335: Repudiation of a Decade


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 335, and today's show is brought to you by Hover and Devanthink.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hello, Myke Hurley.

00:00:23   How are you today?

00:00:24   I'm doing okay, how are you?

00:00:26   I'm very well, my friend.

00:00:27   It's a holiday here in America, you know, it's a holiday.

00:00:31   But my boss doesn't give me those holidays often.

00:00:34   Neither does yours because we got to do Upgrade.

00:00:37   We have to, why wouldn't we?

00:00:39   Yeah.

00:00:40   I have a #Snartalk question for you that comes from Stitch, who says,

00:00:45   "You often mention, Jason, that Upgrade signifies the start of your week.

00:00:49   Do you have anything specific to signify the end of your week?"

00:00:53   Oh, man, I used to, and I don't anymore. That's my answer.

00:00:58   The, uh, I used to end my week Friday afternoon doing a podcast called TV Talk Machine

00:01:07   with my friend Tim Goodman, who was the chief TV critic at The Hollywood Reporter.

00:01:12   However, Tim has retired as a TV critic, which makes it impossible to do a show

00:01:18   talking about the shows Tim has seen because he's like not watching TV anymore.

00:01:26   And so we had to park that show and it's sad because that was a fun show to do.

00:01:29   And that was my Friday afternoon.

00:01:31   The Upgrade and TV Talk Machine were my bookends of my week, but now I don't.

00:01:34   Now it's just Friday afternoon.

00:01:36   And like last Friday afternoon, I wrote a big article and I did a bunch of other stuff.

00:01:40   And I shipped out a bunch of things that had been sitting in my office for months.

00:01:45   I shipped them all out and took them to the post office and all of that.

00:01:48   And it got to be about three or four in the afternoon.

00:01:50   And I had that moment where I thought, "Yeah, I'm done.

00:01:54   Done for the week. I'm calling it."

00:01:57   But it was not as ceremonious as it used to be.

00:02:02   There isn't something on the calendar anymore that signifies.

00:02:05   Exactly. That's the important thing is you got to have that.

00:02:07   Well, the TV Talk Machine also, we would have it on the calendar at like one o'clock.

00:02:10   But really one o'clock on Friday was when I would email Tim and say, "When do you want to do it?"

00:02:18   And sometimes we would do it at one.

00:02:19   Sometimes it'd be three.

00:02:20   Sometimes it'd be four.

00:02:21   Sometimes it would be perfectly timed.

00:02:24   Well, I found the email more reliable to reach him than texting.

00:02:28   Look, I love Tim, but he is not a super technical person.

00:02:34   He's got his own way of using technology.

00:02:37   When he was a TV critic, at least, email was the best way to reach him

00:02:40   because he was always on his laptop writing his articles and stuff.

00:02:44   And I also used one of these web services, Cast, to record our podcast

00:02:50   because I could not rely on him, I felt, to actually record his audio

00:02:56   and send it to me in some way.

00:02:58   So I was like, "Let's not even bother.

00:02:59   We're just going to use the website to do it."

00:03:02   And you've worked with a bunch of people.

00:03:05   You've collaborated with a bunch of people.

00:03:06   You come to know their particular quirks.

00:03:09   And then you fit into that particular quirk.

00:03:14   So yes, we would get to Friday afternoon and it'd be like, "What do you think?

00:03:18   One?"

00:03:18   And he'd be like, "How about two?"

00:03:20   Or, "How about three?"

00:03:21   Or whatever.

00:03:22   And sometimes it would be like four or five, and it would be much later in the

00:03:25   afternoon, but I knew that once we had recorded and I had posted TVTM that the

00:03:32   weekend was here.

00:03:34   That was a good feeling.

00:03:36   If you would like to send in a question to help us open an episode of Upgrade, just

00:03:40   send out a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk or use question mark #snowtalk in the

00:03:44   Relay FM members Discord.

00:03:46   Please send in any of those.

00:03:48   It would be wonderful.

00:03:49   I have some follow-up for you, Jason.

00:03:50   A couple of things.

00:03:51   Apple has extended the free trial of Apple TV+ until July 2021.

00:03:58   So this is the original free trial.

00:04:01   It's continuing to be extended.

00:04:03   So now at this point, it's going all the way up until July.

00:04:10   Interesting, right?

00:04:11   Well, I guess they got a...

00:04:15   I'm fascinated by the continued extensions here.

00:04:17   Like, "Well, no, no, we need to do it a little bit more."

00:04:20   But we've talked about it in Upstream a lot.

00:04:23   The COVID...we are now entering, I feel like, the period where a lot of TV is...that

00:04:31   was made pre-COVID is out and the stuff that's being made during COVID is only

00:04:37   starting to ramp up, and so all their schedules got thrown out of whack.

00:04:42   And we all know that they wanted to have everything, a really strong fall in order

00:04:47   to get people to convert to paid, and then their stuff got delayed.

00:04:52   And so here we are where they want to extend, they're going to do this again.

00:04:56   Right?

00:04:57   They're going to give people more free stuff and then say, "No, no, now.

00:05:00   Really now."

00:05:01   And it helps them build up a catalog too.

00:05:03   I think one of the things about having Apple TV+ have been out for a while is

00:05:08   you start to build up that catalog.

00:05:09   You start to have...they're going to have two seasons of "For All Mankind" and

00:05:16   "The Morning Show," and they have two seasons of "Dickinson."

00:05:20   And then you can say, "Well, look, here's the value is not only do you get the new

00:05:24   stuff that's just rolling out, but you get all these movies that we did, and you get

00:05:27   these TV shows that we did," and that makes it...they're spending this time not

00:05:31   only just giving this away for free, but they're also building up a catalog to make

00:05:34   it a more interesting service.

00:05:36   And that's important because there's still not a lot of breakthrough, I think,

00:05:41   with stuff that we know because it's on Apple TV+, but that the general public

00:05:46   doesn't know exists.

00:05:47   And I say this because I was watching "Jeopardy" last week.

00:05:52   "Jeopardy," Myke, is a game show.

00:05:54   - I know what "Jeopardy" is.

00:05:55   - Do you have a different word for that?

00:05:57   Is it a quiz show?

00:05:59   Is it...you call talk shows "chat shows," so I don't know what you call game shows.

00:06:03   Are they game shows?

00:06:04   - They're game shows, unless they're quiz shows, then they're quiz shows.

00:06:06   I would say that it's more of a quiz show than a game show.

00:06:09   - It is a quiz show.

00:06:10   Anyway, they had a category that was television.

00:06:15   Television titles, I think, is what it was.

00:06:18   And it was Jason Sudeikis stars as a football coach who goes to England to

00:06:24   coach a soccer team.

00:06:26   And you cut, as you do in "Jeopardy," to the three contestants,

00:06:30   and they're all staring into space.

00:06:33   Nobody knew it was Ted Lasso.

00:06:38   And I thought, "There you go.

00:06:41   These people don't know anything about Apple TV+."

00:06:44   And right there, I was like, "That is Apple's challenge, is Apple's got to get

00:06:49   above the noise," because I feel like Ted Lasso is one of the shows that's got great

00:06:54   word of mouth.

00:06:54   Everybody's talking about it.

00:06:56   And yet those three "Jeopardy" contestants, at least, never heard of it.

00:06:59   No idea.

00:07:00   - I feel like that Ted Lasso is maybe the only show that's really broken out.

00:07:05   But yes, it's still not enough yet.

00:07:09   Ted Lasso season two is officially in production now as well.

00:07:12   This is another announcement that Apple...

00:07:14   - It is.

00:07:15   Hooray.

00:07:16   That's great to hear that they've done that.

00:07:19   And I should say that I think they recorded that "Jeopardy" episode.

00:07:22   It's the first batch after Alex Trebek died, so it's probably November that they

00:07:27   recorded those.

00:07:28   So I feel like the Ted Lasso conversation continues to build and spread.

00:07:34   So, you know.

00:07:36   But again, adding to the catalog and doing a second season, they'll do second season

00:07:39   promotion when it comes out and tell everybody to go back and binge the first

00:07:43   season, which is what the new promo for "For All Mankind" season two came out.

00:07:47   And at the end of it, it doesn't just say February.

00:07:50   It says, "Binge the first season now."

00:07:53   I'm like, "Oh, yeah, you should...

00:07:55   Yeah, that's the right way to promote a season two of a show on Apple TV Plus

00:08:00   because maybe you've never even heard of it."

00:08:02   - All right.

00:08:02   We have a bunch of reports to talk about today that have come from various sites.

00:08:08   And the first one comes from the information with a secondary report from

00:08:13   Bloomberg about Apple apparently planning on adding a paid podcast subscription

00:08:20   service to its current roster of services.

00:08:23   The thinking behind this is that the space is heating up now and Apple sees this as

00:08:27   an option for them as well, along with companies like Spotify, Sirius, Amazon,

00:08:33   and many more.

00:08:34   And the thinking is that if they want to get into this, they have to get into this

00:08:37   now before too many shows go platform exclusive to platforms that aren't Apple

00:08:42   podcasts.

00:08:43   And then the overall usage of Apple's platform is diminished.

00:08:48   Like a lot of people will say, and they're right, that Spotify is growing and kind of

00:08:54   like fighting down Apple's overall market share of the podcast industry.

00:08:58   So far, it has kind of been proven that really Spotify is adding to the pie, but

00:09:03   unless Apple does something, is the thinking, and I can understand it to a

00:09:06   point, Spotify is going to start eating in to Apple's share.

00:09:12   If they care about that, they should do something with it.

00:09:15   The current plan is apparently for them to purchase original content and create

00:09:19   spin-offs of their own, with some of this content tying in with the stuff that they

00:09:25   produce for TV Plus, and they're talking to production companies now.

00:09:29   Honestly, we've reported and spoken about reports on this many times, like all of

00:09:34   these things in the past, but it kind of feels like the wagons are circling a

00:09:38   little bit more around this than it has been before.

00:09:43   Yeah, I think circling the wagons is meant to be like assuming a defensive

00:09:48   posture, but whatever it is, whatever metaphor you want.

00:09:51   Yeah, it kind of is assuming a defensive posture.

00:09:52   Yeah, I guess so.

00:09:53   I was thinking more like they're kind of cranking up their machine or whatever,

00:09:56   but whatever metaphor you want.

00:09:58   This is a thing that has been rumored for a long time, and I don't like it, but it

00:10:03   seems like this is just the way the game is played right now.

00:10:06   Like there are so many different exclusive things now, exclusive audio

00:10:12   former podcasts, podcasts put behind a paywall, kind of stuff like that.

00:10:17   And Apple's got its services business, right?

00:10:21   So the rumor is that they would add this probably as another $5 a month

00:10:27   kind of service, but also just roll it into Apple One.

00:10:30   And at some point, I think that's an interesting bit of analysis is does

00:10:36   Apple really want people to pay for it so much as, or does Apple just

00:10:41   want to sweeten the bundle, right?

00:10:43   Like the, that the $5 a month, they don't really expect anybody

00:10:46   to pay it for $5 a month.

00:10:48   They really just expect to make the Apple One bundle look better.

00:10:51   Um, and there's a lot of fascinating kind of buying psychology behind that one.

00:10:58   Um, I don't know.

00:11:00   It's, uh, I don't like the idea of walling off, uh, walling off podcasts, but I also

00:11:07   get that Spotify is, is, uh, playing hard ball here and that Apple's position

00:11:14   as a controlling force, a commanding force in podcasts is a little bit under siege.

00:11:20   So I get why they would want to do something.

00:11:22   The sleeping giant as Apple have very frequently referred to.

00:11:25   Yeah.

00:11:25   I feel like Apple could like make it available, not as a service, but just an

00:11:31   exclusive to the podcast app if they wanted to, which they've done already,

00:11:35   or tried to do already with Apple news today.

00:11:38   Yeah, exactly.

00:11:39   Just to, just to create more weight to like, why, why not?

00:11:42   Why listen to everything in Spotify?

00:11:44   Some stuff you need to be, but we're going to end up in a fractured, we're already

00:11:47   there, a fractured system where you've got podcasts that you can listen to

00:11:50   anywhere, and then you've got some that you can only listen to here or there,

00:11:53   whatever, and that's kind of unfortunate, but I'm not surprised if Apple.

00:11:58   We've been hearing this for a long time that Apple was going down this direction.

00:12:02   Wasn't there a, uh, uh, there was a pick on connected.

00:12:05   One of, one of the annual picks was about this and I think it was Steven and he got

00:12:09   it right because of the news podcast that Apple is doing, but this would be a whole

00:12:12   other level if they do things that are like behind a, uh, uh, uh, a service wall,

00:12:18   a paywall, that would be, that'd be a new, a new step for Apple.

00:12:23   Yeah, I think the service itself, I imagine will be more like TV plus than

00:12:31   news plus.

00:12:33   I don't think there's going to be like, support your favorite current show

00:12:39   by paying us and we'll pay them.

00:12:40   I think it's going to be very much like, Hey, look at all this content we have,

00:12:44   uh, from people that you may know from producers that you may know, don't

00:12:49   you want this, give us money.

00:12:50   I think that it's going to be more of option B and option A.

00:12:55   Is that, you know, you see, I think I see a lot of people comparing it to one or

00:12:59   the other or saying like, Oh, this is going to be like news plus.

00:13:02   Um, I don't think it's going to be like that.

00:13:04   I really don't.

00:13:05   I don't think Apple's going to get into the business of collecting up membership

00:13:09   money on behalf of other producers.

00:13:11   Uh, and honestly, I think that, that they would have an even harder time getting

00:13:16   companies to agree to that than they do with news plus.

00:13:19   Um, yeah, cause it's, you know, at this point it's, it's almost trivial for

00:13:25   producers to create their own membership programs, like, like the one we have.

00:13:29   I don't, Apple can't really offer anything.

00:13:33   Yeah.

00:13:33   That's, that's one of the parts about this report that I thought was interesting is

00:13:36   the idea that they're trying to do like extensions, which, you know, you could do,

00:13:41   but you make a good point, which is, um, what's, what cut are you getting?

00:13:47   And would you be better off just doing it yourself as a podcast creator?

00:13:50   Cause I remember like, uh, hello from the magic tavern when they went on ear Wolf.

00:13:54   One of the things that they did is for the premium ear Wolf subscription is they

00:14:00   built, they did a spinoff that was not the core magic tavern, but they did their

00:14:06   spinoff.

00:14:07   There was some stuff for this on luminary too.

00:14:09   There was some spinoffs of popular shows on luminary.

00:14:11   Yeah.

00:14:12   So, so that's a strategy, but again, it's sort of like, it, I think it only

00:14:19   probably works if you are so high profile that Apple is going to guarantee you

00:14:24   money.

00:14:24   Um, that right.

00:14:27   That it's not going to be like, well, you'll get, you know, a percentage based

00:14:30   on how many people listen to your thing and all that and much more like we're

00:14:34   trying to build something here.

00:14:35   And so we're going to pay you more than, than you're going to earn for us in order

00:14:39   to build off our service.

00:14:41   And, and maybe Apple will do that, but I think that's the only way you're going to

00:14:44   get most, uh, anybody who's got a following big enough to have it be a

00:14:49   motivator to listen on Apple podcasts is you're going to have to, if you're Apple,

00:14:54   you're going to have to write them a check and, and, and admit that a maker of

00:14:59   podcast X that is very popular doing spinoff or bonus version or something for

00:15:03   you.

00:15:04   Also, you've got to find somebody who doesn't have that strategy already, which

00:15:10   I think most very popular podcasts probably already have a Patreon or

00:15:15   membership of some kind, but you've got to come in there as if you're Apple in

00:15:19   that scenario and say, uh, we're going to pay you 50 grand, a hundred grand,

00:15:26   250,000, whatever it is, we're going to pay you just a check to do this for us.

00:15:32   Because we need to build our service on the back of people like you and all that

00:15:37   value accumulates to us.

00:15:39   And we know that, so here's some money to help us do that.

00:15:42   And it has to be more than what they just make doing it themselves.

00:15:46   So I, I don't know.

00:15:49   It'll be interesting to see what they, what they do.

00:15:50   And I'm not entirely convinced that it will do anything, but this is an

00:15:55   interesting thing.

00:15:56   I read a report, um, that analysts are starting to question Spotify's move here

00:16:05   because there is no indication right now that they're seeing any growth in

00:16:13   subscriptions because of podcasts that they've brought in, right.

00:16:18   They're doing a great job of increasing podcasts, listening on their platforms.

00:16:21   And there may be some benefits from that, including something that we talked about

00:16:25   when they started this, which is the more time people on Spotify are listening to

00:16:28   podcasts, which are free more or less than, uh, music, which they have to pay

00:16:32   rights to, uh, you know, rights fees.

00:16:34   Then that's, that's sort of good for Spotify, but I think, I think that's the

00:16:39   risk, right?

00:16:40   Is that Spotify is making this big move that Apple is going to have to answer for

00:16:44   in order to get control of this, a little subset of an industry called podcasting

00:16:50   that has no value to them.

00:16:53   Right.

00:16:54   And that we didn't even mention, like another story that is related to this is,

00:16:59   uh, the, the public radio consortium that bought pocket casts a couple of years ago.

00:17:03   They put that up for sale.

00:17:05   And, and, and I looked at that story and I thought this, this feels to me a little

00:17:10   bit similar.

00:17:12   I don't know the details of that at all, other than, but it just gives me this

00:17:15   vibe that maybe there was a brief idea that podcast infrastructure was a gold

00:17:23   rush.

00:17:24   And maybe it's not, maybe everybody who rushed there is now like, why are we doing

00:17:30   this?

00:17:30   Like, this is not, which is not to say that podcasters aren't making money, but

00:17:35   like, is Spotify really benefiting by all the money that they put into podcasting?

00:17:39   Is that really going to lift them or are they now a major player in a space that

00:17:44   doesn't help them because you could, being a major player is great.

00:17:49   It's great.

00:17:49   But if all it is is pride and like nickels and dimes, but you spent a lot of money

00:17:59   and you're spending a lot of effort and potentially diluting your brand and

00:18:03   diverting your audience from, I always thought that there was an issue with

00:18:07   Spotify that you were going to get people hooked on podcasts and they were going to

00:18:09   realize they didn't need to pay for Spotify anymore.

00:18:11   So I don't know.

00:18:13   I don't know.

00:18:14   It's, it'll be interesting to see what happens here, but, um, I think those

00:18:18   analysts comments are, are fascinating.

00:18:20   Like what if Spotify has done a good job here and has, has, and then looks at the

00:18:25   results and says, Oh, it didn't really do anything like important.

00:18:29   All right.

00:18:29   It's like people were just still, I mean, they might be signing up, they're signing

00:18:33   up for the free accounts.

00:18:34   It's like, it's not moving the needle and they spent $800 million on it.

00:18:38   Exactly.

00:18:39   And it's like, okay, you may have done a decent job bringing, making some money

00:18:46   here or whatever, but it isn't worth that close to a billion dollars you've spent on

00:18:50   this.

00:18:51   Um, we've conquered Greenland everybody.

00:18:53   Yeah.

00:18:54   Well, great.

00:18:54   What can we do in Greenland?

00:18:55   Hmm.

00:18:56   Not much.

00:18:58   It's like, okay, why did we do it then?

00:19:01   Well, because we could like, that's, that's the question, right?

00:19:04   And maybe, maybe they've got a good answer and maybe they're happy with it.

00:19:07   I don't know, but, uh, I do wonder.

00:19:10   I do wonder.

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00:21:22   So the one of two Bloomberg reports that we're going to talk about in

00:21:26   detail today have come from friend of the show, actual real friend of the show.

00:21:30   Mark Gurman.

00:21:31   Yeah.

00:21:32   He was busy, busy, busy boy, busy boy last week.

00:21:35   All right.

00:21:35   Let's talk about just like 50,000 feet thing here.

00:21:37   Uh huh.

00:21:39   Well, there's, there's, I think one more report that we're not going to talk about

00:21:42   today.

00:21:43   We might talk about it next time.

00:21:44   But it seemed like, I don't know what happened, but like Mark had a bunch of

00:21:49   things and just released them all at once.

00:21:52   It's really interesting.

00:21:53   It was weird too, cause it was, it was Friday, right?

00:21:57   So it was almost like the Friday afternoon news drop, which is weird because you

00:22:01   try to hide things on Fridays and, and, and they were all separate articles as

00:22:05   well on vacation.

00:22:07   I don't know.

00:22:08   Interesting.

00:22:09   I'd love to know why, but so the first one we're going to talk about is a report

00:22:12   on the new Mac book pros.

00:22:14   So I'll go through this.

00:22:15   We can stop and talk about all of the features as they, as they go.

00:22:19   Uh, we're looking at 14 and 16 inch models going to be available in the Mac book

00:22:25   pro line.

00:22:26   Um, this makes sense.

00:22:29   I think we'd expected that, right?

00:22:30   Like you, you spoke about it in your predictions that it was the year for the

00:22:34   14 inch right.

00:22:36   Uh, next generation versions of Apple silicone chips with quote more cause and

00:22:41   enhanced graphics.

00:22:43   Now, yeah, the thing I need to mention is coming mid year, right?

00:22:48   So this is suggesting that June this year we'll see something.

00:22:51   So let's talk about this then.

00:22:53   Um, are we looking at.

00:22:56   An enhanced M one, or are we talking like whatever the next class of chip is?

00:23:03   What do you think it could be either one, right?

00:23:05   Like this could be an M two or it could be an M one X, but the fact that it's only

00:23:10   six months out makes me think it's more likely to be for lack of a better word,

00:23:14   the M one X that it's an M one with more cores and it's more, you know, it's the

00:23:23   M one pro essentially that, that the, but it's up to them.

00:23:27   They can number these however they want, right?

00:23:29   They could number every single one in sequence, or they could say like each chip

00:23:32   generation, like on the, a series is a number.

00:23:37   And then the variants have letters at the end of them.

00:23:39   My guess is that six months in, you know, they're not going to be doing something

00:23:42   that's based on the next chip generation.

00:23:44   They're going to be based on this chip generation.

00:23:47   So I would say maybe M one X is the thing and having it be mid year WWDC,

00:23:53   essentially, um, that would make sense, right?

00:23:56   You, you got, you can't put just the same M one in a Mac book pro.

00:23:59   That's why it's only in the Mac book air and the low end Mac book pro now.

00:24:03   So what do you do to make those other systems more high end?

00:24:07   And the answer is, yeah, it is a, is a better chip, right?

00:24:10   So they would have to do that.

00:24:12   Yeah.

00:24:12   Um, so having it in these models, the Mac book pro models make sense to me.

00:24:15   Here's the thing that I will just follow as a possibility.

00:24:18   Uh, what if it's like M one, M two, M three, and then like next year's is

00:24:23   M one X, M two X, M three X, and they have different chips at different levels

00:24:29   of the product line and they're called different things, you know?

00:24:33   Yeah.

00:24:33   I don't know.

00:24:34   I mean, they, they, so many of the things we talk about here end up coming back to

00:24:39   what's Apple's marketing decision.

00:24:40   Yep.

00:24:41   Because they got a strategy technically that they're executing.

00:24:44   This is our, this is our iMac pro argument, right?

00:24:46   Will there be an iMac pro?

00:24:47   And I think we all kind of settled on the idea that, well, there could be,

00:24:52   but it's really just up to Apple.

00:24:54   If they want to call it, none of us seems to really believe that there's going to

00:24:57   be an iMac pro that's totally different from the iMac that keeps kicking around.

00:25:01   That seems unlikely, but that isn't stopping them from calling something iMac

00:25:07   pro and, you know, they chose to call this chip the M one they could call.

00:25:13   They could give it a name.

00:25:15   They could call it like M one Eagle, or they could call it M one ultra M one pro

00:25:22   like the Mac book pro has the M one pro, or they could just stick with what

00:25:26   they're doing and call it the M one X and like they did with the iPad chips.

00:25:29   And maybe they'll do that.

00:25:30   I, we, who knows, or they'll just call it the M one and say, this is a new version

00:25:34   of the M one it's a, it's the this many cores M one.

00:25:38   They it's that their choice, but it doesn't change fundamentally what

00:25:41   they're doing here, which is probably taking the same chip as the M one,

00:25:45   but a variant that's got more cores and, uh, and enhanced graphics as

00:25:49   Mark Herman said, a variant on the M one.

00:25:52   There isn't a talk in this, uh, Mac book pro, uh, rumor, at least a report,

00:25:59   at least of dedicated GPUs.

00:26:06   Do you think that that is something we would see in a Mac book pro, or do you

00:26:10   think they're all just going to be system on a chip integrated GPUs

00:26:13   and there'll be powerful enough?

00:26:15   My feeling is that that'll be on the chip for now.

00:26:22   And it will probably be enough, right?

00:26:24   And it could, the power that they're looking at.

00:26:26   Exactly.

00:26:28   And that they'll, they'll add GPU cores.

00:26:30   And, um, I think Apple probably wants to get somewhere.

00:26:34   You look at the Mac pro and think Apple probably wants to get somewhere

00:26:39   where it can use external GPUs, but.

00:26:42   Does it have to get there in 2021?

00:26:45   Eh, I don't think, you know, mid year, 2021 with a Mac book pro.

00:26:50   Does it really need that?

00:26:51   Can it have enough graphics superpowers with, with its own GPU that it needs?

00:26:56   It doesn't need to do that.

00:26:57   Um, my guess is that, that it'll keep it simple for this first generation of chips.

00:27:05   So we said coming mid year, this feels like a very, very sweet WWDC announcement,

00:27:11   right?

00:27:11   Like here's your new MacBook pros.

00:27:13   That's a perfect audience for it.

00:27:14   Like that feels just about right.

00:27:16   Like here they are, they're available now.

00:27:19   Right?

00:27:19   Like I can see, I could have really imagined this.

00:27:23   Uh, you know, the, the, the Mac pro is for many people, their computer, but

00:27:28   for developers, it's like the computer.

00:27:30   Um, I could really imagine that.

00:27:31   Right.

00:27:32   It feels like it fits in quite nicely.

00:27:33   Higher contrast displays.

00:27:38   So we have to wait and see what exactly what that looks like, but better display

00:27:44   technology in some form or fashion, uh, allowing for better color reproduction,

00:27:48   reproduction, and apparently they, these MacBook pros will look similar

00:27:54   with minor design changes.

00:27:56   So you'd expect, uh, the 14 inch will look most like the 16 inch

00:28:01   rather than the 13 inch now.

00:28:03   Right.

00:28:03   So like the 14 will change the most.

00:28:06   It will start to look like the newer generation, but that overall doesn't

00:28:10   seem like from Mark Gurman's report that they're going to look that different.

00:28:13   Um, I will add that Ming-Chi Kuo also had a report about these, which

00:28:19   detailed just a couple of things extra.

00:28:20   One of the things that Kuo says is that they will get a flat edged design,

00:28:24   which makes logical sense.

00:28:27   Right.

00:28:27   That's the Apple 2020, 2021 design language.

00:28:31   Right.

00:28:33   Yeah.

00:28:33   That'll look more like a, uh, two ply, uh, iPad pro kind of thing.

00:28:39   Right.

00:28:39   That's the way to put it, but yes.

00:28:41   Yep.

00:28:41   Yeah.

00:28:42   Yeah.

00:28:43   I I'm, that's why I'm in marketing, right?

00:28:45   That's why I'm not in marketing.

00:28:46   It's a marketing decision.

00:28:47   They can call it what they want.

00:28:48   We know what it looks like.

00:28:49   Yeah.

00:28:50   I, I, this is interesting.

00:28:52   Cause Gurman sort of saying, man, it'll look more or less the same and Ming-Chi

00:28:55   Kuo saying, well, no, it's going to be a little bit flat edge.

00:28:58   These, this may be just the opinion of people who've seen it.

00:29:02   Yeah.

00:29:03   And that they're actually describing the same thing.

00:29:05   It's the parable of the blind man and the elephant, right?

00:29:07   Like they're, they're actually the same, but coming at it from different

00:29:11   directions, but it does seem contradictory on the surface, just it's more or less

00:29:16   like the old design and Ming-Chi Kuo saying, no, it's really not.

00:29:19   So the way I've, I mean, cause you know, like MacBook pros have science.

00:29:25   My imagination for what is being described here.

00:29:29   Um, is that they will, they will be flat on the bottom because the MacBook

00:29:37   pro kind of has that taper out and it's a bit chunkier at the bottom, right?

00:29:40   I imagine them kind of basically making it a all flat box kind of design.

00:29:47   Yeah.

00:29:47   Well, well, yeah, the, the idea that it isn't going to have the sides that are

00:29:51   like the sort of sort of sweepy curved, but are instead more like a flat edge.

00:29:55   And then, and then a very quick kind of like right angle.

00:29:59   To another flat.

00:29:59   Be nice if they made them even thinner to make that happen.

00:30:02   That'd be fun.

00:30:03   Just for, you know, why not?

00:30:04   If they were thinner, lighter, I would love thinner and lighter.

00:30:07   There's nothing about that in any of these reports, but I'm just always

00:30:11   laptops thinner and lighter as long as they keep the power.

00:30:13   Of course.

00:30:15   Um, okay.

00:30:16   MagSafe is apparently coming back again because it already came back,

00:30:20   but it's coming back again.

00:30:22   Well, yeah, this is more like coming back though.

00:30:25   So Mark Gurman is saying that MagSafe on the new MacBook Pros is going to be

00:30:30   more like the old version of the MagSafe design, almost like a pill shaped kind

00:30:35   of connector, not what we've seen for iPhones, which I think is confusing.

00:30:42   I don't know.

00:30:43   You know, it's again, it's just how they market it.

00:30:46   They're like, we use MagSafe technology in a bunch of different ways and a

00:30:48   bunch of different places on the Mac.

00:30:50   MagSafe is like this and on the iPhone MagSafe is like this.

00:30:52   And then I think they could, they could get away with it.

00:30:56   It is interesting though.

00:30:57   One of the things that most frustrates me about a person who talks about Apple

00:31:03   products in an audio medium for a living is having to qualify everything.

00:31:08   I know.

00:31:09   And this would be just another qualification.

00:31:11   MagSafe for MacBook Pro, MagSafe for iPhone, right?

00:31:15   Like which one?

00:31:16   The old, no, no, the old MagSafe.

00:31:18   No, not that one.

00:31:18   The second generation MagSafe.

00:31:20   No, no, not that one.

00:31:21   The right angle connector, not the, yeah.

00:31:23   Yeah, I know it's that for us, it's going to be extra confusing if it happens.

00:31:27   Isn't this fascinating though, the idea that, um, this is an undo, right?

00:31:34   This is, this is an undo of a design decision that Apple made mid last decade,

00:31:40   where they said, we're going to introduce USB-C and we're just going to drop MagSafe

00:31:44   and we're just going to focus on USB-C charging and it sounds like according to

00:31:48   Gurman, they're, they're tossing that and they're going to, I wonder if they'll

00:31:53   also allow USB-C charging?

00:31:55   I'm convinced they will.

00:31:57   Cause that would be madness to not have that as an option.

00:32:01   Well, and, and like docking, you know, docking to a monitor and stuff like that,

00:32:04   you know, to be able to charge that way rather than having a second thing.

00:32:08   It would be really annoying to both have to, uh, plug in a USB-C cable and a MagSafe

00:32:16   when technically there's no reason that you would need to do that.

00:32:19   Right.

00:32:20   Right.

00:32:21   Um, yeah, I, I mean, Apple's really annoyed people before, but I think you're

00:32:25   probably right that why would you backtrack offering a little MagSafe, um,

00:32:30   thing, a little MagSafe pill.

00:32:32   And also of course, yes, if you plug into the Thunderbolt port, it's

00:32:36   going to charge and it's fine.

00:32:37   Like that, that would be the best way to do it.

00:32:40   So I think it's great news because I, I like MagSafe and I miss it.

00:32:45   And having just bought a new Mac book air and you know, I didn't use my old

00:32:50   Mac book air that much anymore, but like it was still a MagSafe Mac book air.

00:32:53   And then the new one I'm like, I'm going to put this down.

00:32:55   Oh, I need to plug it in now.

00:32:57   Here's the plug.

00:32:59   Right.

00:32:59   Uh, yeah, it's not as good.

00:33:01   It's just not as good.

00:33:02   I know this is like news from 2017 for most people, but it's still,

00:33:07   yeah, MagSafe still good.

00:33:08   This one puzzles me though, a little bit because I can't really imagine that

00:33:13   the technology has advanced and will provide me with any different functionality.

00:33:18   Right.

00:33:19   Like it's going to be a little connected as a magnet and it

00:33:22   connects to my laptop and charges it.

00:33:24   And so the story of it coming back is going to be really weird.

00:33:30   Like at best I can imagine they were like, once we brought MagSafe to the

00:33:34   iPhone, we were like, wow, we should bring it to like, you know what I mean?

00:33:37   Like the, I I'm, I'm really kind of struggling to wrap my head around.

00:33:40   Like why?

00:33:43   Like, why did you get rid of it?

00:33:45   Now?

00:33:45   Why is it here again?

00:33:46   Again, here I am not the marketing professional, but I would imagine

00:33:50   looking at Apple's history, that what they'll do is a classic Apple move

00:33:53   where they do something to right or wrong caused by Apple and sort of say,

00:33:59   aren't we heroes look what we did.

00:34:02   So the idea that they'll come out and say, and you know, we're bringing

00:34:06   MagSafe back because people love it.

00:34:08   Like let's not mention that, you know, we also killed it, but we brought it back.

00:34:12   Aren't you happy?

00:34:13   Aren't you grateful that we brought it back?

00:34:14   Yay.

00:34:15   It's like we made a keyboard.

00:34:16   That's good.

00:34:17   Yay.

00:34:18   And everybody's like, well, you made the bad keyboard too.

00:34:20   It's like, but the keyboard is good now.

00:34:22   You hurry.

00:34:23   So I think, I think it'll be like that.

00:34:25   All right.

00:34:25   Well, let's try your new found market and prowess on this next one.

00:34:29   Apple is apparently testing the removal of the touch bar.

00:34:33   People like people like the function keys.

00:34:36   We brought them back.

00:34:36   Yay.

00:34:38   It's got a complete keyboard.

00:34:39   You know, this is not just our magic keyboard, but it's doing something

00:34:42   that the MacBook pro hasn't done for a while now, which is we've added an

00:34:46   extra row of function keys because people love function keys.

00:34:51   Yay.

00:34:52   Hooray.

00:34:53   This one's even weirder than me.

00:34:56   Well, I mean, talk about reverting to.

00:35:00   Oh, if this is true, I am fascinated to know what happened behind the scenes

00:35:08   where at some point somebody in Mac product design was like, Getting rid of

00:35:14   magsafe was a mistake, putting the touch bar on was a mistake.

00:35:16   I want them.

00:35:17   I want them dead.

00:35:18   I want them gone.

00:35:19   Um, we need to backtrack our laptops and you know, people say this stuff

00:35:25   outside of Apple all the time, but to hear it from inside Apple would be

00:35:28   fascinating because it is essentially Apple saying, you know what, our, our

00:35:34   laptops were better in 2015 than they are today that we went backward and now

00:35:41   we're going to go back to the future, whatever it is.

00:35:45   Right.

00:35:45   And that it's, although, although Myke, the magic keyboard is also an example

00:35:54   of that where they're like, remember that keyboard that people liked.

00:35:58   We're bringing it back.

00:35:59   And the Mac book air is that, which is, Oh yeah, we made these other Mac

00:36:05   books that people didn't buy, but, uh, the Mac book air.

00:36:07   So we're bringing it back.

00:36:09   We're going to do a new version of that too.

00:36:10   So you could argue that Apple has already been spending the last couple

00:36:14   of years trying to undo all their bad decisions from mid decade on their

00:36:17   laptops, but this would be pretty.

00:36:19   A pretty major repudiation of every attempt that they made.

00:36:25   Like the touch bar is like literally the only innovative Mac thing that

00:36:29   they did in between, I don't know when between sometime early and what I

00:36:35   want to say is between the introduction of the second generation MacBook air

00:36:38   and the M one, perhaps the most innovative, I mean, they did the

00:36:42   trashcan, which didn't work out the trashcan Mac pro and they did the

00:36:45   touch bar and if they take the touch bar away, they already killed the

00:36:49   trashcan Mac pro, but if they take the touch bar away, it is kind of a

00:36:53   repudiation of a decade of, of.

00:36:56   Uh, or, or maybe it just puts a little cherry on top of a decade where not a

00:37:00   lot of stuff happened on the Mac that the stuff that they did try didn't even

00:37:03   work very well and they had to dump it.

00:37:05   I mean, combining this with another thing from Ming Chi Kuo that more

00:37:09   ports are coming through the laptops.

00:37:11   I, I have no idea what's what's going on here.

00:37:15   Right?

00:37:16   Yeah.

00:37:16   Is there an SD card in there too?

00:37:18   Is there an HDMI?

00:37:19   Maybe.

00:37:20   I don't know.

00:37:21   I don't know.

00:37:22   I mean, this is, so when we talked about Apple Silicon unlocking a future for the

00:37:27   Mac, I'm not sure what I expected is that the future would actually be undoing

00:37:32   everything that's happened in the last six years.

00:37:35   The future is the past.

00:37:37   That's what we've learned here.

00:37:38   Yeah.

00:37:39   Yeah.

00:37:39   Everything goes around.

00:37:41   Rainbow logo.

00:37:42   It's going to be in beige.

00:37:43   It's going to be, let's just go all the way back people all the way back.

00:37:47   I don't know what to make of this.

00:37:49   Look, let me just say, sounds like an incredible product.

00:37:52   And everyone's going to lose their collective mind when, when, if they

00:37:55   announce all of this stuff, but they didn't even mention whether there's face ID,

00:37:59   which I would hope that if they redesign these products, they would put the, the

00:38:03   sensors on to do face ID too, right?

00:38:07   And I think that, that I think Apple will consider that acceptable for the laptop

00:38:12   line for quite a while.

00:38:13   It's probably, it's probably fine, but I still had that when I was docked when I

00:38:18   had my laptop.

00:38:19   Well, yeah, I mean, it's fine.

00:38:20   Cause you put it in clamshell mode and it can't see you anyway, right?

00:38:23   For face ID.

00:38:24   So it's fine.

00:38:25   Uh, we'll save that for the iMac.

00:38:26   Maybe they'll do it there, but I don't know.

00:38:28   This is, um, you're right from a product introduction standpoint, it will be very

00:38:34   interesting to see how Apple addresses or chooses just not to address the fact that

00:38:40   it's undone a bunch of the things that it, it had done in the past.

00:38:44   This is the, you know, swallowing its pride kind of thing.

00:38:48   But my guess is that based on their previous behavior, they'll just touted as a

00:38:52   great new thing.

00:38:53   And when you ask them about it, um, on the record, if they say anything, it'll, it'll

00:38:59   just be sort of like, but this is, it's one louder, isn't it?

00:39:03   But this is new, but this is good.

00:39:06   Like, well, yeah, but what about the touch bar?

00:39:07   It's like, well, we think that, uh, we think people will use this.

00:39:11   Like, I, my guess is that they won't even talk about it.

00:39:13   I could imagine a, we listened to our customers.

00:39:18   For the touch bar.

00:39:18   Yeah, that's a, that's a good one that they, that they do a lot, which is we

00:39:22   listened and although we think that the touch bar was innovative, you know, the

00:39:26   fact is that it wasn't being as used as much as we'd hoped and that people really

00:39:30   liked the physical keys, they, they could lean into that and say, um, it, it, it

00:39:36   turns out that adding a touch surface on that plane didn't actually work or they

00:39:41   could just say, we, you know, people wanted this, so we're going to give them what

00:39:45   they want.

00:39:45   Yeah.

00:39:46   This isn't in, this is, I mean, look, we have more, but like, this is the beginning

00:39:51   of what seems to be a very clearly interesting and exciting year for the Mac.

00:39:58   Oh yeah.

00:40:00   If they do this stuff and let's just say, right, like when it comes to things like

00:40:04   this, Mark Gurman has a very, very good track record, right.

00:40:09   With like hardware.

00:40:11   Right.

00:40:12   I think that's pretty fair to say.

00:40:14   Um, either they just do all the things that's in Mark Gurman's article here.

00:40:19   That is a unpredictable computer from a year ago, 18 months ago.

00:40:27   Right.

00:40:29   Like tell me, uh, long time user of the Mac.

00:40:34   What are all of the things that are wrong with the current crop of Macbook pros and

00:40:38   what do you want them to do?

00:40:39   And then you go through and list all the things and then then Apple says, here you

00:40:44   go then, and that doesn't seem right.

00:40:47   It's like, oh, okay.

00:40:49   We're going to get bigger screens, uh, better chips, better displays, uh,

00:40:54   mag safe, more ports, uh, and a removal of the touch bar.

00:40:58   Well, so I, a couple of weeks ago I wrote a Mac world piece where I said, um, Apple,

00:41:05   it was keyed off of this, uh, Twitter comment that somebody made where the only

00:41:08   Intel Mac that was in 20 max for 2020 was the first generation or the second

00:41:13   generation Mac book air.

00:41:14   And I said, I didn't realize that, which is funny.

00:41:19   And then there were some other ones that were kind of on my list, but I, I, the

00:41:23   piece in Mac world that I wrote was basically that Apple sort of had a Mac

00:41:28   stasis for most of the 2010s.

00:41:30   It was just sort of on a combination, I would say of a mid decade, sort of not

00:41:37   focusing on the Mac.

00:41:38   And also I, I think a perception that they got it right with the Mac and that

00:41:43   flurry of creative activity that they did between, you know, 98 and 2010,

00:41:49   that they kind of got it right.

00:41:51   And now the Mac is shaped up and they obviously were moving on to worrying

00:41:56   about the iPhone and the iPad and the Apple watch and like the Mac is doing

00:41:59   great because they did spend, they, they, they threw so much at the wall in that

00:42:04   period of 12 years in terms of the Mac.

00:42:08   And completely transformed it.

00:42:09   So that's great, but that was a long time ago.

00:42:12   Now that was more than a decade ago and the 2010s didn't really

00:42:16   have a lot that was successful.

00:42:18   And so while I'm excited about the idea that in 2021, they might be undoing

00:42:23   some of the things that they tried to make the Mac different that weren't

00:42:27   successful, I, I have to ask.

00:42:35   Does Apple think that the MacBook pro is perfect?

00:42:38   Like, do they think that the, do they really think that other than chip

00:42:43   speed and some spec updates and maybe some thinness and lightness, that the

00:42:49   thing that they designed that the retina MacBook pro of 2014 or whatever was

00:42:55   perfect and that there's nothing more to be done with a laptop that a laptop

00:42:59   that's sort of silvery metallic with a regular keyboard with a magic keyboard

00:43:04   with function keys and a big track pad and a non touch screen and some ports

00:43:12   on it is literally all a laptop should ever be or could ever be?

00:43:15   Um, cause I'm not sure I believe that I'm not, I think maybe they designed

00:43:22   to the perfect laptop for a decade, but that was a decade ago.

00:43:26   What's next?

00:43:28   And you see the PC laptop makers struggling, trying all sorts of different

00:43:32   things.

00:43:33   Some of them are successful.

00:43:34   Maybe some of them are not.

00:43:35   Apple doesn't do that in public.

00:43:38   Apple does that behind the scenes and perhaps they've tried a whole bunch of

00:43:41   different things and none of them are good, but I am increasingly skeptical

00:43:45   that the solution in the long run to making a great Mac book pro is to have

00:43:51   it, you know, be a blast from the past.

00:43:53   It's just, it's a step getting rid of the bad stuff and not holding onto

00:43:58   it when you decided it doesn't work.

00:44:00   Sorry, people who like the touch bar, but like, I feel like in general, it,

00:44:04   it was, it was a cul-de-sac for them.

00:44:08   So I like the touch bar in theory and I like what I use of it, but it is a

00:44:14   failure because nothing's changed on it since it came about.

00:44:17   That's I think that's exactly right.

00:44:19   Which is even if you like the touch bar, what I would say is Apple doesn't

00:44:23   clearly doesn't like the touch bar because Apple has made almost no attempt

00:44:27   to make it better.

00:44:27   And it's been years now.

00:44:29   And it's not any better.

00:44:31   And there were so many clear things that if they had like iterated and the

00:44:34   next version of Mac OS added a whole bunch of touch bar stuff and all that.

00:44:37   Sure.

00:44:38   But they never did it, which suggests to me that whoever championed the touch

00:44:43   bar, nobody else inside Apple believed it and, and went along with it.

00:44:47   So.

00:44:48   So don't get me wrong undoing failures or like eliminating mag safe or bad

00:44:56   product decisions, like conceiving of a touch bar and shipping it.

00:44:59   And then, and then realizing that you got it wrong or not getting the, you

00:45:03   know, not putting effort into making it a success, whatever that story is.

00:45:07   That's all good, but I still am left.

00:45:10   If, if we look at the, the Mac book pro line at the end of this year, or maybe

00:45:16   in a couple of years, and it looks the same more or less as the Mac book pro

00:45:23   from mid last decade, and the message is really like, oh, we're sorry.

00:45:26   It turns out the Mac book pro of 2015 was the best Mac book pro.

00:45:30   So we're going back to that.

00:45:32   That's okay.

00:45:35   It's pragmatic, but I would say it's also disappointing because I feel like.

00:45:40   Apple should be pushing what a laptop is a little bit more than they are.

00:45:47   Cause I don't, I mean, I can see the argument that maybe the laptop has a

00:45:51   perfect shape and maybe they found it and that they defined it and that's what it

00:45:55   is, but that sounds a lot like an end of history argument to me, it sounds a lot

00:45:59   like, well, now that the Soviet union has fallen and the cold war is over, there

00:46:03   will never be anything more that will happen and everything will stay the same

00:46:06   forever, which is what people legitimately said in the nineties.

00:46:09   They were completely wrong history.

00:46:11   It never ends right.

00:46:13   As Dr.

00:46:14   Manhattan said in watchmen, it never ends right.

00:46:17   You always, you, if you get complacent and you say, oh, well, we solved it,

00:46:20   we're done, like, I, I don't think that inside Apple, people are complacent

00:46:26   about it, but I do wonder if Apple has, has just decided that there's never

00:46:29   going to be anything better than the MacBook pro in the shape that it's that

00:46:34   we know it and that it should just stay that way forever.

00:46:36   And I think that's a mistake.

00:46:38   I think, I think they will regret that eventually if they aren't trying to push

00:46:42   it so great, you know, great first step, but reverting to previous version is

00:46:48   hard to, it's hard to cheer at that as like a great victory, because it's

00:46:52   not moving anything ahead.

00:46:54   It's just fixing problems and fixing problems is probably step one of

00:46:58   moving ahead, but what's step two.

00:47:00   This feels more like it needs to be, uh, a reversion to a new baseline.

00:47:08   And then they push forward.

00:47:11   And then forward.

00:47:12   Yeah.

00:47:12   I hope so.

00:47:13   I hope so.

00:47:14   They're like, we got, like I said about the touch bar being a cul-de-sac it's

00:47:17   like, okay, we're backing out of here and then we can get on the freeway.

00:47:22   Then we can, then we can, then we can go.

00:47:24   And I hope that's the case.

00:47:26   I hope that's the case.

00:47:26   There's no, no rumors about that sort of thing.

00:47:28   Now, you know, one great way to explain the disappearance of the touch

00:47:32   bar would be to add a touch screen.

00:47:33   Just saying, you know, I thought that, but I, I was imagining that like,

00:47:38   we don't need a touch bar if all of those actions are now on the screen.

00:47:43   Right.

00:47:43   And it's, but my thought was that I'm sure, I'm sure if it did

00:47:49   go and would have known that.

00:47:50   Yep.

00:47:51   I'm convinced.

00:47:53   And Quo too, honestly, I think they would both know.

00:47:56   One of them would have, one of them would have reported that and they didn't.

00:47:59   Um, but I still don't think that that, that that means I am very much in the

00:48:04   camp of there will be a touch screen on a Mac, I think it's going to happen.

00:48:08   I think it could happen this year.

00:48:09   Um, but I think it will be over in the next couple of years.

00:48:12   And, uh, I will not accept that just because they haven't done

00:48:16   it means they will not do it.

00:48:17   You know, like I think a lot of people go like, ha ha, see, there's

00:48:21   no touch screens on these laptops.

00:48:22   It's like, I don't think that that means anything.

00:48:24   It just means there's no touch screens on these laptops.

00:48:27   Um, I did want to just circle back to, to the fact that the MacBook

00:48:32   Air being the only Mac and the modern Mac in 20 for 2020, I think if you

00:48:37   were doing 30 for 2030, uh, the iMac Pro would be in it, I think it's

00:48:42   too soon to it, but the iMac Pro feels like a very good candidate

00:48:46   for what was 20 max for 2020.

00:48:49   I mean, I wrote, I wrote a thing on six colors about the sort of what

00:48:52   was on the cutting room floor and yeah, there are, there are definitely

00:48:55   part of the challenge is you want to tell the story of the sweep of history.

00:48:59   And the truth is a lot of the recent stuff, everybody knows that story.

00:49:04   Cause we just, it just happened and you don't know, and you don't know how it

00:49:08   ended like the, I, I would argue the iMac Pro story still hasn't been

00:49:12   told because it's still being sold.

00:49:13   We need, yeah, so this is exactly it.

00:49:15   It needs more time.

00:49:16   And when it goes away and we find out what replaces it, which is just fast

00:49:21   iMacs that run in Apple Silicon, then you can be like, Oh, I know what that

00:49:26   article is, right?

00:49:26   That article is, is all about that moment where they thought they were

00:49:29   going to kill the Mac Pro and just have an iMac and that they realized they

00:49:33   had to change, but they shipped the iMac Pro anyway, and like, there's

00:49:36   a whole story there and there are other stories like that with some other

00:49:39   models, I think the Mac 12 inch Mac book is probably a great story,

00:49:43   but is that story over?

00:49:45   Maybe, maybe not.

00:49:46   I think the thing about the iMac Pro is that it's also an excellent computer,

00:49:50   which makes the story even more fun to tell.

00:49:52   Right.

00:49:52   It's like, because where the MacBook Air was like, not great in a lot of

00:49:57   ways, sorry, the 12 inch Mac book, you know, like the story would have

00:50:00   been very different.

00:50:01   A lot of the pieces that I wrote were about Macs that weren't weren't great.

00:50:05   Sure.

00:50:05   But I mean, sometimes they're good.

00:50:07   Sometimes they're bad, but yeah.

00:50:08   But there's a, there's a super cool story in the fact that it is this weird Mac Pro,

00:50:13   which is from an alternate timeline, but they released it anyway, the iMac Pro.

00:50:17   So they released it anyway.

00:50:18   They released it anyway, and it was really good.

00:50:21   And there was only ever one of them.

00:50:22   Yeah.

00:50:23   Oh, I, I think, I think there's truth to that, that, uh, it's not just that

00:50:27   2010s was a wasteland, but it's also that we know what the 2010s is in a way.

00:50:31   We saw those stories, so I'm not really unearthing them.

00:50:34   And also we don't know how it all ends yet.

00:50:36   Right.

00:50:36   Like you do need time.

00:50:38   I had a bunch of people write me during the course of that series who said, what

00:50:41   about this current Mac and what about this current Mac?

00:50:43   And I said to a lot of them, there's a reason like the, that like sports hall

00:50:49   of fame's have a waiting period.

00:50:51   Like.

00:50:52   I think you need some perspective about some of these things and exactly where

00:50:57   they fit and the iMac Pro is a great example of a product that, uh, undoubtedly

00:51:02   there is a story to tell there, but we still don't quite know the end of it.

00:51:06   And I want to, I want to see that.

00:51:09   So that that's part of it too.

00:51:10   You're right.

00:51:11   That needs a bit of time.

00:51:13   Isn't there really?

00:51:13   Cause it's like, it's that idea of like, what is the best Mac of all time?

00:51:17   Well, you can make arguments that it's always the most recent one, but

00:51:21   maybe except for some people, the Mac Pro, but we'll see about that.

00:51:25   All right.

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00:53:45   So Mark Gurman has also published a report about the future of Apple's

00:53:49   desktop Macs too.

00:53:51   First up, new iMac.

00:53:53   Slimmer bezels, no more chin.

00:53:55   Overall, the design will be similar to the Pro Display XDR with a flat back,

00:54:00   no more like bulge like the iMacs have had.

00:54:03   And it will quote be one of the biggest visual updates to any Apple product this

00:54:09   year.

00:54:09   One of.

00:54:10   I like that.

00:54:11   Like what a hedge that is, right?

00:54:14   Well, it might not be the only, and it might not be the biggest, but it's among

00:54:18   the biggest that will probably happen.

00:54:20   Well, I mean, there's something else coming, which is a little bit weird and

00:54:22   wonderful, but I reckon this is probably going to be the biggest, uh, like redesign

00:54:28   of anything that they have in the next year.

00:54:31   Yeah, I would say depending on how you count the, uh, 2007, I think iMac or

00:54:38   2012, when they did the one that was thinner at the edges, but bulged in the

00:54:43   back is the last time the iMac got an update at all.

00:54:47   I have a 2007 iMac that looks exactly like my iMac Pro, except for the color of

00:54:51   the silver and the fact that it's got flat sides instead of the little curved

00:54:56   sides.

00:54:56   Yep.

00:54:57   Um, it really, I mean, the iMac has looked since they, they went from plastic to

00:55:02   aluminum.

00:55:03   It hasn't really changed.

00:55:04   So this is big and you and I have been begging for this for several years now,

00:55:11   because it feels like shrinking the bezels and getting rid of the chin and all of

00:55:14   that is obvious.

00:55:17   Like do that.

00:55:19   Why would you not do that?

00:55:21   But, um, it sounds like maybe it's finally going to happen.

00:55:23   Having an iMac that looks like it's just a computer monitor.

00:55:28   Like that's the dream.

00:55:30   That's been the dream for years and it's been close, right?

00:55:34   Like it's just, this looks like it's just a monitor, but ha ha, there's a computer

00:55:37   in there.

00:55:38   Like it feels like we may get to that now.

00:55:41   That's what this is going to be.

00:55:43   Like, it's not going to have space for a big Apple logo on the bottom because they

00:55:47   don't need that space anymore and they'll squeeze it all into what is

00:55:51   ostensibly just a monitor.

00:55:53   Yeah, that is, that's been the dream since they went with the G5 iMac to the flat

00:56:00   pane on a little foot is it's just a, the computer is gone.

00:56:05   The computer has vanished.

00:56:06   So, um, it's just that, you know, again, in the last decade, things have moved

00:56:11   along and Apple has pulled the bezels in on almost every other product that they've

00:56:15   made and the iMac has remained as it is.

00:56:18   And I, for a product that's as popular as the iMac.

00:56:21   And you know, when we, um, we did that episode where I talked to, uh, the product

00:56:28   manager for the iMac.

00:56:29   Um, she said, you know, it's a hugely important product.

00:56:34   Like we, we lose sight of it because of the laptops are more popular, but like iMac

00:56:39   is a huge business for Apple.

00:56:41   And I think that, um, it's, you probably got to lay it to down to Apple being

00:56:48   distracted with other stuff and deciding that the Mac was fine.

00:56:51   Like I said, in our last segment, like we got it, it's fine.

00:56:54   We'll just leave it there because it feels like the iMac should have been.

00:56:58   Redesigned a few years ago and they just didn't get to it.

00:57:03   So, hooray, cause yeah, this is a long time coming and I think it is really deserved.

00:57:08   And again, I'll throw out there that this is where much better webcam, uh, face ID

00:57:14   would be great on the iMac because you don't have a keyboard attached with a

00:57:18   touch ID sensor on it.

00:57:19   This would be a good use for something like that.

00:57:22   Um, obviously there's going to be a replacement for the larger one and the

00:57:25   smaller one.

00:57:26   There have been some rumors that the smaller one will come first, which

00:57:29   wouldn't surprise me if they did that.

00:57:31   Um, although Gherman's report here is about next year, they're going to do it to,

00:57:35   to, to, to both of them.

00:57:38   And so that's a question of would they release them both at the same time or not?

00:57:42   Uh, cause he says next generation chips, you know, the rumors that were going

00:57:46   around was that it might be, uh, uh, the smaller one might just be an M1 and in

00:57:50   the, in the spring and then that the other one would have a next generation

00:57:56   chip and be later on.

00:57:58   And I, I, that Gherman's report doesn't say that.

00:58:01   I'm a little surprised by that.

00:58:02   I would think that they would want to roll something out this spring, but maybe

00:58:05   not, maybe they've decided that the iMac also needs to wait and they'll do it,

00:58:08   uh, in a bunch.

00:58:10   I am very intrigued about this.

00:58:13   I'm very intrigued about timing.

00:58:15   Um, I don't think Mark gave timing for this.

00:58:19   It's just like this year.

00:58:20   Yeah.

00:58:21   The next generation chips is the thing that makes me think, are they going to

00:58:25   have a new variation on the M1 sooner than mid year?

00:58:29   And maybe they are, I would be a little surprised by that, but maybe, maybe so.

00:58:35   And it will be interesting, I think, to see what the sizes are, because it

00:58:41   doesn't say about the sizes, like, will they say 21 and 27 or will it go to like

00:58:45   23 and 30 or something, which we've seen rumors suggesting.

00:58:49   Um, and you know, we spoke about wanting to have face ID and stuff that's not in

00:58:54   here, but it doesn't mean it's not happening.

00:58:56   Right.

00:58:56   Um, at the very least, there has to be a better webcam in all of these products.

00:59:01   Honestly, Apple will get eviscerated.

00:59:05   If they don't do that.

00:59:06   Uh, this is, but as exciting as all that is, it's not the most exciting thing that

00:59:11   was in this article, a pair of new Mac pros, a pair, a pair of Mac, new, new in

00:59:19   quotes.

00:59:19   One of these Mac pros is going to be a direct update to the current Mac pro same

00:59:26   design and get this potentially still using an Intel processor.

00:59:31   Yeah.

00:59:32   I'm not sure this is what I would call new.

00:59:34   I think this is Gurman saying they may just update.

00:59:37   They may do an Intel update on the Mac pro that currently exists, which I kinda,

00:59:45   I kinda understand why, like it allows them to keep selling this Mac pro that has

00:59:52   the Intel stuff and that has expansion cards and all the things we know to the

00:59:55   people who have a bunch of them and they're, they're institutional or they're

01:00:00   high-end clients and they've got lots of cards and you know, lots of very specific

01:00:04   needs and they aren't going to go off of Intel anytime soon.

01:00:07   So it kind of makes sense to keep it kicking around to do an update on it would

01:00:14   be surprising to me, but they could do it.

01:00:17   I guess if Intel has better processors, they could put them in there.

01:00:21   Are there new Zions?

01:00:22   I don't even know, but they could do that.

01:00:24   Or they could just keep it kicking around sort of as it is.

01:00:28   And that would be another way to go.

01:00:29   Just keep it kicking around.

01:00:31   I think it's interesting that he says potentially still using an Intel processor,

01:00:33   which also makes me wonder, are they planning to update the Mac pro with Apple

01:00:38   Silicon in the long run, but in the short run, they may do another, you know,

01:00:42   Intel update or not.

01:00:43   This is, this is unclear to me about whether the Mac pro full-size Mac pro is

01:00:48   sticking around for the long run or not.

01:00:49   If it's going to get an Intel update or just kick around with Intel for a while

01:00:54   until it gets an Apple Silicon update, still a little mysterious to me.

01:00:58   And I think this is very intriguing.

01:01:01   I could imagine it being a case of you say, as you say, if just like making the

01:01:06   current customers of the Mac pro feel a bit more comfortable too, like, don't

01:01:10   worry, like we're keeping this one around, uh, this, and this will be the very

01:01:15   last product that will update if they do have a actually update this one, but it

01:01:19   will, they'll leave it for like the full two year that they said they would, that

01:01:23   it was a two year transition.

01:01:24   They'll leave that one for the longest, and this is the update that they always

01:01:27   would have done to this Mac pro of like, all right, we have some new stuff to put

01:01:31   in here.

01:01:31   So we're going to do that.

01:01:32   Um, but like, you know, making it pretty clear, I reckon if they do this at the

01:01:37   same time that they do this other one, that this is probably going to be the

01:01:40   last one, but if you still need it, this is available to you.

01:01:45   Um, but it's like just a.

01:01:47   This is why the trash can Mac pro stayed on the price list so long.

01:01:53   It may be why the iMac pro stays on the price list for a while, right?

01:01:57   They could do that.

01:01:58   And it really is like, we don't want you to buy this, but you, cause they, they're

01:02:04   going to have people who don't want to go to apple silicon because there's a very

01:02:09   specific reason why they can't, or they won't because they want to stay, stay

01:02:13   back and they want to be, you know, all their computers are the same.

01:02:17   And in two years we'll buy apple silicon, but not yet.

01:02:19   Like I get it.

01:02:21   I get that they would do that.

01:02:22   And Mac pro is a very particular kind of high-end user that just wants it the way

01:02:29   they want it.

01:02:30   That's fine.

01:02:31   I get it.

01:02:31   Now the next one is a half sized Mac pro.

01:02:40   So it's similar design, half the size, apparently being called reminiscent at

01:02:47   the G four cube, still made of aluminium.

01:02:52   This is, I guess it's the mini tower.

01:02:56   I guess this is the Mac pro you would make if you were making all of the

01:03:03   internals yourself, I suppose.

01:03:06   I don't really know what this computer means to be honest.

01:03:09   Towers back in the day, mini towers, the whole idea there was that not everybody

01:03:13   needs to have a giant space full of cards and that you could slim it down and

01:03:17   create a smaller model that's cheaper, that has some expansion in it, but is

01:03:22   not, uh, you know, not the huge one like that.

01:03:26   That was a common product for a very long time on the Mac.

01:03:29   Idea is very popular in PCs.

01:03:33   My next PC that I'm building is a smaller form factor that I can put on my desk.

01:03:37   I don't have to put under my desk.

01:03:38   Exactly.

01:03:39   You don't, you don't need, a lot of people don't need, you know, a whole big

01:03:42   stack of cards, but they want like a card.

01:03:45   They want their video card in there or whatever they need, or they want more

01:03:49   internal storage, but they don't need the whole giant thing.

01:03:52   Apple has resisted this product for a very long time.

01:03:57   There hasn't been a product like this available for a long time.

01:04:03   Would you count the trashcan Mac pro?

01:04:07   No, cause it wasn't expandable.

01:04:09   Ah, well, there's nothing to suggest that this is expandable either.

01:04:14   Well, but it's a Mac pro.

01:04:17   So I would think that maybe it is to a certain degree, but maybe not.

01:04:21   In which case, I don't know what this is.

01:04:23   Then it is G4 cube.

01:04:24   The thing I was going to say is there is nothing that suggests that this is a Mac

01:04:28   pro right now.

01:04:29   M2 cube.

01:04:31   Well, except that he says that it's a Mac pro.

01:04:33   His report says it's a Mac pro.

01:04:35   Well, they're thinking of it as a Mac pro.

01:04:37   That's what Mark Gurman has said.

01:04:38   Yes.

01:04:38   Yeah.

01:04:39   So if we're going to take him on, I feel like that there is weight in this being described

01:04:45   as a Mac pro and not as a different system.

01:04:47   Yeah.

01:04:47   Yeah.

01:04:48   Um, a half height Mac pro and not, and that, that may be how it's pitched internally is

01:04:53   that even though it's a mini tower, you know, we don't think this is a mainstream system

01:04:56   and it's going to be very expensive, but it'll be cheaper than the Mac pro.

01:04:59   And it's for all those people.

01:05:00   We know all of us, all of us who are like, well, I'd love a pro system, but the Mac pro

01:05:05   is a bridge too far.

01:05:08   Do you imagine they would, they would have a product and call it the Mac pro mini?

01:05:11   Like, what is this?

01:05:13   Yeah, unless the, the new Mac pro becomes the Mac pro max.

01:05:19   Oh my God.

01:05:21   Do you, can Apple break the curse of small Macs?

01:05:26   I don't know.

01:05:29   I don't know.

01:05:29   Is there, is there room for this product?

01:05:31   Is there an audience for this product?

01:05:33   I don't know.

01:05:34   The G4 Cube, beautiful, failed.

01:05:37   Trash can Mac pro beautiful failed.

01:05:42   Yeah.

01:05:42   Mac mini successful product, but like what makes this different than a Mac mini?

01:05:46   Was the G4 Cube considered a professional grade product?

01:05:50   Power Mac G4 Cube.

01:05:53   Yes.

01:05:54   Right.

01:05:54   So we'll say that that is the, this is essentially a pro Mac.

01:05:59   The Mac pro was a pro Mac.

01:06:02   This would be a pro Mac.

01:06:04   And they have third time's a charm.

01:06:07   But they used to do these products all the time.

01:06:10   I, I, I think it's an interesting idea.

01:06:13   It's pitched that it's a Mac pro.

01:06:15   Um, it is the thing that all the, I don't know.

01:06:20   I, I I'm fascinated by this because they've resisted this idea for so long, but then again,

01:06:26   they seem to be undoing a lot of the assumptions that they made over the last decade.

01:06:30   I wonder about this too, a pair of new Mac pros report in general, like, is this a Mac

01:06:35   pro?

01:06:35   Cause he says it is, is the old Mac pro going to be replaced by this eventually, but not

01:06:43   yet.

01:06:43   In which case is this the new Mac pro or I don't, I don't know.

01:06:49   Is the old Mac pro going to be replaced with an Apple Silicon version of its current form?

01:06:57   It's all out there, right?

01:06:59   That's the question.

01:07:01   I, you know, as an old school Mac user, I like this idea.

01:07:05   And I know that there are a bunch of people who are super into the Mac and they use it

01:07:11   and they're power users and they have all migrated from what they used to use, which

01:07:16   was power max to IMAX because IMAX are pretty powerful.

01:07:19   And the, the Mac pro became so expensive and so high end that it was ridiculous for most

01:07:28   use.

01:07:29   I look at this product and I think that's the kind of product I would buy.

01:07:33   That's the kind of product where it's like, I want the power, but I'm not going to buy

01:07:40   the Mac pro because it's overkill.

01:07:43   It's too much, but this one it's intriguing.

01:07:47   Also intriguing because I could open it up and put more storage in it.

01:07:50   Possibly I would be able to buy presumably a really nice monitor.

01:07:54   And then if I wanted to replace the computer, I could just use that same monitor again.

01:07:58   If only Myke, if only Apple made a monitor that was more affordable than the pro display

01:08:05   XDR, this product would be perfect for it.

01:08:07   What?

01:08:07   Focused on consumer use to be sold alongside the new iMac and new iMac pro.

01:08:14   Can I just say, I predicted this in my predictions column, I predicted this and you were like,

01:08:21   Oh, I don't know, Jason.

01:08:22   Then again, he isn't, he says they're beginning to work on it.

01:08:25   So it may not actually happen in 2021, but I think it's interesting that Mark Gurman is

01:08:30   reporting that Apple is finally working on making a consumer level monitor, which I don't

01:08:37   know why it doesn't already exist.

01:08:38   I've ranted about here before, so I won't rant about it again, other than to say, you've

01:08:42   got these laptops that can drive big, beautiful screens.

01:08:45   You've got the Mac mini that can drive a big, beautiful screen.

01:08:47   You've got the Mac pro, but not everybody who wants the Mac pro wants is doing needs

01:08:53   a pro display XDR.

01:08:55   Why is there not another option?

01:08:57   And it sounds like finally, once again, backtracking on something that was decided a few years

01:09:04   ago about Apple and the Mac, which was, they weren't going to make monitors anymore.

01:09:08   And then they made the pro display XDR, but just that one, they seem to have finally said,

01:09:13   yeah, okay.

01:09:14   Well, all right, we'll make you a nice monitor.

01:09:18   And my, my guess is that it will be like a really nice iMac, except it'll just be a monitor.

01:09:24   Yeah.

01:09:25   It's like, that'll be it.

01:09:25   The iMac is going to look like the pro display, which is just a monitor.

01:09:30   So the monitor is just going to look like the new iMac, the monitor, the basic, the

01:09:32   monitor will be a new iMac with no computer in it.

01:09:35   Not going to make different panels.

01:09:37   It's going to be the same panel.

01:09:38   And I would imagine it'd just be thinner, I guess.

01:09:41   Yeah.

01:09:42   And maybe they'll be do two models for the two panels that are in the two different sizes.

01:09:46   And I will tell you right now.

01:09:49   Great.

01:09:49   I'll buy it.

01:09:51   Small Mac pro very exciting to me as the replacement for my iMac pro.

01:09:59   I have been assuming all along that what I would end up with is just an iMac.

01:10:03   Me too.

01:10:04   But I see this report and I think, oh, maybe a desktop Apple Silicon pro Mac with a nice

01:10:16   Apple monitor is where I'll end up.

01:10:19   I don't know.

01:10:19   I, I feel like in the, the, the sphere of podcasters and writers and listeners to Mac

01:10:25   podcasts and all that, like if this is what we think it might be, which again, there's

01:10:30   wish casting there.

01:10:31   It probably will disappoint us in some way, such as the way of the world.

01:10:33   But this seems like what a huge cross section of our audience has been asking for for a

01:10:39   decade.

01:10:39   So I hope so.

01:10:42   All I hope is there isn't a long time between the new iMacs and this.

01:10:48   Well, that's the thing, right?

01:10:50   Yeah.

01:10:53   Yeah.

01:10:53   I think, I think the truth is I'm going to buy like an awesome iMac and then six months

01:10:57   later, this will come out and they'll be like, oh, I got to sell this iMac.

01:11:01   Cause I don't even, I don't even want to think about the fact that I bought the 13 inch MacBook

01:11:05   pro because of that 14 inch MacBook pro.

01:11:09   Oh, right.

01:11:10   Yeah.

01:11:11   That's already enough.

01:11:12   That's why I'm happy that I bought my 9 99 MacBook air.

01:11:16   It's like, I got it.

01:11:17   I got it.

01:11:17   It's fine.

01:11:18   I'm confident the resale value of this MacBook pro though.

01:11:20   Like, uh, you know, I don't, I think I'll only have to pay a few hundred dollars to,

01:11:25   to get the new one really like indifference.

01:11:27   Um, but yeah, it will, it will hurt if these new iMacs come out and they're really incredible

01:11:35   as you'd imagine, look really good.

01:11:37   And then it's like, do I get one of these and hope that the little Mac pro isn't what

01:11:44   I want it to be?

01:11:45   Like, you know, like that's gonna, Ooh, that's gonna, that's gonna be a few months of conversation.

01:11:48   Oh, Jason, I'm so excited about the Mac.

01:11:53   Who would have thought it?

01:11:54   Yeah.

01:11:55   It's really funny that these reports that are kind of about like Apple going back to

01:12:00   basics with some decisions that they are undoing ends up being exciting.

01:12:04   Um, and, and maybe some new products that are reminiscent of back in the, back in the day

01:12:09   kind of products.

01:12:10   I think what it says is if these Gurman reports are true and Mark Gurman's track record is

01:12:14   very good.

01:12:15   What it says is whoever has their hand at the, on the wheel of where the Mac is going.

01:12:22   And again, this has probably been for a while and we're only now kind of seeing that it's

01:12:26   coming to fruition, but like clearly this wasn't just a, Oh yes, we're going to pay

01:12:30   attention to the Mac.

01:12:32   Clearly this was, uh, whoever has their hand on the wheel is like put in reverse, like

01:12:38   we said, and get on the, get on the road, like realizing that they needed to back up,

01:12:44   undo some mistakes and then, you know, peel out and floor it, go to new places.

01:12:52   It's very exciting.

01:12:53   The thing for me is though, is it's not necessarily so much the detail of the changes.

01:13:01   It's that there's so many things happening.

01:13:04   That's what excites me more.

01:13:06   Like we can talk about the detail and forever, right?

01:13:10   But I don't remember a time when I've been able to like, let me fill up an entire episode

01:13:15   of upgrade with announced potential announcement for new Mac hardware.

01:13:19   That's like that we're talking about excitedly.

01:13:22   And that we're excited about.

01:13:23   And not just like, Oh man, are they really not going to put the keyboard in this one?

01:13:27   I think that's a side effect of the whole thing of, you know, what I was saying about

01:13:35   the kind of malaise of the mid decade Mac, right?

01:13:39   Where it was just like, everything was just kind of like, you know, whatever.

01:13:43   There was excitement elsewhere in Apple.

01:13:45   And I'm not saying they were lazy.

01:13:46   I'm saying they were, their focus was somewhere else.

01:13:48   And they, I really believe they thought that Mac was going to be just sort of like kept

01:13:53   going as it was.

01:13:55   And then at some point they said, no, let's, no, we're not going to do that.

01:13:58   We're going to, we're going to put effort into the Mac.

01:14:02   Like we put it into the iPad.

01:14:03   And, um, this is that happening.

01:14:06   This is another step there.

01:14:08   The M1 Macs were a good step.

01:14:12   The Mac Pro was a good step.

01:14:13   This is another step in, in what I would say is the right direction, even if it is sort

01:14:17   of a step back and then a pivot and then a step forward.

01:14:20   >> Upgradients, if you no longer want to hear ads on this very program, whilst also getting

01:14:26   extra bonus upgrade content, you should sign up for upgrade plus it's just $5 a month.

01:14:33   Or $50 a year.

01:14:34   And you'll get tons of other benefits for being a relay FM member like annual bonus

01:14:39   crossover shows, including the text adventures that we do with C2PGray every year.

01:14:43   Extra monthly shows like backstage and fusion access to the relay FM members,

01:14:48   discord, and so much more.

01:14:50   Just go to getupgradeplus.com to sign up.

01:14:53   We love making the additional content for upgrade plus subscribers.

01:14:57   We get to share some interesting stories, talk about what's going on behind the scenes

01:15:01   of the show, and we get deep into some nerdy topics.

01:15:04   Like for example, in today's upgrade plus segment, you will get to hear how Jason was

01:15:11   able to watch 3D movies at home with hardware he already owns.

01:15:16   >> And here's my tease, which is the Microsoft Surface Go on my desk says that it's got three

01:15:27   hours to go.

01:15:28   What?

01:15:29   >> What could it mean?

01:15:31   Go to getupgradeplus.com right now.

01:15:35   You can sign up to become a member, support the show, and you can find out exactly what

01:15:40   that is all about.

01:15:40   Thank you so much if you check it out.

01:15:43   We really appreciate it.

01:15:44   Let's finish off today's episode with some hashtag #askupgrade questions.

01:15:50   Jerry asks, how many of your podcasts are video calls versus audio calls when you're

01:15:56   recording them?

01:15:56   >> None.

01:15:58   >> What about TPK?

01:15:59   >> Well, so the footnote is if there's a video version, it's a video call, otherwise it's

01:16:08   not.

01:16:08   So total party kill, where we play Dungeons and Dragons on the internet for your amusement,

01:16:13   that's a video call because you see our faces and you see the map.

01:16:17   And we have to see the map to see where our characters are and stuff like that and move

01:16:21   around and stuff.

01:16:22   But I realized that it was confusing.

01:16:25   I mean, a lot of people just listen to the audio version.

01:16:28   Most people, I think, listen to the audio version, and it's fine.

01:16:30   It's theater of the mind.

01:16:31   We try not to do it.

01:16:32   But I realized showing us and the map would be kind of a fun video version.

01:16:38   So we do that on video.

01:16:40   That's it.

01:16:41   Everything else we do, like upgrade, there's no video.

01:16:45   And I think, and Myke has talked about this before, he'll back me up here, I think it's

01:16:50   super important that you don't do video because not only is it distracting, but you end up

01:16:55   communicating things visually and the listeners can't see you.

01:17:01   So you communicate things visually and they're lost on the listenership.

01:17:06   So I think the quality of the conversation goes down because you're no longer having

01:17:11   an audio conversation.

01:17:13   That is all that the podcast listener gets.

01:17:15   You're having this video conversation that the podcast listeners are missing.

01:17:19   So none other than the TPK, where we also do a video version, none of the podcasts I do

01:17:24   have video.

01:17:25   Exactly.

01:17:27   Tim asks, would you use a waterproof HomePod mini shower edition?

01:17:33   No.

01:17:37   No.

01:17:38   I have a Bluetooth speaker that I use in the shower and it's fine.

01:17:43   I guess, I don't think I need voice control in the shower or anything like that.

01:17:51   My little suction cup thing works fine and yeah, I don't think I would.

01:17:59   It's possible, but I think that's an unnecessary thing.

01:18:03   Also, it's going to be battery operated and I'm going to have to charge it and stuff like

01:18:06   that because I don't have, you know, I'm not going to, there's nothing to plug in in the

01:18:09   shower.

01:18:09   That would be very dangerous.

01:18:10   So my phone's waterproof and the speakers are loud enough that works just for me.

01:18:16   Honestly, my iPhone, I pop it.

01:18:18   Well, I'm not, it's not in a case, you know, the one that I'm using right now, like you

01:18:22   can just, I just take it in the shower.

01:18:24   In fact, when my Bluetooth speaker starts beeping every 30 seconds to tell me that it's

01:18:29   running out of battery, which I hate so much, I just turn it off and bring my phone in the

01:18:35   shower and put it down.

01:18:37   So it's reflecting against the wall and it's fine.

01:18:40   Ian asks, what are your favorite mouse alternatives when working?

01:18:46   I'm a video editor and love my MX master three, but really need an alternative like a trackball

01:18:51   or a stylus.

01:18:52   Since I started noticing some wrist forearm strain over the past week or so.

01:18:56   Do you have any recommend?

01:18:58   It's all made great.

01:18:59   One, I use a Magic Trackpad and that's it.

01:19:02   Get a Magic Trackpad.

01:19:03   And this is my, it's my favorite thing that I love.

01:19:07   Put it on the other side of your desk and you can use one hand for zooming and panning

01:19:11   and then the other hand for your mouse or your whatever you're using for more fine motor

01:19:15   control.

01:19:15   So you're using both hands that will help reduce the amount of strain you're putting

01:19:20   on one arm.

01:19:21   If you're looking for other like mouse like products, you said you like MX master three

01:19:28   from Logitech.

01:19:29   Logitech also make a trackball mouse called the MX master Ergo, which you might like.

01:19:34   It's got a lot of the features that the MX master three has not all, but there's enough

01:19:39   and it's nice.

01:19:40   It has some tilting that you can do it too and do not sleep on getting a Wacom tablet.

01:19:47   I use a Wacom Intuos Pro.

01:19:49   It takes a while to get used to this because it's a completely different way of doing

01:19:54   things.

01:19:54   But I have found without a shadow of a doubt, the thing that is makes my life so much easier

01:20:01   is using a Wacom tablet because it's much more comfortable.

01:20:06   You're holding a pen in your hand, which you're really used to doing.

01:20:09   I really, really, really recommend looking into getting one of these.

01:20:13   I find it to be a much nicer experience.

01:20:17   Make sure that you select the screen area as full and tablet area as full.

01:20:23   And this basically means that when you're on the top left of the tablet, you're on the

01:20:31   top left of the Mac screen, bottom right, you're on the bottom right of the Mac screen

01:20:34   and you move your arm and it moves like the cursor exactly where you want it to be.

01:20:39   They do this thing where they try and scale it by default.

01:20:42   Don't do that.

01:20:43   But trust me, Wacom is the way to go because you can especially, I mean, especially good

01:20:50   for me because I'm left handed with using a pen and right handed of using a mouse.

01:20:55   So great.

01:20:57   But otherwise, just get a trackpad, put it on the other side.

01:20:59   Really good.

01:21:00   I use the medium Wacom Intuos Pro.

01:21:04   Really, really thoroughly recommend.

01:21:06   Take some practice, but I've gotten a few people on this train with me over the years.

01:21:11   CGP Grey got me on this train and I have convinced others.

01:21:14   And I typically have only ever heard good things from people.

01:21:18   It really, really can help a lot because it's a completely different arm movement as well

01:21:23   than the mouse because you kind of move your entire arm, which you don't really do with

01:21:27   the mouse or over trackpad.

01:21:29   You tend to just move your wrist and your forearm a lot more.

01:21:31   Really thoroughly recommended.

01:21:33   John says, I held out a year for the M1s like the Apple Silicon Macs, but they cannot support

01:21:43   two external displays, which is a huge disappointment for me and something I really want to be able

01:21:47   to do.

01:21:48   Do I grab the last Intel MacBook Air or hold out longer for Macs that can handle this?

01:21:53   I'm invested in a dock or monitors and need it to run logic occasionally.

01:21:59   I'd say keep holding out because we just talked about new MacBook Pros.

01:22:03   I bet they can do it.

01:22:04   I bet money that they will support more monitors.

01:22:07   Yeah, I wouldn't buy an Intel Mac now.

01:22:10   I would keep waiting.

01:22:11   You maybe only need to wait six more months.

01:22:13   I'm in complete agreement with Jason.

01:22:16   I bet those new MacBook Pros can do it.

01:22:18   I would say if you're really desperate, what I would do is I would, if you're desperate,

01:22:22   I would buy an M1.

01:22:26   And I think there's some ways you can bridge with a USB adapter to display port and support

01:22:34   two external monitors.

01:22:35   It's probably going to be hinky, but you could probably do it.

01:22:40   And then because it's an Apple Silicon Mac, it'll probably hold its value pretty decently

01:22:46   and you would just sell that and buy it.

01:22:47   But if you can just wait, I just wait, just wait because we have on good authority friend

01:22:52   of the show, Mark Gurman, that mid year there'll be MacBook Pros and those I would I can't

01:23:00   believe that they'll have the limitations of the current models.

01:23:03   So I would wait if you can.

01:23:05   Sarah in the Discord just put a link to a workaround, which I'll put in the show notes

01:23:11   in case you want to try out for yourself.

01:23:13   There are ways to do it.

01:23:15   You could also like get a Mac Mini and hook it up an M1 Mac Mini, but the same deal where

01:23:20   you'd end up selling it and getting if you are desperate, that would be the way to go.

01:23:25   Steve asks, do you frequently use message effects in messages on iOS?

01:23:31   And how do you feel about this feature?

01:23:34   I don't.

01:23:37   I did have someone do you I had somebody say happy new year to me in text the other day

01:23:44   and we laughed because then it's all the fireworks.

01:23:47   Yeah, it's very exciting.

01:23:49   I use tap backs a lot.

01:23:51   I don't use the message effects so much, but I use tap backs all the time.

01:23:54   And I think I'm on record as saying that I wish there were more tap backs or that I could

01:23:58   tap back with any emoji.

01:24:00   But I do use tap backs all the time.

01:24:02   So I would love there to be an emoji option for tap back.

01:24:06   You could just press it and select whatever like you can get emoji reactions in Discord

01:24:10   and Slack or whatever.

01:24:11   Similarly to the tap backs, there should be more.

01:24:14   They should have added more message effects.

01:24:16   I only ever added one more, I think, which is called celebration.

01:24:18   I really like them.

01:24:20   I use the lasers one.

01:24:21   I use the spinning word tornado thing all the time.

01:24:25   I do want to just say one thing in case people don't know.

01:24:28   I saw this on Twitter a while ago, and it's amazing that it messages on the Mac.

01:24:31   There's a keyboard shortcut for the tap backs.

01:24:34   Yeah, command T.

01:24:36   And then you just do one, two, three, four or five.

01:24:38   Really great.

01:24:39   Like I I'm so happy to find that because doing the right click and selecting it kind of sucks.

01:24:45   On the Mac.

01:24:47   Jason just sent me a message with lasers.

01:24:49   And now that I am using Mac OS Big Sur on my Mac Pro, which I upgraded to, I can now

01:24:55   see it happening.

01:24:56   Messages was one of the reasons that I upgraded my Mac Pro.

01:24:59   So I really wanted to get the full experience.

01:25:03   If you would like to send in a question to help us close out an episode of upgrade, if

01:25:08   you've got something that you think we can help you with, just send out a tweet with

01:25:11   the hashtag Ask upgrade or use question mark Ask upgrade in the Relay FM members Discord,

01:25:17   which you can become a member and support the show at get upgrade plus dot com.

01:25:20   Thank you if you do.

01:25:21   Thank you so much to our sponsors, which are Devon Technologies and Hover.

01:25:25   If this week's episode, if you want to find Jason online, you can go to sixcolors.com

01:25:30   and he is at Jason L. J S N E double L.

01:25:33   I am at I'm like I am Y K E.

01:25:35   You can find this show and many more over at relay.fm.

01:25:41   I'm sure that there is another program for you.

01:25:43   If you don't listen to if you're I bet you can find another one.

01:25:46   You got to relay.fm/shows.

01:25:48   I bet you can find something else in there that you're going to enjoy.

01:25:50   Thanks so much for listening to episode 335 of upgrade and we'll be back next time.

01:25:57   Until then, say goodbye to yourself.

01:25:59   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.