385: Millie Metre


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 385. Today's show is brought to you by Unipizza Ovens,

00:00:15   DoorDash, and Setapp. My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:20   Hi, Myke Hurley. Welcome back to Upgrade, a podcast you host with me every week.

00:00:25   I do. Yep.

00:00:26   When you're not gone.

00:00:27   There are thereabouts. I have a #snowtalk question for you that comes from Ryan.

00:00:32   Ryan wants to know, "Do you have family members that listen to your podcasts?"

00:00:35   [Laughter]

00:00:37   >> MATT, "Ryan, no. Nobody in my family listens. Actually, that's not true. I have my...

00:00:48   I mean, he's my brother-in-law, but just to elaborate, my sister-in-law, my wife's sister's

00:00:56   husband listens to Total Party Kill. I'm not sure he listens to The Incomparable, but he

00:01:03   listens to Total Party Kill because he will comment about that. It's very nice. He'll

00:01:07   say nice things about it. I'm sure he's listening to a million D&D podcasts, but he says nice

00:01:10   things about it. That's it. That's it. My family is not interested nor understands anything

00:01:16   that I do. Although I will say as a sidelight, my in-laws, Lauren's parents, read the Six

00:01:26   colors newsletter every week so every time I write something on six dollars

00:01:31   I'm sort of thinking about how my mother-in-law is gonna read this so

00:01:34   that's yeah it's in there so you got okay you got that part I had that thing

00:01:39   where I had to try and work out wife's sister's brother you know like it's a

00:01:45   brother-in-law but no wife wife's sister's husband that's what I meant

00:01:48   wife's sister's husband yeah he's a brother-in-law but it's two two

00:01:52   marriages linked there. Yeah, interesting. Only my wife, Adina, listens to my shows, I think.

00:01:59   I think my younger brother sometimes listens to this show and remaster, like, on occasion.

00:02:05   Like, he'll go for long stretches of time not mentioning that he ever does, and then he'll say

00:02:09   something, "Oh, I heard you say that in such and such places. It's difficult for me to know." But

00:02:14   I know Adina listens, but that's it for me. Well, that's very nice of her. I think so. She listens

00:02:20   to this show, which I appreciate.

00:02:23   - That's great.

00:02:25   Hi, Adina, thank you for listening.

00:02:26   - If you'd like to send in a Snow Talk question of your own,

00:02:29   you can send it in over Twitter with the hashtag SnowTalk

00:02:32   or in the Relay FM members Discord,

00:02:34   with question mark SnowTalk.

00:02:36   I have a couple of things of note

00:02:38   and then we've got a lot of follow up to get to today.

00:02:41   First up, the Upgradies nominations are open,

00:02:44   so go to Upgradies.vote.

00:02:47   The nominations are going to be closing on the 21st of December, so if you want to get

00:02:52   your voice heard, you can go to the upgradeers. You don't need to vote in every category,

00:02:56   if that's intimidating to you when you go to the voting list. You can just nominate

00:03:00   for the things that you want and get them in, and you may help us with the upgradeers

00:03:05   for this year.

00:03:06   Yeah, it's not just about getting your voice heard and voting. It's also helping us, so

00:03:12   We appreciate the help and remind us who we have forgotten

00:03:15   most of what happened this year.

00:03:18   So please remind us.

00:03:19   - I skimmed through some of the nominations so far

00:03:23   and it already helped me make some adjustments

00:03:25   to my own potential pick list.

00:03:27   So thank you to that.

00:03:30   - It's very helpful.

00:03:30   I've looked in there too while you were gone.

00:03:33   I looked in there, I was assembling some lists

00:03:35   and I was like, let's see what the listeners suggested.

00:03:38   - Ah, see, I thought, okay.

00:03:41   So you did a, what was it like a Mac app pick?

00:03:44   Was it a Six Colors member thing?

00:03:46   - Six Colors, no, it's for everyone.

00:03:48   It's our favorite Mac apps of the year.

00:03:49   And we're gonna do some more lists of that.

00:03:51   And before I finished my list,

00:03:52   I went and looked at the upgrade list

00:03:54   and made sure that I had not forgotten some things.

00:03:57   - 'Cause it did make me wonder,

00:03:58   'cause I know it's one that we have struggled with

00:04:00   in the past.

00:04:01   So I wondered if maybe you'd peaked.

00:04:03   You peaked in.

00:04:04   - I had, it didn't really prompt too much in that category.

00:04:07   It did, there were a couple other categories

00:04:08   that were really helpful

00:04:09   and reminding me about some iOS apps and things like,

00:04:11   "Was that this year? Wow, I guess it was. I'll put it in."

00:04:15   It was easier to come up with those lists anyway this year.

00:04:17   There was a lot more happening this year.

00:04:19   It was actually kind of nice.

00:04:20   But yes, please vote in the Upgrades

00:04:23   and help us remember things from 2021.

00:04:25   - Next week, unbelievably,

00:04:29   we're gonna be doing the Upgrade Holiday Special,

00:04:32   which I can't believe we're heartling

00:04:36   towards the end of the year.

00:04:37   - I know, get your ugly sweater ready.

00:04:39   I know, so we want to do some holiday Ask Upgrade next time.

00:04:43   That's going to be our holiday special theme,

00:04:46   because I was away, and we didn't really have much time

00:04:49   to plan anything else.

00:04:50   So we'll do a regular episode, but we'll

00:04:52   do a double Ask Upgrade segment.

00:04:54   And so we would like your holiday questions for that.

00:04:57   So question mark Ask Upgrade in the Discord,

00:05:00   hashtag Ask Upgrade on Twitter.

00:05:01   Please send us in your holiday questions for our next Ask

00:05:05   Upgrade segment.

00:05:06   We would appreciate it.

00:05:07   Do you want to tell the listeners what you did?

00:05:11   - Yeah, okay.

00:05:13   You make it sound a little bit like I committed a crime.

00:05:15   I did not commit a crime.

00:05:16   I did a nice thing.

00:05:17   - No, but you did do something.

00:05:18   Well, it's not completely nice.

00:05:21   (laughing)

00:05:21   - Yeah, it's half nice, half good.

00:05:24   And I would say also inspired by Connected.

00:05:29   So somewhat theft there.

00:05:36   - Yeah. - So,

00:05:38   people who don't listen to "Connected",

00:05:41   what's wrong with you, but you may not know that that show,

00:05:43   which is full of japery and hilarity,

00:05:46   has a contest that, I mean, it all comes around again,

00:05:50   'cause we started doing the upgrade draft,

00:05:52   and then came the rookies,

00:05:53   a competition based on Apple events

00:05:55   that's different from the draft,

00:05:57   in that it has a complicated rule set and point structure,

00:06:01   and there's a lot of adjudication,

00:06:02   and there's a lot of things going on, but-

00:06:04   - Really it's just a peacocking contest ultimately.

00:06:07   - It is, there's a lot that's, well Federico,

00:06:11   he is really interesting and competitive about that show.

00:06:15   It's hilarious.

00:06:16   Anyway, but out of the Ricky's came the trophy,

00:06:21   the tricky trophy, which is this amazing thing

00:06:27   that listener Matt made out of wood.

00:06:31   that is, and it's got like little plastic sheets

00:06:35   and it replicates the connected logo,

00:06:38   but it's got like little marks for where the current annual

00:06:42   and keynote champions reside among the three of you.

00:06:46   It's beautiful.

00:06:48   And I gotta be honest, I was jealous.

00:06:50   I was like, why does the upgrade draft

00:06:54   not have a similar trophy for whoever is the champion?

00:07:01   And I was trying to think about how we could do this

00:07:06   because there would need to be two,

00:07:10   one for you and one for me,

00:07:12   and they would need two different states

00:07:15   where you won the draft or you lost the draft.

00:07:19   And I looked up at my walls where I have,

00:07:23   so when I was a kid, I had two felt pennants,

00:07:26   which are these little sort of triangular things

00:07:28   that you're supposed to put on like a stick

00:07:29   and back in like, I don't know, the seventies or whatever,

00:07:32   and wave at the sporting event with the color of your team.

00:07:36   But I had two of them and I had them on my walls

00:07:39   of my house and of my room in my house as a kid.

00:07:43   And one of them is lost to history.

00:07:44   The other one is actually on my wall in my office.

00:07:47   It's the San Francisco Giants Candlestick Park pennant

00:07:50   that I had when I was like nine and I still have it.

00:07:54   And then I've got another one that's the same size

00:07:55   and shape above it that is for the three World Series

00:07:58   the Giants one. It's great. It's fun. And I looked at it and I thought, hey, what about

00:08:02   a championship pennant for upgrade? But again, how do we handle the fact that one of us is

00:08:09   the champion and the other one is not at any given time? And then it hit me, what if I

00:08:15   got a reversible felt pennant? And so that's what I did. I actually went, I designed it

00:08:22   in Affinity Designer and I found a person who makes custom pennants on Etsy. And I asked

00:08:28   her if she could do a two-sided custom pendant with it's in upgrade gray and then on it there

00:08:34   is the upgrade logo on the front and around the upgrade logo it says upgrade draft and

00:08:41   then in large letters it says champion and I thought okay that's great what about on

00:08:48   the other side though what's the what's the side that you know do I want to have it be

00:08:52   like loser and I consulted with Stephen Hackett about this we went through several different

00:08:57   iterations.

00:08:58   - Loser sucks 'cause you would have to have just

00:09:01   the word loser on your wall.

00:09:04   - Until the next round.

00:09:05   And again, upgrade draft is a gentlemenly competition.

00:09:09   So what we settled on, and I did consult with Steven on this

00:09:15   is the upgrade logo is upside down on the loser side.

00:09:19   So it's pointing down to indicate sadness.

00:09:21   But it says challenger.

00:09:25   So that's the optimism it's right.

00:09:26   And you are now the challenger.

00:09:28   Someone's a champion, someone's the challenger every time.

00:09:31   And you are the challenger.

00:09:33   So that's what I did, and I got those, and I had one brought to you in California on

00:09:40   your way back to London.

00:09:43   And now we are both in possession with identical felt penance of the upgrade draft champion

00:09:48   and challenger for us to place somewhere in our workspaces in a position of honor, and

00:09:55   then of course honor being gentlemanly like by flipping it over if our status changes.

00:10:01   So that's that there you've got yours I've got mine and we now have the official upgrade

00:10:06   draft trophy which is the championship pennant.

00:10:09   I think this is very fun and I love that you did this and I enjoy very much I think you

00:10:14   did a good job with this. I think it's a fun thing and I genuinely appreciate that it says

00:10:20   challenger and not loser because I might be looking at the word challenger a lot prefer

00:10:24   that to loser.

00:10:26   Yeah, right. I feel like it's a, well, yes, of course. And I feel like that is in the

00:10:30   spirit of the, you know, you want it to be positive. You want it to be like, "Come on,

00:10:38   you can do better." So I'm looking, it was back in late October that I worked on this

00:10:44   with Steven. The other option that I gave him actually was, it says "champion" on one

00:10:51   side and on the other side it says "Champion" but above it it says "former".

00:10:58   That's also pretty good. That's also pretty good.

00:11:01   And he said "I think Challenger is better". I like the positivity, like it's the "I'll

00:11:05   get you next time" kind of thing. So anyway, that is now on the line for future, uh, future

00:11:12   upgrade drafts.

00:11:13   I'm gonna hang mine behind me, because I have these sound panels that go behind me, uh,

00:11:19   where I record from the studio and they like they have a kind of felty texture

00:11:26   to them so I think just a couple of pins will hold that up really nicely.

00:11:30   It's got the little streamers on the back so you can put like a little pin in one of

00:11:33   the streamers and then you can use a pin to like prop up the other corner and it works great.

00:11:37   It can't be permanently fixed unless I don't know one of us is particularly braggadocious.

00:11:43   No, you've got to be able to flip it. Yeah exactly you flip it right over and it goes from up to down

00:11:48   And then the great battle continues.

00:11:52   - It's very fun.

00:11:52   So today I think we have a pretty follow-up heavy episode

00:11:56   for a couple of reasons.

00:11:57   I have a bunch of things that I wanted to attribute

00:12:00   to last week's episode.

00:12:01   And also there's just been weirdly a lot of new news

00:12:06   about the same things that you and Dan were talking about

00:12:08   on last week's episode.

00:12:09   So that's funny for me when looking through

00:12:11   what I wanted to talk about today.

00:12:13   I would like to thank Dan Morin for stepping in

00:12:16   on last week's episode.

00:12:17   was a very fun show I've listened to over the last couple of days.

00:12:20   He hasn't done that before. I've had him on as a guest with Scoville Multi that I'm waiting

00:12:24   long, long, long ago. But since then, I haven't done it. And it was funny having somebody

00:12:29   who I do a podcast with every week. It was just easy to do in a way that it's... I definitely

00:12:37   make it harder for myself and stress myself out more when I've got like a very special

00:12:42   guest who hasn't been on before or who isn't a usual person I talked to, whether that was

00:12:46   as having Julia on or having Merlin and John Syracuse

00:12:50   on at various points.

00:12:51   Like I get worked up of like, oh, I gotta do this right

00:12:54   because this is very special and all that.

00:12:55   And not like talking to Dan isn't special, but it's like,

00:12:58   (laughing)

00:12:59   - Suck it Dan.

00:13:00   - It's like we do it.

00:13:02   It's just, we do it.

00:13:03   We were doing our thing and it just,

00:13:04   you fall into those rhythms and it was,

00:13:06   so what I'm saying is it was really nice to have him on

00:13:08   because I didn't feel any of that stress

00:13:10   and we just had a nice conversation.

00:13:11   It was great.

00:13:12   - No, it was really fun.

00:13:14   So I would like to just state that I do delete questions from our Google Sheets.

00:13:18   Okay.

00:13:19   So we have the Snell Talk and Ask Upgrade Questions.

00:13:22   So one, I delete them when they're used.

00:13:25   So I did go back into the Sheets and deleted all the questions you used.

00:13:28   Okay, thank you.

00:13:30   And I just straight up remove questions that we have no good answers for.

00:13:36   So every week I review the new stuff that's come in and remove the stuff that we use,

00:13:41   remove the stuff that I don't think we can use.

00:13:43   And I leave things in there. There are questions that I have gone back to like six months,

00:13:47   a year after they've been asked. One day I'll need them. And sometimes I get questions that

00:13:54   came in too late, but they could be used in a year from now. So, you know, they're all

00:13:59   in there. I have a plan. So for people wondering, "Oh, are all the questions left the bad questions?"

00:14:04   No, the bad questions are deleted.

00:14:06   It did look like you had a limit.

00:14:11   It looked like there were not questions

00:14:14   before a certain date in Ask Upgrade.

00:14:17   -Ah, see, this was a thing that happened.

00:14:19   So, the Snell Talk questions, they're all in there.

00:14:21   The Ask Upgrade questions, at one point,

00:14:24   I decided that I was going to use this system,

00:14:27   because previously, I wasn't deleting anything.

00:14:29   And then, at a certain point, I was like,

00:14:31   "All right, I need to start deleting these

00:14:32   because it's taken too long to load."

00:14:34   And so I just went to a certain point, I deleted all of the questions, and it just kept everything

00:14:39   and started filtering from there.

00:14:41   The beginning of 2020, it looks like, for Ask Upgrade.

00:14:43   Snell Talk, indeed the oldest question was from Graham in April of 2017 that I answered

00:14:50   last week, and I'm going to do you a favor, I'm going to delete that one right now.

00:14:54   Because that was a fine question.

00:14:55   There was nothing wrong with Graham's question, I just hadn't gone through it.

00:14:58   Asking me for my favorite law of physics, that's never going to get old.

00:15:01   That's a nevergreen question.

00:15:02   Except now that we've read it.

00:15:03   - Okay, all right.

00:15:05   - And I also have some comments on the Ask Upgrade questions

00:15:09   that were asked in the last week's episode.

00:15:12   - I just wanna say, I literally never look

00:15:14   in the Ask Upgrade or Snell Talk spreadsheets

00:15:16   because I wanna be surprised.

00:15:17   And so I legitimately didn't know the answer

00:15:20   when it was asked about how old they were.

00:15:22   And that episode yesterday, or last week,

00:15:25   was very much me

00:15:27   - Finding this out. - discovering with the listener

00:15:29   what was in those spreadsheets.

00:15:32   So you were talking about trackpads.

00:15:34   - Yes.

00:15:35   - And I am a trackpad person,

00:15:36   but I did just want to for people

00:15:37   that are not trackpad people,

00:15:39   'cause you were talking about mices, mouses?

00:15:41   - Recommended mouse, yeah.

00:15:43   - Yeah, I wanted to recommend

00:15:44   what I think is the best mouse available,

00:15:47   for most people, which is the Logitech MX Master 3.

00:15:51   This is the mouse that I use, and I love this mouse.

00:15:54   But what I wanted to just suggest

00:15:56   when I make this recommendation

00:15:57   is that people do not buy the version

00:15:59   that is called Logitech MX Master for Mac.

00:16:02   Don't buy that one because it's just Bluetooth.

00:16:06   You wanna buy the regular one, the MX Master 3,

00:16:10   because then you get the choice of either Bluetooth

00:16:12   or the receiver that Logitech make.

00:16:14   And I recommend using the receiver.

00:16:17   The receiver is more reliable than Bluetooth, I find,

00:16:22   especially like with, I mean, with the original M1 Macs,

00:16:26   it was a nightmare with Bluetooth.

00:16:28   but if you're using the unifying receiver it wasn't a problem

00:16:30   but I think the little unifying receiver is better

00:16:33   but it also has bluetooth in it

00:16:35   but the one they sell for the Mac doesn't

00:16:37   and I don't know why because Logitech

00:16:39   make the software for the Mac

00:16:42   for the unifying receiver

00:16:44   so I don't know why the Mac one

00:16:48   has no receiver but that's just the way that they do it

00:16:52   but that's why I wanted to recommend the Logitech MX Master 3

00:16:57   because I think it is my favorite mouse.

00:16:59   It's a very good mouse.

00:17:00   I have two printers.

00:17:02   They are both Epson printers.

00:17:05   - Is one at the house and one at the office?

00:17:07   - Yes, but the one at the studio,

00:17:08   it's the only reason I'm going to mention it.

00:17:10   The one at the studio is an A3 printer and it's massive.

00:17:14   It is the WF7840 by Epson.

00:17:19   - So if I remember my gray videos correctly,

00:17:23   A3 is twice the size of A4,

00:17:25   which is sort of your version of our letter paper.

00:17:28   - Wait, yeah, A4 is letter paper, yes,

00:17:32   and WF-8470 is for A3, which is, no, 7840.

00:17:37   I'm horrifically jet-lagged at the moment,

00:17:42   so I'm reading things incorrectly,

00:17:44   which is kind of hilarious.

00:17:45   I just read four numbers in the exact wrong order.

00:17:47   - Oh, okay, so an A3 printer, though,

00:17:49   that's what we would call probably tabloid size.

00:17:52   This is actually the size of my college newspaper.

00:17:54   It's in the US tablet sizes, I think 11 by 17.

00:17:59   Yours is basically 11 3/4.

00:18:01   For those who are not in UK paper sizes,

00:18:04   11 3/4 inches by 16 and a half.

00:18:05   - The paper sizes are not UK paper sizes.

00:18:08   They are international.

00:18:09   - Okay, whatever.

00:18:10   - Just so you know, you know,

00:18:11   I just wanna make, this isn't a me problem.

00:18:14   - 297 millimeters by 420 millimeters.

00:18:17   - I really like the way you say that.

00:18:19   - Meters for those using the foreign concept

00:18:22   of the UK concept of a millimeter.

00:18:25   - Millimeter sounds like a character in a kid's TV show.

00:18:30   - Oh yeah, about the metric system.

00:18:32   - Yes.

00:18:33   - Hey everybody, it's Millimeter.

00:18:35   Millie, you've grown several inches.

00:18:37   Actually, I've grown centimeters.

00:18:40   - That's good.

00:18:40   - That's how that goes.

00:18:42   Okay.

00:18:42   - So yeah, I have two printers, one's a really big one.

00:18:45   And I have tap to click on, we spoke about this before,

00:18:50   I use both.

00:18:51   I'm primarily an actual click person, if you'd call it that.

00:18:54   I don't know what the phrase would be,

00:18:55   but I like to have a tap to click as a fallback.

00:18:59   I did think Dan was really weird about like,

00:19:02   I tap to click for certain tasks

00:19:04   because I don't feel like I'm committing.

00:19:06   I found that, I was like,

00:19:08   that is a really weird thing to say.

00:19:10   - Sometimes you wanna click a little bit less.

00:19:13   And for that, you tap the click instead.

00:19:15   - I don't wanna fully commit to this click.

00:19:18   - It's like a half click.

00:19:19   Maybe it'll be a click.

00:19:20   And like I said in that segment about how I discovered

00:19:23   when using non-Apple trackpads

00:19:24   that I have all sorts of these gestures,

00:19:26   which again, I have built up over decades

00:19:29   and didn't realize I was doing until I was called

00:19:33   to consider it by the fact that suddenly

00:19:37   nothing was working right.

00:19:38   And I had to like take a video of my hands on the trackpad

00:19:42   and discovered that old PowerBook design decisions

00:19:46   still affect how I use a trackpad to this day.

00:19:49   It's only at that point that I realized that my fingers

00:19:52   are doing lots of weird things on the trackpad.

00:19:53   And that's probably why I don't like tap to click

00:19:56   is because my fingers are probably tapping in various places

00:20:00   that the standard trackpad with tap to click turnoff ignores,

00:20:04   but that tap to click recognizes,

00:20:07   and that's why I have to turn off tap to click.

00:20:09   - So thus concludes my comments on last week's episode.

00:20:14   - Oh, thank you.

00:20:15   And you seem to enjoy it.

00:20:17   Do you have a little out of body experience

00:20:18   when upgrade happens and you're not on it?

00:20:20   - It is weird. - Weird?

00:20:22   - I mean, it's weirder for another reason,

00:20:24   but that's an Ask Upgrade question for later on

00:20:26   in the show today. - Okay, all right.

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00:20:57   drop off setting that they have.

00:20:58   DoorDash have over 300,000 partners in the US, Puerto Rico, Canada, and Australia.

00:21:04   And you can support your neighborhood go-tos or choose from your favorite

00:21:07   national restaurant chains like Popeyes, Chipotle, and the Cheesecake Factory.

00:21:11   Now, Jason, this is usually the part where I say, "Hey, Jason,

00:21:14   tell me something about DoorDash."

00:21:16   But Jason, I can tell you something about DoorDash today.

00:21:19   - Please do.

00:21:19   - Because I just got back from the US.

00:21:22   - Yes.

00:21:22   - And at one point during our trip,

00:21:24   we were moving around a bit.

00:21:25   We got to, we stayed in LA

00:21:27   and we got there pretty late in the evening

00:21:29   and we didn't wanna go out to eat.

00:21:31   So I thought, I know what I can do.

00:21:35   I opened the DoorDash app. - You've heard the ads

00:21:35   on Upgrade, the popular program.

00:21:36   - I've heard these ads before, I've heard them.

00:21:39   And so I opened up the DoorDash app,

00:21:41   I looked about for what was around

00:21:42   and we just wanted something simple.

00:21:44   And so we just were able to order in some cheeseburgers

00:21:47   and some fries and some chicken nuggets very easily

00:21:51   from DoorDash and it just arrived in like minutes.

00:21:54   It was so good.

00:21:55   - So when you get cheeseburgers, fries and chicken nuggets,

00:21:57   are you getting it from like popular fast food restaurants

00:21:59   or was there like a nicer, higher quality place

00:22:03   that you got them from?

00:22:04   - It was a popular fast food restaurant.

00:22:06   - Popular fast food restaurant.

00:22:07   All right, well see, that shows you

00:22:09   how many different options you have on DoorDash.

00:22:10   You could have gone for like the Burger Bistro.

00:22:14   - You could have.

00:22:15   - Or you could have gone to Johnny O'Burger

00:22:17   and you know, you chose.

00:22:19   - We went for Johnny O'Burger, that's well known.

00:22:21   No, we just wanted something simple and reliable.

00:22:24   And so it's just like we just go for a chain.

00:22:26   - And to bring to you in your hotel room.

00:22:28   - Uh-huh, right to, I had them come to the lobby,

00:22:31   I went and met them in the lobby,

00:22:33   really easy, very happy, super simple.

00:22:36   For a limited time, listeners of this show, including me,

00:22:38   can get 25% off and zero delivery fees

00:22:42   on their first order of $15 or more.

00:22:44   - Didn't, you didn't. - I used the code.

00:22:45   - You used the upgrade code?

00:22:47   - Of course I used the code.

00:22:48   - I love it. - Why wouldn't I?

00:22:49   I was a new customer.

00:22:50   I wanted 25% off and zero delivery fees

00:22:52   on my first order of $15 or more.

00:22:55   So when you download the DoorDash app,

00:22:57   enter the code upgrade 2021 in the US, which I was,

00:23:00   or upgrade a US if you're in Australia, which I wasn't.

00:23:03   That's 25% off up to $10 value

00:23:06   and zero delivery fees in your first order.

00:23:08   When you download the DoorDash app in the app store,

00:23:11   Enter the code UPGRADE2021 in the US,

00:23:13   upgrade AUS in Australia.

00:23:15   One last time as upgrade 2021 for the US,

00:23:18   upgrade AUS for Australia,

00:23:20   and you will get 25% off your first order with DoorDash.

00:23:23   Subject to change, terms apply.

00:23:25   Our thanks to DoorDash for their support

00:23:26   of this show and Relay FM.

00:23:28   So a friend of the show, Min-Chi Kuo,

00:23:30   had a couple of reports about the Apple headset.

00:23:34   This is what I've decided to just call this from now on

00:23:37   rather than saying the Apple AR, VR,

00:23:39   like just Apple headset that will work for us

00:23:42   for the time being.

00:23:43   So a couple of reports, one suggesting that the tracking

00:23:47   of hand gestures and movements is going to be

00:23:50   the primary interaction method for this device

00:23:54   with four sets of 3D sensors to be used to detect this.

00:23:58   In total, Apple will detect, quote from Min-Chi Kuo,

00:24:01   gesture control, object detection,

00:24:03   as well as eye tracking, iris recognition, voice control,

00:24:07   Skin detection, expression detection,

00:24:11   and spatial detection.

00:24:14   - Do you have skin? - What are detections?

00:24:16   I don't like skin detection.

00:24:18   - Is there skin here?

00:24:18   Oh, I see skin. - Not sure

00:24:20   what skin detection means.

00:24:22   - It means that if you're a skeleton, you can't use this.

00:24:25   You're locked out. - Whoops, sorry.

00:24:26   Not for me. - Skellingtons are locked out.

00:24:29   I, so I have an Oculus Quest 2,

00:24:32   and they added some gesture controls.

00:24:36   - I think it's called MetaQuest now.

00:24:38   I saw an ad for this.

00:24:39   - Is it?

00:24:40   - Yeah, I think they dropped the Oculus brand

00:24:42   and they now call it the MetaQuest.

00:24:44   - Okay, great.

00:24:45   Well, that's not what I bought.

00:24:47   I didn't buy it something with meta in the name.

00:24:49   - Oculus, dammit!

00:24:51   - Whatever.

00:24:52   But what has struck me about it,

00:24:55   I mean, it wasn't initially designed

00:24:58   with this hand detection in mind

00:25:00   and it is kind of janky.

00:25:04   Like the hand tracking on the controllers is really good.

00:25:09   And then they kind of added in this hand detection

00:25:13   so you can not use the controllers

00:25:15   and just sort of like move your hand in a virtual space

00:25:17   and you see it and you can tap with your index finger

00:25:21   and your thumb to select things and all of that.

00:25:24   And it doesn't work very well.

00:25:25   But I will say this,

00:25:27   that has given me a window into Apple

00:25:32   talking about gesture control and hand gestures

00:25:34   and movements being the primary interaction method.

00:25:37   And I get it, I actually do get it,

00:25:39   especially if this is not something that is a,

00:25:42   that they wanna outfit everybody

00:25:44   with a little hand controls,

00:25:47   but they wanna just, you put it on

00:25:49   and then you just wave your actual hands.

00:25:51   And so I can see this, this is actually really important.

00:25:55   And I think could be a key to having it be more usable

00:25:57   by more people is if you could do that well,

00:26:01   so that it seems very natural to just move your hands around

00:26:04   to select things and do all of that.

00:26:07   And I'm not gonna make the quest seem bad

00:26:12   because it does it poorly.

00:26:13   I think that it was added to the quest.

00:26:15   It was not initially part of the concept.

00:26:17   And it's nice that they added it and are trying it out.

00:26:20   But I expect that a next generation headset from Meta

00:26:25   would be better at it.

00:26:29   And I expect that Apple,

00:26:31   that's one of the reasons Apple is doing this.

00:26:32   So I think it's a good thing.

00:26:33   Having been impressed by the controllers

00:26:38   that the Quest has, they're very good.

00:26:40   - They're very good.

00:26:41   I love those controllers.

00:26:42   - But there is something more natural

00:26:44   about using your hands, it's just gotta work right.

00:26:46   And the meta stuff,

00:26:49   honestly, when you've got those hand controllers

00:26:50   and then you put them down and then you pick up your hands

00:26:52   and you try to do things, you're like,

00:26:53   "Oh, I'm just gonna pick up the hand controllers.

00:26:55   They're perfect."

00:26:57   But if Apple could do that level or close to that level

00:27:00   with its headset, I think that would be a winner.

00:27:03   - Yeah, like I've used the hand detection

00:27:05   on my Quest as well.

00:27:06   And there is that thing where like,

00:27:08   you just look down at your hands and move your fingers

00:27:10   and they move and that's very impressive, right?

00:27:13   And you're right, like they put this feature in,

00:27:17   I don't think they built the device for this feature.

00:27:21   And I would expect that the next one

00:27:24   would be more built for this,

00:27:25   'cause it is clearly the best possible thing you could do,

00:27:29   right, for this type of hardware.

00:27:31   - I would imagine that for certain games and things,

00:27:34   like it will be much--

00:27:35   - Still want something to hold on to.

00:27:36   - Better to do something

00:27:37   and it's got some very detailed

00:27:39   kind of controller-y kind of things.

00:27:41   I get that, right?

00:27:44   - I mean, but there are a lot of games

00:27:46   that are just mimicking hand movements in some certain way.

00:27:50   - What I was trying to think is like,

00:27:52   thinking about playing Beat Saber,

00:27:54   with just my hands.

00:27:57   And on the Quest, you can't do that.

00:28:01   But if you had that kind of hand and arm tracking so good

00:28:06   that you could do the same level of precision

00:28:10   but just with your hands, that would be pretty great.

00:28:13   So yeah, this product is starting,

00:28:17   I mean, there's more information

00:28:18   that we're gonna get to in a second here,

00:28:19   but this product is starting to come into focus.

00:28:21   And will it be a huge hit?

00:28:25   No, but it's a first step.

00:28:28   And having used that quest, I'm interested.

00:28:33   I'm interested.

00:28:34   A lot of it's gonna come down to the software

00:28:36   and to the apps, but I don't know.

00:28:40   I think there's something there.

00:28:42   - One thing I would be interested in is

00:28:44   if Meta would put Beat Saber on Apple's device.

00:28:49   I don't know.

00:28:50   there? Is that their game? They bought Beat Saber, yeah. It didn't used to be, but they

00:28:54   bought it. They've bought up a bunch of studios that make the best games, like basically all

00:29:00   of the best Oculus games. Facebook, now Meta, bought them. Interesting. I don't know whether

00:29:07   they will work with a competing platform or not. Like, do they see it as an opportunity

00:29:12   for their software to be in front of more people and that generally improving the experience

00:29:17   of AR and VR everywhere or are they gonna keep that to themselves? I would say that

00:29:20   if they keep that to themselves somebody else will create a Beat Saber like game.

00:29:25   Yeah, Beat Saber exists on the PlayStation system but it predated the acquisition. I

00:29:33   mean and there is like you know there's precedent for it like Minecraft owned by Microsoft is

00:29:38   still available everywhere but at the same time Microsoft bought Bethesda and they're

00:29:42   not putting new games on anything outside of their own platforms. So, you know, who

00:29:50   knows? Honestly, I don't know what the right answer would be there. I mean, they would

00:29:57   like make a lot of money, but I don't know if that's core to their strategy. Because

00:30:02   Beat Saber is one of the killer apps for the Oculus.

00:30:07   - Exactly, and that's why you buy an Oculus.

00:30:10   And if they do a new version of the headset

00:30:12   where you just have to hold your hand like a fist

00:30:14   and do Beat Saber and it works great,

00:30:17   then that's gonna be another reason to get a Quest

00:30:19   instead of whatever this Apple thing is.

00:30:22   But again, I think Apple's going to take advantage

00:30:25   of the fact that there are all of these iPhone games

00:30:27   and they're going to get iPhone game developers

00:30:31   to add in 3D layer and get a 3D version

00:30:36   and support for hand controllers or whatever you call them

00:30:41   and get a bunch of stuff too.

00:30:44   And the question is, will there be killer apps in there?

00:30:46   And is somebody gonna make something that's like Beat Saber

00:30:50   or another rhythm game that's similar

00:30:51   that has you moving your body that will solve this.

00:30:54   But Beat Saber is really good

00:30:55   for people who haven't played it.

00:30:56   Like I've got, I don't wanna give away

00:30:58   some of my nominees for the upgrade-ies,

00:30:59   but I've got a couple Oculus Quest things

00:31:01   that I'm gonna mention. - Oh, that's cool.

00:31:02   - Because they're really fun.

00:31:04   And I've had a Quest for the last year.

00:31:06   So I've enjoyed those.

00:31:08   - I would hope that Apple would be smart enough

00:31:11   to work with some of their Apple Arcade game developers

00:31:15   to produce VR experiences.

00:31:18   - Oh yeah, Apple Arcade VR would be good.

00:31:20   And I'm reminded by James Thompson,

00:31:22   our dear friend, friend of the show,

00:31:24   dear friend of the show in the Discord right now.

00:31:27   We know James will be there, right?

00:31:28   James is gonna be there.

00:31:30   You'll be able to roll dice or flip coins

00:31:33   in virtual reality on day one, I predict.

00:31:36   - I just wanna have a really big calculator

00:31:38   and just punch the buttons.

00:31:40   - Oh, can you imagine a calculator that's like,

00:31:42   you gotta run around on it and jump

00:31:45   to press the buttons or something?

00:31:46   It's like a giant calculator.

00:31:48   - Like the keyboard in "Big."

00:31:50   - Yes, exactly, that's what I was thinking.

00:31:52   It's like that keyboard in "Big."

00:31:53   You gotta jump around on the calculator

00:31:55   in order to calculate things.

00:31:57   And then the tape, the tape on it is actual tape,

00:32:01   paper tape that just keeps growing and spooling out.

00:32:04   And if you wanna clear it, you gotta walk up to it

00:32:05   you gotta rip it off.

00:32:06   - Rip it off.

00:32:07   There you go, James.

00:32:09   Easy.

00:32:10   Now all you gotta do is make it.

00:32:11   - Solved.

00:32:13   - So Ming-Chi Kuo had a second report.

00:32:15   It was mostly talking about the second generation

00:32:17   of this device,

00:32:18   but it did mention that the first generation device

00:32:21   is expected to weigh three to 400 grams.

00:32:23   Which is heavy.

00:32:26   That's kind of like in AirPods Max territory.

00:32:30   But it all depends, as we know these things,

00:32:34   on the balance and the way that the device is weighted.

00:32:37   Like weight doesn't really mean anything.

00:32:37   - The Oculus Quest 2 is 500 grams.

00:32:40   So it would actually be lighter than the Quest 2,

00:32:42   which is good.

00:32:43   I'm also gonna say,

00:32:44   and I don't mean to demean Oculus slash meta

00:32:48   because I know that they sweat this stuff too,

00:32:51   but I would hope that Apple would have done a lot of work

00:32:54   on the ergonomics of this thing

00:32:56   so that it isn't like painful to put it on your face.

00:32:59   - I hope so too.

00:33:01   I mean, you know,

00:33:02   There are ways to make this stuff really comfortable.

00:33:04   I think the most comfortable that I've used is the PSVR.

00:33:09   That feels good to wear.

00:33:11   Yeah, the Quest is okay.

00:33:13   I had to buy the, like, comfort strap for it

00:33:16   because it comes with the discomfort strap.

00:33:18   But that's the comfort strap is very similar to the PSVR

00:33:21   where it's anchoring it on the back of your head,

00:33:23   not on the front of your face.

00:33:25   Exactly. It's kind of a must-buy for the Quest.

00:33:28   So I'm hoping that they'll be better about it.

00:33:30   talking about a second generation of this though, like that really does lock it in as that this is

00:33:35   really happening, that they've already designed the first generation one that we'll see next year,

00:33:40   and they've moved on to generation two, right? They're designing the 2023 headset now,

00:33:46   if not beyond. - Look, I know everyone talks about the headset as like, "Oh, it's just a precursor to

00:33:54   glasses." I don't think that's the case anymore. I think they'll make two types of product.

00:33:59   - Hmm.

00:34:00   - 'Cause, you know, I really do,

00:34:01   look, I know like there's a lot said about this,

00:34:03   but who knows how it's gonna play out.

00:34:06   But this idea of the metaverse is being pushed on

00:34:11   by basically all of the major tech companies now.

00:34:15   So, you know, you might not like the sound of it.

00:34:17   You might think it's weird,

00:34:18   but they're really gonna try and make it happen.

00:34:21   And everyone's trying.

00:34:23   - I think that the way I look at this,

00:34:25   and I think this is the way they're looking at it too,

00:34:26   is that the glasses thing is the obvious end result

00:34:31   of this product march, but that you've got to start.

00:34:35   It's like-

00:34:36   - Well, but there's always gonna be things

00:34:38   that wouldn't work with glasses.

00:34:40   - Right.

00:34:40   - Like they're not gonna be immersive.

00:34:42   - Or at least not anytime soon.

00:34:44   I would say it's like the PC universe where there was PCs

00:34:48   and then much later there were laptops

00:34:50   and then much later there were smartphones.

00:34:52   Like it takes time and you have to iterate.

00:34:54   You can't just jump to the end product.

00:34:56   'cause I think glasses that just go on your face

00:34:58   and that can be all of those things

00:35:00   is something that will probably be accomplished,

00:35:02   but you gotta start way before there and then iterate.

00:35:06   And especially if you're Apple, right?

00:35:08   That's what Apple does is start at an early space

00:35:10   where they think there's a viable product

00:35:12   and then they just iterate and iterate and iterate.

00:35:14   And so this is like that.

00:35:16   I think that this is something where there will be

00:35:18   AR glasses that regular people will wear,

00:35:20   but it might not be for five years, 10 years, 15 years,

00:35:23   we don't know.

00:35:24   And you gotta start somewhere.

00:35:25   I think it's interesting that the second "Quo" report

00:35:28   says that these products will seamlessly switch

00:35:32   between AR and VR.

00:35:36   Again, talking about the Quest, the Quest has this mode-

00:35:39   - This is the second one.

00:35:41   - And this is the second one, right?

00:35:43   Okay, so again, you see the advancement here.

00:35:45   So it's AR, but what does that mean?

00:35:47   Well, the Quest has a mode where you tap it

00:35:48   a couple of times and it uses its cameras

00:35:51   to show you what's around you, which is cool,

00:35:53   but it's like grainy black and white.

00:35:55   And it's really just sort of there

00:35:57   because you don't wanna take the headset off

00:35:59   and you need to find something.

00:36:01   But I look at that and I think about the rumors

00:36:03   about these high quality screens

00:36:04   and all the cameras and all the sensors.

00:36:06   And I think, maybe there's a shutter there that flips open,

00:36:10   but probably it's just going to,

00:36:11   the AR mode is just, it uses its cameras

00:36:14   to show you what's around you.

00:36:15   And that's how we augment reality

00:36:17   is we don't show you reality.

00:36:19   We show you our camera's view of reality

00:36:21   and then lay things over it.

00:36:22   So, you know, but this is it, right?

00:36:25   That's gonna be the iteration,

00:36:26   is the first one's gonna be heavy,

00:36:27   the second one will be a little bit lighter

00:36:29   and be better at AR,

00:36:31   and then they'll just kind of progress.

00:36:32   And I think they have to,

00:36:33   I think the whole Apple glasses thing,

00:36:35   like that's the dream, but it's gonna take them,

00:36:39   we've just seen this recently with the Apple Watch, right?

00:36:42   You gotta take time to iterate.

00:36:44   The first Apple Watch was big and slow,

00:36:46   and the app story wasn't very good,

00:36:48   but they got there in the end and it took a while.

00:36:50   And that's what's gonna happen with this.

00:36:52   That first one is gonna blow us away in some ways

00:36:55   and make us shake our head in other ways.

00:36:57   But that is, and a lot of people who kind of

00:37:00   don't follow Apple that closely miss this,

00:37:02   but that's the starting gun of the race for Apple.

00:37:07   Then they begin iterating.

00:37:10   - So the second generation headset will be coming in 2024

00:37:14   and it will have a lighter design,

00:37:16   new battery system and a faster processor.

00:37:19   - Right.

00:37:20   - So that thing about the ARVR was in the report

00:37:23   of the second one.

00:37:24   Actually, I think I misspoke.

00:37:28   It is also intended for the first one.

00:37:30   So my apologies for correcting you.

00:37:31   - I can't envision Apple not doing what the Quest has

00:37:36   at the very least, right?

00:37:37   And probably better than that, which is,

00:37:39   I'm really viewing this as being,

00:37:41   this first generation Apple headset

00:37:42   will probably be comparable to the Quest 3, right?

00:37:46   - Yeah.

00:37:47   - A newer version that may or may not exist,

00:37:49   I assume will exist at some point here,

00:37:51   where it's better than what we've got.

00:37:53   And so like the grainy black and white,

00:37:55   it's like, that's nice, but it's really not that nice.

00:37:58   It should be better than that.

00:38:00   And I'm sure Apple will make that better.

00:38:03   Even if it remains to be seen whether people actually use it

00:38:07   in that mode for very much,

00:38:08   it is nice when you've got something covering your eyes

00:38:10   to be able to see what's around you.

00:38:12   It's good, it's a good thing.

00:38:15   - Yeah, there's rumors of a Quest Pro.

00:38:19   - Ah.

00:38:19   - Probably similar-ish to that.

00:38:21   Like they're gonna make an expensive version, right?

00:38:24   'Cause we obviously know apples is gonna be expensive.

00:38:27   - Sure. - Whatever it's gonna be.

00:38:28   So, yeah, so I remain intrigued.

00:38:32   And so as I've said before,

00:38:33   like the idea of just pure AR glasses,

00:38:36   that doesn't excite me, but I do like VR experiences.

00:38:41   So that excites me a little bit more.

00:38:43   I'm still not 100% sure about this idea

00:38:46   of having a computer in my eyes all the time.

00:38:49   - Yeah.

00:38:50   - But I remain curious.

00:38:52   - Sure.

00:38:53   - All right, so one of the things that you and Dan

00:38:55   also spoke about last week was Apple's lack of some features

00:39:00   that we are expecting to come this year.

00:39:03   - Announced and yet not yet in existence.

00:39:06   - Exactly, so the release candidate of Monterey 12.1

00:39:10   has been, has come out, I think it's been two of them now.

00:39:13   And it does not include universal control.

00:39:15   So I think it's pretty set we're not gonna get

00:39:19   universal control this year,

00:39:20   it's probably gonna come next year.

00:39:22   This 12.1 release candidate does include some fixes

00:39:25   for the way that the notch behaves on the new MacBook Pro.

00:39:28   So there was some weirdness with some menu bar items

00:39:32   and some menus getting hidden behind the notch

00:39:37   or like covering each other up.

00:39:40   And this version explicitly calls that out

00:39:43   as something that they're fixing.

00:39:44   - Oh, iOS 15.2 is rolling out right now,

00:39:48   as we're recording. - Breaking news.

00:39:49   - So we can assume that-- - All the finals

00:39:51   are coming out. - It's all happening.

00:39:53   It's all happening, that's good,

00:39:54   'cause I want that macro toggle on my iPhone.

00:39:57   I wanted to say about something

00:39:59   that I hope that 12.1 will fix for me.

00:40:02   I've been having really weird WiFi connectivity issues

00:40:05   on my MacBook Pro, and it's something

00:40:07   that I've only really noticed as I've been traveling,

00:40:10   because I've been connecting to new WiFi networks.

00:40:12   But there are times where my MacBook Pro just cannot find any Wi-Fi networks, as if none exist.

00:40:19   And I have to turn Wi-Fi on and off multiple times before they show up.

00:40:23   It's very strange. And it's not a bug that I've come across because I'm in fixed connections all

00:40:28   the time, right? Like, that's the entire time I've had this MacBook Pro, I've not been going to new

00:40:34   places. But every time I need to connect to a brand new Wi-Fi network, it's really been struggling to

00:40:39   find them. Weird. Well, you'll have to report back.

00:40:42   - I will, I will let you know.

00:40:44   - On 12.1.

00:40:45   I am reminded, you talked about like fixing

00:40:47   the way the notch behaves and all that.

00:40:49   It's like, I can't check any of this out

00:40:52   because there are no longer any notched Macs in my house.

00:40:57   I sent back my review unit of the MacBook Pro

00:41:01   last week, last Friday.

00:41:03   And I used it as an opportunity

00:41:08   to test out a live streaming setup.

00:41:12   - Yes.

00:41:13   Okay.

00:41:15   - I gave you credit.

00:41:16   You suggested that it might be a smart thing

00:41:18   for me to do these occasionally.

00:41:20   And I think you're right.

00:41:22   When I've got products that are interesting

00:41:24   that people might wanna see that I could do that.

00:41:28   And so, yeah, I tested it out last week

00:41:31   with an irony laden concept, which was the ReBoxing video.

00:41:36   So I went live to put my MacBook Pro review unit

00:41:41   to wipe it using the new features in Monterey

00:41:45   to erase all on a device.

00:41:49   And then I closed it up and I packed it up in its box

00:41:52   and I put it in the box that it came in

00:41:54   and taped it closed and put the label on

00:41:58   and that was my live stream.

00:42:01   And then I went to FedEx's website

00:42:04   which I didn't do on the live stream

00:42:06   and they came and got it like an hour later.

00:42:07   So it's gone.

00:42:09   But if people wanna watch a guy put a MacBook Pro

00:42:12   back in a box, there's a video for that on the internet.

00:42:17   - You streamed on YouTube, right?

00:42:19   - I did.

00:42:20   I did. - That makes sense.

00:42:21   - Steven and I had a conversation,

00:42:24   Steven Hackett, obviously,

00:42:25   about your embrace of Twitch, which is great,

00:42:28   but you really need to embrace Twitch

00:42:29   because Twitch is its own culture.

00:42:31   And I think Steven and I both agreed

00:42:33   probably more work than we want to do.

00:42:35   So YouTube is there and it's easy

00:42:37   and I already do it for Total Party Kill

00:42:39   and I don't really want to have to learn

00:42:43   all there is to know about Twitch,

00:42:45   especially when I'm not sure how much I'm going to do this.

00:42:47   So I'm just going to do YouTube, it's very easy.

00:42:49   - I think it makes sense for the two of you,

00:42:51   if you're going to stream to stream on YouTube.

00:42:53   Like I've just, you know, that's more of a thing

00:42:56   that two of you are in.

00:42:57   Then going onto Twitch,

00:42:59   you've got like a whole set of things

00:43:03   - That it does however, YouTube is slowly ripping

00:43:06   those things off so maybe it's gonna come for you anyway.

00:43:10   - Excellent.

00:43:11   - Like all of the different ways that people can give money

00:43:13   and stuff like that if they want to support the stream,

00:43:16   YouTube is slowly incorporating all of these things

00:43:19   so maybe it's gonna come for you, you don't even know it.

00:43:22   - Oh that's fine, that's fair.

00:43:24   But it was, in order to get this going,

00:43:25   it was making some decisions about what was I comfortable

00:43:29   committing to and I already have livestream setups

00:43:32   for Total Party Kill for YouTube.

00:43:35   And so it was very easy.

00:43:37   And I can stream to Twitch too, and maybe I will someday,

00:43:40   but right now I think the YouTube,

00:43:41   and I already have subscribers

00:43:42   on the Six Colors YouTube channel.

00:43:45   - That's what makes it a good reason to do it.

00:43:47   And I can, it's for Steven, too, 'cause Plus as well,

00:43:48   like I think for the two of you,

00:43:50   like YouTube is still a going concern for your businesses.

00:43:53   - Yeah, a little bit. - And so this is an easy way

00:43:56   to like have more content on the YouTube channel as well.

00:43:58   So I do think it's smart.

00:44:00   I think it makes sense.

00:44:01   go out and buy a an overhead camera and some other all the stuff that has to

00:44:07   come with that and all that but I think it worked pretty well I think it looked

00:44:10   pretty good having a modern camera that I bought just for the overhead instead

00:44:14   of repurposing some crappy camera helped a lot. What camera did you get? Oh the

00:44:21   Sony alpha 6400. That's what I got. Yeah it's great. That's what Steven has too. Yeah.

00:44:27   - Yeah, if you have problems with it over heat

00:44:29   and I can help you out.

00:44:30   - Thank you.

00:44:31   - 'Cause I just had to deal with that myself.

00:44:33   But no, I'm really pleased that you're doing this.

00:44:35   So this came up on our keyboard club stream that we did.

00:44:39   - Right.

00:44:40   - Where I kind of was always, I've wondered for a while

00:44:42   that there is nobody that gets review units

00:44:46   does live streams of them,

00:44:48   like trying them out on embargo day.

00:44:50   And then it's 'cause it's a busy day for everyone.

00:44:51   - There's a reason.

00:44:52   - Yeah, super busy.

00:44:53   - There's a big reason that people

00:44:55   who are super video savvy are making their videos.

00:44:58   They're not doing live streams, they're making their videos.

00:45:01   - And they want you to watch the video.

00:45:03   - And the writers are writing their articles.

00:45:05   But there's probably a place in there,

00:45:07   and I mentioned this on the live stream,

00:45:09   but especially if you're somebody

00:45:11   who doesn't get it on embargo, although sometimes even then,

00:45:15   but when you don't get it on embargo,

00:45:16   what you end up with is you end up with a product

00:45:18   that nobody else has except the reviewers,

00:45:21   because the embargo dropped

00:45:23   and all the reviews posted on Tuesday morning

00:45:25   or Wednesday morning,

00:45:27   and then the product comes out Friday.

00:45:29   And you're sitting there thinking,

00:45:31   well, I can write a review, but it'll be really quick,

00:45:33   and I'll be competing with reviews

00:45:35   that people had a week to write it.

00:45:37   So that's not good.

00:45:39   So what do I do?

00:45:39   And the answer may be, well, I could do a live stream,

00:45:42   and then people could see it and ask me questions,

00:45:44   and it would be a product that I have that they don't have,

00:45:48   so I would be able to show it to them.

00:45:50   And that might be a little place to fill it.

00:45:51   So I'm gonna experiment.

00:45:53   It'll be fun.

00:45:54   I did have to take the upgrade champion pennant off my wall

00:45:57   before I did the live stream so that nobody saw it

00:45:59   'cause we hadn't mentioned it yet.

00:46:02   - That would just seem like you were really proud

00:46:04   of yourself.

00:46:05   - Yeah, exactly.

00:46:06   - Like you made yourself a pennant.

00:46:07   I mean, you kind of did.

00:46:08   - That did happen.

00:46:09   - It's worse if I don't have one, right?

00:46:11   Like if I have one, then it's fine.

00:46:13   We're on a level playing field here,

00:46:14   but it just is like, here's me congratulating myself

00:46:16   on my great wins.

00:46:19   We can now do some follow up for previous episodes that were not last week, because

00:46:23   there's been some news in the last week that I think has been interesting and of note.

00:46:29   So according to Bloomberg via MacRumors, Apple have lost three key engineers on their

00:46:35   car project. So they have lost the chief for radar systems, the engineering manager for

00:46:41   the battery team and a hardware engineering manager, which makes for a total of six key

00:46:45   departures from the team in 2021.

00:46:48   and they're largely leaving to two different

00:46:51   flying taxi startups.

00:46:53   - That doesn't even seem real to me, that phrase,

00:46:57   flying taxi startups.

00:47:00   That seems like a joke, like somebody made that up.

00:47:04   - Well, I made a joke on Twitter about this.

00:47:08   I said like, what do you think is more likely

00:47:10   the Apple car or flying taxis?

00:47:12   But I think the truth is that if you're somebody

00:47:14   who's working in this field and you're really excited,

00:47:17   flying taxi thing, they've got investment money.

00:47:20   So, you know, you're probably gonna get paid

00:47:23   or at least get some stock options.

00:47:26   And so there's maybe a chance of that

00:47:28   as well as excitement.

00:47:29   Like we're gonna- - Well, I have a question

00:47:30   actually. - Yes.

00:47:31   - What is a flying taxi?

00:47:33   Is it a car that can fly

00:47:36   or is it just a plane you take short distances?

00:47:39   - Taxi or not.

00:47:41   Taxi or not.

00:47:42   - Which one is it?

00:47:43   Do you know?

00:47:44   I mean, it's a flying device.

00:47:48   It's like a flying, it's like a plane,

00:47:51   except also like a helicopter, but yeah.

00:47:54   No, the idea is it flies to you when you get in

00:47:56   and then it flies to your destination and you get out.

00:47:58   - Wow.

00:47:59   I'm looking at the website.

00:48:01   Archer, it's called.

00:48:03   - Yeah, there's a couple of them, but yeah.

00:48:04   - It looks scary.

00:48:06   It looks like a spy plane.

00:48:08   - Well, I'm really skeptical if this thing is gonna ever,

00:48:11   these things are actually gonna ever exist.

00:48:13   But anyway, if you're well compensated

00:48:15   and you've got the challenge of doing something

00:48:17   that's really cool, 'cause it's not just a car,

00:48:19   it's a flying car, flying thing, that's awesome.

00:48:24   Okay, but an Apple, it seems to be,

00:48:30   wherever Apple's project is now,

00:48:32   it's probably a little more mundane

00:48:34   and they may also be bogged down.

00:48:37   And so I can see people saying,

00:48:39   "I'm leaving because it's a better job

00:48:41   or more prestigious or more money or something like that.

00:48:44   That all said, if I had to make a bet

00:48:48   about which one would be a viable commercial product

00:48:51   in the next five years, the Apple car or a flying taxi,

00:48:55   I'm going with the Apple car.

00:48:58   I can't believe it.

00:48:59   I can't believe there's something out there

00:49:00   that I feel like is even less likely than the Apple car,

00:49:03   but flying taxis, I've read articles about them.

00:49:07   I think it's really interesting, but no, no.

00:49:11   The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has given Apple the stay that they were looking for.

00:49:16   This was on the alternate payment processing thing from the Epic case.

00:49:23   So Apple have not had to make the changes to the App Store rules as of yet to allow

00:49:27   for third party payment processing.

00:49:29   And the appeal process that the stay is in conjunction with on the original ruling is

00:49:35   going to take about a year and Apple are not going to be compelled to make any changes

00:49:39   until the appeals process is over. The appeals process will now most likely go in Apple's

00:49:44   favor. So it's probably the end of that unless they do something of their own, which I still

00:49:52   am holding out hope for.

00:49:53   HAN

00:50:03   decision that was, you know, gonna make Apple make some changes and Apple

00:50:06   basically said, "Oh no, we can't make changes," and the Ninth Circuit has said,

00:50:11   "Fair enough, we'll stay this while we consider it," and I shared this link

00:50:18   with you while you were on your vacation and I believe your response was, "Boo."

00:50:21   Yeah, so I just want to see them moving in this direction and they're

00:50:29   not moving themselves and now none of the judicial processes are moving them either.

00:50:34   I just think that we've gone on too long in this and it's just frustrating to me. Apple

00:50:40   should make some changes.

00:50:41   Yeah, but it's not going to do it because of that one judge in this one case. That seems

00:50:47   certain.

00:50:48   I also have a couple of Apple TV+ Upstream headlines that I want to go over.

00:50:52   Oh great.

00:50:53   Just a couple of things. Apple Studios is going to produce and distribute the film adaptation

00:50:57   of Bad Blood, the book about the rise and fall of Theranos, and it will star Jennifer

00:51:01   Lawrence as Elizabeth Holmes with Adam McKay writing and directing.

00:51:05   Ah, this is part of Adam McKay's first look with, uh, deal with Apple.

00:51:09   Yeah.

00:51:10   That they, uh, that they got this. He's got a movie actually just out, I believe, but

00:51:14   this is, uh, uh, December 24th, I think, on Netflix. Is that a Netflix movie? Is that

00:51:19   the one you're talking about? The, uh, one with Leonardo DiCaprio?

00:51:22   Yes.

00:51:23   - Yeah, that's out on, I think it comes out in December.

00:51:27   - Well, it's playing in theaters now.

00:51:30   - Ah, okay, sorry, sorry, yes,

00:51:32   'cause they do the thing, right,

00:51:33   where they put it out first.

00:51:35   So it's out now, but it will be coming to Netflix.

00:51:38   That's a Netflix movie.

00:51:39   - So this is interesting,

00:51:40   it's part of his first look deal with Apple,

00:51:44   and I saw somebody on Twitter joke

00:51:48   that Apple is finally making its own Steve Jobs movie,

00:51:52   because of course Elizabeth Holmes sort of like fancied herself as a Steve Jobs-esque

00:51:59   figure but of course then it she's on trial now and it all went horribly wrong so.

00:52:05   Jennifer Lawrence good constant I think you're really well in this role I think I'm pretty

00:52:10   excited for this movie to be honest.

00:52:13   Jonah Hill will be playing Grateful Dead's Jerry Garcia in a Martin Scorsese biopic produced

00:52:19   by Apple Studios.

00:52:20   - There's a lot of names there.

00:52:23   - There's a lot going on in that one.

00:52:25   - Sierra Garcia, Martin Scorsese.

00:52:26   Well, Martin Scorsese understands that era of music.

00:52:29   We think of him as making like crime movies

00:52:32   and things like that, but he also did what,

00:52:35   The Last Waltz, which is considered the greatest rock movie

00:52:40   or one of the greatest rock movies ever.

00:52:43   - He did vinyl too, right?

00:52:44   The TV show?

00:52:45   - Yeah, so that's definitely, I think,

00:52:49   an aspect of Scorsese that doesn't get enough attention and that he may be, um, you know,

00:52:56   I'm not that interested in the Grateful Dead to be perfectly honest, but I think this is

00:53:01   an interesting project and people have opinions about Jonah Hill as Jerry Garcia, but like,

00:53:05   you know, people had opinions about Val Kilmer as Jim Morrison too and that turned out okay,

00:53:09   so we'll see.

00:53:10   - What do people not like about Jonah Hill as Jerry Garcia?

00:53:13   - I don't know, I think that there are a lot of Grateful Dead people who just think that

00:53:17   Jerry Garcia is sort of a saintly special figure and that Jonah Hill is just that guy

00:53:23   from those movies.

00:53:25   - Yeah, see, yeah, okay. I mean, Jonah Hill has put in some incredible performances. Like,

00:53:30   if people just think of him as the super bad guy, I, you know, I think...

00:53:34   - Oh, I agree.

00:53:35   - It's almost like thinking, "Oh, Adam McKay just makes stupid movies," right? Which he

00:53:39   now doesn't do.

00:53:40   - It's just the discourse. It's people getting upset and that's gonna happen, but, you know,

00:53:43   We'll see the final thing.

00:53:45   But I think Scorsese wanting to do a biopic

00:53:47   of Jerry Garcia is interesting.

00:53:50   That's an interesting move for him.

00:53:52   - And Invasion has been renewed for season two.

00:53:54   Have you watched any of that yet?

00:53:56   - Nope.

00:53:57   - No, neither have I.

00:53:58   I will.

00:53:59   I've been told it's good, but start slow.

00:54:00   So I kind of decided I would let it run

00:54:03   and then we can bench the whole thing.

00:54:05   - I have so many shows that I have not even cracked

00:54:08   because there's just so much going on right now.

00:54:11   - Yeah, I haven't seen the,

00:54:12   I've been the shrink next door yet either and I haven't really wanted to see that I just haven't gone around to it yet

00:54:18   I haven't either and I have I have so many

00:54:20   Homeworks for the incomparable to on top of that plus there's the stuff that I watch for for fun pleasure plus then I watch you get

00:54:27   back

00:54:27   Which is six hours. I haven't seen that yet, but I desperately want to watch it. That's that's that's something I've really been enjoying

00:54:34   The Dexter show the the Dexter season. Thank you. I don't know if you have watched Dexter

00:54:40   - I watched the first few seasons of Dexter, yes.

00:54:42   - Okay. - And then I got

00:54:43   to the bad one. - Yeah.

00:54:44   - And there's a good one after that,

00:54:45   but I got to the bad one and we gave up and that was that.

00:54:48   - Yeah, it's called Dexter, is it called New Blood,

00:54:51   I think it's called?

00:54:52   It's really good.

00:54:53   Like if you're a fan of the show, thorough recommendation.

00:54:57   It's like, it's so good, I want them to do more of it,

00:55:00   but I think they were just gonna do it as one season

00:55:02   and leave it at that, but like, it's really, really good.

00:55:06   I've really been enjoying that, so there you go.

00:55:09   Alright.

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00:56:41   To get the extra heat that a wood fire oven

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00:56:54   I haven't tried it yet, but I'm thinking about it.

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00:58:07   So the information have published a pretty large report about Apple, Tim Cook and their

00:58:13   relationship with the Chinese government.

00:58:16   And there's a bunch of stuff in this report that is basically collecting up a lot of things

00:58:20   that we've heard about before and expanding on them about Apple's relationship with China.

00:58:25   But the report hinges on a new piece of information that back in 2016, Cook signed an agreement

00:58:31   with officials from the Chinese government that promised Apple would invest more than

00:58:36   275 billion dollars into the country over a five year period through various means.

00:58:42   Now I want to give a couple of pieces of information from the report and then we can talk about

00:58:46   So Cook secretly visited China many times to make this deal.

00:58:50   Secretly is like, I think, you know, people could know he was in China,

00:58:55   but not knowing what it was about, right?

00:58:57   Was maybe going for visits, but was also meeting with officials.

00:59:01   And this was after there were threats made against some of Apple's services

00:59:05   continuing to be offered in the country.

00:59:07   The agreement was drafted between Apple and China's National Development and Reform Commission

00:59:12   to formally agree on a set of concessions Apple would make in return for some regulatory

00:59:16   exemptions. The agreement included pledges from Apple to improve technological advancements

00:59:22   in Chinese manufacturing, support training of high-quality Chinese talent to use more

00:59:26   Chinese components, sign deals with Chinese software firms, collaborate with Chinese universities,

00:59:31   directly invest in Chinese companies, and assist with Chinese government causes. Apple's

00:59:37   billion investment in the ride hailing company Didi was a part of this deal, which finally

00:59:42   gives us an answer for this perplexing deal that they did in 2016. And Apple has lobbied

00:59:48   with international governments on issues that could impact China.

00:59:51   Tim Cynova Great, great piece, really well reported.

00:59:55   Wayne Ma, if you don't have the information, you can, I think you can sign up, give them

00:59:58   your email address and they'll give you this as a sample and then they'll send you lots

01:00:02   of emails about how you should pay. I don't have a lot of money for the information, but

01:00:07   it's a really great report by Wayne Ma. Couldn't be more impressed with the detail of it. And

01:00:13   despite the, you know, the secret seems all titillating like a secret $275 billion deal,

01:00:19   I feel like this is a really good portrait of the level. I like to mention that, what

01:00:30   is it the New York Times story from during the Trump administration when they referred

01:00:37   to Tim Cook as an ambassador to China, right? Because he was so connected. This is about

01:00:46   diplomacy and about give and take. Any portrayal of this that you see that suggests that it's

01:00:57   all of the ways that Apple does the bidding of the Chinese government is,

01:01:03   is, has missed the point because this is much more complicated than that.

01:01:07   This is Apple navigating what it means to be in business in China as an,

01:01:15   as an American company.

01:01:17   And it's complicated, right?

01:01:21   And, and you could say, and I know some people say, well, the option Apple has

01:01:25   is to just walk away from the Chinese market.

01:01:27   And they could, although that would be really hard,

01:01:31   and they have so much manufacturing in China

01:01:35   that would then be in jeopardy,

01:01:39   and that could jeopardize their whole company.

01:01:41   But Apple has actually gone the other way

01:01:43   and integrated itself even more

01:01:46   in terms of sales and support

01:01:50   and all sorts of other things in the Chinese market.

01:01:52   They're not just using China as a manufacturing hub.

01:01:54   They're a, I think, the leading phone maker this year in China.

01:01:58   So what does that entail?

01:02:01   And the other thing you get out of the article

01:02:03   is very much that this is a two-way street.

01:02:05   Like, China benefits from having this international brand

01:02:12   be a player in China and work with the Chinese government

01:02:17   and follow its rules.

01:02:20   So you're never going to win an argument with somebody

01:02:22   who says the Chinese government is terrible.

01:02:23   You should never deal with them.

01:02:24   you should just not be involved in China at all.

01:02:26   I think that's unrealistic,

01:02:27   but if you've got a view like that, then okay.

01:02:30   I mean, obviously, that's obviously,

01:02:33   Apple has chosen not to do that.

01:02:34   But this gets into the details of like,

01:02:37   and it's nitty gritty stuff.

01:02:39   This is not a story of Apple being told

01:02:41   what to do and doing it.

01:02:42   This is a story of Apple being told what to do

01:02:45   and not doing it and feeling the pain

01:02:47   and doing something different

01:02:50   and Apple being told to do something else and saying,

01:02:53   well, this is not something we can do,

01:02:55   and working in other directions

01:02:58   in order to never have to do that thing.

01:03:01   And the one example that I thought was an amazing,

01:03:04   and this may change, especially after this article came out,

01:03:06   but an amazing detail that we hadn't heard before

01:03:09   is we know that Apple had to move,

01:03:11   it had to have its iCloud servers in China

01:03:13   in a data center owned by a Chinese company.

01:03:16   That was a law in China.

01:03:19   And if you're in, Apple has always said,

01:03:21   if you're in a country, you gotta follow their laws.

01:03:23   That's just how it is.

01:03:24   We've assumed that because they're in the data centers,

01:03:30   that that means that the Chinese government

01:03:33   or at least the Chinese corporation

01:03:35   that will do what the government says

01:03:37   has access to the encryption keys

01:03:40   for those iCloud accounts.

01:03:42   This report says that's not the case,

01:03:44   that Apple has managed to hold onto the encryption keys

01:03:48   of its customers in China.

01:03:49   It doesn't necessarily mean anything

01:03:51   because if the Chinese government says,

01:03:52   I need you to decrypt this thing,

01:03:54   then they probably would have to do it

01:03:57   because it's probably the law in China.

01:03:59   But I thought that was an interesting little detail

01:04:02   of Apple trying to negotiate like a level

01:04:06   that they're comfortable with

01:04:08   and that the Chinese government is comfortable with.

01:04:10   And it is a two-way street.

01:04:12   And there are sometimes functionaries

01:04:14   in certain parts of China that say,

01:04:15   we want you to do this thing.

01:04:16   And Apple's looking around like,

01:04:18   is this the Chinese government

01:04:20   or is it that guy who wants us to do this thing?

01:04:23   And then like working their political connections

01:04:25   in other parts of China or at a higher level

01:04:27   in order to get some of that stuff

01:04:30   kind of swept off the board or they look the other way.

01:04:33   Just fascinating detail.

01:04:35   This is a huge, huge complex,

01:04:38   I mean, this really is like international relations

01:04:41   essentially between this enormous corporate entity

01:04:43   and this enormous government entity.

01:04:46   And so I guess my takeaway from this, number one,

01:04:49   is anybody who simplifies the Apple-China relationship

01:04:53   is doing it a disservice,

01:04:54   'cause it's way more complicated.

01:04:55   And you really need to portray it

01:04:57   as being an incredibly complex series of concessions

01:05:01   and investments and give and take.

01:05:04   It's definitely not the case

01:05:06   that you can just roll on into China

01:05:08   and do whatever you want and pay your taxes

01:05:10   and be done with it.

01:05:11   The Chinese government has some very particular things

01:05:13   they want you to do,

01:05:14   which is why Apple is putting money

01:05:16   into various things in China.

01:05:18   but Apple has also gotten back.

01:05:21   Like the best example in the article is the US

01:05:27   and other countries in the West

01:05:31   have basically made Huawei persona non grata.

01:05:36   China's homegrown top ranked smartphone company.

01:05:41   - Which seemed to have been a move that was surely

01:05:43   like just to spite China.

01:05:45   Like there's no-

01:05:46   - Well, there's some feeling that,

01:05:48   - I mean, we-- - It's purely a feeling though,

01:05:50   like about Huawei.

01:05:51   - Yeah, I don't know the details.

01:05:52   There are accusations that Huawei was doing some bad stuff,

01:05:56   but-- - It's never been proven.

01:05:57   - It would have been very easy,

01:05:59   and this article points this out,

01:06:00   for China to retaliate by making things hard for Apple

01:06:05   in China, because, ha ha, take that,

01:06:08   Americans who ruined our phone maker,

01:06:10   we're gonna ruin yours, and it didn't happen.

01:06:13   And this article suggests that one of the reasons

01:06:15   it didn't happen is because Apple has made

01:06:17   a lot of effort to be connected to the powers that be in China, and it's an intertwined

01:06:23   relationship that is not, would not be the easy retaliatory move because it would hurt

01:06:29   China as much maybe as it would hurt the US, and so they didn't do it. And that's the value

01:06:36   that Apple gets out of that. So, I don't know, again, you've got to look through the lens

01:06:42   of how you feel about China, and that's going to be how you're going to feel. I take away

01:06:46   from this most of all that this is exactly or even more as complicated a relationship,

01:06:54   as difficult a relationship as you might expect. There's a lot of moving parts and a lot of

01:06:59   effort and a lot of people at Apple who have worked very hard to navigate all of the constraints

01:07:06   of this particular market. And you know, Apple does this with the European Union too, right?

01:07:11   And Apple does this with the US government too.

01:07:14   It's not just China.

01:07:16   China's challenges are unique,

01:07:19   but it's not like big companies like this don't need

01:07:21   to have all sorts of ways that they navigate

01:07:24   the rules required by them.

01:07:26   And or in Russia is a good example, right?

01:07:28   Where they navigated that you must install these apps

01:07:31   and got to a place where they got put up a screen

01:07:33   that says, here are some apps,

01:07:34   which is not what the law was initially supposed to be,

01:07:37   but somehow they made that happen.

01:07:39   So, you know, this is, they do it everywhere.

01:07:41   It's just that China is this enormous market

01:07:43   that Tim Cook has been focused on.

01:07:45   And yeah, can't say enough good things

01:07:47   about Wayne Ma's article,

01:07:48   because it really does paint a detailed picture

01:07:51   of just how complicated this whole thing is.

01:07:53   - Yeah, it's like I've been saying for a long time,

01:07:55   like Tim Cook is basically one of the most powerful people

01:08:00   on the planet, like more powerful

01:08:03   than world leaders of many countries.

01:08:05   - I mean, it depends on how you determine power,

01:08:09   But I mean, yeah, I think we do live in a world

01:08:11   where corporations are incredibly powerful,

01:08:13   and Apple is one of those corporations.

01:08:15   They have huge resources and huge influence.

01:08:18   And that's why I liked that New York Times story

01:08:20   saying that he's kind of the US ambassador,

01:08:22   especially at a point when the relations were very, very,

01:08:26   very negative, very bad

01:08:27   between the US administration and China.

01:08:31   And this is, yeah, I mean,

01:08:34   how is this not the portrayal of a head of state, essentially?

01:08:38   - Well, he acts like one.

01:08:40   I mean, in a way that I think makes sense.

01:08:42   But like, you know, like every possible holiday

01:08:46   around the planet, right?

01:08:48   Like public holiday in every culture around the globe,

01:08:52   Tim Cook will wish people, you know, like--

01:08:55   - He's got a tweet for it.

01:08:56   - Happy whatever on that day, you know?

01:08:58   Like, in a way that the CEO of a company

01:09:02   doesn't need to do, right?

01:09:04   Like there is not, I don't believe, an expectation

01:09:07   on the CEO of a public company to wish, you know,

01:09:11   like happy whatever on whatever day it might be, right?

01:09:15   But he does it or it's done for him.

01:09:18   And in a way, it feels interesting.

01:09:20   I'll tell you, I came away from this piece,

01:09:23   feeling a little uncomfortable for one reason, right?

01:09:26   So, you know, I've said this so many times on this show

01:09:29   that people need to understand that Apple

01:09:33   is the biggest company in the world

01:09:35   and does things that the biggest company in the world will do,

01:09:40   which is this kind of stuff, right?

01:09:42   And I think people like to believe

01:09:44   that Apple doesn't do these kinds of things

01:09:47   because they love Apple

01:09:49   and think that Apple is above everything, you know?

01:09:51   Like is above big company stuff.

01:09:54   But the idea of a CEO of a company

01:09:57   doing some kind of secret backdoor deal with a government

01:10:00   makes complete sense in my mind.

01:10:02   The thing that I don't like about this is

01:10:05   Apple have never said anything about this,

01:10:07   and if it was the US, they wouldn't stop talking about it.

01:10:10   If they did this deal with the US government,

01:10:14   there would be 25 PR posts talking about it,

01:10:18   they'd have websites created to it,

01:10:20   but because it's China, they don't say it,

01:10:23   and that annoys me.

01:10:24   - I guess what I would say to that is that

01:10:26   I think some of the stuff they do say,

01:10:28   they say it in China,

01:10:29   like that there are events in China and they appear

01:10:31   and it gets on the news in China

01:10:33   and it's part of the feel-good message

01:10:37   to whatever country you're in, I guess.

01:10:39   - Yeah, possibly, but Apple tell the whole world

01:10:41   about their US stuff.

01:10:42   - Yeah, that's true.

01:10:43   That's not how China works. (laughs)

01:10:44   - I know, but why not say,

01:10:49   we have invested $275 billion into the Chinese economy?

01:10:53   Why not say that?

01:10:55   But they won't, and I know why they won't,

01:10:57   and that's what annoys me about it.

01:10:58   - Yeah. - You know?

01:11:00   And again, I think there are a lot of legitimate reasons

01:11:04   to dislike the Chinese government

01:11:09   and the Chinese Communist Party.

01:11:12   I get it, I totally get it.

01:11:14   At the same time, it's one thing to have

01:11:17   your personal beliefs, and it's another thing

01:11:21   when you're the person in charge

01:11:23   of a giant profit-making corporation.

01:11:25   And this is the path that Tim Cook has decided to walk.

01:11:28   I think that in some ways he's been validated in his approach because there was a time when

01:11:38   the consensus was you put companies from the West into China and it changes China.

01:11:47   And the truth is it did change China in one way, which is Chinese society is more egalitarian

01:11:55   than it used to be.

01:11:57   a much larger middle class than there used to be. And they have a form of capitalism

01:12:05   and private property and things that a traditional communist country would not have, right? And

01:12:11   they become an economic engine. But there was this other fantasy that the existence

01:12:15   of countries from the West in China was going to make it a free country politically, and

01:12:22   hasn't happened. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's become less so, and more authoritarian

01:12:30   over time recently. And now they have a leader who's basically a president for life, if he

01:12:34   wants to be. So the question then is, well, do you do business there or not? And you can

01:12:42   walk away. I think Apple's argument would be, what does walking away get anybody? And

01:12:49   Apple, Apple feels like it can be, it's beneficial for Apple as a company and

01:12:55   it's also beneficial for the people in China and that they think it's, you might

01:13:00   as well be in the, in the game. If you're gonna be in the game, be in every

01:13:04   country and, and participate in how they, in how they do business. I totally see

01:13:11   the other argument which is, you can't, you can't and you got to walk away. I

01:13:16   I think the truth is Apple was so entwined with China in terms of manufacturing that

01:13:23   was going to be really hard to walk away.

01:13:26   And so Tim Cook was like, well, we're going to do the other one then we're going to make

01:13:29   close ties so they can't walk away from us and we can't walk away from them.

01:13:36   And also just going to say it, Tim Cook is the CEO of a big profit seeking company, and

01:13:42   there's a lot of money to be made in China and that's one of his decisions and you can

01:13:45   like that or dislike that, but I think that that is clearly part of it too. And so, you

01:13:48   know, this is not just Apple too, right? Like there's a lot of pressure right now on the

01:13:51   International Olympic Committee, which is about to have the Winter Olympics in China.

01:13:56   The women's tennis tour just canceled all their events in China because one of their

01:14:00   tennis players made a sexual assault allegation against a former high-ranking part of the

01:14:06   Chinese government, and then she basically disappeared. And then when she reappeared,

01:14:10   It was in staged videos that said, "I'm fine,"

01:14:12   but nobody believes that she's actually fine.

01:14:15   And so the one group has basically said,

01:14:17   "We're out of China

01:14:18   because we can't guarantee the safety of our members."

01:14:21   And yet you look at the IOC, and the IOC said,

01:14:24   "Did you see that video where she said she was fine?

01:14:27   Everything's great because they're about to do an event

01:14:29   in China, and they're tightly tied to China."

01:14:32   It's complicated, and everybody's going

01:14:34   to make different decisions.

01:14:35   And I think if you want to say Apple is wrong

01:14:38   to play ball with China in any way,

01:14:40   I think that's a perfectly valid opinion.

01:14:41   I think that what's great about this article

01:14:43   is you can see that you can see all the consequences

01:14:47   of them playing ball in China for good and for ill.

01:14:50   It lays it all out.

01:14:52   It's hard and complicated.

01:14:53   And it's a path that Tim Cook has decided to walk.

01:14:55   And as we've discussed several times on this podcast,

01:14:58   at this point, it would be impossible

01:15:02   for them to unwind this relationship.

01:15:04   It really would.

01:15:06   Because at this point, Apple's so much more intertwined

01:15:08   that if they were to walk away,

01:15:11   I think there would be even more retaliation against Apple.

01:15:13   And as we've said, Apple kind of doesn't have a plan B

01:15:17   for its entire manufacturing process.

01:15:21   And maybe it's trying to build one in the background,

01:15:23   but for right now, Apple can't get out of China.

01:15:26   It just can't because it makes its products in China

01:15:29   and it's just too tightly tied.

01:15:31   And that's, I would call that a liability.

01:15:34   I would say that you always wanna have,

01:15:36   you don't wanna have some piece of the puzzle.

01:15:37   it's the Steve Jobs thing, right?

01:15:39   Like if it's something important,

01:15:40   you shouldn't just have to rely on someone else for it.

01:15:42   Well, Apple is kind of relying on it on China

01:15:45   for this major part of their business.

01:15:47   And that may be one of the motivating factors

01:15:50   in them doing all of this to connect with China

01:15:54   is it makes it almost impossible for China to kick Apple out.

01:15:59   And that's good because Apple has no plan B

01:16:03   for a lot of what it manufactures.

01:16:05   - And it's not just the manufacturing

01:16:07   because they wanna sell them there too

01:16:09   because it's the biggest market.

01:16:11   - Yeah, they wanna make money,

01:16:12   but I would say that there are two things going on here.

01:16:14   There's, do you participate in the market?

01:16:16   And there's, are you using China to make your stuff?

01:16:19   And if you're just using China to make your stuff

01:16:22   and not participating in the market,

01:16:23   I feel like you're more open to retaliation.

01:16:26   You don't have those tight ties.

01:16:28   So it would be easier for China

01:16:30   to threaten Apple's supply chain.

01:16:33   And I think that's the choice that Tim Cook made,

01:16:35   is no, we're gonna make tighter ties

01:16:36   and we're gonna get into that huge market

01:16:38   and it's gonna make us money,

01:16:39   but it's also gonna tie us to China.

01:16:41   The problem is that their manufacturing base

01:16:43   still is tied to China.

01:16:45   And as we saw during some of the days in COVID,

01:16:48   like when the Chinese factories shut down,

01:16:50   it's like, well, Apple doesn't have a plan B for this.

01:16:52   So maybe they wanna work on that in the background

01:16:55   over the next decade, we'll see.

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01:18:31   Let's finish up with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:18:34   - Did you like Dan's lasers, by the way?

01:18:38   - I did like Dan's lasers, actually.

01:18:39   - He did some lasers, it was fun.

01:18:41   - They were different, but they were good.

01:18:42   - They were, they were space spy lasers,

01:18:44   which is the best kind, probably.

01:18:47   Tim asks, "In reviewing e-readers, do you go into great detail about the advantages

01:18:52   of buttons to turn the page versus swiping and tapping on the screens?

01:18:56   What are your thoughts on scrolling instead of page turning?"

01:19:00   Well, on e-ink, scrolling is not an option.

01:19:04   I had that Android-based e-ink reader, the Bux Nova Air, that I tried, and since it's

01:19:12   running Android apps, you could scroll and it's E-ink is just not, no, it's a bad interface

01:19:19   for scrolling. It gets, it's super weird. Like it's really built for page turns. In

01:19:23   general, like if I'm reading on a, on a phone, I prefer page turns when I'm reading a book

01:19:28   to swiping and I don't know, cause I swipe through, I'm scrolling through, um, Twitter

01:19:35   and stuff like that. And I'm used to that scrolling through timelines. But, uh, the

01:19:40   truth is even there I mostly scroll up a page or thereabouts and then read down.

01:19:45   For reading, like, reading a novel where I know that I'm literally going on

01:19:50   forever and I'm just keeping on scrolling, like, I don't want to do that. I

01:19:54   would much rather be at rest and then read the whole page and then tap

01:19:58   or swipe to see the next page. That's just, I prefer that as a way to read

01:20:03   especially long things versus kind of internally scrolling. I have no opinion.

01:20:08   - No. - Okay, that's fine.

01:20:11   - Mark asks, "How many Christmas cards

01:20:13   you usually send out?"

01:20:14   - Oh, we are ordering, we just did this yesterday,

01:20:18   we are ordering like 140 or something like that.

01:20:21   - Wow.

01:20:22   - We have a spreadsheet with everybody's addresses in it

01:20:25   and then we send those out.

01:20:28   So yeah, it's about 140 I think that we are ordering.

01:20:32   - So we do like 30 or 40.

01:20:34   - Okay.

01:20:35   And we only do this because we have so many American friends.

01:20:39   Like, the idea of sending Christmas cards to everyone you know,

01:20:45   not so much of a thing in the UK.

01:20:48   Maybe to like family, but outside of that,

01:20:53   it doesn't really happen.

01:20:54   Like, you know, like, if I wouldn't send

01:20:59   and had never sent a Christmas card to any of my friends

01:21:02   and their families before I started getting on the Christmas card lists of American friends.

01:21:08   Then we start sending them out to everyone. And now some of my UK based family friends

01:21:15   or like friends and like my UK based friends get cards. So like I will send a card to James

01:21:21   Thompson and Saskia this year like so I do every year. Well this is the other thing I

01:21:26   wanted to get to in a second but only because James is used to getting them from Americans

01:21:31   and therefore has also sent, right?

01:21:33   So now the people, like the families living in the UK

01:21:36   that also have American friends also get cards

01:21:39   because we're all sending them out anyway.

01:21:41   - I have our spreadsheet here, 135 entries, 134,

01:21:44   'cause there's a hetero, 134 entries.

01:21:46   - That is a big list.

01:21:48   So what I wanted to say and ask a secondary question of you

01:21:51   and maybe the upgradients, we're really late this year

01:21:54   because we've been traveling, because in other years,

01:21:56   what we have done is we've made them,

01:21:59   Academia has made a card and we get the card made.

01:22:01   We've used Moo a bunch of times in the UK to do that.

01:22:04   And then we write the cards and send them.

01:22:07   This year, we do not have the time to do that.

01:22:09   And I know that some people, some of my friends,

01:22:12   they use like a service to make the card

01:22:16   and they don't personalize the card

01:22:17   and they just send them to a bunch of people.

01:22:20   So I wanna know if you have a recommendation

01:22:23   for a service like that

01:22:25   because we don't have the time otherwise.

01:22:26   - Well, first off, I'm gonna extol the virtues

01:22:29   of the Happy New Year card.

01:22:30   - We're going with a Happy New Year card this year.

01:22:33   Yeah, that's what we're gonna do.

01:22:34   Like happy holidays and a happy new year.

01:22:36   That's what we're going with.

01:22:37   - Yeah, we're just going straight to Happy New Year.

01:22:38   And then in the US, I actually use paper culture,

01:22:42   which does ship internationally,

01:22:43   and you can upload a context file

01:22:46   and they will mail it out.

01:22:49   And so you can make a card with a message.

01:22:55   You could even potentially,

01:22:56   depending on whether they let you put an image,

01:22:58   you could even like sign it, but not personalize it.

01:23:02   I think we are gonna do a postcard.

01:23:04   So it's gonna have a picture on the front

01:23:05   and on the back, it's gonna have some text

01:23:07   saying what we did this year and happy new year.

01:23:10   And you can use their surface,

01:23:15   paper culture anyway,

01:23:16   use their service to have them mail it out,

01:23:19   or you can just have them mail you a box

01:23:21   and then you can get the stamps.

01:23:22   But for your contacts in the US,

01:23:25   at the very least, that might be a way to do it

01:23:27   because then they're just mailing in the US from the US

01:23:29   and you never have to deal with it.

01:23:31   So that's the one that I use.

01:23:32   I'm sure there are lots of them out there,

01:23:34   but I've been pretty happy with the quality

01:23:36   and they have a bunch of templates that are pre-made

01:23:37   so you can find one that you like.

01:23:38   - Do they send international too though?

01:23:40   - They will, from the US, yes.

01:23:42   - Oh, amazing, yeah, I mean, that's what we'll do.

01:23:44   - Yeah, I've done that.

01:23:45   - We would send international from the UK,

01:23:47   so if anything, this would be cheaper for us.

01:23:50   - I guess I'm saying that you might wanna,

01:23:52   depending on your balance,

01:23:53   you might wanna make a paper culture order to the US

01:23:56   and then find a place in the UK

01:23:58   and do a different order in the UK.

01:23:59   But that's up to you.

01:24:02   But yes, 'cause it might be a little funny

01:24:04   for international shipping for your card

01:24:06   to James in Saskia.

01:24:08   - We'll find out. - But that's up to you.

01:24:09   But anyway, I use that and it's good.

01:24:11   This year we're not having them mail it.

01:24:13   We are gonna mail those ourselves.

01:24:15   So we've saved a step, I guess,

01:24:18   or we've made an extra step for ourselves.

01:24:20   They'll wash us here and then we'll mail them out, yeah.

01:24:22   - You've saved them a step.

01:24:23   - I've saved them a step.

01:24:25   It is, I mean, it's cheaper if you mail it yourself,

01:24:27   but then you've got to mail it yourself.

01:24:28   So that's, it means that you can sign them, right?

01:24:32   But some years we have not done that.

01:24:33   Some years we've very much like, no, no, just mail them out.

01:24:36   We don't want to get it back.

01:24:37   - Ryan asks, Jason, when you do buy a, like, when, sorry,

01:24:42   when do you buy a book and when do you check out a book

01:24:45   from the library?

01:24:46   What's the difference for you?

01:24:48   - So many book questions after last week.

01:24:51   - You spoke about books for a while.

01:24:52   - My strategy these days,

01:24:53   since I've really gotten into using the Libby app

01:24:56   and OverDrive to check out books from my library,

01:24:58   is when I see a book I want,

01:25:00   I check and see if it's at the library.

01:25:02   And if it's at the library and it's not a book

01:25:04   that I need to read right this very minute,

01:25:06   I just put it on my library holds list

01:25:08   and it will come up and be part of the delightful surprise

01:25:12   about, "Oh, look, a book is available."

01:25:15   And, you know, it's fun to have the random books

01:25:20   come off the library stack.

01:25:22   If it's a book that is not available at the library

01:25:24   or as an ebook, or I want it and I want it now, I'll buy it.

01:25:29   So I don't have a problem buying eBooks,

01:25:32   but I am trying to be a little more disciplined of saying,

01:25:34   do I need to buy this or is this at the library?

01:25:36   And if it's at the library,

01:25:37   I'll just check it out from the library.

01:25:39   - That makes perfect sense.

01:25:41   Ryan asks, can focus modes change what is in your dock?

01:25:45   Like can it change,

01:25:46   like it can change what home screen is active?

01:25:49   - No, it cannot. - Nope.

01:25:50   - No, it cannot.

01:25:51   'Cause all it's doing-- - Seems like a nice feature,

01:25:53   right, seems like that would be a good feature.

01:25:55   - Yeah, maybe.

01:25:57   I mean, yes, it would be.

01:25:58   But all it's doing is, it's not like changing anything

01:26:01   about the phone, right?

01:26:03   Like it's just changing what home screen is visible

01:26:06   in the way that like if you swipe between home screens,

01:26:08   it doesn't change what's in your dock

01:26:10   because the dock is fixed, right?

01:26:12   - I guess what I would say is that though,

01:26:14   that this is maybe what the Mac equivalent could be

01:26:18   of a focus mode change is like, first off,

01:26:22   the Mac just needs some way to automate

01:26:24   based on focus mode change, right?

01:26:26   Like in the system, it'd be nice if the system included

01:26:29   some things that you could do just like it does on iOS

01:26:31   and it doesn't do that.

01:26:32   And maybe that would be the doc, what's in the doc,

01:26:36   or maybe so you have different docs for different statuses,

01:26:39   or maybe it would show or hide the doc,

01:26:41   or maybe it would just be,

01:26:43   you can run a script or a shortcut.

01:26:46   - Oh, I see.

01:26:46   - You're saying like on the Mac,

01:26:48   the dock is like the home screen.

01:26:51   - Right?

01:26:51   I mean, it sort of is.

01:26:52   - Interesting.

01:26:53   - Unless you're using like launchpad or something.

01:26:55   (laughs)

01:26:57   Anyway, yeah, that was my thought was that the dock

01:26:59   could be sort of what the home screen is on iOS.

01:27:03   I don't know if it is.

01:27:04   I don't know if people would actually want that or not.

01:27:07   And maybe Apple looked at that and said,

01:27:09   "No, that's not something we wanna do."

01:27:10   But my greater frustration is that there's no way

01:27:14   to do big changes like that when focus modes change

01:27:17   on the Mac and that's a mistake.

01:27:19   They need to fix that.

01:27:21   - Yeah, that'd be interesting.

01:27:22   But yes, Ryan, you cannot change what is in the dock

01:27:25   on your iOS device via a focus mode change.

01:27:28   - Nope.

01:27:29   - It's just what's on the home screens.

01:27:31   Greg wants to know, final question today,

01:27:33   why does Jason have a different version

01:27:35   of the theme song than Myke does?

01:27:36   - Ha, well, Greg, first off, thanks for noticing.

01:27:41   Second, Greg is not a member, an Upgrade Plus member,

01:27:46   because the upgrade version for members

01:27:51   had the regular theme song.

01:27:53   I think that's how I did it.

01:27:54   - No. - So I have fun.

01:27:56   That was the opposite.

01:27:57   - You had the whole synth version in Upgrade Plus.

01:28:02   - Oh, okay, so Greg is a member.

01:28:04   Well then thank you for your support, Greg.

01:28:05   You got the bonus and regular listeners did not.

01:28:09   - So I did, I have fun when I added upgrade

01:28:13   'cause it happens so rarely.

01:28:14   And although there is a version of the theme song file

01:28:16   that Myke uses every week,

01:28:18   we also have our complete version of the theme song

01:28:20   and we have the first version of the theme song

01:28:23   that Chris Breen did for us,

01:28:24   which had an electric guitar sound.

01:28:27   And I asked for it to be replaced

01:28:29   with a synthesizer sound instead,

01:28:33   because I thought it was more beepy boopy,

01:28:37   80s-y kind of sound.

01:28:39   But we have both.

01:28:40   And so I often use the other one

01:28:43   because I think it's fun that there's this variation

01:28:45   that never gets played and that I can throw it in there.

01:28:47   Editing last week's show was interesting

01:28:50   'cause it was, you know,

01:28:51   we now do two versions of the show.

01:28:53   And so I actually called Myke at some point

01:28:55   or I sent a Slack message to Myke

01:28:56   who was getting massaged at the time

01:28:57   and so that did not answer my question.

01:28:59   (laughing)

01:29:01   You did not receive the bat signal from your location

01:29:05   being relaxed in Hawaii.

01:29:07   So I had to just deal with this myself.

01:29:10   So basically what I did is I created the mega version,

01:29:12   turns out this is what you do,

01:29:13   a mega version of the show that has all the ads

01:29:15   and all the extras and save that.

01:29:18   And then I made two versions from there

01:29:19   and delete the ads and keep the extras in one version.

01:29:22   - So what I do in Logic, so I, yeah,

01:29:24   I do the whole thing, right?

01:29:25   Ads with the, all of the plus content,

01:29:29   all chaptered, right?

01:29:30   The whole thing.

01:29:31   Then I go to File, Save Copy As,

01:29:35   or like you can duplicate ads or something like that,

01:29:37   there is in Logic, there is an option to like create,

01:29:39   take this, but give it a different name.

01:29:41   - Yes.

01:29:42   - And so I do that and then I call that one plus,

01:29:44   then I remove the plus content

01:29:47   from what is the status show, bounce that out.

01:29:49   Then I go to the one called plus,

01:29:50   remove the ads, bring it all together.

01:29:52   So probably similar to what you did.

01:29:54   - Yeah, so what I did is I used the electric guitar version

01:29:56   in the plus version, which I built first.

01:29:59   And then I came over to the regular version

01:30:02   and I deleted all the intro stuff.

01:30:04   and I got to the music and I thought,

01:30:06   I'm just gonna use the regular intro here.

01:30:07   For why? I don't know.

01:30:08   I just decided maybe I deleted the electric guitar

01:30:12   and I thought, well, okay, I gotta put it back.

01:30:13   I'll just use it.

01:30:15   I don't always ape the exact timing of how you do it.

01:30:19   And in fact, in both versions,

01:30:21   the timing is a little bit different.

01:30:24   - I was disappointed in where you started.

01:30:25   - It's funny 'cause I actually know how you do it.

01:30:30   I just didn't wanna do it this time.

01:30:32   - And then you also didn't bring the volume of the music

01:30:34   down to a level that I would bring it down to.

01:30:36   - Yeah. - When I'm talking.

01:30:38   We all have our own ways.

01:30:39   - The problem with that, the intro that you've got

01:30:41   is you've got an intro that like fades and all that,

01:30:43   but it doesn't fade enough.

01:30:44   So you still have to manually fade it.

01:30:46   It's, hmm, anyway.

01:30:48   - Oh yeah, I have mine all manually faded.

01:30:50   Like, yeah. - Yeah, right, see?

01:30:52   So the answer is I could,

01:30:56   and there are episodes that I've edited

01:30:58   where I, including sometimes where Myke is on the episode,

01:31:01   but he can't edit it for some reason.

01:31:03   And I usually make those identical to the way Myke does it.

01:31:08   It's just that I kind of like it

01:31:11   when it's different and weird.

01:31:12   And that was an episode with Dan instead of me

01:31:15   and me instead of Myke.

01:31:17   And so it was from the moment we started,

01:31:19   it's clearly not the usual upgrade.

01:31:22   And so at that point I feel like,

01:31:23   okay, well then I'm not gonna even try

01:31:25   to make it sound exactly like upgrade because it's not,

01:31:27   it's a weird episode of upgrade.

01:31:29   - It's a nice upgrade.

01:31:30   That is the version of why that theme song changes

01:31:34   and it's a little bit different

01:31:36   just because I don't know, it's fun.

01:31:37   So when something like that is going on,

01:31:40   you know you're in for something special.

01:31:43   That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

01:31:45   - If you'd like to send in a question

01:31:47   for us to answer on the show next week,

01:31:49   send out a toot with the hashtag #AskUpgrade

01:31:51   or question mark #AskUpgrade.

01:31:52   And remember we are looking

01:31:54   for extra holiday themed questions for next week's episode.

01:31:58   So whatever it might be, holiday related,

01:32:00   send it in and we will answer it. Don't forget to go to upgradees.vote to get your vote in

01:32:06   for the upgradees. And don't forget about giving the gift of Relay. If you or someone

01:32:12   you know wants to join Relay FM for the next year, now is a great time to do so. Because

01:32:16   until December 17th, just a few more days, all of our annual plans are 22% off for new

01:32:21   subscribers. Go to giverelay.com to learn more and set up your gift. Thank you to everybody

01:32:26   that does sign up normally or has signed up. So yeah, you should go there. But if you want

01:32:30   to join monthly, you can go to get upgrade plus dot com and do that. Let me tell you

01:32:35   about one more show here on relay FM before we leave and that is Automators. If you like

01:32:38   this show, there's a good chance you'll have Automators because if you want to make your

01:32:41   devices do more for you, you can join David Sparks and Rosemary Orchard at relay.fm/automators

01:32:47   or search for Automators wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening to this

01:32:51   week's episode of Upgrade and we'll be back next time. Thank you to Setapp, Ooni and DoorDash

01:32:57   for their support of this show. Until next week, say goodbye just in snow. Goodbye my Pearly.