287: Constant Applause


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From RelayFN, this is Upgrade Episode 287, and today's show is brought to you by Linode, Squarespace, and KiwiCo.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell, Esquire. Hello, Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hello, Myke Hurley, LLC, Limited OBE.

00:00:28   Selection of things right there.

00:00:30   What's your title?

00:00:30   Our #SnellTalk question comes from Zach this week, and we're going to continue on the train.

00:00:34   We've been barreling down over the last few weeks.

00:00:37   Zach wants to know, "What wrist do you wear your watch on, and what side of the Apple Watch do you keep the crown?

00:00:44   So which wrist, and where does the digital crown go?"

00:00:47   How is this not just an Ask Upgrade? I want to know. What makes it a Snell Talk question?

00:00:53   It was in the Snell Talk document.

00:00:55   Okay, all right, fair enough. Left wrist, and I keep the crown on the right side.

00:01:02   Yeah.

00:01:02   Like, you know, a normal person. Sorry, everybody.

00:01:05   Oh, gosh, Jason.

00:01:06   [Laughter]

00:01:07   I'll just state for the record, I guess it's probably worth mentioning here, there are like typical wrists, right?

00:01:15   Like some people wear on the left and some people wear on the right, like there are various reasons for that.

00:01:20   I am exactly the same as you, because that was kind of how I grew up. Even though I am left-handed,

00:01:26   I wear my watch on my left, and I wear it with the crown pointing out to the right.

00:01:30   That just feels like the natural way for me to wear a watch, having worn watches.

00:01:35   It's how I wear my regular watches. It's how I wear my Apple watches.

00:01:38   It's how watches are designed.

00:01:41   It's nice that you can flip it around, and there are people who do that, and that's great.

00:01:45   But like, I wear it the same way I've worn every watch since I got a Casio calculator.

00:01:49   No, before that, since I got a Mickey Mouse watch when I was a kid.

00:01:51   Like, this is how I wear a watch, so that's how I wear it.

00:01:54   David has pointed in the chat room that some people wear watches on the inside of the wrist,

00:01:59   and I do find that one peculiar.

00:02:03   Yeah, I mean, I get, like Craig Hockenberry was talking about how he likes having the crown on the inside,

00:02:12   because he feels it's more natural to sort of spin it with his thumb on the inside.

00:02:16   And, you know, fair enough. I think what's great about the Apple Watch is, because it is a digital watch,

00:02:23   and the software has been built this way, you can wear it on either arm, and you can wear it in either orientation,

00:02:28   and that's great. That's great. But I wear it the boring way.

00:02:33   Yeah, I do hear from a lot of left-handed people who say,

00:02:36   "I don't know how you could wear your watch on your left, but I don't, you know, it doesn't bother me at all."

00:02:45   Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

00:02:47   So, thank you to Zach for that question, and I look forward to all of the feedback.

00:02:51   I would like to just point out for the record that I am accepting of left or right in this one,

00:02:55   because I just want to be on the exact opposite of Jason's position here.

00:03:00   Now, we have some follow-up. It's kind of follow-up.

00:03:03   Apple released what they've called white papers, technical white papers for the Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR.

00:03:09   These are really interesting. I don't recall something like this being released in the past.

00:03:15   They look a lot, okay, a little inside baseball, they look suspiciously like the content that goes in a reviewer's guide

00:03:21   that you get if you get a product from Apple, and they give you a PDF that's like a reviewer's guide

00:03:26   that's got like specs, and it's got a list of features, and it's meant to, you know, help reviewers understand

00:03:32   what's new in the product and all of that. They're giving their spin on it and what they're promoting.

00:03:36   But those can be useful. - And this isn't something to try and guide you specifically.

00:03:42   It's more like if there's information you need, like speeds and feeds, it's all in there.

00:03:48   - This feels very much like that with a slightly lighter touch style sheet.

00:03:54   I mean, seriously, it feels like it may actually even be, because I never reviewed the Mac Pro,

00:03:59   so I don't know what the Mac Pro reviewer's guide looks like, but I have to imagine it basically looks like this.

00:04:04   - Yeah, I mean, the little that I've seen of these types of documents as well, like, it looks exactly like one, right?

00:04:11   It's just like a PDF of a bunch of information, a bunch of images and stuff.

00:04:15   But it did have some interesting tidbits, stuff that we didn't know or stuff that may have changed.

00:04:20   One of those things that Stephen Hackett noted was that the Mac Pro technical overview document stated that

00:04:28   the feet and wheels will be able to be interchangeable via a customer installable kit.

00:04:34   So at some point in the future, people will be able to buy wheels for their Mac Pro if they hadn't already

00:04:41   and put them on themselves, where previously Apple had said that you would need to take it into an Apple store to do this.

00:04:47   So that seems interesting.

00:04:49   - Sure, nice tidbit.

00:04:50   - Yeah, if you want to do that.

00:04:52   - Here's your big insider piece of information.

00:04:56   Apple's product review PDFs, reviewer's guides, are landscape.

00:05:03   And the white papers.

00:05:04   - Portrait.

00:05:06   - We cracked the code.

00:05:08   But they're very similar in that it's all the little bulleted items.

00:05:11   But you're right, there are things to be gleaned in there that we didn't know,

00:05:14   like the fact that you can take off the wheels and put them on yourself,

00:05:16   which means that the wheels are now a third-party opportunity as well, which is interesting.

00:05:20   So look for, you know, like monster truck wheels, something down the road, something like that.

00:05:25   That would be great.

00:05:26   - Oh, yeah, because I guess what that does mean is, like, if it's possible or to change it,

00:05:30   it means other people could add to it.

00:05:33   Because there was that thing where everybody's seen this, I'm sure,

00:05:36   but MKBHD tweeted a video of his Mac Pro just rolling away.

00:05:41   - It's like a shopping cart at the store.

00:05:44   It's just rolling along.

00:05:46   But yeah, it does mean that maybe you pick up, whether it's for cheaper or whether it's that there's a different design.

00:05:53   I would be shocked if somebody didn't come up with, like, their own take on Mac Pro wheels.

00:05:58   - Like snow tires or something.

00:06:00   - I used to have, you know, back in the day, I don't know if I've ever mentioned this here,

00:06:03   but when I had my Power Mac G4, I had for a while this thing that was kind of like a skateboard.

00:06:11   It was like a Lucite thing with wheels on it.

00:06:16   And the way it was designed, it had little plastic things at the ends that basically hooked into the handles on the bottom of the G4.

00:06:24   So you pop it on there, and now it's a rolly G4.

00:06:28   That's how we did it back in those days.

00:06:30   And that was, you know, it's kind of...

00:06:32   There are advantages to having your computer on wheels in certain circumstances.

00:06:36   So it would be interesting to see if...

00:06:41   The Mac Pro, because there are so few of them, presumably, the number of products built specifically for a Mac Pro is going to be fascinating to watch

00:06:56   because on the one hand, there are almost none of them, you know, globally speaking.

00:07:01   On the other hand, it's very modular, so there's an opportunity to make accessories.

00:07:06   And the people who bought the Mac Pro spent a lot of money on it.

00:07:08   So there's potentially a lot of money to be made from each individual one.

00:07:12   So the question is sort of like, how many accessories are made for the Mac Pro and how expensive are they?

00:07:17   Because there's no reason...

00:07:19   Like, if they're spending all the money on the Mac Pro, then the argument is they've got more money to burn

00:07:24   and that you should price everything high so that the Mac Pro-only stuff is worth making and worth selling and worth profiting on.

00:07:32   And I'm reminded of...

00:07:33   If you listen to John Syracuse on ATP talk about his quest to get a hard drive bracket,

00:07:40   and like the only hard drive bracket he can get is this $400, I think, hard drive bracket for the Mac Pro.

00:07:47   And it's kind of ridiculous.

00:07:48   You could totally 3D print one or make one, but right now there's only one and it comes with a hard drive.

00:07:53   And this is one of the things for us to all kind of watch from afar if we're not Mac Pro buyers ourselves

00:08:01   of what ends up being the accessory market for this thing.

00:08:08   And I'm sure Apple would love a thriving third-party accessory market, but how does this sell, especially at the price that it's in there?

00:08:16   You don't even have a kind of prosumer layer who's paying $2,000, $3,000 for it.

00:08:20   It's so expensive that it's a very small market and a very pro market.

00:08:24   So I don't know, it's something fun to watch.

00:08:28   -Upstream, Disney is offering launch pricing discounts for the UK and Europe ahead of the launch of Disney+ on March 24th.

00:08:37   So you can get £10 or €10 off a yearly plan if you sign up for Disney+ now.

00:08:43   This is very similar to what happened in the US.

00:08:46   -For sure.

00:08:47   -I haven't seen any, like, you can get Disney+ with such and such.

00:08:53   Like, because there was, was it AT&T were offering it?

00:08:58   Who was it?

00:08:59   -Oh, I don't know.

00:09:00   Maybe so.

00:09:01   Or maybe it was T-Mobile.

00:09:02   -Yeah.

00:09:02   -T-Mobile does a lot of bundling things.

00:09:05   And of course, in the US, they have ESPN+ and Hulu as well.

00:09:09   So Disney has bundled three services together and that's not available in Europe.

00:09:14   So they're not all, not all their marketing plans are going to follow.

00:09:19   -And the content isn't going to be exactly the same either.

00:09:22   So one thing that hasn't been exactly confirmed, but seems pretty clear based on the way that Disney are talking,

00:09:29   is that for some reason, they're going to be rolling out the episodes of The Mandalorian on a weekly basis.

00:09:34   -What?

00:09:35   -Yeah.

00:09:36   Which is so stupid because the show has already aired, right?

00:09:41   Like, we've already lost out all of the reveals because the internet exploded because of certain characters.

00:09:49   But yeah, we're going to have to watch that weekly.

00:09:51   And also Disney+ outside of the US right now will not include The Simpsons.

00:09:56   So in the UK and Europe, The Simpsons are not included because of The Simpsons being locked in with other providers

00:10:04   like Sky here in the UK and I think in Europe as well.

00:10:07   So Sky has the rights to The Simpsons and that's not changing.

00:10:09   So we won't be getting The Simpsons.

00:10:11   -Class.

00:10:13   -Bob Iger has stepped down as Disney CEO to be succeeded by another Bob who goes by the name Bob Chapeck.

00:10:20   This was, this came, this is an expected thing but came out of nowhere.

00:10:26   Like the news just dropped one day.

00:10:29   -Yeah, they say that they've been talking about it for a while.

00:10:31   This is a big deal.

00:10:32   Like Bob Iger is one of the most kind of popular and well thought of and successful CEOs in the entertainment industry certainly.

00:10:39   You know, his relationship with Steve Jobs goes back a long way.

00:10:42   Like a lot of the Apple Disney stuff and Apple ABC stuff like in the early days of the iTunes store and selling movies and TV.

00:10:49   Of course, they bought, they had a good relationship involving distributing Pixar and then it was kind of a fraught relationship.

00:10:54   And then they bought Pixar and Steve Jobs became a board member and a big shareholder and all that.

00:11:01   Like so Bob Iger's got a long history with Apple, a long history with technology and a long history with the entertainment industry.

00:11:08   He has, he set a retirement date at one point and then extended.

00:11:14   There's been, it's been a conversation for a while now that he was planning on retiring and it was a question of when.

00:11:22   And I think in the statements that have come out after this, it sounds like the big plan was to get through the 20th Century Fox purchase and start figuring that out.

00:11:33   And then he would set a time.

00:11:35   And I think the other thing is they decided on who his successor was.

00:11:38   And there seemed to be a moment where Iger said, well, if we've got this done, let's pull the trigger now.

00:11:43   What he says is let's pull the trigger now, name my successor.

00:11:47   And then I'm going to take, cause he's under contract through the end of next year.

00:11:50   I'm going to take as the executive chairman of the board.

00:11:53   So still the boss, still the boss, but not the CEO anymore.

00:11:57   I'm going to focus on getting our creative endeavors is the phrase that he used right over the next, you know, nearly two years, which is interesting because.

00:12:07   I mean, the way I read that is there is some upheaval in terms of integrating the Fox acquisitions.

00:12:14   And also like, uh, I, I would say what is happening with star Wars is an interesting question.

00:12:20   Cause it's kind of had some issues and like trying to figure out the creative stuff, uh, which is something that he's very interested in and I think has been working on and letting his successor.

00:12:31   Focus on all the other stuff and get up to speed and have him there to answer the questions.

00:12:36   So even though this happened suddenly, it's also kind of been going on for a very long time, the discussion of him leaving.

00:12:42   Um, and I think maybe they, they finally decided that they were at the point where there was no point in, in trying to keep it a secret.

00:12:49   That they had, they had figured out who the successor was and they might as well move on it.

00:12:53   So, you know, it was a, a, a, a not rumored thing that it was imminent and yet everybody has known for quite a while now that Bob Iger was, was planning on leaving.

00:13:02   So it's a big, it's a big deal though, because like I said, Bob Iger has been a, a, a big mover in how Disney has changed its culture, how it embraced technology, working with Apple initially, how it has strategized for Disney Plus, which has put them way ahead of a lot of their competitors who are, who are playing catch up with them now.

00:13:22   So it's a, it's a big deal to see what will happen when this Bob Chapek, who is apparently has been in charge of the theme parks and there, uh, and, and some other stuff and, and theme park people have issues with him.

00:13:33   And he was behind the Disney vault strategy that withheld content from retail and people don't like that except the vault is gone now because of Disney Plus.

00:13:43   But anyway, so, but you know, he's, he's, uh, he's going to be the next, the next one.

00:13:47   So we'll see how that goes.

00:13:48   But, uh, I'm fascinated to see what kind of creative endeavors Bob Iger is diving into over the next nearly two years.

00:13:56   So we'll see.

00:13:57   I did see somebody say this on Twitter.

00:13:59   I don't remember who it was now, but it was a very good point.

00:14:01   Like this is probably what would have happened if Steve Jobs had lived longer.

00:14:07   This is probably the setup that would have occurred at Apple, right? With Tim as the CEO and Steve as the chairman of the board and basically holding a kind of overview of everything that he wanted to.

00:14:18   Right.

00:14:19   And focusing on, yeah, I think it's a good analog.

00:14:21   The difference being that I imagine Steve would have done that forever if he could.

00:14:25   Oh, for sure.

00:14:25   I mean, it wouldn't have been a, he would have just carried on going until he died, which is what he did anyway.

00:14:30   Right.

00:14:30   But, but I do think that that was the plan when they, when they set that up before Steve Jobs passed, Steve Jobs passed away that, um, that that would have been it is like Steve would have focused on the stuff he cared about, which is, which I think was already kind of happening right when, as he was, as he was sick, he was focused on the product stuff that he really cared about.

00:14:49   And Tim ran the business and, and then they, they made that official that Tim is running the business now and Steve's going to be the chairman and that, that seems to be what's happening here.

00:14:58   Except that I don't think Bob Iger will get a, you know, an extension and, and continue to be the creative spelunker on the board through 2022, 23, 24.

00:15:08   I think, you know, he've set a time on it that at the end of December 21, he will, he will leave, but he's got a lot of time to get that part of the house in order.

00:15:17   And I'm fascinated by the idea that he feels like that's what he needs to focus on. And, uh, that to me suggests that we're going to see some very interesting things happen on the creative side of, of Disney in the next, you know, again, 22, 21 months.

00:15:31   Uh, Hillary Duff has publicly asked Disney on her Instagram account by using a note screenshot, which I know is Jason's favorite thing, to move the upcoming Lizzie McGuire reboot to Hulu.

00:15:44   So it can address more adult issues as she is now with a 30 year old woman and she's continuing with the, with the role.

00:15:51   This is fascinating because this is kind of like that Apple story about it.

00:15:55   Does Apple want to be expensive NBC, which seems to have been proven to be completely wrong and sour grapes by somebody because there's all sorts of stuff on Apple TV plus that is rated TV, MA and, uh, there's sex and violence and nudity and all sorts of things.

00:16:09   It's like, no, that was, that was an angry producer who, uh, wanted to, who had some sour grapes, but here we really see it because there's nothing more than PG on Disney plus Disney plus part of the kind of like implicit, uh, content guarantee that's being made by.

00:16:27   Disney is that this is a family service, which means the rougher stuff is not going to go.

00:16:32   Um, and they, the rougher stuff goes on Hulu, presumably because that's where the FX on Hulu thing just launched by the way.

00:16:40   And Disney have already done this.

00:16:41   The reason that she posted this was because there was a, another TV show that got moved to Hulu.

00:16:47   It's called Love Simon.

00:16:50   And all the, all the FX content is going over there and the, and they're doing originals for FX and there's other adult material on Hulu and Hulu is a place where you can get, have racier edgier stuff that is not quite in the.

00:17:02   The Disney umbrella.

00:17:03   And the challenge here is Lizzie McGuire is a Disney channel show.

00:17:07   They want to do a show about where Lizzie McGuire is now, where she's an adult, she's 30.

00:17:13   This is not a new Lizzie McGuire who's 16.

00:17:16   This is Hillary Duff is Lizzie McGuire when she's 30.

00:17:19   And, uh, what, what Hillary Duff says is the whole premise here is dealing with her issues.

00:17:25   We dealt with serious social issues on the old show.

00:17:28   We need to do that now, but now there are adult issues.

00:17:31   There are the additional issues of a woman in her thirties and apparently she and the showrunner, you know, had agreed on this and we're working on it and they did two episodes and it looks like Disney.

00:17:41   Uh, saw those episodes or saw the scripts for those episodes and said, you've got to, you got to cut it back.

00:17:47   You got to make this PG.

00:17:48   And there was so much pushback that it sounds like they fired the show runner.

00:17:51   And, uh, so it's really interesting that the star of the show is basically calling them out and saying, you know, you're, you're having us make terrible creative decisions in order to fit under this umbrella.

00:18:01   But I get Disney's strategy here too, because they're saying, well, wait a second.

00:18:04   The reason we want this on Disney plus is that this is a Disney channel product, a legacy Disney channel product.

00:18:12   And so this, it's a match.

00:18:14   Like it's, it's, it was in the Disney brands, so we should keep it in the Disney brands.

00:18:18   But I also see their side, which is, you know, the remake of Lizzie McGuire with another 16 year old girl should go on Disney plus, but a continuation.

00:18:29   Of Lizzie McGuire, where she's a 30 year old woman trying to deal with all sorts of serious issues as an adult, maybe Disney plus isn't the right place for that kind of show.

00:18:38   So it's interesting to see this conflict and it, the whole thing exists because there's a certain level beyond which Disney is not willing to go with Disney plus.

00:18:47   Like they're not willing to have a content warning for, you know, that this is only for adults on Disney plus maybe they'll.

00:18:55   Get there, but look, we're, we're months into Disney plus.

00:18:58   And we are already seeing that people are chafing at this restriction.

00:19:01   And with almost a million likes on the post on Instagram kind of being Disney's best interest, I think, to just do this is good marketing for the show.

00:19:10   I'm not sure Instagram, uh, votes are, are, are scientific in any way, but I do agree that this is, you know, presumably the people who want to watch.

00:19:20   Hillary Duff as Lizzie McGuire today are adults, right?

00:19:25   Like I grew up with the show.

00:19:26   A Disney version of this, I would watch a like Hulu version of this because I am more interested in actual issues of her as an adult, like in dealing with that.

00:19:38   Then like a, I don't know, like a silly family sitcom, but I see both, I see both sides here because there are people who feel like, well, no, I want the, I want the guarantee of the content.

00:19:50   I would like to watch this show.

00:19:51   I'd like to watch this with my kids.

00:19:52   And I think that that's part of the conception here is they don't want to make a show for kids.

00:19:55   This isn't a show for kids.

00:19:56   This is a show for the people who watch this other show when they're kids, but now they've grown up and they want to deal with serious issues.

00:20:02   This actually is happening now with the, the star Trek.

00:20:06   Show Picard.

00:20:08   So based on a, you know, nineties show, start with the next generation, that was a family show and that's a modern drama and it's TV MA and it's got swearing and some, a little bit of gruesome violence in it.

00:20:21   And there are people like me who are like, well, that's what TV is like now.

00:20:26   And that's a more kind of gritty, realistic view of how the world works.

00:20:31   And it may, you may be jarred by it because you're thinking about the standards of, of a show from the nineties, but we're not in the nineties anymore.

00:20:39   But there are other people who are like, I want to watch Star Trek with my kids and I can't, I can't show them this.

00:20:43   And I, I see that I don't, I don't have that opinion, but I see why that would be troubling to you.

00:20:50   There is already a lot of Star Trek though, right?

00:20:52   There, there is, but this is the, this is the new stuff and all the new stuff so far has been TV MA.

00:20:58   That's actually one of those things that I think they need to, as they expand their product line with Star Trek that they need to do is they need to make Star Trek shows for everybody.

00:21:05   And that means they can't all be mature audiences only.

00:21:08   That's not what they should be doing with Star Trek.

00:21:11   So, you know, they need to make a show that is a little bit more, you know, restrained with what it shows and the language it uses just, just in the mix.

00:21:21   They don't, they shouldn't all, I think all be that way, but I think there should be some that is more, and they're, they are working on like a Nickelodeon show that's animated and there's another animated series.

00:21:30   We'll see what, what its rating is, but I don't know.

00:21:34   It's a conversation that we're having again in streaming, like in broadcast.

00:21:40   There are like in every country, there are like broadcast restrictions, but there are standards in the UK.

00:21:45   You have the watershed times where, you know, certain content can't be shown to like after 9 PM.

00:21:50   Then it's fine in the U S we have, there's a hard limit, like up until 11 PM on certain kinds of profanity and other content.

00:21:59   And then there's also a view, a view of like that nine, nine o'clock, some things can be on and 10 o'clock and you have to have ratings and like it's complicated, but.

00:22:08   There have been some standards for that and on streaming, it's really like.

00:22:12   Open it's wide open.

00:22:14   It really comes back to what does Disney want Disney plus to mean?

00:22:17   And if they're going to do clearly going into this, there was a disconnect about from the producers and the star about what the content could be and what Disney plus thought the content could be either that or Disney plus thought it said, go ahead.

00:22:34   We want you to deal with serious issues and then saw the scripts and went, Oh no, serious.

00:22:39   Uh, fascinating knives out director, Ryan Johnson recently said in a vanity fair interview that Apple does not let quote bad guys have iPhones on camera when doing product placement stuff.

00:22:50   So this is a funny little thing.

00:22:52   Well, I, I get, so yeah, Dan wrote about this in six colors.

00:22:56   Like I get that if Apple's paying.

00:22:59   Because product placement is not, we want to show an iPhone product placement is Apple is giving you money to show the iPhone in your show.

00:23:06   And, uh, I can see them saying, you know, I don't want the murderers.

00:23:11   The reason we're paying you is to have our heroes use Apple products, not the bad guys to use Apple products.

00:23:17   And we're not, you know, you can, the bad guys can use Apple products is my understanding, but Apple's not going to pay you for the bad guys to use Apple products.

00:23:24   And it's funny, Dan, Dan mentioned a great example, which is Steve Carell in the morning show, you know, like everybody in the morning show, they use iPhones and Steve Carell's character.

00:23:32   He is not a good guy.

00:23:35   He is not a good guy, but he's got an iPhone.

00:23:38   So it's like, what Dan says is, is it like only murderers?

00:23:42   Like where's, where's the line there?

00:23:44   I think it's, I think it's a little bit, cause it's Apple show, but it is Apple show.

00:23:49   But, but I think this is a great view into the commerce of this.

00:23:53   Like I was watching, it was leap day on Saturday.

00:23:56   Um, you know, February 29th and I watched the 30 rock episode.

00:24:02   Called leap day, which is a great, hilarious, super weird episode.

00:24:06   I love it.

00:24:07   And you know, that's, there's a huge product placement in that because I'm watching and there's this whole subplot about Tracy going to Benihana because he has a $50,000 Benihana gift certificate that expires at the end of February.

00:24:18   And, um, at the end of the credits, it's like product placement furnished by, you know, Benihana like they paid to be in 30 rock.

00:24:31   Uh, it was super weird, but like product placement happens whenever you see promotional, uh, consideration furnished by whatever that is by Apple, you know, that Apple paid to have their products in there that they actually paid to do that.

00:24:46   And that's why sometimes you see generic tech in TV shows is some, some, some companies, some studios have a, have a, uh, a policy that they won't.

00:24:54   Show brands at all, unless you pay them.

00:24:58   Otherwise they'll, they'll have it be generic, which is why you'll often see a generic computer.

00:25:02   Like here's the clue.

00:25:04   If you see somebody using a laptop, that's very clearly a Mac book and it has a sticker on the logo, Apple didn't pay.

00:25:10   If they don't have a sticker on the logo and you can see the Apple logo Apple paid.

00:25:14   True story.

00:25:17   Apple is developing a limited series about WeWork. It's based on a podcast from the Wondery Network called We Crashed the Rise and Fall of WeWork and Lee Eisenberg of Little America is co-writing and producing.

00:25:30   So this is, I assume going to be a documentary style series.

00:25:34   It's not actually said how they're going to present the content.

00:25:37   Yeah, I don't know.

00:25:38   I don't know.

00:25:38   It could be docudrama kind of style, but I mean, WeWork is such a strange story that I think I'm kind of fascinated by.

00:25:43   I haven't listened to this podcast, but I'm kind of fascinated by it.

00:25:46   I hope there's a whole episode about the guy saying that you can't eat meat on a business trip anymore.

00:25:51   I'm sure there's going to be stuff like that.

00:25:54   That was my favorite WeWork moment is the like, we think you should all not eat meat anymore.

00:25:59   So if you go on a business trip and buy meat at a restaurant, we're not going to cover it.

00:26:04   What?

00:26:05   There's actually, this is like one of multiple WeWork projects.

00:26:08   It's probably going to be like that Fyre Festival thing.

00:26:10   Do you remember like there were multiple Fyre Festival documentaries at the same time?

00:26:14   This will probably be a similar thing.

00:26:15   Did you watch a Little America?

00:26:17   Speaking of Little America, I haven't seen it yet.

00:26:19   No, I haven't seen it.

00:26:19   Okay.

00:26:20   I've, I've only watched two so far.

00:26:22   I, I've actually just been watching it.

00:26:24   Um, and, and I can, it's an anthology series, so every episode is different, but I watched the first two.

00:26:30   It's great.

00:26:30   It's great.

00:26:31   It is, it's, it's, it's touching, but it's really funny.

00:26:36   It's exactly what I would expect from the executive producers of the Big Sick, which is such a great movie.

00:26:43   Um, and it's got that kind of feel, which is, it's about immigrants.

00:26:48   It's about America.

00:26:49   It's about people just being people.

00:26:51   It's funny.

00:26:52   It's, it's good.

00:26:53   I, I've enjoyed, um, both of the ones that I've seen.

00:26:56   So if you haven't seen Little America, maybe circle back, especially, I think, especially if you want to see something that ultimately is kind of uplifting.

00:27:03   Because at least the two episodes I've seen so far, maybe there's a terrible depressing one coming, but the first two I've seen have been really kind of, um, nice and uplifting in the end, which I've

00:27:13   enjoyed.

00:27:14   There's a, the first episode is about a kid whose parents get deported.

00:27:17   And so he runs a, their, their motel himself as a kid for years.

00:27:22   Oh, I remember the synopsis of that one.

00:27:25   Yeah.

00:27:25   Yeah.

00:27:26   And the, and the, the second one is about a girl who is, um, her, her mom is an illegal immigrant and she doesn't have citizenship and they live in a garage and she becomes like a, uh, uh, without spoiling it.

00:27:40   And they're like, she, she learns how to play squash of all things and becomes really good at it and learns a lot of lessons along the way.

00:27:47   And it's funny.

00:27:47   And, uh, yeah, so I'll put a shout out for Little America.

00:27:50   I've been enjoying that.

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00:28:56   It was really, really nicely done, and you could tell that like they had seriously thought things through, which is important because that means that as the adult, you don't need to be sitting there and explaining exactly how it has to happen.

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00:30:03   So we've been talking about this a bit recently and there has been a lovely little rumor, according to what I wouldn't even say rumor, a piece of maybe information.

00:30:13   It's a report. It's a report.

00:30:15   That's just in. It's just in. Breaking news.

00:30:18   Breaking news.

00:30:18   A few days ago, Wayne Mar at the information says that Apple is indeed working on a smart keyboard for the iPad Pro with a trackpad.

00:30:28   This is something that we'd hope to be the case.

00:30:30   This is something that we've long pontificated on and it seems like it's happening.

00:30:35   So just from the article itself, the information source says this is from MacRumors.

00:30:40   The information source says that the keyboard will be made from materials similar to those in Apple's current smart keyboard folio designed for the iPad Pro.

00:30:49   And the Apple is preparing the keyboard for mass production right now and is expected to release the new accessory alongside the next version of the iPad Pro.

00:30:57   Current rumors suggest that the iPad Pro could be refreshed as soon as March and Apple is expected to hold a March event to announce these devices.

00:31:05   That's the kind of the where we think it's going to be right now.

00:31:08   So I want to come back to this in just a second.

00:31:11   Because there was a little we've been talking a little bit about some of the stuff that's coming in iOS 13.4 from the betas about kind of keyboard support.

00:31:19   And Steve Trout and Smith posted a great tweet, which sums kind of everything up about why there is definitely even more smoke to this rumor or to the fire of this rumor.

00:31:30   Steve says iOS 13.4 is most definitely a keyboard release for keyboard access.

00:31:36   New key event APIs for apps, key modifier remapping.

00:31:39   If there's a new iPad coming in a March event, no prizes for guessing Apple have a keyboard story to pitch.

00:31:45   A shiny new smart keyboard seems a given.

00:31:47   And when this full keyboard access thing, that's one of the newer things.

00:31:52   I don't think we mentioned this, but like there are going to be keyboard shortcuts for everything, including rotating the screen, turning off the iPad.

00:31:59   Like it's a there's a lot of stuff going on.

00:32:01   So, yeah, there's a lot.

00:32:03   That's to say that there is a new keyboard.

00:32:06   Right. So we can assume there's a lot of stuff happening.

00:32:08   We've said this, right?

00:32:09   Like seems interesting that you would do it now.

00:32:12   It would make sense if you had a new smart keyboard coming.

00:32:15   So we can assume that there's definitely more keyboard stuff happening.

00:32:18   Apple prioritizes a lot of software updates based on their own hardware.

00:32:21   Right. So if you're watching, you can say, oh, well, that must be a thing now.

00:32:25   Right. So here we go.

00:32:26   But this particular rumor is not just saying that there is going to be a smart keyboard, but that there is also going to be a smart keyboard, which includes a track pad.

00:32:34   And you wrote a great article on six colors where you kind of asked and answered nine questions.

00:32:40   And I want to go through those nine questions and talk about them together.

00:32:43   OK, I should have made a 10, but I counted when I was done.

00:32:47   There were only nine. So I was like, all right, nine.

00:32:49   Nine is fine. There you go.

00:32:50   So that's fine.

00:32:51   All right. The question number one, is this replacing the current smart keyboard or is it priced above it?

00:32:57   Right. I think that's I think that's a good question.

00:33:00   Right. Do they only make one and it's maybe the same price or maybe more expensive?

00:33:04   Or are there two options for you?

00:33:07   You can get your kind of basic smart keyboard.

00:33:10   That's just the one we know that currently exists, which might still be given the shape of the iPad.

00:33:18   Like, are we really expecting the iPad to change shape?

00:33:20   I would imagine it's still going to look like the current iPad Pro and have the same smart connector on the back.

00:33:27   So it's entirely possible that the existing smart keyboard will work on the iPad Pro as now.

00:33:33   So they could keep it around and then make this the premium pro smart keyboard thing.

00:33:39   Or they could be very Apple like and just sweep it away and say, no, everybody gets this one now.

00:33:45   I think that you kind of said the word that's key is pro.

00:33:51   I think this will be smart keyboard pro and it will be a separate, more expensive device because it's probably I mean, what is the current?

00:34:00   How much does it cost right now?

00:34:01   It's not cheap.

00:34:02   I think so.

00:34:02   It's not cheap.

00:34:03   Like the bridge keyboards are way cheaper than the smart keyboard, which is saying something.

00:34:07   Yeah.

00:34:08   So that would be the way to do it is to keep that and maybe even lower that price and then make this more expensive one.

00:34:13   That's got, you know, the rumors are like backlighting is a part of it and then you'd have the pointing device part of it and it would be just like more.

00:34:21   Maybe it's got another another row of keys.

00:34:25   Maybe imagine that like there, there are things that they could do.

00:34:30   Uh, to make it a pro product and price it over that.

00:34:33   And that would be, if I had to make a bet, that would be my bet too is that they'll, they'll sell both, but I wouldn't put it past him to just sweep the old one away and say, nah, you gotta buy the really expensive one now.

00:34:43   And I have a hard time imagining this being sold at the same price.

00:34:47   $200 is the current smart keyboard.

00:34:49   Foli.

00:34:49   Yeah.

00:34:50   I can imagine a product like this at 300 or 350.

00:34:53   I don't know.

00:34:54   Really kind of like just, just juicing those, those numbers, you know, like getting that ASP.

00:35:00   Could be, could be.

00:35:01   Can I get the ASP up, Jason?

00:35:03   It could be 250 and then they could lower the price of the other one.

00:35:06   But again, I feel like that's wishful thinking.

00:35:07   I think one thing that would be interesting is if it would work with previous iPad pros.

00:35:12   Uh, yeah.

00:35:13   I mean, part of me thinks that they're not going to redesign the case and so it should probably work with it.

00:35:20   Well, it depends on, on how they do it, right?

00:35:22   Like if it covers the back, like the folio, then the camera cut out is going to be different.

00:35:25   Oh, well, that's true.

00:35:27   That's true.

00:35:28   You're absolutely right.

00:35:29   If the camera cut out, the camera cut out would have to be different.

00:35:32   And that could, could preclude it from working.

00:35:35   So why would they, why would they make it for both models at that point?

00:35:38   So yeah, that's probably true.

00:35:39   That's probably true.

00:35:40   If they, assuming that it's got a, it's going to have to have a different camera cut out and therefore it's not going to be compatible with the old model.

00:35:48   Um, it, I, I think hadn't really thought about that.

00:35:51   I think that makes it even more likely that there'll only be one.

00:35:54   Uh, question number two.

00:35:57   What does it mean to have included pointer support?

00:36:01   I will read a little quote from your article.

00:36:03   Uh, the information's report says built in track pad, which would imply a keyboard that's pushed forward with a track pad underneath in the wrist area.

00:36:10   The problem is that the current iPad keyboard doesn't have a wrist area at all.

00:36:14   This would require a pretty dramatic rethink of the smart keyboard in order to create a space for a track pad to live.

00:36:21   Right.

00:36:22   It's, it's the smart keyboard now.

00:36:23   That's all there is, is the keyboard part.

00:36:26   And then, and it's, so it's not like the size of, uh, the whole screen, it's a little portion of it, and then it folds over the screen.

00:36:33   So what does it mean if they have to make room for the pointer for like a track pad below the space bar?

00:36:40   Then they they're going to have to change the geometry, which is another question that I have for later.

00:36:45   I guess my question here is there, there have definitely been rumors of at least Apple investigating the concept of a touch sensitive surface on keys.

00:36:55   So the, you know, is it a built in track pad?

00:36:58   Like we know, or is it more like a thing where you put a couple of fingers down on the keyboard and just move your fingers around as you do on the screen?

00:37:07   Could they build that?

00:37:08   Could that be a thing where, where you actually like sort of the whole keyboard is a touch surface.

00:37:13   And if you move with two fingers, it treats it like a mouse instead of like, you know, you're not pressing the keys.

00:37:19   You're just running your fingers over the keys.

00:37:22   Um, I don't know because it's, it will require a complete rethink if they have to make room for an actual track pad below it.

00:37:29   Uh, yeah, I would, it would be super weird to me if they did anything other than actually put a track pad there, right?

00:37:38   Like if the track pad was underneath the keys, I just don't think that I could, can't imagine that being a very nice experience.

00:37:43   I, if, have you ever put two fingers down on the smart keyboard and sort of run your fingers around it lightly without pushing down keys?

00:37:51   You can do it.

00:37:52   It would be, if they could make it work, it would be okay.

00:37:54   I think it'd be strange.

00:37:55   It would be maybe, maybe.

00:37:57   I have no evidence that that technology actually exists is the thing other than that they did a patent a long time ago about it.

00:38:03   So it would be a real surprise if they had cracked that code.

00:38:07   Yeah.

00:38:07   I think to really answer this question, we have to also answer the next question, which is what does a track pad do to iPad geometry?

00:38:15   So what is going to happen here?

00:38:17   I genuinely think that they will just do something which is kind of.

00:38:21   Probably no, which would be a more elegant version of the bridge keyboard model, which is you push the iPad all the way to the very back.

00:38:31   There's some kind of hinge, uh, built into the, the product and you therefore basically make it look like a laptop.

00:38:39   So you have the keyboard that you have currently, but then a track pad underneath it.

00:38:43   That's what I think it will do.

00:38:44   So the problem with that is that, um, they do have the advantage as the platform owner that they could build in hardware into the iPad that connects with the keyboard to create a hinge.

00:38:57   The problem is weight, which is the iPad has a lot of weight.

00:39:03   And if you put the iPad in a laptop style configuration, you have to counterweight it on the cover, which makes the cover the weight of the iPad, which makes it way too heavy.

00:39:14   So I, my guess would be that they're still going to do a fold thing and it might actually be more like the first generation smart keyboards where there are layers.

00:39:24   Cause the second generation is really thin because it's a single layer.

00:39:27   It doesn't fold over the keyboard, but in the first generation they had to do that in order to get kind of like the origami system, right?

00:39:34   So that they could, they could, you could, you know, prop it up with maybe the, maybe the, uh, track pad could fold out.

00:39:40   So maybe, you know, so.

00:39:43   Here's the, um, here's the concern that I have, which is Microsoft solved this problem by putting a kickstand on the surface.

00:39:52   And I hate the kickstand.

00:39:54   I think it's really bad.

00:39:55   I think it's, I think it's ugly.

00:39:58   They're uncomfortable on the lap.

00:39:59   It's there.

00:40:00   They're, you basically can't use them on your lap.

00:40:02   You really need to have them on a table.

00:40:04   Um, and then just the, the action of folding it out and then having to reach around the back and flip open the kickstand and all that is like, I don't like it.

00:40:12   And if you like the surface kickstand, that's great, but I have tried them time and again, and I, I hate it.

00:40:19   I think it's the wrong decision.

00:40:20   So I really hope Apple doesn't go that route with this because it's a, it's a, an accommodation that's kind of bad for everybody.

00:40:28   It's bad for people who don't need that keyboard.

00:40:30   It makes the iPad worse in general.

00:40:32   And then it actually isn't that good even as a stand.

00:40:36   So, um, so yeah, my money is on them doing, unless they have something super clever with the, um, with the keyboard being a touch surface, I think they're just going to have to redesign the folds so that, you know, you unfolded and then fold out this other part.

00:40:52   And then it becomes a, uh, uh, enough of a, uh, a prop on the back that it, it, it stays upright.

00:40:58   Yeah.

00:41:00   It's a good point that you made about the weight thing.

00:41:02   I hadn't really considered that, but I think for me, it's just, I don't imagine, I imagine them putting an actual track pad on this thing so that they would, Apple would need to work out some kind of system to help you balance that somehow.

00:41:16   And you're right.

00:41:17   Like I, I, I reckon if they are going to do this, probably the route that they go is a little bit more like the original where it has some weird origami to it.

00:41:27   But you're able to basically just keep unfolding this thing until you have what you need.

00:41:32   Right.

00:41:32   And I could imagine, I really could imagine like that there is a front part that also folds out, which includes a, a, a track pad somehow.

00:41:41   But I don't know.

00:41:43   I don't know.

00:41:44   I don't, I, it's difficult to imagine, but I would be really surprised if I would just be really surprised if the track pad wasn't as you would imagine it to be, which is a, which is a nice track pad.

00:41:54   Apple makes good track pads.

00:41:55   Me too.

00:41:56   And I'd be surprised if the smart keyboard isn't more or less what we expected to be, which essentially takes it back to the fact that Apple always tries to find interesting ways of just folding over.

00:42:05   And that's been true since the original iPad.

00:42:08   Well, no, since the second iPad, since the smart cover, right?

00:42:12   The original iPad, you had to slide it into a thing.

00:42:14   But, uh, after that they started doing the smart cover and it was all about like, there are these three folds and there's magnets and you turn it around and it does this.

00:42:22   And I imagine that they will just continue to do that.

00:42:25   What kind of keyboard is it?

00:42:27   Right?

00:42:29   Like Microsoft makes keyboards now.

00:42:32   So this rumor, the information report says it will be made from materials similar to those in a smart keyboard folio.

00:42:38   So that would suggest that it will be one of these kinds of fabric keyboards, which honestly it's a good keyboard.

00:42:44   I kind of like it.

00:42:45   It's okay for, for what it is.

00:42:47   I actually think it's okay.

00:42:48   But you know, Microsoft does make some of these keyboards that are like, they actually have key caps.

00:42:53   They actually move more like a traditional key.

00:42:56   But, um, but the fact is you don't have a lot of travel in these cause you want to keep them super thin.

00:43:01   So, um, I think it's worth asking the question, would Apple do something different in order to get backlighting or, um, you know, something like that, but they might also be very happy with the material that they've got.

00:43:13   I don't, I don't know, but it's worth asking the question, right?

00:43:15   Like with the pro keyboard feel like more like a real keyboard than the, the existing smart keyboard.

00:43:22   Yeah.

00:43:23   Is it going to be a magic keyboard or both?

00:43:26   I keyboard, right?

00:43:27   Like which one is it going to be?

00:43:28   Cause if my memory serves the smart keyboard mechanism is similar to the butterfly keyboard mechanism, but it's covered.

00:43:34   So there's no reliability problems completely sealed in.

00:43:36   Yeah, exactly.

00:43:37   And I learned that was reminded of that from our holiday special.

00:43:42   I'd forgotten about that.

00:43:43   Um, but, but you don't, you get the benefits from it because it's covered up, so it's stable and it was fine.

00:43:49   And, uh, really that keyboard works because when you're dealing with the constraints of how thin it is, it's like, oh, you know what?

00:43:56   This is actually perfectly fine.

00:43:57   Um, you, you mentioned there, but this wasn't one of the questions backlighting.

00:44:01   Do you think that that is a, is a thing that could, you could see on this or would you want backlighting on an iPad keyboard?

00:44:07   I generally don't care about backlighting.

00:44:09   I very rarely use it even on the keyboards that I've got.

00:44:12   I mostly have it turned off.

00:44:14   I know people who really, really want backlighting and it's, and it's definitely been on the list of smart keyboard features that people have asked for.

00:44:23   So I think it's worth along with the function row, like it's worth putting on the list of, well, what about backlighting?

00:44:28   And I think I, the challenge is going to be, how do you do that?

00:44:32   Right.

00:44:33   Like, how do you do that on one of these keyboards now, maybe, you know, Apple's very clever, right?

00:44:38   Maybe they have a way where you've got the, you know, the, the key labels are translucent and there's LEDs underneath the fabric that shine through and all of that.

00:44:47   Like that would be great.

00:44:48   I think having backlighting is better than not having backlighting all things considered, because you can turn it off if you don't like it and it makes it nicer for a lot of people.

00:44:56   Uh, Ming-Chi Kuo's report that has been, uh, referenced a bunch of times talks about illuminated keys.

00:45:04   Mm-hmm.

00:45:05   Um, there was like, uh, I remember me and Federico were joking, I think, connected, but like the idea of being glow in the dark as opposed to, uh, which would be kind of hilarious, uh, and wouldn't work very well, I don't think, but it would be funny anyway.

00:45:18   What we've done is we've created a little spotlight on the iPad.

00:45:22   And when you turn it on, the spotlight shines down on your keyboard so you can see it.

00:45:27   I would personally really like a backlit keyboard.

00:45:31   I just like backlighting.

00:45:32   It's just something that I enjoy.

00:45:34   I mean, you know, would I want it to be RGB colors?

00:45:37   Sure.

00:45:38   Do I think Apple would ever do that?

00:45:39   No, I do not think that they would do that.

00:45:41   Uh, Jason, I have a keyboard that I love very much at the moment.

00:45:45   Uh, I got another one and a mechanical keyboard.

00:45:47   It's called the Digma Raise.

00:45:49   Okay.

00:45:50   And it is like one of those split keyboards and it has this beautiful backlighting and an underglow and stuff.

00:45:55   I'm a big fan of this keyboard right now.

00:45:57   I'm using it on my iPad.

00:45:58   Uh, it's, it's, I think everything I want in a mechanical keyboard.

00:46:02   Don't think this one is for you, but wanted to mention it.

00:46:04   No split keyboards for me.

00:46:05   Thank you very much.

00:46:06   But it also, this one does actually lock together and you can then detach it if you want to, which is a nice.

00:46:12   So you can actually have the both if you want, if it's your thing, but if it's not your thing, then you probably not going to like it.

00:46:17   All right.

00:46:17   Should we, should we take a break and then continue talking about this?

00:46:20   Sure.

00:46:21   All right.

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00:47:35   Would this trackpad on a, on a, uh, smart keyboard pro be for assistive touch?

00:47:44   So is there going to be major updates to the current accessibility feature, which exists, the cursor support that's currently baked in

00:47:51   to iOS 13 that would make it usable for everyone?

00:47:55   So this is, this is the question that comes out of me using that bridge keyboard prototype with the trackpad, which is it's great that in iOS 13, they added assistive touch, um, support for an external cursor.

00:48:08   Uh, it's like a floating finger.

00:48:11   It has some, there's some places you and I've talked about it.

00:48:16   There's some places where it's very useful.

00:48:17   There's some places where it's not useful.

00:48:19   There are certain gestures that are like, you know, you know, tap and swipe that are unnatural with a pointing device.

00:48:26   Um, it is like in the context of a laptop, which the bridge is really very much like a laptop keyboard and trackpad.

00:48:37   I found that it exposed all the failings of assistive touch, which again, assistive touch is an accessibility feature.

00:48:45   It's not meant to be the quality of the MacBook pro experience, but that said using it, you really start to judge it based on what a Mac book or Mac book pro experiences, and it just doesn't live up to it.

00:48:58   There are so many issues.

00:49:00   There are so many holes.

00:49:02   And so when there have been rumors about Apple supporting building a trackpad into its own devices, I thought I think to myself, wait a second.

00:49:09   Like the software Apple is making is not good enough for them to do that.

00:49:14   So unless they've been holding back a bunch of stuff that is going to roll into an OS update at the time that this product comes out that involves way better trackpad support or and mouse support.

00:49:27   Then they're releasing like, I can't conceive of it that they would release a trackpad and say, assistive touch is there, go to town as it is currently.

00:49:38   Cause it's just not very good.

00:49:40   So this is my, my question about like, are there software updates hiding that will be part of this hardware release that will make this trackpad more usable for generally using the, um, the, the whole interface.

00:49:56   And because I don't, I just don't think it's good enough right now.

00:49:59   It really works for me.

00:50:02   I don't have any problems with it.

00:50:04   Like it could, you know, and I understand that I am on a different level to other people here.

00:50:10   Like I care about this, I use it a lot more.

00:50:13   Yeah.

00:50:13   I think you're, I think you're an outlier and also you use it a lot in the context of an external mouse.

00:50:20   Yes.

00:50:20   Right.

00:50:21   Yes.

00:50:21   And this is a laptop trackpad.

00:50:23   Right.

00:50:25   Which is also different.

00:50:26   Like I, I find it more pleasant to use with a Bluetooth mouse.

00:50:31   But when I put, use that bridge trackpad, it was like, no, it like really, I think it's, I think, uh, well, first off a mouse feels different than a trackpad, but I think there's something about having that trackpad and keyboard set up where you feel like you're using a laptop.

00:50:44   Like I said, I think you judge it by how a laptop works and it, and I find it wanting, like every time I need to flick on something with a, it just, it, it doesn't, it doesn't work for me.

00:50:55   And I feel like it's not a main, it's not good enough for most people.

00:50:59   And if they're going to try to sell this trackpad to people, it needs to be good enough for the people who are going to buy it.

00:51:04   And I, I just, my, my gut feeling is that if Apple's with the existing trackpad stuff, if it said, yay, now there's a trackpad on the iPad with the existing iOS 13 stuff.

00:51:16   Um, it, the response from everybody is going to be, what are you talking about?

00:51:21   This is, this is really bad.

00:51:23   Like, I just don't think it's good enough.

00:51:25   I think that what they have right now is the beginning of a full cursor mode for the iPad.

00:51:33   And if you were releasing an iPad Pro keyboard with a, with a trackpad, then you would have to improve it from where it currently is.

00:51:44   It's too early.

00:51:45   And it's, it's, what it is is fine, but the moment it gets the endorsement of an Apple accessory, it goes from being this quirk for people who want it.

00:51:53   It has to be first class at that point.

00:51:55   It does.

00:51:56   And what's there now is not like, it's you, is it G it's usable and I'm glad that you like it and I use it in certain circumstances, but what's there now is it's not good enough.

00:52:06   So if the, if that's their strategy here, they have to have a whole raft of updates to assistive touch that we haven't seen.

00:52:14   Yeah.

00:52:14   Like, my feeling on is right now, I love it because it's better than not having it, but it is not ready for everyone.

00:52:22   Right.

00:52:23   So the second question here, which is another part of this is what if the trackpad only controlled the text cursor, which I've seen a lot of people thinking about.

00:52:32   And you've mentioned like, what if they just added trackpad support for text cursor?

00:52:35   You've been talking about this a long, for a long time.

00:52:37   If they do something where it is this idea of like capacitive keys, right?

00:52:44   They could swipe on the keys then sure, maybe.

00:52:46   But all of this seems like way too much work to release a keyboard with a trackpad and charge more money for it.

00:52:55   If all it does is control the cursor, that would be a massive letdown in my opinion.

00:53:01   All right.

00:53:02   So I'm going to give you the counter argument here, which is get ready.

00:53:06   You ready?

00:53:06   Um, so imagine they released this product and it has a standard trackpad, so it's right there in your face.

00:53:15   This is a trackpad.

00:53:16   What do I do with it?

00:53:17   Well, I can see how they sell it, which is you need a keyboard because of text.

00:53:21   That's why you use a keyboard primarily is because of typing.

00:53:24   You want to do typing.

00:53:25   Well, when you're doing typing, you're also probably doing editing of that text and move, and we have a text cursor that's on the screen when you put two fingers down, but you don't have that when you're using the smart keyboard.

00:53:37   So now we added a trackpad that lets you do all this great editing, uh, and you can select things and you can drag and drop and you can copy and paste.

00:53:46   And you can probably also do some gestures.

00:53:48   Um, which we'll get to.

00:53:50   It's another question that I have, but like I could see Apple saying, we made this thing with a trackpad it's for text editing.

00:53:57   If you need it as a pointer, you can turn on assistive touch.

00:54:03   But by default, it's just for text editing and maybe gestures.

00:54:07   I could see them trying to get away with that and letting that be enough until iOS 14 or iPad, iOS 14.

00:54:15   I could, I could see it.

00:54:16   I'm not saying it's great, but I could see them trying to sneak by and say, well, it's like, it's a trackpad on a keyboard.

00:54:21   Of course it's for text editing and, uh, the text and cursors there and it works and it works pretty well.

00:54:27   So they could, I think they could get away with it.

00:54:31   So this actually is like a, you've touched on something now, which is also leads into what about iPad OS 14, right?

00:54:38   About maybe do actually having a cursor mode for cursor mode as part of one of the big features of 14, which has made me wonder like,

00:54:47   uh, would this definitely come out in March this product?

00:54:52   Well, so the room, I think this is all the rumor is it's going to come out.

00:54:56   It's part of the new iPad.

00:54:59   They're announcing it.

00:54:59   It's going to come out now.

00:55:00   I think what we have to do is think of it in the context of the last iPad pro where it came out and you know, it came out because Apple needed to release it.

00:55:09   Then they just said like, now is the time for this product.

00:55:11   We have to get on, they have a cycle.

00:55:13   This is when this is coming out.

00:55:14   And everybody said this product is going to, is not, it's not good enough because it needs more features.

00:55:22   And that's going to be in the next OS release, which is all the way next summer and fall.

00:55:28   I feel like that's sort of what they're going to do here, which is the iPhone is important enough that the release is timed to the release of the new iPhones.

00:55:35   The iPad is not.

00:55:36   And so you end up with these weird kind of interim steps.

00:55:39   And that's what I'm sort of proposing here as my counter argument to you is this is the, this is an interim step that makes sense for me, which is text editing is good.

00:55:49   You can use text editing, text editing is the default.

00:55:51   Um, assistive touch still kind of weird.

00:55:55   Not the default, but you can turn it on if you want to.

00:55:58   And there, therefore you can get like, get the finger, the floating virtual finger if you want it, but by default they can sell it as it's for text editing and maybe gestures.

00:56:08   We'll get to that.

00:56:09   And isn't that great.

00:56:11   And then they just do that and get it out the door.

00:56:15   And then when they roll out iOS, iPad, iOS 14, it's got a whole new cursor mode in it.

00:56:22   And everybody's like, Oh, of course this is for the track pad.

00:56:25   Yep.

00:56:25   Um, also by the way, that thing we talked about last week, I think about, um, our max.

00:56:30   Like, well, if you sell an iPad that runs on arm that has a keyboard and a pointing device, you could turn it into an arm Mac development machine.

00:56:38   Couldn't you, because now you've got a built in keyboard and mouse, just like you could use that run Mac iOS on arm on it.

00:56:45   Um, but I, you know, anyway, does this make sense?

00:56:49   Like it's, it gets them something that they can sell and have it be like palatable and then worry about having iOS 14 actually implement it.

00:56:59   Right.

00:57:00   Yeah.

00:57:00   If I could like, so if they, if they did, cause like right now track pads don't work with iPad iOS with assistant touch.

00:57:10   So for me, if they release this, said it was primarily for text cursor, but either they said it or they did actually enable

00:57:19   this product to work with the current assistive touch mode, I would be perfectly happy.

00:57:24   Cause then I'm still getting what I want.

00:57:26   Right.

00:57:26   Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:57:28   So for now, we'd be happy with that for now.

00:57:30   And I think that, I think that gets away from the issue of.

00:57:32   Assistive touch.

00:57:33   Isn't good enough.

00:57:34   Cause I don't believe that they've got a secret version of assistive touch and cursor support.

00:57:38   That's been, that's great.

00:57:39   That's going to just get baked in to the, I mean, like, I think it could be in there now if they had it, because people are already using it now and they haven't put it in there.

00:57:47   So I think they just don't have it.

00:57:49   So this would be a way for them to have like something that's very constrained, but decent text editing stuff, I think would be really good.

00:57:55   The assistant touches there on the side, if you want to turn it on and it lets it kick the can down the road until 14 and lets them ship the product now and deal with.

00:58:04   I, iPad iOS 14 later.

00:58:07   And one would hope that iPad iOS, this is, this is an open questions.

00:58:11   One of my questions is like, one would hope that iPad iOS 14, if this product exists would have a much more comprehensive, well thought out cursor mode.

00:58:21   Now that there's a first party product that has a pointing device and that all other third party, you know, pointing devices would also be able to get it, but it would be because there's a track pad on a smart keyboard.

00:58:33   I could get on board with this.

00:58:36   You've answered my main concern, which was like, if they only had this product and all it did was move the text cursor around, it seems like a waste.

00:58:46   But if they did enable it to work with the current system, with the thinking that there would be great improvements to that system, I could understand the timing.

00:58:56   Yeah, I can't see them making a pointing device and saying, Oh, you can't drive assistive touch with it.

00:59:01   Like it's an accessibility feature.

00:59:02   You should, it's actually a, for people who need it for accessibility purposes, it's kind of great, right?

00:59:07   Like you should be able to turn that on, even if that's not what it uses by default.

00:59:11   Um, I don't know.

00:59:13   I don't know.

00:59:13   Well, this is all just kind of tea leaf reading here, but, uh, this is the scenario that makes the most sense to me.

00:59:20   Multi-touch gestures.

00:59:21   We should talk about the gestures.

00:59:22   Cause that's the other part of this.

00:59:23   All my questions are kind of like, they all follow on each other and they're all interconnected.

00:59:27   Cause I will tell you as, as a.

00:59:30   Uh, somebody uses a track pad.

00:59:32   So I use a magic track pad as my pointing device on my Mac.

00:59:37   I use, so I'm using a track pad all the time.

00:59:39   And then I go to that bridge keyboard and the thing I missed the most, honestly were the gestures.

00:59:46   And I think gestures is a perfect example of where a track pad could be great on iPad.

00:59:53   Oh, S so if, if iPad, Oh, S there's an iPad, Oh, S release that enables this track pad.

01:00:01   And there are also gestures baked in, in addition to the text editing, I feel like that's a whole other layer of look at this nice functionality we brought in.

01:00:09   And this is not like complicated stuff.

01:00:11   This is like three finger swipe to switch between apps.

01:00:14   This is, you know, a swipe up to reveal the.

01:00:18   Reveal the app switcher and a swipe down to go to the home screen or something.

01:00:22   It's, it's a basic kind of mission control expose kind of stuff that I think would actually be really nice to have on the iPad.

01:00:30   And I missed it when I was using that bridge keyboard with the track pad, because it doesn't, it doesn't do that.

01:00:36   It doesn't support that.

01:00:37   So I think that, and also, you know, two fingers down to scroll, which you can do on the, with assisted touch, but it's not great, but you can do it.

01:00:46   I use two fingers scrolling all the time.

01:00:48   I would love to have two fingers scrolling on a, on an iPad track pad.

01:00:51   So, um, I think.

01:00:53   If you throw that into the mix, I think you can see Apple's argument being text editing and, uh, great gestures and more to come turn on assistive touch.

01:01:04   If you want, you know, talk to you later and then they're out of there.

01:01:08   So I don't know.

01:01:09   I think, I think it makes it compelling given, because really what we're doing here is we're not imagining.

01:01:14   Our ideal product.

01:01:16   Yeah, we're trying to imagine like if this hardware exists, how do they cobble together from what they have lying around a story that makes sense.

01:01:23   And I think you could potentially throw gestures on, on that list because there are some, there's no, no great gesture support for stuff like that.

01:01:32   And iPadOS today, other than sort of like the scrolling thing, which is like emulating a scrolling wheel, but you could do it and it would make, it would make it a lot better.

01:01:41   And then the last question, which I love.

01:01:45   Will people complain about how the iPad isn't a laptop and doesn't need a trackpad or a keyboard or a stylus?

01:01:49   And the answer is of course they will, because they always do.

01:01:52   They've complained about all of these things since the beginning.

01:01:55   There are some people for whom the idea that you need to add that you not, not need even that you might want to add anything to it, offends them.

01:02:03   And I don't know why these people feel this way, but there was literally a guy wrote back to me on Twitter and said, or he retweeted me and he said, he said, this is just, why don't you just get a laptop?

01:02:14   It was the simple thing.

01:02:15   And I wrote back to him on Twitter and I said, that last question is about you.

01:02:19   And he said, fair enough.

01:02:21   But, uh, yeah, so of course people will complain like Apple making the keyboard doc for the first iPad didn't stop people complaining about iPad keyboards.

01:02:31   Apple making a smart keyboard, a literal Apple keyboard for an iPad did not stop people complaining about people using keyboards on the iPad.

01:02:38   Apple making the Apple pencil did not stop people complaining about styluses on Apple touch devices, right?

01:02:45   Like they're never going to stop because for some people, the iPad is only a touch tablet and should never be used in any other context.

01:02:55   And that's fine, but Apple's gonna, it looks like Apple's gonna release an iPad accessory with a track pad on it.

01:03:02   And so I deal with it, I guess.

01:03:06   And then there are the, the, the other class of people, which is like a similar thing, which was, uh, something that Federico was talking about when he was on the talk show with John Gruber this past week, which was a really great episode about the idea of people.

01:03:17   Like you, you mentioned you, you start using it this way and so why didn't you use a laptop?

01:03:21   You know, yeah,

01:03:24   I have my standard answer.

01:03:26   My standard answer when they say, why don't you just use a Mac book is they don't make a Mac book where I can rip the keyboard off and then walk around with a screen.

01:03:35   I mean, Federico will also talk about how he prefers the apps and all that.

01:03:37   And there's, there's a lot of truth to that.

01:03:39   But for me, the number one thing is 95% of the time I use my iPad, if not more, it has no keyboard attached to it, but I can attach a keyboard to it and then use it in that configuration and then tear it back off.

01:03:51   And like, Macs don't do that.

01:03:54   That's it.

01:03:55   So I found this whole news particularly awkward for bridge.

01:03:59   You know, we mentioned that they were making the pro plus keyboard, which is actually should have started shipping, but it's been delayed until at least April due to production issues caused by coronavirus.

01:04:10   Yeah.

01:04:12   Yeah.

01:04:12   Yeah.

01:04:13   I feel bad for them because they tried to get out in front of this and in talking to them, like there was always this question about what is Apple?

01:04:21   You're a third party.

01:04:21   Like what is Apple going to do here? Because Apple's decisions about software and hardware severely impact the future of their products because if Apple makes their product in a first party version, they're out of luck.

01:04:32   If Apple doesn't push the software along, they're out of luck.

01:04:35   I have optimism about bridge in the long run here.

01:04:40   Um, this product.

01:04:42   Maybe problematic because it was conceived.

01:04:45   If they make big software changes in the new iPad pro.

01:04:47   Um, this might be a problem for them.

01:04:50   If they don't, then it's probably okay.

01:04:52   But like there's potential benefit here.

01:04:54   Apple solutions never work for everyone.

01:04:57   The bridge keyboard has an audience, even though the smart keyboard exists.

01:05:01   Not only is it cheaper, but it gives you the laptop feel and it has that the clamps and the weight to, you know, to use it as a laptop.

01:05:10   And I love it and you love it and a lot of us love it.

01:05:14   So if they, if Apple does this, um, the good news for bridge is that their track pad presumably will have better.

01:05:21   Oh, S support than it did before because Apple is playing in that, in that market.

01:05:27   So any benefit that they would have had for being out there, like it was going to be kind of a weird product anyway, because of the very limited support that Apple offers, you could argue that Apple's presence in the market.

01:05:39   Will hurt them, but that if Apple does some software things to make the trackpad experience actually decent on the iPad, it will benefit them because their product will be better because it will be more usable.

01:05:50   So, um, you know, I don't think Apple's going to make a heavy laptop style.

01:05:55   Keyboard with hinge for the iPad.

01:05:58   If they did that, I will be really surprised if they don't do that, then bridge is going to be fine.

01:06:04   I think because they're going to have the software support they need and Apple's not competing against them directly.

01:06:10   And there are going to be people who want the full on laptop keyboard experience that Apple maybe isn't providing.

01:06:17   I just really, I want this product, whatever it ends up being.

01:06:23   No, because it's, you know, I want the product, but I also want the, I want the software.

01:06:27   Oh, I really want like, if they, if they fix assistive touch to make it better, or if they put in the, you know,

01:06:34   by default, a cursor driving mode, um, then presumably that will work with external devices as well.

01:06:42   I would also really love it if they brought in proper trackpad support so you could attach a magic trackpad to an iPad and it would actually work.

01:06:50   That would be really cool too.

01:06:51   Like I'm also excited about the potential that everybody else who's tried to use an external pointing device will be able to pick up some benefit from Apple rolling this feature in.

01:07:01   So I'm excited on a bunch of levels.

01:07:04   Yeah.

01:07:04   Yeah, this will be, this will be really, really great.

01:07:06   Um, um, and it will also make sense to me why they decided to go down the route of iPad OS.

01:07:15   If they're going to make it like a re that you can use a cursor.

01:07:19   It's like we are so far away from the iPhone at this point, maybe it needs to be its own thing.

01:07:24   Some system wide keyboard shortcuts, which I've been complaining about for so long now, like the, the keyboard up and down for app developers.

01:07:32   Like even though this is going to be a middling step because we know that there's iPad OS 14 coming around, but this little set of updates that are going to be timed around this product release.

01:07:44   It's very clear where Apple goes, goes with iPad OS next, which is they are going to stuff a bunch of things that we think of as Mac features in the iPad now.

01:07:54   And it may be that they feel kind of freed from confusing things with the iPhones.

01:07:59   Like, of course you don't want that stuff on the iPhone, but on the iPad, you really do want it.

01:08:02   And they seem to be going there.

01:08:04   All right, let's finish up today's episode as we always do with some hashtag ask upgrade questions.

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01:10:15   #askupgrade.

01:10:18   First question comes from Justin.

01:10:20   Justin says, we're about to have our first child.

01:10:22   Congratulations, Justin.

01:10:24   Yes.

01:10:24   And we'll be recording videos more often now.

01:10:26   And I'm sure, and also taking more photos than you've ever taken ever is what is what seems to happen.

01:10:32   Uh, Justin has an iPhone 11 Pro.

01:10:34   Can't decide if I should shoot videos in 30 frames per second, 4k or 1080p.

01:10:40   I do not currently have a 4k TV.

01:10:42   Do I future proof videos or maximize space?

01:10:47   So if the argument, you said 30k or 30 FPSK, right?

01:10:53   4k.

01:10:53   So it's, it's 30 frames per second of 4k resolution or 1080p, which I think you can shoot at a higher resolution if you want to.

01:10:59   That I think is worth the argument about like, do I want a higher frame rate for my videos or do I want a higher resolution?

01:11:06   I think I would choose higher resolution anyway, but it's at least worth the conversation.

01:11:10   So here's the thing.

01:11:11   As somebody who's got a daughter in college and a son in high school.

01:11:14   Um, I have seen the curve of quality affect all of my beloved childhood, you know, photos of my kids.

01:11:23   Um, which is why I'm going to say, if you've got the room, shoot at the maximum quality.

01:11:31   Because in 15 years, in 20 years, the space isn't going to matter.

01:11:37   Space is only going to get cheaper over time.

01:11:39   And the quality can never get better.

01:11:43   You know, presumably it's always going to be, even if there's machine learning and stuff like that, like going from the best source material is always going to be the best.

01:11:50   And you're not going to believe this, but in 15 years, 4k video is going to be like crap and 1080 video is going to be garbage.

01:11:59   So choose the highest quality you can.

01:12:02   If you've got the space to do it, if you just can't do it, if you just can't make it work, then, you know, 1080 is, is fine.

01:12:10   It's actually pretty nice.

01:12:11   But I'm just saying, I feel like over time you end up looking back and going, oh, I wish that this wasn't a one megapixel image of my newborn baby.

01:12:19   And you know, that's, that's something that I have to deal with now.

01:12:23   And the baby pictures for Jamie look, they look nice.

01:12:26   They're, they're pretty good with the standalone camera I got, but the, and the videos are awful because they're all SD video.

01:12:31   And that's just, that's the early two thousands.

01:12:34   That's what it was like.

01:12:35   But if I had the opportunity to have shot that all on HD video, even if it would have been more tapes and more hard drives and more expensive, I, I would have done it thinking back now.

01:12:47   So I would say go to 4k and don't worry about the space, right?

01:12:52   Don't worry about the space in your iPhone.

01:12:53   Pay more for iCloud.

01:12:58   Do the maximize storage option and then have them all download to like a Mac or something and then back them up there.

01:13:07   Right.

01:13:08   So these, these videos can live in the cloud mostly as long as you just make up, you have make sure you have a backup of them somewhere, right?

01:13:15   Like on some machine that has a bigger hard drive or something.

01:13:19   Um, don't, I wouldn't say because we have these options now where you can have things just automatically be pushed to.

01:13:27   To iCloud and you should do that.

01:13:29   So then you end up with the 4k video.

01:13:31   And I think for me personally, I like 30 frames per second.

01:13:34   I don't like 60.

01:13:35   Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's weird.

01:13:37   I wonder about the future and if we'll be like, Oh, this is so weird.

01:13:40   Or whether, whether like the fact is that resolution matters and frame rate doesn't matter.

01:13:45   Um, which would be what I would, I would go with personally.

01:13:49   I think I would go with that.

01:13:50   Yeah.

01:13:51   Cause I think I would go resolution cause I think the 30 and 60 thing has been around for longer.

01:13:56   And I think it is more of a personal preference, but you would want to make sure you have as much resolution as possible as screens get bigger and more detailed.

01:14:06   So it makes a lot of sense.

01:14:08   Chris asks, do you think that the design team of the first generation Apple pencil knew full well that the second generation would solve all of the big problems from the first generation, like its ability to roll off a table, charging via lightning port and then having a cat that's easily lost.

01:14:23   Or do you think that they made the generation one and thought that they needed to fix these issues?

01:14:28   Um, perfect is the enemy of good is what I would say.

01:14:34   And great artists ship, you know, real artists ship.

01:14:36   Um, I'm sure everybody at Apple knows at least inside that the first generation one will ultimately be embarrassed by whatever comes after it, but you have to ship.

01:14:45   Yeah.

01:14:46   So there wasn't, you know, I maintain that the charging method for the first Apple pencil was perfectly fine considering the situation in which it was born.

01:14:59   There was no way to charge that thing better than what they did.

01:15:04   Yeah.

01:15:04   I think that's, I think that's true.

01:15:06   Keep in mind the amazing things about the gen one pencil where that it existed.

01:15:10   Yes.

01:15:10   And that it worked with the, with the iPad.

01:15:14   The only way to actually have an Apple pencil be effective is it needs to be charged by the iPad.

01:15:20   Like that has to be the case.

01:15:21   If you have to charge it somewhere else, it sucks and you won't use it.

01:15:24   Like the second generation pencil.

01:15:27   They literally built the iPad around the concept of charging it.

01:15:33   Like, cause it needed the flat edges.

01:15:35   They needed a flat edge.

01:15:36   That's why the flat edge is there.

01:15:37   That that iPad has that thing just for the Apple pencil, the first generation, they kind of had to figure it out, right?

01:15:43   They weren't ready for that yet.

01:15:44   And there were other things like making it exist.

01:15:47   So, you know, were they aware that, uh, it rolled off a table?

01:15:51   Uh, yeah, probably, but they had other concerns.

01:15:55   They had other concerns.

01:15:56   The lightning port, that's what they had available.

01:15:58   They maybe didn't ever know at that point that the generation two would, would be different in that way because you wouldn't create a product and be like, we'll redesign the entire iPad for this.

01:16:08   Cause you don't know if it's going to be successful.

01:16:10   Right.

01:16:10   Right.

01:16:11   But like the jet, the Apple pencil was very successful, which is why it is now available on every single iPad.

01:16:16   Right.

01:16:17   Like Apple knows that the Apple pencil is a big thing.

01:16:20   It, you couldn't buy one for months, right?

01:16:23   Like it's, it's, it's, it's kind of a magical product.

01:16:26   I know Apple, every rules arise when you say that, but like I was thinking about it the other day and the new one is even more, um, like you can't even tell that it's got anything.

01:16:35   The old one, you could take off the cap and find that lightning port underneath the new one.

01:16:39   You know, it's just like a little block.

01:16:40   It's like a thing.

01:16:41   It's like a pencil.

01:16:42   It's just, it's just a thing.

01:16:44   It doesn't feel like a technological product with a battery and software at all, which is amazing.

01:16:50   And the original one felt that way too.

01:16:51   So there's so much there and then yes, it's successful.

01:16:54   And then they say, well, you know, the next iPad needs to be built with the pencil in mind.

01:16:59   And it was.

01:17:00   Ding asks, do you think Apple ever returned to the sub 13 inch Mac laptop?

01:17:06   Or do you think that anything below 13 inches will be iPad only from now on?

01:17:10   If I had to guess, I'd say there'll be a small Mac laptop at some point.

01:17:16   I keep thinking that the, uh, that there may be the arm Mac book, maybe a Mac book and not a Mac book air and that they'll keep the Mac book air around.

01:17:24   Cause they learned their lesson about trying to kill the Mac book air.

01:17:27   The Mac book air will outlive us all.

01:17:28   Jason.

01:17:29   It would be logical for them to just do a new Mac book air, but I feel like that's arm based.

01:17:34   But I feel like, um, that they won't for whatever reason.

01:17:38   My gut feel is that they won't, that they, that they're going to like, all right, you people like the Mac book air.

01:17:43   We brought it back.

01:17:44   It's got a styling that they don't really actually like somebody there doesn't like, but the customers like.

01:17:49   And so they brought it back, uh, kind of, it took time and it was kind of reluctantly, but they did finally get it there.

01:17:54   Um, my gut feeling is that, is that they might make a, a smaller.

01:17:58   Laptop, that's an arm laptop because they can, because they can have it have a smaller battery and it will be thinner and cooler and

01:18:04   lighter.

01:18:04   So I do think, and the Mac can handle an 11 inch screen because I used one for ages and I got one right here.

01:18:12   Right?

01:18:12   Like I think it can, I would love that I would love an 11, 11 inch or 12 inch retina Mac book running on arm with really long

01:18:20   battery life.

01:18:21   Uh, that would be awesome.

01:18:22   That sounds like a great product, right?

01:18:24   I think so.

01:18:25   So I think we will see, if I had to put money down, I think we will see a sub 13 inch Mac laptop at some point.

01:18:31   Elizabeth asks for podcasts that you don't listen to all of the episodes of you just pick and choose based on a topic.

01:18:37   Do you subscribe then delete the episodes you might interested in or do you check the feed periodically and add ones that you're

01:18:44   interested in?

01:18:45   So I guess you never subscribe to them, but you just check and add stuff.

01:18:48   I don't subscribe.

01:18:52   In fact, I always complained to Marco about Overcast that if you add an episode, uh, it used to be the behavior.

01:18:58   I think it isn't anymore that if you added an episode to your library, it subscribed you to the podcast.

01:19:03   And like I would hear about like somebody I know is on a podcast, some, some podcaster I like is guesting on another podcast and I add that

01:19:11   episode so I can listen to it.

01:19:13   Or somebody says, Oh, you should listen to this episode of so-and-so I don't, I don't subscribe at that point.

01:19:17   I don't want to subscribe at that point.

01:19:19   I want to listen to that episode.

01:19:20   And, um, it, so for podcasts where I don't listen and pick and choose, which I, you know, I do the incomparable, it

01:19:28   is the ultimate pick and choose podcast.

01:19:30   Like it's so unless you're me.

01:19:32   And you're interested in everything that I'm interested in, which is, you know, even then I don't host every episode.

01:19:38   Right.

01:19:38   Um, it's a pick and choose kind of podcast in those circumstances.

01:19:42   Yeah.

01:19:42   I, I generally subscribe and, you know, keep three or something and then we'll, uh, hang on to them.

01:19:52   Uh, sometimes, yeah.

01:19:54   Sometimes I will end up finding that I go into the archive and add old episodes back in because I wanted to listen to them.

01:20:00   There are, I should say, there are some podcasts that fall into that camp and there are others where I don't subscribe, but I will visit it periodically and add them in.

01:20:08   That's generally because overcast does not yet offer Syracuse mode.

01:20:14   Which is going from the beginning forward.

01:20:17   And so for a lot of podcasts, I am in the middle of I'm way back in the, in the archive.

01:20:22   And those I manually add and don't subscribe to because I don't want the new episodes.

01:20:26   I'm just manually going through the old episodes.

01:20:29   And when I get to the end of the stack, I'll download a bunch more and add them to the stack.

01:20:33   So we're pretty different, different approaches.

01:20:36   I do.

01:20:36   I do pretty much all of those things too.

01:20:38   And Kevin asks, even the growing coronavirus situation, do you expect other upcoming Apple events like the river March event would be canceled or postponed?

01:20:49   I don't think Apple is going to postpone a media event.

01:20:53   What if they can't make the products?

01:20:54   Well, okay.

01:20:56   If they can't make the maker ship the products, that's true.

01:20:59   Like what if these iPads that they want to ship just can't get out of China or can't get assembled in China?

01:21:04   Well, then that, then the, that event is going to get canceled or postponed or the truth is they will never announce it.

01:21:12   So it will be one of these, like we thought they were going to do it, but internally they postponed it.

01:21:16   They never told us they were having it.

01:21:18   So is it really postponed?

01:21:19   Yeah.

01:21:19   Cause that's the benefit of the way that they do this stuff now is they only send out the invite like a week or maybe a week and a bit before.

01:21:27   And then it's like, you know, you can, you can just, whenever you know, you're like three weeks away from having them,

01:21:38   you don't announce something unless you know, you're ready to ship it.

01:21:41   And if they, if they aren't ready to ship it, then they won't announce it.

01:21:44   And so this, all this stuff we just talked about, it may be that it doesn't happen for a while.

01:21:48   If they can't get the parts and they can't get the stuff out of, out of China where they assemble most of this stuff.

01:21:53   So it's true.

01:21:55   Maybe, maybe that will happen, but I would say that they won't announce an event.

01:21:59   I can't see them announcing a media event and then canceling it.

01:22:03   They just won't announce it.

01:22:05   And media events.

01:22:06   I think it's a good question of like, if Apple would Apple avoid doing a media event where it's a very limited guest list.

01:22:15   Um, for fear of virus transmission versus a general public event.

01:22:20   I think it's possible.

01:22:21   I think the truth is that Apple could do an event without anybody if it wanted to.

01:22:25   It could, it, and it also can just do briefings and press releases if it wants to.

01:22:30   Like I, if I had to put money down, I'm doing a lot of betting.

01:22:33   You are.

01:22:34   If I had to put money down, well, this is the thing.

01:22:37   It's like I can, I can have lots of opinions, but in the end it's like, what's the one that I would be like, all right.

01:22:42   If the most, what's the most likely scenario.

01:22:44   I think the most likely scenario, assuming that they can get products at some point for what we were supposed to have in a March event, I think the most likely scenario is that they will do press releases and briefings and not do an event at all.

01:22:56   Because honestly, an iPhone se, a new iPad pro with an accessory, but it looks more or less like the old iPad pro.

01:23:03   These are updates.

01:23:04   These are not earth shattering products.

01:23:06   Um, Apple got a lot of coverage for that 16 inch MacBook pro and they didn't do an event for that.

01:23:12   They just did briefings.

01:23:13   So that would be my most likely scenario is that Apple's going to convert a bunch of media events into press briefings.

01:23:23   WWDC is a public event.

01:23:26   So I think if my money right now would probably I'm leaning toward that they will do it as a virtual event and they won't have it be in person.

01:23:32   I am in agreement with you on this.

01:23:34   I, I, my, my current feeling is WWDC will not be going ahead in its current guys this year.

01:23:41   And because that's a big rollout, they might do that as an on campus, let's say media event.

01:23:47   So, so the media events become press release and briefing events.

01:23:52   The giant conference becomes a media event with ancillary stuff that's streaming.

01:24:00   And then the iPhone event, who knows what the situation is going to be like in September, but that's an event that I'm sure they want to do as a, as a media event.

01:24:09   And again, they can, they can, they control the guest list too, so they could make it really constrained.

01:24:14   They could not invite people from places where I imagine by September, the coronavirus will be everywhere.

01:24:19   And so it will just be what it is and who knows what our cultural feelings about, about international travel and going to large conferences or big event spaces will be.

01:24:30   Maybe they'll have to do that as a, you know, Apple event in an empty or employee only Steve jobs theater.

01:24:38   Well, there'll be a lot of applause then who knows should be constant applause.

01:24:42   They just won't be able to stop them.

01:24:44   Yeah.

01:24:45   Yeah.

01:24:45   It'll be just long, long applause.

01:24:47   Tim Cook does some, some crowd surfing.

01:24:49   My feeling is just, I just can't imagine any company within the next month making an announcement about their conference that is happening.

01:25:00   I just can't imagine it.

01:25:02   I'm waiting for Google to change their mind on the I/O.

01:25:07   Apple has, Apple has April has till April really to do this.

01:25:11   They've, they've announced in April before, so they've got time to watch this, but the way it's going just because this is a virus and it spreads like that's going to happen.

01:25:20   I have a hard time with them saying, Hey, everybody from around the world fly to Cupertino.

01:25:25   Like I just, I can't, I can't see it.

01:25:28   So I imagine that they're working very hard on what their non event contingency is for WDC.

01:25:35   And I think they can do it.

01:25:36   This is the thing about Apple.

01:25:36   Not only has Apple proven that it can call events and get people to show up and report about what they're doing, they've also proven that they don't have to.

01:25:45   So I think they'll just go to that approach.

01:25:49   Like I think, I think they will, you know, have people go, like I went, I went to New York for the 16 inch Mac book pro with the magic keyboard.

01:25:58   I didn't actually mean to call it the magic keyboard.

01:26:00   I was kind of being sarcastic, but it is the magic keyboard.

01:26:03   They did that right.

01:26:04   And, and people came from all over and they ushered us into their, their flat and they gave us the demo and they showed us stuff.

01:26:12   And we walked away with review hardware and like, it was a very small number of people.

01:26:18   In a controlled space and they got plenty of coverage so they can do that.

01:26:24   They can do that for anything they want to.

01:26:27   So if I had to predict, I think maybe that'll happen this time with the caveat being something that you pointed out, which is very good, which is.

01:26:35   Let's see if they can ship this stuff.

01:26:36   Cause the other part of this is just the, the harm to the supply chain that like, if factories aren't working, then there's no product to sell.

01:26:45   And we have that shoe hasn't dropped yet, but I would, it would, that's when it's going to get really interesting.

01:26:50   If not only events get canceled, but the products start not shipping, like what, what if, and there's no evidence for this yet, but like what if Apple can't.

01:27:01   Ship the iPhone.

01:27:04   Like, and, and all its competitors can't ship their products.

01:27:07   Right.

01:27:08   Like, I think that there is a strong possibility at this point that there will be issues.

01:27:15   Might not be terrible, might not be catastrophic, but issues that lead all the way up to the end of the year.

01:27:23   Yeah.

01:27:23   And.

01:27:24   And even if they have products to sell, they're there.

01:27:27   Will certainly, you would think be constraints, right?

01:27:32   Like even if you can make these products, you may not be able to make as many of them as you would like.

01:27:37   And I think it's going to be, this year is going to be super interesting for technology.

01:27:42   You're without products?

01:27:43   Which companies come out of this okay.

01:27:46   And dealing with, I mean, like financially, it's not, you know, for pretty much all these companies, it's not going to be.

01:27:52   Reckoning, but like what, what happens and how do they deal with their year?

01:27:58   If they can't release the products that they want to release within the timeframes that they want to release them in.

01:28:03   And it's going to be really fascinating to see how this stuff unfolds over the next year.

01:28:08   Yep.

01:28:09   If you would like to send in a question, uh, could be about coronavirus or could not be, I don't know how many more there will be, but you never know.

01:28:16   Uh, just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade and you can send in a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk if you have something a little bit different to help us open an episode of the show.

01:28:25   If you want to find Jason online, you go to sixcolors.com and he is Jason L on social media.

01:28:30   I'm iMyke, I am YKE.

01:28:31   The show is a part of Relay FM.

01:28:33   Go to relay.fm/shows if you listen to Upgrade and no other, or maybe listen to one of the Relay FM show.

01:28:39   I'm very confident there is something in our catalog for you that you may enjoy.

01:28:43   Uh, thanks so much to KiwiCo, Linode and Squarespace for their support of this week's episode.

01:28:50   And, uh, as always, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.

01:28:54   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:28:55   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

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