358: Apple Watch Extreme or Whatever


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   For Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 358, and today's show is brought to you by Hello,

00:00:15   Squarespace, and the Public Sector Future Podcast.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:20   Hello, Jason Snow.

00:00:21   Hello, Myke Hurley.

00:00:22   I have a #snowtalk question for you.

00:00:25   Oh, okay.

00:00:26   This comes from JD, and JD wants to know, "Do you use the swipe typing feature on your

00:00:30   iPhone?"

00:00:31   Oh, JD.

00:00:32   Why you gotta do this to me?

00:00:37   Mostly not.

00:00:38   Mostly not.

00:00:39   I know it's there.

00:00:40   It's great that it's there.

00:00:41   I do occasionally use it, but mostly I end up just sort of reverting to habit of tappy

00:00:49   typing.

00:00:50   I'm a big swiper.

00:00:51   Often what happens is that there's a word that I think, "Oh, I should swipe this word,"

00:00:54   and I do, and if it works, it encourages me to keep going, but there are also...

00:01:00   I think I would need to really put some thought into it because there are some words that

00:01:03   I find the swipe typing is really bad at that frustrate me, the short words.

00:01:11   So I would need to build up a system where I know there are certain ones that I type

00:01:15   and certain ones that I swipe, but I don't use my phone enough to put in that kind of

00:01:20   time, honestly.

00:01:21   Right?

00:01:22   I'm not using my phone as somebody who works at home and all that, and I don't even go

00:01:25   out for runs or dog walks with my phone because I just bring my watch.

00:01:30   So I'm not using it enough, I think, to put in that kind of intense time.

00:01:33   I would probably push myself to use it more if I was doing lots of text input on my iPhone,

00:01:39   but I'm not really.

00:01:40   Yeah, I use swipe typing a lot.

00:01:42   I think swipe typing is one of the many, but a big reason for why I have so many errors,

00:01:48   especially when I text people because I'm swipe typing and not really paying attention.

00:01:53   One of my favorite things about swipe typing is when you get a particularly long or complicated

00:01:57   word, like "congratulations," it's almost like you're doing figure skating with your

00:02:02   fingers if you swipe type "congratulations," because not only is it long, the word is actually

00:02:07   pretty nicely split out between both sides of the keyboard.

00:02:12   So if you've never done this before, you could just try swipe typing the word "congratulations"

00:02:16   and you'll see what I mean.

00:02:18   You really go for it.

00:02:19   So yeah, I'm a big one-handed swipe typing person with my big phone.

00:02:24   Swipe typing is really good for big phones.

00:02:26   Very good for big phones.

00:02:28   Yeah, and I'm on the iPhone 12 mini, which is definitely not a big phone, which brings

00:02:36   us to follow-up.

00:02:37   I have something on that.

00:02:38   It brings us to follow-up.

00:02:39   Here we are.

00:02:40   We've reached follow-up now.

00:02:41   Let me thank JD for the #SnailTalk question.

00:02:43   If you'd like to send him one of your own to help us start the show, just send out a

00:02:46   tweet with the #SnailTalk or use question mark #SnailTalk in the Relay FM members Discord.

00:02:51   Follow-up.

00:02:52   According to Taiwanese research firm Trend Force, production of the iPhone 12 mini has

00:02:57   stopped earlier than would have been expected.

00:03:00   It is "end of life."

00:03:02   Now people may remember this if you've been around for long enough and have a good enough

00:03:05   memory.

00:03:06   "End of life" was a big phrase being thrown around a lot for the iPhone 10, because a

00:03:10   similar thing happened with the iPhone 10, where it got "end of life" earlier than expected.

00:03:16   And that basically just means Apple feel like they currently have enough inventory of this

00:03:21   product to sell through its expected period of being available.

00:03:25   Right, because it's going to be replaced, presumably.

00:03:28   The rumors are that there will be a new mini in the fall, but not next year.

00:03:33   That's the current story.

00:03:35   And so if they've made enough now, you don't want to make excess, right?

00:03:39   So they're done making it.

00:03:40   They know how many they're selling.

00:03:42   They know how many they expect to sell, and it's now reached a point where they have stopped

00:03:48   making them.

00:03:49   However, this is sooner than you would have expected if the product was selling well.

00:03:54   I don't like-- I'm gonna-- I suspect that I'm gonna be holding on to whatever this coming

00:03:58   falls model is for a while.

00:04:03   Could be.

00:04:04   Yeah?

00:04:05   If it's the end of the line, because I do love it.

00:04:08   It's perfect for me.

00:04:09   I love it.

00:04:11   But yeah, this is also the kind of thing that happens where, you know, sometimes a product

00:04:16   isn't ready to be replaced, but it stops being available in inventory, like, or it's running

00:04:20   out or it disappears.

00:04:22   And you're like, "Well, why aren't there any available right now?"

00:04:25   And the answer is that they've run out because they're gonna replace it.

00:04:29   And it's because this is the thing that we don't get a lot of insight into, but, like,

00:04:34   Apple has so much complexity in their supply chain, and they're doing this stuff so far

00:04:37   in a dance in a lot of ways.

00:04:39   And you don't want to build thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of phones.

00:04:45   And then when you replace it with a new model, realize that you've got those hundred thousand

00:04:50   phones in the warehouse somewhere unsold.

00:04:54   That's not great.

00:04:56   That's super inefficient.

00:04:58   So they seem to have figured that they've made enough.

00:05:02   And the flip side of it is that story that we don't know if it's true or not, but it

00:05:06   might be true that they made so many HomePods in advance of shipping that product that they

00:05:13   like, they made too many and that they were still selling from their initial run after

00:05:19   it was discontinued.

00:05:20   So that's the flip side of misgauging.

00:05:22   I think they're just gone now.

00:05:24   And people are talking about, you know, Tim Cook is the killer of inventory.

00:05:26   Like, this is obviously Tim Cook's thing, right?

00:05:29   It is a global production thing, this just-in-time supply chain management.

00:05:34   We've seen the pandemic disrupts it and then there's lots of problems because you don't

00:05:38   have stuff in the queue.

00:05:40   You just have everything right the moment you need it.

00:05:42   And if you don't get it, then you can't make your product and all of that.

00:05:45   But I will say when Tim Cook took this over, Apple was really bad at this before Tim Cook

00:05:52   and Steve Jobs sort of like exerted an effort here.

00:05:56   Apple used to have so much excess inventory.

00:06:00   So many weeks of inventory in the channel.

00:06:06   And that was a long time ago now.

00:06:07   But like, and I'm sure this has been a trend again, across all the industries that are

00:06:11   out there that do all this kind of manufacturing stuff.

00:06:14   But like, that was like, one of the things Tim Cook was very much brought in to do was

00:06:18   Apple supply chain was super inefficient.

00:06:21   And the result would be that they would have at any given time months more product than

00:06:30   they could sell out in the channel.

00:06:34   So like, on any given day, if you wanted to buy two months worth of sales of max, you

00:06:42   could do it because they were just sitting in boxes somewhere.

00:06:48   And that's not great.

00:06:50   You got to store them.

00:06:51   You risk depreciation of the value if you cut the price or if you discontinue it.

00:06:58   And that was Tim Cook's thing.

00:07:00   And Apple has obviously gotten really good at that now.

00:07:04   Picture in picture is finally making its way to the YouTube app on iOS.

00:07:08   YouTube have announced and confirmed that it's rolling out now for all YouTube Premium

00:07:13   subscribers and then later on to all US-based users, free or premium.

00:07:21   There is unsure of a later international rollout.

00:07:24   So the way this seems to be, I haven't gotten it yet.

00:07:27   I keep checking.

00:07:28   If you're a YouTube Premium subscriber anywhere, they're going to give it to you.

00:07:32   And if you're in the US, they will eventually do that for everybody.

00:07:37   My understanding of why US is they've worked out a new advertising system, I believe, that

00:07:46   will work with picture in picture.

00:07:49   And my understanding is this is only working in the US right now and or they're still testing

00:07:55   it.

00:07:56   They're going to be going for the market at the time and they're probably going for their

00:07:58   most important market, which is the US.

00:08:01   Myke, my not knowing anything about how YouTube is put together, I'm just going to make a

00:08:05   guess here, which is that the way that the YouTube web player works and the way the YouTube

00:08:09   app player works as well is a thing where they've got a video file and then they've

00:08:16   got some logic about the ad insertion and then they stop playing the video file and

00:08:21   play the ad.

00:08:22   I think they're doing something more with actually embedding ads in rather than...

00:08:27   Well, this is what I think is I think the current way it works is that they've got a

00:08:30   video file and they've got ads and that the players are doing the work.

00:08:34   And that doesn't work with picture in picture because picture in picture is taking a video

00:08:39   stream and displaying it.

00:08:41   And it's not a web page.

00:08:42   So it may be that their new system is actually dropping the ads right into the video stream.

00:08:51   I will just say as a long time YouTube premium subscriber, I actually think this is the best

00:08:56   money that I spend on a streaming service, if you would call it that.

00:09:02   When I see a YouTube video with ads on it, I'm surprised because I've been...

00:09:07   Since it became available, I have been a subscriber.

00:09:10   And what I like is that a lot of that money goes to the creators that I enjoy.

00:09:14   They get money from the YouTube premium program.

00:09:16   Yeah.

00:09:17   And I watch more YouTube than any other streaming service.

00:09:20   So...

00:09:21   Yeah.

00:09:22   I don't watch enough YouTube for it to be worth it for me.

00:09:24   But whenever I do use YouTube, oh, the ads are bad.

00:09:27   There's so many of them and they're so disruptive.

00:09:31   And I...

00:09:32   And then certain campaigns, depending on what target market you're in, will just repeat

00:09:37   endlessly because they've sold that campaign.

00:09:40   And so you start to hate the people who are on the first unskippable portion of the ad.

00:09:45   And it's awful.

00:09:46   But I don't use YouTube enough to pay for a premium.

00:09:50   So there you go.

00:09:53   Forensic Overtime.

00:09:54   We spoke about this a while ago.

00:09:56   The game from the Icon Factory is now available via Apple Arcade.

00:09:59   It popped up, I think, on Friday.

00:10:02   I've been playing it over the weekend.

00:10:04   I really love it.

00:10:05   So...

00:10:06   It's really good.

00:10:07   Quick review for you.

00:10:08   The core gameplay, if you remember the old Forensic, it's very similar.

00:10:11   It's faithful to the original.

00:10:13   They've modernized it in places.

00:10:14   They've added some variations in places.

00:10:16   But the core gameplay of...

00:10:20   It's like a matching game.

00:10:22   You have like...

00:10:23   Yep.

00:10:24   Almost imagine like a Trivial Pursuit, like the little pieces in a Trivial Pursuit circle.

00:10:27   You have a bunch of these circles.

00:10:28   You get different tiles and you have to match them together in colors.

00:10:31   And it's like...

00:10:32   There's some pattern matching stuff.

00:10:34   It's very fun.

00:10:35   They've added in power-ups and this whole new game mode and stuff.

00:10:39   Overall, it's a very polished, more modern-feeling version of the original.

00:10:44   Easy recommendation for me, especially because it's a part of Apple Arcade.

00:10:48   So I really love it.

00:10:50   And I'm so pleased that they brought this game back and made a new version of it.

00:10:55   It's an absolute classic and this one lives up to it.

00:11:00   Super good.

00:11:01   Yeah, I have had it for a few months.

00:11:03   It is very good.

00:11:05   It is...

00:11:06   Yeah, it's an intense puzzle game, right?

00:11:07   So you have to...

00:11:11   You don't sit back and think.

00:11:13   You have to react quickly.

00:11:16   Heroes working against the timer.

00:11:18   And as you would expect from the Icon Factory, yeah, so much of it is about the sounds and

00:11:24   the graphics and everything like that that makes it look really good.

00:11:29   So they did a great job.

00:11:30   They did a really, really great job.

00:11:32   All right, should we catch up on some upstream headlines, Jason?

00:11:36   A lot to catch up on, yes.

00:11:38   Let's do it.

00:11:39   All right, so there's a bunch of stuff that Apple's working on.

00:11:41   They've got some more teaser trailers that they've been showing off.

00:11:45   They have one which is just like a blanket summer teaser, which is doing a lot of work,

00:11:51   really.

00:11:52   There is lots of quotes and stuff about all of the press reception and the critical acclaim

00:11:57   that they've received so far.

00:11:59   There's a bunch of clips for shows that are already...

00:12:02   Movies that already exist.

00:12:04   And then they're also showing stuff for stuff that's coming on the service later this year.

00:12:09   Like Invasion and the Foundation series, we see more of these than we've seen before.

00:12:13   I'd forgotten what Invasion was, and it is an alien invasion focused science fiction

00:12:21   show.

00:12:22   There's a lot of interesting stuff there.

00:12:25   But they also had some extended trailers as well.

00:12:29   One of the new ones is for The Shrink Next Door, which is the Will Ferrell, Paul Rudd,

00:12:33   Kathryn Hahn show, which looks like a movie, but it's a TV show.

00:12:38   It's a limit series TV show.

00:12:40   It's a mini series.

00:12:42   It's really an idea that was bigger than a movie.

00:12:44   So the visuals of it though, it looks so beautiful.

00:12:48   Like it looks movie quality.

00:12:50   If you cut a movie trailer and said, "This is a movie," you would believe it, but it's

00:12:55   not.

00:12:57   But I think the distinction is literally that they're putting it out in installments and

00:13:03   it's longer than a movie would be, but otherwise it's indistinguishable from a movie.

00:13:08   Yeah.

00:13:09   I'm mega excited about this.

00:13:10   I was excited about it anyway because the cast is so good.

00:13:15   So it's just like, Will Ferrell, Paul Rudd, I'm in.

00:13:19   But I didn't really know a ton about the premise and it looks funny, but also complicated and

00:13:26   a little bit dark.

00:13:28   I'm really excited about this show.

00:13:30   I think it's going to be great.

00:13:33   When I saw this, it made me think of something.

00:13:36   We've said it on this show before, but for me, this really kind of solidified it, which

00:13:40   is I kind of think that Apple has the real shot here of being the next HBO.

00:13:48   I think that's the world that they're going to start playing in.

00:13:51   Big stars, good content, compelling shows that you want to sign up for.

00:13:57   I was thinking, and yeah, we talked about this quite a bit that HBO in turning into

00:14:03   HBO Max is becoming more stuff.

00:14:09   There's still HBO, but HBO Max has really subsumed it.

00:14:13   So that means that HBO Max is also anime and it's also DC TV shows and it's also Friends.

00:14:24   It's literally all those things.

00:14:28   And Apple TV Plus, because they're basically just focusing on originals and not catalog

00:14:34   stuff feels more like original HBO.

00:14:37   The other thing that struck me about this is it's funny.

00:14:43   I know that this is not for everybody, but that's okay.

00:14:46   Not everything is for everybody.

00:14:47   But like I was on, we were looking for something to watch last night and I was on Netflix.

00:14:53   I was like kind of poking around there and I was thinking, and Saturday night too, it

00:14:56   was like, maybe you want to watch a movie, is there a TV show?

00:15:00   But I was kind of open to whatever.

00:15:04   And what I noticed is that on HBO Max and Hulu and especially Netflix, there's so much

00:15:14   content that it's overwhelming.

00:15:18   And even when you go down to Netflix originals, there's so much that it's overwhelming.

00:15:24   And honestly, I don't think Netflix does a very good job of marketing their stuff.

00:15:28   I know they've got the algorithms, they've got the data, they're programming our brains

00:15:32   to figure out what we want to watch next.

00:15:35   But the problem with that is in terms of really showing off the stuff that they think that's

00:15:40   original and that they presumably think that I will like, they have one featured area,

00:15:46   but it's just a bunch of little tiles.

00:15:48   It's just not that interesting.

00:15:50   And I went over to Apple TV plus, to the TV app, into the Apple TV plus tab.

00:15:57   And what I admired about it was because they don't have that much stuff, they just have

00:16:03   their originals and it's a limited amount.

00:16:06   It felt way more focused.

00:16:08   I felt like I could get a really good sense of what was on offer at any particular time.

00:16:13   And then from that I could choose, is there something I want to watch?

00:16:17   And I guess what I'm saying is there's an argument to be made that focus and simplicity

00:16:27   is a feature.

00:16:29   And that even if Apple only has a fraction of the original content that Netflix has,

00:16:37   there's something to be said for having sort of like picked their lane a little bit.

00:16:43   And again, they're appealing to a bunch of different people, right?

00:16:45   Like Ted Lasso and C and the morning show and the shrink next door.

00:16:50   And they're trying to do a bunch of different stuff, but still like HBO tried to do that

00:16:57   too, but still kind of goal is high quality kind of prestige TV and limited selection.

00:17:05   So you know who they are and what they've got on offer.

00:17:07   And I don't know, I find that valuable.

00:17:10   I think that when you end up releasing as much stuff as Netflix does, it kind of devalues

00:17:17   all of it.

00:17:19   And certainly in the app, like the only way that I know what to watch on Netflix at this

00:17:22   point is friends of mine recommending things.

00:17:27   Because if I had to look, if I had to stumble upon it in Netflix, I never would.

00:17:31   There's a new Ted Lasso trailer came out today.

00:17:35   Another season two, we had a little teaser and now there's a little, another little glimpse

00:17:40   at what the, I'd actually say if you really want to go into Ted Lasso season two, not knowing

00:17:45   what's going on, maybe don't watch it because it's Ted Lasso.

00:17:49   It's all recognizable, but I think I suspect it gives away a bunch of what's going to happen

00:17:54   in season two.

00:17:55   I was able from one viewing to think about a lot of it.

00:17:58   Yeah, I watched it and I wouldn't, if you know you're going to watch the show, I wouldn't

00:18:02   recommend watching it, but maybe more exciting is the Ted Lasso official merch store opened

00:18:08   today as well.

00:18:09   Ah.

00:18:10   This is confusingly on the Warner Brothers website.

00:18:15   Now Ted Lasso is very complicated licensing wise and Warner Brothers is one of the companies

00:18:22   that's involved in the distribution and creation of the show and they have everything.

00:18:27   They have personalized jerseys and hoodies and mugs and glasses and hoodies and a blanket

00:18:34   and stickers and everything.

00:18:36   They have so much stuff, but I actually kind of like it because there's something for everyone

00:18:40   and this is not the amount of merch that would exist I think if Apple were running the merch

00:18:45   store.

00:18:46   Sure.

00:18:47   Of course I have no idea what the quality of it's like, but you figure it's probably

00:18:50   going to be okay, right?

00:18:51   You imagine a company like Warner Brothers probably has a pretty decent merch operation

00:18:55   at this point.

00:18:57   So yeah, I am going to poke around this.

00:18:58   I'm definitely going to buy something, but I don't know what it is yet.

00:19:02   Yeah.

00:19:03   So there you go.

00:19:04   It's a new family, although what they say, they say that there's more to come because

00:19:08   like there are no AFC Richmond, like there's one Jersey, I guess.

00:19:15   Yeah.

00:19:16   And you can personalize it with your name on it, which is cool.

00:19:19   Yeah.

00:19:20   It's funny.

00:19:21   It doesn't have the, uh, it doesn't have the fake sponsor.

00:19:23   No.

00:19:24   Yeah.

00:19:25   I wonder about that kind of stuff.

00:19:28   New fake.

00:19:29   In fact, among the things in the trailer, I was like, oh, they have a new fake shirt sponsor.

00:19:33   And I think, uh, you know, there's probably, I actually thought to myself, there's probably

00:19:37   a, at least a joke, if not a plot line about that.

00:19:40   And I've now been spoiled on it because I saw the trailer, but you know, don't watch

00:19:43   the trailer.

00:19:44   It's fine.

00:19:45   It's Ted Lasso.

00:19:46   It's coming back.

00:19:47   Take a look at the much.

00:19:48   Yeah.

00:19:49   It's very fun.

00:19:50   The Apple TV plus free trial is dropping from one year to three months.

00:19:54   If you buy a product, you've always gotten a year of Apple TV.

00:19:57   That's not going to be three months of Apple TV.

00:20:00   It starts in July, AKA Ted Lasso season.

00:20:05   And this is also actually, believe it or not, when the initial trial period will finally

00:20:11   be coming to an end.

00:20:15   So this is the free trial that we've all been on, uh, since it started, it's been extended,

00:20:20   extended, extended, and it's, it's actually coming to an end in July.

00:20:24   Uh, and it's kind of funny really, because I think the initial thinking that we all had

00:20:28   was like, oh, that's going to come to an end in time for, for all mankind in time for the

00:20:33   morning show.

00:20:34   But now it's ended up being for Ted Lasso.

00:20:38   It's not necessarily what we would have expected, but, you know, in the morning show was coming

00:20:42   after that and all of that.

00:20:43   But yes.

00:20:44   Yeah.

00:20:45   They're clearly doing it in July for that.

00:20:47   Right.

00:20:48   Like that's why, cause like, you know, morning show September and they got a bunch of other

00:20:51   stuff coming up this year.

00:20:54   Disney plus is committing to Wednesday releases for their original content shows going forward.

00:21:00   This change was made after Loki became the most popular premiere to date.

00:21:04   Yeah.

00:21:05   It's they, so they, they put Loki, obviously they were thinking about this because they

00:21:08   scheduled Loki on a Wednesday, although they, they have like the bad badges running and

00:21:13   that was on Friday.

00:21:14   So they had some other stuff that was rolling out on Fridays, but they pushed Loki out on

00:21:19   Wednesdays and the result was that, um, it was very successful and they, they said the

00:21:26   most popular premiere of a show that they've had.

00:21:29   I think it was going to be that way wherever it was, whatever day of the week they brought

00:21:32   it out.

00:21:33   I think so, but they wanted to experiment.

00:21:34   And it's a funny thing.

00:21:35   You know, TV scheduling is weird.

00:21:37   Um, in the U S traditionally the big day that everybody wanted to schedule shows, their

00:21:42   biggest shows was Thursday.

00:21:44   And that was not necessarily because it was the day that was the most watched.

00:21:47   Um, but because it was the day where, uh, the, all of the money for ads for movies for

00:21:54   the weekend would run.

00:21:57   Um, and so that was, that was the most lucrative day.

00:22:00   And that's why you wanted your biggest shows to be programmed on Thursdays is because all

00:22:04   the movie studios would come in with their ads for the movies for the weekend on a Thursday

00:22:08   because of Friday, they're out seeing movies and over the weekend, um, it used to be in

00:22:13   the U S that like Saturday and Sunday were the biggest TV viewing days.

00:22:18   And now Saturday is a complete dead zone.

00:22:20   So now in the streaming world, we're remaking the weekly schedule.

00:22:25   Um, Netflix drops everything on Friday.

00:22:27   Apple drops everything on Friday.

00:22:29   There's a real log jam of content on Friday.

00:22:32   And um, so this is really interesting cause it's Disney saying, we're gonna, we're gonna

00:22:36   back it up to Wednesday.

00:22:37   It's weird because it means like we had our, you know, Friday night Mandalorian night and

00:22:42   now Loki is, is Wednesday.

00:22:45   And now all the other Disney stuff is going to be on Wednesday too.

00:22:47   I guess.

00:22:48   Um, I sent you when this was going on a couple of tweets by TV critic, Alan Sepinwall, who's

00:22:52   at rolling stone and he made the point, which I think is spot on that ultimately what's

00:22:59   going to happen is different shows are going to have different release days and we're going

00:23:04   to go back to the world of network TV, essentially replicated on streaming, which is different

00:23:10   stuff's going to come out on different days.

00:23:12   And on Tuesdays you get for weekly releases, especially because the great thing about a

00:23:18   weekly release show having a certain day is it's appointment television because people

00:23:23   want to watch it on the day and talk about it.

00:23:25   Like if it's really a big, you know, word of mouth kind of thing.

00:23:29   And the reason you do a weekly release is because you want people talking about it week

00:23:32   to week.

00:23:33   So for now, all the Disney stuff is going to be on Wednesday and that's fine, but I

00:23:39   look for, look for different services to experiment this with a little, a little bit more.

00:23:45   Um, obviously HBO max because HBO has air dates on their linear channel for their, their

00:23:52   shows, those released weekly on a certain date.

00:23:54   But what I noticed is that even their originals are releasing on a date.

00:23:58   We watched hacks, which is a really good show by the way on HBO max and it's an HBO max

00:24:05   original comedy, uh, eight episodes, 10 episodes, really great show.

00:24:11   Um, highly recommended actually.

00:24:14   And it, it had a weekly two episodes a week cause it's a comedy and so they dropped two

00:24:19   a week weekly Wednesday release schedule.

00:24:23   And even better than that, when you press play, it said it had a little title card that

00:24:29   came up before the show starts and it says hacks, new episodes Wednesdays.

00:24:33   It's like, yes, remind me to be here on Wednesday for new episodes and it totally worked.

00:24:41   So it's fascinating to watch this happen and to see companies like Netflix roll in and

00:24:47   say, Oh, we're going to change everything.

00:24:49   We're just going to drop everything in a binge watch on a Friday and just take over the weekend.

00:24:54   And that's what we're going to do.

00:24:55   And then you've seen other services go, well, what if we experiment with some different

00:24:59   stuff and I suspect that you are going to end up with something that looks a little

00:25:03   more like what network television used to look like.

00:25:05   Then you would, you would have maybe guessed from what Netflix is doing because I think

00:25:10   they're actually, just as I am a firm believer that there is power in releasing things weekly

00:25:14   because we talk about it as it's going on instead of having Netflix sort of just sweep

00:25:18   in, drop it and then go away again.

00:25:21   But I think that there's also power in making that appointment and your release day is the

00:25:26   appointment that you're making.

00:25:27   And with the Mandalorian, it was Friday with Loki.

00:25:29   It's Wednesday.

00:25:30   What will come next?

00:25:32   You know, I don't know, but I like, I really like that idea of saying we're releasing this

00:25:36   weekly and you can get it on Tuesday or whatever that day is.

00:25:41   That's, uh, I like it because a weekly release is an appointment making release schedule.

00:25:47   So you should do that.

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00:28:13   So Mark Gorman posted a report last week about the future of the Apple watch.

00:28:20   So this year's watch, we'll call it the Series 7 just for the sake of conversation,

00:28:27   should be outfitted with the following.

00:28:29   Faster processor, obviously.

00:28:32   Sure.

00:28:33   Improved wireless.

00:28:36   That's all the report says.

00:28:38   I'm assuming not 5G, probably Wi-Fi 6, right?

00:28:44   I don't know.

00:28:45   I don't know.

00:28:49   I don't think they could deal with the battery drain of 5G in the product.

00:28:54   It seems unlikely, right?

00:28:55   Yeah.

00:28:56   It doesn't seem very likely to me.

00:28:59   Thinner display borders.

00:29:02   And again, this is sometimes, we've already had this with two points.

00:29:06   You have to look at what is not said to try and work out what is said.

00:29:12   So like improved wireless, we assume is something probably Wi-Fi related.

00:29:19   Or Bluetooth.

00:29:20   Or Bluetooth.

00:29:21   Yeah, it could be Bluetooth.

00:29:22   But I don't know, like is there better Bluetooth?

00:29:24   I don't know, maybe.

00:29:25   Like thinner display borders, does that mean a larger screen?

00:29:30   Right.

00:29:32   Are they expanding the screen or shrinking the border?

00:29:36   Which do you think they'd be more likely to do out of those two?

00:29:39   Shrink the border.

00:29:40   Yeah, I think so too, because they only just changed the screen size like two years ago.

00:29:47   You wouldn't want to bifurcate that again, right?

00:29:51   Especially when they're still keeping the Series 3 around, it seems like.

00:29:57   Yeah, app design and development would have to completely change, which is not to say

00:30:03   that they won't do that, but it seems like there's a little bit of a barrier there.

00:30:08   I know that a lot of developers that focus on the Apple Watch were really surprised to

00:30:13   see that the Series 3 will continue to be supported with WatchOS 8.

00:30:19   It feels like at a certain point Apple have to draw the line and it's not now.

00:30:23   They have to support hardware that they're selling though is the problem.

00:30:27   So even if they stop selling the Series 3 or the SE or whatever, all of that old tech,

00:30:34   once they stop selling it all, they can stop supporting it after a certain amount of time.

00:30:37   Oh right, it could be their way around.

00:30:39   Maybe they stop selling it this year.

00:30:40   Right, they've got old tech that they're still selling.

00:30:42   So they still have to support it for a while, even though they probably shouldn't be selling

00:30:46   it, but they are.

00:30:48   So we'll see.

00:30:49   That to me is going to be one of the big questions about the Apple Watch this fall is just like,

00:30:54   are they going to change their low-end strategy?

00:30:56   Are they finally going to push some of that old hardware out of the market?

00:31:00   Is the SE going to be more of what we thought it was going to be last year and ended up

00:31:04   not being where it's like, it's the low-end watch except for the other one that's lower.

00:31:09   So I'm curious if they change their approach there or not.

00:31:14   Well, let's pause talking about this Series 7 and talk about the SE for a minute because

00:31:19   one detail in this report is that there is a new SE model coming in 2022, that the SE

00:31:25   will not be revised in 2021.

00:31:28   I wouldn't expect it to be because they just announced it.

00:31:31   I think I'm more wondering if they will drop their cheap old watch and lower the price

00:31:39   of the existing SE to fill that role rather than selling.

00:31:41   I think that's what they need to do.

00:31:43   Because that's what we all assumed last year.

00:31:45   And honestly, when you look at it, it looks to me like that was the intent.

00:31:50   And then they realized they couldn't get away with it.

00:31:53   Like they couldn't do that and keep the margins where they wanted them.

00:31:57   So they kept selling the Series 3.

00:31:59   So it could be that this year we see them finally get down there with the SE and kick

00:32:03   the Series 3 to the curb.

00:32:05   And then next year there's a new SE in order to kind of keep refreshing that model.

00:32:10   Because yeah, clearly I don't see how anybody can look at we're selling a 6, an SE, and

00:32:15   a 3 and think that that was what they wanted to do.

00:32:21   I mean, when I say that, it's very much like they wanted to do that, but the asterisk is

00:32:27   and make the profit margins that they expect on the product.

00:32:30   And set the price that they expect.

00:32:33   And they couldn't do it.

00:32:35   It looks like they overshot a little.

00:32:36   The SE was a little too ambitious for 2020.

00:32:40   So maybe for 2021, the SE can get there.

00:32:43   And then I think going forward, I would not be surprised if there's always an SE that

00:32:49   I mean, that's a classic Tim Cook Apple kind of model, which is we've got a new model that's

00:32:54   kind of old tech.

00:32:56   But it's new, just kind of old.

00:33:00   And then we've got the super new model that is actually new.

00:33:05   But the SE is, I think, a much more appealing product name and concept than the Series 3,

00:33:11   which is literally, it's just an old watch.

00:33:15   So we'll see if it finally dies.

00:33:17   >> At least it looks, currently looks like the new one.

00:33:19   >> They can't sell the Apple Watch Series 3 up until the day that they finally release

00:33:23   the new version of watchOS that doesn't support it.

00:33:25   And then go like, whoops, well, you're stuck.

00:33:27   >> I got that wrong.

00:33:28   It's the other way around.

00:33:29   You want to see them get rid of Series 3 this year so they can drop the support in watchOS

00:33:33   9 maybe or watchOS 10, but hopefully watchOS 9 for developers.

00:33:37   But like I've said this-

00:33:38   >> WatchOS 10, I'm just imagining a big X.

00:33:40   >> WatchOS X.

00:33:42   I mean, I've said it before.

00:33:43   I'll say it again.

00:33:44   I mean, it's probably one of these things that frustrates people because I say it too

00:33:46   often.

00:33:47   But I think that the SE is a bad product.

00:33:51   In its current guise, I think it's too expensive for what you get.

00:33:55   >> Especially considering the Series 3 is out there.

00:33:58   >> Clearly, they thought that they were going to hit the Series 3 price and they failed.

00:34:05   So try again on the phone.

00:34:07   >> It's a Series 4, right, for $329.

00:34:11   Like, I don't know.

00:34:13   I was just, there's so many things that the Apple Watch SE does not have that you think

00:34:17   that it would have.

00:34:19   Like it doesn't have the ECG, doesn't have an always on retina display.

00:34:24   But it still costs $330.

00:34:25   Like, I just find that too expensive.

00:34:31   But it is sensible to have a product in the cheaper lineup for all of the things that

00:34:38   they spoke about when they announced the SE.

00:34:40   It was like that whole family thing.

00:34:42   >> It's just whatever they calibrated is what they could do.

00:34:45   And I think part of the problem is that they made a tech transition, right?

00:34:48   They changed the display size.

00:34:51   They did a bunch of stuff that means there's a divide between Series 3 and Series 4.

00:34:58   And so you end up in this position where you're like, well, what we want to do with the SE

00:35:02   is make a cheap version of our modern platform.

00:35:06   And they did that, but they couldn't make it cheap enough to satisfy what they wanted

00:35:11   as their base price point for the Apple Watch.

00:35:14   And so they kept the last version of the old platform around way, I mean, and we're not

00:35:20   even getting into the fact that like, I don't know if we talked about it here or not, but

00:35:24   as I know several people who have a Series 3 and like, Apple has, there were series of

00:35:30   problems right where it wouldn't do a software update because it said there wasn't enough

00:35:33   space available.

00:35:35   And Apple finally just changed their tech note to say, if you want to update the software,

00:35:38   you just need to erase the watch and start again.

00:35:42   And it's like, it should not be for sale.

00:35:44   That product should not be continued to be sold.

00:35:47   There's no way.

00:35:49   And so actually speaking of inventory, I wonder if one of the reasons that they're still selling

00:35:53   it is they made too many, but right.

00:35:54   And they're like, sell them until they're gone.

00:35:59   But clearly the SE is what they want that watch to be.

00:36:02   And but it's based on the new stuff and it clearly costs more than they were willing

00:36:06   to eat in pricing it down at the price that they're selling the Series 3.

00:36:12   So we'll have to see what they do there because what you want is it to be good, but not cutting

00:36:19   edge.

00:36:20   You want it to be cheaper, but instead of it being a three-year-old watch, what you

00:36:24   want it to be is sort of like the de-contented version of the current watch.

00:36:28   You want it to just be sort of like current watch light rather than it being just old,

00:36:36   ancient old model continued to be sold.

00:36:39   Because the idea there is that the SE doesn't feel as old as Series 3 where you're like,

00:36:44   you're literally we're saying in the name you're three behind where everybody else is

00:36:49   right now.

00:36:50   It's not so great.

00:36:51   Just want to quick bit of real time follow up from Zach and the Discord.

00:36:54   329 is the GPS and cellular version of the SE.

00:36:57   It starts at 279, still too expensive compared to the 399 or 499 Series 6 in my opinion.

00:37:04   I think it's still too much.

00:37:06   So going back to the Series 7, as well as a change in the way that the screen looks,

00:37:14   we expect thinner borders by making it smaller.

00:37:18   Apple's working on a new screen lamination technique to bring the display closer to the

00:37:22   glass.

00:37:23   I remember this was a big deal for the iPhone.

00:37:26   Like whenever they would do that, it made the display look so much better because it

00:37:30   felt like it was closer to what you were touching.

00:37:33   So I bet that would look cool.

00:37:35   I don't feel this about the Apple Watch though.

00:37:38   I don't feel like the Apple Watch is deep down beneath a layer of glass.

00:37:42   Now maybe with a thinner laminated display you end up with something that feels more

00:37:48   tactile but to me I feel like the illusion is pretty good as it is.

00:37:53   I have another theory here which is this could just be a way to get the display portion to

00:37:58   be thinner so that they can pack some other stuff in or make the watch thinner.

00:38:03   For Germin's report it says it's slightly thicker so that leads me to believe that maybe

00:38:07   the lamination is less about trying to get a more visible screen and more about reducing

00:38:13   that portion of the thickness because they've got some other thing that they're doing,

00:38:18   whether it's battery or other kind of watch tech that is going to bloat the thing and

00:38:24   they're trying to shave off in other areas in order to get it to be back down.

00:38:29   I would say I have never considered the Apple Watch too thick.

00:38:33   It is chunky but it works okay for me but I would not mind it being thinner and it has

00:38:43   not gotten thinner.

00:38:45   It has gotten a little bit more bulky and that's the report here from Mark Germin is

00:38:51   that that's going to happen again.

00:38:53   I feel like they're pushing it.

00:38:57   At some point it gets to be too much I think.

00:39:00   I have another random piece of real-time follow-up but I want to address it for all the people

00:39:04   that will have tried to tweet us so far and I just did just confirm it.

00:39:07   The Ted Lasso merch is US only which sucks.

00:39:11   That's so bad.

00:39:13   Warner Brothers, shame on you Warner Brothers.

00:39:16   What's that about?

00:39:18   But that slight thickness, I mean I don't want to keep saying it but maybe it is a 5G.

00:39:23   Bigger battery in there.

00:39:24   I don't know.

00:39:25   For 5G they made the screen thinner so they can get more space inside.

00:39:29   I don't know.

00:39:31   In regards to sensors, again this report is more about things Apple wanted or are working

00:39:36   on than what will be in the Series 7.

00:39:40   Because Mark Germin talked to people who knew what they were working on and that it didn't

00:39:42   make it in right?

00:39:43   Like behind the scenes is people who were like "uh we couldn't get that in" and they're

00:39:48   sad and they talked to Mark Germin about it.

00:39:50   Body temperature sensor pushed to 2022.

00:39:53   That one seems really logical to me.

00:39:55   I know that it must be difficult to do that but it would be nice and it's right up against

00:40:00   your skin right?

00:40:01   It would be really nice if it could say not only chart your body temperature maybe but

00:40:05   also alert you if your body temperature is out of norm.

00:40:10   And that's like feels genuinely super useful.

00:40:13   Like one you could use like more people would get more frequent use out of than a heart

00:40:18   sensor or the blood oxygen.

00:40:21   Right and I'm thinking of the applications of it.

00:40:23   I'm not a doctor obviously but not only is it like you might be running a fever but you

00:40:29   could warn against heat stroke.

00:40:31   You could warn against hypothermia.

00:40:34   Like there's all sorts of things you could potentially do beyond just you might you know

00:40:38   are you feeling okay?

00:40:39   You might have a fever.

00:40:41   Have some chicken soup.

00:40:42   That kind of the mother the mom feature of the Apple watch.

00:40:45   There's other stuff you could probably do with that too.

00:40:47   So that's interesting and you know but I get it that you've got a fixed position on a wrist

00:40:53   and you've got to infer you've got to measure lots of stuff using a very limited amount

00:40:58   of space that's in a very particular part of the body and that's a hard problem.

00:41:03   I get it.

00:41:04   They also want to include something for blood sugar sensing.

00:41:09   This isn't an Apple's working on but is years away.

00:41:12   That seems really complicated.

00:41:15   We heard about this one of these times we've been talking about prospective Apple watch

00:41:19   features somebody was saying about how you know there is a lot of research going into

00:41:23   blood sugar sensors for diabetics and you know the technology is improving but you know

00:41:30   to compact all of that down into something that you wear on your wrist is a that's a

00:41:35   hard problem like it's a hard problem for dedicated blood sugar monitors for diabetics

00:41:41   to solve that stand alone let alone a hard problem to put in an Apple watch.

00:41:46   So but I get the appeal right?

00:41:48   I mean the Apple look Apple wants this thing to be a tricorder like from Star Trek Apple

00:41:53   wants the Apple watch to sit on your wrist and know everything it can possibly know about

00:41:58   your health and the challenge with that is that it is sitting on the back of your wrist

00:42:04   and that's not necessarily the best place to get all of collect all that data and that

00:42:11   is why there will probably be other accessories.

00:42:17   We talked at one point I think we talked about AirPods as a potential sensor you know for

00:42:25   Apple health and I was thinking about that regarding this story because you could argue

00:42:32   like Apple's gate detection that it's talking about doing an iOS 15 that's an Apple that's

00:42:38   an iPhone feature right and I think there's something to that that it's like it's in your

00:42:42   pocket and and there's detection that it can do there that is interesting and and AirPods

00:42:48   I think about like it wouldn't surprise me at all if at some point down the road Apple

00:42:54   started looking at AirPods as another sensor surface for Apple watch and if you don't have

00:43:00   Apple watch maybe it logs that data to your iPhone and it does something with it but like

00:43:04   it's really starting to think of all of its products that touch your body as being surfaces

00:43:11   that could be used to detect personal medical data and I think that's going to continue

00:43:15   I think that anything that Apple does if they make glasses and that they're on your temples

00:43:20   they're going to be like oh well we're touching the temples we're touching their forehead

00:43:23   we can learn things there too because I think ultimately that's what Apple wants is be even

00:43:27   beyond the Apple watch is to find ways to measure things about your body and then use

00:43:33   intelligence on device to help you with whatever you know they can help you with.

00:43:40   I think they had such success with the Apple watch and its health application that it will

00:43:47   be wild for them to not put that into more products if they can.

00:43:52   Especially if there's an application for it if they're like oh if only oh there's this

00:43:55   feature we want to add to the Apple watch and we just can't do it because the wrist

00:43:58   is a terrible place for it but you know what a good place to measure somebody's temperature

00:44:02   is inside their ear they're like get the get the AirPods people on the phone we're gonna

00:44:07   put a thermometer in the AirPods and the AirPod and that's that's another example of Apple

00:44:13   the way Apple is run Apple thinking kind of holistically about its products where if you

00:44:17   were just making wireless earbuds you would not put a temperature sensor in them but if

00:44:22   you're Apple you're thinking big picture which is ah the Apple watch could really use the

00:44:27   temperature sensor from the AirPods.

00:44:30   There's also an extreme sports option of the Apple watch plan for 2022 along with a new

00:44:36   SE there have previously been a rumor about a more rugged Apple watch and I guess that's

00:44:42   this.

00:44:44   What do you think about how this would be branded like do you think that this would

00:44:48   be a separate watch like the SE or could it be like a part of like series 8 and you know

00:44:54   they have two?

00:44:55   My feeling is that this is the equivalent of materials options that this is the equivalent

00:45:01   of offering it in stainless steel or titanium right is that they'll offer a ruggedized option

00:45:08   of it was just like a rubber version of the Apple watch yeah I mean I I don't I don't

00:45:14   think that's beyond the realm of possibility right basically you take the the core of the

00:45:20   Apple watch but you put it in something different this would probably also you know this would

00:45:24   break band compatibility it would probably have an integrated band right and just be

00:45:28   this super rugged kind of g-shocks thing but that's okay right like I think I think that

00:45:34   is a great new territory for Apple watch to go is is specializing it like this and that

00:45:42   would be how I'd argue you know you roll it out is like literally you're now going to

00:45:46   make an Apple watch extreme or whatever version of your current Apple watch just like you

00:45:51   make a titanium version or a stainless steel version and you buy it and you get it and

00:45:54   it comes in that form and it's just it's the same watch bits but the container is made

00:46:01   of different material and up to now the different material has been the same shape just different

00:46:07   metals but it would be very I don't want to say very easy but you could see how it would

00:46:13   be a parallel development for them to to take this so that would be my guess is that if

00:46:18   they want to do a sport like an extreme sport rugged version of the Apple watch that this

00:46:23   is what it would be and maybe they also vary the glass right they vary the glass on the

00:46:27   top so that would be another thing where they would probably put the you know the most rugged

00:46:34   glass on top of it and then they'd have the ruggedized container for it but ultimately

00:46:38   I think it would still be a series seven.

00:46:41   So while we're talking about the watch Jon Prosser had a report in late May that there

00:46:48   is some more details in the design and that the Apple watch would be the next Apple product

00:46:54   to feature a flat edge design with the possibility of a green Apple watch but potentially more

00:47:02   colors like the iMac.

00:47:05   What do you think of flat edge coming to that product as well?

00:47:10   I don't I don't know I mean the Apple watch design hasn't changed at all in the what seven

00:47:17   years yeah like they kind of the general case design you know all they did was change the

00:47:22   way the screen looked I suppose.

00:47:25   Right but like it's maintained all compatibility and it looks the same that you look at the

00:47:30   original Apple watch and you look at the current Apple watch and like it's Apple watch.

00:47:35   Two arguments there right one is it's old time for something new the other argument

00:47:42   is it is iconic at this point it is recognizably what an Apple watch looks like and when you

00:47:50   see one you go up Apple watch like every time I'm watching a TV show or something like their

00:47:56   Apple watch there it is right it's just you can you can see it and you know it and that

00:48:02   has power so I don't I don't know also look I'm not a watch person so I don't know about

00:48:12   there there's so many different kinds of watch design out there maybe a iPhone and iPad and

00:48:19   you know and new I mean they're all going in that direction right new IMAX all that

00:48:22   though the flat sides thing maybe that would look great on a watch and if so it would certainly

00:48:29   fit into the sort of design family of Apple's products maybe it wouldn't I mean it's a round

00:48:36   rekt right like it would be what would it look like if it was if it was shaped differently

00:48:41   what would it feel like on your wrist to have kind of a flat a flat side instead of a little

00:48:46   curvy side I don't know it's probably beyond my capacity as somebody who is not up on watch

00:48:54   design I'm open to the idea that they would change the Apple watch design I think at some

00:48:58   point they probably have to evolve it but I also think like they've come this far establishing

00:49:05   that Apple watch looks like this and that there's a danger in going away from it at

00:49:10   this point what do you think you care about watches yeah I think flat edges is fine you

00:49:16   know like the watch I'm wearing today I mean it's round the face is round but it's the

00:49:20   way the case attaches to the back of it is a right angle you know and so that that's

00:49:25   I think that's perfectly fine I think it's needed I think that the Apple watch has looked

00:49:30   too similar for too long and I think they need to start changing the design up a bit

00:49:35   I mean I stand by the fact and still want a round Apple watch because I just don't like

00:49:40   the the square like rectangular shape anyway like I just prefer a round I would prefer

00:49:44   a round shape I would like to see them changing a little bit more about what the Apple watch

00:49:51   looks like rather than just the bands that you attach to it or the color of the cases

00:49:56   I think it's I think it's time for some change there personally and I know what I feel about

00:50:01   you know flat edge design if they're going to make it look like a flat edge from an Apple

00:50:06   product it could be kind of cool if they do like some of the shinier finishes that they've

00:50:11   had on some of the pro phones could be interesting I'd be intrigued to see what they would do

00:50:16   with it could it make it potentially look too much like computer maybe but I would like

00:50:22   to see them do something a little bit more for me personally the kind of like rounded

00:50:29   design on the Apple watch it kind of feels old now in a way that I don't find appealing

00:50:35   I think that's I think that's the give and take and honestly I think that there is an

00:50:40   interesting dilemma for Apple because I think it does provide them with familiarity that's

00:50:47   actually powerful for a lot of users and for potential buyers but it's also been around

00:50:54   a long time and so other people are going to have a reaction like you have which is

00:50:58   it's boring and it's old and give me something new I'm not sure where Apple watches and its

00:51:03   life cycle in terms of people who look at it like you do versus people who look at it

00:51:09   and there's value in having it be recognizable and familiar are they building you know so

00:51:15   many new buyers that that's more important to them is sort of like or or would they have

00:51:20   a huge you know sales boost by offering it in a different different shape there's also

00:51:25   the question of like would they do would they do both I have a hard time believing that

00:51:30   they would offer the same watch and like two styles but I just said that they could do

00:51:34   an extreme sports version so you know could they do actually two different case styles

00:51:41   of the same model watch that's a possibility it seems unlikely but you know never say never

00:51:48   it's funny that you mentioned the circular face when you earlier mentioned like what

00:51:54   do you think about the display borders changing and would they change the screen size I feel

00:51:58   like there's so much development challenge in in dealing with the screen size and it's

00:52:05   not just app developers like app developers are going to figure it out but it's also Apple's

00:52:09   own software development where every time you change the screen size you have to support

00:52:13   like when they change the screen size like they left a whole bunch of watch faces that

00:52:18   they had designed for the smaller screen size basically behind and have not updated them

00:52:22   and they're like oh well that's just where those are old and they use the old stuff and

00:52:27   now we're like they couldn't be bothered to update all their faces to be on the new screen

00:52:31   size right like so it's a challenge for Apple when they change the screen size which is

00:52:36   why what I think is I would never change the screen size on incrementally on the existing

00:52:45   screen template I would save that I would I would save I would keep my gunpowder dry

00:52:51   because a circular display is really interesting and would require a lot of work to support

00:52:58   yeah you got to start over yeah so if you're if you're gonna go there you gotta lay the

00:53:04   foundation for that and then you're gonna put in a lot of work to go there and and I

00:53:10   think I actually think they will go there eventually because how could you not the circular

00:53:17   you know circular watch face is such a classic and common kind of thing especially when it's

00:53:23   not like Apple don't try their best to make their watch faces look like real watches they

00:53:29   try very hard almost to a fault sometimes of making their computer watch look like an

00:53:34   analog watch right so why not go the last step yeah so I'm not saying that that's you

00:53:41   know I think that we have seen no reports that Apple is is readying a circular Apple

00:53:47   watch but I I think it's inevitable I think it'll be a few years and I think that they

00:53:51   will they will do it when they're they feel ready to offer a circular version of you know

00:54:00   everything they do and guidelines for developers about how to deal with a non rectangular screen

00:54:06   and all that but I think in the short run you know I think it's gonna be a fun question

00:54:12   because I do I see both sides I see the desire to make something that looks new and also

00:54:17   the advantages of having something that looks familiar in a new product category yeah this

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00:56:15   our thanks to Squarespace for the continued support of upgrade and relay FM so Apple has

00:56:21   announced their returning to work plan for its employees they're doing three day weeks

00:56:29   in the office starting in September with this hybrid approach running until 2022 at the

00:56:35   earliest which is only three months if they can in January but it will be for review potentially

00:56:40   to last longer they're going to see how it goes the set days in the office for people

00:56:45   at Apple Park and probably in some of their other locations is Monday Tuesday and Thursday

00:56:51   with the option to work from home on Wednesdays and Fridays you can go into the office if

00:56:56   you want to but you don't have to employees also get the option for two full weeks of

00:57:02   at home working per year what did you think of this plan when you heard it

00:57:06   I honestly I was disappointed by it okay I I'm gonna do all the disclaimers here up front

00:57:15   I work in my own garage now but I worked for several decades at an office with where I

00:57:22   commuted every day so I've and I hired people and I hired remote people and I hired people

00:57:28   in the office like I've seen all the sides of it and I want to say that there are I I

00:57:34   do not think that every job can be remote I don't believe that I am sure that there

00:57:42   are lots of jobs at Apple that really do require people being in the office for various reasons

00:57:49   right there what the pandemic taught us though is that there are certainly some jobs that

00:57:54   don't and it's not just the ones where it's obvious that that you don't need to be in

00:58:01   an office but the corporate culture demands that you would be but also what we learned

00:58:06   with the pandemic is that there are some jobs that seemed like they couldn't possibly be

00:58:12   done remotely that could be done remotely I'm reminded of the fact that the entertainment

00:58:20   industry discovered that all sorts of video editors and VFX artists could literally do

00:58:27   their jobs from their house which you know I think culturally there was like well the

00:58:32   computers and the power you know all that stuff and the the size of the files and like

00:58:36   all that stuff you just have to be in the office and some of that was a legacy of back

00:58:42   when computers weren't as powerful and network connections weren't as fast and some of it

00:58:48   was that they just hadn't tried it but I know for a fact that a lot of people in that industry

00:58:53   made it work during the pandemic not necessarily doing all of their renders and edits on their

00:58:58   own computers at home but using remote access software to control a powerful computer in

00:59:04   a data center or at the office somewhere and sitting at home and doing the work remotely

00:59:09   and that they made that work just fine so like there's a bunch of different levels here

00:59:13   there's the stuff that probably should have been remotable from the beginning and wasn't

00:59:17   there's the stuff that we thought wasn't possible that we found out it was and then there's

00:59:21   the stuff that maybe we managed to muddle through but we lost something it was less

00:59:26   efficient you know it wasn't as good I think all those things exist so the problem I have

00:59:33   and again I don't I don't work at Apple and I also don't know the purpose of Tim Cook's

00:59:37   message Tim Cook's message may indeed be the base model message which is everybody at Apple

00:59:44   gets this but individual groups beyond this can decide policies like it doesn't seem like

00:59:51   that's the case yeah so here's this is the challenge is well no there's a there's a there's

00:59:56   some weaseling in there right there's some weaseling where it's like individual groups

00:59:59   blah blah blah right like I think there is definitely because because the truth is Apple

01:00:04   does have remote employees they do they do they just are the exception and right so like

01:00:13   there's a question of like how blanket is this statement but why I was disappointed

01:00:17   with it is not I think it's great that Tim Cook is in this memo saying we get that there's

01:00:24   a lot of benefit to not just working from home if you want to again also something I

01:00:29   should say up front not everybody is built for working at home either mentally like they're

01:00:34   just they need to focus better their physical workspace at home like you have to have a

01:00:39   physical workspace at home that makes sense and a lot of people don't have that so having

01:00:46   to be an option to work from home I think is good it's not possible to say that one

01:00:50   is better than the other it isn't a thing that you can just say right yeah so but what

01:00:57   he is saying is we recognize that a lot of you have found value in this and and a lot

01:01:01   of you have commutes and you have found a better set of sort of like it's better for

01:01:07   your life and better for your health to not be commuting every single day so we're gonna

01:01:12   we're gonna throw a couple of days on the pile and say you don't have to come in those

01:01:15   days plus we're gonna give you a little work from home allowance which you know I I use

01:01:20   that I I could work from home whenever I chose essentially when I was working at IDG and

01:01:25   I you know I didn't work from home all the time I couldn't do my job that way but there

01:01:30   were times when I was working on something and I realized I needed to just be heads down

01:01:34   on this thing for a day or two and I would do work from home and it was great so I think

01:01:38   that when he says a couple of weeks of working from home available as a benefit essentially

01:01:44   that that's good so I get what this is the disappointment I have is that not every job

01:01:50   needs to be the old-style job of you've got to come into an office and sit I and I'm disappointed

01:01:57   because I would have hoped that Apple learned over the last year that some of their corporate

01:02:04   culture that is you have to be in the room we're gonna bump up against each other in

01:02:09   the hallways and brilliant things are gonna happen that sort of serendipity fantasy that

01:02:14   I believe is a fantasy because I think serendipity can happen in all sorts of places it can happen

01:02:18   in slack channels it can happen in video calls and it can happen at the lunch room you know

01:02:23   counter when you're getting some coffee and you bump into somebody I think there's a little

01:02:27   bit of fantasy there I had hoped that the last year would have instructed Apple on the

01:02:33   fact that some of its insistence on that one way of working which is being an office chair

01:02:39   every day or three days a week is not necessary and that some jobs and some groups don't need

01:02:47   to be that way now I'm also not saying that companies can't tell their employees what

01:02:51   to do they can the employees recourse is to find another job what I am saying though is

01:02:56   that if Apple approaches this in in this with this philosophy and this culture that comes

01:03:04   from Steve Jobs which is everybody's got to be in Cupertino essentially and and there they

01:03:10   have other offices too but you get my point everybody's got to be in in the office in Cupertino

01:03:15   what you're going to do if you're Apple is you're going to lose talent because some talents

01:03:19   not going to want to live in the Bay Area is not going to want to live with the cost

01:03:22   of living in the South Bay is not want to do it is not going to want to do an extreme

01:03:25   commute in order to afford a place to live it's not going to move uproot their family

01:03:29   or live in a tiny house with a long commute in order to work at Apple and that's Apple's

01:03:35   decision but I will say as somebody who hired remote people I got way way better people

01:03:41   by willing be willing to hire by being willing to hire somebody who was not present and they

01:03:48   did great work not every job can be that but some can so my my disappointment to this memo

01:03:53   is more that it feels very one-size-fits-all and it doesn't seem to have learned the lesson

01:03:59   that some jobs don't need to have everybody working in the office all the time because

01:04:05   this memo is very much about for the people who are in the office all the time you don't

01:04:12   have to be in the office a couple of days a week and that addresses something and is

01:04:17   nice actually but there's other parts that I'm like hmm yeah but I know for a fact that

01:04:23   there are also jobs within Apple that are much more like what I used to do where we

01:04:29   had a really great team and half our team was not ever in the office except for like

01:04:34   special events or off-sites or things and it was great and and you've learned presumably

01:04:41   over the last year what groups those are and yet I didn't it's not in this memo it doesn't

01:04:47   mean it's not happening but I didn't see in this some recognition that maybe that part

01:04:54   of this should be a lesson learned that maybe there are some groups within Apple that it

01:04:59   doesn't make sense to hire everybody and force them to be in Cupertino because it's really

01:05:04   expensive in Cupertino and a lot of talented people aren't going to move and maybe you

01:05:08   could hire somebody somewhere else and make them not move and see them a couple of times

01:05:13   a year which I am a believer in especially you know the younger your workforce is the

01:05:18   more online they are the more capable they are the more understanding they are of you

01:05:23   know of Slack and Zoom meetings and stuff like that now it's not for everybody it's

01:05:27   not for every group so much of the conversation about this is well in my whatever or in this

01:05:34   experience I had and like I just want to say that every group is different but I will also

01:05:40   say that I have seen firsthand and through people I know that Apple's corporate culture

01:05:47   of everybody needs to be here is still pretty strong and it leads to them having these some

01:05:54   jobs and groups that everybody has to be in the office even if all they're doing is sitting

01:06:03   at their desk looking at a screen and they could do that from anywhere and I had hoped

01:06:07   they had learned more of a lesson from it this memo doesn't suggest that they did perhaps

01:06:13   those individual groups did and if so then good because they should because I would imagine

01:06:21   that Apple is going to lose talent and this was true before the pandemic but it's going

01:06:26   to accelerate Apple's going to lose some talent because lots of people don't want to live

01:06:32   in Silicon Valley and everything that comes with moving to and living in and commuting

01:06:38   through Silicon Valley.

01:06:39   So The Verge obtained an internal letter sent to Apple management that detailed that the

01:06:45   steps that they had taken were not enough for many employees and that the company's

01:06:49   not being flexible enough and they want the policy to be rethought.

01:06:54   Now that many people have obviously realized that permanent work from home not only works

01:07:00   better for them at work but also allows them to kind of better balance the lives that they

01:07:04   want to live they want that especially when they're now looking at other companies in

01:07:10   the Bay Area tech scene who are allowing like permanent work from home schedules or have

01:07:17   more flexible policy.

01:07:18   I will just say like I was surprised by the the fact that they did have a mixed approach

01:07:23   I kind of expected them to either say like we're going back to exactly how we are or

01:07:27   it was going to be more flexible than this like I was surprised that they did that two

01:07:31   day a week thing.

01:07:32   The two weeks work from home policy thing just seems so small it's pointless to me like

01:07:36   I why two weeks like what is that?

01:07:40   And that's what makes me raise an eyebrow at the whole memo because it it it comes across

01:07:45   a bit as again this is for everybody and yet you know it isn't like it can't be like I

01:07:52   would imagine that the way you really want this to work is you're a manager you've got

01:07:57   an employee they're mostly not in the office they do great work I don't care you've got

01:08:01   another employee when they're working from home their productivity drops I do care they

01:08:06   need to come in right like that's that's how it should work instead of it being like well

01:08:10   you've got two weeks of not of of staycation right like it's weird right you should you

01:08:15   should depending on what you're doing you should have unlimited work from home or no

01:08:19   work from home it really just depends on what the job is and who the person is.

01:08:23   So this this letter basically was coming from a large group of people inside of the company

01:08:29   who now feel that the approach for them is not that this stance of being at work is best

01:08:35   kind of works for them kind of left them feeling a little alienated and this letter that was

01:08:41   kind of circulated internally and sent to Apple management it asks for a bunch of things

01:08:47   some of them are that work from home decisions should be the responsibility of each team

01:08:51   rather than a company-wide mandate so this is what I was saying earlier right like I

01:08:55   agree with you because we know it to be true that there are some people that work from

01:08:59   home but it seems like maybe the teams that are allowed to make that decision might be

01:09:03   smaller than it could be and they're also asking for a company-wide survey to be taken

01:09:09   so they can actually get the understanding of the group at large and that more consideration

01:09:15   should be taken for those who are now less able to return to an office environment.

01:09:20   Well what and what they're talking about here in this in this letter which which people

01:09:26   who listen to this probably have seen it John Gruber basically demolished this in a post

01:09:31   that he made that I thought was unfortunate it's one of the least favorite things he's

01:09:35   ever written for me like I think it was a real unfortunate embarrassing post where he

01:09:40   basically seems to be defending the big the giant company against their mean old employees

01:09:47   which is I think the wrong bad take it's a bad take but I will I will grant this memo

01:09:53   is bad and embarrassing the way it's written is bad it's it's it's bad but I will say this

01:10:01   changing corporate culture is really hard and that's what basically they're asking for

01:10:07   is they're saying you know hey pandemic was a thing and now that we're back can we change

01:10:10   the corporate culture and I actually kind of think that it's hard to change corporate

01:10:15   culture while you're away right you're just trying to hold it together and now this is

01:10:20   sort of like Tim Cook's reopening memo which is let's come back and we learn some things

01:10:24   and and I absolutely understand the idea that this seems more of a blanket decision than

01:10:29   maybe it should be and that there are a bunch of groups that really should be given license

01:10:32   here's the thing people in charge of groups are going to look at Tim Cook's memo as permission

01:10:38   to do it business as usual with this very slight variation very very slight variation

01:10:45   and that is not a recipe to reconsider or change corporate culture and court changing

01:10:49   corporate culture is already so brutally hard and I say this as somebody who spent years

01:10:54   trying to haul a print magazine culture onto the web right like and everybody can agree

01:11:01   but you know what it's not just about the people it's about the structure and it's about

01:11:05   how people feel they're valued and it's about how it's like permeates an organization makes

01:11:12   it very hard to change even Apple right like that was Steve Jobs's greatest trick arguably

01:11:17   when he came back was he had to not just build products he had to change the culture and

01:11:22   they and build ways to reinforce the corporate culture like Apple University so I think what's

01:11:30   going to the employee frustration that you see in this memo is is they're saying we think

01:11:37   the pandemic has taught us an important lesson about how some of Apple's assumed from Steve

01:11:43   Jobs corporate culture decisions aren't accurate and we would like management to really take

01:11:51   a good look at what's best for the company and the workers of the company in terms of

01:11:59   how work is is is done because the truth is not all the parts of Apple really need to

01:12:05   go back to being the way that they were that we've learned that we can do this job in a

01:12:09   very different way and I would argue it's not just about the employees wanting to not

01:12:15   come back into work or not not have a commute or you know have to come back home from Lake

01:12:19   Tahoe where they've been living for the last year but it's also about Apple being able

01:12:24   to hire a much broader group of people because they could hire somebody anywhere for those

01:12:30   certain jobs where they can do that but I think there's just a disappointment here of

01:12:35   of an opportunity to revisit the corporate culture not even to necessarily to tear it

01:12:39   up but to revisit it in a moment where there's enough that's gone on that you might actually

01:12:45   be able to affect a little bit of change and say oh you know when Steve Jobs said that

01:12:50   James Thompson had to move from Ireland to Cupertino or he couldn't continue working

01:12:55   on the Finder team even though he'd been working on the Finder team just fine from Cork maybe

01:13:00   that was not so great and Apple missed out on not having James involved as one of their

01:13:04   developers for the last 20 years because he's a very talented developer and the only thing

01:13:09   that was against him was that he wasn't going to move to California so maybe this is a good

01:13:14   opportunity for us to say let's rethink things a little bit let's analyze this and determine

01:13:20   where our culture maybe is off a little bit and the Tim Cook memo can be seen by them

01:13:26   at least as being a restatement of the status quo and say we're not going to revisit this

01:13:32   not in the way you think we're not going to revisit this fundamentally. Fundamentally

01:13:36   if App Store editorial which is just people writing and editing articles about apps has

01:13:43   to be every day in a building in Cupertino like that doesn't make sense that's pretty

01:13:49   much what we used to do at IDG and we had people all over the country in the world like

01:13:56   maybe that's not great maybe we should rethink it maybe we should at least consider it so

01:14:01   I don't love the memo there's a whole lot of you know we formally request that stuff

01:14:07   in them it's just it's such a bad bit of bureaucracy and it's eye-rolling but I totally get the

01:14:13   motivation behind it which is people who love Apple and work at Apple and have found that

01:14:19   they find that Apple is better with some of the lessons learned in the pandemic and they're

01:14:26   feeling that this memo basically tosses away all those lessons in order to go back to something

01:14:31   as close to the old way as possible and I totally understand being disappointed by that.

01:14:35   So I want to build on something that you said earlier and also like in referencing something

01:14:42   that John put in his article which is that companies are not democracies right so that

01:14:48   this idea that if people are unhappy about something they can request it but they can't

01:14:54   force a change and I mean I agree with that like companies are not democracies I mean

01:14:59   they are companies you know you don't get paid to be a part of a democracy right but

01:15:07   I think it is up to the leaders of a company like a democracy to decide how much they want

01:15:12   to listen to the people within it like and if you have thousands of people telling you

01:15:17   something maybe listen because they might have a point you can choose not to agree right

01:15:22   it's fine that's your decision but then you need to be comfortable living with that decision

01:15:27   and accepting potential ramifications of it and this idea of democracy seemed interesting

01:15:32   to me because I think what you can draw from here if we're going to get metaphorical with

01:15:37   it is a parallel to another system of power so authoritarian governments they can allow

01:15:46   people to freely leave right it's not necessarily the same as dictatorship but it's like we're

01:15:51   going to tell you what to do and you have to do it and what happens in a lot of author

01:15:57   authoritarian government regimes is a huge talent drain of young and educated people

01:16:05   who decide that they do not want to live in that country they're going to go somewhere

01:16:09   else and they're going to try and start a life outside yeah and that's what I that's

01:16:15   what I mean when I say that Apple Apple has risk here too like yeah a lot of a lot of

01:16:19   people including in groupers post where he's basically punching down at employees and defending

01:16:23   the big company are saying look you signed up to work at Apple you knew these were the

01:16:27   rules so live with it it's like there's truth in that right like they want to make a change

01:16:33   from the inside but it is true also that they signed up for it and that if their employer

01:16:41   tells them it's too bad this is the way it's going to be they either need to you know like

01:16:46   it or leave the big picture is if you've got really talented people and they're going to

01:16:54   leave that's not great and then right behind that is who do you replace them with and now

01:17:00   you're and when you grow who are you going to hire and now you're dealing with a post-pandemic

01:17:05   workforce that is going to look less encouragingly on your insistence that people work people

01:17:14   move to the Bay Area and three times a week commute in to an office in the South Bay in

01:17:19   order to do the job and that means you're going to hire you're you're you've already

01:17:23   cut yourself off from people who are never going to move to the Bay Area but now you there's

01:17:28   a whole new strata of talented people and keep in mind that a lot of these people are

01:17:33   hiring they are very talented tech workers they got lots of options and now so many other

01:17:39   tech companies are going partially or fully virtual that the it becomes even harder for

01:17:45   Apple to hire and especially to hire good people and then the next step is then the

01:17:50   rubber meets the road and Apple somebody at Apple is like oh I want to hire this this

01:17:55   person over here and she's great but she's not going to move from South Dakota but she's

01:18:01   really great and her job doesn't really need to be here and we've got slack and it'll be

01:18:05   fine and we got you know Cisco meetings and it'll be fine and I want to hire her and what

01:18:10   do they do that's the other way this could go is that Apple's corporate culture changes

01:18:15   from the bottom up which is at the top Tim Cook's like we're all coming back to work

01:18:20   and at the bottom they're like I I have to hire this person because they're very talented

01:18:24   and my other options are not as good but this person can't is not going to come here and

01:18:28   they have no leverage over that person I mean they've got limited leverage over that person

01:18:32   some people will move some people won't and it's like do you want to hire that talented

01:18:36   person or do you want to hire this less talented person or you found nobody else who is as

01:18:40   good that's going to be hard for them too so like this is it cuts both ways but you

01:18:46   know this isn't just about oh these these employees are spoiled and they signed up for

01:18:50   this so they need to suck it up it's also if you look at it from Apple's perspective

01:18:56   a brain drain I mean you described it the people leaving a country because that country

01:19:00   is not conducive to what they want to do with their lives that's bad and and the pandemic

01:19:06   has not made that less of an issue for Apple that it already was an issue but it has not

01:19:11   made it less of an issue for Apple it's made it more of an issue for Apple and that's about

01:19:15   retention and about hiring we know all sorts of people who used to work at Apple and they

01:19:21   left and they moved somewhere else and they're very happy right like and that's part of the

01:19:26   brain drain I took you talk to people at Apple and some of it is about it's a grind it's

01:19:29   hard work it's brilliant you know it's very rewarding but it's also hard work you also

01:19:34   talk to some people who are like I just had I just couldn't stay in California anymore

01:19:37   I couldn't stay in the Bay Area anymore and and that's that's you're you're risking more

01:19:42   of that and believe it or not Apple acts like it is the the pinnacle the big leagues and

01:19:49   that you have to work at Apple and it's like there is some truth to that but also there

01:19:54   are a lot of people in a lot of jobs at Apple whether that's not true right it's like if

01:20:00   you're designing Macs or iPhones or you know anything like in the in the core it's probably

01:20:07   true and I get it but there's also a bunch of other stuff that that is is not true and

01:20:12   and so to see people who work at Apple or who used to work at Apple and made you see

01:20:16   a lot of this to made sacrifices like Michael Gartenberg the analyst was pretty much outspoken

01:20:22   about this like Gruber was and you know but I know for a fact like he took a job at Apple

01:20:26   he had to move his whole life was in New Jersey he had to move to California and he lived in

01:20:30   California for as long as he worked at Apple and the moment he left Apple he moved back

01:20:33   to New Jersey and like I can see from that person's perspective saying look I sacrificed

01:20:38   in order to work at Apple why why can't you it's like fair enough but from Apple's perspective

01:20:44   I'm saying that might be kind of dumb to force everybody who wants to work there to sacrifice

01:20:50   like that for jobs footnote for jobs that probably don't require it some do some don't

01:20:58   this episode is brought to you by public sector future from Microsoft I love finding new podcasts

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01:21:09   check out public sector future it discusses real stories from public sector leaders who

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01:21:50   which speech there's tons of interesting show topics including mixed reality rules as code

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01:22:02   as well so I checked out an episode with Mark polyface who is a professor of computer science

01:22:08   at ETH Zurich and the director of science at Microsoft and this one was all focused

01:22:14   on mixed reality and it was super interesting to see like to hear about how what we see

01:22:19   currently is a are on our phones is like just this tiny step in the overall future of this

01:22:24   technology it was really interesting to hear someone who is deep in this stuff all the

01:22:29   time and how they think about it as like yeah we can only see if it's so much right now

01:22:33   and there's so much more to grow from this and they were talking about how mixed reality

01:22:39   devices can be utilized for tasks like showing instructions overlaid right in front of you

01:22:45   and how this can help break down super complicated things and they were talking about how people

01:22:50   in like the medical sector in the UK have been using that during current during coronavirus

01:22:54   like a doctor can basically instruct multiple juniors and multiple nurses at the same time

01:23:01   by giving instructions because they can see them in mixed in like mixed reality instead

01:23:05   of needing to be in all these places it was really fascinating stuff so go and listen

01:23:10   to it yourself go just search for public sector future wherever you get your podcasts as public

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01:23:23   Let's do some hashtag ask upgrade questions.

01:23:28   First one comes from Zach and Zach wants to know how much value have you as non-developers

01:23:32   gotten from WWDC sessions this but this year is there any that you would recommend to people

01:23:38   to check out?

01:23:40   I'm going to point people to the WWDC page at six colors where we we watch you did a

01:23:48   lot this year it was really cool I enjoyed it brought in Stephen Hackett to join me and

01:23:54   Dan we watched all the sessions that we felt had value to people who are not developers

01:23:58   to glean things from them and we wrote those up and those are all in those posts from six

01:24:04   colors so I would recommend starting there and if any of those things seem worth diving

01:24:10   into further then go find those sessions and dive in but we did that work for you in in

01:24:16   terms of if you're not a developer we tried to watch all this stuff and glean what we

01:24:21   could from it.

01:24:23   Yeah I mean for me any sessions that I did watch I typically would just watch the first

01:24:28   kind of half because then the code stuff begins and it's too much for me.

01:24:32   It's a lesson I learned in the 90s actually when I started going to WWDC is as soon as

01:24:36   the code comes out you get out.

01:24:38   Run!

01:24:39   Gone.

01:24:40   Gone.

01:24:41   I used to be physically leave the room and now it's just close that window and and move

01:24:45   to the next session but yeah.

01:24:47   I think the one I enjoyed the most personally was shortcuts for Mac OS it was just it's

01:24:51   really interesting.

01:24:53   It's a great session.

01:24:54   I'll tell you the one that I thought was brilliant and entertaining is called discover built-in

01:25:01   sound classification in sound analysis you know because it's got an amazing demo it is

01:25:05   literally using machine learning sound analysis to every sound that gets made in the room

01:25:13   it recognizes what it is and like he's talking and it says voice and he turns on music and

01:25:17   it says music and you're like oh well that's cool it can tell the difference between voice

01:25:20   and music and then but then the drums come in and it's a guitar and then it shows guitar

01:25:25   and then the drums come in and then it shows that it's recognizing the drums and then the

01:25:28   vocal comes in and it comes in with singing and like it knows the details of what's in

01:25:32   the music and then he turns that off and you know he he pours himself some tea and it it

01:25:40   recognizes the sound of the water pouring or the tea pouring and then when he's when

01:25:44   he puts in some sugar and clinks against the glass it recognizes the glass clinking and

01:25:50   I sat there thinking this is amazing it has great accessibility possibilities and also

01:25:55   they showed there's a great demo of it running on shortcuts on the Mac with a folder full

01:25:59   of videos and basically this shortcut says take this folder full of videos and find a

01:26:08   clip that contains the sound of a cowbell it's wild and he pressed the button and it

01:26:14   goes bloop here's the file and that file is one of the presenters roller skating while

01:26:19   playing the cowbell which is also hilarious so that was my that was my most entertaining

01:26:24   session and you know you're not going to probably write an app that uses the sound analysis

01:26:29   APIs but that's okay it was a really really fun session so I like that yeah that was a

01:26:38   the screenshot that you put in your post it was really fun I'll include a link in the

01:26:41   show notes to the six colors right up on both of those which obviously will have links to

01:26:46   the session videos as well in case you want to check those out.

01:26:50   Brant wants to know Myke did you end up using a popsocket and not magsafe so far with your

01:26:56   iPhone 12 Pro Max the answer is yes I've stuck to magsafe on the phone itself no case the

01:27:04   entire time and I know that popsocket have magsafe compatible popsockets now but two

01:27:11   things one I'm fine with how I've been using it and not using magsafe it's not a problem

01:27:17   for me I still have all of my docks that have lightning connectors on them and my phone

01:27:20   goes great onto those and I've seen mixed reports of those magsafe the magnetic magsafe

01:27:31   is not working so well just straight onto the back of the glass of the phone like it's

01:27:35   better if you have them on a case right I don't want to wear a case which is the whole

01:27:39   point yep.

01:27:42   Buzz asks I'm planning on doing a clean install when I upgrade to a new MacBook Pro hopefully

01:27:47   not too far in the future what is the best thing for me to do to ensure that I don't

01:27:52   lose any files in the process?

01:27:56   Well I mean a clean install that's sort of what you're trying to do is lose your files

01:28:01   otherwise you should just use Time Machine or Migration Assistant right although you

01:28:07   can migrate I mean you migrate from a backup is a thing to do that's not quite a clean

01:28:11   install it's a clean install and then it puts back the files that it thinks you need that

01:28:15   would probably be my number one would be do a Time Machine backup wipe install and then

01:28:20   restore from the Time Machine backup that that by a Migration Assistant that does a

01:28:24   pretty good job of you know Apple is copying over the files that you that are yours that

01:28:30   are personal but not anything that the system doesn't need and so it will be cleaner it

01:28:38   will still migrate a bunch of old stuff that you could probably get rid of but short of

01:28:42   you know manually pruning your preferences folder and stuff I think that's probably the

01:28:45   safest way to do I just did that in fact with my my wife's MacBook Air it had a giant freak

01:28:51   out I had to reboot it from recovery it failed to reboot from recovery it went into internet

01:28:59   recovery and then it failed to update on internet recovery so I had to do a I had to do a special

01:29:06   recovery where it recovered to Big Sur which meant it went from Mojave to Big Sur and at

01:29:14   this point I basically I erased it and then installed Big Sur on it and she had a Time

01:29:20   Machine backup that runs every day so it was fine and I restored so I wiped it installed

01:29:27   Big Sur and then I migrated from the Time Machine backup and she got all her files back

01:29:31   she was on Big Sur and she had a log into some stuff and all that but basically lost

01:29:36   nothing that's the safest approach and I think that's good enough honestly I think that you

01:29:42   don't if all you're trying to avoid is sort of like an overlay update and you want to

01:29:47   start that from scratch that's the way to do it I mean I'm not really an authority on

01:29:50   this as such but I would choose use Migration Assistant like yeah I mean it Migration Assistant

01:29:58   works when you're moving from computer to computer but the Time Machine aspect of it

01:30:01   means it works if you're wiping so if you're upgrading to a new MacBook Pro you know use

01:30:08   Migration Assistant right like have one one device next to the other ideally like close

01:30:13   to each other or on Ethernet or something like that because you're gonna be transferring

01:30:16   a lot of files and the Migration Assistant will take what it needs and leave the rest

01:30:20   and that's the way and in my experience you don't lose stuff when you do that it's Migration

01:30:26   Assistant's gone really it's good it does a good job.

01:30:29   All right next up comes from Jimmy and Jimmy wants to know do you think Apple should support

01:30:35   dashboard style widgets on the Mac desktop next year?

01:30:39   Yes I oh here's the problem with widgets is I don't know what the right thing to do is

01:30:46   on the Mac for widgets like they're pointless in Notification Center I find because first

01:30:54   off I don't want to use Notification Center and second they're completely out of sight

01:30:57   and out of mind the whole point of widgets on iPad and iPhone is that they're right there

01:31:04   and you you know when you go to that screen you see them what's the equivalent of that

01:31:08   on the Mac I guess it's the desktop so yeah I feel like having a widget layer on the desktop

01:31:15   or hovering over the desktop would be nice because I do think out of sight out of mind

01:31:22   is a problem that's how I felt about dashboard too is some people love dashboard but I always

01:31:26   felt like I never thought to look at dashboard and the lance ability means that I can glance

01:31:31   and see it and not like hit a keyboard shortcut in order to see it so that would lead me to

01:31:36   believe that yeah there probably should be a visible layer that's just out you can call

01:31:40   it on the desktop but maybe it's floating you know and it can float at the top or float

01:31:44   at the bottom or however you want to float those things I think that would be pretty

01:31:48   good my other hesitation here is if Apple decides at some point here to go all the way

01:31:58   with iPad multitasking and do something that's more like a floating window system one of

01:32:07   the great unexplored questions is what's beneath the floating windows like is it just a wallpaper

01:32:17   is it a desktop do you see the like app icons back there or something that kind of doesn't

01:32:22   make sense but I say this because if you could attach an iPad to a big display and have a

01:32:30   like a wallpaper and a bunch of floating windows could you put widgets back on the background

01:32:38   too I don't know it and if you could this is a conversation that Apple today would probably

01:32:46   have about the Mac and the iPad together right which is like how do we want this to work

01:32:51   how do we want widgets to be presented on the desktop of a windowed interface because

01:32:56   we'll want to do it the same way in both places maybe and so that gives me a little hesitation

01:33:03   but in general I'm just gonna complexity aside yes I would like to be able to add widgets

01:33:09   on my Mac and see them without having to do a swipe or hit a keyboard shortcut that would

01:33:14   be nice I would love this because I don't put files on my desktop this is no judgment

01:33:22   I just don't do it I have a couple of folders that are there but you know one of them is

01:33:28   just an alias to another folder right and I don't really use them so my desktop on my

01:33:34   Mac is just nothing so why not put widgets there now so at least if I use the trackpad

01:33:41   gesture to show me my desktop I can get some information because right now it's just a

01:33:45   picture so I would love I would love to put widgets there personally I understand why

01:33:51   dashboard went away like dashboard had its time in the sun it was time for dashboard

01:33:56   to leave but now widgets are back baby big time right and so I want to have them in a

01:34:03   better way like to be used better on my Mac right it's now you know Apple has deemed my

01:34:09   iPhone on my iPad screen good enough for widgets what about my Mac home screen you know and

01:34:16   I'll throw in they could also make widgets available in the menu bar yeah little apps

01:34:22   another another Mac like option right like what if I have a weather widget put a little

01:34:25   weather icon in the menu bar and I click on it and I see the widget that would be a way

01:34:29   that you could do a Mac spin on it where maybe the weather bar is not an icon maybe you could

01:34:34   put the temperature up there or a little mini forecast up there in the menu bar and then

01:34:39   you click on it and you get the widget you could extend the widget interface to have

01:34:42   a menu bar component there are a bunch of things they could do but I agree I would like

01:34:47   them to do something because the only time I ever used dashboard widgets was using that

01:34:53   trick where you could like drag them out when you were in the middle of the transition you

01:34:58   like press the dashboard button to close it but you're already clicking and dragging there

01:35:02   was a way you could basically sneak them out of the dashboard layer and onto the desktop

01:35:05   layer and that's the only time I ever really use dashboard widgets because I never hit

01:35:10   the F key to get the dashboard to show I just out of sight out of mind with me so I don't

01:35:16   I don't want I don't want that and that's why I don't use widgets on the Mac today same

01:35:21   reason it's just I don't see them and I'm not I don't like notification center I don't

01:35:25   like that whole place over there I don't want to I don't want to see it I don't want to

01:35:28   go there last question comes from Starling do you think the improvements to Swift playgrounds

01:35:35   are a stepping stone for Xcode for iPad or do you think that Apple wants coding on the

01:35:40   iPad to stay somewhat limited to a simpler learning environment of playgrounds I think

01:35:46   the problem with coding on the iPad is that there are so many complexities in Xcode that

01:35:52   go back a long way and you have to have compilers you have to support all sorts of different

01:35:58   kinds of code you know C Objective C like there's lots of different stuff that goes

01:36:02   into Xcode Xcode is very complex and includes stuff that Apple would have to run on the

01:36:08   iPad that I'm not sure Apple wants to run on the iPad so I think anything is possible

01:36:18   my guess is that Apple wants to evolve Swift playgrounds into a full featured coding environment

01:36:27   on the iPad for the next generation of apps yeah when the time is right to say we're all

01:36:34   good with Swift and Swift UI now you know yeah I think I think well and you can do I

01:36:39   mean honestly they're sort of almost already there they will probably need to not call

01:36:42   it playgrounds anymore they'll probably need to actually call it something else but I think

01:36:48   Apple's goal with it is that it will become more common to write new apps just using Swift

01:36:55   and Swift UI and those can be done on the iPad but if you want the legacy of like using

01:37:03   the old stuff using Objective C using other stuff like that and having all of that weight

01:37:09   of Xcode I could see them just saying that's why you have a Mac that's over there but what

01:37:15   we're doing you know so they are they are arguably building their next generation app

01:37:20   development environment in public on the iPad that's this simplified environment that's

01:37:26   just using Swift I know that's frustrating to people who are who would like to be able

01:37:32   to use and unrealistic for a long time because there's going to be legacy code base that's

01:37:37   not using Swift so what do they do about that I don't know maybe they could go down that

01:37:43   path they just haven't yet I hope they do but I could see them just saying no you know

01:37:49   this is just for the future and it's for these idealized apps that are just in Swift and

01:37:54   that's it but you know they have the ability to do you know virtualization and they could

01:37:59   put you know they could put all the all the old stuff in a in a box that was locked down

01:38:04   and but you could still use it like they could do a lot of work and make Xcode work on the

01:38:09   iPad but I feel like that there's there's also a lot of security issues there it's a

01:38:13   complex system and I could see why they're hesitant to do that so you know I think it's

01:38:18   going to become more full-featured to answer Starling more full-featured but it's an open

01:38:24   question about whether Apple is content at being this sort of like Swift only environment

01:38:30   or whether they really have some goal to make it Xcode on the iPad and I think the more

01:38:38   they add to Swift playgrounds the less encouraged I am that they're actually going to do Xcode

01:38:42   for iPad if that makes sense because they're taking measures in their existing thing to

01:38:47   kind of do half of what you know of that and it seems like they're kind of blunting the

01:38:52   fact that the other thing is not there.

01:38:55   If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer on the show just send out a tweet

01:38:59   with the hashtag #AskUpgrade that's the name of the show or just use question mark ask

01:39:05   upgrade in the relay FM members discord. Jason would you like to tell listeners of upgrade

01:39:11   a little bit about another show here on relay FM?

01:39:16   Sure how about parallel I remember when Shelly Brisbane the host of parallel pitched parallel

01:39:23   to us it was in Austin Texas where she lives and we were there she was a regular guest

01:39:28   on the upgrade or not upgrade what was what was my other podcast called download.

01:39:33   Call quiet download okay.

01:39:35   Download she was a regular guest on the download podcast which is dead rip download anyway

01:39:41   so she did bring parallel to relay FM and I think you'll like it it is a tech podcast

01:39:46   but it also has accessibility sprinkles as Shelly puts it so the intersection of tech

01:39:53   and accessibility good show Shelly is great she's a pro and it's a good podcast you should

01:39:59   listen relay.fm/parallel or just search for parallel in your podcast app of choice.

01:40:05   I'd like to thank our sponsors for this week's episode that is the public sector future podcast

01:40:10   Squarespace and hello and of course thank you to the people who support us directly

01:40:16   with upgrade plus if you would like longer ad free versions of every episode of upgrade

01:40:21   just go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up right now if you'd like to find Jason

01:40:27   online you can go to sixcolors.com and he is @jsnell j s n e double l i am @imike i m y

01:40:35   k e oh hang on a second do you hear that Jason Snell sounds like the crashing of waves it

01:40:45   sounds like beach sounds wait is it the sound of summer why yes Jason Snell it's the summer

01:40:53   of fun see you next week everybody

01:40:57   [Music]

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