378: The Maximum Macintosh


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 378.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Things,

00:00:16   Ooni Pizza Ovens, and HPE Tech Talk.

00:00:19   My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:21   Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:22   - Hi, Myke Hurley. - Got a big show today.

00:00:25   - There's a lot happening. There's a lot.

00:00:27   It's busy, busy, busy time, busy time in the busy time

00:00:30   of the busy time.

00:00:31   - Jason has had a 14-inch MacBook Pro for a week,

00:00:35   and we're gonna be talking about it in a little bit.

00:00:38   But we have some things that we must get to first,

00:00:40   including our #snowtalk question,

00:00:42   which this week comes from Mark, who asks,

00:00:44   "Jason, what do you do when you're not really into a book?

00:00:48   Do you persevere and finish it?

00:00:50   Do you put it aside and come back to it later,

00:00:53   or do you just choose to give up and stop reading it?"

00:00:55   - A lot of my friends have various policies.

00:00:58   I'm not quite sure which one is the most common.

00:01:00   There's a 100-page rule. There's a 33% rule,

00:01:03   which is good to do in an e-reader.

00:01:05   That's basically my policy, too,

00:01:08   is that when I get deep in a book,

00:01:10   I will often persevere and finish it.

00:01:13   But I think the most important thing is that

00:01:15   if it's not working for you and you've given it,

00:01:19   you know, enough of an opportunity,

00:01:21   you've given it 100 pages,

00:01:23   or you've read the first third of it,

00:01:25   I think you do need to give yourself an out,

00:01:27   where you say, "If it's not working for me beyond this point,"

00:01:29   and, you know, some people are gonna be like,

00:01:31   "Oh, I do it in the first 10 pages."

00:01:32   Like, okay, well, everybody's gonna be different.

00:01:35   I feel like you need to give a book a little bit of time

00:01:38   before you declare it dead.

00:01:42   But I did have that happen fairly recently,

00:01:44   where I was, yeah, I forget where I was halfway

00:01:47   or a third of the way through the book,

00:01:48   and I just said, "This isn't working for me,"

00:01:49   and I dumped it.

00:01:50   It happens, and it's okay,

00:01:52   'cause life's too short to force yourself to read a book

00:01:55   you're not enjoying.

00:01:56   And I notice it most because they're books that are a slog,

00:02:00   and then I get into a next book, and it just is,

00:02:02   I wanna read it, and I pick it up all the time,

00:02:04   and I'm reading it avidly.

00:02:06   And like, you can tell when you're enjoying a book

00:02:09   and when you're not.

00:02:10   So I would say if you don't have this policy,

00:02:12   you should make this policy.

00:02:13   Set something, 100 pages, 33%, whatever it is, 20%.

00:02:17   And if you're not feeling it and you hit that threshold,

00:02:22   bail out, get out of there.

00:02:24   Don't do it.

00:02:26   'Cause again, I think saying,

00:02:28   "Oh, well, it's a good book after the first 200 pages,

00:02:32   "which are pretty slow, but then it all comes together."

00:02:34   Like, that can be true,

00:02:36   but I would argue it's not true very often,

00:02:39   and that's the book's fault if it's slow for 200 pages

00:02:44   and then it grabs you later that they screwed it up

00:02:46   and they should have grabbed you sooner.

00:02:48   So there are exceptions.

00:02:51   "Dune" just came out.

00:02:53   And my standard review of the book "Dune"

00:02:56   was that the first 200 pages are really slow

00:03:00   and then it picks up and the rest of it is great.

00:03:02   And that's true.

00:03:04   And I was really bored when I read "Dune."

00:03:06   It was the summer, I had nothing to do.

00:03:08   And that's the only way I got through it,

00:03:11   because while that is actually a good book,

00:03:14   it is one that you get about 150 pages in

00:03:19   and you think to yourself, "I've made a terrible mistake."

00:03:21   So these days, I would just,

00:03:25   if it's a random book, book you're not feeling,

00:03:27   just get rid of it, just move on, find something new.

00:03:29   Set a threshold and then when you reach there,

00:03:32   say to yourself, "Do I really wanna go on with this?"

00:03:35   And I would say at any point beyond that threshold,

00:03:36   by the way, if you're just not enjoying a book,

00:03:38   you should just can it and move on.

00:03:40   I mean, you're throwing good money after bad.

00:03:44   That is a sunk cost.

00:03:46   Get out while you can.

00:03:48   - If you'd like to send in a #SNELtalk for us to open

00:03:51   an episode of Upgrade, just send out a tweet

00:03:52   with the #SNELtalk or use ?SNELtalk

00:03:55   in the Relay FM members Discord.

00:03:57   Upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:03:59   We have been selling brand new Upgrade merchandise

00:04:03   for the past week.

00:04:04   Thank you so much to everybody who has bought

00:04:06   either one of our beautiful new Upgrade logo tees

00:04:09   or wonderful hoodies in brand new colors for this season.

00:04:14   Do not forget, you just have one more week to go and buy

00:04:17   your merchandise at upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:04:21   Do not delay, do not be sad, you know, like don't miss out

00:04:24   because once it's gone, it's gone.

00:04:26   Who knows when it will come back if ever?

00:04:28   Upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:04:31   - And this is my independent training company.

00:04:33   This is my favorite hoodie.

00:04:34   I own like six or seven different independent training

00:04:36   company hoodies, unlogoed and a couple with our logo.

00:04:40   - Well, I only have logoed ones 'cause we also use them

00:04:44   for the cortex ones 'cause they're such good hoodies.

00:04:46   - It's a really, I got, this was the first hoodie

00:04:48   that I ever was like, oh, I like hoodies now.

00:04:50   And then I went to their website and literally just bought,

00:04:54   I found they sold direct.

00:04:55   You could just get them blank.

00:04:56   And I was like, yes, send me all your hoodies

00:04:58   because they're so great.

00:04:59   And so when we started doing hoodies for Upgrade,

00:05:01   I said, please, Cotton Bureau,

00:05:03   can we use the independent training company hoodie?

00:05:06   And they said, yes.

00:05:07   By the way, we got a bunch of size questions

00:05:08   and I don't have a great answer other than to say

00:05:12   that I wear an XL t-shirt and an XL hoodie.

00:05:15   So I feel like the sizes match pretty well,

00:05:18   but also it's a hoodie.

00:05:19   So I think I feel like better it be a little bit baggy

00:05:22   than it be too tight.

00:05:24   - I wear large and large and it fits fine for me.

00:05:27   - I think it's a pretty good fit.

00:05:28   - I think they're pretty true to size.

00:05:29   - Maybe that their measurements are,

00:05:31   make people overthink it.

00:05:32   And I think maybe don't worry about that part of it so much.

00:05:35   - Yeah, and all of my hoodies are black.

00:05:37   So I'm really excited.

00:05:38   We've got the red and the gray ones.

00:05:39   I'm gonna be getting one of each

00:05:42   because I wanna mix up my hoodie colors

00:05:44   and I'm very excited.

00:05:45   - So just one last time, upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:05:48   A couple of product rumor-y things

00:05:52   that are going on right now.

00:05:54   I just wanted to get them on the record.

00:05:56   So according to display analyst Ross Young via MacRumors,

00:06:01   Apple is apparently planning to introduce a 27-inch iMac

00:06:05   sometime in early 2022 featuring mini LED and ProMotion.

00:06:10   This has gotta be an iMac Pro, right?

00:06:13   That is not just iMac.

00:06:15   - Well, it might be.

00:06:17   I mean, I think the high-end iMac

00:06:20   is gonna be what it's gonna be.

00:06:22   And I still believe that it's gonna be the one model

00:06:27   and they're gonna choose what to call it.

00:06:28   But it could be that they've decided

00:06:32   they're gonna call it iMac Pro.

00:06:33   I think that would be great.

00:06:34   I think that's what they should do, in fact.

00:06:36   I've been really kind of like back and forth on it.

00:06:39   But when I look at what they've announced

00:06:41   and now having used the M1 Macs and the M1 Pro,

00:06:44   I think about what that iMac might look like.

00:06:47   And I feel like calling it iMac Pro is probably a good idea.

00:06:52   But really the most important thing is

00:06:58   I don't think they're gonna make two separate

00:07:00   27-inch displays for iMacs, right?

00:07:04   Like I think whatever the big iMac is,

00:07:06   there's probably only gonna be one display.

00:07:09   So, and it will probably be mini LED with ProMotion.

00:07:12   So there you go, they can call it Pro or not.

00:07:15   - That's why I think it will be Pro.

00:07:16   'Cause the only place is where this product,

00:07:19   like this screen, the XDR screen, as they call it,

00:07:23   Super Retina XDR, is only in Pro products.

00:07:26   It's in the iPad Pros and the--

00:07:28   - And they have the 24-inch iMac,

00:07:29   which is an M1 and is a good product.

00:07:32   It's a very good product.

00:07:33   And so why not make that bigger iMac Pro?

00:07:36   Again, Pro doesn't necessarily mean what it has to mean

00:07:41   for the Mac Pro, it just means that it's better.

00:07:43   But looking at these chips, it's very hard for me

00:07:46   to not imagine that the bigger iMac isn't gonna have

00:07:50   at the very least an M1 Pro.

00:07:53   - I expect the Macs and Pro chips will only ever exist

00:07:57   in Pro branded products.

00:07:58   That would be my expectation.

00:08:00   - I think that's probably right.

00:08:01   And in fact, I was listening to some speculation,

00:08:03   I think it was on the ATP last week,

00:08:05   that, which I loved, I'm not sure I believe it,

00:08:09   but I want to believe, which is that you might actually

00:08:13   even see the Jade 2C die, which is basically the 20 core,

00:08:18   where it's two M1 Macs together in an iMac.

00:08:23   And I thought that would be awesome.

00:08:28   Not sure that'll happen, but that would be awesome.

00:08:30   - I wanna see if we can try and standardize here, Jason,

00:08:32   'cause it's already getting confusing.

00:08:34   You said M1 Macs, you meant the M1 Macs chip, right?

00:08:37   - I did mean the M1 Macs processor.

00:08:40   - So what I've decided, what I've personally decided,

00:08:43   you can do what you want, but I'm gonna call it--

00:08:46   - Style meeting, everybody, upgrade style meeting,

00:08:48   here we go.

00:08:49   - M1 Macs chip, M1 Pro chip, M1 Macs chip.

00:08:51   - And M1 Macintoshes.

00:08:53   - So that could just be M1 Macs is for M1 Macintoshes,

00:08:57   everyone will know what that means.

00:08:58   M1 Macs chip, M1 Pro chip.

00:09:00   And I think that that works fine because it's impossible.

00:09:04   - I didn't know what you meant when you said M1 Macs.

00:09:06   - It is so bad, it is, okay, so what I'm saying is,

00:09:10   they speculated that you might have an M,

00:09:12   how should I put this, an iMac that has an M1 Macs chip

00:09:19   or potentially the 20 core, which is two of them together,

00:09:26   which has been rumored that they're gonna do a two of them,

00:09:29   two M1 Macs chip configuration and a four M1 Macs chip

00:09:34   configuration, and that's what their Mac Pro solution

00:09:38   is gonna be, but in a desktop, you could potentially do that

00:09:41   in a desktop.

00:09:42   - If they put four M1 Macs chips in one computer,

00:09:45   I'm worried that black holes might start forming.

00:09:48   - Yes, well, it may happen, it may, imagine if,

00:09:52   is a Macintosh with an M1 Macs chip an M1 Mac?

00:09:57   Or is it an M1 Macs Mac?

00:10:01   - It's Macs M1 Mac, if somebody called Mac--

00:10:06   - Who's Mac?

00:10:07   - If somebody called Mac has a Mac, is it Macs M1 Macs Macs?

00:10:11   - That's plural, so it'd be if Mac has more than one Mac,

00:10:18   M1 Macintosh, it's very confusing.

00:10:20   - And Mark Gurman reports that he expects no more events

00:10:25   this year, which I just feel that in my bones,

00:10:28   you know, I just feel like we're done.

00:10:30   - Yes.

00:10:32   - But also that there will be an M2 MacBook Air

00:10:35   with new design, it will be expected sometime in 2022,

00:10:39   Gurman says within six to eight months of now,

00:10:41   so kind of like first half of 2022, along with new Mac Mini

00:10:46   and an iPhone SE expected, as well as that 27 inch iMac.

00:10:51   I think that there is a possibility, right,

00:10:54   that there could be like an event in maybe March, April,

00:10:57   where just all of this stuff comes.

00:10:59   - Yeah.

00:11:01   Yeah, I also anticipate that we'll be getting this stuff,

00:11:05   although again, with the supply chain,

00:11:07   everything could get pushed back,

00:11:10   but you know, what Gurman reports is really sort of like

00:11:13   that these are what are coming,

00:11:14   we know what's in the pipeline,

00:11:16   but we don't know when they'll get out of the pipeline

00:11:18   and into people's hands.

00:11:20   It does seem like a new Mac Mini that's using these chips

00:11:25   is probably on the way, but my guess is that they wanted

00:11:31   to have all the chips for the laptops,

00:11:34   that they'll worry about the Mac Mini later.

00:11:37   - I hadn't thought of that, but yeah,

00:11:38   maybe they were just like, we're gonna prioritize here

00:11:41   'cause we're, you know, all of the,

00:11:43   there are reports saying that basically Apple's struggling

00:11:45   with everything over the holiday season,

00:11:49   so they may have just wanted to prioritize

00:11:51   what will be a better selling product

00:11:53   and a product people are more excited about

00:11:55   than if they just then had, you know,

00:11:57   a bunch of the putting in the M1,

00:11:58   they're just splitting what they have

00:11:59   amongst their product line and surely, you know,

00:12:02   I would expect make more money from the laptops

00:12:05   than they would the Mac Mini anyway, so.

00:12:07   - Yeah, exactly right.

00:12:08   So I think that now that we've seen the new chips here,

00:12:13   it is fascinating to think of like the details

00:12:16   of where they're all gonna go

00:12:17   and especially about that Mac Pro out there,

00:12:19   if they really do just have the ability

00:12:21   to take two or four M1 Macs chips

00:12:25   and put them in a configuration together,

00:12:27   like you can imagine what that performance would be like,

00:12:31   it would be pretty amazing.

00:12:32   - So both iOS 15.1 and macOS Monterey

00:12:36   are expected to be out today.

00:12:38   We're not really gonna spend any time

00:12:40   talking about them on this episode.

00:12:41   - Can't wait to use that universal control.

00:12:44   Nope. - Share play?

00:12:45   - Maybe not and share play, yeah, not yet.

00:12:48   - Not yet.

00:12:50   - Next week, we're gonna be talking about Apple's earnings

00:12:54   'cause that's happening this week on the 28th.

00:12:56   - Thursday, yeah.

00:12:57   - So that's gonna be a part of what I expect

00:12:59   is gonna be a pretty bumper episode next week

00:13:01   because we are also gonna be joined by friends of the show,

00:13:05   Tim Millet and Tom Boger from Apple

00:13:07   and we're gonna be talking about the M1 Pro

00:13:09   and M1 Macs chips.

00:13:11   So we've had Tim and Tom on a couple of times now

00:13:14   and we always really enjoy talking to them

00:13:16   and we always talk about Apple Silicon

00:13:19   when we've had them on before.

00:13:21   We had a really great chat a couple of months,

00:13:23   oh, it's in November, oh man, a couple of months ago

00:13:25   I was gonna say, a year ago.

00:13:26   - It was November. - In November 2020.

00:13:29   Oh my word, what just happened to my brain?

00:13:31   So they're gonna be coming back on

00:13:32   and we're gonna be talking about

00:13:34   all of the new Apple Silicon and what it took

00:13:37   to build these incredibly powerful new chips.

00:13:40   So that's gonna be next week's episode.

00:13:42   - Chip Talk with Tim and Tom next week.

00:13:44   - Oh, I love it, I love it.

00:13:45   - I got three little pieces of upstream headlines

00:13:49   for you, Jason. - Okay.

00:13:50   - Mythic Quest has been renewed for two more seasons.

00:13:53   - Yeah, there was a question about like,

00:13:54   they didn't announce what they were doing

00:13:56   after they released season two

00:13:58   and season two ends with the feeling

00:14:02   that it could be the end of the show.

00:14:03   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:05   - And they made no announcements about it

00:14:08   and people were speculating if it was canceled or not

00:14:10   and the people who make it have been busy

00:14:13   doing other stuff too.

00:14:15   But it is renewed for two more seasons

00:14:17   and they put out a fantastic video

00:14:20   to announce the renewal. - It's so good.

00:14:21   I put a link in the show notes to a Vulture article

00:14:23   that has this embedded.

00:14:25   You gotta go watch the video.

00:14:27   It is weird and excellent.

00:14:31   It must, I mean, I see this and it's like,

00:14:33   Rob McElhenny came up with this.

00:14:34   Like, there's no way anybody else came up with this video.

00:14:38   It's really worth watching if you haven't seen it.

00:14:40   - Yep.

00:14:41   - And I was also told about this information

00:14:44   during the Ted Lasso season two recap episode

00:14:47   of The Incomparable that I joined you

00:14:49   and a wonderful panel on which people can go check out,

00:14:52   that Jason Segel and Brett Goldstein,

00:14:55   teaming up with Bill Lawrence for a new comedy show

00:14:58   on Apple TV Plus, and it's about, it's called Shrinking

00:15:03   and this is a quote,

00:15:04   it revolves around a grieving therapist played by Segal

00:15:08   who begins to break the rules and tell his clients

00:15:10   exactly what he thinks, ignoring his training and ethics.

00:15:13   He finds himself making huge changes to people's lives,

00:15:17   including his own.

00:15:19   So it seems like Apple is on the Lawrence Goldstein train.

00:15:24   - Yeah, yeah, so this is Brett Goldstein

00:15:25   and Bill Lawrence writing and Jason Segal starring

00:15:28   in this comedy on Apple TV Plus.

00:15:30   So for those who thought that Brett Goldstein

00:15:33   was having a moment, yeah.

00:15:35   - Big moment, he just became a show creator.

00:15:38   It's like, it's a big moment.

00:15:39   - Just on the side.

00:15:41   - Yeah.

00:15:42   - Now I make my own shows, incredible.

00:15:45   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you in part

00:15:47   by our friends over at Ooni Pizza Ovens.

00:15:50   They are the world's number one pizza oven company

00:15:52   because they make surprisingly small ovens

00:15:54   powered by your choice of either wood, charcoal or gas,

00:15:58   letting you make restaurant quality pizza

00:16:00   in your own backyard, like the Snell backyard, right?

00:16:03   That's what pizza's made in the Snell backyard

00:16:04   of an Ooni Pizza Oven. - It is, it is.

00:16:06   Although we had a lot of rain,

00:16:07   so I had to hide the Ooni Pizza Oven

00:16:09   so it wouldn't be washed away in the floods, but yeah.

00:16:11   - That would be very upsetting.

00:16:13   - Lives in the backyard, yeah.

00:16:15   - Came out, just gone.

00:16:17   You know, I can imagine you falling down to your knees,

00:16:19   like, no, 'cause you love your Ooni pizzas, right?

00:16:22   - That's, you know, it's nice to be able to make a pizza

00:16:26   and get that temperature that's way higher

00:16:29   than you can get in the oven in your house.

00:16:31   You know, it's like 500 degrees in my house

00:16:33   and it's like 750 degrees outside there

00:16:36   in the Ooni Pizza Oven.

00:16:37   - You can actually get it up to 900 if you really want.

00:16:39   - You can, I'm not that patient.

00:16:40   I get it to about 750, 770, and then in it goes.

00:16:44   - Pizza's going in. - 'Cause I can't wait anymore.

00:16:45   Yeah, can't wait anymore.

00:16:47   - 900 degrees Fahrenheit, 500 degrees Celsius,

00:16:49   that's what you can get an Ooni Pizza Oven up to.

00:16:51   This enables you to cook that restaurant quality pizza

00:16:53   in as little as 60 seconds.

00:16:55   That high temperature really sets it apart

00:16:57   from what you can make in a home oven.

00:16:59   But these Ooni Pizza Ovens are really easy to use

00:17:01   and incredibly portable.

00:17:03   They'll fit into any outside space.

00:17:05   They have a couple of models that people really love.

00:17:07   One is the Ooni Koda 16.

00:17:09   This will let you cook up to 16 inch pizzas

00:17:11   with an innovative L-shaped burner

00:17:13   to give you even heat distribution.

00:17:15   And the multi-fueled Ooni Karu,

00:17:17   which you can choose to use wood, charcoal, or gas.

00:17:20   Ooni Pizza Ovens start at just $299

00:17:23   for free shipping to the US, the UK, and the EU.

00:17:26   And Ooni also make a great app

00:17:28   to help you perfect your dough recipe

00:17:29   and give you loads of pizza making tips as well.

00:17:32   Listeners of Upgrade can get 10% off their purchase

00:17:35   of an Ooni Pizza Oven,

00:17:36   which could be up to $50 off an Ooni Koda 16.

00:17:39   Just go to Ooni.com, that's O-O-N-I dot com,

00:17:43   and use the code UPGRADEFM21 at checkout.

00:17:47   When you're there, you'll find a great range of accessories

00:17:49   from peels to cutters to oven tables.

00:17:51   These things are always incredibly popular in high demand,

00:17:54   so make sure you go and check it out right now.

00:17:56   Don't miss out.

00:17:57   Ooni Pizza Ovens are the best way

00:17:59   to bring restaurant quality pizza to your own backyard.

00:18:01   Just go to Ooni.com and use the code UPGRADEFM21

00:18:05   to get that 10% off.

00:18:07   Our thanks to Ooni Pizza Ovens

00:18:08   for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:18:10   So, Jason Snell, you published a wonderful review,

00:18:16   six colors, about the 14 inch MacBook Pro.

00:18:20   Could you just tell me the specs of the machine

00:18:22   that you have, just for context?

00:18:24   - It's the maximum Macintosh, Myke, with the--

00:18:29   - The maximum Macintosh with the M1 Macintosh maximum chip.

00:18:33   - Yes, exactly.

00:18:34   So it's a 14 inch M1 Macs chip,

00:18:39   64 gigs of memory, 32 GPU cores.

00:18:44   So all of the things.

00:18:45   Yeah.

00:18:47   - Couple of little quotes from the article in the beginning

00:18:50   that I really like.

00:18:51   You call this a new era and say that Apple

00:18:54   has undone its mistakes of the past few years

00:18:57   and created a laptop.

00:18:58   And this is my favorite part.

00:19:00   That's essentially a Mac Pro you can slide into a backpack.

00:19:03   - It's so good, Jason, that I know exactly what you mean.

00:19:06   And it makes me so excited.

00:19:08   - I kept looking at the test results

00:19:10   and thinking of how to put it in.

00:19:12   'Cause like there's the perspective versus a,

00:19:15   like I have an iMac Pro.

00:19:17   So that's sort of a proxy for the Mac Pro.

00:19:20   Mac Pro is more than the iMac Pro,

00:19:21   but I don't have a Mac Pro.

00:19:24   I have an M1 MacBook Air, right?

00:19:26   And so I'm trying to think of the performance,

00:19:29   but the truth is it is essentially

00:19:33   Mac Pro level performance.

00:19:34   And we can debate, is it like the eight, 10, 12, 14, 16.

00:19:39   I don't know how many cores you have.

00:19:40   There are lots of different core options in the Mac Pro,

00:19:43   but like this is in the ballpark of Mac Pro speed

00:19:47   in the Intel Mac Pro.

00:19:49   And obviously Mac Pro speed is going to be redefined

00:19:51   when they do an Apple Silicon Mac Pro.

00:19:53   There's no doubt about it.

00:19:54   If you imagine that it could potentially be as much

00:19:56   as four times faster than this laptop.

00:19:59   But it is the, for now,

00:20:04   the equivalent of basically a Mac Pro that you,

00:20:07   and a Pro, a small Pro Display XDR

00:20:11   that you can just close up and put in a bag

00:20:13   and walk around and use anywhere on a battery.

00:20:16   And that's really what it is.

00:20:19   - And it's incredible.

00:20:20   I mean, look, I don't think it matters

00:20:22   which Mac Pro you're comparing it to.

00:20:25   It doesn't matter in my eyes, right?

00:20:27   Like if it gets to any Mac Pro, that is a huge deal.

00:20:31   This is a laptop.

00:20:33   This is a 14 inch laptop.

00:20:34   - Yeah, yeah.

00:20:36   And I'll point out too, for those who,

00:20:38   I think we mentioned it last time, but like you,

00:20:40   the specs in my 14 inch in front of me

00:20:43   are the same as the max specs in the, sorry,

00:20:46   that's maximum specs in the 16 inch laptop.

00:20:51   There isn't a bigger configuration

00:20:53   that's only in the larger, which I love

00:20:55   because not everybody wants a larger laptop,

00:20:58   even if they want more power.

00:20:59   So there is no difference there, but you're right.

00:21:01   Once you're in the zone where Mac Pros live,

00:21:06   you are bringing Mac Pro performance.

00:21:08   And no, not for everything and not in every way,

00:21:12   and not if you've got a high-end configuration

00:21:14   of the Intel Mac Pro.

00:21:17   Like there are some footnotes that you could put in here,

00:21:20   but in the broadest sense,

00:21:25   this is basically what we think of now

00:21:28   as Mac Pro performance in this laptop.

00:21:30   That's what it is.

00:21:31   - I wonder if like, just as a curiosity,

00:21:35   if the 16 may bench higher

00:21:39   on sustained loads of cooling stuff.

00:21:43   - It may, it's got, I mean, it's got more power coming in,

00:21:46   although I think that's more for the battery.

00:21:49   They've talked about how there's going to be

00:21:51   a high energy mode on the 16.

00:21:55   - High performance mode, is that what it's called?

00:21:57   - Sure, okay. - Or something like that?

00:21:59   - Whatever, it's the max power, maximum power.

00:22:02   - Maximum power for the maximum max.

00:22:04   - For the maximum Macintosh max chip.

00:22:07   So yes, I wonder if there will be a little bit of that

00:22:11   so that the absolute like highest sustained performance

00:22:16   or something like that is in the 16,

00:22:17   but it's, we're splitting hairs at that point.

00:22:21   And if you care enough, then you'll care enough about that.

00:22:25   You'll care enough to do a 16.

00:22:26   I mean, I'll tell you using Final Cut Pro

00:22:29   on a 14 inch display,

00:22:30   when I'm used to using it on a 27 inch display,

00:22:33   I could see how you might want the 16 inch display, right?

00:22:36   Like 14 inch Final Cut Pro,

00:22:39   you're like looking at the pixels of the video

00:22:40   and you're like, I don't know if I can,

00:22:42   like you really kind of want to attach that

00:22:44   to an external monitor

00:22:45   so that you can do a full preview of the video.

00:22:47   And like it is still a laptop screen.

00:22:49   It's an amazing laptop screen, but it's still 14 inches.

00:22:52   So if you're the kind of person who needs that level of power

00:22:55   you may also really want the, and prefer the 16 inch.

00:22:59   And again, even though that's a bigger and heavier laptop,

00:23:01   you're getting a Mac Pro that you can carry around.

00:23:05   So that's pretty good.

00:23:06   - While we're on this, before we get into anything else,

00:23:08   we should probably, I think we should just continue

00:23:10   talking about benchmarks and stuff.

00:23:12   You did a selection of benchmarks, Geekbench benchmarks,

00:23:16   Xcode, Final Cut, and isotope denoising,

00:23:19   and some disk read and write.

00:23:21   The disk read and write was the one

00:23:22   that surprised me the most.

00:23:25   - Well, Apple mentioned it and then they kind of go on.

00:23:27   And the way I put it was in this,

00:23:30   even in this era of SSDs, right?

00:23:33   Like we had that moment where we all transitioned

00:23:35   from spinning disk to solid state.

00:23:37   And it's that moment where for me, at least,

00:23:40   it was the never go back moment.

00:23:41   It was when I got a MacBook Air with an SSD in it

00:23:43   and it was like, oh.

00:23:45   And the truth is having covered computers for 20 years

00:23:50   or more, it's more now, it has always been the case.

00:23:56   If not all the time, most of the time,

00:24:00   and the eras come and go where we get so focused

00:24:04   on the computer chips and we forget about the storage.

00:24:07   And so often the storage is the thing that slows us down,

00:24:11   not the CPU.

00:24:12   It's not that you're waiting for your CPU

00:24:14   to grind through calculations.

00:24:16   It's that you're waiting for the result of the calculations

00:24:18   to get saved to the disk and you wait and wait and wait.

00:24:21   And that was true in the spinning disk era.

00:24:23   But the truth is we got lots of data.

00:24:25   SSD speed is now also a thing that you can think about.

00:24:30   And SSDs in general are amazing,

00:24:34   but I'll tell you doing a save of a big media file

00:24:40   on this MacBook Pro was breathtaking

00:24:44   because the write speed was three times almost as fast

00:24:49   as either my MacBook Air or my iMac Pro SSD.

00:24:55   And that's because this is a new generation of SSDs

00:25:00   and it's a lot faster.

00:25:05   And you can tell, there are moments, right?

00:25:08   I mean, there are moments that are constrained

00:25:09   by the processor where you click a certain thing

00:25:11   or you do a certain thing from menu and you're like,

00:25:14   okay, now the processor is gonna chug for a while.

00:25:17   And then there are those things you do

00:25:18   and it's usually like save.

00:25:21   Like I'm gonna save this audio file

00:25:22   and it's a three hour long uncompressed audio file.

00:25:26   And what it needs to do is it needs to write out

00:25:28   the new file while reading the data

00:25:31   from either memory or from disk.

00:25:32   And it's like a disk based thing.

00:25:35   And you do that on the MacBook Pro and you go,

00:25:38   oh, that progress bar moved way faster

00:25:43   than I expected it to.

00:25:44   And that happened a lot.

00:25:45   So like my test in here of iZotope, DeNoise,

00:25:48   which is interesting because it's an Intel test,

00:25:50   it's running in Rosetta and it matched to the second,

00:25:54   the score of my iMac Pro,

00:25:56   which I'll point out in Rosetta,

00:26:00   it matched the score of my iMac Pro.

00:26:02   What I didn't mention is the amount of time

00:26:06   when I press save and I should have measured it

00:26:09   'cause that wasn't close at all.

00:26:11   - Oh wow.

00:26:12   - Press save and the iMac's like, okay, all right,

00:26:15   I guess I'll save this now.

00:26:16   And the Mac Pro is like saved, amazing.

00:26:20   - I have a theory about that iZotope thing.

00:26:23   I wonder if that's just the maximum speed

00:26:25   that app can work at.

00:26:27   (laughing)

00:26:28   'Cause it's too weird to me.

00:26:30   - No faster, I can't go any faster than this.

00:26:32   - It doesn't really make sense why it would be

00:26:34   exactly the same result as the iMac Pro?

00:26:37   - I think it's just luck, honestly.

00:26:39   I think it's just luck, but it is remarkable

00:26:41   that it's getting that speed in Rosetta

00:26:44   because of course iZotope still hasn't done a native version

00:26:49   but it is, this is why, by the way,

00:26:51   that little chart is why I still use an iMac Pro

00:26:55   and haven't switched to an M1 Mac to do my job

00:26:57   is that you can see that the M1 takes twice as long

00:27:01   to do that job as my iMac Pro because of Rosetta.

00:27:06   But the MacBook Pro basically has caught up

00:27:09   even though it's emulating and translating that code.

00:27:12   But yeah, some of the other,

00:27:14   like the disk writes and reads are all faster.

00:27:18   I did a Final Cut Pro export where I set a project

00:27:20   to Steven Hackett on his 12 core Mac Pro

00:27:23   and it was faster, but not a lot faster, but faster,

00:27:27   like 30 seconds faster at doing that export

00:27:30   and a lot faster than the computers that I had here to test.

00:27:34   And James Thompson sent me his,

00:27:36   he actually sent me last November and I've kept it,

00:27:39   but I forgot the password,

00:27:40   so he had to tell me the password again,

00:27:42   the crown jewels of the Dice by Pcalc 2.0 source code.

00:27:47   And that was 18 seconds to build it

00:27:52   versus 30 seconds on the M1 Air

00:27:55   and 36 seconds on the iMac Pro.

00:27:57   So a lot faster.

00:27:59   I know the developers out there basically

00:28:01   going from an eight core iMac Pro to this MacBook Pro

00:28:04   half the time to do a build in Xcode.

00:28:07   - There's nothing in this list that I'm not surprised about.

00:28:11   Like every single one of these,

00:28:14   it's like I expected it all to be really, really good,

00:28:17   but like the GPU score,

00:28:20   66,688, just like crushing the iMac Pro.

00:28:25   - Yeah, and again,

00:28:28   I don't have a Mac Pro with the highest test GPU.

00:28:32   I should call up John Syracuse and say,

00:28:35   run the metal test in Geekbench and tell me what you get.

00:28:37   And it may be better, but again, this is a laptop.

00:28:40   - This is a laptop.

00:28:41   - Yeah.

00:28:42   - This is a machine that can produce those scores on battery.

00:28:45   - Yeah, that's really the thing here is that

00:28:48   I'm sure we're gonna get those stories.

00:28:50   You know how sometimes I predict the stories

00:28:51   that we're gonna get?

00:28:52   Like it was clear that the M1 was gonna have the backlash

00:28:55   where people were like,

00:28:56   yeah, but it isn't as good as this professional system.

00:28:58   It's like, it's not a professional system.

00:29:00   We're gonna get the, well, yeah,

00:29:01   but it's not as good as this high-end desktop computer.

00:29:05   And we're gonna say, well, yeah, but it's a laptop.

00:29:09   And that's the point.

00:29:10   Like Apple still hasn't done

00:29:11   their high-end desktop computers, right?

00:29:13   They still haven't gone there yet,

00:29:15   but we now have the high-end laptop

00:29:16   and we can see that the high-end laptop

00:29:18   is as functional basically as their old high-end desktops

00:29:21   were, which is a pretty good trick.

00:29:23   - I just feel like we are in a once in a generation

00:29:28   kind of leap at the moment.

00:29:30   Like it really like this doesn't come along

00:29:32   very often kind of leap.

00:29:34   - Yeah, no, this is that processor transition thing

00:29:37   where everything is gonna, the M1 did it.

00:29:39   Now we're still in that.

00:29:40   And we're gonna be in it again

00:29:42   when they do these rumored 20 and 40 core things.

00:29:45   Like that's gonna be the era where every,

00:29:47   if you compare like to like previous generation

00:29:51   to current generation,

00:29:53   where you're gonna see these enormous jumps.

00:29:55   - Yeah.

00:29:56   - And that's, and also, it's not all performance

00:29:59   because some of it is the power thing

00:30:01   and Apple likes its power efficiency charts and all that,

00:30:04   but it's true.

00:30:05   That's part of it too,

00:30:06   is that they either can fit inside the envelope of a laptop

00:30:11   with that kind of power because of the,

00:30:13   because they are not using as much energy

00:30:16   and throwing off as much heat.

00:30:18   That's part of the story too.

00:30:21   And then the battery life ends up being extended

00:30:25   because of that.

00:30:26   - You said in the review that in most instances

00:30:29   you were just using the efficiency cores though, right?

00:30:31   Which I found really interesting.

00:30:33   - Well, when you're doing like computer stuff

00:30:36   and not pro work, right?

00:30:38   Where I'm hammering the GPU, I'm exporting video,

00:30:41   I'm processing multiple audio streams, all of those things.

00:30:44   When I'm just looking at the web and checking email,

00:30:48   activity monitor showed that basically,

00:30:50   'cause remember it only has two efficiency cores,

00:30:52   it doesn't have four.

00:30:53   So there's this concern that maybe that means

00:30:55   that it's gonna have to use those performance cores

00:30:57   and it's gonna be a hit to battery life.

00:30:59   The truth is Apple, I think profiled regular use

00:31:04   and figured that for this chip,

00:31:05   they could get away with two efficiency cores

00:31:07   and then they spike a performance core

00:31:09   kind of when they need to.

00:31:11   And maybe we'll talk about this with Tim and Tom next week.

00:31:14   - Yes, we're gonna bring it up

00:31:15   'cause I'm really interested about that.

00:31:17   In my kind of regular use, those performance cores

00:31:22   would light up every now and then briefly

00:31:26   and then they would stop.

00:31:27   But most of the work was happening on the efficiency cores.

00:31:30   And I think Apple would make the point

00:31:32   that the performance cores are still pretty efficient

00:31:35   and the efficiency cores have a lot of performance

00:31:38   so they can get away with it.

00:31:41   And in practical terms, the battery life,

00:31:43   I didn't do any battery testing in part

00:31:45   because I had a limited amount of time

00:31:46   to do everything that I needed to do for these systems.

00:31:48   And also to do a battery test,

00:31:50   you basically have to run it constantly

00:31:52   for a very long time.

00:31:54   And I had a hard time draining this battery at all.

00:31:59   It was really hard because you really need to use it

00:32:02   extensively and push it all day

00:32:08   to really make a dent on it.

00:32:09   And I was not able to do that amount of work.

00:32:13   So the battery life is gonna be pretty good.

00:32:15   And a bunch of people asked about the fans.

00:32:17   Fan sound is gonna be different for everybody,

00:32:20   sensitivity for fan sound.

00:32:22   I used to use MacBook Airs that blew those fans

00:32:24   whenever you did anything and it was unpleasant.

00:32:29   I think Apple's fan design has gotten better lately.

00:32:33   The fans in my iMac Pro are silent.

00:32:36   I cannot tell that they're blowing.

00:32:38   I have to stick, I literally stick my hand back

00:32:40   behind my iMac to the vent and I'm like,

00:32:43   oh yeah, warm air is coming out now.

00:32:45   That's it, I can't tell.

00:32:47   This, you can hear the fan.

00:32:49   It was hard for me to get the fans to be audible.

00:32:53   I had to really work at it.

00:32:54   I had to do a GPU benchmark that pushed the GPU

00:32:58   as far as it could go.

00:33:00   So it's sort of like, it's a laptop.

00:33:02   The bottom gets a little bit warm and then the fan comes on.

00:33:05   I'd say the fan is very slow, or not very slow.

00:33:08   The fan is very quiet.

00:33:10   And it was hard for me to get it on at all.

00:33:14   But everybody's gonna be different

00:33:15   in terms of their sensitivity

00:33:17   and in terms of what they do for their job.

00:33:18   But I don't think fan noise is gonna be an issue.

00:33:20   I don't think this is gonna be like one of those

00:33:23   latter day iMacs with the bad cooling system

00:33:26   where they would stick an i9 in there,

00:33:28   but they didn't have the iMac Pro cooling system.

00:33:29   And so the fans would just be,

00:33:30   (imitates fan)

00:33:32   in order to cool it all down.

00:33:34   I think we're in a different era in terms of cooling

00:33:37   and that Apple's fan game is much better than that.

00:33:40   So it was not audible, I would say, but not annoying.

00:33:44   And even when it was audible was super rare.

00:33:47   - I've only ever heard the fans on my iMac,

00:33:50   my M1 iMac, like once.

00:33:53   And it surprised me

00:33:56   'cause I didn't know what the noise was.

00:33:58   - Ah. (laughs)

00:33:59   - 'Cause I hadn't heard it because I never hear them.

00:34:02   - This is, I mean, it is a podcast,

00:34:03   but I'll just say if I can do this myself,

00:34:05   I would say, I feel like the difference is between a,

00:34:08   (imitates fan)

00:34:10   and a,

00:34:11   (imitates fan)

00:34:13   that's sort of, that's my little ASMR for today.

00:34:16   - Very nice.

00:34:17   - It's not, Apple has done a lot of work

00:34:19   on making the fans seem less annoying,

00:34:24   but again, it was also hard for me to kick them in at all.

00:34:26   So I think they did a pretty good job with it.

00:34:28   And keep in mind, I have the highest, the maximum,

00:34:32   - Maximum chip.

00:34:34   - Maximum max chip.

00:34:36   Yes.

00:34:37   - How does it feel to hold?

00:34:39   Like, what does it, how does it feel when you're using it?

00:34:41   What do you think of the looks of this machine?

00:34:44   Like, I'm intrigued.

00:34:46   - It's different.

00:34:47   It reminds me of the titanium from 20 years ago

00:34:50   in that the screen is, the back of the screen is flat.

00:34:54   You know, the aluminum laptops have had this,

00:34:58   a little bit of a curve to them

00:35:01   that is more pronounced at the edges,

00:35:03   but it's like a little, a little domey.

00:35:06   And this is not like that.

00:35:08   This is a flat edge or a flat side.

00:35:11   And then at the edge, at the back of the screen,

00:35:13   a very tight curve.

00:35:15   And then of course it's got the round,

00:35:16   you know, it's got the rounded edges.

00:35:18   When you look at it from top down, the corners are rounded,

00:35:22   but the actual edges are much kind of like tighter.

00:35:24   The curves are pulled in much tighter.

00:35:26   They're not like 90 degree angles, right?

00:35:28   Where it's gonna, you're gonna cut yourself on the,

00:35:31   on the outside.

00:35:32   On the inside, they are more 90 degree angle-ish,

00:35:35   although they're not sharp and it's not gonna bother me.

00:35:37   But on the outside, they're tighter, I would say.

00:35:42   And so it definitely feels different.

00:35:43   Also, when you pick it up, you will feel,

00:35:46   as you pick it up, you will feel,

00:35:47   I didn't mention this in the review,

00:35:48   but you can feel the slots 'cause the cooling vents

00:35:53   are right there on the sides at the bottom.

00:35:57   And so when you pick it up, you will actually feel the vents.

00:36:01   They're right there.

00:36:03   - That's not been a thing for a while, right?

00:36:04   I didn't even really think about those vents.

00:36:07   - Yeah, well, they're right there.

00:36:09   You can feel them.

00:36:10   They're noticeable when you pick it up.

00:36:11   I mean, you get used to it,

00:36:12   but it's a different kind of feel.

00:36:15   And, you know, I think it looks great.

00:36:17   It is different, not too different.

00:36:19   I think Apple still struggles with the fact that they feel

00:36:22   that they can basically, they nailed it

00:36:23   and they know what a laptop should look like.

00:36:26   And they don't wanna change just for novelty.

00:36:28   They're like, they kinda, they figure they kinda got it.

00:36:31   And when I did 20 Max for 2020 last year,

00:36:33   one of the things I said was that the titanium

00:36:35   was sort of like Apple's first moment of like,

00:36:38   oh yeah, silver metallic laptop, this is what we need to do.

00:36:41   And then they've iterated on that somewhat.

00:36:43   This is the biggest change I think in quite a while.

00:36:46   It's not that big a change,

00:36:47   but I think it's the biggest change in quite a while

00:36:49   in that they've changed those curves and those edges

00:36:53   and made something that, like,

00:36:57   for years now you've been able to look at a Mac laptop

00:37:00   closed on a table somewhere

00:37:02   and not really been able to detect,

00:37:04   unless you look at the ports or something,

00:37:06   what year it's from, or if it's space gray

00:37:08   and you know that they used to not make space gray,

00:37:10   whatever it is, right?

00:37:11   But my point is that in the last 10 years,

00:37:14   a random Apple laptop, especially a random MacBook Pro,

00:37:18   would just, they all look kinda the same, right?

00:37:22   And that's what I will say about this one,

00:37:25   is you could pick it out.

00:37:27   Like in a crowd of Mac laptops from the last 10 years,

00:37:30   you see this one, you're like, oh, that's different.

00:37:32   That's not like these others.

00:37:33   It is absolutely noticeable that it's not the same.

00:37:37   And to me, closed, it's because of that flatness of the top.

00:37:42   It is striking when you see it.

00:37:46   Now, whether people like it or not, I don't know.

00:37:48   It's different.

00:37:50   I think it's fun because it's different

00:37:51   and therefore novel.

00:37:55   In the long run, I guess everybody's gonna make up

00:37:58   their own mind about how they feel about how they look.

00:38:00   - To think about the weight and size of the machine,

00:38:03   it is significantly heavier than the machine

00:38:07   that replaces the 14.

00:38:08   I know you don't have a 13 inch MacBook Pro there.

00:38:10   - I don't.

00:38:11   I would say as a MacBook Air user,

00:38:13   I did not feel like I was super burdened by using it.

00:38:18   It's a bigger laptop than my Air, obviously.

00:38:24   But it's also a Mac Pro, right?

00:38:27   So, and the screen is amazing.

00:38:29   So I'm gonna, again, I can't say if somebody's carrying

00:38:33   a 13 inch MacBook Pro with four ports around now

00:38:35   and they replace it with this,

00:38:37   I can't make a judgment on how they're gonna feel.

00:38:41   My guess is that it's not gonna matter

00:38:43   because even if it's a little bit heavier,

00:38:45   it's got that great performance and the great battery life.

00:38:49   And so it doesn't matter.

00:38:50   But for me, I was surprised that I didn't have as much

00:38:53   of the, "Oh, these big laptops kind of feel," as I did.

00:38:57   Like when we did our thing where I went to New York

00:39:01   and I got the 16 inch MacBook Pro two years ago,

00:39:04   that's a beast.

00:39:07   Like I was like, "Oh, this giant laptop, oh."

00:39:10   And I had to like put it in my bag to carry it home

00:39:12   on the plane and like, it was like, "This is so huge."

00:39:15   I don't feel that way about the 14 inch.

00:39:17   It's good.

00:39:20   - You mentioned the screen.

00:39:21   Let's talk about the screen.

00:39:22   What has been your impression so far with the new display?

00:39:25   - You know, in another device,

00:39:28   the screen would be the story, right?

00:39:30   Like the keyboard used to be the story.

00:39:31   The keyboard's not the story anymore.

00:39:32   The keyboard is, we haven't talked about it yet.

00:39:35   We'll talk about it.

00:39:36   It's kind of boring, which in a good way, in the best way.

00:39:39   The screen would be the story

00:39:42   if it weren't for those chips, right?

00:39:44   'Cause the screen, okay, first off,

00:39:46   it is extended dynamic range, mini LED backlight.

00:39:51   It is a beautiful screen.

00:39:55   It looks great.

00:39:56   It looks great in the dark.

00:39:57   It looks great in dark mode.

00:39:59   It looks great with photos.

00:40:00   It is, like there were moments

00:40:04   where I would be using the laptop

00:40:06   and I would get a glimpse of my desktop background.

00:40:09   I'd be like, "Oh, right.

00:40:11   "Oh, this is a much better screen

00:40:15   "than the one I'm used to using."

00:40:17   Very impressive.

00:40:20   The ProMotion is a mixed bag.

00:40:24   Now you and I have gone back and forth

00:40:25   about ProMotion on the iPhone.

00:40:28   - You enjoy it on the iPad, right?

00:40:30   So like, you say you might notice it there.

00:40:32   So in theory, you're more primed for this one than me even.

00:40:35   - And on the iPhone, my feeling is more just

00:40:38   that I prefer the smaller phone to ProMotion

00:40:41   if I have to choose, which I do, so I did.

00:40:43   But it's a nice feature.

00:40:46   On the Mac, what I would say is it's a mixed bag

00:40:48   mostly because the software support isn't there.

00:40:52   It feels to me like a lot of software support,

00:40:54   third-party apps, but also some system stuff

00:40:57   is still not there.

00:40:58   I was trying to take for our friend, friend of the show,

00:41:01   James Thompson, wanted me to do a capture

00:41:03   of his dice app running at 120 frames per second

00:41:07   on the Mac, and I used, you know,

00:41:11   Command + Shift + 5 to do that.

00:41:14   And it gave me a movie that ran

00:41:15   at less than 60 frames per second.

00:41:18   It's like, what are you doing?

00:41:20   I'm at 120 now.

00:41:21   It's like, well, that system image capture thing

00:41:24   doesn't want to do that.

00:41:25   Okay, probably should look at that, Apple.

00:41:28   But this is true throughout where there are apps

00:41:32   and all the Catalyst apps get it, right?

00:41:34   Because all the Catalyst apps

00:41:35   already had to do this for the iPad.

00:41:37   - Right, so that's the difference, right?

00:41:39   Like this is all much better handled

00:41:42   if you're using the iOS set of technologies

00:41:44   than the macOS set of technologies.

00:41:47   - Right, and it's not that you can't do it on the Mac,

00:41:49   it's that the Mac stuff hasn't had to be adapted for it yet,

00:41:51   and the iPad stuff has.

00:41:54   And so you open a Catalyst app and you scroll,

00:41:57   and it's this super smooth scroll.

00:42:00   You open some Mac apps and you scroll,

00:42:02   and it's just like, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh,

00:42:04   right, because they have made no effort

00:42:06   to use the enhanced frame rate.

00:42:08   And you can argue like, do you need the buttery scrolling?

00:42:11   Well, the answer is you got 120 hertz display.

00:42:14   - So yes. - You should use

00:42:14   the buttery scrolling.

00:42:16   You should do that.

00:42:16   - And it's not that it's worse, right?

00:42:18   Like it hasn't made it worse,

00:42:20   it's just you're not getting the great benefit.

00:42:22   - No, the truth is just in some apps,

00:42:24   it's super smooth scrolling and stuff,

00:42:26   and in other apps, it's not.

00:42:28   It's like every other Mac that's ever existed before now.

00:42:31   And so what I'm really saying is

00:42:34   it's gonna take a little bit of time for Mac software

00:42:38   to get to wrap its head around the idea

00:42:41   that it now has 120 hertz display built into a computer.

00:42:45   It's not like the Mac couldn't output it on 120 hertz before,

00:42:49   but it matters more now

00:42:51   that you're just selling laptops that have that.

00:42:54   And it is nicer.

00:42:55   Like again, is it a big deal that in BB edit,

00:43:00   when I scroll, it's a little chunky,

00:43:02   and that in this random catalyst text editor

00:43:05   that comes from iOS, that it is smooth?

00:43:08   In the end, it doesn't matter,

00:43:10   but it's now so fundamentally part of,

00:43:13   I think as of today, part of the Mac experience,

00:43:17   and every pro laptop probably from here on out

00:43:19   will always have this feature,

00:43:21   that if you make a pro app or really an app on the Mac,

00:43:25   you should do whatever work needs to be done

00:43:28   to take advantage of that frame rate.

00:43:32   - What do you think about the notch?

00:43:34   (laughing)

00:43:36   - You know, the notch,

00:43:40   everybody, when that rumor came out that was right,

00:43:43   that was like, oh, it's gonna have a notch,

00:43:45   at the last minute, everybody was like,

00:43:47   oh my God, I can't believe it.

00:43:49   And I will tell you after using it for a week,

00:43:52   the Mac having a menu bar from day one in 1984

00:43:57   is the best thing ever for the people at Apple

00:44:02   who had to figure out this display notch thing.

00:44:06   Because the display notch and the menu bar,

00:44:10   they go together.

00:44:11   The whole way it's built is that there's a menu bar area

00:44:16   and the notch is in it.

00:44:17   And yes, that means that if you've got a lot of menus

00:44:19   in your app, they will wrap around.

00:44:21   And in fact, the lead screenshot in my review,

00:44:24   if you look carefully, it's a very pretty picture

00:44:27   of a MacBook Pro with a satellite picture on the desktop.

00:44:31   And if you look up in the menu bar though,

00:44:32   you'll see BB edit and you will see a couple

00:44:35   of the menu items on the right side of the notch.

00:44:38   Because they didn't fit on the left side.

00:44:42   So that will happen.

00:44:43   I think Apple's got a little bit of like,

00:44:45   it makes some attempts to fit things in

00:44:47   and shrink things up a little bit to fit them

00:44:49   on the left side.

00:44:50   But if they can't do it,

00:44:51   they pop them over to the right side.

00:44:52   It's not great.

00:44:53   But in general, all the content is down below

00:44:57   the menu bar area.

00:44:58   And that is a 16 by 10 rectangle screen.

00:45:02   You go into full screen mode,

00:45:03   your app goes into that space.

00:45:06   The menu bar, whether it's visible or not by default

00:45:09   is up in the menu bar space.

00:45:11   So what they've really done is not,

00:45:13   the way I would put it is Apple hasn't made a notch

00:45:17   that's intruding in your screen.

00:45:19   Apple has extended the screen with a special menu bar place

00:45:24   up above so that you've got more content

00:45:30   without the menu bar being in the way,

00:45:32   if that makes any sense.

00:45:33   So the menu bar, the bezel that they've eaten up

00:45:36   by extending the screen everywhere except around the notch

00:45:42   is the menu bar.

00:45:43   So you're basically creating special screen space

00:45:45   for the menu bar.

00:45:46   It works fine.

00:45:48   Most of the time you don't notice it

00:45:50   when it's got a black background up there.

00:45:52   You really don't notice it at all

00:45:55   unless you move your cursor

00:45:57   because the cursor doesn't like bump up against it.

00:45:59   The cursor just passes into it.

00:46:01   You take a screenshot by the way,

00:46:03   you can't see the notch.

00:46:04   - The screenshots are funny, man.

00:46:05   The screenshots are really funny.

00:46:06   Like when you're trying to show a screenshot

00:46:08   of the menu bar separating,

00:46:09   it's like, hey, what are you doing over there?

00:46:12   - Yeah, I had to take a photo of the notch

00:46:14   in order to show the notch in my review.

00:46:16   But there is this moment, the ghostly moment

00:46:19   where you take the cursor, the pointer,

00:46:20   and you just sort of slide it in

00:46:22   and it's like it's entered a black hole

00:46:23   and it's disappeared.

00:46:24   But if you keep sliding, it comes back out the other side.

00:46:27   - I kind of like that.

00:46:28   It's somewhere to hide it, you know?

00:46:29   Just a designated cursor resting area.

00:46:32   - Yeah, somebody needs to make a utility

00:46:34   that just looks to see if the cursor is behind the notch

00:46:36   and puts like a glow around the notch

00:46:38   to let you know that the cursor is there.

00:46:40   I would love that.

00:46:41   That would be hilarious.

00:46:41   So other than that,

00:46:44   like when you're using a light background

00:46:47   and so you can see the notch, you get used to it.

00:46:50   It's really not that big a deal.

00:46:52   And again, I think it goes back to the fact

00:46:54   that although apps can choose to take control

00:46:57   of that whole area, by default,

00:46:59   all the apps live down below the notch.

00:47:02   Even in full screen, they live below the notch.

00:47:05   And what you've really got is this extra space

00:47:07   that is essentially reserved for the menu bar.

00:47:10   And by doing that, by spacing out the menu bar,

00:47:14   all the things they've done

00:47:15   the last couple of macOS revisions,

00:47:17   they made the menu bar taller, they spaced it out,

00:47:20   they made these little rounded highlights

00:47:22   that go behind each one of the menu bar items

00:47:24   when you click on them.

00:47:25   All of that was really to set this notch up.

00:47:29   And it works.

00:47:30   It works really well.

00:47:31   So, you know, try it for yourself, see how you feel.

00:47:34   But I will tell you, the notch is a non-issue

00:47:39   because of the menu bar.

00:47:42   Because the menu bar exists, the notch is a non-issue.

00:47:44   And it's not even like the iPhone

00:47:45   where they put menu bar-ish things, right?

00:47:48   Status bar up there, but then you get into an app

00:47:51   and the app kind of like, you know,

00:47:53   expands to fill the space with a background color

00:47:55   and all of that.

00:47:56   Well, on the Mac instead, it's just always the menu bar.

00:47:59   And you're a Mac user, you have a menu bar, right?

00:48:03   Like that's where it goes.

00:48:05   It's fine.

00:48:06   It really is just not a big deal.

00:48:08   So unless you've got an app,

00:48:09   I'm sure we're gonna hear stories of apps

00:48:10   that have ridiculously long sets of different menu items.

00:48:15   And that we're gonna get hilarious screenshots

00:48:18   of how they jump over the divide and all of that.

00:48:21   I would say another thing, if I'm a Mac developer,

00:48:24   to put on my agenda is do a little menu bar analysis

00:48:29   and say, maybe I don't need as many individual items.

00:48:34   But if you have lots, it works, it works fine.

00:48:37   It just jumps the divide and it's not that big a deal.

00:48:40   - 'Cause they could, you know,

00:48:42   like they could put a notch on the iMac.

00:48:44   Like this might not be the only machine that gets a notch.

00:48:47   - They could, they could.

00:48:49   And if it was menu bar sized, it would not be a big deal.

00:48:52   That's the bottom line here is,

00:48:56   as a long time Mac user,

00:48:57   I got used to the taller menu bar in no time.

00:49:01   It's not a big deal.

00:49:02   It is the menu bar.

00:49:03   - 'Cause this one is, it's a little bit taller still, right?

00:49:06   It's like a little bit taller than the taller one.

00:49:08   But because they put like the screen is 16 by 10,

00:49:12   is it 16 by 10 underneath?

00:49:14   - Underneath the menu bar, it's 16 by 10.

00:49:16   So it's basically, if you imagine it,

00:49:18   it is a full Mac screen.

00:49:20   And then there's a menu bar, little menu bar and status bar,

00:49:24   bonus bit above it on the left and the right.

00:49:27   You could think of it that way,

00:49:28   'cause that's basically how it's built.

00:49:30   And so I think in the long run,

00:49:32   most apps will never, ever, ever, ever go up there.

00:49:36   It's menu bar space.

00:49:38   And that's the perfect space to hide a little cutout

00:49:41   'cause it's just the Mac menu bar.

00:49:43   It's fine.

00:49:43   It's, so yeah, again, I've seen so much anger about this.

00:49:49   It's so weird.

00:49:51   And if you use it, maybe you'll still be angry, I don't know,

00:49:54   but I use it for a week and it's just,

00:49:56   I think it's very clever.

00:49:57   I think it doesn't get in the way at all.

00:50:00   And it's all because that menu bar exists.

00:50:02   If the menu bar didn't exist,

00:50:03   things would get really complicated really fast.

00:50:05   But the menu bar is already kind of a locked off area.

00:50:08   Now, if you're somebody who does the hide menu bar thing,

00:50:11   then it is gonna be a little bit weird

00:50:15   'cause the hide menu bar option still works

00:50:18   when you're not in full screen to hide the menu bar.

00:50:20   And what you end up with is,

00:50:22   your desktop picture still extends up there

00:50:25   and you can move your mouse up there.

00:50:26   And if you try to drag like a narrow window,

00:50:28   like over up into the upper left-hand corner,

00:50:31   it goes, and it pushes it back down below the menu bar space.

00:50:35   - Could I hide a secret file of secrets

00:50:37   underneath the notch on the desktop?

00:50:40   You know?

00:50:41   - Probably not.

00:50:41   - Probably not, that's a shame.

00:50:42   Now that'd be fun.

00:50:43   Someone should make that as a utility too, you know.

00:50:46   - I put my cursor in there and it opens up a secret folder.

00:50:50   - Or like a little, some sort of UI that,

00:50:52   you know how you've got the UI in a menu bar extra

00:50:54   that drops down like Fantastical drops down?

00:50:57   - Oh yeah.

00:50:57   - Have the option to have it drop down on a hotkey,

00:51:00   it drops down from behind the notch.

00:51:03   - Yes, I love it.

00:51:04   - There it is. - That's what I want.

00:51:06   - Anyway, I'm sure clever people will do stuff like that.

00:51:08   - I hope so. - It'll be fun.

00:51:09   - So the notch has within it the webcam, any thoughts?

00:51:14   - Sure, it is the, what's the wording

00:51:17   that lost you a point on the Ricky's?

00:51:19   It is the best-- - The best webcam ever

00:51:21   in a Mac laptop. - In a Mac laptop, right?

00:51:25   It's the same as the iMac one, it's the same.

00:51:29   It's a 1080 with the image processing and it is as good.

00:51:34   It's a little bit better than the one in my iMac Pro

00:51:38   'cause my iMac Pro doesn't have the image processor

00:51:41   wired up, I don't think the T2 does that,

00:51:44   but it's essentially the same hardware.

00:51:47   It is fine.

00:51:50   This is one of those categories where I don't wanna give

00:51:54   Apple credit for making an improvement to something

00:51:57   that should be way better than it is.

00:51:59   'Cause the bottom line is it's a Pro laptop.

00:52:01   The iMac, the iPad mini, the iPad mini has center stage

00:52:06   and the MacBook Pro does not.

00:52:10   It's dumb, I get it, maybe they can't make it thin enough,

00:52:13   maybe they couldn't fit it in this time, whatever.

00:52:15   But if I'm gonna judge it, I'm gonna say it's the best

00:52:18   webcam ever in a Mac notebook and it should still be way

00:52:21   better than it is.

00:52:22   - The iPad, not even just the iPad mini, the $300 iPad.

00:52:26   - Oh yeah, yeah, you're right.

00:52:28   I mean, so center stage, it's like, it's right there.

00:52:31   It needs to be on the Mac, it's disappointing that it's not.

00:52:34   This is fine, it is the best that they've done so far,

00:52:37   but they don't deserve applause for this upgrade.

00:52:41   It is literally the least they could do

00:52:44   and the least they have done.

00:52:45   And I hope that they get over it pretty soon

00:52:47   and start putting a, like again, 12 megapixel in the iPads,

00:52:52   12 megapixel wide screen with auto panning center stage.

00:52:57   Like that should be on every Mac.

00:53:01   And so I'm not gonna give them credit for going to 1080

00:53:03   with their webcam, with processing.

00:53:05   It's nice, but they get no cookie for that.

00:53:08   I'm sorry, they just don't.

00:53:09   Same with the SD card, like the SD card, I'm glad it's back.

00:53:13   The HDMI slot port, I'm glad it's back.

00:53:16   Did they put those, make those cutting edge

00:53:19   or are they kind of second class?

00:53:21   They're kind of second class.

00:53:22   I'm glad they're there,

00:53:24   but they're not doing the HDMI 2.1,

00:53:27   they're not doing the faster SD card specs.

00:53:31   They're fine and probably all that anybody who uses

00:53:35   that ports really needs,

00:53:36   which is probably why they made that decision.

00:53:38   But at the same time, no cookie for that.

00:53:42   Like I'm glad they're back.

00:53:43   So they get an award for rectifying their error,

00:53:46   but they could have made them more cutting edge

00:53:48   than they did.

00:53:49   Same thing with the charging ports on the 16 inch.

00:53:51   Like it's, those ports are also lesser, right?

00:53:55   'Cause they've got this new power delivery spec

00:53:57   and their brick on the 16 inch supports it.

00:54:00   And the MagSafe on the 16 inch supports it,

00:54:03   but the ports on the 16 inch don't.

00:54:05   So they don't do fast charging.

00:54:06   And it feels like all of Apple's ports

00:54:09   and the webcam are like leftover

00:54:13   from three or four years ago.

00:54:15   And right now they're given water

00:54:18   to somebody dying of thirst.

00:54:19   So we'll take it all.

00:54:20   But I look at those areas as all the areas

00:54:23   that probably need to be improved

00:54:24   the next time they do a version of this product,

00:54:26   because they're all still kind of not,

00:54:29   like for such a cutting edge project or product,

00:54:33   there are several things on this product

00:54:36   that are very much not cutting edge.

00:54:38   That's okay.

00:54:39   It's okay, but there's room for improvement there.

00:54:42   - Yeah, definitely.

00:54:44   You know, I'm still gonna, I haven't tried it out yet,

00:54:46   but I consider it's the same webcam.

00:54:48   I'm sure I'm gonna continue to have the same issues

00:54:50   with the camera being completely unusable to me

00:54:52   and my studio because of the way that it,

00:54:56   like the overhead lighting I have interferes,

00:54:58   which is a thing that other devices don't have.

00:55:00   Like iPhones, iPads, they handle it.

00:55:02   Fine.

00:55:03   I don't know if it's like a focusing thing,

00:55:05   so it's able to not be affected by the light so much,

00:55:09   but it continues to be a frustration of mine.

00:55:11   I have no doubt will continue to be a frustration of mine.

00:55:14   When I get it, I'll actually record some videos

00:55:16   so you can see what it looks like.

00:55:18   Very frustrating.

00:55:19   - Oh boy.

00:55:20   - You know, when I was looking at the keyboard images

00:55:23   in your review and you were talking about

00:55:25   the full height function keys,

00:55:28   I had this like alternate world kind of thought,

00:55:31   which I think I would have liked,

00:55:33   which is half height function keys and a touch bar.

00:55:36   But obviously this is only in a world where the touch bar

00:55:40   got more functionality than just glorified function keys.

00:55:45   But I think I would like that.

00:55:47   - Yeah, I mean the touch bar, they tried it

00:55:49   and obviously they didn't think it worked.

00:55:51   And I think pretty long ago they decided it didn't work.

00:55:55   And it just took them a while to get to the point

00:55:57   of ripping it out because it's the only thing

00:56:00   as detailed in many episodes of upgrade over the years,

00:56:03   they never really updated the software for the touch bar,

00:56:06   which suggests to me that very quickly

00:56:09   after the touch bar came out,

00:56:11   Apple had basically decided that it was not gonna make it

00:56:14   and that they were just gonna keep it alive

00:56:16   with minimal effort until they could rip it out.

00:56:18   And then they finally have ripped it out now.

00:56:20   I don't know, I had a section that I took out

00:56:22   because I feel like it's another article.

00:56:23   And I know Gruber mentioned this on the talk show

00:56:25   a couple of weeks ago.

00:56:26   The idea that,

00:56:27   Apple could still do some innovation,

00:56:32   try some innovation in keyboards.

00:56:33   I just feel like they are so bitten.

00:56:35   Like every attempt they've done to innovate in keyboards

00:56:38   has been met with rejection and people saying,

00:56:41   why are you doing this?

00:56:43   You're a monster.

00:56:43   And so they've gotten praise

00:56:45   for not innovating in keyboards.

00:56:48   Like is key and could keyboards be innovated on?

00:56:51   I think they could.

00:56:52   And I think maybe Apple's innovations

00:56:56   were just the wrong ones for the wrong reasons.

00:56:59   The best one that I've come up with is,

00:57:02   as somebody who uses the Stream Deck,

00:57:04   is I would be curious about replacing the function keys

00:57:09   with programmable keys that were still keys.

00:57:14   But that had an Apple,

00:57:15   I know at one point they filed for a patent for this.

00:57:17   And I know that some other keyboards do this.

00:57:19   It's the idea that you've got,

00:57:22   the keys actually change based on context

00:57:24   and you can program them.

00:57:26   But they're still keys.

00:57:28   'Cause I think one of the important points

00:57:29   is being able to get to them by feel.

00:57:31   That would be an interesting thing for Apple to pursue,

00:57:34   I guess, but honestly,

00:57:36   it has been such a nightmare the last five years

00:57:38   that I don't blame Apple for basically saying,

00:57:41   we're gonna stick to the classics.

00:57:43   This is what everybody really wants.

00:57:46   We're gonna innovate in other areas.

00:57:48   And truth be told,

00:57:50   I would much rather them think about

00:57:52   how you could put touch on a Mac display

00:57:55   than I would have them monkey around

00:57:56   with the keyboard some more.

00:57:58   - So do you have any final thoughts?

00:58:00   Is this a computer that Jason Snell wants?

00:58:03   - Well, no, because of my use case,

00:58:07   I'm not a laptop user so much anymore

00:58:10   and the MacBook Air is fine for travel.

00:58:12   If this was gonna be,

00:58:14   if I was not gonna use my desktop

00:58:16   or if I decided I was gonna buy a beautiful display

00:58:18   that isn't available,

00:58:21   and then use a docked laptop, I would get this,

00:58:24   but I'm kind of holding out.

00:58:26   Personally, what I want is a big screen desktop iMac,

00:58:31   essentially for my desk.

00:58:34   And then I've got my little M1 MacBook Air

00:58:36   for when I need to travel and that's all I need.

00:58:40   So it's not for me,

00:58:41   but the thing is laptops are for most people, right?

00:58:45   Most people are laptops.

00:58:47   And although most,

00:58:49   the majority of those laptops that Apple sells

00:58:51   are MacBook Airs, even in the pro space,

00:58:54   I believe it is true.

00:58:55   It's probably not as great,

00:58:57   but I'm sure that more than half of the pro,

00:59:00   people are buying laptops probably even more than that,

00:59:03   two thirds, three quarters.

00:59:05   So it doesn't matter that it's not for me.

00:59:07   - Laptops are computers now.

00:59:10   That's what a computer is.

00:59:11   It's a laptop.

00:59:12   - Yeah, and honestly, what is a desktop?

00:59:15   It is essentially just,

00:59:17   you would prefer to be in a,

00:59:20   sitting at a desk with a big screen context,

00:59:23   which is why, yeah, you could easily buy one of these.

00:59:25   And I think that's why we hear the clamor

00:59:28   for a big external display from Apple

00:59:30   that doesn't cost $5,000.

00:59:32   Is that what so many people really want

00:59:33   is a MacBook Pro like this one,

00:59:35   and they want to be able to dock it at their desk

00:59:37   to a big, beautiful display.

00:59:39   And the displays that are out there right now are not great

00:59:42   or cost $5,000 and that's not-

00:59:44   - Or just frankly, at any price,

00:59:45   don't have the features that the laptop display has.

00:59:49   - Sure, well, that's also true.

00:59:50   So I- - Like I could give Apple

00:59:52   six grand and I'm not gonna get promotion.

00:59:56   - Yeah, that's true.

00:59:56   You're not.

00:59:57   You'll get XDR, but you're not gonna get promotion.

01:00:01   So yeah, it's a funny time.

01:00:05   And for me personally,

01:00:07   I'm looking forward to seeing these chips in an iMac,

01:00:11   something with a very, very, very big screen.

01:00:14   If I was in, you know,

01:00:17   if they made a 27-inch mini LED display,

01:00:22   I would think about getting one of these

01:00:28   and not having to have my MacBook Air,

01:00:31   but I already have my MacBook Air and it's gonna be fine.

01:00:34   And what I really want is the,

01:00:36   ideally even better performance

01:00:38   that it would be in a desktop.

01:00:39   And my desktop, I've had a desktop for a while now.

01:00:42   I started when I started out on my own with a laptop

01:00:44   that was docked and then I got that first 5K iMac.

01:00:47   And I'm very happy with that kind of iMac lifestyle.

01:00:51   But the truth is that these are, yes,

01:00:55   these are the mainstream, this is what a computer is.

01:00:58   And this is a Mac Pro that will go with you

01:01:02   anywhere you wanna go and do your work.

01:01:05   And that's pretty great.

01:01:06   And also I would say, a lot of times,

01:01:09   I wrote a piece about this that, you know,

01:01:10   where I was making fun of Steven Hackett,

01:01:12   basically about like, you don't need a Mac Pro, right?

01:01:15   Don't buy a Mac Pro just 'cause it's cool.

01:01:17   Unless you want to, unless it makes you feel good,

01:01:18   which it makes Steven feel good.

01:01:20   So that's fine.

01:01:21   But I would say the same here.

01:01:22   - I don't think it makes me feel so good anymore.

01:01:24   - Well, no, the beauty of the 1999, 1999, I think,

01:01:29   base model MacBook Pro is these, you know,

01:01:35   you may not need the kind of power

01:01:37   that's at the high end of these things.

01:01:39   And so by doing the chip binning,

01:01:40   so they've got the reduced core count

01:01:42   and they've got the reduced GPU count.

01:01:44   And I know that means that they're raising the price

01:01:47   and yet having their lesser processors, you know,

01:01:51   just not in terms of the processor itself

01:01:53   so much as the cores and GPUs are turned off,

01:01:55   like in that base model.

01:01:57   So you have to spend even more to get up to like full chip.

01:02:00   But I think the truth is some people just like Pro laptops

01:02:04   and they want more than the MacBook Air.

01:02:06   And beyond that, they don't really need a Mac Pro, right?

01:02:10   And so that's the advantage of Apple making those

01:02:13   binned chips available down at lower prices

01:02:17   is I think a lot of people just get that 1999 model

01:02:21   and be happy, right?

01:02:22   And no, it's not gonna be as fast as the Mac's chip

01:02:27   with 32 GPUs and 64 gigs of RAM, like no,

01:02:32   but you know, a lot of people don't need that.

01:02:37   And so I think that that is something we should pay

01:02:40   attention to is that people are gonna buy lower end

01:02:43   configurations of these things

01:02:44   and they're still gonna be great.

01:02:46   - This episode is brought to you by Things,

01:02:48   the award-winning to-do app.

01:02:51   I wanna tell you about a fantastic feature

01:02:52   that's recently been added to Things.

01:02:54   Things now supports Markdown inside of your notes.

01:02:58   This is real, true, honest to goodness Markdown as well,

01:03:01   not some small subset of it.

01:03:02   It's the real thing.

01:03:04   Headings, bold, italics, highlights, code,

01:03:07   the code blocks, you name it, it's there.

01:03:09   All the syntax is detected and rendered

01:03:11   in a beautiful style inside your to-dos and project notes.

01:03:15   You may wonder why would you want Markdown

01:03:17   as a feature inside of your to-do app?

01:03:19   Well, because in most to-do apps,

01:03:21   the note field is kind of treated,

01:03:23   you know, it's forgotten about.

01:03:24   It's like, hey, it's this thing, we have it, whatever.

01:03:26   But you know, maybe it's displayed as super small font

01:03:29   or it's like you have to tap three times to get it.

01:03:32   It's tucked away, but not in Things.

01:03:35   Your notes take center stage.

01:03:37   When you open a to-do,

01:03:38   you'll give them plenty of room to write in.

01:03:41   It's super easy to add details you need to get tasks done.

01:03:44   Detailed plans, reference materials, brainstorms,

01:03:47   or just like little bullet points.

01:03:50   Like so sometimes, you know,

01:03:51   I could sometimes end like three to-dos for something

01:03:54   when I could actually just put them all in one to-do.

01:03:57   It's like here's my to-do

01:03:58   and then I write some notes in there, nice and easy.

01:04:00   It makes things really nice and beautiful

01:04:01   and good to look at.

01:04:03   Not every to-do needs long notes,

01:04:05   but for the ones that do, it's great to know

01:04:07   that you can now keep it right where you need it

01:04:10   inside of Things.

01:04:11   And thanks to Markdown,

01:04:12   even your longest notes look and feel fantastic.

01:04:16   So if you haven't tried out Things,

01:04:17   you should check out this new version.

01:04:19   Just search for Things in the App Store

01:04:21   or head over to their website at thingsapp.com.

01:04:23   That's T-H-I-N-G-S-A-P-P.com.

01:04:27   And you can download a free trial for your Mac

01:04:29   and try out the new Markdown feature for yourself

01:04:32   and really kind of give it a good go.

01:04:34   It's a beautiful application with tons of wonderful features.

01:04:37   Whatever it is you want to accomplish in life,

01:04:39   Things can help you get there.

01:04:40   Go to thingsapp.com and try it out today.

01:04:43   Our thanks to Things for their support of this episode

01:04:46   and Relay FM.

01:04:48   Let's finally, Jason, finally talk about

01:04:51   the Apple Watch Series 7.

01:04:54   - Okay.

01:04:54   - We can finally talk about it.

01:04:56   We've been meaning to get to it for a while.

01:04:58   Can you remind me and the Upgradians

01:05:01   what Apple Watch you were upgrading from

01:05:03   and what model you have?

01:05:05   - Okay.

01:05:07   And keep in mind that I haven't thought

01:05:08   about the Apple Watch in a week

01:05:09   'cause I've been thinking about a laptop.

01:05:11   So it's on my to-do list.

01:05:13   I had a Series 5.

01:05:16   I bought a Series 7 titanium.

01:05:19   It's not here yet.

01:05:21   I have an Apple review unit of a Series 7 aluminum

01:05:25   and the big one again.

01:05:29   - Right.

01:05:30   Okay.

01:05:31   - So I mean, I have the Series 7 stainless steel.

01:05:35   It's 45 millimeters is the big one, right?

01:05:38   And I was upgrading from the 44 millimeter ceramic

01:05:44   Series 5 watch.

01:05:47   And I'd never used a Series 6.

01:05:50   So I have kind of not really,

01:05:52   I didn't really have much of a comparison

01:05:54   'cause some of the stuff that's there,

01:05:56   which I quite like is, you know,

01:05:57   like the brighter always on display

01:05:59   and all that kind of stuff.

01:06:00   Like I've benefited from that.

01:06:02   I took one blood oxygen reading

01:06:04   and that's probably the last time I'll ever do that,

01:06:07   but I've done it now.

01:06:08   - Well, congratulations.

01:06:10   - What do you think of the like change size,

01:06:13   the screen size and stuff like that?

01:06:15   Do you notice it?

01:06:16   Do you like it?

01:06:17   - Okay. - Yeah, I do.

01:06:18   I do and I do.

01:06:19   That's the thing about it

01:06:20   that really was what motivated me to update.

01:06:25   And I feel very impressed by it in general.

01:06:28   Like in a screen this small,

01:06:31   pushing that screen larger makes a huge difference.

01:06:34   And I like tapping my code in to unlock it.

01:06:39   It's like, oh, look, these buttons are so much more tappable

01:06:42   and there's so much more space for individual apps.

01:06:46   I think it's very impressive.

01:06:50   That said, there are still,

01:06:51   I can't believe I'm saying this,

01:06:53   but like, so they updated some of the watch faces

01:06:56   for the larger display.

01:06:57   So like they must've decided finally that utility,

01:07:00   bless utility original watch face

01:07:04   and it's still my favorite.

01:07:06   Like, oh yeah, we kind of got away

01:07:08   with not doing anything on it before,

01:07:10   but we really need to do it now.

01:07:11   So what did they do?

01:07:13   They pushed it out to the edges

01:07:14   and didn't change anything else about it.

01:07:15   So even though there's plenty of room

01:07:17   for like corner complications in utility,

01:07:20   they are, because the watch design today

01:07:23   or the face design dates from before

01:07:25   there were those corner complications that are bigger,

01:07:29   they just never ever updated them.

01:07:34   So you still have this limited number of complications.

01:07:36   That's what frustrates me the most about the Apple Watch

01:07:39   is it feels very much like they put a lot of effort

01:07:44   into the new stuff and the old stuff just sits there

01:07:47   and never gets an update.

01:07:49   And they feel like it's solved the problem, but it hasn't.

01:07:53   And so I was really hoping that I would have

01:07:55   some new watch face abilities with this watch.

01:07:59   And the truth is it's the exact same state of affairs

01:08:01   as on the five where my primary watch face

01:08:05   is probably going to be California,

01:08:07   which I don't like as much as utility,

01:08:10   but I can get it to be close to what utility looks like

01:08:14   and have four corner complications,

01:08:17   which the other one doesn't have mostly again,

01:08:21   because it predates that.

01:08:23   And even with this update,

01:08:25   they didn't make any changes there.

01:08:26   It's just so frustrating to me.

01:08:27   And maybe it has to do with the primitive nature of watchOS

01:08:31   where if they update a watch face to be different

01:08:35   on some models, it gets confused

01:08:37   because the other models don't have that.

01:08:39   And so they're like, how does the watch app work

01:08:41   and how do apps affect those complications?

01:08:46   Like I get that it's hard, but it is kind of ridiculous that-

01:08:50   - They could find a way.

01:08:51   - Right?

01:08:52   - They could find a way if they wanted to.

01:08:53   - I get that it might be complicated,

01:08:55   but why are you making watch faces

01:08:57   for the original Apple Watch

01:08:59   and then just not adding anything

01:09:02   that you've added to the OS?

01:09:03   Only the new, so basically only the new watch faces

01:09:07   get new features that were introduced at that point, right?

01:09:12   So if you get a new watch face that was introduced

01:09:14   when the new feature was there,

01:09:16   they will take advantage of it.

01:09:17   But like the old watch faces are sort of like,

01:09:19   nah, we're not gonna do that.

01:09:21   We're back here in the olden times.

01:09:23   And I am frustrated by that, but I do love the screen.

01:09:27   And as somebody who uses my watch a lot with cellular

01:09:32   and it's faster, I can tell because faster than the five,

01:09:37   it feels faster and the screen is nice.

01:09:40   And that's, this is what I was looking for.

01:09:43   I wish that they would really walk through the entire OS

01:09:46   and update everything.

01:09:47   And if that means breaking compatibility with old models,

01:09:51   like I know they still sell the series three,

01:09:54   but this is the problem, right?

01:09:55   Just like, it still feels like I'm inheriting

01:09:59   really dusty old stuff from the original Apple Watch,

01:10:02   which was a long time ago now.

01:10:04   And that stuff all needs a brush up.

01:10:07   - I, at first, I didn't notice the screen.

01:10:09   I couldn't tell it was bigger.

01:10:11   And then as soon as I saw the passcode screen,

01:10:14   I was like, oh, there it is.

01:10:15   - Oh, yeah.

01:10:16   - It's like almost the metrics on the buttons,

01:10:18   just knowing that they're larger and it's like, oh yes.

01:10:21   - I love the notification button sizes.

01:10:23   They're so much easier to tap now.

01:10:25   I like that a lot.

01:10:27   And I would say as well, whilst it looks ridiculous,

01:10:29   the keyboard is the best way to send messages now.

01:10:33   That little swipe keyboard, it works great.

01:10:35   So much better than dictating.

01:10:37   And it's way better than individually drawing every letter,

01:10:41   which is absurd.

01:10:43   Like that's always been absurd.

01:10:45   I like the little keyboard.

01:10:47   I think it does a good job.

01:10:49   The design of the watch itself, I'm pretty into.

01:10:54   I got, remember I got the gold one

01:10:55   and I really love the gold one.

01:10:58   I think it looks really nice.

01:11:00   I'm very happy with the overall feel of it,

01:11:02   which I'm really pleased about

01:11:05   'cause I was very begrudging

01:11:06   in getting rid of the addition, the white ceramic.

01:11:09   I enjoyed that.

01:11:11   I actually think I prefer the design now

01:11:14   of the watch that I have now.

01:11:16   I actually think it looks more like a watch,

01:11:18   which is something I've always wanted,

01:11:20   especially with the bands that I'm using.

01:11:22   So on a daily basis, I'm wearing the Leather Link band.

01:11:26   I got the Midnight one and I really like that pairing.

01:11:29   And I got the, as I mentioned before,

01:11:31   I did get the gold Milanese,

01:11:32   which I decided to wear on occasions.

01:11:35   You know, going out to dinner or something, I'll put it on.

01:11:37   And it helps me feel like I'm dressing the watch up

01:11:40   a little bit, which is I think something

01:11:41   that's important to me 'cause it was something

01:11:43   that I would find frustrating with the Apple Watch before

01:11:46   is that it always felt like I was wearing a computer.

01:11:48   And it still does, but now at least I think it has something

01:11:52   that looks a little bit more special about it.

01:11:54   I don't know when Apple changed this,

01:11:57   but I'm happy that the digital crown

01:11:59   is not black in the middle anymore.

01:12:01   I don't know if that was maybe a thing

01:12:03   that was held over longer on the edition,

01:12:06   but you know, I had the white watch and it had a black crown.

01:12:09   - Still black on the aluminum watch, Myke.

01:12:12   - Oh, really?

01:12:13   - Yeah, it's still with a red circle around it

01:12:14   on the aluminum watch.

01:12:15   Yeah, I've got the blue and it's still got a,

01:12:18   the crown is blue, but the flat part is the red outline

01:12:23   and then a black circle.

01:12:25   - Still had the red outline, which at this point,

01:12:27   I think on the stainless steel is pointless

01:12:29   'cause I think you can only get the cellular maybe.

01:12:33   So I don't know why that's needed.

01:12:34   - Pointless.

01:12:35   - But I'm very happy that they have,

01:12:39   at least on some of the models now,

01:12:41   they got rid of the black on the inside,

01:12:43   but yeah, I don't need this red.

01:12:45   It doesn't need to be here.

01:12:46   I don't like it, wish I'd get rid of it,

01:12:48   but they're getting better a little bit at a time.

01:12:51   Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's fast.

01:12:54   Like I was expecting that.

01:12:56   I'm happy with it.

01:12:57   - Oh, I mean, I'll talk about the look.

01:12:58   The blue, all of the Apple watches that I've bought

01:13:01   have been black.

01:13:02   - Right.

01:13:04   - But I had them send me for the review

01:13:06   a blue with a blue band.

01:13:11   It's really pretty.

01:13:12   I'm very impressed with it.

01:13:13   It is not super bright,

01:13:16   but it's also not one of those Apple,

01:13:19   we call it blue, but you really can't tell blues.

01:13:23   It's a really nice blue.

01:13:26   The bands are basically match it,

01:13:30   which is also nice.

01:13:32   And yeah, then you're walking around with a blue watch

01:13:34   and you gotta like embrace it.

01:13:36   And like I said, I think my preference is to keep it,

01:13:41   keep it black, keep it dark, just keep it that way.

01:13:43   That's my preference for a watch.

01:13:46   But I really enjoyed wearing the blue

01:13:49   for the last couple of weeks.

01:13:51   It's fun.

01:13:53   And so I can endorse the blue watch color

01:13:56   for the aluminum watch.

01:13:57   It's a lot of fun.

01:13:59   I imagine the red is quite similar.

01:14:01   If you're a fan of red,

01:14:03   in this house, red is bad and blue is good.

01:14:06   So we will always be on the blue train.

01:14:09   But overall, it's kind of what I expected it to be,

01:14:12   Apple watch wise.

01:14:14   But I think I am actually more pleased with it

01:14:17   than I was expecting.

01:14:18   So that's a big win for me.

01:14:20   - Yeah, yeah, I agree.

01:14:22   I think that big screen is the story, right?

01:14:25   Like, and that's the reason,

01:14:27   if you're thinking of upgrading from a previous model,

01:14:29   and I think series six, like you probably don't need to.

01:14:33   Series five, I felt like I had refrained

01:14:36   from buying an Apple watch last year.

01:14:38   And I thought maybe this year.

01:14:41   And with the bigger screen, I thought, that's what I want.

01:14:43   And having seen it now,

01:14:45   I think I was right in saying that that was enough.

01:14:49   Certainly if you're using a watch older than a series five,

01:14:52   I think that the benefit is clear.

01:14:55   One of the things I haven't done that I need to test

01:14:57   before I write my article is I'm really looking forward

01:14:59   to seeing about the text size.

01:15:02   Because you can adjust the text size

01:15:04   much more than you could.

01:15:05   And this, I felt was an accessibility problem

01:15:07   on the Apple watch is the unlike on like the iPhone

01:15:12   and the Mac, you could not go crank the system text

01:15:16   up beyond a certain point.

01:15:18   And that was a very small point.

01:15:20   And older people end up having a problem

01:15:25   with their near vision.

01:15:26   And an Apple watch is really nice,

01:15:27   but if you can't read your Apple watch

01:15:29   without putting on your reading glasses,

01:15:31   it's kind of not doing its job.

01:15:32   And I don't have that problem, but I know people who do,

01:15:37   and this is an issue.

01:15:38   So I'm looking forward to checking that out,

01:15:40   but I haven't done it yet because everything else.

01:15:44   But I will get to that before I write my review

01:15:46   and I'm looking forward to trying that out.

01:15:48   - You know, I remain consistently frustrated

01:15:51   at their ability to create watch faces though.

01:15:53   I just, I think I'm always gonna be this way.

01:15:55   - So somebody, I think it was Steve Trout and Smith,

01:15:58   but somebody pointed out,

01:15:59   and I think this is kind of brilliant,

01:16:03   is what if Apple made a watch face that was hands

01:16:08   and made a complication type that was behind the hands?

01:16:18   Like, and I thought, I thought I kind of like this idea

01:16:26   of like, all right, Apple, it is bargaining,

01:16:28   but like, all right, Apple, you're not gonna let,

01:16:32   maybe they will, I mean, stranger things have happened.

01:16:35   You're not gonna let us do third party watch faces.

01:16:38   How about mega complications, right?

01:16:44   How about we do, you know, you draw the hands,

01:16:48   you do all of that,

01:16:49   but we get more control over some other stuff.

01:16:52   Like, could they put themselves in,

01:16:54   I mean, it doesn't solve every problem,

01:16:55   but it solves some problems.

01:16:57   If Apple sort of says, you know,

01:17:00   we have a few different hand styles,

01:17:02   and then beyond that,

01:17:03   we can't wait to see what you do with it

01:17:05   and give third parties the ability

01:17:07   to do more interesting stuff behind.

01:17:09   But I agree with you.

01:17:10   I think the problem with the faces

01:17:13   as it currently stands is,

01:17:14   it is very hard to look at the Apple Watch faces

01:17:19   and feel like there's any prioritization at Apple for it.

01:17:22   And I'm not saying that the faces that they're doing

01:17:26   as new faces aren't nice.

01:17:27   I think the portrait face is really nice.

01:17:30   And that the fact that they're using portrait phone

01:17:33   picture data to do cutouts

01:17:36   and like layer your watch data in with the pictures,

01:17:40   which if you haven't seen it, it's amazing.

01:17:41   Like you've got a person in the foreground

01:17:43   and the time is in the background

01:17:45   and it's slightly masked by the person in the foreground.

01:17:48   Like when it works, it's amazing.

01:17:50   It's like a fun thing,

01:17:52   but it really feels like the watch face team

01:17:55   needs three times as many people as are working on it now,

01:18:00   because they should be better.

01:18:02   There should be more complication options.

01:18:04   And I don't know, watch faces matter.

01:18:10   Like I know they're silly,

01:18:12   but they're also important and personalize your watch.

01:18:15   And it's an important part of being an Apple Watch user

01:18:19   and owner is the face.

01:18:21   And yet it seems like it's never really a priority for Apple

01:18:26   even now.

01:18:27   So I agree.

01:18:29   They're fine, but boy, they should be better than fine.

01:18:33   - This episode of Upgrade is also brought to you

01:18:36   by HPE Tech Talk, a podcast from the folks

01:18:39   at Hewlett Packard Enterprise.

01:18:41   I love finding new podcasts to listen to.

01:18:43   I know that you obviously do too, right?

01:18:45   We all love podcasts here.

01:18:47   You find something new, you can go back

01:18:48   and listen to a bunch of past episodes.

01:18:50   I always find that such a treat.

01:18:52   Tech Talk is a show that talks through HPE news,

01:18:54   tech insights, world-class innovations,

01:18:57   with tons of really interesting topics.

01:18:59   Like for example, what about applying tech

01:19:01   for the good of the people, planet,

01:19:03   and communities that surround us,

01:19:05   which seems like something that's only more important

01:19:06   these days, or how Walt Disney Studios,

01:19:09   experimenting of AI and machine learning

01:19:11   to help creators with the filmmaking process,

01:19:13   or even how the chief technology officer

01:19:15   of Tottenham Hotspur, which is a football club,

01:19:18   their state of the art stadium

01:19:19   and how it's utilizing technology and connectivity

01:19:22   to help keep players and fans safe

01:19:24   amid COVID-19 restrictions.

01:19:26   All of these types of topics are available to you

01:19:29   with HPE Tech Talk.

01:19:31   I listened to an episode recently focused

01:19:33   on how companies can integrate the power

01:19:35   of cloud technologies into every part

01:19:37   of their business setup.

01:19:38   This is something called moving to a hybrid model,

01:19:42   and it really talks about how companies

01:19:44   can work through that and some of the things

01:19:46   they might want to think about.

01:19:47   So if this is something of interest to you,

01:19:48   you might want to check it out.

01:19:50   Previous episodes have also had tons of great guests.

01:19:53   This is something that they really believe in on the show,

01:19:55   taking you straight to the source

01:19:57   and interviewing some really impressive tech leaders,

01:20:01   like Sanjeev Katwa, the CTO of Tottenham Hotspur FC,

01:20:04   talking about the stuff I was mentioning a minute ago

01:20:06   about how they're using technology and connectivity

01:20:09   at their new stadium.

01:20:10   Emily Christensen, a master candidate

01:20:12   in applied data science at USC.

01:20:14   Monica Livingston from Intel, and many, many more.

01:20:18   Listen to brand new episodes of HPE's Tech Talk

01:20:21   everywhere you get your podcasts,

01:20:22   like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and everywhere else.

01:20:25   Search for Tech Talk right now,

01:20:27   or click the link in the show notes

01:20:29   and go and check it out today.

01:20:30   Our thanks to HPE Tech Talk for their support

01:20:33   of this show and Relay FM.

01:20:35   Let's finish out today's episode

01:20:37   with some #AskUpgrade questions.

01:20:41   The first comes from Millennial Falcon,

01:20:42   which is a great username.

01:20:44   "What technology product do you think

01:20:47   you may have more nostalgia for than most people would?"

01:20:50   - Wow, this is a great question.

01:20:53   I've got a bunch, right?

01:20:54   A bunch of unloved tech products that I love.

01:20:58   So the first is a thing called Video Guide,

01:21:01   which I'm sure I've mentioned before.

01:21:03   It was basically a...

01:21:05   You know how every DVR and cable box and everything now

01:21:10   has like a grid that you call up

01:21:11   that shows where all the shows are,

01:21:13   and you can set your shows to record

01:21:15   or record the same show every time and all of that.

01:21:18   Video Guide was that before any DVR technology existed.

01:21:22   So it was like a little box that you attach to your TV,

01:21:25   and it did an IR blaster to your VCR.

01:21:28   And it had a guide back in the day

01:21:31   where you didn't have a cable box with a guide

01:21:33   if you even had a cable box.

01:21:35   And you could set to record shows,

01:21:37   and at the time the show was recording,

01:21:40   it would turn on your VCR with the IR blaster,

01:21:42   switch to that channel and press record.

01:21:45   And then when the show was over,

01:21:47   it would use the IR blaster to press stop.

01:21:50   It was amazing.

01:21:51   - Man, I have found an incredible review website thing

01:21:55   of this from the 90s.

01:21:57   I'm gonna put it on this. - I've linked to it before.

01:21:58   It's the one like that in a Tidbits article

01:22:01   are like the only traces of Video Guide out there

01:22:03   other than maybe my Six Colors article where I mentioned it.

01:22:05   So it was a TiVo, except it wasn't.

01:22:09   It was just the guide part, but it was mind blowing.

01:22:12   And we bought a second VCR so that we could have the one VCR

01:22:17   that was just recording stuff.

01:22:19   And then the other one where we played it back.

01:22:21   Again, and then like five years later, the TiVo came out.

01:22:26   But it was, I mean, so huge nostalgia for the Video Guide.

01:22:30   iPod Hi-Fi? (laughs)

01:22:34   - Yeah, you kept that thing around for a long time.

01:22:36   - I mean, it's right here.

01:22:38   I'm not using it right now, but it is right here

01:22:40   and not so bad.

01:22:42   Everybody's got nostalgia for the iPod, which turned 20.

01:22:49   I have nostalgia for it too, but it's not quite the same.

01:22:52   But for weird tech products that I have nostalgia for,

01:22:56   that Video Guide was incredible.

01:22:59   And then of course, went out of business one morning.

01:23:03   That's my favorite thing.

01:23:04   Whenever people talk about like subscriptions to software

01:23:07   or not owning something or relying on something

01:23:10   that's being done by a fly-by-night company,

01:23:13   I think a Video Guide, because one day we came out

01:23:16   and turned on the TV and pressed the button

01:23:19   on the Video Guide and a screen came up that said,

01:23:21   "Video Guide has been discontinued.

01:23:23   Please send your Video Guide back

01:23:25   and we'll give you some money back."

01:23:27   And that was it.

01:23:28   It was over.

01:23:29   - Did you get money back?

01:23:30   - I don't think we did.

01:23:33   I think we did send it back.

01:23:34   Maybe they sent us a check for like $4 or something.

01:23:36   It was literally nothing.

01:23:38   And I thought that was a really good lesson too.

01:23:40   And then obviously like TiVo came along

01:23:42   and it solved everything.

01:23:44   - Mine, I think, is the very first video iPod.

01:23:48   So was it like iPod fifth gen with video

01:23:53   or whatever it was called?

01:23:54   You know, like the one where they demoed it

01:23:56   and they showed off the office, right?

01:23:59   That was their whole thing.

01:24:00   Hey, look, you can watch the office on your iPod.

01:24:02   This was just, I mean, I've had iPods before and stuff,

01:24:05   but this one was just so good for me.

01:24:07   Like I remember it was a Christmas gift

01:24:10   and I remember convincing my mom.

01:24:14   I must've been like,

01:24:15   maybe like 17 or 18 at the time.

01:24:18   I convinced her that like really the only way

01:24:20   for me to benefit from this for Christmas

01:24:21   is like I should put some video on it in advance

01:24:23   'cause we weren't gonna be at home that Christmas.

01:24:26   So I got like an extra few days

01:24:28   of just playing with the device before Christmas,

01:24:30   which I always think back fondly to that.

01:24:34   And then also I was working in a supermarket now,

01:24:36   like my first job,

01:24:38   and I would take my video iPod to work with me

01:24:42   and during break, I would watch like video podcasts

01:24:47   or video shows or maybe even like movies

01:24:51   on the video iPod on my break.

01:24:53   And I had this like weird deal.

01:24:54   I would work on a Saturday, I was working in a supermarket

01:24:57   and I would get like a 90 minute break because I was 18.

01:25:02   It was like a thing that they had.

01:25:03   Everybody else just got like an hour,

01:25:05   but because of the amount of hours I was working.

01:25:07   - Child labor laws.

01:25:08   - Yeah, I may have been like 17.

01:25:10   Actually, I think I was 17 then.

01:25:11   - Yeah.

01:25:12   - I think that was what it was.

01:25:13   It was like, 'cause you can get a job here

01:25:14   from the age of 16.

01:25:16   - 'Cause the English had some problems with child labor,

01:25:18   you know, so they put in some child labor laws.

01:25:20   - All right, didn't know that.

01:25:21   Thanks for letting me know.

01:25:22   Between 16 and 18, you get longer breaks.

01:25:25   And so it was kind of funny.

01:25:26   I worked there until maybe I was 19,

01:25:28   but nobody really paid attention.

01:25:30   So I always got those long breaks, which was pretty great.

01:25:33   And so I would take my 90 minute break.

01:25:36   I'd have something to eat and then I'd go watch

01:25:37   like a video or two for like an hour or so

01:25:41   in the break room.

01:25:42   So I love my video.

01:25:44   I thought that was such a great thing.

01:25:45   And with Steven's help, I'm rebuilding one.

01:25:48   We got one, bought one online

01:25:50   and I've replaced the internals of it.

01:25:53   And now I got a new click wheel

01:25:54   'cause the click wheel doesn't work.

01:25:55   Got a blue click wheel.

01:25:56   So I'm making a weird, wonderful Frankenstein version of it.

01:26:00   - Fantastic.

01:26:02   Cameron asks, "Who calls who on Skype prior to recording?

01:26:06   Is it awkward before starting to record?"

01:26:09   Couple of things on this.

01:26:10   We don't use Skype anymore.

01:26:12   - Nope.

01:26:13   - We use Zoom.

01:26:14   And so now nobody calls anyone.

01:26:18   - Yeah, Zoom has a link.

01:26:19   You just go to the link.

01:26:20   Sometimes I'm there first, mostly Myke's there first

01:26:24   because mostly my son is now going to school on Mondays.

01:26:30   It's five minutes after we normally start recording.

01:26:33   So I'm starting a little bit later

01:26:35   so that we don't have like the sound

01:26:36   of a garage door opening during the podcast.

01:26:38   We do this for you, everybody.

01:26:41   And so I'm on there usually after Myke, but not always.

01:26:44   And then-

01:26:45   - So there's always a ghost.

01:26:46   - It's not awkward because a ghost, we make a ghost noise.

01:26:50   Because the second person comes in silently.

01:26:53   So you're sitting there with, you're in the Zoom room

01:26:56   and you're sitting there doing your work

01:26:57   and then suddenly somebody else appears

01:26:59   and it can be startling.

01:26:59   So instead we do a, ooh, haunted Zoom room.

01:27:04   - And this started because I think

01:27:06   once we switched over to Zoom,

01:27:08   Jason appeared once and scared the bejesus out.

01:27:10   - I scared you.

01:27:11   - 'Cause I wasn't aware of the fact

01:27:14   that I would not be told that Jason was joining the call.

01:27:17   So now we do a little ghost noise

01:27:20   and there's never any awkwardness

01:27:21   because we're really good friends.

01:27:23   So we always take a few minutes to chat.

01:27:25   Like I can imagine if we were just work colleagues.

01:27:28   - Hello Myke, how was your weekend?

01:27:30   - How was your weekend?

01:27:32   Mondays, am I right?

01:27:34   I've got a big case of Mondays.

01:27:34   - Oh man, I hate Mondays.

01:27:36   - Did you see the cake in the break room today?

01:27:39   - Whose birthday is it?

01:27:40   I hope it's not Sandra.

01:27:42   I don't like Sandra.

01:27:44   - That's what it would be like if we were colleagues,

01:27:45   but we're not, we're friends.

01:27:46   So we just hang out.

01:27:48   - I prefer bagels anyway.

01:27:49   Hey, how about the weather?

01:27:51   - In this economy?

01:27:54   Paul asks, final question today.

01:27:57   Would you consider putting a pop socket

01:27:58   directly onto your iPad mini and using it without a case?

01:28:01   It would be a more comfortable potentially,

01:28:04   but not have a stand on it.

01:28:06   - Well, let me tell you Paul,

01:28:07   no seriously this question is for you Myke.

01:28:09   - I mean, so here's the funny thing, Jason.

01:28:11   Originally this question was directed at you

01:28:13   and I removed you from the question

01:28:14   because I knew you would have no answer.

01:28:16   - Paul, I will never use a pop socket for anything ever.

01:28:19   Myke.

01:28:20   - Blood pop sockets on my phone,

01:28:22   I don't want to put one on my iPad.

01:28:24   The iPad is just easy to hold the way it is

01:28:26   and I like the case on it.

01:28:27   I like the, and I, I would not like not having

01:28:31   the really easy way to stand it up.

01:28:32   Maybe you could put a pop socket on the iPad

01:28:35   in such a way you could stand it,

01:28:36   but then it's probably not going to be in a good place

01:28:39   for holding it.

01:28:39   This isn't something I've really thought of.

01:28:42   I like the case and there's someone can convince me

01:28:45   otherwise, but that's where I am right now.

01:28:47   - I'm going to get a lot of questions now

01:28:49   about why I don't like pop sockets.

01:28:50   And generally the answer is I don't want to stick something

01:28:52   on my, on my devices.

01:28:54   I just don't.

01:28:54   - Back safe ones now.

01:28:56   - Don't want it.

01:28:57   - If you'd like to send in a question

01:29:00   for an episode of upgrade,

01:29:01   just send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade

01:29:03   or use question mark ask upgrade

01:29:05   in the relay FM members discord,

01:29:06   which you can get access to.

01:29:08   If you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus.com

01:29:11   and you also get longer ad free episodes

01:29:14   of every single upgrade release every week.

01:29:18   And even if there's extra ones,

01:29:20   you get longer episodes of upgrade of bonus content.

01:29:23   Go to upgrade your wardrobe.com where you can go

01:29:28   and pick up some wonderful upgrade merchandise available

01:29:31   for just one more week.

01:29:33   And before we go today,

01:29:35   let me tell you about another show here on relay FM

01:29:37   called Roboism hosted by Alex Cox and Kathy Campbell.

01:29:41   It explores how artificial intelligence, machine learning

01:29:44   and digital assistance affect our culture.

01:29:46   Explore the humanity behind the bots

01:29:48   that are quickly becoming a part of our everyday life

01:29:51   at relay.fm/robowism or search for Roboism

01:29:54   wherever you get your podcasts.

01:29:57   I would like to thank HPE Tech Talk Things

01:30:00   and Ooni Pizza Ovens for their support

01:30:02   of this week's episode.

01:30:04   And we'll be back next time.

01:30:05   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:30:07   - Heads.

01:30:08   Oh nice.

01:30:11   Some people will get that.

01:30:12   (upbeat music)

01:30:15   (upbeat music)

01:30:17   [Music]