300: It's So Hard to Predict the Future


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 300. Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace,

00:00:16   DoorDash, and Carlton Bureau. My name is Myke Hurley. I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Mr.

00:00:22   Jason Snell, hello. Myke, how have the podcast authorities not shut us down? 300 episodes,

00:00:27   amazing. Imagine such a thing. I have a hashtag SnellTalk question for you, Jason. Okay. How's

00:00:32   the weather today? You know, it was foggy this morning, but it's cleared up and there's

00:00:38   blue sky out my window now. That was not the case even half an hour ago. So I think it's

00:00:42   going to be a nice day, not too hot, but not too cold. The reason I asked that question,

00:00:48   because we are, we're in a very celebratory mood today. It's going to be a lot of talking

00:00:52   about ourselves. The SnellTalk idea, in case you're newer around here, the idea that we

00:00:59   start the show with a question that typically comes from our audience. Today's question

00:01:04   came from me. It was because we would always start the show, like talking about things

00:01:10   like that. Like I'd say, how's you doing, Jason? Tell me what the weather's like, you

00:01:13   know, little things like that. Small talk. Yeah, small talk. It was small talk. Then

00:01:17   a friend of mine, Matt, mutual friend of ours, said, why don't you ask different questions

00:01:21   every time instead of the small talk? And then we ended up coming up with SnellTalk.

00:01:26   And that's one of my favorite podcast chapter artworks is this one. Which, which Matt was

00:01:31   this? Matt Scharf. Oh, Matt Scharf. All right. Paper Matt. And so if you have never seen it

00:01:38   before, maybe you don't look at the chapter artwork for the show. If you use a podcast

00:01:43   app, which does observe chapter artwork, apps like Castro, Pocket Casts, Overcast, the Apple

00:01:49   podcast app, apps like that, you will see beautiful artwork as if the show is like a

00:01:54   late night talk show, which is so great. And it has the little relay NBC logo, the iMac

00:01:59   NBC logo at the bottom. It's a really very good one by the wonderful Simon who does all

00:02:05   of our artwork, Forgotten Tale on social network. So yeah. Yeah. So yes, we are, we're celebrating

00:02:13   today. We're celebrating episode 300, Celebrate Upgrade. We've got some fun stuff to talk

00:02:17   about. Before we get into the show today, I want to just address something real quick.

00:02:24   The past week has only added more anguish and upset to the lives of people in and outside

00:02:31   of America, people who are already going through so much. You know, everybody is there's so

00:02:36   much happening in the world right now. And we don't want more on top of it. But it's

00:02:42   needed. And we just want to state that we support you. We hope and you know, everyone,

00:02:48   we support you. And we hope that we're all going to get through this safely together.

00:02:52   It should go without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway, that of course, that we

00:02:57   believe racism and police brutality should never be tolerated. Yep. And we want to make

00:03:01   this abundantly clear on this show right now, in the hope that adding more voices like ours

00:03:07   will help to show that there is a majority in this world who believe in what is right.

00:03:12   We're going to put a link in the show notes to some resources for how you can help with

00:03:17   Black Lives Matter causes and others. We want to have fun here today. And we hope that we

00:03:22   can continue to provide you with the escapism that you want. Right. But I feel like we had

00:03:30   to say something because we're aware of this as much as everybody else.

00:03:36   Yep, absolutely. Let's do some upstream news. Upstream is where we talk about what's going

00:03:41   on in streaming media. We spoke about this last week. We touched on it last week a little

00:03:46   bit and Apple has indeed bought some back catalog content, but you never would have

00:03:51   guessed what their first purchase would be. It's the back catalog of Fraggle Rock. One

00:03:58   episode, 100 episodes and now on Apple TV Plus, they were previously on HBO.

00:04:03   Yeah. Back in like the 80s, I want to say. Yeah. Fraggle Rock was on HBO, but it was

00:04:08   a Henson production, I think, and that's why they have the rights to sell to Apple. And

00:04:15   this is interesting because they are doing, I mean, they've got little shorts now. They

00:04:17   are doing full length episodes that they've ordered. This is something, you know, I feel

00:04:23   like we almost got this last time when we talked about this because it's the idea that

00:04:28   if Apple's buying a catalog of old content, maybe it's related to their new content.

00:04:33   You said that, like you 100% were talking about that.

00:04:36   And I suggested something like, well, Battlestar Galactica because Ron Moore does For All Mankind

00:04:40   or something, but it's even more specific than that. It's if we're going to do something

00:04:45   that is a reference or a follow on or a reboot or something to a previous show, we could

00:04:51   buy those episodes. So if Apple TV brought back a show that got canceled, presumably

00:04:59   they would bring back the archive. Here with Fraggle Rock, it's a revival. They're going

00:05:02   to get the Fraggle Rock archive. And there's another one that it sounds like is going to

00:05:08   happen, which is a British show, Myke. So why don't you tell me about that one?

00:05:13   Yeah. This is a quote from Vulture. Variety earlier this month reported that Apple landed

00:05:18   a deal to stream new episodes of Long Way Up, which is a follow up to the Ewan McGregor

00:05:23   led British travel series Long Way Round and Long Way Down. This is where Ewan McGregor

00:05:27   just rides around on a bicycle, a motorbike, not a bicycle, maybe bicycles in places.

00:05:32   Long Way Up, presumably he'll be on like a hang glider.

00:05:35   I guess so. I actually think it's like traveling. I don't know. Just traveling around the UK.

00:05:42   But this is the perfect example of it's a follow on to this other stuff. Why would you

00:05:46   not buy the rights to the previous episodes? Because that gives you like, did you like

00:05:50   our original? We'll dive into the back catalog now. And that is actually it. So it's a change

00:05:56   in Apple strategy, but not really. Right. This is really saying it's all about our originals

00:06:01   and we will make strategic purchases to bolster our originals. And, and so we got all worked

00:06:08   up about like, well, what could this mean and who could they buy? But like, this is

00:06:11   not a sign of that. Maybe they'll do that down the road. Maybe not. But this doesn't

00:06:15   feel to me like a sign of it. This is all about just using the, using the catalog to

00:06:19   bolster the, you know, the new shows. So it's all about like the new shows and then what

00:06:26   trails from them, what's ancillary material for them. So if they do a reboot of something,

00:06:32   like actually the one that comes to mind to me is Amazing Stories, right? They have Amazing

00:06:35   Stories. I would imagine that they've at least inquired about buying the streaming rights

00:06:41   to the whole Amazing Stories catalog because they have Amazing Stories as originals. And

00:06:47   that would be, uh, that's a follow on. They could do that. Yeah. That's to say, if this

00:06:51   is what Apple ends up doing, if this is the extent of it, it's not very exciting. Um,

00:06:55   yeah, I think we kind of was hoping, as you were saying that they were going to do maybe

00:06:59   some bigger stuff than this, as you say, by like adjacent content, um, like all of Battlestar

00:07:03   Galactica, right? It's a great one that you mentioned because there's tie-ins, the showrunners

00:07:07   are there, but like if this is all they do, one, it's not that exciting and two, it's

00:07:10   not that original. I've seen this with like Netflix have done this. Like they pick up

00:07:14   a show that had previously been dropped from a network, they revive it and then get the

00:07:20   back catalog as well. Right. You want that. It's a natural kind of fit. I'm actually wondering

00:07:24   now why Apple didn't get the rights to Amazing Stories. Did NBC Universal just want to hold

00:07:28   onto those? Because it kind of makes too much sense that I feel like that is just a case

00:07:33   of just not doing it right. They didn't do it at launch because it would confuse things.

00:07:37   So, you know, it wouldn't surprise me then if that ends up happening because that would

00:07:41   make sense, right? Like, oh, I enjoy this. Remember the original? Oh, they're all here.

00:07:45   Let's go watch those now. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. And who knows, maybe

00:07:50   Apple will set its sights now more, more on shows they can revive, right? Because then

00:07:55   they can get the back catalog. Like that might be a change in direction for them. But we'll

00:07:59   see. Sure. And this is streaming services are often a place where something beloved

00:08:03   gets canceled somewhere where they ask, well, what could you revive this? Could you bring

00:08:08   it forward? And the timing isn't right for this, but an example is like Counterpart,

00:08:11   the show that I loved, which is now on Amazon Prime in the US. It's in other places around

00:08:17   the world. That show was canceled at Starz after 20 episodes and they shopped it around

00:08:23   and nothing came of it. And the executive producers now, there was a Reddit thread where

00:08:27   he explained where they were going with it. So I think it's never coming back. Right.

00:08:30   But, but that's the kind of scenario where a show like that that's really high quality

00:08:34   hat doesn't have a home there. The people at Apple look at it and go, actually, we really

00:08:38   like that. Can we get the rights to those 20 episodes and we'll buy another 20 and that

00:08:44   they might do something like that. I know that that is sometimes frowned upon as being

00:08:47   like you're taking somebody else's leavings, but sometimes it happens that it just doesn't

00:08:52   fit. Like this is the wrong show for this channel or service and a better fit for us

00:09:00   and so I think this positions Apple in a way to be one of those. They'll start getting

00:09:05   the letter writing campaigns is what I'm saying.

00:09:08   I mean, I expect that will definitely be the case, right? Save our show, Apple. Use your

00:09:14   billions.

00:09:16   I think this is what Scorsese said to them too. Killers of the Flower Moon, the upcoming

00:09:21   movie starring Leonardo DiCaprio and who else is in it? Robert De Niro, of course, is coming

00:09:27   to Apple TV Plus now reported by many outlets including Deadline. It's expected to cost

00:09:33   between $180 and $200 million. I believe this is including the rights from Paramount and

00:09:38   to finish the movie. The movie will still be distributed by Paramount in theaters. This

00:09:43   is exactly the same as Netflix and the Irishman. Netflix bought it from Paramount to finish

00:09:52   it because Paramount didn't want to spend all the money that Scorsese wanted to spend,

00:09:56   but then they still got to put it in theaters, which is also important because then it puts

00:09:59   it up for award season. So, you know, Apple would want to do that anyway with this movie,

00:10:05   so this is kind of like a win-win.

00:10:06   Yeah, it is. And, you know, Oscar. Oscar.

00:10:10   Yeah, it's big.

00:10:11   It's all about Oscars.

00:10:12   Yeah, it's big. They want Oscars.

00:10:13   I mean, this is a chance.

00:10:14   And Martin Scorsese movie probably going to get nominated for Oscars and now Apple will

00:10:18   be sharing in that glow because this is an Apple production.

00:10:25   And then we have the Yagadot Setzerstein and a new Apple TV+ series about the film legend

00:10:30   Hedy Lamarr. Quote from Variety, "Hedy Lamarr will follow the true story of the Hollywood

00:10:35   glamour girl spanning 30 years from Lamarr's escape from pre-war Vienna to a meteoric rise

00:10:39   in the golden age of Hollywood to a fall and eventual disgrace at the dawn of the Cold

00:10:43   War. The show will also go into Lamarr's life as an inventor, including one invention that

00:10:48   became the basis for spread spectrum technology that is used today."

00:10:51   So another big star that Apple is going for.

00:10:54   Yeah, Wonder Woman herself.

00:10:55   Mm-hmm. Exactly.

00:10:56   I have some What's On Apple TV+ news for you.

00:11:02   So Central Park, which we've talked about here from the Bob's Burgers people and there

00:11:06   are a bunch of other people involved. Some voices from Hamilton. Josh Gad is involved.

00:11:13   It premiered on Apple with two shows, I want to say two episodes. I watched the pilot and

00:11:19   I thought it was pretty fun. It's like a musical animated comedy thing and I thought it was

00:11:25   pretty good. So if you like musicals and you like Bob's Burgers or other animated stuff

00:11:29   – Bob's Burgers, by the way, great show – you should check out Central Park. I enjoyed

00:11:34   it. And then I also watched the Mythic Quest, Raven's Banquet quarantine episode. And because

00:11:42   everybody was talking about it, it was really well done. I was very impressed. I think it

00:11:48   was – I mean, it was better than the Parks and Recreation one. And I love Parks and Recreation

00:11:53   and so it had a great nostalgia value to see them. But you could see the seams and like

00:11:58   the people not quite acting right and all of that, I would say. Like it was a little

00:12:03   awkward. And then this one felt solid. Like it felt like a real TV episode. It was very

00:12:12   well done. I read an article about how they did it where they apparently, you know, it's

00:12:18   that thing – I think we might have even talked about it – where they're like, "We need

00:12:20   a bunch of iPhones to shoot this. Can we get iPhones?" I think you're an Apple TV Plus.

00:12:24   I think you can. Anyway, it was really good. And I recommend it. And I think it – I've

00:12:29   only seen the first three, four episodes of the season. So I assume it spoils some things

00:12:33   about where some people are later, but not really. And it doesn't matter. And I would

00:12:38   recommend giving it a try. I think it was pretty funny. And I have, as a little sidebar,

00:12:45   a Netflix thing that – a little Netflix story to tell you, which is they released

00:12:49   another interactive on Netflix.

00:12:51   Oh, right. Like the Black Mirror one.

00:12:53   Yeah. So this is Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, which is a show that ran on Netflix for a

00:12:58   long time. And they did a follow-on like episode basically, special. And it's an interactive

00:13:06   special. So it's an interactive sitcom special. And I liked it. It was really funny. But I

00:13:12   tried to watch it on the Apple TV just to see if they've added Apple TV interactive

00:13:16   support because Bandersnatch didn't work on the Apple TV. And when you play – and

00:13:21   it shows up in the interface. So I'm like, "Okay. Well, it's here." And I play it,

00:13:25   and basically a robot appears – I'm not kidding – somebody in a robot costume and

00:13:29   says, "Sorry, you can't watch this on this device. You need to go to a different device

00:13:36   and watch it there." And I thought, "Well, that's interesting and disappointing that

00:13:41   they aren't building this support into Apple TV." And the amazing thing is they sent

00:13:48   me an email. I immediately got an email from Netflix having played that video saying, "Jason,

00:13:58   we see you tried to play the Kimmy Schmidt interactive special, and it's not available

00:14:02   on your device because it is too old. Please consider a more modern device like a smart

00:14:10   TV or a streaming box." I'm like, "Mmm, that was what I was using."

00:14:14   - That email tells me they would love to make it available on Apple TV.

00:14:19   - It also is weird, right? Like, Apple TV – the way they wrote the email, they wrote

00:14:25   it for a bunch of old incompatible systems, but also the Apple TV gets it because they

00:14:30   just haven't gotten to it yet and they didn't really think about the fact that it was also

00:14:34   going to go to Apple TV people. Anyway, it turns out my TV set, which is a TCL, so it's

00:14:41   got Roku OS on it, the TV set has a Netflix app that does support interactive. So we watched

00:14:48   it on our TV set Netflix app because that's apparently more advanced than our Apple TV.

00:14:54   - I imagine there's got to be something about what they're able to do with the remote

00:14:57   that's stopping them from doing this. - I don't think that's it. I think it's

00:15:02   something about the app itself, their Netflix app on TV OS that they don't want to support.

00:15:07   It's on iOS, it works on iOS, and all you're doing, the interactive, is literally there's

00:15:10   just a menu and you go back and forth and then select one. There's no special interaction

00:15:16   at all. But they've decided, I guess, not to do the work to put it in their TV OS app,

00:15:21   even though it's in their iOS app, which is kind of baffling. But anyway, the email

00:15:24   was the part that really made me laugh because it was like, "You seem to be using something

00:15:29   very old that doesn't do cool things. Please upgrade your old Apple TV." It's like, "No,

00:15:36   no, not going to happen." Anyway, that's my story.

00:15:40   - Last thing, Zane Lowe's Apple Music interview series is now a podcast. So this is the interview

00:15:45   series that he does on Apple Music Beats One. Wait, is it called Beats One? Beats One, right?

00:15:54   Yeah, Beats One worldwide, 24/7. This is an interview series that Zane has done since

00:15:59   the beginning of Beats One, talking to music artists. And this follows on from what he

00:16:05   did on the radio before this. The Zane Lowe interview was an important part of a new artist's

00:16:12   release. They would come on talk to Zane Lowe, talk about the album. This is now available

00:16:17   on Apple podcasts and everywhere. They've released it just as a podcast. It's not locked

00:16:22   into anything. It is an open podcast. You can just go and get it.

00:16:26   - It's an Apple original podcast. - Yep.

00:16:30   - Interesting. I wonder if it's on Spotify. - I wondered that. I didn't check because

00:16:36   I figured it was kind of pointless because I bet you it's not. So, all right, I would

00:16:42   do a quick search while we're sitting here, but I can't imagine that it is. I guess this

00:16:46   is a foray. This is doing something smart. They can't really do this with a lot of the

00:16:53   Beats One content because it contains music. So they wouldn't be able to do this. It's

00:16:58   not on Spotify. It's worth checking. Definitely isn't there. But they can do it with the interview

00:17:04   stuff. So they're doing this. And I think this is a good one because I think we said

00:17:08   this a long time ago. We said this when Beats One launched. This is great content that is

00:17:13   kind of being hidden in a place that people aren't expecting to find it. And so putting

00:17:17   it out there as a podcast is a good move. And I wonder what we're going to see. This

00:17:22   is a clear change. This is clearly something new. This is Apple taking content that they

00:17:28   create and putting it out there. The creator is Apple Music. That's kind of what it is

00:17:35   locked as right now. It's like, "Who made this podcast?" kind of thing. We are real

00:17:39   AFM in the podcast directory. So there you go. I want to do one little piece of follow

00:17:45   up before we go to our first break. People should go subscribe to Liftoff, the relay

00:17:49   AFM show hosted by Jason Snell and Steven Hackett if they want to know more space stuff

00:17:54   because people are excited about space right now.

00:17:56   That's right. We did a little live stream during the space launch over the weekend too,

00:18:01   which was kind of fun. Learning new app we use for that. We use Live from Ecamm, which

00:18:07   had some weird audio issues because it's trying to be... It's one of those things where...

00:18:12   We see this a lot with the stuff that we do where we want complete control over everything.

00:18:16   And some apps try to be helpful and just do the right thing, but it gives you no control

00:18:22   over it. And so then you try to take it over, take control, and then that doesn't work.

00:18:27   So we fixed it all. There were some very weird audio switching issues that it had, but we

00:18:32   got there in the end. I learned a lot about it. There's things I would change, and there's

00:18:37   features that that app I wish would add. It's a very... Unlike every other live streaming

00:18:43   app I've used, it's really nice as a Mac app. It's a good app, but it's super limited in

00:18:49   what it can do right now. And so that's disappointing. Ecamm makes Call Recorder, which we use for

00:18:56   all our podcasts too. And Live as a live streamer, it's got a great interface for connecting

00:19:02   to the streaming service and giving you complete control over what you see. And I'm very impressed

00:19:07   by all of that. And then I tried to make a screen where Steven and I were on filling

00:19:14   the screen, and then there was a little picture in picture of our video capture of the Space

00:19:19   Launch. And it just... It can't do that. You can do the reverse, but you can't. You just

00:19:24   can't put video in a picture in picture box. And I emailed them and I said, "Am I wrong?"

00:19:29   And they're like, "No, you can't do that." Okay. So very limited, but really nice for

00:19:34   what it is capable of.

00:19:35   It is a decent Mac streaming solution, of which there are not many.

00:19:40   Yeah, well, I was using Streamlabs OBS over the weekend, which is an alpha basically.

00:19:46   And it is great and free and totally locked up my Mac and has crashed it on multiple occasions.

00:19:53   I think there's some sort of a memory leak that it is doing. And it's like... And I've

00:19:58   used Wirecast, which is very expensive and it's also not very good, although it's more

00:20:03   reliable than Streamlabs OBS, but it's not very good. And then I use Live and I think,

00:20:09   "Oh my God, this would be so great." But I need them to add like 10 features. And maybe

00:20:15   they will over time. I mean, EKM is like two guys, maybe a handful more. It's a very small

00:20:20   company, but it's a great app for what it does. It just doesn't do very much right now.

00:20:26   All right. This episode is brought to you in part by our very good friends over at Cotton

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00:22:58   And all the great merch.

00:23:00   We don't have much available right now, maybe later.

00:23:04   Some are fun. We're going to work on it. We got kind of derailed as everybody did by what

00:23:08   was going on in the world, but we're talking about doing something. Also, we didn't feel

00:23:13   the need for people to get merch to wear at WWDC.

00:23:15   That's usually why we do it now.

00:23:19   But I think we'll try to do a summer release of some stuff. So we'll get there.

00:23:23   The summer of fun merchandise usually just comes to us in Fever Dreams and we just haven't

00:23:27   had one of those yet.

00:23:29   It's true. More on that later.

00:23:32   We're going to do a draft. Of course we are.

00:23:34   A draft! Surprise draft! Surprise draft!

00:23:36   So this is episode 300. We're going to do a draft of predictions that we think Apple

00:23:43   will have done by episode 400.

00:23:46   Yeah, it's the episode 400 draft in episode 300. That's right.

00:23:51   So we're looking at spring sometime in 2022 is when we're picking.

00:23:57   Perhaps it will be a specific day in May 2022, but as you and I said before we started the

00:24:01   show, although we tend to do an episode every single week for 52 weeks, it's possible we

00:24:08   could skip a week. It's never happened yet. Or that we would do an episode like a bonus

00:24:13   episode because of something like a secret Apple thing or something like that. You never

00:24:16   know. So we don't know exactly when, but probably May 2022. We don't know for sure.

00:24:23   So this is also prep, I guess, because we're going to be in big draft season in two weeks'

00:24:28   time.

00:24:29   Yeah, the WWDC draft. Can't wait for that. It's coming on June 15th will be the WWDC

00:24:33   draft.

00:24:34   Yeah, it was a 302.

00:24:35   Which is going to be an interesting one. I think there's going to be some weird picks

00:24:40   in that one.

00:24:41   So there's a message in a bottle. We're throwing it in the, I don't know, Apple Ocean Plus,

00:24:47   and we'll fish it out for episode 400.

00:24:50   I think a time capsule would be a better metaphor for that.

00:24:55   Okay, we'll take a time capsule and we'll throw it in the ocean.

00:24:58   No, why does everything have to go in the ocean?

00:25:02   I don't know.

00:25:03   Bury it. You bury a time capsule.

00:25:05   Oh, okay. All right, fine. We'll bury this episode then.

00:25:08   Okay. Do you want to go first? We're going to pick five things each that we expect Apple

00:25:14   will have done within the next two years.

00:25:18   All right. Do I, I want this to be fun and I also want to win. I want to do a victory

00:25:25   lap in spring 2022. Is this going to count toward our overall draft victories in 2022?

00:25:29   Or is this just an exhibition?

00:25:31   I don't know. Let's say it's an exhibition.

00:25:33   Okay.

00:25:34   Unless I win it and then we change the rules.

00:25:37   All right, good. That's perfectly fair. I, with my first pick in the episode 400 draft,

00:25:44   I'm going to say between now and episode 400, Apple will have received an Oscar nomination.

00:25:51   Ooh, that's good. That's real good. I think that's going to happen.

00:25:54   Could be Martin Scorsese's movie. Could be. I just feel like they're buying movies and

00:26:00   The Tom Hanks movie could do it.

00:26:02   It could be. Well, this year's Oscars, or I guess next year's Oscars are a real question,

00:26:06   right? Because a lot of the eligibility is going to be for things that were going to

00:26:09   be released and then ended up on streaming, but that plays into Apple's hand. And then

00:26:13   with the Scorsese movie, they're happy to give it a release in theaters and then it

00:26:16   will roll into Apple TV Plus, but they're on the, you know, they're a producer of it.

00:26:21   So they get the credit just like Netflix screening a movie and then pulling it off and putting

00:26:26   it on Netflix. So I'm just going to throw it out there. I thought about other entertainment

00:26:30   awards. I think it's almost as likely that Apple will win an Emmy as getting an Oscar

00:26:34   nomination, but I want to go for the nomination because I think that's an interesting idea

00:26:41   and I definitely think they want one.

00:26:43   Yeah, I like that you've hedged it a little bit with nomination and not win an Oscar.

00:26:48   Yeah, well, yeah, that's if I had to pick a win, I would pick an Emmy because I think

00:26:53   it's more likely to win an Emmy than win an Oscar. But I'm going to go with Oscar nomination.

00:26:58   It's an honor just to be nominated, Myke.

00:27:00   It sure is. Similar-ish, I'm going to predict that by 2022, Apple will have launched a services

00:27:09   bundle for their selection of services. I've never given up on the services bundle.

00:27:14   No, this is one of your long-term connected things too, isn't it?

00:27:18   Yeah, I mean, I've had it in every pick of anything imaginable.

00:27:22   Once you're used to picking it, just keep picking it and eventually it might happen.

00:27:26   Yeah, the services bundle for me is basically I'm Gene Munster in the television. You know,

00:27:32   like Gene would never let the Apple television go and I'm never going to let the services

00:27:36   bundle go because I just think at a certain point they'll have enough stuff. It'll be

00:27:40   easier for everyone. They'll make more money that way because people will, you know, where

00:27:45   they may have just had one, they'll be like, "All right, I'll pay an extra dollar a month

00:27:47   and get everything." A services bundle makes sense at a certain point that they would do

00:27:52   it. I just think that all of the stars have yet to align, you know, because they don't

00:27:58   charge any money for Apple TV+, right? And Apple News+ or News whatever it's called has

00:28:05   not really gone very well so far. I think that the launches have been scattered over

00:28:10   the last year and at a certain point I think they're going to want to bring them together

00:28:14   and offer one singular package.

00:28:17   I think that's a good choice. I mean, bundles work. That's why bundles exist. So if they

00:28:24   want to continue to drive services, bundling is one way to do it. Oh boy, it's so hard

00:28:31   to predict the future, Myke. You know, it's hard. I am going to predict that in spring

00:28:39   of 2022 in episode 400, at that point, the MacBook Air name still exists on a product.

00:28:47   Wow, that's an interesting one.

00:28:50   Because I want to say, and I've advocated that Apple should simplify its names when

00:28:56   it moves to ARM, and I think by spring 2022 most or all of Apple's laptops, this could

00:29:00   be a future pick, exactly what is going on with the ARM transition, but I feel like Apple

00:29:06   has just, they can't get rid of it. Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb. So I think

00:29:12   the MacBook Air just, they can't kill it. They will still be selling a product called

00:29:17   MacBook Air in spring 2022.

00:29:20   All right, I was going to go with a kind of like serious big product one, but now I'm

00:29:25   going to pick one of my stranger ones because that is a strange little pick. By 2022, they

00:29:32   have launched some kind of Jonny Ive collaboration.

00:29:36   Ooh, what form will it take?

00:29:39   I would expect it will be some kind of watch band line or case line, something like that

00:29:47   from Jonny's Love From company. I think it will probably be a one and done. They will

00:29:53   do it one time, right?

00:29:55   Like an Apple Watch edition sort of thing?

00:29:57   Yeah, but I think they will do something. Like that whole idea of we're going to continue

00:30:01   collaborating closely, I do not believe that that was true, but I think they're going to

00:30:04   want to do it at least once.

00:30:07   Wow, you're right, that is a wacky pick.

00:30:09   And if they do go into AR, I could imagine some kind of like, maybe they want to get

00:30:15   a little bit fancy with some kind of glasses product, and maybe Jonny is there for something

00:30:20   like that, and they maybe try and be quite stylish there. I think that there is a possibility

00:30:26   to do it, to put his name on it, and make it seem like it is a more important thing

00:30:31   than it is, as if it was a fashion designer.

00:30:35   I like how they have the Hermes Apple Watches, right? Which is like really, it's just a different

00:30:39   band and a different watch face, so like the Nike ones. They don't change the product in

00:30:44   any way, but I could imagine an Apple Watch Jonny Ive edition. I just think it could have

00:30:49   a clout around it, but I don't expect it to be a long-time thing, but I think they are

00:30:54   going to do it at some point.

00:30:57   Alright, we'll put it in a bottle and throw it in the sea. Or whatever, bury it, bury

00:31:01   the bottle.

00:31:02   Bury the bottle in the ocean.

00:31:03   I'm going to say that you'll be able to develop iOS apps on the iPad by episode 400. That

00:31:08   only gives us two WWDCs, Myke, the one that's this month and the one next year, right? Because

00:31:13   there's another WWDC, presumably, in the summer of 2022, but we're not going to be there yet.

00:31:18   But I'm going to throw it out there. I think at some point they have to say, yes, you can

00:31:23   build apps on the iPad. So here it is.

00:31:26   What you just said about there only being two WWDCs, that really made me, when I was

00:31:30   writing out my picks, I scaled it back significantly.

00:31:33   If only this was the episode 410 draft, we would have been fine.

00:31:37   Oh yeah, yeah, get one more in there. No, but like episode 400 feels like a long way

00:31:42   away, but then when you're just like, oh, it's 2022, that's not so far away. That's

00:31:46   two iPhones.

00:31:47   It's two years.

00:31:48   And two WWDCs. It's all we have, right?

00:31:50   Exactly.

00:31:51   And it's actually not, you can't get too like pie in the sky with these things.

00:31:55   I kind of tipped my hand a little bit. I believe that by spring 2022, Apple will have launched

00:32:02   some kind of hardware product focused on AR, maybe glasses, maybe it's a mixed reality

00:32:09   visor for home, you know, like, and they really just, again, like it's a prosumer product

00:32:15   in some way, right? Like anyone can buy it, but they really want developers to have it

00:32:19   to continue pushing the AR story.

00:32:21   I do not believe that we are very close to a Google Glass like product.

00:32:27   I think Apple really want to be careful about the way they introduce that.

00:32:31   And I think having some kind of at home mixed reality visor is like another step, right?

00:32:38   Without going too far. Like let's get more people used to this.

00:32:41   Let's get more use cases for it.

00:32:43   So when they eventually hit with Apple Glasses, it will be a success in the way that the Apple

00:32:50   watch took a little while to get off the ground.

00:32:54   Yeah. I had this on my list and was thinking of picking it because at some point they've

00:32:58   got to introduce a product, right? They really do.

00:33:02   Whether it's by spring 2022 or maybe it's summer 2022, you know, I would, I think this

00:33:07   is a good pick. I think that this is going to have to happen sooner rather than later.

00:33:11   So in the next two years, sure. Let's say so.

00:33:14   I'm going to say that in the next two years, Apple will be specifically targeted by a major

00:33:23   piece of encryption legislation in the US. I'm not saying it will be actually passed

00:33:30   into law, but that there will be a big hubbub where somebody somewhere, maybe the Senate,

00:33:37   who knows, somebody somewhere is going to make a big rumble and there's going to be

00:33:42   a big debate about whether they're going to pass a law that makes some of Apple's end-to-end

00:33:47   encryption and others, but Apple will be in the spotlight because of all the law enforcement

00:33:52   complaints about them. And there will be another big hubbub that will involve proposed legislation

00:33:57   because I feel like this is inevitable now that there's going to be a, and unlike so

00:34:04   much that's across party lines, I feel like there are definitely politicians on in both

00:34:10   parties in the US who want to look tough on terrorism and crime and think that a big tech

00:34:19   company is an easy target.

00:34:22   Also tough on big tech in general, right? Like a lot of people want to be seen as, as

00:34:29   like, Oh, we're going to keep these going to keep these guys in line, you know? Yeah,

00:34:33   exactly.

00:34:34   And I think if I'm following what you're saying, it's, it's an escalation of the stuff we've

00:34:37   seen in the past where, you know, there's been a lot of like a hand wringing about Apple

00:34:42   and a lot of name calling, but there hasn't been legislation attempted.

00:34:46   Right. Yeah. Right. Right. So what if there's a big debate about whether they're going to

00:34:50   pass a new piece of legislation and one of the debates is over this? I'm not saying that

00:34:54   they'll pass the legislation, but I think that it will be a big debate at some point

00:34:58   that they will threaten at least to make some aspect of what Apple is doing with encryption

00:35:05   and other companies illegal, even though, as we know, you're basically breaking encryption

00:35:10   if that happens, it doesn't actually make sense. But I think they're going to try.

00:35:15   Maybe, you know, we see Tim at Congress, Myke, we've seen Zuckerberg at Congress.

00:35:20   Oh yeah.

00:35:21   I am going to go with Apple by the spring of 2022 will have transitioned the consumer

00:35:29   Mac line to ARM.

00:35:31   I was figuring, trying to figure out how to slice the ARM transition. And that was one

00:35:36   of the ones I was thinking of is consumer Macs. So there may be still some pro Macs,

00:35:41   the Mac Pro. One of my things on my list was only the Mac Pro will remain on Intel, but

00:35:46   it could be broader than that. So yeah, the consumer Macs to ARM by 2022 spring. So iMac

00:35:54   and the consumer laptops.

00:35:56   Anything that has Pro in the name that runs Mac OS will probably remain on Intel or some

00:36:04   x86 architecture.

00:36:05   You're not predicting like all the Pro will be on Intel, right? You're leaving that out.

00:36:10   You're just saying any Mac that doesn't have Pro in the title will be ARM.

00:36:15   Yeah. Because I actually, I mean, I don't know if you were going to pick this, but I

00:36:18   actually don't if they move to Intel, I don't think they'll stick. If they move to ARM,

00:36:22   I don't think they'll stick completely with Intel anyway. I think it's all up in the air

00:36:27   for the pro lines as well.

00:36:29   Is the Mac mini a pro Mac or a consumer Mac?

00:36:32   It's a consumer Mac.

00:36:34   Okay. So you're, you're, this is, I think this is the boldest prediction of all. You're

00:36:38   predicting the Mac mini will be updated in the next two years. And I say that because

00:36:43   I was about to pick the Mac mini will not be updated.

00:36:46   Here's the thing, Jason, here's the thing. We have all thought, Oh, maybe that a transition

00:36:52   machine would be the Mac book or a Mac book air. What if it's the Mac mini?

00:36:57   Sure.

00:36:58   What if Mac mini is first?

00:37:00   I don't think it will be.

00:37:01   It could be though, right?

00:37:03   Yeah.

00:37:04   Cause it's a small box. It's, I would probably expect cheaper to make than the laptops. And

00:37:11   if they want to have some kind of like transition hardware that isn't a conspiracy theory of

00:37:16   the iPad 2020 could be a Mac mini.

00:37:19   Okay.

00:37:20   I don't think this is going to happen, but no, you got to throw out your wild conspiracy

00:37:24   theories.

00:37:25   When did it pop into your brain?

00:37:26   I love it. Absolutely. You know, I do that. I do that right on this show. Um, okay. For

00:37:30   my next pick, my last pick, I'm going to pick that Apple will be selling four different

00:37:36   products with the name AirPods full. All right. So AirPods, AirPods pro, the rumored AirPods

00:37:45   studio over ear headphones, and some other product that continues to extend the brand

00:37:53   of AirPods. And I don't know what it is. I'm not saying what it is. It could be anything,

00:37:59   but I feel like I want to have some fun here, but I also want to say the brand expansion

00:38:04   AirPods will proceed apace.

00:38:07   So I guess if we're talking here that there will be four products for sale that have AirPods

00:38:13   and then something, right? Yes. Interesting. I, you know, I could imagine there's been a

00:38:17   lot of rumor of like AirPods light. Um, that could be a thing, right? Sure. I don't know.

00:38:23   I don't really know what that would be, but you know, this one makes sense to me. They

00:38:29   have, they have a hit a hot brand, right? That's what I keep saying is that if you're

00:38:32   in charge of AirPods, I'm sure that Tim Cook has basically said, do as much with it as

00:38:37   you possibly can because it's a huge hit. So over your headphones, yes. Some other kind

00:38:42   of, you know, some other over ear behind ear open, whatever, like keep making them, keep

00:38:49   making them make a little wireless charging pad for AirPods. Fine. Do it. Whatever. Anything.

00:38:56   All right. My last pick. I have a couple that I want to share with you after, you know,

00:39:02   like in, you know, in our extras, but I will say that by 2022 Apple will have staggered

00:39:08   their iPhone release schedule and will be releasing multiple phones a year that are new.

00:39:14   All right. Um, so that means not just by staggered, you don't mean just like October and November

00:39:19   after one announcement. No, I think they will do a spring and a fall iPhone event. That's

00:39:26   what I think that they'll end up doing. I think it's going to all start this year and

00:39:30   I think that they will then start spreading it out. You know, cause like the rumors say,

00:39:33   we're going to get four new iPhones in September. I don't think that that will keep happening.

00:39:39   I think they will want to start spreading that out a little bit over time so they can

00:39:43   hit twice. Um, and I don't mean like the SE here, right? Like this isn't what I'm talking

00:39:49   about. Um, but, but I believe by 2022 there will be new iPhones twice a year. Okay. That's

00:39:59   a bold pick. That's almost as ridiculous as for products named AirPods. So great. So I

00:40:05   will say for that one, if you want to get an idea of what I'm talking about, look at

00:40:09   Samsung. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I think we've had this conversation about pot, the possibility

00:40:14   of Apple doing it, whether they will do it as a mystery, but you're right. If they're

00:40:17   releasing four phones a year or five phones a year or whatever it is, would it not be

00:40:22   nice to have that be spread out a little bit? I just, I keep wondering what happens in the

00:40:27   fall event. Do you release the iPhone 13 pro and not the iPhone 13? Do you have to uncouple

00:40:34   the names because the implications there, do you wait on the pro model and release the

00:40:37   regular model? Maybe, maybe if the regular model gets some things that are just pro,

00:40:42   but it's not better than the existing pros that gives you six months to release the new

00:40:46   pros. I don't know. Yeah. I don't really know how it will look, but I it's, it's, this is

00:40:51   purely based on the fact that I can't imagine them releasing four phones every September

00:40:55   forever. It seems like too much. I hear you. So we'll see. All right. So what, give me

00:41:01   some of your, uh, some of your additional ones, the ones you didn't pick. The rest of

00:41:04   my list that I was thinking of and picking from was the no Intel max left only these

00:41:11   Intel max left no Mac mini update. AirTags will ship. Apple will ship a wireless charging

00:41:19   accessory. Hmm. Back to the dog that bit them. Um, the easy they're going to release the

00:41:27   AirPods studio over your headphones. I decided that was too easy. They begun assembling iPhones

00:41:31   in a country that isn't China, an additional country that isn't China. They've announced

00:41:35   their intention to produce chips for their products in the United States, won an Emmy

00:41:40   and bought a movie or TV studio. Wow. You had a lot more than me. Um, I only had two

00:41:46   others, uh, which is to release a unified development platform and to have a new chief

00:41:53   design officer. Oh, I like those. The chief design officer one, I think would be important

00:41:59   because it could allow them to add some diversity to their executive page. And they think that

00:42:05   they should do that at some point, you know, they can look for somebody who doesn't look

00:42:09   like the rest of the executives then in there. Right. Um, and maybe they are doing that.

00:42:13   I don't know. Or, you know, just to kind of refresh that lineup a little bit more than

00:42:17   it has been over the last many, many years. But so we'll see. But yeah, there was a couple

00:42:21   in there that I thought were interesting. I think make a lot of sense, which is especially

00:42:25   like the, I think it's already happening. There's already lots of headlines happening

00:42:30   about spreading out the, uh, creation of their products and manufacture their products to

00:42:34   other countries. Right. Like I think, uh, the, I saw a report somewhere saying that

00:42:39   the airport studio will be made in Taiwan, right. Um, that they're kind of trying to

00:42:45   spread things out a little bit, especially with the newer products. Yeah. And there've

00:42:49   been rumors about Vietnam potentially being an assembly point. Um, yeah, I think there,

00:42:56   I think that they're definitely attached to China, but they don't want to be completely

00:43:00   stuck where China holds the key to all their products. Oh, you know what you just said,

00:43:07   I got it wrong. It's, uh, the report says that they were looking to make the airport

00:43:10   studio in Vietnam, not Taiwan. Oh, okay. So I got that one mixed up. So thank you for

00:43:15   that. There's Taiwan semiconductor, which is where their chips are made, but they may

00:43:18   be made in the U S in the future because they're opening a factory and it's all connected.

00:43:23   But yeah, it was Vietnam. It's all connected. We are going to do a massive ask upgrade.

00:43:28   We got so many wonderful questions from the upgrade Ian's about a lot of meta stuff about

00:43:32   the show. Um, and that's what we're going to do for the rest of the episode. I couldn't

00:43:36   even include all of the wonderful questions that we got. But before we do, uh, I guess

00:43:40   just to say about the draft, we'll come back to it, right? Like I, I will put a note in

00:43:45   my to do app. Like we will score this draft by episode 400. Like it's, it's going to happen.

00:43:50   So that, that will be a lot of fun. Uh, this episode is brought to you by Doordash. You've

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00:44:33   and as Jason said many times, like you can also not, it's not just about ordering what

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00:44:48   also get some great different food at home, right? Especially if you're doing a lot of

00:44:52   home cooking, maybe you're getting in a rut. Absolutely. We just did this on Friday with

00:44:55   a Chinese. We're like, we don't want to cook. And uh, I hadn't had Chinese food in like

00:44:59   a year. So we did it. It was great. Comes, you know, and contactless, just dropping it

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00:45:31   Our thanks to DoorDash for their continued support of this show and Relay FM. So it's

00:45:36   big ask upgrade time. Oh, that was a nice one. That felt like very appropriate, you

00:45:43   know? Oh yeah. So we'll celebrate by turning over to the upgrade against now. Yeah. Questions

00:45:49   someone I know what they want to hear. Joe asked, are you glad you chose upgrade for

00:45:53   the show name? Do you remember any of the other contenders? This has been so much work

00:45:59   for me and Jason today to try to find other show names and we hit a sticking point. So

00:46:06   basically this show began in September 2014, right? That's when the first episode was.

00:46:14   And both me and Jason remember having conversations over iMessage about this show, but both of

00:46:21   our messages in the cloud backups or whatever only they cut off in September of 2014. So

00:46:30   maybe this is something to do with iOS or the iPhone that year, right? Because it's

00:46:34   around that time. There's something about that time where neither of us have our backups

00:46:38   before then of our messages. So all of those conversations would have been happening probably

00:46:44   in like August of 2014. Right. Or like, or very early September. So we don't, we don't

00:46:50   have them, but we did both find some emails to each other and including Steven as well

00:46:55   when we were starting out and we had one other name suggestion that came from a long list

00:47:02   that we've been working on, which was iconic was the other name that we'd come to. But

00:47:09   I think for me, upgrade was definitely the winner of those. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I'm pleased

00:47:14   that we went, we went with that one. Yeah. And it's funny looking back on that email

00:47:19   because the point of the name and, and this is something that I think has come up a few

00:47:24   times where people are sort of like asking about the name. It was very clear from the

00:47:29   start. In fact, in your email to me, when we sort of were boiling it down and we had

00:47:32   come up with a long list and brainstorming and text and then you and Steven had talked

00:47:36   and then you had set back to upgrade and iconic as the ones you liked the best, which I knew

00:47:40   what the others were. What you, what you wrote to me was, I think we're leaning toward upgrade,

00:47:47   but it gives the impression of showing that it's better than what you're currently doing

00:47:50   on this topic. Are you happy with that? Maybe it was the intention because personally I

00:47:55   like it because of that as it sends a strong message, but just wanted to make sure you'd

00:47:58   considered it. And the answer is it was absolutely my intention as just a little portion of an

00:48:07   elbow to my former employers to have my podcast that I went out and did on my own be an upgrade

00:48:14   over my previous job. And I will, if I haven't said that before publicly, I will say it now.

00:48:19   Is that a dig at IDG? You're damn right it is. Yeah. And you know what? Just a little

00:48:25   bit of spite, just a tiny nugget of spite. Just a little bit. Not that every project,

00:48:30   not that it's better than every project you were doing. Of course the wonderful Clockwise,

00:48:33   which came over at the same time. Yes. We found like nine different versions of the

00:48:37   Clockwise art in that email thread as we were trying to work on a new version of Clockwise.

00:48:42   It was still on the network too, which is great. But yeah, that was like, I found it

00:48:47   funny that you're like, are you sure you want to, this leaves an implication. I'm like,

00:48:50   yes it does. All right. Yeah. So it's a great name. It's a great name because it's a thing.

00:48:56   It's a tech word. It means something in terms of always kind of moving forward and there's

00:49:01   always another upgrade and all of that. Like it fits so well with while being a single

00:49:08   word, which is very hard, right? To find that word that somehow kind of ties in. And so

00:49:13   it's a good one. Sometimes it's hard to find when you search because it's just a word.

00:49:18   Sometimes it's hard to do little promo codes for sponsors because they have an upgrade

00:49:21   promo already, but we make it work. I mean, I just did a Google search and I'm

00:49:26   clicking into a window for upgrade podcast and we're first beating out those punks over

00:49:30   at life hacker. Yeah. What are they thinking? Uh, um, Zach and the discord, the relay FM

00:49:40   members discord, by the way, which you should become a relay FM member support this show.

00:49:45   And there's a link in the top of your show notes. You can support upgrade directly. If

00:49:48   you would like, you'll get access to loads of wonderful benefits, including access to

00:49:52   the relay FM members discord, which is a wonderful live chat as well while we stream the show

00:49:56   live. But you can also ask your ask upgrade questions right in the discord and they get

00:50:01   put into the same sheet as the tweets. The benefit there is they can be longer if you

00:50:04   want because there isn't the tweet limit and you don't have to be on Twitter. You have

00:50:08   to be on Twitter. So Zach asked, uh, why is there a 128 K max start up beep at the beginning

00:50:14   of in a brackets nearly every show. So first off, it's not just the one 28 K, although

00:50:20   it is the original Mac startup chime. Um, my first Mac was a Mac SE and it had the same

00:50:24   chart up startup beep. And so I am nostalgic for that sound. I felt the podcast needed

00:50:31   a startup sound when we got the theme music. Um, I felt like the theme music was, I like

00:50:38   the theme music a lot. Um, we did make one change. I had it be more guitar and less synthesizer.

00:50:43   And sometimes when I'm editing the show instead of Myke, I put it back to the wacky wacky

00:50:48   or synth version, which is what makes it even weirder. You wanted more guitar, but you use

00:50:53   the synth one way or the other. I was afraid that it was a little too cheesy for our primary

00:50:57   theme song, but once it was the primary theme song, having the weirdly cheesy synth version,

00:51:03   uh, by Chris Breen, who was my coworker at Mac world for a very long time and he works

00:51:08   at Apple now. Um, but, uh, thank you to Chris for doing that theme song. So great. Uh, but

00:51:16   I felt like it needed a start and I thought, well, how about a startup chime? And I played

00:51:20   with it and that was what I came up with was the original Mac startup chime followed by

00:51:25   the music starting was like, really, I thought that sounded great. So it was really just

00:51:29   me kind of making a judgment that I thought I wanted the show to start with a startup

00:51:34   chime because like if the, if the upgrade music had started with a, with a big flourish,

00:51:39   I would not have done it, but it didn't, it sort of like started slowly and then built.

00:51:44   And so I wanted that, that kind of gating thing at the beginning. So it really was just

00:51:47   kind of a creative process of kind of following why I was feeling the way I was about how I wanted

00:51:52   the show to sound. And I edited, we should mention this again. I edited episode one because we had to,

00:51:57   it was under embargo for an iPhone review embargo episode one was, and you were on holiday. So we

00:52:03   recorded that episode, uh, like the weekend before, and then, uh, I edited it and posted it.

00:52:11   So I was making those decisions about like the theme song. You hadn't even heard the theme song.

00:52:17   I had not heard the theme song at all before the first time I heard it was when it was released

00:52:23   to everybody. So that I had a lot of faith in you and Chris.

00:52:27   And, and, and so as a part of that process, and I've done a million other podcasts, right? I've

00:52:33   been thinking about creatively, like, how do I want this to start? And it doesn't sound right

00:52:36   like this. And there were no rules. We were just figuring it out. And I thought startup beep

00:52:40   sounded good in that place. And that's why what's fun about that. Speaking of the, the

00:52:44   synth version versus the guitar version is it does let us play with it and do things like have

00:52:50   a different max startup chime, which is hilarious. We do that from time to time.

00:52:54   There was a time that I can't remember why, but we did a different chime every week for a while.

00:52:59   Was that during the summer of, I don't even remember.

00:53:01   It was, I think it was, I think it was the summer of fun and we rolled through,

00:53:04   or maybe it was somebody asked a question about the startup chime and then we started messing

00:53:08   with the startup chime. I don't know. I think it may have been the first summer of fun before

00:53:11   we had the theme. Uh, yeah, right. So we, we had a folder full of those. And then what we asked Chris

00:53:16   for was we wanted to do the surf guitar summer of fun version of the upgrade theme. And I

00:53:21   specifically asked him to have it start with that little slidey guitar thing. Like you'd hear in a

00:53:26   David Lynch movie or something like that. And it's perfect. So he's emulating the startup chime.

00:53:33   We'll come back to that in a second. And we will get back to that in a second. So anyway, that's,

00:53:36   that's the idea of the chime. Uh, it is retro, which I like. It says something about Apple on

00:53:41   the Mac, but also we just felt like appropriate and then we can mess with it, which is also great.

00:53:45   And one of my favorite Easter eggs is the episode when Apple TV plus launched,

00:53:49   I used the Apple TV plus chime for that episode.

00:53:53   Yes, because Apple TV plus has a startup chime. It's hilarious. Whoever thought of that,

00:54:00   bless your heart that, that Apple TV plus shows start with a startup chime. It's the best. It's

00:54:06   great. The question answer of this question is Zach, Zach Knox, who is important in upgrade law,

00:54:12   because whenever we have interactive draft scorecards, I think there will probably be

00:54:18   one for this episode. There will be one in a couple of weeks for the WWC draft is that creates

00:54:22   those. And Zach also helped me develop, uh, the upgrade website, um, uh, upgrade ease.com, which

00:54:28   is the hall of fame. So Zach helped me build that in, in the sense of like Zach built it. There's

00:54:33   the help is Zach did it. Um, and I helped with, with, with, by doing everything. Yeah. And Zach

00:54:41   is also a mod in the, uh, in the discord and the members discord. Um, another question from the

00:54:46   discord comes from Molly's and I moved this one up in the document for obvious reasons.

00:54:51   Of all the bad things going on in the world, I miss the summer of fun and the relaxing worry free

00:54:55   musical notes that accompany it. Could you play the theme music for me just this once, please?

00:55:00   Yes. I will definitely play that theme music for you because we were just talking about it. So

00:55:04   that's going to play right now. Speaking of the summer of fun. Oh, that felt good. Right. I feel

00:55:20   like I just was on the beach. It's going to start in a few weeks. So I'm looking forward to that.

00:55:25   Don't know what we're going to do yet, but that's the fun. That's that is the fun. That's where the

00:55:29   fun comes from. And after WWDC, we decided that the summer of fun can't begin until WWDC is over.

00:55:35   Yeah. And depending on how action packed WWDC is, it will either start the episode after or the

00:55:40   episode after that. So we'll see, it depends on how much stuff there is to talk about. We may have

00:55:45   to usher it in like at the end of our WWDC recap episode, we may have to like usher it in and say,

00:55:51   yeah, we now like, like when one Antonio Samoranch stood on the podium at the Olympics and said,

00:55:56   I now declare these Olympic games open. We'll do that. But for the summer of fun, it's a deep cut

00:56:02   one Antonio Samoranch. I hope people recognize how deep that cut is. Anyway. And again, thanks to

00:56:07   Chris Breen for that music and all the music, the draft music, the upgraded music, Chris composed

00:56:12   them all. And then he does all the variations and, um, it's, they're great and he's a great sport and

00:56:17   it's a fun, uh, you know, he's, he basically does the theme song of all of my podcasts. So thank you

00:56:23   to Chris for all the theme songs, all the brain themes. Uh, I assume a different Chris asked,

00:56:30   tell us about some personal accomplishments and milestones that you've each achieved outside of

00:56:34   upgrade over the course of these 300 episodes. I have four and they're pretty big. Uh, I made

00:56:41   podcasting my professional career. I was professional podcasters. I was not, I was not

00:56:46   like a self-employed podcast. It went up. Great. Started. Um, I have grown a company around all of

00:56:53   this relay. FM has grown into the thing that is today. Uh, I got married and bought my first home

00:56:58   over the course of these episodes. Life stuff. Big, big stuff. Yeah. But you're in a very

00:57:05   different place than you were for episode one. Yeah. Um, I, episode one occurred a week after I

00:57:15   left a job that I'd had for, um, I'd been continuously employed for like 20 years

00:57:21   because I came over from a Mac user to Mac world and essentially, uh, other than some, you know,

00:57:31   an internship at my local newspaper and some food service jobs summers at college, it was my first

00:57:38   job and it was my only job and upgrade one came out when I left it like a week before to go do

00:57:48   question Mark, like start a website. And there was no gap. There was no like, well, I'm going to

00:57:54   take some time off and think about it because the iPhone event happened the week that I left IDG and

00:57:59   I got the phone and was under embargo and that we all know that's the biggest week of our year in

00:58:05   terms of listener interest and reader interest. So we had to go right then. So we had to do upgrade

00:58:11   one right then we had to launch six colors right then. So no break. And on the precipice, my wife

00:58:17   and I had been taking walks for a couple of years talking about like, how long are we going to give

00:58:20   this? Is this going to work? What are the risks? How are we going to survive? We don't have any,

00:58:25   uh, health insurance. We're going to have to pay for that. All these things that were going on.

00:58:29   So what's happened in the intervening 300 episodes is I'm still doing that. It worked. So that's,

00:58:35   that's the biggest one for me is that I went from my first job and the sort of quote unquote safety

00:58:41   of a corporate job that I was burned out on and hating for the last year or two that I was there

00:58:46   to a job that I love that I do from my house, which everybody does a job from their house now,

00:58:51   it seems, but I, I, I have been doing it all of this time, um, building up six colors. Um,

00:58:57   I sent my daughter off to college, then she came back because of the pandemic, but we did send her

00:59:02   off and that was a big thing. And I'll put in there, um, this is not quite outside of upgrade

00:59:07   or not. I got to do a bunch of amazing live events and it's not just like the upgrade live events,

00:59:12   but it's like the relay live events. And that means a WWDC and the relay fifth anniversary

00:59:18   event where I got to host the family feud. And, and you know what, uh, if you don't already know

00:59:24   this about me, um, being in front of a live audience, I love it. I love it. I don't get

00:59:29   stage fright. I love it. So that has been amazing for my life too. But I would say the biggest thing

00:59:36   is, yeah, I was going out on my own and had zero expectation of whether I was going to be able to

00:59:40   make it when we did episode one. And I, I have been here ever since, which is awesome.

00:59:45   **Mark asked, how did you become aware of each other? What was the first time you met in person?

00:59:51   So, I mean, I've been aware of Jason for a very, very, very long time has just,

00:59:58   you know, from, I don't know, that's sorry, Jason, from when I was a kid.

01:00:02   We'll get to that. We'll get to that in a minute. Uh, you know, it's just like, maybe it's

01:00:08   just reading Mac world or whatever. It was like a 15 year old, like,

01:00:11   I have to admit, I, for a project that I have not announced yet, I've been looking through a lot of

01:00:16   old issues of, uh, of Mac world and Mac user and seeing things that I've written or I know I worked

01:00:22   on about things that I consider ancient history. And I think to myself, geez, like, wow. Yeah.

01:00:30   I used to read Mac world magazine, you know, I used to read the website. Um, and then when

01:00:34   social media was a thing, I was been following Jason. The first time that we spoke was in, uh,

01:00:40   2012, March of 2012, when I had Jason on my first podcast, he was an interview guest.

01:00:45   I found the email that I sent to him. Yep. I found it too. And I wanted to read the topics

01:00:51   that we spoke about on this episode back in March of 2012. Yeah. There's a classic,

01:00:55   there's one for the time capsule. Yeah. The new iPad one week on, and it would be great to know

01:01:01   your opinions having seen it at the event. If you're able to talk about it, I don't know what

01:01:05   iPad, like that's just an iPad. That would have been the third year of the iPad. Maybe that was

01:01:10   the, like the retina first retina iPad in March, 2012. I don't know. Uh, second thing was Twitter

01:01:18   buying poster us and what we think they may want it for. I don't know what posters is.

01:01:24   Do you have any idea what that is? Uh, I just, um, I just searched for it and it's posterous

01:01:32   at posterous on Twitter. A poster is no longer in surface. Posterous was a simple blogging

01:01:38   platform started in May, 2008. It's supported integrated and automatic posting to other social

01:01:44   media tools such as flicker and Twitter, Tumblr's biggest rival. So Tumblr says,

01:01:49   thanks for killing posterous. My word. I now remember this cause the logo looked like a

01:01:55   post-it note. Wow. Look at that. That's how time flies, I suppose. And also the up-ground upcoming

01:02:02   angry birds space game. Are we excited or do we have red bird fatigue? They were the things that

01:02:08   we spoke about and you said, sounds great. So I was very happy to, I still am sort of like that

01:02:14   where I will sometimes get emails from people who are like, Hey, would you like to be on my podcast?

01:02:18   And I try to say yes. Right. Because even that, you know, you never know. I don't say yes because

01:02:23   you never know when you're going to be working for that person with that person for 300 episodes.

01:02:27   But more like, why not? Like it's nice. It helps if they want it. It's nice that they thought of

01:02:32   me and all of that. So I, yeah, that was, I remember nothing about that. Other than I do,

01:02:38   I do remember doing it. I remember sitting in the podcast studio at IDG and recording that,

01:02:44   but that's like, I don't remember anything we talked about. No. And the first time we met was,

01:02:52   I mean, we'd by that point, um, after that point, I had you on my various shows multiple times.

01:03:00   Right. Um, we'd met, uh, I guess the first time we met was at a Mac world party at WWDC.

01:03:09   Oh yeah. So we, we had a party at WWDC for several years. Cause Mac world was in San Francisco,

01:03:15   unlike so many, like even the people who are in our sphere, who are in the Bay area,

01:03:20   a lot of them are at Apple or in the Silicon Valley. Right. But Mac world was in San Francisco,

01:03:26   downtown. We were a little bit of a hike, right? It was like six blocks or something to get there

01:03:29   up a hill. It's not easy. You have to work for it a little bit, but we were proximate enough that I

01:03:34   thought, and we had a nice terrace like that we could do a party on. So we did one for a few years

01:03:40   and I, I made up the guest list, which was weird for me. I hadn't done that before. And so I

01:03:45   invited sort of everybody I knew, um, which included all sorts of sort of Apple related

01:03:52   luminaries and, uh, and you guys too. Yeah. That was my first WWDC in 2013. And I,

01:04:00   I vividly remember getting a DM from you. I was in my hotel room and you said, Hey,

01:04:05   do you want to come to the Mac world party? And I was like, Oh my God. Cause I knew about the Mac

01:04:09   world party because when people would go to WWDC, they would take pictures from the little terrace

01:04:14   and they'll post them online. It's like, if you were someone who's just following along with this

01:04:18   stuff from home, as I was up until that point, I knew this part, he existed. And then a few

01:04:23   years later we co-hosted it really. FM co-hosted the pie. Yeah. I think that was the last time it

01:04:27   happened after I left actually, which was really funny. Cause I got to go back there and be like,

01:04:32   yeah, I'm with these guys. We put you on the guest list. So you obviously weren't on the guest list

01:04:37   and I just invited you at the last minute. And I said, yeah, we got room. Come on over.

01:04:40   Yep. Don't say it like that. You just, you just figured that I wouldn't be there, you know, and

01:04:44   then you saw me, you saw that I was in town and you were like, Hey, come over. Yeah. That was

01:04:48   pretty good. It's a lot of pressure making a guest list. I don't know that many people. So it's like,

01:04:53   who am I going to? And then it's always like, Oh, I forgot. Oh, you're in town, please come

01:04:56   to the party. And then Damon Wayans walks in and you're like, how did that happen? But

01:05:01   true story. Every year, Damon Wayans would arrive and it was always like Naomi Pierce brought him.

01:05:06   I think that I think that's how that worked and I don't know how that happened. And yeah, those

01:05:11   are, those are fun thing. Uh, Jorvik in the relay from discord asked, what was the most surprise

01:05:17   that you have been by one of your co-hosts opinions or purchases? Uh, mine was when you told me you

01:05:23   used a calendar as your task manager. It's a classic. I was very upset about that. As I,

01:05:28   as I explained myself, I feel like you got a little less irate about it. Yeah. Because I kind

01:05:35   of like built up the, the idea of blocking time to work on tasks. Yeah. But it still was, yes,

01:05:42   it's still very much offended you. I do kind of have some task managers that I sort of use now,

01:05:46   although I still do block out time and find it very effective to say, in fact, now that,

01:05:50   now that to do a support is inside fantastic Cal, I will have, I have a recurring to do that is at a

01:05:55   time on the week to write my Mac world column and I check it off and it's like two P on Tuesdays,

01:06:02   right? The Mac world column. So it's still in the calendar, but it's also a thing I can check off.

01:06:06   And it is very satisfying to check off the checkboxes by the way. But yeah, that was,

01:06:10   I remember blowing your mind and many other people's minds with my ridiculous calendar

01:06:15   based system, but I was also coming from a place where I was over scheduled. I was in lots and lots

01:06:19   of meetings at IDG. Yeah. And the only way I could get things done was by blocking off time. And so

01:06:24   it came out of that, I think too, where I'd be like, I'm going to write my column now two to four

01:06:30   don't schedule me for anything during this period, because like some of those people could see my

01:06:35   calendar and they'd see free free time and they'd pop things in there. So I would block them with

01:06:40   space for me to do other things. For me, part of it, and it still gets me from time to time

01:06:48   is your casual description of how you've got two iPads that you use for different tasks.

01:06:52   It's still, I don't even know what it is about that. It's just, it always strikes me as like

01:06:58   two iPads, but it just, it's always the multi-pad lifestyle originally hit me as being kind of wacky.

01:07:05   I don't know. I get why you do it, but it is wacky. Also, I would say, at several points,

01:07:12   I just forget how much younger you are than I am. And it comes up sometimes with Myke at the movies,

01:07:16   like famously, I heard from a lot of people about you not understanding that save the whales was a

01:07:20   thing in the eighties and therefore not understanding the entire premise of Star Trek

01:07:24   for being resonant because save the whales was a thing. And you're like, what whales? They're fine.

01:07:28   It's like, wow. Okay. You're right. You did not actually live through that. And I had forgotten

01:07:35   or my favorite moment where I felt like I was a million years old is when you, when I talked

01:07:39   about crowded house with you, my favorite band and you said, Oh, my mom loved crowded house. We

01:07:44   had the greatest hits CD. I thought, yep, that's it. My favorite band is the band that your mom

01:07:50   likes. I liked them too, but, uh, yeah, but it was a, it was a happy childhood memory of music

01:07:56   your mother played. I was like, okay. Yeah. So that's it for me. You're only as young as you

01:08:02   feel Myke. Then maybe I feel older. You feel younger. We're somewhere around the same age.

01:08:06   I don't know how I'm feeling right now. We all feel old now. We're all a hundred years old.

01:08:14   Sam in a discord asked, uh, what have you accomplished with the show that you're most proud

01:08:20   of? Um, also the flip side, what would you want to improve or change in the future? Um, I think one

01:08:28   of my things that I am the most proud of is the upgrades. I love it. Um, it was one of those things

01:08:35   where I think when, when I first proposed it, you were a little bit like, here goes Myke with one of

01:08:40   these wild ideas. Yeah. Right. And also keep in mind, it was like literally episode like 10 or

01:08:45   something. We hadn't even been doing the show for a year. Yeah. I think we did it. Didn't we do the,

01:08:50   and it was the first, it was the first annual remember. I was very, I was very opposed to that

01:08:56   because, uh, it's not, there's no such thing as a, as a first annual episode 16 was the upgrade

01:09:02   is for 2014. The first ever upgrade is, is what I demanded that we call it. Yeah. But then I was

01:09:08   right. It did become an annual tradition. I love it. It's, it's grown into something that like I

01:09:14   genuinely look forward to every single year and like think a lot about. And it's really something

01:09:19   that I love. Um, so I'm happy that we do that in the things of what would you want to improve or

01:09:23   change in the future? I would like to do some more in depth topics that take more time to research and

01:09:31   stuff like that. I don't really have ideas for what they could be, but it's just something that

01:09:35   has been on my mind. Well, we did that one segment a little while ago that was kind of like the big

01:09:39   picture kind of thing where we tried to just disconnect a little bit from the week in week out

01:09:45   and kind of zoom back and talk about the big picture. And that's a thing that I think fits

01:09:49   with our format and yet is furthering it in a way that is good. What about you? For me, I would say

01:09:57   having worked with Apple PR people for over coverage, you know, invite to this event

01:10:04   review of this, all of that for years now. I think it was a milestone when I got a call from Apple PR

01:10:11   specifically because of upgrade. Yeah, that's nice. And it's that Colleen Novielli, uh,

01:10:19   interview that I did in New York City. That was an invite that I got not because I was the guy who

01:10:27   writes about Apple stuff for Six Colors, but because they wanted me to interview somebody

01:10:33   and they felt and they felt that upgrade was a good fit for a Mac. It was an iMac, right?

01:10:41   For an interview about a new Mac. And I thought this is a real milestone that our show is the

01:10:50   reason that I'm getting this call from Apple and not my writing. So that was a big one for me. And

01:10:58   it's happened since then, right? But for me, that was a real milestone of upgrade. That upgrade was

01:11:05   taken seriously and part of Apple's launch plan for this product. And that was unusual and good.

01:11:12   And on the flip side, I always want us to keep searching for other trends like with Upstream,

01:11:20   where we, what I'm really happy about Upstream is that we started talking about Apple's strategy and

01:11:26   the other streaming media stuff long before there was anything. And I felt like we did a good job

01:11:33   covering it as it came into reality. And it did also mean that at that moment where Apple TV+

01:11:41   launched, not only were we there with this whole history of talking about it, and so we really knew

01:11:46   what the history was and what they were trying to do, but I feel like our listeners were super

01:11:52   well-educated about what was going on. And I would see it on Twitter sometimes where I'd see people

01:11:57   who very clearly had listened to upgrade and were like, "Oh, well, Apple's doing it because of this."

01:12:01   And I'm like, "That's awesome." It's not just about us. Look at how cool we are that we talked

01:12:06   about this years in advance, but it's also like we talked about it with the listeners. And so when

01:12:10   that happened, all the upgradians are like, "Yeah, okay. I've been following it. I know what's going

01:12:14   on," which is awesome. So I'd love to continue watching for opportunities to do stuff like that.

01:12:20   The things that strike us as interesting that are maybe a little longer term, and we plant the seed,

01:12:26   and then we just watch it grow for a couple of years. That's really nice. I like that.

01:12:30   John in the Discord asked, "What was the most unexpectedly delightful thing to happen on the

01:12:36   show?" It is for me when Jason and Federico nearly killed me on air in episode 26 of Upgrade,

01:12:47   where we started the show, the show began, we were talking beforehand, and then it turned out

01:12:53   that Federico was sitting in the studio with Jason because it was after the Apple Watch,

01:12:58   Apple event where Federico went out. And I emitted a noise which can only be described as a man's

01:13:06   brain just breaking. I will play a clip now so you can hear that in case you've never heard that

01:13:12   episode. He got an invite. We'll talk about that on Connected. That's a whole big story. I'm looking

01:13:18   forward to Connected this week, actually. Or we can talk about it now if you want, Myke.

01:13:22   Hello. Oh my god, that really scared me. Hi Federico.

01:13:28   Hi Myke. How are you? What are you doing there?

01:13:30   A podcast, I feel. How long have you been there? The whole time.

01:13:34   The whole time. It's good I didn't say anything bad about you. Hey buddy.

01:13:40   Hi. Now I know that I can trust you because you didn't say anything bad about me.

01:13:45   Yeah, so the story there is that that was where the first time any of us met Federico, right?

01:13:51   I think I'd met him before because he came to London to do a briefing for an iPad.

01:13:56   I mean, all of us Americans who go to Apple events knew who he was, but we'd never seen him in person.

01:14:04   And so that was great. He's very tall. And that was my memory. It's like, oh, he's very tall, this

01:14:10   gentleman. We went out to lunch with a few of us and then went back to the Macworld studios because

01:14:20   I had to do the thing. And it was very much like a collaboration of wouldn't it be funny if you just

01:14:25   came on the podcast and you'd be a guest, but also you'd blow Myke's mind. And then what we decided

01:14:31   to do is not mention it to you and have him sit there silently until that moment when he spoke

01:14:37   and blew your mind. Because there was also before the show, I was complaining about him to you

01:14:43   because he wasn't answering my text messages. The reason he wasn't answering the text messages is

01:14:48   because he was with you getting rid of the scammy. Yes. Which happened. I would say my most delightful

01:14:56   thing that happened is that we had this dumb idea, one of my dumb ideas for Upgrade Christmas Special,

01:15:03   holiday special. It was the Christmas Carol. It was episode 225. And the idea there, the very

01:15:09   loose idea was past, present, future. And like, how can we hang the Christmas Carol

01:15:15   concept on Upgrade? And it was like, we'll talk to Steven about the past. We'll talk to Rosemary

01:15:21   about the present. And we'll talk to Federico about the future. And I felt like that was,

01:15:27   that was a good set of guests and it would be a fun kind of thing. And Federico representing kind

01:15:33   of the iPad and other things that are going on looking at Apple would be like a good future goes

01:15:38   to future Apple. What I didn't expect was that Federico would do the entire episode in character

01:15:46   as himself coming back from the future to reveal all the details of everything that happened in the

01:15:51   future. And it's amazing, like amazing. And I tried to do the past thing with Steven and it

01:15:58   fell apart very quickly, but Federico was incredibly committed to the role. Yeah. I didn't

01:16:03   want Steven to stay there because it was going to be us. It was going to be the same bit, except we

01:16:07   would be surprising, surprising Steven with facts of the present. And we're all aware of the facts

01:16:12   of the present. So I thought that would be kind of boring, but Federico was committed to the bit

01:16:17   in a level of detail that I never expected. And he went to a lot of very weird places. And that was,

01:16:23   if you were talking about unexpectedly delightful, that has got to be it for me.

01:16:27   - Yeah. If you've not heard that episode, that's one really worth listening to. I'll put it in the

01:16:31   show notes. - It's bananas. And then more broadly, the back and forth with us and the audience about

01:16:37   ideas like, you know, upgradians as a term, which was brought by the listener, dongle town,

01:16:43   and the whole kind of like spinning out of where dongle town is. And it's, you know, it's summer

01:16:49   of fun connotations and it's sports connotations and things like that has been very fun. And then

01:16:55   even some bits that we did that we then discarded later for new dumb bits that always happens,

01:17:01   like verticals. We had verticals for a while, which are segments essentially, but we were joking

01:17:05   about them and calling them verticals because that's an industry term and we don't do that

01:17:09   anymore, but that was a fun thing for the first 40 episodes or whatever. So that's, I love that back

01:17:14   and forth of sort of silly bits that recur for a while. - Well, 'cause some of the verticals just

01:17:18   became part of the show, so then they just became part of the show, like "Ask upgrade," for example.

01:17:23   - Yeah. Everybody knows it's really a vertical, but we don't talk about them anymore.

01:17:28   - The internet's friend Casey asked, "What is the biggest pinch yourself moment?" I think I had two

01:17:34   that immediately jumped out to me. One was the Colleen Novielli interview that you mentioned

01:17:39   earlier. Colleen was the first Apple guest that we'd had. We've had a few since, but that was like,

01:17:43   really? Whoa, okay, right? Like when you were telling me all that stuff about like, they want

01:17:48   to bring me in for our show, like it was amazing. And then also in episode 56, John Gruber linked to

01:17:55   the show and mentioned that "Upgrade" was a favorite show of his, which again, if you go back to Myke

01:18:01   going all the way back in his history as like a 15-year-old boy reading tech news on the internet,

01:18:07   you know, I've always really respected John Gruber. And I didn't, I don't really think I knew that he

01:18:12   listened to the show at all at that point. And then when he linked to the episode, which is a

01:18:17   classic episode, which is episode 56, "The Migration Experience," where we talk about

01:18:22   how frustrating it was to upgrade an iOS device. And John mentions that "Upgrade" is

01:18:30   one of his favorite podcasts, which really meant a lot to me. Yeah, very generous of him to say that.

01:18:35   And that was a fun episode too. For me, it's similar. When they started regularly mentioning

01:18:44   "Upgrade" on Accidental Tech Podcast, which is the one tech podcast I listen to every single week,

01:18:52   I try to listen to others, but that's the one that's at the top of my list. That's why it's

01:18:56   a Lifetime Achievement Award winner. Yeah, and it kept happening. That's the part that gets me,

01:19:01   is that they mention it once and I'm like, "Wow, that's great. That's awesome that they're talking

01:19:06   about that." But they do, they cite us a lot. And it's every time I, I mean, they mentioned my name

01:19:12   sometimes in passing. I'm like, "But it's so weird to listen to one of your regular favorite podcasts,

01:19:18   and then somebody just casually mentions your name on the podcast and then they go on." And I kind of

01:19:24   haven't gotten over that of like, "What? But, huh? Where'd that come from?" Kind of disconcerting,

01:19:29   but also a lot of fun. So that's, for me, that has honestly been it, is I know those guys. So it's

01:19:34   not like, "Oh, I can't believe they noticed me." I know those guys, but they don't need to talk

01:19:40   about other podcasts on their podcast. They don't need to say nice things. They don't need to cite us

01:19:43   or say, as Marco has done several times, you should really, and Casey and John too, you should

01:19:48   really listen to this week's episode of "Upgrade." Marco does that all the time, even now. And it's

01:19:53   just, it's very nice to say, "They really covered this well. You should go listen to that." Not only

01:19:59   is that good because they have a big audience and they're sending people to listen to us, but I'm

01:20:04   honored by that. That's because it's a podcast that I listen to. I don't need to go listen to

01:20:08   "Upgrade" though, because I've already heard it. All right. We have more Ask "Upgrade" from the

01:20:13   Upgradients to go, but before we do, let me thank our final sponsor, and that is Squarespace. You can

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01:21:58   continued support of this show and all of Relay FM Squarespace. Make your next move,

01:22:02   make your next website. So continuing the #askupgrade from Tim. What have you not

01:22:10   accomplished with the show that you would like to in the future? This is bouncing on something

01:22:14   you mentioned earlier. We've done some live stuff for this show. I want to do a large live show for

01:22:19   upgrade. I thought about what it would take to do a live upgrade at WWDC in the past. It would

01:22:28   be difficult if we wanted to keep it on Monday and if we wanted to do how we usually do it,

01:22:34   which is right after the keynote, but maybe one day. But even if it's not WWDC, I want to do a

01:22:40   large live show one day. We talked about before all of this was going on, we talked about doing

01:22:45   something. We did one show in Chicago that was a live upgrade. That was really great. And we filled

01:22:54   the Cards Against Humanity theater. And it was luckily enough was a draft week. Yeah. And a

01:23:01   draft I lost because I was caught in the lights. I was just so dazzled by the lights and the audience.

01:23:05   Oh, come on. I performed really badly. Why do you have to? You win all of them,

01:23:09   right? Like just, you know. I was off my game, Myke. I was just too feeling the love and off

01:23:16   my game. You were just picking joke picks to make the audience laugh, right? Oh man, kind of, but

01:23:21   also just bad judgment. Anyway, I know you won that one fair and square. But yes, I would love

01:23:27   to do that too. That would be really great to do a proper upgrade again in front of an audience.

01:23:33   And one day we'll have audiences again and we'll do that. And Zach asks, Zach's got another question

01:23:40   in. Do you find that the more segmented nature of upgrade helps you in producing the show compared

01:23:45   to looser format shows that you also make? Yeah. It's a yes and no for me. Really? Why and no?

01:23:53   So yes, because I can kind of like, we've got this, this and this to do. It helps me with

01:23:59   timing of the show. Like I know how long the segments are going to be and we can, you know,

01:24:04   like especially with Ask Upgrade, if there isn't a lot of news, we always have this world that we can

01:24:08   come back to to help with topics. Stuff like that is great. But sometimes if I want to have a

01:24:16   segment in a show, I may have to work harder to find news for it. That's true, right? It does.

01:24:21   It creates an assignment. And this is something we'll come back to. I think later on there's a

01:24:26   question that's similar to this, but when you're making a podcast, right? So we did episode one.

01:24:30   We then did an episode every single week and now we're at 300 of them. This is the secret of doing

01:24:36   something like this or publishing back in the day, publishing a magazine or doing a website, right?

01:24:42   It's like, it's a treadmill. You're not creating a single thing. You're creating a whole system

01:24:46   that you then need to stay on forever until you stop doing it. And that means that every time you

01:24:53   do something, you have to look at it, not as this would be fun, but as this will be fun, but I'm

01:25:00   also committing to a certain amount of work forever until I discard this thing. And that's

01:25:05   always the bit that gives me, and I think you, an appropriate amount of hesitation about committing.

01:25:12   Not that we don't commit to things because we do, but that you got to be sure because it will create

01:25:19   an expectation and more work for you. And more work isn't necessarily bad, but you,

01:25:25   there, you've got a limited amount of work that you can commit. So you got to make the right

01:25:28   decisions about it. I will also mention, I had never, I'd done a lot of podcasts. I had done,

01:25:38   you know, whatever, 300 episodes ish of the incomparable when we launched upgrade,

01:25:42   cause the incomparable is at like 515 or something now. So 200 some episodes of the incomparable,

01:25:50   but I'd never had a podcast of my own where there was the same hosts every week. There was

01:25:57   continuity. There was follow-up comparable is different panels every week. So you can't really

01:26:03   do follow-up and we record some of them in advance, but even if you didn't, you tried

01:26:07   to schedule feedback. Like people be like, I don't like what John Syracuse has said. I mean,

01:26:10   who are we kidding? Nobody would ever say that about John Syracuse. I don't know. I don't like

01:26:14   what Steve Lutz said about this movie and Steve's not there that week. So I can read the comment,

01:26:21   but like, there's nobody to answer it except me. And I didn't make that. Like, there was no,

01:26:26   the incomparable I've said this many times is a show that I love and I've done it for 10 years

01:26:31   almost now. And it's great. It is a catalog of what not to do in a podcast like the, the there's

01:26:37   panels are too big. There's too many different rotating panelists. So there's no continuity.

01:26:41   There's all these things. And I wanted to do a show with upgrade. It was like, Oh,

01:26:44   I finally can do that tech podcast. You know, like all those other tech podcasts where we talk

01:26:49   and we're the same every week and we can do follow-up and there's continuity because people

01:26:53   listen last week and this week and it's the same people. And so that's one of the reasons that I

01:26:57   love the segments in upgrade is because I never got to do that on any other podcast. And it's

01:27:04   so much fun to have that as a change of pace from a lot of the other things that I do. So,

01:27:08   I do enjoy it. I like that it focuses us on certain topics. I will, you know,

01:27:14   I will send you links for upstream during the week, like, here's something that happened.

01:27:18   And that's, and so I do like that. I wouldn't want our show to just be segments every week. Right?

01:27:24   Like I think the, the, the big gap in the middle where it's just sort of like topics go here

01:27:29   is very important for us to be relevant week to week and to not feel like it's super programmed

01:27:35   and like a radio show or something where we have a format and we hit it every week. And then we're

01:27:39   just filling, you know, filling blocks of time with product. And I that's too much. That's too processed.

01:27:45   Yeah. We, we saw like, even though we have all the segments that we have, like

01:27:50   we don't force them. Like if I have no news for upstream, I won't include the segment.

01:27:55   But I do, you know, saying about follow-up was funny to me. I remember how excited you were

01:28:01   about follow-up. Oh man. We had to, over time, I had to like reign you in because you, you would

01:28:08   happily do an hour of follow-up. Oh yeah. Right. And so, you know, I had to let you get it out of

01:28:13   your system. No other podcasts would do an hour of follow-up, Myke. No, no other popular Apple-themed

01:28:19   tech podcasts spend most of their show on follow-up. Let's just say I didn't want to do an

01:28:23   hour of follow-up. But you're right. Thank you. Thank you for saving me from myself. Yeah. Fair enough.

01:28:27   It wasn't good for upgrade. Yeah. But early on it was absolutely, it was like catnip. It's like,

01:28:32   oh my God, we have follow-up. We have continuity. Let's lean into it. And then we got our,

01:28:36   it's there when we need it. And it's a nice thing. And I love that there's that conversation that

01:28:43   goes back and forth about stuff like that. I love it. But I also am not going to eat up the whole

01:28:48   show with it anymore, which is, which is good. There are some shows, many episodes where we don't do it.

01:28:54   Like, like this one. We just didn't have any follow-up today. There was nothing because we

01:28:58   watched everything correct last time. That's why. Rob in the Discord asked if you could give a

01:29:03   message to yourselves before episode one, what would it be? Well, for me, it's, this will be exactly

01:29:09   what you hope it is. Oh, that's nice. Oh, Jason. That's nice. Yeah. Oh, that got me. Oh boy.

01:29:19   I wasn't expecting that. It's in the show notes, I guess. I didn't read it though. Ah, that's good.

01:29:27   Spoilers. I said that, that, so, cause mine's different, that this show is going to exceed

01:29:35   every possible goal you could set for yourself. And so I, I, that, that means a lot to me that you

01:29:42   said that. Well, we hadn't, we'd spoken a few times, but we hadn't done something this expansive together.

01:29:49   No. And we were taking a chance, right? We were taking a chance. And, and, and I was like, I think

01:29:54   Myke's the guy. I think this is, this is the thing we can do. And I'd listen, I mean, you'd listen to

01:29:58   me and I'd listen to you, but that's not the same. No. And you know, like, if this works, this is what

01:30:04   it will be like, and that is what it is like. So thumbs up, Myke. Thank you. Um, Molly's asked,

01:30:11   what is the most listened to episode so far? I didn't know the answer to this. I had to go check it.

01:30:17   And I was both surprised and pleased. Um, episode 249, which is, uh, the episode the week after WWDC

01:30:28   last year featuring just, uh, Josh Sheffer and Willie Hodges from Apple discussing Swift UI and Catalyst

01:30:35   and also iPadOS 13. I was really surprised about that, honestly. Um, because it just,

01:30:42   I, I just figured that maybe the WWDC episode that week would have been more because they're typically

01:30:48   one of our biggest episodes of the year. So that was kind of cool. Also, we, we debated a lot about

01:30:52   how we couldn't, you know, my interview with Josh and Wiley was later in the week and we're like, do

01:30:57   we, we can't wait because we have to do the post episode or post keynote episode. Do we put out

01:31:04   another episode? Do we hold it? Is Apple okay with giving us this interview and then having a sit on

01:31:09   it for four days? I wish they were, which was nice. It turned out that I think that interview,

01:31:16   which was about like deep tech stuff about Swift UI and Catalyst, uh, but trying to make it

01:31:21   understandable for a broader audience, you know, it was, it was a real tight rope for me. I was

01:31:25   really kind of like, how am I going to do this? And I think it turned out fine, but it, um,

01:31:30   lesson learned is by getting it out of WWDC week and letting it breathe a little bit so that people

01:31:40   were kind of like done with the WWDC podcast, they're going home or they, if they never left

01:31:45   home, they're like that, that bulk of them is over. And now this is a new thing. Like,

01:31:50   I think it got more attention because we waited a little bit. So that was an interesting lesson.

01:31:56   Cause also don't forget that WWDC week, every tech podcast had someone from Apple on it. Like

01:32:02   all of the large shows had guests, right? Like it was a bunch of relay shows that had them. And in

01:32:08   the kind of extended universe, um, like lots of people had Apple, uh, employees as guests. So

01:32:15   I don't know if we would've got as much attention on the episode. So it was, uh, hindsight worked

01:32:20   out great. Yeah. And I, I use a lot of, uh, plugins to make, remove the street noise and the echo from

01:32:25   that one. Uh, this is actually closely followed by episode two, two 37, which we mentioned for

01:32:32   the third time, which was the episode of Colleen Novielli, which also had a draft in it. That was

01:32:37   a massive episode. Yeah, that was, um, right. So, so that was the first episode where Apple PR

01:32:43   basically said, we would like you to be, we would like a person on your podcast. It was like, wow.

01:32:47   Um, and cause that was, they hadn't done that, but they did with Renee Richie one time,

01:32:52   like that was it. There was very little precedent for it. And, and so that was a big thing. And yes,

01:32:56   it was a draft episode. So we like recorded different parts at different times. I, we

01:33:01   recorded actually a big chunk of the show with me at home. And then I flew to New York and then did

01:33:07   the interview. And then we did that segment. It was this whole, and we had to pretend like

01:33:11   I was in Romania. Oh my God. Yeah. It was, it was a huge production challenge, but, uh,

01:33:17   so I'm glad people listen to it. Yeah. I recorded with you at like three in the morning or something

01:33:22   at local time in Romania. It was wild. That was fun, but that was wild. Yeah.

01:33:26   Enoch in the discord asked, how do you get your, thank you for this compliment, superb news,

01:33:31   a lot of research. I all week I, uh, I use RSS now I used to use Twitter and stuff like that.

01:33:38   But use RSS now, uh, I have a bunch of sources that I'll be checking. And if I see any tweet

01:33:44   that comes up, I, what I do is I just save all the links from RSS or from Twitter or whatever

01:33:49   to an Apple note. And then on Monday morning, I sit down and go through all of the links I've

01:33:54   collected. Um, and we'll read through them and see what I think is right for the show and put them in.

01:34:00   I wonder if there's a future goal. And I don't know what this is. So we'll just, we'll,

01:34:06   we'll talk about this later, but like, I wonder if we could build a system where you and I are

01:34:11   throwing links into a document somewhere in a, in a fairly straightforward way, or, you know,

01:34:17   maybe you should share your Apple note with me. I could do that. Yeah. And I could put things in it

01:34:20   too. Cause I, right now I just paste them in Slack from time to time and a lot of them, I just let

01:34:23   them go past. So. Well, one big, one good source for me is like, I just look at what you've posted

01:34:29   on six colors. That's what you're interested in. I mean, I certainly, that gives us fodder,

01:34:34   right? Anything that I'm writing during the week is something that we can talk about. Although,

01:34:38   except for the ones that we talk about at first, and then I write about it. Cause it was like

01:34:41   really good. And we had a good conversation. Like I'm going to make that a story for the people who

01:34:45   don't listen to podcasts to read, which is part of that magic of having a podcast. Um, for me,

01:34:52   I want to, I want to thank Myke on the podcast for doing that work because we do the show on Sunday

01:34:58   morning or Monday morning, Pacific time, not Sunday morning, Monday morning, Pacific time.

01:35:03   Sometimes I will pop into the document over the weekend, but you know, it's the weekend.

01:35:07   Sometimes on Sunday, I'll be thinking about something. I'll go in there. I'll see if there's

01:35:11   anything in the document. I might add some things in. It's like, I want to talk about this,

01:35:16   but really I spend like an hour or two before we start doing the show, after I wake up on Monday

01:35:23   morning, looking at the document and thinking about what we're going to do. And so often the

01:35:29   document is just done on Monday morning because Myke has done it on Monday, uh, UK time. And so

01:35:37   the structure and the shape of the document is so much of that is just Myke's work. So thank you for

01:35:42   doing that every week. I help sometimes a lot of times I don't. So thank you. This is, um,

01:35:48   something me and Steven were talking about on our new, uh, podcast backstage, which is for

01:35:54   relay FM members, where we talk about kind of like how to start a podcast and we're talking about

01:36:00   like having co-hosts and stuff like that and preparation. This is just like a thing where,

01:36:04   we need to have a document together. And I, the type of person that I am, I need lots of

01:36:12   notes for shows. I like to have lots of notes. And I think that you don't need as much as I do

01:36:18   is in the sense of an outline. Um, I get the sense that you could come to the show with some

01:36:23   basic talking points, but not to the level that I put together, not to the level that you put

01:36:27   together. That's probably true. But I mean, when, when I was doing download, like that was,

01:36:32   I had to build those show notes every week and it's a lot of work. It is. So thank you for doing

01:36:37   it. Yeah. But it's just kind of the case of like, I would, I need it. So I have no problem doing the

01:36:42   majority of the work. Like I feel like I, I need it maybe more than you do, but Sal asked, how many

01:36:47   hours do you actively spend preparing for an episode? How far in advance and how detailed

01:36:51   is the show outline? So that document that Jason was talking about, it takes me about 90 minutes

01:36:56   every Monday morning to put together. Um, the amount of detail differs from week to week. But

01:37:01   as I said, there's like, there's a lot of research collection happening throughout the week. And

01:37:06   I might have an idea for a topic like Jason does, and I might go into my Apple note and make some

01:37:10   like a, a bulleted list of things that I want to touch on and then expand on it. But that's,

01:37:15   that takes me, uh, around 90 minutes every Monday morning to put together. And that includes like

01:37:21   getting all the upgrade questions and picking the ones that I want to do. Cause like, I don't know

01:37:25   if it's, if we've really made it clear before, but we get lots and lots of questions and I pick

01:37:30   the ones that I think are best for each episode and all that kind of stuff. So, and then I wake

01:37:33   up and somewhere, you know, I will look while I'm having my tea in bed in the morning, but basically

01:37:38   I try to be at my desk around eight and I spend an hour going through the show doc and that's where I

01:37:43   will, um, make sure that I have answers for ask upgrade questions. If there's a question or a

01:37:49   Snell Talk topic that I think is not going to do it for me, I'm not going to give a good answer. I

01:37:54   will flag those and I'll say, Myke, I need a different Snell Talk question or I'll, I'll mark

01:37:59   a, an ask upgrade as, as a crossed out and we shouldn't do it. Um, I'll go through the show

01:38:04   document as well. Sometimes there's a, how, what do we think about this? And then there'll be an

01:38:08   MH. I think about this this way. And then that's the end of it. And I'm like, okay. And then I'll,

01:38:13   I'll add in a little bit of a note. I could just jump in during the show, but I try to add a little

01:38:17   bit of a note of like, here's what I will probably say in, in just a very simple way of like, this is,

01:38:22   this is what you should talk about here, self. Um, and, and we'll put it together that way.

01:38:27   And then sometimes I don't read Jason's notes and then they make me cry on the show.

01:38:31   Exactly right. That's the beauty of it. So, uh, we also, uh, sometimes I will make bigger

01:38:39   creative decisions, which is always problematic when it's an hour before we're going to record.

01:38:43   Sometimes I will say to Myke, I don't know about this topic, or I think we're, I think this is too

01:38:48   much, or I would like to talk about this. Sometimes I'll insert things and Myke will be like, wow,

01:38:53   that's a whole thing. I said, yeah, but I want to talk about it. A lot of times we'll end up

01:38:57   having a conversation then or right before we start recording where we'll be saying, um, the

01:39:02   show may be too long. Uh, sometimes it happens during the show too. We'll be like, let's take

01:39:07   this out and do it next week. Um, sometimes I'll come in before and I'll be like, this is too much.

01:39:12   And he'll say, let's make it a follow-up item or a mini topic instead of making it a full segment.

01:39:17   Cause I, I feel like the balance is off. So I will give it a scan and say like, eh,

01:39:21   this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel like what we should be doing. So there's some of that,

01:39:25   but a lot of that is happening in the, in the hour before. And it makes me feel bad on one level

01:39:30   because I am swooping in at the end of Myke's process and then second guessing him, but it is

01:39:34   also a collaboration between us. So it's like, I never want to do something that Jason doesn't want

01:39:39   to do because then we're not going to have the conversation. It's just going to be me monologuing.

01:39:43   Like if there's a topic you're interested in and this is not a criticism, this is how I would be

01:39:48   too. It's like, I don't want to, if there's a topic that I have nothing to say on, then I have

01:39:52   nothing to say on it. And so I like, and honestly, like I cannot think of any time where we have not

01:39:59   torn up part of the show document where it hasn't worked out for the best. I agree. And we'll go

01:40:03   back and forth. Sometimes we will really disagree and we will go back and forth on where, what the

01:40:07   right solution is, but we always end up with a good solution that is the, that turns out to be

01:40:13   the best one for the finished product. Also, I, you know, I don't, the other part of it is time

01:40:19   wise. Like I don't want us building the show on Friday because stuff happens on over the weekend

01:40:23   and Monday. I don't really want to commit to working. I get, I work enough on the weekend

01:40:29   already. So I don't want to commit to having Sunday be the day that the upgrade document

01:40:34   gets built. And as a result, your, your workday starts on Monday morning and you have that day

01:40:38   while I'm sleeping to build the show doc. So that's sort of how it happens. I was thinking

01:40:43   back, like, I don't even remember when we started doing upgrade on Mondays at 9 AM Pacific. I don't

01:40:51   even remember when we started doing that because you had a job at first. So at some point we,

01:40:56   we settled on this regular time for streaming and stuff like that. But I don't even remember that.

01:41:01   I think if anything, it would have just been a couple of hours later.

01:41:04   Yeah. It would have been Mondays at some time. Yeah. And the first episode of course was,

01:41:08   was prerecorded. So we, we didn't even know. So anyway, that's, that's the answer is that

01:41:13   this thing that you listen to every week, um, you know, we don't just make it up as we go along,

01:41:17   but we're also not reading from a script generally. It's just an outline.

01:41:21   A friend of the show, Brian in the relay fan members discord asked upgrade is a very consistent

01:41:27   show recorded and edited and posted at largely the same time every week. What advice do you

01:41:32   have for people who want to record, edit and release podcasts on the same day?

01:41:35   Who is hard, like it's a lot of work, right? Like if you, if you do things the way that we do them,

01:41:45   it's going to take you all day. Right. Like, cause again, so I say it takes me 90 minutes to prep.

01:41:52   We record typically for like two and a half hours, then I will spend at least another

01:41:59   60 to 90 minutes editing and posting the show. So like upgrade is Monday. Like it's the day,

01:42:06   you know? Um, so the thing about the editing and releasing on the same day is it's, it's a

01:42:13   difficult thing to do. And it's something I can do because I have a lot of experience in editing.

01:42:20   The way that upgrade is edited is whilst we are recording, I have a pen and paper in front of me

01:42:25   and I am noting time codes of all of the things that I need to edit. These can be when me and Jason

01:42:31   are talking over each other excessively. Um, I don't cut out all of that cause I don't think

01:42:36   that all of that should be cut out in a show like ours. Like there can be a little collision. It's

01:42:40   like, it's a little bit, there's a, there's a, there's a right amount of it. Yeah. Thank you.

01:42:45   And I feel like I'm, I do the right amount of editing on there or there'll be like production

01:42:49   notes where it's like, all right, we didn't do that part, right? We had to take that out. Or

01:42:52   like someone, someone like Jason goes to get some tea, which happened in this episode and I'll edit

01:42:56   around that or the audio clips that I put in this episode, I write the times down and I'll put them

01:43:00   in. So that cuts down my editing time because if I edited this show the way that I edit say cortex,

01:43:08   where that's my heaviest edit, I listened to the entire show and edit it as I'm going, like

01:43:12   listening back. That takes me about, say it's like three hours to every hour. And that means upgrade

01:43:20   would not get put out on the same day. So, you know, it, this show is typically around 90 minutes

01:43:27   long. It takes me about an hour to edit that, which is great. I'm working on, which I've not

01:43:33   talked about, but I'll at least mention here, I'm hoping to do a, an online course about podcast

01:43:37   editing. That's my hope. And this keeps coming up. And I think it's a really important point about

01:43:44   the spectrum of editing of a podcast. You can not edit and you can super, super detail edit.

01:43:50   And the truth is you have to choose based on your need. So for upgrade, this is a perfect example,

01:43:57   upgrade gets an edit. Cortex gets a detailed edit. Upgrades edit is more than just posting it live,

01:44:03   but it's kind of assembly based with a little bit of cleanup. So it's, I do similar with the

01:44:10   incomparable. I probably do a little more detailed than upgrade, but not a lot where I have notes

01:44:15   about where we messed up or things I need to take out. And I do that part and things I need to put

01:44:20   in and I'll do that. And then I will scan through looking for over-talking which on the incomparable,

01:44:27   there's a lot of it because it's a big panel. Oh, I also do do that, but there's just not as much.

01:44:30   Yeah. Well, that's what you, when you were talking about over-talking, I mean, it's very much the same

01:44:33   kind of thing where it's like, if I interrupt or there's a false start, we both start talking at

01:44:36   once. You clean that up, but you don't have to listen to the whole show to do that. You can

01:44:40   actually look in your editing app at the wave forums and say, oh, they're talking at the same

01:44:45   time there. Let's listen and see what's broken there. But it, so it's a, it's an edit, but it's

01:44:50   not the heavy edit. And, you know, it comes back to, if you want to release, record, edit and

01:44:54   release on the same day, you're going to make a decision about where you land on that spectrum

01:45:00   in order to get the show out. So if I was, I don't want to say if I was more like Grey,

01:45:06   cause that's not the point, but like if you and I decided that Upgraded needed to be,

01:45:10   Upgrade needed to be made at the level of detail of Cortex, for reasons, we would do it,

01:45:16   but then Upgrade couldn't come out the day that we record it. And I will, I really, really like

01:45:23   that Upgrade comes out the day we record it because we talk about the issues of the, of the day,

01:45:29   and the longer you let a topic, topical podcast sit, the more likely it is to be invalidated by

01:45:34   events, right? So we want to put it out. And so we made that decision. So I think that's my big

01:45:40   advice here is yes, it's hard. Consistency is really important. I thank you for mentioning,

01:45:45   Brian, that Upgrade is consistent. I'm a real believer that podcasts are more successful when

01:45:50   they're consistent. And then you, if you want to be consistent like that, you need to find

01:45:56   where the right place on the editing spectrum is for you to be able to be consistent and be happy

01:46:03   with the final product. And that's hard, but that's sort of what we've settled on here.

01:46:08   And I'm reminded of that every time I have to edit Upgrade.

01:46:11   >> Yeah, like for me, it's, it's, you know, that it wouldn't be terrible if we put Upgrade out on

01:46:20   Tuesday morning, but the problem is I wouldn't be able to have it done by Tuesday morning,

01:46:25   right? Because I do lots of shows, I have lots of things going on. I would like Cortex,

01:46:32   we record and then put the show out like four days later because I can't do all that editing in one

01:46:40   day. I have to break it up because either I don't have the time or it can be bad for my RSI to do

01:46:46   that amount of editing in one day. It just wouldn't like basically if we, if I wanted to, if we wanted

01:46:52   to do a Cortex style edit, which is like really going through and picking it all out, like,

01:46:56   you know, every time one of us repeats a word, cutting it, which is, I do that, right? Like,

01:47:00   if we repeat things, I will cut that up. Upgrade would come out on like Thursdays.

01:47:06   >> Yeah. And that's no good for this podcast. That's not, whereas Cortex, it's fine. And that's

01:47:12   also our time works for us here. You were recording early. It's late. It's in the evening where you

01:47:17   are, but you still have some time that you can work on Monday evening to do it. If you need to

01:47:21   pass it to me, which sometimes happens because you have to go somewhere or, you know, you have

01:47:26   other commitments and you'll pass it to me, I've got all day to do it. I don't take all day. I do

01:47:31   it in a couple of hours right after just as you do, but I've got all day to do it, which is if you

01:47:36   look at something like ATP, they record late in the evening. And there have been times when Marco

01:47:43   has edited that podcast immediately following when he has to get on a plane the next morning

01:47:47   or something like that. But for the most part, like the incomparable, you record late in the

01:47:51   evening and then you edit it later. Right. And that works for them because that recording time

01:47:58   works for them. Upgrade's advantage is that we get out sooner and we only have two hours where

01:48:04   events can invalidate our podcast. And that's, I like that. That's what I'm going for.

01:48:09   >> So I always say to people when they ask, after we press record, every minute,

01:48:14   upgrade's getting out of date. And I hate that. I hate it. And so that's why we get it out as fast

01:48:20   as we can, but whilst maintaining a quality level. >> Whereas in contrast, I just posted an episode

01:48:25   of the incomparable this weekend that we recorded like four weeks ago. So, you know, different kinds

01:48:32   in different places. >> All right. So that wraps it up for this episode. Thank you so much to

01:48:35   everybody who sent in a #askupgrade question. You can do that by tweeting out with the hashtag

01:48:40   askupgrade or if you're in the Relay FM members discord, use the question mark askupgrade and you

01:48:44   can submit a question that way. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode, an Edny episode you

01:48:50   have listened to. Obviously we're in a very celebratory mood today for episode 300. So we

01:48:55   will extend our sincere thanks to you, the Upgradients, the listeners of this show for

01:49:00   tuning in every week that you tune in and for supporting us by buying our merchandise, by being

01:49:06   a member, by sharing the show with people. It means the world to us that we get to produce this

01:49:11   show for all of you and to have seen it grow over time and for there to be more Upgradients like it.

01:49:16   So it's really a wonderful thing. So thank you so much for tuning in. I will say thank you, Jason,

01:49:21   as always, for being a part of this with me. It really has mean the world to me. >> Thank you,

01:49:27   Myke. It all worked out, didn't it? >> It sure did. You can find Jason online. He's @jasonel,

01:49:31   J-S-N-E-L-L and at sixcolors.com and the incomparable.com. I am iMyke, I am Y-K-E. Thank

01:49:37   you to our sponsors for supporting this week's episode, Cotton Bureau, DoorDash and Squarespace.

01:49:42   And we'll be back next week. Well, next week is going to be a regular episode. Then it's all going

01:49:49   out the window where it's like everything's about to happen. WWDC is coming fast now. Until then,

01:49:56   say goodbye, Jason Snow. >> Goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:50:01   [MUSIC]