380: Hey Self, Don't Do It!


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 380. Today's show is brought to you by Amazon Music,

00:00:15   Capital One, and Hunter Douglas. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi,

00:00:20   Jason Snell. What's in your wallet, Myke? We'll find out later on in the episode. You just wanted

00:00:26   to say it, but I get to say it later on. I did want to say it, and Upgrade Plus people won't hear

00:00:30   your delight in being able to say it, so I thought I'd bring it up to Capital One's. You get to be

00:00:36   Samuel L. Jackson for a minute. It's very exciting. I have a #SnellTalk question for you. It comes

00:00:40   from Zach and Zach wants to know, this is follow-up from last week. So last week's Snell Talk question,

00:00:45   right, was how long do you give it before you get rid of a book? You know, if you're not enjoying it,

00:00:50   Zach wants to know how long do you give a TV show before you'll bail on it? It really depends. This

00:00:55   is a great question, but I don't have a hard and fast answer here. I am guided in part by,

00:01:00   like, reviews, whether it's from TV critics or from friends. Sometimes, like, I'm not a fan of

00:01:09   the idea that you have to wait until episode five until it really gets good, because you're like,

00:01:13   I don't want to sit through four episodes where it's not good just to get to where the good part

00:01:17   is. Like, I don't want to do that. And yet, if I get that impression from people, like, this is

00:01:23   really good. You need to, you just need to kind of, like, give it, be patient a little bit. I'm

00:01:27   willing to give something a little more slack. I would say, traditionally, it's all about the

00:01:34   second episode. I used to talk about this on TV Talk Machine podcast all the time, that, like,

00:01:39   I always think that episode two of a show is the most important episode of a show, because the

00:01:43   first episode is, you may decide it's not for you right away. But it's, it's usually, I mean,

00:01:50   this is less true now than it used to be, but it used to be the pilot episode. So it was sort of

00:01:54   like setting the premise of what the show was going to be, which meant that the first episode

00:01:57   wasn't really representative of what the show was going to be because they needed to set up.

00:02:01   Because they could also be like these self-contained things, right? Like,

00:02:05   they just go out and that's it. I mean, in some instances, because they may never go.

00:02:09   Well, they only shoot the one and then they wait, traditionally, they only shoot the one episode and

00:02:13   then they wait like six months to get approval to go shoot more and then they have to shoot,

00:02:17   you know, the rest of the season. And so episode one isn't always representative. So if I really

00:02:24   get turned off by a first episode, and modern shows are less like this, like I said, but if

00:02:29   I'm really turned off by the first episode, I will bail. But I feel like the second episode is often

00:02:35   the crucible for a TV show, because if the second episode where they've gotten a chance to get the

00:02:41   band back together, if it's a traditional pilot, then you'll know whether it's for you or not in a

00:02:48   lot of cases. When, back in the day when I had a DVR, I thought the most telling thing was I would

00:02:57   always set the shows to record the whole show when I set, when a new show was coming on that I was

00:03:01   interested in. Because the last thing you want to do is not get around to episode one to decide if

00:03:05   you like it or not. And then episode two airs. And so now if you watch episode one, you can't watch

00:03:10   episode two because it already aired back in the day. But the telling thing is when you abandon the

00:03:17   show and the episodes start to pile up. And that doesn't mean you actually decided to dump that

00:03:21   show, but you haven't gone further. And I guess the equivalent today would be you end up in a

00:03:26   situation where you are an episode or two into a show. And it may even be in the like upcoming in

00:03:33   the TV app. And it just gets further to the right and further to the right because you're not

00:03:38   motivated to go back to it. And that, so a lot of TV shows self-cancel, Zach is what I'm saying,

00:03:46   is a lot of stuff it really just comes down to there's so much out there. And if I don't ever

00:03:51   think I'm in the mood for that show, then there goes that show. It's gone. But there's usually a

00:03:57   moment where you either buy in or get out. And that's definitely happened to me on some shows

00:04:03   where sometimes it's just a lack of enthusiasm, but other times it is literally like, oh no,

00:04:07   I just did that with what was it called Home Before Dark, Back Before Dark, that show about

00:04:14   the little girl who solves crimes on Apple TV Plus. And I didn't like the first episode,

00:04:18   but I watched the second episode and the second episode made me angry. And I was like, oh,

00:04:21   I can't watch this show anymore. I need to stop watching this show. So you got to listen to the

00:04:26   universe when it tells you nobody's giving you points for watching something you don't like.

00:04:31   You got to get out of there. If you'd like to send in a hashtag Snow Talk question, you can do so by

00:04:36   sending out a tweet with the hashtag Snow Talk or using question marks Snow Talk in the Real AFM

00:04:40   members Discord. I should just note before we continue, because people will always ask,

00:04:44   Jason is not recording at home today. I'm not. I'm in the desert location. So yes, using a MacBook

00:04:53   Pro, which we'll talk about in a minute, but I am not at home today. So yes, thank you for your

00:04:57   concern. You wrote a really great post and put together some wonderful charts and six colors in

00:05:02   the last week kind of in review of Apple completing their fiscal year. We spoke about Apple

00:05:11   Earnest last week, but kind of looking at the last how many years did you look at over this period?

00:05:16   Like the last 10, 11?

00:05:17   Oh, I've got data back to like 1999 for some stuff.

00:05:20   Okay. So 20 something years in some cases.

00:05:22   And then in terms of Apple's product lines since the, you know, the Mac since the 90s and the

00:05:29   iPhone since basically right after it started and likewise for the iPad.

00:05:32   So there's some really like kind of fascinating stuff in here. I recommend people go look at the

00:05:36   entire, look at all the charts and read the whole article. But there are a couple of things that

00:05:40   were just wild to me. So one of them is, you know, like we look at quarter to quarter and we

00:05:45   compare quarter to quarter, right? But when you look at the entire year encapsulated, 2021 was

00:05:52   unbelievable for Apple in terms of revenue. It was like, you know, up, down, up, down a little bit

00:05:58   here and there, kind of like in the 200 range since 2014, like 200 to 300, a billion, right?

00:06:05   Billion. Yes. Uh, in the year. And then this year it was just shot up to 366. I think looking at

00:06:10   this chart, it's the largest year over year revenue jump. Uh, like from a full year to full year

00:06:17   that Apple's ever had. It looks like in terms of, in terms of dollars. Yes. In terms of percent,

00:06:22   no, because the rocket ship really did take off between a 2000 like 2010, 2011, 2012.

00:06:29   Because like they went from like 65 to 108, right?

00:06:32   Yeah. 2009 Apple made $43 billion in 2012 it made $157 billion. So like in a very short amount of

00:06:40   time, it shot up really fast. Um, and, uh, there was another big bump in 2015, but, uh, in terms

00:06:49   of pure numbers and like you look at the chart and it's sort of like, Apple's just very slowly going

00:06:52   up and then it goes up real fast. Uh, and then it goes this last year, it goes up way faster and

00:06:59   uh, that's probably not, uh, that rate of growth is not going to sustain, but if, if it's like

00:07:07   previous stuff with Apple, it's not as likely to come back to earth as it is to then sort of plateau

00:07:15   at that new high level, right? Where it's, it's gone from being 200 something. So the last six

00:07:22   years was 200 something billion dollars in revenue. And now we had a $366 billion year. Well, I think

00:07:29   it's, it would not be surprising at all if the next five years were all sort of 300 something

00:07:35   billion in revenue. Yeah. But the expectation looking at the data that you have is that it

00:07:39   will probably be smaller in 2022, you know, maybe down to 320, 330. We don't know. I mean, 300

00:07:47   something, right? It's not necessarily all the way up, but, uh, but yeah, there's some feeling that

00:07:51   probably some future sales got pulled into fiscal 21. Um, but then again, there was feeling that

00:07:57   future sales got pulled into fiscal 22 and yet 21 is that much better. So, uh, but yeah, it's

00:08:02   possible that if you put COVID and Apple Silicon together, you've got a, and throw in a, uh, redesign

00:08:09   physical redesign of, of hardware for the iPhone, uh, that you may have a pretty remarkable year.

00:08:16   And that the next few years are going to be lower because so many products that might have been

00:08:23   deferred and purchased in 22 or 23 or 24, all got pulled back into 21 for one reason or another.

00:08:31   But your iPhone chart shows, you know, the iPhone chart shows the iPhone six, the iPhone 10 and the

00:08:36   iPhone 12, all big redesigns. You see it, you see, you can see, we talk about seasonality and we talk

00:08:42   about like the holiday quarter, but here on an annual scale, you can see this sort of iPhone

00:08:47   seasonality, which is the redesign year. And you see the spikes, there's 2015 spikes, 2018 spikes

00:08:54   and 2021 spikes. And that's all hardware redesigns of the iPhone driving a new wave of iPhone sales.

00:09:01   And, and, and then the level stays high, but you can see that spike that is the year that they

00:09:08   changed the look of the iPhone. Yep. And then there's a Mac chart and I want you to, I want

00:09:13   to see if I can get your help on this because from 97 to 2006, it's kind of in the three to

00:09:18   five billion dollars a year range. Then from 2007 up to 2011, it just steadily increases to the 20

00:09:26   something range. Is this the iPhone that did this for the Mac? I think it's a couple of different

00:09:35   things, right? So it's, um, it's the iPod halo effect, which starts in the early two thousands

00:09:44   and then continues to accelerate. So you've got the, uh, people who've never bought an Apple

00:09:49   product before, but they buy an iPod and they really like it. And Apple retail is out there too.

00:09:54   And so people are able to see Apple products for the first time, maybe in their lives, because they

00:09:59   just haven't been around Macs before. Um, because the Macs are so, uh, such a niche computer product

00:10:05   at this point. And they have an affinity for the Apple brand now, cause they like their iPod and

00:10:09   the Apple store is right there. And they've heard that, you know, Oh, Apple also makes a computer

00:10:13   and maybe they knew it. Um, also it's the web is more, um, more relevant at this point. So

00:10:19   fewer people say I can't buy a Mac because of PC heart PC software that I need. Um, the Intel

00:10:27   transition then happens in 2005, 2006, which means there is a whole group of people who are Mac

00:10:33   hesitant because what if I need this windows app that I occasionally use? And so a whole bunch of

00:10:39   people buy Macs in that era, along with a copy of VMware or parallels and a windows XP virtual

00:10:48   machine, which was a very popular thing to do in that era. My uncle did that. My uncle had always

00:10:53   used a PC and he bought a Mac and we set them up with, um, with parallels and windows for the one

00:10:59   app that he used on. And you know what? He never used it and, uh, it became irrelevant, but it got

00:11:05   him to buy the Mac and then they've had a Mac ever since. So I feel like, uh, iPod halo effect,

00:11:11   Intel transition, and then the iPhone comes in and the iPhone is just doing what the, uh, what the,

00:11:16   um, iPod halo effect did again, which is get more products from Apple in the hands of people who

00:11:24   had never used an Apple computer before, or maybe hadn't in a long time. And once you're in the

00:11:30   family and you're going to the Apple store and of course across this time, the need to use windows

00:11:35   software is not only can you virtualize it, but it's decreasing because more and more stuff is on

00:11:40   the web or there's a Mac version of it, but a lot of it is just about the web. You put all that

00:11:45   together and the barriers come down. And I think that that's why there's that moment in like 2000.

00:11:52   It, it looks like not a lot happens between 2004 and 2005, but it did go from three to

00:11:57   5 billion that year. Right. And it never came back down. It was also five in 2000, you know,

00:12:03   like it kind of jumps around a little bit, but then it's five, five, seven, 10, 14, 17, 22.

00:12:09   Right. Like, well, okay. Uh, the Mac business, uh, what, quadruples in six years. Yeah. It's yeah.

00:12:16   And now it's gone from there. Yeah. We're like 22 to 26. And then it goes like, you know,

00:12:22   that's kind of, it's like from, this is from the year 2011 to 20, 2019 is from like 22 to 26

00:12:29   billion. It goes up and down. Um, and then 20, 20, 20 was 29 billion, 20, 21, 35. So the last

00:12:37   time I did these charts was new year's 2020. And I thought it would be a good time to look back on

00:12:43   Apple's last decade, but I chose the fiscal year and not the, not the calendar year for that,

00:12:49   even though I did the story in the beginning of January or end of December. Um, so the last two

00:12:55   years weren't in those charts. So I revisited those charts because I thought, okay, well,

00:12:59   the fiscal year is over. Let's look at the year by year charts. And it's really funny because I wrote

00:13:05   at the time in January, 2020, I said the max bin kind of sort of sedate in the, in the decade of

00:13:15   the 2020s, it had that huge growth spurt in the, in the 2000s or in the decade of the 2010s. Right.

00:13:22   So it's huge growth spurt in the 2000s. And, uh, that took it. So 2010, you're at 17.

00:13:28   And then it goes up to 22 billion in 2011. But then in the 2010s, it just kind of goes around,

00:13:36   kicks around in the twenties. It, it, it, it exits the decade at 26, but it's like 22, 23,

00:13:42   21, 24, 25. Right. It's just, it had this huge growth to go from 3 billion a year up to the

00:13:49   twenties. But that was all sort of in the previous decade and in the 2010s, it grew, but it was,

00:13:55   it was pretty kind of sedate. And that was my take in January of 2020. Um, but in, in 2020 fiscal,

00:14:04   it went to 29 billion and then it went to 35 in 21. So this, the, who knows where it's going to go

00:14:12   from here, but the sedate hanging around in the twenties of the last decade, I think pushed by

00:14:19   the Apple Silicon move and COVID again. But it has, uh, it has sent the Mac to what Apple said,

00:14:27   we talked about a couple of weeks ago, which is it's the four best quarters of max sales ever were

00:14:31   the last four. The iPad chart gave me a statistic that I didn't know until I saw this chart. Do you

00:14:38   like roller coasters? Myke, up, up, up, down, back up. Obviously we knew that the iPad was just

00:14:45   having a great year, right? The quarter of a quarter is always great, but this year 2021 is

00:14:49   the biggest year of iPad revenue of all time. And I didn't expect that that was the case. I'd still

00:14:56   assumed that those monster years between 2012 and 2014, they still hadn't beat those. We, we went

00:15:03   eight years, right? Where we were talking about how the, we living in a world where the iPad was

00:15:08   down from its previous high because it was 2013 when it hit 31 billion. So we, and we had that

00:15:14   period of what one, two, three, four, five straight years where it was down every year. And so we,

00:15:21   we really got in this mindset of like, well, the iPad's doing better. Remember when we were waiting

00:15:25   around for a sign that the iPad was doing better on this very podcast for quite a while. Anything

00:15:30   we would take. And then, but, but it turned it around. 2018 really kind of was the low and then

00:15:35   it's come up the last three years. And that's good, but it was always still kind of the narrative

00:15:40   was the iPad was fast out of the gate and then it kind of cooled off and now it's trying to find its

00:15:46   way to a new place. But 2021 fiscal was the iPad's best year ever. It was 32 billion. So it was more

00:15:54   than the 31 billion in 2013. It was at the iPad is, you know, we're back, never say what the future

00:16:01   holds, but right now 2021 is peak iPad, which, you know, again, for eight years, that was not the

00:16:07   story with the iPad. So the iPad has kind of gotten back to where it was in that really hot first

00:16:15   couple of years of its existence. And then the last thing that I kind of know it was just the

00:16:21   rocket ship of services. It's like, it's on this trajectory where I don't know, like, I feel like

00:16:30   maybe I don't know what's going to happen next, but you know, we spoke about this last time, like,

00:16:34   could, could services touch iPhone revenue and there's no way to know for sure, but it, you know,

00:16:40   you look at the charts, you've got like an annual revenue by product line. It's the only one that

00:16:45   seems like it could if it was going to happen. Yeah, it's quite a thing to look at it and see

00:16:52   how services continues to grow and how impressive the growth has been in the wearables category,

00:16:57   but how still services just keeps climbing. And my last chart is the one that I have fun doing

00:17:04   because I put them, I chart them all together and it's this ridiculously tall graph because

00:17:08   otherwise you can't see the others because of the iPhone. But the services, if you look at the graph,

00:17:13   you're like services is, you know, it's, it's the services has lifted up above the other three

00:17:19   categories. Let's put it that way. And now it is in the great void between all of Apple's other

00:17:24   product product categories and the iPhone. And it's, it's kind of charting its own course in

00:17:29   there. And that's pretty impressive actually given, given everything. Because all of these

00:17:34   other products, um, you know, like Mac and iPad, like we'll find out if, and maybe even iPhone,

00:17:40   they're going to dip a little bit, right? But like sales can dip, but the way that services works,

00:17:45   it's unlikely, it's incredibly unlikely that next year will be less than 68, right? Like it's,

00:17:51   you would require like millions of people, millions of people to cancel their subscriptions,

00:17:58   which is unlikely to occur. No, that's, that's, there's churn, but it's unlikely that everybody's

00:18:04   going to abandon Apple services en masse. And so it will keep jumping away. Also, there's nothing

00:18:10   like putting everything in perspective, all of the praise we just gave to the Mac and the iPad.

00:18:14   And then you see it on this chart and you see that, you know, the iPad at 32 all time high

00:18:21   and the Mac at 35 all time high. And then, and then, and then there's wearables at 38.

00:18:27   So they're already, the wearables category is already bigger than the Mac and the iPad. And

00:18:31   then there's services at 68. And then there's the iPhone way up there where you can't even see it.

00:18:36   So it does, and this is why we talk about the Mac business and the iPad business separately,

00:18:41   because they are big businesses that should not be discounted. But let's keep in mind also that,

00:18:48   put together there about what services is. And I'm, I'm, you know, like I really wish they

00:18:54   would break it out. I wish they would do a headphones category because I would be,

00:18:58   I'm very confident that the vast majority of that wearables category is AirPods, right?

00:19:04   And when you think about like the Mac and the iPod, iPads, like, oh, these, you know, we love

00:19:08   these. We talk about it all the time, but they, they could, they could be getting beat out by

00:19:13   AirPods. I don't think so. I think, I think who knows my just off the top of my head, my guess

00:19:19   is that it's probably, um, you know, 20 billion in AirPods and 15 billion in Apple watch, or maybe

00:19:27   it's the, maybe it's reversed. Um, I think it's smart of them to put them together. Cause they,

00:19:32   I mean, obviously it's worked for them. They've created a category that's roughly the size,

00:19:36   at least for now of the Mac and the iPod or iPad. And it's got other stuff in there. Um, guaranteed,

00:19:42   by the way, if you ever mentioned the iPod on a podcast, you will say iPod for iPad later or iPad

00:19:47   for iPod. It just, once you break the seal on the iPod, it ruins everything. Anyway, thanks. iPod

00:19:55   halo effect. Your halo continues in podcasters saying the wrong words. So yeah, it's bundling

00:20:01   the wearables altogether is smart for them because it's creating a box. That's about the size of the

00:20:05   Mac box and the iPad box. But you're right. I do wonder. And the analysts will tell you like

00:20:10   their estimates about how AirPods are doing and how Apple watch is doing. Um, but, uh, we don't

00:20:16   get to see that in the numbers. They, they, they have cleverly, they would, those businesses would

00:20:21   need to get a lot bigger for them to have to break them out. They, and obviously they would

00:20:24   prefer not to. I feel like unit sales wise for the company, it probably goes iPhone and then AirPods

00:20:30   and maybe depending on the quarter, like flip around would be my feeling. Yeah. Yeah. I think

00:20:36   you're probably right. And then, and then I've had because I've had to have a level lower revenue per

00:20:41   unit than the Mac does. I mean, look like a AirPods are like between a hundred and $200. Right.

00:20:47   So it's like exactly the cheapest product and to get to 38 billion. I mean, because look, there is

00:20:53   a, there is a cap. I feel like there is a much stronger cap right now on what the Apple watch

00:20:58   can do, even though they still, I bet the Apple watch continues to grow and grow and grow, you

00:21:02   know, but I feel like AirPods is not as much. And its revenue per unit is a lot higher than AirPods.

00:21:07   So it's gonna, it's gonna do that way. And that's the same with the Mac, right? Like they don't sell

00:21:10   as many Macs as they do iPads, but, but they cost more. So that's pretty good. This is a really

00:21:17   great thing. You should do this every year. Thank you. Yeah, I will. I mean, I should have done it

00:21:21   last year and was anything happening to distract us last year? So, uh, but I was, uh, that was a

00:21:27   fun thing to do and I will try to do the yearly wrap up from now on. This episode is brought to

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00:23:36   Relay FM. So let's do some upstream headlines. We've got a few things going on with Apple TV+

00:23:42   that I wanted to touch on. So John Skipper and Dan Lebatard. - Lebatard. Dan Lebatard. So these are,

00:23:49   let me explain who these guys are. So Dan Lebatard was a radio host and he did a very popular radio

00:23:56   show that was simulcast on ESPN and they had a podcast and all this stuff that Dan Lebatard did.

00:24:01   And he was, I'll do the short version, but he was basically interfered with by ESPN and felt like

00:24:10   ESPN didn't appreciate the work that he was doing. And at one point they wanted him, like ESPN laid

00:24:17   off his assistant and he personally rehired the assistant and paid the assistant himself.

00:24:24   - Oh boy. - Because he felt, he was like, no, you're not going to take my person away from me.

00:24:28   - That's not a good working relationship. - No. And so what happened shortly thereafter is that

00:24:34   he left ESPN. John Skipper used to run ESPN. So they got the band back together. John Skipper,

00:24:42   basically he's an executive and generally thought of as a very smart executive. And Skipper and

00:24:48   Lebatard basically got together and said, hey, digital media, let's do this. Let's make a company.

00:24:55   And they created Metalark Media, which is where his show is. And they're doing a bunch of different

00:25:01   podcasts there. One of my favorite podcasts, the podcast with Joe Posnanski and Myke Schur

00:25:06   is now a Metalark podcast. And they're building a digital content company that they control.

00:25:13   So it's a guy who was one of the people who ran ESPN for a long time and they are a kind of sports,

00:25:18   but also other culture kind of stuff, a company. And they're going out on their own because they

00:25:24   are tired of, they were tired of the interference at ESPN and thought we can do this ourselves.

00:25:29   It sounds real familiar, but this is somebody who was coming from a pretty big place in

00:25:35   traditional media and they didn't like how they were being treated. So they went and they did a

00:25:40   new thing and that's what this is. And now you can tell people what the Apple part of the story.

00:25:45   - They have now got a first look deal with Apple for documentary and unscripted series.

00:25:52   So you would assume sports related. That is what I said, but you would naturally assume it would

00:25:56   be sports related content. So sports documentary is an unscripted series for Apple. - Yeah. And I

00:26:03   wonder, this is really interesting because this first look, which means that if Apple says no,

00:26:08   they can take it elsewhere, but they get the first look on it. And I think that this company

00:26:15   may do some interesting things. We know Apple is sort of interested in sports that Apple wants to

00:26:19   span a whole bunch of different demographics with their stuff. That's why they got kids programming,

00:26:22   they got adult programming. They got all sorts of stuff that they're doing. They're looking at

00:26:25   sports in various ways. This gives them another kind of connection to people who are savvy about

00:26:30   sports. I wonder if one of the reasons that they were interested in making this deal is to

00:26:34   be able to talk to John Skipper about strategy a little bit. It's not a bad deal to sign. And

00:26:43   I like these guys. - Well, it's like their partnership with the HBO guy. What's his name?

00:26:49   - Oh, Richard Plepler. - Plepler, right? You've got to assume this is a similar thing, right?

00:26:53   It's like, we will do a first look deal with you. Anything you want to bring in, like the

00:26:59   John Stewart thing was a part of it. But you've got to assume for Apple, it's like, we want to

00:27:04   have these people in our Rolodex. - Yeah, exactly. I was trying to avoid the Rolodex metaphor earlier,

00:27:10   but that's exactly what-- - In my contacts app, which doesn't sing properly with iCloud.

00:27:15   - But that's exactly what I mean is, it is old school in a way of sort of relationship building,

00:27:22   but in a way where it's like, basically, they're like, we want Metalark on our team. And we may not

00:27:27   say yes to every project, but we want them to develop projects with us in mind, basically,

00:27:34   as their partner and make deals with good people. And I would say that these guys seem,

00:27:39   at least from what I've seen, to be in the good people in sports media category. And let me tell

00:27:45   you, there are not a lot of those people. There's a lot of unpleasant people in sports media. And

00:27:52   there's also a lot of gambling money stuff in sports media these days. And so I think this is

00:27:59   interesting in the sense that this is an independent media company. And Apple TV,

00:28:02   presumably Apple, it's a different business model. So who knows what will come out of this, but

00:28:11   I think it's a really interesting partnership for them. And I love the story of how Metalark

00:28:17   got founded because it has resonance with the kind of stuff that people we know, including us,

00:28:22   have gone through with this added level of drama of being kind of treated poorly by your big media

00:28:29   employer and just deciding, I'm out of here and I'm taking my audience with me, which is a fun one.

00:28:34   So it's not just sports. Apple seems to be on a bit of a kick with documentary and unscripted

00:28:40   stuff. Another thing that they've done along with the many things they're doing, they just signed a

00:28:44   deal with Eugene Levy to host a travel documentary series. It's called The Reluctant Traveler.

00:28:52   It reminds me very much of the show that, oh, Ricky Gervais' previous host.

00:29:02   Oh yeah, yeah, with Carl Pilkington's show, right. Idiot Abroad.

00:29:06   Sounds kind of like that, where Levy is basically not a very good traveler and he's going to travel

00:29:11   around the world to interesting places because the idea is he wants to broaden his horizons.

00:29:16   It's kind of like the pitch of the show. I mean, honestly, I'm just super into this. This sounds

00:29:21   great. I love Eugene Levy. I bet it'd be hilarious. I really love the idea of this show and I'm

00:29:25   looking forward to it. It's a great idea. The way they describe it is brilliant in the article that

00:29:29   I read about it, which is he travels to various hotels around the world and then explores the area

00:29:36   around the hotels. And I thought, well, that is the way to describe a show about a reluctant

00:29:40   traveler. It's like, look, you'll be in the hotel. It's okay. And then we'll explore.

00:29:46   You won't have to go too far. Right. You can always go back to the hotel and get food you

00:29:50   understand if you really are desperate, but why don't we try this other food? So yeah,

00:29:56   that's fun. And again, all of Apple TV is like, this is just, it's making relationships with

00:30:02   people you want to be in business with. It's a very interesting thing to see them build this

00:30:05   business. Yeah. I think everyone wants a piece of the Levy business right now.

00:30:10   And so trying to get into that is good. Right. And I feel like at the moment, Dan Levy has

00:30:15   something like this too, kind of like where it's people will take whatever they want. Right.

00:30:20   Whatever Eugene and Dan Levy want to do right now, like people will take it because somebody

00:30:27   wants the next Schitt's Creek. You know, somebody should really just get everybody, uh, who's

00:30:33   involved with SCTV, uh, back in the day to do projects. Right. Like let's just roll this out.

00:30:39   It's not just Eugene Levy, but let's get Catherine O'Hara and Rick Moranis and Andrea Martin and

00:30:45   it's Joe Flaherty available for something. I just watched the whole season of freaks and geeks again

00:30:50   for an incomparable episode that we posted this weekend. And, uh, I mean, he's 80 now, but,

00:30:55   you know, they're, they're not, none of them are spring chickens. Uh, Eugene Levy is not a spring

00:31:01   chicken, but like get them all out there. They're all so great. And now it's apparently now is their

00:31:06   time late in life to be stars again. So get, get Joe Flaherty out there too with Eugene. They can

00:31:12   go on, they can go on trips together. Let's do that. Let's do that. Last week, Apple debuted its

00:31:17   first kind of standalone original podcast series. It's called Hooked. It is a nine part true crime

00:31:24   series. Of course, uh, it's available in the Apple podcast app, but also via an RSS feed provided by

00:31:31   art 19s. They're like a hosting platform. It seems to be where Apple hosts all this stuff,

00:31:36   but they have an RSS feed. It's just available. Um, currently this show, this podcast is a

00:31:41   standalone thing, but it is kind of shown to be published via quote Apple TV plus. Um, so this

00:31:49   could mean that maybe they adapt it, but I reckon organizationally the podcast content team sits

00:31:56   with the TV plus team. That would be my expectation. It wouldn't surprise me. And art 19 hosts all of

00:32:04   Apple's podcasts. So this isn't like a new strategic system. Um, but it is like all those

00:32:11   other ones where it's sort of an Apple podcasts original, but you can get an RSS feed of it and

00:32:16   put it in overcast if you want to. And that's fine. And yes. And as Zach points out in the,

00:32:20   in the discord, which you mentioned before, which is funny, that art 19 is now owned by Amazon.

00:32:25   Amazon. Yes, it is. So our high Lex, this is we're going too many layers deep at this point.

00:32:33   Uh, but yeah, this is, this is notable because the stuff that Apple's done in the past around,

00:32:38   but that's not, um, they do their news show, but like stuff like this is all, has all been related

00:32:44   to TV. Like they had that, that something lion, something that I don't remember, which was like

00:32:50   simultaneously a podcast and an Apple TV plus show. But this just kind of, I mean, from, from

00:32:56   my perspective came out of nowhere, which is like all of a sudden, like here's this thing that we

00:33:00   have. Um, but they're continuing to move into this business too. Uh, let's talk about Apple silicon.

00:33:06   So the information published an article about, uh, talking about some of Apple's next generation chip

00:33:12   plans, kind of talking about, uh, what their next kind of processes are going to be. Do you want to

00:33:17   run through some of this for me? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's some of it's confirmation of things

00:33:20   that we've already heard from Mark Gurman. Um, and some of it is new and some of it is,

00:33:25   I think that this report lays it out logically, even though it's not anything that's going to be

00:33:31   a huge revelation. I think most of it is not. So it mentions that there are going to be second

00:33:36   generation chips, which means M2, I'm guessing due in 2022, they're going to use an upgraded five

00:33:44   nanometer process. This is sounds like it's basically, they're going to use the process

00:33:47   they already used to make the A15. So this is essentially, yeah, there will be an M2 and yeah,

00:33:52   it will be based on the A15. And so it will use the upgraded five nanometer process, um, that the

00:33:57   A15 uses over the A14. So, okay, great. We, it tracks, it's sort of what we expected anyway,

00:34:03   but they are reporting it as well. Um, they did report that Apple plans for at least some of these

00:34:08   chips to feature two dies, which is interesting because it, it means that you might have a

00:34:12   situation where what they suggest is you might have some desktop Macs down, maybe at the lower end

00:34:19   that would have two M2 processors in it. And I don't know whether this is like, would that go in

00:34:26   as an option in a 24 inch iMac or in a Mac mini, but that's an interesting idea, right?

00:34:30   So I read that and I think this might be one of those things where somebody heard a thing.

00:34:36   It's a game of telephone a little bit. Because technically, you know, if you look at all of the

00:34:41   diagrams that John Sirkis was made and asked technical and stuff, right? Like the way that

00:34:45   some of the M1 Pro and M1 Macs chips, it's like, it's just like two of the, two of the chip on the

00:34:51   same die, right? Is that the way that you describe it? And so I think it might just be that.

00:34:56   Yeah. And the report, it's unclear, right? The report gives this some credence that it may not

00:35:03   deserve, but I I'm intrigued by the idea that one way Apple might offer, um, speed improvements on

00:35:11   lower end systems probably as an upgrade is to, if they could have the ability to basically put two

00:35:20   M2 processors down, if you can think of it that way, just double the core count and double up the

00:35:26   GPU count. Like from like a, from the way that you would talk about it, you know, like they would say

00:35:32   it's, there's an eight core and you can upgrade to the 16 core with, you know, with a 20 GPU cores or

00:35:38   something like that. But it's still a relatively low power thing. I don't know. I don't know.

00:35:42   Like, I don't mean again, I don't know how this stuff works, but it seems like two

00:35:45   processes seems complicated when you could do what they've done.

00:35:49   Then you have what? Eight efficiency cores and it's weird, right? It's a little bit weird.

00:35:53   Really makes sense to me fully. I think it is that whole, and David in the chat has helped correct

00:35:58   me, the two dies on the same package thing. I think it's another version of that, but with M2

00:36:03   chips, that that's how that reads to me. I just, I can't get my head around. We've put two processes

00:36:10   in this. Wait, why? What do they do? You know, that seems very strange to me. I can't get my,

00:36:16   I can't. I mean, it gives you more cores, it gives you more cores that's and, and more,

00:36:19   and more memory possibilities and it might allow them to scale that product while it's still a

00:36:25   fairly lower cost product. I'm open to the idea, but yeah, it is a little bit baffling. Of course,

00:36:31   you know, yeah, Mark Gurman already reported that there's going to be a Mac Pro replacement with

00:36:34   two or four chips and 20 or 40 cores. And that's a sooner than 2023 was the suggestion there. So

00:36:40   we'll see. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway. They also talked about what the third generation chips. So

00:36:47   if you, if I think this is our first official M3 conversation that we've gotten to have.

00:36:51   So that's exciting. Oh no, this is too soon. This report says as soon as 2023. I love as soon as,

00:37:00   as a construction, right? Because basically it's no earlier than 2023, but might be later.

00:37:07   What it means is, yeah, it's 2023 and beyond. I prefer that than as soon as like, I don't,

00:37:13   I really don't like that phrasing. Um, I don't know if that comes from Bloomberg or if Bloomberg

00:37:18   uses it like, cause this is the information, right? But like, I don't like what I don't like

00:37:22   the as soon as like everybody it's, it's, it's almost marketing. Like where you, what you really,

00:37:28   you know, want to say is no earlier than 2023 or targeting 2023, but it might, it might slip.

00:37:36   Anyway, the point here, and I think this is also kind of putting together just what Taiwan

00:37:42   semiconductor is doing. Um, because what they're saying here, the point of this is there is going

00:37:48   to be a new three nanometer process that, that Taiwan semiconductor is going to do. And obviously

00:37:53   Apple is going to do it and they will use the third generation chips with, uh, with the new process.

00:37:59   And there might be as many as four dyes, which connects to the Mark Gurman report about how they

00:38:03   want to do this thing where they, they have multiple, uh, chips in the, uh, in the Mac pro

00:38:09   and the high end chip. So up to 40 cores per chip. Um, and then they say this process will all, but

00:38:14   also be used on iPhone chips, which is like, of course it will, right? This is the, whatever it

00:38:21   might be a 17, maybe I don't know, or maybe it's the a 16, but it won't reach the Mac until a year

00:38:28   later. It's all kind of speculative, but it really, what they're saying is obviously TSMC is working

00:38:35   on this other process and it's coming and the Mac will use those chips too, because of course they

00:38:40   will. And from our conversation with Tim and Tom last week, obviously, you know, these plans exist

00:38:48   because they're thinking many years out. So, uh, this information article is sort of saying,

00:38:52   here's kind of what the roadmap is for now. Um, what I wonder is, um, does this give us a

00:39:00   sense of what Apple would like its Mac chip pace to be? Because I think it's kind of interesting

00:39:05   to see, like, is there really going to be a one-to-one generational thing with the M one

00:39:10   M two M three and the a 14, 15, 16, where, you know, obviously the 15 is out now and we just

00:39:16   had the M one X comes out. But if we think of like the, the, the chip year really kind of starts with

00:39:20   the a 15 and then it's in an iPhone and maybe it's in an iPad and then next year, there'll be an M

00:39:28   two, which is kind of based on the a 15. And does it work like that? Where then there's an a 16 next

00:39:33   fall. And then the following, you know, either later that fall or the next spring, there's an

00:39:38   M three, is it going to be a one-to-one kind of thing? Kind of makes sense that it would.

00:39:44   There are moments where I think, are they really going to do Mac chips in an annual cycle? Like

00:39:49   they do the iPhone. Yeah. So I think what it will mean is they will have the opportunity to,

00:39:57   right. But I, I can't imagine every year, right. They're going to make new chips for every Mac.

00:40:06   I, I, I mean, it is hard to imagine it. And yet I think to myself at some point, if you're Apple

00:40:13   and you're making, you're making your own chips or you're having your own chips made for you,

00:40:17   and you're looking at your max, you say to yourself, well, why should I keep like once

00:40:24   the a 15 is up and running, I do wonder if there's a point where you say, why should I keep making the

00:40:29   M one? Why shouldn't I just switch over to the M two? Why don't, why shouldn't I do essentially

00:40:33   the a 15 version of my Mac book air chip? Why don't I switch switch to that now? Because if,

00:40:39   if the work's already done and also if you would like to release a new model but even if, which,

00:40:46   which that's the rumor for now, right. Is that there's going to be a new Mac book air,

00:40:49   but even if it's just an annual speed update, if you know, Intel's not your supplier anymore,

00:40:55   I can see the argument. That's like, well, once we're on a 15, we should flip everything over to

00:41:02   M two, because why would I keep making M one Mac book airs when I can make an M two Mac book air

00:41:08   and sell it as an upgrade and it'll be more power efficient and it'll be a little more powerful and,

00:41:13   and, and, and then you end up in a annual replenishment cycle where, you know,

00:41:19   it's the old speed bump thing, right? Where it's just like, well, the new Mac book air is just

00:41:23   using the M three and it's a little bit faster than the M two, but I could totally see them doing

00:41:28   that, but it would be a change in Mac strategy for them because they have not been as focused.

00:41:34   And the iPad doesn't do that either. Right. Generally is the annual cadence is really only

00:41:38   for the iPhone, but you got to wonder a little bit now that the chips are, are from the iPhone,

00:41:45   essentially. Yeah. I feel like the iPad is a really good, uh, analogy to how I think it's

00:41:52   going to work where every year there's new iPads. So every year, some Macs will be updated, but it

00:42:02   won't be every Mac every year. It will be every Mac within an 18 to 24 month cycle. So here's my

00:42:10   question though. I think, I think that's probably true, right? Cause you know, poor old Mac mini and

00:42:15   all that, but let's talk about the Mac book air for a second. So M one Mac book air came out

00:42:19   November of 2020 rumor is M two Mac book air redesigned, but also using a new chip, uh, spring,

00:42:29   you know, spring to mid next year, 22. Okay. That's, that's an 18 month thing. Maybe there's

00:42:39   legacy node issues and it, they wanted it to be sooner, but it's not. Um, okay.

00:42:45   Then apple in the fall comes out with the next iPhone chip that they're going to lay everything

00:42:52   else on. So we get the a 16. So now it's 2023 and the Mac book air has been out for a year.

00:43:00   And they've got the a 16 out there and it's on the new three nanometer process from TSMC. Let's say

00:43:05   maybe, maybe not. I don't know, but let's just say, and your apple and you're looking at the Mac

00:43:10   book air and you're like, we haven't updated the Mac book air in a year. This is the question I

00:43:15   have is, do you let the Mac book air lay there for another year or another six months or another nine

00:43:23   months with the M two, even though you've already moved on in your iPhone chips, do you just let it

00:43:31   lay there so that you've got a system with a chip that is your chip design, but you haven't updated

00:43:35   it in almost two years. I think that's the question is, is that okay or not? Because I can see

00:43:40   both sides. I can see both sides there. I can see saying, well, like, but if, but if so, here's the

00:43:47   thing. So do they forgo designing an M three at that point or do they, or do they not, or do they

00:43:53   say, you know, the M two is fine. The M two will take us for two years, you know, and the M two

00:43:57   may be so the M one so impressive that maybe the M two will be so impressive that they're like,

00:44:00   it's fine. We don't need to bother and, and we're going to focus on our pro systems for this

00:44:08   generation. Maybe I think that your argument is, is perfectly valid, but I can see the counter,

00:44:14   which is, or they could just seize complete control over their chip production line and say,

00:44:21   every year we'll do A and M and M pro. But they would never benefit from like the scale, right?

00:44:32   Because if you continue to make M one chips for on an 18 to 24 month period, by the time you get

00:44:38   towards the end, you're producing them much better from an efficiency perspective. Sure.

00:44:44   If you're changing them over every single year, you're not getting that benefit anymore. And like,

00:44:50   and if you're thinking about margins, you know, they make more money on those machines,

00:44:53   the longer that they have them around. And I just feel like it would just logistically,

00:44:59   that just seems very complicated, like every single year changing it over, especially when

00:45:03   like, Oh, well, if you're not going to change the chassis, well, what if you need different cooling?

00:45:08   Probably not. I'm sure that they're not going to develop that. But you know what? I just think it's

00:45:11   a lot. And it's just I look at the iPad, right? That's what for me is really like, that's what

00:45:17   solidifies it in my mind, like the iPad Pro, they update it every two years. And that's fine. Like

00:45:23   the fact that the iPhone gets a new chip every year. It for me, it doesn't matter because you

00:45:28   can't like it, an iPhone and a Mac do different things. And like, just because the iPhone gets

00:45:37   its new chip every year doesn't mean the Mac is going to then it's not like all now the Mac's

00:45:42   being quote left behind like when they're so incredibly powerful already. Well, and nobody's

00:45:48   saying the M1 Macs is a an embarrassment to Apple because the A15 exists. Exactly. Like nobody,

00:45:55   nobody's saying that. I wonder if the truth is that to get all these new Macs out on Apple silicon,

00:46:04   there's this transition strategy where year one, which is M1 and M1 Pro and M1 Max is followed

00:46:13   immediately by M2. And that's going to generate the M2 chip that will run, you know, with four

00:46:18   in the Mac Pro. And they may update the laptops to an M2 Pro, M2 Max at that point too next year.

00:46:23   But that the long, the long term plan is to settle down. But maybe because they're in this

00:46:30   transition now, they're going to step it up a little bit because they need to clear out

00:46:34   everything and get everything on new systems and or on new chips and get the Intel stuff out. And

00:46:39   that maybe they settle back to a cadence where the it's every other A generation is a Mac generation.

00:46:47   Every M chip is actually every other A chip. Eventually. Yeah. That's what I think it will

00:46:54   end up going. Yeah. Honestly, that's one of the things that surprises me about these second

00:46:58   generation chips in 2022 rumor because, and that's been a, I mean, Mark Gurman said, I believe new

00:47:05   Macbook Airs with a new chip coming next year. And honestly, I, part of me is surprised that that's

00:47:14   the case and that they wouldn't just make a new looking Macbook Air with an M1. Well, I think that

00:47:23   the idea is that Macbook Air will then be with an M2 for two years. For two years. But like, I think

00:47:29   that because it's like, for example, we got a Macbook Pro a year after the first one, but like,

00:47:32   they've got to get these new designs out. And so they'll put kind of the best that they can put in

00:47:37   that new design and then they will live for a period of time. Let it rest. Yeah. That could be,

00:47:42   that could be what I would expect. This report made me have a question in my brain. The Mac Pro,

00:47:48   right? Yeah. We get a third brand name for a chip. And I was thinking genuinely M1 Pro Max. Pro Max.

00:47:58   I don't know. I think M1 Max Pro, M1 Max Max. Will there be a third name? Cause it's not going to be

00:48:04   the same chip, right? In theory, from a marketing perspective. If, if it is truly two or four M1

00:48:13   Max chips or M2 Max chips, if you want, depending on the generation, if it truly is two or four. M1 Extreme. I think that,

00:48:22   yeah, but they could also very easily just say it's got two M, it's got two M1 Max. It's got four M1

00:48:28   Max. M1 Max times four. They could just do that. They could just, it's not a, cause it's not a new

00:48:33   chip. It's four of them. In the Mac Pro, at least I that's where I, that, you know, I was saying that

00:48:38   earlier thing about the two M2 chips. I think that's too complicated, but in the Mac Pro and

00:48:43   just the Mac Pro, I think you could get away with that. They may also just call it by cores. That's

00:48:47   how they differentiate so many of these chips now is just by core count. Um, and so like the, the CPU

00:48:52   cores and then the secondarily the GPU cores. So they may just simply say M1 Max 10, M1 Max 20,

00:49:01   M1 Max 40 core, right? Like just call it by the core count. You're right. They may just say like

00:49:06   the Mac Pro comes of an M1 Max chip. Like that's just it. Right. But it's, but it starts at probably

00:49:13   the highest configuration of M1 Max now, but then can also increase, but they're all M1 Max. Yeah,

00:49:20   I think that M1 Max chip, sorry, I forgot. They're all M1 Max chips, but then you just get the core

00:49:26   counts. With M1 Max chips. Cause they have kind of run out unless they did do, which I don't think

00:49:31   they should, but unless they did do something like M1 Max Pro, which would be horrible. Well,

00:49:36   they'd have to do Pro Max cause that's already what they have, but I don't think they will. I

00:49:40   think that they've used Pro and Max and that, that it will be more likely be either it comes

00:49:45   with four or it'll just be the core count, right? This is the 40 core version and if,

00:49:49   and this is the 20 core version and you can also get our super awesome binned 16 core version or

00:49:57   whatever it is. Yeah. I don't know. This episode of upgrade is brought to you by Hunter Douglas.

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00:51:36   Relay FM. Let's talk about the MacBook Pro a little bit more because yeah, it's just fun to

00:51:41   talk about this computer right now. You put in the show notes and it is really worth reading. We

00:51:46   don't want to spoil this too much. Stephen Hackett's review of the 14 inch MacBook Pro genius.

00:51:53   Like every every now and then like someone comes across like, oh, I have a little idea and then

00:51:58   the way you realize that review it perfect basically in a nutshell, Stephen reviewed the

00:52:04   computer as if the 2016 MacBook Pros never existed. And it's a different look comparing it to

00:52:11   the MacBook Pro that looks a lot more like it in terms of ports and things which is the last

00:52:17   before the USB-C switch over. That's good stuff. It's an interesting approach. What I like about

00:52:22   the review is that it's just it's it's saying different things. Like he was showing some stuff

00:52:29   to me during it and like I really loved it and like, I love that it didn't. It's just not talking

00:52:34   about the keyboard. Like it's not talking about ports coming back. Like it's just it almost makes

00:52:40   me think of when you know, we were talking about iPhone blips earlier on right like you have this

00:52:45   blip where like all of a sudden there's a ton of revenue. And it's like really if you just plot

00:52:49   these MacBook Pros on a trajectory back from the PowerBook to now like the the 2016 era ones were

00:52:56   just a blip where everything went wrong. But if you remove that, this one is just on a similar

00:53:01   trajectory to what the 2015 or before MacBook Pros would have been like. And that's it's kind of fun

00:53:06   to look at it that way. Yeah. Now you've taken your MacBook Pro with you on your little trip.

00:53:11   On this trip, I actually had the the I extended my my review length so that I could take this on this

00:53:21   trip because I thought it would be at least a little bit instructive to travel with the MacBook

00:53:25   Pro. And it's you know, it's bigger and heavier than the MacBook Air that I usually take on a trip

00:53:31   like this. But it's been fun. You know, it is it is big, although that the screen is nice and

00:53:37   beautiful and big like it always is. But now I can take it with me and work from elsewhere. I think

00:53:44   what I would say is it's more like my whole iMac is with me. Yeah. Then when I bring the MacBook

00:53:52   Air with me, where it's not my because this is not my computer and it's not migrated from my my

00:53:59   stuff. And I've been, you know, all weekend I've been like, Oh, I need that app. I better go install

00:54:03   it. Right. It's not migrated at all. So I'm slowly kind of been adding some stuff in that I didn't

00:54:08   need when I was using it at home that now I realize I need for whatever I'm doing this weekend.

00:54:12   But it's been a long time since the computer that I brought with me was essentially as capable or

00:54:23   was the computer that I use at home. It's been at least since I switched to the 5k iMac because

00:54:31   before that my MacBook Air was my primary for a few years. And so although it was a MacBook Air,

00:54:36   it had all of my stuff and it was I wasn't losing capability by traveling. It wasn't greatly capable,

00:54:42   but it was capable and I wasn't feeling that loss. So it's been at least since then, since 20 what,

00:54:48   at 15, 14, something like that. So it's been a long time. And that's the thing that struck me the

00:54:56   most about it is, although it is not my computer from home, it's as capable as my computer that I

00:55:02   use every day. And that's a different feeling, right, than having it be, well, I'm this is the

00:55:07   road life that I'm leading now. And that means everything's not quite as good. And yeah, the

00:55:12   screen's not 27 inches, I'll give you that. But otherwise, I don't feel like I'm working in a,

00:55:19   you know, make do with the compromised device. And everybody's gonna have a different feeling

00:55:24   about that. And I wouldn't, I'm not gonna go out and buy one of these to replace my M1 MacBook Air.

00:55:28   I'm not gonna do it. I keep telling myself that I'm not.

00:55:31   Look in the mirror every time I say it.

00:55:33   I'm not gonna do it. Not gonna happen. No. Hey, hey, self, don't do it. Don't do it. Does somebody

00:55:38   in my family need a M1 MacBook Air that I could hand down so I could buy one of these? No, no,

00:55:42   they're fine. They're all fine. But it has been delightful, honestly, to have such a good screen

00:55:49   and such a powerful computer when I'm not at home. Yeah. Because I haven't had that. Like, again,

00:55:56   not like that MacBook Air that I was traveling with was powerful, but it was always the level of

00:56:02   performance and functionality that I expected day to day. And so when I took it with me, it was no

00:56:08   change. And with this, it's the first time since then where I have not felt like I was compromising,

00:56:16   I guess, to travel. Yeah, I was saying about the iMac Pro thing. MKBHD published his review,

00:56:22   and he's known for, you know, if he was going to a WWDC, an Apple event, or whatever, he would take

00:56:30   his iMac Pro with him because the render times were that important for getting his videos out

00:56:36   quickly. And he was saying now, like, the MacBook Pro is faster than that. He doesn't need to do

00:56:43   that anymore. Now he can replace the travel iMac Pro with a 16 inch MacBook Pro. Like that's the

00:56:50   one he's going with because it's, you know, the fastest of the fast, right? Travel iMac Pro.

00:56:55   But this is, I, WWDC 20 something, I don't remember which one, I saw him. He was waiting for a taxi

00:57:04   on his own. And he had two suitcases and a massive Pelican case. And in that Pelican case was the

00:57:13   iMac Pro. And I've never seen somebody look more flustered than he did because he was just waiting

00:57:18   for an Uber like surrounded by luggage on his own. I have no idea how he managed to move all of that

00:57:25   stuff around. It was kind of incredible. So my MacBook Pro, a couple of other observations, I've

00:57:29   been, you know, using it as a laptop more and similar to you. Like, it's just fantastic. It's

00:57:34   just such a beautiful screen. I have succumbed to the screen real estate. I've gone from the

00:57:42   more space. I used the scaled mode. I use more space. You've left 2X scaling behind. I know I've

00:57:48   always done more space because for me, a Mac laptop, it's just, I can't fit enough things on

00:57:55   the screen if I use it in the native resolution. Like, I mean, that's the one thing that I noticed,

00:58:01   right? Going from a 27 inch iMac down to this thing is that everything's, everything's really

00:58:06   cramped. And if I was in a scenario where I really needed more space, I would do that. And more

00:58:13   space looks good. Everything's a little smaller, but it looks better now than it did previously.

00:58:18   It really does. To my eyes anyway. But I can't, I just can't deal with the native resolution. It's

00:58:25   just, it's not, I just can't get enough on the screen that I want. I get it. All of my RAM issues

00:58:30   have been completely solved and that's fantastic. Like, I've really been putting it through its

00:58:34   paces and I have not once gotten a warning that I didn't have enough RAM, which is something that

00:58:37   would happen to my, me on my 13 inch MacBook Pro quite a lot. And I am 100% used to the size

00:58:45   difference of this machine. Like, I don't notice it anymore. It just feels like what a laptop feels

00:58:49   like. You know, I know it's not, it's not a ton different, but it's just like a thing that is not

00:58:53   a thing at all. And I continue to just, I love the design. I love the design so much of this computer.

00:58:58   I think it looks so freaking cool. I really like it. I get every time I open it up, I'm like, this

00:59:04   is fun. I just, as you were talking, I switched to more space. Yeah. And now I can see the discord

00:59:14   in the show notes. Yeah. Side by side. And it's like, oh yeah, this is why I do it. I know it's

00:59:19   not ideal and I know people are going to be so bad that I haven't got retina, but, uh, the screen

00:59:25   looks great. It's just not, it's just scaled. It is. That's the beauty of it. Yeah. It's not the

00:59:30   native retina or whatever, but it's not native resolution to X, right? It is. It's scaled. And

00:59:35   so it's not going to be as perfectly crisp and all that. Like every Apple laptop, uh, up to now,

00:59:40   basically it took a bit getting used to it because at first I was like, oh no, now the text is too

00:59:43   small, but, but I got used to it pretty quickly. Yeah. I can see that. Um, let's also, we've got a

00:59:50   couple of stories to follow up on, uh, around app store legality stuff like antitrust and all that

00:59:56   kind of stuff. So the first is kind of not Apple, but will be probably Apple at some point, which is

01:00:02   Google and South Korea. So you remember that the South Korean government made a ruling that to you

01:00:09   to be able to sell apps in South Korea and an app store, they were going to require both Google and

01:00:15   Apple to have alternate payment processes in the app store. Um, so far Apple has kind of just waved

01:00:22   their hand at this, which I'm intrigued to see how this is going to run, but maybe they were waiting

01:00:27   to see what Google did because really weirdly, I think this, uh, whole thing was focused on Google

01:00:33   mostly, which was always strange to me, but they called it like it was known as the Google law in

01:00:39   South Korea. Um, so Google have published what they're going to do and they've done a couple of

01:00:44   things. First is they've created a user-friendly user interface for people to be able to choose how

01:00:50   they want to pay. So you want to buy an app or you want to buy a subscription. It will pop up with

01:00:55   Google play always as an option. And then any other option that that developer may have asked for, you

01:01:00   know, if they're going to use like, I don't know, say Stripe or whatever for their payment processing.

01:01:04   But what Google has done, which I don't think anyone saw coming was they're still going to charge

01:01:13   you as the developer, but they're going to reduce their fee by 4%, which they say should be enough

01:01:20   for payment processing might not always be so you could end up paying more money overall, depending

01:01:26   on the size of your transaction. So you can use whoever you want to process the payments, but you

01:01:32   still have to pay Google.

01:01:33   I, I expected this move, but I expected this move from Apple. And in fact, at one point there was a,

01:01:40   some sort of maybe testimony where Apple described a scenario where they said, how would we get paid?

01:01:47   Yeah. If we can't get paid by taking our percentage for all of our largesse and providing a development

01:01:54   platform. Again, it's that, it's that Apple argument that we want money from developers because we

01:01:59   give them the tools and we give them the platform, which is true. But again, we have talked about how

01:02:06   developers and their apps also provide fundamental value to Apple's products that they sell and that

01:02:13   Apple has decided that's not good enough. And they also want to have a tariff on all of the money that

01:02:20   developers make. Okay. So they said this and they said, well, you know, we could do that, but then we

01:02:25   need to make our money somewhere else. And here, Google walks in to Korea and says, all right, just

01:02:31   to be clear here, because, because you may have heard it and you may not have understood it. I'm just

01:02:36   going to say this again. Google says, okay, if you don't use us, you don't, we won't take our 15%

01:02:44   transaction because you're not using us for payment. However, because you're using Google play,

01:02:51   you owe us a percent of the transaction you make independently. That's what they're saying. They're

01:03:00   saying because you use Google's APIs, Google's operating system, which we give away for free and

01:03:05   everybody gets to use it because of all of our largesse for developers. If you're not going to let

01:03:12   us take a cut right on top of our payment system, we'll let you use a third party system. You still

01:03:17   got to give us our cut. And we'll make it a little bit less than it normally was because we know you

01:03:22   actually need and for, for eBooks and stuff, it's a little bit less than that even, but it's still,

01:03:26   you got to give us our cut. And so the argument here is basically you can lose us as a payment

01:03:33   processor, but you cannot escape the money you owe us. And that sounds so much like something Apple

01:03:39   would do. And look, Google did it. Google went first.

01:03:42   Really? Like it's genuinely incredible because if you did find and replace Google for Apple, you'd

01:03:49   be like, yeah, that makes sense that this is just not, I honestly, I was expecting Google to just be

01:03:55   like, okay. But I think for them, like when the more I thought about it after reading this was

01:04:00   like, well, they do offer sideloading, right? So it's like for Google, it's like, well, you can just

01:04:06   do this other thing if you want to. And I think in the, in Ben Thompson's daily update, he made a good

01:04:11   point where it was like, clearly developers don't want to because they just, Oh, clearly, right. You

01:04:16   want to be in the Play Store and Google's done lots of stuff in the last few years to make the

01:04:21   Play Store more, um, enticing. Like I noticed this recently when I was in the Play Store, you get

01:04:27   points when you download apps and stuff, and you can use those points for money off apps, right? So

01:04:34   you get like loyalty points, basically. Stuff that Apple doesn't have to do because they're not

01:04:38   competing against anyone for stores, right? But Google maybe feels that they want to do these

01:04:43   kinds of things to just make sure that people stay in the Play Store. But something also to know is

01:04:50   Google also recently reduced their fees for basically every type of subscription based payment

01:04:57   in the App Store. They're all fit in the Play Store. They're all at 15% now. Some media services

01:05:03   can qualify for 10%. This is like ebooks and streaming music, because Google recognizes that the

01:05:08   margins are smaller, and there are no earning thresholds or anything. So I think that there are

01:05:15   some instances where just consumables, I think may or like upfront purchases can be a bit smaller,

01:05:21   but don't quote me on that. But basically, Google is pushing towards 15%. But the idea being that

01:05:27   if you said, Hey, I want to use Stripe for processing, Google will say, Well, we expect 11% of

01:05:33   that back.

01:05:34   Yeah, so so here's what this means. This means that everybody who thought alternate payment

01:05:41   processing meant getting away from giving up 10 or 15% or 30% or whatever of your revenue to the

01:05:48   platform vendor plus credit card transactions. They're saying no, it doesn't. It doesn't actually

01:05:55   mean that this is not how you get to keep more of the money for the software you sell. Because the

01:06:01   platform owners feel like you thought you were getting you thought you were paying them a

01:06:08   percentage in exchange for being on their store. But what they've decided is that you're actually

01:06:14   paying them embedded in your revenue, you're paying a fee for being a developer for having on

01:06:23   iOS, you know, having Xcode, having, you know, whatever the App Store infrastructure is, that's

01:06:29   and Google's equivalent. That's what they're saying is, is that the thing you thought was just

01:06:33   a skimming off the top, more than we take in credit card fees was actually us taking charging you a

01:06:42   fee for being a developer and using our platforms that we built and we spent money on. And so we

01:06:47   want some of your money. The fact that Google did this, I think also shows a supreme level of

01:06:54   confidence that while laws may control something like exclusivity of a payment system, that it's a

01:07:07   lot harder to change the law to say that a company that makes an operating system can't charge

01:07:17   developers a fee for using it. And that they will get that fee no matter what and however they want

01:07:23   it. And I'm not a lawyer, but I am observing behavior of large companies who have lots of

01:07:27   lawyers. And for Google to do this, because my immediate reaction was all they're going to do,

01:07:33   like they're honoring the letter of the law without giving up any of their money or almost any of

01:07:38   their money. And they might even, some circumstances take more money. So why? So, you

01:07:45   know, they're just going to make everybody angrier and this, and that may be true, right? Like this

01:07:49   is an environment where everybody's grumpy at tech companies. But when you think about it a little,

01:07:55   it really feels to me like this is a move where they are supremely confident that they're not

01:08:02   going to, that they can be required to do things like allow competition for payment services, but

01:08:09   that what they're not going to be legislated into abandoning is their fee to developers that they

01:08:17   charge for using their platforms. That that's a different thing and that it got tied. We've been

01:08:22   all viewing it as one thing. And I think they did too, honestly, they did too. But now that the

01:08:29   rubber meets the road, they're like, oh no, no, it's two things. What are you talking about? We

01:08:33   always said this. And honestly, even if there was a law that said you can't tie it to individual

01:08:41   purchases in a store, you know what would happen is, let's use Apple as an example, Apple would

01:08:48   say, well, great news. We're not going to charge you anything and you can use alternate payment

01:08:53   systems. However, in addition to your annual Apple developer membership, you now need to submit your

01:09:02   revenue statement with Apple and pay a fee on your revenue and we will audit your revenue in the app.

01:09:09   And you need to basically you need to pay your tax at the end of the year. Like there are lots of ways

01:09:14   that they could do this that make it more onerous actually, and maybe even more expensive for

01:09:20   developers if they have to. But it seems like it's going to be a at least a much tougher thing. And

01:09:27   obviously their lawyers think it's a much tougher thing to tell a company you can't charge people

01:09:32   ever for using your stuff. Your operating system is essentially a public utility. So that's I'm

01:09:41   fascinated by that. So this is a power move by Google and ultimately will probably be by Apple to

01:09:46   basically say, if the only way that you're going to be able to throw the book at us is limited

01:09:52   competition and not charging a fee, then sure have competition, but we got our money either way.

01:09:58   Okay. And so I cannot imagine that this won't be where we'll end up with Apple too.

01:10:05   This could be like as well what they've done here is they're opening, you know, and they may get

01:10:10   requested or forced to tweak it. Like the one thing for me that is I think a little questionable and

01:10:18   does reduce any kind of benefit to developers is the fact that Google Play is always a payment

01:10:25   option, right? That it's not actually possible for a developer to opt out of that.

01:10:30   That's the sign in with Apple move, right? Which is like, sure, you can, you can offer other

01:10:34   logins, but you must also offer the platform login.

01:10:37   And Google make a compelling reason, you know, like they can't confirm that they're going to be

01:10:42   able to do parental controls, etc, etc, etc. But what this does is reduces basically the reason for

01:10:49   a developer to do this alternate payment thing to zero. Because if you had your own, if you were

01:10:55   just using your own payment system, even though Google is still going to charge you, there could

01:10:59   be benefits to it. Like now you just have one payment processor that you use, right? And it all

01:11:04   goes to one place. And it may make other cost savings for you as a business, depending on your

01:11:09   size, for just managing all of your payments going to one place. If you have say, Android and iOS

01:11:16   apps might make it easier to confirm payment and subscription status and all that kind of stuff.

01:11:22   But if you always have to have Google Play as an option, like I don't know why any user would

01:11:28   decide to choose the other option.

01:11:31   And so then it's kind of like, well, now we're just adding unnecessary complexity into the whole

01:11:36   thing. So we're not going to do it. So, you know, I would like to see that not be the thing, right?

01:11:41   Like from a developer's perspective, but from a user's perspective, I don't know. I also just feel

01:11:47   like I know what Google is saying, like, oh, there's no way, there's no possible way for parental

01:11:53   controls to be like, you could make an API and you know, like, right, you could, right? Like,

01:11:59   currently there isn't.

01:12:01   You have no interest in doing it because you're putting resources towards something. But that

01:12:06   actually, it goes back to what I think is the fundamental thing here is the only danger and

01:12:12   lawyers obviously think it's not much of a danger and I think they're probably right. The only real

01:12:17   danger is being told, hey, Google. Oh, no, I just set off a bunch of Google home.

01:12:23   No, no, it's fine. Because it's okay. That's it's okay. Okay. It's okay.

01:12:27   Actually, maybe they changed that. Maybe they added that. I don't know.

01:12:31   Let's do this again. Mr. Google, I know that you have no reason to want to put a lot of extra effort

01:12:39   into building an API for parental controls so that you can have people use third party payment

01:12:47   systems with parental controls. But we're now legally going to make you build an API specified in

01:12:53   a law. It's going to be real good, folks, if it's in a law. That's going to be a really good API.

01:12:58   You have to do it, which means we're now at the down at the level of literally telling you how to

01:13:03   use your employees. It actually brings to mind the was the FBI Apple thing where they're like,

01:13:08   you need to hire you need to make employees available to us to do this. And they're like,

01:13:13   you can't tell us as a private company that we need to hire a bunch of people to do a thing for

01:13:19   you, to do work for you. This is similar to that in the sense that it's basically saying, is a law

01:13:25   going to say, Google, you need to do this thing. You need to build an API. You have to do all this

01:13:29   because we have decided that the government and the laws are going to control what you do with

01:13:36   your code and your operating system that you built and that you own. And I think that there is a risk

01:13:42   here, but I understand why you might do an analysis and say, ultimately, it's unlikely

01:13:51   that the government is going to declare Android or iOS a public benefit that is controlled by

01:14:03   the public and that the corporation that built it can't run it anymore, especially since there's

01:14:12   competition at least between the two giants. That's also their biggest risk, right? Their biggest

01:14:17   risk is that the company comes in and says, guess what? iOS now belongs to the people, right?

01:14:22   Android belongs to the people or Google Play belongs to the people. And what Google is saying

01:14:28   is like, if Epic wants to take all the money, that's fine. Build your own damn operating system,

01:14:36   but this is ours and you pay us if you use it. Interesting thing because practically you can't.

01:14:44   Practically it would be very hard to do that, to build your own operating system and have it be

01:14:48   successful in any way. They want access to the people who are using Google's operating system

01:14:52   and Apple's operating system. And I see the argument that it's a what, monopsony. The idea

01:14:56   is these two players and they're skimming all this money out of the market. But I do think that

01:15:00   there's the counter argument, which is it's their private property. They built it. They do get to

01:15:07   decide what they do with it and they do get to profit from it. And if I look at what Google's

01:15:13   move was in Korea, that's what I take out of it is they seem to be very confident that there are

01:15:18   limits to what a government is going to tell Google to do with its operating system. And so,

01:15:23   you know, here you go. Here's your competition. We don't lose any money.

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01:17:16   and Relay FM. Let's do some #askupgrade questions. First one comes from Stepan, who asks two part,

01:17:25   just a two part question. Part one. Do you use or plan to use any of the Apple iCloud Plus features?

01:17:34   And also, do you use sign in with Apple? If it's actually a three part question, this is part 2b.

01:17:40   If yes, do you hide your email? So iCloud Plus features. Where do I fill in the bubbles on this

01:17:46   and then who do I send it to with the multi part? To me. Question. iCloud Plus is just paid iCloud.

01:17:52   So the answer is yes, I use the extra storage. I don't use the private browsing at this point

01:17:58   because it doesn't or the what is it called? Magic. Private Relay. Magic Tunnel, private relay.

01:18:03   I don't use that because it doesn't work right. Like I tried it and it didn't work right and it

01:18:09   slowed everything down and things were incompatible and so I'm not using it right now. Maybe I'll turn

01:18:13   it on later. But I am using all that. iCloud Plus is literally it's just you're paying for stuff on

01:18:19   iCloud and I have the two terabyte plan so I'm using a lot of iCloud Plus storage but that's

01:18:25   about it. Well they also have the like when you die thing right? That's part of it. Oh yes, coming

01:18:31   this fall. We're all dying this fall. Yeah sure. And also they do the hide my email and custom

01:18:39   email domain. This is all part of iCloud Plus too. I'm not using any email related things for Apple.

01:18:44   As for sign in with Apple, I have used it with some things and where I really have used it is

01:18:52   there's like an app that I want to try and they're like oh you need to try this app you need to sign

01:18:57   up for an account. I'm like oh boy and I have you sign in with Apple for those with the hidden email

01:19:02   address so that I can basically treat it as a disposable account if I don't want to ever

01:19:07   tell them who I am and I can turn off that email address and say goodbye. I like that. I like not

01:19:13   having to give them my email address right away. I have also used it with some stuff where I ended

01:19:19   up going with it. My problem with sign in with Apple is that you get your accounts can often get

01:19:24   in a very weird state where Apple kind of owns your account a little bit and some web apps are

01:19:31   better than others at like yes can I change my password exactly so that I can just log in normally

01:19:37   and not use sign in with Apple and some of them do and some of them don't and honestly I get so used

01:19:42   to using autofill passwords and stuff that I get to there's one in particular the the web alternate

01:19:50   reality game place ball where I set up a sign in with Apple account along when it announced and I

01:19:57   still look at it and play it and it's fun but every time I go there I'm like oh right and I have to

01:20:03   click sign in with Apple and then I have to put in my Mac password in order for it to log me in

01:20:09   and it only logs me in for a certain amount of time and I think to myself I regret using sign

01:20:15   in with Apple because I'd rather have it be like everything else that I do. Where sign in with

01:20:19   Apple is great is if you're on an iPad or an iPhone and it can just do like face ID and sign you in

01:20:26   like when it works super smooth it's nice but honestly I sort of have decided I other than for

01:20:34   sort of throw away I don't want to commit stuff I don't use it because I'd really rather have my

01:20:39   account be normal and be able to have control over it. So I have a couple of thoughts on this so I use

01:20:45   all the same iCloud plus features that you and do do and don't do. Sign in with Apple I do really

01:20:51   like it but I have hit this I hit a thing the other day where I signed I used sign in with Apple it's

01:20:57   like oh great because I would prefer to use similar to you it's like I don't know if I'm going to want

01:21:01   this in the long term I don't know if I want this company to have my email address and so sometimes

01:21:06   I hide it but not always it's like oh this is nice and easy but then I thought to myself if I need to

01:21:12   sign in with this and sign in with Apple isn't working my account does not exist because what I

01:21:20   want Apple to do with sign in with Apple is to surface a password that I can get in the passwords

01:21:28   section of the settings right so like if I had to sign in somehow can I get a username and password

01:21:37   that I could use if sign in with Apple was broken somehow because otherwise I have this account

01:21:42   I me Myke Hurley I do not own the username and password for that account Apple has it.

01:21:50   Right Apple does it.

01:21:51   Why can't I have it too right like why can't you put it in the passwords section of the settings

01:21:59   app or system preferences like I would also like to have it I don't have it and I find that to be

01:22:06   odd like I just used sign in with Apple to create an account with a government website which I

01:22:13   thought was awesome because I could use that but then as soon as I did it I was like hmm

01:22:18   I don't have the password for this account right like I don't have it I have to use sign in with

01:22:27   Apple which is probably going to be fine but what if it isn't fine right now I don't have that

01:22:32   anymore similarly the thing that I wanted to mention and look we're all friends here all right

01:22:38   so just okay my logging in to my Mac password is not as good as my one password password from a

01:22:47   strength perspective right and I expect that now I've said that about 95% of our listeners have

01:22:53   gone oh yeah because now we're like keychain is so like and the password app is like so ingrained

01:23:02   it is really easy to sign into stuff in theory where if you had physical access to my Mac

01:23:09   compared to if everything was in one password like my one password password is really complicated

01:23:16   my Mac password not so much because in my mind is it who has been in the past well all my passwords

01:23:23   are in one password and you can't get to those now that we're also all saving things for auto

01:23:29   fill more because the passwords functionality of of on Mac devices and an iOS device has gone better

01:23:38   so what I thought the other day is I would like to set a more complicated password when a password

01:23:45   is needed for auto fill there's something that I would like that is what I'm throwing out there

01:23:50   to Apple's passwords team if you are asking me to enter a password for auto filling I would like that

01:23:57   to be a much larger password than the one just to get in to my Mac with so there you go and for all

01:24:03   the people that think they now need to tell me I need a 25 character cryptographic password to sign

01:24:09   into my Mac thanks I don't want your feedback all right yeah we're all cool here you know

01:24:13   yeah I mean that would be their argument I think at Apple too would be you need a stronger password

01:24:19   for your Mac I know but then I would also ask what they use because I'm I'm assuming that most

01:24:27   people are in a similar boat to me ecomony asks how frequently do you raise and lower your standing

01:24:33   desk it varies my standing desk is basically a seated desk it can but I I very very ever

01:24:41   I sit by default and then I have I feel like I want to stand and so then I stand for a while

01:24:47   and then and then and then I need to feel like I need to go back down and sit for a while so I'll

01:24:52   do that often when I feel like I need to stand I actually just go and out into the other room and

01:24:57   write on the iPad at the at the bar in the kitchen and I can do that sitting or standing but I usually

01:25:03   stand so I often will just move but it happens it happens when I'm you know maybe my back hurts or

01:25:10   something like that or I'm just uncomfortable or I've been sitting all day and I want to do

01:25:13   something different and then I'll pop it up I have a little preset button and it just goes up and

01:25:18   it's great but mostly it's sitting and Andy asks I've heard Myke and other podcasters talk about

01:25:23   using their MacBook Pro in clamshell mode of an external monitor I'm just curious why do you keep

01:25:28   the lid closed why not keep the laptop lid open and use it as a second display does leaving the

01:25:35   lid open cause issues so I can answer for me I can't answer for other people my physical desk space

01:25:42   means that the laptop really can only fit underneath the display and the display is not

01:25:48   high up high up enough off the desk to have it open I also don't like having two keyboards in

01:25:55   front of me like and two track pads because I use external keyboards and external track pads

01:26:00   I find it to be neater also I have a 31 inch display a 14 inch display next to or underneath

01:26:08   the 31 inch display to me just looks really weird like the size difference is so massive

01:26:13   so for those reasons it's not needed and also I have a 30 inch display I do not need a second

01:26:18   14 inch display I don't I don't feel like I need that um but in those instances so they're all the

01:26:25   reasons that I do it I don't know why everybody else does it the way they do it it's awkward I

01:26:29   used to have a stand from ergotron I want to say at work at IDG that was I had my Apple display

01:26:39   and then the stand was um I think it was the the display was on the stand on an arm or like a mount

01:26:47   a base amount and then there was a tray basically with for a laptop and it was so the the idea there

01:26:56   was for to do just this we just run two monitors and so it was much higher up and it was sort of

01:27:02   wider open so that the screen was was kind of taller right like not at an angle where you'd

01:27:07   type on it but an angle for display purposes to try and sort of get rid of all of the length

01:27:12   of the keyboard and trackpad that pushes the screen further back

01:27:16   and with all of that and I used it that way for a while for maybe a year or two

01:27:22   it was awkward I mean it was weird and awkward um that second display really did become kind of

01:27:29   just a garbage place for secondary stuff because the first display was so big and the other display

01:27:34   was so small that I you know I tried it but it only really ever became kind of an ancillary thing

01:27:40   and then I didn't use it enough for it to make sense and then I ended up just running it mostly

01:27:44   in clamshell after that so I think that's the truth of it is that laptop screens are so much

01:27:50   smaller than external displays at this point and ergonomically to contort your laptop into

01:27:55   something so it looks like a workable second screen I don't know it's it's a tough one so

01:27:59   what I think is mostly it's a nice idea but then you when you put it in practice you're like I

01:28:05   really rather just have one display or even really rather have two displays that are that fit together

01:28:10   and are going to be similar sizes I like multiple displays like as a thing I just don't really like

01:28:16   laptop displays as my second display because it's like usually it's a very varied in size and also I

01:28:23   just don't like having the keyboard and the trackpad and all of that there in front of the

01:28:27   display it kind of tends to mean that either the display's further away than you would want it to

01:28:31   be or now I have like another and also then I find myself like even though I have one keyboard in

01:28:37   front of me I'm like reaching over to type on the other ones sometimes and then that's not so good

01:28:41   for ergonomics like so I just like to keep it that laptop just keep it closed yeah if you'd like to

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01:29:15   douglas and amazon music for their support of this week's episode but most of all thank you for

01:29:20   listening if you'd like to find jason online go to six colors dot com the incomparable dot com and

01:29:25   jason hosts many shows here at relay fm as do i you can go to relay.fm shows and pick out something

01:29:30   new to listen to jason is at j snell j s n e double l i'm at i mike i m y k e and we'll be back next

01:29:37   week until then say goodbye jason snow goodbye my curly