311: Summer of App Store Problems


00:00:00   [music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 311. Today's show is brought to you by Mint Mobile,

00:00:15   Pingdom, and Bombus. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Ahoy, Myke Hurley. How are you today? Good. Got a lot going on this week. Big episode again.

00:00:27   Oh boy. This summer is summer of news. It's a purely 2020 phenomenon, summer of news.

00:00:36   It turns out nobody has anything else better to do, so here we all are.

00:00:39   I have a #SnellTalk question that comes from The Harbor Master, which sounds very—

00:00:44   Ahoy. Yeah, I know. It sounds very official.

00:00:48   The Harbor Master desires to know, Jason, do you set your calendar to view day, week, month, or year?

00:00:56   I assume he means—he or she, the Harbor Master means my computer calendar.

00:01:02   Yeah.

00:01:03   Because the paper calendar on my wall is set to month.

00:01:05   Yeah.

00:01:07   Because it's—

00:01:09   What do you use the paper calendar for?

00:01:10   We have it posted in the living room and it's sort of like quick reference and you can write

00:01:15   things down on it and we put down like when we need to give the pets their pills and—

00:01:18   Right, like the family calendar.

00:01:19   And it's got—right, and it's got pictures of the family on it from the previous year,

00:01:24   which is going to be a problem. The 2021 calendar is going to need to be a greatest hits calendar,

00:01:27   because—although I suggested that the 2021 calendar be the four of us sitting on the couch

00:01:33   in the exact same pose—

00:01:34   Oh, that's good.

00:01:34   —but with different clothes for every single month. And it'd be like, yep.

00:01:38   Or like, you know, like there's like a collection of things building, right? Like, I don't know,

00:01:43   like seltzer cans or something like on a table over the year.

00:01:45   Exactly. Mm-hmm.

00:01:46   I think that's a great idea, personally.

00:01:48   We do have that. And on my computer, I always use a week view,

00:01:54   because I want to see what's coming up, not just today. I don't have enough—especially

00:01:59   now that I'm on my own here—I don't have enough stuff to need to like laser focus on what's

00:02:07   happening today. I want to know what's happening today, but I also want to know kind of like what

00:02:10   I've got for the week, what the traffic is out there for the week, and the stuff I have to

00:02:14   have to do and prepare for and be ready for. So, week view for me.

00:02:18   I kind of have a hybrid approach. So I use Fantastic Calendar on my devices, right? And I have

00:02:25   a—like on the side, on the left-hand side, is I think what they call kind of like list view

00:02:30   or agenda view.

00:02:31   Yeah, sure.

00:02:32   Which just lists all of my tasks over the coming days. And then if I'm using a version of the app,

00:02:38   whether it's on the Mac or on my iPad, with a larger canvas, I'll then have month view.

00:02:43   And I don't really look at that side, to be honest. Like, I focus pretty much all of my

00:02:49   attention on the list view, but the month is there if I need it. Like, for me, like the week view

00:02:55   doesn't help me too much because I use the list thing, because I get most of my week just looking

00:03:01   at the list view.

00:03:02   So what I like about the week view is that it shows the blocks of time. So it's—

00:03:06   Definitely good, yeah.

00:03:08   And again, if I'm trying to, as you know, schedule sort of my life through what the time is,

00:03:14   having an entry in a list, which—and the month view is like that too, it's just a list,

00:03:19   each day has a little list on it—doesn't serve the purpose of saying, "Here's a big block where

00:03:25   you're doing this."

00:03:26   No. If you are someone who thinks about their calendars, which,

00:03:30   assuming most people do, in that way of like, there is a block of time and things don't overlap,

00:03:35   like, I mean, for me, I kind of, I have a base idea of everything that goes on my calendar,

00:03:42   like, it's always expected to be an hour unless I know it to be otherwise.

00:03:46   But the—yeah, that makes—it makes a lot of sense to have week view for that reason, right?

00:03:52   Because as you say, you can see what's bumping into each other and if you actually have the

00:03:56   space to put something in, so.

00:03:58   Yeah.

00:03:58   Thank you to the HarbourMaster. If you would like to send in—

00:04:02   Ding ding!

00:04:02   Ding ding!

00:04:03   A question for a future episode of the show, you can send out a tweet with the hashtag

00:04:07   #snowtalk or use question mark #snowtalk in the RelayFM members Discord.

00:04:12   I want to give a bit of follow out. Tomorrow, which is August 18th, is RelayFM's sixth birthday.

00:04:17   It doesn't feel like it's that time because usually around this time, I am somewhere,

00:04:22   whether it's in Memphis or somewhere else, you know?

00:04:24   And you're nowhere now.

00:04:25   So it doesn't really have the typical birthday feel to it, but it is now, it's happening.

00:04:32   The RelayFM members bonus specials are starting to roll out.

00:04:36   We'll have more to say about that for this show in the coming weeks.

00:04:39   But myself and Steven will be hosting a live stream on Twitch tomorrow, which is August

00:04:46   18th at 11.30 AM Eastern Time.

00:04:49   We're going to be doing a RelayFM Q&A, so we've been taking questions from listeners.

00:04:56   If you want to submit one of those, you can send a tweet with the hashtag #relayqa.

00:05:00   But we've been taking questions from listeners over the last couple of weeks,

00:05:02   and we have some great questions there.

00:05:03   I'm also making a great announcement.

00:05:05   I'm very excited about something important that we have coming up soon.

00:05:09   So you can check that out at twitch.tv/relayfm.

00:05:13   And it's 11.30 AM Eastern Time tomorrow.

00:05:16   So you can go and check that out.

00:05:18   We appreciate it if you'll join us.

00:05:20   I have some upstream headlines for you, Jason.

00:05:23   Okay.

00:05:24   Martin Scorsese has signed a first look deal with Apple TV for both film and television

00:05:32   projects.

00:05:32   It's quite an individual to get a first look with.


00:05:38   Martin Scorsese has been doing a lot of interesting development stuff lately, I think, because

00:05:43   he wants to make movies the way he has always made them.

00:05:46   And these days, getting involved with companies that have lots of money for that instead of

00:05:52   the traditional film route is how he is able to keep doing it.

00:05:56   But there's a lot of prestige that goes in working with Martin Scorsese.

00:05:59   And I think it's interesting that Apple now -- first look deal means that Apple gets first

00:06:04   chance to say yes to it.

00:06:05   And if they say no, he can shop it somewhere else.

00:06:07   But Apple gets the first pass.

00:06:08   And, you know, you said like one of the reasons that Martin Scorsese's last two movies have

00:06:16   ended up one going to Netflix and one going to Apple.

00:06:19   Was it Paramount that he was working with previously?

00:06:23   Oh, I don't remember.

00:06:24   I don't remember.

00:06:24   Whatever studio it was, I think it was Paramount who previously had a deal with Scorsese.

00:06:29   Basically, it was just like we can't afford -- neither do we want to spend the money you

00:06:33   want to spend.

00:06:34   And you're right, it's Paramount.

00:06:35   Paramount is where he was.

00:06:36   Great.

00:06:36   But the tech companies, the streaming companies have the money and want the content.

00:06:43   We'll spend it.

00:06:43   So it makes a lot of sense for him to do this.

00:06:47   Like when you think about it, really, like it's probably just a matter of time until

00:06:51   he ended up signing this deal with someone.

00:06:53   Apple has the deepest pockets, would be my assumption.

00:06:56   I think I missed this.

00:06:58   I saw it in the Deadline report talking about Scorsese, but Leonardo DiCaprio's production

00:07:03   company Appian Way has also in August signed a first look deal with Apple.

00:07:09   But this is just for TV and documentaries.

00:07:13   Ah.

00:07:13   So, you know, I don't -- when I saw this, I was like, oh, wow, movie -- but no, not

00:07:20   movies.

00:07:22   So, you know, it's just more and more huge names being attached to Apple, which is, I'm

00:07:26   sure, very important to them.

00:07:28   Apple is also going to be adapting the children's novel Harriet the Spy into an animated TV

00:07:34   show.

00:07:34   I was a big fan of the Nickelodeon movie as a kid, so I was kind of excited to see this.

00:07:39   I don't know if literally anybody else remembers the Harriet the Spy Nickelodeon movie, but

00:07:45   I really did.

00:07:45   I actually -- for whatever age I was at the time, Jason, it was my birthday party that

00:07:51   year, was to go see that movie in the cinema.

00:07:53   Wow.

00:07:54   And I went with my family, and everybody hated it except for me, and to this day, I'm still

00:08:01   teased for this because I was the only person who could stand it, probably because I was

00:08:06   the exact right age range.

00:08:08   Well, that was 1996.

00:08:10   So, how old was I in '96?

00:08:13   I don't want to know.

00:08:15   I was --

00:08:16   Steven Hackett was 10.

00:08:17   I was eight.

00:08:18   I was eight years old.

00:08:19   Oh, boy.

00:08:20   I actually have a very vivid memory of seeing that movie.

00:08:23   I don't know why it's such a big movie for me, like why this is such a thing for me as

00:08:29   a kid, but it was.

00:08:30   And lastly, for Upstream today, we're going to talk about Apple News.

00:08:35   The Wall Street Journal apparently very happy with the Apple News deal at the moment.

00:08:41   News court CEO Robert Thompson was quoted by the New York Post as saying, "The Apple

00:08:46   News partnership allows us to focus on a tier of content and bring in a significantly new

00:08:52   audience that we would hope to graduate to a paid Wall Street Journal subscription over

00:08:57   time, and it is a genuinely different audience.

00:09:00   It's actually of late more women than men.

00:09:03   For the Wall Street Journal itself, it's more men than women."

00:09:06   I found that kind of interesting.

00:09:07   This is like a similar thing that I know that I've seen and other podcasters have seen with

00:09:12   Spotify, that the demographics of Spotify listenership are different to typical demographics.

00:09:19   So add to the overall pie.

00:09:22   You know, like a lot of people said that like Spotify isn't particularly stealing from other

00:09:27   people for their podcast stuff.

00:09:28   They are adding to the podcast listenership.

00:09:31   So it's a similar thing.

00:09:32   So like for whatever reason, the demographics picking up this content via Apple News are

00:09:38   different to the typical demographic that is signing up for the Wall Street Journal independently.

00:09:44   I just found this funny because it's the first time I've ever seen anybody positively talk

00:09:50   about Apple News.

00:09:51   Yeah, right.

00:09:52   And for those who don't remember, Wall Street Journal is doing like a subset of content

00:09:56   that's available.

00:09:57   So it's not...

00:10:00   The argument was going to be like, "Well, why don't I cancel my Wall Street Journal

00:10:04   subscription and subscribe to Apple News Plus?"

00:10:06   And the answer is you're not going to get the whole Wall Street Journal.

00:10:09   You're going to get some articles in search and some articles that float to the top, but

00:10:11   there are going to be things that are there.

00:10:14   So it's interesting.

00:10:16   It's like the idea of doing a subset in Apple News Plus.

00:10:20   I wonder, it's probably more work than it's worth for most sites to do that, but it is

00:10:26   interesting that this is an approach that's working for the Wall Street Journal, given

00:10:29   that we, like you said, haven't had a lot of companies say, "Yeah, Apple News Plus is

00:10:34   great."

00:10:35   So maybe this hybrid approach where they give some premium content into Apple News Plus,

00:10:41   but not the whole thing, is a more successful approach.

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00:12:53   Summer of news, this is a big story.

00:12:57   Really I think what we need to come up with some name here to try and tie these last couple

00:13:02   of months together, because really it's been the summer of App Store problems.

00:13:07   It feels like this is becoming a hotter and hotter issue all the time, and now Epic have

00:13:13   entered the fray in a, pun intended, quite epic way, honestly.

00:13:18   So I want to give an abridged history of what's happened over the last few days, in case you

00:13:23   are unaware, and also just to set the stage for the conversation.

00:13:27   So last Thursday, Epic activated a new feature in the Fortnite app that allowed for players

00:13:34   on iOS and Android to choose to pay in app via Epic's payment system for VBucks, which

00:13:40   is the game credits inside of Fortnite, and they would get a 20% discount for doing so.

00:13:45   So if you used Epic's system instead of Apple's or Google's, they would give you a discount.

00:13:51   This is obviously very clearly against the rules for the Play Store and the App Store,

00:13:56   and they kind of snuck it in, right?

00:13:58   So the app had been approved by multiple days, and then they updated it.

00:14:05   One of the things about games compared to other applications is you can update some

00:14:09   of the content in the background.

00:14:11   This is a thing that happens a lot with lots of games, especially large games.

00:14:15   Apple even supports the ability for developers to do this, especially on the Apple TV is

00:14:19   another great example of them doing this.

00:14:21   So you can effectively update stuff that's going on in the background, or maybe they

00:14:25   hid it.

00:14:26   I hope one day we do actually find out exactly what they did here, because it's interesting

00:14:30   to say the least.

00:14:31   There is also a possibility that Fortnite just doesn't get reviewed astringently because

00:14:36   it's such a big deal.

00:14:38   Who knows?

00:14:39   Anyway, Fortnite, well, Epic actually had a bunch of press releases about this.

00:14:44   They wrote news articles about it.

00:14:46   They weren't quiet about it.

00:14:48   So Apple booted them from the app store.

00:14:51   Epic immediately filed a lawsuit and started a marketing campaign which featured a spoof

00:14:56   of Apple's 1984 commercial.

00:14:58   They called it 1980 Fortnite, positioning Apple as Big Brother.

00:15:02   I watched the commercial.

00:15:04   I think they did a very good job of it.

00:15:07   It's funny and it fits their brand.

00:15:10   And when you hear the stuff that the Apple Big Brother is saying, I think it's kind of

00:15:15   hard to argue with, like, whether it's correct or not, the position that they pose is difficult

00:15:21   to argue with, I think.

00:15:22   I've seen some people say that they thought it was clever.

00:15:26   I don't think it was clever.

00:15:27   I think it was really obvious and hacky.

00:15:28   And if you had told me that Epic Games was going to be releasing a video later in the

00:15:33   day about what they had done to Apple, I would have been able to literally write the script

00:15:39   for the video that they released.

00:15:40   It was super dumb and super obvious.

00:15:44   Clever and obvious can't be the same thing.

00:15:48   It is the clever move to do.

00:15:49   Like, it's the move you do.

00:15:51   If you want to show Apple as being a tyrant, you just position it back on themselves.

00:15:58   Lazy.

00:15:59   Lazy.

00:16:00   We're going to disagree a lot on this over the next 45 minutes.

00:16:03   We are.

00:16:04   It's going to happen.

00:16:05   Epic, like, just to be clear, the way you recapped this is it comes across potentially as being

00:16:13   a sequence of events, but it's not.

00:16:16   It's one event.

00:16:17   Epic decided to break the rules of the Play Store and the App Store knowing they would

00:16:22   get kicked out or locked out or shut off or whatever you want to say about it.

00:16:27   And then they immediately had lawsuits ready to file and they immediately had a viral video

00:16:31   ready to go.

00:16:32   Unfortunately, they don't seem to have done the obvious Don't Be Evil video for Google

00:16:35   Play.

00:16:36   I don't know what happened there.

00:16:37   Did they not have that one ready in time?

00:16:38   So it's not as interesting.

00:16:41   This is their campaign.

00:16:43   And you know, the issue is an important one, but I rolled my eyes at the 1984 thing because

00:16:49   I just think that's super obvious and lazy and I don't appreciate the...

00:16:54   I don't think it's clever.

00:16:57   I think it's an easy shot and worth taking if you're epic.

00:17:00   I will say that.

00:17:01   But I don't think it's clever.

00:17:02   I think it's literally the most obvious thing they could have done.

00:17:07   Google also then booted them from the Play Store and Epic immediately followed with a

00:17:11   lawsuit for Google too.

00:17:13   I will...

00:17:14   I'm not...

00:17:15   Of course.

00:17:16   ...this is the state of events.

00:17:18   Of course they had all this ready.

00:17:19   They had to have it all ready.

00:17:20   They knew this was going to happen.

00:17:21   It was the point of doing it, right?

00:17:23   Like Epic was not surprised that this chain of events unfolded.

00:17:27   This was the plan.

00:17:28   This is exactly what they expected and it happened exactly as they planned.

00:17:32   I think this is a very well orchestrated and coordinated campaign to try and force the

00:17:36   hand of Google and especially Apple.

00:17:38   That's my feeling on this.

00:17:39   I think it's a very clever chess move.

00:17:41   I can roll my eyes at...

00:17:43   It feels to me like Epic wanted to have their cake and eat it too in the sense that they

00:17:48   wanted to play the aggrieved party and get some of the credibility that you've seen by

00:17:54   other kind of App Store outrages where companies do things kind of innocently and are swept

00:17:59   up in the disaster of Apple's opaque App Store process.

00:18:05   I got the feeling like they wanted to have some of that outrage accumulate to them and

00:18:10   they don't deserve any of it because this was...

00:18:14   This is a chess move and it's a very clever one and it puts Apple in a very difficult

00:18:18   position.

00:18:19   I think that's all smart.

00:18:20   But I roll my eyes at the kind of like, "Is Epic the aggrieved party here?"

00:18:25   No, this is a shot that they fired.

00:18:28   They're not like other...

00:18:30   Like a lot of other companies have had serious problems with Apple regarding the App Store

00:18:36   and they've stepped into them.

00:18:38   And it's an example where Apple is incredibly powerful and doesn't explain itself and its

00:18:41   rules are arbitrary and people's businesses are put into jeopardy because of it.

00:18:46   And I feel like Epic was sort of like playing that part, but that's not the point of what

00:18:51   they're doing at all.

00:18:52   I mean, I don't feel that way about them.

00:18:55   Like I feel about this the same way that I felt about xCloud last time.

00:19:00   Like the reason that if, you know, I kind of look at this and like, I think Epic should

00:19:07   do this is because I do not believe that Apple are in a position right now where they should

00:19:12   get to dictate to every company in the world the way that the rules are played.

00:19:16   Yep, not disputing that.

00:19:18   That's what I meant when I said that I thought that this was a smart move on their part strategically.

00:19:23   I just, I think that they also want to wrap, at least initially want to wrap themselves

00:19:29   in the, you know, essentially they played like they were a victim and then did the big

00:19:36   reveal that they're, "Ha ha, but we are not.

00:19:38   This was all part of our plan."

00:19:40   As somebody who has written and spoken too much about the people who actually get rolled

00:19:44   over by Apple with these policies, I didn't love that, but you know, it is what it is.

00:19:50   All right.

00:19:51   I mean, I slightly do disagree with you because I just think that like they had a lawsuit

00:19:56   right?

00:19:57   Like if they wanted to just be like, "Oh, look what they've done to us," they wouldn't

00:20:02   have like thrown their money behind this lawsuit.

00:20:05   Like it's, I think it's a different situation to the previous examples like, Hey, for example,

00:20:10   right?

00:20:11   Like I don't think like, you know, Hey, Basecamp were leaning on the fact that they were hoping

00:20:16   that people would get outraged on their behalf to try and make a change.

00:20:24   Epic are doing a thing where they are forcing it to happen via a marketing campaign and

00:20:29   a lawsuit.

00:20:30   I think it's, I see it as a different thing.

00:20:33   Nevertheless.

00:20:34   Well, publicity probably more than marketing because they're not really marketing their

00:20:37   product here.

00:20:38   They're just trying to get publicity for their policy change that they want to happen.

00:20:42   Sure.

00:20:43   So the situation is slightly different on an Android.

00:20:47   It's actually very different than Android.

00:20:49   And I'm not saying this is a case of like Epic should target Apple, but I think it's

00:20:53   worth bringing it up in case people are not aware of it.

00:20:57   So everybody knows that Android has sideloading, which means you can install apps from other

00:21:02   places and alternate payment methods exist on the Play Store, but not for games.

00:21:09   So Google make any game use the Play Store's in-app purchase method for things like credits

00:21:17   in a game.

00:21:19   And so when Fortnite launched, they actually created their own Fortnite launcher and tried

00:21:26   to basically make it work that way.

00:21:28   They did some partnerships with some companies like Samsung and tried to really kind of force

00:21:34   people to get Fortnite from there.

00:21:37   But it didn't work out the way that Epic wanted because Google tries very hard to persuade

00:21:42   users not to turn on sideloading features.

00:21:45   They put warnings and stuff.

00:21:46   So they ended up putting, well, they think they've any.

00:21:50   So for 18 months, they tried the sideloading thing and they, anybody who's used a Mac where

00:21:55   you try to launch an app and it says, oh, this app wasn't signed or tries to turn on, turn

00:22:01   off certain security settings, like to launch unauthorized apps, there are apps that aren't

00:22:05   from the app store or whatever.

00:22:07   And you get one of those scare warnings, scare dialogues.

00:22:09   It's like, watch out.

00:22:10   This is, you know, it could be, it could be dangerous.

00:22:13   And Catalina has actually ramped up the language there of like, you know, potentially we can't

00:22:17   check to make sure this isn't evil basically.

00:22:20   And so after 18 months, Fortnite, Epic said, you know, we have to be in the Google Play

00:22:25   Store because essentially we can't get enough customers on Android because we have to walk

00:22:29   them through this complicated process and tell them to avoid all these scare warnings.

00:22:34   And it isn't, it isn't effective.

00:22:37   And so even though they made that, they released the statement, which is just basically like,

00:22:40   even though we despise this, we're going to be in the Play Store because we can't make

00:22:43   sideloading work, which I think is actually super relevant because I think it undercuts

00:22:49   one of the counter arguments about like what Apple could do, which is what if Apple turned

00:22:53   on sideloading?

00:22:54   And I think that Epic's argument is it would be worse, a worse experience even than sideloading

00:23:01   on Android is because it's Apple.

00:23:04   And they tried it on Android and it didn't work.

00:23:09   So I think that's, I think it's an interesting perspective that the idea is that Google as

00:23:14   a platform owner put up a lot of barriers for good reasons, I would say, but a lot of

00:23:19   barriers to the sideloading thing.

00:23:21   And so even though we view what happens on Android and what happens on Apple's platforms

00:23:27   as different, it's not as different as you might think because you kind of really have

00:23:33   to have the Play Store and you kind of really have to be in the Play Store.

00:23:37   And as a result, Google doesn't have quite the level of control that Apple does, but

00:23:41   it has a lot of control.

00:23:43   And then for games, as you said, they want 30% and they're, you know, that's, and they

00:23:50   want you to use their payment system.

00:23:52   And there are some, they're very similar reasons, right?

00:23:54   The argument is one, that there's a lot of sleazy kind of game stuff out there that they

00:23:58   want to not have happen through, you know, alternate payment methods.

00:24:03   And two, it's a lot of money that they get.

00:24:06   So these are both reasons that they do it.

00:24:08   - I think it's money.

00:24:11   I think it's more money.

00:24:12   - I think it's both.

00:24:13   I think it's both because early on in the App Store, if you recall, there were lots

00:24:18   of issues about abuse of even in-app purchases for games.

00:24:23   And I think, so I do think that there's an aspect of, we're worried about shady digital

00:24:29   goods, you know, factories that are gonna steal, you know, a kid's money, basically.

00:24:37   And so I get that argument, but I think you're right, that that argument is then used to

00:24:43   be a moneymaker.

00:24:44   Because I don't really see how that has played out.

00:24:49   You know, all of this credit business to speed up time and all that kind of stuff, all of

00:24:55   that exists in apps in both the Play Store and the App Store.

00:25:00   It's still sleazy, it's still shady, but it's just in the stores, right?

00:25:05   So I agree that they positioned, both Google and Apple positioned it that way, but I don't

00:25:10   think they followed through on that.

00:25:14   Epic still offer Fortnite outside and they have their own game store on the PC and the

00:25:19   Mac, and it seems like they are still planning on bringing a version of the Epic Game Store

00:25:25   to Android, which would then be a third-party store, which again, you can do on Android.

00:25:31   Like it's possible to do that.

00:25:34   But as of yet, they haven't done that.

00:25:37   And Google and Epic have had an increasingly difficult relationship in the sense that it's

00:25:44   been, this actually came out in some of the antitrust stuff from a couple of weeks ago,

00:25:49   that Google has been forcing device makers to not do deals with Epic to preload this

00:25:55   stuff.

00:25:56   There was some news of them, OnePlus was going to work with Epic to put this, to preload

00:26:03   Fortnite, and I think a version of the Epic Game Store onto their devices and Google kind

00:26:07   of stepped in and was like, "You like the Play Store, right?" and put the end to that.

00:26:13   So I think clearly Epic is focusing more on Apple for two reasons.

00:26:18   I think reason one, which is minor, is there are no other workarounds.

00:26:23   It's Apple's way or the highway.

00:26:25   It's a more extreme example than Google, so it's easier to understand.

00:26:29   You don't have to have what I just spent two minutes describing of the barriers to side

00:26:34   loading.

00:26:35   You can just say it doesn't have it.

00:26:36   It's simple.

00:26:37   And also I think for a lot of people, a lot of customers, Google is actually removed in

00:26:41   their mind from the Android discussion, right?

00:26:44   Because there's so many device makers who run various versions of Android.

00:26:48   Some have the Play Store, some don't.

00:26:51   But I think the bigger reason is Epic are focusing their ire on Apple because it works

00:26:55   for publicity.

00:26:57   People are willing to believe it because a lot of it's true, and Apple is an easy company

00:27:03   to hate for a lot of people, right?

00:27:05   Like it's an easy thing to do.

00:27:07   BRIAN: They are an easier target and there's a clearer story to be told.

00:27:11   I'm actually surprised that they made the move on the Play Store and sued Google on

00:27:19   the same day because it does...

00:27:24   It broadens their case in a way that I think is really interesting and I think maybe will

00:27:29   be uncomfortable for Google, honestly.

00:27:32   But it does dilute their message a little bit.

00:27:35   MATT: It does.

00:27:36   I think they would have preferred for Google not to do it, but I think it was kind of like

00:27:43   they had to follow suit, right?

00:27:45   Because I think Epic want to do what they can to minimize any bad feelings towards them

00:27:51   and that it might have gotten a bit awry in the press, especially if Google did the same

00:27:57   thing and Epic didn't retaliate in any way.

00:28:00   I think they would have preferred to get a little distance on it because spreading it

00:28:04   out to Android as well as iOS kind of, as you say, like it dilutes their most important

00:28:10   message that they can get across, which is monolithic Apple, big brother Apple, doing

00:28:17   the thing you know they're going to do.

00:28:19   So my expectation when I saw this starting to unfold is that this is the end of a negotiation,

00:28:26   right there.

00:28:27   You've got to assume that Apple and Epic have been talking, right?

00:28:30   Like, you know, it's like any of these big companies, they will be having conversations,

00:28:35   especially because Epic's been very public about their feelings towards app stores and

00:28:40   taxes and all that kind of stuff.

00:28:42   And my expectation is Epic have come to realize that they are not going to get what they want,

00:28:47   so they chose to be very public with it because I think it's clear at this point that if Apple

00:28:54   don't want to do something, no company is going to make them do it.

00:28:57   They might meet you halfway.

00:28:58   We've seen them literally meet companies halfway, but what Epic won is clearly more than halfway,

00:29:06   right?

00:29:07   And so I think what they've done, I think this is pretty obvious, right, that they are

00:29:11   hoping that they can get either public or legal pressure to force Apple's hand to move

00:29:18   where they want them to move, right?

00:29:22   So the lawsuit is interesting to look through, but there's one kind of key paragraph which

00:29:29   I'll read for the sake of having it in here, which kind of clearly outlines what Epic are

00:29:33   wanting.

00:29:34   So it says, "But for Apple's legal restraints, Epic will provide a competing app store on

00:29:38   iOS devices which would allow iOS users to download apps in an innovative curated store

00:29:44   and would provide users the choice to use Epic's or another third party's in-app payment

00:29:48   processing tools."

00:29:49   So they are asking for alternate payment methods and alternate app stores.

00:29:54   I think the latter is a bit of a push and Epic knows that, but you always ask for more

00:29:59   than you want.

00:30:00   You ask for more than you want, right?

00:30:02   And so I think what...

00:30:03   So look, it's easy to read that paragraph and I see a lot of people do it and they go,

00:30:08   "Epic wants all my money, they want an alternate app store," and that's that, right?

00:30:11   Like, and I see it, right?

00:30:12   They would love it, but they know they're not going to get that, right?

00:30:16   Like realistically, they know they're not going to get that unless a government forces

00:30:21   that, and I don't think we're at that point yet.

00:30:25   But I think that we are, with this lawsuit especially, getting much closer to Apple not

00:30:31   being able to force people to use their payment system.

00:30:37   So, like, should Epic get what they want here?

00:30:42   What do you think?

00:30:43   - Well, I mean, ultimately what Epic wants is as much money as it can possibly get, because

00:30:50   this is all about money.

00:30:52   And again, there are so many issues that we talk about on a regular basis here about the

00:30:58   opacity of the approval process and other things that really can hurt, especially smaller

00:31:03   iOS developers.

00:31:06   Although the 30% cut does hurt them, I also know a lot of people who've made a quite sustainable

00:31:11   business even with Apple's 30% cut and they get the advantages of being in the app store

00:31:15   and all those things.

00:31:16   And even if it changed, they would potentially just stay with it as it is because it's so

00:31:22   convenient.

00:31:23   If you're a big money generator with a huge amount of cash flowing through the app store,

00:31:27   then this is the issue, which is, if your business is entirely based on in-app purchases,

00:31:33   then this is the issue and that's what it's about.

00:31:36   Should they get what they want?

00:31:39   For me, the big issue here is basically who owns app stores and who controls them and

00:31:48   what should the rules be?

00:31:50   And that's a big issue and there's a lot to go on, a lot to process there, right?

00:31:56   Because there's the fact that Apple made it and it's theirs and it runs on their hardware.

00:32:05   And you could argue that it is like a video game console.

00:32:08   It is a thing that's completely controlled.

00:32:10   And I am sympathetic to the idea that Apple made it, Apple owns it, Apple can do what

00:32:16   they want with it because it's theirs and they own it.

00:32:20   It's theirs.

00:32:21   They made the whole thing.

00:32:22   It's not even like Android where it's open source and then different manufacturers have

00:32:27   different phones that run it and all of that.

00:32:29   Like the iPhone and the app store, it's like of a piece.

00:32:32   It is what it is.

00:32:33   It is a single kind of thing.

00:32:36   It's not hardware, it's not software, it's not service, it's everything put together

00:32:39   and that's what Apple does.

00:32:42   On the other hand, when we look at the importance of smartphones, and this is where I think

00:32:48   bringing Google into it even though it dilutes their argument a little bit is smart, is it

00:32:56   calls the question of the importance of smartphones in world society and the fact that people

00:33:05   are, it's the most important device anybody owns, everybody has one.

00:33:11   And the access to everybody in the world who uses a smartphone is controlled by two American,

00:33:16   by the way, companies, corporations.

00:33:19   They have built a bridge and now they are manning the toll booth.

00:33:23   They have the toll booth and they're going to charge you for it.

00:33:26   And I know that this is the, is it a console or is it a general purpose computer argument?

00:33:31   But I think it really does matter like as a society because I think that there's a strategy

00:33:39   issue here, which is if you're Apple, we can get to this about like, what do you do if

00:33:42   you're Apple?

00:33:43   And I think the larger question is what do we think as a society about having Apple and

00:33:50   Google have this level of power where essentially everything that flows through a smartphone

00:33:58   is controlled and taxed by two for-profit corporations.

00:34:04   And I find that troubling.

00:34:08   And I know that it's a case where maybe Apple and Google are a victim of their own success.

00:34:14   You've built something that's yours and you own it, but it's now so important that it's

00:34:18   indispensable to the world.

00:34:20   And as a result, it's not quite yours anymore.

00:34:23   That's a really uncomfortable place to be, but that feels sort of like where we are right

00:34:29   now.

00:34:30   I also keep thinking, and I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit here, but I keep thinking

00:34:34   about how it didn't have to be this way.

00:34:36   And this goes back to something we said last week when we were talking about the Xbox streaming

00:34:40   services, which is it didn't have to be this way, but Apple has this part of its culture

00:34:45   and its personality that is very much the, "We almost died.

00:34:49   It's the Steve Jobs.

00:34:50   We almost died.

00:34:51   We're never going to do that again.

00:34:53   We're going to get our money.

00:34:54   We're going to get it so that we can stay alive."

00:34:56   And now that they're a giant and they control, they have so much money and they control one

00:35:01   of the two ways that anybody can have access to a smartphone, they are those policies that

00:35:07   were like, "I need the money.

00:35:08   We need to stay alive," as well as the, "We need to please Wall Street by growing services

00:35:13   revenue."

00:35:14   That doesn't come off as well.

00:35:17   It doesn't work as well because we're in a different context now, and it leads them to

00:35:21   make decisions that are probably not in their long-term best interests.

00:35:27   So that's the other thing I would say right now is, "Should Epic get what they want?"

00:35:30   That was your question.

00:35:31   It's like, well, not everything, but behind Epic's question is a fundamental thing about

00:35:41   how Apple has decided to police and monetize and tariff its platforms.

00:35:52   And I think that these are all symptoms of a larger problem.

00:35:58   So should Epic get what they want?

00:36:00   In part because Apple probably needs to do something to counteract the fact that there's

00:36:08   another one of these every week now.

00:36:11   What exactly they do, they've got some decisions to make.

00:36:15   But in the end, we didn't have to get here, but here we are now.

00:36:21   With every passing day, Apple is going to have to make an increasingly difficult decision

00:36:24   about changing its policies or letting it ride and risking the -- and I'm not being

00:36:28   overdramatic here -- the possibility that it will destroy Apple as we know it.

00:36:34   I don't think it's overdramatic by any stretch of the imagination.

00:36:39   Because you get a government involved, you get a regulator involved, you get a legislature

00:36:43   in the US to pass a law that they think does one very specific thing.

00:36:49   We've seen this time and again with technology legislation, right?

00:36:52   The DMCA or so many of these different laws.

00:36:55   And then two years pass and everybody's like, "Oh, did you know it would do this thing?"

00:37:00   And the answer is maybe somebody knew somewhere, but like, no, the legislators didn't know,

00:37:05   the president didn't know.

00:37:07   And whether it's that or whether it's a regulatory, you know, a mandated breakup of a large company

00:37:14   through antitrust, like there's so many different ways that once it gets in that world that

00:37:19   you could tear apart Apple's business.

00:37:22   Like Elizabeth Warren basically said when she was running for president that Apple shouldn't

00:37:26   be allowed to run the app store.

00:37:28   Like it should be removed from Apple.

00:37:30   Like when I say the end of Apple as we know it, it's like literally imagine parts of Apple's

00:37:35   business being removed from its purview.

00:37:38   Like that could happen if you get the regulators and the legislators involved, which is why

00:37:43   if you're Apple, I would think you have to look at that and say, "We have to do anything

00:37:48   we can to prevent reaching that point."

00:37:51   But then you look how they handled the books thing, which was a catastrophe for them because

00:37:55   the book business didn't matter, but like they pressed that to the limit and they lost

00:37:59   at every stage and they lost completely.

00:38:07   I think there's a lot of time being spent on like a conversation of picking sides when

00:38:13   it comes to this debate.

00:38:15   Like I feel like it's a thing that I'm seeing old people talking about.

00:38:18   And like, and I just think that it isn't about like Epic and Apple, which team are you on?

00:38:27   Like, right.

00:38:28   Because like I have said many times and my line stays the same.

00:38:33   I think we need to see some unwinding of the app store a little.

00:38:38   Something's got to give because the situation that we have found ourselves in right now

00:38:44   is not good, right, where every week we're having another conversation about the fact

00:38:53   that, "Oh, I don't know if I agree with what Apple's doing here."

00:38:57   And I think that we continue to go round and around with this point.

00:39:03   I kind of don't care which company is in the right or which is in the wrong.

00:39:07   The situation has to change because ultimately the situation as it is right now is bad for

00:39:12   customers.

00:39:13   Like, and an example of this, of like Epic has now created for themselves, which is people

00:39:19   that are using a smartphone to play Fortnite, they're not going to get the new content,

00:39:24   right?

00:39:25   Now, this is a situation where like, well, it's frustrating if you're, if you enjoy that

00:39:30   game, but this is because these two behemoths are like smashing against each other, like

00:39:35   action figures, right?

00:39:36   Being like just bashed against each other by a kid until one of them breaks.

00:39:41   But I think at the moment, and I said, I will say this again and again, I think Apple has

00:39:46   to break because I do not feel like that we are in the same situation as we were in when

00:39:52   Apple launched all this stuff for multiple reasons, right?

00:39:56   Like, yes, when Apple started the iPhone and started the app store in 2008, fine, you built

00:40:03   it, you got to set the rules, people came.

00:40:07   But where we are now is so different.

00:40:11   If Apple had decided to not move into services, maybe we could have a different discussion,

00:40:16   right?

00:40:17   And still say like, no, they are still the arbiter of what they believe is right and

00:40:21   wrong.

00:40:22   But at this point, they are making many services and products that directly compete with the

00:40:27   companies that they enforce rules on without in a lot of cases benefit, right?

00:40:34   So like, let's imagine that Apple are still taking 30% from Epic for every transaction

00:40:40   Fortnite.

00:40:41   How much does Epic have to owe Apple for making their business, right?

00:40:48   None, really.

00:40:50   Because Fortnite became popular outside of smartphones.

00:40:53   And then they created smartphone apps because it became so popular.

00:40:57   So people wanted to play everywhere, right?

00:41:00   So the original 30%, as it was kind of positioned, which is like, hey, it's like a department

00:41:06   store and we're going to put your software on the shelves and people are going to find

00:41:10   it and we're going to build your business.

00:41:12   Everyone knows we're not in that world anymore, but the rate never changed.

00:41:16   It's still 30%.

00:41:17   I think the question becomes for, and this is true for Basecamp and for Microsoft and

00:41:23   for Epic, which is what value accrues to the iPhone by your being there and what value

00:41:32   does your business accrue by being on the iPhone?

00:41:37   And that, I think that is the core of Apple's maybe disparity with most other non-Apple

00:41:47   observers about it.

00:41:48   They think that everyone's business is made better because they make the iPhone.

00:41:52   Yeah, they, Apple, I think Apple, and this goes back to that kind of Steve Jobs cultural

00:41:57   thing.

00:41:58   I think Apple doesn't consider the trade of all of these apps make our phone better and

00:42:08   therefore people buy our phone, which has huge margins and we make billions of dollars

00:42:12   on and that's a fair transaction.

00:42:15   Instead, Apple's like, oh, that's not enough money.

00:42:17   We don't make enough money by selling iPhone hardware, the most profitable and successful

00:42:21   product in the last 30 years, right?

00:42:25   That's not enough.

00:42:26   We also want all the money that's on it or 30% of all the money that's on it.

00:42:30   That's what we want.

00:42:31   And they get offended when somebody like Basecamp builds their business using a free iPhone

00:42:37   app and not giving Apple any money.

00:42:39   And it's like, okay, but you sell iPhones that make a fortune and Basecamp being on

00:42:44   the iPhone helps the iPhone.

00:42:45   There's a very strong argument to be made there, but Apple either can't see it or won't

00:42:50   see it or part of Apple doesn't want to see it.

00:42:53   And I think that that's the big challenge is even if you admit that there's this balance,

00:43:01   what is it?

00:43:02   And that should be a negotiation, right?

00:43:05   That should be a negotiation between Epic and Apple or Microsoft and Apple or Basecamp

00:43:10   and Apple, which is how do we make a relationship here where we are giving you your due for

00:43:16   providing a payment platform that's super easy and a software platform that gives us

00:43:22   access to all these users, but that allows us to run our business because we built our

00:43:28   business and these are our customers and not really your customers, or at least they're

00:43:32   both of our customers.

00:43:34   And I keep coming back to the fact that I think Apple looks at it and says, "No, our

00:43:41   policy is the policy."

00:43:43   And that's the thing, right?

00:43:44   Is that there's no alternative, we set the policy and that's it.

00:43:49   That's Apple's attitude.

00:43:50   I just really do hate this console computer argument discussion thing.

00:43:56   I actually think it's very important to make it because it's a discussion of what do you

00:43:59   want a smartphone to be?

00:44:01   Do you want the smartphone to be considered a completely locked down system that is completely

00:44:06   controlled because that's what consoles are?

00:44:08   Or do you want it to be a PC that's completely open?

00:44:10   And right now the debate is, and the app stores make it kind of like, "Eh, it's a little bit

00:44:15   of both."

00:44:17   And Epic's saying, "No, a smartphone should be like a PC."

00:44:21   And Apple's essentially saying, "No, it's a console."

00:44:24   And the reason I find it useful is not even from this specific argument, but I think from

00:44:28   that when we look back at what do we want, how important is the smartphone?

00:44:33   If we stop talking about this particular fight and say, "How do we want the world to work?

00:44:37   What do we want our governments to do?

00:44:39   Our government regulators that are supposed to be protecting us as consumers from these

00:44:43   big corporations and creating a market that is free to have competition?"

00:44:53   Do we want the smartphone to be treated like a console by all the rules?

00:44:57   Or do we want it to be treated like a PC by all the rules?

00:45:02   And that's the only way for me that I think it's valuable is not to say, "Well, is it

00:45:08   or isn't it," but to say, "Do we want this to change?

00:45:14   Do we want our governments to say, 'You know, the smartphone is so important that you can't

00:45:18   treat it like a game console.'"

00:45:20   Because the alternative—and I'm actually okay with this, I'm actually okay with this,

00:45:24   but we all have to be prepared—the alternative, one of them anyway, is to say, "You know

00:45:29   what?

00:45:30   Epic is right, and nobody can have a closed platform."

00:45:34   And there are a lot of ramifications to that, but that would be a consistent argument, right?

00:45:38   Which would be, Microsoft and Sony and Nintendo, you also have to open up your platforms if

00:45:44   Apple and Google have to do it.

00:45:46   And that could happen.

00:45:48   It probably won't, but it certainly could.

00:45:51   Yeah, you see, it's just—so like, the issue that I have with the complaint is like, with

00:45:58   this argument, is like, because Apple treats the iPhone like a console, therefore, it is

00:46:07   one, and all other games consoles should be treated just like the iPhone.

00:46:12   And I don't like that logic, because it doesn't make any sense to me.

00:46:18   The iPhone, the smartphone, too important, too prevalent in our lives, right?

00:46:25   When I start getting my Nintendo Switch out on the train, and communicating with my family,

00:46:32   doing my work on it, we can then maybe come back to this discussion.

00:46:36   But like, I'm not arguing that the Apple TV should be opened up, right?

00:46:43   Like, that's fine.

00:46:45   But devices, like iOS devices, iPadOS devices, these are general purpose computers.

00:46:52   They just are, right?

00:46:53   Like everything that people do, that the average person does on a Mac or a PC, they are doing

00:47:00   on these devices.

00:47:03   If Apple decided that they wanted to just allow you to install Mac apps from the Mac

00:47:09   App Store, and said that's how we want to run this now, we wouldn't accept that, because

00:47:15   we would say, these devices, this is where I get my work done, I should be able to choose.

00:47:21   Just because something has been set that way, doesn't mean that it is the way it should

00:47:28   be, right?

00:47:30   And I just have this real problem with this idea of like, oh, Apple treated this way,

00:47:35   so it has to be this way, and games consoles are exactly the same because they're also

00:47:41   closed platforms.

00:47:43   I agree with you, I'm just saying that I find it, so you don't like it because you don't

00:47:46   like the argument that the iPhone is a console.

00:47:49   That's not what I'm saying.

00:47:50   I'm saying there's consoles and there's general purpose computers, and what do we want the

00:47:55   smartphone to be?

00:47:56   I know, I know you're not saying it.

00:47:58   We are closer in our thinking here.

00:48:00   Yeah, but I get your frustration.

00:48:02   But you know, I want to talk, before we wrap this up, I want to talk about what Apple could

00:48:11   do, because I think that's the, for me, I hear a lot of people are like, oh, I'm here

00:48:17   for the drama, I'm getting my popcorn ready and all that, it's like, oh, I can't, I don't

00:48:22   feel that excited about it, because it's going to be a lot of endless, we're, this is, yeah,

00:48:27   we're going to have to live with this for years and it's going to be kind of boring

00:48:30   and also annoying, but it's super important.

00:48:32   But I am fascinated by the idea of what will Apple do to respond to this, because they

00:48:42   have some very specific paths.

00:48:46   And I'm really curious, and I'd like to know what you think they're going to do, because

00:48:49   it seems to me that Apple's options are to make a policy change, right?

00:48:59   They could do that.

00:49:00   That's the, that's like the last thing they could do.

00:49:02   They could let it ride and just fight this and see what happens.

00:49:08   But hanging over all of it is this possibility that they will become, this will become an

00:49:13   important cause and that an EU regulator or an American government is going to make their

00:49:22   business forcibly make their business change.

00:49:26   And that's the, that's the huge risk that at least I see in all of this.

00:49:30   So I think that's the question is does Apple just say, look, it is what it is, our rules

00:49:36   are our rules, we choose to make them and now you must follow them or get out, period.

00:49:41   And they fight it on that level.

00:49:44   Or do they find some way to make a change that they don't want to make because it'll

00:49:52   stave off a bigger change forced upon them from the outside?

00:49:57   I think like logically you would, can only come to the conclusion that they will make

00:50:06   some kind of policy change, right?

00:50:08   Because that just seems like the very clear logical thing to do, that you do something

00:50:13   to try and take the heat off.

00:50:16   That seems logical.

00:50:17   And if you're inside of Apple, in theory, nobody knows how hot that heat is more than

00:50:22   them, because they must be aware of it.

00:50:25   But the problem that I have with that argument or that kind of thought process is every public

00:50:31   statement Apple has made shows that they don't know this.

00:50:36   And that's what I find so weird about it because they are choosing to make these public statements.

00:50:42   They don't have to say what they're saying, where they keep talking about the fact that

00:50:47   like, oh, poor us, everyone's making money on our backs and we never asked for any of

00:50:52   it until they needed to charge for it.

00:50:55   They keep making this argument.

00:50:57   And I feel like you surely know, right?

00:51:01   You must know and you're just saying this.

00:51:04   I feel like I can't believe any other route here because that would be really wild for

00:51:12   like if you genuinely believe this and you're not aware of the risk that falls that could

00:51:18   fall upon you because if they don't make a policy change and by policy change, meaning

00:51:23   right, like they change how people can pay for stuff on the app store.

00:51:28   Someone's going to come in and make them do it.

00:51:30   Yeah.

00:51:31   And there are ways.

00:51:32   Also, here's the thing, because it could be seen as that we're arguing the same thing,

00:51:37   right?

00:51:38   Like option A is option B and it's not.

00:51:40   And the reason it's not is because being told by an outsider, whether it's a judge or a

00:51:44   regulator or a legislator, legislature to change your business in a certain way is way worse

00:51:55   than you get to write your own mitigation.

00:51:59   And because it's the difference between somebody saying, okay, Apple, you have to allow all

00:52:07   outside payment systems now and anybody can use whatever they want and you can still offer

00:52:10   an outside payment system, but anybody else can do whatever they want.

00:52:15   And Apple saying, good news, everybody.

00:52:18   We're changing some of our payment policies in the app store.

00:52:21   And then you get to set all these things.

00:52:22   So you can see like you can use a different system, but it has to follow this rule or

00:52:28   it'll get rejected.

00:52:29   You can only do it if you're a company that has been in the app store a certain amount

00:52:32   of time or has a certain amount of revenue passing through the in-app purchase system.

00:52:37   If you come up with a mitigation yourself, you can have it favor you if you're Apple.

00:52:42   And that's why you wanna do it now and stave off the rest of this.

00:52:48   You wanna do something that makes Epic drop their lawsuit 'cause Epic gets more money

00:52:53   and that's what Epic really cares about.

00:52:56   And yet still gives Apple control that they might lose if they are forced to do it by

00:53:02   a court or by a government of some sort.

00:53:04   So that to me is they need to get past though.

00:53:09   And what you said, Myke is exactly right, which is the books thing.

00:53:12   I keep coming back to the books thing, but the books thing, the Samsung thing, the Qualcomm

00:53:16   thing, honestly, we've seen time and again that there are certain things that Apple just

00:53:21   does not let go of.

00:53:23   And it doesn't always work out for them.

00:53:25   Right?

00:53:26   So, but this one I think is so potentially catastrophic that I think at some point they're

00:53:30   just gonna have to let it go.

00:53:31   And the funny thing is that by doing it, they can create an environment that one is better

00:53:35   for consumers and that two doesn't preclude them from making a lot of money on the app

00:53:41   store.

00:53:42   That's the thing that really gets me is the in-app purchase system that Apple provides

00:53:45   is super convenient.

00:53:47   And I would like them to continue to compete on making it as easy and frictionless as possible

00:53:54   and as seamless as possible, because I do believe Apple can make that product so convenient

00:53:58   that most people are happy to give Apple 30% or maybe 20% or whatever, because they'll

00:54:02   have to compete rather than using some manual system that is less friendly, especially if

00:54:09   Apple mandates that that's how you do it.

00:54:11   Right?

00:54:12   Apple mandates that you have to go to a webpage and enter in a credit card number and you

00:54:15   can't see, like they could make all sorts of restrictions to make it less.

00:54:19   And they probably would if they could.

00:54:20   Right?

00:54:21   They could make it so that they have an advantage because that's the story of Apple basically

00:54:27   in a nutshell.

00:54:28   So I feel like that is the smart thing to do and that they could still make a lot of

00:54:33   money and it would be better for consumers.

00:54:37   But there are times in my darker times, I remind myself that it's kind of amazing that

00:54:42   Apple didn't try to take 30% of all purchases in the app store, including like my Amazon

00:54:46   orders for like physical goods.

00:54:49   At least they drew the line at physical goods.

00:54:52   But it would be very Apple to say, no, we want 30% of everything.

00:54:55   At least they chose not to do that.

00:54:56   But they're going to need to take, I think they're going to need to take a step back.

00:54:59   I think that's the thing that they're going to have to sacrifice is they're going to have

00:55:02   to sacrifice mandating that all purchases happen through Apple's payment system.

00:55:09   And there are things they could do to mitigate it.

00:55:10   Right?

00:55:11   Like I think we talked about this last week, but like sign in with Apple and Apple pay.

00:55:14   You can make it so that it's super easy to pay and you could even mandate if you're Apple,

00:55:20   you could say, okay, you can have an outside account that pays for this, but you have to

00:55:25   support sign in with Apple.

00:55:26   It's like, okay, we'll do that.

00:55:29   Right?

00:55:30   Like, and they could grease the skids in a lot of other ways.

00:55:32   So I don't know.

00:55:34   Not only do I think that that's what Apple should do strategically because the risk of

00:55:38   having the government intervene is catastrophic and you just can't, you can't do that.

00:55:44   And so you do have to kind of give Epic at least some of what they want, which is money

00:55:47   because that's really what they want.

00:55:49   And, and, and that's what I think they should do.

00:55:53   And honestly, that's what I would like to see as a consumer.

00:55:58   What would I like to see?

00:55:59   Not what's the Apple, right?

00:56:00   Apple strategy is I want the customer experience to be better as a Comixology user.

00:56:06   Like it's terrible.

00:56:08   And as a Kindle user, it's terrible that you have to go outside the store or go outside

00:56:13   the app in order to buy things.

00:56:15   It's dumb.

00:56:16   It's awful.

00:56:17   It is a user hostile behavior.

00:56:18   And it's there because Apple has a rule that makes it happen.

00:56:21   And there's no way for them to offer an app purchase because they will lose their margins

00:56:26   are so thin already.

00:56:28   They will, they will make so little money that it will not be worth it for them to do

00:56:32   it.

00:56:33   So they don't do it.

00:56:34   That's why they don't do it.

00:56:35   So I want it as a consumer too.

00:56:37   I think it will benefit Apple because Apple will have to compete, which means Apple's

00:56:40   work will be better.

00:56:42   And that benefits me as a consumer.

00:56:44   And there are alternatives which benefits me as a consumer.

00:56:46   So from a personal perspective, I want Apple to do this, but also as somebody observing

00:56:50   this and observing Apple's business, I think they have to have to find a way and maybe

00:56:57   they have to wait a little bit and make it seem like they've, you know, so that they

00:57:00   don't seem like they've relented immediately, but they got to get this story out of the

00:57:05   news.

00:57:06   And I think they're going to have to make policy decisions and changes in order to get

00:57:10   it out.

00:57:11   One last thing that I would hope could come from this is like, by and large, I agree with

00:57:18   what you were saying about where they could do it is you kind of have to set some limits

00:57:21   somewhere, right?

00:57:22   Like you can't have 20,000 payment systems, right?

00:57:25   Like they shouldn't do that.

00:57:27   But my hope would be that you would get all the large companies doing it, however they

00:57:31   want to do it.

00:57:32   Then you have a company like Stripe come in and offer a service to third party developers.

00:57:38   Like that's kind of what I would hope to see, right?

00:57:41   That like a third party could come in and be like, all right, we have worked with Apple

00:57:47   and worked out this deal and we will compete with Apple.

00:57:50   This is the rate we'll give you.

00:57:52   You know, like it's 7%, right?

00:57:55   Or whatever, you know?

00:57:57   That's what I hope we would see out of this.

00:57:59   Like as a user, I don't want to have to sign up for a million different things, but I also

00:58:06   don't, I no longer want to be forced to just using one.

00:58:10   I would have no problem just using one if everyone accepted it, but they won't and they

00:58:14   shouldn't have to.

00:58:16   Because, you know, like in the same way that like I would also have no problem if Apple

00:58:20   were like, all right, we're going to set some kind of tiering system on the cut now.

00:58:22   You've got this many users, it costs this much.

00:58:25   This many users, it costs this much.

00:58:27   Like I would also in theory be happy with that as long as like people were paid correctly.

00:58:33   I just, you know, like it was ultimately at this point, Apple was a very different company

00:58:39   and I am very uncomfortable with them telling other big companies or companies of any size,

00:58:45   this is how you should run your business.

00:58:47   We're a big bully and that's that.

00:58:50   And so if you would think from this conversation that I'm siding with Epic, really for me, what

00:58:56   it is is I am pleased Epic's doing this because they are one of the only companies that can.

00:59:03   And someone had to start this ball rolling at this kind of level.

00:59:07   They can afford to, right?

00:59:09   Because they can walk away from the app store if they have to, because they have so much

00:59:11   of their revenue coming from other places.

00:59:14   And I am, like I said, I'm not a fan of theirs, but you know, are there complaints?

00:59:20   Do their complaints have some validity?

00:59:22   Yes, they do.

00:59:23   And does it have the possibility that it will force Apple to make some changes that will

00:59:26   make the iPhone less consumer hostile?

00:59:30   Yes, and less hospital for developers, yes.

00:59:34   And so I would say that they're a useful foil, even though reading their lawsuit made my

00:59:40   eyes roll back in my head.

00:59:42   Some of the stuff they asked for is so ridiculous, but I think that it's piling on Apple at a

00:59:48   time when Apple is showing a weakness and that people are waking up to the amount of

00:59:53   power that Apple and Google have in terms of the control of app stores, meaning control

00:59:57   of all smartphones in the world, or most of the world.

01:00:03   Breaking news, breaking news, Myke, this just in.

01:00:05   This might be the biggest breaking news in the show we've ever done related to a topic

01:00:10   that we've just got done talking about.

01:00:12   Yeah, this news broke after we recorded the show.

01:00:17   But we used a time machine to come back to this point in the show to tell you Apple,

01:00:20   according to Epic, has removed Fortnite from the app store, we knew that, and has informed

01:00:24   Epic that on Friday, August 28th, Apple will terminate their developer accounts and cut

01:00:29   Epic off from iOS and Mac development tools.

01:00:31   In other words, this is the nuclear option.

01:00:35   This is the third option that if Epic doesn't back off of what it's done in its app, it

01:00:41   will be presumably, I mean, the if isn't even in this statement, but presumably they will

01:00:50   be kicked off, their certificate will be invalidated, and I think that means that on all devices

01:00:56   that have Fortnite, it will stop working at that point.

01:00:59   I believe that's the case.

01:01:00   See, this is the problem with not, as of right now, having a statement from Apple.

01:01:07   What seems to have happened is Apple have contacted Epic, have told them, and then now

01:01:13   Epic has added this to their court filing, and then also published it publicly.

01:01:21   But the expectation is this will be like what happened when the certificates were removed.

01:01:28   Remember that thing with Facebook?

01:01:29   I don't think they ever took Facebook out of the app store, though, did they?

01:01:33   That's a whole different thing.

01:01:35   This might be a first time that something like this would have happened.

01:01:42   Apple will probably, after we finish recording this, will probably come up with some sort

01:01:45   of revision with their side of the story where they say that the issue is that this in-app

01:01:51   purchase system that Epic put in is still active on people's devices, and if they deactivate

01:01:56   it, they can stay in the store, but if they insist on keeping it active, they're an active

01:02:00   violation and they're charging people outside of, you know, because that can't go on forever,

01:02:05   right?

01:02:06   They can't just like, well, if everybody who's already got it just keeps on paying, it keeps

01:02:09   on working.

01:02:10   So that was part of Epic's plan where, you know, I would assume that they thought they

01:02:15   would probably be good, and they were just like, oh, we'll just keep making money, like

01:02:20   no one else can download the app, but hey, we're making 20% more because, you know, we're

01:02:26   not having to give them a cut.

01:02:29   So this is interesting, and they actually, Epic throws in that the Unreal Engine that

01:02:34   they offered to third-party developers, by cutting off their developer account, they

01:02:39   cut off access to their development tools, including the ability to create the Unreal

01:02:43   Engine.

01:02:44   So, you know, and it's a filing, they're asking for a temporary restraining order and basically

01:02:47   asking a judge to say, to order Apple to keep Fortnite in the App Store or at least in the

01:02:56   developer certificate valid so that that doesn't get removed and that their access to developer

01:03:00   tools doesn't get invalidated.

01:03:02   I wonder if they figured this would happen, though.

01:03:08   They had to think that it was a possibility, right?

01:03:12   You'd be really silly not to consider that because like everybody knows that Apple has

01:03:17   the ability to not only do this, but to like yank apps from a device.

01:03:24   Like, they have a kill switch, like they can do it.

01:03:27   For sure.

01:03:28   Again, it's like it's not completely sure as of right now if that's what will happen.

01:03:34   Like if people will lose the ability to play the game, we don't know that to be the case.

01:03:43   I mean, given, we don't know for sure, given what we said earlier on in this segment, which

01:03:49   is that this is a calculated move by Epic, I can't believe that this takes them by surprise

01:03:54   at all.

01:03:55   They must have known this was at the very least an option for Apple to do this.

01:04:01   And so I would think that they would have gamed through everything they did, including

01:04:05   asking for the restraining order about this.

01:04:08   But it is a moment of Epic being like, you know, they're retaliating against us for filing

01:04:14   a lawsuit against them.

01:04:15   But you know, the counter argument is they're in violation of all the policies.

01:04:18   This is no different.

01:04:19   This is just them being in violation of policies.

01:04:22   And Apple, does Apple not reserve the right to terminate the developer account of anyone

01:04:25   who violates Apple's policies?

01:04:27   Not just that they have violated them.

01:04:29   They knowingly did it.

01:04:31   Yes, indeed.

01:04:32   Like the plan was to break the rules so Apple would kick them off the store, right?

01:04:39   Because then if they got kicked off the store, the rest of the pieces got to be played.

01:04:44   Now maybe, I mean, I can imagine, I can imagine a company like Epic being like, yeah, but

01:04:52   they wouldn't do that though.

01:04:54   Right?

01:04:55   Like you play it out, but you'd be like, oh, they wouldn't be that silly to take us, like

01:04:59   to completely stop people from being able to.

01:05:03   This is very confusing.

01:05:04   Like I do want to know more, like I want to know what the actual ramifications of this

01:05:09   are, but it does seem like Epic are concerned about it, right?

01:05:14   Yeah, I got to think this breaks the, this revokes the certificate and breaks the app,

01:05:19   but it may or may not.

01:05:21   Also something we didn't mention, which is that Tim Sweeney of Epic in the last day has

01:05:26   also kind of gone off on a rant about Apple's App Store ads practice, which has never been

01:05:31   my favorite.

01:05:32   I always feel that that's Apple double dipping where they take money from developers and

01:05:35   then they make the developers then spend money on AdWords for their apps.

01:05:40   But he, you know, he went off on that too, the idea that if you search for Netflix in

01:05:44   the App Store, TikTok is the first hit because they are paying for an ad there.

01:05:49   So this is a, you know, this is a full frontal assault, but as we said earlier, I also think

01:05:54   that it's take all the shots you can and then hope that it shakes out a result that is desired.

01:06:00   So seeing people say that like, uh, with code signing and notarization on the Mac, this

01:06:07   would shut down Epic's games on the Mac from working.

01:06:14   So if that's the case, well, that's interesting.

01:06:17   It would probably also remove them from people's iPhones and iPads.

01:06:21   Yeah, I mean, you could install a version that was not, uh, notarized and, uh, go through

01:06:27   the process of changing your security settings, but it would be a real inconvenience.

01:06:31   And that's on the Mac though, right?

01:06:32   Cause the Mac has that other option.

01:06:35   Yeah.

01:06:36   My assumption is here, I think we can assume here that this is going to cause significant

01:06:40   issues.

01:06:41   I do wonder if this has ramifications for those who use unreal.

01:06:50   I don't know about that.

01:06:51   It's I mean, what they say is that it's because they have, they need Apple's development tools

01:06:55   to make it available, but, um, whether that's technically, you know, who knows, I don't

01:07:01   know about how much of that is, is a kind of hysteria for making their legal argument

01:07:06   for a restraining order versus an actual technical problem without a workaround.

01:07:10   I guess the thing I say that I find funny about this is like during what we just recorded,

01:07:14   we're kind of like, we'll now see where it goes from here.

01:07:18   I don't think I expected it to go to this level so fast.

01:07:22   I was kind of expecting there to be a little bit of a wait before another move, but Apple

01:07:28   Apple's played a move now.

01:07:30   Um, I guess if this does cause issues with unreal, this will look bad on Apple.

01:07:37   I'm naturally assuming that would not be the case because I believe there are apps on Apple

01:07:41   arcade that are made using unreal.

01:07:44   So I can't imagine this is going to cause problems for third parties because otherwise

01:07:50   that is a big shot in Apple's own foot because now you're the collateral damage that you

01:07:56   are causing with this move is maybe more than they would actually want to do.

01:08:01   Yeah.

01:08:02   It feels more like a long, long term thing, right?

01:08:04   Like, well, we can't make this available in the longterm if I don't have access to the

01:08:07   tools, not that it's going to break those apps immediately.

01:08:11   It would mean that Epic would not be able to continue creating revised versions of the

01:08:18   unreal engine because Epic as a company no longer has access to developer tools.

01:08:23   Right.

01:08:24   So, uh, yeah.

01:08:25   Wow.

01:08:26   Okay.

01:08:27   Well, Apple's not playing around.

01:08:30   Uh, I didn't expect this to be their first move.

01:08:34   Um, I was expecting maybe for them to talk a little bit more publicly about it than they

01:08:40   have, you know, like maybe they would write a letter or something, you know, I wasn't

01:08:45   expecting, um, what I'm seeing other people refer to as like thermonuclear war on Epic,

01:08:52   but this is the big gun that Apple has to play in this fight.

01:08:57   It's like, fine, you're done.

01:08:59   And that I would say maybe a little too much, a little too soon, I think, but this is their

01:09:08   card to play.

01:09:09   Yeah.

01:09:10   Well, we'll see what happens next.

01:09:12   But uh, you know, who knows?

01:09:14   Seven days from now, lots can change.

01:09:16   So I've got another hour before I put the episode up.

01:09:19   So who knows?

01:09:20   Myke, this just in this.

01:09:23   Nope.

01:09:24   There's nothing more for now.

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01:11:06   We did it Myke.

01:11:07   We did it.

01:11:08   We didn't disagree as much as you feared I think.

01:11:11   I kind of pulled my thoughts back a little bit because you know, I think Federico will

01:11:18   side with me a little bit more with how I completely feel about this.

01:11:22   So maybe, I don't know if we're going to talk about it unconnected this week, but we'll

01:11:26   see.

01:11:27   All right, let's talk about Apple One.

01:11:30   Apple's finally getting ready to launch a services bundle.

01:11:34   We're pulling from a report here from a friend, literal actual real friend of the show, Mark

01:11:40   Germin.

01:11:41   Yes sir.

01:11:42   Someone I can actually say is a friend of the show because we have Mark on the show

01:11:45   not too long ago.

01:11:47   So this is planning to launch alongside the next iPhone, so probably in October.

01:11:51   There's not going to be any reason to do this other than they want to just show it off whenever

01:11:54   they show off the iPhone, right?

01:11:56   Get the most eyes on it.

01:11:58   There's going to be a series of options available under the name Apple One, which is kind of

01:12:02   funny if you think about it, right?

01:12:03   It's called Apple One, but there's five tiers.

01:12:07   It's like, that's not one.

01:12:09   Anyway, the basic package will include Apple Music and TV Plus.

01:12:14   There'll be a more expensive option that includes Arcade, another one that adds News Plus, and

01:12:19   then a final tier to include iCloud storage.

01:12:23   If this is correct, there's a lot of options, but the obvious idea here is it will cost

01:12:30   you less if you bundle them up.

01:12:32   There's an assumed savings of somewhere between two to five dollars a month, depending on

01:12:38   whatever bundle you end up going for.

01:12:42   I really hope that I don't have to get News Plus to get iCloud storage.

01:12:46   Like, I just don't want that.

01:12:49   I'm not sure it'll make sense.

01:12:51   I'm not sure it'll make sense if it works like that.

01:12:55   Gruber had his line, which is like, how does this make any sense?

01:13:00   How is this less complicated than anything else?

01:13:06   It strikes me as being kind of like very small discounts for various collections of features.

01:13:13   It's not simple.

01:13:15   The way it's described here, it's not simple.

01:13:17   It's complicated and weird, and you're right.

01:13:18   It's not one of anything.

01:13:24   The only way I can imagine this making sense is if the actual implementation of it is kind

01:13:32   of different, where it's like you start off with Apple Music and Apple TV Plus, and then

01:13:36   it's a dollar more to add any of them.

01:13:40   That would make...

01:13:42   At least I could understand that one, rather than saying there are five tiers and you pick

01:13:48   your tier, because that's too much.

01:13:51   Really, I think the thing that we've assumed, and it should always be the case here, is

01:13:56   they have one bundle, it costs one amount of money, and it gets you everything.

01:14:00   That's how I've always imagined a bundle from Apple.

01:14:05   That's what it is.

01:14:06   It's the all-in on the ecosystem bundle, which saves you a little bit of money if you get

01:14:11   everything, and then you don't care if you get News Plus.

01:14:14   Because it's part of the bundle.

01:14:16   And it saves you money because you already have the iCloud storage and all that.

01:14:19   And also the iCloud storage at the final tier is amazing.

01:14:22   Nobody can back up their iPhones.

01:14:24   Why is that the final tier?

01:14:27   Nobody has enough storage space to back up their iPhones with the free storage space.

01:14:31   Why would you not throw that in?

01:14:32   Put it in way earlier in this pricing structure.

01:14:36   Or make it part of the initial thing to get people in the door.

01:14:40   I'm reluctant to pick over this too much because it may not be the actual thing, but Mark's

01:14:44   sources generally are pretty good, and this seems to be what they're talking about now.

01:14:47   But yeah, I look at this and I think this is super disappointing and is going to be

01:14:51   a mess.

01:14:52   And as somebody who is paying for the Disney bundle, I just actually went through this

01:14:55   where I bought Disney Plus and I had a Hulu subscription.

01:15:00   And then because I had those two things, it actually was very, very, very cheap to add

01:15:04   in ESPN Plus and get the big Disney bundle.

01:15:08   Except the way I'm being charged doesn't make any sense.

01:15:10   And I think I'm being overcharged.

01:15:11   And I actually had to spend time in a chat window with a support person last week because

01:15:16   Hulu is still charging me this monthly fee that looks way too big.

01:15:19   And I paid for years of Disney in advance.

01:15:22   And then I've got this little tiny monthly thing that I'm being charged for the bundle

01:15:26   and it doesn't add up.

01:15:27   And it struck me while I was doing this that bundles are really complicated because you've

01:15:32   got existing customers with existing pricing, existing plans.

01:15:36   You've got three different products.

01:15:37   You've got, you know, Hulu has a couple of different tiers.

01:15:41   So there's that too, which at least Apple doesn't have here.

01:15:43   But like bundles, bundles get really complicated really fast and it becomes super unfriendly

01:15:49   to a lot of people.

01:15:52   And Mark's report about this bundle doesn't sound like it's anything but kind of complicated

01:15:59   and not particularly exciting.

01:16:02   I understand the issue and the difficulties in trying to create bundles.

01:16:09   Like I run a business that has membership options and bundles can be really hard and

01:16:17   adds many complexities.

01:16:20   But at the same time, all this stuff is coming from Apple.

01:16:25   And you know what?

01:16:26   You're a big enough company and you really can rest on the making up in volume thing,

01:16:32   was largest company, et cetera, et cetera.

01:16:36   A later version, this is this point, this drives me bananas.

01:16:40   This is exactly part of the problem I have with Apple leading back to the previous discussion

01:16:43   right now.

01:16:44   A later version of iOS 14 will include the ability for your device to suggest bundles

01:16:48   to you based on the services you already subscribed to.

01:16:51   Oh, I'm sure.

01:16:53   I have no doubt.

01:16:54   Guess what?

01:16:55   More upselling of Apple products and services within the iOS user interface.

01:17:02   Yeah, of course it will.

01:17:04   And you know what?

01:17:05   I bet it's not just in settings.

01:17:06   I bet like I'll open Apple music and it'll go, Oh, Hey, you should get news.

01:17:10   Yeah.

01:17:11   Maybe some push notifications, some badges on icons.

01:17:14   Look, I love Apple.

01:17:16   I love Apple products have done forever, you know, but like Apple feel like my problematic

01:17:23   fave at the moment because when I read that, like I'm like, yeah, I know like I have no

01:17:29   doubt about that at all.

01:17:31   No, I'm sure they're going to do it.

01:17:33   I have no doubt about it.

01:17:35   This is one of the core, I think, conflicts right now in discussing Apple is Apple is

01:17:41   rushing headlong into boosting its services revenue as quickly as it can, mostly because

01:17:47   it needs to show growth to wall street.

01:17:50   And that is the place that and wearables is where the growth is happening right now.

01:17:55   And they, Apple is willing to some degree to sacrifice user experience.

01:18:01   And yes, the whole previous segment of this podcast is probably about the same thing,

01:18:06   right?

01:18:07   Which is sacrificing good user experience in order to maximize services revenue.

01:18:13   The ARPU.

01:18:15   It is the ARPU.

01:18:17   Everybody's favorite ARPU.

01:18:18   Average revenue per user.

01:18:19   Yeah.

01:18:20   And the monetization, you remember how I said that the word monetize means turning it, you

01:18:23   take a magic wand and you tap it on a human being and they turn into a stack of coins.

01:18:28   ARPU is I think the unit that is used to count the coins because it's average revenue per

01:18:33   user.

01:18:34   It's like, you know, I just, I just want to know how many bags of money are, are inside

01:18:39   that person before I tap them with the magic monetization wand and turn them into a stack

01:18:43   of money.

01:18:44   You know, the, the, the story that really made me angry and, and you helpfully put it

01:18:49   in the document here is there are a lot of people who accuse Apple of Sherlocking them,

01:18:56   their products, right?

01:18:57   Like stealing their ideas and putting in the operating system.

01:19:00   And for a long time, I, I have, you know, there, the fact is that a lot of very basic

01:19:06   ideas should be part of the operating system and ultimately Apple shouldn't keep them out

01:19:11   of the operating system just because somebody did an app of it, like putting it and mainstreaming

01:19:17   it and making it kind of a simplified version of it that happens all the time.

01:19:20   It's okay.

01:19:21   And so I often will, will take those sharp criticisms of Apple and try to blunt them

01:19:26   a little bit and like, look, what do you expect them to do?

01:19:29   However, this one is amazing, which is, um, a rumor that, uh, comes out in the German

01:19:36   story and was rumored last year by Mac rumors as well, that Apple is planning a fitness

01:19:41   subscription service.

01:19:43   And this fits totally fits right.

01:19:45   Myke, you would say, of course they are, of course, of course they are.

01:19:49   There's a place for them to make some money.

01:19:50   It's fitness related.

01:19:52   They can make some money.

01:19:53   They can create a service.

01:19:54   I guess this is going to compete with like all these, all the bikes that you get on that

01:19:59   have virtual trainers and stuff.

01:20:00   It'll just be through Apple.

01:20:01   Um, is there an Apple exercise bike company?

01:20:04   There are lots of companies that, that do this stuff, right.

01:20:08   Where it's like, we create videos for you to work out home, right?

01:20:13   Like as well as like this story references companies like Peloton, but it's kind of different

01:20:18   to that because Peloton has a bike, right?

01:20:20   Like, I don't know, as you say, Apple, we're not going to make the, well, I don't know,

01:20:23   Apple bike, but like it will be like, here's a bunch of like home workout things that you

01:20:29   can do, uh, that kind of right.

01:20:32   So like you watch this person in a gym and they're going to do a bunch of crunches.

01:20:35   Although I will argue like for some of that, it's like, well, more fitness features make

01:20:39   sense once you do more fitness features.

01:20:40   But when they start talking about the content, first off, I get a little bit of a garage

01:20:44   band music lessons vibe.

01:20:46   Remember that?

01:20:47   It didn't go anywhere.

01:20:49   Uh, it was like, well, is this going to be another area where Apple like has an idea

01:20:53   and they try it and then it doesn't work out.

01:20:54   But Jason, you know why it didn't go anywhere?

01:20:56   Because they gave that away for free.

01:20:57   Well, no, they sold some of them.

01:20:59   They gave the first lessons away for free, but they had like in app, it was like in app

01:21:02   purchases in garage band of music lessons from Sting and John Mayer.

01:21:06   It's very weird.

01:21:07   Um, but no, what makes me angry is there was just that story about how a bunch of fitness

01:21:12   companies that had gyms because of COVID-19, they were, um, they were offering online,

01:21:19   uh, classes, online exercise classes.

01:21:23   And there were many stories about this and Apple came in and said, Oh, that's a digital

01:21:28   good.

01:21:29   Give us 30%.

01:21:32   And at the time I thought, well, that's kind of crappy.

01:21:34   Like this is a pandemic.

01:21:35   These people are just trying to have a solution that is not, uh, in person because they need

01:21:40   something and Apple didn't, again, Apple didn't build their business.

01:21:44   They're just trying to run their business this way.

01:21:48   And Apple saying, well, now that it's a digital good, I want my 30%.

01:21:51   But then you see this story and it's like, Oh, this is like, I books being built to spite

01:21:57   Amazon and try to steal Amazon revenue on Apple platforms.

01:22:00   This is because I look at this and I think, Oh, that explains why Apple is so diligent

01:22:05   about having online fitness courses go through Apple system and generate 30% kickback to

01:22:11   Apple is because Apple's building a product to do this.

01:22:15   And what is a more Apple strategy?

01:22:17   Sorry.

01:22:18   Sorry, everybody out there for being so cynical about Apple these days, but like, what is

01:22:21   a more Apple strategy?

01:22:23   Is this hard not to be, cause this is, they might, this might not be their thing, but

01:22:28   you know what?

01:22:29   It ties them with everything else they're doing.

01:22:30   So it probably is what they're doing.

01:22:32   It does.

01:22:33   It's very plausible that what Apple has decided is we're going to do a fitness subscription.

01:22:39   And then anyone else who wants to do online fitness courses is going to have to, you know,

01:22:43   it's going to have to follow our rules and we have to be sure that we're diligent about

01:22:47   enforcing those in advance.

01:22:49   But in the end, what it looks like from the outside is Apple wants to make the 30%, not

01:22:56   just Apple taking its cut, but Apple making it impossible for other companies to compete

01:23:01   with them because they have a product that's launching a service that's launching.

01:23:06   I hear your blood boiling, Myke.

01:23:10   I don't blame Tim Cook in the way that a lot of people do, right?

01:23:17   Like this is just the situation that they found themselves in.

01:23:22   I just kind of wish that they would stop.

01:23:25   Right?

01:23:26   Like I can see how we got here, but like, let's just calm down a bit, right?

01:23:35   Let's pull back a bit and rethink this.

01:23:38   Like Apple be in these businesses if these are the businesses you want to be in.

01:23:43   Like totally fine, right?

01:23:46   Like Sherlocking is a thing that's always existed, right?

01:23:50   Which is the idea of Apple creating a business which is just like a business of somebody

01:23:56   else, right?

01:23:57   And it is a frustrating thing, but a thing that has existed for a long time.

01:24:02   And it goes to the core, again, it goes to Apple's core, which is, aha, oh, Apple core,

01:24:07   that wasn't intentional, which is if it's something that's adding onto an operating

01:24:11   system and it's an obvious feature that benefits users, guess what?

01:24:14   The maker of the operating system probably should put that in the operating system.

01:24:17   And sometimes, not all the time, they do it better, right?

01:24:19   So it's like a net win for the user, but it's unfortunate for the company.

01:24:23   Or they do it for mass appeal and there's still nerdy appeal that that other product

01:24:27   often will continue to exist because it does things that the stock Apple thing doesn't

01:24:33   do.

01:24:34   And so it gets overhyped a lot of the time.

01:24:36   But you're right, honestly, Myke, we've argued for years now about how Apple's spending billions

01:24:44   of dollars on Apple TV Plus because Apple feels like it's going to get left behind in

01:24:51   this changeover from traditional Hollywood to essentially tech companies running the

01:24:57   entertainment industry.

01:24:58   And okay, there's an argument to be made there, we've talked about it.

01:25:04   There is part of me that looks at all of this and says, "You know what?

01:25:08   Why does Apple have to have a music service?

01:25:10   Why does Apple have to have a bookstore?

01:25:12   Why does Apple have to have a... is Apple the company that needs to make a virtual fitness

01:25:17   thing?

01:25:18   Or are they really just doing that?

01:25:19   Do they really have something new to contribute here?

01:25:22   Or is it really that they've got a platform advantage?

01:25:24   And by putting this on their platforms and advertising it by sending push notifications

01:25:28   to everybody who owns their devices, they're going to make some extra money on a thing

01:25:32   that's probably not as good as the competition, but they have their platform advantages."

01:25:37   And it's just so wearying to me because iBooks isn't best in class.

01:25:44   I don't use Spotify, but everything that I've heard, it's not...

01:25:47   I mean, I'm glad Apple Music exists honestly, because otherwise I think it would just be

01:25:51   Spotify or there would need to be some other service.

01:25:53   So I guess every platform owner has a music service and then there's Spotify.

01:25:57   I guess that's how we're doing it.

01:25:58   But does it need to exist?

01:26:00   It doesn't.

01:26:01   It doesn't need to exist.

01:26:02   Does Apple TV Plus need to exist?

01:26:04   It doesn't.

01:26:05   It doesn't really need to exist.

01:26:06   Apple has done so many things that are additive, that are not about Apple's core business at

01:26:11   all, other than that Apple can use its core business to make this other business successful

01:26:17   against competition that doesn't own their own platform.

01:26:22   And the further afield they go, the more wearying it is for me, to see them like this fitness

01:26:29   thing, just like, "Could it be good?

01:26:31   I guess, but why?"

01:26:35   And somebody else whose entire business is built on it is going to care more about it

01:26:39   and probably do a better job, and they may fail because they don't have billions of dollars

01:26:45   in the bank like Apple does.

01:26:48   And if they're going to do this stuff, if they decide they want to do it, fine, right?

01:26:53   If Apple decides that this is what they have to do, they really believe they can bring

01:26:58   something new to the virtual fitness description space, all right, but don't also take 30%

01:27:04   away from everybody else.

01:27:05   Don't do both.

01:27:07   I just don't believe... bottom line is that I look at this and I think, "It's not going

01:27:13   to be great.

01:27:17   It might be okay."

01:27:19   Like how many Apple services are we going to see that are okay and are there because

01:27:28   Apple wanted to try them?

01:27:32   And we beat up News Plus a lot in Apple News because it's the weakest of them, but there's

01:27:38   a lot of stuff that Apple does in services that's okay, it's fine, but does the world

01:27:45   need a Peloton competitor that is paid for by Apple?

01:27:52   Maybe they'll be devoted to quality and it'll be great and all of that, but it feels like

01:27:55   the motivation there is not to bring a wonderful, groundbreaking new concept for fitness to

01:28:01   customers, right?

01:28:02   It feels like it's to skim more money out of the ecosystem and increase the ARPU.

01:28:08   Must increase the ARPU.

01:28:11   Well, in like a year, in two years, how much dead wood are they going to be carrying?

01:28:18   All of these things, they keep starting to add into what will become Apple One, right?

01:28:23   I assume this will be part of Apple One.

01:28:24   Do you keep doing it forever?

01:28:26   Do you kill the ones that don't work out?

01:28:30   Or are they zombified and they just kind of continue on as half?

01:28:36   That's the thing that gets me, right?

01:28:38   Apple has so many things.

01:28:39   I know it's got a lot of money and it can do a lot of things, but it has so many things

01:28:41   at its core that it needs to focus on and that I don't feel like it does.

01:28:46   Even its own apps, it doesn't always focus on.

01:28:49   And yet it is happy to spend money building more of those things that are not at its core

01:28:53   and that are not at the most important to them.

01:28:55   I don't know.

01:28:59   It's very frustrating because it's not as if, here's the thing, it's not as if we look

01:29:07   at all of Apple services and say, you know what?

01:29:10   Apple brought to this what they bring to every product they do, which is this intense focus

01:29:13   on quality.

01:29:15   This is what they say on stage, right?

01:29:16   Intense focus on quality and on the user experience and all of those things.

01:29:20   But a lot of these things just aren't like, they are Me Too products, so they're mediocre

01:29:25   products.

01:29:26   And meanwhile, the existing products have issues that could probably get some more.

01:29:29   And I know that the money, you can't take a person who's working on Apple TV Plus and

01:29:33   have them fix bugs.

01:29:34   Like that's not the case.

01:29:35   But there is this organizational spread that is happening.

01:29:40   And if they had proven that every single one of their things is executed with Apple's famous,

01:29:46   meticulous attention to detail and consumer delight, I would be like, great, I can't wait

01:29:51   to see what they do in fitness.

01:29:53   But I've seen Apple News Plus.

01:29:55   So it's like, I think I would be able to more easily accept it if every single one of them

01:30:05   was fantastic.

01:30:06   I actually at this point, Jason, genuinely believe that TV Plus will be the best, but

01:30:13   it's going to take time.

01:30:15   But I think that they are teeing up enough people, enough content now that they are going

01:30:22   to brute force this one.

01:30:24   Like they will get to a point where it will be worth signing up for Apple One because

01:30:31   you'll get music in TV Plus.

01:30:32   I'll put a link in the show notes to this Ben Smith piece in the New York Times that

01:30:39   is, I don't entirely agree with it.

01:30:43   It's called The Week Old Hollywood Finally Actually Died.

01:30:45   It's a great title.

01:30:46   And it has to do with like the AT&T layoffs at WarnerMedia and all this stuff.

01:30:52   I don't entirely agree with this premise.

01:30:53   I think it's a little bit too simplistic where he says things like, well, HBO Max only has

01:31:00   2 million subscribers or whatever.

01:31:01   HBO Max only has this many subscribers, so that's it.

01:31:03   Disney One and all the rest of these are doomed to failure.

01:31:06   It's like, no, I think that's simplistic and it's too soon.

01:31:11   And this is a very complex market and there's a lot more to fight about.

01:31:16   But I will say that if you buy Ben Smith's premise, what he's essentially saying is Old

01:31:20   Hollywood is dead and now it's a whole bunch of companies with a lot of money trying to

01:31:24   find out what new entertainment industry is.

01:31:27   And if you read the article, the strong impression you get is, who do you think is going to be

01:31:33   better at this?

01:31:34   Netflix, Amazon, maybe even Apple or AT&T and Comcast.

01:31:43   And I think that there's a good argument there.

01:31:46   I think there is an argument to be made that if we are, if there is no, Disney is only

01:31:52   the traditional, is the only traditional entertainment company that is actually fighting this fight

01:31:58   is one of his points.

01:31:59   And I think it's a good one, which is, it's not Disney versus Warner versus Universal

01:32:03   NBC.

01:32:04   It's Disney versus AT&T versus Comcast.

01:32:09   And when you put it that way, it's like, well, it's really Disney's the only entertainment

01:32:11   company out of that group.

01:32:13   The others are phone companies and cable companies that have an offshoot.

01:32:17   And if that's the game now, other than Disney, then who wouldn't, why would you not bet on

01:32:24   Amazon and Netflix and even Apple in a scenario like that?

01:32:28   Is Apple any worse positioned than AT&T in terms of building an entertainment product?

01:32:35   I'm not sure it is in a long, long run.

01:32:38   Yes, AT&T owns Warner Media, but like, is AT&T going to be better in terms of strategy?

01:32:46   I mean, maybe with their, the guy, Jason Killar, who's the CEO now who used to be the Hulu

01:32:51   guy in the early days, maybe, but you're going to put money down on AT&T?

01:32:58   So that is, so when you say that you think Apple might get there, I think you're right.

01:33:02   Apple might get there, even though it's sort of way out of bounds for them.

01:33:05   Like that, that is where the entertainment industry is going is like anybody's game.

01:33:13   So I want there to be a bundle for the same reason I always wanted there to be a bundle.

01:33:16   So I'm just paying one amount of money in the family sharing plan and that's that job

01:33:20   done.

01:33:21   Yes.

01:33:22   Right?

01:33:23   Yes.

01:33:24   Please.

01:33:25   Every time, do you get the push notifications?

01:33:26   I get them now because I'm paying for all my Apple services with Apple pay.

01:33:28   And so I get push notifications whenever I have an Apple pay payment, which means that

01:33:31   I get emails, so I get push notifications every time I make an Apple pay payment, which

01:33:36   happens for all of my recurring Apple things.

01:33:38   And it makes me laugh every time it's like, now I've been charged for this Apple service.

01:33:42   Now I've charged for this.

01:33:43   It just keeps happening.

01:33:44   Stop it.

01:33:45   I would really like for that to be, it's like, yes, I have all your things except for Apple

01:33:50   news plus, cause it wasn't very good, but like I have all your things.

01:33:53   If you can give me a bundle that puts it on one bill and saves me a little bit of money,

01:33:57   but I'm committing to all your things, let's do that.

01:33:59   Let's for my family, let's do it.

01:34:01   I'll sign up.

01:34:02   Give me, give me that.

01:34:03   But I'm not sure that's what we're going to get.

01:34:07   We'll see.

01:34:08   Or at least it's not going to be wildly compelling to people that don't just want what we want,

01:34:13   which is just one payment.

01:34:16   But I think that there is definitely a class of Apple's customers that are the all in on

01:34:20   Apple's ecosystem.

01:34:21   And that that's what that plan is.

01:34:22   It's the all in on Apple's ecosystem plan is Apple all in.

01:34:26   They could use that title if they want all in plus premium.

01:34:30   We should mention by the way, uh, some news that just happened while we were talking,

01:34:35   which is that there is a, there is an Apple bundle.

01:34:38   It's a TV bundle with Viacom CBS.

01:34:43   This is so strange.

01:34:47   If you're in the U S you can get CBS all access and Showtime for nine 99 a month if you are

01:34:53   already an Apple TV plus subscriber.

01:34:55   Yeah.

01:34:56   So it's a subscription within a subscription to hat on a hat as Merlin would say.

01:35:00   So yeah.

01:35:01   So if you are an Apple TV plus subscriber, you can then like get CBS all access and Showtime

01:35:07   as a bundle inside the TV app for $10 a month.

01:35:12   So it's like a bundle inside a service, but uh, it is interesting that they've cut, they've

01:35:17   cut this deal.

01:35:18   Um, but it's not, so like if you don't get Apple TV plus, I guess you don't get this.

01:35:23   I already have CBS all access and Showtime, so I'm not going to be able to avail myself

01:35:28   of this particular bundle.

01:35:30   Um, cause I have all the things already, but uh, it, I think what it says more than anything

01:35:37   else is that Viacom's CBS is a, a free agent that's willing to make all sorts of different

01:35:43   deals because they don't, they don't at least yet even have the aspirations to be what AT&T

01:35:51   and Comcast are.

01:35:52   They're, they're kind of smaller and they're out on their own and they are happy to make

01:35:57   deals with Apple for stuff like this.

01:36:00   Yeah.

01:36:01   We, we've posited the potential idea of what if Apple bought them?

01:36:03   Well, yeah, it doesn't look like that's going to be happening anytime soon.

01:36:07   Who knows?

01:36:10   This episode is brought to you by Pingdom from SolarWinds.

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01:37:41   Okay, Mr. Jason Snow, it's time for some hashtag ask upgrade questions.

01:37:49   Wolf wants to know, when the first Apple Silicon iMacs are released, what is the likelihood

01:37:54   that they will be accompanied by a new mouse?

01:37:59   I haven't even been thinking about Apple adding, changing its peripherals because I think they're

01:38:06   pretty good.

01:38:08   Now that Wolf mentions it, like could be everybody mocks that mouse because it charges on its

01:38:15   underside, which is not so great.

01:38:18   So I don't know.

01:38:19   What do you think?

01:38:20   I mean, I think the likelihood is greater than normal, but it's never a very big likelihood.

01:38:25   So 10%, 20%?

01:38:26   I know this is a terrible answer, but I think it just depends because it kind of really

01:38:37   says like, how much are they going to change the design of the iMac?

01:38:42   If they really change it, maybe the current peripherals will look out of place.

01:38:49   What if it comes, it's black?

01:38:53   That's the color that it comes in.

01:38:54   Well, they have a black version of the Magic Mouse, but is it time to change it?

01:39:02   I kind of wonder if really people are buying the trackpad now more than the mouse anyway.

01:39:09   I would think so.

01:39:10   And I don't really think they need to do anything to the trackpad.

01:39:13   Yeah, I don't know.

01:39:15   I don't like the Magic Mouse myself.

01:39:18   I find it really uncomfortable to use.

01:39:20   Yeah.

01:39:21   When I got the review unit of the new iMac, I didn't realize there was a Magic Trackpad

01:39:28   in the box.

01:39:29   I only saw the mouse.

01:39:30   There was both.

01:39:32   And so I started using the mouse.

01:39:34   I hate it.

01:39:35   It's so bad.

01:39:36   I rely on pinch and zoom and all these gestures that it can't do.

01:39:42   And I don't like mice anyway, but I got to spend a little time with it and I still hate

01:39:48   it.

01:39:49   And then I found that there was the trackpad in the box.

01:39:51   The Magic Mouse, I know that people like it because it has some gestures, right?

01:39:57   And that is cool.

01:39:59   But really, you just get a mouse from another company that has a button or two on it and

01:40:04   you can replicate that stuff by and large.

01:40:07   Like if you have to use a mouse.

01:40:08   Because then you go to a trackpad for all of the additional gestures a trackpad gets

01:40:13   you like pinching and zooming, which I do not believe that the Magic Mouse can do.

01:40:17   I don't think it pinches the zoom.

01:40:20   So yeah, it's not for me.

01:40:21   This is actually a related question that comes from Nicholas.

01:40:25   Nicholas wants to know if we have any recommendations for ergonomic peripherals for the Mac.

01:40:30   I have none, so go for it.

01:40:32   Oh, I've got some.

01:40:34   So all right, so I have a few.

01:40:36   Some work better than others for the Mac.

01:40:39   You know, it's like one that I'll recommend is a keyboard that I'm using right now, which

01:40:42   is called the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard.

01:40:45   This is a keyboard that was recommended to me by Michael Ament a long time ago.

01:40:49   And I know many other people that use it.

01:40:51   It is a Microsoft keyboard, so it is a PC keyboard.

01:40:55   You do have to kind of embrace that and maybe swap some stuff around.

01:40:59   You're also going to always have a Windows logo in front of you.

01:41:03   But look, it's a great keyboard.

01:41:05   It's a part split keyboard.

01:41:07   So it kind of basically the advantage to this keyboard is that your hands aren't like completely

01:41:16   straight towards the computer.

01:41:18   So you're not bending your wrists at a weird angle.

01:41:23   An ergonomic keyboard, a split keyboard like this allows you to kind of place your hands

01:41:27   on the keyboard in what I and many other people consider to be a more comfortable kind of

01:41:34   orientation.

01:41:35   I don't only use this keyboard or split keyboard, but I do quite frequently.

01:41:41   My big thing about ergonomics with peripherals, the thing that works for me is to use lots

01:41:47   of different ones and not just to focus on one thing for one time for a long period of

01:41:53   time.

01:41:54   So that's one keyboard.

01:41:55   If you want to get what I think to be a nicer experience from a split keyboard, I will recommend

01:42:02   to you two products.

01:42:04   One is called the Dygma Raise, which is DYGMA.

01:42:07   This is my favorite keyboard, but it is a mechanical keyboard.

01:42:12   It's a clicky keyboard.

01:42:13   So I can't use it while I'm recording here.

01:42:15   It's the one that I have a cherry brown switches on it because it's too noisy.

01:42:19   But this is the keyboard that I do the vast majority of my typing on.

01:42:23   I think it's fantastic.

01:42:24   It has RGB.

01:42:25   If you want it, you can adjust it, you can change it.

01:42:28   This is my favorite keyboard.

01:42:30   I will also recommend or at least suggest the Ergodox keyboards because they are definitely

01:42:37   the more popular of the split keyboard.

01:42:40   I see this one around, but visually I prefer the Dygma Raise.

01:42:43   And I also like the layout of some of the buttons a little better than the Ergodox keyboard.

01:42:50   I'm being told by Sam in the chat room about silent mechanical switches.

01:42:54   Yeah, I am aware of them and I'm thinking about it for a future keyboard purchase for

01:43:00   maybe to get a different split keyboard that I like more.

01:43:02   But anyway, I like my the keyboards that I write on the most to have some clickiness

01:43:06   to them because that's fun.

01:43:08   So they're the keyboards that I would recommend.

01:43:10   When it comes to mice, I have three products from Logitech that I will also recommend.

01:43:15   One is the very aptly named MX Ergo, which is a trackball mouse.

01:43:22   So you don't move the mouse, you use your thumb to control the trackball.

01:43:27   And I use this mouse every day with my iPad Pro.

01:43:30   I have it connected via Bluetooth to that.

01:43:33   And so when I put my iPad in the stand, I use this.

01:43:36   I also will recommend the MX Master 3, which is Logitech's like premium mouse, like it's

01:43:42   the one that everybody knows and uses.

01:43:45   I find it to be a much more comfortable experience to use than say Apple's mouse.

01:43:50   And then another one, which is another product that I'm using right now is the MX Vertical,

01:43:55   which is a vertical mouse.

01:43:57   So instead of your hand being like horizontal to the desk, it is vertical to the desk in

01:44:02   its orientation.

01:44:04   And again, like I use a combination of these things and a trackpad.

01:44:08   And I also use a Wacom tablet to allow for my hands to my arms to feel comfortable when

01:44:14   using computers for long periods of time.

01:44:16   But these are my recommendations.

01:44:18   Do with them as you will.

01:44:20   I strongly recommend that people look into products like this right now.

01:44:26   If you are a new at home worker, I am genuinely very concerned about the ergonomics of people

01:44:34   that have found themselves all of a sudden working from home because it takes a while

01:44:40   for these problems to develop.

01:44:43   So please do whatever you can to try and be sensible with your ergonomic environment.

01:44:50   Get a good chair, get a good desk where you can.

01:44:54   And you know, but if that stuff's difficult for you, look into some of these products.

01:44:59   Plus the Dygma Raise, the OgoDox, they're really cool keyboards.

01:45:02   And you might have fun with it because then you can start getting custom key sets and

01:45:07   like key caps and you can put them on and you can make it look really cool.

01:45:11   And then you can have awesome RGB lighting, you know, go wild with it.

01:45:14   Janos asks, do you track a room temperature or overall home temperature at all with any

01:45:21   technology?

01:45:22   Jason, to you, I know you're a weather person.

01:45:24   Does that also include the indoors?

01:45:26   Yeah, well the, so my weather console that's attached to my weather station wirelessly

01:45:31   has a temperature sensor in it.

01:45:33   So there's an indoor temperature sensor in that.

01:45:37   And I use that.

01:45:38   And then my, I have a Nest smart thermostat, so that's got the indoor temperature in it.

01:45:43   And both of those, I can use Homebridge to get those temperatures into HomeKit.

01:45:48   So I have them that way.

01:45:49   My understanding is that there are a bunch of smart home sensors you can buy.

01:45:52   And there are also some sensors that actually come with like smart home things that do other

01:45:57   stuff, but also have a temperature sensor in them that can be read.

01:46:00   So there's a bunch out there for that purpose.

01:46:04   But for me, since I already have that, the weather station console and the Nest, I already

01:46:09   have multiple ways to detect the temperature in my house.

01:46:13   I use the Canary, the smart home security system thing.

01:46:18   And that actually has a temperature sensor in it, which is useful.

01:46:21   I found that useful when it's been hot because I could get a basic readout of the main room

01:46:25   in my house, how hot it is.

01:46:27   But I've been thinking about maybe getting something cheaper for other rooms and also

01:46:32   for the studio.

01:46:33   I might look into that at some point.

01:46:36   Last question comes from Brent.

01:46:37   Brent wants to know, "Zoom seems to be a particularly bad offender for making fans spin.

01:46:43   How do you handle podcast recording when guests don't have an iMac Pro or a fanless machine?

01:46:49   Do you just make sure people aren't multitasking?"

01:46:52   Jason, I know that you deal with guests and people that aren't in fixed environments way

01:46:58   more than me.

01:47:00   Do you have any particular recommendations here?

01:47:02   No.

01:47:06   My recommendation is that I bought an iMac Pro not just because it's quiet, but because

01:47:14   I needed the power to denoise all of the audio tracks of all the people in these podcasts

01:47:19   who are on my podcast because there are going to be laptop fan noises and that's just going

01:47:25   to happen.

01:47:26   And I remove them and hope it sounds okay.

01:47:29   And that's about it.

01:47:31   I don't have a really great solution there.

01:47:35   Have them use the app and not the web browser.

01:47:41   Video is worse than just audio.

01:47:44   Don't use video.

01:47:46   When Brent said they're using Zoom, I'm assuming there might be a video component.

01:47:50   Obviously, video is more processor-intensive than audio, so turn off video.

01:47:56   And get your microphone away from the computer.

01:48:00   Get the microphone, if they have an external microphone that they're using for a podcast

01:48:04   or something, have them put the computer on the far side of the desk.

01:48:11   Move it as far away as possible.

01:48:12   And if you're doing video, there are other issues there.

01:48:15   But that's often the killer is that the microphone is right next to the laptop that's blowing

01:48:19   its fans and that's the worst.

01:48:23   If you would like to send in a question for the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag

01:48:27   AskUpgrade or use ?AskUpgrade in the Relay FM members Discord, which you can get access

01:48:32   to along with many other wonderful benefits by going to getupgradeplus.com.

01:48:38   If you stay tuned after the theme song, if you're an Upgrade Plus subscriber for more,

01:48:43   and you will so as well as getting these bonus segments and bonus content, you can upgrade

01:48:48   with no ads.

01:48:49   Go to getupgradeplus.com to sign up today.

01:48:52   If you want to find out more about this episode, you can go to relay.fm/upgrade/311.

01:48:58   I want to thank Jason as always.

01:49:00   So if you go to sixcolors.com, you go to @jasonljfnell, you can find Jason's wonderful content.

01:49:07   If you want more podcasts of Jason on, there are many more here at Relay FM and many more

01:49:11   at theinc comparable.com as well.

01:49:14   I am i Myke, I am Y-K-E. If you want to find me online, don't forget 1130 a.m. Eastern

01:49:20   on August 18th at twitch.tv/relayfm.

01:49:23   We're going to do something fun there for a little bit.

01:49:26   Come hang out, come join.

01:49:27   And thanks to Mint Mobile, Pingdom, and Bombas for their support of this show, and thank

01:49:32   you for listening.

01:49:34   We'll be back next time.

01:49:35   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:49:36   Goodbye everybody.

01:49:37   [music]

01:49:44   [music]