398: I Thought About the Ultra, Then I Laughed


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:12   For Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 398, brought to you this week by Bombas, New Relic, and Memberful.

00:00:18   I'm Jason Snell, and I don't usually read the introduction of Upgrade because Myke Hurley does it.

00:00:22   Myke is in transit, he is caught between the moon and New York City.

00:00:26   Actually, he's caught between Memphis and London.

00:00:30   It's Arthur who's caught between the moon and New York City.

00:00:32   Anyway, old reference lost on younger listeners.

00:00:34   I brought in John Siracusa to join me because he's not on enough podcasts, I thought, and

00:00:40   this is a big week for MaxStop.

00:00:42   So John is our special guest co-host this week.

00:00:46   John, hello.

00:00:47   Yeah, you brought me on to be the co-host and also to be able to hear that song in my

00:00:51   head as soon as you made the reference.

00:00:52   I know.

00:00:53   I know it's crazy, but it's true.

00:00:55   something like Christopher Cross. It's yacht rock, people. It used to be just uncool music

00:01:00   back when it came out, but now it's yacht rock, and my daughter likes it because there's

00:01:05   just a little bit of irony, but the irony breaks down and then you're just listening

00:01:09   to soft, easy listening rock from the 70s and 80s. It's powerful what labels can do.

00:01:16   They can take that unusable old soft rock and you slap a label that says "yacht rock"

00:01:23   it and people are like what I like yachts let's do this it's amazing. It's a 20-year cycle of

00:01:27   nostalgia because that was like from the 80s and the 80s or 20 years ago makes perfect sense. Yeah

00:01:31   it yeah 20 years you drop a decade like Merlin says perfect or two it's perfect I had the

00:01:38   shocking realization that we're coming up to the 30th anniversary of my college graduation

00:01:42   oh man no just no but that's okay we're also coming up to my daughter's college graduation

00:01:50   in a year so I guess it all worked out. Let's do a #SNELtalk question even though

00:01:58   Myke's not here to ask it. I thought this was a almost like a little miniature robot or not,

00:02:03   a podcast that Jon and I do together that's every other Monday on the Incomparable. You should check

00:02:07   it out. It's not just about robots. It's about all sorts of stuff. It's fun. The last batch was

00:02:12   really good, I thought. I mean like they're all good but the last batch was kind of going into

00:02:18   to unexpected areas and they were all a little longer.

00:02:21   It was a lot of fun.

00:02:21   Anyway, Jon, this question comes from listener Andrew

00:02:24   who says, "Do you pronounce it Reed receipts

00:02:26   or Red receipts?"

00:02:27   - Do I?

00:02:30   Is this, this thing is phrased as, do you pronounce it?

00:02:34   Not asking how should it be pronounced

00:02:36   or what is the proper pronunciation

00:02:37   or what is the correct pronunciation.

00:02:39   Yeah, we have a stupid language where we've got words

00:02:42   that not only sound the same

00:02:44   but sometimes they're also spelled the same.

00:02:45   Is there a word for that?

00:02:46   Words that are, you know, homonyms sound the same, right?

00:02:48   - Yeah. - Symptoms mean the same,

00:02:49   but what about when they're spelled the same

00:02:53   and sound the same, but mean different?

00:02:54   That seems like there should be a third word for that.

00:02:56   There probably is.

00:02:57   - Right, like lead and led is a good example,

00:03:00   where there's L-E-A-D can be lead or led,

00:03:02   but led like the element,

00:03:04   not led like the other form of lead, which would be L-E-D.

00:03:08   - Yep.

00:03:09   - Although people sometimes spell it L-E-A-D,

00:03:11   but it's, yeah, I'm sure that there's, are those homophones?

00:03:14   I don't think they are.

00:03:15   their identical spellings with different pronunciations?

00:03:18   - Anyway, in this case, what I say most often

00:03:24   when I have occasion to speak this out loud to someone,

00:03:27   usually when telling them about settings on their iPhone,

00:03:30   I think I generally go with the path

00:03:33   of least tongue resistance,

00:03:35   which is to use the long E in both words

00:03:38   and say read receipts,

00:03:39   because read receipts is a little bit rural juror,

00:03:42   you know what I mean?

00:03:43   Like just slightly different E sound

00:03:44   with two words that both start with R right next to each other, but I also think that

00:03:48   I flip-flop on that depending on my mood or, you know, who I'm talking to or whatever.

00:03:54   So I think I'm all over the map, but read receipts, which makes less sense than read

00:03:59   receipts, I acknowledge that, but I think someone would have to sort of, you know, go

00:04:03   into some sort of investigation to figure out who was the first person to use this term

00:04:08   and can we find anyone who's still alive who remembers what they intended it to say back

00:04:13   - Correct. - And then,

00:04:14   not that that matters that much,

00:04:15   but at least then you'd say it was originally this,

00:04:17   but I think it's all over the place now.

00:04:20   I think there is no consensus,

00:04:22   and I think it would be a pretty tight race

00:04:24   if you sort of surveyed the entire planet about this.

00:04:27   - I, by the way, I think, believe it or not,

00:04:30   the old school word homonym,

00:04:31   which we were all taught as kids,

00:04:33   and then they said, "No, no, it's homophone."

00:04:34   It sounds like homophone is the word sound the same.

00:04:37   There's homograph, which is that they're spelled the same,

00:04:40   but they're different, and then homonym,

00:04:42   it seems probably means that they differ

00:04:46   in pronunciation and meaning,

00:04:47   even though that they're spelled the same,

00:04:48   which is what this is.

00:04:49   I say read receipts too.

00:04:51   - No, I said read receipts. - I mean, read receipts.

00:04:54   I don't say, see, no, it's confused me now.

00:04:57   I call it read receipts because the idea is

00:05:01   it is a receipt of if it was read-

00:05:05   - Did Jason read this? - Oh, God.

00:05:07   - I get a receipt for when Jason, did Jason read this?

00:05:10   Then I get the answer.

00:05:11   -You got to be in the right tense.

00:05:13   Otherwise, it is broken 'cause it's "Has Jason read this?"

00:05:16   But that's not how -- It's a reading status.

00:05:20   And so that's why I pronounce it as "read receipts,"

00:05:22   is 'cause it's a reading status.

00:05:24   -But "read receipts" makes more sense

00:05:26   because it's a receipt about whether something has been read.

00:05:29   -Which means it's in past tense.

00:05:30   -Yeah. -But I don't say that.

00:05:33   I feel it, but I don't say it.

00:05:37   -The point is, the setting should be off.

00:05:39   -Mine's on, by the way. Mine's on.

00:05:41   - That's madness.

00:05:42   - Mm-hmm.

00:05:43   - You're giving too much of yourself.

00:05:45   - So thank you to Andrew.

00:05:46   If you will have a Snell Talk question,

00:05:48   just, I don't know how, Myke tells you how.

00:05:51   It's #SnellTalk on Twitter,

00:05:52   and I think it's question mark Snell Talk

00:05:54   in the Relay FM Discord.

00:05:56   - Just send email to robot@incompetent.com.

00:05:57   - Whisper into a coconut and throw it in the ocean,

00:06:00   and the birds will find it and whisper it in my ear.

00:06:03   That's how it works, something like that.

00:06:04   I've got some follow-up.

00:06:06   I know you like follow-up on podcasts, Jon.

00:06:08   - Mm-hmm.

00:06:08   - I do too.

00:06:09   That's why we do it on this show.

00:06:11   'Cause I hosted the "Incomparable"

00:06:14   for like many hundreds of episodes

00:06:16   and realized I could never have follow-up on it,

00:06:18   but I can have follow-up here.

00:06:19   - In the "Incomparable," you have full follow-up episodes.

00:06:22   - Well, that's the only way to do it though.

00:06:24   But you can't have like a letter commenting

00:06:25   on the previous week

00:06:26   'cause things get recorded out of sequence.

00:06:28   - There's no continuity.

00:06:29   - The same people aren't on every week.

00:06:31   But we can follow up, yeah, whole episodes, in fact.

00:06:33   Especially if I have forgotten that we already did it.

00:06:35   'Cause after 600 episodes, that's really easy to do.

00:06:38   I want to go back to what we've been calling the rumor roundup, just like little bits here

00:06:42   and there.

00:06:44   Things Bing Qiquo has been reporting about.

00:06:46   He's on Twitter now about what's coming up.

00:06:51   And there was a report recently that said the base model iPhones for this fall, the

00:06:56   iPhone 14, the base models will just have the A15 again.

00:07:00   That only the iPhone Pro models will get the A16 and they'll keep the A15 in the lower

00:07:06   and models, which I read this and I thought, or read this, I don't know, and thought this

00:07:14   actually kind of makes sense and that if they were going to do this eventually, they need

00:07:18   to pick a year where they hold one of the phones steady and then after that they can

00:07:23   keep them in lockstep again. So this doesn't sound that surprising to me that they would

00:07:27   do that and that they would create more differentiation between the iPhone, it sounds like it's going

00:07:33   to be iPhone 14 and 14 Max and then 14 Pro and 14 Pro Max and then the mini is

00:07:39   gonna is gonna become... It's a good thing Apple hasn't confused any of their

00:07:43   naming by introducing any other new products that use the Pro and Max

00:07:46   suffixes in a totally different way. iPhone Ultra coming soon I guess. So what

00:07:53   do you think about about splitting the iPhones this way? I mean it's kind of a

00:07:57   bummer that they didn't make this decision before they shipped a bunch of

00:08:01   years of phones where the pro and non pros have the same system on chip in them because

00:08:08   you know from a consumer's perspective for the most part this is a downgrade from what

00:08:12   we have now it's been exciting these past few years to say you don't need to get an

00:08:17   iPhone pro and sue just get the regular iPhone 12 or just get the regular iPhone 13 don't

00:08:24   worry it's got the same system on a chip it's fine the parts that are missing are parts

00:08:28   you don't care about, right?

00:08:30   It just made the decision so much easier.

00:08:33   And not just because people are like, "Oh, why do people need a faster thing?" or whatever.

00:08:36   It's also that depending on the year, there also could be things that people do care about,

00:08:40   like battery life benefits to being built on a smaller processor or whatever.

00:08:44   So when the iPhone chip steps up to 3nm or whatever it's going to be, the old one will

00:08:49   still be on 5, that will take more power, as in battery power, and that is a thing that

00:08:54   regular people actually do care about.

00:08:56   Makes perfect sense.

00:08:57   Pros should have more better stuff than the non-pros,

00:08:59   but we had several years where that wasn't the case,

00:09:01   and now they're sort of taking that away.

00:09:03   So there'll be a little bit of a,

00:09:04   aw, bummer, it was cool the way it was feeling.

00:09:07   But then once they settle into it and people forget,

00:09:09   it'll be fine.

00:09:10   - Yeah, I agree.

00:09:12   And also just as a side note,

00:09:14   as somebody who bought an iPhone 13 mini,

00:09:16   I'm gonna be like, great.

00:09:18   Like, I'm not gonna be,

00:09:20   even though there will be an A15,

00:09:22   I won't feel quite as out of the loop

00:09:24   because the lower end phones

00:09:26   will still have the same processing power,

00:09:28   presumably as the iPhone 13 mini that I have.

00:09:31   So that makes me feel less bad about the mini

00:09:33   not getting an update.

00:09:34   95 Mac says that Apple has no plans to release a bigger iMac,

00:09:40   that they talk to their sources and they say,

00:09:42   "No current plans."

00:09:43   Now plans change, and it feels like the plans

00:09:45   on larger iMac maybe have changed.

00:09:48   And I'm really unclear, talking about Ming-Chi Kuo,

00:09:52   he said something also on Twitter about a lot of products

00:09:55   that we might have thought would have been happening this year

00:09:58   or not going to happen this year, which is interesting.

00:10:02   Not entirely surprising,

00:10:03   but in the "get used to disappointment" category,

00:10:06   for those who are like, "Oh, yeah,

00:10:08   there's a bigger iMac coming," 9 to 5 Mac sources,

00:10:11   anyway, say they are not currently planning

00:10:15   to release a bigger iMac.

00:10:17   -Yep, that's what I heard, as well.

00:10:19   I mean, you know, here's the thing with Apple.

00:10:22   As very recent history has shown,

00:10:25   what people want Apple to produce,

00:10:27   especially in the Mac line,

00:10:28   and what Apple actually does produce,

00:10:29   don't necessarily have to overlap as much as you might hope.

00:10:32   In fact, they can go many, many years

00:10:34   not making a bunch of products

00:10:35   that many of their customers say that they want.

00:10:37   I think that's bad for Apple to do that,

00:10:40   but in the end, what actually happens is,

00:10:42   well, people grumble and they buy

00:10:43   whatever it is that Apple offers.

00:10:44   So if Apple stops making a 27-inch iMac,

00:10:47   people won't buy it because it doesn't exist,

00:10:49   and they will choose one of the other Macs to go with.

00:10:52   Just like when Apple didn't offer the kinds of machines that people wanted they just chose from what was available and grumbled a little bit

00:10:58   So in many respects it was like inelastic demand or whatever like it doesn't matter that much what Apple does in the end people will

00:11:04   Buy what is offered as long as it is reasonable

00:11:06   But I'm not sure

00:11:09   If this is one of those cases where popular sentiment will just kind of like fester where people feel

00:11:14   Kind of bad as I said an ATP

00:11:17   They sold a lot of 27 inch IMAX and the reason I sold a lot of them like not

00:11:21   Relatively speaking because most of the things they sell are like, you know, 80 90 percent laptops

00:11:25   but the 27 inch IMAX has been a product in their line up for many many years and those machines tend to last a really

00:11:30   Long time because they're good right you can use them for years and years your regular person can use a 5k

00:11:35   IMAX, you know for five ten years easy

00:11:38   That's a lot of computers that are out there in the world and at some point

00:11:42   Those are gonna get old or break or they're gonna want a new one and it's gonna be weird for those people to go

00:11:47   to a store the people who bought and enjoyed a 27-inch iMac and

00:11:51   Realized that they have a weird uncomfortable choice to make where they can't just get me a better version of the thing I had

00:11:56   Which is something they've been able to do for a long time, especially if it's you know, the 5k iMac has been around what for?

00:12:01   Almost 10 years now close to it

00:12:03   Yeah, it was

00:12:06   2014 I want to say yeah and in between there maybe maybe someone bought an original one and then it got a bunch of years

00:12:13   Old and they got a new one and I got a bunch of years old and they're gonna go on and they're gonna be like

00:12:15   Oh, there is no one for me to get that's like this and they're gonna have to make a different choice

00:12:19   Not necessarily a bad thing, but that is kind of

00:12:22   you know

00:12:25   Apple's done as many times where you can't get a computer

00:12:27   That's just like the one you had only a little better you have to make a different choice now

00:12:30   You had to make different trade-offs the computer, you know

00:12:32   where's my mother went through it when she was so used to getting laptops with optical drives and

00:12:36   Eventually, she got to the point where her laptop with an article drive was really old

00:12:40   She went to get a new one went into the Apple Store

00:12:42   None of them had optical drives not that I'm saying this is the same thing in terms of Apple drives going obsolete

00:12:46   But like that sort of comfort level

00:12:49   Where you can just go into the store every X number of years and get the newest version of your whatever

00:12:54   That you feel comfortable with that changes over time

00:12:57   It remains to be seen is the 27-inch iMac like the optical drive where it's like oh people grumble

00:13:03   But we've all moved on or is it like let's say the laptop with an SD card slot

00:13:07   where people grumble and they don't stop grumbling and they literally never stop grumbling and

00:13:12   then eventually Apple slips into the computer with a laptop with an SD card slot on it and

00:13:16   an HDMI port.

00:13:17   I have some feelings about where the iMac product line has gone in the last 15 years

00:13:23   that I want to talk about in a little bit, but I will say here that I believe that Apple

00:13:28   will release a larger iMac and I know you made this case on ATP that they will do it

00:13:32   at some point.

00:13:33   I'm not convinced that Apple is going to release an iMac Pro or anything like that, but making

00:13:39   a version of, think of it this way, of the 24-inch iMac with a larger screen, maybe with

00:13:45   the panel that's in the studio display and has been in the 5K iMac, and having it still

00:13:51   be based on whatever processor is in the 24-inch iMac at that point, an M1, M2, whatever, as

00:13:58   essentially the same iMac just with a bigger screen.

00:14:02   I feel like that is almost inevitable

00:14:05   because the panel's there, it's a nice experience,

00:14:09   people are used to it.

00:14:10   And I think it's a different argument to say,

00:14:13   Apple is gonna make a high-end iMac that's for pros.

00:14:17   Because I think you can look at this past week and say,

00:14:20   they make other products to do that

00:14:24   and they don't necessarily want that to be the case.

00:14:27   but I don't think that that's required to have

00:14:30   just a bigger iMac for people to use.

00:14:33   - Yeah, and I was, as I've said in ATP,

00:14:36   worst case scenario, even if Apple never makes that decision

00:14:39   and they just stick to their guns in this thing,

00:14:41   eventually the 24-inch iMac will not be 24 inches anymore.

00:14:44   Screens get bigger over time.

00:14:46   We are not yet at the practical limit.

00:14:48   It was 21.5 inches for many, many years.

00:14:50   Then it became 24 inches.

00:14:52   Several years in the future,

00:14:54   that machine will be replaced by a 27 inch version of itself,

00:14:58   simply because 27 inches still within the realm of reason

00:15:00   for a home computer.

00:15:01   It's only a little bit bigger than 24.

00:15:03   And in general, if you're buying an iMac,

00:15:06   you're doing that because you want a bigger screen

00:15:09   than a laptop can offer and you want an all-in-one.

00:15:12   So that'll happen eventually too.

00:15:13   But like whether we get a 27 inch iMac in three years

00:15:18   or in seven makes a big difference to the people

00:15:21   who may be pining for that machine.

00:15:23   but hey, we waited a really long time for laptops

00:15:25   with keyboards that work and the port's something we wanted.

00:15:27   So I guess we Apple customers are used to waiting sometimes.

00:15:31   - Yeah, it just doesn't seem like a huge deviation

00:15:33   from Apple's strategy to say everybody loved the 24.

00:15:36   I mean, this is sort of my prediction

00:15:38   is that they're already,

00:15:38   they actually are already working on it

00:15:40   and it's just gonna be the 24-inch iMac

00:15:42   with a second version that's a little bit larger.

00:15:44   And it's like, people like it,

00:15:45   here's a little bigger one if you want it, that's it.

00:15:48   Like, it's not a thing.

00:15:49   It's not a big major shift in their strategy.

00:15:53   It's really just like we made two sizes of the one iMac.

00:15:57   That's it.

00:15:58   One more piece of follow-up,

00:16:01   which is the baseball,

00:16:03   Major League Baseball ended its lockout.

00:16:05   The players are in camp.

00:16:06   They're gonna start the season.

00:16:07   It's gonna start a little bit late.

00:16:09   They have to add some games to the end of the season

00:16:11   and in the middle of the season,

00:16:12   but they're gonna play them all.

00:16:13   And that means for the purposes of this show,

00:16:15   that Apple TV+'s Friday Night Baseball

00:16:18   is indeed now coming in April.

00:16:21   I wrote a post last week on Six Colors, all about it.

00:16:24   I went into a bunch of detail about this.

00:16:26   Last week on, as a matter of follow-up,

00:16:29   on this show, right after the Apple event,

00:16:31   so we're trying to process all that information,

00:16:33   I said I thought, I mentioned ESPN had packages

00:16:36   that they were losing.

00:16:38   This is a new package.

00:16:39   This is not what ESPN left on the table.

00:16:43   I believe Peacock, owned by NBCUniversal,

00:16:46   is picking up the ESPN package,

00:16:47   which is for national games on Mondays and Wednesdays,

00:16:50   I think, and Apple's doing Fridays.

00:16:52   And my understanding is that Peacock deal

00:16:55   is for exclusivity as well.

00:16:59   And I know you sent me a note from a friend of yours

00:17:03   about why these deals are difficult for fans.

00:17:08   And I agree with it.

00:17:09   And I included some of that in my post on Six Colors,

00:17:12   the idea that you're used to your team

00:17:18   on your team's channel, basically.

00:17:21   And some teams have a cable channel

00:17:23   or they've got cable and some broadcast,

00:17:25   but you're used to seeing it there

00:17:26   and seeing every game, basically.

00:17:28   And in recent years, there have been occasional

00:17:32   national exclusivity windows.

00:17:35   ESPN Sunday Night Baseball is one of them.

00:17:37   Fox had some exclusivity on Saturdays.

00:17:41   But the big one is Facebook, yeah.

00:17:44   Facebook had a baseball game, like every week.

00:17:48   and you could only watch it on Facebook.

00:17:50   And so every local TV channel and radio channel

00:17:53   would have to be like, "We don't have the team tomorrow.

00:17:56   You'll need to watch that on Facebook.

00:17:58   Good luck."

00:18:00   And it's jarring for fans and it's upsetting.

00:18:03   And it totally is.

00:18:05   It sounds like there's gonna be more of that

00:18:08   that the Peacock deal does this too.

00:18:09   So there's just gonna be some games for fans of a team

00:18:12   during this season where the broadcasters are gonna say,

00:18:15   "Tomorrow you can't see it on our channel."

00:18:18   because it'll only be on whether it's Peacock or Apple TV Plus.

00:18:22   Now, the thing that I said to you,

00:18:23   'cause your friend said, you know,

00:18:27   baseball, that's the rhythms of the game,

00:18:29   and you know the broadcasters and all of those things.

00:18:31   - It was more than that.

00:18:33   Obviously, it was the things you just said of like,

00:18:34   this is the place that I'm used to watching it,

00:18:36   and it's a local thing or whatever,

00:18:37   and the next level is, oh, the people who call the game

00:18:40   are the people who I like to call the game.

00:18:42   But I think we sort of, and that's just like, well,

00:18:44   people who call the games,

00:18:45   regardless of what deals people do,

00:18:46   People, you know get old retire die like that changes over time as well

00:18:50   Although, you know baseball announcers may have very long careers, but the the sort of categorical thing that my friend brought up was like

00:18:56   He's he's used to and prefers

00:18:59   watching a game where the people calling it are

00:19:03   Unabashedly 100% biased in favor of his home team, right?

00:19:07   Right that they are rooting for the Red Sox to win and that's the experience he prefers and you're

00:19:14   regardless of who retires and who calls what and who does what you're not going to get that in a national

00:19:18   broadcast because they can't have the announcers being 100% one-sided towards one of the two teams

00:19:24   That's not how a national broadcast works. In fact, they can't they aren't going to be biased against either

00:19:28   And in fact, they're going to explain lots of things that the fans of those teams already know because they're going to be trying to reach

00:19:33   This third audience, which is this theoretical

00:19:36   I think there's a question of who that audience is and if they really exist but theoretically there's also an audience who is just tuning

00:19:42   in to see a baseball game between two random teams and wants to learn about those teams.

00:19:47   And so they have to tell anecdotes that the fans of the teams have heard a million times

00:19:51   and they're telling it wrong. And I think that's absolutely true. One of the things

00:19:55   that your email brought to mind for me and I, we don't know exactly how this is going

00:20:00   to go. Major League Baseball is producing this for Apple. Apple's not hiring announcers,

00:20:04   right? Major League Baseball, part of the money that Apple is paying to Major League

00:20:08   baseball involves Major League Baseball producing these games for Apple. By the

00:20:12   way, it's $85 million a year over seven years, although Apple has opt-outs after

00:20:17   year one and two in case this is a flop. But they are saying that we're gonna pay

00:20:21   you over seven years almost $600 million. One of the things Major League

00:20:25   Baseball is going to do is produce the games for Apple. Now, my initial thought

00:20:29   when you showed me what your friend had said was, "Would it be clever for Apple to

00:20:37   do something like offer the ability to switch to your home team's radio broadcast if you

00:20:44   really want to hear your home team announcers who all who really just want your team to

00:20:49   win in Red Sox country apparently just for details not I asked my friend about that he

00:20:54   said well the guy who does the Red Sox radio calls around here is like super famous and

00:20:58   no way to dislodge him and he's different from the TV people there's no way there's

00:21:03   no way that you know there's so much so many entrenched traditions that no you can't get

00:21:07   those guys on the radio because the radio is taken.

00:21:08   - This is the bottom line that I think is fascinating is,

00:21:11   is the, so maybe they'll do that.

00:21:14   And somebody asked me interactivity, like, will they,

00:21:17   will they do, since it's a Apple TV+ only broadcast,

00:21:21   could they do interactivity?

00:21:22   There's questions about what the ad breaks will be.

00:21:24   Will they go back to like the,

00:21:25   the highlight desk and show highlights of other games?

00:21:28   Are they going to have, you know,

00:21:29   rolling ads for Apple TV+?

00:21:31   I don't think they're going to sell commercials,

00:21:33   but they have to do something because quite frankly,

00:21:35   If nothing else, the announcers have to be able to go to the bathroom from time to time.

00:21:39   So there's lots of questions about that.

00:21:42   And we don't know how they're going to handle any of this.

00:21:45   But the exclusivity thing in broad strokes, I think, is a frustration.

00:21:50   I get why Apple wants to do it.

00:21:53   I get why Peacock wants to do it.

00:21:55   Fans are going to be irate.

00:21:57   As every broadcast of a team comes up where their team is not on the local TV because

00:22:04   it's on Apple TV+, fans will be irate. Not just because they have to pay for Apple to

00:22:09   see their show, to see their game, but because it won't be the same, because it won't be

00:22:13   their announcers and it won't be the thing that they're used to. I understand the reason

00:22:18   why they do the exclusivity thing, because they kind of think, well, the primary audience

00:22:23   for this thing is going to be people who are fans of those teams that are playing. And

00:22:27   so we really don't want them to be able to seek it out on cable. We want them to have

00:22:32   to go see it. At the same time, I'm kind of sympathetic as a fan of a team. I am sympathetic

00:22:38   to the idea that you end up watching this game and it's like, "This isn't the same.

00:22:42   I don't like it. This is not how I prefer to watch my baseball team. And why don't you

00:22:46   just let me watch my broadcast locally and the rest of the world can get your Apple TV

00:22:53   broadcast?" But they didn't pay for that. They paid for exclusivity. And so we're entering

00:22:59   a period, after being in a period for a few decades where basically every game is on TV,

00:23:05   on your local cable or broadcast, now we're entering a period where there's a bunch of

00:23:09   streaming games that are just not going to be available.

00:23:11   Yeah, that's Major League Baseball selling the fans to another company to make money.

00:23:17   That's kind of the way this works.

00:23:19   This happens. My local team, so the Golden State Warriors or the NBA, I don't have on

00:23:26   On my over-the-top TV service, Fupo, I don't have any of the Turner channels, so I don't

00:23:30   have TNT, which has NBA games, national NBA games.

00:23:34   And so there are games that the Warriors play that are just not on for me.

00:23:40   They're playing, but I can't see it because there's a national exclusivity window.

00:23:46   And like I said, Sunday Night Baseball has been like that for a long time, but I think

00:23:50   your friend would probably complain about Sunday Night Baseball, especially since he's

00:23:53   a Red Sox fan, and ESPN takes the Yankees and the Red Sox and puts them on Sunday Night

00:23:58   Baseball practically every week. So you're losing a lot of games where you'd really rather

00:24:03   just be watching Dennis Eckersley and Dave O'Brien, whoever the announcers are for the

00:24:09   Red Sox. Don't ask me. I just pulled it out of my hat there. Anyway, it'll be interesting

00:24:15   to see, but everybody get ready, because starting April 7th or whatever it is, I guess April

00:24:21   8th, people will be complaining about Apple stealing their home team's baseball games

00:24:26   away. It will happen, guaranteed. Be like, "What do you mean, Apple TV?" We'll see.

00:24:31   Alright, I want to talk about the Mac a lot because nobody cares about the Mac but us,

00:24:36   but we do care, Jon. That's a reference. But first, let me tell you about our first

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00:26:04   time. Thank you to Bombas for supporting this show and all of Relay FM. So, Jon, you were

00:26:10   quoted extensively on The Verge today by me because I wrote an article about the X-Mac.

00:26:22   And Nili Patel, who runs The Verge, basically DM'd me and said, "Would you like to write

00:26:28   an article about the X-Mac now that the Mac Studio has been announced?" You want to tell

00:26:33   people a little bit about what the X-Mac is?

00:26:35   - What did you reply to Nili and say, "What the heck is the X-Mac?"

00:26:38   - Oh no, I know.

00:26:39   He actually said the mythical mid range Mac mini tower.

00:26:41   And I was like, oh yeah, I know.

00:26:43   'Cause I think he has memories of all of those articles

00:26:45   that Dan Frakes and Rob Griffiths used to write about.

00:26:47   The MMMM.

00:26:50   - Yeah, so the X Mac, the term X Mac is, you know,

00:26:54   has its origin as far as I've been able to determine

00:26:57   in an Ars Technica forum stuff from ages ago

00:26:59   in the early 2000s.

00:27:01   But the idea, setting aside the name,

00:27:03   the idea is very common.

00:27:04   And Apple sort of created the idea

00:27:06   by choosing to sell Macs with, you know, with no product in this category. So they sold big, fancy,

00:27:15   super big, super expensive, professional, giant Macs of various kinds from years. And they sold,

00:27:22   you know, consumer models that were smaller, less powerful, more limited. And they never really sold

00:27:30   a thing that sort of tech enthusiasts wanted. You know, Ars Technica is the — I forgot the tagline

00:27:34   It's the PC enthusiast resource or something like tech nerds what tech nerds want is they want all the whizzy things

00:27:40   You know the best of everything they can get but they also

00:27:42   Don't want to or can't pay the thousands and thousands of dollars for the super duper high-end professional things

00:27:49   And that's you know in the PC market. There's lots of as a big part of the PC market

00:27:55   That's like this like say you're building a gaming PC. You're not going to build a

00:28:00   $10,000 gaming PC you could if you wanted to but people are buying gaming PCs what they want is to be able to say all right

00:28:06   Here's what's important to me big GPU. So I'm gonna you know get the best GPU I can get

00:28:11   That's gonna be a big part of the price of my computer and then any of the fastest CPU and you know for the fastest

00:28:16   CPU for gaming specifically I need this amount of RAM and this SSD and I want this size case and

00:28:21   That's all that matters to me, right?

00:28:23   And if their only choice was well if you want those things that you listed you have to pay

00:28:29   $10,000 for a computer the size of a car because that's the only one we make that has those things

00:28:34   It's like well, I don't need 12 PCI slots and I don't need you know afterburner card. No, it's optional

00:28:39   But you know, I don't I don't need all these other things and I can't afford $10,000. Can't you just give me

00:28:43   What you said a quote-unquote?

00:28:45   Mid-range computer that has the good things that I want about it and that I can upgrade those pieces

00:28:50   But doesn't have all that other stuff. That's not important to me, right and

00:28:55   For you know, basically the entire life of the Mac Apple has never really made that computer

00:28:59   They that's not a consumer base

00:29:01   They were interested in sort of the hot I want to make a hot rod and I want to be able to wrench on it myself

00:29:06   Right. I want to be able to go in there and you know

00:29:09   Upgrade the parts that I care about and maybe swap in a new graphics card and you know, it's concentrates a lot on gamers

00:29:14   You know the X Mac is not particularly a gaming Mac

00:29:16   But a lot of people who are interested in gaming would want that type of thing

00:29:20   I was like I need power, but I just needed in these areas. I don't need ultimate expandability

00:29:24   And Apple, you know, as time went on, Apple seemed to get farther and farther away from

00:29:31   making that.

00:29:32   As you noted in your article, there was a time when Apple made desktop computers that

00:29:36   were not the biggest and baddest, but that was from a time when desktop computers were

00:29:40   sort of the prime kind of computer, right?

00:29:43   You know, especially like before the PowerBook or whatever, you'd had a Mac 2 and a Mac 2

00:29:49   and a Mac 2 FX and they looked exactly the same, but the 2 FX was the big bad one and

00:29:54   the 2 and the 2X were the more limited ones and you had your 2 CI and 2 CX and they were

00:29:59   like well they're not as big as the as the 2 FX literally they're not as wide right they're

00:30:03   a little bit smaller and they're almost as good and you know and the reason they did

00:30:07   that was because everybody bought desktop computers it needed to be big enough to hold

00:30:10   the CRT so there was there was one size you know one limiting factor to his dimensions

00:30:15   but they sold a whole bunch of those.

00:30:16   And in the Power Mac era, what you ended up with was the good, better, best thing, right?

00:30:20   Where there were three Power Mac desktops, and there was the tower, which is sort of what you would think of as the Mac Pro today.

00:30:27   But there was also the pizza box, and then there was the one in the middle.

00:30:31   And the last—the way I pegged it was the last modular mid-range Mac desktop was probably the beige Power Mac G3 desktop.

00:30:44   There was a tower, but there was also this desktop configuration.

00:30:47   It was not all that, it was a little bit less.

00:30:51   And when Steve Jobs came back, one of the things he did was say, "There are way too

00:30:56   many Macs."

00:30:57   And he was right.

00:30:58   There were.

00:30:59   He was absolutely right.

00:31:00   There are way too many Macs, we're going to simplify.

00:31:03   But one of the ways they simplified was by making a single Pro Tower.

00:31:08   And then when they brought in another desktop, it was a single consumer desktop, and it was

00:31:13   the iMac. And people don't remember this now, but the iMac started as a low-end consumer

00:31:21   computer, right? It was not powerful. I remember the iRolls from everybody who was a power

00:31:26   user when the iMac came out. It was cool, and it was maybe going to save Apple, which

00:31:30   it did, but it was not a computer that a power user would want to use. And the thing is,

00:31:36   even when the Mac Mini got introduced in 2005, which I know your post was sort of from that,

00:31:40   in the wake of the Mac Mini, is this the mythical mid-range mini tower? Is this the X Mac?" And the

00:31:45   answer is, "No, not really." But Apple has just steadfastly said, "No, we've got these way over

00:31:54   here and this one way over here, and that's it," until last week, basically. So I think it's

00:32:02   interesting that they used to do this all the time, right? And that time passed, and that was

00:32:06   was when people bought desktops instead of laptops.

00:32:08   But still, that to me is the source of the grumbling

00:32:13   and the seeking of the X Mac,

00:32:15   the mythical mid range mini tower,

00:32:17   is that Apple sort of said,

00:32:19   "No, we're not gonna do that.

00:32:20   "We're gonna make a tower

00:32:22   "and then some other little desktops and that's it."

00:32:24   That's all you get.

00:32:26   - I think to keep in mind about the time

00:32:28   when they did make desktop computers kind of in the middle,

00:32:32   was that was back in the time when all Macs

00:32:34   were just horrendously, eye-bleedingly expensive.

00:32:36   Like if you translate them into today's dollars,

00:32:38   you would not believe how much 2CX cost with the monitor.

00:32:41   Like you just, it would cost as much as a car, right?

00:32:43   So, and most people don't remember that era

00:32:45   because they weren't Mac users.

00:32:47   And you're saying, wait a second, that's mid range?

00:32:49   It's like, well, in the grand scheme of things it is,

00:32:51   'cause it didn't cost as much as a 2FX.

00:32:54   - The Power Mac 7100,

00:32:55   which was the first non-PizzaBox, non-Tower Power Mac,

00:33:00   that was, I had one on my desk at Mac user,

00:33:02   that was introduced at $2,650,

00:33:07   which in today's money is $4,600.

00:33:11   That was the mid range Mac of 1994.

00:33:15   - And that wasn't the good one, right?

00:33:17   The pizza box was the quote unquote cheap one.

00:33:19   And the good one was the 8,100.

00:33:21   - 8,100, yeah, the tower.

00:33:22   - And that was, for the power Macs, they kind of did that.

00:33:25   Pizza box was the low end,

00:33:26   and then you had the middle one,

00:33:27   and then you had the vertical one, which was more expensive.

00:33:31   But that was such, the reason that's not relevant

00:33:34   to most people's memories of X Mac is like,

00:33:36   well, nobody was buying Macs then

00:33:37   because they were all so expensive.

00:33:39   It's just when the Mac started,

00:33:40   like in particular in the age of the iMac.

00:33:42   The iMac, another thing about it, people don't remember

00:33:44   is that from the perspective of an Apple fan, it was cheap.

00:33:47   From the perspective of a regular person, it wasn't cheap

00:33:50   because everything from Apple was expensive.

00:33:52   But I remember being shocked at how little

00:33:54   they were charging for the iMac

00:33:56   in terms of historically,

00:33:57   what does Apple charge for new computers?

00:33:59   So, you know, it was like, imagine the Macintosh LC,

00:34:03   but so sexy that everybody wanted it, right?

00:34:06   It was cheap for Apple, cheap.

00:34:08   And so once- - $12.99 for them

00:34:11   in 1998 money.

00:34:14   - And so once they, once you started getting more people

00:34:17   into the Mac camp, then you started getting people saying,

00:34:19   "Well, I don't want the iMac,

00:34:20   'cause obviously that's a silly thing

00:34:21   for consumers or whatever.

00:34:22   I can't afford the big fancy one,

00:34:24   but I do want one where I have the flexibility

00:34:27   to spec it the way I want,

00:34:29   and you know, didn't have graphics cards back then

00:34:31   to speak of, but upgraded the way I wanted.

00:34:33   And as time marched on, especially for the few eras where,

00:34:36   not so much the Power Macs,

00:34:40   because most of those towers,

00:34:41   even though they had good, better, best,

00:34:42   the good one was still pretty expensive.

00:34:44   But there were a couple of years there,

00:34:45   especially like, I forget what years,

00:34:47   maybe Marco said on ATP, like the 2006 Mac Pro or something,

00:34:50   where the entry-level Mac Pro was $1,800.

00:34:52   It was a brief moment in time where it's like,

00:34:56   well, how about this?

00:34:57   How about we still just make a monster computer that nobody can afford, but the very base

00:35:02   base model of that is exactly the same size and shape as the expensive one.

00:35:07   It's just got cheaper guts in it.

00:35:09   Is that an X Mac?

00:35:10   And that's pretty much as close as Apple ever got.

00:35:12   But I think where that falls down is I don't have room in my house for this thing because

00:35:16   they're huge and heavy.

00:35:18   Could you make something a little bit smaller maybe?

00:35:21   - Yeah, it's definitely one of the effects

00:35:25   of what happened in the Intel era is that,

00:35:27   and we watched it at Macworld back in the day,

00:35:29   is they kept ratcheting up what the Mac Pro was.

00:35:32   And it became very clear that Apple was saying

00:35:34   the Mac Pro is a high-end system.

00:35:36   It's really not for people in the mid range.

00:35:37   And you went from people being like,

00:35:39   well, it's expensive, but if I get the base model,

00:35:41   I can make it work, to I can't get the base model.

00:35:44   It's too expensive.

00:35:46   And they had nowhere to go,

00:35:47   'cause then it's like, do I get a Mac mini?

00:35:50   Like there are, you could, and in those days

00:35:54   you could trick out like the Mac mini that they released

00:35:57   in whatever 2017 or whatever, that one was,

00:36:00   had some power to it.

00:36:01   But the Mac mini in those earlier days

00:36:04   was really not a very powerful computer.

00:36:06   And of course, in terms of expandability

00:36:07   it was also incredibly limited.

00:36:09   - And in terms of graphics for gaming, forget it,

00:36:11   with the integrated graphics, there was nowhere to go

00:36:13   and especially before you GPU support.

00:36:15   Like there was a thing about the low end Mac Pro

00:36:18   for the entire life of any computer with the name Mac Pro

00:36:20   it has been huge, like physically huge. Just the type of computer that to commit to that much square

00:36:27   footage, you know, cubic inches in your house being absorbed by computing, you're already over some

00:36:34   line. And as you noted, if you chose not to do that, your next step down was something the size of

00:36:40   half a tissue box. It was like, just even just forget about what's in these boxes. Physically

00:36:45   speaking you can say your choice is giant suitcase half tissue box and that was you

00:36:50   know the xmac is even if you know nothing about computers you would say it seems like

00:36:54   there should be something in between there that doesn't have a built-in screen and then

00:36:59   apple didn't make it yeah so the mac studio is a big mac benny right it's not expandable

00:37:06   although as you pointed out on atp last week like times have changed and and you you said

00:37:12   to me last week and I put it in the Verge story like you know you you hold

00:37:16   on to your dreams for 16 years and you look at your dreams and say hmm no these

00:37:22   are not my dreams anymore. Eventually they stopped making sense that it was you've had the same

00:37:26   dream but then like it loses relevance in the world because like if you have

00:37:31   some particular dreams like I want the x-mac and here's what defines and you

00:37:34   list out the things that define it like you haven't you never got to the root of

00:37:38   what you really wanted.

00:37:39   Like, I want a computer that I can afford

00:37:42   that does the things that I want well,

00:37:44   but that's not what you defined it as.

00:37:45   You said like, I'm a computer nerd,

00:37:46   so it has to have X and Y and Z,

00:37:48   and you lost sight of what you really want

00:37:51   is a solution to your problem,

00:37:52   and your problem is I don't want to spend

00:37:54   a huge amount of money, but I do want games to run fast,

00:37:57   or I want a computer that lasts a long time,

00:37:58   or I want something that's very powerful

00:38:00   in these particular aspects, right?

00:38:02   But instead you said, no, no, no, that's not my goal.

00:38:04   I have specific like spec demands I need,

00:38:06   And those specs, those ideas, those sort of, you know,

00:38:09   it has to have upgradable RAM.

00:38:11   It has to be, I need to be able to swap the graphics cards.

00:38:14   Like why, why do you want those things?

00:38:15   Well, because they allow me to do this.

00:38:18   If they allow me to have a computer

00:38:20   for a certain number of years

00:38:21   without spending too much money,

00:38:22   they can play the latest games or whatever.

00:38:23   Whatever your goal is, you know,

00:38:26   you lose sight of the goal and you just say,

00:38:27   I want this specific solution to that goal.

00:38:29   And eventually that solution becomes irrelevant to the goal.

00:38:32   And even if you're offered something that says here,

00:38:35   this does what you want it to do."

00:38:37   And you're like, "Yeah, but it's not exactly

00:38:38   what I was asking for.

00:38:39   I wanted this specific thing."

00:38:41   It's like, "But didn't you want it to do these things?"

00:38:44   And I think at a certain point you have to say,

00:38:46   "Well, yeah, if you give me something

00:38:48   that can do the things I want it to do,

00:38:49   even if it doesn't do them

00:38:50   using the exact technique I described,

00:38:52   it's still solving my problem in the end."

00:38:54   - Yeah, and you pointed out that, you know,

00:38:56   we can't upgrade the RAM in Apple Silicon Macs.

00:38:59   You have to buy it in the configuration

00:39:01   it's going to live in.

00:39:02   But there is quite a benefit

00:39:04   from the way Apple has designed this.

00:39:06   And it's not doing it to be mean,

00:39:08   it's doing it to get the performance

00:39:10   that has impressed us all about the Apple Silicon Macs.

00:39:13   So it's just, you know, you gotta,

00:39:15   not everybody's gonna be happy,

00:39:17   but the Mac Studio to me, I look at it and think,

00:39:20   actually very similar to what I thought about the iMac Pro

00:39:23   when it was announced, which is, all right,

00:39:25   this is a powerful Mac at a level where I wanna buy it,

00:39:31   where I'm not gonna buy,

00:39:32   'cause I was like, I'm not gonna buy Mac Pro.

00:39:34   I'm not gonna do it.

00:39:35   I'm just not gonna do it.

00:39:36   And then I look at the-- - You can't commit

00:39:37   to the suitcase.

00:39:38   - And I look at the Mac Studio and I think,

00:39:40   okay, that I could do.

00:39:42   That price for those features, that I could do.

00:39:46   And that is sort of in the mid range.

00:39:48   Although Dan Morin wrote a piece on Six Colors this week

00:39:51   about how you still are in this, there's still a gap, right?

00:39:54   There's still a gap where with a 27-inch iMac being removed

00:39:58   that you've got kind of the Mac Mini down there

00:40:00   and the Mac Studio up here.

00:40:02   And I wonder if the answer is actually gonna be

00:40:05   that they're just gonna make a,

00:40:06   they're gonna make a more capable Mac mini

00:40:09   maybe later this year or maybe early next year

00:40:12   that creeps up a little bit

00:40:14   so that you've got a little more kind of fine gradation

00:40:17   between kind of Mac mini and Mac studio and Mac Pro.

00:40:20   But there is a little bit of a gap now where,

00:40:22   and Dan is in it, which is why he wrote about it,

00:40:24   which is he wants more than the 24,

00:40:26   but right now you can't, you know,

00:40:29   if you want to get something other than an M1 in a desktop,

00:40:32   you have to get the Mac Studio.

00:40:34   Like that's where it starts because the iMac doesn't have it

00:40:37   and the Mac Mini doesn't have it.

00:40:38   I can't conceive of that being the case

00:40:41   at the end of next year, let's say,

00:40:44   but it is where it is right now.

00:40:46   - Yeah, I mean, there's two gaps.

00:40:47   There's a pricing gap that's obvious

00:40:49   if you just look at the base prices of the machines.

00:40:51   There's a big gap between Mac Mini pricing

00:40:54   and Mac Studio pricing.

00:40:55   So regardless of, you know,

00:40:57   If you have a nice product line, it's nice to see even jumps from going up the line and

00:41:02   there's this big chasm in the middle, right?

00:41:03   So now the question is, okay, there's a pricing gap, what product fills that pricing gap?

00:41:08   And you could choose a more powerful Mac Mini, which Apple will inevitably make, that will

00:41:12   fill that gap.

00:41:13   It'll fill the price gap easily because it'll probably be a little bit more expensive because

00:41:16   it's got the M1 Pro in it or whatever instead of just the plain old M1, so it'll be more

00:41:20   expensive but it will be less than a Mac Studio.

00:41:23   Problem solved.

00:41:24   gap in there, aside from price, is the form factor gap.

00:41:29   If you want an all-in-one computer, Apple sold one with a 27-inch screen for many, many,

00:41:34   many, many, many years, and now they don't anymore.

00:41:36   And so even if they slot something into the price gap and say, "Hey, there's no gap in

00:41:39   our lineup.

00:41:40   Look at the smooth gradation of prices."

00:41:42   If you are accustomed to a 27-inch iMac and that is the form you prefer, there is still

00:41:47   a gap where you say, "I used to be able to get a computer shaped like this and sized

00:41:50   like this, and now I can't anymore."

00:41:51   You could get a studio display and a Mac mini, but they aren't the same.

00:41:55   They are not the same because now you have one thing being plugged into another box and

00:42:01   it's more expensive.

00:42:02   Like they don't have a price competitive.

00:42:04   They don't have anything that is that is price competitive with a 27 inch screen.

00:42:08   No, no, they don't.

00:42:10   That's right.

00:42:11   And that's why I think we both believe that this these holes will also inevitably be filled.

00:42:15   I think it's pretty I mean Apple is going to do what they want and there are maybe some

00:42:19   areas where they're going to be like, "Yeah, it's not worth it for us." But I look at this

00:42:22   and think it's the proto-Apple Silicon lineup. It's the M1 part of the transition and that

00:42:29   there's another, you know, there's another generation coming and another one after that.

00:42:34   And I think that in the next generation, they're going to have a little more latitude to spread

00:42:39   things out in their product line as they want. But this was take one and this is where we

00:42:44   are now. I think I just I'm pretty confident that they're going to do more now that they've

00:42:49   gotten this generation out the door and you know, but the thing is it's all changing and

00:42:54   moving around and so like does it make total sense right this minute? It's like well, no

00:42:59   not total sense. It's it's there's a lot of good stuff in there, but I don't think they're

00:43:03   done. I don't think they're just going to iterate on these slots for the next five years.

00:43:07   I just I don't think they are I think there are more more variations the fact that there's

00:43:12   still an Intel Mac Mini for sale, right? Like there are more variations to come. My understanding

00:43:16   is that Intel Mac Mini is there in part because there are a lot of industrial uses like server

00:43:21   racks and things, maybe that Amazon contract they've got where they're like, "We don't

00:43:24   want your Apple Silicon. We want your... We standardized on Intel. We can't move yet."

00:43:30   But that obviously they're gonna kill it at some point here and I would think that there

00:43:35   will be a story that isn't just the M2 or just the M1 at that point, but we're not there

00:43:40   yet.

00:43:41   - Yeah, I think it's clear that the decision they made

00:43:43   for this rollout is 27 inches not differentiated enough

00:43:47   from their offering, so they're dropping it.

00:43:49   I think the faster Mac Mini is part of this year's plan

00:43:52   and that is coming.

00:43:53   That's not going to be a reaction to this guy.

00:43:55   When they come out with the more powerful Mac Mini,

00:43:58   don't write any stories that say,

00:43:59   "Oh, see, they saw the 27 inch iMac gap."

00:44:02   And they made, no, that's been coming no matter what.

00:44:04   - It's all part of the plan.

00:44:05   - But next year is the time to reconsider,

00:44:07   okay, like you said, all right,

00:44:09   now we're doing the M2 machines.

00:44:11   Do we want to make a different choice?

00:44:12   Should we make a 27 inch version of the 24?

00:44:15   And that's why my $1 bet with Marco and ATP

00:44:18   was for a three year timeline,

00:44:20   because this year, forget it.

00:44:21   They've made their decision for this year.

00:44:23   Next year, probably too soon to expect anything,

00:44:26   but maybe the year after that is the time they either say,

00:44:28   now it's time for the 24 to graduate to 27,

00:44:31   or now it's time for a 27 to appear

00:44:33   as an option alongside the 24.

00:44:35   I think we're pretty aggressive if I had been more,

00:44:38   if I hadn't just done it on the spur of the moment,

00:44:40   would have picked five years and would have been much more guaranteed to win

00:44:42   that dollar. Three years is aggressive, but I hope that's the decision Apple

00:44:45   will make. Certainly they'll have the flexibility to do so.

00:44:47   I'll back you on this. I think that they'll probably have a larger iMac by

00:44:52   the end of next year, but three years I think you're giving yourself enough room,

00:44:55   honestly. I just I think that it'll be easy, but I don't think it'll be what, you

00:45:01   know, like a high-end iMac. I don't think it's gonna be that. But I do think that

00:45:04   there's gonna be one. All right, I want to talk about more about the iMac a

00:45:07   a little bit and some other Mac stuff because we do care. But first let me take another

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00:46:34   and all of Relay FM and thanks to the CFO, CTO, CEO of that Fortune 500 company. I know

00:46:40   you're out there. One of the points, Jon, that I made in my

00:46:45   Verge piece, and I also wrote a Macworld piece about it in detail like a couple of days before,

00:46:54   is about the iMac. And I'm curious your thoughts about this. Observing the iMac over the course

00:46:59   of, since this introduction basically, the ARC, and I know I mentioned this earlier,

00:47:05   but I just want to hit this point again. It went from being the cheap, in quotes, "consumer

00:47:12   computer underpowered scoffed at by power users." And it feels to me like it became

00:47:19   the vehicle in which all people who wanted a powerful or not powerful Mac desktop, who

00:47:26   because the Mac Pro was getting sort of priced out of the range, it became the vehicle everybody

00:47:31   else got stuffed into, like clowns in a clown car, I don't know. And you ended up, I think,

00:47:38   actually making the iMac in some ways a worse product because they started to chase the

00:47:43   high end. And so you ended up with, like, again, not to pick on it, but that last Intel

00:47:48   iMac, like, it had the nano texture display option, it had these i9 processors that made

00:47:55   the fans just scream when they did stuff.

00:47:58   Like they were so loud

00:47:59   because they weren't really engineered for it.

00:48:01   There was also the iMac Pro,

00:48:03   which was a different kind of more complex diversion

00:48:05   where they're like,

00:48:06   "Well, what if we just made the Mac Pro an iMac?"

00:48:08   No, no, forget about it, forget about it.

00:48:09   We're not gonna, oh, well, we'll sell it,

00:48:11   but we're not gonna do that after all.

00:48:13   And it's just, it struck me that in some ways,

00:48:16   looking at the iMac now with just that colorful 24-inch iMac,

00:48:19   it feels to me like the iMac's actually back to being more

00:48:22   of what it was meant to be

00:48:23   when it didn't have to bear the load of a bunch of user needs that were maybe not what the iMac was meant for.

00:48:30   So this heading in the notes here, and it might've been one of your articles,

00:48:33   listed as the distortion of the iMac. And I think that's, I know what you mean, like, obviously the

00:48:41   way the iMac was originally launched and produced is very different than it is now, but distortion

00:48:45   implies that it is like a spoiling of something good and pure. And I think actually there's an

00:48:50   interesting analogy with the the road the iMac is taken and the Mac Studio

00:48:56   stuff we were just talking about. Obviously the iMac being introduced as a

00:49:00   consumer product that was an important part of the the original idea of that

00:49:07   product because if you're gonna save the company you're not gonna save the

00:49:09   company with the computer that nobody buys. You're not gonna save it with the

00:49:11   super high-end one. It's not like and and you laugh but like you can imagine if

00:49:17   you had made some tech nerd CEO they would say the way to save Apple is

00:49:20   they're gonna make the fastest computer that's ever made.

00:49:22   They're like, that's not how you save Apple.

00:49:23   Like, even if you did that, success,

00:49:24   we've made the fastest computer known to man,

00:49:27   the fastest personal computer known to man, right?

00:49:29   This will surely save the company.

00:49:31   And it's like trying to like save a car company

00:49:32   by making the fastest supercar, right?

00:49:34   That's probably not gonna do it

00:49:35   because not a lot of people buy those

00:49:37   and it may be cool to people who are into cars or computers,

00:49:40   but in the end, you need to sell computers to make money.

00:49:43   So wisely, when they made the iMac,

00:49:45   they made it cheap for an Apple computer

00:49:47   and the most mass market thing they could make.

00:49:50   It's cute, it's adorable,

00:49:51   it's attractive to even non-computer people.

00:49:53   This is the computer that's gonna save the company

00:49:55   because it's a consumer computer, right?

00:49:57   Now, but what happened is of course,

00:49:58   you have a success on your hands.

00:49:59   The iMac name gets a lot of cache.

00:50:01   In fact, it gets so much cache

00:50:03   that Apple starts putting i in front of all

00:50:04   its freaking products, right?

00:50:06   Including ones they had to buy from other people

00:50:08   like iPhone, the name I mean, not the phone.

00:50:10   And you know, it lasts for a long time.

00:50:14   And kind of what happens with the dream of the X Mac

00:50:17   is if you keep doing something for a long time,

00:50:20   the surrounding context changes.

00:50:22   And the thing that changed about the iMac,

00:50:25   yes, there was the thing that you mentioned

00:50:28   where Apple seemed very clear from the outside

00:50:31   that Apple was gonna say,

00:50:32   "Yeah, we're not doing the Mac Pro anymore.

00:50:33   We think we can get by with just making like an awesome iMac."

00:50:36   And they did make an awesome iMac, iMac Pro,

00:50:38   but they changed their mind before they even released it.

00:50:40   So forget about that.

00:50:41   There was that that happened.

00:50:42   But the other thing that happened, setting that aside,

00:50:45   over the course of many, many years,

00:50:48   is that it became plausible for everything about a computer

00:50:53   to be, everything about a good computer

00:50:56   to be in a fairly small self-contained package, right?

00:51:01   That it was essentially inevitable and reasonable and good

00:51:05   for the thing that started as a consumer computer

00:51:08   to move up market because technology changed in such a way

00:51:13   that it was no longer a terrible compromise

00:51:16   to take all the things of a computer

00:51:18   and stick it to the back of the screen essentially, right?

00:51:20   It wasn't that way in the beginning.

00:51:22   In the beginning, it was a bit of a compromise

00:51:24   and it was sort of a consumer play

00:51:25   and especially, you know,

00:51:26   with the one with the iMac G4

00:51:28   where they had the base and the thing

00:51:30   and then they glunged it on the back

00:51:31   but as time marched on, it became clear

00:51:34   that the march of technology, miniaturization, SSDs,

00:51:37   all that other stuff made it possible

00:51:39   to make a new kind of computer.

00:51:41   And the new kind of computer was beautiful screen,

00:51:44   powerful computer, one thing all in one.

00:51:49   And that wasn't possible back in the days of the iMac.

00:51:52   There was no like plausible iMac like computer

00:51:55   that had the guts of the giant suitcase size tower in it.

00:51:58   Technology wasn't there for that.

00:51:59   And the analogy I make with this is look at the insides

00:52:03   of like the original iMac or the Mac 2FX or a Mac SE

00:52:07   whatever and compare them to current Macs like the Mac Studio where you have a

00:52:13   system on a chip that has the CPU the GPU all the memory everything put into

00:52:18   one big square you can put it up on a slide the thing that's on that slide

00:52:21   when they show like the you know the M1 Ultra with all the RAM around and

00:52:25   everything that's like the entire motherboard practically of other

00:52:29   computers the USB controller is in there the Thunderbolt controls are in there

00:52:32   the video controllers and like everything is consolidated into one.

00:52:36   And why didn't we do that? Why weren't computers always designed?

00:52:40   But you couldn't, you couldn't put all that stuff in there.

00:52:42   The transistors were too big. There was no way to package that together.

00:52:45   So everything was separate. There were buses, two slots where you put in the RAM chips.

00:52:48   There was a CPU, there was a Northbridge, there was a Southbridge,

00:52:51   there was a Thunderbolt controller from Intel.

00:52:52   There was all these different chips all around there.

00:52:54   But as technology marched on, we were able to consolidate it all.

00:52:57   And it's inevitable and good that we do that because you get lots of benefits.

00:53:01   lower power, everything is faster, it's physically closer together, it is closer metaphorically,

00:53:06   you know, in terms of latency and everything. So the iMac just traveled that same path. Wait,

00:53:13   we have the technology now to make a reasonably powerful good computer, but also have it be fairly

00:53:19   quiet, and also have it be on the back of this slim thing that just looks like a monitor. And

00:53:24   that turns out to be a product that is attractive to a lot of people. It's not as fancy as a mid-sized

00:53:29   tower and you can look at it it's like oh but you've changed the iMac used to

00:53:32   be a consumer thing it's like yeah but now we can do a thing that we couldn't

00:53:35   do before that the all-in-one computer suddenly becomes something that is not

00:53:40   just for the lowest of the low end but that someone who's in the middle would

00:53:43   look at it not sneer and not feel bad that they're getting it because once

00:53:46   they get their very first one and I think we all have this experience like

00:53:49   well I never thought of myself as an iMac person but like once I got one I

00:53:53   was like you know what this computer is quiet this screen is gorgeous and it's

00:53:57   It's really fast and I love it.

00:53:58   And that's why people love these computers,

00:54:00   'cause they didn't realize I never thought of myself

00:54:02   as an all-in-one computer.

00:54:03   I always thought I had to have a tower.

00:54:04   How many people do we know like that?

00:54:05   I always thought I had to have a tower

00:54:06   'cause I do serious development work

00:54:07   or I work on Photoshop.

00:54:08   But once they get that first iMac,

00:54:10   especially the first 5K iMacs,

00:54:12   and they say, wow, I thought I could never do my work

00:54:15   as a designer with Photoshop on an all-in-one Mac,

00:54:18   but now apparently technology's there and I can do that.

00:54:20   And the iMac Pro is the ultimate expression of that.

00:54:23   It's like, if Apple really tries and does a good job at it,

00:54:26   setting aside the stupid nano texture, you know, 5k iMac.

00:54:29   If they do a good job of it,

00:54:30   you can even make a pretty passable, good,

00:54:33   pro-ish computer on the back of an iMac.

00:54:36   That is the wisdom of that is still questionable,

00:54:39   but in the middle range there,

00:54:41   I think it is inevitable and good

00:54:43   that the iMac had to travel up market

00:54:45   as technology changed in the same way

00:54:46   that all the guts of the, you know,

00:54:48   Macs have consolidated into a single system on a chip

00:54:50   because technology allows it and it has advantages.

00:54:54   It is attractive.

00:54:55   It is a natural and good evolution of that form.

00:54:59   I agree with you, but I think the challenge, and when I say the distortion of the iMac,

00:55:04   is I think I feel like the iMac needed to be too many things for too many people.

00:55:07   And what you saw was Apple straining where they would have their, you know, they had

00:55:12   their non-retina model for a while, and they kept the spinning—they had to keep the spinning

00:55:16   hard drive for a while.

00:55:17   And one of the consequences of keeping the spinning hard drive, whether it was the default

00:55:21   or whether it was the default in the fusion drive was also there, which was their hybrid

00:55:26   approach to try and have SSD speeds with the storage instead of like embracing just all

00:55:33   SSD because they couldn't because this was meant to be an introductory level computer

00:55:39   and had a price to match. And so you ended up with like the iMac Pro didn't need to go

00:55:44   down there and so they had the new cooling system in the iMac Pro, but they couldn't

00:55:47   do that in the iMac because they needed to have space for the spinning hard drive. And

00:55:52   I think that was when I say it was distorted, I would say that it ended up being a computer

00:55:56   that was really trying to cover a vast range in the middle ground of the Mac, sort of the

00:56:03   middle to the bottom. And that it could have been a better computer if it had just been

00:56:07   the bottom or just been the middle, but it had to be both because Apple had no other

00:56:12   Like that was literally it.

00:56:14   And I think that I look at the 24-inch iMac

00:56:17   and I think that maybe there's a little bit of freedom

00:56:19   in them making the decision.

00:56:20   Time has moved along and they have embraced SSDs now

00:56:23   and there's no spinning hard drive option anymore,

00:56:25   which is great, but like, it's just a fun computer.

00:56:28   And it just seems like simpler.

00:56:31   It doesn't need to bear the weight of the world

00:56:33   on its shoulders like maybe that other iMac did

00:56:35   because Apple wouldn't surround it with other products.

00:56:37   Whereas now we can have this debate

00:56:39   about there's a studio display

00:56:41   and can you attach, what do you attach to it?

00:56:44   You know, if you don't want to get an iMac,

00:56:46   you can buy a display and then you can attach

00:56:47   a Mac Studio to it or a Mac Mini to it or a laptop to it.

00:56:51   And it's just a little bit more of a conversation

00:56:54   than maybe was had by like people like me

00:56:58   when I was like, I guess I'll just get the 5K iMac.

00:57:00   I love the 5K iMac.

00:57:01   I'm not saying it was a bad computer.

00:57:02   I'm just saying that it led to this very kind of awkward

00:57:05   area where the iMac was kind of it.

00:57:08   Like you really just had to buy an iMac.

00:57:10   that was about your only option for a certain class of user.

00:57:14   - Yeah, it's kind of like they were so married to that name

00:57:17   'cause the name got such cache and such brand

00:57:20   that they didn't want to give up the name,

00:57:22   but when the opportunity presented itself

00:57:25   due to the advance of technology

00:57:26   to make a pretty darn good computer that's an all-in-one,

00:57:31   they took that opportunity, but they didn't want to give,

00:57:34   they didn't want to sort of give up the name for the low end

00:57:37   and they said, well, you know,

00:57:38   they decided to call that iMac,

00:57:39   It's like, hey, we've got it.

00:57:40   We're going to make computers and there we can make increasingly powerful and

00:57:44   amazing computers sort of culminating in the 5k is the ultimate, like we've done

00:57:47   it.

00:57:47   We've made an all in one computer that is good enough that people who would

00:57:51   formally never think of themselves as all in one customers will not only buy,

00:57:54   but they'll love. They're like, great. And of course, you know,

00:57:56   that's an iMac and that name is going to come along with it,

00:57:58   but they never gave up the low end.

00:58:01   And so once they sort of made that commitment to this is what the iMac is,

00:58:04   you can't really make a really cheap and also good low end computer using the philosophy

00:58:11   of the 5k iMac. That's why you have these machines. Well, how do we keep it the low

00:58:15   price? Well, I guess it'll have to be non retina and I guess it'll keep the spinning

00:58:18   disc. And those were not good computers, but they had committed to the design of the thing

00:58:23   they were going to call iMac because it was just one name. It would be weird to have,

00:58:28   you know, the 5k iMac be a totally different strategy of building a computer than the cheap

00:58:33   iMac but they just refused to let go of the low end and refused to not take the middle end and even the high end with

00:58:39   the pro thing and so yeah, I think the consumer side suffered now that they've sort of

00:58:44   reassigned the iMac back to be just the the low end

00:58:49   It's kind of ironic that oh and by the way now we have all the technology to make that low end one pretty fantastic

00:58:55   Because it's so thin and it's got SSDs and it's retina and it's like this would have been the fantasy high-end iMac of you

00:59:01   know, five, 10 years ago. Right. But now that's the low end one. Um, you know,

00:59:06   and it's good that it got the freedom one. Now you can have colors and it can be

00:59:08   fun and it can be less expensive and it is divorced from the need to sort of

00:59:13   say, Oh, well, but remember, we also have to have one of these that, uh,

00:59:17   that the fancy people want to use for their power things. No, we don't.

00:59:20   We can just be for low end. So it's, it's nice to have the name not stretched as

00:59:26   far. Um, that if,

00:59:27   if they had been able to give up on that branding and had called the 5k iMac something other

00:59:32   than an iMac that would have solved a lot of their problems and then they could have

00:59:35   sort of concentrated on well it was probably too late by then because they'd already committed

00:59:38   to that form factor. I think the iMac Pro is actually an example of like I think we've

00:59:42   stepped through some of the rationale that probably went into the creation of the iMac

00:59:46   Pro but that was in the era where they were like well no we're not gonna do a Mac Pro

00:59:50   anymore and this is this is what we're gonna do but the iMac Pro is what if we made an

00:59:54   the iMac and didn't worry about the low end.

00:59:56   And it's like, well, okay, we're going to embrace SSD and we're going to put in a good

01:00:00   cooling system.

01:00:01   But even then it was like literally physically exactly the same size and shape as the 5K.

01:00:05   It just so happens that it was an amazing feat of engineering to say, can we fit a pro

01:00:09   computer in exactly this?

01:00:10   And the only reason they were able to do it is like, well, the 5K iMac was designed to

01:00:14   have a three and a half inch disk drive.

01:00:16   And if we say we're never going to have that, we have a little bit more room.

01:00:18   But it's not as if they took the iMac row and said clean sheet of paper, iMac Pro.

01:00:22   What does it look like?

01:00:24   they just started with the 5K iMac shape.

01:00:26   They were going in that direction anyway,

01:00:27   so it's not too much of a stretch,

01:00:28   but I think that contrast will live on for a long time,

01:00:33   that there were two machines that were physically

01:00:35   exactly the same size and shape,

01:00:37   but one of them was a little bit darker,

01:00:39   and one of them was amazing, and one of them, not sucked,

01:00:41   but one of them was just terrible.

01:00:43   The loud fan, i9, nano texture, whatever monstrosity,

01:00:47   compare that to the iMac Pro,

01:00:49   which was just silent and competent and amazing,

01:00:53   not that we would have all been happy with it instead of a Mac Pro, it does not fill

01:00:56   the same needs as Apple discovered before they even shipped it.

01:00:59   But it just shows like two different philosophies.

01:01:03   One is taking the consumer iMac and trying to like, you know, crank it up to the nth

01:01:08   level and the other is saying, what if we say we're going to make a pro computer and

01:01:13   we don't have to like this, it's going to start at $5,000, right?

01:01:16   We don't have to worry about making the base version of this available for, you know, home

01:01:20   users to buy.

01:01:22   I think that this is why in some shape or form

01:01:27   the iMac will come back because I do think,

01:01:30   I mean, we've already said it, we think it's coming back.

01:01:32   Like there's room in here for something that is not like,

01:01:36   we're not gonna make a huge effort

01:01:37   because the Mac studio exists,

01:01:38   but there's still some room in there for iMac

01:01:41   to still be a good computer to have.

01:01:43   And maybe there's options and maybe in the end,

01:01:46   you can get even like an M1 or M2, I guess,

01:01:51   pro at the high end, but it's like as long as it fits in the envelope. But not, the goal

01:01:55   is not to get you up to an iMac with an M1 Ultra, right? Like, no, that's not going to

01:02:02   happen. It has a copper heat sink. It's not, we're not designing an iMac to do that. And

01:02:07   I think that's good. They shouldn't. Don't do that. And so I think that if we see a larger

01:02:14   iMac and as the iMac evolves, I think that they're going to be able to draw a line to

01:02:19   to say no further than this, which is, you know, a line must be drawn here.

01:02:23   See, I make a movie reference now.

01:02:25   Look at that.

01:02:26   Apple's biggest problem with this whole iMac thing is they spent many years,

01:02:30   uh, convincing people that they can have an all in one computer and it

01:02:35   will be satisfactory for them.

01:02:36   The 5k IMAX did that over the course of many years.

01:02:38   Those are people, like I said, who prior to the, to the, to the good iMacs,

01:02:42   like they would say, well, I'm never going to get an all in one.

01:02:44   That's for other people.

01:02:45   What I get are desktops or mini towers or like whatever, you know, I get,

01:02:49   I'm a Power Mac customer, right?

01:02:50   Apple did that.

01:02:51   Apple convinced those people.

01:02:53   You might not realize it,

01:02:54   but technology has moved on to the point where

01:02:56   actually if you buy this computer, you will love it.

01:02:59   Because you don't think you care about all-in-one.

01:03:02   You don't think you care.

01:03:02   It's like you have a giant suitcase next to your desk.

01:03:04   You don't care about desk space.

01:03:05   It's not like you care about it being all-in-one.

01:03:08   But then the 5K iMac came along

01:03:09   and it was one of the only options for people

01:03:10   and people loved the screen and they bought it.

01:03:12   And fast forward a few years,

01:03:14   and now they're not convinced that they need

01:03:18   a separate box to connect up to the thing.

01:03:20   They're like, it turns out after all these years,

01:03:22   I've been using just this iMac and it's been great for me.

01:03:26   For the people who never were convinced,

01:03:27   who always like me have just been buying

01:03:28   these stupid suitcases or whatever, that's great.

01:03:30   We love the Mac Studio and we love the Mac Pro,

01:03:33   but there's a whole bunch of people

01:03:34   that Apple convinced otherwise.

01:03:35   And now I'm not sure those people are going to like

01:03:39   be relishing the idea of switching back

01:03:42   to the more expensive, it must be noted,

01:03:44   Mac Studio and external display,

01:03:47   or even let's say equally priced,

01:03:51   better new Mac mini plus studio display,

01:03:54   now that they've lived in the all-in-one life for awhile.

01:03:57   - We will see how this evolves,

01:04:00   but it's fascinating to have the Mac studio

01:04:02   to let us have this conversation now.

01:04:04   I think that's great.

01:04:05   And honestly, and this is a sort of tangential topic,

01:04:08   but I wanted to mention it,

01:04:11   is like now that the studio display exists,

01:04:14   and I know that there were other displays before,

01:04:16   but to get an Apple branded display that is the using,

01:04:19   in this case, it's using the familiar 5K panel,

01:04:22   which is a great panel.

01:04:23   I know it's old.

01:04:24   It's been out there since the 5K iMac, but it's-

01:04:26   - This is something I need to check on.

01:04:28   Maybe- - It is the panel.

01:04:30   It is exactly the panel.

01:04:31   - And the reason, the only reason I question

01:04:33   whether it was the exact panel is 'cause I kept seeing

01:04:35   that it was 600 nits instead of 500,

01:04:37   but I don't actually know what the 5K iMac was.

01:04:39   The 5K iMac screen go to 600 nits?

01:04:40   - Yeah, I think maybe, but I can tell you,

01:04:43   I can't tell you who told me,

01:04:45   but you know who it was.

01:04:48   It's the same panel.

01:04:49   It is, that is what it is.

01:04:50   So it's familiar, it's not cutting edge, but it's familiar.

01:04:53   And it just opens up all this possibility.

01:04:56   And I had that moment, Jon, when I started to think,

01:05:01   I actually don't know.

01:05:03   I ordered a display and I ordered a Mac studio.

01:05:06   And I assume that that's where I'm gonna end up.

01:05:09   But I had a moment where I thought,

01:05:11   well, you know, those Apple Silicon laptops

01:05:13   are all pretty good too.

01:05:15   and all the Apple Silicon,

01:05:16   all the M1s are the same computer essentially.

01:05:20   So we could probably assume that the Mac studio

01:05:23   is going to behave a lot like a similarly configured

01:05:26   MacBook Pro, right?

01:05:28   So if that's the case, you know,

01:05:31   I just had that moment where I thought,

01:05:34   should I get a MacBook Pro?

01:05:36   Should I just keep my MacBook Air that's an M1,

01:05:39   but it's pretty good.

01:05:41   And I could just get the display

01:05:43   and the MacBook Air for a while, or maybe buy a MacBook Pro.

01:05:47   And it is a lot more money.

01:05:49   It's like $700 more to get the same configuration

01:05:52   in a MacBook Pro as in the base model Mac Studio.

01:05:55   It is a lot more to have it be a laptop

01:05:57   that you can take away with that beautiful screen.

01:05:59   But I did have that moment where I thought,

01:06:02   how committed am I to the desktop life,

01:06:04   given how good Apple Silicon is at docking to a display,

01:06:09   and that this display makes it,

01:06:12   And with the ports and all of that,

01:06:13   it's basically gonna be like an iMac for me,

01:06:17   except I could hang just a laptop off of it

01:06:20   and then unplug and take it away.

01:06:21   The desktop laptop thing, I guess is what I'm saying.

01:06:24   - Yeah, when I found out that the,

01:06:26   as far as I've been able to determine,

01:06:27   the chips aren't even clocked any different in the desktop.

01:06:31   Right?

01:06:32   It's the same if you get a MacBook Pro with an M1 Max.

01:06:35   Obviously I think that like this

01:06:37   must less likely to throttle in the studio,

01:06:38   but they're not even clocked different.

01:06:39   So when I was pricing all this stuff out,

01:06:41   I did, I had that thought and I said,

01:06:43   hmm, this is looking kind of expensive.

01:06:46   And if it really is just an M1 Max,

01:06:48   Apple already makes computers with an M1 Max in it.

01:06:50   You know, I can get a 14 inch laptop

01:06:53   or a 16 inch laptop with an M1 Max

01:06:54   and it's the same exact M1 Max.

01:06:56   - And if you don't want to pay for a Max,

01:06:57   you can get the Pro, which you can't get on the studio.

01:07:00   - Exactly, right.

01:07:01   But then I'd price it out and I realized,

01:07:03   oh, okay, well, you do pay more for the laptop.

01:07:05   I don't like laptops.

01:07:06   I was just thinking, is this a way to get a cheaper

01:07:09   sort of M1 Max desktop system?

01:07:11   And the answer is no, it's not a way to get, because they, because it comes with a whole

01:07:13   screen and a keyboard and all the stuff that I don't care about.

01:07:17   And you pay for that.

01:07:18   So it's kind of weird that like, if you, if you want that, if you want the laptop with

01:07:22   a monitor, it costs more, which I think is appropriate.

01:07:25   It costs more because you're getting, again, you're getting a whole other screen, a good

01:07:28   screen on top of that and a keyboard and a track pad and a case and miniaturization,

01:07:32   all that stuff that you don't get with the studio.

01:07:34   Yeah.

01:07:35   I came down to a couple of things for me.

01:07:37   One is I could use my MacBook Air, my M1 MacBook Air for a while and that allows me to kind

01:07:45   of put off until maybe the next chip generation a decision on this.

01:07:51   But you know how long is it going to be before there's another Mac Studio model right?

01:07:55   It's going to be a while right?

01:07:56   So maybe next year around this time.

01:07:58   Yeah exactly.

01:07:59   Yeah I do I do think that the cadence is going to be Apple's just going to refresh everything

01:08:03   with the same thing the next year and that's just how it's going to be.

01:08:06   once they get this all up and running.

01:08:08   But, so I could do that,

01:08:10   and I could put off making a decision for a little while.

01:08:14   Or I could roll down my MacBook Air

01:08:17   to someone else in my family who has an Intel MacBook Air,

01:08:20   and they would get all the delight

01:08:21   of having an M1 MacBook Air,

01:08:22   and then I could buy a MacBook Pro.

01:08:25   I don't use the laptop very much at all.

01:08:27   I am not a laptop person.

01:08:28   And I think I've just decided the Studio is a better fit

01:08:31   for me because I have the MacBook Air,

01:08:34   which I use a little bit,

01:08:36   it's enough for using a little bit,

01:08:39   it's gonna be disappointing if that's my only Mac,

01:08:42   because it's not that fast at some of those higher end,

01:08:46   like audio plugin things that I do.

01:08:48   So I'm gonna be disappointed.

01:08:49   Would I be better off doing what I've been doing

01:08:52   for the last few years,

01:08:53   which is have a lot of power on my desk

01:08:56   and a little underpowered, but perfectly fine laptop

01:08:58   for when I really need to travel somewhere.

01:09:00   For me, I think that's probably the right decision.

01:09:04   However, what strikes me about the existence

01:09:06   of the studio display and how good Apple Silicon laptops are

01:09:10   is I think for a lot of people,

01:09:12   that's not the right decision.

01:09:13   I think if you use a laptop a lot,

01:09:15   but you also sit at a desk a lot,

01:09:17   you kind of go back and forth.

01:09:18   Like an Apple Silicon laptop and this studio display

01:09:23   seem to be like the right combination.

01:09:26   That's a really strong combination

01:09:30   if you do need a laptop,

01:09:31   but I'm not sure I'm convinced about the desktop/laptop thing,

01:09:34   at least for me, because I don't use the laptop enough.

01:09:37   -Yeah, a point that I meant to bring up on the last ATP

01:09:39   but neglected to.

01:09:41   It's a little bit mind-bending to think about,

01:09:45   but do you remember the DTK that Apple shipped to developers

01:09:51   for developing their Mac software on ARM

01:09:54   before the ARM Macs were actually out?

01:09:56   -Right. -That had an A12Z in it.

01:10:00   the Apple Studio display has an A13 in it.

01:10:02   - Yes.

01:10:03   - That Apple Studio display, not the way it is now,

01:10:07   but like with a similar parts list,

01:10:10   that Apple Studio display could be an entire Mac

01:10:14   that runs macOS.

01:10:15   It would need storage and IO and you know,

01:10:17   like it's not like you can just take the product

01:10:19   and run macOS on it.

01:10:19   But what I'm saying is they put an A13 in there,

01:10:21   which is more powerful than the process

01:10:23   of the system on a chip that they shipped with their DTK

01:10:27   for developing and testing your applications on ARM.

01:10:30   I think that's why a lot of the rumors were confused

01:10:33   that they thought that display itself

01:10:35   was a new fancy iMac, a new 27-inch iMac.

01:10:40   It's got no chin, you know, it's got speakers,

01:10:42   it's got microphones, it's got a camera on it.

01:10:45   - It's got a processor.

01:10:46   - And it's got an A13 in it, and we said like,

01:10:48   oh, the Apple Silicon, this, that.

01:10:50   It has an Apple Silicon chip in it,

01:10:52   and not a particularly slow one.

01:10:54   It's not as fast as the M1.

01:10:56   The M1 is based on the A14 cores,

01:10:58   and it's got a lot of them.

01:10:58   I'm not saying it would be a speedy computer,

01:11:00   but I had one of those DTKs,

01:11:02   and Mac OS ran surprisingly well on an A12Z.

01:11:07   Many things it did faster than my 2019 Mac Pro

01:11:10   that it was sitting right next to,

01:11:11   just because it was ARM,

01:11:11   and they do certain things a lot faster

01:11:13   for whatever reasons.

01:11:14   So it's kind of, if you're thinking like,

01:11:18   could Apple ever make a 27-inch iMac?

01:11:23   Where would they put all the computer guts or whatever?

01:11:25   Like the A13 is already in their monitor.

01:11:28   And yeah, I know you need IO, you need the ports,

01:11:31   you need an SSD in there.

01:11:32   But you know, if you look at how the guts

01:11:34   of the 24-inch iMac are currently packaged,

01:11:36   they're all in the chin and it's almost nothing.

01:11:38   It's really all about the screen.

01:11:40   Yeah.

01:11:42   - Yeah, well, cheers to all the desktop laptop people

01:11:46   out there, but I think Mac Studio is in my future.

01:11:48   I haven't canceled that order.

01:11:50   I'm gonna get one.

01:11:51   I think I'm gonna be happy with it.

01:11:53   I thought about the Ultra and then I laughed

01:11:57   and didn't order it because I don't need that.

01:12:01   - You need to be able to go get a cup of tea

01:12:03   while your isotope things are running.

01:12:05   - Yeah, right.

01:12:06   I don't wanna have to get a cup of tea,

01:12:09   make a whole pot of tea and then bring it back

01:12:13   for the isotope thing to finish running.

01:12:14   I want it to just be like to get a cup of tea.

01:12:16   I want it to be that much cut in half.

01:12:18   - But you don't wanna be halfway through making your tea

01:12:19   and the thing is done.

01:12:20   - No, I don't.

01:12:21   No, that's true too.

01:12:22   - No, no, that would be outrageous.

01:12:23   Yeah, no, no, no ultra for me, forget it.

01:12:25   That would be, that would be crazy.

01:12:27   Okay, we are gonna do some Ask Upgrade,

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01:15:03   Okay, it is time for Ask Upgrade.

01:15:07   Jon, you ready?

01:15:08   - I am.

01:15:10   - This is a little like Ask ATP, except we did it first.

01:15:13   - It's true.

01:15:14   Steven says, "Does it bother you that the new studio display is basically just the same 5K display panel that was released in October of 2014 on the 27-inch iMac?"

01:15:23   We've established it is. I think the nit rating is higher. I think maybe it's just that the backlight is a little bit brighter, but the actual panel itself is the same.

01:15:33   Does it bother you that their brand new 2022 display is the iMac display that has been around for many, many years?

01:15:43   Well, that's the thing about it.

01:15:44   When we were saying if it's the same exact display, do you remember in the early

01:15:47   days of the 5k iMac, there was like, there were two different manufacturers

01:15:50   of the display or like one of them had image retention issues.

01:15:53   Yeah.

01:15:53   Right.

01:15:54   I think like, even though we say it's the quote unquote, the same, um, I think even

01:15:58   just over the life of the 5k iMac, there have been revisions to that panel to

01:16:02   improve it in various ways, whether it's avoiding image retention or maybe better

01:16:06   color reproduction or better viewing angles, because panels like this get

01:16:09   revised, right?

01:16:09   So even if it is more or less the same,

01:16:13   I'm thinking that this is probably the latest evolution

01:16:16   of that same 5K panel.

01:16:19   But spec wise, yeah, it's not HDR, it's not high refresh,

01:16:21   it is a 5K panel.

01:16:23   If you put this, went back in time,

01:16:24   I put this on the original 5K iMac,

01:16:26   no one would notice except that maybe it, you know,

01:16:27   didn't get image retention and you know,

01:16:29   it's a little tiny bit brighter, right?

01:16:31   And that's why I think it doesn't bother me

01:16:33   because for the longest time, everyone's been saying,

01:16:36   you know, I love the 5K iMac, I would love to have,

01:16:39   but I don't, you know, I have a tower computer

01:16:41   or I have something else or I have a laptop,

01:16:43   I would love to have that screen hooked up to my laptop

01:16:46   or my tower Mac or whatever.

01:16:48   Why can't I do that?

01:16:49   Why can't I just buy that screen?

01:16:50   And then LG came along and said, here you go,

01:16:51   you can buy that panel in this terrible case

01:16:54   that has many problems that seem like they shouldn't exist,

01:16:57   but do with like flaky USB ports and a terrible stand

01:17:00   and it interferes with your wifi and all those other things.

01:17:03   And so I feel like, you know, it doesn't bother me

01:17:06   that this is what everybody wanted and Apple delivered it.

01:17:08   and they delivered it in a straightforward way by saying,

01:17:11   by not introducing essentially a 5K display that is,

01:17:15   you know, proportionally less expensive than the 6K.

01:17:18   This is a 5K display that is way less expensive

01:17:20   than if you took the 6K and scaled it down to 5K

01:17:23   in terms of price.

01:17:24   And that's what people wanted and that's what they got.

01:17:26   So I'm not disappointed or bothered.

01:17:29   I'm happy because I think it makes perfect sense.

01:17:32   And for tons of people, like to this day,

01:17:35   That 5K iMac screen is still a gorgeous screen.

01:17:39   I have no complaints about it, you know, for what it is.

01:17:43   And once I got rid of the image retention issues

01:17:45   and all that other stuff, it's, you know,

01:17:47   it's still as good as it ever was.

01:17:49   - Yeah, it doesn't do HDR.

01:17:51   And like, I have no doubt that there will be

01:17:53   a display panel technology that puts it to shame

01:17:56   and that Apple itself will probably release at some point

01:18:00   a more expensive but nicer panel that maybe uses mini LED.

01:18:05   - QD OLED.

01:18:07   - Yeah, exactly.

01:18:08   I love quantum dots and all the other quanta

01:18:12   that are out there.

01:18:13   Yeah, there are so many other technologies.

01:18:14   And of course, whether it's in six months or in two years,

01:18:17   there will be, I think, an Apple display

01:18:19   that outdoes this one.

01:18:21   This one may still stick around even at that point,

01:18:24   and then there'll be one above it.

01:18:26   But it doesn't bother me?

01:18:28   No, because it's good.

01:18:29   It's good and it's what I wanted for a long time,

01:18:32   and I think it'll last a long time.

01:18:34   I'm not so desperate for HDR or anything like that.

01:18:39   HDR is nice, but it's not necessary for my workflow.

01:18:43   And if it was, I guess I would have bought

01:18:44   a Studio Display XDR.

01:18:46   So I'm happy with it too.

01:18:49   I would have been okay if it had had

01:18:52   other fantastic display technology in it,

01:18:54   but the fact that it's got center stage, right?

01:18:58   And that it's got its microphones

01:18:59   and its speakers and all of that.

01:19:00   And we'll see when the reviews come out

01:19:02   how it actually is at all of those things.

01:19:04   But like, it's not just,

01:19:06   we threw a panel in a box and gave it to you.

01:19:09   It is a lot more than that.

01:19:11   And it's an Apple display.

01:19:12   So like, I'm okay with it.

01:19:15   - I actually am kind of desperate for HDR,

01:19:16   but the thing is like,

01:19:17   the reason it's not disappointing is like,

01:19:19   so show me the other 5K high refresh rate HDR display

01:19:24   for an affordable price that you would get otherwise.

01:19:26   Like it's, they didn't, you know, it was,

01:19:28   it remained to be seen whether it was feasible for Apple,

01:19:31   whether that technology existed.

01:19:32   Like, because they put the laptop screens out

01:19:34   and laptop screens are phenomenal.

01:19:35   It's like, wow, if they can do that in a laptop screen,

01:19:38   maybe they can make a 5K screen that has all those things.

01:19:41   But they didn't, and no one else has either.

01:19:43   Like if you look for screens that come close to these specs,

01:19:46   they are very expensive.

01:19:48   They start, you know, thousands of dollars,

01:19:50   through two, three, four, $5,000

01:19:52   for screens that do those things

01:19:54   that are essentially 5K iMac size screens,

01:19:57   but also HDR and iRefresh, right?

01:19:59   And that's a totally different product.

01:20:00   And we've already basically got that with the XDR, right?

01:20:02   So if Apple came out with this,

01:20:04   but everybody else had, you know,

01:20:06   1600 nits high refresh monitors at the same size

01:20:11   in like the PC world, for example,

01:20:13   yeah, then we'd all be disappointed.

01:20:15   But I don't see how you can be disappointed

01:20:17   because it's like, well, what should they have done instead?

01:20:19   Like there are no alternatives at this price

01:20:21   and Apple should have a monitor at this price

01:20:23   and now they do.

01:20:25   - Yeah, it'll come, it'll happen.

01:20:26   But yeah, this is, I'm not disappointed

01:20:29   by the existence of this product right at the moment.

01:20:31   And I bought one, so there you go.

01:20:35   I'll be happy with it.

01:20:36   And the next one won't cost what this one costs, right?

01:20:40   (laughs)

01:20:41   If it is an HDR display,

01:20:44   if it's whether it's 27 or it's larger,

01:20:46   it's gonna be more expensive.

01:20:49   - Probably, but I got to point out on ADP,

01:20:52   there's that, it's not Dell's Alienware,

01:20:54   but Dell bought Alienware.

01:20:55   There is the Alienware QD OLED gaming monitor.

01:21:00   It's not retina.

01:21:01   I forget what the resolution is.

01:21:02   It's a weird like widescreen aspect ratio curved thing.

01:21:05   So it's not like, it's not suitable for Mac use

01:21:08   'cause it's not the sort of DPI

01:21:09   and proportions that we're used to,

01:21:11   but it is less than $2,000.

01:21:13   It's like $1,300 or something.

01:21:14   It's a 34 inch wide aspect ratio, $1,300 QD OLED.

01:21:18   If that's how these things are gonna be priced,

01:21:22   it is conceivable that in several years time,

01:21:25   this 5K screen can be replaced with a screen

01:21:29   that is HDR, high refresh, you know,

01:21:32   perfect blacks, QD OLED thing

01:21:34   for exactly the same price as it is now.

01:21:36   Like that's the magic of technology.

01:21:37   We just have to make the next leap

01:21:38   to the next screen tech.

01:21:40   Mini LED is not that tech.

01:21:41   Mini LED is a tech that has its own compromises,

01:21:45   but it's also more expensive than this.

01:21:46   QD OLED seems like a pure win,

01:21:48   kind of like the M1 where it's like,

01:21:50   oh, it's gonna be cheaper and it's gonna be better

01:21:52   and it's gonna be faster and it's gonna take less power.

01:21:54   QD OLED seems like it might be the display technology

01:21:57   equivalent of that if current trends continue.

01:21:59   - Well, when that happens,

01:22:01   then we hand down our studio displays

01:22:03   and they live another lifetime somewhere else.

01:22:07   It's okay.

01:22:07   Different Steven wants to know, this is with a pH.

01:22:12   The first one was with a V.

01:22:14   What are your Apple TV frame rate settings?

01:22:16   Do you bypass the TV's processor

01:22:18   and let the Apple TV do the upscaling for non 4K content?

01:22:23   This question presupposes that I have a 4K TV and I do not.

01:22:27   So my Apple TV doesn't need to do any upscaling

01:22:30   and neither does my TV.

01:22:31   - Just since the 1080p.

01:22:32   - So you don't have 4K or HDR, you just have a plasma.

01:22:36   - That's right.

01:22:37   - The last great plasma.

01:22:38   - I'm working on changing that this year.

01:22:41   But yeah, I don't do that.

01:22:42   In terms of the other settings that,

01:22:43   the main thing I have it set to is the feature

01:22:45   that I wanted for a long time, which is the,

01:22:47   what are they called?

01:22:47   Like match frame rate setting or whatever,

01:22:50   so that I can watch 24 frames per second content

01:22:53   and actually display it at 24 frames per second.

01:22:55   'Cause my television can do 24 frames per second.

01:22:58   So if the Apple TV outputs it, my TV can display it.

01:23:00   It's one of the advantages of plasma

01:23:02   over some of the early LED LCD stuff

01:23:05   is that many of the early LCDs only did 60 Hertz refresh.

01:23:09   And if you have 24 frames per second content,

01:23:11   the math doesn't work out very well there.

01:23:14   But my TV can literally do 24 frames per second.

01:23:16   And now Apple TV can output that

01:23:18   with the match frame rate thing.

01:23:19   And so that's what I do.

01:23:21   - Yeah, I match frame rate and I do match,

01:23:24   and I have Apple do the resolution, I want to say.

01:23:28   I think I've got Apple TV doing the resolution

01:23:30   and then I'm also matching HDR,

01:23:35   which the problem with matching HDR is,

01:23:39   I was having some issues with certain shows

01:23:42   basically turning purple,

01:23:44   but it turned out that by replacing my receiver

01:23:48   and a bunch of my cables,

01:23:50   the matching HDR actually seems to work now.

01:23:52   So I'm back to just sort of matching whatever is getting --

01:23:57   whatever is in the content, and it seems to work okay.

01:24:01   -In terms of upscaling,

01:24:03   if you don't have a very, very fancy TV,

01:24:06   like read as an expensive TV,

01:24:08   chances are good that the upscaling that's being done

01:24:10   in the Apple Silicon that's in your Apple TV

01:24:12   is better than what's going to be done by the,

01:24:15   you know, low-end media tech chip in your,

01:24:17   you know, like reasonably priced television, right?

01:24:21   I mean, you can try them both ways

01:24:22   and see if you can tell the difference.

01:24:23   You can't tell the difference who cares,

01:24:24   but I'm like Apple's image processing in general

01:24:27   is pretty good.

01:24:28   And they share their, you know,

01:24:30   system on a chips across their phones and their iPads

01:24:32   and their Macs and yes, even their Apple TVs.

01:24:34   And so that Apple TV is getting the benefit

01:24:37   of an image processing section of its system on a chip

01:24:41   that was developed for an iPhone several years ago.

01:24:45   Joey asks, "I know it's not gonna happen,

01:24:48   but an M1 Ultra GPU better than an Nvidia 3090

01:24:51   deserves to play games.

01:24:53   What's stopping macOS from being able to run Windows games

01:24:55   in a translation layer,

01:24:57   a la the well-regarded Steam Deck handheld?"

01:25:01   - I think Joey must be talking about a product

01:25:03   that I haven't heard of

01:25:03   because I don't know what the well-regarded Steam Deck is.

01:25:06   I know what the actual Steam Deck is,

01:25:07   and it is not well-regarded.

01:25:09   Here's why this is a problem.

01:25:12   So when you have, Steam Deck runs Linux, right?

01:25:14   but it wants to run Windows, games that run on Windows.

01:25:17   So it has this translation layer where it translates

01:25:19   like the DirectX type APIs that are available on Windows

01:25:22   and tries to make them available on Linux.

01:25:24   And so the games can run,

01:25:25   even though they were not originally written

01:25:27   to run on Linux, you can take a Windows game

01:25:28   and run it on Linux.

01:25:29   That's super hard to do.

01:25:32   The game developers, if these game developers

01:25:35   are not totally on board with you,

01:25:37   which they probably aren't,

01:25:38   they didn't develop their games against running

01:25:41   in a Windows translation layer on Linux.

01:25:42   They didn't QA them against running on Steam Deck, right?

01:25:46   You know, to get the game sort of certified

01:25:48   and sold on Steam is a lower bar

01:25:50   than actually developing on that from day one.

01:25:53   It's really difficult to chase that around

01:25:55   because you don't control the platform

01:25:56   that you're imitating.

01:25:57   Windows changes all the time,

01:25:59   and you have to constantly keep up with like,

01:26:01   oh, here's my shim layer on top of Linux

01:26:03   or on top of Mac OS that runs the Windows games.

01:26:06   And all I've seen from people using Steam Deck

01:26:08   is that it's not as reliable an experience

01:26:12   as running, playing a Windows game on actual Windows

01:26:15   or on the Xbox,

01:26:16   'cause that's what the games were developed against.

01:26:18   It's kind of a miracle and amazing that it works.

01:26:21   And the performance is usually pretty good too,

01:26:23   but things like bugs where it gets frozen

01:26:25   or there's a glitch or you can't make progress

01:26:27   at this part of the game or it crashes,

01:26:29   like those are things that are very frustrating for gamers.

01:26:34   And it's very difficult as the creators of Steam Deck

01:26:39   to know how to handle that,

01:26:40   because what are you going to do?

01:26:41   chase down every bug in every other game and then talk to the game developer and

01:26:43   say hey we discover and when you run your game on our weird emulation layer

01:26:46   it does this weird thing can you please fix it for us repeat that by every

01:26:50   single game that has some kind of bug that runs enough a steam deck and then

01:26:54   add to that the fact that valve games are their bread and butter they love

01:26:58   games they're all about games they understand games Apple that's not true

01:27:02   none of those things are true of Apple Apple doesn't understand games they don't

01:27:05   really love them in the same way at least not these type of games they're

01:27:07   on Steam Deck.

01:27:09   And so Apple is not inclined to do that type of thing.

01:27:13   And I think it's a bad idea to even try to do that thing.

01:27:16   It's a bit of a fool's errand.

01:27:18   I don't think like Valve and Steam will be successful

01:27:22   at doing that.

01:27:23   And I think Apple and other companies should not even try.

01:27:26   You either get people to develop games natively for you

01:27:28   or you don't.

01:27:30   But trying to build and field a commercial platform

01:27:33   where you're imitating another platform is a sucker's bet.

01:27:37   We have a friend in a Slack that we're both in

01:27:40   who regales us with tales of using crossover

01:27:44   to play Windows games on his Mac.

01:27:47   And he's a positive guy and often says things like,

01:27:51   "Ah, there was an update released to this game

01:27:54   that fixed the issue where it was all weird and blocky,

01:27:57   and now it's playable."

01:27:59   And it's the, you know, on one level,

01:28:01   I'm very happy for him that he can play these games

01:28:04   and that he considers that a win,

01:28:06   that he can play these games on the Mac.

01:28:07   On the other hand, every time I look at those things

01:28:10   that he says, I think, no, no, no, no, don't.

01:28:14   'Cause it's, crossover is using Wine,

01:28:16   so it's a Windows code translator.

01:28:19   And they, apparently I saw a very funny tweet

01:28:21   that even though you can't use 32-bit apps on modern macOS,

01:28:26   Rosetta will actually emulate 32-bit code and they use it.

01:28:30   You know, it's a fun thing,

01:28:33   but like you don't build a platform on something like that.

01:28:37   I hear what Joey is saying here,

01:28:40   which is look at the GPU's on these things.

01:28:43   Let's use them for something.

01:28:45   I get it.

01:28:46   I totally get it.

01:28:48   Let us use it for something.

01:28:49   But I think it's gonna need to be native for, you know,

01:28:53   iOS or Mac, one of those.

01:28:55   - I mean, I think Apple Arcade games will run really well,

01:28:57   really, really well in these things.

01:28:58   - Oh yeah.

01:28:59   - And it kind of opens the door if someone was inclined

01:29:02   to make an Apple Arcade game whose graphics scale up

01:29:06   to be much more impressive on the Mac

01:29:08   than they are on the iPad.

01:29:09   I'm not sure if anyone has taken that opportunity.

01:29:11   Most of the Apple Arcade games that I've seen

01:29:13   look more or less the same.

01:29:14   I mean, higher res on the Mac maybe,

01:29:16   but there's nothing drastic about them.

01:29:18   Whereas PC games, even just within a single platform,

01:29:20   just within the realm of PC,

01:29:21   most games have historically come with settings

01:29:25   so you can crank them way down for a weaker PC

01:29:27   and they look ugly,

01:29:28   or way, way, way up for your super high-end one.

01:29:31   And it would be nice if the games that Apple actually is,

01:29:35   you know, does have a platform for basically iOS games.

01:29:38   It would be nice if we saw more iOS games doing that.

01:29:42   And I say Apple Arcade because Apple Arcade games

01:29:44   have to be available on Apple TV and iPhone and Mac, right?

01:29:49   That's a requirement to be an Apple Arcade game.

01:29:52   Otherwise, like for the most part,

01:29:53   iOS developers don't care about the Mac.

01:29:55   But when Apple forces them to, they do.

01:29:57   And when they do that,

01:29:58   it would be neat to see a graphic style

01:29:59   Or you could crank it up to ultra and it would look really good on an M1 Ultra.

01:30:04   Alright, this question is silly, but I think there's something behind it that I think is

01:30:09   interesting.

01:30:10   This is from Jeff.

01:30:11   The year is 2036.

01:30:12   John Syracuse's Mac Pro dies.

01:30:14   No Macs run Windows in a fashion that play games decently and streaming games is still

01:30:18   subpar.

01:30:19   Would John consider buying a Windows PC?

01:30:22   Now, John, I'm going to let you answer, but first I just want to say John won't even buy

01:30:27   an Xbox.

01:30:28   So I think this is really unlikely, but you have talked about using boot camp.

01:30:35   And I have a boot camp thing set up on my iMac Pro that, you know, when I switch to

01:30:39   a Mac Studio, I'm going to lose it.

01:30:40   So how are you feeling about that, about the having a system that you can boot into to

01:30:45   play Windows games if you no longer have an Intel Mac?

01:30:51   Well, to be clear, the Mac Studio that I'm thinking about buying would not be for me.

01:30:55   It would be for my wife.

01:30:56   I still have one.

01:30:57   on to your Mac Pro.

01:30:58   My big Mac Pro, yeah.

01:30:59   At the very least, I've got to see what the Mac Pro that Apple teased at the end of its

01:31:03   event or is that going to be like?

01:31:05   What will happen in 2036 then when your Mac Pro dies?

01:31:08   Yeah.

01:31:09   Well, so in 2036 will I be running a Mac Pro or will I be running a Mac Studio by that

01:31:14   point or some other thing that's not a Mac Pro.

01:31:16   But either way, the real question is what kind of calamity would have to befall you

01:31:21   to get you to buy a Windows PC?

01:31:22   Yes.

01:31:23   And the real problem with that is I don't like Windows.

01:31:27   I'm familiar enough with it to know that that hasn't changed over the years as I've installed various versions of Windows, you know

01:31:33   XP Windows 7, I don't think I've ever had Vista, Windows 8 and now Windows 10. I purchased these Windows, you know

01:31:39   Oh, yeah copies of Windows and install them in boot camp and use them in various Macs and I use them to play games

01:31:44   I don't think I would get a Windows PC though because

01:31:48   Especially with the way Microsoft is running its gaming business lately

01:31:51   I'm not interested in Windows at all

01:31:54   I'm only interested in the games and most of the games that are available on Windows are also available at the very least

01:32:01   They're available on Xbox

01:32:02   But they're also very often available on other platforms as well

01:32:05   Like that's the strategy as Microsoft is pursuing to not sort of to be less about the exclusives or whatever

01:32:11   So it just so happens so far there haven't been any games that are exclusive to Xbox

01:32:17   That have caused me to buy an Xbox and the games that are exclusive to PC

01:32:22   I've been able to play on my Mac, but I think in the grand scheme of things if current trends continue

01:32:27   That's very it's less and less likely with every passing year that there's going to be a game that I just must play

01:32:32   That I can't play

01:32:35   You know that I have to get a Windows PC to play

01:32:37   Even you mentioned crossover last time even if I was desperate to do that

01:32:41   although I said it's a terrible idea to sort of build a platform like Steam Deck on top of sort of a translation layer a

01:32:46   product like crossover makes perfect sense because if you're like

01:32:49   If my choice is I have to buy a Windows PC

01:32:52   Or I should try I could get crossover and just see how it does you know a crossover running on

01:32:56   You know an Apple silicon thing where it's doing translation, and you know translating from x86 to arm just for this one game

01:33:03   I want to play I try that product out

01:33:05   And you know if it works at all it's kind of amazing and it saved me a lot of money because it's way cheaper to buy

01:33:10   Crossover and one game than it is to build a you know Windows PC

01:33:14   But you know, I don't I can't do the math in 2036

01:33:17   The real problem is and you know, even if I had made the decisions like well

01:33:20   There's this game that I just have to play and all there's no x86

01:33:24   Computers in my house anymore except for in the attic and I really need to play that game

01:33:29   It's not available on an Xbox console

01:33:31   So I have to buy a Windows PC

01:33:32   The real thing that's gonna be right me from doing that is that I have no place to put a Windows PC in my house

01:33:37   like literally

01:33:37   I don't have like a desk but the chair in front of it to put it on and

01:33:40   And in the end, that will prevent me from buying a Windows PC because I'm not going to displace my Mac or my wife's Mac.

01:33:47   I currently have no place to put a Windows PC.

01:33:50   Maybe in 2036 all my kids left the house and I can re-commandeer one of their rooms.

01:33:54   But I'm not sure how that's gonna go and maybe we'll move to a house without bedrooms or whatever.

01:33:58   I just don't have room for it.

01:33:59   Would you buy an Xbox ever?

01:34:02   Well, this is like Green Eggs and Ham now. Would you?

01:34:06   - I would buy an Xbox before I'd buy a Windows PC,

01:34:10   just because like the Xbox is so clearly a gaming thing

01:34:14   and I don't have to deal with Windows, right?

01:34:15   I don't like Windows.

01:34:17   I don't want to deal with Windows.

01:34:18   I don't, you know, I'd rather it just be more plug and play

01:34:20   or whatever in the Xbox is that.

01:34:22   - Right.

01:34:23   All right.

01:34:26   Let's go to this next question then, which is related.

01:34:29   Andy asks, "I know that John usually archives

01:34:32   his old Macs in the attic,

01:34:35   but would he consider selling his 2019 Mac Pro to fund the purchase of an Apple

01:34:40   Silicon equivalent?

01:34:42   I would sell it if I needed to do it financially,

01:34:46   but if I didn't need to do it financially,

01:34:48   the my 2019 Mac Pro has tremendous sentimental value considering I waited 10

01:34:52   years for Apple to make this computer and they finally did and I'm super happy

01:34:56   with it. It's one of my favorite computers that I've ever owned.

01:34:58   I know it's selling ridiculous and no,

01:35:00   I don't quote unquote need it for what I do with my computer,

01:35:02   but it makes me happy and it made me happy after a long wait of me not being happy with the computers that I was selling.

01:35:09   So in the absence of me desperately needing money, this one's definitely a keeper.

01:35:13   All right. Nathan asks, "Will a more powerful Mac Mini with an M1 Pro be possible with the existing cooling?"

01:35:26   Have you looked inside the M1 Mac Mini?

01:35:31   - It's like, it's awful, yeah.

01:35:35   - But the thing is they say with the existing cooling.

01:35:37   So I think, I think yes, yes.

01:35:41   Like here's the way to think about it.

01:35:43   Look at the cooling that's in an M1 Pro based laptop.

01:35:46   Is the cooling in the Mac mini beefier than that?

01:35:48   Yeah, it is.

01:35:49   The fans are taller, they move more air, you can do it.

01:35:53   That said, I feel like if you were going to put an M1 Pro

01:35:57   in a Mac mini and I think Apple probably will eventually,

01:35:59   it's an opportunity to fill some of the empty space

01:36:02   that's inside if you keep the case the same.

01:36:04   If you don't keep the case the same,

01:36:05   because the rumors are that it's like a lowercase

01:36:07   with the glass top and all this other crap, right?

01:36:09   But if you kept the case exactly the same

01:36:11   and put an M1 Pro in there,

01:36:13   it would be an opportunity to maybe think about,

01:36:15   maybe we could, you know,

01:36:16   'cause you've got all that empty space or whatever,

01:36:17   but I don't think you need,

01:36:19   I don't think you need a bigger case.

01:36:21   And like I said, if the rumors turn out to be true,

01:36:23   that the M1 Pro-based Mac Mini will actually be smaller

01:36:26   than the current model.

01:36:27   - Show-offs, just a bunch of show-offs.

01:36:29   Brian Anne Brooks wrote in with a related question,

01:36:32   which is, "Where's the M1 Pro chip in the desktop?

01:36:35   More specifically, what's the option

01:36:36   when M1 has enough power,

01:36:37   but more than 16 gigs of RAM is needed?

01:36:40   It's quite a jump from the Mini to the Studio

01:36:42   or a MacBook Pro.

01:36:42   Does this come when the Mini is upgraded to the M2?"

01:36:45   This is that kind of missing piece.

01:36:48   And like I said earlier, I feel like there's a,

01:36:51   it's a factor of the fact

01:36:53   that Apple is undergoing a chip transition,

01:36:56   'cause I do think that there will be an option,

01:36:58   probably in a Mac mini, whether it's an M1 Pro Mac mini

01:37:02   or an M2, if the M2 allows for more RAM,

01:37:06   I think it's gonna happen.

01:37:08   But yeah, it's a fair question right this moment,

01:37:11   which is, you either have the straight up M1

01:37:15   or you have to go all the way up to the M1 Macs

01:37:17   in the Mac studio right now.

01:37:19   - Yeah, that's one of the big downsides

01:37:21   of the everything being packaged in all-in-one thing

01:37:23   is that you don't get to scale the sort of CPU

01:37:28   and the RAM separately there of a piece.

01:37:30   And Apple makes a decision about what they think

01:37:32   is an appropriate combination.

01:37:33   And if you disagree with that decision

01:37:34   or it doesn't fit your needs, tough luck.

01:37:36   This is one of, for me, one of the most important things

01:37:40   that I'm looking at in the M2 transition

01:37:43   is does Apple make a different choice

01:37:45   about the max RAM on the M2?

01:37:47   - Yeah. - M1 maxes at 16.

01:37:50   If the M2 also maxes at 16, that to me would be,

01:37:54   I mean, it's not the end of the world,

01:37:55   but it would be slightly disappointing to me.

01:37:57   I feel like Apple would have more flexibility in the max that it sells if the M2 can hit

01:38:02   32 gigs.

01:38:04   It's not a deal breaker, it's not a big deal, it would be fine if it maxed at 16, but I

01:38:08   really do hope that the M2 maxes at 32 just because it will make it less... that tie between

01:38:15   the CPU, GPU, and the RAM, it will make that tie feel less painful if there are more choices,

01:38:21   you know, that it doesn't, you know,

01:38:22   that you don't have to make that leap

01:38:24   to a whole larger big thing

01:38:27   if you just want a little bit more RAM.

01:38:29   - Yeah, but I also think that the Mac Mini

01:38:32   came out when the M1 was the only M1 chip.

01:38:35   You know, it was its family, it was itself.

01:38:38   And now I think, I'm actually a big proponent of this.

01:38:42   I think you're gonna see M1 Pro or M2 Pro or whatever it is

01:38:45   in a bunch of systems that currently are M1 only,

01:38:48   not the MacBook Air maybe, but like the Mac Mini

01:38:51   is a great example.

01:38:52   And I think that, again, I think that iMac,

01:38:54   like Apple takes a little more money

01:38:56   to give you a little bit more of a processor

01:38:59   and sell you a little bit more RAM and all of those things

01:39:03   and increase their profit margin.

01:39:04   Like I do think that that's gonna happen.

01:39:06   It just, you know, the first round all came out

01:39:09   when it was just the M1.

01:39:10   And so it's more limited now

01:39:12   than it's gonna be down the road.

01:39:13   - Yeah, it's that same trend of like with the iMac,

01:39:15   like the technology became available

01:39:16   to make a pretty darn good computer that was all in one.

01:39:19   Apple will continue to be tempted in that direction.

01:39:22   When it becomes possible to put an M1 Pro or an M2,

01:39:26   you know, or M2 Pro in that very same 24-inch iMac case,

01:39:30   it's very tempting for the same reason you said.

01:39:32   It's tempting to do that, 'cause Apple can say,

01:39:33   "Look, well, we made chips,

01:39:35   and they fit in that cooling envelope,

01:39:36   and we've already got the design,

01:39:38   and we'll pick different colors,

01:39:39   but like, why would we not do that?

01:39:41   We can charge more for it.

01:39:42   We get really great margins on these optional extras

01:39:44   or these upgrades or whatever."

01:39:45   And that's the path that leads you to eventually,

01:39:49   you know, the 5K iMac with an i9, right?

01:39:52   And now it's extra screen.

01:39:53   So Apple needs to keep itself under control

01:39:55   because eventually, you know, if current trends continue,

01:39:59   it may be possible to put like,

01:40:01   and we've seen this already.

01:40:02   It used to be that the laptops would have

01:40:04   tremendously weaker chips than desktops.

01:40:07   And as technology has marched on,

01:40:10   the gap between desktop and laptop's power

01:40:12   has shrunk to basically almost nothing in Apple's line.

01:40:14   I mean, they're not even like,

01:40:15   they're not even clocked differently.

01:40:16   You know, you can get a, you know, a MacBook with an M1 Max

01:40:20   and a desktop with an M1 Max, and they're just as powerful,

01:40:23   maybe slightly more thermal throttling on the laptop, right?

01:40:26   What that means is that eventually it will be possible

01:40:28   to put the spiritual equivalent of the M1 Ultra,

01:40:32   like, you know, with the M5 Ultra or whatever,

01:40:34   into the 24-inch iMac form factor.

01:40:37   And the only thing stopping Apple from doing that

01:40:40   will be hopefully some semblance

01:40:42   of having sensible market segmentation,

01:40:44   because it will still be expensive,

01:40:45   like but we can fit it should we make that an option and someone needs to say no let's have

01:40:50   products that make sense and are more coherent i know you can fit it but like then what's the

01:40:55   point in having the rest of our products right i say the same thing about the potential new mac pro

01:40:59   right if it's got the same if the best chip that is in the mac pro is an m1 ultra then why do you

01:41:06   have the m1 ultra what differentiates it from the mac studio it's like well it's got card slots but

01:41:09   but you can't put GPUs in them."

01:41:11   And I'm like, "Eh."

01:41:12   I feel like they need to, you know,

01:41:14   the beauty of Steve Jobs' simplicity of that grid,

01:41:17   you know, consumer pro desktop, laptop,

01:41:20   I'm not saying a four quadrant grid is the correct grid

01:41:23   for Apple's current products, but boy,

01:41:25   that simplification going down from a thousand performers

01:41:27   is very clarifying.

01:41:28   And I hope somewhere inside Apple,

01:41:30   there is an equivalent master plan of the Mac line

01:41:34   that is equally sensible.

01:41:35   - Yeah, it's a little discipline that needs to be exerted

01:41:38   to say, you know, where do we want to place our bets?

01:41:40   And I think if anything, I would say that this

01:41:44   Apple Silicon Mac product transition

01:41:46   has shown a lot of discipline.

01:41:47   I feel like they are making some calls

01:41:49   and they can't do everything,

01:41:51   but it seems to me like they got a plan

01:41:54   and they're executing on it.

01:41:55   And you know, the challenge is always going to be,

01:41:58   does the plan start to unravel

01:42:00   when you kind of move on to round two and round three?

01:42:03   - Five years from now. - Yeah, we'll see.

01:42:05   - When you're able to do so many more things

01:42:07   and you can start to mix and match even more.

01:42:09   Like the discipline to keep the M1 to the low ends

01:42:12   and like M1 Pro and Max to the middles and the M1 Ultra,

01:42:15   like, we look at them, you know,

01:42:17   because it is plausible to put an M1 Ultra

01:42:21   on the back of an iMac.

01:42:22   They have the discipline not to do that

01:42:24   because they'd be like, well, we could fit that,

01:42:27   but it would be way thicker than the 24 inch.

01:42:29   And what are we saying about the iMac?

01:42:31   The iMac is supposed to be the thin all-in-one

01:42:33   that disappears on your desk.

01:42:34   And even though we can make an M1 Ultra iMac,

01:42:37   That would not be the thing that we said,

01:42:38   which is the really thing computer disappears in your desk,

01:42:40   'cause it's not gonna disappear on your desk

01:42:41   with an M1 Ultra.

01:42:42   It's like, but it would still be thinner

01:42:43   than the old iMac.

01:42:45   It's like, you need to keep that discipline.

01:42:47   You need to keep the discipline of the name

01:42:49   and the product aligned, whatever,

01:42:53   like a sort of a vision statement

01:42:54   or a mission statement for the product

01:42:55   and keep that in mind,

01:42:56   even when it becomes technically possible

01:42:58   to do all sorts of fantastic stuff.

01:43:00   - All right, one more before we go, Jon.

01:43:03   I want your take on this.

01:43:04   Myke and I have been laughing a lot at Apple's very strange color situation.

01:43:09   We've really gotten into talking about what colors are on what products and that

01:43:12   they've introduced these new non color colors like midnight and starlight.

01:43:16   Um, Eshoo writes, how would both of you fix Apple's color situation?

01:43:21   Midnight starlight, silver, graphite, space, gray, black, all the things.

01:43:25   What do you think about where Apple is with its, uh, defining

01:43:29   colors for its products right now?

01:43:31   Part of picking colors for products is inevitably fashion.

01:43:36   As in what kinds of colors are trendy

01:43:40   or what kinds of color trends do we want to set

01:43:43   by choosing those colors?

01:43:44   And the complex interconnected reason why,

01:43:49   let's say these kind of muted pastel-y,

01:43:55   but not really pastel-y colors that Apple's been using,

01:43:58   like the, what was it, the midnight green,

01:44:00   the blues that are kind of dusty and chalky.

01:44:04   They've been doing that for several years.

01:44:07   That's a fashion choice,

01:44:09   just as much as the teal iMac was,

01:44:11   just as much as the Lifesavers iMacs were,

01:44:14   just as much as the fall colors, sage, things like,

01:44:17   that's fashion, right?

01:44:19   And so I don't necessarily think that it is a problem

01:44:22   that Apple has been picking these colors.

01:44:23   I think it is just a fashion trend

01:44:25   that we are in the midst of,

01:44:26   and it will pass like all fashion does,

01:44:28   and there'll be different choices in the future.

01:44:31   That's why I'm mostly just excited

01:44:32   that we have colors at all.

01:44:34   And I can't really, it's hard to push back

01:44:37   against a fashion trend when you're in the midst of it.

01:44:41   It's like being, you know, in the seventies

01:44:43   and saying you hate mustache.

01:44:44   It's like, well, wait a little bit.

01:44:46   It'll clear up, right?

01:44:47   But for now-

01:44:48   - It's like being involved in podcasts

01:44:49   and not having a beard.

01:44:51   - Well, yeah, we all have beards now.

01:44:53   It was our whole home of COVID, we don't have to shave anymore.

01:44:57   So I don't think it's necessarily something to fix,

01:45:00   although I would actually, as I joked on this week's ATP,

01:45:04   introduce a color called dishwater

01:45:05   and see if anybody notices,

01:45:06   because I feel like a lot of the colors.

01:45:09   I mean, if you, Midnight and Starlight are,

01:45:11   like have these beautiful aspirational names,

01:45:13   but honestly that's what color dishwater is.

01:45:15   Like it's what, you made a dishwater a product.

01:45:18   And the same with the silver and the space gray.

01:45:20   It's been a joke forever that there's been 700 colors

01:45:23   that are called space gray,

01:45:24   and space is not gray, number one.

01:45:26   And number two, all these colors are different

01:45:27   from each other, so.

01:45:28   - And they're all basically silver.

01:45:30   Unless you hold them next to each other,

01:45:31   you just say it was silver.

01:45:32   And then you're like, oh, it's a little darker silver.

01:45:34   Great.

01:45:35   - Yeah, although I feel like I can tell the difference

01:45:37   without a comparison, but most people who don't know

01:45:39   the intimate details of the shades of gray

01:45:41   might not be able to tell.

01:45:42   But I do like the new colors of the iMac,

01:45:45   and I think that is a, to show that things change over time,

01:45:47   the iMacs, particularly the back of the 24-inch iMacs,

01:45:51   are way more saturated than products have been,

01:45:53   while still not being candy apple red

01:45:55   like the product red ones are, right?

01:45:58   And I think if you, again,

01:46:00   if you didn't like the sort of midnight starlight emerald,

01:46:03   not emerald, midnight green type thing

01:46:05   and the very muted blues that basically look black,

01:46:08   if you didn't like that,

01:46:09   the IMAX are a sign that the fashion is slowly changing.

01:46:11   So I would say just wait a few years

01:46:13   and hopefully the colors will change.

01:46:15   The only thing I would fix is I would say,

01:46:17   bring back the apple that wasn't afraid

01:46:19   to make its pro products in more fun colors.

01:46:21   - Yes.

01:46:22   - Well, people who've listened to "Upgrade"

01:46:23   have heard me rant about this a little bit,

01:46:25   but I have two points I will make here

01:46:27   since Eshu asked how would I fix it.

01:46:28   One is, I would really like,

01:46:30   this is why Myke and I started talking about

01:46:32   how there needs to be a color czar at Apple.

01:46:34   It's like, I want,

01:46:35   you talk about discipline and having a plan.

01:46:37   Like, color is fashion,

01:46:39   but I want somebody in charge of it,

01:46:40   and I want some consistency.

01:46:42   So first off is, if it's named something,

01:46:45   it should be that color everywhere.

01:46:48   I don't want there to be-

01:46:50   - That's asking a lot.

01:46:52   - I mean, I don't want there to be,

01:46:53   well, if it's named something that's not like green,

01:46:55   you know, I know there's different greens,

01:46:57   but if space gray should probably mean something

01:47:00   that isn't whatever we want it to mean,

01:47:02   space gray is a lost cause anyway.

01:47:04   - I already pushed back against that rule.

01:47:06   I already say rule number one of the colors are I reject it.

01:47:09   You know why?

01:47:10   Because I feel like-

01:47:11   - Colors just want to be free, man.

01:47:13   - Space gray at this point is a branding thing.

01:47:16   And I don't want, if I want to make my-

01:47:19   - It's so far gone, it's gone.

01:47:20   but every individual product should be able to choose the shade of quote unquote

01:47:24   space. They're all, they're all fragile flowers.

01:47:28   It looks good on their own because shade of gray. Cause cause making,

01:47:32   picking the color or something as vast as like a 27 inch iMac versus the color

01:47:36   of the back of a phone, you have to make different choices there.

01:47:39   And if there was one corporate thing called space gray,

01:47:41   they would either force people to issue the space gray branding and say, well,

01:47:45   we have a gray,

01:47:45   but we couldn't call it space gray because space gray actually looks bad on our

01:47:48   phone or it would cause them to choose the standard space gray that is a poor

01:47:53   fit for either the very large iMac or the very small phone.

01:47:56   I mean, the other alternative is to do what the car industry does, where

01:48:00   no two color names are ever the same.

01:48:02   With the rare exception of things like Ferrari, where there's like a

01:48:05   traditional color name or whatever.

01:48:06   If you look at like, what is, what is the blue color called on the Honda

01:48:11   Accord over the past decade, they change it every single year, right?

01:48:14   It's never the same.

01:48:15   Even if it's almost the same color blue, it's like mattresses.

01:48:18   every single year.

01:48:19   - It's Alpine green, iPhone.

01:48:21   It's the Alpine green.

01:48:22   It's totally different than the midnight green.

01:48:24   It's Alpine green.

01:48:25   - Car paint colors are the most hilarious,

01:48:27   like, you know, word soups that mean nothing,

01:48:30   but they tend not to just want to call it blue,

01:48:33   especially in the high end.

01:48:35   - So I would like some consistency,

01:48:37   but I get what you're saying,

01:48:38   but I would like a little more consistency.

01:48:40   But my overarching point is colors are fun.

01:48:43   Computers can be fun.

01:48:46   I would like Apple to continue what it's done with the iMac in other places.

01:48:50   And while I understand that professional users often want it to be not the center of attention

01:48:55   or they want something that's color neutral, and that there should be options for them,

01:49:00   I would like Apple's pro products to also be fun.

01:49:04   Because computers and phones and stuff can be fun.

01:49:09   And so I just want more color options in more places.

01:49:13   But the iMacs are a good start.

01:49:15   Put it that way.

01:49:16   are a good start. And I love my iPhone mini in blue.

01:49:19   I think it's great. So it's, you know, personality,

01:49:24   adding personality, having an orange iMac, right?

01:49:26   Like it's great. More of that, please.

01:49:29   - Yeah. And if I had to convince Apple of like, why,

01:49:32   you know, because Apple obviously has a very

01:49:34   straightforward reason for not doing that.

01:49:35   Like, well, the professional, it's more,

01:49:37   it's more professional. It should be more formal.

01:49:38   It's not as, you know, frivolous, right?

01:49:41   They should learn from the, you know,

01:49:44   past analogs where there have been companies that have had extremely high

01:49:48   end expensive products that have made the unexpected color of their products.

01:49:52   Part of the branding, look at SGI,

01:49:54   SGI sold computers that cost as much as you know, a fleet of cars, right?

01:49:59   There were huge amounts of money and they would come in like eggplant purple,

01:50:03   or, you know,

01:50:04   like the colors that you would not expect a very expensive computer to come in.

01:50:09   And that became part of their branding that you'd see them in the server room or

01:50:13   whatever and you could pick them out from a mile away,

01:50:16   ah, that's an SGI or that's a sun with its pale blue

01:50:19   and even, you know, even if it was a subdue

01:50:20   with a pale blue feet with the, with the, you could,

01:50:23   even in a blurry, terrible 640 picture,

01:50:26   you can pick out which are the sun computers

01:50:27   and which are the SGIs.

01:50:28   Color can be part of your branding.

01:50:30   It doesn't even need to be a particularly attractive color.

01:50:32   If someone, you know, whatever color they pick,

01:50:34   obviously you could pick black or something.

01:50:36   I know Apple hasn't made a pro black computer

01:50:37   in a long time and that's an easy one.

01:50:39   But even if you just made them like deep orange

01:50:41   or something, whatever color they picked

01:50:43   when people would see them, they'd be like, ah, that's one of those Mac pros or

01:50:47   that's one of their whatevers.

01:50:49   Color can be a powerful signal for your highest end product.

01:50:54   If you pick a good one.

01:50:55   And it's also fun.

01:50:56   I'm not saying you have to, you know, make them in candy colors.

01:50:59   And Apple did that in the very beginning of the, uh, power Mac days when post

01:51:06   iMac power back days where you had the iMac and then they made the, the blue

01:51:09   white G3 that was essentially an iMac tower and then they subdued it a little

01:51:14   bit for the G4 where it got a little bit darker and then they made it silver with

01:51:17   the quicksilver and the mirrored drive doors and then just color was gone it

01:51:21   was yeah no not even no sparkles no nothing it's just gonna be space gray or

01:51:26   whatever they made a black MacBook once and that was about it so I'm I'm ready

01:51:31   for any kind of stronger visual branding for the pro products and I think it

01:51:35   would help differentiate them it's one of the advantages you get when you're

01:51:37   you're gonna sell a computer for an obscene price,

01:51:41   throw in the silly surface treatment, right?

01:51:44   The same way you can get supercars with paint colors

01:51:46   that cost as much as another car.

01:51:48   That's where you can get away with that.

01:51:50   When you're selling someone a $15,000 computer already,

01:51:53   tack on an extra a hundred bucks

01:51:56   to have it to be like sparkle yellow.

01:51:58   Like if you've decided that's your branding

01:52:00   for your high-end one, whatever you pick,

01:52:02   I trust that Apple could pick a tasteful color.

01:52:04   - I'm sure. - People work

01:52:05   and people will start to recognize that color

01:52:07   meaning that color equals expense and power.

01:52:09   - The reason I'm hopeful for this is that Apple actually

01:52:11   has shown that they understand that people like colors

01:52:13   and they like fun stuff because the iPhones do have colors

01:52:16   and the Apple watches do have-

01:52:17   - Even the pro ones, but the pro ones are a little muted.

01:52:20   - Yes, yes.

01:52:20   And the Apple watch have many different bands

01:52:23   and fashion colors and the iMacs come in colors.

01:52:25   And I feel like we're getting to a better place

01:52:28   where there are more colors.

01:52:29   And I am very much looking forward to that rumored MacBook

01:52:32   Air that will be more like the 24-inch iMac

01:52:34   and will come in different colors because I have thought

01:52:36   about a blue or orange laptop for a long time.

01:52:40   It would be a lot of fun.

01:52:41   Like in the old days when it was the iBook

01:52:43   and they had a blue and an orange, maybe.

01:52:46   - And they just did it with the iPad Airs, right?

01:52:47   The new iPad Airs all come in nice colors too.

01:52:49   Again, slightly muted, slightly chalky, but still.

01:52:52   - Yeah, I wish they were a little bit brighter.

01:52:53   They should be a little more fun,

01:52:54   but they're getting there.

01:52:55   They're taking their time.

01:52:57   All right, well, if you have a question for Ask Upgrade,

01:53:00   you can tweet at us at #AskUpgrade

01:53:02   or question mark Ask Upgrade in the Relay FM member Discord.

01:53:06   This brings us to the end of this very special episode.

01:53:09   I want to thank my sponsors for this week,

01:53:11   Bombas, New Relic, and Memberful.

01:53:13   And most of all, I want to thank John Siracusa

01:53:15   for dropping in on this episode with Myke in Transit.

01:53:18   John, it was a pleasure to talk to you

01:53:20   about things that are more

01:53:22   than whether something is a robot or not.

01:53:24   - Yeah, we got to talk about Macs.

01:53:26   I'm always available to do that.

01:53:27   Although these days,

01:53:28   Myke has become more of a Mac fan as well,

01:53:30   so I don't feel like it was necessary

01:53:32   for me to fill in for this iPad user.

01:53:34   - It's true, it's true.

01:53:35   But we go back a little bit,

01:53:36   I mean, this was all the weeks for me to talk to you

01:53:38   about Macs, when we get the first sort of like

01:53:41   brand new Mac model type in a long time.

01:53:44   This was a good time, I thought, to get caught up,

01:53:47   you and me, about Mac stuff.

01:53:49   So I'm glad you could be here.

01:53:51   - Yep, I was glad to do it.

01:53:52   - And we will see you all next week.

01:53:53   Myke will be back.

01:53:54   Thanks to our members who support us.

01:53:57   If you're not a member, go to getupgradeplus.com.

01:53:59   Become a member.

01:54:00   You get ad-free versions of the show with extras.

01:54:04   Myke does that better than me, but I'm out of practice.

01:54:06   Anyway, we will be back next week.

01:54:09   But until then, say goodbye, John Zaraquiza.

01:54:12   - Goodbye.

01:54:13   - Goodbye, everybody.

01:54:13   (upbeat music)

01:54:16   [ Music ]