0:00:00[music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 311. Today's show is brought to you by Mint Mobile,
0:00:15Pingdom, and Bombus. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell.
0:00:20Ahoy, Myke Hurley. How are you today? Good. Got a lot going on this week. Big episode again.
0:00:27Oh boy. This summer is summer of news. It's a purely 2020 phenomenon, summer of news.
0:00:36It turns out nobody has anything else better to do, so here we all are.
0:00:39I have a #SnellTalk question that comes from The Harbor Master, which sounds very—
0:00:44Ahoy. Yeah, I know. It sounds very official.
0:00:48The Harbor Master desires to know, Jason, do you set your calendar to view day, week, month, or year?
0:00:56I assume he means—he or she, the Harbor Master means my computer calendar.
0:01:02Yeah.
0:01:03Because the paper calendar on my wall is set to month.
0:01:05Yeah.
0:01:07Because it's—
0:01:09What do you use the paper calendar for?
0:01:10We have it posted in the living room and it's sort of like quick reference and you can write
0:01:15things down on it and we put down like when we need to give the pets their pills and—
0:01:18Right, like the family calendar.
0:01:19And it's got—right, and it's got pictures of the family on it from the previous year,
0:01:24which is going to be a problem. The 2021 calendar is going to need to be a greatest hits calendar,
0:01:27because—although I suggested that the 2021 calendar be the four of us sitting on the couch
0:01:33in the exact same pose—
0:01:34Oh, that's good.
0:01:34—but with different clothes for every single month. And it'd be like, yep.
0:01:38Or like, you know, like there's like a collection of things building, right? Like, I don't know,
0:01:43like seltzer cans or something like on a table over the year.
0:01:45Exactly. Mm-hmm.
0:01:46I think that's a great idea, personally.
0:01:48We do have that. And on my computer, I always use a week view,
0:01:54because I want to see what's coming up, not just today. I don't have enough—especially
0:01:59now that I'm on my own here—I don't have enough stuff to need to like laser focus on what's
0:02:07happening today. I want to know what's happening today, but I also want to know kind of like what
0:02:10I've got for the week, what the traffic is out there for the week, and the stuff I have to
0:02:14have to do and prepare for and be ready for. So, week view for me.
0:02:18I kind of have a hybrid approach. So I use Fantastic Calendar on my devices, right? And I have
0:02:25a—like on the side, on the left-hand side, is I think what they call kind of like list view
0:02:30or agenda view.
0:02:31Yeah, sure.
0:02:32Which just lists all of my tasks over the coming days. And then if I'm using a version of the app,
0:02:38whether it's on the Mac or on my iPad, with a larger canvas, I'll then have month view.
0:02:43And I don't really look at that side, to be honest. Like, I focus pretty much all of my
0:02:49attention on the list view, but the month is there if I need it. Like, for me, like the week view
0:02:55doesn't help me too much because I use the list thing, because I get most of my week just looking
0:03:01at the list view.
0:03:02So what I like about the week view is that it shows the blocks of time. So it's—
0:03:06Definitely good, yeah.
0:03:08And again, if I'm trying to, as you know, schedule sort of my life through what the time is,
0:03:14having an entry in a list, which—and the month view is like that too, it's just a list,
0:03:19each day has a little list on it—doesn't serve the purpose of saying, "Here's a big block where
0:03:25you're doing this."
0:03:26No. If you are someone who thinks about their calendars, which,
0:03:30assuming most people do, in that way of like, there is a block of time and things don't overlap,
0:03:35like, I mean, for me, I kind of, I have a base idea of everything that goes on my calendar,
0:03:42like, it's always expected to be an hour unless I know it to be otherwise.
0:03:46But the—yeah, that makes—it makes a lot of sense to have week view for that reason, right?
0:03:52Because as you say, you can see what's bumping into each other and if you actually have the
0:03:56space to put something in, so.
0:03:58Yeah.
0:03:58Thank you to the HarbourMaster. If you would like to send in—
0:04:02Ding ding!
0:04:02Ding ding!
0:04:03A question for a future episode of the show, you can send out a tweet with the hashtag
0:04:07#snowtalk or use question mark #snowtalk in the RelayFM members Discord.
0:04:12I want to give a bit of follow out. Tomorrow, which is August 18th, is RelayFM's sixth birthday.
0:04:17It doesn't feel like it's that time because usually around this time, I am somewhere,
0:04:22whether it's in Memphis or somewhere else, you know?
0:04:24And you're nowhere now.
0:04:25So it doesn't really have the typical birthday feel to it, but it is now, it's happening.
0:04:32The RelayFM members bonus specials are starting to roll out.
0:04:36We'll have more to say about that for this show in the coming weeks.
0:04:39But myself and Steven will be hosting a live stream on Twitch tomorrow, which is August
0:04:4618th at 11.30 AM Eastern Time.
0:04:49We're going to be doing a RelayFM Q&A, so we've been taking questions from listeners.
0:04:56If you want to submit one of those, you can send a tweet with the hashtag #relayqa.
0:05:00But we've been taking questions from listeners over the last couple of weeks,
0:05:02and we have some great questions there.
0:05:03I'm also making a great announcement.
0:05:05I'm very excited about something important that we have coming up soon.
0:05:09So you can check that out at twitch.tv/relayfm.
0:05:13And it's 11.30 AM Eastern Time tomorrow.
0:05:16So you can go and check that out.
0:05:18We appreciate it if you'll join us.
0:05:20I have some upstream headlines for you, Jason.
0:05:23Okay.
0:05:24Martin Scorsese has signed a first look deal with Apple TV for both film and television
0:05:32projects.
0:05:32It's quite an individual to get a first look with.
0:05:36MATT ELLIS, MATT ELLIS, MATT ELLIS.
0:05:38Martin Scorsese has been doing a lot of interesting development stuff lately, I think, because
0:05:43he wants to make movies the way he has always made them.
0:05:46And these days, getting involved with companies that have lots of money for that instead of
0:05:52the traditional film route is how he is able to keep doing it.
0:05:56But there's a lot of prestige that goes in working with Martin Scorsese.
0:05:59And I think it's interesting that Apple now -- first look deal means that Apple gets first
0:06:04chance to say yes to it.
0:06:05And if they say no, he can shop it somewhere else.
0:06:07But Apple gets the first pass.
0:06:08And, you know, you said like one of the reasons that Martin Scorsese's last two movies have
0:06:16ended up one going to Netflix and one going to Apple.
0:06:19Was it Paramount that he was working with previously?
0:06:23Oh, I don't remember.
0:06:24I don't remember.
0:06:24Whatever studio it was, I think it was Paramount who previously had a deal with Scorsese.
0:06:29Basically, it was just like we can't afford -- neither do we want to spend the money you
0:06:33want to spend.
0:06:34And you're right, it's Paramount.
0:06:35Paramount is where he was.
0:06:36Great.
0:06:36But the tech companies, the streaming companies have the money and want the content.
0:06:43We'll spend it.
0:06:43So it makes a lot of sense for him to do this.
0:06:47Like when you think about it, really, like it's probably just a matter of time until
0:06:51he ended up signing this deal with someone.
0:06:53Apple has the deepest pockets, would be my assumption.
0:06:56I think I missed this.
0:06:58I saw it in the Deadline report talking about Scorsese, but Leonardo DiCaprio's production
0:07:03company Appian Way has also in August signed a first look deal with Apple.
0:07:09But this is just for TV and documentaries.
0:07:13Ah.
0:07:13So, you know, I don't -- when I saw this, I was like, oh, wow, movie -- but no, not
0:07:20movies.
0:07:22So, you know, it's just more and more huge names being attached to Apple, which is, I'm
0:07:26sure, very important to them.
0:07:28Apple is also going to be adapting the children's novel Harriet the Spy into an animated TV
0:07:34show.
0:07:34I was a big fan of the Nickelodeon movie as a kid, so I was kind of excited to see this.
0:07:39I don't know if literally anybody else remembers the Harriet the Spy Nickelodeon movie, but
0:07:45I really did.
0:07:45I actually -- for whatever age I was at the time, Jason, it was my birthday party that
0:07:51year, was to go see that movie in the cinema.
0:07:53Wow.
0:07:54And I went with my family, and everybody hated it except for me, and to this day, I'm still
0:08:01teased for this because I was the only person who could stand it, probably because I was
0:08:06the exact right age range.
0:08:08Well, that was 1996.
0:08:10So, how old was I in '96?
0:08:13I don't want to know.
0:08:15I was --
0:08:16Steven Hackett was 10.
0:08:17I was eight.
0:08:18I was eight years old.
0:08:19Oh, boy.
0:08:20I actually have a very vivid memory of seeing that movie.
0:08:23I don't know why it's such a big movie for me, like why this is such a thing for me as
0:08:29a kid, but it was.
0:08:30And lastly, for Upstream today, we're going to talk about Apple News.
0:08:35The Wall Street Journal apparently very happy with the Apple News deal at the moment.
0:08:41News court CEO Robert Thompson was quoted by the New York Post as saying, "The Apple
0:08:46News partnership allows us to focus on a tier of content and bring in a significantly new
0:08:52audience that we would hope to graduate to a paid Wall Street Journal subscription over
0:08:57time, and it is a genuinely different audience.
0:09:00It's actually of late more women than men.
0:09:03For the Wall Street Journal itself, it's more men than women."
0:09:06I found that kind of interesting.
0:09:07This is like a similar thing that I know that I've seen and other podcasters have seen with
0:09:12Spotify, that the demographics of Spotify listenership are different to typical demographics.
0:09:19So add to the overall pie.
0:09:22You know, like a lot of people said that like Spotify isn't particularly stealing from other
0:09:27people for their podcast stuff.
0:09:28They are adding to the podcast listenership.
0:09:31So it's a similar thing.
0:09:32So like for whatever reason, the demographics picking up this content via Apple News are
0:09:38different to the typical demographic that is signing up for the Wall Street Journal independently.
0:09:44I just found this funny because it's the first time I've ever seen anybody positively talk
0:09:50about Apple News.
0:09:51Yeah, right.
0:09:52And for those who don't remember, Wall Street Journal is doing like a subset of content
0:09:56that's available.
0:09:57So it's not...
0:10:00The argument was going to be like, "Well, why don't I cancel my Wall Street Journal
0:10:04subscription and subscribe to Apple News Plus?"
0:10:06And the answer is you're not going to get the whole Wall Street Journal.
0:10:09You're going to get some articles in search and some articles that float to the top, but
0:10:11there are going to be things that are there.
0:10:14So it's interesting.
0:10:16It's like the idea of doing a subset in Apple News Plus.
0:10:20I wonder, it's probably more work than it's worth for most sites to do that, but it is
0:10:26interesting that this is an approach that's working for the Wall Street Journal, given
0:10:29that we, like you said, haven't had a lot of companies say, "Yeah, Apple News Plus is
0:10:34great."
0:10:35So maybe this hybrid approach where they give some premium content into Apple News Plus,
0:10:41but not the whole thing, is a more successful approach.
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0:12:53Summer of news, this is a big story.
0:12:57Really I think what we need to come up with some name here to try and tie these last couple
0:13:02of months together, because really it's been the summer of App Store problems.
0:13:07It feels like this is becoming a hotter and hotter issue all the time, and now Epic have
0:13:13entered the fray in a, pun intended, quite epic way, honestly.
0:13:18So I want to give an abridged history of what's happened over the last few days, in case you
0:13:23are unaware, and also just to set the stage for the conversation.
0:13:27So last Thursday, Epic activated a new feature in the Fortnite app that allowed for players
0:13:34on iOS and Android to choose to pay in app via Epic's payment system for VBucks, which
0:13:40is the game credits inside of Fortnite, and they would get a 20% discount for doing so.
0:13:45So if you used Epic's system instead of Apple's or Google's, they would give you a discount.
0:13:51This is obviously very clearly against the rules for the Play Store and the App Store,
0:13:56and they kind of snuck it in, right?
0:13:58So the app had been approved by multiple days, and then they updated it.
0:14:05One of the things about games compared to other applications is you can update some
0:14:09of the content in the background.
0:14:11This is a thing that happens a lot with lots of games, especially large games.
0:14:15Apple even supports the ability for developers to do this, especially on the Apple TV is
0:14:19another great example of them doing this.
0:14:21So you can effectively update stuff that's going on in the background, or maybe they
0:14:25hid it.
0:14:26I hope one day we do actually find out exactly what they did here, because it's interesting
0:14:30to say the least.
0:14:31There is also a possibility that Fortnite just doesn't get reviewed astringently because
0:14:36it's such a big deal.
0:14:38Who knows?
0:14:39Anyway, Fortnite, well, Epic actually had a bunch of press releases about this.
0:14:44They wrote news articles about it.
0:14:46They weren't quiet about it.
0:14:48So Apple booted them from the app store.
0:14:51Epic immediately filed a lawsuit and started a marketing campaign which featured a spoof
0:14:56of Apple's 1984 commercial.
0:14:58They called it 1980 Fortnite, positioning Apple as Big Brother.
0:15:02I watched the commercial.
0:15:04I think they did a very good job of it.
0:15:07It's funny and it fits their brand.
0:15:10And when you hear the stuff that the Apple Big Brother is saying, I think it's kind of
0:15:15hard to argue with, like, whether it's correct or not, the position that they pose is difficult
0:15:21to argue with, I think.
0:15:22I've seen some people say that they thought it was clever.
0:15:26I don't think it was clever.
0:15:27I think it was really obvious and hacky.
0:15:28And if you had told me that Epic Games was going to be releasing a video later in the
0:15:33day about what they had done to Apple, I would have been able to literally write the script
0:15:39for the video that they released.
0:15:40It was super dumb and super obvious.
0:15:44Clever and obvious can't be the same thing.
0:15:48It is the clever move to do.
0:15:49Like, it's the move you do.
0:15:51If you want to show Apple as being a tyrant, you just position it back on themselves.
0:15:58Lazy.
0:15:59Lazy.
0:16:00We're going to disagree a lot on this over the next 45 minutes.
0:16:03We are.
0:16:04It's going to happen.
0:16:05Epic, like, just to be clear, the way you recapped this is it comes across potentially as being
0:16:13a sequence of events, but it's not.
0:16:16It's one event.
0:16:17Epic decided to break the rules of the Play Store and the App Store knowing they would
0:16:22get kicked out or locked out or shut off or whatever you want to say about it.
0:16:27And then they immediately had lawsuits ready to file and they immediately had a viral video
0:16:31ready to go.
0:16:32Unfortunately, they don't seem to have done the obvious Don't Be Evil video for Google
0:16:35Play.
0:16:36I don't know what happened there.
0:16:37Did they not have that one ready in time?
0:16:38So it's not as interesting.
0:16:41This is their campaign.
0:16:43And you know, the issue is an important one, but I rolled my eyes at the 1984 thing because
0:16:49I just think that's super obvious and lazy and I don't appreciate the...
0:16:54I don't think it's clever.
0:16:57I think it's an easy shot and worth taking if you're epic.
0:17:00I will say that.
0:17:01But I don't think it's clever.
0:17:02I think it's literally the most obvious thing they could have done.
0:17:07Google also then booted them from the Play Store and Epic immediately followed with a
0:17:11lawsuit for Google too.
0:17:13I will...
0:17:14I'm not...
0:17:15Of course.
0:17:16...this is the state of events.
0:17:18Of course they had all this ready.
0:17:19They had to have it all ready.
0:17:20They knew this was going to happen.
0:17:21It was the point of doing it, right?
0:17:23Like Epic was not surprised that this chain of events unfolded.
0:17:27This was the plan.
0:17:28This is exactly what they expected and it happened exactly as they planned.
0:17:32I think this is a very well orchestrated and coordinated campaign to try and force the
0:17:36hand of Google and especially Apple.
0:17:38That's my feeling on this.
0:17:39I think it's a very clever chess move.
0:17:41I can roll my eyes at...
0:17:43It feels to me like Epic wanted to have their cake and eat it too in the sense that they
0:17:48wanted to play the aggrieved party and get some of the credibility that you've seen by
0:17:54other kind of App Store outrages where companies do things kind of innocently and are swept
0:17:59up in the disaster of Apple's opaque App Store process.
0:18:05I got the feeling like they wanted to have some of that outrage accumulate to them and
0:18:10they don't deserve any of it because this was...
0:18:14This is a chess move and it's a very clever one and it puts Apple in a very difficult
0:18:18position.
0:18:19I think that's all smart.
0:18:20But I roll my eyes at the kind of like, "Is Epic the aggrieved party here?"
0:18:25No, this is a shot that they fired.
0:18:28They're not like other...
0:18:30Like a lot of other companies have had serious problems with Apple regarding the App Store
0:18:36and they've stepped into them.
0:18:38And it's an example where Apple is incredibly powerful and doesn't explain itself and its
0:18:41rules are arbitrary and people's businesses are put into jeopardy because of it.
0:18:46And I feel like Epic was sort of like playing that part, but that's not the point of what
0:18:51they're doing at all.
0:18:52I mean, I don't feel that way about them.
0:18:55Like I feel about this the same way that I felt about xCloud last time.
0:19:00Like the reason that if, you know, I kind of look at this and like, I think Epic should
0:19:07do this is because I do not believe that Apple are in a position right now where they should
0:19:12get to dictate to every company in the world the way that the rules are played.
0:19:16Yep, not disputing that.
0:19:18That's what I meant when I said that I thought that this was a smart move on their part strategically.
0:19:23I just, I think that they also want to wrap, at least initially want to wrap themselves
0:19:29in the, you know, essentially they played like they were a victim and then did the big
0:19:36reveal that they're, "Ha ha, but we are not.
0:19:38This was all part of our plan."
0:19:40As somebody who has written and spoken too much about the people who actually get rolled
0:19:44over by Apple with these policies, I didn't love that, but you know, it is what it is.
0:19:50All right.
0:19:51I mean, I slightly do disagree with you because I just think that like they had a lawsuit
0:19:56right?
0:19:57Like if they wanted to just be like, "Oh, look what they've done to us," they wouldn't
0:20:02have like thrown their money behind this lawsuit.
0:20:05Like it's, I think it's a different situation to the previous examples like, Hey, for example,
0:20:10right?
0:20:11Like I don't think like, you know, Hey, Basecamp were leaning on the fact that they were hoping
0:20:16that people would get outraged on their behalf to try and make a change.
0:20:24Epic are doing a thing where they are forcing it to happen via a marketing campaign and
0:20:29a lawsuit.
0:20:30I think it's, I see it as a different thing.
0:20:33Nevertheless.
0:20:34Well, publicity probably more than marketing because they're not really marketing their
0:20:37product here.
0:20:38They're just trying to get publicity for their policy change that they want to happen.
0:20:42Sure.
0:20:43So the situation is slightly different on an Android.
0:20:47It's actually very different than Android.
0:20:49And I'm not saying this is a case of like Epic should target Apple, but I think it's
0:20:53worth bringing it up in case people are not aware of it.
0:20:57So everybody knows that Android has sideloading, which means you can install apps from other
0:21:02places and alternate payment methods exist on the Play Store, but not for games.
0:21:09So Google make any game use the Play Store's in-app purchase method for things like credits
0:21:17in a game.
0:21:19And so when Fortnite launched, they actually created their own Fortnite launcher and tried
0:21:26to basically make it work that way.
0:21:28They did some partnerships with some companies like Samsung and tried to really kind of force
0:21:34people to get Fortnite from there.
0:21:37But it didn't work out the way that Epic wanted because Google tries very hard to persuade
0:21:42users not to turn on sideloading features.
0:21:45They put warnings and stuff.
0:21:46So they ended up putting, well, they think they've any.
0:21:50So for 18 months, they tried the sideloading thing and they, anybody who's used a Mac where
0:21:55you try to launch an app and it says, oh, this app wasn't signed or tries to turn on, turn
0:22:01off certain security settings, like to launch unauthorized apps, there are apps that aren't
0:22:05from the app store or whatever.
0:22:07And you get one of those scare warnings, scare dialogues.
0:22:09It's like, watch out.
0:22:10This is, you know, it could be, it could be dangerous.
0:22:13And Catalina has actually ramped up the language there of like, you know, potentially we can't
0:22:17check to make sure this isn't evil basically.
0:22:20And so after 18 months, Fortnite, Epic said, you know, we have to be in the Google Play
0:22:25Store because essentially we can't get enough customers on Android because we have to walk
0:22:29them through this complicated process and tell them to avoid all these scare warnings.
0:22:34And it isn't, it isn't effective.
0:22:37And so even though they made that, they released the statement, which is just basically like,
0:22:40even though we despise this, we're going to be in the Play Store because we can't make
0:22:43sideloading work, which I think is actually super relevant because I think it undercuts
0:22:49one of the counter arguments about like what Apple could do, which is what if Apple turned
0:22:53on sideloading?
0:22:54And I think that Epic's argument is it would be worse, a worse experience even than sideloading
0:23:01on Android is because it's Apple.
0:23:04And they tried it on Android and it didn't work.
0:23:09So I think that's, I think it's an interesting perspective that the idea is that Google as
0:23:14a platform owner put up a lot of barriers for good reasons, I would say, but a lot of
0:23:19barriers to the sideloading thing.
0:23:21And so even though we view what happens on Android and what happens on Apple's platforms
0:23:27as different, it's not as different as you might think because you kind of really have
0:23:33to have the Play Store and you kind of really have to be in the Play Store.
0:23:37And as a result, Google doesn't have quite the level of control that Apple does, but
0:23:41it has a lot of control.
0:23:43And then for games, as you said, they want 30% and they're, you know, that's, and they
0:23:50want you to use their payment system.
0:23:52And there are some, they're very similar reasons, right?
0:23:54The argument is one, that there's a lot of sleazy kind of game stuff out there that they
0:23:58want to not have happen through, you know, alternate payment methods.
0:24:03And two, it's a lot of money that they get.
0:24:06So these are both reasons that they do it.
0:24:08- I think it's money.
0:24:11I think it's more money.
0:24:12- I think it's both.
0:24:13I think it's both because early on in the App Store, if you recall, there were lots
0:24:18of issues about abuse of even in-app purchases for games.
0:24:23And I think, so I do think that there's an aspect of, we're worried about shady digital
0:24:29goods, you know, factories that are gonna steal, you know, a kid's money, basically.
0:24:37And so I get that argument, but I think you're right, that that argument is then used to
0:24:43be a moneymaker.
0:24:44Because I don't really see how that has played out.
0:24:49You know, all of this credit business to speed up time and all that kind of stuff, all of
0:24:55that exists in apps in both the Play Store and the App Store.
0:25:00It's still sleazy, it's still shady, but it's just in the stores, right?
0:25:05So I agree that they positioned, both Google and Apple positioned it that way, but I don't
0:25:10think they followed through on that.
0:25:14Epic still offer Fortnite outside and they have their own game store on the PC and the
0:25:19Mac, and it seems like they are still planning on bringing a version of the Epic Game Store
0:25:25to Android, which would then be a third-party store, which again, you can do on Android.
0:25:31Like it's possible to do that.
0:25:34But as of yet, they haven't done that.
0:25:37And Google and Epic have had an increasingly difficult relationship in the sense that it's
0:25:44been, this actually came out in some of the antitrust stuff from a couple of weeks ago,
0:25:49that Google has been forcing device makers to not do deals with Epic to preload this
0:25:55stuff.
0:25:56There was some news of them, OnePlus was going to work with Epic to put this, to preload
0:26:03Fortnite, and I think a version of the Epic Game Store onto their devices and Google kind
0:26:07of stepped in and was like, "You like the Play Store, right?" and put the end to that.
0:26:13So I think clearly Epic is focusing more on Apple for two reasons.
0:26:18I think reason one, which is minor, is there are no other workarounds.
0:26:23It's Apple's way or the highway.
0:26:25It's a more extreme example than Google, so it's easier to understand.
0:26:29You don't have to have what I just spent two minutes describing of the barriers to side
0:26:34loading.
0:26:35You can just say it doesn't have it.
0:26:36It's simple.
0:26:37And also I think for a lot of people, a lot of customers, Google is actually removed in
0:26:41their mind from the Android discussion, right?
0:26:44Because there's so many device makers who run various versions of Android.
0:26:48Some have the Play Store, some don't.
0:26:51But I think the bigger reason is Epic are focusing their ire on Apple because it works
0:26:55for publicity.
0:26:57People are willing to believe it because a lot of it's true, and Apple is an easy company
0:27:03to hate for a lot of people, right?
0:27:05Like it's an easy thing to do.
0:27:07BRIAN: They are an easier target and there's a clearer story to be told.
0:27:11I'm actually surprised that they made the move on the Play Store and sued Google on
0:27:19the same day because it does...
0:27:24It broadens their case in a way that I think is really interesting and I think maybe will
0:27:29be uncomfortable for Google, honestly.
0:27:32But it does dilute their message a little bit.
0:27:35MATT: It does.
0:27:36I think they would have preferred for Google not to do it, but I think it was kind of like
0:27:43they had to follow suit, right?
0:27:45Because I think Epic want to do what they can to minimize any bad feelings towards them
0:27:51and that it might have gotten a bit awry in the press, especially if Google did the same
0:27:57thing and Epic didn't retaliate in any way.
0:28:00I think they would have preferred to get a little distance on it because spreading it
0:28:04out to Android as well as iOS kind of, as you say, like it dilutes their most important
0:28:10message that they can get across, which is monolithic Apple, big brother Apple, doing
0:28:17the thing you know they're going to do.
0:28:19So my expectation when I saw this starting to unfold is that this is the end of a negotiation,
0:28:26right there.
0:28:27You've got to assume that Apple and Epic have been talking, right?
0:28:30Like, you know, it's like any of these big companies, they will be having conversations,
0:28:35especially because Epic's been very public about their feelings towards app stores and
0:28:40taxes and all that kind of stuff.
0:28:42And my expectation is Epic have come to realize that they are not going to get what they want,
0:28:47so they chose to be very public with it because I think it's clear at this point that if Apple
0:28:54don't want to do something, no company is going to make them do it.
0:28:57They might meet you halfway.
0:28:58We've seen them literally meet companies halfway, but what Epic won is clearly more than halfway,
0:29:06right?
0:29:07And so I think what they've done, I think this is pretty obvious, right, that they are
0:29:11hoping that they can get either public or legal pressure to force Apple's hand to move
0:29:18where they want them to move, right?
0:29:22So the lawsuit is interesting to look through, but there's one kind of key paragraph which
0:29:29I'll read for the sake of having it in here, which kind of clearly outlines what Epic are
0:29:33wanting.
0:29:34So it says, "But for Apple's legal restraints, Epic will provide a competing app store on
0:29:38iOS devices which would allow iOS users to download apps in an innovative curated store
0:29:44and would provide users the choice to use Epic's or another third party's in-app payment
0:29:48processing tools."
0:29:49So they are asking for alternate payment methods and alternate app stores.
0:29:54I think the latter is a bit of a push and Epic knows that, but you always ask for more
0:29:59than you want.
0:30:00You ask for more than you want, right?
0:30:02And so I think what...
0:30:03So look, it's easy to read that paragraph and I see a lot of people do it and they go,
0:30:08"Epic wants all my money, they want an alternate app store," and that's that, right?
0:30:11Like, and I see it, right?
0:30:12They would love it, but they know they're not going to get that, right?
0:30:16Like realistically, they know they're not going to get that unless a government forces
0:30:21that, and I don't think we're at that point yet.
0:30:25But I think that we are, with this lawsuit especially, getting much closer to Apple not
0:30:31being able to force people to use their payment system.
0:30:37So, like, should Epic get what they want here?
0:30:42What do you think?
0:30:43- Well, I mean, ultimately what Epic wants is as much money as it can possibly get, because
0:30:50this is all about money.
0:30:52And again, there are so many issues that we talk about on a regular basis here about the
0:30:58opacity of the approval process and other things that really can hurt, especially smaller
0:31:03iOS developers.
0:31:06Although the 30% cut does hurt them, I also know a lot of people who've made a quite sustainable
0:31:11business even with Apple's 30% cut and they get the advantages of being in the app store
0:31:15and all those things.
0:31:16And even if it changed, they would potentially just stay with it as it is because it's so
0:31:22convenient.
0:31:23If you're a big money generator with a huge amount of cash flowing through the app store,
0:31:27then this is the issue, which is, if your business is entirely based on in-app purchases,
0:31:33then this is the issue and that's what it's about.
0:31:36Should they get what they want?
0:31:39For me, the big issue here is basically who owns app stores and who controls them and
0:31:48what should the rules be?
0:31:50And that's a big issue and there's a lot to go on, a lot to process there, right?
0:31:56Because there's the fact that Apple made it and it's theirs and it runs on their hardware.
0:32:05And you could argue that it is like a video game console.
0:32:08It is a thing that's completely controlled.
0:32:10And I am sympathetic to the idea that Apple made it, Apple owns it, Apple can do what
0:32:16they want with it because it's theirs and they own it.
0:32:20It's theirs.
0:32:21They made the whole thing.
0:32:22It's not even like Android where it's open source and then different manufacturers have
0:32:27different phones that run it and all of that.
0:32:29Like the iPhone and the app store, it's like of a piece.
0:32:32It is what it is.
0:32:33It is a single kind of thing.
0:32:36It's not hardware, it's not software, it's not service, it's everything put together
0:32:39and that's what Apple does.
0:32:42On the other hand, when we look at the importance of smartphones, and this is where I think
0:32:48bringing Google into it even though it dilutes their argument a little bit is smart, is it
0:32:56calls the question of the importance of smartphones in world society and the fact that people
0:33:05are, it's the most important device anybody owns, everybody has one.
0:33:11And the access to everybody in the world who uses a smartphone is controlled by two American,
0:33:16by the way, companies, corporations.
0:33:19They have built a bridge and now they are manning the toll booth.
0:33:23They have the toll booth and they're going to charge you for it.
0:33:26And I know that this is the, is it a console or is it a general purpose computer argument?
0:33:31But I think it really does matter like as a society because I think that there's a strategy
0:33:39issue here, which is if you're Apple, we can get to this about like, what do you do if
0:33:42you're Apple?
0:33:43And I think the larger question is what do we think as a society about having Apple and
0:33:50Google have this level of power where essentially everything that flows through a smartphone
0:33:58is controlled and taxed by two for-profit corporations.
0:34:04And I find that troubling.
0:34:08And I know that it's a case where maybe Apple and Google are a victim of their own success.
0:34:14You've built something that's yours and you own it, but it's now so important that it's
0:34:18indispensable to the world.
0:34:20And as a result, it's not quite yours anymore.
0:34:23That's a really uncomfortable place to be, but that feels sort of like where we are right
0:34:29now.
0:34:30I also keep thinking, and I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit here, but I keep thinking
0:34:34about how it didn't have to be this way.
0:34:36And this goes back to something we said last week when we were talking about the Xbox streaming
0:34:40services, which is it didn't have to be this way, but Apple has this part of its culture
0:34:45and its personality that is very much the, "We almost died.
0:34:49It's the Steve Jobs.
0:34:50We almost died.
0:34:51We're never going to do that again.
0:34:53We're going to get our money.
0:34:54We're going to get it so that we can stay alive."
0:34:56And now that they're a giant and they control, they have so much money and they control one
0:35:01of the two ways that anybody can have access to a smartphone, they are those policies that
0:35:07were like, "I need the money.
0:35:08We need to stay alive," as well as the, "We need to please Wall Street by growing services
0:35:13revenue."
0:35:14That doesn't come off as well.
0:35:17It doesn't work as well because we're in a different context now, and it leads them to
0:35:21make decisions that are probably not in their long-term best interests.
0:35:27So that's the other thing I would say right now is, "Should Epic get what they want?"
0:35:30That was your question.
0:35:31It's like, well, not everything, but behind Epic's question is a fundamental thing about
0:35:41how Apple has decided to police and monetize and tariff its platforms.
0:35:52And I think that these are all symptoms of a larger problem.
0:35:58So should Epic get what they want?
0:36:00In part because Apple probably needs to do something to counteract the fact that there's
0:36:08another one of these every week now.
0:36:11What exactly they do, they've got some decisions to make.
0:36:15But in the end, we didn't have to get here, but here we are now.
0:36:21With every passing day, Apple is going to have to make an increasingly difficult decision
0:36:24about changing its policies or letting it ride and risking the -- and I'm not being
0:36:28overdramatic here -- the possibility that it will destroy Apple as we know it.
0:36:34I don't think it's overdramatic by any stretch of the imagination.
0:36:39Because you get a government involved, you get a regulator involved, you get a legislature
0:36:43in the US to pass a law that they think does one very specific thing.
0:36:49We've seen this time and again with technology legislation, right?
0:36:52The DMCA or so many of these different laws.
0:36:55And then two years pass and everybody's like, "Oh, did you know it would do this thing?"
0:37:00And the answer is maybe somebody knew somewhere, but like, no, the legislators didn't know,
0:37:05the president didn't know.
0:37:07And whether it's that or whether it's a regulatory, you know, a mandated breakup of a large company
0:37:14through antitrust, like there's so many different ways that once it gets in that world that
0:37:19you could tear apart Apple's business.
0:37:22Like Elizabeth Warren basically said when she was running for president that Apple shouldn't
0:37:26be allowed to run the app store.
0:37:28Like it should be removed from Apple.
0:37:30Like when I say the end of Apple as we know it, it's like literally imagine parts of Apple's
0:37:35business being removed from its purview.
0:37:38Like that could happen if you get the regulators and the legislators involved, which is why
0:37:43if you're Apple, I would think you have to look at that and say, "We have to do anything
0:37:48we can to prevent reaching that point."
0:37:51But then you look how they handled the books thing, which was a catastrophe for them because
0:37:55the book business didn't matter, but like they pressed that to the limit and they lost
0:37:59at every stage and they lost completely.
0:38:07I think there's a lot of time being spent on like a conversation of picking sides when
0:38:13it comes to this debate.
0:38:15Like I feel like it's a thing that I'm seeing old people talking about.
0:38:18And like, and I just think that it isn't about like Epic and Apple, which team are you on?
0:38:27Like, right.
0:38:28Because like I have said many times and my line stays the same.
0:38:33I think we need to see some unwinding of the app store a little.
0:38:38Something's got to give because the situation that we have found ourselves in right now
0:38:44is not good, right, where every week we're having another conversation about the fact
0:38:53that, "Oh, I don't know if I agree with what Apple's doing here."
0:38:57And I think that we continue to go round and around with this point.
0:39:03I kind of don't care which company is in the right or which is in the wrong.
0:39:07The situation has to change because ultimately the situation as it is right now is bad for
0:39:12customers.
0:39:13Like, and an example of this, of like Epic has now created for themselves, which is people
0:39:19that are using a smartphone to play Fortnite, they're not going to get the new content,
0:39:24right?
0:39:25Now, this is a situation where like, well, it's frustrating if you're, if you enjoy that
0:39:30game, but this is because these two behemoths are like smashing against each other, like
0:39:35action figures, right?
0:39:36Being like just bashed against each other by a kid until one of them breaks.
0:39:41But I think at the moment, and I said, I will say this again and again, I think Apple has
0:39:46to break because I do not feel like that we are in the same situation as we were in when
0:39:52Apple launched all this stuff for multiple reasons, right?
0:39:56Like, yes, when Apple started the iPhone and started the app store in 2008, fine, you built
0:40:03it, you got to set the rules, people came.
0:40:07But where we are now is so different.
0:40:11If Apple had decided to not move into services, maybe we could have a different discussion,
0:40:16right?
0:40:17And still say like, no, they are still the arbiter of what they believe is right and
0:40:21wrong.
0:40:22But at this point, they are making many services and products that directly compete with the
0:40:27companies that they enforce rules on without in a lot of cases benefit, right?
0:40:34So like, let's imagine that Apple are still taking 30% from Epic for every transaction
0:40:40Fortnite.
0:40:41How much does Epic have to owe Apple for making their business, right?
0:40:48None, really.
0:40:50Because Fortnite became popular outside of smartphones.
0:40:53And then they created smartphone apps because it became so popular.
0:40:57So people wanted to play everywhere, right?
0:41:00So the original 30%, as it was kind of positioned, which is like, hey, it's like a department
0:41:06store and we're going to put your software on the shelves and people are going to find
0:41:10it and we're going to build your business.
0:41:12Everyone knows we're not in that world anymore, but the rate never changed.
0:41:16It's still 30%.
0:41:17I think the question becomes for, and this is true for Basecamp and for Microsoft and
0:41:23for Epic, which is what value accrues to the iPhone by your being there and what value
0:41:32does your business accrue by being on the iPhone?
0:41:37And that, I think that is the core of Apple's maybe disparity with most other non-Apple
0:41:47observers about it.
0:41:48They think that everyone's business is made better because they make the iPhone.
0:41:52Yeah, they, Apple, I think Apple, and this goes back to that kind of Steve Jobs cultural
0:41:57thing.
0:41:58I think Apple doesn't consider the trade of all of these apps make our phone better and
0:42:08therefore people buy our phone, which has huge margins and we make billions of dollars
0:42:12on and that's a fair transaction.
0:42:15Instead, Apple's like, oh, that's not enough money.
0:42:17We don't make enough money by selling iPhone hardware, the most profitable and successful
0:42:21product in the last 30 years, right?
0:42:25That's not enough.
0:42:26We also want all the money that's on it or 30% of all the money that's on it.
0:42:30That's what we want.
0:42:31And they get offended when somebody like Basecamp builds their business using a free iPhone
0:42:37app and not giving Apple any money.
0:42:39And it's like, okay, but you sell iPhones that make a fortune and Basecamp being on
0:42:44the iPhone helps the iPhone.
0:42:45There's a very strong argument to be made there, but Apple either can't see it or won't
0:42:50see it or part of Apple doesn't want to see it.
0:42:53And I think that that's the big challenge is even if you admit that there's this balance,
0:43:01what is it?
0:43:02And that should be a negotiation, right?
0:43:05That should be a negotiation between Epic and Apple or Microsoft and Apple or Basecamp
0:43:10and Apple, which is how do we make a relationship here where we are giving you your due for
0:43:16providing a payment platform that's super easy and a software platform that gives us
0:43:22access to all these users, but that allows us to run our business because we built our
0:43:28business and these are our customers and not really your customers, or at least they're
0:43:32both of our customers.
0:43:34And I keep coming back to the fact that I think Apple looks at it and says, "No, our
0:43:41policy is the policy."
0:43:43And that's the thing, right?
0:43:44Is that there's no alternative, we set the policy and that's it.
0:43:49That's Apple's attitude.
0:43:50I just really do hate this console computer argument discussion thing.
0:43:56I actually think it's very important to make it because it's a discussion of what do you
0:43:59want a smartphone to be?
0:44:01Do you want the smartphone to be considered a completely locked down system that is completely
0:44:06controlled because that's what consoles are?
0:44:08Or do you want it to be a PC that's completely open?
0:44:10And right now the debate is, and the app stores make it kind of like, "Eh, it's a little bit
0:44:15of both."
0:44:17And Epic's saying, "No, a smartphone should be like a PC."
0:44:21And Apple's essentially saying, "No, it's a console."
0:44:24And the reason I find it useful is not even from this specific argument, but I think from
0:44:28that when we look back at what do we want, how important is the smartphone?
0:44:33If we stop talking about this particular fight and say, "How do we want the world to work?
0:44:37What do we want our governments to do?
0:44:39Our government regulators that are supposed to be protecting us as consumers from these
0:44:43big corporations and creating a market that is free to have competition?"
0:44:53Do we want the smartphone to be treated like a console by all the rules?
0:44:57Or do we want it to be treated like a PC by all the rules?
0:45:02And that's the only way for me that I think it's valuable is not to say, "Well, is it
0:45:08or isn't it," but to say, "Do we want this to change?
0:45:14Do we want our governments to say, 'You know, the smartphone is so important that you can't
0:45:18treat it like a game console.'"
0:45:20Because the alternative—and I'm actually okay with this, I'm actually okay with this,
0:45:24but we all have to be prepared—the alternative, one of them anyway, is to say, "You know
0:45:29what?
0:45:30Epic is right, and nobody can have a closed platform."
0:45:34And there are a lot of ramifications to that, but that would be a consistent argument, right?
0:45:38Which would be, Microsoft and Sony and Nintendo, you also have to open up your platforms if
0:45:44Apple and Google have to do it.
0:45:46And that could happen.
0:45:48It probably won't, but it certainly could.
0:45:51Yeah, you see, it's just—so like, the issue that I have with the complaint is like, with
0:45:58this argument, is like, because Apple treats the iPhone like a console, therefore, it is
0:46:07one, and all other games consoles should be treated just like the iPhone.
0:46:12And I don't like that logic, because it doesn't make any sense to me.
0:46:18The iPhone, the smartphone, too important, too prevalent in our lives, right?
0:46:25When I start getting my Nintendo Switch out on the train, and communicating with my family,
0:46:32doing my work on it, we can then maybe come back to this discussion.
0:46:36But like, I'm not arguing that the Apple TV should be opened up, right?
0:46:43Like, that's fine.
0:46:45But devices, like iOS devices, iPadOS devices, these are general purpose computers.
0:46:52They just are, right?
0:46:53Like everything that people do, that the average person does on a Mac or a PC, they are doing
0:47:00on these devices.
0:47:03If Apple decided that they wanted to just allow you to install Mac apps from the Mac
0:47:09App Store, and said that's how we want to run this now, we wouldn't accept that, because
0:47:15we would say, these devices, this is where I get my work done, I should be able to choose.
0:47:21Just because something has been set that way, doesn't mean that it is the way it should
0:47:28be, right?
0:47:30And I just have this real problem with this idea of like, oh, Apple treated this way,
0:47:35so it has to be this way, and games consoles are exactly the same because they're also
0:47:41closed platforms.
0:47:43I agree with you, I'm just saying that I find it, so you don't like it because you don't
0:47:46like the argument that the iPhone is a console.
0:47:49That's not what I'm saying.
0:47:50I'm saying there's consoles and there's general purpose computers, and what do we want the
0:47:55smartphone to be?
0:47:56I know, I know you're not saying it.
0:47:58We are closer in our thinking here.
0:48:00Yeah, but I get your frustration.
0:48:02But you know, I want to talk, before we wrap this up, I want to talk about what Apple could
0:48:11do, because I think that's the, for me, I hear a lot of people are like, oh, I'm here
0:48:17for the drama, I'm getting my popcorn ready and all that, it's like, oh, I can't, I don't
0:48:22feel that excited about it, because it's going to be a lot of endless, we're, this is, yeah,
0:48:27we're going to have to live with this for years and it's going to be kind of boring
0:48:30and also annoying, but it's super important.
0:48:32But I am fascinated by the idea of what will Apple do to respond to this, because they
0:48:42have some very specific paths.
0:48:46And I'm really curious, and I'd like to know what you think they're going to do, because
0:48:49it seems to me that Apple's options are to make a policy change, right?
0:48:59They could do that.
0:49:00That's the, that's like the last thing they could do.
0:49:02They could let it ride and just fight this and see what happens.
0:49:08But hanging over all of it is this possibility that they will become, this will become an
0:49:13important cause and that an EU regulator or an American government is going to make their
0:49:22business forcibly make their business change.
0:49:26And that's the, that's the huge risk that at least I see in all of this.
0:49:30So I think that's the question is does Apple just say, look, it is what it is, our rules
0:49:36are our rules, we choose to make them and now you must follow them or get out, period.
0:49:41And they fight it on that level.
0:49:44Or do they find some way to make a change that they don't want to make because it'll
0:49:52stave off a bigger change forced upon them from the outside?
0:49:57I think like logically you would, can only come to the conclusion that they will make
0:50:06some kind of policy change, right?
0:50:08Because that just seems like the very clear logical thing to do, that you do something
0:50:13to try and take the heat off.
0:50:16That seems logical.
0:50:17And if you're inside of Apple, in theory, nobody knows how hot that heat is more than
0:50:22them, because they must be aware of it.
0:50:25But the problem that I have with that argument or that kind of thought process is every public
0:50:31statement Apple has made shows that they don't know this.
0:50:36And that's what I find so weird about it because they are choosing to make these public statements.
0:50:42They don't have to say what they're saying, where they keep talking about the fact that
0:50:47like, oh, poor us, everyone's making money on our backs and we never asked for any of
0:50:52it until they needed to charge for it.
0:50:55They keep making this argument.
0:50:57And I feel like you surely know, right?
0:51:01You must know and you're just saying this.
0:51:04I feel like I can't believe any other route here because that would be really wild for
0:51:12like if you genuinely believe this and you're not aware of the risk that falls that could
0:51:18fall upon you because if they don't make a policy change and by policy change, meaning
0:51:23right, like they change how people can pay for stuff on the app store.
0:51:28Someone's going to come in and make them do it.
0:51:30Yeah.
0:51:31And there are ways.
0:51:32Also, here's the thing, because it could be seen as that we're arguing the same thing,
0:51:37right?
0:51:38Like option A is option B and it's not.
0:51:40And the reason it's not is because being told by an outsider, whether it's a judge or a
0:51:44regulator or a legislator, legislature to change your business in a certain way is way worse
0:51:55than you get to write your own mitigation.
0:51:59And because it's the difference between somebody saying, okay, Apple, you have to allow all
0:52:07outside payment systems now and anybody can use whatever they want and you can still offer
0:52:10an outside payment system, but anybody else can do whatever they want.
0:52:15And Apple saying, good news, everybody.
0:52:18We're changing some of our payment policies in the app store.
0:52:21And then you get to set all these things.
0:52:22So you can see like you can use a different system, but it has to follow this rule or
0:52:28it'll get rejected.
0:52:29You can only do it if you're a company that has been in the app store a certain amount
0:52:32of time or has a certain amount of revenue passing through the in-app purchase system.
0:52:37If you come up with a mitigation yourself, you can have it favor you if you're Apple.
0:52:42And that's why you wanna do it now and stave off the rest of this.
0:52:48You wanna do something that makes Epic drop their lawsuit 'cause Epic gets more money
0:52:53and that's what Epic really cares about.
0:52:56And yet still gives Apple control that they might lose if they are forced to do it by
0:53:02a court or by a government of some sort.
0:53:04So that to me is they need to get past though.
0:53:09And what you said, Myke is exactly right, which is the books thing.
0:53:12I keep coming back to the books thing, but the books thing, the Samsung thing, the Qualcomm
0:53:16thing, honestly, we've seen time and again that there are certain things that Apple just
0:53:21does not let go of.
0:53:23And it doesn't always work out for them.
0:53:25Right?
0:53:26So, but this one I think is so potentially catastrophic that I think at some point they're
0:53:30just gonna have to let it go.
0:53:31And the funny thing is that by doing it, they can create an environment that one is better
0:53:35for consumers and that two doesn't preclude them from making a lot of money on the app
0:53:41store.
0:53:42That's the thing that really gets me is the in-app purchase system that Apple provides
0:53:45is super convenient.
0:53:47And I would like them to continue to compete on making it as easy and frictionless as possible
0:53:54and as seamless as possible, because I do believe Apple can make that product so convenient
0:53:58that most people are happy to give Apple 30% or maybe 20% or whatever, because they'll
0:54:02have to compete rather than using some manual system that is less friendly, especially if
0:54:09Apple mandates that that's how you do it.
0:54:11Right?
0:54:12Apple mandates that you have to go to a webpage and enter in a credit card number and you
0:54:15can't see, like they could make all sorts of restrictions to make it less.
0:54:19And they probably would if they could.
0:54:20Right?
0:54:21They could make it so that they have an advantage because that's the story of Apple basically
0:54:27in a nutshell.
0:54:28So I feel like that is the smart thing to do and that they could still make a lot of
0:54:33money and it would be better for consumers.
0:54:37But there are times in my darker times, I remind myself that it's kind of amazing that
0:54:42Apple didn't try to take 30% of all purchases in the app store, including like my Amazon
0:54:46orders for like physical goods.
0:54:49At least they drew the line at physical goods.
0:54:52But it would be very Apple to say, no, we want 30% of everything.
0:54:55At least they chose not to do that.
0:54:56But they're going to need to take, I think they're going to need to take a step back.
0:54:59I think that's the thing that they're going to have to sacrifice is they're going to have
0:55:02to sacrifice mandating that all purchases happen through Apple's payment system.
0:55:09And there are things they could do to mitigate it.
0:55:10Right?
0:55:11Like I think we talked about this last week, but like sign in with Apple and Apple pay.
0:55:14You can make it so that it's super easy to pay and you could even mandate if you're Apple,
0:55:20you could say, okay, you can have an outside account that pays for this, but you have to
0:55:25support sign in with Apple.
0:55:26It's like, okay, we'll do that.
0:55:29Right?
0:55:30Like, and they could grease the skids in a lot of other ways.
0:55:32So I don't know.
0:55:34Not only do I think that that's what Apple should do strategically because the risk of
0:55:38having the government intervene is catastrophic and you just can't, you can't do that.
0:55:44And so you do have to kind of give Epic at least some of what they want, which is money
0:55:47because that's really what they want.
0:55:49And, and, and that's what I think they should do.
0:55:53And honestly, that's what I would like to see as a consumer.
0:55:58What would I like to see?
0:55:59Not what's the Apple, right?
0:56:00Apple strategy is I want the customer experience to be better as a Comixology user.
0:56:06Like it's terrible.
0:56:08And as a Kindle user, it's terrible that you have to go outside the store or go outside
0:56:13the app in order to buy things.
0:56:15It's dumb.
0:56:16It's awful.
0:56:17It is a user hostile behavior.
0:56:18And it's there because Apple has a rule that makes it happen.
0:56:21And there's no way for them to offer an app purchase because they will lose their margins
0:56:26are so thin already.
0:56:28They will, they will make so little money that it will not be worth it for them to do
0:56:32it.
0:56:33So they don't do it.
0:56:34That's why they don't do it.
0:56:35So I want it as a consumer too.
0:56:37I think it will benefit Apple because Apple will have to compete, which means Apple's
0:56:40work will be better.
0:56:42And that benefits me as a consumer.
0:56:44And there are alternatives which benefits me as a consumer.
0:56:46So from a personal perspective, I want Apple to do this, but also as somebody observing
0:56:50this and observing Apple's business, I think they have to have to find a way and maybe
0:56:57they have to wait a little bit and make it seem like they've, you know, so that they
0:57:00don't seem like they've relented immediately, but they got to get this story out of the
0:57:05news.
0:57:06And I think they're going to have to make policy decisions and changes in order to get
0:57:10it out.
0:57:11One last thing that I would hope could come from this is like, by and large, I agree with
0:57:18what you were saying about where they could do it is you kind of have to set some limits
0:57:21somewhere, right?
0:57:22Like you can't have 20,000 payment systems, right?
0:57:25Like they shouldn't do that.
0:57:27But my hope would be that you would get all the large companies doing it, however they
0:57:31want to do it.
0:57:32Then you have a company like Stripe come in and offer a service to third party developers.
0:57:38Like that's kind of what I would hope to see, right?
0:57:41That like a third party could come in and be like, all right, we have worked with Apple
0:57:47and worked out this deal and we will compete with Apple.
0:57:50This is the rate we'll give you.
0:57:52You know, like it's 7%, right?
0:57:55Or whatever, you know?
0:57:57That's what I hope we would see out of this.
0:57:59Like as a user, I don't want to have to sign up for a million different things, but I also
0:58:06don't, I no longer want to be forced to just using one.
0:58:10I would have no problem just using one if everyone accepted it, but they won't and they
0:58:14shouldn't have to.
0:58:16Because, you know, like in the same way that like I would also have no problem if Apple
0:58:20were like, all right, we're going to set some kind of tiering system on the cut now.
0:58:22You've got this many users, it costs this much.
0:58:25This many users, it costs this much.
0:58:27Like I would also in theory be happy with that as long as like people were paid correctly.
0:58:33I just, you know, like it was ultimately at this point, Apple was a very different company
0:58:39and I am very uncomfortable with them telling other big companies or companies of any size,
0:58:45this is how you should run your business.
0:58:47We're a big bully and that's that.
0:58:50And so if you would think from this conversation that I'm siding with Epic, really for me, what
0:58:56it is is I am pleased Epic's doing this because they are one of the only companies that can.
0:59:03And someone had to start this ball rolling at this kind of level.
0:59:07They can afford to, right?
0:59:09Because they can walk away from the app store if they have to, because they have so much
0:59:11of their revenue coming from other places.
0:59:14And I am, like I said, I'm not a fan of theirs, but you know, are there complaints?
0:59:20Do their complaints have some validity?
0:59:22Yes, they do.
0:59:23And does it have the possibility that it will force Apple to make some changes that will
0:59:26make the iPhone less consumer hostile?
0:59:30Yes, and less hospital for developers, yes.
0:59:34And so I would say that they're a useful foil, even though reading their lawsuit made my
0:59:40eyes roll back in my head.
0:59:42Some of the stuff they asked for is so ridiculous, but I think that it's piling on Apple at a
0:59:48time when Apple is showing a weakness and that people are waking up to the amount of
0:59:53power that Apple and Google have in terms of the control of app stores, meaning control
0:59:57of all smartphones in the world, or most of the world.
1:00:03Breaking news, breaking news, Myke, this just in.
1:00:05This might be the biggest breaking news in the show we've ever done related to a topic
1:00:10that we've just got done talking about.
1:00:12Yeah, this news broke after we recorded the show.
1:00:17But we used a time machine to come back to this point in the show to tell you Apple,
1:00:20according to Epic, has removed Fortnite from the app store, we knew that, and has informed
1:00:24Epic that on Friday, August 28th, Apple will terminate their developer accounts and cut
1:00:29Epic off from iOS and Mac development tools.
1:00:31In other words, this is the nuclear option.
1:00:35This is the third option that if Epic doesn't back off of what it's done in its app, it
1:00:41will be presumably, I mean, the if isn't even in this statement, but presumably they will
1:00:50be kicked off, their certificate will be invalidated, and I think that means that on all devices
1:00:56that have Fortnite, it will stop working at that point.
1:00:59I believe that's the case.
1:01:00See, this is the problem with not, as of right now, having a statement from Apple.
1:01:07What seems to have happened is Apple have contacted Epic, have told them, and then now
1:01:13Epic has added this to their court filing, and then also published it publicly.
1:01:21But the expectation is this will be like what happened when the certificates were removed.
1:01:28Remember that thing with Facebook?
1:01:29I don't think they ever took Facebook out of the app store, though, did they?
1:01:33That's a whole different thing.
1:01:35This might be a first time that something like this would have happened.
1:01:42Apple will probably, after we finish recording this, will probably come up with some sort
1:01:45of revision with their side of the story where they say that the issue is that this in-app
1:01:51purchase system that Epic put in is still active on people's devices, and if they deactivate
1:01:56it, they can stay in the store, but if they insist on keeping it active, they're an active
1:02:00violation and they're charging people outside of, you know, because that can't go on forever,
1:02:05right?
1:02:06They can't just like, well, if everybody who's already got it just keeps on paying, it keeps
1:02:09on working.
1:02:10So that was part of Epic's plan where, you know, I would assume that they thought they
1:02:15would probably be good, and they were just like, oh, we'll just keep making money, like
1:02:20no one else can download the app, but hey, we're making 20% more because, you know, we're
1:02:26not having to give them a cut.
1:02:29So this is interesting, and they actually, Epic throws in that the Unreal Engine that
1:02:34they offered to third-party developers, by cutting off their developer account, they
1:02:39cut off access to their development tools, including the ability to create the Unreal
1:02:43Engine.
1:02:44So, you know, and it's a filing, they're asking for a temporary restraining order and basically
1:02:47asking a judge to say, to order Apple to keep Fortnite in the App Store or at least in the
1:02:56developer certificate valid so that that doesn't get removed and that their access to developer
1:03:00tools doesn't get invalidated.
1:03:02I wonder if they figured this would happen, though.
1:03:08They had to think that it was a possibility, right?
1:03:12You'd be really silly not to consider that because like everybody knows that Apple has
1:03:17the ability to not only do this, but to like yank apps from a device.
1:03:24Like, they have a kill switch, like they can do it.
1:03:27For sure.
1:03:28Again, it's like it's not completely sure as of right now if that's what will happen.
1:03:34Like if people will lose the ability to play the game, we don't know that to be the case.
1:03:43I mean, given, we don't know for sure, given what we said earlier on in this segment, which
1:03:49is that this is a calculated move by Epic, I can't believe that this takes them by surprise
1:03:54at all.
1:03:55They must have known this was at the very least an option for Apple to do this.
1:04:01And so I would think that they would have gamed through everything they did, including
1:04:05asking for the restraining order about this.
1:04:08But it is a moment of Epic being like, you know, they're retaliating against us for filing
1:04:14a lawsuit against them.
1:04:15But you know, the counter argument is they're in violation of all the policies.
1:04:18This is no different.
1:04:19This is just them being in violation of policies.
1:04:22And Apple, does Apple not reserve the right to terminate the developer account of anyone
1:04:25who violates Apple's policies?
1:04:27Not just that they have violated them.
1:04:29They knowingly did it.
1:04:31Yes, indeed.
1:04:32Like the plan was to break the rules so Apple would kick them off the store, right?
1:04:39Because then if they got kicked off the store, the rest of the pieces got to be played.
1:04:44Now maybe, I mean, I can imagine, I can imagine a company like Epic being like, yeah, but
1:04:52they wouldn't do that though.
1:04:54Right?
1:04:55Like you play it out, but you'd be like, oh, they wouldn't be that silly to take us, like
1:04:59to completely stop people from being able to.
1:05:03This is very confusing.
1:05:04Like I do want to know more, like I want to know what the actual ramifications of this
1:05:09are, but it does seem like Epic are concerned about it, right?
1:05:14Yeah, I got to think this breaks the, this revokes the certificate and breaks the app,
1:05:19but it may or may not.
1:05:21Also something we didn't mention, which is that Tim Sweeney of Epic in the last day has
1:05:26also kind of gone off on a rant about Apple's App Store ads practice, which has never been
1:05:31my favorite.
1:05:32I always feel that that's Apple double dipping where they take money from developers and
1:05:35then they make the developers then spend money on AdWords for their apps.
1:05:40But he, you know, he went off on that too, the idea that if you search for Netflix in
1:05:44the App Store, TikTok is the first hit because they are paying for an ad there.
1:05:49So this is a, you know, this is a full frontal assault, but as we said earlier, I also think
1:05:54that it's take all the shots you can and then hope that it shakes out a result that is desired.
1:06:00So seeing people say that like, uh, with code signing and notarization on the Mac, this
1:06:07would shut down Epic's games on the Mac from working.
1:06:14So if that's the case, well, that's interesting.
1:06:17It would probably also remove them from people's iPhones and iPads.
1:06:21Yeah, I mean, you could install a version that was not, uh, notarized and, uh, go through
1:06:27the process of changing your security settings, but it would be a real inconvenience.
1:06:31And that's on the Mac though, right?
1:06:32Cause the Mac has that other option.
1:06:35Yeah.
1:06:36My assumption is here, I think we can assume here that this is going to cause significant
1:06:40issues.
1:06:41I do wonder if this has ramifications for those who use unreal.
1:06:50I don't know about that.
1:06:51It's I mean, what they say is that it's because they have, they need Apple's development tools
1:06:55to make it available, but, um, whether that's technically, you know, who knows, I don't
1:07:01know about how much of that is, is a kind of hysteria for making their legal argument
1:07:06for a restraining order versus an actual technical problem without a workaround.
1:07:10I guess the thing I say that I find funny about this is like during what we just recorded,
1:07:14we're kind of like, we'll now see where it goes from here.
1:07:18I don't think I expected it to go to this level so fast.
1:07:22I was kind of expecting there to be a little bit of a wait before another move, but Apple
1:07:28Apple's played a move now.
1:07:30Um, I guess if this does cause issues with unreal, this will look bad on Apple.
1:07:37I'm naturally assuming that would not be the case because I believe there are apps on Apple
1:07:41arcade that are made using unreal.
1:07:44So I can't imagine this is going to cause problems for third parties because otherwise
1:07:50that is a big shot in Apple's own foot because now you're the collateral damage that you
1:07:56are causing with this move is maybe more than they would actually want to do.
1:08:01Yeah.
1:08:02It feels more like a long, long term thing, right?
1:08:04Like, well, we can't make this available in the longterm if I don't have access to the
1:08:07tools, not that it's going to break those apps immediately.
1:08:11It would mean that Epic would not be able to continue creating revised versions of the
1:08:18unreal engine because Epic as a company no longer has access to developer tools.
1:08:23Right.
1:08:24So, uh, yeah.
1:08:25Wow.
1:08:26Okay.
1:08:27Well, Apple's not playing around.
1:08:30Uh, I didn't expect this to be their first move.
1:08:34Um, I was expecting maybe for them to talk a little bit more publicly about it than they
1:08:40have, you know, like maybe they would write a letter or something, you know, I wasn't
1:08:45expecting, um, what I'm seeing other people refer to as like thermonuclear war on Epic,
1:08:52but this is the big gun that Apple has to play in this fight.
1:08:57It's like, fine, you're done.
1:08:59And that I would say maybe a little too much, a little too soon, I think, but this is their
1:09:08card to play.
1:09:09Yeah.
1:09:10Well, we'll see what happens next.
1:09:12But uh, you know, who knows?
1:09:14Seven days from now, lots can change.
1:09:16So I've got another hour before I put the episode up.
1:09:19So who knows?
1:09:20Myke, this just in this.
1:09:23Nope.
1:09:24There's nothing more for now.
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1:11:06We did it Myke.
1:11:07We did it.
1:11:08We didn't disagree as much as you feared I think.
1:11:11I kind of pulled my thoughts back a little bit because you know, I think Federico will
1:11:18side with me a little bit more with how I completely feel about this.
1:11:22So maybe, I don't know if we're going to talk about it unconnected this week, but we'll
1:11:26see.
1:11:27All right, let's talk about Apple One.
1:11:30Apple's finally getting ready to launch a services bundle.
1:11:34We're pulling from a report here from a friend, literal actual real friend of the show, Mark
1:11:40Germin.
1:11:41Yes sir.
1:11:42Someone I can actually say is a friend of the show because we have Mark on the show
1:11:45not too long ago.
1:11:47So this is planning to launch alongside the next iPhone, so probably in October.
1:11:51There's not going to be any reason to do this other than they want to just show it off whenever
1:11:54they show off the iPhone, right?
1:11:56Get the most eyes on it.
1:11:58There's going to be a series of options available under the name Apple One, which is kind of
1:12:02funny if you think about it, right?
1:12:03It's called Apple One, but there's five tiers.
1:12:07It's like, that's not one.
1:12:09Anyway, the basic package will include Apple Music and TV Plus.
1:12:14There'll be a more expensive option that includes Arcade, another one that adds News Plus, and
1:12:19then a final tier to include iCloud storage.
1:12:23If this is correct, there's a lot of options, but the obvious idea here is it will cost
1:12:30you less if you bundle them up.
1:12:32There's an assumed savings of somewhere between two to five dollars a month, depending on
1:12:38whatever bundle you end up going for.
1:12:42I really hope that I don't have to get News Plus to get iCloud storage.
1:12:46Like, I just don't want that.
1:12:49I'm not sure it'll make sense.
1:12:51I'm not sure it'll make sense if it works like that.
1:12:55Gruber had his line, which is like, how does this make any sense?
1:13:00How is this less complicated than anything else?
1:13:06It strikes me as being kind of like very small discounts for various collections of features.
1:13:13It's not simple.
1:13:15The way it's described here, it's not simple.
1:13:17It's complicated and weird, and you're right.
1:13:18It's not one of anything.
1:13:24The only way I can imagine this making sense is if the actual implementation of it is kind
1:13:32of different, where it's like you start off with Apple Music and Apple TV Plus, and then
1:13:36it's a dollar more to add any of them.
1:13:40That would make...
1:13:42At least I could understand that one, rather than saying there are five tiers and you pick
1:13:48your tier, because that's too much.
1:13:51Really, I think the thing that we've assumed, and it should always be the case here, is
1:13:56they have one bundle, it costs one amount of money, and it gets you everything.
1:14:00That's how I've always imagined a bundle from Apple.
1:14:05That's what it is.
1:14:06It's the all-in on the ecosystem bundle, which saves you a little bit of money if you get
1:14:11everything, and then you don't care if you get News Plus.
1:14:14Because it's part of the bundle.
1:14:16And it saves you money because you already have the iCloud storage and all that.
1:14:19And also the iCloud storage at the final tier is amazing.
1:14:22Nobody can back up their iPhones.
1:14:24Why is that the final tier?
1:14:27Nobody has enough storage space to back up their iPhones with the free storage space.
1:14:31Why would you not throw that in?
1:14:32Put it in way earlier in this pricing structure.
1:14:36Or make it part of the initial thing to get people in the door.
1:14:40I'm reluctant to pick over this too much because it may not be the actual thing, but Mark's
1:14:44sources generally are pretty good, and this seems to be what they're talking about now.
1:14:47But yeah, I look at this and I think this is super disappointing and is going to be
1:14:51a mess.
1:14:52And as somebody who is paying for the Disney bundle, I just actually went through this
1:14:55where I bought Disney Plus and I had a Hulu subscription.
1:15:00And then because I had those two things, it actually was very, very, very cheap to add
1:15:04in ESPN Plus and get the big Disney bundle.
1:15:08Except the way I'm being charged doesn't make any sense.
1:15:10And I think I'm being overcharged.
1:15:11And I actually had to spend time in a chat window with a support person last week because
1:15:16Hulu is still charging me this monthly fee that looks way too big.
1:15:19And I paid for years of Disney in advance.
1:15:22And then I've got this little tiny monthly thing that I'm being charged for the bundle
1:15:26and it doesn't add up.
1:15:27And it struck me while I was doing this that bundles are really complicated because you've
1:15:32got existing customers with existing pricing, existing plans.
1:15:36You've got three different products.
1:15:37You've got, you know, Hulu has a couple of different tiers.
1:15:41So there's that too, which at least Apple doesn't have here.
1:15:43But like bundles, bundles get really complicated really fast and it becomes super unfriendly
1:15:49to a lot of people.
1:15:52And Mark's report about this bundle doesn't sound like it's anything but kind of complicated
1:15:59and not particularly exciting.
1:16:02I understand the issue and the difficulties in trying to create bundles.
1:16:09Like I run a business that has membership options and bundles can be really hard and
1:16:17adds many complexities.
1:16:20But at the same time, all this stuff is coming from Apple.
1:16:25And you know what?
1:16:26You're a big enough company and you really can rest on the making up in volume thing,
1:16:32was largest company, et cetera, et cetera.
1:16:36A later version, this is this point, this drives me bananas.
1:16:40This is exactly part of the problem I have with Apple leading back to the previous discussion
1:16:43right now.
1:16:44A later version of iOS 14 will include the ability for your device to suggest bundles
1:16:48to you based on the services you already subscribed to.
1:16:51Oh, I'm sure.
1:16:53I have no doubt.
1:16:54Guess what?
1:16:55More upselling of Apple products and services within the iOS user interface.
1:17:02Yeah, of course it will.
1:17:04And you know what?
1:17:05I bet it's not just in settings.
1:17:06I bet like I'll open Apple music and it'll go, Oh, Hey, you should get news.
1:17:10Yeah.
1:17:11Maybe some push notifications, some badges on icons.
1:17:14Look, I love Apple.
1:17:16I love Apple products have done forever, you know, but like Apple feel like my problematic
1:17:23fave at the moment because when I read that, like I'm like, yeah, I know like I have no
1:17:29doubt about that at all.
1:17:31No, I'm sure they're going to do it.
1:17:33I have no doubt about it.
1:17:35This is one of the core, I think, conflicts right now in discussing Apple is Apple is
1:17:41rushing headlong into boosting its services revenue as quickly as it can, mostly because
1:17:47it needs to show growth to wall street.
1:17:50And that is the place that and wearables is where the growth is happening right now.
1:17:55And they, Apple is willing to some degree to sacrifice user experience.
1:18:01And yes, the whole previous segment of this podcast is probably about the same thing,
1:18:06right?
1:18:07Which is sacrificing good user experience in order to maximize services revenue.
1:18:13The ARPU.
1:18:15It is the ARPU.
1:18:17Everybody's favorite ARPU.
1:18:18Average revenue per user.
1:18:19Yeah.
1:18:20And the monetization, you remember how I said that the word monetize means turning it, you
1:18:23take a magic wand and you tap it on a human being and they turn into a stack of coins.
1:18:28ARPU is I think the unit that is used to count the coins because it's average revenue per
1:18:33user.
1:18:34It's like, you know, I just, I just want to know how many bags of money are, are inside
1:18:39that person before I tap them with the magic monetization wand and turn them into a stack
1:18:43of money.
1:18:44You know, the, the, the story that really made me angry and, and you helpfully put it
1:18:49in the document here is there are a lot of people who accuse Apple of Sherlocking them,
1:18:56their products, right?
1:18:57Like stealing their ideas and putting in the operating system.
1:19:00And for a long time, I, I have, you know, there, the fact is that a lot of very basic
1:19:06ideas should be part of the operating system and ultimately Apple shouldn't keep them out
1:19:11of the operating system just because somebody did an app of it, like putting it and mainstreaming
1:19:17it and making it kind of a simplified version of it that happens all the time.
1:19:20It's okay.
1:19:21And so I often will, will take those sharp criticisms of Apple and try to blunt them
1:19:26a little bit and like, look, what do you expect them to do?
1:19:29However, this one is amazing, which is, um, a rumor that, uh, comes out in the German
1:19:36story and was rumored last year by Mac rumors as well, that Apple is planning a fitness
1:19:41subscription service.
1:19:43And this fits totally fits right.
1:19:45Myke, you would say, of course they are, of course, of course they are.
1:19:49There's a place for them to make some money.
1:19:50It's fitness related.
1:19:52They can make some money.
1:19:53They can create a service.
1:19:54I guess this is going to compete with like all these, all the bikes that you get on that
1:19:59have virtual trainers and stuff.
1:20:00It'll just be through Apple.
1:20:01Um, is there an Apple exercise bike company?
1:20:04There are lots of companies that, that do this stuff, right.
1:20:08Where it's like, we create videos for you to work out home, right?
1:20:13Like as well as like this story references companies like Peloton, but it's kind of different
1:20:18to that because Peloton has a bike, right?
1:20:20Like, I don't know, as you say, Apple, we're not going to make the, well, I don't know,
1:20:23Apple bike, but like it will be like, here's a bunch of like home workout things that you
1:20:29can do, uh, that kind of right.
1:20:32So like you watch this person in a gym and they're going to do a bunch of crunches.
1:20:35Although I will argue like for some of that, it's like, well, more fitness features make
1:20:39sense once you do more fitness features.
1:20:40But when they start talking about the content, first off, I get a little bit of a garage
1:20:44band music lessons vibe.
1:20:46Remember that?
1:20:47It didn't go anywhere.
1:20:49Uh, it was like, well, is this going to be another area where Apple like has an idea
1:20:53and they try it and then it doesn't work out.
1:20:54But Jason, you know why it didn't go anywhere?
1:20:56Because they gave that away for free.
1:20:57Well, no, they sold some of them.
1:20:59They gave the first lessons away for free, but they had like in app, it was like in app
1:21:02purchases in garage band of music lessons from Sting and John Mayer.
1:21:06It's very weird.
1:21:07Um, but no, what makes me angry is there was just that story about how a bunch of fitness
1:21:12companies that had gyms because of COVID-19, they were, um, they were offering online,
1:21:19uh, classes, online exercise classes.
1:21:23And there were many stories about this and Apple came in and said, Oh, that's a digital
1:21:28good.
1:21:29Give us 30%.
1:21:32And at the time I thought, well, that's kind of crappy.
1:21:34Like this is a pandemic.
1:21:35These people are just trying to have a solution that is not, uh, in person because they need
1:21:40something and Apple didn't, again, Apple didn't build their business.
1:21:44They're just trying to run their business this way.
1:21:48And Apple saying, well, now that it's a digital good, I want my 30%.
1:21:51But then you see this story and it's like, Oh, this is like, I books being built to spite
1:21:57Amazon and try to steal Amazon revenue on Apple platforms.
1:22:00This is because I look at this and I think, Oh, that explains why Apple is so diligent
1:22:05about having online fitness courses go through Apple system and generate 30% kickback to
1:22:11Apple is because Apple's building a product to do this.
1:22:15And what is a more Apple strategy?
1:22:17Sorry.
1:22:18Sorry, everybody out there for being so cynical about Apple these days, but like, what is
1:22:21a more Apple strategy?
1:22:23Is this hard not to be, cause this is, they might, this might not be their thing, but
1:22:28you know what?
1:22:29It ties them with everything else they're doing.
1:22:30So it probably is what they're doing.
1:22:32It does.
1:22:33It's very plausible that what Apple has decided is we're going to do a fitness subscription.
1:22:39And then anyone else who wants to do online fitness courses is going to have to, you know,
1:22:43it's going to have to follow our rules and we have to be sure that we're diligent about
1:22:47enforcing those in advance.
1:22:49But in the end, what it looks like from the outside is Apple wants to make the 30%, not
1:22:56just Apple taking its cut, but Apple making it impossible for other companies to compete
1:23:01with them because they have a product that's launching a service that's launching.
1:23:06I hear your blood boiling, Myke.
1:23:10I don't blame Tim Cook in the way that a lot of people do, right?
1:23:17Like this is just the situation that they found themselves in.
1:23:22I just kind of wish that they would stop.
1:23:25Right?
1:23:26Like I can see how we got here, but like, let's just calm down a bit, right?
1:23:35Let's pull back a bit and rethink this.
1:23:38Like Apple be in these businesses if these are the businesses you want to be in.
1:23:43Like totally fine, right?
1:23:46Like Sherlocking is a thing that's always existed, right?
1:23:50Which is the idea of Apple creating a business which is just like a business of somebody
1:23:56else, right?
1:23:57And it is a frustrating thing, but a thing that has existed for a long time.
1:24:02And it goes to the core, again, it goes to Apple's core, which is, aha, oh, Apple core,
1:24:07that wasn't intentional, which is if it's something that's adding onto an operating
1:24:11system and it's an obvious feature that benefits users, guess what?
1:24:14The maker of the operating system probably should put that in the operating system.
1:24:17And sometimes, not all the time, they do it better, right?
1:24:19So it's like a net win for the user, but it's unfortunate for the company.
1:24:23Or they do it for mass appeal and there's still nerdy appeal that that other product
1:24:27often will continue to exist because it does things that the stock Apple thing doesn't
1:24:33do.
1:24:34And so it gets overhyped a lot of the time.
1:24:36But you're right, honestly, Myke, we've argued for years now about how Apple's spending billions
1:24:44of dollars on Apple TV Plus because Apple feels like it's going to get left behind in
1:24:51this changeover from traditional Hollywood to essentially tech companies running the
1:24:57entertainment industry.
1:24:58And okay, there's an argument to be made there, we've talked about it.
1:25:04There is part of me that looks at all of this and says, "You know what?
1:25:08Why does Apple have to have a music service?
1:25:10Why does Apple have to have a bookstore?
1:25:12Why does Apple have to have a... is Apple the company that needs to make a virtual fitness
1:25:17thing?
1:25:18Or are they really just doing that?
1:25:19Do they really have something new to contribute here?
1:25:22Or is it really that they've got a platform advantage?
1:25:24And by putting this on their platforms and advertising it by sending push notifications
1:25:28to everybody who owns their devices, they're going to make some extra money on a thing
1:25:32that's probably not as good as the competition, but they have their platform advantages."
1:25:37And it's just so wearying to me because iBooks isn't best in class.
1:25:44I don't use Spotify, but everything that I've heard, it's not...
1:25:47I mean, I'm glad Apple Music exists honestly, because otherwise I think it would just be
1:25:51Spotify or there would need to be some other service.
1:25:53So I guess every platform owner has a music service and then there's Spotify.
1:25:57I guess that's how we're doing it.
1:25:58But does it need to exist?
1:26:00It doesn't.
1:26:01It doesn't need to exist.
1:26:02Does Apple TV Plus need to exist?
1:26:04It doesn't.
1:26:05It doesn't really need to exist.
1:26:06Apple has done so many things that are additive, that are not about Apple's core business at
1:26:11all, other than that Apple can use its core business to make this other business successful
1:26:17against competition that doesn't own their own platform.
1:26:22And the further afield they go, the more wearying it is for me, to see them like this fitness
1:26:29thing, just like, "Could it be good?
1:26:31I guess, but why?"
1:26:35And somebody else whose entire business is built on it is going to care more about it
1:26:39and probably do a better job, and they may fail because they don't have billions of dollars
1:26:45in the bank like Apple does.
1:26:48And if they're going to do this stuff, if they decide they want to do it, fine, right?
1:26:53If Apple decides that this is what they have to do, they really believe they can bring
1:26:58something new to the virtual fitness description space, all right, but don't also take 30%
1:27:04away from everybody else.
1:27:05Don't do both.
1:27:07I just don't believe... bottom line is that I look at this and I think, "It's not going
1:27:13to be great.
1:27:17It might be okay."
1:27:19Like how many Apple services are we going to see that are okay and are there because
1:27:28Apple wanted to try them?
1:27:32And we beat up News Plus a lot in Apple News because it's the weakest of them, but there's
1:27:38a lot of stuff that Apple does in services that's okay, it's fine, but does the world
1:27:45need a Peloton competitor that is paid for by Apple?
1:27:52Maybe they'll be devoted to quality and it'll be great and all of that, but it feels like
1:27:55the motivation there is not to bring a wonderful, groundbreaking new concept for fitness to
1:28:01customers, right?
1:28:02It feels like it's to skim more money out of the ecosystem and increase the ARPU.
1:28:08Must increase the ARPU.
1:28:11Well, in like a year, in two years, how much dead wood are they going to be carrying?
1:28:18All of these things, they keep starting to add into what will become Apple One, right?
1:28:23I assume this will be part of Apple One.
1:28:24Do you keep doing it forever?
1:28:26Do you kill the ones that don't work out?
1:28:30Or are they zombified and they just kind of continue on as half?
1:28:36That's the thing that gets me, right?
1:28:38Apple has so many things.
1:28:39I know it's got a lot of money and it can do a lot of things, but it has so many things
1:28:41at its core that it needs to focus on and that I don't feel like it does.
1:28:46Even its own apps, it doesn't always focus on.
1:28:49And yet it is happy to spend money building more of those things that are not at its core
1:28:53and that are not at the most important to them.
1:28:55I don't know.
1:28:59It's very frustrating because it's not as if, here's the thing, it's not as if we look
1:29:07at all of Apple services and say, you know what?
1:29:10Apple brought to this what they bring to every product they do, which is this intense focus
1:29:13on quality.
1:29:15This is what they say on stage, right?
1:29:16Intense focus on quality and on the user experience and all of those things.
1:29:20But a lot of these things just aren't like, they are Me Too products, so they're mediocre
1:29:25products.
1:29:26And meanwhile, the existing products have issues that could probably get some more.
1:29:29And I know that the money, you can't take a person who's working on Apple TV Plus and
1:29:33have them fix bugs.
1:29:34Like that's not the case.
1:29:35But there is this organizational spread that is happening.
1:29:40And if they had proven that every single one of their things is executed with Apple's famous,
1:29:46meticulous attention to detail and consumer delight, I would be like, great, I can't wait
1:29:51to see what they do in fitness.
1:29:53But I've seen Apple News Plus.
1:29:55So it's like, I think I would be able to more easily accept it if every single one of them
1:30:05was fantastic.
1:30:06I actually at this point, Jason, genuinely believe that TV Plus will be the best, but
1:30:13it's going to take time.
1:30:15But I think that they are teeing up enough people, enough content now that they are going
1:30:22to brute force this one.
1:30:24Like they will get to a point where it will be worth signing up for Apple One because
1:30:31you'll get music in TV Plus.
1:30:32I'll put a link in the show notes to this Ben Smith piece in the New York Times that
1:30:39is, I don't entirely agree with it.
1:30:43It's called The Week Old Hollywood Finally Actually Died.
1:30:45It's a great title.
1:30:46And it has to do with like the AT&T layoffs at WarnerMedia and all this stuff.
1:30:52I don't entirely agree with this premise.
1:30:53I think it's a little bit too simplistic where he says things like, well, HBO Max only has
1:31:002 million subscribers or whatever.
1:31:01HBO Max only has this many subscribers, so that's it.
1:31:03Disney One and all the rest of these are doomed to failure.
1:31:06It's like, no, I think that's simplistic and it's too soon.
1:31:11And this is a very complex market and there's a lot more to fight about.
1:31:16But I will say that if you buy Ben Smith's premise, what he's essentially saying is Old
1:31:20Hollywood is dead and now it's a whole bunch of companies with a lot of money trying to
1:31:24find out what new entertainment industry is.
1:31:27And if you read the article, the strong impression you get is, who do you think is going to be
1:31:33better at this?
1:31:34Netflix, Amazon, maybe even Apple or AT&T and Comcast.
1:31:43And I think that there's a good argument there.
1:31:46I think there is an argument to be made that if we are, if there is no, Disney is only
1:31:52the traditional, is the only traditional entertainment company that is actually fighting this fight
1:31:58is one of his points.
1:31:59And I think it's a good one, which is, it's not Disney versus Warner versus Universal
1:32:03NBC.
1:32:04It's Disney versus AT&T versus Comcast.
1:32:09And when you put it that way, it's like, well, it's really Disney's the only entertainment
1:32:11company out of that group.
1:32:13The others are phone companies and cable companies that have an offshoot.
1:32:17And if that's the game now, other than Disney, then who wouldn't, why would you not bet on
1:32:24Amazon and Netflix and even Apple in a scenario like that?
1:32:28Is Apple any worse positioned than AT&T in terms of building an entertainment product?
1:32:35I'm not sure it is in a long, long run.
1:32:38Yes, AT&T owns Warner Media, but like, is AT&T going to be better in terms of strategy?
1:32:46I mean, maybe with their, the guy, Jason Killar, who's the CEO now who used to be the Hulu
1:32:51guy in the early days, maybe, but you're going to put money down on AT&T?
1:32:58So that is, so when you say that you think Apple might get there, I think you're right.
1:33:02Apple might get there, even though it's sort of way out of bounds for them.
1:33:05Like that, that is where the entertainment industry is going is like anybody's game.
1:33:13So I want there to be a bundle for the same reason I always wanted there to be a bundle.
1:33:16So I'm just paying one amount of money in the family sharing plan and that's that job
1:33:20done.
1:33:21Yes.
1:33:22Right?
1:33:23Yes.
1:33:24Please.
1:33:25Every time, do you get the push notifications?
1:33:26I get them now because I'm paying for all my Apple services with Apple pay.
1:33:28And so I get push notifications whenever I have an Apple pay payment, which means that
1:33:31I get emails, so I get push notifications every time I make an Apple pay payment, which
1:33:36happens for all of my recurring Apple things.
1:33:38And it makes me laugh every time it's like, now I've been charged for this Apple service.
1:33:42Now I've charged for this.
1:33:43It just keeps happening.
1:33:44Stop it.
1:33:45I would really like for that to be, it's like, yes, I have all your things except for Apple
1:33:50news plus, cause it wasn't very good, but like I have all your things.
1:33:53If you can give me a bundle that puts it on one bill and saves me a little bit of money,
1:33:57but I'm committing to all your things, let's do that.
1:33:59Let's for my family, let's do it.
1:34:01I'll sign up.
1:34:02Give me, give me that.
1:34:03But I'm not sure that's what we're going to get.
1:34:07We'll see.
1:34:08Or at least it's not going to be wildly compelling to people that don't just want what we want,
1:34:13which is just one payment.
1:34:16But I think that there is definitely a class of Apple's customers that are the all in on
1:34:20Apple's ecosystem.
1:34:21And that that's what that plan is.
1:34:22It's the all in on Apple's ecosystem plan is Apple all in.
1:34:26They could use that title if they want all in plus premium.
1:34:30We should mention by the way, uh, some news that just happened while we were talking,
1:34:35which is that there is a, there is an Apple bundle.
1:34:38It's a TV bundle with Viacom CBS.
1:34:43This is so strange.
1:34:47If you're in the U S you can get CBS all access and Showtime for nine 99 a month if you are
1:34:53already an Apple TV plus subscriber.
1:34:55Yeah.
1:34:56So it's a subscription within a subscription to hat on a hat as Merlin would say.
1:35:00So yeah.
1:35:01So if you are an Apple TV plus subscriber, you can then like get CBS all access and Showtime
1:35:07as a bundle inside the TV app for $10 a month.
1:35:12So it's like a bundle inside a service, but uh, it is interesting that they've cut, they've
1:35:17cut this deal.
1:35:18Um, but it's not, so like if you don't get Apple TV plus, I guess you don't get this.
1:35:23I already have CBS all access and Showtime, so I'm not going to be able to avail myself
1:35:28of this particular bundle.
1:35:30Um, cause I have all the things already, but uh, it, I think what it says more than anything
1:35:37else is that Viacom's CBS is a, a free agent that's willing to make all sorts of different
1:35:43deals because they don't, they don't at least yet even have the aspirations to be what AT&T
1:35:51and Comcast are.
1:35:52They're, they're kind of smaller and they're out on their own and they are happy to make
1:35:57deals with Apple for stuff like this.
1:36:00Yeah.
1:36:01We, we've posited the potential idea of what if Apple bought them?
1:36:03Well, yeah, it doesn't look like that's going to be happening anytime soon.
1:36:07Who knows?
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1:37:41Okay, Mr. Jason Snow, it's time for some hashtag ask upgrade questions.
1:37:49Wolf wants to know, when the first Apple Silicon iMacs are released, what is the likelihood
1:37:54that they will be accompanied by a new mouse?
1:37:59I haven't even been thinking about Apple adding, changing its peripherals because I think they're
1:38:06pretty good.
1:38:08Now that Wolf mentions it, like could be everybody mocks that mouse because it charges on its
1:38:15underside, which is not so great.
1:38:18So I don't know.
1:38:19What do you think?
1:38:20I mean, I think the likelihood is greater than normal, but it's never a very big likelihood.
1:38:25So 10%, 20%?
1:38:26I know this is a terrible answer, but I think it just depends because it kind of really
1:38:37says like, how much are they going to change the design of the iMac?
1:38:42If they really change it, maybe the current peripherals will look out of place.
1:38:49What if it comes, it's black?
1:38:53That's the color that it comes in.
1:38:54Well, they have a black version of the Magic Mouse, but is it time to change it?
1:39:02I kind of wonder if really people are buying the trackpad now more than the mouse anyway.
1:39:09I would think so.
1:39:10And I don't really think they need to do anything to the trackpad.
1:39:13Yeah, I don't know.
1:39:15I don't like the Magic Mouse myself.
1:39:18I find it really uncomfortable to use.
1:39:20Yeah.
1:39:21When I got the review unit of the new iMac, I didn't realize there was a Magic Trackpad
1:39:28in the box.
1:39:29I only saw the mouse.
1:39:30There was both.
1:39:32And so I started using the mouse.
1:39:34I hate it.
1:39:35It's so bad.
1:39:36I rely on pinch and zoom and all these gestures that it can't do.
1:39:42And I don't like mice anyway, but I got to spend a little time with it and I still hate
1:39:48it.
1:39:49And then I found that there was the trackpad in the box.
1:39:51The Magic Mouse, I know that people like it because it has some gestures, right?
1:39:57And that is cool.
1:39:59But really, you just get a mouse from another company that has a button or two on it and
1:40:04you can replicate that stuff by and large.
1:40:07Like if you have to use a mouse.
1:40:08Because then you go to a trackpad for all of the additional gestures a trackpad gets
1:40:13you like pinching and zooming, which I do not believe that the Magic Mouse can do.
1:40:17I don't think it pinches the zoom.
1:40:20So yeah, it's not for me.
1:40:21This is actually a related question that comes from Nicholas.
1:40:25Nicholas wants to know if we have any recommendations for ergonomic peripherals for the Mac.
1:40:30I have none, so go for it.
1:40:32Oh, I've got some.
1:40:34So all right, so I have a few.
1:40:36Some work better than others for the Mac.
1:40:39You know, it's like one that I'll recommend is a keyboard that I'm using right now, which
1:40:42is called the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard.
1:40:45This is a keyboard that was recommended to me by Michael Ament a long time ago.
1:40:49And I know many other people that use it.
1:40:51It is a Microsoft keyboard, so it is a PC keyboard.
1:40:55You do have to kind of embrace that and maybe swap some stuff around.
1:40:59You're also going to always have a Windows logo in front of you.
1:41:03But look, it's a great keyboard.
1:41:05It's a part split keyboard.
1:41:07So it kind of basically the advantage to this keyboard is that your hands aren't like completely
1:41:16straight towards the computer.
1:41:18So you're not bending your wrists at a weird angle.
1:41:23An ergonomic keyboard, a split keyboard like this allows you to kind of place your hands
1:41:27on the keyboard in what I and many other people consider to be a more comfortable kind of
1:41:34orientation.
1:41:35I don't only use this keyboard or split keyboard, but I do quite frequently.
1:41:41My big thing about ergonomics with peripherals, the thing that works for me is to use lots
1:41:47of different ones and not just to focus on one thing for one time for a long period of
1:41:53time.
1:41:54So that's one keyboard.
1:41:55If you want to get what I think to be a nicer experience from a split keyboard, I will recommend
1:42:02to you two products.
1:42:04One is called the Dygma Raise, which is DYGMA.
1:42:07This is my favorite keyboard, but it is a mechanical keyboard.
1:42:12It's a clicky keyboard.
1:42:13So I can't use it while I'm recording here.
1:42:15It's the one that I have a cherry brown switches on it because it's too noisy.
1:42:19But this is the keyboard that I do the vast majority of my typing on.
1:42:23I think it's fantastic.
1:42:24It has RGB.
1:42:25If you want it, you can adjust it, you can change it.
1:42:28This is my favorite keyboard.
1:42:30I will also recommend or at least suggest the Ergodox keyboards because they are definitely
1:42:37the more popular of the split keyboard.
1:42:40I see this one around, but visually I prefer the Dygma Raise.
1:42:43And I also like the layout of some of the buttons a little better than the Ergodox keyboard.
1:42:50I'm being told by Sam in the chat room about silent mechanical switches.
1:42:54Yeah, I am aware of them and I'm thinking about it for a future keyboard purchase for
1:43:00maybe to get a different split keyboard that I like more.
1:43:02But anyway, I like my the keyboards that I write on the most to have some clickiness
1:43:06to them because that's fun.
1:43:08So they're the keyboards that I would recommend.
1:43:10When it comes to mice, I have three products from Logitech that I will also recommend.
1:43:15One is the very aptly named MX Ergo, which is a trackball mouse.
1:43:22So you don't move the mouse, you use your thumb to control the trackball.
1:43:27And I use this mouse every day with my iPad Pro.
1:43:30I have it connected via Bluetooth to that.
1:43:33And so when I put my iPad in the stand, I use this.
1:43:36I also will recommend the MX Master 3, which is Logitech's like premium mouse, like it's
1:43:42the one that everybody knows and uses.
1:43:45I find it to be a much more comfortable experience to use than say Apple's mouse.
1:43:50And then another one, which is another product that I'm using right now is the MX Vertical,
1:43:55which is a vertical mouse.
1:43:57So instead of your hand being like horizontal to the desk, it is vertical to the desk in
1:44:02its orientation.
1:44:04And again, like I use a combination of these things and a trackpad.
1:44:08And I also use a Wacom tablet to allow for my hands to my arms to feel comfortable when
1:44:14using computers for long periods of time.
1:44:16But these are my recommendations.
1:44:18Do with them as you will.
1:44:20I strongly recommend that people look into products like this right now.
1:44:26If you are a new at home worker, I am genuinely very concerned about the ergonomics of people
1:44:34that have found themselves all of a sudden working from home because it takes a while
1:44:40for these problems to develop.
1:44:43So please do whatever you can to try and be sensible with your ergonomic environment.
1:44:50Get a good chair, get a good desk where you can.
1:44:54And you know, but if that stuff's difficult for you, look into some of these products.
1:44:59Plus the Dygma Raise, the OgoDox, they're really cool keyboards.
1:45:02And you might have fun with it because then you can start getting custom key sets and
1:45:07like key caps and you can put them on and you can make it look really cool.
1:45:11And then you can have awesome RGB lighting, you know, go wild with it.
1:45:14Janos asks, do you track a room temperature or overall home temperature at all with any
1:45:21technology?
1:45:22Jason, to you, I know you're a weather person.
1:45:24Does that also include the indoors?
1:45:26Yeah, well the, so my weather console that's attached to my weather station wirelessly
1:45:31has a temperature sensor in it.
1:45:33So there's an indoor temperature sensor in that.
1:45:37And I use that.
1:45:38And then my, I have a Nest smart thermostat, so that's got the indoor temperature in it.
1:45:43And both of those, I can use Homebridge to get those temperatures into HomeKit.
1:45:48So I have them that way.
1:45:49My understanding is that there are a bunch of smart home sensors you can buy.
1:45:52And there are also some sensors that actually come with like smart home things that do other
1:45:57stuff, but also have a temperature sensor in them that can be read.
1:46:00So there's a bunch out there for that purpose.
1:46:04But for me, since I already have that, the weather station console and the Nest, I already
1:46:09have multiple ways to detect the temperature in my house.
1:46:13I use the Canary, the smart home security system thing.
1:46:18And that actually has a temperature sensor in it, which is useful.
1:46:21I found that useful when it's been hot because I could get a basic readout of the main room
1:46:25in my house, how hot it is.
1:46:27But I've been thinking about maybe getting something cheaper for other rooms and also
1:46:32for the studio.
1:46:33I might look into that at some point.
1:46:36Last question comes from Brent.
1:46:37Brent wants to know, "Zoom seems to be a particularly bad offender for making fans spin.
1:46:43How do you handle podcast recording when guests don't have an iMac Pro or a fanless machine?
1:46:49Do you just make sure people aren't multitasking?"
1:46:52Jason, I know that you deal with guests and people that aren't in fixed environments way
1:46:58more than me.
1:47:00Do you have any particular recommendations here?
1:47:02No.
1:47:06My recommendation is that I bought an iMac Pro not just because it's quiet, but because
1:47:14I needed the power to denoise all of the audio tracks of all the people in these podcasts
1:47:19who are on my podcast because there are going to be laptop fan noises and that's just going
1:47:25to happen.
1:47:26And I remove them and hope it sounds okay.
1:47:29And that's about it.
1:47:31I don't have a really great solution there.
1:47:35Have them use the app and not the web browser.
1:47:41Video is worse than just audio.
1:47:44Don't use video.
1:47:46When Brent said they're using Zoom, I'm assuming there might be a video component.
1:47:50Obviously, video is more processor-intensive than audio, so turn off video.
1:47:56And get your microphone away from the computer.
1:48:00Get the microphone, if they have an external microphone that they're using for a podcast
1:48:04or something, have them put the computer on the far side of the desk.
1:48:11Move it as far away as possible.
1:48:12And if you're doing video, there are other issues there.
1:48:15But that's often the killer is that the microphone is right next to the laptop that's blowing
1:48:19its fans and that's the worst.
1:48:23If you would like to send in a question for the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag
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1:48:52If you want to find out more about this episode, you can go to relay.fm/upgrade/311.
1:48:58I want to thank Jason as always.
1:49:00So if you go to sixcolors.com, you go to @jasonljfnell, you can find Jason's wonderful content.
1:49:07If you want more podcasts of Jason on, there are many more here at Relay FM and many more
1:49:11at theinc comparable.com as well.
1:49:14I am i Myke, I am Y-K-E. If you want to find me online, don't forget 1130 a.m. Eastern
1:49:20on August 18th at twitch.tv/relayfm.
1:49:23We're going to do something fun there for a little bit.
1:49:26Come hang out, come join.
1:49:27And thanks to Mint Mobile, Pingdom, and Bombas for their support of this show, and thank
1:49:32you for listening.
1:49:34We'll be back next time.
1:49:35Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.
1:49:36Goodbye everybody.
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