310: The Opposite of Shiny


00:00:00   [Intro music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 310.

00:00:12   And today's show is brought to you by TextExpander from Smile, KiwiCo, and Hover.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell!

00:00:22   Hi, Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:23   I am very well, I am very well. Summer of fun, rolling on.

00:00:27   Summer of fun!

00:00:28   I have a #SnellTalk question from MJ and MJ wants to know,

00:00:32   "Do you use your AirPods for phone calls, Jason? If you do, do you use the left, the right,

00:00:37   AirPod, or both at the same time?"

00:00:39   Um, I, I not only use my AirPods for phone calls, I only do phone calls on AirPods.

00:00:47   Mmm.

00:00:48   I don't want to have my phone against my face, I don't like it. I don't want a speaker phone.

00:00:53   So if somebody's calling me, if I'm like, "Oh, Apple's calling to give you a briefing in a minute."

00:00:57   I will-

00:00:57   Oh, humblebrag.

00:00:58   I will put in- well, it happens, it's my job. I put my AirPods in and I'll actually even, like,

00:01:02   play music or something so I know that they're connected to my iPhone and then I'll wait for

00:01:06   the call because I want to get that call. And if I'm placing an outgoing call, same thing. So,

00:01:10   yes, both also, not left or right. Both, I do both.

00:01:14   I do both when I use it, but I do also, uh, I do speaker phone sometimes. Like, if I'm just

00:01:21   in my office in my studio or whatever, I just put it on speaker phone.

00:01:25   Especially if I'm, like, calling and I have to use the number pad thing, you know, like,

00:01:31   "Press one to-" I just like speaker phone for those. But I do use AirPods too.

00:01:36   Alright.

00:01:36   That's a good question. Thank you, MJ, for sending in your #snowtalk question.

00:01:40   It's very easy to do this if you'd like to send in a question to help us start an episode of Upgrade.

00:01:44   You send out a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk or use the question mark snowtalk command in

00:01:49   the Relay FM members Discord. They get included on a sheet and it may be put in to a future episode.

00:01:54   Snowtalk began as a way to stop us from talking about the weather every week because people don't

00:02:01   want to hear us talk about the weather, but I need to talk about the weather right now, Jason Snow.

00:02:04   Okay, sure. I mean, if it's you wanting to talk about the weather, I guess it's okay. Fine.

00:02:08   It is 92 degrees Fahrenheit right now in London. Very similar temperature inside of my office where

00:02:17   I am right now at home. So, I do have a fan in the background. I've put it on a very minimal setting.

00:02:25   And I'm going to try and take it all out with sound removal, but I just wanted to apologize

00:02:29   to Upgrade and see if they can hear it. But otherwise, I would melt by the end of the episode.

00:02:33   So, it would be no use to anybody because I would just be a puddle under my desk.

00:02:38   I find stories of London being very hot now. It's now very nostalgic to me because, of course,

00:02:43   when we were all in London for your wedding, it was similarly miserably hot. The whole week we

00:02:50   were there was absolutely scorching on my wedding day painfully hot. So now it's like, oh, riding

00:02:58   on the top of a double decker bus packed with people and it was murderously hot. Oh, good times,

00:03:03   good times. I will always have great love for my friends who dressed up in suits on an absolutely

00:03:09   boiling day. James Thompson is in the chat room was in a wall killed with the whole garb. He looked

00:03:16   incredible, but was a very, I'm sure, sweaty person. I was very pleased that the reception

00:03:22   venue had incredible air conditioning. Everything up to that point did not. The chapel wasn't too

00:03:29   hot because it was a big stone building, but like all of the movements in between, very sweaty day.

00:03:34   I was in a three-piece suit that day. It was a hot day. That's true. Dan Morin got married

00:03:39   in Massachusetts in the summer and it was similarly hot. So, it's like, we Americans know

00:03:45   about hot summer weddings, but you're not supposed to, it's not supposed to be like that in London,

00:03:50   but it was. So anyway, good times. You're having wedding weather is what I'm saying. Wedding

00:03:54   weather, Myke. I know, look at me. Literally any person right now who is going to Twitter or to

00:03:58   email to tell me, that's not hot. We get a hundred, like wherever you're writing to me from, I

00:04:05   guarantee that everything around you is built for that heat, right? Like we do not have air

00:04:10   conditioning here, for example. Nobody has it because that's not what our homes were built for.

00:04:16   We don't have it here either. And people will say, oh, it's not so bad. And it's like, yeah,

00:04:21   we don't have air conditioning. I have like a window fan. That's the best. That's my air

00:04:26   conditioning. So it's, by the way, just for the record, 60 degrees and foggy here. So yeah.

00:04:34   We should be much better midweek. We just got a hot few days here. All right. So that's enough

00:04:38   weather talk. Let's do some upstream headlines. I've got a bunch of stuff because we didn't do any

00:04:43   last week because of the iMac, which we're going to be talking about again in a little bit,

00:04:46   but I have some Apple TV Plus related news for you. So there is a trailer for Ted Lasso,

00:04:51   which has come out, which is, uh, that's coming out on August 14th. If you remember,

00:04:56   this is the Jason Sudeikis, um, comedy show of a NFL coach who is hired by a British football team

00:05:07   to become the manager of that team. And what makes this interesting, by the way,

00:05:11   the trailer looks good. I'm actually excited for this. I love Jason Sudeikis and this looks very

00:05:16   funny and it holds up to the promise of the initial character, um, which of, of Ted Lasso,

00:05:24   which was created by, I believe, NBC to promote NBC getting the premier league football.

00:05:31   Yes. I think that's right. In an ad.

00:05:34   And Apple bought the rights to this character from a TV ad to create a show out of, which by the way,

00:05:41   I think is pretty inspired because it's a great character. It's almost like if somebody,

00:05:46   I don't know, bought rights to the old spice guy or something. Right.

00:05:49   Like it sure looks like they made this, like they made it in England and everybody else in it seems

00:05:54   to be an English actor. And then there's Jason Sudeikis.

00:05:57   I know so many places where they're filming this. I'm looking, I'm like, I know where that is. I

00:06:01   know where that is. So yeah, they look like they've treated it well. Uh, and it looks really funny.

00:06:06   And, uh, I'm, I'm actually really excited about this. I think this could be a sleeper hit for,

00:06:10   for Apple TV. The trailer was great. It pushed all my buttons too. Cause it's, it's like,

00:06:14   it's a funny premise. Uh, because I like, uh, I like football, uh, American and British English

00:06:21   football. I like them both. I like, and I know the cliches. Um, I like England and, and, you know,

00:06:29   having watched a lot of British TV and stuff like that. So that's all, all of these contrasts

00:06:33   between the two cultures are, are very funny. I think that there's potential there. And also

00:06:36   it seems to be a, uh, you know, scrappy underdog learns life lessons along the way kind of sports

00:06:46   movie style story too. And I'm kind of a sucker for that too. So, uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

00:06:52   Matt Walter There is a new show on Apple TV+ debuted on July 30th. The Oprah conversation is

00:07:00   an interview series, which is a probably a pretty, a pretty thick, great thing that they could be

00:07:04   doing right now because these can be conducted, uh, when you're apart, which is what they're

00:07:08   doing. Um, the first few episodes, I think there's one out and there's a couple more coming out.

00:07:13   The first few episodes are focusing on racial issues. So the first, um, is with Eran X. Kendi,

00:07:18   who is, uh, who did this episode was called how to be an anti-racist. And then there is a two

00:07:24   part conversation with Emmanuelle Eco, um, along similar lines, um, looking at a lot of racial

00:07:30   injustice issues and stuff like that and how to address them. Um, so that's, it's a timely thing.

00:07:35   And Oprah is a great voice, right? So if you're going to talk about issues like this, so it makes

00:07:41   a lot of sense that they would push this button right now, if you remember, uh, Apple and Oprah

00:07:46   have an overall deal. So yeah, this is the great Apple Oprah relationship, uh, in another,

00:07:52   another tentacle, another, uh, another example of that, that connection that they've got. Yep.

00:07:57   Makes a lot of sense. This is clearly what would have just been a podcast, but now they can make

00:08:01   it into a TV show because this is how TV looks right now. It's like two people in their own homes

00:08:07   and cameras with them. Uh, Apple have signed a new thriller starring Elizabeth Moss of the

00:08:13   Handmaid's Tale, Mad Men. It's called Shining Girls based on the novel by Lauren Buekes about

00:08:19   a time traveling killer. That's right. He kills the shining girls. That's who the shining girls

00:08:26   are. The, the, the targets of the time traveling killer. And this is a, I haven't read this. I

00:08:31   have it on my Kindle. It's apparently a very good book. And, uh, I was surprised to see that, uh,

00:08:35   it's, uh, here it is. It's a going to Apple TV plus, uh, the new detective drama starring Robert

00:08:42   Downey Jr on the way. It's produced by the production company, Team Downey, which is owned

00:08:47   by Robert and Susan Downey. Um, I, Downey, it's Downey by Downey starring Downey. Yeah.

00:08:53   They produced by Downey and Downey. Uh, I just think that it's wild like this, the names that

00:09:02   keep getting added to Apple slate. Right. Iron Man now is here. So yeah, another big one. Sure.

00:09:10   Why not? Everybody, everybody wants that. The question is, and this is the classic question is,

00:09:15   is this a, is this a project that is good or is this one of those quibby kind of projects

00:09:21   that sort of like, eh, we have the wall take, I'll take their money. Right. Kind of thing. But,

00:09:26   um, but still it's, you know, big movie stars doing, doing, uh, streaming TV. That's where

00:09:32   we live now. Jason, can you remind me in the upgrade Ian's what the PAC 12 is?

00:09:37   A PAC 12 is a college conference on the West coast, uh, that features, uh, many different

00:09:43   college sports, uh, organizations and colleges, uh, including, you know, USC and UCLA and Washington

00:09:52   and Oregon, uh, the Oregon ducks. My, my daughter is an Oregon duck. And of course the most important

00:09:56   of all the university of California golden bears, as we all know. So go bears, by the way,

00:10:01   the winner of the U S open in Gulf this weekend, uh, was a cow guy. Go bears roll on you bears.

00:10:06   I'm going to do it, Myke. You can't stop me. You could edit it out though. I don't even know what

00:10:10   it means. It's a roll on your bears. It's a, it's a thing. It's college. Anyway. Um, we talked here

00:10:15   about the possibility of Apple sniffing around a bunch of different life life sports kind of

00:10:19   options and sports deals for the future. And there was a report that said that although Apple is

00:10:24   still interested in, uh, in getting sports rights, they are likely to not bid on PAC 12 rights and,

00:10:31   and their perception here, and this may also be a broader issue is that, you know, or maybe they're

00:10:37   just letting them down easy. I don't know. They're saying that, that, you know, a, a college deal like

00:10:40   this is unlikely to have international appeal that, you know, in Australia, they're not going

00:10:44   to be really excited about seeing, you know, the university of Washington play USC and football.

00:10:49   Um, but, uh, I still think that there's a lot of money to be made in, uh, live sports for streamers,

00:10:58   but it may be that Apple, it depends on what Apple wants strategically. Like Apple,

00:11:02   if it's thinking international, then Apple is going to be bidding on some very different things

00:11:06   than if it's thinking about getting something that's going to have a lot of viewership in the

00:11:09   U S because world sport is different than sports in the U S in terms of priority. There are, there's

00:11:15   some overlap, like there's international appeal for some sports, but college football, especially

00:11:21   is not really one of them. So, uh, we'll see what happens. But anyway, this report is that the Apple,

00:11:27   Apple did talk to the PAC 12 about sports rights, but, uh, is, is kind of moving on and is unlikely

00:11:32   to bid. But, uh, the bigger issue here to watch for upstream purposes is really what are the,

00:11:38   what are the deals being made by streamers? As we mentioned a couple of weeks ago, CBS bought the,

00:11:44   uh, the champions league and they put it on CBS all access, uh, which is an interesting decision.

00:11:52   Another, another interesting note is the FA cup was last weekend, not this just passed,

00:11:57   but the weekend before that, which is a championship of a tournament of English

00:12:01   soccer. We're back to English soccer again, uh, won by arsenal, by the way. Um, boy,

00:12:06   I'm just plugging all my team. Um, one by arsenal beating the hated, uh, evil Chelsea. So

00:12:16   anyway, um, that aired ESPN had the rights to that in the U S and they put it on ESPN plus

00:12:22   they were showing like billiards or something. Cornhole. I don't know what it was. They were

00:12:29   showing nothing on one on ESPN too at that moment, but they chose to keep the FA cup final off of

00:12:38   their linear cable channel and put it on there for pay streaming service. Right. Shows you where the

00:12:43   money is. Doesn't it? Interesting data point, right? Where they're like, well, we could put

00:12:47   this on ESPN too. Yes, we could do that. Or we could force everybody to buy ESPN plus in order

00:12:52   to see it. And this is again, we're going to, this is just the beginning of fans, especially

00:12:58   of various sporting events getting irate because they have to buy a streaming service in order to

00:13:02   see their thing, but it's going to happen just like fans got irate when they move things off

00:13:06   of broadcast in the U S to cable. And everybody got really angry about that. I'm like, I have to

00:13:11   pay to see this. I can't just get this with my antenna. Well, this is the next frontier of that,

00:13:16   which is you're going to have to pay a streaming service subscription in order to get access to

00:13:21   this stuff. It's inevitable. I think that there is a potential upper part to this pack 12 thing,

00:13:29   or just Apple sport in general, maybe they've just realized that 2020 is just a bad time to be

00:13:35   getting sports rights. Like it is maybe a little uncertain. Well, it depends on your

00:13:41   feeling about it. I would imagine that everybody involved in sports imagines that sports will

00:13:47   bounce back and that anybody who can get a deal buying it for a slight discount is probably getting

00:13:54   a deal because it will bounce back. And I think it will. Right. I think that there's no doubt that

00:13:59   sports is going to bounce back, but, um, there will be a rough patch here. It's also possible

00:14:06   that a lot of the owners here looking at their, uh, lack of fans in the stands, lack of ticket

00:14:10   sales are going to want another revenue stream. Right. And they're going to want to sell some

00:14:14   rights right now so they can get some cash in their pocket. Right. But I guess for, for a

00:14:20   company like Apple, it's about the right deal at the right time. Right. Like, you know, you can,

00:14:26   they might want sports, but not PAC 12, you know, like, like we said, for sure. I think that that's

00:14:32   a good example of that. And the PAC 12 stuff wasn't going to come up for another like two

00:14:35   or three years. And I think that's another factor here is that a lot of these sports rights go out

00:14:40   for years and years, and then there's a big moment where the bids happen. And so, um, this is going

00:14:46   to be slow moving as with so many of the rights things we talk about on upstream, it's going to

00:14:51   be slow moving, but there will be mark my words, like there will be that moment and we'll all know

00:14:56   it when we see it, when something comes up for bid that has always been on traditional TV. And one of

00:15:03   the bidders is a streaming service. And even if they don't get it, if like, it's a serious

00:15:08   possibility that they're going to get it. That's going to be that moment where people are like,

00:15:12   Oh, what? Like I thought the NFL was always going to be on my local CBS TV station and now it's on

00:15:18   Amazon. How do I, what? Right. And that's going to happen. It's, it's something like that will happen.

00:15:23   Mark Duplass who played Chip on the morning show has told Deadline that season two is actually

00:15:30   being rewritten to reflect the pandemic. So the funny thing, if you'd call it funny, the

00:15:36   interesting thing, uh, that is to be thought on about this is they rewrote the first season to

00:15:42   include, uh, the me too movement as one of the main, really the main plot point of the show.

00:15:49   And now they're doing it again, uh, to reflect the plan for the pandemic, which is it an interesting

00:15:56   thing to do? I was wondering, Jason, if this may allow them to resume shooting some way for them

00:16:02   to find ways to do this remotely, if that's the route they want to go down, uh, do plus also

00:16:08   confirmed the deadline. They'd only shot two episodes of the show before being closed down.

00:16:15   I had the same thought, which is, I wonder if there's something to be done here about the,

00:16:23   you know, we've seen different TV productions try to grapple with the pandemic and have people

00:16:31   recording from home and reporting from home and all of that. And then you get a skeleton crew back

00:16:34   in a studio, but you've got like, I could see them trying to emulate that and sort of tell that story.

00:16:40   The problem I've got with it is, is anybody going to want to see that in a year? I don't know.

00:16:45   Right. Like, Oh, Hey, Hey everybody, we just got out. Remember the pain. It's like, yeah,

00:16:50   I do remember. There's that thing. I think we talked about it here. Somebody was pointing out

00:16:54   that, um, there is very little art about the, um, the flu pandemic a hundred years ago. There's like

00:17:02   very little in the way of like novels or any art influenced by it. And there is a thought that

00:17:10   everybody lived through it and no one wanted to relive it. And so nobody talked about it

00:17:14   and nobody made art about it. And it just kind of, because nobody wanted to hear that. Like we all,

00:17:20   we all get it. There was a pandemic. We get it. And I wonder about something like this too,

00:17:25   that if you really lean into your pandemic season and the pandemic is maybe waning,

00:17:30   when it comes out, everybody's like, I don't want to, why would I want to relive that?

00:17:35   So there's, there's some risk there too. But, um, then again, if they're really trying to

00:17:40   shoot their season and they don't know how they're going to be able to do it, um, you know,

00:17:45   it's also possible that they'll do it for like a couple episodes and then kind of break out of it,

00:17:50   but I don't know. I, I, it's a tough position to be in, to be wanting to produce your show and

00:17:55   having shut down mid season and feeling like it's timely and feeling like you want to be current.

00:18:02   But, um, I don't know. Disney is releasing Mulan on Disney plus,

00:18:09   but with a catch it's coming out on September 4th, but it will be a $30 purchase for Disney

00:18:15   plus subscribers on top of your subscription. It will act like a purchase. So it stays in your

00:18:21   account. It's not like you're not paying $30 to rent it is my understanding. Um, it seems a little

00:18:26   unclear right now, if they're going to also be selling Mulan, right? Like, will you be able to

00:18:31   pay $35 and buy it on iTunes? For example, I don't see how you will. Um, it doesn't seem

00:18:37   not originally right. Because it's tied to Disney plus you have to be paying them already

00:18:42   for the right to pay them more. Yeah. So I agree with you, but just in the reports that I read it,

00:18:47   they're basically saying we've asked and haven't got confirmation. So, but why would they specify

00:18:52   Disney plus what if they sold it for $40 outside? Right. But nevertheless, right. But I agree with

00:18:57   you. I'm sure it's going to be Disney plus only, but like, for example, they're still putting it

00:19:01   in theaters in places where Disney plus isn't available. So it kind of seems like Disney is

00:19:06   flying by the seat of their pants at this one, which makes sense. Uh, I think that this is

00:19:11   not good for Mulan. Honestly. Uh, I think that $30 is a lot. I will push back on that a little bit

00:19:20   because if you're a family going to see a family Disney movie in a movie theater,

00:19:26   you pay more than $30. No, I understand. So like the idea of putting them iTunes and stuff like

00:19:31   that $30, I think $30 is a lot when you're already paying $6 a month. I've seen some people say that

00:19:36   maybe this is the, this is actually a new way that Disney, uh, justifies keeping their Disney

00:19:42   plus monthly subscription artificially low is by having it be an artificially low gateway into

00:19:49   a buying environment where they then charge you a lot of money for a bunch of extras.

00:19:54   Interesting thought. Yeah. So I can, would I pay it? Yeah, probably. Am I going to get it? I

00:19:59   reckon I am. Um, I, I think it's just like, I did have an initial sticker shock on this one

00:20:05   because I saw, Oh, great. Disney plus Oh, what $30. Right. And I think that surprised me.

00:20:10   And, and you and Adina could go see it in the movie theater and you wouldn't pay $30 probably.

00:20:15   No, but I, I took the last time we went to see a movie. I can't even remember what movie it was,

00:20:21   but I remember all four of us went to see it and it cost, it cost a lot of money. Like I was like,

00:20:29   Oh my God. And I thought I need to remember this moment. Although obviously not the movie.

00:20:34   It's probably a Marvel movie or a star Wars movie. I remember this moment because when they try to

00:20:39   get you to pay for this at home, this is what they're going to ask you to pay is something

00:20:43   like this, because this is what a family of four going to the movies pays, which is, you know,

00:20:49   35, $40, depending on where you live, it's going to vary, but you know, it's in the ballpark.

00:20:55   Yeah. And, uh, I think what's interesting is it's not a rental. So as long as you stay on Disney,

00:21:00   plus you have access to watch it so you can watch it again and again and again, which is good.

00:21:05   A lot of these kids have been rentals. Um, so the idea, so I actually I'm coming around to this a

00:21:11   little bit more like that. If you know, like the fact that you paid at $30 and it's like quote

00:21:15   unquote a purchase for as long as you're a Disney plus subscriber, that's pretty good too. I think,

00:21:19   we have Matt right in with a question, but Matt said, do you think Apple will get their cut

00:21:26   for Disney plus from Mulan when it's on their platforms?

00:21:30   Well, you can, you can rent and buy movies on Amazon now, um, on Apple TV and, uh, is Apple

00:21:38   giving a cut of that? Maybe they are behind the scenes, but they're not using in-app purchase.

00:21:41   Oh, uh, interesting. I think Apple coming from those documents that we were talking about last

00:21:46   time, that would be if, uh, some with Amazon, if somebody has come to it and they were already a

00:21:54   customer, they'd go through Amazon. If they started with Apple, it goes to Apple.

00:21:58   Yeah. So it may be something like that, but I think this fits into that scenario where

00:22:04   on at least on Apple TV, you should be able to buy Mulan in Disney plus app and, you know,

00:22:10   maybe Apple gets cut. Maybe Apple doesn't get a cut. Who cares?

00:22:12   Apple. We'll talk about this later on, but I think at the moment, Apple care about this stuff quite

00:22:20   a lot in fact. So you can sign up like there is in-app purchases and at least on the website,

00:22:27   I can see it. I don't know how obfuscated they are and some apps do that, but you can sign up

00:22:31   for Disney plus, um, in app. So I guess it might be a similar thing. Yeah. No, that, that may be the

00:22:39   scenario there. I would like to know, by the way, if any of our listeners, uh, did sign up through

00:22:45   the app store, uh, I signed up on the web cause I got the discount deal. Right. If you signed up in

00:22:52   the app store and you get Mulan, I would love to know, uh, if you went through the IAP process.

00:22:59   So we'll find out September 4th, but I want to mention, I know that we have a bumper crop of,

00:23:04   of upstream stuff here, but I want to mention one other big story that we haven't didn't even have

00:23:08   on our list, but I want to throw it in with this Mulan thing, because I think they're all related,

00:23:12   which is, um, a federal judge is ending the dis the consent decree against paramount for movie

00:23:18   theaters. And this sounds very dry, but the point here is in the U S for a long time, it has been

00:23:24   illegal for movie studios to create this vertical integration where they also run, uh, movie theaters.

00:23:33   And this has been happening since the late 1940s, there was a Supreme court decision in 1948,

00:23:40   U S versus paramount pictures and the, um, a federal judge in New York granted a motion

00:23:48   by the U S department of justice to terminate that. And what this means is that between the

00:23:56   pandemic and the consent, consent degree going away, the theater business is never going to be

00:24:03   the same because, and I saw some speculation about this and we don't know how this is going to go,

00:24:09   but I saw somebody make a really smart point, which is imagine a chain of Disney theaters,

00:24:16   where they show Disney releases. It's a Disney-fied experience. You pay more,

00:24:23   but it's more magical because it's Disney and Disney can like, it is just, it's full on. It's

00:24:31   like, it's like going into Disneyland or on a Disney cruise or something like that,

00:24:35   except it's the, your local Disney showcase theater in major markets. What does the removal

00:24:42   of the consent decree allow? It means that movie studios can own movie theaters. So that means that

00:24:47   in theory, Disney doesn't have to supply their movies to theaters that they don't want to give

00:24:53   them to. And theater chains would probably say, well, we're not going to take your movies anywhere.

00:24:57   If you open your own movie theaters, I would imagine that what will happen is that Disney

00:25:01   will say, fine, we are opening our own movie theaters and all these major markets. And

00:25:05   if you'd like it in the minor markets, there's an audience there and somebody's going to take it.

00:25:10   And if it's you then fine. But if not, then, you know, then they'll, they'll instead,

00:25:14   they'll rent it on Disney plus. Right. Like, I don't know who knows how this is all going

00:25:22   to play out, but a lot of the decades long, um, control systems in the U S at least have been

00:25:32   removed while streaming now has become more prominent because of the pandemic. And then

00:25:38   let's just throw in also technology is way better. Like the sound and picture on my TV set in my

00:25:44   house is also of a, of a quality now where I wouldn't mind just watching all new releases on

00:25:50   it. I don't feel like I even need to go to a movie theater. It's not true for everybody, but it's

00:25:54   true for some portion of the audience. So like you throw all this together, things are going to get

00:25:59   weird. That's what I'm saying. Things are going to get really weird once, once there are movie

00:26:03   theaters and back in the U S and like over the next decade, how does this all work out? But I

00:26:08   don't think we're going to be going back to what we had before. I think those days are over.

00:26:12   **Bes McElhaney** One last piece on this while we're talking about it, AMC just did that deal

00:26:16   with universal and they're offering it to other studios too, where a movie can come out on

00:26:21   streaming or well for rental 17 days after the theatrical release. Like, um, uh, I know this

00:26:29   might upset people, whatever, but the movie theaters are crumbling now like that.

00:26:33   **Matt Stauffer** Well, and, and that, that actually fits with what movie theaters are for now,

00:26:37   right? Cause movie theaters now are for big blockbusters and they want you to see it in

00:26:41   the theater. And if you think about Disney, you know, Disney, Marvel, Star Wars, Disney is, is

00:26:46   the biggest movie studio out there. **Bes McElhaney** You want to see them in the theater.

00:26:49   You want to. **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. Could they schedule their releases so that there's,

00:26:53   that every Disney theater near you is like, it's a handful of screens, but they're big screens.

00:26:58   And it's always some movie that's come out in the last two weeks or three weeks that everybody

00:27:01   wants to see. And then as soon as that's done two, three weeks after that, it's on Disney plus

00:27:07   as a, as a rental or something like that. **Bes McElhaney** You can imagine as well,

00:27:10   like if Disney owned the theater, then every theater screen and sound system would be perfectly

00:27:15   tuned for that movie. You know, that would be a great, that would be actually pretty nice.

00:27:19   **Matt Stauffer** It's their product. Right. Right. I mean, it's got, there are a lot of knock-on

00:27:23   effects and it's, it's a complicated thing, but yeah, this is, this is the kind of strange world

00:27:28   that we're living in now. Yeah. The idea that the theatrical window, the exclusive theatrical

00:27:31   window is less than three weeks is a pretty big thing. Right. But that's where we're headed. And

00:27:37   honestly, you know, that's sort of also where we were going because people go mostly go to see

00:27:44   movies now because they want to see something big and popular that is just in theaters and they want

00:27:49   to do it right when it comes out. And then they move on to the next thing for years. And it's

00:27:53   closed now, but because the pandemic, and I think it's never going to reopen, we have this one screen

00:27:58   movie theater near our house. And what I, what fascinated me about it was the choices they made

00:28:04   about what movies they got in there. And I thought it was really emblematic of the fact

00:28:07   that you could have a single screen for a movie theater and almost always have a blockbuster.

00:28:14   You could almost always do it because there's always another big movie that people want to see.

00:28:18   And if it's not that big, it's there for a week and then it's gone. And then there's another one

00:28:22   in there. And that, that's sort of like, that's the future of all movie theaters. Cause all the

00:28:25   smaller movies are going off onto streaming and people aren't going to see them in theaters. And

00:28:30   we can talk about how tragic that is and all those things, but it's just sort of a reality

00:28:34   of where we are right now. This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at Hover,

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00:30:31   support of this show and Relay FM. Summer fun time. Summer fun. What's fun this week? The fact

00:30:37   that we get to talk about the iMac again. So Jason, you have reviewed the 2020 iMac.

00:30:44   I only really want to know myself one thing, which is the nano texture because you got one of the

00:30:52   nano texture iMacs. That is the thing I am most interested about. How does that look? How does

00:30:59   that work? And then we can talk a little bit more in detail, but that's the thing I care the most

00:31:03   about myself. I think it's the most interesting thing about the product. Okay. So for 500,

00:31:08   you can get your iMac where the glass is etched in the same way that the Pro Display XDR had an

00:31:13   option for a, has an option for a thousand dollar etched nano texture display. And it's these micro

00:31:20   etchings and what they're doing is they're reducing glare. So for $500, you can get that on a 5k iMac

00:31:28   now. And it's really, really, really good. And I'm starting to feel like, so writing this review,

00:31:37   I was thinking like, who buys this with the era coming to an end, this may be the last,

00:31:42   at least major update of an Intel Mac ever. Who buys this? And yes, I think one group, I know,

00:31:49   I know multiple people who have bought one because they feel like they keep an iMac for five or six

00:31:54   years and they're going to get this one and it's going to be a big upgrade over the one they got

00:31:57   five or six years ago. And then they can wait and their first Apple Silicon Mac, you know,

00:32:01   all the bugs will have been shaken out. Everybody will know they don't need to be on the cutting

00:32:05   edge. I think that is a strong point that at this point, you know, you could get this and you're

00:32:11   going to, you're not on the cutting edge. And most of our listeners aren't going to feel that way,

00:32:14   but like, it's going to be tried and true and very good at what it does. And it's got a bunch

00:32:18   of extra features that we can talk about. But the other audience for this is people who want

00:32:25   a real anti-glare iMac, and they're going to be able to get it on this thing for $500 over the

00:32:32   iMac cost. And when you look at the Pro Display XDR, which costs a fortune, like this is a better

00:32:36   option. You get the very good unchanged, but very good wide color gamut Apple 5K iMac display.

00:32:44   And now for $500 extra, you get the nano texture, which comes with a little cloth that you're

00:32:49   supposed to use to clean it a little, and you can buy extras at the Apple store for $10 if you want

00:32:53   more little, little cloths, but it looks great. It is, it actually does a thing with my brain

00:33:00   that I look at it, especially at the bezels. I'll look over there and I'll be like that.

00:33:05   That can't like it, it seems wrong because it's this black glass on the bezels and there should

00:33:14   be a reflection there and there's nothing there. And it just seems like it's wrong and it looks

00:33:20   really good. It doesn't feel all textury, like so many anti-glare like screen skins and screen

00:33:28   covers do where you end up with this thing that looks slightly foggy. You know, I've had displays

00:33:33   like that before that were anti-glare displays and they just, they're not, the blacks aren't

00:33:39   crisp or anything like that. It's not like that. Everything looks really good and the glare is

00:33:46   incredibly diffuse. I tried to take a picture of it. It's very hard to take a picture of it and

00:33:50   make it clear. Cause I was, I took a picture with my iPhone camera and my iPhone camera automatically

00:33:56   adjusted the brightness up. And so my picture, you could very clearly see the lamp in the background

00:34:02   that was shining on it. But when I looked at the display, I could not see even a glow, a barest

00:34:09   hint of a glow. So I had to like step down the exposure on my camera to get something that

00:34:14   approximated what my eye was seeing. It's very good is what I'm saying. And if you're somebody

00:34:18   who has glare issues in your office environment, I think people are going to buy that for that

00:34:25   feature. And it's really, really nice. You mentioned when you started talking about this,

00:34:30   it was like the idea of somebody buying this machine cause they're had it for five years.

00:34:35   I actually think that's a really interesting point where if that's what you want to do,

00:34:39   it might be best to buy this machine instead of the next one. Because you could be coming in at

00:34:45   a time, which might be a little tumultuous for a while. We don't know yet what the Apple Silicon

00:34:50   transition is going to be like. We don't know how many apps we're going to lose, right. Or like,

00:34:55   or how many apps are going to run poorly, right? Like this is stuff that we feel confident about.

00:35:00   We don't know if they're quirks, you know, where there's like, Oh, it turns out this thing,

00:35:04   Apple didn't really get it right. And we've got to wait around and there's some bugs and then it's

00:35:07   going to take six months or, or it turns out this feature just didn't work right. Or, I mean,

00:35:11   there's always are things like that that can happen, especially with an initial version of

00:35:15   a product. Like I think back to those initial Intel, Intel max. And although that transition

00:35:19   was pretty seamless also the first round of like core solo and core duo IMAX were, were not very

00:35:28   good. And the core two duos that followed them were good. And that was sort of the upward.

00:35:34   So, so you look at first generation like, yeah, they're okay. But then there were way better

00:35:38   max to come. So that's the other argument there is not only like, is it buggy, but also like

00:35:42   first tentative steps versus buying a Mac that is Apple in stride, having figured out every issue

00:35:49   regarding Apple Silicon max, like there are, there are counter arguments. And if you're somebody who

00:35:52   doesn't care about the cutting edge features, but what if the next iMac has Apple pencil support and

00:35:58   all of this stuff like, but if you're like, no, I just want another iMac to be in my face while I'm

00:36:02   writing for the next five years, like a couple of my friends, like, yeah, this is, this is going to

00:36:08   do you way better than that iMac you bought five or six years ago when the, when the first maybe

00:36:12   5k iMac came out, this is a huge update for that. It's faster. It's faster than my poor little eight

00:36:19   core Mac pro iMac pro, right? Like my eight core iMac pro, which was discontinued last week, because

00:36:24   why even sell that? And it's, it's way faster than that at everything, at least the high end

00:36:31   configuration is. So, you know, I don't know, like there are lots of arguments to be made. And I know

00:36:38   that most of the people listening to this podcast are not these people because people who listen to

00:36:44   this podcast presumably are really into what's on the cutting edge. But I know that there are some

00:36:48   people who even who listen to this podcast, who are interested in the cutting edge stuff,

00:36:52   but when it comes to their buying decisions or their computer use decisions, they're a little

00:36:57   more conservative and they're like, you know what, maybe I'll get this really good iMac that's built

00:37:03   on all of this technology Apple's been testing for the last five years. And I'll keep that while you

00:37:10   all have fun storming the castle with this Apple Silicon stuff. I'm just going to do my job for the

00:37:15   next four years or five years or whatever. So I think that is a strong argument, but there will

00:37:21   be this other element of it, which is like somebody who really, really, really, really wants that

00:37:24   nanotexture display. And I won't blame them because I think it's really good. And if you want an

00:37:29   anti-glare display on an Apple device, I think you're not going to get a much better deal than

00:37:35   the $500 nanotexture option on the iMac. - Would you be concerned about taking care of it properly?

00:37:42   - I don't think I am. So I talked to Apple about this. I actually, I'm not sure what I'm supposed

00:37:50   to admit to seeing, but I talked to our friends who we've talked to on the show before about the

00:37:57   iMac. I'm just not going to name any names, but my understanding, I asked about the nanotexture

00:38:03   display and I asked about the care of it. So they have this cloth. You're supposed to use the cloth.

00:38:08   You can get more cloths. You can get them online or you can get them at your Apple store. They

00:38:13   really want you to use this cloth and not another method. It sounds like you can also use maybe

00:38:19   water, just plain water if you need to with this cloth. It doesn't sound like this is the kind of

00:38:26   thing where if you use some Windex on it, it's going to melt. It's not going to have an iMac

00:38:30   anymore. My understanding though, is that if you use chemicals on the screen, their concern is that

00:38:36   what it's going to do is it's going to wear down the glass and you're going to lose the magic of

00:38:42   the etching that is going into the nanotexture. So I walked away thinking it doesn't feel like

00:38:49   it's fragile. You just need to be aware that if you want this thing to hold up and be this magical

00:38:56   non-glare display, you need to follow the care instructions, which is not, I think it's not

00:39:01   unreasonable. I have a larger point, which you may have thought of, Myke, which is, okay, Apple's

00:39:07   really into this nanotexture thing. That's great. What does this mean about our conjecture that

00:39:12   maybe Apple will do Apple pencil or touch screen or both Macs in the future? Because I'm not

00:39:19   clear on how resilient nanotexture is to somebody sticking their, you know, their oily fingers all

00:39:28   over it all the time. That I'm not entirely clear on. And I wonder, is this a last hurrah where

00:39:35   they're like, well, let's get nanotexture into the iMac now, cause we're not going to be able to do

00:39:39   it on those touch screen iMacs. That would have been a bold and wrong choice to make, I think,

00:39:43   if that, you know, like if the, if new iMac models cannot have this, that would have been very weird

00:39:51   to put it on there in my opinion. We'll see. Or is it that the geniuses at Apple are all like,

00:39:57   ah, we got it. We got it. We got a touch screen nanotexture in the lab. It'll be fine. I don't

00:40:01   know. I think we have one of two options here. I mean, one, I do believe that at some point in

00:40:07   the future, there will be a combination where you can have nanotexture and touch on the same panel.

00:40:12   I don't know how they'll do it, but I believe they will do it at some point. Right? Like,

00:40:16   I understand that people will say that like, this doesn't work. I would expect that they will find

00:40:22   a way to do it because people are clever and they find ways to do it. Like nanotexture even

00:40:29   existing is something that we thought wouldn't have been able to exist a few years ago. Right?

00:40:33   Like the, what they've been able to do here with glass etching. So I'm sure there will be a way

00:40:38   to do it at some point in the future. We just don't know what that is yet. The other thing I

00:40:42   would expect is if they do want to offer nanotexture and they do want to offer touch screens, you have

00:40:46   to choose. Could be, could be, um, there could be a division on what Macs get touch screens and what

00:40:55   Macs get a nanotexture, or it could be a choice. Like I could totally see them saying, you know,

00:41:01   our new 30 inch iMac with Apple Silicon is here and you can, you know, by default it comes with

00:41:08   touch screen and Apple pencil support, but do they say, or nanotexture traditional? I don't know. Or,

00:41:16   or, or do they, it depends on what their approach, assuming they do touch at all. It depends on what

00:41:21   their approach to touch is. Is it laptop only? Um, I hope not because I would really like that 24

00:41:26   inch iMac to be something that could be, you know, pivoted and turned into something kind of like a

00:41:31   surface studio or like a G4 iMac where you could grab the screen. As much as I would love to see

00:41:35   Apple do that, I don't know. I don't know if they will. I don't know if they can see it. Yeah. And,

00:41:41   and so that's a possibility too. So I think it's all there. I do think you're right though, that

00:41:45   if there's any way physically for Apple to bring etched glass that reduces glare into every single

00:41:54   product they make, they will. And if, if, and that means the iPad and the iPhone, which means they

00:42:01   may have to figure out how to solve the problem of how do you do this, but also have oily fingers on

00:42:08   the screen. And if there's any possible way for them to do it, they'll do it right. Because that's

00:42:13   a way for them to push their glass on their devices forward and make a better experience

00:42:19   for everybody, at least as an option. So it's worth watching and you know, you would need to be

00:42:26   an expert at nano texture, glass etching, and how oils deposit on a screen and all of that. And

00:42:34   we're not that. So I look forward to hearing what the experts say or seeing what they do about that.

00:42:39   But you know, it's in the meantime, this thing is real. Like it's really nice. And I would buy one.

00:42:46   If I had a glare problem, I would buy one unreservedly because it looks really good.

00:42:50   I've got it positioned opposite my existing iMac, which means it is facing toward the window in my

00:42:58   office. And I've been editing video. I've actually been editing my 20 Max for 2020 videos on it

00:43:04   this past week because it's way faster than my iMac. And until I send it back, then my iMac Pro,

00:43:10   until I send it back, I kind of want to use that power and it lets me use the nano texture display

00:43:15   and the glare is just not an issue. It's just not. It's amazing. So like I'm a real nano texture

00:43:21   believer. I think it is the banner product or feature of this. It is also the only feature of

00:43:27   the iMac that hasn't been seen on another Mac before. It was on the Pro display XDR, but like

00:43:34   everything else in the iMac is I had somebody on Twitter who was trying to tell me like, oh,

00:43:39   you know, this is a, it's something positive about the iMac having, you know, having picked up all

00:43:43   this stuff. And my, my, my thought was, I don't want to give it too much credit. This is a little

00:43:47   bit like that argument about do you give Apple credit for finally doing something it should have

00:43:50   done five years before it's a little like that because it's like, do we credit the iMac for

00:43:55   adding the T2 processor that was in the 2007 iMac Pro or 2017 iMac Pro? Like do we give it credit

00:44:03   for that or 20, 2017, 2016? I can look, let me look. I'm going to just look. Hmm. 2017, December,

00:44:12   2017. All right. Do we give it credit for being the T2 Mac when we already had one almost three

00:44:18   years ago in an iMac? Like I don't and the T2 is great and the T2 adds a bunch of stuff,

00:44:24   but it's not new to the Mac. The new three, three microphone system that with, you know,

00:44:31   quote unquote studio quality audio is the MacBook Pro 16 system. It's not new. It's new to the iMac,

00:44:39   but it's not new. Like what's nice about this computer is that it integrates finally to the iMac

00:44:44   the 27 inch model, not the 21.5 inch model that was completely untouched. It integrates this new

00:44:50   stuff. That's great. And that's why I think people who are looking for a new iMac and don't want to

00:44:54   be on the cutting edge of all this Apple Silicon business can get this thing and they're going to

00:44:59   get arguably the state of the art, the final state of the art Intel iMac before the switch, right?

00:45:05   Like the final state of the art Intel Mac with all of this tech that Apple's been working on the last

00:45:10   few years packed into it. But in terms of like newness to the Mac, other than the nanotexture

00:45:18   thing, there's kind of nothing here, right? Like this is all stuff that we've seen somewhere else

00:45:22   and they're just kind of rolling it into the iMac. It's great that they're doing it. I wish they had

00:45:25   done it a couple of years ago, but it's great that they finally did it here at the end so that the

00:45:29   27 inch iMac has that T2 and all of that. By the way, as a note, because people have been asking me

00:45:34   about it, I'm running my benchmark tests. So I'm running these tests that really stress out the CPU

00:45:39   and the GPU. And I'll tell you the one thing that they, they apparently they tweaked it a little bit

00:45:44   because the power draw on the new chips is different than on the old chips. But like,

00:45:49   basically the cooling system in the iMac is the cooling system in the iMac, not the cooling system

00:45:55   in the iMac Pro. And that was readily apparent when I ran my benchmark tests and my little iMac

00:46:02   Pro just silently with a very, like a stream of warm air silently blowing out the back of it,

00:46:08   just kept on chugging away. And the moment I pressed the button, all the fans on the iMac

00:46:14   cranked up audibly and stayed up for the entire time that it was working on it. So if you're,

00:46:20   if you're, if you're sound sensitive and not a lot of people are that sound sensitive, but I know like

00:46:25   talking to Steven Hackett about, you know, he, he went, now he has a Mac Pro, but he went from an

00:46:30   iMac to an iMac Pro. And one of the reasons was he records podcasts and a loud blowing fan is not

00:46:37   great for that. So, um, it's still that loud blowing fan. So it's fast, but it's also noisy.

00:46:43   I will say like, so, uh, I'm recording from my home office today, but I've been recording a lot

00:46:49   from my studio recently and I'm using my Mac mini there. Oh boy, did those fans go. Uh-huh. And I

00:46:56   hear it like randomly a lot and I'm reminded that's what computers used to be like and are like,

00:47:06   but I am blessed with this professional Macintosh in front of me here that doesn't, you know,

00:47:11   the only time I ever hear the fans on my iMac Pro is when I absolutely expect to, right? Like

00:47:20   when I'm doing something like, um, forecast, which is Marco's, uh, tool for encoding, right? MP3s.

00:47:27   And aggressively multi-threaded. It is what it is doing at that time is the,

00:47:32   basically the maximum it can possibly do. That's what the app is meant to do for,

00:47:36   for encoding MP3s really quickly. So I hear it for a couple of seconds then,

00:47:41   but other than now, I never hear the fans on my iMac Pro, but on my Mac mini, I could just be like

00:47:47   in Safari and all of a sudden it's like screaming at me. I'm like, what are you doing? What's wrong

00:47:52   with you? You know, I go to activity monitor and everything seems fine, but something's kicking off

00:47:57   the fans because that's just what happens. And so, yeah, that's, that's going to be a thing here too,

00:48:01   right? With that 27 inch iMac is it's going to be really good, but it will kick up the fans and make

00:48:08   noise more if that's the thing that bothers you because either A, your work requires silence or B,

00:48:14   you just don't like it, then fine. You know, that that's going to be a problem for you,

00:48:20   which is a difference with the Mac Pro. But I would wonder anyway, if like, you know, in our

00:48:27   Apple Silicon future, it might not be so much of a problem anyway, because I mean, we have really

00:48:33   powerful ARM chips with no fans now. Yeah. You know, maybe that runs better. So I would say,

00:48:38   you know, you've mentioned, as you mentioned it in your article about Last Hurrah, this really does

00:48:43   feel like a Last Hurrah because of the fact that they integrated so many technologies that are in

00:48:49   the Mac line into this Mac, right? Like, you know, they, all the T2 stuff, right? Like the web, they

00:48:56   upgraded the webcam. It's essentially the iMac Pro webcam, right? It's a 1080 webcam and the digital

00:49:01   signal processing is being done on the T2 so they can do, you know, more dynamic alteration of the,

00:49:07   of the brightness and the contrast. And they do some face detection to try to figure out who is

00:49:11   supposed to be at the, you know, the best lighting and then focus on that and light for that. Like

00:49:17   that's in there. Like great. Like finally the iMac Pro or the iMac webcam is better, but like, again,

00:49:23   nothing new, but it is the, I want to, I want to not praise it for being last to the party,

00:49:30   but I do want to praise it as a product for having everything that Apple has been working for

00:49:37   over the last few years to make the Mac better while still having an Intel processor in it.

00:49:42   Any final thoughts on this? Or do you feel like you've kind of wrapped up the iMac?

00:49:46   I think so. I mean, again, like I said at the beginning, you know who you are if you're

00:49:52   thinking of buying one. And like I can say it's good. It is, while it's not super exciting, it is

00:50:00   the final form of the Intel iMac and it will serve you well if you need an iMac right now and you're

00:50:10   not worried about what comes next because you just want a good iMac. It's gonna, it's gonna serve you

00:50:14   well. The fact that it goes all the way up to a 10 core i9, that it blows my iMac Pro out of the

00:50:20   water, like it's got power to spare. So, and the only other thing I would say is don't buy the 21

00:50:27   and a half inch iMac in any form. They changed the base configuration to have SSDs, but otherwise

00:50:34   it's unchanged. And I'll remind you last year when they updated it, they didn't give it the eighth,

00:50:38   the ninth generation Intel processors. They gave it the eighth generation Intel processors.

00:50:43   So it was already kind of a step behind and now it's another step behind. And if we look into the

00:50:49   tea leaves a little bit and we think about that Ming-Chi Kuo report about what's coming for the

00:50:55   Apple Silicon Macs late this year or early next year, it sounds like a 24 inch iMac is in the

00:51:01   works, which feels very much to me like Apple is not bothering to do any updates to the 21 and a

00:51:06   half inch iMac because the small iMac is going to be where they start the remake of the iMac.

00:51:13   And so I know it's, I know it's the cheap iMac. Don't get it. Like that's, that's one where I

00:51:20   can just say stop, do not get the small iMac. But if you want a 27 inch iMac and you're not worried

00:51:26   about that cutting edge and you're happy to avoid the cutting edge, you will get all of the tech

00:51:32   that Apple has sort of perfected over the last three or four years rolled into this iMac at last

00:51:37   and it's fast and it's Intel. You can bootcamp it. You can do all those things that you won't be able

00:51:42   to do on Apple Silicon and nanotexture. It's, I want to say it's shiny, but it's not. It's the

00:51:49   opposite of shiny. New and dull, but in a good way. The best kind of dull. With this also came,

00:51:58   the macOS Big Sur public beta. I think it was the same day that both the reviews of your,

00:52:05   of the iMac and the public beta came out, right? And you had an article kind of wrapping up a lot

00:52:11   of some of your thoughts on Big Sur. Why do you think it's taken this long for the Big Sur public

00:52:18   beta to come out? I don't know. I think my, I don't know. I don't know. I can speculate and say that

00:52:26   maybe they just weren't happy with the qualities of the betas that they had or, and they wanted

00:52:31   to get it to be stable. Like I know they were tweaking like APFS so that they could get it so

00:52:36   that if you installed it on a drive with another, it wouldn't get inserted in Catalina and say,

00:52:42   I don't know what this is, right? Like stuff like that, which they fixed and like there have been

00:52:46   tweaks to it. I think maybe there's a standard there of what is supposed to go out to the public

00:52:52   that they felt they hadn't reached yet. So that's my best guess is that they just, they really didn't

00:53:00   think it was good enough. And the nice thing about Big Sur is it's not tied to a release like iOS is,

00:53:09   which is so tied to the iPhone. And as we've seen in the past, Apple seems to have no problem

00:53:15   releasing amazing new features for iPhone and iPad and saying, and the Mac will get these features

00:53:20   too with the new Mac OS whenever it shows up and then letting it just kind of show up whenever it

00:53:26   needs to. So if, if iOS and iPad OS are coming in September, would it be surprising if Big Sur came

00:53:32   in October or November? I don't think so. The only reason, the only reason to press forward with Big

00:53:41   Sur for Apple is if Apple Silicon Macs are tied to it. But even then, do they have to, do they have

00:53:48   to, yeah, I assume they are. Do they have to release Big Sur and Apple Silicon Macs in October?

00:53:57   They don't, they could do it in November or December or whatever. And maybe that is one of

00:54:00   the reasons Apple is hedging about, you know, it's like by the end of the year for Apple Silicon is,

00:54:06   is it's tied to Big Sur. I don't know. I don't know why Big Sur is late, but Apple can afford for it

00:54:14   to be late. Yeah. We spent a lot of time on this show, uh, breaking down certain parts of Big Sur,

00:54:20   like the icons and the sounds. Um, do you have, having spent more time of it, do you have like

00:54:27   big thoughts about like things that you like, things that you don't like, like where are you

00:54:31   kind of sitting with Big Sur right now? Um, I like it more than most podcasts hosts you may have heard

00:54:41   about. I, you know, it's, it's early yet. I'm inclined to say that I, that I, it makes me

00:54:49   enthusiastic about the future of the Mac. I likened it in my review to like Good Cop, Bad Cop,

00:54:58   like Catalina was the bad cop Catalina was like, no, no compatibility with old apps. No, get out.

00:55:04   No, lots of security warnings. Get your security in line people. And Big Sur is like, Hey everybody,

00:55:11   new OS shiny and bright and new icons. And, and you know, and it's still all the things

00:55:18   that Catalina is incompatible with. It's incompatible with, but like that's in the

00:55:22   review by a year. And I've talked to people who are like, Oh, you know, maybe I'll go to Big Sur,

00:55:27   but I didn't like Catalina. It's like, well, Big Sur has all the issues in a way that Catalina had

00:55:31   in that it's going to make all your old stuff incompatible. If it's a 32 bit app that hasn't

00:55:35   been updated to 64 bit, but you know, by putting the, and I'm, I'm not really a believer that Apple

00:55:42   structured it this way. So people would just hate Catalina and then bless, uh, Apple Silicon and Big

00:55:48   Sur. Um, but that is sort of the net effect about stuff like this, where I do believe that Apple,

00:55:54   um, make decisions in advance in that way. Uh, I, I think Apple wanted the transition to go smoothly

00:56:03   and that's why they did it with Catalina and not because they wanted people to, uh, it's, it's,

00:56:11   you could see it either way, right? Do a transition to go smoothly also means not going into a

00:56:17   transition with a whole bunch of broken apps. So breaking them a year before helps the transition

00:56:22   go smoothly and also helps people not hate on your new Apple Silicon max because they're the

00:56:27   thing that broke the software because instead it's big, bad Catalina that broke it last year.

00:56:31   And, you know, I think yes, to a certain extent, those are both probably true. So fair enough,

00:56:37   fair enough. Um, but you know, the, the look of it, like it takes some getting used to,

00:56:42   it's got some things that needs to tweak, but, uh, like taking up more space.

00:56:47   Once I looked at big Sur, I started to think about how so many design decisions on Mac OS are based

00:56:54   on a real lack of screen space, like wanting to be super dense and that you look at big Sur and

00:57:03   it's like, it's just, there's white space everywhere. There's padding everywhere.

00:57:07   And yes, a lot of us think that that means touch is coming, but I think also it is Apple saying,

00:57:16   yeah, big screens are good. We like big screens. We're not going to make teeny tiny screen max

00:57:20   anymore. Ever again, you know, maybe they'll have a 12 inch screen someday, but otherwise like,

00:57:26   no, like that the 13 inch might be the base. Like let's take some space to air this whole thing out.

00:57:33   They are willing to do that. I kind of like the, the high contrast windows. I, again,

00:57:38   are there some specific issues there? Yes. But, um, I think all of our gray shaded

00:57:45   stuff in current Mac OS is going to feel, uh, real old, like brushed metal, kind of old,

00:57:52   really fast because not only is it a kind of a design trend kind of thing, but it's just,

00:57:58   I think it's nice. I think it looks good. I think there are lots of things they need to fix.

00:58:01   Um, I don't, we, we went over the icons and how I think that they're not trying with some of those

00:58:06   icons, but the fact is every icon on the Mac is going to be around direct and all the apps that

00:58:11   don't support the round direct icon are going to feel old. So they're going to have to update all

00:58:15   of those too. And, uh, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's radical and they're going to walk some of it back

00:58:19   and there are things about it that I don't like. I think the translucency in the menu bar is a mistake

00:58:24   and it makes it very hard to read and it's bad. But, um, overall I'm actually kind of encouraged

00:58:30   about big Sur. And again, I'm probably one of the people who is also reacting to it versus Catalina

00:58:37   and saying, you know, Catalina brought the bad news and big Sur is sort of like trying to be

00:58:42   about the future and what the Mac is going to be going forward. And I'm much more receptive to that

00:58:47   message than the message that Catalina brought, which is I'm going to enforce a lot of security

00:58:52   and incompatibility issues because we need to change the platform. That was not fun.

00:58:56   I like one thing that you said, which is I'm open to the possibility that Apple just thinks

00:59:01   that our displays are big enough now that they can afford to look a little less cramped. And this is

00:59:06   in reference to, you know, lots of people have been saying that a lot of the spacing in big Sur

00:59:11   might be for touch, but it's actually a thing where maybe they just decided that the UI needed

00:59:19   to be more spread apart. No, I think it's very, once you look at big Sur and then you go back to

00:59:25   Catalina, you look at it and you realize, wow, like there are a lot of places where it's as if

00:59:31   this was designed by somebody who's just desperate to shave off pixels. Like let's get this element

00:59:36   as close to the edge of the window or the screen as possible. And you know, when you're in an

00:59:44   environment with, as somebody who had an 11 inch, I still do, it's right here, 11 inch MacBook Air,

00:59:49   that's true. But Apple sort of saying, nah, not so much anymore. We think big screens are where

00:59:57   it's at. We're going to give everything a little bit of room and it's nicer. It's nicer. I know

01:00:03   that it's waste, quote unquote, wasted space and all, but once you see it, you realize that some

01:00:08   of this stuff is like in normal design circumstances, you'd look at it and say, why is

01:00:14   that so close to the edge? Like, can we, can we pad that a little bit? Like it shouldn't be that

01:00:18   close. It shouldn't be crammed in there like that. It's crammed in there because a lot of Mac design

01:00:24   is desperately trying to stick as many things in as small a space as possible in order to fit it

01:00:28   on the screen. You mentioned a bunch of improvements to Catalyst as well. How is that feeling in Big

01:00:37   Sur? They've introduced new applications, they've added new APIs. You seem pretty positive about

01:00:43   Catalyst going forward. Well, I've talked to some developers who say that Catalyst going forward

01:00:49   has a lot of things that Catalyst last year didn't have. So that they're really encouraged to be able

01:00:54   to use Catalyst and because Apple has brought so many different apps over, including Messages and

01:00:59   Maps to Catalyst, Apple is motivated in making Catalyst better. And so last year we were like,

01:01:04   well, Mac Catalyst, we were really excited about it, but this is it. And this year it feels like

01:01:09   this is really it and Apple is really using it to build apps. And also we now sort of see Apple's

01:01:15   grand plan here to unify these platforms. And we're going to enter a situation where your iPad

01:01:22   app will run on the Mac on Apple Silicon unmodified, but if you do a little extra work,

01:01:29   it'll be much better on the Mac. And I'm encouraged that a lot of app developers will take that extra

01:01:34   step, especially now that Catalyst is giving them more tools to do it. A lot of my positivity about

01:01:41   it is that Messages is a bad app on Catalina. Like it's bad. I don't know if this has happened to

01:01:48   you. Have you had this where you click on a tab in the Messages view when you start to type a

01:01:52   message and for some reason it flips to a different message and now you're typing a text message to

01:01:56   the wrong person? Happens to me all the time. It's infuriating. It's really bad, right? And that has

01:02:02   been happening to me for years and it just keeps happening. It's sort of random. I don't know why.

01:02:08   And so now every time I send a message in Messages, I have to double check. I like copy out to the

01:02:15   message text just in case. And then I look and see, is this going to the right person? And then

01:02:20   I'll send it. And the new version of Messages that's written with Catalyst, it's coming from

01:02:25   iOS and it's in Catalyst on Big Sur, feels like Messages. Plus it has every feature that the Mac

01:02:32   never got from Messages. You can open pop-open conversations in other windows and stuff. And

01:02:37   yeah, if you look very, very closely, you can detect that it's probably a Catalyst app,

01:02:42   which it is, but it feels like a Mac app. And I think that that's, I'm really encouraged by that.

01:02:48   Plus the fact that they like change the date pickers and stuff. So it's the super saddest

01:02:52   things about like the spinning wheel for the date picker that they left there for a couple of years.

01:02:59   Like those are gone now and that's good. You mentioned something about Safari that was a

01:03:05   surprise to me because I know that Apple were talking about the extensions, like people could

01:03:08   bring over their extensions and that would be great. But I just assumed that Apple was doing

01:03:13   something to make those work in the backend, but it seems like developers would actually need to

01:03:18   submit them for Xcode and stuff, which wasn't what I expected. Yeah. So one of the things that I did

01:03:22   is in the review, I expressed some skepticism about this thing that I actually am excited about,

01:03:26   which is the fact that they're using the extension API that was there, that's there in Firefox and

01:03:31   Chrome to do browser extensions. But of course it's Apple. And so it ends up being this question

01:03:37   of like what app extension or browser extension developers are going to want to be in Safari

01:03:44   because it's not just a case where I can go to a website where there's a Chrome extension

01:03:49   and download it and run it in Safari. It's not that way. They changed some of the security things.

01:03:54   So you have to basically, as a developer, you have to bring it, you have to have a Mac.

01:03:59   First off, you have to bring it into Xcode. You have to make sure that you're following

01:04:03   Apple's security stuff or it won't work. So you may actually have to change your app

01:04:09   to be more secure or support privacy better. And then you have to submit it to the app store.

01:04:14   And then it shows up in the Safari extensions section of the app store. So you can do it and

01:04:20   that's great. And if you're the developer of a major browser extension that you built for Chrome

01:04:26   and you want access to Safari, you can get it now. But what if you don't have a Mac? Well,

01:04:32   you're going to need to get one. You're going to need to investigate all the ways that Safari

01:04:39   clamps down on security and privacy that maybe you didn't need to worry about on Chrome. And then

01:04:45   you're going to need to submit it to the app store and learn that process and then get it in the app

01:04:49   store. And then it'll be on Safari. So I think it's a real question about whether people will

01:04:53   do that. So while it's potentially a big win for Safari users because that web extension

01:05:01   technology is coming to Safari, the workflow for it still is going to require a lot of developers.

01:05:08   And I think it's worth asking the question, will they care enough to support Safari?

01:05:13   They've made it easier, not easy. Yeah. And my answer would probably be the moment that it runs

01:05:18   on the iPad and the iPhone, they'll care about it. Yeah. Okay. Good point. Good point. Which may

01:05:23   happen, right? Like especially with the iPad, I guess, at least I would, who should install the

01:05:30   public beta Jason of big Sur? Should anybody? I don't know. I'm going to, I'm going to go back

01:05:36   to what I said about the iMac, which is, you know, who you are like, I would wait it's early in the

01:05:41   cycle, even though it's August it's early in the cycle. I don't know what you're going to get out

01:05:45   of it. I mean, you could install it in an external drive or something and see, but like, I would

01:05:50   wait, I would wait until the they've until they've got it locked down. It's, you know, using a beta,

01:05:57   I have to do it, but you don't have to do it. So if you're not a developer or somebody who really

01:06:04   needs to be in big Sur, I would wait it out because that's what public beta processes are

01:06:08   all about is people finding bugs. And if you want to be a bug hunter and live with the frustration

01:06:12   of it, then go ahead. But like as a, your software, some of your software is going to break all the

01:06:18   audio software that we use breaks in big Sur right now, and has not been updated yet. Although, um,

01:06:24   rogue Amoeba stuff just doesn't work yet. So I don't know it's, uh, right now I'm just sort of

01:06:30   skeptical about this. You run a beta because you're curious and that's great or because you

01:06:34   want to help or because you have to, but, uh, be well aware that although big Sur seems to work

01:06:41   pretty well for me and I didn't really have any problems. You are subjecting yourself to beta

01:06:45   software in your operating system and it's not great. And just in general, because there will

01:06:51   be bugs and weirdness. And so, you know, I think big service for the people who install big Sur

01:06:57   this fall and the public beta, you know who you are. Otherwise I would wait. For me, like I

01:07:03   install the iOS public, the iOS developer beta and stuff like that. And I would do that even if I

01:07:09   wasn't reporting on them and talking about them because I'm would be excited the same way that I

01:07:14   am excited, but I would not install the beta of Mac OS on it on like my main computer. Like I put

01:07:23   iOS on my iPhone because I just feel like for me, I feel like there is more potential disruption and

01:07:30   damage that could be done to my Mac computing life than could be done with my iOS computing life.

01:07:37   Even though I am a primarily iOS person, I just feel like it could be way worse for me to use

01:07:43   a beta on my Mac than on my iOS devices. If something went wrong, the things that could go

01:07:49   wrong on my Mac feel worse to me, but that's just my own kind of like internal bromance for beta

01:07:56   software, especially in software. And it's your feeling about like, yeah, where, where are you

01:08:02   willing to get benefit of beta stuff and where are you not willing to get the negative part of beta

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01:09:49   for their support of this show and relay FM. So there's been some stories, a lot of reports

01:09:56   about Apple and game streaming services over the last week, especially with Microsoft. They

01:10:03   confirmed that their xCloud service would not be coming to iOS. xCloud is a game streaming service.

01:10:11   So there's games being played from the cloud. It's not like a great game subscription service

01:10:19   like Apple Arcade where you pay one fee and you get access to a bunch of games. xCloud is part of

01:10:28   Xbox's Game Pass service where it basically works in a couple of different ways, which makes this

01:10:34   confusing. But the xCloud part of Game Pass is you can stream games to devices that are not Xboxes.

01:10:40   So you play from the cloud. It's more like Google Stadia if you're familiar with that.

01:10:44   So Apple have made some statements, Microsoft have made some statements. Apple are basically saying

01:10:52   that a service like this can't exist on iOS because they cannot review each title individually.

01:10:58   This is a statement that they gave to, I believe, Insider and they also gave a similar statement in

01:11:04   March to Bloomberg. I believe this is in reference to Stadia and other things. So they're basically

01:11:10   saying that they want to be able to review every game and a service like xCloud means that they

01:11:16   can't review every game. That's Apple's line, right? Because there are games and etc. Like

01:11:21   it's one app. They want things to be there and they also want all kind of games to show up in

01:11:26   search and in charts standalone. They don't like the idea of one application with like a hundred

01:11:34   of games in it or whatever and Apple doesn't get to see all of them listed out for their customers.

01:11:39   Microsoft are unhappy. They have said Apple stands alone as the only general purpose platform

01:11:44   to deny consumers from cloud gaming, game subscription services like Xbox Game Pass.

01:11:49   Now there's a lot of people making lots of arguments about this online about different,

01:11:55   you know, saying are Apple right or Apple wrong? Is Microsoft right? Is Microsoft wrong?

01:11:59   I want to give my take on all of this, Jason, if that's okay. And then I'm sure you will have your

01:12:04   own as well. I think that this is all a load of BS from Apple. I think that this is madness from them.

01:12:11   This idea of the individual review of content doesn't hold up to any logical test in my mind.

01:12:17   People like look, this is an often made thing now, like an often made argument about this about

01:12:23   they don't review all of the content on Netflix. But I think that that makes a lot of sense,

01:12:28   right? Like I don't understand why because it's a game. Apple needs to one review every title and

01:12:35   then two, they need to show up in charts. Doesn't make sense to me why this is the case for game

01:12:40   streaming services. And frankly, the games that Xbox sell, the games that are part of Game Pass

01:12:47   are reviewed much more stringently than Apple, right? So a quote from Microsoft and this is true.

01:12:53   All games available in Xbox Game Pass catalog are rated by content for content by independent

01:12:58   industry ratings bodies, such as the ESRB and regional equivalents, right? So console games

01:13:03   go through this external review to age rate them, right? This doesn't happen on the App Store. Apple

01:13:12   decided. And also, there are way less games allowed and available in the Xbox Store, let

01:13:19   alone Game Pass. Game Pass is like a heavily curated system. It's kind of more like Apple

01:13:25   Arcade in that regard in that there is a store and then there's also a Game Pass. Most Xbox Game Pass

01:13:30   games are games made by Microsoft and their own studios. I think it can be very well argued that

01:13:36   the quality barrier for a game on Xbox is vastly higher than what Apple says for the App Store.

01:13:43   Because you get a ton of crap in the App Store, right? Just like bad games. There aren't bad,

01:13:50   quote unquote, bad games or games that don't work in Game Pass, because that's just not how that

01:13:55   works, right? Like that's just not how that system is. It is a very different system. You can get

01:14:00   games with bugs, of course. You can get games that crash, of course. But the idea of this like,

01:14:06   oh, Apple's review system is like way, but it's just not true. Like in my opinion, and I think

01:14:12   I genuinely think this is true, that the level, the quality barrier for what can be approved into

01:14:18   the Game Pass is higher than Apple. But let's just call this what it is. Apple wants a cut,

01:14:23   right? Like I cannot see this any other way. Apple is saying one thing, but I think it's pretty clear

01:14:31   that Apple doesn't want to allow another category of services into the App Store that can be these

01:14:39   reader apps, because that's what Microsoft will submit to them, right? They will create an

01:14:44   application where you just sign in. They don't want to give Apple a cut, right? So they will

01:14:49   create one of these applications that would have to be classed as reader apps in the App Store,

01:14:56   right? So Apple won't be able to get their cut of it. I think that recent history makes me feel very

01:15:01   confident about this idea that the issue is that Apple wants to take their 30% or their 15%,

01:15:06   and Microsoft don't want to give it to them. If that is wrong to assume that, fine. But I think

01:15:12   that this year has shown that Apple super care about this. So I feel pretty justified in saying

01:15:19   that's what's really going on here. Because if Apple really want to review all the games,

01:15:24   Microsoft can let them, right? They can say, "Here you go. It is all 100 games. We've created a demo

01:15:30   account for you. Go ahead and review them." So then that's why they also say, "Oh, we also want

01:15:34   them to show up individually." But why would Apple care about this? In what way is that a good

01:15:39   experience to the customer? That every Xbox Game Pass game would show up individually on the App

01:15:45   Store? Who cares about that? That's not how the model for this service works. You pay a flat fee

01:15:49   and get everything. So the better customer experience is like, "I am an Xbox Game Pass

01:15:54   subscriber. I just want the Xbox Game Pass app or the X-Cloud app." This is another example,

01:16:00   in my opinion, of Apple trying to tell Microsoft how to run their business.

01:16:04   And I think Apple likes to do this these days, right? And you could say, "Oh, this is Microsoft

01:16:09   telling Apple how to run their business." I don't think that's the case because the iOS App Store

01:16:15   and iOS devices very clearly are made and sent out to run applications like this one, right? Like,

01:16:22   this is a multimedia experience made by a third party. In my opinion, there is absolutely no

01:16:28   difference to a streaming TV service to a streaming game service. And my main issue with all of this

01:16:37   is that if Apple continues this line, iOS users are missing out on something that Android users

01:16:43   can get. Apple is making a worse experience for the App Store and users of the iOS platform if

01:16:49   they continue to make these wild rules that they make people sign up for. Because cloud gaming,

01:16:56   it's becoming a real thing. The X-Cloud service is awesome, right? Like, it works. Stadia works.

01:17:04   Stadia is less awesome because of the game catalog and the pricing. But the pricing and game catalog

01:17:09   for X-Cloud, I am telling you, if you are not aware, this is going to be a thing that you will

01:17:15   miss out on big time at being an iOS customer. Because you would be able to play high quality,

01:17:23   top tier games. We're talking Halo. You would be able to play Halo on your iPad if Apple allowed

01:17:29   this, but they won't. And at the moment, Android will be getting this. Samsung just did a deal with

01:17:36   Microsoft to include three months of this service for free if you buy one of the new Samsung phones.

01:17:41   Like, I really am disappointed that this continues to occur. I think that it is just a bad look for

01:17:51   Apple now. And they need to find ways to work better with companies. Like, we have seen that

01:17:57   they can work if it's in their interest. They'll do the deal that Amazon wants to do if they also

01:18:02   get the right, like, they get that. But they're putting up a wall with Microsoft. They're putting

01:18:06   up a wall with Google. And ultimately, no matter what Apple thinks, their customers lose. And I

01:18:14   think that's wrong. That is my statement on this, Jason. Would you like to say how you feel?

01:18:20   - Thank you for your statement. Thank you. Thank you, the chairman, for yielding the rest of his time.

01:18:26   Yeah, I think, look, I see where Apple is coming from here.

01:18:33   You know, Microsoft wants to create a new gaming product that uses Apple's hardware as a console,

01:18:40   right? Like, they want to say, "Hey, we can now sell all of our console stuff without actually

01:18:46   having to sell you a console. And we get the money." And I can see the argument that if you're

01:18:51   building your business on Apple's hardware, that they should be able to benefit from it in some

01:18:55   ways. And I can see that Apple looks at this and says it makes your iPhone or your iPad a dumb

01:19:00   console. Like, it's a whole dumb pipe argument again. And I get why Apple would be like, "Oh, no,

01:19:05   that doesn't use the unique Apple secret sauce. You're just piping in content from some other

01:19:11   device platform using our amazing software and hardware as a dumb display." And that Apple

01:19:19   wouldn't like that, like, culturally. So I get all of that. But I have to come back to the argument

01:19:23   that we've talked about before about other issues recently, which is, does Apple recognize that it

01:19:31   accrues value from having apps and services on its platforms? Or does it really believe that an iPhone

01:19:37   that was completely empty and devoid of anything except Apple apps would still have the same appeal?

01:19:43   Now, that's an extreme example. And of course, they wouldn't agree with that. They love the

01:19:46   App Store. And they love talking about the App Store. But I think this is one of the things

01:19:50   that's missing when you get in an issue like, "Hey," where they said Basecamp has been able to

01:19:56   run a whole business for free on our platform. And the strong implication there is that they were

01:19:59   ripping off Apple in some way by doing that and not viewing the other part of it, which is, yeah,

01:20:05   millions of business users rely on Basecamp and they can use your product. And if they couldn't,

01:20:10   then they would use somebody else's product, right? Like, Apple has this real tension between

01:20:15   believing that Apple's the reason everybody's there and wanting to promote the App Store

01:20:20   and all these great apps that make you want to be there. Because I think, in its heart of hearts,

01:20:24   Apple really wants to believe that no individual app is important. That in the end, the greatness

01:20:32   of Apple will win out over any individual app or service. That, like, push comes to shove,

01:20:39   and this app that you want to use isn't on Apple's platforms, what are you going to do?

01:20:43   Get the app's competitor that is or switch to another platform. And Apple, in its heart of

01:20:48   hearts, believes you'll stay because Apple's so great. And sometimes you will. But you also might

01:20:55   devalue your platform if a major thing isn't there, right? Like, that is the back and forth

01:21:00   here. Obviously, Apple can do what it wants. But it does feel like so many of these clashes

01:21:06   are rooted in this philosophy where, you know, they simultaneously believe that iOS is a place

01:21:12   where third parties can bring apps to enhance the platform, and they have this fear that they're

01:21:17   being taken advantage of, or that somebody is making a big profit building a business that

01:21:21   doesn't have any direct benefit to them. And there's a tension between these two things,

01:21:26   and I think it's the core of all of these kinds of stories. And where you see it at its worst

01:21:34   is that Apple builds a whole bunch of tools to protect customers, to make sure that the app

01:21:41   store and that the platform is safe and secure in a bunch of different ways. Although, again,

01:21:48   sidebar, there are also lots of scammy, crummy things on the app store that they don't protect

01:21:53   consumers from. But they do have some of these rules that are, you know, they built this system.

01:21:58   The theory is they built the system to protect users and make a better experience. And then they

01:22:03   use those tools to collect rent or keep competitors off their platform. I think in the end, you know,

01:22:10   it is a philosophical argument, and you and I are on the same side, which is to say,

01:22:16   Apple's platforms are better when interesting things like streaming gaming services are on it

01:22:24   than they are when they're not on it. And Apple Arcade is its own thing and is not related to

01:22:30   this. Like, this is an improvement for the platform. Find a way to work it out and let it

01:22:35   be there. Because philosophically, we think Apple should err on the side of letting its platform be

01:22:42   open because in the end, Apple sells more iPhones, Apple sells more iPads because Microsoft has

01:22:48   created this. Even if they don't benefit at all financially from it, I would also argue,

01:22:54   come on, of course they could make a deal and benefit financially from it. Of course they could.

01:23:00   Of course they could. And I think it's entirely possible that this is just a lag issue. And at

01:23:05   some point, somebody at Apple, an executive somewhere is going to say, "Oh, there's money

01:23:10   to be made here. We should just make a deal and we should make this happen." And they're going to

01:23:13   take the rules that exist and they're going to, instead of saying, "Well, we have to enforce our

01:23:17   rules," they'll actually change the rules. But I can see the other side of it, which is that Apple

01:23:25   says, "No, we're not, we don't want, this is not our vision for our platform." To have Microsoft

01:23:30   roll in with something that they're taking all the money from and using our platform as a dumb

01:23:35   terminal, a dumb display box, and it doesn't accrue a lot of value to our platform. And if

01:23:41   somebody's really into it on the iPad, it doesn't provide any reason why they should stay on the

01:23:45   iPad and not just buy an Android box next time, an Android device of some kind. So it doesn't really

01:23:51   help us. And so if you're not really helping us, why should we help you? Like, I get it.

01:23:55   Can I make a point on that?

01:23:56   Sure. I don't agree with that, but I can see somebody at Apple saying that. And that is,

01:24:02   like, I get that as a philosophy, even if I don't agree with it. I think it's mistaken,

01:24:08   but I don't think it's provably wrong as much as it is, that's not how I view their platforms.

01:24:14   Because I think that there is a, I believe that there are people that will say this,

01:24:18   but I think there's a fundamental issue in that thinking, which is, if you believe that's the case,

01:24:24   you allow for it to be proven. Because if you do not allow for these types of services

01:24:31   to be on your platform because it makes you just like an Android device,

01:24:34   all it's doing is pushing people towards that if that's what they want from their tablet.

01:24:41   Right? Like, it pushes people to get a Surface Go next time, because they get whatever they get

01:24:48   from there, and they also get to play Game Pass games from X Cloud. Right? Like, if, and I think

01:24:55   that it is a fundamental misunderstanding of what Apple's platforms are. Like, fundamental

01:25:03   misunderstanding. Because the iPhone and the iPad, for many people, are their main computers.

01:25:11   And they just do whatever computers do. Right? Like, Apple love their web browser. Right?

01:25:22   The web browser is a dumb terminal to whatever's on the web.

01:25:26   They have no control over that, and they shouldn't. And I believe that they should allow

01:25:33   for applications like this one. Yeah, sure, it might not be your vision for what iOS can do,

01:25:40   but games are important to a lot of people. And if this is one of the future points of gaming,

01:25:47   and it is, because they're all doing it. Right? Sony's gonna have it, Microsoft has it,

01:25:52   Google has it, and there are many more companies doing a similar thing.

01:25:55   You will be leaving your users out in the cold, and to assume that for some reason your tablet is

01:26:01   so special that it shouldn't have, like, you know what you should say, Apple? You should say,

01:26:06   our screens are the best screens to play these games on. Exactly. And you work with Microsoft

01:26:11   to make this HDR or whatever. Like, our device is the best device on there to play games,

01:26:16   to play our games, to play their games, to play Netflix, to play our shows. Right? You compete

01:26:22   on the fact that you think that your hardware and your larger experience is better, right?

01:26:25   Which comes back to what I was saying about, is this all about the greatness of your platform,

01:26:29   or is it about the apps, or is it both? And the answer needs to be, it all goes together.

01:26:33   But you're right. And this is the thing, is this clash is, like I said, it's rooted in these two

01:26:43   views that Apple holds as culturally relevant inside of Apple simultaneously. And one of them

01:26:49   is, we love our developers, we love the App Store, the App Store enhances iOS, it makes it what it

01:26:55   is. And the other one is, give us our money, you owe us, any business that's built on Apple's

01:27:00   greatness, I want money. What I find fascinating about this story in particular is, Apple seems to

01:27:08   be hiding behind App Store policies saying, "Well, philosophically, this kind of app shouldn't be on

01:27:14   our platform." And as you described, I think very well at the beginning of this segment,

01:27:19   come on, it's not about that. In the end, I think it really is about the money. If it's not about

01:27:26   the money, I'm baffled because they should allow these kinds of apps on there, and they should find

01:27:31   a way to make it worth their while. Like Microsoft, I am sure Microsoft, well, I should say, I'm not

01:27:37   sure. Maybe Microsoft is being a jerk here and saying, "No, no, no, Apple, we're not giving you

01:27:41   any of our money." But surely there is an agreement to be reached where Apple allows them to sign up

01:27:48   on iOS and they take a piece of that, like the other deals that they've got.

01:27:52   - They get the Amazon deal.

01:27:54   - Surely there's a way for Apple to wet its beak a little bit on this, right? But also let Microsoft

01:28:00   run its business in a way that makes sense for Microsoft because it does accrue value to the

01:28:05   platform to have these kinds of things on there. And if they're not there, it makes it a little

01:28:11   bit less for somebody who's looking for a cheap iPad for their kid and their kid's like, "No,

01:28:16   you can't get an iPad because I can't do xCloud on the iPad." Like that, you don't want that.

01:28:21   You don't want that. You're not gonna kill your business to get this service, but I don't think

01:28:26   this service is gonna kill your business. So yeah, in the end, I think it's gonna take some executive

01:28:32   at Apple to break through. When you have an internal culture disparity like this, you have

01:28:40   to have somebody in a position of power to say who wins. And right now, there may be somebody in a

01:28:48   position of power saying who wins, or it may be that it has not elevated to the point where

01:28:52   somebody who's got both of those things in mind and can arbitrate between them. It may be that

01:28:57   it's the people who hold the lever are the people who think one thing and the people who think the

01:29:04   other thing don't hold that lever. But it might escalate to Tim Cook or whoever who says, "No,

01:29:09   no, no, no. We gotta do this differently." And that's what we don't know right now is I'm unclear

01:29:16   how far this has escalated and whether Apple has really thought this through. We don't know if

01:29:20   there are some details in the negotiations that we don't understand. It would be really sad if

01:29:24   this has gone all the way to the top and they've just decided that game streaming services are

01:29:28   never gonna be a thing on Apple's platforms, period. Because although I understand why they

01:29:33   might make a decision like that, I'm disappointed because I think that they should be more open

01:29:38   and less defensive and that they're still going to get value out of it. Plus, yeah, they seem

01:29:44   like cool and new. And as somebody who uses Apple's devices, I would like to try cool and new things

01:29:49   and not be barred from them because Apple doesn't think I should have them. I feel like I'm doing

01:29:55   this a lot recently, but I will again recommend that people listen to or sign up for Dithering,

01:30:00   which is Jon Gruber and Ben Thompson's podcast. And I'll actually put a link in the show notes.

01:30:06   They made like a preview thing on iTunes, like a preview feed. I'll put that in the show notes as

01:30:13   well if you want to get an idea for it. I'll just mention it here because they've been having really

01:30:17   interesting discussions. Like I fundamentally disagree of absolutely every point that Jon

01:30:21   Gruber is making on this on Dithering. But it is really interesting to hear. I mean, I understand

01:30:28   what he's saying. I get his points that he's making. I won't go through them all here, but

01:30:32   I disagree with them. But I mention it here because it's really fun, I think, to listen to

01:30:41   Jon and Ben arguing the way that they argue on the show. I just think that it's like a really

01:30:48   interesting thing to listen to. So I just wanted to mention it here. And they're talking about

01:30:53   high-level sort of strategic issues and business issues. And what's a great thing about them as

01:31:00   a pairing is that if I had to categorize them, I'd say Gruber is an Apple-focused guy, but he's also a

01:31:07   product guy in a way. And Ben is a not... He's got a lot of Apple focus, but it's not just Apple.

01:31:15   And he is a business strategy guy. And that's a really good combination.

01:31:21   Yeah, they fit so well together. It's why I love the show so much. And I want to recommend it again

01:31:27   here, even though I really disagree with everything Jon was saying. I know. I listen to Dithering while

01:31:35   I'm running, and it's amazing. For 15 minutes while I'm running, I am hearing those guys

01:31:40   sometimes agree and sometimes argue and sometimes joke. And yeah, among your paid podcasts,

01:31:46   it's... I listen to every episode the day it comes out. I really love it. It's good.

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01:33:20   of this show and Real AFM. #AskUpgradeTime. Jimmy asks, "Is there a preferred order of article,

01:33:29   podcast, and video for 20 max for 2020?" This is a fun and flattering question. And what I would say

01:33:37   is I could see how you might think so or that you... I also had some people ask like, "Are ones

01:33:44   disposable or do they overlap?" And one of the maybe dumber things that I did in this project

01:33:50   is all three of them are totally different and the amount of content recycled between them is

01:33:55   extremely low. Like, it's all about the same subject every week. But, you know, I wrote the

01:34:02   essays and did the research for that and some of the essay content is reflected in the script for

01:34:07   the podcast, but most of the podcast is other people talking about it, not me. And the video is

01:34:12   me with Stephen Hackett having a conversation about the choice and sometimes he will dispute

01:34:20   my reasoning, which is fun, actually. So he's sort of like interrogating me about my choice and we

01:34:24   talk about each old Mac that we're talking about. So they're all very different and I don't think

01:34:29   that there's any particular order. So consume the ones you like. They're all different. They all

01:34:34   have different things to say about the same subject. And if you want to do them in order

01:34:39   of time, I would say it is article and then podcast and then video because that's the order

01:34:44   in which they were sort of recorded or created. But there's no actual sequence. There's no machete

01:34:51   order. There's just whatever makes you feel good, but they're all different. It's not one of those

01:34:56   things where the podcast is the audio of, you know, of the video and the video is me reading

01:35:01   the essay. They're not like that at all. That's good to know though that they're all different

01:35:07   like that's because that means you can consume all of them if you want to.

01:35:11   - Yeah. And I tried to make them all like the podcast is I got a bunch of people to talk about

01:35:15   these things in a way that is good on a podcast. In the video, I wanted to show the things

01:35:20   and I thought, well, I can't just show them. That's kind of boring. And I was like, well, Steven,

01:35:24   actually the thought process was Steven has most of these. So why don't Steven and I, since he cares

01:35:28   about old Macs too, we'll have a little conversation and also we'll have like his video and photos of

01:35:33   the ones that he's got and we'll post it on 512 pixels. And so that is itself a totally different

01:35:39   thing. So they're all different. - On a similar line, we'll say no spoilers,

01:35:45   but Zach wants to know, Jason, what's your favorite performer?

01:35:48   - You mean like, you're English so I have to be clear here.

01:35:54   - Performer? How would you, how can I do it any differently?

01:35:57   - Performer is how I say it. - Wait, say it again for me and I'll see

01:36:01   if I can replicate it. - Do you mean performer or performer?

01:36:04   - Can you say the computer name and I'll try and replicate you?

01:36:07   - Performer. - Performer. Is that better?

01:36:11   - Okay. No, but it's fine. I get what you mean. - I said it exactly like that.

01:36:14   - Macintosh performer. Zach, none of them. I don't like them. I don't like the performer.

01:36:23   I don't like anything about them. I don't like that you could buy them at Sears.

01:36:29   I know that, sorry to everyone who had a performer growing up.

01:36:32   - There was a lot of them, wow. - I don't like, yeah, well, there weren't

01:36:36   a lot of them. There were a lot of different numbers of the same one because they modeled

01:36:39   different software or sold them at a different store. That was from the dark, dark days of Apple.

01:36:43   - Who was running Apple during the performer time?

01:36:46   - I think that was Scully who actually started that. And then it went over into the Spindler era.

01:36:52   But yeah, my answer is none. None. - Jack asks, I've heard you both

01:37:00   mention a few times that you listen to podcasts in the shower. I've tried, but I find it hard to

01:37:05   understand what people are saying over the sound of running water. - We'll talk louder, Jack. Jack!

01:37:11   - What's your setup? - Game pass for Xbox, Jack.

01:37:15   - What is your setup? Do you have a speaker inside the shower?

01:37:21   - Yeah, I actually got mine recommended to me by Marco Arment. So it's a Marco approved

01:37:28   technique. It's a speaker from Soundbot. That's the company. You can just search for it in Amazon.

01:37:35   They make a Bluetooth or several different kinds of Bluetooth speakers with suction cups on them.

01:37:42   And you stick them in the shower. I only bring mine into the shower for the shower, and then I

01:37:47   take it back out. I don't leave it hanging there because I'm deathly afraid it will lose suction

01:37:51   and smash on the floor of the shower. Not that it has, but that it could do that. So I actually take

01:37:57   it in and out. But I suction it to the glass of my shower. You may have tile, something else,

01:38:02   that's fine. And the clever thing about it is the speaker is on the underside. So the speaker

01:38:07   blasts downward onto your hard shower surface, and then that flies back in your face. And I put it at

01:38:15   kind of ear level, and it's very clear. It's bad for music. I wouldn't recommend it for music.

01:38:21   If you listen to music in the shower as well, I would recommend getting one of those nicer

01:38:24   kind of Bluetooth, waterproof Bluetooth speakers. Like, my daughter has one of those. And you can

01:38:28   like take them into a swimming pool or whatever. Like, it really doesn't matter. But for me,

01:38:34   for listening to podcasts, the Soundbot with the suction cup works great.

01:38:37   - Do you know which one? I have a few now.

01:38:41   - Well, the one that I have is not apparently made anymore.

01:38:45   - Okay.

01:38:46   - But if you search, because I looked when Jack asked this question, I looked for my model,

01:38:53   and my model is not for sale on Amazon right now. But there are others, and I'm sure that they're

01:38:59   all the same in being not very good quality, but good enough for podcasts, and they live with you

01:39:05   in the shower, which is nice. So, you know, mine is the SB 517, but it's not currently for sale.

01:39:16   At Amazon. So I would recommend one of the others, but it has served me well.

01:39:19   - So I used to use one of the Soundbot speakers, but ended up not liking it because I had to keep

01:39:27   recharging it, and I'd get in the shower and turn it on, and it wasn't charged.

01:39:31   - And it beeps every 30 seconds. It makes me so angry when it does that.

01:39:34   - There you go. I had enough of that. So you know what I do? I bring my phone into the shower,

01:39:42   and I have a little shelf in the shower, which I can put it on. It doesn't get,

01:39:47   like, water isn't pouring on it. I mean, it gets wet, but like...

01:39:51   - And it bounces the audio off the shelf, right? - Well, no.

01:39:54   - Turns your whole shelf into a little speaker. - No, because the shelf is wire.

01:39:57   - Oh, okay. Well, that's not as good. - But I find that it is loud enough. You know,

01:40:00   I use Overcast. I have Voice Boost. I have my phone cranked up to the maximum,

01:40:04   and it is more than loud enough for me to hear clearly.

01:40:06   - So I've done that in a hotel shower before, for sure. I've also done that when the Soundbot

01:40:12   starts beeping at me that it doesn't have any battery anymore. And, you know, then I'm kind

01:40:16   of like reaching outside for the towel and then drying off my hands enough to take the leather

01:40:19   case off of my phone. And then I'll bring the phone in, and I'll put it on the little tile,

01:40:24   and then it echoes that back out. So that would be another way to go because these phones are

01:40:29   water-resistant. I wouldn't put it right under the shower or anything, but getting a little damp is

01:40:33   not a big deal. But I just have taken to every week or so, I just recharge the Soundbot and avoid that

01:40:41   annoying beeping thing because that's no good. I wish it would beep once every like five minutes

01:40:46   or something, but it's every 30 seconds, and it makes the podcast unlistenable. That's a bad day

01:40:53   when the beeping is happening in the shower. It's not good.

01:40:55   - Matt asks, "Do you think that any non-pro iPads will have USB-C ports instead of lightning

01:41:03   in the future?" -

01:41:05   What do you think about this? I think eventually.

01:41:08   - I think eventually. I think, okay, so if Apple do what is rumored and expected,

01:41:16   which is to at some point have no charging port on the iPhone, which I think is a possibility for

01:41:21   at some point in the future, I think at that point, all iPads go USB-C, so they don't end up with

01:41:28   some iPads being lightning and some being USB-C, because I don't imagine in the near to medium

01:41:35   future the iPad going like Qi charging. It's too big, right? So even the small iPads, they're too

01:41:45   big for that. It would be weird. It would be difficult to make that work properly. So I would

01:41:50   imagine it happening then, but honestly, I could see them doing it at any point now. Honestly,

01:41:59   I could just imagine being like, "Oh yeah, iPads charge by USB-C. That's that."

01:42:02   - This is like, will any other iPads get the Apple Pencil? And the answer was,

01:42:06   eventually, yeah, all of them, right? Or almost all of them. I feel like this is going to be the

01:42:10   same thing, which is just eventually as the iPad evolves now, it's going to be slow, right? I'm not

01:42:17   convinced that the iPad could get a redesign to look more like the iPad Pro, or it could not,

01:42:23   and they could just keep on doing that Tim Cook thing where they keep it exactly the same shape,

01:42:28   but just very slowly integrate new features, very slowly. But I think eventually it's inevitable

01:42:35   because eventually Apple will want all the iPads to have the same connector.

01:42:39   Just could be a long time. - Yeah. And L asks,

01:42:44   "If the next iPhone does have flat sides like the iPad, do you think Apple would bring back

01:42:49   the bumper case?" I wish. - Why not? I hadn't really thought about it, but why not? That was

01:43:00   a great little case, and Steve Jobs said, "Yeah, you can have one." - Begrudgingly gave them away

01:43:07   for free. - Yeah. - Yeah. I loved that case. That was a good case. It was basically just a case that

01:43:15   went around the outside of the iPhone 4 and had no back on it. Really nice. - Yep. - So you could

01:43:24   still, it was still like, you kept the phone feeling thin, you still got to appreciate the

01:43:29   glass back. Yeah, I would like that a lot personally. - But we'll see. - People make them,

01:43:37   you know, like people make them for every iPhone, you know, but I would like to see one made by

01:43:44   Apple again if they went with that flat sides. You know, I was thinking like I am a case person,

01:43:48   but if that design of the new iPhone is as that people think it's going to be, or, you know, I

01:43:55   would, I feel like I would really hate to have a case on it because, you know, if it's anything

01:44:00   like the iPad design, I really love how that feels. It would be a shame, I think, to put a case on that

01:44:06   phone. - The beauty of having a bumper case is your, Apple has struggled with the iPhone 11,

01:44:16   right? That the, because Jamie's got one of these, the, the, she's got a purple iPhone, it looks great,

01:44:24   but she's got the clear case on it. The clear case is fine, but it's, I think, no, I think it's,

01:44:30   you're trading the niceness of seeing the color of the phone for the ugliness of having a big

01:44:35   case on it, and I think, I think the case is ugly, but the, the purple color is nice. A bumper design,

01:44:43   you know, of a case shows you the beauty of the color while still making it grippable, which is

01:44:50   one of the reasons you do it. Like, it's not super protective, but it, it, it's protective in the

01:44:55   sense that you can hold it in your hand without feeling like it's going to slip out. - It protects

01:44:59   the, the, the parts that are the most, uh, damage prone, which are the corners, like the corners

01:45:04   hitting. And also it keeps the screen in the back away from the ground. So if it does hit,

01:45:10   it doesn't like hit the ground, right? Um, if it's landing on a flat, flat surface, even if it went

01:45:16   straight down, because there's like a little lip that it creates. So it would be cool. I would like

01:45:21   it. I would like it. I mean, but there is that thing about like, well, if the flat sides are a

01:45:25   thing and you are still covering, might feel really nice. We'll see. At the end of the day,

01:45:30   like maybe I'll just throw a pop socket on the back and just leave it at that. Right. Like,

01:45:34   less of a risk of breaking my phone when I don't go out as much. So we'll see. All right. That is

01:45:41   it for this week's episode. If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the

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01:46:30   For upgrade plus subscribers. There's a get upgrade plus.com. Thanks so much to smile KiwiCo and hover

01:46:37   for their support of this show. And we'll be back next time until then. Oh, you can find this in a

01:46:43   bunch of places, six colors.com at J Snell. Uh, you can go to relay.fm/shows. If you want more

01:46:49   information about this episode, relay.fm/upgrades/310. I am iMyke, I M Y K E. Until then say goodbye,

01:46:56   Jason Snell. Goodbye Myke Hurley.