301: Show Me You’re Serious


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 301. Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,

00:00:15   Bombas, and Ooni Pizza Ovens. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hello, Myke Hurley. I'm present. I'm here. I'm ready. This episode, it is the calm before the storm, right?

00:00:27   We've got a lot of stuff going on over the next few weeks. This is the last episode before

00:00:32   things start to change again, I guess, with WWDC related stuff. We'll talk about that

00:00:36   a little later on in the episode today, but of course I have a #SnellTalk question

00:00:41   from Nathan, and Nathan asks, "Jason, on macOS, what is the alert sound that you use? Do you use ping,

00:00:48   pop, or purr?" You know? I... those are all sounds that you're allowed. I don't use any of them.

00:00:57   I don't use a default sound. I use a custom sound. We'll put a link in the show notes to my

00:01:03   article on Six Colors that I wrote about this, because you can make, like, custom audio files

00:01:08   and save them and then use them as your own beep. You don't need to use the system beeps if you

00:01:14   don't want to. And the backstory here is, when I was in... we're going a long way back here...

00:01:19   when I was in college, there was an app for the classic macOS called Soundmaster,

00:01:28   which allowed you to put... it was really kind of evil. This is by a guy named Bruce Tomlin.

00:01:36   It allowed you to attach a sound effect to many different aspects of macOS. Like,

00:01:46   it would play a sound when you started up, it would play a sound when you chose restart,

00:01:50   it would play a sound when you chose shutdown, it would play a sound if you put a disc in,

00:01:54   it would play a sound if you ejected the disc, it would play a sound on your beep, it would play a

00:02:00   sound when you clicked a key, it would play a sound if you... you could have it be like you

00:02:05   hit the delete key, it would play a sound. This is the kind of stuff that people did on their

00:02:09   computers before they had the internet. Oh yeah, oh man. You had this computer and the computer

00:02:14   could do things, but it was only things that you could do, so you just had to find stuff to do.

00:02:20   Yeah, so I had, like, a college girlfriend had Hal 9000 say, "My mind is going" every time she

00:02:32   shut her computer down, which is pretty funny. I had, um, this is going to say a lot about who I am,

00:02:40   um, when I ejected a disc for a period of time, you would hear William Shatner from his album,

00:02:48   The Transformed Man, from the song Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, shouting, "And she's gone!"

00:02:56   As the disc ejected. I thought that was hilarious. That's pretty funny one time. Yeah,

00:03:03   although, you know, if you don't eject discs that often, then you're like, "Oh yeah, right,

00:03:07   that was William Shatner, right?" But if you're doing it all the time, it will make you want to

00:03:11   murder. So, um, the answer though is one of the sounds that came with Soundmaster that you could

00:03:18   use, because it came with some sound files, because it was at that point non-trivial to

00:03:23   make your own sound files. I eventually bought this thing called the Mac Recorder, and that's

00:03:26   how I got the William Shatner thing in there and all of that. But it came with a bunch of sounds.

00:03:30   And one of the sounds that came with Soundmaster is a person's voice saying in kind of a monotone,

00:03:37   "Beep." Just saying the word "beep." And I thought that was hilarious, and I made it my beep sound.

00:03:44   And when I left Soundmaster behind, I got that sound, I extracted that sound, and that extraction

00:03:50   from my Mac in the 90s has been converted various times. When we went to OS X and you had to have it

00:03:57   in a different format, I converted it to a different format. And that has been my beep

00:04:02   sound since I was in college, and it still is my beep sound. It is a voice saying "beep." That's it.

00:04:08   That's my answer. Thank you to Nathan for that great question, which went into places no one

00:04:14   was expecting. If you would like to submit a question to help us open an episode of Upgrade,

00:04:20   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #SnellTalk, and it will be potentially included in a future

00:04:25   episode. Thank you to everybody that does that. So I wanted to follow up a little bit on how we

00:04:30   opened our show last week, talking about Black Lives Matter and a lot of the issues that are

00:04:35   occurring in the US and elsewhere, including the protests and stuff like that. And one of the

00:04:40   reasons I want to bring it up again this week is that Tim Cook posted an open letter on Apple.com

00:04:44   talking about his feelings in regards to the current situation regarding systemic racism.

00:04:50   It was on the front page, right? So like all really kind of good Apple open letters, right?

00:04:56   When they want you to see them, they put them on Apple.com. Tim doesn't do this as much as

00:05:01   Steve used to. I think, well, as well, Tim does them for like things that are important to the

00:05:08   world. Steve used to do them for kind of like spite, right? Like the flashlights and stuff.

00:05:16   So there's a good difference between the two of them. It's very well written.

00:05:19   But there was one part in it that I wanted to highlight specifically because I thought that

00:05:24   it was really important, and it put into words something that I think is useful to hear. So I'll

00:05:29   read the quote, which is, "This is a moment when many people may want nothing more than a return

00:05:34   to normalcy or to a status quo that is only comfortable if we avert our gaze from injustice.

00:05:39   As difficult as it may be to admit, that desire is itself a sign of privilege. George Floyd's death is

00:05:46   shocking and tragic proof that we must aim higher than a normal future and build one that lives up

00:05:51   to the highest ideals of equality and justice." And I think this part is really key because it

00:05:58   says something that is useful to bear in mind, which is that things are starting to happen,

00:06:04   right? And there are some wrongs starting to be righted and changes occurring. But it's important

00:06:11   to remember that we don't just accept those and think it's all good, right? Oh, great. These

00:06:18   police officers were put in prison. These rules were changed. We're all good now.

00:06:22   - Problem solved.

00:06:23   - Exactly. Because that's not even the fix. It's not what the problem is. They're like a level

00:06:29   above, right? So we need to all pay attention to and remember how we're feeling now and find ways

00:06:37   to continue paying attention and making change going forward. And I'm doing that. I know we're

00:06:42   all doing that. And I encourage other people to think of it too. If there are a bunch of things

00:06:46   that change stuff, that's great. But that doesn't mean the problem is solved. And I really like the

00:06:52   way that Tim put that in his letter. So I wanted to just share my thoughts on that.

00:06:56   - Thank you. I wanted to mention something related to this, which is HBO had a show that just was

00:07:03   canceled after a couple of seasons. It was Wyatt Cenac, who is a correspondent and writer at "The

00:07:08   Daily Show." He was actually on an episode of "The Flop House" at one point. I remember that

00:07:11   very clearly. He did a show called "Wyatt Cenac's Problem Areas" on HBO two seasons.

00:07:16   Fans of "The Flop House," Hallie Haglund was the head writer for that show, who was a regular on

00:07:22   "The Flop House" regular guest. She's one of the greatest voices in podcasting. I love Hallie so

00:07:26   much. So season one of "Wyatt Cenac's Problem Areas," it was a half-hour news/comedy show in

00:07:37   the vein of "John Oliver Show" and "The Daily Show" and things like that. And it was on HBO.

00:07:43   It's actually a really nice show. It's funny. Wyatt Cenac's very funny. The set design is

00:07:50   awesome. The graphics are great. But in season one, their big takeout piece, if you think about

00:07:57   "John Oliver Show," they would do an intro piece and a little interstitial, and then they would do

00:08:02   a long piece at the end of the show. And season one is all about the police and police reform and

00:08:09   police brutality and all sorts of things that are the issues that we're all grappling with now.

00:08:16   And he tweeted last week and said, "Hey, HBO, wouldn't it be great if, since we covered this

00:08:24   entire issue in season one of 'Problem Areas,' you could make those available for everybody to see?"

00:08:29   And he just sort of did it idly. And HBO said, "Yes, you're right." And his whole show is on HBO.

00:08:37   At least, I don't know if it's worldwide or if it's just in the US, but there's a playlist.

00:08:41   We'll put a link in the show notes.

00:08:44   - It's on YouTube, right? - Yeah, it's on YouTube. So you can watch it

00:08:47   for free on YouTube. And it's a funny show, but it's also a really good dive into that topic. And

00:08:55   because they spent all season talking about it, they get the opportunity to spend time on all

00:09:00   sorts of different angles of it, from bias to "Can you reform a police department?"

00:09:06   Lots of different angles that I thought were really good. So it's a good show. I recommend it.

00:09:12   And you can watch it for free. - Great. So we're going to keep talking

00:09:16   about this, right? I think everyone should. And it's important to keep paying attention.

00:09:19   And we got great feedback from some listeners. And I thought it was really nice that we can try and

00:09:26   all come together on this. It's super important. Next week, it's draft time. The WWDC 2020 draft

00:09:33   will begin on next week's episode. So both me and Jason will be working hard over the next week,

00:09:39   coming out of our picks. It's kind of like sharpening our brain swords or something.

00:09:45   I don't know. To do battle. I'm really excited. The draft is, I think, honestly, at this point,

00:09:51   I think I look forward to the drafts more than the keynotes. - Oh, interesting.

00:09:55   - Which, that isn't a surprise to me, though, right? Like, for me, I love all the weird stuff

00:10:01   that we do on this show. And the draft is one of my favorite things. - It's true.

00:10:04   - And the WWDC draft is the big one. It's the biggest draft of the year.

00:10:08   - I love that it's a little injection of normalcy into our weird world that we live in right now.

00:10:14   That it's like, oh, yeah, right. Remember drafts and Apple events? So I guess I got to start

00:10:21   planning my plan of attack. - It's the big one. I'm very excited. So that's going to be next week's

00:10:26   show. And the week after will be our post-keynote show. So it's all happening. - Yeah. What's that

00:10:31   going to be like? - I have a couple of coronavirus-related topics I want to just bring up really

00:10:37   quick about the way Apple is continuing to respond to COVID-19. Don't forget that's still out there.

00:10:43   Hasn't been front of my mind for the last week or so, but it's still happening.

00:10:47   Italy and Latvia have both launched apps that take advantage of the Exposure Notification API.

00:10:53   So these are now running, right? Like, they're available. I was actually talking to Federico

00:10:57   earlier. He's downloaded it and is using the one in Italy. It's the first person I know,

00:11:02   personally, that is using an app with the Exposure Notification API.

00:11:06   - Yeah, I was impressed with their localization. Federico's phone is set to English,

00:11:11   and the Italian notification app had detailed instructions about how to use it in English. I

00:11:16   thought that was very impressive. - Oh, that's really nice. I didn't think of that, but that's

00:11:19   a really good point. Still hoping that more people are going to take advantage of this. I've been

00:11:24   seeing some people talking over the last few days. It's a very good point. With everything that's

00:11:28   going on right now in the world on top of the coronavirus stuff, I think for certain people,

00:11:35   people like me, only highlighting more why you wouldn't want a decentralized,

00:11:40   government-based approach. Having someone in the middle might be good.

00:11:45   But it's interesting to see that there are countries that are out there that have

00:11:50   got these apps up and running. And then I also saw a report from Mark Gurman at Bloomberg

00:11:56   on how Apple is planning and already starting to have employees return to its offices.

00:12:03   So there's a couple of things that I'll just highlight. Some people started to return in May.

00:12:09   Apple is offering optional COVID-19 tests for those employees. They are requiring temperature

00:12:16   checks that people only work a few days a week in the office. They're enforcing social distancing.

00:12:21   One detail on this, which is interesting, I hadn't considered before. Only two people in an elevator

00:12:27   at a time. Elevators are like, "Oh, yeah, you're super close to people." So Elevators are going to

00:12:33   be a weird one for a while. And then Apple is also requesting their employees to wear masks

00:12:38   in the office too. So that's kind of what they're doing. There's nothing groundbreaking here.

00:12:43   All sorts of companies are struggling with this. I mean, my wife's place of business,

00:12:47   she's a librarian. They returned to their workplace last week. And it was half the staff

00:12:56   at a time alternating half at home, half in the library, socially distanced, wearing masks.

00:13:01   It's not back to normal. It's back to a seriously modified kind of thing and trying to figure out

00:13:07   the best way to get some people back in the office without putting them at risk. So everybody's trying

00:13:14   different stuff and we'll see how it goes. A lot of this reopening is going to lead to

00:13:19   increases in incidents of the virus. So everybody's just going to watch and hopefully do the right

00:13:26   things to not spread it around. There has to be some kind of level, right, that's in between

00:13:33   where we were before and where we've been for the last few months. Yeah, ideally you want to go from

00:13:39   complete shutdown to something that's safe but a little bit more open in order to kind of ride it

00:13:43   out, I think. Yeah, and everyone's got to work together on it. This is something that we're only

00:13:49   going to get through if we all pull together. So there's a lot of that going around right now.

00:13:53   Upstream, let's do some headlines in streaming media. Apple have hired Jim DiLorenzo away from

00:14:00   Amazon. No way, Jim DiLorenzo? Everyone's favorite. The interesting part here is that

00:14:07   DiLorenzo is a sports person and they will be heading up sports for Apple TV+ according to

00:14:13   Peter Kufka. Yeah, so he was involved in a lot of Amazon's kind of, they've done some experimentation

00:14:21   with sports and with live sports and deals with sports. They did some, they've got some Premier

00:14:26   League deals in the UK. They've done some NFL deals in the US. And for this guy to go to Apple,

00:14:32   we, now I want to just not to pat ourselves on the back too much, but we had a conversation a few

00:14:37   weeks ago on Upstream about live sports as a potential target based on a different report for

00:14:43   Apple. And the idea that there are lots of sports rights that are coming up and there are a lot of

00:14:47   sports entities that are really excited about the idea that different streaming services are going

00:14:51   to lead to an even bigger kind of feeding frenzy where they're going to make even more money because

00:14:56   the streamers are going to want to get people to basically force them to subscribe to their stream

00:15:03   to get their live sports that they want. And that is potentially a big trend. This is also why all

00:15:09   the cable companies, the earlier part of the last decade, spent huge amounts of money for long-term

00:15:15   deals with a lot of sports properties because they were afraid that there would be cord cutting and

00:15:22   that their hedge against it was live sports. So live sports is one of those things that if you

00:15:24   don't care about sports, you know, you don't care about it. But for a large number of people,

00:15:29   live sports is one of the few levers that you can use to force people into a particular provider

00:15:37   because they have a favorite team or a favorite sport. And they, you know, it's one thing to say,

00:15:43   "Oh, well, there's this TV show I heard was good, but I'm not going to watch it." But if it's like,

00:15:46   it's your favorite team and now they're only over here. The power is enormous. And then also,

00:15:54   keep in mind that it's also like live TV versus on-demand. And that's a different profile because

00:15:59   you want to watch that live. So this is going to be, if the rush to create streaming services was

00:16:05   the story of the last few years, and now we're kind of in that era where everybody's kind of got that

00:16:09   and they're all going to be battling, I feel like the story of the next five years, at least in part,

00:16:14   is going to be over exclusive stuff like sports deals because that's one way that you get people

00:16:20   to sign up for Apple TV Plus is to say, "If you want to watch whatever it is, you have to sign

00:16:26   up for Apple TV Plus." I will also say, there is a positive here for consumers, which is some sports

00:16:32   stuff isn't accessible. Famously, and they just changed this, but in LA for the last few years,

00:16:40   most people in LA couldn't watch the Dodgers on TV because the Dodgers, the baseball team in LA,

00:16:45   by the way, they signed an exclusive agreement with one cable company and that cable company

00:16:51   tried to extort a big fee out of the other cable companies in LA and they had a dispute and many,

00:17:00   many, many people in LA just couldn't get their local team. Or the NFL package that lets you see

00:17:06   any NFL game live, not just the one that's being shown in your local market, was sold to DirecTV,

00:17:13   which is a satellite provider, so if you had cable, you couldn't see it. You literally had

00:17:17   to put a satellite dish on your roof if you wanted to see it. So we've seen companies use sports as

00:17:23   leverage to get people onto their platform before, but also a streaming service, the barrier is less.

00:17:32   You don't have to install hardware, it doesn't matter where you live, you can sign up for the

00:17:36   streaming service. So on that level, it's not great because it's like, "I don't want to sign

00:17:40   up for the streaming service that I don't actually want, but my favorite team is on it." I get that.

00:17:44   I do prefer, though, the idea that I can just sign up for a streaming service for the season and then

00:17:49   cancel it, then I need to install something on my roof or move to a place where the cable company

00:17:55   shows my team, because those are not great. So we've got to keep an eye on this because I think

00:18:00   it's very clear now that Apple is going to make a play for live sports. We talked about them buying

00:18:04   a catalog and old stuff, and maybe that's not their strategy, but their strategy is original

00:18:10   programming and that includes live sports programming. Frankly, if you hire somebody

00:18:16   to head up a sports division, you at least have some plans to do something related to sports.

00:18:20   Which I would expect more than what they've done sports-related content before,

00:18:27   which is ultimately documentary-type focus stuff is what they're looking to do,

00:18:31   and you probably don't need a sports person for that part of the division. It's a different idea.

00:18:36   MATT: Yeah, and there's lots of different sports out there. I mean, there's the major sports in

00:18:40   America, but they're also the off-brand sports. So that's, do they sign a deal to do the NFL in

00:18:46   Europe? Do they sign a deal to do the, you know, Bundesliga in America, right? Like, there's a lot

00:18:52   of different angles to take here, but as when they hired those two guys from Sony to do original

00:19:00   programming, we knew they were going to do original programming, and this looks very much like

00:19:05   Apple is absolutely going to do sports. It's just a matter of what and when.

00:19:09   MATT and if they're able to even get the deals that they want, right? Like, they can have all the intention that they like, but maybe

00:19:16   nobody wants to sell them the rights, or they just won't pay enough. We'll see.

00:19:20   MATT As the Discord just pointed out, they missed their chance on the Marvel races,

00:19:24   because John Oliver got that, so they're going to have to wait for the next cycle of sponsorship for

00:19:28   Marvel races.

00:19:29   MATT There's a new Apple TV+ show called "Dear...". It's been released. I hadn't heard about this.

00:19:37   I don't know if Apple had announced this one before now. It seems like it is probably a relatively

00:19:43   small production. It was influenced by their Apple Watch marketing campaign. Do you remember the ads

00:19:49   they did where they featured letters written by customers talking about how the Watch changed

00:19:54   their lives? This is particularly notable because two upgrade listeners have been featured in those

00:19:58   ads, which is a funny thing. This series features stars like Oprah Winfrey, Stevie Wonder, and Lin-Manuel

00:20:04   Miranda, and it features letters from fans whose lives have been impacted by these individuals.

00:20:10   So, I guess I haven't seen the show yet, but I can imagine what it is they read a letter and

00:20:15   talk about it. This feels, from a conceptual standpoint, a lot more akin to the stuff that

00:20:20   Apple did before TV+, like, not very...

00:20:25   JAYLEE Yeah. Little Planet of the Apps,

00:20:27   little Carpool Karaoke, like, we had that campaign, so let's make a show out of it.

00:20:31   RYAN Yeah, just like from where the idea came from, it's not like the HBO level of... I mean,

00:20:40   the show, I bet, is really heartwarming and can be good, but I just mean from where the idea

00:20:47   came from doesn't really feel the same as, like, For All Mankind, right? It's a different level of

00:20:55   TV. This is less prestige TV, right, which is what they've been trying to do, it seems,

00:20:59   with their other stuff. I just found that interesting. I guess they just figured, like,

00:21:04   "Oh, we have these creators that we have these relationships with, we had this great idea,

00:21:10   why don't we just put these two things together?" It was just intriguing to me that, one, it came

00:21:14   out, seemingly came out of nowhere, and two, it features a kind of production

00:21:20   style that seems to be stuff that Apple had moved away from already.

00:21:26   MATT: Yeah, I agree. That's a weird one, but hey, you know, you need to... You're programming

00:21:33   a spread of stuff, right? To appeal to different audiences and all of that. Like, I get it. I get

00:21:37   it. It's not my cup of tea. RYAN And Netflix has purchased the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood.

00:21:42   MATT Boom.

00:21:43   RYAN There's a bunch of details in this, but I guess the point is, they can now show their movies

00:21:48   in a theater, they can now get into the Oscars. MATT Yeah, so this is a beautifully restored

00:21:53   historic theater. It was built in the '20s, I want to say, and about 10 years ago, an organization

00:22:00   bought it to rehab it because it's a historic landmark. And now they've sold it for an

00:22:05   undisclosed sum to Netflix. I hope they made some money on this. I think that that would be great,

00:22:10   and it's a great thing for Netflix to become the steward of this. The goal here... So,

00:22:14   it seems like, I mean, how often... Netflix does have movies a lot, though, right? Like,

00:22:19   this could literally be the Netflix movie theater, where if you want to see a Netflix movie,

00:22:23   you can go to the Netflix movie theater, which is the Egyptian, and it also means that every single

00:22:28   movie that they show there will have a qualifying run for the Academy Awards, which is sort of the

00:22:32   point, although I think it's a fun idea. MATT Wouldn't it be cool if you could see movies for

00:22:36   free if you were a Netflix subscriber? That would be fun.

00:22:39   RYAN That would be cool. Like, sign up and get a ticket and all of that, but I like the idea

00:22:43   that... And you know, you got to pay for popcorn or something. But I also like the idea of going to

00:22:49   filmmakers about Netflix and saying, "Yes, Netflix is buying this, and this is going to be a Netflix

00:22:55   original, but we will have at least our one theater. We'll have a theatrical run. If you

00:23:02   want to do an opening night and come and do that..." MATT They could do premieres now.

00:23:05   RYAN Exactly right. Like, do that, and then it appears on Netflix, too, but we also did that.

00:23:11   It's interesting. I wonder if they're going to do any... Because it was retrofit to do revivals and

00:23:16   old prints and stuff like that, if their plan is to program the theater but also have it in their

00:23:22   back pocket to screen movies, or if it's literally going to become Netflix's Egyptian Theater and

00:23:27   it's just, you know, it's the lovebirds this week. MATT So it's actually a bit of both. So

00:23:33   they... The company American Cinematheque, the organization that bought the theater to restore

00:23:39   it, they are going to continue to program the theater and will run...

00:23:44   RYAN Oh, good. So there you go. MATT Their own content, and then Netflix will also be...

00:23:48   RYAN So the revival... Yeah, because they can play, like, nitrate film and stuff there,

00:23:52   which is super rare and old and flammable. So that's great. So basically, Netflix has a venue

00:23:58   that they can use when they want to put something in for a award competition, but otherwise, it's

00:24:02   also still going to be a venue, because it's a huge, classic movie house for classic movies.

00:24:10   That's awesome. But yes, Netflix is... Everybody... Soon, every streaming service will own a

00:24:17   fancy theater in Hollywood. That's, I think, where this world is going. Yeah.

00:24:21   MATT Yeah, because they might all be up for sale soon, unfortunately.

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00:25:31   MATT I know it's not in my home. It's outside my home.

00:25:33   OONA Yeah, that's best.

00:25:34   MATT Just slightly outside my home. But yes, it's great. I love it. I have made several pizzas. I

00:25:42   actually need to make some pizza dough this week so that we can have more pizzas. And the thing

00:25:45   about it is I've been cooking in my oven on a pizza stone for a couple of decades now. It's

00:25:51   literally the pizza stone was a wedding present. So I guess 25-plus years now. But 500 degrees,

00:25:57   500 degrees is good, but it's not like what a professional pizza oven would have. And so the

00:26:03   Ooni will go up to 700 degrees, something like that. It's very, very high if you want it to be

00:26:11   that way. And that means the dough actually cooks fast and it's like a big broiler. So the top gets

00:26:16   all crispy and happens really fast. You stick it in and then turn it around a couple of times. And

00:26:21   then after a minute, you pull it out and you've got a pizza, which actually encourages you to

00:26:25   make multiple smaller pizzas, which is what I do, which is fun instead of having to separate where

00:26:31   the pepperoni ends from where my son's plain cheese pizza is going to be. Just make two.

00:26:36   You can just make two pizzas because it only takes a couple of minutes. I love pizza. This is super

00:26:41   easy. It's using literally the same propane canister as my gas grill. Just unhook it from

00:26:47   one and hook it up to the other and it works fine. And it's been a lot of fun to use it. And

00:26:53   there's been a lot of pizza made, but I need to make more. Don't we all always. Ooni pizza oven

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00:27:39   pizza to your own backyard. So go to Ooni.com and use the code upgrade for 10% off. Our thanks to

00:27:44   Ooni pizza ovens for their support of this show and Relay FM. So this is our last week that we get

00:27:51   to have the opportunity really to talk about wishes without there being competition involved.

00:27:57   There's no stakes on the line this week. So I thought that we could actually, I think,

00:28:02   focus on the platform that could be argued and I believe deserves the most love this year,

00:28:08   which is iPad OS because it's the newest platform if you're going to consider it that, right? Like

00:28:14   it's a brand new platform and the iPad has a lot of places that it can gain to give it,

00:28:21   to really make it what it should be and what people want it to be. Yeah, I think the truth is that

00:28:25   the iPad has this really interesting combination of being a fairly young platform and also have a

00:28:33   very ambitious platform. And so even though Apple Watch is a younger platform and iPhone is not that

00:28:39   much older, like first off the iPhone took the brunt of the focus of iOS development for a long

00:28:45   time and the watch is not quite as ambitious in a lot of ways. There's not to say that there aren't

00:28:51   things that could be improved about the watch because it absolutely could be, but I look at

00:28:56   the iPad specifically and I think it's this combination where Apple is really trying to

00:29:02   make it a more professional platform on the iPad Pro end and it just seems like there's the most

00:29:09   space for them. Of all of Apple's platforms, it's the one that I look at and say, "I could write a

00:29:16   list a mile long of things that you should do on this platform." And they can't do them all,

00:29:20   but it's the easiest one when you're looking at a wish list, easiest one to fill out.

00:29:26   So I put a link in the show notes to an actual wish list that you spoke about. Macworld and also

00:29:34   there's an episode of App Stories that I enjoyed recently where Federico and Joan went through

00:29:38   theirs and I'm kind of putting a lot of that stuff, some of my own thoughts together and

00:29:42   we'll just talk about a few key areas that could see some love and we would love to see.

00:29:47   And who knows if any of these will end up making their way into draft picks next week,

00:29:52   not impossible. One of them is keyboard improvements. I feel like everyone can agree

00:29:57   that we have really great cursor support on iPadOS now. It's rock solid, super thought well from the

00:30:04   ground up. It's got basically all the features that you would want. I'm super happy with it.

00:30:09   I don't have any real improvements that I would want from the cursor, but the keyboard is an area

00:30:15   that could see some additional love and care like the cursor got. We have great keyboard options,

00:30:21   the hardware keyboards are great. The fact that we can connect USB keyboards, Bluetooth keyboards,

00:30:26   you can go wild with it. I think it would be great to see the keyboard more embraced across the

00:30:31   entire system. So allowing us to have keyboard shortcuts and stuff like that, but more than the

00:30:37   shortcuts that we have inside of applications. Right? Yeah, I want user assignable keyboard

00:30:45   shortcuts. And right now you can do that, but only with the modifier keys. And there's a very small

00:30:50   number of things that you can choose. So like you can re-modify the globe to be the escape key or

00:30:54   something like that. It's a nice start, but given that Apple's two iPad keyboards don't have a

00:31:01   function row, I really want at the very least, like minimum Apple needs to let me assign keyboard

00:31:09   shortcuts for media control and screen brightness and on the magic keyboard backlight brightness.

00:31:16   Like there need to be keyboard shortcuts. If they're not the function keys, which they're not

00:31:22   because they don't exist, they need to go somewhere. And I'd actually like it to be more

00:31:26   than that. I'd actually like Apple to allow you to assign all sorts of other functions to system-wide

00:31:32   keyboard shortcuts. And I know that that's complicated, but this is a major iPad OS update.

00:31:36   So now's the time to do it and put down the rules of like, what happens if an app wants to have a

00:31:43   particular shortcut, but it's been assigned? Do they mark off a certain set of keys and say,

00:31:48   don't use these in your apps or something like that? Or, you know, there's not like there isn't

00:31:52   complexity here, but the Mac handles it. And I use those assignments on the Mac all the time. I don't

00:32:00   actually adjust my media controls with function keys. I use different keyboard shortcuts that I've

00:32:05   been using for a long time. So I would really like it if Apple would in some way expand to have

00:32:12   system-wide keyboard shortcuts that are user assignable. And then on top of that, yes, I would

00:32:16   also like to be able to assign those to shortcuts, right? So that I could also have some sort of

00:32:21   automation that I can just fire off with a keyboard shortcut. But even if it was the minimum of like,

00:32:25   you press the globe key, you can set it so the globe key is a function key, and then the numbers

00:32:31   become function keys. So I could do, you know, globe six, adjust the volume or whatever they are,

00:32:38   right? So I feel like that's the, it's great that they brought the cursor support essentially forward

00:32:43   from iOS 14 in order to get it out the door for this new product, but like the keyboards still

00:32:48   aren't, you know, there's been no movement there. So that's like the easiest thing, not necessarily

00:32:55   to implement, but the easiest thing to look at and say what's lacking, especially when you've got a

00:33:00   brand new keyboard and trackpad product like they do is the keyboard's not as functional as it

00:33:04   should be. - Yeah, and there are so many areas you could go with it, and it can be purely hidden to

00:33:12   most users, right? Like this could just be a very much pro user thing, and that's great. - Off by

00:33:20   default. - Yep, give us some of those, right? Like this is something that Greg Federighi,

00:33:25   I think he spoke about with Federico on the interview last year when at WWDC on AppStories,

00:33:32   where I think he was talking a little bit about, and I think maybe he spoke about this too

00:33:37   on the talk show, just about the idea that some things can be discoverable easily by the user,

00:33:42   and some things aren't, and it's fine to have both. - Although I would argue that holding down the

00:33:47   globe key and then pressing numbers is even sort of discoverable, or at least easily teachable. I

00:33:53   don't know why that's not a default for the smart keyboard and the magic keyboard, that if you

00:33:58   tap and hold, you hold down that globe key, and then you can quickly adjust volume and stuff like

00:34:03   that. I don't know why they didn't do that, but here we go. Friend of the show, Gee Rambo, did a

00:34:09   whole Twitter thread that was great, where he basically mocked up an interactive emoji picker

00:34:13   for iPadOS, because one of my frustrations with emoji input, especially if you're using a keyboard,

00:34:19   but in general, it's not a very good emoji picker. There are lots of emoji now, and it's hard to find

00:34:25   the one that you want. And he did a beautiful example of using essentially the emoji keyboard

00:34:31   shortcut from macOS to bring up a picker where you can then type in the name of the emoji and

00:34:37   select it and have it automatically insert where you're typing. And that's absolutely how it should

00:34:43   work, especially with a keyboard on iPadOS. So we'll throw that in there too as a keyboard

00:34:47   improvement. Emoji input ought to be way easier than it is now. So talking about keyboard

00:34:53   shortcuts, let's talk about actual shortcuts, the application itself. It's almost a meme at

00:34:58   this point, but folders and organization and shortcuts would be a wonderful thing at this point.

00:35:05   I would take filters on color or tags or whatever. They're like, "No, no, no, folders are old, man.

00:35:12   Now every shortcut can have a color," and it already does, "and a tag, and then you can filter

00:35:16   on those." That's fine. Just give me an organizational principle of some sort so I don't

00:35:21   have this giant list of shortcuts that's just kind of in a big bin, which is what it is now. And I

00:35:26   don't even have that many compared to people like Federico. But yes, and larger than that,

00:35:32   beyond folders, it's things like if you make shortcuts, if you come up with a really clever

00:35:37   chain of 10 items that does a thing and you're like, "Wow, I could use this in a different

00:35:41   shortcut," you can't take it to a different shortcut. Or later in the same shortcut,

00:35:48   you literally can't select all those items and duplicate them. You can't select them all and

00:35:53   then option drag or whatever or copy them and then paste them. It can't be done. The only way you can

00:35:58   really do it is if you're making a new shortcut, you can duplicate the old shortcut in order to

00:36:02   get all of those things and then build your new shortcut around it. It's ridiculous. So,

00:36:08   you know, that's the kind of thing. Also, sharing should be easier. I'm glad they have sharing

00:36:12   because for a while, I think in betas it was gone, but you have to go into the settings and then flip

00:36:17   this super scary sounding switch. It's like, "Danger! People can run things on your iPad.

00:36:22   It's scary." I wish that that was a friendlier kind of thing. And also the one that kills me

00:36:29   and has killed me since the beginning, since it was an app called Workflow, which is, you know,

00:36:35   I appreciate the transparency of when you tap on a shortcut. It opens the shortcuts app and shows you

00:36:41   every single step scrolling by really fast as it runs the shortcut. That's great. I want a little

00:36:47   switch that says, "I don't need to see this. Just run it. I don't need to see the source code of my

00:36:53   apps as I use them scrolling past." Right? Like, I don't need that. So having the ability to,

00:36:59   as a user option, not show all the details of the shortcut as I'm running it, but just do the thing

00:37:06   that I want to do. Yeah, that's why I really love the widget because if you can activate something

00:37:11   from the widget, there's just a little progress bar that fills up and it just does the thing.

00:37:15   I agree. It's the fastest way to run a shortcut, honestly. Oh, trust me, I have built shortcuts

00:37:22   that are meant to be run from a widget. And when you run them by pressing play, even if you run

00:37:27   them, tapping on them in shortcuts versus pressing play while you're in the list, like the scrolling

00:37:33   by thing, it's way slower, right? Because it's going to have to display all the code as you're

00:37:40   going. It's like, "I don't need to see that. I just don't." So I hope that we've, in the life cycle of

00:37:45   shortcuts, there was like the, "Hey, we're now part of Apple. Let's do the basic things to run and

00:37:50   ship with the system." And then the next step was, "We're going to make the language of shortcuts

00:37:55   simpler by having kind of nouns and verbs." Great. That was last year. This year, I'm hoping that

00:38:01   it's the kind of user interface consolidation step that happens where they get, in addition to,

00:38:08   hopefully, keyboard shortcut activation, the ability to just make it easier to make and

00:38:12   organize these things. Yeah. I would like automation to be pushed a little bit further.

00:38:18   For my phone, for my iPad to be looking for triggers and operating on them itself.

00:38:24   That's a great one. For example, if I say to shortcuts, "Oh, hey, every time you see an item

00:38:32   on this calendar, run this shortcut." So then every time I sit down to record a podcast, I've

00:38:39   already got everything set. It's already running all my time as my phone's already on, do not

00:38:43   disturb because it's looking at the calendar for me. And doing those things, you can have it

00:38:50   be really slow to start. Stuff like calendar events, email, things that Apple can control

00:38:55   to a degree if you want to take baby steps into this. But allowing shortcuts to really operate

00:39:01   and work on its own whilst also not telling me, "Don't give me a notification that I have to tap

00:39:07   or whatever to make it work." Just take that next step and go a bit further. I mean, and while we're

00:39:12   also talking about shortcuts, before I forget, give me shortcuts on the Mac too, please. I would like

00:39:16   that. Yeah, sure. I will also say recurring events is a thing that shortcuts really lacks right now.

00:39:22   The idea, and I see that people ask, "Can I do this thing where a shortcut waits for this thing

00:39:27   to happen and then acts?" And the answer is no, you can't. You can't with a very limited set of

00:39:33   things. You can't say, "I have a shortcut that checks for a status of something. And if the

00:39:38   status is true, it does something. And I want that to fire off, it's what on a computer we would call

00:39:44   like a cron job or something. I want to fire it off every half hour. Or I want to fire it off

00:39:49   every 15 minutes between the hours of this. Or I want it to fire off every four hours. Or I want

00:39:54   to fire it off at two and four and 6 p.m." I have these home automations that are incredibly detailed

00:40:03   and I can only run them one time a day. I can say like, "At 3 p.m., do this." And that's really bad

00:40:11   because you can't even duplicate home automations. So I can't duplicate it and make another one at 2

00:40:15   p.m. and another one at 1 p.m. But it's just, ugh. So stuff like that that makes really,

00:40:21   for automations to work, sometimes you do need automations that can repeat and check for a status

00:40:27   of something. Or even better yet, be fired off, as you say, fired off when something happens, which

00:40:33   would be great. So yes, all of that on the list. More shortcuts, please.

00:40:37   MATT PORTER >> Now, had you thought much about multitasking changes at all for iPad?

00:40:43   CHUCK LAMBERT >> I am not as angry about multitasking interface than as other people are.

00:40:54   Like, my big one is the clarity over keyboard focus and having better keyboard, to go back

00:41:01   to keyboards for a bit, you know, better keyboard multitasking. So the idea that I could not only see

00:41:08   which app, if I'm in split view, is active and that my keyboard, my key commands are going to go to,

00:41:13   but also to be able to toggle between them. So it's like, "Oh, I'm over in Safari right now. I

00:41:20   want to be in Notes," you know, and do something to get over there. And you can't really do that

00:41:24   either. So I don't necessarily want to see a complete rethink of all multitasking.

00:41:30   I don't like the multi-window thing that is built. And if they want to do a rethink of multitasking,

00:41:35   I'll welcome it. Like, I would love to see it. I don't think multitasking is great right now. But

00:41:41   maybe I'm just trying to compromise and be realistic about it and say, "I really want them to

00:41:47   fix some of the very annoying things about it." But if they've got a new concept for it, I'm all

00:41:54   ears. I'm ready to hear it. MATT PORTER >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's iOS 14. I would expect

00:41:59   some refinements in iOS 14. But if Apple truly are working on an overhaul of the system,

00:42:05   I think that that is further down the line. I do genuinely expect there to be some things that

00:42:13   are tidied up or highlighted in different ways. But I don't expect there to be a big sweeping

00:42:19   change. It just seems like it's not now, honestly. And that would be such a large thing

00:42:26   that I could even imagine them kind of like what happened with a bunch of things that we got in the

00:42:33   first iPad OS and the cursor support of like, this was supposed to be in 14, but they've ended up

00:42:39   pushing it because it's too large. You know, and the rumors, the thing we're going to talk about

00:42:43   next, which is like changes to the home screen, was apparently going to be in 13, but they pushed

00:42:47   it because it's so large. I would be really surprised to see Apple make significant changes

00:42:52   to the home screen and multitasking in the same release. I think they would pick one and do that.

00:42:59   It would surprise me to see all of that change in one, because that's at that point, you basically

00:43:05   feel like you're using a completely different operating system to the one that you had before,

00:43:09   might be a bit too much. One of the things that you can sometimes see with Apple is that they

00:43:15   will bring a suite of features in because they're all kind of like connected. So you'll be like,

00:43:20   well, why did they add this? Oh, it's because they also added this. And there's an item that's

00:43:25   later on our list, which is about the famous sort of, what if they support an external display? So

00:43:30   you can put a big screen attached to an iPad. And now that you've got keyboard and mouse support,

00:43:35   you don't have to just mirror it. You can just run your app on that. And I actually run into this

00:43:41   sometimes when I'm using my 12.9-inch iPad Pro in a vertical orientation, which is, I sometimes

00:43:50   think, why can't I just run apps at top and bottom instead of side to side? Why can't I do that?

00:43:57   Oh, that's a very good point. Right? So that, well, and this is the thing is then I look at my

00:44:04   giant, you know, iMac screen here and I think about a big screen, maybe not this big for an

00:44:09   iPad as an external display. And I think, well, if you're going to do external display support,

00:44:14   are you going to force people to only run one or two apps side by side left and right? Or would

00:44:21   you maybe let people cut up the screen a little bit differently? And I could probably make a case

00:44:26   that that would be, you know, if you're going to do external display support, maybe you add the

00:44:30   ability to have some more, some sort of different ways to organize your multitasking, but not,

00:44:36   not necessarily a total multitasking overhaul as much as a, you know, we're going to let you

00:44:42   subdivide the iPad screen top and bottom and on external displays, you're going to be able

00:44:48   to subdivide it a couple of different ways. So you could run four things at once or two things

00:44:52   at once or whatever it is. I could maybe see that, but I agree with you that it seems that would be a

00:44:58   lot in a period where I think they're going to want to not bite off more than they can chew right now

00:45:04   to redesign the home screen and multitasking does seem like a lot. I will touch on the external

00:45:09   display support thing. I would really like that personally, like to be much more than it is now,

00:45:14   whether it's like a second screen. They got all the pieces now. You can literally dock your iPad

00:45:19   to a docking station with a keyboard and a mouse and run the apps and have it all work and make

00:45:23   sense. So I would be honestly, I would be shocked if this isn't in there because everything they did

00:45:31   in the last cycle enabled this. So why, why not do it? Unless they feel like there are some serious

00:45:38   multitasking issues and they don't want to deal with those right now. Because I guess I would get

00:45:42   that, but yeah, it's time. Not everybody's going to want to do that. Again, the whole story of the

00:45:48   iPad is about it being a flexible computing device and Federico uses it in a bunch of different ways

00:45:55   and I use it in some different ways. And one of the ways that he uses it that I don't is docked.

00:45:59   But right now the docking experience at a desk is not great to an external monitor and they could

00:46:07   fix that pretty. And then that just expands the number of use cases for the iPad. If you do that,

00:46:11   you can now, you know, you got your keyboard and trackpad, you've got it as a touch tablet,

00:46:15   you got it with the Apple pencil, and now you've got it at a desk with a big monitor. That's great.

00:46:18   Fantastic. And so then the home screen changes, um, stuff like widgets, documents. I would really

00:46:24   love to see the iPad OS home screen become a mix between the best of iOS and the best of macOS.

00:46:33   Like the ability to have app icons, but then also folders from files just on the desktop and then

00:46:41   some interactive, really usable widgets that I can use basically elements of applications without

00:46:48   opening the application. Like I would love a text entry box for my to do manager and my calendar

00:46:54   just on the home screen. Right. So I can just enter those in and really make the iPad OS

00:47:00   home screen much more of a destination to do things than just a place to open applications.

00:47:07   That's what I would like to see. That's great. And you could see how they might do that by sort of

00:47:12   expanding what a widget is capable of so that it's just, it's more, you can, you can do more with

00:47:18   widgets than, you know, now that, especially now that you can put widgets, it's only last year that

00:47:23   you could put widgets on the home screen. So that was a start. Yeah, it was definitely a start, but

00:47:28   it's not enough. Right? Like this should take some serious rethinking and some of it should find its

00:47:33   way to the iPhone too. You know, this, this model of, of these grids of applications that are forced

00:47:41   to fit in a certain way and they cannot be adapted like that, that model, I think is time for a

00:47:47   change. It's been long enough that we've had that. And there are real useful things you could do.

00:47:53   It's not just change for the sake of change, but there could be significant improvements

00:47:58   that could be made to the, the springboard experience, uh, with a change in iOS.

00:48:03   I mentioned the files kind of like adding maybe files or documents to, to the home screen.

00:48:11   The files app should always be improved. It, it, it still feels like it needs a lot.

00:48:19   I was just going to say that the files app, like I don't even think I have a list this year

00:48:25   of new features for the files app. I feel like they added a lot of new features.

00:48:30   My request for the files app is it needs to work. It needs to work better. It's, it's unreliable.

00:48:36   It's messy. It just needs love. It needs to be better. It feels slow. And, and you know,

00:48:42   when you use finder, you just feel like you're in control of the file system. When I use files,

00:48:48   I feel like I am using the file system, but dragging it through molasses. Like everything

00:48:54   is more slow. Everything needs more taps. You know, you end up with these weird windows that

00:48:59   pop up and stuff, stuff stops working. Yeah. Things just are completely unreliable. And then

00:49:04   you don't know how to get there and you have to remove like a server and add it back in and you

00:49:09   drag things from one place to another, hoping they'll copy. But there is often no feedback

00:49:13   about whether the file exists or has been moved or anything. It's better with certain

00:49:20   instances than others. Like if you're just on your iPad, dragging to different folders,

00:49:25   it's pretty straightforward, but if you're using a network or a cloud or something like that,

00:49:30   it's just a mess. And so I'm glad they added all those features last year. It's great. Thank you.

00:49:35   Just make it better. Just make it more reliable. I just want to rely on it and have it work with

00:49:40   all of my stuff. And I know where the files are and I know I can add a favorite that is a folder

00:49:45   on my server and it stays there and doesn't vanish sometimes. And so that I can never use favorites.

00:49:51   That's been a case favorites in the files apps been broken for years now. So yeah, better. How

00:49:57   about that better? Just make it better. Has gotten consistently better every year, right? From not

00:50:02   having it to having it and then having the improvements. But it started at such a low point.

00:50:08   There's still is so much more needed for this part of the operating system, which is a very

00:50:13   important part of the operating system. Um, I'm happy that it exists, but I definitely want

00:50:18   more from it. Um, what about pro apps? Do you expect that we're going to see

00:50:24   any significant Apple made pro apps? Well, my expectations will be revealed in the draft next

00:50:30   week, Myke, but I don't know. I, you know, part, part of me once, um, a sign, like I'm not going

00:50:39   to use X code or, you know, alternate name for iPad based development tool on, I'm not going to

00:50:46   use it, but I, I would welcome it. I would welcome it. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be

00:50:51   final cut. It doesn't have to be logic. It could be X code or X code for iPad, which is a subset.

00:50:58   Yada, yada, yada. I just want to see Apple make a commitment to pro apps instead of what they

00:51:06   currently have, which is garage band and I movie and Swift playgrounds, right? Like if you believe

00:51:14   your platform is pro, why are your pro apps not on it? So I hope they will make the commitment

00:51:20   to at least one of those, but if I had to put money down, well, we'll see next week. But right

00:51:25   now my, I just, I, I, it hasn't happened yet, so I'm really pessimistic about it, but I hope I'm

00:51:32   wrong. Um, in my Mac world story, I mentioned the terminal too, which is, I know it's wild.

00:51:36   That one was a surprise to me. And people are like, well, you can't do that because of security.

00:51:41   It's like, I don't know. I mean, there's ISH, which is a, which is a third party, uh, app that,

00:51:47   that basically has emulating a PC and it's got a sandbox and it's got access to the file sandbox.

00:51:53   So you can see files on the file system, but, and then you're running, you know, Unix commands

00:51:59   inside it. Like Apple could build a terminal, which would be very helpful for a lot of developers,

00:52:06   actually. Um, that was secure inside iPadOS if they wanted to. And it's like, well, why not do

00:52:13   that? Like I have so many things that I do on my Mac that are running little shell scripts or little

00:52:18   Pearl scripts or, or a little, you know, whatever they are and, and then little Unix commands.

00:52:23   And they're great. And I'd use them in shortcuts on the iPad if I could. Um, but the only way to

00:52:29   do that now is to actually go to a remote server via SSH and do it there and then take the data

00:52:34   back, which is not so great. So, um, sure. I just thought I'd pile that on of like, show me you're

00:52:41   serious. That's really, I don't even want to request specifics here. I really just want Apple

00:52:46   to show us that they're serious about the iPad as a professional platform in whatever form they

00:52:51   choose. Whatever. Take your pick, whatever. Yeah. This is the, I don't think I want these.

00:53:00   I don't think we're going to get the one that I want, which is logic, right? Not yet, but I do

00:53:06   feel like it's time to show your hand a little bit with one of them. Right. It is exactly that.

00:53:14   Yeah, exactly. Just show, show us that you're serious about it. I don't care what the

00:53:19   demonstration is. It can be symbolic. It could literally be, we plan to bring, uh, you know,

00:53:27   by the time you developers are in San Jose next year for WWDC, um, there'll be an app that you

00:53:35   can use to build apps on your iPad. Right. That's all. Or, or we intend to ship versions of logic and

00:53:42   final cut by the end of the year, like whatever, whatever the demonstration is, just give us a

00:53:47   demonstration that you believe in this platform that you are the steward of. Um, I also want to,

00:53:54   my personal, this is not a pro app, but my personal frustration is that the health app isn't on iPad.

00:53:59   Like I still don't understand it. Like I use my iPad all the time for stuff and I want to look

00:54:05   up health data. And I actually, there are a couple of devices that I would probably rather attach to

00:54:10   my iPad via Bluetooth that are health devices and log the data there rather than use my phone

00:54:15   because of just where my iPad is in my house versus where I keep my phone. And, uh, the health

00:54:21   app just isn't, isn't there. I don't understand it. I want, I mean, I actually want the health

00:54:25   app on the Mac too. I think that that the health app needs to be on all of Apple's platforms and

00:54:29   I'm kind of baffled about why it isn't. So I'll throw it in there too. And look, no iPad wishlist

00:54:35   will be complete from the two of us who are asking for better support and the system level for audio.

00:54:40   So we can finally record podcasts on iOS effectively. That's it. I mean, we've,

00:54:45   we've detailed it before. It's pretty basic. They need, they need an audio API. You need to be able

00:54:51   to record different things in different apps. I would love anything that would enable something

00:54:55   like audio hijack to exist on iPad, but failing that I would like to be able to be on Skype on the

00:55:02   iPad and also have a recording app open recording my microphone. And ideally also recording Skype

00:55:08   two separate tracks at the same time. Like audio was built very simply for the iPhone in the early

00:55:16   days and has not been touched and they, they gotta do it. They gotta do it. They won't. We'll be,

00:55:21   we'll be left behind again, but, um, we're going to keep beating that drum until they hear it.

00:55:27   Cause drums make sound. So that's our wishlist. It will be super interesting to see how many of

00:55:31   those pop up next week in the draft. Yes. And how many we're so despairing about that we're not

00:55:36   going to bother picking them because we know Apple's not going to do it. All right. This

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00:57:28   A couple of weeks ago, Jason said to me, Myke, I want to talk about games on the show,

00:57:34   which is a little surprising to me. I mean, we've dabbled in talking about gaming on this

00:57:38   show every now and then. Uh, but I think that there is a known wide disparity, uh, between

00:57:44   the two of us with video games. I'm much, much more of a gamer than you are. So I want to know

00:57:51   what it, what is the frame of this conversation today? What do you want to talk to me about gaming?

00:57:56   Well, two things struck me back when I said, we should talk about this. And one of them is you

00:58:01   recommended, um, round guard a while ago when we were talking about Apple arcade games. And,

00:58:07   um, I have been playing that a lot. Good. Um, or at least a lot, a lot for me, I really enjoy it.

00:58:13   I recommend it. It's a, it's a lot of fun. Um, and I was thinking about why that game stuck with me

00:58:22   and what other games have stuck with me and what do they have in common and what does that say

00:58:26   about what appeals to me when I'm looking for a game to play. And then the other piece of data

00:58:32   is all of my friends talking about animal crossing. Yeah. And playing that and selling fruit

00:58:41   on their islands and stuff for bells. Um, which is very similar to when all of my friends were

00:58:49   talking about Stardew Valley. Yep. Arguably animal crossing is a bigger deal than Stardew

00:58:53   was at that time, but it's a similar thing. They're similar ish games as well. Right there,

00:58:59   you're tending to your stuff and you're making transactions and you're earning stuff and all of

00:59:04   that. And, um, I, in a moment of self-reflection, uh, while I was thinking of why I, uh, Roundguard

00:59:11   appealed to me, I also asked myself, why do, why does hearing what people are doing in animal

00:59:17   crossing, um, completely repel me. Okay. Okay. And turn, turn me off and be like, wow, I don't

00:59:24   want to do that. Cause literally, literally I hear people talk about animal crossing and I think

00:59:32   it sounds like a lot of work. It sounds like a game where you have to do work. And I think to

00:59:38   myself, I don't want to do work. I do enough work. I don't want to do more work. I don't want to

00:59:44   grind on things. And I think that there is truth in the fact that there are a lot of games where

00:59:50   the whole idea is that you grind, you do this and then this and then this, and you get a thing.

00:59:55   If you think about it, Jason, all games are someone's work.

00:59:59   Wow. Okay. They're all jobs of some kind. Like some people are little balls that bounce around

01:00:04   in a dungeon. Yeah. Like a Roundguard. They're just trying to make their gold, you know,

01:00:08   like in Roundguard, they're just trying to make their gold. You know, like if you play a racing

01:00:11   game, that's someone's job. They're just a racing driver, you know, it's all someone's job. Okay.

01:00:16   All right. I'm okay. That's good. What, so, so what are the games? So we'll, we'll get into like

01:00:21   the commonality of the games that I like, but what are the games that you like? Just so we're clear

01:00:25   about what you like and what I like and how they're different. So my gaming habits fall into

01:00:31   like two and a half areas. So the big kind of my, my main, uh, favorite type of game are large open

01:00:41   world games that you have tons to do, typically in such a way that you can make your own games within

01:00:48   the game. So examples of these include Zelda Breath of the Wild, Stardew Valley, Grand Theft Auto,

01:00:53   the Pokemon games and Animal Crossing. These are these large open world games where there is

01:01:00   typically a structure, but you can also kind of veer off and do things in your own order,

01:01:05   in your own path. In my opinion, Breath of the Wild is the very, very best game for this in the

01:01:12   sense that you can quite literally run into the castle that features the final boss as your first

01:01:18   action in the game if you want to. Like I've never played a game like that. You know, you can play a

01:01:22   game like a Grand Theft Auto game, they shut off parts of the world. You have to get to a certain

01:01:27   point before they open them up. Um, but that's, that's like my main type of game because I really

01:01:32   love to have a thing that the game developers presented to me as my path. But also if I want to,

01:01:37   I can go and spend time doing this other thing so I can approach the game how I want. My other large

01:01:43   area of gaming is mobile games that you can just pick up and put down with infinite replayability.

01:01:47   And some of my favorites here are Peggle, which is one of my very favorite games of all time.

01:01:52   Uh, Roundguard is heavily influenced by Peggle. Um, other examples of threes, Flip-Flop Solitaire,

01:01:58   the Altos games, both Adventure and Odyssey, and Hold Down. Um, I also like some, uh, puzzle and

01:02:06   sports games that are kind of on larger platforms. I was thinking of stuff like Portal, the Tony Hawk

01:02:11   games, Need for Speed and Burnout. That's like my half category. Um, but my, the main games that I

01:02:18   gravitate towards are the open world games and the infinite replay, infinitely replayable mobile

01:02:24   games. Yeah. So for me, the ones that you mentioned second are the ones that are the one, are the one,

01:02:31   they work for me. They work for me. So Groundguard, Altos Odyssey, I played Altos Odyssey, got, uh,

01:02:36   maxed out top level on that. Flip-Flop Solitaire, I still play a lot. Um, Mini Metro and Mini

01:02:42   Motorway. Those are, um, those are both games that I enjoy a lot. I played Portal and Portal 2 all

01:02:48   the way through and that's, I'll come back to that, but I think that they, um, that that's even similar

01:02:52   in some ways. And what they all have in common is that you can invest a lot of time in these games,

01:02:57   but the way you do it is in a series of short sessions with a beginning and an ending. And I

01:03:04   really like that. I was actually thinking about back when I played first person shooters a lot,

01:03:09   and I was far more inclined to do online play than I was to play through the story.

01:03:15   And, and back in the day, the stories in, in the early days of first person shooters were more

01:03:21   level-like, where you would like be on a level and then you'd solve it and then you'd move on.

01:03:26   And those work better for me because there's a beginning and an end, but the, the network play

01:03:32   was the stuff that I loved or on a, on a console, if you've got something similar where it's just

01:03:37   two people sitting there and you're playing a game and then there's a winner, because there's

01:03:41   a beginning and there's an end. And if you have more time and more inclination to keep playing,

01:03:45   you say, you want to go again? All right, let's go again. As opposed to kind of the open-endedness

01:03:51   of it. Like I'm playing Life is Strange 2 right now, which, um, although it has episodes and all

01:03:58   of that, it feels very much like a long open-ended story. And at some point I just have to say,

01:04:04   I can't play this anymore right now. I'm going to put it down. And that's not as appealing to me as

01:04:10   doing a run in Alto's Odyssey or playing a level or a whole playthrough of Roundguard and getting

01:04:17   to a point and saying, okay, I'm going to stop here or it's over now. And so for me, there's

01:04:22   something about like having to have a beginning and an end so I can, I can pick it up, I can play

01:04:26   it and then there's an end where I can walk away. And, you know, although I do enjoy the Syracusean

01:04:34   artsy-fartsy games that are two, three, four hours long, sometimes longer, like Life is Strange 2 is

01:04:40   an example of that, the original Life is Strange, which I really liked, but it's harder for me to

01:04:44   get into them and to find time for them. And that's the other piece of this, right, which is

01:04:48   the iPad is my primary game platform. And the reason for that is I can play on the iPad anywhere

01:04:56   and I don't interfere with other people. And when I'm playing on the computer, I have to come out

01:05:02   into the garage and turn on the computer and sit here in my chair and play a game with the door

01:05:07   closed probably, right? And on a console, I'm like in the middle of the living room playing on a

01:05:13   console, which means that if anybody else wants to be in the living room or do anything in the living

01:05:17   room, they've got my game in the way, which I don't like. It's, I would much rather it just be

01:05:24   me and my game. So the iPad is perfect for that because I can play on that iPad on the couch,

01:05:31   on the bed, in the hammock, like outside, like anywhere I can play. And that's the other piece

01:05:40   of it is just being able to pick it up and play it at any point rather than having to like carve out

01:05:45   dedicated time. Because I think in my life, Lauren and I were talking about this yesterday, I think

01:05:50   we don't like the idea of, okay, I'm going to not spend time with you now and go off for a few hours

01:05:57   and play a game. And so we don't do that. But I think, and I don't have an answer here, but I

01:06:04   think psychologically the big thing for me is having some feeling of kind of completion in a

01:06:12   short period of time. And it's okay if you're building to something, right? Because Altos,

01:06:18   you are building to doing all of those different tricks and getting to the top level. And then

01:06:22   Roundguard, you're trying to get not only to win and to ideally win with a maximized amount of gold,

01:06:27   but also to gather all the relics, right? Like there are long-term goals, but they're all

01:06:33   put together by short-term functions. And then something like Flip-Flop or Mini Metro,

01:06:38   you know that game's not going to last more than five minutes, 10 minutes. And so you play it and

01:06:43   then you're done and you move on with your life. It's just as interesting because the way that you

01:06:49   describe it would like kind of suggest that your gaming habits are more quote-unquote casual, but

01:06:56   you don't play games exclusively that are considered casual games, right? Because you do

01:07:05   play successfully much larger games that quote-unquote gamers play, right? Games like a Portal,

01:07:13   right? And you can complete them. It's not like you're bad at those types of games.

01:07:16   - Because again, Portal, my real limitation with Portal was that I had to play it on a computer.

01:07:22   And so I had to carve out the time, but the actual game worked for me because you play a level and

01:07:26   you solve it. And then you say to yourself, "Do I want to do another level?" And if the answer is yes,

01:07:32   you play another level and then you walk away, which is great. So that Portal is a good example

01:07:36   where I thought, okay, it's not entirely about the context of like where I'm playing. And as somebody

01:07:43   pointed out in the Discord, it's absolutely intriguing to me, this idea that is gaining steam

01:07:49   of using your console as the game engine, but streaming it to your iPad.

01:07:57   - Right, right.

01:07:57   - So you can play it somewhere else. It's like, I would love, and I don't think PlayStation 4 does

01:08:03   this with the iPad, but like, I'd love to play that Spider-Man game and I have it. But I don't

01:08:08   think I'm gonna, again, go to the room with the PlayStation, turn on the TV, sit down, get out the

01:08:14   controller, all that. Like, maybe there's a way to make that a little more, I don't know if it's

01:08:19   casual, just kind of drop in, but there's definitely something there. And it just, it struck me, like,

01:08:24   why are there games that I like? And there are other games that my friends talk about that I'm

01:08:27   like, wow, I never wanna do that. I never, I literally never wanna play Animal Crossing.

01:08:32   I'm just not, it sounds terrible to me. And I know, I'm not saying that it's bad. I'm saying

01:08:37   that I know within myself that that game does not push the right buttons. That it's not for me.

01:08:44   - Right. There are ways to do this with the PlayStation 4, but they're not super simple.

01:08:50   I think really a big part of the next generation of consoles will be enabling stuff like this,

01:08:56   I think. I think this is gonna be one of the big things for the next version of the Xbox and the

01:09:01   PlayStation is the cloud play stuff, because that's gaining much more steam, no pun intended.

01:09:07   I do expect it to be much more of a thing for Microsoft, especially.

01:09:12   - When Julian was playing Breath of the Wild the first time through, it was on the Wii U. And

01:09:18   he would just sit in the corner of the living room while we were watching TV and play Breath

01:09:22   of the Wild on the Wii U controller. And that was literally, he's streaming it to the first party

01:09:30   controller and playing it on the handheld. And then eventually, he gets, we've got it on Switch

01:09:34   so that he can do that anywhere instead of just within eight feet of the Wii U. Yeah.

01:09:40   - Yeah. So, I mean, I also, I can actually sympathize with this idea. I play way

01:09:48   fewer games now that I live with my partner, right? That I used to before.

01:09:55   - Yeah.

01:09:55   - The idea of like, I don't really wanna spend 10 hours this weekend doing a thing on my own.

01:10:01   I like to do things together.

01:10:03   - Exactly.

01:10:04   - There will be now, like, so the big games for me these days, they are events in that,

01:10:10   like there'll be a few games a year where I will put that time in, but I'm not gonna do it every

01:10:14   day, right? Or every week even. And what I do like, there are games like Stardew and like Animal

01:10:21   Crossing that me and Nadina play together, right? We both play the game, right? So that I like a lot

01:10:27   because then I can put, we can put more time into a game because it's a game that we both enjoy,

01:10:32   but she doesn't enjoy all the games that I enjoy. So I will pick a few games a year where I'm like,

01:10:37   right, I am gonna choose that because this game is that important to me. But it means that I play

01:10:42   less games overall because I'm less likely to dip into an unknown quantity, right? Like a new game,

01:10:48   a new shooter that I've not tried. I don't, I wanna see, you know, or like, it's getting mixed

01:10:54   reviews. So I won't bother. Where before I'll be like, well, maybe I'll like it. Let me give it a

01:10:58   go. I want a new game. So I do that way less than I used to for that reason. But I do still like to

01:11:05   attack these large games more than you do because it is more important to me. So I will find the

01:11:13   time, but it's way less time for a similar reason to you. Yeah. The idea of spending hundreds of

01:11:18   hours on a game, it just turns, it turns me off. And, and which is why I will do for me, it's the

01:11:25   artsy fartsy Syracuse. I like games that I will play a few times a year, but I want somebody to

01:11:31   recommend something and say, this is a good one. Let's do it. And it's like, okay, I'll put in five

01:11:34   or 10 or 20 hours on that one, but I'm only going to do that a couple times a year. And the hundreds

01:11:39   of hours, again, if you want me to play a game for hundreds of hours, what you need to do is be

01:11:44   sneaky like Alto's Odyssey and have it be a bunch of short bursts that I love so much that I just

01:11:51   keep playing it all the time in short bursts, because what I'm not going to do, and this is the

01:11:57   truth. It's what you said. I'm, I'm not going to carve out five hours to go play a game by myself.

01:12:05   It just, I live in a house with three other people and it's not going to happen. And I'm not saying

01:12:11   that that's bad if you do that, dear, dear listener. I'm just saying the way my life is

01:12:16   configured, it's never going to happen. And I cannot tell you how many times I have bought a

01:12:20   game or a console in a game saying, I'm going to play this. I'm so excited and I've never played

01:12:25   it. I bought, I bought Destiny and played for about five hours during the beta and then it launched.

01:12:34   And I, it launched the week of an Apple event, by the way, launched the week that the iPhone launched

01:12:40   and I never played it after that. I literally never played it. I bought the Spider-Man game

01:12:44   for PS4 because I love Spider-Man and that game got such great reviews. And what happened is I

01:12:49   had it for two months in secret and played it for about two hours. And then my son got it for his

01:12:55   birthday and played through the entire game in less than a week. And now it's just sitting again.

01:13:00   And will I go back to it? Maybe, but probably not, even though that makes me sad.

01:13:04   - Yeah. I really hope that you do sometimes, for some reason, find yourself playing that game

01:13:10   because I know you would love it. - I know I would. I know. I know. And also I'll throw in

01:13:16   there something that is something I saw on Twitter this week, which is In Defense of Easy Mode.

01:13:24   And I thought, yeah, I'm a believer in that, actually. I'm kind of a believer in,

01:13:28   well, I know that there are hard modes where it's challenging and all that, but I'm never gonna

01:13:35   want that challenge in a game like that. Give it to me in easy mode. Let me enjoy the story. Let me

01:13:40   do the basics that are required to make it feel like I accomplished something. But yes, I admit

01:13:45   it. I want a super easy mode where I can feel like I'm Spider-Man without actually having to have the

01:13:51   reflexes of a spider because I don't. - Then you should set that game to easy mode. I started

01:13:57   playing the game and bumped it down. I don't remember what I started it at, but I do this,

01:14:01   right? Like I'm playing a game. I want to play through it because I want to enjoy it.

01:14:05   And it's too punishing to me. It's like, well, no, I'm gonna bump this down so I can actually

01:14:09   play through. And maybe when I get a bit better at the game, I'll bump it back up again. I like games

01:14:14   that allow you to make the change rather than set it once and not being able to change it.

01:14:20   So that can be, that's a pro tip to people. Games are for enjoying. And if you find yourself being

01:14:26   punished by it, just change the difficulty level and you might enjoy it more. Some people want the

01:14:31   challenge and like more power to you if you do, but not everybody does. All right, let's do some

01:14:37   hashtag ask upgrade questions to round out this episode. Thank you for bringing that topic, Jason.

01:14:42   That went into places I wasn't expecting. That was really fun. This episode is brought to you by

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01:16:03   with no credit card required by going to Pingdom.com/RelayFM. Then use the code upgrade

01:16:08   at checkout when you sign up and you'll get a huge 30% of your first invoice. A thanks to Pingdom

01:16:14   from SolarWinds for their support of this show and RelayFM. All right, we'll finish this episode

01:16:20   off with some #AskUpgrade questions. The first one this week comes from Kevin. Kevin wants to know,

01:16:27   will there be a running score update of the episode 400 draft after each Apple announcement

01:16:33   or is the time capsule sealed? I personally would like to not think about it until episode 400.

01:16:43   Me too. And then have a reveal and just I'm going to forget what we even picked. I have. I've

01:16:48   already forgotten. I can confirm to you right now I have forgotten what has been picked.

01:16:52   So if people want to track it, they're welcome to, but I'd actually rather not know. So like

01:16:57   if something happens that one of us picked, I'd actually rather not even know that we picked it.

01:17:02   I just want to wait 100 weeks and be surprised. Yep. We do need people to let us know as episode

01:17:09   400 approaches just to make sure that we're remembering that we need to check that back

01:17:14   because I also do not guarantee that I will remember. I do have a note in my task manager,

01:17:20   but still, if it pops into your mind or maybe you're listening to this show like at weird times,

01:17:26   people do that, right? They listen to current episodes and go back to old ones. Maybe just by

01:17:30   luck you're around episode 397 or something. Just in real time, just let us know that there's a draft

01:17:37   that we need to redo. Alex asks, "With Apple not having the ability to have in-person time

01:17:42   with developers this year, do you think that iOS 14 could see more focus on the iOS system apps,

01:17:49   this way making developers not having so many things to learn?" Yeah, I think that's a great

01:17:55   point. It will be interesting to see. We've already been thinking that if you look at the

01:18:01   cadence of Apple software releases, this year was a kind of cataclysmic software release cycle,

01:18:08   and then the previous year was a quiet one where they kind of fixed stuff, and then the previous

01:18:12   year was a, again, terrible buggy release cycle. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if the goal with

01:18:19   iOS 14 and with the next version of macOS as well is less reliance on new features and more on

01:18:26   stability and getting things working okay. And that would also mean not unveiling a bazillion

01:18:32   new APIs to developers for whatever the new thing is. I'm sure there will be some, but being kind of

01:18:39   developers, especially after last year where they spent all summer kind of dealing with bugs and are

01:18:44   still not even, there's still people out there who are working on Catalyst apps, and there's going to

01:18:49   be a new version of Catalyst presumably, and they haven't shipped their apps yet. So taking it easy

01:18:56   on that front and instead focusing on some other stuff. I mean, I assume that SwiftUI and maybe

01:19:02   Catalyst will get a bump because they need it, but I could also see this being a year where Apple

01:19:08   retrenches a little bit and kind of focuses on fixing bugs and upgrading its own built-in apps,

01:19:13   and that would be okay. Yeah, definitely. I think I would quite like to see that myself.

01:19:21   Michael asks, "What would you like to see in the next iMac refresh or redesign?"

01:19:27   The bezels have got to come in. I think the iMac design, as nice as it is, the bezels are enormous,

01:19:36   and we live in a world where all the bezels are shrinking and the iMac needs to do that. And I

01:19:43   know people are like, "Oh, well, yeah, but it's a desktop computer. Who cares?" And indeed, who

01:19:47   cares how thin it is? And yet they made it thinner too. But I do think that bringing it in so that

01:19:53   it's more just a screen floating in front of you and not a screen with a big black rectangle around

01:19:57   it and then a big silver rectangle below it, to make that less has to be a design goal. And then

01:20:06   I want the spinning disks out. And it may be that the next iMac even is an ARM Mac, but if not,

01:20:16   then it'll presumably have a T2 and be kind of the modern, like the iMac Pro is.

01:20:23   But those are my top things, is bring the bezels in and get rid of spinning disk support forever.

01:20:29   The visual design is the big thing for me. I mean, I would also like to see something like Face ID,

01:20:34   might be kind of fun. I'd honestly like to see them try something totally different,

01:20:38   but I think they're pretty committed now to the floating screen. I'd like to see them try to do

01:20:42   something like the G4 iMac, right, where there's like a base that has the fancy, you know,

01:20:47   computery stuff in it. And then the screen is just this floating object. That would be pretty awesome.

01:20:54   But I doubt it. I doubt they're going to do that. All right. Next question comes from a block and

01:21:00   they ask, "Are you aware of any family-friendly solutions to share and manage sensitive information

01:21:05   such as social security numbers or billing account numbers, not just text, but documents or files as

01:21:10   well?" I think 1Password for families is a great option for this. I use it for this stuff.

01:21:18   Yeah, I use it too. I'm sure there are other ways of doing it, but that's what we use,

01:21:22   is 1Password. We have a family account and the, you know, all sorts of documents and stuff,

01:21:27   and everybody's passport numbers and all of that stuff is in there.

01:21:30   Yeah, I mean, it's a great thing for it because it's not, it can be numbers and logins and that

01:21:37   kind of stuff, but you can also have scans of stuff, images, like I shared, like, passport

01:21:42   images and stuff like that in there. Like, you can get all kinds of great stuff in that. So,

01:21:46   that's one of the reasons that I use it. I use it for business stuff and family stuff.

01:21:53   Can you do encrypted notes in iOS that are shared?

01:21:57   I know you can do shared notes. I don't know about encrypted notes. Like,

01:22:02   locked. Do you mean like the locked ones? Yeah.

01:22:04   Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if you can.

01:22:07   Never tried that one. But I still would personally prefer 1Password to that

01:22:12   than doing those shared notes. Looks like you can't lock a shared note.

01:22:17   Right. There you go then. Kevin asks, "How is Jason's wife Lauren's..." That's a funny sentence.

01:22:24   iPhone. "How is Lauren's iPhone 10 battery issue?" Kevin had the same issue, but it broke the cellular

01:22:30   circuit, so it was way too expensive to fix. Can we get an update?

01:22:33   I went on Apple's website for support and said the battery expanded and they said, "Okay, send it in."

01:22:41   And they said, "It looks to me like this is a covered issue and we're not going to charge you."

01:22:47   And I sent it in and they sent it, but they sent, I mean, they didn't send it back, right? They sent

01:22:53   a different iPhone 10 with the same specs because I think that's how they do it is they send that

01:22:59   right back to you and then they put the other one in the queue to be refurbed and sent out to someone

01:23:03   else. So we didn't get charged, which I think is only right since it was their battery that expanded

01:23:10   and pushed everything out of the iPhone. So I don't know what method that Kevin used here, but

01:23:19   a swollen iPhone battery, at least in my experience, was something that Apple was...

01:23:25   I would have paid to fix it, but I felt like Apple should fix it because that's like

01:23:29   literally their battery doing damage to the phone and they did. I didn't even have to pay for the

01:23:34   battery swap. Yeah, I think that's how I would expect it. I think that makes sense.

01:23:38   And finally today, Jared asks, "What combination of Twitter and RSS do you use, if any?

01:23:43   How do you see those tools as similar, different, or complementary?"

01:23:47   I'm using RSS more than I used to. I'm using NetNewsWire, the new open source version of

01:23:55   NetNewsWire, primarily on my iPad with a limited number of stuff that I'm subscribed to. And it is

01:24:03   the first time I've used RSS regularly in a long time. But I use that sort of like at a certain

01:24:09   time of day, like in the morning or in the evening where I'm sitting down and I want to look and see

01:24:14   what I can read, whereas Twitter kind of comes and goes throughout the day. So breaking news

01:24:20   and things from sources that are not my go-to sources happen on Twitter, and then my go-to

01:24:25   sources happen a couple of times a day in NetNewsWire. And that is also where I do things

01:24:30   like compile links for Liftoff. Like I've got a bunch of space RSS feeds in there and those will

01:24:36   get shared out of there into the Liftoff Tumblr and things like that. They'll come from there.

01:24:42   But Twitter is more breaking news and sources that are outside my usual set. What about you?

01:24:49   Exactly the same. So I use RSS now and I use Reader. But the idea of like I have stuff in

01:24:57   there that I definitely want to make sure I check these sources, or these are sources

01:25:02   for good news for me for shows. So I really like that I have that there as like this is where I

01:25:10   know I can go to get information if I'm looking for it. And I will check it maybe once a day,

01:25:15   once every two days for me, depends on what shows that I'm recording at a time. And then I will use

01:25:20   Twitter for that exact stuff, right? Like breaking news, other sources, getting different types of

01:25:25   information. And also like news sources that aren't necessarily like, I know I'm going to have to have

01:25:32   checked this one to make sure that I'm prepared for a show. Yeah, so yeah, very, very similar,

01:25:37   very similar. All right, so I think that's it for this week's episode. You can send in Ask

01:25:43   Upgrade questions with the hashtag #AskUpgrade on Twitter. Or if you're a RealAFM member in the

01:25:48   RealAFM members Discord, just use the command question mark Ask Upgrade. And you can have them

01:25:53   ask there. The great thing about that is they can be longer than a tweet if you want to. So

01:25:58   we thank everyone who is a RealAFM member, who is part of the RealAFM members Discord as well.

01:26:02   That's great. We're doing everything we can to make that even more and more exciting as time

01:26:06   goes on. We have some stuff coming up real soon on that one. So next week's episode is going to be

01:26:12   the draft episode, which we're so excited about. We're going to be working diligently on getting

01:26:19   that one prepared for you. If you want to find us online, there's a few places to do that. On

01:26:24   Twitter, Jason is @JasonL, J-S-N-E-L-L. I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E. You can find Jason's work

01:26:30   over at sixcolors.com, the incomparable.com. And Jason is the host of many shows here at RealAFM,

01:26:36   as am I as well. Thanks so much to Pingdom, Bombas and Ooni for their support of this show and also

01:26:43   to our RealAFM members as well, who also helped make this show happen. And to you, our listeners,

01:26:48   for tuning in every week. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:26:54   Goodbye Myke Curley.