391: They're Great Uphill


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Reel AFM, this is Upgrade episode 391. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:15   Squarespace, Capital One and Memberful. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by

00:00:19   Jason Snow. Hi Jason. Hi Myke. I have a #snowtalk question. Comes from

00:00:23   Walk. Fake name. Interesting. Do you use the same

00:00:28   Siri voice on each of your HomePods

00:00:30   or do you give them their own voices

00:00:32   so they have unique personalities?

00:00:34   - Well, first off I only have, well, okay.

00:00:37   I have a HomePod mini.

00:00:38   It doesn't, I don't ever use it with Siri.

00:00:41   I have paired HomePods.

00:00:43   I do use them with Siri sometimes.

00:00:45   They have a voice that is not on my other devices.

00:00:48   We have taken, actually we followed Myke's advice

00:00:51   and we have made him a British gentleman

00:00:53   who is our butler who lives inside toucans,

00:00:57   not the bird toucans, the actual two home pods.

00:01:02   Wouldn't it be something if a butler lived inside a toucan,

00:01:04   there's like a whole children's book there.

00:01:05   Anyway, yeah, so the butler is the one who will,

00:01:09   while we're watching TV suddenly say,

00:01:11   "I don't think I got that."

00:01:14   And we look at him with scorn,

00:01:16   but it's kind of fun to have a different character

00:01:19   to play Ciri from place to place.

00:01:21   So I recommend it.

00:01:22   I actually think it's a lot of fun to have

00:01:24   different Ciri voices in different places

00:01:27   because you can personify them differently.

00:01:29   - What I also like for that for me personally,

00:01:32   is that my American friends stop referring to Siri

00:01:36   as a specific gender or not.

00:01:38   Like, 'cause for me, Siri has always been a,

00:01:42   like, well, what's called the male voice previously,

00:01:44   it doesn't have that assigned to it anymore,

00:01:48   but people have always referred to Siri as she

00:01:51   in America for that reason.

00:01:53   And that's not accurate to even like my

00:01:57   blinker worldview at all.

00:01:59   So yeah, I prefer it when people, you're gonna mix it up.

00:02:02   And I like now that it's part of the processes you choose.

00:02:06   Like that's like a thing now.

00:02:07   I don't think that was a thing before.

00:02:09   I think if you were setting up a device from nothing,

00:02:11   it's like choose this.

00:02:13   So there you go.

00:02:15   Thank you to Mork for that question.

00:02:19   If you would like to send in a question for us to open

00:02:22   episode of the show just send out a tweet with the hashtag snow talk or you

00:02:26   can use question mark snow talk in the relay FM members discord nanu nanu it was

00:02:33   waiting for some kind of thing what I thought you were going to spot is where's

00:02:39   Mindy that's what I thought you were gonna could have done that too mmm-hmm

00:02:44   but you didn't ask some follow where's Mindy I have some follow this first

00:02:48   comes from Nathan. Nathan has written in with a screenshot that shows that there was once

00:02:54   more animals available for profile images in Mac OS X. There were a bunch of cats, which

00:03:01   is one I was asked. There was also a dog and a dragonfly.

00:03:04   - A dragonfly, butterfly, a goldfish. Be a goldfish. Yeah, we also, I think Stephen Hackett

00:03:10   pointed out that there was, at one point, they were all of these images and they were

00:03:13   in low resolution. And then I kind of wonder if maybe when they went to a higher resolution

00:03:18   image they didn't have those images in high resolution so they dropped them and the ones

00:03:23   that remain are the ones that they did have but yeah this was this was great that there

00:03:27   used to be more animals other than the now traditional four birds and what was the and

00:03:34   a zebra yeah four birds and a zebra isn't that richard curtis movie yep that's a less

00:03:39   successful sequel the um when they left the cat names behind i think they also left the

00:03:44   The cat's behind apparently.

00:03:45   - That doesn't make any sense to me.

00:03:46   - And a dog. - I will say.

00:03:47   - And a goldfish.

00:03:48   - Speaking of Steven Hackett, he let me down.

00:03:51   - Did he? - Because after the episode,

00:03:53   I went to Steven's Mac OS screenshot library

00:03:55   to see if I could find it.

00:03:58   And he doesn't have any screenshots

00:04:01   with the profile images in them.

00:04:04   I was hoping he would have that.

00:04:04   - All right, Steven, we're laying the challenge down

00:04:08   right now. - Oh, no.

00:04:09   I didn't lay this challenge down.

00:04:10   - We are laying the challenge down.

00:04:11   Steven, your library, look,

00:04:14   It's not for us, it's for your library's completion.

00:04:18   - You know you'll have to complete things.

00:04:20   - You need to get the options for login icon

00:04:25   in screenshots for every version.

00:04:28   You need to.

00:04:30   We've uncovered, it's like a news alert,

00:04:33   we've uncovered a missing piece

00:04:34   of the 512 pixel screenshot library.

00:04:36   - Jason, there is some very important news.

00:04:39   - Do we have music for this?

00:04:40   Is there like a song for this?

00:04:42   - In theory, there could have been,

00:04:43   but now it's too late.

00:04:44   I've read this aloud to Adina today

00:04:49   because these two sentences might be my favorite

00:04:52   two sentences I've ever written in our show prep document.

00:04:56   So here we go.

00:04:57   Apple will no longer include free ear pods

00:04:59   with new iPhone purchases.

00:05:01   French lawmakers now feel that reducing environmental impact

00:05:05   of e-waste is higher than the risk

00:05:07   of exposing children to radiation.

00:05:09   (laughing)

00:05:13   Longtime listeners may be aware that this is a thing that has come up a bunch on this show in the past

00:05:17   from a spec like it came up from a long time ago like when they stopped including the

00:05:23   Earbuds in the box in France. They had to continue doing it because of some law because of

00:05:29   Exposing brains that are still forming to radiation that in French law

00:05:35   Apparently this was a concern that holding a phone to your head was gonna

00:05:39   and we thought it was like a hands free kit thing in the car, like driving, but no it

00:05:43   wasn't that, it was a brain radiation thing. And then Apple continued to do it and we were

00:05:48   wondering, when they stopped putting the charger in the box, will they still do this? And yes,

00:05:52   in France, your iPhone will come in another box that inside of that box had a set of earpods,

00:05:59   not airpods, earpods, the wired ones with it. Well now the law has changed and this

00:06:05   law no longer exists anymore and Apple has confirmed they will no longer be doing this

00:06:09   in France because this is now an environmental concern of the additional paper and resources

00:06:15   required for these hands-free kits that nobody wants I'm sure in France and just throws away

00:06:20   right because who wants this every single time you get a phone that you also get wired

00:06:27   earbuds like who doesn't have their own at this point that they would prefer to use them.

00:06:33   stand for the national anthem of France.

00:06:36   - Of brain radiation.

00:06:38   - Yeah, I mean, well, the truth is this is,

00:06:41   and we talked about it a lot,

00:06:42   so we might as well talk about it one last time

00:06:44   as we put it down in the dirt, which is,

00:06:47   people used to be really worried about cell phone radiation,

00:06:49   even though I think there were never really any,

00:06:52   there was any direct proof.

00:06:54   Like, I think there's skepticism about it,

00:06:57   but the thought was, oh, we gotta protect people.

00:06:59   You should use hands-free instead of putting a phone

00:07:03   up to your head. And so back in the day, they made it a rule that if you were selling like

00:07:09   a candy bar phone, basically, that you needed to have a thing that you could click in and

00:07:15   stick on your ear so that you didn't have to hold the phone up. And that stayed on the

00:07:18   books as we went to a world where it's not really an issue anymore for the most part

00:07:26   and that headphones are all readily available and wireless headphones are readily available

00:07:30   and all of these things. And France was like, nope. And as the EU is saying, you need to stop e-waste

00:07:37   with all of these things like chargers. And France was like, no, no, no, no, no, you got to put it in

00:07:41   the box. So which, which as we learned was not truly put in the box. It was put in a box that

00:07:48   was with the box in a larger box. So there was also actual waste, right? Of like all these extra

00:07:55   your boxes. Anyway, bon voyage adieu? Something like that.

00:08:05   I am kind of sad about this because I loved talking about this story every year. And I

00:08:10   will also say I am really surprised that this was a story that I found myself on MacRumors.

00:08:15   Oh, interesting. I had somebody tweeted it at me and I put it in our little notes doc

00:08:20   because I was very excited and I said, oh boy, we got to talk about this one. I hope

00:08:24   - Yeah, I think I'd put it in there as well.

00:08:27   But what I'm saying is I'm surprised nobody tweeted at me

00:08:29   because every year when MacRumors puts their post up

00:08:34   about the included AirPods or someone,

00:08:36   someone sends it to me.

00:08:37   Unfortunately, this post on MacRumors

00:08:40   was wrote by Sammy Fathy.

00:08:42   Usually, it's just Joe Rosignol writes this story

00:08:45   on behalf of Upgrade, I think.

00:08:47   - So listener Nathan tweeted to the Upgrade Twitter account

00:08:52   and that's where I saw it.

00:08:54   I imagine you already saw this important French EarPods follow up. Here's a link. So I hadn't

00:08:59   seen it.

00:09:00   Okay, so it had been sent. But okay, so that so I will apologize. Maybe I didn't check

00:09:05   the upgrade account quickly enough.

00:09:08   But big news, though. Big news.

00:09:11   This is very important news for the show. I would like to congratulate the marketing

00:09:18   department at Apple TV+ for an ad that they have produced called "Everyone but Jon Hamm"

00:09:25   which there will be a link in the show notes. If you have not watched this ad, treat yourself

00:09:30   for a one minute and eight second ad that I have so many questions about and I adore

00:09:37   it. Basically the conceit of the ad, Jon Hamm sitting in an incredible apartment somewhere

00:09:41   in LA and he is just complaining about the fact that Apple TV+ has so much content but

00:09:49   none of it is including him. And he's looking through and he's saying "Ted Lasso? I could

00:09:54   have been in that." And he's complaining about all of the different things, he's leaving

00:09:58   voicemails for Tom Hanks saying "How many movies have you got on there?" It is a really

00:10:04   really good ad and I'm I'm really I have like a bunch of questions about it right like one

00:10:11   why John Hamm people to why did John Hamm do this ad like it's it's excellent it's very

00:10:19   funny John Hamm by the way very funny people only really know him as what people mostly

00:10:25   know him for being Don Draper and madman but he's also a very good comedic actor too. He

00:10:30   He was in 30 Rock. He's been in a bunch of comedy things. He is a very funny comic actor

00:10:34   and people don't give him enough credit because he's Mr. Handsome and he was in Mad Men. But

00:10:39   he is actually really a funny guy. Canadians will know that he is in a commercial ad campaign

00:10:48   that had a very similar tone to this. I actually wonder if that was the inspiration here for

00:10:52   a delivery service called Skip the Dishes. And my Canadian friends send me the YouTube

00:10:56   blinks to those ads and they're very funny. He's really good at those ads. So I think

00:11:00   the reason he did this is because they paid him, but also the reason they wanted him is

00:11:05   because he is somebody people know and he doesn't take himself too seriously and is

00:11:11   happy to poke fun at his own self-image in ads. And then in the back of my head I'm also

00:11:17   thinking do they have to get this ad out now because they're about to announce the Jon

00:11:20   Hamm project that they've bought?

00:11:21   - Surely, right?

00:11:23   Like surely they must have said to him,

00:11:25   "Hey John, if you do this, we will put you in something."

00:11:28   Right, like that feels like it's got to be

00:11:30   the eventual end to this.

00:11:32   Like what I hope, genuine, is this is a campaign

00:11:34   and then it ends with finally the John Hamm show.

00:11:37   - Now we're announcing the John Hamm show.

00:11:40   Yeah, Zach pointed out Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt,

00:11:44   he's in that too. - Excellent in that.

00:11:45   - He's the cult leader in that.

00:11:47   No, he is a very funny,

00:11:48   and his Saturday Night Live appearance is not,

00:11:50   He's a very funny actor who a lot of people only know

00:11:53   for being Don Draper, but this is, yeah,

00:11:58   it's a great ad.

00:11:59   It is a legitimately great ad.

00:12:00   I saw a lot of people, you know,

00:12:01   people have opinions about Apple ads.

00:12:03   We haven't talked about those ads that they've done

00:12:06   for the Apple Watch that have been running

00:12:07   during football games, especially here in the US that are--

00:12:09   - Oh, the ones that say you're going to die

00:12:11   unless you have an Apple Watch.

00:12:12   - Yeah, all these people would have died,

00:12:14   but they had their Apple Watch,

00:12:15   which I actually think are incredibly effective ads,

00:12:17   and we can debate whether they should exist,

00:12:18   but I think they're very effective.

00:12:20   - Oh, they exist for the reason that I find them weird,

00:12:23   like is what reason they should also exist?

00:12:25   'Cause they make me uncomfortable, right?

00:12:27   - So this is just everybody looked at it and said,

00:12:31   this is a hilarious ad.

00:12:33   And I saw somebody I follow on Twitter

00:12:35   who mostly doesn't write about tech.

00:12:39   They write about TV and entertainment who said,

00:12:42   ah, this Apple company,

00:12:43   it's like they're pretty good at marketing their products.

00:12:48   Yeah, actually they are, but it's a good ad, very good ad.

00:12:51   - Yeah, I really love it, and I hope that they do something.

00:12:54   Jon Hamm is awesome.

00:12:55   My favorite thing about most of Jon Hamm's

00:12:57   comedic appearances is they are unexpected or surprising.

00:13:02   Because he pops up, right?

00:13:05   Like he just pops up and stuff.

00:13:06   You're like, "Whoa, what's Jon Hamm doing here?"

00:13:08   - Why is Jon Hamm here?

00:13:09   My favorite moment in the ad, by the way,

00:13:12   is that he says, "Hey, Tom Hanks, I saw Finch.

00:13:15   "That was really great."

00:13:17   And you have this other one too, right?

00:13:19   The, like, Greyhound or whatever.

00:13:21   And I thought that was really the way it was phrased

00:13:23   because we know, like,

00:13:25   Greyhound was gonna be in a theater

00:13:27   and then the pandemic happened and Apple bought it

00:13:29   and they put it on Apple TV+.

00:13:30   I think Finch was a much earlier purchase by Apple

00:13:34   and is more of an Apple original than Greyhound was.

00:13:39   But I liked, I thought that was a very funny

00:13:41   little realistic detail where he's like,

00:13:43   "Oh yeah, and you were in that other one too."

00:13:46   And like only people who do upstream would really get that.

00:13:51   But I appreciate it.

00:13:53   I thought that was pretty funny.

00:13:53   - My favorite part is when I don't know much

00:13:56   about Swan Song, which is what is,

00:13:59   that stars Mahershala Ali, right?

00:14:01   - Yeah, apparently two of him.

00:14:03   - That's what I like.

00:14:03   They got two of him, I could have done one of those.

00:14:05   It's just so good.

00:14:07   It's really good.

00:14:09   It's a really excellent ad.

00:14:12   - Yeah.

00:14:13   Next week is we're gonna be talking about Apple's Q1 results.

00:14:18   That's coming out on Thursday, 27th.

00:14:20   - Yeah, you thought this episode was packed and it is,

00:14:24   but next week's episode is gonna be packed too.

00:14:26   Yeah, the Apple results are Thursday, the 27th.

00:14:28   So we'll have a conversation about that here on Monday.

00:14:34   We're gonna do the usual six colors coverage

00:14:37   and maybe some extra stuff.

00:14:38   I'm toying with the idea of doing a little live stream,

00:14:41   doing a little live stream, a little video live stream after the call where Dan and I

00:14:46   will break it down and show some charts and do all that stuff.

00:14:48   So people should stay locked to six colors for your great coverage and then we'll break

00:14:52   it down.

00:14:53   Continue being locked to it, yes.

00:14:54   We'll break it down on Monday.

00:14:56   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Capital One.

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00:16:15   Rumour round up Jason!

00:16:17   Coming in from Mark Gurman. Apple has lost another key member of its self driving car

00:16:23   project. Joe Bass who was the head of software engineering for the project. They left to

00:16:30   join Meta, with Bass's departure, nearly the entire Apple car management team in place

00:16:38   just one year ago is gone. Dave Scott, Jamie Wadeau, Dave Rosenthal and Benjamin Lyon all

00:16:44   left in early 2021. Doug Field, who ran the car team, headed for the exits in September.

00:16:50   Michael Szweszczuk, who was in charge of hardware for Apple's project, soon followed. Then

00:16:58   top engineers bolted. Bass had reported to field before moving under Kevin Lynch, the

00:17:09   new head of Apple's car team. Now, Mark Gilman's, the way he writes for his newsletter is much

00:17:14   more fun for me than, but so this is interesting. You've put a good note in here. Do you want

00:17:20   to ask this question?

00:17:21   - Yeah, I wonder if this is a sign

00:17:26   that things are getting real

00:17:30   or a sign that things are not going well.

00:17:32   And I actually can't decide

00:17:34   because I can see both of these scenarios, right?

00:17:37   Where they assign Kevin Lynch to do this.

00:17:41   And we kind of assumed that this is that moment

00:17:43   where I think Tim Cook is saying to Kevin Lynch,

00:17:46   "All right, you gotta find out if there's a product here

00:17:48   and we gotta move it toward it existing.

00:17:51   Otherwise, why are we doing this?

00:17:52   Right, like let's get real with this thing

00:17:55   and either and stop messing around basically.

00:17:58   Let's stop messing around and let's do this.

00:18:00   And I can see a bunch of people

00:18:03   who've been working on this project

00:18:04   that has sort of been, they've been toiling

00:18:06   and it's just sort of been this theoretical thing.

00:18:09   I could see somebody coming in from another part of Apple

00:18:12   who wants to ship a product

00:18:14   being something that they don't like.

00:18:16   And the cynical way for me to view it is

00:18:17   that it's a bunch of people who really kind of like

00:18:20   being paid a lot of money to tinker around with stuff,

00:18:24   but not ship a final product,

00:18:25   might leap to somewhere else

00:18:29   that is also going to allow them to tinker around.

00:18:31   Like that's a pretty good gig, right?

00:18:33   That you never actually have to ship,

00:18:35   you just kind of get paid a lot of money

00:18:36   to do some development work and then go somewhere else.

00:18:41   So I could definitely imagine a scenario,

00:18:43   and I'm not saying this is definitely what happened,

00:18:45   but I can imagine a scenario where Kevin Lynch comes in

00:18:47   and says, "Okay, what are we doing?

00:18:48   we're gonna drop this, we're gonna do this,

00:18:50   we're gonna get this thing out the door.

00:18:52   And the people who were managing it are like,

00:18:54   yeah, I'm out of here,

00:18:55   and I'm gonna take some of my people with us,

00:18:57   and we're gonna go over to Meadow where they're gonna pay us

00:18:59   and they're not gonna maybe require the level of results

00:19:03   that we're suddenly being asked here.

00:19:04   - Or the approach changed.

00:19:07   - Yeah, well, for sure. - You know, like,

00:19:08   that Kevin Lynch comes in and he's like,

00:19:10   no, I wanna do it this way.

00:19:11   And they're like, no, I don't wanna do it that way,

00:19:12   so I'm going. - I think those go together,

00:19:14   because I think that if Kevin Lynch is coming in,

00:19:16   My guess again, my read would be he's coming in

00:19:20   because Tim wants this project to get real.

00:19:23   And I'm sure people didn't appreciate that.

00:19:25   That is a new approach, right?

00:19:27   Regardless of whether they thought they were real or not,

00:19:32   they were kind of confronted with like,

00:19:33   no, we're gonna do it this way

00:19:34   and they may not like that.

00:19:36   I think it is also potentially a sign

00:19:37   that things aren't going well.

00:19:38   And it's a flip side of that same story,

00:19:40   which is Kevin Lynch comes in and says, we wanna do this.

00:19:43   And everybody's like, are you kidding?

00:19:45   and they're out of there.

00:19:46   So I can't, based on all of this limited information,

00:19:51   I can't decide whether this is that moment

00:19:55   where it's like, ah, yes, this is the inevitable shakeup

00:19:59   because they're getting serious

00:20:01   and they're gonna ship a product

00:20:03   or whether it's the proof

00:20:05   that they are never gonna ship a product.

00:20:08   It could be either one.

00:20:10   - I don't know.

00:20:12   - I do think Tim Cook wants it to be real.

00:20:13   - Yes, I mean, I think they do.

00:20:14   - Yeah, and whether this is, I think maybe, you know,

00:20:17   who knows whether Kevin Lynch has gone in there

00:20:19   and said this needs to be real and has discovered

00:20:22   we are going to make it real or has discovered,

00:20:24   oh, it is not real.

00:20:25   But like, I could totally see after all of this time

00:20:28   and all this money and all of these people,

00:20:29   Tim Cook taking Kevin Lynch,

00:20:31   who basically got the Apple Watch across the finish line

00:20:35   and said, "Kevin, you need to get this thing

00:20:37   across the finish line."

00:20:38   I think that's almost certainly what's going on.

00:20:42   Like I really based on the tea leaves here,

00:20:44   I would think that.

00:20:45   I just don't know whether the result is, oh, Tim, mm-mm.

00:20:49   (laughing)

00:20:50   Or no, it's not gonna happen.

00:20:52   Or whether it's like, yeah, we'll make it happen.

00:20:54   - I wouldn't be willing to put money on this,

00:20:56   but I don't think this product's ever real.

00:20:58   - Yeah, I, if I-

00:21:02   - I think there's too many problems inherent

00:21:04   with creating a self-driving car

00:21:05   that Apple would not be willing to approach

00:21:09   with push, come to shove.

00:21:11   I think you're probably right.

00:21:13   I think that the most likely scenario is going to be

00:21:16   that Apple takes its tech that it builds

00:21:20   as a part of this project

00:21:22   and tries to turn it into something else,

00:21:27   maybe by finding a partner, maybe by selling it off.

00:21:32   But yeah, I wouldn't say that it's more likely than not

00:21:36   that there's an Apple-powered car out there in five years.

00:21:40   - Yeah, I don't even mean just like the issues

00:21:43   of building a car.

00:21:44   I'm not saying you're saying this,

00:21:46   but I mean like even if they partnered with BMW

00:21:49   and said like Apple's the brains behind this software,

00:21:52   I just can't imagine it.

00:21:54   There's so many problems that are tied to this.

00:21:56   - I didn't detail my scenario as much as I would

00:22:01   or could have because what I would then say is,

00:22:04   and then even if they do something like that,

00:22:06   it's entirely possible that it goes nowhere

00:22:09   or isn't very good because it's been boiled down

00:22:12   to just like this last little part.

00:22:14   And it's sort of nothing

00:22:16   or somebody makes a deal with Apple 'cause it's Apple,

00:22:18   but it turns out that it amounts to nothing.

00:22:20   I mean, there are lots of ways that could go.

00:22:22   I'm not saying they couldn't do it.

00:22:24   I'm just saying that it's really hard.

00:22:27   My product line about this has always been,

00:22:32   Apple looks at the future,

00:22:34   sees that the future of automotive

00:22:36   includes things Apple is good at.

00:22:39   and thinks, why not us and puts money into it,

00:22:42   to investigate it.

00:22:44   Even after all of that money, all of that sunk cost,

00:22:47   it's not bad to say, oh, we learned why it's not us.

00:22:52   Right? It's not bad to say that.

00:22:54   But I also understand- - They should investigate

00:22:56   every area. - Sure.

00:22:58   But also they miss their time, right?

00:23:00   I mean, like their time would have been to either buy Tesla

00:23:03   or to do a Tesla-like or Rivian-like product

00:23:06   back at an earlier point,

00:23:09   because now all the major auto manufacturers are on board

00:23:13   and it's actually gonna be a lot harder

00:23:14   to enter this market.

00:23:16   And if they're really thinking that they're gonna just

00:23:19   develop autonomous golf carts for college campuses

00:23:22   or something like that, that's not much of an Apple project.

00:23:24   I don't know why they would even do that.

00:23:26   So I don't know, they may have missed their moment.

00:23:29   I think when all is said and done,

00:23:31   if this amounts to nothing,

00:23:32   I think they absolutely should have done it.

00:23:35   They should have taken their shot

00:23:36   because I think it is true that there are a lot of things

00:23:39   that Apple does very well that might translate

00:23:41   to the future of automotive, but for whatever reason,

00:23:44   it just doesn't seem to have panned out.

00:23:47   I'm not sure it's gonna pan out for Google either,

00:23:49   to be fair. - No.

00:23:50   - I mean, yeah, right?

00:23:51   - Well, maybe.

00:23:52   So, going back to what you were just saying,

00:23:54   I think the thing you've hit on really nicely there is,

00:23:57   it also, I think, couples with Mark Gurman's other reporting

00:24:00   that we were talking about a few weeks ago

00:24:02   of Apple wants to leapfrog everyone

00:24:05   and make this incredible car

00:24:06   that doesn't even need a steering wheel.

00:24:08   which we know is just unrealistic for so many reasons,

00:24:12   if that is the case.

00:24:13   However, I can see that that's what they're going for

00:24:16   because Apple's whole thing is we've made something

00:24:18   that's so much better than everyone else, right?

00:24:20   And the only thing that can be better

00:24:22   than all of these car companies making really great

00:24:25   electric cars which do a bunch of interesting

00:24:28   but not completely full self-driving stuff

00:24:30   is to go to that level.

00:24:32   Now if they would have started this years ago,

00:24:34   they could have produced something that's like,

00:24:37   what people think about Tesla,

00:24:40   and that would have been all they needed to do.

00:24:42   And it would have leapfrogged what everyone else is doing,

00:24:45   but they're too late.

00:24:46   So if they needed to do that now,

00:24:48   the level they have to go to is so far.

00:24:50   And so what I was going to say about Google is,

00:24:52   Google doesn't have the reputation of doing that,

00:24:56   so they could settle in the middle.

00:24:58   I don't think Apple would.

00:25:00   And I think what they would have to do

00:25:03   to be so far ahead of everyone else

00:25:06   is honestly, I think might need

00:25:10   two large scale infrastructure changes

00:25:13   that any modern society could actually handle.

00:25:16   I don't know. - Right.

00:25:17   Yeah, well, I think you make a very good point,

00:25:20   which is to differentiate themselves at this point,

00:25:25   they kind of have to do a moonshot.

00:25:27   And that's probably where that whole

00:25:29   we're not gonna have a steering wheel thing comes from

00:25:32   is almost like a pep talk to the people who work on it

00:25:35   that like this is our opportunity is in a, you know,

00:25:39   we can't just come out with a Tesla, right?

00:25:43   Because there already is one.

00:25:44   And now there are all the big automakers are doing it too.

00:25:47   So what can Apple add that will make this product

00:25:50   a product that's better than any other product

00:25:52   that's in existence in this category?

00:25:54   And you start perhaps to come down to,

00:25:57   well, we've got the Silicon and we've got the sensor data

00:26:00   and we can build something that, you know,

00:26:03   way better than those amateurs over at Tesla

00:26:05   who've been trying this for years

00:26:06   and still haven't gotten it right.

00:26:07   It's like, okay, all right, Apple, Apple, all right.

00:26:11   We'll see.

00:26:11   But the problem with that is it may be impossible

00:26:15   or nearly impossible, or it may be something

00:26:17   that Kevin Lynch goes in there and goes,

00:26:19   "Yeah, we could do this in 20 years."

00:26:22   - In one city.

00:26:25   - Right, yeah, sure.

00:26:28   - This is just, I think that this is a really,

00:26:31   really complicated problem that we're a long time away from having a solution to.

00:26:35   Like a long time away. And so I'm, and I honestly, I think the only way to get that solution

00:26:42   is a Tesla-like approach, which is building it as the cars are, you know, like cars are driving

00:26:49   around. And that information is being poured back in. And then we're trying to use that

00:26:54   to map it all out. Like, I don't know if you can just be like, bang, we did it. Here you go.

00:26:59   Like I don't, I just can't foresee how that's a possibility. It seems too complicated.

00:27:03   It is, it is hard to, to imagine it. I will, I'm never gonna say never because the fact is if you

00:27:09   had told me some number of years ago that Apple would have that Jon Hamm ad listing all those

00:27:14   people and that Apple, Apple won an Emmy. I think that's a less hard problem, but sure.

00:27:20   No, but like this is what I'm saying is, not that it's an easier problem to solve,

00:27:24   but that our conception of Apple,

00:27:28   Apple is so huge and has so much money

00:27:29   that I think you make a mistake if you say,

00:27:31   "Oh, Apple will never do that because..."

00:27:33   And I see people write this stuff all the time

00:27:36   where it's like, "Oh, Apple will never do that because..."

00:27:38   And it's always because I have such a limited view

00:27:41   of what Apple is, and I don't think

00:27:43   there'll ever be anything other than that.

00:27:45   And Apple has changed what it is so many times now

00:27:47   that I don't wanna say, "Apple's never gonna sell a car

00:27:50   'cause who can imagine Apple selling a car

00:27:52   and who would buy an Apple car?"

00:27:54   It's like, okay, but would that be not leaving the technical challenges alone?

00:27:59   Would that be outlandish to imagine a future in 15 years where actually some of the highest end cars that are being sold that are popular in parts of the United States are Apple cars?

00:28:11   Like that seems bizarre.

00:28:13   And yet is that any more bizarre than some of the other moves Apple has made?

00:28:17   I don't think so.

00:28:18   I think the challenge is what you said, which is can Apple be so far ahead that they can enter and blow people away?

00:28:27   And what they may need to accomplish to get to that level may not be possible,

00:28:33   given the state of roads and road technology and all of those other things.

00:28:38   So Apple making a car? I can imagine.

00:28:41   Apple making a full self-driving fully autonomous car straight out of the gate?

00:28:47   No, I can't imagine that.

00:28:48   - Let's just say it.

00:28:49   I think Apple could make a Tesla essentially, right?

00:28:54   I think Apple could make a car

00:28:57   like following the Tesla model,

00:28:59   they could make a more expensive, but super high tech car.

00:29:03   It would have their sensor technology

00:29:05   and their Silicon in it.

00:29:06   There's nobody, is there anybody out there

00:29:11   who owns a Tesla who says,

00:29:12   you know what Tesla's really good at is

00:29:14   software and user interface, right?

00:29:16   Like they release new software betas

00:29:20   and people complain about them and their UI is weird.

00:29:22   And when I drove a Tesla Model 3 last year for a week,

00:29:26   you know, it doesn't even have text size controls

00:29:29   for people who are nearsighted.

00:29:33   Like it's so, like they're not,

00:29:35   there are lots of things Tesla's bad at

00:29:37   that Apple is good at.

00:29:37   So like, do I think Apple could in five years

00:29:40   make a car that was basically kind of like a Tesla,

00:29:43   but had Apple's OS and silicon and software

00:29:47   and a few differentiating features?

00:29:49   I think they could.

00:29:50   The question is, is that what they wanna do?

00:29:53   Is that what they want their approach to be?

00:29:56   Is we're really just kind of making something

00:29:58   that's kind of like a Tesla,

00:30:00   but it has the Apple logo on it instead of the Tesla logo.

00:30:02   And if that's what they wanna do, I think they can do it.

00:30:05   I'm not sure.

00:30:07   I mean, and do you think Tim Cook

00:30:09   and all his operations people are like,

00:30:10   "Oh, we could figure out car factories."

00:30:12   and then they'll find out that they can't.

00:30:14   But right, like I think they could totally do it.

00:30:16   I just, is that what Apple wants to do?

00:30:19   Is that a product that is, that clears the bar for Apple?

00:30:23   And maybe it does, but it seems to me

00:30:26   that they wanna really make their mark

00:30:28   and not make a product that's kind of like me too,

00:30:30   but a little nicer.

00:30:31   But maybe, maybe that'll be their approach.

00:30:33   They've done that in the past.

00:30:34   - The factories, I'm actually pretty confident

00:30:36   they could do it because I don't know how much harder

00:30:39   it is to manufacture however many millions of cars

00:30:42   versus hundreds of millions of iPhones.

00:30:44   Like I feel like, you know.

00:30:45   - But you have to have a partner.

00:30:46   You do have to have a manufacturing partner.

00:30:48   - But they, you know, they have,

00:30:50   I'm sure that Foxconn could help them do it, you know.

00:30:54   - They could absolutely do it.

00:30:55   I agree with you.

00:30:56   I think in five years they could do it, for sure.

00:30:59   - One of the first things that I was like,

00:31:01   no way would they do it, this is how would you sell them?

00:31:03   But Tesla don't have showrooms.

00:31:05   You just buy them online, right?

00:31:07   Like, I mean, you can go and like,

00:31:09   and they could set that up, right?

00:31:10   Like, you know, you see that the Tesla place is in the mall.

00:31:12   They could do that.

00:31:13   - Oh sure.

00:31:14   - 'Cause that's not like how I've always thought of it.

00:31:15   - They have a place in the mall.

00:31:16   - Yeah.

00:31:17   - They already have it.

00:31:18   - Yeah, and then they just rent out

00:31:20   some car parking spaces downstairs

00:31:21   so people could do test drives if they really wanted to.

00:31:23   But when I first heard about that,

00:31:25   I was like, oh no, Apple are not gonna have dealerships.

00:31:28   But they could do what Tesla has done,

00:31:31   which is a surprise the way that they've ended up doing it.

00:31:34   So yeah, it's an interesting way

00:31:37   that Tesla has done it,

00:31:41   that Apple could crib if they wanted to.

00:31:42   but I just think that the reasons now is just,

00:31:44   I'm not sure that they could differentiate the way

00:31:46   that they would probably want to.

00:31:47   - So here's my counter argument,

00:31:48   'cause I like this way of thinking

00:31:50   that Apple wants to come in and be the best.

00:31:52   And I think that's what's happening with the AR stuff

00:31:55   or NVR stuff, is that Apple's gonna come in with a product

00:31:58   whenever they do it, later this year maybe,

00:32:01   and they're gonna say, "Well, we've got the best

00:32:02   'cause we've got the best screens

00:32:03   and we've got the best silicon

00:32:04   and it's gonna be the best this metric

00:32:06   that you've never heard of."

00:32:07   And like, there's all this stuff going on

00:32:11   that makes it like we're taking it to the next level.

00:32:15   Like, what do you do in a car?

00:32:17   Can you do that?

00:32:17   Is it full self-driving?

00:32:18   What is it?

00:32:20   But let me just say, Apple has another history here,

00:32:24   which is the history of picking the right moment

00:32:27   and coming into a market where everybody's like,

00:32:31   "Look, we already did that."

00:32:33   And then Apple comes in with something and says,

00:32:34   "Yeah, but we waited until the moment

00:32:36   "where it could be just good enough

00:32:38   that this is the moment when people are really going to start buying it. And if you believe

00:32:44   that electric car sales are even now, they're ticking up, but there's still a small percentage

00:32:50   of the market. But there's some thought that maybe 2018 or 2019 was peak internal combustion

00:32:54   engine sales, and it's all downhill for ICE for now, and it's all uphill for electric

00:33:00   cars, which is great because they're great uphill. If you ever drew one up a hill, it's

00:33:06   It's a good time.

00:33:07   So you could argue that.

00:33:09   You could argue that now is actually the time,

00:33:10   just like when Apple did a music player

00:33:13   and there were already music players,

00:33:14   but the iPod came out and they're like,

00:33:15   "Oh yeah, I know there were already music players,

00:33:18   but this is better."

00:33:19   Or when they did support a Bluetooth,

00:33:21   Bluetooth had been out a while and people were like,

00:33:23   "Why won't Apple support Bluetooth?"

00:33:24   But Apple waited and waited for its moment

00:33:26   and then it put Bluetooth everywhere

00:33:28   and people were like, "Yeah."

00:33:29   None of these are perfectly analogous,

00:33:30   but like Apple, one other aspect of Apple personality,

00:33:34   if a company can have a personality,

00:33:35   is the kind of like picking your spot

00:33:37   and picking the sweet spot.

00:33:38   And while I think Project Titan, this car project,

00:33:41   has probably missed the sweetest spot

00:33:43   because they seem to have been delayed a bunch of times,

00:33:47   I could make the argument that even if

00:33:49   what they can't offer is Tesla claims,

00:33:54   the full self-driving,

00:33:55   which Tesla can't offer either, by the way,

00:33:57   it's interesting stuff, but it's really not quite all there.

00:34:01   If Apple came out and said, "Well, we can do better.

00:34:03   Like our thing does more and better than what Tesla

00:34:07   or anybody else offers in terms of driver assist,

00:34:10   plus all of these other things.

00:34:11   - Full of self-driving.

00:34:13   - Yeah, yeah, fullest.

00:34:14   It's the fullest self-driving with a big asterisk there.

00:34:18   Anyway, I think you could make the argument

00:34:20   that that is an Apple-like approach,

00:34:23   where Apple is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, Tesla, sure,

00:34:26   but Apple, right?

00:34:29   And whether they are confident that they can have a product,

00:34:33   they won't do is enter with a product that is a me too product that is lesser, right?

00:34:37   They're never going to do that. They need to be able to have something to say, we could

00:34:40   do this better. But they could lower the bar to being like better than Tesla instead of

00:34:46   it being, we don't have a steering wheel. That's a higher bar.

00:34:52   Turns out this wasn't the rumor round up at all. It was a upshift.

00:34:54   Yeah, it's upshift.

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00:37:12   for their support of this show and Relay FM. Now we'll do the rumor roundup.

00:37:16   Yeah, well, I mean, it's thank you for Mark Gurman for making us deeply consider

00:37:21   Apple Car again. Like, it's just it just emerges. Well, we'll go back to Mark. Apple is preparing

00:37:30   for their widest array of new hardware products in its history this fall. Gurman expects this to

00:37:37   consist of four new iPhones, a low-end MacBook Pro, updated iMac, Mac Pro, MacBook Air, AirPods Pro,

00:37:45   three Apple Watch models, a new base level iPad

00:37:48   and new iPad Pros.

00:37:51   Mark says, "Given the more significant changes

00:37:53   in the pipeline for this year,

00:37:55   I'd expect the new iPad Pro to come later than the spring."

00:37:59   So this is the overall lineup that Mark is expecting.

00:38:03   - Yeah, I don't know what to think of this

00:38:06   because it feels like

00:38:09   there should be more

00:38:14   in the spring and less in the fall.

00:38:17   And I don't know whether I'm skeptical,

00:38:20   here's the problem.

00:38:21   I don't know whether I'm skeptical

00:38:22   that there's gonna be so many products held till the fall

00:38:26   or whether I'm skeptical that all the products will,

00:38:29   like you have to accept the idea like,

00:38:30   oh, well, products are gonna be delayed till the fall,

00:38:33   but the products in the fall aren't gonna be delayed

00:38:35   until next year.

00:38:36   And I wonder about that too.

00:38:37   Like, well, if you're pushing all those products

00:38:38   to the fall, are they really gonna ship then?

00:38:40   Or are some of them gonna get pushed even further back

00:38:43   so that late this year becomes next year,

00:38:45   as is so often the way.

00:38:47   I don't know.

00:38:48   Also, am I alone or did you feel this too?

00:38:50   You saw this report and saw how much stuff

00:38:52   he thinks is gonna come out in the fall

00:38:53   and just have that twinge of like, oh God.

00:38:56   - It made me feel really upset though.

00:38:58   - My fall, my fall, it's gone now.

00:39:00   - Well, there's two things for me.

00:39:02   One is that that's not one event, right?

00:39:04   This isn't just one event.

00:39:06   - No, it's three. - There's lots of events.

00:39:07   - Are you getting it yet?

00:39:07   We're doing three events this fall.

00:39:09   Are you getting it? - And also,

00:39:10   I prefer it when they spread things out

00:39:12   more throughout the year because that's more stuff to talk about throughout the year right

00:39:16   rather than between September and November there's six product lines to talk about that's

00:39:20   too much stuff. Mark Gilman does still expect a spring event to feature an iPhone SE, iPad

00:39:26   Air and a new Mac either a Mac mini or iMac featuring the M1 Pro. I would just say this

00:39:34   is in my opinion too much stuff for one three month period. It just feels like it's too

00:39:39   much. It's just, just logistically, realistically, like, this feels like too much stuff, maybe

00:39:47   more than they need, but I couldn't tell you what you would kick down the road.

00:39:51   Okay, so, SE Air and a new Mac with an M1 Pro is a modest event, but I could see it.

00:40:02   I feel like, I mean, there is that one report that says, um, that they put a lot of iPads

00:40:08   through regulatory approval somewhere, and it may be a different signal, but Mark sort

00:40:15   of says, "Meh, but it probably is going to be the fall."

00:40:19   Reading this, though, the thing that really jumps out at me is we've kind of been expecting

00:40:23   that there will be new iPad Pros with the M2, along with a MacBook Air with the M2,

00:40:30   that the M2 generation is going to hit, and they'll still be doing M1 high-end models,

00:40:35   but they'll also kind of push out an M2

00:40:37   that's based on the A15.

00:40:38   Okay, but he's got that slated for fall.

00:40:42   And I do wonder if, is that,

00:40:45   and you gotta read between the lines here,

00:40:47   is this Mark having his sources at Apple basically say,

00:40:51   "Yeah, none of that stuff is gonna ship when we want.

00:40:54   It's all gonna be later.

00:40:55   Just clear out the summer."

00:40:57   I mean, they are sort of saying that Apple's gonna,

00:40:59   other than, you know, WWDC, like OS announcements,

00:41:02   Apple's gonna do very little

00:41:05   other than a spring event until September.

00:41:08   And then they're gonna unleash this.

00:41:11   They're gonna open a portal to a dimension full of products

00:41:14   and just, "Bwah, there they are all, oh no!"

00:41:18   Right, like, I guess they could do it this way.

00:41:21   I mean, and he has a whole thing about how they're like,

00:41:24   they're seasonal and a holiday quarter and all that.

00:41:26   And it's like, that's true,

00:41:27   but they don't usually do it quite to this extreme.

00:41:32   And so that's why I keep thinking,

00:41:34   is this really about products that they wanted to come out

00:41:37   in the spring or the summer

00:41:38   that they just can't ship them in time,

00:41:40   or they decided it's not worth it

00:41:41   'cause they've got to prioritize using those parts

00:41:43   on the stuff that they're already shipping

00:41:45   so that they can fulfill those orders.

00:41:47   And right, because it's not just,

00:41:49   do we wanna release a MacBook Air?

00:41:51   It's do we wanna create demand for a new MacBook Air

00:41:53   when we're having trouble shipping our MacBook Pros

00:41:56   or our iPads?

00:41:57   That's the trick.

00:41:58   - Because looking at this list,

00:41:59   stuff like the MacBook Air, the AirPods Pro,

00:42:02   new iPad and new iPad Pros,

00:42:04   doesn't make any specific sense to release those

00:42:06   in September.

00:42:07   - I've also said, because I want that iMac

00:42:10   and I don't want to wait till fall,

00:42:11   but now I'm really fearing that the big iMac

00:42:13   is going to be in October.

00:42:15   - Well, that could be what Mark's saying is spring though.

00:42:17   He's not sure.

00:42:19   That update in iMac is the 24.

00:42:21   - Yeah, this is, okay.

00:42:24   Very specifically, he says a new iMac

00:42:26   featuring the M1 Pro and he suggests the iMac or a new Mac, the Mac Mini or the iMac.

00:42:30   I think this is what we've talked about, which is now that the M1 Pro and the M1

00:42:38   Macs exist, they could go in other products.

00:42:41   So a Mac Mini, you know, space gray, maybe Mac Mini, a new design or not new design,

00:42:50   but basically adding, um, M1 Pro and maybe M1 Macs, but maybe it's just M1 Pro options.

00:42:55   Makes sense, right?

00:42:57   Like now that they've got that chip,

00:42:58   why wouldn't you offer it in the Mac mini?

00:43:00   And I have said on numerous occasions,

00:43:03   now that you've got that chip,

00:43:03   why not offer it in the 24 inch iMac, right?

00:43:05   Like 24 inch iMac is enough size wise for a lot of people.

00:43:09   And I'm pretty sure they would have designed it

00:43:13   with some thermal headroom

00:43:16   because they would have learned their lesson

00:43:18   and they know that this design is gonna stay around

00:43:20   for several years.

00:43:21   Like, wouldn't it be nice if you could offer a high end 24?

00:43:24   That's different than saying,

00:43:25   here's our brand new big iMac.

00:43:28   I hope that they do that in the spring,

00:43:30   but the way I read Mark's report is more like

00:43:32   they're just gonna kinda add those higher end chips

00:43:35   to some existing models.

00:43:37   - Maybe, I don't think they would put anything higher

00:43:41   than the base chip in the iMac,

00:43:45   like the regular iMac,

00:43:47   in the same way that they wouldn't put it

00:43:49   in the MacBook Air.

00:43:50   Like I just think they could, but they wouldn't.

00:43:52   Like I feel like it's just gonna be non-pro, non-max

00:43:55   goes in the standard product line.

00:43:58   - The smaller iMac has always had higher end Intel options,

00:44:03   but not as high end as the bigger iMac.

00:44:06   And so that would be my argument is that

00:44:08   the 24 inch iMac maybe gets the M1

00:44:11   and then optionally an M1 Pro,

00:44:13   whereas the 27 inch iMac,

00:44:15   you can get an M1 Pro or an M1 Max, right?

00:44:17   - I just don't think you need,

00:44:19   I mean like look, as somebody who uses an M1 iMac every,

00:44:22   you don't need the power.

00:44:23   Like the power that this has with just the M1 chip

00:44:26   is more than enough, it's more powerful than my iMac Pro.

00:44:30   - Who's buying Macs with M1 Pros and M1 Maxes in it then?

00:44:34   - What do you mean?

00:44:35   - Like, I mean, you don't need more power.

00:44:37   Some people do need more power,

00:44:38   but they don't need more screen.

00:44:39   - Well, they'll get the iMac Pro and like it,

00:44:41   or they'll get an M1 Pro Max Mac Mini in the monitor.

00:44:45   - Right, but I'm just saying,

00:44:47   I don't see why offering a top end build to order

00:44:52   24 inch iMac configuration with an M1 Pro

00:44:56   and some more RAM and all of that.

00:44:59   - Okay, do you think that they would add

00:45:00   the M1 Pro to a MacBook Air?

00:45:03   - I don't because I think that they're gonna design

00:45:05   the MacBook Air to differentiate it from the MacBook Pro

00:45:09   and they're going to focus on it being an M2

00:45:13   and not an M2 Pro or M2 Max, but the iMac is a desktop

00:45:16   And I don't think the iMac is,

00:45:18   I don't think the contrast between the smaller

00:45:23   and larger iMac is the same as the contrast

00:45:25   between a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro.

00:45:26   I don't, I think that the, even the small iMac,

00:45:30   they let you build to order and crank it up,

00:45:32   not as far as the big one on Intel,

00:45:35   but you could do it because it's a desktop Mac.

00:45:39   So I think that's the difference there.

00:45:40   'Cause I don't think the Air,

00:45:41   I suspect the Air is going the other direction

00:45:43   where they're gonna do a new version of it

00:45:45   that really is predicated on the low power

00:45:50   of the M1 and M2 base model simple chip

00:45:55   instead of what they're doing on the Pro line,

00:45:59   'cause they wanna differentiate those two,

00:46:00   but I'm not sure they wanna differentiate the 24

00:46:02   from the 27 to that extreme, right?

00:46:04   Like if you want a smaller iMac,

00:46:06   but you want a little more power

00:46:07   and you wanna give us more money, okay.

00:46:10   I think they could do that.

00:46:11   You're right, it is less likely

00:46:13   than just throwing it in a Mac.

00:46:14   Mini and saying, "Guess what? Mac Mini Pro is here now. Enjoy." But this is intriguing,

00:46:20   though. It's an intriguing report in an otherwise kind of boring, like, "iPhone SE? It's boring.

00:46:27   iPad Air update? It's nice, but it's not going to be that different, right? So it's going

00:46:31   to be kind of boring." And then a new Mac. Like, I'm still struggling to see what the

00:46:38   excitement is in this event, and maybe there just isn't any. And it's, we got these product

00:46:42   updates we need to do and here it is and it's an hour on video.

00:46:46   - Honestly, Jason, I think it's an iMac Pro. I think that's what that is the big star of

00:46:51   that event. That's what I think the big star in the spring will be. And I'll just say like

00:46:54   I understand where you're coming from. I think now honestly they will just, it is not a sensible

00:47:02   decision. It is just a like a product decision. That is the way I look at it is that the iMac

00:47:08   is the consumer device, so it gets to consumer chip.

00:47:12   And the iMac Pro starts with M1 Pro,

00:47:16   just because Pro, Pro, Pro, Pro.

00:47:18   - Pro. - You know, it's like,

00:47:19   why did they do it on the iPhone?

00:47:21   Why did they do it on anything?

00:47:22   Like, I think that they're just gonna draw a line in it,

00:47:24   whether you can do it or not.

00:47:27   Although I agree with absolutely everything you're saying,

00:47:30   I think it makes more sense to do it that way,

00:47:32   to have options in all of the Macs,

00:47:34   if you can put it in there, put it in there.

00:47:37   I just think my money would be on,

00:47:40   they're gonna make it like a, this is a fit for,

00:47:43   like you can't put, what do you want to put a max,

00:47:46   like a pro chip and a yellow computer?

00:47:48   What are you crazy?

00:47:49   - Well, we'll see, we'll see.

00:47:52   We still don't know whether they're going to

00:47:54   call the high-end iMac iMac Pro,

00:47:56   whether they're gonna call the high-end iMac

00:47:58   all models Pro or whether they're going to have a

00:48:01   non-Pro and a Pro version.

00:48:05   we have our guesses, but we don't know

00:48:07   what they're gonna do.

00:48:08   And Mark Gurman's story suggests that updated iMac

00:48:13   happens in the fall.

00:48:15   I read that to be the 27 inch, but who knows?

00:48:21   I don't know.

00:48:22   I think there's a lot still out on the table,

00:48:26   but what this is getting me the sense of is that

00:48:28   according to Mark Gurman's sources,

00:48:31   expect a light spring and then a heavy fall

00:48:36   and nothing in between, which is interesting,

00:48:39   but not unexpected given what's going on

00:48:42   with the supply chain.

00:48:43   It's not unexpected.

00:48:44   There are gonna be these like, you know, bubbles

00:48:48   in the pipeline where they're like, we just don't,

00:48:50   you know, everything slid back

00:48:52   and these things have slid back

00:48:53   and then we're gonna get up to speed

00:48:55   and then we're gonna blow it out in the fall.

00:48:57   Although I also would not be surprised if we get to fall

00:49:00   and some of this stuff becomes spring of 23

00:49:04   and that's just how it is.

00:49:05   Yeah.

00:49:06   - They're giving themselves as much room

00:49:08   in the calendar as possible.

00:49:09   - Also, what, I mean, here's another way to think of it,

00:49:12   which is what in Apple's product line

00:49:15   has to get replaced, right?

00:49:17   Like, okay, the high end, the large iMac is on Intel,

00:49:22   it needs to be replaced.

00:49:24   I could argue that Mac mini is on Intel,

00:49:26   it needs to be replaced.

00:49:27   So like models that are not yet off of Intel

00:49:31   need to be replaced.

00:49:33   Okay, we can do that.

00:49:35   Maybe that 13-inch MacBook Pro,

00:49:37   could it get an M1 Pro option?

00:49:41   I think that's another one where like maybe,

00:49:44   but like, and the Mac Pro, they want to do that.

00:49:47   It doesn't really have to be replaced,

00:49:49   but they really want to do that.

00:49:51   But like some of these,

00:49:53   a newer version of the 24-inch iMac with the M2,

00:49:56   a newer version of the MacBook Air with the M2.

00:50:01   Like nobody, those are easy in my mind,

00:50:05   as much as I want one of those MacBook Airs,

00:50:07   in my mind, those are the easiest things to push off.

00:50:09   - Oh yeah, for sure.

00:50:10   - And the Air sells really, really well, I get it.

00:50:13   - The new iPad as well, you can push that out, it's fine.

00:50:16   - The new iPad Pro model doesn't need to even be

00:50:20   on the 18 month cycle, you could afford to wait

00:50:22   with that one too, right?

00:50:23   Like they're fine.

00:50:25   Not that a new one wouldn't drive sales and all that,

00:50:27   but honestly, that iPad Pro and that MacBook Air are fine.

00:50:32   They are good, they are current, they are fast,

00:50:35   they're still great, they're still good values

00:50:38   for Apple products down the 999 MacBook Air.

00:50:42   It's all fine.

00:50:44   So if you're looking for things to delay,

00:50:46   there's a bunch of stuff that you'd be like,

00:50:49   it doesn't matter when this ships.

00:50:51   That M2 MacBook Air, as cool as it sounds,

00:50:53   as much as I want one and as much as I want them to announce it next month, if they announced

00:50:58   it a year from then, it would probably not hurt their business. So that's one way to

00:51:03   make decisions.

00:51:04   Tim Cook According to political website Punchbowl News,

00:51:08   Tim Cook is personally lobbying the Senate Judiciary Committee over a bill that has now

00:51:13   passed the initial vote to, among other things in the U.S., enforce sideloading on devices

00:51:20   and remove a company's ability to favor their own services on those devices. This bill is

00:51:26   going to advance to Senate floor now for voting.

00:51:30   - Yeah. It's interesting 'cause this gets into political details, which is why I put

00:51:35   a link in our notes to a report that's actually on Philip Elmer DeWitt's site, but he's quoting

00:51:40   a report from analyst Emmet Darianani, who is at Evercore and is a regular on those quarterly

00:51:47   analyst calls probably hear his voice later this week. And he is quoting an analyst at

00:51:51   Evercore as saying that this passing as a law is not likely. And so what this analyst

00:52:00   named Tobin Marcus says is the vote 16 to 6 overstates the level of support for the

00:52:06   bill. Some Democrats, including the two senators from California, voted it out of committee

00:52:09   as a courtesy to Senator Amy Klobuchar, despite expressing significant reservations. Several

00:52:14   Other Democrats have concerns and changes.

00:52:16   They want to make some of the Republican support

00:52:18   look soft as well.

00:52:19   And getting Senate floor time for this bill

00:52:21   before Congress shuts down for the midterm elections

00:52:23   will be harder than some commentators appreciate.

00:52:25   So this analyst says it could happen in some form,

00:52:30   but it's also not one of those things where it's like,

00:52:33   oh, it's got bipartisan support and so it'll pass.

00:52:36   It's got kind of soft bipartisan support,

00:52:39   but not maybe in both parties strong support.

00:52:44   So we'll see. But yeah, wouldn't that be,

00:52:45   this is like one of those things that we've talked about,

00:52:47   about do you want to push this too far, Apple?

00:52:49   Because you end up in a scenario where

00:52:51   like the government of the United States says,

00:52:54   you have to offer sideloading in alternate app stores,

00:52:57   and it's the law now, and that's just how it has to be.

00:53:00   Which is like, that's really bad for Apple.

00:53:03   - You accidentally created a bunch of buzzwords.

00:53:06   Like sideloading is just like a buzzword now in politics,

00:53:09   right? For things that tech companies should do.

00:53:11   Break them up, right?

00:53:12   - Well, because politicians want to be seen

00:53:14   as being tough on big tech, right?

00:53:17   That's what they want to be seen.

00:53:19   Fortunately, politicians also want to listen to billionaires

00:53:21   and valuable companies about harming American businesses.

00:53:24   And I'm sure that's what Tim Cook was talking about.

00:53:26   - That's why Tim Cook gets on the phone.

00:53:28   Mm-hmm.

00:53:29   But I was also reading on Axios a similar thing of like,

00:53:33   if this anything happens to,

00:53:35   if this bill ends up ever getting through,

00:53:37   it's not going to look like how it looks now.

00:53:38   Like there's a lot of desire to change it.

00:53:41   But the thing is, you don't know which part, right?

00:53:43   So like sideloading might get, I mean, for all we know,

00:53:45   sideloading might not be one of the things

00:53:47   that people have a problem with.

00:53:49   Like maybe the thing that like other people

00:53:51   in politics have a problem with is the ability to,

00:53:53   for a company not to favor their own services,

00:53:55   'cause what, do you know what I mean?

00:53:56   It's just like, which is why Tim Cook's on the phone,

00:53:58   'cause he doesn't know either,

00:54:00   and wants to make sure that it's gonna go exactly his way.

00:54:03   But I just thought that,

00:54:04   considering everyone we've been talking about recently,

00:54:05   this is just a pretty funny thing

00:54:07   that kind of came out of nowhere for me,

00:54:09   like this bill is like, "Oh, hello.

00:54:11   What are you up to?

00:54:12   - Yeah.

00:54:13   - Apple has named Kristen Huguet-Quayle

00:54:17   as their new head of public relations.

00:54:21   Huguet-Quayle replaces Stella Lowe,

00:54:23   who's been in the role since May, 2021.

00:54:25   - (laughs)

00:54:26   Less than a year.

00:54:27   - Lowe was an outside hire for Apple.

00:54:30   Once again, suggesting- - She worked at Cisco.

00:54:32   - That outside hires in high up positions at Apple

00:54:35   potentially struggle to match culture fit.

00:54:38   John Brower is the key example of this.

00:54:40   the guy who was brought in to run the Apple store,

00:54:43   like the stores, retail stores,

00:54:45   was gone within a very short period of time.

00:54:47   - And arguably Angela Ahrendts,

00:54:49   although she lasted longer,

00:54:50   but I'm not sure that that was, in the end,

00:54:54   the right fit either.

00:54:55   The counterargument would be something like

00:54:57   all the chip designers and Johnny Shroogee and all of that,

00:55:00   but I get the feeling like

00:55:02   they came in to establish a culture

00:55:05   in a part of Apple that didn't exist before.

00:55:09   And so when you're forging a new portion

00:55:11   of a corporate identity,

00:55:13   that's different than sliding into a role

00:55:15   that's been defined forever.

00:55:18   And I remember at the time we talked about

00:55:21   Stella Lowe being hired out of Cisco and said,

00:55:23   "That's a weird match."

00:55:25   - Didn't seem right.

00:55:26   - It didn't, like very technical

00:55:29   and a lot of corporate sales stuff.

00:55:30   And like, is that the messaging that you really want?

00:55:33   Was she just on a WebEx?

00:55:35   And they're like, "Hey,"

00:55:36   'cause Cisco makes WebEx and Apple uses WebEx.

00:55:39   - And also, I don't mean this to be strange,

00:55:42   but Stella Lowe's Twitter account was really weird.

00:55:45   The things that she was tweeting was strange.

00:55:51   Like her avatar was just a really low quality image.

00:55:55   Like it didn't feel like a PR person's thing,

00:56:00   especially from Apple. - Was she real?

00:56:02   Did she really exist? - No, but it was just like,

00:56:03   I don't know, it was just like a thing that is,

00:56:06   For one, the head of Apple PR has never had a public face.

00:56:11   And she did.

00:56:13   And this is like--

00:56:15   PR specifically, the head of PR, is probably

00:56:19   the most manicured position inside of the PR machine

00:56:24   that is Apple.

00:56:26   And the idea of bringing someone in from outside

00:56:29   after the position had been vacant for, I think, nearly two

00:56:33   years was very strange.

00:56:35   - Right, which means people who were working at Apple

00:56:37   were doing the job,

00:56:39   but including apparently Chris and Huguet-Quayle,

00:56:43   and yet they didn't get the job because they held it open

00:56:46   and they ended up giving it to an outside person,

00:56:48   which implies a level of dissatisfaction

00:56:51   with your internal people.

00:56:52   I think it's fascinating, especially for Apple,

00:56:54   because Apple has done this time and again,

00:56:57   and it's like, you know what?

00:56:58   At these high level positions,

00:57:00   it is becoming increasingly apparent

00:57:02   that you gotta be on the inside to understand it

00:57:05   and be a culture fit and then grow

00:57:07   and then reach that position later.

00:57:10   And bringing somebody, Apple is a weird company.

00:57:12   I think that's what we've learned is Apple is an outlier,

00:57:14   they're strange, they have their ways

00:57:16   and just hiring somebody from the outside to come in.

00:57:19   I imagine you hire somebody like Stella Lowe

00:57:21   because you wanna bring in her skills from Cisco

00:57:24   and wherever else she worked to put a new spin on Apple PR.

00:57:28   Because otherwise, why would you not,

00:57:30   when Steve Dowling leaves,

00:57:31   why would you not hire or promote his person

00:57:36   who was basically like high up working with Dowling

00:57:39   on the executive stuff,

00:57:41   which was Steve Dowling's previous job

00:57:44   before he was the head of PR when it was Katie Cotton.

00:57:46   Dowling was on the executive side

00:57:48   and there was another person, Natalie Karras,

00:57:51   who was on the product PR side.

00:57:53   And that was the like, which one of them is gonna get the job

00:57:56   and Dowling got the job, which I think cynically I could say,

00:57:59   oh, you mean the person who was really close

00:58:01   to all the executives 'cause he handled executive PR,

00:58:03   got the job when the executives chose him?

00:58:06   Interesting.

00:58:07   But Christian Huguet-Quayle also apparently was on that side

00:58:12   doing all things Tim.

00:58:14   And so the executives picked her eventually,

00:58:19   but not before they went outside.

00:58:21   And I just wonder, are they deluding themselves?

00:58:23   Are they like, "No, no, no, no,

00:58:25   we want something different.

00:58:26   We want a little fresh blood in the PR department.

00:58:28   we want to do things differently.

00:58:29   And then somebody comes in and I've seen this,

00:58:32   you've probably seen this too, at various companies,

00:58:34   various organizations over time,

00:58:36   the people in charge think they want change.

00:58:38   And then somebody gets hired to bring change.

00:58:40   And then all the changes they propose are like,

00:58:43   no, we don't do that here.

00:58:45   Like I've seen that time and again,

00:58:46   where somebody talks about wanting change and a fresh idea,

00:58:49   and then you bring them in.

00:58:50   I'm not saying, I don't know that this happened in this case,

00:58:53   but like I've seen that happen endlessly.

00:58:55   - But it's natural though, right?

00:58:56   Like she would have come in with her experience

00:58:59   working somewhere else.

00:59:00   It's like, I want to do it this way.

00:59:01   - And you bring the person in from outside

00:59:03   because presumably you want them to do that.

00:59:07   But it so often happens that when they get inside,

00:59:10   everybody goes, oh no, not really.

00:59:14   We actually want to do it the way we've always done it.

00:59:17   And I have a hard time looking at this exit

00:59:20   happening in less than a year

00:59:22   without saying that that's it.

00:59:23   And that's not necessarily her fault.

00:59:25   In fact, it's perhaps absolutely not her fault, right?

00:59:29   Because it may be that she was told,

00:59:31   well, no, no, I know that Apple is very particular,

00:59:33   but we want an outside view of this.

00:59:35   The people who've been running this department

00:59:36   have been here for years,

00:59:37   and we want somebody new to come in.

00:59:39   And now here we are a few months later, and she's gone,

00:59:42   and they've hired a long time person

00:59:44   who's been at Apple a long time,

00:59:45   and was one of the right hand people

00:59:47   of the previous occupant of the position.

00:59:50   And it's really like a reversion, like, no, no, no,

00:59:52   We actually want the successor who probably should have been

00:59:56   the successor, but wasn't for some reason, but now is.

01:00:01   And maybe there are personal things, you never really know.

01:00:03   We're on the outside looking at it.

01:00:04   - And it is also worth just noting,

01:00:06   Apple have said and Stella Lowe said

01:00:10   that she's going to be spending more time with her family.

01:00:12   But the thing is that is, whether that's true or not,

01:00:15   that's the line that like the cliche line of,

01:00:18   we're all gonna pretend like this was all good.

01:00:20   - Mm-hmm, yeah.

01:00:21   Which seems like a strange PR move, I don't know, man.

01:00:24   But like, the thing is, I completely am of the mind

01:00:29   that Stella Lowe was brought in,

01:00:31   told that Apple wanted to shake things up.

01:00:34   She went in and shook things up

01:00:35   and then everyone decided they didn't like that.

01:00:37   But you know, which is like, well then what was she,

01:00:40   she was always set up to fail.

01:00:42   It's like, I think this is a similar thing

01:00:43   with what happened with Angela Ahrens as well.

01:00:45   She was brought in to say, and they'd said to her,

01:00:47   "Hey, but can you just change our entire retail proposition

01:00:51   make it luxury. And so she did that.

01:00:53   And then they were like, "No, we need to sell our phones

01:00:56   on finance." And she said, "I'm not gonna do that."

01:00:59   And then that was the end of that, right?

01:01:01   - Yeah, I think that that's the best way

01:01:03   to evaluate that one.

01:01:04   So, this is, I mean, PR is different

01:01:06   because it's not public facing in the same way

01:01:09   as being the head of retail.

01:01:11   But, and Apple PR has done a bunch of things differently

01:01:14   over the last few years.

01:01:15   But the truth is they were doing that

01:01:17   under Steve Dowling too.

01:01:18   - Well, this is the thing, like,

01:01:20   my assumption would be, is you said that

01:01:22   Hugo Quayle was probably the person,

01:01:25   one of the people in charge of this change,

01:01:27   because Dowling's been gone for a long time.

01:01:30   - Yeah.

01:01:31   - Now it's just kind of funny that it's like,

01:01:32   oh, no, no, I know you were doing this job before,

01:01:36   and then we hired someone else,

01:01:38   but can you just do it now?

01:01:39   It's strange.

01:01:40   - Yeah, right?

01:01:41   Like, there are personal dynamics at work here,

01:01:45   and there's, you know, it's inside a company, who knows,

01:01:47   we're just on the outside looking in,

01:01:48   and these people are all kind of cardboard cutouts to us,

01:01:51   but they're also people with allies and enemies and quirks

01:01:56   and all those things that we just don't know about.

01:01:57   But it does seem really interesting that they went out,

01:02:01   they're like, left it out there for years,

01:02:03   ended up going with an outside hire,

01:02:06   which is almost like they were trying to see

01:02:08   if somebody would step forward from the inside

01:02:09   and felt like that didn't happen.

01:02:12   - And maybe it takes a bad person to come to you,

01:02:14   like, "No, I wanna do it instead now.

01:02:16   "I've seen the other option."

01:02:17   - Yeah, then you do the outside hiring,

01:02:19   you're like, "Oh no, no, we were wrong."

01:02:23   I mean, good for Kristen Hugo-Quayle,

01:02:25   like, "We were wrong, we should have hired you all along,"

01:02:28   it seems to be what happened here.

01:02:30   But I don't know, it's weird.

01:02:33   I will say the big change was Katie Cotton leaving.

01:02:37   Katie Cotton, and I've talked about her before,

01:02:40   she was, I would say, as close to Steve Jobs.

01:02:45   My perception was she was as close to Steve Jobs

01:02:48   as anybody at Apple.

01:02:50   And we don't talk about her a lot

01:02:52   because we don't talk about PR.

01:02:53   We talk about products.

01:02:55   And so we talk about Phil and Johnny Ive and Tim Cook.

01:02:58   But I think Katie was always there next to Steve.

01:03:01   Katie was controlling the message of Apple.

01:03:04   All of the Apple PR, everything they did,

01:03:07   all their messaging, like Katie controlled it.

01:03:10   And I think Katie worked for Phil, I think,

01:03:13   but Katie worked for Steve, right?

01:03:15   And she, don't get on her bad side, she was real scary.

01:03:20   I was terrified of her at various points.

01:03:23   And everybody will have their Katie story.

01:03:26   But, and she can also be very charming and nice.

01:03:29   You mean PR?

01:03:30   Like you gotta be able to do that.

01:03:31   - She's like Steve Jobs, right?

01:03:33   - Exactly.

01:03:34   But I would say Katie had her way of doing things

01:03:38   and it was really Steve's way of doing things.

01:03:41   And she was able to like get what Steve wanted out of it.

01:03:45   Obviously when you work for Steve Jobs that closely,

01:03:47   if Steve doesn't like a step that you made

01:03:49   in terms of PR or whatever, you'll know

01:03:52   and you'll know not to ever do it again.

01:03:54   So Steve passed away, Katie retired

01:03:58   with probably all the money.

01:04:00   The one of her two lieutenants gets the top job

01:04:04   and the other one leaves.

01:04:06   So Steve Dowling's now in charge.

01:04:07   That was the moment, that was the Steve Jobs

01:04:09   to Tim Cook kind of moment of like,

01:04:11   somebody new is in charge

01:04:12   who can make some different decisions.

01:04:14   And I think probably part of Dowling's pitch

01:04:18   in trying to get hired was we're gonna do things different.

01:04:21   So Dowling really did lead a lot of the PR changes

01:04:24   that have happened.

01:04:25   And, you know, sorry for the inside baseball everybody,

01:04:27   but like for those of us who cover Apple,

01:04:29   like the way they roll out products

01:04:31   and they got YouTubers involved

01:04:32   and they've got different ways of doing product briefings

01:04:35   and they've got like, they've,

01:04:36   after a period where they really didn't change

01:04:40   for a long time, really.

01:04:43   Like from the early days of Steve,

01:04:46   until sort of Steve Dowling was in charge,

01:04:50   Apple PR was basically always the same playbook.

01:04:54   And I don't know whether that was because the people

01:04:56   in the PR group wanted it to be that way

01:04:57   or because that was the playbook,

01:04:59   'cause Katie said that's the playbook.

01:05:01   But they did change.

01:05:04   And I think Dowling and his team felt the freedom

01:05:08   with Katie Gaughan to make some of those changes.

01:05:11   And I think that there were a lot of positive changes.

01:05:13   And I think there were a lot of like, you know,

01:05:14   creative things that we could debate

01:05:16   whether they're good or not,

01:05:17   but they were like trying new things.

01:05:19   And I think you've got,

01:05:20   after so much time of it being static,

01:05:22   them trying new things is a great thing.

01:05:23   Like just, you should do that as just,

01:05:25   I'm not talking about self-interest here.

01:05:27   I'm saying as a person in a business,

01:05:29   you should probably try different things

01:05:31   once in a while, right?

01:05:33   Not just follow the same playbook from 1998.

01:05:37   So in this, so they had the gap and then they had the new person come in and in less than a year,

01:05:44   she's out and they brought, they've elevated somebody from the team. Probably should have

01:05:48   done that to begin with, but maybe they had to go through the process, right? Sometimes you got to

01:05:52   go through the process to know what you, you think you want one thing and then you go through and

01:05:56   you realize you don't want that thing. You want the other thing after all. And they're fortunate,

01:06:01   I would say on one level that Christian Hugo-Quayle didn't say "bye" and leave. Like what happened

01:06:12   with Natalie Karras, who when Steve Dowling got the job, she was out of there and she was great.

01:06:19   She had a product PR, so I dealt with her a lot for years. She used to work at FileMaker. I dealt

01:06:24   with her for 20 years. I mean, a lot of time. But the moment that that choice was made,

01:06:31   she was out of there. And Chris and Hugo Quayle didn't get the job. I don't know if she was

01:06:36   up for it or not. It would seem that she would have been. And she was doing the work and

01:06:40   they kept not hiring a replacement, naming a replacement. But she's got the job now.

01:06:45   So I think that Apple may be fortunate that she didn't press the eject button when they

01:06:50   they hired this person from Cisco last year.

01:06:54   Maybe she was just biding her time.

01:06:55   Sometimes that's what you do is you get passed over

01:06:57   for something and you think this is gonna,

01:07:00   well, and you think this is not gonna go well, right?

01:07:02   Like I've seen this, I've absolutely seen this

01:07:06   where you're like, okay, that person doesn't realize

01:07:09   what they're getting themselves into.

01:07:11   And these people don't realize what they've just done.

01:07:15   Everybody's gonna regret this.

01:07:17   And this person isn't gonna be here for very long.

01:07:19   And maybe that was what she did, was like,

01:07:21   "I'll buy my time, this isn't gonna work out."

01:07:24   And well, if she did, then good on her

01:07:26   because she was right.

01:07:28   This did not work out.

01:07:31   It turns out hiring a new head of PR from Cisco, not a fit.

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01:09:19   Let's do some #AskUpgrade questions to finish out today's episode. Gregory asks,

01:09:27   "How do you keep track of your books across multiple services, Jason? I have

01:09:32   Apple Books, Kindle, physical, and a bunch of Audible accounts, and I often find it

01:09:37   difficult to remember where I bought something. Short of just checking

01:09:40   everywhere? Do you have an easier way? I don't. The truth is I buy mostly, I buy

01:09:47   almost entirely ebooks and I used to buy them all on the Kindle store and now I

01:09:51   mostly buy them on the Kobo store and so I don't have that many places to look

01:09:55   and it's not a problem. So I don't really have a good answer here. I don't know if

01:10:02   there are book tracking services, I don't do Audible. I mean I'm sure there are

01:10:07   - I don't buy physical books.

01:10:08   I don't do Apple books.

01:10:10   I don't know.

01:10:11   I think they all are geared toward you buying

01:10:14   just from them, right?

01:10:15   Nobody wants to help you.

01:10:16   So I don't have an answer here.

01:10:18   - Oh, pretty much.

01:10:19   - Nobody wants to help you.

01:10:20   - I mean like, you get these like TV tracking apps

01:10:23   or whatever.

01:10:24   - Yeah, I know, but I don't think they're like,

01:10:25   honestly, I'm not sure Gregory is the most common case here

01:10:28   where it's like I buy Apple books and Kindle books

01:10:31   and physical books and two different audible accounts

01:10:33   in different regions.

01:10:34   And it's like, I'm not sure that that's a real

01:10:37   edge case. So I don't know if there's a way. Can you like tag things on Goodreads based

01:10:44   on where it exists in your house? I don't know. Or in your digital accounts. I don't

01:10:49   know. I don't know the answer to that question, but I can't help. I'm keeping it simple.

01:10:57   We've done this before, but I'm going to do it again. Nougat machine, if you would say

01:11:00   nougat. Do you use contacts metadata to identify family members or do you instead have a contact

01:11:09   named say mum to display the familial relation instead of the proper noun in notifications?

01:11:16   This is so interesting, right? So if you didn't catch that, do you say for example have contacts

01:11:23   that says your mum's full name or do you have your mum's name? Like just say mum.

01:11:29   - Right, or do you add, I think you can add a nickname

01:11:34   as well if you want to.

01:11:36   - Yeah, you can add nicknames, but also,

01:11:39   Siri will make an actual link too.

01:11:43   So if you say, if I said, my dad is Jason Snell,

01:11:47   then if I say, call dad, it would be Jason.

01:11:53   - Yeah.

01:11:54   This is interesting, what do you do?

01:11:58   - Oh, I just have mom and it's my mom.

01:12:00   I don't have like my mom's full name

01:12:02   and then that's my mom.

01:12:03   I don't call her by her full name.

01:12:04   Why do I need that for?

01:12:06   - I have her full name.

01:12:08   I have my mother's full name.

01:12:09   - Is that how you refer to her too?

01:12:12   And this is Snell.

01:12:13   - Yeah.

01:12:14   I just don't, I mean, it's probably a legacy

01:12:18   of when my dad was alive,

01:12:20   it was both of their names in there,

01:12:21   but it didn't say mom and dad, it said Ron and Sue Snell.

01:12:24   So yeah.

01:12:27   I don't do that for anybody.

01:12:30   My wife's full name is in there.

01:12:33   It's not a nickname or wife,

01:12:35   or it's what wife is calling.

01:12:37   My children are their full names.

01:12:39   I'm a bad, boring person, I guess.

01:12:41   Jamie's-

01:12:42   - But you wouldn't, like, if you had like son,

01:12:45   like, you know, that'd be weird.

01:12:46   Like, 'cause you don't call him son, you know?

01:12:49   - Yeah.

01:12:50   Second child is calling.

01:12:53   - Favorite child.

01:12:57   - Jamie has, I know that Jamie has me in her book

01:13:00   as daddy Snell.

01:13:02   I forget what she's got if Lauren is mommy Snell or not,

01:13:06   but like she's done that.

01:13:08   And then Jamie also edited in Lauren's phone,

01:13:11   she actually edited her own contact

01:13:13   and put a bunch of heart emojis around her.

01:13:15   So whenever Jamie calls, it's like heart, heart, heart,

01:13:17   Jamie heart, heart, heart is calling

01:13:20   because Jamie decided to be her own hype man there.

01:13:24   (laughing)

01:13:25   I have a great one now.

01:13:26   All right, I'm putting my mom on blast here.

01:13:29   So back in the day, I used to have two phones

01:13:34   because I bought a new, I had like my iPhone or something

01:13:38   and I still was on an old contract,

01:13:41   which was a Sony Walkman phone.

01:13:43   And that was the number that I ended up carrying over,

01:13:47   but I had to change network to get the iPhone.

01:13:49   So I ended up having two numbers for a little bit,

01:13:51   but then I was able to swap that over.

01:13:53   So still to this day, we are talking over 15 years.

01:13:58   My contact in my mom's phone is Michael Walkman.

01:14:05   And I say to her, "Mom, should we change this?"

01:14:09   And she says, "No, I like it like that."

01:14:12   So to my mother, I am the Walkman, I guess.

01:14:16   So this is a thing that still exists.

01:14:20   I am the Walkman.

01:14:22   - You are the Walkman.

01:14:23   - That's amazing.

01:14:24   - And I cannot tell you how much restraint I showed

01:14:27   to say I'm gonna put you as daddy's now in my phone too.

01:14:30   But I feel like enough time has passed

01:14:33   from when you said that to now

01:14:34   or I feel like I can constantly say that.

01:14:36   I may put you as daddy now on my phone.

01:14:40   What is the energy we're bringing to the show now?

01:14:43   Sebastian asks--

01:14:44   - There's japes.

01:14:45   There's japes happening all of a sudden.

01:14:47   - A new display from Apple would feature a built-in webcam.

01:14:51   Now, of course, to set the stage for this,

01:14:53   all of Apple's Macs have webcams.

01:14:56   The Pro Display XDR does not have a built-in webcam,

01:14:59   and Apple even went so far as to work with Logitech

01:15:02   to create a specific version of their BRIO webcam

01:15:05   that had a magnet on it to go on the top.

01:15:07   - Yeah, well, it's because they couldn't afford

01:15:10   to put it in and keep the price down on the XDR.

01:15:13   - It's another $1,000 for a webcam.

01:15:16   - I actually think that they're probably,

01:15:19   so I think it should,

01:15:20   and I think that there should be.

01:15:21   However, what gives me pause is the XDR

01:15:23   and the fact that I think they probably heard from customers

01:15:26   who said, "We put these things in places

01:15:29   where we don't want a webcam,

01:15:30   and don't make us put a piece of tape

01:15:33   on your beautiful $5,000 display," right?

01:15:37   That there are places where they don't want a webcam,

01:15:39   but I would hope so.

01:15:41   I would hope that there would be a webcam

01:15:43   and maybe if they're gonna do face ID,

01:15:45   put face ID in there or something.

01:15:47   It should be a great webcam and center stage in there, right?

01:15:50   Like that's what it should be.

01:15:51   And quite frankly, I will be disappointed if it isn't there,

01:15:54   but that doesn't mean they're gonna do it.

01:15:55   They don't just release products to please me,

01:15:58   unfortunately, if only.

01:16:00   - I do think that they will.

01:16:02   I think the Pro Display XDR,

01:16:04   looking at the Pro Display XDR as reasoning

01:16:08   for any future decision, I think is a fool's errand.

01:16:11   Like that is a one-off thing for me

01:16:14   in the way that the Mac Pro was a one-off thing.

01:16:17   It existed for a very specific, like the iMac Pro, sorry,

01:16:21   it existed for a very specific purpose

01:16:23   in a alternate timeline that got broken

01:16:26   and we came back to reality.

01:16:27   Like, why did they not put a camera in that?

01:16:30   Well, because they just didn't,

01:16:31   because this was meant to be a replacement

01:16:33   for a reference display.

01:16:35   Like, you know what I mean?

01:16:35   Like, I just think it's like,

01:16:37   looking at that as any reason for future decisions,

01:16:40   I don't think is, like,

01:16:41   I don't think Apple's ever going to charge separately

01:16:44   for a stand on a monitor ever again.

01:16:46   - Yeah. - Right.

01:16:47   - I think you're right.

01:16:48   - It was just this one thing.

01:16:50   - Yeah, the XDR should not be hopefully

01:16:53   a proof of any future plans for monitors, but who knows?

01:16:58   Do I think it'll happen?

01:17:00   I mean, I hope it happens.

01:17:02   I don't know if I have an answer.

01:17:03   Do I think it'll happen?

01:17:04   Because Apple often will vex us with their product choices

01:17:08   for something like this,

01:17:09   but like a modern Apple display external

01:17:12   for people who have got a Mac mini

01:17:13   or whatever that device is that they're hooking up,

01:17:16   Are they gonna want a webcam?

01:17:18   Yes.

01:17:18   Are they gonna want center stage?

01:17:19   Yes, they are.

01:17:20   Why would you not do that and make them put something

01:17:24   on the top of their monitor?

01:17:26   Like, don't do it.

01:17:29   I mean, if they're worried about security concerns,

01:17:32   you know, make it available without

01:17:34   or sell a $15 piece of tape that you put up there

01:17:38   or whatever, I don't care, but I want it

01:17:40   and they should do it and they should feel bad

01:17:42   if they aren't doing it.

01:17:44   - And Splendid asks, "What do you use to synchronize files

01:17:48   "across your laptop and desktop other than

01:17:50   "just drag and drop?

01:17:51   "I found myself starting to learn to use terminals

01:17:54   "so I could work out how to write an rsync shell script

01:17:59   "but I don't trust myself to not delete anything."

01:18:02   Splendid stop.

01:18:03   What are you doing?

01:18:05   (laughing)

01:18:06   What are you doing?

01:18:07   Why would you do that?

01:18:09   There's a feature in iCloud to do this exact thing.

01:18:12   - Yeah, that's my number one piece of advice is

01:18:15   if you gotta pay a little more for iCloud, do it,

01:18:16   but like, use iCloud. - Don't do that.

01:18:19   - Sync your desktop and your documents folders with iCloud

01:18:21   and just do that and see how that works

01:18:23   because that is why that feature is there.

01:18:27   - Please stop.

01:18:27   - Or you could do what I do and have like a bunch of things

01:18:30   that are actually inside of Dropbox

01:18:32   and pay for Dropbox and use that.

01:18:34   And investigate because some of the apps you use

01:18:38   may actually have a feature that lets them sync

01:18:40   their settings across.

01:18:43   Like I use BB Edit and I've talked about it a lot.

01:18:46   I've written about it a lot, mostly in BB Edit.

01:18:50   You can put their application support folder

01:18:52   inside iCloud and it just uses it.

01:18:56   And it's documented, but it's like,

01:18:59   there's not like a preference for it, but it works.

01:19:02   And so, if that's what you're frustrated about

01:19:05   is like app preferences, you should check

01:19:06   and see if your app preferences have a way of syncing

01:19:09   to ask the developer.

01:19:09   And if they don't, you should say, please do this.

01:19:12   But like, I don't recommend writing janky scripts

01:19:16   or maybe your scripts would be pristine,

01:19:17   but still like, don't do it.

01:19:19   Like use the cloud services that have been provided to you.

01:19:23   Please.

01:19:24   - I'm so pleased that you stopped doing this and wrote in.

01:19:27   Because that meant that you had the peace of mind,

01:19:31   like foresight to be like,

01:19:32   - Maybe this is a bad idea.

01:19:33   - This is probably a bad idea.

01:19:34   'Cause there are lots of people

01:19:35   that do not stop at that point.

01:19:36   And then they end up going to the Apple store and saying,

01:19:39   please can you help me get my data back?

01:19:41   And the app store says, no, I cannot do that.

01:19:43   I use Dropbox basically.

01:19:45   If we're talking about file storage, it's all Dropbox.

01:19:47   I use Dropbox as if it is Finder.

01:19:51   Like that is when I open a new Finder window,

01:19:53   it goes to my Dropbox because that is where I keep

01:19:55   every single file that I care about.

01:19:59   - Although I will say you would be surprised

01:20:02   at what's in iCloud Drive because apps,

01:20:04   more and more apps are supporting iCloud Drive

01:20:07   for their syncing.

01:20:08   - Oh yeah, I use iCloud drive syncing

01:20:12   when an app forces that.

01:20:17   So like I have a bunch of numbers, documents or whatever,

01:20:20   and they sync of iCloud.

01:20:21   However, if it's something that I consider to be important,

01:20:24   I will save it out to Dropbox

01:20:25   and I will just open it from Dropbox.

01:20:28   Like I kind of treat the iCloud syncing

01:20:30   as if the app is just basically

01:20:32   what it is actually intended to do.

01:20:34   Like how you would have any app

01:20:35   just having its own data inside of that app, you know?

01:20:38   I could kind of treat it like that.

01:20:39   But if it's an important thing,

01:20:41   it will get saved out as a file.

01:20:43   If you want to hear more about some of the weird

01:20:45   and wonderful things that me and Jason are doing

01:20:47   with Dropbox, we talk about that in today's Upgrade Plus.

01:20:51   It's not related to this question, Splendid.

01:20:53   You're not going to get more out of,

01:20:54   we're not like hiding your answer in Upgrade Plus.

01:20:58   We talk about some other Dropbox related things.

01:21:01   If any of you want to get that,

01:21:02   you can go to getupgradeplus.com

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01:21:16   if you listen to the show, we record live, by the way,

01:21:18   if you ever wanna check out the show live,

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01:21:22   Anybody can listen for free at relay.fm/live.

01:21:26   We also have that in the Discord,

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01:21:38   Thank you so much to everybody that has signed up.

01:21:41   It really helps support the show

01:21:42   and we greatly, greatly appreciate it.

01:21:44   We also appreciate our sponsors of this episode,

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01:21:48   But most of all, we appreciate every single one of you

01:21:52   for listening as you do every single week.

01:21:55   And we'll be back next time.

01:21:57   If you want to find Jason in the meantime,

01:21:58   especially you do with the Apple results coming up,

01:22:01   go to sixcolors.com and Jason is @jasonell, J-S-N-E-L-L.

01:22:05   I am @imike and we'll be back next week.

01:22:09   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:22:11   Merci France, Merci beaucoup.

01:22:13   [MUSIC]