0:00:00[Intro music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 310.
0:00:12And today's show is brought to you by TextExpander from Smile, KiwiCo, and Hover.
0:00:18My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell!
0:00:22Hi, Myke Hurley, how are you?
0:00:23I am very well, I am very well. Summer of fun, rolling on.
0:00:27Summer of fun!
0:00:28I have a #SnellTalk question from MJ and MJ wants to know,
0:00:32"Do you use your AirPods for phone calls, Jason? If you do, do you use the left, the right,
0:00:37AirPod, or both at the same time?"
0:00:39Um, I, I not only use my AirPods for phone calls, I only do phone calls on AirPods.
0:00:47Mmm.
0:00:48I don't want to have my phone against my face, I don't like it. I don't want a speaker phone.
0:00:53So if somebody's calling me, if I'm like, "Oh, Apple's calling to give you a briefing in a minute."
0:00:57I will-
0:00:57Oh, humblebrag.
0:00:58I will put in- well, it happens, it's my job. I put my AirPods in and I'll actually even, like,
0:01:02play music or something so I know that they're connected to my iPhone and then I'll wait for
0:01:06the call because I want to get that call. And if I'm placing an outgoing call, same thing. So,
0:01:10yes, both also, not left or right. Both, I do both.
0:01:14I do both when I use it, but I do also, uh, I do speaker phone sometimes. Like, if I'm just
0:01:21in my office in my studio or whatever, I just put it on speaker phone.
0:01:25Especially if I'm, like, calling and I have to use the number pad thing, you know, like,
0:01:31"Press one to-" I just like speaker phone for those. But I do use AirPods too.
0:01:36Alright.
0:01:36That's a good question. Thank you, MJ, for sending in your #snowtalk question.
0:01:40It's very easy to do this if you'd like to send in a question to help us start an episode of Upgrade.
0:01:44You send out a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk or use the question mark snowtalk command in
0:01:49the Relay FM members Discord. They get included on a sheet and it may be put in to a future episode.
0:01:54Snowtalk began as a way to stop us from talking about the weather every week because people don't
0:02:01want to hear us talk about the weather, but I need to talk about the weather right now, Jason Snow.
0:02:04Okay, sure. I mean, if it's you wanting to talk about the weather, I guess it's okay. Fine.
0:02:08It is 92 degrees Fahrenheit right now in London. Very similar temperature inside of my office where
0:02:17I am right now at home. So, I do have a fan in the background. I've put it on a very minimal setting.
0:02:25And I'm going to try and take it all out with sound removal, but I just wanted to apologize
0:02:29to Upgrade and see if they can hear it. But otherwise, I would melt by the end of the episode.
0:02:33So, it would be no use to anybody because I would just be a puddle under my desk.
0:02:38I find stories of London being very hot now. It's now very nostalgic to me because, of course,
0:02:43when we were all in London for your wedding, it was similarly miserably hot. The whole week we
0:02:50were there was absolutely scorching on my wedding day painfully hot. So now it's like, oh, riding
0:02:58on the top of a double decker bus packed with people and it was murderously hot. Oh, good times,
0:03:03good times. I will always have great love for my friends who dressed up in suits on an absolutely
0:03:09boiling day. James Thompson is in the chat room was in a wall killed with the whole garb. He looked
0:03:16incredible, but was a very, I'm sure, sweaty person. I was very pleased that the reception
0:03:22venue had incredible air conditioning. Everything up to that point did not. The chapel wasn't too
0:03:29hot because it was a big stone building, but like all of the movements in between, very sweaty day.
0:03:34I was in a three-piece suit that day. It was a hot day. That's true. Dan Morin got married
0:03:39in Massachusetts in the summer and it was similarly hot. So, it's like, we Americans know
0:03:45about hot summer weddings, but you're not supposed to, it's not supposed to be like that in London,
0:03:50but it was. So anyway, good times. You're having wedding weather is what I'm saying. Wedding
0:03:54weather, Myke. I know, look at me. Literally any person right now who is going to Twitter or to
0:03:58email to tell me, that's not hot. We get a hundred, like wherever you're writing to me from, I
0:04:05guarantee that everything around you is built for that heat, right? Like we do not have air
0:04:10conditioning here, for example. Nobody has it because that's not what our homes were built for.
0:04:16We don't have it here either. And people will say, oh, it's not so bad. And it's like, yeah,
0:04:21we don't have air conditioning. I have like a window fan. That's the best. That's my air
0:04:26conditioning. So it's, by the way, just for the record, 60 degrees and foggy here. So yeah.
0:04:34We should be much better midweek. We just got a hot few days here. All right. So that's enough
0:04:38weather talk. Let's do some upstream headlines. I've got a bunch of stuff because we didn't do any
0:04:43last week because of the iMac, which we're going to be talking about again in a little bit,
0:04:46but I have some Apple TV Plus related news for you. So there is a trailer for Ted Lasso,
0:04:51which has come out, which is, uh, that's coming out on August 14th. If you remember,
0:04:56this is the Jason Sudeikis, um, comedy show of a NFL coach who is hired by a British football team
0:05:07to become the manager of that team. And what makes this interesting, by the way,
0:05:11the trailer looks good. I'm actually excited for this. I love Jason Sudeikis and this looks very
0:05:16funny and it holds up to the promise of the initial character, um, which of, of Ted Lasso,
0:05:24which was created by, I believe, NBC to promote NBC getting the premier league football.
0:05:31Yes. I think that's right. In an ad.
0:05:34And Apple bought the rights to this character from a TV ad to create a show out of, which by the way,
0:05:41I think is pretty inspired because it's a great character. It's almost like if somebody,
0:05:46I don't know, bought rights to the old spice guy or something. Right.
0:05:49Like it sure looks like they made this, like they made it in England and everybody else in it seems
0:05:54to be an English actor. And then there's Jason Sudeikis.
0:05:57I know so many places where they're filming this. I'm looking, I'm like, I know where that is. I
0:06:01know where that is. So yeah, they look like they've treated it well. Uh, and it looks really funny.
0:06:06And, uh, I'm, I'm actually really excited about this. I think this could be a sleeper hit for,
0:06:10for Apple TV. The trailer was great. It pushed all my buttons too. Cause it's, it's like,
0:06:14it's a funny premise. Uh, because I like, uh, I like football, uh, American and British English
0:06:21football. I like them both. I like, and I know the cliches. Um, I like England and, and, you know,
0:06:29having watched a lot of British TV and stuff like that. So that's all, all of these contrasts
0:06:33between the two cultures are, are very funny. I think that there's potential there. And also
0:06:36it seems to be a, uh, you know, scrappy underdog learns life lessons along the way kind of sports
0:06:46movie style story too. And I'm kind of a sucker for that too. So, uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
0:06:52Matt Walter There is a new show on Apple TV+ debuted on July 30th. The Oprah conversation is
0:07:00an interview series, which is a probably a pretty, a pretty thick, great thing that they could be
0:07:04doing right now because these can be conducted, uh, when you're apart, which is what they're
0:07:08doing. Um, the first few episodes, I think there's one out and there's a couple more coming out.
0:07:13The first few episodes are focusing on racial issues. So the first, um, is with Eran X. Kendi,
0:07:18who is, uh, who did this episode was called how to be an anti-racist. And then there is a two
0:07:24part conversation with Emmanuelle Eco, um, along similar lines, um, looking at a lot of racial
0:07:30injustice issues and stuff like that and how to address them. Um, so that's, it's a timely thing.
0:07:35And Oprah is a great voice, right? So if you're going to talk about issues like this, so it makes
0:07:41a lot of sense that they would push this button right now, if you remember, uh, Apple and Oprah
0:07:46have an overall deal. So yeah, this is the great Apple Oprah relationship, uh, in another,
0:07:52another tentacle, another, uh, another example of that, that connection that they've got. Yep.
0:07:57Makes a lot of sense. This is clearly what would have just been a podcast, but now they can make
0:08:01it into a TV show because this is how TV looks right now. It's like two people in their own homes
0:08:07and cameras with them. Uh, Apple have signed a new thriller starring Elizabeth Moss of the
0:08:13Handmaid's Tale, Mad Men. It's called Shining Girls based on the novel by Lauren Buekes about
0:08:19a time traveling killer. That's right. He kills the shining girls. That's who the shining girls
0:08:26are. The, the, the targets of the time traveling killer. And this is a, I haven't read this. I
0:08:31have it on my Kindle. It's apparently a very good book. And, uh, I was surprised to see that, uh,
0:08:35it's, uh, here it is. It's a going to Apple TV plus, uh, the new detective drama starring Robert
0:08:42Downey Jr on the way. It's produced by the production company, Team Downey, which is owned
0:08:47by Robert and Susan Downey. Um, I, Downey, it's Downey by Downey starring Downey. Yeah.
0:08:53They produced by Downey and Downey. Uh, I just think that it's wild like this, the names that
0:09:02keep getting added to Apple slate. Right. Iron Man now is here. So yeah, another big one. Sure.
0:09:10Why not? Everybody, everybody wants that. The question is, and this is the classic question is,
0:09:15is this a, is this a project that is good or is this one of those quibby kind of projects
0:09:21that sort of like, eh, we have the wall take, I'll take their money. Right. Kind of thing. But,
0:09:26um, but still it's, you know, big movie stars doing, doing, uh, streaming TV. That's where
0:09:32we live now. Jason, can you remind me in the upgrade Ian's what the PAC 12 is?
0:09:37A PAC 12 is a college conference on the West coast, uh, that features, uh, many different
0:09:43college sports, uh, organizations and colleges, uh, including, you know, USC and UCLA and Washington
0:09:52and Oregon, uh, the Oregon ducks. My, my daughter is an Oregon duck. And of course the most important
0:09:56of all the university of California golden bears, as we all know. So go bears, by the way,
0:10:01the winner of the U S open in Gulf this weekend, uh, was a cow guy. Go bears roll on you bears.
0:10:06I'm going to do it, Myke. You can't stop me. You could edit it out though. I don't even know what
0:10:10it means. It's a roll on your bears. It's a, it's a thing. It's college. Anyway. Um, we talked here
0:10:15about the possibility of Apple sniffing around a bunch of different life life sports kind of
0:10:19options and sports deals for the future. And there was a report that said that although Apple is
0:10:24still interested in, uh, in getting sports rights, they are likely to not bid on PAC 12 rights and,
0:10:31and their perception here, and this may also be a broader issue is that, you know, or maybe they're
0:10:37just letting them down easy. I don't know. They're saying that, that, you know, a, a college deal like
0:10:40this is unlikely to have international appeal that, you know, in Australia, they're not going
0:10:44to be really excited about seeing, you know, the university of Washington play USC and football.
0:10:49Um, but, uh, I still think that there's a lot of money to be made in, uh, live sports for streamers,
0:10:58but it may be that Apple, it depends on what Apple wants strategically. Like Apple,
0:11:02if it's thinking international, then Apple is going to be bidding on some very different things
0:11:06than if it's thinking about getting something that's going to have a lot of viewership in the
0:11:09U S because world sport is different than sports in the U S in terms of priority. There are, there's
0:11:15some overlap, like there's international appeal for some sports, but college football, especially
0:11:21is not really one of them. So, uh, we'll see what happens. But anyway, this report is that the Apple,
0:11:27Apple did talk to the PAC 12 about sports rights, but, uh, is, is kind of moving on and is unlikely
0:11:32to bid. But, uh, the bigger issue here to watch for upstream purposes is really what are the,
0:11:38what are the deals being made by streamers? As we mentioned a couple of weeks ago, CBS bought the,
0:11:44uh, the champions league and they put it on CBS all access, uh, which is an interesting decision.
0:11:52Another, another interesting note is the FA cup was last weekend, not this just passed,
0:11:57but the weekend before that, which is a championship of a tournament of English
0:12:01soccer. We're back to English soccer again, uh, won by arsenal, by the way. Um, boy,
0:12:06I'm just plugging all my team. Um, one by arsenal beating the hated, uh, evil Chelsea. So
0:12:16anyway, um, that aired ESPN had the rights to that in the U S and they put it on ESPN plus
0:12:22they were showing like billiards or something. Cornhole. I don't know what it was. They were
0:12:29showing nothing on one on ESPN too at that moment, but they chose to keep the FA cup final off of
0:12:38their linear cable channel and put it on there for pay streaming service. Right. Shows you where the
0:12:43money is. Doesn't it? Interesting data point, right? Where they're like, well, we could put
0:12:47this on ESPN too. Yes, we could do that. Or we could force everybody to buy ESPN plus in order
0:12:52to see it. And this is again, we're going to, this is just the beginning of fans, especially
0:12:58of various sporting events getting irate because they have to buy a streaming service in order to
0:13:02see their thing, but it's going to happen just like fans got irate when they move things off
0:13:06of broadcast in the U S to cable. And everybody got really angry about that. I'm like, I have to
0:13:11pay to see this. I can't just get this with my antenna. Well, this is the next frontier of that,
0:13:16which is you're going to have to pay a streaming service subscription in order to get access to
0:13:21this stuff. It's inevitable. I think that there is a potential upper part to this pack 12 thing,
0:13:29or just Apple sport in general, maybe they've just realized that 2020 is just a bad time to be
0:13:35getting sports rights. Like it is maybe a little uncertain. Well, it depends on your
0:13:41feeling about it. I would imagine that everybody involved in sports imagines that sports will
0:13:47bounce back and that anybody who can get a deal buying it for a slight discount is probably getting
0:13:54a deal because it will bounce back. And I think it will. Right. I think that there's no doubt that
0:13:59sports is going to bounce back, but, um, there will be a rough patch here. It's also possible
0:14:06that a lot of the owners here looking at their, uh, lack of fans in the stands, lack of ticket
0:14:10sales are going to want another revenue stream. Right. And they're going to want to sell some
0:14:14rights right now so they can get some cash in their pocket. Right. But I guess for, for a
0:14:20company like Apple, it's about the right deal at the right time. Right. Like, you know, you can,
0:14:26they might want sports, but not PAC 12, you know, like, like we said, for sure. I think that that's
0:14:32a good example of that. And the PAC 12 stuff wasn't going to come up for another like two
0:14:35or three years. And I think that's another factor here is that a lot of these sports rights go out
0:14:40for years and years, and then there's a big moment where the bids happen. And so, um, this is going
0:14:46to be slow moving as with so many of the rights things we talk about on upstream, it's going to
0:14:51be slow moving, but there will be mark my words, like there will be that moment and we'll all know
0:14:56it when we see it, when something comes up for bid that has always been on traditional TV. And one of
0:15:03the bidders is a streaming service. And even if they don't get it, if like, it's a serious
0:15:08possibility that they're going to get it. That's going to be that moment where people are like,
0:15:12Oh, what? Like I thought the NFL was always going to be on my local CBS TV station and now it's on
0:15:18Amazon. How do I, what? Right. And that's going to happen. It's, it's something like that will happen.
0:15:23Mark Duplass who played Chip on the morning show has told Deadline that season two is actually
0:15:30being rewritten to reflect the pandemic. So the funny thing, if you'd call it funny, the
0:15:36interesting thing, uh, that is to be thought on about this is they rewrote the first season to
0:15:42include, uh, the me too movement as one of the main, really the main plot point of the show.
0:15:49And now they're doing it again, uh, to reflect the plan for the pandemic, which is it an interesting
0:15:56thing to do? I was wondering, Jason, if this may allow them to resume shooting some way for them
0:16:02to find ways to do this remotely, if that's the route they want to go down, uh, do plus also
0:16:08confirmed the deadline. They'd only shot two episodes of the show before being closed down.
0:16:15I had the same thought, which is, I wonder if there's something to be done here about the,
0:16:23you know, we've seen different TV productions try to grapple with the pandemic and have people
0:16:31recording from home and reporting from home and all of that. And then you get a skeleton crew back
0:16:34in a studio, but you've got like, I could see them trying to emulate that and sort of tell that story.
0:16:40The problem I've got with it is, is anybody going to want to see that in a year? I don't know.
0:16:45Right. Like, Oh, Hey, Hey everybody, we just got out. Remember the pain. It's like, yeah,
0:16:50I do remember. There's that thing. I think we talked about it here. Somebody was pointing out
0:16:54that, um, there is very little art about the, um, the flu pandemic a hundred years ago. There's like
0:17:02very little in the way of like novels or any art influenced by it. And there is a thought that
0:17:10everybody lived through it and no one wanted to relive it. And so nobody talked about it
0:17:14and nobody made art about it. And it just kind of, because nobody wanted to hear that. Like we all,
0:17:20we all get it. There was a pandemic. We get it. And I wonder about something like this too,
0:17:25that if you really lean into your pandemic season and the pandemic is maybe waning,
0:17:30when it comes out, everybody's like, I don't want to, why would I want to relive that?
0:17:35So there's, there's some risk there too. But, um, then again, if they're really trying to
0:17:40shoot their season and they don't know how they're going to be able to do it, um, you know,
0:17:45it's also possible that they'll do it for like a couple episodes and then kind of break out of it,
0:17:50but I don't know. I, I, it's a tough position to be in, to be wanting to produce your show and
0:17:55having shut down mid season and feeling like it's timely and feeling like you want to be current.
0:18:02But, um, I don't know. Disney is releasing Mulan on Disney plus,
0:18:09but with a catch it's coming out on September 4th, but it will be a $30 purchase for Disney
0:18:15plus subscribers on top of your subscription. It will act like a purchase. So it stays in your
0:18:21account. It's not like you're not paying $30 to rent it is my understanding. Um, it seems a little
0:18:26unclear right now, if they're going to also be selling Mulan, right? Like, will you be able to
0:18:31pay $35 and buy it on iTunes? For example, I don't see how you will. Um, it doesn't seem
0:18:37not originally right. Because it's tied to Disney plus you have to be paying them already
0:18:42for the right to pay them more. Yeah. So I agree with you, but just in the reports that I read it,
0:18:47they're basically saying we've asked and haven't got confirmation. So, but why would they specify
0:18:52Disney plus what if they sold it for $40 outside? Right. But nevertheless, right. But I agree with
0:18:57you. I'm sure it's going to be Disney plus only, but like, for example, they're still putting it
0:19:01in theaters in places where Disney plus isn't available. So it kind of seems like Disney is
0:19:06flying by the seat of their pants at this one, which makes sense. Uh, I think that this is
0:19:11not good for Mulan. Honestly. Uh, I think that $30 is a lot. I will push back on that a little bit
0:19:20because if you're a family going to see a family Disney movie in a movie theater,
0:19:26you pay more than $30. No, I understand. So like the idea of putting them iTunes and stuff like
0:19:31that $30, I think $30 is a lot when you're already paying $6 a month. I've seen some people say that
0:19:36maybe this is the, this is actually a new way that Disney, uh, justifies keeping their Disney
0:19:42plus monthly subscription artificially low is by having it be an artificially low gateway into
0:19:49a buying environment where they then charge you a lot of money for a bunch of extras.
0:19:54Interesting thought. Yeah. So I can, would I pay it? Yeah, probably. Am I going to get it? I
0:19:59reckon I am. Um, I, I think it's just like, I did have an initial sticker shock on this one
0:20:05because I saw, Oh, great. Disney plus Oh, what $30. Right. And I think that surprised me.
0:20:10And, and you and Adina could go see it in the movie theater and you wouldn't pay $30 probably.
0:20:15No, but I, I took the last time we went to see a movie. I can't even remember what movie it was,
0:20:21but I remember all four of us went to see it and it cost, it cost a lot of money. Like I was like,
0:20:29Oh my God. And I thought I need to remember this moment. Although obviously not the movie.
0:20:34It's probably a Marvel movie or a star Wars movie. I remember this moment because when they try to
0:20:39get you to pay for this at home, this is what they're going to ask you to pay is something
0:20:43like this, because this is what a family of four going to the movies pays, which is, you know,
0:20:4935, $40, depending on where you live, it's going to vary, but you know, it's in the ballpark.
0:20:55Yeah. And, uh, I think what's interesting is it's not a rental. So as long as you stay on Disney,
0:21:00plus you have access to watch it so you can watch it again and again and again, which is good.
0:21:05A lot of these kids have been rentals. Um, so the idea, so I actually I'm coming around to this a
0:21:11little bit more like that. If you know, like the fact that you paid at $30 and it's like quote
0:21:15unquote a purchase for as long as you're a Disney plus subscriber, that's pretty good too. I think,
0:21:19we have Matt right in with a question, but Matt said, do you think Apple will get their cut
0:21:26for Disney plus from Mulan when it's on their platforms?
0:21:30Well, you can, you can rent and buy movies on Amazon now, um, on Apple TV and, uh, is Apple
0:21:38giving a cut of that? Maybe they are behind the scenes, but they're not using in-app purchase.
0:21:41Oh, uh, interesting. I think Apple coming from those documents that we were talking about last
0:21:46time, that would be if, uh, some with Amazon, if somebody has come to it and they were already a
0:21:54customer, they'd go through Amazon. If they started with Apple, it goes to Apple.
0:21:58Yeah. So it may be something like that, but I think this fits into that scenario where
0:22:04on at least on Apple TV, you should be able to buy Mulan in Disney plus app and, you know,
0:22:10maybe Apple gets cut. Maybe Apple doesn't get a cut. Who cares?
0:22:12Apple. We'll talk about this later on, but I think at the moment, Apple care about this stuff quite
0:22:20a lot in fact. So you can sign up like there is in-app purchases and at least on the website,
0:22:27I can see it. I don't know how obfuscated they are and some apps do that, but you can sign up
0:22:31for Disney plus, um, in app. So I guess it might be a similar thing. Yeah. No, that, that may be the
0:22:39scenario there. I would like to know, by the way, if any of our listeners, uh, did sign up through
0:22:45the app store, uh, I signed up on the web cause I got the discount deal. Right. If you signed up in
0:22:52the app store and you get Mulan, I would love to know, uh, if you went through the IAP process.
0:22:59So we'll find out September 4th, but I want to mention, I know that we have a bumper crop of,
0:23:04of upstream stuff here, but I want to mention one other big story that we haven't didn't even have
0:23:08on our list, but I want to throw it in with this Mulan thing, because I think they're all related,
0:23:12which is, um, a federal judge is ending the dis the consent decree against paramount for movie
0:23:18theaters. And this sounds very dry, but the point here is in the U S for a long time, it has been
0:23:24illegal for movie studios to create this vertical integration where they also run, uh, movie theaters.
0:23:33And this has been happening since the late 1940s, there was a Supreme court decision in 1948,
0:23:40U S versus paramount pictures and the, um, a federal judge in New York granted a motion
0:23:48by the U S department of justice to terminate that. And what this means is that between the
0:23:56pandemic and the consent, consent degree going away, the theater business is never going to be
0:24:03the same because, and I saw some speculation about this and we don't know how this is going to go,
0:24:09but I saw somebody make a really smart point, which is imagine a chain of Disney theaters,
0:24:16where they show Disney releases. It's a Disney-fied experience. You pay more,
0:24:23but it's more magical because it's Disney and Disney can like, it is just, it's full on. It's
0:24:31like, it's like going into Disneyland or on a Disney cruise or something like that,
0:24:35except it's the, your local Disney showcase theater in major markets. What does the removal
0:24:42of the consent decree allow? It means that movie studios can own movie theaters. So that means that
0:24:47in theory, Disney doesn't have to supply their movies to theaters that they don't want to give
0:24:53them to. And theater chains would probably say, well, we're not going to take your movies anywhere.
0:24:57If you open your own movie theaters, I would imagine that what will happen is that Disney
0:25:01will say, fine, we are opening our own movie theaters and all these major markets. And
0:25:05if you'd like it in the minor markets, there's an audience there and somebody's going to take it.
0:25:10And if it's you then fine. But if not, then, you know, then they'll, they'll instead,
0:25:14they'll rent it on Disney plus. Right. Like, I don't know who knows how this is all going
0:25:22to play out, but a lot of the decades long, um, control systems in the U S at least have been
0:25:32removed while streaming now has become more prominent because of the pandemic. And then
0:25:38let's just throw in also technology is way better. Like the sound and picture on my TV set in my
0:25:44house is also of a, of a quality now where I wouldn't mind just watching all new releases on
0:25:50it. I don't feel like I even need to go to a movie theater. It's not true for everybody, but it's
0:25:54true for some portion of the audience. So like you throw all this together, things are going to get
0:25:59weird. That's what I'm saying. Things are going to get really weird once, once there are movie
0:26:03theaters and back in the U S and like over the next decade, how does this all work out? But I
0:26:08don't think we're going to be going back to what we had before. I think those days are over.
0:26:12**Bes McElhaney** One last piece on this while we're talking about it, AMC just did that deal
0:26:16with universal and they're offering it to other studios too, where a movie can come out on
0:26:21streaming or well for rental 17 days after the theatrical release. Like, um, uh, I know this
0:26:29might upset people, whatever, but the movie theaters are crumbling now like that.
0:26:33**Matt Stauffer** Well, and, and that, that actually fits with what movie theaters are for now,
0:26:37right? Cause movie theaters now are for big blockbusters and they want you to see it in
0:26:41the theater. And if you think about Disney, you know, Disney, Marvel, Star Wars, Disney is, is
0:26:46the biggest movie studio out there. **Bes McElhaney** You want to see them in the theater.
0:26:49You want to. **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. Could they schedule their releases so that there's,
0:26:53that every Disney theater near you is like, it's a handful of screens, but they're big screens.
0:26:58And it's always some movie that's come out in the last two weeks or three weeks that everybody
0:27:01wants to see. And then as soon as that's done two, three weeks after that, it's on Disney plus
0:27:07as a, as a rental or something like that. **Bes McElhaney** You can imagine as well,
0:27:10like if Disney owned the theater, then every theater screen and sound system would be perfectly
0:27:15tuned for that movie. You know, that would be a great, that would be actually pretty nice.
0:27:19**Matt Stauffer** It's their product. Right. Right. I mean, it's got, there are a lot of knock-on
0:27:23effects and it's, it's a complicated thing, but yeah, this is, this is the kind of strange world
0:27:28that we're living in now. Yeah. The idea that the theatrical window, the exclusive theatrical
0:27:31window is less than three weeks is a pretty big thing. Right. But that's where we're headed. And
0:27:37honestly, you know, that's sort of also where we were going because people go mostly go to see
0:27:44movies now because they want to see something big and popular that is just in theaters and they want
0:27:49to do it right when it comes out. And then they move on to the next thing for years. And it's
0:27:53closed now, but because the pandemic, and I think it's never going to reopen, we have this one screen
0:27:58movie theater near our house. And what I, what fascinated me about it was the choices they made
0:28:04about what movies they got in there. And I thought it was really emblematic of the fact
0:28:07that you could have a single screen for a movie theater and almost always have a blockbuster.
0:28:14You could almost always do it because there's always another big movie that people want to see.
0:28:18And if it's not that big, it's there for a week and then it's gone. And then there's another one
0:28:22in there. And that, that's sort of like, that's the future of all movie theaters. Cause all the
0:28:25smaller movies are going off onto streaming and people aren't going to see them in theaters. And
0:28:30we can talk about how tragic that is and all those things, but it's just sort of a reality
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0:30:31support of this show and Relay FM. Summer fun time. Summer fun. What's fun this week? The fact
0:30:37that we get to talk about the iMac again. So Jason, you have reviewed the 2020 iMac.
0:30:44I only really want to know myself one thing, which is the nano texture because you got one of the
0:30:52nano texture iMacs. That is the thing I am most interested about. How does that look? How does
0:30:59that work? And then we can talk a little bit more in detail, but that's the thing I care the most
0:31:03about myself. I think it's the most interesting thing about the product. Okay. So for 500,
0:31:08you can get your iMac where the glass is etched in the same way that the Pro Display XDR had an
0:31:13option for a, has an option for a thousand dollar etched nano texture display. And it's these micro
0:31:20etchings and what they're doing is they're reducing glare. So for $500, you can get that on a 5k iMac
0:31:28now. And it's really, really, really good. And I'm starting to feel like, so writing this review,
0:31:37I was thinking like, who buys this with the era coming to an end, this may be the last,
0:31:42at least major update of an Intel Mac ever. Who buys this? And yes, I think one group, I know,
0:31:49I know multiple people who have bought one because they feel like they keep an iMac for five or six
0:31:54years and they're going to get this one and it's going to be a big upgrade over the one they got
0:31:57five or six years ago. And then they can wait and their first Apple Silicon Mac, you know,
0:32:01all the bugs will have been shaken out. Everybody will know they don't need to be on the cutting
0:32:05edge. I think that is a strong point that at this point, you know, you could get this and you're
0:32:11going to, you're not on the cutting edge. And most of our listeners aren't going to feel that way,
0:32:14but like, it's going to be tried and true and very good at what it does. And it's got a bunch
0:32:18of extra features that we can talk about. But the other audience for this is people who want
0:32:25a real anti-glare iMac, and they're going to be able to get it on this thing for $500 over the
0:32:32iMac cost. And when you look at the Pro Display XDR, which costs a fortune, like this is a better
0:32:36option. You get the very good unchanged, but very good wide color gamut Apple 5K iMac display.
0:32:44And now for $500 extra, you get the nano texture, which comes with a little cloth that you're
0:32:49supposed to use to clean it a little, and you can buy extras at the Apple store for $10 if you want
0:32:53more little, little cloths, but it looks great. It is, it actually does a thing with my brain
0:33:00that I look at it, especially at the bezels. I'll look over there and I'll be like that.
0:33:05That can't like it, it seems wrong because it's this black glass on the bezels and there should
0:33:14be a reflection there and there's nothing there. And it just seems like it's wrong and it looks
0:33:20really good. It doesn't feel all textury, like so many anti-glare like screen skins and screen
0:33:28covers do where you end up with this thing that looks slightly foggy. You know, I've had displays
0:33:33like that before that were anti-glare displays and they just, they're not, the blacks aren't
0:33:39crisp or anything like that. It's not like that. Everything looks really good and the glare is
0:33:46incredibly diffuse. I tried to take a picture of it. It's very hard to take a picture of it and
0:33:50make it clear. Cause I was, I took a picture with my iPhone camera and my iPhone camera automatically
0:33:56adjusted the brightness up. And so my picture, you could very clearly see the lamp in the background
0:34:02that was shining on it. But when I looked at the display, I could not see even a glow, a barest
0:34:09hint of a glow. So I had to like step down the exposure on my camera to get something that
0:34:14approximated what my eye was seeing. It's very good is what I'm saying. And if you're somebody
0:34:18who has glare issues in your office environment, I think people are going to buy that for that
0:34:25feature. And it's really, really nice. You mentioned when you started talking about this,
0:34:30it was like the idea of somebody buying this machine cause they're had it for five years.
0:34:35I actually think that's a really interesting point where if that's what you want to do,
0:34:39it might be best to buy this machine instead of the next one. Because you could be coming in at
0:34:45a time, which might be a little tumultuous for a while. We don't know yet what the Apple Silicon
0:34:50transition is going to be like. We don't know how many apps we're going to lose, right. Or like,
0:34:55or how many apps are going to run poorly, right? Like this is stuff that we feel confident about.
0:35:00We don't know if they're quirks, you know, where there's like, Oh, it turns out this thing,
0:35:04Apple didn't really get it right. And we've got to wait around and there's some bugs and then it's
0:35:07going to take six months or, or it turns out this feature just didn't work right. Or, I mean,
0:35:11there's always are things like that that can happen, especially with an initial version of
0:35:15a product. Like I think back to those initial Intel, Intel max. And although that transition
0:35:19was pretty seamless also the first round of like core solo and core duo IMAX were, were not very
0:35:28good. And the core two duos that followed them were good. And that was sort of the upward.
0:35:34So, so you look at first generation like, yeah, they're okay. But then there were way better
0:35:38max to come. So that's the other argument there is not only like, is it buggy, but also like
0:35:42first tentative steps versus buying a Mac that is Apple in stride, having figured out every issue
0:35:49regarding Apple Silicon max, like there are, there are counter arguments. And if you're somebody who
0:35:52doesn't care about the cutting edge features, but what if the next iMac has Apple pencil support and
0:35:58all of this stuff like, but if you're like, no, I just want another iMac to be in my face while I'm
0:36:02writing for the next five years, like a couple of my friends, like, yeah, this is, this is going to
0:36:08do you way better than that iMac you bought five or six years ago when the, when the first maybe
0:36:125k iMac came out, this is a huge update for that. It's faster. It's faster than my poor little eight
0:36:19core Mac pro iMac pro, right? Like my eight core iMac pro, which was discontinued last week, because
0:36:24why even sell that? And it's, it's way faster than that at everything, at least the high end
0:36:31configuration is. So, you know, I don't know, like there are lots of arguments to be made. And I know
0:36:38that most of the people listening to this podcast are not these people because people who listen to
0:36:44this podcast presumably are really into what's on the cutting edge. But I know that there are some
0:36:48people who even who listen to this podcast, who are interested in the cutting edge stuff,
0:36:52but when it comes to their buying decisions or their computer use decisions, they're a little
0:36:57more conservative and they're like, you know what, maybe I'll get this really good iMac that's built
0:37:03on all of this technology Apple's been testing for the last five years. And I'll keep that while you
0:37:10all have fun storming the castle with this Apple Silicon stuff. I'm just going to do my job for the
0:37:15next four years or five years or whatever. So I think that is a strong argument, but there will
0:37:21be this other element of it, which is like somebody who really, really, really, really wants that
0:37:24nanotexture display. And I won't blame them because I think it's really good. And if you want an
0:37:29anti-glare display on an Apple device, I think you're not going to get a much better deal than
0:37:35the $500 nanotexture option on the iMac. - Would you be concerned about taking care of it properly?
0:37:42- I don't think I am. So I talked to Apple about this. I actually, I'm not sure what I'm supposed
0:37:50to admit to seeing, but I talked to our friends who we've talked to on the show before about the
0:37:57iMac. I'm just not going to name any names, but my understanding, I asked about the nanotexture
0:38:03display and I asked about the care of it. So they have this cloth. You're supposed to use the cloth.
0:38:08You can get more cloths. You can get them online or you can get them at your Apple store. They
0:38:13really want you to use this cloth and not another method. It sounds like you can also use maybe
0:38:19water, just plain water if you need to with this cloth. It doesn't sound like this is the kind of
0:38:26thing where if you use some Windex on it, it's going to melt. It's not going to have an iMac
0:38:30anymore. My understanding though, is that if you use chemicals on the screen, their concern is that
0:38:36what it's going to do is it's going to wear down the glass and you're going to lose the magic of
0:38:42the etching that is going into the nanotexture. So I walked away thinking it doesn't feel like
0:38:49it's fragile. You just need to be aware that if you want this thing to hold up and be this magical
0:38:56non-glare display, you need to follow the care instructions, which is not, I think it's not
0:39:01unreasonable. I have a larger point, which you may have thought of, Myke, which is, okay, Apple's
0:39:07really into this nanotexture thing. That's great. What does this mean about our conjecture that
0:39:12maybe Apple will do Apple pencil or touch screen or both Macs in the future? Because I'm not
0:39:19clear on how resilient nanotexture is to somebody sticking their, you know, their oily fingers all
0:39:28over it all the time. That I'm not entirely clear on. And I wonder, is this a last hurrah where
0:39:35they're like, well, let's get nanotexture into the iMac now, cause we're not going to be able to do
0:39:39it on those touch screen iMacs. That would have been a bold and wrong choice to make, I think,
0:39:43if that, you know, like if the, if new iMac models cannot have this, that would have been very weird
0:39:51to put it on there in my opinion. We'll see. Or is it that the geniuses at Apple are all like,
0:39:57ah, we got it. We got it. We got a touch screen nanotexture in the lab. It'll be fine. I don't
0:40:01know. I think we have one of two options here. I mean, one, I do believe that at some point in
0:40:07the future, there will be a combination where you can have nanotexture and touch on the same panel.
0:40:12I don't know how they'll do it, but I believe they will do it at some point. Right? Like,
0:40:16I understand that people will say that like, this doesn't work. I would expect that they will find
0:40:22a way to do it because people are clever and they find ways to do it. Like nanotexture even
0:40:29existing is something that we thought wouldn't have been able to exist a few years ago. Right?
0:40:33Like the, what they've been able to do here with glass etching. So I'm sure there will be a way
0:40:38to do it at some point in the future. We just don't know what that is yet. The other thing I
0:40:42would expect is if they do want to offer nanotexture and they do want to offer touch screens, you have
0:40:46to choose. Could be, could be, um, there could be a division on what Macs get touch screens and what
0:40:55Macs get a nanotexture, or it could be a choice. Like I could totally see them saying, you know,
0:41:01our new 30 inch iMac with Apple Silicon is here and you can, you know, by default it comes with
0:41:08touch screen and Apple pencil support, but do they say, or nanotexture traditional? I don't know. Or,
0:41:16or, or do they, it depends on what their approach, assuming they do touch at all. It depends on what
0:41:21their approach to touch is. Is it laptop only? Um, I hope not because I would really like that 24
0:41:26inch iMac to be something that could be, you know, pivoted and turned into something kind of like a
0:41:31surface studio or like a G4 iMac where you could grab the screen. As much as I would love to see
0:41:35Apple do that, I don't know. I don't know if they will. I don't know if they can see it. Yeah. And,
0:41:41and so that's a possibility too. So I think it's all there. I do think you're right though, that
0:41:45if there's any way physically for Apple to bring etched glass that reduces glare into every single
0:41:54product they make, they will. And if, if, and that means the iPad and the iPhone, which means they
0:42:01may have to figure out how to solve the problem of how do you do this, but also have oily fingers on
0:42:08the screen. And if there's any possible way for them to do it, they'll do it right. Because that's
0:42:13a way for them to push their glass on their devices forward and make a better experience
0:42:19for everybody, at least as an option. So it's worth watching and you know, you would need to be
0:42:26an expert at nano texture, glass etching, and how oils deposit on a screen and all of that. And
0:42:34we're not that. So I look forward to hearing what the experts say or seeing what they do about that.
0:42:39But you know, it's in the meantime, this thing is real. Like it's really nice. And I would buy one.
0:42:46If I had a glare problem, I would buy one unreservedly because it looks really good.
0:42:50I've got it positioned opposite my existing iMac, which means it is facing toward the window in my
0:42:58office. And I've been editing video. I've actually been editing my 20 Max for 2020 videos on it
0:43:04this past week because it's way faster than my iMac. And until I send it back, then my iMac Pro,
0:43:10until I send it back, I kind of want to use that power and it lets me use the nano texture display
0:43:15and the glare is just not an issue. It's just not. It's amazing. So like I'm a real nano texture
0:43:21believer. I think it is the banner product or feature of this. It is also the only feature of
0:43:27the iMac that hasn't been seen on another Mac before. It was on the Pro display XDR, but like
0:43:34everything else in the iMac is I had somebody on Twitter who was trying to tell me like, oh,
0:43:39you know, this is a, it's something positive about the iMac having, you know, having picked up all
0:43:43this stuff. And my, my, my thought was, I don't want to give it too much credit. This is a little
0:43:47bit like that argument about do you give Apple credit for finally doing something it should have
0:43:50done five years before it's a little like that because it's like, do we credit the iMac for
0:43:55adding the T2 processor that was in the 2007 iMac Pro or 2017 iMac Pro? Like do we give it credit
0:44:03for that or 20, 2017, 2016? I can look, let me look. I'm going to just look. Hmm. 2017, December,
0:44:122017. All right. Do we give it credit for being the T2 Mac when we already had one almost three
0:44:18years ago in an iMac? Like I don't and the T2 is great and the T2 adds a bunch of stuff,
0:44:24but it's not new to the Mac. The new three, three microphone system that with, you know,
0:44:31quote unquote studio quality audio is the MacBook Pro 16 system. It's not new. It's new to the iMac,
0:44:39but it's not new. Like what's nice about this computer is that it integrates finally to the iMac
0:44:44the 27 inch model, not the 21.5 inch model that was completely untouched. It integrates this new
0:44:50stuff. That's great. And that's why I think people who are looking for a new iMac and don't want to
0:44:54be on the cutting edge of all this Apple Silicon business can get this thing and they're going to
0:44:59get arguably the state of the art, the final state of the art Intel iMac before the switch, right?
0:45:05Like the final state of the art Intel Mac with all of this tech that Apple's been working on the last
0:45:10few years packed into it. But in terms of like newness to the Mac, other than the nanotexture
0:45:18thing, there's kind of nothing here, right? Like this is all stuff that we've seen somewhere else
0:45:22and they're just kind of rolling it into the iMac. It's great that they're doing it. I wish they had
0:45:25done it a couple of years ago, but it's great that they finally did it here at the end so that the
0:45:2927 inch iMac has that T2 and all of that. By the way, as a note, because people have been asking me
0:45:34about it, I'm running my benchmark tests. So I'm running these tests that really stress out the CPU
0:45:39and the GPU. And I'll tell you the one thing that they, they apparently they tweaked it a little bit
0:45:44because the power draw on the new chips is different than on the old chips. But like,
0:45:49basically the cooling system in the iMac is the cooling system in the iMac, not the cooling system
0:45:55in the iMac Pro. And that was readily apparent when I ran my benchmark tests and my little iMac
0:46:02Pro just silently with a very, like a stream of warm air silently blowing out the back of it,
0:46:08just kept on chugging away. And the moment I pressed the button, all the fans on the iMac
0:46:14cranked up audibly and stayed up for the entire time that it was working on it. So if you're,
0:46:20if you're, if you're sound sensitive and not a lot of people are that sound sensitive, but I know like
0:46:25talking to Steven Hackett about, you know, he, he went, now he has a Mac Pro, but he went from an
0:46:30iMac to an iMac Pro. And one of the reasons was he records podcasts and a loud blowing fan is not
0:46:37great for that. So, um, it's still that loud blowing fan. So it's fast, but it's also noisy.
0:46:43I will say like, so, uh, I'm recording from my home office today, but I've been recording a lot
0:46:49from my studio recently and I'm using my Mac mini there. Oh boy, did those fans go. Uh-huh. And I
0:46:56hear it like randomly a lot and I'm reminded that's what computers used to be like and are like,
0:47:06but I am blessed with this professional Macintosh in front of me here that doesn't, you know,
0:47:11the only time I ever hear the fans on my iMac Pro is when I absolutely expect to, right? Like
0:47:20when I'm doing something like, um, forecast, which is Marco's, uh, tool for encoding, right? MP3s.
0:47:27And aggressively multi-threaded. It is what it is doing at that time is the,
0:47:32basically the maximum it can possibly do. That's what the app is meant to do for,
0:47:36for encoding MP3s really quickly. So I hear it for a couple of seconds then,
0:47:41but other than now, I never hear the fans on my iMac Pro, but on my Mac mini, I could just be like
0:47:47in Safari and all of a sudden it's like screaming at me. I'm like, what are you doing? What's wrong
0:47:52with you? You know, I go to activity monitor and everything seems fine, but something's kicking off
0:47:57the fans because that's just what happens. And so, yeah, that's, that's going to be a thing here too,
0:48:01right? With that 27 inch iMac is it's going to be really good, but it will kick up the fans and make
0:48:08noise more if that's the thing that bothers you because either A, your work requires silence or B,
0:48:14you just don't like it, then fine. You know, that that's going to be a problem for you,
0:48:20which is a difference with the Mac Pro. But I would wonder anyway, if like, you know, in our
0:48:27Apple Silicon future, it might not be so much of a problem anyway, because I mean, we have really
0:48:33powerful ARM chips with no fans now. Yeah. You know, maybe that runs better. So I would say,
0:48:38you know, you've mentioned, as you mentioned it in your article about Last Hurrah, this really does
0:48:43feel like a Last Hurrah because of the fact that they integrated so many technologies that are in
0:48:49the Mac line into this Mac, right? Like, you know, they, all the T2 stuff, right? Like the web, they
0:48:56upgraded the webcam. It's essentially the iMac Pro webcam, right? It's a 1080 webcam and the digital
0:49:01signal processing is being done on the T2 so they can do, you know, more dynamic alteration of the,
0:49:07of the brightness and the contrast. And they do some face detection to try to figure out who is
0:49:11supposed to be at the, you know, the best lighting and then focus on that and light for that. Like
0:49:17that's in there. Like great. Like finally the iMac Pro or the iMac webcam is better, but like, again,
0:49:23nothing new, but it is the, I want to, I want to not praise it for being last to the party,
0:49:30but I do want to praise it as a product for having everything that Apple has been working for
0:49:37over the last few years to make the Mac better while still having an Intel processor in it.
0:49:42Any final thoughts on this? Or do you feel like you've kind of wrapped up the iMac?
0:49:46I think so. I mean, again, like I said at the beginning, you know who you are if you're
0:49:52thinking of buying one. And like I can say it's good. It is, while it's not super exciting, it is
0:50:00the final form of the Intel iMac and it will serve you well if you need an iMac right now and you're
0:50:10not worried about what comes next because you just want a good iMac. It's gonna, it's gonna serve you
0:50:14well. The fact that it goes all the way up to a 10 core i9, that it blows my iMac Pro out of the
0:50:20water, like it's got power to spare. So, and the only other thing I would say is don't buy the 21
0:50:27and a half inch iMac in any form. They changed the base configuration to have SSDs, but otherwise
0:50:34it's unchanged. And I'll remind you last year when they updated it, they didn't give it the eighth,
0:50:38the ninth generation Intel processors. They gave it the eighth generation Intel processors.
0:50:43So it was already kind of a step behind and now it's another step behind. And if we look into the
0:50:49tea leaves a little bit and we think about that Ming-Chi Kuo report about what's coming for the
0:50:55Apple Silicon Macs late this year or early next year, it sounds like a 24 inch iMac is in the
0:51:01works, which feels very much to me like Apple is not bothering to do any updates to the 21 and a
0:51:06half inch iMac because the small iMac is going to be where they start the remake of the iMac.
0:51:13And so I know it's, I know it's the cheap iMac. Don't get it. Like that's, that's one where I
0:51:20can just say stop, do not get the small iMac. But if you want a 27 inch iMac and you're not worried
0:51:26about that cutting edge and you're happy to avoid the cutting edge, you will get all of the tech
0:51:32that Apple has sort of perfected over the last three or four years rolled into this iMac at last
0:51:37and it's fast and it's Intel. You can bootcamp it. You can do all those things that you won't be able
0:51:42to do on Apple Silicon and nanotexture. It's, I want to say it's shiny, but it's not. It's the
0:51:49opposite of shiny. New and dull, but in a good way. The best kind of dull. With this also came,
0:51:58the macOS Big Sur public beta. I think it was the same day that both the reviews of your,
0:52:05of the iMac and the public beta came out, right? And you had an article kind of wrapping up a lot
0:52:11of some of your thoughts on Big Sur. Why do you think it's taken this long for the Big Sur public
0:52:18beta to come out? I don't know. I think my, I don't know. I don't know. I can speculate and say that
0:52:26maybe they just weren't happy with the qualities of the betas that they had or, and they wanted
0:52:31to get it to be stable. Like I know they were tweaking like APFS so that they could get it so
0:52:36that if you installed it on a drive with another, it wouldn't get inserted in Catalina and say,
0:52:42I don't know what this is, right? Like stuff like that, which they fixed and like there have been
0:52:46tweaks to it. I think maybe there's a standard there of what is supposed to go out to the public
0:52:52that they felt they hadn't reached yet. So that's my best guess is that they just, they really didn't
0:53:00think it was good enough. And the nice thing about Big Sur is it's not tied to a release like iOS is,
0:53:09which is so tied to the iPhone. And as we've seen in the past, Apple seems to have no problem
0:53:15releasing amazing new features for iPhone and iPad and saying, and the Mac will get these features
0:53:20too with the new Mac OS whenever it shows up and then letting it just kind of show up whenever it
0:53:26needs to. So if, if iOS and iPad OS are coming in September, would it be surprising if Big Sur came
0:53:32in October or November? I don't think so. The only reason, the only reason to press forward with Big
0:53:41Sur for Apple is if Apple Silicon Macs are tied to it. But even then, do they have to, do they have
0:53:48to, yeah, I assume they are. Do they have to release Big Sur and Apple Silicon Macs in October?
0:53:57They don't, they could do it in November or December or whatever. And maybe that is one of
0:54:00the reasons Apple is hedging about, you know, it's like by the end of the year for Apple Silicon is,
0:54:06is it's tied to Big Sur. I don't know. I don't know why Big Sur is late, but Apple can afford for it
0:54:14to be late. Yeah. We spent a lot of time on this show, uh, breaking down certain parts of Big Sur,
0:54:20like the icons and the sounds. Um, do you have, having spent more time of it, do you have like
0:54:27big thoughts about like things that you like, things that you don't like, like where are you
0:54:31kind of sitting with Big Sur right now? Um, I like it more than most podcasts hosts you may have heard
0:54:41about. I, you know, it's, it's early yet. I'm inclined to say that I, that I, it makes me
0:54:49enthusiastic about the future of the Mac. I likened it in my review to like Good Cop, Bad Cop,
0:54:58like Catalina was the bad cop Catalina was like, no, no compatibility with old apps. No, get out.
0:55:04No, lots of security warnings. Get your security in line people. And Big Sur is like, Hey everybody,
0:55:11new OS shiny and bright and new icons. And, and you know, and it's still all the things
0:55:18that Catalina is incompatible with. It's incompatible with, but like that's in the
0:55:22review by a year. And I've talked to people who are like, Oh, you know, maybe I'll go to Big Sur,
0:55:27but I didn't like Catalina. It's like, well, Big Sur has all the issues in a way that Catalina had
0:55:31in that it's going to make all your old stuff incompatible. If it's a 32 bit app that hasn't
0:55:35been updated to 64 bit, but you know, by putting the, and I'm, I'm not really a believer that Apple
0:55:42structured it this way. So people would just hate Catalina and then bless, uh, Apple Silicon and Big
0:55:48Sur. Um, but that is sort of the net effect about stuff like this, where I do believe that Apple,
0:55:54um, make decisions in advance in that way. Uh, I, I think Apple wanted the transition to go smoothly
0:56:03and that's why they did it with Catalina and not because they wanted people to, uh, it's, it's,
0:56:11you could see it either way, right? Do a transition to go smoothly also means not going into a
0:56:17transition with a whole bunch of broken apps. So breaking them a year before helps the transition
0:56:22go smoothly and also helps people not hate on your new Apple Silicon max because they're the
0:56:27thing that broke the software because instead it's big, bad Catalina that broke it last year.
0:56:31And, you know, I think yes, to a certain extent, those are both probably true. So fair enough,
0:56:37fair enough. Um, but you know, the, the look of it, like it takes some getting used to,
0:56:42it's got some things that needs to tweak, but, uh, like taking up more space.
0:56:47Once I looked at big Sur, I started to think about how so many design decisions on Mac OS are based
0:56:54on a real lack of screen space, like wanting to be super dense and that you look at big Sur and
0:57:03it's like, it's just, there's white space everywhere. There's padding everywhere.
0:57:07And yes, a lot of us think that that means touch is coming, but I think also it is Apple saying,
0:57:16yeah, big screens are good. We like big screens. We're not going to make teeny tiny screen max
0:57:20anymore. Ever again, you know, maybe they'll have a 12 inch screen someday, but otherwise like,
0:57:26no, like that the 13 inch might be the base. Like let's take some space to air this whole thing out.
0:57:33They are willing to do that. I kind of like the, the high contrast windows. I, again,
0:57:38are there some specific issues there? Yes. But, um, I think all of our gray shaded
0:57:45stuff in current Mac OS is going to feel, uh, real old, like brushed metal, kind of old,
0:57:52really fast because not only is it a kind of a design trend kind of thing, but it's just,
0:57:58I think it's nice. I think it looks good. I think there are lots of things they need to fix.
0:58:01Um, I don't, we, we went over the icons and how I think that they're not trying with some of those
0:58:06icons, but the fact is every icon on the Mac is going to be around direct and all the apps that
0:58:11don't support the round direct icon are going to feel old. So they're going to have to update all
0:58:15of those too. And, uh, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's radical and they're going to walk some of it back
0:58:19and there are things about it that I don't like. I think the translucency in the menu bar is a mistake
0:58:24and it makes it very hard to read and it's bad. But, um, overall I'm actually kind of encouraged
0:58:30about big Sur. And again, I'm probably one of the people who is also reacting to it versus Catalina
0:58:37and saying, you know, Catalina brought the bad news and big Sur is sort of like trying to be
0:58:42about the future and what the Mac is going to be going forward. And I'm much more receptive to that
0:58:47message than the message that Catalina brought, which is I'm going to enforce a lot of security
0:58:52and incompatibility issues because we need to change the platform. That was not fun.
0:58:56I like one thing that you said, which is I'm open to the possibility that Apple just thinks
0:59:01that our displays are big enough now that they can afford to look a little less cramped. And this is
0:59:06in reference to, you know, lots of people have been saying that a lot of the spacing in big Sur
0:59:11might be for touch, but it's actually a thing where maybe they just decided that the UI needed
0:59:19to be more spread apart. No, I think it's very, once you look at big Sur and then you go back to
0:59:25Catalina, you look at it and you realize, wow, like there are a lot of places where it's as if
0:59:31this was designed by somebody who's just desperate to shave off pixels. Like let's get this element
0:59:36as close to the edge of the window or the screen as possible. And you know, when you're in an
0:59:44environment with, as somebody who had an 11 inch, I still do, it's right here, 11 inch MacBook Air,
0:59:49that's true. But Apple sort of saying, nah, not so much anymore. We think big screens are where
0:59:57it's at. We're going to give everything a little bit of room and it's nicer. It's nicer. I know
1:00:03that it's waste, quote unquote, wasted space and all, but once you see it, you realize that some
1:00:08of this stuff is like in normal design circumstances, you'd look at it and say, why is
1:00:14that so close to the edge? Like, can we, can we pad that a little bit? Like it shouldn't be that
1:00:18close. It shouldn't be crammed in there like that. It's crammed in there because a lot of Mac design
1:00:24is desperately trying to stick as many things in as small a space as possible in order to fit it
1:00:28on the screen. You mentioned a bunch of improvements to Catalyst as well. How is that feeling in Big
1:00:37Sur? They've introduced new applications, they've added new APIs. You seem pretty positive about
1:00:43Catalyst going forward. Well, I've talked to some developers who say that Catalyst going forward
1:00:49has a lot of things that Catalyst last year didn't have. So that they're really encouraged to be able
1:00:54to use Catalyst and because Apple has brought so many different apps over, including Messages and
1:00:59Maps to Catalyst, Apple is motivated in making Catalyst better. And so last year we were like,
1:01:04well, Mac Catalyst, we were really excited about it, but this is it. And this year it feels like
1:01:09this is really it and Apple is really using it to build apps. And also we now sort of see Apple's
1:01:15grand plan here to unify these platforms. And we're going to enter a situation where your iPad
1:01:22app will run on the Mac on Apple Silicon unmodified, but if you do a little extra work,
1:01:29it'll be much better on the Mac. And I'm encouraged that a lot of app developers will take that extra
1:01:34step, especially now that Catalyst is giving them more tools to do it. A lot of my positivity about
1:01:41it is that Messages is a bad app on Catalina. Like it's bad. I don't know if this has happened to
1:01:48you. Have you had this where you click on a tab in the Messages view when you start to type a
1:01:52message and for some reason it flips to a different message and now you're typing a text message to
1:01:56the wrong person? Happens to me all the time. It's infuriating. It's really bad, right? And that has
1:02:02been happening to me for years and it just keeps happening. It's sort of random. I don't know why.
1:02:08And so now every time I send a message in Messages, I have to double check. I like copy out to the
1:02:15message text just in case. And then I look and see, is this going to the right person? And then
1:02:20I'll send it. And the new version of Messages that's written with Catalyst, it's coming from
1:02:25iOS and it's in Catalyst on Big Sur, feels like Messages. Plus it has every feature that the Mac
1:02:32never got from Messages. You can open pop-open conversations in other windows and stuff. And
1:02:37yeah, if you look very, very closely, you can detect that it's probably a Catalyst app,
1:02:42which it is, but it feels like a Mac app. And I think that that's, I'm really encouraged by that.
1:02:48Plus the fact that they like change the date pickers and stuff. So it's the super saddest
1:02:52things about like the spinning wheel for the date picker that they left there for a couple of years.
1:02:59Like those are gone now and that's good. You mentioned something about Safari that was a
1:03:05surprise to me because I know that Apple were talking about the extensions, like people could
1:03:08bring over their extensions and that would be great. But I just assumed that Apple was doing
1:03:13something to make those work in the backend, but it seems like developers would actually need to
1:03:18submit them for Xcode and stuff, which wasn't what I expected. Yeah. So one of the things that I did
1:03:22is in the review, I expressed some skepticism about this thing that I actually am excited about,
1:03:26which is the fact that they're using the extension API that was there, that's there in Firefox and
1:03:31Chrome to do browser extensions. But of course it's Apple. And so it ends up being this question
1:03:37of like what app extension or browser extension developers are going to want to be in Safari
1:03:44because it's not just a case where I can go to a website where there's a Chrome extension
1:03:49and download it and run it in Safari. It's not that way. They changed some of the security things.
1:03:54So you have to basically, as a developer, you have to bring it, you have to have a Mac.
1:03:59First off, you have to bring it into Xcode. You have to make sure that you're following
1:04:03Apple's security stuff or it won't work. So you may actually have to change your app
1:04:09to be more secure or support privacy better. And then you have to submit it to the app store.
1:04:14And then it shows up in the Safari extensions section of the app store. So you can do it and
1:04:20that's great. And if you're the developer of a major browser extension that you built for Chrome
1:04:26and you want access to Safari, you can get it now. But what if you don't have a Mac? Well,
1:04:32you're going to need to get one. You're going to need to investigate all the ways that Safari
1:04:39clamps down on security and privacy that maybe you didn't need to worry about on Chrome. And then
1:04:45you're going to need to submit it to the app store and learn that process and then get it in the app
1:04:49store. And then it'll be on Safari. So I think it's a real question about whether people will
1:04:53do that. So while it's potentially a big win for Safari users because that web extension
1:05:01technology is coming to Safari, the workflow for it still is going to require a lot of developers.
1:05:08And I think it's worth asking the question, will they care enough to support Safari?
1:05:13They've made it easier, not easy. Yeah. And my answer would probably be the moment that it runs
1:05:18on the iPad and the iPhone, they'll care about it. Yeah. Okay. Good point. Good point. Which may
1:05:23happen, right? Like especially with the iPad, I guess, at least I would, who should install the
1:05:30public beta Jason of big Sur? Should anybody? I don't know. I'm going to, I'm going to go back
1:05:36to what I said about the iMac, which is, you know, who you are like, I would wait it's early in the
1:05:41cycle, even though it's August it's early in the cycle. I don't know what you're going to get out
1:05:45of it. I mean, you could install it in an external drive or something and see, but like, I would
1:05:50wait, I would wait until the they've until they've got it locked down. It's, you know, using a beta,
1:05:57I have to do it, but you don't have to do it. So if you're not a developer or somebody who really
1:06:04needs to be in big Sur, I would wait it out because that's what public beta processes are
1:06:08all about is people finding bugs. And if you want to be a bug hunter and live with the frustration
1:06:12of it, then go ahead. But like as a, your software, some of your software is going to break all the
1:06:18audio software that we use breaks in big Sur right now, and has not been updated yet. Although, um,
1:06:24rogue Amoeba stuff just doesn't work yet. So I don't know it's, uh, right now I'm just sort of
1:06:30skeptical about this. You run a beta because you're curious and that's great or because you
1:06:34want to help or because you have to, but, uh, be well aware that although big Sur seems to work
1:06:41pretty well for me and I didn't really have any problems. You are subjecting yourself to beta
1:06:45software in your operating system and it's not great. And just in general, because there will
1:06:51be bugs and weirdness. And so, you know, I think big service for the people who install big Sur
1:06:57this fall and the public beta, you know who you are. Otherwise I would wait. For me, like I
1:07:03install the iOS public, the iOS developer beta and stuff like that. And I would do that even if I
1:07:09wasn't reporting on them and talking about them because I'm would be excited the same way that I
1:07:14am excited, but I would not install the beta of Mac OS on it on like my main computer. Like I put
1:07:23iOS on my iPhone because I just feel like for me, I feel like there is more potential disruption and
1:07:30damage that could be done to my Mac computing life than could be done with my iOS computing life.
1:07:37Even though I am a primarily iOS person, I just feel like it could be way worse for me to use
1:07:43a beta on my Mac than on my iOS devices. If something went wrong, the things that could go
1:07:49wrong on my Mac feel worse to me, but that's just my own kind of like internal bromance for beta
1:07:56software, especially in software. And it's your feeling about like, yeah, where, where are you
1:08:02willing to get benefit of beta stuff and where are you not willing to get the negative part of beta
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1:09:49for their support of this show and relay FM. So there's been some stories, a lot of reports
1:09:56about Apple and game streaming services over the last week, especially with Microsoft. They
1:10:03confirmed that their xCloud service would not be coming to iOS. xCloud is a game streaming service.
1:10:11So there's games being played from the cloud. It's not like a great game subscription service
1:10:19like Apple Arcade where you pay one fee and you get access to a bunch of games. xCloud is part of
1:10:28Xbox's Game Pass service where it basically works in a couple of different ways, which makes this
1:10:34confusing. But the xCloud part of Game Pass is you can stream games to devices that are not Xboxes.
1:10:40So you play from the cloud. It's more like Google Stadia if you're familiar with that.
1:10:44So Apple have made some statements, Microsoft have made some statements. Apple are basically saying
1:10:52that a service like this can't exist on iOS because they cannot review each title individually.
1:10:58This is a statement that they gave to, I believe, Insider and they also gave a similar statement in
1:11:04March to Bloomberg. I believe this is in reference to Stadia and other things. So they're basically
1:11:10saying that they want to be able to review every game and a service like xCloud means that they
1:11:16can't review every game. That's Apple's line, right? Because there are games and etc. Like
1:11:21it's one app. They want things to be there and they also want all kind of games to show up in
1:11:26search and in charts standalone. They don't like the idea of one application with like a hundred
1:11:34of games in it or whatever and Apple doesn't get to see all of them listed out for their customers.
1:11:39Microsoft are unhappy. They have said Apple stands alone as the only general purpose platform
1:11:44to deny consumers from cloud gaming, game subscription services like Xbox Game Pass.
1:11:49Now there's a lot of people making lots of arguments about this online about different,
1:11:55you know, saying are Apple right or Apple wrong? Is Microsoft right? Is Microsoft wrong?
1:11:59I want to give my take on all of this, Jason, if that's okay. And then I'm sure you will have your
1:12:04own as well. I think that this is all a load of BS from Apple. I think that this is madness from them.
1:12:11This idea of the individual review of content doesn't hold up to any logical test in my mind.
1:12:17People like look, this is an often made thing now, like an often made argument about this about
1:12:23they don't review all of the content on Netflix. But I think that that makes a lot of sense,
1:12:28right? Like I don't understand why because it's a game. Apple needs to one review every title and
1:12:35then two, they need to show up in charts. Doesn't make sense to me why this is the case for game
1:12:40streaming services. And frankly, the games that Xbox sell, the games that are part of Game Pass
1:12:47are reviewed much more stringently than Apple, right? So a quote from Microsoft and this is true.
1:12:53All games available in Xbox Game Pass catalog are rated by content for content by independent
1:12:58industry ratings bodies, such as the ESRB and regional equivalents, right? So console games
1:13:03go through this external review to age rate them, right? This doesn't happen on the App Store. Apple
1:13:12decided. And also, there are way less games allowed and available in the Xbox Store, let
1:13:19alone Game Pass. Game Pass is like a heavily curated system. It's kind of more like Apple
1:13:25Arcade in that regard in that there is a store and then there's also a Game Pass. Most Xbox Game Pass
1:13:30games are games made by Microsoft and their own studios. I think it can be very well argued that
1:13:36the quality barrier for a game on Xbox is vastly higher than what Apple says for the App Store.
1:13:43Because you get a ton of crap in the App Store, right? Just like bad games. There aren't bad,
1:13:50quote unquote, bad games or games that don't work in Game Pass, because that's just not how that
1:13:55works, right? Like that's just not how that system is. It is a very different system. You can get
1:14:00games with bugs, of course. You can get games that crash, of course. But the idea of this like,
1:14:06oh, Apple's review system is like way, but it's just not true. Like in my opinion, and I think
1:14:12I genuinely think this is true, that the level, the quality barrier for what can be approved into
1:14:18the Game Pass is higher than Apple. But let's just call this what it is. Apple wants a cut,
1:14:23right? Like I cannot see this any other way. Apple is saying one thing, but I think it's pretty clear
1:14:31that Apple doesn't want to allow another category of services into the App Store that can be these
1:14:39reader apps, because that's what Microsoft will submit to them, right? They will create an
1:14:44application where you just sign in. They don't want to give Apple a cut, right? So they will
1:14:49create one of these applications that would have to be classed as reader apps in the App Store,
1:14:56right? So Apple won't be able to get their cut of it. I think that recent history makes me feel very
1:15:01confident about this idea that the issue is that Apple wants to take their 30% or their 15%,
1:15:06and Microsoft don't want to give it to them. If that is wrong to assume that, fine. But I think
1:15:12that this year has shown that Apple super care about this. So I feel pretty justified in saying
1:15:19that's what's really going on here. Because if Apple really want to review all the games,
1:15:24Microsoft can let them, right? They can say, "Here you go. It is all 100 games. We've created a demo
1:15:30account for you. Go ahead and review them." So then that's why they also say, "Oh, we also want
1:15:34them to show up individually." But why would Apple care about this? In what way is that a good
1:15:39experience to the customer? That every Xbox Game Pass game would show up individually on the App
1:15:45Store? Who cares about that? That's not how the model for this service works. You pay a flat fee
1:15:49and get everything. So the better customer experience is like, "I am an Xbox Game Pass
1:15:54subscriber. I just want the Xbox Game Pass app or the X-Cloud app." This is another example,
1:16:00in my opinion, of Apple trying to tell Microsoft how to run their business.
1:16:04And I think Apple likes to do this these days, right? And you could say, "Oh, this is Microsoft
1:16:09telling Apple how to run their business." I don't think that's the case because the iOS App Store
1:16:15and iOS devices very clearly are made and sent out to run applications like this one, right? Like,
1:16:22this is a multimedia experience made by a third party. In my opinion, there is absolutely no
1:16:28difference to a streaming TV service to a streaming game service. And my main issue with all of this
1:16:37is that if Apple continues this line, iOS users are missing out on something that Android users
1:16:43can get. Apple is making a worse experience for the App Store and users of the iOS platform if
1:16:49they continue to make these wild rules that they make people sign up for. Because cloud gaming,
1:16:56it's becoming a real thing. The X-Cloud service is awesome, right? Like, it works. Stadia works.
1:17:04Stadia is less awesome because of the game catalog and the pricing. But the pricing and game catalog
1:17:09for X-Cloud, I am telling you, if you are not aware, this is going to be a thing that you will
1:17:15miss out on big time at being an iOS customer. Because you would be able to play high quality,
1:17:23top tier games. We're talking Halo. You would be able to play Halo on your iPad if Apple allowed
1:17:29this, but they won't. And at the moment, Android will be getting this. Samsung just did a deal with
1:17:36Microsoft to include three months of this service for free if you buy one of the new Samsung phones.
1:17:41Like, I really am disappointed that this continues to occur. I think that it is just a bad look for
1:17:51Apple now. And they need to find ways to work better with companies. Like, we have seen that
1:17:57they can work if it's in their interest. They'll do the deal that Amazon wants to do if they also
1:18:02get the right, like, they get that. But they're putting up a wall with Microsoft. They're putting
1:18:06up a wall with Google. And ultimately, no matter what Apple thinks, their customers lose. And I
1:18:14think that's wrong. That is my statement on this, Jason. Would you like to say how you feel?
1:18:20- Thank you for your statement. Thank you. Thank you, the chairman, for yielding the rest of his time.
1:18:26Yeah, I think, look, I see where Apple is coming from here.
1:18:33You know, Microsoft wants to create a new gaming product that uses Apple's hardware as a console,
1:18:40right? Like, they want to say, "Hey, we can now sell all of our console stuff without actually
1:18:46having to sell you a console. And we get the money." And I can see the argument that if you're
1:18:51building your business on Apple's hardware, that they should be able to benefit from it in some
1:18:55ways. And I can see that Apple looks at this and says it makes your iPhone or your iPad a dumb
1:19:00console. Like, it's a whole dumb pipe argument again. And I get why Apple would be like, "Oh, no,
1:19:05that doesn't use the unique Apple secret sauce. You're just piping in content from some other
1:19:11device platform using our amazing software and hardware as a dumb display." And that Apple
1:19:19wouldn't like that, like, culturally. So I get all of that. But I have to come back to the argument
1:19:23that we've talked about before about other issues recently, which is, does Apple recognize that it
1:19:31accrues value from having apps and services on its platforms? Or does it really believe that an iPhone
1:19:37that was completely empty and devoid of anything except Apple apps would still have the same appeal?
1:19:43Now, that's an extreme example. And of course, they wouldn't agree with that. They love the
1:19:46App Store. And they love talking about the App Store. But I think this is one of the things
1:19:50that's missing when you get in an issue like, "Hey," where they said Basecamp has been able to
1:19:56run a whole business for free on our platform. And the strong implication there is that they were
1:19:59ripping off Apple in some way by doing that and not viewing the other part of it, which is, yeah,
1:20:05millions of business users rely on Basecamp and they can use your product. And if they couldn't,
1:20:10then they would use somebody else's product, right? Like, Apple has this real tension between
1:20:15believing that Apple's the reason everybody's there and wanting to promote the App Store
1:20:20and all these great apps that make you want to be there. Because I think, in its heart of hearts,
1:20:24Apple really wants to believe that no individual app is important. That in the end, the greatness
1:20:32of Apple will win out over any individual app or service. That, like, push comes to shove,
1:20:39and this app that you want to use isn't on Apple's platforms, what are you going to do?
1:20:43Get the app's competitor that is or switch to another platform. And Apple, in its heart of
1:20:48hearts, believes you'll stay because Apple's so great. And sometimes you will. But you also might
1:20:55devalue your platform if a major thing isn't there, right? Like, that is the back and forth
1:21:00here. Obviously, Apple can do what it wants. But it does feel like so many of these clashes
1:21:06are rooted in this philosophy where, you know, they simultaneously believe that iOS is a place
1:21:12where third parties can bring apps to enhance the platform, and they have this fear that they're
1:21:17being taken advantage of, or that somebody is making a big profit building a business that
1:21:21doesn't have any direct benefit to them. And there's a tension between these two things,
1:21:26and I think it's the core of all of these kinds of stories. And where you see it at its worst
1:21:34is that Apple builds a whole bunch of tools to protect customers, to make sure that the app
1:21:41store and that the platform is safe and secure in a bunch of different ways. Although, again,
1:21:48sidebar, there are also lots of scammy, crummy things on the app store that they don't protect
1:21:53consumers from. But they do have some of these rules that are, you know, they built this system.
1:21:58The theory is they built the system to protect users and make a better experience. And then they
1:22:03use those tools to collect rent or keep competitors off their platform. I think in the end, you know,
1:22:10it is a philosophical argument, and you and I are on the same side, which is to say,
1:22:16Apple's platforms are better when interesting things like streaming gaming services are on it
1:22:24than they are when they're not on it. And Apple Arcade is its own thing and is not related to
1:22:30this. Like, this is an improvement for the platform. Find a way to work it out and let it
1:22:35be there. Because philosophically, we think Apple should err on the side of letting its platform be
1:22:42open because in the end, Apple sells more iPhones, Apple sells more iPads because Microsoft has
1:22:48created this. Even if they don't benefit at all financially from it, I would also argue,
1:22:54come on, of course they could make a deal and benefit financially from it. Of course they could.
1:23:00Of course they could. And I think it's entirely possible that this is just a lag issue. And at
1:23:05some point, somebody at Apple, an executive somewhere is going to say, "Oh, there's money
1:23:10to be made here. We should just make a deal and we should make this happen." And they're going to
1:23:13take the rules that exist and they're going to, instead of saying, "Well, we have to enforce our
1:23:17rules," they'll actually change the rules. But I can see the other side of it, which is that Apple
1:23:25says, "No, we're not, we don't want, this is not our vision for our platform." To have Microsoft
1:23:30roll in with something that they're taking all the money from and using our platform as a dumb
1:23:35terminal, a dumb display box, and it doesn't accrue a lot of value to our platform. And if
1:23:41somebody's really into it on the iPad, it doesn't provide any reason why they should stay on the
1:23:45iPad and not just buy an Android box next time, an Android device of some kind. So it doesn't really
1:23:51help us. And so if you're not really helping us, why should we help you? Like, I get it.
1:23:55Can I make a point on that?
1:23:56Sure. I don't agree with that, but I can see somebody at Apple saying that. And that is,
1:24:02like, I get that as a philosophy, even if I don't agree with it. I think it's mistaken,
1:24:08but I don't think it's provably wrong as much as it is, that's not how I view their platforms.
1:24:14Because I think that there is a, I believe that there are people that will say this,
1:24:18but I think there's a fundamental issue in that thinking, which is, if you believe that's the case,
1:24:24you allow for it to be proven. Because if you do not allow for these types of services
1:24:31to be on your platform because it makes you just like an Android device,
1:24:34all it's doing is pushing people towards that if that's what they want from their tablet.
1:24:41Right? Like, it pushes people to get a Surface Go next time, because they get whatever they get
1:24:48from there, and they also get to play Game Pass games from X Cloud. Right? Like, if, and I think
1:24:55that it is a fundamental misunderstanding of what Apple's platforms are. Like, fundamental
1:25:03misunderstanding. Because the iPhone and the iPad, for many people, are their main computers.
1:25:11And they just do whatever computers do. Right? Like, Apple love their web browser. Right?
1:25:22The web browser is a dumb terminal to whatever's on the web.
1:25:26They have no control over that, and they shouldn't. And I believe that they should allow
1:25:33for applications like this one. Yeah, sure, it might not be your vision for what iOS can do,
1:25:40but games are important to a lot of people. And if this is one of the future points of gaming,
1:25:47and it is, because they're all doing it. Right? Sony's gonna have it, Microsoft has it,
1:25:52Google has it, and there are many more companies doing a similar thing.
1:25:55You will be leaving your users out in the cold, and to assume that for some reason your tablet is
1:26:01so special that it shouldn't have, like, you know what you should say, Apple? You should say,
1:26:06our screens are the best screens to play these games on. Exactly. And you work with Microsoft
1:26:11to make this HDR or whatever. Like, our device is the best device on there to play games,
1:26:16to play our games, to play their games, to play Netflix, to play our shows. Right? You compete
1:26:22on the fact that you think that your hardware and your larger experience is better, right?
1:26:25Which comes back to what I was saying about, is this all about the greatness of your platform,
1:26:29or is it about the apps, or is it both? And the answer needs to be, it all goes together.
1:26:33But you're right. And this is the thing, is this clash is, like I said, it's rooted in these two
1:26:43views that Apple holds as culturally relevant inside of Apple simultaneously. And one of them
1:26:49is, we love our developers, we love the App Store, the App Store enhances iOS, it makes it what it
1:26:55is. And the other one is, give us our money, you owe us, any business that's built on Apple's
1:27:00greatness, I want money. What I find fascinating about this story in particular is, Apple seems to
1:27:08be hiding behind App Store policies saying, "Well, philosophically, this kind of app shouldn't be on
1:27:14our platform." And as you described, I think very well at the beginning of this segment,
1:27:19come on, it's not about that. In the end, I think it really is about the money. If it's not about
1:27:26the money, I'm baffled because they should allow these kinds of apps on there, and they should find
1:27:31a way to make it worth their while. Like Microsoft, I am sure Microsoft, well, I should say, I'm not
1:27:37sure. Maybe Microsoft is being a jerk here and saying, "No, no, no, Apple, we're not giving you
1:27:41any of our money." But surely there is an agreement to be reached where Apple allows them to sign up
1:27:48on iOS and they take a piece of that, like the other deals that they've got.
1:27:52- They get the Amazon deal.
1:27:54- Surely there's a way for Apple to wet its beak a little bit on this, right? But also let Microsoft
1:28:00run its business in a way that makes sense for Microsoft because it does accrue value to the
1:28:05platform to have these kinds of things on there. And if they're not there, it makes it a little
1:28:11bit less for somebody who's looking for a cheap iPad for their kid and their kid's like, "No,
1:28:16you can't get an iPad because I can't do xCloud on the iPad." Like that, you don't want that.
1:28:21You don't want that. You're not gonna kill your business to get this service, but I don't think
1:28:26this service is gonna kill your business. So yeah, in the end, I think it's gonna take some executive
1:28:32at Apple to break through. When you have an internal culture disparity like this, you have
1:28:40to have somebody in a position of power to say who wins. And right now, there may be somebody in a
1:28:48position of power saying who wins, or it may be that it has not elevated to the point where
1:28:52somebody who's got both of those things in mind and can arbitrate between them. It may be that
1:28:57it's the people who hold the lever are the people who think one thing and the people who think the
1:29:04other thing don't hold that lever. But it might escalate to Tim Cook or whoever who says, "No,
1:29:09no, no, no. We gotta do this differently." And that's what we don't know right now is I'm unclear
1:29:16how far this has escalated and whether Apple has really thought this through. We don't know if
1:29:20there are some details in the negotiations that we don't understand. It would be really sad if
1:29:24this has gone all the way to the top and they've just decided that game streaming services are
1:29:28never gonna be a thing on Apple's platforms, period. Because although I understand why they
1:29:33might make a decision like that, I'm disappointed because I think that they should be more open
1:29:38and less defensive and that they're still going to get value out of it. Plus, yeah, they seem
1:29:44like cool and new. And as somebody who uses Apple's devices, I would like to try cool and new things
1:29:49and not be barred from them because Apple doesn't think I should have them. I feel like I'm doing
1:29:55this a lot recently, but I will again recommend that people listen to or sign up for Dithering,
1:30:00which is Jon Gruber and Ben Thompson's podcast. And I'll actually put a link in the show notes.
1:30:06They made like a preview thing on iTunes, like a preview feed. I'll put that in the show notes as
1:30:13well if you want to get an idea for it. I'll just mention it here because they've been having really
1:30:17interesting discussions. Like I fundamentally disagree of absolutely every point that Jon
1:30:21Gruber is making on this on Dithering. But it is really interesting to hear. I mean, I understand
1:30:28what he's saying. I get his points that he's making. I won't go through them all here, but
1:30:32I disagree with them. But I mention it here because it's really fun, I think, to listen to
1:30:41Jon and Ben arguing the way that they argue on the show. I just think that it's like a really
1:30:48interesting thing to listen to. So I just wanted to mention it here. And they're talking about
1:30:53high-level sort of strategic issues and business issues. And what's a great thing about them as
1:31:00a pairing is that if I had to categorize them, I'd say Gruber is an Apple-focused guy, but he's also a
1:31:07product guy in a way. And Ben is a not... He's got a lot of Apple focus, but it's not just Apple.
1:31:15And he is a business strategy guy. And that's a really good combination.
1:31:21Yeah, they fit so well together. It's why I love the show so much. And I want to recommend it again
1:31:27here, even though I really disagree with everything Jon was saying. I know. I listen to Dithering while
1:31:35I'm running, and it's amazing. For 15 minutes while I'm running, I am hearing those guys
1:31:40sometimes agree and sometimes argue and sometimes joke. And yeah, among your paid podcasts,
1:31:46it's... I listen to every episode the day it comes out. I really love it. It's good.
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1:33:20of this show and Real AFM. #AskUpgradeTime. Jimmy asks, "Is there a preferred order of article,
1:33:29podcast, and video for 20 max for 2020?" This is a fun and flattering question. And what I would say
1:33:37is I could see how you might think so or that you... I also had some people ask like, "Are ones
1:33:44disposable or do they overlap?" And one of the maybe dumber things that I did in this project
1:33:50is all three of them are totally different and the amount of content recycled between them is
1:33:55extremely low. Like, it's all about the same subject every week. But, you know, I wrote the
1:34:02essays and did the research for that and some of the essay content is reflected in the script for
1:34:07the podcast, but most of the podcast is other people talking about it, not me. And the video is
1:34:12me with Stephen Hackett having a conversation about the choice and sometimes he will dispute
1:34:20my reasoning, which is fun, actually. So he's sort of like interrogating me about my choice and we
1:34:24talk about each old Mac that we're talking about. So they're all very different and I don't think
1:34:29that there's any particular order. So consume the ones you like. They're all different. They all
1:34:34have different things to say about the same subject. And if you want to do them in order
1:34:39of time, I would say it is article and then podcast and then video because that's the order
1:34:44in which they were sort of recorded or created. But there's no actual sequence. There's no machete
1:34:51order. There's just whatever makes you feel good, but they're all different. It's not one of those
1:34:56things where the podcast is the audio of, you know, of the video and the video is me reading
1:35:01the essay. They're not like that at all. That's good to know though that they're all different
1:35:07like that's because that means you can consume all of them if you want to.
1:35:11- Yeah. And I tried to make them all like the podcast is I got a bunch of people to talk about
1:35:15these things in a way that is good on a podcast. In the video, I wanted to show the things
1:35:20and I thought, well, I can't just show them. That's kind of boring. And I was like, well, Steven,
1:35:24actually the thought process was Steven has most of these. So why don't Steven and I, since he cares
1:35:28about old Macs too, we'll have a little conversation and also we'll have like his video and photos of
1:35:33the ones that he's got and we'll post it on 512 pixels. And so that is itself a totally different
1:35:39thing. So they're all different. - On a similar line, we'll say no spoilers,
1:35:45but Zach wants to know, Jason, what's your favorite performer?
1:35:48- You mean like, you're English so I have to be clear here.
1:35:54- Performer? How would you, how can I do it any differently?
1:35:57- Performer is how I say it. - Wait, say it again for me and I'll see
1:36:01if I can replicate it. - Do you mean performer or performer?
1:36:04- Can you say the computer name and I'll try and replicate you?
1:36:07- Performer. - Performer. Is that better?
1:36:11- Okay. No, but it's fine. I get what you mean. - I said it exactly like that.
1:36:14- Macintosh performer. Zach, none of them. I don't like them. I don't like the performer.
1:36:23I don't like anything about them. I don't like that you could buy them at Sears.
1:36:29I know that, sorry to everyone who had a performer growing up.
1:36:32- There was a lot of them, wow. - I don't like, yeah, well, there weren't
1:36:36a lot of them. There were a lot of different numbers of the same one because they modeled
1:36:39different software or sold them at a different store. That was from the dark, dark days of Apple.
1:36:43- Who was running Apple during the performer time?
1:36:46- I think that was Scully who actually started that. And then it went over into the Spindler era.
1:36:52But yeah, my answer is none. None. - Jack asks, I've heard you both
1:37:00mention a few times that you listen to podcasts in the shower. I've tried, but I find it hard to
1:37:05understand what people are saying over the sound of running water. - We'll talk louder, Jack. Jack!
1:37:11- What's your setup? - Game pass for Xbox, Jack.
1:37:15- What is your setup? Do you have a speaker inside the shower?
1:37:21- Yeah, I actually got mine recommended to me by Marco Arment. So it's a Marco approved
1:37:28technique. It's a speaker from Soundbot. That's the company. You can just search for it in Amazon.
1:37:35They make a Bluetooth or several different kinds of Bluetooth speakers with suction cups on them.
1:37:42And you stick them in the shower. I only bring mine into the shower for the shower, and then I
1:37:47take it back out. I don't leave it hanging there because I'm deathly afraid it will lose suction
1:37:51and smash on the floor of the shower. Not that it has, but that it could do that. So I actually take
1:37:57it in and out. But I suction it to the glass of my shower. You may have tile, something else,
1:38:02that's fine. And the clever thing about it is the speaker is on the underside. So the speaker
1:38:07blasts downward onto your hard shower surface, and then that flies back in your face. And I put it at
1:38:15kind of ear level, and it's very clear. It's bad for music. I wouldn't recommend it for music.
1:38:21If you listen to music in the shower as well, I would recommend getting one of those nicer
1:38:24kind of Bluetooth, waterproof Bluetooth speakers. Like, my daughter has one of those. And you can
1:38:28like take them into a swimming pool or whatever. Like, it really doesn't matter. But for me,
1:38:34for listening to podcasts, the Soundbot with the suction cup works great.
1:38:37- Do you know which one? I have a few now.
1:38:41- Well, the one that I have is not apparently made anymore.
1:38:45- Okay.
1:38:46- But if you search, because I looked when Jack asked this question, I looked for my model,
1:38:53and my model is not for sale on Amazon right now. But there are others, and I'm sure that they're
1:38:59all the same in being not very good quality, but good enough for podcasts, and they live with you
1:39:05in the shower, which is nice. So, you know, mine is the SB 517, but it's not currently for sale.
1:39:16At Amazon. So I would recommend one of the others, but it has served me well.
1:39:19- So I used to use one of the Soundbot speakers, but ended up not liking it because I had to keep
1:39:27recharging it, and I'd get in the shower and turn it on, and it wasn't charged.
1:39:31- And it beeps every 30 seconds. It makes me so angry when it does that.
1:39:34- There you go. I had enough of that. So you know what I do? I bring my phone into the shower,
1:39:42and I have a little shelf in the shower, which I can put it on. It doesn't get,
1:39:47like, water isn't pouring on it. I mean, it gets wet, but like...
1:39:51- And it bounces the audio off the shelf, right? - Well, no.
1:39:54- Turns your whole shelf into a little speaker. - No, because the shelf is wire.
1:39:57- Oh, okay. Well, that's not as good. - But I find that it is loud enough. You know,
1:40:00I use Overcast. I have Voice Boost. I have my phone cranked up to the maximum,
1:40:04and it is more than loud enough for me to hear clearly.
1:40:06- So I've done that in a hotel shower before, for sure. I've also done that when the Soundbot
1:40:12starts beeping at me that it doesn't have any battery anymore. And, you know, then I'm kind
1:40:16of like reaching outside for the towel and then drying off my hands enough to take the leather
1:40:19case off of my phone. And then I'll bring the phone in, and I'll put it on the little tile,
1:40:24and then it echoes that back out. So that would be another way to go because these phones are
1:40:29water-resistant. I wouldn't put it right under the shower or anything, but getting a little damp is
1:40:33not a big deal. But I just have taken to every week or so, I just recharge the Soundbot and avoid that
1:40:41annoying beeping thing because that's no good. I wish it would beep once every like five minutes
1:40:46or something, but it's every 30 seconds, and it makes the podcast unlistenable. That's a bad day
1:40:53when the beeping is happening in the shower. It's not good.
1:40:55- Matt asks, "Do you think that any non-pro iPads will have USB-C ports instead of lightning
1:41:03in the future?" -
1:41:05What do you think about this? I think eventually.
1:41:08- I think eventually. I think, okay, so if Apple do what is rumored and expected,
1:41:16which is to at some point have no charging port on the iPhone, which I think is a possibility for
1:41:21at some point in the future, I think at that point, all iPads go USB-C, so they don't end up with
1:41:28some iPads being lightning and some being USB-C, because I don't imagine in the near to medium
1:41:35future the iPad going like Qi charging. It's too big, right? So even the small iPads, they're too
1:41:45big for that. It would be weird. It would be difficult to make that work properly. So I would
1:41:50imagine it happening then, but honestly, I could see them doing it at any point now. Honestly,
1:41:59I could just imagine being like, "Oh yeah, iPads charge by USB-C. That's that."
1:42:02- This is like, will any other iPads get the Apple Pencil? And the answer was,
1:42:06eventually, yeah, all of them, right? Or almost all of them. I feel like this is going to be the
1:42:10same thing, which is just eventually as the iPad evolves now, it's going to be slow, right? I'm not
1:42:17convinced that the iPad could get a redesign to look more like the iPad Pro, or it could not,
1:42:23and they could just keep on doing that Tim Cook thing where they keep it exactly the same shape,
1:42:28but just very slowly integrate new features, very slowly. But I think eventually it's inevitable
1:42:35because eventually Apple will want all the iPads to have the same connector.
1:42:39Just could be a long time. - Yeah. And L asks,
1:42:44"If the next iPhone does have flat sides like the iPad, do you think Apple would bring back
1:42:49the bumper case?" I wish. - Why not? I hadn't really thought about it, but why not? That was
1:43:00a great little case, and Steve Jobs said, "Yeah, you can have one." - Begrudgingly gave them away
1:43:07for free. - Yeah. - Yeah. I loved that case. That was a good case. It was basically just a case that
1:43:15went around the outside of the iPhone 4 and had no back on it. Really nice. - Yep. - So you could
1:43:24still, it was still like, you kept the phone feeling thin, you still got to appreciate the
1:43:29glass back. Yeah, I would like that a lot personally. - But we'll see. - People make them,
1:43:37you know, like people make them for every iPhone, you know, but I would like to see one made by
1:43:44Apple again if they went with that flat sides. You know, I was thinking like I am a case person,
1:43:48but if that design of the new iPhone is as that people think it's going to be, or, you know, I
1:43:55would, I feel like I would really hate to have a case on it because, you know, if it's anything
1:44:00like the iPad design, I really love how that feels. It would be a shame, I think, to put a case on that
1:44:06phone. - The beauty of having a bumper case is your, Apple has struggled with the iPhone 11,
1:44:16right? That the, because Jamie's got one of these, the, the, she's got a purple iPhone, it looks great,
1:44:24but she's got the clear case on it. The clear case is fine, but it's, I think, no, I think it's,
1:44:30you're trading the niceness of seeing the color of the phone for the ugliness of having a big
1:44:35case on it, and I think, I think the case is ugly, but the, the purple color is nice. A bumper design,
1:44:43you know, of a case shows you the beauty of the color while still making it grippable, which is
1:44:50one of the reasons you do it. Like, it's not super protective, but it, it, it's protective in the
1:44:55sense that you can hold it in your hand without feeling like it's going to slip out. - It protects
1:44:59the, the, the parts that are the most, uh, damage prone, which are the corners, like the corners
1:45:04hitting. And also it keeps the screen in the back away from the ground. So if it does hit,
1:45:10it doesn't like hit the ground, right? Um, if it's landing on a flat, flat surface, even if it went
1:45:16straight down, because there's like a little lip that it creates. So it would be cool. I would like
1:45:21it. I would like it. I mean, but there is that thing about like, well, if the flat sides are a
1:45:25thing and you are still covering, might feel really nice. We'll see. At the end of the day,
1:45:30like maybe I'll just throw a pop socket on the back and just leave it at that. Right. Like,
1:45:34less of a risk of breaking my phone when I don't go out as much. So we'll see. All right. That is
1:45:41it for this week's episode. If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the
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1:46:37for their support of this show. And we'll be back next time until then. Oh, you can find this in a
1:46:43bunch of places, six colors.com at J Snell. Uh, you can go to relay.fm/shows. If you want more
1:46:49information about this episode, relay.fm/upgrades/310. I am iMyke, I M Y K E. Until then say goodbye,
1:46:56Jason Snell. Goodbye Myke Hurley.