0:00:00[Intro music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 258. Today's show is brought to you by Linode, Pingdom, and Eero.
0:00:18My name is Myke Hurley, it is still the Summer of Fun.
0:00:21Summer of Fun!
0:00:22And I am joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.
0:00:25Hi, Myke Hurley. You know, so my wife does library programs for kids in the summer, and because school is about to start here,
0:00:33she's been talking about how basically her summer is over now, and she's moving into school time.
0:00:39And I am fascinated by this because I have, you know, if we go by the weather, I've got like a good two-plus months of summer weather left.
0:00:50So it's funny where like parts of our house, my wife and my son, their summer is over this week.
0:00:57For other parts of my house, me and my daughter, the summer stretches ever onward.
0:01:01And for Upgrade, I think it stretches on for a few more weeks.
0:01:05Yeah, so we got today's episode, which is fun in that there was no real news, so we've got some stuff for you.
0:01:12This is true Summer of Fun, where we're bringing together some little topics.
0:01:16Next week, I'm going to be in Memphis.
0:01:20Yes, we're going to do something hopefully with Stephen Hackett and Mac-related that is yet to be determined.
0:01:29But Stephen and I, I saw Stephen last week, we talked about the idea of doing something,
0:01:34bringing somebody on who's more, again, you get a bad rap.
0:01:41Okay, let's talk about this for a second. I was going to say, bringing someone on who cares about the Mac.
0:01:44That's not true. You care about the Mac. You care about the iPad.
0:01:47I do. There's this mentality about me.
0:01:49I have these moments too, where people will say, "Oh, you know these people who are iPad people like Federico."
0:01:55I'm like, "Fair." And Myke, and I'm like, "Hmm." And Jason, I'm like, "Eh."
0:02:01I'm very clear that I'm team both, but I think it's like, well, like you, I have Big iMac that I work at at my desk all day.
0:02:11And I got an iPad that I use mobile. I'm using both of them. But it is very easy to say, "Oh, you're one of those Mac people."
0:02:17Or, "You're one of those iPad people." It's like, "No, I'm both."
0:02:19We are iPad advocates. We are not iPad exclusives.
0:02:23Exactly. Oh, I like that. I like that. So anyway, but Stephen loves the Mac, going back at a level that I perhaps do and you perhaps don't.
0:02:33And so having you in Memphis give us a little barbecue flavor right there and then throw in Stephen Hackett and you're roasting up some barbecued Macs. I don't know.
0:02:45Roasting up some trash cans. And then the week after, it is very possible that I will be recording in person at the Snell Zone.
0:02:51Right here. With the lasers. Right here in the Snell Zone. It is, that's what we're hoping to do is an in-person, in my office episode of Upgrade.
0:03:01What would be more fun than that for the Summer of Fun?
0:03:05As horrifying as this sounds, the week after, which would be the first week of September, we are expecting to be drafting by then.
0:03:13Yeah, that would be the big fade out of the Summer of Fun, right? It would be the last hurrah the Summer of Fun would be drafting for the iPhone event, assuming the iPhone event is the week following.
0:03:24Yep, which I think it will be.
0:03:26I would imagine September 10th will be the iPhone event, right?
0:03:30If we're not drafting on the 26th, which I assume is unlikely, we'll be drafting the 9th. I can't imagine them releasing the iPhone in October and that will be the situation otherwise.
0:03:40So we will very likely be drafting, we have like two more Summer of Fun episodes and then it's iPhone draft.
0:03:47There's the Summer of Fun update that nobody asked for but we gave to you anyway.
0:03:52We have a #snowtalk question from James and James wants to know, "How often do you change the wallpaper on your iPhone, iPad, or Mac?"
0:04:02What about that one too?
0:04:03Infrequently is what I would say. I change them infrequently. I have been using the stock. It's actually really funny because people see it and they're like, "Where did you get that wallpaper on my iPhone?"
0:04:16And it's the six color Apple rainbows going across and that's a stock wallpaper in iOS 12. You can just pick it and it's with a black background is the one I've got.
0:04:29So that's on my iPhone. I've got a bunch of great photography from the Apollo missions that I use frequently.
0:04:38So like my lock screen on my iPhone is actually an astronaut. I think it's an Apollo 11 shot on the surface of the moon which looks really great with the OLED display especially because the blackness of space is super black on the OLED.
0:04:51And likewise on my iPad I've got the Earthrise picture from Apollo that's the nice blue earth over the moon which is great.
0:05:00And on my Mac, and I do change them but it's pretty rare, the Summer of Fun is my backdrop on my iPad by the way right now.
0:05:09The upgrade Summer of Fun image because it's still the Summer of Fun so I guess that'll be changing in a few weeks.
0:05:14And on my Mac I generally change it once every few months but it's not that often.
0:05:20Currently I'm actually using an app called downlink.com.
0:05:31A listener to many of our podcasts including Liftoff, Anthony Colangelo wrote it and it downloads satellite photos from the high resolution satellite that is over the western hemisphere.
0:05:47And so I have a shot of California, it's basically from California in the upper right corner, I mean California, the western US in the upper right corner and western Mexico as well.
0:05:57All the way down to the bottom left is Hawaii and so it's the Pacific Ocean and that updates every 10 minutes or something which is kind of cool.
0:06:05So I'm actually using that right now, kind of a live desktop. How about you?
0:06:09I very infrequently change my wallpapers. My lock screen is a photo of me and Nadina from our wedding on my iPhone.
0:06:19On my iPad I have it match up and I was using for a long time on both of my iPads, I was using different Mac wallpapers from Steven's 5K resolution wallpapers thing.
0:06:31Because I thought that was kind of cute and it was funny to me so I did that. But I changed the Summer of Fun wallpaper on everything.
0:06:40So my iPhone has currently got the Summer of Fun wallpaper on both of my iPads. But I didn't like the way it looked with dark mode.
0:06:47So then I updated on my iPads to a picture at the beach. So I just took a picture of the beach is what I now have on my iPads but my iPhone is still rocking the Summer of Fun wallpaper.
0:06:59I think it might look better on the iPadOS now because originally when you use dark mode up until the last beta it would automatically dim the wallpaper for you.
0:07:15But now it does it based on ambient light so I should try and see what it looks like now.
0:07:19It's like sometimes if you have enough light around you and using dark mode it doesn't do anything to your desktop wallpaper it will only do it if you are in a dark environment.
0:07:29So I might try that out again it might look better. But yeah that's what I'm doing.
0:07:32Alright if you would like to send in a question like James did to start an episode of Upgrade just send out a tweet with the hashtag #SnellTalk and we will be able to consider that for a future episode.
0:07:42Jason I believe that the term follow up is defined by corrections sometimes of things from previous shows as well as additional content.
0:07:52Would you like to provide a correction from a previous show?
0:07:55Yeah I should do this. Myke in the last episode you said that the Apple Card was introduced at World Wide Developer Conference in June but it was actually at the Spring Services event not at WWDC.
0:08:12I don't know how you could make such a horrible mistake.
0:08:15Thank you for your corrections voice.
0:08:17That is wacky listener wacky voice. Nobody mentioned this we noticed it after we released the episode. Literally you and I were like whoops.
0:08:26Well that we're going to be getting people correcting us all week and nobody I think everybody's at the beach so I'm correcting it for us.
0:08:34No my own theory about this I think that just like everybody else actually I've just found the definition of follow up follow up as a means of continuing a previously discussed topic or correcting things from a previous episode that is from follow ups creator John Siracusa.
0:08:49I wrote that down somewhere and now I've checked it so there we go we have the correct definition.
0:08:53So your theory Myke.
0:08:55My theory is that everyone was as confused as I was.
0:08:57As confused as we are yeah okay fair that's that's probably what it is but anyway it was at the Spring Services event.
0:09:02I remember because I heard it when I was editing the show where I was saying oh I have literally zero memory of them debuting at WWDC.
0:09:09Well that's why because they didn't.
0:09:11Smart man.
0:09:12Yep yep anyway so that's our self our self correction our cell phone for the for the episode is we got that wrong but I still don't have an apple card Myke so you know who knows I hear it's it's interesting.
0:09:24I mean actually what I hear is it's a credit card.
0:09:27Did you apply for it?
0:09:28I think I signed up for the for the like let me know.
0:09:31So you'll be able to apply at some point by the end of the month basically.
0:09:34I guess.
0:09:35If you are interested in what it looks like MKBHD made a video about it.
0:09:40I was surprised that I didn't see more videos like I read a bunch of articles like when we've been talking about this over the last couple of weeks or whatever.
0:09:46But I was surprised I hadn't seen any videos well if you want to see an unboxing of the apple card which I actually just do think looks really cool MKBHD has got a video for you.
0:09:57Myke the reason is that most youtubers are too young to be able to qualify for credit cards.
0:10:04Is this we turn this into to Jason's comedies that special.
0:10:08I was gonna say the reason is that most youtubers have such bad credit they can't qualify for an apple card but that seems meaner.
0:10:15I think that they get this if they're successful they definitely do not.
0:10:20They have good credit I'm very sure.
0:10:22It is August do you know what that means Jason?
0:10:25Summer of fun!
0:10:27Summer of membership. Relay FM membership time it's happening.
0:10:31The Relay FM membership is something that exists all year round.
0:10:35You get perks as a Relay FM member all 365 days of the year.
0:10:39But we talk about it in August and into September.
0:10:42It's the only time we talk about it every year.
0:10:44This year does mark five years of Relay FM so it's an extra special year for us this year.
0:10:48If you are a Relay FM member you will get access to a bunch of wonderful perks like a monthly behind the scenes newsletter and Relay FM host crossover podcast that you can only get as a Relay FM member.
0:11:00You get 5k desktop war papers of your favorite Relay FM shows.
0:11:04Membership start at just $5 a month and this time of year is extra special because this is when we are publishing our members specials.
0:11:12Throughout August and September you're gonna get a bunch of wonderful member specials with wild and wacky things.
0:11:17I am attempting to do really different stuff this year so trying to make stuff that's not as per my usual types of shows.
0:11:26I'll be talking about more of those specials. I published one already which is something that me and Brad the pen addict did last year and we're doing it again.
0:11:32We built a Lego set together but the difference is Brad has the pieces and I have the instructions.
0:11:37Alright.
0:11:39It took four and a half hours. It's there if you want it.
0:11:42It was a lot of fun. It's one of those things you just put on in the background and let us go throughout the day and you can hear me say things like 2x4 flat piece if you want to hear that.
0:11:51But don't let anybody else know about this Jason. Don't tell anyone else.
0:11:56Just between you and me.
0:11:57The crown jewel is the Cortex upgrade crossover special.
0:12:01Of course it is.
0:12:02The text adventures that we do every year. This is our fourth text adventure and it's gonna be coming out on Friday August 16th.
0:12:09That is this Friday.
0:12:10We're gonna have a trailer at the end of this week's episode.
0:12:13It is called Danger Town Beatdown.
0:12:17It is a cop. Like was it 80's cop?
0:12:22It's like an 80's cop movie.
0:12:24It has probably taken about 20 hours of editing.
0:12:28Which is you know why I call it the crown jewel because I have to put all that work into it so I'm gonna justify it somehow.
0:12:35I am so happy with the way that this one came out.
0:12:37I think it might be my favorite of all that we've done. If not it's like Tired with Six-
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0:15:40The awareness of this service is pretty high.
0:15:43I'm somebody who pays for Hulu without ads,
0:15:45and so I'm kind of curious if that will be bundled at a different tier,
0:15:48or whether there will be a bundle for that or not,
0:15:50because I'm not really interested in Hulu with ads.
0:15:52I'm interested in Hulu without.
0:15:54Or that maybe you can take the $12.99
0:15:56and give Hulu an extra dollar or two,
0:15:58and you get rid of the ads or whatever it is.
0:16:00Yeah, who knows what that is.
0:16:02So there's a bunch of things going on here.
0:16:04So the bundle, we knew it was happening,
0:16:06and Disney was so aggressive with Disney+
0:16:08that we knew that they would keep that aggression
0:16:10with any bundle price that they did.
0:16:12I think what's interesting here is they're putting their three services together.
0:16:16It may be that all the bundle that they offer
0:16:19is the three services together,
0:16:21rather than, you know, I get one and then I get another one.
0:16:25And it may also be that, in terms of the price,
0:16:28getting the bundle is better than getting two,
0:16:32and that's some interesting kind of mechanic there
0:16:34about how it increases the overall viewership of all three of those,
0:16:41even if you only really get it for two of them.
0:16:44And I think that that maybe has some long-term benefits to Disney.
0:16:48For those who don't know, because we only talk about it sporadically,
0:16:51and I've definitely heard people confuse this,
0:16:53ESPN+ is not the ESPN channel from cable.
0:16:57It's a different set of sports content.
0:17:02They have been making deals with sort of niche sporting leagues and things.
0:17:08There's some college football on there and college basketball on there.
0:17:12It's stuff that's not on ESPN.
0:17:14They have like original documentaries and dramas too, right?
0:17:18Yeah, they do have other content too.
0:17:21So it's definitely a sports thing,
0:17:23but it's not just sort of the ESPN channel that's on your cable.
0:17:27It's a different kind of thing.
0:17:28And then there's Hulu.
0:17:29So yeah, I think this is Disney pushing.
0:17:34It's consistent with the price they gave to Disney+,
0:17:37but it's extending that across ESPN+ and Hulu.
0:17:40And definitely the reactions I saw were mostly just this is a no-brainer.
0:17:45Like, well, sure, of course, for that price, which is by no mistake.
0:17:50It's like a Netflix price, except you get their three services
0:17:53instead of just Netflix, which is fascinating.
0:17:56We'll see how it works and how people react to it,
0:17:59but it's hard not to look at Disney's aggression here
0:18:02and expect them to sign up a lot of people.
0:18:05Then the real question is as they start to crank the price up,
0:18:09will they have convinced people that they can't live without it
0:18:13so that they stick with it?
0:18:15Disney also announced that they're going to be reimagining some Fox classics
0:18:18like Home Alone and Cheaper by the Dozen for Disney+.
0:18:21Yeah, this is an interesting story
0:18:23because what's really happening here is Disney looked at the longer-term planning
0:18:29from the Fox movie studio and basically put most of the content
0:18:35that was happening down the road and just kind of said,
0:18:39"No, we're not going to do that."
0:18:42So it's very much we took over.
0:18:44We don't like the movies that you're planning.
0:18:46We're going to reallocate a bunch of stuff.
0:18:48Obviously, the X-Men movies are going to Marvel Studios,
0:18:52and they actually picked out a few of these franchises from the Fox library
0:18:57that might have been part of the film slate.
0:19:00I don't know if these films were in possibility going to be made
0:19:06or remade at Fox, but what Disney did is somebody went through the Fox library
0:19:12and said, "I think these would make good Disney+ TV shows."
0:19:16So I don't know how Home Alone is a TV show.
0:19:19Is he always Home Alone?
0:19:21Or is it like one of these money heists or something
0:19:24where there's an eight-episode season,
0:19:26which is essentially the whole roller coaster of him being left home alone?
0:19:30I figured it might be a movie.
0:19:32I don't think they all have to be seasons.
0:19:35You're right. They could just be movies instead of series.
0:19:38I don't know. There's possibilities.
0:19:39It could be an anthology series of just different children being left home.
0:19:42Various kids left home alone. I like that idea.
0:19:45But you can see what Disney's doing here,
0:19:47which is Disney is methodically rifling through the intellectual property
0:19:51that it has and that it has acquired
0:19:54and finding stuff that it thinks might fly on Disney+.
0:19:58And then they will also reconceptualize what Fox as a studio is doing
0:20:04down the road now that they're in charge of it.
0:20:06But this is part of this larger consumption of Fox by Disney that's going on.
0:20:12I think it is interesting that they--
0:20:14Disney+ is such a priority that they had somebody basically rifling through
0:20:19the couch cushions at Fox and like, "Oh, home alone! Disney+! Take it away!"
0:20:24And that's what they're doing.
0:20:26We had an Ask Up Great question from Rajeev, which I'll ask now.
0:20:29Do you think Apple will have to discount Apple TV+ as a price
0:20:33or bundle it in with other services to remain competitive,
0:20:36especially in light of Disney's announcement?
0:20:39Well, keep in mind when they announced Apple TV+ at WWDC,
0:20:43no, they didn't. I was testing you.
0:20:47When they announced Apple TV+ at the Spring Services event--
0:20:51I didn't notice that, but you got me again.
0:20:53Of course you didn't. I'm sure a listener has already written in, though.
0:20:56Excuse me.
0:20:57No, it was Myke.
0:21:00When they announced Apple TV+ at the Services event,
0:21:05they didn't mention bundles and they didn't mention a price.
0:21:08And then Disney announced what their pricing was.
0:21:11So I think this is one of those things, as disappointing as it was
0:21:15for all of us to not have Apple talk about its pricing strategy,
0:21:19it was so smart for them not to do that,
0:21:21because they have had the whole summer to think about what their pricing is
0:21:26and what their--forgive the phrase--go-to-market strategy is with Apple TV+.
0:21:31They've had a lot of time to think about it.
0:21:33And I don't know what they're going to do, because part of me thinks,
0:21:36"It's Apple. They're going to price it way more than you want,"
0:21:38because that's the rule of Apple pricing, is that it gets priced way more than you want.
0:21:44Part of me thinks they want to be aggressive,
0:21:46because they want people to sign up for this thing
0:21:49and they want to increase their services revenue,
0:21:51but they also want to get a lot of people to try it.
0:21:53So my best guess is that it will be bundled with Apple Music
0:21:58and they'll be pretty aggressive about it.
0:22:01It wouldn't surprise me if they bundle it with another channel,
0:22:05if that makes sense.
0:22:06If they say, "Get Apple TV and one channel of your choice for this price,"
0:22:11and it could be HBO or Showtime or Stars or Epix or whatever they want to do,
0:22:16they could do something like that,
0:22:17and they'd obviously be kicking most of that money back to the partner,
0:22:20but they would be able to offer more content for the price,
0:22:25because Apple's only really got--as far as we know--only got these originals.
0:22:28They don't have a catalog of any kind, which is a tough sell.
0:22:32But if I had to guess, it would be that they will be aggressive
0:22:35in bundling it with Apple Music,
0:22:36that it will be the cost of an Apple Music subscription plus a few dollars.
0:22:40And the argument they'll make is,
0:22:43"This is your best deal for getting music and video together."
0:22:48But I don't know. It makes it hard.
0:22:50Rajiv, the short answer is, "Yeah, they are going to have to do some work here."
0:22:56They're going to have to really sell it now.
0:22:58Especially with no catalog, right?
0:23:00It's like literally we've got some originals.
0:23:03We've got no back catalog, we've got no movie catalog.
0:23:05As far as we know, we've never seen any reports of that.
0:23:08And that makes it a service with limited appeal.
0:23:12And they're going up against Disney, which has got their whole catalog
0:23:16and a bunch of originals with these huge franchises behind them.
0:23:20So I think, honestly, if this is at the iPhone event--
0:23:26and I'm not sure it will be, but it may be.
0:23:28That's the best place for it.
0:23:30All eyes are on the iPhone.
0:23:31So if you want to lift your service, you would put it in the iPhone event at the beginning
0:23:35because everybody watches that event.
0:23:37That's the most popular, most watched event Apple does the whole year.
0:23:40They're going to have to--
0:23:42it's going to be one of the more interesting things at the iPhone event
0:23:46is a price announcement for Apple TV+.
0:23:48And I know that seems really weird, but I think it's one of the great mysteries that we have.
0:23:54We have a decent idea of what the iPhone is going to be,
0:23:57but what Apple's doing with Apple TV+, we have no clue.
0:24:00And that's kind of exciting.
0:24:02I'm still going to stick on my prediction.
0:24:04I don't even think they're going to do it, but I think they should do it.
0:24:06If you give Apple money for Apple Music, Apple News+, Apple Arcade, you get Apple TV+.
0:24:13That's where I'm going to go with it.
0:24:15It comes as a sweetener for another service.
0:24:17If you're an Apple subscriber, you get access to their shows.
0:24:22Yep.
0:24:23All right. Could be.
0:24:25I'm looking of-- there is a teaser today of The Morning Show, which is the Jennifer Aniston, Reese Witherspoon, and Steve Carell drama show.
0:24:34It popped out today as a teaser, really, along with a Twitter account, which is The Morning Show.
0:24:41So that is now a thing that exists.
0:24:44You can watch the trailer. I'll put a link in the show notes.
0:24:47It sounds very dramatic.
0:24:49It was basically just audio and showing a walkthrough of a Morning Show set.
0:24:53I thought it was supposed to be funny. This is not a funny trailer.
0:24:57No, this is not a funny show. People think it's supposed to be a funny show. This is never a funny show.
0:25:02I've seen this set in a bunch of places. This was a drama. This is not a comedy.
0:25:06This was always pitched as a show that shows the stress of this job and of women in this type of environment.
0:25:18That was the conceit of the show as I remember it.
0:25:23But I've seen a lot that people are confused about where it's a comedy.
0:25:27I think it's not helped by the fact that people look at Steve Carell and they think, "Ah, it must be Joke Town."
0:25:33But nope.
0:25:34And Jennifer Aniston.
0:25:36Yeah, but I think that Aniston has done more.
0:25:40Sure. It does a good job of saying, "This is a dramatic show."
0:25:45And perhaps it's a dramedy, perhaps there's some humor in it as well, but that trailer, which is just images of the sets with audio, dialogue of audio playing in the background.
0:25:58But it's, yeah, we'll see. We're getting little clips now, right?
0:26:04The Morning Show and For All Mankind, we've gotten little bits and pieces, so we know a little bit more about them now.
0:26:10And that says again, coming in the fall, so your prediction about iPhone event.
0:26:14That's the time they're going to show it, right? It's coming in the fall.
0:26:17And lastly, Netflix has signed an overall deal with David Benioff and DB Weiss, who are responsible for Game of Thrones on HBO.
0:26:26This was said to be like a huge bidding war amongst all of the major players with Disney, Netflix and Amazon fighting the hardest.
0:26:34It's a multi-year agreement to direct TV shows and movies said to be worth $200 million.
0:26:40And their pair will still be working on their Star Wars movies, though.
0:26:44Yeah, this is like the J.J. Abrams thing. There's a real question about how focused these guys are going to be since they've got the Star Wars deal.
0:26:53But they, you know, who knows? They've got a movie for 2022 that's a Star Wars movie and they're supposedly writing and producing more after that with them.
0:27:05And this is a deal that, you know, is before this, precedes this. So I don't know.
0:27:10Are they going to be distracted like J.J. Abrams was for his overall deal?
0:27:15But the fact is that Netflix, Amazon and Disney were all bidding for these guys because of Game of Thrones and Netflix decided they were going to put up the money.
0:27:30So, yeah.
0:27:31So they got them.
0:27:32Yep.
0:27:33There is this strange, because we were talking about this with J.J., right? Like this idea that like if I, if somebody's done something once, that they can definitely do it again.
0:27:42And that's not always the case, right? I would also say J.J. Abrams is a, I think, a much better person to be, to make a deal with than Benioff and Weiss because Benioff and Weiss's track record is essentially they ran this show that became a huge hit.
0:27:56So they had a hit. Do we have any real evidence that they can do it again? I don't think we do.
0:28:02So it's a bigger gamble. J.J. Abrams has produced, he's produced a bunch of movies and TV shows that have been successful.
0:28:09He has written a bunch of movies and TV shows that have been successful. He's directed a bunch of movies and TV shows that have been successful, right?
0:28:15So he's a, he's a writer, director, producer with a big track record and his production company.
0:28:20Household name that draws attention.
0:28:22And his production company expands even beyond that, right? Like the whole thing.
0:28:26And, you know, not everybody loves J.J. Abrams's stuff, but I'd say he's a pretty good bet because he's shown that he's not just somebody with like one talent, but that he's got a bunch of talented people around him.
0:28:37And he and his production company have clearly got a sense for how to develop shows and develop movies.
0:28:43And Benioff and Weiss, and I liked Game of Thrones a lot, but I don't see a track record there. So this is a real risk, but I think in today's overheated content market, the big players who have maybe some money to burn are willing to take that gamble because what if they can do another Game of Thrones or two or three, then it would be worth it.
0:29:10I don't think they can, honestly. I don't think these guys are like going to go away and never do anything good anymore, but I'm not sure that the fact that Game of Thrones was a success.
0:29:23It means that everything they do from now on is going to be Game of Thrones. And that's sort of how this deal is priced. So, you know, Netflix has got the money. So there it is.
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0:31:11So we're getting pretty close. We were talking at the start of the show that we reckon we're about three weeks away from an iPhone announcement which typically would say that we're probably about four weeks away from iOS being released.
0:31:26So about a month away. And I wanted to kind of check in with us both. I'm running iPadOS only. I'm not running iOS on my iPhone yet.
0:31:36And I'm not running the Mac beta or the watch beta or anything like that. Are you running everything?
0:31:42No.
0:31:44Okay, what have you got going on right now?
0:31:46So I've got Catalina running in a partition.
0:31:50We know about that one. That one we know because of security.
0:31:54But yes, but it's on one disk and I've got an internal and an external and I'm booted right now into Mojave on the external.
0:32:02And then my iPad is running the beta. My iPhone is not, although I do have a loner iPhone that is running the beta, but it's not one I use.
0:32:11And my Apple Watch remains untouched by betas because I like my Apple Watch and I like to use it.
0:32:17So iPadOS is probably the beta you're using the most?
0:32:21For sure.
0:32:22Yeah, because that's on a device which you use all the time and it can't be dual booted like the Mac, right?
0:32:28Right.
0:32:29So what are you thinking about the beta cycle right now from a reliability standpoint?
0:32:38You know, I've heard people say that it's terrible and I've heard people say that it's fine.
0:32:45Like I've been seeing all these Steve Shrout and Smith tweets that are like, "Oh, you know, it's fine."
0:32:49It's no worse than other ones at this point.
0:32:52And I don't agree with either. I'm in the middle. Big surprise.
0:32:58I think I'm in the middle too.
0:32:59I don't have an extreme opinion here.
0:33:02iOS, iPadOS 13 beta feels like a beta.
0:33:09And the fact that it's now August and features keep kind of like ducking out and then coming back in various betas.
0:33:17And like there are bugs.
0:33:20The Safari stuff, which is super ambitious that they're doing where they're doing the desktop class browsing.
0:33:25There's a lot happening in Safari and how web pages are rendered in iPadOS.
0:33:30And it's still not right. Like it still doesn't work right.
0:33:33It's getting better though. It is getting better but it's still not complete.
0:33:37And I genuinely think this will not be something that's complete in 13.0.
0:33:42Like this is going to take some time.
0:33:44Like I have a whole lot -- if you load a page in holding an iPad Pro horizontally
0:33:50and you load a page that's a responsive design web page, it loads half the width of the page in a mobile view.
0:33:58And then you have to rotate and then unrotate and then it looks fine.
0:34:02And it's like that's been there for like a month at least.
0:34:05And that seems like a pretty fundamental bug that has not yet been addressed.
0:34:10So there's stuff like that. The springboard crashes.
0:34:13Springboard crashes are quite frequent.
0:34:15All the time, right?
0:34:16You're just like, "Oh no, everything goes black and the thing spins and you think, "No, this is a disaster."
0:34:20And then it just comes back to the lock screen and you unlock it and it's fine.
0:34:23But that happens a lot.
0:34:25And that all said, I put the beta on it.
0:34:28I use my iPad all the time, including to get work done, not just like looking at emails and Twitter and stuff.
0:34:35And I have been able to do that.
0:34:37I have not at any point this summer said, "I got to revert this iPad" or "I've got to get my old iPad out."
0:34:45I have had no problems with any third-party apps at all.
0:34:50They all work fine.
0:34:51All of the integrations to the system are totally fine.
0:34:54Things that they're working on like files or whatever, it's not breaking anything.
0:34:57All of that stuff is rock solid.
0:34:59My biggest problem is around basic stuff with the system.
0:35:05Anything to do with multitasking can be super janky.
0:35:08I get UI lockups all the time.
0:35:11I'm trying to use slide over and it will just stop.
0:35:15I can't slide it back over anymore.
0:35:17It just freezes.
0:35:18There's nothing I can do to get the window to go away.
0:35:20Keyboard shortcuts, anything to do with command tabbing, going home, all of those.
0:35:26They just stop working randomly and only a reboot will fix it.
0:35:29And this isn't a bug as such, but in how I'm feeling, I cannot get my head around these new text editing gestures.
0:35:36I keep looking at Apple's marketing pages and trying to do what they say I can do, and I cannot get it to work.
0:35:43To me, it feels like it's just the same as it always was.
0:35:47But I can page now.
0:35:48You have to put your finger down and hold it for too long and then drag.
0:35:51Because if you do it short, it's a challenge, right?
0:35:54Because putting a finger down and then immediately moving it is a drag, basically.
0:35:59And so you have to pause for a moment.
0:36:01And the timing there, if you pause for too long, then it feels like you're basically just dropping the little loop cursor like you used to.
0:36:10And the multitasking stuff, like trying to open split-screen windows from any app that's on the lock screen, just does not work.
0:36:17It just sends them all into the jiggle mode, which doesn't make any sense, considering there's that new rearrange windows shortcut.
0:36:23I cannot take an app from my home screen and put it into multitasking without accidentally creating a folder.
0:36:30But that still feels like something that's going to be fixed, though.
0:36:33Sure. And some of this stuff, like a lot of this I could chalk up to performance issues that, you know what?
0:36:39Until you're very late in a beta process, I feel like you just got to let some of the performance stuff go.
0:36:44And that's what I've been doing, is just shrugging it off and saying, you know, it's not -- people always ask when I do beta stuff, what's the speed like?
0:36:53It's like, don't ask me about speed in a beta.
0:36:56Like, it's not done.
0:36:59Sometimes the speed is the last thing that they do.
0:37:03Yeah, it's the polish and the bend.
0:37:04Is they got to lock all this stuff down, and there's no point in locking it down while it's still in flux, so they wait until the end.
0:37:09And I'm not really judging here.
0:37:11Bugs happen in betas, and it's fine. That's why betas exist.
0:37:15I will say that it is -- this is a combination thing, again.
0:37:21It's more usable than I thought it would be, but also more buggy than I expected it would be.
0:37:29Like, it is -- especially now that it is coming up mid-August, it all feels a little bit shakier.
0:37:37And as an intrepid beta tester, I'm okay with the bugs, and I'm glad that I can still use it to get my work done.
0:37:43And so it's like a good mix for me.
0:37:45It's a little frustrating, but I roll with it.
0:37:48I can't imagine something like this shipping to customers, because it is -- by the standards of shipping software, it is a complete mess.
0:37:57But fortunately, it's not shipping yet.
0:37:58Still, if they're shipping it in a month or a month and a half, there's a lot of cleanup to be done here.
0:38:05So let's actually talk about that.
0:38:09So features are being pulled out.
0:38:10Shortcuts automation was pulled out, but said it was coming back.
0:38:13iCloud share folders has been pulled out.
0:38:16It seems like Apple actually reverted a bunch of iCloud kind of system changes, like from '13 to '12, which is kind of interesting,
0:38:23like from the system that they were changing for iOS 13.
0:38:25They seemed to roll it back.
0:38:26So there's some stuff that's coming in and out.
0:38:28I don't know if that is because they don't want to stop the beta process when something is broken,
0:38:35so they just take it out temporarily and keep going.
0:38:39And it's like, "You guys are working on it.
0:38:40We're going to take it out in the meantime, and we'll put it back in."
0:38:43Some of this stuff is probably that, but I think you also have to keep in mind that this will probably happen all the way up to the final,
0:38:52where we've seen it before, and it will happen again.
0:38:54I think it's maybe a healthy thing, where the final will ship, and a feature that they announced as being an iOS 13 won't be there,
0:39:01and they'll say, "That's coming later," because they couldn't get it to work right.
0:39:06And that may be the case with some of these features that are being pulled out.
0:39:10But I think it's a good sign.
0:39:13I think it shows some discipline, saying, "This isn't good enough right now, so we're going to just pull it out
0:39:17so that the train can keep moving ahead, and we'll put it back later when we're more confident in it."
0:39:22But there is growing concern about this release from people that pay attention.
0:39:28I think Federico has been talking and tweeting about this.
0:39:31I heard John Gruber talking about it on the talk show, about whether Apple are actually going to be able to make the usual dates.
0:39:38There seems to be a concern that this feels worse in some ways, or in some fundamental ways,
0:39:45and it doesn't seem to be getting better at the rate that a lot of observers think that it should be.
0:39:50So there's a question about, would they delay?
0:39:53I wanted to run through some scenarios with you, Jason, and see what you think is the most likely to occur.
0:39:59If they delay iOS, they in theory then need to delay iPadOS, WatchOS, and macOS.
0:40:07There are varying issues across all the platforms, but you would assume if they delay iOS, they kind of have to delay the others,
0:40:13because there tend to be things that all tie in together, and iOS should always come first.
0:40:18Like, WatchOS you cannot touch, because you actually can't run them out of sync anyway on different versions.
0:40:24iPadOS shouldn't ship if iOS doesn't ship, because in theory it also shouldn't be ready.
0:40:29And I can't ever really imagine macOS going before iOS, because it always goes later.
0:40:34And Catalina doesn't feel particularly more stable and ready to ship than iOS does at this point.
0:40:40I would say macOS could ship much later.
0:40:43And it usually does. It usually comes in October.
0:40:45Yeah, the problem with all of this is that there are features that Apple does that go across all of its platforms that are rolled into a particular version.
0:40:52And so Apple would prefer to offer updates to everything more or less simultaneously,
0:40:57because if you roll out iOS but there's no new WatchOS, then has iOS been built to assume that it can run with the previous version of WatchOS and iPadOS?
0:41:07Like, you're now asking people to live in a world where one of their devices is upgraded but the others aren't,
0:41:13and that leads to some issues. It's doable, but Apple would prefer to, like, have everybody move in lockstep,
0:41:22and they can say, "Well, to get this feature, upgrade all your devices, and then all your devices get this feature."
0:41:26Think about something like iCloud, where they have built in, and I think it's notable,
0:41:32like, if you're running Catalina or iOS 13 and you're using Reminders, you have the option to upgrade to the new thing, but you cannot.
0:41:41And it sort of syncs with the old version, because once you move over, you're in the kind of, like, the new world now.
0:41:48And they would prefer to avoid that.
0:41:51I do feel like MacOS could get pushed back fairly easily and often does, and really, if new iPads are coming, they're coming in October,
0:42:00you could probably push that back too, but again, Apple would prefer if you -- they'd prefer to launch most of this stuff, especially the iOS-based stuff, simultaneously.
0:42:11TVOS too.
0:42:12Yeah, I thought of that just a moment ago. I was like, "Is it worth --?" Yes, it's worth including.
0:42:17So, okay, so let's imagine they delay iOS. Do they delay the iPhone?
0:42:22I don't think they can. Keep in mind, we're about 40 days out from when the iPhone will probably ship, the new iPhone models.
0:42:29So it's coming -- it's coming fast. And I don't know. Like, they have some contingencies here.
0:42:38I think if I were Apple, I would always have some contingency plans for shipping the iPhone, right?
0:42:46I think -- personally, I think that you should always have a plan to ship the iPhone.
0:42:51Considering how important it is to them, right? Like, even like a week's delay, there should be every single year a plan to release it with iOS.
0:43:00Yes, yes. So that's what I'm saying is if I were Apple, I would have a contingency plan to release the iPhone with a build of iOS 12 in this case.
0:43:15Rather than making iOS 13 a, you know, a reason why -- like a limitation on shipping iPhone.
0:43:26Like, I don't think you can do that. I don't think you can say, "Oh, what happens if we have a big iOS 13 problem and it slips? Does the iPhone slip?"
0:43:33And the answer -- it has to be the iPhone does not slip.
0:43:36So either you have a contingency plan where you ship a special version of iOS 13 that is just on these new iPhones, which seems not ideal, or you make sure that the iPhone can run a special build of iOS 12.
0:43:53Yeah, because that special build would have to enable any hardware features that get added to the phone, right? Like a triple camera.
0:43:59Apple has shipped -- and this is something that I think people miss sometimes -- Apple has shipped special OS builds to enable new hardware for years, for decades, really.
0:44:10Even just looking at the Verizon iPhone is an example of that.
0:44:13Sure. Well, it happens all the time. It happens that Macs ship out of sync with OS release, and they ship with a special build that enables special hardware, and then the next full-on macOS update then brings everybody up to the same version.
0:44:28But if you've ever had that situation where you've tried to install software on an old Mac and you're like, "Well, wait a second. This page on the internet says that it can run this version of macOS," and you try to boot off of the disk, and it says, "I can't boot off of this," and it turns out, well, it was released mid-cycle with a special build, and if you don't have that build or later, you can't boot off of that on that hardware.
0:44:51So they do that all the time. So I think my guess is you always keep around the possibility of enabling those hardware features that are essential in iOS 12, and that you can ship a late -- like the last version of iOS 12 on those phones just to get them out the door in case something bad has happened with iOS 13 that requires that update to come out a few weeks later.
0:45:18And then if it doesn't happen, then you ship it with iOS 13, and everybody's happy.
0:45:23Because going back to last week's conversation, if Apple don't release their iPhone at the planned time, they will miss their guidance for the quarter, which is something they cannot allow to happen.
0:45:35So the iPhone is everything about how they're building them, ramping up the factories. Like, they don't want to keep things in their channel. They want to get them out, and they want to get them sold. There's going to be a huge pent-up demand for them.
0:45:49They don't want to delay their announcement event. It's already all timed. For not just when they announce, but when they're storing them already at the factory, presumably, and then they ship them, and the whole thing is timed, it's orchestrated.
0:46:05Can you even imagine what the amount of money per minute would be that they would be losing? No one's ever going to know that, right? But what is the amount of money per minute that is lost by an iPhone delay?
0:46:19I bet it is like a hair-raising amount of money.
0:46:23Oh, absolutely.
0:46:25Because having these production lines just sitting there, all of this stuff just stopping, or piling up, or whatever it is, it's just a wild thing to think about.
0:46:34No, so I think it's very much in Apple's—and I don't know the facts here, but I can't see how Apple doesn't have a contingency plan to either have a—I mean, really, to have a version of iOS 12 that they can put on it.
0:46:49Yeah, I think that there has to be some option. That would be my expectation.
0:46:53Has to be.
0:46:54I am starting to, like—I believe that it will be either some weird version of 13, but that seems less likely, or that if they—you know, I'm thinking maybe it will ship with 12 and 13 comes a little later. That would be super interesting.
0:47:08I mean, the other option is that they find issues with parts of 13 that they can do what we were just talking about, which is they drop out some features.
0:47:14And Apple has not been shy about that, about saying, you know, "Here are the features of iOS 13," and they put little asterisks on their website that say, "This is coming later this fall."
0:47:24And they just leave it at that, coming by the end of the year, coming later this fall.
0:47:28And I wrote a column a couple years ago where I encouraged Apple to approach iOS 13 or approach any of these milestone releases as a cycle.
0:47:38And you can announce the features. Doesn't mean they all have to be there on day one. Maybe some of those features come a couple months later.
0:47:43That's okay. I would rather the update be solid and go from there.
0:47:49So I think that would be the ideal thing, would be to have a version of iOS 13 and pull out some of this stuff that isn't working quite right.
0:47:54But I can understand that some of that stuff maybe just, you know, can't be pulled out.
0:48:00And, you know, we can't go back to the old version of reminders, and the reminder sync isn't working. Then what do we do?
0:48:06And the answer is just have a version of good old iOS 12 warmed up and put it on the phones, and maybe they initially put that on all the phones.
0:48:17Maybe that's what's loaded on the phones right now, is that version of iOS 12.
0:48:21And then if they can do an update to 13 version that they like, they'll do that.
0:48:26Otherwise, they'll ship them, and whenever 13 ships, those people with those phones will get the note saying, "Here's a new version of iOS for you to install."
0:48:35And if you don't have them, then you install it, and it's not the end of the world.
0:48:38Like, it is not the end of the world to have new iPhones shipped with iOS 12, as long as there isn't a major feature that's not supported.
0:48:46Like, we have three cameras, but you can only use two of them for the next two weeks is not great. They can't do that.
0:48:51I'll take a break, and then I want to just lighten all this up by giving a list of things that I love in iPadOS.
0:48:58Just, you know, share the love, right? Because I feel like there's a lot of conversation about the bad side, but it's not all bad.
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0:50:47because I've got the Eero base station and then I've got some Eero beacons in various places. And it all just works. It's easy.
0:50:56So as I say, you can go and get your Eero. You can order it right now, and you will have it as soon as tomorrow,
0:51:03because they're giving listeners of this show free overnight shipping.
0:51:06That's Eero.com/ahoy and the code "ahoy" at checkout.
0:51:11You need to use that URL and code to get your hands on this offer. That's Eero.com/ahoy and the code "ahoy" for free overnight shipping.
0:51:18Our thanks to Eero for their support of this show and all of Relay FM.
0:51:22So, I have been using iPadOS for the last few weeks, and I just wanted to talk about some of my favorite things.
0:51:30I think that the added flexibility that iPadOS gives in general is really nice.
0:51:35I think that they've done a great job of bringing to the front a lot more stuff that is great about the iPad,
0:51:44and making the operating system sing in those areas. I love widgets on the home screen.
0:51:49I use my widgets way more now, because it's so much easier to get to that information.
0:51:54All I have to do is just press the key on my bridge keyboard to go home, or I just swipe up, and they're right there.
0:52:01I don't have to swipe down, then swipe across. Oh, I accidentally swiped on a notification.
0:52:06I just do it like it used to be. None of that happens anymore.
0:52:09These widgets are right there. They added in a recent beta that you can just pin as many as you want.
0:52:14I have a bunch there. I have my calendar, shortcuts, calzones, and time-ary, my time tracking.
0:52:21They're right there, wherever I need them, and it's made it feel like a much more useful part of the operating system in general
0:52:27to have that information right at my fingertips.
0:52:31Yeah, I agree. I love the widgets on the home screen. I've got the weather. I've got my calendar.
0:52:36It's really nice to have my home screen when I'm just switching between apps,
0:52:41and I end up back at the home screen saying, "In an hour, you have this event."
0:52:47I'm like, "Oh, yeah, right. That's the next step for me." It's very convenient.
0:52:50Shortcuts there is really great, because I have some shortcuts that can just run straight from the widget. Super nice.
0:52:56Yeah, exactly. Shortcuts is wonderful to have there, too.
0:53:00I really like the new long-press pop-over previews.
0:53:04Say I have a link to something in Notes, like a tweet or something.
0:53:10If I long-press it to be able to bring up the contextual menu to copy it,
0:53:15it also brings up a tiny, tiny web browser, which is super useful, because if I have--
0:53:19Say I do this a lot with the shows. I'll save tweets to my Apple Notes,
0:53:24and then I'll take a look at them to bring them into the Google Doc or to remind me of a piece of information.
0:53:29I can now very easily preview all of these, just as I would normally try and copy it,
0:53:34which is just much nicer for the iPad, because it didn't have peak and pop.
0:53:37Now I'll just long-press on it. It pops up, shows me a little preview of what the tweet is exactly,
0:53:42and then I can either copy it or delete it and move on. I love that.
0:53:46It's a great feature to add to the iPad.
0:53:48I'll be sad if 3D Touch does go away on the iPhone, like the way that they're doing it now,
0:53:53and if it gets a bit weird, but I will take that if it means this continued push on the iPad,
0:53:59because I'm happy to have this kind of functionality there now, this long-press functionality.
0:54:04I like windowing with the apps that can use it.
0:54:08I like being able to set up pairs of applications together in kind of what I consider to be little stand-alone things,
0:54:15and I am really intrigued to see what this is going to look like when all of the apps that I use start using it.
0:54:21I've seen something in some video shared by Greg, the developer of Drafts,
0:54:29where he seems to have made a button that can open a window, and I think that that's really interesting.
0:54:35I wonder if developers are going to do that and if it's something that can ship.
0:54:39It looks like he has a button in his UI that can just open another window with the note that you're looking at,
0:54:44or like a preview, so that looks really cool. I'm intrigued to see what that sort of stuff looks like.
0:54:48Safari is excellent on iPadOS. As you said, there are still some parts of it that are a bit wonky in places,
0:54:56but overall, it's amazing. I'm so happy with it. I actually feel like I'm surfing the real web now,
0:55:04and I feel like now I did not realize how much stuff I was not seeing before.
0:55:11I feel like being able to have a full desktop browser on my iPad has shown me something that I wasn't completely aware of,
0:55:18which is super interesting to see that. So I'm really happy to have that,
0:55:23and I've already been able to make use of it in a bunch of places, like stuff like Twitch.
0:55:27I always have problems trying to get the Twitch dashboard to load, and now I can get all of that to load very easily,
0:55:31so that's really amazing. The new pencil stuff in Notes works great. It is incredibly responsive.
0:55:37I like the tools, but the latency, I don't know how they're doing it, but it feels absolutely fantastic.
0:55:43Again, it's one of those things where I always felt like the latency was great before,
0:55:47but now it's like, oh, this feels almost uncanny valley. It's so close to real, which is brilliant. I love it.
0:55:55Screenshots, the screenshot UI I really like. I like the new editing tools in Photos as well.
0:56:00I feel like they kind of go together. What do you think about the editing tools in Photos,
0:56:03like the way the UI is set out and stuff? I like it. It's still a little bit frustrating that it doesn't have all the features
0:56:11that are on the Mac version, but there are way more features there now. There's something like 15 different controls
0:56:17you've got to edit photos. I'm frustrated that Photos still doesn't have a retouch tool on iOS.
0:56:24It's maddening that they don't, because it's in the Mac version, and there are other Mac apps that have a healing tool,
0:56:32a retouch tool. Perfect for the Apple Pencil, something like that. Yeah, Pixelmator has it.
0:56:38You can open your Photos file in Pixelmator Photos and then retouch the photo and then put it back in Photos,
0:56:46which is nice, but why is that feature not in Photos? But it's way better than it has been. It keeps evolving.
0:56:52The iOS version keeps getting more and more capable. There are weird lapses where it doesn't have something
0:57:00that the Mac version has that it probably should have. I love the tiny swipe keyboard.
0:57:06It's interesting. I have not used that even a little bit on my--I mean, I imagine I'll swipe on the iPhone,
0:57:12but on the iPad, the tiny swipe keyboard has not been a thing that I've even spent any time on.
0:57:17I'll give you a use case for it that I enjoy. This is when I realized I really liked it.
0:57:21If you have two applications open, one is an application where text is being entered,
0:57:27the other is where content is being consumed, you can detach the keyboard and have it in small mode
0:57:35and drag it off to the one-quarter application or whatever, and the software keyboard's not taking up
0:57:42half of the screen anymore. See what I mean?
0:57:44Yeah, I like that. I like that. I'm not sure how I--ergonomically whether I like using that or not,
0:57:51but it's a nice idea.
0:57:53I use swipe keyboards and Gboard on my iPhone all the time anyway, so I'm really used to that kind of method of text input.
0:58:00It's just not on my iPad.
0:58:02Yeah, so I would use it--as I have, I would hold my iPad and then use my index finger to do the swiping.
0:58:09Yeah, so I really like that. Column view in Files is really great. I am so happy to have that.
0:58:16That is just like, thank you. Yes, I need that.
0:58:19And Files has a bunch of little improvements in places, like the ability to rename a file when you're saving it
0:58:24from the popover in places and the ability to create new folders. All of that stuff's really good.
0:58:32They had a feature which was added, which has been removed, but hopefully will come back,
0:58:36where you can pin a folder or a file, which means it will always be downloaded,
0:58:41and I hope that that makes its way back because that's just a great feature.
0:58:45Dark mode. I really like dark mode. I think the operating system looks great in dark mode.
0:58:49I was just using it last night because I like how I did not want--we were watching a movie
0:58:56and I was looking some things up on the internet and it was super bright, and it's like, no, dark mode is better,
0:59:01except for the apps that don't support it yet, but hopefully they will.
0:59:05And yeah, that was--it's a good feature. You mentioned Files.
0:59:10Files is much more stable now as the beta's been going along. Files has been getting a lot better, which is great.
0:59:16I have had way less of these problems that I have, even with third-party file providers of files not downloading.
0:59:23It's not been happening to me, where it was happening every single day on iOS 12.
0:59:28So I don't know what exactly they've done to fix that, or maybe I just had something going on in my Files app
0:59:34that needed to be kicked, but it's working way better. I'm really happy with that.
0:59:38Yeah, yeah, we're at the point now where it's like, yes, I can insert USB drives, I can see my local server and files.
0:59:46The external file provider apps aren't 100%, but they haven't been updated for iOS 13 yet,
0:59:53so I assume that most of them will get there.
0:59:56But that makes the whole iPad experience a little more reliable when you know you have reliable access to your files
1:00:02and you can actually--because even before, there were lots of times where Files would get stalled, where you'd think,
1:00:08"Wait a second, it's not showing me the current right thing here?"
1:00:13And that's all starting to go away, which is great. It's much more reliable.
1:00:17Because Files' functionality was already pretty good, but its reliability was poor,
1:00:20and it feels like it's not only more functional, but more reliable now.
1:00:26So I want to talk to you now about ARM laptops.
1:00:30This is the thing that keeps coming up, but there's a specific reason.
1:00:34You posted a tweet the other day talking about--the tweet says, "This is why the ARM MacBook is inevitable."
1:00:41And what you were talking about is the Galaxy Book S, which should really be a product that not many people care about,
1:00:49because it's just like a Samsung-made, ultralight Windows laptop.
1:00:56You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I just don't feel like a lot of people that use PCs
1:01:04have the kind of loyalty to their laptop maker in the way that Apple customers do.
1:01:09I can imagine people moving from device maker to device maker more frequently.
1:01:14So the idea of somebody being excited about the Galaxy Book S just seems like a strange one for me,
1:01:19except until you hear a little bit about what the device has going on.
1:01:24So this was at their Unpacked event where they showed off the new Note 10, which I think looks really cool,
1:01:30but that's maybe a conversation for another day.
1:01:32So this device is using a Qualcomm-made ARM chip.
1:01:36It has integrated LTE, because Qualcomm's making it.
1:01:39It is a fanless product, but the thing that is super interesting, which is bonkers to consider,
1:01:45it gets 23 hours of battery life.
1:01:48Yeah.
1:01:49That is unbelievable.
1:01:50Pretty good, huh?
1:01:51That is absolutely unbelievable.
1:01:53You have taken that to a product where you would feel like your battery never ran out.
1:01:5823 hours of continuous use is not a thing you can do in a day.
1:02:02So it's not really.
1:02:04You could try, but you've got other things going on in your life at that point.
1:02:08If these numbers are accurate, Samsung are in the business of being accurate as they can.
1:02:15They said they tested it on continuous video playback, 23 hours.
1:02:19I mean, that is unbelievable, right?
1:02:23A laptop with that level of battery life?
1:02:27Yeah, that's the dream.
1:02:30My reaction was definitely like, "Here's how ARM laptops look.
1:02:35Here's what Apple could do.
1:02:36Would Apple do it, or would they use all that power savings to reduce the battery even more?"
1:02:41It's Apple. Who knows?
1:02:42But this is a tiny laptop, right?
1:02:45It is.
1:02:46This is an ultra-thin, thinner than a MacBook Pro laptop.
1:02:51It's tiny.
1:02:53So, yeah, they could make it smaller, but they could make it smaller and offer a 20-hour battery or whatever, right?
1:02:59And people would still lose their minds.
1:03:0213 inch as well.
1:03:05I mean, it's kind of wild, right?
1:03:07There's always a question of how powerful an ARM laptop can be.
1:03:12You get all these benefits, but what are you losing?
1:03:15And I remember, you know, I don't know what Qualcomm chips are like.
1:03:18I don't know what their power is like, but Apple can make very good chips, right?
1:03:23Like the iPad Pro on Geekbench scores, for what it's worth, they're comparable to a 2018 15-inch MacBook Pro.
1:03:30I know that's not everything, but that's a darn good start, right?
1:03:35Yeah, I think I can assume that any Apple-designed processor running in a Mac is going to be as powerful or more powerful than the iPad Pro is, right?
1:03:48And the iPad Pro is already more powerful than most PC laptops.
1:03:53And again, you know, it is also going to be low power consumption.
1:03:58Apple has the bank cores so that they can crank up power consumption when they need speed and they can crank it right back down when they have to, to the efficiency cores in the processor.
1:04:08So they've done all this work.
1:04:10I think the real question is just, I mean, there's, what are they going to prioritize?
1:04:15Battery life or lightness?
1:04:18They have room for both, to make both significantly better.
1:04:22I think what they want to say is that it's an all-day battery, which is, you know, 10 hours is not an all-day battery. It's an all, like, work shift battery, but that's not quite the same.
1:04:30So if you could come out and say it's 18-hour battery life, 16-hour battery life, it wouldn't even need to be 23-hour battery life.
1:04:37You don't need 23, really. It's great to have it, but you don't need that.
1:04:42Right.
1:04:43Yeah, I think that this is very exciting as a thing that exists, right?
1:04:49Yeah, and there are questions. So I tweeted out this thing saying this is why Apple's going to make a MacBook.
1:04:54And I guess people who have not been paying attention to this discussion then jump in on Twitter and say, "Well, but what about, but what about?"
1:05:00And it's my usual complaint about people who think Apple can do anything except when there's a problem that's put to it.
1:05:08They tend to default to, "Well, I don't know if Apple can do that."
1:05:12It's like, well, look, I think Apple is full of clever people who can solve problems if it's to their benefit to do so.
1:05:21And this is one of those examples where it's like, "Well, what about all the existing apps that are written for Intel?"
1:05:28It's like, okay, well, do we not think that everything is already built in Xcode?
1:05:33Do we not think that Apple would have a way to fairly easily recompile all that stuff?
1:05:38Do we not think Apple would have a code translator?
1:05:41Do we not think Apple would not have already, if they were planning a move, have analyzed all the things that they need to build to ease the transition to ARM from classic Mac OS, like Intel apps?
1:05:54Do we think that Apple would say it's a Mac, but it only runs things that come from iOS or that are written in Swift?
1:06:01No, I don't think that. I think that Apple will provide compatibility beyond that.
1:06:06I think maybe the 64-bit transition is a part of that.
1:06:09So I look at that and say, "We can say, but what about software compatibility?"
1:06:15My big picture answer is I'm confident Apple has it figured out.
1:06:21And that's really all I have to say about it, is that I'm sure Apple in every chip transition has found a way to maintain compatibility.
1:06:30Probably a lot of the moves they've been making technically in the background have been about maintaining compatibility in some way or other as they move to a new architecture.
1:06:38And if Apple sees benefits in creating a whole new series of laptops using their processors, and I think they do, I think we can all see what they are potentially, something like that's not going to get in their way.
1:06:50And I would expect that there will be a story that is relatively painless for developers, and perhaps apps will do what they did the last chip transition, which is unmodified apps will run slow, and modified apps, updated apps will then run fast. That's what happens.
1:07:10They will do whatever they can to get 20 hours of battery life, right? It will just happen.
1:07:16This type of thing is like, well, this is the next generation of what a laptop can be, if you can start to get this.
1:07:24Do you not think that Apple is looking—I mean, this already happened with the iPad Pro, where they called out the iPad Pro speed versus laptops, right?
1:07:34Do you think Apple and its engineers on these ARM chips are not sitting there saying, "These Intel chips we're using are terrible.
1:07:44We can already do way better than them. Why are we still using their stuff?"
1:07:49And I think that this is why Apple is almost inevitably going to move its consumer laptops, at the very least, to ARM as soon as they can.
1:08:03Because then, again, they're going to control—Apple doesn't have to be limited by Intel's release schedule at that point,
1:08:09because I am sure that Apple feels constrained by Intel's processors and thinks that they can do a better job at those mobile processors than Intel can,
1:08:16because they already are, basically. So I just, you know, I don't know.
1:08:21With all the effort that Apple is putting into the Mac now to change it and grow it and make it something new,
1:08:26which wasn't the case maybe a couple of years ago, it's just hard not to imagine that this is the next step that lets them do something that would really,
1:08:35I think, is big for Apple's kind of pride, which is to be perceived as being way out ahead again.
1:08:43You know, ironically, not really ahead right now, and matching up with Samsung is not way out ahead,
1:08:49but depending on what Apple does, they could at least feel like they're back out on the cutting edge if they have this incredible thin light,
1:08:56long battery life ARM laptop that's got great performance because of Apple's chip-making prowess, etc., etc.
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1:10:17Time for some #AskUpgrade questions.
1:10:20Brad wants to know, "Do you use iCloud documents in desktop sync? If not, why not?"
1:10:26I absolutely don't. I keep lots of big files. I wrote about this when it came out. I keep lots of big files on my desktop.
1:10:36My desktop is my current working, and I have no interest in iCloud attempting.
1:10:43And in fact, the last time I checked, it was broken.
1:10:46iCloud is trying to sync these files that are logic projects with audio files, and they're enormous, so that it's going to sync really slowly.
1:10:56I don't need them to sync. I don't want them to sync.
1:10:59And Apple's response is basically, "Well, you either use this feature and change how you work, or you don't use this feature."
1:11:06And I choose not to use that feature. It has no benefit to me.
1:11:09And in fact, it actually broke things when I did use it because of the way that an app like Logic works.
1:11:18Apple basically said, "Don't do that. Don't use Logic in this way on the desktop."
1:11:25So I turned it off, and I see no value in it, honestly.
1:11:29I don't have another Mac that I use all the time that has the—even my laptop.
1:11:34It doesn't have a disk space to mirror what's on my desktop anyway. I don't want it to be the same.
1:11:39So for me, it's irrelevant. It's just not a thing that I want.
1:11:43Yeah, I'm pretty much exactly the same.
1:11:45I don't use my desktop as a place for important files.
1:11:49It is purely for projects in active work that mostly need to be completed on my iMac itself.
1:11:56And if I need to take an editing project and have it on my MacBook Pro, I will put it in Dropbox,
1:12:04because Dropbox can handle the syncing of Logic projects. I do it all the time.
1:12:08That's how me and Gray edit. We put a Logic project in a Dropbox shared folder, I edit, then he takes it,
1:12:16and he edits and sends it back to me. It's just syncing.
1:12:20It is very dangerous. You cannot both open that project at the same time or horrific things will happen.
1:12:26Yes, that would be bad.
1:12:27Yes, but Dropbox can handle the syncing.
1:12:31And as you pointed out, through testing and just mentioned it there, iCard can't.
1:12:35But for the same reasons, the type of stuff that I'm keeping on my desktop, it would just blow through the storage that I have.
1:12:42And I don't want to do that.
1:12:44Jonah has written in and said, "Myke, I noticed a number of tweets from UK Twitter users
1:12:48saying that Apple Card is no big deal and has features that have been around for a while in the UK.
1:12:52What is your take? Is Apple Card innovative or just innovative for the US?"
1:12:56So, one, to the last point, yes, definitely.
1:13:00Because the United States, I love America for many reasons.
1:13:04Banking is not a thing that is very advanced in America.
1:13:08Everything about the financial process there is kind of held back.
1:13:13Like contactless cards, right? We all spoke about Apple Pay being accepted everywhere and still is.
1:13:18Like, accepted basically everywhere in Europe, still not everywhere in America.
1:13:22Even if the contactless thing exists, maybe it doesn't work, maybe it is chip, maybe it's not.
1:13:27Maybe Apple Pay works, maybe it doesn't.
1:13:29Did you see there was a story in the New York Times about how they're updating, they're going to get rid of the MetroCard.
1:13:34Which is a card with a magnetic stripe on it and they're going to go for their public transit.
1:13:39And they're going to a contactless system. And Apple Pay works with it and it's this whole thing that they've taken way too long to do to go to a full contactless system.
1:13:48Great. Sounds great. But there aren't contactless credit cards in America.
1:13:55We made a run at it about five years ago and then, like, it seems to have fallen off.
1:14:00And so one of the funny things that's happening is, as a part of this transition, banks are sending chip cards with a contactless aspect, with a contactless chip in it as well, to people with zip codes in the area of the MTA in New York.
1:14:20Because they're going to need it to tap to enter if they don't have a, like, Apple Pay kind of thing.
1:14:27And so, and I just laughed when I saw that because it's like literally, "Oh, geez, I guess somebody wants contactless credit cards."
1:14:34But they're not going to, like, send everybody a contactless credit card.
1:14:37I think some credit cards will let you request one, some won't.
1:14:41But apparently all the credit card manufacturers are like, "Okay, we got to send it to the people who live around New York City because they're going to need it to take the subway."
1:14:49But it's just, it's ridiculous.
1:14:52So in regards to, I think people, a lot of people are talking about, like, the money management stuff, right? The grouping of transactions and all that kind of stuff.
1:15:00This exists in many places in the UK, but I have not seen any credit card company that does this.
1:15:06So a lot of, like, debit card and, like, bank accounts, like these new internet-focused banks do this stuff.
1:15:12But I've not seen any credit card that does it, at least from any major provider.
1:15:16But showing stuff about, like, how easy it is to repay and focusing on showing you what your interest is, a lot of that stuff is pretty new, especially in the credit card space, even here.
1:15:27But more than anything, the integration and the way that everything works and the way that Cashpack works and that sort of stuff, that is pretty unique to Apple Card.
1:15:36Like, it is an innovative product, especially in the credit card space.
1:15:39Even if some of these features are available in some other types of banking products, I think that it's still an innovative product in its own way.
1:15:48I, one more thing about the US banking system that you'll like as a former UK bank professional.
1:15:54We just set up our business to pay people via bank transfer, basically, instead of writing them checks.
1:16:01Which is, like, an extra fee to do this, to set it up at our bank, but we want to do it because we want to get, stop writing checks because they're stupid.
1:16:10And we want to have it all be electronic transfers.
1:16:13And I'll tell you, Myke, the paperwork and confusion at major banks in America about how to set that up is amazing.
1:16:23I am convinced now that the American banking system is, like, layers and layers of tellers and customer service people and computers and web interfaces.
1:16:33But at the core, there's, like, a guy wearing a, like, green eye shade and has, like, a little clicky-clicky calculating machine and some paper files.
1:16:45And in the end, you get, this is actually how IDG's accounting system was, too, back in the day.
1:16:49It's, like, we had all these electronic things, but in the end, there was somebody in a room with paper who did everything.
1:16:55And our experience setting up our electronic payment system has not dissuaded me from believing that in the end, the American banking system is, like, eight people in a conference room with filing cabinets and pencils.
1:17:09It is hilarious to me that you even had, like, you had to set it up, that it wasn't just, like, a thing.
1:17:15Yeah, that was my thing. It's, like, yes, don't we just get? No, no, you don't just get.
1:17:19Don't be wild.
1:17:20Is there a web interface where we, no, no, you have to fill out a form and then countersign it and then press this button and then click over here in a web portal that is clearly from, like, 1999.
1:17:29And, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, America, a little behind the times in terms of financial products, but maybe Apple will help drag us into the present.
1:17:39Let me tell you, though, never spend too much time looking into or thinking about how banking actually works because it is a really horrifying thought about how money exists.
1:17:50It's not good to sit and think about that and you realize, hang on a minute, it's all just not, anyway, let's not do this. I don't want to freak everybody out. You don't want to think about how the money actually works.
1:18:00Will has said, "I have a Mac Mini that can no longer fit all of my photos library onto its hard drive.
1:18:05How would you go about backing up photos to a network-attached storage or online backup service as new photos are added to the photos app without syncing the entire library to one Mac?
1:18:16Is that possible?"
1:18:18No, no. What you have to do is you have to buy an external drive that will fit your photos library.
1:18:24And then move it all?
1:18:25And then you need to back up the photos library using an online backup service. But you need to have, if you want to have a separate backup of all your photos outside of iCloud, you need to have a Mac with keep all photos turned on, synced to iCloud, and then back that library up.
1:18:43That's the only way you can do it. So if your Mac Mini won't fit your photos library anymore, the alternative would be you could take some portion of your library and export it and put it somewhere else.
1:18:54But then it's not in your photos library. I don't like that idea. I think you need to buy an external SSD. They're not that expensive. You attach it to your Mac Mini.
1:19:02I know it might be a little bit slower, but I feel like that's what you got to do if you want to do this.
1:19:07Because otherwise there's really no way to do it. Because if photos hasn't downloaded the full resolution version, you can't back it up anywhere else.
1:19:16And you can't, you know, that's the bottom line is that photos is going to have to back, is going to have to download the whole image and then you can back it up.
1:19:23And if you don't have room for photos to download the whole image, then you can turn that feature off, but then it's going to be deleting things randomly and then your backups are going to be not a complete backup.
1:19:32And you can't do that. So I'm sorry to Jonah, or not to Jonah, to Will, but this is what we have.
1:19:39You got to have a disk big enough to contain your entire photos library if you want to do it this way.
1:19:44Well, Will at least had all the component parts, right? He was talking about an online backup service, talking about like using some kind of network attached storage.
1:19:55It's like, yeah, it's all of those things just in a slightly different configuration.
1:19:58Yeah. I mean, if it's really no go, my next option is, again, to export a bunch of your originals out of photos and delete them out of the photo library and then back those up a lot in lots of places.
1:20:12But you've just, and you can even put them in another iPhoto library somewhere else, but you're not going to have them in your iCloud photos library at that point, which is probably not what you want.
1:20:21So I think you just got to bite the bullet and get a, you know, external SSD or something.
1:20:28We've spoken about security features in Catalina a lot, and Paul has a question.
1:20:33In Catalina, is there an equivalent of the iOS privacy settings that display so you can see which of your installed apps have permissions and what they're for?
1:20:42Do you follow what I'm asking? So like you can go in and say like, oh, I want to see what apps have the permission to use my microphone, for example. Does Catalina have this?
1:20:50It does. In the security and privacy setting, there is an app view that will tell you what apps have for, you know, everything. And in fact, there's one that's a, it'll say like what folders it's got access to and all that stuff.
1:21:06So that is in the privacy tab of the security and privacy settings in Catalina.
1:21:11And Forgo Tuna Fish asks, what do you think, I like this, this is a crossover question, what do you think the over under is on Marco Arment buying both a Mac Pro and Pro display at XDR on day one of them being available?
1:21:28Well, I don't know how you said an over under on Marco on day one. Like, are we setting a time during day one at which he buys it or what?
1:21:37Let's just talk about our odds. Like, what do we think? What do we think? What do we think is going to happen?
1:21:42What do we think Marco is going to do?
1:21:43I don't know about day one, but I reckon he's going to get both.
1:21:47Yeah, so I think if Marco was not, this is going to be my prediction, if Marco was not a podcaster and pundit and person who writes and talks about Apple a lot, I don't think he'd buy it.
1:22:04No.
1:22:05I don't think he'd buy it.
1:22:06But it's more than that.
1:22:07I think he's happy with what he's got.
1:22:08It's more than that. It's not just being a podcaster. It is being a host of ATP because John is not buying it day one, no matter what.
1:22:15And I think it would be a travesty if at least one of them didn't have that Mac Pro. Their entire show's identity is built around the Mac Pro. One of them needs to get it.
1:22:26So I think, well, that's true. That's true. My larger point was just like, I think that one of them needs to get it and it's going to be Marco, presumably, if John is not there on day one.
1:22:37And John is now talking about how he wants to make sure all the bugs are out of it and maybe he waits for the next version.
1:22:42He's waffling.
1:22:43I don't believe him.
1:22:45But if I were, you know, and I don't know how they run their business. I imagine they just take their money and split it up. If there was like an ATP incorporated, I would, as president of ATP incorporated, I would authorize the purchase of a Mac Pro for John for ATP and say, "Here you go. You got a Mac Pro."
1:23:04I agree with you there. Yeah. I don't know how they run their business, though.
1:23:06If John is not doing that, I think Marco will get one just because he wants to have that experience. Who knows? Maybe he'll sell it to John or he'll return it or something like that.
1:23:19No, there was that whole conversation, do you remember, which I completely agreed with. This was on like, this was months ago, like weeks ago, where that was something that John said was a possibility.
1:23:28And Marco was like, "There's no way I'm selling it to you." And I completely agree.
1:23:31That's true.
1:23:32That's true. Because if anything ever went wrong with it, you, even if no matter what John would say, you know that he would always blame you. I don't care what he said in that regard. I know it. I would feel that way.
1:23:43He would be thinking, he'd be like, "Marco, Marco gave me this lemon computer for like 15 years." He would be saying that. So yeah, I think Marco will buy a Mac Pro at some point in the first two weeks?
1:24:01Yeah, I don't know if it'll be day one, but I believe it will happen. I reckon he will have one on the day that they ship though, right? Because it won't ship immediately. I reckon they'll take pre-orders for a bit, but I reckon he'll have made his decision before the shipping window expires.
1:24:17The display, now, I don't know if he would buy the display. I actually think there is more, there is a stronger chance of him buying the display than the Mac Pro even, because he would buy it for a laptop.
1:24:29I don't agree.
1:24:30I think he's very excited about the potential 16-inch laptop, and if he does that, he'll probably want to monitor and he doesn't want to use one of the LG ones, right? So he'll get the Pro Display next year.
1:24:41I think John will buy a Mac Pro in the first three months, and he'll buy that LG display.
1:24:47Do you think he'll get the LG one?
1:24:49And he'll put tape on it. I do, I do, I do, because here's why. Unless Apple comes out with an Apple-branded thing, which I don't think they are now that that LG thing got updated, I think he will because he's going to want the Mac Pro, and because he's not...
1:25:04John is a very practical person, and I can't see John buying an inappropriate and expensive monitor for himself.
1:25:11But do you think he could take it though? Like, just from a design perspective? I don't know.
1:25:16I think he's going to do stuff to try and mitigate it, and then he'll complain about it.
1:25:22Is $5,000 worth the opposite of being completely frustrated every single day for the next 10 years?
1:25:31If you're just joining us, this is the Accidental Tech Podcast fan podcast, where we talk about what the posts on a different podcast are going to do with their technology buying decisions. Hi, Casey.
1:25:42Thank you so much to everybody who sent in questions today with the hashtag #AskUpgrade. Thank you so much for listening.
1:25:50Don't forget there is going to be a trailer at the end of this episode for our Techs adventure with a crossover for members of Relay FM.
1:25:58So we're doing a crossover with the Cortex Podcast, which I am also on, where me and CGP Grey play a Techs adventure led by the Snellatron, which is Jason Snell, who is our parter, which is always a wonderful thing every year.
1:26:10So you can go sign up to become a Relay FM member. You can click the link in the show notes to do that, or you can go to relay.fm/membership.
1:26:17You're going to hear a trailer for that to entice you into becoming to a Relay FM member.
1:26:22And I think you will agree that once you hear it, you will, in fact, be enticed to get your hands on that episode or your ears on the episode, in fact.
1:26:29Thank you so much to our sponsors this week, the fine folk over at Eero, Linode and Pingdom.
1:26:34If you want to find Jason online, you can go to sixcolors.com or the incomparable.com and Jason hosts many shows here at Relay FM, like I do as well, relay.fm/shows where you can find those and many, many more.
1:26:46Jason is @jsnell on social media. I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E. And we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell.
1:26:55Goodbye, Myke Hurley.
1:26:57It's 1987 and Detective Jack Slade and his partner Jetta Chang must take down a crime boss and restore law and order.
1:27:06This is Danger Town Beatdown!
1:27:11Oh yeah!
1:27:14Wow!
1:27:15Rated Mature, 16+.
1:27:17You're roused from sleep by neon lights streaming in through your window. It's 1158 PM, time to start your day.
1:27:25Get coffee should be the first thing to do.
1:27:28Should we see what's on the answering machine?
1:27:30A voice says, "Slade, you're going to pay for shutting down our operation. We have your partner. Bring us the tape. Come alone."
1:27:40Uh oh.
1:27:42Open up! Let's talk! The man kicks down the door and enters, blocking the exit.
1:27:49We did that thing again where we took too long.
1:27:51He places an envelope on the table. Consider this an advance to cover gas and tolls.
1:27:57Oh, I'm slightly confused.
1:27:59We're trying to be paid off. They want us out of town.
1:28:01Oh!
1:28:03Somebody does.
1:28:04I'm so naive. I didn't know, I didn't realize what was going on in this arrangement.
1:28:08The badge is a Santa Marina police detective's badge. Your badge. The gun is a loaded Beretta 92S. Your gun.
1:28:18You're outside a run-down apartment building. There is a strip club here. How quaint, just like a Norman Rockwell painting.
1:28:25There's a bright neon sign and the words, "Tiger's Den."
1:28:31Well, let's go to the strip club. See, that's some good detective work there, Myke. You have to inspect the strip club.
1:28:37Alright, take a look at the wallet.
1:28:41It contains a $100 bill and a California driver's license.
1:28:46Can we take that $100, Myke?
1:28:48No.
1:28:49That's not the bribe money.
1:28:50We don't need the money.
1:28:51Can we take the guy's ID? That seems like it might be useful. It doesn't really feel like stealing. That feels like evidence?
1:28:57Yeah, evidence.
1:28:59You know what would be evidence of bribery?
1:29:02The bribery money itself. That's not how that works, I don't think.
1:29:07Some gang members loiter outside an arcade.
1:29:10Gang members, okay.
1:29:12I think they have little "Hello, I'm in a gang" stickers on them, something to identify them as a gang member.
1:29:18Yeah, I mean, how else would you know, right?
1:29:20Yeah, they're color coordinated, that's how you know. They're all wearing pink and that's how you know they're in a gang.
1:29:24Wave to gang members?
1:29:26They toss their cigarettes and head inside when they see you.
1:29:29Oh.
1:29:30Are you trying to figure out how to ask him if he's amenable to a bribe, Myke? Is that what you're doing at this moment?
1:29:37I'm trying to figure out if there's anything we can do other than bribe him.
1:29:40Ask O'Brien, "Can we take care of this in Fargo?"
1:29:43I don't understand that.
1:29:46I thought that was like the code.
1:29:47I have no idea how you've gone from not understanding the concept of a bribe to rolling out phrases like that.
1:29:54Why is this so hard?
1:29:57I don't understand.
1:29:59Look around the room.
1:30:01Bosty draws a Smith and Wesson .38 Special, shoots you dead and escapes. The end.
1:30:06[Music]