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00:00:00   [BEEP]

00:00:00   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 342.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, Hover, and Uni Pizza Ovens.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hello, Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:23   I'm good, I'm gonna see if I can get it right this time.

00:00:25   Jason, I have a #SnellTalk question for you, from Marlies, who asks,

00:00:29   "Are you a short shower person or a long shower person?"

00:00:34   Well, unfortunately Marlies has not given us more information about what defines short and long.

00:00:39   Yeah, sometimes I get a question like this, and I think to myself,

00:00:46   I will put this in there because I know Jason will bring that up, because I've thought it too.

00:00:52   It's like, there is no definition of short or long.

00:00:54   No.

00:00:54   But sometimes I like to just give you these questions and see

00:00:57   how you define them or where you go with them, you know?

00:01:01   Okay, well, I mean, I'm sure that if I'm really running late, I can hurry up my shower.

00:01:09   And I'm sure that if my back is sore and I need to stand under the hot water, I can stretch it out.

00:01:17   But in general, this is the answer I'm gonna give, in general,

00:01:21   my entire shower process from beginning to end, and that starts with turning on the water,

00:01:29   and it ends with me leaving to go to the rest of the house,

00:01:35   because I'm done and dry and clothed and everything.

00:01:38   It's 15 minutes, so.

00:01:40   Okay.

00:01:41   I don't know, is that short?

00:01:43   That feels short.

00:01:45   Because I would say like 15 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes in the shower is long,

00:01:52   but if you're including like everything in that 15 minutes, I don't think it's very long.

00:01:59   Yeah, I mean, my standard shower, there's not a lot to it.

00:02:03   You wash yourself, you wash your body, you wash your hair.

00:02:08   I shave.

00:02:09   I shave in the shower.

00:02:10   Little tip there.

00:02:11   Shower shaver.

00:02:13   Shave in the shower.

00:02:14   Because it's why?

00:02:15   Why?

00:02:16   Because it's warm in there.

00:02:18   Why would I shave out of the shower?

00:02:21   That's not, no, not gonna happen.

00:02:23   So, and then I get out.

00:02:25   I wash my face, and then I'm done, and I towel off, and that's it.

00:02:30   That's what's great about dithering is the 15-minute long podcast.

00:02:34   It's perfect for that.

00:02:37   I will get through a dithering when I do my shower.

00:02:41   Yep.

00:02:42   It's definitely a good shower podcast.

00:02:45   Yeah.

00:02:46   Thank you to Marlies for sending in that question.

00:02:48   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer to open an episode of Upgrade,

00:02:52   just send in a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk or use question mark #snowtalk in the RelayFM members Discord.

00:02:58   I have a bit of an upstream/follow-up for you, Jason.

00:03:01   Yes.

00:03:01   Last night, Ted Lasso picked up a trio of awards at the Critics' Choice Awards.

00:03:06   Hannah Waddingham won Best Supporting Actress in a Comedy.

00:03:11   Jason Sudeikis won for Best Actor.

00:03:13   In this economy?

00:03:14   In this economy.

00:03:15   In this a comedy?

00:03:17   In this a comedy.

00:03:18   You knew what I did.

00:03:19   I did the opposite.

00:03:20   I hate that you picked that up.

00:03:22   I thought I was gonna get by.

00:03:23   And Ted Lasso, the show, won Best Comedy.

00:03:27   So my question here, I don't know the answer to this, but it did just pop into my head.

00:03:32   Is Ted Lasso the winningest show for Apple?

00:03:36   Like, has this won the most awards now?

00:03:38   I think so, right?

00:03:39   It's won five total awards.

00:03:41   I don't know what kind of minor awards the--

00:03:44   Critics' Choice Awards.

00:03:45   --Moorings show got last year.

00:03:46   Right.

00:03:47   Well, I mean, it depends on where you draw the line and all of that.

00:03:52   But it's certainly the most or almost among the most for Apple.

00:03:58   I think it's hard to say anything but that it's Apple's highest profile TV show at this

00:04:05   point.

00:04:06   I think it's effective though it has picked up the highest profile award with the Golden

00:04:09   Globe.

00:04:10   Like, I think the best actor in a comedy, Golden Globe, is better than anything that

00:04:14   they've won.

00:04:15   I think the most they got was--

00:04:16   Well, I mean, Jennifer Anderson won a Golden Globe last year though, right?

00:04:19   So I think--

00:04:20   Oh, did she?

00:04:21   I forgot that.

00:04:22   I think they're kind of tied for that.

00:04:23   But if you add in these kind of other awards, I don't know if Ted Lasso is better or-- but

00:04:29   certainly it's up there.

00:04:30   Yeah.

00:04:31   I mean, awards season isn't done yet.

00:04:33   I think Ted Lasso currently is the crown jewel even though money and profile would maybe

00:04:38   suggest otherwise up until this point.

00:04:41   But I think the Ted Lasso marketing machine for season two, I expect to be astronomic

00:04:46   from Apple.

00:04:47   I hope they figure out the deal with merch by then, right?

00:04:51   I really want--

00:04:52   The deal between Sony and Apple and everybody else to--

00:04:55   The Richmond jersey, big time.

00:04:56   Yeah.

00:04:57   They're going to-- they're going to have a full set of Richmond kit.

00:05:01   You know, get your Richmond jersey, get your Richmond scarf.

00:05:05   All of that stuff.

00:05:06   I see a lot of notes in our document here about Paramount Plus.

00:05:11   Oh, yeah.

00:05:12   Paramount Plus.

00:05:13   Well, it came out.

00:05:14   They changed-- a week ago, they changed from CBS All Access to Paramount Plus.

00:05:21   They've been loading-- they've been loading content.

00:05:25   So let me back up.

00:05:26   So we've been talking about CBS All Access for a while.

00:05:29   That's where all the Star Trek shows are.

00:05:31   CBS and Viacom were separate companies.

00:05:34   Viacom owns the Paramount movie studio and a bunch of cable channels, Comedy Central,

00:05:38   and things like that.

00:05:40   They were originally owned together, or at least at one point in their history, they

00:05:45   were owned together.

00:05:46   They were separated because it was felt like the broadcast network was too old and not

00:05:52   interesting and didn't have enough value and that the cable stuff was going to have great

00:05:56   value if it wasn't settled down with CBS.

00:05:59   That didn't happen.

00:06:00   In fact, the reverse happened.

00:06:01   CBS turned out to be much more valuable.

00:06:03   But because they're owned by the same people, they shoved them back together.

00:06:07   Various executives left at various points, but in the end, they shoved them back together.

00:06:11   And what they wanted was one streaming service, and CBS All Access was already up and running.

00:06:16   So the idea was they would roll all the content from Viacom into CBS All Access and rename

00:06:21   it, and they decided to call it Paramount Plus, which I think is fine.

00:06:24   I mean, other than the fact that everything is a plus, I think Paramount as a name for

00:06:28   it is perfectly fine.

00:06:30   And they have been rolling content into it for a while.

00:06:33   I saw that the daily show, the regular old daily show started showing up in CBS All Access

00:06:38   a few weeks ago.

00:06:39   Like they've been, the switchover is a soft kind of switchover.

00:06:43   Like they've been loading it with content and the service is essentially CBS All Access.

00:06:48   The CBS All Access app just updated to become the Paramount Plus app.

00:06:53   So it's built on the CBS stuff.

00:06:56   And the CBS All Access software wasn't great.

00:06:59   Like the Apple TV app and the iOS app, they weren't great.

00:07:04   They were okay.

00:07:05   They were lesser and they were missing features.

00:07:09   Paramount Plus app, I feel like, I mean, I think it's really bad.

00:07:15   It's worse.

00:07:16   I think they've taken a step back, I suspect, because there were a bunch of, they had a

00:07:20   launch date and they had to make those features work and they had to reskin it and they had

00:07:24   to do all of the reorganization stuff to get it up and running on the launch date.

00:07:29   And I understand how that kind of thing happens and how they probably knew they were going

00:07:37   to be picking up the pieces for a while.

00:07:39   But in terms of not making a good first impression, the navigation kind of doesn't work very well.

00:07:45   They do have a little set of brand tiles that are like the Disney brand tiles, right?

00:07:49   Where it's like CBS Comedy Central, whatever their most important kind of properties are.

00:07:57   But the navigation there isn't great.

00:07:58   The stuff that's a level below them, like if you click on CBS and go in, what you get

00:08:04   is sort of featured shows and then A to Z. That's it.

00:08:08   Those are your choices.

00:08:10   Shows A to Z and featured shows.

00:08:12   CBS All Access was already missing a bunch of things.

00:08:15   Like it doesn't have a watch list.

00:08:16   There's a watch list on the website, but like the apps, you can't just say, "I want to watch

00:08:19   this movie later.

00:08:20   Can you put it on my list so that I can come back and find it easily later?"

00:08:24   It doesn't have anything like that.

00:08:26   It doesn't have the concept of following a particular TV show.

00:08:30   If you watch a particular TV show, it is smart enough to know that when the new episode of

00:08:34   that show comes out, if you're at the end, it will say, "Oh, the next episode is out,"

00:08:40   and it'll put that in the "this for you" kind of section.

00:08:42   But it won't let you mark a particular show and say, "Follow this show."

00:08:48   Instead, it sort of like just does it in the context of, "You were watching episode three.

00:08:54   Would you like to continue as a little tile?"

00:08:57   Which is not great.

00:08:59   And the ones that really got me, so like The Daily Show with Trevor Noah or The Steven

00:09:05   Colbert, The Late Show with Steven Colbert, these are our daily talk shows, right?

00:09:10   Daily comedy shows and talk shows.

00:09:13   And I'm struck by the fact that I was watching like a Colbert from last week, and it keeps

00:09:19   telling me like, "You still got the last three quarters of the Colbert from Wednesday last

00:09:24   week."

00:09:25   And it's like, "Yeah, but why aren't you showing me like, it's Monday now, so it would be the

00:09:28   Friday Colbert."

00:09:29   But like...

00:09:30   Steven: Just give me the next one.

00:09:31   Right.

00:09:32   Like if it's Tuesday, they should be like, "Here's last night's Colbert.

00:09:34   Here's last night's Daily Show."

00:09:35   And it doesn't do it.

00:09:36   Instead, it's like, "You still got that last 10 minutes of Wednesday."

00:09:40   And like, I don't...

00:09:42   That's not...

00:09:43   So it's not really getting that concept for the stuff that's daily, which is frustrating.

00:09:51   And then the new show, "60 Minutes," CBS news show, "60 Minutes," I've actually kind of gotten

00:09:55   into watching it on CBS All Access.

00:09:59   And the reason for that is it's a magazine show.

00:10:01   Once a week, they do like three stories.

00:10:06   And on CBS All Access, they make the...

00:10:11   The show comes onto the service, and this is still true with Paramount Plus, the show

00:10:15   comes onto the service after it's aired on the West Coast.

00:10:20   And the idea there is that they're kind of trying to protect their affiliates, right?

00:10:24   So you can...

00:10:26   Otherwise, if it was on the service after it aired on the East Coast, it airs at 7 p.m.,

00:10:34   so at like 5 p.m. Pacific, I could watch it.

00:10:37   And they're like, "Oh, no, we want you to watch it at 7 on your local channel."

00:10:41   So they hold it.

00:10:42   But one of the things I noticed is the segments, they didn't hold.

00:10:45   The segments got posted right after it aired on the East Coast.

00:10:49   And I didn't always get to it, but I was often like, "Oh, it's 7 o'clock and I'm sitting

00:10:53   down to watch TV on Sunday night.

00:10:55   What's on '60 Minutes'?"

00:10:56   And I realized I could look at the segments that were...

00:10:59   Instead of waiting for it to air, I could just look at the segments and pick the segments

00:11:02   I cared about and not watch the others.

00:11:05   Well, on Paramount Plus, not only are the 60-minute segments gone, which I keep feeling

00:11:12   like it's digital.

00:11:13   Like should you not...

00:11:15   I really like the idea that like you can just watch what the latest stories are and pick

00:11:19   the stories you like.

00:11:20   And it's extra perplexing because they've launched a new thing called, I believe, "60

00:11:26   Minutes Plus."

00:11:27   Of course.

00:11:30   Which is...

00:11:31   It's an interesting idea.

00:11:32   The idea is they're going to do more stories, more 60-minute style stories, and they're

00:11:34   going to roll them out digitally.

00:11:36   So they're all segments, essentially.

00:11:37   They don't do a 60...

00:11:38   As far as I can tell, there's no 60 Minutes Plus show that's an hour long.

00:11:42   It's just, you know, they drop a segment that's 17 minutes long.

00:11:46   So they're doing it for that, but they're not doing it for the actual segments anymore.

00:11:49   Those have disappeared.

00:11:50   But this isn't even...

00:11:51   And that's too bad.

00:11:52   Like, why would you remove that feature?

00:11:54   But the thing that really gets me about it is 60 Minutes, you can browse the episodes,

00:12:01   but it doesn't have any season data in, so far as I can tell.

00:12:06   So last night, I wanted to look at 60 Minutes.

00:12:08   There are no segments there.

00:12:09   So I'm like, "All right, well, I'll just go to the episode when the episode drops."

00:12:14   And I look at the most recent episode in their list, and it's from like three years ago.

00:12:22   And it turns out that they have put in...

00:12:27   That the list is sorted by episode number, most recent at the top.

00:12:32   But episode number, when you collapse all of the seasons that they have on the service,

00:12:39   means that they're like...

00:12:41   Basically it's stuff from years ago, and then you scroll back, and eventually you'll find

00:12:45   it.

00:12:46   And it's literally like there are four episode 24s.

00:12:49   There's 2021, 2020, 2019, and 2018.

00:12:53   So you scroll back, it's like 24, 24, 24, 24, 23, 23, 23, 23, 22, 22.

00:12:59   It's so confusing.

00:13:02   It's just terrible.

00:13:03   - Yeah, this is an issue I've had with a TV app, with a few shows, where it messes up

00:13:08   the seasons and just puts all the episode numbers together.

00:13:11   And it's absolutely perplexing thing.

00:13:13   I have this issue with The Office for me.

00:13:15   I bought the whole Office collection from iTunes.

00:13:18   And the first three or four seasons, they just put them all in a line, irrespective

00:13:24   of the season.

00:13:25   - Yeah, well, so you know how bad that is to do that.

00:13:29   You can't do that.

00:13:30   It's not in order.

00:13:31   And again, it's a bug.

00:13:33   I'm sure they'll fix it.

00:13:34   But it just everywhere I turned in that Paramount Plus app, where they're trying to make a good

00:13:39   impression, they did not make a good impression.

00:13:44   And knowing the old CBS app, I was struck by the regressions.

00:13:48   And I wonder what of that is technical.

00:13:51   Like, well, there are things that we had to do in order to get it up on running as Paramount

00:13:55   Plus that broke some stuff and we'll fix it.

00:13:59   I can understand that.

00:14:00   But I do wonder how much of that is executives kind of monkeying with the premise that they

00:14:05   had before.

00:14:06   Like, well, why are there 60 minute segments?

00:14:09   Take those out.

00:14:10   But like to have...

00:14:12   It just, they got a lot of work to do.

00:14:14   This is what I'm saying.

00:14:15   Plus, it doesn't even go back to the fact that they have issues with...

00:14:20   I think their descriptive video stuff frequently breaks and their captions are sometimes like

00:14:24   not synced properly.

00:14:26   And like, there's just, they got a lot of technical issues there.

00:14:28   So they spent a lot of money on that Super Bowl ad and all the other marketing that they're

00:14:34   doing.

00:14:35   And I don't...

00:14:36   They should, right?

00:14:38   But what happened to their app development?

00:14:42   That's my question.

00:14:43   What happened there?

00:14:44   Because it's not good.

00:14:46   It's really bad.

00:14:47   I guess it's a shame that I'm not surprised because I feel like this just happens more

00:14:55   often than not that like service launches and its app is bad.

00:15:01   I feel like this is just a thing for me with the Apple TV.

00:15:05   Like my long bugbear of Now TV, which is the Sky Digital platform.

00:15:12   They updated their app completely and it's just worse in a bunch of ways.

00:15:16   It just inexplicable things that I don't even understand.

00:15:19   Like if I search for John Oliver, nothing.

00:15:24   If I search for Last Week Tonight, it will find John Oliver.

00:15:27   Even though the show is called Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, it says it in text on screen.

00:15:32   I don't understand how you call it.

00:15:34   Like just all of the UI is terrible and none of it.

00:15:37   It's not that it doesn't meet Apple's conventions, but it doesn't mean it's bad.

00:15:42   It is just bad.

00:15:43   Like it's just bad to use on the Apple TV, which tells me it would be bad to use everywhere

00:15:48   because the problems with this application's UI, I think would be prevalent everywhere.

00:15:52   It's just nothing's categorized in a way that makes any sense.

00:15:55   There is absolutely no, "Hey, do you want to resume this?"

00:15:58   Like none of that.

00:15:59   It's just so, so terrible.

00:16:01   So I understand.

00:16:02   I can sympathize.

00:16:04   I just don't get it.

00:16:05   Like the amount of money that these companies make, I just don't understand how they're

00:16:10   not able to channel that into development of the only thing that they have, which is

00:16:14   their application.

00:16:15   I wonder how much of it is that the executives who are making the decisions are well versed

00:16:22   whether they came from this as a background or not, they're well versed in marketing,

00:16:27   right?

00:16:28   In image, in marketing, how's our rollout going to work?

00:16:31   Where are we going to put our ads?

00:16:33   What's the mountain of entertainment?

00:16:34   They spent months getting all of their stars to record bits on green screens for them to

00:16:39   put together for this whole ad campaign, right?

00:16:43   It was not a halfway maneuver.

00:16:47   It was not something that they slapped together at the last minute.

00:16:52   There was a huge strategy over months to launch Paramount Plus.

00:16:58   And yet I wonder if they think in terms of getting the marketing locked down and that

00:17:06   there's just a technical disconnect where they're like, "Well, you know, and the

00:17:10   nerds will do it," or, "Oh, and we'll update the app."

00:17:13   And they don't, clearly they don't provide a level of feedback and supervision and detail

00:17:20   over what the customer experience looks like.

00:17:24   But this is the thing that baffles me and I think is a mistake when you're a company

00:17:28   like CBS Viacom and you do something like this, which is clearly you missed a step because

00:17:34   you think that the marketing is what's important and the marketing is important, but the marketing

00:17:39   has a result if you do a good job, which is people check out your service.

00:17:44   The product, and here's another thing that I don't think they get, the product is not

00:17:52   just the shows and the movies and the catalog.

00:17:55   The product is the interface.

00:17:59   You are a software company and if your software is bad and there's a barrier to getting

00:18:05   people to watch your content, that's an existential problem for your company, right?

00:18:12   And I think they don't take it seriously.

00:18:14   I think they think, "Yeah, it's good enough," or, "You know, the boffins are working on

00:18:18   that.

00:18:19   How about that?

00:18:20   I UKed it for you."

00:18:21   That's what they're saying at Sky.

00:18:22   The boffins are working on that.

00:18:25   The nerds are working on it, whatever.

00:18:27   It's fine.

00:18:28   "Can I get a show?

00:18:29   Can I play that show?"

00:18:30   Okay, then it's good.

00:18:32   And that's not like, honestly, nobody's going to choose Netflix or Disney+ or Paramount+

00:18:39   based on the software.

00:18:41   I think that's true.

00:18:43   However, their view of it and their frustration with it and the value over time and wanting

00:18:51   to keep them as a subscriber, I think the software is a big part of it.

00:18:56   And if you can't get to your stuff, if I buy Paramount+ because I want to see The Daily

00:19:03   Show and The Late Show and I'm a cord cutter.

00:19:09   And I have to go hunt for them every day because they're not in the right place.

00:19:15   Your service failed.

00:19:16   So I'm not saying it's the most important part, but I'm saying it's an integral part

00:19:20   of your product.

00:19:21   And it is fascinating that they get the marketing right, let's say, and they get the catalog

00:19:27   right.

00:19:28   Because I think the Paramount+ catalog is pretty good in terms of they got a bunch of

00:19:31   movies, they got a bunch of originals, they got a bunch of the content from their cable

00:19:36   networks that they're rolling in.

00:19:38   I think that they're doing fine with that.

00:19:40   We can debate the specifics of it, but I would say it clears the bar of that they are making

00:19:45   a legitimate attempt to launch this thing and have it be good.

00:19:48   And then their app is like an afterthought.

00:19:54   It's not the end of the world.

00:19:55   You can find stuff, you can go to the website, whatever.

00:19:57   But it's just a huge mistake for them to ignore it like they are.

00:20:05   And I'm sure there are people there who know it and know exactly...

00:20:08   I'm sure the people working on it know exactly all the reasons why it's broken.

00:20:12   The problem is that organizationally, they should have the support to not...

00:20:16   Over the last few months as this has all been going on, they should have had the support

00:20:20   to hire more people, to spend more money, to do whatever they needed to do to get that

00:20:25   thing ready so that on day one, it wasn't just, "Is the logo there?"

00:20:30   But we want it to be really good so that the people who come through the doors on day one

00:20:34   have a good experience with our service.

00:20:37   And they missed it.

00:20:38   They blew it.

00:20:39   Will Barron 1 It's like to bring Apple into this conversation.

00:20:43   We make fun of it, but Apple talk about customer satisfaction a lot.

00:20:48   And one of the reasons Apple's customer satisfaction scores as high as they are, it's because their

00:20:54   products by and large are very nice to use because the software is well made and it interacts

00:21:00   in a way that you expect and things don't break and it's not confusing and it's intuitive

00:21:06   to use.

00:21:08   And so whilst it isn't necessarily the reason somebody bought the product in the first place,

00:21:15   like when they were first coming to it, like maybe they were coming to it for a feature

00:21:19   or they were coming to it because of a deal or because they wanted the status of having

00:21:23   an iPhone or whatever, whatever the mindset is, they stick around and they're happy because

00:21:32   the experience is good.

00:21:34   And so if somebody is getting to the point where they're like, "Oh man, I have 10 streaming

00:21:38   services now and I need to get rid of one of them."

00:21:43   They may be more likely to get rid of one of the ones that just frustrates them more

00:21:47   often than not.

00:21:48   And then maybe they try and find the content elsewhere on the back of a truck or something.

00:21:53   Yeah.

00:21:54   It's not easy, right?

00:21:57   Like Netflix has its UI issues.

00:21:59   Hulu used to have a atrocious UI, although it's much better now.

00:22:02   Like it's not easy.

00:22:03   - Netflix is good though.

00:22:06   Like it's not perfect.

00:22:07   - Yeah, well, this is the...

00:22:08   But right, I mean, like everybody can commit crimes in these apps and like, and they do,

00:22:15   but there are, I would say there are sort of like some fundamental features in a streaming

00:22:21   app that are not like, they're not surprises, right?

00:22:24   They're not surprises.

00:22:25   Sure, there's, I can talk about like, do you support 4K HDR?

00:22:28   That's a streaming service thing.

00:22:30   HBO Max only started supporting it with Wonder Woman.

00:22:33   CBS All Access started supporting it.

00:22:34   There is some 4K stuff on there.

00:22:36   The Stand I think is 4K HDR.

00:22:39   So they're starting to do that.

00:22:42   But like you have movies people wanna watch, but they don't wanna watch them right now.

00:22:46   You gotta have a wishlist interface where you can like put it up in the queue and that shouldn't

00:22:50   be, well, the workaround is that you start playing it and you play the first minute and

00:22:54   then you pause it and then it shows up in your what you're watching.

00:22:56   No, I don't wanna do that.

00:22:57   I wanna say add to my wishlist and then come back to it later.

00:23:01   Having the ability to subscribe to a show or say, I always want the latest of this show.

00:23:05   Having properly displaying series and then seasons within them and episodes within them,

00:23:12   understanding how you wanna watch that show, whether it's a kind of show that you start

00:23:16   from the beginning or whether it's the kind of show where you always want the latest episode.

00:23:19   Like these are not surprises.

00:23:21   In fact, some of these things are things that we podcasters also have to grapple with, which

00:23:25   is like, what's the best way to get my content out there?

00:23:30   It's not as if the content on something like Paramount Plus is different from every other

00:23:34   streaming service.

00:23:36   Literally it's movies and TV shows with seasons.

00:23:39   And you could say, and also some of their stuff is timely content or you're gonna want

00:23:43   the most recent one because it's news or topical comedy or something like that.

00:23:48   This is not hard.

00:23:49   I know that the implementation details are hard, but it's not a mystery, right?

00:23:53   It's not a surprise that there are TV shows and movies.

00:23:57   And so we can quibble over some of the choices and some of the experiments Netflix does and

00:24:01   all of that.

00:24:02   But like anytime I see a streaming service that doesn't get these fundamentals right,

00:24:08   one, my reaction is, what are you doing?

00:24:11   Whoa, what are you doing?

00:24:13   But my second reaction is somebody in charge of that company doesn't think this is important.

00:24:19   They're wrong.

00:24:20   And I'm sure the things they think are important are things like I said, like a good ad campaign

00:24:26   and a nice new animation that comes up when we are originals animation, you know, it's

00:24:31   the Netflix thing or they there's a new one for Paramount Plus, like all the Star Trek

00:24:34   shows from CBS All Access now have a new Paramount Plus originals.

00:24:40   Like somebody workshopped that somebody art directed that and somebody was like, oh yeah,

00:24:43   we got to do that.

00:24:44   I want to prove that.

00:24:46   And then for the app, they're like, whatever I don't, I understand why it happens, but

00:24:52   it's just a colossal error.

00:24:53   And it's not, it's not a mystery.

00:24:57   It's it's obvious.

00:24:59   Everybody has to do it.

00:25:01   So it always just blows my mind when I see enormous companies with lots of money where

00:25:07   it's kind of the future of the business to do this.

00:25:11   And then they just half-ass this.

00:25:13   It's I don't know.

00:25:14   I don't know.

00:25:15   Anyway, good luck to Paramount Plus.

00:25:17   I just want to watch my Stephen Colbert in my 60 minutes now.

00:25:20   Thank you.

00:25:21   Goodbye.

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00:28:33   Jason, did you see the 12 South hover bar duo pop up last week?

00:28:40   I did.

00:28:41   I did.

00:28:42   I actually sent a note to my contact at 12 South saying, uh, can I get a re review unit

00:28:47   of that?

00:28:48   Cause I, and I actually dropped the, uh, the, the card that I do sometimes, which, which

00:28:52   is funny.

00:28:53   Cause it's basically like I've written a lot about iPad stands.

00:28:57   And we've spoken a lot about them on this show too.

00:29:00   I know.

00:29:01   And I've seen the results because, um, that, that one company that we talked about, they

00:29:07   sold a lot of iPad stands.

00:29:09   They emailed me and they're like, would you like to try any of our other products?

00:29:13   And my answer was basically like, I really was just interested in the iPad stand, but

00:29:18   they noticed.

00:29:19   So I, I think we're, yeah, we're thought leaders in the world of iPad stands now, clearly you

00:29:24   and I.

00:29:25   So it is a, uh, it's a new product from 12 South, 12 South.

00:29:29   We've made lots of great Apple related products over the years.

00:29:32   They also made a candle once, which Steven has, uh, which smells like a Mac.

00:29:37   So it is a weighted stand.

00:29:39   Well, it is an articulated arm.

00:29:41   Um, and it has both a weighted stand and a clamp.

00:29:45   So you actually get two options, right?

00:29:47   So you can either have it on a desk or you can have it clamped to the side of a desk

00:29:51   or maybe to a, they show a kitchen cabinet a lot.

00:29:54   You know, maybe you've got like a kitchen iPad and you want to hover over there.

00:29:57   Um, the stand itself has a little divot for the Apple pencil, which has a little magnet

00:30:02   in it, which is quite clever.

00:30:03   And the arm is really adjustable.

00:30:05   So I have one arrived today.

00:30:07   Ooh.

00:30:08   Um, it's really good.

00:30:11   It's really very good.

00:30:12   Uh, again, I only have a day's worth of experience, but I genuinely feel like with that days of

00:30:17   experience and if something terrible happens, I can very easily recommend this as the stand

00:30:22   to buy, um, it is the most adjustable and flexible of any of these products that I've

00:30:27   tried.

00:30:28   Uh, it's really easy to get the iPad in there.

00:30:30   It has the, like the clear look style and I guess the Viacom style actually of like,

00:30:34   you know, spring loaded, um, kind of gripper.

00:30:38   Right.

00:30:39   Um, so it can actually hold all sorts of devices and it's also future proofed because it's

00:30:44   really like it can get some good height too.

00:30:46   Cause that's been one of the challenges I know that you had especially is that, is that

00:30:50   sort of lower stands don't get high enough for you to like look at them straight on.

00:30:54   And this one looks like it's got a lot of adjustability in terms of the height.

00:30:58   Yeah.

00:30:59   It gets easily to eye height when on a desk for me, which is exactly what I'm looking

00:31:04   for.

00:31:05   Um, has quite a lot of wobble when you tap the screen.

00:31:08   Uh, but it's in a different place to other things.

00:31:11   So in other products I've noticed kind of the wobble being like the entire thing itself.

00:31:16   You know, like if you tap it enough, you could maybe knock it over.

00:31:19   What I've noticed here is if you tap the screen enough, basically the iPad gets a bit of a

00:31:24   wobble.

00:31:25   It's almost like, I mean, you will have experienced this, I'm sure with VESA arms, you know, if

00:31:29   you shake the desk enough, the computer that's attached to the arm is going to get a bit

00:31:33   of wobble in it.

00:31:34   And it's like that.

00:31:36   Would is this a deal breaker?

00:31:37   No, because every single one of these products has its own foible just based on what you're

00:31:42   doing with it.

00:31:43   Unless this thing was like completely solid and super heavy, right?

00:31:48   Like it's just, there's, it's, there's always going to be something.

00:31:51   But what I do feel about the 12 cell stand that I haven't felt with some other products

00:31:55   is I can actually freely tap the iPad and not be in my head about knocking it over.

00:32:01   So I found it really strange that they didn't talk about the weight of the weight on the

00:32:06   product page.

00:32:07   I was concerned about that when I saw it.

00:32:09   It's like that doesn't, it just says weighted.

00:32:11   It doesn't have a weight.

00:32:13   And so I was like, Ooh, is it maybe not that heavy?

00:32:15   Right.

00:32:16   I could end up being in a situation where this thing can't really hold itself, but that's

00:32:21   not the case.

00:32:23   It's definitely heavy enough to suspend it.

00:32:25   What I have noticed is they show some ways that you can hold this thing where you can

00:32:29   kind of like bring it down to the table, like a drafting table, which is quite clever.

00:32:35   But what I will say is on the way down to that, you do lose balance of your iPad.

00:32:41   So you kind of have to really, right?

00:32:43   Cause as you're bringing it down, you're disrupting the center of gravity.

00:32:48   And if you're not holding it well enough, which I wasn't the first time, the iPad will

00:32:51   take a dive, right?

00:32:52   Like it's trying to go like lurch forward.

00:32:54   So you have to be aware of it, you know, like these things that you have to remember gravity.

00:33:00   But I would say if you are a person who wants to stand for your iPad or has a stand and

00:33:04   you're maybe looking for something better, I think this might be the best one that I've

00:33:09   come across so far.

00:33:10   It's got a lot of flexibility.

00:33:11   It's clearly been thought through.

00:33:12   You know, like the one thing that I can attest to right now, and this is a thing which is

00:33:16   important over time is how does it hold up?

00:33:19   Right?

00:33:20   Like we've, I think we both had these situations where we're using a stand, it's great.

00:33:24   And then all of a sudden it just starts to droop, right?

00:33:27   Yep.

00:33:28   Um, this one, they do include hex tools so you can tighten the things on it, which is

00:33:33   great.

00:33:34   That's good.

00:33:35   So, you know, so kind of like how our boom arms are on our microphones, you know, like

00:33:38   they have all these parts and you could just tighten them up because they will loosen over

00:33:41   time if you move them enough.

00:33:43   So that's all great too.

00:33:46   I think this is a good product.

00:33:48   It's clearly well made, clearly well thought out.

00:33:50   You're like, I really like the, um, the, the, the stand that has the pencil magnet thing

00:33:59   in it.

00:34:00   I think that's really clever.

00:34:01   Um, as, as like, just like, Oh, this is a well thought out thing, right?

00:34:05   Because they put it in there, especially putting the magnet in.

00:34:07   It's like, ah, okay.

00:34:08   It's smart because you can't really do anything with your Apple pencil.

00:34:12   You can't clip the Apple pencil and the iPad into one of these things, right?

00:34:17   Like it doesn't work.

00:34:18   So if you are an Apple pencil user, you have to take it and put it somewhere.

00:34:22   Right.

00:34:23   And so I like very much that they thought that through and added a space for it.

00:34:30   So it's very nicely made product.

00:34:33   If you are looking for some looking for something like this in your life, uh, I think that this

00:34:38   could be, could be the one.

00:34:40   I mean, look, it's worth, I think really think it's worth knowing that these, all of these

00:34:44   products work best with an external mouse and keyboard, right?

00:34:49   That's where they work best.

00:34:51   Um, because just because of science and physics and gravity, right?

00:34:57   Like this really, if you're going to do this, you shouldn't be tap, tap, tap, tapping on

00:35:03   it a lot.

00:35:04   It's just not for that.

00:35:06   Um, but to be honest, if you're not using it with a mouse and a mouse and keyboard,

00:35:13   you probably don't need this product anyway.

00:35:15   Right?

00:35:16   Like, I don't really think that this is the type of thing that you would get if you were

00:35:21   using your finger on the iPad all the time, because it doesn't make sense to put your

00:35:24   iPad in this fixed stand, uh, if that's what you're doing.

00:35:29   So it's cool.

00:35:31   I like it.

00:35:32   I recommend it.

00:35:33   Um, so if people are on the fence about this one, uh, I would say go for it.

00:35:37   If you think that this is a product or product for you.

00:35:40   Um, I don't, what was the, what's the price of it?

00:35:43   Uh, 79.9.

00:35:44   More than you think.

00:35:45   The 12 South's pricing tends to be like Apple pricing.

00:35:48   It's always a little more than you think, but they do make really good stuff.

00:35:51   That's that's always been my take on the 12 South products is they, they sweat the details

00:35:56   and they use high quality materials.

00:35:57   And then somebody looks at it and says, why would I buy that?

00:36:00   And not this thing I could buy on Amazon for half off.

00:36:02   And the answer is generally, you know, you they're using high quality materials.

00:36:07   That's why it's heavier or it's, it's a more rugged or whatever it is.

00:36:11   They that's been their, their hallmark there.

00:36:14   They really do aspire to sort of like Apple levels of sweating the details.

00:36:18   Um, and more often than not the succeed at that.

00:36:22   I would say it feels like an $80 stand.

00:36:26   It feels like it feels like a product.

00:36:27   Like it's, it's, it's got some heft to it.

00:36:29   It seems to be well-made an adjustable, like a properly adjustable iPad stand is something that I've been looking for and have not found something like the ones that we, you and I have talked about before are, um, they're good, but it is sort of like.

00:36:44   Some of them are slightly adjustable.

00:36:46   Some of them are not really adjustable at all.

00:36:48   At best it's usually up down.

00:36:50   That's it.

00:36:50   And, and right.

00:36:52   And I've been thinking like, I want occasionally what I might want to do is push my iMac away and work on my desk, on an iPad with a keyboard and the mouse.

00:37:01   Um, and for that, I need something more adjustable than the little stands that we, that I would put like on my, on my bar top to write while standing.

00:37:10   Like I need something a little more adjustable than that.

00:37:12   Just like my iMac is adjustable.

00:37:14   So yeah, I'm looking forward to checking this out one way or another.

00:37:20   I had a thought a couple of days ago, which was always dangerous.

00:37:25   WWDC.

00:37:26   Cause usually around this time of year, the fretting begins.

00:37:33   Did you see that the Fairmont hotel closed?

00:37:36   Yes, I had this thought.

00:37:38   And then you, uh, sent me a text saying that the Fairmont has filed for bankruptcy, which is the Fairmont is where we would also, where we would stay over the last few years.

00:37:46   Yeah.

00:37:46   That was like the hotel that people stayed at and that people hung out in the lobby at WWDC and they closed and moved the guests that were in it to other hotels and said, we don't know what we're going to do.

00:37:57   We're hoping that we can find somebody, some hotel chain to buy it, which they will.

00:38:02   It's like a really nice hotel in a good location.

00:38:05   It's a nice big hotel right around the corner from the convention center.

00:38:08   The only thing is there are a few hotel chains around there.

00:38:12   There might not be that many.

00:38:14   It probably ended up becoming a bit of a boutique hotel or something I would expect.

00:38:17   But anyway, so when you sent me this, combined with the fact that I'd had that thought in my mind, I thought I'd just start digging on dates.

00:38:25   Cause usually around this time of year, if you're traveling, especially if you're traveling internationally, you're starting to freak out about hotel rooms and flights, right?

00:38:35   Because in March you are three months away and three months for an international trip can get a bit pricey, right?

00:38:44   Like if you're doing it with that kind of like a time window.

00:38:47   So I started looking it up and over the last few years, Apple has typically announced WWDC's dates in the second or third week of March.

00:38:59   So last year was on the 13th and it was very similar to year before and the year before that.

00:39:04   So all that is to say, maybe next week or the end of this week, if they follow typical dates, we'll find out when WWDC is going to be and maybe a little bit about it.

00:39:18   So obviously, uh, I'm not expecting an in-person event.

00:39:22   Um, we're obviously expecting a digital event, which is also why nobody is anxious because no one's thinking about flights, right?

00:39:31   Which is why the Fairmont is, uh, it's why the Fairmont is closing too.

00:39:35   Um, but it w you know, it was kind of something that hit me of like, oh yeah, I'm not thinking about the fact that it's March and WWDC because I don't need to think about it until June, right?

00:39:47   Like I don't need to really put a lot of thought or effort into WWDC until around that time.

00:39:51   But I would expect that we're probably going to get within the next week.

00:39:56   Um, just like, Hey, WWDC is coming, it's this day and maybe a little bit about what they want to do, you know, so like, Hey, it's going to be like last year and we're going to expand it a little bit or whatever.

00:40:06   This is what, this is what we learned.

00:40:08   I also thought that, you know, there's, there's rumors circling of a March event coming.

00:40:13   And, you know, you, they have the Apple tend to give about a week's notice that I probably want to spread all that out a little bit anyway, because if there is going to be an event in March, we're in either the.

00:40:25   Of the last two Tuesdays, which is most likely right.

00:40:27   If it's 23rd or the 30th, probably, um, that's those invites are going to have to go out over a week's notice.

00:40:34   So could end up with a bit of a, uh, back to back here, but yeah, it was just a thought that I had, which was funny considering maybe the last five or six years of my life that, uh, marches rolled around and I wasn't keeping my eye on hotel reservation prices.

00:40:53   Yeah, this is, uh, I think there's a conversation to be had about whether WWDC will ever return in physical form.

00:41:02   Yeah.

00:41:02   I don't know, but clearly this year it doesn't make any sense at all.

00:41:06   I actually currently would put my chips in on no, because I don't think they would do it in person in 2022.

00:41:17   Cause I still don't think that's enough time.

00:41:20   Uh, I think from a legal perspective to feel completely comfortable about having an event that you are asking people to travel to.

00:41:28   Um, and there is still possibility that it was going to be difficult for some international travel in some way or another, even then.

00:41:35   Um, because, you know, I think a lot of places, like even the places that are doing well in vaccinations aren't expecting to have their entire populations vaccinated or have the ability to, uh, vaccinate their entire populations until.

00:41:51   Like late summer at the earliest.

00:41:54   Right.

00:41:54   So maybe we're looking at to like September, October before an entire population could be vaccinated again, but that is provided that the populations will vaccinate themselves.

00:42:04   Right.

00:42:04   Yeah.

00:42:05   And so you could still end up in a situation where people that are smart and get the vaccines will be okay, but there may still be lots of people that won't be.

00:42:16   Right.

00:42:17   And so what, what does that do?

00:42:19   Do you, do you want to be having in-person events?

00:42:22   So I still think that 2022 won't happen and I think three years doing it this way.

00:42:27   I don't know if it'd be, that's just my, I just don't know if they would do it at that point.

00:42:32   I really don't.

00:42:33   Yeah.

00:42:34   So for this year, you know, I, I imagine it's going to be a replay of last year with maybe some lessons learned, but that basically they're going to do some, you know, big live stream videos and then they're going to have a whole bunch of, uh, roll out.

00:42:50   Of sessions that it'll look a lot like last year.

00:42:53   Yeah.

00:42:55   I would hope that they do more right.

00:42:59   Because they've had an entire year to plan, right?

00:43:05   Like WWDC 2020, they plan that thing in like three months, right?

00:43:10   Yeah.

00:43:10   Um, yeah.

00:43:12   Well, I think that you could, there's gotta be lessons learned about like what worked and what didn't work.

00:43:16   I've definitely heard the feedback that the, um, that the interactive stuff where you could sign up for a session where they would actually like do a zoom call or a, you know, whatever they use a Cisco WebEx, uh, call where they have like office hours for people.

00:43:30   Um, and what I heard is that people didn't use those times that, that everybody's like, oh man, with all the developers all over the world, they're going to get flooded and you're not going to be able to talk to anybody.

00:43:40   And my understanding is that they, those sessions didn't fill up, I think because everybody assumed that they would.

00:43:47   Um, and I wonder if they thought about, about some of that stuff, like, well, how can we do that better?

00:43:52   And are there better ways for us to present?

00:43:54   Because they've certainly this, this session, you know, this year has been planned from the start as being, uh, entirely virtual and also planned.

00:44:04   With the knowledge of what worked and what didn't work last year.

00:44:08   That said, I think what they did last year worked so well that I'm not entirely sure how much different it'll really feel maybe in some of the details, but you know, my guess is that it will be pretty.

00:44:19   Um, you know, pretty similar, at least from the outside appearance because they, they kinda did it fine last year.

00:44:28   I loved it.

00:44:30   I love covering it.

00:44:30   I have, I've been covering WWDC since the nineties.

00:44:34   Seriously.

00:44:36   The nineties.

00:44:38   Oh, and last year was the best I've ever done at covering WWDC.

00:44:45   And the reason is that I got to sit at my desk and go through the sessions.

00:44:49   And again, I, you miss out on the, all of the social aspects and things like that, but also you miss out on the crowds and waiting in line to go into a session and having them say it's a capacity and all those things.

00:45:02   And instead you, I was able to just sit down in my living room and watch sessions and take notes and write articles.

00:45:09   And it was great.

00:45:10   And I imagine that for other people who cover it and for other people who also attend, uh, it was great in that way.

00:45:16   So you lose the, you lose the social part and I don't know what's going to happen there.

00:45:19   Cause I do feel like a community like ours.

00:45:21   I love that, that even though it wasn't Mac world expo anymore, right?

00:45:25   Like that went away.

00:45:26   But the WWDC had become like the place where the apple community met.

00:45:34   And I think there's value in that and I hope that doesn't go away, but that value was mostly to us and not apple, which is why I think that you're not necessarily wrong in saying it's unlikely that they'll ever do this again.

00:45:48   You know, I don't know.

00:45:49   I wouldn't put it past them, but.

00:45:52   Um, but as an event of like understanding what apple is doing and getting the info straight from the people who work on this stuff at apple last year was the best because in previous years you would miss sessions and maybe you'd go back a few weeks later and they put the videos up and you could watch it then.

00:46:10   But like, and they've gotten better over the years, but like last year I was able to get to see every session I wanted to see for the first time.

00:46:16   It was amazing.

00:46:20   I know that I need to plan better and will plan better because last year I planned horrifically and paid for it.

00:46:25   So I know what I need to do to have a better week this year.

00:46:34   Um, like moving my other shows.

00:46:37   Right.

00:46:38   It was, I didn't do any, I did my entire stock of shows for the week and that was a terrible idea, especially because we ended up in a situation where we were able to interview some people from apple.

00:46:49   So I also want to prepare for hopeful situations like that as well.

00:46:53   So I need to leave space in my schedule, which I did not do, and it was bad.

00:46:59   So I'm definitely going to plan it out better this week.

00:47:02   Um, it being at home did not mean that I had all the time still is what, what I ended up learning.

00:47:08   That was a mistake that I made.

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00:49:14   So we are potentially looking at saying goodbye to one thing, but we are definitely saying goodbye to another.

00:49:21   And that is the iMac Pro.

00:49:23   The product page for the iMac Pro was updated a couple of days ago to say while supplies last and Apple has since confirmed to Mac rumors that the iMac Pro is no longer being produced, recommending people look into getting one of the 27 inch iMacs as a replacement product or that would be the product they would recommend.

00:49:41   If people wanted to buy it.

00:49:42   As long as you don't care about the fan.

00:49:44   Yeah, yeah.

00:49:45   When I say replacement, I don't mean like get this instead of your iMac Pro, but like if you were looking at that product, that might be the one to get.

00:49:51   And honestly, in all honesty, this is something that we've said for a while too, right?

00:49:56   Like it's a, you would have to look at, but if you were buying a high end iMac over the last year, you need to look at both of these products because the 27 inch iMac is better in some ways than the iMac Pro.

00:50:10   And you know, the span of iMac Pro performance is covered by high end iMacs and the Mac Pro, right?

00:50:16   It is, it is.

00:50:17   So you don't need an iMac Pro with a three year old processor in it.

00:50:23   You've got your Mac Pro and you've got your high end iMacs, both of which will provide that level.

00:50:29   If you're buying a Mac at all right now in this category, which you probably shouldn't because of Apple Silicon coming down the pipe.

00:50:37   But, um, but yeah, it's true, like the lack of updates to the iMac Pro.

00:50:42   Like they got rid of the eight core iMac Pro because they already had sort of put it to shame and then they had another generation of new iMacs came out that were even faster and went at it even more cores at the high end.

00:50:54   So yeah, those high end iMacs are incredibly powerful.

00:50:57   The last probably Intel iMacs are incredibly powerful.

00:51:01   So, um, makes sense.

00:51:04   Right?

00:51:05   Like they didn't, they didn't need this product.

00:51:09   I mean, this product didn't need to exist anyway.

00:51:10   They already made it and I love it.

00:51:12   Don't get me wrong.

00:51:13   I love it.

00:51:13   I have one.

00:51:14   My computer is an iMac Pro.

00:51:17   I love it, but, um, it, it is, it was meant to be the replacement for the Mac Pro because the Mac Pro was never coming back and then they changed their mind and they changed direction.

00:51:29   And then it became this very weird tweener of a product where like it's got the Xeons in it and you know, but it, and it's got the great cooling in it, which is great.

00:51:39   But like now we've got a Mac Pro for that and the iMacs are pretty fast.

00:51:43   So why do we have this thing in the, in the middle?

00:51:45   And it's, while it's a great product, it is a product that like fell through a hole from another timeline, essentially a timeline where Apple gave up on the Mac Pro and that the best they were going to do for people who really needed high end workflows.

00:51:59   Was a fancy iMac.

00:52:01   As we said before, you wrote in your article too, I don't remember the last time we spoke about the iMac Pro, but it is the parallel timeline computer.

00:52:11   It, what it really is.

00:52:13   It only was supposed to exist when the Mac Pro didn't exist.

00:52:16   They did the Mac Pro round table.

00:52:18   Um, where they said the Mac Pro was going to come back and there had already been rumors that they were going to do an iMac as a high end thing.

00:52:25   And then they came out and they said, okay, we're going to change it and do the Mac Pro.

00:52:28   And then like two months later, the iMac Pro got announced.

00:52:31   Well, they, they mentioned it at that round table.

00:52:34   They said they had this product and then two months later they showed it off.

00:52:37   They said, we are working on an iMac for pro users.

00:52:40   And they shipped it in December.

00:52:42   So yeah, so this is, this is the case where like this product was ready to go or almost ready to go.

00:52:46   And they changed direction, but they also knew that the Mac Pro wasn't going to ship for ages.

00:52:52   So they, they went ahead and released the iMac Pro and it was a good choice for a lot of people.

00:52:58   But, um, they weren't going down that path anymore.

00:53:02   And so over the years it became kind of readily apparent that they weren't going to update it.

00:53:06   Um, and they also readily apparent that they kept not updating the iMac.

00:53:12   And what are they waiting for?

00:53:14   What are they waiting for?

00:53:15   I think they're waiting for Apple Silicon, although I don't want to say for sure, because what if, Oh, what if there's an Apple Silicon iMac that comes out and it looks just like the old iMacs again?

00:53:25   And you're like, Oh boy,

00:53:27   don't say that, Jason, you can't put that kind of thing out in the world.

00:53:30   Oh, so, so it, but the iMacs advanced to the point while this thing didn't get updated, that it was irrelevant.

00:53:39   And like we said, um, last year at some point, I remember us having a conversation where, where basically we said they can call a high end iMac and iMac Pro if they want, and they could make it in space gray if they want to.

00:53:52   But especially with Apple Silicon involved, the, the defining factor of the iMac Pro kind of goes out the window, right?

00:54:00   Because it was that it was using the Xeon processors that were otherwise in the only in the Mac Pro and it had the super cooling system and, you know, Apple Silicon changes the game in terms of what the chips are.

00:54:10   And, uh, presumably it changes how Apple approaches cooling to a certain extent because they run cool.

00:54:18   And also, I can't imagine that Apple is going to build an iMac for the 2020s that has a big bulgy space in it for a spinning hard drive.

00:54:28   And that was part of the, that's where they were able to build the cooling system and the iMac Pro is they threw out the spinning hard drive.

00:54:34   So like redesign the iMac and use Apple Silicon at that point, like you can call something an iMac Pro if you really want to, but.

00:54:42   Or just call it a high end iMac.

00:54:45   It doesn't really matter what you call it.

00:54:47   It's not the, the, the reason for the iMac Pro existing has vanished, right?

00:54:52   Like they're not making more Intel processors.

00:54:54   They're making a Mac Pro.

00:54:56   They're not going to need probably the kind of cooling that it has, and they're going to change the design anyway.

00:55:02   So like, why would it, if it sticks around, it's only because somebody gets a kick out of having a pro variant of the iMac and not because of any, you know, any other real connection to the existing iMac Pro.

00:55:13   So it's a one shot one shot deal.

00:55:15   It's, it's the rare one shot Apple product.

00:55:18   It appeared and then it disappeared again.

00:55:20   And unless they reuse the name.

00:55:22   I guess what I think this feels kind of unprecedented is a one, like a one shot product that was actually good.

00:55:31   I feel like, especially from listening to 20 max, they were, they were, it was a one shot.

00:55:37   Bad.

00:55:38   It was a bad computer.

00:55:39   This is like, this was a, they released it.

00:55:41   I never updated it and then killed it and there will not be another one like this, but it was an excellent machine.

00:55:51   It was really good.

00:55:52   So like it's, that's kind of the funny thing.

00:55:54   And I'm genuinely, I'm, I'm surprised.

00:55:57   Well, I mean, we don't know, right?

00:55:59   Like we don't, as we said before, one of the new Macs could be considered a professional Mac iMac, right?

00:56:05   Like it could be.

00:56:07   But I think, I think it's really the iMac pro will be looked upon as a relic of its time that this type of machine in this type of configuration, Apple just doesn't need it anymore.

00:56:19   And I think what that would suggest is you would hope the next iMacs are going to smoke it.

00:56:26   Right.

00:56:27   Well, right.

00:56:28   I mean, it, Apple Silicon changes everything.

00:56:32   Apple Silicon changes everything.

00:56:34   It changes the equation of this.

00:56:36   And even if, even if they weren't redesigning the iMac, which come on, they need to do that.

00:56:41   Uh, you wouldn't need the cooling on this thing.

00:56:47   And the thing that differentiated it was the class of processor, which again, it's not Intel anymore.

00:56:53   So that's all gone.

00:56:54   And like, it's all, it's all gone and they have to redefine.

00:56:58   And this is what I think I'm hoping we'll see this year is what does the iMac look like for the next decade?

00:57:05   What, what is the new iMac running Apple's own processors?

00:57:09   What is that product like?

00:57:11   And I hope we start to get an idea of that because, you know, we, uh, did that interview.

00:57:17   On upgrade about the iMac a couple of years ago with a product manager.

00:57:22   And she was talking about how, you know, it's a huge business for Apple.

00:57:26   Uh, no, it was, uh, Colleen novielli Colleen.

00:57:31   Yeah.

00:57:33   Uh, and, and Colleen had some details about just how big a business it is for Apple.

00:57:40   Like it's a, it's a huge business, even just, you know, subset of a subset.

00:57:45   But like the Mac business is big and the iMac business is big, even though laptops are primarily what Apple sells.

00:57:51   Apple sells a lot of iMacs.

00:57:53   It does matter.

00:57:54   It is a very important product and they need to take it in some new directions.

00:58:00   Cause it's essentially the same as from basically 2007.

00:58:04   It's essentially the same since they, uh, it's not that different from the first G five iMac, but then when they went metal.

00:58:13   Instead of plastic in 2007, it's changed a little on the back and the shape of it and all that.

00:58:19   But even that's been for almost a decade now.

00:58:22   So it's been a long time.

00:58:24   What, what is next?

00:58:26   And, and so I feel like they're just walking away from the iMac.

00:58:29   Like they're going to keep some other iMacs Intel iMacs around, but the iMac pros already three years out of date.

00:58:34   Like there's no reason to keep it around, but the other iMacs are also going to start to fade away because there will be the new thing.

00:58:41   And I'm excited to see what that new thing is and what a, what a, a new take on the iMac is.

00:58:48   And you know, my hope is that it will be.

00:58:51   Um, quite a lot different, but we don't know.

00:58:55   We just don't know.

00:58:58   Well, do you think there is anything to glean about the timing of doing this?

00:59:05   Like why have they done this now?

00:59:07   I, my guess is that sales are slow because really you should be buying another thing.

00:59:15   It's possible that they couldn't get a part or something like that.

00:59:18   It's possible that they just want to use wherever these are being made at a low volume for making something else.

00:59:25   Small Mac Pro.

00:59:27   Like they can't, they don't have unlimited space.

00:59:29   And how many of these can they be selling at this point?

00:59:31   Like I know we said that about the trashcan Mac Pro too, but really how many of these can they be selling?

00:59:35   It's a three year old computer on a, a chip platform that Apple is abandoning.

00:59:40   And if you really want to Z on at this point on a Mac anyway, you should probably just buy a Mac Pro.

00:59:47   And if you want a fast iMac, you should just buy an Intel iMac and not an iMac Pro.

00:59:51   So what I, it's gotta be sales volume and wanting to do something else.

00:59:56   And like why it's gotta go away eventually.

00:59:59   And it's not like you're going to replace it with something.

01:00:02   I know Apple likes to do that thing where it's like, well, now we announced this new thing, the old ones fade away, right?

01:00:08   This like this one isn't getting replaced like that.

01:00:11   So you just have to put a stake in the ground and say, no, and they didn't announce it, right.

01:00:16   They just put it up on their website while supplies last.

01:00:18   And then somebody asked, this means that it's gone.

01:00:21   Right.

01:00:21   And they're like, yeah, that's what I mean.

01:00:24   Just it's not, there was no press release that they're putting the iMac Pro on ice, like for the G4 Cube, but, uh, it's yeah.

01:00:33   To everything there is a season and this was, this was it's time.

01:00:38   Does this make it more notable?

01:00:40   Like if you were looking at again, I know it would make the shock a lot, but 30 max for 2030, would the iMac Pro become even more likely to be on that list because it.

01:00:51   I mean, we already knew, you know, I think we already spoke about the fact that like it's birth was enough, right?

01:00:56   Like it, why it existed, how good it was, the weird things that it did, like the strange calling system that it has and the innovation make it notable enough.

01:01:07   But the fact that it goes away and potentially is the one and only iMac Pro.

01:01:12   I guess that whole package makes it even more notable, right?

01:01:16   Well, it's a, there is definitely a 20 max for 2020, you know, entry kind of thing for.

01:01:22   Apple's weird two step with the trash can Mac Pro, the iMac Pro, and then the new Mac Pro.

01:01:30   There's a story there.

01:01:32   And so the question would be, if I was constructing a list in five or 10 years, which Mac would I hang the story off of?

01:01:42   Would I hang it off of the iMac Pro or would I hang it off the trash can Mac Pro?

01:01:46   Given my affection for the iMac Pro, I might choose the iMac Pro to tell that story because it's a good computer that also represents the road not taken.

01:01:56   And I think that that is a juicier story than, Hey, trash can Mac Pro.

01:02:01   He let's talk about all the reasons that it was a mistake, right?

01:02:06   Like it's almost better to tell that story in the context of the iMac Pro than the other way around, because in the end, I kind of want to tell the story.

01:02:14   It's not always possible.

01:02:15   Sometimes you tell the story of a Mac that's sort of like that.

01:02:19   This was a failure.

01:02:20   Um, but I do like, I do sort of view it as an honor to even be mentioned in the list, even if you're honored for being a flop.

01:02:29   And so if I could choose which one to honor between the iMac Pro and the trash can Mac Pro, I would absolutely choose the iMac Pro to tell that.

01:02:36   But I do think that with a little bit of hindsight, um, that's the, that's one of the key stories of the 2010s for, for Apple is, is what happened with the Mac Pro and the iMac Pro.

01:02:50   I wonder if we'll, either of us will be using ours in a year.

01:02:54   Oh, you know, the biggest problem I have with, with an iMac is, is it's so huge that, you know, even, even with all the power, I could use it as a server yet, but I got to put it to the table.

01:03:06   I could use it as a 27 inch screen somewhere.

01:03:09   Well, I'm just more, what I'm saying is, uh, and I think you've already answered it in the way you answered that question.

01:03:15   If we'll replace it with something else.

01:03:17   Oh, I can't envision that I'll still be using it in a year.

01:03:20   No, I think there's no way.

01:03:22   I think there's no way.

01:03:23   No, my challenge is just going to be that I'm going to need to sell it to someone who's going to get a really nice fast iMac that runs on Intel.

01:03:30   And that'll be fine, but that's, that's going to be, I've already jumped to that point, right?

01:03:36   Which is I'm going to need to sell it because I'm not going to keep it around and use it as a server or something.

01:03:41   I'm either going to sell it or I'm going to say, see if, um, if Lauren's still working at home, some of the times, like you want an iMac on that desk instead of your laptop.

01:03:51   Cause we, I can put it there, but, but yeah, I can't see like already it's, it's slower than most of the things I do on the MacBook Air.

01:04:00   So I think the issues are I'm going to need a screen and I'm going to need a, a fast Mac.

01:04:06   And what does that mean?

01:04:07   Like, is there an Apple display and an external, you know, and another device I can use, or is there a new iMac that I like and is there a small iMac, but it's very strong.

01:04:18   The rumors are that there's going to be a bigger iMac coming.

01:04:20   And so do I want to wait for that and like, but yeah, I can't envision that this iMac is going to make it to 2022.

01:04:28   All right.

01:04:28   In my, on my desk, I don't just don't see.

01:04:31   If I had a big display, a big external display, I might already be moved to the MacBook Air.

01:04:39   Friend of the show, Ming-Chi Kuo has been doing a lot of reporting recently, string of reports over the past couple of weeks.

01:04:46   This time, a little bit more information about Apple's AR mixed reality VR stuff.

01:04:53   Um, some in the near and some in the very distant future.

01:04:58   I wanted to talk about it because there's some stuff in here that's just bananas wild.

01:05:04   Um, but there's a couple of things which are more clarifying over some of the reports that we've had in recent weeks, like that one from the information.

01:05:13   So Kuo talks about Apple having three phases for their strategy.

01:05:18   Helmet by 2022, glasses by 2025, contact lens by 2030 to 2040.

01:05:27   I love that range.

01:05:28   It's, it's, uh, 10 years from now or 20 years from now.

01:05:32   Okay.

01:05:33   That's the, that's the question cloud with a question mark.

01:05:36   And then like magic happens.

01:05:38   The helmet product will be the only one of these products in the strategy to provide a VR experience as well as AR and helmet.

01:05:49   Calling it helmet is so weird.

01:05:51   It's, it's going to look like a quest too.

01:05:52   It's going to be a headset.

01:05:53   It's going to be a big headset, not glasses.

01:05:55   I'd call it a headset.

01:05:56   Headset makes more sense.

01:05:58   I'm not really, I'm not really sure.

01:06:00   It's like, to be honest, helmet could have been a translation thing, honestly.

01:06:04   Um, I don't believe these reports are written in English.

01:06:07   Um, so, you know, no, it makes sense with this one being the outlier, because if it's something that's covering your eyes and it's not see-through, which it won't be, uh, they may as well provide a VR experience here as well.

01:06:19   And who knows for Apple, this might not be a thing which gets superseded by glasses or like, you know, this might be something that if it works for them, they also continue making products in these realms as well.

01:06:32   I think we're all thinking about like, oh, this is the first step to AR glasses, which is obviously where they want to go, but they may also want to continue making a mixed reality headset for home use.

01:06:42   If it turns out to be something that is popular, um, prototypes of this product currently weigh around two to 300 grams, but Apple is targeting a final weight of one to 200 grams.

01:06:53   To give some context, the Oculus Quest is 500 grams.

01:06:56   The AirPods max are 380 grams.

01:06:59   Uh, say a 150 gram headset seems incredibly ambitious.

01:07:05   I find that very peculiar.

01:07:06   Color me skeptical.

01:07:08   Yeah, because I mean, I would genuinely expect it to have been in the range that the Quest is.

01:07:14   So if their prototypes, current prototypes are in the two to 300 gram, like if they ship a product to that weight, awesome, because that will be much more comfortable.

01:07:23   That'd be way more comfortable.

01:07:24   Sure.

01:07:25   If they can do that, that's a, that's a winner.

01:07:27   So you remember the real shocking thing in the information's report is that this product could cost $3,000.

01:07:33   Minchi Kuo is saying it'd be aimed at a thousand.

01:07:36   Now, if that's the case, I mean, we're talking about something different now, right?

01:07:40   Because 3000 was like, okay, nobody-

01:07:44   That's a developer kit.

01:07:45   That's a HoloLens kind of enterprise only sort of thing.

01:07:49   But a thousand dollars sounds like a consumer product, right?

01:07:52   Exactly.

01:07:53   Sort of, at least.

01:07:53   I mean, look, a thousand dollars is expensive.

01:07:55   It's expensive for sure, but our phones cost that, right?

01:07:59   So like you are at least in prosumer, you know, the very least where $3,000 is like, well, the only people that should buy this are people that have a very specific actual need for it.

01:08:10   Like they're making these types of applications for future uses.

01:08:13   Kuo talks about this being a portable product, not a mobile product or a mobile product.

01:08:20   I expect what he's saying here is that, look, the processing power, everything's going to be done on device.

01:08:26   We've heard that said by everybody, right?

01:08:28   They're doing all of the processing on device, but it's not meant for outside use.

01:08:32   I also expect it probably doesn't have a great battery life.

01:08:35   Like maybe you get a couple of hours on it, especially if it's that light.

01:08:39   I don't think it has a big battery in it, right?

01:08:41   And so maybe it will be something that most of the time you'd maybe want to have plugged in during use.

01:08:48   But you could get a couple of hours on it maybe?

01:08:52   I don't know.

01:08:52   >> I don't know.

01:08:53   I don't know.

01:08:54   I keep putting it in the context of the Quest where, you know, you can play for an hour, hour and a half.

01:08:58   >> Yep.

01:08:59   >> And then you got to charge it.

01:09:00   And that's what it is.

01:09:01   And you're not going to wear it outside.

01:09:02   >> Exactly.

01:09:03   And that kind of fits into the idea of portable and not mobile, right?

01:09:07   It's like you can move around while wearing it, but you wouldn't leave the house with it.

01:09:12   I mean, let alone the fact that you won't be able to see out of it, but I know that they

01:09:18   would do the camera thing, but it's not going to be as good as glasses.

01:09:21   Friend of the show, Steve Tramp Smith was talking about if this product is to be a 2022 product,

01:09:29   timelines.

01:09:31   You know, would there be a WWDC announcement for this where they give people time to develop for it?

01:09:38   Or would they do an iPhone or Apple Watch style announcement?

01:09:41   I think we both probably fall down at the second camp, right?

01:09:45   They would do a specific event for this product and say it's coming out in however many months,

01:09:51   right?

01:09:51   Because there's nothing that they're replacing.

01:09:54   >> I'm going to go the other way.

01:09:57   If I had to pick one, I would say that I think there's such a developer story here that they

01:10:01   would make a WWDC announcement that they're doing this.

01:10:05   Give some details, ask developers to write apps for it, and then say that they'll give

01:10:09   more details and ship it by the end of the year or early next year or something like that.

01:10:15   But I feel like this product, because it's essentially a new product class and they're

01:10:18   going to need developer support and it doesn't replace anything, so there's no Osborne effect

01:10:24   here, I think that you just announced that you're doing it.

01:10:26   Everybody knows they're doing it already.

01:10:28   You tell your developer story and then you still do an event to give the details of it.

01:10:35   And you do that when you're ready to ship it.

01:10:40   So I think that's more likely.

01:10:42   If they're really going to ship this between now and the middle of next year, then this

01:10:49   year's WWDC actually makes the most sense to talk about it.

01:10:52   >> This year?

01:10:53   >> Yeah.

01:10:54   >> All right.

01:10:56   >> If it's coming out second half '21 or first half '22, by the time next WWDC comes, it'll

01:11:02   already be out, right?

01:11:03   >> Sure.

01:11:05   I mean, yes, if that's the timeline, then yes.

01:11:09   It's bold.

01:11:10   >> Well, I mean, the alternative is that they could do an event in the fall, but I still

01:11:15   think it's going to be do an event or have it be in an event and then ship it a while

01:11:20   later.

01:11:20   >> Yeah.

01:11:21   No, I agree with that.

01:11:23   I mean, I think this is probably a, I reckon, second half of 2022 product.

01:11:28   And at some point in 2022, I would expect, the way that I look at it is they have an

01:11:34   event for this and they show it off.

01:11:36   >> If it's second half of 2022, then they show it at WWDC 2022.

01:11:40   Because again, I think there's going to be a developer story here, and I think they're

01:11:44   going to want to get developers on board.

01:11:45   But if they want to ship it in April of '22, then yes, it's possible that they won't be

01:11:54   willing to talk about it until fall of '21.

01:11:57   And they'll do an Apple Watch-style thing where they pre-announce it.

01:12:01   Yeah, sure.

01:12:02   And say, this is going to be big.

01:12:04   And we'll check back with you in six months.

01:12:07   So it depends on timing, I guess, is really the issue there.

01:12:10   It depends on timing because if they're ready to talk about it at WWDC, I think they will

01:12:15   want to.

01:12:15   But that's if they're shipping it second half of this year.

01:12:19   If they're shipping it next year, they'll probably talk about it this fall and then

01:12:22   ship it next year.

01:12:23   But I do think this is a product that's going to have months after it's announced before

01:12:29   it ships because of the complexity and the fact that they, first off, they can do it

01:12:34   because they're not replacing anything.

01:12:36   And because they're going to really want to start talking about the developer side of

01:12:40   the story.

01:12:40   Even if this is a by the end of 2021, which is what QoW is referencing, right?

01:12:48   With no real feeling to it, personally.

01:12:53   I think I would just be really surprised to see this at WWDC this year.

01:13:00   But I know we were just talking about it, but over the next three months, who knows

01:13:06   what leaks are going to, you know, like, and then I might change my mind on this completely,

01:13:10   right?

01:13:10   If we start seeing like, hey, look at this stuff we found in an early build that fell

01:13:16   off the back of a truck by a bar, you know, like, but it just, I would just be surprised

01:13:23   for them to show it off because to show it off, they're probably going to show hard work.

01:13:27   It would just surprise me.

01:13:28   It would surprise me.

01:13:29   I'm not saying that I don't go along with what you're saying, but for some reason, in

01:13:36   my mind, I just not even considered that it would be shown off in June.

01:13:40   We even spoke about in June, but I guess it could.

01:13:45   I don't know.

01:13:46   There's a lot going on here.

01:13:48   Yeah.

01:13:49   But the glasses product is where like the real mobility comes in.

01:13:55   That's like the see-through experience, right?

01:13:57   This is what we're all waiting for.

01:13:58   This is a couple of years away at least.

01:14:00   And then of course the contact lens.

01:14:03   I mean, I don't know.

01:14:06   Like I could say this and then by 2050, you're going to plant a chip in your brain.

01:14:11   I really don't feel like for me, this contact lens thing, this just feels like quo.

01:14:18   Um, being an analyst, right?

01:14:22   Just say either that, or there's some, you know, there there's a slide that Apple has

01:14:25   an internal thing that says, uh, you know, ergonomic progression, uh, headset glasses,

01:14:31   you know, contacts or wearable or something like that.

01:14:36   Right.

01:14:36   Where they're like, well, this is going to evolve over time.

01:14:38   And in the next decade, we'll probably have contact lenses, but it doesn't, I mean, it

01:14:43   doesn't mean anything.

01:14:43   It's completely meaningless.

01:14:45   Even if they are investigating it now, like anything, which they should, they should be

01:14:51   like, are there better ways to do this?

01:14:52   Can we, can we have contact lenses that do this and all that?

01:14:56   But, you know, they're talking about, it's going to be nine to 19 years from now.

01:15:01   That's not a, it's just not, just don't worry about it.

01:15:06   One last thing on, on the helmet product.

01:15:09   Uh, the, we've, there's been a lot of talk when we've been talking about this, about

01:15:13   a developer kit and like a $3,000 price tag and who is this for, et cetera, et cetera.

01:15:18   I think at a thousand dollars, they would get a lot of developers because there are

01:15:26   a lot of games available for the Oculus quest.

01:15:29   I can't imagine Facebook sell an astronomical amount of those things.

01:15:36   No, I think you're, I think you're right.

01:15:38   The idea that they could make a story involving, um, uh, you know, 3d APIs for,

01:15:46   and they've already got some of this stuff, but like to make 3d games and 3d VR games,

01:15:52   the, out of your, um, out of your iOS games and having Apple arcade.

01:15:56   They want everything that's on the Apple arcade, uh, service to support this and like putting

01:16:05   a lot of money into getting content for these, uh, for this thing.

01:16:11   Like I could see it.

01:16:12   I can see it.

01:16:13   Like, and if you were a somewhat independent developer who made Oculus quest games, provided

01:16:21   you want to bring those to Apple's platform.

01:16:23   Yes, please.

01:16:24   Right.

01:16:24   Like provided that you can, it's like, you know, you've potentially doubled your market

01:16:28   share, right?

01:16:29   Like the, like the market share, but your market reach, you know, it's not a, it's not

01:16:34   a huge category, but if you are writing software in that category, it's a, it's a, it would

01:16:40   be a lot of new people, right?

01:16:42   It would presumably be an influx of some new users, even if it's not a huge success at

01:16:46   first, because Apple really is viewing it as a stepping stone to where they want to

01:16:50   go.

01:16:50   Um, and then as a developer, yeah, you would also be interested in it for being able to,

01:16:57   uh, explore where you're going to go.

01:16:59   If you believe that there's a good chance that the glasses project product is going

01:17:03   to be a huge hit for Apple, which it might be, you never know.

01:17:06   Yeah.

01:17:08   And again, like, I think again, like, so the glasses product would be different types of

01:17:13   experiences.

01:17:14   Like the types of games wouldn't be the same, right?

01:17:16   Cause you're seeing through.

01:17:17   So, you know, it, it, there's a lot of interesting avenues even for a product like this.

01:17:26   And if they are able to hit that lower price tag, I mean, I'm much more interested.

01:17:31   Yeah.

01:17:32   It becomes more sense as a product.

01:17:34   If it's a product that people plausibly might buy, even though it's expensive because it's

01:17:37   from Apple and it'll do interesting things.

01:17:39   And the price is such a barrier that nobody's going to buy it.

01:17:43   That's a, that's a difference.

01:17:46   And yeah, a third of the price, a thousand instead of 3000, I mean, the Oculus quest

01:17:51   is a lot cheaper than that.

01:17:52   Let's be clear, but an Apple VR product, VR slash AR product at a thousand dollars is

01:17:59   going to get.

01:17:59   At least some uptake.

01:18:02   And also be a sign of where Apple's going in the future, which people take very seriously.

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01:20:18   Should do some hashtag ask upgrade questions, Jason Snow.

01:20:21   Sure.

01:20:21   You don't usually ask, though.

01:20:22   Let's ask the lasers.

01:20:24   What are the lasers think?

01:20:25   Lasers, is it time for some hashtag ask upgrade questions?

01:20:28   I wondered if you were going to emphasize the lasers.

01:20:34   You did.

01:20:34   I guess the cartoon lasers now.

01:20:36   I don't know.

01:20:36   There we go.

01:20:37   The lasers have feelings.

01:20:38   We've entered into a horrible, horrible like, no, I don't like this.

01:20:44   I don't like the potential ramifications of the lasers having feelings.

01:20:48   But this is where we've entered.

01:20:49   Ramon asks, sometimes you make reference to Apple people listening to your shows.

01:20:55   Is it exciting to you that people from the company that you both enjoy so much listen to your work?

01:21:01   Yeah, I want to say so.

01:21:08   Like there's aspects to this, right?

01:21:10   There's first, I don't write or record podcasts for people at Apple.

01:21:16   No.

01:21:16   Right?

01:21:16   Like that's not the point, nor do I expect that.

01:21:20   I mean, if we did, the content would be really different.

01:21:24   Yeah, I suppose so.

01:21:25   And well, you know, and I also, you can get outside yourself a little bit and be like,

01:21:34   I'm going to write my open letter to Tim Cook and please do this thing.

01:21:39   Right.

01:21:39   And think that like, I'm really going to change some minds at high levels at Apple using,

01:21:44   using this bully pulpit.

01:21:45   And that's like, no, you don't do that.

01:21:49   But the truth is that occasionally I feel like what I write or what I say doesn't change things,

01:22:00   but is used as an example by somebody who's already sort of fighting for whatever thing

01:22:06   it is that I am an advocate for.

01:22:08   And so we're kind of used as, as examples of like, see, they said that these guys are

01:22:14   talking about this.

01:22:14   Obviously this is, you know, like, like I said, this is important, right?

01:22:18   Help, help convince somebody that this is what, that we should do.

01:22:22   What I find delightful really is the random people working on great stuff at Apple who

01:22:29   will come up at WWDC or who will send an email or, or message me in some other way about

01:22:35   doing, about liking the stuff that we do.

01:22:37   That, that delights me because that's the, oh, I work on Safari.

01:22:42   I work on WebKit.

01:22:44   I work on, I work on the magic keyboard, right?

01:22:49   And, and I listen to upgrade or I read six colors or whatever.

01:22:55   Those delight me because again, it's the fact is we mostly speak to a nerdy audience and

01:23:02   those people also work at Apple too.

01:23:06   And, and so that, I just find that fun that they're making stuff because I'm making stuff

01:23:12   that they like, but they're obviously making stuff that I like.

01:23:15   And use every day.

01:23:16   And I don't know, I find that really delightful.

01:23:19   So there's the one level, which is like, you know, not saying that this happened, but something

01:23:24   like it happened, which is like Phil Schiller listened to what you said.

01:23:26   And he was very disappointed.

01:23:28   You can get those things as like, oh boy, what does this mean now?

01:23:32   And those are, they are what they are, right?

01:23:35   The PR people are always paying attention and that's always been the case.

01:23:39   It's still the case.

01:23:40   That's just the name of the game.

01:23:43   But there is this other level that is super delightful and it's the people who were working

01:23:47   at Apple and they're working on stuff and they're making stuff and they, they care about

01:23:52   this stuff too, just like we do.

01:23:53   Right.

01:23:54   And that, that is the stuff that really delights me honestly, is running into somebody outside

01:23:59   the talk show on the street in San Jose and having them say, I work on WebKit, I work

01:24:06   on Safari, and I love upgrade or something like that.

01:24:09   That's great.

01:24:09   Cause it's like, I am star struck by that and blown away that they listen to what we

01:24:16   say or read what we write.

01:24:17   One of my favorite interactions like that was WWDC many years ago.

01:24:21   And I bumped into somebody, uh, live after a live recording and they were like, I work

01:24:28   on a thing that you're really going to like, but I can't tell you what it is.

01:24:35   And then a couple of years later, this thing came out and they messaged me and said, it

01:24:41   was that.

01:24:42   And I was like, you were right.

01:24:43   I love that feature.

01:24:46   So that kind of starts really fun.

01:24:48   And it, there is a, I echo everything you said, there's something really nice about

01:24:54   it.

01:24:54   And it's, it's, it's heartwarming to me in a way because, uh, you know, I, I, it, you

01:25:02   know, it just, it, it means something to me from having been around, uh, being cared about

01:25:07   this stuff for so long.

01:25:08   Um, but I do also understand that, like you're saying, sometimes you, we know that things

01:25:20   that we say can have an impact and I take that responsibility seriously.

01:25:25   So I continue to put the work in.

01:25:28   And it's walking that line between taking that responsibility seriously without taking

01:25:32   yourself too seriously.

01:25:33   Cause I've definitely run into people who are like, well, you know, I'm going to write

01:25:37   about this and that's going to go to the higher ups.

01:25:39   They're going to consider my opinion very seriously.

01:25:42   It's like, no, they're not.

01:25:43   Come on.

01:25:43   Maybe they will probably not.

01:25:46   Don't, don't write it because of that.

01:25:48   No, be an advocate for the user, be an advocate for the people who buy these products, call

01:25:52   them out.

01:25:53   But it's probably not going to go like, you're, you're probably not in Phil Schiller's

01:25:57   RSS reader.

01:25:58   And don't, you know, don't do that.

01:26:02   But, but I will also say I love that there are people working on Apple stuff who care

01:26:09   about, um, this enough that they're listening to this stuff because I think that's a good

01:26:17   sign because the alternative is that the people who are building products at Apple, they don't

01:26:21   care about it.

01:26:22   It's just a job.

01:26:23   They get paid.

01:26:23   They don't, you know, they, they, they're not listening to podcasts about what they,

01:26:27   you know, what they work on.

01:26:28   They're not, they don't care about other stuff that Apple is doing.

01:26:31   They're just there.

01:26:31   And I'm sure there are people like that, but like, I think it's a good sign that, that

01:26:35   we've run into lots of people who work at Apple who really care about this stuff like

01:26:40   we do.

01:26:41   Um, because that's important.

01:26:44   Like you need those people who care about the product, working on the product.

01:26:47   Yeah.

01:26:48   Maybe this makes me sound old.

01:26:51   It definitely makes me feel old, but I know that I hear from and see people that are younger

01:26:56   than me, like some cases like 10 years younger than me who work on this stuff at Apple now.

01:27:01   And I'm just really pleased that they have a similar care though.

01:27:07   Like I did when I was 10 years younger about these exact things, right?

01:27:13   Like about apps and the way that the hardware looks and works and they get excited the same

01:27:19   way I do because it makes me feel like the company that I love and have built a lot of

01:27:26   my life around continues to remain with the same kind of focus as to what I was originally

01:27:34   interested in because the people working there now have a very similar set of sensibilities

01:27:41   to me, even though they're younger.

01:27:43   So cool.

01:27:45   Stitch asks Electron app web app or abandoned a service altogether for one with a native

01:27:50   Mac app.

01:27:51   I think this is in response to my frustration having recently started using hay more seriously

01:27:58   and they have an abysmal Mac app.

01:28:01   Like it is literally a web.

01:28:05   It's just a webpage.

01:28:07   It's just a webpage with an icon, but it's like, it's just really bad, right?

01:28:11   Like it's just like really disappointing.

01:28:13   So I think this is the question.

01:28:15   Do you have a particular feeling?

01:28:17   Personally, I don't have any real upset about Electron apps.

01:28:22   Like it does.

01:28:22   I have no set policy here because it really is just about what the quality of the product

01:28:27   is and what the quality of the service is.

01:28:29   So like I have, our show notes are in Gmail or in Google docs.

01:28:34   So that's a browser.

01:28:36   My web or my, uh, my mail client is Mailplane, which is literally wrapping Gmail in a Mac

01:28:44   application wrapper.

01:28:45   Although they add a whole bunch of stuff like keyboard shortcuts and nice stuff to make

01:28:50   it more than just in a webpage.

01:28:52   Plus it's in Mailplane, which means that if I quit Safari, my mail doesn't go away, which

01:28:56   is a big, that's one of the reasons I hate working in web browsers is that, um, it's

01:29:02   not a one to one.

01:29:03   It's like all your web is in one app.

01:29:05   And it's like, well, I don't really like that.

01:29:06   I want it to be in different apps and yeah, you can do site specific browsers and sometimes

01:29:09   they work and sometimes they don't.

01:29:11   But I also use Slack and I think Slack as an app on the Mac is fine.

01:29:15   I mean, yeah, it's probably using more power and memory than it should, but I'm not going

01:29:21   to not use Slack because of that.

01:29:25   Because in the end, if it does what I want and I like using it, then I'm going to use

01:29:30   it.

01:29:30   So it really varies.

01:29:33   Like all things being equal, I want something when I'm on the Mac that feels like a Mac

01:29:38   app, but that hasn't stopped me from using Google docs and Google sheets a lot.

01:29:43   Um, even though that's just a fake app that's inside a webpage.

01:29:48   So it really, you know, it really depends.

01:29:51   I would like it if all the stuff that I use have a really good Mac app.

01:29:55   I would like that and obviously a good iPad and iPhone app, but I don't have a, there's

01:30:02   no litmus test there.

01:30:03   And like, I try to imagine like, well, what if Slack re implemented, uh, itself on the

01:30:09   Mac and built a native app, but it missed a bunch of features of Slack everywhere else.

01:30:14   And it felt a little bit weird, but it felt more Mac like, and the answer is I don't want

01:30:18   that.

01:30:19   I don't want that.

01:30:20   Somebody sent me an app that they were building that used the Slack API and basically was

01:30:24   like a native version of Slack on the Mac.

01:30:26   And I did not like how it looked.

01:30:28   It felt weird and wrong.

01:30:29   And of course it doesn't match Slack anywhere else.

01:30:32   And like, you know, it's, I don't want something like that.

01:30:37   So it, it, it, it varies.

01:30:40   It's not a single continuum of, you know, what is your app built with?

01:30:44   It is so much about how do I use it?

01:30:47   What's the quality of your app, but a bad webpage inside a wrapper is not, you know,

01:30:53   there's that moment where you're like, well, why, why are you doing this?

01:30:56   Like either write an app that is good or don't have an app.

01:30:59   Those are your choices.

01:31:01   I stumbled across something else today.

01:31:03   The feature it is not important, but this is something that blew my mind.

01:31:06   The iOS app, which is a, I think mostly native iOS app, at least way more native than the

01:31:12   Mac app is native to the Mac, has features that the web app doesn't have.

01:31:18   And I don't know how that's possible because surely this stuff is always easier to implement

01:31:25   on the web than it is in an app.

01:31:28   But they prioritize iOS app development in some way.

01:31:31   I don't, I don't know.

01:31:32   It's just really weird to me.

01:31:33   Well, I, I've been thinking a lot about Mailplane when I heard you talking about Hey on the

01:31:40   Mac, because I think, I mean, Mailplane is not from Google.

01:31:43   It is from a third-party developer, but I think it's great because it gives me everything

01:31:49   I want from the Gmail web interface and adds a sort of layer of Mac-ness on top of it.

01:31:54   I'm like, I think that's a valid way to approach it.

01:31:57   And I think if Hey wanted to do that and really sort of say, look, the Hey Mac app is an interface

01:32:05   on our web interface with Mac stuff that we've sprinkled on top.

01:32:08   I wouldn't have a problem with that.

01:32:10   I think though, you need to be clear, like, what are you doing here?

01:32:13   Are you trying to pretend that you're an app?

01:32:15   But when you click you realize, oh no, it's all a lie.

01:32:19   That's not good.

01:32:20   Don't do that.

01:32:21   Like don't lie about it.

01:32:22   Be what you need to be, but just don't deceive your users about what you are doing.

01:32:28   And last question today comes from Tyler.

01:32:32   Tyler notes that in the most recent beta of iOS 14.5, the Apple logo for iPads, when you

01:32:43   boot up is now in horizontal orientation, landscape orientation.

01:32:50   And asks the question that with something like this, do you think it's possible that

01:32:54   Apple may change the placement of the front facing cameras?

01:32:58   Like maybe they will consider the next iPad pro to truly be a landscape first device.

01:33:05   So I first, I finally saw the orientation of the Apple logo in horizontal yesterday

01:33:14   when I restarted my iPad.

01:33:16   Which I had, I had a moment.

01:33:19   I touched the screen.

01:33:20   I touched the Apple.

01:33:21   I was like, oh, look at you.

01:33:22   Single tear.

01:33:23   And then, and then it, uh, and then it started up and it had the time and the, and the swipe

01:33:29   to unlock, uh, in landscape, which was great.

01:33:33   And the desktop image was a 90 degree rotated.

01:33:38   So, hey, look, you can't always get what you want, right?

01:33:44   It's not all the way there is what I'm saying.

01:33:47   Yeah.

01:33:49   But I don't know, like, I don't know.

01:33:52   I don't know what, what's best ergonomically for them where I think personally, I think

01:34:01   maybe it's best ergonomically to have the camera be on the wide side because you're

01:34:08   less likely to put your finger over it.

01:34:09   And yes, that means it's front and center when you're holding it horizontally.

01:34:13   But even if you're holding or yeah, even if you're holding it vertically, are your

01:34:18   thumbs over it?

01:34:19   It's less likely, right?

01:34:21   Just cause there's more space and you're probably not holding it high up.

01:34:24   You're probably holding it toward the bottom, not in the middle.

01:34:26   So, I mean, if I were at Apple, I would do some ergonomic tests and like, how do, how

01:34:32   do people hold their iPads?

01:34:34   Because you can, you can unlock from either orientation.

01:34:40   So it's really just about where are you less likely to cover it with your fingers?

01:34:47   So I would do it and maybe where it is now is the answer.

01:34:50   I'm skeptical.

01:34:52   I would think maybe you could move it and it would be better, but that's what I would

01:34:55   do.

01:34:56   Cause that's what the goal of this should be is just where can I put these cameras so

01:35:01   that people don't cover them when they're holding their iPad?

01:35:03   Yeah, I just want it on the landscape because it would just be better for me, right?

01:35:09   Like if I'm having a FaceTime call or a Zoom call on my iPad, everything's in landscape

01:35:14   and it's just, it would just suit better for have the way that I would look on the camera

01:35:20   and stuff if it was done that way.

01:35:21   But.

01:35:21   Nevertheless, if you would like to send in a question for us to answer on an episode

01:35:28   of this show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade or use question mark ask

01:35:33   upgrade in the Relay FM members Discord, which you get access to if you support this show

01:35:37   by going to getupgradeplus.com.

01:35:39   You sign up, you become a Relay FM member, you get all of the wonderful benefits that

01:35:43   a Relay FM member gets like access to our Discord and bonus content.

01:35:46   But you also by going to getupgradeplus.com, you get Upgrade Plus, which features ad free

01:35:52   episodes with bonus content every single week.

01:35:56   If you have signed up, thank you so much.

01:35:59   We're very thankful for your support.

01:36:01   If you haven't, go check it out.

01:36:02   I'd also like to thank our sponsors of this week's episode.

01:36:05   That's Ooni, Fitbod and Hover.

01:36:08   If you want to find Jason online, you can go to sixcolors.com, the incomparable dot

01:36:13   com.

01:36:13   He is @jsnell on Twitter, J S N E double L.

01:36:16   I am @imike, I M Y K E.

01:36:19   Before we go, let me tell you about another show here on Relay FM.

01:36:22   Clockwise hosts Dan Morin and Micah Sargent invites two guests every week from a diverse

01:36:27   pool of tech professionals and cover four tech topics in 30 minutes.

01:36:31   Go to relay.fm/clockwise or search clockwise wherever you get your podcasts.

01:36:36   Jason Snow was a founding member of Clockwise.

01:36:38   That's right.

01:36:39   I'm the host emeritus and co-creator of Clockwise and it's a great show.

01:36:42   I'm so glad they're still doing it.

01:36:44   Host emeritus for Clockwise basically means whenever one of the two hosts is on vacation,

01:36:51   Jason is there.

01:36:52   I'm first up.

01:36:53   That's what you get.

01:36:54   Keep watching the clock.

01:36:56   I co-hosted many episodes of Clockwise with you and failed on saying that phrase every

01:37:05   single time.

01:37:06   Every time.

01:37:06   So bad.

01:37:07   Watch what you say and this is a podcast.

01:37:10   Oh God, it was so bad.

01:37:12   Clockwise as a guest is a fun experience, but a really stressful one, especially live clockwise.

01:37:20   They were always worse because you had limited time.

01:37:22   You didn't want to give the host too much editing work.

01:37:25   But it's easy on another level because you get a question and you take turns.

01:37:30   And also you know how long it's going to take you.

01:37:33   Yeah, if you haven't listened, it's short four topics, different voices.

01:37:37   It's a great little almost bite-sized podcast.

01:37:41   It's good.

01:37:42   Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of I was going to say Clockwise,

01:37:46   but this is Upgrade.

01:37:47   Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snell.

01:37:49   Keep watching the clock, Myke.

01:37:51   Oh God.

01:37:53   No!

01:37:53   Bye, everybody.

01:37:55   Bye.

01:37:59   [ Music ]