369: The One With How Titles Are Made


00:00:00   [Intro]

00:00:12   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 369.

00:00:17   Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom, Membefall, and Gabi.

00:00:21   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow. Hi Jason!

00:00:24   Hi Myke, how are you?

00:00:26   I'm... good.

00:00:29   Wow, pregnant pause there.

00:00:31   Yeah.

00:00:31   If you asked me how my weekend was, I would say it's going well so far,

00:00:35   because of course we were recording this on Labor Day and holiday.

00:00:38   I'm informed a holiday in America for people who do not work for themselves and pay attention

00:00:45   to the calendar, but I've been informed by my school-going son and my working wife that

00:00:52   they aren't working today. But you know, Upgrade, soldiers on!

00:00:56   I wonder if it's worse that today I thought to myself, "Isn't it a holiday today?"

00:01:01   Definitely not here, it isn't.

00:01:04   So...

00:01:05   No, no.

00:01:05   That's what I've got going on.

00:01:07   It's one of those American holidays. But Upgrade, often, even as a Monday program,

00:01:14   we could often be preempted by holiday programming, but we rarely are, unless one of us is going

00:01:21   somewhere for a long holiday weekend or something. We generally are just gonna blow right past the

00:01:26   conventions of people taking time off and just continue to grind out Upgrade.

00:01:32   Yeah.

00:01:32   We have a #snowtalk question for you, it comes from JD.

00:01:36   When and why did you decide to make show name quotes as opposed to the topic?

00:01:41   So the episodes of every show we have as a quote from something said in the show.

00:01:46   Why do we do that?

00:01:48   I feel like podcasts have done that for a long time.

00:01:54   And I mean, right?

00:01:57   Like, podcasts have done this for a long time. So that's part of it, is there's sort of a convention.

00:02:01   And the other thing is, so I had this with The Incomparable because The Incomparable

00:02:04   does the same thing. And I had a guy who wrote to me and said, "Why do you have

00:02:09   these titles that have nothing to do with what the show is about?

00:02:11   If you're talking about a movie, your title should be the name of the movie."

00:02:16   And I thought, "Well, one, that's boring."

00:02:19   Right?

00:02:20   It's boring.

00:02:21   It's boring. But we did create in The Incomparable CMS, there is now a field called boring title.

00:02:26   Or sorry, it's title_boring for that guy.

00:02:30   And I still will fill it in. And it shows up in the RSS feed, and it shows up in a bunch of other places.

00:02:35   So after the clever title, below it as a footnote, it says what we actually talked about.

00:02:41   But in general, I find it boring. And for a show like Upgrade, I don't know,

00:02:44   we're not going to do a title with a list of all eight things we talked about, right?

00:02:49   And if you only make it about one or two of them, you're not being fair to the episode,

00:02:54   because the episode is about more than those things.

00:02:56   Yeah, this goes back to Twit, I think. Like so many things, not just in technology podcasting,

00:03:03   in podcasting, go back to Twit. And they would pick out a title based on something said.

00:03:10   And then for Five by Five, they started with an audience submission-based and voting system,

00:03:16   which is what we also do. So mostly now, I believe it's all in our members Discord.

00:03:22   But as we are talking, people are suggesting titles as a bot that collects them.

00:03:26   And then afterwards, if you're listening live, people vote on the titles, and then we

00:03:30   use that voting to help us pick one. We have a little hand in it ourselves.

00:03:35   It's also as well on this show, though, we do break from this rule on occasion.

00:03:41   So drafts, if we have interviews, stuff like that, there are specific episodes that we

00:03:47   name purposefully. There are also some of my shows I don't do it on either.

00:03:53   So like on the Test Drivers, Austin picks the title because Austin is a YouTuber and

00:03:58   comes up with titles for things all the time. So I just say to him, what do you want to call it?

00:04:01   Plus as well, it's harder with the episodes with the shows that aren't recorded live.

00:04:06   Yes.

00:04:07   I'm not very good at writing the titles down as I'm recording.

00:04:11   It's better when we record live because people just suggest lots of things that we say.

00:04:16   Yeah, it's true. And so I appreciate the idea.

00:04:20   The reason I added the boring title field in The Incomparable is I appreciate that people want to,

00:04:25   we have an index, so you can find it anyway, but the people want to know, wait a second,

00:04:29   what is this episode about? And so I realized that enough to do that, but I also

00:04:34   thought it made the show really boring if we did that.

00:04:38   But yeah, when we really are doing something very particular, a very special kind of thing,

00:04:42   like a draft or an interview, we're sure to mention it. And then otherwise we just kind of let it go.

00:04:47   Because the alternative would be like what I do for the Six Colors podcast is it's the date.

00:04:52   That's it, right? Like that's the alternative is you could just give it a date or something

00:04:58   or just the episode number. And that would be super boring. But so if you don't want to label

00:05:05   it as something very specific and you don't want to be super boring, what are you left with?

00:05:09   And I thought that it's a smart convention to just sort of have it be something fun and interesting

00:05:14   and maybe makes you curious about what the episode's going to discuss or as you're listening,

00:05:19   wonder what that thing means. When you hear it, you go, oh, there's the episode title.

00:05:26   And that's about all. Also, I think a lot of people who listen to podcasts don't even

00:05:31   know about episode titles or care. So there's that too.

00:05:33   Maybe we should adopt a friend's style, you know, be like the one with App Store guidelines.

00:05:41   A lot of TV shows do that. Like every episode is sort of phrased the same way.

00:05:45   Could do that. Probably won't.

00:05:49   The one with the new iPhone repeat every year.

00:05:52   The one with how titles are made.

00:05:55   Hey-o. That could actually be the title of this episode. We'll find out.

00:05:59   If you'd like to send in a suggestion to help us open a show, just send out a tweet with

00:06:04   the hashtag Snow Talk or you can use question mark Snow Talk in the Relay FM members discord.

00:06:09   I would like to remind our listeners about our St. Jude campaign. It is September. We are fully in

00:06:15   September now and September is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. For the third consecutive year,

00:06:20   Relay FM is supporting the life-saving mission of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital that

00:06:25   is finding cures and saving children. It is estimated that more than 400,000

00:06:31   children around the world develop cancer every single year and nearly half of them are never

00:06:35   diagnosed. In the United States, more than four out of five children survive cancer,

00:06:40   but in many developing countries, this statistic is reversed with fewer than one out of five

00:06:44   children diagnosed with cancer that will live. Today, the most significant predictor of whether

00:06:49   a child will survive cancer is where they live, which is why in March 2018, St. Jude became the

00:06:54   first and only World Health Organization collaborating center for childhood cancer.

00:07:00   The goal of this initiative is to raise the survival rate of six common childhood cancers

00:07:05   to 60% by 2030. This September, you can help Relay FM surpass over $1 million raised for the

00:07:13   kids of St. Jude during our third annual Relay FM for St. Jude fundraising campaign. Right now,

00:07:20   we are at $184,934.88 as we are recording this, so we are just over $11,000 away from meeting

00:07:32   $1 million raised over the last three years, which is an absolutely incredible, astounding,

00:07:38   wonderful thing that our community has come together to do. You can help us cross this

00:07:43   incredible milestone by making a donation right now at stjude.org/relay. This year,

00:07:49   any donor making a single gift of $100 or more will receive an exclusive Relay FM sticker or

00:07:55   thanks pack at the end of the campaign. And if your company matches donations,

00:08:00   please send us a note and we can have that amount routed through to the campaign. Just email steven@relay.fm.

00:08:06   And the Relay FM podcast-a-thon for St. Jude, oh my God, it's happening so soon,

00:08:11   next Friday, September 17th from 12 to 8 p.m. Eastern Time, that is US Eastern Time at twitch.tv/relayfm.

00:08:22   We are having an increasing amount of meetings and calls and getting everything put together.

00:08:28   Starting this Sunday, I'm going to be breaking down Mega Studio and rebuilding it in its podcast-a-thon

00:08:33   glory. So tune in and help us support St. Jude. Donate today at stjude.org/relay. Let's cure

00:08:40   childhood cancer together. And I will be on that podcast-a-thon with a game show. We actually have

00:08:49   so many people who wanted to be involved, so many Relay hosts that we're recording two game shows.

00:08:53   I'm not quite sure. One will probably go in the podcast-a-thon and one will probably be posted as

00:08:59   a bonus somewhere else. Not quite sure about that, but we recorded the first one this weekend and it

00:09:03   went pretty well, I thought. So I'm looking forward to editing that together and getting it in a

00:09:08   podcast-a-thon shape and appearing on the podcast-a-thon. Biggest ever. Of course.

00:09:15   stjude.org/relay. As a programming note, so it's Monday the 6th right now.

00:09:22   I think it's fair to assume that there is going to be an iPhone event next Tuesday as we record this.

00:09:30   I think the most likely scenario is that on the tomorrow, as we record this, tomorrow or Wednesday

00:09:38   people are going to get emails saying, "Hey, you're cordially invited to watch a video stream."

00:09:44   And at that point we have a problem because we don't have an episode until the event.

00:09:52   And we always like to do a draft. And so during COVID times, we've basically been put in this

00:09:59   position where we have to get to do an extra special bonus draft episode of Upgrade.

00:10:06   So if that is the case, if invites go out this week and the iPhone event is going to be on the

00:10:12   14th of September, which is the expectation, we'll be releasing a bonus episode with a draft

00:10:18   probably on Friday of this week, so the 10th. If that doesn't happen this week, it will happen the

00:10:23   week after probably. Unless of course Apple give a two-week notice, but that's unlikely.

00:10:28   Wouldn't that be nice? So basically what we're saying now is if you hear that Apple is doing

00:10:32   an event next week and you're wondering about the Upgrade draft, just check your podcast player

00:10:38   starting sort of later on Friday or through the weekend or even Monday morning and you will get

00:10:44   that draft episode. And then assuming that they're doing the event on Tuesday, we will be back on

00:10:48   Tuesday after the event to talk about what Apple announced. Well, a little scheduling, a little

00:10:54   housekeeping for podcasts, you know, just there'll be a bonus episode because we don't get two weeks

00:10:58   notice anymore. It will be live streamed as usually we would do with the draft, we'll be

00:11:03   live streaming that and of course we'll be live streaming with the post event coverage. You can

00:11:09   always listen live at relay.fm/live and the chat usually occurs in the relay.fm members Discord,

00:11:15   which you can get access to. If you sign up for Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com,

00:11:19   you get access to the Discord along with tons of other benefits including longer ad-free episodes

00:11:24   of Upgrade every single week. It's true, we talk about all sorts of wacky stuff in our bonus content.

00:11:30   Last week I think we did a really good job of our call-in episode. I was really happy with how it

00:11:36   came together and you wrote a really good article on Six Colors about all of the many, many tools

00:11:43   that we use to put it together. Most of which are by Rogue Amoeba. Yeah, I heard from several people

00:11:50   and I've had this question before about like how did you put that together and so I detailed it in

00:11:55   that post. There's just, there's a lot in there because we are, I mean the short version of it is

00:12:02   I have to use Farrago which is their soundboard app. I use Loopback to create a virtual audio

00:12:10   input that is both my microphone and the output from the Farrago app and I have to set Zoom

00:12:16   to use that as my microphone so that you can hear the sound effects or in this case the clips

00:12:21   as well as my voice. And then I use Audio Hijack which we use normally to record the show but I

00:12:28   have a special block of Audio Hijack recording setup thingies that records my audio on one track

00:12:35   and the sound effects on another track so that instead, and in fact this is what happened after

00:12:40   the show, you're like oh, oh no your file doesn't have the sound effects and I'm gonna have to drop

00:12:45   in all three, you know, two dozen questions by hand and they said no. There's also, look in there,

00:12:51   there's another track that's just the sound effects which is great because then you put that in

00:12:55   and they're all synced up and so we, you know, it's a whole thing we had to do in order to get to it

00:13:01   and if you've ever wondered what one of Myke's Logic projects looks like for Upgrade, there's

00:13:05   a screenshot of it in there too because you were very kind enough to send me a screenshot of your

00:13:10   Logic project. That I was actually benefited from my new weird and wonderful system for this so

00:13:17   I now, since I started recording at my studio, I have this worry that I'm gonna record the show,

00:13:27   I'm gonna go home and then there's an error in the show. Right. And then what am I gonna do, right?

00:13:33   What am I gonna come back and then fix it? Like, you know, I don't live within walking distance,

00:13:38   it's a trip to get here as a commute. So I have created since a new system where all of my

00:13:45   recordings get saved directly to Dropbox. Everything is in Dropbox 100% including like,

00:13:52   what I'm recording right now is being saved by Audio Hijack into a Dropbox folder so it's

00:13:58   constantly uploading. Everything just stays in Dropbox so when you asked me that question,

00:14:05   I was at home and so I was able to just go to the project in my Dropbox folder,

00:14:10   just open it up and take the screenshot because it was all there for me.

00:14:13   That's very nice. And the other thing I detailed in here just for people who are curious, the way

00:14:18   we did the call-in show was with a Dropbox file request which is a feature that they added a few

00:14:24   years ago and I love it so much. It's such a great feature, I think it's kind of unheralded but the

00:14:28   idea is you can take a Dropbox folder basically and make it a file request and or maybe it's the

00:14:36   reverse, you make a file request, it makes a folder in your Dropbox and it gives you a URL that you

00:14:40   can give to people and when they go to that link, they get a little box that says, "drag your file

00:14:48   in here or click to choose it" and it uploads the file and puts it in that folder in your Dropbox.

00:14:55   And I use this for all of my podcast file transfer now. It's really instead of having to deal with

00:15:02   inviting somebody to a shared folder or something like that, you just give them this link and they

00:15:06   upload the file and so we used that for the questions. - Or like hoping someone will upload

00:15:12   their audio and then remember to send you the link when they're done or anything like that.

00:15:16   - Right, right. This is the most efficient way by far to do that and it's a feature that I really

00:15:22   love and it's one of the features really keeping me on Dropbox is this feature I would not, I don't

00:15:28   want to give it up so I'm not going to. - Yeah and what was really great about it because it just

00:15:32   creates a folder in your Dropbox account, Jason could invite me to that folder so I also got all

00:15:37   the clips. - That's right and then so we were doing a real Dropbox kind of workflow there where you

00:15:41   were editing the clips and then I kind of de-noised and de-echoed a couple of the clips and then I put

00:15:48   them in for Argo and it was all just kind of happening in Dropbox. That was a lot of fun. So

00:15:53   that's the behind the scenes of how that worked. I wish it was simpler to do something like playing

00:15:58   audio on a podcast. It's not but we've kind of got a system now so that's good. - One of the apps

00:16:02   that I used that's in the post made by Rogan Beaver is an app called Fission, F-I-S-S-I-O-N,

00:16:07   like nuclear fission. It is a very lightweight MP3 editor. It does a couple of interesting things.

00:16:15   It does but you can do a bunch of MP3 editing without needing to re-encode which is surprisingly

00:16:21   rare as a feature. - That's the biggest feature I would say is that everything else when if you

00:16:26   have an edit you need to make to an MP3 you've got to like go back to the original or if you

00:16:30   don't have the original you have to convert it into a lossless file and then edit it and then

00:16:35   save it back out so you're double encoding it and it's no good. Fission just edits the MP3. It never

00:16:41   converts it into another format. - So you're not going to change the quality of the audio or

00:16:45   anything and it's an app that I use for very like just very quick lightweight editing tasks like for

00:16:50   what I was doing with the clips it's just like cutting the ends off them or you know like cutting

00:16:54   out maybe a gap or two. Well, Rogan Beaver just announced that this application which was their

00:17:03   last app available in the Mac App Store will no longer be available in the Mac App Store. I'd like

00:17:08   to read a quote from Rogan Beaver. Despite a decade of feedback from countless developers and users

00:17:14   Apple has made scant few changes and the store remains beset with issues. When you couple the

00:17:20   many shortcomings and issues of Apple's restrictive policies that preclude most of our software from

00:17:25   appearing there the Mac App Store is clearly a poor fit for us. With the removal of Fission we

00:17:31   no longer have any products within the Mac App Store. - Yep, it's you know it's like Apple was

00:17:39   making an effort to get some people in the Mac App Store but it didn't really seem to change the

00:17:46   trajectory. When the Mac App Store started I think all of us thought it was going to follow

00:17:52   the trajectory of the iOS App Store and it was going to be a big deal and it was going to drive

00:17:58   Mac software sales and it was going to be a great place for Mac developers to go and it's turned out

00:18:03   to not be that and in fact after the last few years maybe even the last few months but definitely

00:18:14   the last few years I'm starting to think that the lesson the Mac App Store has taught us

00:18:19   is that the only reason anybody puts up with the iOS App Store is because there's no alternative

00:18:27   and when there's an alternative nobody puts up with the app store right like that you could

00:18:32   interpret the reaction the Mac App Store has gotten to be an indictment of the fact that

00:18:39   the iOS App Store is only successful because it's the only game in town. - They should do what

00:18:45   Microsoft's doing I think with Windows 11 just everything can be in the App Store doesn't and

00:18:50   you can use your own payment processors it's just this is the place you go to get apps. - Well they

00:18:55   basically turned it into a catalog of Windows software instead of a curated hosted by the vendor

00:19:03   store they turned it into a catalog. - They're still doing curation though like they Microsoft is doing

00:19:09   curation there will be a curated part but the idea is just like no matter who you are like what type

00:19:15   of app you make I mean it's eventually going to be Android apps as well you can just put it on the

00:19:20   on the Windows App Store I think it's called the Microsoft Store I don't remember what it's called

00:19:25   it's one of those names but it's just available and you can just go there and get it you know like

00:19:29   like Adobe's putting all their apps in it but they're going to continue using their own payment

00:19:33   processors I think that's the right way to go just this is the one place for software but Apple's not

00:19:40   going to do that. - Nope. - This is slightly follow-up but also a topic Apple have delayed their CSAM

00:19:48   detection tools this is a quote from Apple like a press quote last month we announced plans for

00:19:54   features intended to help protect children from predators who use communication tools to recruit

00:19:59   and exploit them and limit the spread of child sexual abuse material based on feedback from

00:20:05   customers advocacy groups researchers and others we have decided to take additional time over the

00:20:10   coming months to collect input and make improvements before releasing these critical important child

00:20:16   safety features did you see this coming? - Well it's hard it's always hard to say exactly what Apple

00:20:23   is going to do with issues like this and whether they're going to just kind of grit their teeth

00:20:28   or whether they're going to delay it and not tell anybody or whether they're going to actually delay

00:20:32   it but so I was a little surprised but at the same time this was the thing they should have done

00:20:38   so I'm glad that they did it because this rollout was a disaster like it was a disaster on all

00:20:46   fronts it was a disaster because they got their messaging wrong they conflated features that they

00:20:51   shouldn't have conflated and that led to confusion and they had to do the many FAQ files and continue

00:20:56   furnishing various executives up the chain to explain how it worked and then they have all

00:21:02   these groups who are experts in this field saying the neural hash thing has a lot of problems and

00:21:08   and we are skeptical that you can actually use it in this way and you know users being upset about

00:21:14   the idea of Apple having software on their device that looks at their looks at their images even

00:21:20   though it Apple was like no but it's in the pipeline it's in the pipeline right because

00:21:24   there's a disconnect between what Apple as we talked about a few weeks ago what Apple views

00:21:28   this feature as being and what it what it is or at least how many other people view this feature so

00:21:34   I think it's really smart of them to basically say not yet we're listening we know this is a problem

00:21:45   they what they didn't do is say they aren't going to do it they said they're going to

00:21:49   wait and collect input and make improvements right so that's good because all they've been doing is

00:21:59   damage control since they announced this thing it is an indictment of the fact that they could

00:22:06   have done this in a different way and been instead of just surprising everybody with this feature

00:22:10   that did not need to be a surprise they could have announced that they had they were working on this

00:22:15   and they could have worked with people in the field both on the technical side and in the in

00:22:21   in the CSAM you know field in general to get more ahead of this but instead they took so many people

00:22:27   by surprise which seems totally unnecessary so you know it's a good thing that they're unwinding it

00:22:33   but why did they get in this position to begin with it wasn't like a cool product right like

00:22:38   wow so cool so thank you for keeping it secret you know surprise like you know they as you say

00:22:45   they should have engaged with people on it or they should have positioned this as a thing that they

00:22:50   were looking for feedback on and like I've seen some people saying like oh they you know they

00:22:55   they were looking for feedback no they weren't apple considered this done yeah it was done when

00:23:01   they showed it off they were not uh they were not expecting feedback they were expecting like we

00:23:06   talked about before they they were expecting look how smart we are yeah they were expecting praise

00:23:12   for how they did this amazing technology that that totally uh it eliminates the idea of scanning on

00:23:21   the server and therefore is a huge user privacy win that still stops the bad guys and everybody

00:23:27   lets praise apple and uh it was a swing and a miss right like that's not what happened at all

00:23:33   they're having a similar bit of pushback right now I've seen to the um id card thing that they're

00:23:40   starting to roll out I've been seeing some people uh I've seen neil i patel has been having some

00:23:45   great I've been seeing him talk about it on twitter a bunch you know just saying like the

00:23:49   idea of putting your id card uh on your device seems like a concerning thing to many people so

00:23:59   I'm a little more skeptical of this one of the backlash to it because first off apple announced

00:24:03   this in june and it's like people are bored and they're trying to gin up something now that it's

00:24:09   september um because I think it comes from a potentially deliberate misunderstanding of how

00:24:17   this feature works because my understanding is that the id card feature is an nfc feature it's

00:24:23   a tap to present feature and that there's nothing on the phone itself that is that you have to hand

00:24:30   your phone over and you don't have to unlock your phone like this feature seems to have been built

00:24:35   to address all of the criticism that's coming two and a half months later after the announcement

00:24:42   about the feature and so you know you got to look at the details and I understand the idea of like

00:24:48   building a feature where you have to unlock your phone and hand it to the cops it's like well

00:24:52   that's terrible you shouldn't do that but this feature doesn't appear to be that this feature

00:24:56   appears to allow you to present necessary information and it's only it's a limited set

00:25:02   of information to prove your identity and through a tap and so in the end you know the the cop that

00:25:10   pulls you over isn't going to have an nfc reader so you're just going to need to show them your

00:25:14   your drive your actual driver's license but you may be able to tap to do this at the airport

00:25:18   that's sort of what they're going for here so I thought it was interesting because a lot of

00:25:21   the criticism I saw about the id feature seemed to be stuff that is actually not what's happening

00:25:27   but again it's similar in the sense that maybe apple didn't do as good a job as they needed to do

00:25:32   to to address potential issues and I don't remember if there was a WWDC session about this or not that

00:25:42   would also be on them that if they if they didn't detail all the ways that they've anticipated all

00:25:47   of these issues then that's a that's a mistake I saw a piece that speculated about whose fault this

00:25:53   is I forget who wrote the piece I don't know if it was Mark Gurman or somebody else but it was it was

00:25:59   speculating or maybe it was Ben Thompson it was it was basically is this a communication failure

00:26:04   or is this a because they've got a new head of communications at apple or is this a you know

00:26:10   technical failure policy failure something like that and I think it's absolutely a communication

00:26:17   failure it may also be those other things but the way this stuff has been communicated especially

00:26:22   the CSAM thing but you could potentially even say it about the driver's license thing I think is

00:26:28   like they could have done a vastly better job if they had somebody in there who was saying this is

00:26:35   not this is how this is going to be perceived and I don't think being a head of communications and

00:26:40   they have a new one I don't think the job of the head of communications is to be a nice conduit for

00:26:50   whatever the people on the inside of apple want to send out through the tube to the people outside of

00:26:55   apple like that's not the job of a head of communications the job of the head of communications

00:26:59   is to say you need to understand how this is going to be perceived we need to do this rollout in a

00:27:05   very specific way so that we anticipate what's going to happen and prevent it from happening and

00:27:13   they aren't doing that like the CSAM thing that's a communications failure it may also be a technical

00:27:18   failure is it the fault of the new head of communications I don't know because I don't know

00:27:22   if the head of new head of communications was like waving their arms and saying no no no no no

00:27:26   don't do it like this and they were told no we're doing it like this or whether they were like yeah

00:27:30   sure great we'll roll this out nobody will care because that is that would show if that's the case

00:27:36   a fundamental misunderstanding of how apple announcements are regarded by the world so I

00:27:42   don't know I'm a little more skeptical about the id thing because I feel like that's a little bit

00:27:47   of just trying to make while while you know while we're getting on apple for stuff that they

00:27:52   announced in june let's get let's get on them for this whereas it may not be that big a deal but

00:27:57   uh but still regardless this is an issue yeah I don't get lost in the weeds on that that was a

00:28:04   aside from me I I put a link in the show notes to what neil i betel said people can read it and

00:28:09   make their own uh mind up about it but getting back to the CSAM thing itself I'm happy they're

00:28:15   doing this like if they do genuinely believe that they can make the system better honestly I think

00:28:25   that they're gonna go away and try and find a better way to communicate it I think that's

00:28:29   what they're gonna do here yeah I think they want to lock down the technical issues right because

00:28:36   it's unclear to me like there's somebody who wrote a paper about neural hash neural hashing of photos

00:28:45   and stuff who said that they they felt like apple's system was ignoring all of the things that they

00:28:53   wrote about about how the system didn't work and there's a real question about like what's the

00:28:58   truth about the people who say technically this is problematic and when apple says it's fine and is

00:29:04   it because the people who technically say it's problematic don't understand fully what apple is

00:29:09   doing here or is it because it is problematic and apple didn't anticipate it and wasn't paying

00:29:15   attention to the researchers on the outside who are writing about this stuff and so that that's

00:29:19   part of it too it's not just about re-communicating this and rolling it out in a different way

00:29:24   but it's also about you know engaging with these experts and trying to you know even if they

00:29:30   disagree like understanding what their argument is and being able to counter it and ideally you

00:29:36   get them on your side and say oh well now we've seen what apple is doing and they made a couple

00:29:39   of changes and we actually think that this is a good approach that's the ideal end goal is to kind

00:29:44   of co-opt your critics and have them say well now that we've seen it we actually like it i will say

00:29:49   again you could have probably brought them in there's no reason you couldn't have done this

00:29:54   before you announced it or as you announced it in general before you gave out specifics but we're

00:30:00   here we are where we are now so we'll see but i think it's more than just a communication challenge

00:30:06   because they do have some technical criticisms of how they did it in terms of false positives

00:30:11   and things like that i do wonder with this feature if it's one of those situations that like the lid

00:30:17   has been lifted so there's kind of it like you know like the jar's been opened now you can't you

00:30:23   can't put it back in because is it always going to be considered like no matter what way they talk

00:30:28   about it like this is the thing that apple's using to spy on us right has it gotten away from them

00:30:34   in a way that they wouldn't be able to control even if it comes back comes back later with like

00:30:40   hey look at all these great things that we did instead what do you think i i don't know

00:30:45   we've talked about this so much like this is a this is a misstep they're resetting they have

00:30:52   the opportunity to they have the opportunity to run and hide if they want to right this could be

00:30:57   one of those things that just disappears and when it comes back later it's a totally different

00:31:01   solution um and then and the way they'll they'll spin it is well we listened right but i don't know

00:31:09   what they're gonna do and i don't know where they're gonna go with this because honestly

00:31:12   because the root of this also seems baffling right when when it was announced where our response was

00:31:17   like why now like is this in anticipation of some other move that they're gonna make or some

00:31:23   regulation that's gonna come in and so i i don't entirely understand other than speculation about

00:31:29   it the root of this whole thing so now they've pulled it back where do we go from here i don't

00:31:36   know yeah i have no idea but they they messed it up yeah oh yeah this is a this is a complete

00:31:45   unforced error i think and and again the the fact that this is not a secret product

00:31:53   this is not an iphone like the rollout of this just it didn't need to be this way like for them

00:32:04   to i think it shows you that they're still within apple a lot of these super secretive we're going

00:32:09   to go our own way we're not going to look at what anybody else is doing you know this attitude that

00:32:15   they've got and in this case like for completely unnecessary reasons and it bit them so are they

00:32:23   going to make changes because of that i don't know it would seem like you probably should but i do

00:32:28   think it goes back to probably a level of hubris about like they're just so proud of how clever

00:32:35   their solution to this problem is that they want to spring it on the world and then they got laid

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00:34:36   relay fm so there's been a bunch of app store related changes uh that i want to go through well

00:34:44   there was one big one everyone knows what we're talking about it's the okay to change from in japan

00:34:49   we're going to talk about that in a little bit because there's some other stuff that we need to

00:34:53   get through before so i wanted to give just a quick recap of the thing from last week just so

00:34:58   we can set the stage for the many changes to the app store that's being demanded by many governments

00:35:04   and in and institutions around the world so last week's thing the thing we spoke about on the last

00:35:10   episode is the u.s developers thing this was the class action lawsuit that basically changed nothing

00:35:17   apple made a bunch of clarifications and confirmations like hey you're allowed to email

00:35:21   your own customers if you want and offer developers cash to prevent them from suing apple in the future

00:35:27   right so that was that thing yeah then five days later the government of south korea passed a law

00:35:34   that is intended to force apple and google to allow for third-party payment options in third-party apps

00:35:42   for in-app purchases so once you've downloaded an app from the app store if you want to pay for

00:35:47   something inside of that application you should be able to use any payment service either google or

00:35:53   apples or you can use your own right like think fortnight right like what fortnight did that whole

00:35:59   thing one of the reasons we're here right because of everything that epic did companies that do not

00:36:05   comply with this rule will be fined up to three percent of their south korea revenue so everything

00:36:11   a company the company makes in that country in a year they can be fined three percent of that total

00:36:16   this is a quote from apple about this ruling the telecommunications business act will put users who

00:36:23   purchase digital goods from other sources at risk of fraud undermine their privacy protections make

00:36:28   it difficult to manage their purchases and features like ask to buy and parental controls will become

00:36:34   less effective we believe user trust in apps or purchases will decrease as a result of this

00:36:39   legislation from this quote doesn't seem like they're going to fight it right like i was

00:36:45   expecting apple's quote to be like you know like ah you know as they will do sometimes that they

00:36:50   will say that they will try and push back on something but it doesn't sound like that's the

00:36:55   case maybe they know they don't have the opportunity to do it i don't know yeah i i mean it does show

00:37:01   you that like if a if a law gets passed they're gonna they can complain all they want but they

00:37:05   have to follow it right they want to continue doing business in that country right it's right

00:37:10   and then there's limitations and they can push back and they can negotiate but i guess what i

00:37:14   would say is i don't i think this is not as big a deal um it's also interesting that this is a law

00:37:20   that targeted google primarily yeah okay um and so it's probably a pro samsung kind of thing anyway

00:37:28   it hits apple however i'm not convinced about the implications of this being enormous mostly because

00:37:36   it's just in korea and while the ball may continue rolling like i can see ways you know how so russia

00:37:43   said you got to pre-install apps and apple didn't pre-install apps apple brought up a thing during

00:37:48   the launch process that says here are russian apps would you like to download them and then you can

00:37:53   just not and and russia's regulators apparently decided that was good enough right like that's

00:37:58   that's all they were looking at so i which i think it's kind of impressive that apple convinced them

00:38:03   to be okay with that and not be like no they have to download they have to preload so what does

00:38:08   apple do in korea i think it's going to be some more of this kind of very careful artful

00:38:15   implementation that makes it makes them within the law without it being something that's easy

00:38:22   on developers so like for example i don't think this law says anything about what like apple

00:38:31   could say hey developers there's a new law in korea if you want to implement your own outside

00:38:38   of apple in-app purchases for korea here's what you need to do you need to turn off your app in

00:38:43   korea and make a new app separate that implements the in-app you know your your out of app purchasing

00:38:50   system and submit that for only korea and then we'll approve it and it'll be limited to korea

00:38:56   and you also have to i mean it's unclear it's like you also have to have in-app purchases as an

00:39:00   option because it you know the law doesn't say we can't require that but you also can offer out of

00:39:06   app purchases but only in the korean version of your app which you need to keep separate right

00:39:10   now that's jerky and makes the job much harder for developers but apple's not limited like apple

00:39:18   my understanding is apple can do that right they can make it as painful as possible for you to take

00:39:23   advantage of this law in korea and the net result what i'm saying is the net result is probably

00:39:30   going to be that most app developers unless they've got an enormous amount of in-app purchase revenue

00:39:34   in korea are just not going to bother and they're going to keep it the way it is and keep their app

00:39:39   in the korean store and those who want to go through this apple's not going to make it easy

00:39:42   for them apple's going to do the letter of the law and nothing more that's my guess unless apple

00:39:47   thinks that this is going to keep happening um but even then if another country passed a law like

00:39:53   this apple would say okay everybody hey developers now that app that you've got in korea you can also

00:39:59   make it available in this other country because it's the law there or maybe not maybe they would

00:40:03   say hey app developers make another version of your app that's just for this country because

00:40:08   again they don't need to go along with this and i and their attitude seems to be very much that

00:40:12   they're not going to so i'm not convinced this is going to be a huge deal right because it's in korea

00:40:17   it's this one very particular law and i feel like apple has enough uh weight to put on their app

00:40:23   store processes that it will be an unpleasant thing that you have to do in order to get your

00:40:30   own payment system in that's my theory so i agree with you but here's the question i'll pose right

00:40:37   my understanding and especially has come from the u.s thing is that most of apple's money from

00:40:44   in-app purchases is generated by a small amount of companies yeah because there are a small amount of

00:40:51   companies that make the most money yeah i would assume that all of those companies would be the

00:40:57   exact companies to put effort in to do this thing yep and so i don't know how much app store revenue

00:41:05   is generated by south korea i'm sure it's a chunk i don't know how big a portion but they could start

00:41:11   to feel it from there and my expectation would be if apple are going to have some level of

00:41:18   infrastructure in place to make this the case for south korea or you know a rule or whatever right

00:41:25   they're going to put something into effect to make this possible for people sure to to comply

00:41:32   with in south korea other countries could look at it and be like yeah we'll do that

00:41:36   well that's possible but i would say i don't think apple has to build anything here this is

00:41:42   essentially a policy decision this is not rejecting apps that go outside for payment

00:41:48   it is possible that they'll be like oh well look apple's complying in korea so we can do it here

00:41:55   and they'll just do what they did in korea and that's probably true and they probably will do

00:41:59   that so if other countries want to do this like we potentially have a template for what it would

00:42:04   look like i guess what i'm saying is apple's not going to make it easy on anybody i predict like

00:42:10   that that they're going to make it they're going to drag their feet they're going to make they're

00:42:15   going to follow the letter of the law but nothing more than that because that seems to be their

00:42:19   approach to all of this stuff so uh it's possible that they won't you know maybe they'll be bigger

00:42:23   than that and be like okay well you can make it so that if your locale is korea but my guess if i

00:42:30   were i mean honestly if i were employed to do this at apple i would be like no separate korean app

00:42:34   walled off we want to we don't want to see any of that code that could potentially be used anywhere

00:42:40   else in the world separate approval separate approval you've got to flag it that you're doing

00:42:45   it for korea and then we'll go through our process and then we'll approve it but yes i mean if you're

00:42:50   making millions and millions and millions of dollars equivalent in korea um then of course

00:42:57   you're going to do this right if you if you can claw that money back i just feel like what apple

00:43:01   will try to do is make it that everybody who makes a little bit of money in korea with in-app

00:43:05   purchase is going to be like nah it's not worth it it's not worth going through it and i feel like

00:43:11   the apple will make it so that it's not worth it for most developers to to even follow this approach

00:43:16   so again because there are so many of these things going on this rule this law is just for in-app

00:43:23   purchase doesn't have any requirement for other purchases so if you are a paid upfront app you

00:43:29   use apple and google's payment systems if you're a paid upfront app that uses in-app purchase you pay

00:43:35   on google or apple's system but then the in-app purchase can then be from a third party same if

00:43:41   you're free right in some ways ideologically i think i agree with this ruling like it's also not

00:43:49   asking for third-party absolutes or anything like there's always something that i get stuck on which

00:43:53   is like after the initial purchase after apple was delivered the application you know why should they

00:44:00   have the rights to any purchase that between what is now the customer of this company you know like

00:44:09   why do they continue to keep getting a cut if they're not providing anything for these developers

00:44:15   which a lot of times they're not providing anything for these developers you know like

00:44:19   stuff is coming down from the servers of epic or whoever right why do apple keep why do apple have

00:44:27   the right to continue taking 30 of every in-app purchase well i mean what you're really doing is

00:44:33   saying why does apple have the right to take money out of transactions on the iphone because

00:44:39   the truth is the business model today is largely your app is free and then you pay inside the app

00:44:46   so if you make in-app purchases free it is going to potentially take a huge amount of revenue away

00:44:55   from apple now so then the question is like what is what is apple what rights does apple have to

00:45:02   skim all transactions that occur in its universe and you know apple would tell you that they

00:45:09   created all this value with the iphone i would argue that the iphone's value was also created

00:45:12   by the app developers that without an app store the iphone isn't a success uh certainly not the

00:45:18   success it's been that apple takes 30 percent or now sometimes 15 of what developers have made for

00:45:23   the last decade plus but imagine a world where developers took 30 of iphone revenue for the last

00:45:30   decade plus right it's it's more and they don't get that so even though that they're a huge

00:45:36   participant in this and it comes back like what we were talking before it comes back to the fact

00:45:41   that apple has an attitude and i think it comes from the corporate culture and i think it is based

00:45:45   in steve jobs and the post almost going out of business apple which is take every dollar off the

00:45:51   table and developers are lucky that we um tolerate them and that apple creates all value and

00:46:00   developers are um and then this was steve jobs's attitude about third-party developers way back

00:46:05   before the app store which is developers are kind of parasites living off the goodness of apple i've

00:46:09   said this before it's absolutely with steve jobs's attitude is everybody who's involved in the apple

00:46:14   ecosystem that isn't apple is just taking money away from apple that belongs to apple because

00:46:20   apple really created everything that is good and that everything that remains it's just like you

00:46:25   get some scraps what you you should be happy that we're giving you you know your percentage here

00:46:29   because we could take even more because really it's all about us and that attitude still exists

00:46:33   within apple and the only reason they're changing it at all seems to be because uh they're feeling

00:46:38   the pressure so you know why why does apple charge rent like i i think apple's in-app purchases system

00:46:45   is really good and that apple should compete with with alternatives based on when they say look the

00:46:55   reason we do it the way we do it is because we want to keep our customers safe and they said this

00:46:59   in another thing that we're going to be talking about in a minute they said this they said

00:47:03   like people like the safety that they feel in the app store and and and working with apple well

00:47:08   that's true but there's also no alternative like you could compete on that you could compete as

00:47:14   apple and say our way is easier our way is safer you've got your credit card at apple apple charges

00:47:19   your credit card apple doesn't leak your information to other people this is why you should

00:47:23   use apple system and they could also very easily unless a law bars it and i doubt a law ever would

00:47:29   say if they open it up to third parties you also need to offer apple's method so choose you can use

00:47:37   apple's method or your method but you let them choose and then they're competing on features

00:47:42   they're competing on trust in apple they're competing on ease of the transaction not having

00:47:48   to go re-enter your cards somewhere because it's already stored at apple and developers are going

00:47:52   to like that too so you know that's that's my feeling is that apple ought to compete based on

00:47:58   the quality of their service and not on uh just taking rent essentially on every transaction that

00:48:05   exists because although the the counter argument is always going to be oh yeah but apple did create

00:48:11   this ecosystem apple does work on you know they build the apis and they build these phones and

00:48:15   all of that and so why should they not get a cut my counter argument would be that the developers

00:48:21   who created all the apps on the platform are also a participant in the success of the iphone and

00:48:26   apple isn't sharing any of its iphone revenue with them right and so for me this seems like uh that

00:48:35   apple is double dipping essentially they they are they are acting as if they're the only creators of

00:48:40   value in the in the ecosystem and they're not and so why not and and that they're obviously not

00:48:46   confident in their ability to compete on functionality which i think is dumb because

00:48:49   i think they can so yeah i i am not a fan of apple mandatorily taking plus it degrades the user

00:48:57   experience right leaving aside the fact that uh we're going to be talking about reader apps in a

00:49:02   little bit and like that is a a terrible user experience too so so yeah if if i have to choose

00:49:08   i'm going to say i don't think that apple should have to mandatorily take a percentage of sales

00:49:14   inside apps i think they should have to offer their system and compete on merit john grubber

00:49:20   wrote a uh a blog post about this and he was talking about kind of cutting into some of the

00:49:26   stuff that they were saying around privacy and you know like they're talking about like parental

00:49:31   controls that kind of stuff and he mentioned and something that i agree with apple could just

00:49:38   create a bunch of apis and tools for payment processes to work with inside their own systems

00:49:44   if they wanted to yeah this is this is one of those false equivalencies where where they're

00:49:49   like oh but if we did that there would be no security it's like or you could build security

00:49:55   but that makes their argument less dramatic right you could build in uh all of the same apis for

00:50:03   monitoring transactions and for parental controls and say you have to implement these for your

00:50:08   payment system right they could totally do that unless the law bars it but it doesn't seem like

00:50:12   it does it would be part of like being on the platform it's like yeah you can keep your money

00:50:16   but you have to tell us you know you have to check and see if a parental control is on this

00:50:20   because we're not going to let people who are you know kids are not allowed to drain their parents

00:50:25   credit card they have we have a system for that and you have to hook into it but they would have

00:50:29   to do the work but they could do the work they could absolutely do the work so that was south

00:50:34   korea and we were like oh man more going on oh little did we know that it was more coming

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00:51:58   insurance has been creeping up or whatever and and they're boiling that frog it's a parable they don't

00:52:02   really boil the frog um you end up with a uh an idea of like how does your thing compare has it

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00:53:03   for their support of this show and relay fm so apple announced via press release that they have

00:53:09   come to an agreement with the japan fair trade commission to end an investigation about the app

00:53:14   store i've got some quotes that i want to read and maybe we can from this press release maybe we can

00:53:20   stop and talk about them as we go through the update will allow developers of reader apps to

00:53:26   include an in-app link to their website for users to set up or manage an account one do you want to

00:53:32   stop already or can i continue single well i think it's an important point and we'll get we can get

00:53:39   to in more detail later but the and a lot of the people who are saying wow this is a big change

00:53:43   i think maybe missed this which is it is a link so this basically solves the netflix opening or

00:53:52   spotify or whatever opening screen where it says log in and you're like well how do i get an account

00:53:57   and there's a you can put a link the dumbest rule ever of all time where they're like well you can

00:54:02   link but not to anything that suggests anything about payment and all that and they're basically

00:54:06   dropping that and saying yes you can get one you get one link for setup and managing an account one

00:54:13   single link yeah well single comes later at this point they said and it's confusing that they say

00:54:20   it in different ways but and and link right it's a it's a singular we're already at a singular here

00:54:25   okay continue apple will apply this change globally to all reader apps on the store

00:54:30   hooray this was a relief because like let's not continue to make this increasingly more

00:54:35   complicated right let's not let's not make a japan rule you can have a link in japan you can have a

00:54:40   purchase in korea you can have a installed apps in russia but that's it and you can send emails if

00:54:46   you're in america you know yep uh reader apps provide previously purchased content or content

00:54:54   subscriptions for digital magazines newspapers books audio music and video yes because developers

00:55:00   of reader apps do not offer in-app digital goods and services for purchase apple agreed with the

00:55:06   jftc to let developers of these apps share a single link to their website to help users set

00:55:11   up and manage their account i have like 20 problems with this sentence uh-huh like they would like to

00:55:20   offer in-app digital goods and services for purchase but you won't let they would developers

00:55:25   of reader apps do offer in-app digital goods but you have to purchase them outside and then they

00:55:30   appear in these applications right and that's where we get the share a single link to their

00:55:36   website to help users set up a manager account so the setup is the important part right because it

00:55:42   can get a bit confusing if earlier on it's like um they're talking about like you know to for men

00:55:47   all that kind of stuff and it gets a bit confusing but basically the way i read this is that you know

00:55:53   you could open the spotify app and then have a link where you could then go and sign up for

00:55:58   spotify then come back and log in right and and right now you could you could currently do it

00:56:05   but what it would do is it would put you on a page that that um you link to that doesn't it cannot

00:56:12   not only can it not mention that you can put in your credit card at spotify.com and sign up that

00:56:16   way and never pay apple it couldn't link to any page that links to any page at all following all

00:56:27   links that mentions your ability to purchase spotify outside of the app store that was the

00:56:34   rule so this rule is you can just link to somewhere it's fine and and so it is big in the sense that

00:56:42   if you're i don't know who this person is but if you're somebody who's like oh spotify that sounds

00:56:47   great i'll download the app i open the app and it says log in and you're like oh no they've outfoxed

00:56:52   me i'm totally confused what do i do i guess i won't use spotify because i don't have an account

00:56:57   and i don't know what i would do well what you do is you go to spotify.com but now there'll be a

00:57:02   link there that says go to spotify.com to sign up for this account and you'll go there and then they

00:57:09   can also put that link when you're logged in and say manage my account on spotify.com and you click

00:57:15   there and or tap there and it will take you to spotify.com and of course both of those links will

00:57:21   allow you to pay put in your credit card and pay as part of the login process so on that level it

00:57:28   is kind of big because it's allowing developers to put us an onboarding workflow in the app again

00:57:36   that allows them to lead a user through setting up a username and password and putting in a credit

00:57:41   card on the web and then going back to the app logging in and they're paying and they're not

00:57:48   paying apple so that's the that's the big change what it doesn't do and you mentioned it these are

00:57:53   reader apps they so kindle is a good example right and and the problem here is that these apps have

00:58:01   overhead they're they're they're reselling things they're they're the middleman and then apple wants

00:58:07   to also be the middleman and apple's 30 takes out all of the profit of the middleman from that or

00:58:16   almost all right and so nobody does it and what this what this specifically says is you know you

00:58:25   still can't do that the one link is there the one link rule is there specifically so that amazon

00:58:32   can't put up a kindle store in their app and when you tap on a book it opens a web page with that

00:58:38   book which you then buy and then it goes back to the kindle app and it downloads it apple's not

00:58:42   allowing anything like that to happen so for subscriptions uh and for sign up for for user

00:58:50   information but that's it before the change goes into effect in early 2022 apple will update its

00:58:58   guidelines and review process to make sure users of reader apps continue to have a safe experience

00:59:03   on the app store again like this is where a lot of the questions start right like what can be at

00:59:10   the end of the link apple going to start reviewing web pages now right like will there be only certain

00:59:17   language you can use i'm sure what i'm sure will they will developers have to create specific types

00:59:23   of pages for uh apple ios customers going to we'll find out apple will also help developers of reader

00:59:32   apps protect users when they link them to an external website to make purchases uh-huh what

00:59:38   does that mean yeah and make purchases i guess that means essentially signing up and putting

00:59:44   in your credit card somewhere my guess is that this is going to be app review like you said are

00:59:52   they going to approve websites i think the answer is yes i think apple is going to want to see the

00:59:56   link and they're going to want to see it in action and that they're going to want and the question is

01:00:01   what are their standards there but they're going to want to approve that link and say yes this is

01:00:06   acceptable use of our one link policy um which is weird right because what are the standards by

01:00:13   which they judge that link what are the rules that you could break on that link i don't know

01:00:18   i've already thought of a few for you okay lamb you you can get a job rejecting things at apple

01:00:24   i guess very exciting go ahead the wording of the link the prominence of the link okay where it

01:00:32   takes you yes what's on the web page the wording of the web page how or if it references apple

01:00:41   how or if it references prices and pricing differences yep that might be it um i'll throw

01:00:50   in a few that they could do okay privacy policy of the website yes payment processor used by the

01:00:58   website just throwing it out there right like this apple could use this as a system to whitelist

01:01:05   very specific companies and payment processors and say we don't think that that this payment

01:01:12   processor is secure not saying they will do that but they could absolutely do that and privacy

01:01:16   policy i think is an interesting one right where there would be like the website needs to we need

01:01:20   to protect our users so if this website has a permissive privacy policy and it's leaking a

01:01:25   bunch of information i'm sorry you need to change your policy or we're not going to let you link to

01:01:29   your own website it could happen like i can imagine there's going to be a bunch of applications as

01:01:35   well like large companies that are currently offering in-app purchase that stop now right

01:01:41   i think about like youtube like you can buy a youtube premium with in-app purchase i actually

01:01:47   think they charge more money if you do but you know yeah this is all like that right this is this is

01:01:54   essentially not solving the problem of per item digital purchases in an app this is solving the

01:02:01   problem of reader apps that have subscriptions because they had to pretend that there was no way

01:02:06   unless you did an in-app purchase which nobody really wants to do and it's not that great

01:02:10   like it it's a difficult business model for for if you're netflix or hulu or anybody else to do

01:02:16   it that way or even youtube like it's it's hard um because a lot of your content your margins are

01:02:21   are such that this is it's a very hard thing to do so you probably don't want to do it

01:02:24   but pretending that there's no way to get to your account is not a great experience so like that's

01:02:33   that's the that's the win here is being able to say not buy a kindle book in an app but to be able

01:02:39   for even for the kindle app to say you know my my amazon account like not allowed until now just to

01:02:48   tap and go out there so it's you know i don't consider this a big win at all i i know that

01:02:54   there are a lot of analysts out there who are sort of like wow this is a huge step on apple's part

01:02:58   this is like the bare minimum that apple should have done many years ago to say wow the user

01:03:05   experience where there's just a login screen and no explanation of how you get an account if you

01:03:09   don't have one because apple wants to get an in-app purchase in this app and otherwise people

01:03:15   are just going to have to wait and figure it out well that's that they should have done that ages

01:03:20   ago so it's the bare minimum when what they should be doing in my opinion is allowing reader apps to

01:03:27   do what those those video apps do because they did change this for one class right you if you

01:03:33   go to amazon prime video that app you can like rent movies in it from amazon and it works so

01:03:39   they they lowered the bar for that one particular class but they haven't done the same here i don't

01:03:45   know so it seems like it seems like a very limited win for for people here well then you know you

01:03:51   mentioned about reader apps i think first we have to get rid of that term because it's an incredibly

01:03:57   arbitrary set of applications that apple have decided they want to give this access to because

01:04:03   there's absolutely zero reason that it could not include gaming subscription services when not

01:04:08   even allowed on the app store right well that that's one of the i think ironies of this is that

01:04:13   reader app has been so distorted because i always viewed a reader app as an app in which you're

01:04:21   reading media that included potentially a for purchase option and they've diluted it to mean

01:04:31   like media consumption apps but not games which is like yeah to your point how is a subscription to a

01:04:40   game streaming service appreciably different than a subscription to netflix like i can tell you

01:04:45   reader apps means strategically beneficial classes of application to sure is what it means because

01:04:52   they put whatever apps they need in there to help them right like spotify has given them trouble now

01:04:58   music's a reader app we want netflix on the apple tv we want amazon prime on the apple tv these are

01:05:04   now reader apps it's just whatever they need it to be right and games uh is not because they want

01:05:11   to not have game streaming services on their platform and they make a lot of money from game

01:05:15   in-app purchases and stuff like that so it's strategically beneficial for them not to have

01:05:20   games classed as a reader app like without the like i just feel like that any type of application

01:05:28   that offers a subscription service that is cross-platform should be allowed to take advantage

01:05:35   of this so this goes to like spotify it goes to microsoft right if they want to do xcloud it goes

01:05:43   to an app like todoist which is a multi-platform tool but is a subscription app that they you can

01:05:51   pay them in many different ways i pay for my todoist subscription on the web they offer an

01:05:56   app purchase but i signed up on the web and i pay there because it's cheaper it used to be and that

01:06:02   was how i signed up for it like i don't you know without the iphone spotify would suffer just the

01:06:09   same as any other like as todoist would suffer like it's i think it's way too complicated for

01:06:14   anybody to try and say like oh this certain application needs this type of system where

01:06:22   others don't i just don't think it's fair to categorize apps in this certain way i just think

01:06:27   if a developer wants to create a cross-platform outside of app store system they should be included

01:06:32   in the ability to add this link if they want to i don't know why there has to be this very specific

01:06:39   type of application that gets classed as reader and that means they get benefits to others don't

01:06:46   yeah plus the they're not a perfect match because some of them are like kindle although there is a

01:06:53   subscription kindle unlimited but basically like something where it's you're buying a book and it's

01:06:59   a or a comic book and it's a one-time purchase of something a la carte is very different than

01:07:05   being a subscriber and being on for for everything like that you just get it you sign up and get it

01:07:12   and yet they've just defined it this way and and apple's attitude toward these categories that

01:07:17   apple defines is very much like so much of apple's responses in this space which is like

01:07:22   look i don't make the rules again reader apps are reader apps right we all agree on that it's like

01:07:27   well no you defined what the reader apps are and you define what those video apps are where you

01:07:31   actually are letting people rent movies or buy movies from amazon using their amazon account

01:07:36   and their amazon credit card you're already doing that for digital goods there may have been a time

01:07:42   where reader apps could have been classed as like types of applications where they are catalogs of

01:07:48   content that the business model cannot work because of licensing fees right if they have to

01:07:56   pay the 30 but the problem is now all of these companies make original content too so that

01:08:02   doesn't work either right like you can't say that for spotify now because they want you to listen to

01:08:07   the podcasts that they own you can't say it for like amazon and audible because they make their

01:08:12   own podcast as well netflix make all their own tv shows right like so they control and own everything

01:08:18   so they are you know it doesn't work like that anymore this is we will make a rule that allows

01:08:22   certain kinds of apps that we decide do this but not anything else that's that's really literally

01:08:28   what it is right it is we have decided and the japan fair trade commission has agreed that for

01:08:37   certain classes of apps we will do this very limited thing and that will get them off our back

01:08:43   and make us look like we're listening to regulators well i just think it should be that the rules

01:08:48   should be pretty simple hey if you want to offer your own payment service and do of all of the mess

01:08:53   that that takes you can put the link in simple as and but we recommend that you use ours for these

01:09:00   20 great reasons yep i think it's pretty clear that wagons are circling around apple like i know

01:09:05   that this has been a thing where like it's been expected this is going to happen you know like

01:09:10   there's been uh you know they everybody's set in front of congress and all that kind of stuff

01:09:13   and we've been talking about it before then that you know like in the community that we're a part

01:09:18   of people have been very aware of these kinds of issues for a long time because smaller companies

01:09:22   and that kind of stuff but i am wondering now more than ever why not just make larger changes rather

01:09:30   than dealing with these like two-bit cases in every single country right like going through

01:09:37   every court in every government across the world and having this consistent headline after headline

01:09:44   of apple giving in or apple like having to change this rule or is this fair like i just saw india's

01:09:51   open to case now and they want similar similar to what south korea has asked for so they are

01:09:56   actually your next example india is your next example after south korea of like the 30 thing

01:10:02   for in-app purchases right and i just think like why like i don't know why we got we should never

01:10:08   have gotten this far and now why are they playing every small game so we have discussed for a while

01:10:18   now like the the risk apple has which is in having its business model broken because the momentum

01:10:28   gathers and the business model gets broken at this point i feel like there is not like they're not

01:10:37   so proactive and so afraid of that that they're willing to just roll out a bunch of changes

01:10:42   and say we've listened and we hear you and we're going to do this and maybe their calculation there

01:10:48   is that if they do it it's just going to result in a oh we got them on the run now boys let's

01:10:53   let's get them for other stuff right like make it worse i'm not sure i believe that but i think that

01:10:59   that could be an argument there i feel like though there we have one of two paths ahead of us here in

01:11:04   terms of what apple's going to do one of them is that apple is doing all of this small potato stuff

01:11:09   because apple is readying whether it's planning on rolling it out or it's an in case of emergency

01:11:17   break glass kind of situation apple is readying their offer of app store reform and they're not

01:11:26   ready for it yet so they're going to make incremental agreements in the meantime while

01:11:33   they ready that or a slightly different version of that is apple has decided that their best strategy

01:11:43   is to essentially buy off every regulator with a negotiated minimal change and that they feel the

01:11:55   net result is going to be less than the emergency break glass version that they're better off and so

01:12:04   far i gotta say so far i think they're if they're all like the tone of these i think they're kind of

01:12:11   right these settlements the lawsuit settlement that they did which was basically a win for them

01:12:15   the settlement in japan uh even even the korean law we'll see how it gets implemented and and all

01:12:22   that but like there's something to be said for the attitude that they're better off moving

01:12:29   incrementally in individual cases that they won't have to make as big a change as they want okay

01:12:38   fair enough they can they can move like 75 of the way rather than 100 you know by the time it's what

01:12:45   i'm saying is their attitude seems to be that rather than going to a hundred percent of what

01:12:52   they're willing to give and say we heard everybody and we're reforming and here's the new way and

01:12:57   isn't it going to be great apple's attitude very much seems to be we will scratch and claw if it

01:13:04   means that we only have to give up 75 of that instead of 100 because and and if it's uh you

01:13:10   know a new settlement announced on a on a friday afternoon um every week for a year to incrementally

01:13:18   change app store practices like that that my concern with that strategy is that they are taking

01:13:26   a real risk by doing this that they're gonna end up what's the over under on that 100 that's their

01:13:33   opening offer right like are they gonna end up at 75 are they gonna end up 125 yeah they're gonna

01:13:39   lose one like a big one scratching and clawing of this lead to them ending up in a worse position

01:13:45   than if they had just made a bunch of app store reforms and put them out there but i just you know

01:13:52   again i don't think they're capable of it i don't think they're capable of saying we're gonna change

01:13:57   uh and we're gonna leave money on the table because we've heard you and this is the right

01:14:02   thing to do i just don't think that they've got that they're not wired up that way they don't have

01:14:07   that bone in their body and so instead they're playing this other game which might benefit them

01:14:13   or it might hurt them which is why i think it's kind of dumb and that they might be better off

01:14:17   playing you know trying to throw their souls on the mercy of public opinion and say okay we've

01:14:22   worked with everybody and we've heard your concerns and here's our answer but like it

01:14:26   seems like instead we are um in for a year of a grind of weird country-specific app store rules and

01:14:37   various settlements that in just incrementally adjust app store policies instead of them just

01:14:43   saying you know what we're the richest company in the world and we make billions of dollars and even

01:14:48   if we lose a little bit to our developers who make our platform what it is that's okay because we make

01:14:53   a lot of money and we want everybody to be happy and we want the platform to be successful and

01:15:00   they could do that and probably skate away probably skate away from scrutiny but they don't

01:15:08   want to it's bottom line is that they they don't seem to want to do that everything is a you gotta

01:15:15   you gotta grind to get any little thing out of apple this episode is brought to you by our

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01:16:25   show and relay fm let's do some hashtag ask upgrade questions so i have the first the first one

01:16:33   actually uh i think this is going to introduce an interesting i don't know maybe uh unknown to you

01:16:39   english american pronunciation thing so i would say this word is nougat

01:16:48   it's new you would say it's nougat nougat machine asks nougat machine nougat machine asks as apple's

01:16:58   size political importance and controversies continue to increase doesn't it feel like the

01:17:05   pace of the news is increasingly relentless as well is it difficult to decide how much time to

01:17:11   spend on a show or what to spend it on with so many options yeah yeah yes yes i yes absolutely

01:17:21   it is hard i would also say and you know i i think you probably agree with me but i would like to

01:17:27   hear what you have to say too um i feel like we got into this to be enthusiastic and interested

01:17:39   in what like and talk about products talk about hardware talk about software talk about the

01:17:46   experience of using these devices that matter to us talk about uh ways to use them better

01:17:53   and accessories and like all of that kind of nitty-gritty stuff we did not sign up to do

01:18:02   political and regulatory analysis it's part of i feel the responsibility to do it

01:18:10   but it's so what i'm saying is when we spend an hour talking about that stuff one of two

01:18:18   things is true either we felt the responsibility to do it because it was such a big deal or it's

01:18:24   because there isn't something else to talk about that we would rather talk about and it's a little

01:18:30   from column a and a little from column b today but that's my feeling is yes the pace is relentless

01:18:36   it has picked up and i would really much rather talk about the the devices and how we use them

01:18:45   and how they matter to us than about policy and regulation but as apple has become this enormous

01:18:52   force and scrutiny has been focused on it that's what we end up talking about sometimes yeah i

01:18:57   think an easier way to put it is as apple has changed so have we along with them you know in

01:19:03   the same way that like we talk about streaming media services because apple's streaming media

01:19:08   company now too and has their own content and like you know so as apple has become an increasingly

01:19:15   political force or a force that draws political ire the show has changed along with it i think

01:19:23   i maybe take a little bit more enjoyment from these conversations than you do just because i

01:19:27   have always been and continue to be just interested in the ways that big companies do business with

01:19:33   each other and outside you know like i think i like i describe it as i enjoy the machinations

01:19:39   of large companies right so i just like when uh you know when big company a and big company b go

01:19:44   to war and the war of words between them i find that to be interesting to like pick apart what

01:19:49   they're saying and why they're saying it that's what i like about upstream really mostly is like

01:19:56   how these big companies are interacting and not you know but i do have share the same like i was

01:20:05   thinking as we were talking i cannot wait for next week because we might get to talk about an iphone

01:20:10   instead because that's ultimately what i want to talk about more but i also won't if i believe that

01:20:18   i have something to say about this stuff i want to say it you know because same with like if i

01:20:24   didn't have or you didn't have anything to say about that last topic we probably wouldn't have

01:20:28   spent any time on it or just a little you know sure like we maybe would have just said like hey

01:20:34   this thing happened this week and we're going to move on if i had nothing to say but i have

01:20:38   something to say so i want to say it but i do agree with nugam machine in the way of saying

01:20:44   that like it is becoming at certain points difficult to decide what exactly we're going

01:20:49   to talk about on the show because there's so much like there are a bunch of rumors like rumors are

01:20:55   relentless and like how do we decide which rumors to talk about can be a whole thing not just the

01:21:00   the political stuff yeah i mean we haven't talked about the um like the if i'm gonna buy an apple

01:21:07   watch but we got time for that yeah but i mean i'm totally gonna buy buy an apple watch and that's

01:21:11   fun that's fun conversation but also we talk about new products uh those rumors happen so far in

01:21:16   advance that sometimes those are also just kind of floating out there and and are we restating

01:21:20   ourselves whereas this was something that's new and i think for people who use apple products

01:21:25   you know it's really ultimately this show should be about things that affect the lives of its

01:21:32   listeners and so although there is a sort of a layer in between you and this which is the

01:21:37   developer like how apps behave and what changes in that and how apple changes its policies which

01:21:45   impacts how your apps work it does matter so it is worth talking about and it is also i think

01:21:50   this whole story has been troubling because we've been dealing with sort of what is apple's mindset

01:21:57   here and is this going to you know are they because in the end none of us get well okay

01:22:04   there's probably some apple employees out there right most of us don't get paid by apple doing

01:22:08   well that's not quite how it works right um what we do care about though is is apple's business

01:22:14   model going to change is it going to be broken is the app store going to get really weird and why

01:22:19   and how do we come to that point and whatever happens next at least we have talked it through

01:22:24   and we won't be surprised it's a little bit like when we were talking about uh in the early days

01:22:28   of upstream about like all the changes that were happening in the entertainment industry

01:22:33   uh like when news breaks now about new things that netflix is doing or the tv companies are doing or

01:22:40   anything like that i feel like all of us upgrade listeners and you and me uh are less surprised

01:22:47   about any of that because we've been thinking about it and talking about it so there is value

01:22:50   in it it's just that i guess what i what i wanted to say to nougat machine is i am always going to

01:22:57   be more like what i did there i always am going to be more enthusiastic about the stuff that's

01:23:02   about like the devices that we're holding and the software that runs on them and stuff like that

01:23:07   than i am about regulation um but i also we we can't not talk about it thank you to nougat machine

01:23:16   for no no uget machine can you imagine if it was no uget mac ein that's the that's the person's name

01:23:30   mock mark ein ein mark in e anyway hunter asks hunter hunter asks apples rollout of their csm

01:23:43   announcements have widely been panned as poor pr strategy even by those that support the policies

01:23:49   what does this say about apple's new pr chief hey when you started talking about that later i was

01:23:55   like we're gonna move on because it's coming up later on in the show uh so apple did hire a new

01:24:00   pr chief after having no pr chief for a very long time i think it was over a year at least

01:24:07   steve dowling left and left the apple left the role vacant and then they hired stella low to

01:24:14   replace uh steve delving this is a number of months ago i think it's fair to say the last few

01:24:22   months seem to have shown some differences in pr strategies from apple i don't know if they're like

01:24:28   bad or good but different like the c sam thing didn't go well uh and then there was like you

01:24:34   know a lot of people were talking about especially with the um us developers thing interesting like

01:24:40   timelines given on the announcement which was actually a pretty shrewd move because it initially

01:24:47   came out as like look how great this is because that's what apple told the press uh that it was

01:24:53   super great um but when you started digging into it it kind of wasn't that great because no no

01:24:59   concessions were actually made even though it was made to look like concessions were made so i mean

01:25:07   i don't know i think the c sam thing is was very clearly uh pr blunder i don't know if stella low

01:25:16   was involved in that at all i don't know you know maybe it started before i had no idea this is the

01:25:21   problem with the black box of apple right is that and i said this earlier but just to restate it

01:25:26   i don't know if this is stella lowe's problem if it's the people who work for stella low who

01:25:36   who have been there a while and they made bad decisions or if this comes from

01:25:42   you know tim or somebody else who basically is saying you will communicate this i don't know so

01:25:49   it's very hard to place blame but i will say the communications have been poor the c sam thing was

01:25:55   botched it was not you know things should not have been announced the way they were they shouldn't

01:26:00   have conflated those features that are totally different from one another they like they rolled

01:26:04   them all together like ah it's we're going to tell a story about all this stuff it just led to

01:26:07   more confusion they then had to do lots of damage control and then they pulled it pulled it out

01:26:12   uh not great some of this other stuff has been you know it's like you said it's it's been tough

01:26:19   i'll also say that stella lowe's bio mentions that she's also in charge of employee communication

01:26:24   so i have to say what does that mean and does that mean things like tim cook's memo where he said

01:26:31   great news everybody wants to come back and work in the office three days a week was that part of

01:26:36   her job because that also just engendered a lot of anger among at least some apple employees

01:26:42   so is that and we don't know we don't know it's possible that that that was her mistake too or

01:26:48   it's possible that her hands are tied like i this is the difficulty with any of this is you can't

01:26:53   point to somebody and say i know they're doing a bad job because they may be stuck in a very bad

01:26:58   or even unwinnable situation i will mention stella lowe's background is uh cisco dell and emc all of

01:27:08   which are essentially enterprise tech companies and i again i don't know anything about her

01:27:17   background beyond that and i don't know anything about her skill set and they obviously thought

01:27:21   that she was a great hire i will say no amount of work at cisco dell and emc will prepare you for

01:27:29   what the issues are at apple like i know they're both they're all tech companies apple is not like

01:27:35   those companies at all it was very surprising to me that they did not promote from within

01:27:42   like i feel like surely head of pr at apple you should really know how apple works well what

01:27:51   happened is they had two very senior people in pr when katie cotton retired and they picked one

01:27:57   and so the other left and so then they're left with just steve dowling and his lieutenants and i

01:28:03   they must have thought that steve dowling's lieutenants were not up for the task um

01:28:08   but again we don't know we're just speculating on the outside so i don't know if it's stella

01:28:13   lowe's fault or not but i will say um their rollout was poor and either either stella lowe

01:28:22   should be held to account for the bad rollout or stella lowe should be using it as an example of

01:28:26   why they need to let her handle it right like one of those has to be true right like either you guys

01:28:32   told me to do it this way and it was a disaster and we need to not do this anymore or it was why

01:28:36   did you allow this to happen this way but something did not work right there so i don't know it is it's

01:28:43   a pr blunder regardless and i know you know i just i think you can't even argue that it was a pr

01:28:49   blunder because the way it was rolled out and the way they had to do all of these uh damage control

01:28:54   things afterwards like you don't do damage control and then throw out a lot of executive interviews

01:29:00   and then withdraw the feature if it wasn't a botched rollout and i do think that if they

01:29:07   had understood how it was going to be interpreted they could have done it differently that said what

01:29:13   i mentioned earlier still goes which is part of the fault here is that they seem to have not

01:29:18   engaged in some of the experts in this field in advance you know and you know when you have

01:29:25   the people who wrote maybe the only published paper on neural hashing come out two days after

01:29:30   the announcement and say they completely missed all of the flaws we found with this and so why

01:29:37   did they do this you should probably talk to them right like this is not a secret product this is

01:29:42   not an iphone then the fault lies with like i guess the security team or whatever it is like

01:29:47   not like the security security team and whoever enables that and that's a cultural thing and that

01:29:53   means it goes up to tim really like they they need to deal with this stuff so i can't call for

01:29:58   the firing of somebody because i don't really know who's at fault but somebody blew it here and maybe

01:30:02   many somebodies and maybe it's a fault of the corporate culture or as somebody on twitter said

01:30:06   to said i don't even know it was to me said the other week um boy there's an apple university

01:30:12   class and all of this isn't there like yeah there should be this should be a what went wrong and why

01:30:16   do we do it this way and how do we fix it because they they messed this up badly and zach asks this

01:30:22   is follow up from our call-in show what pen should i look into if i want something nicer but not a

01:30:27   fountain pen so this was let me take this one to you getting in there all right yeah go on what

01:30:33   you got i i don't i i have nothing okay so i'm gonna give two two things here one is pen addict

01:30:41   dot com slash top dash five dash pens i'll put a link in the show notes my co-host at the pen addict

01:30:48   brad dowdy put together a top five pens list for a vast array of categories so depending on what

01:30:56   you're looking for there's a pen in there but if i was going to make like here is a blanket

01:31:01   recommendation for you it would be the mark one from studio neat that would be my if you wanna if

01:31:08   you want to to up your pen game you will get two things here you will get what is undoubtedly my

01:31:15   favorite refill my favorite rollable refill ever made which is called the schmidt p8 126

01:31:21   that's the refill that they use i think i may have helped introduce this refill to studio neat and

01:31:27   they love it so much they wanted to build an entire pen around it because they thought it was

01:31:31   super great because it is super great and but the pen body that they that they pair it with is

01:31:36   absolutely fantastic and includes one of the most satisfying clicking mechanisms which are called

01:31:41   knocks in the pen vernacular one of the most satisfying clicking mechanisms that i've ever used

01:31:47   i can give you a audio example very nice fantastic pen here's the uh yeah studio neat

01:31:57   very good very good i have two of those they do black and white it's very nice and if you

01:32:07   um are in your local like stationary store i would say uh i bought a bunch of the zebra sarasa

01:32:18   clip which is you can often just find in a little bag or even in a little just in a little barrel

01:32:25   one at a time at your stationary store uh it's a you know gel pen it's really good as a plastic

01:32:32   you know it's not a fancy pen it's just a good pen that's what i used to use before i got these fancy

01:32:38   ones zebra sarasa makes it way onto one of brad's top five lists yes it is a very good pen that you

01:32:43   chosen for yourself there yeah well i mean i talk to pen people about it of course that's actually

01:32:48   a really good pen so you have that that's because because i was buying you know clicky plastic pens

01:32:52   and i thought well if i'm gonna buy a clicky plastic pen i want a good one in case you don't

01:32:59   notice about me i host a weekly podcast about pens and stationary materials it's called the pen addict

01:33:05   the pen addict celebrates its 10th year next year can you believe that good pretty good we're

01:33:13   actually just out of pure chance our 500th episode is going to align with our 10-year anniversary to

01:33:21   today well that's you know it's in the ballpark right that's 50 shows a year well we took a break

01:33:27   for a while this is one of the things there was there was a multiple month break uh in the pen

01:33:32   addicts history but uh yeah long time that we've been doing that show for a long long time and i

01:33:38   also do host a podcast with the guys over at studio neat as well called thoroughly considered

01:33:42   um but i absolutely adore that pen and think that you should buy it for yourself if you'd like to

01:33:49   send in a topic question for us to focus on to send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or

01:33:56   use question mark ask upgrade in the relay fm members discord which you can get access to if

01:34:00   you sign up for upgrade plus thank you so much if you have go to get upgrade plus dot com uh we are

01:34:06   now as i'm recording at 185 474.88 so we are uh just about ten thousand dollars away from crossing

01:34:19   our one million dollar goal of raised over three years for the wonderful saint jude children's

01:34:25   research hospital go to saint jude.org slash relay and you can donate today don't forget if there is

01:34:31   an apple event announced uh we will be uh having an extra draft episode of upgrade which might

01:34:40   actually mean right now in this very serious episode we are ending the summer of fun this

01:34:49   could be the end of the summer of fun right now it depends this could be the end of the summer of fun

01:34:58   it's difficult now we don't know when to end it because we don't get enough notice but this could

01:35:03   be the last time today that you hear the summer of fun theme song well it'll it'll i think in its

01:35:08   entirety right we do a little transition i knew i knew what you were we do a little transition but

01:35:14   yeah it's been a it's been a fun summer we had some fun we've had a lot of fun i think we've had

01:35:18   a lot of fun this summer great guests the guests with with you and the guests with me great theme

01:35:23   episodes yep i think it's been a great summer of fun but you know the summer comes to an end when

01:35:30   the iphones unfortunately arrive although the heat started increasing here in london this week which

01:35:34   is very peculiar the temperature starts going up again that that's the irony of of the bay area

01:35:39   weather is that our best weather is in september and october so yeah but this might be the end of

01:35:45   the summer of fun all right well you know it'll be back it'll be back always is and we got the

01:35:51   holiday maybe sooner than usual who knows you never know you never know with us you never know

01:35:56   with us thank you so much to pingdom gabby and member for for the support of this episode you

01:36:02   can find jason online at sixcolors.com and he is @jasonelle i am @imike we'll be back

01:36:11   definitely next week maybe before until then say goodbye jason snow goodbye mike really

01:36:17   so you