319: I'm Gonna Drive My Ferrari Into the Sunset


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 319. Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace, KiwiCo and SaneBox.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr Jason Snow. Hi Jason.

00:00:22   Hi Myke, how are you?

00:00:23   I am very good my friend, very good indeed. And I have a #snowtalk question to open this week's episode that comes from Marlies,

00:00:29   who asks, "Do you always hit the lock button before you put your phone away?"

00:00:34   Yes.

00:00:37   Yeah, I feel like I do this too.

00:00:40   I tried to not do this when I was in the store the other day because of masks.

00:00:44   Oh, because then you have to unlock.

00:00:46   Because then I have to unlock it. I can't do it. I can't do it.

00:00:49   Can I ask a more personal question?

00:00:52   Oh no. Well, I mean, just the other than the sheer terror of not unlocking your phone and then like,

00:00:57   do you put it back in your pocket and it receives touches there or you have to lay it down somewhere?

00:01:01   Now you have an unlocked phone that's unguarded that's just laying on the, you know, on the trolley on the shopping cart.

00:01:07   Like, okay, sure. Anyway, no is the answer to that.

00:01:10   How complicated is your pin?

00:01:13   So it was an alphanumeric pin and then at some point I shifted it back to numbers for mask unlock.

00:01:22   And then I decided that I hated that it was numbers and I went back to my alphanumeric pin.

00:01:28   So you have a quite complicated one, huh?

00:01:31   I mean, are you trying to hack me now?

00:01:33   It is.

00:01:33   This is why it's private.

00:01:34   I mean, I'll say like I have a four-digit pin.

00:01:39   I know that that's bad for so many reasons.

00:01:41   Well, that's the thing is I shifted to that and then I decided I couldn't bear it.

00:01:46   And so I went back to the other.

00:01:47   If I was let me let me just say if I was out in public with my phone and a mask all the time.

00:01:55   There's no way I could keep the pin that I've got I would have to go to a four-digit pin because it would drive me bananas,

00:02:01   but I am, you know, a hermit so I don't have to do that generally.

00:02:08   Yeah, I I really want touch ID.

00:02:12   I really want that today, but I do I do lock my phone always before I put it away.

00:02:17   And I also am very I think the stitches is the right word here to make sure that my phone is on the first home screen before I lock it.

00:02:28   So whenever I put my phone down, I always want it to be back to home page one before I lock it.

00:02:37   That's that that is interesting.

00:02:39   That's that reminds me of my mom back when she had a laptop now.

00:02:43   She just has an iPad but back when she would have a laptop before she would put it to sleep or shut it down.

00:02:49   She would close all the windows in the finder.

00:02:52   And I always thought like that to keep like dust from getting in the windows or something.

00:02:58   I don't understand why you're doing that and I'd say it's a similar thing.

00:03:01   I know I get it.

00:03:02   You probably want it to be nice and clean and fresh and open to the first screen

00:03:06   and not have one of those moments where you open it up and you're like who got in here?

00:03:10   Why is this all messed up?

00:03:11   You like you want it the way I don't know if there is a reason

00:03:14   but now it's just one of those things that I can't stop myself from doing you know,

00:03:18   you could get dust in those other screens.

00:03:20   You really got to keep them out of there for just you only want to wipe down the one home screen,

00:03:25   which is imagine the horror you on the second screen.

00:03:28   What am I going to do?

00:03:28   Where are my apps?

00:03:29   Yeah.

00:03:30   Yeah, you unlock and you're like, oh how disappointing.

00:03:33   Oh, right.

00:03:33   There are better apps.

00:03:34   It's over here.

00:03:37   Thank you so much to Marlies for sending in that question which spurred many other questions.

00:03:40   If you would like to send in something to help us open a future episode of the show,

00:03:44   send out a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk

00:03:46   or use command question mark snow talk in the relay FM members discord.

00:03:52   We have an exciting production note.

00:03:54   Oh, this is this is about as exciting a production note as it as they get

00:03:58   because most production notes not exciting.

00:04:01   But this one I'm very excited about this.

00:04:03   So on the next episode of upgrade we're going to be joined by Tim Millett

00:04:07   who is the vice president of platform architecture at Apple

00:04:10   who was featured in the keynote two weeks ago talking about the A14

00:04:14   and Tom Boger who is Apple's senior director of Mac and iPad product marketing.

00:04:19   So that's going to be on our next episode.

00:04:21   We're going to be talking to them about a bunch of things.

00:04:24   So the A14 bionic, the new iPad air and Apple silicon.

00:04:29   So they're kind of the the things that they are the topics of discussion.

00:04:34   But here's what we're going to do something we haven't been able to do before.

00:04:37   We want your questions.

00:04:39   It's usually our Apple interviews that we do are like surprise.

00:04:42   There's a new product.

00:04:43   Here's an Apple interview and this time we know about the product hasn't has a ship yet,

00:04:48   but we know about the product but we're giving you warning that it's coming

00:04:54   and that means we can do something we've never done before with an Apple interview,

00:04:59   which is to ask your questions.

00:05:01   So you can send in questions as you always do by using hashtag ask upgrade or question mark ask upgrade

00:05:07   in the relay FM members discord and we'll be able to get some answer during the show.

00:05:12   You don't need to preface it in any way.

00:05:14   We'll know what they're about just just ask the questions about those topics.

00:05:18   So things are going to be talking about the A14 bionic the new iPad air and Apple silicon as well.

00:05:24   So that's going to be on our very next episode episode.

00:05:30   So some follow-up for you Microsoft have begun beta testing via test flight their trackpad support for word and Excel.

00:05:37   So this feels like a million years ago that the magic trackpad was announced,

00:05:43   but it was March of this year and at the time a lot has happened.

00:05:47   Yeah, it had started to happen at that point.

00:05:51   It had started to happen now. It's a lot more has happened.

00:05:55   But so this is something that Microsoft promised in the fall that they would be releasing word and Excel support for the trackpad.

00:06:05   So I'm excited to try this out.

00:06:06   But really I just want it to be in Google Docs and Google sheets.

00:06:10   They did just add dark mode to Docs and sheets.

00:06:13   So maybe next March we'll get if we're lucky support for honestly,

00:06:22   like this feels more important as a feature to me than dark mode

00:06:26   and multi window for something like sheets and Docs like being able to actually do good text selection.

00:06:34   But yeah, you know, this is the problem.

00:06:37   And the reason it took Microsoft this long the reason Google haven't done it and they might do it.

00:06:40   I hope they'll do it is like both of these applications use their own text rendering engines.

00:06:45   So that's a lot of work right like Apple were able to do the work and they'd started to do the work.

00:06:51   Like remember iOS 13 came out and iPad OS 13 the text selection barely made any sense,

00:06:58   right what they've done to it like they made a bunch of changes

00:07:00   and it just was way worse which because it was laying the groundwork for the far superior support that would come with trackpads.

00:07:08   So Apple working on it for a long time.

00:07:10   It's going to take a long time for companies like Microsoft

00:07:13   and Google to implement it properly with their own rendering engines.

00:07:17   So so I looked at these this morning.

00:07:20   Yeah, and the word one looks pretty good.

00:07:24   I'm it's a good implementation and I've tried word on like the surface on Windows

00:07:31   and it's a little and this feels more natural than that.

00:07:36   The Excel implementation is pretty good.

00:07:40   But the thing I've noticed about it is that one thing that Microsoft at least hasn't done yet in their betas is custom cursors

00:07:49   and cursors are actually really important.

00:07:51   I think in Excel where you get like the crosshairs.

00:07:54   Yep, instead of just the round finger circle thing and they haven't implemented that yet.

00:07:59   So like when I'm when I'm mousing over the corner of a of a cell,

00:08:06   I don't get the cursor that I expect to see that I see on the Mac

00:08:10   and I think that that's probably something that they need to do.

00:08:13   But every time I use Excel on iPad like you I am reminded of how terrible Google sheets

00:08:23   and Google Docs are on the iPad.

00:08:25   Yep. It's a shame.

00:08:26   It's like they are the best at what they do in the sense of real-time collaboration,

00:08:30   but the applications are just bad.

00:08:32   They're real bad.

00:08:33   Yeah, you have reminded me of the WWDC sessions designed for the iPad OS pointer

00:08:38   and build for the iPad OS pointer.

00:08:40   So if you're if you're unfamiliar with what Jason's talking about custom cursors,

00:08:44   just go watch these sessions because super good.

00:08:47   They were so good and they really kind of gave a good foundation for what it takes to really implement the cursor well.

00:08:55   Yeah and developers don't need like the little dot the little circle that we see on iPad cursors is a default.

00:09:01   But like as a developer you can do a custom cursor whatever you want it to be like that's part of the beauty of the system

00:09:11   that they built is that you can you can build a custom cursor for certain states in your app

00:09:18   and I've seen some apps that do it and it makes sense

00:09:21   and they and they all kind of morph from one to the other like there's animations that happen and stuff that the system is doing.

00:09:27   But anyway, so that part's missing from Excel,

00:09:29   but I would imagine that they probably will add that at some point to make it feel more like more like more like Excel more like real Excel.

00:09:40   Apple is reportedly working with both Sony and Microsoft to get Apple TV the Apple TV app

00:09:47   and all of its TV Plus content onto the next generation of games consoles.

00:09:51   So the Xbox Series X and S and the PlayStation 5 there is also according to some sources the possibility

00:09:58   that there could be homekit support for the consoles added as well,

00:10:01   which I would really like now this is you know,

00:10:04   this makes sense because we've seen Apple do this right they want to be on all of the popular streaming platforms

00:10:11   and the games consoles are legit like,

00:10:14   you know, like you see Netflix and all these kinds of video streaming apps on the consoles

00:10:18   because for a lot of people they do become like a good home theater type thing,

00:10:25   right and especially the PlayStation because it's also a Blu-ray player,

00:10:29   right? So lots of people as well as wanting the games console functionality also use these as home entertainment devices.

00:10:36   But here's my question. I wonder if this deal could do for Microsoft.

00:10:43   What the Amazon deal did for Amazon which is could this open the door to actually make game streaming work the way that Microsoft

00:10:53   wanted to work and not the way the Apple want it to work.

00:10:58   I doubt it, but you never know. It's big companies.

00:11:01   This seems Apple seems to have put a stake in the ground that like this is just how it has to work.

00:11:06   My guess is that they'll find some other areas where they can work together

00:11:08   and there's probably a benefit to having Apple's entertainment stuff on Sony and Microsoft's consoles.

00:11:14   And you know, my guess is not my guess is it's more like what they already have which is in home streaming being supported

00:11:22   and allowed and maybe working better but out of home.

00:11:26   They seem to be putting you know,

00:11:27   their foot down and saying no we're not going to let you do this but something to watch

00:11:32   and I think it's interesting that Apple has remember when we used to debate would Apple TV+ be available anywhere,

00:11:37   but Apple Hardware and we thought probably but it was like a risky question.

00:11:41   And now very clearly Apple strategy is that they want that tech everywhere.

00:11:45   They really want Apple TV the app everywhere.

00:11:48   Plus they want AirPlay in as many places as they can put it.

00:11:53   Plus they seem to be thinking of HomeKit being able to run,

00:11:58   you know, I assume like a little mini HomeKit server on devices as a thing that they want to move out.

00:12:03   So what a change in approach.

00:12:06   I know they've got new people in charge of the home stuff,

00:12:09   especially in the last year or two,

00:12:11   but it's a real change from what kind of everybody thought Apple would probably do.

00:12:16   Yeah, that the TV division is run so differently to the way that so much of Apple has been run in the past,

00:12:23   you know, like every part of it,

00:12:25   right like the fact that there's no secrecy in that division,

00:12:29   right like the new projects are announced constantly without them having any say in the matter,

00:12:36   right like they are open like the platform is as open as they can possibly make it in the sense that they want to get it everywhere

00:12:43   and we'll do whatever it takes to do that.

00:12:46   It's very different. It is the right approach,

00:12:48   but it's just a very counter approach to the way that we usually see the way that Apple does things.

00:12:54   But this is them fitting into that world and doing it right.

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00:15:00   As it tends to happen, Jason, benchmarks for the new iPad Air,

00:15:06   which as of right now has not been released to the public,

00:15:09   have been found in Geekbench.

00:15:12   Who did that?

00:15:13   Can you explain a little bit about how this happens,

00:15:16   like from your perspective, like how does this occur?

00:15:19   So somebody out there has an iPad Air and it may even be somebody at Apple

00:15:22   or it could be somebody who's a reviewer, but I doubt it.

00:15:26   But somebody has one and there's Geekbench or it could be a fraud,

00:15:30   but let's just assume it's real because I think it generally is.

00:15:33   There are pre-production units that are out there

00:15:35   or in this case, maybe production but not released units

00:15:38   and you can run Geekbench scores

00:15:40   and you can submit them to the Geekbench database where they're browsable.

00:15:45   You don't have to, but you can.

00:15:47   And sometimes people do that accidentally.

00:15:51   Possibly, possibly true.

00:15:54   It's a little different from when they see browser logs on web servers

00:16:00   where the web server will, the browser will say,

00:16:03   like here's the version of software that I'm running

00:16:05   and it'll reveal, ha ha, the next version of Mac OS is now available inside Apple

00:16:10   because we found five instances of it in our browser logs.

00:16:14   This is, you actually need to submit the data to Geekbench,

00:16:17   but it does happen frequently

00:16:21   that in advance of a product being released,

00:16:24   you will see an unknown device ID from Apple come with some numbers.

00:16:30   And the suggestion in this case is that this particular iPad

00:16:36   that submitted these numbers seems almost certain to be the iPad Air.

00:16:41   And of course, this one is particularly interesting

00:16:46   because the A14 is the base for Apple Silicon chips for the Mac as well.

00:16:57   That is the expectation.

00:16:58   It's this A14 bionic chip is the benchmark, well not the benchmark,

00:17:02   so like the starting point for what we'll see in future iPads and iPad Pros,

00:17:07   in the next iPhones,

00:17:09   and also as the starting point for what we could see in the Mac.

00:17:13   That's why like all eyes have been on this.

00:17:14   Maybe you wrote that great post,

00:17:16   which we spoke about during our wonderful Outgrade episode

00:17:19   during the Summer of Fun, where we were in a lab talking about it.

00:17:23   Now the scores themselves is 1583 single core and 4198 multi-core.

00:17:30   That's the benchmark that has been found for the A14 bionic.

00:17:33   So I wanted to ask you, Jason,

00:17:35   how does this stack up against your previous expectations?

00:17:40   It's actually higher.

00:17:43   So I made a chart and we'll put a link in the show notes to an article

00:17:46   I did called Fun with Charts, entirely speculative charts about Apple Silicon.

00:17:51   I did some extrapolation based on the pace of speed boost from A10 to 11 to 12 to 13,

00:18:00   about what 14 would be.

00:18:02   And this number is higher than my admittedly conservative guess about

00:18:07   where Apple would go next.

00:18:08   These numbers are higher.

00:18:11   So that's good.

00:18:13   It suggests that Apple is more than keeping pace with itself from generation to generation.

00:18:20   I mean, that's again like you were extrapolating out.

00:18:25   I mean, that's kind of like not you're being realistic,

00:18:29   but the fact that it has achieved that is very promising.

00:18:33   So the A13 bionic scored in at 1336 and 3569.

00:18:40   So I wonder a little bit because we were talking about this after the announcement,

00:18:44   you know, the way that Apple kind of showed off the A14 is they made comparisons to the previous iPad,

00:18:50   not the A13 chip.

00:18:52   So they were comparing I think the A14 to the A12

00:18:55   because they were showing it off alongside the new iPad Air.

00:18:59   Exactly.

00:18:59   Do you think that Apple may have buried the lead a little on this chip?

00:19:05   Well, I mean in the sense that a dog buries a bone or a squirrel buries a nut.

00:19:14   Purposefully, right?

00:19:16   Like I think it's great that we're going to have some people from Apple on to talk about it.

00:19:19   I will tell you from conversations that I've had previously when they announced this thing that they are real on message

00:19:24   and they I everybody out there who wants to submit a question asking about a future product.

00:19:29   Good luck.

00:19:29   They're not going to answer that so we probably won't even ask it.

00:19:31   But they are focused on the iPad because I think that they're saving some of the powder for the iPhone, right?

00:19:37   I really believe that they want to have some A14 boasting when they launch the new iPhones

00:19:44   and they can't do that if they use all of that boasting on the iPad

00:19:51   and I don't think the iPad was meant to be a month before the iPhone.

00:19:55   I think it was meant to be simultaneous with the iPhone.

00:19:58   So there's more there's more to be done here.

00:20:01   We also don't know what an A14X or Z however,

00:20:05   they want to brand it.

00:20:06   iPad version of this would be.

00:20:10   Nor do we know whether there is a Mac configuration based on this same technology

00:20:16   and what it might look up look like but that was what my story was back a while ago back in July about the speculation based on this

00:20:27   and at that time I very immediately said wow a theoretical multi-core A14 version running on a Mac might actually be like faster than the fastest iMacs.

00:20:41   Which is really interesting for an Apple silicon Mac.

00:20:44   So it doesn't it's all speculation,

00:20:48   but at the same time like these numbers fit that speculation.

00:20:52   I think it shows that our speculation about all of this was not wild speculation and that Apple hasn't done.

00:21:00   You know, it could have been possible that the A14 came out and I was like,

00:21:02   well, it's okay, right?

00:21:04   It's fine, but it really isn't as continuing Apple's pace of speed boosts to these processors per generation and that's not the case.

00:21:16   So Steve Trouton Smith was tweeting about this over the weekend

00:21:21   and I had a couple of quotes from him that I thought were interesting to discuss.

00:21:25   One is I personally expect even the thinnest and lightest devices to be out almost all of the 2020 iMac lineup in performance

00:21:32   and push very close to the high-end i7 and i9.

00:21:36   So Steve is very optimistic based on this right based on these results of like,

00:21:41   well, this is just what this A14 chip is doing in an iPad Air and it's got these kinds of numbers.

00:21:49   So yeah, I think Steve is quite optimistic for what this could be like in a Mac and doing what we think is like,

00:21:56   even if they just go for the basic version which we're expecting,

00:21:59   you're like a MacBook or whatever that it could end up being much more powerful than most of the stuff that Apple's providing today.

00:22:08   I really enjoyed seeing Steve's Twitter thread about this because I felt like it was he was making the same kind of extrapolations that I was making as guesswork in July.

00:22:19   But making them based on that Geekbench score.

00:22:21   Yeah, and it's it's fun.

00:22:23   I mean Myke ever since the announcement in June about Apple Silicon.

00:22:31   I feel like it just keeps building like the anticipation and like my optimism my excitement for what they're going to be able to do just keeps growing like it's it's the more you see of this now.

00:22:47   Steve Tran Smith makes the point that we don't know the graphics story.

00:22:53   Yeah, because you know the A14 we don't I don't think we know a graphics score for the A14,

00:23:00   but of course the A14 X would have more graphics cores and a Mac would presumably have more graphics cores.

00:23:06   So we have to see like what that side of it is,

00:23:09   but it's just it's really interesting that that now when we think about this now that we see the A14 for the first time instead of saying,

00:23:21   oh, well, what does this mean for iPad performance in the future?

00:23:24   Now we say oh, what does this mean for iPad and Mac performance in the future?

00:23:29   Because I think the assumption is that whether they call it a 14 or m 14 or a 14 M or whatever they do or whether they brand it as something totally different.

00:23:39   That the next the Apple silicon Mac processors will probably be based on the A14 architecture in some way even if they don't name it that and this is these numbers if they're real not only are do they kind of match and slightly exceed kind of what you'd expect,

00:23:54   but they're really good. Like that's the other part of it is that they're really really good.

00:23:58   If you put this in a Mac because of the pace of Intel's speed boost,

00:24:04   it starts to look really good purely from a speed perspective and like leaving aside the fact that this also brings lots of energy savings,

00:24:12   which means better battery life for for laptops.

00:24:16   It's talking about the graphics Steve gives some numbers that are interesting.

00:24:19   So he says the Apple has to get from a 9000 or so metal compute score,

00:24:24   which is in the A12X.

00:24:27   That's like the chips that would have the previous chip say it's yeah,

00:24:32   the iPad Pro 2018 the seven core.

00:24:36   Yeah, that pro ways that the XO set though.

00:24:39   Well, the the the Z is this year's eight core.

00:24:44   Ah, yes,

00:24:44   the X is the previous seven core.

00:24:47   Yeah,

00:24:47   it's a little bit weaker on on graphics,

00:24:49   but still the point there is that that's about a 9000 score and the top and I Mac today has a 38,789 from a Radeon Pro 5500 XT.

00:25:00   So we look at the G at the single processor and multi processor and like wow Apple's got it in the bag.

00:25:05   But as Steve quite rightly points out the big wild card is graphics.

00:25:10   It is because we need to see like the the graphic scores the graphics power that a Mac can have up in the high end.

00:25:18   Not on like a low end laptop with integrated graphics is pretty far out of what we've seen from Apple.

00:25:28   And the thing that we really just don't know yet.

00:25:30   I mean,

00:25:30   we does you can have a theory on every side is what is the graphic story for now?

00:25:36   Do they just work with the existing cards like you will you still use AMD Radeon Pro in there

00:25:42   or will it be an Apple made graphics chip?

00:25:45   Right.

00:25:46   I think going into the future smart money would be on the fact that Apple will just have their own graphics.

00:25:51   Whether it's integrated into the a series

00:25:54   or they have a separate graphics chip that goes into these machines which is customizable or if they do continue,

00:26:01   you know,

00:26:01   that seems like the smart money in the future but in the in the near term they may want to have other options.

00:26:08   They might want to have multiple options if you know,

00:26:10   like being able to work with the existing cards for optimization reasons.

00:26:14   That's the thing we don't know the speculation that Steve Tran Smith makes is,

00:26:20   you know quadruple the cores and that may be it like the answer may be

00:26:24   that whenever they do release a higher-end Mac,

00:26:28   maybe not an initial release with lower-end models,

00:26:30   but if they release a higher-end Mac,

00:26:32   maybe that chip has an external graphics card.

00:26:35   Maybe that chip has 24 cores on its graphics on its GPU and it uses them dynamically and it only,

00:26:44   you know, really powers them when it absolutely needs to for heat reasons and power reasons,

00:26:50   but like they could do that.

00:26:51   They could build a high-end chip based on this that had 20 cores or 24 cores of graphics.

00:26:58   If they if they wanted to scale it up that way and it could scale pretty much that way in order to to make this work.

00:27:06   So that'll be kind of fascinating to see.

00:27:09   So we were talking about the A12Z before which is what's in the 2020 iPad Pro,

00:27:14   right and saying that it was very likely that it would still be faster.

00:27:18   It is but not by much and only in multi-core.

00:27:20   So the single core score was 1118 compared to 1583

00:27:25   and the multi-core score on the A12Z is 4564.

00:27:30   So 4564 compared to 4198.

00:27:34   So it's close.

00:27:36   Yeah, the you know, my extrapolation was that an A14X that scaled the way that the A from the A12 sort of the way that this again,

00:27:44   just trying to follow the line,

00:27:47   you know that A14X so just a or Z whatever you want to say,

00:27:51   but like a 7/8 core you more processor cores all of that stuff going into it would be faster than the 16 inch MacBook Pro

00:28:01   and with eight cores and would be just a little bit slower than that fastest iMac the 8 core iMac.

00:28:08   That's the iPad chip.

00:28:11   And that's what they've that, you know, the A14 scores don't do anything to make me think otherwise.

00:28:17   And then if you imagine a Mac chip that had more cores and more GPU cores to but more cores processor cores,

00:28:24   it wouldn't take that many more to make a Mac that's faster than the fastest iMac.

00:28:30   And that basically means that the only max it would be slower than it's fairly easy.

00:28:35   I think for a Mac based chip based on the A14 to be faster than anything except Apple's highest end.

00:28:42   Xeon based computers.

00:28:44   So basically the Mac Pro and the iMac Pro at the highest end,

00:28:49   which is amazing,

00:28:51   right? Like that's amazing that that's Apple reaching way higher up than I think any of us expected them to be able to at the beginning of this transition.

00:29:01   That's what they said to your transition.

00:29:02   We're like, well in a couple years, they'll be able to reach up there.

00:29:05   I think with this A14 generation,

00:29:07   if they want to, it depends on what they want to do in terms of a Mac focused processor based on this generation,

00:29:14   but depending on what they want to do, they have reach to make Macs that are faster.

00:29:19   They can make iMacs and laptops that are faster than any existing iMacs and laptops.

00:29:26   I've said this before and I'll say it again.

00:29:28   I think that's goal number one for the first Apple Silicon Macs.

00:29:32   They need to show that this is the right move and speed is an easy way to show it's the right move.

00:29:39   You know, everything else is beneficial and beneficial in the long term,

00:29:43   you know, like energy savings and that kind of stuff.

00:29:45   Like you'll get some anyway and they can optimize for that later,

00:29:49   but they need to show that this is the right move for people to get their work done no matter what it is.

00:29:55   And if they release these chips and even if they have greater battery life,

00:29:59   but they're slower like that's going to be the the news, right?

00:30:04   Like you want to make sure that you can provide something which you can show like,

00:30:09   hey, we've been held back and now we're you know,

00:30:13   we're going for it. We're shooting for the most.

00:30:16   This is the thing that we've talked about a few times here, which is Apple's pride.

00:30:22   Yep. Apple is so proud of these chips.

00:30:26   I'm sure we'll hear it in our next episode, right?

00:30:28   They're so proud of what they've done with Apple Silicon and they should be like on the on the phone side.

00:30:32   They've basically lapped the competition. It's amazing how far ahead they are.

00:30:38   There's no way that Apple is going to do a chip transition to their own processors that makes them look bad.

00:30:43   They're the only way they're going to do it is if they know that they can look good

00:30:47   and they're confident that they can look good.

00:30:49   And in fact, I again looking at the numbers

00:30:51   and imagining them building chips with more cores for the iPad as they've always done

00:30:55   and even more course for the Mac, which I think they probably will do especially on the higher end.

00:31:02   They're not going to even need to exert a whole lot of effort to get there,

00:31:07   but I will say that if they're planning,

00:31:11   you know, and again, this would have happened a year ago probably

00:31:13   but planning what these chips are going to be as a part of this transition and they're like,

00:31:18   well, we could do this and we'll be about par with what Intel has or we could do this

00:31:24   and it'll be more expensive but will it'll really put Intel to shame.

00:31:29   I firmly believe that the decision would be to put Intel to shame,

00:31:33   right even if it means pushing it a little harder than they would

00:31:38   and maybe even if it means that that the next year

00:31:42   or the next processor generation they back off a little bit

00:31:45   and the improvements aren't quite as great.

00:31:47   If you're following me here like to make a splash to make the effort

00:31:50   and make the tech decisions to put Intel to shame.

00:31:54   I got to think that that is part of this strategy, right?

00:31:57   Like why would you go out with this thing that you built that shows your superiority

00:32:02   and makes your platform better at a moment when you couldn't like it doesn't make any sense.

00:32:07   They wouldn't they wouldn't they wouldn't do this until they were ready to really say Apple.

00:32:12   Silicon is not a compromise in order for us to take this in-house.

00:32:17   Apple Silicon is us doing you a favor by making the Mac better.

00:32:22   Like they they would not be doing this if that wasn't going to happen.

00:32:26   And so it absolutely is going to happen.

00:32:27   I'm just kind of curious about exactly how and in what way.

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00:34:49   So last month Mark Gurman wrote a story in Bloomberg talking about

00:34:53   what the future of Apple leadership may look like.

00:34:56   I think the story went a little bit under the radar because it was it occurred.

00:34:59   I think the Friday before the Apple event. So I saw it.

00:35:03   I like the look of it. I saved it and now I wanted to talk about it because I think this is this feels pretty unprecedented to me.

00:35:11   I don't know if I've ever seen an article like this before naming a lot of people inside of Apple that I've not heard of before

00:35:20   and I thought that was pretty interesting as a thing to have a have vision on.

00:35:26   I enjoyed this story.

00:35:28   I did laugh about it because I I can just see the assigning memo or conversation from whoever Mark Gurman's editor is saying Mark.

00:35:41   I want a story you write about Apple, you know about Apple.

00:35:45   I want a story about succession. Like okay, like Tim for Tim Cook not for everybody everybody go through the list and just give me names of everybody at Apple.

00:35:55   And so this this article is it's good but at moments it's absurd because it really feels like they're just you know,

00:36:03   he went down and he's got great contacts. So he gets names and stuff.

00:36:06   It's very impressive and what people think and it's sort of like the people he talked to what they think the the conventional wisdom is about who is you know,

00:36:14   who would step up to replace somebody if they left Apple and but it does also feel like he literally went through the list the executive list on the web page

00:36:23   and then got a name for the editor did and said I want a paragraph about every one of these people Mark.

00:36:29   Kermit's like, all right. Okay, I can do that and he can do it and he did it and he did a good job.

00:36:33   But I did I find it the premise a little bit funny because in some of them it feels a little like a teacher gives you an assignment

00:36:39   and and you realize that they've made a mistake

00:36:41   and that some of the parts of the assignment are dumb and you shouldn't do them like the when he gets to retail

00:36:47   and he talked about like they literally made a change at retail and put Deidre O'Brien in charge

00:36:52   and he's like really there's nothing to say here.

00:36:57   There are people there are people that are good at the bottom inside.

00:37:02   Yeah, maybe like but I think it's also the problem is that so the premise is really great

00:37:11   and I think Mark makes it so I'm not trying to pick on Mark here.

00:37:15   I think Mark is a pro and he does a great job.

00:37:17   I can see I can see where he was asked to do stuff where he's like, all right fine.

00:37:24   But that's that's the job when your editor tells you to do something.

00:37:27   He makes a great case at the top of this article,

00:37:29   which is something we've talked about here too.

00:37:32   And I know other Apple focus podcasts have talked about it,

00:37:34   which is these people a lot of these people have been at Apple a long time.

00:37:38   They have made a lot of money. They have made even more money in stock

00:37:42   and they don't need to work anymore.

00:37:46   Like they don't it mean doesn't mean they don't want to work

00:37:49   because a lot of these people are are true believers or Apple lifers

00:37:54   and they they care about it

00:37:56   and they like I think Phil Schiller is like that even when he steps back.

00:37:59   He doesn't really step back right because he's just too into it.

00:38:02   I think Greg Joss we act is actually kind of like that.

00:38:04   He's been there for 30 years now.

00:38:06   I think 25 years. It was his first job.

00:38:08   I think out of school and he's still there like he and he's a pro like

00:38:15   but I think the premise is still true that like as much as you love something

00:38:19   if you have proverbial cold it's called retirement money.

00:38:27   You could just leave right you're working hard at a super intense.

00:38:31   You could just leave and buy a house on the top of a private Island

00:38:36   and go on with your life.

00:38:39   And and so it's worth talking about

00:38:42   because even if they're not near retirement age doesn't mean that they won't leave

00:38:47   and you do need to know who comes next.

00:38:51   So like the I think the framing for this began at the fact that Tim Cook

00:38:55   has he's done his decade now leading for Apple,

00:39:00   which is bananas to think it's been that amount of time.

00:39:04   But so of course there is a section plan in place for him.

00:39:08   I mean considering Apple's history.

00:39:10   I'm sure that this has been a thing since the beginning for them.

00:39:13   No, no one knows better the importance of succession planning than Tim Cook,

00:39:17   right? Yeah, there are many companies that have had to deal with what Apple had to deal

00:39:23   with and losing Steve Jobs on like way before his time,

00:39:27   right? They are they are quite I'm sure positioned to want to consider this always

00:39:33   for most of their important people apparently as well the current leadership team

00:39:38   at Apple has made this a priority and I expect again like I've and Schiller leaving.

00:39:44   I'm sure is only serve to highlight this for them right like that.

00:39:47   This is a thing that they need to be constantly thinking of.

00:39:50   Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's just it's a real issue that they have to deal with

00:39:54   and it's unique in the sense that it's not about stealing people away from the competitors

00:40:00   or having their people be stolen away from the competitors.

00:40:03   It's about their success making them if not complacent,

00:40:10   right like making making it easy for people to just leave

00:40:16   because they aren't interested anymore

00:40:19   and like that's a brain drain of a different kind

00:40:21   and it's kind of a good problem to have

00:40:23   but it's still a problem and you still got to have people you want to step up.

00:40:27   And then also I will I will say the truth of it is that sometimes they want to stay

00:40:32   and but they also don't want to work as hard right

00:40:37   because they got all the money and they're they've you know,

00:40:40   they're getting older and as a as a manager or an executive.

00:40:46   I think you do have to look at that and say,

00:40:48   you know below a certain level of work from you.

00:40:50   You should just become an Apple fellow

00:40:51   and I'm not saying that happened to Phil Schiller,

00:40:53   but like it may have just been the case of like well probably what did happen for Schiller is like,

00:40:57   look, I don't want to stop because I love this job and I love this company,

00:41:01   but I no longer need to or want to deal with all of it.

00:41:05   Yeah to do all of the things that you want from this position

00:41:08   and and I think that that's that's not unreasonable from any perspective

00:41:12   and Jonathan I've was an example where he wasn't coming into work

00:41:14   and then he was like he was in San Francisco

00:41:16   or he was in London and all that and they did it for a while and then they dropped it.

00:41:19   So I think that that's another part of it.

00:41:20   If you're Tim Cook, which is if I need super focused leadership in this area

00:41:25   and this great person who's been here forever doesn't want to do it

00:41:29   because they don't have that much to give anymore.

00:41:32   Then I need to find a way to move them out and either find them a reduced thing to do

00:41:38   or just tell them it's time for them to step aside

00:41:40   and let their and let their deputy or another management thing you could do if you're Tim Cook

00:41:46   or any other senior manager is you go to the person and say hey,

00:41:51   this is what I'm thinking which is you're great and you do a great job

00:41:54   and you've been here a long time,

00:41:55   but you got all the money and you know and you're and you're getting to an age

00:41:59   where you probably are thinking about retiring and I need I need your your job.

00:42:05   A big part of your job from now on is building up your subordinates building up your direct reports

00:42:12   to take your job from you because you're not going to be here forever.

00:42:16   Just like I'm not going to be here forever and I feel like we're getting closer to that point.

00:42:20   And so if you are feeling more, you know, like you don't want to you don't want to give 200%

00:42:29   continue giving 200% to Apple.

00:42:32   I get it. This is where we need to go next is you need to start handing things off to these people.

00:42:37   Watch them step up tell us who can be your replacement

00:42:42   and we'll start that process because you will leave at some point

00:42:45   and we want these people right it's you know,

00:42:47   and you can couch it in different ways,

00:42:48   but it's basically like look you're great,

00:42:51   but you're not going to be here forever

00:42:52   and you could quit whenever you want now and buy that island and build that house.

00:42:56   So what I need you to do is is is have your people step up.

00:43:01   I watched The Death of Stalin last night,

00:43:04   which is a really good movie by the way.

00:43:06   Like everybody has been the past few days.

00:43:07   Well, right. I mean there is that scene with all the doctors that they read.

00:43:11   It's amazing. Anyway, I had to I was like,

00:43:14   let's watch The Death of Stalin and my wife is like,

00:43:17   why I'm like, well, you'll see but one of the big stories in The Death of Stalin

00:43:22   and it's a funny movie is is if there was ever someone who didn't do succession planning,

00:43:28   it's Joseph Stalin right cult of personality.

00:43:30   It's just me and I was thinking about it just in those terms,

00:43:35   which is you can't do that right like and Tim Cook knows this like I'm sure in the early days

00:43:40   when Steve Jobs came back. There was no succession planning happening.

00:43:44   And then there comes a moment and I think in Jobs's case

00:43:47   because he survived so long with pancreatic cancer,

00:43:49   right that an unusual length of time that they had time to consider the mortality of their leader

00:43:56   and figure out what to do. But I do think that that's probably imprinted on Tim Cook

00:44:00   and it's important for any I mean,

00:44:02   I will always was taught in every management course I ever took that part of your job is to develop your

00:44:10   your people so they can do your job

00:44:12   and the argument is not so they can do your job

00:44:14   so they can replace you which is sort of the Stalin argument,

00:44:17   right which is no I need everybody dependent on me

00:44:20   so that nobody nobody replaces me in a coup.

00:44:25   But as a as a manager, ideally you want to advance and grow

00:44:29   and change and the only way you can do that is by having your people be brought up

00:44:33   and and a good organizational structure values managers who grow their people like they see that as an asset.

00:44:41   Like we can promote you and put you on something else

00:44:44   because you cultivate good people in your group who then go on to be contributors like that's how it all works.

00:44:51   So anyway, I am not to not to go get too far off of Mark Gurman,

00:44:55   but like that's what I think is important about this kind of story is that any of these people could leave at any time.

00:45:00   And the question is who are they cultivating and you know,

00:45:03   there are some great answers where it's like this looks like a person who's ready to go

00:45:07   and there are other answers where it's like that's a that's one to watch.

00:45:11   So let's start to get into this a little bit.

00:45:14   Obviously, we'll start at the very top. We'll start with Tim.

00:45:17   So the the succession planning for the CEO all signs point to Jeff Williams and have done for a while.

00:45:23   So Jeff Williams had been running operations for quite a while.

00:45:27   So coming from a very still the exact same background as Tim and then took over development of health

00:45:33   and watch the Apple watch in 2013 right last year gained oversight of all software and hardware.

00:45:40   So he kind of seems very much like how Cook was to jobs really in like taking a lot of the roles that had previously been seen as the Apple CEO or CEO's job,

00:45:52   right? So like picking up a lot of quite large oversight and large areas.

00:45:57   So everyone's always thought. Yep. Williams definitely CEO,

00:46:02   but Williams and Cook are the same age.

00:46:04   So if Cook wants to keep going Williams might not get the chance.

00:46:09   This reminds me quite a lot of the British Royal family barely here.

00:46:17   The Queen clearly got it does not want to go away.

00:46:22   Yeah, and so Prince Charles,

00:46:24   I believe personally may never get the chance to be king

00:46:29   because I think that there is a strong possibility of it just going straight to our like full Royal family.

00:46:37   So looking at Prince William and yeah,

00:46:42   and Kate Catherine and their whole unit. I can call her Kate because I don't I don't care.

00:46:47   Yeah, the idea there is the Charles if Charles takes over as king it will be he will be so old at this point that it will be a brief rein,

00:46:57   right presumably even though they've got some great jeans boy.

00:47:00   They just keep on living but but I see your point too

00:47:05   and and that's actually one of the things in this that that I thought was a weird part of the story,

00:47:09   which is like you could read it as being like the obviousness of succession planning that everybody's going to need to get out of there.

00:47:16   But I look at Tim Cook and I don't think he's angling for the door.

00:47:19   Right? Like I look at Tim Cook and think that guy thinks he's got the best job in the world.

00:47:24   Right? Yeah, and and so it's always good to have somebody in waiting.

00:47:28   But I think the truth of the matter is that an exec in waiting either is super happy with their job

00:47:34   and willing to be in waiting or will after a certain amount of time.

00:47:39   They kind of have an expiration date and they go somewhere else to be CEO

00:47:44   and an example from recent history is Disney right where Bob Iger decided to step down

00:47:50   and he chose one of his lieutenants to be the new CEO

00:47:54   and the other guy who had launched Disney Plus left to go to TikTok.

00:48:00   Anyway, that was a bad choice.

00:48:04   But but you see the point there and so so Jeff Williams like it's always good to have a vice president who can step in in case something happens to the president.

00:48:16   But a lot of times that nothing happens to the president and the vice president just is around

00:48:22   and that's not a great job, but it happens.

00:48:24   I think there are people that come up throughout this conversation who could step into this role.

00:48:30   But Williams really seems to be kind of like the person there

00:48:34   if something did happen to Tim Cook Jeff Williams would be the person to pick up the mantle

00:48:39   but it does seem like there are many people throughout the organization that could that could take the reins.

00:48:44   I will just say like one potential I think could be Craig Federighi if he decided

00:48:51   or if it was decided it was something that he wanted to do purely from the like the kind of jobs idea of the creative person being CEO.

00:49:01   It does seem like at least that Federighi has so much responsibility at Apple that maybe but I doubt it but maybe.

00:49:08   So the next kind of roll down which actually makes a lot of sense at Apple is marketing.

00:49:13   So Jaws has just been put in place.

00:49:16   In fact Jaws has just got his his place on the Apple leadership page in the last few days.

00:49:21   You made it to the web page.

00:49:23   So it's efficient.

00:49:25   Greg Jaws Jawswiak is what it says on the page.

00:49:28   I think it's very funny.

00:49:30   And Phil Schiller is actually still listed on the page

00:49:33   but at the very very very very bottom underneath the line all the way down.

00:49:38   He's in the fellow zone.

00:49:40   Yeah apparently the person most likely to take Jaws's role is Kayan Jants

00:49:46   who was recently appointed as the vice president of iPhone marketing.

00:49:51   I think you're going to see this throughout the entire conversation today.

00:49:56   Anybody that seems to be someone who may take a leadership role is given the iPhone role.

00:50:03   Like there are so many people that we're going to talk about that like that are important.

00:50:09   You're given the iPhone because you're effectively given the keys to the kingdom.

00:50:13   And if you can run the iPhone you can run anything because it's the business right.

00:50:18   It's all of it, you know, like so much of the business is driven by the iPhone

00:50:23   that if you can run the iPhone part of the business successfully

00:50:26   that is a very good indicator for you being able to run the whole kit and caboodle right.

00:50:32   And so yeah, it's the most important business unit and it's not a unit

00:50:36   but it's the most important what product line at Apple if you want to call it that.

00:50:40   And we have seen Kayan Jants in a bunch of stuff

00:50:43   and you know it what we see from the outside is not what the details are on the inside.

00:50:49   And so there's you know reading into the black box.

00:50:50   That's the that's the value of Mark Gurman talking to people inside Apple right

00:50:55   because they have internal perceptions that we don't have.

00:50:58   Yeah, and yeah, I think this is really cool.

00:51:01   It's also funny for a lot of us

00:51:03   and cool for a lot of us on the outside because we know her husband.

00:51:08   Her husband is Matt Drans.

00:51:10   Oh, I hadn't put two and two together.

00:51:12   Yeah, interesting.

00:51:13   It's been in and out of Apple and I've seen and met a bunch of times and it's just kind of funny.

00:51:18   But so first time she appeared on Apple stage it was like,

00:51:23   oh, and now she's you know, she's a mover and shaker at Apple.

00:51:27   That's awesome. So that's great.

00:51:29   Yeah, there are some of these people quite a few of these people recently

00:51:31   that we have been seeing in presentations,

00:51:33   but we don't get the context a lot of the time for like how exactly they are.

00:51:40   And so this is useful for that Stan Ng who runs watch has been around since the 90s.

00:51:46   He's also somebody considered important in this area

00:51:48   and Susan Prescott who we've also seen on stage recently runs apps and Enterprise.

00:51:52   These are also considered potential kind of candidates to take over the world.

00:51:56   But also Jaws literally just took the job

00:51:59   and although he's three years younger than than Phil Schiller like he's going to want to tenure.

00:52:04   Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

00:52:06   So this is this is one of those words like well,

00:52:07   yeah, I mean, here's some people who might be up in comers like like in sports.

00:52:13   I'm going to use a baseball example,

00:52:14   but like there are minor leaguers who are like prospects

00:52:17   and you have 15 of them

00:52:19   and two of them will end up becoming major leaguers.

00:52:22   It's a little like that where there's like there's a bunch of prospects and that's great.

00:52:25   But the horizon here the time Horizon here is such that you know,

00:52:30   it's going to be a while probably before any of them would need to step up.

00:52:34   So move into software engineering turns out that 51 Craig Viderighi is Apple's youngest executive.

00:52:40   He is a young young man.

00:52:41   And I say that as somebody who is only slightly younger than him.

00:52:45   It's Jason's birthday tomorrow.

00:52:48   It's true October 6th is Jason's birthday.

00:52:50   So wish Jason a happy birthday.

00:52:52   No, I accept all of your happy birthdays

00:52:55   and let's just say it's a special birthday for Jason Snell.

00:52:59   So make sure to give him it is a milestone birthday for me.

00:53:02   It's true 30.

00:53:04   Can you imagine?

00:53:07   So also I think Craig has been around for a while

00:53:12   but not as long as some of the other people in the roles.

00:53:14   Like you look at someone like Eddie Q.

00:53:16   Yeah, I feel like Eddie's been there forever.

00:53:19   And you know, Federighi I mentioned is like seems quite important Apple,

00:53:24   but there's a Sebastian Maranume,

00:53:27   I'm going to say there are names.

00:53:28   I'm definitely going to I've tried to learn some of these names out of Sam properly

00:53:32   and I'm going to look at some of them.

00:53:34   It's the vice president of intelligence systems experience,

00:53:38   which I don't even know what that job title means

00:53:41   and John Andrews who was named vice president in charge of the core OS last year

00:53:46   as seen by people close to Apple's most likely to be promoted quote if necessary.

00:53:52   I think this is a role where one of the roles here was like they don't have anybody else

00:53:56   other than Federighi that they will put in charge

00:53:59   because they don't want to make any change.

00:54:01   Yeah, so moving to services Peter Stern is currently at the top of the list to take this role from Eddie Q.

00:54:08   Stern currently oversees the business side of TV+

00:54:11   as well as leading news books and iCloud.

00:54:14   Stern feels very close to moving in here to be honest.

00:54:19   Eddie Q would be fairly high up on my list of people who seem pretty seem to have done a pretty good job.

00:54:26   And well, I mean we can't tell how serious or checked out Eddie Q is at all.

00:54:31   Like I think from the outside about this quite a while ago on an episode of connected where I think Q is seen

00:54:37   and I'm poking fun at him and I shouldn't

00:54:39   but he's seen as someone who maybe isn't that important

00:54:43   but in doing some research about him a while ago,

00:54:46   it is seen by many and written in books and stuff that Q is if you need a deal done Q does the deal.

00:54:54   Right and that is an important person to have and this is going all the way back to jobs this time.

00:54:59   Yeah, that's how he has gotten where he is.

00:55:01   I'm more saying that Eddie Q seems like a guy who's been at Apple a long time

00:55:06   who has a lot of money and enjoys having fun and enjoys life.

00:55:12   Right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:55:14   So so he's on the what board of Ferrari we see him at basketball games back

00:55:19   when they had people at basketball games,

00:55:20   which they don't anymore and I only I mean and again,

00:55:24   that's all surface stuff but I walk away from that thinking that's the kind of guy who would choose at some point

00:55:30   probably to walk away and say, you know what I enjoy life and I've got enough money to enjoy it for the rest of my life.

00:55:37   So I'm going to walk away now that and again,

00:55:39   that's just tea leaf reading its Apple criminology,

00:55:42   but to get it back to Stalin,

00:55:44   but like that's honestly I think that I think that having money

00:55:48   and the ability to enjoy life is the biggest threat Apple poses or Apple faces for losing its executives.

00:55:55   Right? I mean, that's the truth of it is if you've got all the money you can imagine you could possibly spend

00:56:01   and you can come imagine what life is like and this is the key.

00:56:05   Imagine what life is like when you don't have a super intense job at Apple every day.

00:56:10   Then you're a candidate to get out of there.

00:56:12   I do think that there are certain people at Apple

00:56:15   because there are certain people in all of life who cannot imagine not working in that intense climate,

00:56:23   right? That's how you get there are work.

00:56:25   You got to yeah, you got to be committed and a workaholic or whatever

00:56:28   and you hear those stories about there the people who like golf the retirees who like golf every day

00:56:33   and they do it because they need something to focus their energy

00:56:37   and their and their their mind on and I totally get it right.

00:56:40   So but anyway, when I think about it at a queue,

00:56:43   I do think about like think of all the basketball games.

00:56:45   He could go to and all the concerts he could go to

00:56:48   and like all the places he could drive a Ferrari if he didn't have his job anymore.

00:56:54   And I think like at some point don't you make that decision like don't you say I have conquered everything

00:57:00   and I'm going to go drive my Ferrari into the sunset now and you know,

00:57:04   like this one when looking at Stern.

00:57:09   It kind of seems like he's running a lot of what we thought Eddie was running,

00:57:14   you know, like at least the day-to-day.

00:57:16   So like looking at all of the business side of TV plus newsbooks

00:57:19   and iCloud like it's pretty much Eddie Q's division

00:57:23   and like I mean in this is I'm sure it's just the case for many of the executives.

00:57:26   It's like they have a division that they oversee but it's run by many other people,

00:57:30   but it seems like Stern has his hands in a lot of this.

00:57:34   So operations.

00:57:36   Sabine Khan is in currently in charge of this division.

00:57:39   Khan took over from Williams and Williams moved into being more of an oversight role.

00:57:44   So again, we've just we've just had the person step up into the role.

00:57:48   But Priya Balasubramaniam is the head of operations for the iPhone.

00:57:53   Again, we're most likely to be the person taking over here

00:57:56   because the iPhone operations are the operations.

00:58:00   Yeah, and I like okay.

00:58:02   I and this is one of those cases where it feels like it's a job that just got filled.

00:58:05   So it's not a big deal, but I enjoyed this specifically

00:58:09   because I didn't know about Priya Balasubramaniam

00:58:11   and she sounds super awesome and important and I never heard of her before.

00:58:18   So that was great like because there's this whole story about like the facial recognition sensor was broken

00:58:24   and at South Korea and she had to like go and like fix what the challenges were

00:58:30   and like I love a story like that, right?

00:58:31   Like those are those are the kind of stories that the operations people tell which is like if they keep they went in there

00:58:37   and they fixed it and we shipped it right looks like yay.

00:58:40   Hooray. So that was that was cool to hear about somebody I had not heard about before

00:58:45   who seems to be very impressive inside Apple operations.

00:58:48   Yeah, you can imagine that doing something like making sure the iPhone 10 shipped on time.

00:58:53   Otherwise, it wouldn't have have you can imagine why this story is told

00:58:57   because clearly Priya Balasubramaniam is considered inside of Apple as like a person who gets it done,

00:59:04   right which is like that's the type of like in these types of environments.

00:59:08   You want to be seen as that person in a corporate environment.

00:59:10   Oh, yeah Priya. She gets it done.

00:59:14   She's 46, right?

00:59:15   So she's also an example of real up-and-coming relatively young in terms of Apple's executive ranks

00:59:21   and being responsible for shipping probably Apple's second most important iPhone ever after the first one on time

00:59:28   and most important product period right like in terms of Apple's money that's coming in.

00:59:34   That's a that's a sign. Yes, as you said it's a great sign of confidence in you as an Apple worker

00:59:40   that you're involved in important parts of the iPhone right?

00:59:43   Look again, we're talking about people here that by and large are very hungry very focused.

00:59:50   Everyone wants iPhone right?

00:59:52   There are lots of exciting and interesting jobs to work on an Apple.

00:59:56   I'm sure and depending on the type of person you are you may want a specific thing,

01:00:01   right? But if you are someone who wants to get ahead there,

01:00:06   I am sure you want to have some involvement in the iPhone line

01:00:10   because that's where the focus is right?

01:00:14   And if that's what you want, I'm sure that you want to be in that stream somewhere.

01:00:19   Hardware engineering. This one was really interesting to me.

01:00:22   So John Turnus is currently expected to be in line to take over from is it Dan Riccio?

01:00:31   Riccio, yeah.

01:00:32   Yeah, Google Docs did a horrific or correct on me here,

01:00:36   which is why I confused myself. Turnus has been appearing more and more on stage

01:00:42   and in interviews over the last couple of years.

01:00:45   So he does a lot of the presentations around Mac and iPad because that's what he's running,

01:00:49   but he actually comes on stage and does the presentations.

01:00:52   And a quote from the article says a person who knows Turnus called him a well-respected manager

01:00:56   who understands the technology

01:00:58   and despite his rising profile has remained unassuming.

01:01:02   All characteristics of a potential future division head or even CEO.

01:01:07   Now I would say from seeing John Turner speak and hearing John Turner speak.

01:01:13   I could imagine him as a leader of Apple.

01:01:17   Like he gives that kind of feeling right interesting.

01:01:23   Yeah. I mean, I don't know and again behind what's fascinating is that behind the scenes.

01:01:28   We've seen his profile rise in you know on stage,

01:01:31   but behind the scenes it's interesting to hear how highly he's he's thought of that that means a lot.

01:01:39   Hardware Technologies. This is where it starts to fall apart currently run by Johnny Srouji.

01:01:43   There's not many people that are said to be seen as having the quote clout to run such a demanding division.

01:01:50   So there isn't anyone. Sribalan Santhanam is currently the person most likely to step up.

01:01:56   I mean again purely because I think we've seen Santhanam recently

01:02:00   as part of the Apple Silicon introduction in this division is an important person,

01:02:04   but it seems like Srouji is like well embedded in this division which is

01:02:09   and we already mentioned it the same for the retail and HR.

01:02:11   Is that Deidre O'Brien's role is solidified here.

01:02:15   It is still expected as I think continues to make sense that eventually they should separate these two divisions again,

01:02:23   but maybe there is something to be said right now during COVID-19 to having this all run by one person

01:02:30   and it ended up just being lucky for Apple really that they ended up putting one person in charge of a role

01:02:36   that would have an awful lot of interconnection right now.

01:02:40   That retail being like Apple's frontline needs a lot of human resource now,

01:02:46   maybe more than it's needed as like transitioning these employees to different roles inside of the company.

01:02:53   But yes, this is a role that nobody is has been specified for.

01:02:57   So I wanted to make like an overall point here where the diversity of the people

01:03:02   that are being suggested as taking over roles is far different

01:03:06   and better than what we have seen currently inside of Apple's leadership.

01:03:10   So lots of non-white men, right that are being put in line it seems for future top roles,

01:03:17   which is fantastic. It's great to see that

01:03:18   and I think is something to be said for the efforts that Apple have been saying they've been pushing on

01:03:24   but the key is to keep them because how long do these people have to wait

01:03:29   because if you have someone in these roles who is like is a woman is a non-white person.

01:03:38   How long are they going to need to wait before they're going to either leave

01:03:40   or going to be poached by somebody else to run a company somewhere else,

01:03:44   right like the danger is the only people who stay who are the who are the people who are Apple lifers

01:03:48   who've been there for a very very long time,

01:03:50   which means that they're older and that the younger up-and-coming talented people like they need advancement in their careers.

01:03:57   And if they don't get it, I mean an Apple I'm sure can afford to pay them whatever they need to pay them to make them stay

01:04:02   but ultimately it's not all about that.

01:04:05   And if Google or Facebook or you know,

01:04:07   Microsoft or whoever has a more senior role for them.

01:04:13   They will lose them and I and this brings me back to what I was saying earlier about if you're Tim Cook,

01:04:20   one of the things you need to do is be paying attention to the longtime people on your team who have lots of money

01:04:30   and lots of stock and have been at Apple a very long time

01:04:34   and are getting up there in age where maybe they're thinking about,

01:04:37   you know retirement or easing back and all of that

01:04:41   and you have to look at that and think about the people that you're going to lose like you could have a senior executive who's happy as a clam

01:04:49   and they're doing their job that they've always done and they're fine.

01:04:52   But you know as Tim, you know,

01:04:56   maybe that's the conversation Tim Cook has to have which is basically like we're going to lose this person

01:05:01   and you got all the money.

01:05:04   So at some point you have to make decisions like that where it's not like I'm not firing you.

01:05:09   In fact, you could be again. I don't know the facts about Phil Schiller,

01:05:13   but like it's a good example of I'm not firing you you can still be part of this and you can still do stuff.

01:05:17   But like I need to bring up your your lieutenants or I'm going to lose them.

01:05:24   And then we got nothing because you don't and this is part of my sales pitch to this in imaginary Apple exec.

01:05:31   You don't want to have to start from scratch at training a new generation of people to replace you

01:05:36   because you did too good a job at this and they all left because you wouldn't leave.

01:05:42   So like I think this is this is a great challenge for Tim Cook and a great challenge for Apple is how do you keep this great well of talent that's up and coming?

01:05:53   How do you keep them advancing if you have this group of people who've been at Apple since the 90s

01:06:00   and have been on this ride where Apple has gone from being almost dead to being on top at some point.

01:06:07   You have to start having all of those people, you know, you play the victory music

01:06:12   and you have them exit and then go out into the world and and become philanthropists

01:06:17   or drive around in their fancy cars or whatever they want to do because not because they're doing a bad job,

01:06:25   but because they're now standing in the way of the next generation of people

01:06:31   and it's probably worse to have a brain drain at that second level, right?

01:06:38   Because then you've got a person who's been there forever who now is connecting with people who are way younger than them

01:06:43   and way less experienced at Apple and maybe they're kind of like easing off on how intense they are about working

01:06:48   and they have to train another group that they already mentored this group

01:06:54   and that mentorship is now providing value to one of your competitors.

01:06:58   It's tough, right? It's a tough thing.

01:07:02   So I like seeing these people in these places, but like that's part of the challenge here is how do you keep those people who are really great

01:07:11   and have a potential big trajectory ahead of them at Apple.

01:07:17   How do you keep them at Apple?

01:07:19   I think, I've said this for a while and I stand by it, I think they should create more positions at the top.

01:07:25   Apple seem to want to do this when they want to do this.

01:07:31   They consolidate, they expand.

01:07:32   I think that there is space for more top positions on that leadership page,

01:07:36   even more C-level positions, freeing up a VP position or two or VP positions.

01:07:44   I think this is something that they have the ability to do when they want to do it.

01:07:48   I don't know why they don't do that.

01:07:53   Well, I mean some of it, I would imagine some of it is, I'm in charge of this and I don't want to give it up.

01:07:59   I think that that is a challenge and that's a management challenge.

01:08:02   I think some of it is when you promote somebody you want to give them a feeling that they're actually in charge of something

01:08:08   and there is this potential to have the hollow promotion where you're promoting somebody to be in charge of a thing that your boss is the same

01:08:16   because they're actually in charge of both.

01:08:18   So I'm in charge of A and B and I decide that I really love my lieutenants in A and B.

01:08:23   So I'm going to make them senior vice presidents of A and B.

01:08:26   They still report to me and their job was to be in charge of A and B and it still is to be in charge of A and B and I'm still in charge of them.

01:08:32   Like that's great, but it's also nothing, right?

01:08:36   That's the danger is but I think you're right.

01:08:40   And this is a place where as we mentioned about Deidre O'Brien that there's potential is at some point does a lieutenant step up in HR or retail

01:08:51   and Deidre O'Brien says I'm not going to do retail anymore.

01:08:55   You're going to do retail and you it's a real promotion or at some point.

01:09:00   Are you a very senior person and you've got two people who are in charge of these two groups at that moment

01:09:04   where you decide to enter into fellowship and go to your island do those two people rather than them fighting it out to see who gets your job.

01:09:15   You both you basically say no now you're separately in charge of these things and you were both report to Tim Cook.

01:09:24   The challenge there is that also whether it's Jeff Williams or Tim Cook like there's only so many people who you can have report to you.

01:09:30   You can't have a structure where there's like 50 people reporting to the CEO that it doesn't work.

01:09:36   So it's tough.

01:09:38   I mean, that's why they pay him the big bucks.

01:09:41   But that is a challenge that they have.

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01:12:21   It is time for some #AskUpgradeQuestions.

01:12:27   And the first today comes from Leaven who asks,

01:12:30   "Which blogs do you read to stay on top of streaming media news for Upstream?"

01:12:36   Well, blogs is not my answer.

01:12:39   I mean, I do I follow some people on Twitter and I follow,

01:12:45   including The Hollywood Reporter, which is not a blog.

01:12:50   It's a major industry website,

01:12:54   but they have a reporter Natalie Jarvi who used to be on download when we did that podcast all the time.

01:13:03   And she's great and she is their tech, their digital reporter.

01:13:08   And so I follow her and also look at that site and I get a lot there and then there's,

01:13:12   you know, there's variety and then honestly the Apple blogs like 9to5Mac and MacRumors,

01:13:19   like they do a pretty good job and even Mac stories actually from time to time will have links to this stuff too.

01:13:26   It's a little bit out of what they usually focus on but like a lot of those places will have noted a,

01:13:31   you know, an Apple signing that got reported somewhere else.

01:13:34   I'll see that sort of secondhand.

01:13:36   But a lot of this stuff is it's Hollywood.

01:13:40   It's industry stuff and THR and variety and deadline are the sites that cover that industry.

01:13:48   They're all now apparently owned by the same company, which is really bad by the way.

01:13:52   Oh, really?

01:13:54   Yeah.

01:13:55   Yeah, the entire industry's entire voice is now consolidated in one organization and that's going to be there.

01:14:03   People are going to lose their jobs.

01:14:04   The industry is not going to be covered as well.

01:14:07   They it's a company that actually one of the owners actually makes TV shows and movies.

01:14:12   So they're going to there's gonna be like interference and it's so bad.

01:14:17   But anyway, I still go to those sites and Natalie Jarvey does a fantastic job at covering the tech industry inside entertainment.

01:14:28   So yeah, so her out THR.com.

01:14:31   I agree with all of that and it used to be when we started doing this.

01:14:35   You had to follow Hollywood to get the stuff that Apple was doing especially.

01:14:40   So, you know, I follow variety variety have an RSS feed somewhere somewhere that is just their tech stuff, which is good.

01:14:49   And I also follow nice me Jarvey and Lucas.

01:14:51   Sure and Todd Spangler.

01:14:53   They're like the three people so like now to leave Lucas and Todd like three people that always have good reporting on this stuff because they all come in this from a tech angle as well, which is interesting to me.

01:15:02   But these days most of my information about Apple TV comes from as you said Mac stories macro rumors on 9 to 5 Mac

01:15:10   because they are all following it now because it's important, you know, to say we were there first, right?

01:15:15   I think everyone can agree on that at this point that we were there first.

01:15:19   But yeah, these days I don't need to go to variety and deadline to get that news.

01:15:25   But typically when I see it on 9 to 5 Mac, I do click through to whatever source they're pulling it from.

01:15:32   Because it tends to be deadline variety The Hollywood Reporter and they will have more information as is typical with that type of article.

01:15:41   Martin asked do you think that the icon customization trend that we've seen will bring more people to actually use shortcuts for automation?

01:15:50   I think yes because I think that there are a lot of people now that didn't even know this app existed and may dig around.

01:15:57   I don't think it's going to be like now the whole world is using shortcuts.

01:16:01   But I just think naturally through there being more people using it more people will be like what else does this do?

01:16:09   So I think it's good. I do think I want to put this out there.

01:16:13   I do think we are going to see a more official way of doing this and shortcuts will be the answer.

01:16:23   Yeah, I don't know. I mean my guess is no but my longer answer is what you said which is

01:16:29   I'm sure that some people will discover shortcuts and think oh look at this.

01:16:33   I didn't know this was there and then they'll do more things with you user automation,

01:16:37   but I doubt it would be a particularly large number and my gut feeling is that in the long run.

01:16:43   I mean Apple might just make a change so that when you tap on an icon that runs a shortcut that runs an app,

01:16:48   it just launches the app and doesn't show you the shortcut interface.

01:16:52   But if I had to guess my guess is that Apple will instead provide a way for people to do custom icons next year.

01:16:58   Yeah, I agree. I just for whatever reason I think that they will quote-unquote hide this in shortcuts

01:17:06   and it would be like a way to do it right if they decided it was the right thing to do.

01:17:10   They could do that in an update iOS 14 and it would become one of those things

01:17:13   where it maybe slides down the little notification saying I'm opening this app

01:17:17   and shows that apps icon or whatever but doesn't open up shortcuts or anything like that

01:17:21   because that's it feels so arbitrary already right like what there are actions that if you tap on an icon in

01:17:28   fact, here's a here's a good one those icons you tap on them in the home screen

01:17:31   and they launch shortcuts and then they run the shortcut and then they open the app,

01:17:34   but if you put them in a widget and you tap on them they just open so like I made a widget called read news

01:17:42   that gives me a list of like 10 news sources that I read and most of them are apps

01:17:46   but some of them are websites and I tap on them and then just opens right like in the widget

01:17:52   if you launch it from the widget there are certain things certain actions you take that don't open the shortcuts UI

01:17:57   but tapping on the icon in the home screen opens the shortcuts UI

01:18:01   so like they could adjust that if they wanted to and said oh no for something this simple

01:18:05   we're just going to put up a little sliding notification II thing that says

01:18:09   oh, I'm now opening this app that you asked me to open and that would probably be fine.

01:18:14   That would be the easier thing to do. I think the long run they just need to embrace this one.

01:18:18   My mac will call him a couple weeks ago. Just embrace it right like just let people be able to paste in new icons.

01:18:23   Like it's fine do that. Let's do that Adrian asks the next generation consoles.

01:18:30   You going with Xbox PlayStation 5 neither both or undecided.

01:18:37   My son has determined that we will get the PS 5.

01:18:42   Okay, as he says that the title the software the titles on it are better.

01:18:47   And so even though we've got a ps4 and an Xbox and in fact,

01:18:49   we were I would say we were an Xbox primary house before he is

01:18:53   more excited about the PS 5 and he did he determines everything in our house.

01:18:57   Yeah, so yeah, he's the gamer. I am PlayStation 5 primarily for the same reason as your son,

01:19:06   but I have also ordered the Xbox series s the cheaper one because the price is so good.

01:19:13   It's 250 dollars 250 pounds. It's kind of like I already do pay for Xbox game pass.

01:19:22   So yeah, you know, yeah, I'm not just go for it and we

01:19:27   and we will probably end up there too because it's not like we don't have an Xbox one X

01:19:31   and a and a ps4 in our house right now.

01:19:34   In fact, I was playing Star Wars squadrons on the psvr.

01:19:38   I heard about this on the secret podcast.

01:19:40   I'm very surprised to hear that you got a psvr as well,

01:19:44   but we can maybe talk about that another time,

01:19:46   but I want to know what you think of squadrons because I'm wondering if it's a game that I want to get.

01:19:51   Yeah, I mean it yeah it it I'm terrible at it because I'm terrible at video games,

01:19:56   but it's fun and I loved x-wing and tie fighter a million years ago in like the 90s when those were games game.

01:20:03   It is hard. It is hard. But you know what?

01:20:05   I am a big believer in easy mode and short or it's called here is story mode and it's like,

01:20:13   oh, is it super easy? Yeah, that's because you know what?

01:20:16   I don't need the challenge. I just want to have fun flying around in space and see the story right

01:20:20   and so that's why they make it easy mode a story mode and that's what I what I use.

01:20:24   But yeah, it was fun. I've only played the little intro part.

01:20:28   So I've got more to do there but but I have played some great psvr games.

01:20:32   We should talk about that at some point James Thompson hooked me up with the best psvr games

01:20:36   and I have not been disappointed with his selections.

01:20:40   Johan asks when you watch Apple events live.

01:20:43   Do you watch them on YouTube or the Apple website?

01:20:48   I'm old school. So I use the Apple website. Yeah, me too.

01:20:51   I've always done that. So I just always I just keep doing it.

01:20:55   I like to watch them on my Apple TV and you know,

01:20:58   the Apple TV app for Apple events is better than the YouTube app is for its purpose on the Apple TV.

01:21:06   I think that's true and Molly's asks Molly's opens and closes the show today above snow talk

01:21:11   and ask upgrade in your opinion.

01:21:14   Is there value in sleep tracking? I think there's oh boy.

01:21:21   I've never done it which is why I wanted to ask like I've never done it

01:21:25   because I don't particularly want to wear so a device while sleeping,

01:21:29   but I'm I'm open to trying it. I have tried it.

01:21:35   I think I think it depends on who you are. I'm a big like life logging person.

01:21:40   I'm fascinated by keeping various stats about stuff

01:21:44   and even I look at sleep tracking and things like I think I think sleep tracking is important.

01:21:50   If you have an issue with sleep and you are trying to figure it out perhaps with a doctor,

01:21:54   perhaps not I think I think it can have value there.

01:22:00   I think that what Apple is trying to do is impose structure on people.

01:22:04   It's a very Apple thing to do with the Apple watch where they're trying to impose a sleep structure on people

01:22:09   because there is apparently a lot of medical evidence that the solution to people with sleep problems is you set a bedtime every time every day

01:22:18   and then you a wake-up time every day and you do that and you get in a rhythm

01:22:22   and if you're one of these people who kind of meanders and maybe they go to bed at 10 or 11 or 12 or 1,

01:22:27   but like whatever it's all over the place and they get up whenever that that's worse for your sleep.

01:22:31   And so I appreciate that Apple is making that using that approach

01:22:38   as somebody who doesn't have sleep problems.

01:22:39   I refuse to live that way.

01:22:42   Like I was listening to John Gruber and Ben Thompson talk about this and again Ben pointed out,

01:22:47   you know, the guy without a job basically,

01:22:50   you know, of course, you can go to bed whenever he wants and I feel the same way

01:22:54   but at the same time like the idea that I'm going to set a bedtime for myself

01:22:58   and that like the Apple watch is going to enforce it like I generally know when I go back to bed

01:23:04   and I generally know when I turn off the light but I decide when I want to do that and I don't go.

01:23:10   Oh, no, my watch tells me I have to go to sleepy time now.

01:23:14   Yes. Yes watch. Yeah, I will do what you say.

01:23:17   I hate that. I hate it. If I was going to do it.

01:23:19   I wouldn't want to use Apple's version of it for that reason, right?

01:23:23   Right, but I get why Apple does it that way.

01:23:24   This is the thing is as much as it frustrates me.

01:23:27   I know that one of the most primary bits of advice for people who are having sleep problems is go to bed.

01:23:34   You bed at the same time every day like that is actually an answer

01:23:37   because your body wants to have the rhythm of it.

01:23:40   So is there value in sleep tracking?

01:23:42   I'm sure there is if you're having a problem sleeping.

01:23:45   I don't think there's value in it and like I crushed my sleep rings,

01:23:48   right where it's like I got my eight hours.

01:23:51   I'm killing it. I think that is a waste of time.

01:23:55   If you would like to send in questions for the show to send an update with the hashtag ask upgrade,

01:24:01   but of course don't forget send in your questions for Tim Millet and Tom Berger from Apple on our next episode.

01:24:06   A14 Bionic, iPad Air and Apple Silicon are the focuses of the conversation.

01:24:11   I will just say this you can feel free to ask what you want,

01:24:14   right, but I have told you what we're talking about.

01:24:18   So if you want a question to be asked on the show keep those rules in mind.

01:24:23   If you are going to ask us a question to ask them what the next iPhone is going to be called.

01:24:28   It's not going to get asked on the show, right?

01:24:31   We're not going to waste our time or more importantly actually we're not going to waste their time.

01:24:36   You know, like we have our topics of conversation.

01:24:39   So that's going to be what we're going to talk about.

01:24:42   You can send those questions in with the hashtag ask upgrade

01:24:45   or if in the real AFM members Discord the question mark ask upgrade.

01:24:49   There is a benefit to that because you can ask way longer questions in the Discord

01:24:54   if you want to for whatever reason bear that in mind for ask upgrade

01:24:57   or Snell Talk because we don't have the Twitter character limit there.

01:25:01   Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode.

01:25:04   If you want episodes of upgrade with more content and no ads go to get upgrade plus.com

01:25:11   and become a member sign up and you can get access to that.

01:25:14   It's a get upgrade plus.com.

01:25:16   Thanks to SaneBox KiwiCo and Squarespace for the support of this episode

01:25:22   and we'll be back next time until then say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:25:25   Goodbye everybody.

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