339: Dogcow and Spinning Rainbow Cursor in Finderland

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 339, and today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,

0:00:15HelloFresh, and Spokes. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hello, Jason Snow.

0:00:21Hello, Fresh. I mean, hello, Myke Hurley.

0:00:23Hello, you can call me Fresh if you like. It's a fun nickname.

0:00:26Okay. All right, babe.

0:00:28Interesting. #snowtalkquestion this week comes from Don and Don wants to know, Jason,

0:00:34what is your favorite flavor or kind of tea?

0:00:37Ah, tea questions. They're almost as bad as weather questions. I like black tea. I like just

0:00:44pure black tea. My morning tea rotation is I have an Irish breakfast, an English breakfast, and I

0:00:54have an Assam full leaf, but they're all just black tea. I like black tea with a little, uh,

0:01:01some would say a lot. I would say a little bit of honey.

0:01:04Oh, okay. You put honey in your black tea.

0:01:07I put honey in my tea. That's my, that's my, my go-to is honey in my tea. My wife puts milk in

0:01:13her tea. Occasionally, she will be very nice and bring me tea. And it's always funny because I seem

0:01:20to know innately how many squeezes of the honey bear it takes to pop properly honey in my tea.

0:01:26And she's gotten it in her head because she doesn't use honey that I am a honey maniac who

0:01:32puts way too much honey in his tea. And so whenever she brings me the tea, it is like honey with tea in

0:01:38it. It's very kind of her, but it's also hilarious. Oh, interesting. That wasn't what I was expecting

0:01:43you were going to say. I think initially she put it a little and I was like, oh, I need to put more

0:01:48honey in this. And now she just overdoes it. And it's funny. So.

0:01:51All right. What, uh, so you, you said English breakfast, Irish breakfast and a psalm.

0:01:58What, what, what takes you to this psalm that feels like the outlier of the three?

0:02:01No. Well, I got it. It's just a, it's a full leaf. So it's, um, it's just longer. And,

0:02:06and they, they, it's actually easier to clean cause they're, they're bigger. They're not

0:02:10little chunks. Um, they, they, I think they, they chop them up into little bits for it to, um, so

0:02:16that it's stronger that it, it works faster, but I use the tea robot. So it's the same amount of time.

0:02:21Every time it's just for variety. I could literally just take the English breakfast

0:02:25and order pounds and pounds of it and just use that. Um, I'm I just, I vary it a little,

0:02:31but it's so slight that I think if you made three cups of the three different kinds and put them in

0:02:36front of me, I probably couldn't tell the difference. If you would like to send in a

0:02:40snow talk question to help us open a show, uh, just send in a tweet with the hashtag snow talk,

0:02:45or use question marks, no talking the relay FM members discord some follow up because I

0:02:49just wanted to follow up on it. Zoom work well last week. So we're using it today. It's the way

0:02:55we're going to record going forward. I'm going to start slowly transitioning all of my other shows

0:03:01to zoom, but I'm waiting for like, I'm waiting to feel comfortable with the changed workflow,

0:03:07which is what has happened, right? Like I still have to get not like set.

0:03:11Well, this is how I feel, uh, as, as the host, you want to like have it down so that when you

0:03:16introduce it to your other shows, it's as painless as possible because you've got it down and like in

0:03:21my editing process and all that kind of stuff. Uh, and just kind of getting that all nice and set,

0:03:27but I'm back in my office now last week, I was not, I was an undisclosed location. So it wasn't

0:03:34the zoom that made it sound different. Even though it was all my same hardware, it was in a totally

0:03:39different room. It was room, not zoom, but now I'm back in my own office. So this is going to be

0:03:51a pretty upstream focused episode today. So I have some upstream headlines then we're going to talk

0:03:59about for all mankind because there's some interesting stuff going on there as it debuts

0:04:02later on this week. And then, uh, we're going to talk about the fracas that you started around, uh,

0:04:09Apple TV, uh, last week. Yeah. A fracas, fracas, as we might say in America, you got a fracas,

0:04:16real fracas going on over there. I don't know if it's fracas here in the UK, but I, I, I, I don't

0:04:22like the way that sounds. So I say fracas instead. Maybe that makes me foolish. It's a hubbub. It's

0:04:27a hubbub. Uh, uh, yeah. One of those kerfuffle. Apple TV plus has secured four Golden Globe

0:04:35nominations this year. I think they had a couple last year, but they got four this time. Uh, Ted

0:04:41Lasso for best TV series, musical comedy, Jason Sudeikis for best performance, Wolfwalkers for

0:04:47best animated film and Bill Murray for best supporting actor in on the rocks, which I haven't

0:04:52seen yet, but I do want to say, uh, do you think you're going to win any of these? Well,

0:04:58it's the Golden Globes, so you can't take them seriously and they do weird stuff,

0:05:01but I think that's why it's quite possible that they will win. Um, because the Golden

0:05:07Globes do wacky pics. They do things that are new. They like to be seen embracing the new.

0:05:13Right. And that's why I think that, um, I, the, what I've read is that the critic's consensus is

0:05:20that Wolfwalkers is probably the best animated film of the year. So it may, it may win not for

0:05:27wacky reasons, but for good reasons. And we, I think it's a real contender for the Oscar. Now,

0:05:32Apple doesn't get the statue, right? It's the makers of the producer of the film would get the

0:05:36statue, but it would still be a feather in Apple's cap. Well, even more so Apple's not even listed

0:05:41because, uh, it was entered into, I think, consideration before Apple picked it up. Yeah,

0:05:46right. Exactly. Apple's basically just distributed it. They did a distribution deal because of COVID

0:05:51and all of that. However, the Ted Lasso picks, I would think that there's a real possibility that

0:05:56one of those Ted Lasso, uh, nominations is going to be a win because of how wacky the Golden Globes

0:06:01is and how they want to do stuff that's new and not well known and Ted Lasso, they often will pick

0:06:06things that are kind of more like cult breaking out. People are starting to talk about it. And I

0:06:11think the Golden Globes voters want to look cool and in the know. And so if they say, you know,

0:06:18Oh yes, everybody else thinks that these shows are the best comedy, but we know it's Ted Lasso.

0:06:22Then they look cool. So it wouldn't shock me if Ted Lasso or especially like Jason Sudeikis

0:06:28might get something there, but we'll, we'll see. I think there's a chance though. I think there's

0:06:32a real chance more than I would say the Emmys because the Emmys tend to be not always,

0:06:37but they tend to be much more kind of on inertia. And when you win Emmys, like a lot of small shows

0:06:43that are cult followings that are really great, but aren't widely known tend to get their Emmy

0:06:48nominations and wins. Like the last thing about Schitt's Creek, it was the last season that got

0:06:54the nominations. Schitt's Creek is the issue, I think for the Golden Globes too. I just looked

0:06:58it up. They've never even been nominated for a Golden Globe before. And so like Schitt's Creek

0:07:04cleaned up at the Emmys because the show was over. Right. So, and it was, and it is incredible.

0:07:09So they were kind of like, we're just gonna give it all the awards and they're nominated again in

0:07:13every category. So I think Schitt's Creek really is like probably the biggest contender here.

0:07:20It's going to be a challenge. I read a story that handicapped the Golden Globes and said that they

0:07:23thought that Jason Sudeikis or Ted Lasso really did have a chance because there's, there's two

0:07:27ways to go with the Golden Globes, which is the obvious choice, which is Schitt's Creek. And

0:07:31there's the, oh, it's the Golden Globes. They're going to do something wacky and that was, and

0:07:35that's Ted Lasso. So it's, it's possible. But, um, my point about the Emmys is more that if you

0:07:42really love Ted Lasso and it continues to be great for the next three seasons, then stay tuned for

0:07:47season three, when they will finally get an Emmy nomination as the, as they finish up and are on

0:07:52their way out the door. Cause that seems to be how it works for a lot of the, the Emmy stuff.

0:07:56Disney+ has now hit 95 million paid subscribers. They're up 8 million more in a month when they,

0:08:04they, they just reported this, uh, cause they, they, we knew the number from their courtly

0:08:09earnings and now they've hit 95. So they've just told everyone they've done it. Um, because why not?

0:08:14And this made me want to ask, cause I think one of the, potentially one of the drivers is

0:08:19WandaVision. Uh, no spoilers. Have you been watching WandaVision? No. Yes, I have. Oh,

0:08:23okay. Well, you might not have, I don't know. Um, no. In fact, it is, um, I've been really

0:08:28thinking about this as the Disney+ original content strategy. So you and I have talked

0:08:34for a while now about we knew Disney+ was coming. They said it was coming and then it arrived and

0:08:39we're like, okay. But after the Mandalorian finished, like there's content, but it's the

0:08:44library and like, what is their original content thing? And again, you can do a service with,

0:08:48with a library like Disney's, you can do a service like that. But one of the ways you motivate people

0:08:52to sign up is original content rolling out. And so maybe WandaVision and the buzz around WandaVision

0:08:58has been part of it. This is the, for those who don't know, it's a Marvel show. It's the first

0:09:02show, uh, set essentially officially done by Marvel studios. The other TV shows that they've

0:09:08done recently were by a different arm, a TV arm of Marvel that was not run by the people who made

0:09:14the movies and didn't really feature the people who were in the movies with a couple of footnotes.

0:09:19Um, and now it's sort of like characters from the movies that you recognize and WandaVision is the

0:09:23first one it's got Scarlet Witch and Vision and some other characters from Marvel universe in it.

0:09:29And the reason I was thinking about this is, uh, Mandalorian became, it's actually our only,

0:09:36with our 16 year old son, our family appointment television. Like on Friday night, we all sit down

0:09:45together and watched, you know, we watched the Mandalorian and we transferred that right over

0:09:51into WandaVision. We sit down on Friday night as a family and we watch WandaVision together.

0:09:56And, you know, we watch like movies. We'll be like, Oh, Julian, we're going to do this movie

0:10:00and, you know, come and watch it and all that. We do that. And he'll choose, he can choose,

0:10:03right? He's interested in this. Right. But TV shows, not so much. In fact,

0:10:07one of the things that we will reliably watch with him is, um, is Marvel movies, old and new.

0:10:13He's got the stuff he's interested in the stuff he's not, and that's fine. And we've got the stuff

0:10:17we're interested in. He's not, and that's fine. So what strikes me about WandaVision is following

0:10:23Mandalorian, I'm like, we've had a pretty good run here with, there've been a little bit of a gap,

0:10:26but not much where you just sort of have this appointment viewing of there's always a new,

0:10:31uh, Disney show on a Friday night. And that is exactly what we were talking about,

0:10:35which is you want to have a situation where you always have to be subscribed to Disney plus,

0:10:40and you feel you're getting your money's worth because there's always appointment viewing of a

0:10:44new original plus your access to the catalog. And I was thinking about this cause WandaVision's

0:10:50only got three episodes left. So three more weeks of WandaVision before it's done. And I was like,

0:10:56oh, but this has been so nice. And then I thought, yeah, but Falcon and the Winter Soldier starts in

0:11:02March. I believe it is the next week. It might be a week after, but it's, it's right there.

0:11:09And because the pandemic, it's not all going to flow quite as seamlessly as that,

0:11:14but that is the idea for all of these streaming services, especially the ones with franchises.

0:11:19So if you can imagine, and I looked it up on, on Wikipedia afterward, um, you know,

0:11:24there's this Marvel show and there's also this Marvel show that's coming, um, this summer. And

0:11:28there's this Marvel show and this other Marvel show that are coming this fall. And there's also

0:11:32the book of Boba Fett that's coming in December. And, you know, I think the idea is that you will

0:11:41not be able to get away from Disney plus for even a month as new Marvel and star Wars and other

0:11:47originals come out. And we're loving it. And it immediately makes me think, you know, Disney plus

0:11:56is a destination and I'll just say it as a lifelong star Trek fan, that is absolutely what CBS all

0:12:02access, which is about to turn into paramount. Plus, like we said last week, that's what they're

0:12:06doing with star Trek is the same thing is they want to have, and they haven't been able to do

0:12:10it. They're in a lull now actually because of the pandemic, but you know, their goal

0:12:14is that there should, you know, if not every week, like. With, with very minimal gaps,

0:12:19there should be a star Trek show rolling out on paramount plus. And that if you are, if you want

0:12:24that stream of entertainment, easy, just sign up for paramount plus and you get it. And this is

0:12:28part, it's not the whole strategy. It's not a star Trek streaming service. This is not a Marvel

0:12:33streaming service, but it helps one set of audience members, uh, be welded to your service. So I I'm,

0:12:42and I'm excited about that too, because it means that we'll have Friday, uh, TV night with my son,

0:12:46um, for a while now because of Disney plus. So, um, so yeah, I'm loving Wanda vision, um,

0:12:52for people who haven't tried it yet, it is. Uh, have you watched it, Myke? Yeah, I'm up to date.

0:12:57Okay. Um, again, we're not going to spoil anything, but I'll speak broadly about it and say,

0:13:01what's interesting about Wanda vision is that because it's not a movie, they're using the

0:13:09episode by episode week by week format to tell an ongoing story, but also have the individual

0:13:16episodes feel unique. Yeah. I've never seen a TV show like this one. It's it's peculiar,

0:13:23um, in a good way. I will also say that its commitment to its premise is so strong

0:13:30that the first couple episodes you're like, what am I watching? You know, it's really good. They

0:13:35did the whole, like, here's three and then we'll go every week. I think it was two, they dropped

0:13:40two and it's the very end of the second episode where it sort of like pulls back the curtain a

0:13:46little and says, this is actually the show you're watching. Yeah. Um, and, and that's why they dropped

0:13:51those two episodes. I think is that if people had just seen episode one, they'd be like, I is,

0:13:55is it a sitcom now? Because that's basically the premise of it, but, uh, I think it's really

0:14:00brilliant. Uh, I've loved it. And if this is, and this was not originally their launch show,

0:14:05Falcon and winter soldier was going to be their launch show, but because of the pandemic,

0:14:08they weren't done shooting it and they had to go back and remount the filming to get it done. Um,

0:14:14whereas this one was apparently close enough that they were able to get it ready to go and get it

0:14:19out the door. Um, it's, it's probably weirder and less conventional than they wanted to launch

0:14:25Marvel on Disney plus then Falcon and winter soldier will probably be much more Falcon

0:14:30winter soldier is very like this. Yeah. This is a Marvel movie kind of. Yeah. They did a trailer

0:14:34for it and we got to the end and Lauren said to me, wait, that's not a movie. It's a TV show.

0:14:41Cause it might as well be a movie. One division looks like, I mean, it, it, it, the look of it

0:14:46all. I mean, it's fantastic friend of the show, Todd Visserie tweeted, um, last week,

0:14:52something to the effect of you need to stop talking about movie effects and TV effects.

0:15:00Because I realized the budgets may be different. I don't know any of the behind the scenes

0:15:05business, but I'll tell you what is on screen. It's a Marvel movie, right? Like it doesn't feel

0:15:10like they cheaped out and it's a really bad effect like that you wouldn't see in a movie.

0:15:16I just don't feel like it does. I feel like they've, this doesn't feel like a cheap

0:15:20version of Marvel. This feels like a Marvel movie being told in installments instead.

0:15:25And that is, and not necessarily from storytelling. Like I said, I think the individual

0:15:30episodes do, uh, have their own feel and the weekly release lets you talk about like, what

0:15:36did we just see in a way that's very effective, but it, it, uh, Falcon and winter soldier feels

0:15:43much more, uh, conventional in the sense that it does feel kind of like it's a Marvel movie

0:15:48chopped up into, I don't know what it is, six episodes, I think six pieces. Um, but, uh, I,

0:15:53I think, I think it's good. And I think it's a good sign that the Marvel studios people are really

0:15:58are bringing their a game. Clearly we know from the message from the top at Disney from Disney's,

0:16:02uh, previous CEO and their current CEO that, uh, Disney pluses is basically a huge part of

0:16:09Disney's future and that theatrical will continue as well, but that they are considering Disney plus,

0:16:14uh, in some ways their primary output medium output source. So, well, it's all going there

0:16:23eventually. So it's important, right? Exactly. So of course, Marvel studios has gotten the message,

0:16:27which is do not make, you know, second rate stuff, make your, bring your a game to this.

0:16:34And they seem to be, so I've been enjoying it. Uh, HBO max is going to be launching in some

0:16:40international markets in June with more set for later in the year. Um, there's,

0:16:45it seems pretty localized the June launch to, I believe it's, uh, Latin America, uh, mostly,

0:16:52and then it's going to be some of the Nordic countries, some of Europe, um, later on in the

0:16:56year, the UK is not on this list at all, uh, which I'm not surprised about. I think we spoke

0:17:02about it before. Um, I hate the HBO and sky deal is pretty linked, but as I said previously, okay,

0:17:11but what about the original content? Right. That's the issue because currently like we can get all of

0:17:18HBO's content in the UK through sky. And we subscribe to a service here called now TV,

0:17:24which is a sky is purely digital, uh, arm, which I've spoken about before. Uh, and we

0:17:30subscribe to the entertainment package and we can watch shows and all that kind of stuff,

0:17:33but none of HBO max original content is available there. So HBO work it out, right? Like, yeah,

0:17:41it sounds like they're, they're actually selling. This is a sign that it's not coming anytime soon,

0:17:47right? Is that they are selling their originals to places like sky in the UK. So like, uh,

0:17:54the original content, the HBO max pure content is not available. The flight attendant, which is,

0:17:59uh, an HBO max original. I'm looking at a story now. I just picked it as an idea. They,

0:18:04they sold it to sky. Okay. Well that will premiere in 2021 on, on sky somewhere. So,

0:18:10so it seems like they're basically at this point selling content into markets that they're not

0:18:16going to go in yet. That's just seems like they do on it on like a pick and choose, right? Like

0:18:22it's so stupid. I agree. I agree. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. I feel your pain. All right. This

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0:20:13All right, so let's talk about For All Mankind because Apple has wrapped the promotional machine

0:20:19up to 22 on this one. The second season for all mankind of For All Mankind debuts to the moon.

0:20:26Diamond Hands, it debuts this week on Friday, I think. Now, they're going back to weekly release.

0:20:35Do you know, is it going to be one at a time or are they going to dump a couple and then go?

0:20:39One at a time. One at a time, baby.

0:20:42They're killing me out. Well, I've been really excited for this.

0:20:44I love the weekly release. I like weekly releases, but I want like two,

0:20:48right? I want two and then weekly. That's what I want. I don't want the whole.

0:20:51My understanding is that it's just episode one on Friday.

0:20:54Okay, okay. Because that's what I really liked about when they debuted. And again,

0:21:01what we were just talking about, WandaVision, I want a couple so I can get into it again, you know,

0:21:05and then go weekly. And I could wait, like that's what we did with WandaVision.

0:21:10We actually wait until there was four of them and then we watched them and then caught up.

0:21:13Or three or four of them and caught up. And I could wait, but I can't wait because I've been

0:21:17really excited for this show to return because of what they did going from season one to season two

0:21:23where there's a time jump and I'm really intrigued to see what they do there.

0:21:30But today Apple announced that they are going to be doing a weekly pod... Okay, a watch along

0:21:37kind of podcast, an official podcast. Sort of.

0:21:39Of For All Mankind. Now this is something that we kind of expected was coming. There's been lots of

0:21:45reports about them moving into this. And this was one of the things that I think Bloomberg reported

0:21:50that Apple would do because it seems like the obvious kind of first step for them, which is

0:21:56take the content that they're already making on TV plus and make companion podcasts. And this has

0:22:02been done to some good effect. I know that you've spoken very highly about both The Good Place and

0:22:07Chernobyl and I think Watchmen's podcasts. And Watchmen too.

0:22:10And it's going to be hosted by Chris Marshall who plays Danielle Poole on the show. So I like that.

0:22:16It's hosted by somebody on the show. And the good thing about these types of podcasts is

0:22:21where you can actually get the people on. So I was talking about The West Wing, that I've been

0:22:25watching The West Wing. And people were recommending to me The West Wing Weekly. But I didn't want to

0:22:30listen because we were binging The West Wing. So it wasn't really possible for me to watch.

0:22:35But now I miss The West Wing so much. I'm now just listening to The West Wing Weekly.

0:22:39And what's so great about that, which I didn't know initially, is it's hosted by one of the

0:22:42people that's in the show. So they just get whoever they want on. And these shows are...

0:22:48No disrespect to my many friends, including you, who make watch along shows. It is really great

0:22:55when you can have the people involved in the thing, right? No disrespect taken because once you've got

0:23:00the people involved and it's the official podcast, you also can't criticize it. So it works both ways.

0:23:05Exactly. You do lose something. Yep. But you gain something. And I've enjoyed some of the official

0:23:10podcasts. Again, I don't... I listen to official podcasts for interesting behind the scenes

0:23:18discussion of how the art was made. And I listen to discussions, unofficial discussions about

0:23:25the TV shows for analysis and criticism of the art. Different. It's just different.

0:23:31And like wish-casting and all that kind of stuff, right? Like they are... You're right.

0:23:34Sure. They're different. One is behind the scenes. The other is fandom of the thing.

0:23:39Exactly. And one of them is tightly integrated and it's got all the stuff. And again, you don't get

0:23:46that access otherwise, right? Like you're not going to get one of the actors from For All Mankind

0:23:51to talk about every episode and what they didn't like about it. This is not going to happen.

0:23:55Why didn't it work in this episode? Oh, my part was terrible.

0:23:58Your co-star did a bad job that day. Did he not get sleep the night before? What's going on there?

0:24:04But this is wild to me. So the first episode comes out with the first episode of the show.

0:24:12Then the show's weekly, but the podcast is fortnightly. This feels like falling at the

0:24:16first hurdle. Why would you do this? I don't know. Watchmen did this too. And I

0:24:22can't decide whether it's just that it's cheaper or what, but it does seem unfortunate, right? Like

0:24:30you want to kind of create this more tight connection between episode and podcast if

0:24:38you're releasing weekly. And that didn't happen. It's kind of one of those things. No disrespect

0:24:43to the people involved. If I do it right or don't do it. The Watchmen podcast was great,

0:24:47but it was frustrating that they'd be like, "Well, now we're going to talk about this week's episode

0:24:51and also last week's episode." Yeah. Like, "But why didn't you?" Yeah, it's strange, but I'm looking

0:24:58forward to listening because I'm curious. Honestly, I'm just curious about what the Apple take. And

0:25:02they're working with a company that produces, an outside company that produces podcasts to do this.

0:25:06This is not being made by Apple's in-house, but it's being made for Apple for one of its shows.

0:25:13So I'm interested in seeing how they take on the idea of the official podcast of a show that

0:25:20they're rolling out. Is it available outside of Apple podcasts? It's unclear to me. I don't know.

0:25:27Huh. We'll ask Marco. We'll see. I mean, I did a quick search on Overcast and nothing comes up,

0:25:32but it did only appear today with the trailer. Yeah, right. Exactly. Huh. I wonder what they're

0:25:38going to do there. I don't know. You'd think that they'd want to promote it regardless. Yeah,

0:25:41because this is ostensibly marketing for... Yeah, my gut feeling is that it'll be available

0:25:48elsewhere too, because they want everybody to see For All mankind. And what happens the next time,

0:25:54right? Is there an official morning show podcast? What are they going to do for the rest of their

0:25:59shows? Is this the new rollout plan or is this an experiment? I don't know. I think they should. I

0:26:03think it's a good idea. Really. It's just like, it's an additional thing you can do. People that

0:26:07really love the show can also continue to consume content along with the show. I'll be super into

0:26:14this for a Ted Lasso. Oh man. Yeah. I would really like that, like a Ted Lasso podcast as well.

0:26:20I'm intrigued. I'm very intrigued to check out both of these things. I'm going to say.

0:26:27There was another thing though that they did for All Mankind, which was an AR game type experience

0:26:35thing. So it's called For All Mankind Time Capsule. If you check this out all, I went through it all

0:26:40today. I have not looked at it yet. Okay. It doesn't take very long. It's probably like a

0:26:44half an hour type thing. But it's effectively a bunch of little vignettes that you tell us.

0:26:51It's telling a story of some of the intervening time between season one and season two. And you

0:26:57get to see, uh, like kind of part of the family life of the Stevens family. So Gordo and Tracy

0:27:05Stevens, like it's, you see some of their family life a little bit, which is super interesting

0:27:10because of the way their stories go towards the end of season one. Um, TJ has found, uh,

0:27:17Yeah. There's a, there's a RSS URL and I just added it to my overcast and it worked. So there

0:27:22you go for All Mankind is you can listen in whatever your podcast player of choice is.

0:27:27So I want to just touch on this real quickly because this is super interesting to me. Yeah.

0:27:31Um, so pause on the For All Mankind, uh, AR game. The RSS feed or the website is, is with art 19.

0:27:40Art 19 is a hosting and production company. And I can't work out why Apple would

0:27:51choose any specific company like this, which I think just shows that the production company

0:27:58that is involved with this, I think maybe has, uh, a lot of the rollout plans.

0:28:04Cause I just can't work out why Apple would choose any, maybe that at will media, which is the name

0:28:11of the company that is producing the show for, for Apple. Um, at will media works with art 19

0:28:18for distribution and they told Apple we're handling the whole thing and Apple is like,

0:28:23great. You do it, go to town. We're not going to do this now. That's super interesting to me.

0:28:29I'll have to talk to, I'll talk to Lex about it. I'll talk to our friend Lex. I didn't want to

0:28:32mention it, but yeah. Okay. I wasn't going to, but you did. Yeah. Our friend Lex Friedman works on

0:28:3719 and, uh, interesting. Anyway. So the, the For All Mankind game, it's, it's as they call it,

0:28:45a story was seen between seasons one and two, which it really is. And it's beautiful. Like

0:28:52it is a really nice, really wonderful experience that they've created. If you enjoy the show,

0:28:59download this and try it out. Like I was quite surprised by how moving I found it honestly.

0:29:06And it's got voice acting, uh, from sad spy. I can't remember his name, Michael Dorman,

0:29:13who plays Gordo. Um, he has, he's lent his voice to the game. So there's some, some,

0:29:19some like vocal work there, quite a bit of it actually in the game. And I don't know,

0:29:23it does a good job of setting the timeframe of the show. There's a lot of music in it,

0:29:27a lot of music you would like Jason, uh, specifically. I really liked it. What I'll

0:29:32say though, is my iPhone got incredibly hot doing this. Like, cause you're in AR for the whole time.

0:29:37So it's like half an hour of just AR and like the top left hand corner of my phone. I couldn't even

0:29:42touch it. It got so hot. Uh, so that's where the process is. Get ready to wear that on your face.

0:29:48Oh God. Catch your hand on fire. That's why there's a fan. Yeah. So there's gotta be a fan

0:29:53in a, in a AR headset, right? Kind of my thinking, my point about both of these things, the podcast

0:29:58and this AR game, they have gone all out here for, for All Mankind. Do you want to know how

0:30:05all out they've gone? Like, would you like to know? I can exclusively reveal that there's a

0:30:11special episode of Liftoff on Thursday with, um, for All Mankind content in it.

0:30:18Cause we got to talk to Ron Moore, the co-creator and executive producer for Liftoff about, for All

0:30:25Mankind season two. So people check that out on relay FM. I'll put a link in the show notes to

0:30:31Liftoff. Uh, that was pretty awesome. We did that last week and, uh, that was like, I was impressed

0:30:37with that. They're like, for All Mankind's coming out, you got a space podcast. Let's do it. Like,

0:30:41yeah, it was great. I am very excited. Uh, I knew this was coming and I cannot wait to listen to it.

0:30:47So, uh, I, I, when I found out I knew how excited you would be, right? Cause it's like,

0:30:53look at my world's coming together. I can't even tell you how excited I was to talk to him. And I

0:31:00had to, I had to keep it together because I've literally watched all the shows that he's worked

0:31:06on. Like I said at the beginning, before we got started, I'm like, love your work from Star Trek to

0:31:12to, to Battlestar Galactica to Outlander. Um, and now to, for All Mankind. So that was, that was,

0:31:19uh, when we were done with that interview, I realized that I had, I had, I had been stressing

0:31:24out about it for like a week. I would have been terrified. So that's really conversation slash

0:31:30liftoff. Go subscribe to the show now and you'll get that when it drops later on this week. I'm

0:31:36very excited to hear it. Uh, I'm going to keep my eye on the CMS and just pull that one down as soon

0:31:41as, just for me, as soon as you see it go up there. Um, so with this, of all of this, they are

0:31:48going all out and this is not, not all of their shows are getting this attention, right? So,

0:31:55Servant season two, Dickinson season two, they're both out. There's ads for them. I know that,

0:32:00but this is like a whole next level. So I think what we're seeing here is Apple creating basically

0:32:07like a tiered version, like system of their programming, like what they consider to be

0:32:11their flagship shows are getting this type of promotion or Sony, the production company,

0:32:17is paying for it. I don't, I don't know, right? This is something we don't know about,

0:32:21about like kind of the, the, the goings on inside, but this is very clearly, uh,

0:32:28enhanced promotion for this show over some of their other programming, which may be tied in

0:32:34with the originals too. Like there was a, uh, this show and the morning show, especially got a lot of

0:32:41the initial press going into it. Um, do you think that we will see, I mean, this kind of heavy

0:32:47promotion for say morning show and probably Ted Lasso as well? Like with all of this stuff, not

0:32:53just the podcast, but the whole like dog and pony show. Yeah, I'm clear with it.

0:32:57I'm unclear whether this is a test or whether this is the new kind of a tier promotion thing,

0:33:06or whether they've got a, like a whole palette of promotional options. And for each show,

0:33:11they do a rollout plan. This is the most I've seen for any of those Apple shows. So

0:33:15it'll be interesting to see the next premiere. What happens, what shows get the podcast,

0:33:21what shows get the special AR content? Is there a track where there's like things to choose from,

0:33:28or do they brainstorm specific things? And we're only going to see AR for this because they thought

0:33:33it was the best fit for the content. I don't know, but, um, it is interesting to see them

0:33:40doing this at a level that they weren't before for this. And I, you know, I think that's good.

0:33:47I'm very excited for the show. I can't wait. Yeah, I've seen episode one and two and you know,

0:33:54it's good. It's a really good show. Look at me. I'm so fancy. Look at me.

0:33:57I've been using this for a few weeks and I can say that it's a pretty good show.

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0:36:13Relay FM. Okay, so you wrote a couple of articles last week about the AMP TV.

0:36:20Boy did I.

0:36:21Yeah, you did. You really got into it.

0:36:22Oh yeah, I did. I wrote those articles.

0:36:25And a bunch of tweets too. So you were building on a conversation that was on dithering between

0:36:34John Gruber and Ben Thompson about the Apple TV and they were pondering what could be next

0:36:39for the Apple TV, but you kind of took it from a different angle of like, should the Apple TV have

0:36:46a next? Basically.

0:36:48Yeah, well, and why, why does it exist? It was really, it was really like, why, why is it here?

0:36:54The premise being that with it's, I would say it's two most important unique features gone,

0:37:02not removed from the product, but not unique anymore, which is airplay support and the TV app

0:37:07with those. So access to every iTunes movie you ever bought,

0:37:12every TV show you ever bought, plus rentals, plus Apple TV plus roll all that in there.

0:37:20Those are available on modern TVs and streamer boxes, including, you know, streamer boxes,

0:37:27at least in the U S you can buy a streamer box with all that stuff on it that does 4k,

0:37:32HDR for 35 bucks. So my point was we've got a thing that costs five times that and doesn't do

0:37:41those features uniquely anymore. So what, what is in the, in the list of advantages, you know,

0:37:48the list of assets for, uh, for the Apple TV and, and where do they go from here? Like,

0:37:57what could they do to make it, um, you know, more popular as a product? What, what could they add?

0:38:06What features could they add and what are the issues? So it's sort of like,

0:38:09let's come up with what it does, what it still does that is unique, and then also kind of ponder

0:38:15what it could do to be, um, more successful than it is. Oh, I'll remind everybody that the, uh,

0:38:22Apple TV got an F in the, in the report card on six colors as well. So yeah, for these reasons,

0:38:29the reasons, your article, the things we're going to talk about, but the thing is like,

0:38:32Apple's doing the right thing in making AirPlay and the TV app available in many places. This is

0:38:42the right thing for the strategy. I think it makes sense, right? Like at this point, if you're buying

0:38:47a new TV, it's actually pretty hard to not have some combination of these features. You're probably

0:38:53going to get the Apple TV app no matter what you get. And then some TV sets also have AirPlay. Like

0:38:59most major manufacturers have some kind of set, a set of these features now. But even if you don't,

0:39:04I mean, you can get a fire TV stick for, for, you know, the few tens of dollars that those things

0:39:09cost and you'll get the Apple TV app. Right. So very easy to get now. I want to say something

0:39:14upfront here because I got a lot of feedback on Twitter about this. I'm not trying to take your

0:39:18Apple TV away from you. I'm not saying you're a dummy for buying an Apple TV, especially not two

0:39:23years ago. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the Apple TV. I use the Apple TV every day,

0:39:28but I am saying if you want this product to be successful, cause you like it,

0:39:32other people should probably also, you know, buy it so that more people can buy it and more people

0:39:38can use it and developers can focus more on it and all of those things, uh, for it to be more

0:39:42successful, you want to have it have a viable audience and market. And right now it seems like

0:39:50that's a tough one. So as of right now, the things that set the Apple TV box apart, uh,

0:40:00point one Apple makes it. So if they're going to add features to the ecosystem, in theory,

0:40:06if they could affect the TV, then you'll get them rolled in. Right. And you can see this with some

0:40:12HomeKit stuff, for example, you know, like when they add HomeKit secure video, well, they added

0:40:17the ability for you to see those cameras on your Apple TV. And if you were using the TV app, uh,

0:40:23and on your Samsung TV or your OG TV, you're not going to get that. Right. So there's some benefit

0:40:29there to being in the ecosystem. Um, it can play games from Apple arcade. If that's your jam,

0:40:35it has support for HomePods. I don't want to get started. I was happy to see that you put in your

0:40:42article that I mentioned you in there. Cause I heard from people who are like, Oh, I just play

0:40:46my HomePods for my Apple TV. And it's such, it's so great. And I thought, well, that's nice. But

0:40:51I also know that Myke tries to do that and he's miserable. Like I saw, uh, John Gruber linked to

0:40:56it and he said that he does this and it works great for him. I don't know what other people

0:41:01are doing that I'm not doing, but I mean, it really isn't great for me, but there you go.

0:41:06Uh, it's a HomeKit hub, which is good, but becoming less good. So many devices can be

0:41:11HomeKit hubs now. Um, you know, right. It's becoming less of a, uh, what I tried to say

0:41:18is if it's a HomeKit hub, which is great. If you don't have a HomePod, if you don't have an iPad in

0:41:22your house, which, you know, a lot of people are going to have an iPad in their house and don't

0:41:26actually the fact that it is a HomeKit hub is not necessarily, you know, it's a unique feature sort

0:41:33of, but there are other Apple products that do it. So even though it's unique for streamer boxes,

0:41:37it's not necessarily, uh, unique for Apple products. And you listed the remote here.

0:41:43Yeah. Well, it's different, right? And I, there are things about the remote that I like. I feel

0:41:50like Apple could do a redesign of that remote that kept some of the features like the, the trackpad

0:41:55and make it better. Um, I just didn't want to cast the remote down and say like, and the remote is a

0:42:02total disaster because I have a love hate relationship with a remote, but I switched to using the

0:42:10Logitech harmony remote for Apple TV. You know, I have a universal remote, the Logitech harmony,

0:42:15and it will control the Apple TV, but all it does is buttons. And I would occasionally get in

0:42:20scenarios where I would be in a show and I'd want to jump back 20 minutes or forward 50 minutes, or,

0:42:26you know, and find that, that moment. And then, and by swiping, you know, you click to go into,

0:42:31into scrub mode and then you can sort of swipe over to find where you want to be. And then you

0:42:36click again and you're there and you can't do that with buttons, at least not the way that it's built

0:42:41right now. And I really like that. And I use it all the time. And I heard from a lot of people who

0:42:45use Siri commands all the time. Uh, I don't, but I know a lot of people do. So there's things about

0:42:50that remote that are not, it's not universally terrible, even though it's got lots of issues,

0:42:54it's slippery. You need to orient it properly and you can't do that on feel. Um, you can bump

0:43:00against it. It's all, it's all true. Yeah. You bump against it. Somebody wrote in an acquaintance of

0:43:07mine, wrote in on Twitter and said something like you bump it and, and touch it wrong. And suddenly

0:43:14you're in a different dimension. And I laughed at that because I absolutely had that. In fact,

0:43:19I had that happen just the other night where I, uh, I bumped it with my elbow and it started to

0:43:25fall off and I grabbed it. And, and meanwhile I was sitting at the menu in, uh, on the Apple TV,

0:43:31I launched an app and it started to play something and I'm like, no. And then, and then I realized

0:43:37that it was, I had caught it upside down in my hand. So I was pressing the wrong buttons

0:43:42and I was just like, Oh, Apple TV remote. Right? Like it was just one of those moments of like,

0:43:47this is why people hate you. Um, but it has its positives too. I don't, I don't, it's not like

0:43:54the hockey puck mouse or something from the original iMac. It's not that bad, but it it's got,

0:43:58it's got issues, but it's also got upside. So they could, they could reinvent it in some way.

0:44:04Um, but I do think it is a unique feature and there are things about it that some people like.

0:44:08So honestly, like I look at this list and I don't, you know,

0:44:15well, yeah, yeah, this is, this is the thing. And, and I got a lot of feedback from people

0:44:21are like, Oh, here's some other things that it does that I like. So we got the, um,

0:44:27I use it to do screensavers in my photos and iCloud photos. And I, uh, I like the sophistication of

0:44:37the apps because these are sort of like iOS apps. And so they've got all sorts of, uh, things that

0:44:42they can do. Um, a lot of people brought up fitness plus integration, which I agree is a good example

0:44:48of Apple trying to add something to the Apple TV recently to make it, uh, to give it a unique

0:44:56benefit, which is it's super integrated with fitness plus now you're going to be able to

0:45:01airplay the fitness app from your iPhone or iPad to any device that supports airplay in the next

0:45:09full release of iOS, but it won't show your, uh, your live data, although it'll show it on your

0:45:15watch. Um, and so it's one of those things where I agree, it's really nice. Also, I'm not entirely

0:45:21convinced that Apple will not make an effort to make that available everywhere as well,

0:45:26because they want fitness plus to have value more than they want to sell fitness plus users in Apple

0:45:32TV, but we'll see us. Um, people mentioned the TV app integration, which we talked about here.

0:45:37Uh, if you don't use Netflix, uh, all the other stuff you're watching, you can sit in the TV app

0:45:42and it sort of knows, and it'll launch you out to those apps and it can create a sort of single

0:45:46front end and watch list for everything you do. It's true. I don't use it that much because I do

0:45:50use Netflix, but for everything that actually does share data, it is a pretty nice interface.

0:45:55And I can see that that has some real value. Um, and if Netflix was part of the party,

0:46:00it would be, uh, even better. I wish they could make that work somehow. Right. And the big one

0:46:06that I heard from a lot of people is I had, I had an item that was it's from Apple, right. And I

0:46:13tried to roll a bunch of stuff in there. Like I just buy Apple stuff and I don't worry about it.

0:46:18Um, you know, Apple logo is on it. It's the, it's the ecosystem owner, platform owner. It's nicer,

0:46:27like all the things that are it's from Apple as opposed to it's from some other company.

0:46:32What a lot of people hit me back about was also it's from Apple means I trust Apple in terms of

0:46:40my data. And I don't trust random company that makes this software, whether it's Amazon or Roku

0:46:48or Samsung or whoever. And so their argument is I buy the Apple TV because, um, I trust it in terms

0:46:57of my privacy in a way that, um, I don't trust those other companies now. Yeah, that's a personal

0:47:03choice. I think, and this is a thing that we've talked about on the show a bit. I think that it

0:47:09can be overstated. Um, I think I see in those arguments, a lot of people who read that one story

0:47:17about Visio a couple of years ago and have decided that all TV boxes are loss leaders that are there

0:47:25to steal all of your viewing information and sell it for an enormous profit, which I don't think was

0:47:31ever really true, but is, uh, you know, Visio, the beauty of that Visio story is that basically

0:47:38everybody in the TV box market got, uh, scrutinized and they all have opt-outs. I have yet to see a

0:47:45story anywhere of somebody who's analyzed the network data on one of these boxes that has

0:47:51opted out from ad tracking or, uh, you know, uh, video tracking that they're leaking information

0:47:57to people, which is not surprising because it would be an enormous scandal if it turned out

0:48:03that they offered an opt-out and that it didn't opt you out. Is it not opted? Are you opted in

0:48:09by default? Yeah, you are. Um, I, again, I don't love the idea that some TV box manufacturer has

0:48:18data about what shows I watch at the same time. It's not exactly the crown jewels.

0:48:23Like that's like a Nielsen box. Basically your cable box may also be doing this, by the way,

0:48:27Netflix is tracking what you're watching when you're in Netflix. Every service you use is

0:48:32tracking you even on the Apple TV, right? They're tracking you within their silo, not across,

0:48:37uh, devices, but they are absolutely doing that. Uh, Apple even has a, I believe a privacy opt-out

0:48:42in TV OS, so it too, it has got some amount of data, but the LA so I think this is overblown,

0:48:49but the truth is, I think it's fair to say for a certain audience, the fact that the Apple TV is

0:48:56from Apple provides a level of comfort that a random company that they've never heard of,

0:49:02or only have heard of in passing or don't trust for other reasons can provide. And I think that's,

0:49:07I think that's fair. I would probably argue that that doesn't count for most people. It doesn't

0:49:13counterbalance the fact that you can get this one for $35 and this one's a one 179, but for some

0:49:20people it does. So even though I can be a little skeptical that I think maybe this is overstated

0:49:26on both sides, uh, it is perceived as an advantage for Apple. And, you know, I don't think anybody

0:49:35expects Apple to make a product for $35 just because Roku does right now. That's not what

0:49:39Apple does, but the difference between the Apple TV and every other model, all of which have been

0:49:46updated in the last six months and Apple TV hasn't been updated for two years. It's worth,

0:49:51we're thinking about what else could Apple do to make this product more appealing because even the

0:49:56most exciting, excited, beloved, devoted fan of the Apple TV. And I heard from all of them because

0:50:04they're convinced that I'm saying that they should, somebody, a mean man should come to their house and

0:50:08take their Apple TV away. I guess, even though I said I use it every day. Um, even they would

0:50:14probably admit that they love this product so much, perhaps Apple should be working very hard

0:50:22to improve it, to find ways to make it have unique value and find ways to make it more appealing. So

0:50:30more people buy it because again, it's a stronger product if it's actively updated and flying off

0:50:38the shelves and people want to be on the platform. It's more viable as a product that way. It's a

0:50:43better product that way. And it's been kind of drifting for two years. So what can they do then?

0:50:49Brain box. What can they do? I don't know. Give it up, call it a day, shut her down. I mean,

0:50:56that's the thing they could do. They could, they could. And I think I've gotten enough feedback

0:51:04from, if they wanted to shut down the Apple TV, they would need to make a greater effort to

0:51:10integrate some of their other ecosystem stuff into the TV app, which they haven't done, which leads

0:51:15me to believe that it won't happen. Although it's possible it could happen, right? Like, Oh, well,

0:51:19I want access to my iCloud photo library. Well, they could update the TV app to give you access

0:51:24to that. Right. And they'd be like, no, just buy Roku. It's fine. I don't think they will. I think

0:51:28that they're going to keep this around in some form just as a pricey platform object. Right.

0:51:36But so Ben and John on Dithering talked about games. And I think it's interesting. There are,

0:51:48I'm not sure it'll work because Apple and games generally has not worked in history. And when it

0:51:52works, it's accidental. But there are two ways of looking at it. And I want, I want your thoughts

0:51:59about this as somebody who cares about games. One way to look at it is, well, just make a game

0:52:04console like a super souped up Apple TV with controllers and access to games on the app store

0:52:10and court game developers to be on the app store and get their games on the app store. And, and,

0:52:19and go like, we're going to, we're really a better comparison to Xbox and PlayStation,

0:52:24which seems like a stretch to me. And the alternative is to say, we're a different kind

0:52:31of game console, just like Nintendo does different kinds of game consoles, but we are going to make a

0:52:37push in terms of gaming capability and controllers. And they've already started doing some of that,

0:52:43but it's never going to be, you know, they're going to use continue using their iOS foundation.

0:52:48And not, not make it feel truly like something that could compete with something like PlayStation

0:52:54or Xbox, but more than just a video streamer, which at least in terms of their hardware is the

0:53:01right thing to do because their hardware is way too powerful for just streaming video. So what

0:53:06else do you do with it? What, you know, is any gaming strategy for Apple TV viable? Do you think?

0:53:11No. Um, moving on. Well, so like, you know, I will say it so, so abruptly because I genuinely

0:53:19believe there isn't one. Uh, I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't understand where they

0:53:25could fit. So Apple is not going to make a PlayStation or Xbox competitor because it's more

0:53:33than just adding a controller right now. Microsoft and Sony do not want to make consoles that are as

0:53:39big as the consoles they make. Right. But if you want to make AAA top quality games,

0:53:45that's the kind of hardware that you're looking at. Right. And I can't imagine Apple building a

0:53:52larger Apple TV. I'm not saying it has to be as big as like the Xbox series S for example.

0:53:58I was going to say having a PS5, the PS5 is the size of my house.

0:54:02The PS5 is absurdly large and yes, but it's doing a lot and Apple could maybe go along the road of

0:54:10the Xbox series S, which is like, it's not giving you all of the power, but you could at least play

0:54:15all the games, et cetera. But the problem with the AAA strategy, the high end high quality games,

0:54:21it's not hardware. That's the problem here. It's Apple as a company and the app store,

0:54:26right? Just look at Apple versus Epic, right? That's the issue, right? Like that is the closest

0:54:33to a top tier game that would be on iOS and just the market forces just won't allow for it.

0:54:40And there are many other issues here, right? So just looking, I'm going to come to Nintendo in

0:54:45a minute. Let me count you there. If only to say that my understanding is that the console app

0:54:50stores take a percentage that's comparable to what Apple takes. They take a percentage. But I really

0:54:57loved a lot of the, like John Surcuse put this in a great way on some episodes of ATP, but the thing

0:55:03is there is a percentage that is taken by the console makers, but there's a bunch of other

0:55:07things going on. It's probably negotiate. It's definitely negotiable. Right. And you need to be

0:55:12on those consoles, right? You don't, they don't need to be on an Apple TV. Apple TV would be a

0:55:16hungry console that would need to really cut a deal to get some things that are considered AAA

0:55:20running on their platform. But there are deals, right? So the big games, you're getting extra

0:55:25money for making the exclusive appearance at times. The marketing, the legit marketing, right,

0:55:30is that they spend on that together. Um, like they are taking a cut, but you're getting a lot for it.

0:55:38Not just if you are a big developer, not just the right to be on the platform, right? There's a lot

0:55:44of to and throw, which is something that Apple doesn't do. And I can't imagine they would ever

0:55:49do because they have no history of doing this and they've had no history of doing this at times when

0:55:55they should have done it. Right. Like we look at Apple news plus they should be more give and take

0:56:01in that if they really wanted that to succeed, but they're just not interested in give and take,

0:56:05right. They're just interested in take, right? Like you should be lucky to be here, right? It's

0:56:11kind of a lot of the, the feeling that people get from these deals, especially with content.

0:56:18So I just can't imagine them doing this, right? Like, do you think that the first time Apple

0:56:23found out that Epic had an issue was when they did that thing that they did? No. Right? Like Epic

0:56:29was very clearly voicing what they wanted from Apple and Apple didn't want to give it. I'm not

0:56:35saying what's right or wrong. I'm just saying like, this is the, this is kind of how Apple

0:56:39treat these types of relationships. It seems right. So I can't imagine that even though these

0:56:44other, like, even though Sony and Microsoft take that cut, there's more of an arrangement between

0:56:49these businesses and it's less clear. Like just like we take this, then you get to be on the platform.

0:56:54That's that. So just staying on Sony and Microsoft for a minute, marketing is so strong, right? Like

0:57:01amongst the people that play these games, they want one of these two consoles. Apple would have

0:57:06to do so much to try and convince people that they're a player in that field. But this is not

0:57:11the field they're going for anyway. They're going for games, right? And you mentioned Nintendo,

0:57:15people mentioned Nintendo. Oh, they're just doing a Nintendo thing. Oh my God. I love you, Jason.

0:57:20You're great. This is so incredible. But Myke, Apple has decades where they have rolled out

0:57:27games featuring beloved characters like the dog cow. So this is the issue. People

0:57:35spinning rainbow cursor. Oh my God. Can you imagine a game that is the adventures of the dog cow and

0:57:42the spinning rainbow cursor in finder land? The beloved chess. Uh, so like people look at Nintendo

0:57:50and they're like, oh, Nintendo managed to do this without the big beefy hardware. Nintendo have

0:57:56a level of creativity in their games and their hardware that everybody else wishes they could.

0:58:01Like for example, right? Everyone's like, oh my God, you cannot buy a PlayStation right now. They

0:58:06must be doing so well. Nintendo in the same quarter sold, I think it was nearly twice the amount

0:58:11of switches. Right. And I mean, yes, they have supply, but the switch is like three or four years

0:58:17old at this point. Like it's a different beast. Well, I mentioned Nintendo only to say it's

0:58:23possible. I'm just, I'm just trying to make this argument. I'm trying to parse this out.

0:58:27It's possible that you could make a game focused device that is not

0:58:35triple a console like Sony and Microsoft. Yes. That would have some appeal. I think the problem,

0:58:42and I mentioned the switch just because Nintendo has always gone its own way. The difference is

0:58:46Nintendo has a track record and audience and intellectual property that put it over the edge.

0:58:51Whereas what Apple would bring is, you know, that game, that puzzle game you like on your iPad,

0:58:57you know, that thing where you touch the color gems on your iPhone. Well, now it can be on your TV,

0:59:02which is not a great, a great match. And I don't, you know, short of Apple, you know, buying

0:59:09huge amounts of intellectual property and even then, right? Like it's not,

0:59:14I think it's more likely for Apple to be successful trying to do something that is not a

0:59:19triple a console than Apple trying to be a triple a console, if that makes any sense. I'm not sure

0:59:24either of them are great, but I could see, I could see it a little bit better given that every iOS

0:59:31device works with controllers. Now I could see them making a push for more content that uses

0:59:42and is best on controllers. I'm not sure it would work, but I could see it. I just, I can't see it

0:59:48being a PlayStation, right? That I can't see. In fact, you could argue with the AR/VR stuff that

0:59:56if they want to go down this path, they really do need to embrace gaming because gaming is an

1:00:02application for all of this stuff and Apple's not very good at it. So, yes, I agree with that.

1:00:08I wanted to address like the game, because I see people say casual gaming, right? Like,

1:00:14why doesn't Apple make the Apple TV great for casual gamers? But what's casual about turning

1:00:19on your TV? Exactly. Right? That's the challenge. If what you're saying is we're going to take the

1:00:24casual games for casual gamers and put them on the Apple TV, you have completely divorced the idea of

1:00:32casual gaming because it is not casual to sit down in front. Casual gaming works because these are

1:00:39games that you play when you are waiting for something or you're doing something else or

1:00:43you're trying to pass time. These are the games you play on your iPhone, right? They work on your

1:00:48iPhone because they are built around this idea of killing time. Sitting down at games, at a television

1:00:56to play a game, it is not casual gaming anymore. You've made it gaming. You've removed the casual

1:01:02from it. Right. And again, if you were Nintendo and had Mario, sorry, John Mario, and all of that

1:01:13stuff, right? You had Mario and you had Kirby and you had all those characters and all those titles

1:01:20that you've done for years and years. Well, then you could maybe release an Apple TV-like product

1:01:27and a better controller, by the way, and you might have something,

1:01:35but Apple doesn't have any of that. You do need something to be there, I feel like. Something that

1:01:46is going to draw people there other than that it's Apple. And that's the challenge here, right? We've

1:01:52seen the game story for the last few years on the Apple TV. And the fact is, I want to say this too,

1:01:57can the Apple TV be a decent game platform? Yes, it can. And a new one could be even better at it.

1:02:04And they all connect to controllers. And if you've played a game that works well with a controller,

1:02:10like Sayonara Wild Hearts on the Apple TV, it's really good. I also use it for party games for the

1:02:17Jackbox Party Pack. All of that is true. The challenge is how do you and Apple Arcade games

1:02:22play on the Apple TV? And yet it's not there on the software side and I'm not sure how it gets

1:02:28there. No, it's like, so the thing about the Apple TV, the Apple TV can be a thing that also has games,

1:02:35which is great, rather than a thing you buy because it has games. And I can't imagine it ever

1:02:42being more than that for all of the reasons. So Terrence in the chat room says, I'd argue Apple

1:02:48TV doesn't need a distinct strategy. It just needs to support Apple Arcade and they need to put a lot

1:02:52more resources behind it. I do think that is a distinct, well, okay. I agree with Terrence,

1:02:58indistinct strategy seems to be Apple's current strategy for Apple TV. And maybe it's the right

1:03:01one, which is to go back to a joke that I made about the original Apple Watch presentation.

1:03:07What doesn't it do? Right? Like what is the Apple TV for? It's for all those things I listed earlier

1:03:12and it's for games and Apple Arcade. And yes, they could pour a lot more money into Apple Arcade

1:03:18and say the Apple TV box is an arcade box and we're building, we're putting a lot of money into

1:03:24making really good controller based games that you're going to want to plop down in front of your

1:03:27TV with an Apple TV and play. And they're family friendly and your kids are going to love them and

1:03:32you're going to love them as a grownup. And it's not quite the same as buying a console and it'll

1:03:36also be your streamer box, et cetera, et cetera, in a way that like, other than harder core gamers,

1:03:42people are not like, right. The last generation of consoles, game consoles, they're like,

1:03:46it's also your TV box. And everybody was like, no, it's not stop, just stop. And you can watch

1:03:52streaming video on those boxes, but unless you're a gamer, you're not like,

1:03:56all right, honey, let's turn on the PlayStation to watch Netflix. Like I don't think.

1:04:00- That exact strategy of it's a TV box killed the Xbox.

1:04:04- Yeah, exactly. Oh, I had an Xbox one and yeah, it's ridiculous. HDMI in,

1:04:09HDMI out. It's like, forget about it. So I think Terrence's point is good in the sense that

1:04:15indistinct, it does these kinds of games on Apple arcade and we can put money into Apple arcade to

1:04:19try and make the TV titles for Apple arcade better. And then we could also do a bunch of

1:04:24other stuff, including stuff we haven't talked about yet, other ways that they could go and,

1:04:29and just sort of be like what, you know, Apple TV, it's just better and does a bunch of stuff.

1:04:35And if any of these things hit you, you'll buy it. And, and that might be something I, I still

1:04:42think it needs to cost less, or at least there needs to be a version of it that costs a lot less,

1:04:48not because Apple needs to be the low price leader. It never does, but because the prices

1:04:52of the other computing boxes are so low that it needs to come down. Now the 4k Dolby vision,

1:04:58Dolby Atmos version of Roku costs 99, but the 4k HDR version costs 35. So is there, I don't know,

1:05:08I don't want to set the Apple price for this, but one 79 is not it. So give it to me for one

1:05:13Oh nine or one 19 or, or, or make a version that's $99. You know, it would be very much like Tim

1:05:20Cook's Apple for the current Apple TV 4k to get cut to 99. And then for them to make a new fancy

1:05:25one that's one 79. And that might be okay. Um, but the, are we done with games? Cause there's the

1:05:32other things that I said, all I need to say about games. That won't work basically. Um,

1:05:37home home kit and, and smart home is another area that they could beef up if they wanted to

1:05:42their, their smart home strategy is broken. They brought in somebody new a couple of years ago. We

1:05:47haven't really seen a lot there, although a home pod mini has the thread radio in it. And like,

1:05:52there's, there's signs they're working on a chop, the connected home, uh, uh, thing with everybody.

1:05:59The idea here is it's the day taunt in smart home so that you should going forward at some point

1:06:04here, just be able to buy smart home stuff. And it works with everything. It works with Google.

1:06:07And Apple and Alexa and all those things. It just, it works and it's fine. And it may be that they're

1:06:13kind of on hold until that all gets resolved. But I do think smart home stuff could be a way for the

1:06:21Apple TV to differentiate. Um, if Apple made a wifi router, they could use it as a, as a, a mesh

1:06:27network hub. That would be nice. Um, the, and you know, you talked to Federico about this sometimes

1:06:34on connected home. The home app has automations that are essentially shortcuts, but it's a very,

1:06:39and the shortcuts run on the home kit hub. So they don't run on, on a, like a computer or an iPad or

1:06:44an iPhone. They run on the home kit server, which can be an iPad, but you see my point and they're

1:06:49very limited. There's a set of things that you can automate there. Well, Apple could beef that up.

1:06:54Apple could say on this Apple TV it's, it's basically a whole computer in there and there's

1:06:59lots of other stuff it can do now. And look, you won't, you won't believe what you can automate in

1:07:03your home. Um, they presumably would put like a thread radio in there. Cause one of the things

1:07:08that would be really nice is I could stop buying little plastic boxes that I have to plug into

1:07:12ethernet and the wall in order to turn on lights in my house. Um, but like all these different

1:07:18smart home, uh, old standards all connect via different things. It could be something more like

1:07:24something more like home bridge where it it's able to suck in a bunch of different things. Like

1:07:29they could do work to say, this is a great home product at a level that they haven't yet. And

1:07:36that might be again, is that the only reason you'd buy one? No, but it would be another one on the

1:07:41pile. And if we're going with the indirect or unfocused strategy here, then that would be

1:07:46something you could do. And then the other thing I'll just throw out there is my hobby horse. I've

1:07:50been beat. I've been beating this drum for years now, but take your home pod tech, take your Apple

1:07:57TV tech and take your smart home tech and make a soundbar so that people can plop an Apple branded.

1:08:04Great sounding thing in front of their TV or above their TV or wherever you put your soundbar

1:08:10and attach it to the TV. And it does video, it does Apple music. It sounds great. It does home

1:08:16theater surround sound when you're doing that. And it's also your home pod hub. And it's like,

1:08:21I don't know again. Yeah, they're competing with Sonos and do they really want to make it, but

1:08:24like they already make literally all the parts of it with the home pod and the Apple TV. And I would

1:08:30wager Myke, that you would not have the problems you're having with your home pods and your Apple

1:08:34TV. If they were literally one box where they were all just connected. So I don't know again,

1:08:43is that the solution? Probably not, but I feel like with Apple TV, if it's going to exist,

1:08:49it needs to be more affordable and we need to Apple needs to, cause we can't do it really.

1:08:53Apple needs to add some more new things on the pile because it took away some of its specialness

1:08:59in the drive to spread Apple's entertainment platforms across connected devices. And honestly,

1:09:07the airplay thing doesn't get enough. Airplay is such a great feature of owning an Apple product

1:09:12and to have it be increasingly common on other devices is a big win for Mac users and iPad users

1:09:20and iPhone users, but it comes at the cost of the unique value of the Apple TV. Somebody

1:09:25during the Twitter back and forth last week said they're a teacher at a school and they bought

1:09:30Apple TVs for every projector so that they can project from their screen. And that's great,

1:09:35but today I would bet you that their IT manager would buy $35 Roku's instead because they do the

1:09:41same thing and they wouldn't buy the $179 Apple TVs or whatever the education price is. So again,

1:09:48we need to make a pile of features and low price. And you know, that's how Apple keeps the Apple TV

1:09:54valuable and viable and make people want to buy it is they need to like with fitness plus,

1:10:00they need to start integrating more things into it to give people a reason to buy it.

1:10:04Because two of the biggest reasons have walked out the door in the last year.

1:10:08It's kind of funny really. Cause like thinking about the iPad line, like the iPad air got a

1:10:13bunch of features that the iPad pro had. And we're just naturally assuming because of the way that

1:10:17Apple's done things in the past that the next iPad pro is going to get a bunch of things that the

1:10:21iPad air doesn't have to like make it, make a reason for you to want to keep continuing buying

1:10:26the more expensive product. And there's a kind of a similarity here, right? Where Apple took a bunch

1:10:32of things that were exclusive to the Apple TV and made them more widely available. So now to get

1:10:37people to want to buy the next Apple TV, if there ever is one, they need to do this exact thing,

1:10:42right? Like there has to be some kind of USP to this product. You need differentiation between

1:10:48you, even though the $35 Roku is not available in every country, but it is in the US Apple cares the

1:10:54most about the US. I know they're looking at that. You need to have differentiation, even if it's not

1:10:59your product, you need to have enough differentiation between you and the $35 product to make the

1:11:04difference in price worth it. And the Apple logo is part of it. And Apple's privacy promise is part

1:11:09of it. Like all of those ad, but you need to make the case to enough people to make that product

1:11:16successful. And as the product has sat there unchanged, it keeps getting less differentiated.

1:11:22Right. And so, so you're right. We expect it from the iPad pro. I think we need to expect it from

1:11:27the Apple TV that they're going to find some ways to differentiate it because otherwise I don't

1:11:32really know why it's around. Um, and, and putting a new processor in it. Cause imagine if it doesn't

1:11:37do anything new and then they put a new processor in it from the latest generation sort of like,

1:11:42okay, uh, what does that get me? Right? Like what is it's it's like the storage thing. It's like,

1:11:50well, we've upped the processor. Well, great. I can buy a larger storage Apple TV too,

1:11:53but that's pointless. I don't know. This episode is brought to you by express VPN.

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1:14:34A thanks to express VPN for their support this show at relay FM. It's time for some

1:14:39hashtag ask upgrade questions. Stitch wants to know, do you use bookmarks in Safari? If so, what for?

1:14:47Uh, I use bookmarks to store. I just recently deleted a lot of bookmarks cause I had them there

1:14:53for decades. Um, I use them for things that I think I need to have available cause I'm probably

1:15:00going to need to come back there eventually. There aren't that many, but it just happens

1:15:03occasionally. Also recipes. If I make something off of a random recipe website, I will add that

1:15:10as a bookmark so I can get back there and make it again. Um, and otherwise I basically just use the

1:15:18uh, favorites bar. So I, that's really how I use bookmarks is I use the favorites bar and I have

1:15:25all of my content management stuff, uh, six colors, the incomparable relay IDG is all in there. Um,

1:15:34I have a quick jumps to my sites and my weather page and uh, some COVID-19 data is in there and

1:15:43home bridge is in there. So that's basically how I use bookmarks other than like to store recipes or

1:15:51other things. Like there was a get hub, something that I was like a project that I wanted to keep my

1:15:55eye on and I added that, but it's very rare that I use bookmarks anymore for anything other than

1:15:59sort of like save it for later or it's the stuff that's in my uh, in my toolbar. I don't use

1:16:07bookmarks. I have some bookmarks in Safari and I don't know how they got there. They're very old.

1:16:14What I do use though is bookmarklets. So the CMS that we have for relay that we build,

1:16:22um, it has the ability to, uh, if I go to a webpage, I can hit a bookmarklet and it will

1:16:28save it to the CMS. Um, yeah, I have, I have all those in there and those are great. I've got one

1:16:32that, um, will kick out video into a picture and picture on the Mac. Well actually Mac or iPad.

1:16:38Um, that's really nice. Um, yeah, those are, those are, I should have mentioned that the

1:16:44bookmarklets are very helpful too for that reason. So that's, that's what I use them for.

1:16:49And the other thing that I use them for, um, although I don't use this as much as I used to

1:16:55is I have all of my Google docs that I use for podcasts, uh, planning Google sheets or the

1:17:03upgrade doc or the liftoff doc. And I used to use launch bar, which would index, uh, Safari

1:17:11bookmarks. So I could launch the upgrade notes from launch bar, but I changed at some point

1:17:18because those are all Google docs. I have, um, you know, Google drive, uh, and it's just web links to

1:17:26those things too. But now I have, I think I have, I have launch bar scanning Google drive for the

1:17:31names of all my Google docs and I get it that way, but for a while I was using it and I may switch

1:17:36back. But that idea is that I'm not just launching apps using launch bar. I'm also launching web

1:17:41pages like Google docs. So I use it for that. And I do, I think I do have my bookmarks indexed by

1:17:49uh, by launch bar as well. So if something gets added in there, like a recipe or a doc that I'm

1:17:55working on, I can get it through launch bar as well. And that's convenient rather than going to

1:17:58the menu or something. I very rarely do that or auto or auto-complete right. If you in the URL

1:18:03bar, you start typing the thing that you want and because it's in bookmarks, it just shows up there.

1:18:08But I very rarely I'm like, now I'm at the point in my day where I will go to my bookmarks. I don't

1:18:13do that. Like if I want to open the upgrade show notes, I just open a new tab and type in UPG and

1:18:18it's like, Hey, and I just press enter and then that's it. Right. Like, so I do, I do space command

1:18:23space UPG for a launch bar and hit return. It opens it up that way too. We keep getting lots of,

1:18:30um, VR and AR ask upgrade questions. Keep sending them in. This one came from Seth. Uh, why is VR

1:18:37and AR considered only for mobile during the discussions that you're having in an M1 world

1:18:41where PC tablet phones are the same, like PC tablet and phone are the same. $3,000 endless

1:18:47XDR display for my M1 MacBook sounds like an amazing idea. Why limit ideas and theories to

1:18:53only what the phone can do? I think that's a great question. I do think that if VR and AR

1:19:00ultimately becomes ever present and seamless, the idea that you won't need a big screen because you

1:19:10can have a virtual screen anywhere you go will definitely become a thing that people will do

1:19:16that you don't, you know, need a physical screen anymore because you can just make a virtual screen

1:19:21that's as big as you want it to be and move it around with you and whatever. I think that's true.

1:19:25However, they're all the physical issues, right? Which is, is it going to, is it going to be good

1:19:30enough? If it's good enough, is it going to be heavy or hot or uncomfortable in the beginning?

1:19:35It will be in the long run. Maybe not. Maybe it'll be more like just wearing a pair of glasses and

1:19:40you put on your glasses and you're, you've got a computer screen. But, but I worry about the

1:19:45ergonomics of it, that if you're working all day with a thing clamped onto your face, it's not

1:19:50going to be good. So what is the ergonomic and when, and when does the ergonomic issue

1:19:55go away because the technology has advanced? And I think that's going to be a while, but I do think,

1:20:00I do think that the end goal is seamless AR and VR and seamless AR where you can put a screen up

1:20:09in front of somebody is quite possible. And at that point we won't need displays anymore,

1:20:15but it feels like that's a long way off. So I think like the thing that Seth is talking about

1:20:21here is this mixed reality headset because they say a $3,000. Right. So it's $3,000 at that price

1:20:27point. And like, this is a great idea if it, if you discount the comfort of it, right? Because

1:20:35I'll tell you, right? Like I said, someone, I have an Oculus Quest. I can't have it on for three,

1:20:39four hours at a time. I watched a 3D, I watched the doctor who 50th anniversary special in 3D

1:20:45on my Oculus Quest two. It took me four sessions to do it. Yeah. Cause it was just not very

1:20:53comfortable and it's better now cause I've got the new, uh, I've got the, the upgraded, uh, strap

1:20:59that actually is comfortable even, even so I, you know, I play 11 table tennis for 45 minutes and

1:21:06I'm like, I'm done for awhile. And my face is all flushed. I'm really, really, really, really,

1:21:11really, really, really bad at table tennis is what I've learned. Okay. You should add me as a friend

1:21:15and then I'll just beat you. Well, no, this is why I won't do that because I'm really, really,

1:21:19really, really, really, really bad. It's a fun game. I'm just terrible at it. So, so that's,

1:21:25I mean, that's my answer to Seth is that in the long run. Yeah, sure. Like I love the idea that

1:21:30in the long run, like let's, let's put it all out there with hand tracking, precise hand and finger

1:21:35tracking. You should be able to put on this magical futuristic set of AR glasses that don't

1:21:42squeeze your face and make you miserable and sit anywhere and put your hands out and type into the

1:21:48air and have it all work and mouse with your finger and do all whatever you want, whatever

1:21:53works for you and have it all be virtual. That, that absolutely is a thing that could happen.

1:21:59And I think the challenge is going to be, uh, ergonomics and that's not just the ergonomics

1:22:03of the thing that you clamp on your face, but it's also the ergonomics of things like, what do I do

1:22:09for eight hours? Am I standing? Am I sitting? Am I typing in the air or am I typing on a solid

1:22:14surface? Uh, is a keyboard better ergonomically because of the feedback it gives you or is it

1:22:21pointless and you don't need it anymore? And some of that stuff is unknown, honestly. Um,

1:22:26and my guess is it's complicated and different bodies are going to react differently, but like,

1:22:30what are the best practices for a completely virtual environment beyond the thing clamped

1:22:35to your face? It's just going to take a while, but maybe someday. Jay asks, in terms of cloud storage,

1:22:42Dropbox or iCloud? Dropbox for me, I use iCloud more than I used to, but I, uh, I pay for

1:22:50Dropbox and I use it all the time. I use a bunch of Dropbox features that iCloud doesn't support.

1:22:55So if iCloud supported every feature that Dropbox that I use in Dropbox, I would consider using

1:23:02iCloud instead because I found iCloud to be fairly reliable, although less reliable than Dropbox,

1:23:08but fairly reliable. It's way better than it used to be, but I use shared folders and file requests

1:23:16and, you know, I, I project, yeah, versioning and undelete and rewind and all sorts of these

1:23:24features that iCloud doesn't have any of that. And I don't think it's ever going to have most of that

1:23:28because those are like pro features and I can't really imagine Apple, uh, implementing all of

1:23:35them, but if it were to do so, I would consider it. But for my use Dropbox, for sure. Yeah. And

1:23:40I'm the same, you know, even like that, that I think they call it, I don't think it's called

1:23:48smart sync. Is that the one where like it keeps all of your stuff and you just download what you

1:23:52need? Yeah. I was really unsure about that feature, but I use it now, um, on my MacBook Pro and I love

1:23:59it because the great thing is I have a terabyte of stuff in my Dropbox. So I can't, I can't, you know,

1:24:07it's, it's very expensive for me to get computers that I can actually have all of my files on in

1:24:12that way. Right. Um, so I really liked that. Um, that's it. I, I, I, I liked that feature a lot

1:24:19and, and it's smart. It does a good job, but this, you know, this thing that you're saying about like

1:24:22Dropbox is rock solid for me. Right. And so the idea of me ever thinking about moving to iCloud

1:24:29for file storage is just unfathomable. Right. If Dropbox is around, I'm just going to use Dropbox

1:24:34because I don't have issues with Dropbox and any issues I do have, you know, like if I was to have

1:24:39some kind of file issue, something got deleted when I didn't need it to, they have a very usable

1:24:44system for going in and getting that stuff out. You try and recover a file from iCloud that you've

1:24:51accidentally deleted, right. Or like that there's a, somebody's made an edit on it. It's, it's barely,

1:24:56it's like barely, barely possible. I do use iCloud a lot. Like if an app has iCloud syncing

1:25:04for its data, I'll use that. But when it comes to like where my files are stored, I use Dropbox.

1:25:10Like for example, numbers and pages, I use iCloud. Great. Like it's all there. And I, I kind of

1:25:16consider that as like the apps syncing system, but when it comes to like, where do I save my PDFs,

1:25:23I save them in Dropbox. Yes. Yeah. All my stories are in a stories folder on Dropbox. That's linked

1:25:30to the editor that I use on iOS. And so it syncs. And could I do that with iCloud? Maybe. And I might

1:25:38at some point, but again, I set it up with Dropbox and it works great. And when I've tried to do that

1:25:43with iCloud, I do end up in those situations sometimes where iCloud just doesn't see the

1:25:47changes. It's very frustrating. And that's why I said it's more reliable. Dropbox has those issues

1:25:53occasionally. iCloud has them more than occasionally, even now. It's much better than it

1:25:58used to be, but it's just not there. So I don't, I'm not going to drag either of these cause they

1:26:03do both have their uses, but I think honestly, I would say, I think we're very close to the

1:26:08expected result here. I think iCloud, you know, they had these issues with folder sharing and like

1:26:14it was there and they took it away in the betas and all that, but like folder sharing among people

1:26:17in iCloud, that's a feature that Apple should add. But a lot of the stuff we use Dropbox for,

1:26:22I'm not sure I would advocate that. I mean, if they could reconceive time machine to be a front

1:26:28end to iCloud file versioning so that you could, that would be, that would be a feature that would

1:26:34be nice and good because versioning is there on IO or on a, on MacOS in iCloud, but it's,

1:26:42it's weird. And I'm not sure it's iCloud based as well as it's machine-based. So like I could

1:26:48see them doing versioning at a consumer level and I can see them do doing folder sharing, but

1:26:53some of the stuff we use Dropbox for, they're never going to do that. So that's, and that's fine,

1:26:58right? Because Dropbox is a professional tool for lots of stuff that iCloud never needs to be.

1:27:05And so I think if Apple, Apple doesn't have to be Dropbox to make iCloud what it should be,

1:27:11but I don't think iCloud is what it should be yet.

1:27:16Uh, and finally today from Teague who asks, other than CoreRecorder,

1:27:20have you come across any apps that do not work on M1 Macs?

1:27:23I haven't. CoreRecorder was the first one and I didn't even know. I didn't know until that article

1:27:31came out cause I hadn't tried to install it because I hadn't done any recordings on my Mac Pro.

1:27:35So I haven't had anything else. It's the first one. I mean, that's, it's why it was

1:27:40honestly such a surprise for me because I thought everything just worked.

1:27:45Yeah. I, um, I think Photoshop works on it, but I'm using the Photoshop beta that's native on

1:27:50Apple Silicon. But other than that, I have not run into anything. Cause we had the great Catalina

1:27:5732 bit app death. Right. And I haven't tried to run, you know, obviously like VMware or something

1:28:04like that running windows emulation would have a problem. Right. But I'm not, I haven't tried any

1:28:08of that. And those apps that I really relied on other than CoreRecorder are mostly the apps that

1:28:14I, that I already replaced because of Catalina and the 32 bit apocalypse. So, um, no, when I

1:28:20use my MacBook air, it's just, it's just great. It just works. It's all those things, right? It's

1:28:25just, it's fine. It has been the least dramatic switch over. Um, which is why I think that the

1:28:33paying the price in the summer of 19 with Catalina was smart on Apple's part because they got to

1:28:40clear the decks and make the chip transition, not the painful transition. I have no doubt that there

1:28:47are tools and services that people use that don't work, but that I think now on the niche ends,

1:28:52listen to David, who is our, our sort of music professor in the, in the discord said, there are

1:28:58a lot of, uh, audio and music apps that don't work. Although I will say there are also a lot of

1:29:02audio apps that claim they don't work, but they actually do work like isotope for the longest time

1:29:08was like, you can't even run it on, on a big Sur, let alone on Apple Silicon. And it's like, well,

1:29:13it runs on big Sur just fine. And it runs an Apple Silicon just fine, but there's a lot of like,

1:29:18there's a lot of qualification stuff. And then there's the stuff that really doesn't work. And

1:29:21there were a lot of like audio plugins that ran on Intel. And when you tried to run an

1:29:25Intel audio plugin in an app that was running on Apple Silicon, you had these very weird conflicts

1:29:30and there's stuff like that. That's been kind of broken. So if you're in a particular niche, you

1:29:33may have to face that. But, um, even there, I found with a lot of these professional tools,

1:29:39what they are is they're afraid to claim compatibility because of the support issues.

1:29:43And sometimes it's just not true. Sometimes it's just like, well, what I had somebody say,

1:29:48well, I can't get an Apple Silicon Mac, or I can't upgrade to big Sur because isotope doesn't work in

1:29:53it. And I said, well, I've been using isotope with big Sur for months now on and now on Apple Silicon

1:29:57and it works fine. They're like, but the webpage says it doesn't work. I'm like, well, I don't know

1:30:00what to tell you about their webpage. I just tried it and it worked. So it's okay with me.

1:30:05I think it's one of the things that's made the M1 Mac so fantastic, at least for me is I don't

1:30:11really think about the fact that it's doing something different. I just know that everything

1:30:16it does is amazing. So it's like, it just feels so good to use. Like I, I, I'm really struggling

1:30:24to kind of get my thoughts out about why I love my Mac Pro so much, but it just, everything just

1:30:34feels nice to use in a way that I feel like I hadn't experienced on the Mac in a while. Like I,

1:30:40I can't, I don't really know why this is the case, but when I sit down at my iMac, it doesn't feel

1:30:46like the same experience as when I sit down with my MacBook Pro. And I'm, and I'm, I'm not completely

1:30:52gotten around to understanding why that is yet, except to say that the M1 Macs are really very

1:31:00special and cool. Yeah, they, they are. It's, it's a joy when I was traveling, I took it with me.

1:31:07And when we went to our little vacation house for the weekend and it was great. It's just, yeah,

1:31:16it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to use. It's fast, even editing podcasts and de-noising things

1:31:21running in Rosetta 2. And it's like, it's, it's great. Love it.

1:31:26If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, you can tweet with the

1:31:31hashtag #askupgrade or use question mark ask upgrade in the Relay FM members discord,

1:31:37which you can get access to. If you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus.com

1:31:42where you will get longer ad free episodes of upgrade every single week on today's upgrade.

1:31:47Plus we talk about power, but not that kind electricity and planning for power outages and

1:31:57solar panels and electric cars and things like that. Because, because dear listener,

1:32:01we've reached the end. Now, my electricity provider sent me a letter in the mail last week

1:32:07that said, dear Jason during upgrade, we're going to turn off your power probably. Yeah. And I,

1:32:12I had to find ways of dealing with that. And now that we've reached the end, I'd be happy to say,

1:32:16ha ha. We escaped. We did it. They can shut it off right now and it won't matter.

1:32:23But if you'd like to hear a conversation we had about that and all the weird and wonderful ways

1:32:27that that went go to getupgradeplus.com to sign up $5 a month, $50 a year, you get loads of great

1:32:34stuff and you help support us and the show. I would also like to thank ExpressVPN, HelloFresh

1:32:40and Spokes for their support of this episode. If you'd like to find Jason online, you can go to

1:32:44sixcolors.com where you can find lots of wonderful articles from Jason, the incomparable.com for lots

1:32:50of wonderful podcasts and here at Relay FM as well. Don't forget to go subscribe to Liftoff

1:32:55at relay.fm/Liftoff to get their very special episode on, uh, later on this week with Ron Moore,

1:33:02the creator of For All Mankind. I'm so excited to listen to that. If you'd like to find Jason

1:33:08on Twitter as well, he's @JSNEL, J S N E double L. I am @imike, I M Y K E. If you'd like to find links

1:33:14and information about this episode, it should be on your podcast app of choice, but if they're not,

1:33:18go to relay.fm/upgrade/339. And we'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

1:33:27Goodbye, Michael Hurley.