281: Your Historical Knowledge Has Been Noted


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From relay.fm, this is Upgrade, episode 281. Today's show

00:00:13   is brought to you by Pingdom, Booz Allen, and Direct Mail.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley, I am joined by Jason

00:00:20   Snell. Hi, Jason Snell. Hello, Myke Hurley, welcome back

00:00:24   to uh, home in the UK from the shores of America and from California.

00:00:29   We got a big show for you, we got a big show. I, we're a day late because I was

00:00:33   traveling over the weekend to visit my daughter

00:00:36   in Oregon, where she goes to college. She's doing great, it was great to see

00:00:40   her. And now we're back in our respective

00:00:42   homes and have a huge show. Huge, huge! Big show. We have a #SnellTalk

00:00:47   question to kick it all off, and Nick wants to know, "Jason, what is your most

00:00:51   memorable Apple keynote experience? For me, it was running late for Calculus

00:00:56   because I had to see if the Apple Watch was real and subsequently going

00:00:59   wild when it was revealed. Jason, obviously yours would be slightly

00:01:03   different to most people's, but what is your most memorable keynote experience?"

00:01:07   A little foreshadowing here, we're going to be talking a lot about keynotes in a

00:01:10   little bit, and so I'm going to leave some of the

00:01:14   more personal and interesting Apple-related details for that and pick

00:01:19   some wacky things. So, um, I, I got to stand next to Al Gore,

00:01:26   um, which is at the Yerba Buena Theater, and

00:01:30   I think I've told this story before, there's not a lot to the story just to

00:01:33   say, that I was standing next to him at a

00:01:36   urinal. Okay, good news, thank you. Unusual for a

00:01:40   Vice President of the United States to be that close,

00:01:42   and so, hi Al. And I got to see one of my favorite bands of all time, U2, or at

00:01:48   least large portions of them twice at Apple

00:01:50   events, but that may come up later too. Uh, I think my moment I will also bring

00:01:55   up later on in the show too. That's my most memorable Apple keynote

00:01:58   experience, because it will be a spoiler. Is Al Gore related in any way?

00:02:01   I would, cannot, cannot comment at this time. That is because later in this show

00:02:05   today we are going to be joined by my friend and yours, Stephen Hackett, as we

00:02:09   draft our favorite Apple keynotes of the last decade, so you have that to look

00:02:13   forward to later on in the episode. Yes. But Jason, I want everybody to settle

00:02:18   in now, because we have a headlines bonanza

00:02:22   for Upstream. Upstream extravaganza, so much going on.

00:02:27   All right, so settle in everyone, okay? We've got some, some basic new stuff, and

00:02:31   then if you remember, it was that TV Critics Association thing

00:02:35   last, this past week, so Apple did, as we expect, released a bunch of

00:02:41   information about deals that they're doing,

00:02:43   um, and there's also Peacock. So, uh, Studio Ghibli movies are coming to Netflix, Jason!

00:02:48   Yes! Outside of America. So we talked about this,

00:02:52   Upgradients already know this, that HBO Max made a deal

00:02:56   with Studio Ghibli for, uh, the Miyazaki movies, for all of their stuff.

00:03:00   Uh, it's going to be on HBO Max in the United States, um, and Canada, I think.

00:03:05   Canada's already got a deal. There's also a Japanese streaming deal that's

00:03:07   different. If you're not in the U.S. or Canada or Japan,

00:03:11   all of those movies are going to be on Netflix. So everywhere else

00:03:15   they will get, they made a deal for Netflix, and

00:03:18   it's huge because they have largely not been available for streaming or even for

00:03:22   a la carte purchase. Before you had to get the discs,

00:03:26   essentially, to watch these movies. They are classic animated movies. They

00:03:31   are, some of them are serious, some of them are fun and for kids.

00:03:35   Uh, we've done a half dozen of them as episodes on The Incomparable. They are,

00:03:39   they are some of my very favorites. We've done a couple Myke at the Movies

00:03:42   episodes about them. I'm very excited for people who haven't

00:03:45   seen them or haven't seen them in a long time to be able to.

00:03:48   And so if you're in the U.S., it's HBO Max. I don't know what the service is in

00:03:51   Japan where you're going to be able to get them,

00:03:53   but, uh, everywhere else in the world outside of North America and Japan,

00:03:57   uh, look to Netflix and starting very soon, starting in a couple of weeks.

00:04:02   February 1st, they're releasing the first set. They're releasing the movies in

00:04:06   three waves over a few weeks time. Um, but the, uh, the first, first wave

00:04:12   includes most of the movies that people will want to watch.

00:04:15   Spirited Away, Howl's Moving, Castle, and My Neighbor Totoro.

00:04:18   They're coming first, so that's going to be really great. This,

00:04:22   along with other, you know, piece of information like the fact that Friends

00:04:25   are still available in the UK on Netflix, it's not looking good for HBO Max

00:04:28   International. Um, and not, not, not right now, not yet.

00:04:32   They're gonna, they're gonna start, uh, with North America and go from there, I

00:04:36   guess. Great news, Jason. Disney+ is going to

00:04:38   launch earlier than expected in some European countries.

00:04:42   So instead of March 31st, it's now March 24th,

00:04:45   one week earlier. So you get to see The Mandalorian in two months. Congratulations.

00:04:50   Can't wait. I also want to see the Imagineer series because

00:04:53   I was at Disneyland last week, which was absolutely incredible.

00:04:57   We did, uh, 15 hours in the park. We did as much as humanly possible in one day,

00:05:02   um, escorted by the Sparks family, and the whole time they were telling us

00:05:06   things about the Imagineering series. Um, so I'm really, uh, excited about watching

00:05:11   that as well, but I can't wait to get my hands on Disney+

00:05:14   in a few weeks time. Yeah. I've got some great news.

00:05:17   Okay. Um, one of my very favorite shows of the last few years, which is called

00:05:21   Counterpart, and it aired on Stars, which is a not

00:05:25   particularly well-watched network in the US, and so I would run from

00:05:29   place to place and be like, "Watch Counterpart! Everybody, everybody

00:05:32   watch it! It's so great!" And, uh, nobody watched it because it was on

00:05:36   Stars and you had to get Stars to watch it.

00:05:38   Uh, they did two seasons, 20 total episodes.

00:05:41   It does have, uh, an ending, I would say. I wish it had continued. There are threads

00:05:46   that they could have picked up and continued, but I think when they ordered

00:05:48   it, they ordered 20 episodes and the producers knew

00:05:51   that they needed to land it after 20 because they might not get more episodes.

00:05:54   Um, and it was canceled after the 20. They didn't order more episodes, and they

00:05:58   shopped it elsewhere, and it didn't make it anywhere else. So

00:06:01   there's just the 20 episodes. It is fantastic. It stars JK Simmons,

00:06:04   Oscar winner JK Simmons. It is, uh, it is a genre show. Um, it's actually a few

00:06:10   genres. It's sort of sci-fi, but it's also set in the

00:06:14   present day, and it is a kind of cold war thriller, which is interesting since I

00:06:19   just said it was set in the present day, but you have to watch it to see.

00:06:22   You don't know anything about the premise of the show. Watch Episode One

00:06:26   and see if you're hooked because you will be in for some surprises.

00:06:29   Um, anyway, the great news is, uh, it is, at least in the US, and I don't know about

00:06:34   rest of world details because it's very hard to find this, but it looks like

00:06:37   Amazon Prime is going to put this on everywhere it can over time. Starting on

00:06:42   February 1st, there's that date again. So if you're in North America at least,

00:06:46   uh, and basically anywhere in the world, in February, check out Counterpart and

00:06:49   see if it's available on Amazon Prime in your region because

00:06:52   it is a fantastic show. I love it so much, and I'm actually,

00:06:55   I feel like now that it's going to be widely available,

00:06:58   this is going to be one of those shows that gets discovered and that people

00:07:02   watch it and they're like, "Oh, wow, this is really great," and it's like, "Yeah, it's

00:07:04   too bad that they already canceled it and they're never going to make anymore,"

00:07:07   but you will get a very satisfying 20 episode set. So please,

00:07:11   uh, starting in February, you get your chance to, uh, I'm so

00:07:14   happy for all of you. You get your chance to watch Counterpart. It's so great.

00:07:17   I hope it can't, we can get, I can do, like, the star subscription here and get it, but

00:07:22   I've not done that. I assume that what will happen is

00:07:26   all that stuff is going to eventually just kind of drop off and

00:07:29   Amazon will light it up in all the countries where it can. That's what I'm

00:07:32   hoping will happen here, and then it will just be a catalog title

00:07:36   on Amazon. That would be great because people deserve to see it, but anyway, in

00:07:39   the U.S., February 1st, Counterpart, it's all coming.

00:07:42   It's gonna, it's great. I wanted to do some follow-out to

00:07:46   episode 497 of The Incomparable, where you talk about For All Mankind.

00:07:52   Yes, we did. Apple TV+. That's the first Incomparable thing about Apple TV+,

00:07:56   and it's a good panel, including both me and Stephen Hackett,

00:08:00   because, you know, space, uh, along with Kathy Campbell, Dan Morin, and Moises

00:08:04   Chuyon. So if you'd like to hear us talk for a little more than an hour about the

00:08:07   first season of For All Mankind, check out Incomparable 497. It's a great

00:08:12   episode. I listened to it today. Oh, nice. I edited that in Oregon. I missed

00:08:17   that show already, you know. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I, while I was editing, I

00:08:21   was like, "Oh, I want it to come back," but it just left. It's not going to be back

00:08:23   for months now. All right, you ready for some Apple TV+

00:08:27   news? Uh, yes. Can you tell me if any

00:08:30   wrestlers/Marvel actors are going to be in season two of C? Believe it or not,

00:08:36   Jason, I can this time. Dave Bautista, who you may know from, uh, being Dave Bautista

00:08:41   in the WWE, or as Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy, which is

00:08:47   probably how most people know him now, uh, he's going to be in season two of C.

00:08:51   Feels like a good addition, honestly, because big guy, right? Big guy, great

00:08:55   actor. Um, I'm, I'm not going to watch it, but,

00:08:59   like, good for Dave. Uh, big surprise, Jennifer Aniston won

00:09:03   Best Actress at the SAG Awards for, uh, The Morning Show. Yeah. Came out of

00:09:07   nowhere. So it's another, another Apple event win.

00:09:11   They had already won for Billy Crudup for his super weird, as we mentioned last

00:09:14   time, I think, super weird performance, um, as Slimy

00:09:19   Network Executive, but, uh, Jen, Jennifer Aniston made, she made it.

00:09:23   So, uh, that's cool. This is big for them. This is big for Jennifer Aniston, too, right?

00:09:28   A little credibility. Very, very happy for her, but, like, this is big for them to

00:09:31   win a Best, you know, like, one of the top line,

00:09:35   uh, awards at a prestigious awards show. They wanted this, they got it, so, that's

00:09:40   great. Uh, Apple have signed a multi-year deal

00:09:44   with Lee Eisenberg, who is the co-creator of Little America,

00:09:48   which has debuted to great reviews, um, by the way, like,

00:09:52   lots of outlets are reviewing, uh, Little America very highly. I think that debuted

00:09:56   within the last couple of years. Yeah, I've seen a few, a few critics say that this is Apple's

00:09:59   truly, you know, great show on Apple TV+.

00:10:04   Um, Lee Eisenberg, I think, known most, uh, known

00:10:07   notably for The Office. He was the, um, he was an executive producer on the US

00:10:13   version of The Office, and then he has also produced several other,

00:10:16   uh, TV series, including "Smilf," which is an excellent show, and

00:10:21   then "Little America," so they've got a, they've got him in a multi-year deal now

00:10:24   for, to make some Apple shows. Yep. Um, after quote from Apple, "Reviewing

00:10:31   the information available," they have decided that they

00:10:34   will be putting the banker in theaters and on Apple TV+. Um, so this was the

00:10:39   show that, so the movie, I should say, that had been,

00:10:42   uh, it was pulled, it was an Oscar, it was an Oscar contender. They hoped that it

00:10:47   would get nominated for Oscars, but they pulled its release

00:10:49   in December for Oscar availability because, uh,

00:10:53   somebody said, um, a woman said that a, uh, a guy who's actually a character in the

00:10:57   movie and was listed among the producers, who's the son of the

00:11:00   main character of the movie, had sexually assaulted her, and so there

00:11:04   was a, uh, they pulled it to sort of, like,

00:11:06   investigate what was going on, and Apple's statement says that he is no

00:11:11   longer a producer of the movie and will not profit from the film's release. So, I

00:11:16   mean, this is one of those things we went over it on this show, that

00:11:18   it's not the case where it's like, "Oh, the main character of this movie turns

00:11:22   out to be a horrible person. What are they going to do with the movie?" It was

00:11:24   like an ancillary character who's only really seen as a kid in the movie,

00:11:27   but because he's a relative, he was listed as a producer, and Apple has

00:11:30   basically kind of, like, uncoupled the business of this movie from

00:11:34   that guy in the wake of these allegations. So, you

00:11:38   know, we will get to see it in March in theaters, and then it's that

00:11:41   it's that quick, it's the Netflix window, Myke. It's March 6th in theaters,

00:11:45   or wait until March 20th, and it's all also on your TV, but that makes it

00:11:49   Oscar eligible for next year. For next year. Similarly, probably, Spike

00:11:54   Jonesy has a document documentary, uh, is it Jonesy? Jones? Jones? I think we

00:11:58   just said Jones. Spike Jones, yeah. I don't know why I did that. Jones's

00:12:01   documentary, "Beastie Boys Story," which is about the Beastie Boys,

00:12:05   will be coming to Apple TV+ after a run in IMAX theaters, so Apple's picked this

00:12:10   one up. I don't think that this was something

00:12:12   that they instigated, but it's a movie that they have picked up for the service.

00:12:16   Yeah, they picked up the streaming distribution of it, yeah.

00:12:19   And this movie will debut first at South by Southwest,

00:12:22   along with two other Apple TV+ shows, including "Central Park,"

00:12:26   which is the animated series from the creator of "Bob's Burgers,"

00:12:30   and "Home," which is the documentary series that looks

00:12:33   inside the world's most innovative homes. This is like one of those shows that you

00:12:37   see on Netflix a lot, right, which is like

00:12:39   "Tiny House Nation," like it's like, you know, like a fun,

00:12:42   like, "let's take a look inside some beautiful homes" type thing.

00:12:45   Um, at the TV Critics Press Tour, Apple announced that "Home" was going to be

00:12:49   debuting on April 17th, and "Central Park" will be available this

00:12:54   summer. Nice. Uh, also at the Critics Press Tour,

00:12:58   Apple announced a bunch of stuff over that time period.

00:13:01   Uh, some, some of these headlines are as following.

00:13:04   Meryl Streep will star in an original animated film that will premiere on

00:13:08   Earth Day. Okay. Julia Louis-Dreyfus has signed to a

00:13:13   content deal, which is very exciting. This is, so I believe her deal is, involves

00:13:19   Richard Plepler's production company, and we talked about this before, how the

00:13:23   plep keeps on pleppin'. The, it's the guy who used to run HBO, and

00:13:27   since HBO is now trying to max itself out, and, uh, Apple TV+ is sort of trying to be

00:13:33   HBO, um, this is a, an interesting moment where

00:13:37   they're taking Julia Louis-Dreyfus, who starred in "Veep,"

00:13:40   obviously, and Seinfeld back in the day, but, uh, most recently "Veep" on HBO,

00:13:44   um, and she's got a content deal with Apple and with Richard Plepler's

00:13:47   production company. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot

00:13:50   of these types of things, like, ex-HBOers coming over to Apple. Now that is, like,

00:13:55   an exciting prospect, right? Like, they announced nothing tied to this,

00:13:59   and of course, like, unlike some of the other deals, Julia Louis-Dreyfus

00:14:02   has nothing on Apple TV+. So you're right, this is coming from Plepler, and, like,

00:14:06   that is super exciting, because I love Julia Louis-Dreyfus. I think she's

00:14:10   fantastic, and I cannot wait to see what more

00:14:12   she does with Apple. Uh, April 3rd is going to see the release date of the

00:14:16   drama series "Home Before Dark." This show is inspired by the true story

00:14:21   of reporter Hilde Lysiak, who broke the story of a murder in her town,

00:14:26   aged 11. So this is that story. She's like, "I remember this." We sp- this is one of

00:14:30   those ones, we've spoken about these shows

00:14:32   before, but, so that's coming. Uh, Chris Evans' show,

00:14:36   uh, "Defending Jacob," which is a thriller, is going to be- It's a mini-series, right?

00:14:40   Yes, this is a mini-series that will be premiering on April 24th.

00:14:44   What you need to know about that is that it was shot in the park behind John

00:14:47   Syracuse's house. Everybody needs to know that. Mythic Quest

00:14:51   has been renewed for a second season already.

00:14:54   Um, this is one of those things where, like, they had to get the deadline date

00:14:58   in, and they've done it. Uh, there's going to be a new UK-based

00:15:01   comedy series called "Trying," premiering on May 1st, starring

00:15:06   Rafe Spall, Esther Smith, and Imelda Staunton, a big

00:15:09   fan of Rafe Spall. This is a good example of how we- we

00:15:13   talked about, uh, like, a couple years ago how

00:15:16   Apple hired a couple of key UK television executives, including somebody from the

00:15:20   BBC. Um, but Apple, very early on, started doing

00:15:24   UK-based development. They also have other country-based development. There's

00:15:28   European development. They've got a bunch of people all over the world.

00:15:30   We are going to start seeing, like we do with Netflix now,

00:15:34   we're going to see shows that were made outside of the US

00:15:37   that will roll out worldwide, but will be, you know, made from producers in various

00:15:43   countries, because Apple TV ultimately- Apple TV Plus is- is supposed to be an

00:15:46   international service with content from all over the world. So,

00:15:49   this is, I feel like, technically the first example of that,

00:15:53   where, uh, we're all going to see "Trying" on May 1st, but it's a UK-

00:15:57   developed series. Uh, what else do we have? Ah, "Amazing Stories," it's coming on March

00:16:04   the 6th. There are going to be five episodes of "Amazing Stories" from Stephen

00:16:08   Spielberg on March 6th. Yeah, yeah, and I wonder about that, that-

00:16:12   whether it's, um, because five episodes is a funny number,

00:16:15   and, uh, you and I have talked a lot about what Apple's rollout strategy is.

00:16:18   Obviously, with their dramas, they've been dropping,

00:16:20   sort of, they dropped three, and then they did a weekly release cycle. There's this

00:16:23   real question about, like, with some of the comedies, are they going

00:16:26   to drop them all at once, or are they going to try some other

00:16:31   approach? Because I- I've, you know, the argument is often that, like,

00:16:34   comedies are lighter and are less plot- focused, and so you could just drop them

00:16:37   all and do a binge, or view them at your leisure, whereas

00:16:40   you kind of want the ongoing discussion of the drama.

00:16:43   This one comes up, so this is an anthology series, "Amazing Stories," but

00:16:46   five episodes as a number makes me think that maybe their strategy with this is

00:16:49   to order a large number of these and then drop

00:16:53   them in small batches. So, we'll call it, like, season one, but

00:16:57   it- it may actually just be kind of batch number one, and there'll be another five

00:17:01   episodes in four months, or six months, or something

00:17:04   like that, and that's, uh, you know, I- I think it's something to watch, is just

00:17:07   Apple figuring out what the best way to roll out a TV series is.

00:17:12   And we have some news about Peacock from NBC. Peacock! Peacock news! Peacock news!

00:17:16   So they have some of their content plans. So they have some original content that's

00:17:20   coming, but one of their big selling points is going to be that their late

00:17:23   night programming from Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers, their talk shows,

00:17:27   they usually- they are at 11.35 and 12.35,

00:17:30   respectively. NBC will now broadcast these at 8 p.m

00:17:34   Eastern time on Peacock, so you'll be able to watch them early.

00:17:38   Yeah, so this is an interesting thing. So they record earlier than that. They

00:17:41   recorded, like, 5.30, I think, Eastern time, to give them enough time to

00:17:44   prep them for air, but they're obviously shifting that time now,

00:17:48   um, not the recording time, but the- the, um, the release time.

00:17:52   It shows you how the balance of power has shifted. There was a lot of

00:17:55   conversation when this was announced about how, like,

00:17:57   "Oh, the affiliates aren't going to be happy." Those are the individual TV

00:18:00   broadcast stations in America that broadcast this, but

00:18:03   what you need to know about the affiliate relationship with networks

00:18:06   these days is the networks own and operate the

00:18:10   channels in most of the major markets. If it's a

00:18:12   big enough market, they just bought the channel and they run

00:18:16   it, and, uh, the balance of power has completely shifted now where it's, like,

00:18:20   um, well, we could either have this be an original exclusive to our broadcast

00:18:24   channels or we could use it to sell our streaming service, and the answer is,

00:18:28   well, duh, we're gonna use it to sell our streaming service. So

00:18:32   I think it's interesting if you're a fan of Jimmy Fallon or Seth Meyers,

00:18:35   you know, they can be a primetime show for you. You can watch them every night

00:18:39   at eight if you want, or if you're on the West Coast at

00:18:42   five, uh, watch it while you're making dinner. Uh, will a lot of people do that? I

00:18:46   don't know about a lot, but it's a fun little bonus thing, and I think it's an

00:18:50   interesting-- sometimes it's little stuff like this

00:18:52   that not only shows you the balance of power, like I said,

00:18:55   but, you know, might actually change the way people, uh, watch these shows. The

00:18:59   idea that, um, it's a late night show, but if you always

00:19:02   just record it and watch it the next day, well, guess what? Now you can just watch

00:19:05   it that day. There's no reason for them to record it

00:19:07   and then hold on to it until 12 35 a.m. if you want to see Seth Meyers. You

00:19:12   can watch Seth Meyers today at 8 p.m. or 9 p.m., whatever,

00:19:17   on Peacock. That's, uh, it'll be interesting to see how it goes, but I like

00:19:21   that they're trying stuff like this because it's a very different approach,

00:19:24   uh, from a, you know, theoretically a broadcast television network to do it

00:19:28   this way. It's an advantage that they have, so they've

00:19:30   just taken advantage of it. Yeah. But they announced original shows.

00:19:35   Obviously the one that I am most excited about, The Adventure Zone,

00:19:38   is going to be getting an animated series on Peacock.

00:19:42   This is incredible. I'm so excited about this. I have questions. It'll be

00:19:46   interesting to see what the details are because it's an animated series. It's

00:19:48   apparently going to be the balance arc of Adventure Zone. They're going to

00:19:52   animate it. The way that the show is described, because so much of the show

00:19:57   is the DM, right? It's not just the players, it's the DM.

00:20:01   And there's one way you could do this show where it is you take the story of

00:20:04   the balance arc and you tell it in animation and you have

00:20:07   the the players playing their characters and, uh, and it's like the DM disappears,

00:20:15   right? And that's not what you want. So I wonder what it's going to be like

00:20:19   and if it's going to be kind of meta where it sort of starts out

00:20:23   with them playing D&D and then it goes into the world or it cuts back and forth

00:20:26   there's a lot of different ways you could do it and I'm really curious to

00:20:30   see how they do the storytelling because, you know, the way this is supposed to

00:20:34   work is the DM tells the story, he's doing the voices of all the other

00:20:37   characters, and then they're the two players, and you've got two things

00:20:40   happening simultaneously, right? You've got the

00:20:43   family sitting around the table playing a game and you've got the story

00:20:46   underneath it. And from the descriptions they're not going to lose the family

00:20:50   playing games part of it, so I'm really looking forward to seeing how they

00:20:53   execute it but it's very cool. Or even just like what is it going to be?

00:20:57   Are they going to use the original audio? Yeah, or are they going to re-record it?

00:21:01   I don't know. Like the Ricky Gervais, uh, show was on HBO was literally they just

00:21:08   took, they edited it, but they took the audio from the podcast and animated it.

00:21:12   Because I think it could be difficult otherwise, but are they going to

00:21:18   commit to like 135 hours or whatever? So like there isn't a lot of

00:21:24   information and like the McElroys have said like they can't

00:21:28   give information yet. But I am just happy to see this because

00:21:32   obviously like of course I'm happy to see it, especially The Balance because

00:21:35   it's just like my favorite story ever. But there's more. Clean Slate, a comedy

00:21:40   series starring George Wallace and Laverne Cox will be joining Peacock.

00:21:44   Expecting, which is another comedy from Mindy Kaling and Howard Klein.

00:21:48   Division One, which is a comedy from Ailey Poehler, which I love this,

00:21:52   focuses on a women's soccer team, it's like a real comment of age type thing.

00:21:56   Yeah. Hatching Twitter, a documentary series from Nick

00:21:59   Milton based on Nick Milton's book, Hatching Twitter.

00:22:03   I think this is the beginning of more, like Hatching Twitter will be the first

00:22:06   one and they're going to do other investigative documentary series is the

00:22:09   way it's described. And Magruba, Will Forte will revisit his

00:22:14   role as Magruba, which was the parody of MacGyver,

00:22:18   which then became like a thing of its own. Yeah, it was a Saturday Night Live

00:22:22   sketch that became a movie and they're apparently going to do it as a

00:22:25   show on Peacock, which is funny. I wonder about,

00:22:27   talking about Seth Meyers and Jimmy Fallon, they

00:22:30   already made the move, which for people who don't know,

00:22:34   who don't live on the West Coast, Saturday Night Live used to air

00:22:38   live at 11 30 Eastern and then on the West Coast they would just air it

00:22:42   on tape three hours later. And at some point in the last few years

00:22:46   they realized that there was nothing on TV on Saturday Night

00:22:50   on the West Coast and they started showing Saturday Night Live at 8 30

00:22:53   live in primetime on the West Coast, which is amazing. That's great. As a kid,

00:22:57   I always wished they would do that. So they do that now. So they can't do

00:23:02   what they did with Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers in terms

00:23:06   of making it available, but I do wonder if they'll make it

00:23:08   available everywhere live and if they'll do other

00:23:12   Saturday Night Live tie-ins. They do a dress rehearsal earlier in the evening

00:23:17   that is traditionally only available, I think, inside NBC,

00:23:21   but I had that thought when I was reading about MacGruber and

00:23:24   as well as the Jimmy Fallon stuff thinking, "Well, here's a combo.

00:23:28   Maybe they could stream the dress rehearsal on Peacock

00:23:32   and that would be interesting, right? It would be like, "Oh, you get special access

00:23:36   to the rehearsal of Saturday Night Live or something like that."

00:23:38   I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how they experiment with it.

00:23:42   Speaking of experimental Peacock things, by the way,

00:23:45   so many pricing tiers, Myke. So many different ways that people can pay for or

00:23:49   not pay for Peacock based on what we talked about

00:23:53   before, which is NBC is owned by Comcast, so they want to make this available with

00:23:58   ads in various ways and they want to make it

00:24:01   available to Comcast cable subscribers in various ways. So

00:24:05   they have three different pricing tiers for Peacock.

00:24:09   It's free with limited content, so I guess that means

00:24:13   the originals, like you're not going to get Jimmy Fallon early for free is my

00:24:17   expectation. Yeah, they'll have like a free tier with

00:24:20   with like NBC sitcoms from the broadcast network and stuff that's essentially

00:24:23   what you might have gotten on Hulu that will

00:24:26   eventually just all migrate to the free version of Peacock. And this will

00:24:30   undoubtedly have ads, right? Yeah, for sure. There is also five dollars a month

00:24:35   with ads and access to everything, but this is free to Comcast subscribers.

00:24:40   If you're a Comcast subscriber you can get Peacock for free, but it has ads.

00:24:44   Right, but it has all the premium content. Exactly, it has everything.

00:24:48   Or anybody can pay ten dollars a month and get everything with no ads.

00:24:55   But there is no news on international plans yet.

00:24:59   This will be launching on July 15th in the US.

00:25:03   Yeah, and probably just on the US for a while. I do wonder

00:25:07   as a Comcast subscriber if I can pay five dollars a month to not see ads

00:25:11   or if I'm gonna have to pay full ten dollars a month to not see ads, because I don't want to see the ads.

00:25:15   Couldn't find that answer. No, I don't think they have that answer yet.

00:25:18   But if you're on the five or ten dollar plans, as well as the early access to

00:25:23   late night shows, you also get sports. So like the Premier League.

00:25:28   Yeah, that's right. They have this gold product right now, which is sort of

00:25:32   like the Premier League matches that aren't on their cable channels are

00:25:35   available on streaming as part of that, and they're going to roll that into Peacock.

00:25:39   So that's pretty cool, and I think like CVS All Access, they're going to do the

00:25:43   thing where, you know, the NFL game that's on on your

00:25:46   local NBC channel you'll just be able to stream.

00:25:49   If you're on one of those tiers, they'll let you stream that one game live.

00:25:53   So that is our mammoth upstream headline segment for this week.

00:25:57   Mega upstream. So much going on. Yeah, this is a particularly

00:26:01   busy time. So I saw a couple people talking about this on Twitter over the

00:26:04   last few days. Seems to be so much news right now about

00:26:07   this. This is going to be what January's will be like

00:26:11   always now, because this is the time of the year when a lot of this stuff is

00:26:16   happening. Awards, and then we have the first set of

00:26:19   when companies will be showing off some of their stuff for the year.

00:26:23   January, the TV critics dinner thing. So this is where we are now, right? Like

00:26:29   this is what Apple's in this game. Other companies are moving into a more

00:26:33   technology focused game, right? We're talking about NBC with Peacock.

00:26:37   We have Disney with Disney Plus. This is the time of year when original content

00:26:40   will be announced. So you can mark this one on your calendar.

00:26:44   January won't be boring anymore, Jason. There's always going to be something

00:26:47   happening. Oh yeah, for sure. All right, before we get

00:26:50   into our draft, let's thank our first sponsor of this episode, and that is our

00:26:54   friends over at Pingdom. While you've been listening to this show,

00:26:57   how would you know if your website had gone down? Well,

00:27:00   Pingdom from my friends over at SolarWinds can help you

00:27:03   out, because you want to know if customers couldn't click that "Buy Now"

00:27:07   button or access your content, right? You don't want to stumble across this

00:27:10   problem by luck or somebody contacting you.

00:27:13   You need a system to look after this stuff. You want something to tell you

00:27:16   when everything is running smoothly on your site,

00:27:18   and more importantly when it isn't. This is why you need Pingdom, because

00:27:22   Pingdom detects around 13 million outages across the web every month. That

00:27:26   is more than 400,000 every day. They help keep your sites and the

00:27:30   sites that you love online. It doesn't matter if you're a startup or

00:27:33   a Fortune 500 company, you want alerts about any critical

00:27:36   website issues. They will let you customize how you're

00:27:39   alerted depending on the severity of an outage to make sure that the person who

00:27:42   can fix the problem knows first. Well, don't know second.

00:27:46   Pingdom knows first, and they tell you. Plus, they're going to track and analyze

00:27:49   your website's load time so you can see what's affecting the user experience.

00:27:53   If you have a site of any size, you need Pingdom. They have a no-fuss approach to

00:27:57   get started. You give them the URL that you want to

00:27:59   monitor, they'll take care of the rest. Go to Pingdom.com/RelayFM right now

00:28:04   for a 14-day free trial with no credit card required. Then when

00:28:07   you sign up, use the code "upgrade" at checkout

00:28:10   to get a huge 30% off your first invoice. Our thanks to Pingdom from SolarWinds

00:28:14   for their support of this show and RelayFM.

00:28:16   So, Jason, it is a new decade, right? And so

00:28:20   we've seen lots of roundups and such, and there was an idea that you put forward

00:28:24   to the Upgrading Council, which was ratified and

00:28:27   agreed upon, that we should get in on that game of

00:28:30   doing a top something of... Yeah, the 2010s, let's say. Yeah, I felt

00:28:35   like we have to do something, right? We have to do something to mark the

00:28:39   passing of the decade, and there are a lot of best of the decade lists and all

00:28:42   of that, and I, you know, I had an idea. We don't want to let this pass, and it's

00:28:46   January 2020 now, so we need to do it now if we're going to do it. And it's well

00:28:49   known, Jason, on upgrade, we do not make lists. We draft things. We do make lists.

00:28:54   We make them via draft. See, that's the great thing

00:28:57   about a draft is when you're done with a draft, you have a list,

00:29:00   which is great. So what are we doing? We are going to draft

00:29:04   Apple special events slash keynotes from the decade of the 2010s, and to do

00:29:11   it, we're going to need some help, and that's

00:29:14   why we have brought in special guest star Steven Hackett. Hello.

00:29:18   Wait, I was told I was here to talk about the Macintosh portable.

00:29:22   We're not doing that again. This is a real thing that you're here for.

00:29:26   Yeah. Jason wanted to do the draft and then brought in help, which makes me

00:29:29   think that Jason doesn't trust my historical knowledge.

00:29:32   Yeah, I just thought it's more that I like Steven's historical knowledge

00:29:36   than I dislike yours. Also, Myke, I didn't want to do like a like an eight-round

00:29:41   draft with two people. I thought it would be fun to kind of like mix it up and

00:29:45   have a third person picking just for variety. Don't do an eight-round draft for two people.

00:29:48   Do a four-round draft for three people. That's what we've learned. Yes. Yeah, and then we get a

00:29:53   top 10 list with two alternates, so that's nice. Everyone loves a good old top 12. So Steven,

00:29:59   as guest, would you like to pick? So I guess we should say there's no real rules to this.

00:30:03   I think having spoken about this previously, we have come to the conclusion, not that we have

00:30:10   shared any real information with each other, that the three of us are all picking keynotes

00:30:14   for very specific reasons that are specific to the three of us, which is going to be interesting to

00:30:19   see how that unfolds, but that's where we are. I didn't want it to be one of those where it's like

00:30:25   the best or the most important. Like I sort of feel like it's the most significant or interesting

00:30:34   in some way, but you may have a different definition and that's fine. I have a completely

00:30:37   different reason set for my picks. Oh boy. All right, well, so we'll figure it out,

00:30:42   but it's still a draft, so if somebody else takes those picks before you, then you don't get to pick

00:30:47   them. So Steven, what is your first pick in this draft that we have concocted? I will say I've

00:30:53   watched a lot of YouTube over the last couple of weeks, like refreshing on this stuff, and

00:30:58   I'm going to start at the beginning of the decade with the iPad introduction. Oh, darn it. In

00:31:04   January 2010. Yep, that was my number one. That was very clearly the top pick for everyone,

00:31:09   I think for us. Yeah, very. Yeah, for reasons that anniversary is next week. I'm planning some stuff

00:31:14   for that, but the reason I like this keynote so much is that yes, it's a new whole new category

00:31:22   and that's really fun, but it is so different in the way that Jobs delivered it. You know,

00:31:28   he had that that really fancy black chair on the side table and he really used the iPad

00:31:38   doing his demos the way that people use an iPad, right? It's sitting down, it's sort of an intimate

00:31:44   device, and I think all of that was just so brilliant. It all holds up pretty well,

00:31:50   and I just love the showmanship in that because it's sort of understated, and we all know,

00:31:55   like if this had been decades of all time, the iPhone keynote would have won, right? Because

00:32:01   that's, I think, the best Steve Jobs keynote apples ever did. Sure. But the iPad one is so

00:32:06   different from that, and I don't know, I just I really like the way that it was done,

00:32:11   and it always jumps out at me as something special. Yeah, I think this is the consensus

00:32:15   number one, it sounds like, and since you got to go first, you got to pick it. But yeah, I think

00:32:19   that for all the reasons you said, looking back on that now, and I'm sure we'll get more of that

00:32:23   in the next week as we barrel toward that 10th anniversary, some of the assumptions that we all

00:32:28   made back then are kind of funny now, like oh, Steve Jobs has just saved books and newspapers

00:32:35   and things like that. But at the same time, like taking the iPad and sitting in a chair and kind

00:32:40   of flipping around on the iPad, like yeah, that's the iPad experience. I live that every day, so

00:32:45   they got that part right. Yeah, it was done so well, like I remember like Steve looking,

00:32:52   you know, down over his glasses, that kind of thing, looking at the iPad. But I think the thing

00:32:56   that was so good about that event and the reasons that you've mentioned for doing this was I think

00:33:01   without an extended demo like that, the iPad would not have gotten across, it just wouldn't have

00:33:07   gotten across to people, because it did look just like a big iPhone, right? Yeah. And so I think

00:33:14   they really had to spend some time in that event demonstrating how it would be used, and Steve

00:33:20   standing at a table and doing the demo like they've done for every other one of their products and for

00:33:26   every iPad since, right? Like later on, the iPad, they're not sitting down in a little leather chair,

00:33:32   right? Like it just found its way onto the demo table, and they would do their thing because

00:33:37   people understand how it's used by then. But they really, it was like a master stroke of whoever came

00:33:42   up with the idea of demonstrating it that way. Plus the iPad was just a fascinating product.

00:33:48   Like the iPad introduction was, is also particularly, maybe I'm tipping my hat here, meaningful to me

00:33:56   because it was this which made me decide I wanted to start podcasting because I had so many views

00:34:03   that I wanted to get out that I needed an avenue for them. And so I've been podcasting for 10 years

00:34:12   in April, and that was when the iPad came out. So my first episode of any show that I ever did,

00:34:17   which doesn't live online anymore because I don't want it to, included like my thoughts on the

00:34:24   first ever iPad because it came out in the UK. We actually came out around that time and then we got

00:34:28   it in UK a little bit later. So that was a particularly meaningful event for me. My first

00:34:33   pick carrying on that line is WWDC 2013. This is notable for two main things, iOS 7, which is pretty

00:34:44   big. I mean, when you think about it in the grand scheme of things, right? Like the iOS 7 was a

00:34:49   pretty meaningful, uh, operating system. It changed a lot, right? It was kind of infamous now, I think

00:34:56   is probably the better way of putting it. Uh, WWDC 2013 also included the trashcan Mac Pro,

00:35:02   everybody's favorite Mac. Oh yeah. So very, looking at it from this level, infamous up and down WWDC

00:35:11   2013. But the reason I have picked it is it was my first WWDC that I went to. So this keynote was the

00:35:17   first keynote I'd ever watched. I wasn't my own. Like I watched it in a hotel room with a bunch of

00:35:22   friends, including Steven. Um, and Jason, it may have been the first time me and you met was at

00:35:28   WWDC 2013. Seems likely, I think, um, at the Mac, it was, it was the Mac world party. You invited us,

00:35:35   which is wonderful. And that was super exciting. So that, you know, WWDC 2013 was one of the best

00:35:42   times that I've ever had in my entire life because I got to do something I'd always wanted to do.

00:35:47   And I got to meet a lot of friends that I've made online, start building relationships that again,

00:35:52   got me to, to where I am today. So that's a very important keynote for me in that respect.

00:35:59   Yeah, it makes sense. That was, uh, the, I remember very clearly sitting there when they

00:36:04   played that first video showing the new interface in iOS seven and just kind of not believing what

00:36:11   I was seeing. That was a beautiful video though. It really was. It, it, it, it suggested a

00:36:18   potential future that was spectacular that, uh, you know, didn't really live up to it, but it was a

00:36:24   super important moment for iOS, right. Of, of kind of saying, look, we built the original iOS based

00:36:31   on all these interface assumptions. And we can, we can talk about the pros and cons of the flat

00:36:35   interface and they had to walk a lot of stuff back, but I do think it's important for the

00:36:38   platform to every now and then say, Hey, everything we do is based on assumptions we made, like in

00:36:44   this case before the product actually shipped and we need to refresh it and do something different.

00:36:51   And, you know, there was a lot of fallout from that, but it was a super important moment in

00:36:54   the evolution of iOS. Yeah, that, that was on my list for the reasons that Jason and Myke,

00:37:02   you both shared it such an important event and it gave us an infamous Mac. And it was the first

00:37:09   WBC that I attended. I had been to Mac world the year before, but it was a, it was fun to be there.

00:37:15   And, you know, it's wild to me that that, that that is seven years ago now, six and a half years

00:37:23   ago now, and that that computer just went away. It's just, there's so many weird things about

00:37:27   this keynote and it definitely deserves to be in this list. Good and bad. Yeah. Good and bad.

00:37:33   All right, Jason, what's your number one? All right. I, I have a few that were at the top of

00:37:39   my list, including the iPad, but I think I'm going to go with one that's a couple notches down just

00:37:45   because I think it's important as an event and also kind of important personally. And that is

00:37:51   the September, 2014 event at the Flint center in Cupertino. That was the launch of the Apple watch.

00:37:59   Now keep in mind, this was months before the Apple watch actually shipped to the point where there is

00:38:05   an event in 2015, that's still available for those who want to pick it, where they explained again,

00:38:10   what the Apple watch was because it had been a while since it had been like six months since

00:38:15   they introduced the Apple watch, but they wanted to have the Apple watch debut in front of the

00:38:20   big audience that was waiting for the new iPhone. So the iPhone six and six plus also at this time.

00:38:26   So this is the big, big iPhones, the generation that still exists is still kicking around as the

00:38:32   iPhone eight, but like, so this was the beginning of a brand new generation of iPhone hardware

00:38:36   design. It was the introduction of the Apple watch Apple pay was part of this equation as well.

00:38:42   You may also remember it as the event where, uh, Steve and Bono touched fingers. Oh my God,

00:38:49   was that that one? And you got an album and put in your iTunes library or sorry, sorry,

00:38:54   Tim. Yeah. Steve, Steve also had a Bono moment that people don't remember that was the previous

00:38:59   decade, right? That was the California theater iPod photo event that there were two U2 events.

00:39:03   Don't forget two U2 events at Apple. Why not just keep repeating it this decade? Maybe they'll come

00:39:08   back again and put another album in our libraries anyway. Um, but the other reason that I picked

00:39:14   this is because this was my last hurrah event. This was the last event that I did. Uh, executives

00:39:20   at IDG decided that they were going to lay everybody off on September 9th. And I pointed

00:39:27   out that we would all be at an Apple event then, and it might not be the best time to lay everybody

00:39:30   off. And they said, okay, we'll do it on the 10th. So I went to this event knowing it would be the

00:39:36   last thing that I did at Mac world and that most of the people I was with at the event would also

00:39:43   be losing their jobs the next day. So it was super intense and bittersweet. And, uh, and Apple gave

00:39:50   me an iPhone, which they didn't always do. After the event, I had a briefing to do, uh, to get a

00:39:54   review unit, which was kind of on, on and off, uh, that would sometimes happen and sometimes not.

00:39:59   And I had to tell my, uh, my very nice PR person who I'd been working with several years. I was

00:40:03   like, okay, I got to tell you something about this. I'm not going to be working at IDG as of

00:40:08   tomorrow. Uh, yeah, so it was super intense, but also I think from an Apple, um, perspective with

00:40:14   the Apple watch and the iPhone six line and, uh, the first kind of big iPhone with the six plus and

00:40:20   the introduction of Apple pay. This is a super important event of the decade. It's also an

00:40:25   interesting event because Apple didn't know what the Apple watch was going to be good for yet. And

00:40:30   so you watch Kevin Lynch in this demo, basically building the case of the Apple watch is going to

00:40:35   do everything your phone does and your hotel room door. That was my favorite. I mean, it's wild and

00:40:42   you know, it's amazing to see how far that product has come. That's what really struck me. And while

00:40:47   every watching this keynote, the other thing that struck me, and I remember thinking this at the

00:40:51   time was they blasted it through a really important iPhone and like 22 minutes, like

00:40:57   right. iPhone is done super fast and clearly there was a lot more to do. It's also Tim Cook

00:41:05   gets to do the, the one more thing. His voice breaks when he says it, it's clearly emotional

00:41:09   for them. And, and, you know, it, because of the IDG stuff, you know, we had upgrade and episode

00:41:17   one of upgrade was about this iPhone, which is, is really special too. That is absolutely true. Like

00:41:21   a week and a half later, the episode one of upgrade happened. It's a yeah. Yeah. That I

00:41:26   refer to this as the, what doesn't it do keynote because it was literally like, uh, the, it slices,

00:41:31   it dices, it opens cans, it does whatever you want. It's the Apple watch. And then they had

00:41:35   to figure out like what it actually was for over time. Yeah. Uh, it is wild looking back at this

00:41:41   one because that iPhone, you know, it wasn't just the first big iPhone. It was also the iPhone that

00:41:47   made the sales charts go bananas, right? Like it was that iPhone that broke and smashed and

00:41:54   obliterated all records, which then Apple is still paying for all these years later. Right. Like that

00:42:01   incredible rise that occurred. Um, but I had it on my list because, uh, you know, it was obviously not

00:42:08   a great reason for in some respects, but it also did lead to the beginning of upgrade, which is very

00:42:14   important to me. And it seems like everybody that was laid off from IDG has fell on their feet quite

00:42:18   nicely, I think. Right. It seems like. Yeah, I think so. Hope so. All right. So we're moving in

00:42:24   to round two, Steven, what is your second draft pick? This was going to be lower in my list,

00:42:30   but Myke, I think your game here is, uh, events that's that are important to you personally.

00:42:36   So I'm going to steal one. Why are you going to do that? Like this doesn't make this take a bet

00:42:41   that this doesn't make sense. When are you picking it? Because it's also important to you. Are you

00:42:46   just being mean and picking things that are important to Myke? It is third on my list.

00:42:50   So I'm just bumping it up one. Oh, I see what's happening here. Yeah. But you could still leave

00:42:54   it third on your list though. Right. You don't have to. Yeah. But this is how you draft, but

00:42:58   this is how drafts work. Myke is, is you want to get the pics you want to get. So you have to jump

00:43:03   in front of other people. All right. So I, I am betting that the September, 2015 event is on Myke's

00:43:08   list. It is the introduction of the iPad pro. It's also the introduction of the iPhone success. The

00:43:15   Apple TV was Siri remote. We get the line of the future of TV as apps, a very busy keynote, but

00:43:21   this was on my list too, just to be fair. I also had this on my list. So you, you w well done

00:43:27   stealing our picks Steven, but that iPad pro, I mean, re watching that I saw, I have very

00:43:32   complicated feelings about the iPad pro and I feel like in a way Apple has made a promise. It has yet

00:43:38   to deliver on in some ways, but re watching that keynote, it's really clear that it is a, a big

00:43:44   departure for the iPad, even though it kind of looked the same, it was just bigger, but the

00:43:48   pencil and the keyboard, those are things Apple had never done before. There's also the bonus

00:43:53   points for me that Apple use space theme stuff. So they can picture Jupiter and there's movies

00:43:58   of the clips of the Martian kind of very space oriented demo content. And yeah, a big, big event.

00:44:05   And even though, you know, the Apple TV, the future of TV is app, some of that stuff didn't

00:44:10   pan out. I think that helps make it a classic though, is that this is the future of TV is apps

00:44:14   events. It also, in a way feels like one of the first modern Apple keynotes. Like you could maybe

00:44:23   make that argument about the September, 2014 event, but this event is jam packed. It was in a venue

00:44:29   they hadn't really used much if ever before. Cause this was at Billy Graham center, I think.

00:44:34   Jon Sorrentino Bill Graham.

00:44:34   Jon Sorrentino Bill Graham.

00:44:35   Jon Sorrentino Billy's his son. It's a smaller venue next door.

00:44:37   Jon Sorrentino Billy Graham has a shack out back and it is,

00:44:41   it is just so jam packed. It's, it's a really fast moving keynote in places. And this kind of how

00:44:47   they all are now. This one sort of felt like a shift in the modern direction.

00:44:50   Jon Sorrentino Yep. So I wanted this one because this is

00:44:54   third on my list, by the way. So, um, I can't wait to pick my second one now because it was what I

00:44:59   thought you were going to take, but the, uh, iPad pro is obviously very important to me, right? It's

00:45:04   like, it was a great event for that because that was the device that really changed a lot of the

00:45:08   way that I compute now. Um, but also it was, uh, where hashtag Myke was right. It was born.

00:45:15   That's where the phrase comes from because I was standing alone in my belief that Apple would

00:45:22   introduce the iPad pro at this event. Uh, people were saying it would have, the event would have

00:45:26   been too much, but I was convinced that Apple would introduce it alongside the iPhone because

00:45:30   people will be looking at it because that iPad pro didn't come out like for until like October

00:45:34   or November. Right. Like it was still a bit of time. I thought Myke was right. It was about the,

00:45:39   the plus size phone being the one to buy. Nope. It started here. And then we retroactively

00:45:45   applied it. I think it's all a blur. Who knows, but it was definitely used in a plumb there

00:45:51   because it was where I was right about something, which was nice for me for once. But my, uh, my

00:45:57   second pick is WWDC 2018 because that's where connected was featured on stage during the Apple

00:46:06   watch portion of the keynote. Um, which shows me that really Steven didn't care about emotions.

00:46:12   He just wanted to take a pic that he thought was my second, but that was obviously very important

00:46:17   to me. Uh, because as well as, I mean, I was 13, no, I was 12 Mojave. My favorite of all the,

00:46:22   not really. Uh, I do, I did have a long love affair with Mojave. I would still be on it if

00:46:28   I could, but had to upgrade. Um, yeah, this watch OS five came as well. None of that stuff is really

00:46:35   that important to me now, but I still have a, a fracture on my wall of Tim Cook's standing in front

00:46:41   of an Apple watch with a connected logo on it, uh, which was quite a moment. It really was. I wasn't

00:46:46   in California for the event. We had a death in the family, so I was home and I flew out on Wednesday

00:46:51   for the live connected. And so I was in my office and I kind of broken away from family stuff long

00:46:57   enough to watch the keynote. And it's one of those things where Twitter and like people in the room

00:47:03   are ahead of the live stream. And all of a sudden, like my mentions were just, I mean, like tweetbot

00:47:09   was freaking out on my iMac and, and then it comes up and I have that same fracture and yeah, it was

00:47:16   incredible. I don't know if we've told the story before, but we were actually considering changing

00:47:21   the connected artwork or updating it and we will never do it now. We'll never be tossed. We actually

00:47:27   started conversations about it a few weeks before, like, cause it was one of the original ones and

00:47:31   the relay FM style has kind of moved on quite a lot. Like it's become, our artwork is more

00:47:36   complicated now. Like it's more, more happening and the connected one is quite flat, right? Like

00:47:41   it's, it's iOS 70, I guess. Uh, and, but now we can, now we can and we'll never ever change it

00:47:47   because otherwise the money I spent on that Getty image would have been in vain. Right. Yeah. And

00:47:54   we didn't know that it was going to be in the keynote itself. Um, it was, it was really

00:47:58   exciting. Yeah. That was an absolute surprise. Like one of the great ones, just very good moment.

00:48:04   So you had gotten some approval for Apple to use it in something, but didn't know that it

00:48:08   would actually be on a slide on the keynote. Right. We've done that a lot over the years.

00:48:12   You have to get approval of lots of things, right. And they'll never tell you what it's for,

00:48:16   but like, it could just be as simple as like, we want to use your artwork on the store or

00:48:21   something. And then also like the, our artwork then showed up in support pages for watchOS 5. So

00:48:27   yeah, that's the way it goes. All right, Jason, what's yours? All right. I'm going to go, uh,

00:48:33   with one that is, uh, it's, it's a content pick. Uh, it's a really good event. It's unique in a

00:48:41   bunch of ways. Um, I also saw a whole bunch of people who I don't usually see at these events,

00:48:46   because it was in Brooklyn. It's the October 30, 2018 Brooklyn event. Um, so not only was it in

00:48:56   Brooklyn, so that was unusual. And I got to like, uh, show Federico around a little bit because

00:49:02   Federico was there, uh, which he isn't often at these events, especially not at an event like

00:49:08   this where he was sort of invited to come, but it doesn't have his whole, like everybody he knows

00:49:12   around him. Um, but, uh, like, uh, Casey and Marco were there. There's a surprising number of people

00:49:18   who I don't normally expect to see at Apple special events outside of WWDC who were there.

00:49:23   That was great. But the event itself, um, not only the unusual location, which was,

00:49:27   it was a really great venue and it was kind of fun to be in Brooklyn. Um, retina MacBook air,

00:49:32   which is, I think a super important product because the MacBook air is arguably the modern

00:49:36   MacBook air is arguably the most important Mac of the decade, most successful and beloved Mac of the

00:49:41   decade. And Apple tried to kill it and replace it with a couple of different laptops and it didn't

00:49:45   work. And the, the users basically rejected it and they had to go back and make a retina MacBook air,

00:49:51   which is what this product is. The new Mac mini where everybody's like, Oh,

00:49:54   Mac mini is dead is never going to get updated, but there it was. There was a new Mac mini as well.

00:49:59   And then on top of all of that, that modern generation of iPad pro with the great industrial

00:50:06   design, and they're declaring that it was faster than 90% of the laptops sold in the previous year,

00:50:11   with the new Apple pencil and all of that, like great advance for the iPad pro, which I love as

00:50:17   a platform. So great products, interesting people, interesting venue. Like there's nothing that I can

00:50:24   say badly about this, even though it made me travel across the country in order to get to it,

00:50:28   which I don't have to do for events in Cupertino. Um, still just a great event and the, you know,

00:50:34   late October Apple event, you know, in a weird location, it's pretty good, pretty good, pretty

00:50:37   good. Yeah. I wanted to pick this one because there was so many awesome products at this event.

00:50:43   Like it was a good event. It was like a kind of an apology event in a little bit, right? It was just

00:50:49   like, all right, so here's the two Macs that you wanted. And here's an incredible iPad pro to go

00:50:52   along with it. Uh, that was, that was a good one. And in the same vein, like I was watching from

00:50:57   afar, it was nice to see so many people, uh, that I believe deserve to be at these events,

00:51:01   at those events, like Federico was there, Casey was there, Marco was there. It was a nice thing

00:51:06   to see. All right. So that brings us to the end of round two. We have two more rounds to go in this

00:51:11   wonderful draft, but before we carry on, let me thank our sponsor. One of our sponsors for this

00:51:16   episode that is direct mail. If you're looking to grow your customer base, connect with fans,

00:51:21   or build a following this year, a super cost effective way to reach people is email for over

00:51:26   15 years. Direct mail for Mac has been the go-to email marketing app for businesses, nonprofits,

00:51:31   schools, and other organizations who want to expand their reach and connect with customers.

00:51:36   Direct mail is designed for the Mac. So you can get your work done in half the time using all the

00:51:42   Mac technologies that you have grown to love. There's drag and drop keyboard shortcuts,

00:51:47   integration with other apps or more. And it's like a native Mac app, right? Which is such a

00:51:51   wonderful thing to have direct mail has eye catching templates that are infinitely customizable

00:51:56   and look great on all devices. Direct mail have a helpful customer service support team. They're

00:52:01   staffed by real humans, no chat bots, no artificial intelligence, just friendly folks ready to help

00:52:06   at no extra charge to you. You can send your first campaign today with a free download of direct mail

00:52:12   listeners to this show will also save 10% of all of their feature full featured pricing plans.

00:52:17   Head over to direct mail mac.com/upgrade to experience the top rated email marketing app

00:52:23   for the Mac and see how they can help your business grow. That's direct mail mac.com/upgrade.

00:52:30   Our thanks to direct mail for their support of this show and all of relay FM.

00:52:34   All right, Steven, what is your next pick?

00:52:38   This is, uh, you know, getting into the later rounds, it gets a little bit trickier,

00:52:43   but I am going to go with, uh, October 2010s back to the Mac event.

00:52:50   Oh, wow.

00:52:52   Was on my list. Didn't even make it on my, it's the reduction of the good MacBook air.

00:52:57   You know, they got rid of the weird one with the port flip down the 11 and 13 inch.

00:53:02   It also was the first demo of Mac OS 10 lion. So we see Craig Federicki shaky hand on the mouse.

00:53:09   He's much better now on stage than it used to be. So this event is cool because the map gear is

00:53:14   really important. It was really the laptop that defined the decade as far as notebooks,

00:53:19   not just max, but PCs as well. Ultra books came from this laptop,

00:53:23   but there's an interesting layer to it as well from like Apple strategy perspective where

00:53:29   all of this, this whole event is about bringing stuff from iOS and the iPad back to the max.

00:53:39   We talk about that in software and hardware and look lion is like not a great release of Mac OS.

00:53:45   It did a lot of weird stuff. That's where they changed. I think like the save as dialogue and

00:53:49   it had linen everywhere and like broke full, you know, full screen apps, broke multiple monitors,

00:53:54   lots of weird things. Yeah. I brought the iOS design right to the Mac for some apps.

00:53:58   Right. And what is interesting is that now that we have iOS apps on the Mac,

00:54:04   Apple has sort of moved away from this philosophy of iOS and Mac OS should look alike and act alike

00:54:11   to we're going to use underlying technology to sort of unify the, at the app level and that the

00:54:17   OS is kind of be true to themselves. And so it's a real shift from this strategy that we see 10

00:54:23   years ago to where we are now. And that really hit me for the first time in rewatching. This was,

00:54:29   yeah, I've always thought about this as, Oh, that's when the good Mac gear came out, but it's,

00:54:32   there's also this glimpse into where Apple was going and the next several releases of Mac OS

00:54:37   after this reflect this. And then at some point maybe around, you know, Yosemite or so they shifted

00:54:44   to kind of where we are now. Yep. I mean, I, I had this high on my list too. It was a coin flip

00:54:53   about this or a different event for my pick in this round. So well done. I mentioned it talking

00:54:59   about the Mac book air in the last pick that, that this is the one that started that ball rolling.

00:55:04   And then late in the decade, they're like, all right, no, no, no, you want the Mac book air back.

00:55:08   Okay, here it is. You can have it. Yeah. Because this is a super important computer. And this,

00:55:12   I remember, you know, this event and how excited everybody was about the new Mac book air because

00:55:17   that first Mac book air was, was weird. And this Mac book air was like, I think we even

00:55:23   got that feeling at the time, like, Oh, they got it. They figured it out. This is,

00:55:27   this is the future concept. Mac laptop had become like the great current Mac laptop.

00:55:34   It's the laptop. Everyone says it's their favorite of all time. Right. Not everyone,

00:55:37   but a lot of people for good reason. Yeah. It's great. There's, there's a funny line in this of

00:55:42   jobs is like, you know, what happens if an iPad and a Mac hooked up? Yeah. Like a really

00:55:47   funny way of talking about it, but it, yeah, it defined so much. I mean, this was the Mac book

00:55:53   that brought SSD technology to the masses. Right. And the wedge, I mean, all of it's so iconic. Like

00:56:00   you can't, I think it's really hard to overstate the importance of this laptop and this little like

00:56:05   press event. I think it was on their campus. It's just kind of where it all started. And lion as an

00:56:10   operating system release really is the story of the decade to come for the Mac, which is how does

00:56:16   the Mac fit in at a company that is so dominated by the iPhone and only going to become more

00:56:21   dominated over time. The whole back to the Mac. The idea there is like, we've been talking about

00:56:26   the iPhone a lot, so now we're going to talk about the Mac a little bit, but it also brought in Mac,

00:56:30   you know, iOS features sort of to the Mac. And that became a whole balancing act over the decade.

00:56:36   So that's why this is a good pick. So good job, Steven. Thank you. All right. I am going to go

00:56:41   back to 2010 and I'm going to pick WWDC 2010. Ooh. Now it's worth noting. This is a kind of a fun

00:56:51   thing. Uh, WWDC back in 2010, that's not where they announced iOS updates. So iPhone OS 4 was

00:56:59   actually announced in April at a special event, uh, where it was ready to be roadmap thing. Uh huh.

00:57:06   Um, at WWDC 2010, iPhone OS was renamed iOS because at that point it was iPad as well,

00:57:14   right? That was because the iPad was just shipped. It's just shipped. So they were pushing that like

00:57:20   iPad apps as well. But also at WWDC 2010, they unveiled the iPhone 4. Cause again, there was the

00:57:28   schedule that we have now was wasn't in place then, right? Like where you could predict exactly what

00:57:33   Apple was going to do on a calendar, right? Like iPhones come in September, iOS comes in June. Like

00:57:39   we knew that was, we know that's the case now, but it wasn't really the case then things was kind of

00:57:43   a little bit more in flux, I guess. Um, also FaceTime was unveiled, but the reason that I

00:57:49   wanted to pick this event, two reasons. One, this was the last iPhone that Jobs ever got to show

00:57:54   off, right? Um, which, which was, you know, obviously a very important thing, but also

00:57:59   this was the iPhone that was left in a bar. Yes. This was the first heavily leaked iPhone,

00:58:07   which started, I guess, the industry that now exists around trying to leak iPhones. Uh, this

00:58:13   was the one left in a bar picked up by Gizmodo. There was the secret California technology

00:58:18   police, all that wonderful stuff. And one of what is one of my favorite just tech stories of the

00:58:23   last decade, Steve jobs, uh, sort of threatening phone calls to Brian lamb at Gizmodo. Yep.

00:58:29   So good. Like such a good story. Uh, it was the iPhone that we all thought was really ugly when

00:58:35   we saw the photos, but then when we saw it, it has gone down as being one of the best looking

00:58:39   phones ever. It brought retina. This was the first retina device. Um, just like awesome. So awesome.

00:58:45   Great story. Great WWDC super strange. When you think back to it now that like, this wasn't where

00:58:51   they showed off iOS, they released a phone instead. It's like such a weird thing to think about for

00:58:55   WWDC, but that was what that's. Those were the times kids. Yep. For sure. This is a great event.

00:59:01   And you're right about the, the whole, uh, uh, the cycle being so weird. 2011 Apple started releasing

00:59:09   iPhones in the fall. So the next year, but, uh, in 2010, yeah, there was this whole, whole weird

00:59:16   other schedule and the iPad came in and I didn't have this on my list only because I had so many

00:59:20   2010 events on my list. And I thought that's pretty rough to have just pick from the one year

00:59:25   out of the whole decade, but a lot of stuff, 2010 was a big year for Apple. Big, big year.

00:59:29   Huge. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to do it. I'm going to pick an antenna gate.

00:59:34   Ah, you got it. Yeah. When you said you had a lot of 2010 events, I just like, oh man,

00:59:39   he's going to get my next one. Yeah. I had to pick it now because I was afraid it was going to,

00:59:43   I, I, in fact, I had this lying in wait. I w I wanted it earlier and I was like, no,

00:59:47   they're not going to pick it yet. I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to wait until round

00:59:49   three. So for those who don't remember, uh, after that wonderful iPhone four came out,

00:59:54   there was a whole rash of stories about how if you put your fingers in the right places,

00:59:58   it lost all of its reception or most of its reception, its cellular reception.

01:00:02   You could drop a call or a data session just by putting your fingers in a couple of places on the,

01:00:07   on the edge, that metal edge of the case where they had put the antenna. And there was a whole

01:00:11   thing. This is the, this is the quintessential Apple product flaw story, which honestly we see

01:00:18   every year now, but they're all just trying to be antenna gate and none of them are as good

01:00:24   as antenna gate. Um, it was so bad in fact that so, so, uh, June 7th, 2010 is when they announced

01:00:34   the iPhone four and, and presumably shipped it a few days later, July 16th, a month later,

01:00:40   they had to call a special event. Steve jobs had after the intensity of doing an iPhone launch and

01:00:47   a WWDC, he took his family to Hawaii. They're on vacation. The story keeps building and building

01:00:53   and building and they, they eventually Steve jobs has to come back from his vacation.

01:00:57   They did a hastily called, like, I believe it was literally come to Cupertino

01:01:02   town hall tomorrow. And we'll talk to you about this. Um, it was not a full room because it was

01:01:08   on such short notice. It's not a product launch. It was kind of a presentation followed by a Q and

01:01:13   a session. There are, um, it was Steve jobs at his best slash worst because he doesn't want to

01:01:24   be there. He's really mad that people have brought this up, but also he knows he needs to spin this a

01:01:29   little bit because it is kind of an issue. So he does things like give everybody free bumpers for

01:01:34   their iPhones and it's very case fine. Have a case, see if I care. And so that it is a remarkable

01:01:42   event, uh, in that it is Apple kind of off its game, trying to do damage control and it's Tim,

01:01:50   uh, Phil Schiller and Steve jobs, I think sitting on awkwardly on kind of, uh, stools on the stage.

01:01:57   I've got some photos of this event that are amazing where it's like, we do not want to be here.

01:02:02   And then after the event, they took a small group of us and did the like, no, no, no, we really do

01:02:08   test our iPhones before we release them where they're like, look at this radio lab and look at

01:02:11   this anechoic chamber and all of this other kind of like stuff where they literally nobody gets to

01:02:17   go there because it's where they're researching future iPhones. We went past tables that were

01:02:22   covered with drop cloths because it was obviously next year's iPhones being worked on there.

01:02:27   But they brought us in because they were desperately trying to change the narrative

01:02:31   about how like, Oh, Apple didn't even test this thing. And they're like, no, no, no,

01:02:34   we totally did. Anyway, it was an incredibly unusual event. It's got some great Steve jobs

01:02:39   moments. It was painful. It was awkward. It was weird. It's an event like no other. Um,

01:02:46   and so yes, I pick antenna gate. So it's like, it's fun for me to think about,

01:02:49   like, you know, I just mentioned that, Oh, the iPhone four started the like industry of leaks.

01:02:55   This started the industry of reporting that there are problems of iPhones, right? Like every year,

01:03:00   everyone's trying to find the new gate, right? Like in, in kind of, especially like in mainstream

01:03:06   media, because if you can find that thing and you can report on it, it gets a bunch of news.

01:03:11   You know, sometimes phones don't have headphone jacks. Sometimes phones make hissing sounds,

01:03:17   whatever the reason, uh, you want to get a report on that because it blows up, right? Like people

01:03:21   love that news. And this was the first time that had happened and the Apple had to call a big event

01:03:28   about it. They never do that again. And I think for good reason, right? Like there were different

01:03:33   ways to deal with these types of problems, especially when this actually wasn't a thing

01:03:36   that really affected anyone really like, yeah, you could maybe make it happen, but it wasn't a

01:03:43   problem. Also you're holding it wrong, right? This is the you're holding it wrong moment too.

01:03:48   I, uh, yeah, I skimmed this one. I didn't watch it in full, but man, jobs is like,

01:03:53   he's like, you want a case? Fine. Like it's cringe. It's cringe TV. It's like super cringy,

01:04:00   the whole thing. If you watch it, it's just uncomfortable. It is. And it's just funny that

01:04:06   in hindsight, like, I don't know how big of a problem it actually was. Apple argues in this

01:04:10   event that it wasn't a big deal. And, but then with the forest, they changed the design and

01:04:16   so there's that. And there was a report a few years later that it had been predicted with an

01:04:22   Apple and that engineer was no longer with the company who knows, but definitely an outlier and

01:04:27   one, one worth mentioning, but that's a lot of 2010 stuff, guys. I have some thoughts.

01:04:32   I know why that entire round was 2010. Yeah, that's fun. That's true. That makes four out of the

01:04:39   nine, uh, events that we've picked were from 2010. Big year. I have something to say about that at

01:04:46   the end, but okay. Uh, so I'm up next final pick. Final pick. And I'm going to go with

01:04:55   WWDC 2017. So I don't even remember what versions of iOS or Mac OS were here. That's not even in my

01:05:03   notes, but, um, what jumped out at me in skimming it is that Apple spent a lot of time on hardware

01:05:12   in this event. You know, this was after, I think it was after the round table about the Mac pro

01:05:20   coming back and the iMac pro had been teased, but Apple then spends quite a bit of time

01:05:28   talking about updates to max. This is where we get the teaser for the iMac pro.

01:05:33   We also see the, uh, the home pod in this event, which is like a wild add on at the end.

01:05:43   There's a lot of interesting hardware stuff. And I think the beginning of the turnaround

01:05:48   in terms of Apple doesn't care about max anymore. This is also where we get the new little iPad pro.

01:05:54   Yeah. The, uh, the 10.5. Yeah. Oh, this is where they also revised the big one too. I think this

01:06:00   was the first was, was this one of the first, if not the first revision of the big one.

01:06:04   I think it was with true tone and the other edition. So a lot of hardware love here.

01:06:10   Yeah. So they had already done the first, they had the iPad pro staggered out where in the fall,

01:06:15   they did the big one and then they did the smaller one in the spring. And this is the year where they

01:06:18   like got them all. And they had different features. Remember where like they weren't all, you couldn't

01:06:23   buy a best iPad. And here was the, that was the time where they were like, no, no, no, now we've

01:06:26   got the iPad pro here. It is. Which was good. Cause that was confusing. And the home pod. Yeah. What

01:06:31   a weird launch that home pod too, where it's like, Oh, eventually it'll be out eventually.

01:06:36   Cause they, they felt this was, this was the rare case where it felt like Apple really had to

01:06:41   pre-announce a product because they felt pressure. Cause everybody was saying, where is Apple?

01:06:44   Why don't they have the product in this category? And so they, they kind of pushed it out before.

01:06:48   I think they would have liked to, I think this is a product announcement that they,

01:06:51   we spent the summer saying, why didn't they just announce this in the fall with the iPhone? And

01:06:54   the answer was because there was so much pressure on them to announce it. Right. And like talk about

01:06:59   the wrong environment for them to announce this product, right? There's no developer story for

01:07:03   the home pod and like there barely is still one to this day. This is, this is the one too, where

01:07:08   I got to be brought into the, um, the, the undisclosed, you can say that you heard the

01:07:13   home pod, but you can't say where, um, where they brought me into a room and that you couldn't touch

01:07:18   it, but you could, you could listen to it. Uh, very strange, obviously not a unusual for Apple

01:07:25   because it's, it's rare that they will show the press a completely not ready product, but that

01:07:30   was very clearly a not ready product that they wanted us to hear, but don't touch, try not to

01:07:35   look directly at it. It was very weird. Cause I guess the only thing the home pod really had and

01:07:40   still has is it sounds real good. So you kind of had to meet cause there was no, uh, development

01:07:46   thing. They had to at least try and get people to talk about what it was good at and that was making

01:07:52   noise. So still good at making noise, still bad at everything else. My final pick is I don't like to

01:08:02   go so recent, but there is good reason for this WWDC 2019 because this was my favorite thing about

01:08:11   WWDC is when they give you everything you've been asking for. Right. That, that is like my favorite

01:08:16   thing that WWDC can do is like the community has a list of things and this is the time that we're

01:08:23   going to get them. Uh, 2017 was like this, right? Because we got the hardware that we were talking

01:08:30   about. 2019 I think takes it to another level because not only did we get everything we wanted,

01:08:36   which was Mac pro pro display XDR, right? Like there was a bunch of things that people wanted

01:08:42   in there. A lot of features to iOS 13 that we were looking for. Some of them maybe didn't pan

01:08:47   out the way that we wanted, right? Like the same as like catalyst, like that came, that became

01:08:51   available, but didn't pan out necessarily the way that people were thinking it would initially.

01:08:55   One of the things that we got that nobody was asking for was iPadOS. Like you mentioned,

01:09:00   this recent on an episode, like it's amazing that we have it, but like no one was expecting it. Like

01:09:05   no one was really asking for it, but we got it. So it was one of those WWDCs where like every 10

01:09:11   minutes I was making screaming sounds, right? Where it's just like, Oh my God, they've done

01:09:15   this thing. Right. Like, and so I remember that one was, this was especially fun to watch for

01:09:20   that reason. And then it had all the weirdness to it. Like here's a display. It costs a thousand

01:09:26   dollars to hang it on something, right? It's just like, you know, we talk about, we've been speaking

01:09:31   about throughout this draft memes that will remain a meme for a very long time with our Apple

01:09:36   keynotes, right? That like, Oh, how much does this stand cost? Right? Like that we're going to be

01:09:40   still be doing that joke in like five years time. Uh, so I think that this, this WWDC will go down

01:09:46   in history as well. As far as like the emotional angle, I got my first ever press invite, uh, to

01:09:53   this keynote and through Mac power users, we got to talk to Doug Brooks, the product manager

01:09:58   of the Mac pro. And recently we interviewed somebody who had access to it in advance and

01:10:02   there's one under my desk, like, and Federico got to speak to Craig Federighi and then he did

01:10:07   able to have some people on the show to talk about Swift UI. Like it was like a big year for that

01:10:11   kind of stuff, which was fun. It was. And hopefully, uh, that, that continues in the future with

01:10:15   podcasts or access, but yeah, the first stuff, like the emotional angle, this would be definitely

01:10:21   high on my list because I got to be in the room, which was just an incredible experience to be

01:10:25   there for the first time. And there's, I don't know, like 6,000 people in the room, but it was,

01:10:30   it was a lot of fun. And Jason, it gave me a new respect for what people like you do,

01:10:36   who go to these events all the time, covering it live. It goes by so fast. Like I was,

01:10:41   I kept my notes from that keynote that I was taking during the show. And there's huge gaps

01:10:47   in them because you just can't keep up. And, uh, and so that was a fun, it was fun to be in that

01:10:53   role. Hopefully I get to do it again, but that, uh, WCC 2019 will always be special to me because

01:10:59   I got to be there. Wile E. Hodges and Josh Shaffer. That's who we had on the show. That's right.

01:11:04   I couldn't remember off the top of my head. I apologize. And we did a download rest in peace

01:11:09   with Apple as well. We did all the great shows, all the great shows. All right. I'm going to close

01:11:15   out the draft. Um, and I have two kind of momentous Apple history moments to choose from. I'm going to

01:11:22   choose the September iPhone event from 2017. It's the launch of the iPhone 10, a super important

01:11:32   product to Apple. Um, the, you know, bringing in face ID and OLED screens and the notch and the

01:11:40   edge to edge display. It's a super important product. It is still the iPhone generation

01:11:45   of design that we're in. There was a new Apple watch then too. There was the 4k version of the

01:11:51   Apple TV at last, but the number one reason that I'm picking it is this was the opening of the Steve

01:11:58   Jobs theater on the Apple park campus. And while it didn't smell good outside, cause it was all

01:12:03   covered in fertilizer because they were growing their plants. It was an amazing event because they

01:12:08   opened the theater. Tim Cook did his dedication to Steve Jobs at the beginning of it. Um, and then

01:12:13   they unveiled the iPhone 10, which was a huge product thing. So both for kind of Apple history

01:12:18   reasons and for product reasons, uh, I pick the September 2017 iPhone event. That is a good one.

01:12:25   It also includes the forgotten iPhone, the iPhone eight. I phoned eight. Sure. That also exists.

01:12:32   So I phoned in our lineup. My wife is using one. That's a good pick. I had that one too.

01:12:37   Definitely on my list too. And yeah, the iPhone 10 is such a momentous change in the lineup.

01:12:43   The biggest, I think since we've seen in the six and six plus, so it's, uh, it's definitely

01:12:47   important. And I actually forgotten that this was the first one in the theater. I knew it was about

01:12:51   this time, but I'd forgotten it was the, uh, the iPhone 10 event. All right. So that is the end of

01:12:56   the draft. We've picked all of our picks, but of course it wouldn't be a draft of our honorable

01:13:00   mentions. So Steven, is there anything that you want to just cast a quick note to that didn't get

01:13:06   picked in our 12 overall items? Yeah, I've got, I've got a couple. Um, I think the iPad two intro

01:13:13   in March, 2011 is another really strong keynote. They, I mean, the, the original iPad was such a

01:13:21   hit immediately and the iPad two just continued to bury their competitors in the ground. And plus

01:13:27   it had the really cool video with the smart covers. If you remember those, and, uh, it was

01:13:32   also a shift. The original iPad keynote involved a demonstration of I work, and this one involved

01:13:39   a demonstration of I life, photos and movies and stuff. It was kind of a shift in Apple's

01:13:44   content strategy for the iPad to think was really interesting. And, uh, I'll stay in 2011 with my

01:13:50   other one, the WWDC of that year, it was, I was five. So it was PC free. Remember you could sync

01:13:58   over wireless if you wanted to, but it was the introduction of iCloud, which is actually, uh,

01:14:04   Steve's last keynote. We have the, the line that you've said on this show, the truth is in the

01:14:09   cloud. It's a huge quote from this. And, uh, there's also a joke about mobile me, which is fun

01:14:14   that jobs knew that it wasn't their finest hour. So I think kind of, uh, in hindsight, a really

01:14:20   important. WBC because like, we're still living in this world where iCloud is the glue that holds all

01:14:24   these things together. The only, uh, event that I had left that wasn't picked, uh, is the March

01:14:32   services event from 2019. Oh, wow. It's unusual. Isn't it? Yes. Uh, it is.

01:14:40   I think it is historic because it marks the changing of the company. Um, this, this event

01:14:47   had no product, but Apple thought that it was worth bringing in the world's media. Um, we got

01:14:54   Apple news, plus Apple card, Apple arcade and Apple TV plus TV plus took up the majority of

01:15:00   the event when Apple one by one brought out all of this, a selection of stars that they were working

01:15:07   with, including Oprah, uh, to which the roof flew off the Steve jobs theater at that moment. Um,

01:15:14   and it was a big event because, I mean, it was big for, for us, cause we've been talking about

01:15:19   this stuff for so long at this point. Um, and so, you know, I feel like, you know, we have upstream,

01:15:24   we cover this stuff and this was a big moment for that. I felt like it's something that I knew a lot

01:15:30   about and was like really intrigued to see if everything was going to go the way that I thought

01:15:33   it would. But I think that again, we will look back at this event, uh, in another 10 years time

01:15:39   and quite like we spoke about 2010, 2019 marked a lot of change for Apple. And this is one of the

01:15:47   big changes of like, okay, we're a media company now. So let's see what ends up shaking out from

01:15:53   that one. Um, my only leftover pick was something that I referred to as the empty chair event. It's

01:15:59   October 4th, 2011. This was the introduction of the iPhone 4s and Siri. Uh, five of my friends

01:16:04   was also at this event, but I think in hindsight, most notable because, um, they left us a chair at

01:16:11   the front of the stage, um, like in the first row, um, open for Steve Jobs who died the next day,

01:16:20   I think. Um, and so it's, I always think about that, that they did an Apple product launch event

01:16:26   the day before Steve Jobs died and they, you know, and they left in his, in his honor, the story goes

01:16:32   that they left his, uh, his audience chair, uh, available, but they knew what was, what was

01:16:38   probably going to happen. And, uh, and so, yeah, that, that, that was the other one I had on my list.

01:16:43   - Any, uh, closing statements on our draft here, incomparable style?

01:16:48   - I think it's interesting that it's pretty weighted towards earlier in the decade. And

01:16:56   I think there are a couple of reasons for that. I mean, one, like we're all Steve Jobs fans and so

01:17:01   his, his presence on stage makes these things feel more special. But I, I think there,

01:17:08   there have been a couple shifts. Like if you kind of jump across the decade and,

01:17:12   and look at these events, I think three things jumped out to me. One, Tim Cook is much better

01:17:18   on stage than he used to be way better. Um, two, Apple is working on diversity. It's, it's

01:17:25   improving as the years go by and in terms of who is on stage and what they talk about. And I think

01:17:30   that's obviously a very important thing for Apple to continue to push on. Uh, but three,

01:17:36   I don't want to go into this conversation necessarily unless y'all want to, but

01:17:39   the, if you go back in the past, there's, there's always been applause at WWDC because there's

01:17:46   developers there, but like press events, it basically was a quiet room for the most part.

01:17:51   And that is totally different. Now Apple brings in retail employees and other people to, uh, to

01:17:57   these events. And, you know, like the Brooklyn events, a good example where they're like people

01:18:01   from the New York area, Apple stores there, and they were very clearly enthusiastic about being

01:18:04   there and they should be, that's really exciting, but that's a real difference between like the back

01:18:09   to the Mac event and the 2018 MacBook air event. Like just listen to them. It's a very different

01:18:16   environment. And I just, I found that really notable while going back through these.

01:18:20   The change in Tim Cook is a big thing, right. And getting better at it. But then, you know,

01:18:26   you mentioned the diversity. It makes it interesting because we hear them from different

01:18:30   people and that just means the events feel different. Like they have a different energy to

01:18:34   them. Um, which is good, right? Cause you've got as well as people that have been doing this stuff

01:18:40   for a long time and know how to work a crowd, you have people that you can feel their excitement

01:18:45   because they get to be on stage for the first time talking about the thing that they work on.

01:18:49   Um, it, it makes the events feel very different. It also makes them feel faster, I think,

01:18:54   because we're, they're cycling through people. Um, so it gives them a different energy,

01:18:58   which I enjoy. Steven, thank you so much for joining us for this draft. Your historical

01:19:03   knowledge has been noted, um, and appreciated. Uh, if you want to find Steven's history,

01:19:09   well, the history that Steven reports on, go to fivetortpixels.net and of course you can go to

01:19:14   Fivetortpixels YouTube channel as well. Uh, Steven is the host of many fine programs here at Relay

01:19:19   FM, including connected, liftoff, Mac power users, and ungenius. Uh, Steven is at ISMH online as

01:19:27   well. Did I cover everything Steven? It feels good. Thanks for having me guys. Always a pleasure.

01:19:32   Never a chore. Thank you Steven Hackett. Until next time. Adios. All right, Jason, we should do

01:19:39   some hashtag #askupgrade to send this episode off into space. Uh, but before we do, uh, I would like

01:19:45   to thank our final sponsor of this episode, which is Booz Allen. Modernizing for the future is a

01:19:50   challenge, especially for larger organizations. You may need to integrate legacy systems of new

01:19:54   technology. You may need to incorporate AI and analytics to work more efficiently and make fast

01:19:59   decisions. And everyone needs new ways of thinking to move to what's next, whether for government

01:20:04   or commercial goals. Booz Allen understands, and they're helping some of the world's largest

01:20:08   organizations modernize. They understand the missions of government and industry and the need

01:20:13   to adapt to constant change. They provide open source solutions so clients can integrate

01:20:18   innovation from anywhere, whether from visionary startups or major contractors. Plus they're

01:20:23   helping clients power new technologies of analytics and because security is everybody's priority,

01:20:29   they integrate their capabilities of intelligence grade cyber security. With Booz Allen integration

01:20:34   means putting you in control of innovation. Integrate, innovate, get it done with Booz

01:20:39   Allen. Learn more at BoozAllen.com/relay. That's BoozAllen.com/relay. Our thanks to Booz Allen for

01:20:45   the support of this show. Let's do some #AskUpgrade questions. Three, two, one. Oh no, the episode's

01:20:55   already been, okay, I guess we haven't left. You said we had to send this episode into space.

01:21:00   So I guess, lift off? Right, we're now, we're just, we're kind of, we're heading up, we're

01:21:06   nearing max Q right now. I don't know what that means, but it's the beginning of our ascent into

01:21:11   orbit. And Kirk asks, Jason, what Blu-ray drive are you using with your Mac? Oh, so I have a new

01:21:19   one. It's a long story. I wrote a post about it, or updated an old post about it. I am using the

01:21:26   new drive I got is it's an Asus drive. It's the Asus, it's a great name. You're going to love it.

01:21:30   BW-16D1HT. Oh good, I'm pleased they upgraded from the HH to the HT. That was a good one. In an OWC

01:21:39   Mercury Pro enclosure, basically I was talking to people who rip Blu-rays and put them on Plex

01:21:46   about how there's now this Libre Drive standard, which is basically a, you flash the firmware on

01:21:56   the disc and it gets in this completely region-free DRM-free mode where I can take not only regular

01:22:03   Blu-rays, but I can actually take 4K Blu-rays and pull them off using the very useful MakeMKV app,

01:22:10   at which point I put them on my Plex server. So I'm a firm believer that, this is my disclaimer,

01:22:16   firm believer that if I buy a disc and I want to play it on other devices in my home, I can do that.

01:22:24   And I don't use it for piracy. I use it for my own home playback on my server and for backing up the

01:22:29   movie so that I can get it off the disc and into other formats. So I did buy a new one of those

01:22:35   because it's nice and fast and more flexible and my old drive was getting a little long on the

01:22:41   tooth. And I actually bought it flash, pre-flashed with Libre Drive. There's a link in my story to

01:22:47   people who offer it, including the guy that I used, who basically, he buys the drive and flashes the

01:22:54   firmware so that I don't have to boot into Windows and flash the firmware myself and then sends it

01:23:00   and basically charges you for labor and passes on the cost of the drives. So that's what I did.

01:23:05   And so now I've got a big optical drive for when I want it.

01:23:08   - This is so weird. I'm like looking at this external enclosure thing.

01:23:13   - Yeah.

01:23:14   - It just all looks so strange.

01:23:16   - It's a big metal slab with a big drive in it.

01:23:20   - So this isn't in the post you have a picture and that's not the drive you have now, right?

01:23:26   - No, that's my old drive.

01:23:28   - The old drive. Yeah. Which is much nicer than the new drive, which is very big.

01:23:32   - Yeah, it is.

01:23:34   - Chris wants to know, do either of you use clips? I've used it occasionally, but as of iMovie,

01:23:40   I find the investment versus reward lacking compared to the photo's moments feature.

01:23:44   Do you ever use clips, Jason?

01:23:45   - No.

01:23:46   - I wish it supported portrait video. I feel like if it did, I could make some fun Instagram

01:23:52   stories of it. Cause it does like that subtitling thing and you can do green screen type stuff and

01:23:57   it has all those stickers, right? Like I feel like clips has a lot of really interesting features,

01:24:01   but locking it to square video, it's just very strange. Like this is not, I know why you did

01:24:07   it Apple because Instagram, but you should be focusing on Instagram stories, not Instagram

01:24:13   feed posts, right? Like it is a social media app. Do you remember people originally thought

01:24:17   that clips was going to be a social network that Apple was making, but it ended up just being this

01:24:22   social video app, but it should be shooting 16 by nine, not square. So, or nine by 16 or whatever

01:24:30   one it is. Nine by 16 is what I'm saying, because that was the portrait, like Instagram stories.

01:24:34   Come on, update the app. That's what we want. They update the app all the time,

01:24:37   but never in the ways that I want it to be updated. So no, I don't.

01:24:41   Ninjo asks, I'm going to be going overseas for a week in March. How does one go about getting

01:24:47   a travel data plan? I often remember Jason, when you would talk about the vending machines inside

01:24:52   of airports. That's one of the ways that you used to get a SIM card and you can just get a SIM card

01:24:58   from a local store when you land. That's what I used to do back in the day when I'd arrive

01:25:03   in the US, if I hadn't already lost, if I had remembered to bring my SIM card from my previous

01:25:08   trip, I would use that. Otherwise I'd go to like a T-Mobile store because T-Mobile have like a

01:25:12   travel SIM basically, it's like a plan, which is for 90 days or whatever. And it's just,

01:25:18   it's basically a prepaid plan. You could do that. Um, but what I do now, my carrier,

01:25:23   I'm with a carrier called EE here in the UK. I'm on a plan that counts my data, minutes and calls

01:25:29   overseas as if I was at home. So there's no charges, right? It's just included in my plan.

01:25:35   Check if your carrier does that. If they do, it's great because then you're not paying a bunch of

01:25:39   fees, a bunch of carriers. I know that American carriers do a thing where you can just pay a fee,

01:25:45   a flat fee every day and use your phone that way. And sometimes that's actually a pretty good deal,

01:25:50   especially if you're having to deal with switching SIMs and switching numbers and all of that,

01:25:54   that I went to Canada for a few days and it was way easier for me to just have my AT&T plan

01:26:00   charge me for the three days I was in Canada than it was to deal with something else. They

01:26:05   would be different if you were in a different country for two or three weeks, maybe.

01:26:08   Matt>> But you really should check something like this these days because

01:26:12   apps are data hungry now and you can blow through daily caps very fast if you use like

01:26:19   Instagram, like it will just gobble that right up and it's all gone. So like if you get, if you just

01:26:24   get into your regular flow of things, not really paying attention to your data, you will go through

01:26:30   daily caps very quickly. Tim>> At this point, I don't recommend it. Like if you've got an option

01:26:34   where it's like, we will charge you per gigabyte over this or whatever, find another option because

01:26:39   you don't want to live like that. You're going to be traveling, whether it's for work or for a

01:26:43   holiday. The last thing you want to do is every time you look at your phone, you're flipping

01:26:48   switches on and off of cellular data or you're thinking about how much they're going to charge

01:26:52   you. You either want an all-in plan for your carrier or you want to get an eSIM or a regular

01:26:58   SIM card from some carrier, assuming you've got an unlocked phone especially, which most of them

01:27:05   can be or are now. So yeah, that's the eSIM thing is really nice, right? Because if you have the

01:27:12   ability to have a second SIM active on in your phone as well as your existing SIM, then you can

01:27:19   do a little bit of both and that makes this, this is getting better, I guess is what I'm saying.

01:27:24   - Yeah, I've included a link in the show notes to a knowledge base article from Apple talking about

01:27:29   how to use eSIMs and this is like especially useful in iPhones. Was it the 11? No, 10s from

01:27:39   10s and 10r and later, you can use a second SIM, electronic SIM in your iPhone. So if your iPhone

01:27:47   is unlocked, which is important, that's also important if you want to buy a SIM when you land,

01:27:51   make sure your iPhone is unlocked before you do that because otherwise you're stuck. So that

01:27:58   might not always be an option for you but eSIMs are another way to do it. But I agree with Jason,

01:28:02   do everything you can to avoid paying for gigabytes. You don't want to do that now because

01:28:08   you will end up in a situation afterwards. I can almost guarantee it. It'll be more expensive than

01:28:12   any other way that you would want to do this. Ben writes in and says, "After last week's episode,

01:28:18   I got to wondering what are your etiquette rules around taking smart devices with you if you were

01:28:23   to move to a new house? Can you take the smart bulbs in the ceiling mounts, the smart roller

01:28:28   shades that you installed? What about the ring doorbell? What stays? What goes?" - All right,

01:28:33   so there are a lot of issues here. One of them is are you renting or are you selling your house

01:28:37   and what was in the house when you moved in? But I think the simplest answer is if you are a renter,

01:28:47   return the house...consider what it would take to return to the house to the original condition it

01:28:51   was in. So you put smart bulbs in the fixtures. If you want to take your smart bulbs with you,

01:28:56   that's fine. If the house didn't come with smart bulbs, just buy some bulbs and screw those in

01:29:01   and take your smart bulbs with you. If it's something like a roller shades, right, like if

01:29:07   they weren't smart roller shades when you got there and you installed them, I think they belong

01:29:12   to you and you should be able to take them. But you can't leave the house without shades. If the

01:29:16   house had shades when you moved in, you need to put shades in before you leave, either the ones

01:29:21   that you kept, right, or if you threw them away, the ones that you are going to have to buy to

01:29:27   replace them. And then you do the balance. You do the question of like, "Would it be easier for me

01:29:31   just to leave them here where they are already installed and go buy new ones in my new place?"

01:29:36   But I think returning it to the place that you left it, like if you have a Nest thermostat on

01:29:42   your wall and it originally came with a cheap plastic thermostat and you still have that

01:29:45   somewhere, just put the cheap plastic thermostat back. If you are selling your house, I don't know,

01:29:50   talk to your realtor because there may be some like implication of like whether they are buying

01:29:55   the equipment or not, but I think even then I have a hard time believing that any house sale is

01:30:00   contingent on things like whether you have got smart bulbs in the outlets. So my real guidance

01:30:06   here is leave it the way you found it unless you decide that that's actually more complicated than

01:30:12   it's worth. Yeah, this is definitely the case for renting in my opinion, right? Because it's like,

01:30:18   it's more trickier. House sales are a bit weirder because like, you know, you're buying the shell,

01:30:23   not the stuff that's in the middle. Right, unless that's negotiated because sometimes that happens

01:30:28   where it's like you've got this huge table that fits in this room and they're like, "We love that

01:30:31   table. We want to buy it," along with the house. And you're like, "Okay, throw in another $1,000

01:30:35   and you can have the table." Yeah. But yeah, like don't leave people without a thermostat,

01:30:41   which is another point. If you're renting and you're putting any of this stuff in,

01:30:45   keep the old stuff. Keep the old stuff. So it can be put back in. Consider that when you move out.

01:30:50   Upgrade warning. It's literally an upgrade warning as well as a warning from upgrade.

01:30:56   Josh writes in and asks, "Do you think it's possible and/or probable that streaming services

01:31:00   will ever pick up canceled shows from other streaming services? I just really want Sad Spies

01:31:05   Back." We all do, Josh. We all do. We all do. This has already happened. It will continue

01:31:10   happening. I think the most likely scenario is that the studio that made the show has its own

01:31:15   streaming service because what you want to see is alignment between who made it and who profits from

01:31:24   it and what the outlet is where it's being released. And if you see alignment, then there's

01:31:31   a more likely chance. NBC did this to itself where NBC, the broadcast network, canceled AP Bio and

01:31:36   then Peacock picked it up. Peacock, as mentioned earlier on this episode. So you could see that.

01:31:42   Then again, Peacock, among the shows that it picked up were shows from other studios. So you

01:31:49   could end up in a situation where Peacock cancels something and the studio who made it is like, "Oh,

01:31:54   maybe we should put this on our own streaming service if we have one." So I think it will

01:31:59   happen. It has happened. It will happen again. But as time goes on and there's less desperation

01:32:08   to get streaming services up and running, I think you'll see it less because you really need

01:32:14   a unique position where somebody feels like they're in a stronger position with the show than

01:32:19   the originator. And when it's streaming to streaming, I think that's less likely to happen.

01:32:24   Less likely to happen to something like The Expanse where the sci-fi channels deal with

01:32:28   The Expanse's production company was very specific in the U.S. and they didn't have some of the

01:32:33   streaming rights they wanted and it was a bad deal for the sci-fi channel, but Amazon could make a

01:32:38   good deal and had been using it in the rest of the world and felt good about it. When there's a lack

01:32:43   of parity like that, you can see it happen more when everybody's just, "I got my own streaming

01:32:48   service worldwide," and everybody's got the same. It's less likely that somebody's going to see a

01:32:53   canceled show and say, "Oh, you know, that would make sense. It doesn't make sense for you, but it

01:32:56   makes sense for us." So you want to look for where there are moments where there's a real disparity,

01:33:01   which is happening now, but I think over time will happen less.

01:33:04   And also as there will be fewer production companies used, right? So if Netflix have

01:33:11   a Netflix original that they have created and canceled, it is less likely for that to show up.

01:33:17   Yeah, well, it basically can't.

01:33:19   Exactly.

01:33:19   Because they own it and they killed it. And that's also the case with a lot of stuff is

01:33:24   if it's from Amazon and Amazon funded it and Amazon owns it forever,

01:33:28   then it's not going to go somewhere else. And that may be the case with Patriot.

01:33:32   And streaming services want that. They want to own it all if they can. And they will try to

01:33:41   hold onto it forever.

01:33:42   And finally, Michael asks, "iCloud Drive is super buggy for me. I copy PDFs. It keeps showing upload

01:33:49   signs. Nothing happens for days. Have you guys switched to iCloud Drive or would consider it?"

01:33:54   I have not considered it because I use Dropbox and there are things I use in Dropbox that

01:34:03   are very much how I want to live my life. And while I could probably move some of my

01:34:10   things to iCloud Drive, other things I'd have to stay in Dropbox, at which point I think I

01:34:15   would rather keep Dropbox. It has lots of nice kind of fiddly features that you can do on the

01:34:19   web where it's keeping files over time and it's doing versioning. And I'm paying for

01:34:23   a higher level of Dropbox. So I get that kind of functionality, which I find really valuable.

01:34:29   I am. I'm going to use this as a moment to say I am really frustrated with how bad the

01:34:33   Dropbox experience is on iOS. Files has issues, but Dropbox has real issues. It feels to me like

01:34:39   Dropbox has just decided that strategically it either doesn't care about its iOS experience or

01:34:45   it doesn't want to be seen as just a file provider, which is what my guess is. Because it is so much

01:34:53   more painful to use Dropbox on iOS than it should be. There are plenty of iOS 13 APIs to improve the

01:35:02   files app experience for external providers like Dropbox. And yet Dropbox has always been behind

01:35:08   and wonky. And even to this day, when I use files to import something from Dropbox, I end up seeing

01:35:13   like an old version of my Dropbox that is not what it currently is because for some reason the

01:35:20   Dropbox app isn't updating the data. It's so frustrating. But that said, I have not considered

01:35:27   switching to iCloud Drive for most of my stuff because, you know, I have it built in Dropbox and

01:35:32   Dropbox offers me other features. I would consider switching small things to iCloud Drive in the

01:35:37   meantime, but I'm not going to move house completely. But like, you know, you mentioned,

01:35:42   I agree with you, like Dropbox and iOS, especially in the files that could do with work. It's

01:35:46   embarrassing. But iCloud Drive is bad too though, right? Which is like Michael's question and it's

01:35:51   situations that I have. You say things to iCloud Drive and like I try and open a 46 kilobyte numbers

01:35:58   file and it will sit and spin for 10 minutes before it opens. It's like, why? What are you

01:36:03   doing? This should be on the device. Like what is happening? Right? So I have this problem all the

01:36:08   time with iCloud Drive stuff, right? Like the containers that the apps have inside of iCloud

01:36:14   Drive. I use iCloud Drive like my on device storage. Like I save files there that I'm going

01:36:21   to be sending somewhere else. Like it's like, oh, I've got a PDF that I want to email somebody.

01:36:26   I just save it to iCloud Drive and then email it. I don't use it for storage long-term storage.

01:36:31   But you could just use on my iPad for that. You don't actually even need to use iCloud

01:36:34   Drive for that. I mean, I don't have to. It's just like a, it just goes there because it's just,

01:36:38   it's there, right? Like I just put it there because this is where I put things. Cause I've

01:36:41   been doing that since before on my iPad existed. So it's just part of my workflow, you know, like,

01:36:47   and you've got the buttons to save to iCloud Drive and a bunch of applications rather than like,

01:36:51   I'd have to go, I'd have to physically like choose then to open on my iPad. It's like,

01:36:56   yeah, whatever. I'll just put it in iCloud Drive. Thing for Dropbox to me, like I don't really have

01:37:01   any problems with Dropbox. I know a lot of people hate Dropbox, like, but I have no problems. It's,

01:37:06   I think it's a great service. Like, like for example, I couldn't switch to iCloud Drive

01:37:11   because I now have more in my Dropbox in physical, like in, sorry, in like in, in storage

01:37:18   than most of my devices could fit on them. So now, you know, so like, but, but Dropbox has a

01:37:25   solution for this. They're smart sync stuff, right? Where I, I have two different ways of

01:37:29   doing it. I can give a selective sync things, which I do on my iMac Pro, or I can use a smart

01:37:34   sync on devices that I don't need to have everything immediately available. And you just

01:37:38   download the files that you need. Like I think that's a great feature that Dropbox has available.

01:37:42   I call drives doesn't have that feature. Like I couldn't switch even if I wanted to,

01:37:47   because it's too much stuff. And honestly, I wouldn't trust iCloud Drive with a terabyte

01:37:52   of data. I just wouldn't because it can't even serve me 45 kilobytes. So I will, I will say you

01:37:59   can actually do that on iCloud Drive. You can, it will download things on demand and you can click

01:38:04   and choose remove download, and it will remove that file from your, from your drive and leave

01:38:08   it in the cloud. So you can do that. But in going to check that right now, I noticed that I, my

01:38:15   iCloud Drive still has the little like clock that says it's uploading one item that's 15K.

01:38:21   Awesome. That has been there forever. And I don't know what that item is. And it's

01:38:24   the way that you described it. It seemed like it's just going to download stuff. And then I have to

01:38:28   tell it if I want it to go away, but with Dropbox, nothing's downloaded unless I choose it to be.

01:38:34   That's a setting, that's a setting. And I think that, that you can actually set it. So it works

01:38:38   that way. So, but I agree, I am more comfortable using the Dropbox approach there. And I, you know,

01:38:44   iCloud is not without, if this was a case where iCloud worked perfectly and Dropbox was what it is

01:38:49   today, I would still have to use Dropbox for some things, but I would be more tempted to move a

01:38:54   bunch of other things to iCloud Drive, but you're just trading one set of bugs for another set and

01:38:59   more features for me on Dropbox. All right. So that's it for this week's episode of upgrade.

01:39:03   If you want to find our show notes for today, you go to relay.fm/upgrade/281. If you want to have

01:39:08   a question answered on a future episode of the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag

01:39:13   #askupgrade and it may be included. Uh, thanks again to Steven for joining us. If you want to

01:39:18   find Jason online, go to sixcolors.com. He is @jsnell. You can find Jason on many shows here

01:39:24   at relay FM and the incomparable as well. I am @imyke. Thanks to Booz Allen, Direct Mail and

01:39:32   Pingdom for their support of this week's episode. Until next time, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:39:37   Goodbye everybody.