270: The Toughest Compare


00:00:00   [Intro music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 270. Today's show is brought to you by Freshbooks, Direct Mail, and Eero.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi, Myke Hurley. How are you?

00:00:21   Big, big show today! Big show today! Lots of stuff. Funny how that is.

00:00:27   The culmination of many years of discussion. Well, not culmination, because it's not ended.

00:00:32   But anyway, we'll find out later on, as we go very upstream-heavy as we talk about Apple TV+.

00:00:37   But before we get to all that, we have lots of things to cover, including our Snell Talk question, which comes from Jared.

00:00:42   Jared wants to know, "Jason, what way of hearing about Apple products, like new Apple releases, do you prefer?

00:00:48   Do you like to go to events, or do you like with, you know, you go see the iPhone at an event and find out there?

00:00:53   Or would you prefer to go to private briefings in advance of press releases? What would you personally prefer?"

00:00:59   Oh, interesting. That's a good question. I would say getting briefed privately under embargo in advance,

00:01:11   so that you know something the world doesn't know, is awesome. Right? Like, that's the best. That's the best.

00:01:18   Because then you're breaking the news. When your embargo drops and you release your story, nobody's heard of this product before.

00:01:26   I remember when we did this a long time ago, I think Mount Lion was the surprise OS release.

00:01:31   They were literally no rumors. No rumors.

00:01:34   A Mac OS release is not like the biggest product in the world, but like, they had managed to keep it so there's essentially no discussion of there being a Mac OS update.

00:01:43   Everybody really assumed it would be another six months before there'd be a Mac OS update. And we got called to these briefings,

00:01:50   and I've told this story before, but like, I remember leaving and running into MG Siegler, who was writing a TechCrunch at that point,

00:01:59   in the parking lot, and we both looked at each other and just shook our heads like, "What?"

00:02:03   Because we had gotten briefed on a product release that was going to be happening.

00:02:07   And imagine like a new version of Mac OS that nobody knew about that was going to release. It's really awesome.

00:02:14   Because then we post our stories and people are like, "They don't believe you?"

00:02:17   They're like, "Did you make this up?"

00:02:19   I'm like, "No, this is real. Breaking news is the best."

00:02:22   So it's nice to go to an event and see it there, and then if you are fortunate enough to be invited to get your hands on them before other people and all that, that's great.

00:02:32   That's all good, but there really is nothing that beats being on an embargo.

00:02:38   And you felt this because we did it for the iMacs, right? Again, not the biggest product in the world.

00:02:43   I felt the absolute terror of that, yes. I found it horrifying.

00:02:47   Sure, but it's also, okay, so that is the question about, like, you had to rename, we had to name the file something different.

00:02:54   You don't want to mess up and give away the secrets because, you know, Apple is taking you into confidence,

00:03:00   and if you blow it, you're never going to get anything from Apple ever again.

00:03:04   So there's some pressure there, but also it's kind of awesome.

00:03:08   Like, I remember getting the readout of what all the features of the new iMacs were while I was in a cab,

00:03:14   like going to New York City to do the interview, and, you know, it's just kind of cool.

00:03:17   It's like, here's this thing that the world doesn't know yet that you know.

00:03:20   That's pretty awesome.

00:03:22   Thanks so much to that awesome question from Jared.

00:03:25   You can send in a question to help us open an episode of the show by just tweeting with the hashtag SnellTalk.

00:03:29   Some follow-up, Photoshop on the iPad is out today.

00:03:34   Yes.

00:03:35   And Adobe is doing a big press thing. Their Adobe Max conference is going on right now.

00:03:40   It is available, as has been noted on this show and endlessly by lots of people I follow on Twitter

00:03:48   and seeing lots of articles written about this.

00:03:51   Adobe Photoshop on iPad still has a way to go.

00:03:54   I mean, it's not 100% of Photoshop at all, but it is like the intent is that this is Photoshop and it's going to open your PSD files

00:04:01   and it's going to grow over time as they get more and more features into it.

00:04:07   But this is the idea, is that this is not some strange Photoshop spinoff product like we've had on iOS before.

00:04:16   It's going to be real, but it starts here and it continues.

00:04:19   I've also seen a lot of people who act really surprised when Adobe rules it out and says that you need to subscribe to get it

00:04:26   because I don't know where you've been, but Adobe's been on a subscription model for a very long time now.

00:04:30   And the target audience for this is people who pay for Photoshop.

00:04:35   And if you pay for Photoshop, then you can use Photoshop on iPad and Mac and Windows and wherever else you want

00:04:42   and use their cloud syncing if you want to do that.

00:04:44   So I think there are no real surprises here.

00:04:48   It's good that it's finally out. I wish it did more because of course, don't we all wish it did everything?

00:04:53   But they are committed to it and it's so good to have Adobe committed to a real Photoshop on iPad

00:05:00   instead of these weird little side project Photoshops that we've had up to now.

00:05:05   I will say my first attempt to use it, I tried to open a whole bunch of PSD files that I have on my server

00:05:11   that I used to design like podcast art and stuff like that.

00:05:14   And the first five I tried, it said I can't open, this file is incompatible, which is weird because it's a PSD

00:05:21   and it opens fine in Photoshop on my Mac.

00:05:24   And I don't know what's going on with that.

00:05:27   Other PSDs that I went to later, I was able to open without any trouble.

00:05:31   So I'm wondering whether that's a bug or if there is a file compatibility issue that they're not properly describing

00:05:39   because they're like, "I don't know how to open this file."

00:05:41   It's like it's a PSD with maximize compatibility checked.

00:05:44   So I don't know why that didn't work.

00:05:46   So, you know, it's a 1.0.

00:05:48   It's literally a 1.0 version, but it's exciting that it's here.

00:05:51   I'm glad.

00:05:52   And it says something about the iPad that they're embracing it and they're embracing the Apple Pencil.

00:05:57   And it's a good way to start.

00:05:59   And then doubling down on this, they announced today that in 2020, we will be getting Illustrator on the iPad as well.

00:06:06   So Adobe is being aggressive. They're moving. You know, they have work to do, as you said,

00:06:12   but they are moving towards the iPad becoming a very serious platform for them

00:06:17   as they are bringing their key tools to the product.

00:06:21   It's about time.

00:06:23   Speaking of which, do you want to talk about Dungeons & Dragons, Jason Snow?

00:06:26   Yeah, of course. Some important Dungeons & Dragons follow-up.

00:06:30   Well, we have to mention this.

00:06:32   So starting earlier this year, we streamed some D&D games that we were playing on your Twitch channel for playing for fun,

00:06:42   because you and Tiff, or playing Tiff Arment, were playing Dungeons & Dragons in a group that included a whole bunch of other people,

00:06:51   DM'd by Tony Sindelar, who's done a bunch of the games on Total Party Kill on the Incomparable Network,

00:06:56   our weekly Dungeons & Dragons actual play D&D podcast.

00:07:00   And the follow-up is that today we dropped episode one of that.

00:07:07   It's episode 212 of Total Party Kill, but it's the first episode of this new adventure with these new characters.

00:07:13   And if you would like to hear me and Myke and Tiff and James Thompson and Myke's wife, Adina,

00:07:23   and Lisbeth Miles, who if you listen to especially like Doctor Who podcasts, you know who Liz is,

00:07:29   we are all playing Dungeons & Dragons together.

00:07:33   Other than me, I think everybody is basically a first time or first time in decades D&D player, so that's kind of fun.

00:07:39   They're sort of new players with new characters in a new adventure.

00:07:43   And we had a lot of fun. So it's mostly UK people with a few token Americans, and the first episode dropped today,

00:07:50   and then they will be weekly from here on out for the next, I don't know, few months at least.

00:07:54   Yeah, it's been wonderful to play, and I really hope that people will enjoy it.

00:08:00   Many of us stumble our way through Dungeons & Dragons for the first time.

00:08:04   Yeah, it's a good jumping on point. So it's episode 212 of Total Party Kill,

00:08:09   but if you just start with that one and then listen weekly, you will get this story.

00:08:14   You can go back and listen to the other stories later, that's great, but this one starts here, no previous knowledge required.

00:08:21   And it's worth just checking out for James Thompson's episodic LEGO dioramas that he's constructing.

00:08:27   Oh yeah, we should mention, so what we did, James got really excited about this, and in a couple of ways that are interesting.

00:08:33   One is he loves LEGO, and so he built LEGO versions of all of our characters, which was fun.

00:08:39   And the show art is of like a lineup of all the characters in LEGO form.

00:08:44   But what we decided to do kind of after the fact is James thought, "What if I built a scene from every episode in a LEGO diorama and took a picture of it?"

00:08:56   And so every episode has an accompanying kind of LEGO image of something that happened in that episode, which is hilarious.

00:09:04   Also, those who are wondering, if you listen especially, how it is that James has written an entire app where you roll dice,

00:09:14   and yet had not played D&D before doing this since he was a kid.

00:09:20   The answer is that we started recording this so long ago that he bought a bunch of dice because he was excited about playing D&D,

00:09:28   and we talked about dice, and we talked about there should be a dice rolling app, and then he wrote the app.

00:09:33   So now that app is out for every Apple platform, but this season of TPK is actually where James got the inspiration to do that.

00:09:42   Yep, and you can also hear as that unfolds in past time.

00:09:49   So worth checking out. It's a lot of fun. I hope that you enjoy it if you do check it out.

00:09:54   Apple earnings time, Jason Sall.

00:09:57   Oh boy, money, money, money, money.

00:09:59   Now everybody who listens to this show loves, I love to talk about this.

00:10:03   I saw somebody say this recently on Twitter, and I completely agree. They said they were a business nerd, and I think I am one of those types of people.

00:10:10   Alright, you worked at a bank. I'm not surprised.

00:10:13   It's just I'm interested in the way that businesses operate, which is one of the reasons that I enjoy Upstream,

00:10:21   because it's like this is a new business venture for a lot of these entertainment companies. They're changing their business, right?

00:10:25   And I find it fascinating. But we're going to devote far less time than usual to this today, because we have so much to talk about.

00:10:31   But I will give the headlines. So this is for Apple's Q4 results, right? But it's not counted the Q4, it's financial Q4.

00:10:41   Fourth fiscal quarter, right.

00:10:42   So ending the end of September, so just after the iPhones came out.

00:10:47   So they were at $64 billion in revenue, which is up from $62.9 billion year over year.

00:10:53   Biggest revenue quarter in the fourth quarter ever, which is only by a little, but it's once again,

00:10:59   there is so often the quarterly revenue number is a record, and it was again.

00:11:03   But check this one out. $13.7 billion in profit down from $14.1 billion profit a year ago. What does that mean, Jason?

00:11:11   It means they are spending more money on stuff, and this came up in the analyst call.

00:11:16   They're buying TV shows, they're investing in R&D and a bunch of stuff, and basically the CFO, Luca Maestri, sort of shrugged and said,

00:11:26   "Yep, that's what we do. We are investing in R&D because we got to stay on the cutting edge,

00:11:32   and then we're investing in the services stuff because we think it's really important."

00:11:35   And so yes, that's the long and short of it.

00:11:39   Who needs $13 billion in profit? What company needs that? What are you doing with it?

00:11:44   Spend it on stuff. It's good. I think that's good. I think that's good business. Spend it on stuff.

00:11:49   The iPhone is down 9% year over year. Bad but not so bad.

00:11:54   So I'll read a quote. This came from the Six Colors Twitter account.

00:11:58   iPhone revenue was $33 billion in profit. 9% decline is a significant improvement over 15% decline in the first three quarters of the year.

00:12:06   Significant upswing is mirrored in positive reviews and response to the new iPhones.

00:12:11   So it seems like Apple is turning the tide a little bit, but it's still not perfect.

00:12:15   You got to love it when down is up, right? When down is up.

00:12:18   But this is, we talked about this in a different context about the iPad a couple of years ago,

00:12:23   where we were trying, the iPad kept going down, and we were trying to find a silver lining,

00:12:27   like any sign that the iPad was going to hit bottom.

00:12:30   And then there were like two or three quarters in a row where the iPad's decline declined,

00:12:34   and we're like, "Yeah, it went down by less."

00:12:38   And, you know, as ridiculous as that is, it was a positive sign, and it did actually turn around.

00:12:44   It has slowed its descent, and now it's not climbing, but you got to slow your descent before you can start to climb, right?

00:12:51   Well, that's where the iPhone is. It was down, but it was down substantially less than it was down the first three quarters of this fiscal year.

00:12:57   And that is generally a sign, and I think they said that September looked really good,

00:13:02   and September would have been the only month where the new phones were on sale at all.

00:13:06   So they're basically saying, "Yeah, we think that this is turning the tide and that the phone is going to a better place," even though it was still down.

00:13:13   I'm super intrigued to see what Q4 looks like for the iPhone.

00:13:17   Yeah, I mean, we'll -- right? It's holiday quarter, and it's three full quarters of their new iPhones for us to analyze.

00:13:30   They're positive about it, but, you know, there's a lot of range. Their guidance for next quarter is about $5 billion wide,

00:13:39   and it goes from being sort of like up a little to being their biggest quarter of all time, and, you know, those are the two edges of the guidance there.

00:13:47   So, you know, they're being careful with it.

00:13:51   A hedging.

00:13:52   But they definitely think that it's possible that they will have an all-time record quarter next quarter.

00:13:58   Yeah.

00:13:59   And if they do that, that has got to be on the back of stronger iPhone sales.

00:14:03   So I would expect that this is the strategy of the 11 that it has worked, right? That the iPhone 11 strategy is paying off.

00:14:12   That seems to be the implication. Again, the numbers here don't really relate the whole story because it's only the first couple of weeks of iPhone availability happening here.

00:14:21   But they know, it's one of these things, the results are about September, but they know what October looked like too.

00:14:30   And so when they talk about like they're positive and they see positive signs and all of that, you know, I feel like they wouldn't do that if they knew that it actually wasn't true over the long run.

00:14:41   So I think that there's some information here behind the scenes that they're using to say, yeah, this is, we're encouraged by what's going on in the early days with the iPhone.

00:14:50   There's not a lot of iPhone sales in here, so we're kind of extrapolating.

00:14:55   And you know, this is what Apple wants us to think is that the iPhone 11 seems to be doing a lot better than the 10s, which is not, I think not surprising.

00:15:03   I think it makes sense. But I mean this for me though, you know, this number, it further underscores the point of why Apple put the phone out even though iOS wasn't ready.

00:15:13   Like just a couple of weeks of having that can really like just having the iPhones in the quarter, like this quarter is a big help for them.

00:15:20   And if they wouldn't, it would have been significantly worse as a decline than any other quarter this year, which is not what they would have wanted.

00:15:26   So that's my read on it anyway.

00:15:29   Apple announced another strategy that will boost multiple revenue streams for them.

00:15:34   Zero percent financing for iPhone with Apple Card. So you can, if you buy an iPhone with an Apple Card, you will get 24 months, 0% with 3% cashback.

00:15:44   So you still get your cashback and you get to pay it off over 24 months with no interest.

00:15:50   So it's kind of like the iPhone upgrade program, but you get Apple Care instead of cashback.

00:15:54   But this is just like another, you know, like we talk about the many, many, many ways Apple's trying to convince you to buy an iPhone.

00:16:00   This is another one.

00:16:01   And one of the analysts actually asked Tim Cook in the call after the results came out about services.

00:16:08   And they said, well, what about bundles and what about giving it away for free?

00:16:11   Like you did with Apple TV Plus and Tim was very much like, well, you know, we did it for this one because we want to build the subscription number and we'll talk about that in a little bit.

00:16:21   But it's kind of a one time thing.

00:16:24   You know, maybe if we see another opportunity to give something away, we will as a gift, he calls it a gift to the users.

00:16:33   But don't plan on it. Like giving away services is not our plan. It was just our strategy for this one.

00:16:40   But then he said, about the broader idea of iPhones as a service, which the analyst asked about, he said, you know, we do the upgrade program and we're doing this 0% financing thing with Apple Card.

00:16:53   He's like, we're trying stuff. We're doing stuff. He said, for a lot of people, the upgrade program is exactly what you're describing.

00:17:00   It is a service for iPhones and we hope to do more of that.

00:17:03   So that's definitely strategically something that they like.

00:17:07   And it's interesting to see them using the Apple Card and saying, you know, Apple Card has other features.

00:17:11   Like Apple Card has a feature like this financing feature for buying iPhones.

00:17:16   And, you know, they're going to play with that part of their product mix too.

00:17:21   The Mac is down 5% year over year. Doesn't seem a surprise.

00:17:26   You know, they, there is, after listening to these calls for all this time, I end up with a bunch of jargon that only ever really gets used in the financial sector and in these calls.

00:17:38   So the Mac thing is what we would call a tough compare.

00:17:42   A tough compare is that...

00:17:45   Why do they need to talk this way? Just say comparison.

00:17:48   I don't know. There's already a word.

00:17:51   It's a tough compare, Myke.

00:17:52   The point here is that last year during the same time, Apple introduced a bunch of laptops that sold well.

00:17:59   And what they're saying is, you know, we didn't introduce anything new this year during the same period.

00:18:05   And so that's a sales spike last year that we didn't have this year. And that's why it's down.

00:18:09   They did say that in a bunch of regions that Mac was up for the whole financial, whole fiscal year Mac was up.

00:18:18   In a bunch of regions it was the best quarter or the best year. I think in Korea and the US it was the best Mac revenue year of all time, they said.

00:18:25   And then there were a bunch of other places where the fiscal fourth quarter was the best fiscal fourth quarter for Mac.

00:18:32   So they're cherry picking numbers a little bit, but basically they're like, "Yeah, it's down 5%, but that's really because of what we announced last year that we didn't do this year because we're not on an annual cycle with that stuff."

00:18:43   But we're happy with it and it actually had a great overall year and in certain regions it did very, very, very well.

00:18:50   So it's one of those things that, you know, it is the Mac down. I don't like to see the Mac down.

00:18:55   There is truth to that. They're comparing it to a year where they introduced new stuff people bought because they were excited about it and this quarter they didn't do that.

00:19:05   So how are you going to sell? Tough compare, Myke. That's what I'm saying. Tough compare.

00:19:09   Definitely. I think it's worth just playing a little fanfare and a little congratulations to the only product line that Apple makes of their computers, which is up year over year.

00:19:23   iPad, a good old friend iPad. Oh, the iPad, the only one. The only one? 17%. Good work, iPad. We're really proud of you.

00:19:33   iPad's doing really well this year. Really well, which is fantastic news. I'm very happy to see that.

00:19:39   Yeah, I actually, I think this was one of those things where they cited how all the new iPads, but especially the iPad Pro, are doing well.

00:19:46   And that's interesting to me because the iPad Pro is not a new product, right? It's a year old now and they didn't update it and they said it's doing great.

00:19:57   And I think that is, that's interesting. But the iPad, yeah, they seem to have really figured out that the iPad and with their new collection of different iPad models at different price points and all that, the iPad is, yeah, it's weird.

00:20:11   It's a little weird because they're the one that was down for all that time and now the iPad is bouncing back. It's nice.

00:20:18   And you know, I say it's like that iPad Pro, 11 inch iPad Pro, I think is my favorite Apple product ever made.

00:20:23   Yeah, it's, I love my 12.9 iPad Pro. Every now and then when I'm moving it from one case to another, I'll take it out of the case or I'm using it outside the case.

00:20:31   I'll be like, oh, this is so good. Like so good.

00:20:34   I should say I use the 12.9 every day, right? I don't use the 11 every day, but I think the 11 is the sweet spot for basically everybody.

00:20:41   Like I, I think the 12.9 inch iPad Pro is an edge case. Like I really think you have to be a very serious iPad user to want to have that device.

00:20:49   I think the 11 inch is the perfect medium.

00:20:51   Oh sure.

00:20:52   Like, you know, but, but like for people like me and you, the 12.9 makes so much sense because we use it all the time.

00:20:56   Beautiful, beautiful edge case.

00:20:57   Yes.

00:20:58   But yeah, that 11 inch iPad Pro is absolutely fantastic. Now check this one out. Wearables is up 54% year over year. That is absolutely massive.

00:21:08   Jason, is this all Apple watch?

00:21:11   Mmm, I mean, is it AirPods too?

00:21:15   Exactly. Right. This is the important thing, right? Like this is AirPods and Apple watch. Two products that we can assume are growing, right?

00:21:24   Like I don't think it's one or the other.

00:21:25   I think it's other products, right? So it's also accessories and so maybe it's just a lot of cases and a lot of Apple TVs, right?

00:21:32   Sure. Yeah, that's what it is.

00:21:34   It's, it's watches and, uh, and some AirPods too.

00:21:37   Now of course this does not include AirPods Pro, right? So like think about that.

00:21:42   Right.

00:21:43   Going into the holidays.

00:21:43   Right. Well, it, and it only includes a couple of weeks of the new Apple watch. So yeah, it's, this is, this is why they renamed this category and why they broke it out and are,

00:21:54   it's primed for a lot of growth and, and the Apple watch has been very successful. This is a, you know, a story that we're not going to talk about today, but like Google buying Fitbit.

00:22:03   I've seen a lot of stories about, you know, the current state of affairs of the smartwatch market.

00:22:09   And you know, the truth is the smartwatch market is the Apple watch, like the Apple watch people roll their eyes at like, Oh, Apple watch that didn't turn into a product the size of the iPhone, which it never was going to do.

00:22:19   But like it's extremely successful and nothing else in that category is really particularly successful. Uh, although Fitbit has a lot of fans. So, um, yeah, more, more power to the Apple watch.

00:22:34   In revenue, the wearables now accounts for 10%. iPad is 7%. Mac is 11%.

00:22:40   Yeah. Wearables is about to go to be a bigger business for Apple than the Mac.

00:22:44   Isn't that wild?

00:22:45   And that will happen. I think that is happening in the Q1 results.

00:22:49   Yeah.

00:22:49   Like over the whole day season. So like I like last year in, uh, the, in, in Q1, they did a 7.3 billion. I bet that hits 10 for, for this year.

00:23:00   Hmm. Could be.

00:23:01   I wouldn't be surprised to see that. And then of course the other one, the other big one.

00:23:05   Services set a new record as $12.5 billion now up from 10.6 year over year. Services now accounts for 20% of Apple's revenue. So it is bigger than the Mac and the iPad.

00:23:19   Um, uh, Apple quoted 450 million paid subscriptions across all their services and they expect to pass 500 million in 2020.

00:23:28   Yeah. It's, it's enormous. It grows every single quarter. This was the biggest services revenue quarter ever because it's the latest services revenue quarter.

00:23:39   And that's the thing for Apple, a company that is extremely seasonal because we're headed into that holiday quarter.

00:23:45   The holiday quarter is always the biggest quarter of the year for Apple. It is never, I think not been at least in, in recent memory.

00:23:52   Services doesn't do that because these are monthly and annual recurring fees. They just keep going up because they get, because of two things.

00:24:03   One is because Apple keeps expanding the installed base and they talk about this. There are, there are more Mac users than ever.

00:24:11   There are more iPhone users than ever, and there are more iPad users than ever.

00:24:16   And that's because...

00:24:16   They say like half of all iPad sales are to new users, they say something like that.

00:24:21   Yeah. And there's a replacement thing going on where what happens is when you buy a new iPhone or iPad or Mac, some percentage of those don't go out of service, right?

00:24:30   They get resold, they get turned back in and refurbished and resold. They get, they get handed down in a family.

00:24:35   And, and so even if iPhone sales are down and Mac sales are down, the total number of in use devices is up.

00:24:45   And that will mean that services revenue, presumably by some percentage will go up.

00:24:51   And the other thing is the average revenue per user is going up, which is Apple is making more services and selling those services to its users.

00:24:59   And those are the reasons why service revenue just keeps going up.

00:25:02   ARPU.

00:25:03   ARPU. That's average revenue per user. ARPU, which I wrote a, I wrote a little thing about that is just sort of like Apple is really trying to walk a line there where they want the business guys.

00:25:13   They want the analysts to be enthusiastic that Apple is increasing the average revenue per user, but Apple doesn't want to be seen as a craven company that is focused on squeezing money out of their existing customers instead of, you know, pleasing them and giving them things they love.

00:25:32   And so they walk this line and they've been doing it for a few years now where they will talk about increasing services revenue, but they always try to couch it in, you know, we're improving the experience for customers and our customers really love these services.

00:25:45   And, you know, yes, that increases our ARPU.

00:25:49   Terrible.

00:25:50   It's terrible.

00:25:51   This is terrible.

00:25:53   You thought a tough compare was bad. ARPU is the toughest compare.

00:25:56   Of all the compares, that is the worst one.

00:26:00   I mean, I expect one of the big drivers for this quarter is Apple Arcade, right? Like Apple Arcade becoming a new thing, right? Like that's all new money.

00:26:08   And the more and more people I talk to in my life, like, and I still agree with it from the start, like talk about how great value that is.

00:26:16   And that is a, like Apple Arcade is an incredible service.

00:26:19   Like they're adding five new games every single week and they have since it began.

00:26:24   The quality of the games is so good.

00:26:26   Like that was an absolute home run in my opinion.

00:26:29   And there's not a lot of Apple Arcade revenue in this quarter because everybody started with a trial.

00:26:34   So the Apple Arcade revenue is still to come.

00:26:38   I think it might, I think I'm a little bit skirted in there. I think a little bit may have gone in there.

00:26:43   I think I got charged quite recently, but who knows.

00:26:46   But yes, that is of course correct, right? That we may not have even seen the full effect of Apple Arcade yet.

00:26:51   Well, it launched in September and was a month trial.

00:26:55   And so the credit cards weren't charged until October, which is out of the scope of this.

00:26:59   So, wow. That's a great point. And I'm very keen to see what the next quarter is going to look like.

00:27:03   Wow. Okay. That could be big.

00:27:04   I guess I'm going to make a prediction here, Myke. I'm going to make a wild prediction.

00:27:07   Services revenue will be up.

00:27:09   Come on, Jason.

00:27:11   Yeah.

00:27:12   Get out of town.

00:27:13   No.

00:27:14   You've lost your mind.

00:27:15   Up, up, up.

00:27:16   All right. That is Apple earnings.

00:27:18   We're going to talk about Apple TV Plus.

00:27:20   We have been destined to do, but before we do, let me talk about Eero.

00:27:24   I want to thank them for their support of this episode.

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00:27:56   Yeah. All of these weird smart home devices that I have on the periphery of my network are actually on my Wi-Fi, which is not the case before.

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00:29:03   Our thanks to Eero for their support of this show and all of Relay FM.

00:29:07   So Jason, this is the time. This is probably the most important upstream segment.

00:29:12   Maybe more than just an upstream segment.

00:29:14   This is the launch, I guess, impressions of Apple TV+. It is now available.

00:29:20   I wanted to break it down a little bit. We're going to talk about the service and then touch on the shows themselves.

00:29:28   There's kind of a couple of different topics.

00:29:30   I have lots of thoughts about using Apple TV+ because I've had a particularly difficult weekend.

00:29:36   I guess the first thing that I wanted to mention, I don't know if you saw this, push notifications on every device.

00:29:41   Who even knew that the Apple TV could show badges? I didn't know that. Did you know that?

00:29:46   I don't know. I think I have seen that before.

00:29:49   I have a little badge, one badge on my Apple TV and every single device that I own.

00:29:54   I also got emails. I got emails telling me I have to try Apple TV+. After I'd already watched one of the shows.

00:30:00   So Apple being very serious on this, I kind of don't like it when they do that.

00:30:05   In the same way that I don't like that, if you take advantage of the one year trial, like I have, because I can.

00:30:14   I bought an Apple product this year so I could take advantage of that one year trial.

00:30:17   I will be charged immediately afterwards. It's on monthly so I can cancel it.

00:30:22   But there's something about that that I kind of just, it just doesn't sit right with me. I can't explain it.

00:30:27   I know this is what you do if you have a subscription business.

00:30:31   But I don't know. This is something I don't like about it but it is what it is.

00:30:36   Yeah, I mean that's the trade off, right? I think they're building a list and then they want you to pay.

00:30:42   And I'm sure, I mean I'm going to want to pay and I have no doubt about that but it still brushes me a little bit.

00:30:47   But I wanted to start watching these shows on Saturday and I couldn't watch them for about the first 36 hours that I was trying to watch them.

00:30:56   Because every time I tried to press play on one of the TV shows I would get an error telling me that Apple TV was not available in my region.

00:31:03   Which of course is completely incorrect.

00:31:06   So not only is that an unhelpful error just to say the video isn't available to watch in the country or region you're currently in.

00:31:13   It is categorically wrong because it is. I live in the UK.

00:31:18   Right? I also found, did you know there are some countries that are not getting Apple TV Plus?

00:31:22   Including Romania. I know this because I have friends in Romania who are very upset.

00:31:26   I can't work out what the reasoning is behind that. Like Apple owns this content. They can put it wherever they want.

00:31:33   It may be local regulations. You may have to get approval. You may have to have a certain amount of content that's created in the region.

00:31:41   There are lots of different restrictions.

00:31:44   I was wondering if it might be a language thing in some places. Like they haven't got the captions or they haven't got the video.

00:31:49   Yeah, they don't have all the Romanian audio and therefore they can't launch there. Yeah, could be.

00:31:54   But I just found the errors. There were many errors that many people were getting of trying to watch this.

00:32:00   It just felt like a disaster to me. I just couldn't watch the TV shows. I was very annoyed about it.

00:32:06   Because it was just like, "How many more bugs are you going to give me, Apple?"

00:32:10   Like, "How many more?" I'm getting frustrated at the fact that every single week on this show I am bringing a new issue that I'm facing.

00:32:17   But they are things that are happening to me and I want to share them. But it's just very frustrating.

00:32:23   But anyway, moving on from that, I got it to work on Sunday and I've watched as much of the content as possible.

00:32:29   We'll talk about that in a bit.

00:32:31   I found it very peculiar that they don't have one of those, like if you're watching a show, the immediate countdown to start the next episode.

00:32:39   You know what I mean? Like Netflix has this, Amazon Prime has this.

00:32:43   It just starts ticking down and after 5 or 10 seconds, the next episode will begin.

00:32:48   They have this little drawer that pops up from the bottom to recommend new up next content to you.

00:32:53   But sometimes that didn't even have the next episode of the show that I'm supposed to be watching.

00:32:58   Which is like I was in like episode 2 of Raw Mankind and then it pops up and recommends that I start Dickinson.

00:33:04   It's like, "What about episode 3 of the show I am currently watching?"

00:33:08   If I ever stopped watching and went back to the menu and started the episode again, it would exactly start the episode again.

00:33:18   Would not remember my place.

00:33:20   They do have a skip intro, which I know Todd Vaziri is probably very happy about.

00:33:26   No, sure not. Definitely not.

00:33:28   Apple TV plus the app is designed nicely.

00:33:34   I think things are laid out. The Apple TV plus section of the TV app is fine.

00:33:41   I found the design of it fine.

00:33:43   But the actual functionality is still lacking and it's kind of hilarious.

00:33:49   Apple, you are the company that makes this.

00:33:52   You should have made a better experience than this one.

00:33:55   Yeah, I think it's interesting that we spent so much time here talking about Apple making TV shows and what that means and how they're going to handle what the standards are and can they do it and how do they roll that out and all of those things.

00:34:13   And didn't give as much attention to the idea that they have to roll it all out inside the TV app and the TV app has a lot of issues and that relying on the TV app might be the biggest impediment in the launch of the service.

00:34:28   But that feels like it's the case.

00:34:30   Like that TV app for some people who are very app centric. This will be their first experience with the TV app, which is part of the reason Apple is doing this right part of the reason Apple TV shows Apple TV plus exists is to get people in the TV app because they want the TV app to be the central hub for this.

00:34:48   They want to drive.

00:34:49   They want to sell you channels.

00:34:50   They want to drive you into other other content from the TV app and then they want to be able to have their stuff there too. And it's a beautiful thing that everything is all combined together great.

00:35:01   The problem that so there are sync problems.

00:35:06   I know we've heard from a bunch of people about it.

00:35:08   I definitely experienced that where you watch five minutes of a show and then you go back later and it starts you at the beginning again. You're like, wait a second. That's not and this seems like table stakes, right? Like all of the streaming services that I use are pretty good at sinking properly to where I last saw the show.

00:35:25   And there's the UI issue too, which is, you know, Apple the Apple TV app was built as this kind of neutral purveyor of lots of different shows from lots of different sources. And now that Apple's got their own service.

00:35:40   I expected Apple to be a little more in your face in the app saying here is Apple TV plus you have it and if you don't have it there advertising it like you have it here are the shows and you can get there you can scroll down and find a kind of not particularly aggressively labeled thing that will get you a list of what's on Apple TV plus if you scroll down to discover to Apple TV plus you can click on that and you will see all the shows.

00:36:09   And they're promoting their shows sort of within up next and within what to watch but they're doing it with other shows too. And I've definitely heard from a lot of people who open the TV app having gotten Apple TV plus and are like, where is it?

00:36:22   And I think it's kind of funny that I appreciate Apple's, you know, whatever objectivity or something and saying well, you know, we're not just this isn't just about us.

00:36:31   It's about the whole TV experience including all the other content but there should probably be something at the top that is screaming here are the Apple TV plus shows that are available right now and you know mine didn't do that.

00:36:48   Apple TV plus could be a legitimate section in the top navigation section. You could have Apple TV plus TV shows right like you could like movies, you know, right right and in you know be on the watch now and just making it a little more a little more obvious than it is.

00:37:08   Because yes there you know, you can scroll through and see some different shows and all that. I'm just a little surprised because when you open the TV app when Apple TV plus launches and what I got was I got a bunch of like movies.

00:37:18   I've been watching and TV shows that I bought and and have been and watching and various things in the up next and in the what to watch the same way. It's like, oh, well, you know, here's a thing from CBS all access and here's a thing from HBO that you've that you've watched

00:37:31   and like okay, but you know, where are the Apple TV shows and then you scroll down and you get it. I'm just I'm surprised and although I applaud the restraint because I think Apple's got Partners and the TV app is supposed to be more than just Apple TV plus at the same time, especially when you're launching and you've got new people may be using this app for the first time making it really really super obvious that here is the list of everything you get for being an Apple TV plus subscriber

00:38:00   is probably something you should do and they they didn't do it. You know, they unless the idea is that Apple TV plus shows are just meant to kind of like sprinkle in more content into the TV app the richness of the TV app, but I don't think they're spending billions of dollars for it to just be the leavening inside of the TV app.

00:38:22   So yeah, I was I was perplexed by by that and by some of the technical shortcomings who knew that Apple would launch a new TV service and one of the big things that we be talking about is that they didn't do the technical part.

00:38:36   Well, I mean, well, that's that's the thing is I feel I feel bad about it because it's sort of like I took my eye off the ball because I was so focused on them making these shows and what were the shows going to be like and I should have spent more time thinking TV app going to be better or or not maybe not.

00:38:57   Definitely not. But the most important part is the content. So let's talk about the content. Start with the morning show, which I feel like is what Apple is publicly showing to be its crown jewel in this right now.

00:39:11   I think we all I assumed it would be C, but I think it seems like a lot of the promotion that I have seen has been focused around the morning show.

00:39:20   And I think that's because of the start the names I have attached to it. Right. Jennifer Aniston, Reese Witherspoon, Steve Carell. It's big, right? People know those people know at least one of them. Big show.

00:39:29   I'm going to start off by saying I've watched all of this and I absolutely loved it. Loved it. Fantastic TV show.

00:39:37   I both me and Nadina were like cannot wait for more. It felt like a very intellectual show. We're like constantly pausing it to discuss what we're seeing and talking about what we're feeling.

00:39:51   I will say that like over the first three I'm pleased they had all three episodes because I think it needs that to kind of like the story to be really pulled apart.

00:40:01   And as well for you to feel the pressure in the show. Like it feels like a pressure cooker and you need I think to watch all of it in my opinion to get that.

00:40:11   And I think that's why a lot of the reviews right are like saying oh episode three it starts to turn around and that is really where the story turns up.

00:40:20   But I enjoyed it from the beginning. Yeah I've only seen episode one so I haven't. I'm really keen to see how you feel about it.

00:40:28   When you watch all of it. It's very dramatic. The production values are very high. I think it looks great. Beautiful TV show.

00:40:38   Looks great. Great cast. You can tell they spent a lot of money. They spent a lot of money on the production and they spent a lot of money on the actors for sure.

00:40:45   I think Jennifer Aniston is absolutely fantastic in this show. It feels like she is the lead of the show. I feel like that wasn't necessarily clear but the show is really at least again in the first three episodes.

00:41:01   It's very focused around her. Yeah she's certainly at the center of it and the inciting action for the show is all about people kind of like coming and going and whirling around her and she's at the center.

00:41:12   Whether that's the case in the long term it's unclear but yeah it feels at least in the early going that this is not a sort of joint effort of Aniston and Witherspoon or Aniston Witherspoon and Correll.

00:41:25   But it really is Aniston at the center but that may change over time because the story the way the story is working you know it certainly could be going in that direction.

00:41:33   Yeah it could flip and I think it probably at parts in the show the focus will change. There are Apple products everywhere in the show which is of course kind of funny to me.

00:41:43   Yeah it made me laugh. The first five minutes is literally just everybody getting phone calls on their iPhone and texts on their iPhone.

00:41:50   But it's realistic I guess but it's still just kind of funny. I wonder if I would have noticed it as much if I didn't know Apple was making it.

00:41:58   If it was an HBO show I would not have thought about it. I would have thought like well maybe Apple's paying for product placement but it's not as ridiculous except in the context of it being an Apple show.

00:42:09   It is ridiculous when they show all of the notifications from Apple News.

00:42:14   From Apple News yes that pushes it that is a you know of all the unrealistic things in the in this show.

00:42:20   You know I liked it I'm kind of torn on it. I will watch more. You know it's fun to have a show that's all about like people standing up and pontificating about the importance of journalism and the media and all of that.

00:42:32   At the same time you know it's like I feel pandered to a little bit. At the same time I also find it kind of unrealistic and ridiculous and also kind of dated.

00:42:43   It's funny too because the show knows that it's kind of dated. They actually talk about like people like the internet and streaming and network TV being like less relevant.

00:42:55   I found that to be interesting though. I like that. I like that like you know that they're kind of like well we know where this industry is going.

00:43:04   And I kind of like the inception moment of like yeah it's because of Apple TV Plus right like that's why broadcast television is on the way out.

00:43:15   I kind of like that.

00:43:16   The question is how much of that is hanging a lantern on it versus actually grappling with those issues and I say that because there's that scene but there's also the scene where in the first episode where the slimy network executive played by Billy Crudup.

00:43:36   Perfect.

00:43:37   He's great. He's super super creepy slimy guy. He you know so we talked about that and yet he goes on this on this kind of extended rant with the producer of the show about how the two hosts of the morning show are like mom and dad.

00:43:54   And we you know we need to have this there their mom and dad figures and they have kind of attention and and if you lose one of those figures you can't just bring in a new mom or a new dad you have to you know you have to rethink the whole thing and he's maneuvering to get one of the characters.

00:44:11   I'm not going to spoil it for people haven't seen to get one of the characters off the show.

00:44:15   The problem with that is I'm sitting there thinking there is literally nobody watching the show who is so young that they would think these characters are mom and dad everybody who's watching network TV in the morning is either the age of these characters or a lot older.

00:44:32   But I think that that's one of those so that's that that's the problem here is like they want to make this show about TV and they can recognize that it's not what it was but at the same time they kind of can't because it's like there are not young people.

00:44:46   I think maybe somebody from the Today show can tell me about their demographics but I don't think there are a lot of people watching morning TV thinking that the main anchors are mom and dad.

00:44:57   More like they're their kids right because the fact is TV viewers are older now.

00:45:03   So I you know it was stuff like that that I just kept thinking of that that it is it is a nostalgic and unrealistic and it doesn't mean it can't be fun but I did my brain kept on being like really is this but it looks great.

00:45:17   The only other the only other note I have through one episode which is I'm not sure I am ever going to love a show that is essentially the sad lives of very rich successful people.

00:45:32   And it's not my favorite and like there are moments in the first episode where the show really wants you to feel for Jennifer Aniston and I think to myself and she's like oh I could be ruined you know my life could be ruined and I'm sitting there thinking that's interesting.

00:45:49   I think it's interesting.

00:45:50   Well, I like that they're showing how much money they have.

00:45:52   I think that it is a an interesting presentation of a type of show like this.

00:45:57   I know and I don't think it bothers everybody but I had those moments where it gets ramped up to be like I'm ruined.

00:46:04   This is the end of my life and I'm like well you've got millions and millions and millions of dollars.

00:46:09   So your career might be ruined but you know what?

00:46:13   You're going to be fine right like there is that aspect of it that's always back there which is and sometimes people you know people want to watch shows that are about about rich successful people and the beautiful things that they've got and I get all of that.

00:46:24   But there are moments where I where I think to myself oh yes I am very concerned about whether these incredibly rich people at the top of their careers might lose their jobs.

00:46:35   The assumption though that is all she cares about is money and I don't think that means so like when I read of when she's saying that like my career is like it's not about money.

00:46:45   She wants to work and if she gets pushed out and it's the same as like Steve Carell right he because of his situation he can't get a job now and it's like well now he's lost because he has no career.

00:47:00   So that's how I read it but I get you.

00:47:02   Well here we go where it gives you a lot to discuss right.

00:47:05   My other my other notes about the show and I like I said I thought it was okay but I am a little bit confused about what they're doing with the Reese Witherspoon character maybe more episodes will get me the sense because partly what they want to do is portray her as being this person who's kind of like at the dead end and she's in this you know Virginia cable news network and she can't even nobody likes her and she can't even get a job as an anchor.

00:47:29   And she gets invited to at one point to be interviewed in New York and I had this thought of like it's really playing like there's this established person and then this new person is coming in to threaten them who is Reese Witherspoon and the way the script kind of reads it.

00:47:45   I just think it's really weird because Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston although not the same age are very close in age and Reese Witherspoon's character plays like she is a like somebody in their 20s who is just starting out.

00:48:00   And so I think the question for me is going to be do they address that in a way that that actually feels natural or do I look at that and say oh you needed to spackle over the fact that this doesn't really make a lot of sense and I remain open to it if she is if she is a washout and and she's keep sabotaging her own career.

00:48:18   Then that that or whatever the answer is I'm looking forward to that but in the first episode is sort of like I'm not sure this character makes sense anyway we'll see and then my last note is just that no I know too much about the back story here which is that this was a concept and then a whole bunch of me to stuff happened including Matt Lauer from the Today show and there was some change and they wanted to address that and that's how Steve Carell's character comes in and my understanding is they change showrunners at one point.

00:48:47   And so the other thing that struck me because I know too much was seeing how this is kind of like they they built a structure for a show and then they put another little structure inside the structure and said that's our show which is interesting and could actually lead to interesting places.

00:49:05   But I don't know it's it's a I am fascinated that this is what everybody thinks of as the as the the big prestige top line face of Apple TV plus it is it's fascinating that this is that show but you know I thought it was okay.

00:49:20   I like it a lot. I want to see how you feel about it once you've seen all that that's going to be some good follow up. I just wonder if your opinion will change.

00:49:29   Especially there is some of the things that you mentioned that are like weird parts of the story I think they do get cleared up. Okay, but I'll see if they are to a level at which you think is whether it feels natural or not right.

00:49:39   That's the that's the real question. So so no I'll watch more. I am you know, I'm a sucker for the big like I said big gauzy well-lit warmly lit beautiful people interesting stories talking about how great the media and journalism is.

00:49:55   But nothing is more for you than for all mankind. It's true. It's it is it is extremely my day. I also really love this one love this very good.

00:50:06   This show really plays of you a lot. There's lots of twists lots of turns because it is that all history, you know, like they can do anything. Yeah that that in episode 2 you really get that sense that they want to it's very clear from the very beginning of episode one that we're in an alternate history that we're in things are not happening the way that they happened in our

00:50:24   world but episode 2 goes to great lengths to show you that all the things that seem like they're happening the way they happened in our world anyway are not right like and that is a good moment in terms of setting the stakes and saying you need to stop assuming that history is going to more or less follow the track that it did because it's not going to I really like how they use archival footage in the show that there's a lot of it right like they use a lot of it they they they use it sometimes just to inform the story.

00:50:53   Sometimes just to inform us the viewer like they show sometimes this is who this person was in history and is who they are in the show. Sometimes it's used in the show itself right like they they show archival footage on the television and into like splice it with new footage is kind of interesting right.

00:51:12   Yeah and and it's very well done where they will they will put in characters that need to say things that are very specific that to the show and they will do that but they also will use archival footage and there are a few cases they've got like a Nixon impersonator and they keep playing Nixon tapes and they show Nixon at times but they don't they don't try to have the the mouth match up because it's like you know it's it's they cut away or it's just Nixon talking or or Ted Kennedy at one point and they just try there's an I dream of Jeannie episode that we're going to see.

00:51:41   Jeannie episode that is not about reality but the way it's played in the episode is that it is about reality which is amazing. So it's some really I will tell you as a space nut that they did their research here. In fact, I will put a link in the show notes.

00:51:59   So the show liftoff episode 99 is all about Apollo 10 and the you know watching the show I'm like oh my they yeah they got it they like they've got the details of Apollo 10 they change the names of those two astronauts because those are two of the main characters and they're going to take them in places that I think they felt uncomfortable using real people.

00:52:17   They change their names and those are the people who are played by Mr. Sad Spy and Mr. Ultra Carbon.

00:52:33   And so to see what is the guy's name Michael Dorman plays Gordo Stevens to see him have such a such a starring role right like he's kind of like the supporting male character. I was really pleased about that.

00:52:49   Yeah, oh yeah it's a and the main the other guy is the altered carbon guy. Joel Kinnaman. Joel Kinnaman. He's also in House of Cards. That's where I know him from. And some slow TV too I forget what else he's been in but yeah.

00:53:06   So yeah I thought it was great. I thought the stakes were high. I think they're it's an interesting combination of real people characters and fictionalized characters. I was so surprised to see Neil Armstrong on Puzzle

00:53:28   I was really excited to see that. I thought that that was a really cool addition. Oh he's a real guy?

00:53:38   Yeah, I mean failure is not an option. He gives a version of that speech in here. So that's a real guy. All the other ancillary characters more or less are people from history that they're bringing in. The characters that are very clearly invented they give new names to but a lot of the people around them are actual historical figures and they seem to be doing some remixing of that too where they've got people who exist in reality that they're bringing in as time goes on

00:54:07   with slightly different roles. It's very interesting. Wernher von Braun is a good example too where he's the head of basically the rocket efforts at NASA. He builds the Saturn V and his history working in Nazi Germany is brought up to destroy him and at one point in one of these episodes.

00:54:29   That's all true. It didn't come out in that way at that time but those are all the issues about Wernher von Braun is who worked in his factories and there were people in horrible prison camp conditions and did he see them and he always denied that he saw them but it kind of strains credulity and it all is being used in a different way in the show but it's all based on historical fact. I think that's very interesting too.

00:54:56   So I loved it. Of course I loved it is the thing so I don't know how to judge it beyond that but I thought it was really interesting and the fact that they are continuing this divergence from history and following it where it leads.

00:55:11   The other thing I'll say about it is for a show it's so easy to do a show or a movie about the space program in the 60s and have it be an entire cast of white men because that's who it was at NASA in that period is almost entirely white men.

00:55:29   And then there's like but over here there was hidden figures and over here were the Mercury 13 where the women who took all of the tests for the Mercury program to say that women should be astronauts too and then they were just shunted aside and this show addresses all of that and in a very interesting way where it basically says oh once this inciting event in For All Mankind happens then

00:55:50   The doors can get blown open basically. The doors get blown open because of that inciting event and things really change and so you see a lot of people who are not the kind of people we tell astronaut stories about having their stories told which is also pretty cool.

00:56:05   I'm getting big Mad Men vibes from this show.

00:56:09   Sure I mean at this point it's a period show it's late 60s early 70s and they have leaned into it for sure.

00:56:17   But it's not just like the fact that the cars and the clothes and the vibe is like all of it's so beautiful it has fantastic music as well like music is greatly great music, but just the way that the story is playing out where it's looking at the people and the families and the inter dynamics between all of that like I find that really interesting.

00:56:36   I am so surprised at how fast the story is moving but it makes sense based on what we know about the show. So like in the first three episodes they span like 10 years nearly.

00:56:47   Yeah and I think Ron Moore I don't know if it's 10 years but it's multiple years.

00:56:51   It's like two or three years but I think there was a story about how Ron Moore like sketched out his seven year plan for the show or whatever and that it's like the long arc of history they will reach us and probably go past us right in time.

00:57:05   It feels like that's gonna happen.

00:57:06   So yeah exactly right and we'll see some of these characters continue maybe but it might be the kids of some of these characters or some of the characters introduced as kids who will become main characters.

00:57:15   Which they already started doing right like.

00:57:17   Yes there's some there is some some moments there too. Okay there's a lot of Apple TV talk I haven't seen C and Dickinson but you have so we should very quickly find out what you think.

00:57:29   I haven't seen one episode of each. I was least keen to watch C and I was 100% right. This show could not be less for me. It's very Game of Thrones-y I guess even though Adina who also didn't like it really disagrees with me because she loves Game of Thrones.

00:57:45   But from my perspective armies running at each other and cutting heads off with swords that's Game of Thrones to me right and like I don't care for that kind of thing. There's so much more violence and gore in this than I need.

00:57:59   And this show like we didn't really touch on the family friendly thing. This show is not family friendly in any stretch of the imagination. It is violent and language is strong the themes are difficult and it's very sexual. So this is Apple's HBO show in that regard.

00:58:17   Right like that they have done all of those things and I think that it's most of it's very gratuitous and that's kind of what I don't appreciate in a Game of Thrones-y type show. Like to me it just feels like some things you're doing just for the sake of doing them.

00:58:33   And that's not what I like about television. Like you compare this against the other two shows and you'll see you might get an idea of like the type of content that I enjoy and see is not it.

00:58:55   The way that they deal with the site stuff is interesting. I found my level of intrigue for the story starting to rise towards the end of the first episode but I'm not going to be watching any more of it. This show is not my jam.

00:59:10   What about Dickinson?

00:59:11   I did not know what to expect from Dickinson because I didn't understand this show. I couldn't understand its purpose.

00:59:19   Do you know who Emily Dickinson is?

00:59:21   Yes.

00:59:22   She's an American poet so I don't know if they even read her poems.

00:59:26   Yeah we get Dickinson. Don't worry we get her.

00:59:28   But what I didn't understand about this show is what it seemed from the trailers where it felt like they were somehow for some reason merging period drama and modern drama together. Like the language, the music, the pacing. It seemed very peculiar. Like I didn't understand what type of show they were making.

00:59:47   But now when I watch it I'm like I like this. The editing is super fast paced. It is not at all like a period drama in the fact that it just looks like one. Everything else feels like modern teen drama.

01:00:01   There is like again adult themes but it plays in a way that makes more sense to me than in C. I really like the music is incredibly unexpected because it's all modern. The editing is all modern. They use really interesting camera angles. It is weird and interesting to mix these two things together but it's done in such a way that is really compelling and I think a lot of that focuses around Hailee Steinfeld's performance.

01:00:29   She is very good and I think that is fitting the role very well. She has a good attitude. I like the tone of this way more than I would have expected. I think that it is I expect quite difficult to create a show like this because they are using Emily Dickinson's poetry as the way to inform the story.

01:00:51   That must be complicated. You are working backwards and trying to create a world based on it. But I really liked it. I am definitely going to be watching more of it. This is a 30 minute show. The rest are one hour. So there is like 10 episodes or something while the rest are 3.

01:01:06   I didn't think it was going to be for me because I am not really a period drama guy. I am like Downton Abbey. I can't even think of what you would call that type of period drama because you refer to Mad Men as a period drama now.

01:01:24   Which makes sense. But that time frame wasn't really my kind of jam. But the way that that is basically just set dressing for everything else is very interesting. So I will be watching more of Dickinson. It was very entertaining.

01:01:42   I am intrigued by the idea of mixing it like this and not having it be a period drama that is not a period drama. It is a thing. I have actually heard very positive things. I think it also says something that this is the show that nobody talked about in advance.

01:01:57   It was mentioned but it was never the other three were the ones where everybody is talking about oh they are doing this show and that show. I feel like Dickinson because it didn't have the expectations and it was a little bit of a surprise.

01:02:06   It didn't have the star power either. I think that is one of the reasons the other three got the focus.

01:02:12   But I think I have seen a lot of positive buzz about it. People are surprised and pleased by it. One of the things that we are going to learn is Apple is going to learn some things about what the critics think but they are also going to learn about what their user base thinks in terms of which shows stick or not.

01:02:28   The other thing is we are not going to be able to tell for a year and a half, two years exactly what that means. The first year plus of Apple TV Plus had to be bought in advance because it takes so long to produce TV.

01:02:43   We are seeing shows that were bought two years ago. So there will be a period of adjustment based on how people take to the service that will be kind of fascinating to watch.

01:02:53   Also, and I think I brought this up next week, now that these shows are out people in Hollywood who make TV can look at these and go, "Oh, I could do that show at Apple."

01:03:03   Where they might not have thought that before because of all the talk about that. They may look at the shows and go, "Oh yeah, I could make this show at Apple. Now that I know what it is, I can make my show there."

01:03:13   I don't see how people were saying that they were only going to make family friendly content because none of the content that they released that is not a kids show is family friendly.

01:03:25   So, you know, I don't really get where that was coming from.

01:03:30   I mean, my guess is it was somebody who was fired or given some notes and got really angry and thought that that was because of Apple's policy and it was them, not Apple.

01:03:47   Or it was just for that show.

01:03:50   Or it was a show that was intended as part of Apple's strategy for a family audience, not Apple's strategy for an adult audience. My theory is that this is actually about amazing stories.

01:04:01   That the guys got fired off of amazing stories because they came into the project thinking they were going to do this edgy, amazing stories for a modern audience and it would be different and we're going to blow all the doors off.

01:04:12   And then Spielberg made the deal with Apple and those guys were told, "No, we wanted it family friendly." And they got angry about it.

01:04:18   But very clearly, if you look at See and The Morning Show and For All Mankind, it's not really an issue on those shows. So maybe it was just your show.

01:04:27   And if you're thinking, "Oh, Apple only have adult content. That's not true. It's just stuff that I've watched."

01:04:33   So the Snoopy show and Helpsters and Ghostwriter, they're like three shows that are focused around family and kids stuff.

01:04:40   I will say for people who thought that Apple TV+ would be a place for them to watch shows that are for grown-ups but that don't have the violence and language that you find on so many streaming shows, I got bad news for you.

01:04:55   Every single one of the shows we talked about is TVMA and there is within the first 30 seconds, I would say, of these shows, it's very clearly not going to be something that is going to work for you if you can't handle violence or language or stuff like that.

01:05:13   These are modern streaming shows. They really are. I would not be surprised if they had been on Netflix or Amazon.

01:05:20   Yep. They are completely in that style. I'm going to say for me, I'm very happy with the content. There are three television shows that I want to watch now from Apple TV+ and I've only watched four of them.

01:05:32   So the fact that I got a 75% success rate, I think, is much more than I would have given them six months ago. So I think that that's really great.

01:05:41   And for me, For All Mankind is now on my list of we're going to watch that on Friday when it comes out. That, to me, is the ultimate endorsement. They're the shows I watch. They're the shows I let pile up and then I'll get back to them.

01:05:53   And then they're the shows that when there's a release, if it's a binge release, I will be watching them every day until they're gone. And if it's a weekly release, I will watch it basically the day it comes out.

01:06:04   Appointment viewing.

01:06:05   And that's a very small number of shows. Very small. But For All Mankind is on that list now.

01:06:09   Do we know when there will be more episodes?

01:06:11   I believe Friday. I think Apple's plan is to do weekly releases on Fridays. And then there'll be new shows every season. I think maybe it's every few months, every three months or something like that.

01:06:24   But it's unclear how they're going to roll out new shows versus rolling out the weeklies. But it sounds like Fridays, they're going to just keep releasing new episodes.

01:06:33   All right. So Apple TV Plus, we're going to have more to say in the coming weeks for sure. But that is our initial impressions today.

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01:08:04   So AirPods Pro, we spoke about them last week because they had been out. Now we have them.

01:08:10   And been using them for close to a week.

01:08:13   I've used them in a bunch of different settings, both at home and traveling out and around London.

01:08:18   And I am absolutely super pleased with these headphones. I love them very much, Jason.

01:08:26   They're good. They're good. They're not going to be for everybody because of the price, because you can get the cheaper ones if that's what you need and you don't need the features of these.

01:08:36   And everybody's got feelings about whether they like canal phones, you know, which is what these essentially are.

01:08:41   They're sticking in your ear canal versus earbuds that sit on the outside versus over-ear or on-ear headphones.

01:08:48   Everybody's got a different take on it. But I think these will appeal to a broader group.

01:08:52   And now you put the two products together and Apple is appealing to a wider group even within Apple AirPods separate from Beats.

01:09:00   And I had never tried noise canceling in-ear headphones before. I'd only ever tried the over-ear kind, which is not my favorite kind of headphone.

01:09:09   And I was impressed. Like, I was really skeptical that putting little earbuds in your ears was really going to block out enough of the sound even with, you know, you're covering your ears and then also noise canceling.

01:09:24   I was like, "Really? Is it going to really do it?" It's pretty good. It's pretty good.

01:09:29   So I have been really impressed when commuting. So I tried them out going around London. I like using transparency mode, right?

01:09:39   This is where it lets sound come in when I'm kind of walking around. I don't want to use noise cancellation when I'm like walking around in the streets crossing roads and stuff like that.

01:09:48   It doesn't feel right to me. And I found that using transparency mode doesn't feel weird when you're using it for a long period of time.

01:09:55   It doesn't feel like what I thought would feel like that the microphones are bringing the sound in. It just feels like I can hear what's around me.

01:10:03   I had some instances, like very few occasions, where like something would seem louder than I would have expected, but it was nothing that was a big concern.

01:10:11   And then when I'm like on the tube, like I'm on the underground and it's super noisy, I just turn on noise cancellation and it cuts basically all the noise out.

01:10:19   Like it is not completely, which is actually good because I get a sense of when announcements and stuff are happening.

01:10:24   But like the droning sounds, the sounds of the trains, the sounds of like other passengers, they're basically all gone.

01:10:31   Being able to so easily switch between those modes by like using the force sensor, right? Like just like squeezing the little stem of the AirPod is awesome.

01:10:40   Like I love that button. I have more usability. I find it more comfortable, right? Like I have more actions available to me. It's exactly what I wanted.

01:10:47   And being able to switch with those is brilliant.

01:10:50   Yeah. And one of the things that I think is clever is they have taken the old clicker from your headphone cable and put it in that thing.

01:11:00   So hardwired, always available are once to pause or play, double click to go forward, triple click to go back. Those are just there always.

01:11:11   And then the customizable thing is the squeeze, the whole squeeze and hold, and that can, you can set that to be different on the left and the right.

01:11:20   But there's a lot less need to do customization because you've got play, pause next and previous already built in.

01:11:28   And so it takes a moment to remember like what surface you're squeezing and all of that.

01:11:34   But once you spend a little time with it, it, um, it's, it's really nice. And I know you hate the slap the side of my head in order to advance tracks on the regular AirPods.

01:11:45   And, um, I didn't hate it as much as you, but this is so much better.

01:11:49   Yeah. It's an, I hadn't realized how much I missed, like double tap to skip song. I'm using it now.

01:11:56   It was like, Oh yeah, this is nice. The rather than getting my phone out and skipping that way.

01:12:01   I was just, you know, whacking the side of my head with my hands and it's not, it was not, it was not pleasant.

01:12:08   This is, this requires a more fine gesture, right? You do have to reach up and touch and squeeze in order to do it.

01:12:13   Whereas the old one, I get that some people will prefer that old gesture because you're just going, you know, bang, bang and off you go.

01:12:20   Uh, but this is a nicer gesture. And I know that, you know, it, for a lot of people, the old gestures were so bad that they just didn't want to use them because they didn't want to hit,

01:12:30   hit themselves in the ear.

01:12:31   Yep. Um, I am certainly aware of noise cancellation, right? Like in the sense of, like previously I found it made me nauseated or like made me feel disorientated when I use it, but it doesn't.

01:12:44   I'm aware when it's on, but I don't feel weird using it. Um, I've found that I can use it for extended periods of time without as much bother as I found in the past.

01:12:54   And a similar thing goes with the fit of the earphones. I've always had a problem with my left ear with canal phones, right? The earphones that go into your ears.

01:13:02   The left one, it either cause pain or that the earphone would eventually fall out. Um, but I, so like this is happening, but it's way, it's better, right?

01:13:13   Like I find that over time, using for long periods of time, the left one starts to get a little looser, but because AirPods Pro is so light, it is way less frequent that I have to adjust it. Like nothing's pulling on it.

01:13:24   Um, and they have a very light earphone. So I've found that I haven't needed to adjust as much. Um, I'm using the small tips cause they're the only ones that are comfortable for me.

01:13:34   Um, but I've found that even over many hours of use, I've found them very comfortable. Uh, next week I'm going to be taking a plane trip and I'm really interested of how these things are going to sound with, uh, like an airplane noise.

01:13:50   I've tried them out with stuff like extractor fans, right? You know, like you have like over the hub of a cooker at home or whatever, right? Um, and like leaving, turning those on and then putting on nose cancellation.

01:14:00   And the amount that it takes away is mind blowing. Uh, and so I'm super intrigued to see what it's like to fly with these, but I'm really, really happy with the AirPods Pro. I think they're fantastic.

01:14:12   And I haven't done my lawnmower test yet, but I have to do that.

01:14:15   Ah, got to get a lawnmower test.

01:14:17   I will report back on the lawnmower test. I got to mow the lawn is what I'm saying. I really do need to mow the lawn. Um, I, yeah, I'm liking them so far.

01:14:24   I have, you know, my right ear, I start to feel it after a while, but I honestly, I start to feel AirPods standard AirPods after a while in a different way. Right? Cause they're digging into the, the area around my ear.

01:14:39   And, um, this is sort of like pushing into the ear canal. So it's a different kind of discomfort.

01:14:44   Fact is any headphones, if I wear her a very long time, I am going to be uncomfortable in some way, right? Depending on what kind of earphones they are, all of them will make me a little uncomfortable in some way. That's just how it is.

01:14:55   But, uh, these are pretty comfortable. And, um, I like the, I like the different effects. I'm somebody who is so used to completely blocking my ears with custom, uh, ear tips, which is what I use.

01:15:07   Like I'm using right now that I always felt like the original AirPods, um, were incredibly transparent.

01:15:14   And, uh, it was nice because I felt like I was really much more clear about what was happening around me. This transparency mode is nice. It's fascinating because it's this synthetic transparency. They're blocking your ears and then feeding sound in.

01:15:28   And it is in stereo. If there's a car coming from the right, you will hear it come from the right and then pass you. And then you'll hear it from the left. It's not like a mono thing. It is full stereo effect.

01:15:39   It's very clever, very well done. And I think is, uh, it's good that it's so easy to use because that's what Apple's trying to encourage you to do is use transparency in order to not block out the world when you don't, when you shouldn't block out the world.

01:15:52   I've also heard from a bunch of people who love the transparency mode because they can put their music on, but kind of low and they get to just sort of have music playing in their world and nobody else hears it and they can still hear other people, but they can, uh, it's a, yeah, it's a good thing.

01:16:08   Yeah, I really like it. Um, I'm, I'm very, very happy with them. I think they're doing a, they're doing a good job. I think they're going to be, they're going to be popular, right? This is, this is, um, they're, they're killing it on AirPods. Like this is, this is maybe the most impressive product that Apple has released in the last few years.

01:16:28   I mean, the iPad pro I really love too, but like the AirPods, everybody loves the AirPods and they're, they're really good. And you know, there are going to be people who are audio files will be like, well, you know, this one could be a little bit better, but if you're, especially if you're in the Apple ecosystem because of the auto pairing and easy switching and all of those things, um, they're, they're a great choice.

01:16:45   And I say that as somebody who was always really skeptical about Apple's, uh, headphones over the years, but with AirPods and now with AirPods pro, like they're putting out some really good stuff. It is impossible to think of just how much is packed in those little tiny earbuds. It's like, there's a 10 core, you know, audio processor in there. It's just, it's, it's amazing.

01:17:06   All right. Today's episode is also brought to you by FreshBooks. If you are a freelancer who needs to save some time, FreshBooks can do that by helping you simplify tasks like invoicing, tracking expenses, or getting paid online.

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01:17:47   And then it's not just about the invoice itself. I mean, FreshBooks is fantastic for an, like for creating the invoices. They have a WYSIWYG system. So what you're creating, how you're entering in the information, it is shown to you in the way that it will be received by your client.

01:18:01   But then they also take out all of the busy work afterwards, which is checking with people if they've received your invoice, helping them with how to pay you. All of that stuff is taken care of by FreshBooks.

01:18:12   They can show you when it's been seen. They can chase up a client for you automatically if you want. And they can also give you an integrate many ways for you to get paid.

01:18:23   I love FreshBooks. We have been using them at Relay FM for over five years since our company started. The first invoice that we ever sent was sent by FreshBooks. And that continues to this day. We have sent thousands.

01:18:35   Over, I think we are approaching like 3000 invoices sent with FreshBooks now. So I am a heavy user of this service and I absolutely love it.

01:18:46   If you send any invoices, I mean, OK, we're approaching 2500. I just checked. So we're fast approaching 2500 invoices sent with FreshBooks. So trust me when I say that it is fantastic, because if it wasn't, I wouldn't have been using it for that amount of time.

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01:19:22   We have a hashtag #AskUpgradeQuestion. First one comes from Kurt.

01:19:29   That was fast. The lasers weren't ready yet. I know. They weren't ready. The lasers, you know, they're just going to have to have power back.

01:19:37   They're ready to go. With the release of AirPods Pro, is there a use case for the multi pod lifestyle?

01:19:47   I'm wondering about this. I now have like I have the second gen AirPods, right? I have them here. I was thinking I'll probably keep them by my bed.

01:19:56   So like in case I want to listen to music at night, I can't sleep or whatever. That's probably where I'm going to keep them. But I'm not planning on using these anytime that I would want to use AirPods now.

01:20:09   Like I want to use the AirPods Pro instead.

01:20:12   Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm sure somebody can make a case for it. But for me, I will probably sell those or give those to a friend or something because I don't think I need two sets of AirPods.

01:20:27   And the Pro ones are really nice, but I don't think I need two sets. So I'm sure somebody out there can find a use case for this, but I don't think I can.

01:20:35   Yeah, I mean, I'm just going to have them kind of like around the house.

01:20:39   Sure, sure. I mean, I can see the argument of like, just keep these in a bag so that or keep them at your desk or something like that.

01:20:46   So if you forget to bring your headphones in, then you've got a set. But you know, that's kind of extravagant. But you've already bought them.

01:20:53   And if you want the new ones too, then you're going to be you're going to end up with two. I'd say find a friend who wants them, but who's comfortable in reusing somebody's AirPods.

01:21:03   Otherwise, yeah, something like that. Keeping it in your bag, putting it at your desk, something like that.

01:21:08   Gary asks, "When do you think iPhones will switch to USB-C?"

01:21:14   Next year. How about that?

01:21:17   The 2020 iPhone?

01:21:19   Well, it'll be a, we'll maybe get a redesigned iPhone next year, maybe.

01:21:27   And it will have been two years since the iPad got USB-C. Even the AirPods now have a USB-C to Lightning charger in the box. I feel like the movement is happening there.

01:21:42   And so, I mean, I don't know anything and I'm just guessing, but I feel like we're close enough now that it could actually just happen now.

01:21:51   I think I could say that's true. I think it's definitely going to happen. I am, I mean, Lightning has been great and they've used it for a bunch of times, a bunch of time now.

01:22:01   But I do expect them to move to USB-C at some point, just because they have other products that have got USB-C. It would be so much easier if Apple just went all USB-C now.

01:22:10   Yeah, right? Like, it's still going to be a process of transition for everybody, but I have so many things, so many times I get a cable and I'm like, "Wait, which cable is this?" It's like, "Oh, this is the wrong one."

01:22:21   We just had this when we went to Oregon a few weeks ago where I brought a cable thinking it was a USB-C to Lightning. It turns out it was a USB-C to USB-C, so we had to pass around like one cable to charge all the phones.

01:22:34   It would be nice to be out of that, and it's going to take time, but until Apple changes, we can't even start that transition point.

01:22:43   Yeah, I would like it though. I would like it very much. It feels like it would be an easier transition than some of the others because I think a lot of people probably have these cables now, right?

01:22:54   Like USB-C cables, because USB-C is kind of becoming pervasive across all of technology. So you would expect it would be an easier transition than going from 30-pin to Lightning.

01:23:03   I would expect for a lot of people, because nobody had Lightning connectors before the iPhone adopted Lightning, but lots of people have USB-C already in their homes.

01:23:13   Scott asks, "Is there a way to apply the same edits to multiple photos in iOS 13's native photo app?" Jason?

01:23:22   Nope.

01:23:23   That's a shame.

01:23:24   You can do it on the Mac. You can actually take adjustments on the Mac and then copy the adjustments and then go to the next picture and paste adjustments. You can't do it on iOS.

01:23:33   There may be a third-party image editor where you could edit all those images or export all those images or import all those images and then do a batch process and then try to put them back in, but you may get duplicates at that point, and I don't know that for sure, but you can't do that in iOS to my knowledge.

01:23:49   It is a Mac feature, but not an iOS feature.

01:23:53   Josh asked, "Is it possible to use family sharing with two adults without everything being billed to one person or one family organizer? Ideally, we'd be able to share Apple TV Plus or Music Description, but still buy apps separately."

01:24:07   I don't think that's the case. I think that's going against the point of family sharing.

01:24:11   That's exactly right. Apple is granting you with family sharing this ability to share services and storage and all these things. You gain a benefit by being in a family because you can buy family membership to Apple TV or Apple Music.

01:24:28   They offer these things that covers all the family sharing, and you can share apps across all of the members of a family. So how does Apple make it that five friends just don't pool their resources and share all their apps and only ever have to buy an app once and only have to subscribe one time?

01:24:48   The answer is, Apple makes it that somebody's got to have the credit card for everybody and take credit card responsibility for all of those people, and that's the hedge against abusing the family system.

01:25:01   You've got to put your money down and vouch for the entire family group.

01:25:07   I just signed up for family sharing a couple of days ago.

01:25:11   I heard you talking about that on Connected last week, and I thought it couldn't be easier to do. You can take existing accounts and add them into the family, and then they get those features.

01:25:22   The shared iCloud space is the best because everybody in my family, their devices back up because I have two terabytes of iCloud space. It used to be I had that, plus I had to buy my wife enough space to back up and my kids. Now it's just all pooled, and that's way better.

01:25:39   It was really easy. It's a weird sign-up process. You opt in to just certain features, so you don't have to do all of it, and you send a separate invitation for each part. It's a very strange but interesting process to sign up, but we're now using it.

01:25:57   One of the reasons I brought this up is because my advice to Josh is what me and Adina are going to be doing, if there's something that she is going to pay for that she wants, which is more expensive, like a subscription or sign up for a year or whatever, we're just going to reconcile the transactions at the end of the month.

01:26:16   We mostly keep our own finances separate, but now it's going to a shared credit card that we have, and then we will reconcile that along with our other bills at the end of the month.

01:26:27   I was going to say, if that group of five friends is trustworthy enough to do something like come up with a sharing system where there's one credit card that is just for the shared stuff, and I'm sure people do this, right? And then at the end of the month, they reconcile, and it's like you got to pay for this and that, and they put it all together, and that's how they get around the family sharing.

01:26:46   I guess that there's still a degree of trust there, right? Because somebody has to pay, but that would be the way to do it.

01:26:53   Corey says, "We're listening to episode 200, that was our big podcasting extravaganza episode, and I have a few ideas for podcasts on various subjects. I'm trying to find interesting formats, but every idea I come up with is already being done and being done well. Any advice for making my way in podcasting when it is so crowded with ideas?"

01:27:13   That's the world, that's the internet. There are a lot of people out there, billions of people. They've got ideas, some of them are incredibly talented. I think in the end, I mean, there are people who are like, "Can you-- aha, I found this thing, and I don't think it's being covered, and I can do it."

01:27:27   But I think the truth is, you got to find something you're really passionate about, and you want to make great, and then you make it, and then you see what happens. There's no guarantee, but I can guarantee you that if it's something that you're not passionate about, but you work on it because you think nobody's ever had that idea before,

01:27:42   chances are-- I guarantee it will fail because you're not passionate about it, and I'll bet you that the reason that it doesn't exist is because nobody else is either. So you just got to take your chances and do something that you-- it's going to be worth doing because you love it and you're really into the concept, which we said in episode 200, right? I think it's that same thing.

01:28:02   Stop looking for the big break success that's going to earn you a ton of money and do something because you want to do it because you love the idea of it. It doesn't matter if everybody else is already doing it. Do it for fun.

01:28:15   You love it. You think it could be great, and if it ends up being successful, great, but I don't think you can start there.

01:28:22   And finally today, Kapila asks, "I think a great way for Apple to gain traction for their new video service would be for them to buy and revive old shows that have maybe been cut too soon by other services. Are there any shows that you'd really love Apple to revive?"

01:28:38   I've got a couple that come-- ironically, this question mentioned that Amazon saved the expanse, which is great. Amazon also-- they had a change in management and they killed a couple of shows. I don't know if this is going to help Apple gain traction or not, but I want Apple to bring back Patriot, which we mentioned earlier.

01:28:55   Sad Spies, and if they can't do that, they should get Steven Conrad, who created that, as well as Perpetual Grace Limited, which is a show nobody has seen because it's on Epix, which is a thing that nobody knows about.

01:29:10   Patriot is definitely on my list. They can bring that back or get Steve Conrad to do something else. Counterpart, which was on Starz and is maybe my favorite show of the last five years with J.K. Simmons. I love that show so much. I would love for it to come back in some form.

01:29:30   And if not that, then give Justin Marks, who did that show, he should get a deal and do another show. But Counterpart is so smart. I wish I could point to a streaming service where it's freely available, but it still hasn't cropped up on any streaming service. You have to buy the episodes on an all-cart plan, which is a lot harder sell, but I love that show so much.

01:29:52   And The Tick, also killed by Amazon, actually. I love that. The third go-round of The Tick, a humorous, satirical superhero story that I loved a lot. So there's three. Patriot, Counterpart, and The Tick.

01:30:06   If you would like to send in a suggestion or question for a future episode, just send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade and it may be included. I would like to thank FreshBooks, Direct Mail, and Eero for their support of this episode. If you want to find Jason's work online, go to sixcolors.com or the incomparable.com, which is also where you can find Total Party Kill.

01:30:29   And Jason is online is @jsnell. I am @imike. I am Y-K-E. Upgrade is a part of Relay FM. If you enjoy this show, but don't listen to any of our Relay FM shows, oh boy, is there a lot of content out there for you.

01:30:42   Go to relay.fm/shows and I guarantee you will find at least one other thing that interests you. Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade. Say goodbye, Jason Snell.

01:30:54   Stay tuned, everybody.

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