297: Factual Controller


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 297.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by PDFPEM from Smile, Pingdom, and DoorDash.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Curley. I am joined by the intrepid Jason Snow.

00:00:20   Hello, Jason Snow.

00:00:21   [Singing]

00:00:23   Intrepidly yours, Myke. Hi, how are you?

00:00:25   I am very well, my friend. Very well indeed. Big show.

00:00:28   Action packed, as they say today.

00:00:30   We start, as we always do, with a #snowtalk question.

00:00:34   This one comes in from Chris.

00:00:36   Chris wants to know, "Jason, while you're working in your office,

00:00:38   do you ever open the garage door for an open-air, Hawaiian, Linai-style vibe?"

00:00:44   Hmm.

00:00:45   This is very descriptive. I enjoyed this one, you know?

00:00:48   Yes. The answer is no. If I want to work outside, I go outside.

00:00:52   Right. Ah, yes. Don't bring the outside to you, Jason. Go to the outside.

00:00:56   Right, because I still have, like, a curtain and a giant set of metal shelving

00:01:01   between me and the outside, so it's not...

00:01:03   Even if I move the curtains and stuff, it's like, it's not super pleasant.

00:01:08   I have opened the garage door and worked before,

00:01:11   but it's mostly because it's intolerably hot.

00:01:14   If it gets intolerably hot in here and it is cooler outside, I will sometimes do that.

00:01:17   The problem is, when I do that, then there's bugs in my office

00:01:21   for some unknown amount of time.

00:01:24   And in the house, because then I'll open the door to the house,

00:01:27   and when I'm done, even after I've closed the garage door,

00:01:29   but the bugs will come in here and then they go in there,

00:01:31   and then there's, like, flies and stuff around.

00:01:33   As we know, bugs in your office can lead to repairs required.

00:01:38   Do you remember the spider?

00:01:39   The spiders are always with me.

00:01:41   The spiders. Oh, please don't.

00:01:43   But anyway, people don't remember, Jason wrote a great article once,

00:01:46   I'm sure we spoke about it on the show too,

00:01:48   when you had a spider stuck in your screen.

00:01:52   Yes. Tiny one, tiny one.

00:01:53   Yeah, I had to do an IMAX screen replacement.

00:01:56   No, the spiders, I mean, there are gonna always be spiders in my office,

00:01:59   but, like, flying bugs and stuff come in when the garage door is open.

00:02:04   It's no good.

00:02:05   So, no, I don't generally do that.

00:02:08   That's a good question, 'cause I do have, unlike many, most people,

00:02:12   my office place has a giant roll-up door to the outside world.

00:02:16   It's true.

00:02:17   But it's not that.

00:02:18   It's not as great as it sounds.

00:02:20   It's not as spectacularly fantastic as it sounds

00:02:25   to have a garage door in your office.

00:02:27   So I just go outside, sit in a chair.

00:02:29   Yeah.

00:02:30   We'll talk about those chairs a little bit later on in the episode.

00:02:33   Fun times.

00:02:34   If you would like to send in a question to start off the show,

00:02:37   just send out a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk,

00:02:39   and it may be considered for a future episode.

00:02:42   I wanted to provide a little bit of follow-out,

00:02:44   more about Relay FM membership.

00:02:46   We've got a lot going on right now.

00:02:47   We published -- I don't like the phrase, like, "open letter,"

00:02:51   but I can't think of another phrase.

00:02:53   Like, basically, we wrote something that we want you to read about --

00:02:57   we're calling it Moving Forward here at Relay FM.

00:03:01   Basically, we spent a lot of time over the last month or so

00:03:04   thinking about our membership program,

00:03:06   because we are in a time where businesses need to adapt

00:03:10   their business models, and so we want to be able to do that.

00:03:13   And so one of the things that we're doing is doubling down

00:03:16   on our most important thing, which is our listeners.

00:03:18   Like, we are here, and Jason pointed this out

00:03:21   when we were talking about this with him while working on this letter, right?

00:03:24   Like, Relay FM is here because of you, the listener,

00:03:28   and the strong connection that we have with you.

00:03:31   So we want to continue to put more focus on providing

00:03:34   an even better experience for those of you who decide to support us directly.

00:03:38   Basically, if you not only decide to support us with your time,

00:03:41   but also your hard-earned money,

00:03:43   we want to be able to give you more for that.

00:03:47   And we're working on lots of really great ideas.

00:03:49   Like, I am actually very excited about this.

00:03:52   We started late today because me and Steven --

00:03:54   we have a call on Mondays, which I always have before recording Upgrade,

00:03:58   and we were late today because we were work --

00:04:00   I was late for Upgrade today because we were working on some great stuff.

00:04:03   And Steven, my co-founder, made the point

00:04:06   that we haven't worked as hard or as, like, frenzied right now

00:04:11   as we have since the beginning.

00:04:13   But it's great.

00:04:14   Like, I feel a renewed sense of excitement

00:04:17   for what Relay FM can be because of this.

00:04:20   Like, this doesn't have to be a bad thing because the world's changing around us.

00:04:24   Like, we're going to use this as a time to make everything better.

00:04:28   Like, that's the plan.

00:04:29   So the first step of our renewed membership focus

00:04:35   is we have created a Discord server for Relay FM members.

00:04:38   This is a private community where like-minded people can come together

00:04:41   in a safe, moderated environment to talk about the things that they love

00:04:45   and to make connections with other people like them.

00:04:47   So right now, we are streaming this show live, as we always do,

00:04:52   at 9 a.m. Pacific, noon Eastern, every Monday.

00:04:57   And we have a live chat.

00:04:59   And now the live chat is also occurring in the Discord.

00:05:02   And that's where I'm looking at it.

00:05:03   But there are lots of wonderful topics to talk about and hundreds --

00:05:07   we have nearly 1,000 people in there already.

00:05:10   So if you are a Relay FM member, you should have gotten an email about this.

00:05:15   So all existing Relay FM members, look out for an email,

00:05:19   or you can contact us if you need to.

00:05:21   But basically, everyone who is a member can get access to the Discord server.

00:05:26   If you become a member, you'll get an email about it when you sign up

00:05:29   so you can join.

00:05:31   Basically, we want to create something which is fun and moderated.

00:05:34   That's why we use Discord over Slack.

00:05:36   Slack has no moderation tools at all.

00:05:39   Right, because it's a workplace tool.

00:05:40   You're not supposed to mute or ban people in your office.

00:05:45   I've spoken for years.

00:05:46   People have asked us for years about having a community.

00:05:50   And when we were first launching the membership,

00:05:54   I wasn't comfortable with the tools out there.

00:05:55   Discord then didn't have as great tools as it has now.

00:06:00   And basically, that's the reason, because Discord realized,

00:06:02   I assume, we can't compete with Slack.

00:06:04   Let's make a product which is similar but focuses in different areas.

00:06:08   And they've really focused on having communities.

00:06:11   So we have a team of wonderful moderators there.

00:06:13   And we're building something I'm super excited about.

00:06:17   It has been a wonderful weekend.

00:06:18   We launched this on Friday.

00:06:19   And it's been amazing to watch this thing grow.

00:06:21   So it would mean a lot to us if you signed up to become a Relay FM member.

00:06:26   Especially, I will speak for me and Jason,

00:06:28   if you choose to support upgrade with that membership.

00:06:30   There is a link in the show notes to do so.

00:06:32   You can just click that.

00:06:33   You support upgrade.

00:06:34   You give us some money every month.

00:06:36   You get a bunch of great benefits.

00:06:38   And now, access to the Relay FM Discord server.

00:06:41   Or you can go to relay.fm/membership to learn more.

00:06:45   Thank you for this time, I will say.

00:06:47   Yeah.

00:06:48   Yeah.

00:06:48   And we do some extra stuff during the year and our planning,

00:06:53   what we're going to be doing next.

00:06:55   So you get some podcasty kind of bonuses to listen to,

00:06:58   as well as the community.

00:06:59   And I've had little communities for Six Colors members

00:07:03   and incomparable members for the last couple of years.

00:07:06   And those have actually turned out to be pretty great spaces.

00:07:09   And the Relay Discord is looking like it's going to be that, too.

00:07:12   Yeah.

00:07:13   Very, very, very happy with it so far.

00:07:17   Should we do some more follow-up, follow-out, Jason?

00:07:20   Yeah.

00:07:20   I mean, this is the time for it.

00:07:22   If we don't do it now, they're not going to let us--

00:07:24   The podcast police aren't going to let us do it later.

00:07:27   I know that you wanted--

00:07:28   that you put in here that there was a great interview on App

00:07:31   Stories with Craig Federighi joining Federico.

00:07:35   Federighi, Federico part two.

00:07:38   They spoke last year at WWDC, but now they

00:07:40   spoke prior to WWDC.

00:07:42   And the focus of the interview was about the cursor support

00:07:46   in iPad OS.

00:07:49   Yeah, it's the--

00:07:51   I like this interview.

00:07:52   And what I was thinking while I was listening to it is,

00:07:56   you know, there is a group of us who write or talk

00:07:58   about these issues.

00:08:00   And we spend all our time thinking about issues

00:08:02   involving Apple and products and their product philosophy

00:08:05   and stuff like that.

00:08:06   Federico and I talk about iPad keyboards and mice

00:08:11   and things like that and back and forth.

00:08:13   And there's a group of us.

00:08:14   But the thing is, there is this other group

00:08:17   of people who spend all their time thinking about this.

00:08:20   And they never talk about it except amongst themselves.

00:08:23   And we never get to talk to them.

00:08:24   And that's the people who make this stuff at Apple.

00:08:27   And they do carefully consider-- a lot of the same things

00:08:30   we're talking about, they talk about and consider.

00:08:32   And so this is a great breaking of that wall

00:08:35   where Federico and Craig got to talk to each other.

00:08:39   And it's very clear from that conversation

00:08:41   just how much they considered all these issues before making

00:08:47   their decisions.

00:08:48   And I think that not only is it fun to see that interaction,

00:08:51   but it's also a reminder that it's

00:08:55   really easy to see Apple do something and say,

00:08:57   I can't believe they didn't think of,

00:08:58   or this is so lazy, or whatever.

00:09:01   And that is almost never the case.

00:09:04   It's more that they made a decision you disagreed with,

00:09:07   and they have their reasons, or because

00:09:09   some other circumstances going on.

00:09:11   But it's hard to listen to Craig Federighi

00:09:13   and not get the sense that there are

00:09:14   a lot of people at Apple who are very carefully considering

00:09:18   all of the issues involved in doing something like adding

00:09:21   a pointer to iPad OS.

00:09:25   Yeah, and I really like what you said there about there

00:09:28   are people that are thinking about this so much

00:09:30   because they're making it.

00:09:31   And it can be very helpful to just hear these people talk

00:09:37   about their thought processes that lead them to this.

00:09:41   Or also, things like-- I really liked the conversation

00:09:45   they were having about how the trackpad could change Pro Apps.

00:09:51   And Federighi was talking about the fact that, yes, maybe,

00:09:54   but they want all apps to be considered to be usable

00:09:58   in every mode.

00:10:00   They don't want Photoshop to have such tiny icons that only

00:10:05   the cursor can use them.

00:10:07   And so it was useful to hear that because there

00:10:11   may have been some people that were starting to potentially go

00:10:13   off on a road like, oh, I'm going

00:10:15   to make an app that's just for cursor support.

00:10:17   It's like, don't do that.

00:10:19   You should make an application that's useful in all modes.

00:10:23   Maybe it works better in one or the other,

00:10:25   but should be usable everywhere.

00:10:28   Yeah, no, it's a great conversation

00:10:32   that what I really liked about it

00:10:34   is it reflected a lot of the stuff

00:10:36   that we've kind of reverse engineered out here

00:10:38   on the outside about the iPad as a flexible thing.

00:10:41   And it's touch first, but you have to have these other modes.

00:10:43   And that's one of the values of it is you

00:10:44   can mode shift and all that.

00:10:46   And so to hear Craig Federighi talk about it, it's like, yes,

00:10:48   OK.

00:10:49   It's like, they thought about it.

00:10:50   We thought about it.

00:10:51   We're thinking the same things.

00:10:54   It's reassuring in some way that these things

00:10:56   are happening in parallel because it means that our read

00:10:58   on it about how this product is being used

00:11:01   and how we're using it-- because all we can base it on

00:11:04   is what the product is and how we use it

00:11:05   and our desires for it.

00:11:07   And they, on the inside, have the ability to steer it,

00:11:11   but they have to have those discussions about where

00:11:13   they want to steer it and what is their guiding philosophy.

00:11:15   And I was encouraged by the fact that it seems

00:11:17   that Apple views the iPad, at least based

00:11:21   on Federighi's comments, in a very similar way to the way

00:11:25   that people like me and Federico view it, which is good.

00:11:30   Take your minds back to October 2018.

00:11:38   Oh, no.

00:11:40   Good time.

00:11:40   We were outside.

00:11:42   What I liked about the--

00:11:43   I just opened the link here to add it to the show notes.

00:11:46   And the beginning of the description

00:11:47   for the episode of Upgrade that we're about to refer to,

00:11:49   213, was this week Jason and Myke discussed where the iPad

00:11:53   Pro might go next, including whether it's

00:11:55   a primarily horizontal or vertical device

00:11:58   and if adding a USB-C port makes sense.

00:12:00   The answer is yes to all of that.

00:12:02   I'm just going to assume that we were

00:12:03   very prophetic in that episode.

00:12:05   I'm sure.

00:12:06   But the most important thing that happened in that episode

00:12:08   is that I told the story about not getting

00:12:11   a bunch of stuff from Ikea for my outdoor furniture.

00:12:14   Which is similar in its idea to the Drobo discussion

00:12:19   last week.

00:12:20   Yeah, it was.

00:12:21   In that I got to start talking and you

00:12:23   got to go pour yourself a cup of tea.

00:12:25   I'm always here, Jason.

00:12:27   I never leave.

00:12:28   Sweep the floors and just do whatever else you need to do.

00:12:31   And I'm listening and I'm pondering.

00:12:33   Never leave.

00:12:34   This makes it sound like I do leave.

00:12:35   I literally never leave.

00:12:37   All right.

00:12:37   OK.

00:12:39   You can kick back.

00:12:40   Yeah, I knock my chair down.

00:12:42   You've got the height adjustment, the angle adjustment,

00:12:44   and lock that down a couple of points so I can lean back

00:12:47   and just go for it.

00:12:48   Yeah, it's like the chair equivalent of loosening a tie.

00:12:50   Yes, exactly.

00:12:51   You're like, I'm going to settle in here for this story.

00:12:54   So go listen to episode 213.

00:12:56   If you haven't, you can hear us talk about the iPad Pro.

00:12:59   Maybe we were right, maybe we were wrong.

00:13:01   And you can also hear about my adventure with Ikea

00:13:03   where I didn't get all the cushions for this.

00:13:05   And the people told me I could go online, people at the store,

00:13:10   and fill the rest of my order, which turned out

00:13:13   to be a horrible lie.

00:13:14   And so I had furniture that didn't have cushions on it

00:13:18   or was missing cushions.

00:13:19   And in the end, it all worked out in the sense

00:13:22   that a listener in Norway found the cushion covers--

00:13:27   because I had the cushions but not the covers for them.

00:13:30   And I sent him money, and he sent me

00:13:32   Norwegian Ikea cushion covers.

00:13:35   The best ones.

00:13:36   In all of this, I got a $10 credit from Ikea

00:13:39   for them apologizing for the fact that they took my order

00:13:41   and claimed that it was about to ship,

00:13:43   and it spent an entire summer not shipping because they

00:13:45   didn't actually have it.

00:13:49   And it turns out I was still short one pillow and one cover

00:13:52   from 2018.

00:13:54   I didn't buy enough of the pillows, of the cushions.

00:13:57   So last year I went by, and I just

00:13:59   forgot and never bothered to check.

00:14:01   But this year, I thought, oh, let's see if a Frozon--

00:14:06   because this was FrozonQuest 2018--

00:14:09   if a Frozon cover and a Dovholman cushion

00:14:15   are available on Ikea.com.

00:14:17   Because we're locked down, I'm not going to go to my local Ikea.

00:14:19   And they were.

00:14:20   And I ordered them.

00:14:21   And I found in my email the gift card code from Ikea

00:14:25   from FrozonQuest 2018.

00:14:28   And I placed an order.

00:14:29   And that was April.

00:14:33   It showed up yesterday.

00:14:35   Two boxes with the Frozon and the Dovholman.

00:14:40   And so now I have a slightly darker final piece

00:14:45   of the puzzle cushion.

00:14:46   Slightly darker because the other ones

00:14:48   have faded in the sunlight in the ensuing year.

00:14:50   But I'm at full power with my backyard furniture.

00:14:55   And I thought everybody should know.

00:14:57   So there you go, FrozonQuest 2020.

00:14:59   Not as exciting.

00:15:00   I placed an order.

00:15:01   And it showed up.

00:15:03   Yeah, it's not really so much of a quest, really.

00:15:05   It's just Frozon expected 2020.

00:15:08   Yeah, I mean, to be fair, Ikea has nothing else to do right now

00:15:11   than fulfill online orders.

00:15:12   But they did.

00:15:14   You said that, though, but they're still not very good at it.

00:15:16   I've received similar credit.

00:15:18   I've received similar credit in the past.

00:15:19   Not recently.

00:15:21   Not recently.

00:15:22   No, they're terrible at it.

00:15:24   And I'm not going to go into the details other than to say that--

00:15:27   I mean, I did wait a month with minimal--

00:15:31   we're so used to-- this was the point of FrozonQuest 2018.

00:15:33   We're so used to Amazon telling you every step of the process.

00:15:36   And I think that's up the game for a lot of e-commerce vendors.

00:15:39   Ikea still got it.

00:15:41   And then there's just silence.

00:15:42   And then a month passes, and you get an email that says,

00:15:45   shipped it.

00:15:46   And that's it.

00:15:47   That's all they do.

00:15:49   So that month of silence passed.

00:15:51   But to their credit, they actually

00:15:53   had the thing they claimed they had,

00:15:54   and they shipped it to me.

00:15:55   And now I have it.

00:15:56   So no Norwegian imports required this time.

00:16:00   Wonderful.

00:16:02   We can entertain in our backyard now.

00:16:04   Oh.

00:16:04   Oh, no.

00:16:05   I have one other tale, a miniature tale of woe

00:16:10   to share with you.

00:16:12   So I bought the iPhone X, as we all did in the fall of 2017.

00:16:17   Remember, it came out after the iPhone 8, but it came out.

00:16:19   And we placed our orders.

00:16:20   And I believe I actually placed my order on the East Coast.

00:16:25   So I had to get up at 5 AM or whatever.

00:16:28   Or at 8 AM, no, it was the luxury.

00:16:30   Or no, it was stay up till 3 AM.

00:16:31   That's what it was back then.

00:16:32   I was punished for being on the East Coast.

00:16:34   And all the East Coasters laughed at me and said,

00:16:36   see what it's like?

00:16:37   And then they changed it so it's 5 AM Pacific,

00:16:39   so I get to see how it's like every time.

00:16:40   Anyway, this weekend-- so I rolled that down.

00:16:45   I have-- I bought an 11 Pro.

00:16:48   So my wife has the 10 that I bought.

00:16:52   And so she and my daughter left the area for the first time

00:16:59   in nine weeks to go pick up my daughter's stuff, which is

00:17:04   still sitting in her dorm room.

00:17:06   We had a deadline of you need out.

00:17:08   And it's about an eight-hour drive up there.

00:17:12   So they drove up there eight hours, went to the dorm,

00:17:15   packed up the stuff, slept, moved the stuff to the car,

00:17:18   and came home.

00:17:19   It was a whole operation.

00:17:21   On the drive up, literally the first time

00:17:24   she's been away from home at any length for all this time,

00:17:31   she notices that the screen has basically

00:17:34   popped out of the iPhone.

00:17:36   And apparently, the battery in the iPhone 10 swelled.

00:17:39   It did one of those things like a star that's

00:17:42   going to go supernova, where it's just like,

00:17:44   I'm going to just start getting big.

00:17:46   I'm going to puff up big.

00:17:47   It's Liftoff Podcast.

00:17:49   Read all-- here, listen all about Supernovas

00:17:51   on the Liftoff Podcast.

00:17:54   It's bad.

00:17:55   It's bad, right?

00:17:56   And what the timing of it--

00:17:57   literally any other day in the last eight weeks,

00:17:59   it would be fine.

00:18:00   But she's driving away from home.

00:18:03   So my daughter's got her phone because she's 18.

00:18:06   So she's got a phone.

00:18:07   It's fine.

00:18:07   So what do I do?

00:18:11   Well, I've got--

00:18:14   I can't help her, right?

00:18:15   She's like, what do we do?

00:18:16   I'm like, nothing.

00:18:17   I can't-- there's no buttons to push

00:18:20   to make the battery deflate.

00:18:21   It just is broken now.

00:18:23   So I did get ahead on the replacement.

00:18:26   So I went to Apple.

00:18:28   I actually did their text support.

00:18:30   Oh, right, the business shop.

00:18:33   No, this was like their web interface.

00:18:34   Oh, OK.

00:18:35   The worst one.

00:18:36   Yeah, yeah.

00:18:37   The worst one, yeah, the worst one.

00:18:40   And they wanted the serial number and the IMEI number,

00:18:42   which I was able to look up on appleid.apple.com,

00:18:45   which lists all of the phones that are logged in

00:18:47   with a particular ID.

00:18:48   They needed me to erase the phone

00:18:52   and delete it from my account in order to do--

00:18:56   basically turn off Find My because they want that off.

00:18:59   And of course, the phone wasn't with me,

00:19:01   but I was able to do that remotely.

00:19:04   And then they asked me if I wanted to bring it into a store.

00:19:07   And I said, those stores aren't open.

00:19:11   They're like, ah, yes.

00:19:13   We have no way to tell when stores will be open.

00:19:16   So you can just mail it.

00:19:17   We'll send you a box and you can mail it in.

00:19:18   I'm like, all right.

00:19:19   So they're apparently sending me a box.

00:19:21   And they said, we'll send you an email

00:19:22   with details about payment,

00:19:24   which I thought was interesting, a way of phrasing it.

00:19:26   Like, they're not going to make me pay on the text chat.

00:19:29   They won't tell me what I need to pay.

00:19:31   And I'm sitting there thinking, why am I paying?

00:19:33   This seems like a really bad battery problem

00:19:36   that I know it's out of warranty.

00:19:38   It's a two-plus-year-old phone, two-and-a-half-year-old phone,

00:19:40   but your battery should probably not explode like this.

00:19:43   Well, it's dangerous.

00:19:44   Yeah, it is dangerous.

00:19:45   It's created like an explosive device

00:19:47   that is just being driven around California.

00:19:49   Exactly.

00:19:49   Not too explosive because they're willing

00:19:51   to have me put it in a box and put it through the mail.

00:19:53   But still, it makes me uneasy.

00:19:55   Anyway, it doesn't matter because I got the email

00:19:57   like an hour later and it said, basically,

00:20:00   you don't have to pay for this.

00:20:02   Just put it in the box and we'll...

00:20:04   So, you know, anyway, it's funny

00:20:05   'cause that two-and-a-half years since I bought that iPhone

00:20:09   and one day it just decided to,

00:20:12   its battery just decided to swell and expand.

00:20:14   I'm intrigued to see what that box looks like

00:20:16   that they send you.

00:20:18   Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

00:20:21   I'm sure people who've done mail repairs

00:20:25   have seen this before, but it's, yeah,

00:20:27   it's gonna be an empty box with padding probably

00:20:30   and a label that you stick on the, and it's resealable,

00:20:33   and a label you stick on the outside

00:20:34   and then give it to your UPS guy when he comes by

00:20:38   and he takes it away.

00:20:39   We'll see, I'll keep you updated.

00:20:41   But it was just the timing of it

00:20:42   and the fact that a relatively young iPhone had this battery.

00:20:47   I've had this in laptops before,

00:20:48   but I've never seen it in an iOS device before.

00:20:51   Yeah, it's not good, not good.

00:20:55   Don't like that, don't like battery swelling.

00:20:57   That's not my favorite.

00:20:58   No, it's really disturbing.

00:21:00   And of course, they're in the middle of a long drive

00:21:01   and I'm like, well, I hope it doesn't,

00:21:03   if it explodes, roll down the window.

00:21:05   It catches fire, roll down the window

00:21:06   and throw it out of the car, I guess.

00:21:08   But like, yeah.

00:21:12   - And they'll be easier to return then.

00:21:14   Be a burnt out star at that point.

00:21:16   - They did start asking me as a part of this,

00:21:18   like, is there any water damage?

00:21:20   Actually, the first question was, is it damaged in any way?

00:21:22   And I said, well, the screen got pushed out

00:21:24   by the swelling battery.

00:21:25   And they're like, other than that, I'm like, no.

00:21:27   And then they specifically asked, is there water damage?

00:21:29   I said, no.

00:21:31   Like, all right.

00:21:31   So I sent you a picture of the swollen battery.

00:21:35   Like, all right, okay, it's gonna be okay.

00:21:37   What the time, any, literally any other day

00:21:41   out of the last nine weeks.

00:21:43   - Maybe that's what it was, you know,

00:21:44   it's just like oxygen or something.

00:21:46   - I was thinking, you know, what is it like,

00:21:48   it left home and it had to use the battery.

00:21:52   You know, although they're in the car

00:21:53   with a charger and all that, I don't know.

00:21:54   I don't know what did it, it's just bad luck.

00:21:57   - This episode is brought to you by DoorDash

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00:23:33   Should we do some upstream headlines?

00:23:35   I've got a few for you.

00:23:37   Okay, Apple's been doing more content deals.

00:23:40   So they have three.

00:23:41   They have a two year content deal with Annie Weissman,

00:23:45   a Weissman, I'm not sure which one it is,

00:23:46   but Weissman worked on Desperate Housewives

00:23:49   and is also the creator of the upcoming TV+ show Physical.

00:23:53   So Weissman has been working with Apple already

00:23:57   and there's actually a couple of these

00:23:59   and it's like, oh, now we'll just sign you up

00:24:00   for a few years.

00:24:02   Another one of these is Kerry Aaron,

00:24:04   who is the showrunner for The Morning Show.

00:24:07   Aaron has also signed a multi-year overall content deal

00:24:10   with Apple, so that's like locking up some more people

00:24:14   that they've worked with, they think they're great,

00:24:15   so it's like, all right, you're gonna stick around.

00:24:18   Apple have also hired Alison Kirkham,

00:24:20   who is the quote unquote factual controller at the BBC,

00:24:25   which is a very strange way to say that Kirkham

00:24:28   was in charge of commissioning documentaries.

00:24:31   - So did she battle the forces of confusion and delay?

00:24:35   Was that what she was doing on the railroad?

00:24:37   - Possibly, I mean, but factual controller,

00:24:41   this is the thing about--

00:24:41   - It's the fact controller, the fact controller,

00:24:44   Sir Topham Hatt.

00:24:44   - No, no, it's Sir Topham Hatt.

00:24:46   - Topham Hatt, you are causing confusion and delay.

00:24:50   - Factual controller, like this is one of those phrases

00:24:53   that shows how old the BBC is, right?

00:24:55   And they just never changed the name.

00:24:58   It's such a strange way of saying like documentary commissioner

00:25:01   but factual controller, this factual controller

00:25:06   has now moved to Apple instead,

00:25:09   which I guess is just key to say that Apple wants to do

00:25:12   more documentaries and like nonfiction, I guess.

00:25:17   - Do we have a title for her?

00:25:20   Is she gonna be the factual controller at Apple?

00:25:23   - From everything that I've read, there isn't like--

00:25:26   - There doesn't have a title.

00:25:28   But like we'll be working on that type of content, right?

00:25:33   Like she's gonna be joining the global team at Apple TV Plus

00:25:38   and we'll be reporting into the European director.

00:25:42   But basically it's going to be

00:25:44   unscripted original series of films.

00:25:46   - All right, okay.

00:25:47   And people can tune into that B-side episode

00:25:50   that we'll put a link to in the show notes

00:25:52   where we discussed in detail the history and naming

00:25:55   and family of Sir Topham Hatt from Tom Hanks.

00:25:57   - That's four minutes of fun.

00:25:59   - From 2015, can you believe that?

00:26:01   - We're really just reaching into the archives today.

00:26:05   - We are, this is a retrospective episode

00:26:07   as we move toward episode 300.

00:26:10   - The Oscars is being forced to adapt

00:26:12   as much as it can possibly resist at the same time.

00:26:15   So because movie theaters are closed,

00:26:17   Oscars consideration this year will consider movies

00:26:21   that haven't played in theaters,

00:26:23   but that movie must prove that it had a planned

00:26:28   theatrical release.

00:26:30   So there you go.

00:26:31   It's just like drag, like just being dragged,

00:26:34   kicking and screaming the film industry into the future.

00:26:38   But that's how they're gonna deal

00:26:39   with the Oscars this year.

00:26:40   I'm expecting there will be no Oscars as well, right?

00:26:44   I don't know how they're gonna deal with that part yet.

00:26:46   Like there's not gonna be a event.

00:26:49   - Like, yeah, I don't know, there might be,

00:26:51   but it may be a limited,

00:26:54   we'll see who knows what the world's gonna look like

00:26:56   next March, right?

00:26:57   We have no idea, but it's possible

00:26:58   that they will have a socially distant Oscars

00:27:03   to honor the eight movies that came out last year, right?

00:27:06   - The three movies that made it into cinemas.

00:27:10   - That's right.

00:27:11   - The Oscars in 2021 are gonna be the fun part, right?

00:27:15   It's gonna be like people's home movies.

00:27:17   There's gonna be no movies, there's no movies.

00:27:20   - It's TikToks, mostly it's TikToks.

00:27:22   (laughing)

00:27:24   - All right, let's talk about Apple and COVID-19.

00:27:27   They have awarded $10 million

00:27:29   to a company called Copan Diagnostics.

00:27:32   This money has come from their Advanced Manufacturing Fund,

00:27:36   which if that rings a bell,

00:27:37   it is the same fund that they gave a bunch of money

00:27:40   to Corning, the glass, the Gorilla Glass people.

00:27:43   So basically Apple set up a fund

00:27:46   that they were gonna be giving to companies

00:27:48   to help them with their manufacturing.

00:27:51   And also, like I mean, in the case of Corning,

00:27:54   Apple would also significantly benefit from that arrangement

00:27:58   like Corning make the glass

00:27:59   that goes on the front of their iPhones.

00:28:01   Now this one is obviously,

00:28:03   I think a little bit more altruistic

00:28:05   because Copan Diagnostics, their whole thing

00:28:08   is to work on sample collection kits in the US.

00:28:11   So basically for testing, right?

00:28:14   They create testing materials, like medical testing.

00:28:19   So obviously this is gonna be used for,

00:28:21   and Copan stuff is already being used

00:28:23   for coronavirus testing,

00:28:26   but Apple is going to be able to help them ramp up

00:28:28   from producing thousands of kits a week

00:28:30   to over a million a week by July,

00:28:33   which is a very, very steep curve.

00:28:36   I wanna give a quote from the press release.

00:28:38   Apple is sourcing equipment and materials

00:28:40   for Copan Diagnostics from companies across the US

00:28:43   and then including equipment

00:28:45   that Apple is helping design as well.

00:28:48   I read an article from John Grubin

00:28:50   linked to this during Fireball

00:28:52   and basically pointed out that

00:28:53   possibly the operational assistance from Apple

00:28:56   is worth more than the $10 million really, right?

00:29:00   - Interesting.

00:29:01   - So this is, if we remember,

00:29:03   Cast Our Minds back a few weeks ago

00:29:05   to when Tim Cook said that Apple would do the things

00:29:08   that it's best at,

00:29:09   this is probably one of those things, right?

00:29:11   Like they can help here,

00:29:13   by helping a company that is needed for testing

00:29:16   ramp up their production

00:29:18   because Apple knows how to produce stuff.

00:29:21   - Yeah, it's an interesting one

00:29:25   and I do keep coming back to,

00:29:26   there is some altruism in it,

00:29:29   there is some positive PR in it.

00:29:31   I do wonder if there is also some angle,

00:29:36   I mean, 'cause Apple wants to do good,

00:29:39   but Apple is also a huge profit-driven corporation.

00:29:42   My gut feeling is that this,

00:29:45   Apple wants to be a major player in health, right?

00:29:50   The Apple Watch has led them to be very interested

00:29:53   in being a major player in health

00:29:55   and pushing technology and their technology

00:29:59   into the health industry

00:30:00   in order, they will say to improve people's health, right?

00:30:03   And the Apple Watch has been very successful at that.

00:30:06   And I wonder if that's also part of this

00:30:08   is being a good member of the health industry

00:30:12   means doing things like this.

00:30:14   - And I'll be honest,

00:30:14   I haven't looked into Copan enough

00:30:17   to know if they have other arms at their business

00:30:19   that would be more helpful to Apple.

00:30:22   But the main thing that they seem to be known for

00:30:24   is their physical testing abilities.

00:30:27   But you're right, it might be that either A,

00:30:29   there's something about that company

00:30:30   that can be useful for the future

00:30:32   or B, that they want to be seen

00:30:34   in the global health community

00:30:36   as a company that can be trusted,

00:30:39   a company that is serious.

00:30:40   - And as a leader.

00:30:41   - Yeah, and as a leader, very good point.

00:30:44   There is still a lot of uncertainty

00:30:45   around the exposure notification API adoption.

00:30:48   So this is contact tracing.

00:30:50   I don't want to get into all of this,

00:30:53   but basically to say there are many countries

00:30:56   that agree it's an approach that they may consider,

00:30:57   Apple and Google's joint effort.

00:30:59   There are countries pushing ahead with their own options,

00:31:02   just completely ignoring it.

00:31:04   Some of these countries like my own say,

00:31:07   or there are reports that they're looking

00:31:10   to switching to Apple system anyway,

00:31:11   even though they're developing their own system,

00:31:13   they're like feasibility studies being done.

00:31:16   And there are some countries like Germany

00:31:18   that have already adopted Apple's approach

00:31:20   and have an app in development,

00:31:22   and they're gonna be pushing it out

00:31:23   as soon as it's available.

00:31:25   One of the things that I have learned,

00:31:27   looking into just this stuff today, really,

00:31:30   I mean, I've been paying attention to it,

00:31:31   but just reading the links I'm putting in the show notes

00:31:34   is that there's a lot of politics wrapped up in this.

00:31:38   - Oh yeah.

00:31:38   - And I think we're gonna have to see how this fares

00:31:42   over the next few months.

00:31:43   My read on this is a lot of the countries,

00:31:46   including my own right now that are saying

00:31:47   they're gonna do their own thing, will change course.

00:31:51   And I expect it's going to be at the second stage of the API

00:31:54   when it's built into the operating system.

00:31:56   Right, if you remember, there's the first stage,

00:31:59   which is you have to have an app,

00:32:00   and then the API will be able to talk with the app,

00:32:03   and then the apps can exchange their identifiers.

00:32:06   And then there is the second stage

00:32:07   where the identifiers are being drawn anyway,

00:32:10   and then you can download an app later

00:32:12   and put in your symptoms and say that you've been tested

00:32:15   or whatever, and then it can retroactively alert people.

00:32:18   Right, there's this two-stage approach.

00:32:21   So I expect that by that second stage,

00:32:24   I would really expect most countries

00:32:28   to have moved to the Apple Google system

00:32:31   because there are going to be significant issues

00:32:35   with any application that is trying to do this

00:32:40   Bluetooth exchange stuff

00:32:42   without Apple and Google's blessing.

00:32:44   And the UK government is saying a lot of interesting things

00:32:48   about the way that their app's going to work

00:32:50   in ways that seem to be counter to how I believe iOS works.

00:32:55   So we're gonna have to wait and see about all of that.

00:32:59   But yeah, I think that this is still a really moving thing.

00:33:04   It is in a lot of flux.

00:33:05   I mean, and honestly, if you think, as of right now,

00:33:09   the first stage of this

00:33:10   is not even publicly available anyway.

00:33:12   So- - Right.

00:33:13   They're beta testing it.

00:33:15   It'll be out soon, the first stage.

00:33:17   But yeah, there'll be another update

00:33:19   that has to happen after that for it to be at the OS level.

00:33:23   And yeah, I saw a note this week

00:33:28   that made me scratch my head a little bit

00:33:29   where somebody said, "Apple and Google's effort here

00:33:33   is an attempt to impose American values

00:33:35   on the rest of the world."

00:33:37   Those values being privacy and security.

00:33:42   And their argument was,

00:33:44   "Look, if the government wants to know everything about you

00:33:46   and where you go and what you do

00:33:48   in the middle of a public health crisis,

00:33:50   you should just give it to them."

00:33:51   And as an American, I think, "Hmm, no."

00:33:54   But yes, you're right.

00:33:55   In a way, they are imposing American values

00:33:57   over other cultures and countries that might have values

00:34:01   that don't include the privacy of their people.

00:34:04   But the truth is that they are also imposing

00:34:08   their corporate values.

00:34:11   And I guess I would say this is one of those cases

00:34:15   where I'm glad that the companies

00:34:17   that run the dominant smartphone platforms on the world

00:34:21   care about this stuff.

00:34:23   They care enough that they wanna build a system

00:34:26   that does both contact tracing data,

00:34:29   background data for contract tracers,

00:34:32   and keep it private and not make it a surveillance tool.

00:34:37   But I can see the other side, which is,

00:34:41   "But it's a crisis, make it a surveillance tool."

00:34:45   And my point here is that,

00:34:48   although I found that statement bizarre,

00:34:50   although accurate in a way, right?

00:34:54   That it is sort of one of our values, I think,

00:34:57   of a lot of countries, not just America, to say,

00:35:00   "Oh, people have rights and should have a right to privacy,

00:35:04   but even in a health crisis,

00:35:06   but we also need to solve the health crisis."

00:35:08   But it shows you just how much politics,

00:35:13   and it's individual politics,

00:35:14   like the reason the UK is doing what it's doing

00:35:16   has a lot to do with the dynamics in the UK and UK politics.

00:35:20   The reason the US is doing what it's doing,

00:35:21   or not doing as the case may be,

00:35:24   has a lot to do with internal politics.

00:35:26   So that's the other challenge with a global threat like this,

00:35:29   is that everybody's reacting differently to it,

00:35:31   and that includes their reactions to Google and Apple.

00:35:34   - And I understand, it is difficult,

00:35:37   and I'm sure it's very difficult as world leaders

00:35:40   to accept Tim Cook and Sundar Pichai

00:35:42   to tell them what to do, right?

00:35:44   It's counter to everything that they have believed in

00:35:47   leading up to the point that they became the politicians

00:35:49   that they are, right?

00:35:50   That no corporation's going to tell a country what to do.

00:35:55   But I mean, I think we both agree

00:35:58   that it's probably the better way to do it.

00:36:01   At least it's the way I feel more comfortable with.

00:36:03   I don't feel completely comfortable

00:36:05   with the government running this system.

00:36:09   - Well, first off, yes, I actually trust the tech companies

00:36:13   to build a system fast over a giant government bureaucracy.

00:36:18   But also, it's not an either/or proposition,

00:36:21   and that's part of what bugs me

00:36:22   about some of these debates about this,

00:36:24   is Apple and Google want to do something

00:36:25   that gives everybody useful data and is private.

00:36:28   It's not, and you get the sense,

00:36:31   okay, maybe I'm projecting here,

00:36:32   but I get the sense that some of the people

00:36:33   who are arguing for expediency don't really mean it

00:36:37   because they're making this kind of false case,

00:36:40   this false choice, which is, well, you can have privacy

00:36:44   or you could have public health, and you have to choose.

00:36:46   And what I appreciate about the approach

00:36:48   Apple and Google has taken is that they're trying to say,

00:36:50   and it may not be the right approach,

00:36:53   and there may be technical details that are problematic,

00:36:55   and we'll see how they roll it out,

00:36:56   but what they're trying to do is say, you can do both.

00:37:00   We can keep it private

00:37:02   and help it contribute to public health,

00:37:04   and you don't need to turn into a surveillance state

00:37:07   where every single phone is tracking everybody's location

00:37:10   and everybody they interact with

00:37:12   in order to protect the public health.

00:37:14   And I appreciate that because I don't like the idea

00:37:17   of having to choose between privacy and public health

00:37:20   because that's a very hard decision, right?

00:37:22   And we've seen it in the past.

00:37:24   You give away some of your rights

00:37:25   in order to protect the public good.

00:37:28   I would also argue that if this kind of stuff

00:37:31   is seen as a mass surveillance tool,

00:37:33   you're going to lose a percentage of the population

00:37:35   who will refuse to do it,

00:37:37   at which point it's no longer a public health tool anyway,

00:37:41   because you need a certain percentage.

00:37:42   There were some stories that I read that suggested

00:37:46   that you really need this on the operating system

00:37:48   turned on by default because you need to reach

00:37:51   a very high percentage of people who are using it

00:37:53   for it to have any effect at all that is substantial.

00:37:57   So I appreciate that Apple and Google

00:37:58   are trying to make this both so that somebody who says,

00:38:02   oh, well, you have to choose one or another,

00:38:04   they can't make that argument

00:38:06   because Apple and Google have chosen both.

00:38:08   - Apple have announced WWDC is going to begin June 22nd

00:38:13   and through the week.

00:38:14   - It's a tragedy for upgrade

00:38:16   because that week was going to be episode 300.

00:38:20   We hadn't planned it.

00:38:21   It was just luck.

00:38:21   It's a bounty for connected

00:38:24   because you guys skipped some episodes

00:38:26   and episode 300 will be that week for you guys.

00:38:29   - Yep, I got two chances to win.

00:38:32   - Yeah, you got two tickets.

00:38:34   - I got two tickets.

00:38:35   And so, yeah, I think we're going to be at like episode 303

00:38:39   or something is going to be WWDC week.

00:38:44   We'll obviously be drafting our predictions on June 15th,

00:38:49   which I'm of course extremely excited for.

00:38:51   We don't have any details.

00:38:53   The press release basically just said June 22nd

00:38:56   and they announced the student challenge.

00:38:58   So it was like a student challenge every year

00:39:01   where students would get a free ride to WWDC

00:39:05   if they would complete something.

00:39:07   And I'm pleased to see that they're still doing

00:39:10   something here and it was the thing

00:39:12   that needed to be announced first

00:39:13   because that's the only thing this year

00:39:16   that has to happen in advance.

00:39:18   Nothing else needs to happen.

00:39:19   - I parsed there, I did my little Apple chromatography thing

00:39:23   and I looked at their release

00:39:24   and the two things that struck me were one,

00:39:27   it's a week long event.

00:39:30   It seems like they are going to stick to the concept

00:39:32   of a week long event.

00:39:33   I imagine they're going to have follow ons

00:39:35   throughout the summer,

00:39:36   but that the primary stuff is going to drop that week

00:39:39   and it's going to be this week long event.

00:39:40   And then of course the promise for more information

00:39:44   as we get closer basically,

00:39:46   but that is a little placeholder for Phil Schiller

00:39:48   basically to say, we're going to make more announcements.

00:39:51   We just haven't made them yet.

00:39:52   - Which is great, right?

00:39:54   'Cause we were talking about this,

00:39:56   I think maybe last week or a couple of weeks ago

00:39:58   that they have to announce a date

00:40:01   so people could prepare their lives

00:40:03   because people aren't traveling,

00:40:05   but they do need to free up time to consume and learn

00:40:10   and also to start setting development schedules in place.

00:40:16   Because from now, we have to still assume

00:40:19   that this is coming in September, iOS 14.

00:40:22   But we have to make that assumption.

00:40:23   We can't make any other assumption

00:40:24   until Apple tell us otherwise.

00:40:26   So people need to work out

00:40:30   what their development cycle is going to be.

00:40:32   So they needed to start announcing a date

00:40:33   so people could, I believe,

00:40:34   so people could start working on that.

00:40:36   So I think that's great.

00:40:37   June 22nd, I think this is obviously later in the month

00:40:41   than it would have been.

00:40:43   I feel like it probably would have been

00:40:45   much earlier in the month,

00:40:46   but they could have given themselves some leeway.

00:40:48   Is it the last full week of June?

00:40:51   Yeah, it is.

00:40:52   It's the last full week of June.

00:40:53   So otherwise, it would have moved into July.

00:40:55   And the only other thing I guess we can assume,

00:40:57   even though I haven't been told,

00:40:59   just because logistically,

00:41:00   I don't know how else it would work,

00:41:01   that the keynote will be on the morning of the 22nd.

00:41:04   You can't do anything else.

00:41:06   - That's literally, you have to,

00:41:08   that's what a keynote is.

00:41:09   You got to kick it off.

00:41:10   I imagine that would be exactly what we expect

00:41:12   where there will be a keynote

00:41:13   and there'll probably even be a deep dive OS session

00:41:17   that happens thereafter.

00:41:18   Now, the question is,

00:41:19   when you're not tethered by reality

00:41:21   of people having to get lunches in boxes

00:41:24   and reset the room and all of that,

00:41:26   will they, how much time do they leave between streams?

00:41:30   Are they gonna leave us enough time to record upgrade?

00:41:33   I mean, there's a lot.

00:41:35   - It doesn't matter as much.

00:41:38   Our typical issue with when we record upgrade

00:41:42   was there were physical movements that needed to occur.

00:41:45   They aren't happening this time,

00:41:47   so we'll just record it whenever, right?

00:41:49   Or we have a live show to go to.

00:41:51   We were not doing any of that this year,

00:41:53   so we'll just record it as soon as we can after the keynote.

00:41:56   But the typical constraints that we have

00:42:00   aren't gonna be the same.

00:42:02   - Yeah, we'll see.

00:42:04   I'm excited though.

00:42:05   This is Apple's opportunity to rethink WWDC

00:42:10   and as somebody who's been going for a long time,

00:42:13   it's a fun event, but you're always gonna,

00:42:18   I mean, like being forced to reevaluate it and rethink it

00:42:22   is gonna lead to some cool stuff

00:42:25   that would never have happened

00:42:27   if the circumstances hadn't occurred.

00:42:29   Doesn't mean that the circumstances are good,

00:42:31   but it is challenging Apple in a way

00:42:34   that I think they're gonna do some interesting stuff.

00:42:36   And I do think that it will have a lasting impact

00:42:38   on what we think of as WWDC,

00:42:40   even if there is a real event in the future

00:42:42   and this doesn't go virtual only,

00:42:45   I think that they're gonna rethink it.

00:42:48   And I think we're never gonna go back to an era

00:42:52   where this event is primarily for participants in person

00:42:57   and only sort of secondarily for everyone else.

00:43:00   I think, I feel like from now on,

00:43:03   they really are going to say,

00:43:05   this is a global event that we beam out

00:43:09   and then maybe there's also a physical event,

00:43:12   but we'll see what they do.

00:43:13   I'm excited to see all the,

00:43:14   we have to throw the old playbook out the window.

00:43:16   We used to know sort of exactly what Apple was gonna do

00:43:18   and really we don't know.

00:43:20   So I'm looking forward to it.

00:43:22   - The one thing that I expect to be different

00:43:24   from whatever is the morning announcement, the keynote,

00:43:27   is I expect that the production values will be much higher

00:43:31   because I just expect things to be produced differently.

00:43:35   Like the little video that they did for the Magic Keyboard

00:43:39   was a very high production value video that Craig did.

00:43:42   I expect stuff like that.

00:43:44   When I say higher production values,

00:43:45   it's like more than a person standing on a stage

00:43:48   with slides behind them.

00:43:49   I think it will be more visual than it typically is.

00:43:55   - Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me

00:43:56   if the whole thing is a prerecorded video extravaganza.

00:44:01   - It is not gonna be live.

00:44:03   Why would you have it live?

00:44:04   You have the advantage of prerecording.

00:44:07   - Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is

00:44:09   you could do it plausibly live.

00:44:12   - Live to tape.

00:44:13   - But I don't think they will.

00:44:14   - No, I don't either.

00:44:15   - I think it will be more like the rollout video

00:44:17   that they did for the iPad Pro and the MacBook Air, right?

00:44:22   Where they were at Apple and having a whole like,

00:44:26   look at this, like here's Craig working on the iPad Pro

00:44:31   with Magic Keyboard somewhere in Apple Park, right?

00:44:34   Like I think it will be more like that.

00:44:37   But you know, there's an argument

00:44:40   about like emulating the Apple keynote style

00:44:43   and I'm sure they've had that discussion,

00:44:46   but is it worth it to make it feel comforting

00:44:50   like an Apple keynote or is it better for them

00:44:53   to just blow the doors off of it

00:44:55   and make it something different?

00:44:56   I don't know.

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00:46:15   So we very briefly spoke about

00:46:18   the 13-inch MacBook Pro last week.

00:46:21   - Right. - And obviously,

00:46:24   the main thing that we spoke about, hooray, keyboard, right?

00:46:26   And we all know that.

00:46:27   You've reviewed them now.

00:46:28   There's no surprises, right?

00:46:30   The keyboard is what we wanted it to be.

00:46:31   It's the one we want, so excellent.

00:46:33   - Yeah, that's the thing about it

00:46:35   that is a killer from a writing perspective,

00:46:39   a reviewing perspective,

00:46:40   is the most important feature by far

00:46:42   is a thing we've already talked about twice, right?

00:46:45   Like it's the 16-inch MacBook Pro keyboard.

00:46:47   We talked about it a lot then.

00:46:49   Talked about it again when the MacBook Air got revised

00:46:51   and now here it is on the 13s.

00:46:53   - I mean, we even spoke about it with the iPad Pro, right?

00:46:55   Like we got the magic keyboard there too, right?

00:46:57   It's the keyboard you know and love, right?

00:46:59   - We know what this keyboard is and now it's everywhere,

00:47:02   but then, okay, fine, but it's a new computer.

00:47:04   What about the rest of it?

00:47:06   And the thing that I emphasized,

00:47:07   and it was really funny to hear other people

00:47:10   talking about the same thing last week,

00:47:12   that it's two of them.

00:47:13   And that's my real question

00:47:15   is there's two 13-inch MacBook Pros.

00:47:17   And we treat them like one and we shouldn't

00:47:20   because for a few years now,

00:47:22   there's really been two models with the same name

00:47:24   and it's the two-port version and the four-port version.

00:47:26   The two-port version used to be the Escape

00:47:28   back when it didn't have a touch bar,

00:47:29   but then it got a touch bar.

00:47:31   So really Apple's always differentiated them

00:47:33   as two versus four Thunderbolt ports.

00:47:37   But the truth is like they did update

00:47:40   the two-port one last year a little bit

00:47:42   to give it sort of the new materials keyboard.

00:47:44   And I think they did a little processor update,

00:47:46   but basically it didn't get touched

00:47:48   other than the keyboard this year.

00:47:50   The four-port one got new processors.

00:47:52   It's still just kind of a speed bump,

00:47:54   but they did get some other spec things.

00:47:58   - Well, the graphics, you know,

00:47:59   like the beta graphics are only in the new one, right?

00:48:03   - It's their Intel embedded graphics.

00:48:05   So it's a function of it being a 10th generation Intel.

00:48:08   It's an isolated processor.

00:48:09   So that's why the graphics are better.

00:48:12   And in fact, the focus of that generation

00:48:15   is improved embedded graphics.

00:48:18   So the graphics support gets a lot faster.

00:48:21   The truth is if you're coming from an old MacBook Pro

00:48:24   with the old keyboard

00:48:25   and you've been holding out all this time,

00:48:27   it's gonna be a huge performance jump regardless

00:48:29   because you're getting a modern computer.

00:48:31   But I have some ongoing questions

00:48:34   about the weirdness of that two-port 13-inch,

00:48:39   which is, it just, it feels a little bit strange to me.

00:48:43   And then there's also the issue

00:48:45   that they didn't do a rethink of the whole product

00:48:47   like they did for the 16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:48:51   And that's, other than the fact

00:48:54   that there were some rumors that they were gonna do that

00:48:56   and it didn't happen,

00:48:57   this is a pretty standard speed bump and that's fine,

00:49:00   but it does make you wonder like the 16-inch

00:49:04   got a whole rethink with smaller bezels and a bigger screen

00:49:07   and the better sound system, input and output.

00:49:11   And the 13-inch didn't, not even the four-port model.

00:49:14   And that's, so those are the two beyond the keyboard,

00:49:18   the two kind of overriding things

00:49:19   that I walked away from my review.

00:49:21   I got the four-port one to review.

00:49:23   So the two-port one, which is fine

00:49:25   'cause there's nothing but the keyboard

00:49:26   in the two-port one that was different.

00:49:29   But I think it's the last part of this transition.

00:49:34   The fact that they've gotten the butterfly keyboard

00:49:36   out of all their laptops is the big story here.

00:49:40   But I do still think that this is a weird laptop line

00:49:45   for Apple because they've got this low-end 13.

00:49:51   And I was asking the question last week

00:49:55   and I asked it in my review, why does this product exist?

00:49:58   And I know why it exists.

00:49:59   It exists to hit some price points

00:50:00   that Apple doesn't have for other products.

00:50:02   It is more powerful than the Air, not a lot,

00:50:07   but it is more powerful than the Air

00:50:09   and it has a better cooling system.

00:50:10   And there are reasons you would get it.

00:50:11   Although I kept coming back to the thought

00:50:13   that if you really need a Pro, you should probably,

00:50:17   if you can at all afford it, buy the four-port model.

00:50:20   And if you are price averse,

00:50:23   you probably should just buy an Air.

00:50:25   I'm not sure that two-port model is a great buy

00:50:29   because it's last year's processor update

00:50:32   and appreciably less than the four-port model

00:50:37   in so many ways.

00:50:38   And the Air is so good that it's a really narrow window

00:50:42   for that two-port model.

00:50:44   I get why it's there, but it still also feels

00:50:46   like a function of the original sin of the MacBook escape

00:50:49   of like thinking it was the Air replacement

00:50:52   and it really wasn't and then they brought the Air back.

00:50:55   And it feels to me, I don't know about you, Myke,

00:50:57   but it feels to me a little bit like Apple is doing

00:51:00   kind of like the keeping everything going,

00:51:03   but maybe a change is in the offing, right?

00:51:07   Like if the ARM processor rumors are true,

00:51:09   like why revamp your product line now

00:51:13   when you're gonna revamp your product line in a year?

00:51:16   - And I guess, all right, so let me put a pin in that

00:51:19   in a second so I can come back around to it

00:51:20   from what I was gonna say,

00:51:21   which is that the MacBook Pro branding is a mess right now.

00:51:26   It's a mess because there were three laptops

00:51:30   that are very different,

00:51:32   but they're all named MacBook Pro, right?

00:51:34   The 16-inch MacBook Pro may as well be a different computer.

00:51:37   Like it is as different to the other MacBook Pros,

00:51:40   the MacBook Air is to that, right?

00:51:41   Like they are shared things,

00:51:44   but it's got a completely different internal architecture.

00:51:47   It has a bigger screen for its body, right?

00:51:50   Like that is a modern,

00:51:52   that's the most modern laptop that Apple makes,

00:51:54   but then there's another MacBook Pro

00:51:56   and another MacBook Pro,

00:51:58   and they're all different from each other,

00:52:00   and one of them is closer to the MacBook Air.

00:52:02   And so like the MacBook Pro branding is messed up right now.

00:52:05   So, but that comes back to what you were just saying, right?

00:52:08   Like, well, what if there isn't,

00:52:09   well, we know that the ARM transition is coming.

00:52:11   We don't know where it's gonna start sitting, right?

00:52:13   Like what products are going to be affected?

00:52:17   So you start looking at what's available, right?

00:52:19   And you think to yourself, well,

00:52:21   we all come into round to the idea that,

00:52:23   oh, they'll keep the iMac Pro

00:52:24   because the iMac will become ARM, right?

00:52:27   Like that seems like a possibility.

00:52:29   And then there'll be a laptop.

00:52:30   We expect it to be like a MacBook Air, right?

00:52:34   Like a cheaper laptop.

00:52:36   But what if there's a MacBook Pro that's ARM powered

00:52:39   and it's gonna be different to the 16 inch.

00:52:40   And the reason they updated the 16 inch

00:52:43   is because Apple want to have for their pro customers,

00:52:46   their most powerful machines

00:52:48   and architecture they already know.

00:52:49   So the iMac Pro stays Intel, the Mac Pro stays Intel

00:52:53   and the 16 inch MacBook Pro,

00:52:55   which is always gonna be the most powerful one,

00:52:57   stays Intel.

00:52:58   And that's going to be a longer period of time.

00:53:00   But everything else moves to ARM in 2021.

00:53:04   So if that's the case,

00:53:05   don't blow your new designed MacBook Pro 14 inch

00:53:10   on the Intel chip.

00:53:11   Wait and do it on the ARM chip.

00:53:14   Maybe. - Could be.

00:53:15   Could be, but it does feel like

00:53:18   there are too many products that aren't well differentiated.

00:53:22   - There are too many MacBook Pros

00:53:23   and they're all too different and it's a mess, right?

00:53:26   - Yeah.

00:53:27   Yeah, I think that's right.

00:53:28   I think that's right.

00:53:29   I do wonder about the MacBook Air

00:53:31   only because it's a very popular computer.

00:53:33   And so you would think that an ARM MacBook Air

00:53:35   would make a lot of sense.

00:53:36   I also watched as Apple tried to kill it and failed

00:53:41   and it came back.

00:53:43   You would think that they could make

00:53:44   a thin light MacBook style, 12 inch MacBook style laptop

00:53:48   on ARM and it would be great.

00:53:50   But that laptop didn't sell so well

00:53:54   and they brought the Air back.

00:53:55   And so I'm not sure they're going to do anything

00:53:59   other than keep the Air around,

00:54:00   whether it's ARM or not. - If I'm,

00:54:02   whoever's in charge of this,

00:54:04   my ARM laptop would be MacBook Air.

00:54:06   Because when Apple make the move to ARM,

00:54:10   this isn't like a test.

00:54:12   This is the future, right?

00:54:14   Like they will go into this and they will go into it hard

00:54:18   because they want to move everyone.

00:54:20   So you put, if you're going to really like put all your chips

00:54:24   on the table, you do it to the MacBook Air

00:54:26   'cause it's the machine that sells the most,

00:54:28   assumably, right?

00:54:30   I think, I don't know if we noticed,

00:54:31   but we assume, right, that the MacBook Air

00:54:33   is Apple's best selling Mac probably, right?

00:54:36   It's either that or the MacBook,

00:54:37   or like 13 inch MacBook Pro.

00:54:39   But let's just assume amongst their non-pro customers,

00:54:42   people will buy MacBook Airs, lots of them.

00:54:44   Otherwise, why else is that branding sort of existing?

00:54:46   So if you really want to go heavy,

00:54:50   you put the ARM chip in the MacBook Air

00:54:52   because that's the one everyone's going to keep buying.

00:54:54   So then you can convince your Mac developers to say,

00:54:57   well, you know, you really should support our ARM computers

00:55:00   now because the MacBook Air has it.

00:55:03   And you know how many of your customers use that.

00:55:05   So that might be the idea, right?

00:55:07   Like I think it would be not good to have another laptop

00:55:12   that is the ARM laptop.

00:55:13   I think that's just going to make things super confusing

00:55:17   in a way that was proven with the MacBook's existence,

00:55:20   didn't help anything to have like,

00:55:23   here is our fifth laptop option for you.

00:55:26   And this one has a different chip inside

00:55:28   and you shouldn't have to worry about that.

00:55:30   Like, I don't know if that's a good idea.

00:55:33   I could imagine the MacBook,

00:55:34   like look at this new MacBook Air.

00:55:35   It has 20 hours battery life and it's thinner

00:55:39   and it's lighter and it has a nicer screen.

00:55:42   And you know what I mean?

00:55:43   Like I can imagine that kind of thing for it,

00:55:46   but I don't know.

00:55:47   The thing that seems interesting to me,

00:55:50   'cause again, like I was talking about this last week,

00:55:52   I am trying to work out what laptops will be right

00:55:56   for our family, right?

00:55:57   Like I need a new laptop, I need a new laptop.

00:56:00   We've been waiting until Apple turned over the whole line

00:56:02   before we made our decisions.

00:56:04   So I started pricing things up

00:56:06   and it starts getting really weird

00:56:08   when you start comparing some of these machines spec to spec.

00:56:12   - Yes, I heard you do this on connected a little bit

00:56:14   where you can make a very expensive MacBook Air

00:56:17   at which point it seems weird.

00:56:19   But that's kind of my point though,

00:56:20   is you can make a MacBook Air that's so expensive

00:56:23   that you might as well get the four port base model

00:56:25   of the 13 inch MacBook Pro.

00:56:29   But that's kind of my point is,

00:56:31   but there's also another laptop in between those two.

00:56:34   That's weird.

00:56:35   But yeah, you're right.

00:56:36   It's kind of all over the place

00:56:39   and you've got to make some decisions.

00:56:40   And somebody might choose the two port model of the 13 inch

00:56:45   for good reasons, but I look at it and I think

00:56:48   that's a pretty narrow window

00:56:50   and you probably need to either firmly commit

00:56:53   to the high end or you need to just say,

00:56:56   the MacBook Air.

00:56:57   'Cause I had a couple of people on Twitter last week say,

00:56:59   well, yeah, but you use the MacBook Air for video editing

00:57:01   or audio editing and or developing

00:57:05   and it's low powered and the fans have to run

00:57:08   and can't take it.

00:57:09   And like I've edited video,

00:57:12   I've edited a 4K video on a MacBook Air.

00:57:15   I've edited podcasts on MacBook Air.

00:57:16   - I have edited 1080p video on a MacBook, 12 inch MacBook.

00:57:20   You know, it can be done.

00:57:21   - So I think there are probably cases

00:57:24   where the MacBook Air is inappropriate.

00:57:27   That's why they make Pro laptops.

00:57:29   But the MacBook Air, the current 2020 MacBook Air

00:57:33   is very capable.

00:57:34   It's a very capable machine.

00:57:35   So I think you downgraded at your peril

00:57:38   to say that people who are even doing things like editing,

00:57:42   video and audio can't use it.

00:57:44   So I think it's a very capable computer

00:57:47   at which point if you need more than that,

00:57:49   you probably should shell out for the 4Port 13.

00:57:53   I like your theory by the way.

00:57:55   I keep thinking about the MacBook, the 12 inch MacBook

00:57:58   and wonder if there isn't room in the arm laptop line

00:58:02   for a tiny fanless laptop.

00:58:04   Although at this point, given what happened before,

00:58:06   I don't know, maybe you call that the 12 inch MacBook Air

00:58:10   or something like that and like pair it

00:58:13   and have two MacBook Airs and two MacBook Pros

00:58:15   or something like that.

00:58:16   I don't know.

00:58:16   I mean, this is why the people at Apple,

00:58:20   this is why they get paid pretty well

00:58:22   is these are hard decisions to navigate

00:58:25   what the products are and at what price points.

00:58:27   And you can see what happens

00:58:28   when you get something a little bit wrong

00:58:30   because I think that's why that 2Port MacBook Pro exists

00:58:32   is that they kind of made a mistake

00:58:34   and are still paying for it.

00:58:37   - Yeah, and it's like they doubled down on it in weird ways

00:58:39   like giving it the touch bar.

00:58:41   Which is super strange.

00:58:43   Like you made the computer more expensive

00:58:46   and made it harder to differentiate from the others

00:58:50   and gave it a feature that Apple

00:58:54   does not seem to believe in enough.

00:58:56   - So this is another thing that I ranted about on this show.

00:59:00   I remember it so you can go back and listen to,

00:59:02   I don't know, was that one maybe when the 16

00:59:04   or maybe it was last summer

00:59:05   but I've done a touch bar rant before

00:59:08   but every time I get one of these,

00:59:09   so I don't own a computer with a touch bar.

00:59:11   We got a lot of MacBook Airs in this house.

00:59:13   I don't own a computer with a touch bar.

00:59:15   So every time I get a review unit from Apple,

00:59:18   I do one of those let's check in on the touch bar.

00:59:20   And it's never any different

00:59:23   because over the course of all this time

00:59:26   since they introduced the touch bar,

00:59:28   which was years ago now, multiple revisions of macOS,

00:59:33   they've done nothing to improve it.

00:59:35   There are a couple of minor changes

00:59:37   that you would not even notice

00:59:39   if you came forward in time from when they introduced it.

00:59:42   It's basically they've done nothing.

00:59:44   And to your point, it is a little bit baffling

00:59:46   about doubling down like,

00:59:47   no, we added the touch bar to this model too

00:59:50   when Apple is acting like it's confident about the touch bar

00:59:54   and yet has apparently given no real software backing to it.

00:59:58   And I know that there are things like that are touch tool.

01:00:01   There are tools that you can kind of use to hack

01:00:04   the touch bar to make it more useful.

01:00:05   But every time I get a touch bar laptop,

01:00:07   I am shocked at how poorly Apple software supports it.

01:00:12   Like there's no third-party access to the control strip.

01:00:15   You can't do sort of global stuff.

01:00:17   The limit, there are obviously developer limitations.

01:00:20   There are some great examples of the touch bar fully formed,

01:00:24   but a lot of apps just don't have

01:00:27   any proper touch bar support.

01:00:29   BB Edit is the one that I was playing with,

01:00:31   my favorite Mac app basically.

01:00:33   And it's got three touch bar buttons in its editor

01:00:36   and they're to show the sidebar,

01:00:38   which I hate and I keep closed

01:00:40   and to move between items in the sidebar.

01:00:41   It's like, there's no way for me to add my scripts on there,

01:00:46   my filters for me to do it.

01:00:47   Like I can't do anything with it.

01:00:49   And yes, that is to a certain degree on bare bones software

01:00:52   for not doing it.

01:00:53   But also like if you were them,

01:00:56   would you prioritize the touch bar?

01:00:58   I mean, there's a chicken and egg thing happening there too.

01:01:01   But if I could have keyboard maestro

01:01:05   with direct access to the touch bar

01:01:06   and program it to do stuff in a certain way,

01:01:09   that would be different, but it doesn't work.

01:01:11   And the third-party stuff like Better Touch Tool

01:01:14   is hacky enough that it works,

01:01:17   but like they're working hard

01:01:19   to work around Apple's limitations

01:01:21   because Apple's done nothing.

01:01:22   There's my mini touch bar rant.

01:01:24   Every time I get one of these touch bars in my house,

01:01:26   I use it thinking I'm gonna find something different

01:01:30   and I never ever find anything different,

01:01:32   which I think makes me ask the question,

01:01:36   is it really a dead product?

01:01:40   Is it really a dead product?

01:01:42   And they couldn't walk away from it.

01:01:43   - No, I don't see how you could.

01:01:46   - I know you're a believer in this.

01:01:47   Well, they could-

01:01:48   - No, it's not even about my own opinions on it.

01:01:50   Like I think it would be really difficult

01:01:52   to add a little screen to a keyboard

01:01:55   and then in the next revision, replace it with keys again.

01:02:00   - What if it was a whole new product

01:02:01   'cause you were doing a processor transition

01:02:04   and you kept it on the high-end laptop

01:02:06   that's gonna stay on Intel and stay around for a while?

01:02:08   - Maybe.

01:02:09   I mean, I just don't know how-

01:02:13   - I'm not advocating for killing the touch bar by the way,

01:02:17   but I am advocating for Apple, if it's going to have it,

01:02:21   it needs to like put effort into it.

01:02:24   - I agree with that.

01:02:24   Right, there should be more there.

01:02:26   It feels like for me, the touch bar is really loved

01:02:30   by the hardware team because it was something

01:02:33   that maybe it was really hard to do.

01:02:35   And so they put it on all the hardware

01:02:37   they can conceivably put it on,

01:02:39   but the operating system team doesn't care about it.

01:02:42   - Yeah, they did the obligatory amount to get it launched

01:02:44   and then they've let it sit there by the side of the road.

01:02:46   And it's like, again, I rarely see this level of dysfunction

01:02:53   from Apple where like from the outside, you can say,

01:02:56   "It seems clear that you don't have alignment

01:02:59   in your teams about this product."

01:03:02   Like you literally, one group is really hot on this feature

01:03:06   and the other group doesn't wanna have anything to do

01:03:07   with it and everybody can tell because they've done nothing.

01:03:11   They've made no effort.

01:03:12   It's either that or they've decided internally

01:03:16   that it's a failure and they're gonna kill it

01:03:18   as soon as they can, as soon as the pride permits them

01:03:21   to kill it and in the meantime,

01:03:23   they're not gonna put any effort into it.

01:03:24   It's one of those two things.

01:03:26   Either it's a badly managed product

01:03:28   where some part of Apple just doesn't wanna do the work.

01:03:31   There are more important things to do.

01:03:34   Or I guess, or they're deluded and they think

01:03:36   that there's literally nothing they could ever add to it

01:03:38   to make it any better, which is totally wrong.

01:03:40   Or they've decided it's a loser

01:03:42   and they're not gonna waste their time on it

01:03:44   and they're gonna get rid of it as soon as they can.

01:03:45   But it's so frustrating every time I see it

01:03:47   'cause it's a cool idea and I'm not opposed to it in general

01:03:51   and yet in specific, when I try to use it,

01:03:54   it doesn't do anything I want it to do

01:03:57   and I can't edit it to make it do something I wanna do

01:04:00   because that's not possible.

01:04:03   - I was listening to Dithering,

01:04:06   which is Ben Thompson and John Gruber's new show,

01:04:08   which I really enjoy and they were talking about this

01:04:10   and they were actually praising your review.

01:04:12   And one of the things that John was saying

01:04:16   was comparing the touch bar to the introduction

01:04:20   of the iPhone in the sense of there's no buttons

01:04:23   on the iPhone because if you have a,

01:04:26   you can't ship a new button.

01:04:27   That was Steve Jobs' idea, right?

01:04:29   Once you put the buttons on the phone

01:04:31   and the phone is in people's hands,

01:04:32   you wanna change something in the software,

01:04:34   you can't send them a new button to do something new.

01:04:37   So they decided to have a complete touchscreen

01:04:40   so the buttons are all software,

01:04:41   you can do whatever they want with them.

01:04:43   That idea should make the touch bar a great thing, right?

01:04:49   Like you can't ship new buttons to a laptop.

01:04:53   The buttons are already there, but you got a screen,

01:04:55   you can put any button you want.

01:04:57   It could be any interaction message you want.

01:04:59   That's the promise of the touch bar,

01:05:02   but it feels like it hasn't been realized yet.

01:05:06   And what I have used, I enjoy it from a basic level,

01:05:11   but also I want more because I like it, right?

01:05:15   Like I want there to be more in it

01:05:17   because if we've made it work with iOS, right?

01:05:21   With like buttons, then you can make it work

01:05:24   with the touch bar.

01:05:25   There can be more there, it just has yet to be seen.

01:05:30   But I liked the comparison of the original iPhone there,

01:05:33   right, like you make more with having a screen.

01:05:37   The buttons can be anything, they can change.

01:05:39   They can change in the next software update.

01:05:42   You can do whatever you want.

01:05:43   You have more functionality to your software

01:05:46   that wasn't there when the computer shipped.

01:05:48   Well, now that doesn't matter

01:05:50   because you can do whatever you want with it, right?

01:05:52   Like it's available to you, so.

01:05:54   - And things that are key proxies

01:05:57   and things that are not at all key proxies

01:05:58   that are whole little UIs on there,

01:06:00   like they've done in Logic and Final Cut and all that.

01:06:02   Now that's fine, and we can debate the finer points

01:06:06   of like do those interfaces work

01:06:08   and is that the right place for it

01:06:09   and it shouldn't even be there.

01:06:10   But if we accept the idea that the touch bar

01:06:14   is an interesting interface element

01:06:16   replacing a bunch of keys that aren't that interesting,

01:06:20   why has it not evolved?

01:06:24   I mean, Mac OS, every time they do an update,

01:06:26   there's a hundred new features, a thousand new features

01:06:29   about this and that thing,

01:06:30   and they tweak this and they tweak that.

01:06:31   They have this brand new interface element.

01:06:34   Anyway, you know, I've said it before.

01:06:36   It really disappoints me, it baffles me.

01:06:39   I want to like the touch bar more than I do,

01:06:42   and it's not because I've decided I hate the touch bar.

01:06:45   It's that every time I bring one of these in,

01:06:48   it's an opportunity to see it anew

01:06:51   because I don't live with a touch bar on a Mac in my house.

01:06:55   And then I'm immediately reminded that it hasn't changed

01:06:59   and is just disappointing,

01:07:00   and there's nothing I can do to make it better

01:07:01   because it's not customizable in any real way.

01:07:05   And yeah, anyway, it's a mystery.

01:07:09   And among mysteries, the big point is

01:07:13   that all the butterfly keyboards are gone, right?

01:07:15   Like that is, we can talk about all these other issues

01:07:18   because the truth is we've said all we can say

01:07:21   about the keyboard.

01:07:22   They fixed the keyboard.

01:07:22   This is a much better keyboard on this laptop.

01:07:24   If you've been waiting five years for a 13-inch laptop,

01:07:27   a 13-inch MacBook Pro, go buy it.

01:07:29   It's here for you now.

01:07:31   It's just all the details that make me wonder.

01:07:33   - This is the MacBook Pro you wanted

01:07:34   but couldn't get for a few years, right?

01:07:36   - Yeah, I would wager there are lots of people out there

01:07:39   with like 2015 MacBook Pros who have been waiting

01:07:41   and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting

01:07:45   for the butterfly keyboard to go away

01:07:47   so they could buy another one.

01:07:48   And they probably already purchased these, right?

01:07:50   They probably already have.

01:07:51   But that is the number one thing that is going on here.

01:07:56   And it's a good thing.

01:07:57   - I have an Ask Upgrade question,

01:08:00   which is just building on this a little bit.

01:08:04   So we'll kind of finalize our thoughts

01:08:06   on whether or not you should buy this

01:08:09   and from what avenue coming from after this break

01:08:12   where we thank our final sponsor,

01:08:14   which is our friends over at Smile.

01:08:15   And I wanna tell you about PDF Pen.

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01:08:43   at the document's zoom level

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01:08:48   so you can automate actions on the Mac.

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01:08:55   supports iOS 13 and the Apple Pencil.

01:08:58   I personally love doing that.

01:08:59   I also find PDF Pen really useful on my iPhone.

01:09:03   I sign contracts on my iPhone.

01:09:04   Like I'm busy, I've just got my phone with me,

01:09:08   someone needs me to sign something,

01:09:09   I could just open it up with PDF Pen.

01:09:11   One of the things I actually really like,

01:09:13   I was talking to my friend Federico Fattucci

01:09:15   about this today 'cause he was mentioning an app

01:09:17   that he wish supported a feature that PDF Pen does,

01:09:19   which is in iOS, it's called Open in Place.

01:09:23   So this is the idea of being able to edit a document

01:09:26   without creating a new version of it.

01:09:28   And this is something that a lot of apps

01:09:30   do not support very well on iOS, but PDF Pen does.

01:09:34   So I can open, I can use PDF Pen,

01:09:36   I can open a PDF that is in Dropbox on my iOS devices

01:09:41   and sign it and it just gets saved to the file.

01:09:45   It doesn't create a duplicate file that I have to override.

01:09:47   So I really like that about PDF Pen.

01:09:49   It's just like a little thing, which they added,

01:09:52   but to people that use this stuff a lot,

01:09:54   makes a big difference.

01:09:55   But anyway, the big new release is PDF Pen 12 for the Mac.

01:09:58   Go to smallsoftware.com/podcast right now.

01:10:01   If you do any work with PDFs, you should check out PDF Pen.

01:10:04   Our thanks to PDF Pen from Smile for their support

01:10:07   of this show and Relay FM.

01:10:08   So Jason, beginning our #askupgradequestions today

01:10:13   is a question from David.

01:10:15   David says, "I have a 2013 13-inch MacBook Pro.

01:10:18   It's old, but I was determined

01:10:20   that I would skip the butterfly keyboard."

01:10:22   Congratulations, David, you did that.

01:10:24   Now finally, I can replace it,

01:10:26   except maybe I wanna wait a little bit longer

01:10:28   for a possible 14-inch update.

01:10:30   Maybe we have an ARM processor.

01:10:32   Should I wait or pull the trigger?

01:10:35   - Part of me wants to say you've waited this long.

01:10:37   You can wait forever.

01:10:39   The other part of me says, no, you've done your work.

01:10:41   You've done more than your work.

01:10:43   I would not wait.

01:10:48   I would not have waited this long, quite frankly,

01:10:51   but I would not wait any longer.

01:10:52   - Yeah, I think it's time.

01:10:53   - You can wait forever.

01:10:54   - Yes. - You can wait forever.

01:10:55   The big gating issue, which was the keyboard,

01:10:57   is gone for you now, so I would just do it.

01:10:59   There will always be new stuff in the future

01:11:01   that will be better than what you're currently buying,

01:11:03   and you could wait forever.

01:11:04   So I'd say you've reached your reward now.

01:11:08   Your seven years in the wilderness is over.

01:11:11   - 'Cause it's like, yeah,

01:11:12   they will be ARM laptops at some point,

01:11:14   but you don't know about the potential downsides

01:11:17   of them right now.

01:11:18   So don't wait for something that is really unknown.

01:11:21   So that would be my thinking,

01:11:24   because if it takes another year,

01:11:26   well, now you're using a 2013 laptop in 2021, right?

01:11:31   - Yeah, no. - It's just like,

01:11:32   you know, that's just gonna keep getting worse

01:11:33   and worse for you.

01:11:34   And as Jason mentioned,

01:11:37   if you have something like a 2013 MacBook Pro,

01:11:40   and you move to a 2020 MacBook Pro,

01:11:43   either of those are gonna feel amazing, right?

01:11:46   Like, especially if you go for the correct one, right,

01:11:49   which is the four port,

01:11:50   you're gonna have a whale of a time.

01:11:52   Like, you're gonna be great over there.

01:11:54   It's gonna be amazing.

01:11:55   So I think now's the time.

01:11:57   You're probably good to move.

01:12:00   Piano Junkie asks, probably a fan of pianos

01:12:03   would be my expectation.

01:12:05   Have either of you guys had problems with your AirPods Pro?

01:12:08   Both the right and left of my AirPods

01:12:10   have been replaced by Apple about six weeks apart

01:12:13   due to a rattling sound when any movement is present.

01:12:16   Curious if anybody else has had this problem.

01:12:18   I wanna talk about this, Jason,

01:12:19   'cause I'm sure like me,

01:12:20   you've had many people contact you and say,

01:12:22   "Why aren't you talking about this?"

01:12:23   - Of course, they usually send a tweet

01:12:25   and they include me and Gruber and Rene Ritchie

01:12:28   and often Marco Arment all in a big group,

01:12:30   like CC, everyone, why aren't you talking about my problem?

01:12:33   That happens a lot. - I'm on those tweets too.

01:12:34   - That's what I'm saying.

01:12:36   Oh good, enjoy.

01:12:38   - I wanted to talk about this

01:12:39   'cause it does seem to be a widespread problem,

01:12:42   but I don't even know what a rattling sound

01:12:45   in my AirPods Pro would be.

01:12:47   - It may be that there's like a little thing in there

01:12:53   that can come detach and all that.

01:12:55   It sounds like this is a problem with a,

01:12:58   widespread is, what does that mean?

01:13:00   It sounds like this is a problem with some AirPods Pro

01:13:03   and you report it and Apple gives you a new one.

01:13:06   - Yeah, when I say widespread,

01:13:09   it is a problem enough

01:13:11   that Apple have made a support document for it.

01:13:13   So it isn't just like a very small thing,

01:13:15   like it's happening enough

01:13:16   that they have created some steps that you should take.

01:13:20   And it seems to be that the problem

01:13:22   is mostly with noise cancellation.

01:13:25   Now I use noise cancellation on my AirPods Pro all the time,

01:13:28   so I've not had this issue. - Yeah, me too.

01:13:30   - One thing I have had recently

01:13:32   is Bluetooth connection problems with my iPad Pro.

01:13:35   So when I'm using them connected to my iPad Pro,

01:13:37   I can hear that like, I can't explain it,

01:13:41   it's not rattling, but it's like pops, right?

01:13:43   And I know that's a connection problem.

01:13:45   This is only happening when I'm using my Logitech mouse,

01:13:47   which makes sense because there is a warning

01:13:49   in the Bluetooth settings that say quote,

01:13:51   "Using the Air Max Ergo,"

01:13:52   which is a Logitech mouse that I use,

01:13:53   "may affect WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity."

01:13:55   So that is happening, right?

01:13:57   But I'm not gonna write to Apple support on that

01:14:01   because they've already told me it's a problem.

01:14:03   And if I can then connect my AirPods to my iPhone instead,

01:14:06   I don't have this problem.

01:14:07   So like there is an issue about mouse there,

01:14:09   like whatever, I like using the mouse.

01:14:11   If the problem also persists,

01:14:12   I could just turn off the mouse and use the trackpad.

01:14:14   - But I mean, the bottom line is

01:14:16   if you have a physical problem with your AirPods,

01:14:18   you should contact Apple and talk to them about it.

01:14:20   And I guess we could write stories saying some,

01:14:25   it's the usual thing.

01:14:29   I've talked about it here before.

01:14:30   It's very hard to get a sense of whether,

01:14:32   if you make millions of something,

01:14:34   some of them are gonna be bad.

01:14:35   And the question is, is it 0.1%, 0.01%, 1%, 10%, 50%?

01:14:40   We don't know.

01:14:45   But the thing is if it's a flaw,

01:14:47   and I'd say contact Apple support

01:14:50   because like some products are gonna be flawed

01:14:52   and presumably if it's a physical flaw,

01:14:54   they will send you new ones.

01:14:56   And if it's a software problem,

01:14:57   maybe they're working on it.

01:14:59   I haven't seen any reports that Apple says

01:15:02   it's not a problem and is ignoring it,

01:15:04   which would put my attention more to it.

01:15:08   Like all these people are having problems with AirPods

01:15:10   and Apple denies that it's a problem,

01:15:12   but that doesn't seem to be what's happening.

01:15:13   I haven't seen anything like this.

01:15:15   I did have my AirPods completely cease to function.

01:15:20   This week.

01:15:21   And it looked like they were out of battery

01:15:24   and they wouldn't charge.

01:15:26   So I ended up plugging them in to,

01:15:29   they wouldn't charge wirelessly.

01:15:32   So I ended up plugging them in directly,

01:15:33   holding down the button, doing the restart,

01:15:37   the complete reset thing.

01:15:39   I did that twice.

01:15:40   And then when they came back,

01:15:41   it came back with the battery at 0% on the case

01:15:48   and on one of the AirPods, but not the other one.

01:15:51   And then they repaired and they charged

01:15:54   and then they were fine.

01:15:56   But that was a weird thing that I experienced

01:15:58   where it just got really confused

01:16:01   and the battery wasn't dead or shouldn't have been dead.

01:16:04   I think something very strange happened

01:16:05   and it went out of control and it discharged and it was bad.

01:16:07   But I haven't heard the rattling problem,

01:16:09   but it sounds like some people have

01:16:12   and Apple support is the place to do this

01:16:15   because if this is a physical problem,

01:16:16   I'm very confident that they will replace your earbuds.

01:16:20   - With the stuff, I think it's very clear

01:16:23   that we tend to talk from our personal experience.

01:16:26   And it's very hard to talk about a thing that has happened

01:16:29   or is happening if it hasn't happened to me.

01:16:31   I don't know what a rattling sound is.

01:16:34   - And again, if 40, 'cause when these things happen,

01:16:38   I'm not saying this in particular,

01:16:40   but when stuff like this happens,

01:16:42   they will always point you at a bunch of Apple support

01:16:45   forum posts and say, "See, this is a huge problem."

01:16:48   And they'll link to like four threads

01:16:50   where eight people said that they have the problem.

01:16:53   It's like, I can't tell if it's these eight people

01:16:57   or 80 people or 8,000 people or 80,000 people.

01:17:00   There's no way to tell.

01:17:02   The internet doesn't let us do that.

01:17:03   So it's very hard because you could write a story,

01:17:06   I'm sure some site does write a story

01:17:08   about every single one of these,

01:17:09   but it's hard to tell.

01:17:12   And in this case, it's a potential hardware problem

01:17:16   on a product that's so new that if you have a problem

01:17:20   with it, the manufacturer, which is Apple, is gonna fix it

01:17:23   because this is a new product and it has a physical problem

01:17:26   in some small percentage, presumably, of these.

01:17:30   So yeah, there it is.

01:17:32   - All right, our next question comes from Holmes.

01:17:36   While sleep tracking for Apple Watch

01:17:38   has been heavily rumored, do you think that if it will

01:17:41   materialize as an announced feature for watchOS 7

01:17:44   for all watches or an exclusive feature

01:17:47   for the Series 6 watch?

01:17:49   - Depends on the hardware, right?

01:17:52   - I think it's gonna be a watch Series 6 thing.

01:17:54   - Well, I mean, this is like the always on

01:18:00   where the question is, is it special hardware

01:18:03   that enables it or is it really just the battery life

01:18:06   pushing it across the finish line?

01:18:08   'Cause I feel like Series 5 could probably do this

01:18:13   in terms of battery life, but it may be that they've got

01:18:15   some special features in the Series 6 hardware

01:18:17   that enable it to get through the night.

01:18:21   And for me, I think it comes down to that.

01:18:25   I don't think Apple, Apple might withhold this feature,

01:18:28   but more likely what happens is this feature

01:18:30   has been crafted for the hardware, right?

01:18:31   Like it is more likely that Apple has built the feature

01:18:35   with the hardware in mind and the hardware

01:18:37   with the feature in mind than it is that it's just

01:18:39   a software thing that they didn't get to

01:18:41   that now they've gotten to.

01:18:43   Because you could do either one,

01:18:45   and that's why I'm not putting out the possibility

01:18:48   that they'll say, yeah, Series 5 can really do this too.

01:18:50   So we put it in both of them.

01:18:52   But it may be that the reason Series 5 doesn't do this

01:18:55   is not that they hadn't gotten around to it.

01:18:58   It's that they weren't satisfied with the performance

01:19:01   of sleep tracking on the Series 5,

01:19:02   and they made changes in Series 6

01:19:04   so that they could launch that feature.

01:19:06   And if that's true, then it will be limited to Series 6.

01:19:10   - Yeah, I agree with you, but I also do feel that

01:19:13   at a certain point you need to come up with new features

01:19:16   to sell watches, and so sometimes you might wanna

01:19:18   just restrict the software feature to it,

01:19:20   even if technically another watch could do it.

01:19:22   - Yeah, it's funny.

01:19:25   Really, it's features like this and it's sensors, right?

01:19:28   'Cause like the Series 5 really only had the difference

01:19:33   of the always on, but that was such a huge feature

01:19:36   that that was a big differentiator.

01:19:38   How do you sell a Series 6 watch?

01:19:39   And I think you're right.

01:19:41   You have to say now with sleep tracking

01:19:43   or now with this new sensor.

01:19:46   - Like there has to be a thing,

01:19:48   and maybe like this is the thing.

01:19:51   I would actually like to file a complaint at this point

01:19:53   about the always on watch face.

01:19:56   - Yes.

01:19:57   - Defaults to that like digital, basic digital face

01:20:01   when you have an app open far too quickly.

01:20:04   So like I've been using a workout app,

01:20:06   like a third party app, but it's got like a remote

01:20:09   for moving through the exercises,

01:20:12   and I so often have to tap it and then tap it again.

01:20:16   - Well, that's annoying.

01:20:17   - So I feel like it's not,

01:20:18   you know, I'm not getting the promise

01:20:21   of the always on face.

01:20:22   Like I think they need to do something

01:20:24   for third party developers to be able to kind of have--

01:20:27   - For sure.

01:20:28   - Not an always on face, but like an always on app

01:20:31   that like it's always ready.

01:20:32   - Right, because the workout app doesn't do that,

01:20:34   but that's their app.

01:20:35   - Exactly.

01:20:36   And I want there to be something.

01:20:39   I don't know what, but I feel like it goes to that,

01:20:43   I mean, all apps that you use, right?

01:20:45   Like it defaults to that ugly,

01:20:47   just blank screen with a digital like time readout

01:20:52   in the top right hand corner

01:20:53   and the screen is kind of semi-translucent.

01:20:55   It goes to that very quickly,

01:20:57   and I would prefer if they could find some way

01:20:59   to just show me the app UI instead

01:21:02   of when I have an application open, then that clock.

01:21:06   Or like if you're gonna force me

01:21:09   to have to look at something,

01:21:11   show me my actual watch face that I chose

01:21:14   rather than this weird one that you're showing me instead.

01:21:17   So it's just an issue I have with the watch face.

01:21:21   'Cause really like, if you remember the pitch was like,

01:21:23   "Oh, people are working out

01:21:24   and they have to tap it with their nose, ha ha ha ha ha."

01:21:27   I'm still having to do that when I'm working out.

01:21:29   - Right, because you're using a third party workout app

01:21:31   and it's screensaver is not the information you wanna see.

01:21:34   - Exactly, and Apple's workout app

01:21:37   can't give me what I need in that moment, right?

01:21:40   So I would like to see some more there.

01:21:42   John asks, "Do you think there will be

01:21:45   a face mask emoji option in iOS 14?"

01:21:48   I feel like it should be added before, like embrace it.

01:21:52   This is the thing that people are doing now,

01:21:53   put face masks in them, right?

01:21:56   I feel like it's a thing, I feel like they should just do it.

01:21:58   - Yeah, sure, why not?

01:21:59   And it's also, it's an emoji,

01:22:01   there's an emoji face mask, so why not?

01:22:04   - I feel like really it should have been

01:22:05   an option before now, right?

01:22:07   Like this is one of those maybe US centric ideas, right?

01:22:10   That they didn't do it before now,

01:22:12   but they had other types of like accessories.

01:22:15   Last question comes from Andrew, Andrew asks,

01:22:18   "What is the worst Apple product that you have ever owned?"

01:22:22   - Great, you go first.

01:22:23   - The 2013 Trashcan Mac Pro.

01:22:26   I owned one of those.

01:22:28   - Oh, right, remember?

01:22:30   - Yeah, and you had actually like technical problems

01:22:32   with it where it behaved weirdly and restarted and stuff.

01:22:34   - It would lock up when I was recording sometimes.

01:22:38   It was like, this was one of the GPU overheating issues

01:22:42   is what it ended up working out to be.

01:22:43   I was like a GPU issue.

01:22:45   And so I would be recording say with Jason,

01:22:48   it happened a lot when recording with Jason,

01:22:50   and the machine would just lock up

01:22:53   and all I could do was turn off the machine

01:22:56   and sometimes I would lose audio.

01:22:58   I would lose some of the recording

01:23:00   and would have to like piece it together

01:23:01   via various backup means.

01:23:03   And it was such a nightmare, such a pain,

01:23:06   and it was something that happened frequently,

01:23:10   but inconsistently, which is like the worst kind of bug,

01:23:14   right, all the time, but you can never predict

01:23:16   when it's gonna happen.

01:23:18   And it just made it that like,

01:23:20   I was always under so much stress while trying to do my work

01:23:23   because I was just waiting for the inevitable lock up

01:23:27   of my machine.

01:23:28   I was so happy to get rid of that thing.

01:23:30   Sold it on eBay.

01:23:33   - Nice. - Told the guy

01:23:35   that was buying it about the problems, they didn't mind.

01:23:39   Like they needed it for a specific reason

01:23:41   and it was the machine that they needed.

01:23:42   So they went for it, so.

01:23:43   - Target practice or something?

01:23:45   - Who knows, who knows?

01:23:47   Just fans, I don't know,

01:23:48   maybe like a Stephen Hackett type person

01:23:49   needed it for a collection, I don't know.

01:23:51   But yeah, I was so happy to replace that thing

01:23:54   with the iMac, the Rintner iMac that I replaced it with.

01:23:56   That was such a mistake buying that computer,

01:23:58   but I had no way, nobody knew at the time

01:24:00   how much of a mistake it was gonna be,

01:24:01   but it was a terrible one.

01:24:03   So have you thought of something?

01:24:05   - Yeah.

01:24:06   The third generation iPod.

01:24:11   - Which one was that one?

01:24:13   - So this is the one where Apple's war on buttons

01:24:17   and moving parts meant that they decided to do an interface

01:24:21   where instead of having the buttons around the scroll wheel,

01:24:23   they put four touch sensitive buttons across the top

01:24:26   right under the display.

01:24:27   - Okay, yep.

01:24:28   - Which was one generation,

01:24:30   and you talk about Apple like sticking to their technology

01:24:33   even after it's clear that nobody likes it,

01:24:36   that was gone immediately.

01:24:38   Just like the no button iPod shuffle

01:24:41   where it was one generation, they're like, nope.

01:24:43   And they went back to the old design.

01:24:45   This was like that too.

01:24:46   It was so bad because if you're operating your iPod on feel,

01:24:51   which people did, like that was the whole point

01:24:55   is it wasn't like a computer you wanted to use.

01:24:57   You really wanted to just pause it, pause the track.

01:25:02   You couldn't operate this thing on feel

01:25:05   because the buttons, if you touch them to get the feel,

01:25:10   they would activate.

01:25:11   And it was so frustrating.

01:25:14   And this was when my kids were little.

01:25:15   And I remember very much,

01:25:17   I had a bunch of times where there was a bedtime

01:25:20   and I would read to them and they would fall asleep,

01:25:24   but you had to wait for them to completely fall asleep

01:25:26   before you could leave the room or they would wake up.

01:25:30   So you're putting them to bed.

01:25:31   There was a period where you just had to sit there

01:25:34   and I would use my iPod and I would listen to music

01:25:37   or a podcast maybe, I don't know, maybe not on my iPod.

01:25:41   I'm probably too early.

01:25:43   On my iPod to pass the time before they're like super asleep

01:25:48   and it's dark in the room and I can't see the iPod

01:25:54   and it would always just get screwed up

01:25:57   because I would touch a button.

01:25:58   I'd be like, no, I didn't mean to touch that button.

01:26:00   And it's just the accidental button presses,

01:26:02   but they're not even presses.

01:26:03   It literally, it was capacitive.

01:26:04   You just brush against one of them

01:26:07   and it's like you push that button.

01:26:08   It was terrible.

01:26:10   It was such a bad idea.

01:26:11   And the previous iPods were so good.

01:26:13   And the success of iPods, the subsequent iPods,

01:26:16   were all good.

01:26:17   That one is a loser.

01:26:19   - Yeah, I don't like that one.

01:26:20   I don't like that the lights were red.

01:26:22   I don't like that, I don't know why they choose red

01:26:24   as the illumination 'cause it didn't match anything else.

01:26:26   It should have been blue if anything, right?

01:26:28   To actually match the color of the screen.

01:26:30   So like this was the one where it was in between.

01:26:34   So the first and second gen,

01:26:36   the wheel was physically moving, right?

01:26:38   And then they went to a solid state wheel,

01:26:41   but four solid state buttons.

01:26:42   And then the fourth gen,

01:26:43   which is the way they actually perfected it,

01:26:45   was the scroll was touch,

01:26:48   but then you could click on the four,

01:26:50   like up, down, left, and right to do things.

01:26:52   - Yes, like a track pad kind of almost.

01:26:55   - And then it never changed on any iPod.

01:26:57   Any iPod that had the wheel, it had that wheel.

01:27:00   - But like that ring around the wheel was great.

01:27:02   Like the first generation, the wheel spun.

01:27:04   The second generation, the wheel was like touch,

01:27:06   but it felt like it spun even though it didn't.

01:27:08   But the ring around the wheel,

01:27:10   so you could orient like up, menu, down,

01:27:14   button in the center, pause,

01:27:15   or button at the bottom, pause, whatever.

01:27:17   Like you knew them and you could do it all by feel.

01:27:19   So you could carry it in your pocket

01:27:20   and you could just reach in and go boop,

01:27:22   and do whatever you need.

01:27:23   Next track, play, pause.

01:27:25   All of that got moved on

01:27:27   to those little touch sensitive buttons and it was garbage.

01:27:29   - If memory serves on an episode of Flashback,

01:27:32   I believe Steven said that he loved this iPod.

01:27:35   I think it was his first one.

01:27:36   And I was upset then and I'm upset now.

01:27:39   It's not a good, it's just, it's the worst iPod.

01:27:42   - It is. - Of the classic iPod.

01:27:44   - It is the worst Apple product I have personally owned.

01:27:48   - Wow, take that hack in, I guess.

01:27:52   Oh, he's in the chat. - I'm just answering

01:27:54   Andrew's question. - He's in the Discord.

01:27:55   Steven's in the Discord answering live.

01:27:57   Yep, it was his favorite, so.

01:27:59   Sorry. - No, he was agreeing with me

01:28:02   that it was the worst Apple product ever.

01:28:04   That's what he was doing, I'm sure.

01:28:06   - Okay, yeah, I'm sure.

01:28:07   We'll save that for another time.

01:28:09   If you'd like to send in a question

01:28:11   to help us close out an episode of Upgrade,

01:28:13   no matter what question you have, #AskUpgrade

01:28:16   and it may be included in a future episode.

01:28:19   Again, if you want to become a Relay FM member,

01:28:21   support the show and get into the Relay FM members Discord.

01:28:26   You can, there's a link right at the top of the show notes

01:28:28   to support Upgrade or you can go to relay.fm/membership

01:28:31   to learn more and sign up.

01:28:32   Thank you so much to everybody that does that.

01:28:34   Really, really, really means a lot to us.

01:28:37   Thank you so much for your continued support.

01:28:39   Also, thanks to Smile, Pingdom and DoorDash

01:28:42   for their support of this show.

01:28:44   Thank you again for listening.

01:28:45   Thanks to Jason for joining me as always.

01:28:46   You can find Jason's work at sixcolors.com.

01:28:50   Jason is @jasonel, J-S-N-E-L-L.

01:28:52   Social media, Jason also produces many shows

01:28:54   here at Relay FM, as well as on The Incomparable.

01:28:57   You can go to incomparable.com to find more there.

01:29:00   I am iMyke, I-M-Y-K-E and we'll be back next time.

01:29:04   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:29:06   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:29:07   (upbeat music)

01:29:09   [ Music ]