399: The Mysteries of Thunderbolt


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   from relay FM this is upgrade episode 399 today's show is brought to you by

00:00:13   squarespace door dash and member four my name is

00:00:17   mike hurley and i'm joined by jason snowe hi jason

00:00:20   hi mike hurley welcome back to the upgrade program i'm

00:00:23   very happy to be here and i come with me bearing

00:00:26   a #SnailTalk question that comes from Peter who says,

00:00:29   "Jason, you did your cord cutting.

00:00:31   When you went through that and you cut all the cords,

00:00:35   did you add a cord, an ethernet cable to your Apple TV box?

00:00:38   Or are you just using your home wifi?"

00:00:40   - I just want to clarify,

00:00:41   when people talk about cord cutting, it's a metaphor,

00:00:43   'cause you don't actually cut the cord because-

00:00:44   - Yeah, I'm sure you do.

00:00:45   - There's still a, well, I did cut the cable, TV cable,

00:00:50   but there is now a fiber optic cable running into my house.

00:00:53   It's not like I actually cut the cord.

00:00:56   It's a metaphor.

00:00:57   And my Apple TV boxes have been wired with ethernet

00:01:01   for a long time now because it's more reliable.

00:01:04   And if I've got any device that can be wired with ethernet,

00:01:07   I wire it with ethernet

00:01:08   'cause it's more reliable than wifi and faster.

00:01:11   And so, yes, my Apple TV has already had ethernet.

00:01:15   I didn't add it, it already had it.

00:01:17   And that is for reliability from the outside

00:01:20   and also for speed on the inside

00:01:22   'cause I do have a Plex server.

00:01:23   So it is gonna be,

00:01:25   the Plex stuff can come down faster than stuff

00:01:28   from the internet.

00:01:28   So yeah, that's why.

00:01:30   - I've never even thought about plugging an Apple TV

00:01:33   into ethernet.

00:01:34   Like it's just, honestly, I forgot that it even

00:01:36   had the port.

00:01:37   - Oh yeah.

00:01:38   - But it's cool that it does.

00:01:39   - I mean, it's, it's, it is, I mean, that's the truth

00:01:42   is that wired is going to be more reliable than wifi.

00:01:45   Even if you have reliable wifi, it's going to be a little

00:01:47   bit faster and it's going to be, you know, weird things

00:01:49   happen with wifi, weird things can happen with ethernet too,

00:01:52   but it's much less common.

00:01:53   And again, I've got a whole ethernet like connectivity thing

00:01:58   that like there's so much ethernet in my,

00:02:01   in where the Apple TV is that why would I not plug it in?

00:02:05   - If you would like to send in a question for us to open

00:02:07   an episode of Upgrade with,

00:02:08   just send out a tweet with the hashtag SnellTalk,

00:02:10   or use question mark SnellTalk

00:02:11   in the Relay FM members discord.

00:02:13   Saddle up Jason Snell,

00:02:15   'cause we're gonna mosey on down for the rumor roundup.

00:02:17   And I got a big one for you today, my friend.

00:02:20   We've got like a lot of categories we're gonna get through

00:02:22   because it's been a busy couple of weeks.

00:02:24   I'm going to start with a Mac Mini.

00:02:26   9to5Mac is reporting that Apple is working on an update to the Mac Mini which will feature

00:02:31   options for an M2 and M2 Pro chip.

00:02:33   The M2 will still feature 8 CPU cores like the M1 but it will be bumped up to 10 GPU

00:02:40   cores.

00:02:41   The M2 Pro will have a 12 core CPU and I'm assuming a 10 core GPU.

00:02:47   reading from 9to5Mac, "According to 9to5Mac's sources, Apple have plans to introduce high-end

00:02:53   versions of the current Mac Mini with the M1 Pro and M1 Mac's chips, but they were

00:02:58   probably scrapped to make way for the Mac Studio."

00:03:02   And Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that this Mac Mini is set for 2023 and it will feature the

00:03:08   same design that we have currently, which I guess kind of makes sense given the way

00:03:12   the Mac Studio looks.

00:03:14   - Yeah, yeah.

00:03:15   I think what's interesting here is that we're starting

00:03:18   to talk about what the M2 generation is gonna look like.

00:03:21   - Yep, got more of that coming up.

00:03:22   - Yeah, and there is a question of like, well,

00:03:24   are they gonna do a higher end Mac mini

00:03:27   since they have the Mac studio?

00:03:28   But a lot of people have written about,

00:03:30   Dan Morin did it in "Six Colors" last week,

00:03:32   like there's a hole in the Mac desktop space

00:03:37   between an M1 in a bunch of computers

00:03:41   and the M1 Macs in the studio.

00:03:43   and that's the base.

00:03:45   And it's in that kind of like pro level.

00:03:46   Why isn't there a pro M whatever pro chip desktop?

00:03:51   And the Mac Mini is a logical place for it.

00:03:54   I think it might be in the iMac too,

00:03:56   but like the Mac Mini is a logical place for it.

00:03:58   And it sounds like this is just gonna be a next generation.

00:04:01   Maybe they set it aside as Ming-Chi Kuo suggests,

00:04:05   that maybe they set it aside for the Mac studio

00:04:07   and thought, let's get this thing out the door this year.

00:04:09   Probably these computers are not gonna be updated

00:04:12   every year, right?

00:04:14   So maybe it's like, okay,

00:04:14   we're gonna do the studio this year.

00:04:16   We'll see, we'll see, maybe they will.

00:04:19   - Well, I mean, saying that the M1 Mac Mini,

00:04:22   as Ming-Chi Kuo is saying, except for 2023,

00:04:24   that would be like way over like an 18 month span at least,

00:04:29   nearly two years since the Mac Mini received

00:04:31   any kind of update.

00:04:32   - You got the M1 Mac Mini and then in '23,

00:04:34   they come back in early '23, let's say,

00:04:36   with the M2 with an option for an M2 Pro.

00:04:40   And then you, and that,

00:04:42   I think that's what Apple wants to do, right?

00:04:44   I think we've seen,

00:04:45   we've seen generation one of Apple Silicon now more or less.

00:04:51   And, you know, it is their first attempt

00:04:54   and they've got a lot to do.

00:04:55   So I think it's not surprising that maybe

00:04:58   we're gonna see a more full,

00:05:00   well-rounded set of products when they get to M2.

00:05:05   Because yeah, the M2 Pro is a really great example of like,

00:05:08   there's just no desktops with M2 Pro.

00:05:10   Why is that?

00:05:11   And I think it's because they revised a bunch

00:05:14   of their lower end desktops for the M1

00:05:15   and then put them aside 'cause they had other stuff to do

00:05:18   and they haven't gotten back to it yet.

00:05:20   - I mean, and it's also possible that Apple just think

00:05:22   that that's laptop territory.

00:05:24   Like I know that's maybe not what you're asking for,

00:05:27   you know, what people might be asking for,

00:05:29   but maybe for them, they don't feel the need

00:05:31   to cover every possible chip variant in a desktop machine.

00:05:35   I don't know, right?

00:05:36   - I doubt it because Apple, the modern Apple,

00:05:39   We talk a lot about Tim Cook's Apple being really good

00:05:41   at like keeping old products around.

00:05:44   The other thing that I've noticed in the Apple Silicon era

00:05:47   with, especially with modern Apple is,

00:05:49   modern Apple is really good at reusing parts.

00:05:52   They make their own stuff and then they use it everywhere.

00:05:55   And so I think that we will eventually get to the point

00:06:00   where there's M1 Pro stuff in desktops,

00:06:03   just like there are in laptops, because why not?

00:06:06   It's an opportunity to upsell a Mac mini user.

00:06:08   I think it probably will happen, but it's not surprising that it didn't happen this

00:06:11   round because I think the laptops were the priority.

00:06:14   Yeah.

00:06:15   Talking about laptops, the MacBook Air now we're going to move on to.

00:06:20   So 9to5Mac is also—9to5Mac's got a lot of reports at the moment.

00:06:23   They've stumbled across something, they've got some new sources.

00:06:26   You know, we spoke about the fact that they were bang on with the Mac Studio, and both

00:06:31   that Mac Mini and this MacBook Air report they're saying come from their sources.

00:06:35   9to5Mac is reporting that a new MacBook Air and 13-inch MacBook Pro will come later this

00:06:40   year featuring the M2 chip.

00:06:44   We will not be getting the updated MacBook Air until the M2 is ready.

00:06:48   They are also reporting that Apple is considering dropping the Pro from the 13-inch MacBook

00:06:53   Pro, making it just the MacBook.

00:06:56   Whether that will happen this time around or not, they're not sure, but that is something

00:06:59   that Apple is apparently considering, which I think makes a lot of sense.

00:07:03   Yeah, yeah, that would certainly make it a lot less weirder of a product.

00:07:07   Correct.

00:07:08   Yeah, definitely.

00:07:09   And Mark Gurman, the sheriff of The Room Around Up, added to this saying that the new MacBook

00:07:15   Air was originally expected to be a late 2021 product featuring a new design, MagSafe, and

00:07:21   the M2 chip, but it's now expected in the second half of 2022.

00:07:26   I guess this would, you would then assume there has been some kind of hold up on the

00:07:31   M2 it's probably because of all of the shortages around you know like around everything at

00:07:35   the moment so maybe Apple was held off from M2 products because Mark also reports that

00:07:41   an M2 Pro update to the 14 and 16 inch MacBook Pro is now not expected until 2023.

00:07:48   So what it seems from these reports so far is that we will see the M2 this year but the

00:07:54   the M2 Pro could potentially be 2023, right?

00:07:58   Because now the Mac mini and the MacBook Pros

00:08:01   not expected to get any updates until 2023.

00:08:05   - And it looks like what we're looking at here,

00:08:06   at least for now is an 18 to 24 month cycle

00:08:10   of updating these products.

00:08:11   And I wonder in the long run,

00:08:13   I'm wondering what that means in terms of core,

00:08:17   like the base core of the M chips

00:08:19   and where at some point you'll be way behind the A series.

00:08:23   So I wonder if they will have a skip year

00:08:25   where they go like based on like the M2 is based on the A15

00:08:29   but the M3 is based on the A17 or something like that.

00:08:32   Like I do wonder if they'll get there at some point.

00:08:35   I, it's hard to gauge given the supply chain constraints

00:08:39   and everything else exactly what Apple wants this to be.

00:08:43   I have a hard time believing that Apple wants

00:08:45   a two year cycle for upgrades.

00:08:47   I think that it probably wants something more like 18 months

00:08:52   and maybe even annually for some products,

00:08:56   but I don't think, I mean,

00:08:58   what Mark Gurman's report suggests more than anything

00:09:00   is that they really did want to have a new MacBook Air

00:09:04   about a year after the first one,

00:09:06   and they just couldn't do it.

00:09:08   And so now it's gonna be second half,

00:09:10   which I had somebody in a Slack that I'm in say,

00:09:13   "Oh, see, Mark Gurman says now that the MacBook Air

00:09:16   is not gonna come out until the fall."

00:09:17   And it's like, well, second half starts in July 1st, right?

00:09:21   Like you could announce it at WWDC and ship it in July

00:09:24   if you wanted to and that's technically second half.

00:09:27   Yeah, fall is probably more likely, but we don't know yet.

00:09:30   - I'm sure they would love to get it out before

00:09:32   back to school if they can, right?

00:09:33   I think that would be pretty prime.

00:09:35   - I think Apple would love to announce the M2 at WWDC, right?

00:09:40   I think they would love that.

00:09:41   So we, and maybe we will see that.

00:09:44   Yeah, interesting to see that.

00:09:46   And the MacBook Pro being less weird

00:09:50   is an interesting wrinkle.

00:09:51   I've been wondering for a while now

00:09:53   if they would bring back the MacBook name.

00:09:54   That's one way to do it.

00:09:57   But yeah, so I think the question is just

00:09:58   when does the M2 cycle begin now that the M1 seems

00:10:03   to be kind of gliding to its end?

00:10:05   - Ross Young, display analyst,

00:10:07   has some, obviously, some display reports.

00:10:10   A 27-inch mini-LED standalone display

00:10:14   is still expected by Young for June.

00:10:17   And he's referring to it as Studio Display Pro.

00:10:20   and has now corrected a rumor that he was talking about

00:10:25   earlier in the year about an iMac Pro

00:10:28   with these exact specs, 27 inches of mini LED.

00:10:32   What Jung has said was that his supply chain contacts

00:10:36   may have misconstrued what this panel was for

00:10:39   or what he was told.

00:10:40   Basically, it was expected this panel

00:10:42   is gonna be for an iMac Pro, but there is no iMac Pro.

00:10:45   It's going to be its own more expensive display.

00:10:50   27 inches is odd to me, I will say,

00:10:53   because that's exactly what the current studio display is.

00:10:55   I would have expected larger.

00:10:57   - Same.

00:10:58   And the rumors were for a larger iMac too, right?

00:11:02   So that would actually,

00:11:04   there are lots of things for me to be skeptical about,

00:11:07   about this report.

00:11:08   And I don't know Ross Young's track record,

00:11:09   but I'll just say that like,

00:11:11   this feels like something that may be in flux, I guess,

00:11:14   is what I would say.

00:11:16   That is Apple working on a mini LED standalone display

00:11:19   or a mini LED display to put in a large product,

00:11:23   whether it's a standalone or an iMac, undoubtedly right.

00:11:27   - I mean, I'm sure they're working on a replacement

00:11:29   to the Pro Display XDR, which is mini LED, right?

00:11:32   Like that makes sense to me.

00:11:33   - Absolutely, right.

00:11:35   So what I'm saying though is,

00:11:38   I don't know if his information

00:11:40   is gonna get the ship dates right.

00:11:43   It seems weird to me that Apple would follow up

00:11:45   the studio display with a pro version three months later.

00:11:49   That seems very strange to me.

00:11:51   And also that means he's suggesting

00:11:53   that they're going to announce the Mac Pro

00:11:55   at WWDC basically, and then ship it.

00:11:59   Maybe.

00:12:00   - I mean, all of that, it's possible to me.

00:12:02   Like it's possible to me that I can imagine them

00:12:04   launching a new display alongside the Mac Pro.

00:12:07   The thing I would struggle with is if it's the exact

00:12:10   same size as the one that they just announced.

00:12:12   That would be weird to me.

00:12:13   That would be weird.

00:12:15   - I will throw this out there.

00:12:16   putting a display, pairing a display

00:12:18   with a Mac Pro announcement, that's XDR kind of stuff.

00:12:23   You do that when it's really expensive.

00:12:25   And that may be the story here is Apple

00:12:27   is doing a standalone, maybe it's even a 27.

00:12:30   It's gonna be XDR, mini LED backlit,

00:12:34   it's gonna be beautiful.

00:12:35   They're pairing it with a Mac Pro

00:12:37   because everybody's gonna scream bloody murder

00:12:38   when they find out that it costs 3000 bucks, right?

00:12:41   That's the, that's gonna be the trick there.

00:12:45   So if they do it, so for people who are like,

00:12:47   and I know we're gonna talk about the studio display

00:12:49   a little bit later, for people who are saying,

00:12:52   I can't believe it, like, oh, I bought this thing

00:12:54   and now they're gonna do this other awesome thing

00:12:56   and I can't believe that they would do this to me.

00:12:58   Just wait till you see the price of it, right?

00:12:59   'Cause like that's, right now, if they do that,

00:13:03   the what is rumored, it's gonna cost a lot of money.

00:13:06   It's gonna cost way more than $1,600, let me tell you.

00:13:09   And a lot of people are gonna look at the studio display

00:13:13   and say, "Oh, I'll stick with this."

00:13:16   - It's a good deal.

00:13:17   - It's nice.

00:13:18   It's a, well, that's one of the arguments

00:13:21   about the studio display is people are like,

00:13:22   "Oh, but you can get other monitors."

00:13:23   It's like, you can, but really there's only the LG Ultrafine

00:13:27   and everybody, you know, did not embrace the LG Ultrafine.

00:13:31   It's okay and people have bought it,

00:13:33   but now you've got this Apple monitor

00:13:34   and yeah, it's more expensive,

00:13:35   but like what's the competition

00:13:38   in terms of Apple, really Apple focused monitors?

00:13:42   there are other displays and always have been,

00:13:44   but that's the problem that I have is like,

00:13:46   it is fulfilling a specific need that at $1,600,

00:13:51   given that it's from Apple,

00:13:52   I actually was surprised that it wasn't 2000.

00:13:55   So yeah, you pay extra, but you get an Apple display

00:14:00   and that's why, but the next one, if it's this one,

00:14:03   it's not gonna be 1600, it's not gonna be 2000, right?

00:14:06   It's gonna be 2,500 or it's gonna be 3000.

00:14:08   It can be really expensive.

00:14:09   And they're gonna talk about all the pro

00:14:11   and dynamic range features for video

00:14:14   and all that kind of stuff.

00:14:15   And ProMotion, sure, all of that stuff.

00:14:17   And they're gonna put it in a pro context

00:14:19   because no regular person is gonna buy it

00:14:22   for what it's gonna cost at the outset.

00:14:24   And then maybe next year it is in an iMac Pro

00:14:27   and that iMac Pro will also be $5,000 or whatever

00:14:30   like the old iMac Pro was, maybe.

00:14:32   - And finally, Mark Gurman has published his expectation

00:14:35   of the Mac lineup by the end of 2023.

00:14:39   - Just keep in mind, 23, this is next year.

00:14:42   This is 20 months away.

00:14:46   - So Pro, MacBook Pro 14 and 16 inch

00:14:49   with an M2 Pro and M2 Max.

00:14:51   iMac Pro with an M2 Pro and M2 Max.

00:14:55   Max Studio with an M2 Max and M2 Ultra.

00:14:59   Mac Pro with an M2 Ultra and M2 Extreme.

00:15:02   That's what me and Steven said, remember?

00:15:03   - Totally extreme. - A couple of weeks ago,

00:15:05   M2 Extreme.

00:15:06   And Apple Pro Display 7K.

00:15:09   Whatever that is, right?

00:15:13   - It's the XDR replacement, right?

00:15:15   It's the $5,000 display, yeah.

00:15:18   - And then consumer, MacBook Air with an M2,

00:15:21   MacBook Pro 13 inch with an M2,

00:15:24   Mac Mini with an M2, an M2 Pro version

00:15:27   to replace the Intel model,

00:15:28   iMac with an M2, Apple Studio Display.

00:15:31   - Seems pretty reasonable, right?

00:15:33   Like he's filling in the gaps there

00:15:35   of what exists already and what seems like

00:15:38   it will probably exist, and then filling it

00:15:40   with M2 processors so they finish the next turn

00:15:43   of the wheel, I think that's all pretty reasonable.

00:15:46   The things that make you raise your eyebrows

00:15:48   are iMac Pro, right, because they don't have

00:15:51   something like that now, and that would be,

00:15:54   and I think our guess that we just made

00:15:56   is probably right, which is if you do that,

00:15:58   you really make an iMac Pro and you put the good display

00:16:01   in it and you offer the same stuff that's in the Mac Studio

00:16:04   and it costs, right?

00:16:07   Maybe it doesn't start at 5,000,

00:16:09   but maybe it starts at 3,000

00:16:10   and then the ultra version is 5,000, something like that.

00:16:13   But I could see it, I could see it.

00:16:16   And then on the consumer side, yeah,

00:16:18   I mean, that's basically just everything that's obvious

00:16:21   plus the Intel Mac Mini being replaced,

00:16:25   which is also obvious.

00:16:26   I think that's right.

00:16:28   I think Apple's consumer story

00:16:29   is actually pretty clear right now

00:16:30   of what they're gonna do.

00:16:32   We need to know some of the details,

00:16:33   but I don't think anybody really expects

00:16:35   a giant revamp of it.

00:16:37   They're just gonna, you know,

00:16:37   they'll update the MacBook Air

00:16:39   and they're gonna fix the MacBook Pro 13 inch

00:16:41   so that it isn't what it currently is

00:16:43   and maybe rebrand it when they do that.

00:16:45   That's an interesting idea.

00:16:46   And then I, we're still too early to settle on

00:16:50   exactly what Apple's desired cycle is for this.

00:16:53   I really am fascinated by that.

00:16:55   Are they gonna try to turn this over every two years

00:16:57   or every year or every 18 months?

00:16:59   but there's less surprise it looks like.

00:17:04   Of course, true surprises are surprises,

00:17:08   but I don't know,

00:17:09   I feel like we're getting in the shape of it now.

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00:18:24   super awesome.

00:18:54   So the Mac Studio is now available to the world.

00:18:58   And of course you wrote your review,

00:19:00   which was published late last week.

00:19:03   And so we're going to talk about it.

00:19:04   Can you remind the Upgrading listeners,

00:19:07   the Upgrading's out there,

00:19:08   the configuration that you have here

00:19:11   and also the configuration that you ordered for yourself?

00:19:14   - The one that I've got here from Apple is the 3199 version.

00:19:20   It's got the 32 core GPU.

00:19:23   It's the M1 Max, 32 core GPU, two terabytes of storage,

00:19:26   64 gigs of RAM.

00:19:28   The one I ordered was the 24 core GPU

00:19:31   with 32 gigs of RAM and two terabytes storage.

00:19:34   - Okay, so it's, storage is the same, less RAM,

00:19:39   and yours is the base M1 Max, is that right?

00:19:42   The 24 core?

00:19:43   - With two gig, two terabytes of storage.

00:19:46   - Yeah, but it's just the base configuration.

00:19:49   Okay.

00:19:49   - I almost went with the base base,

00:19:51   But I have a, my iMac Pro had one terabyte of onboard storage

00:19:55   and I decided that was, I wanted more than that

00:19:59   because I was hitting right up against it.

00:20:00   - I wouldn't say it's cheap because I mean,

00:20:02   you're being practical with it.

00:20:04   Like this is already more powerful than the machine,

00:20:07   you know, that is replacing.

00:20:08   - Yeah, what I'm saying is more that like,

00:20:09   when I got the iMac Pro, I got the base model.

00:20:12   And when I got the Mac studio, I got the base model.

00:20:14   Plus a little bit, but mostly I got the base model.

00:20:16   'Cause for me, I am one of those people who's like,

00:20:18   I'm tempted by those pro kind of features,

00:20:21   but I'm not gonna go venturing up

00:20:25   into the high-end configured order expensive.

00:20:28   It's like for me, getting to the base model

00:20:31   is the place that achieves my goal

00:20:35   and then I don't need to go beyond that.

00:20:37   - Yep.

00:20:38   One of the things I find interesting right now,

00:20:40   like I've just been poking around on Apple's website

00:20:42   and basically the only machines that are available

00:20:46   for pickup anywhere are the base configurations.

00:20:48   Like you add any kind of build to order spec

00:20:50   and it's like unavailable and it's 10 to 12 weeks.

00:20:53   Like anything that you change.

00:20:55   I mean, usually, I mean in the past,

00:20:57   you know, we've experienced this.

00:20:58   There are like certain configurations

00:21:00   that you keep in store.

00:21:01   Now, and I don't know if you go to an Apple store,

00:21:03   maybe it's different, but for the pickup at least,

00:21:06   like, you know, sometimes maybe if you bumped up the RAM one

00:21:09   and bumped up the SSD one, you might be able to get it.

00:21:11   But at the moment it seems like everything

00:21:13   is really, really back ordered.

00:21:15   I mean, and just in general,

00:21:16   like I know that it's been tough, like my display,

00:21:18   we're gonna talk about display in a bit,

00:21:20   isn't coming still, like I've had no update,

00:21:22   is sometime between the end of March

00:21:24   and the beginning of April, and I ordered it immediately.

00:21:27   But that's because I didn't go for the regular one,

00:21:30   which you can pick those up in store,

00:21:33   but if you want one of the stand options,

00:21:35   you know, like either the VESA or the adjustable stand,

00:21:37   you have to get it online and you are gonna be waiting.

00:21:40   So I don't know what's going on there, but.

00:21:42   - Well, I mean, the factories in Shenzhen

00:21:46   shut down briefly for COVID.

00:21:49   - I mean on top of everything else.

00:21:50   So like, it was already delays, I'm sure,

00:21:53   before even that all started to happen again.

00:21:55   So do you have any, having used a machine

00:21:58   which is going to be a bit more powerful

00:22:00   than the one that you have ordered,

00:22:02   do you have any regrets about the order that you made?

00:22:04   - No. - Okay.

00:22:06   - I'm not ever stressing the GPU really of anything,

00:22:09   and 24 core GPU.

00:22:11   Yeah, it's fine.

00:22:12   It's okay.

00:22:13   I'll be fine.

00:22:13   I'll be just fine with that. - And 32 gigabytes of RAM

00:22:15   is definitely gonna be enough too.

00:22:16   - Yeah, I think so.

00:22:18   Like, I, yeah, I think so.

00:22:22   That's, I have a hard time justifying the cost

00:22:25   to go up to 64, and I'm not sure that it really is,

00:22:28   again, one of those things that is necessary for my use.

00:22:31   - Yeah, like I've told this story before on the show, right?

00:22:32   Like I've got 16 gigabytes of RAM on my first M1 machine,

00:22:36   because it was all I could do, right?

00:22:37   And I have 16 gigabytes of RAM on the iMac in front of me.

00:22:40   Now, the MacBook Pro was a problem.

00:22:42   Like I was, it was always telling me

00:22:43   it was running out of RAM.

00:22:44   So when I got my new MacBook Pro,

00:22:47   like the second generation MacBook Pro

00:22:49   went up to 64 gigabytes,

00:22:50   and that's what was more than needed.

00:22:53   Like I could have got away with 32

00:22:55   and I reckon I'd be absolutely fine.

00:22:57   There was just something going on with that MacBook Pro

00:22:59   because I never get those like pop-ups telling me

00:23:03   I've run out of RAM on my iMac.

00:23:05   And I put my iMac through way more

00:23:06   than I put that MacBook Pro through.

00:23:08   So I don't know what's going on.

00:23:08   - Something weird.

00:23:09   - Something weird was happening.

00:23:10   - Going on.

00:23:11   But whereas the terabytes on the SSD,

00:23:13   it's like I live with this thing,

00:23:16   I have big projects.

00:23:17   I have had those moments

00:23:19   where I've needed to clear things out.

00:23:21   It's not, you know,

00:23:22   I'm not always running right up against it,

00:23:24   but it's enough for me to be,

00:23:29   to decide I don't,

00:23:30   I'll pay some money to not be bothered by it anymore.

00:23:34   Like this one here has two terabytes

00:23:36   and I have 1.05 terabytes available, right?

00:23:40   So you can see I'm right up against it.

00:23:43   and I'd be happy to not be right up against it.

00:23:46   - Oh, for sure.

00:23:47   Like I have a terabyte on my iMac

00:23:50   and I have 286 gigabytes available.

00:23:52   I don't like that.

00:23:54   - Yeah, exactly.

00:23:54   - Like that's closer than I need to be considering,

00:23:57   you know, I have things that can get very large in size

00:24:00   very quickly, like projects that I'm working on, you know?

00:24:02   So I would, again, it was all I could do with the M1.

00:24:06   Like I don't think I had much more of an option,

00:24:09   at least for this machine.

00:24:11   So I agree, like storage, I mean,

00:24:13   Because how long did you have your iMac Pro for?

00:24:15   Like four, five years?

00:24:17   Something like that?

00:24:19   - Well, since it came out, so what is that?

00:24:21   That's-- - 2017, wasn't it?

00:24:22   - It was December 2017, so four plus years.

00:24:27   - And so again, the expectation would be

00:24:29   that that's what this Mac Studio will get from you.

00:24:32   So if there was anything you were gonna change,

00:24:34   I would completely agree with you

00:24:35   that SSD storage is the one to bump up for.

00:24:38   - Yeah, I think so.

00:24:39   - I wanna read a quote from your article.

00:24:40   "This is a computer designed to be used,

00:24:42   to be looked at as a piece of art.

00:24:44   When you choose to stick ports on the front of a computer,

00:24:46   you are choosing function over form.

00:24:49   That is the story of the Mac studio.

00:24:52   - Yep.

00:24:53   - It is a very utilitarian computer.

00:24:55   - Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that,

00:24:57   but that's what it is.

00:24:58   - It's telling the story of itself,

00:25:00   like in the way that you mentioned it, right?

00:25:01   Like they have built a computer to work good.

00:25:05   And that's what it does, right?

00:25:08   - I refer to it, some people complain

00:25:10   'cause I refer to it as homely,

00:25:11   which is, it's a slur, right?

00:25:14   I am saying that it's unattractive in appearance,

00:25:17   but also I will point out that there is this other meaning

00:25:20   sort of like, or at least vibe from that term.

00:25:22   And I know in the Britishism,

00:25:23   homely also means sort of like comfy,

00:25:28   like not fancy, but cozy and comfy and unpretentious.

00:25:32   That's another kind of phrase of homely.

00:25:35   And that is also what I mean.

00:25:37   Like it is a tool.

00:25:40   It is designed to be used.

00:25:42   It is utilitarian.

00:25:44   And is it beautiful and an object of art?

00:25:48   No, no, no, no, it's not.

00:25:51   And that's the point.

00:25:52   And it's okay.

00:25:53   And if you like how it looks, great.

00:25:55   But I feel like it is,

00:25:58   it's supposed to look like something that you actually use.

00:26:02   And if they put the ports, the ports of the story, right?

00:26:05   Like they put ports on the front and a slot on the front.

00:26:08   You do that when you don't care about the form

00:26:13   because you really know that people want ports on the front

00:26:16   for the function.

00:26:16   And that tells the whole story of this product.

00:26:19   And that's good.

00:26:20   It's a good thing.

00:26:22   We've just spent five years or more with pros,

00:26:26   especially telling Apple,

00:26:27   "Stop making my life harder for aesthetics

00:26:31   "I don't care about when I'm doing my job."

00:26:33   - And also, by putting ports on the front of it,

00:26:36   - There is a demonstration of saying,

00:26:38   we are proud of the way this thing looks

00:26:39   'cause we want you to put it in front of you on your desk.

00:26:42   - Sure.

00:26:43   - You know, like by putting the ports on the front,

00:26:45   rather than say like on the top,

00:26:47   like they are on the Mac Pro, right?

00:26:49   Which is like, oh, we know we're gonna put this thing

00:26:51   under the desk 'cause we put them on the top

00:26:53   so they're easy to get to.

00:26:54   But putting them on the front,

00:26:56   that is saying like, this thing sits on the table

00:26:58   and that's where all of Apple's shots show, right?

00:27:01   Like it's on the table in front of you.

00:27:03   - Day one, I had plugged into the front ports

00:27:07   and put a card in the card slot, day one.

00:27:10   I was doing those photos for the Verge

00:27:12   and I was just sticking the card in the slot

00:27:14   from out of the Sony camera.

00:27:17   And then when I was pairing the wireless track pad,

00:27:22   I just plugged it into the front

00:27:25   'cause it was right there, right?

00:27:26   Like I would reach around to the back

00:27:27   to just plug it in right there.

00:27:29   And it's like, oh, now this track pad is paired

00:27:31   I can continue the startup process.

00:27:33   - I kind of wished I had one USB-C port

00:27:36   in the front of my iMac.

00:27:38   Like I really do.

00:27:40   And I know that sounds silly,

00:27:41   but like I have to do that similar thing

00:27:42   because of the way,

00:27:43   I mean, anytime, right?

00:27:44   You use one of their keyboards, Apple's keyboards,

00:27:46   every now and then you go to plug it in to charge it.

00:27:48   And I kind of find it awkward to reach behind there,

00:27:51   you know?

00:27:51   And with my iMac Pro, I used to have one of these things,

00:27:54   I think SanDisk made it maybe,

00:27:56   where it would like put some ports on the front

00:27:58   and it was like color matched to the iMac Pro.

00:28:01   So you could have some ports on the front.

00:28:02   And I liked that.

00:28:03   Like, I think that that's good.

00:28:05   Or like David is saying,

00:28:06   and the chat on the side would be nicer even.

00:28:09   Right, 'cause you're putting it on the back.

00:28:10   It's like a little awkward.

00:28:11   I have to like move the iMac,

00:28:13   which luckily this 24 inch iMac is so incredibly light.

00:28:16   It's very easy to just swivel on the base that I got it on.

00:28:20   But you know, there is something to be said

00:28:22   for having ports on the front of your machine.

00:28:24   All right, and especially this machine.

00:28:26   this is meant to be like a creative workhorse machine,

00:28:30   like that's what it's for.

00:28:32   And so exactly that, right?

00:28:33   You want to put an SD card port on it, great.

00:28:36   Put it on the back, you will just annoy everyone.

00:28:39   Everyone will be annoyed at you,

00:28:40   if you put the SD card port on the back of the thing.

00:28:42   - Absolutely, right?

00:28:43   And if you think about it in a,

00:28:44   whether it's in a, like a lot of us are individuals,

00:28:47   but like if it's in a studio environment

00:28:48   where it's locked down by a bunch of IT people,

00:28:50   or it's an education environment,

00:28:51   or it's a video lab in a high school,

00:28:54   or something like that,

00:28:55   Like IT people are gonna come in

00:28:56   and they're gonna have everything plugged in the back

00:28:58   and it's gonna be all zip tied off and locked down

00:29:00   and have the security bolt on it and all those things, right?

00:29:04   And then the kid comes in with a camera

00:29:07   and they're like, all right,

00:29:08   well now I need to import my footage

00:29:09   or the person in the pro studio environment.

00:29:13   It's like, well, that's what the ports

00:29:14   on the front are for, right?

00:29:15   Like that's, you don't need to mess with it.

00:29:17   It's mounted, it's locked, whatever it is, doesn't matter.

00:29:21   Use the ports in the front.

00:29:22   Ports in the front are right there.

00:29:23   And that's, it's just utilitarian and it is good.

00:29:26   And I like, I used it immediately.

00:29:28   So I thought that was, I thought that was great.

00:29:30   By the way, as an aside,

00:29:31   since you're talking about your iMac,

00:29:33   putting an Apple Silicon computer on my desk

00:29:36   also meant that I initiated operation be like Myke Hurley,

00:29:40   which is I now have,

00:29:43   I now have a secret button underneath my desk

00:29:46   that I can place my finger on to unlock things via touch ID.

00:29:49   And no one needs to know

00:29:50   that there's a whole keyboard under there.

00:29:52   - Isn't it great though? - Velcro to the bottom.

00:29:54   I just have a little secret touch ID button.

00:29:56   Like I could, like I'm like a James Bond villain

00:29:58   and I'm dropping somebody into a pool of sharks.

00:30:00   It's like a ha, there it is. - That's how I feel.

00:30:01   I feel like I'm a Spectre agent, you know?

00:30:04   - Yep, I'm doing it.

00:30:05   I'm doing it.

00:30:05   I'm thinking about getting like carabiner or something

00:30:10   and like blocking out all the other keys on the keyboard

00:30:14   so that I don't accidentally miss and type things.

00:30:17   - I've never done it.

00:30:19   I've never done it.

00:30:19   - Once you locate where it is in your mind,

00:30:22   then you don't do it.

00:30:24   But I did the first day, I did a whole bunch of nonsense.

00:30:28   - The only thing I've ever done is if for some reason,

00:30:31   I don't know why, I've maybe messed around with my chair

00:30:35   a little bit, like the arms on my chair or something.

00:30:37   If I kind of just shuffle a little in my chair,

00:30:40   I can lock my Mac because it hits the power button

00:30:44   on the keyboard. - Ah yeah, that's not so good.

00:30:45   - And so it just locks it for me.

00:30:49   but you know, most of the time, not an issue.

00:30:51   But yeah, you can go wild if you want to,

00:30:53   you can type as much as you like.

00:30:54   - And I'm sad that it's only the silver version

00:30:56   that's available online, but then again,

00:30:58   I can't see that keyboard, so it's fine, it's fine.

00:31:01   - I have a beautiful yellow keyboard

00:31:02   stuck to the bottom of my desk.

00:31:04   Talking about your desk, you reference it being cluttered,

00:31:07   and that you now have an Apple Silicon computer

00:31:09   on your desk, right, you got a monitor,

00:31:11   we're gonna talk about the monitor in a bit,

00:31:12   but the machine is sitting on the top.

00:31:14   - Yes.

00:31:15   - What do you feel about this, having this big machine,

00:31:18   big quote unquote, like sitting on the desk.

00:31:20   Is that, how does that feel for you?

00:31:22   - Yeah, keep in mind with the iMac,

00:31:24   I am both iMac Pro and the iMac 5K before that.

00:31:28   It's been since I first moved in here

00:31:30   and I had a Dell monitor on an arm

00:31:32   and I had a MacBook Air dock to it, right?

00:31:34   That I've had something on the desk

00:31:37   'cause with the arm it's floating above the desk.

00:31:39   And if people wanna look at this,

00:31:42   I mean, I guess I can get an image for the show notes.

00:31:43   We did a video, Dan Morin and I did a video

00:31:46   after the embargo dropped for about 90 minutes

00:31:48   and we answered questions and we talked about it.

00:31:50   And one of the shots in that for most of that video

00:31:52   is an overhead shot of my desk.

00:31:54   So you can see the Mac studio and you can see the display

00:31:56   and you can see all the cables.

00:31:58   And that was a, so it's a change

00:32:02   'cause I have this thing on my desk

00:32:03   that didn't used to be there.

00:32:05   What's nice about it from a cabling perspective

00:32:08   is that most of the cables go into the back

00:32:10   of the Mac studio, which is over right now,

00:32:12   I've got it over by the cable port on the top of the desk,

00:32:16   the hole that the cables route through.

00:32:18   And then only two cables, right?

00:32:22   Only two cables, power and the Thunderbolt cable

00:32:25   are running to the display.

00:32:28   So it's less cable cluttery in that way.

00:32:31   And when the ARM, when I get my VESA mount version

00:32:34   with ARM, those two cables will run down the ARM.

00:32:36   - I see.

00:32:37   - But I do have this square.

00:32:39   - Because when with the iMac,

00:32:41   all of the cables have to run freely to the machine itself.

00:32:45   - Yes.

00:32:46   - And then they're on the ARM

00:32:46   and you need some slack on them. - A bunch.

00:32:47   so you can move it around.

00:32:49   - Yeah, exactly.

00:32:50   - All of the like, most of the ports

00:32:52   that you can just put them all the way in the corner

00:32:54   if you want to, 'cause they're attached to the Mac itself.

00:32:57   - Right.

00:32:58   - You know, how do you feel about having the computer

00:32:59   on your desk though?

00:33:00   - It's gonna take some getting used to,

00:33:02   and I'm not sure I will get used to it.

00:33:04   I'm open to the idea of mounting it under my desk, honestly.

00:33:08   I'm thinking about that, like if somebody would make,

00:33:12   and it hasn't happened yet,

00:33:13   there are companies that make under desk mounts,

00:33:14   but they have not made one that is for the essentially

00:33:18   Mac mini dimensions, but four inches high,

00:33:21   which is what you need for this thing.

00:33:23   I'm sure someone will, right?

00:33:24   If they haven't already,

00:33:25   they will be announcing those products soon.

00:33:27   But like, I would be open to doing that.

00:33:29   I would probably want to mount it

00:33:31   toward the front of my desk,

00:33:32   so I had access to the slots and stuff.

00:33:35   But getting it off my desk might be nice,

00:33:38   just because it would give me more space on my desk,

00:33:41   'cause I like my desk to be uncluttered.

00:33:43   But it's okay.

00:33:45   It's just fascinating to me

00:33:48   because I just got used to the all-in-one life, right?

00:33:51   And now I'm not in that all-in-one life.

00:33:54   And so I've got this other object that has,

00:33:57   the pro is all the cables just feed into it.

00:34:00   And then the one cable comes out

00:34:03   and goes to the monitor from the computer.

00:34:05   That's great.

00:34:06   But the other thing is there is this block of aluminum

00:34:09   sitting on the top of my desk

00:34:11   and that's a different kind of feel.

00:34:12   So I'll be interested to see how I adapt to it over time.

00:34:16   And if I do end up mounting it

00:34:20   underneath the desktop instead.

00:34:23   - Right. - We'll see.

00:34:24   - I've been kind of perplexed a little bit

00:34:27   about the M1 Max in the Max Studio

00:34:32   after reading your review.

00:34:35   - Yep.

00:34:35   - And it's kind of about performance

00:34:37   and how that performance is extracted in the machine.

00:34:42   So I want to start off just by getting your thoughts on the performance of the machine

00:34:46   in general and for you how it compares to the computer it is replacing. So like how have you

00:34:52   felt about the performance improvements compared to I think the most important thing the previous

00:34:56   Pro Mac that you had? Sure I think so first again to be clear Apple did not supply me with an M1

00:35:05   Ultra configuration, wish they had but they didn't. I honestly Jason I'm actually kind of pleased they

00:35:10   they didn't. And the reason is, is like, I feel like there's been too much, all the reviews

00:35:16   that I've seen, focus on the Ultra, which is not the machine most people will buy.

00:35:20   Right. It's the news though, but it's not the machine most people will buy.

00:35:23   I understand maybe from your perspective of like writing the review, maybe you'd want

00:35:27   the biggest, but me as a reader, I'm happy you actually got the more realistic one.

00:35:33   So what in doing that though, what I realized in having the M1 Max is I compared it to the

00:35:43   M1 Max MacBook Pro that I reviewed last fall.

00:35:47   I ran the same tests.

00:35:50   And since this is the first time we've had two non-M1 Apple Silicon Macs that ran the

00:35:58   same chip.

00:35:59   Now I know that was a lot of qualifiers, so let me phrase it a different way too.

00:36:01   We have a lot of M1 devices, right?

00:36:04   Mac Mini, MacBook Air, 13-inch MacBook Pro,

00:36:08   and then the iMac, iPad Pro, now the iPad Air,

00:36:13   they all have the M1.

00:36:14   And if you do tests on them, they're all the same.

00:36:18   Like they're all the same, because the M1 is the M1.

00:36:20   And Apple silicon computers don't have a lot of variance.

00:36:23   They're not like cranking up the clock speed on some

00:36:26   and cranking it down on others.

00:36:27   There's a little bit of variation,

00:36:29   especially when the things that aren't cooled

00:36:31   and they are running hot,

00:36:33   that they will crank down a little bit,

00:36:34   but like they're pretty much just what they are.

00:36:38   And I know we've talked about this before.

00:36:40   An M1 computer is an M1 computer,

00:36:42   and it's just, you buy what shape you want.

00:36:45   Do you want a standalone little Mac mini thing?

00:36:47   Do you want an iMac?

00:36:48   Do you want a laptop?

00:36:50   Which kind of laptop?

00:36:51   We've got two.

00:36:52   Do you want an iPad?

00:36:52   We got two of those now too.

00:36:54   So M1 is M1.

00:36:56   Now we get an M1 Mac Studio.

00:36:59   Okay, well we already know about the M1 Macs

00:37:01   from the MacBook Pro.

00:37:03   And what I found is that the same holds for the M1 Max.

00:37:08   An M1 Max is an M1 Max.

00:37:10   So if you are thinking of a roughly, I think I priced it,

00:37:15   $3,200 MacBook Pro with the same configurations

00:37:20   as a $2,000 Max Studio, they're the same.

00:37:26   One of them is a laptop with a really awesome screen.

00:37:30   That's why it costs more.

00:37:31   And one of them is this hunk of

00:37:33   aluminum that sits on your desk.

00:37:35   But in terms of performance, they're

00:37:37   exactly the same, especially the 16,

00:37:39   because the 16 inch MacBook Pro has a

00:37:41   little bit better cooling and stuff.

00:37:42   So there's a little less throttling.

00:37:43   But the truth is, even in most

00:37:45   circumstances, the 14 inch MacBook Pro

00:37:47   is it's an M1 Max and an M1 Max is an M1 Max.

00:37:52   We'll see where Apple Silicon goes in

00:37:53   the future. But right now, like if it,

00:37:56   if it has the same specs, it's the same

00:37:57   computer. And so there's no surprises with the Max Studio in that way. It is a

00:38:04   an M1 Max MacBook Pro you put on your desk. Now keep in mind that's the high-end

00:38:08   MacBook Pro and this is the base model Max Studio. So it's not the, like I bought

00:38:13   my son a MacBook Pro last week because his computer hilariously died or was

00:38:17   dying hilariously and I bought him the base model 14-inch MacBook Pro. That's a

00:38:22   that's an M1 Pro. That is not what is in the Max Studio. The Max Studio is better

00:38:26   than that. But if you spec it up to be the same, it's the same, that MacBook Pro and

00:38:33   the Mac Studio. So that's my first thought is, it's just interesting. And if you're somebody

00:38:38   who is a MacBook Pro person, and you're looking at the Mac Studio and comparing it to your

00:38:43   laptop and thinking, "Should I buy a Mac Studio?" I think it's worth saying that if you're putting

00:38:47   money into a MacBook Pro with all those specs, maybe you should just, if you're not going

00:38:54   to get the ultra configuration of the studio, maybe you should just get a monitor if you

00:38:58   don't have one already and dock it and you're going to get the same performance. Like that

00:39:04   $3,200 MacBook Pro attached to the studio display would be basically identical to the

00:39:11   Mac Studio. It costs more, more than $1,000 more, but it would basically be identical.

00:39:17   So that's one lesson that I learned is we have reinforced the M1 is an M1 is an M1,

00:39:22   M1 Max is an M1 Max, that's just how it is.

00:39:25   Now, I had an eight core Xeon 2017 iMac Pro.

00:39:30   So for me, like it's, it is,

00:39:36   there were some things that even the MacBook Air M1

00:39:38   was faster than my iMac Pro,

00:39:39   but there were some things where it wasn't.

00:39:41   But with iZotope, which is my high-end, you know,

00:39:44   audio plugins that I use all the time,

00:39:46   doing their Apple Silicon version,

00:39:49   and then running it on the M1 Max,

00:39:51   Like, okay, everything is a lot faster.

00:39:55   Final Cut exports are faster.

00:39:57   The SSD is twice as fast,

00:39:59   'cause remember, SSDs keep getting faster.

00:40:02   And the iMac Pro was no slouch.

00:40:04   It was a $5,000 Pro-level iMac

00:40:06   that was meant to replace the Mac Pro.

00:40:07   It's no slouch, but, you know, time moves on. (laughs)

00:40:12   And now we're in Apple Silicon Land,

00:40:14   and everything is better.

00:40:16   So I just had that moment, you know,

00:40:18   everybody out there who's gotten a new computer,

00:40:20   which is everybody out there.

00:40:21   You know that feeling, right?

00:40:22   Where everything seems the same,

00:40:25   but it isn't, like everything is just smoother.

00:40:30   And you're like, it's different.

00:40:33   It's like, everything's just a little faster

00:40:35   and a little more responsive.

00:40:36   And like, that is the feeling I've had for the last week

00:40:39   plus that I've had this is,

00:40:41   I've migrated my whole system over

00:40:42   and I've been using it as my regular system

00:40:44   and it's just, everything's nicer.

00:40:47   Everything about it.

00:40:50   coming from an older iMac Pro, but yeah, it's delightful.

00:40:55   It really is.

00:40:56   But just to keep in mind for people

00:40:57   who are MacBook Pro people,

00:40:59   there's no inherent desktop-ness

00:41:02   that is brought by the Mac Studio.

00:41:04   The MacBook Pro has all that stuff too.

00:41:06   And the difference is you pay an extra thousand plus dollars

00:41:10   'cause it's a laptop and it's got the screen,

00:41:12   et cetera, et cetera.

00:41:14   - But this is the thing that's been so intriguing to me.

00:41:16   Well, one, I will say I'm happy

00:41:17   that you're feeling those gains from the iMac,

00:41:20   which you would obviously.

00:41:22   But once, there's just some stuff that was interesting.

00:41:24   Like you mentioned that there is a persistent fan noise

00:41:27   that this machine puts out.

00:41:29   - It's quiet.

00:41:30   - The MacBook Pro does not do this.

00:41:33   And so like, I just, what is intriguing to me is like,

00:41:37   it seems like this machine was built for the Ultra, right?

00:41:42   But then they put the Macs in it, like the M1 Macs in it.

00:41:46   But then because they built this like huge fan

00:41:49   and the heat sink and everything for the Ultra,

00:41:52   the Max version also gets it

00:41:56   and everything that comes along with that,

00:41:59   but it therefore produces slightly different characteristics

00:42:02   for ultimately the same performance.

00:42:04   - Yeah, it's a different heat sink, right?

00:42:06   - It's a material, but like the Max chip

00:42:09   does not need that heat sink to perform

00:42:11   because the MacBook Pro doesn't have it.

00:42:13   - Well, except that the way that the MacBook Pro ventilation

00:42:15   is designed versus the way the Max Studio ventilation

00:42:17   is designed, right?

00:42:18   Yeah, because they want an unbroken top.

00:42:20   And so they're pulling the air in from the bottom

00:42:23   and then shooting it out the back.

00:42:24   And you know, it is, the fan is always running.

00:42:28   I will say that what's nice about that is

00:42:30   that the sound is consistent.

00:42:31   I couldn't get the fan to change the sound.

00:42:33   The fan runs the way it runs.

00:42:35   The fan is also imperceptible unless you're

00:42:37   in an absolutely silent room.

00:42:39   But my room was absolutely silent at one point.

00:42:41   It didn't have music playing, nothing else going on.

00:42:44   and nobody, the Roomba wasn't going in the other room.

00:42:47   Like it was absolutely silent.

00:42:48   And I just had a moment where I went,

00:42:51   oh, because I could hear it.

00:42:53   Very quiet, very quiet.

00:42:55   I think you would, if you're one of those people

00:42:58   who's like, everything must be silent,

00:43:00   you know, I have to report it.

00:43:02   That like, there is a sound there.

00:43:04   The studio display also has a fan by the way,

00:43:06   but I can't hear that at all.

00:43:08   That's completely silent.

00:43:09   But the next studio, it has a little bit of a fan.

00:43:14   I don't think it's a big deal, but it was another one of those, like having a computer

00:43:19   on my desk, it was one of those adaptations where I'm like, "Oh, this computer sounds

00:43:25   like something when it's on and you have to listen carefully."

00:43:28   Whereas, it's not like the iMac Pro fans didn't blow all the time, but they were pointed away

00:43:33   from me behind the whole screen.

00:43:36   And so that sound didn't really reach me, I had to go around to the other side and put

00:43:40   my ear to it.

00:43:42   And this one, I didn't have to do that, I could hear it, it was very quiet and it's

00:43:46   subsumed by literally any other noise.

00:43:48   It's just a very, very low, quiet white noise sound.

00:43:53   But it's there, just, it's worth – I'm not complaining about it, it's much more

00:43:57   like a warning label because I know some people are like, "It must be absolutely silent."

00:44:01   Well, it's not absolutely silent, that's not the case.

00:44:04   And I'm not one of these people either who cares about that kind of stuff.

00:44:08   My kind of thing I'm pointing out is just I find it really interesting that the Mac

00:44:13   Studio and the MacBook Pro have basically the same performance with the same guts in

00:44:19   the Mac's version, but they are just built very differently.

00:44:23   They are.

00:44:24   They are.

00:44:25   And it's just really intriguing to me.

00:44:26   It's like a thing that it will do.

00:44:28   And the Mac Studio is cheaper.

00:44:29   Again, I want to point that out, because I think this goes into that other thought, which

00:44:33   is the thing that I have definitely gone back and forth on, which is do I want to buy a

00:44:38   Mac Studio or do I really want to buy a MacBook Pro because I do sometimes need

00:44:41   a Mac laptop and attach it and that's when I configured out the MacBook Pro

00:44:46   for $1,200 more or something. And what I realized was personally everybody is

00:44:54   different here. What I realized was I would rather have a desktop Mac that

00:45:01   meets my needs for absolute day-to-day use and then spend $9.99 on a MacBook Air

00:45:07   I can travel with that is not gonna be as powerful,

00:45:11   but that's fine, rather than spending, you know,

00:45:16   more than $3,000 on a laptop.

00:45:18   And I just, that's what I decided.

00:45:22   And I know that, 'cause like literally,

00:45:23   you add the MacBook Air and the Mac Studio together,

00:45:25   it's about the cost of the laptop.

00:45:26   So I could unify, but you know,

00:45:29   then I can get a new MacBook Air down the road

00:45:32   and Mac Studio will still be here.

00:45:33   And I don't, they're not yoked together in any way.

00:45:36   I just decided that I would rather have that lighter,

00:45:40   lower cost laptop experience for when I travel

00:45:43   and not have it be a no compromises,

00:45:46   I'm bringing my whole setup with me.

00:45:48   But everybody's gonna be different.

00:45:50   - Yeah, and of course, right?

00:45:51   Like the MacBook Pro is partly more expensive

00:45:54   because it has a display, et cetera, et cetera.

00:45:56   But you would need to have a display for the Mac Studio.

00:46:01   But then if you were gonna be using the MacBook Pro

00:46:03   on a desk, you would also want a display for that,

00:46:05   which then makes it even more expensive, right?

00:46:08   - Well, that's basically my argument is,

00:46:11   I'm gonna have a 27 inch display on my desk.

00:46:14   So the question is, do I attach a Mac Studio to it

00:46:17   or do I attach a MacBook Pro to it?

00:46:19   And everybody's gonna be different.

00:46:21   I decided that I would rather have the thin and light

00:46:25   little laptop to take with me

00:46:28   and have that power on my desk rather than the other option,

00:46:31   which is to have the laptop that does it all,

00:46:33   that lives most of the time plugged in.

00:46:36   But it was a close call, honestly,

00:46:41   but I think in the end, I'm just happier this way.

00:46:46   - Yeah, I have no idea what my future lies at the moment

00:46:49   with my recording setup.

00:46:50   I know now for my main working setup,

00:46:54   it's gonna be exactly what I have now

00:46:57   just with a different monitor, right?

00:46:58   So instead of having the LG display that I have,

00:47:00   I'm gonna have the Apple Studio display.

00:47:02   But there was always a question of like what happens on the desk that I'm at right now

00:47:06   where I have the M1 iMac and I have like just a Dell display on the side just because I

00:47:13   need a bit more screen space.

00:47:15   And you know I have no idea what it's going to look like for me.

00:47:17   You know I was wondering would it be the Mac studio but I don't think so.

00:47:22   But then like would I just use, should I just use my MacBook Pro?

00:47:24   Should I just move it from machine to machine, like from desk to desk?

00:47:28   one inside of my like sound isolated area where I record like do it and just

00:47:33   have two displays like I have no idea right now what I'm gonna do because my

00:47:37   original thought was oh I'll just put an iMac Pro in here but and maybe I wait

00:47:41   right like maybe I just keep running this iMac for like another year which it

00:47:45   definitely could do my only problem is every time like I travel I realize just

00:47:51   how much quicker my MacBook Pro is doing the tasks that I'm doing every day when

00:47:57   when I'm here on my M1 machine.

00:47:59   And there it is, I'm noticing significant differences

00:48:02   in some of the tasks that I'm performing now,

00:48:05   just from a time perspective that I miss

00:48:07   when I'm doing on my M1.

00:48:09   But yeah, so last thing I wanted to ask you

00:48:12   about the Mac Studio is, was this a hard computer to review?

00:48:15   - I think because I didn't get the Ultra,

00:48:21   it was not as hard.

00:48:24   In fact, I mean, my display review is longer

00:48:27   than my Mac Studio review.

00:48:29   I did more tests, but I always do tests.

00:48:31   - The fact that the display review was longer

00:48:33   was what made me think of this question.

00:48:35   - Yeah, so I would say it wasn't harder to review

00:48:39   because it was completely full of things we knew

00:48:41   in terms of performance.

00:48:44   So that is sometimes a harder thing, right?

00:48:46   'Cause you need to quantify performance.

00:48:48   And instead I really was able to say,

00:48:50   it's a MacBook Pro and one of Macs, right?

00:48:52   They're the same, there's no surprises here.

00:48:55   And in the end then, I mean,

00:48:57   'cause these reviews aren't easy to do,

00:48:58   but in the end then it becomes

00:49:00   like a couple of different essays.

00:49:02   Like it's an essay about using all in one

00:49:05   versus using a modular computer

00:49:08   and Apple's history with that.

00:49:09   And I wrote that review

00:49:11   and I also wrote a piece for Macworld about it

00:49:13   and I wrote a piece for the Verge about it.

00:49:15   So I like, I wrote a lot of words about Apple's history

00:49:18   with modular Macs and then not making them

00:49:21   and with the iMac becoming kind of like the replacement

00:49:23   for modular Macs.

00:49:25   So another kind of essay about that.

00:49:28   And then an essay about the choices that you make

00:49:33   in terms of a laptop versus a desktop.

00:49:35   And do you hook a laptop up to the external display

00:49:39   instead of the Mac studio?

00:49:40   And like that's part of a, like, so in the end,

00:49:45   I would say it wasn't hard to write the review

00:49:47   because it was, although this product was unexpected,

00:49:52   its characteristics are not surprises, right?

00:49:57   And so that changes it.

00:49:58   It ends up being more about form over function

00:50:01   and the design choices for the Mac Studio

00:50:05   and what it means to have it on your desk

00:50:08   instead of in an all-in-one, stuff like that.

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00:52:17   So now we turn our attention then to the Apple Studio display, 27 inch display.

00:52:24   What are your, I want to get kind of like top level stuff, the looks, the stand, you

00:52:29   know the model you got is the regular model, right?

00:52:33   What are your overall thoughts?

00:52:34   I got nano texture, but yes, it's a standard stand.

00:52:37   Oh yeah.

00:52:38   Did you?

00:52:39   I'm sorry, but.

00:52:41   - I mean, I feel like I've already written

00:52:42   about nanotexture, it is what it is.

00:52:43   I wouldn't buy it, but then again,

00:52:45   I used to work in an office

00:52:46   where I had to have a window behind me

00:52:48   and I would have desperately wanted it for that office,

00:52:52   but my current office, I'm never gonna,

00:52:54   I don't have to put the window behind me,

00:52:55   so it's unnecessary, but it's nice.

00:52:58   I mean, it is your glare-free option

00:53:02   if you are in a place with glare,

00:53:03   but otherwise it's the standard,

00:53:05   you know, unadjustable stand kind of thing.

00:53:08   And I tried not to get too fussy about it

00:53:12   'cause I feel like the people who listen to this show

00:53:14   already know the story here,

00:53:16   but like the story here is it's an Apple display.

00:53:18   It is not an LG display.

00:53:20   The panel is very similar to the most recent 5K iMac panel

00:53:25   that's also the LG Ultrafine panel.

00:53:26   It's not the same.

00:53:27   I asked about that and because it's 600 nits,

00:53:32   it's like, it's not the same.

00:53:34   It's a brighter panel than that, but it looks very familiar.

00:53:38   Like in front of me, I couldn't tell the difference

00:53:41   between this and the iMac 5K and then the iMac Pro panels

00:53:44   that I had in front of me all this time.

00:53:46   I think the iMac 5K I originally had

00:53:48   didn't have the wide color gamut,

00:53:49   but the iMac Pro panel and this panel,

00:53:51   like it feels exactly the same.

00:53:54   The thing that the people like Upgradients will understand

00:53:58   is LG's monitor is not an Apple monitor, right?

00:54:02   It's not, it's okay, but this is fully Apple look and feel.

00:54:07   And I know it's like, there's no logo on it.

00:54:10   The black bezels are much thinner than the Nymax bezels

00:54:14   and they look really good.

00:54:17   It has the aluminum foot.

00:54:18   So it like, it is full on Apple design language

00:54:21   and not, it feels good.

00:54:24   It's not junky in any way.

00:54:27   And like, part of the context of some reviews

00:54:31   of this display is there are other displays.

00:54:36   And it's true, however, there aren't other displays

00:54:39   other than the ultra fine that really hit the resolution

00:54:42   that Apple wants for the Mac.

00:54:43   It turns out, turns out that Apple abandoning

00:54:48   the display market did not create a great influx

00:54:51   of displays to serve Mac users

00:54:53   the way they chose to be served.

00:54:54   Didn't happen.

00:54:56   It's just, we all know that.

00:54:57   And so I think it's pretty rich to review this monitor

00:55:01   and say there are other displays.

00:55:03   'cause the answer is really there are other display,

00:55:06   one, if you want what Apple wants from a display,

00:55:10   which is something like that 27-inch iMac,

00:55:13   not a curved 4K 30-inch display

00:55:16   that's way lower resolution than Apple would prefer

00:55:19   you use on a Mac.

00:55:20   And so you have always had those options,

00:55:23   but for the people who really wanted the Apple-like thing,

00:55:26   there was just the LG Ultrafine.

00:55:27   And this is much nicer than that in a lot of ways.

00:55:31   And so that's, I think it's important for some people.

00:55:36   Obviously it's not for others, but you can turn around

00:55:39   and bump into a podcast where the hosts are complaining

00:55:41   about the LG Ultrafine display and have been for years now.

00:55:46   And it's not that it is terrible,

00:55:48   but it's been the only option and there are things about it

00:55:51   that would make people pine for what would Apple do

00:55:53   if they made this display?

00:55:55   And here's your answer.

00:55:57   It's way more expensive, but it's nicer.

00:56:00   And are we surprised that that's the ultimate answer?

00:56:03   - I liked what Neil A. Patel said in his review,

00:56:06   which was kind of like,

00:56:08   there are people that these specific things

00:56:11   mean that this monitor is worth it.

00:56:13   And you kind of know you are one of those people already.

00:56:16   Like the idea of the resolution being just right

00:56:18   and that kind of stuff is like,

00:56:20   that really is a thing that is important to some people.

00:56:24   Like that, I am, I like that,

00:56:26   but I'm not one of those people.

00:56:27   Like I've used and I've been using an OG

00:56:30   display for I don't know best part of two years and I really like the display.

00:56:34   The problem I have is the unreliability of plugging the thing in and it doing

00:56:40   what I want and I do not expect to have this issue come three weeks from now or

00:56:47   whatever when I get mine right. My expectation is I will just plug it in

00:56:51   and it does exactly what I'm expecting it to do every single time. Where at the

00:56:54   moment it doesn't and it requires a lot of plugging and unplugging to get it to

00:56:58   work properly, you know?

00:56:59   - Yeah, no, I think that's it.

00:57:01   This is, and again, you know, look,

00:57:04   there are a lot of competition out there,

00:57:05   but it is, and I know we've talked about Apple's

00:57:09   whole desire of like, how many first party things

00:57:11   can we make?

00:57:12   'Cause we get you in the Apple store,

00:57:13   and then we upsell you on all these other things,

00:57:14   and they've all got Apple product margins,

00:57:16   and Apple makes a lot of money,

00:57:17   and there's a reason Apple makes a lot of money.

00:57:19   They do this sort of thing.

00:57:20   That said, there is also value in getting the Apple thing,

00:57:25   that Apple is built for its products.

00:57:28   Like there are people trying to use this with PCs and stuff

00:57:30   and yeah, it will work or some aspects of it will work.

00:57:34   But like, this is a display made by Apple

00:57:38   to be connected to Macs.

00:57:41   And that has value to a lot of people,

00:57:45   not necessarily to everyone.

00:57:46   Again, I have a friend, a friend of the show,

00:57:49   Scott McNulty, who's been on before.

00:57:51   - Hi Scott.

00:57:52   - Scott has a 5K iMac and a big curved fancy display.

00:57:57   And the 5K iMac, he doesn't even use, it's off on the side

00:58:00   'cause he uses the big curve fancy display.

00:58:02   And he bought a Mac studio 'cause he's like,

00:58:04   "All right, I can just hook it directly

00:58:06   to my big fancy display."

00:58:07   Right? Great, right?

00:58:09   Like if you have one of those displays and you like it,

00:58:12   you know, great.

00:58:13   But there is definitely an audience for,

00:58:16   "Oh, it's just a 27 inch display

00:58:18   like the ones we're familiar with."

00:58:19   And it's from Apple and it has been built to work

00:58:21   with all of Apple's products.

00:58:23   And they're, you know,

00:58:25   everybody's gonna have a different idea

00:58:27   of the value of that, but I can feel it

00:58:30   when it wasn't there, that there was a lot of feeling

00:58:33   of like, "Mm, wow, I have to compromise somewhere."

00:58:37   It would be a lot easier if I could spend

00:58:39   a little more money and just get an Apple display

00:58:42   that does it, 'cause it turns out only Apple

00:58:45   has our best interests at heart.

00:58:46   I mean, they also wanna sell us something

00:58:48   for a lot of money, but you get what I'm saying?

00:58:51   The rest of the display market is not like,

00:58:53   "But what about the Mac?"

00:58:54   They're just not.

00:58:56   Like, or if they are, they're doing it to the minimum amount,

00:58:59   like, because they're thinking about,

00:59:00   but what about gamers?

00:59:01   And what about people in offices with PCs?

00:59:04   And then, oh yeah, we should make sure,

00:59:05   does the Mac work with this?

00:59:06   It does great.

00:59:07   And that's fine, but it's really nice to have something

00:59:11   that is built for us.

00:59:13   It's made for us.

00:59:15   And when Apple does a display, that's what it is.

00:59:18   And that's why it costs more, but it's good to have it,

00:59:21   and I'm glad it exists.

00:59:23   So speaking of features for the Mac,

00:59:27   there's been quite a lot of brouhaha about the webcam

00:59:30   and maybe partly because of some of the decisions

00:59:35   that Apple's made around making it center stage,

00:59:37   that kind of stuff.

00:59:37   So there's been lots of reviews published by people

00:59:40   all over the place and there's been vastly varying results

00:59:44   on people's opinions of the quality of the webcam

00:59:47   inside of this display.

00:59:50   - Yeah, hell yeah.

00:59:50   - You seem to be pretty happy.

00:59:52   So not to tell tales out of school,

00:59:55   but like embargoed reviewers talk sometimes.

00:59:58   You see something weird and you're like,

00:59:59   "Okay, what did you see?"

01:00:00   - You wanna make sure you're seeing the same thing, right?

01:00:02   So you're not way off.

01:00:04   - Yeah, so I don't know if we're supposed to do that or not,

01:00:06   but it happens, right?

01:00:07   There's some talk that happens in the back channel.

01:00:10   And I had somebody back channel me and say,

01:00:14   "Are you seeing bad image quality with the studio display?"

01:00:17   And so here's the thing, I got the heads up about it.

01:00:21   If I had wanted to be running with the pack,

01:00:24   I could have put in verbiage about

01:00:27   questionable image quality, even if I didn't see it,

01:00:29   but I didn't see it.

01:00:32   And that 90 minute video I did with Dan Moore

01:00:35   in the day the embargo dropped is entirely, my side of it,

01:00:39   shot with the studio display camera.

01:00:42   And it looks fine.

01:00:44   So if I can't duplicate what they're seeing,

01:00:48   I can't report it.

01:00:50   I can't report what, because the cool kids saw it

01:00:54   and I didn't see it.

01:00:55   So there's a few options here.

01:00:57   One is hardware variants and I just got a good panel

01:01:01   or I got a good camera.

01:01:02   I don't think that's it.

01:01:04   Software variants, we all checked our firmware,

01:01:06   it's the same.

01:01:06   Okay, well, what is it?

01:01:08   I think this is a software problem.

01:01:13   I think it's, and Apple said that there's a bug

01:01:15   that they're fixing.

01:01:16   We'll see if that really fixes it or not,

01:01:18   but they did a little statement of like,

01:01:21   oh no, no, no, no, no.

01:01:22   It'll be fine folks, it'll be fine

01:01:24   just trying to do some damage control there.

01:01:26   We'll see if it actually is fine.

01:01:29   But I think two things are happening.

01:01:33   I think one is, I think it behaves differently

01:01:35   in different lighting conditions.

01:01:36   And I think that there are certain lighting conditions

01:01:37   that are better and certain that are worse.

01:01:39   And that is lighting and background lighting and foreground.

01:01:42   It may even be face detection that like my face is better

01:01:46   at being detected, I don't know.

01:01:51   But my spider sense is tingling,

01:01:55   that there's a problem going on in certain circumstances

01:02:00   and that I didn't have those circumstances.

01:02:02   Now, I'll be honest, I did not turn off all my lights

01:02:06   and close my blinds

01:02:07   and get in the worst situation possible.

01:02:09   I just use it at my desk

01:02:10   like I use every webcam that I've ever used

01:02:13   and compared it and it seemed fun.

01:02:16   So I think that's one of the things that's going on here.

01:02:17   - Yeah, 'cause I watched the video that you made.

01:02:19   - Looks fine, right?

01:02:20   - Your image is soft, but fine.

01:02:22   - Sure, it's fine.

01:02:23   - Yeah.

01:02:24   - So that's one thing that I think is happening

01:02:27   and that is real.

01:02:27   And even though I didn't have much of an experience with it,

01:02:30   I believe the other reviewers that it's an issue.

01:02:33   The other part is context.

01:02:35   And that is trickier

01:02:37   'cause that's about the eye of the beholder.

01:02:39   That is about the person doing the review.

01:02:42   My context is the iMac Pro webcam, which is a 1080 webcam.

01:02:50   It's fine.

01:02:52   And also as an iPad Pro user who has been using center stage

01:02:57   since it came out for weekly Zoom calls with Lauren's family

01:03:02   and weekly FaceTime calls with my mom.

01:03:06   So I've seen the same center stage camera

01:03:10   and center stage software at work on the iPad a lot.

01:03:13   So, first off, the center stage camera is kind of grainy

01:03:17   in certain circumstances.

01:03:19   It's a byproduct of the fact that they are taking

01:03:22   a big 12 megapixel image and they're cropping

01:03:24   and de-skewing it in order to make it seem like

01:03:27   there's the ghost camera man back there shooting you.

01:03:30   It's not always a great picture.

01:03:32   That's true.

01:03:33   That's been true all along.

01:03:36   And maybe I'm just so used to what a center stage camera

01:03:39   looks like that I'm not taken aback like some people are. And second is, what are you comparing

01:03:45   it to? I'm comparing it, in terms of context, I'm comparing it to the center stage camera.

01:03:49   I think a lot of them are comparing it to 4K webcams that are static, or I saw some

01:03:54   pictures that were still photos taken with the front and back cameras of iPhones. It's

01:03:59   like, well, okay, of course it's not better than that. But how does it compare? And I

01:04:06   put it up against center stage on my iPad Pro and I was like, I don't know, I think

01:04:09   that the studio display camera actually looks better than the center stage camera on my

01:04:13   iPad Pro in the same position. I think the iPad Pro is zoomed in a lot more and so it's

01:04:17   even more grainy, whereas the studio display, I think that the algorithm is a little different

01:04:22   and it's a little wider out. So, I don't know, my guess is you've got people who are familiar

01:04:30   with higher quality image capturing devices, some of which are webcams and some of which

01:04:35   or not, looking at a possibly degraded and certain lighting camera and saying, "This

01:04:41   camera is garbage." Whereas I have familiarity with center stage and I'm in a well-lit environment

01:04:46   and I look at it and go, "Yeah, that's exactly what I expected. It's center stage." And center

01:04:51   stage has other issues, right? It doesn't quite center you aggressively enough in my

01:04:58   opinion and I know that they're probably trying to prevent it from being this really queasy,

01:05:02   Like as we bob and move, the camera is endlessly tracking you because that would be unpleasant,

01:05:08   but I know there's an art to it and I feel like it leaves me, as the only person in the

01:05:13   frame, it leaves me off-center for a long time before figuring out that I'm not centered

01:05:20   and centering me and I think that that is a center stage problem they need to fix.

01:05:23   Do you think this could be, because I mean, my understanding is this is being powered

01:05:27   by the A13 chip which is found inside of the machine,

01:05:30   right, inside of the display.

01:05:32   - I assume so, I assume, we don't know,

01:05:36   but I assume what's happening is the A13

01:05:39   is doing all of this processing

01:05:41   and then just sending the picture out to the Mac.

01:05:43   And that's partially because there are Macs

01:05:45   that are compatible with this that are not Apple Silicon.

01:05:50   And so they wouldn't be able to process it

01:05:52   as well theoretically as the A13.

01:05:55   Although I did think that one option,

01:05:57   if you wanna make the quality better,

01:05:59   is to check and see if you have a superior chip

01:06:01   on the outboard side and just send it there

01:06:05   and have that doing it.

01:06:06   But they'd have to write software for it.

01:06:07   But it may be that iOS running inside the A13

01:06:11   in this monitor, 'cause it does run a version of iOS,

01:06:14   is doing it because they didn't have to write extra software

01:06:16   for the Mac to do it then.

01:06:17   Maybe that's the case, I don't know.

01:06:19   - But 'cause maybe the A13 is not powerful enough,

01:06:23   or it's just not as powerful as the other processes

01:06:26   that are running center stage on the devices.

01:06:28   - I don't know.

01:06:29   I think if you compare it to center stage on the iPad,

01:06:31   my opinion is that it's no different

01:06:33   than center stage on the iPad.

01:06:34   I don't think that's it.

01:06:36   I don't think it's like the M1 versus the A13

01:06:39   and it's inferior.

01:06:40   Maybe in certain circumstances,

01:06:42   the problem is maybe in certain circumstances it is

01:06:44   and I can't duplicate all the circumstances.

01:06:47   But the short version is, is there an issue with the webcams?

01:06:50   Like, I don't know.

01:06:51   Depends on your context.

01:06:53   depends on what you're expecting by it.

01:06:55   Apple says that they're gonna make software changes to it.

01:06:57   I wouldn't count on that.

01:06:59   If you wanna hold off and see what happens,

01:07:01   by all means do so.

01:07:03   In my circumstance, it's not been an issue.

01:07:07   And I am not, I mean, like if I want a really good webcam,

01:07:12   I will use a really good webcam.

01:07:16   And I think at the root of the complaints about it

01:07:18   that some reviewers have had is they,

01:07:21   what they want is a 4K static,

01:07:24   no panning and zooming center stage webcam

01:07:27   like they consider the state of the art

01:07:29   on other of webcams today, instead of what Apple did.

01:07:32   And I think, I don't think I agree

01:07:35   'cause I really like center stage

01:07:36   and I think that it is appropriate for a product like this

01:07:39   because you are moving around.

01:07:40   I mean, some people aren't, some people are.

01:07:43   I am moving around enough that I really like the idea

01:07:46   that this thing that's sitting on my desk can track me

01:07:49   as I'm talking to somebody, I think that's great.

01:07:51   Other people would say, well, no,

01:07:53   Apple has gotten too high on its center stage product.

01:07:57   And even though it doesn't look as good,

01:07:59   it's got this zooming feature that I don't care about.

01:08:02   And what I really want is a still really nice 4K webcam.

01:08:06   I think that's a legitimate argument to make,

01:08:08   even though I'm not sure I agree with it.

01:08:11   So yeah, and we'll see, there are bugs.

01:08:13   There are lots of bugs.

01:08:14   They're white listing video conferencing apps.

01:08:17   It's very clear that they put something in macOS

01:08:19   that basically says if it's these apps, turn it on.

01:08:22   Which they sort of did an iPad too, right?

01:08:25   Because the developers didn't know about this.

01:08:28   I'm sure there will be an API at some point.

01:08:31   You can control it with center stage and turn it on and off,

01:08:34   but there's very weird behavior there too.

01:08:36   I opened Photo Booth, an app that has not been touched

01:08:39   by an Apple engineer in who knows how long.

01:08:41   And it gave me this ridiculous, grainy, super close cropped,

01:08:46   way too high, like top of my head

01:08:49   and the wall behind me shot.

01:08:51   That is not the shot you get when you go to control center

01:08:55   and turn off center stage in Zoom.

01:08:58   That said, when you do go to control center

01:09:00   and turn off center stage in something like Zoom,

01:09:02   you do get a weirdly framed shot that is way too high up.

01:09:07   And it's clearly not what you actually would get

01:09:10   because it's actually cutting off stuff that was visible

01:09:12   in the center stage version.

01:09:13   That's a little lower down.

01:09:15   And I don't know why they do it that way.

01:09:18   And it's really dumb and you can't set it.

01:09:20   So when you turn center stage off,

01:09:22   you have to like tilt your monitor down

01:09:24   because it's too high, which I don't get that.

01:09:29   So I think that there are lots of issues with the camera,

01:09:32   but not the ones that the other people

01:09:34   are complaining about.

01:09:35   - Speaking about high, how would you get on

01:09:38   with the stand on this monitor if it was yours?

01:09:41   - I mean, I have an adjustable desk so I can survive.

01:09:44   I would change the height of everything else,

01:09:47   change the height of my keyboard tray

01:09:49   and change the height of my desk

01:09:50   and I would get it to work.

01:09:51   I don't think, I think that a lot of people

01:09:54   would find that it's too low.

01:09:56   I, again, places where I'm out of line

01:10:01   with a lot of other reviewers,

01:10:03   like this is an example where I know why Apple did it

01:10:08   and I appreciate that the adjustable version

01:10:10   is probably a very well engineered piece of kit.

01:10:14   That said, you should not have to pay,

01:10:18   I would say you should not have to pay extra

01:10:22   for good ergonomics that a good display

01:10:25   should be adjustable.

01:10:28   And that you certainly shouldn't have to pay $400

01:10:33   for it to be adjustable.

01:10:35   I think it's ridiculous.

01:10:36   So boo.

01:10:38   - I'll let you know just how ridiculous it is soon.

01:10:43   When mine--

01:10:43   - Yeah, I just, I don't like,

01:10:45   when the iMac came out, the M1 iMac,

01:10:47   I asked Apple, "Why is this not adjustable?"

01:10:49   And they said, "Blah, blah, blah, we did ergonomics."

01:10:51   - Well, it was on the show, right?

01:10:52   They told us that they tested it out.

01:10:55   - We did ergonomics and this is what our experts said

01:10:57   was the right height.

01:10:59   And I'm like, I don't know,

01:11:00   everybody I know puts these things on books or stands.

01:11:04   - I have mine on a stand, I have a stand for my iMac

01:11:06   that I'm looking at right now.

01:11:08   - Yeah, so I don't know.

01:11:10   I just, I believe as a matter of principle

01:11:15   that ergonomics is not a $400 upsell.

01:11:19   I think you should make an ergonomic display.

01:11:22   I think that ergonomics should be figured into it.

01:11:24   - I do too.

01:11:25   - And if you do need to do it as an upsell,

01:11:29   you should not make it as ludicrous a price

01:11:33   as that upsell is.

01:11:34   $400 for a thing to let it be a couple inches higher.

01:11:39   Like, come on.

01:11:40   - It's the problem that this is like Apple

01:11:43   kind of designing itself into a corner.

01:11:45   Like, I think they refuse to make a design

01:11:49   like other companies because the other companies,

01:11:52   they make things that aren't as attractive.

01:11:54   - Yeah, only the best.

01:11:55   They want a perfect, beautiful, well engineered

01:11:59   lifting display mount.

01:12:02   They do, and that's what they made.

01:12:04   and it required them to charge $400 for it.

01:12:06   And I get it, but it's very frustrating to me.

01:12:11   So you could also get the VESA mount version,

01:12:13   which doesn't cost any extra,

01:12:15   and then put it on a stand or arm of your choice

01:12:17   at the height that you want, and it's adjustable.

01:12:19   So that's the other way to go.

01:12:20   - And I'm pleased that they offer that though too, right?

01:12:22   Because it's like, well, then you can get it much cheaper

01:12:25   as an option and or you may already have the thing

01:12:28   like you do, right?

01:12:29   And like I have VESA arms that I was using before,

01:12:32   I have a VESA I'm using with the Dell monitor

01:12:34   that I'm using. If I wanted to, I could have gone with the VESA mount for the

01:12:39   studio display, but I was happy to pay the extra because I wanted that. I wanted

01:12:45   Apple's adjustable one because I think it looks nice and I want to have a little

01:12:49   bit of a better experience, a more free experience than the my VESA arms

01:12:54   allow for me. So we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. Is there enough I/O on this, on the

01:13:00   studio display do you think?

01:13:02   - I think it's a display and not an iMac.

01:13:04   I will admit that I had those thoughts, which is,

01:13:08   you know, it's got four ports on the back,

01:13:09   but there's just the upstream Thunderbolt

01:13:11   and then it's three USB-C.

01:13:13   - I do wish they were Thunderbolt, not USB-C.

01:13:16   - Yeah, and I get why they maybe can't be right now,

01:13:20   but I'm okay with it.

01:13:23   Clearly this is a room for improvement.

01:13:27   Like I said, I feel like most of the stuff

01:13:30   you're gonna attach to your computer

01:13:31   is gonna be attached to your computer.

01:13:33   But if you're using this with a laptop,

01:13:35   you're gonna wanna hang IO off the back.

01:13:38   And this precludes you hanging Thunderbolt off the back.

01:13:42   It only is gonna be USB-C off of the back of this thing.

01:13:46   So if you have a situation where you want to

01:13:49   have a one cable attach from a MacBook Pro to this display,

01:13:54   and you've got a Thunderbolt dock

01:13:55   or a Thunderbolt hard drive or whatever,

01:13:57   I don't think you can.

01:13:59   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that,

01:14:02   well, maybe you would go through the Thunderbolt dock

01:14:05   and then if it's got Thunderbolt out,

01:14:06   you would put that to the monitor, maybe that would work.

01:14:08   But like, it's complicated is what I'm saying.

01:14:11   And I wish that it was less complicated,

01:14:12   but I also kind of get it that in Mac studio terms,

01:14:16   it's easy 'cause the Mac studio has all the plugs

01:14:18   and then you don't worry about it.

01:14:19   But if you've got a MacBook Pro,

01:14:20   and I'm a big fan of this,

01:14:21   like the whole idea here is it charges your MacBook Pro

01:14:23   or your MacBook Air.

01:14:24   Like it doesn't matter, it'll charge your laptop

01:14:26   and provide IO and provide the display.

01:14:30   So you really do want to live the one cable lifestyle.

01:14:33   And that's going to lead to hubs and docks and things

01:14:37   probably because it's only got those three USB ports there.

01:14:42   - I have a CalDigit Thunderbolt dock that I use right now.

01:14:45   And I am intrigued to find out what happens

01:14:50   when I plug that into my display.

01:14:51   My hope will be that it will just function as USB-C.

01:14:55   'Cause I only have,

01:14:56   I don't have anything incredibly powerful.

01:14:58   I have a bunch of like USB-A things,

01:15:00   an ethernet cable, that kind of stuff.

01:15:02   My hope is it will work, but I will have to find out.

01:15:06   I don't know.

01:15:07   - Yeah, I feel like you, like the mysteries of Thunderbolt.

01:15:12   - And that's what I'm saying.

01:15:13   That's why I want it to be Thunderbolt in that display.

01:15:16   So I don't have to have this thought of like,

01:15:18   am I going to have to get a new dock?

01:15:20   If I do, what do I even get?

01:15:22   Because all docs seem to be Thunderbolt now and not USB-C.

01:15:25   I don't know what's going to happen

01:15:27   when I plug that thing in.

01:15:29   - Well, and it will accept USB-C as an input

01:15:32   because you can attach a Mac or an iPad Air to it

01:15:36   and it will use it.

01:15:38   So it's possible that even if you sent USB-C out

01:15:43   from a doc to the display, it would work.

01:15:46   But again, I don't know.

01:15:48   And it probably varies. - This is it.

01:15:48   I have no idea.

01:15:49   - And then I just really know what I'm gonna do

01:15:51   'cause I have a bunch of USB-A things that,

01:15:53   I guess I'll just have to get a USB-C to USB-A

01:15:58   like port thing, adapter thing, we'll find out.

01:16:01   Back to dongle town, but now monitor related.

01:16:04   Last thing I wanted to ask you about the speakers.

01:16:06   - I am gonna say about the speakers and the microphones,

01:16:10   exactly what I've said about them in the MacBook Pro,

01:16:12   which is, I think Apple is justifiably proud

01:16:15   of what they've done to put pretty good quality

01:16:18   speakers and microphones in a very small space,

01:16:21   in this case, in a display.

01:16:23   But also they've done this,

01:16:24   it's the same kind of engineering

01:16:25   that they've done for the MacBook Pro.

01:16:27   They are justifiably proud of that.

01:16:30   The microphones are okay.

01:16:33   They sound pretty good, although a little echoey,

01:16:36   but remember the microphones are far away

01:16:38   'cause you're sitting at a display,

01:16:39   you're not right up against,

01:16:40   like I'm right against my microphone here.

01:16:43   I'm touching it with my nose right now, right?

01:16:45   Like it's right here.

01:16:47   Display is far away.

01:16:48   So even a good microphone at that distance,

01:16:50   it's gonna be a challenge.

01:16:51   They've got the three microphones,

01:16:53   they've got the beam forming,

01:16:54   they're trying to make it sound okay.

01:16:55   And you know what?

01:16:56   For a video conference or something, it does sound okay.

01:16:58   It sounds pretty good.

01:17:00   Not podcast level good.

01:17:01   Although if you wanted to make it podcast level good,

01:17:04   what you'd do is you'd go all the way up to it

01:17:05   and be like, "Hello, I'm very close to the..."

01:17:07   And then it would probably sound great,

01:17:09   but be really awkward because you'd be

01:17:12   like putting your face against your monitor

01:17:14   and nobody wants to do that.

01:17:16   The speakers, similarly, are they good for monitors

01:17:21   that fit in a slim speaker?

01:17:23   Yes, they are.

01:17:24   They sound nice.

01:17:26   There's some stereo imaging going on there.

01:17:28   They talk about it being spatial audio.

01:17:30   I don't believe that really.

01:17:32   It's just a fancy word for calculating

01:17:35   the stereo images on the fly.

01:17:38   It's fine.

01:17:40   My problem is that Apple then talks about everything

01:17:42   as being studio quality and amazing.

01:17:44   And like, I think it is amazing engineering for what it is, but that said,

01:17:50   like it is not a replacement for better speakers or headphones.

01:17:52   Um, I use my, since I got rid of the, um, iPod Hi-Fi as my external speakers,

01:18:01   I've been using the iMac pro internal speakers to edit podcasts.

01:18:07   And so I edited a podcast using the studio display internal speakers instead.

01:18:13   I don't think they're as good, honestly,

01:18:16   I don't think they're as good as the iMac Pro speakers.

01:18:18   And the iMac Pro speakers were pretty good

01:18:20   because they had space in the case.

01:18:21   But even if they're as good,

01:18:25   like, I don't know, they are what they are.

01:18:27   Don't, I think Apple lets the hype run away

01:18:31   from them a little bit,

01:18:32   and they translate amazing for where they are,

01:18:36   amazing for the small space they're inside,

01:18:38   to just generally amazing.

01:18:41   And they're not just generally amazing.

01:18:43   They're utilitarian.

01:18:45   If you listen to music on your computer's built-in sound now,

01:18:50   you can do that on this and it'll be fine.

01:18:53   But if you're led to believe by Apple's marketing that,

01:18:56   oh, throw away your microphones,

01:18:57   throw away your external speakers,

01:18:59   all you'll ever need is the stuff that's in the cinema

01:19:01   or the studio display.

01:19:03   Nah, no, that's not what it is.

01:19:06   So it's fine.

01:19:07   It did not blow me away, but it's good for what it is.

01:19:12   And in such a small space, it is impressive.

01:19:15   That's it.

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01:21:17   business our thanks to memberful for their support of this show and relay fm let's finish up today

01:21:23   with some hashtag ask upgrade questions first one today comes from cheese who asks can external

01:21:33   speakers be attached to an Apple Studio display via the USB-C connection in order to maintain

01:21:40   a single cable connection to my M1 Pro MacBook Pro.

01:21:45   Is this possible?

01:21:46   Oh, new audio device detected.

01:21:49   Okay, so you're trying it right now.

01:21:53   Yeah.

01:21:55   And if I go to System Preferences, Sound, I now have Studio Display Speakers as an output

01:22:02   and USB-C to 3.5 millimeter headphone jack adapter

01:22:06   as an output.

01:22:08   - Wow.

01:22:08   - So, yes is the answer.

01:22:11   Yes, you plug a USB-C audio adapter

01:22:15   and it just shows up as a USB-C audio adapter

01:22:18   and you can choose it as an output.

01:22:20   - Great.

01:22:21   - That's it.

01:22:22   - I guess I don't know if USB-C powered speakers exist

01:22:25   but I guess if they do, it will work.

01:22:26   But the idea being that yes, it's possible.

01:22:29   You can plug USB-C something to something.

01:22:31   - Yeah, you just use this.

01:22:32   I mean, I'm using the little, the one I use for my iPad Pro,

01:22:35   the little Apple USB-C to headphone jack adapter.

01:22:39   And at that point you take powered speakers

01:22:41   and a headphone jack, you know,

01:22:43   one of those cables and run it and it'll do that.

01:22:46   So yes, you should be able to lead the one chord lifestyle

01:22:49   for your speakers too.

01:22:50   But remember, there's only three back there, so we'll see.

01:22:54   But yeah, that works.

01:22:55   So that was fun.

01:22:56   And I've been meaning to check that out.

01:22:58   So now we know.

01:23:00   - Morkie would like to know,

01:23:01   Did either of you play instruments and did one of you compose and play the theme song

01:23:05   for upgrade?

01:23:06   So this is Morkie from Morkie and Mind, I think.

01:23:08   I knew you were gonna do it.

01:23:11   Every time.

01:23:12   This is a different person.

01:23:14   Mork and Morkie are different?

01:23:16   Yes, I think so.

01:23:18   We have someone who writes in under the name Mork.

01:23:21   Yes, this is not them?

01:23:22   I don't think this is the same person because this person is Morkie.

01:23:26   Is this Morkie Mork and the Fonky Bonch?

01:23:29   Yes, that's it, you nailed it.

01:23:30   who it is? Okay. What was the question? Do either of you play instruments? One. Did one

01:23:39   of you compose and play the theme song? Two. Alright, take the second one first. Theme

01:23:43   song of Upgrade is composed and played entirely by Christopher Breen. It's a Breen theme.

01:23:50   It's a Breen theme. You can go to ChrisBreen.com and he's got, I think he even has them all

01:23:55   for download there, so you can do that. Chris works at Apple now. If you want to pretend

01:23:59   be upgrade, you can do that. Sure, I guess. Chris works at Apple now, so he can't write

01:24:03   about tech anymore, but he still composes theme songs from time to time, and he composed

01:24:07   the upgrade theme before—actually, when he was at Macworld still, so before he was

01:24:11   behind the rainbow curtain, he was able to do that for me, and a bunch of my other—the

01:24:17   incomparable theme is a Breen theme, there are a bunch of Breen themes out there. But

01:24:22   yeah, that's that. Do either of us play instruments? I took piano lessons in school,

01:24:29   and, or when I was in school,

01:24:33   and I can very poorly play the piano.

01:24:37   That didn't stop me from,

01:24:39   there are a bunch of robot or not theme songs,

01:24:41   not the main one, but there are like three alternate robot

01:24:44   or not theme songs that come up every now and then

01:24:45   that were performed by me,

01:24:47   but that's a lot of, I've got a USB piano keyboard,

01:24:52   and there's also a lot of logic loops involved in those,

01:24:57   but that's my, so that's my story.

01:24:58   but I wouldn't say I play any instrument competently.

01:25:01   - I play no instruments.

01:25:02   I only included this question because I wanted to point out

01:25:05   that many upgrade-eds noticed the theme song difference

01:25:10   for last episode because Jason, for some reason,

01:25:13   decides that every time he edits the show,

01:25:16   he plays the alternate version of the--

01:25:18   - Not every time, just sometimes.

01:25:20   - Most of the time, I think, when you edit.

01:25:22   You use the alternate version.

01:25:23   - It's an Easter egg.

01:25:24   It's a little Easter egg.

01:25:25   - And the irony is that I asked Chris to change it

01:25:29   from the synth to the guitar.

01:25:30   - This is how I remember it,

01:25:31   'cause this is what annoys me about this every time,

01:25:33   is people like, "Yay, Jason's music."

01:25:36   It's like, "No, I liked this one

01:25:39   and Jason changed it initially."

01:25:41   I think episode one may have used this theme

01:25:46   and then it was changed.

01:25:47   Or there was the synth version

01:25:49   and then Jason wanted the more guitar focused version

01:25:52   which became the upgrade theme.

01:25:54   And then everyone's like, "Oh, down with Myke.

01:25:56   He plays the bad song.

01:25:58   Jason plays good songs."

01:25:59   I'm like, "Myke wanted this one."

01:26:01   - But it's the fact that it's rare in an Easter egg

01:26:04   that makes it more special.

01:26:05   - If it was the other way around,

01:26:06   everyone would be like, "Hell yeah,

01:26:07   rocking out with Jason."

01:26:09   - Well, Myke, I'm just gonna say this.

01:26:11   Next episode is episode 400.

01:26:13   We could just decide to use the synth version

01:26:16   for 100 episodes or something if you wanted to.

01:26:19   Just switch.

01:26:21   - And you know what now though?

01:26:21   I don't think I could.

01:26:23   I think it so many episodes it would be weird for me now like it's just ingrained in my

01:26:27   head you know.

01:26:28   We'll keep it it's it's a special just like we have the upgrade draft theme and the holiday

01:26:33   theme.

01:26:34   We have the holiday music, the summer of fun song.

01:26:35   Summer of fun.

01:26:36   I just wanted to get it on record.

01:26:37   This is another alternate.

01:26:38   Okay this isn't like Jason saving us he's finally using the synth version which is what

01:26:43   some upgrade-ians treat it as you know they like look forward to when I'm away so they

01:26:48   get the good music but I just want to make it none like Myke isn't keeping that good

01:26:51   musical where he is now because Jason just now I'm keeping it from you from now.

01:26:56   Down with Myke again.

01:26:58   Now you can say down with Myke because Myke has made the decision that the old theme stays

01:27:03   but I just want to tell the truth from the past you know.

01:27:07   People just like that it's different although I did appreciate listening to Brian on Twitter

01:27:11   saying "woo it's the good intro" or something like that and I was like mmm.

01:27:17   Honestly it was Brian's tweet that set off this raging.

01:27:20   - Yes, yeah.

01:27:21   It's just different, it's a little Easter egg, it's fun.

01:27:25   That's all.

01:27:26   I thought about not doing it in fact last time,

01:27:28   but then I did it, so.

01:27:29   (laughing)

01:27:30   - It's like a smoke signal, you know?

01:27:32   It's like an if you know, you know kind of thing.

01:27:33   - It's special.

01:27:35   - Yeah.

01:27:36   - JJ Aparo asks, "Would you pay extra

01:27:39   for a colorful MacBook?"

01:27:40   So if Apple made you pay more for colors,

01:27:44   the colors that we desperately want, would you pay it?

01:27:47   Similarly, how you used to have to pay extra

01:27:50   if you wanted a black MacBook.

01:27:52   - Yeah.

01:27:53   Yeah, I was thinking about like how car makers will say,

01:27:54   we'll give you a boring color,

01:27:55   but you can pay a thousand dollars more

01:27:57   and get an interesting color, that kind of thing.

01:27:59   - I wouldn't pay a thousand.

01:28:02   I wouldn't do that.

01:28:03   - For a more interesting car?

01:28:04   - For a more interesting color on a MacBook.

01:28:07   - No, that I wouldn't.

01:28:09   MacBook Air 999 in blue, 1999.

01:28:12   Wow, Apple are geniuses.

01:28:14   How did they come up with that one?

01:28:15   Would I pay extra?

01:28:16   Well, I'll say I had a black MacBook.

01:28:19   - There you go.

01:28:20   Although my business bought it for me, but I wanted it.

01:28:23   - I liked the white one.

01:28:25   I had the white one.

01:28:26   I liked the white one.

01:28:27   - I love the black MacBook.

01:28:28   That was great.

01:28:29   Would I pay extra?

01:28:30   Yeah, probably. - I would too.

01:28:32   - It would just about what though?

01:28:35   Like would I pay $50 more or $100 more?

01:28:37   Maybe.

01:28:39   Depends.

01:28:39   It would have to be good.

01:28:40   It would have to not be like a very vaguely colorful.

01:28:42   It would need to be really colorful.

01:28:44   That said, I don't think that they will make people

01:28:45   pay extra.

01:28:46   I think like the iMac,

01:28:48   the MacBook Air is gonna come out in colors

01:28:50   and you just pick.

01:28:51   - I think JJ Apura just wanted to be like,

01:28:53   we put our money where our mouths are kind of situation.

01:28:56   - Riddle me this.

01:28:57   - Riddle me this Batman.

01:28:58   Chris wants to know,

01:29:00   do you think in an Apple lab somewhere,

01:29:03   there is an iPad pro that runs Mac OS Monterey?

01:29:07   I mean, it's gotta be right?

01:29:09   I mean.

01:29:10   - Maybe I'll tell you this.

01:29:12   I am, I know in fact,

01:29:16   that when in the run up to Apple Silicon,

01:29:19   there were iPads running macOS

01:29:21   because they were test systems before they did the DTK.

01:29:26   And like, you got an iPad with an A12X,

01:29:30   you can run macOS on it.

01:29:31   So like, yeah, yeah, probably.

01:29:35   I don't know if it means anything, but I mean, probably,

01:29:38   or truthfully, there's probably like something

01:29:40   that's kind of like an iPad

01:29:42   that's got a macOS version attached to it somewhere.

01:29:44   It may not be Monterey, it may not be current, who knows?

01:29:48   but clearly they can and I'm sure inside Apple they do.

01:29:52   - There was probably some MacBook Airs running iOS

01:29:55   when they were building the Magic Keyboard, right?

01:29:58   - Could be.

01:29:59   - You know, like just- - Yeah, that's a great example.

01:30:00   Like why don't we load this on a Mac

01:30:02   that's already got the keyboard and track pad attached

01:30:04   so that we can-

01:30:05   - Just test the software or it like-

01:30:07   - Maybe, although maybe they just use the Bluetooth,

01:30:10   but who knows?

01:30:11   Yeah, but I think I'm sure historically that has happened.

01:30:14   I know it for a fact that that happened,

01:30:16   but is it happening now?

01:30:19   I mean, who can say?

01:30:21   It certainly could be,

01:30:22   it would depend on what the project was

01:30:23   and why they were doing it that way.

01:30:25   But I don't think it says anything

01:30:28   about whether they're gonna make iPads run Mac OS

01:30:31   or anything.

01:30:32   - And finally today, Steve wants to know,

01:30:33   does the white LED on the front of the Mac studio

01:30:36   have the pulsing sleep effect?

01:30:37   Does it do anything?

01:30:38   - No, it doesn't.

01:30:40   It's quite disappointing.

01:30:41   It just is there and is on.

01:30:44   If you have problems in booting,

01:30:46   There was a YouTube video I watched today

01:30:47   where it actually will blink out SOS

01:30:50   if it has a problem, which is pretty funny.

01:30:54   And if you, in certain circumstances,

01:30:56   it will blink out SOS with an amber color

01:30:58   instead of the white, which is also pretty funny.

01:31:01   So there's probably all sorts of other wild things

01:31:03   that it can do, but I put this to sleep anyway,

01:31:07   and it didn't do anything except keep the light on.

01:31:09   So, sorry.

01:31:10   - I keep the light on for you.

01:31:12   That's what it says.

01:31:12   - It would be nice if it did that.

01:31:13   I love that pulsating a little sleep breathing thing.

01:31:15   - Yeah, yeah.

01:31:17   - I think it was disturbing.

01:31:18   Honestly though, like in a dark room, it was disturbing

01:31:21   'cause you'd be laying there in the dark

01:31:23   and everything is, there's like this pulsating light

01:31:25   on the wall.

01:31:26   I didn't like that. - Here's the thing.

01:31:27   Here's the thing.

01:31:28   I have the nostalgia for this.

01:31:30   Ultimately, I don't like my computer

01:31:34   anthropomorphizing itself.

01:31:37   - Yeah, also drawing attention to itself

01:31:38   when it's in a mode where it doesn't want your attention.

01:31:41   - Yeah, but just in general, I don't need to ever think

01:31:45   that my computer is breathing, like I'm good.

01:31:48   I'm good, you know?

01:31:51   - Hello Myke.

01:31:53   - Help me.

01:31:53   Like you know what I'm saying?

01:31:56   Help.

01:31:57   Paul Mack Studio, blinking out the app.

01:32:00   I'm gonna be thinking,

01:32:01   I'm gonna be giggling to myself about that all day now.

01:32:03   There's just something very funny about that.

01:32:05   I guess the idea being that because it has no screen, right?

01:32:09   That it needs to be able to communicate some error messages.

01:32:12   - Exactly.

01:32:13   but they're just funny to me. - So it doesn't buy

01:32:14   a Morse code apparently.

01:32:15   - But I love that it has two different types of Morse code

01:32:18   that it can do.

01:32:19   - Yeah, oh yeah, there's the words where it's confused

01:32:23   and then where it's actively angry.

01:32:24   - Oh dear.

01:32:27   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer

01:32:30   on the show, just send out a tweet with the #AskUpgrade

01:32:32   or use question mark ask upgrade

01:32:34   in the Real AFM members Discord that you get access to.

01:32:37   If you sign up for Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com

01:32:40   and you will get yourself a special feed.

01:32:42   In that feed, you will get longer ad-free versions of every single episode of Upgrade.

01:32:49   What an incredible thing.

01:32:50   And I'll just say, you get the back catalogue of those too, going all the way back to when

01:32:54   we started this like two years ago nearly now.

01:32:57   So you can go back and listen to a ton of great stuff.

01:33:00   Like there's lots of very fun content in there.

01:33:02   So it's available to you.

01:33:04   And you also get to support the show as well.

01:33:06   I mean, it's a win-win-win.

01:33:07   That's what we call it around here.

01:33:09   But thank you also to our sponsors for this week's episode,

01:33:11   Membrful, DoorDash, and Squarespace.

01:33:15   If you would like to find Jason online,

01:33:16   you go to sixcolors.com.

01:33:18   I recommend that people check out the video

01:33:20   that Jason did with Dan Morin, kind of doing some hands-on.

01:33:25   That was a great little live stream

01:33:26   of a bunch of listener participation.

01:33:28   It was really fun.

01:33:28   - It was your idea for us to do the post embargo drop video.

01:33:32   And I think it worked great.

01:33:33   I think it was a lot of fun.

01:33:34   And we went for 90 minutes,

01:33:35   which is way longer than I thought.

01:33:37   But yeah, it's like a podcast with--

01:33:38   - That's like a full on podcast, that thing.

01:33:40   I'll tell you that.

01:33:41   Speaking of which, I would actually like to mention

01:33:44   something new that I'm doing.

01:33:46   If you are a Formula One fan, I now have,

01:33:48   I can't, I genuinely cannot believe I might

01:33:51   host a sports podcast now, but I do.

01:33:53   - I know, right?

01:33:55   - It's called The Back Markers,

01:33:56   and I'm hosting it with Austin Evans,

01:33:57   because me and Austin have been working on a show

01:33:59   called The Test Drivers for the last couple of years,

01:34:01   it's focused on tech, but ultimately,

01:34:03   we just want to talk about Formula One.

01:34:04   So, now we do.

01:34:06   And something that we're doing differently with this

01:34:08   is there is a video version of the show.

01:34:09   We stream live as soon as we can

01:34:12   after each Formula One race has finished,

01:34:14   and we do video.

01:34:16   There is an audio version at Relay FM,

01:34:17   but we also have a YouTube channel,

01:34:19   and we're putting the video up there,

01:34:21   and it also is gonna stay there afterwards,

01:34:23   so you can consume it however you would choose,

01:34:25   video and audio.

01:34:26   And I'm enjoying a new challenge,

01:34:29   like the idea of making a video podcast

01:34:31   and how to make that good

01:34:34   whilst also making the audio podcast good.

01:34:36   It's like an interesting tightrope to walk, which I'm enjoying.

01:34:40   Maybe learning some new skills after being in this game for so long.

01:34:44   So if you are a Formula One fan, new or old, check it out.

01:34:47   We are building this show primarily for new fans.

01:34:50   Me and Austin are new fans and we're making a Formula One podcast for new fans.

01:34:54   Part of this was because the shows I was listening to, there was just too much built in knowledge.

01:34:59   The hosts and it was hard for me to follow some of the stuff.

01:35:02   So, you know, people that have been watching it for decades,

01:35:05   like they have a lot of inbuilt knowledge that I didn't.

01:35:09   So that's-

01:35:09   - And get ready for Saturday morning,

01:35:13   Friday night baseball, my new podcast

01:35:15   in which I talk about the Apple TV broadcast

01:35:17   from the night before of Friday night baseball.

01:35:21   Not existing ever.

01:35:23   You know, for a big sports fan,

01:35:25   I don't do a sports podcast and I'm okay with that.

01:35:27   - Yeah, I mean, there are lots of things I don't

01:35:30   and we'll never do podcasts about,

01:35:32   but this one felt just right.

01:35:34   We were talking about it more and more on the test drivers.

01:35:37   So it was kind of like,

01:35:38   let's just actually make the thing

01:35:39   that we really want to make, which is the show.

01:35:42   So we're doing it now.

01:35:43   And we're doing it every time there's a race.

01:35:45   If there's no race, there's no show.

01:35:46   So it's kind of an interesting format for me.

01:35:50   So I'm looking forward to it.

01:35:52   So you can go check it out.

01:35:54   The YouTube channel, go to backmarkers.live

01:35:56   and you'll find it.

01:35:57   And then you'll find Backmarkers on the RealLife M website

01:35:59   and I'll put links to those in the show notes.

01:36:01   - Before we say goodbye,

01:36:02   can I ask you a couple of questions about Formula One?

01:36:04   - Yeah.

01:36:04   - F1, I assume that it begins by a ceremonial,

01:36:08   like rolling of a tire or something down the road, right?

01:36:11   - I mean, yeah. - Sort of like how baseball

01:36:12   rolls the baseballs out from center field.

01:36:13   - They let all the wheels out

01:36:15   and then the teams have to catch them.

01:36:16   And then depending on who catches the best wheels,

01:36:18   they have got the best chance of winning.

01:36:21   - Okay, that's good.

01:36:22   And then my next question is,

01:36:23   I assume the way it works is that they're driving around

01:36:25   a city looking for the F and there's only one.

01:36:28   - There's only one F.

01:36:29   - And when they get it, it's like the snitch,

01:36:31   when they get it, then they can return to base.

01:36:33   - It's the immediate win.

01:36:34   There is a finish line,

01:36:35   but if you're able to catch the F, you win.

01:36:38   - Okay, good.

01:36:39   This sounds great.

01:36:40   I'll check it out.

01:36:41   - You're gonna love it.

01:36:42   Like this is your sport, Jason, you know?

01:36:44   It's got all of your favorite moments.

01:36:44   - Gotta find that F.

01:36:46   - Someone's gonna find it.

01:36:47   - There's only one.

01:36:48   - One F.

01:36:50   There's only one F, and then you find it, you are F1.

01:36:52   And then the, actually win the entire season.

01:36:54   You don't just win a race.

01:36:55   - Wow.

01:36:56   - The season can end after two weeks

01:36:58   someone finds the F. That's right. That's part of the O-ishal rules because there's

01:37:03   no F. No Fs in it. Or Mila 1 until they find the F and then... So if you want to find out

01:37:10   the actual real rules, which are obviously what we just talked about, you can go and

01:37:14   check out the backmarkers. And if you have a passing interest in Formula One, maybe you

01:37:19   haven't tried it yet, watch Drive to Survive, the Netflix documentary. That's what turned

01:37:23   me into a big Formula One fan like many others, so it's a great onboarding. And then the backmarker

01:37:28   will be there for you when you're ready for it. If you want to find the show notes for this week,

01:37:32   find them in your podcast app of choice or at relay.fm/upgrades/399. We're at 400 next week,

01:37:38   which means we are going to be reviewing our predictions from 100 episodes ago. So that's

01:37:43   going to be a fun time for everyone. And you want to find Jason in the meantime. He's @jasonel. I am

01:37:49   @imike. I am Y-K-E. And we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell.

01:37:54   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:38:03   [