06   And I was doing these things

00:55:08   where it's like a keyboard maestro macro

00:55:10   that opens Audio Hijack and looks at the window

00:55:13   and tries to detect what's in the window

00:55:15   and what's in the menu bar.

00:55:17   And based on that, is it recording or not?

00:55:19   And can I open by double clicking in the window,

00:55:23   I can open a session

00:55:24   and then I can press the recording button.

00:55:26   It was really bad 'cause it was all based on

00:55:28   looking at what was in the menus

00:55:30   or trying to look at literally the pixels on the screen.

00:55:34   It's not great.

00:55:35   I got it to work sort of, but it was not great.

00:55:37   And then part of the not greatness of it

00:55:39   was that it couldn't easily tell the current status.

00:55:42   Like, is this block actually recording or not?

00:55:45   'Cause just pressing a button,

00:55:48   if it is recording and it presses the button,

00:55:50   it stops the recording

00:55:51   and it wouldn't easily know the status.

00:55:53   It got very complicated.

00:55:55   It was very painful.

00:55:56   Well, version four, they're scripting.

00:55:59   Is the version, is the story.

00:56:01   They're scripting.

00:56:01   They built a JavaScript control system.

00:56:05   There's a JavaScript API.

00:56:06   So, and there's even a scripts window inside audio hijack.

00:56:10   So you can do things like when you start a session,

00:56:12   run this script, or when you stop a session,

00:56:15   run this script.

00:56:15   And they've got some samples.

00:56:16   There's some very clever ones.

00:56:17   Like if you stop a session and there's a recording

00:56:21   that's like less than five seconds long,

00:56:22   throw it in the trash, which I really like,

00:56:25   'cause sometimes I'm testing stuff

00:56:26   and I'll end up with all these little audio files

00:56:28   and you can actually just say, no, no, no,

00:56:30   just throw this away.

00:56:31   I don't need short recording files.

00:56:33   I only want the long ones.

00:56:36   So that's all in there,

00:56:37   but it's not just accessible from within the app,

00:56:40   it's accessible from outside.

00:56:41   And it turns out there are a couple of ways

00:56:43   it's accessible from the outside.

00:56:44   One of them is you can have a JavaScript script

00:56:47   in a text file and tell AudioHijack to open it

00:56:52   and it runs it.

00:56:53   And there's a preference by the way,

00:56:54   there's a security preference you have to turn on

00:56:56   for some of the, for external scripts to run.

00:56:58   So if you're concerned about that,

00:57:00   they made a checkbox that you have to check

00:57:02   in order to turn on this feature.

00:57:03   But that means that like anything like a shell script

00:57:06   or an Apple script or whatever could write out

00:57:08   a JavaScript command and then have it open.

00:57:11   And it's a little circuitous, but it totally works.

00:57:14   And then the other way, shortcuts.

00:57:15   So shortcuts on the Mac debuted right as they were,

00:57:18   I think, starting work on AudioHijack 4.

00:57:21   They knew it was coming.

00:57:22   They, I think, probably had been working

00:57:25   on their JavaScript stuff internally.

00:57:26   And I think JavaScript is probably the way to go.

00:57:28   I mean, a lot of apps these days,

00:57:32   That's the scripting, internal scripting language

00:57:35   that they're adopting.

00:57:36   It'll work on iOS, it'll work on macOS.

00:57:39   Omni uses it for all their scripting now.

00:57:41   I don't love JavaScript, but everybody knows it

00:57:44   and can get around in it and it's fine.

00:57:48   But they added shortcut support

00:57:50   and they have three shortcuts actions right now,

00:57:53   which is not enough, by the way, but it's a start.

00:57:56   And the shortcut actions are start or stop a session,

00:58:00   run a script that's in the script window in Audio Hijack,

00:58:05   or run this JavaScript,

00:58:07   where you can literally just put the JavaScript text

00:58:10   in the shortcut action and say, run this.

00:58:13   And from that, you can do almost anything

00:58:18   because you can turn sessions on and off.

00:58:21   You can turn blocks on and off.

00:58:22   You can get information back.

00:58:23   Is this session running?

00:58:25   What session is running?

00:58:26   You can ask it for information and get information back.

00:58:30   And then you can, once you've got the state information,

00:58:32   you've got a lot of power to do automation.

00:58:34   So that's all great.

00:58:35   - Yeah, I would say one can do anything, you know?

00:58:38   - Well, yes, not you personally.

00:58:40   And this is my complaint about it.

00:58:42   And I think this is the starting point.

00:58:44   And I think that Rogue Amoeba is going to

00:58:47   look at what people do with this

00:58:50   and figure out where they need to go from this.

00:58:52   But there are a lot of one, two, three line JavaScripts

00:58:57   that do things in that you can get information

00:59:01   out of shortcuts, right?

00:59:02   But you have to do them as these little JavaScripts.

00:59:06   And I think that's where they're missing a piece

00:59:09   that they need to add is they need to take a whole bunch

00:59:12   of common things that you might want to get out

00:59:14   of Audio Hijack and make them individual actions.

00:59:19   And even if all that's happening behind the scenes

00:59:22   is that you're firing off things

00:59:23   into the JavaScript interface, not everybody,

00:59:26   First off, not everybody is comfortable with JavaScript

00:59:29   and I'm not even comfortable with JavaScript.

00:59:32   So having them be a shortcut action that says,

00:59:35   tell me what's recording right now.

00:59:37   Like that's a three line JavaScript,

00:59:40   but like wouldn't it be nicer as a shortcuts user

00:59:44   if you didn't have to do that

00:59:46   in order to find out what was running.

00:59:48   And then you build on that,

00:59:50   you have other things that are common use cases

00:59:54   where they can build an action

00:59:55   and roll that action into shortcuts.

00:59:57   I'm pretty sure they're gonna get there,

00:59:59   but right now, other than turning things on and off,

01:00:03   you have to use the JavaScript action.

01:00:06   I'm gonna write, I wrote an article on six colors about this.

01:00:10   I'm gonna post at some point,

01:00:11   some basically like subroutines that you could use

01:00:16   that are things like, tell me what's recording right now.

01:00:21   'Cause like, I think it's really useful.

01:00:23   that gives you back a list of what's recording right now,

01:00:26   but that should be built in.

01:00:28   They should add all of those.

01:00:30   And I'm hopeful that they'll do that in updates as they go.

01:00:33   But the good news about this is that

01:00:36   because they put that run a JavaScript into shortcuts,

01:00:40   if you're willing to get your hands dirty with JavaScript,

01:00:44   you can basically do almost anything you want with the app,

01:00:48   with a few exceptions.

01:00:49   There are some things that are not wired up yet

01:00:50   that I think they're also gonna add,

01:00:52   like Dan Warren and I were talking about how I'd really like to be able to use the automation

01:00:56   to look at my calendar, find out what podcast I'm currently on and update the contents of

01:01:02   the live stream to say the name of the podcast because it changes. And you can't change that

01:01:09   field in scripting right now. So we'll wait for that one.

01:01:12   - You could do that with shortcuts though. You could add in a shortcuts action to do

01:01:17   that. - No, but you can't tell using the JavaScript

01:01:21   API for audio hijack, you can't say change the name of the broadcast block to this. That

01:01:27   part is not accessible right now. So I can do the rest of it.

01:01:30   - Shortcut could read it, but it can't write that information out.

01:01:32   - Exactly. Yeah, that's my point is that that, and a lot of it's there. You can turn most

01:01:37   things on and off. You can flip switches and stuff. You can change the file names, which

01:01:42   is kind of cool, but you can't, like there are a few edge cases like the metadata and

01:01:46   the broadcast block that they didn't. I imagine that is an update feature that they'll add.

01:01:52   But yeah, the big one is the next step they need is to demystify the shortcuts experience

01:01:58   because there are a lot of people who are going to use shortcuts who are not comfortable

01:02:02   in JavaScript.

01:02:03   David Pembroke Me?

01:02:04   Tim Cynova Yeah.

01:02:05   David Pembroke Because there's some—the stuff I would want

01:02:06   to do I think would be pretty simple and I have faith the fact that they've put their

01:02:11   foot in this that this is just the first step of it and they'll add more because—

01:02:16   I figure they must've known, right?

01:02:18   That like, if they did this a little bit,

01:02:20   it was just going to get people like me and you

01:02:23   saying, "Please continue doing more."

01:02:25   Like, I think they're smart enough

01:02:26   for a rogue amoeba that they knew that,

01:02:28   but this is like, adding this in is the first step.

01:02:32   Like, I think it does make the most sense of like,

01:02:34   just see what people do with it and et cetera,

01:02:36   and then they can write their own.

01:02:39   - Right, I think that's gonna be the answer is that,

01:02:41   I think they decided rather than making assumptions,

01:02:43   and also they wanted to ship this thing, right?

01:02:44   So they did the catch all, which is run this JavaScript.

01:02:47   And it's, like I said, it's entirely functional.

01:02:49   You can do a one line, most of my shortcuts do this.

01:02:52   If they send a one line JavaScript to AudioHijack that says,

01:02:56   what's the status of this session?

01:02:59   It's basically, is this on or off?

01:03:01   Or I think it asks like, is it, you know,

01:03:04   I think it's, is it on or off?

01:03:06   And it say it's running or it stopped.

01:03:08   And then my script reacts to that.

01:03:10   It's like, oh, well, now I know what the current status is.

01:03:13   I will react differently based on that. You can also ask it like, is that block turned

01:03:17   on or off or whatever. You have that ability. I think in the long run, they're going to

01:03:22   hear from people like me and they're going to get this feedback of sort of like, how

01:03:26   are people actually automating with this? And because they created that JavaScript thing,

01:03:31   it's like kind of punting on the whole issue. It's like, well, you can do anything you want.

01:03:35   You just have to use JavaScript for now. And then over time, they'll realize, okay, these

01:03:39   are the ones that we're getting the most requests for. How do you do this? How do you do that?

01:03:43   and then hopefully they'll start building out

01:03:44   a little shortcuts library.

01:03:46   I expect most of the shortcuts actions will be things

01:03:50   that are fairly straightforward JavaScripts

01:03:53   that basically like, but I don't want to,

01:03:56   even as somebody who is using that interface,

01:03:58   I don't necessarily want every time I want to do a thing

01:04:01   in AudioHijack via shortcuts,

01:04:02   I have to go find my shortcut that has that script snippet

01:04:07   and copy it out and then go back to the other shortcut

01:04:09   and paste it in because I don't remember it

01:04:14   off the top of my head.

01:04:15   I have to get the terminology exactly right

01:04:17   when I would have preferred to just drag in

01:04:18   a shortcuts action that says, do this.

01:04:21   So we'll see, I think it will progress,

01:04:24   but it's a great start.

01:04:26   And it's led me to all sorts of wild stuff that I can do.

01:04:29   So like I have a generic podcast recording thing

01:04:32   that I use for most of my podcasts,

01:04:33   which is just this, it's called Podcast Lossless.

01:04:37   It records Zoom, it records my microphone,

01:04:39   it saves the files to the desktop.

01:04:41   And I built up a thing with shortcuts and keyboard maestro,

01:04:44   where I have a button on my stream deck,

01:04:46   and by default, when it's not recording,

01:04:49   it's actually the audio hijack logo,

01:04:53   which has got a black background.

01:04:54   And when I press it, it starts recording,

01:04:58   and it turns the button into like an orangey red

01:05:03   active state, like I'm recording now,

01:05:07   and I can look down and know that I'm recording.

01:05:09   And then when I press it again, it toggles it back off.

01:05:13   And that's a fairly simple automation, but it's great

01:05:17   because it's basically given me a one button record

01:05:19   and it knows the state.

01:05:21   So it is not gonna light that button up

01:05:23   unless it knows that it has just turned it on.

01:05:26   Whereas all my old stuff was like, press the button

01:05:30   and did you just turn it off?

01:05:33   Who knows?

01:05:34   I don't know.

01:05:35   Now it knows.

01:05:36   And then I have some more complicated ones

01:05:37   that I detail in my Six Colors post

01:05:39   where I've got kind of a three-way switch

01:05:40   for the incomparable,

01:05:42   'cause we have three states for that

01:05:43   where you go, you're not streaming live.

01:05:46   And then when we turn on the live stream,

01:05:48   we're not ready to start yet.

01:05:49   People who listen to ATP live have heard this too,

01:05:51   where it's like, we're playing like some music

01:05:53   in the background, you can't hear us.

01:05:55   We're just kind of warming up the live stream

01:05:57   while we get our act together.

01:05:59   And then you flip the switch and the music goes away

01:06:03   and you hear our voices and the recording start.

01:06:06   And that's all automated now.

01:06:08   It has been for a little while actually, while I'm in beta.

01:06:12   So I press the button and we go live with music.

01:06:14   I press the button again, same button,

01:06:16   and our voices appear and all the recordings start.

01:06:20   And then when I press that button a third time,

01:06:23   the live stream goes off, our recordings stop,

01:06:25   and we're done.

01:06:27   And the little button updates along the way too.

01:06:29   So lots of possibilities,

01:06:32   big and small for automation with Audio Hijack,

01:06:34   for podcasters or people who do live events

01:06:37   or pretty much anything else.

01:06:40   I mean- - You can record

01:06:41   like audio from video.

01:06:42   I do it all the time with Audio Hijack.

01:06:43   - Yeah, video conferencing.

01:06:46   If you need to record something or play something,

01:06:48   like there's so many different things you could do with this.

01:06:50   So yeah, it's great to see it.

01:06:52   This is a, I know it's not for everybody,

01:06:55   but for me and most of the people I know in the tech world,

01:07:00   We use Audio Hijack all the time, every day,

01:07:05   to do all sorts of complex and simple tasks.

01:07:08   And so having it be connected to shortcuts in any way

01:07:12   is a big deal.

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01:09:18   Sucks!

01:09:19   Jason, I have some updates for you on reader apps, dating apps in the Netherlands.

01:09:26   Oh, my favorite things.

01:09:27   All of our favorite things.

01:09:29   I like reading.

01:09:31   I've been to the Netherlands.

01:09:33   That's all I got.

01:09:34   I guess you liked dating at one point, but that we're done with it.

01:09:37   No.

01:09:38   No?

01:09:39   Okay.

01:09:40   Jason never liked dating.

01:09:41   Kind of like Apple.

01:09:42   And I think Apple likes dating.

01:09:43   No.

01:09:44   They don't want...

01:09:45   Anyway.

01:09:46   update to the rules surrounding the dating apps in the Netherlands.

01:09:50   So please stand for the reading of the rules.

01:09:53   You'd be standing a lot if you were with all of these rules, they keep changing them.

01:09:57   All right, so developers will now no longer be required to submit two separate binaries

01:10:03   to the App Store.

01:10:05   This is previously required that if you wanted to use external payment methods or link people

01:10:10   out, you would need to have a version that just used Apple's in-app purchase and then

01:10:15   the second version. Now you no longer need to do that. So to read from the developer

01:10:20   notes like the update, this change means that developers may include either entitlement

01:10:24   in their existing dating app, but still must limit it to use in the Netherlands storefront

01:10:29   and on devices running iOS or Apple OS. So that's good, right? That's a good start, right?

01:10:35   Because then otherwise you're going to some of these companies are probably even the next

01:10:38   five years have gotten themselves into a situation where they had 20 apps that they were updating

01:10:42   for every country that requires Apple to do this.

01:10:45   - This actually surprises me

01:10:47   because I thought this would be one of the ways

01:10:48   that Apple would just inflict pain on people

01:10:50   who wanted to go outside of their system.

01:10:52   But perhaps they felt that they were gonna get in trouble

01:10:54   for not being part of the spirit of the ruling.

01:10:57   - Jason, I think there's more going on here

01:10:59   that we might get to a little bit later on.

01:11:01   I don't think that this is,

01:11:02   I think this is for nothing other than Apple

01:11:04   have worked something out,

01:11:05   but we'll get to that maybe in a little bit.

01:11:08   They've also softened the language that appears

01:11:10   and the dialogue that users see before making a payment with an external provider. They've

01:11:16   also changed the requirements for how often it needs to be shown. So it previously stated

01:11:22   that this would be required before every transaction. So every time a transaction was going to be

01:11:27   required, even though you're going out and paying something new or paying for an in-app

01:11:31   purchase or whatever, they would show this sheet every single time. And I'll read the

01:11:34   language of it in a minute. But the new rules say each payment flow where the user would

01:11:40   make a purchase until the user taps the continue button on a per device basis.

01:11:44   Now the way I read that is you only see it once. Once you've seen it that one

01:11:50   time, the next time you want to make a purchase, you just make the purchase.

01:11:54   Apple don't show you this screen that makes you agree to the fact that you're

01:12:00   not going to be using their app payment stuff. I don't know, it's until the user

01:12:04   taps the continue button. Well I guess if you could press dismiss. Okay.

01:12:08   Because there you have two options to either continue or to not do it and my

01:12:12   reading of that is if you say I don't want to do it the next time you do it

01:12:16   you'll be shown it again. Oh yeah but once you tap continue on that device

01:12:19   you won't get shown it again on that device that makes sense that makes sense. So I

01:12:24   had to use the Wayback Machine to get this but the the dialogue used to say

01:12:29   this app does not support the app stores private and secure payment system all

01:12:35   All purchases in the app will be managed by the developer.

01:12:39   Your stored App Store payment method and related features

01:12:41   such as subscription management

01:12:42   and refund requests will not be available.

01:12:44   Only purchases through the App Store are secured by Apple.

01:12:47   - This is the, this app may kill you language

01:12:49   that we talked about a while ago.

01:12:50   - Yeah, we had some real problems with this.

01:12:51   I was very upset about this

01:12:53   because it's this kind of inherent,

01:12:56   like this like implied language

01:12:57   that the only secure payments are Apple's payments.

01:13:00   - Right.

01:13:01   - The modal now says,

01:13:02   This app doesn't support the App Store's payment system.

01:13:05   All purchases in this app will be managed by the developer.

01:13:09   You will no longer be transacting with Apple.

01:13:11   Your stored App Store payment method and related features,

01:13:14   such as subscription management and refund requests,

01:13:16   will not be available.

01:13:17   Apple is not responsible for the privacy or security

01:13:20   of transactions made with this developer.

01:13:23   Big thumb up from me.

01:13:24   - Much better.

01:13:25   - Way better.

01:13:26   - It's not this app will kill you.

01:13:28   It's like Apple has nothing to do

01:13:29   with what you're about to do.

01:13:30   Good luck.

01:13:31   - Also, by the way, refunds?

01:13:33   Apple, you don't do those.

01:13:35   That's not a thing, but it's funny to me that it's in there.

01:13:38   There are weird ways in some places.

01:13:41   - You can't request a refund from developers though.

01:13:43   You have to request it from Apple.

01:13:44   So they're saying this is a feature, right?

01:13:46   Which is like, look, when you subscribe with Apple,

01:13:49   you have a subscription management page

01:13:50   with all your subscriptions.

01:13:51   And when you ask for a refund for an app,

01:13:53   you do it through Apple.

01:13:55   Now you're gonna have to go to the developer to do it.

01:13:57   But it's this much better.

01:13:58   - You may actually have more luck at getting that refund,

01:14:01   which is a funny thing, 'cause Apple do not like it.

01:14:02   - Yeah, this is much, much better language.

01:14:04   - Way better, it's much more factual and clear, right?

01:14:07   And it's not suggesting like something wicked

01:14:10   with this way comes, right?

01:14:11   Like it's like it's not doing well.

01:14:13   - This app may not kill you.

01:14:14   - Yeah.

01:14:15   (laughing)

01:14:17   Obviously there have been no changes to the 27% fee.

01:14:21   So Apple is gonna be enforcing on developers

01:14:24   and the items that use this.

01:14:26   There's no changes on how Apple requires reporting

01:14:29   or any changes to the audit rights

01:14:31   that Apple has on the developer,

01:14:33   all of that I still have a big problem with.

01:14:35   And to round out this part with the Netherlands,

01:14:39   currently Apple's fines for not complying with the ruling

01:14:42   given by the Dutch regulators have passed 50 million Euro

01:14:46   because they've been charging them 5 million a week.

01:14:49   As of recording, 'cause usually there's been,

01:14:52   like these fines get added every Monday,

01:14:55   it happens sometime on Monday or Tuesday.

01:14:58   they listen to upgrade and then they do it.

01:15:00   - And then they do it, like we remind them.

01:15:02   'Cause it actually genuinely happens not too long

01:15:06   after we finish recording, which is a funny time

01:15:08   for the Netherlands really, 'cause it's, anyway,

01:15:10   like it's past the end of the work day.

01:15:13   But a couple of days ago, the regulator gave a comment

01:15:16   to TechCrunch saying that they will evaluate this proposal

01:15:19   from Apple to see if it meets their rules.

01:15:22   - Ooh.

01:15:23   - I actually am not even sure if a lot of this is

01:15:26   to meet the rules. But again, we'll get to that in a bit because there's also, Apple's

01:15:31   very busy, they have finally released the guidance around the external linking for reader

01:15:37   apps that was agreed as part of a deal with the Japan Fair Trade Commission back in September

01:15:42   2021. I cannot believe it was that long ago, six months ago. So this is all intended to

01:15:49   be just for managing or creating accounts, right, with reader apps. So these are your

01:15:55   Kindles, your Netflixes, that kind of thing.

01:15:59   Some of the stuff that they showed, of course, there was a modal dialogue when you click

01:16:02   one of these links, which says you're about to leave the app and go to an external website.

01:16:07   You will no longer be transacting with Apple.

01:16:09   And then it's basically the same stuff as before about subscription management, refund

01:16:13   requests, et cetera, et cetera.

01:16:16   I got some helpful -- luckily, The Verge went through a lot of this stuff and I was able

01:16:23   to crib from them.

01:16:24   thank you to Mitchell Clark at The Verge,

01:16:25   Apple have a list of requirements

01:16:27   that apply to the link itself that they give,

01:16:30   that someone will click.

01:16:31   The link must open in a browser,

01:16:33   it cannot open in an in-app web view.

01:16:36   - Yep.

01:16:37   - There is no additional data or parameters,

01:16:40   like tracking stuff that can be passed to the website,

01:16:43   and your app cannot contain text

01:16:45   explaining how much things on your website will cost,

01:16:48   which I guess means you can charge whatever you want, right?

01:16:52   So it can be cheaper on the website,

01:16:54   but you just can't say it.

01:16:56   - You can't say it.

01:16:57   I think this is, so initial thought for me was,

01:17:01   wait a second, one link seems like a waste

01:17:06   and no additional data or parameters seems like a waste.

01:17:10   But here's the thing, the way this will functionally work

01:17:14   is that it will go to a page that is the page

01:17:17   that you go to when you come from the app.

01:17:20   The first thing it's gonna do is have you log in

01:17:23   and then it's gonna display whatever is relevant.

01:17:27   - But you can also create, this wouldn't just be login.

01:17:29   - Or create, logging in or creating.

01:17:31   The point is, what you're going to do

01:17:34   is end up in a state, at least potentially,

01:17:38   where Safari on your device is logged in on that page.

01:17:43   So this is less onerous, I think,

01:17:49   than I originally thought,

01:17:51   because the smart services will,

01:17:56   once you're logged into that page,

01:17:57   you can display whatever you anticipate

01:17:59   people coming from the app will see.

01:18:01   So in the end, you're probably gonna get a tap here,

01:18:05   like I'm in the Kindle app and I'm logged in

01:18:07   and I tap here and it'll display my purchases

01:18:10   or it'll display things I wanna buy.

01:18:14   What it doesn't get you is I'm looking at a particular book

01:18:17   and I want to buy it and then I tap

01:18:20   and I go to that book page on Amazon

01:18:21   because that's not allowed.

01:18:22   But you can tap and go and get your account page

01:18:27   and go from there.

01:18:29   So it's not terrible because it's not like it's opening,

01:18:34   not knowing anything of who you are

01:18:35   to the homepage of the website,

01:18:37   but it's also not allowing the passing of data

01:18:40   for things like, so you want to buy this book,

01:18:44   tap here to go to Amazon's page for this book

01:18:47   where you can buy it.

01:18:48   It's not, that part is not allowed.

01:18:50   - Well, here's the thing.

01:18:52   Remember that one link thing?

01:18:53   Like as you mentioned the one link.

01:18:55   There is no reference to one link

01:18:58   in this entire documentation from Apple.

01:19:01   Now, I think there's a reason for this.

01:19:05   They actually explicitly say you can provide multiple links

01:19:09   for different use cases or languages.

01:19:11   - Okay.

01:19:12   - I think what they are, we're trying to get across

01:19:16   And what they're still trying to get across is,

01:19:19   is that there's only really the use cases

01:19:21   that they are permitting,

01:19:22   which is create a new account, manage that account.

01:19:26   And you have to provide every link to them to review.

01:19:30   And it has to meet, like in every place you're putting it,

01:19:35   and they will also review where it's going to.

01:19:38   And then Apple have, they haven't,

01:19:40   again, they don't really seem to have stated

01:19:43   too much about what's required on the web pages,

01:19:45   but I'm sure that's like a,

01:19:46   we'll have that conversation with you, you know?

01:19:48   Like I imagine there'll be a bit of two and throw.

01:19:52   'Cause there's not gonna be a lot of companies

01:19:53   that will be able to take advantage of this, right?

01:19:57   It really is gonna be mostly the companies you would expect.

01:20:01   There aren't gonna be a lot of small companies, I think,

01:20:03   that are gonna be able to really use this

01:20:05   to any great effect.

01:20:06   - No, there aren't a lot of small companies

01:20:08   making reader apps, to be clear.

01:20:09   - Exactly.

01:20:10   But the original announcement stated one link.

01:20:14   the phrase one link is not mentioned anywhere

01:20:17   in this documentation.

01:20:18   - Obviously they got feedback that there are lots of,

01:20:21   but what about this, but what about this?

01:20:22   We've got two different kinds of things that happen

01:20:24   and we have different languages and we can't pass data,

01:20:27   so how do we do that?

01:20:28   And so Apple seems to have said,

01:20:30   well, you can support multiple links

01:20:32   as long as there are four different use cases

01:20:35   or languages, as you said,

01:20:37   and then we have to approve them.

01:20:39   What it doesn't mean is, again, I can't tap on a book

01:20:43   can go to that book's page on Amazon,

01:20:44   because that is, they're not gonna approve a link

01:20:47   for every single book.

01:20:49   And really what they're saying there is

01:20:51   that is passing data or parameters.

01:20:55   And that's not allowed.

01:20:56   It has to be a generic request.

01:20:58   It can be a generic request for,

01:21:00   this is for my account options,

01:21:01   or this is my sign-in,

01:21:03   or this is I have a problem,

01:21:05   or whatever the use cases are,

01:21:07   but not for like individual transaction items.

01:21:11   They're not gonna let you do that.

01:21:12   which is what, you know, that's what Amazon would prefer, right, is the Kindle app could

01:21:16   show you, you could search for books in the Kindle app and find a book you want and tap

01:21:21   and it would open Safari to that page with a big fat Buy Now button and you can't do

01:21:26   that in this scenario.

01:21:28   So remember at the moment both the Dutch dating app thing and the reader app thing, the reader

01:21:35   app thing is worldwide even though it was just a decision with the Japan Fair Trade

01:21:38   Commission they applied it worldwide. I'm actually not sure why. I guess this is just

01:21:42   to appease the large companies that they're dealing with here and for whatever reason

01:21:47   Apple doesn't care about Match.com. It's just like you would just do this in the Netherlands

01:21:52   nowhere else. Remember this is an entitlement that they have to apply for and then you get

01:21:57   to do certain things and entitlements is a little bit above my pay grade but it's like

01:22:01   you are granted the ability to put something in your application that ties into a private

01:22:07   API that other people are not allowed to use.

01:22:10   This is the same with CarPlay, this is how CarPlay works.

01:22:12   But there was a note in the documentation that says, "Apple is developing a new external

01:22:17   link account API that will provide the in-app modal sheet.

01:22:21   Once this new API becomes available in a public release of iOS and iPadOS, you will have 30

01:22:26   days to adopt it with the next update of your app.

01:22:29   In the meantime, you will need to build this modal sheet by following exactly the design

01:22:32   specifications provided below."

01:22:34   - So I have a couple of questions about this.

01:22:37   Why are they not just waiting until this is available?

01:22:41   Right, because we've already waited six months.

01:22:42   Like what, you know, why not?

01:22:45   Why are we doing this like impromptu,

01:22:48   sorry, just like intermediate step?

01:22:51   - Fines, fines I think is the answer, right?

01:22:54   - Well, but this is separate to the Dutch things.

01:22:56   - To the Dutch dating, but I think this is

01:22:58   so that Apple can say, look, you can do it now.

01:23:01   We're not holding anyone back.

01:23:03   It is Apple demonstrating something

01:23:05   that they have not demonstrated up to now in some ways,

01:23:08   which is them saying, look, okay,

01:23:10   but it's gonna take time, we have to do a whole thing,

01:23:11   we have to build an API.

01:23:13   And now what they're saying is, look, we're building an API,

01:23:16   but don't say we're dragging our feet.

01:23:19   If you wanna replicate what our guidelines today, go ahead.

01:23:23   Replicate our guidelines today without the API,

01:23:26   and you could do it and we'll let you do it.

01:23:28   But we're also gonna work on a thing

01:23:30   that's a lot easier to implement.

01:23:32   but if you wanna replicate it in the meantime, go ahead.

01:23:34   We're not standing in your way.

01:23:36   And I think that that is a posturing thing,

01:23:38   not necessarily about Dutch dating apps,

01:23:39   but it is a posturing thing to regulators to say,

01:23:42   we're not dragging our feet here.

01:23:45   You can do this today,

01:23:47   but you're gonna have to do the work.

01:23:50   We're doing the work for you, that's not ready yet.

01:23:53   You can do this today.

01:23:55   And I think that's clever in some ways

01:23:58   'cause it's Apple basically saying, don't blame us.

01:24:02   And also Apple knowing it's unlikely that the spirit of,

01:24:08   I don't know about the spirit.

01:24:12   When a judge says, like in the Dutch dating case,

01:24:16   do this Apple, what they're saying is Apple be permissive.

01:24:20   And what they're not saying is Apple,

01:24:23   you will immediately furnish the thing you like to furnish,

01:24:28   which is a bunch of developer APIs.

01:24:31   That's not what they're saying.

01:24:32   They're saying be permissive.

01:24:34   And this is Apple saying, we are permissive now.

01:24:36   You can do this, here are the rules, done.

01:24:39   We worked on, all that we really need to do

01:24:41   is give you the rule book.

01:24:42   We also are gonna do an API for developers

01:24:45   that's gonna be good, but we're not standing in your way.

01:24:48   And I think that that's,

01:24:49   I think they're sending a message, right?

01:24:51   Which is, you know, we're, anyone who wants to do this now,

01:24:55   we are gonna let you do it now.

01:24:56   We're not gonna let our implementation of the API

01:25:00   be the gating factor.

01:25:02   And so don't blame us and say, we're dragging our feet,

01:25:06   even though they were dragging their feet.

01:25:08   - Yes.

01:25:09   - So it gets them out of the way of that.

01:25:11   - Yeah, I, you know.

01:25:13   - And they're saying within 30 days

01:25:15   after we release the API,

01:25:16   you gotta rip out all the work you did

01:25:18   and then use our API anyway.

01:25:19   But in the meantime, you can do this.

01:25:21   But like that feels very much like a message to the courts,

01:25:25   which is, we heard you, you don't like us waiting

01:25:28   for the API.

01:25:29   - This is so funny to me, right?

01:25:30   Where it's like, they came up to this deal six months ago,

01:25:33   and now they've released the entitlement ability,

01:25:36   but as soon as they come up with this API,

01:25:37   they will require everyone to do it within 30 days.

01:25:40   - Yes, rip it right out.

01:25:41   - And I just find that so funny, right?

01:25:43   Like, we'll take as long as we want, but.

01:25:45   - But again, it's the letter in the spirit, right?

01:25:48   It's them saying, oh, we're not standing in your way.

01:25:51   If you do a bunch of extra work,

01:25:53   and then rip it out later, you can do it right now.

01:25:55   But I think that is, you know,

01:25:58   I think that a lot of courts might look at that,

01:26:01   or regulators and look at that and say, okay, fair enough.

01:26:04   Like, because the argument here is like,

01:26:06   should Apple have to furnish Amazon

01:26:10   with all the code to do this?

01:26:13   Like, if Apple didn't wanna ever do an API for this

01:26:15   and posted the guidelines,

01:26:17   would that be contrary to the spirit

01:26:19   of what's being asked for here?

01:26:20   I would say it wouldn't be.

01:26:22   It's not, Apple doing an API for it

01:26:24   is really not part of the regulation.

01:26:26   The regulators aren't saying you must provide an API.

01:26:29   They're saying you must allow people to do this.

01:26:32   And so Apple is splitting the difference a little bit,

01:26:35   but it is saying, look,

01:26:36   we're not standing in the way of doing it now.

01:26:37   Here are our rules, we will agree to this,

01:26:40   but we will do an API because that's the best way forward.

01:26:44   And that will ultimately allow Apple to completely control it

01:26:47   and not have to patrol what these, you know,

01:26:50   API mirroring things are in the meantime,

01:26:55   but it's just, I think it's a fascinating,

01:26:58   a little bit of strategy where it sort of is removing

01:27:00   the waiting time for the API from the equation

01:27:03   in terms of an impatient government or judge

01:27:07   looking at Apple saying, come on now, like, come on,

01:27:09   you're just, you know, you're just delaying here.

01:27:12   You're just stalling.

01:27:13   They're like, no, no, no, people who wanna do it now

01:27:15   can put in the work and do it now.

01:27:16   We'll be here later.

01:27:17   - Yeah, when I read this, I was like,

01:27:19   I wonder if this is part of a few things, you know,

01:27:23   like to different APIs for new systems here.

01:27:28   - I like this approach.

01:27:33   I mean, within the context of Apple's dealing

01:27:36   with these regulations, I like to see Apple doing this

01:27:39   because I do think it's a smart move for them to say,

01:27:42   'cause okay, first off,

01:27:43   Apple wants to build an API for everything

01:27:46   and they wanna have a whole system

01:27:47   and they wanna have it be measured and careful

01:27:49   and consider it and put it out for developers and say,

01:27:52   "Here's the right way to do things."

01:27:54   And it turns out the courts just want Apple to move.

01:27:57   So how do you reconcile those two things?

01:28:02   This is the answer,

01:28:03   which is Apple can do rule book real fast,

01:28:06   not like not fast in real world terms, but in Apple terms,

01:28:09   they can come up with a rule book a lot faster

01:28:12   than they can roll out an API

01:28:13   and a shipping version of the OS.

01:28:16   So this is their way of dealing with that,

01:28:19   is build it today if you want, we'll have an API later.

01:28:24   When we do the API, you gotta adopt it, we're done.

01:28:26   - But overall, I would say the language

01:28:29   that they've landed on, vastly better

01:28:33   than where they were before.

01:28:34   - Oh yeah, yeah, they're not,

01:28:36   and again, I wonder, like you were saying,

01:28:38   I wonder what happened behind the scenes here, right?

01:28:41   I wonder if somebody somewhere on the outside,

01:28:44   I doubt it was on the inside.

01:28:46   On the outside, it was like,

01:28:47   you gotta stop with the scare language.

01:28:50   That's, we're not happy with you trying to dissuade users.

01:28:55   It needs to be neutral language.

01:28:57   Somebody somewhere said that.

01:28:58   - I assume they just got a lot of pushback, you know,

01:29:00   like from people in the media, like me and you,

01:29:03   and many other outlets, and also the developers

01:29:06   that they're writing this stuff for.

01:29:08   It's just like, this is too much.

01:29:09   You've gone too hard, like way too hard.

01:29:11   You gotta pull it back a little bit, you know?

01:29:13   - Yeah, well maybe, but my guess is that maybe-

01:29:15   - Just dripping with spite, you know?

01:29:17   - Maybe there's somebody in one of these areas

01:29:21   where Apple is negotiating with them about like,

01:29:23   is this enough, is this enough, said,

01:29:26   we want neutral language.

01:29:28   This is not neutral.

01:29:29   And maybe they paste it in a bunch of links

01:29:31   to like the Verge and other articles saying,

01:29:34   see, everybody agrees, you're really,

01:29:36   this is, you're trying to scare people.

01:29:38   And that's not what we are asking for.

01:29:40   We are asking for you to have neutral language.

01:29:43   can state the facts about your subscription thing and your refunds. You can state the

01:29:47   facts, but to imply everything but you is dangerous is not neutral. So I just, I mean,

01:29:57   maybe I'm being cynical here and they decided themselves that this was better language,

01:30:00   but I don't think so. I think they got, I suspect that somebody told them, you can't

01:30:05   do this. You must be more neutral than this, but the net result is the same, which is the

01:30:10   language is better. They're not telling you the app is going to kill you. They're just

01:30:12   saying you're leaving Apple.

01:30:14   And that's what it should be.

01:30:16   And again, I applaud the idea that they're gonna make

01:30:18   the behavior available faster

01:30:22   and not make everybody wait for the API.

01:30:25   Because if I was a judge on one of these cases

01:30:28   and Apple said, well, okay,

01:30:30   we'll put it in our internal process.

01:30:32   And in September it'll be available for people.

01:30:35   I would be like, nuh-uh, I told you now,

01:30:39   and I'm willing to be reasonable here,

01:30:40   but I'm not gonna give you six, nine months, a year

01:30:44   to drag your feet on this.

01:30:46   And so their new policy here seems to be

01:30:49   better in that regard too.

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01:32:47   Relay FM.

01:32:48   Let's finish out today's episode with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:32:54   Got a couple of studio display related questions just thought would be a nice bookend for today's

01:32:59   episode.

01:33:00   asked this one to me, Jason, it says, "Myke, given your recent escapades of Apple support

01:33:05   with your screen technology technicalities of AppleCare Plus," this is my very scratched

01:33:11   and I believe cracked iPhone, which Apple said is not cracked and they won't replace

01:33:15   it even though I want to pay them with my AppleCare Plus. They said, "Did you spend

01:33:20   the extra on AppleCare Plus for your studio display?" And I will say, "No, Sekou, I didn't

01:33:24   because I have pledged to myself that I'm never getting AppleCare again."

01:33:27   - Interesting.

01:33:28   - Not gonna do it anymore.

01:33:30   - I never, Myke, you know, I never buy AppleCare.

01:33:33   - Yep.

01:33:34   - I bought it on the studio display.

01:33:35   - Fair enough.

01:33:37   - I decided that if there was ever an Apple purchase

01:33:39   where I was like, I don't know,

01:33:41   I kind of want them to have a lot of time there.

01:33:45   I've changed, I used to decline on everything,

01:33:47   extended warranties and all of that.

01:33:49   And I found that I'm now targeting certain technologies

01:33:54   and product types where I'm like,

01:33:56   I kind of don't trust this product.

01:33:59   I'm gonna put a little more in and I never do it,

01:34:03   but I did it for the studio this morning.

01:34:06   - I've just decided I'm done with it.

01:34:07   I've never used AppleCare and I've got it on every iPhone

01:34:10   for years and years and years and on all my devices.

01:34:13   And the one time I wanted to get a replacement

01:34:16   for my very scratch screen, they told me it's not counted,

01:34:19   even though I think it should be.

01:34:21   So I'm done, I'm done.

01:34:22   I'm done with it and I'm not gonna get it anymore.

01:34:25   and I'm just going to save the money

01:34:27   instead of paying for their Apple Care,

01:34:29   and I'll just deal with it myself

01:34:32   with getting the repairs done because I'm fed up with it.

01:34:35   -I also had that spider that one time,

01:34:36   and so I'm really kind of concerned about my displays now.

01:34:39   I'd like this display to last a long time.

01:34:41   Of course, the Apple Care+ doesn't last a long time,

01:34:43   but I did do it for that.

01:34:45   I also bought an extended warranty

01:34:48   in another product this week,

01:34:50   but I'll talk about that at another time.

01:34:52   Maybe it'll be an upgrade plus segment.

01:34:54   I don't know. - Ooh, interesting.

01:34:56   Myke asks, "I never worried about a monitor

01:34:59   becoming obsolete before its end of life.

01:35:01   With the studio display having an A13 chip,

01:35:04   do you think that could be a valid concern?"

01:35:07   - I don't. - Okay.

01:35:08   - It's just, in the end, it is designed to be a dumb display.

01:35:13   I know it's smart, but it's actually designed to be dumb

01:35:15   and transparent, and so I don't think it's gonna be an issue.

01:35:17   I think you'll be able to plug...

01:35:22   I mean, will software updates stop coming for it?

01:35:24   Sure, but like a dumb display doesn't get updated either.

01:35:29   - Yeah. - Right?

01:35:30   It either works or it doesn't.

01:35:31   - There'll be some features eventually

01:35:33   that you won't be able to use,

01:35:35   but that you just won't do those, use those features.

01:35:37   Like there'll be new features, like any product, right?

01:35:39   - Yeah, so I think it's not gonna be a big deal.

01:35:42   I think you'll be able to use this for a long time

01:35:44   and it will be fine.

01:35:46   I think people will be using these displays.

01:35:46   - It is a good question though, right?

01:35:48   'Cause it is different to imagine

01:35:49   like a computer inside the monitor.

01:35:52   Like that is a different, is a very different thing.

01:35:55   - Yeah, it's just, I mean, the difference though

01:35:57   is that in the end it's all, what's really happening

01:36:00   is it's meant to be opaque and it's not like,

01:36:03   oh boy, we're gonna update the software to,

01:36:05   and as people have pointed out,

01:36:06   Apple has had firmware updates for its monitors before.

01:36:10   Eventually the display reaches the end of its updating life,

01:36:14   but it's still just a display.

01:36:15   I mean, of all the devices I have,

01:36:17   I still have a bunch of ancient displays around me

01:36:20   in this office that all work fine with,

01:36:23   even with modern hardware,

01:36:25   if you can get the adapters right.

01:36:26   And so like, I've got a flat screen

01:36:28   that was my first flat screen display at work.

01:36:31   Like, I don't even know how long ago that was,

01:36:35   a whole long time ago.

01:36:37   And I'm looking at it right now

01:36:38   and it's plugged into like a Raspberry Pi

01:36:40   and it works fine and it'll plug into a laptop.

01:36:43   It's not retina and it's very small, but it works.

01:36:45   So I'm not concerned about it at all.

01:36:48   - And Brian asks, I just realized actually,

01:36:53   is firmware because it's in the middle

01:36:56   of software and hardware?

01:36:59   Is that why it's called that?

01:37:00   - Yeah, I think the idea with firmware is that, yeah,

01:37:04   it's software for hardware, so it's firm where

01:37:08   it's not quite as loosey goosey as software.

01:37:11   Yeah.

01:37:14   - I find that like a funny, you know,

01:37:16   you just never really think about the etymology,

01:37:18   like the words, you know?

01:37:19   - Right, where it came from, yeah.

01:37:20   I know that's absolutely what it is.

01:37:21   It's somewhere between soft and hard, it's firm.

01:37:23   - That is hilarious.

01:37:25   - Tofu wear.

01:37:25   - Consistency.

01:37:29   Brian asks, do other members of your family

01:37:33   have user profiles on your Macs?

01:37:36   Or do you have a profile on the Macs

01:37:38   of the others own in your family?

01:37:40   - No.

01:37:41   - No, I don't, no, I don't.

01:37:43   - No. - I don't have this either.

01:37:45   - Actually, this is not entirely true.

01:37:47   When my kids had laptops and they were younger,

01:37:51   they had no admin privileges.

01:37:55   And so I had an account.

01:37:56   - Okay. - And if there were certain

01:37:57   things that needed to happen, - I don't think that counts,

01:37:59   but I know what you're saying. - They came and brought them

01:38:00   to me and said, "Daddy, you need to put in your password now

01:38:03   to approve this app that I downloaded."

01:38:05   And I'd be like, "Whatever you downloading."

01:38:06   But that was part of it.

01:38:08   But my son just got a MacBook Pro to take to college.

01:38:11   And I set it up with him having a user

01:38:15   and I don't have a user on that computer and it's fine.

01:38:18   - That would be complicated

01:38:19   if you still had all the admin privileges on that laptop

01:38:24   that he's taking out of college.

01:38:25   That would be difficult for him at some point.

01:38:28   - I only had profiles on, yeah,

01:38:29   to do parental control kind of stuff

01:38:30   and I don't do that anymore, so that's it.

01:38:32   - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:38:33   - Yeah, 'cause I guess it is a kind of like,

01:38:36   that regard is like a parental control or a purchasing thing,

01:38:40   like in an Apple family app store thing.

01:38:43   Yeah, no, I've never done this and wouldn't imagine it.

01:38:47   I think, at least with me and Adina,

01:38:51   we have our own computers.

01:38:52   We just want to use our own computers, right?

01:38:55   And if for any reason one of us needed to use

01:38:58   each other's computers, it's not to the level

01:39:00   that we need our own user on it.

01:39:02   You know what I mean?

01:39:03   It's like, I'm just going to use this

01:39:05   to search something real quick.

01:39:06   I don't now need my own login to this computer.

01:39:09   Don't begrudge other people for doing it.

01:39:11   Like there is, you know,

01:39:12   I've spoken about the fact that at some point in the future,

01:39:15   this iMac will become the home computer,

01:39:18   like the home, like just live somewhere in the home.

01:39:21   We might then have our own users on it, you know?

01:39:25   - But we don't have any devices that we--

01:39:26   - That are shared computers.

01:39:29   - Yeah.

01:39:30   - Yeah, so I think that's, I don't have any like that,

01:39:32   but this one would at some point become that, so.

01:39:36   - But you're right, I wouldn't mind if we positioned

01:39:38   and iMac somewhere in the house to have it be.

01:39:41   In fact, the nice thing about Touch ID, right,

01:39:43   is you can just log in with your Touch ID and all of that

01:39:45   and switch to your profile.

01:39:47   But no, we don't have any of that.

01:39:48   - That even does it. - All laptops.

01:39:49   - If someone's already signed in

01:39:51   and they put their finger on the Touch ID,

01:39:53   it switches, doesn't it? - It switches to them, yeah.

01:39:54   - That's so cool.

01:39:55   That's such a cool feature.

01:39:57   If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer

01:39:59   on a future episode of Upgrade,

01:40:01   you can send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade

01:40:03   or use question mark #AskUpgrade

01:40:05   in the Relay FM members Discord, which you get access to.

01:40:08   if you sign up for Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com

01:40:12   and you can sign up at $5 a month or $50 a year

01:40:16   and you will get longer ad-free episodes of Upgrade

01:40:20   every single week.

01:40:23   So you get more Upgrade, no ads.

01:40:25   It's a pretty great deal, right?

01:40:26   - Pretty good, pretty good. - Pretty great deal.

01:40:28   - You can hear us talk about a TV show

01:40:30   that Myke and I both think is amazingly good.

01:40:33   And I'm gonna give you an appliance update too.

01:40:35   - If you enjoy this show, you will enjoy Upgrade Plus

01:40:38   and you could also be helping support the show too, which we value greatly.

01:40:42   Thank you to Fitbaud and Bombas and DoorDash for their support of this episode as well.

01:40:48   We greatly appreciate that.

01:40:49   But most of all, as always, thank you for listening and we'll be back next week.

01:40:54   Who knows if WWDC will be announced by then?

01:40:58   Who knows?

01:40:59   Seems like an impossibility at this point, but who knows?

01:41:02   Maybe they'll just give us seven days notice this time.

01:41:05   [laughter]

01:41:07   Hey, it's next week!

01:41:09   It is late May. The Apple community is whipped into a frenzy.

01:41:12   When will WWDC be announced?

01:41:15   People will take into the streets with placards that say "The end is nigh."

01:41:19   Mm-hmm.

01:41:21   We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye to your business now.

01:41:23   Goodbye, my Curly.

01:41:25   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:41:29   [ Music ]