307: Big Sur Sosumi


00:00:00   [intro music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 307. It is still the Summer of Fun!

00:00:15   Summer of Fun!

00:00:16   And today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN, Mint Mobile, and Pingdom.

00:00:20   My name is Myke Hurley, I am joined by Mr. Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:25   Hi, Myke Hurley, it is the Summer of Fun. And we got something fun today,

00:00:29   because it's the Summer of Fun. Of course we do. We're planning, we're planning our attack for

00:00:34   Summer of Fun. Not going to reveal anything yet, but we got ideas, we got plans.

00:00:38   The Summer of Fun planning document is stretching out across the summer.

00:00:42   At the moment it runs until mid-August. I think we're going to need a lot longer than that.

00:00:47   We need more ideas.

00:00:48   We do. We do. I have a #snowtalk question from Arjun, who wants to know,

00:00:52   "Jason, where do you start reading a book? Do you look at the cover and all of the preamble,

00:00:58   or do you go straight to the first word of the first chapter,

00:01:00   and is this different for analog versus ebooks?"

00:01:03   I don't... okay. I start at the beginning and read to the end. And in terms of like the front matter,

00:01:13   I always want to have whatever, you know, I want to know what the setup is from the writer. So like

00:01:22   if there's a quote or something like that. I mean if it's like a list of acknowledgments,

00:01:25   I'm not going to read that. Things that are part of the work, I will absolutely do it.

00:01:29   And do I look at the cover? I mean, yeah, I've seen the physical object, or if it's a Kindle book,

00:01:35   I've at least ordered it. What I don't like about reading on the Kindle is sometimes it takes you...

00:01:40   it always takes you to the first page of the text, but you often will miss like the name of the

00:01:46   section or a quote that starts it or things like that. So I always sort of back up from the

00:01:51   beginning just to see if there's anything else there. But mostly it's pretty straightforward.

00:01:55   I will also say that I have a no maps policy. There are a lot of especially like fantasy novels

00:02:02   that have maps or genealogies in the back sometimes that happens too, or even in the front.

00:02:09   No maps, no genealogies. I'm not interested in your maps and genealogies. If you can't tell the

00:02:13   story without a map, you have failed as a writer. I don't want your map.

00:02:19   I know you're gonna hate this so much. I read the last line.

00:02:24   You do? Yeah, I do. You're like Harry in When Harry Met Sally, you gotta read the last line

00:02:31   in case something happens? No, it's because... I'm like, I get impatient or whatever, and it's

00:02:39   kind of like... the temptation is too strong to do it. Is this like differential privacy, where

00:02:46   you if you read the first line and the last line you can use AI to synthesize what happened in the

00:02:50   entire novel and you don't have to read it? It saves me the time of reading the books, yeah.

00:02:53   But like frankly, the last line so rarely gives away anything, right? Like it just, you know,

00:03:01   it doesn't really give anything away. There was a Harry Potter book, one of them, where it kind of

00:03:04   was like, oh whoops. But you know, I just, I feel better that way by doing it. But the real trick is

00:03:12   I don't read books, so I don't have to read the last lines. So there you go. Well yeah, that solves

00:03:18   that solves everything. And a lot of map fans in our chat room who are very angry with me, it was

00:03:23   like, look, I enjoy a fake map. I read the Strange Maps blog for a long time. A fake map, a fantasy

00:03:29   map, it's fun. Like I know where Mordor is, okay? I get it. For as much as people are angry at you,

00:03:35   it's like four times anger at me right now for the... Oh well, that's because you're a monster,

00:03:40   but I just want to be clear to all my map fans out there that fantasy maps are fun,

00:03:45   but they can't be essential. And when I haven't started the book yet, I'm not going to look at

00:03:50   the map. I'm not going to, I'm going to be like, oh right, oh wow, there's a map here. I better

00:03:53   get some geography lessons of this fantasy world before I start so I know where I am. It's like,

00:03:58   I don't want to do that. If I want to refer back later to the fantasy map, okay. I don't,

00:04:02   but I could. Why would anybody read the map before they read the book? I was thought the maps were

00:04:07   there for reference. Yeah, and even then I'm not a huge fan of it because like if you have to

00:04:13   consult a map, it, I think you failed as a writer. The genealogies are the one that really get me

00:04:18   though where it's, I was on a book episode of The Incomparable recently where people were talking

00:04:22   about how they had read the genealogy in order to understand how all the characters were related to

00:04:26   one another. And it was a book I enjoyed, but I said, no, are you kidding? No, I'm not going

00:04:31   to consult like reference material for the novel I'm reading. The storyteller really needs to do

00:04:37   their job in the novel and not say, oh, well, you don't know who this person is. Go look at the,

00:04:43   at the, at the back of the book. Also, I read it on a Kindle and so looking at the back of the book

00:04:48   is hard. If you would like to send in a possibly less controversial Snell Talk question. Just to

00:04:54   be clear, less controversial than where do you start reading a book where the clear answer is

00:04:59   at the beginning and then I go to the end and we both managed to mess that up. So, so thank you.

00:05:05   Thank you to our Snell Talk question. Thank you Arjun. #SnellTalk. You just send out a tweet and

00:05:10   it will be included in a list or you can use the command with the question mark Snell Talk in the

00:05:14   Relay FM members Discord. I have a very short article that I wanted to refer to, or at least

00:05:20   this is a short point from an article written at Bloomberg. Basically just stating Apple's current

00:05:27   policy for working from home. So as COVID-19 cases continue to spike throughout the world,

00:05:33   Apple has been re-closing retail stores. We've seen that like they opened a bunch in America,

00:05:37   closed them right down again. And now Apple are urging their retail employees to work from home

00:05:43   wherever possible. And you would say to yourself, how can a retail employee work from home? Apple's

00:05:49   created a kind of thing called a retail at home program where they're basically moving their

00:05:56   in-store retail stuff to online stuff, whether it be customer support or other services,

00:06:02   which are related to online. Because as you can imagine, Apple's need for online retail was

00:06:09   increased, right? Like everybody else, because if you can't go to the store, you've got to get the

00:06:12   stuff done somewhere. People are doing it online. So they're trying to remove people around for that.

00:06:18   And also they're not going to be doing a full return for US offices in 2020. So they do not

00:06:26   expect any point in 2020 to bring all of this stuff back to the office. I think this makes

00:06:31   sense for many reasons for lots of companies, but I think especially for Apple as a company that

00:06:37   wants to ensure that some people are able to be at the office. I think with a lot of companies,

00:06:42   it's like, we want some people to be back, so we'll bring those in. But for Apple, we spoke

00:06:48   about it before with the secrecy and the product design labs and stuff, that stuff has to be done

00:06:53   at Apple Park. So they want to keep everybody away to protect that small group to be able to be there.

00:06:58   CHUCK LYNNCZYK >> And they specifically said three months ago, because we're coming up to a new

00:07:04   analyst call and quarterly results, so get ready for that, that some groups were more

00:07:10   efficient remotely and some were less efficient remotely. And if you're trying to bring people

00:07:15   back who are important for your business and are less efficient remotely, what you want to do is

00:07:26   bring them back and one, give them room to spread out and separate them perhaps much more than they

00:07:32   would have been otherwise. And two, put them in an environment where they're not running into a lot

00:07:38   of other people. It's not just the space. It's also like if there are 80 people in Apple Park or

00:07:43   150 people in Apple Park versus like a thousand people in Apple Park, the chances of exposure

00:07:52   and things like that go way down as well. So that actually kind of makes sense. I would imagine the

00:07:56   people that have to be at Apple Park are going to come back to Apple Park and be spaced out,

00:08:00   presumably, and that'll be what it's like for a while.

00:08:05   MATT WILSON >> Yeah, I think that there's also a benefit to large companies being very upfront

00:08:11   with their employees if they've made these decisions, because it allows people to go to

00:08:14   other places. If your lease is being renewed and you only live in this city because you work in the

00:08:24   building which is close to it, maybe you could go back home for six months or something instead

00:08:29   and deal with it later on. You know what I mean? If you look at some of the larger cities where a

00:08:35   lot of tech companies are, rents are really high. And if you're only there because you work at the

00:08:41   company, then maybe giving you the ability to go somewhere else for a bit could be useful. So I

00:08:47   think it's good for companies to be pretty upfront about this stuff considering where we are.

00:08:50   CHUCK LYNN >> And who knows, maybe it will actually change Apple's corporate culture in some ways,

00:08:54   where some groups that were mandatory in person never go back to being mandatory in person.

00:09:00   MATT WILSON >> I think so. Did you use it out of the bottle? Right.

00:09:02   CHUCK LYNN >> I hope so, because as somebody who knows people who work at Apple and has talked to

00:09:07   people who are hiring managers at Apple in the past, some of their groups, their insistence on

00:09:12   them being in person don't make any sense. And some of them do and some of them don't. And I'm

00:09:18   a big fan of distributed workplaces and I think you get better people who are happier and more

00:09:24   efficient and they can handle forcing them to move to an incredibly high cost of living place

00:09:30   is not necessarily for a job that doesn't need to be done there is not great. So I hope that they

00:09:34   change their tune a little bit. MATT WILSON >> Upstream time.

00:09:37   I have a couple of acquisitions that Apple have made for Apple TV Plus or deals at least that

00:09:42   they've signed. They have signed a first look deal with Idris Elba. So there's not really much more

00:09:49   to say than that. So, you know, Idris at The Wire, Luther, he was in the Thor movies as well.

00:09:56   And also Apple have acquired another movie called Palmer starring Justin Timberlake,

00:10:02   Juno Temple, Academy Award nominee June Squibb and Alicia Wainwright. This one was actually announced

00:10:10   by Apple themselves. They had the website that I love, which is Apple-TV-Plus-Press.apple.com,

00:10:18   which looks like a fake website, but is a real website that Apple run and maintain. They announced

00:10:23   this one rather than where most of our headlines come from sites like Deadline or The Hollywood

00:10:28   Reporter or Variety, but this one came up from Apple. The movie stuff is particularly interesting

00:10:36   because it seems to actually be doing pretty well for them. So we've mentioned Greyhound a bit

00:10:42   recently. A report from Deadline is stating from their sources that Greyhound is reportedly Apple's

00:10:49   largest opening weekend success larger than any of the series or anything else that they've done

00:10:55   before with apparently over 30% of the viewers of Greyhound being new to Apple-TV-Plus.

00:11:01   - Yeah, how about that? That's really interesting that it had that appeal. And although,

00:11:08   I mean, this was a father's day movie, so this was not like a summer blockbuster per se,

00:11:15   but it's got a big name and it's got kind of a potential for broad appeal and all of that. And

00:11:19   I think it's interesting that it did well and they have other things in the works that are more

00:11:25   likely to be blockbusters down the road. But this is encouraging and we've seen from Netflix and,

00:11:32   you know, and I just watched Palm Springs on Hulu, like films on streaming services is a driver of

00:11:38   engagement just as much as TV shows are. So I think that's interesting.

00:11:43   - Switching gear to another company but on a similar vein. I wanted to just mention this

00:11:48   Netflix news that they are developing a spy series based on the Greyman book series. The reason I

00:11:56   thought this is interesting is because of how big they're going with it. So they're making a movie.

00:12:01   It's they're putting over $200 million into it. They have signed the Russo brothers to direct it.

00:12:08   This is the Russo brothers' first movie since Avengers. They have Ryan Gosling in the lead role

00:12:14   with the hopes of turning this into a franchise where Gosling will star as the Greyman in multiple

00:12:21   movies with Chris Evans as the quote unquote villain for this movie. Basically all of the

00:12:29   reporting is saying that Netflix are trying to build a James Bond-like franchise. I think of it

00:12:37   maybe more of like Bourne. - Sure. No, I think it's an interesting idea.

00:12:44   I just mentioned TV and film. I look at this and I think, great, Netflix is going to spend a huge

00:12:49   amount of money. They're going to have big stars. They're going to promote the heck out of it. It's

00:12:53   going to be a major motion picture action adventure tent pole kind of thing running on Netflix. Great.

00:12:59   I do have one question, which is when I think about films versus TV,

00:13:07   and we're talking about Netflix, which is both, I look at this and I think, okay, I get it. You're

00:13:14   spending $200 million and you're going to make a big blockbuster movie and you're going to put it

00:13:17   on your surface. If this is a franchise going forward, what's the right way to play it? And

00:13:25   I don't have an answer here, but I'm just saying what's the right way to play it? Because you could

00:13:28   do another one of these every two or three years and it would be like a Bourne or a James Bond.

00:13:36   Could you do something different? You're on streaming. So I also start to think,

00:13:41   could you do something more like, think about how BBC did Sherlock with Cumberbatch, where it was

00:13:48   like, all of those were like 90 minute long episodes. They're basically movies, but shorter

00:13:58   than two, two and a half hours, like so many theatrical movies. And they would do a handful

00:14:03   of them. And I look at this and I think, okay, well, if you want this to be a franchise Netflix,

00:14:07   is your next step, wait three years and get another movie for $200 million or is your next

00:14:13   step, you know, work up a two or three scripts and have two or three shorter runtime movies

00:14:22   that roll out over time because it allows you to, and I don't know the answer. Maybe the answer is

00:14:29   no, making people wait two years and then having a big blowout is the right way to do it. And I'm not

00:14:34   saying they should turn Ryan Gosling's spy franchise for Netflix into a TV show, but I'm

00:14:40   saying with streaming, there's like a middle ground, right? Like they could do, they could

00:14:44   break the rules of like, well, no, no, this is a feature. And, oh, well, this is a TV show.

00:14:49   You could, if you're Netflix, try to get a little creative and play with the space that's in between

00:14:56   those things. Cause I see no reason why they couldn't spend, you know, $200 million or $250

00:15:03   million on making, you know, two and the Russo brothers know about making two part movies, right?

00:15:09   Cause they just did it with Avengers. But even if they were standalone stories, like maybe,

00:15:15   maybe that would give you a better return or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe it's all about a huge

00:15:19   marketing blitz for a giant thing and everybody comes to watch that and then they go away for

00:15:23   two years. I just wanted to ask the question, cause I think it's interesting that there are

00:15:26   there are things in between what we think of as film and TV. And if you're ever going to explore

00:15:33   that a streaming service like Netflix is where you could do it. I say, I agree with your concept,

00:15:38   but I think for this specific project, I, for some reason, like the idea of it being a movie,

00:15:44   I can just call it a movie and being a big, like quote unquote, summer blockbuster, like Netflix's

00:15:50   attempt at a summer blockbuster. And also I would assume for similar reasons, like they maybe want

00:15:55   it, they're going to put all this money into it. Maybe they want to pick up some movie awards,

00:16:00   right? Which Netflix doesn't have so many of those. Yeah, but they could, but if they, again,

00:16:04   if they structured it, if they had two good story ideas, they could make two 90 minute movies with

00:16:10   two good story ideas and release them a year apart. And it would be more movies. I think they may do

00:16:16   that after the first one. So like if the first one works, for sure. You know, of course I'm not,

00:16:20   I'm, I'm not talking about the first one. I'm saying sort of like, if you, if this is a

00:16:23   franchise and you're going to continue it, how do you replicate it? Because the James Bond model,

00:16:28   the Bourne model is every few years you make a big Hollywood blockbuster, but you're Netflix.

00:16:33   You don't have to do it that way if you don't want to. You could release somewhat smaller

00:16:37   movies that were still super big, especially if you need to schedule Ryan Gosling, right?

00:16:42   Schedule him to shoot two of them back to back and roll them out over successive years. And you've got

00:16:46   a, a new gray man movie and you'd call it a movie, but it would be every year instead of every two

00:16:53   or three years. And is that a different model? I don't know. It's I'm just fascinated by the

00:16:57   options that these companies have and not everything is a TV show. Not everything is

00:17:01   a blockbuster movie, but sometimes those things are the right format. I just,

00:17:05   I looked at this and I thought, how do you build a franchise going for a film franchise on Netflix?

00:17:11   And what are your options? Cause I think they've got a lot of different options and, and maybe the

00:17:15   creators, right? Maybe the Russo brothers and Ryan Gosling and whoever else is producing this,

00:17:19   maybe it ends up being in their lap of, of where do they go next? And do they have a big idea that

00:17:25   requires two hours or do they have something that has a natural break in it where like Avengers

00:17:29   Endgame or an Avengers infinity war, you could actually like play into the fact that there's a

00:17:35   delay between and leave everybody hanging. It's up to them creatively to decide, but they've got,

00:17:41   I like that they've got the options in a way that the old kind of, it has to be a major motion

00:17:46   picture release that those rules don't necessarily apply at least as much to Netflix.

00:17:51   - Peacock premium has launched to everybody.

00:17:55   - Oh, has it? Yes.

00:17:57   - What are your experience so far?

00:18:00   - So this is the streaming service from NBC universal, which is owned by Comcast,

00:18:04   which means that it is a streaming service from a cable company, which is interesting because we view

00:18:08   streaming service as sort of the future. And you can cut the cord from your cable company

00:18:15   your TV provider, your traditional linear TV provider. And so what does it look like if you,

00:18:21   if it's a streaming service from the linear TV provider? And the answer is I got it free because

00:18:26   I have Comcast cable, which is I think just such a cable company move, right? They're like, oh yeah,

00:18:34   cord cutters, you just buy it and you got our streaming service. Great. There's a free tier.

00:18:39   And then there's like a $5 a month tier that is Peacock premium. And then there is a $10

00:18:45   a month tier called Peacock premium plus Myke. - Are you being serious?

00:18:50   - Premium plus yes. - It's called Peacock premium plus?

00:18:53   - Premium plus. And that's the ad free version of Peacock premium.

00:18:58   - Is that? I feel like we didn't know that, right? Cause we were calling it Peacock plus before,

00:19:02   which was the joke. - Yeah. I wasn't aware of it. It may have been out there, but I wasn't aware of

00:19:08   it until it launched and I clicked because I have Peacock premium. And what I found is that if I

00:19:12   would like to make the ads on Peacock go away as a Comcast subscriber, I can pay $5 a month

00:19:19   to upgrade to Peacock premium plus. And then I don't see the ads. And for everybody else,

00:19:25   it's whatever $10 a month without the ads, $5 a month with the ads.

00:19:29   - Why not just call it Peacock plus? Why premium plus? Silly.

00:19:33   - It's more, there's some interesting stuff in here. NBC has moved all of their

00:19:41   premier league content. So NBC has the premier league in the US. This is football/soccer,

00:19:48   everybody, British soccer, English soccer. - It's more than English.

00:19:53   - It's more popular as football than American football just, you know?

00:19:59   - Yeah. No, but it's English football. Cause it's literally, it's the English premier league.

00:20:03   It's only England and like sometimes a team in Wales. It's not even Scotland. They have

00:20:08   their own league. And I assume Northern Ireland has their own league, but I don't know. Anyway,

00:20:13   soccer talk. But in the US, NBC has got it. And what they did a few years ago is they,

00:20:19   I think last year, two years ago, they took all the games that were not on their network or on

00:20:25   their cable channel, NBC Sports Network. And they put it on a streaming service called NBC Sports

00:20:31   Gold, which costs $65 a year. And what they've done is they put all of that stuff into Peacock.

00:20:38   So, or Peacock Premium. And so what that means is essentially that I get all the soccer matches now

00:20:45   where I wasn't paying for NBC Sports Gold. So I only got what they chose.

00:20:48   And so that's kind of interesting. So they're pushing a lot of their sports stuff that they

00:20:54   used to have on these like more esoteric niche services. And they're just pushing them into

00:20:59   Peacock, which I think is the right thing to do, right? They want to load up on the content in

00:21:04   Peacock and have, that's the product they want to sell to people. So they pushed all their soccer

00:21:08   stuff in there. It's got a few features that I really like that other streaming services and

00:21:13   other apps have tried, but I like that they're giving it a go. They have this thing called

00:21:18   channels. That's not like Apple TV channels or Amazon channels. This is like television channels.

00:21:23   So it wants to replicate the experience of flipping to a channel and seeing what's on.

00:21:26   So it's a live stream channel. I have suspicions that they developed this technology because they

00:21:33   were going to launch with the Olympics this summer, which ended up not happening. But the idea there

00:21:38   that they would have these live, various live stream channels of different things happening

00:21:41   at the Olympics. And they don't have that, but they do have things. So there's like, there's a

00:21:46   Jimmy Fallon channel where it's just different tonight's show with Jimmy Fallon shows streaming

00:21:51   endlessly. Like there's a Bob Ross channel, The Painter. That's a good idea. Right? So you just

00:21:57   flip on, if you want to be calm and relax, you flip on the Bob Ross channel and it's just endless

00:22:01   streaming Bob Ross. There's an 80s rewind channel. It's got a bunch of 80s like comedies and

00:22:06   detective shows and stuff. There's an office channel. So you just flip it to the office

00:22:11   and it's episodes of the office forever. Fox did this for a while with their Simpsons app. They had

00:22:19   a Simpsons app where you could just stream and it was endless stream of the Simpsons too. So I think

00:22:24   it's a, I think it's a clever idea. And it's good for sports. Like they're using this for the soccer

00:22:29   stuff now. They use the channel interface for that. That's where you're watching the live

00:22:32   soccer match is you flip to that channel for that showing that match. So that's an interesting idea.

00:22:38   Tries to get to the thought of maybe sometimes you just want to kind of dial in a particular thing

00:22:44   and then just not fiddle with the interface. Like there's no autoplay or anything. It's just

00:22:50   literally, it just plays forever. I think that's an interesting thing to try. They have a bunch of,

00:22:55   or they've got some original content, but it seems kind of cobbled together from various parts

00:22:59   of the universal NBC empire. They've got this show, Brave New World. It sounds very much like

00:23:03   it was built for the sci-fi channel and then kind of repurposed into Peacock

00:23:06   premium. Although there is a show that I like AP bio, which was a sitcom on NBC and they written,

00:23:14   this is the story we talked about a while ago and got some good laughs out of it, which is that

00:23:17   NBC canceled it and then a Peacock saved it. And then there was a real question of like,

00:23:22   why did you not just come? Hello? Like have a conversation about maybe we should put this on

00:23:28   that. That's not how they did it. They just canceled it. And then they saved it from themselves.

00:23:32   It's so weird. So I'll watch that cause that's coming back this fall. And that's an original

00:23:38   that they're presumably just producing like they did for the network, except it's going to be on

00:23:42   Peacock instead. And I think a twist that will be fun when it happens is that Jimmy Fallon,

00:23:47   Seth Meyers, late night shows, which, you know, they record those at like five in the afternoon

00:23:52   in New York city. And then they air at night, 1130 and 1230 at night.

00:23:58   They are going to be released at eight Eastern. So in prime time. So if you're a fan of a late

00:24:03   night talk show and you don't want to stay up and watch it in late night, you can watch it

00:24:06   much earlier, like three and a half hours earlier on Peacock. However, they're not doing that yet

00:24:13   because of COVID-19. In fact, Fallon just went back to his studio last week, but it's with a

00:24:20   skeleton crew and the production logistics of getting that show ready to go by eight

00:24:25   instead of 1130 is a bit much right now. So that will, they say that will happen in the future,

00:24:32   but I think that's an interesting idea too. The idea that, you know, they've got this original

00:24:35   content that they've built up for linear broadcast. So it's like, well, that's got a time slot. It's

00:24:42   1130 and eight o'clock is for, you know, dramas or sitcoms or reality shows. And with Peacock,

00:24:51   NBC can say, or, or it's for Jimmy Fallon or it's for Seth Meyers, like whatever, whatever you want

00:24:55   to watch at eight o'clock at night or nine o'clock at night, go right ahead on Peacock. So interesting.

00:25:02   We'll see how that goes when they, when they try it out. And I got to use the apps. I use the iPad

00:25:07   app and I use the Apple TV app for Peacock. I was frustrated by the Apple TV app because they're

00:25:13   doing that thing so many, not as much as, as before. I think, I think this is, is I think

00:25:18   every Apple TV app developer has this great idea that they're going to reinvent how video works on

00:25:23   the Apple TV. And then they realize that they probably should stop fighting it and just do what

00:25:28   Apple does. But you know, here it is again, Peacock, like doesn't really use the UI conventions of

00:25:35   other Apple TV apps. So you kind of have to learn how to use it, which is super annoying.

00:25:40   I did find a funny quirk, which is in their movie interface on Apple TV. They have like movies that

00:25:47   are available. They show you the Rotten Tomatoes score, but only if it's good.

00:25:50   I mean, you can click through and you can see it for all of them, right? But on the top level,

00:25:58   where it's just the tiles, it'll be like Jurassic Park, 80%. Jurassic Park 2, also a movie.

00:26:04   Jurassic Park 3, yup, this is a movie. Or The Matrix, 98%. The Matrix 2, 64%. And The Matrix 3

00:26:13   is a movie that's available here. That made me laugh. Like somebody had that like,

00:26:17   "Don't show it if it's a bad review. We want them to click." Like, all right, okay, we can do that.

00:26:21   A bigger interface problem is that they don't have dates on the episodes. It doesn't say like

00:26:28   when this episode dropped. And that makes it hard to tell, is this week's, is this new?

00:26:34   Or is this today's? Is this today's Jimmy Fallon or yesterday's Jimmy Fallon? I don't know.

00:26:38   - I think that is particularly difficult when they do lean on late night talk shows.

00:26:43   - Right, well, this is an example where it's the worst, right? But actually, and it's worse than

00:26:49   that because they also sort their seasons with the first episode of the season at the top,

00:26:55   which means if you want to get to the, if you use that navigation to get to Jimmy Fallon or

00:26:59   Seth Meyers, you have to go in and scroll endlessly to the bottom because the most recent episode is

00:27:06   at the bottom of the list. It's season whatever episode 125 or something. So there's some clear

00:27:15   mistakes here where they, you know, I don't know. It's not as well thought as it should be. And

00:27:20   again, coronavirus related stuff and they were planning on the Olympics and they've had to

00:27:26   scramble and I get all of that, but there's like a lot of questionable decisions in here. I imagine

00:27:31   they'll work it out as they go. - Coronavirus isn't the reason that you slit your episodes that

00:27:36   way. - Well, no, but I'm saying that their development team could have been quite disrupted

00:27:41   by it, right? Like, and they ended up having to ship something that was not as far along as they

00:27:45   would have liked because they had to send their people home. And, you know, I'm willing to give

00:27:50   them a little bit of a break because their entire strategy had to change because the Olympics got

00:27:54   moved and presumably their development team got sent back to their houses. But yeah, it's a great

00:28:02   example of somebody making a very simple UI decision saying, "Oh yeah, we'll just sort the

00:28:07   episodes this way," and not thinking through what that meant in terms of something like a talk show

00:28:13   where, like, because I went there and I was like, "Oh, I hear Jimmy Fallon went back to the studio

00:28:18   this week. I want to see that episode." And I couldn't tell what episode it was, when it was

00:28:24   from, and when I went to get the definitive answer, which was to look in the list of episodes,

00:28:30   it was at the very bottom of a very long scrolling list, which, you know, this is all fixable, but

00:28:35   it's dumb. So it's a work in progress, Peacock Premium, and when, if there's a show that I'm

00:28:41   actually going to watch on it, like AP Bio, when that comes back, I'm going to watch the

00:28:45   English soccer on it now, but when AP Bio comes back, I might sign up for Peacock Premium Plus

00:28:51   so I don't have to see their stupid ads. - This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile,

00:28:57   the folks who can cut your wireless bill to $15 a month with their futuristic approach to wireless.

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00:30:00   You can also use your own phone of any Mint Mobile plan. Keep your same phone number or your existing

00:30:06   contacts, and just ditch your old wireless bill and start saving with Mint Mobile. Jason,

00:30:11   I believe that Mint sent you a care package that included a SIM. I want you to just ask what that

00:30:16   experience is like. Yeah, it actually reminded me of my very nice experience I had when I would

00:30:21   travel to Ireland or the UK, and I used a prepaid wireless there, and it comes in a little—it's like

00:30:27   a little credit card kind of thing, and it's got a SIM card, and the SIM card is perforated at the

00:30:34   different sizes of SIM card, which for a modern iPhone, you want the smallest of those sizes.

00:30:39   Oh, that's good. Yeah, so you can—if you've got an older phone that's got a bigger one,

00:30:42   you perforate it at a different place, and it goes in that tray, SIM tray. So it's very clever,

00:30:48   and I put it in an iPhone that was actually—it's actually my iOS 14 test iPhone, and so popped it

00:30:56   in there and went to their website and put in the little code that's on the back of the card,

00:31:00   and it goes great, and then the carrier shows up, Mint Mobile shows up on the iPhone. It was

00:31:05   super easy to do, and they have an app too, but I actually just use their website, and you put in

00:31:10   the code on the card, and that's it. Now, if you're moving your phone, you do—there's a little bit

00:31:14   more to do in order to move your phone number. In this case, they just generated—they told me—they

00:31:19   said, "Where are you?" and then they generated a phone number based on my area code, which was

00:31:24   super convenient, and that was it. I had a new phone with a new phone number.

00:31:27   Oh, that's nice that you can just say, like, "Give me a number with this code."

00:31:31   I like that. That's very clever. Yeah, and I'm now thinking that, you know,

00:31:36   should I have made it some, you know, like a New York area code or something so I could be like—

00:31:40   Or like Alaska or something.

00:31:42   Yeah, oh, that's right, or Hawaii, right? Aloha means you're calling me on my Mint Mobile phone,

00:31:48   but I didn't do that. I just have a 415 because that's the area code of record here in the Bay

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00:32:06   now. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com/upgrade. Our thanks to Mint Mobile

00:32:12   for their support of this show and all of Relay FM. We knew it was coming, and it is here. Apple

00:32:19   News Plus audio stories. There was a few things related to Apple News in the audio department that

00:32:27   happened in the middle of last week. The most interesting one is their podcast, which we'll

00:32:33   talk about in a bit, but I'll give everybody the rundown of what they're doing here. Apple News Plus

00:32:40   audio stories is available. It was available with iOS 13.6, which I expect will be the final point

00:32:47   released to iOS 13, but who knows at this point? You never know. You never know. Around 10 stories

00:32:53   per week... Oh, sorry. It's 20. Around 20 stories per week are going to be professionally narrated

00:33:01   by professional voice actors, as Apple has said. Voice actors. You can switch between reading and

00:33:09   listening at any point. If you're reading an article that has the narration, you can choose

00:33:14   to pick it up as audio or vice versa and go back to where you were in the story, which is just

00:33:19   nicely done. Didn't have to do that. I don't think that was required, but that's good functionality.

00:33:23   US only for the moment, which is peculiar to me because Apple News Plus is only available in

00:33:31   three markets, or four markets, which is US, UK, Australia, and Canada. I don't understand why they

00:33:37   haven't made it available everywhere. I would understand if there's maybe some publications

00:33:43   that they only have in one market, but surely there is a crossover for at least some of them.

00:33:49   Considering everybody is paying the same amount if they're a subscriber, I don't understand why

00:33:55   they wouldn't have either A) made it available or B) it's only four markets. You don't have an option

00:34:04   for everyone. That's just a weird wrinkle in this to me. I think that it potentially shows

00:34:13   that Apple's hesitancy with anything News Plus related because it really seems like it's not

00:34:21   gone the way that they wanted. That's peculiar. I find that strange. Especially because Apple News

00:34:27   Today, the podcast hosted by Shamita Basu and Duarte Gialdino, who are named, they're

00:34:34   art workers in the show, but they came from a WNYC show to this. They are known as producing

00:34:42   daily news shows. It's hosted every weekday. We'll talk about that more in a bit.

00:34:48   That's available everywhere except, well not except, but in the Apple News app. It's only

00:34:57   available in the US, but it's on Apple podcasts and podcast apps around the world.

00:35:03   So I think there's some elements to that, which we'll get to in a minute as to why that's the

00:35:08   case. Apple News has also been added to CarPlay, which makes sense to support the audio features

00:35:14   that they've added. And then the last component of the Apple News Plus stuff is a new focus on

00:35:20   local news. It's currently in a handful of major US markets and features "a diverse collection

00:35:27   of local publishers, including a major newspaper in each region covering sports, culture, dining,

00:35:34   weather, politics," that kind of stuff, which is local to those areas. There is still going

00:35:39   to be curation from Apple News editors, and there'll be an element of personalization for

00:35:44   everybody. What do you think about the local news pivot? It's an interesting idea. I have the same

00:35:51   concerns I've always had about Apple News Plus, which is that I'm not sure it solves the problem

00:35:59   of how you fund journalism. Modern journalism has lots of issues of how the money comes in now that

00:36:08   they're not getting, newspapers especially, are not getting the money that they used to from

00:36:12   advertising and print classified ads and things like that. And it's been a decades-long issue for

00:36:20   local journalism. And I think that Apple News Plus, there are scenarios where Apple News Plus

00:36:25   could help. I'm not sure if they've got it here, because it sounds like they're basically making

00:36:30   a partner. So in the Bay Area, it seems to be that the San Francisco Chronicle is their partner.

00:36:35   The Chronicle is presumably getting money for this. And then they're backfilling with other

00:36:40   stuff, you know, sports blogs for the region's sports, and other local blogs and things.

00:36:47   I don't know. I feel like there's some aspect of Apple News Plus that might actually

00:36:54   benefit local news, but I'm not sure this is it. I'm not sure that this really solves anything,

00:37:03   because in the end, you're getting some curation. That's nice as an Apple News user.

00:37:08   But in terms of who's supporting the reporting that's going into generating the data sources

00:37:13   for the curation, I'm not entirely sure. This is something I half-joked about in a previous

00:37:18   episode about how if Apple really cared about local journalism, it should fund local journalism.

00:37:25   I'm not sure this is the way, you know, based on what we know about Apple News Plus especially,

00:37:30   I'm not sure this actually does that. And that's the problem. I would love Apple to

00:37:38   more actively fund local journalism and then have that result pour into Apple News Plus.

00:37:46   But they aren't doing that. And I understand there are business reasons why that may not work for

00:37:51   them either. But I'm not sure like the San Francisco Chronicle is going to ultimately

00:37:56   benefit from being the hub of content at the center of the Bay Area regional for Apple News

00:38:03   Plus. So file it under the same thing as all the other stuff, which is I'm having a hard time

00:38:10   seeing how Apple News Plus benefits publishers. I think it's at least like something else to try,

00:38:18   like in a way that maybe a lot of local news agencies do not have good monetization strategies.

00:38:27   And like this may be a better thing for local news than the large publications.

00:38:34   - The problem is that a regional, anytime you've got, so they're talking about like

00:38:39   US cities here, right? So you've got the newspaper in the city. I mean,

00:38:42   they probably have a subscription plan for access. They probably have a paywall on a subscription

00:38:46   plan. I'm not sure getting your local people to sign up for Apple News Plus and get your newspaper

00:38:52   that way is remotely as good as getting them to sign up for you directly. - Well, that's always

00:38:58   like that's the same in every instance. - That's Apple News Plus, which is why I've said before,

00:39:04   and I'm actually kind of serious here is the solution to good local news is somebody needs

00:39:11   to put money into good local news. And if Apple thinks that Apple News is a strategic thing,

00:39:16   and I would actually argue that if Apple felt like one of the ways that it wanted to leave the world

00:39:22   better than it found it was by informing its people about what's going on in their regions,

00:39:29   that this could be a fundamental like tenet of Apple and Apple News, where Apple is

00:39:35   more aggressive about funding local news organizations, whether it's the existing

00:39:41   ones or new ones in order to generate content that feeds into Apple News Plus. But what they're doing

00:39:47   is they're trying to kind of like have existing organizations subvert their own business model

00:39:52   for Apple's model, which is really rigged to benefit Apple. And I don't think it works. So

00:39:58   that's the problem I have with it is that there is a solution to be had here, but it doesn't seem

00:40:03   like Apple is actually trying to solve it. And this doesn't feel to me, it feels better than what

00:40:07   they were doing before, but I'm not sure it actually solves any of the fundamental problems

00:40:10   with Apple wanting to insert itself as a middleman between the publishers and the readers.

00:40:17   Will Barron So I'll ask, though,

00:40:19   is there like a good business case to doing that funding local news? Like what will Apple get out

00:40:27   of it? I mean, I could say if Apple funded local news, it would get content out of it for Apple

00:40:35   News, and the Apple News content could be very good, local and national and regional news. But

00:40:40   it would also be saying, we're also improving the quality of journalism in the United States,

00:40:45   let's say, because everything they do for Apple News seems to be just in the United States.

00:40:48   But it would have to be kind of a long game, kind of a, you know, we're going to do this because

00:40:54   it's right, and we're going to figure it out as we go, and we're going to build a business here.

00:40:57   And honestly, Apple News Plus is not that. Apple News Plus is a somewhat cynical aggregation play

00:41:03   for Apple, where they want to take a big chunk of money off the top and figure that the accumulated

00:41:10   glow of being inside an Apple app is going to benefit these news sources. And while most of

00:41:16   these news sources don't have very good apps and don't have very good websites, Apple News isn't a

00:41:21   very good app either. So, you know, just to call it what it is, this is Apple trying to sneak money

00:41:27   out of a market that is dying and desperately trying to find a new business model. And it feels

00:41:33   to me and has felt all along a bit like what Apple's trying to do is claim that they're coming

00:41:38   in to save journalism. But what they really want to do is pull money out of the reader's pockets

00:41:46   and not share much of it with local journalism. And that's why Apple News, that's why I think

00:41:51   ultimately unless they really rethink it, Apple News is a failure.

00:41:53   All right, let's talk about Apple News today, which is the podcast, because that's maybe even

00:41:58   more interesting to me. And you, we've been talking for a long time, what are Apple going

00:42:02   to do in the podcasting space? We mentioned the Zane Lowe interview series, and that was something

00:42:08   they were bringing over. But that was like a half step. This is a full on step. This is a brand new

00:42:13   show daily, right? Like, so this is a big production. Now, we're wondering how are Apple

00:42:21   going to do this type of content? Are they going to make exclusive content and be like Spotify?

00:42:26   Are they going to embrace the open web and give it to everybody? Let's say it's a little bit in

00:42:32   the middle. Apple are saying this is available on Apple podcasts. That's the only place that they're

00:42:37   going to say it. That's not a surprise to me, right? That even if Apple made something that

00:42:42   was available everywhere, that when they promote it, when they talk about it, they say it's on

00:42:47   Apple podcasts. I mean, why not? Because so much of the podcast ecosystem just says that anyway,

00:42:53   at the moment, right? Like, I don't have any issue personally with them choosing to market

00:43:00   their show as saying it's on Apple podcasts. But it is not exclusive to Apple podcasts. As it

00:43:06   stands right now, it's not the only place you can get it. It is searchable and subscribable in every

00:43:12   third party app that I've tried. Pocket Casts, Overcast, Castro. You can search for Apple news

00:43:17   today, find it, subscribe, you get the episodes because it is based on RSS. Apple have done a

00:43:26   little work to obscure the feed. It's not in like the usual places that you would find it when you

00:43:32   subscribe in the podcast app or iTunes or whatever. But it is based on an open RSS feed. Third party

00:43:40   apps have been able to add it to their directories. You can subscribe and you can listen. So they may

00:43:48   not want to encourage you to listen to apps that aren't Apple podcasts, but you can, which I think

00:43:54   is a pretty good compromise personally, because they're not warping what it is to be a podcast,

00:44:02   but they are using their marketing to promote their own service. I think that's

00:44:09   a fair enough compromise. What do you think?

00:44:13   Yeah, I mean, Apple is always going to promote Apple podcasts. I would say,

00:44:19   I don't know to what degree they're hiding the RSS feed here, but like they shouldn't try to hide.

00:44:27   Thanks for it. And I've seen reporting from lots of people that like the RSS feed is not in the

00:44:33   typical place in the Apple podcast direction. Like it's possible to get the feeds out and you

00:44:37   kind of can't do that. Okay. Well, I mean, that's my only, my only real complaint is that if they

00:44:43   are also making this available to other podcast apps, there should be some link somewhere. If

00:44:47   there is then great, there should be some link somewhere on their website when they're talking

00:44:51   about this, where maybe it's a footnote, which is, you know, or any other podcast app using this feed,

00:44:58   but they're primarily promoting Apple podcasts because, you know, step one is, yeah, it's not

00:45:03   just an Apple podcast. Great. Step two is you should probably not try to hide it in the, you

00:45:09   know, in the bathroom, uh, behind a locked door in a filing cabinet with a sign on the door that

00:45:15   says beware of the leopard leopard. That's a reference. Um, right. Where it's like, no, no,

00:45:21   uh, it is on Apple podcasts secretly. It's also elsewhere is not a great look. I think that they

00:45:27   should, should, like I said, put it in a footnote somewhere. Don't try to hide it. Yeah. I would

00:45:31   prefer them to do that, but better than, than wiring it into Apple podcasts and then not having

00:45:36   it be available in any other app. Yes, absolutely better than that. And that's kind of one of the

00:45:40   very conceivable things that we expected them to do. Right. But I am actually really happy with the

00:45:46   fact that they have done whatever work they needed to do to create a podcast, which is delivered via

00:45:52   RSS. They did that now this, this didn't happen like within a week, like Apple node had been doing

00:45:57   this for a while. They could have very easily made the whatever, not, but they very well conceivably

00:46:03   could have done whatever they needed to do to make this exclusive to them. But they didn't do that.

00:46:08   Um, you know, I saw a lot of technology outlets reporting on this saying it was exclusive to

00:46:12   Apple podcasts, which kind of irked me a little bit. Cause like it wasn't hard to do the work

00:46:18   to see that that wasn't the case. Um, but people just kind of read the press release and then just

00:46:23   report it on it that way. Like that kind of stuff frustrates me. I find in a lot of technology press

00:46:29   to reporting on the podcast industry to be pretty bad, honestly, uh, which is just a little beef that

00:46:35   I'm picking here for no, no particular reason. Um, but there's a lot of like, we got a press

00:46:40   release. We're just going to say what the press release said and move on when I feel like it

00:46:44   could, this stuff could be, should be covered a little better, a little more nuance. Anywho,

00:46:49   I listened to the podcast itself. Jason. It's actually pretty good. Like I, uh, I enjoyed the

00:46:56   variance of the topics. It is too us focused for me. Um, especially because this is this like,

00:47:03   isn't region locked. You can get it anywhere. I would love to see them build it out a little more.

00:47:08   Uh, but it so far has been pretty us focused. Uh, the stories that they get into in detail

00:47:16   are in Apple news. So they, they do a kind of like a headline rundown at the start where they

00:47:22   don't particularly talk about any specific news story, but they'll cover, like they'll talk about

00:47:28   briefly like what's going on in the world. But then they, they link to and talk about the stories

00:47:34   that they talk about in depth. They, they link to Apple news stories, which makes sense. It's

00:47:38   like a vertical integration. You can tell they've hired professionals across the board. It is

00:47:44   entertaining. It's informative and it's produced well, in my opinion, they use a lot of audio clips

00:47:49   and they mixed in really well. Um, they do that typical, like, uh, mainstream podcast sound design

00:47:55   of there always being music playing, but I don't like that, but they do a good job of it. I think,

00:48:01   um, like it's not, it's not really in your face, but there is a little bit of that in there where

00:48:07   they have music interstitials and they have sometimes music beds and they're not constant,

00:48:12   but they're there. Right. But I think that the sound design is good. I think that they've done

00:48:18   an, in my opinion, an especially good job considering, I bet there's a studio they're

00:48:22   supposed to be recording in that they're not. Right. And, uh, so I've been, I follow both of

00:48:28   the hosts on Twitter now and they've been posting like lots of pictures of, uh, of how, of like

00:48:34   their setups and stuff, which I think is fun. You know, in general, I'm, I'm kind of just pleased

00:48:40   that they are allowing Shimita and Duarte to be public figures that produce the show and they,

00:48:49   they actually have interactions with each other. Like they're not just reading news stories. Like

00:48:53   it feels like there is an actual personality to the program, which I think is important.

00:49:00   And I'm pleased that they are doing that because I don't think I could have told you that's exactly

00:49:06   what Apple would have done if I would have known this project was going to exist. Right.

00:49:10   Yeah. It's not the Apple, old Apple approach, which would have been nameless, faceless,

00:49:16   you know, again, kind of extruded from out of Apple here as a product. And instead it's,

00:49:21   this is a product that needs personalities and, and that it's going to live or die based on that.

00:49:26   And, and it's Apple is the brand, but you know, that's not how a podcast that was not driven by

00:49:32   personalities like that would not be a successful podcast. So it's, they they've hired people who

00:49:37   know what they're doing clearly here. It was really interesting to me that they basically

00:49:41   wholesale hired a team from WNYC. I find that to be very smart, honestly, like just, just get some

00:49:50   people that know what they're doing. If you want to do this, like don't rebuild the wheel, right?

00:49:54   Let them do this. And I can tell you as somebody who has worked in the media for a long time,

00:49:59   that, um, Apple coming to you and in the media, so economically pressured as we've been saying

00:50:06   all along here, it's, it's a, has been a tough couple of decades in the media and you have the

00:50:10   world's richest company roll in and say, uh, we want to set this up and we'll hire you.

00:50:15   Like those people are getting probably better jobs, better pay, better benefits,

00:50:20   better working conditions. Like this is one of those things where

00:50:26   being hired by a giant company to do essentially what you already do is that's pretty, that's a

00:50:34   pretty sweet deal. It's kind of hard to turn that down. So it's, it's, it's not surprising that they

00:50:38   were able to kind of go in and just hire those people away. It's also probably the right thing

00:50:41   to do. You're right. Because that's the kind of content they want. Yeah. Don't just, if you can

00:50:46   find people that are already doing it, then go for that. I think it makes sense. I'm going to keep

00:50:50   this in my rotation. I, and I've been, I listened to a couple of episodes so I could be prepared for

00:50:55   the show, but today's I was like, I want to hear about that. It was about John Lewis. And I was

00:51:01   like, I don't, I don't, I feel like I haven't had much exposure to him as being someone from the

00:51:05   United Kingdom, but like, I'm kind of aware of him and some of the stuff that he's done. But I was

00:51:10   like, no, I would like a little bit more background. And it gave me that. Uh, so I'm going to keep the

00:51:15   show around and, uh, I, I've, cause I have genuinely been enjoying it. So I actually think

00:51:20   that they've done a very good job and I'll at least say that I'm happy that they didn't go for

00:51:26   the complete like bad timeline with how Apple would produce, uh, like podcasts of their own. So,

00:51:34   you know, like, you know what I mean? Like this isn't completely locked down. It's locked down

00:51:38   a little bit, but it's locked down in a way that I'm personally comfortable with like market it

00:51:42   however you want, but just let me get it the way that I want and don't completely ruin what open

00:51:47   RSS is all about. And I'm, I'm pleased that they've taken that, um, they've taken that,

00:51:54   that slant on it for now, at least that they continue that way. Yeah. This episode is brought

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00:53:24   So Mr Jason Snell, it is time for our Summer of Fun topic today. We've been talking quite a bit

00:53:35   about macOS Big Sur recently and we are this time, and next time actually, we're going to talk about

00:53:40   Big Sur during the Summer of Fun because it's a fun operating system. But along with the vast

00:53:46   visual changes in Big Sur, which we've been talking about and many of our podcasting

00:53:50   colleagues have been talking about, Apple also completely changed the typical sounds you hear

00:53:57   when using the operating system. So considering this is a podcast, which is an audio medium,

00:54:03   why don't we review those sounds? Yeah, this would be less useful if I wrote a story about this on

00:54:10   six colors, right? Yes. Like let me describe how the sounds have changed and you can picture it in

00:54:17   your mind or listen to it in your mind, how you imagine this. Or we could use a medium like a

00:54:24   podcast and actually play the sounds. So for the record, these are found in /system/sounds and

00:54:32   /system/library/components/coreaudio.component/sharedsupport/systemsounds.

00:54:38   Yep, yep. So /system/sounds is where your beeps are and then you can do custom beeps like my voice

00:54:45   that says beep from Soundmaster. I think that's user directory library sounds, I think is where

00:54:53   you put those. But the defaults are in /system/sounds and then the other sound effects are found in that

00:55:00   long chain that's down in components, coreaudio.component, and that's where you get things

00:55:04   like emptying the trash. Those live in there. Now there's been lots and lots of sounds that

00:55:11   have changed but I don't think we're going to listen to all of them, right?

00:55:13   Yeah we are, Myke. We're listening to all of them. Oh okay, we got all of them? Great,

00:55:18   then let's go for it. All the ones that I could find. Oh okay, fine. So we're going to start with

00:55:22   the beeps and then we're going to move on to a few. Not a lot of the /system/sounds have changed

00:55:27   but some of the most obvious ones have but Apple has redone all the beeps and what's really

00:55:32   interesting in my research for this is Apple has redone all the beeps without changing their file

00:55:38   names but they have changed the names in the sound control panel which is super weird, right? So they

00:55:45   have... What does that mean? Yeah, so I'll give you an example. Okay. So there used to be an alert

00:55:52   called pop. If you go to system preferences and click on sound and choose an alert sound,

00:55:56   there used to be an alert called pop. It's now... And the file, the corresponding file in

00:56:04   /system/sounds was pop.wav or pop.aiff. I don't remember. It's pop was the name of it.

00:56:09   Now there is still a file called pop. It has a different sound in it

00:56:16   and the name pop doesn't appear in the system sound control panel anymore. Instead,

00:56:25   the name bubble plays the sound file called pop.

00:56:29   You're asking yourself why not just rename the files and have those names appear rather than

00:56:45   using the old... Rather than changing presumably the system preferences app somehow to map new

00:56:51   names to old file names and my answer is I don't know. I guess they had a reason. I can only assume

00:56:58   that there's some compatibility thing, right? Or like it's hard coded into something somewhere and

00:57:02   it was just... Yeah, if you've got an app or a script or something that says play the sound file

00:57:07   pop, it'll play it even though now in the UI it says bubble. That's hilarious. But I don't know if

00:57:14   I write a script and say play bubble. Will it play pop or will it fail? I don't know. Something to

00:57:21   check in the betas I guess. So are we gonna... We're gonna compare the old to the new? Is that

00:57:27   how we're gonna do this? We are. We are gonna do that. Thank you. Are you ready? Yeah. All right.

00:57:32   So we're gonna start with Catalina and this is a sound called basso and it will be followed by

00:57:42   Big Sur where basso has been renamed mezzo. Ready? Yeah. Here's basso. How'd that sound?

00:57:52   That's my error sound. Okay, get ready for basso mezzo. Oh no. No, that's not the same.

00:58:01   It's mezzo now. It's not basso anymore. It's mezzo. Because what I like about basso is in my mind my

00:58:06   computer is going ah. Right? That's what I like about basso. Now it's going ah. You see, I don't

00:58:11   like that. Can you play it at one again for me? Get basso. Mezzo. No, I don't like it. For some

00:58:19   reason mezzo sounds like the older sound. That one sounds like it came from like the 80s or something.

00:58:27   I don't like that one. All right, should we move on? Yeah. I mean, I kind of agree with you that

00:58:35   the use of basso is to get your attention is like oops something bad happened and the new one's like

00:58:39   like I guess it sort of sounds sad trombone like a little bit but yeah it's not aggressive enough I

00:58:45   think. All right, here's a sound called blow except in Big Sur it's called breeze. Okay.

00:58:53   So they're related. Some of these are related. Yeah. Where it looks like they're having fun

00:58:59   like basso and mezzo, blow and breeze. Others don't make any sense at all. So anyway, here's

00:59:04   blow in Catalina and here's breeze in Big Sur. Oh, that's much nicer. You like that? Yeah.

00:59:14   I like the breeze. Less of blowing on the on a bottle. Yeah. Which is what blow definitely is.

00:59:20   Yeah, I don't really like the blow sound very much but I actually really like the breeze sound. I

00:59:25   think that's just a good sound. That's a good interface sound. All right, so that's a thumbs up.

00:59:30   That's a thumbs up. Okay, so they're one for two now. One up, one down. Just to confirm,

00:59:36   these sounds, do they all have a place in the operating system or you just choose for your error

00:59:44   sound? I think you choose for your error sound. Although there may be apps that play them as well.

00:59:51   Right, but these are all available to you and in certain instances you might hear one or the other.

00:59:55   I mean, and there are some that are specific that we'll get into later on, but the error sounds

01:00:00   mostly like you can choose them. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, that makes sense. All right, here we go.

01:00:06   This is this one is called bottle not to be confused with blow. Now maybe this we understand

01:00:11   why they renamed these, although not why they renamed them only in one place and not in the

01:00:15   files themselves. This is the Catalina bottle and then it'll be followed by pebble, which is what

01:00:20   bottle is now called in Big Sur. Bottle, pebble. I like that because pebble sounds like you're

01:00:29   dropping a stone into the water and it sounds quite like bottle but it's better. But more.

01:00:38   Yeah, more texture, more nuance. I agree. I think that's actually a nice thing about it.

01:00:42   Can I hit pebble again? Sure, you want to hear the new pebble. Here it is.

01:00:47   Yeah, I like that. That's a good one. That's a good sound. All right, that's a like. Okay,

01:00:54   Apple's up two to one now in the new sound derby. This turns into a different kind of game than I was

01:01:02   expecting but I'm enjoying it. Okay, this is a sound called frog except in Big Sur it's called

01:01:10   jump. That kind of makes sense, right? So here's frog. This is a good one and here's jump.

01:01:18   Oh, no, that's not enough. There's not enough noise there. I don't particularly like frog,

01:01:29   right? It's fine. I don't particularly like it but there's just not enough noise in jump. It's

01:01:36   too short. I like frog. I actually use frog in one of my scripts to say the script is done

01:01:41   and I've used it another. I use it a lot because it's really not obtrusive. I'm worried that jump

01:01:52   is so not obtrusive as to have become invisible. I think that that's a similar problem with mezzo.

01:01:59   Like jump and mezzo, they are you might not even really notice them. Yeah, it doesn't

01:02:05   alert sound work if you aren't actually alerted by it. If an alert sound falls in the forest

01:02:14   but there was nobody around to hear it, right? That's the problem. Sure. Yeah, that could be.

01:02:21   All right, this is a sound called funk. However, breaking news here. Breaking news in Big Sur. It's

01:02:32   called funky. Well, okay, I'm expecting more if you're going from funk to funky.

01:02:38   One letter more at least. Okay, here we go. Here's funk and then funky.

01:02:47   Okay, that's too much more. Too much more. Okay. Funk I feel like is a pretty classic one.

01:02:53   Right? I feel like I hear maybe funk is mine. Yeah, funk is mine. I use funk for an alert one,

01:02:59   my typical alert sound. There was one that I said already that I used for. I must use it

01:03:04   somewhere else because I hear it a lot. But funk I've just looked now. That's the sound that I hear

01:03:08   and that's a good one. It's like a dunk. That feels pretty classic to the Mac for me.

01:03:16   Funky is too much, I think. I think there's too much noise going on there.

01:03:19   They've added a little bit. It's sort of a single blip versus this like little mini music

01:03:27   composition. And as with frog, I kind of just want it to be a blip. So we got a dislike for that. Uh

01:03:35   oh. Apple's down now two to three. Uh oh. It's not trending well. Okay, we're moving on to a

01:03:43   sound called glass, which has been renamed crystal in big sur. So from glass to crystal,

01:03:52   you can see the family resemblance. Here they are. Good. Yeah. Yep. It retains the good part of

01:04:02   glass, but makes it sound more modern. As Joe Steele in the discord says, more expensive sound.

01:04:09   And I would agree. It sounds like crystal was a more expensive sound. Yeah. We fancied that,

01:04:14   that glass sound up. I like that it is, I never really liked that glass sound and it's because

01:04:20   it's, it's maybe a little too unpleasant and, and, and jarring. But then again, I also leave the room

01:04:26   when somebody else's emptying the dishwasher. Cause I find those sounds really unpleasant.

01:04:30   And crystal is better because it's a little less of that, a little less jarring, I think.

01:04:37   And it's more expensive. It's more expensive name. All right. Here, here is one that I really enjoy

01:04:42   what Apple did with the naming system because it's a sound called hero. And in big sur,

01:04:50   it's called heroin. Good. That's good. I like that. That's clever. Okay. Well,

01:04:55   let's the name naming convention. Let's see what they did to the sound. Let's see what they did to

01:05:00   the sound. Here they are. Ooh. Ooh. Can I hear those again? Okay. All right. So it's basically

01:05:09   the same sound, but there's a little prelude to the sound. I didn't know that alert sounds needed

01:05:14   a little, a little percussive roll in, but I think I like it. Here we go. Ooh. Bloop. I like that one.

01:05:24   I do too. It's a little saucy. It's a little personality. It's like, "Hey, you know that hero

01:05:31   sound. Well, I'm going to jazz it up a little bit." It's kind of got like an island feel to it.

01:05:36   You know? Yep. It's like we're taking the hero to the Caribbean or something.

01:05:40   I like it. It's good. She's a heroine now, but yeah, exactly right. Well, I mean,

01:05:48   like you took hero to the Caribbean and now it's heroin. Yeah. Okay. Our next one is called Morse,

01:05:56   like Morse code. Yep. And it has been replaced with a sound called ping. No, pong. Oh, sorry.

01:06:06   Sound called pong. Yeah. I know why you did that because the next one's called ping.

01:06:09   Next one is called ping and there's also a pop. There are these names. I mean, I don't want to be

01:06:15   the person at Apple who has to name sounds. Okay. Cause it's hard. And then people like us make fun

01:06:21   of them, but still it is worth making fun of. Okay. So it's Morse, which becomes pong, not to

01:06:25   be confused with ping, which became something else. And we'll get to that. Here is Morse

01:06:29   followed by pong in Big Sur. Okay. Play those again. It's a little more poppy. I actually

01:06:38   think it's better because you can miss Morse, but pong, you can hear it. It's audible.

01:06:45   It's still not a good, like it's for me, like it's not a great sound, but it is better than the one.

01:06:48   But it's an improvement. I think that's all we're really measuring here is did you,

01:06:52   did you improve these sounds? For some people. Uh, so, okay. All right. Now we're going to move

01:06:57   on to ping, which is not pong and has been renamed sonar also by the way, sonar, not to be confused

01:07:03   with submarine, which is a totally different sound. This is ping. It has become sonar. I

01:07:09   guess hunt for red October fans might enjoy it. Here it is ping followed by sonar.

01:07:14   Hmm. Hmm. That's interesting because the ping sound honestly feels like it belongs

01:07:24   in the new sounds. Can I hit them one more time, please? Okay. Oh, sorry.

01:07:31   That was there for you. No, I don't want more Medso. There was an error. Um, okay. Here we go.

01:07:42   Yeah. Okay. I'm fine with that. I like it. It's a good sound.

01:07:46   I am going to say I dislike it. So we're going to, we're going to make this a split decision.

01:07:52   Right. Um, I like the purity of the ping. It is just, it is just a tone and I don't think you need

01:07:58   to bubble it up with like a, with like, I don't, I don't need that. So here's what I'll say then.

01:08:04   I prefer ping, but I don't dislike sonar. So maybe we could, but maybe we could call that dislike

01:08:12   though, because I like the sound that it had before. All right. So you, you prefer the old

01:08:17   sound. I prefer the old sound, but it's not like with some of them where I dislike the new one,

01:08:23   but I think that it is a regression because I think ping is a better sound. So we'll say,

01:08:29   we'll say we'll just call that dislikes. We don't have to create another scoring category.

01:08:33   So now submarines use pings and sonar and also can generate bubbles and they submerge.

01:08:41   These are all names of sounds, but this is the sound formerly known as pop, which has become

01:08:47   bubble. A bubble is a thing that pops. So that kind of makes sense. So here they are.

01:08:53   Bop, bop and bubble. No, pop and bubble. Here they go.

01:08:57   I prefer bubble. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. It's it's,

01:09:04   Because I don't really think pop is much of anything.

01:09:06   Right. I think that's it is that although bubble is showy and I've said it a couple of

01:09:11   points that I think you don't need to just dress necessarily dress up a sound, but sometimes it is

01:09:16   either delightful or it like goes from being something you'd miss to something you might

01:09:20   actually notice. Yeah. I'm not really sure why anybody would use the pop sound. It's too,

01:09:26   that's way too easy to miss that one. Yeah. I don't like that one.

01:09:34   Okay. So, uh, if you're scoring at home, uh, thank you. It's six to four in favor of Apple's new sounds.

01:09:41   We are moving on now to per, which has been renamed pluck.

01:09:47   We need to talk about this one from a cat to a chicken, apparently, or is someone doing

01:09:53   something terrible to a cat? I'm not sure. I don't know. I mean, maybe we'll find out in the sounds,

01:09:58   but this one of all of the naming ones seems rather peculiar.

01:10:03   All right, here we go. Per followed by pluck. No, no. I agree with you. I love

01:10:12   the sound that I didn't even know was called per, but I like it. It's like, uh, I like per.

01:10:20   I get it's funny really because there are, there are sounds that I sometimes hear on my computer

01:10:28   and I like, I know some of these sounds, so, but I don't know where I'm hearing them, but I guess

01:10:32   that's what you're saying, that some app is using it as an alert. Yeah. Yeah. I think I much prefer

01:10:38   per to pluck. Oh yeah. Pluck, pluck sounds like somebody hit a golf ball. Pluck honestly sounds

01:10:48   quite similar to, um, I think it's pebble. The one where it's dropping in the water. Uh huh.

01:10:58   That's this one. Yeah. Not super similar, but they sound, yeah, they, they both sound to me

01:11:08   like dropping a ball into something or whatever. Yeah. I don't like that one. Okay. We're going to

01:11:14   move on to Sosumi now. Sosumi is a beep sound with a, or at least name for a beep sound with a

01:11:20   legendary history because there was a lawsuit from Apple records to Apple computer because

01:11:28   when Apple was founded, they ended up having to reach an agreement with the Beatles about Apple

01:11:33   records, Apple music, uh, involved basically saying they wouldn't get into music and sound

01:11:38   related things. And of course, as the computer evolved, they very much did that. And there were

01:11:42   some lawsuits. Ultimately Apple basically bought them out and that's why there's Apple music and

01:11:47   stuff like that now is Apple basically wrote a, my understanding is a huge check to the,

01:11:51   the Beatles estates, uh, and Apple records to do this. Um, but the joke was that they put this

01:11:58   sound in there as a reference to that by naming it. So Sue me, but they spelled it. So Sue me.

01:12:03   So this is a classic, very old Mac reference. Um, but what are they? And they left the name.

01:12:09   So Sue me continues to be the name, but they changed the sound. So you're going to hear

01:12:14   Catalina Sussumi and then big sir. Sue me. Sue Sue Sue me. Big sir. Sue me. So studio. Here we go.

01:12:24   So old Sussumi is like, ah, and new Sussumi is like, Tink. Ah, yeah. It's like, ah,

01:12:41   I guess. Yeah. Can I get those once again, please? Yes. Here we go. The Sussumis.

01:12:45   I don't like it. I like the last half, which is a, like you can hear as a modernized version of the

01:12:56   one that it's replacing, but I don't know why it does that part of the star. I don't like the part

01:13:01   of the star. I feel like just a modernized version of Sussumi would have been better rather than

01:13:08   trying to change it. Yeah. They put a little too much, a little too much action on something that

01:13:14   was fine. All right. When we're going to move on to submarine, which is one that I've used a lot

01:13:21   and it has been replaced with something called submerge. See what they did there. Here we go.

01:13:28   Yeah. Okay. I mean, I would just say that that was so not right. Like if you know,

01:13:37   well, I was just as surprised as you that this is what this was. I use submarine sometimes.

01:13:42   It's a very stereo sound, by the way. It does a left, right pan kind of thing that submerged

01:13:47   doesn't do so much. Um, I think this is funny cause they backed off of the like reverb and stuff

01:13:53   that's in submarine and they've like simplified it with submerge, which I think is funny since they

01:13:57   said that, Oh, that we changed the sounds because modern Mac sound systems and it's a more immersive

01:14:02   kind of thing. But in this case, they kind of went away from the, uh, like super skeuomorphic,

01:14:08   I guess, sound to something that's much more, um, almost like a, like a very simple alert tone.

01:14:15   Um, and I'm not sure I, not sure I like it. Not sure I like it. I'm going to play it again,

01:14:19   just so we can ponder a little more. The originals better. Yeah. I appreciate the simplification

01:14:28   there, but I like the original. Okay. Apple is we're tied now. Six, six. Okay. We have one last

01:14:37   alert and then we're going to move on to some system sounds. We have a handful of system sounds.

01:14:41   This is tink, which has been renamed in big Sur boop from tink to boop, everybody from tink to

01:14:51   boop. Here we go. I mean, there's not a lot to go on. No, it feels now it feels like we're,

01:14:59   there's some sort of psychological exam that we're going through. I mean, I prefer boop,

01:15:04   I guess, cause it's just a more pleasant sound. I agree with you actually that it is less ear

01:15:09   splitting and annoying. Whereas tink is so high pitched that it makes me want to, you know,

01:15:14   swat whatever insect just buzzed past my ear. Yeah. I wouldn't use either of them. No,

01:15:21   neither would I, but, but tink suffers from that. Like you would never hear this problem and boop is

01:15:28   at least a little bit more, um, noticeable, but they didn't really go very far away to create boop.

01:15:36   All right. We're going to move on to some system alerts. Um, these don't have names,

01:15:42   although they do have file names. I find that the file names don't always describe what's actually

01:15:46   happening when they're played. We can talk about that if you want, but, but I'm going to just

01:15:52   introduce them by their names, their file names, and then you can judge just how they, regardless

01:15:58   of how they're used, whether the new sound improves on the old sound. So this sound is

01:16:01   called drag to trash and the new one. No, no, no, no, no. I don't like that.

01:16:13   No. Yeah. I mean, it's so dramatic. Oh, trash it's in the trash versus.

01:16:22   That's a bad sound. Like I actually would say that even the ones that I don't like,

01:16:30   they're not necessarily bad. That one is just bad. Like it doesn't sound good at all. Not up for

01:16:38   that. Yeah. I'm with you. I don't, I don't agree. And that drag to trash sound is like, it feels

01:16:43   iconic. I know. Well, they did something to the icon. Um, by the way, if they change any of these

01:16:51   sounds before it goes final, we are taking full credit. Okay. Yeah. You and me. A little packed.

01:16:56   Who else is going to do this? No one else now. We got there first. Yeah. I think nobody else was

01:17:01   ever going to do this, but definitely we got there first. It's only the kind of thing, ridiculous

01:17:06   thing you find in the upgrade summer of fun here is empty trash. You ready? Yep. And.

01:17:13   What? So, so empty trash used to be like the rustling of trash or like you were crumpling

01:17:22   up a piece of paper. The new empty trash seems to be opening a door or something.

01:17:26   I don't know what that, no, I don't like that one either. Yeah. I don't, I don't appreciate that. I

01:17:34   feel like, and I appreciate that I've been hearing this one for like a couple of decades now, but it

01:17:41   does have a kind of crumpled up garbage feel to it. And this it's like, there's some crumpling

01:17:48   there, but also like, what is that clunk? Like, what is your trash? Is it a door to the trash bin?

01:17:55   I understand how they're going from one to the other, right? Because they've removed the, like,

01:18:00   this sounds like it's going into a trash, like waste paper basket. Yeah. Right. But the problem

01:18:08   is the crumple and the door close are happening simultaneously, which wouldn't happen, right? You

01:18:13   can't crumple up your trash and, and close the bin door simultaneously, or your trash won't go in the

01:18:20   bin. So I have some logic problems with this sound is what I'm saying. I have some questions about

01:18:25   the continuity. I don't like it. Yeah, no, I don't like it. I don't like it. Okay. We're going to move

01:18:30   on to something that this is, this is a little weird. So there's a sound called grab, which is

01:18:36   named after the utility that I think no longer exists. That was the screenshot utility in OS

01:18:42   10 for a very long time that nobody used, but it was there from the very beginning. And then there's

01:18:47   a sound called screenshot. And this is basically the new default sound when you take a screenshot.

01:18:54   So the files are actually different files, but this is we're going from the old default to the

01:19:00   new default. Okay. Are you ready? Yeah. And so how do you feel about skeuomorphism?

01:19:08   I'll just point out the sound of a film camera winding its film after taking a shot,

01:19:16   lost, lost on younger users. Right. But what's happened to iOS? I don't know.

01:19:23   I'm going to, I haven't tried that. They changed the sound on iOS. Let me find out.

01:19:27   No, they haven't. So why did they do that? Uh, that I think you've asked a very important

01:19:34   question, which is why would you change the screenshot sound on one and not the other?

01:19:38   Yeah. Like I have no problem with that sound. And honestly like the screenshot sounds,

01:19:44   it's like, what's the point of the screenshot sound like sounding like a photo being taken

01:19:50   from a film camera? Like there's no point in the same as like, you know, I know why. So what I

01:19:55   say is I know why the camera has that noise. Like the cameras are supposed to make that noise in

01:20:00   certain regions of the world. Like it's actually a legal requirement, but the screenshot isn't a

01:20:05   camera. Exactly. I mean, and neither does really the, I don't think the camera has to make that

01:20:12   exact sound, right. It can make any sound. I like the noise if that's what we're judging it on.

01:20:18   Yeah. I, I, I think I prefer it. I'm, I'm torn about this cause as a, as a media computer tech

01:20:24   media person, I take a lot of screenshots. And so that, that, that sound is like an old friend to me

01:20:29   at the same time. It doesn't make any sense and it's kind of unpleasant. And the new sound

01:20:33   indicates that you've taken a screenshot. Uh, so I'm going to say, I like it, uh, change is hard,

01:20:38   but I'm going to go with it. I think that they're okay in changing that one.

01:20:41   Yeah. Yeah. And Myke, that brings us to our last sound. This sound, this finally was called volume

01:20:47   mount, but I think of it as the volume network volume dismount sound. Uh, maybe I'm getting that

01:20:53   wrong, but anyway, this is a sound that changed that involves external drives on your Mac.

01:20:58   Right. Yeah. Wait. Okay. Yeah. I hear that noise a lot. Yeah. I think that's the noise when I drag

01:21:08   my external drive to the trash and it ejects, I get this. Yeah. I hear that. Or like when you

01:21:14   drag something somewhere else in the system. Yes. James isn't saying the chat room. It's the copy

01:21:20   finish sound. Ah, it's the copy finish. Well, it's called volume mount. Okay. So I don't know why,

01:21:26   but it changed. And now it sounds like this. Can I get those again? Like one after the other? Sure.

01:21:36   And I don't know, again, there may be some confusion here where they've, they've kept the

01:21:39   name the same and changed where you hear it, but this is the volume out sound. I like that one more.

01:21:48   Yeah. The old one is like you shot your file with a laser and it's dead now. Yeah. And the new one

01:21:55   is like, it's moved. It's like transported itself, you know? Yeah. I like that one. Well,

01:22:01   I have some good news for Apple sound designers because like has beaten dislike, but it was nine

01:22:07   to eight. So half of your new sounds we like. The good news is you won. The bad news is it was by

01:22:13   one point. Hmm. Okay. So I think overall, like, even though we're pretty close to like, dislike,

01:22:21   I would say that I think overall the sounds are good, but I think the problem is that sometimes

01:22:27   the replacements are not good. Right? Like I think that's something we can agree on that like

01:22:32   there are actually more good sounds than there are bad sounds, maybe even nine to eight,

01:22:38   but in some places the sound that it, the new sound isn't a good replacement for the old sound.

01:22:44   Right. I think that is, that is more of a, uh, an issue there, I guess. Yeah. That's what we're

01:22:49   measuring is was it an improvement? And, um, cause I, I agree. I think that there are a bunch of

01:22:54   these sounds that are fine, but, um, we felt like eight of them were not improvements on the old

01:23:00   sound. Yes. Yeah. It's it's tricky because change, I mean, that's one of the things I'm trying to

01:23:06   fight here is like, I took a screenshot on, on big Sur and heard that sound and I thought, Oh no,

01:23:11   no, no, no. What did you do? What did you do? And I've had to think about it and like, okay,

01:23:15   do I really like the old sound or is the old sound familiar? And the answer is it's familiar and I

01:23:20   don't like it and I'm okay with the change. And likewise, that volume mount sound, I think the

01:23:24   new one is better. The old one is very familiar and, but then the empty trash sound. Um, I don't

01:23:31   think the new one is a better sound. So, but it's hard to unravel our, our history with the, with

01:23:37   using the Mac from being, from seeing these new sounds. But you know, that didn't stop us, did it?

01:23:43   No, Stephanie didn't. This episode is brought to you by express VPN. It's fair to say we all

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01:25:04   VPN for their support of this show and all of Relay FM. Should we do some hashtag ask upgrade

01:25:11   questions? #askupgrade. Oh, it's the lasers, huh? Is that what that was? Yeah, I was trying.

01:25:18   Very nice. I liked it. I don't know if we're going to make that a permanent stay, but...

01:25:23   No, we're not. We're definitely not. Good, good. First question comes from Paul. Do you think with

01:25:29   Apple Silicon hardware updates, do you think that we're going to see more frequent or regular updates

01:25:35   than we've seen for the Mac in the past few years? I think they're not going to have to wait for

01:25:40   Intel, right? So that's good. My guess is that we're going to see an annual cycle for most Apple

01:25:44   products and maybe some of them will be 18 months or two years, just like with the iPhone. Look at

01:25:48   the iPhone and the iPad. There's a new iPhone every year. There's a new iPad sort of... There

01:25:52   are different iPad models throughout the year. iPad Pro seems to be on an 18 month cycle. I would

01:25:58   imagine there will be some regular cycle like that and the ones that Apple feels the need to revise,

01:26:03   they will revise. I think the real question is if they come out with a new processor in the

01:26:07   fall on the iPhone, when does it hit the other products and is it right away or do they choose

01:26:12   to roll those out? They can't release every new product at the same time, right? They have to

01:26:16   stretch it out because they can't release all their products in the fall. They can't do it.

01:26:22   But I imagine we're going to be in a scenario where the new processor year starts in the fall

01:26:27   with the iPhone and then for the next year, you're going to see variants of that chip in all of their

01:26:32   other devices. So in the end, I mean, some of these products have gotten to the point where

01:26:38   they're sort of annual updates already and I imagine that'll continue and then there are some

01:26:42   lower priority products that won't be. But for the ones where it matters, yeah, I think if they're

01:26:48   already releasing a new chip for the iPhone every year, why would they not use that opportunity in

01:26:53   that cycle to have a version of that for all of their other products too? So I think it will be

01:26:58   more regular and it may or may not be more frequent, but it will be more regular because

01:27:04   Apple controls it and Intel Apple couldn't control. Yeah, I think that I pretty much agree

01:27:12   with everything you said there, right? Like I think that we will see more frequent updates

01:27:17   but no matter what we do see, it will at least be on a schedule that Apple have decided for

01:27:23   themselves by and large, right? That maybe one of the biggest things was the fact that they needed

01:27:29   to wait for Intel or they even had features that they wanted to add but they couldn't because of

01:27:34   Intel as well, right? So I think that we're going to see a more, maybe more consistent for Apple

01:27:40   schedule than what we've seen over the last few years especially. Yeah. Rajeev asks, "Does iOS 14

01:27:47   include a Find My widget like the one in iOS 12 or added of iOS 12? I checked and there isn't a

01:27:54   new Find My widget on iOS which I thought was peculiar. I don't remember if, does Big Sur have

01:28:03   a Find My app? I think it does, right? Yes, yes. Oh, well, Catalina has a Find My app. Catalina added

01:28:11   the Find My app, okay, because I remember like on Mojave and before, the only way that you could use

01:28:17   Find My Friends was through the widget in the notification center. Yeah. But I find not having

01:28:24   a Find My widget to be peculiar, it may be that like a Find My widget isn't that useful with the

01:28:30   way that widgets are built, like it wouldn't be able to update quickly enough. I think that's

01:28:34   exactly it, is that the, you know, they could add a Find My widget that like showed people's faces

01:28:41   and then you tap to launch it and it will show you that and maybe they will in a future beta. I bet

01:28:46   you could make a shortcut that did that maybe, but thank you for looking. So I would maybe say

01:28:51   like a Find My widget might be really nice when they have their own devices or that API for devices

01:28:57   to tie in. So you could like have a little icon of a device and you tap it and it will either make

01:29:03   a sound or go to that, the little tag, right, that's being searched for. But yeah, but it is

01:29:10   it is a peculiar omission to have nothing because now there will be no widget anymore where there

01:29:17   was one before and that feels strange. Maybe it'll come back. It's beta. Sam asked, "Do you think Mac

01:29:24   developers will be getting on board with the new design for Big Sur as well as the work needed to

01:29:29   support Apple Silicon?" Yeah, and I think Sam's implication here is if they're busy doing Apple

01:29:33   Silicon support, will they prioritize that over the design? They inherit a lot of the design,

01:29:39   it's not quite the same, but like there is a default, like the default window of old looks

01:29:45   different in Big Sur. It also looks wrong, like it's centered instead of left aligned and like

01:29:50   it's not, it clearly is not right for the Big Sur design. I do think that Apple Silicon support

01:29:58   is going to come first and then UI support will come after that and it depends on how easy it is

01:30:05   this summer for them to convert their apps to Apple Silicon. If it's easy, then that gives them more

01:30:09   time to support other features or make it look good using the new design. But I think that will

01:30:14   always come second and you know, it's going to be your typical thing where some apps come out with

01:30:20   new design support immediately and others kind of lag behind and that's the way of things.

01:30:26   But there will be, you'll be able to tell because the new design is different enough that it's not,

01:30:32   again, not like the old one will look like old windows, it'll just look like the more generic

01:30:38   version that isn't, you know, that it's sort of center and the toolbar is below and things like

01:30:43   that. Whereas the new ones will feel very, very new, but everybody will get on board eventually.

01:30:47   I think, I think though Apple Silicon is the priority there. The design is going to wait.

01:30:51   You got to make sure your app runs and runs natively before you worry about UI conventions.

01:30:55   Yeah, that is important. I do hope that developers will do the additional work at some point.

01:31:05   So the apps look and feel at home. I mean, that's always the case. You want to fit the platform

01:31:10   design, right? So you always want to do that. I think maybe more so than iOS though, I think

01:31:16   that there will be apps that people will use frequently on Big Sur that will take a long time,

01:31:21   if ever, you know, just because that there are maybe more, legacy is not the right word,

01:31:27   but applications that are maybe just in maintenance mode on the Mac because it's an older platform.

01:31:32   I don't know. I, but I hope that we'll see a lot of, a lot of applications do what they need to do

01:31:38   to make that work and to feel good. Charlie asked, do you think that Microsoft will create

01:31:44   original TV content like Apple and Amazon? So my initial thought to this is that Microsoft

01:31:50   seems to be playing a different game. And then I realized that was a good pun because like quite

01:31:55   literally Microsoft's entertainment stuff is Xbox, right? They are, they make games. And I think that

01:32:01   that is a big enough business for them that requires a lot of focus and is already on the

01:32:06   outside of the rest of their company to a degree. Um, I don't imagine we will see Microsoft in this

01:32:14   business for a long time, if ever, because they have a whole entertainment thing. They've tried

01:32:20   and failed to take some of their Xbox content and turn it into, um, TV shows and stuff before.

01:32:24   Yeah, they were going to do a halo TV show and stuff and they pulled the plug on all that stuff.

01:32:28   So I think they've, I think they've been there. Uh, they've been there, didn't do it right. Like

01:32:32   they've learned their lesson. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's a,

01:32:35   I don't think such a Nadella thinks that's a focus for them. I think there was like a Microsoft TV

01:32:40   product thing at one point too. Oh sure. I mean, they've tried all sorts of different things there,

01:32:44   but in the streaming world, it seems pretty far out of what Microsoft would be interested in doing.

01:32:48   A good point that Matt's made in the chat room, they do own the Minecraft license.

01:32:52   You know, there's stuff you can do there. And I think they have done some stuff, but anyway,

01:32:56   it's, this is not a case of like what Apple's doing. No, and that's, and that's over. They,

01:33:01   I think they've regretted everything they've done and aren't going to do it going forward.

01:33:05   I would say it's highly unlikely. Uh, Coshak asks, would you personally prefer a watered down

01:33:12   version of logic on the iPad or a full catalyst version of ferrite on the Mac?

01:33:18   Uh, I prefer ferrite on the Mac because ferrite, uh, which is the app we use,

01:33:24   or I use to edit some podcasts. I think it is everything. It has every feature that I need as

01:33:29   a podcast editor. Logic's a music app. And my, my guess would be that if logic went on the iPad

01:33:36   instead of the garage band, which is sort of based on logic, but if they did logic on the iPad,

01:33:40   their primary focus will be music features. So we might be able to use it and that might be nice.

01:33:45   But my guess is that any place where it's falling down on the iPad versus the Mac is going to be on

01:33:52   things that podcasters use because their goal is going to be to make it a music composition and

01:33:58   editing tool for, you know, for musicians to build and produce songs. So we might be able to use it.

01:34:05   Whereas ferrite is a podcast editing app. Ferrite just does exactly what I need. And so a Mac version

01:34:11   of that is going to be exactly what I need. So I, I would choose the product that is designed

01:34:17   for people like me over the product that is designed for people who are not like me,

01:34:22   but that I occasionally can use sneakily because it's better than the other alternatives. If that

01:34:27   makes any sense, like, uh, right. Apple, Apple is aware that podcasters use logic, but it doesn't

01:34:33   care. I think would be the way I'd put it. Whereas ferrite, that's what it's about.

01:34:38   Nick Neuman (01:01): Yeah. I, uh, I would prefer to have the logic

01:34:43   experience that I'm used to on my iPad. So I didn't have to re-learn a new tool, but I don't

01:34:48   think I agree with you. Like if Apple made logic for the iPad, they would probably, well, they

01:34:54   probably best if they, they streamlined the project, like the product in some way, which

01:34:59   could remove things that I'm used to, even though I'm a pretty surface level user. But anyway,

01:35:04   I think that...

01:35:05   Right. Cause you're not the priority, right? So they could remove some things that are like

01:35:08   not big deals to their audience that kill your use of it because they're not thinking about you.

01:35:13   Like they could get rid of markers or something. Who knows? Right. Um, but what, what I,

01:35:18   what I think is that when, if and when ferrite comes to the Mac, that's probably when I will

01:35:26   try to move to ferrite. So then I have that experience across all of my devices.

01:35:32   I hope I'm not stepping out of, out of turn here, but I think the developer of ferrite has said

01:35:38   that they are, that he's investigating catalyst and the Mac and wants to do it. But I think there

01:35:45   have been no statements beyond that. And it hasn't happened yet, which would lead me to believe that

01:35:49   since it hasn't happened yet, it probably won't happen until the big Sur era. Right. Because if,

01:35:54   if it had been something that could have been done for the version of catalyst that's in Catalina,

01:35:58   we would have it now. So I suspect it's going to be if, if we get that much hoped for Mac version

01:36:04   of ferrite, it'll probably be, uh, this fall at the earliest and maybe later than that. But I, I

01:36:09   I'm with you. I feel like the value of being able to round trip between iPad and Mac for podcast

01:36:17   editing is, um, is a big deal. So for me too, cause I'm used to logic and use the logic on the

01:36:23   Mac all the time now. Um, but if I can take my projects and move them, just move them to the iPad,

01:36:28   that's, that's a reason enough for me to switch, to have the same app on both.

01:36:32   And this isn't an application that I want to experience the iOS version of on my Mac.

01:36:40   I, for a tool like this, I would want personally to have a, at least catalyst version of it.

01:36:49   Right. So like when Apple Silicon comes over, like, I don't think that for me,

01:36:54   I want my audio editor to be an iOS port running. Like, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about

01:37:01   that. I would need to see a lot more about exactly how that's going to work. You know what I mean?

01:37:06   Yeah. But I feel like I would prefer something built for the platform that it's on if I'm going

01:37:10   to be producing my shows in it. Yeah. There are keyboard things, but you know, you got, um, it's

01:37:15   got a, uh, a project based approach where it's like all in there, the app bundle. And so there's

01:37:21   going to be questions of like, how do you get things in? I'm sure, I'm sure it will run on

01:37:25   Apple Silicon, right under iPad, iOS version. It'll just run. I'm not sure that's I'm with you.

01:37:31   I think that that's the beauty of catalyst. And I honestly, I think that developer is so

01:37:35   careful and considerate when it, when, when they're building features that, um, they wouldn't

01:37:44   be satisfied with just chucking out the iPad version. So I would hope that may also be a

01:37:50   motivator. Like, no, no, no, no, please don't run the iPad version on your Mac run this catalyst

01:37:54   version instead. Also, a lot of us are still using computers that are not going to be able to run,

01:37:58   um, those apps. Cause we're on Intel for a while, especially podcast editors. We've got our,

01:38:04   you know, iPad, iMac pros and stuff. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I, I do think that it's less

01:38:10   likely I would get anything out of logic on the iPad, although I would like to see it then cattle,

01:38:15   then a catalyst version of ferrite. And lastly, this question comes from stitch does summer fun

01:38:21   come with all waving motions, I guess almost in like a muppet like fashion. Uh, for me,

01:38:27   it is just leaning back and shouting in the upwards direction. So I don't destroy my microphone

01:38:33   and your ears in the process. Yeah. I think part of the fun of the summer of fun shout is that it's

01:38:37   at a distance cause we're shouting up into the rafters and I, I similarly I'm sort of turning and

01:38:42   shouting upward and that's what it is. So I, I, I just did it and you just did it and I didn't,

01:38:48   I didn't wave my arms. So that might happen occasionally, but it's mostly just the,

01:38:52   the act of turning away from the microphone and shouting. It's fun.

01:38:55   If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show, just send out a

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01:39:30   for over a month now, Jason. So, Hey, hooray. Thank you everybody. We've done it. Yeah. So

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01:40:11   I am @imike, I M Y K E and Jason is @jsnell and we'll be back next time until then say goodbye,

01:40:18   Jason Snell. Goodbye, Myke Hurley. Nice. Nice.

01:40:29   [Inaudible]