00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 295. Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom, Linode, and Fully.
00:00:23 ◼ ► I'm very well, Jason. I just realized... just realized something here. It's very exciting to me.
00:00:30 ◼ ► And that's June 1st, so come on Apple. The day for the keynote needs to be Monday, June 1st,
00:00:37 ◼ ► because then it can be episode 300 of Upgrade. Don't give us it on June 8th, when it's 301,
00:00:42 ◼ ► because that'd be super upsetting. It would just redirect. So come on, episode 300, June 1st, WWDC.
00:00:50 ◼ ► Wouldn't that be great? Or, I mean, honestly, I would take a draft. Episode 300 would be in a draft,
00:00:55 ◼ ► so they could do it the week after. So the first two weeks, that's when it's got to be.
00:01:10 ◼ ► but I have recorded something that says that it's, "You've reached my phone and leave a message."
00:01:25 ◼ ► And, you know, I really love voicemail greetings that go into great detail about how you leave a voicemail message.
00:01:32 ◼ ► Or sometimes the automated system explains that now that you've heard this message, here's what we're going to do.
00:01:38 ◼ ► You're going to hear a tone. And then after the tone, we're not going to say anything because you need to say something then.
00:01:43 ◼ ► And then when you're done, you can either just hang up or press the pound key because it's like an email you have to send.
00:01:52 ◼ ► I like the idea of telling people they need to hang up. Just wait. Maybe they'll pick up.
00:01:59 ◼ ► They invented answering machines in the late 70s. Why are we still explaining how you use them?
00:02:05 ◼ ► Plus, at this point, anybody who's leaving a voicemail is old enough to remember the late 70s.
00:02:23 ◼ ► I literally said, "I don't check this voicemail. Send me an email because I'm not going to hear you."
00:02:34 ◼ ► I would check it every once in a while and there'd be like 18 messages on it from three months before.
00:02:42 ◼ ► And that's why I put the message on there. It was more like, "You can leave a message if you want,
00:02:46 ◼ ► and I'll probably listen to it eventually, but if you really want to reach me, send me an email, please.
00:03:23 ◼ ► just send out a tweet with the hashtag #SNELtalk, and it may be considered for the future.
00:04:13 ◼ ► And he said, "It's better to think about that almost as a tool to remember where you were
00:04:25 ◼ ► But he was making the broader point that it's a tool to be used by the public health workers
00:05:42 ◼ ► and to also better calculate the distances at which people were to each other when talking.
00:06:14 ◼ ► but if you touch something that was sneezed on by somebody who was there 10 minutes ago,
00:06:58 ◼ ► or agencies, I should say, will be able to start implementing this into their applications.
00:07:06 ◼ ► it feels like there's still a lot of confusion about how these APIs are going to be implemented.
00:07:19 ◼ ► and this actually segues pretty well into the other part of this that we need to talk about,
00:07:34 ◼ ► It's funny, European countries that have been part of the EU and very forward in privacy issues,
00:07:40 ◼ ► right? And then they say, "Well, we're gonna do this thing where you send us all your data."
00:08:04 ◼ ► And what happens if you don't do that, and you just build an app yourself and put it out there,
00:08:10 ◼ ► and I think Australia did this, and there's some countries that have done this, and others
00:08:14 ◼ ► were planning on doing it, is on iOS, you can't do that. On iOS, you can't just have an app that
00:08:26 ◼ ► the system will shut it down and say you're working in the background. So you have to keep it
00:08:29 ◼ ► in the foreground and you have to keep your app open and your phone open and unlocked and running
00:08:35 ◼ ► that app, which nobody's... It's not gonna work. Nobody's gonna do that. But because Apple doesn't
00:08:40 ◼ ► support this kind of behavior in an app to do all of this in the background and run forever,
00:08:45 ◼ ► they're trying to work around it and complain to Apple and say, "Oh, Apple is bad. They should just
00:08:52 ◼ ► let us do whatever we want here," which is against all of Apple's rules for good reasons that exist
00:08:56 ◼ ► there. But what seems to be happening is that was the first wave of like, "We're gonna write an app
00:09:01 ◼ ► that does this." And then Apple and Google came out with their thing, which said, "Hold on now.
00:09:08 ◼ ► and it'll protect everybody's privacy." And you get cases like in Germany, where Germany,
00:09:13 ◼ ► and I think France too, said, "We're gonna do it the first way. We're gonna build this centralized
00:09:18 ◼ ► thing, and we're gonna build an app, and you're gonna have to run it, and Apple needs to play
00:09:21 ◼ ► ball with us and let us run our app all the time," and all of that. And everybody was like,
00:09:26 ◼ ► "Look at the white paper that Google and Apple are working on now. That's the way to do this."
00:09:32 ◼ ► Something that I will say is pretty impressive for government and leaders of a government to see
00:09:44 ◼ ► They say, "Oh, yeah, you're right. Let's do that instead." And so I think it's the right thing to
00:09:50 ◼ ► do. It is kind of breathtaking and a little bit scary to consider that the government of Germany,
00:09:55 ◼ ► for example, was like, "We want to do it this way," and then two tech companies from the Bay Area
00:10:00 ◼ ► say, "Mm, Germany, no. Do it our way instead," and Germany's like, "Oh, yes, sir. Yes, sir.
00:10:06 ◼ ► You're right. We'll do it your way. We'll do it your way." - But for me, though, I prefer that,
00:10:11 ◼ ► personally. - Well, I will say this. The technical expertise at Apple and Google about building a
00:10:22 ◼ ► far exceeds the technical expertise available in a government. - That's my feeling, right? Like,
00:10:37 ◼ ► is Germany using this as a secret method to get all their information about their people? No,
00:10:46 ◼ ► but once a government has that information, you don't know what the government's going to do with
00:10:50 ◼ ► it. You don't know what aspects of the government are going to do. You don't know what the next
00:10:53 ◼ ► government's going to be. And as a lot of people learned after 9/11, once rules about information
00:11:00 ◼ ► and security and other things change, it's often very hard to get them to revert back to what they
00:11:06 ◼ ► were before the event. So to their credit saying, I just think it's funny that it's like the tech
00:11:12 ◼ ► companies step up and go, no, no, no countries, don't do it that way. And the countries are like,
00:11:16 ◼ ► oh, no, we won't do it that way. You're right. - It's like Winter Charmsian in the chat. Like,
00:11:25 ◼ ► in their current form, but they don't have, they cannot have the technical expertise and ability
00:11:35 ◼ ► to make this work correctly as Google and Apple do. - Who's building these apps? Who's building
00:11:45 ◼ ► probably doesn't know a lot about these issues and hasn't thought about them a lot and is doing the
00:11:52 ◼ ► most straightforward, well, we're looking for Bluetooth and then we log it to a server and we
00:11:56 ◼ ► run in the foreground and we're done. Whereas Apple and Google are the OS vendors and they have come
00:12:03 ◼ ► together and they are building something that's based. I wrote a piece in Mac world a few weeks
00:12:07 ◼ ► ago that basically is like, it's really good that Apple's in the conversation here because Apple has
00:12:11 ◼ ► spent so much time trying to figure out ways to do this that keep people's information private
00:12:16 ◼ ► while having it be usable because it's been Apple's game to do it this way. It's been their brand
00:12:21 ◼ ► promise to do it this way. They've done the research and that's really helpful in this moment
00:12:27 ◼ ► when everybody's looking for a solution that Apple can go to Google and they can both step forward
00:12:32 ◼ ► and say, we have all the smartphones on the planet and we're gonna build it this way. Please build it
00:12:36 ◼ ► with us this way because that leadership is going to end up with people in all sorts of countries
00:12:44 ◼ ► not having a centralized database of all their location information in the name of contact
00:12:49 ◼ ► tracing that is then a centralized government database, which again might not be misused,
00:12:56 ◼ ► but this is a better approach. This is a better approach. So I'm glad that Apple's kind of
00:13:04 ◼ ► differentiator as a company and the work they do into that has ended up being something that
00:13:10 ◼ ► I think is going to make the world a better place. Not intentionally, they didn't do it this way,
00:13:20 ◼ ► I think we're going to get a system that doesn't have governments tracking everybody's movements
00:13:24 ◼ ► and that's better. For a long time on this show, if you've been listening for long enough,
00:13:34 ◼ ► I believe that Tim Cook is the most powerful person on the planet. That is my opinion. He is at world
00:13:41 ◼ ► leader level and everyone will listen to him and I think that this is another example of this
00:13:46 ◼ ► because it's known now that Tim Cook and the President is Prime Minister of France. I can't
00:13:54 ◼ ► remember if it's President or Prime Minister, I apologize, but the leader, the Premier of France,
00:13:59 ◼ ► they had a conversation because there was this weird photo of Tim on a screen. You've seen
00:14:04 ◼ ► this picture, right? And the Premier talking and it's like, then they're like, "Oh, we've spoken
00:14:10 ◼ ► to Apple and it's all good now. We're going to go with the Apple Google solution." And I think that
00:14:16 ◼ ► that was the PRI thing, but I genuinely feel like at a level, Tim is just going to them and being
00:14:23 ◼ ► like, "This is how we are going to do it and we strongly advise that you do it our way." Because
00:14:37 ◼ ► they are at world leader level and at a time, thank you, Kate, for telling me that Macron is
00:14:45 ◼ ► President. I went with President, Prime Minister and Premier. I thought I would hit it off
00:14:49 ◼ ► somewhere and thank you for the reminder. But I think this is showing and I am unsure how I feel
00:14:58 ◼ ► about this. It's good and bad to me. Who's got the power here? Who do I want to have it?
00:15:04 ◼ ► Tim Cynova Well, when I joke about Germany and France saying, "Oh yes, Apple and Google,
00:15:09 ◼ ► yes sir, yes sir, we'll do what you want." I don't mean, I mean, that's what I'm getting at is,
00:15:24 ◼ ► on this and that they need to follow their lead because that's sort of not how it's supposed to
00:15:30 ◼ ► work and it makes me worry about the power of these huge tech companies. I think this is a
00:15:36 ◼ ► good thing in the short term, but I think after we're done with this, a lot of people are going
00:15:40 ◼ ► to point to moments like this and say, "Why do they have so much power?" That said, having not
00:15:46 ◼ ► it just be in the government, but having it be in other places too might not be the worst thing,
00:15:51 ◼ ► but it is unsettling to think about it. The vast amount of power that these private, I mean,
00:16:21 ◼ ► overplay this, but we need to look at what is happening here. If this system continues to go
00:16:28 ◼ ► forward and the tech companies continue to push it and they continue to do different things to
00:16:34 ◼ ► massage the way that governments work, everyone's learned a lesson here. Cook and Pachai have
00:16:42 ◼ ► realised, "Oh, we can bend the world to our will if we need to." And that is a weird thing.
00:16:54 ◼ ► You mentioned how a lot of things changed after 9/11, right? And the powers of the government
00:17:01 ◼ ► in America became much, a lot of freedoms changed and freedom of movement changed, right?
00:17:09 ◼ ► Travelling across the globe changed because of that one event. And the way that tourists
00:17:15 ◼ ► are treated when they come to America is like you are guilty until proven innocent, right?
00:17:20 ◼ ► That is how you are treated when you enter an American customs situation, right? I feel like
00:17:26 ◼ ► anyone, I think even some Americans have this problem, but if you arrive into America as a
00:17:32 ◼ ► tourist with all of the visas and stuff, you are still treated like you need to prove to me that
00:17:38 ◼ ► you are not coming here to cause trouble, which is a very weird thing. But those are the things
00:17:44 ◼ ► that changed and this could be the stuff that changes, which is the power balance moves.
00:17:50 ◼ ► Because it's one of those things that if you look, you can see it, right? Again, look at the
00:17:57 ◼ ► Mac Pro thing that we spoke about with Cook and Trump. That was something where it's like, "Oh,
00:18:02 ◼ ► this is a weird global political situation." But now it's like, they're not even coming at this to
00:18:09 ◼ ► be like, "Oh, we'll give you something, you give us something back." It's very much like, "This is
00:18:14 ◼ ► the system. You cannot interact with your apps in any better way than this. We will not allow it.
00:18:21 ◼ ► Go for it." Right? Because there's a report from Reuters, which says that basically that's
00:18:27 ◼ ► effectively what happened in the German government. They were like, "Well, the only way we can make
00:18:30 ◼ ► this work properly is if it will work in the background. And the only way we're going to do
00:18:37 ◼ ► that is if we go with Apple's system." It's just class that. Yeah. And this is also an example of
00:18:44 ◼ ► extreme... And this is where it may backfire on the tech companies. This is an extreme moment.
00:18:49 ◼ ► And so right now they need to get this out as quickly as possible. And Apple and Google have
00:18:55 ◼ ► teed it up. They're like, "May, we're going to have the API. And later on in the summer, we're
00:19:00 ◼ ► going to have it built into every phone that is on the current version of our operating system or
00:19:05 ◼ ► whatever. It's going to happen." And if you're the government and you say, "Well, no, what we want
00:19:10 ◼ ► you to do is modify your operating system to run our app in the foreground all the time," Apple's
00:19:14 ◼ ► going to be like, "Uh, no, we can't do that." In the long run, though, the governments are going
00:19:23 ◼ ► to look at this situation and say, "Wow, we need to be able to tell them what to do." I really
00:19:28 ◼ ► believe that's going to be the outcome of this in a year or two. It's just going to be like, "Wow,
00:19:32 ◼ ► they really had us over a barrel there. They had us where they wanted us. We couldn't tell them,
00:19:38 ◼ ► make our app run in the foreground." And I know that that's a little bit like saying to encryption
00:19:42 ◼ ► experts, "Just invent a magic golden key that decrypts things." It doesn't work that way. But
00:19:48 ◼ ► governments want to be able to order corporations to do what they want if they need them to do it,
00:19:56 ◼ ► whether it's give up information. Governments want to pass laws and say, "You have to do it this way.
00:20:00 ◼ ► This is why we operate as a government representing the people, and you don't represent the people,
00:20:06 ◼ ► and we need you to behave in a certain way." That's how it works. So I think they're going
00:20:09 ◼ ► to look at this and be like, "We did it now." And it is a superior approach, but I think a lot of
00:20:16 ◼ ► people in governments are going to look at it and say, "Wow, Google and Apple had us all. They had
00:20:21 ◼ ► us under their thumbs because they have all the smartphones." And I would not be surprised if the
00:20:27 ◼ ► EU especially is much more aggressive at some point down the line because of stuff like this.
00:20:32 ◼ ► Even though Apple and Google, I think, are in the right here, and they're trying to get all
00:20:37 ◼ ► these governments that were doing these fast reactions to build smartphone tracking in,
00:20:56 ◼ ► And again, I would just say, I agree. Governments might say, "Well, we need to have a better control
00:21:05 ◼ ► over this." But then Apple and Google might say, "They can't control us." And so we are entering
00:21:12 ◼ ► into these very strange times because of stuff like this. However, I think my feeling on this
00:21:17 ◼ ► right now is still, I think this is a good thing for right now. I agree with that. I agree with
00:21:25 ◼ ► that. I think the long run is the question and the balance of power. I could take the optimistic side
00:21:33 ◼ ► here too, and that the European countries will look at this and say, "Oh, these guys aren't as
00:21:37 ◼ ► bad as we thought." That they stepped up and built a privacy-based system without anybody asking them
00:21:42 ◼ ► to, and it was better than ours. And maybe these people, we shouldn't be quite as troubled by their
00:21:52 ◼ ► behavior. That could happen. I'm skeptical. Anyway, we should put a bookmark in that and say,
00:21:57 ◼ ► "Let's check back in a few years and see what the ramifications of Google and Apple basically say
00:22:04 ◼ ► nope to global governments and having them fall in line." But it's fascinating to watch. And
00:22:11 ◼ ► hopefully, again, the point of this is, hopefully, these will roll out quickly in all sorts of places
00:22:17 ◼ ► and that this technology will be helpful. This technology that's not called contact tracing,
00:22:22 ◼ ► it's called exposure notification, will be helpful in a larger program of finding out where the virus
00:22:27 ◼ ► is and who has been in contact with somebody who might have been contagious so that we can stop
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00:25:35 ◼ ► headlines. There's been a lot going on. HBO Max is set to launch on May 27th in the US for $14.99 a
00:25:42 ◼ ► month, which seems expensive now in the overall landscape. But you do get #allyourfavorites,
00:25:48 ◼ ► friends. Big Bang Theory, South Park Studio, Ghibli, tons of movies, tons of originals.
00:25:53 ◼ ► All the HBO originals, some other originals. I want to point out, by the way, that one of the
00:25:59 ◼ ► ads for this that came out from HBO social media promoting this was a picture of Tony Soprano,
00:26:08 ◼ ► a picture of Chandler Bing from Friends, and a picture of, I don't know, Sheldon from The Big
00:26:13 ◼ ► Bang Theory. And it said Bada Bing Bang. And I thought, this isn't going to devalue the HBO brand
00:26:22 ◼ ► at all. So here's two things about that. One, that went viral because it was so bad, but that,
00:26:27 ◼ ► but it doesn't matter because it means most people saw it. And I did see a lot of people being like,
00:26:31 ◼ ► the people at old HBO, this was their number one fear. Yeah, it's true. Bada Bing Bazinga,
00:26:37 ◼ ► right? Like, what do you want? Yeah, Bada Bazinga. I think, I think from, okay, let me put on my
00:26:45 ◼ ► WarnerMedia corporate hat. I think HBO is the best brand they had. I think HBO Max is probably the
00:26:50 ◼ ► right decision. I also appreciate the fact that it basically, you know, is going to redefine
00:26:57 ◼ ► what HBO means in a way that is maybe not great, but I think this is what they had to do. I just
00:27:05 ◼ ► think this is what they had to do. And they can still make quality originals and they've got a
00:27:10 ◼ ► bunch of catalog content. I don't think HBO Max is going to probably be making, you know, CBS-style
00:27:18 ◼ ► sitcoms as their originals going forward. It seems less likely that they would do that. My guess is
00:27:23 ◼ ► that they may be broader than HBO proper, but that they will still be in terms of their originals
00:27:29 ◼ ► stuff that they can be more or less proud of. But yeah, like this is what they had to do because
00:27:35 ◼ ► they needed to create this product. I'm as an HBO subscriber via cable, so I get HBO Go. It's
00:27:44 ◼ ► unclear to me even now exactly what that means when this launches. And if I have to pay more to
00:27:52 ◼ ► get this or if I can't get it or what, but they've got a big catalog. And HBO's stuff is good on its
00:28:01 ◼ ► own because I pay for that. So this is a superset of that. You're right, $15 a month does seem like
00:28:06 ◼ ► a lot, but they have this challenge, as we've talked about here, with the fact that they've got
00:28:10 ◼ ► HBO, which people pay for via their cable companies and cable companies pay for. And then you're
00:28:16 ◼ ► adding all this other stuff on top of it. You can't charge less for everything than you do for
00:28:24 ◼ ► just HBO. That would have the effect of literally you'd be paying not to watch Friends. The Friends
00:28:31 ◼ ► reunion episode is delayed, right? Because they wanted to get them all in the same room.
00:28:36 ◼ ► I think a Zoom call would not give you what you wanted. So that's some stuff that they're doing.
00:28:42 ◼ ► I want this service. There are no international plans. And this is because a lot of the content
00:28:49 ◼ ► is spread all over the place still. So I would expect that HBO will wait for a while before they
00:28:54 ◼ ► can rein some of it in. Yeah, they've got years of deals with other places for a lot of their
00:28:59 ◼ ► content internationally. And so they've got to start somewhere. So they want Friends, right?
00:29:04 ◼ ► That's a massive point. That must have part of their service that they will try to sell you.
00:29:10 ◼ ► But it's on Netflix. So I guess they're gonna wait. But there's stuff here that I want. I can't
00:29:17 ◼ ► get HBO content. I don't know if you know this, I've mentioned before, there is no HBO for me to
00:29:24 ◼ ► put. I mean, don't Sky have most of their... Yeah, so we are a now TV customer. So we can get...
00:29:33 ◼ ► Because I like to watch John Oliver and stuff like that. But the now TV app, which I've said
00:29:37 ◼ ► a million times, all their apps are absolute garbage. They are garbage. They are so bad.
00:29:42 ◼ ► The design of them is front rows design. That is the design on Apple TV. It's front row.
00:29:48 ◼ ► It is absolute garbage. So bad, but it's the only way we're gonna get content. Anyway, Peacock has
00:29:56 ◼ ► also kind of launched as of April 15th. This is NBC service, Comcast X1 and Flex customers. I don't
00:30:04 ◼ ► know what that means. They are getting an ad supported version of Peacock. What is Comcast X1
00:30:11 ◼ ► and Flex? Okay. Comcast X1 is Comcast DVR. It's their latest generation DVR. I don't have one,
00:30:19 ◼ ► even though I have Comcast because I have a TiVo instead. But it's their fake TiVo. It's their
00:30:24 ◼ ► faux TiVo. Tifo. And the Flex is their fake Apple TV or fake streaming box, streaming stick,
00:30:34 ◼ ► which is weird, but that's a thing they've got where like, "No, no, no, no. I know you want to
00:30:39 ◼ ► cut the cord. We'll just sell you the internet and then you can get your TV from us on this thing."
00:30:44 ◼ ► It's totally cutting the cord, right? So it's their streaming box. So if you've got their
00:30:50 ◼ ► hardware that they control right now, you can get it. It's unclear whether as... So I'm a
00:30:56 ◼ ► Comcast subscriber. Am I going to get a version of this between now and July 15th? Probably,
00:31:03 ◼ ► but it's unclear exactly when that'll happen. Right now, they're basically beta testing it on people
00:31:07 ◼ ► who are their subscribers with Comcast controlled hardware. - Because that is the big thing right
00:31:13 ◼ ► now, which is kind of, I think it's very funny. So it's ad supported. This is their testing,
00:31:19 ◼ ► and they're still planning to launch on July 15th. That date was set because of the Olympics,
00:31:30 ◼ ► why don't you just launch it now then? Because you already can. People want it. Why not do it?"
00:31:39 ◼ ► And NBC have been asked that question a bunch, and they're kind of saying like, "Oh, we're
00:31:48 ◼ ► right? Like it's difficult. But this is the time right now to launch this project. And July
00:31:55 ◼ ► will still be fine, but now is the right time. Anyway, so that's where Peacock is. Again,
00:32:01 ◼ ► just US only for now, but it's starting to trickle out. Moving on, Samsung and Apple are continuing
00:32:08 ◼ ► their partnership. Apple Music is now streaming on Samsung Smart TVs. This is the first Smart TV to
00:32:19 ◼ ► further than just Amazon. I know Sonos has it, but that... I mean, I love you Sonos, but let's
00:32:29 ◼ ► could do it. Now Apple Music is an app on Samsung Smart TVs, which is peculiar. Like I can't imagine
00:32:35 ◼ ► there is a huge desire for that, but it was interesting to me nonetheless of Apple continuing
00:32:41 ◼ ► to expand their services out to other places. And you might know a bit more about this than me. I
00:32:53 ◼ ► Apple is one of the many streaming companies currently discussing the rights to collegiate
00:32:57 ◼ ► sporting events. They're talking to the Pac-12 Conference, which I'm going to need you to explain.
00:33:08 ◼ ► Conference, formerly the Pac-10 Conference. It goes back beyond that. But anyway, they're based
00:33:13 ◼ ► in San Francisco. There were several reports that Apple and Pac-12 officials had been talking.
00:33:19 ◼ ► This is a few years before all of the college media rights come up for grabs. There's a long
00:33:26 ◼ ► story here about the Pac-12 deciding not to partner with ESPN or Fox and give over ownership
00:33:33 ◼ ► of their media properties. They instead own them themselves. This was a play that was intended to
00:33:38 ◼ ► allow them to cash in with media rights. It hasn't really worked out that way for them. They've
00:33:44 ◼ ► actually had a hard time getting carried on DirecTV and other places like that. There's been a lot of
00:33:49 ◼ ► it. It's very controversial, actually, in athletic and media analysis circles, especially on the West
00:33:55 ◼ ► Coast. So this report basically says Apple's talking to them, except when you really look into
00:34:01 ◼ ► it, it's all unofficial because they have an official negotiation period with the existing
00:34:09 ◼ ► right holders. So they're basically allowed to officially talk to only their partners until a
00:34:17 ◼ ► date, at which point they can talk to everybody. So they can talk generally with Apple, but they
00:34:22 ◼ ► can't negotiate anything. There's nothing being negotiated. What is interesting about this is
00:34:29 ◼ ► that it's Apple investigating sports and live sports as a part of their system. Now, is that
00:34:40 ◼ ► Apple TV Plus? Is that a different Apple service that's for live sports that competes with ESPN
00:34:48 ◼ ► and Disney? Is this, you know, talking about it, but really kind of keeping an eye toward it being
00:34:56 ◼ ► more like a channel on Apple TV that would be for Pac-12, where you could get it? Now, the Sports
00:35:05 ◼ ► Business Daily report that seems to be the originator of this says that Apple is not as
00:35:10 ◼ ► interested or at least indicated because these are just conversations. I don't know how you have
00:35:14 ◼ ► conversations with somebody during an exclusive negotiating window with someone else. I don't
00:35:29 ◼ ► - They live near each other and are walking their dogs. Yeah. But what the Sports Business
00:35:35 ◼ ► Daily report suggests is that Apple is not interested in talking to them about a digital
00:35:43 ◼ ► tier. So the idea that they would sell this many football games and basketball games to ESPN
00:35:48 ◼ ► and this many to Fox, and then they'd do some streaming stuff with Apple. Apple's talking to
00:35:53 ◼ ► them about everything, about the whole package. Like, we want all of it, and we're going to show
00:36:00 ◼ ► all of it. And maybe Apple would be open to something like, you know, this game, you know,
00:36:05 ◼ ► this is a high-profile game, and it'll be on ESPN or something like that. But maybe not. Maybe it's
00:36:08 ◼ ► all just on Apple. And you think, if you're a sports conference, do you want to have your
00:36:14 ◼ ► sports be an Apple TV exclusive? Like, you're risking losing a lot of viewers, even if you
00:36:19 ◼ ► get a lot of money out of it. So there's that. It also is a question of the scope of Apple's
00:36:25 ◼ ► interest, because we talked about a while ago, there's another rumor that after a couple of years,
00:36:30 ◼ ► the NFL Sunday Ticket package, which lets you stream all of the NFL games no matter where you
00:36:35 ◼ ► live in the U.S., that Apple's been talking about, that's currently a DirecTV thing, that Apple's
00:36:41 ◼ ► interested in that, too. So it does seem to me like Apple is doing some due diligence about sports,
00:36:47 ◼ ► because live sports is a huge draw. And it's not something that can be time-shifted, although,
00:36:53 ◼ ► I mean, you can have sports content that can be time-shifted, but, like, it also is going to
00:36:56 ◼ ► draw people live. And people have these allegiances. It is a major portion of why I still have Comcast,
00:37:06 ◼ ► and I know this sounds ridiculous, is because of my sports allegiances. And particularly,
00:37:12 ◼ ► Pac-12 Network is on Comcast, and it's not on most of the streaming channels. And the ones that it is
00:37:18 ◼ ► on don't have NFL Network or MLB Network. And, like, sports is a powerful tool to get people
00:37:26 ◼ ► to use your service over someone else's. So Apple's clearly interested here. I'm unclear
00:37:31 ◼ ► what form that would take or whether anything would come out of it, but something's going on here.
00:37:35 ◼ ► >> Apple have ordered another wonder podcast to be turned into a TV show. This one is called
00:37:41 ◼ ► The Shrink Next Door. It's going to star Will Ferrell and Paul Rudd. It's like a dark comedy
00:37:46 ◼ ► based loosely on true events of the relationship between a celebrity psychiatrist and a patient.
00:37:51 ◼ ► I like these two. I think that they are very good together, and I am excited to see a comedy show
00:38:00 ◼ ► featuring Will Ferrell and Paul Rudd again. I also find it interesting that Apple keeps
00:38:08 ◼ ► >> Yeah. I don't know what we would do, but we could do it. It would be great. Just give us a call.
00:38:13 ◼ ► And just to round this out, there's a bunch of new content on Apple TV+, which I'll just highlight.
00:38:18 ◼ ► Fraggle Rock, Defending Jacob, Beastie Boys Story, and Trying are all shows that are debuting,
00:38:24 ◼ ► have debuted last week or but ended this week. >> Defending Jacob with Chris Evans has gotten
00:38:28 ◼ ► pretty good reviews. And, of course, as we've detailed here before, a lot of scenes shot in
00:38:32 ◼ ► the park behind John Syracuse's house. >> That's the one of those. I'm going to watch that,
00:38:40 ◼ ► which is this. John has confirmed now that there are numerous locations in Defending Jacob where
00:38:49 ◼ ► >> Also, I watched Home Before Dark, which is an Apple TV original. And I'm not going to spend too
00:39:02 ◼ ► >> Yes, I was. I've heard from people who are like, "Oh, but I like it." Well, I watched episode one,
00:39:07 ◼ ► and I didn't particularly like it, but I thought, "Well, I'll give episode two a try." And by the
00:39:11 ◼ ► end of episode two, I was convinced that I did not like it. So, alas, that's the first Apple TV show
00:39:17 ◼ ► that I've really disliked. But, you know, hey, if you like it, great. I couldn't take it. >> I'll
00:39:28 ◼ ► >> Yeah, I love him. Love a good report, me. >> Love a good Gurman. >> This one comes from
00:39:37 ◼ ► >> It took three people to report this story, yeah. >> It's a third person. And I don't recall
00:39:41 ◼ ► Ian King. Debbie Wu is very frequently named in these reports. Wu, I think, is based in Taiwan,
00:39:47 ◼ ► so I think probably has quite a lot of supply chain sources, which is probably why Debbie
00:39:57 ◼ ► ARM Macs to be on sale next year, according to this report from Bloomberg. They are preparing
00:40:03 ◼ ► now to release one in 2021 with others to follow later. Maybe in 2021, maybe later. >> This is great
00:40:12 ◼ ► as I've done the last, like, five years. So, great. >> Apple are currently working on three
00:40:23 ◼ ► the first of these will be much faster than the processors in the iPhone and iPad, the people said.
00:40:33 ◼ ► and at least four energy-efficient cores known internally as IceStorm. Apple is exploring Mac
00:40:51 ◼ ► Apple's designs will double or quadruple the number of cores that Intel provides them. >> So,
00:40:56 ◼ ► is the GPU Spider-Man? I'm referring, of course, to the cartoon Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends,
00:41:01 ◼ ► where he had a flame buddy and an ice buddy, and then there was Spider-Man. So, maybe the GPU is
00:41:06 ◼ ► Spider-Man. >> Spiderstorm, which I don't want. >> Spiderstorm, no, no, that's terrible. That's
00:41:11 ◼ ► one of the biblical plagues, I think. So, the A14, just as a point of order, is the chip that
00:41:17 ◼ ► is expected in the next generation of iPhones that comes this fall. So, the idea here is that
00:41:22 ◼ ► Apple's doing a new processor that is their processor for fall of 2020, or as we, you know,
00:41:28 ◼ ► I don't know, and then for the spring of 2020, part two, numerals, or 2021, as it used to be known.
00:41:34 ◼ ► And I think this really makes sense, right? This is their, we're going into production. I think
00:41:39 ◼ ► this story said that they were doing a test, a prototype based on the A12X that they used in some
00:41:46 ◼ ► Mac prototype designs. But this is the one where they're like, okay, now we're just going to full
00:41:49 ◼ ► on, there's going to be an A14 family, essentially, whether they're called that or not. And it's going
00:41:54 ◼ ► to power, presumably, iPhones, iPads, and our Macs. And they're going to have to build their
00:42:00 ◼ ► own GPU for this, and like they do, essentially, for the iPhone stuff. And it's, I don't know,
00:42:22 ◼ ► But a Gherman report, a Mark Gherman report, is usually an indication that something is happening,
00:42:28 ◼ ► right? He has the track record. So when you see this stuff, it's like, here is, we've been talking
00:42:34 ◼ ► about this for a while, we've seen rumors about this for a while, but here is some like, pinpoint
00:42:38 ◼ ► details which are important, right? Like, the idea that they were doing this in 2018 as a test,
00:42:44 ◼ ► that is an important thing to know. The fact that they're like, the A14 design is going to become a
00:42:48 ◼ ► platform, essentially, which the iPhone will get, then the iPad will get, and then a Mac will get.
00:42:54 ◼ ► And there's also a detail in the report that I like that in parallel, a process has already begun
00:42:59 ◼ ► to make Mac versions of the 2021 A series of chips, which I guess suggests that it is possible
00:43:06 ◼ ► that there will be yearly chip revisions to every laptop and every Apple computer that is produced,
00:43:13 ◼ ► from the iPhone all the way up to whatever in the future, with the idea being, and it's referenced
00:43:18 ◼ ► in this report, we spoke about it forever, Apple is fed up of being tied to other people and relying
00:43:25 ◼ ► on them and their schedules, right? So this is, this is the, we already see the iPhone and the iPad
00:43:31 ◼ ► more or less marching in lockstep. The current iPad Pro is a little bit weird where they're using
00:43:37 ◼ ► that older version, but I think with variations like that happening from time to time, I think
00:43:42 ◼ ► this is the idea, right? Is Apple is going to do a new chip family design every year, and then they'll
00:43:48 ◼ ► use those chips in all of their products. - Alright, this gives them the opportunity to, because like,
00:43:53 ◼ ► you said they don't do it with the iPad, right? They do like every 18 months or two years, they'll
00:43:57 ◼ ► do it. - Once this is rolling, what you get is you get the A12 or the A14 based stuff, and it rolls
00:44:03 ◼ ► out to some computers, and then you do the A15 based stuff, and it rolls out to some computers,
00:44:07 ◼ ► but maybe there are also some low-priced computers that are using the A14 at that point that are max.
00:44:12 ◼ ► Like once you, once you start rolling out and you've got a chip family every year, it does allow
00:44:17 ◼ ► them to dip back and say, "We're going to actually make this with a slower chip from a past year
00:44:21 ◼ ► that we built," but it, it keeps, they control the cadence, they control the cycle, they know that
00:44:26 ◼ ► this is going to, this stuff, just like their OS releases, this is going to go into this year,
00:44:30 ◼ ► and we're going to push that off to next year, and they, they start building them, and this is
00:44:34 ◼ ► important, they start building them with a computer in mind. I don't think you can just take an A12X
00:44:40 ◼ ► and stick it in an ARM MAC prototype, right? They made a chip based on the A12X, so you need to go
00:44:47 ◼ ► into the design of the chips knowing where it's going, right? Knowing what your target systems are.
00:44:53 ◼ ► So I think this is the, the reason that this seems like the most definitive report yet is
00:44:58 ◼ ► it sounds like Mark Ehrman's sources, and maybe Debbie Wu's sources, and Ian King's sources,
00:45:02 ◼ ► we don't know. Mark is the one who's famous for having these sources, but Bloomberg's sources
00:45:07 ◼ ► suggest very strongly that this is happening now. They've done the work or are doing the work in
00:45:12 ◼ ► building these A14-based chips, and they've done it with all of those in mind, with the MAC in mind
00:45:18 ◼ ► as well. So all of these chips apparently going to be made at Taiwan Semiconductor in a five-net
00:45:28 ◼ ► Yeah. I, I, I know from, from the people that I know, like listen to ATP and talking with Austin,
00:45:34 ◼ ► like Austin Evans, my cohost and the test drivers, like the smaller the number, the better the chip.
00:45:38 ◼ ► You want to keep making that nanometer process smaller and smaller. Um, and you mentioned about
00:45:49 ◼ ► Sometimes there's stuff in the tweets that's not in the articles, um, that Apple is working on its
00:45:55 ◼ ► own GPUs for this, of course, because I think what you mentioned, I kind of have to probably,
00:46:00 ◼ ► otherwise you're kind of in the same situation, right? Like, right. I'm sure they could use,
00:46:05 ◼ ► uh, an external GPU from somebody, but first off, they stopped doing that on the iPhone and the iPad
00:46:11 ◼ ► a long time ago. And, uh, and second, you're then beholden to some other chip maker for something
00:46:17 ◼ ► that you probably don't want to be. And I'm sure they're pretty proud of their GPU performance and
00:46:21 ◼ ► it's already integrated into their system on a chip. So why would they, why would they change
00:46:26 ◼ ► from that? So next week on this show, uh, we're going to be joined by Mark Ehrman. Yeah. Let's
00:46:33 ◼ ► just get Ehrman on. We'll talk to him. Why not? Let's do it. So Mark's going to join us for a
00:46:37 ◼ ► segment on the show next week where I think I want to cover a couple of things with him. I want to
00:46:43 ◼ ► talk a little bit about meta stuff about the articles that he produces, but I also want to see,
00:46:49 ◼ ► like, this is a good time to talk to Mark, I think, and see what he thinks is going to be important
00:46:55 ◼ ► for Apple over the next six months, because we are building to the time, right? Like we are a
00:47:01 ◼ ► month away, probably maybe nearly from WWDC. Um, stuff starting to ramp up now. So we thought we'd
00:47:07 ◼ ► have him on the show next week and we can talk about it in a little more detail with the man that
00:47:11 ◼ ► knows the stuff. Yeah, I think so. And it's a, it's a good conversation. I've, I've, uh, enjoyed
00:47:16 ◼ ► talking to Mark, um, at, at like Apple events and stuff. So it'll be fun to have him on the show.
00:47:21 ◼ ► So you know what about our max, I'm starting to get like excited about this in the sense of having
00:47:29 ◼ ► the product as opposed to just thinking about it as a thing, right? Like the idea of the potential
00:47:37 ◼ ► power and efficiencies and the new things that could happen because of this is exciting to me.
00:47:48 ◼ ► We could know this is going to happen in about six to seven weeks time. It's, you know, we may know
00:47:54 ◼ ► then like, Oh, we're doing this. And I am excited for that. Right? Like, I think that's going to be
00:47:59 ◼ ► a lot of fun to dig into what's going to be like a new frontier. I'm excited about that very much.
00:48:06 ◼ ► All right. This episode is also brought to you by our friends over at Pingdom from SolarWinds.
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00:49:28 ◼ ► All right, the main event of today's episode, Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro. It's not deja vu.
00:49:36 ◼ ► We talked about it last week, but we didn't have them. And we've had them. For the best part of a
00:49:41 ◼ ► week, we've both been using our Magic Keyboards. We both have the 12.9, right? You don't have an 11.
00:49:46 ◼ ► I don't have an 11. Right. And I think that may make a difference. It definitely seems that people
00:49:52 ◼ ► with the 11 have reported, you know, it doesn't tilt as high, the keyboard's a little more cramped.
00:49:58 ◼ ► It's a different experience. And we can't talk about that because neither of us has that. I have
00:50:03 ◼ ► an 11 iPad Pro, but I don't have this keyboard in the 11 inch. I have an 11 inch iPad Pro, but it's
00:50:08 ◼ ► the iPad I use when I travel, so I'm not using it right now, so I didn't get the keyboard. Maybe at
00:50:12 ◼ ► some point in the future, I will get that keyboard, but it's not in my immediate future because I'm
00:50:17 ◼ ► not using the iPad. So you wrote a great review. Thank you. Spoiler alert, we both really love this
00:50:25 ◼ ► product. Because, again, I don't think that it is a surprise to people that have listened to the show
00:50:32 ◼ ► that me and Jason would really love a two-in-one convertible iPad. We are the target audience for
00:50:39 ◼ ► this in a way, so much so, in fact, that we are the people who sought out alternatives to this in
00:50:47 ◼ ► advance, right? The Brydge keyboard being a great example. That is a product for people who, even
00:50:52 ◼ ► though Apple didn't want you to use your iPad fully like a laptop, that you could do it if you
00:50:59 ◼ ► bought the Brydge keyboard. It suddenly became the shape of a laptop, felt like a laptop. And so we
00:51:05 ◼ ► were already there. So I think this is one of the things that I've noticed in a lot of the coverage
00:51:10 ◼ ► of this is, and I said it in my review, this is a part of Apple's product line for iPad Pro. It's
00:51:16 ◼ ► one of the accessories. They also still make, and I think will still keep making, the Smart Keyboard
00:51:22 ◼ ► Folio because that has it. - Because this is too expensive. Otherwise, you can't have this as the only option.
00:51:27 ◼ ► - Too expensive, too heavy, and a lot of people just don't need this product. Now, you and I look at this
00:51:33 ◼ ► and we're like, "This is perfect for us." But I also see people who really like the Smart Keyboard or
00:51:37 ◼ ► like don't really use the keyboard a lot, but the Smart Keyboard Folio, it's around if they
00:51:43 ◼ ► need it, and it's convenient enough that they're not gonna just go down to the Folio case. They're
00:51:48 ◼ ► gonna, they wanna have that keyboard around. If you're used to that, and you have, and especially
00:51:53 ◼ ► if it's sort of like barely useful for you already, this product is irrelevant for you because, you know,
00:52:01 ◼ ► you aren't even convinced about the Smart Keyboard or you like the Smart Keyboard just fine and it
00:52:04 ◼ ► fits. This is, it's on like a spectrum of you're down with like the Folio case, and then you move
00:52:09 ◼ ► on to kind of the Smart Keyboard Folio, and then you move up to the Magic Keyboard. And it's not
00:52:14 ◼ ► for everybody, but for you and me, Myke, it is absolutely, we were already chasing this with third-party
00:52:20 ◼ ► stuff that didn't do quite the job that this does because, again, this is a first-party product.
00:52:27 ◼ ► Like Apple gets the advantage of designing all the hardware and software around their concept.
00:52:32 ◼ ► Like one of the things that we both gravitated toward the Bridge Keyboard for was the fact that
00:52:41 ◼ ► it enabled flexibility in the angle, right, like a laptop hinge. Yes. The Smart Keyboard Folio had
00:52:51 ◼ ► two fixed positions which was less adaptable. The Bridge Keyboard has more adaptability than
00:53:00 ◼ ► the Magic Keyboard because you could basically open it up flat, right, like a laptop. What do you think
00:53:06 ◼ ► about the available angles that you have with the Magic Keyboard? Right. I will say Apple hasn't made
00:53:13 ◼ ► a laptop you could lay flat in a long time. I think maybe the Titanium PowerBook was the last one to do that.
00:53:18 ◼ ► Close to. But you can open it pretty wide and this one you can't. And I, my gut feeling is that in
00:53:29 ◼ ► most scenarios, especially when I'm writing and I'm using it in my lap, that I open it fully and
00:53:35 ◼ ► that's the right angle. And I could use a little bit more actually that it won't give me, but
00:53:44 ◼ ► given the feeling, you can actually feel the weight distribution on your lap when you're using it
00:53:55 ◼ ► a little bit. And to me that says any more, any further back and it's going to tip over. Like it's
00:54:02 ◼ ► outside the realm of safety. So when I adjust it all the way out, I would like to make it a little
00:54:09 ◼ ► bit more and it's disappointing but I get why it's not because as with so many things, this keyboard
00:54:15 ◼ ► is engineered exactly. Like you can tell all of these decisions were made in order to get it to
00:54:21 ◼ ► be what it was and that if they pushed it a little more it would all unravel. Because it's very, very
00:54:27 ◼ ► carefully, yeah, it was very carefully done. So I have rarely found a use for lower angles than that.
00:54:36 ◼ ► I generally just open it up in one go all the way to the full angle. There was one occasion where I
00:54:41 ◼ ► was kind of like laying down on the bed and I was watching a video and I didn't take it out of the
00:54:45 ◼ ► case, which I probably should have done, but I just sort of tilted it down and I did it that way.
00:54:49 ◼ ► And it's great that that flexibility is there. You can actually tilt it all the way back so it's
00:54:52 ◼ ► facing toward the keyboard. Like so you can't see it at all. You could do that if you really want to.
00:54:57 ◼ ► But yeah, it works for me. I wish it was a little bit more, but again, I can't speak to the 11,
00:55:04 ◼ ► which is my understanding doesn't quite open as much. So I feel pretty much the same. I would
00:55:10 ◼ ► love it to be a little more just because I always want more. But I am really pleased about the fact
00:55:18 ◼ ► that I have completely flexible adjustability within the angles that it provides. So I can move
00:55:24 ◼ ► it a little bit if I want to. And I have found that like if I'm sitting on the couch, I will have
00:55:31 ◼ ► it a different angle than if I'm sitting at my desk. Like I do move it and I like that I have
00:55:35 ◼ ► the freedom of moving it to exactly what I want rather than just within two areas. But I would
00:55:42 ◼ ► like more. I would love to see in the future, right? Like revisions on the design that allow for
00:55:48 ◼ ► more flexibility than what we currently have, just because why not? That's what I would want
00:55:53 ◼ ► in a version two of this product. But I am happy with what I've got. But again, I would love more.
00:55:59 ◼ ► Do you, you've used it in a lot of instances. I've used it on the couch, I've used it in a
00:56:07 ◼ ► - Yeah, I do more or less. I mean, like I said, I think I feel like there's a little bit of a
00:56:13 ◼ ► rolling toward the back. Again, it doesn't ever leave my lap, but I can tell that the weight on
00:56:18 ◼ ► the flat surface, the perpendicular typing surface is a little bit toward the back, which it is. But
00:56:26 ◼ ► it seems very stable to me. It seemed quite pleasant. It's different feeling than like the
00:56:32 ◼ ► bridge or like a laptop, but that's mostly due to the fact that they've got this double hinge thing
00:56:37 ◼ ► where it's for the screen, which is the iPad, is closer to you than a laptop screen would be.
00:56:44 ◼ ► Because a normal laptop hinges all the way at the back and that's where the tilt is. And then,
00:56:48 ◼ ► so the screen is all the way at the back. And this one, it pops up and then it angles in.
00:56:58 ◼ ► - Yeah. And so like, I feel like when I'm using it on softer surfaces, say, right? Like if I'm
00:57:08 ◼ ► sitting down on a couch and down on a chair, on the bed or whatever, it's somewhere in between
00:57:14 ◼ ► the smart keyboard folio and a laptop and like how balanced it feels, right? Like it's not exactly
00:57:20 ◼ ► the same as a laptop because it is weighted differently, right? There's weight in the top
00:57:25 ◼ ► rather than in the bottom. - Right. I'd say it's top heavy. And I mean, even the bridge doesn't
00:57:30 ◼ ► quite feel like a laptop because the screen part is so much heavier than a laptop screen is.
00:57:54 ◼ ► I'm really shocked to get my head around. I've been waiting for and haven't seen a tear down.
00:58:01 ◼ ► - Yeah, for sure. It's an interesting product. It is engineered differently to do the same thing,
00:58:11 ◼ ► if that makes any sense. Like it really is. I mentioned this in the review. It really is a
00:58:17 ◼ ► laptop. Like you put the iPad on this thing, it's just a laptop. We talk a lot about the two hinges,
00:58:23 ◼ ► but in practice, when I use it, I open it up and I open, I move through both hinges. It just moves
00:58:30 ◼ ► smoothly open. And then it looks like a laptop when you're typing on it, even though it's floating
00:58:34 ◼ ► over the keyboard a little bit from your position, looking down at it, it just looks like a laptop.
00:58:40 ◼ ► It does everything like a laptop does. And then when you're done, you can grab it on the back and
00:58:46 ◼ ► fold it down and it closes again. Yes, there are two hinges there, but it just closes like a
00:58:51 ◼ ► laptop. And then you carry it around like a laptop. So they've done a lot of very weird
00:59:04 ◼ ► "Whoa, I'm using a strange thing that's kind of like a laptop." But not there. For me, at least,
00:59:09 ◼ ► it's not in the uncanny valley where it doesn't seem like a laptop or an iPad anymore. It's in
00:59:14 ◼ ► between. I think they kind of nailed the laptop feel of it. It is an iOS laptop when you're using
00:59:19 ◼ ► it, iPadOS laptop. Part of the laptop-ness of it. And it's funny, like most of the conversations
00:59:24 ◼ ► that I hear about it, most conversations I have just barely talk about the actual keys on the
00:59:29 ◼ ► keyboard. I know, right? Because there's so much other stuff going on. And we've had keys,
00:59:35 ◼ ► we've had keyboards for the iPad forever. We've had third-party keyboards for the iPad,
00:59:39 ◼ ► including the Brydge keyboard. It's less novel to have those keys. The keys, although on an Apple
00:59:52 ◼ ► - And I think that's part of it, right? So much of the keyboard discussion in our community over
00:59:56 ◼ ► the last few years has been around how bad a keyboard is. But this keyboard is perfectly good.
01:00:03 ◼ ► It's great. In as good as a keyboard can be. So I think that's why I haven't been focusing on it so
01:00:10 ◼ ► much. But it feels really nice. I prefer it to the smart keyboard. I prefer it to the laptop
01:00:17 ◼ ► keyboards I've used recently. It's close to the 16 in the way that it feels. And I like that keyboard
01:00:23 ◼ ► in the same way that it was like, "This is a keyboard," rather than, "I don't know how I feel
01:00:29 ◼ ► about this with the other MacBook Pros." Right? - I feel like it just fades away. It is reminiscent
01:00:33 ◼ ► of the 16 and the new MacBook Air keyboard. It is reminiscent of the old, like my beloved old 11-inch
01:00:40 ◼ ► MacBook Air keyboard. I actually took the 11-inch MacBook Air out and held it up right next to this
01:00:46 ◼ ► thing. And the two things I noted, this is the 11-inch Air, by the way, remember that, the old
01:00:50 ◼ ► 11-inch Air. - The old favorite. - Yes, the old favorite. The Air is wider than this thing is.
01:00:55 ◼ ► It's not as tall, but it's wider. The keyboard is exactly the same size. It is a full-size keyboard,
01:01:02 ◼ ► which is a little bit scrunched on the 11-inch model. But here, it's the full-size thing. And,
01:01:09 ◼ ► you know, and it weighs three pounds, so it weighs more. If weight and size are an issue,
01:01:13 ◼ ► look at the 11, although I'm interested in the fact that I've heard a lot of people who are the
01:01:17 ◼ ► 11 users who seem, again, it's just anecdotes. I don't know what the long-term story is gonna be,
01:01:24 ◼ ► and I haven't seen it. But the 11-inch users seem a little less charmed by it than the 12.9 users.
01:01:31 ◼ ► And I wonder if it's just not quite as nice because it's smaller, but it's certainly lighter.
01:01:36 ◼ ► But anyway, my point is, I look at that 11 Air, and I look at this keyboard, and they're very close.
01:01:44 ◼ ► And they're not quite the same, but they're very close, and that's nice. Except they're lacking
01:01:49 ◼ ► the-- this lacks the function row, which on the Air is these little tiny like quarter-height,
01:01:53 ◼ ► third-height keys, but they're there for you to adjust brightness and volume and stuff. And I know,
01:01:58 ◼ ► I can see why they didn't put them on this, because you reach that high up, and your fingers are gonna
01:02:05 ◼ ► start to hit the iPad that's hanging over, because the iPad's basically hanging over the number row.
01:02:09 ◼ ► So there isn't any room. It is balanced on the head of a pin. Again, like I said, everything here
01:02:16 ◼ ► has a reason for being what it is. But I am frustrated that Apple did not do a tweak in
01:02:23 ◼ ► software to allow us to assign some sort of keyboard adjustment for those common things
01:02:31 ◼ ► like backlighting and screen light and media controls. Like, all they would have had to do
01:02:36 ◼ ► was add a function key to the options that you could remap those various keys to. So I could
01:02:45 ◼ ► take the globe key and turn it into a function key, and then use that with the number row to
01:02:50 ◼ ► control stuff. They could have done something like that. Maybe they will on iPadOS 14. I hope they do.
01:03:01 ◼ ► didn't make it this time. But that's the missing piece here is they don't need to do a function
01:03:05 ◼ ► row. They really don't. But I would like the ability to change my screen brightness and my
01:03:16 ◼ ► - Yeah, the keyboard backlighting thing is an unfortunate situation. This is one of those
01:03:21 ◼ ► things that didn't make it. The fact that you can only adjust it in settings, it should be in
01:03:27 ◼ ► Control Center. For some reason, it just didn't make it into Control Center. But it surely will,
01:03:32 ◼ ► because it's a really silly thing that you have to dig so deep to get it. It just seems funny to me.
01:03:48 ◼ ► That is the benefit and one of the features of a touchscreen laptop. You hear it all the time from
01:04:07 ◼ ► - Yeah, that's it. I get why it kind of breaks apart on the Mac, because the touch targets
01:04:12 ◼ ► aren't there. But having used a Chromebook for a while that had a touchscreen, I didn't
01:04:19 ◼ ► manipulate the interface on that thing with my hands. I used the trackpad. But there are times
01:04:26 ◼ ► where you're like, "I'm just going to scroll," and you reach out and you scroll, and it's perfectly
01:04:30 ◼ ► natural, and your hands are not down on the keyboard. When they're down on the keyboard,
01:04:33 ◼ ► the trackpad makes more sense. But when you're not actively using the keyboard right at that moment,
01:04:43 ◼ ► In fact, I found this thing—I don't know if you've done this—where I immediately started just
01:04:48 ◼ ► not even thinking about it, grabbing the bottom right corner of the iPad, which that bottom
01:04:57 ◼ ► part of it doesn't have anything on it. The case isn't on that. It's come away from that part with
01:05:03 ◼ ► the double hinge, and putting my fingers behind the iPad and then my thumb on the front of the iPad.
01:05:10 ◼ ► So I'm kind of pinching it, I'm kind of grabbing the iPad, and then I'm flicking with my thumb to
01:05:14 ◼ ► scroll a document. I do that all the time now since I started using this thing. It's a very natural
01:05:24 ◼ ► I'm not down on the keys at that point, so that's fine. Whereas in another context, when I'm writing
01:05:29 ◼ ► and my hands are down on the keyboard, and then I'll move with two fingers and I'll do a little
01:05:38 ◼ ► Yeah, I am using all of it, right? I find it really nice to use the Apple Pencil still to do
01:05:46 ◼ ► some scrolling and stuff like that. It all works really, really nicely. And I like that I have
01:05:51 ◼ ► options. This is my favorite thing about this. Options. I want options. I'll talk a little bit
01:05:57 ◼ ► more about the options that I like available to me in a bit. But everyone's talking about the weight,
01:06:02 ◼ ► right? That's the thing. That is the "gotcha" headline, right? "Oh, it's just as heavy as a
01:06:17 ◼ ► And you want to use an iPad OS device like a laptop, and you get this, and then it's the
01:06:23 ◼ ► weight of a laptop. For those of us who use things like the Brydge keyboard, this is not surprising.
01:06:28 ◼ ► This is how it works. If you're going to have something like this that has to counterbalance
01:06:32 ◼ ► the weight of the iPad and has to have full keys and a trackpad and all of that, it's going to weigh
01:06:38 ◼ ► like a laptop weighs. That's just how it's going to be. So it weighs about what the 13-inch MacBook
01:06:46 ◼ ► Pro weighs. And that is... of course it does. I think behind some of that criticism is this
01:06:53 ◼ ► chauvinism about the Mac that, implied in the criticism, is basically, "Look, the only reason
01:07:02 ◼ ► you use an iPad is because it's lighter than a Mac. If they're the same weight, you would just
01:07:07 ◼ ► use a Mac, right?" Like, why? The iPad is obviously inferior to the Mac. The only reason you could
01:07:14 ◼ ► possibly use it is that it offers something that the Mac lacks. But if you put that back
01:07:18 ◼ ► so that they're the same, it's pointless. If it's an A/B comparison where they weigh the same and
01:07:25 ◼ ► they're right in front of you, why would you ever pick an iPad? That is what is implicit in that
01:07:30 ◼ ► criticism. And the answer is twofold, which is, it's one, but I like the iPad and I want to use
01:07:39 ◼ ► the iPad. Even in that scenario, I find value in the iPad. And two is, also I can immediately
01:07:58 ◼ ► there is that idea that like, but you, why would you would never, right? Like, you would never use
01:08:05 ◼ ► a Mac if it had, you know, you only ever would use an iPad if it has these specific advantages. You
01:08:11 ◼ ► would never use it over a Mac because you wanted to. It's like, well, no, that's not how it works.
01:08:17 ◼ ► - No, that's the sign that somebody doesn't get it, is they have decided that the iPad is a lesser
01:08:26 ◼ ► beast that is compromised and that you only use it because it offers something that is not available
01:08:33 ◼ ► elsewhere. And that's their worldview. And then you challenge them with this and they don't,
01:08:39 ◼ ► they just don't get it. And then there are two ways to respond. And one way to respond is to say,
01:08:44 ◼ ► wow, that's really interesting. Why do you prefer the iPad? And the other way to respond is just use
01:08:50 ◼ ► a Mac. Those people are jerks. You know, five years ago, they weren't jerks, three years ago,
01:08:59 ◼ ► they weren't jerks. At this point, if you're still asking that question, leading a life that's that
01:09:04 ◼ ► unexamined and not being curious about somebody's choice to do something different from you,
01:09:11 ◼ ► but just think that it doesn't make any sense. I have lost patience with those people now.
01:09:22 ◼ ► - Myke, we really, is this the thing you tweeted? Because we really need to talk about it.
01:09:26 ◼ ► - Yeah, yeah. So listeners of this show know that I have been using a stand at my desk,
01:09:34 ◼ ► the Clearlook stand for a long time. You use the, what is it called? I always think Verizon. That's
01:09:51 ◼ ► I was thinking to myself, I don't want to keep taking it out of the Magic Keyboard and putting
01:09:55 ◼ ► it in the stand. It's frustrating to me. So then I thought, well, actually, this is just a laptop,
01:10:00 ◼ ► right? So why not use a laptop stand? Because they exist, stands for laptops. And so then
01:10:07 ◼ ► I never need to take it out of the Magic Keyboard case and I have a stand that's easier to use.
01:10:26 ◼ ► it's more comfortable for me. For me, just because I don't, my body doesn't survive very well using
01:10:39 ◼ ► sitting up straight, keyboard in front of me. - Like most bodies, your body does not hold up.
01:10:43 ◼ ► - Some people don't have these problems, right? Like they can, they find their way to do it,
01:10:49 ◼ ► even though, again, really just think about your ergonomics if you're at home. We have a sponsor
01:10:54 ◼ ► fully. They're really good for this. But if you don't use something like that, please be mindful
01:10:58 ◼ ► of this. So I was talking about this. A listener, Thomas, sent me a link to something called the
01:11:04 ◼ ► Roost, which is like a collapsible laptop stand, which is good, but not perfect. It gives me the
01:11:12 ◼ ► height that I want, but not the angle I want because this thing kind of like forces an angle
01:11:18 ◼ ► and I want to have it go back a bit further because the iPad won't, screen won't go back
01:11:27 ◼ ► you'll see that the front feet of the Roost stand that I'm using is sitting on top of another
01:11:34 ◼ ► keyboard, which is just the situation that I'm in. And so I've tried that out. And then another
01:11:41 ◼ ► listener linked to me a product called the Nuluxy stand, which looks bananas amazing, very adjustable.
01:11:49 ◼ ► So I'm getting one of these. It's on the way. So I'm trying different stands. Oh, wow. It is worth
01:11:55 ◼ ► just prefacing all of this, including the setup that you're seeing. This is all temporary. I was
01:12:01 ◼ ► supposed to be in a studio that has VESA arms with laptop stands on, but I can't be there. So I'm
01:12:07 ◼ ► having to set up like a, this is like my, like, I don't know, my, my temporary workspace. Temporary.
01:12:14 ◼ ► Yeah. I want to point out that the key thing that you've said so far, key thing is you seem to always
01:12:23 ◼ ► want your iPad pro in the case. I just don't want to keep taking out and putting in something else
01:12:30 ◼ ► now. Cause I don't need to like before I had to, there wasn't a stand that could hold it and also
01:12:36 ◼ ► hold the smart keyboard. Like nothing would work for that. I'm just differentiating it because like
01:12:40 ◼ ► I, and I think this is a real difference in how people use their iPad. Even like we just said,
01:12:47 ◼ ► we are the same. We really want this product. We are the same. This is a way where we're very
01:12:52 ◼ ► different. I have my iPad in a keyboard case historically, and it probably will go up because
01:12:59 ◼ ► of this product, but like 5% of the time, 2% of the time, not when, when I'm traveling,
01:13:06 ◼ ► which I'm not doing any of right now as we all aren't. And when I'm writing, I put it in the
01:13:12 ◼ ► case, but the rest of the time it's either no case or it's the folio. So it's nothing. You seem to
01:13:20 ◼ ► view this iPad's default state as having a keyboard attached. Yes. So that's a, that's a difference.
01:13:27 ◼ ► But that's just kind of how I've been over time. And I very frequently will take my iPad out,
01:13:31 ◼ ► but most of the time it's always connected to a keyboard of some kind. That's just my default for
01:13:38 ◼ ► iPad. And with the magic keyboard, I prefer it to the bridge keyboard or the smart keyboard.
01:13:44 ◼ ► So I'm finding myself using it like that more. Um, the bridge keyboard, I could have done this
01:13:50 ◼ ► with, I guess, but never had the thought of putting it in a laptop stand. I would just take it out.
01:13:55 ◼ ► Um, that's a good point. I could have done this for a long time ago, but didn't think about it.
01:13:59 ◼ ► Uh, but this, this, I like it more. I just like this whole set up more. Uh, I will mention,
01:14:05 ◼ ► cause people will ask the keyboard I'm using is called the Digma Raise. It is a split keyboard.
01:14:09 ◼ ► It has RGB and it's amazing. I freaking love this keyboard so much. Um, that's just me. I'm also
01:14:15 ◼ ► using a Logitech track ball, an ergonomic track ball and a magic track pad too, all connected.
01:14:23 ◼ ► This is what I love about the iPad, right? Like Federico talks about this, about like modular.
01:14:28 ◼ ► I just love that all the, all the input methods. I can do everything with this now. And it makes
01:14:33 ◼ ► me very happy. Um, I like now that I have the pass-through charging because my keyboard is,
01:14:41 ◼ ► it needs a USB. Uh, unfortunately I need to use a dongle for this, which is hilarious. Um, at some
01:14:47 ◼ ► point I'm going to get a USB-C dock to help me with some of this stuff, but now I can charge at
01:14:53 ◼ ► the same time, which I really, really like a lot. Um, I got the brown key switches. People are asking
01:14:58 ◼ ► me the key switches that I got, but so I am aware that posting a picture like this, I'm doing two
01:15:05 ◼ ► things. I want to show people like how I'm using it, but I am also kind of doing this to, to
01:15:10 ◼ ► annoy people that find this stuff ridiculous. But at the same time, I get a lot of people who are
01:15:19 ◼ ► like in on this too, right? Like they, they, this is what they want their computing life to be.
01:15:24 ◼ ► These like the options that I feel that this device can give. And I want to share the way
01:15:29 ◼ ► that I am using this device. Cause I know I'm out in the edge cases now, but I think it's amazing
01:15:35 ◼ ► that my iPad can do all of this and I can use it the way that I want to. Uh, I think it's
01:15:42 ◼ ► frigging awesome. And I can't wait to, to keep pushing it. I love it. It's so awesome. I love it.
01:15:54 ◼ ► Cause I get that you want to keep it in the case all the time and not remove it and then put it in
01:16:01 ◼ ► a stand and then take it back out and put it back on this, even though that's very easy to do.
01:16:06 ◼ ► That said, that was my initial reaction to this is might just take it out and put it in a stand.
01:16:13 ◼ ► It's, it's going to be better. You don't have to have like a laptop stand. You're not going to type
01:16:18 ◼ ► on the laptop stand. You're just going to let it sit there. So why, why not just remove the iPad
01:16:23 ◼ ► and put it on a stand? I think it would look less ridiculous. I don't care about how it looks. Yeah,
01:16:29 ◼ ► I know. I'm just, I think it would look less ridiculous and it would probably be better
01:16:33 ◼ ► suited to the task. You could get the screen a little bit closer to your face. Um, but you know,
01:16:38 ◼ ► you do you, and I do understand. Well, but it's the thing I am restricted by screen distance by
01:16:44 ◼ ► my keyboard. That's true, but this is going to, this restricts it even further, right? This puts
01:16:48 ◼ ► the screen even further away from you. Yeah, but I think when I'm using it in a stand, it doesn't
01:16:53 ◼ ► feel like it's far away. All right. I just, for me, I look at this and I think I, so we talked
01:16:59 ◼ ► about flexibility for me, the beauty of the iPad is that mostly it's just on its own and then I'll
01:17:05 ◼ ► add it to the keyboard or I'll add it to a doc when I want to work in that configuration. But
01:17:10 ◼ ► I see where you're coming from here, which is as far as you're concerned, the default configuration
01:17:14 ◼ ► of your iPad is in this case. And so why take it out if you don't have to? And I get that. That's
01:17:20 ◼ ► just not how I use it. Right? Like it may be that in a few months time, I'm saying, you know, I want
01:17:25 ◼ ► to just put it in there when I want, but like right now, like, no, this is what I want. I want
01:17:28 ◼ ► the default to be in. It's like, this is like a laptop now that is the default and then move from
01:17:34 ◼ ► there and see what that's like. Okay. I've been very happy with it so far because I found myself,
01:17:39 ◼ ► even sometimes just like, I would just use the track pad on the, on the laptop. I don't know
01:17:43 ◼ ► why. It's just what I want to do in the same way of like, you've got it in the case, just go on the
01:17:47 ◼ ► screen. So like I am enjoying this experience so far. I'll keep pushing it and see where I go.
01:17:54 ◼ ► I think not enough is being made of the fact that you, in addition to an Apple pencil and
01:17:58 ◼ ► a touch screen and a track pad, have two other pointing devices on your, on your table. I think
01:18:04 ◼ ► that's an important point too. Oh, so good. And you know what, if you could put your Wacom tablet
01:18:09 ◼ ► and attach it and that would work. You do that too. I would, but you would do, you would do that
01:18:13 ◼ ► too. You'd have all of the input devices because on my iMac right now I have a Wacom, a magic track
01:18:18 ◼ ► pad and a Logitech vertical mouse. Yeah. See, because it's that. So it's, it's you, it's you,
01:18:25 ◼ ► you like all, like you said, you like choices like the tweet says. I, if there's one thing I love
01:18:31 ◼ ► with my computers, it is choices. I get to make choices. Like even just using the iPad the way
01:18:37 ◼ ► that I do for as much as I use it for is just a choice that I make that I enjoy. Right? Like
01:18:42 ◼ ► right now I have a Logitech webcam packed and attached to my iMac because I like the choice
01:18:49 ◼ ► that that one's better than the one built into my iMac. You know, I kind of have in me the
01:18:56 ◼ ► thing that makes people want to build PCs. Like I have that in me, you know, like that is like
01:19:03 ◼ ► that choice mentality, which doesn't always fly with being a fan of Apple products. But I feel
01:19:10 ◼ ► like as a devoted iPad pro user, I get to make more weird choices at the moment than a Mac user
01:19:18 ◼ ► would. Like I get to be super weird with my device and do like strange things like what I'm doing
01:19:26 ◼ ► right now. But it brings me joy to do that. Like I have a very weird computer setup. I have a split
01:19:36 ◼ ► keyboard made out of aluminium that is RGB, right? That plugged in via a USB-C split cable to a
01:19:45 ◼ ► dongle that's regular USB to go into my iPad. And that's how I type, right? It's like, and I'm using
01:19:52 ◼ ► a trackball, right? Everyone else is using either the MX Master or a trackpad. And I'm like, no,
01:20:00 ◼ ► no, I'm going to use a trackball. I love it. And then I got my Apple pencil. I'm scrolling with the
01:20:05 ◼ ► Apple pencil. I'm just, this makes me happy. The only thing you're missing here is the full
01:20:11 ◼ ► Vitici of having it be an external screen that's mirrored that you're driving. Well, there's a
01:20:17 ◼ ► screen behind it. I thought about it. As soon as I want, I want it to be more than what it currently
01:20:23 ◼ ► is. Like the, the, the, the external display support. Um, yeah, I want a second screen.
01:20:33 ◼ ► Magic keyboard is amazing. You're beta testing all of this stuff for when you get back in your
01:20:39 ◼ ► studio too, right? That's, you will have had this chance to experiment. This is all very experimental.
01:20:45 ◼ ► This is an excellent job trolling on Twitter. Just good job. Good job. You got it. It's like,
01:20:54 ◼ ► fun. Right. Uh, but anyway, let's wrap this magic keyboard discussion up. Okay. Effectively. Why
01:21:00 ◼ ► should you buy it? You should already, my feeling, I just want to say that you should already know
01:21:05 ◼ ► you want this product before you buy it. Don't buy this $300 keyboard on a lock because it's not what
01:21:13 ◼ ► it's for. I mean, you can return it if you don't like it and you could do that. You can try it if
01:21:17 ◼ ► you're curious. It's a shame that there aren't stores open. So you could go in and try it at the
01:21:21 ◼ ► store, but you know, you really, yeah, you should have some inkling that using an iPad as a laptop
01:21:27 ◼ ► is a thing that you, you should, you actually might want to do. Yeah. Like you probably know you are
01:21:34 ◼ ► this type of person, right? Like that, that would want this product. There are other options. The
01:21:38 ◼ ► smart keyboard is still a good keyboard. The OG bridge keyboard is still a great option. Get a
01:21:43 ◼ ► trackpad and mouse and you'll be happy. Yeah. There are lots. I mean, I've, I've talked to
01:21:47 ◼ ► a few people where I've said, if your primary use case is at a table or a desk and you don't
01:21:55 ◼ ► anticipate using this as a laptop, don't get this. This is a laptop shape. The world you've got one.
01:22:02 ◼ ► Now the world is full of accessories that try to make laptops more ergonomic for a desktop.
01:22:08 ◼ ► The beauty of the iPad is it's not a laptop. It can become a laptop. It can also be put in a stand
01:22:14 ◼ ► with an external keyboard and, and trackpad and be a much more ergonomic match for a desk. So
01:22:22 ◼ ► only get this. If you're planning on using it like a laptop, if you're planning on using as a desktop,
01:22:27 ◼ ► don't spend the money on this, get a, get a stand and a keyboard that you probably already own and
01:22:33 ◼ ► a trackpad you may already own and do it that way instead. I want to wrap this up with a quote from
01:22:39 ◼ ► the end of your review, which I like a lot. Uh, Apple now sells two more laptops and 11
01:22:44 ◼ ► inch model. It starts at $1,098 and a 12.9 inch model that starts at $1,348. Those are pro laptop
01:22:51 ◼ ► prices, but guess what? The iPad pro is a pro laptop now, if and when you want it to be beautiful,
01:22:56 ◼ ► Jason, I love it. That really sums it up for me. So I wrote that out in the backyard, sitting under
01:23:01 ◼ ► my redwood tree with the, uh, using the iPad pro as a laptop. Yeah, it is. This comes back to the
01:23:07 ◼ ► thing about the, it weighing like a laptop, like judge this as a laptop. I mean, there's mitigating
01:23:12 ◼ ► circumstance, which is if you've got a 2018 iPad pro, you don't actually have to buy the iPad again.
01:23:17 ◼ ► You just have to buy the, uh, the, the keyboard. So that's good. But in reality, like judge this as a
01:23:26 ◼ ► laptop, do you want an iPad that can also be a laptop? You will pay laptop prices. It will weigh
01:23:32 ◼ ► like a laptop does because you're making your iPad into a laptop. It doesn't have to stay there.
01:23:37 ◼ ► You can, you can take the iPad out. That's great. And if this is overkill for you, guess what? Apple
01:23:44 ◼ ► makes another keyboard that's lighter and thinner. It's not as, not as nice, but it's still nice.
01:23:49 ◼ ► There are third parties. Like that's the beauty of this is when Apple makes a laptop, like we know
01:23:54 ◼ ► from the butterfly keyboard thing, you're kind of stuck, right? Like you get what they give you. And
01:23:58 ◼ ► if you don't like it too bad, that's not entirely true with the iPad because Apple is giving you
01:24:04 ◼ ► more choices. Imagine if Apple made two different keyboards for the Mac book line, right? We could
01:24:10 ◼ ► choose a magic keyboard or a butterfly keyboard. Like, well, they don't do that, but they do that
01:24:16 ◼ ► for the iPad. You can choose or, or no keyboard. Bring your own keyboard. B Y O K A M. Was that it?
01:24:28 ◼ ► Sure. Bring your own keyboard and mouse? Display keyboard and mouse, but you can bring your own
01:24:43 ◼ ► It's a great idea. Great idea. What a wonderful idea. But let me thank our final sponsor of this
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01:25:46 ◼ ► next project. Once again, that's linode.com/upgrade and the promo code upgrade 2020 for that $20
01:25:53 ◼ ► credit. Thanks to Linode for the continued support of this show and Relay FM. And we now will do some
01:25:59 ◼ ► hashtag ask upgrade questions. Let me start with Jared. Choose only one. Do you choose your current
01:26:07 ◼ ► iPhone, no AirPods or an iPhone SE with AirPods? My answer should come as no surprise. I'll choose
01:26:15 ◼ ► the iPhone SE with AirPods because I really like AirPods and I don't use my phone that much and it
01:26:20 ◼ ► would be fine. I would miss AirPods the most, I think. I'm going to say AirPods Pro. I've been
01:26:27 ◼ ► getting real good use out of the noise canceling recently. Me too. Me too. And I would miss those
01:26:34 ◼ ► desperately, which I think says something interesting that I can't yet put my finger on,
01:26:40 ◼ ► like why I feel that way. Like I think part of it is like, I really do feel like I, it would
01:26:46 ◼ ► frustrate me in a bunch of ways, but I could live with the iPhone SE, especially now, this new one.
01:26:51 ◼ ► The older one might have been a bit more difficult, but I really, really love my AirPods Pro.
01:26:58 ◼ ► But if you were on public transit every day, back in the old times, I mean, that's the thing is
01:27:05 ◼ ► right now we're also not out and about very much. And so the phone is less- But I'm still using it
01:27:08 ◼ ► a lot because like things are going on in my house that I don't want to have to listen to.
01:27:13 ◼ ► Sure. Okay. I'm not going to ask more about that, but- And there's conversations and they're not,
01:27:18 ◼ ► you know, it's like, I want to focus. Oh yeah. I'm using them too. I'm just saying that
01:27:25 ◼ ► our phones are not necessarily the most important product at the moment compared to some other
01:27:30 ◼ ► scenario, but I would still have a phone and I'm not as attached to my iPhone as I am to
01:27:46 ◼ ► I don't know where Eric's traveling, but this was a recent question. I currently travel with
01:27:50 ◼ ► just an 11 inch iPad Pro and a smart folio and carry a magic keyboard. I want to add a pointing
01:27:55 ◼ ► device to my setup. Is a magic mouse enough or should I spring for a magic trackpad or Bluetooth
01:28:01 ◼ ► mouse? I think if you want to stick with this device, if for some reason you don't want to move
01:28:06 ◼ ► to a magic keyboard and you do sound like a magic keyboard person, but if you don't want to, I would
01:28:12 ◼ ► recommend the magic trackpad. I think it's the best experience out of all three options that you
01:28:18 ◼ ► have posed. The magic mouse, I hate that mouse. It is uncomfortable and I don't know why anybody
01:28:37 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't use mice at all, so I can't really help you there. The magic trackpad support is
01:28:44 ◼ ► great and I agree it's worth considering if you want to travel with the magic keyboard for iPad
01:28:51 ◼ ► Pro, but failing that and you already have a magic keyboard and you already have a smart folio,
01:28:55 ◼ ► um, I would, I would see if a magic trackpad too would work for you because that might be the
01:29:03 ◼ ► nicest thing. You gotta have enough room for it, right? You gotta put it next to that keyboard,
01:29:07 ◼ ► but I think that's going to be a pretty nice experience. Benjamin asks, I just got a Kindle
01:29:12 ◼ ► Oasis and I cannot find a grip that I like. The ridge isn't sharp, but it's not smooth and my
01:29:17 ◼ ► fingers constantly feel it, but pulling them back to just the thicker side doesn't feel stable for
01:29:21 ◼ ► me. Jason, how do you hold your Kindle Oasis? I, you know, I hold it between my thumb and my
01:29:28 ◼ ► other finger, sort of like I was describing for the iPad Pro, um, on the, on the smart or the magic
01:29:33 ◼ ► keyboard. And I, I actually keep my fingers resting on the next page button and I just keep
01:29:40 ◼ ► clicking it as I read and it doesn't, it doesn't bother me at all. And then I'll flip it to the
01:29:45 ◼ ► other hand and read with that hand sometimes and then move it back and it's just not that big a
01:29:50 ◼ ► deal. So I don't know if I've got any, any great advice here. You could try, you could try a case,
01:29:55 ◼ ► you lose some of the thinness that way. I do have a case that I, that I travel with, or you could try
01:29:59 ◼ ► a pops up socket. I have a pop socket on my Kindle Oasis, which I've used very sporadically, but I
01:30:10 ◼ ► Siddharth says, I was reading an article about how advertising has been affected significantly
01:30:18 ◼ ► supported. Do you have any thoughts on how this affects the ecosystem as a whole? This is a very
01:30:24 ◼ ► interesting subject, obviously to me and to Jason. There's a couple of things here which are
01:30:29 ◼ ► interesting to me. So the trends will tell you that podcasting is down, right? Uh, but a lot of
01:30:36 ◼ ► the trend data that I've seen is that there are certain areas where it isn't and technology
01:30:40 ◼ ► podcasting has remained incredibly stable. People are still listening to these types of shows,
01:30:45 ◼ ► shows that are listed in the technology category. So thank you for continuing to listen. Um, I mean,
01:30:51 ◼ ► I would say, I don't know about you, Jason, with the incomparable, but I haven't seen any
01:30:55 ◼ ► significant downturn in the listenership. Right? No, not really. No. It seems to be unchanged.
01:31:01 ◼ ► The advertising stuff is difficult. Um, there are going to be changes, I think, as time goes on,
01:31:08 ◼ ► like budgets are being frozen, they're being reassessed. So I would suggest if you enjoy
01:31:13 ◼ ► independent podcasting, now would be a really good time to look into membership programs that you
01:31:18 ◼ ► could support. Like for example, if you look in our show notes, you will find a link to support
01:31:23 ◼ ► upgrade, or you can go to relay.fm/upgrade and you can become a relay.fm member. There's lots of
01:31:28 ◼ ► wonderful benefits for that. And if you support upgrade, support this show, you can support any
01:31:32 ◼ ► show, but that's kind of where I think we are. Like it is going to affect it. I don't know how
01:31:37 ◼ ► much it's going to affect it. Time will tell. I just wanted to point to Marco's, um, post about
01:31:44 ◼ ► Overcast. Basically Marco Arment looked at this and said that the weekday peaks are down. Weekend
01:31:51 ◼ ► listening is largely unchanged and you know, overall he, and he's got an earlier audience
01:31:55 ◼ ► than the mainstream podcast audience, but they're down, but not as much as you'd think. And I think
01:32:00 ◼ ► that matches the anecdotes that I've heard where I've heard from people who have lost all their
01:32:05 ◼ ► podcast time because they're not commuting anymore. And I've heard from other people who
01:32:08 ◼ ► are desperate for more podcasts now because they have so much podcasting time because they're stuck
01:32:13 ◼ ► at home and it depends on your kind of lifestyle and how you consume podcasts. So at least for our
01:32:24 ◼ ► it strikes me that the big issue is not going to be, Hey, people aren't listening to podcasts,
01:32:29 ◼ ► therefore podcasts are going to be hurting. It's more likely, Hey, the economy is in bad
01:32:34 ◼ ► shape right now. It's basically stopped and that's going to make it bad for advertising. And I think
01:32:40 ◼ ► that's the, again, with technology, so many of our advertisers are cloud-based and they're tech-based
01:32:46 ◼ ► and they're, they're more like, they're still operational even now that this is all going on.
01:32:53 ◼ ► But, you know, this is such a huge economic issue going on right now around the world where the
01:33:00 ◼ ► economy is basically stopped in large sectors that those are going to have lots of knock-on effects.
01:33:05 ◼ ► And so it's impossible to imagine that it won't affect us, um, at some point in some way,
01:33:24 ◼ ► significant reductions in marketing spend, like coming towards us. So we're working it through
01:33:31 ◼ ► as best we can, but if you do want to support our shows via the membership programs, please do. And
01:33:37 ◼ ► we're working on, we're working on some stuff there that will be announced in over the coming
01:33:41 ◼ ► weeks, like extra things. So it will be, it's a good time to sign up. And Majd asks, what Mac
01:33:51 ◼ ► My answer is BB edit. Because I use BB edit to write most of the things on the Mac. And while
01:34:00 ◼ ► I have text editors on iOS that I use, um, BB edit has so many features that I use that I,
01:34:08 ◼ ► I just have not been able to replicate. And I don't think it ever will. I think Rich Segal has,
01:34:14 ◼ ► has decided that he has no interest in doing that, which is a shame, but it's been so long now that I
01:34:20 ◼ ► assume it's never going to happen, but that's the one not made by Apple that I would want the most
01:34:25 ◼ ► on my iPad, because then I would have my text editor on both platforms and I wouldn't have to
01:34:29 ◼ ► worry about it. And all the features would be there. Audio hijack, because if I had audio
01:34:35 ◼ ► hijack, it would mean I could re I would be in a position to be able to record podcasts on my iPad.
01:34:40 ◼ ► That's my answer. Assuming that Apple, so I answered in a realistically, it could be there.
01:34:48 ◼ ► Yours would be my answer in the unrealistic category of I would like that, but that requires,
01:34:53 ◼ ► of course, Apple to completely change its operating system in order to allow access to the audio.
01:34:58 ◼ ► But yes, I, because same reason, because I could do a podcast a hundred percent on iPad if I wanted
01:35:20 ◼ ► I am @imike, I am Y-A-K-E. If you want to submit questions for us to answer on the show,
01:35:25 ◼ ► just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade. Thank you to everybody who does that.
01:35:39 ◼ ► Again, if you want to support the show, there's links in the show notes and you can go to