299: My Gut Says Yes and No


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 299. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:14   Pingdom, Linode, Fully, and Ooni Pizza Ovens. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell!

00:00:20   Hello, Myke Hurley. We're at the end of the 200s now.

00:00:23   I know, can you imagine it? Who would have thought this day would have come?

00:00:26   Hmm.

00:00:27   Maybe everybody. #SnellTalkQuestion this week comes from Alex. We're a very podcast-focused episode today, lots of podcast talk,

00:00:35   so I thought I'd have a podcast-related Snell Talk. And Alex asks, "How do you feel about people referring to either an episode of a podcast or the podcast itself as a, quote, 'pod'?"

00:00:46   How do you feel about 'pod'?

00:00:49   Um, it's not a phrase I use. I don't want to be one of those people who tells people what we're talking about.

00:00:57   I don't know what words to use. I don't know. I don't want to be one of those people who's like, "No, here's another person calling a pod again."

00:01:04   You know, I don't know who that person was, but they're very angry. And also, I don't know what.

00:01:13   So, do what you like. Call it what you like. Call it whatever. It's pretty arbitrary. I think calling an episode of the podcast a podcast is also confusing, but I do that all the time, right?

00:01:25   I gotta edit the podcast. Do I mean the episode? I mean, the right way to do it is there's podcasts and there are episodes.

00:01:31   You could also say, we call this a show a lot, which is not even like podcasts.

00:01:34   I do show and episodes. That's what I go with.

00:01:37   Yeah. If you want to call it a pod, whatever, that's, you know, sometimes I say it as a joke,

00:01:43   I'll, you know, cast in the pods and all of that. It's fine. It's fine. I feel like people should say

00:01:49   what they want, but it's not a word that I'm going to use.

00:01:52   My friend and cohost, Tom Gerhard, on the Thoroughly Considered podcast calls the podcast the PCAST.

00:01:57   I don't like that at all. That's what he does. Thank you to Alex for that.

00:02:03   Whatever.

00:02:04   You can't tell him what to do, but you know.

00:02:05   I hope you enjoyed this Snell Talk seg in the middle of this pod on the pod.

00:02:12   On the waves. Thank you to Alex for sending in that question. You can send out a tweet with

00:02:17   the hashtag Snell Talk and it may be included for a future episode. We have a big media episode today.

00:02:22   There's a bunch of Apple TV Plus related news. We're going to talk about Spotify and Joe Rogan

00:02:28   and podcasting in general. And we have a mic at the movies at the end for Ferris Bueller.

00:02:33   We're rounding out the 200s in style, Jason Snell.

00:02:37   That's right. We have like a list of things we have to talk about before we get to 300,

00:02:41   I guess. And so we're going to pack it all in here.

00:02:43   I wanted to sum it up, especially because of all the Apple TV Plus news. Upstream's going to be

00:02:49   quite long today. And I think some people sometimes skip upstream, but I think they

00:02:54   shouldn't today because it's mostly Apple focused. I agree that people should never skip upstream.

00:03:00   But we give you the option.

00:03:02   Yeah. That's why we put the chapters in. It's up to you. But there's a lot of Apple TV Plus

00:03:07   news today. So that's why I thought I'd mention it.

00:03:10   For the record, episode 199, we took a deep dive into Apple's forthcoming video service

00:03:16   and we made predictions about what it will cost and how their content purchases would roll out.

00:03:22   Plus, Google gets back into podcasting. I think this is the time before the time where they most

00:03:28   recently got back into podcasting. Why does that happen every time?

00:03:31   Why does on the 99 episode, both Apple does a bunch of stuff in TV and then some company

00:03:38   gets deeper into podcasting? What happened on episode 99, Jason?

00:03:43   Let's consult the sacred scrolls of antiquity. Episode 99, I got a new mechanical keyboard.

00:03:51   Okay.

00:03:52   We talked about writing.

00:03:54   Okay.

00:03:55   And Scrivener. And oh, the iPad keyboard that doesn't turn the iPad into a laptop. Fascinating.

00:04:02   And we talked about Comic-Con apparently. So that's interesting.

00:04:06   All right.

00:04:06   So yeah. Yeah, we've evolved.

00:04:08   That one's less parallels. It is episode 300 next week. We have a very upgrade topic planned,

00:04:15   which Jason came up with. We're both very excited about that.

00:04:19   Yeah. It's one of my dumb ideas.

00:04:20   As Jason is wont to do. They're not dumb. They are exciting and weird and interesting.

00:04:25   It's a very upgrade topic. But also we wanted to do an extended Ask upgrade of next week.

00:04:30   Kind of get some meta questions. It's a hundred episodes since we've done this.

00:04:35   So let's talk about the show a little bit. So if you have any questions about upgrade itself,

00:04:39   or kind of, I guess, especially about podcasting again, if there's stuff that you want to know,

00:04:46   hear me and Jason talk about. But most of the talk about the show,

00:04:49   you have questions about that, then just send them in. You can either tweet with the hashtag

00:04:53   #askupgrade or if in the Relay FM members Discord, just use the question mark, ask upgrade in the

00:04:59   message that you send and they will all be included in a spreadsheet that we collect to choose from.

00:05:04   So, so that's that. Jason, before we leave follow up today,

00:05:07   I wanted to look at maybe some follow forward. I don't know. We're a month away from WWDC now.

00:05:13   So in like four episodes time or something will be the WWDC episode, which is both exciting and

00:05:21   interesting, but that was kind of what I wanted to bring up. I realized today it's kind of around

00:05:25   this time that I would be making lots of plans, you know, and I don't really have any to make

00:05:33   nor do I even really know how I'm going to handle the week. It's going to be very different.

00:05:37   I feel like I need to have a plan for how to handle everything that I don't currently have.

00:05:42   And I just kind of wanted to check in with you to see if you've had any thoughts like,

00:05:47   you know, we're a month away. How are you feeling about the upcoming WWDC? Do you

00:05:51   even remember it's happening? Well, I don't. That's that's the funny thing

00:05:56   is I'm not really thinking about it, partly because it is so far away now. I think what's

00:06:01   going to happen is next week I'm going to feel weird about the fact that it's not happening

00:06:06   because that's been traditionally when it's happened the last few years, it's first week

00:06:10   in June. So that's going to feel a little bit strange. The other thing going into all this is

00:06:15   that, you know, I am physically present at almost every Apple event. And this is weird because,

00:06:23   you know, I have nothing. I don't know what I'm going to do. Like it's so different and outside

00:06:29   of my realm of experience, we have to actually figure out how we're going to cover it and

00:06:33   how we want to do that because we're all just sitting in our chairs at home watching this. So

00:06:40   I'm, you know, I'm also trying to temper my enthusiasm a little bit given that we had,

00:06:48   you know, we have them working on all sorts of other things, other projects. They just released

00:06:53   the iOS version that's got the COVID-19 tracing API in it and things like that. So there's

00:06:59   a lot of other stuff going on and that makes it feel different. So I don't know. I'm not

00:07:04   super excited about it yet, but it does feel like we were turning to that time. And, you know,

00:07:13   I notice everybody's getting out in front of it with their, everybody had on their calendar for

00:07:18   late May to start doing their wishlist stories, which is funny because we've got a month to do

00:07:23   them, but people are like, "Well, nope, I'm doing it now. I'm doing it in May." So that is,

00:07:27   nothing puts you in the spirit of WWDC than everybody posting their wishlist on their blogs.

00:07:32   So, you know, I'm going to get there. - You mentioned 13.5. It's out now. Obviously,

00:07:39   the biggest thing that iOS 13.5 included was the contact tracing API that health authorities could

00:07:45   take advantage of. It's not been met with great aplomb yet. There's been 22 countries are on board,

00:07:55   only a small handful of them are actually publicly known. It has not been stated which countries in

00:08:02   the complete list are on board. I think Germany is one of them. There was a small list, I'll put

00:08:09   a link in the show notes, and I see that you've put in a note that you saw Switzerland had a

00:08:13   test go out, right? - Yeah, apparently, Switzerland is working using the API and somebody tweeted us

00:08:20   earlier today saying that it's a test, but they're actually on the case of using the Google

00:08:25   Apple API. - Right. Yeah, Germany, Switzerland, Latvia, and Estonia are currently the countries

00:08:31   that are named to have actually... This came from a report from Reuters. They're the only countries

00:08:36   that have publicly said that they're doing it. And there are four states in the US that are on board.

00:08:43   More states in America have actively stated they will not adopt it, which is 17, than they're

00:08:49   currently stating to adopt. There's still a lot up in the air about this, and I still stand kind of

00:08:55   firm in my thinking that a lot of decisions will be changed. A lot of decisions that seem to have

00:09:01   been made or have been made will be changed. A lot of countries are not ready with an application

00:09:07   like my own, super late. So that might be one reason why there hasn't been a ton of uptake yet.

00:09:13   And I also think a lot of countries are going to wait until the second movement of this, where it's

00:09:20   even more just built into the system as opposed to you needing to adopt the API into your application.

00:09:26   So we'll see. I mean, it's slow going. It's an incredibly political issue. But hopefully we'll see...

00:09:34   I think I still stand in my thinking on this, and hopefully a lot of countries will still adopt this

00:09:39   technology because it's available to them and it's probably a better option than them doing it

00:09:44   themselves. So that's that. Apple is apparently, according to a report in Bloomberg from Lucas

00:09:52   Shaw and Mark Gurman, looking to buy and have apparently already made some deals to get back

00:09:57   catalog content for Apple TV+. According to the report, Apple wants to buy up content to increase

00:10:04   the catalog of their service for probably some very obvious reasons right now that stuff is

00:10:09   not being made. And they have not only been taking pictures from studios, but according to this report,

00:10:16   have done some deals. We don't have any details about what they've bought or who they're buying

00:10:21   it from yet. But this is an interesting move. Obviously, there is a halt on TV production right

00:10:27   now, which would be a clear indicator as to why you might want to give more to your customers,

00:10:33   right? If you can't make content, get the content that exists.

00:10:37   There's the pipeline, right, where there are things that have been shot that are in post-production,

00:10:45   and we've talked about how that's slower than usual because people are at home, but there is

00:10:49   a pipeline for it. And then there's like this gap of no live action stuff being shot. And what's

00:10:58   really funny is behind that, there is writing. There is a lot of writing going on because the

00:11:03   writing has continued during this period of everybody being locked down, but the shooting

00:11:08   hasn't. And the shooting is going to come back now, but there's going to be a delay. There's going

00:11:14   to be a gap. And it's not going to be the stuff that comes out in the next four months, right?

00:11:20   Three months. It's going to be the stuff that comes out right after that, because the stuff

00:11:24   that's going to come out in the next few months was already shot. So that's what everybody,

00:11:30   I think, who's involved in scripted content is fearing, is if you don't have a lot of it,

00:11:34   especially like Apple, if you're Netflix, you could probably just rearrange the launch dates

00:11:39   a little bit and stretch things out and make everything a little bit thinner and get through

00:11:43   it. But if you're Apple, you may find yourself with some unfortunate shortfalls. And it's

00:11:49   an even more of an issue for Apple than maybe some of their competitors because later on this year,

00:11:57   they have to convince people to start paying for this. Because apparently, according to this

00:12:02   Bloomberg report, 10 million people have signed up with 5 million actively using the service.

00:12:08   And I wonder how many of those 5 million are not paying any money for it right now. I reckon pretty

00:12:14   much all of them. And if Apple don't have content and you would expect that they were hoping to say

00:12:21   in November, "Hey, season two of For All Mankind and the morning show, they're starting." But

00:12:28   that's probably not going to happen, right? I can't imagine that they have enough there or will have

00:12:32   enough there to put those shows in front of people. And even if they do, my understanding is that they

00:12:37   were in the midst of shooting For All Mankind and I think maybe Morning Show, I don't even know.

00:12:41   So even if they do, they probably are going to have to do something like do part one of season two

00:12:48   and do five episodes and then stop. And then you'll have the second half and that's not great

00:12:54   either. Because it's like, again, 10 million doesn't even seem... It doesn't seem like a

00:13:00   huge amount of people for what Apple have available to them. Especially if only 5 million... I mean,

00:13:06   I also want to actively using means like I haven't watched an Apple TV Plus show in a while, but

00:13:10   I will. I'm keeping it and I would be paying for it now because there's content that I will want.

00:13:15   There's stuff on my list. I still want to see Mythic Quest, especially because everyone's

00:13:19   been really praising the quarantine episode. I've seen unilateral praise for that. So I want to watch

00:13:24   the whole show and the quarantine Zoom episode that they did. Sorry, group FaceTime, I'm sure.

00:13:29   I can't imagine it was actually Zoom that they were using, but we'll see. But you've got to

00:13:35   assume that Apple are feeling a pressure of getting people to sign up for this service.

00:13:42   They do not want that to go away. They want to continue offering something which is of use and

00:13:48   back catalogue content seems like a good option. They didn't do it before, I think for reasons

00:13:54   just like, no, we want to just be HBO. We build prestige television of our own, right? But they

00:14:00   didn't want to do the back catalogue stuff. But now, what's available now? This is the question,

00:14:07   right? If they would have started out, maybe they could have got some interesting stuff, right?

00:14:11   Maybe they could have put in the bid for Seinfeld or whatever, right? But I feel like at this point,

00:14:16   most of the bingeable popular shows, they're tied up somewhere. Look, there's a bigger issue here.

00:14:23   I talked about this a little bit on TV Talk Machine last week. It's actually the last episode

00:14:28   of the current iteration of TV Talk Machine because Tim Goodman, who is my co-host for that,

00:14:32   is a TV critic and he retired from being a TV critic and he's doing something else now and

00:14:36   doesn't want to talk about TV, which I totally understand, but it makes it hard to do a TV

00:14:41   podcast when he doesn't want to talk about TV. It's hard.

00:14:43   Yeah, it's like if you were like, you know what, forget it. I'm moving to Microsoft.

00:14:46   You'd be like, well, that's going to be a problem.

00:14:47   No more computer talk. Let's not talk about computers or technology anymore.

00:14:50   Abacus is in notebooks only.

00:14:52   Yeah. So, well, I mean, the notebook addict, it's right there. Anyway.

00:14:56   I could do it with you. Anytime.

00:14:57   The point I made in that, and it was, I feel like Apple needs to decide,

00:15:08   really decide if it's in or if it's out and it has, it has played it. I know they're spending

00:15:12   billions of dollars on content and they did this big launch, but Apple, I think is still hedging

00:15:18   on whether it really wants to do this or not. If it really wants to be a content provider,

00:15:24   or if it just wants to be an ecosystem and a kind of channel provider for other people's content.

00:15:30   I don't know if Apple, Apple has been splitting the difference on that. And I think the challenge

00:15:35   is they may need to decide what they want to be. I mean, they are an ecosystem and a channel provider

00:15:39   because of who they are, but do they also want to be this other thing? And Amazon has taken that

00:15:45   path. Although Amazon product is different, but it's similar in that it's not a pure product.

00:15:49   That's just like Netflix, right? Amazon is prime and it's a whole bunch of different stuff.

00:15:53   And they've got a catalog and they've got originals. Apple, it similarly has an ecosystem

00:15:59   and the TV app works, whether you have Apple TV plus or not. And they're, they've given them

00:16:03   the gifts of Apple TV to a bunch of people who buy their products and who knows, maybe that will

00:16:08   continue, especially given the pandemic. Who knows? Oh, that's an interesting point, right?

00:16:12   That's like, oh, we're not going to make the money. What we could do is give them another year.

00:16:17   Give them another gift. Yeah. That's a really good point, Jason. I haven't thought of that.

00:16:20   For six months or a year or whatever. Because then the money won't go down on the earnings reports

00:16:26   because they'll continue doing the accounting for it. Exactly. And they can say something about how

00:16:30   with the, with production issues and the pandemic, they'll extend it, but it doesn't change this,

00:16:34   this basic point, which is they wouldn't say that they would say something like,

00:16:38   we want to continue giving everybody good content at home, right? They'll spin it that way. Yeah.

00:16:42   We want to give them gifts and thank them because it's very important. But the truth is that it's

00:16:46   the pandemic and that, so here's the thing. Apple could have bought the catalog stuff. They didn't,

00:16:52   they're like, well, we don't really want to do that. You know, and their approach to content

00:16:56   has been more like HBO. We want to be HBO. It's just a few things, but they're curated and they're

00:17:00   very nice. But HBO had a catalog. HBO had a huge catalog of movies and had built a big back catalog

00:17:06   of originals and Apple has none of that. And they, they, so they deferred, they deferred. Now they're

00:17:10   apparently doing this according to this report to buy original or to buy a catalog content. It's

00:17:16   going to be weird. Like, what does it mean? What are they? And then the big problem I see is the

00:17:21   TV app. And everybody's got their favorite thing that they hate about the TV app. I'm not talking

00:17:26   about that. I'm talking about how when you use the TV app, I know that Apple gives itself some extra

00:17:31   promotional space, but the bottom line is when you go to the TV app, the Apple TV plus service is like

00:17:38   a peer to every other streaming service. And, and to get to Apple TV plus content, you can, like,

00:17:47   I use my Apple TV and I've got a Netflix app and a Hulu app and an Amazon app. And I know that you

00:17:53   can get some of that stuff through the TV app, but a lot of it, you can't Netflix like is not,

00:17:59   doesn't play ball with that. So I use the apps. I actually am one of those people where the future

00:18:03   of TV, it turned out it was apps sort of. But, but there's no Apple TV plus app, which means that the

00:18:10   one service that requires me to open an app and then go find it is Apple TV plus it's the platform

00:18:17   owner and it's, and, and on one level, I want to applaud Apple for saying, you know, we are a

00:18:23   conduit to all services and we're not going to overly favor our service. And yet on another level,

00:18:29   it's like, guys, if you're serious about this, there should be an Apple TV plus app at the top

00:18:33   of the screen, not an Apple TV app, TV plus service app that takes you directly to a place that is

00:18:40   completely devoted to that. And the top level of the TV app isn't. And it's, and I think it's all

00:18:46   of a piece, which is they can't decide, are they the ecosystem? Is this just a little fun add on?

00:18:51   And they're not really trying to compete in which case they're spending billions of dollars on a

00:18:55   little kind of fun add on, or are they really trying to massively grow the subscriber base,

00:19:01   the paying subscriber base of Apple TV plus. And I don't think this is an interesting indicator.

00:19:07   The idea that they might be buying other people's reruns, other people's old movies,

00:19:12   but it will, I think the sign that this actually happens is a purchase. I think we'll know if Apple

00:19:19   is really in on this, if they buy something and they don't, it doesn't necessarily mean that they

00:19:24   need to buy CBS Viacom, although they could, or Sony entertainment, if it's for sale or

00:19:31   something else, a movie studio or something like that, a small movie studio. But I think that,

00:19:36   and it doesn't mean that if they don't do that, they're not, they're not in on this,

00:19:40   but I think that that would be the clearest sign that they're in on it is a realization that they

00:19:44   need to step up their library and their original game a lot. And maybe it's not the right decision.

00:19:50   Maybe the right decision for Apple is to back off or just have, maybe they want the middle ground,

00:19:57   maybe they want to be present, but not really compete with the others. I don't know. I bet you

00:20:05   that the people they hired to work on Apple TV plus all over the world, not just in LA,

00:20:10   but all over the world did not get hired to be a, you know, a loss leader, adjunct to a TV app

00:20:19   streaming strategy. I'm not sure the billions of dollars that they're spending on content

00:20:24   and the deals they're making with stars, uh, are, can withstand that in the long run.

00:20:31   So it's a weird for me, I still am in this place where I think Apple strategy here is very strange.

00:20:36   We're like, if you're going to spend the money, it's almost like if you're going to spend the

00:20:39   money, you got to spend lots more money. Otherwise, why are you spending the money at all?

00:20:42   - They have been spending lots and lots of more money though, right? Like, I think that

00:20:47   this segment has proved that they keep doing more, more, more signing, more people,

00:20:53   more content deals, more deals. - But they're, but they're up against Netflix,

00:20:58   HBO now, Peacock is coming, uh, Amazon prime. Like you can tick off all of the media giants

00:21:05   that are also doing this. And I don't, even though I know Apple is spending billions of

00:21:10   dollars in making deals, but are they really competing? You look at the numbers that have

00:21:17   been reported for Apple TV plus, like they're giving it away and they don't, they, they don't

00:21:23   have that many people signed up. - I think they have not yet had the show.

00:21:30   - The breakout show. - They haven't had it. And I still believe

00:21:34   it's possible for them to do it because they're spending the money, right? Like, again, I agree,

00:21:39   it's not as much as, but they're not spending nothing. And I think for them, what it looks like

00:21:45   they've been doing over the last six to eight months is getting first look deals in with

00:21:51   everybody, right? So there is the possibility that they are getting ready to spend a ton of money,

00:21:58   but they're waiting for the scripts, but they're trying to lock people down. I don't know.

00:22:02   But I think that right now their plan has completely fallen over.

00:22:09   - Well, it's, yes. If you're in this super, you know, low volume, but high quality,

00:22:16   and it's a nice add on and we're going to build and we're going to build a catalog.

00:22:20   And then you have a content shortfall like this. It does make things harder.

00:22:23   There's no doubt about it because you don't, they don't have the bench that Netflix has.

00:22:28   Where like, you know, Netflix has, how many originals does Netflix release in an average

00:22:32   week? It's a ridiculous number. It's very easy for Netflix to look at what it's planning. And

00:22:37   they've said, like, it's not going to be a problem for us. And, you know, it really isn't because

00:22:40   it's like an accordion or something. You can just take the summer and just go, and now it goes to

00:22:44   the end of the year, right? They can just do that. Apple can't do that, right? Apple is going to hit

00:22:52   a gap here and it's going to be, as you pointed out, exactly the wrong time.

00:22:57   - Yeah. I'd be fascinated to see what they've bought. Like, I'm really intrigued to see if

00:23:06   they've done these deals that Bloomberg is reporting that they've done, what is it?

00:23:11   I'm really keen to see, like, what have they bought that they think is worthwhile?

00:23:17   Like, is it TV? Is it movies? Where's it coming from?

00:23:20   - Yeah, my guess, my guess is movies. - Probably easier to get movies than TV, right?

00:23:24   - And it gives you that HBO vibe. I do believe that the old HBO, which is going away now sort

00:23:30   of with the HBO Max thing, that the old HBO approach is kind of Apple's guiding star. That

00:23:35   they want to be high quality, lower volume, but talked about and prestigious. And HBO also had a

00:23:42   movie library. So it's like you throw that in and there are a bunch of movies that you can get.

00:23:45   And you can imagine them integrating that into their apps and stuff, where if you go to a movie

00:23:50   or search for a movie or even featured in their movies interface when you're looking to rent a

00:23:54   movie and they've got the ones that are just free, like what Amazon does with Prime, where there are

00:23:59   movies you can rent and buy, and there are also movies that are just free and you can browse those.

00:24:04   So that would be my guess. My other theory that I had back when we were 100 episodes ago,

00:24:09   when we were debating this is they could do a thing where it's like things that are thematically

00:24:13   linked to their originals. So can you get, I don't know, West Wing and pair it with The Morning Show

00:24:20   or get That'll Start Galactica and pair it with For All Mankind, because they're kind of

00:24:27   thematically similar or they share some connective tissue of some sort. But my guess is that it's

00:24:34   movies. Although, again, I will say I think that they should just seriously consider buying

00:24:39   something that I know it would be very dramatic. Like CBS, like CBS Viacom, yeah. Or Viacom CBS,

00:24:47   I guess is what they are. Because then they get Comedy Central and they get MTV and they get

00:24:51   CBS and they get all the Star Trek stuff and they get The Good Wife and The Good Fight and all that.

00:24:57   They get all your NCISs and CSIs. I like the good extended universe, right?

00:25:03   They get the one that they get.

00:25:04   MATT: Yep. You get live football. You get, I mean, you also get TV stations that they don't want.

00:25:09   But times are weird, right? Maybe you just, I mean, actually there's a precedence with Fox,

00:25:15   right? Which is...

00:25:16   PETER LUBBERS They just buy what they want and spin off the rest.

00:25:18   MATT FESTA They could also buy all the pieces and leave the broadcast stations just sitting out

00:25:24   there and the news division and they just sit out there and they're part of some other company that

00:25:29   is not owned by Apple. I think they could do that. I don't think they will, but I think they could.

00:25:33   And it just feels to me like if they really want to go all in on this, that's what they need to do.

00:25:37   And they don't seem to want to go all in on this. I'm not saying that they need to.

00:25:42   I'm saying that they could and they seem to have chosen not to.

00:25:45   PETER LUBBERS Viacom, don't they have a bunch of music too? Or are they just TV?

00:25:51   MATT FESTA I don't know. I don't know. That's a weird business. That whole story about them

00:25:55   getting segmented off of CBS and then put back in... who knows?

00:26:00   PETER LUBBERS Yeah. Super weird. But that, I mean,

00:26:02   you've mentioned ViacomCBS on this show a bunch of times as like, that's probably the one, right?

00:26:09   MATT FESTA Well, it's the biggest one that's kind of freestanding and is not owned. And none of the

00:26:14   other big players can buy it because of, you know, of regulations. There's no way they would be

00:26:18   allowed to buy it. PETER LUBBERS Right. Comcast, AT&T, they can't come in and be like, "We'll have

00:26:23   that one too." Or Disney. MATT FESTA Disney. Right. Yeah, they can't.

00:26:26   PETER LUBBERS Apple did buy something. It's a movie by Tom Hanks. It's called Greyhound. It's

00:26:30   a World War II battleship drama written by and starring Tom Hanks.

00:26:34   MATT FESTA Fill in the pipe. Fill in the pipe. Yeah.

00:26:35   PETER LUBBERS It was supposed to be released on Father's Day in the theaters. And it was decided

00:26:41   that it wouldn't be. And then it got shopped around. And Apple put up the $70 million needed

00:26:49   to get 15 years' worth of rights. This was from Sony. And it now is the first Tom Hanks movie to

00:26:55   debut on streaming. MATT FESTA Yeah. It's -- think about it this way. $70 million reportedly for this.

00:27:00   That's basically Apple saying, "Well, do you think you're going to get $70 million at the

00:27:05   box office for this movie in a normal world? And what do you think you're going to get now?"

00:27:08   Which is nothing. And Sony wants to sell it because Sony doesn't have room in its schedule

00:27:14   for it. And they go to Tom Hanks and Tom Hanks is like, "All right, we'll do it." And it's a

00:27:17   funny world because this is probably more money for everybody involved in this movie than they

00:27:23   would have gotten in the normal world, I think, if it got released. But fewer people will see it,

00:27:30   which is interesting. Also, it's Oscar eligible because it had a scheduled release date, but it

00:27:38   didn't get released. So it's Oscar-bait. And you know what? Tom Hanks World War II movie? I didn't

00:27:46   even know this movie existed. And I will watch this movie. I think that sounds great. I love

00:27:51   Tom Hanks. And he has made some very -- I mean, he wrote this. He cares very much about certain

00:27:56   subjects and pours his heart into them. You saw it with From the Earth to the Moon and with the

00:28:02   Steven Spielberg World War II series, what, the Pacific, he produced that. And Band of Brothers,

00:28:09   which was right on the heels of Safe and Private Ryan. I mean, there's -- you know, this is a

00:28:13   passion project for him that also I think is right in his wheelhouse. So I'm looking forward to

00:28:17   seeing it. And I guess I'll watch it on Apple TV+, which is -- that's good. There's a lot of this

00:28:23   going on right now. I think the question is, is this the new world or is this just contingency

00:28:26   planning because of the old world ending? And we don't know yet because we don't really know what

00:28:31   theatrical is going to look like in the future. Is there stuff like this that's not tied to a

00:28:36   franchise and isn't an enormous budget movie, was already kind of on its last legs in movie theaters?

00:28:41   And, you know, even when movie theaters come back, this stuff may not do that, especially when you've

00:28:46   got streamers who are really hungry for content. And the people who are more likely to watch

00:28:50   streaming are probably demographically a better match for these kind of movies because they're

00:28:56   a little bit older and they're not going to movie theaters as much. So that's, for me, is the big

00:29:02   question is, I'm not sure whether this is the new way things are going to be or if it's just a weird

00:29:09   bump because of the situation we're in right now. My gut says yes and no to that. Yeah, I was going

00:29:16   to say a little -- my gut says a little bit of both, right? Like, this isn't exactly how it will

00:29:20   be, but it'll be more like this than it was before. Also as well, like, I don't mean this to be weird,

00:29:25   but like, Tom Hanks is a good person to have right now because the whole world loves him even more.

00:29:29   Exactly. Also, he already had the coronavirus, so he's invulnerable. He can shoot any movie now,

00:29:36   right now, anywhere. But like, genuinely, like, he's in the zeitgeist again even more than before

00:29:43   because he is very newsworthy at the moment and I think everyone has remembered how much they love

00:29:48   Tom Hanks, except for Max Temkin. He doesn't like Tom Hanks, I found out a few weeks ago, but

00:29:52   yeah, everybody else is a monster. That's fine. Everybody else loves Tom Hanks. So like, it's,

00:29:57   you know, but I actually, I can't wait to see this movie because Tom Hanks is one of my favorite

00:30:01   actors. Like, I think he's amazing. I love him and everything. So I will watch this. I would not have

00:30:05   gone to the cinema to see this movie though. So this might be a bit of a trolls thing for them,

00:30:11   right? Where it's like, oh, lots of people have seen this movie because it's available to them.

00:30:16   I wonder how Apple's going to market this, if at all. That's what I'm interested about. Like,

00:30:22   am I going to get an email from Apple telling me to activate my TV+ description to watch Greyhound,

00:30:27   right? Like, maybe. Apple also have not yet announced a release date for this movie.

00:30:35   But you would expect, I mean, let's be real, Father's Day was a very good weekend for that

00:30:39   movie to open. And maybe they just go for that, right? Like, that's my guess is that it will be

00:30:46   a Father's Day release. They'll just literally release it at the same time. But they already

00:30:52   have that Father's Day thing. Movie documentary about dads, which, oh, who is it? Do you remember

00:30:59   that? It was, yeah. Oh, here it is. I found it. Dads, June 19th. It's Bryce Dallas Howard.

00:31:06   Yeah, that's it. That's Ron Howard is who you were thinking of. Who worked with Tom Hanks

00:31:11   on Apollo 13. See, it's all connected. And yes, dads, June 21st. You know, that Central Park

00:31:19   series is coming this week. The Bob's Burgers. It's this week. Yeah, we're going to have to do

00:31:24   an Apple TV content update pretty soon because they are rolling out a bunch of new stuff.

00:31:28   Oh, they also, this is really weird. This one's weird. Apple TV Plus is in early development of a

00:31:34   series about Gawker, Gawker Media. X staffers Max Reed and Cord Jefferson. By the way,

00:31:41   Cord Jefferson is an amazing name. But anyway, I noticed that.

00:31:45   He worked on The Good Place. Oh, did they? Fantastic.

00:31:49   It was Good Place and Watchmen, I think. Yes. Cord Jefferson worked on both of those.

00:31:57   Well, Cord. He's yes, thumbs up to Cord.

00:32:01   Their developing scripts about the controversial media company are going to give a quote from Joe

00:32:06   Pompeo at Vanity Fair. Jefferson and Reed declined to comment so details are scant, but the series

00:32:10   has described to me as a dramedy about Gawker's ascent and its impact on the media landscape

00:32:15   as it transformed from an insider gossip blog into a major force in the type of journalism

00:32:21   that skews celebrities in the powerful. Interesting. I wonder if they'll do an iPhone 4

00:32:26   episode. Ha!

00:32:28   Like seriously. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine Apple paying money to produce an episode

00:32:35   that talks about finding an iPhone 4 in a bar? And Steve Jobs secret police call, right? Like,

00:32:42   I would love that. They won't do it. I'd love it. This felt to me like Apple trying to find

00:32:50   that typical Netflix-like show. They're also doing a show about WeWork, right? They bought

00:32:57   a podcast. I think they want some of that based on real events style. That type of like very

00:33:05   meme-y content gets people talking. They also just signed a deal this week with the creators

00:33:09   of the, I think this was the HBO docuseries McMillions, which is about McDonald's, for a

00:33:14   four-part docuseries. Their only details are that the series is about a "unbelievable true

00:33:20   story of one of the largest scams in government history." So it seems like they're going for

00:33:26   some content which they don't currently have, but will. And it's a lot of this like scandalous

00:33:33   real world stuff that we're making into a drama. Which I don't know what that makes me think of,

00:33:39   but it reminds me of a lot of stuff that I see on Netflix.

00:33:42   And there's a, you know, you can't make one kind of show and everybody has learned this,

00:33:48   right? Like you can't just make a prestige drama. You also need to make comedies and you need to

00:33:51   make docuseries and you need to make things that appeal to different demographic groups. And all of

00:33:55   those things are going on because like Tiger King and The Last Dance now, these are long-form

00:34:02   documentaries that are buzzworthy during everybody being locked down. And I've said this before,

00:34:08   but like you imagine saying in the future, everybody will be talking about 10 hour long

00:34:14   documentaries that they watch at home. And you're like, that's never going to happen.

00:34:18   Nobody can sit still for like a 90 minute documentary, let alone 10 hours. And they're

00:34:22   going to sit at home when they have all sorts of other choices. And they're just going to watch

00:34:26   a 10 hour documentary. I don't care whether that's about some guy who maybe murdered tigers or some

00:34:35   other guy who, you know, who won a bunch of championships in Chicago. Whatever, nobody's

00:34:42   going to do that. And the fact is they are. So you got to cover all the bases. You got to have your

00:34:46   snarky based on true story series and you got to have your prestige drama and you got to have your

00:34:52   docuseries and you got to have your kids stuff. And like, and that is a game that Apple is playing

00:34:57   and the animated, right? Apple is playing that game. So that's something.

00:35:01   >> HBO Max launches this week in the US, which I'm jealous about. I would like that content.

00:35:08   But something that I thought would be interesting, which I just wanted to note is that they announced

00:35:12   that they're going to be releasing the Snyder cut of Justice League. In case you don't know what

00:35:17   this means. So Zack Snyder had to depart the movie production of Justice League because of a family

00:35:25   tragedy. So Joss Whedon stepped in to finish it. The movie came out. It wasn't good. And everybody

00:35:31   blamed Joss Whedon. An online campaign began to #releasethesnidercut. Some positive, mostly toxic

00:35:40   as these things tend to go. So HBO Max are allowing and are giving everything back to

00:35:48   Zack Snyder to recut the movie, edit the movie. >> I just want to be clear here. One of the

00:35:54   reasons that a lot of us rolled our eyes at the release of the Snyder cut people is because there

00:35:58   was this conspiracy theory that there was this amazing Zack Snyder version of Justice League,

00:36:03   and it was the movie that the studio didn't want you to see. And the truth is, he left in the

00:36:09   middle of production. They were going to do reshoots, but there was also the original stuff.

00:36:13   He did do an early cut that was like four hours long, but then he cut. They wanted a shorter movie.

00:36:18   But like, it wasn't like the real movie was sitting in a vault and then they conspired to

00:36:23   take the movie away from him and bring in Joss Whedon. It was much more like they were working

00:36:27   on the typical back and forth, and then Zack Snyder and his wife lost a child, and they had to

00:36:37   go do that, deal with their personal tragedy. They brought in Joss Whedon, who did The Avengers, to

00:36:43   finish the movie. And people didn't like it, so they're like, "Boy, I hear that Zack Snyder

00:36:49   had this original thing. That might be something." But what they're going to need to do is spend 20

00:36:54   or 30 million dollars making it happen. So there's nothing releasing the Snyder cut is essentially

00:37:00   finishing the Snyder cut. But Warner Brothers and HBO Max, they're desperate for more HBO Max

00:37:10   content. So we live in a world where we've got something that's already mostly made,

00:37:14   mostly shot anyway, that they can throw some money to out of their HBO Max development budget.

00:37:20   They get some good publicity for it. They've got this grassroots group of people who are convinced

00:37:26   that this is going to be great, and they've got a tent pole kind of thing that they can launch when

00:37:32   it comes out. And in fact, they're already talking about how they're maybe not going to release this

00:37:35   as a movie, but as a mini-series. So you can imagine the marketing wheels are already turning.

00:37:41   So it's an interesting story. I think it's a one-of-a-kind series of events that led to it

00:37:46   happening. But it is, I think, a very canny case of Warner Brothers and HBO Max saying,

00:37:53   "We could get a lot out of giving 20 or 30 million to Zack Snyder to finish this

00:37:59   and release it as an HBO Max exclusive." So they're going to do it.

00:38:03   - I'm not sure about the precedent that this could set. I don't know how I feel about it.

00:38:09   - Oh, man. - You can take two views on it. One is

00:38:13   big company listening to its fans. The other is you make enough noise and you get what you want.

00:38:19   - Yeah, this is the... So my favorite TV show of all time from when I was a kid was the original

00:38:25   Star Trek. And of course, it got saved twice by letter writing campaigns and Save Our Show

00:38:30   campaigns. It was the original Save Our Show campaign. And I'm very glad that Star Trek exists.

00:38:35   That said, every show that ever gets canceled has a Save Our Show campaign now.

00:38:43   - Mm-hmm. - And, you know,

00:38:45   occasionally they succeed and that's great. But now we have to deal with all of them.

00:38:50   - Yes. - And that's annoying. And so, yes,

00:38:52   there's going to be... Every time a director leaves a movie, I can't wait for all the Josh

00:38:56   Trank fans out there to say, "Fantastic Four, release the Trank cut." Right? They're probably

00:39:02   already out there, aren't they? Right? Because he had to change that movie and they brought in

00:39:06   somebody like... That's going to just happen again and again. Why don't we do a Dumbledore

00:39:09   truthers thing where everybody starts with like a hashtag that they want to CGI a version...

00:39:17   They get Michael Gambon back and have him replace the original Dumbledore in the early movies so

00:39:23   that there's continuity. Why don't we do that? Like start that as a thing. It's just going to...

00:39:27   It goes on and on and on. So, you know, that part makes me kind of roll my eyes. But I think as a

00:39:32   business thing, it's a fascinating development. And my guess is that the reality of it won't be

00:39:39   as good as the dream because that's how life works. But more power to them. We'll see how it

00:39:45   is. We'll see unfettered Zack Snyder at last. - And do you want to just rejoice about the Hulu

00:39:51   app? My understanding is that everybody loves that the Hulu app is fixed.

00:39:55   - Yeah. The Hulu app was really bad. The Hulu app got updated last week. The Hulu app is way

00:39:59   better now. And I am actually watching more Hulu than almost any other streaming service. Maybe the

00:40:04   most of any streaming service in this current pandemic. The FX stuff... So Disney owning Hulu

00:40:10   now and pouring all of the stuff from FX networks onto it. And that stuff is really good creatively.

00:40:16   And that stuff's all poured in there. Plus Hulu originals, plus their catalog. It's pretty good.

00:40:23   It's a pretty good service. I really am spending a lot of time in Hulu. But their interface was

00:40:27   terrible. And now it's better. So hooray for that. It's not even that I would say it's good. I would

00:40:34   just say it's like every other TV app interface now. And that's good enough. Because it was way

00:40:39   below that before. - Now all we need to do is get Now TV updated. And then I can be happy. Because

00:40:43   that is the real true terrible, terrible interface. - Hulu's old interface had two side scrolling

00:40:50   tabs on top of each other. And the one that was selected, by the way, that you could see,

00:40:55   it was because there was a line above the text. It was like an over line. And you didn't really

00:41:00   know which was selected. And how do I get all the way up to the top bar? Or am I just in the middle

00:41:05   bar? It was, it was really bad, but it's gone now. So there's only one, there's only one navigation

00:41:11   bar in Hulu now. - Hooray! - Woo hoo! Yeah. - Today's episode is brought to you by Ooni Pizza Ovens.

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00:42:44   Oh Myke, you know, when we got Ooni as a sponsor, I kept bugging you. I was like,

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00:42:58   I like pizza and I like making pizza. I've been making pizza for like 25 years now, my own pizza.

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00:45:11   Joe Rogan is being hired by Spotify to make his show exclusive to their platform. You may have

00:45:20   heard about this in some of your favorite shows the last week or so. And it was obvious that we

00:45:25   were going to talk about this topic here today because it fits so nicely in the Venn diagram

00:45:30   and stuff that we talk about on Upgrade. Both the audio and video versions of this show are joining

00:45:35   Spotify and by the end of 2020 Spotify will be the only place that you can get the Joe Rogan

00:45:42   experience. That's not a pun. That's the name of the show. We don't know the price of this deal yet.

00:45:48   We may find out later. It's estimated to be north of $100 million, but there could be bonuses,

00:45:54   goals and all that kind of stuff for a multi-year exclusivity deal. This is not an acquisition like

00:46:01   Spotify have done with the Ringer and Gimlet. They signed Rogan up to a deal. In fact, effectively,

00:46:09   Rogan works for Spotify now for as long as this deal lasts, but he still owns the show. So if at

00:46:17   the end of the deal he wants to leave, go somewhere else, he can. So that's there's some slight

00:46:23   differences to say like the Gimlet deal, which we may be more familiar with on this show where they

00:46:28   acquired the company and all of the assets. So if everybody leaves Gimlet, Spotify still own all

00:46:34   that. It's not the case with Joe Rogan. For a little bit of context, in case you don't know,

00:46:39   the Joe Rogan experience is easily the biggest podcast in the world right now. Apparently

00:46:45   approximately 200 million downloads a month, which seems completely accurate, but also millions of

00:46:50   views on YouTube as well. So it's video and audio. So you can see it battling out against this

00:46:57   American Life and Serial and shows like that, but they don't also have this massive YouTube presence.

00:47:03   So huge deal here, right? What is your take kind of top level, Jason? What did you originally feel

00:47:11   when you saw this news? Well, I mean, it's huge and it's bad for open podcasting. That was my

00:47:17   immediate take. A lot of people brush off Joe Rogan. If you're not in the Joe Rogan sphere

00:47:22   of influence, you're like, who is this guy? But seriously, it's either the biggest or second

00:47:29   biggest podcast in the world, right? Like it's depending on who's measuring and all that, but

00:47:34   it's huge. And what this deal really is, it's not about even being behind a paywall since it's going

00:47:42   to be free on Spotify. What it really is, is about forcing people to use Spotify to hear his show.

00:47:48   And it's going to get Spotify a bunch of new users because it's the only way they're going to be able

00:47:54   to hear the show. And then they're in Spotify's ecosystem. So at that point, it's more convenient

00:48:00   to have all your podcasts in one place. So maybe they listen, they add all their other podcasts in

00:48:04   Spotify, and now they're in the Spotify ecosystem. They're not in the open web ecosystem. If you want

00:48:09   to use, or the open podcast ecosystem, if you want to use Overcast or PocketCasts or Castro or

00:48:15   anything like that- - Or Apple Podcasts.

00:48:17   - Or Apple Podcasts. - Or any of those.

00:48:19   - You can't. Or YouTube, which they posted Joe Rogan's show on YouTube too, right? Like,

00:48:25   that's all gone. It's just going to be next year on Spotify's platforms. And that is,

00:48:31   the way I've been likening it is like, imagine if there was a website you really liked

00:48:38   and they said, "Now it's only available in our app." It's kind of like that, where we're taking

00:48:46   our ball and going home. If you want to read it in a web browser, you can't. We're not going to

00:48:50   let you do that. And while you can read it in an app, and a lot of people do that, you can also

00:48:56   read it on the website. And Spotify is like, "Nuh-uh, you have to be in our app in order to

00:49:01   get it." And it's quite a power move. They're spending a lot of money. I read somewhere,

00:49:05   like, how much money this would be an equivalent of how they pay musical artists for their

00:49:10   subscription service. And it's a lot. Music artists are really angry because Spotify doesn't

00:49:16   want to pay them very much, but they're happy to pay Joe Rogan. The difference is that this is an

00:49:20   ad play, right? This is an ecosystem play, people using our app. And it's free, so they're going to

00:49:27   try to create a sales infrastructure where they're inserting ads in this stuff. And presumably,

00:49:34   the deal is something like, they're getting the exclusive, and then they are going to try to make

00:49:39   up some of that money by selling ads into it. But like, it's a, so it's a, you know, I think it's

00:49:44   a huge deal. Well, I've seen reports that like, Joe Rogan is able to continue selling his own ads

00:49:49   in the show and will continue to get their money. Interesting. I haven't seen that confirmed, but...

00:49:53   And again, the amount that they're spending, it's all part of the negotiation, right? Does he get to

00:49:57   keep all the ad revenue or some of the ad revenue? If they take the ad revenue, then it's more like

00:50:01   a guarantee, which a lot of podcast ad networks do, where they'll say, "I'm going to write you

00:50:06   a check for this much money, and then it's up to us to sell the ads, but you just get the money and

00:50:12   don't have to worry about our ad sales." But, you know, if they walked away with all his ad revenue,

00:50:18   they'd probably have had to pay him more, right? So they paid him less for the license, but he gets

00:50:23   to keep ad revenue. The difference is he will lose some listeners, right? Because some people will

00:50:28   just not follow him. Although I think most people will. I think he's going to lose more viewers than

00:50:34   listeners. I think there will be a much bigger hit to the YouTube audience side, the video side,

00:50:39   than the audio. The power of YouTube. Absolutely, absolutely the case. I've never watched Joe Rogan,

00:50:46   really, like I've seen clips, but I was recommended a Joe Rogan video on YouTube two days ago, and I

00:50:52   watched it. It was like a 15-minute clip of Robert Downey Jr. and I was like, "Oh, I want to..." I

00:50:57   can't remember what it was like about some roles that he's taken and whether he regrets them or

00:51:03   not. And I was like, "Oh, I like Robert Downey Jr. I'll watch this." But that kind of shows,

00:51:06   and that video had 17 million views on it. It was a 15-minute clip. Because this is the other thing,

00:51:12   they do lots of clips, so they don't just have the full version. They have another channel with

00:51:16   clips, and those clips get massive amounts of views because they're like a 10-minute thing.

00:51:20   It's more YouTubey, right? All of that's gone. That, I honestly believe, is going to be the bigger

00:51:27   hit. Because the YouTube numbers are always going to be bigger than the podcast numbers because

00:51:31   YouTube is just so much bigger. And there's a lot of people that think, "Oh, Rogan's had problems

00:51:39   with YouTube monetization." Right? "Oh, YouTube's been demonetizing him and it's one of the reasons

00:51:45   he wanted to leave." A few things on this. One, that YouTube money is nothing compared to what

00:51:50   he's getting from the ads, which he's including the YouTube numbers in when he's selling them.

00:51:54   Right? So when he's going out, or when his people are going out to an advertiser,

00:51:59   they're not just saying, "Oh, we're only going to sell you the five million podcast listeners

00:52:06   we have." No, they're also saying, "And there's another seven million people here on YouTube that

00:52:11   will see this," or whatever. Right? They're selling the whole thing together. So the ads that are in

00:52:15   the shows, it's all getting bumped up by YouTube. Right? So yes, he may be losing YouTube ad revenue

00:52:22   from demonetization, but it's not that much of a problem because the rising tide lifts all ships,

00:52:29   right? Because he has that access to a large audience. But some people think that, "Oh,

00:52:35   he's making the jump because he gets in trouble with YouTube and they demonetize him." Because the

00:52:40   thing about Rogan is he will interview anyone. It's one of the things people like about his show is he

00:52:45   could be quite controversial and he'll interview Bernie Sanders, but also Ben Shapiro. Right? He'll

00:52:52   do everyone. Right? He'll interview anyone. But I don't see how he is not in a worse position when

00:52:59   it comes to this now because he didn't work for YouTube. He didn't work for Google. They don't

00:53:05   care. They'll just take his money away if they don't like the content. He is now an employee of

00:53:09   Spotify. Anything he does reflect... I've seen people say that he is, but irrespective.

00:53:15   I don't believe it. I believe he's like a studio that has an exclusive license

00:53:20   agreement with Spotify. Everything he does now will affect...

00:53:24   This is going to be important when the apologies happen later.

00:53:26   Like he has much more of a reflection on Spotify and him are much more tied together than him and

00:53:34   Google are. Right? Because if he does something that is incredibly controversial, he is monetarily

00:53:41   linked to Spotify. Like if there are any PR crises, it affects them. Right? Much more than it ever

00:53:49   would have affected Google because Google were like, "We have nothing to do with it." But you've

00:53:54   got to assume that he has a contract with Spotify that lists this kind of stuff in it about, you

00:54:02   know, these kinds of issues if he is being too controversial. It's like I just... My point here

00:54:07   is, irrespective of the details, the idea about him doing this so he finally gets out from under

00:54:12   the thumb of YouTube, that's insane. That's really just a wrong argument. Like I can't see that.

00:54:19   Right? Are you following me? Yeah. Like this is not a play of like, "Oh, I need my independence."

00:54:24   No, it's not that. He's less independent now because he works for Spotify in some instances.

00:54:30   Anyway, that's just a point that I wanted to make. Do you think that his listeners will follow him

00:54:35   along? Like, do you think that this is going to be worth it for Spotify? Like ultimately?

00:54:39   - Yeah. In the short term, I do. I think it's a multi-stage thing, right? Like they're going

00:54:49   to get an influx of users who've never tried Spotify for podcasts before. That's step one.

00:54:59   It's not without risk, right? Like if Joe Rogan does stuff that's really controversial,

00:55:04   Spotify is going to have to kind of like live it down and deal with it. And there's a non-zero

00:55:10   chance that they are going to have to terminate this agreement, right? Like a non-zero chance

00:55:15   that it becomes such a black eye that they have to walk away. I'm not saying that will happen,

00:55:19   but it could happen. - Because especially if they start doing a big ad thing and those ads are being

00:55:24   sold on Joe Rogan and he does something that people turn against him for and start campaigning to the

00:55:30   advertisers to come off Joe Rogan, right? Like these are the flows you end up going through.

00:55:34   But yes, sorry to interrupt you. - No. The play for Spotify, right? They want users

00:55:41   and there's the ad play, right? They want to build an ad network. This is the one that I've seen a

00:55:46   lot of people talk about. They want to be YouTube, right? They want to be YouTube. And what that

00:55:49   means is they want a platform that they control that a lot of people use.

00:55:54   That they can sell ads into programmatically. And what you'll get is worse ads for less money,

00:56:00   but you make it up in volume. Great for Spotify, bad for podcasters, most podcasters, unless you've

00:56:06   got huge volume. And if they can convince advertisers that Spotify is the place to buy

00:56:12   advertising, if you're not in Spotify using their ad system, you're basically out of luck and that

00:56:18   will potentially harm, I'm not gonna say kill, but that will harm the outside of Spotify podcast

00:56:24   ecosystem. And you could even end up in a scenario where everybody has to use Spotify's ad system,

00:56:31   even if they're not in Spotify or not just in Spotify, because they also have some podcasts

00:56:38   that are not in Spotify, but if they're ad supported, Spotify wants to be the ones to sell

00:56:43   them. So that's really the risk here is that talk to a YouTube creator about the incredible amount

00:56:48   of leverage that YouTube has over their lives. Why do you think so many YouTube creators now do

00:56:51   Patreons? Like CGP Grey is a good example of that, but there are lots. It's like, well, that's a

00:56:56   direct connection with their audience where the money goes from the audience to the creator.

00:57:01   Whereas on YouTube, like there's a lot of money to be made if you've got a lot of followers with

00:57:06   their ad system, but anything that Google wants to do to you, you have to accept because they own

00:57:14   you because everything is on YouTube and Spotify looks at that and says, that's great. We want to

00:57:19   have that control over podcasters. Yeah. I want to dig into that a little bit more, that whole ad

00:57:24   thing, because if there's a thing I know podcast advertising, this is your business. So I believe

00:57:32   that like many, right? Like, I don't know how much of this is new thinking, but I want to add the

00:57:38   detail that I have. So I genuinely believe Spotify slicing and dicing the ad business. That's what

00:57:44   all of this is for. It's what the whole thing's been for. They want an additional large revenue

00:57:48   stream and they want to make a monetization platform for audio like YouTube have for video,

00:57:53   as Jason said, like so, but there is, this isn't just like, Oh, I think this is the case. This is

00:57:58   true. So one, they count these large deals in their ad business financially. They actually adjusted

00:58:06   some previous records to move the acquisition of Gimlet from their content arm financially to their

00:58:14   ad business financially, because that's where they're going to make money. So they're saying,

00:58:18   Oh, this is a cost for that part of the business. This doesn't affect anyone, but it's important to

00:58:23   see that because you can see how they value it. They've also spoken on conference calls,

00:58:28   Daniel Ek, the CEO of Spotify said the following, no, there, there has been no innovation in podcast

00:58:34   advertising, and we're working hard on building digital adsourcing technology. And we'll use that

00:58:39   technology to dramatically revolutionize ad experiences of podcast group listeners.

00:58:44   I think advertisers alike are very eager for us to get into the space with all of the measurability

00:58:49   tools and all of those things that we're bringing to the industry. To me, I can only read this as we

00:58:56   want to do what YouTube is doing, but for podcasts. And what that means is, so that ad I just did for

00:59:03   Ooni, that's not what you're going to hear. You may hear an ad, like an ad, right? In that place,

00:59:10   if that's, if I'm in the Spotify system, but it won't be me reading it. You're not going to hear

00:59:14   about Jason's experience making the pizzas. You're going to hear some prerecorded thing that maybe I

00:59:19   did, but probably somebody else did, like YouTube, right? They want to put ads into shows. And also

00:59:25   those ads may be about a local business to you because they're going to chuck them in there.

00:59:32   You may have heard people talk about, and we've spoken about this before,

00:59:35   DAI did like insertion. So the ads by tracking and they will insert stuff in. And because you're

00:59:41   using Spotify's closed platform, they're going to collect more data about you, right? That's going

00:59:47   to be a thing that they're going to do because they have the ability to do that. They can get

00:59:51   more information about you. Like Spotify already have some tools like this in place. Like relay.fm

00:59:58   shows are in Spotify, right? We did that because we're a business. It'd be wild not to. We want to

01:00:03   try and make our stuff available where we can. When we looked at the deal with them, the terms

01:00:08   were good. We review the terms. If the terms change, you know, we may not be in Spotify anymore.

01:00:12   I don't know. But Spotify have a closed platform and they have data that other places don't have,

01:00:18   right? Like they have breakdowns of age. They have breakdowns of gender. They can tell me,

01:00:23   I don't know how this is useful, but people don't listen to upgrade. What type of music do they like?

01:00:28   I don't know why that would be useful to me, but Spotify have a platform that can tell me that.

01:00:32   So they have more and they will do everything they can to get more and more data about you so

01:00:36   they can target the advertising to you. I don't know if they would succeed

01:00:45   if they stay just in the Spotify ecosystem because they would need a lot more of the market than they

01:00:52   already have. And they even would have by bringing Joe Rogan in to make sweeping changes to the

01:00:57   business model that affects everybody, right? They can't push in and be YouTube unless they

01:01:02   come up with a system, which was what Jason was saying, where if you listen in Apple Podcasts,

01:01:08   they also make money. But they can do that. They own Anchor, a podcast distribution hosting company

01:01:16   that has the advertising technology created that they're probably using, right? That's what they'll

01:01:21   use, where they can have ads put into shows. Anchor have this system. They made it, I believe,

01:01:27   just before they got bought by Spotify, but it was part of the play, I'm sure.

01:01:32   And I would believe that what Spotify want to do is try and get everyone to use the Spotify branded

01:01:39   podcast creation system so they can put ads in and tell you that you'll make money, right? That

01:01:46   everyone can make money podcasting now because they're going to spread the ads across everyone.

01:01:51   I don't think this is a good idea for a reason I get into in a minute, but I also would expect

01:01:56   that if you use this system, you obviously have to be on Spotify as well as everywhere else,

01:02:02   but I think some of the terms may say stuff like, "You should tell your listeners only to listen on

01:02:07   Spotify," right? Don't mention Apple Places. And for example, on the Gimlet shows right now,

01:02:15   they are saying, "The best place to listen to these shows is on Spotify." And obviously,

01:02:20   they're being told to say that because it doesn't make any sense. Spotify doesn't offer any

01:02:23   additional functionality, but they are being told to do that. So my wife, Adina, listens to a show

01:02:29   called Science Vs. and they had a little ad. It was kind of funny, but there's a little bit of

01:02:33   rebellion to it. So it's a science-based show and the host is saying, "You should listen on Spotify.

01:02:37   It's the best place to listen to this podcast." And then the producer jumps in and says, "Do you

01:02:41   have any scientific data for that?" And she says, "No." Right? So they're kind of making a funny

01:02:46   joke about it, but that's because their boss told them, "You have to say this now," because their

01:02:50   boss told them. So this is the kind of stuff that will be like, "They will allow you to use this

01:02:56   technology potentially in other places, but you have to say, 'Listen on Spotify.'" Again,

01:03:01   all of this is just my feeling about this, like my read on it. Now, if they can siphon off enough

01:03:07   large players, so advertising agencies, so there are agencies that recruit smaller companies,

01:03:13   right? So you have a few big agencies. You also have big companies like Squarespace, who,

01:03:18   you know, everybody knows Squarespace, but they do it on their own. They have a team.

01:03:21   But then you have advertising agencies who work directly with companies like us, and they work

01:03:26   with smaller companies that want to advertise on podcasts but don't have their own teams to do it,

01:03:31   right? And I think the big risk there is if Spotify can convince enough of those large

01:03:37   buying companies to work directly with them, that's the big risk. And I feel like that risk

01:03:43   is there right now. Like, because Spotify can walk in and say that they can be more effective,

01:03:49   they can have better data, and they'll have cheaper prices because they will push the market down.

01:03:53   - So the biggest name in podcasting right now is still Apple because they have the huge directory

01:04:00   and they have the most popular podcast client. But their approach to this, they are not Spotify.

01:04:06   Their approach to this is very different. I'm wondering what, if Apple looks at this and says,

01:04:12   "This isn't good. We don't like this," and they may or may not do that, what would their response

01:04:18   even be? - I don't think Apple has one.

01:04:20   - I mean, I have a suggestion, but I don't think they'll do it because I think what we've seen is

01:04:24   podcasting is a very... Apple is a huge fish in podcasting. They're big. They are the big fish in

01:04:32   the small pond. But within Apple podcasting is the tiny little fish in the enormous ocean. Like,

01:04:38   if that follows, Apple is very important to podcasting. Podcasting isn't very important

01:04:43   to Apple. That's the truth. People at Apple who work on podcasting are great.

01:04:47   But they're a very small group in a division that is not... I mean, well, it is a more important

01:04:54   division than it used to be, but it's a very small group. It's not a core part of Apple's strategy

01:04:58   to do podcasts, right? - Because the money that can be

01:05:00   made from podcasting is not business that Apple is in, which is advertising.

01:05:04   - No, it mostly is there because it helps make the iPhone the best place to listen to podcasts.

01:05:10   - Yeah. - And that makes the iPhone a better

01:05:11   product. And that's essentially... And it dates from 2005 and decisions made when Steve Jobs

01:05:17   rolled out that new version of GarageBand and put podcast directories in iTunes and stuff like that.

01:05:21   It's a legacy, but it turned into this accidental success for Apple, and they still have it.

01:05:28   I don't think that they're going to do much. There are some rumors that they're doing some stuff.

01:05:33   We've talked about the possibility of them doing Apple original podcasts, but they're really for

01:05:37   their Apple TV+ shows. There are some rumors that... - There was another report from Bloomberg that

01:05:43   they are doing this. They have podcasts focusing on their TV shows, and they're also buying podcasts

01:05:49   that they think they could turn into TV+ shows. Very different play to Spotify's purely content,

01:05:54   is what we assume right now. - Right.

01:05:58   - Yeah. - So here's the thing.

01:06:01   If I'm Apple and I look at Spotify... And Apple and Spotify have a bad relationship.

01:06:06   Let's also mention that. Spotify keeps calling out Apple and saying that Apple is anti-competitive

01:06:10   and that they should be a choice on the HomePod and in Siri and all these things. They have had a

01:06:18   prickly relationship, these two companies. If I'm Apple, I don't know. I feel like there's not a lot

01:06:25   I can do, but if I really want to spite Spotify attempting to take its ball and go home, I would

01:06:33   try to identify some of the most popular podcasts that remain and sign a licensing deal with them

01:06:42   that keeps them in an RSS feed. Which is a weird deal, right? But it's almost like you want to sign

01:06:52   a deal that they will be featured on Apple Podcasts or something and basically give them

01:06:58   money to not go to Spotify, but not lock them inside the Apple Podcasts app. Because I don't

01:07:04   think Apple's strategy is to make a silo inside the Podcasts app. I really don't think so.

01:07:08   But it's possible that they would do it. But you look at Spotify's strategy, they are

01:07:15   not trying to put it behind a paywall. They just want to put it in their app. So Apple,

01:07:21   the response would have to be, "What can we do to make deals with people so that they

01:07:28   don't put their podcast anywhere that isn't an open RSS feed?" And we'll call it like "featured in

01:07:35   Apple Podcasts," but what it really means is you can't go to Spotify. That's a weird thing,

01:07:42   and I'm not sure anybody could get any financial backing from Apple to do it. And yet,

01:07:48   that's the move here. That's the counter move that somebody would have to do, and it would have to be

01:07:53   Apple, is say, "We want you on our platform, and we want to make sure you don't leave podcasts to go

01:08:02   to Spotify, and so let's make a deal." I don't—yeah, like, that's the best I could come up with.

01:08:08   I like that, but I can't imagine that happening.

01:08:14   I have a hard time imagining it. All the rumors about Apple Podcasts, original podcasts,

01:08:20   and things like that are, "It'll be for subscribers of Apple News or News+ or TV+ or Apple Music," or

01:08:27   like, there are all of these stories out there that kind of speculate about, like, where does

01:08:33   this stuff go if it exists? And those all make more sense financially because they're kind of

01:08:39   going to the bottom line of some service, whereas Apple Podcasts doesn't generate—like,

01:08:46   it's not a service. It doesn't generate revenue, and if they wanted to create a service,

01:08:49   guess what? Now it's locked behind a paywall, and it's worse than what Spotify is doing with Joe

01:08:54   Rogan. But if Spotify are going to do—which is what I think they're going to do, which is mainly

01:09:00   build an advertising platform—it doesn't affect Apple because the shows will still be potentially

01:09:06   in open RSS feeds. I don't believe that Spotify are trying to lock the entire podcast ecosystem

01:09:14   behind their doors. I think that they like the idea of having that as part one of a two-part

01:09:20   plan, but the other part of that plan is building that monetization system. But if I'm Apple,

01:09:25   I don't care about part two. You're right, but I really care about part one because this is

01:09:28   Spotify making one of Apple's most popular podcasts leave Apple Podcasts and go to Spotify.

01:09:36   And that's—if I'm Apple, that's what I don't like. I don't like that now you can't get Joe

01:09:42   Rogan's show on Apple Podcasts. And how do I prevent that? How do I prevent that from happening?

01:09:49   I'm not sure there's a way to do it. But also, if you're Apple, it's like, "Well, they can't buy

01:09:54   all the shows." No, they can't. Spotify is going to run out of the money to spend on this stuff,

01:09:58   so you just kind of wait it out. That was the next point I was going to make, is maybe your strategy

01:10:02   as Apple is, "Hey, Spotify, we have way more money than you. Keep spending your money. You can't buy

01:10:08   all podcasts. So you've made a very good, clever investment here, but keep spending your money.

01:10:15   You're going to run out." And your ultimate—they would probably say, "We know what your step two is,

01:10:20   which is ads in open podcasts, too, and we don't care about that." And that's the most likely

01:10:28   scenario here, is that Apple continues to do what it has done all along with podcasts, which is be

01:10:34   sort of just take a hands-off attitude. They are incredibly powerful, but they do nothing.

01:10:41   I think that right now, the podcast industry, from the creator's perspective,

01:10:46   is at the greatest risk of a disruption than there ever has been before.

01:10:49   Because of two things. One is Spotify, this platform that they're clearly building, because

01:10:57   it's going to change if it works and they get what they want and they do what I think they're

01:11:02   going to do, which is provide ads for everyone if they want them. It will change the way that

01:11:09   advertising works and sounds. I think that it's not going to sound as good, it's not going to

01:11:13   sound natural anymore. I think that the advertising rates will go down because they'll be offering

01:11:20   kind of a marketplace-like platform like Google, Facebook, YouTube do. And I believe that because

01:11:28   of the pandemic, there will be a lot more people willing to make moves that they wouldn't have made

01:11:35   before because the advertising industry is already in flux. And there may be a bit of desperation on

01:11:42   everyone's side from big companies in podcasting that will be like, "Oh, Spotify can make it more

01:11:48   effective and cost better for us. We should do it if we're going to get more results for less money."

01:11:54   And there may be some large publishers who are like, "Oh man, we're really struggling right now.

01:11:58   We're going to sign on to the Spotify platform that's guaranteeing us some money."

01:12:03   So, you know, I don't know how I feel about all of this, but I do feel like it is becoming much

01:12:12   more significant. I've been able to brush it off a little bit more before Jason, but I feel like that

01:12:21   the stripe has been lifted off of this advertising thing from Spotify. And I think that they are

01:12:26   going to become a very large juggernaut and it's going to become more and more difficult

01:12:32   for people to work out advertising on their own if Spotify are making promises that other people

01:12:39   simply cannot give. Right? Like it is not possible for any podcast company in the open system to

01:12:48   provide the data that Spotify will be able to provide. And if they make everybody believe that

01:12:55   that will make the ads better, which I don't think it will, then they'll buy. Everyone's going to buy,

01:13:01   right? I'm going to buy through Spotify. And if that's where the money goes,

01:13:04   where's the industry going to go? So it's a bit doom and gloom, I know, but

01:13:10   this is where I think we're moving, or at least there is a much stronger chance of this happening

01:13:15   than there has been before. Also, I'll just throw out that advertising aside, I hate the idea of

01:13:22   walling off podcasts in separate apps because one of two things happens. Either you use that app,

01:13:30   at which point hopefully everything that you listen to can go in that app because some things

01:13:34   aren't in Spotify. You have to submit to go into Spotify. And that means Spotify controls your

01:13:39   whole interface. And if you don't like it, you don't have another choice. It is just what it is.

01:13:43   And having had this experience, which we did talk about on a previous episode with an Audible

01:13:47   original, which is what Audible calls their, essentially, podcasts that are behind the Audible

01:13:53   paywall, or you can get to some of them with a Prime account. But I got so frustrated with

01:13:59   a show I wanted to listen to because the Audible interface was frustrating. It was hard to figure

01:14:05   out how to queue up episodes, and it was totally separate from everything else I was listening to.

01:14:09   And it's a worse experience. I mean, it's great if you use Spotify all the time and love it and

01:14:14   everything you want to listen to is in Spotify. But for a lot of people, it's now adding complexity

01:14:20   to it. Will Barron

01:14:21   Should we do some more fun stuff? I guess, while we can.

01:14:25   Will Barron I haven't got anything more I want to say on this.

01:14:27   Will Barron All right.

01:14:28   Will Barron Like I said, everything's changing.

01:14:32   Everything's changing. And we'll see what happens. This episode is also brought to you by our friends

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01:15:54   Stitch on the RelayFM members Discord asked, "What are some of your favorite segments that

01:16:02   you hear on other podcasts?" Not necessarily that you should do it, but kind of ones that you wish

01:16:07   you maybe could steal or just stuff that you really enjoy. Jason, what about you?

01:16:12   Um, the podcast I listen to that has the most segments is the Poscast with Joe Posnansky and

01:16:21   Michael Schur and Friends, which is a podcast from The Athletic that they make available on

01:16:26   all podcasting platforms. Thank you very much so I can listen to it. And one of their segments is

01:16:33   the One Last Meaningless Thing to End This Meaningless Thing, which is just completely

01:16:39   random things that they do at the end of the show. And it's got a theme song and it's delightful,

01:16:44   and I like silly segments. So that's my favorite. We do love a silly segment around here. One of my

01:16:49   favorites are the ones that I'm kind of most jealous of as a producer of podcasts is On My

01:16:54   Brother, My Brother and Me. When they do their ads, it's called The Money Zone. And they take

01:17:00   their ad break by saying, "Shall we go to the money zone?" And then they have a little song

01:17:03   that plays them into the ads. And I mean, their ads are just like so funny and just also really

01:17:10   good content, which I also just like so jealous of comedy podcasts. I think we said that before,

01:17:15   right? That like comedy podcasts seem to be able to do whatever they want when it comes to ads,

01:17:19   which is wild. But anyway, I love the idea of calling the ad break the money zone.

01:17:25   It's just so smart and is a nice bridge and it like perfectly fits the themes of their shows. So

01:17:30   that's one that as a producer of shows, I'm jealous of. But as a listener of the show,

01:17:35   I actually really enjoy the ads. So there you go. Mark asks, "When is the last time you set up a Mac

01:17:42   iPad/iPhone from scratch? Do you prefer this to using data migration?" What about you, Jason?

01:17:49   Um, I decided to take the 13-inch review unit that I got, the 13-inch MacBook Pro review unit,

01:17:55   and not do any migration. It's such a pain though, because if I want to use it as a real computer

01:18:00   with all my stuff on it, I need to actually migrate. And I don't have a good place to migrate

01:18:06   from right now because the only laptop I have is my old MacBook Air and it's kind of an out-of-date

01:18:13   bad choice for this. So I keep meaning to set up one of my review laptops the way I like it

01:18:21   and then like time machine back up that laptop so that I can keep that and do a migration assistant

01:18:28   restore from that backup every time I review a laptop. But I haven't done it. So I end up

01:18:36   mostly just doing it from nothing and it's so frustrating to do that. But I also set up

01:18:44   new laptops more often than most people, right? Because I review them. But I prefer migration

01:18:52   assistant and I use that basically whenever possible. But it does take a while. And if you

01:18:58   want to get started, you can just bite the bullet. You get started with nothing. And then every time

01:19:02   you want to use something, you go, "God, that's not here." And then you have to install it. And

01:19:06   there's always that bootstrap moment where it's like, "I need to install one password

01:19:10   to get the password or the serial number for this thing. But that is on Dropbox. So I also need to

01:19:17   install." And you realize you got to install like five things to do the thing you want. And that is

01:19:21   not my favorite. - I never do this for my own stuff. Like I always will migrate from something

01:19:28   because I don't want to spend multiple days getting everything right. The 16-inch MacBook Pro

01:19:35   review unit that Apple gave me a while ago, I did just set it up from scratch because I wanted to

01:19:41   just get to use it. I didn't want to wait for like two days to transfer it over. And it's a nice

01:19:48   enough experience to like tinker around or reboot it from scratch. What do I need? What do I not

01:19:53   need? But I would never do this for like every product that I bought. It was nice to do as a

01:19:59   one-off thing. But when I do eventually buy a laptop for the studio, I will migrate it from

01:20:08   my current MacBook Pro. That's what I'll do for my own stuff. Because I'm moving so much data. Like

01:20:13   I don't want to re-download everything from my Dropbox again. Like I don't want to do that.

01:20:18   So I don't know how people do that for all the devices that they get. I know people do it and

01:20:23   they like to do it and like more power to you if that's your thing. But it would drive me bananas

01:20:28   to do it. Zaza also in the Relay FM members Discord asks, "How would I go about becoming

01:20:34   a tech writer for some of the sites that I love? Is there anything specific in a portfolio that

01:20:38   people would look for? And how would I even pitch myself or find writing gigs?" Jason,

01:20:42   I wanted to ask you about this because you've I guess come from multiple worlds when it comes

01:20:46   to stuff like this. From Macworld to now what you are at Six Colors. And I want to see if you

01:20:51   had any advice. I have no idea. The advice I always give is that the best thing to have is what we

01:20:59   used to call clips, which is samples of your work. And it used to be very hard to get samples of your

01:21:07   finished work because it means you have to it's a chicken and egg thing. You now have to find a

01:21:11   place to publish your work. Yeah, you have to have been published to be published. And it ends up

01:21:17   there's like a chain of things where you have to start someplace small that will take an unpublished

01:21:21   person and you have to have samples maybe that you've written that you show them that say,

01:21:24   "Well, you know, here's a sample of something that I've written." I always used to say for people

01:21:28   who are students like get on your student whatever it is and your newspaper, magazine, whatever,

01:21:33   and write there and then you can use those as an example for the internship you're applying for,

01:21:39   the job you're applying for. Like, look, well, I don't have any. At one point we were taking

01:21:44   applicants for an editor job at Macworld and we got somebody who was just out of college and we

01:21:48   asked them for writing samples and they said, "Well, did you do anything for your newspaper or

01:21:54   magazine or in a class or something?" I'm like, "No." And I thought, "I'm not going to hire you

01:21:59   because you showed no interest in writing publicly in college and now you suddenly want to be a

01:22:05   writer or editor?" It's like seems that was a red flag for me. All that is to say that today you

01:22:13   could just write in public yourself. So I would say first thing to do is set up a site, you know,

01:22:21   set up a Squarespace site or a medium blog or whatever. A place on the internet.

01:22:28   - Not medium. Own it. Own it even if it's free.

01:22:30   - Yeah, I guess. I mean, if you're just trying to get a job, I don't think it matters. But

01:22:34   whatever is easiest, set something up and write things that are like the things you want to write.

01:22:40   Just write them. And not only will you get better at writing, but you will have a thing on the

01:22:44   internet to point people to and say, "Oh, this is a sample of stuff." And then you have to approach

01:22:48   people you'd like to write for and one of the challenges there is that it needs to be a place

01:22:55   that has multiple writers. I remember when Dan Morin came to me and I didn't know who he was

01:23:01   and he said, "I would like to write." I said, "Talk to tidbits," because tidbits often would use

01:23:11   unpublished writers, new writers, and they didn't pay those writers, but it was like visibility

01:23:19   and it was a start. Today, I don't know, it's a much harder, more complicated world, but I think

01:23:26   it's got to start with your words in public. So that's really my advice is maybe write some stuff

01:23:34   that is the stuff you'd like to write in your own place and then go to whomever those sites are that

01:23:41   you love and say, "This is the kind of stuff I write. I would love to write something for you

01:23:45   and see if they give you a shot." But as somebody on the other side of it, I really wanted to see

01:23:50   examples and public examples, something that you put out there is the best. And obviously, public

01:23:56   examples at a website that has editors that have chosen to work with you and they published your

01:23:59   work is better, but if you don't have that, start somewhere and put your best work forward and maybe

01:24:07   even work at it for a little while and get better at it before showing that to those people who work

01:24:12   at the sites that you love. Andrew asks, "Do you think it would work if Apple made a virtual touch

01:24:18   bar on the bottom of the iPad screen for when you were using the Magic Keyboard to replace a function

01:24:23   row?" Well, so there's already that kind of Magic Smart Bar quick type thingy that's down there,

01:24:33   which is super buggy, especially when you're using a keyboard. Some apps bring it up and some apps

01:24:38   don't. I kind of feel like it's taking up space that I wish it didn't, but I would say that that's

01:24:46   the precedent. If Apple wanted to make that bar do more stuff when you've got an external keyboard

01:24:52   attached, they could. And this is the case—that's like a potential iOS 14 feature, right? Now that

01:24:57   they've really embraced even more the idea of this laptop configuration—and they already have the

01:25:02   Smart Keyboard, but with the Magic Keyboard, they've done it even more so—they could throw some love

01:25:09   that direction and make that a more refined interface element. Is that the touch bar? Well,

01:25:16   no, but it could be something like that. I don't have a lot of hope for it because that current

01:25:22   feature is kind of a mess, so I'm not sure. It could use a lot of work and get a lot of love,

01:25:28   it deserves that, but I'm not sure they're going to give it to it. Yeah, it would be—I mean,

01:25:32   there's a couple of buttons there for like "Copy/Paste," but that's it, right? It would be fun

01:25:37   to do something with that space if we're going to keep using it. There could be some more contextual

01:25:42   stuff to do. Especially if a keyboard's attached, right? It could be a completely different thing

01:25:48   when there's a keyboard attached. Yep, I would like that. That's not a bad idea. Eric asks,

01:25:53   "Do you think that Apple will add the AirPod Pro's 'buttons,' like the little

01:25:57   pressure-sensitive stems, to regular AirPods? The regular ones fit me better by the Mr. Controls?"

01:26:03   I think they will. I hadn't thought of this before, but I wouldn't be surprised if AirPods 2

01:26:09   included that little—I mean, it would just be like for play/pause and stuff like that, but

01:26:13   it seems logical to me. Like, it feels like the typical way that Apple will do things. Pro product

01:26:19   gets a new feature, and eventually it goes to the regular product, and then the Pro product version

01:26:23   2 gets another new feature. Do you think so? I think Apple prefers the squeeze thing to tapping

01:26:31   your ear. They should, because it's so much better. Right, so my guess is that, yes, at some point

01:26:39   they'll do that, but that doesn't feel like as big a differentiating feature, so if they decide to

01:26:46   make changes and actually redesign the AirPods and not just leave them as they are, but actually

01:26:52   change them physically, I would think that they would change to that approach. I think they would

01:26:56   do that. I think the next version will get smaller, like the regular AirPods will get a bit smaller.

01:27:00   Because I don't think—it's the Pro differentiator. I think it's more just like a feature that they

01:27:05   added to the Pro product, but I think the noise cancelling and stuff is really the differentiator.

01:27:10   So the squeezing instead of tapping your head in order to do stuff, I think as a matter of course,

01:27:16   they'd probably try to add if they did a redesign. But that's the question, is when are they going to

01:27:21   actually redesign that product? Because they've got, you know, maybe they just figure it's good

01:27:25   enough and they're going to keep it the way it is. Who knows? And Glenn asks, "What's the best time

01:27:32   for a cup of tea?" I mean, any time. Oh, that's why I knew you were going to say that. I only

01:27:38   put this question in here because I knew you were going to say any time. But I did want to ask you.

01:27:41   But I mostly have it in the morning. It's mostly in the morning and, you know, first thing in the

01:27:46   morning, cup of tea and my breakfast and that's the best. I only ever have tea at bedtime, so it

01:27:51   becomes a mild tea if I need to get a bit sleepy. But I drink coffee and I drink coffee in the

01:27:57   morning and then I'll have some coffee in the afternoon. I typically only have like, what would

01:28:02   be in total four shots of espresso a day. So I'll typically have a double shot espresso drink in the

01:28:09   morning and I always put phone milk and that kind of stuff, cappuccino, that kind of deal.

01:28:13   And then I will have either in the afternoon a second double shot drink or I will have two

01:28:20   single shots depending on the show breakup that I'm doing. I'll typically have my second coffee

01:28:26   before I start recording a show. So I had one before upgrade. But on some days, like Wednesdays,

01:28:32   when I record two shows, I'll have one at three o'clock and one at six o'clock. So I have a bit

01:28:36   of caffeine to get me through these podcasts in the most upbeat way I can possibly be.

01:28:42   So that's it for #AskUpgrade. You can submit questions with #AskUpgrade on Twitter

01:28:50   or the question mark #AskUpgrade command in the Relay FM members Discord. I will mention again

01:28:56   at this point before we go into our break and talk about Myke at the movies, the Ferris Bueller.

01:29:01   If you want to become a Relay FM member, we'd really, really appreciate it. You can click a

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01:30:47   Myke at the movies time. And this is a rare Myke at the movies for a couple of reasons. One,

01:30:54   I've seen the movie before many times and love the movie. And another rarity is I've seen the movie

01:31:00   more than Jason has. Way, way more times than way more times. I've maybe seen this movie like five

01:31:06   or six times. I think this was Jason's second time. Second. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll just say

01:31:10   straight off the top, like I absolutely love Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Like the reason we picked it

01:31:15   is because we're like, oh, let's do a Myke at the movies. Uh, let's pick something fun. And I find

01:31:20   this movie very fun. But the real reason I love Ferris Bueller is there are absolutely no stakes

01:31:25   in this movie. It is the most easy watching movie that I can think of. Uh, nothing that can happen

01:31:31   to anyone in this movie by and large will affect their life that much. Um, everyone is kind of,

01:31:39   you feel like not only in a better place by the end of the movie, but any drama that happens to

01:31:43   them is resolved pretty quickly. Um, and that's one of the reasons that I love this movie.

01:31:48   I mean, other than, other than Cameron in the car and his dad. But he's like super fine about it,

01:31:53   like immediately. Right. Like he thinks it's a good thing that happens when the car is destroyed.

01:31:57   Right. Like to him, it's like, brilliant. This is exactly what I wanted. Um, and so like,

01:32:02   and, and everything else in the movie where, you know, he's like, things seem to be affecting him.

01:32:07   You look at it like it's not really affecting him that much. Right. Like there isn't any

01:32:10   drama in his life until that point where the car is destroyed, but he is the one who starts the car

01:32:15   destruction anyway. It was his choice, you know? Right. Um, David Schwab in the discord has said

01:32:21   about Totoro. Totoro is a good movie where, well, it's a chill movie until everyone thinks that the

01:32:28   young daughters died. Right. So like that's, you know, like it gets pretty serious there.

01:32:33   Uh, and yet she's fine. Totoro and, uh, Kiki's Delivery Service are both movies where there's

01:32:40   no villain. Kiki is more chill than Totoro. Yeah. But that's the difference here, right? Is there

01:32:47   is a villain in this. Oh, by the way, having seen, having never seen Home Alone and Ferris

01:32:53   Bueller's Day Off through the eighties and the nineties. It is funny having seen them both now,

01:33:00   for Myke at the Movies no less. Um, oh my goodness. They are absolutely from the same person,

01:33:06   right? Like it is, I kept, I kept waiting for more wet bandits things to happen to the Dean as he

01:33:11   entered the house. Right. Like there's definitely a lot of moments where you're like, oh, oh yeah,

01:33:16   it's Home Alone. I see. I see it now. And it's like, oh, why is this movie in Chicago? Because

01:33:21   John Hughes would only make movies in Chicago. That's why. Exactly. It's like funny. It's like

01:33:26   a funny thing. That is kind of weird, right? Like in Myke at the Movies lore that John Hughes movies,

01:33:31   I've seen to bring these movies, like just randomly. I never saw John Hughes movies when I

01:33:36   was a teenager. I never did. Which is funny because my wife, her boyfriend in high school

01:33:43   worked at a movie theater. So she literally saw every movie that was released in the eighties. So

01:33:47   she has this amazing catalog of knowledge of eighties movies that I don't have. Huh? Yeah.

01:33:53   Including all the John Hughes stuff. I just, but so anyway, I watched it and it's fun. And,

01:33:58   oh, I think the most important thing that I can add here is,

01:34:00   Oh yeah. That's all I got. This is yes. But even though there is a villain, he's a laughable

01:34:11   villain. We watched this last night with my son. Who's 15. We're like, you'd like this movie.

01:34:18   And what he said about five minutes in is, okay, either this is going to be one of those movies

01:34:24   where everything goes really, really, really, really bad at some point and everything,

01:34:29   just everything goes bad, or it's going to be one of those movies where in the end, everything is

01:34:34   fine and nothing goes bad and it's super happy. But he's like, and I was like, you're right kid.

01:34:39   It is definitely going to be one of those things. I never really thought of it in those terms.

01:34:43   And he said, and there's a, maybe a chance that everything looks like it's going to go horribly

01:34:47   bad, but at the very last minute, it's all resolved and it's all fine. And I, and I'm sitting there

01:34:51   thinking, no, it's the one where everything is fine. That's what this movie is. It's that's the

01:34:56   kind of movie it is. And he appreciated it, but he was right. That, that there is a moment 30 minutes

01:35:01   in where you're like, either this is about to go disastrously wrong, or it's never going to go

01:35:06   wrong. And this is the kind of movie, which is why we picked it because it's a movie that is just

01:35:11   kind of fun and happy. Uh, and, and absurd things happen. And, uh, although there are some character

01:35:17   moments that are stressful in the end, it's pretty much a sunny, again, it's a sunny, warm day.

01:35:23   The weather's nice. Why would you, why would you be inside? You know, it's like, it just wants to

01:35:29   have the best day you can possibly give Cameron. Right. Like that's what it ends up being, which is

01:35:33   like, yes, this very sweet thing, which you find out. Cause it seems like, you know, there are

01:35:37   points in the movie where you're like, Ferris is cool, but he's kind of a bully towards his best

01:35:43   friend. Right. It's kind of how it feels at points. Like he's making Cameron do things

01:35:47   Cameron doesn't want to do, but there is like this dual thing of like one, you can see the

01:35:51   Cameron's kind of getting stuck in a rut a little bit and needs to be like, he needs some shaking

01:35:56   up. Right. And his friends trying to help him out by like shaking him out of his funk. Right.

01:36:02   But also they're about to go off to college and he is going to miss his best friend who he's

01:36:08   probably grown up with. Right. You assume like they've been friends forever kind of thing,

01:36:12   and he's going to miss him. So he wants to give Cameron the best day he can. And by the end of it,

01:36:18   he has right. Like Cameron's like the most senior year kind of movie ever. Right. Because it is that

01:36:24   impending end. Right. That they're, they're seniors. So they kind of don't care. Even though

01:36:29   the Dean's like, aha, I can make you not graduate, which is dumb. But, uh, but he has to say that

01:36:33   cause he's the Dean and it's his job, but you know, they're, they're going to leave and they're

01:36:37   going to go off to college and there's the, you know, none of them are probably going to be able

01:36:42   to spend any time, substantial time together. Like soon, it's going to happen soon that this is the

01:36:48   end and it's all just kind of hovering over this. And it, you know, it's just, that is definitely

01:36:54   very specific time of life. Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in

01:36:59   a while, you might miss it. This is so funny coming from like a teenager, right? Like it's

01:37:03   one of the great things that whenever he breaks the fourth wall, which is a lot in this movie,

01:37:07   Ferris played by Matthew Broderick, who is just so unbelievably cool in this movie,

01:37:14   right? Like the coolest kid in any movie, right? Like I can't think of a cooler kid,

01:37:20   right? Like just plays it so well. He's so cool. Um, but like the, he, he speaks with like such

01:37:27   experience in his life, which is just so brilliant and so funny. Like, I love it. And there are so

01:37:33   many elements of this throughout, but like, even when he is talking later on about like the fact

01:37:38   that, you know, he knows that we're gonna, we're gonna move away from each other. And then he's

01:37:43   talking about Sloan played by Mia Sara and is like, I'm going to marry her, but we're going to

01:37:49   be, she's, she's a, she's got one more year of high school. What are we going to do? It's just

01:37:54   like, all these things are just so funny to me. Like, cause in his world, he, you know, this is

01:37:59   everything that he knows, right? And he's the oldest he's been and he's had all this experience.

01:38:04   So he's got it all figured out, right? Ferris. And it's just so lovely like that. It's just that

01:38:10   feeling of being that age when ever you're still a kid, but adult things are happening to you and

01:38:16   people are starting to treat you more like an adult and you feel like you've grown up way faster than

01:38:22   you actually have or then, or you feel like you're way more grown up than you really are because

01:38:26   these things start happening to you and you just think you got it all figured out. It's great.

01:38:30   And there are so many wonderful moments in this movie. Um, you know, like there are so many iconic

01:38:38   moments, right? Like Bueller, Bueller, Bueller. Right. Ben Stein, who, who apparently I knew that

01:38:43   Ben Stein's background was in economics. And so when he's talking about the Laffer curve and voodoo

01:38:47   economics and all of that, apparently originally he was going to be on off screen, like a Charlie

01:38:51   Brown kind of adult where you'd hear his voice off screen, but not see him. But they thought he was

01:38:55   hilarious. And they, he, that whole boring economics thing, which I love because I love all

01:39:00   the reaction shots of the kids sitting in the desks. He, that's all just him. He, he wrote that

01:39:06   himself, uh, just listing off economic things to do a boring economic lecture. And it's, it's so,

01:39:14   it's so good. Cause you know, all the students just don't, everybody else is out there. Our friends

01:39:20   are out there outside in the sun having a good time and they are having their souls sucked out

01:39:24   of their bodies. And he does that great teacher thing of he'll like say a thing and then finish

01:39:30   the sentence and be like, anybody, and no one says anything. And he just carries on it every single

01:39:34   time. Right. And we call this anybody the Laffer curve, right. It's like the whole, like, it's so

01:39:40   presented so well and it goes on so much longer than it should, which makes it better. Um, I,

01:39:46   I love everything about Sloan being broken out of school. Right. Oh my God. Everything about that,

01:39:53   like 10 minutes is excellent. Right. Starting with the phone call, right. When, when, uh,

01:40:00   Rooney, the Dean is like losing his mind at who he thinks is Ferris on the phone. And then Ferris

01:40:06   calls on the other line. Right. But it's actually Cameron pretending to be Mr. Peterson. Right.

01:40:12   Which we didn't know that we didn't know that Cameron was finally all in on the plan. Now

01:40:16   here he, here he is and he's all in on the plan, but then he makes the mistake of saying that we'll

01:40:21   pick her up. And so how are we going to do that? So then they have to get the car and, and, uh,

01:40:26   two parts about the Sloan breaking out part, like of her one is as soon as the nurse comes in the

01:40:31   room, she starts putting on a jacket because she knows that Ferris is must be doing something.

01:40:36   And then the next part when, cause then, uh, Ferris has to like, so they steal the car, right. So it

01:40:41   looks like he's an adult and he dresses up as a, I don't know, like a private eye or something.

01:40:46   Yeah. He's basically inspector gadget or something at that point. Yeah. So, uh, uh, yeah. I wanted

01:40:52   to talk about the thing that struck me this time. Just one, one last part about it. Just about that

01:40:56   one part, just a very throwaway line where Sloan goes, I guess that's my dad. Yeah. Right.

01:41:02   That was just, so it's that kind of family. Oh yeah. So good. So good. The thing that I noticed

01:41:11   this time that I really appreciated is Ferris call the Ferris cult. Yes. Yes. And it's so good

01:41:19   because they show it in a limited number of scenes. But one of the genius things that Ferris Bueller

01:41:25   does is, is he, it's not just that he's cool because yeah, he's kind of cool, but he has

01:41:33   created this cult of popularity about himself and he's done it. He's manipulated the school

01:41:42   into believing he is a cult figure. So everybody knows him or knows of him. Everybody knows about

01:41:48   him. And there's that amazing scene where he calls the payphone and he's basically talking to

01:41:52   freshmen. And then he talks to the girl and he's just trying to get these stories seated. So that

01:41:59   later we keep seeing more stories coming back about, Oh, I heard Ferris did this. I heard

01:42:04   Ferris did that. We're pulling for you. Um, it all, it, it culminates in just laugh out loud

01:42:10   moments where there's save Ferris outside Wrigley field on the billboard. There's a save Ferris on a

01:42:15   water tower. It's so amazing. And the, and the, uh, we're all thinking of you. And how everybody

01:42:21   mentions it, the flowers. Oh yes. We're, we're really pulling for your son. We hope he gets

01:42:25   better. And they're like, what? Oh, I guess he's sick. So, and they just move on. It is so amazing.

01:42:30   And it's all, it's all him. It's all, he wants to have this out there because he knows that if

01:42:37   he seeds disinformation, basically propaganda, that it helps him because his enemy, the Dean,

01:42:45   is going to be more confused and he doesn't know exactly how it's going to go, but that doesn't

01:42:49   really matter. He just needs to churn the water a little bit and make it all a little confusing.

01:42:54   And he becomes, I mean, it's very modern. It's very 21st century. In fact, I said,

01:42:59   after we watched it, I said, you know, it would be hashtag save Ferris now. Oh my gosh. Yes. And,

01:43:04   and, but it is, it is brilliant and I love it. So that's, that's actually the, my favorite thing

01:43:09   this time is just how perfectly he, uh, he creates his own image of Ferris Bueller. Uh, and then he

01:43:19   can use that to his advantage. It's spectacular. And that is a part of this movie that gets better

01:43:24   on rewatching because a lot of them, especially the one on Wrigley Field, you miss that. If you're

01:43:31   not like, you can very easily miss the save Ferris on that side. And it's amazing. And you've,

01:43:35   and you've just seen the most amazing scene, maybe my favorite scene in the whole movie,

01:43:39   which is where the Dean looks away at the moment that Ferris catches the foul ball and Ferris

01:43:45   and Cameron are on the TV in, uh, in, in the sandwich place or wherever it is and Sloan.

01:43:53   And they're right there. It's like proof. This is, cause this is, I don't know if you,

01:43:57   you have the equivalent of this because most soccer matches, football matches in the UK,

01:44:02   which is the most popular sport there, like are on the weekend or in the evening,

01:44:06   but like day baseball games, it is a thing about like, I hope I don't get spotted.

01:44:10   You call in sick to work or school and you go to the baseball game in a day. And then there's this

01:44:14   like urban legend of, but then they were on the TV or they were on the big screen and their boss

01:44:18   saw them and then they were in trouble. And so it's, that is what's happening here, except that

01:44:23   the Dean just doesn't look at the TV. It's so amazing. It's part where he's about to get found

01:44:30   out, right? He's like Ferris, Nope. He just slides that one by. It's amazing. So I love, I love that.

01:44:37   And one of my favorite parts is at the end of the movie, all of the flowers in the hallway,

01:44:41   which they, you barely see cause you're at the end of the hallway and you just see it in the distance,

01:44:46   but as all of the flower arrangements that have been delivered because Ferris is dying.

01:44:51   He needs a new kidney or something. Yeah. Another one, one thing I am always surprised

01:44:56   about every time I watch this movie is that Jennifer Grey is in this movie. I always forget

01:45:00   that Jennifer Grey is in this movie. I know Ferris has a sister and, but I never remember that it's,

01:45:05   that it's baby right from Dirty Dancing. And one of my favorite things about this movie is the fact

01:45:11   that Jeannie, who she plays is never in class. Jeannie is so mad that Ferris skipped school,

01:45:17   but every clip of her, she's never in class. She's in the hallway at the school. She's going

01:45:23   to complain to another teacher. She's driving past the gym class, complaining about the fact

01:45:28   that Ferris isn't there, even though she's not at school. It's so good. And like the whole dynamic

01:45:35   between her and Ferris is so great because like she is so wronged, right? Because Ferris is like,

01:45:43   clearly is Ferris is the favorite child, right? Because they think he can do no wrong. And like,

01:45:48   there's that moment at the end where like, because Jeannie, she got arrested, right? Because she

01:45:54   called for the- Arrested for making a false police report about the Dean breaking into their house,

01:45:59   which she did. And he left his wallet on the floor and yet she doesn't point that out to the cops,

01:46:06   I guess. But the whole idea here is that Ferris can do no wrong and she can do no right. But then

01:46:11   there's that moment, right, where like, she's then messed up the mom's deal and then outside,

01:46:16   he's like, "What are we going to do with Jeannie?" And the dad's like, "We're going to shoot her,

01:46:18   I guess." Just like the most ridiculous thing, which he obviously doesn't mean,

01:46:24   but it's the idea of like, she's the problem child. She is the problem child. She is disfavored

01:46:29   and everybody loves Ferris. But like her, the anger that she has is so funny, right? And yet

01:46:35   she doesn't, in the end, she doesn't rat him out. She actually, she helps him succeed. Which is so

01:46:40   nice, right? Because it's like, even though she hates him, it's that brother-sister hate,

01:46:44   it's not the real hate. Her role in this movie is so good. She plays it so well. And then the

01:46:52   whole thing with Charlie Sheen is just fantastic, right? That he's like the bad boy in the police

01:46:56   station. But the best part of this movie, my favorite part of this movie, is the parade.

01:47:01   Okay, first off, why is the German parade happening on a weekday?

01:47:06   They're good now.

01:47:07   Are there no good, are there no good weekends? Maybe this is a real Chicago thing, I don't know,

01:47:12   but I think it's weird that the German-American parade is being forced to happen on a weekday.

01:47:17   Do they not get a weekend for that? But yes, it is great because they, where's Ferris?

01:47:25   They lose track of him. Oh, he's up there. He sings Dankeschon, which he does throughout the

01:47:32   movie, that song appears. And then Twist and Shout, of course. Famous German anthem, Twist and Shout.

01:47:39   One of my favorite scenes in all movies because it looked like it must have been so fun to make.

01:47:46   Like Matthew Broderick, in that moment, must have felt like the king of the world.

01:47:51   Because all those extras, the whole parade.

01:47:55   They're losing their mind. It's like an unnecessary great choreographed dance scene,

01:47:59   right, that's happening. But like when they finish the song and everyone just starts screaming and

01:48:03   cheering, you can see like he's a little flush because it must have just been this absolute rush

01:48:09   to be in that moment. It is a fantastic scene, and it must have just been so good to make.

01:48:17   The amount of extras. I can't even think of a movie where I've seen that many people in a

01:48:25   scene before. It's such a small space. It's really just so good. Something super weird that I wanted

01:48:33   to ask you about. So the garage attendants take the Ferrari out for a joyride, right?

01:48:38   Yes.

01:48:40   Why does the Star Wars music play when they jump in the car?

01:48:44   It's fun. It's fun. It's adventurous.

01:48:46   One, how did they get it? And two, I don't even know if it's the right piece of music.

01:48:51   The Space Odyssey theme would have made more sense to me in that moment. It just felt super

01:48:58   like, "Why is the Star Wars music playing right now?" It's very peculiar to me.

01:49:02   It is a surprising choice.

01:49:03   Yeah, it's a great piece of music, but I don't know if it's the one that I would have picked.

01:49:08   It was just a very strange choice. But yeah, obviously this movie ends in the great

01:49:15   fence-hopping scene. He's racing.

01:49:17   Yes, which I got to explain to Julian that this is the scene that's being referenced in Spider-Man

01:49:25   Homecoming.

01:49:25   Spider-Man, Simpsons do it, Family Guy does it. If you've never seen Ferris Bueller,

01:49:32   you've seen this scene before. It is one of the parodied scenes, the great parodied scenes.

01:49:39   I love this movie.

01:49:43   I wanted to shout out the Dean, Edward R. Rooney, who always,

01:49:47   Jeffrey Jones always has his middle name, Edward R. Rooney. I love him as a villain.

01:49:55   He is a classic 80s movie villain. He's less... He's awful, but he's kind of less offensively

01:50:04   awful than something like a William Atherton villain in Real Genius and Die Hard. I think

01:50:09   mostly because he's so inept. Also, I want to do a shout out to Edie McClurg as Grace,

01:50:16   his secretary, who has eight pencils in her hair. She keeps removing pencils.

01:50:21   And she's sniffing White Out or something?

01:50:22   The White Out, yeah. But Jeffrey Jones, he is... I think a large portion of my delight of this movie

01:50:31   is seeing him get thwarted at every turn and knowing that even when he gets the goods on

01:50:38   Ferris, he can't do it. It's always ruined. And he ends up riding on the school bus with one shoe and

01:50:49   his thing torn and all of that at the end and sits in the next to last row. I love that performance.

01:50:58   It gives the movie some drive because they have... He can't all be just lying about who they are,

01:51:04   the sausage king, at the dinner or at the lunch. It can't all be that. They need to have some sort

01:51:11   of pursuit happening. But it's a ludicrous pursuit. Like you said, the stakes are pretty low.

01:51:20   Theoretically, Ferris could get thrown out of school or have to repeat his senior year or

01:51:24   something like that. But really, it's not going to happen. But it's good to have him there as

01:51:31   this kind of cartoonish villain to continue to just be thwarted. It very much is a cartoon

01:51:36   villain, right? Like in Home Alone, you delight in him just constantly being destroyed.

01:51:42   And I love just how hard he's trying. It is completely unnecessary to break into the house.

01:51:52   He leaves on personal business because he's got a vendetta against Ferris Bueller. He has to get

01:51:59   Fer... Get that. I gotta get that guy. Right? Like it doesn't have... It's not logical in any way.

01:52:04   Especially the breaking into the house. What is he expecting to achieve by breaking into the house?

01:52:09   He's going to go up to Bueller's room and prove that he's not in second bed.

01:52:12   To who?

01:52:13   I don't know. To himself.

01:52:17   But then what is he going to do with that information? Right? Like it's...

01:52:20   You know, he clearly knows he's villain. He knows that like Ferris has everyone for him.

01:52:25   Right? No one's against him. It's so good.

01:52:27   The way I read it is that... And I think there's a fine line you have to walk with this character.

01:52:32   Is he's gone around the bend on this one. Like he has left reality behind. He has...

01:52:38   He's going to pursue this vendetta. Even if he has to commit crimes, he's going to pursue this.

01:52:42   He's completely lost it. And yet at the same time, you don't want it to be like too far

01:52:47   that direction because then I think it would get weird. So it needs to be realistic-ish

01:52:56   while also showing him having... Like he's obsessed with Ferris Bueller at this point.

01:53:01   I think that's a good... That's the good line to walk because that makes it kind of a cat and mouse

01:53:05   game, but it also makes it kind of fun to watch him because we know that he's completely lost it

01:53:10   in this moment as he watches the number of unexcused absences on the computer screen

01:53:15   just go down from nine to seven to four to two.

01:53:20   Wonderful movie.

01:53:23   It's a lot of fun. It's just a shot of delight. And I can say as somebody who lived through the 80s,

01:53:29   did it look like that? Oh yeah, it did. Yeah, it did. That Jennifer Grey and Mia Sarah.

01:53:35   And right then like the girl in the arcade or the pizza place or whatever it is who turns around,

01:53:40   who looks like Ferris from the back. Like, oh my God, that is what people look like and what

01:53:46   the stuff people wore. And the moms blonde hair with the dark roots and all that. It's like, yes,

01:53:52   that is what people look like in the 80s. It is so perfectly capturing the 80s.

01:53:57   I would love to see a modern day Ferris Bueller. I don't know if it could be done well enough,

01:54:03   but I would love to see someone try. With like Tom Holland. I feel like Tom Holland would do

01:54:07   such a good job as Ferris Bueller. They would never... It would never be better. And there

01:54:14   was a TV show by the way. Was there? Yeah, in 1990 there was a TV show. But

01:54:20   I mean, do they need to make another Ferris Bueller? I don't know. I would love to see

01:54:26   somebody try to make a movie that felt like this though. Right? Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's what I

01:54:32   would like to see is it doesn't, you don't need to call a Ferris Bueller's day off. I mean, you could

01:54:35   if you wanted to, but like I would love to see a movie that feels like this in terms of just being

01:54:40   kind of like sunny and fun and about kind of rebelling, but in a kind of positive fun way

01:54:48   and having low stakes and having a sort of silly opponent who doesn't really threaten you.

01:54:55   That's like make more movies like this. Wow. Jennifer Aniston played Genie in the TV series.

01:55:02   Wow. I'd never heard of this before. That's wild. Yeah. It was not successful. They did. They got

01:55:11   their first 13 episode order and then they were out. And most of it got burned off or no,

01:55:16   I guess some of it got burned off in the summer one episode of it. So yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So

01:55:21   they did that. That was a bad idea. That's hilarious. And I don't think Ferris Bueller as a

01:55:29   series works, right? Because I mean, I could see it maybe as like a Netflix series or something,

01:55:36   but as a sitcom, I can't see it because it's his same schtick every time I would think. Yeah. And

01:55:44   you lose the magic of the movie. Because eventually you'd have to have something bad happen to him,

01:55:48   which would undo the good feeling. So here's, yeah, here's my pitch. Here's my pitch for my

01:55:52   Netflix series of Ferris Bueller's Day Off, which is, you know, Money Heist? I'm familiar with it.

01:55:59   Have you seen that? It's like a bank robbery that happens over a bunch of episodes. And it's like a

01:56:05   whole like heist over a whole many seasons in a continuing story. It's like, I want to do that

01:56:12   for Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I want it to be, we can do a season, maybe two seasons, but it's all

01:56:19   just this one Ferris Bueller Day Off. Okay. And every episode is another, you know,

01:56:26   there's the episode where we get Cameron. It's like 24, but for Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

01:56:30   Yeah. Well, I mean, because that's Money Heist is basically like 24 for a bank robbery, right? So

01:56:35   yes, that's, that's my pitch is I don't want to leave the day. Maybe it goes into like the

01:56:41   weekend or something at the end, but I don't want to leave the day. I want it to be that day.

01:56:47   And I want it to be like, let's detail in and we can have characters cross each other. So there can

01:56:52   be other shenanigans happening. You know, we'll have Cameron is doing something over here and

01:56:57   Ferris is doing something over here and Sloan is doing something over here and the sister is doing

01:57:01   something here. And they're all going to be like crossing each other. And you're going to have

01:57:05   those moments like you have in the movie where it's like, wait, is that? And then you look again,

01:57:09   it's like, no, no, that wasn't Ferris. Of course it wasn't. And, and you do one episode that's

01:57:15   just in the high school and it's all about what people know about Ferris that they don't know.

01:57:18   Like that's how I would pitch it if it was like a Ferris Bueller TV series, but don't make it

01:57:24   because it's the movie is great and you're never going to surpass it. But that would be my pitch.

01:57:27   Don't make it unless you call Jason. Call Jason.

01:57:30   Yeah. Call me. Call me and, and my good friend, Matthew Broderick. And we will work out something.

01:57:38   Wait, you want Matthew Broderick to play Ferris Bueller?

01:57:40   No, no, he's going to be, no, he's going to be the, uh, he's going to be a cameo.

01:57:45   He played the dad.

01:57:46   He might be the dad.

01:57:47   That would work.

01:57:48   Sure.

01:57:48   That'd be fun.

01:57:49   He might be the dad, but something like that. Yeah.

01:57:52   Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade. Next week's episode, 300.

01:57:56   Don't forget, send in your meta Ask Upgrade questions. You can send them out with a tweet

01:58:02   with the hashtag Ask Upgrade or question Mark Ask Upgrade in the Relay FM discord. If you want to

01:58:07   find the show notes for this week's episode, you can find them in your podcast app of choice or on

01:58:11   the web at relay.fm/upgrade/299. Thanks again to our wonderful sponsors for their support of this

01:58:17   show. That is Ooni Pizza Ovens, Linode, Pingdom and Fully. If you want to find Jason online,

01:58:23   go to sixcolors.com. And he's also @jasonel, J S N E double L. I am @imike, I M Y K E. And we'll

01:58:30   be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:58:33   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:58:37   Say Ferris.

01:58:38   [Music]