368: Tossed Salads and Scrambled Eggs


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:17   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 368, and today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,

00:00:24   Discourse, DoorDash, and Amazon Music. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:30   Hi, Jason.

00:00:31   Hi, Myke Hurley.

00:00:32   Big show today.

00:00:32   I'm listening.

00:00:33   You're listening. Ah, it's good, it's good.

00:00:36   [Singing]

00:00:37   Tossed salads and scrambled eggs.

00:00:40   I know what you were trying to do there.

00:00:43   So we are doing our first ever Upgrade Call-In Show today. So throughout this episode,

00:00:49   you're going to be hearing questions from our upgradeians. And we're actually going to start

00:00:54   with our #SnellTalk question. Jason, can you queue it up?

00:00:57   Is the caller there?

00:00:59   Hi, Myke and Jason. It's Ellen from Australia. My question is, when you're all able to get together

00:01:07   again and have a big party, what's the canonical dance move that everybody knows? In Australia,

00:01:13   it's the Nutbush.

00:01:14   I had to look into this.

00:01:16   Me too.

00:01:16   The Nutbush, because, you know, I was worried. What are we talking about here?

00:01:19   We might not be able to run that in the episode, yeah, for sure.

00:01:22   The Nutbush is a dance that is to a Tina Turner song called Nutbush City Limits. And for some

00:01:31   reason, this line dance has become very popular in Australia. And it is expected that all

00:01:37   Australians know how to do the Nutbush. So I'll put some links in the show notes to both a video

00:01:43   showing a bunch of Australians doing the Nutbush and the Wikipedia article. Is there one that

00:01:48   immediately jumps to mind for you, Jason? Like a dance that everyone knows?

00:01:53   A dance that everyone knows. Well, first off, I tend not to be around places where people

00:01:59   are dancing. Like if people start dancing, that's my cue to get out of there. So I don't

00:02:07   know if there is. I'm sure it varies from, right? Like they're novelty dances. So there's

00:02:12   certain phases of time where everybody knows. Sure, the Macarena, you're dating me, but yeah,

00:02:18   that's true. That was a dance craze. And there was a period in there where every dad knew,

00:02:26   oh, what was it that every dad knew how to do? You know, there's always the, and then they

00:02:31   embarrass every child with it. Now I can't even remember what it was. There's dance crazes. They

00:02:34   happen. I don't have an answer here. If I was forced to try to do a dance move of any kind,

00:02:39   it would be the robot, just for irony reasons. So I was trying to think of a dance, like a

00:02:46   group dance that was equally perplexing, I think, to non, from people who don't live in the place,

00:02:52   you know, like to everyone outside of Australia, it is absolutely perplexing that the Nutbush is

00:02:57   caught on so much. So Jason, I would like to tell you about a dance called Oops Upside Your Head,

00:03:01   which is performed to the song, I Don't Believe You Want to Get Up and Dance,

00:03:09   paren Oops, retitled to Oops Upside Your Head because of the dance that became afterwards.

00:03:17   I've put a link in the show notes to a video here. It is, unfortunately, I didn't do a very good job

00:03:25   really looking around Wikipedia to find a good video. And the main issue is because every video

00:03:32   on YouTube, I should say, where people are doing this dance, they're incredibly drunk in the UK.

00:03:38   This is typically done at weddings, and you have to do this at the point where everyone is so drunk

00:03:44   that they'll do it. So I ended up finding a, like from a kids music YouTube channel. So it's much

00:03:52   more tame, which is a good thing. In Oops Upside Your Head, everybody sits down on the ground in a

00:03:57   line. So you sit directly behind the person behind you. And mostly the song is you hitting the ground

00:04:06   with your hands and clapping over your head and like moving backwards and forwards. It's very

00:04:11   strange. I cannot describe it to you. You just have to watch it. There's lots of shimmying.

00:04:17   - Everybody knows how to do it? - Everyone knows. When this song starts at like a wedding in England,

00:04:22   it's like everyone's down on the ground. We all know what's going on. It's the same as like if

00:04:27   there was a conga. It's that kind of idea. - Yeah. I remembered what the dance move is that every

00:04:33   suburban dad knows and embarrasses their kids with, and it's flossing. - Oh, Jason, no. - Yeah.

00:04:39   - Oh, Jason, no. - Not me, but I can't tell you how many suburban dads I saw who learned how to

00:04:47   floss so that they could embarrass their children. - That upsets me. That upsets me greatly.

00:04:52   - That was a great way to open the show. We do have some, before we get to many, many more

00:04:57   questions today, we have some matters to settle, but usually you can send in a question to open

00:05:03   the show with the hashtag Snowtalk. Just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snowtalk or use

00:05:07   question mark Snowtalk in the Relay FM members Discord. I would like to give our Upgradients

00:05:12   an update on our fundraising efforts for St. Jude this year. As of recording, we have raised over

00:05:19   $70,000 in our campaign, which is absolutely unbelievable. Thank you so much to everybody

00:05:24   that has donated so far as we continue to work our way towards our fundraising goals for this year.

00:05:30   I want to tell you a little bit more about St. Jude and why we do this work. So September is

00:05:35   Childhood Cancer Awareness Month, and for the third consecutive year, we are all supporting

00:05:39   the life-saving mission of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. That mission is finding cures

00:05:44   and saving children because cancer kills more children under the age of 14 than any other

00:05:50   disease. Doctors from all 50 US states and around the world refer their patients to St. Jude because

00:05:55   they have the world's best survival rates for some of the most aggressive childhood cancers.

00:05:59   St. Jude also provides thousands of free consultations for doctors treating children

00:06:04   worldwide, including kids in your community. This September, you can join Relay FM's efforts

00:06:09   to raise the funds and awareness needed to treat and defeat childhood cancer by donating

00:06:14   at stjude.org/relay. Any donor making a single gift of $100 or more will receive an exclusive

00:06:20   Relay FM sticker or thanks pack at the end of the campaign. And if you do donate and your company has

00:06:25   a corporate matching program, please send us an email and we can have that amount routed through

00:06:30   to the campaign. If you just email steven@relay.fm with any proof of your corporate matching, that

00:06:37   will get added into our campaign total. So also as well, if you are donating, check if your company

00:06:43   has a matching scheme. So we'd really appreciate that. So throughout September as well, there's

00:06:49   going to be a bunch of milestone live streams put on by Steven and myself. You can go to stjude.org/relay

00:06:54   you can find out what they are, when they're going to be. So go to stjude.org/relay. Let's cure

00:06:59   childhood cancer together. I got some follow up and little items for you, Jason. There's one thing

00:07:05   that we kind of just have to cover today, but like ultimately I think it's kind of ridiculous.

00:07:11   Honestly, I'm happy we have such a busy show so we don't have to spend a bunch of time talking about

00:07:15   this. I actually haven't posted about this on six colors either because there's really nothing

00:07:19   that I would say other than that this is nothing and don't try to ascribe more meaning to it

00:07:24   because there isn't any. Apple sells a class action lawsuit with US developers. They put out a big

00:07:30   press release about this. A bunch of newspapers and stuff wrote some stories. I really like to

00:07:36   piece by Ben Thompson today on Chitakkari. I think it was the daily update basically saying like

00:07:42   Apple tricked a bunch of large media companies into thinking that this was something that was

00:07:47   really good for developers, but actually kind of nothing changed and maybe some things kind of got

00:07:53   worse. I want to run through the things from this class action lawsuit, this settlement that was made

00:07:58   that Apple have stated. They're going to maintain the small business program for three years in its

00:08:04   current form. This is where they give developers who make under a million dollars 15% instead of 30%.

00:08:12   I think this is worse for two ways. One, it's saying it's for three years. Was it going to be

00:08:17   more or less? Who knows? In its current form, the current form isn't good enough so hooray.

00:08:22   They've reiterated a bunch of App Store search rules and reiterated that they're going to keep

00:08:28   their rejection appeal process in place. Apple has stated that developers can email customers

00:08:34   about other payment options. I think we'll come back to that one. They're adding more price points,

00:08:39   over 500 possible price points for a developer. They're going to make an annual transparency

00:08:44   report and they've created a 100 million dollar small developer assistance fund.

00:08:49   This is branding for the payout for this class action lawsuit. So developers, if they meet the

00:08:54   conditions required, can apply to receive money and then by taking that money they cannot take

00:09:00   any further legal action against Apple for these things. But the lawyers who did all of this work

00:09:08   apparently trying to take 30% of that 100 million dollars. So it's all great. The thing that people

00:09:14   originally thought was exciting but it turns out just isn't, is that developers can email

00:09:19   customers about payment options. This is no change to anything. Apple tried to have some rules but

00:09:27   there was no way that they could have discovered or enforced these rules before. They don't give

00:09:32   you an email list. You have to have acquired the email list. Anyone could have emailed their

00:09:37   customer base and said, "Oh, by the way, you can pay us on our website." I don't think it's made

00:09:41   a difference to absolutely anything. But now it's like if you were worried Apple was going to kick

00:09:46   you out of the store over this then they can't now. This is... So essentially there was a class

00:09:52   action lawsuit. They weren't going to get any... The people suing were not going to get anything

00:09:56   out of Apple. So they settled. The settlement lets Apple announce that they settled a lawsuit

00:10:02   which makes... And you're exactly right. It makes a lot of people who don't know a lot about the

00:10:07   current situation in the App Store think that there's progress here. It makes Apple look like

00:10:11   they are settling with developers and solving these controversies that are out there. When in

00:10:19   fact the settlement essentially doesn't require Apple to give anything away other than this $100

00:10:26   million which is spun as rather than as a settlement as an assistance fund. So it's

00:10:32   actually spun as Apple helping developers. There's essentially nothing changes here.

00:10:38   It is a PR maneuver to make Apple look like it's changing when it's not changing.

00:10:45   >> And that PR move is again to signify to the people who think that Apple have to change their

00:10:54   what's called steering provisions which is where they make you pay. They don't allow you to tell

00:11:00   people to pay outside or whatever. This makes it seem like they're backing down on that but really

00:11:04   they haven't changed anything at all. >> No, because all of the restrictions are...

00:11:08   They're agreeing to allow developers to do something that developers already basically could do.

00:11:14   And the rules about what developers can't do. A lot of stories sort of made assumptions,

00:11:20   especially initial stories after this was announced by Apple. And of course Apple did

00:11:24   this as a press release and a briefing and all these things to steer it in the way that they

00:11:28   wanted it to be covered. And so people took it as being maybe what Apple said of being a big deal.

00:11:36   And the truth is that a lot of the details when you burrow down into them are completely unchanged

00:11:42   from how it was before. So while there may be some little things that happen at least in the US,

00:11:47   because this is an American lawsuit and I believe only covers the United States anyway, really it's

00:11:53   nothing other than Apple PR. And if there are small changes, they're so small as to be immaterial

00:12:00   or beside the point. Like adding more price points is maybe a change but doesn't... It's not what this

00:12:08   is about, right? It's Apple giving ground on something that doesn't matter and that isn't what

00:12:13   people are watching Apple for. So this is essentially Apple reaping a PR benefit out of

00:12:20   this class action lawsuit. They pay a hundred million dollars and they get to look like they're

00:12:26   burying the hatchet with developers when it's actually this one class action suit.

00:12:32   I mean, and honestly like James Thompson's posted in the Discord, this just makes it even more BS

00:12:38   than it currently already is. Even those rules about the email, it's like US only. So like,

00:12:43   "Oh, you know what? We've already given this more time. I don't want to spend the rest of this

00:12:47   episode getting angry about this because I just... I will." No, the point I think we need to tell

00:12:51   people who listen to upgrade is if you saw a story over the weekend that said Apple was burying the

00:12:57   hatchet with developers and making substantive changes to the App Store in order to make

00:13:01   developers happy, that's not true. That's not really what happened. And we're basically not

00:13:09   in any different state than we were before unless Apple's PR move here somehow provides a fig leaf

00:13:18   for politicians or whoever to say, "Oh, Apple's shaping up." But anybody who knows anything about

00:13:25   this, including all the developers we know, all the people like the Coalition for App Fairness

00:13:30   people were quoted in a lot of these stories. Like it's a nothing. It's just nothing.

00:13:33   - Let's do a couple of Apple TV Plus headlines for Upstream. Ted Lasso cleaned up at the

00:13:40   first annual, they called it that Jason, HCA TV Awards. I was so excited. I tuned into their

00:13:47   YouTube channel for a little bit and they called it the first annual Hollywood Critics Association

00:13:52   TV Awards. - Who are the Hollywood Critics Association? What is that? That's a well-founded

00:14:00   in late 2016, says the Apple press release. Very prestigious. - Yeah, this is a new thing.

00:14:06   This was a rebrand of a previous award ceremony, I think. I was looking into this. But this was

00:14:12   a legit, like this seemed to be something that people were excited about before today. Like,

00:14:16   I tuned in and they had a bunch of people there. Like this seems to be a deal. I don't know why.

00:14:21   But Apple won or Ted Lasso, for Ted Lasso, best streaming series in a comedy, best actor in a

00:14:28   comedy for Jason Sudeikis, best supporting actor for Brett Goldstein, who plays Roy Kent,

00:14:34   best supporting actress for Hannah Waddingham, who plays Rebecca. They got all of those for

00:14:40   Ted Lasso. So four. They also, Rupert Grint for Servant won best actor in a streaming series for

00:14:46   drama. So pretty good outing. And I think this is going to be, you know, like we said before,

00:14:53   the start of a very big award season for Ted Lasso. - Yeah. - Speaking of Ted Lasso, I was on an

00:15:00   episode with you and Brian Hamilton and my wife, Adina, of Football is Life, which is the

00:15:06   incomparable episode by episode recap podcast of Ted Lasso. And so you can go and check that out.

00:15:11   It's episode 16 of the show for series two, episode six, The Signal, which was a really

00:15:17   interesting episode. And I'm very happy that I was able to be a part of the recap for that one.

00:15:21   - Yeah. We have a good time. That was a fun, fun time. A lot of podcasts this weekend for me,

00:15:26   but that was a good one. - And The Problem with Jon Stewart will be debuting on September 30th

00:15:32   if they had a little teaser trailer that I enjoyed today. I enjoyed this teaser trailer way more than

00:15:36   I did the teaser sketch that they did. - Yeah. Yeah. - And they also, I don't know if this was

00:15:43   news or not. I couldn't remember, but one of the jokes in it, I won't spoil it, but it references,

00:15:48   like, why didn't I just start a podcast? And there is going to be a companion podcast,

00:15:54   which is actually available to subscribe to now in Apple podcasts. - Yeah, of course. - I'm excited

00:16:00   for the show. I don't really know what to expect, honestly. So I'm pretty jazzed about it. - Yeah.

00:16:05   Yeah. It'll be good to see Jon Stewart again. - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by

00:16:11   our friends over at Discourse. Discourse was founded in 2013 by Jeff Atwood from Stack

00:16:17   Overflow, Robin Ward, and Sam Safran. It is a powerful, flexible, open-source community

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00:16:39   with Zapier, Patreon, Memberfall, and so many more. I've spent a bunch of time looking in the

00:16:45   MacPowerUsers discourse forum, so they have one for MacPowerUsers. And I really love how easily

00:16:51   and neatly everything is presented and laid out. Now that I have seen and used Discourse,

00:16:56   I never want to look at any other old-looking forum again. This is what everyone should be using.

00:17:02   What I like is not only can you choose different ways to display things, like hot topics or latest

00:17:08   topics, everything's nice and searchable and it loads really smoothly and fast, and doesn't feel

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00:17:41   That's Discourse.org and the code RELAY2021 for 50% off your first two months. I also want to

00:17:48   mention that they have a new offering called Discourse for Teams. This is perfect for small

00:17:52   teams or businesses looking to use Discourse to collaborate because it is a private, focused

00:17:58   Discourse instance with added features like a new sidebar, automatic icebreaker tools, team updates,

00:18:03   and more to help groups of people work together more effectively. There isn't currently an offer

00:18:08   code for the teams, but the plans start at just $20 a month. If you want to learn more about that,

00:18:12   you can go to teams.discourse.com. Our thanks to Discourse for their support of this show

00:18:17   and Relay FM. All right, let's get to our Ask Upgrade Out Loud questions. We have so many,

00:18:23   it will probably be the rest of the entire show. Kick us off, Jason.

00:18:27   All right, here's our first one. This is Chance from Illinois. I wanted to ask if you think the

00:18:34   12-inch MacBook could make some sort of comeback in the future with an M1 chip. Thanks for answering,

00:18:39   and happy Summer of Fun! I'm Chance, and this is my question. I like this presentation. Chance has

00:18:48   an incredible voice. Like, so good, very good, and good work on Summer of Fun, Chance, but it wasn't.

00:18:56   Yes. It wasn't enough. Not your strongest. Summer of Fun! That's how you really gotta do it.

00:19:04   I left you hanging there. Oh, that's fine. Summer of Fun! Yeah, you can see Chance was embarrassed

00:19:10   to be shouting that so loudly. He was. So they held it back. 12-inch MacBook, Jason.

00:19:15   I mean, this is what we all thought was going to be the first M1 Mac for a time. Well, I'd like to

00:19:22   tell you there's a chance. Hey-o! Oh, no, I don't have a little sound effect for, it's probably all

00:19:30   for the best. The 12-inch, yeah, I mean, I would love to see Apple make a proper light, thin MacBook

00:19:40   Air, basically, that is even smaller than the one that they've got. I'm not sure it's ever going to

00:19:48   happen, but I would really like to see them sort of differentiate the MacBook Air from the MacBook

00:19:54   Pro. The problem is that the rumors suggest that there is a new MacBook Air coming and that it's

00:19:59   not, it's going to be another 13-inch MacBook Air. The 13-inch MacBook Air isn't much bigger than the

00:20:08   old 11-inch MacBook Air in most dimensions, but every time, because I have a 12-inch MacBook Air

00:20:13   at home, every time I pick it up, I realize, oh, yeah, the MacBook Air could be so much thinner and

00:20:19   lighter. I hope they do it someday. I think there's room for it. My fear is that they look at the

00:20:24   popularity of the 11-inch Air compared to the 13-inch and just don't think it's a place they

00:20:30   need to go. And then the 12-inch MacBook also didn't apparently sell that well because they

00:20:34   didn't keep it around. But I would love to see it because thin, light, tiny laptops are awesome. So

00:20:42   I hope so. If I had to predict, I would predict not. But I think there's still a chance and I'm

00:20:50   going to hold that hope for that. I mean, they can always make, or not necessarily, but they can

00:20:56   always try to just make the 13-inch physically smaller still, you know, just keep trying to make

00:21:02   it smaller and smaller would help. I think I would also like it because I really love that form

00:21:08   factor of a laptop. I think the problem is just in the market, like the overall market, 12 inches is

00:21:15   strange for a laptop. Like there isn't a lot of competition there. And I think that that could

00:21:20   end up harming Apple because people probably want to have a decent-sized screen on their laptop.

00:21:27   And it kind of feels like the industry has settled on 13 as that size. So...

00:21:32   And people ascribe some amount of value to screen size too. I think that's the problem

00:21:37   is some of us look at it and think, "Oh wow, if I could get a 12-inch MacBook that's super

00:21:42   thin and light and all, that would be great." But I think a lot of people say, "Well, yeah,

00:21:45   but there's this 13-inch, right? Like there's the bigger one. I want the bigger one." Also interfaces,

00:21:50   I don't know, I feel like Apple is maybe not comfortable with an interface on a Mac that small,

00:21:57   that they want them all to be a little bit bigger than that. And all the bulk of the laptops that

00:22:02   Apple sells are 13 and 15 or maybe soon to be 14 and 16, but in the range of 13 to 16,

00:22:08   it's already 16. But like, right, there's the rumor that the 13 Pro is going to be a 14.

00:22:14   So let's just say Apple's comfortable with 13 to 16-inch laptop displays and the 14-inch MacBook

00:22:22   Pro is enough to start differentiating it from the Air and they redesign the Air and they're

00:22:26   happy with that. So that's the most likely scenario for sure. So the next question.

00:22:30   This one is for you. My name is Brent and I'm from the Kansas City area in Missouri.

00:22:37   My question is mainly for Myke. I know that you used to do most of your work on an iPad

00:22:42   and you now have switched and do most of it on a Mac. I'm wondering what kind of

00:22:46   pain points did you have going from the iPad back to the Mac?

00:22:50   Thank you, Brent. So I think one of the things that was beneficial for me is I was still a heavy

00:22:56   Mac user when I was a predominantly iPad user. So it wasn't like, like if I switched to Windows,

00:23:02   it would have been a nightmare, right? It's like I tried to work out how to reuse a computer again.

00:23:07   So it wasn't really that harsh, but there are some things that were trickier. So I mean,

00:23:13   I've spoken about this before. I don't think I'm ever going to get used to just how messy

00:23:18   windowing can be on a Mac compared to the iPad. I mean, and you can say, and I agree that the iPad

00:23:24   can be too limiting at times, but I sure would love something in the middle. And I've never found

00:23:30   a automatic window resizing application that I've liked. Like it's just, there's just something about

00:23:36   it. This doesn't sit with me, but I can, I can live with it. Uh, the biggest thing was the lack of

00:23:42   shortcuts for the Mac. So I'm super excited about Monterey. I'm thinking like, I like to not install

00:23:50   the latest version of Mac OS like straight away, but I feel like I'm not going to be able to resist

00:23:56   shortcuts. And so we'll probably be putting it on all of my devices pretty quickly after it comes out.

00:24:04   And I would say overall, I feel like some apps were like kind of missing on the Mac.

00:24:12   Like even though there are apps on the Mac that obviously I cannot get on my iPad,

00:24:16   which is obviously an important thing, but I feel like there was some stuff where I kind of had to

00:24:22   use the web browser more because the web browser isn't really good enough on iOS. So companies

00:24:27   make apps and then the apps have additional features or feel different. Like for example,

00:24:31   I kind of wished that I didn't have to use Google docs and sheets in the browser. I would actually

00:24:37   prefer an application for them so I could just open it and close it. Cause otherwise I have all

00:24:41   these like Google sheets in tabs open all the time when it would be much nicer for me if I could just

00:24:48   open an app and they're all there instead. Like just a little thing, but something that I would

00:24:53   prefer. But overall, I will say that my transition back to the Mac has been pretty seamless so far,

00:25:00   and I'm actually really happy. >> I have just something you just said made me think of a,

00:25:06   I know they've got a lot to do this summer, but a future direction for the Safari team,

00:25:10   which is why do we have to have single site browsers? Why is that not a feature of Safari?

00:25:16   I should be able to take a site or a very particular tab and say, can you put this in

00:25:24   a separate item in the doc or yeah, in the doc, right? You don't need to even call it an app.

00:25:30   But say, put it in the doc so that I could take Gmail or Google docs or whatever, and maybe I can

00:25:37   do it per domain, or maybe I can just do it per tab, but say like, put this in the doc. And why,

00:25:43   when I mean put it in the doc, I also mean that if I quit Safari, it either doesn't close that

00:25:52   thing that's in the doc or it says, would you like Safari to stay running? I see that you've

00:25:57   got other things in the doc, right? I don't know why single site browsing is not just, other than

00:26:05   that it's a little esoteric, but that's such a great feature. Why the web is so expansive,

00:26:11   people do so many different things with the web. I appreciate that they've done tab groups, but

00:26:15   the reason I don't keep things alive, I don't want to keep things alive in Safari, and I always

00:26:20   prefer an app or a single site browser is because it's so easy to close browser windows and lose the

00:26:26   thing that you were working on. And it's cluttery and it would allow you to manage it. So I'm just

00:26:30   going to throw that out there, a half-formed feature idea that I would really love it if

00:26:36   Safari would embrace the idea that maybe you need more doc items, not necessarily for every website,

00:26:42   but on a user choice basis to put things in a separate, it's not even a separate process. I mean,

00:26:50   all Safari windows are in a separate process anyway, but the idea that you would have like

00:26:54   another organizational instance that you could hide and show that would appear in the doc to bring it

00:26:59   forward and all of those things that we use the doc for, instead of all of these sort of, you know,

00:27:05   hacks to make a webkit or chromium fake app that loads a web page, because those are never really

00:27:14   that great. -Sachs made a great point in the Discord. They already do this on iOS for single

00:27:18   pages. -That's true. -So when they bring it to the Mac too and put multiple pages in it or something.

00:27:23   -That's true. That would be, it's yeah, you can save it to your homepage and then it acts like

00:27:27   it's an app. -What we're looking for here, Apple, is a sweet solution to this problem. Can you help us out?

00:27:32   -I just, I like that idea that instead of us trying to struggle with this, what if we said,

00:27:36   "Can I take my Google Docs and just make a kind of a fake app that you can put an icon on it or

00:27:41   whatever," but like it's really just Safari. It's just in a different space, in a different place,

00:27:47   and it's in my doc. -Let's get our next question. -All right. -Hey, this is Brad from Missouri.

00:27:53   What do you think the current state of HomeKit is in terms of priority at Apple? Do either of you

00:27:59   use HomeKit primarily or something else? -I'm all HomeKit. I use HomeBridge to bridge my stuff to

00:28:06   HomeKit. I use the HomeKit app. I have some HomeKit automations, not that many, but some.

00:28:11   I have it wired to various controllers as well, like switches and things. I had my TV set up for

00:28:18   a while when I still had my, I still do have my TiVo. It's just sort of deactivated and I'm playing

00:28:23   the shows off of it that I want to watch before we unplug it and it's officially discontinued.

00:28:27   That switch, I had a little smart switch that like sets the receiver and the TV to the right

00:28:33   thing so that the TiVo works. I'm all using, I'm using all that stuff. Now, in the long run,

00:28:39   HomeBridge, like, HomeBridge exists because a bunch of people made smart

00:28:44   devices that didn't work with HomeKit. The Matter Alliance is supposed to change this,

00:28:49   but it's not, it's not here yet. -It's delayed as well, isn't it? -Yeah, in the meantime,

00:28:55   I am reluctant to buy any tech that does not work with HomeKit. I'm open to the idea if I can find a

00:29:02   HomeBridge plugin for it to give it a try, but I'm really trying to limit myself to HomeKit stuff

00:29:09   whenever possible. In fact, this came up because we were having some issues with my smart lock,

00:29:13   which turned out to be that it's bad at telling you that it, its batteries are dying and it starts

00:29:20   to behave weirdly when, like, it doesn't just shut off. It just sort of like stops doing some stuff

00:29:26   sometimes when the batteries get low. We play some batteries and it's good and that's good because

00:29:32   while I could buy another lock, two things. One is Wirecutter updated their pick for the best smart

00:29:38   lock and it's a really interesting lock that's got a fingerprint scanner on it, which would be super

00:29:43   great for easy access. You just walk up to the door and put your thumb on it and it opens. I love it,

00:29:48   but it doesn't do HomeKit and there's no HomeBridge plugin for it and I thought, do I really want to,

00:29:54   like, I could use it because I don't do a lot of HomeKit stuff related to the smart lock,

00:29:58   but I do have one automation related to it that I think is kind of nice where if it auto unlocks the

00:30:04   lock at night, the lights turn on inside so you can see where you're going. So I would really

00:30:10   rather wait. And then number two is Apple announced their whole HomeKey thing and the idea that you

00:30:17   should be able to do, like, UWB, right, ultra wideband U1 chip kind of smart locks, which are

00:30:26   going to be way better than the Bluetooth LE stuff that's out there now and I really want to wait for

00:30:30   that. But part of my hesitation about getting a new smart lock is actually that the one that is

00:30:36   the most recommended now doesn't do HomeKit. It's like, I don't think I want to go down that route

00:30:42   where I've got, you know, we'll open the Amazon app for this one. No, I don't want to do that.

00:30:51   I want it available on all of my assistants and my watch and all of those things.

00:30:55   - I like HomeKit. That's like my preferred, but in the past, I've tried to get devices that would

00:31:01   at least cover like Amazon Echo as well, just in case. And there are actually quite a lot of

00:31:07   products in certain categories that you can use with multiple. Ultimately, I find a lot of the

00:31:12   home automation stuff to just be too tricky right now. So I'm like crossing my fingers and hoping

00:31:17   that matter ends up solving all of my problems. Like Homebridge, for example, like I set up

00:31:22   Homebridge here at the studio and then all of a sudden one day just stopped working because for

00:31:25   some reason the clock went out of sync on the little box that I used and it was just impossible

00:31:30   to ever fix. And so I decided, well, what happened to me was exactly what I thought was going to

00:31:36   happen, which was something was going to happen with my Homebridge set up one day and it was going

00:31:39   to make me never want to use it again. And that thing exactly happened, which is why I would never

00:31:44   had never planned to bring that to my home because I'm not going to inflict that on my family.

00:31:49   - I only use Homebridge because I bought, like, I don't buy, like I said, I don't buy stuff and

00:31:55   think, oh, well, I'll just attach this to Homebridge. Like if it matters. - Hey, was that a

00:32:00   pun? - It matter, yes, that was not a pun, but sure it does. It matters to me that something is

00:32:07   HomeKit enabled unless I'm not planning on really using it using a smart home system, right? Which

00:32:14   sometimes happens. But what I've tried to refrain from doing is think of Homebridge as a long-term

00:32:19   solution that I'm going to bake in with my buying decisions, right? Like I don't want to have to

00:32:24   keep using Homebridge forever. It's a back, like I have an old Nest thermostat, right? It's like,

00:32:29   it's on Homebridge now, which means I can see it in the home app. That's great, but I wouldn't buy

00:32:35   a new thermostat that didn't support HomeKit. That's not going to happen. So it needs to be,

00:32:40   now maybe I will be able to buy like another Nest thermostat sometime that supports Matter. And so

00:32:47   it works with HomeKit and everything is good. But I totally, I'm with you. I mean, Homebridge is

00:32:53   fine, but I'd really rather not have to rely on some software running on a computer somewhere

00:32:59   in order to stitch my whole smart home together. Before we move on, a bit of breaking news. I don't

00:33:04   think we have time to cover this today, but I'll just put it in here for the sake of it.

00:33:07   Apple have acquired a classical music streaming service called Primephonic,

00:33:10   and they're going to be, I think, offering a separate application and having this content

00:33:15   available. But yeah, they're going to take down Primephonic later this year. They're going to

00:33:21   integrate a lot of the classical content into Apple Music Now, and they are apparently going

00:33:24   to release an Apple Music classical app. And we used to, Kirk McElhern, who still writes about

00:33:30   this, and I can't wait to see what he says about this story, because he's like the classical

00:33:34   streaming music beat guy for Macworld for years. He was our go-to to write all the ways that Apple

00:33:40   Music and iTunes never ever really understood how classical music fans listen to music.

00:33:44   So I think this is kind of cool because I know that background and I know that Apple,

00:33:49   you know, for all of Apple's talk about loving all kinds of music, Apple's never really been very

00:33:54   good at classical. And this purchase basically gets them classical music knowledge and technology,

00:33:59   lets them integrate it to Apple Music. And I think it's telling that they're going to do a classical

00:34:03   music app because Apple's kind of mental model of how music works is not a good fit for classical.

00:34:10   So fans of classical music, and they are out there, and I know some of them, and I know how

00:34:17   frustrated they've been by the digital music revolution because it has not been as good for

00:34:21   them as it has been for those of us who like pop music. Classics like the Eagles, right? The Eagles

00:34:26   diastrates. Classical music is like Jimi Hendrix, yeah. That's basically a Star Trek joke. You made

00:34:33   a Star Trek joke there. I think that that's how they refer to popular music in the future,

00:34:37   is classical music. Who's our next caller? Hello Myke and Jason. Eric from Vancouver,

00:34:43   Canada calling in. I thought as a former Siri enthusiast it would be fun to ask what

00:34:49   area, feature, or service do you feel Apple could be doing a much better job with?

00:34:55   Immediately, photos jumped to my mind. And you are much more of a photos person than me.

00:35:04   Oh boy, yeah. But there was just, when Eric said service, because I think all the other services

00:35:10   kind of, I think mostly okay for what I want to use them for, but it's just there are some

00:35:16   features for photos, like two major features for photos, that other services, competing services,

00:35:22   do a better job with, and it's surprising to me that Apple don't yet offer this functionality,

00:35:29   which is like proper family sharing, actual real family sharing. Like we can have a library,

00:35:36   and we all get to share it. They have built so many features to not do family sharing.

00:35:42   And they're all really weird. Like all of the sharing stuff that's available right now is

00:35:47   really strange, and I would very much like to have a family, like a full family sharing feature,

00:35:54   or even just like for me, like to just quickly have like a way to opt some photos into being

00:36:02   shared amongst the family, you know, which is not really a thing that happens now. There has to be

00:36:07   very much this like, and then they put, man, I installed the iOS beta on my phone now, and that,

00:36:15   like the for you feature with adding images directly to my photo library is I think genuinely

00:36:21   one of the worst features Apple has added to iOS in a very long time. I don't want messages,

00:36:29   like I don't want images that are sent to me in iMessage to show up in my photo library.

00:36:34   Even if they're from events where you were present.

00:36:36   But that's not real, but then I'm gonna save them.

00:36:40   If somebody sends me a message, and I want it.

00:36:45   You don't like that they show up at the library automatically. You want to just have that be,

00:36:49   I think that may be an option, but you're right. The idea is.

00:36:51   I found it. There's an option.

00:36:53   It's only for events where you were present, right? It's only, so it's not,

00:36:58   people text you things they don't. That's not true. Like, I mean, I know that's what they said,

00:37:01   but it's like, for example, how it's supposed to work.

00:37:04   Like Adina sent me a picture of something at home while I was here at the studio

00:37:08   a couple of days ago, and it's in my library.

00:37:11   Huh? Yeah. That's not supposed to be, it's location and time.

00:37:15   Yeah. Like, you know, like, uh, like another one, like, you know, went to the dentist and she sent

00:37:22   me a picture of a smile afterwards. She's at the dentist. I'm at the studio now. Like maybe it's

00:37:27   because it's like, it knows we're in a family together or whatever, but this isn't what I want.

00:37:32   Like if I want whatever images I want, I will save them. Like I don't need this stuff.

00:37:37   And they have that nice feature now in messages where you can just tap.

00:37:40   It's so good. I love that. But then all these random images start showing up in my library.

00:37:45   Like I don't want that. That's not so good.

00:37:47   And I mentioned this before, I want better control over memory features. Apple have added some more

00:37:52   things like don't show me this person. I don't know why I have to be reactive, why I can't be

00:37:58   proactive. Like why can I not proactively say, like go in and say, don't ever show me this person

00:38:05   or this event or this time period in memories? Like, because.

00:38:10   You may be able to do it for a person.

00:38:13   Let me see. I can find that one out, but there's still like,

00:38:17   there are things you can say, like, don't show me this event or this place or anymore,

00:38:22   but like, I want, I want, I want much more like proactive stuff than that.

00:38:27   If you can do it for a person, I don't know how it is. No, it's just like feature less.

00:38:31   Like that's it. I don't know. Oh yeah.

00:38:33   Okay. Never feature this person. I don't know why if you press feature less,

00:38:36   it pops up and says, would you like to never feature this person? It's like, okay, well,

00:38:40   I don't know why we've got less and never. So you can do that for, in iOS 15,

00:38:44   you can go into the faces area. You can select the little three dots, do feature less, and then

00:38:50   choose to never, but like, that's not everything. Like I still want time periods, all kinds of stuff.

00:38:55   I don't know why I have to do this stuff after the fact, but for me, any photos,

00:39:00   it's much more the sharing stuff just isn't good enough. I think.

00:39:02   Yeah, I think you, you nailed it. And Eric mentioned Siri and we beat on Siri,

00:39:08   but like Siri needs to be better. Um, that's, that's just like, I think that's the easiest

00:39:13   one is Siri needs to be better. And I would say more broadly, I don't know. Some of their

00:39:17   learning stuff doesn't impress me every now and then I get impressed when it's like,

00:39:20   it's suggesting me something, an app or a, or, or, but like I don't use the Siri watch face and

00:39:25   that's not the voice Siri. That's like Apple's device intelligence. And it just does not impress

00:39:29   me. Um, I think all that stuff needs to be better, but, um, I think, I think you make a good point

00:39:34   about photos. Photos has gotten a lot better. I think the last few years in terms of some of

00:39:38   this stuff, but it's got a long way to go. Hi, Jason and Myke, I'm Manoj from Vancouver,

00:39:42   Canada, a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume both of you are given a choice to replace an

00:39:48   Apple-provided official app with an indie app. What would it be? We're big in Vancouver.

00:39:55   I love it. So we can replace any app that Apple ships with one of our own. Where are you leaning?

00:40:04   I don't know. This is hard for me to pick one. I could have, I think I could have a few, honestly,

00:40:11   Fantastic Al for calendar. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, Pocket Cast, Overcast, Castro for podcast.

00:40:19   Sure. Pick your poison. Like I'm fine. Uh, obviously Peacock, right? Which is what the

00:40:26   calculator over a Peacock. Sure. James was just in an article about actually this kind of thing

00:40:30   on the verge. I'll put that link in the show notes in case people want to read it. Oh, you mean a

00:40:35   friend of the show, James Thompson, author of Peacock. Uh, yeah, I think, I think Fantastic Al would be my

00:40:41   number one choice and number two would probably be Overcast. Um, or literally any other podcast app

00:40:49   other than Apple podcast. Apple podcast is fine. The other ones I think are better. Sometimes I think

00:40:54   that Castro is the most Apple-like podcast app in the sense that it's opinionated and opinionated in

00:41:03   a way that I feel like Apple would be opinionated about, like, it looks really good and there, it has

00:41:07   a way of working and you're going to use it that way. And like, and I don't mean that negatively. I

00:41:12   mean, that's the kind of stuff that Apple does is be like, why is it like this? Because we think this

00:41:18   is the best way. Like, all right. But as a third party app, it's a little bit different. But yeah,

00:41:22   Fantastic Al would be, uh, the number one example. Um, Dan Morin and I were talking about this a

00:41:26   couple of weeks ago, um, about calendar stuff and how bad, like I I'm actually using MimeStream,

00:41:34   the email program, which also I would say is, is, uh, which is by somebody who used to work on

00:41:40   Apple mail and it just works with Gmail now, but like, it's, it's like Apple mail, but also good.

00:41:47   Um, and on the Mac, like you look at calendar and you look at mail and you look at some of these

00:41:53   apps that have been around forever. And I don't understand, like Apple must just think that

00:41:59   they're good enough as it is. But I find that funny given how aggressive Apple is about updating,

00:42:05   like notes and reminders, like the notes and reminders. People are possessed with getting

00:42:11   better. And I, I, um, I actually wrote a piece about this last week on six colors about how,

00:42:18   like they added in smart collections, which, which they, you know, Apple's always sort of

00:42:24   basically implied that you don't need smart albums and photos and you don't need to be able to edit

00:42:29   smart playlists and music on, on iPads and iPhones because it's too complicated. And then they're

00:42:34   like, Nope, we're in iOS 15, we're, we're putting in smart lists for reminders and like, we're going

00:42:39   to show you this huge, like, this is how you do this kind of thing, right? When you start.

00:42:44   And we're just going to embrace it. In fact, I immediately had the thought, which is next year

00:42:48   in iOS 16, they're going to do their take on, um, on Rome and notion and obsidian and stuff like

00:42:54   that. I think iOS 16, the notes, notes is going to be totally about like linking between notes

00:42:59   and stuff. And they'll do it again in an Apple way where it'll be like super sanded down smooth and,

00:43:04   and, and, and all of that. But I think there's, there's still going to do that. And I won't be

00:43:09   surprised when that happens at all because the notes and reminders team are really pushing things

00:43:12   forward. Whereas in Safari, you know, we can complain about Safari, but like, they're trying

00:43:17   new stuff. Whereas like mail is just dead and calendar is dead. And there are so many

00:43:25   frustrating things in calendar that fantastic Cal has, has picked up and is doing. And then you go

00:43:32   over to a calendar and you're like, Oh, right. It doesn't do any of these things. And I mean,

00:43:36   I know fantastic Cal has esoteric features too. That's how you survive as a third party app, but

00:43:41   some of calendars or fantastic Cal's features really should be table stakes. And yet the

00:43:46   calendar app is just like, yeah, good enough. And I, that, that infuriates me is the system apps

00:43:53   that Apple seems to have decided are good enough and that they don't ever want to revisit again.

00:43:57   Cause mail mail is my favorite example and I don't have a replacement for it. There are a bunch of

00:44:02   apps that are trying this, but the fact that Apple mail has never even once tried to understand that,

00:44:09   you know, maybe you want to auto filter things on iOS, or you want to have it do a kind of a

00:44:16   learning based filter or defer messages for awhile, or, you know, like you could, or have a priority

00:44:22   inbox or like there are all these things they could try that a bunch of other people have tried

00:44:26   in the last 15 years. And instead Apple mail is like, it's, it's, it's not that different from

00:44:34   the next mail app that was its origin, right? Like, and it was Steve Jobs' mail app. And that's

00:44:39   why mail exists is that Steve Jobs wanted them to build the next mail app on Mac OS 10. And so they

00:44:45   did. And it is a direct line from that more or less. And I don't know, it's just, it's so

00:44:50   disappointing when Apple abandons these system apps and sort of just says, eh, good enough.

00:44:53   - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Amazon Music. Since you're listening to this show,

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00:46:39   of Relay FM. Let's get our next question. All right, here it is. Hey, this is Joel calling in from

00:46:44   Peters Canyon Regional Park in Tustin, California for my out loud upgrade, out grade question.

00:46:51   If I am looking to get a new Mac this fall, am I better off with a decked out MacBook Pro that I

00:46:59   want to use at my desk and away from it or a Mac Mini and a MacBook Air for the same price? Thanks.

00:47:05   Bravo for the outgrade question. It didn't matter what question Joel had. This one was going in the

00:47:12   episode. If you don't remember, in August of 2020, Jason and I created a fake soundscape in an

00:47:20   episode called Outgrade where we pretended to be outside. It sounds like Joel was actually outside,

00:47:26   which was better than what we did. All right, so which Mac? So, which would you have if you were

00:47:34   in Joel's situation? Two Macs or one Mac? I have lived both of these lives. I think,

00:47:45   okay, two things. One is, the premise here is you buy a more expensive, more capable Mac,

00:47:52   or for that price, you could buy two cheap Macs. I'm not sure, like, yeah, I guess there's a way

00:47:59   to do that. If you bought it like super pricey MacBook Pro when it comes out versus what, you

00:48:04   know, a 24-inch iMac and a, or a Mac Mini and a MacBook Air, I think you're going to be happier

00:48:11   with a more powerful Mac. And if it's a laptop, you can get an external display and you can dock it,

00:48:17   which is jankier than the alternative. But you can get a dock, you know, a Thunderbolt dock or

00:48:27   something like that. So you have one plug to plug it in and that works pretty well. And I've done

00:48:32   that for a long time. And the most important thing is even in this era where we have iCloud and

00:48:36   Dropbox and things like that, I have, so, you know, Myke, I've went several years where I

00:48:42   basically never used my MacBook Air, my old MacBook Air, other than occasionally for like a big deal

00:48:48   podcast interview in New York City, like the ones that we did, some stuff like that, where I did it.

00:48:52   Mostly it just sat here at home and I didn't use it. And recently I've been using my MacBook Air,

00:48:58   my new M1 MacBook Air more. And what it's reminded me is I go to my mom's house in Arizona for a week

00:49:06   and I'm opening up my MacBook Air ready to do my job. And I do a thing that I always do on my iMac

00:49:13   at home and nothing happens because that keyboard shortcut isn't set up or that macro didn't sync,

00:49:21   or I didn't put in the right SSH key or like whatever it is. And it's always happening because

00:49:29   those two computers are not in sync. Even every time I open it up, there's something where it's

00:49:35   like, oh yeah, this doesn't work on this computer. So those are my reasons for saying you probably

00:49:41   should just get one really, really good computer instead of two okay computers. And the benefit's

00:49:48   going to be that you don't have to keep it in sync. I agree with you very much on that point.

00:49:53   Like I run two Macs right now with one Mac at home that never gets used unless I'm in an emergency

00:50:00   just because I couldn't move it because who knows the pandemic if I have to record at home.

00:50:03   And these computers just are never in a similar state to each other. In a little bit, I'm going

00:50:11   to actually come back to this idea of using a laptop and plugging it in because that's also not

00:50:18   a perfect experience. I'll talk about that. And we've got a question later on, which I want to

00:50:21   touch on that a little bit more. But I think I would suggest that unless you have some needs to

00:50:28   dictate a difference in hardware, you know, like that maybe you need an incredibly powerful machine,

00:50:34   but you want a lightweight laptop, you know, then that's fine. But other than that, I would

00:50:39   recommend like you just get one powerful computer, whether it's a laptop that you take with you,

00:50:44   or it's a desktop and you just only ever work on the desktop. Hi, Myke and Jason. I'm Nate Rudd,

00:50:49   podcaster at myhiltodyon.com and an IT director at an international school in Japan. I was

00:50:56   disappointed yet convinced as my school passed up one to one iPads for Chromebooks again this year

00:51:01   because of the monitoring and repairability. Do you think Apple will ever put in the effort in

00:51:06   either hardware or software to make an education focused initiative that could better rival Google

00:51:11   and Chromebooks? So shout out to Nate for plugging his stuff in his question. It's always good.

00:51:18   Nate was smart because I'll say most plugs, there were many plugs, got edited out. I couldn't cut

00:51:25   out Nate's because of how he was talking. Otherwise he was saying, "Hi, I'm Nate." And

00:51:29   like he wouldn't have, it would have sounded weird when I tried to get it out. That's a good work.

00:51:33   The conjunctions of where he, of the site that he wanted to promote and his status as an educator,

00:51:40   which was key to the question, were phrased in a way where they flowed from each other. So you

00:51:46   beat us, Nate. You got it through. So well, well played. We'll get you next time. Yeah,

00:51:52   you'll get yours, Nate. So the question is about Apple and education, but I feel like we could even

00:51:59   pull back and just say, this is a question about Apple in various markets, which is I've learned

00:52:05   over God, way too many years of following Apple that Apple, what makes Apple great in a sense

00:52:15   is its focus on its core markets. And, you know, modern Apple, I would say this was a little less

00:52:28   true in the nineties when the Apple did have less focus. And in the two thousands, when they were

00:52:32   coming back, they started to lose this. But the modern Apple of the last 15 years, especially

00:52:38   the focus is on the end user and delighting the end user and making a product that regular people

00:52:46   who buy a computer will like, or a phone or a tablet, right? Like they, that's what they

00:52:52   care about. And they build their products. It's in their DNA. They build their products that way.

00:52:56   That's what it's for. And everything else is, I don't want to say an accident, but it's beside

00:53:05   the point. So like I did back in June, I did that, the report card about Apple and enterprise.

00:53:13   Oh yeah. Yep. Yep. And one of the things, you know, that comes up in something like that is,

00:53:18   well, Apple doesn't really do this and they have this thing, but it's not. And like Apple's got

00:53:22   making a lot of effort in the enterprise market and that's all true, but at its core,

00:53:29   the computers that it's selling the phones that it's selling into the enterprise market

00:53:33   are just the computers they make for regular people. Like they don't, they don't,

00:53:38   they don't do anything beyond that. That's what Apple is about. And so your question,

00:53:45   Nate, about Apple and education, I would say Apple might make a move there versus Chromebooks or they

00:53:55   might not, but it'll only happen because of where Apple wants to take the iPad that, you know,

00:54:03   that's it like for everybody. And so if Apple's vision for the future of the iPad happens to take

00:54:11   it in a place where it's going to do well in education, then it will do that, but it's not

00:54:19   going to steer the iPad in a particular direction for the education market. It's just never going to

00:54:26   do that because it's not going to steer its products. I think anywhere for anything other

00:54:32   than the idealized customer, which is a single person who walks into an Apple store and is

00:54:38   delighted by a piece of hardware, that's their core belief. That's what they build the products

00:54:44   for. And everything else just comes, you know, even though Tim Cook and Luca Maestri will go get on

00:54:50   these analyst calls every quarter and say, like, Luca does it. He's like, let me give you some

00:54:54   examples of fortune 500 companies that have adopted our hardware, right? He's reading from

00:55:00   his thing and it'll be like, this bank got iPads for all of its tellers. And this airline is using

00:55:05   iPads for their flight manuals and they boast about it. And I get it, but in the end, that's

00:55:12   not luck, but it's adding things on the edges, building around the core, which is this idealized

00:55:22   customer that they want to delight with their hardware. So that's my long-winded version of

00:55:27   saying, will Apple make more of a go of it in education? Maybe if its vision of the future

00:55:36   aligns with what education wants. And I think the reason that Chromebooks are doing so well in

00:55:40   education is because it doesn't right now. - To build on what you were saying, which I

00:55:45   hadn't thought of it like that, and I do like it. Apple are not going to ever make an education

00:55:51   focused iPad, neither are they going to make changes to the iPad line that will make it more

00:55:57   appealing to the education market. Because then that changes the product for everyone and they're

00:56:02   not going to do that. - Neither are they going to make a low-cost MacBook that would be more

00:56:09   appealing to the education market, right? They're just not. - The most that they will do is what

00:56:12   they currently do, which is keep products around for education customers that other customers can't

00:56:17   buy, which are like older versions, but that's probably not also what you want. Because like

00:56:21   what Nate was saying, like repairability and stuff like that, like, it's just not Apple's bag.

00:56:26   - The last product that Apple, I can remember that Apple made for a targeted market was the EMAC,

00:56:33   which was for those who don't remember, the iMac made the transition from the G3 iMacs that were

00:56:41   based on a CRT to the G4 iMacs that were an LCD. And so they were a lot more, a floating display

00:56:48   on the little chrome arm. And then ultimately they went to the iMac that we know of today.

00:56:52   They were a lot more expensive and education very much is like selling that MacBook Air

00:56:57   with the education price for a while after it had even stopped being sold to other people.

00:57:01   The iMac G3 was very popular in schools and the new iMacs were not rugged, right? They had the

00:57:12   little chrome arm and stuff. They were not perceived as being particularly rugged to

00:57:16   handle classroom environments. And they were more expensive than the education customers wanted to

00:57:22   pay. And so what they created the EMAC, the EMAC was kind of just a G4 version of the G3 iMac.

00:57:29   It did have a new enclosure. That was a case where they built a product just for education,

00:57:33   because I think somebody, one of their education people came to Apple when they heard about the G4

00:57:37   and they're like, "No, no, no, no, no. Do you realize how much money we make selling iMacs

00:57:41   to schools? You got to keep making the iMac for schools." And they're like, "All right, well,

00:57:45   okay." And they sold the EMAC for a little while. But like that was a long time ago.

00:57:52   And in general, they don't want to do that because they want to make products for everyone.

00:57:56   And their thought, that was 2005, their thought is if we make a great product for that idealized

00:58:03   customer who's walking into an Apple store, it is a great product for everyone. That's not always

00:58:08   true, but I think it serves them more often than it doesn't serve them. So you take the good and

00:58:16   you take the bad with Apple's philosophies, but that's definitely Apple's philosophy there.

00:58:19   - Talking about Apple's philosophies, what's our next question?

00:58:23   - Oh, a little... - Foreshadowing.

00:58:26   - Yeah, like you've heard these questions before, which we have, because he said...

00:58:30   - I'm just guessing.

00:58:31   - Hey, Myke and Jason, this is Taylor from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm finishing up my master's

00:58:35   thesis, which cites both of you extensively. And I was wondering if you would be interested in

00:58:41   giving your take on my research question. Basically, I'm looking at the debacle around

00:58:45   the trashcan Mac Pro, the iMac Pro, and the new Mac Pro to try and figure out how Apple's definition

00:58:51   of pro has changed over the last five years and how much you as podcasters and we as fans of the

00:58:58   company have impacted that. - So again, if you tell me your

00:59:03   site and me and your master's thesis, I will include your question in the show.

00:59:07   - That's good. - That's just a thing that

00:59:10   you're gonna get for free from me. - That's good. Thank you, Taylor.

00:59:12   - And so there's a couple of parts to this question. I want to attack that second part

00:59:17   last. I do believe that the Mac enthusiast market forced a change at Apple, right? Like,

00:59:26   I don't think that I'm alone in believing this, but the whole Mac roundtable, let's recommit to

00:59:33   Macs and professional... That happened because of the general upset from a certain part of the

00:59:40   market. Clearly, Apple made the decision that they made because it was a small part of their market.

00:59:47   The problem was it is an influential and loud part of their market. And there are benefits to it that

00:59:52   like these people are your evangelists, they're the people that make purchasing decisions in

00:59:56   enterprise, make them happy. And it actually is funny, I've got back to education. So it's an

01:00:02   often used argument for the education market, which I do agree with that by getting these

01:00:08   products in people's hands when they're young, they will buy them in the future. But the thing

01:00:13   Apple doesn't need now is to show young people that you should have an iPhone or an iPad, because

01:00:18   that's what they care about most because all young people want that anyway, so they don't really need

01:00:22   to evangelize it there. But I do think that the general consensus in this community that we're a

01:00:30   part of pushed Apple towards making what I think and we all think is the right decision into

01:00:35   recommitting onto what pro meant for them. Yeah, I think there's some truth in that.

01:00:42   Pro has always been a marketing term for Apple. And so I think it's always on one level, it's always

01:00:54   just meant the best, the high quality, the thing that the pros care about. And therefore, that

01:01:05   means that it is a little more expensive or maybe a lot more expensive, but it's like our best work

01:01:11   because pros are demanding. We had an ad campaign. I don't know if it's still going on, but it was an

01:01:19   ad campaign for GMC trucks in the US. And the slogan was, "We are professional grade." Now,

01:01:31   I don't love that campaign. I didn't love that slogan, but I think it's instructive because what

01:01:37   they're trying to do is not sell, like they're going to sell trucks to people who need big trucks,

01:01:44   but they're also selling trucks to people who don't need big trucks.

01:01:47   It's people that aspire to need big trucks, which is similarly to these products. It's like that's

01:01:53   where prosuma comes in, right? Yeah, or they like the idea that this is going to get them the best

01:02:00   truck because the pros have to rely on this truck and they're not going to put up with second rate

01:02:05   stuff. They're going to have the highest grade, like the use of grade, professional grade.

01:02:10   This is what the pros use and that's why I like it. So Apple has played that game for a very long

01:02:17   time and they play it more now. In the last five years, I would actually say to Taylor's point,

01:02:21   look at the iPhone, right? We now have an iPhone Pro, right? We didn't used to have Pro iPhones.

01:02:28   We have iPhone Pro now. What does that mean? What is a Pro smartphone? And they talk about

01:02:32   the camera rod and they got better cameras and all that, but the point of it ultimately is just,

01:02:36   this is the best of these. MacBook Pro is the better of the Mac laptops. The Mac Pro is the

01:02:42   highest end desktop. iPhone Pro, iPad Pro, right? It just is the best one. It's on the cutting edge.

01:02:50   It's got the best stuff. It is the most expensive, but you got to pay for quality. That's what it

01:02:55   means. Anything else about like particular markets? Eh, like it is, the idea there is

01:03:03   you're paying for better stuff. Now, Apple recognizes that like iOS developers are their

01:03:10   maybe top market for Mac Pro purchases, you know, Pro Mac products because you've got to use a Mac

01:03:18   to develop an iOS app. I think they know about those high-end applications for Mac hardware

01:03:25   that drive Mac Pro sales. I think they're more aware. I think they lost the plot a little bit.

01:03:32   And to your point, I think that's what the Mac round table was about was like they used to be

01:03:37   sort of viewing the Mac as just kind of this legacy platform that they were going to let kind

01:03:40   of ride off into the sunset and not worry about it too much, sort of like Apple mail, like writ large.

01:03:45   But that they changed their mind and they're like, no, no, no, we're going to make an effort here to

01:03:50   sort of integrate the Mac with our other platforms. And we've seen that over the last few years.

01:03:54   And some of that is about worrying about the pros who use their hardware. But I feel like,

01:04:01   you know, in the end, going back to the previous question, what they're really mostly thinking

01:04:07   about is those idealized customers who want the best and aren't necessarily using it,

01:04:16   but they want the best anyway. And so professional grade.

01:04:20   Yeah, it's like Apple focus a lot on the who are their professionals as like

01:04:25   movie filmmakers and photographers like that seems to be that one of their main things talk about

01:04:31   pro is always like here it is in a music studio. It's the glamour. It's the glamour, right? It's

01:04:35   like we use we made a short film with an iPhone pro and what you could edit it and it's 4k HDR.

01:04:40   And most people aren't going to need that. But isn't it amazing that this phone is so powerful

01:04:43   that you can do it so you can want it too. But like, yes, there's that's the glamour aspect of

01:04:48   it, which is you show off and Apple's done that for 30 years to you show off the product of things

01:04:53   made on the Mac and say this is again the message is not directed at VFX artists or filmmakers or

01:05:02   iOS developers. It's at the general public. But the point is these people use our tools to make

01:05:09   these amazing things. That's how powerful they are. Don't you want the same tools that the pros use?

01:05:14   And so they're very happy to use those high profile examples and in some cases commission

01:05:18   people to do high profile projects so that they can show them off and say look they made

01:05:23   this film we you know, we paid this director to make this short film on an iPhone 12 pro.

01:05:29   I think they did so. Yeah, I think so. What is pro ultimately number one? It's just a tag to create

01:05:38   an aspirational aspect to the higher end feature-laden version of a product because

01:05:45   that really works and then secondarily Apple is aware of high profile markets that

01:05:53   it that it wants to serve with their products especially on the Mac side. I hope that

01:05:59   helps and I hope I won't be removed from the thesis now. Hi, I'm Marlies from Groningen,

01:06:06   hometown of AFC Richmond's legendary young mass. If you had to carry a second phone for work,

01:06:11   what would you pick? Marlies! So mine's easy because it's the second phone that I currently own

01:06:21   which is the Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 3. Ah, I just got it last week. Those folding phones are looking

01:06:28   pretty good now right? Like I was pretty surprised when Jason sent me this message in Slack the other

01:06:33   day to that exact effect and I was surprised I mean yes they are they're getting closer and closer

01:06:39   towards being something you can actually use as opposed to something you need to baby. I forget

01:06:47   where I said this and I'm not sure if it was upgrade last week or not but I feel like we've

01:06:51   reached that milestone now where the Apple folding phone is probably coming in the next year or two.

01:06:55   I think so. Because the Samsung phones have gotten to the point where they're they're exiting the

01:06:59   this is sort of a joke and experimental and entering the this is actually good phase and

01:07:04   that's generally when Apple just kind of like give them a year or two and then they pop in and say

01:07:08   yeah we've been working on this for the last five years too but we didn't sell them until now

01:07:11   and then and they'll roll their thing out that that would be my guess is that we're going to

01:07:15   see a folding iPhone in the next couple of years. So you'd go with the the Z Flip? Yeah I really

01:07:21   like it it's my favorite Android phone that I've ever used and it's also different like it's

01:07:26   different enough without being too wild like the the Z Fold which is a larger one which becomes

01:07:32   like mini tablet is really cool but it's not a phone like it's it's like a whole different thing

01:07:39   and I don't really know where I would use that so much but the Z Flip is much more of a yeah I can

01:07:46   use this it's a phone it does some stuff that's really cool and it does stuff that the iPhone just

01:07:50   can't do which I also kind of like yeah but that that's what I would pick. I have an iPhone 12 mini

01:07:59   so my second phone would probably be like an iPhone 12 Pro or 12 Pro Max right because

01:08:09   right I got I got the little phone it doesn't have all the cameras it doesn't have all the space it

01:08:14   works for me most of the time if I had a second phone to carry around having one with a big screen

01:08:19   or bigger screen and the extra camera would be nice. I might consider an Android phone I do have

01:08:29   I you know I always try to keep an Android phone around for reference and then of course

01:08:34   unfortunately very quickly they don't run the latest version of Android and you have to buy

01:08:37   a new phone because that's an Android thing. I will also admit to being curious about the two

01:08:44   new Samsung things because they both look interesting in different ways. I think I would

01:08:49   probably be more like Federico and be interested in the Fold that sort of is basically a tall phone

01:08:55   that turns into a small tablet because I'm more tablet-y than phone-y but in the end I mean if I

01:09:05   have to have a second phone it would probably be an Android phone just because I do like to keep one

01:09:10   around but if I'm living the iPhone life I would just I would just get a Pro phone because I don't

01:09:15   have a Pro phone. Pro is important to me it's professional grade. Very important. You're a

01:09:19   professional. Who's our next caller? Hi Jason and mate this is Ian from Glasgow and my question is

01:09:25   do you think Apple will ever allow end users to boot Mac OS on an iPad or will they persist with

01:09:33   most people buying the same hardware twice? Oh that's a Scottish accent. Oh that's a real one

01:09:39   that's not that James Thompson fake Scottish accent. Take that friend of the show James

01:09:43   Thompson. That's a real Scottish accent right there let me tell you I love it.

01:09:48   Mac OS on an iPad is the dream alive? I can't see it. They could do it right like they could

01:09:58   totally do it I think I feel like this year might have been the year for them to do it

01:10:01   and they didn't do it so I just don't think they I you know why buy one device when you can buy two

01:10:08   devices from Apple I feel like is their is their attitude there. I would love you know what I would

01:10:14   love is I'd love to get to the point where they allow you to like virtualize Mac OS inside the

01:10:18   iPad which they can do the M1 you know is is probably capable of that like where regular

01:10:25   people you're not going to boot into Mac OS and regular people are never going to do this but if

01:10:30   you're a power user or a developer or something like that they will provide like an app maybe you

01:10:37   have to be a registered Apple developer that is basically virtualization of Mac OS Monterey let's

01:10:44   say inside an iPad so that you could on a high end you know iPad Pro with lots of memory you could

01:10:50   have a little sort of like Mac OS app that was running on your iPad that might happen someday

01:10:56   I don't think booting into Mac OS is a thing that's ever going to happen. Have you heard of

01:11:01   Microsoft 365? Yeah. This is a pretty new thing that Microsoft's doing where you can access a

01:11:09   version of Windows from anywhere you can get to a web browser in a web browser app on iPad. I would

01:11:17   like something like that I mean honestly what I want is some kind of native thing it's only getting

01:11:22   worse now that the chips are the same like it makes it more like I would pay Apple whatever

01:11:27   they would charge me to have one laptop that could I could dual boot into like I desperately want that

01:11:34   but I don't think they're ever going to do it now I think the time has come and gone for that like I

01:11:41   don't know what it is that would have to happen for them to create it I still think one day like

01:11:45   I still believe this one day there will be a unified operating system and and that's when we'll

01:11:50   get it but I don't think that's anytime soon but I still think it. I mean my dream my dream laptop

01:11:56   is that you know you detach the screen from the MacBook and it becomes an iPad and then you

01:12:02   reattach it and becomes a Mac but I also don't think that's ever going to happen.

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01:13:29   Winds for their support of this show and Relay FM. Who's up next? Hi this is Ben from Boston and

01:13:36   continuing with the alliteration I want to talk about batteries specifically how you both think

01:13:41   about the batteries in your devices over time whether you've adopted any of the persnickety

01:13:46   best practices for battery longevity like keeping them between 50 and 80 percent or using the slowest

01:13:51   charging apparatus available and how often you replace them additionally I'd appreciate it if

01:13:56   you amplified my call for apple to implement a setting and battery health to allow users to set

01:14:01   a maximum charging level so the nerdiest of the nerdy can rest easy knowing that when they go to

01:14:06   bed and plug their phones in overnight they won't charge all the way to 100%. Wow and there are a

01:14:13   bunch of android phones that have that feature like the kind of like niche android phones

01:14:19   uh have this thing where you can you can say how much you want it to charge to

01:14:23   uh this is one of the things I I thought okay Ben I will amplify your call but I will have to say on

01:14:30   the show that I do not care about this like yeah I don't I don't do any of this I don't think about

01:14:36   it my device should be doing it for me that's what I think and and that is apple's philosophy on this

01:14:43   apple is doing some battery nerdery like there are battery nerds at apple um and they are doing

01:14:50   battery nerdery behind the scenes right like things are happening like it doesn't charge your

01:14:56   phone up to 100 all the time no and it doesn't keep feeding electrons into it like it hovers

01:15:02   right could they be more aggressive maybe they're balancing the idea that they want your phone to be

01:15:09   ready when you go and if they if they only charge it I don't want to be caught out yeah you don't

01:15:12   want to pick up your phone and and go out for a long day of doing whatever and it's only at 80%

01:15:18   right you don't want to do that right then they have to fight against that I think there is some

01:15:22   um is it on the mac in the like they are they are experimenting with using their kind of

01:15:30   intelligence to guess when you usually I think no actually I think this is on the iPhone like

01:15:37   they know when you unplug and start your day and they they will make some guesses about getting

01:15:44   you fully charged for that moment but not charging you up earlier in the night to full like they are

01:15:51   all so my point is I feel like it's probably not that important and you can easily overthink it

01:15:57   and that apple doesn't want users to worry about it but that behind the scenes apple wants to build

01:16:02   a system that can intelligently do the right thing in the right circumstances to maximize

01:16:08   battery life I do I do think that they're doing that I mean I don't do qi charging just for a

01:16:14   bunch of reasons with my phone like I don't really into it I have a qi charger that I use for my

01:16:20   air pods like just because whatever but like I don't I don't do that I don't do the mag safe

01:16:25   or anything I have 98% battery health on my one year old iPhone which I think feels pretty good

01:16:32   I understand why people want to manage this stuff it's just not something I want to have to think

01:16:37   about when it is something that I do believe that the device manufacturer should be doing the work

01:16:42   on and this is this is the ultimate apple thing right like apple doesn't want you to worry about

01:16:48   it there is by the way in the iPhone it's optimized battery charging and that that's this feature

01:16:52   above 80 it won't do it until it's sort of trying to learn when you need it this was one of those

01:16:58   things that they got in trouble with with the with the throttling years ago yeah so they're they're

01:17:03   they're it's a feature and you can turn it off and they're trying to disclose more what they're doing

01:17:07   but they're always trying to figure out ways to do this and apple is never going to give users that

01:17:12   level of granularity I think because they don't think that the hardware manufacturer should have

01:17:19   to leave the management of the battery also users you know some of what users want to do is more

01:17:26   like it's not necessarily right I think that's the challenge and it's not just that there are

01:17:34   rumors that go around that are inaccurate about the right way quote-unquote to do battery life

01:17:40   also what you'll see if you if you follow this stuff over the long haul is there will be

01:17:45   something that's true about the batteries eight years ago and it's and it stopped being true four

01:17:50   years ago and people are still doing that behavior and now it's detrimental to the health of the

01:17:54   battery or it makes no difference in the health of the battery like quitting all of your apps

01:17:58   yeah people don't know the truth of what's in the detail of behind the scenes on the hardware right

01:18:06   they don't and then when you do learn something sometimes it's no longer true anymore but they

01:18:09   don't really talk about it and you continue to do it almost cargo cult light because you heard it

01:18:13   was the right thing to do once but now it isn't anymore and and that's why I think the right thing

01:18:19   is to just be like no uh-uh we're going to take care of this for you and honestly yes a hardware

01:18:24   manufacturer that lets users tweak those settings and sort of abandons the need for it to do it

01:18:29   itself is not doing its job that is the job of the hardware manufacturer to have the battery

01:18:34   use be as smart as possible let's get an ex-cola hey guys Dan from North Carolina I'm curious if

01:18:43   you know whatever happened with target display mode on IMAX in the last couple years Apple's

01:18:48   been presenting itself as a very environmentally friendly and conscious company but their

01:18:54   current crop of IMAX are all turned into paperweights when the processor is no longer up to snuff

01:19:00   um yeah so target display mode died when the 5k iMac came out because the 5k iMac especially

01:19:08   the initial 5k iMac like nobody had really done that before and it was really janky technology

01:19:12   to get that 5k display and uh building in a somewhat niche feature like target display mode

01:19:22   was not something that they I think could do or at least could reasonably do target display mode by

01:19:27   the way in case you don't know what this is oh yeah okay sure hold down the t key on an older

01:19:31   iMac and it turns your iMac into a monitor you can plug a cable into it and it reads as an external

01:19:37   display on another Mac so here is my answer which is Apple has an answer for you and it's AirPlay

01:19:44   for Mac in Monterey and that I think going forward that's what they're going to do I wonder if they

01:19:51   will ultimately get to it where you can literally just boot and hold down a key and it turns it into

01:19:55   an AirPlay display but I think that's what they're going to tell you and there's going to be a little

01:19:59   bit of lag um but I think that's what they're gonna that that's gonna be their solution is if

01:20:06   you've got an iMac that can run Monterey you can you now have an iMac that is an AirPlay uh target

01:20:13   and then you can just AirPlay use it as an AirPlay display as a second monitor and that will work

01:20:18   um it's not the same it's not but um I don't know if they're gonna invest any money in building in

01:20:26   something more sophisticated than that it would be nice it would be nice if they brought back

01:20:30   target display mode in some way um but because I agree they like I've got this beautiful 5k iMac

01:20:38   Pro here and I'm gonna buy uh an Apple silicon Mac at some point in the next year and either this

01:20:48   iMac is going to just kind of sit in a corner or I'm gonna sell it but like

01:20:52   this screen is gorgeous right I could keep the screen but how do I do that in a way that's

01:21:01   satisfying so uh yeah it's I hear you and I wish Apple would do something I wonder if the AirPlay

01:21:07   display target thing is something that might lead to a little bit more of a official beaming

01:21:16   sidecar kind of thing where you sort of like take over the display in a future version of MacOS but

01:21:22   I I'm not sure they're going to have a dedicated hold down a key to boot and enter in a mode and

01:21:26   if they do I'm skeptical that it will be the target display mode I think it's more likely

01:21:31   that they'll you'll hold down a key and it'll boot into AirPlay display mode which might not

01:21:35   be what everybody wants but that may be what they're willing to do to provide some follow-up

01:21:40   real-time follow-up to hopefully stop the follow-up target display mode oh target display mode no

01:21:46   target disk mode is hold down yeah right command F2 everybody's favorite everyone's favorite

01:21:53   easy to close those emails everybody definitely always an F2 key on every keyboard it is only for

01:21:59   IMAX basically in from mid 2014 back to about 2009 that was the era of the of the target display mode

01:22:12   which means that the era of the target display mode was five years long and it's been seven

01:22:15   years since then so yeah and Apple would say well you know it's not a paperweight just recycle it

01:22:21   with us that's what they would yeah or just give it to a give it to a friend or something and now

01:22:25   those are good uses too but it would be nice if you could repurpose that screen it's true it sure

01:22:31   would be hi David Schaub from Vancouver here Apple has frequently tried to achieve a single cable

01:22:37   going from a Mac to its display how important is it to you that a single cable can connect your Mac

01:22:42   and external display another another Vancouver yeah oh we are big in Vancouver this is a thing

01:22:50   we have noticed with the relay FM members discord there's a lot of Canadians and the relay FM

01:22:55   members discord like a disproportional amount of Canadians we have discovered which is something

01:23:00   that was unexpected like we have a current events channel and we're initially concerned that it was

01:23:05   going to be all American politics it's actually quite a lot of Canadian politics it tends to be

01:23:10   the majority of the conversations that occur in that channel I love Canadians like we all share

01:23:15   the same queen after all so single cable display so for a desktop for me not important don't care

01:23:23   right like this you know if I have a Mac mini I don't need everything to flow through one cable

01:23:28   it's going to be multiple cables that's fine for a laptop very important and it doesn't work very

01:23:33   well for me with my MacBook and my dock like I have a CalDigit dock and it's plugged in by

01:23:38   Thunderbolt and every single day no matter what I do when I sit down and plug that thing in I have to

01:23:43   unplug my monitor unplug my monitor back in again and it will work if I don't do this it will not

01:23:50   work once I do this it will work this might be because I have a USB-C monitor and a Thunderbolt

01:23:56   dock but you know whatever like it should work but it doesn't I'm going to refer David back to our

01:24:04   previous conversation where I mentioned having a laptop instead of two computers and this is what

01:24:10   I did and I had a I had a when I set up my office here first before I bought the 5k iMac I had a

01:24:18   Thunderbolt dock attached to a monitor and all of my peripherals and ethernet and all of that and

01:24:23   one plug to plug in to do everything and today it used to be one plug plus power and of course on

01:24:30   today's laptops it's one plug including power which is even better yeah I love it I would if I

01:24:38   was using a laptop as my only computer I would absolutely try to set up a one plug setup at my

01:24:45   desk for sure this is why I want like everyone wants an Apple displays why I want an Apple

01:24:52   display is because I'm confident I would get the plug one cable in and it would work situation

01:24:57   I find it all very frustrating I don't really know why this experience has to be as it is I've

01:25:03   figured that Thunderbolt was going to make all that easier but it doesn't look like it has and

01:25:08   it's really hard to get Thunderbolt monitors which is why I have a USB-C monitor because most of them

01:25:14   aren't available especially in the UK some of the OG display ones they are available in America not

01:25:19   available in the UK so I have an LG display but it's USB-C and I think maybe that causes some of

01:25:24   my issues but it shouldn't I think it was about time that we heard from Canada hey pitter patter

01:25:30   let's get at her hello Myke Jason and Relay I am JD from Michigan United States I'm calling in to

01:25:36   ask your opinions on the supposed layout of the cameras on the upcoming iPhone 13 and 13 mini in

01:25:42   their diagonal form do you like this better or worse than the iPhone 11 and 12 design so wow

01:25:49   I'll put a link in the show notes to a MacRumors article where they have some images of this

01:25:53   and I'll explain this on the phones that have the two cameras the 12 ones it's one on top of the

01:25:59   other on the left hand side right and then they have on the right hand side the flash and some

01:26:04   I think it's a microphone on the dummy versions which have the people that have these dummy

01:26:10   versions tend to always be correct it's like MKBHD makes a video about I think this is like comes

01:26:15   from case manufacturers these two cameras on the iPhone 13 models they are opposite each other like

01:26:22   diagonally so one in the top left one on the bottom right I prefer them stacked on top of each other I

01:26:30   think I'm pretty sure I don't care but I would say that I kind of like that they look like a two on a

01:26:38   six-sided die now you're older too all right that's all I got I don't think I care sorry you don't

01:26:49   need to care that's totally fine it's actually part of the reason I put it in there it's like

01:26:52   this is the thing it's like I also it doesn't bother me so much if I had to make a choice which

01:26:57   is to answer JD's question my choices I prefer the other one but it also doesn't bother me that much

01:27:02   because all of these camera bumps are just their own varying variants of ugly and it's just what

01:27:08   ugly are you willing to accept yeah it looks like a domino as well you could say the dots on a

01:27:14   domino so we'll call this the domino camera camera bump from now on domino camera sure

01:27:20   good evening my name is D Griffin Jones from Athens Ohio a lot of people are asking if or when

01:27:26   the apple car will be released but what I would like to ask you is what what ludicrous luxury

01:27:32   features do you think it'll have that will make it exorbitantly expensive

01:27:36   I like this question thank you D Griffin I don't know what do you think Myke I my inclination is to

01:27:51   say that it's more likely that the apple car will seem fairly standard with a ludicrous price and

01:27:58   everybody will say wait a second why does it cost x when it doesn't have all of these ludicrous

01:28:07   features that are on other cars that's for sure right like that's one thing one thing is it will

01:28:12   be expensive and it will be lacking something and things and that will make people mad but I did have

01:28:16   a couple of things that I could imagine them doing one is like similar to what you were saying apple

01:28:22   will do some kind of like groundbreaking thing that nobody else does that will be more expensive

01:28:28   and make the experience worse in some way like I'm convinced of this because Tesla has this issue

01:28:34   right Tesla do these things all the time like people hate that new steering wheel thing the

01:28:38   yoke thing right and they're doing it because they're Tesla and they're saying it's better

01:28:42   but everybody thinks this seems to think it's terrible right yeah it's it's it's stupid but

01:28:47   the other things I could imagine is the materials in the interior especially will be quite premium

01:28:53   maybe more than they need to be and there won't be a basic version and I expect there'll be some

01:28:59   kind of like wild ar features in the dash oh yeah like there'll be a heads up heads up projection or

01:29:05   something and it will be like you know you know like how we had that rumor of like the the headset

01:29:12   with the two 8k displays in it which is like way more than it needs similar here right like it will

01:29:18   be some kind of like 8k ar feature which is like just like so much more complicated than is required

01:29:23   I think there will definitely be a feature that makes everybody say

01:29:27   why did you do this nobody wants this I mean that's sort of like what you said about the

01:29:34   Tesla yoke but you know right something that's like Apple has prioritized it and I think it's

01:29:39   really clever and everybody else is like I don't know why you did that that that's usually a given

01:29:45   right a baffling decision or or just something that they prioritize I'm thinking like how the

01:29:53   Tesla has the they got rid of the vents for for your air conditioning and heating and replaced

01:30:01   it with like a slot that runs the entire length of the dash it's like it's it's clever and interesting

01:30:07   but it's also like oh that's unusual right like I think there'll be things like that some of which

01:30:11   maybe will be like oh yeah that's very clever and others will be like why did you oh no buttons

01:30:16   there'll be no no no physical controls at all instead everything is controlled with

01:30:21   Siri or something yeah awesome touch screen stuff with touch screens but there'll be no buttons and

01:30:27   this is the thing that already frustrates people right no buttons like I've seen videos of the

01:30:32   Tesla thing like you know they got like the even like the park reverse neutral drive is on the

01:30:39   screen now and watching somebody do a three-point turn in one of the new Teslas looks hilarious to

01:30:45   me no it's such a bad idea too what are they doing uh yeah I think I think you're right Apple will do

01:30:52   some things like that I would love to believe that Apple will not make the mistakes that Tesla has

01:30:58   made and realize that that physical controls are important and that they'll do some physical

01:31:02   controls but my you know my fear is that they'll do some things that make us pull our hair out and

01:31:08   and war on buttons is always a good thing to guess from Apple I mean honestly I don't even think

01:31:13   about this because I don't think it's even close if ever yeah this car thing just with my own take

01:31:18   on it like they're trying like sure try it but like this I still remain unconvinced about this

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01:34:33   relay fm who's next Jason Snell well our next call Myke comes from Simon good day Myke and Jason this

01:34:41   is Simon from Albany in Western Australia and I want to know do you ever have dreams about

01:34:47   unreleased Apple products or software oh it's Simon from the aus as you said I love it I love

01:34:53   it this is so good you've got two Australians in today's episode you think Simon does the Nutbush

01:34:58   I'm certain of it so I had a dream last night it wasn't about uh products or service let me tell

01:35:08   you by the way Stephen Hackett has wild dreams he sometimes tweets them and they're usually about

01:35:13   like Apple related things because he has a dream journal so he actually writes this stuff down yeah

01:35:19   I'm not a good remember of dreams so I actually don't know if I have these kinds of dreams about

01:35:24   the skills to lack that's probably a pretty good one to not worry I'm fine with it but I did have

01:35:29   a dream last night about Apple so I just wanted to share it their website got hacked Apple's website

01:35:35   got hacked and they started by changing all of the leadership images like that's that's what they did

01:35:40   so it started off like first Johnny I've came back which was which was funny like Johnny I've

01:35:45   his image was there and then it changed to a picture of Johnny I've with electricity coming

01:35:50   out of his head and he was wearing like matrix style neo glasses so it was like a whole thing

01:35:56   then all of the uh did Johnny I've hack Apple was it him maybe I'm gonna put a link in the show notes

01:36:03   actually uh Matt found this I forgot about this Stephen posted one of his best ones at WWDC related

01:36:09   dream oh yeah I told Pixis a while ago I'm not gonna read it because it's too much I'm just

01:36:14   gonna let you go and read it like it's so good you gotta go treat yourself to violence is done

01:36:18   to Apple executives in that dream yeah it's bananas uh and then also um then the whole

01:36:25   website ended up getting hacked and the images started to look like so if you have if you're

01:36:30   a member of a bunch of discords uh on the left hand side there's like a doc right and they have

01:36:34   all the digital images then app all of Apple's images look like those and then the website just

01:36:39   went all weird so that was my dream last night uh I don't generally have dreams about Apple stuff

01:36:45   believe it or not but what I do have is classic stress dreams where you're unprepared for something

01:36:52   so the way it works is it's an Apple event that I'm late for or forgot about or I can't get in or

01:37:03   I get there too late it's always something like that so it's a physical event it's usually it used

01:37:08   to be infinite loop I suppose those dreams are Apple Park now but the idea is that it's an Apple

01:37:14   event and I've overslept or I am in the car or I forgot or I get there late and it's always it's

01:37:22   the it's the late for school didn't do your homework kind of dream adapted for an Apple event

01:37:27   I had one like this uh which was related to WWDC where for some reason I needed to do like

01:37:37   a dramatic reading of some kind that Tim Cook needed me to do from a book on stage and I didn't

01:37:45   do a very good job and he was really mad at me so that that was my like uh thing like that for some

01:37:52   reason I don't know I feel like uh this is a perfect transitional question because the rest

01:37:57   of our questions for today are more personal questions so um

01:38:05   pew pew pew pew I guess yeah sure I need to I need to fire off the lasers at some point so

01:38:11   there it is we're we're in the personal second. We get our one lasers per episode

01:38:15   quarters limit yeah. Hey Myke and Jason this is Colin from Bonita Springs Florida I'm just curious

01:38:21   on how you two first met and more importantly what were your first impressions of each other

01:38:26   when you did meet? Myke how did we meet? I was thinking about this Jason so I mean

01:38:34   there's there's like different there are different levels to this because of our lives right like the

01:38:39   first time we ever had an interaction I interviewed you on right one of my old podcasts I don't

01:38:46   remember when it was whether it was on the show that I used to do with my friend Terry or ever

01:38:51   it was after that I honestly do not remember it was this is going back a very long time now

01:38:56   oh yeah so there was that I mean obviously I was aware of you before you were aware of me because

01:39:02   I'd been following your work for years when you were at Macworld and stuff the first time we met

01:39:09   in person was at WWDC you invited me to the Macworld party so one every year at WWDC Macworld

01:39:19   used to host this party on the on the roof of the offices yeah it's a terrace so it was off the side

01:39:27   of our our floor there are a couple floors above it but like the the the building kind of gets

01:39:31   smaller at the top so that there's this big terrace out on the sixth floor that that is where we were

01:39:36   yeah so there was that and I know I went to that but I think the first time we had any kind of

01:39:44   meaningful meeting was at the all conference in like 2014 does that sound about right yeah I think

01:39:53   so the one the first one that was in Killarney instead of Kilkenny is that right that was the

01:39:59   first one I went to yeah that that's the first one I went to as well and I think that's I think

01:40:06   that's the one because then the rest of them were at the Europe out in Kilkenny but that one was in

01:40:14   Killarney so many Irish names that are so similar and that's where we had our chat and you were

01:40:21   talking about pens and then we were also talking about stuff and that was our first like real in

01:40:27   person thing but yeah I guess I guess I must have invited you to the Macworld party so that was our

01:40:31   first in person and then before that we had a podcast it's a whole thing so we barely remember

01:40:35   that how about first impressions I mean it doesn't count for me because I was aware of you before

01:40:42   right like very well yeah I mean look my but like the impression I get that the biggest conversation

01:40:50   that we had was when we sat down and we had a very big in-depth conversation about what we wanted to

01:40:54   do in our futures when we had breakfast one morning which was that probably the genesis of upgrade

01:41:02   going all the way back to them I mean and I just left that experience just believing what I already

01:41:10   thought that you were very interesting very kind and very smart person who I dreamed of working

01:41:16   with one day and here we are oh that's very kind well Myke I've got some great news for you love it

01:41:23   I still have all my old emails okay oh wow all right you can work it out and so on February 19th

01:41:31   of 2012 at 1204 pm pacific time Myke Hurley wrote Jason the name of podcast is a tech podcast based

01:41:39   in the UK every week me and my co-host Terrence have a guest on to interview and discuss the

01:41:44   latest news with an apple slant we usually record on Wednesdays at 8 pm our time which I believe is

01:41:49   noon for you we have our 100th episode coming up on March 14th and I'd love you to be a part of it

01:41:54   we can be flexible with the time if necessary thanks man all the best Myke wow look at that

01:42:00   all right so there is on this relay FM re-hosts a bunch of shows that were pre relay FM shows

01:42:09   that show became a show called command space in august of 2012 just a few months later I had you

01:42:14   back on the show but I wasn't on Stephen filled in for me because I was sick yeah and that's I

01:42:22   kept thinking that the first time I was on your podcast you weren't on but that's not true it was

01:42:28   the next time when it had become command space that that I was on without you the I think it's

01:42:37   also telling that my response to you was literally um Wednesdays at noon I would like to say

01:42:47   Wednesdays at noon are good for me but I look out a few weeks and they don't seem to be so good I

01:42:50   might be able to do February 29th or March 14th if you want to move to another time I can probably

01:42:55   find something better so my response was not like hey thanks for being on who are you again it was

01:42:59   like here's when I'm available it's just kind of open door there so isn't that nice and then you

01:43:05   sent me a uh you sent me an email saying are we still okay for tomorrow and here's what we want

01:43:11   to talk about the new ipad which one I don't know 2012 twitter buying posterous

01:43:18   and the upcoming angry bird space are we excited or do we have red bird fatigue we definitely had

01:43:31   red bird fatigue at that point I'm exhausted even now about that so that's March 2012 which mike is

01:43:38   nine years ago god so that my my memory is that you were uh one of these people in the mac apple

01:43:47   space who is doing stuff and wants to talk to me and I had a very much an open door kind of policy

01:43:53   of like sure sounds great but that's fun um right so that was different and we had a good and then

01:43:59   we had a good chat like there weren't many people doing that like yeah and I was interested about

01:44:04   pod I was interested in podcasts right and I did have my own podcast but we had the macworld podcast

01:44:08   and you know we had the studio set up at macworld which is I think where we did that um interview I

01:44:13   think I went into the the pod cave at macworld and uh so yeah that's our I guess that's our story and

01:44:18   then and then yes I obviously I appreciated your your diligence and your interview style and then

01:44:22   we got to have that chat at ull which was really the kind of kicking off of our uh larger love

01:44:28   affair relationship yeah sure exactly yes hey this is lisa calling in from tennessee in the us and my

01:44:36   question is if you could go for a week-long vacation in any fictional world where would

01:44:41   you go and what would you do there oh wow this is man I struggled with this question I've been

01:44:46   thinking about this one a lot I want to say the key here is I want very little chance that I'm

01:44:52   going to die right well then you're gonna pick something really boring no no I just I I and if

01:45:00   I go to a fictional universe I want to go to the part of it where bad things don't happen right

01:45:05   like okay like if I want to go to star trek I don't want to be like on the enterprise where

01:45:12   I'm gonna wear a red shirt and die right I just want to be on like an awesome planet okay that

01:45:18   is awesome and futuristic and cool but probably not going to be bombed by klingons right like

01:45:25   that's what I want for my vacation in a world um so and I would probably pick a a fictional world

01:45:35   that is like futuristic and and awesome that that sounds like what I would do so yeah I would

01:45:41   probably pick star trek but I again I I just want to make this clear I don't want to be on a star

01:45:48   ship wearing a red shirt or really on a starship at all because they blow up sometimes I don't want

01:45:53   to I don't want to do that I don't want to be taken prisoner by alien menaces I don't want to

01:45:58   have to separate the saucer and crash into a planet I don't want to do any of those things

01:46:03   I just want to hang out on like Raisa the pleasure planet for a week a week on the star trek pleasure

01:46:09   planet sounds great oh boy um harry potter I thought about it a bunch after Voldemort is dead

01:46:17   yeah yeah sure but you just be a muggle you would you wouldn't even know it was

01:46:20   I don't know that you don't know that oh so harry potter but you're in with the

01:46:24   the magic people maybe but I still you know a world with magic in it seems really interesting

01:46:32   like I originally thought of like like the marvel universe but realized that's probably not good

01:46:37   like no I wouldn't be able to experience any of the good oh no no no so I thought that that

01:46:43   harry potter would be kind of cool maybe I could be a magician a wizard magician a magician what a

01:46:51   wow wizard some I don't know I thought it'd be kind of kind of cool no that's good that's good

01:46:56   I like that idea at all so that's that's a that's a good one magician yeah you know hi

01:47:02   Jason and Myke I'm listener James calling in from New York City my hashtag ask upgrade out loud

01:47:08   question is inspired by some of the discussion from last week's episode if you could write and

01:47:14   publish a book without needing to worry about all the actual logistics of fitting such a passion

01:47:19   project into your life right now what would that book be um well I've I've written some books

01:47:26   and so it would be a novel that I would write or have written or I would write to completion my

01:47:32   problem is that I wrote drafts and then they just sit there and they need to be rewritten and I

01:47:36   haven't rewritten them because I left my job and you know as an independent worker one of the

01:47:43   problems I struggle with is doing spending a lot of time doing work I already work a lot and I

01:47:49   generally am working on things that that are projects that I've committed to and that are

01:47:54   ongoing and I don't have a lot it's hard for me to basically say now I'm going to spend a day

01:47:59   a week or whatever working on my novel and I've tried a few times and it just hasn't happened but

01:48:04   if I had the ability that would be I'd get some of the stuff I've already written into shape

01:48:07   and or maybe start something new that's that's not maybe exactly the answer that you wanted James but

01:48:14   that that would be the answer is that I would I would finish one of these novels that I've written

01:48:18   or I mean they're finished but like I'd rewrite them or I'd write something new I mean I have

01:48:22   great dreams of writing something fictional like so many people do right like I would just I would

01:48:26   adore it like to create a world of my own and write something about it I don't have any particular

01:48:33   idea like anytime I've ever thought about it it just depends to be what is the thing that I'm most

01:48:37   interested in right now you know like what is the world that interests me the most I don't have a

01:48:44   particular thing but one day I would I would love to try and do it one day to write some kind of

01:48:49   fiction but I don't I don't know what that would be all right that's that's fine that's that's uh

01:48:58   we'll just put it out there now our next question it comes from Justin and it is labeled Star Trek

01:49:04   my name is Justin calling in from Iowa in the United States my question is for Jason do you

01:49:10   prefer the earlier episodes of SG-1 when they are outmatched against the Gua'uld or would you

01:49:16   like the later episodes where the Tauri have Asgard and ancient technology also do you like

01:49:22   Atlantis and universe or do you only like SG-1 so Myke this is not Star Trek at all I was like Star

01:49:32   Trek question interesting and then he says SG-1 and I'm like oh nice pronunciation of the Gua'uld

01:49:39   I thought that this was the spin-off but it's not no this isn't the Star Trek spin-off that's Voyager

01:49:45   right like I got Voyager and Stargate mixed up in my brain there's lots of Star Trek spin-offs

01:49:50   yeah I know but all these things and there's lots of Stargate shows and I didn't care about any of

01:49:54   them right so to me it was Star Trek I'm just yeah I know this is the this is a recurring bit

01:49:59   on the incomparable where Steve Letts assumes that all science fiction tv shows are Star Trek

01:50:03   I mean Steve are in complete agreement about this all right yeah love that Star Trek Babylon 5 anyway

01:50:10   uh Justin thank you for your nerdy Stargate question I do love Stargate uh I like the early

01:50:15   years of SG-1 I found the um other spin-offs to be not as good I thought the later years of the main

01:50:25   show were not as good um uh I did watch the spin-offs but I didn't particularly enjoy them

01:50:34   so my real love is in the first five-ish five six seasons of the original show which is awesome and

01:50:40   I bought all the DVDs and I have them on my plex and I watch them as comfort food because they're

01:50:45   very uh enjoyable and comfortable and I hope that uh at some point here somebody brings that

01:50:52   franchise back because that was a lot of fun that's a fun fun sci-fi franchise although not

01:50:57   Star Trek I'm glad we had this talk hi Jason and Myke my name is Michael and I'm from Vancouver BC

01:51:03   what are your favorite sports ball uniforms of all time and which ones do you like the least

01:51:08   Vancouver again I know these Canadians wow they're on it uh you you should change the show somehow

01:51:15   and make it all Canadian focused believe it or not I actually do have an answer for 50% of this

01:51:21   question a sports jersey that I adored at the time and still really do love is the Italian

01:51:31   national football shirt for the Euro 2000 championship it was made by a company called

01:51:38   Kappa and the thing that made this shirt very different is that it was very like clingy like

01:51:45   the shirt was very clingy almost like a surf shirt you know like you the shirt you wear for surfing

01:51:50   and it was very fashionable at the time had a very different color that kind of thing and I remember

01:51:56   like people like me wanted it because it looked really different and interesting and I owned it I

01:52:01   ended up buying a replica shirt and loved it so I don't have a great answer here because I have

01:52:07   too many answers I think this is a great question and I wonder if Michael has actually already aware

01:52:13   of this but I actually have opinions and I care about uniforms I am a regular viewer and I'm gonna

01:52:20   or reader and I'm gonna throw it out there for people who don't know uni watch uni-watch.com

01:52:27   the obsessive study of athletics aesthetics if you're somebody who cares about uniform designs

01:52:35   um all-time favorites I don't know I have lots that's the problem I like a lot of the classic

01:52:44   designs my favorite baseball team the San Francisco Giants have a classic home uniform that

01:52:49   I really like that's like off-white it's kind of a cream color and it's got the block giants on it

01:52:54   and an interesting font and like it's a it's a beautiful classic uniform I'm not a Yankee fan

01:52:59   but you know that is a classic I love the new San Diego Padres jerseys that are brown they brought

01:53:06   back their brown and yellow color scheme my favorite American football jersey is probably

01:53:11   the powder blue San Diego Chargers jerseys because they're gorgeous I just I like them a lot

01:53:20   I have a lot of opinions about ugly jerseys but like there's so many bad jerseys there's so many

01:53:28   bad uniforms out there that I'm not sure I could I mean the worst dressed team in baseball is the

01:53:34   Arizona Diamondbacks their their uniforms are terrible um I'll do a shout out to the Indianapolis

01:53:41   Colts I think they have one of the best NFL uniforms it's super simple but you don't mess

01:53:45   with the classics and I gotta be honest Myke I don't like most soccer kits because I just can't

01:53:52   get over the giant ads on them and it makes me sad because they they try really hard to give them

01:53:59   personality there's some really nice Euro 2020 uniforms by the way that that we're doing like

01:54:05   a very subtle background like patterns and stuff but the major leagues like it's so dominant by the

01:54:12   advertising they put on it that it's hard to focus on the little bits around the edges where they're

01:54:18   trying to give you something nice to look at so that that always makes me sad and I know that's

01:54:24   just it's a cultural thing and probably those giant ads are coming to every uniform ever

01:54:28   but I think it takes away a lot from from that I have lots of opinions about uniforms I think that

01:54:33   is the benefit of the national teams is that they don't have sponsorship on their kits yeah yeah and

01:54:38   there are there are lots but but honestly Michael I would have to take I would have to do like hours

01:54:44   and hours of research to even begin to formulate a list because I have so many opinions about this so

01:54:49   anyway I threw I threw some out there and that's just that's just how it's gonna be I'm sorry I'm

01:54:57   sure there I'm gonna kick myself that there's some terrible NFL uniform that I'm not thinking of that

01:55:03   is really bad but I I'm not thinking of it so oh well hi Myke and Jason this is Kim from Budapest

01:55:10   I have a question for Myke have you ever tried to convince Jason to try any fountain pens and if yes

01:55:16   how was the result thanks no I have there is a bar that people have to cross before I will consider

01:55:26   trying like getting them to try out fountain pens very few of my friends have across this bar

01:55:31   like I will try and get people to get better pens in their lives but there is so many things that I

01:55:38   would have them try out before we would get the fountain pen I do have better pens in my life

01:55:45   than before I met you yeah I do I have some I have some very nice pens now in my little

01:55:50   pen holder on my desk that I don't use that often but when I do I I don't use pens very much I mean

01:55:58   that's the the truth of it is I don't use pens very much I don't hand write things much at all

01:56:03   but I have come around to the idea I mean I already had I was already using a nicer kind of like a gel

01:56:09   pen but now I have some nicer actual like metal pens too if you're gonna use a pen you should use

01:56:14   a good pen I think but um but yeah I'm not even close to the bar of something like that because

01:56:20   like your your work with with me is just to have me have decent pens like literally it's just don't

01:56:26   embarrass yourself use put down the the Bic disposable pen get a nice pen and I have some

01:56:33   nice pens now but that's nice for me anyway but nicer than what I might have been using before

01:56:38   I think you've I think that's far enough I think you're wise to do that you gotta know your limits

01:56:44   yeah where we come together is on on keyboards but that's probably a discussion for Upgrade Plus

01:56:50   if you would like to listen to us talk a bit about keyboards today which I think we will

01:56:55   go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up five dollars a month or fifty dollars a year you get

01:56:59   longer ad-free versions of every single episode of Upgrade. And that brings us to our final question

01:57:07   Hey there Myke and Jason this is a friend of the show Zach from Virginia if you had to award an

01:57:13   upgrade for the most fun summer of fun bit not including this call-in show what would you award

01:57:19   that to that could be you know most fun to record or edit the most summary of all of the bits or

01:57:25   just the concept that you thought was the most fun? Zach is responsible for the scorecards so

01:57:32   he's an actual real friend of the show. I also want to contrast Zach with Chance because Chance was

01:57:37   big and Zach is very small. Just different it's it's been fun to hear everybody's voices. These

01:57:45   are the bookends. I have a feeling that you and I are probably gonna pick the same one which is the

01:57:51   Backward episode. Downgrade yeah yeah it was the first big one where like this episode and others

01:57:59   you mentioned Outgrade earlier and then also the holiday specials where instead of just having a

01:58:04   topic an entire episode is doing something weird and yeah this is one of those. Downgrade. Episode

01:58:11   254 July 2019 I think I even said this at the time but like as a kid growing up as a teenager I

01:58:19   watched Late Night with David Letterman and they did all sorts of like format breaking episodes

01:58:25   including one where they rotated the the picture like 360 degrees during the episode so by halfway

01:58:31   through the whole picture was upside down and like they just did they didn't care they were like

01:58:36   trying stuff out and and the downgrade idea I just got a real kick out of the idea that we're

01:58:41   literally just doing the show with the segments reversed so we would say goodbye and then we would

01:58:47   do Ask Upgrade and it would go all the way back to the start where we would say hello and that would

01:58:51   be the end of the episode and then theme played backward like so it was a perfectly listenable

01:58:56   podcast all that was different was the sequence in which we did things but I love I love doing that

01:59:01   that was such a great moment of like yes we can do some weird things with the show and it's going to

01:59:06   be fine and since then yes the Outgrade was a lot of fun a lot of those kind of high concept episodes

01:59:12   and this one is going to be in high up on the list now too having the having the call in we do have

01:59:17   some other high concept ideas for format breaking episodes that we will do at some point might not

01:59:25   be this year because we may only have two weeks left I suspect that the summer of fun may rapidly

01:59:31   be coming to an end yeah if Apple were to announce an event for the seventh or the 14th we may rapidly

01:59:41   have to enter into draft and iPhone mode so this might be the end of it I don't know

01:59:48   yeah on that note we are expecting that we'll be doing an emergency draft like I don't you know we

01:59:58   spoke about this earlier it's down to Apple and when Apple announces their event and for these

02:00:03   virtual events they've been announcing it seven days before and they've been Tuesday events which

02:00:08   means that they would make the announcement after we've recorded that that week's upgrade if that

02:00:11   continues to happen we will once again have to do an emergency draft episode where we make our draft

02:00:16   selections and then we will do our post event episode where we also talk about who won the draft

02:00:23   and we would prefer not to do it that way we would prefer to have a little more warning but that's

02:00:28   just how it's been yeah I don't think there's going to be any change I'm almost convinced this will be

02:00:33   a fully virtual event I don't think that there will be an in-person element so Apple will most

02:00:38   likely only give one week's notice in that guard so basically I'm expecting either this week we

02:00:43   Tuesday or Wednesday we find out or next Tuesday or Wednesday we find out and then we'll have to do

02:00:49   a draft episode towards the end of that week so I think that's it I think that is this has been a

02:00:56   great success I think we're bringing this one back I could imagine this being 24 we got way more by

02:01:01   the way yeah I will say we didn't answer all the questions if your question didn't get answered it

02:01:06   wasn't because it was bad it just some of the questions were good questions but neither of us

02:01:11   had answers to them and if we don't have answers to a question there's no point putting the question

02:01:15   in right but thank you to everybody that did someone in I think we would definitely do this

02:01:20   again I could imagine this being something that we would do in future summer of funds because summers

02:01:27   of fun it was great and this wasn't like some of our other episodes where it's really really hard

02:01:33   to do this this wasn't like really complicated to do it was pretty straightforward actually so

02:01:39   that's good thank you to Ferrago from Rogue Amoeba yeah that's right yes yes I all the Rogue Amoeba

02:01:46   products were very helpful in putting this together for Rago and audio hijack and loop back to make it

02:01:51   happen but yeah I have that whole setup for the incomparable when we do our clip show at the end

02:01:55   of the year where I play in clips from previous episodes and I'm just using that same setup here

02:02:01   so that was actually fairly easy to do so so yeah I think we'll bring this back at some point we

02:02:06   could do it we could do it as an ongoing but the truth is I think that then we wouldn't get very

02:02:10   many and it's better off having a special window that opens and that people send in for that episode

02:02:16   and then we close the window again is it that'll be I'll be real right like people say why don't

02:02:20   you just ask it every time because it's so much easier for me to pick the questions and edit the

02:02:24   text than it is for me to pick the questions edit the audio and get the audio like it's just easier

02:02:30   for us to do it this way and and I don't I'm not sure if the audio questions add that much more I

02:02:37   don't know I'll leave a pin in that but it's it's unlikely that we would switch to audio questions

02:02:42   for uh ask upgrade because as well like I know not everybody's going to want to do that like some

02:02:48   people would just prefer to send their question in via text right on on uh tv talk machine we mixed

02:02:54   and matched a little bit but I will tell you that what happens is that people forget to send in

02:02:58   questions for a while and I already had that yeah you don't get the burst of uh of questions that

02:03:04   we get from this so like I said I think it may be more fun to occasionally do an ask upgrade out loud

02:03:10   episode and just have people um do their questions then if you would like to send in a question for a

02:03:18   regular segment just send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or use question mark ask

02:03:22   upgrade and we'll be doing more of those next week thank you so much though to everybody that did

02:03:27   send in a question we really really appreciate it and thank you for making this episode so summary

02:03:33   and funnery thank you to door dash pingdom amazon music and discourse for supporting this week's show

02:03:39   and thank you to everybody that supports us with an upgrade plus membership as well we really

02:03:44   appreciate that if you'd like to find jason online go to sixcolors.com and he's at jasonl on twitter

02:03:49   j s n e double l i'm at i mike i m y k e don't forget to go and check out our fundraiser for

02:03:55   st jews children's research hospital go to st jude.org slash relay and you can donate and we really

02:04:01   really appreciate it and so will st jude so thank you so much for everybody that has done and will

02:04:06   do throughout now and throughout september we'll be back next week of another episode of upgrade

02:04:12   until then say goodbye jason snow they're calling again good night everybody good night vancouver we

02:04:16   love you

02:04:26   frasier has left the building