00:00:17 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 368, and today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,
00:00:24 ◼ ► Discourse, DoorDash, and Amazon Music. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell.
00:00:49 ◼ ► you're going to be hearing questions from our upgradeians. And we're actually going to start
00:00:59 ◼ ► Hi, Myke and Jason. It's Ellen from Australia. My question is, when you're all able to get together
00:01:07 ◼ ► again and have a big party, what's the canonical dance move that everybody knows? In Australia,
00:01:22 ◼ ► The Nutbush is a dance that is to a Tina Turner song called Nutbush City Limits. And for some
00:01:31 ◼ ► reason, this line dance has become very popular in Australia. And it is expected that all
00:01:37 ◼ ► Australians know how to do the Nutbush. So I'll put some links in the show notes to both a video
00:01:43 ◼ ► showing a bunch of Australians doing the Nutbush and the Wikipedia article. Is there one that
00:01:53 ◼ ► A dance that everyone knows. Well, first off, I tend not to be around places where people
00:01:59 ◼ ► are dancing. Like if people start dancing, that's my cue to get out of there. So I don't
00:02:07 ◼ ► know if there is. I'm sure it varies from, right? Like they're novelty dances. So there's
00:02:12 ◼ ► certain phases of time where everybody knows. Sure, the Macarena, you're dating me, but yeah,
00:02:18 ◼ ► that's true. That was a dance craze. And there was a period in there where every dad knew,
00:02:26 ◼ ► oh, what was it that every dad knew how to do? You know, there's always the, and then they
00:02:31 ◼ ► embarrass every child with it. Now I can't even remember what it was. There's dance crazes. They
00:02:34 ◼ ► happen. I don't have an answer here. If I was forced to try to do a dance move of any kind,
00:02:39 ◼ ► it would be the robot, just for irony reasons. So I was trying to think of a dance, like a
00:02:46 ◼ ► group dance that was equally perplexing, I think, to non, from people who don't live in the place,
00:02:52 ◼ ► you know, like to everyone outside of Australia, it is absolutely perplexing that the Nutbush is
00:02:57 ◼ ► caught on so much. So Jason, I would like to tell you about a dance called Oops Upside Your Head,
00:03:09 ◼ ► paren Oops, retitled to Oops Upside Your Head because of the dance that became afterwards.
00:03:17 ◼ ► I've put a link in the show notes to a video here. It is, unfortunately, I didn't do a very good job
00:03:25 ◼ ► really looking around Wikipedia to find a good video. And the main issue is because every video
00:03:32 ◼ ► on YouTube, I should say, where people are doing this dance, they're incredibly drunk in the UK.
00:03:38 ◼ ► This is typically done at weddings, and you have to do this at the point where everyone is so drunk
00:03:44 ◼ ► that they'll do it. So I ended up finding a, like from a kids music YouTube channel. So it's much
00:03:52 ◼ ► more tame, which is a good thing. In Oops Upside Your Head, everybody sits down on the ground in a
00:03:57 ◼ ► line. So you sit directly behind the person behind you. And mostly the song is you hitting the ground
00:04:06 ◼ ► with your hands and clapping over your head and like moving backwards and forwards. It's very
00:04:11 ◼ ► strange. I cannot describe it to you. You just have to watch it. There's lots of shimmying.
00:04:17 ◼ ► - Everybody knows how to do it? - Everyone knows. When this song starts at like a wedding in England,
00:04:22 ◼ ► it's like everyone's down on the ground. We all know what's going on. It's the same as like if
00:04:27 ◼ ► there was a conga. It's that kind of idea. - Yeah. I remembered what the dance move is that every
00:04:33 ◼ ► suburban dad knows and embarrasses their kids with, and it's flossing. - Oh, Jason, no. - Yeah.
00:04:39 ◼ ► - Oh, Jason, no. - Not me, but I can't tell you how many suburban dads I saw who learned how to
00:04:47 ◼ ► floss so that they could embarrass their children. - That upsets me. That upsets me greatly.
00:04:52 ◼ ► - That was a great way to open the show. We do have some, before we get to many, many more
00:04:57 ◼ ► questions today, we have some matters to settle, but usually you can send in a question to open
00:05:03 ◼ ► the show with the hashtag Snowtalk. Just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snowtalk or use
00:05:07 ◼ ► question mark Snowtalk in the Relay FM members Discord. I would like to give our Upgradients
00:05:12 ◼ ► an update on our fundraising efforts for St. Jude this year. As of recording, we have raised over
00:05:19 ◼ ► $70,000 in our campaign, which is absolutely unbelievable. Thank you so much to everybody
00:05:24 ◼ ► that has donated so far as we continue to work our way towards our fundraising goals for this year.
00:05:30 ◼ ► I want to tell you a little bit more about St. Jude and why we do this work. So September is
00:05:35 ◼ ► Childhood Cancer Awareness Month, and for the third consecutive year, we are all supporting
00:05:39 ◼ ► the life-saving mission of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. That mission is finding cures
00:05:44 ◼ ► and saving children because cancer kills more children under the age of 14 than any other
00:05:50 ◼ ► disease. Doctors from all 50 US states and around the world refer their patients to St. Jude because
00:05:55 ◼ ► they have the world's best survival rates for some of the most aggressive childhood cancers.
00:06:04 ◼ ► worldwide, including kids in your community. This September, you can join Relay FM's efforts
00:06:09 ◼ ► to raise the funds and awareness needed to treat and defeat childhood cancer by donating
00:06:14 ◼ ► at stjude.org/relay. Any donor making a single gift of $100 or more will receive an exclusive
00:06:20 ◼ ► Relay FM sticker or thanks pack at the end of the campaign. And if you do donate and your company has
00:06:25 ◼ ► a corporate matching program, please send us an email and we can have that amount routed through
00:06:30 ◼ ► to the campaign. If you just email steven@relay.fm with any proof of your corporate matching, that
00:06:37 ◼ ► will get added into our campaign total. So also as well, if you are donating, check if your company
00:06:43 ◼ ► has a matching scheme. So we'd really appreciate that. So throughout September as well, there's
00:06:49 ◼ ► going to be a bunch of milestone live streams put on by Steven and myself. You can go to stjude.org/relay
00:06:54 ◼ ► you can find out what they are, when they're going to be. So go to stjude.org/relay. Let's cure
00:06:59 ◼ ► childhood cancer together. I got some follow up and little items for you, Jason. There's one thing
00:07:05 ◼ ► that we kind of just have to cover today, but like ultimately I think it's kind of ridiculous.
00:07:11 ◼ ► Honestly, I'm happy we have such a busy show so we don't have to spend a bunch of time talking about
00:07:15 ◼ ► this. I actually haven't posted about this on six colors either because there's really nothing
00:07:19 ◼ ► that I would say other than that this is nothing and don't try to ascribe more meaning to it
00:07:24 ◼ ► because there isn't any. Apple sells a class action lawsuit with US developers. They put out a big
00:07:30 ◼ ► press release about this. A bunch of newspapers and stuff wrote some stories. I really like to
00:07:36 ◼ ► piece by Ben Thompson today on Chitakkari. I think it was the daily update basically saying like
00:07:42 ◼ ► Apple tricked a bunch of large media companies into thinking that this was something that was
00:07:47 ◼ ► really good for developers, but actually kind of nothing changed and maybe some things kind of got
00:07:53 ◼ ► worse. I want to run through the things from this class action lawsuit, this settlement that was made
00:07:58 ◼ ► that Apple have stated. They're going to maintain the small business program for three years in its
00:08:04 ◼ ► current form. This is where they give developers who make under a million dollars 15% instead of 30%.
00:08:12 ◼ ► I think this is worse for two ways. One, it's saying it's for three years. Was it going to be
00:08:17 ◼ ► more or less? Who knows? In its current form, the current form isn't good enough so hooray.
00:08:22 ◼ ► They've reiterated a bunch of App Store search rules and reiterated that they're going to keep
00:08:28 ◼ ► their rejection appeal process in place. Apple has stated that developers can email customers
00:08:34 ◼ ► about other payment options. I think we'll come back to that one. They're adding more price points,
00:08:39 ◼ ► over 500 possible price points for a developer. They're going to make an annual transparency
00:08:49 ◼ ► This is branding for the payout for this class action lawsuit. So developers, if they meet the
00:08:54 ◼ ► conditions required, can apply to receive money and then by taking that money they cannot take
00:09:00 ◼ ► any further legal action against Apple for these things. But the lawyers who did all of this work
00:09:08 ◼ ► apparently trying to take 30% of that 100 million dollars. So it's all great. The thing that people
00:09:14 ◼ ► originally thought was exciting but it turns out just isn't, is that developers can email
00:09:19 ◼ ► customers about payment options. This is no change to anything. Apple tried to have some rules but
00:09:27 ◼ ► there was no way that they could have discovered or enforced these rules before. They don't give
00:09:32 ◼ ► you an email list. You have to have acquired the email list. Anyone could have emailed their
00:09:37 ◼ ► customer base and said, "Oh, by the way, you can pay us on our website." I don't think it's made
00:09:41 ◼ ► a difference to absolutely anything. But now it's like if you were worried Apple was going to kick
00:09:46 ◼ ► you out of the store over this then they can't now. This is... So essentially there was a class
00:09:52 ◼ ► action lawsuit. They weren't going to get any... The people suing were not going to get anything
00:09:56 ◼ ► out of Apple. So they settled. The settlement lets Apple announce that they settled a lawsuit
00:10:02 ◼ ► which makes... And you're exactly right. It makes a lot of people who don't know a lot about the
00:10:07 ◼ ► current situation in the App Store think that there's progress here. It makes Apple look like
00:10:11 ◼ ► they are settling with developers and solving these controversies that are out there. When in
00:10:19 ◼ ► fact the settlement essentially doesn't require Apple to give anything away other than this $100
00:10:45 ◼ ► >> And that PR move is again to signify to the people who think that Apple have to change their
00:10:54 ◼ ► what's called steering provisions which is where they make you pay. They don't allow you to tell
00:11:00 ◼ ► people to pay outside or whatever. This makes it seem like they're backing down on that but really
00:11:08 ◼ ► They're agreeing to allow developers to do something that developers already basically could do.
00:11:14 ◼ ► And the rules about what developers can't do. A lot of stories sort of made assumptions,
00:11:24 ◼ ► this as a press release and a briefing and all these things to steer it in the way that they
00:11:28 ◼ ► wanted it to be covered. And so people took it as being maybe what Apple said of being a big deal.
00:11:36 ◼ ► And the truth is that a lot of the details when you burrow down into them are completely unchanged
00:11:42 ◼ ► from how it was before. So while there may be some little things that happen at least in the US,
00:11:47 ◼ ► because this is an American lawsuit and I believe only covers the United States anyway, really it's
00:11:53 ◼ ► nothing other than Apple PR. And if there are small changes, they're so small as to be immaterial
00:12:00 ◼ ► or beside the point. Like adding more price points is maybe a change but doesn't... It's not what this
00:12:08 ◼ ► is about, right? It's Apple giving ground on something that doesn't matter and that isn't what
00:12:13 ◼ ► people are watching Apple for. So this is essentially Apple reaping a PR benefit out of
00:12:20 ◼ ► this class action lawsuit. They pay a hundred million dollars and they get to look like they're
00:12:32 ◼ ► I mean, and honestly like James Thompson's posted in the Discord, this just makes it even more BS
00:12:38 ◼ ► than it currently already is. Even those rules about the email, it's like US only. So like,
00:12:43 ◼ ► "Oh, you know what? We've already given this more time. I don't want to spend the rest of this
00:12:47 ◼ ► episode getting angry about this because I just... I will." No, the point I think we need to tell
00:12:51 ◼ ► people who listen to upgrade is if you saw a story over the weekend that said Apple was burying the
00:12:57 ◼ ► hatchet with developers and making substantive changes to the App Store in order to make
00:13:01 ◼ ► developers happy, that's not true. That's not really what happened. And we're basically not
00:13:09 ◼ ► in any different state than we were before unless Apple's PR move here somehow provides a fig leaf
00:13:18 ◼ ► for politicians or whoever to say, "Oh, Apple's shaping up." But anybody who knows anything about
00:13:25 ◼ ► this, including all the developers we know, all the people like the Coalition for App Fairness
00:13:33 ◼ ► - Let's do a couple of Apple TV Plus headlines for Upstream. Ted Lasso cleaned up at the
00:13:40 ◼ ► first annual, they called it that Jason, HCA TV Awards. I was so excited. I tuned into their
00:13:47 ◼ ► YouTube channel for a little bit and they called it the first annual Hollywood Critics Association
00:13:52 ◼ ► TV Awards. - Who are the Hollywood Critics Association? What is that? That's a well-founded
00:14:00 ◼ ► in late 2016, says the Apple press release. Very prestigious. - Yeah, this is a new thing.
00:14:06 ◼ ► This was a rebrand of a previous award ceremony, I think. I was looking into this. But this was
00:14:12 ◼ ► a legit, like this seemed to be something that people were excited about before today. Like,
00:14:16 ◼ ► I tuned in and they had a bunch of people there. Like this seems to be a deal. I don't know why.
00:14:21 ◼ ► But Apple won or Ted Lasso, for Ted Lasso, best streaming series in a comedy, best actor in a
00:14:28 ◼ ► comedy for Jason Sudeikis, best supporting actor for Brett Goldstein, who plays Roy Kent,
00:14:34 ◼ ► best supporting actress for Hannah Waddingham, who plays Rebecca. They got all of those for
00:14:40 ◼ ► Ted Lasso. So four. They also, Rupert Grint for Servant won best actor in a streaming series for
00:14:46 ◼ ► drama. So pretty good outing. And I think this is going to be, you know, like we said before,
00:14:53 ◼ ► the start of a very big award season for Ted Lasso. - Yeah. - Speaking of Ted Lasso, I was on an
00:15:00 ◼ ► episode with you and Brian Hamilton and my wife, Adina, of Football is Life, which is the
00:15:06 ◼ ► incomparable episode by episode recap podcast of Ted Lasso. And so you can go and check that out.
00:15:11 ◼ ► It's episode 16 of the show for series two, episode six, The Signal, which was a really
00:15:17 ◼ ► interesting episode. And I'm very happy that I was able to be a part of the recap for that one.
00:15:21 ◼ ► - Yeah. We have a good time. That was a fun, fun time. A lot of podcasts this weekend for me,
00:15:26 ◼ ► but that was a good one. - And The Problem with Jon Stewart will be debuting on September 30th
00:15:32 ◼ ► if they had a little teaser trailer that I enjoyed today. I enjoyed this teaser trailer way more than
00:15:36 ◼ ► I did the teaser sketch that they did. - Yeah. Yeah. - And they also, I don't know if this was
00:15:43 ◼ ► news or not. I couldn't remember, but one of the jokes in it, I won't spoil it, but it references,
00:15:54 ◼ ► which is actually available to subscribe to now in Apple podcasts. - Yeah, of course. - I'm excited
00:16:00 ◼ ► for the show. I don't really know what to expect, honestly. So I'm pretty jazzed about it. - Yeah.
00:16:05 ◼ ► Yeah. It'll be good to see Jon Stewart again. - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by
00:16:17 ◼ ► Overflow, Robin Ward, and Sam Safran. It is a powerful, flexible, open-source community
00:16:23 ◼ ► platform where discussions are searchable so you're able to find all of the relevant details
00:16:28 ◼ ► for your project or community. The platform is designed with moderation in mind, helping you keep
00:16:33 ◼ ► the discussion on track and high value while minimizing the impact of trolls, and it integrates
00:16:39 ◼ ► with Zapier, Patreon, Memberfall, and so many more. I've spent a bunch of time looking in the
00:16:45 ◼ ► MacPowerUsers discourse forum, so they have one for MacPowerUsers. And I really love how easily
00:16:51 ◼ ► and neatly everything is presented and laid out. Now that I have seen and used Discourse,
00:16:56 ◼ ► I never want to look at any other old-looking forum again. This is what everyone should be using.
00:17:02 ◼ ► What I like is not only can you choose different ways to display things, like hot topics or latest
00:17:08 ◼ ► topics, everything's nice and searchable and it loads really smoothly and fast, and doesn't feel
00:17:14 ◼ ► like it was made 30 years ago like a lot of forums do. Discourse offers a 100% 14-day free trial.
00:17:22 ◼ ► After that, plans start at $100 a month. And the folks over at Discourse are giving upgrade
00:17:27 ◼ ► listeners 50% off your first two months after you start your subscription. So just go to
00:17:33 ◼ ► Discourse.org. That's D-I-S-C-O-U-R-S-E.org. Use the coupon code RELAY2021 when signing up.
00:17:41 ◼ ► That's Discourse.org and the code RELAY2021 for 50% off your first two months. I also want to
00:17:48 ◼ ► mention that they have a new offering called Discourse for Teams. This is perfect for small
00:17:52 ◼ ► teams or businesses looking to use Discourse to collaborate because it is a private, focused
00:17:58 ◼ ► Discourse instance with added features like a new sidebar, automatic icebreaker tools, team updates,
00:18:03 ◼ ► and more to help groups of people work together more effectively. There isn't currently an offer
00:18:08 ◼ ► code for the teams, but the plans start at just $20 a month. If you want to learn more about that,
00:18:12 ◼ ► you can go to teams.discourse.com. Our thanks to Discourse for their support of this show
00:18:17 ◼ ► and Relay FM. All right, let's get to our Ask Upgrade Out Loud questions. We have so many,
00:18:27 ◼ ► All right, here's our first one. This is Chance from Illinois. I wanted to ask if you think the
00:18:34 ◼ ► 12-inch MacBook could make some sort of comeback in the future with an M1 chip. Thanks for answering,
00:18:39 ◼ ► and happy Summer of Fun! I'm Chance, and this is my question. I like this presentation. Chance has
00:18:48 ◼ ► an incredible voice. Like, so good, very good, and good work on Summer of Fun, Chance, but it wasn't.
00:18:56 ◼ ► Yes. It wasn't enough. Not your strongest. Summer of Fun! That's how you really gotta do it.
00:19:04 ◼ ► I left you hanging there. Oh, that's fine. Summer of Fun! Yeah, you can see Chance was embarrassed
00:19:15 ◼ ► I mean, this is what we all thought was going to be the first M1 Mac for a time. Well, I'd like to
00:19:22 ◼ ► tell you there's a chance. Hey-o! Oh, no, I don't have a little sound effect for, it's probably all
00:19:30 ◼ ► for the best. The 12-inch, yeah, I mean, I would love to see Apple make a proper light, thin MacBook
00:19:40 ◼ ► Air, basically, that is even smaller than the one that they've got. I'm not sure it's ever going to
00:19:48 ◼ ► happen, but I would really like to see them sort of differentiate the MacBook Air from the MacBook
00:19:54 ◼ ► Pro. The problem is that the rumors suggest that there is a new MacBook Air coming and that it's
00:19:59 ◼ ► not, it's going to be another 13-inch MacBook Air. The 13-inch MacBook Air isn't much bigger than the
00:20:08 ◼ ► old 11-inch MacBook Air in most dimensions, but every time, because I have a 12-inch MacBook Air
00:20:13 ◼ ► at home, every time I pick it up, I realize, oh, yeah, the MacBook Air could be so much thinner and
00:20:19 ◼ ► lighter. I hope they do it someday. I think there's room for it. My fear is that they look at the
00:20:24 ◼ ► popularity of the 11-inch Air compared to the 13-inch and just don't think it's a place they
00:20:30 ◼ ► need to go. And then the 12-inch MacBook also didn't apparently sell that well because they
00:20:34 ◼ ► didn't keep it around. But I would love to see it because thin, light, tiny laptops are awesome. So
00:20:42 ◼ ► I hope so. If I had to predict, I would predict not. But I think there's still a chance and I'm
00:20:50 ◼ ► going to hold that hope for that. I mean, they can always make, or not necessarily, but they can
00:20:56 ◼ ► always try to just make the 13-inch physically smaller still, you know, just keep trying to make
00:21:02 ◼ ► it smaller and smaller would help. I think I would also like it because I really love that form
00:21:08 ◼ ► factor of a laptop. I think the problem is just in the market, like the overall market, 12 inches is
00:21:15 ◼ ► strange for a laptop. Like there isn't a lot of competition there. And I think that that could
00:21:20 ◼ ► end up harming Apple because people probably want to have a decent-sized screen on their laptop.
00:21:37 ◼ ► is some of us look at it and think, "Oh wow, if I could get a 12-inch MacBook that's super
00:21:42 ◼ ► thin and light and all, that would be great." But I think a lot of people say, "Well, yeah,
00:21:45 ◼ ► but there's this 13-inch, right? Like there's the bigger one. I want the bigger one." Also interfaces,
00:21:50 ◼ ► I don't know, I feel like Apple is maybe not comfortable with an interface on a Mac that small,
00:21:57 ◼ ► that they want them all to be a little bit bigger than that. And all the bulk of the laptops that
00:22:08 ◼ ► it's already 16. But like, right, there's the rumor that the 13 Pro is going to be a 14.
00:22:14 ◼ ► So let's just say Apple's comfortable with 13 to 16-inch laptop displays and the 14-inch MacBook
00:22:22 ◼ ► Pro is enough to start differentiating it from the Air and they redesign the Air and they're
00:22:37 ◼ ► My question is mainly for Myke. I know that you used to do most of your work on an iPad
00:22:50 ◼ ► Thank you, Brent. So I think one of the things that was beneficial for me is I was still a heavy
00:22:56 ◼ ► Mac user when I was a predominantly iPad user. So it wasn't like, like if I switched to Windows,
00:23:02 ◼ ► it would have been a nightmare, right? It's like I tried to work out how to reuse a computer again.
00:23:07 ◼ ► So it wasn't really that harsh, but there are some things that were trickier. So I mean,
00:23:13 ◼ ► I've spoken about this before. I don't think I'm ever going to get used to just how messy
00:23:18 ◼ ► windowing can be on a Mac compared to the iPad. I mean, and you can say, and I agree that the iPad
00:23:24 ◼ ► can be too limiting at times, but I sure would love something in the middle. And I've never found
00:23:30 ◼ ► a automatic window resizing application that I've liked. Like it's just, there's just something about
00:23:36 ◼ ► it. This doesn't sit with me, but I can, I can live with it. Uh, the biggest thing was the lack of
00:23:42 ◼ ► shortcuts for the Mac. So I'm super excited about Monterey. I'm thinking like, I like to not install
00:23:50 ◼ ► the latest version of Mac OS like straight away, but I feel like I'm not going to be able to resist
00:23:56 ◼ ► shortcuts. And so we'll probably be putting it on all of my devices pretty quickly after it comes out.
00:24:16 ◼ ► which is obviously an important thing, but I feel like there was some stuff where I kind of had to
00:24:22 ◼ ► use the web browser more because the web browser isn't really good enough on iOS. So companies
00:24:27 ◼ ► make apps and then the apps have additional features or feel different. Like for example,
00:24:31 ◼ ► I kind of wished that I didn't have to use Google docs and sheets in the browser. I would actually
00:24:37 ◼ ► prefer an application for them so I could just open it and close it. Cause otherwise I have all
00:24:41 ◼ ► these like Google sheets in tabs open all the time when it would be much nicer for me if I could just
00:24:48 ◼ ► open an app and they're all there instead. Like just a little thing, but something that I would
00:24:53 ◼ ► prefer. But overall, I will say that my transition back to the Mac has been pretty seamless so far,
00:25:00 ◼ ► and I'm actually really happy. >> I have just something you just said made me think of a,
00:25:06 ◼ ► I know they've got a lot to do this summer, but a future direction for the Safari team,
00:25:10 ◼ ► which is why do we have to have single site browsers? Why is that not a feature of Safari?
00:25:24 ◼ ► a separate item in the doc or yeah, in the doc, right? You don't need to even call it an app.
00:25:30 ◼ ► But say, put it in the doc so that I could take Gmail or Google docs or whatever, and maybe I can
00:25:37 ◼ ► do it per domain, or maybe I can just do it per tab, but say like, put this in the doc. And why,
00:25:43 ◼ ► when I mean put it in the doc, I also mean that if I quit Safari, it either doesn't close that
00:25:52 ◼ ► thing that's in the doc or it says, would you like Safari to stay running? I see that you've
00:25:57 ◼ ► got other things in the doc, right? I don't know why single site browsing is not just, other than
00:26:05 ◼ ► that it's a little esoteric, but that's such a great feature. Why the web is so expansive,
00:26:11 ◼ ► people do so many different things with the web. I appreciate that they've done tab groups, but
00:26:15 ◼ ► the reason I don't keep things alive, I don't want to keep things alive in Safari, and I always
00:26:20 ◼ ► prefer an app or a single site browser is because it's so easy to close browser windows and lose the
00:26:26 ◼ ► thing that you were working on. And it's cluttery and it would allow you to manage it. So I'm just
00:26:30 ◼ ► going to throw that out there, a half-formed feature idea that I would really love it if
00:26:36 ◼ ► Safari would embrace the idea that maybe you need more doc items, not necessarily for every website,
00:26:42 ◼ ► but on a user choice basis to put things in a separate, it's not even a separate process. I mean,
00:26:50 ◼ ► all Safari windows are in a separate process anyway, but the idea that you would have like
00:26:54 ◼ ► another organizational instance that you could hide and show that would appear in the doc to bring it
00:26:59 ◼ ► forward and all of those things that we use the doc for, instead of all of these sort of, you know,
00:27:05 ◼ ► hacks to make a webkit or chromium fake app that loads a web page, because those are never really
00:27:14 ◼ ► that great. -Sachs made a great point in the Discord. They already do this on iOS for single
00:27:18 ◼ ► pages. -That's true. -So when they bring it to the Mac too and put multiple pages in it or something.
00:27:23 ◼ ► -That's true. That would be, it's yeah, you can save it to your homepage and then it acts like
00:27:27 ◼ ► it's an app. -What we're looking for here, Apple, is a sweet solution to this problem. Can you help us out?
00:27:32 ◼ ► -I just, I like that idea that instead of us trying to struggle with this, what if we said,
00:27:36 ◼ ► "Can I take my Google Docs and just make a kind of a fake app that you can put an icon on it or
00:27:41 ◼ ► whatever," but like it's really just Safari. It's just in a different space, in a different place,
00:27:47 ◼ ► and it's in my doc. -Let's get our next question. -All right. -Hey, this is Brad from Missouri.
00:27:53 ◼ ► What do you think the current state of HomeKit is in terms of priority at Apple? Do either of you
00:27:59 ◼ ► use HomeKit primarily or something else? -I'm all HomeKit. I use HomeBridge to bridge my stuff to
00:28:06 ◼ ► HomeKit. I use the HomeKit app. I have some HomeKit automations, not that many, but some.
00:28:11 ◼ ► I have it wired to various controllers as well, like switches and things. I had my TV set up for
00:28:18 ◼ ► a while when I still had my, I still do have my TiVo. It's just sort of deactivated and I'm playing
00:28:23 ◼ ► the shows off of it that I want to watch before we unplug it and it's officially discontinued.
00:28:27 ◼ ► That switch, I had a little smart switch that like sets the receiver and the TV to the right
00:28:33 ◼ ► thing so that the TiVo works. I'm all using, I'm using all that stuff. Now, in the long run,
00:28:49 ◼ ► but it's not, it's not here yet. -It's delayed as well, isn't it? -Yeah, in the meantime,
00:28:55 ◼ ► I am reluctant to buy any tech that does not work with HomeKit. I'm open to the idea if I can find a
00:29:02 ◼ ► HomeBridge plugin for it to give it a try, but I'm really trying to limit myself to HomeKit stuff
00:29:09 ◼ ► whenever possible. In fact, this came up because we were having some issues with my smart lock,
00:29:13 ◼ ► which turned out to be that it's bad at telling you that it, its batteries are dying and it starts
00:29:20 ◼ ► to behave weirdly when, like, it doesn't just shut off. It just sort of like stops doing some stuff
00:29:26 ◼ ► sometimes when the batteries get low. We play some batteries and it's good and that's good because
00:29:32 ◼ ► while I could buy another lock, two things. One is Wirecutter updated their pick for the best smart
00:29:38 ◼ ► lock and it's a really interesting lock that's got a fingerprint scanner on it, which would be super
00:29:43 ◼ ► great for easy access. You just walk up to the door and put your thumb on it and it opens. I love it,
00:29:48 ◼ ► but it doesn't do HomeKit and there's no HomeBridge plugin for it and I thought, do I really want to,
00:29:54 ◼ ► like, I could use it because I don't do a lot of HomeKit stuff related to the smart lock,
00:29:58 ◼ ► but I do have one automation related to it that I think is kind of nice where if it auto unlocks the
00:30:04 ◼ ► lock at night, the lights turn on inside so you can see where you're going. So I would really
00:30:10 ◼ ► rather wait. And then number two is Apple announced their whole HomeKey thing and the idea that you
00:30:17 ◼ ► should be able to do, like, UWB, right, ultra wideband U1 chip kind of smart locks, which are
00:30:26 ◼ ► going to be way better than the Bluetooth LE stuff that's out there now and I really want to wait for
00:30:30 ◼ ► that. But part of my hesitation about getting a new smart lock is actually that the one that is
00:30:36 ◼ ► the most recommended now doesn't do HomeKit. It's like, I don't think I want to go down that route
00:30:42 ◼ ► where I've got, you know, we'll open the Amazon app for this one. No, I don't want to do that.
00:30:55 ◼ ► - I like HomeKit. That's like my preferred, but in the past, I've tried to get devices that would
00:31:01 ◼ ► at least cover like Amazon Echo as well, just in case. And there are actually quite a lot of
00:31:07 ◼ ► products in certain categories that you can use with multiple. Ultimately, I find a lot of the
00:31:12 ◼ ► home automation stuff to just be too tricky right now. So I'm like crossing my fingers and hoping
00:31:17 ◼ ► that matter ends up solving all of my problems. Like Homebridge, for example, like I set up
00:31:22 ◼ ► Homebridge here at the studio and then all of a sudden one day just stopped working because for
00:31:25 ◼ ► some reason the clock went out of sync on the little box that I used and it was just impossible
00:31:30 ◼ ► to ever fix. And so I decided, well, what happened to me was exactly what I thought was going to
00:31:36 ◼ ► happen, which was something was going to happen with my Homebridge set up one day and it was going
00:31:39 ◼ ► to make me never want to use it again. And that thing exactly happened, which is why I would never
00:31:44 ◼ ► had never planned to bring that to my home because I'm not going to inflict that on my family.
00:31:49 ◼ ► - I only use Homebridge because I bought, like, I don't buy, like I said, I don't buy stuff and
00:31:55 ◼ ► think, oh, well, I'll just attach this to Homebridge. Like if it matters. - Hey, was that a
00:32:00 ◼ ► pun? - It matter, yes, that was not a pun, but sure it does. It matters to me that something is
00:32:07 ◼ ► HomeKit enabled unless I'm not planning on really using it using a smart home system, right? Which
00:32:14 ◼ ► sometimes happens. But what I've tried to refrain from doing is think of Homebridge as a long-term
00:32:19 ◼ ► solution that I'm going to bake in with my buying decisions, right? Like I don't want to have to
00:32:24 ◼ ► keep using Homebridge forever. It's a back, like I have an old Nest thermostat, right? It's like,
00:32:29 ◼ ► it's on Homebridge now, which means I can see it in the home app. That's great, but I wouldn't buy
00:32:35 ◼ ► a new thermostat that didn't support HomeKit. That's not going to happen. So it needs to be,
00:32:40 ◼ ► now maybe I will be able to buy like another Nest thermostat sometime that supports Matter. And so
00:32:47 ◼ ► it works with HomeKit and everything is good. But I totally, I'm with you. I mean, Homebridge is
00:32:53 ◼ ► fine, but I'd really rather not have to rely on some software running on a computer somewhere
00:32:59 ◼ ► in order to stitch my whole smart home together. Before we move on, a bit of breaking news. I don't
00:33:04 ◼ ► think we have time to cover this today, but I'll just put it in here for the sake of it.
00:33:10 ◼ ► and they're going to be, I think, offering a separate application and having this content
00:33:15 ◼ ► available. But yeah, they're going to take down Primephonic later this year. They're going to
00:33:21 ◼ ► integrate a lot of the classical content into Apple Music Now, and they are apparently going
00:33:24 ◼ ► to release an Apple Music classical app. And we used to, Kirk McElhern, who still writes about
00:33:30 ◼ ► this, and I can't wait to see what he says about this story, because he's like the classical
00:33:34 ◼ ► streaming music beat guy for Macworld for years. He was our go-to to write all the ways that Apple
00:33:40 ◼ ► Music and iTunes never ever really understood how classical music fans listen to music.
00:33:49 ◼ ► you know, for all of Apple's talk about loving all kinds of music, Apple's never really been very
00:33:54 ◼ ► good at classical. And this purchase basically gets them classical music knowledge and technology,
00:33:59 ◼ ► lets them integrate it to Apple Music. And I think it's telling that they're going to do a classical
00:34:03 ◼ ► music app because Apple's kind of mental model of how music works is not a good fit for classical.
00:34:10 ◼ ► So fans of classical music, and they are out there, and I know some of them, and I know how
00:34:17 ◼ ► frustrated they've been by the digital music revolution because it has not been as good for
00:34:21 ◼ ► them as it has been for those of us who like pop music. Classics like the Eagles, right? The Eagles
00:34:26 ◼ ► diastrates. Classical music is like Jimi Hendrix, yeah. That's basically a Star Trek joke. You made
00:34:33 ◼ ► a Star Trek joke there. I think that that's how they refer to popular music in the future,
00:34:55 ◼ ► Immediately, photos jumped to my mind. And you are much more of a photos person than me.
00:35:04 ◼ ► Oh boy, yeah. But there was just, when Eric said service, because I think all the other services
00:35:10 ◼ ► kind of, I think mostly okay for what I want to use them for, but it's just there are some
00:35:16 ◼ ► features for photos, like two major features for photos, that other services, competing services,
00:35:22 ◼ ► do a better job with, and it's surprising to me that Apple don't yet offer this functionality,
00:35:29 ◼ ► which is like proper family sharing, actual real family sharing. Like we can have a library,
00:35:42 ◼ ► And they're all really weird. Like all of the sharing stuff that's available right now is
00:35:47 ◼ ► really strange, and I would very much like to have a family, like a full family sharing feature,
00:35:54 ◼ ► or even just like for me, like to just quickly have like a way to opt some photos into being
00:36:02 ◼ ► shared amongst the family, you know, which is not really a thing that happens now. There has to be
00:36:07 ◼ ► very much this like, and then they put, man, I installed the iOS beta on my phone now, and that,
00:36:15 ◼ ► like the for you feature with adding images directly to my photo library is I think genuinely
00:36:21 ◼ ► one of the worst features Apple has added to iOS in a very long time. I don't want messages,
00:36:29 ◼ ► like I don't want images that are sent to me in iMessage to show up in my photo library.
00:36:45 ◼ ► You don't like that they show up at the library automatically. You want to just have that be,
00:36:58 ◼ ► people text you things they don't. That's not true. Like, I mean, I know that's what they said,
00:37:15 ◼ ► Yeah. Like, you know, like, uh, like another one, like, you know, went to the dentist and she sent
00:37:22 ◼ ► me a picture of a smile afterwards. She's at the dentist. I'm at the studio now. Like maybe it's
00:37:27 ◼ ► because it's like, it knows we're in a family together or whatever, but this isn't what I want.
00:37:40 ◼ ► It's so good. I love that. But then all these random images start showing up in my library.
00:37:47 ◼ ► And I mentioned this before, I want better control over memory features. Apple have added some more
00:37:52 ◼ ► things like don't show me this person. I don't know why I have to be reactive, why I can't be
00:37:58 ◼ ► proactive. Like why can I not proactively say, like go in and say, don't ever show me this person
00:38:27 ◼ ► If you can do it for a person, I don't know how it is. No, it's just like feature less.
00:38:36 ◼ ► it pops up and says, would you like to never feature this person? It's like, okay, well,
00:38:44 ◼ ► you can go into the faces area. You can select the little three dots, do feature less, and then
00:38:50 ◼ ► choose to never, but like, that's not everything. Like I still want time periods, all kinds of stuff.
00:39:08 ◼ ► but like Siri needs to be better. Um, that's, that's just like, I think that's the easiest
00:39:13 ◼ ► one is Siri needs to be better. And I would say more broadly, I don't know. Some of their
00:39:20 ◼ ► it's suggesting me something, an app or a, or, or, but like I don't use the Siri watch face and
00:39:25 ◼ ► that's not the voice Siri. That's like Apple's device intelligence. And it just does not impress
00:39:29 ◼ ► me. Um, I think all that stuff needs to be better, but, um, I think, I think you make a good point
00:39:34 ◼ ► about photos. Photos has gotten a lot better. I think the last few years in terms of some of
00:39:38 ◼ ► this stuff, but it's got a long way to go. Hi, Jason and Myke, I'm Manoj from Vancouver,
00:39:42 ◼ ► Canada, a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume both of you are given a choice to replace an
00:39:48 ◼ ► Apple-provided official app with an indie app. What would it be? We're big in Vancouver.
00:39:55 ◼ ► I love it. So we can replace any app that Apple ships with one of our own. Where are you leaning?
00:40:04 ◼ ► I don't know. This is hard for me to pick one. I could have, I think I could have a few, honestly,
00:40:11 ◼ ► Fantastic Al for calendar. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, Pocket Cast, Overcast, Castro for podcast.
00:40:26 ◼ ► calculator over a Peacock. Sure. James was just in an article about actually this kind of thing
00:40:30 ◼ ► on the verge. I'll put that link in the show notes in case people want to read it. Oh, you mean a
00:40:35 ◼ ► friend of the show, James Thompson, author of Peacock. Uh, yeah, I think, I think Fantastic Al would be my
00:40:41 ◼ ► number one choice and number two would probably be Overcast. Um, or literally any other podcast app
00:40:49 ◼ ► other than Apple podcast. Apple podcast is fine. The other ones I think are better. Sometimes I think
00:40:54 ◼ ► that Castro is the most Apple-like podcast app in the sense that it's opinionated and opinionated in
00:41:03 ◼ ► a way that I feel like Apple would be opinionated about, like, it looks really good and there, it has
00:41:07 ◼ ► a way of working and you're going to use it that way. And like, and I don't mean that negatively. I
00:41:12 ◼ ► mean, that's the kind of stuff that Apple does is be like, why is it like this? Because we think this
00:41:18 ◼ ► is the best way. Like, all right. But as a third party app, it's a little bit different. But yeah,
00:41:22 ◼ ► Fantastic Al would be, uh, the number one example. Um, Dan Morin and I were talking about this a
00:41:26 ◼ ► couple of weeks ago, um, about calendar stuff and how bad, like I I'm actually using MimeStream,
00:41:34 ◼ ► the email program, which also I would say is, is, uh, which is by somebody who used to work on
00:41:40 ◼ ► Apple mail and it just works with Gmail now, but like, it's, it's like Apple mail, but also good.
00:41:47 ◼ ► Um, and on the Mac, like you look at calendar and you look at mail and you look at some of these
00:41:53 ◼ ► apps that have been around forever. And I don't understand, like Apple must just think that
00:41:59 ◼ ► they're good enough as it is. But I find that funny given how aggressive Apple is about updating,
00:42:05 ◼ ► like notes and reminders, like the notes and reminders. People are possessed with getting
00:42:11 ◼ ► better. And I, I, um, I actually wrote a piece about this last week on six colors about how,
00:42:18 ◼ ► like they added in smart collections, which, which they, you know, Apple's always sort of
00:42:24 ◼ ► basically implied that you don't need smart albums and photos and you don't need to be able to edit
00:42:29 ◼ ► smart playlists and music on, on iPads and iPhones because it's too complicated. And then they're
00:42:34 ◼ ► like, Nope, we're in iOS 15, we're, we're putting in smart lists for reminders and like, we're going
00:42:39 ◼ ► to show you this huge, like, this is how you do this kind of thing, right? When you start.
00:42:44 ◼ ► And we're just going to embrace it. In fact, I immediately had the thought, which is next year
00:42:48 ◼ ► in iOS 16, they're going to do their take on, um, on Rome and notion and obsidian and stuff like
00:42:54 ◼ ► that. I think iOS 16, the notes, notes is going to be totally about like linking between notes
00:42:59 ◼ ► and stuff. And they'll do it again in an Apple way where it'll be like super sanded down smooth and,
00:43:04 ◼ ► and, and, and all of that. But I think there's, there's still going to do that. And I won't be
00:43:09 ◼ ► surprised when that happens at all because the notes and reminders team are really pushing things
00:43:12 ◼ ► forward. Whereas in Safari, you know, we can complain about Safari, but like, they're trying
00:43:25 ◼ ► frustrating things in calendar that fantastic Cal has, has picked up and is doing. And then you go
00:43:32 ◼ ► over to a calendar and you're like, Oh, right. It doesn't do any of these things. And I mean,
00:43:36 ◼ ► I know fantastic Cal has esoteric features too. That's how you survive as a third party app, but
00:43:41 ◼ ► some of calendars or fantastic Cal's features really should be table stakes. And yet the
00:43:46 ◼ ► calendar app is just like, yeah, good enough. And I, that, that infuriates me is the system apps
00:43:53 ◼ ► that Apple seems to have decided are good enough and that they don't ever want to revisit again.
00:43:57 ◼ ► Cause mail mail is my favorite example and I don't have a replacement for it. There are a bunch of
00:44:02 ◼ ► apps that are trying this, but the fact that Apple mail has never even once tried to understand that,
00:44:09 ◼ ► you know, maybe you want to auto filter things on iOS, or you want to have it do a kind of a
00:44:16 ◼ ► learning based filter or defer messages for awhile, or, you know, like you could, or have a priority
00:44:22 ◼ ► inbox or like there are all these things they could try that a bunch of other people have tried
00:44:26 ◼ ► in the last 15 years. And instead Apple mail is like, it's, it's, it's not that different from
00:44:34 ◼ ► the next mail app that was its origin, right? Like, and it was Steve Jobs' mail app. And that's
00:44:39 ◼ ► why mail exists is that Steve Jobs wanted them to build the next mail app on Mac OS 10. And so they
00:44:45 ◼ ► did. And it is a direct line from that more or less. And I don't know, it's just, it's so
00:44:50 ◼ ► disappointing when Apple abandons these system apps and sort of just says, eh, good enough.
00:44:53 ◼ ► - This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Amazon Music. Since you're listening to this show,
00:44:59 ◼ ► I think I can probably assume that you like listening to podcasts and you will find tons
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00:45:35 ◼ ► you can listen to any song anywhere offline with unlimited skips. What, look, what I love about
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00:45:50 ◼ ► D&D, there is a podcast to listen to. I also love listening to podcasts all the time, wherever I am.
00:45:55 ◼ ► So having an app in my pocket opens the world to me for who I want to listen to. And all my
00:45:59 ◼ ► favorites are available right there in Amazon Music. I was poking around a couple of days ago,
00:46:03 ◼ ► listening to some stuff. Everything's there. I could search for it super easy, find the podcast,
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00:46:19 ◼ ► required. Just go to amazon.com/upgradefm. That's amazon.com/upgradefm to try Amazon Music Unlimited
00:46:27 ◼ ► free for 30 days. One last time, amazon.com/upgradefm. It renews automatically, but you
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00:46:39 ◼ ► of Relay FM. Let's get our next question. All right, here it is. Hey, this is Joel calling in from
00:46:44 ◼ ► Peters Canyon Regional Park in Tustin, California for my out loud upgrade, out grade question.
00:46:51 ◼ ► If I am looking to get a new Mac this fall, am I better off with a decked out MacBook Pro that I
00:46:59 ◼ ► want to use at my desk and away from it or a Mac Mini and a MacBook Air for the same price? Thanks.
00:47:05 ◼ ► Bravo for the outgrade question. It didn't matter what question Joel had. This one was going in the
00:47:12 ◼ ► episode. If you don't remember, in August of 2020, Jason and I created a fake soundscape in an
00:47:20 ◼ ► episode called Outgrade where we pretended to be outside. It sounds like Joel was actually outside,
00:47:26 ◼ ► which was better than what we did. All right, so which Mac? So, which would you have if you were
00:47:45 ◼ ► okay, two things. One is, the premise here is you buy a more expensive, more capable Mac,
00:47:52 ◼ ► or for that price, you could buy two cheap Macs. I'm not sure, like, yeah, I guess there's a way
00:47:59 ◼ ► to do that. If you bought it like super pricey MacBook Pro when it comes out versus what, you
00:48:04 ◼ ► know, a 24-inch iMac and a, or a Mac Mini and a MacBook Air, I think you're going to be happier
00:48:11 ◼ ► with a more powerful Mac. And if it's a laptop, you can get an external display and you can dock it,
00:48:17 ◼ ► which is jankier than the alternative. But you can get a dock, you know, a Thunderbolt dock or
00:48:27 ◼ ► something like that. So you have one plug to plug it in and that works pretty well. And I've done
00:48:32 ◼ ► that for a long time. And the most important thing is even in this era where we have iCloud and
00:48:36 ◼ ► Dropbox and things like that, I have, so, you know, Myke, I've went several years where I
00:48:42 ◼ ► basically never used my MacBook Air, my old MacBook Air, other than occasionally for like a big deal
00:48:48 ◼ ► podcast interview in New York City, like the ones that we did, some stuff like that, where I did it.
00:48:52 ◼ ► Mostly it just sat here at home and I didn't use it. And recently I've been using my MacBook Air,
00:48:58 ◼ ► my new M1 MacBook Air more. And what it's reminded me is I go to my mom's house in Arizona for a week
00:49:06 ◼ ► and I'm opening up my MacBook Air ready to do my job. And I do a thing that I always do on my iMac
00:49:13 ◼ ► at home and nothing happens because that keyboard shortcut isn't set up or that macro didn't sync,
00:49:21 ◼ ► or I didn't put in the right SSH key or like whatever it is. And it's always happening because
00:49:29 ◼ ► those two computers are not in sync. Even every time I open it up, there's something where it's
00:49:35 ◼ ► like, oh yeah, this doesn't work on this computer. So those are my reasons for saying you probably
00:49:41 ◼ ► should just get one really, really good computer instead of two okay computers. And the benefit's
00:49:48 ◼ ► going to be that you don't have to keep it in sync. I agree with you very much on that point.
00:49:53 ◼ ► Like I run two Macs right now with one Mac at home that never gets used unless I'm in an emergency
00:50:00 ◼ ► just because I couldn't move it because who knows the pandemic if I have to record at home.
00:50:03 ◼ ► And these computers just are never in a similar state to each other. In a little bit, I'm going
00:50:11 ◼ ► to actually come back to this idea of using a laptop and plugging it in because that's also not
00:50:18 ◼ ► a perfect experience. I'll talk about that. And we've got a question later on, which I want to
00:50:21 ◼ ► touch on that a little bit more. But I think I would suggest that unless you have some needs to
00:50:28 ◼ ► dictate a difference in hardware, you know, like that maybe you need an incredibly powerful machine,
00:50:34 ◼ ► but you want a lightweight laptop, you know, then that's fine. But other than that, I would
00:50:39 ◼ ► recommend like you just get one powerful computer, whether it's a laptop that you take with you,
00:50:44 ◼ ► or it's a desktop and you just only ever work on the desktop. Hi, Myke and Jason. I'm Nate Rudd,
00:50:49 ◼ ► podcaster at myhiltodyon.com and an IT director at an international school in Japan. I was
00:50:56 ◼ ► disappointed yet convinced as my school passed up one to one iPads for Chromebooks again this year
00:51:01 ◼ ► because of the monitoring and repairability. Do you think Apple will ever put in the effort in
00:51:06 ◼ ► either hardware or software to make an education focused initiative that could better rival Google
00:51:11 ◼ ► and Chromebooks? So shout out to Nate for plugging his stuff in his question. It's always good.
00:51:18 ◼ ► Nate was smart because I'll say most plugs, there were many plugs, got edited out. I couldn't cut
00:51:29 ◼ ► like he wouldn't have, it would have sounded weird when I tried to get it out. That's a good work.
00:51:33 ◼ ► The conjunctions of where he, of the site that he wanted to promote and his status as an educator,
00:51:40 ◼ ► which was key to the question, were phrased in a way where they flowed from each other. So you
00:51:46 ◼ ► beat us, Nate. You got it through. So well, well played. We'll get you next time. Yeah,
00:51:52 ◼ ► you'll get yours, Nate. So the question is about Apple and education, but I feel like we could even
00:51:59 ◼ ► pull back and just say, this is a question about Apple in various markets, which is I've learned
00:52:05 ◼ ► over God, way too many years of following Apple that Apple, what makes Apple great in a sense
00:52:15 ◼ ► is its focus on its core markets. And, you know, modern Apple, I would say this was a little less
00:52:28 ◼ ► true in the nineties when the Apple did have less focus. And in the two thousands, when they were
00:52:32 ◼ ► coming back, they started to lose this. But the modern Apple of the last 15 years, especially
00:52:38 ◼ ► the focus is on the end user and delighting the end user and making a product that regular people
00:52:46 ◼ ► who buy a computer will like, or a phone or a tablet, right? Like they, that's what they
00:52:52 ◼ ► care about. And they build their products. It's in their DNA. They build their products that way.
00:52:56 ◼ ► That's what it's for. And everything else is, I don't want to say an accident, but it's beside
00:53:05 ◼ ► the point. So like I did back in June, I did that, the report card about Apple and enterprise.
00:53:13 ◼ ► Oh yeah. Yep. Yep. And one of the things, you know, that comes up in something like that is,
00:53:18 ◼ ► well, Apple doesn't really do this and they have this thing, but it's not. And like Apple's got
00:53:29 ◼ ► the computers that it's selling the phones that it's selling into the enterprise market
00:53:45 ◼ ► Nate, about Apple and education, I would say Apple might make a move there versus Chromebooks or they
00:53:55 ◼ ► might not, but it'll only happen because of where Apple wants to take the iPad that, you know,
00:54:03 ◼ ► that's it like for everybody. And so if Apple's vision for the future of the iPad happens to take
00:54:11 ◼ ► it in a place where it's going to do well in education, then it will do that, but it's not
00:54:19 ◼ ► going to steer the iPad in a particular direction for the education market. It's just never going to
00:54:26 ◼ ► do that because it's not going to steer its products. I think anywhere for anything other
00:54:32 ◼ ► than the idealized customer, which is a single person who walks into an Apple store and is
00:54:38 ◼ ► delighted by a piece of hardware, that's their core belief. That's what they build the products
00:54:44 ◼ ► for. And everything else just comes, you know, even though Tim Cook and Luca Maestri will go get on
00:54:50 ◼ ► these analyst calls every quarter and say, like, Luca does it. He's like, let me give you some
00:54:54 ◼ ► examples of fortune 500 companies that have adopted our hardware, right? He's reading from
00:55:00 ◼ ► his thing and it'll be like, this bank got iPads for all of its tellers. And this airline is using
00:55:05 ◼ ► iPads for their flight manuals and they boast about it. And I get it, but in the end, that's
00:55:12 ◼ ► not luck, but it's adding things on the edges, building around the core, which is this idealized
00:55:22 ◼ ► customer that they want to delight with their hardware. So that's my long-winded version of
00:55:27 ◼ ► saying, will Apple make more of a go of it in education? Maybe if its vision of the future
00:55:36 ◼ ► aligns with what education wants. And I think the reason that Chromebooks are doing so well in
00:55:45 ◼ ► hadn't thought of it like that, and I do like it. Apple are not going to ever make an education
00:55:51 ◼ ► focused iPad, neither are they going to make changes to the iPad line that will make it more
00:55:57 ◼ ► appealing to the education market. Because then that changes the product for everyone and they're
00:56:02 ◼ ► not going to do that. - Neither are they going to make a low-cost MacBook that would be more
00:56:09 ◼ ► appealing to the education market, right? They're just not. - The most that they will do is what
00:56:12 ◼ ► they currently do, which is keep products around for education customers that other customers can't
00:56:17 ◼ ► buy, which are like older versions, but that's probably not also what you want. Because like
00:56:21 ◼ ► what Nate was saying, like repairability and stuff like that, like, it's just not Apple's bag.
00:56:26 ◼ ► - The last product that Apple, I can remember that Apple made for a targeted market was the EMAC,
00:56:33 ◼ ► which was for those who don't remember, the iMac made the transition from the G3 iMacs that were
00:56:41 ◼ ► based on a CRT to the G4 iMacs that were an LCD. And so they were a lot more, a floating display
00:56:48 ◼ ► on the little chrome arm. And then ultimately they went to the iMac that we know of today.
00:56:52 ◼ ► They were a lot more expensive and education very much is like selling that MacBook Air
00:56:57 ◼ ► with the education price for a while after it had even stopped being sold to other people.
00:57:01 ◼ ► The iMac G3 was very popular in schools and the new iMacs were not rugged, right? They had the
00:57:16 ◼ ► handle classroom environments. And they were more expensive than the education customers wanted to
00:57:22 ◼ ► pay. And so what they created the EMAC, the EMAC was kind of just a G4 version of the G3 iMac.
00:57:29 ◼ ► It did have a new enclosure. That was a case where they built a product just for education,
00:57:33 ◼ ► because I think somebody, one of their education people came to Apple when they heard about the G4
00:57:37 ◼ ► and they're like, "No, no, no, no, no. Do you realize how much money we make selling iMacs
00:57:41 ◼ ► to schools? You got to keep making the iMac for schools." And they're like, "All right, well,
00:57:52 ◼ ► And in general, they don't want to do that because they want to make products for everyone.
00:57:56 ◼ ► And their thought, that was 2005, their thought is if we make a great product for that idealized
00:58:03 ◼ ► customer who's walking into an Apple store, it is a great product for everyone. That's not always
00:58:08 ◼ ► true, but I think it serves them more often than it doesn't serve them. So you take the good and
00:58:16 ◼ ► you take the bad with Apple's philosophies, but that's definitely Apple's philosophy there.
00:58:31 ◼ ► - Hey, Myke and Jason, this is Taylor from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm finishing up my master's
00:58:35 ◼ ► thesis, which cites both of you extensively. And I was wondering if you would be interested in
00:58:45 ◼ ► the trashcan Mac Pro, the iMac Pro, and the new Mac Pro to try and figure out how Apple's definition
00:58:51 ◼ ► of pro has changed over the last five years and how much you as podcasters and we as fans of the
00:59:17 ◼ ► last. I do believe that the Mac enthusiast market forced a change at Apple, right? Like,
00:59:26 ◼ ► I don't think that I'm alone in believing this, but the whole Mac roundtable, let's recommit to
00:59:33 ◼ ► Macs and professional... That happened because of the general upset from a certain part of the
00:59:40 ◼ ► market. Clearly, Apple made the decision that they made because it was a small part of their market.
00:59:47 ◼ ► The problem was it is an influential and loud part of their market. And there are benefits to it that
00:59:52 ◼ ► like these people are your evangelists, they're the people that make purchasing decisions in
00:59:56 ◼ ► enterprise, make them happy. And it actually is funny, I've got back to education. So it's an
01:00:02 ◼ ► often used argument for the education market, which I do agree with that by getting these
01:00:08 ◼ ► products in people's hands when they're young, they will buy them in the future. But the thing
01:00:13 ◼ ► Apple doesn't need now is to show young people that you should have an iPhone or an iPad, because
01:00:18 ◼ ► that's what they care about most because all young people want that anyway, so they don't really need
01:00:22 ◼ ► to evangelize it there. But I do think that the general consensus in this community that we're a
01:00:30 ◼ ► part of pushed Apple towards making what I think and we all think is the right decision into
01:00:42 ◼ ► Pro has always been a marketing term for Apple. And so I think it's always on one level, it's always
01:00:54 ◼ ► just meant the best, the high quality, the thing that the pros care about. And therefore, that
01:01:05 ◼ ► means that it is a little more expensive or maybe a lot more expensive, but it's like our best work
01:01:11 ◼ ► because pros are demanding. We had an ad campaign. I don't know if it's still going on, but it was an
01:01:19 ◼ ► ad campaign for GMC trucks in the US. And the slogan was, "We are professional grade." Now,
01:01:31 ◼ ► I don't love that campaign. I didn't love that slogan, but I think it's instructive because what
01:01:37 ◼ ► they're trying to do is not sell, like they're going to sell trucks to people who need big trucks,
01:01:47 ◼ ► It's people that aspire to need big trucks, which is similarly to these products. It's like that's
01:01:53 ◼ ► where prosuma comes in, right? Yeah, or they like the idea that this is going to get them the best
01:02:00 ◼ ► truck because the pros have to rely on this truck and they're not going to put up with second rate
01:02:05 ◼ ► stuff. They're going to have the highest grade, like the use of grade, professional grade.
01:02:10 ◼ ► This is what the pros use and that's why I like it. So Apple has played that game for a very long
01:02:17 ◼ ► time and they play it more now. In the last five years, I would actually say to Taylor's point,
01:02:21 ◼ ► look at the iPhone, right? We now have an iPhone Pro, right? We didn't used to have Pro iPhones.
01:02:28 ◼ ► We have iPhone Pro now. What does that mean? What is a Pro smartphone? And they talk about
01:02:32 ◼ ► the camera rod and they got better cameras and all that, but the point of it ultimately is just,
01:02:36 ◼ ► this is the best of these. MacBook Pro is the better of the Mac laptops. The Mac Pro is the
01:02:42 ◼ ► highest end desktop. iPhone Pro, iPad Pro, right? It just is the best one. It's on the cutting edge.
01:02:50 ◼ ► It's got the best stuff. It is the most expensive, but you got to pay for quality. That's what it
01:03:03 ◼ ► you're paying for better stuff. Now, Apple recognizes that like iOS developers are their
01:03:10 ◼ ► maybe top market for Mac Pro purchases, you know, Pro Mac products because you've got to use a Mac
01:03:18 ◼ ► to develop an iOS app. I think they know about those high-end applications for Mac hardware
01:03:25 ◼ ► that drive Mac Pro sales. I think they're more aware. I think they lost the plot a little bit.
01:03:32 ◼ ► And to your point, I think that's what the Mac round table was about was like they used to be
01:03:37 ◼ ► sort of viewing the Mac as just kind of this legacy platform that they were going to let kind
01:03:40 ◼ ► of ride off into the sunset and not worry about it too much, sort of like Apple mail, like writ large.
01:03:45 ◼ ► But that they changed their mind and they're like, no, no, no, we're going to make an effort here to
01:03:50 ◼ ► sort of integrate the Mac with our other platforms. And we've seen that over the last few years.
01:03:54 ◼ ► And some of that is about worrying about the pros who use their hardware. But I feel like,
01:04:01 ◼ ► you know, in the end, going back to the previous question, what they're really mostly thinking
01:04:25 ◼ ► movie filmmakers and photographers like that seems to be that one of their main things talk about
01:04:31 ◼ ► pro is always like here it is in a music studio. It's the glamour. It's the glamour, right? It's
01:04:35 ◼ ► like we use we made a short film with an iPhone pro and what you could edit it and it's 4k HDR.
01:04:40 ◼ ► And most people aren't going to need that. But isn't it amazing that this phone is so powerful
01:04:43 ◼ ► that you can do it so you can want it too. But like, yes, there's that's the glamour aspect of
01:04:48 ◼ ► it, which is you show off and Apple's done that for 30 years to you show off the product of things
01:04:53 ◼ ► made on the Mac and say this is again the message is not directed at VFX artists or filmmakers or
01:05:02 ◼ ► iOS developers. It's at the general public. But the point is these people use our tools to make
01:05:09 ◼ ► these amazing things. That's how powerful they are. Don't you want the same tools that the pros use?
01:05:14 ◼ ► And so they're very happy to use those high profile examples and in some cases commission
01:05:18 ◼ ► people to do high profile projects so that they can show them off and say look they made
01:05:23 ◼ ► this film we you know, we paid this director to make this short film on an iPhone 12 pro.
01:05:29 ◼ ► I think they did so. Yeah, I think so. What is pro ultimately number one? It's just a tag to create
01:05:59 ◼ ► helps and I hope I won't be removed from the thesis now. Hi, I'm Marlies from Groningen,
01:06:06 ◼ ► hometown of AFC Richmond's legendary young mass. If you had to carry a second phone for work,
01:06:11 ◼ ► what would you pick? Marlies! So mine's easy because it's the second phone that I currently own
01:06:21 ◼ ► which is the Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 3. Ah, I just got it last week. Those folding phones are looking
01:06:28 ◼ ► pretty good now right? Like I was pretty surprised when Jason sent me this message in Slack the other
01:06:33 ◼ ► day to that exact effect and I was surprised I mean yes they are they're getting closer and closer
01:06:39 ◼ ► towards being something you can actually use as opposed to something you need to baby. I forget
01:06:47 ◼ ► where I said this and I'm not sure if it was upgrade last week or not but I feel like we've
01:06:51 ◼ ► reached that milestone now where the Apple folding phone is probably coming in the next year or two.
01:06:55 ◼ ► I think so. Because the Samsung phones have gotten to the point where they're they're exiting the
01:06:59 ◼ ► this is sort of a joke and experimental and entering the this is actually good phase and
01:07:04 ◼ ► that's generally when Apple just kind of like give them a year or two and then they pop in and say
01:07:08 ◼ ► yeah we've been working on this for the last five years too but we didn't sell them until now
01:07:11 ◼ ► and then and they'll roll their thing out that that would be my guess is that we're going to
01:07:15 ◼ ► see a folding iPhone in the next couple of years. So you'd go with the the Z Flip? Yeah I really
01:07:21 ◼ ► like it it's my favorite Android phone that I've ever used and it's also different like it's
01:07:26 ◼ ► different enough without being too wild like the the Z Fold which is a larger one which becomes
01:07:32 ◼ ► like mini tablet is really cool but it's not a phone like it's it's like a whole different thing
01:07:39 ◼ ► and I don't really know where I would use that so much but the Z Flip is much more of a yeah I can
01:07:46 ◼ ► use this it's a phone it does some stuff that's really cool and it does stuff that the iPhone just
01:07:50 ◼ ► can't do which I also kind of like yeah but that that's what I would pick. I have an iPhone 12 mini
01:08:09 ◼ ► right I got I got the little phone it doesn't have all the cameras it doesn't have all the space it
01:08:14 ◼ ► works for me most of the time if I had a second phone to carry around having one with a big screen
01:08:19 ◼ ► or bigger screen and the extra camera would be nice. I might consider an Android phone I do have
01:08:29 ◼ ► I you know I always try to keep an Android phone around for reference and then of course
01:08:34 ◼ ► unfortunately very quickly they don't run the latest version of Android and you have to buy
01:08:37 ◼ ► a new phone because that's an Android thing. I will also admit to being curious about the two
01:08:44 ◼ ► new Samsung things because they both look interesting in different ways. I think I would
01:08:49 ◼ ► probably be more like Federico and be interested in the Fold that sort of is basically a tall phone
01:08:55 ◼ ► that turns into a small tablet because I'm more tablet-y than phone-y but in the end I mean if I
01:09:05 ◼ ► have to have a second phone it would probably be an Android phone just because I do like to keep one
01:09:10 ◼ ► around but if I'm living the iPhone life I would just I would just get a Pro phone because I don't
01:09:15 ◼ ► have a Pro phone. Pro is important to me it's professional grade. Very important. You're a
01:09:19 ◼ ► professional. Who's our next caller? Hi Jason and mate this is Ian from Glasgow and my question is
01:09:25 ◼ ► do you think Apple will ever allow end users to boot Mac OS on an iPad or will they persist with
01:09:33 ◼ ► most people buying the same hardware twice? Oh that's a Scottish accent. Oh that's a real one
01:09:39 ◼ ► that's not that James Thompson fake Scottish accent. Take that friend of the show James
01:09:48 ◼ ► Mac OS on an iPad is the dream alive? I can't see it. They could do it right like they could
01:10:01 ◼ ► and they didn't do it so I just don't think they I you know why buy one device when you can buy two
01:10:08 ◼ ► devices from Apple I feel like is their is their attitude there. I would love you know what I would
01:10:14 ◼ ► love is I'd love to get to the point where they allow you to like virtualize Mac OS inside the
01:10:18 ◼ ► iPad which they can do the M1 you know is is probably capable of that like where regular
01:10:25 ◼ ► people you're not going to boot into Mac OS and regular people are never going to do this but if
01:10:30 ◼ ► you're a power user or a developer or something like that they will provide like an app maybe you
01:10:37 ◼ ► have to be a registered Apple developer that is basically virtualization of Mac OS Monterey let's
01:10:44 ◼ ► say inside an iPad so that you could on a high end you know iPad Pro with lots of memory you could
01:10:50 ◼ ► have a little sort of like Mac OS app that was running on your iPad that might happen someday
01:10:56 ◼ ► I don't think booting into Mac OS is a thing that's ever going to happen. Have you heard of
01:11:01 ◼ ► Microsoft 365? Yeah. This is a pretty new thing that Microsoft's doing where you can access a
01:11:09 ◼ ► version of Windows from anywhere you can get to a web browser in a web browser app on iPad. I would
01:11:17 ◼ ► like something like that I mean honestly what I want is some kind of native thing it's only getting
01:11:22 ◼ ► worse now that the chips are the same like it makes it more like I would pay Apple whatever
01:11:27 ◼ ► they would charge me to have one laptop that could I could dual boot into like I desperately want that
01:11:34 ◼ ► but I don't think they're ever going to do it now I think the time has come and gone for that like I
01:11:41 ◼ ► don't know what it is that would have to happen for them to create it I still think one day like
01:11:45 ◼ ► I still believe this one day there will be a unified operating system and and that's when we'll
01:11:50 ◼ ► get it but I don't think that's anytime soon but I still think it. I mean my dream my dream laptop
01:11:56 ◼ ► is that you know you detach the screen from the MacBook and it becomes an iPad and then you
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01:13:29 ◼ ► Winds for their support of this show and Relay FM. Who's up next? Hi this is Ben from Boston and
01:13:36 ◼ ► continuing with the alliteration I want to talk about batteries specifically how you both think
01:13:41 ◼ ► about the batteries in your devices over time whether you've adopted any of the persnickety
01:13:46 ◼ ► best practices for battery longevity like keeping them between 50 and 80 percent or using the slowest
01:13:51 ◼ ► charging apparatus available and how often you replace them additionally I'd appreciate it if
01:13:56 ◼ ► you amplified my call for apple to implement a setting and battery health to allow users to set
01:14:01 ◼ ► a maximum charging level so the nerdiest of the nerdy can rest easy knowing that when they go to
01:14:06 ◼ ► bed and plug their phones in overnight they won't charge all the way to 100%. Wow and there are a
01:14:13 ◼ ► bunch of android phones that have that feature like the kind of like niche android phones
01:14:23 ◼ ► uh this is one of the things I I thought okay Ben I will amplify your call but I will have to say on
01:14:30 ◼ ► the show that I do not care about this like yeah I don't I don't do any of this I don't think about
01:14:36 ◼ ► it my device should be doing it for me that's what I think and and that is apple's philosophy on this
01:14:43 ◼ ► apple is doing some battery nerdery like there are battery nerds at apple um and they are doing
01:14:50 ◼ ► battery nerdery behind the scenes right like things are happening like it doesn't charge your
01:14:56 ◼ ► phone up to 100 all the time no and it doesn't keep feeding electrons into it like it hovers
01:15:02 ◼ ► right could they be more aggressive maybe they're balancing the idea that they want your phone to be
01:15:09 ◼ ► ready when you go and if they if they only charge it I don't want to be caught out yeah you don't
01:15:12 ◼ ► want to pick up your phone and and go out for a long day of doing whatever and it's only at 80%
01:15:18 ◼ ► right you don't want to do that right then they have to fight against that I think there is some
01:15:22 ◼ ► um is it on the mac in the like they are they are experimenting with using their kind of
01:15:30 ◼ ► intelligence to guess when you usually I think no actually I think this is on the iPhone like
01:15:37 ◼ ► they know when you unplug and start your day and they they will make some guesses about getting
01:15:44 ◼ ► you fully charged for that moment but not charging you up earlier in the night to full like they are
01:15:51 ◼ ► all so my point is I feel like it's probably not that important and you can easily overthink it
01:15:57 ◼ ► and that apple doesn't want users to worry about it but that behind the scenes apple wants to build
01:16:02 ◼ ► a system that can intelligently do the right thing in the right circumstances to maximize
01:16:08 ◼ ► battery life I do I do think that they're doing that I mean I don't do qi charging just for a
01:16:14 ◼ ► bunch of reasons with my phone like I don't really into it I have a qi charger that I use for my
01:16:20 ◼ ► air pods like just because whatever but like I don't I don't do that I don't do the mag safe
01:16:25 ◼ ► or anything I have 98% battery health on my one year old iPhone which I think feels pretty good
01:16:32 ◼ ► I understand why people want to manage this stuff it's just not something I want to have to think
01:16:37 ◼ ► about when it is something that I do believe that the device manufacturer should be doing the work
01:16:42 ◼ ► on and this is this is the ultimate apple thing right like apple doesn't want you to worry about
01:16:48 ◼ ► it there is by the way in the iPhone it's optimized battery charging and that that's this feature
01:16:52 ◼ ► above 80 it won't do it until it's sort of trying to learn when you need it this was one of those
01:16:58 ◼ ► things that they got in trouble with with the with the throttling years ago yeah so they're they're
01:17:03 ◼ ► they're it's a feature and you can turn it off and they're trying to disclose more what they're doing
01:17:07 ◼ ► but they're always trying to figure out ways to do this and apple is never going to give users that
01:17:12 ◼ ► level of granularity I think because they don't think that the hardware manufacturer should have
01:17:19 ◼ ► to leave the management of the battery also users you know some of what users want to do is more
01:17:26 ◼ ► like it's not necessarily right I think that's the challenge and it's not just that there are
01:17:34 ◼ ► rumors that go around that are inaccurate about the right way quote-unquote to do battery life
01:17:40 ◼ ► also what you'll see if you if you follow this stuff over the long haul is there will be
01:17:45 ◼ ► something that's true about the batteries eight years ago and it's and it stopped being true four
01:17:50 ◼ ► years ago and people are still doing that behavior and now it's detrimental to the health of the
01:17:54 ◼ ► battery or it makes no difference in the health of the battery like quitting all of your apps
01:17:58 ◼ ► yeah people don't know the truth of what's in the detail of behind the scenes on the hardware right
01:18:06 ◼ ► they don't and then when you do learn something sometimes it's no longer true anymore but they
01:18:09 ◼ ► don't really talk about it and you continue to do it almost cargo cult light because you heard it
01:18:13 ◼ ► was the right thing to do once but now it isn't anymore and and that's why I think the right thing
01:18:19 ◼ ► is to just be like no uh-uh we're going to take care of this for you and honestly yes a hardware
01:18:24 ◼ ► manufacturer that lets users tweak those settings and sort of abandons the need for it to do it
01:18:29 ◼ ► itself is not doing its job that is the job of the hardware manufacturer to have the battery
01:18:34 ◼ ► use be as smart as possible let's get an ex-cola hey guys Dan from North Carolina I'm curious if
01:18:43 ◼ ► you know whatever happened with target display mode on IMAX in the last couple years Apple's
01:18:48 ◼ ► been presenting itself as a very environmentally friendly and conscious company but their
01:18:54 ◼ ► current crop of IMAX are all turned into paperweights when the processor is no longer up to snuff
01:19:00 ◼ ► um yeah so target display mode died when the 5k iMac came out because the 5k iMac especially
01:19:08 ◼ ► the initial 5k iMac like nobody had really done that before and it was really janky technology
01:19:12 ◼ ► to get that 5k display and uh building in a somewhat niche feature like target display mode
01:19:22 ◼ ► was not something that they I think could do or at least could reasonably do target display mode by
01:19:27 ◼ ► the way in case you don't know what this is oh yeah okay sure hold down the t key on an older
01:19:31 ◼ ► iMac and it turns your iMac into a monitor you can plug a cable into it and it reads as an external
01:19:37 ◼ ► display on another Mac so here is my answer which is Apple has an answer for you and it's AirPlay
01:19:44 ◼ ► for Mac in Monterey and that I think going forward that's what they're going to do I wonder if they
01:19:51 ◼ ► will ultimately get to it where you can literally just boot and hold down a key and it turns it into
01:19:55 ◼ ► an AirPlay display but I think that's what they're going to tell you and there's going to be a little
01:19:59 ◼ ► bit of lag um but I think that's what they're gonna that that's gonna be their solution is if
01:20:06 ◼ ► you've got an iMac that can run Monterey you can you now have an iMac that is an AirPlay uh target
01:20:13 ◼ ► and then you can just AirPlay use it as an AirPlay display as a second monitor and that will work
01:20:18 ◼ ► um it's not the same it's not but um I don't know if they're gonna invest any money in building in
01:20:26 ◼ ► something more sophisticated than that it would be nice it would be nice if they brought back
01:20:30 ◼ ► target display mode in some way um but because I agree they like I've got this beautiful 5k iMac
01:20:38 ◼ ► Pro here and I'm gonna buy uh an Apple silicon Mac at some point in the next year and either this
01:20:52 ◼ ► this screen is gorgeous right I could keep the screen but how do I do that in a way that's
01:21:01 ◼ ► satisfying so uh yeah it's I hear you and I wish Apple would do something I wonder if the AirPlay
01:21:07 ◼ ► display target thing is something that might lead to a little bit more of a official beaming
01:21:16 ◼ ► sidecar kind of thing where you sort of like take over the display in a future version of MacOS but
01:21:22 ◼ ► I I'm not sure they're going to have a dedicated hold down a key to boot and enter in a mode and
01:21:26 ◼ ► if they do I'm skeptical that it will be the target display mode I think it's more likely
01:21:31 ◼ ► that they'll you'll hold down a key and it'll boot into AirPlay display mode which might not
01:21:35 ◼ ► be what everybody wants but that may be what they're willing to do to provide some follow-up
01:21:40 ◼ ► real-time follow-up to hopefully stop the follow-up target display mode oh target display mode no
01:21:46 ◼ ► target disk mode is hold down yeah right command F2 everybody's favorite everyone's favorite
01:21:53 ◼ ► easy to close those emails everybody definitely always an F2 key on every keyboard it is only for
01:21:59 ◼ ► IMAX basically in from mid 2014 back to about 2009 that was the era of the of the target display mode
01:22:12 ◼ ► which means that the era of the target display mode was five years long and it's been seven
01:22:15 ◼ ► years since then so yeah and Apple would say well you know it's not a paperweight just recycle it
01:22:21 ◼ ► with us that's what they would yeah or just give it to a give it to a friend or something and now
01:22:25 ◼ ► those are good uses too but it would be nice if you could repurpose that screen it's true it sure
01:22:31 ◼ ► would be hi David Schaub from Vancouver here Apple has frequently tried to achieve a single cable
01:22:37 ◼ ► going from a Mac to its display how important is it to you that a single cable can connect your Mac
01:22:42 ◼ ► and external display another another Vancouver yeah oh we are big in Vancouver this is a thing
01:22:50 ◼ ► we have noticed with the relay FM members discord there's a lot of Canadians and the relay FM
01:22:55 ◼ ► members discord like a disproportional amount of Canadians we have discovered which is something
01:23:00 ◼ ► that was unexpected like we have a current events channel and we're initially concerned that it was
01:23:05 ◼ ► going to be all American politics it's actually quite a lot of Canadian politics it tends to be
01:23:10 ◼ ► the majority of the conversations that occur in that channel I love Canadians like we all share
01:23:15 ◼ ► the same queen after all so single cable display so for a desktop for me not important don't care
01:23:23 ◼ ► right like this you know if I have a Mac mini I don't need everything to flow through one cable
01:23:28 ◼ ► it's going to be multiple cables that's fine for a laptop very important and it doesn't work very
01:23:33 ◼ ► well for me with my MacBook and my dock like I have a CalDigit dock and it's plugged in by
01:23:38 ◼ ► Thunderbolt and every single day no matter what I do when I sit down and plug that thing in I have to
01:23:43 ◼ ► unplug my monitor unplug my monitor back in again and it will work if I don't do this it will not
01:23:50 ◼ ► work once I do this it will work this might be because I have a USB-C monitor and a Thunderbolt
01:23:56 ◼ ► dock but you know whatever like it should work but it doesn't I'm going to refer David back to our
01:24:04 ◼ ► previous conversation where I mentioned having a laptop instead of two computers and this is what
01:24:10 ◼ ► I did and I had a I had a when I set up my office here first before I bought the 5k iMac I had a
01:24:18 ◼ ► Thunderbolt dock attached to a monitor and all of my peripherals and ethernet and all of that and
01:24:23 ◼ ► one plug to plug in to do everything and today it used to be one plug plus power and of course on
01:24:30 ◼ ► today's laptops it's one plug including power which is even better yeah I love it I would if I
01:24:38 ◼ ► was using a laptop as my only computer I would absolutely try to set up a one plug setup at my
01:24:45 ◼ ► desk for sure this is why I want like everyone wants an Apple displays why I want an Apple
01:24:52 ◼ ► display is because I'm confident I would get the plug one cable in and it would work situation
01:24:57 ◼ ► I find it all very frustrating I don't really know why this experience has to be as it is I've
01:25:03 ◼ ► figured that Thunderbolt was going to make all that easier but it doesn't look like it has and
01:25:08 ◼ ► it's really hard to get Thunderbolt monitors which is why I have a USB-C monitor because most of them
01:25:14 ◼ ► aren't available especially in the UK some of the OG display ones they are available in America not
01:25:19 ◼ ► available in the UK so I have an LG display but it's USB-C and I think maybe that causes some of
01:25:24 ◼ ► my issues but it shouldn't I think it was about time that we heard from Canada hey pitter patter
01:25:30 ◼ ► let's get at her hello Myke Jason and Relay I am JD from Michigan United States I'm calling in to
01:25:36 ◼ ► ask your opinions on the supposed layout of the cameras on the upcoming iPhone 13 and 13 mini in
01:25:42 ◼ ► their diagonal form do you like this better or worse than the iPhone 11 and 12 design so wow
01:25:49 ◼ ► I'll put a link in the show notes to a MacRumors article where they have some images of this
01:25:53 ◼ ► and I'll explain this on the phones that have the two cameras the 12 ones it's one on top of the
01:25:59 ◼ ► other on the left hand side right and then they have on the right hand side the flash and some
01:26:04 ◼ ► I think it's a microphone on the dummy versions which have the people that have these dummy
01:26:10 ◼ ► versions tend to always be correct it's like MKBHD makes a video about I think this is like comes
01:26:15 ◼ ► from case manufacturers these two cameras on the iPhone 13 models they are opposite each other like
01:26:22 ◼ ► diagonally so one in the top left one on the bottom right I prefer them stacked on top of each other I
01:26:30 ◼ ► think I'm pretty sure I don't care but I would say that I kind of like that they look like a two on a
01:26:38 ◼ ► six-sided die now you're older too all right that's all I got I don't think I care sorry you don't
01:26:49 ◼ ► need to care that's totally fine it's actually part of the reason I put it in there it's like
01:26:52 ◼ ► this is the thing it's like I also it doesn't bother me so much if I had to make a choice which
01:26:57 ◼ ► is to answer JD's question my choices I prefer the other one but it also doesn't bother me that much
01:27:02 ◼ ► because all of these camera bumps are just their own varying variants of ugly and it's just what
01:27:08 ◼ ► ugly are you willing to accept yeah it looks like a domino as well you could say the dots on a
01:27:20 ◼ ► good evening my name is D Griffin Jones from Athens Ohio a lot of people are asking if or when
01:27:26 ◼ ► the apple car will be released but what I would like to ask you is what what ludicrous luxury
01:27:36 ◼ ► I like this question thank you D Griffin I don't know what do you think Myke I my inclination is to
01:27:51 ◼ ► say that it's more likely that the apple car will seem fairly standard with a ludicrous price and
01:27:58 ◼ ► everybody will say wait a second why does it cost x when it doesn't have all of these ludicrous
01:28:07 ◼ ► features that are on other cars that's for sure right like that's one thing one thing is it will
01:28:12 ◼ ► be expensive and it will be lacking something and things and that will make people mad but I did have
01:28:16 ◼ ► a couple of things that I could imagine them doing one is like similar to what you were saying apple
01:28:22 ◼ ► will do some kind of like groundbreaking thing that nobody else does that will be more expensive
01:28:28 ◼ ► and make the experience worse in some way like I'm convinced of this because Tesla has this issue
01:28:34 ◼ ► right Tesla do these things all the time like people hate that new steering wheel thing the
01:28:38 ◼ ► yoke thing right and they're doing it because they're Tesla and they're saying it's better
01:28:42 ◼ ► but everybody thinks this seems to think it's terrible right yeah it's it's it's stupid but
01:28:47 ◼ ► the other things I could imagine is the materials in the interior especially will be quite premium
01:28:53 ◼ ► maybe more than they need to be and there won't be a basic version and I expect there'll be some
01:28:59 ◼ ► kind of like wild ar features in the dash oh yeah like there'll be a heads up heads up projection or
01:29:05 ◼ ► something and it will be like you know you know like how we had that rumor of like the the headset
01:29:12 ◼ ► with the two 8k displays in it which is like way more than it needs similar here right like it will
01:29:18 ◼ ► be some kind of like 8k ar feature which is like just like so much more complicated than is required
01:29:27 ◼ ► why did you do this nobody wants this I mean that's sort of like what you said about the
01:29:34 ◼ ► Tesla yoke but you know right something that's like Apple has prioritized it and I think it's
01:29:39 ◼ ► really clever and everybody else is like I don't know why you did that that that's usually a given
01:29:45 ◼ ► right a baffling decision or or just something that they prioritize I'm thinking like how the
01:29:53 ◼ ► Tesla has the they got rid of the vents for for your air conditioning and heating and replaced
01:30:01 ◼ ► it with like a slot that runs the entire length of the dash it's like it's it's clever and interesting
01:30:07 ◼ ► but it's also like oh that's unusual right like I think there'll be things like that some of which
01:30:11 ◼ ► maybe will be like oh yeah that's very clever and others will be like why did you oh no buttons
01:30:21 ◼ ► Siri or something yeah awesome touch screen stuff with touch screens but there'll be no buttons and
01:30:27 ◼ ► this is the thing that already frustrates people right no buttons like I've seen videos of the
01:30:32 ◼ ► Tesla thing like you know they got like the even like the park reverse neutral drive is on the
01:30:39 ◼ ► screen now and watching somebody do a three-point turn in one of the new Teslas looks hilarious to
01:30:45 ◼ ► me no it's such a bad idea too what are they doing uh yeah I think I think you're right Apple will do
01:30:52 ◼ ► some things like that I would love to believe that Apple will not make the mistakes that Tesla has
01:30:58 ◼ ► made and realize that that physical controls are important and that they'll do some physical
01:31:02 ◼ ► controls but my you know my fear is that they'll do some things that make us pull our hair out and
01:31:08 ◼ ► and war on buttons is always a good thing to guess from Apple I mean honestly I don't even think
01:31:13 ◼ ► about this because I don't think it's even close if ever yeah this car thing just with my own take
01:31:18 ◼ ► on it like they're trying like sure try it but like this I still remain unconvinced about this
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01:34:33 ◼ ► relay fm who's next Jason Snell well our next call Myke comes from Simon good day Myke and Jason this
01:34:41 ◼ ► is Simon from Albany in Western Australia and I want to know do you ever have dreams about
01:34:47 ◼ ► unreleased Apple products or software oh it's Simon from the aus as you said I love it I love
01:34:53 ◼ ► it this is so good you've got two Australians in today's episode you think Simon does the Nutbush
01:34:58 ◼ ► I'm certain of it so I had a dream last night it wasn't about uh products or service let me tell
01:35:08 ◼ ► you by the way Stephen Hackett has wild dreams he sometimes tweets them and they're usually about
01:35:13 ◼ ► like Apple related things because he has a dream journal so he actually writes this stuff down yeah
01:35:19 ◼ ► I'm not a good remember of dreams so I actually don't know if I have these kinds of dreams about
01:35:24 ◼ ► the skills to lack that's probably a pretty good one to not worry I'm fine with it but I did have
01:35:29 ◼ ► a dream last night about Apple so I just wanted to share it their website got hacked Apple's website
01:35:35 ◼ ► got hacked and they started by changing all of the leadership images like that's that's what they did
01:35:40 ◼ ► so it started off like first Johnny I've came back which was which was funny like Johnny I've
01:35:45 ◼ ► his image was there and then it changed to a picture of Johnny I've with electricity coming
01:35:50 ◼ ► out of his head and he was wearing like matrix style neo glasses so it was like a whole thing
01:35:56 ◼ ► then all of the uh did Johnny I've hack Apple was it him maybe I'm gonna put a link in the show notes
01:36:03 ◼ ► actually uh Matt found this I forgot about this Stephen posted one of his best ones at WWDC related
01:36:09 ◼ ► dream oh yeah I told Pixis a while ago I'm not gonna read it because it's too much I'm just
01:36:14 ◼ ► gonna let you go and read it like it's so good you gotta go treat yourself to violence is done
01:36:25 ◼ ► website ended up getting hacked and the images started to look like so if you have if you're
01:36:30 ◼ ► a member of a bunch of discords uh on the left hand side there's like a doc right and they have
01:36:34 ◼ ► all the digital images then app all of Apple's images look like those and then the website just
01:36:39 ◼ ► went all weird so that was my dream last night uh I don't generally have dreams about Apple stuff
01:36:45 ◼ ► believe it or not but what I do have is classic stress dreams where you're unprepared for something
01:36:52 ◼ ► so the way it works is it's an Apple event that I'm late for or forgot about or I can't get in or
01:37:03 ◼ ► I get there too late it's always something like that so it's a physical event it's usually it used
01:37:08 ◼ ► to be infinite loop I suppose those dreams are Apple Park now but the idea is that it's an Apple
01:37:14 ◼ ► event and I've overslept or I am in the car or I forgot or I get there late and it's always it's
01:37:22 ◼ ► the it's the late for school didn't do your homework kind of dream adapted for an Apple event
01:37:27 ◼ ► I had one like this uh which was related to WWDC where for some reason I needed to do like
01:37:37 ◼ ► a dramatic reading of some kind that Tim Cook needed me to do from a book on stage and I didn't
01:37:45 ◼ ► do a very good job and he was really mad at me so that that was my like uh thing like that for some
01:37:52 ◼ ► reason I don't know I feel like uh this is a perfect transitional question because the rest
01:38:05 ◼ ► pew pew pew pew I guess yeah sure I need to I need to fire off the lasers at some point so
01:38:15 ◼ ► quarters limit yeah. Hey Myke and Jason this is Colin from Bonita Springs Florida I'm just curious
01:38:21 ◼ ► on how you two first met and more importantly what were your first impressions of each other
01:38:34 ◼ ► there's there's like different there are different levels to this because of our lives right like the
01:38:39 ◼ ► first time we ever had an interaction I interviewed you on right one of my old podcasts I don't
01:38:46 ◼ ► remember when it was whether it was on the show that I used to do with my friend Terry or ever
01:38:51 ◼ ► it was after that I honestly do not remember it was this is going back a very long time now
01:38:56 ◼ ► oh yeah so there was that I mean obviously I was aware of you before you were aware of me because
01:39:02 ◼ ► I'd been following your work for years when you were at Macworld and stuff the first time we met
01:39:09 ◼ ► in person was at WWDC you invited me to the Macworld party so one every year at WWDC Macworld
01:39:19 ◼ ► used to host this party on the on the roof of the offices yeah it's a terrace so it was off the side
01:39:27 ◼ ► of our our floor there are a couple floors above it but like the the the building kind of gets
01:39:31 ◼ ► smaller at the top so that there's this big terrace out on the sixth floor that that is where we were
01:39:36 ◼ ► yeah so there was that and I know I went to that but I think the first time we had any kind of
01:39:44 ◼ ► meaningful meeting was at the all conference in like 2014 does that sound about right yeah I think
01:39:53 ◼ ► so the one the first one that was in Killarney instead of Kilkenny is that right that was the
01:39:59 ◼ ► first one I went to yeah that that's the first one I went to as well and I think that's I think
01:40:06 ◼ ► that's the one because then the rest of them were at the Europe out in Kilkenny but that one was in
01:40:14 ◼ ► Killarney so many Irish names that are so similar and that's where we had our chat and you were
01:40:21 ◼ ► talking about pens and then we were also talking about stuff and that was our first like real in
01:40:27 ◼ ► person thing but yeah I guess I guess I must have invited you to the Macworld party so that was our
01:40:31 ◼ ► first in person and then before that we had a podcast it's a whole thing so we barely remember
01:40:35 ◼ ► that how about first impressions I mean it doesn't count for me because I was aware of you before
01:40:42 ◼ ► right like very well yeah I mean look my but like the impression I get that the biggest conversation
01:40:50 ◼ ► that we had was when we sat down and we had a very big in-depth conversation about what we wanted to
01:40:54 ◼ ► do in our futures when we had breakfast one morning which was that probably the genesis of upgrade
01:41:02 ◼ ► going all the way back to them I mean and I just left that experience just believing what I already
01:41:10 ◼ ► thought that you were very interesting very kind and very smart person who I dreamed of working
01:41:16 ◼ ► with one day and here we are oh that's very kind well Myke I've got some great news for you love it
01:41:23 ◼ ► I still have all my old emails okay oh wow all right you can work it out and so on February 19th
01:41:31 ◼ ► of 2012 at 1204 pm pacific time Myke Hurley wrote Jason the name of podcast is a tech podcast based
01:41:39 ◼ ► in the UK every week me and my co-host Terrence have a guest on to interview and discuss the
01:41:44 ◼ ► latest news with an apple slant we usually record on Wednesdays at 8 pm our time which I believe is
01:41:49 ◼ ► noon for you we have our 100th episode coming up on March 14th and I'd love you to be a part of it
01:41:54 ◼ ► we can be flexible with the time if necessary thanks man all the best Myke wow look at that
01:42:00 ◼ ► all right so there is on this relay FM re-hosts a bunch of shows that were pre relay FM shows
01:42:09 ◼ ► that show became a show called command space in august of 2012 just a few months later I had you
01:42:14 ◼ ► back on the show but I wasn't on Stephen filled in for me because I was sick yeah and that's I
01:42:22 ◼ ► kept thinking that the first time I was on your podcast you weren't on but that's not true it was
01:42:28 ◼ ► the next time when it had become command space that that I was on without you the I think it's
01:42:37 ◼ ► also telling that my response to you was literally um Wednesdays at noon I would like to say
01:42:47 ◼ ► Wednesdays at noon are good for me but I look out a few weeks and they don't seem to be so good I
01:42:50 ◼ ► might be able to do February 29th or March 14th if you want to move to another time I can probably
01:42:55 ◼ ► find something better so my response was not like hey thanks for being on who are you again it was
01:42:59 ◼ ► like here's when I'm available it's just kind of open door there so isn't that nice and then you
01:43:05 ◼ ► sent me a uh you sent me an email saying are we still okay for tomorrow and here's what we want
01:43:18 ◼ ► and the upcoming angry bird space are we excited or do we have red bird fatigue we definitely had
01:43:31 ◼ ► red bird fatigue at that point I'm exhausted even now about that so that's March 2012 which mike is
01:43:38 ◼ ► nine years ago god so that my my memory is that you were uh one of these people in the mac apple
01:43:47 ◼ ► space who is doing stuff and wants to talk to me and I had a very much an open door kind of policy
01:43:53 ◼ ► of like sure sounds great but that's fun um right so that was different and we had a good and then
01:43:59 ◼ ► we had a good chat like there weren't many people doing that like yeah and I was interested about
01:44:04 ◼ ► pod I was interested in podcasts right and I did have my own podcast but we had the macworld podcast
01:44:08 ◼ ► and you know we had the studio set up at macworld which is I think where we did that um interview I
01:44:13 ◼ ► think I went into the the pod cave at macworld and uh so yeah that's our I guess that's our story and
01:44:18 ◼ ► then and then yes I obviously I appreciated your your diligence and your interview style and then
01:44:22 ◼ ► we got to have that chat at ull which was really the kind of kicking off of our uh larger love
01:44:28 ◼ ► affair relationship yeah sure exactly yes hey this is lisa calling in from tennessee in the us and my
01:44:36 ◼ ► question is if you could go for a week-long vacation in any fictional world where would
01:44:41 ◼ ► you go and what would you do there oh wow this is man I struggled with this question I've been
01:44:46 ◼ ► thinking about this one a lot I want to say the key here is I want very little chance that I'm
01:44:52 ◼ ► going to die right well then you're gonna pick something really boring no no I just I I and if
01:45:00 ◼ ► I go to a fictional universe I want to go to the part of it where bad things don't happen right
01:45:05 ◼ ► like okay like if I want to go to star trek I don't want to be like on the enterprise where
01:45:12 ◼ ► I'm gonna wear a red shirt and die right I just want to be on like an awesome planet okay that
01:45:18 ◼ ► is awesome and futuristic and cool but probably not going to be bombed by klingons right like
01:45:25 ◼ ► that's what I want for my vacation in a world um so and I would probably pick a a fictional world
01:45:35 ◼ ► that is like futuristic and and awesome that that sounds like what I would do so yeah I would
01:45:41 ◼ ► probably pick star trek but I again I I just want to make this clear I don't want to be on a star
01:45:48 ◼ ► ship wearing a red shirt or really on a starship at all because they blow up sometimes I don't want
01:45:53 ◼ ► to I don't want to do that I don't want to be taken prisoner by alien menaces I don't want to
01:45:58 ◼ ► have to separate the saucer and crash into a planet I don't want to do any of those things
01:46:03 ◼ ► I just want to hang out on like Raisa the pleasure planet for a week a week on the star trek pleasure
01:46:09 ◼ ► planet sounds great oh boy um harry potter I thought about it a bunch after Voldemort is dead
01:46:24 ◼ ► the magic people maybe but I still you know a world with magic in it seems really interesting
01:46:32 ◼ ► like I originally thought of like like the marvel universe but realized that's probably not good
01:46:37 ◼ ► like no I wouldn't be able to experience any of the good oh no no no so I thought that that
01:46:43 ◼ ► harry potter would be kind of cool maybe I could be a magician a wizard magician a magician what a
01:46:51 ◼ ► wow wizard some I don't know I thought it'd be kind of kind of cool no that's good that's good
01:47:02 ◼ ► Jason and Myke I'm listener James calling in from New York City my hashtag ask upgrade out loud
01:47:08 ◼ ► question is inspired by some of the discussion from last week's episode if you could write and
01:47:14 ◼ ► publish a book without needing to worry about all the actual logistics of fitting such a passion
01:47:19 ◼ ► project into your life right now what would that book be um well I've I've written some books
01:47:26 ◼ ► and so it would be a novel that I would write or have written or I would write to completion my
01:47:32 ◼ ► problem is that I wrote drafts and then they just sit there and they need to be rewritten and I
01:47:36 ◼ ► haven't rewritten them because I left my job and you know as an independent worker one of the
01:47:43 ◼ ► problems I struggle with is doing spending a lot of time doing work I already work a lot and I
01:47:49 ◼ ► generally am working on things that that are projects that I've committed to and that are
01:47:54 ◼ ► ongoing and I don't have a lot it's hard for me to basically say now I'm going to spend a day
01:47:59 ◼ ► a week or whatever working on my novel and I've tried a few times and it just hasn't happened but
01:48:04 ◼ ► if I had the ability that would be I'd get some of the stuff I've already written into shape
01:48:07 ◼ ► and or maybe start something new that's that's not maybe exactly the answer that you wanted James but
01:48:14 ◼ ► that that would be the answer is that I would I would finish one of these novels that I've written
01:48:18 ◼ ► or I mean they're finished but like I'd rewrite them or I'd write something new I mean I have
01:48:22 ◼ ► great dreams of writing something fictional like so many people do right like I would just I would
01:48:26 ◼ ► adore it like to create a world of my own and write something about it I don't have any particular
01:48:33 ◼ ► idea like anytime I've ever thought about it it just depends to be what is the thing that I'm most
01:48:37 ◼ ► interested in right now you know like what is the world that interests me the most I don't have a
01:48:44 ◼ ► particular thing but one day I would I would love to try and do it one day to write some kind of
01:48:49 ◼ ► fiction but I don't I don't know what that would be all right that's that's fine that's that's uh
01:48:58 ◼ ► we'll just put it out there now our next question it comes from Justin and it is labeled Star Trek
01:49:04 ◼ ► my name is Justin calling in from Iowa in the United States my question is for Jason do you
01:49:10 ◼ ► prefer the earlier episodes of SG-1 when they are outmatched against the Gua'uld or would you
01:49:16 ◼ ► like the later episodes where the Tauri have Asgard and ancient technology also do you like
01:49:22 ◼ ► Atlantis and universe or do you only like SG-1 so Myke this is not Star Trek at all I was like Star
01:49:32 ◼ ► Trek question interesting and then he says SG-1 and I'm like oh nice pronunciation of the Gua'uld
01:49:39 ◼ ► I thought that this was the spin-off but it's not no this isn't the Star Trek spin-off that's Voyager
01:49:45 ◼ ► right like I got Voyager and Stargate mixed up in my brain there's lots of Star Trek spin-offs
01:49:50 ◼ ► yeah I know but all these things and there's lots of Stargate shows and I didn't care about any of
01:49:54 ◼ ► them right so to me it was Star Trek I'm just yeah I know this is the this is a recurring bit
01:49:59 ◼ ► on the incomparable where Steve Letts assumes that all science fiction tv shows are Star Trek
01:50:03 ◼ ► I mean Steve are in complete agreement about this all right yeah love that Star Trek Babylon 5 anyway
01:50:10 ◼ ► uh Justin thank you for your nerdy Stargate question I do love Stargate uh I like the early
01:50:15 ◼ ► years of SG-1 I found the um other spin-offs to be not as good I thought the later years of the main
01:50:25 ◼ ► show were not as good um uh I did watch the spin-offs but I didn't particularly enjoy them
01:50:34 ◼ ► so my real love is in the first five-ish five six seasons of the original show which is awesome and
01:50:40 ◼ ► I bought all the DVDs and I have them on my plex and I watch them as comfort food because they're
01:50:45 ◼ ► very uh enjoyable and comfortable and I hope that uh at some point here somebody brings that
01:50:52 ◼ ► franchise back because that was a lot of fun that's a fun fun sci-fi franchise although not
01:50:57 ◼ ► Star Trek I'm glad we had this talk hi Jason and Myke my name is Michael and I'm from Vancouver BC
01:51:03 ◼ ► what are your favorite sports ball uniforms of all time and which ones do you like the least
01:51:08 ◼ ► Vancouver again I know these Canadians wow they're on it uh you you should change the show somehow
01:51:15 ◼ ► and make it all Canadian focused believe it or not I actually do have an answer for 50% of this
01:51:21 ◼ ► question a sports jersey that I adored at the time and still really do love is the Italian
01:51:38 ◼ ► Kappa and the thing that made this shirt very different is that it was very like clingy like
01:51:45 ◼ ► the shirt was very clingy almost like a surf shirt you know like you the shirt you wear for surfing
01:51:50 ◼ ► and it was very fashionable at the time had a very different color that kind of thing and I remember
01:51:56 ◼ ► like people like me wanted it because it looked really different and interesting and I owned it I
01:52:01 ◼ ► ended up buying a replica shirt and loved it so I don't have a great answer here because I have
01:52:07 ◼ ► too many answers I think this is a great question and I wonder if Michael has actually already aware
01:52:13 ◼ ► of this but I actually have opinions and I care about uniforms I am a regular viewer and I'm gonna
01:52:20 ◼ ► or reader and I'm gonna throw it out there for people who don't know uni watch uni-watch.com
01:52:27 ◼ ► the obsessive study of athletics aesthetics if you're somebody who cares about uniform designs
01:52:35 ◼ ► um all-time favorites I don't know I have lots that's the problem I like a lot of the classic
01:52:44 ◼ ► designs my favorite baseball team the San Francisco Giants have a classic home uniform that
01:52:49 ◼ ► I really like that's like off-white it's kind of a cream color and it's got the block giants on it
01:52:54 ◼ ► and an interesting font and like it's a it's a beautiful classic uniform I'm not a Yankee fan
01:52:59 ◼ ► but you know that is a classic I love the new San Diego Padres jerseys that are brown they brought
01:53:06 ◼ ► back their brown and yellow color scheme my favorite American football jersey is probably
01:53:11 ◼ ► the powder blue San Diego Chargers jerseys because they're gorgeous I just I like them a lot
01:53:20 ◼ ► I have a lot of opinions about ugly jerseys but like there's so many bad jerseys there's so many
01:53:28 ◼ ► bad uniforms out there that I'm not sure I could I mean the worst dressed team in baseball is the
01:53:34 ◼ ► Arizona Diamondbacks their their uniforms are terrible um I'll do a shout out to the Indianapolis
01:53:41 ◼ ► Colts I think they have one of the best NFL uniforms it's super simple but you don't mess
01:53:45 ◼ ► with the classics and I gotta be honest Myke I don't like most soccer kits because I just can't
01:53:52 ◼ ► get over the giant ads on them and it makes me sad because they they try really hard to give them
01:53:59 ◼ ► personality there's some really nice Euro 2020 uniforms by the way that that we're doing like
01:54:05 ◼ ► a very subtle background like patterns and stuff but the major leagues like it's so dominant by the
01:54:12 ◼ ► advertising they put on it that it's hard to focus on the little bits around the edges where they're
01:54:18 ◼ ► trying to give you something nice to look at so that that always makes me sad and I know that's
01:54:24 ◼ ► just it's a cultural thing and probably those giant ads are coming to every uniform ever
01:54:28 ◼ ► but I think it takes away a lot from from that I have lots of opinions about uniforms I think that
01:54:33 ◼ ► is the benefit of the national teams is that they don't have sponsorship on their kits yeah yeah and
01:54:38 ◼ ► there are there are lots but but honestly Michael I would have to take I would have to do like hours
01:54:44 ◼ ► and hours of research to even begin to formulate a list because I have so many opinions about this so
01:54:49 ◼ ► anyway I threw I threw some out there and that's just that's just how it's gonna be I'm sorry I'm
01:54:57 ◼ ► sure there I'm gonna kick myself that there's some terrible NFL uniform that I'm not thinking of that
01:55:03 ◼ ► is really bad but I I'm not thinking of it so oh well hi Myke and Jason this is Kim from Budapest
01:55:10 ◼ ► I have a question for Myke have you ever tried to convince Jason to try any fountain pens and if yes
01:55:16 ◼ ► how was the result thanks no I have there is a bar that people have to cross before I will consider
01:55:26 ◼ ► trying like getting them to try out fountain pens very few of my friends have across this bar
01:55:31 ◼ ► like I will try and get people to get better pens in their lives but there is so many things that I
01:55:38 ◼ ► would have them try out before we would get the fountain pen I do have better pens in my life
01:55:45 ◼ ► than before I met you yeah I do I have some I have some very nice pens now in my little
01:55:50 ◼ ► pen holder on my desk that I don't use that often but when I do I I don't use pens very much I mean
01:55:58 ◼ ► that's the the truth of it is I don't use pens very much I don't hand write things much at all
01:56:03 ◼ ► but I have come around to the idea I mean I already had I was already using a nicer kind of like a gel
01:56:09 ◼ ► pen but now I have some nicer actual like metal pens too if you're gonna use a pen you should use
01:56:14 ◼ ► a good pen I think but um but yeah I'm not even close to the bar of something like that because
01:56:20 ◼ ► like your your work with with me is just to have me have decent pens like literally it's just don't
01:56:26 ◼ ► embarrass yourself use put down the the Bic disposable pen get a nice pen and I have some
01:56:33 ◼ ► nice pens now but that's nice for me anyway but nicer than what I might have been using before
01:56:38 ◼ ► I think you've I think that's far enough I think you're wise to do that you gotta know your limits
01:56:44 ◼ ► yeah where we come together is on on keyboards but that's probably a discussion for Upgrade Plus
01:56:50 ◼ ► if you would like to listen to us talk a bit about keyboards today which I think we will
01:56:55 ◼ ► go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up five dollars a month or fifty dollars a year you get
01:56:59 ◼ ► longer ad-free versions of every single episode of Upgrade. And that brings us to our final question
01:57:07 ◼ ► Hey there Myke and Jason this is a friend of the show Zach from Virginia if you had to award an
01:57:13 ◼ ► upgrade for the most fun summer of fun bit not including this call-in show what would you award
01:57:19 ◼ ► that to that could be you know most fun to record or edit the most summary of all of the bits or
01:57:25 ◼ ► just the concept that you thought was the most fun? Zach is responsible for the scorecards so
01:57:32 ◼ ► he's an actual real friend of the show. I also want to contrast Zach with Chance because Chance was
01:57:37 ◼ ► big and Zach is very small. Just different it's it's been fun to hear everybody's voices. These
01:57:45 ◼ ► are the bookends. I have a feeling that you and I are probably gonna pick the same one which is the
01:57:51 ◼ ► Backward episode. Downgrade yeah yeah it was the first big one where like this episode and others
01:57:59 ◼ ► you mentioned Outgrade earlier and then also the holiday specials where instead of just having a
01:58:04 ◼ ► topic an entire episode is doing something weird and yeah this is one of those. Downgrade. Episode
01:58:11 ◼ ► 254 July 2019 I think I even said this at the time but like as a kid growing up as a teenager I
01:58:19 ◼ ► watched Late Night with David Letterman and they did all sorts of like format breaking episodes
01:58:25 ◼ ► including one where they rotated the the picture like 360 degrees during the episode so by halfway
01:58:31 ◼ ► through the whole picture was upside down and like they just did they didn't care they were like
01:58:36 ◼ ► trying stuff out and and the downgrade idea I just got a real kick out of the idea that we're
01:58:41 ◼ ► literally just doing the show with the segments reversed so we would say goodbye and then we would
01:58:47 ◼ ► do Ask Upgrade and it would go all the way back to the start where we would say hello and that would
01:58:51 ◼ ► be the end of the episode and then theme played backward like so it was a perfectly listenable
01:58:56 ◼ ► podcast all that was different was the sequence in which we did things but I love I love doing that
01:59:01 ◼ ► that was such a great moment of like yes we can do some weird things with the show and it's going to
01:59:06 ◼ ► be fine and since then yes the Outgrade was a lot of fun a lot of those kind of high concept episodes
01:59:12 ◼ ► and this one is going to be in high up on the list now too having the having the call in we do have
01:59:17 ◼ ► some other high concept ideas for format breaking episodes that we will do at some point might not
01:59:25 ◼ ► be this year because we may only have two weeks left I suspect that the summer of fun may rapidly
01:59:31 ◼ ► be coming to an end yeah if Apple were to announce an event for the seventh or the 14th we may rapidly
01:59:48 ◼ ► yeah on that note we are expecting that we'll be doing an emergency draft like I don't you know we
01:59:58 ◼ ► spoke about this earlier it's down to Apple and when Apple announces their event and for these
02:00:03 ◼ ► virtual events they've been announcing it seven days before and they've been Tuesday events which
02:00:08 ◼ ► means that they would make the announcement after we've recorded that that week's upgrade if that
02:00:11 ◼ ► continues to happen we will once again have to do an emergency draft episode where we make our draft
02:00:16 ◼ ► selections and then we will do our post event episode where we also talk about who won the draft
02:00:23 ◼ ► and we would prefer not to do it that way we would prefer to have a little more warning but that's
02:00:28 ◼ ► just how it's been yeah I don't think there's going to be any change I'm almost convinced this will be
02:00:33 ◼ ► a fully virtual event I don't think that there will be an in-person element so Apple will most
02:00:38 ◼ ► likely only give one week's notice in that guard so basically I'm expecting either this week we
02:00:43 ◼ ► Tuesday or Wednesday we find out or next Tuesday or Wednesday we find out and then we'll have to do
02:00:49 ◼ ► a draft episode towards the end of that week so I think that's it I think that is this has been a
02:00:56 ◼ ► great success I think we're bringing this one back I could imagine this being 24 we got way more by
02:01:01 ◼ ► the way yeah I will say we didn't answer all the questions if your question didn't get answered it
02:01:06 ◼ ► wasn't because it was bad it just some of the questions were good questions but neither of us
02:01:11 ◼ ► had answers to them and if we don't have answers to a question there's no point putting the question
02:01:15 ◼ ► in right but thank you to everybody that did someone in I think we would definitely do this
02:01:20 ◼ ► again I could imagine this being something that we would do in future summer of funds because summers
02:01:27 ◼ ► of fun it was great and this wasn't like some of our other episodes where it's really really hard
02:01:33 ◼ ► to do this this wasn't like really complicated to do it was pretty straightforward actually so
02:01:39 ◼ ► that's good thank you to Ferrago from Rogue Amoeba yeah that's right yes yes I all the Rogue Amoeba
02:01:46 ◼ ► products were very helpful in putting this together for Rago and audio hijack and loop back to make it
02:01:51 ◼ ► happen but yeah I have that whole setup for the incomparable when we do our clip show at the end
02:01:55 ◼ ► of the year where I play in clips from previous episodes and I'm just using that same setup here
02:02:01 ◼ ► so that was actually fairly easy to do so so yeah I think we'll bring this back at some point we
02:02:06 ◼ ► could do it we could do it as an ongoing but the truth is I think that then we wouldn't get very
02:02:10 ◼ ► many and it's better off having a special window that opens and that people send in for that episode
02:02:16 ◼ ► and then we close the window again is it that'll be I'll be real right like people say why don't
02:02:20 ◼ ► you just ask it every time because it's so much easier for me to pick the questions and edit the
02:02:24 ◼ ► text than it is for me to pick the questions edit the audio and get the audio like it's just easier
02:02:30 ◼ ► for us to do it this way and and I don't I'm not sure if the audio questions add that much more I
02:02:37 ◼ ► don't know I'll leave a pin in that but it's it's unlikely that we would switch to audio questions
02:02:42 ◼ ► for uh ask upgrade because as well like I know not everybody's going to want to do that like some
02:02:48 ◼ ► people would just prefer to send their question in via text right on on uh tv talk machine we mixed
02:02:54 ◼ ► and matched a little bit but I will tell you that what happens is that people forget to send in
02:02:58 ◼ ► questions for a while and I already had that yeah you don't get the burst of uh of questions that
02:03:04 ◼ ► we get from this so like I said I think it may be more fun to occasionally do an ask upgrade out loud
02:03:10 ◼ ► episode and just have people um do their questions then if you would like to send in a question for a
02:03:18 ◼ ► regular segment just send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or use question mark ask
02:03:22 ◼ ► upgrade and we'll be doing more of those next week thank you so much though to everybody that did
02:03:27 ◼ ► send in a question we really really appreciate it and thank you for making this episode so summary
02:03:33 ◼ ► and funnery thank you to door dash pingdom amazon music and discourse for supporting this week's show
02:03:39 ◼ ► and thank you to everybody that supports us with an upgrade plus membership as well we really
02:03:44 ◼ ► appreciate that if you'd like to find jason online go to sixcolors.com and he's at jasonl on twitter
02:03:49 ◼ ► j s n e double l i'm at i mike i m y k e don't forget to go and check out our fundraiser for
02:03:55 ◼ ► st jews children's research hospital go to st jude.org slash relay and you can donate and we really
02:04:01 ◼ ► really appreciate it and so will st jude so thank you so much for everybody that has done and will
02:04:06 ◼ ► do throughout now and throughout september we'll be back next week of another episode of upgrade