0:00:00[Intro]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 256, and today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,
0:00:14SaneBox, and Texas Bandit. My name is Myke Hurley, and I, as always, have the pleasure of being joined
0:00:19by the man behind Six Colors, Mr. Jason Sal. That was a very long introduction, Myke. Hello. I thought
0:00:25about making it a little bit longer, but I bailed, because nobody cares about long introductions.
0:00:30#snotalkquestion comes from AJ. AJ wants to know, "Do you use spaces in your file names?"
0:00:37I do sometimes. A lot of the things that I do are things I'm posting on like a server somewhere as a
0:00:49file name, like on a podcast download, and I don't in there. Right, because that can get a bit wonky,
0:00:54right? Yeah, because you got to escape out the file names and stuff like that. Percent 20 and things,
0:00:59it's just not worth it. I do have spaces in many file names. I have like folders that are
0:01:07of projects, and I have spaces in them, and it's just fine. The little stories folder that I have,
0:01:14that where I have my stories, those are often, it's my active thing that I'm writing stories
0:01:23about, those often don't have spaces, but that's, I don't know, again, it's partially because I
0:01:28think I'm concerned about where they're sinking to and if I'm going to end up with trouble,
0:01:35but that's mostly just a habit, I think, that comes out of the olden days when I worked at a
0:01:41magazine and there was a workflow where you had to name things a specific way. But I do,
0:01:46not all the time. Sometimes I have, for my stories, I have a little slug of like where
0:01:51it's going followed by a dash followed by what the story is about, so there's no space there.
0:01:57But yeah, I use them in other places, so a little bit of both. I name my files like a human being,
0:02:02so you can read them. I think that's reasonable. They've got spaces in them.
0:02:08I understand the idea of either stuff not working in some places or it's just like a thing that
0:02:14you've always done because it wasn't always possible to have computers understand spaces.
0:02:19I never lived in that time. So all of my, you know, I use little sentences sometimes,
0:02:23right? Like a three or four word sentence. Very nice.
0:02:25The Mac always has that, right? The Mac always has had spaces and it's never been a problem.
0:02:32So yeah, I encourage people to use spaces and punctuation and whatever else they want in their
0:02:38file names. And when I don't do it, it's mostly out of a concern that this is a thing that's going
0:02:43to end up on a web server somewhere and I'm going to need to, you know, and then it's just not worth
0:02:49it. But I do a lot of the time. Thank you to AJ for this #SnellTalk question. If you'd like to
0:02:55submit a question for us to open the show in the future, just send out a tweet with the #SnellTalk
0:03:00and it may be considered for opening the show in a future episode. We have some billion dollar
0:03:05follow-up. This might be the most expensive follow-up we've ever had on the show before.
0:03:09It's also such a strange thing to have as follow-up, but we have a lot of other stuff
0:03:13we want to talk about today. Apple have acquired Intel's modem division. Apple have paid a billion
0:03:19dollars, or at least this acquisition is valued at a billion dollars, provided that it all gets
0:03:24approved by all the regulatory bodies. Apple will be getting themselves a ton of patents.
0:03:30That's patents. We call those patents. Otherwise you might think that they're just getting a lot of
0:03:34paint. Lots of painters are going to be joining the team over at Apple.
0:03:40It's the Intel colors though, which is weird. I don't know what they're going to do about that.
0:03:44But they're going to be getting a lot of patents and 2,200 employees, which is a lot of people,
0:03:51but that's kind of what Apple's going to be bringing over.
0:03:54This is really interesting because this is like a weird piece of follow-up from episode 242 of
0:04:01Upgrade back in April, where if you may remember that Apple struck a deal with Qualcomm for
0:04:08licensing of their patents and kind of to settle things with them and to use their
0:04:14modem chips for their phones whilst they were in court with them, which was a very peculiar story.
0:04:20It became even more peculiar when Intel later that day announced that they were getting out
0:04:24of the modem business for smartphones. The smartphone modem business, I should say.
0:04:28They're still in the other, they're still in the modem business for other devices. It's just for
0:04:33smartphones is what Apple's applying for, or buying, I should say, what they want.
0:04:38So yeah, this is kind of where we are. I mean, it seems pretty obvious, right? Apple just want
0:04:42to make their own chips. They don't actually want to be working with Qualcomm forever. So they are
0:04:48buying up the intellectual property that they need, buying up the people that they want,
0:04:53and they will move forward with their own project to kind of push them into the future.
0:04:57It's how it would seem.
0:04:58Yeah, this is Myke and the Modems was that episode. It was a classic.
0:05:04Great title.
0:05:04Where you got to talk about modems because it's your favorite thing.
0:05:07Oh, I love modems.
0:05:08To talk about modems. Nothing better. Yeah, I think it goes back to those,
0:05:15it's the classic lines about Apple wanting control. Apple's talked about how they repeatedly,
0:05:22about how they need to have control of key parts of their technology, right? That is the,
0:05:30it's a thing that Steve Jobs learned really early on and has imparted to everybody else
0:05:37who works at Apple. And that is what motivates this. It's Mark Gurman actually had the line
0:05:47from a Bloomberg article, believe it or not, in 2004, an interview with Jobs.
0:05:50Jobs said, "I've always wanted to own and control the primary technology in everything we do."
0:05:54And Tim Cook said, "We believe we need to own and control the primary technologies
0:05:59behind the products that we make." So it's the old primary technology thing. And I wrote a whole
0:06:03thing at Tom's Guide about this because you can trace this back to things like the Mac got beat up
0:06:09because its web browsers were too slow, but the web browser was Internet Explorer. And so they
0:06:13did Safari because they wanted to take control of that thing. They were getting beaten up about a
0:06:17thing that they did not control because Microsoft had a bad web browser on the Mac. And so they took
0:06:22control of it. You go back to when Steve Jobs stood on stage and said there was going to be a
0:06:26G5 with a 3 GHz processor because IBM had told him there would be and there wasn't. And they were
0:06:32getting beat up for PowerPC not being as fast as Intel and they switched to Intel. This goes back
0:06:39a whole long way. Apple wants to control it. Apple wants to invent it if they can. And since they
0:06:45bought PA Semi in 2008, they have ended up being a spectacularly good chip development company,
0:06:55which is simply not something that usually happens for the maker of computers or smartphones or
0:07:02whatever. But Apple said, "No, no, no. If we want to do this, we need to own this and we need to
0:07:08control this." And as a result, they've got these advantages in their chips over the competition.
0:07:14And the competition can't use their chips because they're only for Apple. So the modem thing,
0:07:21they got stuck. Intel was not delivering and Qualcomm had terms for their patents and terms
0:07:31for their licensing that Apple found unacceptable. So they had that whole lawsuit for that period of
0:07:35time. And it was very clearly another one of those cases where an illustrative moment of
0:07:42why you need to control this stuff because now here you are and you've got these two vendors
0:07:47and one of them you hate and the other one is doing a bad job. And what do you do then?
0:07:52And so this is the last part of that. I said on Twitter, this is the dog bites man story,
0:07:58which is the obvious story. Everybody's talking about man bites dog. The whole idea there is that
0:08:03that's a story. Man bites dog. What a table turning thing. But dog bites man, it's literally,
0:08:09"Oh, Intel is not doing modems anymore. Apple's doing modems now."
0:08:16Wait, you say Apple bought Intel's modem business? What a surprise. I think we all
0:08:20figured this was the most likely scenario and here it is. And there still won't be an Apple
0:08:24design modem for a few years yet. This is a long lead time kind of thing. But I do wonder in the
0:08:29long run if it might mean Apple being even more aggressive in kind of integrating cellular
0:08:34connectivity in more products. This is my just wild speculation portion. But you talk about custom
0:08:40designed cellular connectivity now from Apple where they don't have to take a piece off of
0:08:46somebody's price list. Are they gonna, you know, in glasses, if they're still gonna make AR glasses
0:08:53in AirPods? In on-base Macs? And in laptops, yeah, right, which they haven't done up to now for
0:08:59various reasons, I think. But once they control and design all that and put it all together in
0:09:04one place, I think it's much more likely now because it's their stuff and they're not gonna
0:09:10have to pay a licensing fee. And they might have to pay, depending on Qualcomm, they might have to
0:09:14pay some patent licenses. But by picking up Intel's licenses, that is, I think, going to be at least
0:09:21somewhat defensive where, you know, they're not, I don't know the nature of Qualcomm's patents versus
0:09:27Intel's patents, but it helps in that kind of jousting, I think, for intellectual property of
0:09:33who owes who what. >> Typically, there's more than one way to do things, right? So,
0:09:40I mean, you would naturally assume that Intel were doing things slightly different to the way
0:09:43that Qualcomm does them so they didn't interfere with each other. That just seems like the logical
0:09:47thing. But as I say, we have literally no idea what the difference is between them. But if Apple
0:09:53was still gonna be paying the same amount of money to Qualcomm after buying Intel, I can't imagine
0:09:58they would have done it. Like, this definitely feels like a play to assist them in having,
0:10:04in making this stuff on their own. >> I don't know. I mean, they already, they were working
0:10:08with Intel. Intel's got the business. It's not just the patents. It is these 2,000 employees,
0:10:13right? So, it's a huge kind of influx of chip design talent and modem design talent coming to
0:10:20Apple. So, it gets them-- >> I'm sure you could buy the people and the technology without the
0:10:27intellectual property, right? Like, they wanted all of it, you would assume, for a reason like that.
0:10:32>> I don't know. >> Who knows? >> I don't want to make that claim. I feel like,
0:10:37I feel like there's value in both of these things. >> Sure. Oh, there is. >> In the intellectual
0:10:41property and in the people. And they're kind of a package deal here from Intel, which is good for
0:10:47Apple. And, you know, in the end, it may just be literally that Apple still pays Qualcomm some sort
0:10:54of fee, but they're no longer buying chips from them. And the fee is on very specific things,
0:11:00and it's less than they're doing now. >> And who knows? Maybe Qualcomm start paying Apple a fee
0:11:04as well, right? >> Maybe. Well, I mean, you negotiate a--but what it does mean is that in
0:11:09the end, Apple is going to be able to make a modem chip itself on its own standards, on its own time.
0:11:15>> With their own features, all the things that they want, not the things that Qualcomm wants.
0:11:18>> Exactly. Yeah. >> All right. Next week, we're going to be recording on Tuesday,
0:11:23just as a programming note. And we will, I'm sure, be talking about Apple's results,
0:11:27the Q3 results, which are going to be out on the 30th of July. So, that's tomorrow as we record
0:11:33this episode. This is the third fiscal quarter, which as Jason has written in the notes is
0:11:38typically the quiet one. >> Yeah, it's the smallest quarter that Apple has every year. So, it will
0:11:43probably not be super interesting, but you never know. >> Well, my perspective is at this point in
0:11:48time, there is no boring quarter because Apple's in so much change. So, I'm really intrigued to see
0:11:53what this quarter looks like, right? Will iPhone sales still be down, right? This is stuff that I
0:11:59want to see. So, I mean, I am very intrigued. You know I like the results. I can't tell you why. I
0:12:06don't know why, but I enjoy it. I like looking at the charts like a weirdo. But I'm intrigued. I'm
0:12:14going to keep my eye on this tomorrow. So, I'm excited about it. So, we'll talk about it next
0:12:19week for sure. >> Yep. >> All right. We've got some upstream news. We're going to tag team this one
0:12:23this week. Do you want to tell me about Amazon? >> Sure. So, there's a lot going on right now in
0:12:28LA. The television critics associations having their summer press tour, which goes on for like
0:12:34three weeks. It's what my podcast pal Tim Goodman has referred to as the death march with cocktails.
0:12:40Lots of cocktail parties, lots of shaking hands, lots of presentations, and it goes on for a very
0:12:48long time. Amazon did their presentation. This is a chance for Amazon to talk about what they're up
0:12:56to. They did make a lot of news as a part of it. Not everybody makes news. Sometimes it's sort of
0:13:01like here are things we already announced, but meet the cast or whatever it is. So,
0:13:07they talked to Jennifer Salke who runs Prime Video now. For upstream purposes, I thought an
0:13:15interesting thing that she said because she says she knows that Prime Video is a different kind of
0:13:20service, different kind of product than maybe some of their competitors because it's a part of the
0:13:25larger Amazon Prime product. She said, "We have a very unique business in the sense that our entire
0:13:30North Star is to entertain and delight Prime customers all over the world. We're not in the
0:13:35volume business. We're in the curated business." That is setting them off from Netflix a little
0:13:41bit. But I do think that there is something to this. This is the argument all along about how do
0:13:46you analyze Prime Video. Their charter, at least as Jennifer Salke views it, is to entertain
0:13:54Prime customers. So, what they do is not as tied to the total number of Prime subscriptions that
0:14:03Amazon has as Netflix's is to the total number of Netflix subscriptions because with Netflix,
0:14:10the programming is everything and with Prime Video, the programming is one of the things
0:14:15that ties you to Prime. Because most people that are watching any Prime Video content are watching
0:14:21it because it's just a bonus that they have. Yeah, I mean, would I pay for Prime Video as a standalone
0:14:28service? I don't know. I might. There's a bunch of stuff on there that I like. But my point is
0:14:34I've never considered that, right? Because it's wrapped up in Prime, which I do pay for
0:14:43and which I do like as a whole. And the video is an important part of it.
0:14:49But I've never really considered like, "What's my value in Prime Video as a standalone?" No,
0:14:55because it's not. It's not a standalone service. It's a thing I get with shows on it that I like
0:15:01and that I might consider as a streaming service in some other context, but I literally never have.
0:15:08And I think that she's right that they're playing a different game. She's not saying that they're
0:15:13lesser or greater than Netflix or any of their other competitors, but she's absolutely right
0:15:17in that the game they're playing is different because of what the product is. And when Jeff Bezos
0:15:23has his declaration that I want worldwide hits and I want all that stuff, that is all
0:15:30part of what is guiding her process here in terms of creating this, whatever she said,
0:15:36the entertainment and delight of Prime members. They did announce some stuff. So they're selling
0:15:43a lot of first look deals with actors and actor-producer and writer-producer types.
0:15:49Actors you may know, Forest Whitaker, Connie Britton, and Lena Waithe, all
0:15:54they announced first look deals. So they bring them projects and Amazon gets the right of first
0:16:00acceptance for those projects. They unveiled the Lord of the Rings creative team. We heard some of
0:16:07the names and it's nobody you've ever heard of. It's people, it's the writers and the producers
0:16:12for the most part. Interesting tidbit in the Lord of the Rings series information. The Hollywood
0:16:18reporter said, "Commitment is believed to be for five seasons plus a potential spinoff. Once
0:16:26production budgets, casting, writers, producers, and visual effects are factored in, the total for
0:16:30the Lord of the Rings series could hit a billion dollars." Yes, a billion dollars for a TV show.
0:16:36I feel like it has to be though, right? Yeah. If you really want to do this, like Amazon,
0:16:43you bought the rights to the Lord of the Rings, right? You picked something very,
0:16:47very expensive here. If you want to make it what it's going to be, you've got to put the money in.
0:16:52And this is Jeff Bezos again saying, "Basically, I want the next Game of Thrones. I want that."
0:16:58Right. And if you want the next Game of Thrones, you know you get it? Money. You put a lot of money
0:17:01in. That's what you need to do. Well, you put in the money and then you take your chances. That's
0:17:06the trick, right? I know that doesn't guarantee it. But I mean, to create something like, you know,
0:17:11like to come out of the gate and be like, "You know how Game of Thrones ended. We want to be
0:17:15like that from the beginning." That's going to cost a lot of money. And then it's like irrespective
0:17:20of how good it is, you still got to put the money in because this show will be a very strong visual
0:17:26show. And that costs money. I think there's an interesting question and discussion for another
0:17:32time about whether, about how big budget TV is going to happen on streaming services. And are we
0:17:44going to see a similar sort of thing as we've seen in the movie industry? Where in the movie industry,
0:17:50the big budget stuff has kind of crowded out everything else, but a lot of that stuff has gone
0:17:54to streaming. And I think at some point we're thinking about what does it mean for TV that
0:18:00there's a billion dollar TV show that's being made? Like is that money going to crowd out the
0:18:07smaller stuff or is the smaller stuff? I feel like streaming is a perfect place for the smaller stuff.
0:18:13But I do wonder about that sometimes if there's almost a natural drive in the entertainment
0:18:17industry, if you're looking for a big hit to push some of the cheaper stuff to the side.
0:18:22Because how many mid-budget dramas and comedies could be made for what they're making one
0:18:29Lord of the Rings out of? Well this is the amount of money that Apple put in to start their entire
0:18:34service. And we know that there was more money spent than this, but that's the same amount of
0:18:39money. So that's a lot of money. Yeah, so that's the question. And I get the reason is sort of like
0:18:45you can make ten different Patriots, Sad Spies, which officially is not coming back by the way.
0:18:53Which is so disappointing. Even Sadder because that's such a great show. Don't let the name
0:18:58fool you. Patriot is a great, great, great, great show about a sad man in a suit. But they can make
0:19:0350 of them and nobody's going to watch them, right? Or they can make Lord of the Rings. So I
0:19:08think it's an interesting just business question about shooting for the huge hit which Amazon is
0:19:15definitely doing. And which Apple may be doing too with some of the things that they're trying
0:19:20to produce. And versus flooding the zone with lots and lots of content which is what Netflix does.
0:19:28Netflix is looking for big hits too, but Netflix is also doing a lot of volume and touching a bunch
0:19:34of different areas. They did another interesting thing about Amazon and I don't know, you know,
0:19:39we talk about Netflix having all of their data and all their statistics and using that to judge
0:19:44that there was that one report that said that within two weeks of a show being dropped on
0:19:48Netflix, Netflix basically knows its entire lifespan. It knows it can take the analytics
0:19:56of the first couple of weeks and say with a high degree of accuracy, how many plays it's going to
0:20:01get for the rest of time. Now, yeah, occasionally something will kind of like bob up later and people
0:20:05discover it and it'll be a surprise, but very rarely is that the case. And they use this data
0:20:10to decide whether they want to invest more money in it, what it means for them. I think it's
0:20:14interesting that Amazon in some contrast to that has announced that they just renewed two shows
0:20:23whose first Amazon produced seasons haven't aired because what is that based on? And I think partially
0:20:32it may be based on that they're delaying some stuff being released and they need to make
0:20:36contractual decisions to renew the show or not. It may be that, but I think it may also be just
0:20:41a purely creative thing, which is they like how it's looking and they want to just give them a
0:20:46shot in the arm right now and say, yes, we like these. So "Carnival Row," which is a show that
0:20:50has not even premiered yet has been renewed for a second season on Amazon. And "The Expanse,"
0:20:54which was saved off of the Sci-Fi channel by Amazon for a fourth season, which will premiere
0:21:00in December has already been renewed for a fifth season. So I don't know what they're doing over
0:21:04there, but they're canceling shows I like, they're renewing shows that haven't aired yet. They're
0:21:09definitely playing a different game at Amazon. - Marvel showed up a bunch of stuff as part of
0:21:15Comic-Con. And so if you've been ever been paying attention to the way that Marvel has been running
0:21:21the Marvel Cinematic Universe, they talk about the movies in phases. So like all of the different
0:21:26movies fall into different phases and we're about to move into phase four, right? So what came after
0:21:32"Avengers Endgame?" And this includes a couple of sequels, a couple of new movies, right? We could
0:21:36finally get in a "Black Widow" movie. There's going to be a sequel to "Doctor Strange." There's going
0:21:43to be a "Thor" movie and amazingly Natalie Portman's coming back and she's going to be female
0:21:49Thor, which is awesome. I'm very excited to see what they do with that. That was a big surprise.
0:21:53But if you want to know about what Disney is thinking these days, you want to take a look at
0:21:59this because the phase four includes a bunch of Disney+ content, which is very, very interesting.
0:22:05- This is a huge... For me, that slide, it tells the whole story, which is when they unveiled phase
0:22:12three, they put up a slide with... And when they do this, it's hilarious because in the moment,
0:22:17you're like, "Oh my God, that's so far away. That's like four years from now." And then you look up
0:22:22and it's like, "Oh, they've released every movie that was on that slide now. Oh, that's interesting.
0:22:27Four years have passed." But they do it and you're like, "Oh, here's all the Marvel movies. It's two
0:22:32or three movies a year for the next five years or four years." And this time, there's five Disney+
0:22:39series on that slide, along with all of the Marvel movies. And that says it all.
0:22:44- There are more movies that they haven't announced yet, which is another thing. They've given dates
0:22:49for four movies, but they haven't said what they are. And that's just a thing. And you'd expect
0:22:55Guardians of the Galaxy. - Guardians of the Galaxy 3, Black Panther sequel is in there too.
0:22:58I don't think they've dated it, but we know that they're happening. But the Disney+ thing. So
0:23:03a lot of people still have this misunderstanding. It's like a little different version of the...
0:23:10It's the same people who brought you Planet of the Apps who are doing Apple's TV service,
0:23:14where it's like, "No, that's not true at all." People are like, "Oh, but Marvel's been making TV
0:23:20shows forever. This isn't new. They're the people who did Agents of SHIELD and Daredevil on Netflix
0:23:27and all that." And so the really short version of it is that Marvel TV is operated by the same
0:23:36division of Marvel that does Marvel Comics, which is a guy named Ike Perlmutter, who is famously
0:23:41like a cheapskate. And they have a studio that has a bunch of people who are making TV shows.
0:23:50And Kevin Feige, who does all the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, used to report to Ike Perlmutter.
0:23:57And after he made billions and billions of dollars from Disney, Kevin Feige basically went to Disney
0:24:02and said, "I don't want to work for this guy anymore." And they said, "Well, thank you for
0:24:06your billions and billions of dollars. You can work for the Disney studio chief instead of
0:24:10Ike Perlmutter." So for years now, Marvel's movies have been run from a completely separate part of
0:24:18Disney, completely different fiefdom than Marvel TV. What's relevant about these shows, which is
0:24:24The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and WandaVision, which has got the Scarlet Witch in it, the What If
0:24:29animated series, a Loki series with Tom Hiddleston, a Hawkeye series with Jeremy Renner, those are not
0:24:35just actors from the movies that you've seen before now on TV playing those same characters,
0:24:41but it's all being produced by Kevin Feige out of his group, not out of Ike Perlmutter's group,
0:24:48at Marvel TV. And so this is sort of what we were promised with things like Agents of Shield
0:24:53and Daredevil and Luke Cage and Jessica Jones and Never Really Got, which is those were supposed to
0:25:00be integrated into the Marvel universe, but kind of weren't in the end because it was different
0:25:04people doing them. And these are on the slide for phase four. So how it will actually play out in
0:25:14terms of integration, I don't know, because it is actually really hard to integrate all of these
0:25:19products together, although Marvel has done a great job, but it certainly speaks to how important
0:25:24Disney's streaming service is. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, "Oh, you want to see what Captain America's
0:25:30doing? Well, it's on TV now, so go there." Right? Like it's like super interesting.
0:25:35All of these shows will be rolling out from 2020 to 2021, then not all coming at the same time.
0:25:42None of them will be ready, I think, for when the service actually launches.
0:25:46No, no, that'll be the Star Wars series will be ready there, but the Marvel stuff's not going to
0:25:50be ready for another year after it launches. And all of the, pretty much all of them, except
0:25:55for What If. What If is like this animated show where they're using all of the voice actors that
0:26:00are like the actual movie stars, but it's like an animated show where they take a scenario and change
0:26:07the results. So like, what if somebody died or didn't die on that kind of thing? Right. So they're
0:26:12going to be able to go back. If you think about Avengers End Game, here's a very, very mild spoiler
0:26:16for Avengers End Game. There is within the plot of Avengers End Game, the idea of what if things went
0:26:22differently in movies you've already watched. That's, I'll just leave it there. That's what the
0:26:26What If show is. It's animated, but it's going to have those act, the same actors as the voices. And
0:26:30it's going to be basically like playing off of things that happened in the movies, which is a fun,
0:26:37it was a comic that I used to love actually as a kid where they did this with what if this event
0:26:41of this comic book changed and they're going to do it for the movie. So that could be fun.
0:26:45Hawkeye, which is one of the best, believe it or not, Hawkeye, one of the best Marvel comics of the
0:26:50last decade, Matt Fraction's Hawkeye. I'm wondering how that will influence this Hawkeye TV series
0:26:57because the idea of a TV series featuring Jeremy Renner seems really boring. But it's going to have
0:27:03Kate Bishop, who is the young, also Hawkeye, is going to be introduced in that show. Using the
0:27:08logo of the comic as well. I know, right? They are. They are. So if they can, if they integrate
0:27:15some of the Matt Fraction Hawkeye DNA into that show, that'll be great. I can't wait to see a
0:27:19bunch of Russian mobsters in tracksuits saying bro in fall 2021. I really liked a, there was like a
0:27:30quote from Jeremy Renner on stage and he's like, it's going to be great to watch somebody
0:27:34without superpowers teach somebody else how to be a superhero. Like I really like that line. It's
0:27:39like accepting who Hawkeye is and because he's going to be training like the next Hawkeye,
0:27:44Kate Bishop. And it's just like a funny thing for him to say, but it's totally true. So yeah,
0:27:50I'm actually quite excited about that if they'd go down the route that we want them to. All right,
0:27:54there's a couple last things before we move on. NBC has announced that their streaming service
0:27:59will be launching in April, 2020. There's no real details, but that's when it's coming.
0:28:03Yeah, it's unclear. They said they're going to not overemphasize originals, which is,
0:28:08well, we'll see about that. Although I did mention what last week that, that I think I mentioned that
0:28:15here anyway, a show that I like AP bio got picked up. Yeah, I mentioned that here because it was the
0:28:19left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. It got picked up by NBC streaming
0:28:22after being canceled by NBC because they don't talk to each other. So that's essentially an
0:28:27original. Although, you know, maybe is this the fate of the NBC streaming service is that shows
0:28:33that they cancel on broadcast get saved for streaming. So it's like the leftover channel.
0:28:36I don't know. But they are doing some of that and they're going to have, of course, all their,
0:28:41their catalog content there, because they are owned by the cable company. A lot of the plan is
0:28:46that if you've got a cable subscription, I think you get access to the free tier of this with
0:28:51commercials. So they're kind of viewing it as sort of a, not a cord cutter paradise as much as kind of
0:28:57like an add on thing. It's, it's like we said about Amazon having a different model. NBC universal
0:29:02seems to be trying a different model because they're owned by the cable company. So we'll see
0:29:07how that goes. I'm unclear. I imagine like Hulu, they'll have a, or like CBS, it's the same thing.
0:29:12They'll have a tier where you pay them money and don't see ads, but that the base level will be an
0:29:17ad service that cable subscribers will get for cheap or free. And I made the mistake on Twitter
0:29:24last week of telling Tim Goodman from the Hollywood reporter, our joke about how this
0:29:28service could, should be called Peacock Plus. And he ran with it and actually mentioned it in
0:29:33a piece in the Hollywood reporter. So I think that means NBC executives now have seen our stupid joke
0:29:40about calling it Peacock Plus. I don't know why you think this is a bad thing. I think this is a
0:29:43fantastic thing. If it's called Peacock Plus in the end, I guess I'm going to do a victory lap,
0:29:49or maybe they'll give me a free with advertising subscription to NBC's Peacock Plus. I don't know.
0:29:54- Today's episode is brought to you by Pingdom from our friends at SolarWinds. It is summertime,
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0:31:07right now. Pingdom.com/000. Our thanks to Pingdom for their continued support of this show and all
0:31:12of RelayFN. We have some frustrating stories to talk about today. So we are going to have a very
0:31:22fun... Summer of fun! Summer of frustration. We are going to have a very fun Ask upgrade at the end of
0:31:27the show today. So don't worry, things will pick up. There was a report from Alex Hern in The
0:31:33Guardian stating that Apple hires contractors to review Siri requests to grade their accuracy and
0:31:40effectiveness. This is something that a little while ago Amazon got really heavily criticized
0:31:47for from a Bloomberg report, right? That they were having people listen in to Amazon Echo requests
0:31:55and then kind of reviewing them so they could test and kind of mark how well the service was doing.
0:32:00So that's kind of like to set the stage. I want to talk a little bit more about this and then we're
0:32:05going to dive into it together. So it isn't completely clear in Apple's policies that the
0:32:10requests will be heard by humans. So like I checked, I took a look at some of the privacy
0:32:15policy stuff and what Apple says is the things that you say in Dictate will be recorded and sent
0:32:19to Apple to process your requests. Now I'm sure a lawyer could tell me that it means that people
0:32:25could be listening to it but I don't think that that is clear enough considering how clear the
0:32:29rest of their privacy policy is around this. The rest of it's written in pretty understandable
0:32:33English but they do not state explicitly that a human being can listen to what you say to Siri.
0:32:39And I don't think that most people would ever assume that a human being is ever listening to
0:32:45what is said to Siri. Apple responded to the Guardian by saying that these requests are not
0:32:49associated to any user information and less than one percent are being reviewed. So they confirm
0:32:54that this is the thing that they do but they say that you know people can't be tracked. However,
0:32:59the whistleblower who talked to the Guardian says that they very frequently heard extremely private
0:33:05information like medical things, criminal activity and even sexual encounters and they say that the
0:33:10requests they receive include location data, contact details and app data which is a strange
0:33:16thing. Like I don't 100% know what that entails. Apple say that it's not possible to link back to
0:33:21the user from this information but the whistleblower says that they feel like they get enough that they
0:33:25could actually try and find people if they wanted to. So I don't know what to believe with that but
0:33:30it does seem interesting. And here's a quote from the individual who spoke to the Guardian.
0:33:36"Apple is subcontracting out. There is a high turnover. It's not like people are being encouraged
0:33:41to have consideration for people's privacy or even consider it. If there was someone with
0:33:45nefarious intentions it wouldn't be too hard to identify the people on the recordings."
0:33:50So Apple tends to talk a very good game when it comes to user privacy but they overstepped the
0:33:54line. Yeah and famously they did that billboard which was what happens when the iPhone stays on
0:34:01the iPhone. I will also point out and our friend... Which has come back to bite them
0:34:06like three times already. Yeah when you boast about something you are calling, basically
0:34:13inviting people to investigate you. So our colleague Renee Ritchie pointed out that the
0:34:22Bloomberg story actually says we talked to Apple and they said they do this too. The Bloomberg
0:34:28story about Amazon. That's funny. So that was back in April. And Renee's question was is it that you
0:34:35know the Guardian wrote a good headline and they lead with the fact that people have heard drug
0:34:39deals and sexual situations. Is that why people are talking about this? I think my answer is I
0:34:45think they're talking about it now because the Guardian got somebody who works on processing
0:34:51Siri requests to talk about it on the record with details about the human beings. Yes I think the
0:34:57thing that I don't like about this is that quote that I read right that like this individual feels
0:35:03like Apple is not doing a good enough job in educating on privacy. Like yeah that's the thing
0:35:09that upsets me the most. Subcontracting is a thing that makes me... I'm uncomfortable about the whole
0:35:13contracting relationship in Silicon Valley in general where big expensive tech companies that
0:35:18have lots and lots and lots of money say this part of our business isn't important enough for
0:35:23actual employees that we hire. We're gonna just pawn this off to some subcontractor somewhere.
0:35:28And this is like you know you see it in Facebook using subcontractors to do content moderation.
0:35:33But like Apple does this. Apple's like our social media I mean just to use a non-specific example
0:35:40here but like our social media or our documentation or whatever like that part of it is not as
0:35:46important. You don't have to be an Apple employee and those people then don't get the benefits of
0:35:49being an Apple employee. They don't get paid as well. They're like all of these things because
0:35:54they're using a subcontractor for something like private user data audio from inside people's homes
0:36:00to have that be to a subcontractor. Like I look at that and I say you're sending a message that this
0:36:07isn't as important because you got people kind of drifting in on the transom. They're hired by
0:36:11the contractor. They drift in. They listen to people's private conversations. They drift out
0:36:16again. Like it feels to me like it sends a message that this is less important to Apple by doing that.
0:36:22So that bothers me. I know I've heard from a lot of people since the story broke who say well of
0:36:26course you need humans. It's part of the process to train machine learning. And I would say I'm
0:36:34sure that there is an aspect of this process that is greatly benefited by human training to say what
0:36:40actually happened here and what went wrong and you can classify that interaction and you can use that
0:36:46to build a model that or improve the model. But a few things. First off I think always transparency
0:36:56and ideally giving users options is important. So for example when you set up an iPhone it says
0:37:03can Apple get your data for improving apps and the quality of the system and you do that at startup
0:37:10and you say yes or no. And if you say no nothing happens except you don't transmit the data.
0:37:14And it says can third-party developers see the data and you can say yes or no and nothing happens
0:37:19concerning the data. As far as I know that's not how Siri works. As far as I know the way you opt
0:37:23out is by turning off Siri or turning off the Siri request. And this is one of those things where I
0:37:31would have a lot less of a problem with this if Apple said you know what we may use audio clips
0:37:37that we'll try to anonymize to improve the service. Are you okay with that? And if I say no
0:37:42then it doesn't send them. But that's not what's happening right now and that bothers me
0:37:47a lot. So that's part of this. The other part of it is in the grand scheme of things what is it that
0:37:57we want these devices that are translating commands to the cloud to do. And for me I feel like the goal
0:38:06here should be like Apple talks a lot now about doing things on device right like we don't send
0:38:11your things in the cloud we don't send you know we're processing your photos on device and coming
0:38:16up with the keywords and doing all the machine analysis like all of these things we do we're
0:38:19doing on device so that you have complete control over it. Okay well you know what would be great is
0:38:27if I spoke words into one of your devices that on device that got translated into text and sent to a
0:38:35server without my audio. But and I appreciate that that might not be as effective in some ways but
0:38:44we need to go there as well because I don't want my audio sent out of my house. I don't.
0:38:50You know bottom line I don't and that is something that Apple needs to deal with and I'm disappointed
0:38:58in Apple here because and maybe there are cultural reasons like I've heard some people say that this
0:39:04may be something that was a part of Siri all along and so it's just sort of allowed to continue to
0:39:09happen but like I look at this and say you got to be better than this and the argument that well of
0:39:15course Apple needs humans to listen to audio even if we accept that to be true okay be transparent
0:39:21about it and legalese is not transparent and let me opt out without a penalty to me or ideally
0:39:30let users opt in to improve the service because they don't care but none of that seems to be
0:39:35happening right now. Yeah and one of the things that the report hinges on a lot is like accidental
0:39:41activations and the fact that you know the problem and I actually think this is the bigger problem
0:39:48I don't care if people are reviewing the questions I asked to Siri. What I care about is when Siri is
0:39:57listening to me and I didn't ask and that data goes to depending on your settings all of these
0:40:04things if they get triggered they get triggered silently and you don't know that it's listening
0:40:09to you until you get like a chime or a I don't know what you said or I don't understand yeah
0:40:16and at that point that audio is is gone it's gone like that's it it's it's it's out of your house
0:40:22and that so you make a good point that one way to one way to do it would be to frame it around
0:40:28accidental activations and saying I don't I want to opt out of sending that information to improve
0:40:33the service because I'm not comfortable with 30 seconds of random room noise from my house being
0:40:39sent to Apple to be processed by a subcontractor who's going to listen to whatever happened in my
0:40:46house and then tell their friends about it because they don't care about the privacy or the
0:40:49confidentiality agreements they signed because it was just a temporary job and etc etc etc. It's like
0:40:54it's too much. It's like you know we are in this world now where like this is this is what's
0:41:00happening to us right and it's kind of like it can be awkward you know and and I talk about a lot of
0:41:05these things of like trade-offs right like privacy is a trade-off in 2019 you know like if you want
0:41:11to use certain products you have to kind of accept a level of you're going to give up your privacy
0:41:16but I never really felt like I had to do that with Apple you know like I felt like that's how I feel
0:41:21with Google that's how I feel with Amazon and I've always kind of felt like there are there are
0:41:27naturally things that they do that people aren't going to like but we just don't know what they are
0:41:31right like I'm talking about Apple like this is one of them right that like there's only they are
0:41:37still going to be doing things that we criticize other companies for because sometimes there are
0:41:41there's only one way to do it and I think it can be a problem for us to just assume that Apple does
0:41:49everything perfectly when it comes to privacy and we shouldn't assume that we will get 100
0:41:57privacy from them just because they act to be better and I think that this is an example of
0:42:03that like this is not a grab your pitchforks go down to Cupertino and start going wild moment
0:42:08right that's not what I'm attempting to say here it's more a case of just like don't assume that
0:42:14Apple are completely perfect at this stuff everybody put your pitchforks down please because
0:42:20they just like they are doing the same things that other companies that you apparently don't like
0:42:26their privacy for do as well because sometimes it's the only way something can be done now there's
0:42:31an argument to be made that well you know Google and Amazon do this and why are why are you holding
0:42:37Apple to a higher standard then this is just how it works with these things and to that I would say
0:42:43this is kind of on Apple I hold them to the standard that they set themselves to me publicly
0:42:48exactly Apple holds itself above its competitors especially Google and Amazon when it comes to
0:42:56privacy period and do they have to do that no they don't have to do that if Apple would like to back
0:43:01down on privacy I guess they could go ahead and do that but if they're not going to do that then
0:43:09this is part of what that entails which is they've got to do better than Amazon and Google not just
0:43:17act at their level if they're going to hold themselves above the competition they gotta
0:43:21they gotta behave like it they've gotta change how they do it and that means for something like Siri
0:43:26they have to say oh boy this is gonna cause problems here and we're gonna have to change
0:43:31this and we're gonna have to do this you have to do it you have to do it if you're gonna if you're
0:43:35gonna if you're gonna put that billboard up if you're gonna say in an ad campaign that privacy
0:43:42is the most important thing on Apple products then you have to when when something like this
0:43:47comes out you have to look at it long and hard and say you're right you know this is not to our
0:43:53standards and Apple's response which was on a Friday afternoon it's perfect timing for Apple
0:43:58right it's like this is when news gets buried and that's when the Guardian posted the story and it
0:44:02got passed around but like Apple needs to do better with their response than what they did
0:44:06which was well you know yeah it happens but we don't we don't link the Apple ID so you can't
0:44:12email the person that you're hearing which is not a great response. All right today's episode is
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0:46:43email inbox under control. Jason I want to talk to you about something that I've seen you tweeting
0:46:52about something that I've seen you very upset about in our Slack which is the security changes
0:47:00in macOS Catalina. Can you give me a breakdown of what is going on from a perspective of what is
0:47:07Apple trying to do and what is the actual result here? Well so I installed the story is that I
0:47:16installed Catalina last week on my main my main drive. I have a duplicate of it as Mojave on an
0:47:31external SSD that's where I am right now but I write about this stuff and I need to live on it
0:47:38because there's a difference between using a pristine beta that's empty of Catalina or any
0:47:45other beta and using it with the apps you use. You won't get the results right you won't actually
0:47:50understand how it works unless you're really properly properly using it. Right exactly so I
0:47:58so this is the idea is is I use that and I learn things about how how Catalina works with my real
0:48:13apps and my real data great. Within you know minutes of doing this what I discovered is
0:48:21things that I knew about because I actually attended the session about Mac security
0:48:28at WWDC and there's a bunch of new stuff in Catalina for Mac security. They changed a lot
0:48:37of things. The you know new Mac developer certificates need notarization to pass through
0:48:46Gatekeeper which is the app that or the piece of the system software that checks to see whether
0:48:51you're allowed to launch an app. All new software requires notarization. Notarization is the system
0:48:56where even if you're outside of the Mac App Store you have to send your app to an Apple server and
0:49:00have them scan it and then approve it and then they cryptographically sign it and send it back
0:49:05to you and the idea there is that it's been approved by Apple in an automated way. Apple
0:49:10systems and is tamper proof now if people make changes to it the signature breaks and therefore
0:49:18it's tamper proof. All existing software before June 1st basically that was built will pass but
0:49:25anything built after June 1st has to pass has to be notarized to pass Gatekeeper and then there's
0:49:32a bunch of specific things that also happen. Gatekeeper is scanning everything regardless
0:49:37of whether it was quarantined or loaded all the malicious stuff can be spotted that way so they
0:49:42cranked everything up on this and they've also added more user consent requests and you may
0:49:50remember some of these from Mojave where like you're you want to use automation or you wanted to
0:49:57use the microphone and you get a thing saying this app needs to use this. It's very iOS like
0:50:02kind of thing. In Catalina screen recording keyboard input monitoring file access to the
0:50:12desktop to documents to iCloud drive to cloud storage to removable volumes to network volumes
0:50:19all of those now require user consent not if the user opens the open dialog box and chooses
0:50:27something because that is implied user consent but if the app wants to scan your desktop folder to see
0:50:33what's there at some point without asking you it now in Catalina it has to ask you. So there's a
0:50:40lot going on here. The motivation is good which is they want to they want to take a system that's
0:50:47open not like iOS and make it safer because they feel like it's a really scary vector for bad
0:50:54software and spyware to get on a Mac if it's not something where more permissions are requested
0:51:02from the user. They want to put up more barriers so that your average Mac user out of the box
0:51:06is more secure which I think is good. The challenge is if you're using older software
0:51:12if you're somebody who is a not a regular user but a bit more of a power user
0:51:20in in those scenarios the out-of-box experience of a Catalina upgrade is at least based on what I see
0:51:27in the beta which I will grant you is a beta it could change and the software that I'm using is
0:51:33largely not updated for Catalina yet and may be modified to not trigger this stuff as much
0:51:39but with all of that preamble I install Catalina and every time I turn around I've got like
0:51:48five dialogue boxes popping up saying can I look at the desktop can I look at documents can I
0:51:54show you notifications I can't launch this app because it might contain malware can I open the
0:52:01desktop can I open the documents and it to me it crosses a line where it feels like my Mac is now
0:52:10actively trying to get in my way and prevent me and judging me and preventing me from doing things
0:52:15I want it to do and the fact that Apple has a dialogue box in the Catalina beta that says
0:52:23basically if something isn't notarized uses the word malicious yeah Apple can't scan this thing
0:52:30for malicious intent and that you have to go to system preferences and and click the lock and put
0:52:35in your password and then click a box that appears to run software that doesn't get Apple's approval
0:52:42is aggressive but that route of going to system preferences to say I want to open this app is not
0:52:48actually shown to the user in any way either you have to work it out on your own yeah well for the
0:52:53for the malicious software warning yes it's you it doesn't tell you where to go because what it
0:52:57wants to do is prevent you this is apps that aren't notarized right like this yeah this is what that
0:53:02is okay yeah so this is a hard challenge they want the Mac to be more secure especially by default
0:53:10and I get it I so I appreciate their security motivations here I feel like they need to be
0:53:19better this isn't me telling Apple it needs to be better again I guess that's a trend today
0:53:23there's Apple needs to be better at how this is presented to the user and when I was complaining
0:53:28about this on Twitter I saw a bunch of suggestions I don't know I mean my gut feeling is that is that
0:53:33the security people are on it for Catalina and maybe they are so on it that the people who are
0:53:39concerned about the user experience are not being empowered to say wait a second
0:53:46your improvement of the security experience on the Mac is degrading the user experience on the Mac
0:53:52it seems to me at least in these betas that that the the balance is way over on the security side
0:53:58and that the bat the user experience is degraded because of it so people on Twitter suggested I saw
0:54:04one suggestion that was very clever that was could you do like a per app permission thing where you
0:54:08could say you know what I trust this app just let it do what it needs to do that that John Gruber
0:54:16mentioned the idea and it's something that I wrote about a little while ago of like a developer mode
0:54:20essentially where as a power user I can go in somewhere and say just let this stuff have access
0:54:27right like I don't care I want I don't want you throwing dialogues up in my face I try lots of
0:54:33stuff that you're not going to like computer let me do it because it's you're my computer let me do
0:54:39it and you know like when I first had a Chromebook I found out very quickly there's a developer mode
0:54:46that turns off a bunch of stuff but like Apple has removed the just let me do whatever option from
0:54:52the security system preferences it's not there anymore it's sort of like Mac App Store only or
0:54:57Mac App Store and verified and that's been the case for I think I think it's in Mojave it might
0:55:02have been even a version before so I can't say no no no I'm cool let me do whatever I also think some
0:55:08of the security um just some of the security measures that they've got here seem a little
0:55:15too much to me um and I get what they want to do here which is say you know what an app shouldn't
0:55:22be able to rifle through your files without you knowing that's what they're saying here when they
0:55:27ask for desktop and documents and iCloud and cloud storage is software shouldn't be able to look at
0:55:33your files without you either giving permission or you picking a file for it I get it and yet as
0:55:42a Mac user for 20 years I kind of feel like if it's apps I installed and apps I ran and it's
0:55:52looking at the desktop or the documents folder that I could not be more clear with what I allow
0:56:03which is if it's my app and that's my desktop I'm okay with it because that's what the desktop is
0:56:10for now I get you know again I get the motivation here but there's a part of me that just thinks
0:56:19get out of my way that the system needs to get out of my way and and if you are really concerned
0:56:24about apps doing bad things by reading the contents of your desktop folder then we need
0:56:31to find another way to to secure a Mac user without making your Mac fight you be and I feel
0:56:37like what Apple has done at least in the beta is they've moved over into what is essentially
0:56:41like a dark pattern where when when they throw up a dialogue box with scare words and don't tell you
0:56:48where you where to go next they say throw out this file they literally it's like you tried to launch
0:56:52an app that's not notarized what we'll tell you is it could be mal malicious and we won't tell you
0:56:58where to go and you should probably throw it in the trash that's it that is an attempt by Apple
0:57:04to degrade the user experience to the point where you give up and just do what they say and for me
0:57:12while I appreciate that maybe as a default behavior that's okay and maybe even a good idea
0:57:18for people who are not advanced computer users to not install malware on their computer and realize
0:57:23what they're doing for me it's unacceptable behavior and then let's go to the other part
0:57:30of this which is okay what about those regular people well if they're getting pummeled with
0:57:33dialog boxes Microsoft learned this lesson with Vista if they're getting pummeled with requests
0:57:38to approve this and approve that and approve this you know what happens they just always say yes
0:57:42and there's no security
0:57:44so what is the situation if you're a Mac App Store app you're great you're a Mac App Store app I
0:57:57think I think you may have to ask permission for certain entitlements anyway but it's a lot easier
0:58:03because you've been approved and checked and and and the App Store apps are a cut above but they
0:58:10may still have to ask for those same permissions it's the idea of like granting full disk access
0:58:15and things like that where and and what seems to be happening here is like desktop and documents
0:58:22are like more granular versions of full disk access that aren't as scary because they don't
0:58:27need the full disk but you know but the goal here is really Apple wants to bring all of the
0:58:33as much of the App Store experience to out of the App Store as possible because they know the Mac
0:58:40App Store is not the only game in town on the Mac unlike on iOS and they said somebody from Apple
0:58:48stood on stage at WWDC and said we're not going to prevent Mac users from launching the software
0:58:53that they want to launch you know so what what what I read that it was like oh well that's good
0:58:59you're not going to like make it impossible for me to launch software that I want to launch
0:59:03turns out what they really meant was we're just going to make it really painful
0:59:06but you can do it but it's not it's not going to be easy we're going to get in your way we're going
0:59:12to shame you we're going to make you guess where you need to go to make it work and then eventually
0:59:16we'll make it work and so as a result you know if for all those rebels who don't want to be in
0:59:22the App Store or or can't be in the App Store because their apps don't fit the guidelines
0:59:26essentially and this is one of these kind of not widely discussed stories essentially if you want
0:59:32to distribute Mac software at this point you have to have a Mac developer account and you have to
0:59:38submit your binary when you're when you do a build and it has to get notarized which means it's being
0:59:43scanned by Apple and if Apple doesn't like it for some reason you know it doesn't get notarized then
0:59:50and that's uh really bad. I think my biggest problem here is that like people will upgrade
0:59:56to Catalina and they will think a bunch of their software is broken. Yes. And and that that's the
1:00:01thing that I think is difficult here. Yeah because the developers are gonna this is one of the
1:00:05reasons I think Mac developers are gonna have to rush to support a lot of this stuff is because
1:00:09otherwise the experience when people launch the apps on Catalina is going to be really
1:00:14really bad but and and again the counter argument here is your if your app is kind of lazy
1:00:23and you know scans the desktop and or scans the documents folder and triggers that warning
1:00:30why are you doing that like why are you scanning the user's disk without
1:00:36giving without checking and the answer may be a very good answer and this is my problem with it
1:00:41is it also from Apple's perspective um they're they're the mal worrying about malware is meaning
1:00:48that apps that are trying to improve the user's experience by scanning their disk now are
1:00:52triggering a security warning. I don't like that either and I don't like the fact that when you
1:00:58open a non-notarized app not only does it say it could be malicious it throws the developer under
1:01:05the bus and says you should contact the developer there's something wrong with them basically is
1:01:10what it says it says you talk to them it's their problem it's not our problem it's it's their
1:01:14problem and I don't like that either because that means that people are going to be complaining
1:01:18and let's pile on one more thing what if you say no what if you say no when it asks for permission
1:01:24to access something guess what that app is going to break in in all likelihood in some spectacularly
1:01:31weird way and that's going to lead to more communications with support for that software
1:01:38developer and now they're going to have to walk you through how to go into system preferences
1:01:42and find the right pain in order to grant access again so that it does work yeah I'm not nobody
1:01:49said this was easy and I appreciate that Apple security people are really trying to make the
1:01:53Mac more secure in a world where the old way of doing computers is being exploited by bad people
1:02:01that's the bottom line is the old computers used to be really really open and it makes it really
1:02:06easy for bad people to exploit them in a way that a mobile device is a lot harder but at the same time
1:02:14the Mac still exists because it's the Mac and it's the old style device and those of us who use it
1:02:21you know otherwise why do we still have the Mac so there's a limit to that there's a limit to that
1:02:26and your computer that you own and that you you should not be aggressively getting in your way
1:02:32and shaming you into not using software you want to use there have and that's that's why I feel like
1:02:40I understand the motivations of Apple security people but whatever is going on in Catalina right
1:02:46now it's not good enough it's and and I hope that by the time Catalina reaches us in the fall
1:02:53it's better and that they're working on this to improve this process because
1:02:59nobody wants a repeat of Windows Vista and if you look at what happened to Microsoft they
1:03:03had to do a whole rethink after Vista because it was too much and it frustrated users and it led
1:03:09to terrible security because users just gave up and approved everything let's uh let's switch
1:03:14gears a little bit talk about the never-ending story of the 16-inch MacBook Pro oh did it get
1:03:20announced okay economic daily news says it is coming in October and it will start at three
1:03:27thousand dollars digitime says in set that it will be launching in September and it will be a bigger
1:03:32screen in the same size as the 15-inch body right they'll put a 16-inch screen into the same size
1:03:37body as the 15 and Ming-chi Roger Kuo is sticking to his guns partly saying that the 16-inch with
1:03:43the new keyboard is still coming in the fall likely October but he has now adjusted uh his
1:03:48prediction about the MacBook Air and the Pro with the keyboard saying that this will be in 2020 that
1:03:54they will get the new keyboard now not this year um but it seems like ever there there's a lot of
1:04:01smoke to suggest that we will still see the 16-inch MacBook Pro this year all the facts of these
1:04:07reports are kind of converging and part of me when I see Ming-chi Kuo say okay maybe not maybe it'll
1:04:15be 2020 for this other stuff um I worry a little bit that it's it's echo chambery where um everybody
1:04:22looked at all the reports and said oh this doesn't make sense and now they're trying to make sense of
1:04:25it I hope that it is refined based on on facts on the ground that this is actually what's happening
1:04:31because it does seem to be converging on the idea that this fall there will be this 16-inch MacBook
1:04:36Pro that's the you know like what happened with the iPad um when you reduce the bezels you can
1:04:42make the screen bigger so it won't be a bigger computer but it'll be a bigger screen and the
1:04:4715-inch what we think of now is the 15-inch size um for for three grand which is I believe the
1:04:55highest sale price for a base model of a of a Mac laptop ever. So what does it say about that?
1:05:04Well I think and I did I wrote about this last week at Macworld um and it took me down an
1:05:11interesting rabbit hole that led to a great conspiracy theory but. Love a conspiracy theory
1:05:15you know I love them. I think Apple really believes that if Pro is on the label it's a it should be a
1:05:22product for professionals and professionals will pay a lot of money for the product that they want
1:05:27and that they need and that that's good for Apple because it allows them to create these amazing
1:05:31cutting-edge products that have lots of expensive components in them and the people who are in those
1:05:36markets where they absolutely need that professional level gear are happy to pay it it's just like the
1:05:40people who are going to be happy to buy that Pro Display XDR because they don't view it as
1:05:46a ridiculously overpriced monitor they view it as a ridiculously underpriced studio monitor which is
1:05:54different perspective right different different industries have different things and what the
1:05:58Apple's approach to the Mac Pro has taught me anyway is there was a time when Power Macs
1:06:05which were the Pro Mac desktop were used by all sorts of people power users not just pros and the
1:06:12iMac was a toy for consumers and that's not true anymore right like if you look at it today the
1:06:18Mac Pro has been redefined as this incredibly high-end system that is for these people who will
1:06:23pay for the super high end and I've got an iMac in front of me I have an iMac Pro but like even
1:06:28the regular iMac is a very very powerful computer most people don't need a pro desktop from Apple
1:06:36right so I look at this 3000 for the the 15 inch or 16 inch MacBook Pro and I think
1:06:42well that's what they're doing they're saying if you want this super awesome system
1:06:48it's going to cost you it's it's three thousand dollars now I imagine it'll come down in price a
1:06:53little bit over time and that there will be a corresponding 14 inch model presumably to replace
1:06:59the 13 inch and that'll happen next year and that'll be cheaper still and there'll be a like
1:07:03a base model of that or maybe that that low-end 13 inch will stick around for a while and eventually
1:07:08be replaced and eventually you won't have three thousand to get into the the MacBook Pro just
1:07:13you know high two thousands to get into the 16 inch MacBook Pro that and that's I think what
1:07:22Apple I'm not trying to make a value judgment here I think that's what Apple wants Apple wants its
1:07:25pro line to really mean it and they're okay if if people who like the idea of using a pro Mac but
1:07:32don't actually need it and aren't really willing to pay the high price for that kind of a product
1:07:39I think they're okay with those those people being turned off a little bit by it the problem is where
1:07:47do they go and that's the other part of this there's like well okay what other laptops are
1:07:53there there's the MacBook Air like literally the consumer laptop if those are pro laptops
1:07:57the consumer laptop is the MacBook Air one model and that yeah so that that's that's weird I feel
1:08:07like they can do this they can play this game again at the high end with the pro but where is
1:08:11that mainstream iMac essentially of consumer laptops and is it the MacBook Air if so the
1:08:18MacBook Air probably needs a little more variety than it has now one model for everybody else and
1:08:23this is where the conspiracy theory comes in I had a moment while I was thinking about this where I
1:08:27thought oh this is where arm happens this is consumer laptops using ARM processors from Apple
1:08:36and that in the long run that may be the definition of what a pro versus a non-pro laptop
1:08:43from Apple is is we've got our light long battery life not super powerful but powerful enough I mean
1:08:50you know the the power that's in the iPad pro is already whatever they said 90 percent of laptops
1:08:56sold last year or something like that it's like it's already pretty good and then if you need
1:09:00more pro we have the Intel pro processors over here for you folks so I can see what they're doing
1:09:08here now there's lots of judgments we can make about like a three thousand dollar laptop and
1:09:12it is this our developers who are the one of the primary pro user groups in the Mac world going to
1:09:20like this I think there's a lot to be debated there but once I thought of it in the context
1:09:26of how Apple treats pro products I had that moment where I'm like oh yeah that's what they're doing
1:09:30here I can subscribe to this conspiracy theory I think I can jump on board of you all right welcome
1:09:36welcome to the conspiracy bandwagon I get it right like I think that Apple have recently realized
1:09:42that they can print money with the pro name and they're doing that now and it's a slice of the
1:09:48market that's willing to pay for the highest end cutting edge most awesome thing with the high
1:09:54profit margins and why make a product why handicap if I'm Apple my argument is why handicap my
1:10:01product why limit my product by making it hit a price point that's lower so that my kind of
1:10:08mid-range customers can buy one when now I'm losing out on having a higher end product that's
1:10:15more profitable and then I can put I can put more high-end expensive stuff into as well and on the
1:10:22desktop that's worked pretty well for them all right today's show is also brought to you by our
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1:12:14show and all of relay FM so we had some summer of fun #askupgradequestions today because we wanted to
1:12:23end on a lighter note after what has been an upsetting episode for everybody so our first
1:12:28question comes from Kate and Kate wants to know Myke what was driving Jeremy's boat like now this
1:12:35is a this is a deep cut here so I'll put a link in the show notes to some Instagram posts from friend
1:12:41of the show Jeremy Burge who is the chief emoji officer at Emojipedia and the creator of world
1:12:50emoji day I usually introduce Jeremy to people that I know as the creator of emoji which frustrates
1:12:59him immensely because that's what people think he actually is a lot of the time I think it's hilarious
1:13:05Jeremy did not create emoji but we all know Jeremy Burge right Emojipedia but anyway Jeremy lives on
1:13:11a narrow boat now and sails the canals in the UK and over the weekend me and my wife Idina we went
1:13:19and we spent some time on the boat and we I drove the boat and it was wonderful Jason boat life is
1:13:24quite a thing it looked great I love those I love the little little boats and the little canals and
1:13:31stuff in England and there's a whole like English boating culture where you just kind of move your
1:13:36boat and then you sleep on your boat and then you go to the pub and you go back to the boat and move
1:13:40the boat again yeah well summary live what a way to live that's part of my summer of fun Casey wants
1:13:46to know do you have any summer music recommendations I don't know do you well I really like the new
1:13:55Taiko album Taiko album Taiko I don't know but it's very chill you know like if you're looking
1:14:00for some chill on your on your summer playlists I recommend that immensely I don't think I have
1:14:08anything that I'm that I'm going to put up for this summer I'd spent a lot of time with Apple
1:14:14music playlists so and I like the alternative genre there's an alternative chill playlist
1:14:22there's a there's the a-list alternative playlist the alt pop playlist is nice for those kind of
1:14:27poppy songs of the summer there's a lot of good stuff in there so I just I just use the Apple
1:14:32music playlist they're great Thomas wants to know what is your favorite beach activity frisbee
1:14:37volleyball surfing something else Jason what's your favorite beach activity reading that's
1:14:44perfectly fine for me my friend and then and then you walk into the water and let the let the the
1:14:50water go on your on your feet and maybe more of your body and you cool off and then you go back
1:14:54out I do often bring a frisbee to the beach I have done that and that's fun too to throw a frisbee
1:15:02around or a nerf football it's another thing it's a American football brain ball American nerf
1:15:08you could use a brain ball but it would get sandy and I'm hoarding the brain balls my favorite beach
1:15:15activity is getting in the ocean I like getting in the ocean yeah it's great if it's my favorite
1:15:19as long as you're at the ocean with that beach Zach wants to know what is your pool side or by
1:15:25the beach beverage of choice oh that's a good question well I would I used to say beer but
1:15:33I can't drink most beer now so that is sad so I'm gonna I have a I'm really liking there's a cider
1:15:41from a place in Oregon that I really like that's a pineapple flavored apple cider pineapple apple
1:15:51cider that's very good it's all about the pineapple mic so that's a that's a good one for me and my
1:15:57classic poolside beverage of choice which I can still do with gluten-free beer is a version of the
1:16:05old British classic the lager top oh lovely where beer and lemonade beer and lemonade but not
1:16:12lemonade like American lemonade like Sprite yes although you know what American lemonade works
1:16:19great too okay okay cool this was this one a funny thing for me the first time one of the first times
1:16:24I came to America when I was of drinking age and I asked for a vodka and lemonade and was very just
1:16:29very confused bartender just very very confused I had no idea that it would be such a problem but it
1:16:34was um I I don't have a specific drink that I like but I like to peruse a cocktail menu if such a
1:16:41thing is available to me at the poolside nice area that I'm at Benjamin wants to know as fellow glasses
1:16:47boys I like that we're all glasses boys how do you enjoy the ocean without losing your frames
1:16:52I take them off I take them off that's right or you lose them that's that both of those things
1:16:58have happened to my vision is not so bad that I can't see without my glasses I can still see with
1:17:03my glasses I can't see very well at all without my glasses but I can I can see well enough to know
1:17:11where I am and which degree the shore is or which direction the shore is I can do that um and so
1:17:18that uh that has to be it I when I have tried to go into the surf with my glasses on you know what
1:17:24happens they the surf comes over my head and knocks my glasses off and then we have to walk around and
1:17:29find my glasses floating in the water all they get like super dirty and you can't see anymore right
1:17:34because the salt exactly water it's so I was actually thinking after our our recent trip to
1:17:39Hawaii that I may actually see about getting some prescription goggles that's a good call
1:17:47so that I can just put those on and go out there and I can still see and also not have my glasses
1:17:53washed off and I might I might do something like that but um by the way backing up one
1:17:58Two Towns Cider House is the name of the company that makes Pacific pineapple so check that out
1:18:04cider people follow-on question from Leafy when it gets really sunny do you rock the shades over
1:18:09glasses look or the shades on contacts look or do you just bear the sun with only glasses
1:18:14Leafy has left out what I think is the best situation it's just to get prescription sunglasses
1:18:19which is what I do I have prescription sunglasses and I have uh sunglass clips that clip on
1:18:26clip ons and therefore I don't need to carry around two pairs of glasses I just have a little
1:18:32little clips I think I've seen the Jason Snell clip on if you've been outside with me in the
1:18:37sun you have I believe I've seen that Brian asked if you could make any piece of tech beach proof
1:18:43what would it be so I took this to be quite literal right like beach proof for me would
1:18:50mean that it is impervious to everything that I would maybe have a problem with at the beach so
1:18:56for example I want to be my iPhone I would want to not get greasy from sun cream and I want to still
1:19:01be able to see it in the sun that's good I feel like we've come a long way with beach proof tech
1:19:07like the Kindle now being on top of everything else it's waterproof so it's basically completely
1:19:14beach proof now and that's great the iPhone water resistant also good but you're right it could be
1:19:20a little bit better and then I had I was in the water with my Apple watch and that was really
1:19:26great because it is fine in the water now so I'm not sure I've got anything air pods maybe I don't
1:19:36know that's about all like I feel like the beach tech situation is pretty decent now all right we
1:19:43have a question from Elizabeth lake or ocean oh ocean ocean right for sure for sure I mean John
1:19:51Syracuse I can make his comments about mud beaches on mud lakes and you know what a mountain lake can
1:19:56be delightful but but the ocean is the best especially if you get a protected like inlet or
1:20:05something but yeah the ocean is is the way to go and we have a question from stay how do you pick
1:20:12the type of vacation that you go on next wow well for for us it is a function of what time of year
1:20:20it is and our you know where have we been recently and do we have a plan and do we have a budget and
1:20:26all of those things so it's a it's a very complicated process and then for me additionally
1:20:31it's how long has it been since we've been to Hawaii because if it's been too long then I just
1:20:35want to go back to Hawaii because that's my favorite place but you know so we'll right now
1:20:42we're doing a bunch of stuff where I'm going to Oregon like six times in five months because
1:20:47my daughter is going to the University of Oregon so we're doing a lot of trips to Oregon and so
1:20:52that's taking up a lot of our travel time and then there are family things Lauren's family especially
1:20:57they often will do family get-togethers and so that's why I was in Idaho in the winter because
1:21:02they did a thing for my father-in-law's birthday I'm hoping to do a big milestone kind of vacation
1:21:10next year so we're talking about that and where that might be and I have a big milestone wedding
1:21:15anniversary coming up in a few weeks and we're trying to figure that one out too so it really is
1:21:19it's an art and not a science and there's a lot of variables so I don't have a method beyond
1:21:25you know you just kind of got to go with it you place and also how long has it been since I've
1:21:30been to Hawaii that's the that's the key consideration yeah ours is just whatever we
1:21:34feel like doing like they say art not a science there was a there was a period where a lot of our
1:21:40vacations got dragged around by events and this I know happens to you too where you you do travel
1:21:45and then you're like oh well if we're gonna go there then I guess that's that's a big thing for
1:21:49us yeah and that can be good it can also get frustrating so like we did those macworld cruises
1:21:54for a bunch of years and it was really great because it was a a cheap cruise because like I
1:22:01was covered because I was speaking on it and all that and that was great the problem was that after
1:22:05a few years of that literally every vacation we took was just determined by where the cruise
1:22:09itinerary was and it was a cruise and you know even for a cheap cruise after you do like four
1:22:16or five of them in a row you think I need to not do this anymore so I prefer having more control
1:22:23over my vacation life but sometimes that happens where like we why did we spend a week in Europe
1:22:30last year or week and a half in Europe last year it was because we were coming to your wedding
1:22:35and so we're like okay well we've got a trip that we're going to let's build a vacation around it
1:22:39and sometimes that happens too which is great last question comes from Noah and Noah asked a
1:22:45wonderful question I'm so pleased somebody asked Jason how is your outside Ikea furniture pillows
1:22:52serving you this summer people may remember Frozone Quest for episode 213 of Upgrade how are
1:22:59they doing they're doing great they're outside right now you can sit on them they provide a
1:23:06cushion and they're they're lovely and when we have have people over we can entertain them and
1:23:13they can sit on the cushions and it's nice I need to buy a couple more and it's one of those things
1:23:19where one of these days I'll go over to Ikea and see if they are selling them but I'm not ordering
1:23:23them online thank you to everybody who sent in a summer of fun hashtag ask upgrade question if you
1:23:30would like to send in and ask an upgrade question which is more regular for next week's episode feel
1:23:35free to do that with the hashtag ask upgrade on twitter and they go into a list for us to pick
1:23:40up on thank you for everybody who sent one in today and who sends them in all the time we really
1:23:44really appreciate it don't forget we're back next week but on Tuesday and we'll be talking about the
1:23:50apple results among many other things let's see if we can make the apple results a summer of fun
1:23:54topic Jason what about that I don't know how we're going to do that yet but maybe I'll think about it
1:23:59the third financial quarter is the most fun summer of financials
1:24:04you can find today's show notes at relays.fm/upgrades/256 I want to thank our sponsors
1:24:12again that is Pingdom, SaneBox and TextExpander for their support of this episode don't forget
1:24:18in case you have forgotten and you want to rectify that we're going to be doing a live show in San
1:24:24Francisco on August 22nd big relay fm live show I'll be there Jason will be there we're working
1:24:30on some stuff we've got some really exciting things going on for that so still got a few
1:24:34tickets left tickets are going to sell out for this we are moving towards it being sold out so
1:24:40if you have been waiting don't wait you can find Jason online at sixcarlo.com the incomparable.com
1:24:45is @jsnell j s n e double l i am @imike i m y k e and we will be back next time
1:24:51until then say goodbye Jason Snow goodbye everybody
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1:25:02(upbeat music)
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