346: Float It Like a Hologram


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 346, and today's show is brought to you by Memberful,

00:00:15   Pingdom, and PDFPen from Smile. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hello,

00:00:20   Jason Snell. Hello, Myke Hurley. How are you? I am very well, my friend. How are you? Fine and dandy.

00:00:26   You are on secret assignment this week, which I'll mention because otherwise people will ask why Jason

00:00:32   sounds different, which happens every time. I'm in a slightly different place with a slightly

00:00:36   different microphone. Yes. I have a #SnellTalk question for you from John and John wants to

00:00:42   know, "Jason, did you ever have a conversation with Steve Jobs? If so, was there anything specific that

00:00:47   you took from his experience?" I talked to him once for on the phone as an interview for the 20th

00:00:55   anniversary of the Mac and what I took away from it is that Steve Jobs doesn't want to be interviewed.

00:01:00   Okay. Do you think that somebody put him in that room? He was unpleasant and he didn't want to be

00:01:07   there and he was on the phone with me for less than five minutes, I would say, and yeah, it was,

00:01:14   we spent months trying to get Apple to agree to do an interview with Steve for the 20th anniversary

00:01:19   and we had to have all sorts of conditions about Steve doesn't want to look back, Steve doesn't

00:01:24   want to talk about the past, Steve can't talk about the future and we're like, well, what is left to

00:01:29   talk about? And the answer was a very short interview. We ran almost every word he said in

00:01:34   the, on the interview in the magazine because he said so little that we had to make the most of it.

00:01:41   And I, when the conversation was over, I felt kind of like I'd been hit by a truck. It was like,

00:01:46   what just happened? But, uh, that was it. So yes, I got the distinct sense that he didn't want to be

00:01:53   there. Somebody had talked him into it, maybe Katie cotton, that it was worth doing. Um, and

00:01:58   he wasn't interested in talking about the past and he wanted to get out of there as quickly as

00:02:02   possible. There's something kind of funny about like, okay, Steve's gonna join you for this

00:02:08   interview, which is an anniversary celebration of the Mac, but he won't talk about anything that

00:02:14   happened before today. Yeah, that was, it's very difficult to have a conversation about the 20th

00:02:20   anniversary of the Mac when one of the ground rules is don't talk about the past. There's some

00:02:26   kind of Fight Club joke reference to be made in there, right? I think he, when they were wearing

00:02:34   him down to do it, he said, okay, I'll do it, but I don't want to talk about the past. And they're

00:02:40   like, all right, great. He said, he'd do it. Yeah. That's the win they were looking for really.

00:02:45   And then now it's your problem, Jason. It's not their problem anymore. You have to come up with

00:02:50   a conversation. I found that that was a, the whole thing was an unpleasant experience. He didn't want

00:02:55   to be there. I kind of didn't want to be there either. We made the best of it. It was brief and

00:03:00   then, and that was it. And then beyond that, my only interactions with him was I asked a couple

00:03:05   of questions at back when they did press conferences at media events, which did happen

00:03:10   occasionally. But those are not quite the same, right? Just shouting. This was a direct one-on-one

00:03:17   Jason situation. It was, I mean, obviously it was being monitored by all of his minders who,

00:03:24   you know, who called afterwards, right? Like they were clearly listening to the whole thing,

00:03:28   but, um, but yeah, it was, I wouldn't say it was my finest hour. Um, but he was also a pretty tough

00:03:35   person to talk to and didn't want to be talking to me. So yeah, we're going to be talking about

00:03:41   a Tim Cook interview later on in the episode. Have you ever spoken to Tim? I have not spoken to Tim,

00:03:48   I think at all. I have been near him in, in the hands-on area after, but there's,

00:03:55   there's a funny thing about these events. Hopefully they'll come back at some point in

00:03:59   some form. Um, you're out there in the hands-on area and there's a lot of people, right? There's

00:04:06   a lot of people in the Steve Jobs theater, let's say. And then there's a lot of people in the

00:04:09   hands-on area, uh, which is sort of a lobby to the Steve Jobs theater. And you're, you, you sense

00:04:16   a certain amount of, uh, hubbub around you because there's so many people, but then there's like,

00:04:25   it's like a wave kind of swelling. Suddenly you, you just sort of sense that there's more. And like

00:04:30   there were a lot of people around you, but now there's a lot, lot, and the sounds change and

00:04:35   everything's just a little bit more intense. And that's when you turn and realize, Oh, Tim Cook's

00:04:41   right there because there's a bubble of people taking pictures and people wanting to talk to Tim

00:04:47   and Tim interacting with people. And he's sort of holding court a little bit, moving from station to

00:04:52   station. Um, usually with a member of like a high disability media kind of in tow, but, um, it's

00:05:00   sort of Tim's appearance and I've gotten caught up in that a couple of times just accidentally,

00:05:06   cause I'm just trying to, you know, hold the phone and see what it's like. And then suddenly hubbub

00:05:13   happens around me and Oh, there's Tim over there. And if you're really lucky, um, you'll occasionally

00:05:18   get in the photos of the event the next day in on wire services and stuff like Jeff Carlson, the

00:05:24   writer and photographer. Um, he was in, he was just happened to be next to Tim when every like

00:05:31   major organization shot their best pictures from that event. And so Jeff was in, he was photo

00:05:38   bombing Tim Cook for, uh, for the next days, uh, newspaper coverage and, and, you know, websites

00:05:44   and stuff like that. So, uh, but no, I haven't had any direct interactions with him. I imagine they'd

00:05:49   be pleasant because he seems like a pleasant fellow and we'd, um, I probably try to work

00:05:54   college football into the conversation because I know he likes it and I like it too. Yeah. Saying

00:06:00   about the, um, getting in the images thing that that was what happened with the connected artwork

00:06:06   when, um, we went connected was featured in the Apple watch presentation at WWDC a few years ago.

00:06:12   And that was the Getty image was Tim standing in front of the connected artwork. So it was on

00:06:20   all the newspapers and stuff. We're picking up that one image of him. And so that, that was

00:06:25   really cool. Cause then not only did we have our artwork behind him, it was then on the front of

00:06:30   the newspapers, uh, or whatever, you know, like in the newspapers, uh, that was next level, right?

00:06:36   It's like, not only could you take a screenshot of your artwork on the, on the live stream,

00:06:42   but it turns out that. Um, they had taken a bunch of photos of Tim on stage with it in the background.

00:06:47   That's just like extra bonus. I bought the Getty image and made a fracture out of it.

00:06:53   Yes. I got it on my wall. So I was very thankful for it. If you would like to send in a snow talk

00:07:02   question to help us open the show, just send in a tweet with the hashtag snow talk or use

00:07:06   question Mark snow talk in the relay FM members discord. We spoke about it last week and it

00:07:11   happened. I think the next day WWDC has been announced, uh, it was going to be June 7 to 11,

00:07:18   all online format. We made it happen. We did it. Myke, we did it. You and me, we made it happen.

00:07:23   Everybody can thank somebody did on Twitter, speculate that somebody at Apple was listening

00:07:28   to upgrade and they're like, Oh, did we not? So what do you think? I mean, this is obviously

00:07:34   what we expected. Uh, I'm happy that it's earlier in the month again, rather than later in the month.

00:07:39   Cause that would suggest hopefully that we will have a more normal, uh, time period, um, for the

00:07:45   beta. So basically the full three months rather than the compressed pretty much two and a bit

00:07:50   months that we get. Right. It's the, for me, the traditional last week of school, uh, inconvenient

00:07:56   time of WWDC, the less, little less of a problem this year. But, um, uh, I think it's, uh, I show,

00:08:04   it shows something right that this is their preferred time and pace for the summer and for

00:08:08   releases and things like that, which is good. And you know, they, they touted how great last

00:08:13   year was cause so many people could quote unquote attend and that they're going to keep doing more

00:08:19   this year to expand that we don't have particular details yet. Um, but it seems like that they might

00:08:25   be looking at doing something else. So do you have any particular thoughts on that at all? Like,

00:08:32   it's kind of what we expected. Um, there's not really much else to it, right? Yeah, no,

00:08:37   I think we covered it last week. It's pretty much what we expected. I I'm I, as, as coverage goes,

00:08:44   like doing my job goes, I find this format vastly superior to being in person only because I can

00:08:55   sit at my desk instead of either staying in a hotel or an Airbnb and uh, you know, working from

00:09:03   unforeseen circumstances or, you know, driving more than an hour to San Jose. Um, and I can sit

00:09:09   there and with all the videos that are posted, uh, I can watch those videos kind of at my leisure

00:09:14   and in my living room or at my desk and I can take notes and I can write articles about them

00:09:19   and it's great. Obviously what you entirely lose is the personal side of it, which is why I,

00:09:24   I did go and why I find that incredibly valuable. There's the social aspect of seeing all sorts of

00:09:29   people who are interesting and you never get a chance to see. So I miss that. But, um, I'm

00:09:34   excited about the event because this is the, this is the official start of the next calendar year,

00:09:39   essentially, or not calendar year, the Apple calendar. Uh, it's the start of the Apple year

00:09:43   because it sets the, um, positioning for what the OS is are going to be. And everything kind

00:09:48   of follows from that and the iPhone follows from that. And, and then we go through the year. So

00:09:53   it's always very exciting. We learn a lot that really is giving a sense of what the next year

00:09:57   plus is going to bring from Apple. Um, and, uh, it's, I expect it will be at least for us,

00:10:05   for observers. It might be different if you're a developer, but for observers, I expect it will be

00:10:09   very much like it was, um, with, with last year's, which was great.

00:10:13   >> And we have a year's experience of this type of WVDC now, which I'm thankful for,

00:10:19   and we'll be planning better, uh, my approach for this year. According to Mark Gorman in a newsletter

00:10:26   that he wrote for Bloomberg, Apple is planning to announce an event for its mixed reality headset

00:10:31   product within the next few months, but they're currently holding out to have an in-person event

00:10:36   with members of the media. This is what I expected, right? Not, I mean, I think I've said this on the

00:10:42   show before, not at WWDC and to have a separate event because it feels big. Um, the in-person

00:10:52   part, I think makes a lot of sense, right? Like why they would want that.

00:10:54   >> Well, right. This is why do you do in-person media events? And the answer is not because that's

00:11:02   the only, because you want an audience for a, for a video live stream, right? Like that's not

00:11:06   the answer. The answer is you want people in influential places to get their hands on,

00:11:12   or in this case, maybe their heads on, uh, whatever the product is, right? Like you want,

00:11:18   and I, that's the thing that I miss the most from like the iPhone event last year is that I didn't

00:11:23   get a chance to hold the iPhones in my hand. And so then it's like, well, what are the iPhones like?

00:11:27   It's like, I don't know. I know everybody knows as much as I do because we all just saw a video

00:11:31   and that's all we know. Um, so having people there to have that experience is, uh, is, is good.

00:11:40   It's helpful. And could they roll something like this out? The problem is if it's a pre-announce

00:11:48   and it's going to be months before it ships, then you can't do the trick that they've done with a

00:11:54   lot of products, which is put it under embargo and mail it to people's houses, right? You get

00:11:58   the FedEx box, don't open this. It's there's an iMac inside, right? You can't do that. If it's

00:12:05   pre-release hardware in a tightly controlled environment, right? You, you really, then they're

00:12:09   not going to let a prototype product, put it in a FedEx box and ship it off and hope everything

00:12:15   goes well. It's not like, you know, we've seen it in the past. I think it was, I think if I'm

00:12:19   remembering rightly, it might've been the original Apple watch demo. You can maybe tell me about this

00:12:23   thing in the hands-on, uh, you weren't allowed to touch it, but people were showing you basically a

00:12:30   demo loop, which was surely all that could be done. There were watches that were running the

00:12:35   demo loop. There might've been a watch that was not running the demo loop, but it was again on the

00:12:40   arm of an Apple employee and you could look, but you could not touch as a person. I tried to touch,

00:12:46   I tried to touch the Apple watch and they're like, no, no, you're going to get me in trouble.

00:12:51   Nobody touches the Apple watch. So, so that's the rationale. So listening to Mark Gurman talk about

00:12:57   this, I think it makes sense. I think they could do it. Obviously they could do whatever they

00:13:03   wanted, but I get the desire to have people actually try it and that that kind of needs

00:13:08   to be in person, whether it's the event or whether it's in like a briefing kind of thing,

00:13:13   it does require some personal contact, which would be something that they haven't done in the, in more

00:13:17   than a year. Um, if they do it as an event, my guess is that it's going to be a low invitation.

00:13:25   Um, probably us only, maybe even California only with a briefing in New York for people on the

00:13:36   East coast and probably requiring that proof of vaccination or at the very least, uh, a negative

00:13:47   COVID test, but probably, uh, which, you know, I think if you're talking about summer, late summer

00:13:53   in the U S everybody who wants to be vaccinated should be vaccinated by late summer. In fact,

00:14:00   sooner than that by early summer. So, uh, it's not unreasonable at all to think that they could

00:14:05   actually pull this off. And it sounds, I think it's, it's perfectly reasonable to see that Apple

00:14:10   is grappling with like one, an event that really needs it in a way that some of their other events

00:14:15   don't and to figuring out that in the, you know, at some point we got to come back to doing some

00:14:20   personal interaction and we, we may be able to do that this summer because hopefully virus level

00:14:26   will go down and people will be immunized and it won't be a problem. So I think it's interesting

00:14:32   to hear the rumblings that they're kind of struggling with this. I think they could definitely

00:14:35   make it work. Um, but there are a lot more challenges also. Let's not forget that you're,

00:14:40   if this is something you're putting on your face, then like, they're going to have to sanitize it.

00:14:44   Like you're not going to have like 50 different people rubbing a thing on their face. It just,

00:14:53   you can't do that. So, uh, there's some challenges there, but, um, but it makes sense that they would

00:14:58   want to do it this way. Um, I, I'd be game for it. I'm up for it. This just feels like a product

00:15:06   that needs, if you want press to talk about it afterwards, which they obviously do,

00:15:12   it needs a demo, right? They can do a video. Like I thought potentially what we could see is,

00:15:18   uh, bare minimum, they do a video presentation like we've seen. And then as soon as the video

00:15:22   presentation is over and embargo list, some people that have had private, um, demos over the week

00:15:28   prior to it. Right. But that, and that's sort of what I was saying is you can do it that way,

00:15:33   but you're still doing in person demos, right? Like you can don't, you don't need a live event,

00:15:38   but they're much more controlled and stuff like that. Right. But you need, you need people to do

00:15:43   that. And so yes, they could do it that way. They could have people in New York and maybe people in

00:15:47   in Cupertino and do some briefings that way and then have it be under embargo. Although again,

00:15:54   brand new product never been seen before. Seems unlikely that they would have things under embargo

00:15:59   in advance of it. Right. They want to do their own thing. Well, West comes to West. I have a

00:16:07   hard time believing that they would show people a product that they had not announced that was a

00:16:12   major new product under embargo because that is, there's too much risk of all the details leaking

00:16:18   in a way that, uh, you know, if they keep it up, this stuff will leak, but like,

00:16:23   that's not been their pattern at all. So I think it's less likely they'd do that.

00:16:27   But this is definitely adding to my consideration that WWDC wouldn't be the time for anything like

00:16:33   this because I don't think they can show off anything software wise without showing the

00:16:38   hardware like tipping their hand there. And this really feels like something that if they

00:16:44   feel like they've got something which is, which is good and better than what currently exists,

00:16:49   they need to have press and people in the media, YouTubers talking about this product like it's

00:16:58   special, right? Um, Tim Cook's not going to say, you know, this thing's, this thing's kind of good.

00:17:04   It's a little bit better than the Oculus, right? He's not going to say that. So what you want to

00:17:09   hear is people like you, people like MKBHD, you know, people like Nilay Patel saying like, all

00:17:15   right, we had a chance to try this thing and it's next level for these reasons, right? Like that's,

00:17:20   that's what you want. And I almost feel like it's worth just delaying the product and its

00:17:26   announcement until you can get that, because I think that's what it's going to need to,

00:17:31   to really land with people. That's the decision I would make anyway, if they were asking me.

00:17:37   Tim Cook Well, they need developer support for it,

00:17:39   which means they, they ideally like with the Apple watch, they really need a run up for it. And, and

00:17:45   that makes me interested in the developer conference as a tie-in. But the fact is

00:17:54   Apple has said repeatedly that AR is a focus. There's AR in their devices, in the iPhone and

00:18:01   the iPad. They, at this point, Apple could go in their videos in the developer conference and say,

00:18:10   we got a whole bunch of great AR things to show you and talk about them. And everything would be

00:18:19   in the context of the iPhone and the iPad, but we'd all know what they really mean. And that,

00:18:24   so it wouldn't preclude them from evangelizing developers at the developer conference.

00:18:31   David Bonilla Which they've been doing for years anyway,

00:18:33   though, right? Tim Cook

00:18:34   Right. Without announcing the product, knowing that they're going to announce it a month or two

00:18:38   later, at which point developers know more about what's going on and they've still got time to

00:18:44   develop apps for it. I think they can, they can finesse it. They can, they can make this work.

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00:21:00   and Relay FM. We spoke about this change a while ago, which is John Turnus becoming SVP of hardware

00:21:07   engineering. John is now listed on Apple's leadership page, which is nice for John. So

00:21:14   congratulations to him. He may have had a hand. Well, we know he will have a hand in the next IMAX.

00:21:20   There was a report from the "credible leaker". This is from MacRumors. MacRumors was reporting

00:21:27   the "credible leaker" with the Twitter account Love to Dream, which is an account that I see pop

00:21:32   up every now and then. It does seem to have a good track record. I trust MacRumors to keep track of

00:21:37   the track records more than me. They have suggested that the next IMAX will "have a screen that is

00:21:43   really big, bigger than the biggest one". So the Pro Display XDR goes to 32 inches. It's huge.

00:21:53   Could you imagine the IMAX being pushed to that kind of level? Well, first off, I will say one of

00:22:02   the brilliant things about being a credible leaker on Twitter is that there's no narrative and there's

00:22:06   no context placed around anything that they have to say, which is why they're not Mark Gurman.

00:22:12   Because all Love to Dream has to say is one fact, which is "Oh, yeah, bigger than the current IMAX."

00:22:19   But the fact is there's been a rumor that they were going to make the 27-inch IMAX into a 30-inch

00:22:28   IMAX and the 21.5-inch IMAX into a 24-inch IMAX. That's been out there for more than a year now.

00:22:35   So I just look at this and say, "Yeah, that's what that is. That's what this person is talking about."

00:22:42   I think the Pro Display XDR is enormous and it's probably unlikely that it's quite that big.

00:22:48   But larger than 27, keeping in mind too that I think that these IMAX are going to have way smaller

00:22:54   frames around them, way smaller bezels, and as a result, they're not going to seem as huge.

00:22:59   I mean, geez, if they keep these bezels and make the screen bigger.

00:23:02   They're going to do the iPad Pro thing or the-- I mean, they're going to shrink the bezels and

00:23:07   then make the screen bigger and hopefully the actual device will not seem that much bigger,

00:23:12   but it'll just be all screen. So I think that this is just in line with that theory.

00:23:18   But that theory is that the 21.5 is going to become a 24 and the 27 is going to become a 30.

00:23:25   And that sounds great. I honestly, I feel like the screen on my IMAX Pro is almost too big.

00:23:36   I like a 27-inch screen and all, but the stuff that's out at the periphery,

00:23:40   you could just forget that it's out there. I hear people with a Pro Display XDR talk about it and

00:23:45   it's the same story, right? Which is you put stuff kind of off on the side and it's like

00:23:48   you're consulting. It's like you're pulling out something out of a filing cabinet or something.

00:23:53   It's like it's way over there. It's, "Oh, that window. That window is off to the right. I haven't

00:23:59   seen that window in years." That's not ideal for most ways that I work. I like to work in the

00:24:06   center of the screen and I find that even on the 27-inch iMac, stuff that's parked on the left side

00:24:10   of the screen or the right side of the screen is kind of awkward. But some people love it.

00:24:16   There will still be choice, it seems like, between a super big iMac and a smaller iMac.

00:24:23   And that sounds good to me. I have a 32-inch monitor at the studio. It's an LG one that I

00:24:29   really like and it is massive, but I do love it. See? And I just like the idea of having the big

00:24:36   iMac get bigger, that they have the freedom to do that by making the space around it go away.

00:24:42   And there's also a question of what the screen looks like and what the shape of the iMac is,

00:24:48   right? Because the iMac right now is taller than its display ratio because it's got the big chin

00:24:55   at the bottom. And so there's a question there too. If you eliminate more of that chin,

00:24:59   your diagonal is going to get larger even if it's not much wider. So I guess we'll see, right?

00:25:08   But I feel like this report is in line with what we've already heard other than the sequencing of

00:25:15   it, which is everybody sort of assumed that the smaller iMac is going to hit first and be with

00:25:20   a lower-end chip. And then later in the year, they're going to do the high-end iMac and that'll

00:25:24   be big and it'll have a new, previously not seen Apple Silicon chip in it. And those are some

00:25:30   assumptions made on some reports and saying, you know, the next iMac screen is really big. Like,

00:25:37   is this person thinking about these iMacs both being released now or is this person, you know,

00:25:44   thinking about just the next big iMac, which is, you know, maybe sequenced after the smaller iMac.

00:25:53   That part I don't know, but otherwise it seems like this is just sort of coloring in some of

00:25:56   the margins of what we already knew. If the big one went to like 30, 32, something like that,

00:26:06   would you think you would consider the smaller one, provided you could spec it the way you'd want?

00:26:11   Well, if we assume that the smaller one gets bigger and the smaller one's a 24

00:26:15   inch, I would consider it. I would. That said, coming from an iMac Pro, if they come out with

00:26:22   a 24 inch iMac that's running on an M1, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, I would be

00:26:28   inclined to wait at that point, right? Thinking I could get an M1, but the 8-core iMac Pro is as

00:26:34   fast or faster than the M1. The M1 is very impressive, but this is a, you know, what was

00:26:38   a $5,000 computer, Pro computer. I'll wait on that one. But if they can get me an iMac that is faster

00:26:46   than the M1s, it will be appreciably faster than my iMac Pro, and then I'll consider it. So, if all

00:26:53   other things being equal, there was a 30 inch iMac and a 24 inch iMac, would I consider the 24 inch

00:27:00   iMac? I would. I would. Like, if I could get it with the power of the 30 inch iMac, I'd like to

00:27:06   see them, right? And I fear that I am, even though I complained about the 27 inch screen being big,

00:27:12   that I would feel cramped in a smaller screen at this point, because isn't that how that works?

00:27:18   Once you have a bigger screen, you can never have a smaller screen again. You just expand to the

00:27:23   space that you're given, which I think is a similar thing for why people that I know that have the

00:27:28   Pro DisplayXDR, their complaints about how big it is don't last for very long, and then they just get

00:27:33   used to the size, and then that's the size of their monitor, you know? Then going back to smaller would

00:27:38   be, we'll want them. I would seriously consider it though, because I do have a feeling like my

00:27:43   iMac is a little bit, that screen is a little bit too much for me. Most cases, not always, if I'm

00:27:49   doing like live streaming video or something like that, suddenly it's not big enough, but most cases

00:27:54   it's not. Then it's like exponential, how many more monitors can I, will I want to attach to this?

00:27:59   Oh, I mean, when I do live streaming of D&D, I have to put it in more space mode,

00:28:05   where everything gets smaller, because I don't, I don't, in that case, have enough.

00:28:09   Would you consider sidecar for something like that? You know, like throwing some windows off

00:28:12   onto the iPad? No. You don't use that? No, no. If I wanted to do that, I mean, in most cases,

00:28:18   I would just put the, I will do that actually, when I'm doing the D&D stuff, I'll have my iPad

00:28:23   there, but I just have my iPad doing iPad stuff. I don't need to do Mac stuff. That makes sense.

00:28:28   Last week, uh, beta 6 of iOS 14.5 came out. Yes. It's still, still swimming around there in beta.

00:28:36   This is basically at this point, it's almost like 14.6, cause it's just keeps adding more and more

00:28:42   stuff. I think 14.5 was supposed to come out a while ago. Yeah. It's obviously picked to a

00:28:48   hardware release that it, that hasn't happened yet. And so they just are, are continuing to spin.

00:28:53   It just keeps, it's like, um, a snowball kind of thing. And it's just the further it's going along,

00:28:58   it's just picking up more thing. Well, like a Katamari. Anyway. Um, so in the most recent beta,

00:29:06   Apple announced that a selection of new Siri voices in various English speaking regions

00:29:13   would be added. And also, I think in all regions, they have removed the default,

00:29:19   like Siri having a default voice. So in America, it was traditionally the female voice in the UK.

00:29:27   It was the British voice in different, um, the men areas, British male voice in the UK. Yes.

00:29:34   The British male voice. So in different regions, they've had a default Siri voice,

00:29:38   which my understanding was it was because it was that time, the best that they had in kind of the

00:29:44   way that the voices sounded. So they just defaulted to whichever one was best for them. And now they

00:29:50   have done two things. So they're adding more voices and they're more realistic. I've heard

00:29:55   some samples of them and they do sound really, really good. But I think the bigger news though,

00:30:00   is that they have decided to remove the defaults and they've also removed the naming. So now

00:30:09   all of the voices have just numbers by the names rather than male and female or gendering them in

00:30:15   any way, which I just think it just makes more sense. And it just lets people choose

00:30:20   whichever Siri voice they want. And that's what you do on set up. You just choose which

00:30:24   Siri voice you want. So I think this is a better way of doing it. Hi, I'm Siri. Choose the voice

00:30:28   you'd like me to use. Hi, I'm Siri. Choose the voice you'd like me to use. Hi, I'm Siri. Choose

00:30:36   the voice you'd like me to use. Hi, I'm Siri. Choose the voice you'd like me to use. The second

00:30:42   one and the fourth one sounded like the new ones to me. Uh, the second and third. Oh, I went four,

00:30:47   three. That was four, three, two, one that I played there. Okay. And two and three are new.

00:30:52   And they do sound more realistic, which I think is good. I'm not sure how I feel if I want it to be

00:31:00   more realistic, but the biggest story here is removing the defaults. I think. Yeah, I think so.

00:31:06   Having people pick, um, you've got more choices, which one sort of speaks to you more.

00:31:13   Uh, it's fun. You know, I've had a British Butler on my HomePod for a while now. So, but this is,

00:31:22   it's, uh, it's nice to be able to choose. I have a couple of upstream pieces of news for you, Jason.

00:31:28   One, which is Jason Sudeikis won another award for Ted Lasso last night. Yes.

00:31:31   Outstanding performance by a male actor in a comedy series at the Screen Actors Guild Awards.

00:31:37   Yes. They lost the, they lost the Ensemble Award, which is the big one, um, to Schitt's Creek,

00:31:43   which is not surprising because that everybody expected that, but he won the, uh, the male actor

00:31:47   award. And there's also a very nice video that they posted, um, that was sort of like made for

00:31:52   the SAG Awards with the team in the locker room that was obviously shot as they're shooting season

00:31:57   two. Um, that's got some very funny, uh, bits in it about the other that there's like the,

00:32:04   we're facing tough competition here and they put up all the other nominees and there's a, uh,

00:32:08   there's a very funny joke at Jason Sudeikis' expense because he, uh, was at the Golden Globes

00:32:15   and he had a hoodie. Yeah. And so in the video that they posted, um, Jamie Tartt walks in wearing

00:32:22   a hoodie and it's like the same hoodie as Jason Sudeikis. It's probably literally the same hoodie.

00:32:27   And somebody says, who wears a hoodie to an awards show? Yeah. If you know the reference,

00:32:33   it's a really funny. All right. I'm gonna, I haven't seen that. I'm gonna have to watch that.

00:32:37   That looks really good. I think I found it. It's on the Apple TV Twitter account, right?

00:32:41   It is. I'll put that in the show notes too. And this one, I just was excited about it. Netflix

00:32:47   have paid $450 million for the rights to Knives Out two and three. Brian Johnson will direct and

00:32:53   Daniel Craig is reprising the role of Benoit Blanc. So they're trying, they're setting a,

00:32:59   they're trying to get another franchise going. We have said repeatedly, one of the challenges

00:33:04   Netflix has is it's got to build franchises. It doesn't have going for it with some of the

00:33:09   other services do with owning existing franchises. And so here's an interesting example. Cause they

00:33:14   have, they're doing that other spy one, right? With Ryan Gosling. Oh, the one that they want

00:33:19   to be there. James Bond. Yeah. Well you can see they're doing it and it's funny cause they're

00:33:23   doing this movies and not a series, but Knives Out was great. And the idea of telling more mystery

00:33:29   stories, I feel like, um, Ryan Johnson doing more stories with Daniel Craig is great. I feel like

00:33:35   there's even more though to Knives Out. They could do more. They could, they could tell some other

00:33:39   mystery stories. I kind of want this to turn into not, not with Daniel Craig cause he's a big movie

00:33:44   star. But like I would like to see the Colombo version of Knives Out where they do six of them

00:33:50   a year, 90 minutes long with some other actor perhaps from one, you know, one of the cops from

00:33:57   Knives Out or perhaps it's somebody who worked with Benoit Blanc and just tell these kind of

00:34:02   mysteries cause they're so fun. Knives Out was so much fun and they don't, they don't, um, make them

00:34:07   like this anymore. And they're actually, um, I think I would like to see them. So, uh, this is

00:34:12   cool. As one of my favorite movies I've seen in years and I was just, I'm just super happy that

00:34:18   they're doing more of them. Cause it was one of the things where I was like, ah, this was so

00:34:23   successful. How could they do more? Like I wasn't sure what they would do, but this just makes a lot

00:34:27   of sense, right? We just follow Benoit Blanc to his next crime to solve, right? Like it's kind of,

00:34:32   yeah. When he's a, he's a kind of like a reluctant, uh, participant in Knives Out, which I kind of like

00:34:39   the idea that, you know, that's, that's a classic mystery thing, right? Where it's like the detective

00:34:44   who comes is like, ah, I don't want to be here. This is accidental. It's like, all right, I guess

00:34:49   I'll, I'll figure it out. And the cops are like, oh no, this is our job. And it's like, yeah, well,

00:34:53   yeah, but I'm, I'm the one who's going to figure this out. I love it. And I know I would also like

00:34:58   to see, um, cause there is an element of very gentle spoilers for Knives Out. There's like

00:35:05   elements to the movie where we don't actually really see his diary, like detective prowess,

00:35:10   cause things just happen luckily for him in a way. And I would like to see a movie where we see more

00:35:17   deduction from him, you know, cause he does a lot of, uh, in the first movie, um, applying pressure

00:35:24   like that. That's the thing I appreciate about that is that it's almost like a martial arts kind

00:35:29   of approach where he, he doesn't need to barrel in there. He just needs to apply some judicious

00:35:35   pressure in a few places and everything starts to fall apart, which gives him his answer. Yeah.

00:35:40   I think I would also like to see a movie like maybe in level in, in this, these movies where

00:35:47   we don't know the answer because we're shown the answer, right? Like that's part of the movie,

00:35:54   like very early on, we know what happened and I would like to also have one of these movies,

00:36:00   but it's not the case. So we'll see. Okay. But I'm excited. Those are two different kinds.

00:36:06   Colombo always showed the crime knives out. It takes you a while to figure out what actually

00:36:10   happened. Um, um, there's the different kinds, but you know, love a good mystery. Doesn't,

00:36:16   they don't all have to be just like on PBS from the BBC. They can, especially when they're this

00:36:21   good, right? Yeah. Like worth it out of nowhere. Apple expands Apple arcade. They're bringing 30

00:36:29   new, you have brought 30 new games to the platform with some more on the way. This now brings the

00:36:34   total of games available on Apple arcade to over 180 and they are now categorizing Apple arcade

00:36:42   games into one of three kind of buckets. We have Apple arcade originals, timeless classics, and app

00:36:50   store greats. So they brought in some new games, like some original games, the stuff like stuff

00:36:56   we've seen in the past where they're working with companies, they produce a game for Apple arcade,

00:37:00   but they've, the thing that was really excited me and caught my eye the most with this announcement

00:37:05   is that they have added a selection of successful and critically acclaimed iOS games from the past

00:37:10   to the service. So for example, mini Metro fruit, ninja flip flop, solitaire monument valley,

00:37:17   and threes just to name a selection. I mean, this selection is like five of the very best iOS games

00:37:25   ever made. And there's more there as well. All of Zach Gage's games are there, right?

00:37:31   Yep. I think spell tower is there now too. And he's the best.

00:37:34   I'm really bad at chess. And all of those games are there.

00:37:36   This is such a great idea. I feel like Apple has recalibrated what it wants Apple arcade to be.

00:37:48   I also feel a little bit like Apple arcade is a standalone service versus Apple arcade is also

00:37:54   being part of a bundle allows Apple to kind of reconsider what they want in terms of making

00:37:59   Apple arcade feel worth it. Right. Because you're not necessarily selling a $5 a month

00:38:07   Apple arcade subscription. You're you're just accruing value to the bundle.

00:38:11   And that might be a little bit different. And the idea of taking apps that have maybe out lived,

00:38:19   not their usefulness, because these are games, right? It's outlived their novelty and their

00:38:24   revenue generation in the app store. And in some cases, it's apps that are maybe doing fine in the

00:38:29   app store, but have sort of had their day. And there are other apps that are gone or have no

00:38:36   reason to be updated for the app store and giving them a new life as a, it's almost Apple's version

00:38:44   of what the console makers do where they kind of have classic games from previous consoles.

00:38:50   I would like to see more of this. I would really like to see Apple give a bunch of classic app

00:38:55   store games from history that have kind of faded away. Give those developers a reason to put work

00:39:02   into them to make them work on modern devices. And that's, they're going to be an Apple arcade

00:39:07   whether they that's because they're going to get money from Apple arcade for use or whether Apple

00:39:12   just writes them a check and says, "Update it. Here's your money. Put it in the store."

00:39:16   But it's, there's some work to do. They've got these, the ones that are already in the store

00:39:23   are like doing these like plus versions that are essentially the same app, except on Apple arcade.

00:39:31   It feels very much like that has to go away at some point. It makes much more sense if an app is

00:39:37   available on Apple arcade and in the app store at large that you would have an interface that says

00:39:42   something like, you know, $4.99 or free on Apple arcade. Or if you're an Apple arcade user, it

00:39:48   would just say, "You get this for free with Apple arcade." Instead of having two versions of mini

00:39:54   Metro, which is what happens. Mini Metro Plus, which as far as I can tell is not actually any

00:39:59   different from mini Metro. Some of them might be different in that they've got an app purchase

00:40:02   turned off, but for the most part, it's just the same thing with a different app ID. And that's a

00:40:07   little bit silly. They need to, they need to clean that up. They need to work that out. This feels

00:40:10   very much like a driven by the product manager type thing where they haven't necessarily gotten

00:40:20   resourced to do it differently. And what I mean is like, you know, the Apple arcade team had this

00:40:24   idea and they are now working within the confines of the store. If you're in management, they're

00:40:31   like, "We've got this idea." But to get this, and we've talked to the app store and to get them to

00:40:36   change this, it's going to be iOS 15. It's just, we're not going to get this now. And the manager's

00:40:44   like, "Let's just do it. Call it, put a plus on it. Get it out there." Right? And I think that's

00:40:48   the right call. Like, "Get it out there. Get it out there now. Don't wait around for the engineering

00:40:53   on it." But I would prioritize that. I would say that's on our wishlist. We would really like to

00:40:57   have the ability to have a game that lives in Apple Arcade and in the app store with different

00:41:03   behavior for both of them. We would like that to exist. And it gets on the priority list for

00:41:08   whoever's working on the app store. But yeah, I actually kind of like the idea that it's the

00:41:14   people who care about Apple Arcade who are finding a way to work within the system to make what they

00:41:19   want happen in terms of the content in their service. That's good. To save the follow-up,

00:41:24   you mentioned about bringing back old games. There is this company and service called Game Club,

00:41:29   which is a subscription service. I think it's run by one of the people who used to work at

00:41:36   Touch Arcade or founded Touch Arcade, where effectively they say, "Hey, developers that

00:41:41   don't want to continue updating your games anymore, let us do it for you and you will get money

00:41:48   for the subscription." So like games that aren't on app stores anymore, like because they haven't

00:41:52   been updated for new screen resolutions and stuff. Game Club's whole thing is they will do that for

00:41:57   you and it's a part of the service, which is interesting. But I also want to see Apple doing

00:42:03   it this way because I just think this is really great. I think what we're seeing here, well,

00:42:07   what we are clearly seeing from Apple is a change in strategy because platform exclusivity was one

00:42:15   of the requirements of Apple Arcade. You could not make your mobile platform exclusivity, you could

00:42:24   not make your game available for Android and you also couldn't make it available for any of the

00:42:29   subscription service. So you could go to Nintendo Switch or you could go to Xbox, but you couldn't

00:42:35   be an Xbox Game Pass. Now, they still have the classification of arcade originals, which I assume

00:42:42   is this and maybe you get a bit more money as part of the deal. But some of these classics and

00:42:47   greats, games like Threes and Monument Valley, they're on lots of other platforms. So there's

00:42:53   clearly been a change here, which I will remind everyone back in June of last year, there was a

00:42:58   Bloomberg article that was talking about cancelled contracts and Apple shifting focus on Apple Arcade.

00:43:04   And I'll give you a little quote from the article. This is the quote that everyone really focused on

00:43:10   for when the couple of weeks we're talking about this. An Apple Arcade creative producer told some

00:43:15   developers that their upcoming games didn't have the level of engagement Apple is seeking.

00:43:20   Apple is increasingly interested in titles that will keep users hooked, so subscribers stay beyond

00:43:24   the free trial of the service according to the people. Now, when this report came around the

00:43:29   first time, it didn't sit right with me because it just didn't feel like that was what Apple would be

00:43:37   wanting to do with the service. And it maybe felt like this was the experience felt by some people

00:43:45   who had their games cancelled because I just didn't buy that Apple wanted to have these high

00:43:54   engagement games. They weren't looking for new candy crushers for Apple Arcade. It just didn't

00:44:00   make sense to me. And it kind of felt like that maybe some people got their games cancelled for

00:44:05   some reasons, but the idea that they were going to change Apple Arcade to be basically in-app

00:44:11   purchase games about the in-app purchases, that just didn't seem right. And I think this has

00:44:16   shown it. I think that back in June, they did change what they wanted to do, and they wanted

00:44:21   to do more stuff like this. And that there were some games that didn't make the strategy change.

00:44:25   - Right, use some of their budget that they were going to make on originals to instead fund some

00:44:30   of these other streams and get them up and running. I think it's also weird that that producer

00:44:35   complained that it was just expensive NBC. Strange. That's a reference. Anyway.

00:44:41   - But it's the same kind of thing, right? - Who was complaining, yeah.

00:44:44   - Because again, this is what we spoke about. We continue to talk about where is the report,

00:44:49   where is the rumor coming from? If it's coming from someone who's upset, it might be a little

00:44:54   harsher. - So look at what our initial response to Apple Arcade was, which is it's going to all

00:45:01   be about the exclusive games. They're going to live or die based on the exclusive games,

00:45:06   and Apple probably had some struggles where they have some successes and some failures.

00:45:09   Somebody inside Apple Arcade says, "Maybe what Apple Arcade should be is a bunch of things.

00:45:16   Exclusive games, classic games that you don't have to pay for that we're bringing back,

00:45:22   and the best of the App Store that you just don't have to pay for." Because that's essentially what

00:45:27   they're doing is they're saying, "We're going to pick games out of the App Store and give them to

00:45:31   you for free." And now Apple Arcade is not just a subscription service for exclusive games. Now it's

00:45:39   a curated game service where you pay once and you get exclusives and you get classics that have been

00:45:47   brought back just for you and you get the best. I mean, I'm using the marketing language here,

00:45:52   but this is how they would say it. And then you get some of the best stuff that's in the App Store

00:45:56   without having to pay for it. That's more compelling as a product. That's a better product.

00:46:03   Some people might not like it and some people might find it less compelling, but I think it

00:46:08   speaks to a broader audience. And it also, I would say, personally, as somebody who plays games in

00:46:14   Apple Arcade and buys games on the App Store, eliminates maybe some of the dissonance that

00:46:20   people feel with games that, like, I'm paying for Apple Arcade, but I'm playing games that I bought

00:46:27   on the App Store and it's like, "Well, why am I paying for Apple Arcade if I'm playing

00:46:31   Good Sudoku all the time?" Well, Good Sudoku is now in Apple Arcade and I mean, I already paid

00:46:37   for it, so it's too late, but you get that for free. And what I will watch is I wonder what

00:46:44   Apple's going to do in terms of approaching people to make these Plus versions for Apple Arcade,

00:46:52   because it could get really, I don't think they're going to do this, but it could get really

00:46:58   interesting where Apple approaches almost everybody who's high profile, who's putting games into the

00:47:03   App Store, who has a business model that's a little more, maybe a little more independent minded

00:47:09   and say to them upfront, "Well, we didn't pay for you to develop this for Apple Arcade, but

00:47:17   we will pay you to put it in Apple Arcade for free for our subscribers and we'll kick back this

00:47:24   amount of money to you and you can still sell it in the App Store." I wonder if they'll do that or

00:47:28   experiment with that a little bit, because that does give them the option. It's not all games on

00:47:34   the App Store are free, but they could start depending on, again, how the App Store backend

00:47:39   is structured and all of those things and right now they have to make a duplicate version of the

00:47:44   app and so this might take time, but you could see a scenario where all sorts of games go on the App

00:47:49   Store and if you've got Apple Arcade, they're just free because you've got Apple Arcade.

00:47:53   Which I love that as a strategy. I think it makes more sense and I am very encouraged

00:47:59   by the fact that they have done this. I think this is great. This is exactly the kind of thing

00:48:03   they should be doing, which isn't always what we get, right? But I think this is the way to do it.

00:48:08   It's better for everybody. And I'm just super excited about the fact that forensic is coming

00:48:13   back as part of Apple Arcade. Forensic by the Icon Factory. I've forgotten the Icon Factory made this

00:48:19   game. The original forensic was one of my favorite iOS games ever made and I am so excited for the

00:48:26   new version. It's called Forensic Overtime. I don't know when it's coming, but it's coming soon. I saw

00:48:30   that you say that you played it and I'm so jealous of you. I've been playing it since Thanksgiving,

00:48:34   basically. And yeah, it's good. If you like an intense... I was talking to Lauren about this

00:48:42   because she doesn't... She likes puzzle games. I was like, "This is a puzzle game, but there's

00:48:45   a time element." She's like, "Nope, forget it. No. I don't want the pressure of it." It's for

00:48:48   some people who are super into that, like you, I think. Yeah, you're matching colors and shapes and

00:48:55   orientations of the shapes because you're kind of filling up. It's almost like a trivial pursuit

00:49:00   piece. It's got a little pie piece with wedges. And then there's a whole bunch of other... There's

00:49:05   power-ups and there's a couple of different puzzle types and the art is good and the sound effects

00:49:12   are great. It's a lot of fun and they're doing that. When I started beta testing, it was just,

00:49:17   we are working on a new game from the Icon Factory. And then at some point, a few betas in,

00:49:22   the Apple Arcade screen appeared and I was like, "Oh, I see what's happening here."

00:49:28   I can imagine that this is a result of one of the, when they said, "Hey, pitch us."

00:49:32   I can imagine the Icon Factory, I mean, you don't have to say, but I can imagine them being like,

00:49:37   "We have a game. We would like you to pay us to make it." It was successful in its time.

00:49:43   Because this isn't one of those, it doesn't bring the old game brought back. It is a new

00:49:48   interpretation of an older game. So I'm excited about it. This episode is brought to you by

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00:51:06   So this morning, as we are recording, Tim Cook appeared on Kairo Swisher's podcast Sway,

00:51:14   which is a New York Times thing, but it's Kairo Swisher's podcast. And it's like a 30-something

00:51:20   minute interview. I think maybe you'll agree with me here. I think the whole reason that this

00:51:27   interview was set up was to talk about app tracking transparency in iOS 14.5 and to kind

00:51:34   of get the marketing machine rolling on that. But they also touched on some other areas as well, but

00:51:39   it definitely felt like the part of the interview that was the most polished on Tim's part was

00:51:46   talking about that kind of stuff. And so this is, in case you need a brief refresher, because this

00:51:52   news has been going on for months and we haven't really spoken about it very much, but this is

00:51:58   about the idea of from iOS 14.5 and on, if an application wants to track you using advertising

00:52:08   identifiers, they have to notify you. And so they put up a little system notification that says,

00:52:15   "Hey, this app wants to track you across the web and you can ask it not to track or you can say,

00:52:20   'Yeah, go ahead and track me.'" That's basically the notification that's popping up. And this has

00:52:26   started a bit of a war of words between especially Facebook and Apple. There are lots of companies

00:52:33   that will be affected by this in some way, like Google, I'm sure, will also be affected by this.

00:52:38   Anybody that runs an ad network will be affected by this. But Apple and Facebook have been the ones

00:52:43   going at it the most. And so that's kind of a lot about what this conversation is focused on.

00:52:50   Tim Cook does say that iOS 14.5 is a few weeks away. This definitely made me think that there

00:52:58   is going to be an event. Will it be an event? Will it be a press releases event? I think a few weeks

00:53:06   away suggests an event to me. What do you think? I don't know about that. There's something coming.

00:53:11   How they do it is up to them. There are lots of different ways to slice an event.

00:53:16   But a product announcement of some kind seems like is inevitable. Oh, a product announcement

00:53:23   definitely. But I mean, I'm just holding by. I still think they're going to have some kind of event.

00:53:28   All right. A quote. All we want to do is supply a tool so that the person that should make the

00:53:33   decision can make it. That's Apple's whole like boiling it down. They think that users should be

00:53:38   able to decide what happens to their data and that larger companies shouldn't be able to make that

00:53:45   decision for them, which is hard to argue with. They think they have a winning argument here.

00:53:51   And I was impressed because Kara does say like, well, the end of their argument is

00:53:58   it's going to hurt small businesses and all that. And what Tim says is actually really good and

00:54:06   smart. And yes, like you said, he's well versed and honed on his message here. But what he says

00:54:11   there is they do this a lot. People who want more information will claim, oh, without this,

00:54:18   we can't do X. We can't do this. You're going to decimate the small businesses. There's no other

00:54:23   way for them to do this. And it's never true, right? Like these things keep happening. There

00:54:30   are always arguments. And I would say he didn't say this, but I will say it. This goes across

00:54:35   so many different industries where there is an extinction level event that's going to occur if

00:54:39   this thing happens and then the thing happens and guess what? Things stay the same or they get

00:54:43   better. And so his argument here is when Facebook holds small businesses hostage and says they will

00:54:51   die if you do this, they're not telling the truth. They're saying it because it's self-serving and

00:54:57   that small businesses can find all sorts of ways to reach people using the miraculous world of

00:55:02   social media and internet media in general without requiring this level of tracking. And again,

00:55:10   as he pointed out, tracking that is allowed if the user approves. But we could also argue

00:55:17   just even if they don't approve, will small businesses still be able to find

00:55:21   targeted audiences for their products? Yeah, they will. They will. So I appreciated his

00:55:29   very quick response that these arguments are disingenuous and they always make these arguments

00:55:36   and they never pan out. I think there are some shades of gray, but it's not worth getting into

00:55:44   today's conversation. Cook says that he believes that individuals should have control over who has

00:55:51   their data, which is definitely the case. And he also says, which is something I wholeheartedly

00:55:56   agree with you, if you were starting from scratch today, this is how it would be designed.

00:56:00   If we were starting from scratch, if these things hadn't creeped over time,

00:56:05   everybody would have more control of their data and who has it, what it's used for, because we

00:56:11   would be starting with this in mind. But we've had this slow creep over the years of what is expected

00:56:19   by companies for what they are allowed to have of us. And it's gone too far, definitely, and has to

00:56:27   be brought back. Facebook was built with the door wide open. And if you remember when Facebook

00:56:34   started adding security and privacy features, and I remember this very distinctly the first time they

00:56:40   did it, that it was kind of painful to even get to the preferences. And then there were lots of them

00:56:46   and they didn't make a lot of sense. But this is the example of Facebook built a wide open thing

00:56:52   and everything that it's been added has been added sort of kicking and screaming. And you're right,

00:57:01   the, and Tim's right too, a product like this today would be built with a privacy policy

00:57:09   and with defaults and would not be wide open and would be built also around a model that considers

00:57:17   what level of data they're going to be able to get and what they can ask for consent to get.

00:57:23   But this is not the world we live in. We live in a world where Facebook is huge and has a lot of

00:57:30   data. And it's a complicated issue. I appreciate that Tim Cook has got it down. This is what they

00:57:42   say. This is what they're going to say in Congress and what they're going to say in court and what

00:57:45   they're going to say in interviews. And they've thrown this around and they clearly think they've

00:57:50   got a very strong hand here that Facebook is trying to scare people and Apple gets sort of

00:57:57   calmly just sits there and says, well, this isn't true. You should have the right to do this and you

00:58:02   should have, you know, privacy as a human right. And they obviously think that that is a message

00:58:08   with residents. There was a thing about the privacy policy that annoyed me. Like he was

00:58:17   talking about the privacy nutrition labels thing and was talking about how privacy policies have

00:58:25   become unreadable and that's why they're doing it. And I was just reminded of every time I set up an

00:58:33   Apple product, the absolutely behemoth privacy policies that I have to agree to. And that kind

00:58:40   of annoyed me because I mean, I would love to see them give me a privacy nutrition label version of

00:58:48   the privacy policy before I agree to it. But it just kind of felt a bit rich to make that claim

00:58:55   of like, oh, privacy policies not even written in plain English. But yours isn't either. I find that

00:59:01   stuff annoying. Yeah. Are you thinking of privacy policies or are you thinking of software licenses?

00:59:06   A lot of the stuff you agree to is the licenses, which is not the same as privacy policies. But

00:59:12   the point is the same though, right? I mean, what? Like, I don't know what I'm agreeing to

00:59:17   in that document. Who reads them? Maybe that should be Facebook's counter is, well, what about

00:59:24   let's do, let's do clear labels on software license agreements. I agree. Those are full

00:59:30   of lawyers speak and they, if you look closely, a lot of stuff gets copied and pasted from other

00:59:34   lawyers and other agreements, but, um, that they, yeah. Okay. All right. I think,

00:59:40   I think it's a different argument, but, uh, sure. The line that keeps getting quoted a lot today is,

00:59:46   you know, he says, I am not focused on Facebook, which I, you know, it's, it's a pretty bad-ass

00:59:53   line, honestly, because like, it's just like, oh, your Facebook's doing all this, saying all

00:59:57   this stuff about you. He's like, I'm not focused on them. And Tim also said that he's shocked.

01:00:01   There's been so much of a pushback, which I don't believe. Right. They must have known

01:00:07   that companies would be upset at them for doing this. Right. Come on. Yep.

01:00:14   So as well as the act tracking transparency thing, they did touch on a bunch of different areas. So

01:00:20   they spoke about Apple's decision to remove parlor from the app store and cook says he hopes that

01:00:26   parlor would be able to do what's necessary to come back to the app store in the future and said

01:00:30   more social networks is better. Yeah. You know, I don't think he actually believes that, uh,

01:00:39   it is Apple policy that developers who are kicked out of the app store for violating, uh, the, the

01:00:46   guidelines are welcome back once that they, once they fulfill the guidelines again, but as, um,

01:00:53   Kara Swisher had a followup about, um, parlor not wanting to do or have any control over what said

01:01:03   and all of that. Um, it was one of those moments of like, well, yeah, but they're not going to do

01:01:07   that. It's like, but so it's nice. It's nice for you. It's rich for you to say, oh yeah,

01:01:11   we'd like to have them back if they'll moderate their content, um, knowing that they won't.

01:01:16   Uh, they touched on the legal fight with Epic. So they're going to be in court next month. I believe

01:01:20   it's an in-person trial, uh, with some Apple executives, some Epic executives. Personally,

01:01:26   I'm looking forward to this. Um, Cook, uh, basically was painting the picture that most

01:01:34   developers do not pay 30% to Apple. He was talking about free apps, subscription apps,

01:01:39   and the 15% cut for small businesses and says that over time Apple's cut is just going down

01:01:46   and the rules are applied equally. This still stings with me. I still don't like this part.

01:01:53   Well, and this is why Apple has made some of the changes it's made is so that he can say this.

01:01:59   Yeah, you're right. Actually, that's right. Like we, they, they made those changes and we're like,

01:02:06   oh, they're making these changes because they're anticipating scrutiny and trials and, and, uh,

01:02:10   regulation. And, you know, then it, it enables Tim Cook to go out in an interview and say,

01:02:15   well, look, you know, we, oh, the price just keeps coming down. We're, we're, you know,

01:02:19   we're, we, we don't do this. In fact, I was thinking, um, listening to your summary of it,

01:02:24   um, more than when I heard the actual podcast, I was thinking, what could Apple do

01:02:32   to make Epic even more angry than they already are? And I thought, I wonder if at some point Apple

01:02:39   will say first purchase of apps is 15%. And the only thing we're going to do at 30% is consumables

01:02:48   is digital consumables. I mean, they could do that just to be like, we're going to just focus it. So

01:02:54   there's no, our rules are applied equally. The only rules are about what, uh, this business,

01:02:59   this one particular business model does. Cause it's like Kara brings up, um,

01:03:04   Amazon prime video. Right. And about them always getting 15%. It's like, oh yeah, all of our video

01:03:11   apps are 15%. And she's like, oh, like Netflix. Yeah. I love that. It's like, yeah, the rules

01:03:15   are applied equally, but the rules aren't a natural being. You make them right. And you just

01:03:21   arbitrarily decided that video streaming services would be 15% always you decided that you could

01:03:30   make any decision. Yeah. The Amazon one was like, oh no, there's no special case for Amazon. That's

01:03:35   just a policy we made about video streaming services that applies largely just to Amazon,

01:03:40   but other video services could do it too. These rules are equally applied to Amazon.

01:03:47   It's like, okay, the app store is an economic miracle.

01:03:51   That was quite a quote. Like, well, they have been for a long time, right? Like there's always the,

01:04:01   there's the novelty check to developers on stage at the developer conference.

01:04:06   There's the press releases about this app, thousands, millions sale. And there's the

01:04:10   press releases about economic impact and the number of people who are part of the app, app

01:04:14   economy. And like, this is, I'm not saying it's not true, but this is a narrative that Apple has

01:04:19   been pushing for a long time. And again, one of the reasons it's doing that so that Tim Cook can

01:04:24   say this. And I am not doubting the massive change that they made, right? Like the app store brought,

01:04:34   like, I think it could be argued quite handily without the app store. I wouldn't be doing what

01:04:41   I'm doing, right? Like it's not even just developers. It's like the cultural change

01:04:45   that apps and the app store brought upon the world and all the different types of

01:04:49   careers that it enabled. But just that, just that phrase, I like bumped on it a little bit. I was

01:04:55   like, oh, that's, that's quite pompous. Like an economic miracle. Okay. We got some interesting

01:05:04   details though, as well. So every week, 100,000 apps go to app review and 40,000 of them are

01:05:11   rejected. And one of the main reasons for this is that they either don't work or they don't work

01:05:17   like they say they would. 40% of applications are rejected. Would you have expected it to be that

01:05:25   high? I can't even judge these because we don't know what the details are. Are these, are these

01:05:30   different apps or are these submissions? Are there a hundred thousand apps submissions and 40,000 of

01:05:35   those are rejected? I know plenty of app developers, they get things rejected all the time, sometimes

01:05:40   for no good reason. And then they resubmit and then it gets approved sometimes for really dumb

01:05:45   reasons. Um, yeah, it'd be good to know how many of those 40% are reversed. What is the, the, the,

01:05:52   like the secondary, uh, part of that, you know, what are these rejections actually permanent

01:05:57   rejections or are they just like, Oh, I have to change some of the metadata in the description?

01:06:01   I just don't, I literally don't know what they're measuring here. So I don't think I have much of an

01:06:06   opinion about it cause I don't know what they're even claiming here other than, other than to claim

01:06:11   that you, what they're really saying here, the story is, well, I, I, I know you hear stories

01:06:16   about bad things in the app store, but suffice it to say that we are exerting a lot of gatekeeping

01:06:23   in order to curate the app store and make it safe for our users and just look, uh, 40% of the,

01:06:30   whatever this is are rejected. So look at the power of our creation. I I'd say that kind of

01:06:36   sidesteps the argument that they allow stuff into the app store that they shouldn't. Um,

01:06:41   and it's unclear what they're even claiming here, but I think that's the, the case he's trying to

01:06:45   make is just to remind people that this is why Apple does what it does is it's protecting you

01:06:50   from these apps that are bad or don't work or are lying to you. I recommend that people do listen to

01:07:00   this interview. Oh yes, they haven't. And one of the reasons I would recommend this is for the

01:07:09   little segment where they talk about future products because I mean, I don't know about you,

01:07:16   but I felt like Tim wasn't totally solid here and stumbled in a couple of ways that if you looked

01:07:30   into them enough, uh, was kind of interesting. Like just the, so basically they're talking about AR

01:07:37   and he says that he's very excited about AR. Kara, I love her confidence, just starts talking

01:07:43   about the mixed reality headset, like just talks about it as if we all know it's happening. And

01:07:48   then Tim starts talking about AR and saying like, if we're in this conversation right now,

01:07:55   uh, we could also see some charts and imagine if your listeners could see them as well. And I'm

01:08:01   kind of like, see them Tim, where, huh? Where am I seeing them? They're doing a video chat,

01:08:08   right? They're on, um, uh, web X cause our, our podcast interviews, we're seeing them on video

01:08:15   and they're seeing us too, right? That's what they do. Um, but it is a weird thing knowing that it's

01:08:20   a audio podcast. Using that as an example is a little bit strange. What I love about it is

01:08:26   Tim Cook, the very serious businessman who runs Apple talking in an interview says, okay, like

01:08:35   in a video chat, think it's like a FaceTime, right? They're like, yeah, Kara, you and me,

01:08:40   I see you, you see me, we talk, it's great, but you know what would be greater is if I could wave

01:08:46   my hand and put up a chart. Really Tim? A chart? Let me show you the customer sat on the iPhone.

01:08:56   Look at that. Look at that number now. And he waves it away. Now it's gone. Like I just,

01:09:01   I love this little example as a, I know it's probably not, but like as a peek into Tim Cook's

01:09:07   mind, whereas like reality would be so much better if we could call up charts and have them float in

01:09:13   the air around us while we're talking to other people. I think I want to believe he thinks that

01:09:19   I want to believe that that, that is, that is what the world needs to be is, you know,

01:09:24   bring your data with you. In fact, float it like a hologram. That's what I want to see.

01:09:29   It just felt to me that the discussion around this part was really, I don't know,

01:09:34   like it just felt like it was really kind of, to me anyway, leaning a little towards this idea of

01:09:39   like, we're working on something where you'll be able to see something, right? Like it's, this is,

01:09:44   this is where we're going now. It didn't feel so much the usual, like, hey, we don't talk about

01:09:51   products in our future and who knows what the future may hold. It seems a little bit more now,

01:09:57   like they are lifting the lid on this. Yeah. I mean, he's talked about it before,

01:10:03   but this is the thing that reminds me of, and, and, you know, everybody remember before the

01:10:08   Apple watch came out, Tim talking about how the wrist wearables is a big thing and the wrist is

01:10:14   an area of particular interest. Like, yeah, this is what Apple does when they are, when, when there's

01:10:21   talk in the market about what their product strategy is, but they haven't got anything

01:10:25   to announce yet. They start to acknowledge their interest in a category because it doesn't give

01:10:32   anything away about what the product is, but it does sort of acknowledge the fact that this

01:10:38   reporting is going on and essentially that it's accurate, at least in the broadest sense, which is,

01:10:43   you know, and this isn't new. He's been saying for a while now, of course, AR is an interest and

01:10:49   he was even, I would say clear about it here where it's very obviously there,

01:10:54   they've got a product and he's not ready to talk about it, but he's ready to talk about all the

01:10:58   reasons why AR is great. And then also the car, like a car project. So, references he has respect

01:11:08   for Tesla as a company and then says, you know, Carl's questioning him about cars, autonomy,

01:11:15   and Tim says, we investigate many things internally. Many don't see the light of day.

01:11:19   We'll see what Apple does. Yeah. I like this because the context he's putting on the car

01:11:26   project is, of course, we're looking at a car. Everybody knows we're looking at cars, but

01:11:31   we don't always make products when we're looking at something in that area. It doesn't always turn

01:11:39   into a product. And that's how he's setting the expectations about the car is he's not saying they

01:11:44   haven't looked at and aren't looking at cars. And she says, you bought an AI driving startup. Like,

01:11:50   come on. And I appreciate that he doesn't really deny it. He's like, we look at lots of stuff.

01:11:56   It doesn't mean it's going to be a product. And I honestly, the impression I get is that's sort

01:12:02   of where this product is, that the AR product is coming. The car, they're working on it,

01:12:07   but it's not at a point where like they're certain that they're going to do it. And I think that is

01:12:12   Apple's process. They're not even ready to be secretive about it yet. They're willing to say,

01:12:18   oh, I don't know, maybe. And what's the, I think Apple's famous secrecy, right, is about product

01:12:23   detail and product secrecy. I think this is an acknowledgement just as that Apple Watch statement

01:12:30   about the risk being an area of interest was an acknowledgement that Apple is happy to talk about

01:12:35   areas that they're enthusiastic about for the future that might be areas Apple's interested in.

01:12:42   Like it's willing to go that far, which is not something that was necessarily true before. I

01:12:47   don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think Steve Jobs said to Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher

01:12:52   on stage at the D conference back in the day, oh yeah, a bigger iPhone would be interesting,

01:12:58   wouldn't it? You know, yes, tablet computing, very interesting. I don't think he went even that far,

01:13:06   right? But Tim Cook's willing to go to that point, but no further. And I think this car statement is

01:13:12   very much in line with what we think we know about this, which is they're working on something,

01:13:16   but it's not really close. And they're probably not even sure if it's a real thing yet.

01:13:21   - He also said that he won't be CEO in 10 years time, which is,

01:13:26   when you hear him say it, it's like, whoa, hang on. But then think, 10 years is a long time,

01:13:36   right? This year is Tim's 10th year of being CEO. In August of this year, it would have been 10

01:13:44   years. And so it's kind of like surprising and not surprising at the same time.

01:13:51   - Yeah, well, I looked it up, he's 60. And you're 60, you've been CEO of Apple,

01:13:58   the world's largest in some measures company for a decade. And I think what he said was,

01:14:05   the end isn't in sight. I don't have any immediate plans of any kind, but 10 years is a long time.

01:14:12   And I'm thinking, and you're 70 in 10 years. And although 65 isn't the retirement age that it used

01:14:18   to be, at the same time, he has obviously made a lot of money in a very high stress job. I do

01:14:27   wonder about his personality, if he's really gonna be able to retire, or if it's more like,

01:14:32   just take a step back, do some corporate boards, do some philanthropy, and stop grinding quite

01:14:38   as much. But he seems like a grinder, he'll probably be a grinder forever.

01:14:41   - You imagine he would probably be on the board at Apple for as long as he's alive.

01:14:44   - Would not surprise me, right? Look at Bob Iger, that kind of thing, where there's a long-time CEO

01:14:51   takes a step back, but is still around, at least for a while. That wouldn't surprise me. But at the

01:14:57   same time, yeah. Does he wanna be 20 years CEO of Apple and still working at Apple when he's 70?

01:15:03   My guess is no. And it seems very clear that he doesn't know when he's gonna leave,

01:15:10   and it's not soon, but he can't see him being there in 10 years. And that's, yeah, you're right.

01:15:18   I think I share, what surprised me is that he didn't hedge about it. That was the surprise.

01:15:24   The surprise thing is not what he said, which is 10 years, essentially when I'm 70, nah,

01:15:29   I'll be retired by then. I'm surprised he said it, instead of just saying, well, you never know,

01:15:35   I'm committed here, I think I'll be here for many more years, I don't know how many.

01:15:39   - I love my job, who knows?

01:15:40   - Right, but instead he was sort of like, yeah, I can't see it in 10 years,

01:15:42   that's probably too much. That's it.

01:15:43   - And he did do the whole thing of like, I love it, I can't, and this is, again,

01:15:48   I understand from him, it's like, I just, I love it so much here and I can't,

01:15:52   I don't have anything else I want to do and I can't imagine what else I would do.

01:15:56   And it's in the same way that I could imagine someone like him still being CEO in 10 years time,

01:16:02   because if you're an ambitious person, he's reached the top.

01:16:05   There really isn't much further for him to go.

01:16:10   - No, there's nowhere to go from there.

01:16:11   - Except politics, right? It's like the only place I can imagine.

01:16:15   - I was gonna say, unless he wants to be the secretary of commerce or something, but yeah.

01:16:19   Actually, what I envision is he says, "Carat, but imagine if we were in augmented reality,

01:16:24   I could bring up a chart about the average retirement age and how it's changed over time."

01:16:28   But I can't.

01:16:29   - But I can't.

01:16:30   - And what a shame. But you know, I was like, I'm intrigued. I mean, you know, Apple obviously

01:16:37   has this history, which is odd, right? Their CEOship as a company, it's just been a very

01:16:45   strange path to this point. What, they just turned 45, Apple as a company, I think.

01:16:53   - Yeah, sounds about right.

01:16:54   - Which means that Tim is fast approaching like a quarter or whatever. No, it's not fast

01:16:58   approaching, but kind of in or around. And you know, you look at what Steve did and he

01:17:04   sat down as CEO. I mean, he was in ill health, but there is at least that idea of Tim could

01:17:10   one day just stop being CEO and just be involved in the things he wants to be involved in.

01:17:15   Which I imagine him doing, I think maybe sooner rather than later. Who knows? We'll see.

01:17:22   Because how long do you want to do one job, you know?

01:17:24   - Right.

01:17:25   - With the same set of responsibilities. Ten years is a really long time.

01:17:30   - And I'd imagine if you add in the time when he was COO and operations guy, like he's been

01:17:39   grinding. The truth is he is a grinder. It's always going to be a part of him, but he's

01:17:43   been grinding for a very long time. And you know, does he deserve the ability to step

01:17:49   off the treadmill at some point? Not literally. He'll always be on the treadmill.

01:17:53   - Because he's so hip.

01:17:54   - But like the work treadmill a little bit, you know, go to more college football games,

01:17:59   make some charts and show them to people in reality. Like the things he loves.

01:18:04   - He just becomes head of customer satisfaction. That's like his dream job.

01:18:07   - Exactly.

01:18:07   - But no one would let him do it before.

01:18:08   - Right. Like who's to, that makes sense, right? I think you want a little reward after you've

01:18:17   reached the top. So yeah, I think it's not unreasonable at all. I'm just surprised that

01:18:21   he said it out loud. Because it will begin a larger conversation about succession planning

01:18:27   and Apple and all that. But I do appreciate that he said, you know, nobody get excited.

01:18:31   It's not going to happen soon. Ten years is a very long time and I don't see myself doing this job

01:18:36   in ten years.

01:18:38   - Yeah. If you imagine people like the aforementioned John Turness listening today,

01:18:43   if you were being like, oh, yes, I'll take it. Because he was one of those people referenced in

01:18:51   that Bloomberg article, right? It's like this guy could be the CEO one day.

01:18:54   - Today the executive webpage, tomorrow the world.

01:18:58   - This is a short interview really considering the amount of stuff covered. It's like 30

01:19:04   something minutes. I will say it's one of my favorite Tim Cook interviews because it was

01:19:10   much more conversational. And plus Kara Swisher knows what she's talking about,

01:19:14   where Tim is usually in environments where it's more mainstream media and she presses him in just

01:19:21   the right way to get some of the answers that she wants. So I really liked her. I really recommend

01:19:25   you check it out. - She's the best. And they have a rapport.

01:19:30   They've talked a bunch. - Yes.

01:19:31   - At different times and different venues. - Preference having lunch one day, right?

01:19:34   That was like a cute little thing. - That's a good, they have a rapport.

01:19:38   And she's a really good interviewer. And I would say, I think Tim Cook has gotten so good at this

01:19:45   stuff that he wasn't 10 years ago. So yeah. - This week's episode is brought to you by

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01:21:32   Smile for their support of this show and RelayFN. Let's do some #AskUpgradeQuestions

01:21:38   to finish out this week's episode and the first comes from Chadwick. Chadwick says on last week's

01:21:45   episode Jason referred to inserting a "bunch of TKs" when writing to remind him that he needed

01:21:52   to check something before publishing. What does this mean? That was a little easter egg

01:21:58   for people out there and I phrased it in a way that you didn't need to ask but I guess people

01:22:04   asked. In journalism it is common for a whole bunch of, there are a whole bunch of things that

01:22:09   are used by journalists to mark stuff as not being for public viewing and they're all, I believe the

01:22:21   tradition is they're all misspelled. They're all things that don't come up in actual language very

01:22:30   often in English anyway and the idea there is if you write, so like my the year after I left,

01:22:38   it wasn't on my watch, my college newspaper had, they were laying out their sports page and they

01:22:46   had a bunch of fake headlines and the headlines read like real headlines. I believe the one that

01:22:51   was particularly bad was "track pulls up lame" but they're all joke headlines because the stories

01:23:02   weren't in yet and what happened is the stories came in and I think they even updated the headlines

01:23:10   but there were two versions of the page. There was the page that had the bad headlines on it and the

01:23:14   page that had the real content on it that wasn't fake and just placeholder stuff and the person

01:23:20   pasting up the page couldn't tell the difference and thought that the fake one was real.

01:23:24   This is why you don't do that. This is why you have your headlines have TK in them or question

01:23:30   marks or other things that are misspelled and so a tradition in journalism is you put these markers

01:23:36   in that everybody knows means they're not real and don't send that to the internet. Don't put that in

01:23:42   the paper. Don't do it. TK stands for "I believe to come" except with a K. Why? Because TK is not

01:23:53   a letter combination that is common and it became a standard thing to refer to missing information

01:24:02   in stories. So you might be writing a story and you need a comment from somebody and when you're

01:24:06   writing on your story it says "company comment TK" or "name of person TK" or sometimes I had

01:24:14   this happen where I'm writing on my iPad and there's a thing I need to look up on the Mac.

01:24:19   I need to very specifically say like "use this menu to go to this thing to go to this thing"

01:24:23   and I'm not on a Mac right then and I don't want to break my writing flow and I'll just put in like

01:24:29   "Mac menu TK". Other things that journalists do, headlines are often referred to as heads HED.

01:24:36   The secondary headline is a deck D-E-K and the lead, the first paragraph is L-E-D-E.

01:24:44   Paragraphs by the way are graphs G-R-A-F. These are all journalism terms but they're also

01:24:52   misspelled intentionally so that when you see them you know "don't print that". So the TK's thing is

01:25:01   like literally "this isn't done yet, this isn't ready, fill this in later" and it also has become

01:25:08   to mean I think for a lot of journalists over time it's funny because one it's your own personal

01:25:14   struggles of "oh boy I haven't finished this thing yet I still got all these TKs in there"

01:25:18   and also if you've ever worked with somebody who's a procrastinator or is very late with their work

01:25:23   or misses deadlines it can become a kind of rueful joke about that we had a person who blew all their

01:25:30   deadlines in journalism school and we had a going away thing for our professor who was leaving the

01:25:36   journalism school at the end of the semester and one of the jokes in the thing that we made for

01:25:42   him was that there was a whole little box that was by one of our fellow students who was always late

01:25:47   with their work and the box had a big headline and a picture and then a large space for a story

01:25:53   and it just said "Story TK" and we all had a good laugh and I remember it all this time later

01:25:59   because it was pretty funny. Anyway that's the story of the TKs it just means it's a placeholder

01:26:04   and before I worked in my college newspaper I would do it with question marks I just have a

01:26:09   bunch of question marks because again very clearly not a thing but TK is what is just generally used

01:26:16   culturally. I also use brackets a lot I put like three or four brackets around a note to myself

01:26:21   as a way of like there's you know I'm not gonna miss this that there's the minute you've seen this

01:26:26   because you've read my drafts yeah I'll often like do multi brackets and notes to myself and that's

01:26:30   because that part is it will jump out at me there's there's no mark down for four brackets

01:26:38   it's just like hey this part's not done. The more you need to remember the more brackets there are

01:26:45   yeah exactly eight brackets twenty brackets oh boy that's a bad one. TK is particularly useful

01:26:50   because it's easy to search too right like you're searching yeah well that's that's it it's an

01:26:55   uncommon letter combination and that's part of the reason that that exists. Mikhail asks last week you

01:27:01   were answering the question of which iPad Pro somebody should buy but you didn't consider the

01:27:05   iPad Air was there any reason for that? It was an oversight I mean I was just thinking about

01:27:12   comparing the iPad Pros which because that's usually the way that you would compare the

01:27:16   iPads but of course the iPad Air does fit more in the iPad Pro bracket at the moment you know we

01:27:23   spoke about this when it came out. I want to give just a quick overview again for like why you may

01:27:27   or may not want to consider the iPad Air instead of an iPad Pro so looks very similar right as very

01:27:34   comparable specs it has in some ways a more modern processor the design is great it has magic keyboard

01:27:42   capability compatibility I should say and works with all the things you would want

01:27:47   has the cool Apple pencil 2 charging on the top it lacks ProMotion which is the high refresh rate

01:27:53   display has two speakers instead of four touch id instead of face id that could be a pro or con

01:27:59   I would say having used the iPad specifically the iPad is best for face id face id works better on

01:28:05   the iPad than on the iPhone for me. The iPad Air starts at $599 instead of $799 like the iPad Pro

01:28:15   but that $599 is for 64 gigabytes of storage which I think is unacceptable on an iPad

01:28:22   it maxes out at 256 gigabytes of storage which is then $150 cheaper than the 11 inch iPad Pro

01:28:30   rather than $200 so it's a good deal not a home run but yeah they asked about comparing the iPad

01:28:38   Pros which is why we compared the iPad Pros the iPad Air. That's what I was going to say yeah much

01:28:41   shorter answer which is but they didn't ask about the iPad Air. I know but I I I I'm sorry question

01:28:47   I do wish I would have at least brought up the iPad Air as another consideration. For me the iPad

01:28:53   Pro is still a better device and I think worth the $150 premium because the $200 difference like I

01:29:00   don't think people should be buying a 64 gigabyte iPad I just do not I think like you want to put

01:29:06   video on this thing eventually when you're going somewhere and you're just going to run out of space

01:29:10   so fast so I think that you would want to look at the 256 and then you've got $150 difference

01:29:17   and I think for me the speakers the promotion display and the face ID warrant the premium but

01:29:25   it's up to you. Rajeev asks do you think that Apple should revert the iOS 14 method used to

01:29:34   input and adjust time and go back to the scroll wheels? Wow I don't think I have much of an opinion

01:29:40   about this. I think it's a little clunky I think they did it for compatibility reasons on the Mac

01:29:48   but on a touch device the I thought the wheels were actually pretty good and I have run into

01:29:55   that thing where suddenly instead of picking from a calendar picker I'm typing dates into a date

01:30:03   field that's no good so I don't I don't know all the details here it doesn't come up with me a lot

01:30:08   I haven't formed a really deep opinion about it but whatever they did isn't it isn't better it's

01:30:15   just different and I think they did it primarily because they wanted some compatibility across

01:30:22   devices but it's a lesser interface if you're on a touch device I guess I would say. My preference

01:30:31   is the current version. I much prefer it I like being I like being able to type the time in

01:30:38   and I like getting the full date picker so I can swipe through months and hit the date that I want

01:30:44   and also see dates what day they are in the week and a calendar for you rather than the

01:30:48   tumble rolling things. You can again I know you know this but I would just say before we

01:30:56   to alleviate the follow-up it is kind of possible to scroll the current version but it's difficult

01:31:03   it's nowhere near as comfortable to do I do do it sometimes but I will typically type the time in.

01:31:10   So here's my answer for Rajiv do I think Apple should revert? No I don't I think they should

01:31:17   make it better but I don't think they should revert it and go back to the old way. No I think

01:31:21   refinements of the current version will be better than going back to the old version because I think

01:31:27   honestly like I'd never really thought about it but as soon as those spinning tumbling things

01:31:32   were gone I was super happy because they're so clunky and old and they should think of new ways

01:31:37   to do things. Whether this current way is the right way or not is up for debate but that is like

01:31:42   one of the oldest paradigms of iOS design that still stuck around. We just blew the minds of

01:31:49   people in the discord which is I think one of my criticisms of the design is that although you can

01:31:53   spin those numbers it's so easy to tap in them and then you're doing text entry which I think is not

01:31:59   the best although people can differ about that. So one of the things I would say is can we make

01:32:04   that more discoverable? Yeah it's not not very discoverable at all. And Stitch asked what is

01:32:10   a feature that Apple could put on the new iPad Pro that will blow you away? Thunderbolt ports on the

01:32:17   side instead of the bottom or bottom instead of the side depends on your orientation I guess but

01:32:24   like more horizontalness. Is that a thing? Blow me away I don't know you've got something in the doc

01:32:32   that I have to. I mean look if we're looking for blow me away right there's blow me away which is

01:32:37   yeah what if they what if they did like classic in the Mac OS 10 where you could sort of like

01:32:42   run a Mac in a you know just have a Mac view that's like Mac OS. Right so Mac OS. Blow me away is

01:32:48   Mac OS support right that's that's part one. Blow me away part two is a full external display mode

01:32:55   that uses windowing for iPad OS apps. Oh windowing yeah so I think that's my number one wish feature

01:33:03   is proper external display mode however it is formed that's the one I'm not sure that's really

01:33:09   enabled by hardware really but it might be a new feature of the of an iPad Pro though you know what

01:33:16   I mean that's that's fine with me yeah which I think that if they do a full external display

01:33:21   thing they will do it it's like hey this is part of the new iPad Pro and the windowing thing was

01:33:27   something that I thought up today of like I was thinking about the external display mode and was

01:33:32   thinking if I would kind of want to be able to take more advantage of a much larger screen and I

01:33:38   don't think just making single view iPad apps full screen is what I want because I don't like full

01:33:45   screen mode on the Mac whilst I also have mentioned before I find windows to be a bit messy it is

01:33:53   better than on a large screen than just using one app at a time for in my own personal yeah we

01:33:58   argued about this a long time ago on a previous episode where you basically said windowing feels

01:34:03   old and they should come up with something different yes I I'm not entirely convinced

01:34:07   that the reason we haven't gotten proper external display mode on iPad OS is not that they have been

01:34:12   struggling with finding the right way to handle iPad OS apps displaying on a very large monitor

01:34:19   right like how do you do that in a way that makes sense and it probably requires if not pure

01:34:24   windowing some sort of snapped or tiled you know if you can imagine fitting two or three different

01:34:30   iPad apps on that external display do they appear as little windows that are literally just the

01:34:36   screen size of an iPad and do they kind of like magnetically snap together and things it's a hard

01:34:42   problem and getting an external out on an iPad is actually not only can you do it now but I'm sure

01:34:50   they could do without mirroring now I'm sure they could but what goes on that screen and right now

01:34:54   it would be one or two apps at full screen and it's no good like that's no good that's not good

01:35:01   enough and so I think that's where the hurdle is is the UI in the software for how you manage apps

01:35:08   running on a big external screen but that would be my number one too although running running Mac OS

01:35:13   on an iPad is hilarious and yes that would be awesome sure if you would like to send in a

01:35:18   question for us to answer on the episode just send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or

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01:35:39   I would also like to thank our sponsors for this week's episode that is the fine folk over

01:35:44   at pdfpem from smile pingdom and memberful uh Jason before we go would you like to tell our

01:35:50   listeners about another relay fm show yeah you should check out top four uh this is hosted by

01:35:56   the armance tiff and marco um you may know marco from being tiff's husband um and they make top

01:36:04   four lists of just about anything I've been on a few times we did a member special where we listed

01:36:09   our top four salad items items that go in a salad we did a classic one where lauren and I joined

01:36:14   tiff and marco and we tasted at the time every flavor but one of uh lakroy uh seltzers oh boy

01:36:23   there is a lot of burping after that um it's a really funny fun thing uh listening to husband

01:36:29   and wife trying out all sorts of strange things and then and then ranking them in a top four list

01:36:35   that is often not for long that's part of the joy of it so indulge in the sheer randomness of top

01:36:41   four uh check it out relay.fm top four it's fun it's fun don't you need more fun in your life

01:36:47   or just search for top four wherever you get your podcasts if you want to find jason online you can

01:36:53   go to sixcolors.com and the incomparable.com and jason hosts many shows here on relay fm

01:36:58   as do i jason is at jay snell online i am at i mike i m y k e and we'll be back next time until

01:37:06   then say goodbye jason snow this is me saying goodbye with a chart that also says goodbye

01:37:11   in augmented reality